UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan

                          UFO UpDates Mailing List
                                  Jan 1999

  Jan 1:

   Re: Bell Cuts-Off R.A.M. Stephens - Larry Hatch [6]

  Jan 2:

   Re: Korff Spams The News Groups! - Alfred Lehmberg [71]
   Re: FOX Hoax Special - Reaction - Bob Shell [11]
   Re: Cough, Korf, Ahem! - Jim Mortellaro [34]
   Re: FOX Hoax Special - Tent Footage Images - neil morris [13]
   Re: '92 Sighting - Larry Hatch [14]
   Re: Military Ability to Detect & Identify UFOs - Farley Scott [29]
   Re: Bell Cuts-Off R.A.M. Stephens - Lea H. MacDonald [4]
   Re: Bell Cuts-Off R.A.M. Stephens - Tim Matthews [10]
   Re: Bell Cuts-Off R.A.M. Stephens - Tim Matthews [12]
   Re: Cough, Korf, Ahem! - Michael Christol [133]
   Carl and Richard - Doug Paul [15]
   Re: Bell Cuts-Off R.A.M. Stephens - Keith Wyatt [23]
   (1994) NEXRAD Weather Radar Info - Bob Soetebier [174]
   Happy New Year And Thank You For Up With Me Putting - Jim Mortellaro
   [10]
   Australia: UFO Heralds Santa - Stig Agermose [29]
   Fax That Got Stephens Off-Track On Bell? - UFO UpDates - Toronto [184]
   Re: Sherman J. Larsen and Ufology - Gary Alevy [25]
   Re: Sherman J. Larsen and Ufology - Gary Alevy [36]
   Edgar Mitchell Book? - Jack Mayoros [6]
   PRESS RELEASE/Art Bell Censors NASA Contractor - Robert A.M. Stephens
   [81]
   Stephens' Response To Bell - Robert A. M. Stephens [18]
   Re: Bell Cuts-Off R.A.M. Stephens - michael Hodges [5]
   Re: Help Needed - Sean Jones [8]
   New Images Placed On RPIT Site - Neil Morris [25]
   Re: (1994) NEXRAD Weather Radar Info - Bob Soetebier [31]
   Mars Probe To Launch Sunday - Steven L. Wilson Sr [86]
   [Fwd - Stephens] Re: Art Bell show - Robert A.M. Stephens [46]
   Re: Carl and Richard - Roger Evans [14]
   Re: Bell Cuts-Off R.A.M. Stephens - Alfred Lehmberg [20]
   Alfred's Odd Ode #287 - Alfred Lehmberg [75]
   Re: Bell Cuts-Off R.A.M. Stephens - Alfred Lehmberg [26]
   Re: Cough, Korf, Ahem! - Serge Salvaille [20]
   Re: Edgar Mitchell Book? - Sue Koviovs [7]
   Re: Bell Cuts-Off R.A.M. Stephens - Alfred Lehmberg [31]
   Happy New Year To All! - Roy Hale [7]
   Re: Carl and Richard - Roger R. Prokic [8]
   Filer's Files #52 - UFO UpDates - Toronto [400]

  Jan 3:

   In Memorium... Betty Cash - Peter Gersten [56]
   Re: Help Needed - Bob Shell [6]
   Re: Sherman J. Larsen and Ufology - Jerome Clark [3]
   Interesting Images From Mexico - Dan Geib [14]
   Re: Sherman J. Larsen and Ufology - Jerome Clark [80]
   Re: Cough, Korf, Ahem! - Sean Jones [29]
   Re: Stephens & Art Bell Show - James Arthur [52]
   Re: Bell Cuts-Off R.A.M. Stephens - John W. Ratcliff [33]
   Re: Cough, Korf, Ahem! - Bruce Maccabee [16]
   Re: Military Ability to Detect & Identify UFOs - Michael Christol [11]
   Re: Bell Cuts-Off R.A.M. Stephens - Michael Christol [10]
   Re: Sherman J. Larsen and Ufology - Stan Friedman [8]
   UFO Photographed In Australia 11-06-98 - UFO UpDates - Toronto [92]
   Australian UFO Research Network Hot Line Number - Diane Harrison [58]
   Jerry Black's Challenge To Whitley Strieber - Glenn Joyner [411]
   BWW Media Alert 19990103 - BufoCalvin@aol.com [145]
   Re: In Memorium... Betty Cash - Michael Christol [11]
   Re: Cough, Korf, Ahem! - Roger Evans [37]
   Re: Cough, Korf, Ahem! - Michael Christol [15]
   Re: Military Ability to Detect & Identify UFOs - Perry Mick [13]
   'Strange Days...Indeed' - Tonight: Michael J. Woods - UFO UpDates -
   Toronto [23]

  Jan 4:

   Re: Cough, Korf, Ahem! - Michael Christol [108]
   Re: Military Ability to Detect & Identify UFOs - Greg Sandow [3]
   Re: C. B. Moore's '49 Sighting - David Rudiak [378]
   Carbon Nanotubes -- Alien Supermaterial? - David Rudiak [94]
   Re: Sherman J. Larsen and Ufology - Jan Aldrich [61]
   Re: Military Ability to Detect & Identify UFOs - Bob Young [36]
   Re: Military Ability to Detect & Identify UFOs - Jim Mortellaro [29]
   Re: Cough, Korf, Ahem! - Sean Jones [30]
   Re: '92 Sighting - Sharon Kardol [8]
   Conflicts In The Reed 'Alien' Case - UFO UpDates - Toronto [41]
   UFO Reports Acquired From Cincinnati Area - Kenny Young [51]
   Australian UFO Reports - 01-04-99 - Diane Harrison [121]
   Shape Shifting UFO Photographed By Reporter - Kenny Young [7]
   Re: Military Ability to Detect & Identify UFOs - Farley Scott [21]
   Re: C. B. Moore's '49 Sighting - David Rudiak [3]
   Re: Sherman J. Larsen and Ufology - Jerome Clark [16]
   Re: Cough, Korf, Ahem! - Roger Evans [20]
   Hynek and Michel - Jan Aldrich <jan@cyberzone.net [63]
   Quest Magazine - Philip Mantle [36]
   Re: Jerry Black's Challenge To Whitley Strieber - John [48]
   Re: Shape Shifting UFO Photographed By Reporter - James Bond Johnson
   [6]
   Re: 33 Years Ago Today: The Kecksburg, PA UFO Crash - Bob Young [297]
   Robert A.M. Stephens Exposed as a Fraud? - UFO UpDates - Toronto [177]

  Jan 5:

   Stephens Statement: "A Total Fraud In Every Way" - Jeff Rense [57]
   NASA's Stephens Admits to CAUS That He is a Fraud - Peter Gersten [92]
   Rense To Gersten Re: Stephens - Jeff Rense [23]
   Re: Robert A.M. Stephens Exposed as a Fraud? - Sue Kovios [38]
   25 Rules of Disinformation - UFO UpDates - Toronto [175]
   Re: Military Ability to Detect & Identify UFOs - Michael Christol [9]
   Re: Military Ability to Detect & Identify UFOs - Michael Christol [32]
   Re: Military Ability to Detect & Identify UFOs - Michael Christol [11]
   Re: Jerry Black's Challenge To Whitley Strieber - Jim Mortellaro [20]
   Re: Alien Images - Terry Blanton [4]
   Re: Military Ability to Detect & Identify UFOs - Bruce Maccabee [19]
   Re: Jerry Black's Challenge To Whitley Strieber - Bruce Maccabee [81]
   Re: - Ted Viens [8]
   Re: Cough, Korf, Ahem! - Sean Jones [7]
   Re: Help Needed - Sean Jones [15]
   Re: Robert A.M. Stephens Exposed as a Fraud? - Jim Mortellaro [56]
   Re: Stephens Statement: "A Total Fraud" - Roger Evans [8]
   Re: NASA's Stephens Admits to CAUS That He is a - Roger Evans [19]
   Re: - Donnie W. Shevlin [21]
   The Stephens Affair - Jan Aldrich [55]
   High Weirdness in Montana - Scott LeGrand [34]
   Searching For Original Edition Of Bluebook - Ben Field [11]
   UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 4, Number 1 - Joseph Trainor [372]
   Re: Hynek & Michel - Alain Stauffer [15]
   Re: Alien Images - Ralf Zeigermann [5]
   Re: NASA's Stephens Admits to CAUS That He is a - Jerome Clark [6]

  Jan 6:

   'Junk' Or What? - Mikko Viitaniemi [63]
   {98} part 1 - United Kingdom UFO Network - UFO UpDates - Toronto [452]
   {98} part 2 - United Kingdom UFO Network - UFO UpDates - Toronto [455]
   Re: NASA's Stephens Admits to CAUS That He is a - John Velez [22]
   {98} part 3 - United Kingdom UFO Network - UFO UpDates - Toronto [479]
   Re: Alien Images - John Ratcliff [7]
   Re: C. B. Moore's '49 Sighting - Bruce Maccabee [10]
   Re: NASA's Stephens Admits to CAUS That He is a - Sharon Kardol [6]
   Re: The Stephens Affair - Gary Alevy [25]
   Re: Military Ability to Detect & Identify UFOs - Michael Christol [8]
   Art Bell - Friday, January 8/9 - Stephen G. Bassett [28]
   Re: His Numbers Say We're Not Alone - Stig Agermose [88]
   Re: Military Ability to Detect & Identify UFOs - Josh Goldstein [23]
   Re: Robert A.M. Stephens Exposed as a Fraud? - Kevin Randle [37]
   Re: The Stephens Affair - Geri & Alfred Webre [34]
   Re: Art Bell - Friday, January 8/9 - James Bond Johnson [18]
   Loren Gross' Histories - Jan Aldrich [43]
   Re: Hynek & Michel - Bruno Mancusi [12]
   Re: NASA's Stephens Admits to CAUS That He is a - Peter Gersten [41]
   Re: Military Ability to Detect & Identify UFOs - Steven Kaeser [20]
   Re: Military Ability to Detect & Identify UFOs - Terry Blanton [24]
   Re: Archive Footage of J.Allen Hynek? - Philip Mantle [9]
   Re: Art Bell - Friday, January 8/9 - John Velez [79]
   Re: Military Ability to Detect & Identify UFOs - Bill Weber [12]
   Earth Changes TV/Breaking News - Mitch Battros [30]
   Re: Art Bell - Friday, January 8/9 - Greg Sandow [3]

  Jan 7:

   PEER Highlights - Patricia Mason [37]

  Jan 6:

   'Pumpkin Seed' Aircraft - Larry Clark [4]
   Re: The Stephens Affair - John W. Ratcliff [60]
   Re: Stephens Admits to CAUS That He is a Fraud - Michael Christol [5]

  Jan 7:

   Re: Military Ability to Detect & Identify UFOs - Michael Christol [5]

  Jan 6:

   Re: Loren Gross' Histories - Larry Clark [6]

  Jan 7:

   Re: Stephens Statement: "A Total Fraud" - Gary Alevy [3]
   Re: 25 Rules of Disinformation - Gary Alevy [121]
   Re: FOX Hoax Special - Reaction - Gildas Bourdais [60]
   Re: FOX Hoax Special - Reaction - Gildas Bourdais [60]
   Re: Fox TV Special - Gildas Bourdais [46]
   Re: Stephens Statement: "A Total Fraud" - Roger Evans [14]
   Re: NASA's Stephens Admits to CAUS That He is a - Roger Evans [109]
   Re: The Stephens Affair - John Velez [18]
   [CAUS] - Mysterious Signal Update and Finnish Air - Peter Gersten [112]
   Re: Art Bell - Friday, January 8/9 - Stephen G. Bassett [8]
   Re: Art Bell - Friday, January 8/9 - Stephen G. Bassett [10]
   Re: 'Pumpkin Seed' Aircraft - Tim Matthews [10]
   Re: The Stephens Affair - Bob Shell [5]
   Re: FOX Hoax Special - Reaction - Bob Shell [9]
   Re: Fox TV Special - Bob Shell [12]
   Re: 'Pumpkin Seed' Aircraft - Jan Aldrich [12]
   Re: Art Bell - Friday, January 8/9 - Alfred Lehmberg [28]
   Fifth Horseman of the Apocalypse - Jan Aldrich [9]
   Re: Fox TV Special - Jim Deardorff [52]
   Re: NASA's Stephens Admits to CAUS That He is a - Serge Salvaille [20]
   Re: NASA's Stephens Admits to CAUS That He is a - Jim Mortellaro [34]
   Re: Stephens Statement: "A Total Fraud" - Greg Sandow [3]
   Re: Art Bell - Friday, January 8/9 - John [32]

  Jan 8:

   Flying Saucer Gazette is up! - Scott Carr [17]
   Re: 'Pumpkin Seed' Aircraft - Larry Clark [9]
   Re: 'Pumpkin Seed' Aircraft - Larry Clark [5]
   Re: FOX Hoax Special - Reaction - Roger Evans [102]
   Re: 'Pumpkin Seed' Aircraft - Seth Assar [13]
   Re: 25 Rules of Disinformation - Gary Alevy [6]
   Alternative 3/Request for Films - Tim Brigham [27]
   Re: Fox TV Special - Michael Christol [45]
   Re: NASA's Stephens Admits to CAUS That He is a - Sharon Kardol [10]
   Re: Military Ability to Detect & Identify UFOs - Sharon Kardol [7]
   Re: Robert A.M. Stephens Exposed as a Fraud? - Sharon Kardol [13]
   Re: Loren Gross' Histories - Bruce Maccabe [5]
   Re: 'Pumpkin Seed' Aircraft - Tom Benson [11]

  Jan 9:

   Re: FOX Hoax Special - Reaction - Steven W. Kaeser [44]
   Re: 'Pumpkin Seed' Aircraft - Bob Geiger [9]
   Re: Fifth Horseman of the Apocalypse - Marie Ivey [4]
   Re: Fifth Horseman of the Apocalypse - Marie Ivey [4]
   Re: A 'New' New Zealand UFO Book - Diane Harrison [42]
   Re: FOX Hoax Special - Reaction - Gildas Bourdais [39]
   Re: FOX Hoax Special - Reaction - Bob Shell [25]
   Alfred Loedding and the Great Flying Saucer Wave - Jan Aldrich [38]
   The Credibility of Edgar Fouche' - Rebecca Fouche' [48]
   Re: Fox TV Special - Roger Evans [8]
   Re: NASA's Stephens Admits to CAUS That He is a - Roger Evans [17]
   Re: Alternative 3/Request for Films - UFO UpDates - Toronto [24]
   Re: 25 Rules of Disinformation - Roger Evans [36]
   Re: 'Pumpkin Seed' Aircraft - James Easton [42]
   Re: NASA's Stephens Admits to CAUS That He is a - Greg Sandow [29]
   Re: The Credibility of Edgar Fouche' - Tim Matthews [87]
   Re: A 'New' New Zealand UFO Book - Diane Harrison [16]
   Alfred's Odd Ode #288 - Alfred Lehmberg [93]
   Re: FOX Hoax Special - Reaction - Jacques Poulet [11]
   New Contact - Katherine On-Line - Australia - Diane Harrison [14]
   Re: FOX Hoax Special - Reaction - Roger Evans [78]
   Re: FOX Hoax Special - Reaction - moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com [47]
   Re: FOX Hoax Special - Reaction - Roger Evans [46]
   UFO Cults - A research question... - Scott Carr [28]
   Re: Fox TV Special - Michael Christol [7]
   Joe Firmage - Joe Firmage [28]
   Re: Fox TV Special - Roger Evans [13]
   Sightings - Czarnik - Michael Christol [19]
   Space Command Surveillance 'FENCE' Revealed - UFO UpDates - Toronto
   [278]
   Computer Pioneer Quits To Chase UFOs - UFO UpDates - Toronto [99]
   Re: Fox TV Special - Michael Christol [22]
   Re: FOX Hoax Special - Reaction - Gildas Bourdais [19]
   Filer's Files 99-#1 MUFON Skywatch Investigations - George
   FilerMajorstar@AOL.COM [359]
   Re: UFO Cults - A research question... - Tim Brigham - Devil's Advocate
   [29]
   Mysterious Circle Discovered in Miami - Dr. Virgilio Sanchez-Ocejo [12]
   Re: FOX Hoax Special - Reaction - Stan Friedman [11]
   Re: UFO Cults - A research question.. - Tom Carey [7]
   Re: The Credibility of Edgar Fouche' - Serge Salvaille [16]
   ELFIS ISSUE 8 part 2 - Stephen Miles Lewis [34]
   Australia Fears Invasion Of UFO Doomsday Cults - Stig Agermose [71]
   In New Discoveries, a Planetary Mystery - Steven L. Wilson Sr [93]

  Jan 10:

   Re: Joe Firmage - Rebecca Fouche' [22]
   San Francisco Chronicle On Firmage - Stig Agermose [168]
   Re: Fox TV Special - Greg Sandow [8]
   Experts Estimate Galaxy Count - Steven L. Wilson Sr [66]
   Re: 25 Rules of Disinformation - Greg Sandow [67]
   Colin Wilson's 'Alien Dawn' - A Book Review - Stig Agermose [67]
   Re: Fox TV Special - Greg Sandow [26]
   Re: Fox TV Special - Greg Sandow [74]
   HOT GOSSIP UK - JANUARY 1999 - Georgina Bruni [215]
   Re: Colin Wilson's 'Alien Dawn' - A Book Review - Georgina Bruni [17]
   Re: FOX Hoax Special - Reaction - Steven W. Kaeser [34]
   Re: FOX Hoax Special - Reaction - Roger Evans [40]
   Re: Re: The Credibility of Edgar Fouche' - Roger Evans [19]
   Re: - Sharon Kardol [7]
   Re: NASA's Stephens Admits to CAUS That He is a - Sharon Kardol [6]
   Re: Sightings - Czarnik - Ron Decker [13]
   BWW Media Alert 19990110 - BufoCalvin@aol.com [80]
   Re: UFO Cults - A research question... - John W. Ratcliff [66]
   Harmonics of the Earth and the "Beam Ships" - From: Mark Cashman [108]
   Re: FOX Hoax Special - Reaction - Roger Evans [16]
   Re: The Credibility of Edgar Fouche' - Tim Matthews [10]

  Jan 11:

   Re: The Credibility of Edgar Fouche' - Roger Evans [15]
   Re: Fox TV Special - Roger Evans [11]
   Re: UFO Cults - A research question... - Roger Evans [31]
   Re: Fox TV Special - Greg Sandow [26]
   Re: - Patricia Mason [23]
   Re: Fox TV Special - Michael Christol [98]
   Re: Fox TV Special - Michael Christol [67]
   Re: UFO Cults - A research question... - Jerome Clark [17]
   Re: UFO Cults - A research question... - Scott Carr [27]
   Re: Sightings - Czarnik - Michael Christol [12]
   Re: Art Bell - Friday, January 8/9 - Scott Ribordy [8]
   Re: UFO Cults - A research question... - Michael Christol [12]
   Re: Harmonics of the Earth and the "Beam Ships" - Michael Christol [20]
   Re: Fox TV Special - Michael Christol [8]
   Secret USAF 'SETI' Projects? - Stig Agermose [32]
   Re: HOT GOSSIP UK - JANUARY 1999 - James Easton [66]
   Flying Saucers US Patents List - Stig Agermose [177]
   Rhetorical Questionnaire? - John W. Ratcliff [139]
   Re: '92 Sighting / Australia - Larry Hatch [12]
   Re: Australian UFO Reports - 01-11-99 - Diane Harrison [43]

  Jan 12:

   Re: Harmonics of the Earth and the "Beam Ships" - Rick Goldsmith [18]
   Re: The Credibility of Edgar Fouche' - Serge Salvaille [19]
   Re: Art Bell - Friday, January 8/9 - John Velez [28]
   APRO File Microfilm Found! - Jan Aldrich [72]
   Re: Rhetorical Questionnaire? - Marc Bell [6]
   -=[For The Record]=- C.E.: Booms in Butler County, - Kenny Young [71]
   Re: UFO Cults - A research question... - Geri & Alfred Webre [10]
   Re: Fox TV Special - Ed Fouche [82]
   Re: Fox TV Special - Greg Sandow [80]
   FSG on TV! - Scott Carr [23]
   Re: Secret USAF 'SETI' Projects? - Bob Huff [11]
   UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 4, Number 2 - Masinaigan@aol.com [486]
   'Unsubscribed' From CAUS updates - Moderator, UFO UpDates - Toronto
   [11]
   Re: UFO Cults - A research question... - John W. Ratcliff [24]
   Re: Sightings - Czarnik - Rebecca [10]
   Retraction-Apology Required - Jim Dilettoso [34]
   Re: UFO Cults - A research question... - Bruce Maccabee [38]
   Re: Fox TV Special - bruce maccabee [7]
   Re: HOT GOSSIP UK - JANUARY 1999 - James Easton [56]
   BZ - Flying High For the US Army - Lawrie Williams [124]
   Re: UFO Cults - A research question... - John W. Ratcliff [50]
   Re: 'Pumpkin Seed' Aircraft - Josh Goldstein [4]
   Re: - Greg Wilson [44]
   Re: Fox TV Special - Greg Sandow [129]
   UFO Sighting in Italy - Fabrizio Monaco [18]
   APRO Microfilm Questions - Jan Aldrich) [100]
   Watch For My Coming Hoax! - Terry Blanton [15]
   Updated Posting Rules - UFO UpDates - Toronto [67]
   Re: Sightings - Czarnik - Roger Evans [20]
   Re: Fox TV Special - Roger Evans [7]
   Re: UFO Cults - A research question... - Scott Carr [9]
   Re: 'Unsubscribed' From CAUS updates - Roger Evans [13]
   Kal Korff: Be Careful... What goes around, comes - Greg Wilson [44]
   Re: Fox TV Special - Greg Sandow [36]
   Re: Fox TV Special - Greg Sandow [5]
   Re: Ireland Newest Hotspot For Alien Spaceships? - David Gullick [18]
   Kenneth Arnold - Question - Scott Carr [13]
   Re: Fox TV Special - Terry Blanton [4]
   Re: Fox TV Special - Terry Blanton [4]

  Jan 13:

   Re: UFO Cults, A Research Question... - Scott Carr [9]
   Re: UFO Cults - A research question... - John Ratcliff [26]
   Re: 'Unsubscribed' From CAUS updates - Serge Salvaille [8]
   Firmage Book Synopsis - Due 01-15-99 - UFO UpDates - Toronto [24]
   Re: Ireland Newest Hotspot For Alien Spaceships? - Bob Shell [3]
   Re: Fox TV Special - Greg Sandow [3]
   Re: Kenneth Arnold Question #2 - Scott Carr [14]
   What is SPACELINE? - Patricia Mason [77]
   Re: Sightings - Czarnik - Michael Christol [13]
   What is SPACELINE? [More] - Patricia Mason [59]
   Re: Fox TV Special - Michael Christol [17]
   Re: Kenneth Arnold - Question - Gary Alevy [7]
   Re: Fox TV Special - Greg Sandow [18]
   Re: Kenneth Arnold - Question - Kari Valimaa [6]
   Re: Fox TV Special - Michael Christol [28]
   DISPATCH # 114 -- the weekly newsletter of - ParaScope@AOL.COM [118]
   Re: Sightings - Czarnik - Michael Christol [16]
   Fireball Over New Hampshire - Greg St. Pierre [53]
   Re: Art Bell - Friday, January 8/9 - Scott Ribordy [22]
   Re: Fox TV Special - Michael Christol [2]
   Re: Kenneth Arnold - Question - Donald Ledger [3]
   Dilettoso To Korff - Jim Dilettoso [39]
   Official US Air Force 'Roswell Incident' Report - ames Bond Johnson
   [145]
   Re: Rhetorical Questionnaire? - Bruce Maccabee [4]
   Re: Kenneth Arnold - Answer - Kathleen Andersen [6]
   Re: Watch For My Coming Hoax! - Larry Hatch [19]
   Re: Secret USAF 'SETI' Projects? - Stan Friedman [18]
   Re: Sightings - Czarnik - Stan Friedman [5]
   Re: Sightings - Czarnik - Ron Decker [23]
   Re: Sightings - Czarnik - Ron Decker [34]
   Re: Fox TV Special - David Crundall [12]
   Re: Kenneth Arnold - Question - Karl T. Pflock [5]
   Re: Ken Arnold's Call Air & Deltoid Pumpkins - GT McCoy [17]
   Re: Sightings - Czarnik - Steven Kaeser [22]
   Re: Kenneth Arnold Question #2 - David Rudiak [18]
   Re: Fox TV Special - Bruce Maccabee [16]
   Re: Fox TV Special - Terry Blanton [17]
   Re: FSG on TV! - Bruce Maccabee [5]

  Jan 14:

   Re: UFO Sighting in Italy - Mark Cashman [13]
   Re: Sightings - Czarnik - Roger Evans [37]
   BUFORAwatch - Mike Wootten [138]
   Re: Official US Air Force 'Roswell Incident' Report - Steven Kaeser
   [10]
   Re: Official US Air Force 'Roswell Incident' Report - Roger Evans [19]
   New York UFO/Abduction Conference - April '99 - John Velez [74]
   NBC UFO Special Feb 17 Has Own Website - Stig Agermose [3]
   Re: Kenneth Arnold - Question - Donald Ledger [8]
   Re: Art Bell - Friday, January 8/9 - Greg Sandow [13]
   Re: Kenneth Arnold - Question - Gary Alevy [5]
   Re: Official US Air Force 'Roswell Incident' Report - Scott Hale [14]
   Re: UFO Cults - A research question... - Bruce Maccabee [57]
   Re: Sightings - Czarnik - Roger Evans [21]
   Re: Fox TV Special - Greg Sandow [9]
   Re: Fox TV Special - Greg Sandow [43]
   Re: Fox TV Special - Greg Sandow [3]
   Re: Watch For My Coming Hoax! - Michel M. Deschamps [8]
   Military Retirees & Secrecy - Judith Dale [30]
   Re: Sightings - Czarnik - Michael Christol [3]
   Re: Secret USAF 'SETI' Projects? - Bob Shell [17]
   Re: Kenneth Arnold - Question - Roger Evans [8]
   Re: Firmage - Steven W. Kaeser [16]
   Aliens and Memes (was: Re: Art Bell - Friday, - Steven W. Kaeser [20]
   Re: Official US Air Force 'Roswell Incident' Report - UFO UpDates -
   Toronto [27]
   Re: Kenneth Arnold - Question - Kathleen Anderson [6]
   Re: UFO Sighting in Italy - Fabrizio Monaco [9]

  Jan 15:

   Re: Kenneth Arnold - Question - Kari Valimaa [5]
   Re: Watch For My Coming Hoax! - Jeff Westover [9]
   Re: BUFORAwatch - Tim Matthews [65]
   Re: Secret USAF 'SETI' Projects? - Victor Viggiani [23]
   Re: Official US Air Force 'Roswell Incident' Report - Steven W. Kaeser
   [17]
   Re: Military Retirees & Secrecy - Dave Vetterick [14]
   Firmage 1995 - Sue Kovios [27]
   Re: Sightings - Czarnik - Michael Christol [38]
   Re: Sightings - Czarnik - Michael Christol [13]
   Re: Kenneth Arnold - Question - Gary Alevy [15]
   Re: Sightings - Czarnik - Michael Christol [24]
   Re: Fox TV Special - Michael Christol [13]
   Re: Military Retirees & Secrecy - Thiago Ticchetti [10]
   Re: UFO Sighting in Italy - Rob Irving [6]
   The State of Ufology Today - Gary Alevy [132]
   Re: Fox TV Special - Kelly Tyson [5]
   RPIT Test, Jonn Kares - John W. Ratcliff [24]
   Re: 'Pumpkin Seed' Aircraft - GT McCoy [6]
   Re: FOX Hoax Special - Reaction - James Easton [206]
   Re: Art Bell - Friday, January 8/9 - Scott Ribordy [12]
   Lectures explore NASA search for 'cosmic roots' - Keith Wyatt [48]
   'Haunted' Nuclear Power Plant? - Scott Carr [19]
   Re: - Roger Evans [10]
   Re: Watch For My Coming Hoax! - Larry Hatch [13]
   Re: Military Retirees & Secrecy - Roger Evans [37]
   Re: Kenneth Arnold - Question - Roger Evans [17]
   Re: Kenneth Arnold - Question - Gary Alevy [7]
   Re: Official US Air Force 'Roswell Incident' Report - Stan Friedman [3]
   Filer's Files #2-1999 - Moderator, UFO UpDates - Toronto [379]

  Jan 16:

   RPIT Test - John W. Ratcliff [24]
   Re: Military Retirees & Secrecy - Angela Shilling [10]
   Re: UFO Sighting in Italy - Fabrizio Monaco [9]
   Re: Watch for my coming hoax! - David Rudiak [37]
   Chat with Mark Hall, British Ufologist - Yvonne Hedenland [14]
   Circles Phenomenon Research Canada Update 01-15-99 - Paul Anderson [44]
   Re: Art Bell - Friday, January 8/9 - Greg Sandow [9]
   Re: Fox TV Special - Greg Sandow [37]
   Re: Art Bell - Friday, January 8/9 - John Rimmer [7]
   Re: Military Retirees & Secrecy - John Rimmer [21]
   Re: UFO Cults - A research question... - Lawrie Williams [14]
   Re: Official US Air Force 'Roswell Incident' Report - "Steven W.
   Kaeser" [7]
   Re: Fox TV Special - Kelly Tyson [9]
   Alfred's Odd Ode #289 - Alfred Lehmberg [76]
   Re: RPIT Test - Larry Hatch [38]
   Re: Official US Air Force 'Roswell Incident' Report - Bob Shell [9]
   Re: Military Retirees & Secrecy - Kevin Randle [28]
   'The Truth Is Out There & Joe Firmage Is Paying - Stig Agermose [377]
   Re: Military Retirees & Secrecy - Scott LeGrand [41]
   Re: Watch For My Coming Hoax! - Dennis Stacy [34]
   Truth Detracting Elements of the Abduction - Patricia Mason [25]

  Jan 17:

   Re: Official US Air Force 'Roswell Incident' Report - Neil Morris [14]
   April IF Conference Info Webpage Is Up - John Velez [14]
   The Truth - The Kairos [132]
   Project 1947 on Jeff Rense's Sightings - Jan Aldrich [16]
   Santilli's ''Tent Footage': New Revelations - James Easton [174]
   R.A.M.S. - A Parting Shot? - Robert A. M. Stephens [152]
   Re: Military Retirees & Secrecy - John Rimmer [36]
   Re: R.A.M.S. - A Parting Shot? - Robert A. M. Stephens [33]
   Re: Military Retirees & Secrecy - Dave Vetterick [44]
   Re: Truth Detracting Elements of the Abduction - Steve Jones [37]
   Re: Re: R.A.M.S. - A Parting Shot? - "Robert A. M. Stephens" [73]
   Re: Watch for my coming hoax! - Bruce Maccabee [2]
   'Confirmation'? - Bruce Maccabee [12]
   Australian Ufo Reports & Experiences -02-99, #10 - Robert Frola [316]
   Re: Fox TV Special - Michael Christol [8]
   Pilgrimage To Celestial Light Causes Terrible - Stig Agermose [46]
   Re: The State of Ufology Today - Josh Goldstein [26]
   Re: Official US Air Force 'Roswell Incident' Report - Josh Goldstein
   [5]
   Notice For All UFO Researchers - Philip Mantle [12]
   'Tent Footage' Finally Exposed! - Tim Matthews [18]
   BWW Media Alert 19990117 - BufoCalvin@aol.com [67]
   Larry Mauk Contact Info - Patricia Mason [41]
   Re: Military Retirees and Secrecy - Bob Young [15]
   Re: R.A.M.S. - A Parting Shot? - judithdale [23]
   Re: - Jose Escamilla [103]
   'Rods' - On The Learning Channel - Jose Escamilla [102]
   Re: Military Retirees & Secrecy - judithdale [27]
   Re: 'Confirmation'? - Scott Carr [13]
   Re: Military Retirees & Secrecy - Jerome Clark [36]
   Re: Truth Detracting Elements of the Abduction - Ed Stewart [55]

  Jan 18:

   Anchorage phenomena of 1/8/99 - Geri & Alfred Webre [9]
   Re: Truth Detracting Elements of the Abduction - "Tim D. Brigham" [36]
   Re: Confirmation? - Mike Farrell [100]
   Doc Barry August 18, 1927 - January 13, 1999 - UFO UpDates - Toronto
   [99]
   The Order Of the Solar Temple - Tim D. Brigham [32]
   Re: Military Retirees & Secrecy - moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com [35]
   Re: Notice For All UFO Researchers - Larry Hatch [9]
   Re: 25 Rules of Disinformation - Gary [104]
   Re: Military Retirees and Secrecy - Ed Fouche [47]
   Re: Truth Detracting Elements of the Abduction - Michael Christol [59]
   Re: Project 1947 on Jeff Rense's Sightings - John Velez [14]
   Re: R.A.M.S. - A Parting Shot? - Robert A. M. Stephens [58]
   Re: Abductions: Return to the Herd - Leanne Martin [26]
   'UFOs Here in Alice Springs' - UFO UpDates - Toronto [78]
   Re: The Truth About The 'Tent Footage' Hoax - Neil Morris [63]
   Re: Military Retirees and Secrecy - Kevin Randle [3]
   Re: Military Retirees and Secrecy - Bob Young [13]
   Re: 'Rods' - On The Learning Channel - Roger Evans [53]
   Re: The State of Ufology Today - Gary Alevy [101]
   Re: Kenneth Arnold - Question - Gary [8]
   Re: 25 Rules of Disinformation - Roger Evans [32]

  Jan 19:

   Re: 'Rods' - On The Learning Channel - Jose Escamilla [20]
   Re: The State of Ufology Today - Roger Evans [27]
   Re: Kenneth Arnold - Question - Roger Evans [18]
   Re: 25 Rules of Disinformation - Jerome Clark [25]
   Re: The Truth About The 'Tent Footage' Hoax - Bob Shell [11]
   Re: Military Retirees & Secrecy - Dave Vetterick [18]
   Re: The Truth About The 'Tent Footage' Hoax - Bob Shell [10]
   Re: Military Retirees & Secrecy - Dave Vetterick [16]
   Re: Anchorage phenomena of 1/8/99 - judithdale [6]
   Angel Hair, Illness And Weather Modification - "Tim D. Brigham" [15]
   Re: The State of Ufology Today - Jerome Clark [33]
   Re: Military Retirees & Secrecy - Dave Vetterick [17]
   U.K. News: Series On UFOs In The Northwest - Stig Agermose [16]
   Re: Military Retirees and Secrecy - "Stan Friedman" [14]
   UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 4, Number 3 - Joe Trainor [384]
   Re: R.A.M.S. - A Parting Shot? - Robert A. M. Stephens [79]
   Re: Kenneth Arnold - Question - "Ted Viens" [5]
   Re: Santilli's 'Tent Footage': New Revelations - John W. Ratcliff [33]
   Re: The Truth About The 'Tent Footage' Hoax - James Easton [116]
   Re: Military Retirees and Secrecy - Bob Young [7]
   Re: R.A.M.S. - A Parting Shot? - Peter A. Gersten [67]
   And The Truth Shall Set Its Fee... - Jim Mortellaro [71]
   UFO Communication? - Josh Goldstein [14]
   Re: Military Retirees & Secrecy - Roger Evans [17]
   Re: R.A.M.S. - A Parting Shot? - Josh Goldstein [19]
   Re: The Truth About The 'Tent Footage' Hoax - Steven Kaeser [16]
   UpDates Server Brain-Cramp - UFO UpDates - Toronto [4]
   Re: R.A.M.S. - A Parting Shot? - Alfred Lehmberg [21]
   Re: Truth Detracting Elements of the Abduction - Steve Jones [165]
   Re: Military Retirees and Secrecy - Roger Evans [22]
   Doc Barry - Brian Douglas [23]
   Re: 'Rods' - On The Learning Channel - Bruce Maccabee [33]
   Re: Confirmation? - bruce maccabee [20]
   Re: The Order Of the Solar Temple - Rob Irving [8]
   -=[For The Record]=- Mantell - Redux - UFO UpDates - Toronto [89]
   Re: The State of Ufology Today - Real Arsenault [8]
   Re: Military Retirees and Secrecy - Bob Young [23]
   Re: The Order Of the Solar Temple - Bruno Mancusi [7]
   RAMS - Cleanup The Corners - Robert A. M. Stephens [136]
   Re: Military Retirees & Secrecy - Susan Watson [29]
   Re: Military Retirees & Secrecy - Susan Watson [29]

  Jan 20:

   MUFON - Not Playing Fai - Scott Carr [52]
   Re: Military Retirees and Secrecy - Jerome Clark [7]
   RAMS - Gersten To Stephens - Robert A. M. Stephens [18]
   Re: And The Truth Shall Set Its Fee... - Donnie W. Shevlin [16]
   Re: UK UFO Conference - Southport - Mike Wootten [41]
   'Mail On Sunday' - Philip Mantle [13]
   Re: R.A.M.S. - A Parting Shot? - Robert A. M. Stephens [12]
   Re: 'Rods' - On The Learning Channel - Roger Evans [11]
   Re: R.A.M.S. - A Parting Shot? - Robert A. M. Stephens [26]
   Guilt By Association? - Sean Jones [29]
   Re: Truth Detracting Elements of the Abduction - Ed Stewart [73]
   Re: And The Truth Shall Set Its Fee... - Sean Jones [23]
   Re: UFO Communication? - Larry Hatch [29]
   RAMS - Stephens To Gersten - Robert A. M. Stephens [27]
   Re: RAMS - Cleanup The Corners - Roger Evans [17]
   UFO Ballot Initiative Petition - Mike Jamieson [73]
   Re: UFO Communication? - Mark Cashman [62]
   Green Fireball Streaks Over New Hampshire - Stig Agermose [39]
   Re: Electrical Explosion Mistaken For UFO Crash - Stig Agermose [38]
   Re: Military Retirees & Secrecy - Dave Vetterick [42]
   Re: UFO Communication? - Ed Fouche [30]
   Re: Military Retirees & Secrecy - Dave Vetterick [36]
   Re: The Gift Of Gab! - Remy Chevalier [88]
   Joe Burkes, MD says thanks to Doc - Joseph Burkes MD [201]
   Re: RAMS - Cleanup The Corners - Scott Krause [44]
   Confirmation of Robert Stephens - Scot Bowlin [54]
   Re: And The Truth Shall Set Its Fee... - Jim Mortellaro [27]
   Re: And The Truth Shall Set Its Fee... - Jim Mortellaro [22]
   Re: R.A.M.S. - A Parting Shot? - Alfred Lehmberg [20]
   Re: RAMS - Cleanup The Corners - Robert A. M. Stephens [22]
   Re: And The Truth Shall Set Its Fee... - Sharon Kardol [15]
   Re: 'Rods' - On The Learning Channel - Jose Escamilla [67]
   Re: Guilt By Association? - Larry Hatch [3]
   Re: Mother Shipton and Natural Abductions - Lawrie Williams [29]
   Re: Government To Protect Us From Space Creatures - Fabrizio Monaco
   [14]
   Re: UFO Communication? - Cheyne Conrad [9]
   Sightings from Taree to Port Macquarie, Oz - Diane Harrison [51]
   Re: Confirmation of Robert Stephens - Patricia Mason [9]
   Re: Military Retirees & Secrecy - Roger Evans [49]
   Re: Guilt By Association? - Bob Shell [5]
   Re: And The Truth Shall Set Its Fee... - Sean Jones [14]
   Firmage's Manuscript - The Word Is 'Marketing' - Wendy Christensen [56]
   Area 51 - The Alien Interview - Michel M. Deschamps [8]
   Re: Area 51 - The Alien Interview - Moderator, UFO UpDates - Toronto
   [57]
   Sagan On The Pyramids of Elysium, Mars - Kent Steadman [18]

  Jan 21:

   A Book Of 1999? 'UFO Revelation!' - Tim Matthews [34]
   Re: RAMS - Cleanup The Corners - Roger Evans [16]
   Re: UFO Communication? - Bob Young [14]
   Disinformation - John Rimmer [9]
   Re: Guilt By Association? - Roger Evans [32]
   Re: R.A.M.S. - A Parting Shot? - Robert A. M. Stephens [23]
   Re: Military Retirees & Secrecy - "Bob Shell" [12]
   Re: And The Truth Shall Set Its Fee... - Sean Jones [24]
   Re: UFO Communication - Larry Hatch [22]
   Re: R.A.M.S. - A Parting Shot? - Dave Ledger [94]
   Re: 'Rods' - On The Learning Channel - Bruce Maccabee [29]
   Re: Military Retirees & Secrecy - Ed Fouche [4]
   Re: RAMS - Cleanup The Corners - Michael Christol [28]
   Israeli UFO Explosion - It's The Real Thing - Moderator, UFO UpDates -
   Toronto [139]
   Re: Government To Protect Us From Space Creatures - Patricia Mason [37]
   'Military Insider' Claims He Saw Humanoids And - Stig Agermose [96]
   Re: Government Planning To Protect Earth From - Greg St. Pierre [5]
   Re: Government To Protect Us From Space Creatures - Greg St. Pierre
   [22]
   Re: 'Mail On Sunday' - James Easton [112]
   Re: Guilt By Association? - Sharon Kardol [4]
   Re: UFO Communication? - Jim Mortellaro [51]
   Oppenheimer & Einstien - 'New' MJ-12 Doc - Bruce Maccabee [555]
   Re: Guilt By Association? - Rebecca Schatte [19]
   Re: UFO Communication? - R=E9al Arsenault [33]
   What's The Point? - A Rant - John W. Ratcliff [62]
   Re: The State of Ufology Today - Jim Bouck [16]
   Re: Firmage's Manuscript - The Word Is 'Marketing' - Jim Mortellaro
   [25]
   Re: Guilt By Association? - John Velez [14]
   Underwater UFO Phenomenon? - Sefer Murat Aksoy [12]
   Re: Guilt By Association? - Philip Mantle - UFO [6]
   Press Releases - Philip Mantle - UFO [32]
   Exotic Propulsion Technology Testing In Canada? - Dan Geib [12]
   Taking the Heat Out Of 'The Heat' - Roy Hale [32]
   Re: Military Retirees & Secrecy - Roger Evans [58]
   Re: R.A.M.S. - A Parting Shot? - Alfred Lehmberg [49]
   Re: UFO Communication? - Mark Cashman [23]
   Re: Military Retirees & Secrecy - Bob Shell [24]
   Ziff-Davis TV: Friday Chat With Firmage - Stig Agermose [42]
   Re: The State of Ufology Today - Larry Clark [8]

  Jan 22:

   Filer's Files #3-1999 - George A. Filer [372]
   Re: Guilt By Association? - Larry Hatch [13]
   Re: Military Retirees & Secrecy - Neil Morris [21]
   Re: Taking the Heat Out Of 'The Heat' - John Rimmer [2]
   Re: Astronomers Get Ready To Call E.T. - Stig Agermose [99]
   Re: R.A.M.S. - A Parting Shot? - Robert A. M. Stephens [74]
   Re: Guilt By Association? - Roger Evans [40]
   Re: RAMS - Cleanup The Corners - Robert A. M. Stephens [23]
   Italian Hot Line - Fabrizio Monaco [8]
   Re: Government To Protect Us From Space Creatures - Roger Evans [11]
   Re: And The Truth Shall Set Its Fee... - Sharon Kardol [4]
   Hoagland Responds To RAMS - Robert A. M. Stephens [17]
   Santilli Knew 'Tent Footage' Was a Fraud? - James Easton [241]
   Re: What's the point? A rant - John W. Ratcliff" [87]
   CAUS 1/22/98 Press Release - Stephen G. Bassett [59]
   A Little Virtue For A Maddening Situation (R.A.M.S) - Scott Krause [21]
   Re: Stunning Photo Of Craft Over Groom Lake - UFO UpDates - Toronto
   [15]
   Stunning Photo Of Craft Over Groom Lake - UFO UpDates - Toronto [15]
   Re: What's The Point? - A Rant - Leanne Martin [56]
   BUFORA Watch - The Wall of Silence - Mike Wootten [210]
   Military Retirees & Secrecy - Roger Evans [25]
   Re: Santilli Knew 'Tent Footage' Was a Fraud? - Roger Evans [28]
   Keeping Secrets - GT McCoy [24]
   Re: Confirmation of Robert Stephens - Roger R. Prokic [21]
   Re: Military Retirees & Secrecy - Bob Shell" [10]
   Re: Military Retirees & Secrecy - Bob Shell [10]
   Re: Santilli Knew 'Tent Footage' Was a Fraud? - Bob Shell [7]
   Re: Guilt By Association? - Gildas Bourdais [17]
   HG Wells 'War of the Worlds' - 100 Year Influence - Ed Stewart [18]
   Re: UFO Communication? - Brian Straight [4]
   Strange Goings-On At Roswell International Museum - UFO UpDates -
   Toronto [58]

  Jan 23:

   Re: What's The Point? - A Rant - Jim Mortellaro [90]
   Re: Good Puzzle - Daev Walsh - Blather [157]
   Re: BUFORA Watch - The Wall of Silence - Stephen Mera [13]
   Alex Collier (Andromedan 'Contactee') - Exposed? - Bob Soetebier [30]
   Re: Military Retirees & Secrecy - Roger Evans [35]
   Re: What's The Point? - A Rant - Roger Evans [13]
   Re: UFO Communication? - Roy Hale [17]
   A Tale from Africa - Roy Hale [17]

  Jan 24:

   'Sorry, We'll Be Late' - Bob Young [60]
   Re: Santilli Knew 'Tent Footage' Was a Fraud? - Dennis Stacy [6]
   Re: UFO Communication? - Rick Goldsmith [26]
   Ziff-Davis TV: Friday's Chat With Firmage - Sue Kovios [4]
   Sighting - Bollon near St George Qld, Australia - Diane Harrison [57]
   Re: Santilli Knew 'Tent Footage' Was a Fraud? - Larry Hatch [29]
   Re: UFO Communication? - Larry Hatch [16]
   Alfred's Odd Ode #290 - Alfred Lehmberg [95]
   Re: R.A.M.S. - A Parting Shot? - Dave Ledger [116]
   Keeping Secrets - Jim Mortellaro [25]
   BUFORA WATCH - Council Member Resigns Over Wall of - Mike Wootten [37]
   'Killer Asteroids And Risks That Matter' - Bob Soetebier [3]
   Re: A Tale from Africa - Lesley Cluff [12]
   'Eprime' In Action - John W. Ratcliff [121]
   Re: A Tale from Africa - John Velez [32]
   Re: Santilli Knew 'Tent Footage' Was a Fraud? - Steven W. Kaeser [12]
   The State of Ufology Yesterday - Gary Alevy [117]
   Re: Santilli Knew 'Tent Footage' Was a Fraud? - From: Greg St. Pierre
   [31]
   Who Knew? - Greg St. Pierre [16]
   Upgrade (1\20\99) to Oberg/Cooper Website - Jerry Cohen [40]
   Montana UFO Caught on Video - Ian Darlington [16]
   Re: Santilli Knew 'Tent Footage' Was a Fraud? - Bob Shell [6]

  Jan 25:

   Firmage: Statement Regarding Stephens-Hoagland - Joe Firmage [91]
   RAMS - The '200 Questions' For Hoagland - Robert A.M. Stephens [695]
   PROJECT GUFONE Search - Mike Farrell [149]
   Re: Santilli Knew 'Tent Footage' Was a Fraud? - Roger Evans [41]
   Re: A Tale from Africa - Brian Cuthbertson [10]
   Night Visitors - GT McCoy [13]
   Re: 'Eprime' In Action - Jeff Rense [44]
   BWW Media Alert 19990124 - BufoCalvin [90]
   Re: R.A.M.S. - A Parting Shot? - Roger Evans [14]
   Skeptic's Address @ UpDates Archive - Garrison L. Hilliard [14]
   Re: Who Knew? - Roger Evans [27]
   Re: A Tale from Africa - Scott Carr [10]
   Roger's Rhyme #1 - Roger Evans [81]
   Satellite Tracking Reference - Brian Cuthbertson [42]
   Re: Santilli Knew 'Tent Footage' Was a Fraud? - Larry Hatch [4]
   Santilli's Film Scraps - Nick Balaskas [20]
   UFO*BC Website Update - David Pengilly - UFO*BC [32]
   Re: 'Osiris's Grave' Detected Near Sphinx By - Stig Agermose [5]
   Re: Keeping Secrets - Bob Young [24]
   Re: 'Eprime' In Action - Jim Mortellaro [37]
   Re: Area 51 - The Alien Interview - Michel M. Deschamps [8]
   Re: Angel Hair, Illness And Weather Modification - Christophe Meessen
   [35]
   Re: Firmage: Statement Regarding Stephens-Hoagland - Judith Dale [50]
   Re: UFO Communication? - Brian Straight [16]
   Global Crisis Solutions - Philip Mantle [45]
   Re: Firmage: Statement Regarding Stephens-Hoagland - Roger Evans [6]
   Re: PROJECT GUFONE Search - Marc Bell [7]
   Re: Santilli Knew 'Tent Footage' Was a Fraud? - Bob Shell [15]
   Re: Santilli's Film Scraps - Roger Evans [22]
   Stephens-Firmage - Jeff Rense [15]
   Re: Area 51 - The Alien Interview - Steven Kaeser [10]
   Re: Strange Goings-On At Roswell International - Moderator, UFO UpDates
   - Toronto [203]
   -=[For The Record]=- P-47: Greenwood On MJ-12 - Jan Aldrich [38]
   Re: Santilli Knew 'Tent Footage' Was a Fraud? - Bob Shell [3]
   Re: Keeping Secrets - Roger Evans [35]
   Re: Santilli's Film Scraps - Bob Shell [5]
   Re: Keeping Secrets - Scott Carr [23]
   Re: Santilli Knew 'Tent Footage' Was a Fraud? - Dennis [19]
   Re: 'Eprime' In Action - John Ratcliffe [15]
   New Alleged MJ-12 Papers Also Shown To Be - Ed Stewart [42]
   Re: Santilli Knew 'Tent Footage' Was a Fraud? - Roger Evans [25]
   Re: Keeping Secrets - Jim Mortellaro [30]
   Professional Status of Richard Hoagland - Scott LeGrand [8]
   Anyone Heard Of The 'J-Track Link'? - John Hayes [16]
   'Osiris's Grave' Detected Near Sphinx By Hawass - Stig Agermose [40]
   UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 4, Number 4 - Joe Trainor [349]
   Open Letter To Art Bell - Barbara Sagan [14]
   Re: Strange Goings-On At Roswell International - John Hayes [33]
   Re: Keeping Secrets - Jim Mortellaro [4]
   Re: Stephens-Firmage - Alfred Lehmberg [32]

  Jan 26:

   Re: Underwater UFO Phenomenon? - Leanne Martin [27]
   Re: UFO Communication? - Rick Goldsmith [34]
   1999 UFO Alien Abduction Conference Announced - Stig Agermose [76]
   Re: What's The Point? - A Rant - Leanne Martin [5]
   Spanish 'Anomaly Foundation' Rewards UFO - Stig Agermose [61]
   Re: Santilli Knew 'Tent Footage' Was a Fraud? - Steven W. Kaeser [18]
   Re: Keeping Secrets - Roger Evans [26]
   Re: Santilli's Film Scraps - GT McCoy [15]
   Re: Anyone Heard Of The 'J-Track Link'? - Dave Bethke [6]
   Re: Greenwood on MJ-12 - Ryan S. Wood [45]
   Re: A Tale from Africa - George Filer [13]
   Re: Anyone Heard Of The 'J-Track Link'? - Jacquie Cosford [5]
   Re: Keeping Secrets - Bob Young [39]
   Re: Big Al And The Grape Truck - Jim Mortellaro [5]
   Re: Anyone Heard Of The 'J-Track Link'? - John Hayes [10]
   Re: Santilli Knew 'Tent Footage' Was a Fraud? - Larry Hatch [7]
   Big Al And The Grape Truck - UFO UpDates - Toronto [12]
   Re: Underwater UFO Phenomenon? - Roger Evans [36]
   Re: Santilli Knew 'Tent Footage' Was a Fraud? - Roger Evans [15]
   Re: Santilli Knew 'Tent Footage' Was a Fraud? - Bob Shell [35]
   Re: UFO Communication? - Brian Straight [12]
   Re: Santilli Knew 'Tent Footage' Was a Fraud? - Bob Shell [22]
   Re: Santilli's Film Scraps - Steven Kaeser [20]
   Re: Greenwood on MJ-12 - Steven Kaeser [29]
   Re: Keeping Secrets - Jim Mortellaro [20]
   Internet Explorer and FUFOR's FBI/NSA FOIA CD-ROM - Steven Kaeser [52]
   RAMS: Re: NASA The Lies - "Robert A.M. Stephens" [229]
   Re: A Tale from Africa - Ed Stewart [63]
   Looking Back At 50 Years Of Ufology - Anthony Chippendale [25]
   Re: Santilli Knew 'Tent Footage' Was a Fraud? - Roger Evans [14]
   Re: Big Al And The Grape Truck - Alfred Lehmberg [27]
   Re: 1999 UFO Alien Abduction Conference Announced - John [17]
   Re: Keeping Secrets - Bob Young [7]
   Re: Keeping Secrets - Roger Evans [46]
   Re: Keeping Secrets - Jerome Clark [11]
   Re: MJ-12 Documents - Same MO Then As Now - Ed Stewart [29]

  Jan 27:

   Re: UFO Communication? - Real Arsenault [14]
   08-07-96: MJ-12 - An Estimate of the Situation - Ed Stewart [394]
   08-08-96: MJ-12 - As Published In The UFO Press - Ed Stewart [400]
   08-12-96: MJ-12 - An Estimate of the Situation - Ed Stewart [521]
   Re: UFO Communication? - Rick Goldsmith [21]
   Betty Hill? - Joseph Trainor [6]
   Re: Roger's Rhyme #1 - Scott Caput [9]
   Re: Keeping Secrets - Roger Evans [22]
   'Mind-Body Problem' - Stig Agermose [180]
   Re: 1999 UFO Alien Abduction Conference Announced - Kevin Randle [15]
   08-12-96: MJ-12 - An Estimate of the Situation - Ed Stewart [245]
   Re: Santilli Knew 'Tent Footage' Was a Fraud? - James Easton [212]
   Re: 200 Questions-Remember Bennewitz! - Mike Farrell [115]
   Re: A Tale from Africa - Leanne Martin [11]
   Flying Discs: A Poetic View - Stig Agermose [374]
   Re: Underwater UFO Phenomenon? - Leanne Martin [24]
   Re: 25 Rules of Disinformation - Greg Sandow [33]
   Re: RAMS: NASA The Lies - Leanne Martin [6]
   NASA Website - Judith Dale [33]
   Open Letter To Iur Readers - Tim Matthews [242]
   Re: Roger's Rhyme #1 - Alfred Lehmberg [16]
   Re: Roger's Rhyme #1 - Alfred Lehmberg [16]
   Re: Santilli's Film Scraps - Bob Shell [17]
   Re: UFO Communication? - Larry Hatch [8]
   Re: Santilli Knew 'Tent Footage' Was a Fraud? - Bob Shell [16]
   Re: Santilli Knew 'Tent Footage' Was a Fraud? - Bob Shell [2]
   Re: Santilli Knew 'Tent Footage' Was a Fraud? - Joachim Koch [41]
   Re: 1999 UFO Alien Abduction Conference Announced - Jerome Clark [19]
   Re: Santilli Knew 'Tent Footage' Was a Fraud? - Roger Evans [65]
   Chat with Stephen Bassett - Yvonne Hedenland [15]
   Re: Greenwood on MJ-12 - Jan Aldrich [148]
   Re: Looking Back At 50 Years Of Ufology - Mark Cashman [118]
   Re: Santilli's Film Scraps - Nick Balaskas [22]
   Re: 200 Questions-Remember Bennewitz! - Dave Ledger [23]
   CUFORG Web Site Update - Ian Darlington [16]
   Re: Taking the Heat Out Of 'The Heat' - Tony Spurrier [22]
   One of Santilli's Statements circa July 1995 - Neil Morris [75]
   Re: Open Letter To IUR Readers - Wendy Connors [63]

  Jan 28:

   Deficiency In SETI's Drake's Equation - Jim Deardorff [86]
   Re: 200 Questions-Remember Bennewitz! - Roger R. Prokic [18]
   Re: Santilli Knew 'Tent Footage' Was a Fraud? -
   moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com [14]
   Re: 1999 UFO Alien Abduction Conference Announced - Jim Mortellaro [22]
   Re: 1999 UFO Alien Abduction Conference Announced - Rebecca Keith [9]
   Re: Greenwood on MJ-12 - Corrections - Jan Aldrich [18]
   Re: 1999 UFO Alien Abduction Conference Announced - John Velez [31]
   Re: 1999 UFO Alien Abduction Conference Announced - Greg Sandow [19]
   Re: 1999 UFO Alien Abduction Conference Announced - Kevin Randle [33]
   Re: RAMS: NASA The Lies - Jim Mortellaro [30]
   Re: Area 51 - The Alien Interview - Michel M. Deschamps [17]
   Re: A Tale from Africa - Jim Mortellaro [12]
   Missing CIA Documents on www.foia.ucia.gov - Ed Fouche [55]
   Re: Open Letter To IUR Readers - Tim Matthews [21]
   Re: 200 Questions-Remember Bennewitz! - Alfred Lehmberg [33]
   MJ-12 documents & The Norfolk Regiment Tale - William Chalker [50]
   Re: Deficiency In SETI's Drake's Equation - Alfred Lehmberg [21]
   Re: Santilli Knew 'Tent Footage' Was a Fraud? - Bob Shell [20]
   Re: Santilli Knew 'Tent Footage' Was a Fraud? - Bob Shell [8]
   Re: Santilli's Film Scraps - Bob Shell [22]
   Re: Missing CIA Documents on www.foia.ucia.gov - Steven Kaeser [14]
   Re: Santilli Knew 'Tent Footage' Was a Fraud? - Rob Irving [13]
   Re: 1999 UFO Alien Abduction Conference Announced - Kevin Randle [17]
   Re: 1999 UFO Alien Abduction Conference Announced - Roger Evans [8]
   Re: Santilli Knew 'Tent Footage' Was a Fraud? - Bob Shell [3]
   Re: 1999 UFO Alien Abduction Conference Announced - Kevin Randle [44]
   Re: 1999 UFO Alien Abduction Conference Announced - Kevin Randle [8]
   Re: 200 Questions-Remember Bennewitz! - Jim Mortellaro [23]
   Re: 1999 UFO Alien Abduction Conference Announced - Kevin Randle [11]
   Re: Deficiency In SETI's Drake's Equation - Ed Stewart [16]
   UHR on MJ-12 - Jan Aldrich [54]
   Re: 1999 UFO Alien Abduction Conference Announced - Jerome Clark [53]
   Re: Deficiency In SETI's Drake's Equation - Ed Stewart [17]
   Re: Deficiency In SETI's Drake's Equation - Ed Stewart [17]
   Re: Missing CIA Documents On www.foia.ucia.gov - Remo Ponti [12]
   Re: 1999 UFO Alien Abduction Conference Announced - Jim Mortellaro [21]
   Re: Taking the Heat Out Of 'The Heat' - Roy Hale [74]

  Jan 29:

   -=[For The Record]=- STS-80 NASA Footage - Skywatch International Inc.
   <skywatch@ltlb.com [28]
   Re: A Little Virtue For A Maddening Situation - Leanne Martin [6]
   Re: Professional Status of Richard Hoagland - Dennis Stacy [31]
   Re: 1999 UFO Alien Abduction Conference Announced - John [39]
   Re: 1999 UFO Alien Abduction Conference Announced - Rebecca Keith [31]
   Re: Missing CIA Documents on www.foia.ucia.gov - Scott Hale [8]
   Re: MJ-12 documents & The Norfolk Regiment Tale - Ed Stewart [39]
   Re: Santilli Knew 'Tent Footage' Was a Fraud? - Roger Evans [41]
   Re: 1999 UFO Alien Abduction Conference Announced - Sean Jones [9]
   Re: 1999 UFO Alien Abduction Conference Announced - Serge Salvaille
   [18]
   Re: Deficiency In SETI's Drake's Equation - Jim Deardorff [13]
   Re: 1999 UFO Alien Abduction Conference Announced - Kevin Randle [54]
   Re: Taking the Heat Out Of 'The Heat' - Tony Spurrier [44]
   Re: 1999 UFO Alien Abduction Conference Announced - Alain Stauffer [20]
   Re: Keeping Secrets - Ted Viens [14]
   Re: Open Letter To Art Bell - Ted Viens [17]
   Jim Dilettoso: Retraction-Apology Required from - Jim Dilettoso [34]
   Abduction Hypotheses [was: 1999 UFO Alien - John W. Ratcliff [69]
   Re: 1999 UFO Alien Abduction Conference Announced - Ted Viens [16]
   Re: Deficiency In SETI's Drake's Equation - Alfred Lehmberg [19]
   Abduction - The Issue Of Reality [was... 1999 UFO - Jim Mortellaro [59]
   Re: Santilli Knew 'Tent Footage' Was a Fraud? - Bob Shell [7]
   Re: 1999 UFO Alien Abduction Conference Announced - Roger Evans [4]
   Roswell 1999 - Renewed Perspective? - Terry Blanton [541]
   Re: 1999 UFO Alien Abduction Conference Announced - Kevin Randle [46]
   Re: 1999 UFO Alien Abduction Conference Announced - Jerome Clark [15]
   Re: 1999 UFO Alien Abduction Conference Announced - Jerome Clark [15]
   Re: 1999 UFO Alien Abduction Conference Announced - Greg Sandow [7]
   Abduction - The Issue Of Reality [was: 1999 UFO - Greg Sandow [20]
   Re: Santilli Knew 'Tent Footage' Was a Fraud? - Roger Evans [22]
   Re: Deficiency In SETI's Drake's Equation - Ed Stewart [37]

  Jan 30:

   Re: Professional Status of Richard Hoagland - Dan Syes [6]
   Re: 1999 UFO Alien Abduction Conference Announced - Kevin Randle [13]
   Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality [was: 1999 - Kevin Randle [24]
   Re: Santilli Knew 'Tent Footage' Was a Fraud? - Bob Shell [17]
   Researchers Study New Mexico, Mars - Steven L. Wilson Sr [60]
   Re: Sandow: UFO Research Teeters Between Science - Sean Jones [8]
   Re: Abduction Hypotheses - Kevin Randle KRandle993@aol.com> [29]
   'Apocalypse Pretty Soon' - Alex Heard [28]
   Re: Santilli Knew 'Tent Footage' Was a Fraud? - Ralf Zeigermann [9]
   Re: Santilli's Film Scraps - Gildas Bourdais [30]
   Re: Abduction Hypotheses - Sean Jones [13]
   Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality - Sean Jones [27]
   Re: Deficiency In SETI's Drake's Equation - Jim Deardorff [31]
   Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality - John Rimmer [8]
   Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality - Rebecca Keith [20]
   Russian Plasma Steath? - Stig Agermose [84]
   {99} Part 1 United Kingdom UFO Network - Sean Jones [428]
   {99} Part 2 United Kingdom UFO Network - Sean Jones [346]
   {99} Part 3 United Kingdom UFO Network - Sean Jones [195]
   Re: Abduction Hypotheses - Leanne Martin [10]
   Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality - Leanne Martin [14]
   UFO TV Program On Channel 4 (UK) Next Monday - Stig Agermose [75]
   Re: -=[For The Record]=- STS-80 NASA Footage - Leanne Martin [8]
   Re: Roswell 1999 - Renewed Perspective? - Kevin Randle [16]
   TASS Story On Russian Plasma Stealth Confirmed - Stig Agermose [22]
   UFOMIND: Getting closer to Element 115 [news] - Stig Agermose [49]
   Re: 1999 UFO Alien Abduction Conference Announced - Dennis Stacy [15]
   Martian Chronicle - Stig Agermose [519]
   Filer's Files #4-1999 - Moderator UFO UpDates [393]
   Levengood To Look At Travis' Trees - Stig Agermose [22]
   Majestic-12 Follies Returns (Barry Greenwood) - Ed Stewart [592]
   Re: Deficiency In SETI's Drake's Equation - David Rudiak [115]
   Blather: Ancient Irish Astronauts - Daev Walsh [147]
   Re: 1999 UFO Alien Abduction Conference Announced - John Velez [143]
   Alfred's Odd Ode #291 - Alfred Lehmberg [83]
   Hearing On U.S. Spacepower In The 21St Century - Patricia Mason [220]
   BAR 199901 - Buffo Calvin BufoCalvin@aol.com [123]
   Latest Flying Saucer Review Out Now - Ed Stewart [42]
   Some Science Reporting Misleading - UPI Science - Ed Stewart [123]
   Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality - Serge Salvaille [43]
   Re: Professional Status of Richard Hoagland - Dennis Stacy [6]
   Posting Practices - UFO UpDates - Toronto [64]
   HOT GOSSIP UK - News Flash - Georgina Bruni [28]
   Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality - Peter Brookesmith Mendoza [68]
   Re: Abduction Hypotheses - John W. Ratcliff [62]
   Re: Russian Plasma Stealth? - Stan Friedman [6]
   Re: Apocalypse Pretty Soon - Larry Hatch [18]
   Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality - Jim Mortellaro [29]
   Re: 'Sorry, We'll Be Late' - Nick Balaskas [35]
   Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality - Greg Sandow [82]
   Re: MJ-12 - An Estimate of the Situation - Ed Fouche [61]
   Re: Apocalypse Pretty Soon - Alex Heard [11]

  Jan 31:

   Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality - Greg Sandow [48]
   Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality - Bill Weber [16]
   Re: 'Apocalypse Pretty Soon' - Bob Soetebier [33]
   Anagrams - Sue Kovios [53]
   Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality - Greg Sandow [10]
   Re: ET Call Earth - Stig Agermose [114]
   Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality - Dennis Stacy [58]
   Search Is On For Alien Laser Signals - Stig Agermose [22]
   Re: Deficiency In SETI's Drake's Equation - Jim Deardorff [52]
   Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality - Greg Sandow [34]
   Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality - John Velez [102]
   New 'Flying Triangle' Sightings in North West (UK) - Tim Matthews [66]
   Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality - Kevin Randle [95]
   Re: 1999 UFO Alien Abduction Conference Announced - Kevin Randle [21]
   Re: Santilli's Film Scraps - Bob Shell [8]
   'Clinton'? On 'The Base That Doesn't Exist' - Ignatius Graffeo [36]
   Re: Santilli Knew 'Tent Footage' Was a Fraud? - Roger Evans [32]
   Re: 'Apocalypse Pretty Soon' - Mark Cashman [40]
   Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality - Rebecca Keith [36]
   Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality - Rebecca [25]
   Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality - Rebecca [10]
   MAGONIA Monthly Supplement No. 11 January 1999 - Mark Pilkington [316]
   Re: 'Apocalypse Pretty Soon' - "Jerome Clark" [6]
   Re: Apocalypse Pretty Soon - Larry Hatch [9]
   Re: Abduction Hypotheses - Sean Jones [34]

   The number enclosed in brackets is the number of lines of new text in





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 1

                      Re: Bell Cuts-Off R.A.M. Stephens

From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net>
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1998 09:38:50 -0800
Fwd Date: Fri, 01 Jan 1999 23:56:31 -0500
Subject: Re: Bell Cuts-Off R.A.M. Stephens


>Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1998 02:28:00 +0000
>From: Robert A. M. Stephens <sti3818@montana.com>
>To: <updates@globalserve.net>,
>Subject: They Cut Off Robert!

>[http://ww2.broadcast.com/artbell/archive98.html#dec98 --ebk]

>Art Bell and Richard Hoagland cut me off at 2:04am MST ON
>12-31-1998 when I asked Art to ask me questions from Richard
>since Richard was incoherent and would not ask me any more
>questions.


Dear Sir(s):

Do not feel alone.

However, if you were cut off by Art Bell, one must ask why you
were trying to get on in the first place.

Good evening Sir(s)

-  Larry Hatch


=  =  =  =  =  =  =  =  =  =  =  =






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 2

                      Re: Korff Spams The News Groups!

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1998 11:44:50 -0600
Fwd Date: Sat, 02 Jan 1999 00:00:20 -0500
Subject: Re: Korff Spams The News Groups!


>Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 10:46:06 -0800
>From: Kal Korff <KalKorff@KalKorff.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Korff Spams The News Groups!

>>Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 08:21:00 -0600
>>From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>Subject: UFO UpDate: Re: Korff Spams The News Groups!

>Dear Alfred,

>Obviously, you do not understand me, so I will try to convey
>this to you for the last and final time.

Uh -- Oh  <g>-- but I  think I _do_ understand you, Kal. You
forget what's going on here. I am that public you work
passionately to convince regarding the validity of your
position. I am the individual that you are reporting to. I am
the person that you want to maintain credibility with. I'm in a
position to provide you with valuable feed back, and even more
valuble support, and I'm reporting back to you that half baked
proclamations with a woo woo sound track  (yay _or_ nay) don't
get it any more. I'm informing you that everyone understands
your use of easy to demolish straw examples in your expos=E9s to
demonstrate that the whole FIELD is bunk, stuff, and nonsense.
I'm letting you know that your campaign _is_ ineffective,
insulting, and works as an impediment to your honorable
journalistic success.

>There are no "emotional high ground" games going on here. If you
>wish to play any, then do so without me. What is going on,
>however, is a sincere quest for the truth.

. . .As sincere as professional wrestling, and certainly
approached by you the same way. The rational aren't sucked in.
"Quest for truth," indeed -- please. I snort derisively.

>You, sir, in your emails to and about me, including your literal
>poetry about me over the past year that you have published on
>the web, (please feel free to make up a posting of ALL your
>links discussing me that you have ever written!)

No need Kal -- it's there regardless! The interested reader can
peruse at her leisure.

>seem unable of
>divesting your emotional feelings from the intellectual
>arguments and case logic that you purportedly advocate.

. . . And which _you_ have certainly _not_ provided, in any
shape, way, manner, or discernible form. . .

>Since I
>do not seem able to distinguish between the two when reading
>your writings, then I feel that further correspondence is
>pointless.

And you are probably correct -- except I am loath to let _yours_
be the final word on it!

>Therefore, I am discontinuing it, until if and when the time
>comes that you are able to email me or post your point(s) minus
>the severe emotionalism and ad hominems you presently include.

I see them as honest and meaningful expressions of frustration
and disappointment that you front for agendas wallowing in the
bottom stirring dross of the _easily_ contested. I resent that
you don't use your position, experience, and talent to perform
REAL investigations on _substantive_ issues. I resent that you
are talented enough to draw the concerned anf perplexed into
your prevaricating and _misleading_ camp. I resent your theme,
method, and slap-dash-Persian-bazaar approach, sir. I don't
think this qualifies as "severe emotionalism and ad hominems,"
but I'm content to let our readers be the judge.

>And oh yes, sir, also omitting data and charges for which you
>have no evidence, would also be desirable.

This is just a situation report from the field, Kal -- your
public talking back to you. I'd take a lesson, were it me.

>When you do this, I will be extremely happy to read an email
>from you and finally be able to answer to your issues and
>points, because I will at last have understood them!

I think we both appreciate the full import of both issues and
points, Kal.  But I struggle free of your scales, innuendo, and
darkness. I retreat from your smothering lack of understanding,
your ambushed conclusions, and your apparent lack of
journalistic integrity.

>Feel free
>to make this as wide a public issue as you like. I welcome close
>scutiny of your postings and written behavior.

I'm all for that <g>. Given the insulting provocation of your
assertions, I think _my_ behavior is admirable.

>I will not waste my time going through your past writings, as
>you curiously recommended,

It's what _you_ would recommend to _me_, sir, if you could truly
stand behind your shallow proclamations; but you _know_ that
they are blown away in the first small breeze of critical
evaluation, so you don't suggest it.

>because having been the subject of
>some of them in often less than flattering terms, why should I
>re-read charges and claims that are patently false?

I'm your reading public, Kal. True or false - they are based on
_your_ track record and subject to change based on _your_
performance (or lack of same). Do something of journalistic
integrity, and I'll be the _first_ to sing your praises.
Continue as you are, and I will also continue to critically
string my guitar with your smoke and mirror innards.

>I don't think you would waste your time on them either.

On the contrary, I would take them point for point, as I have
_been_ doing, and not snip away the portions that are hard to
argue, as you did with all the preamble to _this_ post.

>Looking forward to your writing and publishing, for everyone to
>see, your complete list of writings about me, and also, those
>final emails that are minus the unprofesional verbiage.

. . .Nonsense, you just need to learn to take valid criticism
better.


Lehmberg@snowhill.com
--
Explore the Alien View!
Ponder the Wit & Wisdom of Ching Chow!

http://www.fortunecity.com/roswell/arecibo/46/

<Updated 28 December>

John Ford Restoration Fund -- Send your checks and
money orders to _me_, Alfred Lehmberg
(cut out the lawyers, they got their's) at:
304 Melbourne Drive, Enterprise AL, 36330. Strict records kept.

"Only thin, _very light_ envelopes with a return address will be
accepted <g>." ~~~ $225.00 pledged -- $125.00 collected ~~~

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see from
afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, while burning at the





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 2

                       Re: FOX Hoax Special - Reaction

From: Bob Shell <bob@bobshell.com>
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1998 13:05:23 -0500 (EST)
Fwd Date: Sat, 02 Jan 1999 00:05:02 -0500
Subject: Re: FOX Hoax Special - Reaction

>Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 22:59:22 -0500
>From: James Easton <pulsar@compuserve.com>
>Subject: UFO UpDate: Re: FOX Hoax Special - Reaction
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>

<snip>

>To further recap:

>During September 1995, in a posting to CompuServe's MUFON forum,
>Bob Shell wrote:

>"The tent footage, shot at the crash site under light from
>emergency lanterns, shows technicians cutting the "space suit"
>off one of the bodies because, to quote the cameraman, it was
>holding in heat and hastening decomposition.  The fabric was
>very tough, and they eventually had to use sheet metal cutters
>to cut it".

>How could the 'cameraman' - presumably Ray Santilli 'passing on'
>the message - confirm this if it's now claimed the 'cameraman'
>didn't recognise the 'tent footage' and by September of 1995,
>Ray knew that film was a joke?

The comments from the cameraman were provided by Ray or someone
at his office.  I honestly do not recall who told me this.


>Given that Ray Santilli now states he knew at an early stage
>that the 'tent footage' was a joke, perhaps Bob Shell can
>confirm the obvious deduction that he was never informed.

Correct.  What Ray did tell me was that he was not releasing the
footage because the cameraman could not verify it as material he
had shot.

>Similarly, Philip Mantle stated he would publicly reveal the
>'tent footage' during his BUFORA conference lecture at the
>University of Northumbria on 27 January 1996, did show it at the
>April 1996 Fortean Times 'Unconvention' and it was also intended
>to be shown by Philip at the Greensboro MUFON conference in the
>summer of 1996, a full year after it was supposedly acknowledged
>to be a practical joke.

>Again, can we surmise that Philip was never told by Ray Santilli
>that this film was a joke?


I believe at this time that Philip had been told the same story
I had been told, that the film could not be verified.

>It's not so much compounding Ray Santilli's failure to
>communicate his only recently claimed knowledge that he knew the
>tent footage was a joke played on him, the repercussions now go
>beyond that. For example, answering criticisms re the late
>delivery of 'Roswell: The Footage' videos ordered from Ray's
>company, Bob Shell responded on the CompuServe MUFON forum in
>September 1995:

>"I'm assured that the delay was only because Ray was trying his
>best to get permission to include the first autopsy and the rest
>of the tent scene. These negotiations apparently were not
>successful".


This is what I was told at the time.

>Later, during October 1995, he added:

>"This morning I asked about the absence of the tent footage from
>the video. I am told this was just loose in the box and that the
>cameraman now says he can't recall what this is or when and
>where he shot it. Since I have not seen it, I can't comment, but
>I was told that this may not be an alien in he photo, but simply
>an injured serviceman".

>Patently known to Ray Santilli that it was neither an 'alien' or
>an 'injured serviceman', why was Bob apparently still being led
>to believe that was a possibility, when it was already known the
>footage was solely in jest?


Good question.  Ask Ray.

Bob







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 2

                           Re: Cough, Korf, Ahem!

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1998 13:12:04 EST
Fwd Date: Sat, 02 Jan 1999 00:08:48 -0500
Subject: Re: Cough, Korf, Ahem!


>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@connectmmic.net>
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Cough, Korf, Ahem!
>Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 22:42:07 -0500

>>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
>>Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 13:44:25 EST
>>To: updates@globalserve.net
>>Subject: Re: Cough, Korf, Ahem!

>>>Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1998 23:03:48 -0800
>>>From: Kal Korff <KalKorff@KalKorff.com>
>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>>Subject: Re: Cough, Korf, Ahem!

>>Hic! Excuse me, please.

>What did everyone expect from the KKK-BK duo, a W5 on UFOs?

>Come on everybody, we got exactly what we all supposed we were
>gonna get: a cheap show shooting in the dark - and missing the
>mark by a mile or two - with no educative intent and aimed at an
>audience with the IQ equal to half the sum of the IQs of the
>KKKBK.

>Who's expecting to find the Third Secret of Fatima in a box
>Cracker Jack?

Oh my gosh Serge!  You are a God Damned GENIUS man!  A GENIUS! I
am supposed to be creative.  It's what Dr. Gesundt PAYS me to
be!  But it took a man with (probably, I don't know you, Serge)
no experience whatever as a marketing genius to make history for
Freshly Made!

Gosh.  I should seriously consider hanging up my three Ph.D.'s
in Gorilla Marketing for missing out on that one.  What a
dimbulb I am.

Serge, you wrote...

>with no educative intent and aimed at an
>audience with the IQ equal to half the sum of the IQs of the
>KKKBK.  ...
>Who's expecting to find the Third Secret of Fatima in a box
>Cracker Jack?

Serge, you just described our market, man!  THAT's IT!!!

Dear Mr. Kal Courgh... Cork, Krofff, whatever, I love you.
What's more, I support everything you do.  You, Sir, are a
genius the likes of which I haven't seen since Fromage.

And have I got a deal for you.

I, Dr. James S. Mortellaro, Jr., Ph.D., MBA, M.O.U.S.E., Come
Loud, personally endorse your show.  In fact, you can tell your
sponsors to go stick the heads in a warm wet place.  Not only do
I endorse your show, I endorse everything you do. Dr. Gesundt's
CSUFOLRSADHFW will sponsor everything you do form now on.

In fact, I think I'll issue a press release right now.  May even
have a web site created.  Hmmm.  Lemme see. Gotta think of a
good theme. Uh, how about this.....

If you thought that Chees vendor's site was great, wait'll you
see ours!  The Kal Kropf (say, do I have that spelling
right?).... the Kal Kropf Fatima Riddle Solved Web site.
Finally revealed, the secret of Mary whatshername!

"The Mother was a Alien!"

Oh, but I am getting ahead of myself.  Write me write away, Sir.
My email address is,
FRESHWINESFOREVER-GODISGOODBUTHISMOMWASAALIEN@INEBRIATED.COM

Let's do lunch!

Dr. Morty

PS: OK, we can end this thread now.  I got what I wanted.... the





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 2

                 Re: FOX Hoax Special - Tent Footage Images

From: neil morris <neil@adm1.ph.man.ac.uk>
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1998 19:48:00 -0800
Fwd Date: Sat, 02 Jan 1999 00:11:55 -0500
Subject: Re: FOX Hoax Special - Tent Footage Images


>Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 22:59:22 -0500
>From: James Easton <pulsar@compuserve.com>
>Subject: UFO UpDate: Re: FOX Hoax Special - Reaction
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>

>Regarding the FOX 'Hoax Special' program...

>To recap:

>1) The 'tent footage', was the first film to be shown and Reg
>Presley saw at least part of this sometime between December 1994
>and January 1995. According to Philip Mantle, he saw the entire
>unreleased 'first autopsy' on 28th April 1995 and the 'second
>autopsy' was then shown to an invited audience at the Museum of
>London on 5 May 1995.

>The 'debris footage' appeared circa June 1995 and via the
>distinctive "I-beams with 'hieroglyphics'' was the only direct
>film connection to the 'Roswell' story.

<snip>

All,

Enhanced images from this "pirate" footage have been available
on my web site for some time. (1997)

The faces of the people involved are not obscured but the
overall quality of the video footage is quite diabolical, though
I would imagine from a direct optical blowup from the original
print the features of the 2 figures seen in shot could be made
out without much difficulty.

http://adm2.ph.man.ac.uk/index.htm

Neil.


-------------------------------------------------------

Neil Morris@Home.
Email:             Neil@adm1.ph.man.ac.uk






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 2

                              Re: '92 Sighting

From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net>
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1998 12:01:25 -0800
Fwd Date: Sat, 02 Jan 1999 07:31:38 -0500
Subject: Re: '92 Sighting



>From: Sharon Kardol <sharon@hotmix.com.au>
>To: <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Info on '92 Sighting
>Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1998 11:45:10 +0800

>Hi there all,

>I was hoping that someone might be able to help me with some
>information concerning a sighting which occurred in 1992. All
>the information I have follows -

<snip>

>Thank you in advance, and a Happy New Year to everyone.

Dear  Ms. Kardol:

I regret that my oply  record from Endeavor Hills  was on
09Oct1989  and obviously unrelated.

In the 1989 account,  two observers saw a 20 foot ( 6 metre )
object [ poorly described ] hovering near some power lines.
Grass in the vicinity later died in some odd manner.

For fine and necessary details on this particular event, one
must consult Bill Chalker's book " The OZ Files",  page 189.

There is a second source:  /r123 p 231.      For ten centavos,
I will go look that up too, but please allow time.

If you are short of time,   please let me know in advance.

With all due respects

-  Larry Hatch





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 2

               Re: Military Ability to Detect & Identify UFOs

From: Farley Scott <SCOTTF@HughesLuce.com>
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1998 14:07:26 -0600
Fwd Date: Sat, 02 Jan 1999 07:37:24 -0500
Subject: Re: Military Ability to Detect & Identify UFOs


>From: Geri & Alfred Webre <Ecotoday@aol.com>
>Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 13:46:17 EST
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Re: Military Ability to Detect & Identify UFOs


>Dear All,

>We find that gratuitous sarcasm and dissing tend to corrode the
>atmosphere of discussion about UFO posts that may have a
>'Colonel' (sic) of insight here and there.

<snip>

>From what we understand, Stephens (for whom we hold no brief)
>himself admits to being in the UFO field for only 70 days or so.
>He deserves some slack. Heads up critique, but not reckless
>political gossip. He is, after all, from a war-strategy
>background, and may have something valuable to contribute, at
>least to our thought processes.

>What does the List think?


Hi List,

I think this Stephens guy is either
a.) a complete fraud, or
b.) a real person who is very misinformed, or
c.) a major crackpot

Others have already pointed out his bogus information such as
where he states that the moon does not rotate about its own
axis. This guy is supposed to be knowledgeable in celestial
mechanics?

He also talks about scrambling SR-71s for intercept. Why, I'll
bet it only takes a few hours of prep time to scramble
one of those at a moment's notice.

I have now listened to the Art Bell program where Stephens is a
guest. I am not a Hoagland supporter, and I am definitely not an
Art Bell supporter as he is always reading these letters from
"credentialled individuals" that he is very impressed with but
can't reveal who they are, etc. Just blather.

But this Stephens guy doesn't make any sense whatsoever. I
can't believe a NASA contractor in his position would have
access to the kind of information that he claims.

He sounds like a lonely man wanting attention. Art Bell to the
rescue. Maybe this guy knows something. But I doubt it. He
sounds VERY confused. I've seen people like him who stand on
street corners and rage at unseen demons. He makes about that
much sense. Maybe he is a politican?

Just my opinion.

Farley Scott
Dallas, TX






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 2

                      Re: Bell Cuts-Off R.A.M. Stephens

From: Lea H. MacDonald <inventor@kingston.net>
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1998 14:46:11 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 02 Jan 1999 07:45:44 -0500
Subject: Re: Bell Cuts-Off R.A.M. Stephens


[Non-Sub Post]

>Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1998 11:32:27 -0600
>From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Bell Cuts-Off R.A.M. Stephens

>>Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1998 02:43:55 +0000
>>From: Robert A.M. Stephens <sti3818@montana.com>
>>To: updates@globalserve.net
>>Subject: [Fwd: Very Well Done Robert!]

>>Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1998 03:52:58 -0500
>>From: Lea H. MacDonald <inventor@kingston.net>
>>To: sti3818@montana.com
>>Subject: Very Well Done Robert!

>>I can't say how proud I am of you! :) Bell was reduced to having
>>to terminate the show in order to keep Hoaxland from being
>>reduced to ashes in an intellectual fire storm! You Sir, are
>>walking tall!

><snip>

>>_Very_well_done_!! :))

>>Very, Very Best Regards,

>>Lea MacDonald.

>With all respect ma'am, I don't think we listened to the same
>show.


With all due respect Sir, you, like Hoagland, should check your
data before responding!






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 2

                      Re: Bell Cuts-Off R.A.M. Stephens

From: Tim Matthews <matthews@zetnet.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 1 Jan 1999 08:38:31 -0000
Fwd Date: Sat, 02 Jan 1999 07:50:27 -0500
Subject: Re: Bell Cuts-Off R.A.M. Stephens


>Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1998 10:20:36 -0600
>From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: Bell Cuts-Off R.A.M. Stephens


>>Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1998 02:28:00 +0000
>>From: Robert A. M. Stephens <sti3818@montana.com>
>>To: <updates@globalserve.net>,
>>Subject: They Cut Off Robert!

>>[http://ww2.broadcast.com/artbell/archive98.html#dec98 --ebk]

>>Art Bell and Richard Hoagland cut me off at 2:04am MST ON
>>12-31-1998 when I asked Art to ask me questions from Richard
>>since Richard was incoherent and would not ask me any more
>>questions.

<snip>

>I heard the program sir -- I think that this is what occurs when
>you open your mouth, insert your foot, and then attempt to echo
>internationally. I think you got more civility than you deserve.


I couldn't agree more. Any man who pretends to be an expert and
then claims that either the F-117A stealth interdictor or the
SR-71 have been used as "interceptors" deserves no air time at
all - even if Hoagland and Bell are running the modern-day
equivalent of the Banana Splits for conspiracy theorists.

As far as I and many colleagues are concerned Stephens is
another Ed Fouche - big on talk and totally lacking in remotely
credible evidence.

Tim Matthews.





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 2

                      Re: Bell Cuts-Off R.A.M. Stephens

From: Tim Matthews <matthews@zetnet.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 1 Jan 1999 08:43:30 -0000
Fwd Date: Sat, 02 Jan 1999 07:56:53 -0500
Subject: Re: Bell Cuts-Off R.A.M. Stephens


>Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1998 06:38:11 +0000
>From: Robert A.M. Stephens <sti3818@montana.com>
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: From Art To Robert

>Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1998 06:32:17 +0000
>From: "Robert A. M. Stephens" <sti3818@montana.com>
>To: ArtBell@aol.com
>Subject: Re: cut Robert off

>ArtBell@aol.com wrote:

>>My God man!, you did not make sense. You totally contradicted
>>yourself. You did NOT discuss the real issues. What the hell
>>happened to you? I have had THOUSANDS of e-mails saying
>>something VERY different.

>>                            Art


If Stephens is a scientist then I'm a prophet.

He, as much as Bell and Hoagland, is putting out nonsensical
fantasy and has, as far as I can see, been unable to support any
of his claims.

I passed Stephens conversational material with Peter Gersten
onto some aviation writer and satellite communications
colleagues.

I think they are all in hospital tonight having laughed
themselves silly.

No wonder the general public treat Ufologists with such
contempt!

Tim X






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 2

                           Re: Cough, Korf, Ahem!

From: Michael Christol <mchristo@mindspring.com>
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1998 15:24:29 -0600
Fwd Date: Sat, 02 Jan 1999 08:03:50 -0500
Subject: Re: Cough, Korf, Ahem!


>Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1998 05:18:14 -0800 (PST)
>From: Roger R. Prokic <rprokic@earthlink.net>
>To: <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Cough, Korf, Ahem!

>Who the hell are you to question my scientific/research
>approach?!! That is quite rude of you. In fact, as venomous as
>some folks here believe Kal to be.

I am Michael Christol...I am 54 Years Old, and a person who has
devoted 40 years to the study UFOs, aka Flying Saucers, and the
RUSSIAN and UNITED STATES Space Programs, starting with the
Lauching of Sputnik 1 and the ill fated US attempts to equal
that fete, by implimenting a rush job program ordered by Dwight
David Eisenhower, President of the United States at that time.

I know that following initial failures to successfully launch a
satellite, following the Russian Sputniks 1 and 2, that the
United States finally achieved success on Jan. 31, 1958, with
the launch of Explorer 1, which weighed 30.8 pounds, compared to
the Sputnicks which weighed 184 pounds and 1,120 pounds
respectively... The Second American Satellite, Vanguard 1,
lanunched March 17, 1958 was a tiny sphere, 6.4 inches in
diameter and weighte a paultry 30.8 pounds.

While successful, it hardly matched the performance of the
Soviets with their Mammoth Booster Rockets, while we used small
rockets, such as the Redstone booster, which was later used to
launch Allen Sheppard and Gus Grissom on their sub-orbital
trips, after the Soviets had successfully orbited Yuri Gagarin
on April 12, 1961. Allen Sheppards launch was five weeks after
Gagarin, on May 5, 1961....

It doesn't matter that Dr. Wernher von Braun and other
scientists had urged President Eisenhower to allow the launching
of a satellite prior to the Russian Launch, or that as far back
as the Pre-Korean War, that these same scientists urged then
President Truman to allow them to use an Atlas rocket to launch
a 1000 pound scientific satellite into orbit.

President Truman refused, citing he could see no use for it...

Speculation was that if the North Koreans saw that the United
States had the capability to place a Nuclear Bomb in orbit over
their country, as well as China and The Soviet Union, in 1950,
that there would have been no Korean War, nor would China or
Russia have interfered in that Nations politics...Why, because,
at that time, the War Mentality being what it was, these Nations
would have assumed we would not fail to use those nuclear bombs
on them, considering that we had already proven we would do so,
during the final days of WW 11, in Japan!

I know that NASA was born on October 1, 1958 and as a result
absorbed the National Advisory Committee for Aeronautics (NACA),
which was primarily concentrating its energies on Aviation at
that time, but did much of the groundwork which lead to the
establishment of NASA, i.e., the National Aeronautics and Space
Administration.

Is that enough about what I know about the early space program?
I think so...I don't have to prove my history beyond that point.

As far as UFOs, I first became aware of "flying saucers" in
1953, when I heard my fist news broadcast about a sighting near
where my family and I lived in Rome, Ga. My father was a
construction worker, i.e., Boilermaker, Wielder, for the TVA
(Tennessee Valley Authority), which supplied electrical Power
over the Tennessee Valley and parts of Georgia and Alabama at
that time.

I was nine years old at that time...

When I reached the ripe old age of 12, I began checking out
virtually every book on the subject of Flying Saucers, I could
find at the Libraries...

I read Pro and Con books, one of them being by Dr. Donald
Menzel, whom, in my opinion was the predicessor of Phil Klass,
the next, prominent Debunker in Ufology... Needless to say, my
young mind preferred the pro-Flying Saucer books, but I realized
the need for ballance even at that age.

I read: Donald Kehoe; Edward Ruppelt; Adamski; Frank Scully;
Frank Edwards; MK Jessup; Amie' Michel; among othres. I learned
as much about the beginnings of the "modern era" of Flying
Saucers" as I could...I studied the cases of early sightings in
the South by Air Line Pilots, who claimed to be buzzed by long,
cylinder shaped objects, in view of the passengers as well.

I wrote and received replies from George Adamski and his
associate C.A Honey...

I wrote Dr. J. Allen Hynek, in April, 1985 and conversed with
him via phone several times prior to his death. I submitted my
first plant and soil samples from a soy bean filed in the county
about 15 miles from where I live to NICAP on August 7, 1967 and
received a reply on Aug. 21, 1967 from Emilie B. Sinkler, Staff
Assistant...

Enough!  I get so damn tired of having to promote my value to
this field.  I get off my butte and into the field, face to face
with those who make claims...check out the data to the best of
my ability, type up reports, which I share with close
associates, but mostly keep to myself, filed away in my own
filing cabnets, for posterity, or to use as a source of double
checking later reports of similar nature....

I really don't care if you, Kal Korff, or anyone else thinks I
am qualified to comment on this field as well as the Aeorspace
field or not!  I know what is locked away in the vault of my
mind...as well as in the files in my cabnets...not to mention in
the archives of my cyber filing cabnets...

>You take such a position againt me for supporting Kal in
>revealing Meier as a fraud, then in the same message you say I
>haven't this, I haven't that regarding your own research of
>Meier. You say you "cannot say completely that the Meier case
>is authentic". Come on Mike, either you believe or you don't!
>Take a position! Until then, don't question other people's
>"opinions" of Meier.

In the first place what Kal says is merely conjecture.  He has
never talked to Billy face to face.  He talked to Poppi, Billy's
ex-wife, but what ex-wife has ever had anything positive to say
about her spouce....I happen to have one of the origional
Genesis III videos, where she states catagorically, that she has
personally witnessed a sighting while with Billy and others of
the group, as well as being a part of the group which recorded
the "sounds" which appeared to origionate from abouve them in
the clouds.  So say what you will...but I would not base my
'belief' system on Kal Korff...

The only way it would be possible for me to 'know if what Billy
Meier is saying is so, would be for me to Personally experience
it!  Since I did not, you are asking me to make a statment of
Knowledge, not belief, based on what I have accumulated about
his case!  How can I do that?  How can you, likewise do that!
You are suppose to be trained to base your "educated opinion" on
the accumulated information available to you, not just someone
elses opoinions.

I have taken a position:  A position of 'Wait and See'! I shall
let History show the reality or fradulence of this case!  If
that is not good enought for you, Roger, that is just to bad!
No one says you have to read my posts.  No one says you have to
reply to what I address to you!  It is strictly Your Choice!

Anytime you see a message posted in the UFO UpDates, by myself,
just click on 'delete' and go on to the next one. It won't
bother me at all.

>Just to clarify my "opinion" -- note I never once said I did
>research and know for a fact. I believe Meier a hoax because:

>1. Many sources believe his UFO shots appear to be done using a
>model of some sort.

>2. Meier has a "cult-like" following - whether this is his
>intention or not

>3. He claims to channel with these Pleidians that come to visit
>him in his model UFO's.

>4. No scientific data ever has shown the Pleides to have the
>possibility to be life-sustaining.

>Just my opinion.

And you are entitled to your opinion...yet, much of what you
have stated in the above is based on half-true information. Why
don't you take the time to check out each of the four statments
you have made and see if you find information which alters those
views...I will not comment on them until you do so...then, maybe
I won't have too. <g>

>What's yours?

Sigh...some people.....
It does not matter what my opinion is.  What matters
is whether or not any of the material involved in
this case can be verified.

I use to talk to Marcell Vogel about his studies of the 'metal
samples' which Wendelle Stevens delivered to him. He had
something definite to say about those samples, and he also made
a video which shows part of those tests. He had a helper, who
worked with him on those samples, prior to his death...whom I
still communicate with on accassion, and whom have met face to
face and consider a friend. He has told me much about the metal
samples which Marcel did not reveal to me....

>Roger R. Prokic
>Telecom Design Lead
>Mars Surveyor Program
>Lockheed Martin Astronautics
>Denver, Colorado USA


REgards, Mike Christol,
Nobody.....





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 2

                              Carl and Richard

From: Doug Paul <dougpaul@river.netrover.com>
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1998 16:21:38 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 02 Jan 1999 08:08:07 -0500
Subject: Carl and Richard


I've been reading this list for about 3 years now and have
noticed a collective perspective that never fails to interest
me.

I have read Richard C. Hoagland's book, "The Monuments of Mars:
A City on the Edge of Forever". I enjoyed it greatly and thought
what he had to say about Mars made sense. I have also read some
stuff by Carl Sagan on the search for extraterrestrial
life--that was the title of his last book I believe, and was no
so impressed.

My year-end question, therefore, is: why do most people on this
list dismiss almost everything Richard Hoagland writes, does or
says, while admiring (dare I say worship?)almost verything Carl
Sagan wrote, did or said?

Thanks=85.

Doug Paul





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 2

                      Re: Bell Cuts-Off R.A.M. Stephens

From: Keith Wyatt <kew@teleport.com>
Date: Fri, 01 Jan 1999 04:00:14 GMT
Fwd Date: Sat, 02 Jan 1999 08:14:58 -0500
Subject: Re: Bell Cuts-Off R.A.M. Stephens


On Thu, 31 Dec 1998 11:10:06 -0500, you wrote:

>Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1998 02:43:55 +0000
>From: Robert A.M. Stephens <sti3818@montana.com>
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: [Fwd: Very Well Done Robert!]


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


Mr Stephens,

You are correct about Richard Hoagland in one way. He is so
deluded with conspiracys that he thinks they are true. How many
people remember when Richard C. Hoagland claimed that pictures
from NASA showed Glass structures on the moon? How many times
has Richard Hoagland made outlandish claims only to be proven
wrong? Richard Hoagland lives in his own world and Art Bell even
takes him with a grain of salt. Everything that goes wrong with
a NASA mission is some 19.5 conspiracy.

IMHO,

Keith

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3ia
Charset: cp850

iQDRAwUBNoxIH9WvjbPs7E0pAQGMLQXZAde1q3wCBMNNzWrocpvDWsU0vjG9tpTi
xyhByYtOib294fanHPPrh9fh/e1juQ9AL/ebb243uaeW/YG59DxKozMY0KK+VDHF
BN6GUjI1uonQQn4drm2YXbrS3ZENBfdX95ozA+EjAJoeIBO+RzrvZun998pZ/48p
6N4IpD3Rb4lZ1TWDYyVcfLmq2TrcxJcMHKH1btUa+wMciOPXBEQe5eyw66bRsEgU
++FyQHt5arSmLnYw1y65lCti/gs=
=6Mxm
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 2

                      (1994) NEXRAD Weather Radar Info

From: Bob Soetebier <bikebob@mo.net>
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1998 22:18:33 -0600 (CST)
Fwd Date: Sat, 02 Jan 1999 08:19:18 -0500
Subject: (1994) NEXRAD Weather Radar Info


Considering the current [Hoagland] weather radar "anomalies"
controversy, I thought you all might (or, might not) find the
following (appended below) information about NEXRAD weather
radar of interest. The first part is information that I
personally typed up and had subsequently publicly posted on "The
Weather Room" subject public message area of a St. Louis
[Missouri] metro area "WWIV"-based electronic BBS back in 1994.
The second and third parts are public responses from the
"moderator" ("Badger #106"...who also happened to be an employee
of the National Weather Service facility in nearby St. Charles
County, Missouri) of "The Weather Room" sub to the NEXRAD
controversy information I had posted.


Bob Soetebier

St. Louis County, Missouri


  Tailwinds to you...      See you ON the road!

  /// BICYCLE BOB ///      bikebob@mo.net


-------------------------------------------------------------

 By chance, I just happened to vaguely be listening to today's
[3-3-94; St. Louis, MO] Montel Williams TV talk show (while
working on the computer, of course.) The show's subject was the
apparent raging controversy over the placement of the National
Weather Service's 150 ELF/microwave (NEXTRAD, I believe) weather
radar towers (like the newly-installed one in our area at Weldon
Springs, MO --- apparently, there are two other NEXTRAD
locations out near K.C., and also somewhere southward of K.C.,
too.)

  The show featured residents of Ojay, CA in Ventura County
(about 100 miles or so north of L.A.) including Larry Hagman [of
"I Dream of Jennie"/"Dallas" fame] who's $5-million home (which
took five years to build) is now located only a couple of
hundred yards within *direct* line-of-sight of a brand new
100-foot NEXTRAD (38' in diamater microwave dome-top) tower atop
Ojay's Silver Mtn. The entire tower was literally put up within
48-hours over Thanksgiving weekend, virtually without any real
notification or discussion to area residents, nor environmental
impact statements, and violating local area building codes on
*non* federal gov't. property. (Apparently, the Nat'l. Weather
Service chose the Silver Mtn. top location -- literally just
above and adjacent to hundreds of private homes in Ojay
[pronounced "OH HI", by the way] -- instead of placing it on
other just as suitable locations miles away on property already
owned by the fed. gov't.)

Each one of the 150 NEXTRAD radar units will cost the U.S.
taxpayers $2.5 million. But, that's not where the *major*
contoversy apparently lies. What concerns these folks (and me
too) is the fact that the ELF/microwave emmissions from these
new towers are at least well over 1000 times more powerful than
the old radar units (and/or the highest powered mountaintop
radio antennaes already in place; if I caught the info on the
show correctly, that is.) --- Because of attendant public health
concerns, the NWS was forced (or "agreed to") move (*before*
they were allowed to be erected) their New York-area NEXTRAD to
a remote location on Long Island.

NWS Dir. "Joe" Friday was on the show and tried to
diplomatically assuage public fears over the 150 new radar
installations, but was not able to do so in the face of
testimony given by the Ojay, CA residents on the show, an
epidemialogical research doctor who noted the direct connection
of such ELF/microwave irradiation from such radar facilities and
direct human health problems such as cancer and deleterious
brain and eye problems, and Montel Williams' own statements
concerning his *direct* knowledge of dire hazard warnings in
working near or around ELF/microwave transmission during his
military service (in the Navy or Marines, I believe.) In MW's
words: "We were told never to go topside while they were
transmitting or we would be 'smoked.' " Ojay area residents said
they have since learned that NWS personell have been warned
never to stand or walk by or in front of the transmission beam
or they could or would suffer permanent deleterious helth
effects. They (the residents) also said they had been told of
problems of dead birds around such NWS ELF/microwave towers
elsewhere.

U.S. Rep Elton Gallegly (R-CA) who represents the Ojay,
CA/Ventura County area was on the show. He said he had weeks ago
written Ron Brown, Secretary of the U.S. Commerce Dept. [which
oversees the NWS] requesting info on the 150 new weather radar
installations and any possible health concerns, without (as yet)
a reply. He promises to persue this matter this matter on the
national level.

[By the way, the effective long-range transmission/emmission of
the Nat'l. Weather Service NEXTRAD ELF/microwave towers is 250
miles, with a detailed storm analysis range of 125 miles.]


----------------------------------------------


Msg #: [31/32]             Base: The Weather Room (Local)
Date : Fri 11 Mar 1994 8:48a      Stat: Public
From : Badger #106
To  : Bicycle Bob #146
Title: Re: New Weather Radar Health Problems; Specifics about the
Ojai, CA Site

The only precautions taken around the radar is to shut it off
when electronic technicians enter the dome to do maintanence.

I can only pass-on what has been told to me and frankly, whether
its true or not, doesn't really bother me.

Based on accepted safety standards, scientific studies to date
on Radio Frequency Radiation (RFR) energy indicate that there is
no health risk posed by operation of the WSR-88D radars. The
radar exceeds all scientific safety standards. WSR-88D weather
radars emit non-ionizing RFR energy and levels emitted by the
radar are below the minimum safety limits.

The radar only emits a signal for 6 sec of every hour. The rest
of the time is spent listening. The safety standards established
by the American National Standards Institute (ASNI) and the
Institute of Electronic and Electrical Engineers (IEEE) include
a safety factor of 50 in the standard. At ground level 1/2 mile
from the radar, the strength of the signal is 100,000 times
below the ANSI/IEEE standards.

A person standing at an operating WSR-88D tower receives 2000
time less than the maximum safe level of exposure to RFR
according to these groups.

I could go on and on, but this sort of bores me. Here's the
specifics about the Ojai site. (I won't bother much with
specifics about the radiation since we already covered that. The
NWS feels there is no danger from that.)

As far as the site goes, the NWS prepared a Prorammatic
Environmental Impact Statement (PEIS) in Nov.1984 to comply with
the National Environmental Policy Act. The PEIS was filed with
all state clearing houses, including the CA Office of Planning
and Research, in accordance with Guidelines of the Council on
Environmental Quality.

In April 1986, NWS issued a Preliminary Site survey for the
Sulphur Mountain site, including an initial Environmental
Assessment considering potential impacts of a WSR-88D site on
resources in the area.

In August 1987, NWS issued an in-depth site survey for the site
again, which was update again in April 1993.

In January 1989, the director of NOAA's Ecology and
Environmental Conservation Office signed a Finding of No
Significant Impact (FONSI) with respect to the site based on
1984 PEIS and the 1986,1987 surveys.

In February 1989, the FONSI was filed with the California State
clearinghouse, which replied with a letter of 'no response' on
March 15, 1989.

On March 10,1989, the Jan.1989 FONSI was filed with the
California Association of Governments, the local clearinghouse,
which did not respond.

On March 26, 1993, NOAA issued a draft supplemental
Environmental Assessment (SEA) reviewing all pertinent studies
related to the bioeffects of non-ionizing high frequency
radiation that had been conducted since the 1984 PEIS.

On July 15, 1993, a FONSI was issued. The SEA was filed with all
state clearinghouses and provided to those individuals and
organizations who had expressed interest.

As far as local interests go....

April 1992 - The NWS Area Manager for Southern Calif. briefed
the Ventura County board of Supervisors on the installation of
the radar.

March 1993 - A letter from the Area Manager was sent to local
congressmen and politicians, including Congressmen Gallegly.

June 1993 - The County of Ventura exempted the Sulphur Mountain
project from its permitting requirements.

....and that's about all I know.

  /\/\  the ( -  o ) BADGER >>>\/>>


---------------------------------------------


Msg #: [30/30]             Base: The Weather Room (Local) Date :
Fri 22 Apr 1994 11:06p     Stat: Public >From : Badger #106 To
: Bicycle Bob #146 Title: Latest on the WSR-88D / NEXRAD

Because of the concern of Ojai citizens (southern CA), on
Feb.16-17, 1994, the NWS retained a team of engineers from the
Illinois Institute of Technology Research Institute to measure
the strength of the WSR-88D signal to ensure that the emission
from the Sulphur Mountain site complied with the IEEE/ANSI and
NCRP safety standards. The NWS had originally planned for the
team to take these measurements at the homes of the concerned
residents. However, Sulphur Mountain residents unanimously
agreed they would neither participate in the testing nor allow
access to their property. The measurements were then taken on
public available property near the residents' homes. These tests
confirmed that the energy level transmitted by the WSR-88D is a
very small fraction of energy levels permitted by either
standard.

Subsequent testing was conducted in Ojai at KDAY, Jones Cable
Oxnard, Ventura Cable, and a private residence. The television
stations agreed with the findings of the engineering team that
neither the WSR-88D not the microwave line of site were causing
interference problems. Testing at the private residence appears
to indicate that the radar was not the source of an interference
problem.


-------------------------------------------------------------






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 2

             Happy New Year And Thank You For Up With Me Putting

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 1 Jan 1999 02:29:02 EST
Fwd Date: Sat, 02 Jan 1999 08:24:41 -0500
Subject: Happy New Year And Thank You For Up With Me Putting


I would like to extend a very happy New Year to all on this
list. I wish you good health, lots of love and a little wealth
wouldn't hurt.

I would also like to thank each of you for putting up with me.
According to my wife, this is exceedingly difficult, especially
as a life time enterprise.  She told me just a moment ago that I
am strange and she is wonderful.  I concur.

So, despite the correctness of the statement... God bless us,
Everyone..... _Please_






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 2

                        Australia: UFO Heralds Santa

From: Stig Agermose <Stig_Agermose@online.pol.dk>
Date: Fri, 1 Jan 1999 08:40:43 +0100
Fwd Date: Sat, 02 Jan 1999 08:27:16 -0500
Subject: Australia: UFO Heralds Santa


Source: "alt.ufo.reports".

Stig

*******

>From rezpat@wantree.com.au Thu Dec 31 05:06:54 1998
Newsgroups: alt.ufo.reports
Subject: Monday 28th, UFO Sighting Australia,
From: Patricia Ziegler <rezpat@wantree.com.au>
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1998 12:06:54 +0800

This is taken directly from the Monday 28th Dec, Western
Australian Newspaper.

Flashing Lights Herald Santa

Twas the night before Christmas and all throughout the land not
a creature was stirring - except for a pulsating red, green and
white light, zigzagging throughout the northern Goldfeilds sky.

Security officers at the Murrin Murrin (sic!) nickel project
filed an unusual report after they watched the light for about
half an hour on Christmas eve.

The object, which appeared to be a bright star, was first seen
at 7.50pm low on the western horizon.

The security officers said in their report that, the star began
to pulsate red and green and white and traveling up and down in
sudden jerking movements, with the red and green lights becoming
more vivid.

It then sank lower and zigzagged from side to side before
emitting a burst of white light and disappearing below the tree
line.

David Smith, of Murrin Murrin, said the officers spent half an
hour watching the area where the object disappeared, but nothing
reappeared.

He said the object was traveling too quickly to be a





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 2

                  Fax That Got Stephens Off-Track On Bell?

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
Date: Sat, 02 Jan 1999 10:05:44 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 02 Jan 1999 10:05:44 -0500
Subject: Fax That Got Stephens Off-Track On Bell?



Source: Sightings On The Radio

http://www.sightings.com/ufo2/warninglet.htm


Strange Warning Letter Received By Richard Hoagland

1-1-99

Note - The following is a transcript of the Art Bell/Richard
Hoagland discussion of a warning letter received by Richard and
presented on the Art Bell program of 12-30/31-98. Transcript
prepared by

David Wedge <d_wedge@hotmail.com>

From Ufoseek@aol.com http://members.aol.com/ufoseek/warning.htm
Reference site
http://ww2.broadcast.com/artbell/archive98.html#dec98


After commercial and program comes on advance to 2:04 time point
in program.

Transcript of 2nd hour, reading of fax forwarded to Art Bell
from Richard Hoagland:

B. All right. I'm going to begin this segment with Richard. Now
as you know Richard Hoagland, over the past, I don't know it's
over a month or two has been documenting what he believes to be
weather control occurrences. With radar photographs, this is
part of what A.M. Stephens, Mr. Stephens is going to be talking
about but I have something that I want to bring up and I'm going
to let the audience be the judge of what we're going to be into
here. In passing and possibly not at all connected with any of
this is the fact that a man named Speaking Wind, a Native
American. Ah, who was on my program literally just days ago and
talked extensively about HAARP, about weather control. Ah, about
the whole thing had a massive heart attack and is now dead with
in days of doing the program. That much you may have found out
if you where on listining last night on the program. Now Richard
has been pursuing these radar images of what would appear to be,
some sort of weather control. Now I'm not a expert on radar but
on his site, you will see multiple images most of them near
military bases of, of weather patterns that are illuminating
what appears to be ah attempt at weather control or in fact
weather control. And I think we're into something very dangerous
here and I'm goin to read something in a moment from sombody
that I've had on the air before who I'm not going to identify
for obvious reasons. Ah, but Richard would you characterize this
person without identifying this person, please would you
characterize the person.

H. This is a very serious, individual, a technical individual
who has great expertise in the area of what I've termed
Hyperdimensional Physics and the extensions of Maxwell's
original work. He has had a background in black opps area.

B. Very heavlly credentialed.

H. Heavlly credentialed, very serious, not a frivolous person,
not a flight of fancy person, not a paranoid person.

B. Ah ump, I agree with that completely. Thats my personal
assessment to the audience. We're not going to give this
person's name for obvious reasons. I'm going to read you part of
what he sent to Richard, leaving a couple details that would
identify this person out, and you can make up your own mind
about what, what it all means. Richard I'm not obviously for
obvious reasons I'm not going to read, not going to read this
entire thing.

H. Sure

B. But I'm going to read enough so the audience understands what
we're up against here.

B. All right here we go. This was a response to Richard from
this person we both respect. This credentialed person Richard
had writtened to this credentialed person with respect to the,
radar images that are on the Enterprise Mission. com site.

Dear Richard,

Agree with much of what you have said but it doesn't change
things for me at all. As you know I have a completely different
notion of inquotes "aliens" and that whole scene. Very little
change from the old 1978 briefing presentation except the
Physics got better. In my view we ourselves created them from
the collective unconscious. So the critters remain rather
"insane", in quotes, like a waking nightmare. Hell, thats
precisely what they are. No longer any concern of mine as that
has been overridden by events. NOW LISTEN VERY CLOSELY (Bell
advises)! It's this simple. If I wish to live for even 48 hours
I cannot go into that or other things, he's referring now to
these, this weather control business. Let me repeat that. If I
wish to live for even 48 hours I can't go into that or the other
things. Or go high profile publicly. I won't do anyone any good
winding up dead very abruptly. Bluntly in my estimation my life
expectancy right now is about June of '99 if I fortunate.
Perhaps even only May if certain others here in the Rogue US
Groups have there way, maybe sooner. That's it. Nothing anyone
can do to prevent or effect that as a old soldier of - I omitted
a age here, a few days ago I accept the inevitable. It doesn't
change what I have to try to do in what little time I have left.
Time to do the McArther bit and just fade away. Most everyone
else may not be very far behind anyway. Nothing you or I or
anyone else can do can change what's coming down now. All the TV
shows and radio talk shows and such cannot change one hairs
breath. Only the Little Nation can avert it. Perhaps I give it a
50 a 75 percent probability no higher but would not argue that
50 percent is more correct. (pause)... let me see if I can go
on. alright I can. None of the conspiracies, alien plots, plans,
maneuvering, politics, Clintonestas, rogues, UFO researchers,
pontificators, intell. agencies, armed forces, scientific
communties, etc. have any further effect on any of this. It's
really simple. We have a pending strategic strike unparalleled
in all history now rapidly coming upon us. It's in place and
counting down and the initial preparation period has already
begun. At this point there are only two players in the game and
the US is not either one of them. Nothing the entire United
States can do can change anything at this point period. And
thats where I'm going to stop. There is more. But I respect this
individual, very highly. He is a credentialed individual and he
is scared out of his mind. It is his view if he were to proceed,
to go on the air with Richard his life would be over inside of
48 hours. Richard is that a fair assessment and reading?

H. Except for the characterization of scared out of his mind. I
think that more of a measured, there, there is so much blood in
the body as Jody, Carter once said, President Carter's Press
Secretery Jody Powell.

B. Um hm

H. And this individual has decided not to waste it on this
effort but to focus instead in low profile on those areas where
he thinks he can make a difference.

B. But he has clearly said here that if he were to go public
with this he would be dead in 48 hours. Now I didn't

H. (not clear)... from being scared witless.

B. All right.

H. All right. He's making a reasoned judgement. Now he also in
this same note warns me that if I pursue this course.

B. I know.

H. That I may in fact incur a similar fate.

B. I know.

H. And I had a discussion earlier about this. This is why the
previous two hours have been somewhat of a side show because
regardless of whether Paul Dore was behind or was not behind
this whole thing. Events have now rapidly escalated to where we
have discovered real data.

B. I understand that, I do understand that

H. (garbled) use specifics and possable real, threat and concern
to everyone. And there are people who may have died and maybe
about to die if they step forward and that's what we should
focus on tonight.

B. Yep, I completely agree with you and it's because of my
respect and understanding of the credentials of the individual
who wrote this that, you know I wouldn't say I'm scared out of
my wits. I have, I thought about it really hard and I'm sure
after reading this response you thought to Richard, you know
you've gone done a lot of roads in your career Richard some of
them have been crooked roads with dead ends and some have been,
very productive roads. The danger here is that you may be going
down a productive road that could get you killed.

H. We've discussed this at various bench marks in this long and
twisted investigation that we have shared and have told you
again and again. And I will tell the country tonight my firm
belief is the truth must out. And that high visibility is the
best protection. The people that we're up against the so called
rogue agencies that this individual refers to. They are not mad
men. They are not emotional idiots. They are not out for
revenge. They are out to keep secrets because they believe they
have the God given authority to decide what happens to all the
rest of us.

B. But this very, very reasoned very credentialed individual is
absolutely convinced that they wouldn't hesitate two seconds, to
take him out and sure as hell would ah, hesitate to take out you
or me.

H. Well I think that this individual is coming from a different
perspective. Remember he has spent his career on the inside. He
has spent his career in the shadows, he has spent.

B. Oh sure.

H. His career in the halls of power.

B. Well that, that that is what validates it's all the more.

H. From that perspective he does not approach this like you and
I do and my and I do basically because of my network years with
Walter. In that I really believe in the power of the American
people and the power of the First Amendment and I believe that
the only reason that we have made the progress we have made is
because we have shared freely. Even those things at the cutting
edge that some people have accused us of speculating wildly
about. The facts is that if I were to turn up dead tomorrow
morning there would be one remarkable hurrah that we in fact
where correct.

B. Um hmm

H. Clinton's problems began with the death of Vince Foster.
Bodies tend to focus. Remember I can count on among my friends
Ted Kopple, Walter, you obviously and many others that I would
hope would not stand by and simply - you know, wipe a tear and
put a rose on my grave. The fact is that exposure and the light
make the cock roaches go away. And that's my philosophy and I
will live by that.

B. And or, all right, ah.

[conversation changes to discussion of Robert A M Stephens ]







SIGHTINGS HOMEPAGE





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 2

                      Re: Sherman J. Larsen and Ufology

From: Gary Alevy <galevy@pipeline.com>
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 23:48:27 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 02 Jan 1999 10:24:15 -0500
Subject: Re: Sherman J. Larsen and Ufology


>From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: Sherman J. Larsen and Ufology
>Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1998 17:26:29 -0500

>>Date: Sun, 27 Dec 1998 19:59:37 -0500
>>From: Gary <galevy@pipeline.com>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>Subject: Re: Sherman J. Larsen and Ufology

>>>How long did Larsen serve in CIC, and precisely what did he do?

>>Dear Greg,

>>If you need any information on Sherm Larsen please contact my
>>good friend on this List, Jerome Clark. Jerry has stated
>>publicly that he knows everything there is to know about him.
>>In fact I am finding it hard to believe that he has not posted
>>this information to this List just to prove that he does know
>>everything.

>I take this to mean -- until proven otherwise -- that you don't
>know the answer to my very simple, very uncomplicated question.

>Greg Sandow

Now what kind of an author would I be if gave away the results
of interesting and expensive research on a "free" InterNet
listserve?   Some folks [you known who you are ;-)] are laboring
under the assumption that I am trying to convince you or sway
you in some way, when my observations of this list over the last
two years have shown that to be quite impossible. No, I am doing
something else entirely.

I knew full well in advance that several people would hit the
ceiling over the original messages but I was not interested in
the reactions of those people.  I was hoping only that the list
owner would keep the thing going long enough to engage some of
the people who don't post.  After all, as we know, much
important activity generated by a listserve goes on OFF the
list!  This activity is one of the truly valuable things about a
listserve: it can connect people not previously in contact with
each other.

The list owner has been most tolerant of controversy as this
thread has developed and I, at least, owe him a vote of thanks.
I owe my critics thanks as well for clarifying the issues some
of my future readers will have.  We don't have to respect each
other to find each other useful; and judging from the names,
insults and drivel my critics have directed at me, it is my
observation that they seem to enjoy a little primal scream
therapy!

Gary Alevy





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 2

                      Re: Sherman J. Larsen and Ufology

From: Gary Alevy <galevy@pipeline.com>
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1998 00:14:16 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 02 Jan 1999 10:28:01 -0500
Subject: Re: Sherman J. Larsen and Ufology


>From: "Stan Friedman" <fsphys@brunnet.net>
>To: "UFO UpDates - Toronto" <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Sherman J. Larsen and Ufology
>Date: Sat, 26 Dec 1998 22:48:08 -0400

><snip>

>I first met Allen Hynek in the late 1960s and saw him in a
>number of different places after that including his home, Idabel
>Epperson's home in LA ,at MUFON Conferences., Etc.

>I thought he was naive about both interstellar travel and
>government secrecy and I strongly believe that Jim McDonald was
>certainly a more persistent and better investigator. But I never
>saw the slightest hint of Allen covering things up.

>As I once said there is no point in criticizing a good washing
>machine for being a poor dryer. He was not a dynamic aggressive
>person and often sounded like an apologist ufologist. But I saw
>no sign of the things Gary has conjured up.

>Ditto for Sherm Larsen.

>First thought that came to mind was his following up my
>suggestion to Industrial Research and Development Magazine to
>devote one of their monthly reader reply polls to UFOs. Because
>of his actions they did it, twice.

>As I pointed out in IUR later, a majority of those professonals
>who expressed an opinion said UFOs are real.

>It is certainly not true that Allen and I agreed about
>everything. But I just can't find any basis for Gary's claims.

>Stan Friedman

Look Who's Running Down Dr. Hynek Now!

I'll say one thing for Allen Hynek, his erstwhile friends sure
do one heck of a job of "defending" him! That is, both Mr. Clark
and Mr. Friedman damn Dr. Hynek with faint praise...or praise
him with lukewarm damnation, take your pick. But it's odd. It's
like the "Reagan Defense" that was put up after the Iran/Contral
affair broke into the news and the President was asleep or out
of town when the various deals went down.

All respectable people said there wasn't anything to
Iran/Contra, and the President feigned incompetence or
inattention. But, you know, there WAS quite a bit to it and the
President WAS involved, or in a coma, take your pick.

Do people lie about their activities? Yes.
Do they dissemble? Yes.
Can they fool their friends, especially friends
who have good reason to want to think the best
of them? Double yes.
Will they ignore evidence any way they can when
their friends are involved? Yes.

I look at Dr. Hynek's career, closely, and it's almost funny,
how easily he re-invented himself after the Michigan disaster.
Using his personal qualities he was able to put everyone to
sleep, or rather, nearly everyone. As always, there were many
who preferred sleep, as do so many on this list today. But
perhaps a seed has been planted, a doubt raised. Remember, there
is much on the public record if you simply will look at it.

Does any of this matter? Probably not. That is, the "New
Ufology" is about to put itself, and just about everyone else,
to sleep -- out of boredom -- while the "Old Ufology" reinvents
the same wheel for the fourth or fifth time. By this time it's
all rather beside the point.

All of this is most interesting, in the sort of a sinking
sensational way that a crashing airplane probably gives as it
begins its final plunge.

Thanks ebk, Updates is an amazing resource.

Gary Alevy






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 2

                            Edgar Mitchell Book?

From: Jack Mayoros <maxroc@webtv.net>
Date: Fri, 1 Jan 1999 09:48:29 -0500 (EST)
Fwd Date: Sat, 02 Jan 1999 10:36:07 -0500
Subject: Edgar Mitchell Book?


Do you have the name of the book recently released by Edgar
Mitchell of Apollo 14 fame?

He was on Dateline last night but I don't know if it was a new
show or a repeat.

Happy New Year!






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 2

               PRESS RELEASE/Art Bell Censors NASA Contractor

From: Robert A.M. Stephens <sti3818@montana.com>
Date: Fri, 01 Jan 1999 16:17:31 +0000
Fwd Date: Sat, 02 Jan 1999 10:41:42 -0500
Subject: PRESS RELEASE/Art Bell Censors NASA Contractor




FOR RELEASE

Begin
---------

NASA Contractor Censored by Art Bell

"2:04 AM MST, 12-31-1998 NASA Contractor, Robert A.M. Stephens,
was cut off by Art Bell in his initial opening debate with
Richard Hoagland of the Enterprise Mission. The censorship
incidence happened on 12-30-1998 on Art Bell's popular late
night show, Coast to Coast, 34 minutes into the solicted
interview. There was no apparent reason.

Art Bell, for the first time, not for profanity, vulgarisms, or
for any other reason, stopped the release of truth. Probably the
first time truth has ever been uttered on the talk show host's
program, Coast to Coast. Bell was unavailable for comment.
Emails have not been answered.

It ended after Stephens had started to asked Hoagland why
Hoagland had told ex-employees they should leave Washington
D.C., because as Hoagland had told them: Washington D.C. was
going to drop nuclear weapons on itself. This was the first of
200 questions Stephens had prepared for the supposed 4 hour
'debate'. After this, Bell cut Stephens out of the program.
Contact made by this reporter divulged that said employees were
advised as Stephens claimed they were and were willing to come
forward on Bell's show if need be. Bell stopped this
questioning.

For some reason, connected to continued falsehoods and lies
perpetrated by Richard Hoagland, of the Enterprise Mission, his
close accomplice in lie-macabre', Art Bell terminated the
solicted interview with Mr. Stephens. Stephens had just asked
Mr. Bell to have Hoagland then field questions since Hoagland
had become unresponsive and incoherent, and suddenly, Stephens
was silenced. Without explanation, the line went dead according
to Stephens and thousands of listeners who were outraged at the
act.

Stephens said after the strange censorship act, "This entire
group, Art Bell-conspiracy-UFOs et al, is nothing short of
scientifc terrorism. It assaults the senses with such lies and
dementia mixed with selective irrationality that is nothing
short of a form of end millenenium insantiy."

Stephens had hoped to touch on subjects on the show as critical
assessment of NASA as well as triumphs and new, never before
released 'insider' information on new NASA exploits. Instead, he
was censored. Stephens had also prepared a 200 question list to
asked Hoagland thinking this was going to be a true 'debate'.

Stephens will be appearing on several other shows upcoming
shortly as well as an online interview on PBS regarding the 'Art
Bell Disinformation Show'. Asking the 20 year esteemed NASA
contractor why Bell did this heinous act, the very thing Bell
loves to rail against on his show, he said, "they both seem to
be involved in some sort of disinformation campaign of insidious
felonious lies. Art Bell called me a week ago and asked if I
would 'debate' Richard Hoagland. I did not know it was some sort
of trap, since all other shows I have been on have been
professionally handled and presented. This is the first time
ever, doing interviews on main network shows and others in all
media, that someone shut me off like that. I just wanted
clarification on the vicious and malicious lies the Enterprise
Mission and Richard Hoagland propagate against NASA along with
other bizarre claims toward organizations and other innocent
victims. But then that whole fringe group is tied in with other
malcontents." Stephens said. In a terse email to Stephens, Art
Bell told the NASA contractor, "you were incoherent, MAN. What
happened to you?"

The question is, actually, what happened to Mr. Truth turned
Censorship: Art Bell?

The Eclipse of a one time tell all and critique of coverup, now
lost in a sad demise of self delusion. This is the same man who
recently asked a guest on his show: "....how many times did you
hit the alien?" That of course, was not censored.

Release: NBC, MSNBC, AP, CBS, ABC, Netscape, Rueters, NY Times,
Jane's Weekly, BBC, Tokyo Times, Washington Post ---
reported-mdjohnson

-----------
END

-- Robert A.M. Stephens
Contractor, NASA
Shuttle Documentation Program
KSC-PA/PIB-codeMSF/shuttle
sti3818@montana.com
406-745-3818
http://www.borderlands.com/rams/rams.htm

Stillwater Mills =991998, All Rights Reserved.
Release number 22..114-12-31-1998 =A9






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 2

                         Stephens' Response To Bell

From: Robert A. M. Stephens <sti3818@montana.com>
Date: Fri, 01 Jan 1999 16:56:49 +0000
Fwd Date: Sat, 02 Jan 1999 10:49:28 -0500
Subject: Stephens' Response To Bell


ArtBell@aol.com wrote:

>Robert,

>You had one full hour to put some real issues on the table. What

>you did do was cause me to wonder about your mental stability. I

>have interviewed some pretty strange people over the years but
>you take the cake.

>Had I let that insanity go for more then 1 full hour, somebody
>would have taken ME off the air, and with good reason. Your
>phone number was sent to me by Peter Gersten at the top of your
>Published piece in the CAUS letter. I thought Peter meant for me

>to call you and let you challenge Richard on the air. It was a
>well written piece by you and sounded SANE. What the hell
>happened when you got on the air? You may have good and bad
>days, that was a very bad one.

>                                Art Bell

Art,

(from Robert)

You may discredit me all you wish. You were to be a moderator, a
host, per se, not a judge under the solicted venue. You and
Hoagland revealed what you represent. It is not subject to
further debate.

Sorry, Roper and DataWatch international media survey disagrees
with your above assessment. In fact, it is about to be seen that
was your worst day. You erred.

Reap the Whirlwind Bell


-- Robert A.M. Stephens
Contractor, NASA
Shuttle Documentation Program
KSC-PA/PIB-codeMSF/shuttle
sti3818@montana.com
406-745-3818





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 2

                      Re: Bell Cuts-Off R.A.M. Stephens

From: michael Hodges <mwhod@roanoke.infi.net>
Date: Fri, 01 Jan 1999 12:25:36 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 02 Jan 1999 10:52:36 -0500
Subject: Re: Bell Cuts-Off R.A.M. Stephens


>Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1998 10:20:36 -0600
>From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: Bell Cuts-Off R.A.M. Stephens

<snip>

>>-- Robert A.M. Stephens

>I heard the program sir -- I think that this is what occurs when
>you open your mouth, insert your foot, and then attempt to echo
>internationally. I think you got more civility than you deserve.


Alfred,

I was wondering if you could share the reasoning for your
apparent poor attitude in this post against Robert Stephens.






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 2

                               Re: Help Needed

From: Sean Jones <tedric@tedric.demon.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 1 Jan 1999 18:44:56 +0000
Fwd Date: Sat, 02 Jan 1999 10:55:00 -0500
Subject: Re: Help Needed


>Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 08:40:12 -0500 (EST)
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Bob Shell <bob@bobshell.com>
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Help Needed

Hi Bob

This reply of yours slipped me by but now :-) I caught up with it.

>>Hi people

>>I'm looking for two articles or information on etc etc and I was
>>wondering if any of you learned people 'out there' could help me
>>please.

>>1) A little while ago there was a story about some science lab
>>transmitting a concerto/concert via tachyon beam at speeds
>>calculated to be faster than light.

I found this article in the "New Scientist" from April 1995!
Only it wasn't tachyons but photons.
I can send you a copy if you wish.


>>2) Recently there was another article about the universe.
>>Apparently todays scientists have "discovered" that the universe
>>is actualy bigger than they first thought.


>Sean,

>Don't know about that first one. Never heard that.

>There is an article in the current Scientific American about the
>new discoveries about the size of the universe.

Is there any chance at all that you could photocopy this for me
and post it to me please. I would be happy to pay any costs
incurred.







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 2

                       New Images Placed On RPIT Site

From: Neil Morris <neil@adm1.ph.man.ac.uk>
Date: Fri, 01 Jan 1999 12:11:03 -0800
Fwd Date: Sat, 02 Jan 1999 10:58:22 -0500
Subject: New Images Placed On RPIT Site



All on UpDates,

I've today place 2 new images on my web site that address more
of the features in the "weather balloon" debris photographed on
July 8th 1947 in Gen Ramey's office at Fort Worth Tx.

The first is a small section of the "balloon envelope" debris
from the MarcelRight picture. This shows a number of features
but the two most significant being, the fact that the "2" like
symbol spotted in the RameyDubose image is here reproduced in
"embossed" form on the "fabric" and secondly a "cross" like
emblem can be clearly seen standing out lighter on a dark
"shield" like background.

The second image again has a number of items to be seen two of
which are, a set of clearly identified raised symbols on a beam
which look remarkably like a "7" and a "5" until you look very
closly at how they are constructed, and a curious raised "disk".
The image also features what might be written/printed script
seen on a folded over section of one of the "foil sheets".

The 2 images can be accessed by following the links marked
"updated 1st Jan 1999" from the webpage:

http://adm2.ph.man.ac.uk/ftw-pics/new-1/index.htm

The new images are at the bottom of the 2 updated pages.

Best Regards and a Happy New Year,

Neil.


-------------------------------------------------------

Neil Morris@Home.
Email:             Neil@adm1.ph.man.ac.uk






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 2

                    Re: (1994) NEXRAD Weather Radar Info

From: Bob Soetebier <bikebob@mo.net>
Date: Fri, 1 Jan 1999 22:30:09 -0600 (CST)
Fwd Date: Sat, 02 Jan 1999 11:10:33 -0500
Subject: Re: (1994) NEXRAD Weather Radar Info


(My apologies for cross-posting this. But, it would seem the
best way not to lose anything in the "translation". --Bob S.)

>Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1998 22:20:06 -0800
>From: Michael Theroux
>Subject: Re: IUFO: (1994) NEXRAD Weather Radar info


>-> IUFO Mailing List

>At 10:14 PM 12/31/1998 -0600, you wrote:

-> IUFO Mailing List

>>Considering the current [Hoagland] weather radar "anomalies"
>>controversy, I thought you all might (or, might not) find the
>>following (appended below) information about NEXRAD weather
>>radar of interest. The first part is information that I
>>personally typed up and had subsequently publicly posted on "The
>>Weather Room" subject public message area of a St. Louis
>>[Missouri] metro area "WWIV"-based electronic BBS back in 1994.
>>The second and third parts are public responses from the
>>"moderator" ("Badger #106"...who also happened to be an employee
>>of the National Weather Service facility in nearby St. Charles
>>County, Missouri) of "The Weather Room" sub to the NEXRAD
>>controversy information I had posted.


>>Bob Soetebier

>>St. Louis County, Missouri

-------------------------------------------------------------

>Bike Bob,

>I don't understand why anyone bothers to post such things
>without doing any research. This article continually refer to
>the NEXRAD (not NEXTRAD) Radars as "ELF/Microwave" radars when
>the frequency range is 2700Mhz to 3000Mhz. Where does the ELF
>come from? It has nothing to do with its low PRF. While you got
>the pronunciation of Ojai right, but you misspelled it
>throughout. Please see the following URLs:
>http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/pub/data/nexrad/terms.html
>http://www.osf.noaa.gov/nnow.htm (this one will give some
>insight into the problems associated with NEXRAD)
>http://www.met.tamu.edu/class/Metr475/lab6.html
>http://www.trytel.com/~rvarsen/tutorials_WA.htm

>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>Michael Theroux
>Director
>Borderland Sciences Research Foundation - Since 1945
>http://www.borderlands.com
>theroux@borderlands.com
>Ph. 707.825.7733 FAX: 707.825.7779
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Date: Fri, 1 Jan 1999 22:21:44 -0600 (CST)
From: bikebob <bikebob@mo.net>
To: I-UFO <iufo@world.std.com>
Subject: Re: IUFO: (1994) NEXRAD Weather Radar info

I stand corrected. It seems that, at least in this case, Mr.
Theroux appears to be quite right on all counts.

It was my fault for not taking the extra time to add a note of
the fact that I was passing the posting/s along in the
"original" state: Both my previously posted information
(including my original misspellings of NEXRAD as "NEXTRAD";
etc.) along with the two *clarifying* public responses by
"Badger #106" (the National Weather Service employee). (In
retrospect, had I noted that fact, it might have saved both Mr.
Theroux, and myself, some time.)

I do, though, want to thank Mr. Theroux for taking the time to
make his comments. I also wish to thank him for his passing
along the URLs (quoted/noted below).

BTW...when I just happended to catch that TV show (to which I
was only partially listening, while I worked upon the computer
at the same time -- as was noted in my original information from
1994) discussing "NEXRAD", that was, more or less, my first
introduction to the issues surrounding the technology. (I'm
*still* not all that familiar with it. However, if/when I get
the chance/time to check out the URLs Mr. Theroux has
referenced, maybe that will not remain the case.)


Bob Soetebier


 Tailwinds to you...  See you ON the road!

 /// BICYCLE BOB ///  bikebob@mo.net


--------------------------------------






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 2

                         Mars Probe To Launch Sunday

From: Steven L. Wilson Sr <Ndunlks@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 2 Jan 1999 00:44:57 EST
Fwd Date: Sat, 02 Jan 1999 11:16:44 -0500
Subject: Mars Probe To Launch Sunday


NASA Launches New Probe of Red Planet
To the Martian Pole

By Kenneth Chang
ABCNEWS.com

Jan. 1 -- New Year, time for a new mission to Mars.

Next up in NASA=92s continuing barrage of spacecraft to the Red
Planet is Mars Polar Lander, which will be the first probe to
land near one of the poles.

Was Mars Warm and Wet?
A companion spacecraft, the Mars Climate Orbiter, was launched
last month. These latest missions are designed to explore the
history of the Martian climate. While they won=92t directly look
for life, they will look at whether the conditions hospitable to
life once existed on the planet.


Launch opportunities (all times EST)

Jan. 3  3:21:10 pm
Jan. 4  3:13:34 pm
Jan. 5  3:05:42 pm
Jan. 6  2:57:33 pm
Jan. 7  2:49:03 pm
Jan. 8  2:40:03 pm
Jan. 9  2:30:05 pm
Jan. 10  2:19:08 pm
Jan. 11  2:22:03 pm
Jan. 12  2:25:59 pm
Jan. 13  2:43:06 pm
Jan. 14  2:47:10 pm
Jan. 15  2:27:55 pm
Jan. 16  2:35:07 pm
Jan. 17  2:25:28 pm
Jan. 18  2:15:32 pm
Jan. 19  2:05:15 pm
Jan. 20  1:54:44 pm
Jan. 21  1:51:40 pm
Jan. 22  1:41:11 pm
Jan. 23  1:30:17 pm
Jan. 24  1:19:18 pm
Jan. 25  1:08:05 pm
Jan. 26  12:56:41 pm
Jan. 27  12:53:45 pm

Equipment on Mars Polar Lander, which will land at Mars in
December, includes a robotic arm that will scoop up a few inches
of soil for chemical analysis, weather-observing instruments and
a microphone that will be the first to pick up and broadcast
sounds from another planet.

Beneath the Surface
Also on Mars Polar Lander are two basketball-size probes that
will detach from the main spacecraft about five minutes before
entering the Martian atmosphere and then literally crash into
the planet at about 400 miles per hour. That will allow the part
of the probes to penetrate three feet into the Martian soil in
an effort to find frozen water there.

One of the mysteries of Mars is whether all its water has gone.
Huge floods almost certainly carved the gigantic canyons on the
Martian surface, but today the surface is dry. The polar ice
caps contain only a fraction of the water believed to have once
bathed the planet. Many planetary scientists believe the rest of
the water is frozen beneath the surface.

In order to line up the trajectory of Mars Polar Lander with its
destination near the Martian south pole, its launch has to timed
literally to the second. The first chance to launch comes Sunday
10 seconds after 3:21 pm EST. These near-instantaneous
once-a-day launch opportunities continue through Jan. 27.

Weather predictions gave a 30 percent chance of a launch on
Sunday, 60 percent on Monday.

Cost Cutter
Mars Polar Lander continues NASA=92s trend of packing more into
less. Mars Polar Lander and Climate Orbiter cost a combined $190
million -- two missions for less than the $262 million price tag
of Mars Pathfinder two years ago, which itself was a remarkable
cost cutter compared to earlier NASA missions. The failed Mars
Observor mission that disappeared without a trace in 1993 cost
$1 billion.


Here=92s an overview of Mars Polar Lander:

Spacecraft Facts

What: Mars Polar Lander

Why: To explore the environment near the Martian south pole.

When: Scheduled for launch 3:21 pm, Jan. 3 from Cape Canaveral,
Fla.

Destination: After a 11-month journey, the spacecraft will enter
the Martian atmosphere Dec. 3, 1999 and land near the Martian
south pole.

Size: 3.5 feet tall, 12 feet wide
Weight: 1,270 lbs.
Mission cost: Together with Mars Climate Orbiter, $190 million


Copyright =A91998 ABCNEWS and Starwave Corporation.








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 2

                     [Fwd - Stephens] Re: Art Bell show

From: Robert A.M. Stephens <sti3818@montana.com>
Date: Sat, 02 Jan 1999 06:45:31 +0000
Fwd Date: Sat, 02 Jan 1999 11:27:44 -0500
Subject: [Fwd - Stephens] Re: Art Bell show


James Arthur wrote:

>Hello Robert. Now THAT was Radio! I thought it interesting that
>RCH did not deny sending the e-mails that you mentioned. But
>instead said something to the effect that What are you doing with
>private mails, and how do you prove they are from whom you say
>they are from. There was not (that I heard) any categorical denial.
>You should post those E-mails with follow up statements from those
>who have divulged to you that RCH has indeed done those things.


Super mail. I did give the fact that those referenced had not
only wrote me, unsolicited, but had called to and would be more
than anxious to come forward. Bell silenced this. Who: (Dr.
Richard Sauder, Joe Gill, Dr. Mavis French and a man named
Lindsey?)  Dr. Ralph Greenberg and Dr. Bruce Cornet also had
information to help me with as well as a publication called
NEXUS (?) had all sort of documented data. This all, along with
200 questions I had prepared directly from Hoagland's web page,
were in my sheaf for the debate. Some I had tried to get to
Hoagland (via Peter Gersten) for Hoagland to have as data so he
could defend himself. (normal grace in a debate format). They
were data that I got from Dr. Greenberg's page, (fine page) my
own data, all on the issue of 'recurrence' numbers such as 19.5,
and 33. I was going to devastate his claims. I wanted to take
issue with his lack of Heim data regarding orbital incidence of
spacecraft regarding constellations and such in the doctored and
stolen NASA photos he has on his site.

Out of 200 questions, I got 1 out and was cut off.

>One thing is for sure, you threw them for a loop. You blew them away so
>bad that the only defense they could put foreward was that they could
>not understand what you were saying. But when asked for the evidence
>that RCH was a liar, thats exactly what you did. This of course remains
>as well to be backed up by supporting data (IE the actual E-mails with
>documentation supporting their credibility).

See above.

>Your attack on Hoagland smacks of another scandal unfolding, Clinton
>refuses to admit he lied. Hoagland on the other hand did not admit to
>sending those E-mails, yet did not exactly dent it either. However, If
>he did send them, they seem to be of such a personal nature that he may
>actually BELIEVE the possibilities of this Nuclear strike to N.Y.

I didn't care. His personal dementia was not subject to
analysis. His pathos and lies were.


Thank you for the good assessing mail.

Let it be known: Hoagland is the dregs of things. I do not
undertand why he is tolerated. He isn't science. He is truly a
pathological liar out to do harm. And he does. I will no longer
edit the 'nice' guy stuff. Journalist should be forewarned.
Enough is enough.

Read the formal statement passing around on the internet by Dr.
Bruce Cornet for which we are getting together on a team effort
with some NASA folks, if possible, on his own compelling engima
and doing this effort from a real science point of view.

Dr. Cornet's situation is a classic to embrace. I will be
linking to his page along with Dr. Greenberg's also. I encourage
people to consult these gentleman's pages and sites. Cornet's is
totally new to me, as you are all aware since I am 'dumfounded'
by this field at this early stage. Dr. Greenberg's expresses the
freedom of math.

sincerely,

-- Robert A.M. Stephens
Contractor, NASA
Shuttle Documentation Program
KSC-PA/PIB-codeMSF/shuttle
sti3818@montana.com
406-745-3818





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 2

                            Re: Carl and Richard

From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
Date: Sat, 02 Jan 1999 08:49:43 +0000
Fwd Date: Sat, 02 Jan 1999 11:34:49 -0500
Subject: Re: Carl and Richard


>From: Doug Paul <dougpaul@river.netrover.com>
>Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1998 16:21:38 -0500
>Fwd Date: Sat, 02 Jan 1999 08:08:07 -0500
>Subject: Carl and Richard

Previously, Doug asked:

>I've been reading this list for about 3 years now and have
>noticed a collective perspective that never fails to interest
>me.

<snip>

>My year-end question, therefore, is: why do most people on this
>list dismiss almost everything Richard Hoagland writes, does or
>says, while admiring (dare I say worship?)almost verything Carl
>Sagan wrote, did or said?

Happy New Year, Doug!

Three years? I don't know; I've only been with the list about
four months and I've heard enough dissing of Carl Sagan to last
me a life time. You might want to go back through the archives,
starting with the ill-fated "Failure of the Science of Obergian
Debunking" thread to get an earfull about Sagan. In addition,
you might check out any of the threads about SETI as well. Both
Hoagland and Sagan have their detractors, each for different
reasons. But "worship" of Sagan? I don't see it. Not on this
List.

Take care,






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 2

                      Re: Bell Cuts-Off R.A.M. Stephens

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Sat, 02 Jan 1999 07:15:39 -0600
Fwd Date: Sat, 02 Jan 1999 11:37:46 -0500
Subject: Re: Bell Cuts-Off R.A.M. Stephens


>Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1998 14:46:11 -0500
>From: Lea H. MacDonald <inventor@kingston.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: Bell Cuts-Off R.A.M. Stephens

>[Non-Sub Post]

>>Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1998 11:32:27 -0600
>>From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Bell Cuts-Off R.A.M. Stephens

>>>Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1998 02:43:55 +0000
>>>From: Robert A.M. Stephens <sti3818@montana.com>
>>>To: updates@globalserve.net
>>>Subject: [Fwd: Very Well Done Robert!]

>>>Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1998 03:52:58 -0500
>>>From: Lea H. MacDonald <inventor@kingston.net>
>>>To: sti3818@montana.com
>>>Subject: Very Well Done Robert!

>>>I can't say how proud I am of you! :) Bell was reduced to having
>>>to terminate the show in order to keep Hoaxland from being
>>>reduced to ashes in an intellectual fire storm! You Sir, are
>>>walking tall!

>><snip>

>>>_Very_well_done_!! :))
>
>>>Very, Very Best Regards,
>
>>>Lea MacDonald.
>
>>With all respect ma'am, I don't think we listened to the same
>>show.
>
>With all due respect Sir, you, like Hoagland, should check your
>data before responding!
>
>I'm a guy!
>
>Very Best Regards, Lea MacDonald.

Not in here! That's what I love about this medium -- just motes
of pure consciousness! You ought to give it a try; it set's you
free! Moreover, your reminder regarding irrelevant sex suggests
you may be obsessing over the _wrong_ data, much less
_unchecked_ data <g>.

Regards exceeding those cast at me, sir, respectfully --

Lehmberg@snowhill.com
--
Explore the Alien View!
Ponder the Wit & Wisdom of Ching Chow!

http://www.fortunecity.com/roswell/arecibo/46/

<Updated 29 December>

John Ford Restoration Fund -- Send your checks and
money orders to _me_, Alfred Lehmberg
(cut out the lawyers, they got their's) at:
304 Melbourne Drive, Enterprise AL, 36330. Strict records kept.

"Only thin, _very light_ envelopes with a return address will be
accepted <g>." ~~~ $225.00 pledged -- $125.00 collected ~~~

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see from
afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, while burning at the
fundamentalist's stake.





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 2

                            Alfred's Odd Ode #287

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Sat, 02 Jan 1999 07:37:27 -0600
Fwd Date: Sat, 02 Jan 1999 11:38:54 -0500
Subject: Alfred's Odd Ode #287


Apology to MW #287 (For January 2, 1999)

Demoted to the status of another mouth to feed, the new born are
a horror _and_ a treat. On the one hand they continue what it
was that *something* started; on the other they are parasitic
fleas. On the one hand they're a savior, on the other they
detract from the bounty that humanity has made. On the one hand
they are _wondrous_ with potentials of the gods, on the other --
tiny devils we've betrayed!

We teach them infidelity, and we disrespect their brains. We
ridicule their innocence, and teach the wrong refrains. We
socialize them mindless, and we hook them on mere sports. Some
try and teach them "God" in school -- despite the bad reports.
We treat them like the children we invent but never _are_;
discounting the experience, we distract them from the stars. We
lie suggesting worship for the framers of a system that exults a
landed gentry as the cure for human schism. We feed them vague
distortions of the truth on UFO's. We obfuscate those issues
with a finger in our nose. Pretending we have answers where we,
point in fact, have none, we add to their contention that we're
finished, pointless -- done!

The kids all know the deal, and they'll hate us if they can.
They resent the pap we feed them 'cause the truth got hard to
stand. They hate our lack of courage, and the way we rape the
planet. They hate their bland coercion, and the reasons we have
planned it. They hate that YOU resent them 'cause, as yet, they
have no blame. You envy them their innocence, and the fact they
have _no shame_. You hate them, their reaction to a FLEET of
UFO's <g>, is to clap their hands in fearless glee, and dance up
on their toes.

They hate that they're demoted to another mouth to feed. They
hate you don't fulfill, in them, their truthful, honest need.
They hate you don't believe them, and they hate that you don't
care; they hate that you discount their lives as shallow, futile
-- bare. They hate you don't give credit; they hate that
_you're_ not real. It's why they may go crazy, why they drop out
-- miss the deal. They've had the *best* of teachers, those too
young, or "dead of brain." Education is a low rent field, the
profession's _warped_ and _stained_.

What's this to do with UFO's? It's kids aren't trained to see!
What we tell them they should look at, we must _show_ could make
them free. The way of it must set them off, to soar among the
clouds, to loose them from our tethers, and to teach them useful
doubt. If we want them to respect us, we respect them _first_,
in turn. We cop to crass inequity, and we show there's _more_ to
learn! Do we breed a race of liars to commit continued crime? Do
we _insist_ the same mistakes are made _another_ time? Are we
the ones (who wallow in a sickness rife with pus) to _pretend_
we're doing right by them -- to turn them into us?

Lehmberg@snowhill.com

The child _is_ the father to the man. Seems a great time, in a
period of wealth like there has NEVER been (with NO thanks to a
rabid right, or anarchist left) . . .to cop to it, treat the
kids as we would _individually_ be treated, and discover that
with regards to them -- less _is_ assuredly more <g>. Lastly,
know that their world is more vital to them than our world. It
is filled with challenges, threats, and anxious priorities we
have forgotten. It's up to us to provide the bridge and
relevance to our present _contrived_ reality that would repel
them if they only knew. But that's _our_ problem, a problem that
withers away into startlingly obvious when confronted at last by
the generic genuine. <g>.

Restore John Ford!


--
Explore the Alien View!
Ponder the Wit & Wisdom of Ching Chow!

http://www.fortunecity.com/roswell/arecibo/46/

<Updated 29 December>

John Ford Restoration Fund -- Send your checks and
money orders to _me_, Alfred Lehmberg
(cut out the lawyers, they got their's) at:
304 Melbourne Drive, Enterprise AL, 36330. Strict records kept.

"Only thin, _very light_ envelopes with a return address will be
accepted <g>." ~~~ $225.00 pledged -- $125.00 collected ~~~

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see from
afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, while burning at the
fundamentalist's stake.





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 2

                      Re: Bell Cuts-Off R.A.M. Stephens

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Sat, 02 Jan 1999 08:00:53 -0600
Fwd Date: Sat, 02 Jan 1999 11:40:31 -0500
Subject: Re: Bell Cuts-Off R.A.M. Stephens


>From: Keith Wyatt <kew@teleport.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: Bell Cuts-Off R.A.M. Stephens
>Date: Fri, 01 Jan 1999 04:00:14 GMT

>On Thu, 31 Dec 1998 11:10:06 -0500, you wrote:

>>Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1998 02:43:55 +0000
>>From: Robert A.M. Stephens <sti3818@montana.com>
>>To: updates@globalserve.net
>>Subject: [Fwd: Very Well Done Robert!]

>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>Mr Stephens,

>You are correct about Richard Hoagland in one way. He is so
>deluded with conspiracys that he thinks they are true.

Yeah -- but Kieth. Your unspoken suggestion is that there is NO
conspiracy, and that doesn't work either. Man -- the world is
_alive_ with conspiracy; you can bank on it.

>How many
>people remember when Richard C. Hoagland claimed that pictures
>from NASA showed Glass structures on the moon?

Yeah -- what about that? One more anomaly that never got a good
look.

>How many times
>has Richard Hoagland made outlandish claims only to be proven
>wrong?

Proven? None that I know about, but I remember some where he was
proven right, . . .Salt water oceans on Ganymede?

>Richard Hoagland lives in his own world and Art Bell even
>takes him with a grain of salt. Everything that goes wrong with
>a NASA mission is some 19.5 conspiracy.

. . .May be! The only SURE thing is that we are not doing any
real looking to find out! In parable, a CIA proclamation that
it's straight is not overly convincing to _me_. There's IS
something FUNNY going on, pardner -- You suggest that there is
NOT?

>IMHO,

>Keith


Me too -- Lehmberg@snowhill.com

Explore the Alien View!
Ponder the Wit & Wisdom of Ching Chow!

http://www.fortunecity.com/roswell/arecibo/46/

<Updated 29 December>

John Ford Restoration Fund -- Send your checks and
money orders to _me_, Alfred Lehmberg
(cut out the lawyers, they got their's) at:
304 Melbourne Drive, Enterprise AL, 36330. Strict records kept.

"Only thin, _very light_ envelopes with a return address will be
accepted <g>." ~~~ $225.00 pledged -- $125.00 collected ~~~

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see from
afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, while burning at the
fundamentalist's stake.





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 2

                           Re: Cough, Korf, Ahem!

From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@connectmmic.net>
Date: Sat, 02 Jan 1999 11:30:44 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 02 Jan 1999 11:43:22 -0500
Subject: Re: Cough, Korf, Ahem!


>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
>Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1998 13:12:04 EST
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Re: Cough, Korf, Ahem!

>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@connectmmic.net>
>>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Cough, Korf, Ahem!
>>Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 22:42:07 -0500

<snip>

>But it took a man with (probably, I don't know you, Serge)
>no experience whatever as a marketing genius to make history for
>Freshly Made!

Jim,

Well, I had the choice between what I posted and the following:

"All the time I was watching the show, I had the impression
someone was telling me to go FOX myself."

<snip>

>Gosh.  I should seriously consider hanging up my three Ph.D.'s
>in Gorilla Marketing for missing out on that one.  What a
>dimbulb I am.

You are still experiencing some secondary effects of a brief
exposure to ____ _____ _____ <auto-censored>.  It won't last.

<snip>

>Dear Mr. Kal Courgh... Cork, Krofff, whatever, I love you.
>What's more, I support everything you do.  You, Sir, are a
>genius the likes of which I haven't seen since Fromage.

<snip>

Great rehearsal of the dumb-dumb stuff.  But if I were you, I'd
be careful, Kal could take you seriously.

<snip>

>If you thought that Chees vendor's site was great, wait'll you
>see ours!  The Kal Kropf (say, do I have that spelling
>right?).... the Kal Kropf Fatima Riddle Solved Web site.
>Finally revealed, the secret of Mary whatshername!

Why not:

Finally revealed, the secret of Mary whatshername
by Kal whatashame

eh?

Take care,

Chuckling all the way as I wrote this,

Serge Salvaille, Mr.





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 2

                          Re: Edgar Mitchell Book?

From: Sue Koviovs <bradford@globalserve.net>
Date: Sat, 02 Jan 1999 11:30:49 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 02 Jan 1999 11:47:21 -0500
Subject: Re: Edgar Mitchell Book?



>From: Jack Mayoros <maxroc@webtv.net>
>Date: Fri, 1 Jan 1999 09:48:29 -0500 (EST)
>To: updates@globalserve.net (UFO UpDates - Toronto)
>Subject: Edgar Mitchell Book?

>Do you have the name of the book recently released by Edgar
>Mitchell of Apollo 14 fame?
>He was on Dateline last night but I don't know if it was a new
>show or a repeat.

Web search only brought up one book:

'The Way of the Explorer; An Apollo Astronaut's Journey Through
the Material and Mystical Worlds'

by

Mitchell, Edgar and Williams, Dwight; Retail Price: $24.95;
Hardcover; Published in 1996.

Sue





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 2

                      Re: Bell Cuts-Off R.A.M. Stephens

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Sat, 02 Jan 1999 10:33:30 -0600
Fwd Date: Sat, 02 Jan 1999 11:50:04 -0500
Subject: Re: Bell Cuts-Off R.A.M. Stephens


>Date: Fri, 01 Jan 1999 12:25:36 -0500
>From: michael Hodges <mwhod@roanoke.infi.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Bell Cuts-Off R.A.M. Stephens

>>Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1998 10:20:36 -0600
>>From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>Subject: Re: Bell Cuts-Off R.A.M. Stephens

><snip>

>>>-- Robert A.M. Stephens

>>I heard the program sir -- I think that this is what occurs when
>>you open your mouth, insert your foot, and then attempt to echo
>>internationally. I think you got more civility than you deserve.

>Alfred,

>I was wondering if you could share the reasoning for your
>apparent poor attitude in this post against Robert Stephens.

>Michael Hodges

Sure, Mr. Hodges.

_Forgetting_ his obfuscation in an E-mail (forwarded to me by
UFO UpDates) where he ignored my simple questions regarding his
proclamation on STS 48, but derisively described his strange
predilection to pay others to urinate on him, and that I might
do the same thing <?!?>-- _continued_ the same _kind_ of
disjunct, impossible to follow, and seemingly disturbed
reasoning on Art Bell's show with Mr. Hoagland.

His discourse was incontinent, self contradicting, murky, and
insulting at _best_. His testimony _precludes_ the existence of
anomaly, conspiracy, and high, high strangeness which I have
seen with my own eyes, so is, then, an ideological opponent I
feel compelled to help debate, unmask, and otherwise expose.

It's not personal, as you seem to intimate, just my two cents to
a seeming prevaricator.

I understand he did the same thing on the Jeff Rense show. What
do you find to _defend_ in such a performance?

Lehmberg@snowhill.com
--
Explore the Alien View!
Ponder the Wit & Wisdom of Ching Chow!

http://www.fortunecity.com/roswell/arecibo/46/

<Updated 29 December>

John Ford Restoration Fund -- Send your checks and
money orders to _me_, Alfred Lehmberg
(cut out the lawyers, they got their's) at:
304 Melbourne Drive, Enterprise AL, 36330. Strict records kept.

"Only thin, _very light_ envelopes with a return address will be
accepted <g>." ~~~ $225.00 pledged -- $125.00 collected ~~~

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see from
afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, while burning at the
fundamentalist's stake.





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 2

                           Happy New Year To All!

From: Roy Hale <roy_hale@yahoo.com>
Date: Sat, 2 Jan 1999 08:39:21 -0800 (PST)
Fwd Date: Sat, 02 Jan 1999 11:51:38 -0500
Subject: Happy New Year To All!


Hi All,

I would just like to say Happy New Year, to all of my colleagues
World-Wide.

And thank you Errol for a real great Forum for debate over the
last year.

Roy Hale,

(Proof By Perseverance)Watch The Skies !






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 2

                            Re: Carl and Richard

From: Roger R. Prokic <rprokic@earthlink.net>
Date: Sat, 2 Jan 1999 08:46:55 -0800 (PST)
Fwd Date: Sat, 02 Jan 1999 11:59:46 -0500
Subject: Re: Carl and Richard


>Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1998 16:21:38 -0500
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>From: Doug Paul <dougpaul@river.netrover.com>
>Subject: Carl and Richard

>I've been reading this list for about 3 years now and have
>noticed a collective perspective that never fails to interest
>me.

>I have read Richard C. Hoagland's book, "The Monuments of Mars:
>A City on the Edge of Forever". I enjoyed it greatly and
>thought what he had to say about Mars made sense. I have also
>read some stuff by Carl Sagan on the search for
>extraterrestrial life--that was the title of his last book I
>believe, and was no so impressed.

<snip>

Have you ever heard Carl Sagan on the Art Bell show? <g>



Roger R. Prokic
Telecom Design Lead
Mars Surveyor Program
Lockheed Martin Astronautics
Denver, Colorado USA





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 2

                              Filer's Files #52

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
Date: Sat, 02 Jan 1999 21:43:27 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 02 Jan 1999 21:43:27 -0500
Subject: Filer's Files #52





From: Skywatch International Inc. <skywatch@ltlb.com>
To: "sky open list" <skyopen@unix.ltlb.com>
Subject: (Skyopen) FW: Filer's Files #52
Date: Fri, 1 Jan 1999 18:49:50 -0600


From: JosephS843@aol.com [mailto:JosephS843@aol.com]
Sent: Friday, January 01, 1999 4:15 PM
To: W4VIW@aol.com; U1@juno.com; WFHassel@aol.com
Subject: Filer's Files #52


Filer's Files #52-1998,  MUFON Skywatch Investigations
George A. Filer,  MUFON Eastern Director,  Happy New Year
December 31, 1998,   Majorstar@aol.com  (609) 654-0020

Senator Barry Goldwater, Alan Sheppard the first American in
space, Lt. Col. Corso and Col. Colman Von Keviczky all friends
of Ufology passed away in 1998. Senator Goldwater the Republican
presidential candidate in 1964 stated: The subject of UFOs is
one that has interested me for some long time.  About ten years
ago, I made an effort to find out what was in the buildings at
Wright Patterson Air Force Base where the information is stored
that has been collected by the Air Force, and I was
understandably denied the request.  It is still classified above
Top Secret." Thanks to Above Top Secret by Timothy Good.  These
officers felt the public has a right to be informed about UFOs.
We salute these wonderful men who spent much of their lives
serving their country and dedicated to exploring for
extra-terrestrial life.

MASSACHUSETTS

MIDDLEBORO--On December 10, 1998, the witness spotted a strange
brightly lit craft in the sky around 9:00 PM. The craft had
numerous red, green, blue and white colored lights.  As the
witness watched the it broke into two UFOs. The two UFOs flew
geometric patterns at high speed around the sky.  The colored
lights were spectacular and eventually the two UFOs combined
into one and shortly there after disappeared.  The witness then
noticed what he believes were Air Force jets investigating in
the same general area as the UFOs.

GEORGIA

TROUP COUNTY-John Thompson State Section Director writes: I am
now going to have to reassess what flew over west central
Georgia on December 10, 1998, at 10:20-10:30 PM.  I have located
a witness who was directly under the path of the unknown object.
This ex-Air Wing Marine says it was definitely flying under
1,000 feet and when directly overhead was seen only as a
fireball of orange-yellow color making a huge roaring noise.  On
it moving off to the ESE, he said it appeared to have a dark
Grey bottom that was slightly illuminated. Now it appeared to be
of a long delta shaped craft with a rectangular shaped boxed-off
end, with four fires coming out of the "box."  (Note: See other
witness in initial e-mail description who said its end was
boxed-shaped.) He said he saw no wings,  per-se, no airplane
lights, and that it looked much like drawings of the Aurora
craft that is alleged to be flying.  He wondered if it was a
cruise missile of some kind but said the craft was considerably
bigger than an F-16.  Total time of hearing the unknown object
was nearly 10 minutes!  The racket it made he said in both
intensity and duration was like no other aircraft he has ever
heard.  He, like many others, also wondered if it was not a jet
aircraft of some sort that was fixing to crash.  The speed of
the unknown  object was slower than a jet but he thought faster
than a prop plane.  Unlike most witness, who heard a loud
roaring noise for only  2-3 minutes, this witness was outside
the entire time when the unknown object passed eastward and he
heard it from beginning to end.  Another witness, seven miles
north, at where Highway 100 intersects Highway. 27 south of
Franklin, in Heard County, heard nothing but saw a bluish-red
fireball with short tail. This 48 year old witness said that the
fireball, which had no sparkler effect but seemed to be rolling,
was three-quarters the size of a full moon. It flew level
across nearly 45 degrees of sky in three seconds.  While this
witness is sure she and her 17 year old nephew saw this at
between 10 and 10:30 PM, like  all others, she is not certain if
it was on 12/10/98 (a Thursday). She is  certain that it was on
a weekday night during that same week.  She says what they saw
was not an airplane or "shooting star."  Her description,
however, suggests a spectacular meteorite, which is what I
initially thought the 12/10/98 unknown object was. There is
another witness who lives in the Liberty Hill area of extreme
southwest Heard County, one mile from my house, he says he
thought it was a dirigible! There is obviously considerable
confusion on what passed through three counties going towards
Savannah and possibly Ft. Stewart on 12/10/98 between 10:20 and
10:30 PM. A meteorite, cruise missile, black budget craft,
disabled military aircraft,  UFO imitator, or even true UFO are
options. It should be remembered that in the Troup-Heard
Corridor during 1994-1995 there were several reports of a
low-flying, slow- moving and loud roaring to "rumbling" UFO
documented. The FAA  has not replied thus yet; while they, most
likely  will have no  radar data (assuming the altitude of the
unknown object was extremely low) they could have voice
communication  between pilots.  LaGrange's Callaway Airport said
they had no pilot reports but did not think it was a dirigible
or blimp as they usually are given a "clearance" notice when one
flies over the area.  Initial description:  This occurred at
night and my wife and I both saw whatever it was that made the
"racket"--as many witnesses described it.  We heard it, like
nearly all, for at least two minutes; possibly even three
minutes.  I've seen many jets fly over but I've never seen one
like this!  What my immediate reaction was on hearing and seeing
it, was than it was a spectacular meteorite that seem to be
going too slow. But the path and length of noise heard are
consistent with an airplane.  What is not consistent was the
huge rocket like noise and the large fireball at its rear.  I
can only assume that the jet--if that is what it was--had some
kind of engine trouble that was emitting fire for over 45
seconds, the interval we had it in sight. Since e-mailing you, I
have talked to an individual just north of our house who said it
was a "box shaped," rear ended, jet that had blue, red and white
lights.  I also talked to a Meriwether Sheriffs Dept.
dispatcher, 30 miles to the East in Greenville, who saw it.  She
said that it had a blinking red light and that the sky was
completely clear where she was located.  There are over 20
people who heard it, but usually could not see it because of
cloud cover over most of the area. Considering these two
witnesses, and despite what we saw, it must have been some kind
of plane with jet engine problems.    Then again, it may well
have been someone trying to generate a UFO report. What kind of
plane flies over that rattles windows 15 miles away in at least
three counties and yet is going below the speed of sound? Since
the Art Bell LaGrange report of July 1997, I have seen several
of these unusual events.  Remember, the huge red light plane
seen here twice over the Troup-Heard Corridor that reek of UFO
simulations. I have to wonder is someone is trying to create UFO
reports for unknown reasons? I cannot imagine, what it must have
sounded like inside that plane?  At a distance many witness said
it sounded like thunder.  Closer up, the loud rocket-like
roaring noise sounded like the aircraft was about to crash.. So
far I have received no reply from the FAA on anomalous
radar/voice communication data or Tim Long of Georgia Tech on
seismic data.  I want to emphasize I am not sending this as a
UFO report. Incidentally, if you follow the azimuth of 110
degrees from southwest Heard County (just north of Glenn)
through Greenville, Meriwether County, the flight-path of this
"plane" would have been towards Hunter Air Field, south of
Savannah.  I believe this "racket and fire maker" would have
also passed over an area where other UFO reports were
investigated by Chief last year:  Jeff Davis County.  A curious
coincidence?  Best Regards, John Thompson
gin@wp-lag.mindspring.com Editor's Note: Hunter Air Field is
only a few miles from the Atlantic Ocean and has one of the
longest and strongest runways in the US.  Interestingly it was
designed to handle aerospace craft.

CYLINDRICAL UFO FLIES OVER LONDON

On Thursday, December 16, 1998, at 9:05 a.m., David W., his wife
and two children were driving on Manthorpe Road, heading into
Brewery Road in London when they spotted a UFO.  "The sky was
clear blue, with slightly patchy cloud near the horizon," Dave
reported, describing the UFO as "a solid white cylinder, smooth
but reflective surface with rounded edges, no visible wings,
markings or other appendages."  The UFO, he added, "flew like a
slow-moving missile, travelling 'a level straight line' east to
west, from Abbey Wood to central London. Thanks to Marc Bell and
Errol Bruce-Knapp. EDMONTON-On November 17, 1998, north of
London a triangular shaped craft was sighted flowing low over
just after midnight.  Observers of the Leonid meteor shower
reported seeing a low flying craft with triangular shape.  There
were a dozen amber lights coming from the craft that appeared to
flying at a high altitude.  This report was sent from England
and carried in FF #49, but apparently originated with Victor
Kean who should have been credited. Thanks to Victor Kean.

AUSTRALIA CONTROVERSEY

Robert Frola writes that his group cannot confirm Ross Dowe's
report you posted on #50 of Filer's Files:  A message dated
December 10, 1998, from Ross Dowe of the Australia National UFO
Hotline reads: The Hotline has been very busy taking sighting
reports from most parts of Australia over the last 48 hours.
UFO reports are coming from Melbourne, Victoria; Perth, Western
Australia; Darwin, Northern Territory; Brisbane, Queensland;
Canberra, Australian Capital; and Albury, New South Wales.  All
these reports are similar in nature.  Respondents are claiming
that they have sighted a very large black or dark triangular
shaped object with an illuminated array underneath, descriptive
of "Ezekiel's wheel."  The UFO was seen standing still, rotating
and moving slowly passing overhead.   Ross Dowe
(ippoz@eisa.net.au)  Robert Frola writes: There has been no
activity that I am aware of as all groups in Australia are in
communication with each other. On the contrary, it has been very
quiet, with little or no reports coming through.  There were
reports from Darwin and the Northern Territory, but they were
not what Ross is reporting to you.  Here is what Diane Harrison
posted:

NORTHERN TERRITORY:  From local Northern Territory News by Maria
Billias 12/14/98.    UFO reports in the Territory have increased
astronomically, with the latest sightings occurring in Katherine
yesterday morning.  UFO Researcher Keith Douglass of
Unidentified Flying Objects Research, Alice Springs, yesterday
said UFO sightings were reported  to him every two or three
days. And he said reports had soared, not just in the Territory,
but all over the world.  Mr Douglass said: "It's bigger than
anyone could imagine. "UFO sighting is on the increase because
it's becoming more acceptable not to be called an idiot. TENNIS
"A lot of people are seeing them in the Territory especially,
with strange lights being reported on average every two or three
days. Mr. Douglass said the most recent sighting came from
Katherine early yesterday morning, with two tennis-sized red
ball illuminating the sky.  He said: "I think there is something
going on out there.  Warwick S said: The time was 2.10am I had
gone out side to have  a smoke and enjoy the beautiful night/
early morning. I said a prayer, looked up and around the Milky
Way that hung there in the sky. I saw a shooting star and then
to my right a flashing light approaching, the lights caught my
attention.  At first I thought it was a plane as the Airport
isn't far away.  It flew past me slowly observing me and letting
me observe them.  It maintained the same speed around (5 km/h )
and then flew out to sea. It was 20 meters in height. Objects
lights were blue, red, yellow, and orange. The objects were oval
with light through the middle. The witness was scared, excited,
overwhelmed, and disappointed because they didn't stop to chat
during the ten minute sighting.  Thanks to Diane Harrison and
Robert Frola.

FAMED REMOTE VIEWER TO REVEAL ALIEN SECRETS

Ingo Swann, a gifted natural psychic who was one of the first
and most influential members of the U.S. government's
super-secret remote viewing program, has recently announced the
forthcoming publication of a new book in which, he says, he will
reveal astonishing secrets about alien activity. The book is
called "Penetration: The Question of Extraterrestrial and Human
Telepathy." A brief description now posted on the web says that
Swann was part of an unnamed "deep black" agency with an
extraordinary focus: "UFOs and extraterrestrials on the moon,
and worries about ET telepathic/mind control powers." Swann says
this group used to meet in an underground facility near
Washington, D.C., but was so secretive that it left no paper
trail. He says the only secrecy oaths he took were verbal, not
written, and that they have recently expired, so now he can
reveal some of his official knowledge concerning UFOs and
aliens.  During his time with the secret agency, Swann says, he
was taken to a remote lake in Alaska where he witnessed a large
triangular UFO at close range.. Swann was reportedly told that
this kind of craft emerged from the Alaskan lake every day.
Swann's main concern is the undeveloped nature of human
telepathy and its contrast with "the probable existence of fully
developed alien telepathy." Swann also says he will reveal new
secrets of the moon, its origins, its atmosphere, its occupants
and many other features."  More information at:
http://www.biomindsuperpowers.com/Pages/PenetrationCovers.html.
Thanks to Skye Turell for bringing this story to our attention.

ROSWELL PHOTO CONTROVERSY CONTINUES

Did a space craft crash near Roswell in 1947?  Photographs now
being examined may show possible strange symbols and writing
that seem unlikely to be engraved or embossed on Mogul balloon
materials and a radar target like kite. Numerous books have been
written claiming an  alien craft crashed, but they are based
mostly on forty or fifty year old  memories and testimony.
Intelligence officer Major Jessie  Marcel had picked up some of
the debris on a ranch near Roswell, showed it to his family and
brought it to Roswell Air Base for examination.  On July 8,
Colonel Blanchard announced that the Army Air Force had captured
a flying saucer.  Major Marcel and the debris were flown to Fort
Worth, Texas. James Bond Johnson was ordered by his newspaper
the Fort Worth Star-Telegram to go to the base and photograph
the debris. When he arrived at the Eighth Air Force Commander's
office, he was met by Colonel Dubose the Chief of Staff.
General Ramey was not there, but a still wrapped package of
debris was on the floor.  Colonel Dubose and Bond Johnson
unwrapped the debris and spread it out to prepare for the photo
shoot. Respected researchers have maintained that the real alien
debris had been switched.  In the book, The Roswell Incident, by
Charles Berlitz and William Moore on Page 35 it states:
"Actually," said Major Jesse Marcel, shown kneeling here amid
what he described as some of the less spectacular pieces of
wreckage, "this material may have looked like tinfoil and balsa
wood, but the resemblance ended there." At first newsmen were
permitted only as close to this material as was necessary to
take the picture.  Later, after torn-up pieces of an actual
weather device had been substituted for the real wreckage on
General Ramey's orders, press photographers were permitted to
examine at will.  Editor's Note: One problem we have is that
Moore offered three different versions of the quotes attributed
to Marcel, first in his book, then when he sent out his notes,
and finally in his magazine, FOCUS.  The controversy continues.

KEVIN RANDLE  writes: I think it is time to review the various
tales told by J. Bond Johnson as he continues to tell us about
the photographs he took in General Ramey's office.  I think we
now agree that he took six pictures rather than the two that he
originally claimed.  The evidence here is the quality of the
pictures.  They all look basically the same, have the same
lighting and angles, the debris in the pictures, and RAMEY'S HAT
and tie on the radiator. (Yes, examine the picture carefully and
you'll see a brigadier general's star on the cap and not a
major's leaf.)  Now, Johnson is telling us that when he entered
Ramey's office, Colonel DuBose was there and they unwrapped the
debris while waiting for Ramey to arrive.  What Johnson said to
me originally was "So I drove directly to Carswell [though in
1947 it would have been the Fort Worth Army Air Field] and my
recollections are now I went in and I opened my carrying case
with my Graphic [camera] and I had just brought one holder with
me with two pieces of the four by five film.   I posed General
Ramey with this debris..."  Notice that he said nothing about
unwrapping debris or anything else at this point.  This is all
based on what he told me during our first conversations in early
1989 and are, of course, on audio tape.  Johnson reported in
February 1998 that "I was met by COL DuBose and ushered into
Ramey's office. Dubose (sic) went to find Ramey.  I used that
time to further unwrap and arrange the debris."  When he was
challenged on this point, that he was unwrapping the material in
General Ramey's office, the story shifted subtly.  Now we learn,
"When he arrived at the Eighth Air Force Commander's office, he
was met by Colonel Dubose (sic) the Chief of Staff.  General
Ramey was not there, but a still wrapped package of debris was
on the floor. Colonel Dubose and Bond Johnson unwrapped the
debris and spread it out to prepare for the photo shoot.
Fifteen minutes later, General Ramey arrived clutching a piece
of paper..."  Once again Johnson raises the question of when
Ramey told him it was a weather balloon.  "No one seemed to know
the exact identity of the debris."  Not according to Johnson
himself.  He told me, in 1989 in two separate interviews that
Ramey told him it was a weather balloon.  To quote Johnson, once
again, "I posed General Ramey with this debris.  At that time I
was briefed on the idea that it was not a flying disc as first
reported, but in fact, was a weather balloon that had crashed."
There was no misunderstanding here.  That quote came in the
middle of a long narration by Johnson.  My original question had
been just to have him relate, in detail, what happened.  I was
not questioning him closely so that he was confused and I did
not put words in his mouth.  Those were his own memories until
he decided that he must have photographed the "real" stuff.
Johnson posted, on the Internet, a "press release" in which he
alleged that the University of Texas at Arlington held the
photographs under high security, that they were arranging a
special public showing of huge blowups of the photos and that
the University and the Air Force had fought about the photos.
According to the University, none of this is true either.  When
I ordered the blowups for analysis, I was told, without asking,
that these tales were not true.  There was no special security,
there was no planned show, and there had been no fight with the
Air Force.  I could go on with other Johnson misrepresentations,
but is there any real point.  Johnson has changed his story
significantly, he changes when facts suggest a version of his
tale to be wrong, and he keeps inventing new details to thrill
us all because he is the "Roswell Photographer."  Isn't it time
to stop reporting his tales.  They only confuse the issue rather
than clarify it.  His transparent attempt to read the "Ramey
message" with all sorts of references to "victims" and
"wreckage" and a second site at "Magdalena" have not been
duplicated by other researchers. The interpretations of the
message leave a great deal to be desired.  Thanks to Kevin
Randle

RESPONSE FROM JAMES BOND JOHNSON:  There remain two unwrapped
packages of the debris in clear view in the Ramey office photos,
including in the Newton photo.  Bob Durant and others continue
to expose their ignorance re the remarkable findings of the RPIT
(Roswell Photo Interpretation Team) volunteers.  Instead of
embarrassing himself with his ignorance by taking cheap pot
shots at this very dedicated international group of photo
analysts, they MIGHT have joined this distinguished group in
their quest to finally solve the Riddle of Roswell.  How can
fully displayed symbols and other anomalous objects carefully
unearthed from the Ramey office photos be dubbed "fantasies?"
Again and again the RPIT has invited wider assistance and has
NOT drawn any final conclusions as to the preliminary
revelations of their remarkable findings!  Durant --along with
other UFOlogists -- have been invited repeatedly to roll up
their sleeves and PARTICIPATE in this fascinating project.
Second, Johnny Mann, when he was in Roswell with Major Jesse
Marcel, Sr. showed Marcel the pictures in THE ROSWELL INCIDENT.
Mann   says that Marcel told him those pictures had been staged.
There is NO dispute that the pictures taken of Major Marcel were
staged.  I staged them.  It has been published repeatedly that I
helped to unpack the "flying saucer" crash debris that Marcel
couriered from Roswell to Fort Worth on orders of General Ramey.
Then I "posed" -- arranged, displayed -- the junk in an attempt
to make a meaningful photo record and then took the six famous
pictures of Major Marcel, General Ramey and Colonel  examining
the debris.  There is NO issue here. As far as I know, that is
the only time that Marcel referred to those pictures. See
website at: http://adm2.ph.man.ac.uk/ftw-pics/index.htm.  Thanks
to Colonel James Bond Johnson

GET THE BEST AND HELP UFO RESEARCH,  IT COULD SAVE YOU MONEY As
a special aid to our readers, we can help you obtain the best
real estate experts in your area at no cost to you.  Make sure
you have a top notch agent, to buy or sell your home often your
biggest investment.  We provide free relocation information and
consulting services from the largest and most respected firms.
If you're planning to sell or buy a home and would like a top
flight real estate agent give me a call at 609 654-0020 or
E-mail me at Majorstar@aol.com. Please send your name, phone
number, address, price range and location to move.

MUFON JOURNAL For more detailed investigative reports subscribe
by writing to 103 Oldtowne Road, Sequin, TX 78155-4099 or E-mail
Mufon@aol.com.  Filer's Files Copyright 1998 by George A. Filer,
all rights reserved.  Readers may post items from the Files on
their Websites  provided that they credit the newsletter and its
editor by name and list the date of issue that the item
appeared.  You may purchase Filer's Files on floppy discs for
either 1997 or 1998 for $20 each or $30 for both years.  There
are 52 files each year with an index.  Mail your checks to 222
Jackson Road, Medford, NJ 08055.  Send your letters to George
Filer at Majorstar@aol.com.  If you wish to keep your name
confidential please so state.




***************************
SKYWATCH INTERNATIONAL INC.
(A Non-Profit Organization)

Administrative:                 Membership:                Postings/Mailing
PO Box 900393                   PO Box 801                 PO Box 2154
Palmdale, CA 93590-0393         Leander, TX 78646-0801     Elk City, OK 73648
USA                             USA                        USA

Skywatch International Inc. and this list service are
not responsible for content or authenticity of posts.

Skywatch International, Inc. endorses no political candidate for office due to
the organization's status as a non-profit corporation."

"What could be stranger than the truth?"

To post send your message to skypost@unix.ltlb.com






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 3

                          In Memorium... Betty Cash

From: Peter Gersten <UFOLAWYER1@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1999 11:44:42 EST
Fwd Date: Sun, 03 Jan 1999 12:25:44 -0500
Subject: In Memorium... Betty Cash


Dear CAUS Members:

In 1981 I represented three People in a lawsuit against the
United States Government for injuries that resulted from their
contact with an unusual aerial object.

Betty Cash, Vicky Landrum and Colby Landrum are the only three
People to ever sue our government for injuries from a UFO.  On
the eighteenth anniversary of her encounter, Betty Cash died.

Betty Cash was a warrior and heroine.  She fought the US
government and, even in defeat, showed a spirit and tenacity
that will now be her epitaph.  CAUS and I pay tribute to a very
brave lady...and a victim of this government's callousness to
the rights of the individual.  The following is the announcement
of her death:



MUTUAL UFO NETWORK
103 OLDTOWN RD.
SEGUIN, TX 78155

December 30, 1998

For Immediate Release:

INJURIES CAUSED BY UFO CLAIMS WOMAN'S LIFE

Betty Cash, one of three people injured in a UFO close encounter
near Huffman, Texas, on December 29, 1980, died on the 18th
anniversary of the event, in Birmingham, Alabama.  She had been
in poor health ever since the encounter. At the time of the
event, Mrs. Cash operated her own businesses near Dayton, Texas.

Betty Cash, along with Vickie Landrum and grandson Colby
Landrum, encountered a huge UFO accompanied by military
helicopters on a dark road in the east Texas Piney Woods.  They
were exposed to radiation from the object, which caused extreme
medical problems such as burns, eye damage, hair loss, diarrhea,
and vomiting.  Although they and others observed a large number
of military helicopters along with the UFO, the U.S. Government
refused to acknowledge the event or assist them in any way.

After the encounter, Betty Cash was hospitalized and treated for
burns and the other maladies.  The extent of the injuries was so
great, she was forced to close her businesses and never worked
again.   He life became a series of hospital stays, many of them
in intensive care.  Eventually, she developed cancer, which was
successfully treated.  In November 1998, Mrs. Cash suffered a
stroke.  On December 29, during her recovery, an unusual turn of
events claimed her life.

Mrs. Cash was a hero in the fight against government UFO
cover-ups and brought hope to other victims of UFO incidents.
She was devoted to family and friends and never allowed her
illness to prevent her from helping others to cope with the
trauma of UFO close encounters.

For further information, contact John Schuessler, MUFON's Deputy
Director of Administration, and primary investigator of Mrs.
Cash's UFO incident, at (303) 948-6224, FAX (303) 948-6225, or
e-mail at: schuessler@mho.net.

---

Betty Cash will be missed...but never forgotten.

Peter A. Gersten
Director
Be sure to visit the CAUS web site at http://caus.org
To join this mailing list, go to http://caus.org/feedback.htm

To be REMOVED from this mailing list, go to... http://caus.org/remove/






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 3

                               Re: Help Needed

From: Bob Shell <bob@bobshell.com>
Date: Sat, 2 Jan 1999 12:46:36 -0500 (EST)
Fwd Date: Sun, 03 Jan 1999 12:29:33 -0500
Subject: Re: Help Needed

>Date: Fri, 1 Jan 1999 18:44:56 +0000
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Sean Jones <tedric@tedric.demon.co.uk>
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Help Needed
>>Sean,

>>Don't know about that first one. Never heard that.

>>There is an article in the current Scientific American about the
>>new discoveries about the size of the universe.

>Is there any chance at all that you could photocopy this for me
>and post it to me please. I would be happy to pay any costs
>incurred.


Check their web site first, and let me know if it is there.  My
wife may have thrown out the magazine by now, but if you can't
find on their site let me know and I'll see if we still have it.
I don't save them, so if we still have it I could post the
magazine to you.

Bob





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 3

                      Re: Sherman J. Larsen and Ufology

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
Date: Sat, 02 Jan 99 13:41:35 PST
Fwd Date: Sun, 03 Jan 1999 12:31:52 -0500
Subject: Re: Sherman J. Larsen and Ufology


>Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 23:48:27 -0500
>From: Gary Alevy <galevy@pipeline.com>
>To: UFO UpDate <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: Sherman J. Larsen and Ufology

>>From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>Subject: Re: Sherman J. Larsen and Ufology
>>Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1998 17:26:29 -0500

>>>Date: Sun, 27 Dec 1998 19:59:37 -0500
>>>From: Gary <galevy@pipeline.com>
>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>>Subject: Re: Sherman J. Larsen and Ufology

>The list owner has been most tolerant of controversy as this
>thread has developed and I, at least, owe him a vote of thanks.
>I owe my critics thanks as well for clarifying the issues some
>of my future readers will have.  We don't have to respect each
>other to find each other useful; and judging from the names,
>insults and drivel my critics have directed at me, it is my
>observation that they seem to enjoy a little primal scream
>therapy!

Nah, Gary, we just enjoy the laughter you've so generously
afford us all.

Jerry Clark






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 3

                       Interesting Images From Mexico

From: Dan Geib <geibdan@qtm.net>
Date: Sat, 02 Jan 1999 14:27:22 -0800
Fwd Date: Sun, 03 Jan 1999 12:34:38 -0500
Subject: Interesting Images From Mexico


Hello and Happy New Year

I have just received some very interesting photos from Mexico from

Santiago Yturria Garza
Onvestigdor Mexicano del Fenomeno OVNI
 =A5 OVNI Investigaciones
 yugs@nl1.telmex.net.mx

They are located in the 'Want To See A UFO' Section UFO Photos
for 1999!

Recent Ovnis In Mexico


UFO Folklore!
http://www.qtm.net/~geibdan/framemst.html

Check em out
Hope you find them interesting

Dan





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 3

                      Re: Sherman J. Larsen and Ufology

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
Date: Sat, 02 Jan 99 14:25:25 PST
Fwd Date: Sun, 03 Jan 1999 12:38:31 -0500
Subject: Re: Sherman J. Larsen and Ufology


>Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1998 00:14:16 -0500
>From: Gary Alevy <galevy@pipeline.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: Sherman J. Larsen and Ufology

>>From: "Stan Friedman" <fsphys@brunnet.net>
>>To: "UFO UpDates - Toronto" <updates@globalserve.net>
>>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Sherman J. Larsen and Ufology
>>Date: Sat, 26 Dec 1998 22:48:08 -0400

>><snip>

>Do people lie about their activities? Yes.
>Do they dissemble? Yes.
>Can they fool their friends, especially friends
>who have good reason to want to think the best
>of them? Double yes.
>Will they ignore evidence any way they can when
>their friends are involved? Yes.

>I look at Dr. Hynek's career, closely, and it's almost funny,
>how easily he re-invented himself after the Michigan disaster.
>Using his personal qualities he was able to put everyone to
>sleep, or rather, nearly everyone. As always, there were many
>who preferred sleep, as do so many on this list today. But
>perhaps a seed has been planted, a doubt raised. Remember, there
>is much on the public record if you simply will look at it.

Patient and gentle listfolk:

As we all know by now, Gary long ago escaped the bonds of
rationality to go floating happily through the vacuum of
paranoia and fantasy. Therefore. what follows is not addressed
to him.

As anyone who has spent a lot of time on the question of
Allen Hynek, as I have, would likely agree, Allen was almost
a classic case of cognitive dissonance: a guy who was able
to hold two equal and opposite thoughts in his head at one
time.

On one level he was an Air Force debunker; on the other, he was
bugged by the suspicion that maybe there was something --
something big -- going on.  He also juggled conflicting
interests.  One, not necessarily admirable but entirely
understandable, was the paycheck the Air Force gave him.  In the
end it helped educate his children, no small consideration as
any parent on this list will understand.

There was also his desire, as a guy who had a career in
astronomy to protect, not to get too far ahead of his scientific
colleagues, who he knew would criticize him vehemently if he
began to champion the notion that UFO reports are genuinely
anomalous.  (This, of course, did happen eventually.)  There was
also the consideration that his views on the subject fluctuated
wildly.  In the late 1950s he was even privately urging that the
term "unidentified flying objects" be jettisoned because it
implied that there were objects which could fly.  Allen was so
conflicted on this subject (as private and official memoranda
richly confirm) that sometimes one gets the impression that his
view of UFOs depended upon which side of the bed he got up from
on a particular day.

The good Allen Hynek was privately critical of Donald Menzel's
pseudoscientific explanations of UFO reports (see, for example,
The UFO Encyclopedia, 2nd Ed., p. 634), and within Blue Book he
was generally on the side of the angels -- though not to the
point of directly confronting the bad guys.  As early as 1952 he
cautiously told the Optical Society of America that puzzling
reports existed and that witnesses ought not to be ridiculed.
(It was here that he made the deserves-to-be immortal
observation "Ridicule is not a part of the scientific method,
and the public should not be taught that it is.")  He was
depressed and frustrated by the Robertson panel's dismissive
attitude.

People tend to think that Hynek's emergence as a UFO proponent
in the 1960s happened overnight.  It didn't. Even then there
were false starts and stops, culminating in the embarrassing
"swamp gas" episode which troubled Allen the rest of his life
and to which he kept returning in both public and private
discussion.  Ironically, it was ridicule -- ridicule on the
opposite side, of lame-ass Air Force and bogus "scientific"
explanations for UFO sightings -- that finally forced Allen into
his role as proponent.  It is even possible that, had it not
happened, he would have maintained an equivocal posture for
years afterwards.

(An additional aspect of Hynek's cognitive dissonance: On one
level, he was a trained, well-credentialed, accomplished
scientist.  On the other, he entertained mystical notions and
had a deep -- and, it seemed to me, profoundly credulous --
fascination with occultism.)

Hynek's chronic Hamlet-like indecision drove the aggressive,
damn-the-torpedos James E. McDonald nuts, and he despised Allen
for it.  "Despised," by the way, is not too mild a term. The
contempt was palpable. McDonald, whose personality could not
have been more different from Hynek's, found Allen's timidity
infuriating and irresponsible, and he believed Allen had failed
as a scientist.

Even so, for all that he was willing to believe just about
anything bad about Hynek,  McDonald was too smart to entertain
paranoid notions or level goofy charges such as those we've been
subjected to on this list.  Still, in common with Gary, he had
no feeling for the complex human reality that underlay Hynek's
long failure to step forward.  He could only conclude that Allen
was a venal man who cared more about his AF consulting fees than
he did about his duty as a scientist.

History will have to decide which of these two men was right.
In the meantime, it does neither history nor rational discourse
any good to go fishing in schools of red herrings. The reality
is complex and interesting enough.  A good book could be written
on the subject, I am sure.  I am equally sure that Gary Alevy is
not the one who will write it.

Jerry Clark





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 3

                           Re: Cough, Korf, Ahem!

From: Sean Jones <tedric@tedric.demon.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 2 Jan 1999 15:19:21 +0000
Fwd Date: Sun, 03 Jan 1999 12:42:18 -0500
Subject: Re: Cough, Korf, Ahem!


>Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1998 15:24:29 -0600
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Michael Christol <mchristo@mindspring.com>
>Subject: Re: Cough, Korf, Ahem!

>>Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1998 05:18:14 -0800 (PST)
>>From: Roger R. Prokic <rprokic@earthlink.net>
>>To: <updates@globalserve.net>
>>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Cough, Korf, Ahem!

>>Roger R. Prokic
>>Telecom Design Lead
>>Mars Surveyor Program
>>Lockheed Martin Astronautics
>>Denver, Colorado USA

>REgards, Mike Christol,
>Nobody.....

Hi Mike

Boy am I glad I wasn't on the end of this :-) I would feel
firmly put in my place and that's for sure.

I am so very glad that you took pains to point out to Roger that
it doesn't matter how many qualifications that a person has, or
how many letters after one's name in the field of ufology it
doesn't matter. What counts is plain old hard work.

Roger I mean no insult to you whatsoever, please believe me on
this, but I do feel that you opened yourself up when you said
"Who the hell are you to criticize me", sorry but it was bound
to happen at some time to someone on this List because there are
a lot of hardworking people who have been up to their respective
elbows in it for decades. Also I intend no insult to any of the
eminently qualified people here on the list i.e. Stanton
Friedman. In the field of Ufology there is no recognised
'Degree' or 'Diploma' that can be earned so all that counts is
hard work, is it not?

And that means going out into the field and investigating. (I do
not imply or suggest that you don't Roger)

BTW with regards to Meter, and Adamski for that matter, I have
no bias either way. The reason for this is I have not
investigated either of them and have neither the time or
resources to do so. I will however listen with an open mind to
all that have investigated either and have an informed opinion.

climbing off this soapbox

---
    In an infinite universe infinitely anything is possible.
                       Sean Jones
 Homepage--http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Zone/1745/index.htm





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 3

                        Re: Stephens & Art Bell Show

From: James Arthur <holy@sirius.com>
Date: Sat, 02 Jan 1999 12:36:51 -0800
Fwd Date: Sun, 03 Jan 1999 12:47:53 -0500
Subject: Re: Stephens & Art Bell Show


[Non-Subscriber Post]


Since Roberrt A.M. Stephens thought to foreward edited portions
of my E-mail to this List, with commentary, I thought it was in
order to post my E-mail in its entirety.

James Arthur

---

Subject: Art Bell show.
Date: Fri, 01 Jan 1999 22:06:51 -0800
From: James Arthur <holy@sirius.com>
Organization: Ethnomycology
To: sti3818@montana.com

Hello Robert. Now THAT was Radio! I thought it interesting that
RCH did not deny sending the e-mails that you mentioned. But
instead said something to the effect that What are you doing
with private mails, and how do you prove they are from whom you
say they are from. There was not (that I heard) any categorical
denial. You should post those E-mails with follow up statements
from those who have divulged to you that RCH has indeed done
those things.

One thing is for sure, you threw them for a loop. You blew them
away so bad that the only defense they could put foreward was
that they could not understand what you were saying. But when
asked for the evidence that RCH was a liar, that's exactly what
you did. This of course remains as well to be backed up by
supporting data (IE the actual E-mails with documentation
supporting their credibility).

Your attack on Hoagland smacks of another scandal unfolding,
Clinton refuses to admit he lied. Hoagland on the other hand did
not admit to sending those E-mails, yet did not exactly deny it
either. However, If he did send them, they seem to be of such a
personal nature that he may actually BELIEVE the possibilities
of this Nuclear strike to N.Y.

I've heard this rumor before (not that I believe it, or do not
believe it) but anyone who did believe it would certainly (if no
fear was present of making oneself a fool) advise a friend. A
public statement of this sort would surely draw incredible
ridicule. Suppose he did make it? The logical next step would
be, WHY? As "you" say, RCH wastes his time on frivolous crap,
and should swerve towards the more productive. Perhaps what he
DOES know only surfaces in private e-mails, while he loads the
airwaves with useless banter.

At any rate, it behooves you to solidify your statements with
supportable evidence. I have found your Scientific statements to
be severely lacking, yet your insider (in theory) information is
interesting and should be your focus. Art Bell is NOTORIOUS for
cutting people off just when it gets interesting. Thats a shame!

Sincerely, James

[It should be noted that this was a private E-mail and was not intended
for distribution to anyone except the person I sent it to, nor was my
permission given to distribute an edited version to anyone. IMHO RCH is
anything but useless banter (just clarifying the previous projected
statement) and he has always said there are things he can not talk
about, publicly.  James]






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 3

                      Re: Bell Cuts-Off R.A.M. Stephens

From: John W. Ratcliff <jratclif@inlink.com>
Date: Sat, 2 Jan 1999 16:32:46 -0600
Fwd Date: Sun, 03 Jan 1999 12:57:09 -0500
Subject: Re: Bell Cuts-Off R.A.M. Stephens


My pathetic contribution to this pathetic excuse for
intellectual discourse follows.  Listening to list members argue
about Richard Hoagland and his 'data' conjures visions of
absurdity threatening the rational mind with self-implosion.
It's analogous to hearing two self appointed scientists
discussing, with grave seriousness, the flight worthiness of
Santa's sleigh, with or without Rudolph.  In all fairness, Art
Bell is an entertainer, nothing more, nothing less.  Richard
Hoagland, however, is...(opinion self-censored by author)

Personal attacks are frowned upon in these forums for public
discussion, and I will try to refrain from them here.  The
simple fact of the matter is that Richard Hoagland suffers from
paranoid delusions, involving conspiracies and imaginary
happenings which run unchecked through an ego unbounded.  To be
fair, I have purchased and watched a number of Hoagland's videos
which document and serve proof positive for my previous
statement.  I have purchased his book and digested it with more
than just a little bit of gastronomical distress.  I have given
an objective look at the Mars data, including the more sane
commentary by the likes of Stanley McDaniel. However, a pile of
rocks ultimately turns out to be just that, a pile of rocks.

To waste any more intellectual energy on this man is rather
missing the point.  I would gladly contribute a significant
portion of my personal UFO/anomaly budget to fund some sort of
intervention program to help Hoagland better deal with his
reality integration problems.

I know the new millennium is upon us, and we can look forward to
a year of hype, hysteria, and general insanity, much of it to be
fueled by the likes of Bell/Hoagland/religious fanatics, etc.
but is it too much to hope that the voice of reason might cut
through this shrill hysteria on occasion?

John W. Ratcliff





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 3

                           Re: Cough, Korf, Ahem!

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Sat, 2 Jan 1999 18:46:52 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 03 Jan 1999 13:02:05 -0500
Subject: Re: Cough, Korf, Ahem!


>From: Mark Cashman <mcashman@ix.netcom.com>
>Subject: UFO UpDate: Re: Cough, Korf, Ahem!
>Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 14:47:33 -0500
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>


>I think that no case should be investigated by less than two
>investigators. And I also think that every important
>investigation should be followed up about 1 year and 5 years
>later with a reinterview, leaving every possible amount of room
>for the witness to explain or disavow the reality of their
>report without blame.

This is one of the rarely-appearing good ideas in ufology. I
have long advocated "long" investigations which make the
witness(es) wait. Several of my investigations have been
carried out over years (New Zealand -  1979 to 1982 or 1983;
McMinnville, 1974 to 1982) or months (Japan Air Lines 1628 jumbo
jet case of Nov. 1986 - Jan 1987 to April, 1987) for example.

Recently, I spent about 4 months investigating and analyzing the
'peanut' UFO video case.... an investigation that COULD have
been accomplished within a week..... but I wanted to give the
witnesses plenty of time to give any indication of a hoax before
going public.

Cashman's suggestion probably will not be taken up except in
very exceptional situations in which 'new' investigators pick up
on an 'old' case, such as happened with Roswell when Schmidt
and Randall began an in-depth re-investigation about 10 years
after the initial investigation had started (late 1978).





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 3

               Re: Military Ability to Detect & Identify UFOs

From: Michael Christol <mchristo@mindspring.com>
Date: Sat, 02 Jan 1999 18:39:33 -0600
Fwd Date: Sun, 03 Jan 1999 13:04:43 -0500
Subject: Re: Military Ability to Detect & Identify UFOs


>From: Farley Scott <SCOTTF@HughesLuce.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: Military Ability to Detect & Identify UFOs
>Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1998 14:07:26 -0600

>Others have already pointed out his bogus information such as
>where he states that the moon does not rotate about its own
>axis. This guy is supposed to be knowledgeable in celestial
>mechanics?

>Just my opinion.

>Farley Scott
>Dallas, TX

What?  What!  Where did you or anyone else get the idea that the
moon rotates on it's axis?  The moon rotates around the earth,
keeping the same face to us at all times. It does not rotate as
the earth rotates...

Otherwise there would be no "backside" of the moon which is
"unseen" by astronomers or the average person.

I seem to have missed something here...I can't believe that
people think the moon rotates through a cycle ever so many
hours...If it did, then we would see its other faces...

Please help me to understand this....

REgard, Mike





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 3

                      Re: Bell Cuts-Off R.A.M. Stephens

From: Michael Christol <mchristo@mindspring.com>
Date: Sat, 02 Jan 1999 18:53:19 -0600
Fwd Date: Sun, 03 Jan 1999 13:16:50 -0500
Subject: Re:  Bell Cuts-Off R.A.M. Stephens


>From: Tim Matthews <matthews@zetnet.co.uk>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: Bell Cuts-Off R.A.M. Stephens
>Date: Fri, 1 Jan 1999 08:38:31 -0000

>I couldn't agree more. Any man who pretends to be an expert and
>then claims that either the F-117A stealth interdictor or the
>SR-71 have been used as "interceptors" deserves no air time at
>all - even if Hoagland and Bell are running the modern-day
>equivalent of the Banana Splits for conspiracy theorists.

>As far as I and many colleagues are concerned Stephens is
>another Ed Fouche - big on talk and totally lacking in remotely
>credible evidence.

>Tim Matthews.


I could care less if you like these people or not, but I object
with passion that you choose to make statments like the one
above with such ease in an open mail list.

You Sir, have no manners.  You are totally uncouth and as such,
regardless of whether or not you know what you are talking
about, I would not accept one word as the gospel.

When you learn manners, then let me know, and I Sir will
apologize to you.  Until then, I will urge others to follow the
same practice.

Mike





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 3

                      Re: Sherman J. Larsen and Ufology

From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
Date: Sat, 2 Jan 1999 22:51:25 -0400
Fwd Date: Sun, 03 Jan 1999 13:16:40 -0500
Subject: Re: Sherman J. Larsen and Ufology


>Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1998 00:14:16 -0500
>From: Gary Alevy <galevy@pipeline.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: Sherman J. Larsen and Ufology

>>From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
>>To: "UFO UpDates - Toronto" <updates@globalserve.net>
>>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Sherman J. Larsen and Ufology
>>Date: Sat, 26 Dec 1998 22:48:08 -0400

>><snip>

>>I first met Allen Hynek in the late 1960s and saw him in a
>>number of different places after that including his home, Idabel
>>Epperson's home in LA ,at MUFON Conferences., Etc.

>>I thought he was naive about both interstellar travel and
>>government secrecy and I strongly believe that Jim McDonald was
>>certainly a more persistent and better investigator. But I never
>>saw the slightest hint of Allen covering things up.

<snip>

>Look Who's Running Down Dr. Hynek Now!

>I'll say one thing for Allen Hynek, his erstwhile friends sure
>do one heck of a job of "defending" him! That is, both Mr. Clark
>and Mr. Friedman damn Dr. Hynek with faint praise...or praise
>him with lukewarm damnation, take your pick. But it's odd. It's
>like the "Reagan Defense" that was put up after the Iran/Contral
>affair broke into the news and the President was asleep or out
>of town when the various deals went down.

<snip>

>Gary Alevy

***

I seem to have missed the point. I wrote about and criticized
Allan Hynek many years ago. But I saw nothing in my many
contacts with him to justify the strange claims you have made.
And so far as I can tell you have presented nothing to justify
them, either.

Stan Friedman






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 3

                   UFO Photographed In Australia 11-06-98

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
Date: Sun, 03 Jan 1999 13:26:09 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 03 Jan 1999 13:26:09 -0500
Subject: UFO Photographed In Australia 11-06-98

From: Diane Harrison <tkbnetw@fan.net.au>
To: UFO UpDates <updates@globalserve.net>
Subject: UFO Photographed In Australia 11-06-98
Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1999 12:40:00 +1000


The Keith Basterfield Network Australasia
tkbnetw@fan.net.au
URL: http://www.fan.net.au/~tkbnetw

*************************************************************
UFO Australian  Research Network Hot Line Number
                       1800 77 22 88 Free Call
*************************************************************


UFO Sky-Hi caught on film

Source: Sunday Mail news paper
Date: 3rd .1.1999

Good  Mail,  with John Hay
E-mail : smietters@qnp.newsltd.com.au
Page, 86

The truth is out there, So are the UFOs.

Madelenine Patterson 63 is a dedicated sky gazer and she knows
instinctively. Mrs. Patterson aimed her camera at the sky from
the backstairs of her Toowong home on November 6th 12 1998 and
wasn't in the least surprised when a UFO appeared on the
developed film. "I didn't see the UFO at all" she said, "but I
had a feeling there was something unusual to photograph. It's
something like when people get a feeling there is going to be a
storm."

Retired nurse Mrs Patterson, who is also a naturopath and
nutritionist, has added the photograph to her growing collection
of photographs of cross formations and angels. It includes about
six photographs of UFOs. "" These things are there for everyone
to see. All my life I've been interested in things that are
beyond physical and material spheres and I watch the skies
closely." She firmly believes there are other living beings out
there. "Otherwise we'd be like cave people, thinking we are the
only people in the universe.

Reporter By Elissa Lawrence

*****************************************
1800 Call In Code: 00010

Date 1.1.1999
Day: Friday
Time Reported: 1.12am
Source: Jean W
Location: Forrest Lake Brisbane QLD
Tel 07 33 72
Report Given to nearest Rep: Robert Frola

ufologist@powerup.com.au

Report: While sitting under the back pergola, Mr W and his wife
sighted a triangular object, moving very slowly over the western
horizon in a north to north westerly direction. The object had a
yellow orange glow about it. Through binoculars it was yellow on
top and orange on the bottom. 15 minutes later, an identical
object appeared and travelled along the same flight path. The
witness, an ex-Vietnam vet, estimated the speed of the object to
be around 80 to 90kph. No noise was heard. Both witnesses wear
glasses. Classification: CE.1

****************************************
Sighting Report UFOICQ

Date 31st 12 to 1st .1.1999
Day: Thursday/ Friday
Time Reported: 10.35pm
Source: James B
Location: Woodridge
Tel 07 3209

ufologist@powerup.com.au

Report: Over a period of three to four hours, a husband and
wife, while relaxing on the back veranda of their home, sighted
a number of unknown objects. The first was around 10.30pm on New
Year's Eve. 8 objects were seen over the top of Mt Tamborine.

The next group of objects, (15 in number), were seen shortly
after midnight. These objects were described as white balls of
light with a red outer glowing rim. Looking through binoculars,
the objects appeared to have flecks of light emanating from the
circumference of the objects.

NOTE: RAAF Amberley had received numerous reports of similar
objects. No military or civilian aircraft were flying in the
area at the time of the sighting. The witnesses had contacted
Ross Dowe after the RAAF Duty Officer of the day gave them his
telephone number. Ross Dowe's explanation to the sightings: a
meteor shower. Weather condition at the time: full cloud cover
(1000-1500 feet), rain moderate to heavy. The meteor shower
explanation seems ludicrous said sightee. Contacted authorities,
who were involved with fireworks display. Objects do not fit the
description of any fireworks they have in their inventory. Their
suggestion, UFOs or meteor shower. Witness, being a CB/short
wave enthusiast, was contacted by a gentleman living in Wynnum.
He also same the same objects but over the bay.

They also recounted a sighting, which occurred on Christmas Eve.
A red ball was seen over Middle Rd Greenbank area. This object
travelled across the sky in a straight line, before going
vertical, disappearing quickly through the clouds.
Classification: NLs

Regards,

Diane Harrison, Robert Frola
UFO Investigation Center
Queensland








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 3

               Australian UFO Research Network Hot Line Number

From: Diane Harrison <tkbnetw@fan.net.au>
Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1999 15:53:37 +1000
Fwd Date: Sun, 03 Jan 1999 13:32:18 -0500
Subject: Australian UFO Research Network Hot Line Number


The Keith Basterfield Network Australasia
tkbnetw@fan.net.au

*************************************************************
UFO Australian Research Network Hot Line Number
            1800 77 22 88 Free Call
*************************************************************
FOR IMMEDIATE PRESS RELEASE:
A World First
Sunday, January 03, 1999
*******************************************

UFO Australian Research Network Hot Line Number:

1800 77 22 88 Free Call

Announcing the new Australian Research UFO Hot Line Number!

At no cost to the witness to any kind of UFO event can call this
number from anywhere in Australia, and get connected with the
local UFO researcher or group in their area.

This service is supported by over 50 of the best and most active
UFO investigators from all parts of the country.

This is the first time that the Australian UFO Research
Community has joined resources to offer an immediate and
comprehensive response to all kinds of inquiries and reports
from the public on UFO sightings and encounters.

The new UFO Research Hot Line Number 1800 77 22 88
Answers with the following recording:

"This is The Australian UFO Research Network, a FREE CALL
Service. Your report will be directed to the nearest UFO field
investigator, who will call you back ASAP to obtain full details
of your report. After the tone, could you please leave your
Name, Telephone number, Time and the State you are calling from.

You have one minute to record your message.

This is a free call service provided by The Australian UFO
Research Network. Thank you."

******************************************************************

These are some of the Members and Groups who support
the UFO Free call HOT LINE

UFORQ UFO Research, Queensland, Martin Gottshall
MUFON Australasian Continental Director, Glennys Mackay
QUFON Queensland
UFOICQ Investigation Center, Queensland, Diane Harrison & Robert Frola
UFO New South Wales, Brian Dickeson
WUFO Investigation Center ,Warrnambool, Victoria Jason Groves
Perth UFO Reporting Center, Brian Richards
TUFOIC Tasmania, Paul Jackson
Nexus Magazine, Duncan Roads
Ufologist Magazine, Robert Frola
Independent UFO Researcher [Mackay] Victoria Wellard
Independent UFO Researcher [Alice Springs] Keith Douglass
Independent UFO Researcher [Far North Queensland] Lawrie Williams
Independent UFO Researcher [Cairns] Russell Boundy UFORB
Independent UFO Researcher & Author [New South Wales] William Chalker
Australian International UFO Flying Saucer Research

_____________________________________________________

We would greatly appreciate any publicity you can give this unique
public service to your listeners & Readers.

Thankyou

For any further questions, please contact Diane Harrison & Robert Frola
At: tkbnetw@fan.net.au
At ufologist@powerup.com.au

Or Telephone 07 55 4 77 9 33
_____________________________________________________

Supported by The Keith Basterfield Network Australasia at:
http://www.fan.net.au/~tkbnetw

****************************************************************






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 3

                 Jerry Black's Challenge To Whitley Strieber

From: Glenn Joyner <infohead@airmail.net>
Date: Sat, 02 Jan 1999 03:03:12 -0600
Fwd Date: Sun, 03 Jan 1999 15:01:48 -0500
Subject: Jerry Black's Challenge To Whitley Strieber


Hello Errol, and List members:

As you know, I do transcription work for Jerry Black. Here's the
latest "open letter" from Jerry. Please note that his site has
moved to:

http://members.xoom.com/blackshole

Thanks,

Glenn

---------------------------------------------------------------

An Extensive Review of Whitley Strieber and His Claims of
Encounters With the Visitors

by Jerry Black

January 1999

I have spent the last three and a half to four months carefully
reviewing all of Whitley Strieber's books, beginning with his
book Communion. I have also reviewed the book by Mr. Ed Conroy
by the name of 'A Report on Communion'. All of the books
mentioned are very well written. Both men are accomplished
writers. However, the purpose of my review is to try to
determine whether Mr. Strieber did indeed have the experiences
with the Visitors that he relates throughout his books.

Mr. Ed Conroy's book, Report on Communion, is just that: It is a
report on Communion. It does not scientifically or objectively
investigate the material alleged in Communion, or Mr. Whitley
Strieber. He has gone to great lengths to interview many top
Ufologsts, Whitley Strieber, Mr. Strieber's wife, Ann, Mr.
Strieber's mother, and some neighbors who knew Mr. Strieber
when he was a youngster. All of these interviews are very
interesting, and appear to be well documented. However, this
does not help us evaluate the actual validity of Mr. Strieber's
experiences. Mr. Conroy makes no attempt to sponsor any
psychological evaluation of Mr. Strieber, nor does he make any
attempt to sponsor any polygraph tests for Mr. Strieber. He
accepts the self-examination that Mr. Strieber has made of
himself, and uses that material in writing his book. So,
basically, Ed Conroy has done just what the title of his book
implies; he has merely reported on Communion, and is certainly
not an objective investigation of the material in the book.

Whitley Strieber has had more abductions and encounters with the
"Visitors" than anyone else in the history of Ufology. Of
course, we must remember that Whitley Strieber, as late as the
book written by Ed Conroy, claims that he is not sure that the
Visitors are extraterrestrial. However, we look at all of the
books Mr. Strieber has written, and the covers of them certainly
all do depict humanoid beings that look like what we would
consider to be extraterrestrial beings. I do not know if this is
a marketing ploy by the book company, or if the covers are done
by the direction of Mr. Strieber. But, as one picks up one of
these books, one would naturally assume that Mr. Strieber has had
experience with extraterrestrial beings, as the cover images
depict the particular types of humanoids which are widely
accepted by many as "extraterrestrial."

Having said that, we know that Mr. Strieber has made claims on
the Internet, and on his website, that his experience with the
Visitors is the most well-documented case of abduction and UFO
encounter in the country. We find that to be an untrue
statement. Mr. Strieber has basically self-examined his own
case.

In the beginning Mr. Strieber was at odds with many Ufologsts.
I can only say that, in my own brief experience with Mr.
Strieber, in letting him know that I was going to do this review,
that he certainly does not accept criticism well.

Obviously, one has to expect that when a writer like Mr.
Strieber comes forward and begins writing what he has told
people to be his true experiences with abductions, and with
these Visitors (and for many years before that has been a
prolific and well-known science fiction writer), UFO
investigators would naturally proceed very cautiously in
digesting the material he presents. It is my belief that, in the
beginning, the differences between the UFO researchers and Mr.
Strieber, which kept them at odds for quite a few years, were
basically the fault of Mr. Strieber. He should have been
well-aware of the scrutiny he would be subject to, coming out
with these "true" stories of encounters with the Visitors, after
being such a well-known fiction writer.

Just in my brief contact with Mr. Strieber over the Internet, he
was very antagonistic about my making a review of his work. So
the fact that Mr. Strieber has taken it upon himself to review
his own case, in terms of psychological examinations and
polygraph tests, is certainly questionable, in my opinion.

I found many troubling things in my reading of Whitley Strieber's
books. First of all, he claims, in his books, Communion and
Transformation, to have been basically traumatized by these
continual encounters with the Visitors at his isolated cabin in
New York, during 1985 and 1986, especially. He describes, in
dramatic detail, his being fearful to the point of tears, and
frightened to the point of physiological shock, at these
continual encounters with the Visitors during the numerous
weekend trips that he took to the New York cabin.

However, we are asked to believe that he regularly took his young
son, Andrew, as well as his wife, Ann, with him on these weekend
trips, knowing that the odds were very high that he was going to
be confronted with more experiences with these terrifying
Visitors. I find no logic in this course of action whatsoever.
In fact, if these encounters are indeed real, I find it very
disturbing that he would allow his young son, Andrew, to possibly
be subjected to the vision of these terrifying beings on any
given weekend that he took the boy along. If Andrew had been
subjected to an encounter with the Visitors, the psychological
trauma which he may have suffered could have required some very
extensive psychiatric help for years.

It is equally perplexing that he would subject his wife to the
possibility of these horrifying encounters. So I found this to
be completely out of what one would consider the normal actions
of a loving father and husband, in subjecting his son and wife to
such a scenario, weekend, after weekend, after weekend.

In the front of his book, Transformation, I note the following
transcript:

Transformation is dedicated to those who have had the courage to
be named in this book as witnesses to my experience.

Then there is a list of well over 20 names here, two of which are
Mary Sue and Patrick Weathers. I had nine of my friends, some
investigators, some not, who had not read the book
Transformation, to read the sentence above, along with the names
listed. I asked them what that meant to them. I asked what they
perceived that the sentence was saying. All nine of them
indicated that they felt like Mr. Strieber was saying that the
people listed, at one time or another, had been in the presence
of Mr. Strieber when he was having an experience of either seeing
an object or possibly encountering Visitors.

However, upon reading the book, I found the statement to be
untrue, or at the very least extremely misleading. None of the
people listed were actually personal witnesses to Mr. Strieber's
experiences. All of these people have had UFO sightings or
experiences of their own, which Mr. Strieber claims helps to
verify his own personal experiences. In the cases of many of
these people, and especially that of Mary Sue and Patrick
Weathers, whose experience occurred in 1955, if the analogy is to
be used, it seems they would be using Mr. Strieber's encounters
to verify their experiences, not the other way around. In any
event, none of these people mentioned has any bearing whatsoever
on the validity of Mr. Strieber's experiences, because all
mentioned had individual experiences on their own, many much
earlier than that of Mr. Strieber. None of them occurred in the
presence of Mr. Strieber, and vice versa. So the statement is
very, very misleading, until one actually reads the book.

Later, at the end of Transformation (and this is also picked up
at the beginning of his book Breakthrough), Whitley Strieber
attempts to offer as proof of his experiences with the aliens the
fact that one evening at the cabin he was hearing knocks on the
roof. The knocks are in the sequence of three, a pause, then
three, and a pause. As Mr. Strieber was putting this information
into his book, Transformation, and it was released to the
publisher, only a few people knew this information. At that
point in time, Ed Conroy made mention to Mr. Strieber that, in
Glen Rock, Wisconsin, there had just been a report that hundreds
of people in the town had heard these knocks on their roofs, with
no explanation. Some of the people even claimed that the knocks
came in sequences of three at a time. Whitley Strieber continued
forward with this in his book Breakthrough, and made mention of
the knocks heard by the hundreds of people in the small Wisconsin
town. He used this at the beginning of the book to illustrate as
proof beyond a shadow of a doubt of his experience with the
Visitors. This certainly is not proof of his encounters with the
Visitors.

During the past 40-odd years, this type of occurrence has
happened many times throughout this country at different
locations. In the early sixties, here, in Cincinnati, Ohio, I
can remember very distinctly (and it can be verified through
newspaper records at the library, if necessary) in the local
section of the newspaper, there was a heading which read What
Goes Boom Boom in the Night? This referred to one evening, early
in the 1960's in the western part of Cincinnati, when hundreds
people heard such knocks on their roofs, with no good
explanation.

It so happens that one of these hundreds of people was a young
lady who worked at my own place of employment at that time. I
asked her about the occurrence, being curious about all unusual
phenomena, and she could only say that she had heard these knocks
repeatedly on her roof, had run outside, as many other people had
that night, but could find no one on her roof, and no reason for
the noise. She did not mention at that time that the knocks came
in sequences of three. Some people may have. However, the point
I strive to make is that this is a phenomena which has been
occurring for over 40 years, with no rational explanation. There
is no proof or evidence of what causes this strange phenomenon,
and there is certainly no proof that it is, in any way, connected
with extraterrestrials.

Consequently, the fact that Mr. Strieber heard knocks on the roof
of his cabin, and the fact that residents of Glen Rock, Wisconsin
heard similar knocks on their roofs at about the same time that
Transformation was going to print, is no proof whatsoever about
Mr. Strieber's encounters with the Visitors. However, he tries
to intimate that this occurrence is proof of his experience with
the Visitors.

In reality, upon reading all of the books that Mr. Strieber has
written on this subject, there is actually no verification
whatsoever, no proof whatsoever, that Mr. Strieber has had the
experiences that he claims to have had with the alleged Visitors.
Contrary to his claims of his being the best documented case of
abduction and encounters with the Visitors, many other cases in
the field of Ufology seem to have more authentication and
objective investigation to support the contentions of the
principals than do Mr. Strieber's.

Mr. Strieber has basically self-examined his own case. Again, I
can only stress to our readers that one cannot conduct one's own
psychological evaluations and polygraph tests and consider them
as valid. Mr. Strieber has wasted his time and money by
sponsoring and paying for his own psychological and polygraphic
examinations.

Of the four tests taken, two of the tests were sponsored by
television networks. Again, a television show is not an
objective third party. They have a vested financial interest in
Mr. Strieber passing such tests, so he can appear on their
programs, and thus increase their ratings. So all of Mr.
Strieber's efforts to verify his own case are null and void, from
this writer's perspective. Mr. Strieber's case stands out there
as one which has had no substantiation whatsoever, by any
scientific and objective investigator that we are aware of.

Whitley Strieber certainly has a flair for dramatization, as
well. I noted that some two or three years ago he was on a
television program where a moving video of an alleged alien
being, somewhat in distress, was shown. There were three other
people besides Mr. Strieber on a panel viewing this particular
video. Of course the television program was interested in the
opinions of all four of these alleged abductees.

The other three abductees came forth after viewing the video, and
very calmly stated their opinions. Mr. Strieber, in a very
dramatic fashion, said something to the effect of, "Oh, no, no,
take it away, take it away! I don't want to see it anymore."
Mr. Strieber's actions were very animated and somewhat uncalled
for, especially in view of the fact that he, as an intelligent
human being, had to realize that the chances of this video truly
being that of an actual alien being were less than realistic.

As it turned out, since that time there has been no
substantiation that this video is indeed authentic. So what was
the necessity of the overly dramatic response of Mr. Strieber
regarding this alleged alien? I found it to be unnecessary and
somewhat embarrassing to serious Ufologsts.

Again, just recently, there was a gentleman on the Art Bell Show,
who claimed to have actually killed an alien which had first
killed the man's dog. That gentleman's name was Jonathan Reed.

I am told by friends who heard the first interview of Mr. Reed
that Whitley Strieber was also on the show, and that when Mr.
Reed told his story, again Mr. Strieber was reacting in an overly
dramatic way, gasping, acting as if it were a tremendous story.
He of course had no idea whatsoever if there was any truth to Mr.
Reed's story, or any evidence to support Mr. Reed's claims of
having killed an alien.

Mr. Strieber's actions here remind me of his original reaction
about the Gulf Breeze case, in stating that people should take a
second look Ed Walters' Gulf Breeze photographs. He bases his
entire opinion on this case, besides his actually going to Gulf
Breeze at one time, I believe, on the fact that a close friend of
his saw an object very similar to the Ed Walters object, two days
before the alleged Walters encounters. Obviously Mr. Strieber is
not a UFO investigator, because one cannot rely on one person's
sighting of an object to validate the UFO sighting of another
person. In this case, I obviously do not know what his good
friend saw two days before Ed Walters first took his photographs,
but whatever he saw was not what Ed Walters alleges to have seen,
because it has been conclusively proven that the objects that Ed
Walters photographed were models. Accordingly, there is no way
that Mr. Strieber's friend, two days earlier, could have seen the
objects in the sky that Ed Walters photographed.

The more recent book, Confirmation (which we hear has received a
very bad review by a book critic in New York), is what I call
simply writing a book for the sake of writing it.

In any case, what I am saying, and have said many times before,
one cannot use the experiences and cases of others to validate
and verify one's own. The first two thirds of Transformation
attempts to do this. Mr. Strieber cites other peoples' cases, in
an effort to validate his own story. Each case must stand
independently on its own merits, its own investigation, its own
polygraph tests, its own psychological profiling. But Mr.
Strieber tries to impress us with the fact that other people have
had similar experiences to what he writes about.

The last third of the book deals with his alleged implant. It
appears again that Mr. Strieber is writing the book simply for
the sake of writing it. He claims he has an implant behind his
ear, but when unnamed surgeons attempted to remove it, the
implant moved around, and they ended up only getting a small
piece of cartilage. By his own admission, regarding the
attempted removal of his implant, and even of the removal of one
from another gentleman, there is no proof whatsoever that any
material that has been removed is of extraterrestrial origin.
Again we are left with Mr. Strieber's own evaluation, and his own
self-examination, in the case of the implant.

What has raised our ire most recently, and what should be a clear
indication of where Mr. Strieber is coming from, is the that I
was alerted to the fact (and subsequently told that Mr. Strieber
discussed this on the Art Bell Show) that, in the summer of 1998,
while doing a promotional tour of Confirmation in Toronto,
Canada, he was awakened at 3:00 a.m. by a knock on the door of
his motel room. When he went to the door, there was a small
human being who proceeded to tell him of the gloom and doom that
was forthcoming for this planet.

Mr. Strieber perceives this person to have been from a secret
society operating on this planet. This person seemed to be very
knowledgeable about the Visitors that Mr. Strieber refers to
throughout his books. During that evening, Mr. Strieber, through
information related to him by this human being who belonged to
the "secret society," was given enough material to write a new
book. Mr. Strieber claims he was in the process of writing
another book, called The Edge, and subsequently had to stop the
writing of that book, to get this critically important
information out, which had been given to him about the
forthcoming planetary doom. My problem with that is, if there
was so much gloom and doom information given to him by this
secret society member, would he not, as a good citizen and good
friend to all humanity, want to give this information out on the
Art Bell Show? Or on the Oprah Winfrey Show? Could he not hold
a national press conference, as opposed to taking the time to
write a book? At this particular time I have not yet seen a copy
of that book on the shelves. Wouldn't it be more proper to just
tell everyone, so we could prepare for these looming calamities
as soon as possible? Evidently not. He chooses, as he has in the
path, just to write a book. This, to me, is extremely, extremely
interesting.

It is my personal view that there is no evidence whatsoever to
support Whitley Strieber's contention that he has had numerous
encounters and abductions with and by beings he refers to as the
Visitors. No objective and scientific investigator has ever
investigated Mr. Strieber's claims. Thus, I can only conclude
that there is no basis to believe any of the claims that Mr.
Strieber has made. Until such time as Mr. Strieber allows a
thorough investigation by objective investigators, there is no
basis for anyone to believe that Whitley Strieber's accounts are
true.

Many of our readers are aware that I used polygraph tests in the
investigation of the three women in Liberty, Kentucky, Mona
Stafford, Elaine Thomas, and Louise Smith, in 1976. All three
women passed the polygraph tests.

Most recently, I have used polygraph tests in the case of Travis
Walton, regarding the movie Fire In the Sky. I was asked by
Tracy Torme, one of the producers of the movie, to re-investigate
the case, which I did for over a year and a half. I subsequently
gave polygraph tests to Travis Walton, Mike Rogers, and Alan
Dallas. All three of these gentlemen passed the polygraph tests
with flying colors, as did the three women in Liberty, Kentucky.

My objectivity and fairness is well-known in the UFO community.
I support the Travis Walton case, and I support the Liberty,
Kentucky case. An extensive investigation, of four and a half
years, into the Ed Walters Gulf Breeze case has conclusively
shown that the case is a hoax. Ed Walters was given the same
opportunity. He was asked on two different occasions by myself,
and on one occasion by Mr. Rex Salisberry, to undergo a third
party polygraph test, properly sponsored. Mr. Walters has
refused all three requests to undergo a properly-given polygraph
test.

At this time, I am asking Mr. Whitley Strieber to take a properly-
administered polygraph test, sponsored by a third party.

As I have said earlier, and as confirmed by Mr. Billy J. Riggs,
who was the President of the Polygraph Association of Florida in
1992, and which is also the view of the National Polygraph
Association, the subject person under investigation cannot take
his own polygraph test. It is considered an invalid test.

In fact, in the words of Mr. Billy J. Riggs, no good competent
polygraph expert, in his opinion, would give a polygraph test
under those circumstances. Mr. Ed Walters tried this, as well.
Of course, his test results were considered null and void. As I
stated earlier, Mr. Walters refused to take a properly-sponsored
polygraph test.

So, Mr. Strieber, I am offering you the opportunity to help
authenticate your experiences, by undergoing this third-party,
properly-administered polygraph test. I am willing to have this
test sponsored, at no expense to you. Many people know that I
have, in the last six months, been very, very fortunate, in the
fact that I now have an impartial sponsor from the west coast (it
is not Robert Bigelow), which has agreed to underwrite
investigations in regard to polygraph examinations, examinations
of alleged alien implants, soil samples, or other major expenses
involved in my UFO research.

With that in mind, Mr. Strieber, I can at this time offer to give
you and your wife, Ann (I must be able to test you both)
polygraph tests at no expense to you. The polygraph expert will
be flown in to your location, delivered to your front door, and
all expenses incurred will be the responsibility of myself, and
underwritten by my sponsor. This test will be administered by a
polygraph expert with over 20 years experience. This will
possibly be either Mr. Hugh Jones, or Mr. Cy Gilson from Arizona.
While that is not a definite situation, we will most definitely
find someone who has at least 20 years experience in the field to
conduct these tests.

I will be the one to make up the four questions to be asked in
the polygraph test. Those questions will be reviewed by the
polygraph expert, and he will change the wording as necessary to
ensure that definite "yes" or "no" answers can be obtained. I can
assure you that all questions will be very blunt and to the
point.

If you are sincere about your experiences, if you are telling the
readers of your books the truth, you should have no reservations
about taking this polygraph test. By testing both you and Ann,
the chances of both of you either failing the tests or passing
the tests incorrectly are extremely small. The more people
involved, the more accurate the tests are.

I will arrange to schedule these tests for you after the first of
the year (1999), at your convenience. The results of the test
will be placed on my website, and the website of others, whether
you pass or whether you fail.

Please be advised that you will have 30 days from January 4,
1999, to respond to the offer of these polygraph tests. If you
do not respond within 30 days, I will assume you are refusing to
take the third party polygraph tests that I have requested of
you. I will instruct the transcriptionist of this letter to post
it to a public UFO discussion forum, and to e-mail a copy to you
personally.

I eagerly await your reply.

Regards,

Jerry Black

JB/gmj

A NOTE ABOUT JERRY BLACK:

Mr. Jerry Black has been researching and investigating UFOs in a
scientific and objective manner for the past 40 years. His
Internet website can be found at:

http://members.xoom.com/blackshole

 Mr. Black invites your comments on the above. He does not have
 an e-mail address, but can be reached at the following address
      and phone number:

       Jerry Black
       6276 Taylor Pike
      Blanchester, Ohio 45107
       (513) 625-2613





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 3

                          BWW Media Alert 19990103

From: BufoCalvin@aol.com
Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1999 10:05:33 EST
Fwd Date: Sun, 03 Jan 1999 15:22:03 -0500
Subject: BWW Media Alert 19990103


Bufo Calvin
P O Box 5231, Walnut Creek, CA  94596
Internet: BufoCalvin@aol.com

Website: http://members.aol.com/bufocalvin

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/redirect-home/bufosweirdworld
Link to Amazon.com

ALL RIGHTS RESERVED
(permission is granted to reproduce or redistribute this edition
of Bufo's WEIRD WORLD provided that attribution is made to
http://members.aol.com/bufocalvin. It is good etiquette to check
with strangers before you e-mail them something.  If you forward
this, please make sure it is clear that you are forwarding it).



January 2, 1999

Well, this is your last year to get the 20th century right :) .
As most of you know, I tend to be pretty positive in outlook:
the twentieth century has been okay to me so far...great in some
areas!

Last week's FOX broadcast of WORLD'S GREATEST HOAXES: SECRETS
FINALLY REVEALED seemed an incredible display of chutzpah.  Bob
Kiviat, who had produced the very successful alien autopsy show
for FOX (among other weird shows), brought us this one
apparently angled towards skepticism.  I haven't dissected it
thoroughly, but it was amusing in its lack of balance and the
use of red herrings.  While it appeared that some people, such
as Kal Korff, may have had legitimate things to say, it was
difficult to tell in this format. Essentially, someone would
claim inside knowledge that something was a hoax, without much
if any collaborating evidence.  The logical people to respond
(the people being accused of hoaxing) were generally not made
available.  They may, of course, have chosen to stay clear, but
we didn't have statements like "Ray Santilli/Bob Gimlin/the
President of ANE/ declined to be interviewed". In the cases
where someone did respond, such as Billy Meier, Doc Shiels, or
the supposed man in the suit in the Patterson film, it was all
denials.  My favorite thing was the guy trotted out who claimed
to have been appeared in the alien autopsy film...except it
wasn't a piece of film that had ever been shown before!  The
quality was way below that of the "actual footage".  The
gentleman seemed to have a tough time keeping a straight face:
was that because he was revealing the real hoax, or hoaxing the
revelation?  The thing I was most disturbed by was the equation
of the Billy Meier "cult" with the Solar Temple and Heaven's
Gate (which both contained members who committed suicide).  It
seemed to be guilt by association, and could start unjustified
(but not necessarily incorrect) action.  The statement that some
folks who hang out with Billy Meier also were members of the
Solar Temple ignores, for example, the fact that many members of
Heaven's Gate were STAR TREK fans: does that mean that there
will be a mass suicide at the next Trek convention?  Let me
stress that I think it was fine that the program was run, and I
encourage Bob Kiviat to do more.  They had the standard "hey,
this isn't news, it's entertainment, so we can do whatever we
want" disclaimer.  We all assume that everybody who watches tv
is smart enough, and disciplined enough,  to keep that in mind,
right?  ;) .  Besides, it was a great chance to tape the
Patterson film.

Interestingly enough, Nessie came out relatively well.  One of
the ones they didn't debunk (despite the fact that you could
have easily found people who would have said it was fake) was
the Robert Rhines group of underwater photos. This week, look to
NOVA to do an episode on Nessie which is also rumored to be not
overly negative.  The old girl may be recovering somewhat from
the allegations about the "surgeon's photograph".

By the way, I'm starting a new monthly feature in FATE magazine
soon, covering weird reports from around the world. If you are
interested in contributing, please let me know and I'll send you
the criteria.

On to the listings: Times are generally Pacific.

TELEVISION

A&E

Next Sunday, January 9, 4:00 PM, ANCIENT MYSTERIES WITH LEONARD NIMOY: UFOS:
THE FIRST ENCOUNTERS (from ancient texts)

THE DISCOVERY CHANNEL

Sunday, January 3, 10:00 PM, WOULD YOU BELIEVE IT?: CASTLES, TOMBS, AND
LEONARDO (includes haunting in England)
Monday, January 4, 2:00 AM, WOULD YOU BELIEVE IT?: CASTLES, TOMBS, AND
LEONARDO (includes haunting in England)
Thursday, January 7, 10:00 PM, INTO THE UNKNOWN: ANCIENT PUZZLES (oddly, this
series which has always been cryptozoological before, appears to be stepping
outside)
Friday, January 8, 1:00 AM, INTO THE UNKNOWN: ANCIENT PUZZLES (oddly, this
series which has always been cryptozoological before, appears to be stepping
outside)
Saturday, January 9, 2:00 PM, INTO THE UNKNOWN: ANCIENT PUZZLES (oddly, this
series which has always been cryptozoological before, appears to be stepping
outside)
Next Sunday, January 10, 12:30 PM, ARTHUR C. CLARKE'S WORLD OF STRANGE POWERS:
WARNINGS FROM THE FUTURE
Next Sunday, January 10, 10:00 PM, WOULD YOU BELIEVE IT?: CASTLES, TOMBS, AND
LEONARDO (includes haunting in England)
Next Thursday, January 14, 10:00 PM, INTO THE UNKNOWN: GIANT SERPENTS
Next Friday, January 15, 1:00 AM, INTO THE UNKNOWN: GIANT SERPENTS

MTV

Sunday, January 3, 2:30 PM, ROAD RULES: UFO stories (don't know if this is
really appropriate or not)
Sunday, January 3, 4:30 PM, ROAD RULES: haunted hotel
Monday, January 4, 10:00 PM, ROAD RULES: UFO stories (don't know if this is
really appropriate or not)
Saturday, January 9, 8:00 PM: ROAD RULES: UFO stories (don't know if this is
really appropriate or not)
Next Monday, January 11, 10:30 PM, ROAD RULES: haunted hotel

PBS

Next Tuesday, January 12, 8:00 PM, (although many stations will
show it at different times, on different days, or even with
different content) NOVA: THE BEAST OF LOCH NESS (rumor has it
that they actually came out somewhat favorable to Nessie.
Considering some of the skeptical bent of other episodes, that
will be surprising if true)

THE SCIENCE CHANNEL

The new schedule (since December 28, 1998) is weird programming
for an hour each at 3:00 AM, 11:00 AM,and 7:00 PM. Alternating
shows are: INTO THE UNKNOWN and ARTHUR C. CLARKE'S MYSTERIOUS
UNIVERSE.  They also run a Roswell show now every other week
(it's probably the same show every time) at 4:00 AM and noon on
Sundays.

THE SCI-FI CHANNEL

Tuesday, January 5, 11:00 AM,SIGHTINGS: EPISODE #3007 (haunted English castle;
UFOs and popular culture; ghost-busting; Santeria; lunacy; dowsing)
Wednesday, January 6, 11:00 AM, SIGHTINGS: EPISODE #3008 (Iranian UFOs;
psychic detective; heartland ghost)
Thursday, January 7, 11:00 AM,SIGHTINGS: EPISODE #3009 (Ohio UFO; Henry
Rucker, spiritual healer)
Friday, January 8, 11:00 AM, SIGHTINGS:EPISODE #3010 (heartland ghost follow-
up; Siberian UFO crash ((Tunguska?)); dolphins; Nessie)
Tuesday, January 12,11:00 AM, SIGHTINGS: EPISODE #3011(finding children from a
previous life; Montreal UFO; monster in Japan; psychic detective)
Wednesday, January 13, 11:00 AM, SIGHTINGS: EPISODE #3012 (haunting; past
lives; Florida UFOs; psychic detective)
Thursday, January 14, 11:00 AM, SIGHTINGS: EPISODE #3013 (English weirdness;
aliens; psychic sculpture; premonition)
Friday, January 15. 11:00 AM..,SIGHTINGS: EPISODE #3014 (psychics in Russia;
crop circles; ghosts of the Oregon Trail)

SYNDICATED

Wednesday, January 6, MONTEL WILLIAMS: psychic Sylvia Browne
Thursday, January 7, JUDGE JUDY: psychics



___________________________

This is Bufo saying, "If =everything= seemed normal, that =would= be weird!"
____________________________

You can stop receiving this from me just by asking (note: it is
commonly redistributed, and I can't control you getting it from
those sources) by e-mail at BufoCalvin@aol.com.  You can also
subscribe or unsubscribe to Bufo's WEIRD WORLD Media Alert the
same way. Also, please let me know if there is something in the
media you think I should cover. Deadline is Tuesday, the week





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 3

                        Re: In Memorium... Betty Cash

From: Michael Christol <mchristo@mindspring.com>
Date: Sun, 03 Jan 1999 12:43:03 -0600
Fwd Date: Sun, 03 Jan 1999 15:25:53 -0500
Subject: Re: In Memorium... Betty Cash


>From: Peter Gersten <UFOLAWYER1@aol.com>
>Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1999 11:44:42 EST
>To: CAUSupdates@caus.org
>Subject: [CAUS updates] -  In Memory of Betty Cash


>In 1981 I represented three People in a lawsuit against the
>United States Government for injuries that resulted from their
>contact with an unusual aerial object.

>Betty Cash, Vicky Landrum and Colby Landrum are the only three
>People to ever sue our government for injuries from a UFO.  On
>the eighteenth anniversary of her encounter, Betty Cash died.

>Betty Cash was a warrior and heroine.  She fought the US
>government and, even in defeat, showed a spirit and tenacity
>that will now be her epitaph.  CAUS and I pay tribute to a very
>brave lady...and a victim of this government's callousness to
>the rights of the individual.  The following is the announcement
>of her death:


Dear Peter...

I am sorry to hear about this.

I had the good fortune to meet Betty and Vickey at the 1996
MUFON Convention in Pensacola, Florida.

I have a photograph of Betty, Vickey, Walt Andrus and his wife,
which I took, hanging on my wall, here in my computer room.

I have a montage of photos from different UFO events which I
have taken over the years.

Again my deepest sympathy to Betty's family and friends. Ufology
has indeed lost a valiant warrior...

REgards, Mike





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 3

                           Re: Cough, Korf, Ahem!

From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
Date: Sun, 03 Jan 1999 14:02:14 +0000
Fwd Date: Sun, 03 Jan 1999 15:28:16 -0500
Subject: Re: Cough, Korf, Ahem!

Re: Cough, Korf, Ahem!

>From: Sean Jones <tedric@tedric.demon.co.uk>
>Date: Sat, 2 Jan 1999 15:19:21 +0000
>Fwd Date: Sun, 03 Jan 1999 12:42:18 -0500
>Subject: Re: Cough, Korf, Ahem!

>>Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1998 15:24:29 -0600
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>From: Michael Christol <mchristo@mindspring.com>
>>Subject: Re: Cough, Korf, Ahem!

>>>Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1998 05:18:14 -0800 (PST)
>>>From: Roger R. Prokic <rprokic@earthlink.net>
>>>To: <updates@globalserve.net>
>>>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Cough, Korf, Ahem!

Previously, Sean offered this in regard to Michael Christol's
response to Roger Prokic:

>I am so very glad that you took pains to point out to Roger that
>it doesn't matter how many qualifications that a person has, or
>how many letters after one's name in the field of ufology it
>doesn't matter. What counts is plain old hard work.

>Roger I mean no insult to you whatsoever, please believe me on
>this, but I do feel that you opened yourself up when you said
>"Who the hell are you to criticize me", sorry but it was bound
>to happen at some time to someone on this List because there are
>a lot of hardworking people who have been up to their respective
>elbows in it for decades. Also I intend no insult to any of the
>eminently qualified people here on the list i.e. Stanton
>Friedman. In the field of Ufology there is no recognised
>'Degree' or 'Diploma' that can be earned so all that counts is
>hard work, is it not?

Not.

The only thing that matters is results.

When I was a kid, I wanted to play baseball. I sucked at it.
Therefore, I had to try twice as hard to make the team and put
out a great deal more effort than other kids better than me.
Needless to say I did not make the team. But, if "hard work" was
the measure for success, then I damn well should have been team
captain.

Sorry, Michael, but unless all your much bally-hoo'd hard work
(or anyone else's, for that matter) has uncovered something
unique or different regarding UFOs that we don't already know,
then you are only a guy with an opinion, just like Roger, no
matter how hard you had to work to form that opinion.

>From what I've read of your own posts, your much touted neutral
"wait and see" position COULD be considered little more than a
dodge of dealing with difficult issues. And your habit of
limiting yourself to only one response MIGHT seem far too
convenient an escape route for someone truly interested in
exchanging ideas or exploring the results of someone else's
research. Or is your own research the only "real" research you
recognize? Ironic, don't you think, that someone so committed to
research, i.e. learning new information, would be so prejudicial
of another person's ideas simply because of a title after the
name? How petty.

I know of no "facts" or "evidence" uncovered by anyone on this
list, regardless of their "field work", that has added to our
over all knowledge anymore than some of the "armchair" UFO
enthusiasts that also participate. In fact, some of the
"armchair" members have actually brought up some interesting
things for discussion. So when Roger asks, "Who the hell are you
to judge me?" he has a legitimate point and I think you owe him
an apology.

But then what do I know? I don't have the "field" experience
that you do so I guess my opinion means nothing, also.






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 3

                           Re: Cough, Korf, Ahem!

From: Michael Christol <mchristo@mindspring.com>
Date: Sun, 03 Jan 1999 13:21:48 -0600
Fwd Date: Sun, 03 Jan 1999 15:33:00 -0500
Subject: Re: Cough, Korf, Ahem!


>Date: Sat, 2 Jan 1999 15:19:21 +0000
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Sean Jones <tedric@tedric.demon.co.uk>
>Subject: Re: Cough, Korf, Ahem!
>Hi Mike

>Boy am I glad I wasn't on the end of this :-) I would feel
>firmly put in my place and that's for sure.

>I am so very glad that you took pains to point out to Roger that
>it doesn't matter how many qualifications that a person has, or
>how many letters after one's name in the field of ufology it
>doesn't matter. What counts is plain old hard work.


Grin...Thanks Sean...I appreciate your supportive thoughts.

I really mean no disrespect to Roger or anyone else.  I just
wish them to think about their words in the 'field'. As you
said, in the part that I snipped away, there are no recognized
'Degrees' in this field...

If there were so, then based on what I have actually read on
this mail list, there would only be about ten, max! <G>

I respectfully leave myself out of the ten.... I would place
myself somewhere in the sophmore year of my degree work...and I
would place many others in elementary and junior high school.
Ha, ha, ha...but, as you know, those young minds "know
everything" about everything, but that which they are there to
learn. <g> ;-)

Take care Sean.

REgards, Mike





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 3

               Re: Military Ability to Detect & Identify UFOs

From: Perry Mick <perrym@teleport.com>
Date: Sun, 03 Jan 1999 11:28:11 -0800
Fwd Date: Sun, 03 Jan 1999 15:39:59 -0500
Subject: Re: Military Ability to Detect & Identify UFOs


>Date: Sat, 02 Jan 1999 18:39:33 -0600
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Michael Christol <mchristo@mindspring.com>
>Subject: Re: Military Ability to Detect & Identify UFOs

>>From: Farley Scott <SCOTTF@HughesLuce.com>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>Subject: Re: Military Ability to Detect & Identify UFOs
>>Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1998 14:07:26 -0600

>>Others have already pointed out his bogus information such as
>>where he states that the moon does not rotate about its own
>>axis. This guy is supposed to be knowledgeable in celestial
>>mechanics?


>What? What! Where did you or anyone else get the idea that the
>moon rotates on it's axis? The moon rotates around the earth,
>keeping the same face to us at all times. It does not rotate as
>the earth rotates...

It's such a simple thing, I think people just get confused by
the language used to describe it.

The moon does rotate, but it's period of rotation is the same as
it's orbital period around the earth. That is why it always
keeps the same face towards us.

I couldn't understand how it could so perfectly keep the same
face towards the earth. It was explained to me about a year ago
that it is tidal forces that 'lock' the near side of the moon
towards the earth, and this took several eons to accomplish. In
fact, eventually (billions of years) the earth's rotation will
slow down enough so that the earth will also keep one face
toward the moon. Our days will then be perhaps 28 days long!
This is also due to tidal forces between the earth and moon.






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 3

             'Strange Days...Indeed' - Tonight: Michael J. Woods

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto
Date: Sun, 03 Jan 1999 18:39:24 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 03 Jan 1999 18:39:24 -0500
Subject: 'Strange Days...Indeed' - Tonight: Michael J. Woods



On 'Strange Days... Indeed' tonight we'll be talking with
Michael J. Woods.

Mike Woods has worked for 17 years in the news business. He
started in radio, working as a news writer at CHUM AM & FM, and
lead reporter at CKWW radio. He was editor and managing editor
of Business and Finance Magazine. For the last seven years he
has been with CITY-TV in Toronto, for three years as a news
writer for CITY-TV's Breakfast Television, for almost a year the
Producer of 7 'live' hours of Pulse 24 - the 24 Hour Cable News
Service and just recently he's gone back to BT as the news
producer He also conducts UFO research and lectures on UFOs and
the media.

We'll discuss the media's approach to UFOs and look back,
ufologically at the past twelve months.


The program starts at 11:00pm EST on 1010 CFRB [AM - 50,000
watts 'clear-channel] and you can listen via your Real Player
at:

www.cfrb.com/cfrb.ram

To call the program 'live', dial:

On-Air    416-872-1010
          1-800-561-CFRB
          *TALK [local mobiles]

ebk





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 4

                           Re: Cough, Korf, Ahem!

From: Michael Christol <mchristo@mindspring.com>
Date: Sun, 03 Jan 1999 17:33:17 -0600
Fwd Date: Mon, 04 Jan 1999 11:31:02 -0500
Subject: Re: Cough, Korf, Ahem!


>From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
>Date: Sun, 03 Jan 1999 14:02:14 +0000
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Cough, Korf, Ahem!

>Not.

>The only thing that matters is results.

>When I was a kid, I wanted to play baseball. I sucked at it.
>Therefore, I had to try twice as hard to make the team and put
>out a great deal more effort than other kids better than me.
>Needless to say I did not make the team. But, if "hard work" was
>the measure for success, then I damn well should have been team
>captain.

Yes, I was the same way, Roger... I loved baseball, but didn't
have the extra qualities to be great at it...I was only only
average...

Yet, taught my son to play and he was much better than average.
But due to his small stature, he choose music over sports, and
graduated from college with a music degree, which led to a
modeling and acting career...he is only in the early stages of
both, so is not yet known to the average person..."time will
tell" if he is successful in the field he has chosen...<g> I
know this is irrelevant, but I was also a Boy Scout. I wasn't
very good at that either...but I did earn several merit badges
and was assistant Troop Leader...<g>  Just a little trivia which
has nothing to do with anything...ha, ha, ha...

>Sorry, Michael, but unless all your much bally-hoo'd hard work
>(or anyone else's, for that matter) has uncovered something
>unique or different regarding UFOs that we don't already know,
>then you are only a guy with an opinion, just like Roger, no
>matter how hard you had to work to form that opinion.

I can't help but agree with you Roger...however, I do have
videos of informtion and artifacts which I have had for years
and not shared with the whole of Ufology.  I have shown some of
this material to people who I am close to... One example of one
who has seen some, not all of my material is Tom Theofanous,
whom Errol knows very well. You may wish to coax Tom into a
discussion of this... whether he will participate, I cannot say.
Errol knows me...I have been to Toronto on three different
occassions.... Here again this has nothing to do with
anything...

>>From what I've read of your own posts, your much touted neutral
>"wait and see" position COULD be considered little more than a
>dodge of dealing with difficult issues. And your habit of
>limiting yourself to only one response MIGHT seem far too
>convenient an escape route for someone truly interested in
>exchanging ideas or exploring the results of someone else's
>research. Or is your own research the only "real" research you
>recognize? Ironic, don't you think, that someone so committed to
>research, i.e. learning new information, would be so prejudicial
>of another person's ideas simply because of a title after the
>name? How petty.

I respect your right to those opinions Roger...But, unless I or
anyone else has the materials in our physical possession, we can
only make some tpe of choice...I choose to wait and see. I am
sure that this whole phenomena will be explained in another 50
or a hundred years...I may not be alive to see it, but if
history is any type of forbearer, there will be someone alive
who will say:  "Mike Christol chose a wait and see attitude. If
he were alive now, he would have seen his faith justified."...
Whether that be they are real and the cases were real, or they
were all hoaxes...either way, I will have been vendicated for
not passing judgement....

If I _had_ had a personal experience in this field, then without
a doubt I would be standing on it and allowing others to believe
as they choose.

I dodge nothing...I will give you my honest opinion...but I
cannot tell you I know something I do not.  I will not tell you
something as fact that I know is not...I Sir, will not lie about
something.

Example:  I have a friend who is blind.  He has known me for 30
years and loves me like a brother.  One day, while playing
around with him, I told him I had seen a UFO land in a cornfield
in the boondocks outside our town...I said I had watched from
about 50 yards away as a door opened and a ramp slid down to the
ground.. there was a white light inside the craft... I told him
that suddenly, a being appeared in the door and walked down the
ramp...etc., etc... My friend believed every word I told
him...He sat there hanging on every word I spoke...He trusted
me...

Well, Roger, I finally stopped and told him it was all just a
joke. The look on his face which lasted only a moment, and then
broke into laughter, was one I shall never forget...

Sure he thought it was funny, but, Roger, From that point on, I
created a situation to fill his mind called "doubt."

No matter that I told him it was a joke.  If I were to actually
have that type of experience again, and tell him; even if he
said he believed me, I know there would always be that little
bit of doubt in his mind as to whether I was telling him the
truth or just telling him another story.

I do not ever want to see that look on the face of anyone I know
or share UFO information with again, as long as I live.

Thus, I will not make claims which I have not experienced. As
far as opinions go...they are of no good...just speculation. I
don't have the billions of dollars necessary to "verify" all of
the info we receive on a daily basis...if I did, I would. I can
be very choosy...I have been in this field long enough to choose
whom I talk to and whom I ignore....but, Roger, I do not wish to
be that way...I think the greatest thing we can bring to this
list is "UNITY."  Good manners and a good attitude are essential
to doing this...

>I know of no "facts" or "evidence" uncovered by anyone on this
>list, regardless of their "field work", that has added to our
>over all knowledge anymore than some of the "armchair" UFO
>enthusiasts that also participate. In fact, some of the
>"armchair" members have actually brought up some interesting
>things for discussion. So when Roger asks, "Who the hell are you
>to judge me?" he has a legitimate point and I think you owe him
>an apology.

So, if I were to say that "I have metal samples from something
which allegedly crashed in Northern Indiana back in the 70's",
that would not apply as proof either, would it? I thought not.
So, I won't say it...<g>

>But then what do I know? I don't have the "field" experience
>that you do so I guess my opinion means nothing, also.

Roger...your opinion is just as important as mine....I have no
problem with opinions.  What I have is trouble with
Authoratative Figures, who profess to know what is right and
good for all of us and indicate that we should accept their
input as gospel.... Please forgive me if I present that type of
attitude.  It is not intended...<smile>

No, feel free to chew on my ears any time you wish...I'm, a big
boy, I can take it...but, know, I can give as good as I get...
sometimes better. <g> ha, ha, ha....

I don't mind double intimidation, from both parties...but I do
mind intimidation from one source only, with the undertones
which imply that you had better not reply, but keep your mouth
shut and accept it...P--- on that!

>Roger Evans

I am proud to know you Roger Evans...you are not afraid to say
what you feel, even if you suspect there will be a big discussion
to follow....

Keep it up...you are good for Ufology.
I once told Phil Klass the same thing...
I told him if it wasn't for him, we UFO
investigators would be fruther off in left
field than we already were...
He looked shocked...but then smiled...
Regardless of what most think of Phil,
I like him...he can be very entertaining
when you get him in a group discussion..

For anyone who is reading this and was in Alburquerque, NM, at
the 1992 MUFON Convention, and happened to be in the bar area,
with Don Ecker, Robert Dean, Phil Klass and others, will know
what I am talking about...Phill was very entertaining that
night...<g>

Ok...take care Roger.


REgards, Mike





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 4

               Re: Military Ability to Detect & Identify UFOs

From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net>
Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1999 17:14:18 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 04 Jan 1999 11:37:09 -0500
Subject: Re: Military Ability to Detect & Identify UFOs


>Date: Sun, 03 Jan 1999 11:28:11 -0800
>From: Perry Mick <perrym@teleport.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>,
>Subject: Re: Military Ability to Detect & Identify UFOs

>>What? What! Where did you or anyone else get the idea that the
>>moon rotates on it's axis? The moon rotates around the earth,
>>keeping the same face to us at all times. It does not rotate as
>>the earth rotates...

>It's such a simple thing, I think people just get confused by
>the language used to describe it.

>The moon does rotate, but it's period of rotation is the same as
>it's orbital period around the earth. That is why it always
>keeps the same face towards us.

If it didn't rotate on its axis, it would show one face to Asia,
and the opposite face to North America.

Greg Sandow





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 4

                       Re: C. B. Moore's '49 Sighting

From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1999 22:10:29 EST
Fwd Date: Mon, 04 Jan 1999 11:47:33 -0500
Subject: Re: C. B. Moore's '49 Sighting


>From: Brad Sparks <RB47Expert@aol.com>
>Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1998 13:31:03 EST
>Fwd Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 12:21:07 -0500
>Subject: Re: C. B. Moore's '49 Sighting

>>From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@aol.com>
>>Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 14:06:06 EST
>>Fwd Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 21:00:58 -0500
>>Subject: Re: C. B. Moore's '49 Sighting

<snip>

>I am providing this background in order to establish that my
>credentials as a long-time UFO investigator are secure and that
>I am not a knee-jerk debunker, though I am a serious critical
>thinker and find much of "UFOlogy" today to be based on a flimsy
> house of cards and chimera.

I was certainly not personally criticizing Brad Sparks, although
I was aware that he had proposed the "bouncing meteor"
explanation for the 1949 Arrey sighting of Charles Moore and
others. However, I was criticizing his meteor theory because I
felt it to be seriously deficient for the reasons I enumerated
in my original post.

<snip>

>Back in 1979 I first realized that the Charles B. Moore case of
>April 24, 1949, near Arrey, New Mexico, appeared to be that of
>an escaping or tangential meteor, i.e., a meteor that skipped
>back out into space instead of burning up in the earth's
>atmosphere or crashing into the ground as a meteorite. Since
>that time I've been compiling research data on similar such
>cases.

>Here are some answers to the recently posted objections to
>explaining Moore's 1949 sighting as an escaping or tangential
>meteor:

>1. Approx. 60-second Duration: The Rocky Mountain Fireball of
>Aug 10, 1972, was tracked by classified Air Force DSP
>missile-warning satellites which proved for the first time in
>history that a meteor had entered the earth's atmosphere then
>bounced back into outer space. The DSP sensor data so far
>declassified shows a tracking duration of 101.2 seconds, and a
>number of ground observers were able to observe it nearly
>horizon-to-horizon for upwards of 60 seconds. If the Arrey
>meteor braked close to escape velocity it could extend these
>durations perhaps by 20% or more.

I was unaware of this information. Thanks. Obviously a meteor
could last for 60 seconds. So toss that objection in the trash
can. On the other hand, all other aspects of the 1972 daylight
fireball were very unlike the Moore 1949 sighting. The 1972
fireball was very obvious and attracted the attention of
thousands. It was bright, large, with a long flaming tail, and
constantly spitting off pieces of molten matter. And it flew on
a ballistic trajectory.

>2. No contrail or "meteor train." Most meteors do not leave a
>"train" (the technical term in meteoritics for what we would
>perhaps better term a "contrail").

That's because the vast majority of meteors are little more than
specks of dust. Yet what Brad Sparks is proposing is a very
substantial chunk of matter that could endure high speed passage
through our atmosphere for at least a minute without burning up.
This will inevitably produce the spectacular characteristics of
the 1972 fireball, i.e., large, bright flaming fireball,
pronounced trail, etc. Yet NONE of these characteristics were
associated with the Arrey 1949 sighting.

I would very much like to know of any documented daylight,
long-duration fireball sightings in which there was no
associated trail. Even an artificial object like the space
shuttle which is designed NOT to disintegrate (or more
accurately, disintegrate very slowly and in a very controlled
fashion), leaves a very pronounced trail (at least at night when
I have seen it). It also appears to be much larger than a minute
of arc (the size of the Arrey object). The shuttle fireball was
probably on the order of 10-15 minarc, or 1/3 to 1/2 the size of
the moon. Furthermore, in returning from orbit, it would be
flying considerably slower than a tangential escaping meteor,
yet it still puts on a spectacular show from frictional heating.
Not so the Arrey object.

>2a. Seeming lack of other witnesses. This is a problem for a UFO
>as it is for a meteor -- why wasn't the UFO seen by numerous
>people?

A characteristic of many true unknowns (noted clear back in 1947
by Gen. Schulgen in his infamous memo) is their vertical
characteristic, i.e. they tend to appear and disappear in a
vertical direction, and operate, and hence are seen, over a
correspondingly small area.

This, however, is not the case with these long-lived tangential
fireballs, such as in 1972. They can travel hundreds of miles
horizontally while in our atmosphere, put on a spectacular
pyrotechnic show that draws people's attention, and are
potentially visible along the length of the path for tens of
thousands of square miles.

E.g., if the Arrey object averaged 6 miles/sec over 60 seconds,
then it travelled about 360 miles during its observation. If it
was at an altitude of 60 miles, then observers to either side of
it over 600 miles away would still potentially see it above the
horizon (assuming no line-of-sight obstructions). At least where
Moore and company made their sighting, the skies were completely
clear. This leaves a potential observable area from all
directions of over half a million square miles. Even if we chop
this by 80% because of daylight, obstructions, etc., we still
get over 100,000 sq. miles of observation area. Yet as far as
anyone knows, there weren't any other reports of this object,
completely unlike typical major fireball events.

Aside from the lack of normal spectacular fireball features, I
suggested this lack of witnesses might also be partly due to the
sparse population in the region of the sighting. While this is
generally true, it is also true that they would have lost sight
of the object when it passed very near Albuquerque, the most
densely populated area of the state. So again, one must wonder
where all the sightings were.

>Perhaps the meteor/UFO WAS seen but we don't have the
>reports because the reports are inaccessible in government files
>or reports were never made at all (Stan Friedman's famous
>overused dictum "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"
>applies here). In late April 1949 the corrosive Sidney Shallett
>article in Saturday Evening Post had just come out which mocked
>and ridiculed UFO witnesses and their reports, and several weeks
>earlier Project SIGN had been transformed into the unfriendly
>anti-UFO Project GRUDGE, hence witness reporting was officially
>stigmatized and no doubt stymied.

I find this theory for lack of witnesses extremely strained. The
most probable reason that nobody else reported this object was
because it was extremely tiny and not very bright. It was not
the sort of thing to draw attention to itself. The Moore group
seemingly only caught sight of this otherwise inconspicuous
object because 1) It was part of their job to be intensely
watching the sky at the time, and 2) it happened to be in the
same region of the sky as their tracked balloon.

As for active suppression of eyewitness accounts, we could
compare this event with another fireball that occurred in the
area just a few months before and was seen by thousands for
hundreds of miles in all directions. This was the giant green
fireball of Jan. 30, 1949 seen all over northern New Mexico and
into the Texas Panhandle. This prompted an extensive secret
investigation by the Air Force, a memo of searching for a
crashed saucer, and secret conferences to discuss the findings.
At one of these conferences, it was noted that attempts were
indeed made to keep mention of the event out of the media.
However, I have a front page article from the Albuquerque
Journal of Jan. 31 (also one from the Santa Fe New Mexican) in
which a number of locals reported seeing the object. Dr. LaPaz,
the local meteor expert and lead Air Force investigator, also
invited the public to send him any reports. The Santa Fe New
Mexican article was from United Press, which means the event was
probably mentioned in a fair number of papers throughout the
country. Frankly it would be pretty difficult to keep something
like this out of the newspapers.

Another interesting point is that LaPaz eventually triangulated
the trajectory to the panhandle of Texas. Like the Arrey object,
this object also flew horizontally. However, it was at much
lower altitude than the Arrey object, no more than 10 miles
high, and visible for only a few seconds, and yet was seen by a
large number of people, obviously very low on the horizon, from
Albuquerque, some 250 miles away. One pilot reported seeing it
from Gallup, about 400 miles distant. This just emphasizes that
major fireballs can be seen from surprisingly large distances,
but seemingly not the Arrey object, which practically passed
right over Albuquerque. In all fairness, however, the Jan. 30
fireball happened just after nightfall, which would make the
event much more noticeable to people.

>3. Object's shape. The object could not possibly have had a
>"well-defined shape" if as reported by Moore he was unable to
>obtain a "hard or clear focus, and no good detail was
>observable."

Moore reported getting glimpses of it through the theodolite as
he attempted to track it. He reported it being elliptical in
shape, 2-1/2 to 3 times as long as it was wide. He could see
that it nearly filled the field of view of his 25 power
telescope. From this he deduced that it was approximately 100
feet in length.

> The object was much too small to be seen with the
>naked eye (0.02 degree is at the limit of resolution by the
>human eye)

Doesn't that alone strike you as a little weird for a
long-duration fireball? Even speck-of-dust shooting stars
produce glowing paths that are at least .02 deg (or 1 minarc)
wide. Remember this "meteor" would have to have very substantial
mass to survive long transit through the atmosphere. It's
streaking through our atmosphere at a bare minimum of 5 miles
per second, probably faster. It's going to be blazing hot from
friction. The surface is rapidly being melted away. The
surrounding air is likewise extremely hot and ionized.  This
creates a large glowing mass, much larger than the actual object
itself. People report big, bright fireballs. Descriptions like
"a quarter of the size of the full moon" are typical. But this
thing was tiny and scarcely noticeable, even though it was
bright enough to clearly stand out from the daylight sky.

So again we run into this conundrum. A meteor would have be a
big mass to survive a long passage through the atmosphere. Thus
it should have created a big, bright, flaming fireball with a
prominent trail. Yet this object had none of these
characteristics.

> so the only detail that could have been seen would
>have had to have been observed through the theodolite. Such a
>rapidly moving object would have been difficult to keep within
>the extremely narrow field of view of the theodolite (FOV
>roughly the same size as the object about 0.02 deg.), at 5
>degrees/second this would mean a movement of about 250 fields of
>view per second!

A very experienced user of a theodolite, as Moore was, can track
a smoothly moving object using the unaided eye with its large
field of view to guide the theodolite while simultaneously
looking through the eyepiece of the scope with the other eye. It
is thus possible to obtain glimpses of the object even under
these very unfavorable conditions. I have done something similar
many times on the guide scope of my reflecting telescope when
following something like a jet plane. This is actually much more
awkward than in the Moore situation, since the scope is on an
equatorial mount and is big and bulky. I have even been able to
track a plane with some success looking solely through the 50X
eyepiece of the main scope without benefit of the unaided eye to
maintain position. Once the object is located, it is usually
possible to anticipate its movement and move the scope to keep
up with it. In short, Moore very likely got a number of glimpses
of the object through the scope just like he said.

>The object disappeared into the glare of the sun about midway
>through the sighting and the course seemed to also change about
>that time. Meteor fragmentation probably occurred at that point
>which was not visible due to the sun (see next point for more
>discussion on this).

This was not the only major course change, at least two others
occurring toward the end of the sighting when they weren't
looking into the sun. Fragmentation was not observed. In any
case, fragmentation could not possibly cause the huge course
changes that were observed, spelled out in more detail below.

> Small fragments could have broken off at
>other points which would not have been visible to the naked eye
>because of the small size, and not visible through the
>theodolite because it was out of focus

I don't understand why the theodolite would have been out of
focus. They were initially tracking a balloon at some distance
from them. The theodolite would be focused at infinity at all
times.

> or because the main
>object filled or dominated the small field of view thus blocking
>the split-second view of any small fragments.

If you compare this object with the 1972 one, people with their
unaided eyes had no problems at all seeing bright, spark-like
fragments continually breaking off the main body in the 1972
meteor. That was also a daylight meteor. But nobody reported
seeing any fragments at all with the Arrey meteorite despite 60
seconds of observation.

The fact is there is NO supporting evidence that there was any
fragmentation of this object at any point in its flight.

>If fragments flew
>off at angular velocities comparable to the main body but in
>differing directions, then even if a fragment could have been
>seen across as much as half of the theodolite's field of view,
>it would have been visible for only about 0.002 second (2
>milliseconds), too brief to have been seen at all. The human
>retina's refresh rate or "flicker speed" (as with movie camera
>and television frame speeds) is about 20 to 30 milliseconds.
>Nothing in sight for less than this interval can be seen unless
>it emits a powerful enough flash of light as to register on the
>retina despite the brevity, and small meteor fragments by
>definition would inherently not have been as bright as the main
>body.

Which was already anomalously dim for a long-lived meteor
fireball.

Once again I find Brad Sparks arguing that everything that
should have been there was miniscule or dim to the point of
invisibility, yet this was a meteor massive enough to survive a
very long period of time.

>4. Variable or Linear Trajectory. As Rudiak points out, the
>account obtained by James McDonald from Moore in about 1967
>indicates a purely linear or ballistic trajectory consistent
>with a meteor. However, the original azimuth/elevation data from
>the theodolite in 1949 do indicate a course change.

>But it must
>be recognized that a meteor that fragments MUST change course,
>by the same laws of conservation of momentum that are observed
>every day with subatomic particles that fragment with a "main
>body" (the heavier particle) being deflected from its path while
>smaller particles fly off in differing directions.

Well, no, not really. Energy also has to be conserved. The
object could break in half, but unless there is some sort of
energy to separate the halves laterally, both halves would
continue on their original course flying side by side.

So what would a course change require? First of all we're
talking about a very large course change -- not 1 or 2 degrees
but 40 or 50 degrees. Let's call it 45 degrees to keep it
simple. At 45 deg, the new sideways velocity will equal the
original forward velocity. Thus if the "meteor" is moving
forward at 20,000 mph, the new perpendicular velocity vector
required for the course change will likewise be 20,000 mph! A
high velocity like this would require some massive explosion,
which would probably shatter the meteor and end its flight right
then and there.

Nor can the main body of the meteor simply eject smaller
fragments to effect such an enormous course change. E.g., if a
fragment 10% of the main mass was ejected sideways, what would
its velocity have to be to propel the main mass in the opposite
direction by 20,000 mph? Momentum conservation tells us it would
have to fly off at 180,000 mph!!

On the other hand, if Moore and company lost sight of the main
mass after the explosion and instead tracked a fragment ejected
by an explosion at 20,000 mph, then why would this smaller
fragment seem no different in appearance from the original main
object? In fact, Brad Sparks is arguing that ejected smaller
fragments would be invisible to the ground observers to try to
get around the problem that the ground observers reported to
fragmentation of the object at all.

No matter how one goes at this, the scenario required for the
large course change seems preposterous. And this wasn't the only
large course change.

> In addition,
>a meteor with a random aerodynamic shape and orientation could
>"bounce" in a HORIZONTAL direction just as well as in the
>VERTICAL direction, without ANY FRAGMENTATION.

I don't know that that has ever been observed with real meteors.
I've seen thousands of shooting stars and not one has ever
noticeably changed course. And if the above argument had any
merit, these mostly tiny grains of sand should be affected much
more strongly by atmospheric buffering than some big mass.

I would also like to know how an object of random aerodynamic
shape and orientation would be deflected in a strictly nonrandom
direction. Wouldn't it be deflected a little bit one way, then
another, so that the net course change would again end up
approximately zero? I seriously doubt that any postulated
hypothesis such as a "boomerang" or "curve ball" meteor would
stand up to careful scrutiny.

The only thing I can imagine that would cause a significant
course change would be the so-called Coriolis force. An object
moving that fast on a northward ballistic trajectory would
appear to deflect to the left a few degrees over a minute's time
because of the rotation of the Earth underneath it.

>4a. The Object's Rise at the End. The approximately 4-degree
>ascent of the Arrey object in 1949 is roughly comparable to the
>2-degree rise of the Rocky Mountain Fireball in 1972 that was
>measured by DSP satellite triangulation. Given the round-off
>errors in the figures hurriedly taken down by Moore's crew
>(notice they did NOT report theodolite readings to a minute of
>arc or 0.017 deg. as the instrument was capable of providing),
>the 25 and 29-degree readings could easily have been +/- 0.5
>degree each or even +/- 1 degree each, so the "rise" could have
>been from say 25.5 to 28.5 degrees or even 26 to 28 degrees.
>Thus the Arrey object might really have ascended by the same
>2-degree angle as did the Rocky Mountain Fireball.

First of all, at the point that they noticed the object rising,
the object had for a short time ceased to move relative to their
position, i.e., it was moving in a line-of-sight direction
directly away from them (or possibly toward them or even
hovering if an artificial object, but lets assume away as a good
meteor should go). This represents yet another drastic course
change. First the object was in the SSW at 45 deg elevation
heading eastward. Then in turned in the ESE at about 60 deg
elevation and headed northward, a deflection of some 40 or 50
degrees. This alone would have meteor experts rolling their eyes
and exclaiming "Impossible." Then this "meteor" arcs northward
and downward across the sky until it is in the NNE at an
elevation of 25 deg where it ceases to descend and the azimuth
is no longer changing. It's now moving directly away from the
observation point.

If you do even a crude sketch of this, it is obvious that once
again the "meteor" has changed course by a whopping 40 or 50
degrees, not 2 degrees. This is some meteor!

At that point the object appeared to rise in elevation by 4
degrees. This rise occurred over a number of seconds (as I
recall about 10 seconds), so this angular movement was an order
of magnitude less than the earlier 5 deg/sec. One would assume
the accuracy of their tracking would improve correspondingly.

But even if one again fudges the data and reduces the elevation
change to 2 degrees rather than 4 degrees, please note this is a
_projected_ change in angle, not an absolute change. They
weren't observing the object from the side but from in back as
it moved off in a more-or-less radial direction. Thus the actual
absolute deflection upward was greater than the projected
angular elevation change from their observation point.

Finding the actual deflection would require knowing the speed of
the object as it moved radially away, its height above the
ground, and the duration of the elevation change. E.g., if the
object were 60 miles above the earth at the beginning of its
rise, traveling at 5 miles per second, and observed for 10
seconds, then the actual deflection from original path is around
6 degrees if the _projected_ elevation change was 2 degrees. And
if the elevation change was their reported 4 degrees, then
actual deflection would have been around 12 degrees.

This is not as drastic as the two other course changes of around
40-50 degrees, but still considerably more than the benchmark 2
degree deflection of the Rocky Mountain fireball.

>5. Speed. Moore ASSUMED escape velocity in order to estimate an
>altitude and distance to the object, since quite logically the
>object clearly was not headed for the ground and did appear to
>have ESCAPED the earth's gravity or at the very least have
>entered earth orbit

Please note that this almost directly contradicts what Brad
Sparks says further below, in which he declares that no one
thought of an escaping meteor before. Well obviously they WERE
thinking in terms of an escaping something or other. If it had
characteristics of a meteor they undoubtedly would have thought
escaping meteor. But it didn't.

>(as had long been suspected of the great
>fireball meteor procession seen by numerous observers from
>Ontario to New Jersey and Bermuda in 1913).

Here I feel Brad Sparks is trying to explain one highly
anomalous event by comparing it to another, even more anomalous
one, which has also never been adequately explained. Affixing
the word "meteor" to both events does not make either one so,
considering the many factors that were completely unlike normal,
well-behaved meteor fireballs.

Let's quickly look at the 1913 fireball procession to see just
how extraordinary it was. (The following information BTW was
taken from a review of the sighting in Arthur Bray's book "The
UFO Connection.")  It was originally studied by California
astronomer Dr. C. A. Chant, who noted some of the following
anomalies that left him scratching his head. There were multiple
groups of objects following right after another, some composed
of perhaps dozens of objects, and flying in perfect formation
that was retained throughout the display. Even when parts seemed
to break off, they continued to follow the parent body without
loss of speed rather than being dragged down to earth by air
friction (there were a few reported exceptions, however). And
these objects seemed to be flying relatively low, so there
should have been considerable air friction. For one thing, they
could be heard rumbling in the sky. Chant originally estimated
the altitude at only 26 miles based on available data, then
revised it upward to 34 miles. Another contemporary astronomer,
W. F. Denning, raised this to the more rarefied altitude of 38
miles. He too had big problems with the multiple fireballs not
being dragged to Earth by friction.

Most extraordinary, however, was the enormous range and duration
of the fireballs. Chance placed the minimum flight path at 2400
miles, requiring 4 to 5 minutes for each object to cover its
entire observed track. In 1968, John O'Keefe in the R.A.S.C.
Journal reported more historical data showing that the event
actually extended some 6000 miles, from Brazil to western
Canada. At the upper end of estimated speed of 10 miles/second
or 36,000 mph, this required 10 minutes of transit time. At the
lower end of the speed spectrum of 5 miles/second, which also
seemed to best-fit the seeming constant-altitude circular
trajectory of the fireball train (according to British meteor
expert M. Davidson), a transit time of 20 miles would be needed.

The problem is nobody can understand how multiple "meteors" like
this could survive such a lengthy, high-speed passage through
the atmosphere without either being burned up or dragged to
earth by friction. Chant called it "quite without parallel," "a
very exceptional occurrence," and "truly extraordinary."

Bray also quoted a "well-known astronomer who holds a high
position (who shall remain unnamed)" who wrote, "I too have been
puzzled by the "meteor" explanation and feel that, in the light
of the full UFO phenomenon, this hypothesis must be seriously
questioned."

The same, I think, applies to the 1949 Arrey sighting.

>The speeds that were posted recently (see below) are in error by
>more than 20%, they are understated,

No, not really. I just used different assumptions. See below.

>and correcting the errors
>brings us about half way even to the 35,000 mph meteor velocity
>cited, though that is not really necessary as much slower
>meteors are on record. The Rocky Mountain Fireball was tracked
>by DSP satellite to a minimum speed of 31,790 mph, for example.

Please note the operative word "minimum" here. This would be
AFTER friction and gravity had already slowed the object. During
the rest of the passage, a passive object like a meteor would
have been travelling faster.

>For an object 60 miles high at 60 degrees maximum elevation and
>an angular speed of 5 degrees/second, the slant-range distance
>is found from 60/(sin 60 degs.) = 69 miles approx. and the speed
>is about 6 miles/second or 22,000 mph (NOT 5 miles/sec or 18,000
>mph). At 80 miles high the distance is 92 miles and the speed is
>about 29,000 mph (not 24,000 mph).

However, based on Dr. James McDonald's report from the
Congressional Record, I was assuming a ballistic trajectory,
which in this sighting would have taken the object directly
overhead at closest approach and maximum angular velocity of 5
deg/sec. 60 miles high at the zenith is also 60 miles distant
from the observers. I was also merely giving this as a simple
example of how Moore's estimate of 18,000 to 25,000 mph (I used
24,000 mph) translated into altitudes of 60 to 80 miles (at the
zenith).

Now as noted previously by Brad Sparks, Moore et al were
actually working in reverse. They assumed the object probably
DID escape from earth and had a velocity somewhere between
orbital velocity of about 18,000 mph and escape velocity of
25,000 mph. From that you can estimate altitude from the rate of
angular change.

There are other ways to estimate altitude and speed. There was
no sound; therefore the object must have been higher than about
30 miles altitude. And since frictional glow of incoming objects
doesn't start until about 70 miles, the object was unlikely to
have been higher than that. 70 miles altitude at 60 degrees
elevation and 5 deg/sec would translate into a maximum speed of
25,000 mph. But conceivably it could have been half of that or
less. We still have a very slow speed for a meteor either way.

>6. No One Thought of an Escaping Meteor Before.

No, as mentioned by Brad Sparks himself, they actually did think
in terms of escape to derive estimates of speed and height. The
real problem was this object did not behave like a meteor:
highly erratic trajectory, lack of trail, etc.

> Until the 1972
>Rocky Mountain meteor was PROVEN to have escaped back into outer
>space by highly classified satellite data, NO ONE in astronomy
>recognized the existence of escaping meteors whether a Donald
>Menzel or anyone else, so obviously such a Space Age- type
>explanation was not previously considered for the Arrey case in
>pre- Sputnik 1949. In fact it was evidently considered an
>IMPOSSIBILITY.

No, this is nonsense. E.g., the 1912 event was attributed to
tangential meteors that escaped back into space by the
astronomers, like Chant, who first reported on it in 1913. They
were well aware of simple Newtonian mechanics, of orbital and
escape velocities. This was hardly new stuff. They knew, e.g.,
that a bare minimum of about 5 miles/second was needed for the
objects to maintain a circular orbital trajectory and constant
altitude and anything greater than this would cause the bodies
to eventually skip out into space. Anything less and the objects
would certainly fall to earth. Theoretically the possibility of
such a grazing collision was well known since the time of
Newton. This was hardly a "Space Age-type explanation."

That solid experimental data of an actual event was lacking
until 1972 is a whole other matter. Likewise there was no direct
evidence of neutron stars or black holes or gravitational lenses
or planets around other solar systems or neutrinos from
supernova explosions until some time after they were all
theoretically predicted, when instrumentation and observation
finally caught up with theory.

> And it doesn't matter that C. B. Moore has a
>distinguished scientific career or not, it doesn't change the
>facts of the sighting. To try to sway the facts of a case based
>on what did NOT enter the MINDS of numbers of fallible PEOPLE,
>instead of what the actual sighting details convey, is a tenuous
>argument at best.

What the sighting details actually convey is that this object
could not have been a meteor. And certainly a big-time debunker
like Menzel (a major 20th century astronomer whatever else we
may think of him) was not loath to explaining away any number of
UFO sightings as meteors. No, I think even Menzel had big
problems with a meteor, all of which I have spelled out ad
nauseaum: extreme nonballistic trajectory, absence of trail,
small size and dimness for such a long-lived object, etc.

>I very much enjoyed this analysis and appreciate the posting
>that provided much food for thought in the interesting technical
>comments made on this classic 1949 case.

>Brad Sparks

Likewise Brad. I just don't buy the meteor explanation. It makes
no sense.






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 4

                  Carbon Nanotubes -- Alien Supermaterial?

From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1999 23:46:22 EST
Fwd Date: Mon, 04 Jan 1999 11:50:20 -0500
Subject: Carbon Nanotubes -- Alien Supermaterial?


Here's a brief article in the Jan. 1999 issue of Discover
Magazine on same of the latest known remarkable properties of
carbon nanotubes. A quick summary of these properties from this
article and elsewhere:

1. Up to 100 times greater tensile strength than steel --
perhaps strongest material theoretically possible.

2. Best conductor of heat of any material.

3. Superconductor or near-superconductor at room tempertures
(properties 2 & 3 closely related). They are also less dense,
hence lighter in weight, than normal metallic or ceramic
superconductors.

4. Can also be configured to behave like normal metals or
semiconductors -- prototype nanotube transistor has been made.
Thus electronics can theoretically be integrated directly into
superstrong structural material.

Carbon nanotubes would make one helluva material from which
build a futuristic aircraft or spacecraft. Light in weight, yet
tremendously strong and with high heat dispersal properties. All
sorts of electronics could be integrated directly into the skin
of the craft -- sensors, lights, electronic camouflage,
computational devices, you name it.

Superconducting properties could be used to build magnetic
energy storage rings integrated directly into the hull. Or the
tremendous strength could be used to manufacture humble
flywheels rotating at high speed that could also be used to
store large quantities of energy.

If the material can conduct sufficient current, very powerful
magnetic fields could be generated in a lightweight craft. This
would be the basis for practical magnetohydrodynamic atmospheric
propulsion. Strong magnetic fields could also be used for
partial "inertial dampening" to protect occupants from the
effects of high acceleration (same principle as the "floating
frog" demonstration from last year). Additionally, the great
strength of the material would keep any supermagnet from
literally exploding, a serious problem that must be dealt with
in the design of any powerful magnet.

Currently carbon nanotubes are little more than microscopic
whiskers in research laboratories. However, the potential is
obviously enormous. It sounds like the sort of material with
which to build our mythical flying saucers (perhaps integrated
with metals in the form of composites or laminates of various
types).

With structural elements, energy storage, propulsion, and
electronics perhaps all integrated and constructed from the same
basic material, the remains of an exploded saucer might look a
good deal more uniform than that of an exploded 747. Witnesses
handling such material might also speak of it being very
lightweight yet being resistant to heat and having great
strength.

I think most of you can guess what I'm driving at here. Anyway,
here's the article.

---------------------------------------

January 1999, Discover Magazine, page 38

Technology 1998

Tomorrow's Tubes

Ever since they were discovered in 1991, carbon nanotubes --
cylindrical molecules of graphite that look a bitr like
rolled-up chicken wire -- have been touted as the material of
the future. Pound for pound, carbon nanotubes are about a
hundred times stronger than steel and transport heat better than
any other known material. But while bridges suspended from
whisker-thin nanotube cables are probably some decades away, a
newly discovered realm of application for the strange molecules
-- electronics -- may be at hand.

When a carbon atom links up with neighboring carbons to make a
sheet of graphite, some of the atoms' electrons are left
unbound, free to roam around and conduct electricity throughout
the sheet. Because carbon nanotubes are simply graphite tubes,
it was not surprising that they could also conduct electricity.

But in June, Walter de Heer and his colleagues at Georgia Tech
found that nanotubes can do something no ordinary wires can do
-- conduct electricity with almost no resistance at room
temperature.

While nanotubes are not superconductors (the current in a
superconductor, unlike that in nanotubes, continues to flow even
when the power source is shut off), their highly regular
molecular structure allows electrons to flow freely without
losing energy in collisions with stray atoms. Resistance-free
nanotube wires could greatly reduce the size of electronic
components.

Other research groups found equally surprising properties. In
January, teams at Harvard and at Delft University of Technology
in the Netherlands demonstrated that nanotubes made of a single
layer of carbon could conduct electricity either like a metal or
like a semiconductor, depending on the alignment of carbon atoms
in the nanotube. By May, Cees Dekker of the Delft team had
managed to rig up the world's first nanotube transitor; it was
less than a tenth of the size of a conventional semiconductor
transistor.

Physicsts are already talking about stringing together nanotubes
to create carbon-based molecular electronic devices to replace
the ubiquitous silicon- based computer chips.

Says Walter de Heer: "There's a new era of electronics awaiting
for us."

--Jeffrey Winters






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 4

                      Re: Sherman J. Larsen and Ufology

From: Jan Aldrich <jan@cyberzone.net>
Date: Sun, 03 Jan 1999 23:12:29 -0800
Fwd Date: Mon, 04 Jan 1999 11:58:07 -0500
Subject: Re: Sherman J. Larsen and Ufology

>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
>Date: Sat, 02 Jan 99 14:25:25 PST
>Fwd Date: Sun, 03 Jan 1999 12:38:31 -0500
>Subject: Re: Sherman J. Larsen and Ufology

>>Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1998 00:14:16 -0500
>>From: Gary Alevy <galevy@pipeline.com>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>Subject: Re: Sherman J. Larsen and Ufology

>>>From: "Stan Friedman" <fsphys@brunnet.net>
>>>To: "UFO UpDates - Toronto" <updates@globalserve.net>
>>>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Sherman J. Larsen and Ufology
>>>Date: Sat, 26 Dec 1998 22:48:08 -0400

<snip>

Greetings List,

I said I wouldn't post on this topic, but I think these comments
are warranted.

In the last few weeks Jerry Clark has argued about almost
everything, but I must say his assessment of Hynek, certainly is
compelling.

Isabel Davis derided Hynek as, "that timid little man!"  She
really took after him in her letters for what she felt was a
slight to serious investigators in Hynek's "Yale Scientific
Magazine" article.

>As anyone who has spent a lot of time on the question of
>Allen Hynek, as I have, would likely agree, Allen was almost
>a classic case of cognitive dissonance: a guy who was able
>to hold two equal and opposite thoughts in his head at one
>time.

>On one level he was an Air Force debunker; on the other, he was
>bugged by the suspicion that maybe there was something --
>something big -- going on.  He also juggled conflicting
>interests.  One, not necessarily admirable but entirely
>understandable, was the paycheck the Air Force gave him.  In the
>end it helped educate his children, no small consideration as
>any parent on this list will understand.

I think Hynek wanted to consider UFOs seriously and lend support
to a few investigators on the extreme QT.  How Vallee came to
be a Northwestern University would, I believe, be a tale.

>There was also his desire, as a guy who had a career in
>astronomy to protect, not to get too far ahead of his scientific
>colleagues, who he knew would criticize him vehemently if he
>began to champion the notion that UFO reports are genuinely
>anomalous.  (This, of course, did happen eventually.)  There was
>also the consideration that his views on the subject fluctuated
>wildly.  In the late 1950s he was even privately urging that the
>term "unidentified flying objects" be jettisoned because it
>implied that there were objects which could fly.  Allen was so
>conflicted on this subject (as private and official memoranda
>richly confirm) that sometimes one gets the impression that his
>view of UFOs depended upon which side of the bed he got up from
>on a particular day.

Scientific reputations are hard to repair after they are
broken.  A consideration surely.  Hynek did give some
support to scientists to look at UFOs after the "swamp-gas"
episode.

Hynek's "conversation" is certainly not at this point, but
much before.  His slipping of USAF reports to CSI-NY, I guess
shows him to be a double agent. <BG>

Hynek indicated that he was worried that he had given Ruppelt
incorrect about UFO sightings during "Moonwatch," but did
little to correct the record publically.

>The good Allen Hynek was privately critical of Donald Menzel's
>pseudoscientific explanations of UFO reports (see, for example,
>The UFO Encyclopedia, 2nd Ed., p. 634), and within Blue Book he
>was generally on the side of the angels -- though not to the
>point of directly confronting the bad guys.  As early as 1952 he
>cautiously told the Optical Society of America that puzzling
>reports existed and that witnesses ought not to be ridiculed.
>(It was here that he made the deserves-to-be immortal
>observation "Ridicule is not a part of the scientific method,
>and the public should not be taught that it is.")  He was
>depressed and frustrated by the Robertson panel's dismissive
>attitude.

>People tend to think that Hynek's emergence as a UFO proponent
>in the 1960s happened overnight.  It didn't. Even then there
>were false starts and stops, culminating in the embarrassing
>"swamp gas" episode which troubled Allen the rest of his life
>and to which he kept returning in both public and private
>discussion.  Ironically, it was ridicule -- ridicule on the
>opposite side, of lame-ass Air Force and bogus "scientific"
>explanations for UFO sightings -- that finally forced Allen into
>his role as proponent.  It is even possible that, had it not
>happened, he would have maintained an equivocal posture for
>years afterwards.

I think his trip to France 1955 was something, someone in the know
should comment on.  Did he met with Michel then?

>(An additional aspect of Hynek's cognitive dissonance: On one
>level, he was a trained, well-credentialed, accomplished
>scientist.  On the other, he entertained mystical notions and
>had a deep -- and, it seemed to me, profoundly credulous --
>fascination with occultism.)

He did seem to have a rapport with Col Friend and is almost
"gleeful" at checkmating NICAP in the 1960-61 House hearings.
"Our competetion" he calls them.  He claimed that he thought
Keyhoe was a mountebank which I take as so much trash talk.
I think he was well aware that NICAP was indeed as serious
as CSI.

The recluctance to come to the office when Vallee and Hynek
were just down the street from NICAP is another demonstration
of his extreme conservative nature.  I found that Vallee's and
Beckmen's concept of McDonald and NICAP was stuck in 1967.
How unfortunate they didn't get to know them better.

In Hynek's meeting with Coral in 1953, she comes out with the
impression that the Air Force will share with her.  Again,
another question mark.

>Hynek's chronic Hamlet-like indecision drove the aggressive,
>damn-the-torpedos James E. McDonald nuts, and he despised Allen
>for it.  "Despised," by the way, is not too mild a term. The
>contempt was palpable. McDonald, whose personality could not
>have been more different from Hynek's, found Allen's timidity
>infuriating and irresponsible, and he believed Allen had failed
>as a scientist.

Hynek said that McDonald was somewhat hypocritical because he
had a significant UFO sighting in 1954, but took almost a
decade to come forward.  (BTW Jerry, I urge you to publish
McDonald's sighting in IUR.)  McDonald's early letters to
Hall are somewhat tentative, but once he decides to come
forward, he jumps in with both feet.

>Even so, for all that he was willing to believe just about
>anything bad about Hynek,  McDonald was too smart to entertain
>paranoid notions or level goofy charges such as those we've been
>subjected to on this list.  Still, in common with Gary, he had
>no feeling for the complex human reality that underlay Hynek's
>long failure to step forward.  He could only conclude that Allen
>was a venal man who cared more about his AF consulting fees than
>he did about his duty as a scientist.

I saw one exchange at CUFOS, I think in which Hynek asks
McDonald when the bashing would end, and McDonald comes back
with a heated remark.  However,  McDonald says in another letter
to Hall, I think, that his head tells him he should ally himself
with Hynek while his heart couldn't forgive him for his failure
to speak out earlier.

However, when the attempt to set up a separate UFO organization
was made both McDonald and Hynek were to be officers and seek
grants for research, indication the breech was healing.

>History will have to decide which of these two men was right.
>In the meantime, it does neither history nor rational discourse
>any good to go fishing in schools of red herrings. The reality
>is complex and interesting enough.  A good book could be written
>on the subject, I am sure.  I am equally sure that Gary Alevy is
>not the one who will write it.

Agreed.
--
Jan Aldrich
Project 1947
http://www.iufog.org/project1947/
P. O. Box 391, Canterbury, CT 06331, USA





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 4

               Re: Military Ability to Detect & Identify UFOs

From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 00:32:51 EST
Fwd Date: Mon, 04 Jan 1999 12:00:30 -0500
Subject: Re: Military Ability to Detect & Identify UFOs


>From: Michael Christol <mchristo@mindspring.com>
>Date: Sat, 02 Jan 1999 18:39:33 -0600
>Fwd Date: Sun, 03 Jan 1999 13:04:43 -0500
>Subject: Re: Military Ability to Detect & Identify UFOs

>>From: Farley Scott <SCOTTF@HughesLuce.com>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>Subject: Re: Military Ability to Detect & Identify UFOs
>>Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1998 14:07:26 -0600

>>Others have already pointed out his bogus information such as
>>where he states that the moon does not rotate about its own
>>axis. This guy is supposed to be knowledgeable in celestial
>>mechanics?

>What? What! Where did you or anyone else get the idea that the
>moon rotates on it's axis? The moon rotates around the earth,
>keeping the same face to us at all times. It does not rotate as
>the earth rotates...

>Otherwise there would be no "backside" of the moon which is
>"unseen" by astronomers or the average person.

<snip>

>Please help me to understand this....

Dear Mike, Farley and List:

Of course the Moon rotates on its own axis, just as the Earth
rotates on its own. They are almost, but not quite, in
lockstep. It is, however, a misconception that we always see
exactly the same face. In fact we can see 59% of the Moon's
surface from the Earth over a 30 year period. This is due to a
number of Libratory Motions:

1) The Moon's orbit is not circular but slightly eccentric. As
described by Kepler's Second Law of Planetary Motion, the Moon
moves faster when it is closer to the Earth in its orbit than
when it is further away from the Earth in its orbit. The Earth
and Moon are rotating at relatively fixed rates. What happens
is that sometimes the Moon is moving faster and we get to peek
around the following edge, when it is moving slower our rotation
carries our view forward, allowing us to peek around the leading
edge. This Libration in Longitude allows us to see 7.75 degrees
around Eastern or Western limbs of the Moon at different times
of the month.

2) A Libration in Latitude occurs because the Moon's orbit is
inclined 5 degrees 9 minutes to the ecliptis. Put simply,
sometimes the Earth is slightly higher than the Moon, allowing
us a peek over the North Pole of the Moon, and sometimes we are
lower allowing us to peek under the South Pole.

3) There is a Diurnal Libration because when the Moon is just
coming up in the East and almost setting in the West, we are
viewing it from opposite sides of the Earth, resulting in a 1
degree peek around the East or West limb.

4) There are also smaller libratory movements.

The combined effects can mean that the center of the Moon can be
shifted as much as 10 degrees, 16 minutes. Try looking at the
Moon in binoculars, say, once a week. Check out the different
position of Mare Crisium (the left ear of the Man in the Moon).
You will be amazed at how it changes. Sky & Telescope or
Astronomy mags give predictions for these shifts in each issue.

Bob Young





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 4

               Re: Military Ability to Detect & Identify UFOs

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 01:46:28 EST
Fwd Date: Mon, 04 Jan 1999 12:07:46 -0500
Subject: Re: Military Ability to Detect & Identify UFOs


>Date: Sat, 02 Jan 1999 18:39:33 -0600
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Michael Christol <mchristo@mindspring.com>
>Subject: Re: Military Ability to Detect & Identify UFOs

>>From: Farley Scott <SCOTTF@HughesLuce.com>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>Subject: Re: Military Ability to Detect & Identify UFOs
>>Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1998 14:07:26 -0600

>>Others have already pointed out his bogus information such as
>>where he states that the moon does not rotate about its own
>>axis. This guy is supposed to be knowledgeable in celestial
>>mechanics?

>>Just my opinion.


>I seem to have missed something here...I can't believe that
>people think the moon rotates through a cycle ever so many
>hours...If it did, then we would see its other faces...

>Please help me to understand this....


Say Mike... put on your Captain Video Space helmet for a sec,
here, ol' buddy.... by the way, I still have one! Really!

Now think a moment. The moon doesn't have a backside, not
exactly. Yes. The moon presents the same face to us but the only
way it can is by turning on it's axis of rotation.

Take a tennis ball or if you're my age a Spaulding... remember
those? Place it at arms length and make that black "SPAULDING"
name face you.

Now keep your body still and slowly rotate your arm thru maybe
50 degrees or so, as much as you can without straining your
metarsals framous muss cules.

In order to keep the same face of the ball facing you as it
orbits around your bod, it's gotta turn on it's own axis... see?
It just happens to orbit on it's own axis once every time it
orbits around us... it's a miracle!

Now sit down. With all this excitement, you need a Freshly
Made. May I suggest our Ordinary Vinny? It's bold, but not at
all presumptuous, fresh of course, but not overly ripe. And,
they are mild!


Dr. Gesundt, Astronomer, Consultant to Carl Sagan and Steven
Hawking.... and I'm not just a client, I'm also the president of
Freshly Made.

By the way, everything I said above is a crock of tripe. The
moon has no axis at all. It's hollow. And it's got a three
cylinder, two stroke SAAB 96 ingine just below the surface.
God. Can't even kid around this list anymore without having to
post your resume and present references for pity sake. Just what
the hell do you guys think them aliens is doing here anyway.
They need oil to add to the gas or the moon just won't stay put!





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 4

                           Re: Cough, Korf, Ahem!

From: Sean Jones <tedric@tedric.demon.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 07:21:21 +0000
Fwd Date: Mon, 04 Jan 1999 12:17:31 -0500
Subject: Re: Cough, Korf, Ahem!


>From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
>Date: Sun, 03 Jan 1999 14:02:14 +0000
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Cough, Korf, Ahem!

Hi Roger

>Not.

>The only thing that matters is results.

>When I was a kid, I wanted to play baseball. I sucked at it.
>Therefore, I had to try twice as hard to make the team and put
>out a great deal more effort than other kids better than me.
>Needless to say I did not make the team. But, if "hard work" was
>the measure for success, then I damn well should have been team
>captain.

I think you are wrong here Roger.

To use your analogy

1) Life's a bitch!

2) How do you know the others didn't try harder, work longer and
etc etc? Besides which something like this "talent" comes into
it as well.

If you are saying results is all that counts then you are
demeaning an awful lot of peoples hard work. For example, Kevin
Randles' investigation of the Roswell incident(s), Stanton
Friedman's uncovering of the FOIA documents, Chris Rutkowski's
annual Canadian UFO Reports to name but a few. No I'm sorry your
"results only" argument doesn't hold water in my opinion.

>Sorry, Michael, but unless all your much bally-hoo'd hard work
>(or anyone else's, for that matter) has uncovered something
>unique or different regarding UFOs that we don't already know,
>then you are only a guy with an opinion, just like Roger, no
>matter how hard you had to work to form that opinion.

And in the land of free speech is not everyone entitled to their
own opinion?

>>From what I've read of your own posts, your much touted neutral
>"wait and see" position COULD be considered little more than a
>dodge of dealing with difficult issues. And your habit of
>limiting yourself to only one response MIGHT seem far too
>convenient an escape route for someone truly interested in
>exchanging ideas or exploring the results of someone else's
>research. Or is your own research the only "real" research you
>recognize? Ironic, don't you think, that someone so committed to
>research, i.e. learning new information, would be so prejudicial
>of another person's ideas simply because of a title after the
>name? How petty.

I think I answered this in the previous post.

>I know of no "facts" or "evidence" uncovered by anyone on this
>list, regardless of their "field work",

Then, my good Sir, you are sadly lacking. And I leave it to
others to point out to you the evidence that they have
uncovered, say regarding trace landing cases for example. Or how
about Betty Cash and her burns?

>that has added to our
>over all knowledge anymore than some of the "armchair" UFO
>enthusiasts that also participate. In fact, some of the
>"armchair" members have actually brought up some interesting
>things for discussion.

I agree, but its the hard work of others that brings these
discussions to results.

>So when Roger asks, "Who the hell are you
>to judge me?" he has a legitimate point and I think you owe him
>an apology.

That's for Mike to decide but I disagree.

>But then what do I know? I don't have the "field" experience
>that you do so I guess my opinion means nothing, also.

So do certain peoples opinion carry more weight than others
Roger?

If so why?


---
    In an infinite universe infinitely anything is possible.
                       Sean Jones
 Homepage--http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Zone/1745/index.htm





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 4

                              Re: '92 Sighting

From: Sharon Kardol <sharon@hotmix.com.au>
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 16:38:11 +0800
Fwd Date: Mon, 04 Jan 1999 12:21:29 -0500
Subject: Re: '92 Sighting


>Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1998 12:01:25 -0800
>From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: '92 Sighting

>>From: Sharon Kardol <sharon@hotmix.com.au>
>>To: <updates@globalserve.net>
>>Subject: Info on '92 Sighting
>>Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1998 11:45:10 +0800

>>I was hoping that someone might be able to help me with some
>>information concerning a sighting which occurred in 1992. All
>>the information I have follows -

><snip>

>I regret that my oply record from Endeavor Hills was on
>09Oct1989 and obviously unrelated.

>In the 1989 account, two observers saw a 20 foot ( 6 metre )
>object [ poorly described ] hovering near some power lines.
>Grass in the vicinity later died in some odd manner.

>For fine and necessary details on this particular event, one
>must consult Bill Chalker's book " The OZ Files", page 189.

>There is a second source: /r123 p 231.   For ten centavos,
>I will go look that up too, but please allow time.

>If you are short of time,  please let me know in advance.


Mr Hatch,

Thank you for the information. I don't believe this is the same
case, but it's interesting to know there was another sighting in
the same area. I will have to obtain a copy of Mr Chalker's book
for future reference (being a fellow Aussie it must be a good
read :) ).

Once again, thank you.

Sharon.





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 4

                     Conflicts In The Reed 'Alien' Case

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
Date: Mon, 04 Jan 1999 12:43:24 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 04 Jan 1999 12:43:24 -0500
Subject: Conflicts In The Reed 'Alien' Case

Date: Mon, 04 Jan 1999 03:36:45 -0500
From: Scott Hale <shale@columbus.rr.com>
To: updates@globalserve.net
Subject: Conflicts In The Reed 'Alien' Case


All,

I usually don't bother with cases I find to be hoaxes, but I
thought I'd throw this out there.

After I finished my first semester at American University in
Washington, D.C. I came home from break and decided to catch up
on relaxing and goofing off.

Needless to say I'm still on a college sleep schedule, which
means I get not sleep at all. So I'm up one night looking at all
of the different UFO folklore that's being passed around.

I came across the Reed alien photo story on artbell.com while
looking for the occasional interesting personality Art squeezes
in between the other guests.

I saved one of the photos and zoomed in on it using photoshop
and viola.

The clothing the alien is wearing is uniquely human in its
nature, in that it has a button on its shirt..

I decided to look for a transcript of an interview to see what
the clothing was described as. I found the interview at:

http://bbs.rowlandnet.com/cgi-bin/WebX?14@^3802374@.ee75a4e/2

The clothing was described:

DR: It was a black type of suit made of some type of material
that nothing that I had ever seen, almost a tight fitting body
wrap type of material. Almost like spandex.

WS: Was it a tailored suit or more like...

DR: It was tight fitting. All the way tight against its neck,
torso, legs, feet. All one. All one piece, as far as I could
see.

There is no mention of a button.

I don't know whether to be amused or disturbed by the fact that
thousands of people crowd around their radios nightly to hear
about a paper mach=E9 dummy wearing human clothing.

I made dinosaur masks using the same method as a kid and they
looked better than this. Included below is my edited copy of the
photograph from Bell's site. See for yourself.


Happy New Year!
Scott Hale














   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 4

                  UFO Reports Acquired From Cincinnati Area

From: Kenny Young <ufo@fuse.net>
Date: Mon, 04 Jan 1999 04:25:14 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 04 Jan 1999 13:14:29 -0500
Subject: UFO Reports Acquired From Cincinnati Area


UFO reports acquired from Cincinnati area
By Charles Stuart

A Mt. Healthy resident and his mother reported two separate
sightings of unusual aerial objects on consecutive nights. In
both instances the UFOs released or ejected a single small light
which hovered and then flew away under its own power

On Thursday, Dec. 31, 1998, while walking her dog in a
residential district of Mt. Healthy, Ohio (Hamilton County),
"Mrs. H." (name is withheld for privacy) reported seeing a large
stationary object with "very bright" steady white light in what
she said looked to be a circular pattern. As she watched, a
small white light detached itself and flew away. Weather
conditions were partly cloudy.

The next night (Friday, Jan. 1, 1999) after exiting I-275 onto
Hamilton Avenue, Mr. H. and his mother witnessed another unusual
object in the same area near their home. Mr. H. describes this
object as three steady bright white lights in a triangular
formation with another light in the center. It also appeared to
be stationary and about 500' in altitude. "It was larger than a
plane," Mr. H. assured. As they watched, the center light
detached itself once more and flew a short distance before both
objects disappeared behind some trees. A small plane with a
blinking red light had also been observed passing above the
objects before they were all lost to view. Mr. H. said that he
had the impression that the main object looked somewhat like a
B-1 bomber, however he was unable to explain the light that he
saw "drop off." The weather conditions at the time of the
sighting were cloudy, prior to a snowstorm.

Both sightings occurred shortly after sundown; the first (Dec.
31) at around 7:30 P.M. and the second (Jan. 1) at 5:45
P.M.(sundown was at 5:28 P.M.).

The area decribed is in a landing approach area to the Northern
Kentucky/Greater Cincinnati International Airport. The witnesses
have lived in this area for approximately 5 years and claim to
be familar with the appearance of normal air traffic.

A Hamilton County Sheriff patrol helicopter is headquarted at a
nearby police facility on Hamilton Avenue, but they inform that
they have seen this aircraft come and go many times and insist
that a police helicopter is not what they saw.

According to Mr. H., the UFO also drew the attention of other
motorists. He said that the people in the car ahead of them were
sticking their heads out of their windows to get a better view.

Additional note: The two witnesess are mildly interested in
ufology and have told of previous sightings, the most spectacuar
being in the mid- 70s
near Milford, Ohio.

Report filed:
January 4, 1999
Charles Stuart
--
UFO Research





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 4

                      Australian UFO Reports - 01-04-99

From: Diane Harrison <tkbnetw@fan.net.au>
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 21:27:52 +1000
Fwd Date: Mon, 04 Jan 1999 13:19:38 -0500
Subject: Australian UFO Reports - 01-04-99


The Keith Basterfield Network Australasia
tkbnetw@fan.net.au
*************************************************************
UFO Australian  Research Network Hot Line Number
                       1800 77 22 88 Free Call
*************************************************************


A New Ufologist Jason Cowland on line
Australian UFO Reporting Center ( AUFORC )

Sighting Reports

Location: Lindisfarne Tas
Date: 10th June 1998

An object was seen dropping to earth leaving a vapor trail over
MT Faulkner. The trail that was seen first descend from a cloud
the object fell out of it when the vapor trail stopped. The
witness described the object resembling a Mac Donald's type
logo; a large M shaped object. The witness was driving during
the entire time and mentioned that the sunset gave the object an
unusual appearance. The descending motion of the object was as
if it was attached to a parachute, however, he could not see a
parachute on the object.

Although an article appeared in the Hobart Mercury the next day
as "Evening UFO mystery", the witness (ex-RAAF) felt that it may
be a deflated weather balloon or something that dropped of an
aircraft.

Location: Benalla Victoria
Date: 19th June 1998
Time: 10.00pm

An orange light was sighted at 10.00pm when the witness went
outside to feed his dog which at first looked like an n
airplane. It looked as if the light was about 1-2klms away. It
was not flashing and the witness was surprised that no engine
noise could be heard. As the light moved in a straight line
across the sky the witness was still trying to listen for engine
noise, it stopped for 10-20 seconds then dropped straight down
out of sight.

I contacted the Benalla Police Station to see if they had
received any other reports, which they had not. I also contacted
the Victorian Aero Club who conducts glider flying from Benalla.
They informed me that no flying is done at night and none is
done on Fridays (Fridays night was when the sighting took
place).

Location: Orbost Victoria
Date: 21stth August 1998
Time: 08.55pm

Tow orange balls of light where seen traveling together from
west to east at 08.55pm. The witness became excited when one of
the objects dropped something that sparkled as it fell then
burnt out. The object that dropped the glowing substance then
vanished and the other remained in sight and kept moving from
west to east then slowly disappeared. The sighting lasted
approximately 5-10 minutes.

The witness was very excited by the whole encounter and
described her dogs going crazy and barking at the time of the
event. She had spoken to other individuals in the Orbost
community who had also seen the object at different times that
night.

Location: Meadow Heights Victoria
Date: 9th September 1998
Time: ?

A red Light reported as slowly moving around the sky. Described
as a bright red star ( MARS like ) darting erratically but
slowly in the night sky. Slowly drifted off in the direction of
Cranbourne. No sound heard by the witness who felt it could not
be a plane or helicopter

Location: Werribee Victoria
Date: 18th September 1998
Time: 09.30pm

Witness described a triangle set of light whole out fishing at
approximately 09.30pm in the Werribee inlet. He saw the lights
while on his boat, which appeared to be some distance away. They
drifted off very slowly and then all three lights separated and
went in their own directions. The witness also mentioned that
another individual was walking their dog on the bank at the time
and that they departed immediately after the light left. The
witness was sure that the other individual saw the lights but
could not confirm this

Location: Williamstown Victoria
Date: 28th September 1998
Time: 10.30pm

Call was received at 10.30pm on this night to report a fiery
object ball of light with what appeared to be light or fiery
piece falling front. It was observed for about 5 minutes moving
slowly across the sky. A report appeared the next day in the
Melbourne Herlad-Sun VUFORS also received a call. A news article
appeared in Hobart Mercury on 1st October 98 about the King
Island UFO described in the Herald-Sun.

Location: Dandenong North Victoria
Date: 4th October 1998
Time: 09.55pm

This sighting took place on the previous Sunday 27th September
1998 at 9.55pm. A family of three saw a bright object about 10
degrees above the horizon for about 3-4 minutes. The object was
traveling very fast and had red and white lights. They contacted
the Canberra Observatory but had no reply.

Location: Rye Victoria
Date: 10th October 1998
Time: 08 to 08.30pm

Witness explained that a small star like lights have been seen
three times over the past two weeks at the same time, between
8.00pm to 8.30pm. he described them as moving across the horizon
over the bay. Sometimes they would stop then start up again. Two
at once have been seen, traveling in different direction.

Location: Mordialloc Victoria
Date: 22nd October 1998
Time: ?

Witness is an amateur astronomer who described three orange
lights larger than star but with less magnitude. The lights had
no sound and maintained a regular formation for the 5-10 seconds
that she could see them. They were no longer visible when she
reached another window to follow the object. She knows of
meteorites and other astronomical phenomena. She also mentioned
that the lights where lower than local aircraft in and out of
Moorabbin Airport.

Location: Noo Jee Victoria
Date: 7th November 1998
Time: 10.15pm

Excited witness called at 10.15pm to describe an orange glowing
light that was traveling across the sky in a strange manner. The
bright light would slowly move across the sky then stop, drop
and start up again. It seems to be heading East and the witness
where watching it as they were reporting it. It then disappeared
from sight.


Regards Diane Harrison





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 4

                 Shape Shifting UFO Photographed By Reporter

From: Kenny Young <ufo@fuse.net>
Date: Mon, 04 Jan 1999 10:41:49 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 04 Jan 1999 14:03:16 -0500
Subject: Shape Shifting UFO Photographed By Reporter


Ft. Worth Star-Telegram photographer M.L. Gray has taken several
photographs of what he thought to be a shape-changing UFO on
Nov. 30, 1998 near Keller, Texas.

The details and photographs can be reviewed at:

http://www.virtualtexan.com/comm/virtual/fun/ufo/

--
UFO Research





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 4

               Re: Military Ability to Detect & Identify UFOs

From: Farley Scott <SCOTTF@HughesLuce.com>
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 10:29:48 -0600
Fwd Date: Mon, 04 Jan 1999 14:27:05 -0500
Subject: Re: Military Ability to Detect & Identify UFOs


>Date: Sat, 02 Jan 1999 18:39:33 -0600
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Michael Christol <mchristo@mindspring.com>
>Subject: Re: Military Ability to Detect & Identify UFOs


>>From: Farley Scott <SCOTTF@HughesLuce.com>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>Subject: Re: Military Ability to Detect & Identify UFOs
>>Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1998 14:07:26 -0600

>>Others have already pointed out his bogus information such as
>>where he states that the moon does not rotate about its own
>>axis. This guy is supposed to be knowledgeable in celestial
>>mechanics?

<snip>

>I seem to have missed something here...I can't believe that
>people think the moon rotates through a cycle ever so many
>hours...If it did, then we would see its other faces...

>Please help me to understand this....

>REgard, Mike


Hi Mike,

It is my understanding from college astronomy (24 years ago)
that the moon's period of rotation about its own axis is very
close to the same period as it's orbit about the earth.

Here is a fact sheet on the moon:

http://delphi.gsfc.nasa.gov/planetary/factsheet/moonfact.html

And from Microsoft Encarta 98 (sorry, it's the only general
reference I had):


"It completes one revolution in an elliptical orbit about the
earth in 27 days 7 hours 43 minutes 11.5 seconds with reference
to the stars. For the moon to go from one phase to the next
similar phase, or one lunar month, requires 29 days 12 hours 44
minutes 2.8 seconds. The moon rotates once on its axis in about
the same period of time that elapses for its sidereal period of
revolution, accounting for the fact that virtually the same
portion of the moon is always turned toward the earth."

"Moon," Microsoft(R) Encarta(R) 98 Encyclopedia.
(c) 1993-1997 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.


Regards,
Farley Scott







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 4

                       Re: C. B. Moore's '49 Sighting

From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 13:12:50 EST
Fwd Date: Mon, 04 Jan 1999 15:22:16 -0500
Subject: Re: C. B. Moore's '49 Sighting


>From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@aol.com>
>Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1999 22:10:29 EST
>?Fwd Date: Mon, 04 Jan 1999 11:47:33 -0500
>Subject: Re: C. B. Moore's '49 Sighting

>Most extraordinary, however, was the enormous range and duration
>of the fireballs. Chance placed the minimum flight path at 2400
>miles, requiring 4 to 5 minutes for each object to cover its
>entire observed track. In 1968, John O'Keefe in the R.A.S.C.
>Journal reported more historical data showing that the event
>actually extended some 6000 miles, from Brazil to western
>Canada. At the upper end of estimated speed of 10 miles/second
>or 36,000 mph, this required 10 minutes of transit time. At the
>lower end of the speed spectrum of 5 miles/second, which also
>seemed to best-fit the seeming constant-altitude circular
>trajectory of the fireball train (according to British meteor
>expert M. Davidson), a transit time of 20 miles would be needed.

Obviously "a transit time of 20 miles" should instead read "a
transit time of 20 minutes."  Sorry for the error.

David Rudiak





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 4

                      Re: Sherman J. Larsen and Ufology

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
Date: Mon, 04 Jan 99 13:10:40 PST
Fwd Date: Mon, 04 Jan 1999 15:25:47 -0500
Subject: Re: Sherman J. Larsen and Ufology


>Date: Sun, 03 Jan 1999 23:12:29 -0800
>From: Jan Aldrich <jan@cyberzone.net>
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Re: Sherman J. Larsen and Ufology

>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
>>Date: Sat, 02 Jan 99 14:25:25 PST
>>Fwd Date: Sun, 03 Jan 1999 12:38:31 -0500
>>Subject: Re: Sherman J. Larsen and Ufology

>>>Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1998 00:14:16 -0500
>>>From: Gary Alevy <galevy@pipeline.com>
>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>>Subject: Re: Sherman J. Larsen and Ufology

>>>>From: "Stan Friedman" <fsphys@brunnet.net>
>>>>To: "UFO UpDates - Toronto" <updates@globalserve.net>
>>>>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Sherman J. Larsen and Ufology
>>>>Date: Sat, 26 Dec 1998 22:48:08 -0400

><snip>

>Greetings List,


>In the last few weeks Jerry Clark has argued about almost
>everything,

Ah, Jan, that's just the kind of guy I am. Of course, if there
weren't so much excess out there, so much common wisdom which,
when examined, turns out to be simple silliness or sweeping
self-righteousness, I could retire from the fray and rest on my
laurels, such as they are. Reading what passes through the
internet on a daily basis, even from some ufologists who one
would have thought knew better, presents a steady challenge even
to one of my basically optimistic instincts. It's hard to avoid
the conclusion that many ufologists seem less interested in
studying the UFO phenomenon than in undermining ufology's very
legitimacy.

As one who continues to think that what we're doing -- when, in
any event, we're doing it as it ought to be done -- is
important, I intend to keep speaking up. I hope that the rest of
you will, too. That includes you, Jan.

Jerry Clark







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 4

                           Re: Cough, Korf, Ahem!

From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
Date: Mon, 04 Jan 1999 13:33:58 +0000
Fwd Date: Mon, 04 Jan 1999 15:28:15 -0500
Subject: Re: Cough, Korf, Ahem!


>From: Sean Jones <tedric@tedric.demon.co.uk>
>Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 07:21:21 +0000
>Fwd Date: Mon, 04 Jan 1999 12:17:31 -0500
>Subject: Re: Cough, Korf, Ahem!

>>From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
>>Date: Sun, 03 Jan 1999 14:02:14 +0000
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>Subject: Cough, Korf, Ahem!

Previously, I had offered this in response to Sean's opinion
that all that mattered in ufology was hard work:

>>The only thing that matters is results.

>>When I was a kid, I wanted to play baseball. I sucked at it.
>>Therefore, I had to try twice as hard to make the team and put
>>out a great deal more effort than other kids better than me.
>>Needless to say I did not make the team. But, if "hard work" was
>>the measure for success, then I damn well should have been team
>>captain.

Sean's reply:

>I think you are wrong here Roger.

>To use your analogy

>1) Life's a bitch!

>2) How do you know the others didn't try harder, work longer and
>etc etc? Besides which something like this "talent" comes into
>it as well.

Actually, Sean, I believe I made that very point. I said that I
sucked at it and that the other kids were better than me.
Obviously, despite my efforts, my end results didn't measure up.
I don't see the difference in our two views.

>If you are saying results is all that counts then you are
>demeaning an awful lot of peoples hard work. For example, Kevin
>Randles' investigation of the Roswell incident(s), Stanton
>Friedman's uncovering of the FOIA documents, Chris Rutkowski's
>annual Canadian UFO Reports to name but a few. No I'm sorry
>your "results only" argument doesn't hold water in my opinion.

Are you saying that these people's hard work hasn't produced any
results, Sean? My, how flattering. Do me a favor; in the future
if someone is dissing me, don't step up to my defense, okay?

Just kidding. I'm sure you didn't mean it the way you wrote it.

I have great respect for all these people. My point is that
"field work" is equal to "armchair work" if the results are the
same: Only an opinion. But your intended point is well taken.
Perhaps your comment that "only hard work matters" should be
combined with my comment "only results matter" to read: "Hard
work only matters if it produces usable results".

I can't think of anything more fair than that.

Take care,






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 4

                              Hynek and Michel

From: Jan Aldrich <jan@cyberzone.net
Date: Mon, 04 Jan 1999 13:15:32 -0800
Fwd Date: Mon, 04 Jan 1999 15:37:07 -0500
Subject: Hynek and Michel


Greetings List

I had asked a question based on faulty memory. Did Hynek and
Aime Michel ever met?

They did. Hynek in a 38 page copy of a talk given to the
Hypervelocity Impact Conference Banquet at Engin Air Force Base,
April 27, 1960, entitled 'UFO's 1960' had the following to say
about Michel:


"I would now like to describe for you some French flying
saucers. It appears that for about two months in France, form
the middle of August to the middle of October, 1954, France was
peppered with a barrage of UFO reports. Like mushrooms they
sprouted all over France and likewise some in Italy and some in
Germany. The reports. of these, however, came in largely through
the medium of French provincial newspapers. And it was only
through the work of Aime Michel, an enthusiastic investigator in
France, that these reports were collated, plotted, and compared.
The compilation of these reports appears in a book by Michel,
'Flying Saucers and the Straight-Line Mystery'.

The 'Straight-Line Mystery' in the title refers to the fact that
when Michel plotted the reports for any one day on a very
large-scale map, the reports had a devastating way of forming
straight-line patterns on the map, most difficult to explain by
chance.

I would not, of course, accept anything I read in a book without
knowing something of the author. It chanced that I happened to
be in Paris on other business and took two days off on my own to
seek out Michel and talk with him. He lives with his wife and
small son in a small modest Paris suburb apartment. He is a
radio engineer and, what I was particularly anxious to find out
of calm rational deportment, quite unlike the typical enthusiast
or crackpot with whom it has been my lot to come in contact from
time to time. I went over with Michel many of his stacks of
newspaper clippings, which he had purchased at his own expense,
and his maps, and I, at least, am convinced that the *reports*
are real; that is, that the reports do exist as such in various
French newspapers on those dates. I firmly believe that hoax and
a deliberate attempt to concoct a cock and bull story must be
ruled out. It would save us much bother and worry if we could
take this way out, namely to say that Michel manufactured the
reports out of thin air and wrote the book just to make money.
From the returns he has had, I might say in passing that his
labors smut have been done at coolie wages.

In any event I feel reasonably certain that some stimulus
existed in France--whether political, scientific,
extraterrestrial, meteorological, or psychological--that in the
space of two months generated several hundreds of reports which
show a definite thread of pattern...."

---

Interestingly this speech was given during a lull in UFO
sightings and interest. Hynek goes over a number of reports,
including reports, that he helped knock down for the USAF
including the Levelland sightings. Hynek makes a pretty good
pitch for serious consideration of the reports long before
either he or McDonald go public.

Hynek's visit with Michel probably took place in 1958 or
1959 after the Michel's book had been translated into
English by CSI-NY. I think the meeting was more than
casual, and was probably set up by CSI-NY. Hynek had been
corresponding and meeting with them since 1955.

--
Jan Aldrich
Project 1947
http://www.iufog.org/project1947/
P. O. Box 391, Canterbury, CT 06331, USA





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 4

                               Quest Magazine

From: Philip Mantle <el51@dial.pipex.com>
Date: Tue, 05 Jan 1999 02:26:17 +0000
Fwd Date: Mon, 04 Jan 1999 18:20:00 -0500
Subject: Quest Magazine


Dear Colleagues,

I have recently been appointed as Research and Commissioning
Editor for QUEST Magazine (no connection to Quest International,
publishers of UFO Magazine in the UK) which is published by TOP
EVENTS & PUBLICATIONS LTD in the UK.

QUEST Magazine covers a broad range of topics and treats them in
a serious manner. For example, in an up-coming issue we will be
address topics such as:

Astrology, Astronomy, Ancient Technology, UFO's, Phenomena, Lost
Cities, Mysteries Under The Sea, Remote Viewing, SHC, SETI,
Ancient Cultures (Egypt, Mexico, China etc) and a whole lot
more.

Quest Magazine has been around for quite a while now but l999
will see it's 're-launch' with many new people, including
myself, in place.

I would therefore like to respectfully ask you to seriously
consider contributing to QUEST Magazine. We can pay for
contributions as well as photographs and illustrations.

If you have an idea for a possible contribution you can contact
me at the
following:

Philip Mantle,
1 Woodhall Drive, Batley, West Yorkshire, England, WF17 7SW.
Tele/Fax: 01924 444049.
E-mail: el51@dial.pipex.com

QUEST Magazine aims to be the best in its field and I'm sure
with contributions from researchers in these many and varied
fields it has every chance of doing so.

Please feel free to forward this message onto any of your
colleagues who you think might be interested in contributing to
QUEST Magazine.

Yours Sincerely,

Philip Mantle.
Research & Commissioning Editor.
QUEST Magazine.

4 January, l999.





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 4

               Re: Jerry Black's Challenge To Whitley Strieber

From: John <jvif@spacelab.net>
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 14:27:37 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 04 Jan 1999 18:25:29 -0500
Subject: Re: Jerry Black's Challenge To Whitley Strieber

>Date: Sat, 02 Jan 1999 03:03:12 -0600
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>From: Glenn Joyner <infohead@airmail.net>
>Subject: Jerry Black's Challenge To Whitley Strieber

>Hello Errol, and List members:

>As you know, I do transcription work for Jerry Black. Here's the
>latest "open letter" from Jerry. Please note that his site has
>moved to:

>http://members.xoom.com/blackshole

>Thanks,

>Glenn

>---------------------------------------------------------------

>An Extensive Review of Whitley Strieber and His Claims of
>Encounters With the Visitors

>by Jerry Black

>January 1999

Hi All,

Isn't this the same blowhard who wrote several 25 page+ long
internet rants about the Gulfbreeze case? It appears that after
having gotten nowhere with Bruce Macabee and others relating to
that case, that Mr Black now turns his jaundiced eye towards
Whitley Strieber. 'Submit to a polygraph test or I'll splatter
your refusal all over the web' says he to Whitley. This guy
Black has a pair of cohones that an Indian elephant would envy.
Thank Ghod he's not a UN diplomat or we'd really be in trouble!
:-D

Porposal: Let's follow the example of the Democrats and simply
throw money at the problem!

If we all chip in .50 cents, we will be able to afford a small
Sears refractor telescope, a rubiks cube, and maybe even one of
those sexy rubber blow up friends for Mr. Black, (who is in
_desperate need_ of a time consuming hobby.) I am confident that
if the objects we provide him with are 'shiny' enough, it might
preoccupy him and spare _us_ from yet another round of his
pointless nit picking rantings. I don't know about you, but .50
cents seems a small price to pay for the peace of mind we would
all gain in return.

Send all contributions to:

The Jerry Black Hobby Fund (or JEBHOFU)
121 Sparemethegrief Blvd.
Beendere Dondat, California, 90734

Remember, the mind you save may be your own. So please, dig
deep, and give till it hurts. It's for a just cause.

Personal note:

You should take some comfort in the knowledge that you are not
alone, and that you are not crazy. _Others_ experience the same
urge to commit Hari-Kari with a dull butter knife _everytime_
they find a 25 page long post from Jerry Black in their mailbox.
There is no need for you to feel isolated or unique. If need be,
I will start a support group for those who need help dealing
with this unsettling and life disrupting phenomenon.

Let's try the toys first. Failing that, we'll start up the
support group. As Ghod is my witness, we will _one way or
another_ survive this latest attack on our sensibilities.

'Blackhole' - what an appropriate name for Mr Blacks' website.
It's what I feel I've been sucked into everytime I read one of
his posts!   :-D

John Velez (Speaking strictly for myself)



________________________________________________
                                jvif@spacelab.net
INTRUDERS FOUNDATION/ABDUCTION INFORMATION CENTER
                            http://www.if-aic.com
"Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind."





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 4

               Re: Shape Shifting UFO Photographed By Reporter

From: James Bond Johnson <JBONJO@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 14:41:47 EST
Fwd Date: Mon, 04 Jan 1999 18:36:57 -0500
Subject: Re: Shape Shifting UFO Photographed By Reporter


>Date: Mon, 04 Jan 1999 10:41:49 -0500 >From: Kenny Young
<ufo@fuse.net> >To: updates@globalserve.net >Subject: Shape
Shifting UFO Photographed By Reporter


>Ft. Worth Star-Telegram photographer M.L. Gray has taken
>several photographs of what he thought to be a shape-changing
>UFO on Nov. 30, 1998 near Keller, Texas.

>The details and photographs can be reviewed at:

>http://www.virtualtexan.com/comm/virtual/fun/ufo/


Yes and I have challenged M. L. Gray on his photos! I long
ago (51 1/2 years to be exact!) established claim as the
official Star-Telegram UFO photographer!






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 4

             Re: 33 Years Ago Today: The Kecksburg, PA UFO Crash

From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 14:44:12 EST
Fwd Date: Mon, 04 Jan 1999 18:46:54 -0500
Subject: Re: 33 Years Ago Today: The Kecksburg, PA UFO Crash


>From: Stan Gordon <paufo@westol.com>
>Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1998 12:22:57 -0500
>Fwd Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 01:20:30 -0500
>Subject: 33 Years Ago Today: The Kecksburg, PA UFO Crash

<snip>

>It was 33 years ago today that an event occurred about 40 miles
>from Pittsburgh in a rural area of western Pennsylvania, that
>even now remains controversial for some, and mysterious to
>others. At the time many people saw a brilliant object moving
>across the sky.

The fireball was seen by thousands of people in ten states and
Ontario. In a review of published 1965 accounts I found reports
that it had crashed, landed or dropped fragments in at least 17
places in six states and the province. Claims like this are
typical for fireballs caused by meteors or returning space
debris, particularly near the outer edges of the observing area
where the object is seen near the horizon. Searches were
conducted in at least five places, but no proven debris of the
fireball was ever found.

More is known about this fireball than most other objects of its
kind because, by good fortune, within seconds two widely spaced
Michigan photographers independently took pictures of the cloud
train it had left in the sky.

One of these color photos was published on the cover of the
January 16, 1966, Detroit News Sunday Supplement and another in
the February 1966 issue of Sky & Telescope magazine.

A copy of the later article and picture is part of the Project
Blue Book incident file in the National Archives, as well as
correspondence with the photographer.

Stan Gordon reported (MUFON UFO Journal, October 1989) that he
has been in possession of this file since 1985, yet curiously
has never mentioned the picture.

Michigan State University astronomers Von Del Chamberlain and
David J. Krause used the pictures, more than 100 eyewitness
reports and a seismometer recording of the sonic boom made at
the University of Michigan's Geophysics Laboratory at Ypsilanti
to determine the object's path in the atmosphere. They estimated
its speed at about 14.5 kilometers per second. This is well
within the speed of meteors entering the Earth's atmosphere and
is about twice as fast as returning man-made objects in low
orbits.

Using the pictures and seismic recording for triangulation, they
found that the object fell steeply over southwestern Ontario as
it moved toward the northeast (not toward Pennsylvania). It fell
too steeply to be reentering low orbit debris, such as the
Soviet Cosmos 96, which is often mentioned in connection with
the incident. This failed Venus probe was in a nearly circular
orbit. This and the fact than the satellite reentered some
thirteen hours before the Kecksburg incident means that Cosmos
96 is out as an explanation. This conclusion was also reached in
the 1967 Sky & Telescope article, a fact which has never been
revealed by Gordon or his associates, who have promoted their
exciting Cosmos 96 connection for thirteen years.

The Michigan astronomers found that a possible orbit took the
object out to between Mars and Jupiter, in the asteroid belt,
where many bright meteors originate. An article was submitted
and published in the Royal Astronomical Society of Canada
Journal (Vol. 61, no.4, 1967). Another article by Chamberlain
was published in Meteorites of Michigan, Bulletin 5, Geological
Survey of Michigan, 1968.

On April 21, 1992, I sent a copy of the Chamberlain and Krause
article to Stan Gordon and asked for his comments. Six and a
half years have passed but he has never responded. Gordon has
never discussed this hard data and research, nor has he even
publicly revealed its existence or the discussed the
implications of the Michigan photographs in his many articles,
press releases, interviews or in the video he is now selling
promoting this incident as a mysterious crash and recovery.

<snip>

>The news media focused on a young boy, who while playing outside,
>said he saw an object fall from the sky into some nearby woods.

I plotted the fireball's train on a topographic map (Lake Erie,
NK-17, United States Geologic Survey, 1974) and compared it to
the direction in which this first Acme, Pa., witness and his
mother were looking; the direction they went to search in a
neighboring field, the cloud direction that they pointed out
later to the State Police, and the direction of the subsequent
search by the police. I then plotted these witness directions of
sight on a local topographic map (Mammoth Quadrangle, Pa, 7.5
Minute Series, USGS, 1967, photorevised 1979). I found that
these first key Acme, Pa., witnesses were looking directly
toward the Ontario fireball cloud, hanging low in the western
sky.

>Coincidentally, author Frank Edwards, who had written some
>popular books on UFO's, was a guest on a KDKA radio talk show in
>Pittsburgh that evening, hosted by the late Mike Levine.

Frank Edwards' role in this saucer crash myth is certainly no
coincidence. Gordon, though, has apparently just tossed in this
non-sequiter to trick readers into believing that he has
conducted a serious investigation of the incident, and that his
conclusions are logically based upon what he found. It is
interesting that Gordon never reveals the significance of
Edwards' involvement, which was first noted by me in a 1990
report of my investigation into the Kecksburg claims.

Edwards recounted a few months later in Behind The Flying
Saucers (1966) that he and Levin had taken many calls about the
fireball that night and that he had concluded that the object
had probably been a meteor.  However, in this best seller (it
was the first saucer book to sell a million copies) Edwards said
that he thought there might be more to the story, that the
Government might be hiding something. He based this largely on
an article by researcher Ivan Sanderson written for the North
American Newspaper Alliance which was carried widely and
reprinted in FATE.

Sanderson's piece (my thanks to Mark Rodeghier, who found an
original carbon copy in the old NICAP files at CUFOS) was dated
three days after the event, and was based only upon wire service
stories and calls to police information desks. Apparently he
spoke to no eyewitnesses. He grossly miscalculated,
underestimating by a factor of 60, what he thought was the speed
of the object, and mixing together time estimates given by
witnesses in different places. Chamberlain and Krause obtained
their speed estimates from the estimates of the photographers as
to how long the fireball was visible and compared this to the
known triangulated length of the cloud.

Sanderson then assumed, after selective use of reports from some
locations but not others, that because the widely visible
fireball was seen someplace, that it must have been there.
Because of this error, he concluded that it had exhibited a
change of motion. Then he misplotted the fireball's direction of
flight during this supposed maneuver on a hand-drawn map he used
with his article. This erroneous change of direction, quoted for
years by Gordon who seems never checked the directions on a real
map, would have the object passing no closer than 16 miles to
the south of Kecksburg.

Crash proponents, desperate to blend conflicting stories into one
saleable tale, have since embraced any new witnesses who say that
the object maneuvered all around town before coming down.

Can Stan Gordon or other proponents of a reentry offer one single
reputable citation to show that the Soviet Union, the U.S., or any
other nation of Earth for that matter, possessed such a maneuverable
space vehicle in 1965?

Incidentally, both Edwards and Sanderson evidently had second
thoughts about the incident, since neither mentioned it in subsequent
books in which they listed what they said were UFO debris which
had reached the Earth.

Also, no prominent ufologists of the period included the
December 9, 1965, event among lists of important incidents they
provided to a Congressional Committee. This included Allen
Hynek, who was sent a copy of a picture and report by one of the
Michigan photographers. It is possible that the Air Force's
meteor explanation may have been his. The major civilian groups
at the time also exhibited little interest. The fireball was
listed as a bolide (exploding meteor) in NICAP files (there was
an active Pittsburgh chapter) and Coral Lorenzen never mentioned
it in a chapter entitled, 1965 - the Big Year, in a later book.

>During my years of investigation into the matter, other witnesses
>who saw the object go down into the woods that day have been
>located.

Gordon should have said "other claimed witnesses". They began
surfacing decades later each time the incident was publicized by
UFO researchers. For example, the first man to tell a recovery
story said that he had been the 1965 Kecksburg fire chief and
had witnessed the armed military recovery operation. He surfaced
in 1979 and told this story for ten years. He was not the 1965
fire chief and wasn't even present until most of the excitement
was over. The day after filming was completed for the dramatic,
1990 Unsolved Mysteries segment, Gordon, who assisted with the
program, called the real 1965 Kecksburg fire chief, Edward
Myers, and admitted that even though he had been investigating
Kecksburg for 25 years, they had gotten the wrong fire chief.
Gordon has claimed that this central figure's long interview had
to be cut from the program because of time, not because the man
admitted to UM producers that he had made up his story and that
he wasn't even there when the events portrayed on the program
allegedly happened.

The next key figure in the development of the crash myth was a
man who came out of the crowd at a 1987 UFO Week mall display
where Gordon and his associates were talking about the 1965
incident and showing off old newspaper clippings. This character
was the first to claim to have seen an acorn-shaped, object,
itself, in the woods with its Egyptian-style hieroglyphics. This
man's tale of an armed military occupation of spots in the area
and machinegun-mounted jeeps escorting a mysterious convoy
carrying an object not of this world is right out of crash
folklore going back to Frank Scully's 1950 blockbuster, Behind
The Flying Saucers. Not one of the many reporters from TV, radio
and newspapers present in 1965 reported such frightening
details.

The comical thing about all of this is that until recently the
only specific location ever published for the crash was given in
a 1965 newspaper article often cited by crash promoters. But it
had events in the wrong gully, =BD mile away from the actual
search on a different farm 1-mile from Kecksburg. This erroneous
location was given by this new witness and others who followed,
and Gordon and his friends were bamboozled into concluding that
since this was also where they thought things had occurred, this
new witness had confirmed their own research. Local residents
and neighbors I've spoken to just howl with laughter at this,
which they say is how they can tell if so-called witnesses were
actually participants in the events of 1965.

I have collected and examined the accounts of more than 200
claimed Pennsylvania eyewitnesses to the Dec. 9, 1965, events.
All but a tiny handful, and _all original _ published and
broadcast 1965 accounts, can be explained by the Ontario meteor,
three unsuccessful searches for its debris, and by an admitted
prank by teenagers who ran through the woods flashing a camera
strobe, causing reports of blue lights (I have a long signed
statement by a participant).

<snip>

>Hundreds of spectators looked on from a narrow country road which
>circled around the area, unaware that the object appears to have
>fallen on the opposite side of the woods.

This shows the desperation of the crash promoters. The event
happened in December. The foliage was off the trees. By the time
people arrived it was dark. Anyone who has ever been to
Kecksburg or who has closely studied a topographic map of the
area, knows that crowds looking down from the spectacular
"overlook" portion of the surrounding road (actually named
"Meteor Road", by the way - Duh?) could have certainly seen any
lighted recovery activity in or on the other side of the woods.

Many of the fantastic details come from members of one family
who say their house was used as a headquarters. Yet in 1965 a
family member, now dead, was quoted by a newspaper reporter as
saying that he had been outside and saw and heard nothing. I
have statements from witnesses who were _ on the opposite side
of the woods _ throughout the night and who say that nothing was
recovered. The farmer closest to the "crash site" has a good
view of the woods and crash site. He was home all night and says
that he saw no landing or recovery operation. Yet Gordon expects
us to believe that =BD mile away from a large-scale, secret, armed
military occupation were residents, property owners, reporters,
police and crowds of people who somehow missed it all. This is
pure fantasy.

>As time passed that evening, many people left disappointed that
>they couldn't see the object.

This is one fact upon which Stan Gordon and I are in complete
agreement.

>A few curious folks tried to sneak down into the woods, and later
>told me that they were turned back by the military.

The only proven military involvement were three Air Force men
sent from a Pittsburgh radar site of the 662nd Radar Squadron,
the nearest Air Force installation. This would have been in
conformity with a routine UFO report investigation from the
nearest Air Force base, as called for by Air Force Regulation
200-17.

My investigation shows that at several places the road and
driveways were closed by fire policemen from the Mt. Pleasant
Unity Fire Company, on orders of the State Police fire marshal
and township Civil Defense coordinator, in order to prevent
roads from being blocked. After all, the initial reports were of
an airplane crash or something on fire. Can Gordon cite any
reported airplane crash sites where the public has been left to
wander around?

Unsubstantiated reports that the Army _ was _ on the way seem to
have been because the radar base was located on the Oakdale Army
Engineers facility adjacent to the Pittsburgh airport.

The highly imaginative version of events featured on the
Unsolved Mysteries segment showing troops armed with automatic
weapons, bayoneted rifles, gas masks and riot gear is pure
fantasy. It is inconceivable that none of the many reporters
from TV, radio and papers present in 1965 would not have
reported frightening details such as this. And, incidentally,
none of the former reporters interviewed on Gordon's vidoe made
these claims. It is also significant that these details seem to
be reported principally by the same small group of people who
have reported seeing the object, itself, or the mysterious
recovery and retrieval

>Late that night, others say they observed a military flatbed
>tractor-trailer truck, carrying a large tarpaulin covered object,
>leaving the area at a high rate of speed.

<snip>

Why is it that a former newsman reports in Gordon's own video
that he only saw a truck with something covered on the back the
size of a couple of suitcases, but nothing else? Gordon simply
ignores this conflicting eyewitness account which supports the
official version.

<snip>

>Officially, no object was found in the woods by searchers. It was
>suggested that the most likely explanation was that the brilliant
>object in the sky was a meteor.

Gordon does not reveal to the members of this list anything
about the photographic triangulation of the Ontario meteor, the
publication of this hard evidence in a peer-reviewed scientific
journal three decades ago, or the fact that he has been in
possession of a photograph of the meteor for nearly 15 years.
Instead, he prefers to wallow in unsupported eyewitness
testimony.

<snip>

>After years of searching for government documents relating to this
>event, the only official record located was in the Air Force Project
>Blue Book files.

<snip>

>While the report shows a lot of interest from various agencies
>concerning the aerial object, the report also indicates that the
>search found nothing.

<snip>

>I have also talked with two former miltary men who are unknown to
>each other, that [sic] told me that during different years, and at
>different installations, they saw the recovery report on the
>Kecksburg object, and both said the report indicated that the object
>was extraterrestrial.

The Sky & Telescope article included in the Blue Book file
concluded that the object was _extraterrestrial_ and not
reentering space debris. The editors of this well-known
astronomy magazine clearly meant that the fireball was meteoric,
and not man-made, not that is was at ET craft. This document may
explain these claims, although I believe these two sources, one
of whom is Clifford E. Stone, are being deliberately
disingenuous about the use of this word to further the notion
that the incident involved a UFO.

<snip>

>One man details his claim of seeing a partially covered body inside
>a building at Wright-Patterson, at the same time the Kecksburg
>object was being examined.

This claim first surfaced around 1989, about the same time that
the claims of bodies surfaced around the Roswell event. This
witness made no mention of this in earlier taped interviews with
the late Leonard Stringfield or other investigators, including
Gordon. There is no reason to take this anonymous claimant at
face value. Among other things which make his story fishy are
that his cousin, whom he claimed was also present, at first said
he didn't remember the incident, then changed his mind several
months later; the claimed loss of all records of their visit to
Wright-Patterson which the family business burned, and his claim
that a truck load of bricks were unloaded by hand, allowing him
the day to roam freely around the base. If you go to any
brickyard to investigate this detail, you will find that
truckloads of bricks are handled by cranes and pallets. Duh?

<snip>

>The Kecksburg mystery remains. Was the object a man-made
>space device or did we receive a visitor from outside of our world?

<snip>

>It's time that the truth is revealed, regardless of what the source of
>the object was. It's been 33 years, it's time to break the silence.

It is time for Stan Gordon wo break the silence, and acknowledge
the existence of the Michigan photographs, the triangulation and
the articles appearing in scientific journals more than 30 years
ago. Since he has not, we can therefore conclude that it is Mr.
Gordon and other proponents of a crash mystery, not the
Government, Pennsylvania State Police, astronomers or local
doubters who are engaged in a deliberate, continuing cover-up of
photographs and documents proving the true nature of the
December 9, 1965, meteor.

<snip>

>Those who would like information on how to obtain the Kecksburg
>video can see ordering information

<snip>

Followers of this list often see the word _disinformation_ used.
When this happens, many folks, I think, assume that it must mean
that there is some official policy. But efforts to promote and
disseminate the Kecksburg tale at this late date are often
examples of another kind of disinformation, that is the
deliberate dissemination of false or misleading information for
the express purpose of making money or for personal
aggrandizement.






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 4

                  Robert A.M. Stephens Exposed as a Fraud?

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
Date: Mon, 04 Jan 1999 23:49:34 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 04 Jan 1999 23:49:34 -0500
Subject: Robert A.M. Stephens Exposed as a Fraud?





Source: http://www.borderlands.com/robertfraud.htm


Robert A.M. Stephens Exposed as a Fraud

I have recently done a fairly thorough investigation into the
claims made by Robert A.M. Stephens. Borderland Sciences'
association with Mr. Stephens began after he emailed me about
information I had posted to my website concerning the December
7th Landing. Some of the information Mr. Stephens was presenting
seemed very interesting (although unverifiable) and I asked him
if he would like us to put up a webpage for him.

After the December 30th, 1998 guest appearance by Mr. Stephens
on the Art Bell show, many (including myself) started to
question Mr. Stephens credibility.

The following is a report of my investigation on Mr. Robert A.M.
Stephens.



Initially, I checked out Robert A.M. Stephens (after his first
email to me) by doing a typical search on the internet for his
name. I came up with the following references:

http://www.nasa.gov/hqpao/library.html/arts/samples.html

http://digester.et.tudelft.nl/IMp66-15.html

http://digester.et.tudelft.nl/IM66-15.html

http://www.d21.k12.il.us/~lists/fb1744.html

http://mirror.apple.com/mirrors/00_links.for.anarchie.dir/Info-M
ac.Archive/per/im/infomacv15/infomacv15-051-100/infomacv15-066.txt

I have to admit that my investigation was not very thorough. Mr.
Stephens gave me a phone number to a "Larry Mauk", his contact
at KSC =97 which turned out to be a fax machine. I sent a fax
asking for confirmation of Mr. Stephens, but received no reply.

After the Art Bell show appearance, I began to do a more
thorough investigation into his background. I emailed some of
the contacts he said he had at NASA. One of them, declared a
"buddy" by Mr. Stephens, wrote back saying, "I have never met or
talked to Robert Stephens to my knowledge, and I have no idea if
he is a Space Shuttle contractor as stated in his e-mail." He
then went on to say, "I was simply responding to his e-mail in
the spirit of public mail to NASA, and am a bit chagrined that
he has termed me his "buddy" and that he posted my e-mail to him
to the Web without asking me if he could do so." This NASA
spokesperson asked that I do not forward or post his mail
without permission =97 I am awaiting his permission.

I then went after the SEAL Team-3 claim. There are many sites on
the internet hosted by former Navy SEALs which enjoy exposing
those who make such false claims. Here is a list:

Fake SEALs and Phoney Frogs
Phonies and Scumbags
Fake SEALs
Wannabe Veterans
Mike's US Navy SEAL Homepage

There may be more. I then emailed ALL of them asking for
confirmation whether Robert A.M. Stephens had or had not been a
Navy SEAL. Here are a couple responses so far:

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
From: "VeriSEAL" <agile@ix.netcom.com>
Organization: Phony SEAL Hall of Shame
To: Michael Theroux <director@borderlands.com>
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 20:49:52 +0000
Subject: Re: More info from ROBERT STEPHENS
Reply-to: agile@ix.netcom.com
Priority: urgent
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.01b)

Michael,

All of your e-mail info on Stephens has been forwarded to about
a dozen *REAL* former SEALs. What you have in the form of
Stephens is a 100% bonafide FRAUD.

Look for incoming messages from assorted retired Viet-era SEALs
who will likely be more than interested in Stephens. By the way,
the only two Teams in existence during WW-Vietnam were 1 and 2.
The owner of the Hall of Shame at the Teams Homepage (
http://The-South.Com/TheTeams ) is retired Senior Chief Kent
Dillingham, one of the plankowners of ST-3 in 1983. That means
he was one of the original founding SEALs for that Team.

Ciao,
Dana
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

I then Emailed Robert Stephens with this (his reply follows):

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

-------------------------
Date: Mon, 04 Jan 1999 08:44:57 +0000
From: "Robert A. M. Stephens" <sti3818@montana.com>
To: Michael Theroux <director@borderlands.com>,
Paul Dore <pdore@web-computing.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Hi Robert-Hi Michael


Michael Theroux wrote:

>Hi, excuse me for doing my homework, but this is what I have
>come up with:

>West Coast Teams
>SEAL Team 1 - South East Asia
>SEAL Team 3 - Middle East

>SEAL Team 5 - South Korea

>East Coast Teams
>SEAL Team 2 - Northern Europe
>SEAL Team 4 - South America
>SEAL Team 8 - Africa

>SEAL Team 6 - Anywhere

>According to my sources, Team 3 wasn't formed until after the
>Nam thing. So, there seems to be a conundrum here...

>Is this correct?

>just checkin' you out.

---------------
No problem, if they care. No conundrum.

Teams by formation save for 6 and 8, are pretty much open for
deployment by locale. Team 3 formation was in 1970 or
thereabouts. In the deploy for Courier Services and other
interdiction duty in non Viet Nam battle zone areas such as
Laos, Cambodia, Thailand and northern Burma and up on the
Chinese border proper, several small elements from Teams 2, 3
and 4 were used or detached. The Courier Services is where I
entered into service under 'last surviving son status' (see the
selective service link and the Military archive link). My draft
number in 1970 was 311 out of 366. The women and children would
have gone before me and the public thought for Viet Nam at that
time was the same view it has now for child molestation. Viet
Nam was winding down too military wise.

The statement above for region location is something new to me.
I did not know and have not been aware of the designation you
show above such as 'South Korea' in relation to Team number.
However, this may be something more recent.

The resolve where Teams would be located did not come finally
until 1975 and is still subject for relocation for center
locale. In 1982 it was rumored they would all be combined on the
south coast. Just rumors. 6 and the new 8 are units I know
nothing about since they are really under the actual true
umbrella 'ops' types operations and I do not know their details
or what they do. Team 2 practiced for ship interdiction and was
the true resolvers for the Achilles Laurel ship hijacking though
the media credited the Marines. However, they do everything else
too not reserved for that above.

The Pol Pot connection with the Khmer Rouge with support of the
Chinese communist served as the last and most severe potential
faction for continued upset in the southeast asia region as Viet
Nam was winding down for America. I never saw or was in Viet Nam
ever.

Robert Stephens
-----------------------------------

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D

I then forwarded this to the VeriSEAL contact and this was his
reply:

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

From: "VeriSEAL" <agile@ix.netcom.com>
Organization: Phony SEAL Hall of Shame
To: Michael Theroux <director@borderlands.com>
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 21:06:01 +0000
Subject: Re: More info from ROBERT STEPHENS

Michael,

For starters, you indicated his resume claims attachment to ST-3
from '70- '74. ST-3 didn't exist at that time. Secondly, he is
nowhere to be found in the SEAL personnel records archives.
Lastly, as demonstrated by his message which you were kind
enough to forward, he doesn't have the slightest idea what he's
talking about.

His name will eventually be prominently posted in the Hall of
Shame.

Ciao,
Dana

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

And finally, I spoke with Mr. J.H. "Hoot" Andrews, USN, Ret.
Retired from SEAL Team TWO. See his post on Art Bell's website:
http://bbs.rowlandnet.com/cgi-bin/WebX?14@@.ee6c827/46 . He
reiterated what I had already heard, and verified that Robert
A.M. Stephens is a fake.

I called Mr. Stephens after this and asked him some questions
about this. He said he had never heard of Senior Chief Kent
Dillingham, one of the plankowners of ST-3 in 1983 (see above)
and the very SEAL team of which Stephens was supposedly
attached. I asked him about the VeriSEAL's claims, and why if he
felt these people were wrong, did he not take issue with them?
He said he did not care.

I told Mr. Stephens that I would be forced to take down his
website because of his fraudulent statements, and he replied
that that was fine and that I should expose him as a fraud ,
fake, pathological liar, etc. I agreed. He did say he would be
forwarding a letter from Larry Mauk confirming his contracting
work with NASA.

I admit that I should have investigated him more thoroughly from
the start - as Richard Hoagland said on Art Bell's show, "On the
internet, no one knows you're a dog!". This is really quite
true, but I must say that a good investigation will reveal alot.

While Mr. Stephens appears to have been deluded, it by no means
makes all of his points and statements, invalid. But, how are we
to believe anything he has said in light of this information?
Does the "NORAD/Fence" database exist? Does the "Blind Transom"
DoD tracking software exist? What about his alien implant
information? Probably not.

Now, we are left with the question, "What was Robert A.M.
Stephens' motivation for all of this?" Was it for his "15
minutes" (actually an hour) of fame? Or, was it some sinister
coverup plot devised by whomever he may be really working for?
Perhaps we'll never know.

UPDATES to Follow

January, 04 1998
Michael Theroux
Director
Borderland Sciences Research Foundation - Since 1945
http://www.borderlands.com
theroux@borderlands.com









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 5

              Stephens Statement: "A Total Fraud In Every Way"

From: Jeff Rense <eotl@west.net>
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 01:05:32 -0800 (PST)
Fwd Date: Tue, 05 Jan 1999 09:27:09 -0500
Subject: Stephens Statement: "A Total Fraud In Every Way"

Hi Errol,

Received the following statement from Robert Stephens:

http://www.sightings.com/ufo2/steph.htm


Hi Jeff,

This should cover everything in question.

Robert A.M. Stephens is, from the very beginning, 10-16-1998 to
this date 1-4-1998, a complete and total fraud in every way.
From the beginning of the Montana UFO report to every single
statement and every single alluding to any and all claims of
every description regarding every single email, everything on my
short web site, and everything in-between, is the delusions and
self described insanities as so charged by the 155 emails I have
received so far charging me of same. The delusions and virtual
incoherence and total nonsense as pointed out by Art Bell on the
show with Richard Hoagland displayed by me is the immutable
truth of this fact.

If Art hadn't been kind enough to put a stop to this, he himself
would have been 'censored' as he emailed myself and others. All
proofs of my insidious lies from any type of involvement with
NASA, the military, the art program information, my resume,
artwork, art collections, numbers assessment, my work of any
kind thus claimed is categorical lies in every fashion. Art Bell
is to be praised for this amazing windfall of ferreting out
charlatans and fakes in the UFO industry like me and he has
shown in this case, "never before in my radio career have I seen
anything like this."

And he is obviously correct. My behavior was deplorable and
unacceptable in any rational form of human intercoursing. Kudos
to Mr. Bell, his staff, and his show, as well as the esteemed
scientist and respected researcher, Mr. Richard C. Hoagland. In
addition, the wonderful and erudite presentation of many of my
more delusional errors like railing about the moon and such,
must go to Michael Bara.

I do thank Mr. Richard C. Hoagland and Art Bell to give me a
opportunity to attempt foolishly to debate topics for which I
was obviously ill prepared for and failed miserably.

I thank the brave past and current Selective Service personnel
that have come forward pointing out my obvious delusions in
having any type of involvement in any branch of the military of
any kind past, current, or future. Kudos to these brave souls
who come forth in great wonder to bring to bare my deplorable
falsehoods.

All pending media dates due to the above mentioned revelations
of truth will be canceled in due time for this mail to circulate
and be known by all thus interested.

Lastly, I am a total complete fake and fraud in every way a
person can possibly be a fraud and a fake. A total delusional
fruit cake of the worst kind. A bahl mahl that will be legion in
the annals of profane, illterate, lying 'slimey' insects that
traffic this planet and attempt to interfere in the natural
course of things.

One last little railing from somone who is a total and complete
carnival huskster, a poor one at that, is this. You may wish to
look here: NRO, OIA.

I am servantly, and I remain always,


Robert A.M. Stephens


Behold.






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 5

              NASA's Stephens Admits to CAUS That He is a Fraud

From: Peter Gersten <UFOLAWYER1@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 23:58:36 EST
Fwd Date: Tue, 05 Jan 1999 09:35:32 -0500
Subject: NASA's Stephens Admits to CAUS That He is a Fraud


Dear CAUS Members:

During a 60 minute telephone conversation, Monday evening,
Robert A.M. Stephens admitted to me that he is a fraud.  It also
became obvious, during our telephone conversation, that Mr.
Stephens has no ethical or moral standards against lying.  To
Mr. Stephens, lying is no different from telling the truth. Mr.
Stephens further admitted that the evidence of him not being a
Navy SEAL was 'absolutely correct.'

I have now reevaluated my opinion that Art Bell overreacted in
prematurely terminating the Stephens interview last Wednesday.
I now agree with Art, that no useful purpose would have been
served by allowing him to make further confusing and untrue
statements.  Mr. Stephens' plan that night was to confuse and
lie.  He knows no other way. No radio broadcast, whether for
entertainment or news, should provide a forum for this
contemptuous behavior.  In a way we have Art to thank for
exposing Stephens.  No other radio program had terminated him
before...quite the opposite in fact. Several had given him
unlimited access to the airwaves...even after the Bell show.  In
the end, we have Art to thank for bringing this travesty to a
halt.  Art's action signaled the beginning of the end for Mr.
Stephens.

A person's credibility is determined in many ways.  Finding that
a person has lied in the past can lead to the inference that he
is lying now.  Mr. Stevens lied to us about how he became
involved in the UFO field.  According to the editor, at no time
did Mr. Stephens have any contact with the Lake County Leader in
Montana, contrary to what Stephens boasted in several e-mails.
Mr. Stephens lied to us about being a Navy SEAL.  What lies did
he tell us about his NASA affiliation?

Mr. Stephens was a lie waiting to be exposed...and he wanted to
be exposed. He challenged us, in several e-mails, to call the
newspaper...even listing the phone number in one.  He
continually referred to his background as a former Navy
SEAL...knowing that any reasonable background check would reveal
no such affiliation.  Mr. Stephens' actions remind me of a
serial killer's plea left at a murder scene 'help me before I
kill again.'  But in this case Mr. Stephens was telling
us...no...warning us..'stop me before I lie again.'  Mr.
Stephens cannot help himself.  And we did nothing to help
him...and in effect...did nothing to help ourselves.

Mr. Stephens was able to fool us for over 80 days.  Shame on us.
We are so eager, CAUS included, to find the truth, that we will
embrace any 'savior' who presents himself cloaked in the garb of
'knowing the truth.'  Tell us you are from the government, the
military or NASA and a path will be beaten to your door.  In
this case the path led to Oz.  Tell us you have 'secret'
information and we will jump into your bed.  In this case, the
waterbed just sprung a big leak.

The messages, the indications, the signs...were all there from
the beginning. His irrational behavior, his vulgarity, his
double-talk were warnings which we failed to heed...beCAUS he
proudly stated he was from NASA and 'knew' certain things.  He
told us about alien abductions, cattle mutilations, Intruders,
NORAD/Fence radar and a litany of other subjects so near and
dear to our heart.  He represented the holy grail in our search
for this 'truth' that has eluded us for over 50 years.
Unfortunately, his information was only his opinion at best and
a complete fabrication at worst.  A little knowledge is a
dangerous weapon in the wrong hands.  In Mr. Stephens' hands, we
became willing victims for his expert swordsmanship.

His statements about the intercept capability of the SR-71 and
the Stealth 117A were inaccurate; his statements about alien
abductions were his opinions and extremely narrow-minded and
prejudiced; his statements about being a SEAL and his contact
with the Montana newspaper were lies.  And most importantly, his
ability to access any NORAD system is questionable.

Mr. Stephens has been exposed.  He laughed tonight when I
congratulated him on lasting 80 days.  As I have stated on
several occasions....the messenger is always tainted.  In Mr.
Stephens' case...so was the message...and intentionally so.

Hopefully we can learn from the past and not continue to make
the same mistakes.  Mr. Stephens was sent to us as an example of
what we need to do in the future...if ever presented with
another 'savior.'

Mr. Stephens stated that he no longer will be involved in any
manner with the UFO field.  He has instructed Michael Theroux,
his webmaster, to terminate his website. (see
http://www.borderlands.com/robertfraud.htm for Michael's
explanation)  He also stated that he will no longer be making
any radio appearances or disseminating e-mails.  How convenient.

Fool me once..shame on you Mr. Stephens.  Fool me twice...shame
on me.  I would suggest that we not allow ourselves to be fooled
again and take him at his word...no more platforms.  The only
Intruder in this story...was Stephens himself.

Good-bye Mr. Stephens.  Thank you for the lesson.

Peter A. Gersten
Director


Be sure to visit the CAUS web site at http://caus.org
To join this mailing list, go to http://caus.org/feedback.htm

To be REMOVED from this mailing list, go to... http://caus.org/remove/






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 5

                        Rense To Gersten Re: Stephens

From: Jeff Rense <eotl@west.net>
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 01:19:32 -0800 (PST)
Fwd Date: Tue, 05 Jan 1999 09:39:05 -0500
Subject: Rense To Gersten Re: Stephens


Dear Peter,

Excellent post regarding Mr. Stephens' exposure for fraud.
However, I want to be certain that neither you nor anyone on
your list has any misunderstanding about Mr. Stephens' last few
appearances on my program. To wit:

12-28-98. One hour to discuss the STS 'close calls' (well
spoken) 12-29-98. One hour to discuss STS-50 and the anomalous
object

A total of 2 hours during the last four weeks of shows in
December.  And then:

12-31-98. One hour to discuss what happened on the Art Bell
program the night before (which I did not hear).  We always
cover breaking news when possible.

You said, "Several (radio programs) had given him unlimited
access to the airwaves...even after the Bell show.."

I would ask that you post this to your list for the sake of
clarifying the 'unlimited access' expression.  One hour does not
constitute 'unlimited access' in the case of this program.

Thanks again for referring me to John Schuessler to do the
much-deserved tribute to Betty Cash on my program this evening,
1-4-99.  He was outstanding.  So was Ms. Cash...


Thanks and best regards,

Jeff Rense






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 5

                Re: Robert A.M. Stephens Exposed as a Fraud?

From: Sue Kovios <bradford@globalserve.net>
Date: Tue, 05 Jan 1999 07:39:53 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 05 Jan 1999 09:55:05 -0500
Subject: Re: Robert A.M. Stephens Exposed as a Fraud?


At 04/01/99 11:49 PM -0500, Michael Theroux wrote:

>After the Art Bell show appearance, I began to do a more
>thorough investigation into his background. I emailed some of
>the contacts he said he had at NASA. One of them, declared a
>"buddy" by Mr. Stephens, wrote back saying, "I have never met or
>talked to Robert Stephens to my knowledge, and I have no idea if
>he is a Space Shuttle contractor as stated in his e-mail." He
>then went on to say, "I was simply responding to his e-mail in
>the spirit of public mail to NASA, and am a bit chagrined that
>he has termed me his "buddy" and that he posted my e-mail to him
>to the Web without asking me if he could do so." This NASA
>spokesperson asked that I do not forward or post his mail
>without permission =97 I am awaiting his permission.
>I then went after the SEAL Team-3 claim. There are many sites on
>the internet hosted by former Navy SEALs which enjoy exposing
>those who make such false claims. Here is a list:

>January, 04 1998
>Michael Theroux
>Director
>Borderland Sciences Research Foundation - Since 1945
>http://www.borderlands.com
>theroux@borderlands.com

Well I've done searching myself <g>.  Some of this sounds too
coincidental.

I started with: http://www.geeksquad.com/agents/66bio.htm
(Dossier on Robert Stephens)

Over a three year period, he rose to become head engineer of the
lab while earning scholarships from the U.S. Navy and the FAA
for research into virtual reality and construction of a
computer-based flight and driving simulator. It was also during
this time he started a computer consulting business. In April
1994, after three years at the University, he formed Geek Squad,
Inc. with $200. Now four years old, The Geek Squad is a 24-hour
on-site rapid-response computer task force with eighteen Special
Agents. The Geek Squad has over 3500 clients, including 3M,
General Mills, IBM, Cargill, Twentieth Century Fox, Warner Bros,
and The Rolling Stones. Now 29, Robert lives in Minneapolis.


Look at the other titles of the 'Special Agents' and their
portfolios.

and I checked out: http://www.geeksquad.com/aboutus.htm


Special Agents

Sacrificing any normal social life, Special Agents are the
highly trained specialists that are on-call for  you 24-hours a
day, seven days a week. Modeled after such elite groups such as
the Navy SEALS, NASA, and the Secret Service, Special Agents are
skilled in crisis management, rapid problem solving, and
adaptability. They operate successfully in hostile environments.
When you're in trouble, these are the people you need on your
side.

I checked out: http://www.artic.edu/saic/ats/courses.html which
are numerous courses in the Arts & Technology field Mr. Stephens
and others may have taken (including holography and 3-D
animation)

I think these 'Geeks' have been toying with the ufological
community.  Stand at attention guys. What do you think? Perhaps
they've been 'contracted' by NASA and the Navy SEALS on a
computer-consulting basis.  Perhaps that's why no one wants to
comment.

Sue Kovios





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 5

                         25 Rules of Disinformation

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
Date: Tue, 05 Jan 1999 14:29:11 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 05 Jan 1999 14:29:11 -0500
Subject: 25 Rules of Disinformation




In the light of the most recent RAMS events, I thought the
following might make interesting reading.

ebk
_____________________________________________


Source: http://www.trufax.org/research2/disinforules.html


Twenty-Five Rules of Disinformation - The Politicians Credo

Courtesy of American Patriot Friends Network and Walt
July 15, 1998

Note: The first rule and last five (or six, depending on
situation) rules are generally not directly within the ability
of the traditional disinfo artist to apply. These rules are
generally used more directly by those at the leadership, key
players, or planning level of the criminal conspiracy or
conspiracy to cover up.

1.  Hear no evil, see no evil, speak no evil. Regardless of what
you know, don't discuss it -- especially if you are a public
figure, news anchor, etc. If it's not reported, it didn't
happen, and you never have to deal with the issues.

2.  Become incredulous and indignant. Avoid discussing key
issues and instead focus on side issues which can be used show
the topic as being critical of some otherwise sacrosanct group
or theme. This is also known as the "How dare you!" gambit.

3.  Create rumor mongers. Avoid discussing issues by describing
all charges, regardless of venue or evidence, as mere rumors and
wild accusations. Other derogatory terms mutually exclusive of
truth may work as well. This method works especially well with a
silent press, because the only way the public can learn of the
facts are through such "arguable rumors". If you can associate
the material with the Internet, use this fact to certify it a
"wild rumor" which can have no basis in fact.

4.  Use a straw man. Find or create a seeming element of your
opponent's argument which you can easily knock down to make
yourself look good and the opponent to look bad. Either make up
an issue you may safely imply exists based on your
interpretation of the opponent/opponent arguments/situation, or
select the weakest aspect of the weakest charges. Amplify their
significance and destroy them in a way which appears to debunk
all the charges, real and fabricated alike, while actually
avoiding discussion of the real issues.

5.  Sidetrack opponents with name calling and ridicule. This is
also known as the primary attack the messenger ploy, though
other methods qualify as variants of that approach. Associate
opponents with unpopular titles such as "kooks", "right-wing",
"liberal", "left-wing", "terrorists", "conspiracy buffs",
"radicals", "militia", "racists", "religious fanatics", "sexual
deviates", and so forth. This makes others shrink from support
out of fear of gaining the same label, and you avoid dealing
with issues.

6.  Hit and Run. In any public forum, make a brief attack of
your opponent or the opponent position and then scamper off
before an answer can be fielded, or simply ignore any answer.
This works extremely well in Internet and letters-to-the-editor
environments where a steady stream of new identities can be
called upon without having to explain criticism reasoning --
simply make an accusation or other attack, never discussing
issues, and never answering any subsequent response, for that
would dignify the opponent's viewpoint.

7.  Question motives. Twist or amplify any fact which could so
taken to imply that the opponent operates out of a hidden
personal agenda or other bias. This avoids discussing issues and
forces the accuser on the defensive.

8.  Invoke authority. Claim for yourself or associate yourself
with authority and present your argument with enough "jargon"
and "minutiae" to illustrate you are "one who knows", and simply
say it isn't so without discussing issues or demonstrating
concretely why or citing sources.

9.  Play Dumb. No matter what evidence or logical argument is
offered, avoid discussing issues with denial they have any
credibility, make any sense, provide any proof, contain or make
a point, have logic, or support a conclusion. Mix well for
maximum effect.

10.  Associate opponent charges with old news. A derivative of
the straw man usually, in any large-scale matter of high
visibility, someone will make charges early on which can be or
were already easily dealt with. Where it can be foreseen, have
your own side raise a straw man issue and have it dealt with
early on as part of the initial contingency plans. Subsequent
charges, regardless of validity or new ground uncovered, can
usually them be associated with the original charge and
dismissed as simply being a rehash without need to address
current issues -- so much the better where the opponent is or
was involved with the original source.

11.  Establish and rely upon fall-back positions. Using a minor
matter or element of the facts, take the "high road" and
"confess" with candor that some innocent mistake, in hindsight,
was made -- but that opponents have seized on the opportunity to
blow it all out of proportion and imply greater criminalities
which, "just isn't so." Others can reinforce this on your
behalf, later. Done properly, this can garner sympathy and
respect for "coming clean" and "owning up" to your mistakes
without addressing more serious issues.

12.  Enigmas have no solution. Drawing upon the overall umbrella
of events surrounding the crime and the multitude of players and
events, paint the entire affair as too complex to solve. This
causes those otherwise following the matter to begin to loose
interest more quickly without having to address the actual
issues.

13.  Alice in Wonderland Logic. Avoid discussion of the issues
by reasoning backwards with an apparent deductive logic in a way
that forbears any actual material fact.

14.  Demand complete solutions. Avoid the issues by requiring
opponents to solve the crime at hand completely, a ploy which
works best for items qualifying for rule 10.

15.  Fit the facts to alternate conclusions. This requires
creative thinking unless the crime was planned with contingency
conclusions in place.

16.  Vanishing evidence and witnesses. If it does not exist, it
is not fact, and you won't have to address the issue.

17.  Change the subject. Usually in connection with one of the
other ploys listed here, find a way to side-track the discussion
with abrasive or controversial comments in hopes of turning
attention to a new, more manageable topic. This works especially
well with companions who can "argue" with you over the new topic
and polarize the discussion arena in order to avoid discussing
more key issues.

18.  Emotionalize, Antagonize, and Goad Opponents. If you can't
do anything else, chide and taunt your opponents and draw them
into emotional responses which will tend to make them look
foolish and overly motivated, and generally render their
material somewhat less coherent. Not only will you avoid
discussing the issues in the first instance, but even if their
emotional response addresses the issue, you can further avoid
the issues by then focusing on how "sensitive they are to
criticism".

19.  Ignore proof presented, demand impossible proofs. This is
perhaps a variant of the "play dumb" rule. Regardless of what
material may be presented by an opponent in public forums, claim
the material irrelevant and demand proof that is impossible for
the opponent to come by (it may exist, but not be at his
disposal, or it may be something which is known to be safely
destroyed or withheld, such as a murder weapon). In order to
completely avoid discussing issues may require you to
categorically deny and be critical of media or books as valid
sources, deny that witnesses are acceptable, or even deny that
statements made by government or other authorities have any
meaning or relevance.

20.  False evidence. Whenever possible, introduce new facts or
clues designed and manufactured to conflict with opponent
presentations as useful tools to neutralize sensitive issues or
impede resolution. This works best when the crime was designed
with contingencies for the purpose, and the facts cannot be
easily separated from the fabrications.

21.  Call a Grand Jury, Special Prosecutor, or other empowered
investigative body. Subvert the (process) to your benefit and
effectively neutralize all sensitive issues without open
discussion. Once convened, the evidence and testimony are
required to be secret when properly handled. For instance, if
you own the prosecuting attorney, it can insure a Grand Jury
hears no useful evidence and that the evidence is sealed an
unavailable to subsequent investigators. Once a favorable
verdict (usually, this technique is applied to find the guilty
innocent, but it can also be used to obtain charges when seeking
to frame a victim) is achieved, the matter can be considered
officially closed.

22.  Manufacture a new truth. Create your own expert(s),
group(s), author(s), leader(s) or influence existing ones
willing to forge new ground via scientific, investigative, or
social research or testimony which concludes favorably. In this
way, if you must actually address issues, you can do so
authoritatively.

23.  Create bigger distractions. If the above does not seem to
be working to distract from sensitive issues, or to prevent
unwanted media coverage of unstoppable events such as trials,
create bigger news stories (or treat them as such) to distract
the multitudes.

24.  Silence critics. If the above methods do not prevail,
consider removing opponents from circulation by some definitive
solution so that the need to address issues is removed entirely.
This can be by their death, arrest and detention, blackmail or
destruction of their character by release of blackmail
information, or merely by proper intimidation with blackmail or
other threats.

25.  Vanish. If you are a key holder of secrets or otherwise
overly illuminated and you think the heat is getting too hot, to
avoid the issues, vacate the kitchen.





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 5

               Re: Military Ability to Detect & Identify UFOs

From: Michael Christol <mchristo@mindspring.com>
Date: Mon, 04 Jan 1999 17:35:35 -0600
Fwd Date: Tue, 05 Jan 1999 15:06:06 -0500
Subject: Re: Military Ability to Detect & Identify UFOs


>From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
>Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 00:32:51 EST
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Re: Military Ability to Detect & Identify UFOs

>Dear Mike, Farley and List:

>Of course the Moon rotates on its own axis, just as the Earth
>rotates on its own. They are almost, but not quite, in
>lockstep. It is, however, a misconception that we always see
>exactly the same face. In fact we can see 59% of the Moon's
>surface from the Earth over a 30 year period. This is due to a
>number of Libratory Motions:

<snip>

>The combined effects can mean that the center of the Moon can be
>shifted as much as 10 degrees, 16 minutes. Try looking at the
>Moon in binoculars, say, once a week. Check out the different
>position of Mare Crisium (the left ear of the Man in the Moon).
>You will be amazed at how it changes. Sky & Telescope or
>Astronomy mags give predictions for these shifts in each issue.
>
>Bob Young


Thank you Bob for the above informatin...It is new to me...
I appreciate you taking the time to post it.
May I take it that you are no less than an amature astronomer?
Possilby a professional astronomer?

I gladly admit that the information you have posted is far
beyond what I have taken the time to study regarding the moon.

Again Thanks.

REgards, Mike





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 5

               Re: Military Ability to Detect & Identify UFOs

From: Michael Christol <mchristo@mindspring.com>
Date: Mon, 04 Jan 1999 17:50:07 -0600
Fwd Date: Tue, 05 Jan 1999 15:08:35 -0500
Subject: Re: Military Ability to Detect & Identify UFOs


>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
>Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 01:46:28 EST
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Re: Military Ability to Detect & Identify UFOs


>Say Mike... put on your Captain Video Space helmet for a sec,
>here, ol' buddy.... by the way, I still have one! Really!

Jim Old Boy, I never had a Captain Video Space Helmet.... I
happen to have conservative parents and they wouldn't but me
one...Gaudddddd....I would have loved to have
had one back then....<G>

>Now think a moment. The moon doesn't have a backside, not
>exactly. Yes. The moon presents the same face to us but the only
>way it can is by turning on it's axis of rotation.

Jim, Bob Young finally got me straightened out on this. Thanks
for your attempt to explain to an old hard headed guy like
myself....Man, I don't know how I could not have know this, as
much as I read about our solar system in the youth of my life.

I think it was them dang American Astronauts as well as Old
George Adamski which caused me to fixate on the idea that there
was a true unseen backside to the moon.  IN fact, I think I did
read that at one time...that there was a side of the moon that
we were not able to see from earth....

But, I guess I was wrong...Oh, well, pick myself up, wipe the
egg from my face and start again...sigh....My poor old knees are
getting very sore from all this crawling...<g>

>Now sit down. With all this excitement, you need a Freshly
>Made. May I suggest our Ordinary Vinny? It's bold, but not at
>all presumptuous, fresh of course, but not overly ripe. And,
>they are mild!

More bad news Jim...I don't drink any form of Alcohol, not even
the rubbing type...<g> I am strictly a teatotaler...
Sorry...don't mean to put a dampre on your sales...

I toured some Wineries in Southern France in June, 1994, and out
of courtesy to the host, I managed to sip down a sample
taste...but since I have not developed a taste, I didn't know if
it was good or not...(hickup...opps...sorry about that...)<G>

>Dr. Gesundt, Astronomer, Consultant to Carl Sagan and Steven
>Hawking.... and I'm not just a client, I'm also the president of
>Freshly Made.

Good news Jim...maybe between a glass of wine and a good old
fashion brow beating you and those mentioned in the last
sentence, with the exception of Carl Sagan can beat me into
submission... Ha, ha, ha...<g>

Thanks, Jim...enjoyable post...

>By the way, everything I said above is a crock of tripe. The
>moon has no axis at all. It's hollow. And it's got a three
>cylinder, two stroke SAAB 96 ingine just below the surface.
>God. Can't even kid around this list anymore without having to
>post your resume and present references for pity sake. Just what
>the hell do you guys think them aliens is doing here anyway.
>They need oil to add to the gas or the moon just won't stay put!


Shhhhhhiiii...you're not suppose to tell everyone that... I have
been keeping it under wraps...shucks, now its out and everyone
will know it...<g>

;-)

REgards, Mike





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 5

               Re: Military Ability to Detect & Identify UFOs

From: Michael Christol <mchristo@mindspring.com>
Date: Mon, 04 Jan 1999 18:06:13 -0600
Fwd Date: Tue, 05 Jan 1999 15:10:58 -0500
Subject: Re: Military Ability to Detect & Identify UFOs


>From: Farley Scott <SCOTTF@HughesLuce.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: Military Ability to Detect & Identify UFOs
>Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 10:29:48 -0600

>Hi Mike,

>It is my understanding from college astronomy (24 years ago)
>that the moon's period of rotation about its own axis is very
>close to the same period as it's orbit about the earth.

>Here is a fact sheet on the moon:

>http://delphi.gsfc.nasa.gov/planetary/factsheet/moonfact.html

>And from Microsoft Encarta 98 (sorry, it's the only general
>reference I had):

>"It completes one revolution in an elliptical orbit about the
>earth in 27 days 7 hours 43 minutes 11.5 seconds with reference
>to the stars. For the moon to go from one phase to the next
>similar phase, or one lunar month, requires 29 days 12 hours 44
>minutes 2.8 seconds. The moon rotates once on its axis in about
>the same period of time that elapses for its sidereal period of
>revolution, accounting for the fact that virtually the same
>portion of the moon is always turned toward the earth."

>"Moon," Microsoft(R) Encarta(R) 98 Encyclopedia.
>(c) 1993-1997 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.

>Regards,
>Farley Scott


Thanks Farley...

I have had this information passed on to me by several users on
UFO Updates today...

I am greatful for all of you taking the time to correct my views
on this subject.

I guess I took my views from the idea that the astronauts were
looking at a side of the moon that the people on the earth never
got to see.  Thus mistakenly "assumed" that the moon did not
rotate.

Thanks again...

REgards, Mike





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 5

               Re: Jerry Black's Challenge To Whitley Strieber

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 20:28:21 EST
Fwd Date: Tue, 05 Jan 1999 15:45:08 -0500
Subject: Re: Jerry Black's Challenge To Whitley Strieber


>Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 14:27:37 -0500
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: John <jvif@spacelab.net>
>Subject: Re: Jerry Black's Challenge To Whitley Strieber

>>Date: Sat, 02 Jan 1999 03:03:12 -0600
>>To: updates@globalserve.net
>>From: Glenn Joyner <infohead@airmail.net>
>>Subject: Jerry Black's Challenge To Whitley Strieber

>>Hello Errol, and List members:

>>As you know, I do transcription work for Jerry Black. Here's the
>>latest "open letter" from Jerry. Please note that his site has
>>moved to:

>>http://members.xoom.com/blackshole

>>Thanks,

>>Glenn

>>---------------------------------------------------------------

>>An Extensive Review of Whitley Strieber and His Claims of
>>Encounters With the Visitors

>>by Jerry Black

>>January 1999

>Hi All,

>Isn't this the same blowhard who wrote several 25 page+ long
>internet rants about the Gulfbreeze case? It appears that after
>having gotten nowhere with Bruce Macabee and others relating to
>that case, that Mr Black now turns his jaundiced eye towards
>Whitley Strieber. 'Submit to a polygraph test or I'll splatter
>your refusal all over the web' says he to Whitley. This guy
>Black has a pair of cohones that an Indian elephant would envy.
>Thank Ghod he's not a UN diplomat or we'd really be in trouble!
>:-D

>Porposal: Let's follow the example of the Democrats and simply
>throw money at the problem!

>If we all chip in .50 cents, we will be able to afford a small
>Sears refractor telescope, a rubiks cube, and maybe even one of
>those sexy rubber blow up friends for Mr. Black, (who is in
>_desperate need_ of a time consuming hobby.) I am confident that
>if the objects we provide him with are 'shiny' enough, it might
>preoccupy him and spare _us_ from yet another round of his
>pointless nit picking rantings. I don't know about you, but .50
>cents seems a small price to pay for the peace of mind we would
>all gain in return.

>Send all contributions to:

>The Jerry Black Hobby Fund (or JEBHOFU)
>121 Sparemethegrief Blvd.
>Beendere Dondat, California, 90734

>Remember, the mind you save may be your own. So please, dig
>deep, and give till it hurts. It's for a just cause.

>Personal note:

>You should take some comfort in the knowledge that you are not
>alone, and that you are not crazy. _Others_ experience the same
>urge to commit Hari-Kari with a dull butter knife _everytime_
>they find a 25 page long post from Jerry Black in their mailbox.
>There is no need for you to feel isolated or unique. If need be,
>I will start a support group for those who need help dealing
>with this unsettling and life disrupting phenomenon.

>Let's try the toys first. Failing that, we'll start up the
>support group. As Ghod is my witness, we will _one way or
>another_ survive this latest attack on our sensibilities.

>'Blackhole' - what an appropriate name for Mr Blacks' website.
>It's what I feel I've been sucked into everytime I read one of
>his posts!   :-D

>John Velez (Speaking strictly for myself)

Dear Mr. Velez and List;

 Our beloved founder ... has heard you.

Dr. Jaime Gesundt, out of infinite generosity, will donate 100
cases of his latest project, "Wine and Latex, You Gotta Love
'Em" and will send them to the address specified.... in a plain
crate so nobody gets to sniff, blow or snoop.

This latest "L-Squared" (Latex and Loony) product consists of
Dr. Gesundt's most powerful elixir we've aptly named, "WOOF!"
It comes with one blow up latex lady (or one latex [reinforced,
of course] "guy doll") with every bottle.  Normally selling for
only $19.95 a settee set, JEBHOFU gets it on free, for Black's
perspiration pleasure.  And, it's loaded.... with vitamin Gee!?!
Drink and.... uh, whatever, in good gesundt, that's Yiddish for
"health."

Oh, one last suggestion.  Make sure the person using our product
keeps well hydrated or he may look like a prune after only a few
minutes on WOOF!

Dr. Morty for Dr. G.
To your "Good Health & Good Lovin' with lotsa water!"





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 5

                              Re: Alien Images

From: Terry Blanton <commengr@bellsouth.net>
Date: Mon, 04 Jan 1999 21:07:32 -0800
Fwd Date: Tue, 05 Jan 1999 15:52:09 -0500
Subject: Re: Alien Images


>From: John Ratcliff <johnr@simutronics.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Alien Images
>Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 16:17:07 -0600

>A few years ago when I was following the alien autopsy story as
>it unfolded I commissioned a friend of mine to create a couple
>of alien logo images based on the now infamous film.  These were
>supposed to be for t-shirt designs, with all profits to go to a
>fund to help children suffering from polydactly and other
>symptoms exhibited by the tragic figure in the alien autopsy
>drama.  I had long since forgotten about this and, of course,
>never got around to making the t-shirts.  I would love to credit
>the artist but I am ashamed to admit that it has been so long I
>cannot recall the name of my once good friend.

Hi, John,

As shown on the first figure, Karl Kofoed was the designer . . .
at the time you were both frequent visitors to the forum.






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 5

               Re: Military Ability to Detect & Identify UFOs

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 21:44:05 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 05 Jan 1999 15:54:11 -0500
Subject: Re: Military Ability to Detect & Identify UFOs


>Date: Sat, 02 Jan 1999 18:39:33 -0600
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Michael Christol <mchristo@mindspring.com>
>Subject: Re: Military Ability to Detect & Identify UFOs


>>From: Farley Scott <SCOTTF@HughesLuce.com>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>Subject: Re: Military Ability to Detect & Identify UFOs
>>Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1998 14:07:26 -0600

>>Others have already pointed out his bogus information such as
>>where he states that the moon does not rotate about its own
>>axis. This guy is supposed to be knowledgeable in celestial
>>mechanics?

>>Just my opinion.

>>Farley Scott
>Dallas, TX

>What?  What!  Where did you or anyone else get the idea that the
>moon rotates on it's axis?  The moon rotates around the earth,
>keeping the same face to us at all times. It does not rotate as
>the earth rotates...

>Otherwise there would be no "backside" of the moon which is
>"unseen" by astronomers or the average person.>

>I seem to have missed something here...I can't believe that
>people think the moon rotates through a cycle ever so many
>hours...If it did, then we would see its other faces...>


Rotation or non-rotation depends upon your point of view.   For
a person on th earth a thousand years ago the accepted point of
view was that th earth was flat and certainly did not move
(otherwise we would feel the motion!). Everything else moved
(relative to the stationary earth).

The Copernicus (and others) advocated the sun as "stationary"
and the earth going around it.   This can only be "seen",
however, from the point of view of the distant ("fixed"....but
they are moving) stars.

Now, from the point of view of an observer stationary with
respect to the fixed stars, who is positioned far above the
orbital plane of the solar system, and said observer looking
down at the north pole of the earth, then the earth rotatesabou
its axis once every 24 hours.  The moon orbits around the earth
AND..it turns (about its own axis) slowly as it orbits such that
one "face" of the moon continually points toward the earth.

Thus the fact that we see only the "man in the moon" side of the
moon translates to one rotation about its axis every 28 days
(about) with respect to the distant stars.





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 5

               Re: Jerry Black's Challenge To Whitley Strieber

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 21:44:23 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 05 Jan 1999 16:00:29 -0500
Subject: Re: Jerry Black's Challenge To Whitley Strieber


>Date: Sat, 02 Jan 1999 03:03:12 -0600
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>From: Glenn Joyner <infohead@airmail.net>
>Subject: Jerry Black's Challenge To Whitley Strieber


>Hello Errol, and List members:

>As you know, I do transcription work for Jerry Black. Here's the
>latest "open letter" from Jerry. Please note that his site has
>moved to:

>http://members.xoom.com/blackshole

>Thanks,

>Glenn

---------------------------------------------------------------

>An Extensive Review of Whitley Strieber and His Claims of
>Encounters With the Visitors

>by Jerry Black

>January 1999

<snip>

>Mr. Strieber's actions here remind me of his original reaction
>about the Gulf Breeze case, in stating that people should take a
>second look Ed Walters' Gulf Breeze photographs. He bases his
>entire opinion on this case, besides his actually going to Gulf
>Breeze at one time

(did Mr. Black ever do that?)

>I believe, on the fact that a close friend of
>his saw an object very similar to the Ed Walters object, two days
>before the alleged Walters encounters. Obviously Mr. Strieber is
>not a UFO investigator, because one cannot rely on one person's
>sighting of an object to validate the UFO sighting of another
>person.

Hmmmmm..... in past years Black and other skeptics have
"complained" that other witnesses to the thing that Ed
saw/photographed were deluded,were part of the "conspiracy"
along with Ed and family, or were simply trying for publicity.
Now we have Streiber saying he personally knew someone who
claimed to have seen the same thing two days before Ed's
photos....and so, if this were true, could not possibly have
been influenced by Ed's photos (which were not publicized until
8 days after they were taken on Nov. 11, 1987).

Not surprising that Streiber would be inclined to believe his
friend. And, assuming he believed his friend, and that his
friend's description was reasonably accurate, then if his
friend's description matched that of the UFO Ed photographed it
would certainly appear that (a) such things were in the vicinity
and real and (b) hence the sightings could be mutually
supportive. There were other peopl who claimed to have seen the
same thing. I don't know who Steiber's friend is and so I don't
know if that person "went public." But about a dozen did,
including Dr. and Mrs. Fenner McConnell, who said they saw the
same thing in July, 1988.

So accepting his friend's story and allowing it to lend sone
support for Ed's sightings doesn't make Steiber a "bad UFO
investigator."

> In this case, I obviously do not know what his good
>friend saw two days before Ed Walters first took his photographs,

Perhaps Jerry should have found out before making the following
statement:

>but whatever he saw was not what Ed Walters alleges to have seen,

Now we learn the real reason why Mr. Black can't accept the
observation by Streiber's friend:

>because it has been conclusively proven that the objects that Ed
>Walters photographed were models. Accordingly, there is no way
>that Mr. Strieber's friend, two days earlier, could have seen the
>objects in the sky that Ed Walters photographed.

Conclusively proven?

Only in Mr. Black's mind (and that of a few others).

Arguments over the Gulf Breeze photos have raged over years...
and despite the efforts of the dyed in the woll skeptics, the
photos still stand. They don't/won't understand the examnations
those photos have undergone.

For example, a test which killed the recent Mexico City Video of
Aug. 7, 1997 (big disc goes behind building....featured on the
"Fox Hoaxes" show)...was applied to Ed's photos (years before,
of course). The test was to see if the background image and the
UFO image were smeared by the same amount when rapid camera hand
vibration occurred. IN the Mexico city case the background
was smeared by motion but the UFO image was not.

OF course, Ed's photos were not movies. HOwever, they were
presumed by the skeptics to be "two step" creations (double
exposure) which DOES allow for a test of relative image smear.
IT is assumed the first photo was taken of a model in a dark
room,model lighted, silhouetted against a black backdrop. Then
the camera was taken outside and the backgroud scenery was
photrographed. In each case there was the possibility for camera
smear since these were essentially time exposures (about 1
second). That is, hand vibration during the photo of th UFO
model would create one smear of the image of the model (unless
mounted on a tripod...which it wasn't)...and hand vibration
during the second exposure would create another smear, this time
of the background.

Fortunately for analysis of the first photographs the nearby
scenery included a streetlight. The smear of this light image
was compared with that of the light in the UFO image. The smears
were found to be equal in magnitude and direction. This was
reported by Jeff Sainio in the 1992 MUFON SYmposium proceedings.

The result of this sort of test, finding the camera vibration
smears of the UFO and background images to be the same, argues
against a double exposure of a model. THere are other arguments
against faking of the Gulf Breeze photos presented in th book
'UFOs Are Real, Here's The Proof' by Walters and Maccabee (Avon
paperback, 1997)

>My objectivity and fairness is well-known in the UFO community.
I> support the Travis Walton case, and I support the Liberty,
>Kentucky case. An extensive investigation, of four and a half
>years, into the Ed Walters Gulf Breeze case has conclusively
>shown that the case is a hoax. Ed Walters was given the same
>opportunity. He was asked on two different occasions by myself,
>and on one occasion by Mr. Rex Salisberry, to undergo a third
>party polygraph test, properly sponsored. Mr. Walters has
>refused all three requests to undergo a properly-given polygraph
>test.

>At this time, I am asking Mr. Whitley Strieber to take a
>properly- administered polygraph test, sponsored by a third
>party.

>As I have said earlier, and as confirmed by Mr. Billy J. Riggs,
>who was the President of the Polygraph Association of Florida in
>1992, and which is also the view of the National Polygraph
>Association, the subject person under investigation cannot take
>his own polygraph test. It is considered an invalid test.

>In fact, in the words of Mr. Billy J. Riggs, no good competent
>polygraph expert, in his opinion, would give a polygraph test
>under those circumstances. Mr. Ed Walters tried this, as well.
>Of course, his test results were considered null and void. As I
>stated earlier, Mr. Walters refused to take a properly-sponsored
>polygraph test.

To say that the test results were "null and void" is a statement
of opinion only and not of fact. Mr. Black, so far as I know,
never talked to the polygraphist who tested Ed twice. I did talk
to him. He gave good reasons for believing that his polygraph
test was valid.

The polygraphist's opinion, based on the testing, was - (a) Ed
is telling the truth as Ed believes it to be true and (b) Ed is
not a sociopath... This opinion is consistent with that of
clinical psychologist Dr. Dan Overlade (whose statement is in
the book 'Abductions In Gulf Breeze' by Ed and Frances Walters).

Overlade gave Walters a battery of psychological tests and found
no signs of mental disorder and no signs of a sociopathic
personality. He found no evidence that Ed was making it all up
or that Ed had hoaxed anything.





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 5

                                     Re:

From: Ted Viens <drtedv@freewwweb.com>
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 22:02:02 -0600
Fwd Date: Tue, 05 Jan 1999 16:02:48 -0500
Subject: Re:


>From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: Military Ability to Detect & Identify UFOs
>Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1999 17:14:18 -0500


>>Date: Sun, 03 Jan 1999 11:28:11 -0800
>>From: Perry Mick <perrym@teleport.com>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>,
>>Subject: Re: Military Ability to Detect & Identify UFOs

>>>What? What! Where did you or anyone else get the idea that the
>>>moon rotates on it's axis? The moon rotates around the earth,
>>>keeping the same face to us at all times. It does not rotate as
>>>the earth rotates...

>>It's such a simple thing, I think people just get confused by
>>the language used to describe it.

>>The moon does rotate, but it's period of rotation is the same as
>>it's orbital period around the earth. That is why it always
>>keeps the same face towards us.

>If it didn't rotate on its axis, it would show one face to Asia,
>and the opposite face to North America.


Well, almost, no, not really.  On any given day, within the 24
hours of the earths rotation, all  parts of the earth would see
essentially the same side of the moon.  Now, if the moon did not
rotate on its own axis basically one revolution for each orbit
around the earth, then at the first quarter, we would see the
opposite side of the moon than at the third quarter.  Since we
don't see this, the moon rotates on its own axis...

Bye...  Ted..





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 5

                           Re: Cough, Korf, Ahem!

From: Sean Jones <seanj@tedric.demon.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 07:12:28 +0000
Fwd Date: Tue, 05 Jan 1999 16:05:00 -0500
Subject: Re: Cough, Korf, Ahem!


>From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
>Date: Mon, 04 Jan 1999 13:33:58 +0000
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Cough, Korf, Ahem!

>I have great respect for all these people. My point is that
>"field work" is equal to "armchair work" if the results are the
>same: Only an opinion. But your intended point is well taken.
>Perhaps your comment that "only hard work matters" should be
>combined with my comment "only results matter" to read: "Hard
>work only matters if it produces usable results".

>I can't think of anything more fair than that.


Hi Roger

I didn't actually say ONLY hard work, but I'll concede you are
being reasonable.

---
    In an infinite universe infinitely anything is possible.
                       Sean Jones
 Homepage--http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Zone/1745/index.htm





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 5

                               Re: Help Needed

From: Sean Jones <seanj@tedric.demon.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 07:11:47 +0000
Fwd Date: Tue, 05 Jan 1999 16:09:06 -0500
Subject: Re: Help Needed


>Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 08:40:12 -0500 (EST)
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Bob Shell <bob@bobshell.com>
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Help Needed

Hi Bob

I seem to have "lost" all my email from the 3rd so I've had to
reply to this manually.

I have found at:

http://www.scientificamerican.com/1998/0398cosmos/0398linde.html

an article called "The Self-Reproducing Inflationary Universe"
but I am sure this is not _quite_ the article I was looking for.
So I would be extremely grateful if your beloved wife has not
thrown out the recent magazine with the article that I am
looking for in it :-)

Cheers

---
    In an infinite universe infinitely anything is possible.
                       Sean Jones
 Homepage--http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Zone/1745/index.htm





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 5

                Re: Robert A.M. Stephens Exposed as a Fraud?

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 08:56:33 EST
Fwd Date: Tue, 05 Jan 1999 16:15:11 -0500
Subject: Re: Robert A.M. Stephens Exposed as a Fraud?


>Source: http://www.borderlands.com/robertfraud.htm

>Robert A.M. Stephens Exposed as a Fraud

>I have recently done a fairly thorough investigation into the
>claims made by Robert A.M. Stephens. Borderland Sciences'
>association with Mr. Stephens began after he emailed me about
>information I had posted to my website concerning the December
>7th Landing. Some of the information Mr. Stephens was presenting
>seemed very interesting (although unverifiable) and I asked him
>if he would like us to put up a webpage for him.

>After the December 30th, 1998 guest appearance by Mr. Stephens
>on the Art Bell show, many (including myself) started to
>question Mr. Stephens credibility.

>The following is a report of my investigation on Mr. Robert A.M.

<snip>

>While Mr. Stephens appears to have been deluded, it by no means
>makes all of his points and statements, invalid. But, how are we
>to believe anything he has said in light of this information?
>Does the "NORAD/Fence" database exist? Does the "Blind Transom"
>DoD tracking software exist? What about his alien implant
>information? Probably not.

>Now, we are left with the question, "What was Robert A.M.
>Stephens' motivation for all of this?" Was it for his "15
>minutes" (actually an hour) of fame? Or, was it some sinister
>coverup plot devised by whomever he may be really working for?
>Perhaps we'll never know.

>UPDATES to Follow

>January, 04 1998
>Michael Theroux
>Director
>Borderland Sciences Research Foundation - Since 1945
>http://www.borderlands.com
>theroux@borderlands.com

My God. And some of us dimbulbs (me included) still wish to
continue doing the work in this zoo illogical UFOillogical
society. Klassers must be having a laugh a minute with all this.

Look for motives? Why? Doesn't really matter, does it? Neil
Young wrote a song about the "Needle and the Damage Done." I
respectfully suggest we begin to recycle our needles or we are
going to get very sick indeed. Perhaps we should be considering
Freshly Made prior to posting.  It may make more sense in some
cases. And you don't need a needle... just a big mouth and cast
iron stomach!

"Oh, oh... the damage done..."

Every time something like this happens, it brings us all down a
notch. 1998 was a year for notching down, and just when things
were notching up, too .. events, sightings and exciting research
went on despite the fakes and fakirs. But the results of all
this labor of love and generous giving of self (plural) by
dedicated and worthy men and women has been drawn down into the
pits of disbelief and double entendre.

Add a dollop of subterfuge, of cavil, of haggling and quibbling
among us, and fold in some vagueness for good measure. The
result is a level of mistrust among ourselves, not to mention
the general population of people who are interested in the
subject.... mistrust over anything we uncover.

Fold in a burgeoning Internet which acts to disseminate all this
indignity with the speed of light, almost literally, and you "
... aint got no faith, you got unbelief ... " God I love Dylan!

Doubt... it's what it's all about. From Stephens to Korff, from
... "Ah, but we (sic I) were so much older then... we're (sic
I'm) younger than that now..."

Would one of you care to deliver an on-line address on the state
of our disunion? Include New Age, sex with reptilians, forecast
landings in Paduca, aliens with buttons and bows, channeling,
laughing and scratching, billion dollar web sites, NEXRAD
anomalies... Shoot, harp used to be what my mother in law did
whenever my name came up... and much, much more. Put it together
and what have you got, bibitty bobitty boo.

Please excuse this miserable excuse for a post. I am depressed
and I ran outa Gripple. Damn. Story of my life. Just like a cop,
I mean, when you need one he's out ripping off a drug dealer and
when you don't, he's giving his life for the job.

I'm so confused!

Now for some recent headlines...


Kavorkian maned as White House Physician!

Honk if you've been abducted! (Oops, sorry, that's a bumper
sticker)

My God, they've killed them all!

OK, which one of you is telling the truth?

OK, which one of you is telling the truth?

I taught I taw a UFO?

Shut up kid, it was just swamp gas!

Secrets of alien agenda, revealed. Film at eleven!

Faked Secrets of alien agenda revealed, film at...

This just in... nothing happened!

OK, which one of you is telling the truth?






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 5

                   Re: Stephens Statement: "A Total Fraud"

From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
Date: Tue, 05 Jan 1999 10:11:16 +0000
Fwd Date: Tue, 05 Jan 1999 16:18:59 -0500
Subject: Re: Stephens Statement: "A Total Fraud"


>From: Jeff Rense <eotl@west.net>
>Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 01:05:32 -0800 (PST)ud In Every Way"
>Subject: Stephens Statement: "A Total Fraud In Every Way"

Previously, Mr. Stephens came clean:

>Robert A.M. Stephens is, from the very beginning, 10-16-1998 to
>this date 1-4-1998, a complete and total fraud in every way.

<snip>

>Art Bell
>is to be praised for this amazing windfall of ferreting out
>charlatans and fakes in the UFO industry like me and he has
>shown in this case, "never before in my radio career have I seen
>anything like this."

<snip>

>I do thank Mr. Richard C. Hoagland and Art Bell to give me a
>opportunity to attempt foolishly to debate topics for which I
>was obviously ill prepared for and failed miserably.

Wow. Looks like 1999 is gonna be a good year after all.

Hey, maybe we can get Gary Alevy to appear on Art Bell next!

Ahhhhh. Wishful thinking...

Later,






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 5

               Re: NASA's Stephens Admits to CAUS That He is a

From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
Date: Tue, 05 Jan 1999 10:32:16 +0000
Fwd Date: Tue, 05 Jan 1999 16:22:19 -0500
Subject: Re:  NASA's Stephens Admits to CAUS That He is a


NASA's Stephens Admits to CAUS That He is a Fraud

>From: Peter Gersten <UFOLAWYER1@aol.com>
>Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 23:58:36 EST
>Fwd Date: Tue, 05 Jan 1999 09:35:32 -0500
>Subject: NASA's Stephens Admits to CAUS That He is a Fraud

Previously, Peter offered this insight into Robert Stephens:

>Mr. Stephens was able to fool us for over 80 days.  Shame on us.
>We are so eager, CAUS included, to find the truth, that we will
>embrace any 'savior' who presents himself cloaked in the garb of
>'knowing the truth.'

<snip>

>A little knowledge is a
>dangerous weapon in the wrong hands.  In Mr. Stephens' hands, we
>became willing victims for his expert swordsmanship.

<snip>

>Hopefully we can learn from the past and not continue to make
>the same mistakes.  Mr. Stephens was sent to us as an example of
>what we need to do in the future...if ever presented with
>another 'savior.'

I am stunned.

If you have been reading this list at all, I think you'll find
that virtually NO ONE took Stephens seriously, much less thought
of him as a 'savior'. His "swordsmanship", as you put it, was so
severely lacking that even most armchair ufologists didn't even
give him a second thought. The fact that _you_ were fooled
doesn't mean that the majority was also. With all due respect,
Mr. Gersten, you need to speak for yourself. The picture you
paint is one of justification for your own gullibility and you
can leave me out of it.

I see no lesson to be learned here at all. To attribute such a
thing to Stephens gives him far more credit than he deserves and
affords you too convenient a cushion for your fall from reason.

Later,






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 5

                                     Re:

From: Donnie W. Shevlin <dshevlin@primary.net>
Date: Tue, 05 Jan 1999 09:49:53 -0600
Fwd Date: Tue, 05 Jan 1999 16:24:34 -0500
Subject: Re:


>Source: http://www.borderlands.com/robertfraud.htm

>Robert A.M. Stephens Exposed as a Fraud

<snip>

>UPDATES to Follow

>January, 04 1998
>Michael Theroux
>Director
>Borderland Sciences Research Foundation - Since 1945
>http://www.borderlands.com
>theroux@borderlands.com



I applaud you Michael for your preliminary investigation. I just
don't understand why this hasn't been done up to this point.
Reveal the truth, that is all I ask. Expose those that are
corrupting the process of finding the truth is a must!

I don't want to make this seem like I am putting demands onto
anyone. I have little to no time to investigate any claims that
weave their way through this tightly woven UFO community. But
someone here, any claimed investigator of a sort, should had
already disputed this man's claims on a quick background check.

Instead I am left with weeks of reading what may turn out to be
pure boulder dash. I accepted R. Stephens for what he wrote here
after the last thirty days only because he hadn't been disputed
but by a few here on this mail list. I expected the prominent
types that are cast onto feature shows and specials to talk of
their expertise on the subject would have been all over this
man. What has happen to let this type of fraud get through?
After all the Santilli's, Cooper's and Lazar's you would think
that this sort of thing would cease.

Donald W. Shevlin






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 5

                             The Stephens Affair

From: Jan Aldrich <jan@cyberzone.net>
Date: Tue, 05 Jan 1999 11:44:36 -0800
Fwd Date: Tue, 05 Jan 1999 16:29:39 -0500
Subject: The Stephens Affair


Today, the ufo field is swept by the "revelation" that Stephens
is a fraud.  Duh!

Several people, including yours truly, pointed out that
Stephens' supposed inside information was bogus.  However,
incredibly what did we get.  "You shouldn't diss Mr. Stephens.
He has only been in the field 70 days.  Cut him some slack."

I really don't care if he had been in the field 70 minutes or 70
years, if he is spinning yarns he is disrespecting ufology.
Then, he should be disrespected by those who want reliable
information about UFOs.   He has disrespected us.

Now Gersten was Stephens' biggest promoter.  All his excuses
about how he was tricked hold no water with me.  Before the
month is out Gersten will pump out at least another 70 posts on
sensational topics in which he has done no more checking than he
did with Stephens.

For the 14 years that Barry Greenwood and Larry Fawcett ran
CAUS, they did try to apply the rules of evidence and carefully
checked and cross-checked most everything they did.  Both, and
later Greenwood, alone, made CAUS' reputation one of
scrupulously scrutinizing the facts.  Gersten ran that
reputation into the ground in less than a year.

Gersten is a lawyer, and at one time his approach to the subject
was one of high standards.  He was responsible for many
important finds.  His stature in the UFO field *was* deservedly
great.  Now every cock and bull story that comes along is out on
the CAUS network in record time.

Lawyers of all people should know how to examine evidence. Here
is a telling statement by Gersten:

"He [Stephens] represented the holy grail in our search for this
'truth' that has eluded us for over 50 years. Unfortunately, his
information was only his opinion at best and a complete
fabrication at worst.  A little knowledge is a dangerous weapon
in the wrong hands.  In Mr. Stephens' hands, we became willing
victims for his expert swordsmanship."

Here is a classic definition of a "mark."  Do I think Gersten is
a mark?  No, but he is a facilitator of marks.  Marks want to
hear these fantastic stories whether they are true or not.  They
run from one sensational claim to the next like drug addicts
looking for another fix.  If a claim is discredited, are they
more careful the next time?  Not on your life! Does that mean
that the purveyor of such frauds will suffer any loss of
credibility.  Never, in fact they will be lionized!

Should anyone stand and point out the holes in the stories; they
are shouted down.

You think not!

Well, look at the abuse Chris Rutkowski took concerning his
objections to the blind acceptance of the "Hale-Bopp object."

If people *really* wanted to learn the facts about UFOs, then
Loren Gross would be a best selling UFO author, and Art Bell
would be looking for work elsewhere.

--
Jan Aldrich
Project 1947
http://www.iufog.org/project1947/
P. O. Box 391, Canterbury, CT 06331, USA





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 5

                          High Weirdness in Montana

From: Scott LeGrand <varelse@best.com>
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 11:28:41 -0800 (PST)
Fwd Date: Tue, 05 Jan 1999 16:32:36 -0500
Subject: High Weirdness in Montana


Now that we have reached the likely end of the Robert Stephens
phenomenon, let us add in a few final tidbits to insure that no
one here is ever quite sure what or who he really was.

First stop, www.borderlands.com, where we can thank Michael
Theroux for pointing out first that Mr. Stephens has an official
association of some sort with NASA at least as an artist at:

http://www.nasa.gov/hqpao/library.html/arts/samples.html

So one can safely conclude that Mr. Stephens's statement to Jeff
Rense that "All proofs of my insidious lies from any type of
involvement with NASA, the military, the art program
information, my resume, artwork, art collections, numbers
assessment, my work of any kind thus claimed is categorical lies
in every fashion." is indeed a CATEGORICAL LIE since the artwork
is indeed genuine.

Now I know you guys have already seen this part, but now if one
checks out the macintosh-related links on this page, one will
obtain one of Mr. Stephens's email IDs, robert@digisys.net, an
ID which gave me a strange sense of Deja Vu.

Next stop, www.dejanews.com where a keyword search on
robert@digisys.net turns up some very interesting stuff from
1996!

Try
http://x4.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?AN=188428431&CONTEXT=915562946.
455475212&hitnum=6

wherein Mr. Stephens claims both prior UFO experience and
membership in SEAL Team 3 (and this post stuck in my memory
enough to trigger the above Deja Vu, weird).

or
http://x4.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?AN=185612418&CONTEXT=915563677.
455475401&hitnum=7

wherein Mr. Stephens claims to be a NASA contractor and debunks
MJ-12 a little based on its writing style.

Have a wonderfully paranoid day, guys!






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 5

                 Searching For Original Edition Of Bluebook

From: Ben Field <ben@abcfield.force9.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 19:50:13 -0000
Fwd Date: Tue, 05 Jan 1999 16:36:10 -0500
Subject: Searching For Original Edition Of Bluebook


Would anyone happen to know anyone who might carry the first
official release of the Project Bluebook of the U.S. Air Force?

I am seeking the original published edition or an exact copy
thereof for someone for the purposes of research. I need it to
show the pages with the blacked out paragraphs as it was
originally released.

Please email me at: ufobooks@abcfield.force9.co.uk if you cab
help!!!

All the best

Ben Field
BUFOD: http://www.abcfield.force9.co.uk





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 5

                       UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 4, Number 1

From: Joseph Trainor <Masinaigan@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 05 Jan 1999 19:30:51 +0000
Fwd Date: Tue, 05 Jan 1999 16:56:53 -0500
Subject: UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 4, Number 1


    UFO ROUNDUP
Volume 4, Number 1
January 5, 1999
Editor: Joseph Trainor

UFOLOGISTS LOOK INTO AIR BATTLE IN FINLAND

Ufologists in Finland are looking into a reported air battle
between a Finnish jet fighter and a squadron of five UFOs.

According to Lars Osterman, the dogfight took place on March 31,
1997 in northern Finland. Local researchers learned of it when
the pilot, whose name has been kept under wraps, phoned a radio
talk show and reportedly said he was "having trouble dealing
with" the experience.

According to Osterman, the fighter was an F-18A Hornet of the
Suomen Ilmaviomat (Finnish Air Force--J.T.), which was posted to
the Lapin Lennosto (Far North Air Department) air base at
Rovaniemi, 400 kilometers (240 miles) north of Helsinki.

The F-18 took off on "a routine 960-kilometer patrol of the
border" with Russia.  As the jet flew over the frozen tundra
southeast of Lake Inarijarvi, the pilot spotted three discoid
UFOs flying in a northeasterly direction.

Going in for a closer look, the pilot saw that "there seemed to
be five saucers, instead of just three."  He then radioed
Rovaniemi and advised them of the situation.  Lapin Lennosto
Flight Control ordered him to intercept the objects.

The five UFOs, described by the pilot as "glowing orange
objects," veered sharply to the northwest.  The F-18 pursued
them to Ivalo, a city 200 kilometers (120 miles) north of
Rovaniemi. >From there, the F-18 chased the saucers west to
Inari, 40 kilometers (24 miles) to the northwest. Then the
saucers darted eastward, high above Lake Inarijarvi.

The pilot told Flight Control that the UFOs were breaking
formation and requested permission to fire at them.  Flight
Control responded, "Permission granted.  Fire at will."

The pilot got behind one glowing saucer and lined it up with the
reticule on his windshield "heads up" display.  But instead of
picking up the "target acquisition tone" in his earphones, he
heard the raucous honk of an alarm.

All at once, the targeting computer went off-line. The "heads
up" display disappeared.  The F-18's firing system for the 20mm
cannon was also down. Instantly the pilot hit the "arming"
switch for his air-to-air missiles.  The red Malfunction light
began blinking on the dashboard.

According to Osterman, the saucers regrouped and flew away to
the east "at Mach 4 or 5.  They had an orange glow around them."

None of the F-18's flight control systems were affected, and the
pilot returned safely to Rovaniemi.

"They tested the computers for days afterward but could find
nothing wrong with them," he added.

The saucers crossed the border and were last seen heading for
Talvikula in Russia.  (Email Interview)

MORE UFO SIGHTINGS REPORTED IN ARKANSAS

On Tuesday, December 29, 1998, at midnight, a man named Cart was
entertaining 20 guests at his home near Kelhi Avenue in
Sherwood, Arkansas (population 18,893), a suburb of Little Rock
just north of the Arkansas River, when they noticed a strange
light in the sky.

"We had it in view for 20 minutes," Cart said, "All twenty of us
saw it. The UFO approached from the north, maybe at 10 degrees
above the horizon. There was a luminous aura all around the
craft.  It was a green color.  The UFO had a definite shape. We
did not hear any sound associated with this object."

"I'd estimate that it was traveling at about 120 miles per
hour," he added.  (Email Interview)

Elsewhere in Arkansas, MUFON investigator Christine Lippert has
uncovered more strange sightings around the town of Mountain
Home (population 9,029), located 146 miles (233 kilometers)
north of Little Rock.

"Andy Lewis, a pilot and former airport commissioner, told The
Bulletin he also saw the bright lights the same night (November
12, 1998) as an anonymous caller, and in the same general
area--near Valley Airport."

"Besides the two sightings of lights, Lewis claims to have seen
a gold object in the sky recently, too."

"'I was so concerned about it, I called the FAA. (Federal
Aviation Administration--J.T.),' Lewis said." He described the
UFO as "gray in color with black stripes on the underside of it.
'I'd never seen anything like that...I hope it doesn't come
back.'"

"A couple of other people in the Cotter/Glassville area claim to
have seen an object that was shaped like a barrel, while a
Mountain Home woman said she saw an object shaped like a cigar
in the sky as she was coming home from church Halloween night."
(See the Baxter Bulletin of Mountain Home, Arkansas for November
17, 1998, "Odd sightings still reported" by Bruce Roberts.  Many
thanks to Lou Farrish of UFO Newsclipping Service for forwarding
this newspaper article.)

CHRISTMAS WEEK SEES UFOs ACTIVE IN MICHIGAN

On December 24, 1998, at 9:15 p.m., Michigan ufologist Jeff
Westover was driving home from Saginaw (population 69,100).
Near the intersection of Interstate Highway I-75 and Michigan
Highway 20, Jeff "first noticed the object low in the eastern
sky (about 10 to 15 degrees above the horizon.)  I first thought
that a star or planet was rising, as it twinkled and flared
brightly in an orangeish color due to atmospheric refraction.
But I soon noticed it changing direction in relation to the
other stars above it."

He described the UFO as "a flaring amber light" that "just sat,
drifted and flared.  It did not maneuver strangely."

"I turned east on Michigan Highway 81 (ten miles south of the
interchange) to get a better look at the light," Jeff reported.
"It was now approximately 50 degrees above the eastern horizon.
The amber light quickly dimmed to a single point of light or a
very dim star.  I noticed no FAA-compliant anti-collision
strobes or wingtip lights as it flew slowly above."  (Email
Interview)

On Friday, December 25, 1998, at 7 p.m., a man visiting his
parents in Memphis, Michigan (population 1,221), a town on
Highway 19 about 30 miles (48 kilometers) northeast of Detroit,
"noticed some colored lights in the southern sky."

"There were about five different lights that would start off dim
and then get real bright, then fade off, only to reappear," the
witness reported.  "I figured they could be helicopters looking
for something, shining a spotlight.  I wanted to get a closer
look, so me and the old man took off in that direction.  We went
about 10 miles south and found an open area with no houses (to
impede their view--J.T.) to stop and look up into the night
sky."

"At first they seemed to be gone.  But then two dim lights in
the distance appeared periodically, not quite as bright as
before.  So, after a half hour out there, we headed home.  But
when we got home, they were back on the southern horizon, as
bright as ever." (Many thanks to Jeff Westover for referring
this witness statement.)

On Tuesday, December 29, 1998, at around 9:30 p.m., two
witnesses "were traveling eastbound on (Interstate Highway)
I-94."  As they passed through Sunrise Heights (population
1,400), a town "30 or 32 miles east of Kalamazoo, somewhere
between mile markers 110 and 113," they spotted "a strange craft
flying very slowly about 20 feet (6 meters) up from the ground
over the freeway."

"At first glance, we thought it was a LOW-flying airplane, but
the craft had so many yellow lights (25 or more) across in a
horizontal position.  There was a central yellow light that
appeared brighter than the rest, which were blinking in sync."

"Upon noticing this, and its shape was so odd... we determined
that the craft could not have been a helicopter or an airplane."
"Then, as we approached an area full of cell (cellular
telephone--J.T.) towers, the craft descended in a
direct-vertical motion, landing on the ground about 20 feet from
the edge of the freeway in a dark grassy area."

Slowing the car to 20 miles per hour, the pair took a closer
look at the UFO, which they described as "an upside-down
spider...The middle was ball-like (spherical)...and it had large
arms/appendages on top coming out all over.  And the
arms/appendages had holes through them in a vertical pattern.
The arms seemed to be upright, but bent out at an elbow and
appeared to have a metal end coming from each with a light at
the tip.  The craft seemed to be as large as a car but wider."

The UFO may have been seen by other motorists, they added, "We
are rueful that we didn't stop."  (Many thanks to Peter A.
Gersten of CAUS for this news story.)


BRILLIANT DISC SEEN IN HICKORY, NORTH CAROLINA

On Saturday, December 26, 1998, Paul T. and his son were driving
on Interstate Highway I-40 in Hickory, North Carolina
(population 28,301), a city 178 miles (285 kilometers) west of
Raleigh, when they saw "a strange object pass directly
overhead."

"The object looked like a shirt button at arm's length," Paul
reported, "Like a saucer on its side. The object was a brilliant
bright white.  When I first saw the object, it was almost
directly overhead. I guess about 90 degrees.  It moved westward
over a wooded area." "There was no sound whatsoever--none!"
"Although it moved westward, it made several zigzag maneuvers
while doing so," he added, "That is the only way I can describe
it.  Nothing can move that way."  (Email Interview)


PULSATING UFO SIGHTED IN WESTERN AUSTRALIA

On Thursday, December 24, 1998, at 7:50 p.m., a UFO "with
pulsating red, green and white lights was zigzagging through the
northern Goldfields sky" at Murrin Murrin, Western Australia.

Security personnel at the Murrin Murrin mine "watched the light
for about a half hour on Christmas Eve."

"The security officers said in their report that the star began
to pulsate red and green and white and travelling up and down in
jerking movements, with the red and green lights seeming more
round. It then moved lower and zigzagged from side to side
before emitting a burst of white light and disappearing below
the tree line."  (See the Western Australian of Perth, W.A. for
December 28, 1998, "Flashing light heralds Santa."  Many thanks
to Patricia Ziegler for this newspaper article.)


RETIRED NURSE PHOTOGRAPHS UFO IN TOOWONG, QUEENSLAND

On November 6, 1998, retired nurse Madeleine Patterson, 63, had
a sudden strange urge to go outdoors and snap a photograph.
Grabbing her camera, she stepped out onto the backstairs of her
home in Toowong, Queensland, Australia and tapped the shutter.

When the film was developed, she found the image of a silver
disc UFO in the photo.

"I didn't see the UFO at all," Mrs. Patterson said, "What I had
was a feeling there might be something strange to photograph.
It's something like when people get a feeling there's going to
be a storm."

"Retired nurse Mrs. Patterson, who is also a naturopath and
nutritionist, has added the photograph to her growing collection
of photographs of cross formations and angels.  It includes six
photographs of UFOs."

"'These things are there for everyone to see.  All my life I've
been interested in things that are beyond physical and material
spheres, and I watch these things closely.'"

Mrs. Patterson also believes that ETs exist. She said,
"Otherwise, we'd be like cave people, thinking we are the only
people in the universe." (See Australia's Sunday Mail for
January 3, 1999, "The truth is out there.  So are the UFOs" by
Elissa Lawrence, page 86.  Many thanks to Diane Harrison for
this newspaper article.)


TWO UFOs PUT ON DISPLAY IN MASSACHUSETTS

On December 10, 1998, at 9 p.m., a witness near Route 44 in
Middleboro, Massachusetts (population 6,837), a town about 43
miles (69 kilometers) south of Boston, "watched a strange,
brightly-lit craft" in the southern sky.

"The craft had numerous red, green and white lights.  As the
witnesses watched, it split into two UFOs."

The two UFOs then performed a series of dazzling aerobatic
maneuvers over Assawompsett Pond, a large glaial like just south
of Middleboro.  "The two crafts flew geometric patterns at high
speed around the sky." after which "the two UFOs combined into
one and shortly thereafter disappeared."

A short while later, the witness reported, a few jets, which he
believed to be U.S. Air Force jet interceptors, flew over
Middleboro.  (See Filer's Files #52 for 1998.  Many thanks to
George A. Filer, Eastern director of MUFON, for allowing UFO
Roundup to use this report.)


PRE-COLUMBIAN STONE CALENDAR FOUND IN MIAMI

Archaeologists believe they have discovered a 4,000-year-old
calendar stone used by the Tequesta people, an indigenous Native
American tribe who lived in Miami, Florida millenia ago.

Planets such as Mars, Venus, Jupiter and Saturn, plus familiar
constellations, are visible on the stone, which was discovered
at a construction site on Bricknell Key back in August 1998.

The stone measures 38 feet (11 meters) in diameter and "is
pockmarked with small dents and holes."

"It's a striking find.  The holes could have been used to
measure time, the sun, the stars," said Miami archaeologist Paul
George.  "It shows tremendous intelligence on their part,
carving something like this using rudimentary tools."

"The Tequesta disappeared shortly after Spanish explorer Ponce
de Leon arrived in Florida in 1513, introducing European
diseases and war." (See the Miami Herald for December 28, 1998.
Many thanks to "Colonel Churchward" for the newspaper article.)

(Editor's Comment: So much for the "primitive Tequesta shell
fishermen" living on the shores of the Miami River!  The
Tequesta artifact bears a strong resemblance to the Mayan
calendar stones.  Which is no surprise, when you consider that
southern Florida is only 300 miles (480 kilometers) north of the
Mayan homeland in Mexico's Yucatan Peninsula.)


MARS POLAR LANDER HAS SUCCESSFUL LAUNCH

Despite a temporary delay due to rainy weather, NASA's Mars
Polar Lander lifted off from Cape Canaveral on Sunday, January
3, 1999, heading for the Antarctic region of the planet Mars.

The Mars Polar Lander (MPL) is the second of NASA's New
Millenium space probes.  MPL's sister spacecraft, the Mars
Climate Orbiter, blasted off in early December 1998.

"NASA's Mars Polar Lander is bound for the fringes of Mars's
south polar cap, the farthest south any spacecraft has ventured
on the Red Planet. It's due to arrive in December (1999) when
it's late spring and the sun never sets on Mars," i.e. the
Martian south pole.

"The Polar Lander's goal is to find ice in the Martian soil.
Where there's water, NASA's top space scientist says, there
could be life." "'We have a lot of reason to believe there's
water on Mars in the form of ice," (NASA Space Sciences Division
boss Ed) Weiler says, "But until you actually land there and
find it and measure it, you can't say for sure.  That's one
thing I think this mission will demonstrate.'"

"The Polar Lander is three-and-a-half feet (1 meter) tall and 12
feet (3.7 meters) wide.  It has three legs as well as a
six-and-a-half foot (2 meter) robot arm with a scoop at the end
to scrape beneath the Martian surface.  The collected dirt will
be heated, allowing any water present to vaporize and be
detected by a laser."

"The Polar Lander is also equipped with a pair of probes that
will peel away minutes before touchdown and slam into the
Martian surface at 400 to 500 miles per hour, about 60 miles
from the lander."

"Like the lander, the twin probes will hunt for water but at a
much greater depth.  They could penetrate as deep as three feet.
The question is whether they will survive the impact and radio
back data."  (See USA Today for January 4, 1999, "Mission
searches for water on Mars," by Marcia Dunn, Associated Press,
page 4A.)


from the UFO Files...

1956: TWO UFOs APPEAR OVER ANTARCTICA

On January 8, 1956, at the height of the Antarctic summer, four
scientists from Chile were camped out on the icecap of the
Weddell Sea, performing weather experiments as part of the
International Geophysical Year.

The weather was clear, with a blue sky and the sun low on the
horizon.  "One man stepped outside and noticed 'two metallic
cigar-shaped objects in a vertical position, perfectly still and
silent and flashing vividly the reflected rays of the sun.'"

"One of the objects was almost at the mid-heaven, and the other
at a distance of some 30 degrees from the first...the things
looked utterly solid, with smooth, polished seemingly metallic
surfaces.  He called a second man to come look at the
'spindles.'"

"Then they moved to another vantage point about 100 yards away
to see if some sort of atmospheric optical effect could be
causing them; they did not change appearance."

"Upon returning to their tent area, two more men also saw the
objects.  The two objects remained motionless until 2100 hours
(9 p.m.) when the uppermost object tilted into horizontal
position and started to brighten and emit several colors.  Then
it began to move and executed a number of maneuvers (90 degree
turns, zigzag flight, instantaneous starts and stops, etc.)
Then it came to a stop and hovered again."

"The second object then began to fly around for three minutes
like the first object had just finished doing, and then it too
stopped and hovered."

"The two objects remained motionless throughout that day and
through the twilight that was to be their nighttime.  The four
men were afraid, yet nothing happened.  Then, late in the
afternoon of the second day (i.e. January 9, 1956--J.T.) clouds
approached, the altitude of which were known approximately. And
using a theodolite, the altitude of the objects was determined
to be about 24,000 feet (7,275 meters) with each cigar about 450
feet long and 75 feet in diameter."

"One of the men aimed a polarized spotlight at one of the
objects which unexpectedly flashed a bright light in return and
descended in altitude."

"After a 'long pause,' it rose again to its original position
and stopped.  Then it conducted 'another fantastic sky dance.'
Its velocity was measured at 40,000 kilometers per hour (24,000
miles per hour) starting from a dead stop.  The objects
eventually disappeared from view because of the clouds that came
in."  (See Flying Saucer Review volume 14, number 3, March-April
1968 issue, article by Gordon Creighton, page 20.  See also
PROJECT DELTA: A STUDY OF MULTIPLE UFO by Richard F. Haines,
L.D.A. Press, Los Altos, California, 1994, pages 96 and 97.)


WELCOME TO UFO ROUNDUP

We're off and running for Year Four of our weekly online
newsletter.  And we have some changes at the webpage.

John Hayes has updated the UFO Roundup articles list.  He
installed active links to all of the articles, allowing readers
to go directly to the story they want.  Previously, the link
would drop you off at the beginning of the issue, and you would
have to scroll down to find the article.  John completed this
backbreaking redesign for all 146 issues at the webpage archive.
Let's all give him a round of much-appreciated applause.

Now, to find the article you want, go to this
URL...http://ufoinfo.com/roundup/articles.  And enjoy some great
ufological reading. To readers just joining us, UFO Roundup
welcomes emailed reports.  Send them to us at
Masinaigan@aol.com.  If you are scanning or quoting from a
newspaper article, please be sure to list the name of the
newspaper, the city where it was published, and the date of
issue in which the UFO story appeared. We welcome UFO news
clippings, as well. Please feel free to mail those to our
snail-mail address: UFO Roundup, Box 16, 126 Toll Gate Road,
Warwick, Rhode Island, USA 02886

FUN UFO WEBSITES: UFO Folklore has a photo of that bright UFO
seen over Lago de Chapala in Jalisco state, Mexico last week.
You'll find it at this URL:

http://www.qtm.net/~geibdan/framesmst.html

Start the New Year off right with a trip to our parent site--UFO
INFO.  Get the latest in news, photos, features and links at
this site, which can be accessed at http://ufoinfo.com Back
issues of UFO Roundup can be read and downloaded at the webpage.
Feel free to drop in at http://ufoinfo.com/roundup

Sixty-four years ago, on January 8, 1935, Elvis Aaron Presley
was born in Tupelo, Mississippi. The pop singer popularly known
as "the King" died at his home, Graceland, in Memphis, Tennessee
on August 17, 1977.  Nine years afterward--to the very
day--August 17, 1986, Elvis was seen standing in the checkout
line at a Burger King in Kalamazoo, Michigan.  This was the
first in an ongoing series of "Elvis sightings" that have
continued to the present day.

We'll be back next week with more saucer news from around the
planet, brought to you by "the paper that goes home--UFO
Roundup."  See you then.

UFO ROUNDUP: Copyright 1999 by Masinaigan Productions, all
rights reserved.  Readers may post news items from UFO Roundup
on their websites or in newsgroups provided that they credit the
newsletter and its editor by name and list the date of issue in
which the item first appeared.





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 5

                             Re: Hynek & Michel

From: Alain Stauffer <astauffer@infomaniak.ch>
Date: Tue, 05 Jan 1999 22:04:08 +0100
Fwd Date: Tue, 05 Jan 1999 17:09:07 -0500
Subject: Re: Hynek & Michel


Greetings

>Date: Mon, 04 Jan 1999 13:15:32 -0800
>From: Jan Aldrich <jan@cyberzone.net
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Hynek and Michel

>Hynek's visit with Michel probably took place in 1958 or
>1959 after the Michel's book had been translated into
>English by CSI-NY.

According to Jacques Vallee's journal (Forbidden Science, The
Vallee Living Trust Ed., 1992), Hynek came in Paris in 1958 -
the January 21, 1962 notice says "four years ago" - to meet with
Michel and Guerin (the French astronomer). Vallee suggests that
Hynek travelled with Gerard de Vaucouleurs (another French
astronomer established in Texas) but this is not clearly stated.
When Michel showed Hynek his dossiers, the latter had this funny
comment: "At least YOU know what happened!" Hynek had another
opportunity to spend some days in Paris in March 1968, on his
way back from Prague - but did not see Aime Michel during this
stay. (Same source).

Alain Stauffer
G.R.E.P.I.
http://www.ovni.ch





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 5

                              Re: Alien Images

From: Ralf Zeigermann <kag15@dial.pipex.com>
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 22:00:58 +0100
Fwd Date: Tue, 05 Jan 1999 17:38:34 -0500
Subject: Re: Alien Images


>From: John Ratcliff <johnr@simutronics.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Alien Images
>Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 16:17:07 -0600

John,

This is a shame! They are fantastic!

And you have 'forgotten' the designer's name?

Tsk...






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 5

               Re: NASA's Stephens Admits to CAUS That He is a

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
Date: Tue, 05 Jan 99 16:59:37 PST
Fwd Date: Tue, 05 Jan 1999 17:52:33 -0500
Subject: Re: NASA's Stephens Admits to CAUS That He is a


>From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
>Date: Tue, 05 Jan 1999 10:32:16 +0000
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: NASA's Stephens Admits to CAUS That He is a Fraud

>NASA's Stephens Admits to CAUS That He is a Fraud

>>From: Peter Gersten <UFOLAWYER1@aol.com>
>>Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 23:58:36 EST
>>Fwd Date: Tue, 05 Jan 1999 09:35:32 -0500
>>Subject: NASA's Stephens Admits to CAUS That He is a Fraud

>Previously, Peter offered this insight into Robert Stephens:

>>Mr. Stephens was able to fool us for over 80 days.  Shame on us.
>>We are so eager, CAUS included, to find the truth, that we will
>>embrace any 'savior' who presents himself cloaked in the garb of
>>'knowing the truth.'

>>Hopefully we can learn from the past and not continue to make
>>the same mistakes.  Mr. Stephens was sent to us as an example of
>>what we need to do in the future...if ever presented with
>>another 'savior.'

>I am stunned.

>If you have been reading this list at all, I think you'll find
>that virtually NO ONE took Stephens seriously, much less thought
>of him as a 'savior'. His "swordsmanship", as you put it, was so
>severely lacking that even most armchair ufologists didn't even
>give him a second thought. The fact that _you_ were fooled
>doesn't mean that the majority was also. With all due respect,
>Mr. Gersten, you need to speak for yourself. The picture you
>paint is one of justification for your own gullibility and you
>can leave me out of it.

>I see no lesson to be learned here at all. To attribute such a
>thing to Stephens gives him far more credit than he deserves and
>affords you too convenient a cushion for your fall from reason.

Roger,

Very well said. I saw little evidence on this list that
Stephens was regarded as anything other than yet one more
annoying crackpot/bullshitter. It's his own soul, not ours,
that Peter Gersten ought to be examining closely.

Jerry Clark





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 6

                               'Junk' Or What?

From: Mikko Viitaniemi <ee8mpv@bath.ac.uk>
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 22:17:31 +0000 (BST)
Fwd Date: Wed, 06 Jan 1999 09:50:39 -0500
Subject: 'Junk' Or What?


Hello everyone,

I'm new to this List having been reading it for a month or so
now. I'm a Finnish but right now living in the UK because of
studies.

I've been interested in this field almost since my childhood
because of my own experiences. And also because I know quite few
people that have also experiences of UFOs. I'm not going to
discuss those in this mail, but since I noticed that
there's seem to be quite a few professionals following this
List, somebody might be able to help me.

This might not have anything to do with any extra-terrestial
objects, but I just would like to know little bit more about
this.

Since I'm couple of thousands of kms from home I have to rely on
my memory on this. i.e. information is not exact. But anyway,
I'm not trying to do science here. Ok here we go..

Basicly I'm after the origin of this object.

If I remember correctly this happened sometime during 70's
(maybe before I was born, heh). This I have to confirm since I
wasn't witnessing this myself.

Approx. 300m from my home is an elementary school.

One winter morning, the guy who's taking care of the buildings
and the yards, found something quite interesting quite close to
the school building. There was a heavy snow layer on the ground
and this thing had melted all the snow around it. And the
remaining snow around was colored yellowish. Must have been
quite hot if you ask me.

This object consists (to my recollection) of 3X4 pieces of
metallic ingot-shaped pieces. Each piece has dimension apx.
length 7cm, width 3cm, height 2cm. These are not exact. This
material is very heavy and I think one piece must weight 1kg
[2.2lbs] at least. This I haven't measured.

To me the material resembles quite clearly lead. The bottom of
the object is even and contained some symbols and numbers. at
least one symbol I remember is a three circles grouped somehow
that they cross each others. I can't remember very clearly but
I'm almost certain that number 3 was also in the bottom. These
number(s) and symbols were pressed to the bottom of the object
and were not found elsewhere.

The sad thing is that these ingots were separated by the finder
because of their weight and were used to keep his Xmas tree
standing.

Anyway I am able to get more precise information, but if someone
already knows what the origin might be could mail it to me or to
the list.

Very clearly object had arrived through aerial route.

I'm not sure how heavy components are used in the (or were used)
stuff we're shooting to the sky. Just the weight of the object
makes me wonder. Because of the heat I suspect it's just space
junk, but because it is (or was) so nicely intact, somehow I
might be able to find out it's origin.

I still have couple of the separated ingots. Any ideas and/or
questions are welcome.


   ......     ......     ......     ......
  ;;;;;;;;   ;;;;;;;;   ;;;;;;;;   ;;;;;;;;
 ;;;;;;;;;; ;;;;;;;;;; ;;;;;;;;;; ;;;;;;;;;;
 ;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;   Side views to give a better
                                               picture.

  ................    ..................    ..................
 ;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;  ;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;  ;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;
;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;
;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;

That's it, I'm sure I'm forgetting many things but that's best I
can do at the moment.. Keep up the good list mates, it is
interesting to follow. Just waste less energy to argue who's pro
and who's not :) Thanks for taking the time to read this,
apologies for my english. Keep up the good work!

Best wishes,

Mikko Viitaniemi
email ee8mpv@bath.ac.uk





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 6

                  {98} part 1 - United Kingdom UFO Network

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 23:25:49 -0000
Fwd Date: Wed, 06 Jan 1999 10:33:13 -0500
Subject: {98} part 1 - United Kingdom UFO Network

From: United Kingdom UFO Network <ufo@holodeck.demon.co.uk>
Subject: {98} part 1 - United Kingdom UFO Network
To: UFO@MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU

        ______ _______ ______
------ /  /  //  ____//     /---------------------------------------
 U K  /  /  //  ___/ /  /  /                        5th January 1999
     /  /  //  /    /  /  /  N E T W O R K         part 1 - Issue 98
--- (_____//__/    (_____/------------------------------------------

The United Kingdom UFO Network - a free electronic magazine with
subscribers in 58 countries.

This issue comes in 3 parts. If any part is missing please mail:
ufo@holodeck.demon.co.uk giving the issue number. The issue will be
reposted to you. Please put the details as below in the subject
section e.g.  Repost {98} part 1, part 2 or part 3.

In this issue:

Editorial
---------

Free to you customised MIRC

Special Guest log
-----------------

Joyce L. Murphy - Beyond Boundaries

United Kingdom News
-------------------

[UK 1] Tony Dodd alive and well
[UK 2] Matthew Williams statement of activities
[UK 3] Sighting late 1950's Bexhill on Sea, Sussex
[UK 4] British TV viewers in for a treat
[UK 5] Reports of UFOs vanish mysteriously into space
[UK 6] UFO Call for police officers
[UK 7] Space holidays thought likely by 2010
[UK 8] Puzzle over alien 'discovery'
[UK 9] Alien hoax dismays scientists
[UK 10] Graham W. Birdsall
[UK 11] X-Files riddle of whine that goes to woman's heads

World News
----------

[W 1] Air Force Pilot Plays Chase with UFO
[W 2] Village officials attempted to postpone Halloween
[W 3] Earth has heart of solid iron
[W 4] Astronauts cross new threshold
[W 5] Art Bell
[W 6] The nations of the world will have to unite
[W 7] Diplomatic silence on aliens

Book serialisation
------------------

A FEARFUL SYMMETRY

A TRUE STORY OF ALIEN INTRUSION INTO HUMAN LIVES

By D. Lynne Bishop

Advertisement
-------------

The UFO Phenomenon CD Rom

Statement, Subscription Information, IRC connecting
---------------------------------------------------

How, where, and maybe even why, to find us - and what to do when you
get there.

----------===============******************===============----------

Editorial
---------

Welcome to the first issue of 1999. I wonder just what this year has
in store for us. Several unnerving things have come to light over
this past month. An incite is given by Graham Birdsall in his UFO
Magazine editorial (reprinted below). A disturbing article 'Dawn Of A
New Age?' delves deeper into this and can be read in the
January/February issue of UFO Magazine (UK).

How many of you last year (98) filled in the online form at Nasa's
web site for your name and or others to be placed on a CD which would
go with the Mars Polar Lander. Nasa were after 1,000,000 names to be
placed on the CD which would journey with the Polar Lander.

The rocket successfully lifted off on Sunday 3rd January and is due
to arrive at Mars in December this year. The lander is designed to
work in tandem with its sister ship, the Mars Climate Orbiter,
launched three weeks ago. Further information can be found further
into the e-zine.

Downloads:

Available for download from the below urls is a scanned image of the
Roswell Daily Record of 4th July 1947 - 'RAAF Captures Flying
Saucer'. The file is a graphic image which can be zoomed into so that
all of the text on the front page can be read.

There are two file formats - gif & xif. Gif images are viewable in
most art type programs. The xif image is viewable by anyone who has
the Pagis Scanworks software or their freeware viewer. The beauty of
the xif format is that the file size is much smaller than normal
picture formats such as gif, jpg, bmp etc and there is no loss of
quality. In future any pictures made available by uk.ufo.nw will be
available in both the xif and one other format.

If you would like to download the xif Pagis viewer (freeware) at
1.4Mb point your browser to:

http://ukufonw.future.easyspace.com/downloads/xif-viewer.exe

The Roswell Daily Record in xif format at 277Kb:

http://ukufonw.future.easyspace.com/downloads/roswell-daily-record.xif

The Roswell Daily Record in gif format at 468Kb:

http://ukufonw.future.easyspace.com/downloads/roswell-daily-record.zip

IRC Guest Log
=============

Joyce L. Murphy
Special guest on UK.UFO.NW - IRC - #UFO channel

The below text is a log of the United Kingdom UFO Network -IRC-
(internet relay chat) meeting held on Saturday 12th December 1998.
Joyce Murphy kindly gave up a few hours of her time to answer
questions from visitors to our dedicated UFO channel.

Names within the < > symbols e.g. <Nesssus> are the nick names of the
person/s asking the questions/s. Where you see <Joyce> is the start
of Joyce Murphy's reply.

Credits:

Our thanks to Dave_UFO for setting up the meeting with Joyce.
Our thanks to Crow & Raine for moderating the meeting.
Our thanks also to the many, many people who joined the channel.

Short - BIOGRAPHY - Joyce L. Murphy

Joyce L. Murphy, president and founder of Beyond Boundaries UFO / ET / Paranorma
l
Research Organization, is now regarded as being an excellent source of internati
onal
information on current phenomenon. She organizes and leads expeditions all over
the
world where current UFO / ET / Paranormal events are occurring, traveling with a
primary team of qualified scientific investigators to gather the available data
and
networking closely with local village researchers in acquiring the information
directly from the sources. These unique and exclusive research findings are shar
ed
with the interested world via the Beyond Boundaries newsletter and website. Sinc
e the
Beyond Boundaries headquarters has become a huge databank of such information, m
uch of
it being tangible evidence such as photos and videotapes, TV and movie interests
frequently contact this organization for their unique show material.

Joyce and her research expeditions have been the subject of several TV programs,
 film
documentaries, magazine articles, and Joyce is known as the catalyst around the
globe
by professionals in the industry wanting to connect with the grassroots sources
of
this pertinent and timely information. The most recent film project was the Stra
nge
Universe Mex Files which included a fantastic undeniable documented sighting nea
r Mt.
Popocatepetl, in central Mexico, and yielded 10 valuable segments for this telev
ision
series.

Joyce and the Beyond Boundaries expedition teams have worked in the field with s
uch
well known UFOlogists as George Knapp, Linda Moulton Howe, Robert Dean, Colin An
drews,
and Marc Davenport in producing conference lecture material and film documentari
es.
The Tokyo Borderland magazine commissioned her recently for a series of articles
sending a team of 6 journalists to travel with her throughout the Caribbean. A g
roup
of Australian physicians recently completed such an expedition with Joyce to unc
over
stories for their contactee work in Mexico.

Joyce serves as roving correspondent for the Sightings on the Radio Show with Je
ff
Rense and has produced many 3 hour radio shows broadcast live from wherever her
expeditions have traveled throughout the world. The guest of several TV shows in
 many
countries, subject of major news articles, subject of private consultation by se
nators
wanting to know more about the subject, and guest of countless radio talk shows
Joyce
is not a novice to what the news and entertainment media want from her expeditio
ns.

Joyce Murphy's educational and professional background includes two bachelor of
science degrees, one in mathematics, which provided the interest which began her
career in researching the fractal geometries of the English crop formations seve
ral
years ago. She was a public school teacher and most recently owned a travel agen
cy
which afforded her even greater opportunities to travel to the four corners of t
he
globe, traveling with such notables as Lawrence Blair of the Ring of Fire Series
 in
the Indonesian islands, Australia, and New Guinea. Any paranormal subject has be
en
covered in great depth by one expedition or another led by Joyce.

Married with three grown sons and six grandchildren, Joyce and her husband Pike
live
in a rural wilderness in Texas when not traveling on international expeditions o
r out
presenting the Beyond Boundaries roadshow, comprehensive of all findings, to
interested audiences throughout the United States.
Joyce now is a fulltime investigator of the phenomenon, manages an international
database, publishes an award winning newsletter, and leads several expeditions p
er
year on meaningful quests worldwide.

http://www.beyondboundaries.org
jmurphy@beyondboundaries.org
tel / fax: 817-573-1576

---

Session Start: Sat Dec 12 23:02:02 1998

<Dave_UFO> Raine it's over to you.

<Raine> If you have a question for Joyce please /msg raine or crow and NOT Joyce
,
thanks!

<Raine> Joyce is there anything you would like to tell us before we start with t
he
questions?

<Joyce> First of all let me tell you that I probably have very few answers to an
y of
the bigger questions - if any - I always have more questions than I started out
with
the more that I learn about this crazy subject. I have not had any experiences o
f my
own to speak of other than the wonderful adventures we always seem to have on th
ese
expeditions - I know a little bit about a whole lot but probably not a lot about
 any
one aspect of this subject

<Raine> <CR0W> Hello Joyce, can you tell us what your perseption is of crop
formations, since you last visited the U.K.?

<Raine> Joyce can you type JM when you are ready for the next question please, t
hanks.

<Joyce> Okay - my last expeditions to the crop formations in Wiltshire was July
and
early Aug of '98 - I was very disappointed to learn that the stupid hoaxing is s
till
going on - Probably my greatest learning came from a couple of very ordinary loc
al
people - who told me they were never urged by inner guidance or self to visit th
e
hoaxed formations - and they were in the last one we visited near Swindon - was
the
one that ilyes described as a trumpet - do not have the

<Joyce> JM

<Raine> Joyce can you type your answers in smaller chunks at a time please as th
is
program can only hold small amounts in the buffer

<Raine> <Carnado> Joyce, what is the latest of the Tian-Shan (Shaitan Mazar) 91
Ufo
Crash story?

<Joyce> sorry - my first chat session JM

<Raine> we understand, no worries :)

<Joyce> The latest of the Tian-Shan story - sorry I don't seem to know what your
 are
talking about on this case - JM

<Raine> <Dave_UFO> Joyce have you any knowledge of the 'Rods' that have been spo
ken
about recently filmed by a team of parachutists decending into a deep gauge in M
exico.

<Joyce> No - not on this particular rods story - I know Becky Escamilla of Midwa
y NM
who films rods all the time there - JM

<CR0W> If you have a question for Joyce please /msg raine or /msg cr0w with them
.

<Raine> <CR0W> Joyce can you tell us what is the most credible of all cases you
have
come across and why ?

<Joyce> The dimensional portal story near Fortaleza Brasil - saw footage on that
 case
that showed the actual portal JM

<Raine> <stu7> Joyce... how many strange sites have you visited this season ? Al
l
together, since you started ?

<Joyce> Probably 25 to 30 different areas of the world since I started doing
cropcircles expeditions about 7 yrs ago JM

<Raine> <CR0W> Joyce could you give some more details on the dimensional portal
story
please.

<Joyce> A mathematics professor and his brother were given telepathic communicat
ion to
go to a rural village about 200 km from their home -

<Joyce> they were told they would see a portal but when they got there everyone
was
seeing BVM apparitions - 4000 people there JM

<Raine> <Dave_UFO> What can you tell us of the rods that Becky Escamilla of Midw
ay
films. Sounds very interesting.

<Joyce> The rods are long things that seem to always be shooting across the sky
in
front of their home - they think they could be some sort of dimensional animals
JM

<Raine> <RavNmaD> Joyce, is the video of the protal available anywhere?
<Joyce> The video belongs to the math professor - He wants full credit for the
discovery but I think would share it if urged - I will be happy to put you in to
uch
with him privately JM

<Raine> <Dave_UFO> How much time during a year do you spend travelling around?

<Joyce> Right now we are averaging one expedition almost per month - and in betw
een I
travel around the U.S. with the slide presentation - expeditions are internation
al JM

<Raine> <stu7> Joyce... has your group ever visited the peruvian(?) stargate ?

<Joyce> No - have been to Peru on a spiritual quest - but not for UFOs or to vis
it the
stargate - have heard of it JM

<Raine> <I-Knight> Joyce, I saw a video recently on George Knapp's "Russian UFO
Files". He seems to be very excited about this new source of information. Were y
ou
involved in the visit to Russia and can you give us any further information on t
he
latest developments?

<Joyce> I have not been involved with George on his Russia investigation - He jo
ined
one of my early circles expeditions and did a documentary - know very little abo
ut
Russia except what I heard from Valery Uvarov JM

<Raine> <Dave_UFO> Joyce this question is asked of every guest and you are no
exception I'm afraid. Have you ever been approached in way and told not to conti
nue
your investigations?

<CR0W> If you have a question for Joyce please /msg raine or /msg cr0w with them
.

<Joyce> No - Have had Pentagon officials on my expeditions, CIA who fully admit
their
professions, people involved with Rockefeller, NIDS, and those are just the ones
 I
know about - No threats or "advise" from anyone JM

<Raine> <CR0W> Joyce if anyone here wanted to join you on an expedition what wou
ld
they have to do?

<Joyce> Contact Beyond Boundaries, follow the procedure for paying their expense
s -
all expeditions are non profit - and then convince me they have proper interest
and
prerequisites for the subjects covered JM

<Raine> <Dave_UFO> What is the most exciting information that has come your way
recently?

<Joyce> That's a hard one - I am just like a fly on the wall taking in everythin
g that
goes one around me - but in this subject my more intriguing interests are dimens
ional
portals - probably meeting and visiting with 3 of the Montauk boys recently - JM

<Raine> <mawster> have you ever researched the use of ayahuasca among the native
 south
american tribes, and/or their claims of having contact with extra
terrestrial/dimensional entities?
<Joyce> I assume you mean the shaman's drug - No - but if you will go to Jan 30t
h
broadcast in Sightings archives for Belem Brasil you will find a very interestin
g
story from a physicist we interviewed about his work in the Amazon JM

<Raine> <Dave_UFO> Joyce you run your own news letter via e-mail. Would you like
 to
give details of how it can be obtained.

<Joyce> We are a membership organization - there is a form on our website - memb
ership
gets you the 28 pg newsletter 6 x per yr JM

<Raine> <CR0W> What have you been working on most recently anything you can tell
 us at
this stage.

<Joyce> Right now I am hard at work on our Australia - New Zealand - Tasmania
expedition Jan 14th as well as our expeditions into the Basque country of Spain
-
making contact with 100's of local people JM

<Raine> <jez_ufo> Joyce, have you had a chance to visit Sedona, Arizona to exami
ne the
electromagnetic disturbances there, and if so, what were your conclusions?

<Joyce> Yes - several times - Found a lot of people who feel and see things - Bu
t as
for me, I guess I am not sensitive enough - visited all the vortices etc and fel
t
nothing - expensive place to visit JM

<Raine> <Dave_UFO> Joyce do you have any overall feelings for the future of ufol
ogy
and all it encompasses.

<Joyce> I keep saying if just one little incident involving ETs would take place
 that
could not be denied as real in our 3D world then we are all going to be swamped
for
information we have gathered - until then we are just a tiny little study group
in a
huge world JM

<Raine> <Nesssus> Hi Joyce, my question for ou is, Who was the most "interesting
"
person that you have interviewed so far? And in what way was they the most inter
esting?

<CR0W> If you have a question for Joyce please /msg raine or /msg cr0w with them
.

<Joyce> Oh Gee - it would be some little nobody way out in some tiny little jung
le
somewhere - can name many - but when you are face to face with a person who has
just
met with an "angel" or "ET" and possibly is telling the very recent story for th
e
first time to an outsider - and looks you right in the eye - that is impressive
to me -
 JM

<Raine> <yush> a question, what is the truth in the north pole discovery or the
link
between greenhouse gases to "take control"

<Joyce> I have very little information on that situation - but just heard on TV
a
couple of days ago that the head of the biggest coal fired polluter in the world
 says
that the greenhouse effect is good for the world - will help us grow bigger and
better
jungles - isn't that something - He thinks he is helping the planet JM

<Raine> <I-Knight> Have you investigated the Mexico Sightings and if so what can
 you
tell us about your investigations?
<Joyce> I was told about two days after that film was made public to be very car
eful -
not to make any statement on belief or doubt as to the authenticity of those pic
s -
but that incident is not what is important in Mexico - have more to tell you JM

<Raine> <Benat2> How much is membership and whats your url? what got you involve
d in
this?

<Joyce> http://www.beyondboundaries.org $30 per yr JM

<Raine> <^Darren> Joyce, have you been following the obelisk approaching from sp
ace
and was supposed to land in Arizona a few days ago? What are your thoughts?

<Joyce> Yes - I have collected all info I could find on the EQ Pegasi - I am sta
ying
totally open on this subject - would like to say I believe it all to be very pos
sible -
 JM

<Raine> <I-Knight> You mentioned Montauk... What do you think of the writing of
Preston Nichols and Peter Moon?

<Joyce> I bought the 3 books - dusted them a few times - then after my recent tr
ip to
Long Island I read them as quickly as possible - I have several other experience
s that
seem to support their writings JM

<Raine> <Nesssus> hi again Joyce, who would you like to interview that you have'
nt had
the chance to so far?

-> *k9* topic #ufo Joyce Murphy http://www.beyondboundaries.org channel #ufo2 op
en for
unmoderated discussion. /msg raine or cr0w your questions.

<Joyce> I want to go back to the Western Samoan island of Savaii - to the buried
pyramid, to the cave of the Little People - and to the cradle of Polynesia which
 is
almost totally unknown to UFOlogists - lots happening there JM

*** K9 changes topic to 'Joyce Murphy http://www.beyondboundaries.org channel #u
fo2
open for unmoderated discussion. /msg raine or cr0w your questions._'

<Raine> <^Darren> Joyce, do you think we are heading towards a major ufo
contact/landing in the next year or two considering the accelerating increase in
sightings?

<Joyce> Yes - I will certainly go out a big limb to say Yes - soon - something i
s
going to happen on these lines - I have talked with many people in many countrie
s who
claim they have received prophecies by different means - Contact is going to be
soon,
they say JM

<Raine> <I-Knight> What are the other experiences that support the Montauk writi
ngs?

<Joyce> Who is really running the world - and behind the Montauk project - which
 they
say is still alive and well - I had just visited with people in Pennsylvania who
 gave
me stories and supporting evidence - too long to share here - would be willing t
o sent
reprints of past stories written on this subject JM

<Raine> <stu7> Joyce... so, has your group ever visited Mexico, to see the mass
sightings ?

<Joyce> Yes - filmed our own sighting - a contactee told us her friends would co
me by
the volcano to say hello - they did - in a giant barbell shaped craft about 3 mi
les up
- filmed at precisely the time expected - JM

<Raine> <Nesssus> joyce do you think that the Americn government will ever come
clean
on the issue of UFO and etc?

<Joyce> Oh, I think probably more and more info will be made public - but that i
s all
old stuff - what we are interested in is current phenomenon that is happening ri
ght
now - unpublished unreported unembellished true accounts JM

<Raine> <^Darren> Joyce, do you think the increase in solar flare activity over
the
past year (ish) is generating the energy to facilitate the opening of dimensiona
l
portals and that's why we are seeing more and more craft/beings?

<Joyce> Very possibly so - There are portals opening everywhere - just ran right
 into
one in Connecticut the other day - a voice from within the area said hello to me
 - a
long story - a ring of light appeared when the portal opened - Now NSA is
headquartered right next door in a residential neighborhood? JM

<Raine> <Dave_UFO> You obviously gather a tremendous amount of information on yo
ur
travels. How do you store it?

<Joyce> There are two books being written right now - about me and Beyond Bounda
ries -
by a PhD Psychologist - in one of the books will be every story we have ever gat
hered
on UFO ET Paranormal Spiritual phenomenon - also for the past two years newslett
er
reports all -JM

<Raine> <I-Knight> Over the last few years ther has been a big increase in repor
ted
daylight UFO sightings. Do you think this is indicative that ET's are possibly
intending to make more open contact with humanity in the near future?

<Joyce> I have heard people that I never would have thought say things lately ab
out
weird dreams, lucid dreams, things that happened to them that could now have bee
n a
dream, people reaching out to find out what is really happening to them - this c
ould
be a form of contact? JM

<Raine> <stu7> ...Joyce... you say you're from "Rainbow" Texas... where in the
state is that ? Near Roswell maybe :)

<CR0W> If you have a question for Joyce please /msg raine or /msg cr0w with them
.

<Joyce> No - not near Roswell - but come on by to visit anyway - We are about 70
 miles
southwest of Dallas - on Mitchell Bend of the Brazos River - JM

<Raine> <jez_ufo> Joyce, have you any plans to visit Varginha, Brazil regarding
the
alleged capture of 'strange beings' back around 20th - 23rd Jan, 1996?

<Joyce> No - spent 18 days in Brasil last Jan - had decided at that time Varginh
a was
too old a story - was in the past - probably had become commercial as well as to
o
embellished - there was so much current stuff going on - but since then have bec
ome
friends with V. Pacaccini JM

<Raine> <Dave_UFO> Have you spoken to many people who have had experience of the
Chupacabras. How do they come across to you?

<Joyce> Yes - please read the story of the little lamb - I hope on my website -
the
chupacabras is for real - have interviewed many people who just chased one out o
f
their yard the night before - one brave lady was swinging a big machete while te
lling
us she was going to get that &*I()(*&^** for killing her chickens JM

<Raine> <^Darren> Joyce, is it true what I've heard (do you know) that the room
below
where the Mexico footage was shot happens to be Jamie Mousan's (spelling?) state
-of-
the-art digital video editing suite? Co-incidence?

<Joyce> I haven't heard that one - have been to Jaime's studio - if it is that s
ame
studio it didn't look too state of the art to me - but I know very little about
videotaping - JM

<Raine> <mawster> do you think that man is just too primitive to be a member of
a
"higher" society?

<Joyce> In my opinion - the so called normal - ordinary - average citizen of eve
ry
country is so far in the dark - their heads so stuck in the sand of the everyday
 world
of having to feed their families and so caught up in the fantasy of television t
hey
don't have a clue - probably more in the dark today than in any dark ages of
civilization JM

<Raine> <I-Knight> Have you any contact/experiences with remote viewers? Anythin
g UFO
related?

<CR0W> If you have a question for Joyce please /msg raine or /msg cr0w with them
.

<Joyce> Yes - not directly affecting me - but have been very close to people aff
ected
by such - Also, I have taken courses myself in psychic development and mind cont
rol
that work much like remote viewing - anyone can do it - Also have seen people wh
ile
they were traveling in astral realm to spacecraft supposedly - getting ET contac
t JM

<Raine> <Nesssus> Joyce who do you think is keeping the most secrets in the USA,
 the
NSA, the CIA, the FBI, the Air Foroce or the US Navy?

<Joyce> The US Navy - It is my hypothesis - that if you find a dimensional porta
l -
things coming and going through it - you will find the Navy Seals guarding that
portal
- crazy I know - but was verified just a few days ago to me - JM

<Raine> <I-Knight> A friend told me recently about a short film clip where this
massive disc-shaped UFO was filmed moving past a building. The ship was huge! Do
 you
know anything about this?

<Joyce> Would this be the Mexico city recent video that someone gave to Jaime Ma
ussan?
Or did this happen somewhere else - I do know that people who claim to travel to
 craft
very often now report that they are huge - But I don't know of any film of a gia
nt
craft? JM

<Raine> <^Darren> Joyce, how do you think the world will react when the crafts/b
eings
land on the preverbial White House lawn?

<Joyce> I could think of a lot of funny things to say right now when we can't wa
tch a
news program without seeing our president's shame - but I think that TV has
conditioned people to just probably ignore it - say no - can't be - that is what
 I
just saw on TV - not real - stuck in the fantasy storage of the brain - JM

<Raine> <stu7> Joyce... sorry to ask this... but are you the same group who adve
rtise
tours in the newage mags ?

<Joyce> No - the last ad I had was in UFO Magazine in the U.S. - don't think we
have
anything in a newage type place - don't advertise except by our newsletter - no
profit
to be made - so we always have people waiting to join us - JM

<Raine> <^Darren> Joyce, Rather than building new rockets, probes space stations
 etc,
do you think we should be developing our minds as the better form of space/dimen
sional
travel to visit other worlds?

<Joyce> I think we should focus of our spiritual development - doing something t
o
provide a more positive environment for our younger generations - less materiali
stic
societies - focus of our love of fellow beings - unconditional love - that seems
 to
always be the basis of any so called ET message - but now most I hear have turne
d to
get ready for what's coming stuff JM

<Raine> <I-Knight> do you think that some/many UFO contacts are psychic in natur
e
rather than being a physical phenomena?

<Joyce> I have learned from my experiences to never doubt the story of someone's
experience - that they have their own individual bubble of reality - might not b
e real
at all in my own bubble - JM

<Raine> <^Darren> Joyce, have you put any articles about your portal experiences
 on
your website?

<Joyce> I think the Brasil story is in there - forgot to mention that the most
impressing fact of UFOlogy in Brasil is that every researcher is also a degreed
scientist - almost everyone we met there - I will have to check on that - had a
short
article in the last newsletter - will put it on the site soon JM

<Raine> <^Darren> Joyce, do you think we all need to start thinking in terms oth
er
than what we "know" in science? I know some people don't believe in the dimensio
nal
and portal theories.

<Joyce> Well, when I was finishing my math degree - I learned that at that time
the
string theory allowed for 10 spatial dimensions that co exist along with our 3D
world -
 now is increased to 20 spatial dimensions - where are those other dimensions an
d what
is in them - I think we have a lot to learn about the "new" physics and science
-
teleportation is now a fact - have you heard that? JM

<Raine> Thats it for questions now Joyce, would you like to finish it there or i
s
there anything that you haven't been asked tonight that you would like to tell u
s
about?

<Joyce> I failed to answer someone's question about how I got started on this pa
th -
fractal geometries of the crop formations led me into the mess - curiosity - lov
e the
people I meet everyday - and always feel that I must share what I have learned -
 get
others out of their routines to get out in the world and explore -

<Joyce> Please visit our website - will try to share everything - Thanx - JM

<Raine> Thanks alot Joyce for coming on sharing your time with us we all appreci
ate it
:)

<CR0W> Well thank you very much indeed Joyce for joining us tonight, it's been q
uite
an insite into the beyondboundaries organisation, I wish you all the best for th
e
future.

<Joyce> Thank you for giving me this opportunity - JM

<Raine> Please come and join us again sometime soon :)

<CR0W> We will now go unmoderated so everyone can bid you farewell

<Dave_UFO> Thank you for being so patient with us, while we got you set up - so-
to-
speak.

Session Close: Sun Dec 13 01:01:07 1998

-[continued in part 2]-
--------------------------------
United Kingdom UFO Network
ufo@holodeck.demon.co.uk
http://www.holodeck.demon.co.uk/





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 6

                  {98} part 2 - United Kingdom UFO Network

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 23:25:49 -0000
Fwd Date: Wed, 06 Jan 1999 10:35:14 -0500
Subject: {98} part 2 - United Kingdom UFO Network

From: United Kingdom UFO Network <ufo@holodeck.demon.co.uk>
Subject: {98} part 2 - United Kingdom UFO Network
To: UFO@MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU

        ______ _______ ______
------ /  /  //  ____//     /---------------------------------------
 U K  /  /  //  ___/ /  /  /                        5th January 1999
     /  /  //  /    /  /  /  N E T W O R K         part 2 - Issue 98
--- (_____//__/    (_____/------------------------------------------

The United Kingdom UFO Network - a free electronic magazine with
subscribers in 58 countries.

This issue comes in 3 parts. If any part is missing please mail:
ufo@holodeck.demon.co.uk giving the issue number. The issue will be
reposted to you. Please put the details as below in the subject
section e.g.  Repost {98} part 1, part 2 or part 3.


United Kingdom News
===================


[UK 1]******

Source: Tony Dodd
Date: 17th November 1998

"It has come to my notice from several directions that I have retired from Ufolo
gy and
the investigation of the same. I don't know how this rumour started or why it wa
s
circulated, but I would like to set the record straight.

In January, 1998 I resigned as a director of Quest International and UFO Magazin
e in
order to persue my own investigations into the UFO phenomenon. This I have conti
nued
to do with all means at my disposal and can state categorically that I have no
intention of retiring or withdrawing from the subject. To all my friends in the
field,
I thank you for your support over the years and remember I will be working along
side
you".

My 'E Mail' address is tonydd@globalnet.com

Best Wishes,

Tony Dodd.

[UK 2] ******

Source: Matthew Williams [truthseekers@btinternet.com]
Date: 19th October 1998

To those concerned.... here is my statement on our activities. I hope
people see the positive side to all of this - because there really is one.

Love Matthew & Paul

---

I Matthew Williams admit that during the summer of 1998 I made crop
circles in the United Kingdom.

This effort was undertaken in order to continue research into the circles
phenomena and follows on from limited circlemaking which took place in 96
and 97.

The *initial* reasons for undertaking this research are as follows:

1. To determine how easy or hard it is to make complex formations.
2. To observe the reactions of researchers in the crop circle fraternity
and to see how good their senses are for the recognition of man made
circles.
3. To ascertain if their if there is a form of communication
observable between circlemakers via pattern progression. This includes
human and "alien" or "spirit" intelligences.
4. To observe if there were any unusual effects observable of an anomalous natur
e
whilst making a circle - as has been stated on many occasions by other human
circlemakers.
5. To understand the phenomena of circlemaking and its effects from a
different perspective - that of a circlermaker as opposed to researcher.
6. To ascertain if various other claims of previous human circlemakers
were true.

The need for secrecy in our work was paramount so as not to change our
results or effect the reactions of public or circles researchers. This was
not an attempt to "HOAX" people - merely a need to maintain status quo, so
as to establish a control sample from which we could guague reactions.

We did inform some researchers of what we were doing and even some close
friends. We obviously did not then refer to these people in our
observations as they were no longer part of the control. Some people are
offended because "they were not told". Well this is a fact they would have
to deal with. As far as we are concerned we told only those that we
considered important enough. Now that the "secret" is out, we are happy to
talk more openly about our results. Hopefully this will satisfy the
questions of those who were not given privvy to inside knowledge.

RESULTS:

It was clear that a few months into the circlemaking season that as we
progressed in our endeavours that our group of circlemakers was changing
its opinions and motorvations as to circlemaking. This also progressively
effected a change in the inital questions that were being asked by us.

We observed many unusual phenomena in and around the fields whilst making
circles. We noticed changes in our outlook on life whilst making the
circles and got a sense that we were in communciation with a much higher
intelligence regarding the responses to our circle designs - ie: other
circles which appeared as an apparent reponse to circles which we created.

I will not go into to greater detail about what exactly these life
altering changes were as some of this is still sinking in for me, the
realisations still far too fantastic for me to feel comfortable writing
about.

However I can say that due to special coincidences which took place -
which included the creation of almost exactly the same types of designs
appearing in different parts of the country on the same nights as we were
working, we had to conclude that human circlemakers (ourselves included)
were being given inspiration from a higher source for their designs.

Due to this change in attitude we them started to see circlemaking as a
form of sacred art which has a higher purpose. This is how I still
currently regard the subject.

Our circles were regarded by the circle research community as genuine.

We witnessed many measurable effects wuch as dowsability of the crop
circle after creation. These tests were undertaken by both ourselves and
independant researchers - albeit not to a scientific standard, but to a
near enough level for our benefit.

UFOs and other paranormal events were percieved in and around the areas
where we were making circles whilst we undertook their construction.

Whilst making circles we became aware that we were being protected by some
unseen force or intelligence whilst we worked. This was evidenced many
times to us and even took on the form of making us invisible and inaudible
to people standing on the edge of the field we were working in. (We at
first found this very very disconcerting having thought that we had been
caught out by either members of the public or circles researchers, only to
find out that we could not be seen or heard!) Maybey this is why no human
circlemakers have ever been caught.

People also experienced various equipment failures in our circles and
strange video andphotographic evidence has been collected by circles
researchers and public.

CONCLUSIONS

We believe Crop Circles to be a sacred form of art whose purpose is to
mystify people and cause them to ask questions of themselves about their
spirituality and the nature of the universe. Without the circles -whoever
the creators are then such questions would not be asked.

Crop circles do represent a tangable paranormal attractor and emitter.

We think that the message of the higher intelligence behind inspiration
for crop circles and subsequent paranormal activity contained therewithin
is entirely benign and friendly in nature.

The circles we made and considered by us to be genuine in both their
undamaged nature - how we were able to achieve non damage to plants with
use of our "stomper" boards (in the case of some, but not all, circles) is
a magical effect.

The subject grows in dynamism and interest due to human involvement - as
it human involvement that is a heavy part of the circle phenomena.

There is probably a non human intelligence working alongside human circle
makers to create some circles outright. IE the original phenomena still
remains creating circles - a fact to which ALL human circlemakers agree.
This is a very worthy point to note! Evidence to this come in the form of
additions to circles which appear in the morning.

There are fruther conclusions that will be revealed as we compile our
results.

RECOMENDATIONS:

Anyone wishing to take part in creating circles must do so with reverence
and attempt to maintain a very high standard of work. They should not
discuss the details fo their work with anyone outside their team - so as
not to lose the magical effect for public observers. It is an old addage
that authorship causes circles to lose they mystique. Mystique can be a
shamanistic way to draw people towards a greater realisation through a
occult act (in some cases). *please take the word occult in its literal
sense, not a sinister sense*


I am sure that those who do ask for guidance get it. Ask with humility and
you may be surprised to see your circlemaking ability improve radically.
When circles are made with the wrong intent they look bad and do not have
paranormal effects attatched to them (sometimes they do but in a lessened
quantity - or warped/strange effects are observed).

Good luck everybody....

I think this information only goes to make the circle phenomena bigger
than it ever was before. Circle researchers should at last now embrace
these facts and get on board - see the bigger picture and we should all be
thankful that circles have for those who are preapred to take seriously
what they read here.

Love and enlightenment

Matthew Williams & Paul Damon
EDITORS TRUTHSEEKERS REVIEW

[UK 3]******

From: "Ron H" <ronald.hollyfield@cableol.co.uk>
Date sent: 8th November 1998

Dear Dave,

I was very interested in the Birmingham policeman sighting a star that '
shot up quickly', and you may be interested in the following personal
experience.

Observed at Bexhill on Sea, Sussex.

In the late 1950's (probably '57) my wife and I were walking home after an
evening with friends. The November sky was brilliant, a mass of stars and
we tried to recognise various constellations. Almost directly above us,
but slightly to the East was a group of stars forming a triangle, the
distance between each star being about one forefinger fingertip held at
arms length. (Does that make sense?) Quite suddenly the two Southernmost
stars shot across the sky in a Southerly direction at enormous speed, and
then equally suddenly stopped. After probably 20 or 30 seconds the 'stars'
shot off again, one to the South, the other making a ninety degree turn
and heading West. After a few seconds both objects disappeared, not by
going out of range, but as if someone had "turned the lights off".

It is worth mentioning that there was no noise, no flashing lights and
strangely no visible acceleration, the objects going from stationary to
'flat out' immediately. The distances traveled must have been enormous,
being first (before stopping) some eighteen inches - at star distance, and
then again another eighteen inches. If indeed these were manned craft of
some sort, it is difficult to visualise how a life form could tolerate the
'G' levels that would have been encountered.

I have a theory about what my wife and I saw - but that's another story.

Best wishes

Ron Hollyfield

[UK 4] ******

Source: UFO Magazine UK

uk.ufo.nw says: It looks like those of us in the UK are in for an interesting fe
w
months on the TV. If UFO Magazine have had a hand in many of these I for one am
looking forward to viewing them. "Father Christmas I want some blank video's"

British TV viewers in for a treat.

British terrestrial and satellite TV viewers are in for a real treat as we enter
 1999,
as a host of UFO-related programmes begin to appear. BSKYB have five major 1-hou
r
documentaries; Channel 4 have four 1-hour documentaries; Central TV have schedul
ed a 1-
hour nightly slot which will run for 6 months. Even the Disney Channel have got
in on
the act with an impending nightly 1-week series specifically aimed at youngsters
.
Granada TV are also producing a series on UFOs and the paranormal while BBC 2 wi
ll be
featuring a 30-minute special in January.

UFO Magazine has assisted all of the above programme-makers and our offices at t
imes
have resembled a mini-TV studio, with passers-by outside curious as to what has
been
going on as bright arc lights burned well into the night.

[UK 5] ******

Source: The Times
Publish Date: 15th August 1998

Reports of UFOs vanish mysteriously into space

BY JAMES LANDALE, POLITICAL REPORTER

THE little green men from outer space have packed their bags, fired up their fly
ing
saucers and headed home. Or perhaps we have just become a little less credulous.
Reported sightings of UFOs have fallen dramatically in Britain in the past year,
according to the Ministry of Defence. In 1996, 609 people told the ministry that
 they
had seen an unidentified flying object. Last year, the figure dropped to 425. In
 the
first six months of this year only 88 people reported sightings.

Ministry officials differed from UFO experts yesterday in explaining the decline
. A
ministry spokesman suggested that Hollywood was to blame. The unusually high 199
6
figures had, he said, been prompted by the film Independence Day, with its story
 of
aliens trying to destroy Earth. This was compounded by Men in Black, last year's
 film
about aliens living on our planet. Similarly high numbers occurred after Close
Encounters of the Third Kind in the late 1970s, when sightings rocketed from 435
 to
750.

The spokesman added that the Hale-Bopp comet and last year's 50th anniversary of
 an
American pilot coining the term "flying saucer" had contributed to the figures.
"There
was a series of films and events in 1996 and 1997 which triggered off a spate of
reports from the public," he said. "In contrast, this year we have had the World
 Cup."

His theory has a flaw: UFO sightings dropped from 600 to 250 after ET hit the sc
reens
in 1982. Nick Pope, a UFO expert and civil servant who investigated sightings fo
r the
ministry between 1991 and 1994, was sceptical of the films theory: "The idea of
a link
is an attempt to try to trivialise the UFO project."

Graham Birdsall, editor of UFO Magazine, said official reports of sightings had
declined because the ministry decided last year to stop taking them in person ov
er the
telephone, installing an answering machine instead. This put people off making a
report.

He claimed that the official figures represented only 10 per cent of UFO sightin
gs,
most of which went unreported because observers were afraid of being mocked. Man
y
other reports, made to the police and airports, did not reach the ministry.

The official figures were given in a written parliamentary answer to Lord Hill-N
orton,
the 83-year-old former First Sea Lord and UFO aficionado. His only comment yeste
rday
was that he did not think the number of sightings had dropped.

[UK 6]******

Source: Police Review magazine
Publish Date: 18th September 1998

uk.ufo.nw says: This article was brought to our attention by a police office fri
end of
ours. Police Review is a magazine available to anyone but covers all police forc
es
throughout the United Kingdom.

This letter appeared on the letters page.

UFO Call

As a freelance writer, I am currently researching and investigating police invol
vement
in the UFO subject. To get a nationwide perspective, I would like to make an app
eal
for any retired or serving police officers who have had any involvement in UFO
sightings or have had any personal experience to contact me.

This information will be collated into a book that I am currently writing.

All individuals will be acknowledged should they wish to be, or alternatively, I
 have
no objection to the use of pseudonyms and will, of course, have the utmost respe
ct for
personal privacy and confidentiality.

Should you wish to contact me, you can write or phone at: Irene Bott, 11 Sandy L
ane,
Rugeley, Staffordshire, WS15 2LB. Tel: 01889 576771. Mobile: 01523 102476

[UK 7]******

Source: BBC
Date: Wednesday 30th December 1998

Space holidays thought likely by 2010

Holidays in space could be available in just over a decade, author of 2001: A Sp
ace
Odyssey, Arthur C. Clarke has said.

"I am sure space tourism will be big business by 2010" he told the BBC.

"Space travel is at the same stage of development as aviation in 1910"

Gene Myer, of US firm Space Islands, said British Airways and Virgin Airlines we
re
developing ideas.

He said a weeks holiday in a space hotel would be selling for 10,000 pounds.

[UK 8]******

uk.ufo.nw says: The below two reports speak for themselves. UK 9 follows on from
 UK 8.

Source: BBC Online
Publish Date: Thursday 29th October 1998

Puzzle over alien 'discovery'

Is there intelligent life in this star system?

By our Science Editor David Whitehouse
The scientific world is buzzing with the suggestion that signals from aliens liv
ing in
another star system may have been picked up by a part-time astronomer.

Other astronomers are scrambling to confirm or deny them.

It could either be the most important discovery ever made, or more likely, a cas
e of
mistaken identity or an elaborate hoax.

At first the part-time astronomer who discovered the signals would not reveal hi
s
identity. However he has since been named as Paul Dore of Siemens Plessey System
s in
the UK.

He has been using a small radio telescope belonging to his firm to scan the sky
for
intelligent signals.

On October 22 and on the following night, he reported detecting signals from the
 EQ
Pegasi star system which is 22 light years away.

The signals were not the type that occurs naturally. The data has been distribut
ed to
several astronomers and observatories.

However astronomers at the Jodrell Bank Observatory in England say it is all a c
ase of
mistaken identity. Astronomer Ian Morrison told BBC News Online: "I think he has
detected signals from a satellite."

The truth is out there

The same search for extra-terrestrial life is being carried out by professional
astronomers using the world's largest radio telescopes such as the one in Arecib
o,
Puerto Rico.

They call it Seti, the Search for Extra-Terrestrial Intelligence.

With the development of radio astronomy in the 1950s, astronomers realised that
they
had telescopes that could send and receive radio signals between the stars.

The first search for radio signals from space was in 1960. Two nearby stars were
observed but no signals were detected.

Since then about 40 searches have been made. Many unusual signals have been dete
cted
but astronomers think that none of them were from intelligent life.

Last month astronomers at the giant Arecibo radio telescope conducting 'project
Phoenix,' a detailed search for radio signals from intelligent life in space, de
tected
a signal from EQ Peg but concluded that it was man-made interference.

The EQ Peg star system is unlike our own. It consists of two dim red dwarf stars
orbiting each other. From time to time explosions, so-called stellar flares, occ
ur on
both stars.

Detecting signals from some form of intelligence living in a nearby star system
would
be the most important scientific discovery ever made.

At the moment it seems likely that the 'alien' radio signals are just man-made
interference.

Terrestrial signals can easily fool astronomers into thinking that they have det
ected
ET.

The searchers of project Phoenix recently tracked a signal for 14 hours before t
hey
realised it was a scientific satellite.

Many astronomers involved in searching for life in space have expressed regret t
hat
the EQ Peg observations were released without going through the procedure agreed
 to
tell the public about possible ET signals.

Because of this they say they are suspicious that it is all a hoax.

Even if it is it will have caused many scientists to think again about how they
would
release the news of a real discovery.

[UK 9]******

Source: BBC Online
Publish Date: Tuesday 3rd November 1998

Alien hoax dismays scientists

by Science Editor Dr David Whitehouse

Some greeted it as a breakthrough. Others were more suspicious, believing it to
be a
hoax.

Now the strange case of the 'alien' signals from a nearby star seems to be just
that.

Last week it was claimed that a British engineer working for a telecommunication
s
company had picked up strange signals from a nearby star system called EQ Pegasi
.

The data was posted on the Internet, starting a flurry of debate. Some astronome
rs
went away to look at EQ Peg, others were suspicious.
Chasing a ghost.

"For the past 10 days we have been chasing a ghost," says Dr Paul Shuch executiv
e
director of the Seti (Search for Extra-Terrestrial Intelligence) League, an
international organisation of amateur ET hunters.

The Seti League has a network of 900 members in 48 countries. Many of them opera
te
small radio telescopes as part of their search for alien signals from space.

"None of them has been able to find the claimed signal from EQ Peg," says Dr Shu
ch.

"Real science has been jeopardised. It is no longer just a hoax, it is sabotage
of a
highly respected grassroots effort. It has set Seti back a hundred years."
Some of the world's major radio telescopes have also been looking for the signal
 with
no success.

The Australian compact array telescope, which is 30 times more powerful than the
telescope that found the original signals, has not found anything.

"We think it may be a satellite," says Ian Morison of Jodrell Bank.
Other scientists have denounced the supposed findings as a deliberate attempt to
 trick
the world.

"It is a hoax and not a very good one at that," says Dr Nathan Cohen of Boston
University.

He declined to elaborate because he said such information could be useful to fut
ure
hoaxers.

Dr Seth Shostak of the Seti Institute in California said he was suspicious becau
se the
supposed discovery did not come through the usual channels and that the nature o
f the
signal was strange.

Rumours that the signal had been detected by the giant German radio telescope at
Effelsberg have also been denied. Dr Rolf Schwartz said "We are not involved in
any
Seti experiment."

Paul Dore however maintains he did find something and that the British and Ameri
can
security services have told him it was a secret spy satellite.

The search goes on. For the past 40 years astronomers have been using radio tele
scopes
to scan the sky looking for alien signals.

Their equipment, designed to sift an alien signal from the cosmic static, is get
ting
better all the time.

Prof Frank Drake, who conducted the first search, has said he is hopeful a detec
tion
will be made during the next 18 months or so.

One thing is clear however. Seti scientists will have learned a lot in the past
week
about how to publicise any discovery of ET, as well as how to get their message
across
when they think the world is being fooled.

The discovery of alien signals from space would rank as one of the major discove
ries
of all time. The lesson of EQ Peg is that releasing such news may be a somewhat
messy
affair.

[UK 10]******

uk.ufo.nw says: The below is a rather interesting editorial from the current iss
ue of
the excellent UFO Magazine. It is penned by the magazines editor Graham Birdsall
. If
any reader has further information or can get hold of the Yorkshire Evening Post
article, please get in touch.

Graham Birdsall was a recent guest on uk.ufo.nw IRC channel. The text log of thi
s
meeting can be found at our web site: www.holodeck.demon.co.uk

Source: UFO Magazine (UK)
Publish Date: January/February 1999

Editorial

As most of Europe prepares to entertain Monetary Union, Britain finds itself eng
aged
in a familiar debate about whether it should or should not embrace what some fea
r will
lead to a 'United States of Europe'. "Nationalism is the only game in town," bar
ks
nuclear physicist Stanton T. Friedman, and it's a cry taken up by many who cling
 to
their ideals about national sovereignty.

But while politicians of both 'for and against' camps court favour with the medi
a to
put across their points of view to the public at large, issues far bigger than E
urope
concern this particular individual, yet they strike at the very heart of the deb
ate.

Less than five miles from our offices here in Ilkley, West Yorkshire lies RAF Me
nwith
Hill, America's most important overseas communications base and manned by the la
rgest
concentration of National Security Agency personnel outside of Ft. Meade, Maryla
nd,
home to the NSA.

I had no quarrel with such a large American presence on my doorstep, because RAF
Menwith Hill helped save thousands of allied lives during the Gulf War through t
he
vital interception of Iraqi communication systems. But since learning that it is
 to
become an anti-ballistic missile warning station, through the deployment of 'Sta
r
Wars' technology in space, I confess to having grave doubts about its future rol
e.

Little has appeared in the national press to alert the nation as to what is abou
t to
happen at Menwith Hill and I seriously doubt whether most are even remotely awar
e that
the local council are required by an act of parliament to grant planning permiss
ion
for any new construction at the facility. The council were recently obliged to r
ubber
stamp the construction of two new radomes at the base, but had no idea these wer
e to
be part of the 'Star Wars' anti-ballistic missile system until I had alerted the
 local
media (a front page story in the Yorkshire Evening Post emerged some 48 hours la
ter).

What is worse, the new system planned for RAF Menwith Hill is a flagrant breach
of
Article 5 of the 1972 Anti-Ballistic Missile Treaty between the United States an
d the
former Soviet Union according to one senior US Admiral, but nobody seems to give
 a
damn. What price sovereignty in all this I wonder?

It's all very odd, particularly when you begin to ask yourself why such a system
 is
needed in the first place - and to counter what exactly?

The Cold War is officially at an end, yet Russia has remained curiously silent.
Why,
for instance, didn't it act on the retired Admiral's charge and lodge a formal
complaint with either the United States of United Nations?

The other issue which greatly concerns me is the failure on the part of the Brit
ish
Government to honour its commitment to introduce a Freedom of Information Bill.
I had
hoped the Queen's Speech would signal its long awaited arrival, but it was not t
o be.

How ironic then, that in order to prise information about the UFO subject from t
he
British Government, we should still have to rely on questions raised by non-elec
ted
members of the House of Lords.

Freedom, democracy and sovereignty are all issues which are clear to our hearts,
 but I
sometimes wonder who is really pulling the strings.

Have a great Xmas and peace and festive tidings to you all.

G.W. Birdsall

[UK 11]******

Source: Daily Mail newspaper
Publish Date: Thursday 31st December 1998

X-Files riddle of whine that goes to woman's heads

By Kate Hurry

It is a phenomenon that could be straight out of the X-Files. A strange humming
noise
is heard all over town - but only by woman.

The mystery that sounds more like a case for television's sci-fi agents Scully a
nd
Mulder is causing sleepless nights and feelings of desperation among its victims
.

Environmental health officers in Warrington, Cheshire, have been unable to locat
e the
source of the noise which, strangely, no man has reported hearing.

Anne Heesom, 55, is one of a dozen woman affected. "It's a high pitched pulsatin
g,
humming noise and it's turning me into a nervous wreck," she said. "It's been go
ing on
for 18 months and it's had such an effect on my life I'm going to move house.

"The noise abatement officer drove me around to try to isolate the noise and we
stopped outside a water treatment works. He thought it could have been from one
of the
generators." Other woman living up to two miles apart have complained of hearing
noises ranging from intermittent droning and humming to high pitched whining. So
me of
their homes have been fitted with sound monitoring equipment, but male investiga
tors
sent along have failed to detect any unusual noises, which are said to sound lou
der
from bedrooms and on cold, frosty nights.

The key to the riddle could be the way woman's brains perceive noises differentl
y to
men, experts believe.

Dr Jonathan Hazell, head of London's Tinnutus Centre, said "the victims could be
'hummers' - people who are hypersensitive to extremely quiet external sound.

The way sound is heard depends on how it is filtered through the subconscious ar
eas of
the brain, he explained. Woman are possibly more attuned to quiet noises to enab
le
them to pick up the sounds of their babies at night.

Chief environmental health officer Andrew Gilbert said: "They are hearing someth
ing,
whether it is actual or perceived, and we have to apply objective analysis to fi
nd out
where it is coming from. We've not closed the file yet."






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 6

               Re: NASA's Stephens Admits to CAUS That He is a

From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net>
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 18:12:56 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 06 Jan 1999 10:24:04 -0500
Subject: Re: NASA's Stephens Admits to CAUS That He is a

>From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
>Date: Tue, 05 Jan 1999 10:32:16 +0000
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: NASA's Stephens Admits to CAUS That He is a Fraud


>>From: Peter Gersten <UFOLAWYER1@aol.com>
>>Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 23:58:36 EST
>>Fwd Date: Tue, 05 Jan 1999 09:35:32 -0500
>>Subject: NASA's Stephens Admits to CAUS That He is a Fraud

>Previously, Peter offered this insight into Robert Stephens:

>>Mr. Stephens was able to fool us for over 80 days.  Shame on us.
>>We are so eager, CAUS included, to find the truth, that we will
>>embrace any 'savior' who presents himself cloaked in the garb of
>>'knowing the truth.'

><snip>

>>A little knowledge is a
>>dangerous weapon in the wrong hands.  In Mr. Stephens' hands, we
>>became willing victims for his expert swordsmanship.

><snip>

>>Hopefully we can learn from the past and not continue to make
>>the same mistakes.  Mr. Stephens was sent to us as an example of
>>what we need to do in the future...if ever presented with
>>another 'savior.'

>I am stunned.

>If you have been reading this list at all, I think you'll find
>that virtually NO ONE took Stephens seriously, much less thought
>of him as a 'savior'. His "swordsmanship", as you put it, was so
>severely lacking that even most armchair ufologists didn't even
>give him a second thought. The fact that _you_ were fooled
>doesn't mean that the majority was also. With all due respect,
>Mr. Gersten, you need to speak for yourself. The picture you
>paint is one of justification for your own gullibility and you
>can leave me out of it.

>I see no lesson to be learned here at all. To attribute such a
>thing to Stephens gives him far more credit than he deserves and
>affords you too convenient a cushion for your fall from reason.

>Later,

>Roger Evans


Hello Roger,

Don't fret over Gerstens' "Fall from reason", - It wasn't a very
long trip! Besides, our Mr Gersten fell off of 'that pony' long
before this. <G>

I wish that CAUS could once again be the tool it once promised
to be when guys like Stan Friedman et. al. would use CAUS as a
platform from which to secure previously classified documents
from the government and to pass on onfo to the public. It
_could_ have been a major 'grass roots' venue, a rallying point.
Instead, it's just another 'UFO related junk mail list' and
nothing more. CAUS needs someone with vision and credentialed
credibility at the helm. Gersten is just running a hippie
commune over there. Until that changes, CAUS will remain the
impotent joke it has become under his leadership.

Peace,

John Velez
________________________________________________
                                jvif@spacelab.net
INTRUDERS FOUNDATION/ABDUCTION INFORMATION CENTER
                            http://www.if-aic.com
"Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind."
________________________________________________





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 6

                  {98} part 3 - United Kingdom UFO Network

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 23:25:49 -0000
Fwd Date: Wed, 06 Jan 1999 10:36:58 -0500
Subject: {98} part 3 - United Kingdom UFO Network

From: United Kingdom UFO Network <ufo@holodeck.demon.co.uk>
Subject: {98} part 3 - United Kingdom UFO Network
To: UFO@MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU

        ______ _______ ______
------ /  /  //  ____//     /---------------------------------------
 U K  /  /  //  ___/ /  /  /                        5th January 1999
     /  /  //  /    /  /  /  N E T W O R K         part 3 - Issue 98
--- (_____//__/    (_____/------------------------------------------

The United Kingdom UFO Network - a free electronic magazine with
subscribers in 58 countries.

This issue comes in 3 parts. If any part is missing please mail:
ufo@holodeck.demon.co.uk giving the issue number. The issue will be
reposted to you. Please put the details as below in the subject
section e.g.  Repost {98} part 1, part 2 or part 3.


World News
==========


[W 1]******

Source: SHANGHAI, Agence France Presse
Publish Date: 5th November 1998
From: Kelly <kellymc@netcom.ca>

Air Force Pilot Plays Chase with UFO

SHANGHAI, Nov. 05, 1998 -- (Agence France Presse) The air force
had a prolonged up-close encounter with a UFO last month that
one fighter pilot described as "just like ones in foreign
movies," a government-controlled newspaper reported Thursday.

A Hebei Daily report -- carried in the news digest Baokan
Wenzhai -- gave a detailed pilot's account of an aerial
cat-and-mouse game played between the object and a jet fighter
ordered to intercept it.

At least 140 people on the ground also saw the object, it said.

An editor with the Hebei Daily said the events took place on
Oct. 19 and were still being investigated by local government
departments.

The newspaper's report and military sources quoted show an
openness that contrast sharply with Washington's notorious
secrecy on the topic of unidentified flying objects (UFOs).

It said the encounter began when four different radar stations
in northern Hebei province picked up an unknown moving target in
airspace directly above a military flight training base near
Changzhou city.

To observers at the base, the UFO first appeared like "a small
star," and then grew larger and larger, perhaps as it descended
to a lower altitude, the report said.

They described an object with a mushroom-shaped dome on top and
a flat bottom covered with bright, continually rotating lights.

A base commander surnamed Li reported to his superiors, who
ordered a Jianjiao-6 armed interceptor airborne to pursue the
object once checks showed no other civilian or military aircraft
in the area.

The two pilots aboard said the object closely resembled
depictions they had seen in foreign science fiction films.

When they got within 4,000 meters (13,200 feet) of the UFO over
Qing county, it abruptly shot upward, easily evading subsequent
attempts to get closer.

It appeared to be toying with the fighter by repeatedly
outdistancing it and then reappearing just above it, the pilots
said.

The report said a request for permission to fire on the UFO with
an onboard cannon was denied by ground command at one point.

The interceptor was eventually forced to return to base after it
ran out of fuel at an altitude of 12,000 meters (39,600 feet).
The UFO then disappeared before two newer-model planes could get
airborne, the article said.

While China's racy tabloids often run stories of strange
phenomena alongside celebrity-gossip and crime stories, UFO
reports are seldom carried by more official papers like the
Hebei Daily. ( (c) 1998 Agence France Presse)

[W 2]******

Source: Time Magazine
Publish Date: 9th November 1998

In Case You Missed It: Eerie News from All Over.

It may just have been the way the cosmos marks Halloween, but look at the scary
stories in last week's news:

IN BELLEVILLE, WIS., village officials attempted to postpone Halloween, a tradit
ion
that dates back to the Druids, because it conflicted with the town's UFO festiva
l,
which dates back to 1986. Protests ensued, and it was decided that adults dresse
d as
Klingons could coexist with children dressed as witches (though not necessarily
Klansmen dressed as Mickey).

[W 3]******

Source: BBC
Date: 10th December 1998

Earth has heart of solid iron

Seismic waves have probed to the centre of the Earth

For 60 years geophysicists have suspected that the Earth's inner core was solid
- now
they have proved it. By detecting special seismic tremors in the aftermath of a
massive Indonesian earthquake, the seismologists from Northwestern University an
d the
French Atomic Energy Commission have shown without doubt that at the heart of th
e
Earth is a solid iron-nickel ball, 2400km in diameter.

Destructive earthquakes can yield scientific benefits
Emile Okal and his French colleague, Yves Cansi, used an eight-station French se
ismic
network to study the earthquake occurring on the other side of the world.

"The 1996 Flores Sea earthquake, which was a big earthquake at about 600km depth
, was
perfect in geometry for recording in France," said Okal. It was a rare opportuni
ty as
massive, deep earthquakes are needed to probe the necessary 5000km below the sur
face
of the Earth but only happen infrequently.

Breakthrough applauded

Experts hailed the research, announced at the American Geophysical Union meeting
 in
San Francisco, as a breakthrough.

Professor Kathy Whaler, a geophysicist at Edinburgh University told BBC News Onl
ine,
"No-one has unambiguously taken these waves from the inner core before. And ther
e is a
group in Utrecht who are getting the same result but using a different analysis
of a
different earthquake, 1994 in Bolivia - that gives us confidence."

As long ago as the 1930s, scientists predicted that despite a temperature of tho
usands
of degrees, the crushing pressure at the Earth's centre would cause the iron-nic
kel
alloy to freeze. But because the telltale signals are so weak they have taken 60
 years
to detect.

Capturing faint seismic tremors dispelled doubt
The key to the breakthrough is the behaviour of the two types of seismic waves.
Pulse
waves can travel through both liquids and solids as they move by compressing and
 then
relaxing the material in the direction of travel.

Shear waves, in contrast, can only pass through solids. They vibrate at right an
gles
to the direction of travel and as liquids have no material strength the signal r
apidly
dissipates in the fluid.

So detecting a shear wave coming all the way from the inner core would prove it
was
solid. But the scientists' task was made even more difficult by the fact that th
e
liquid outer core surrounding the inner core blanks out all shear waves.

Wave energy converted

So they then had to exploit the different speeds at which the waves travel. Imag
ine a
seismic wave rumbling down through the Earth. When it reaches the outer core, al
l
shear waves are lost and only pulse waves continue. When the pulse waves reach t
he
inner core the waves are partly refracted and reflected.

This allows part of the energy to convert into shear waves that then travel thro
ugh
the inner core. Shear waves travel more slowly than pulse waves so they reach th
e
opposite side of the inner core later. Here they are partly converted back to pu
lse
waves.

It was these delayed pulse waves that the scientists detected. The reason it has
 taken
60 years to do so is because the conversions from pulse to shear to pulse sap th
e
energy of the waves so the signals are exceedingly weak.

Improvements in instrumentation over the last 15 years were crucial to the new
finding, Okal said, as were computer capabilities, developed in France, to sort
the
signals from the noise.

"We look at the interior of the Earth because we want to know what is there," ex
plains
Okal simply. "But it may be interesting material scientists because it shows tha
t
under tremendous pressures, iron is behaving in a different way. This understand
ing
might be applicable for other materials at not-so-heavy pressures."

[W 4]******

Source: BBC
Date: 10th December 1998

Astronauts cross new threshold

Robert Cabana (below) and Sergei Krikalev switch on the lights

Two astronauts from the US shuttle Endeavour have made history by becoming the f
irst
people to step inside the International Space Station.

US commander Robert Cabana and Russian cosmonaut Sergei Krikalev excitedly unloc
ked
three hatches before floating side by side into Unity, the US-made science outpo
st.

They carried lanterns to see inside the 36-foot (10 meter) cylindrical chamber.

Lights on

Once inside the space station, the astronauts marked the moment by simply switch
ing on
the lights.

Commander Cabana paves the way forward
They shared the moment with the world as they carried a camera into the space st
ation.

"It's fantastic. I can't say how much this means to all of us" said Mr Cabana.

"We remember when Unity was just an aluminum shell. It's really nice to be in a
new
home."

Mission Control replied: "You've opened the doors to a whole new era in spacefli
ght."

Endeavour's six-member crew began assembling the first two elements of the $60bn
outpost on Sunday, but all of the work was outside the seven-level space station
 prior
to the hatch opening.

The space station consists of only two rooms so far and is still more than five
years
from completion.

Astronauts work to install a communications system to Unity
The crew is now carrying out interior work, including the installation of a
communication system to provide a link between the shuttle and the space station
 when
the shuttle is not docked.

More than 100 space station components will eventually be assembled in orbit in
one of
the most ambitious engineering feats ever.

Sixteen nations are involved in the project, led by the United States and Russia
 and
requiring more than 40 manned missions during construction.

So far, work has gone smoothly, but project managers are concerned about three p
ieces
of hardware that escaped during earlier spacewalks.

The small pieces of space debris pose no threat to the crew or the mission, but
the US
says its air force will be monitoring the situation until the components re-ente
r the
Earth's atmosphere and burn up.

A third spacewalk is scheduled for Saturday, with the Endeavour due to return to
 Earth
on Monday.

[W 5]******

Source: CNN

Art Bell

The night is filled with many things, not all of which go bump.

One of those things is the voice of Art Bell. That voice carries out through the
darkness, riding the invisible radio waves from his broadcast headquarters--a tr
ailer
next to his house in Pahrump, Nevada--over the lizards and sagebrush, between th
e
shadows and moonbeams, finally emerging from the speakers in millions of radios
belonging to those who are more fond of that voice than sleep.

It is the subject matter that his listeners crave--a titillating goulash of para
normal
activity, UFOs and the aliens who man them, cults, government conspiracies,
chupacabras, Ouija boards, black holes and small greys, the New World Order,
communication with the dead, and anything else seemingly abnormal in the univers
e.

All of this is discussed on Bell's phone-in talk shows--"Coast to Coast A.M.," w
hich
airs six nights a week from 10 p.m. to 3 a.m., and "Dreamland," a program especi
ally
tailored to things paranormal on Sunday nights from 6 to 9 p.m. He's been broadc
asting
for 14 years--currently on more than 400 stations--and boasts the fourth largest
audience in talk radio nationwide.

Yet, listening to Bell in a room with the lights out or on the car radio while
following the headlights down a lonely stretch of highway, you get a seductive f
eeling
of campfire ghost-story intimacy. It's just you and him and his cavalcade of gue
sts
and callers, many of whom sound paranoid and insane, but this is information tha
t must
be heard. And when you hear it you'll know why.

uk.ufo.nw says: The Art Bell show is one of two highly recommended radio shows t
hat
can be listened to live in the USA or via the Internet for the rest of the world
. Both
the Art Bell show and Sightings On The Radio have their shows indexed and archiv
ed.
Past shows can be listened to at any time by using Real Audio.

Art Bell show: www.artbell.com

Sightings On The Radio: www.sightings.com

[W 6]******

From: "Darren Danks" <darrend@cableinet.co.uk>

"The nations of the world will have to unite, for the next war will  be an
interplanetary war.   The nations of the earth must someday make a common
front against attack by people from other planets."

General Douglas MacArthur, Oct. 8, 1955

[W 7]******

Source: Daily Mail newspaper
Publish Date: Tuesday 5th January 1999

Diplomatic silence on aliens

Question: Is it true that former UN secretary general Javier Perez de Cuellar cl
aims
to have been abducted by aliens?

Answer: There is no evidence that Perez de Cuellar has publicly or privately cla
imed
to have been abducted by aliens.

Yet it is alleged by some people that in the small hours of November 30th 1989,
Perez
de Cuellar and several other people were abducted from a high security cavalcade
 of
vehicles by a large oval UFO, which sank into Manhattan's East River, close to t
he
Brooklyn Bridge.

The focus of the abduction seems to have been a lady of dubious virtue named Lin
da
Cortile who, to the horror of onlookers, was floated out through her apartment w
indow
high above the Manhattan streets at about the same time.

The story then becomes complex with Cortile being stalked and supposedly kidnapp
ed by
two of Perez de Cuellar's security staff who were abducted with her, one of whom
develops an obsession with her and is subsequently committed to a mental institu
tion.

She is then supposed to have become convinced she was Perez de Cuellar's daughte
r. He,
so the story goes, came to share this belief and occasionally sneaked round to h
er
apartment to bestow unlikely presents on her teenage son.

That this story is still held by some to be valid, despite concrete indications
to the
contrary, is probably due to its promotion by the enormously influential abducti
on
researcher Budd Hopkins rather than any supporting evidence.

[W 8]******

Source: CNN
Publish Date: Sunday 4th January 1998

CAPE CANAVERAL, Florida (CNN) -- NASA's newest spacecraft hurtled toward Mars Mo
nday
on a mission to dig for traces of water, transmit pictures and -- for the first
time --
 listen for sounds.

The Mars Polar Lander lifted off on schedule Sunday from Cape Canaveral under gr
ay
skies precisely on time at 3:21 p.m. EST (2021 GMT). The launch began an 11-mont
h
journey whose prime goal is to search for water -- a key ingredient for life --
on the
red planet's southernmost icy surface.

"We have liftoff of the Delta 2 rocket carrying the Mars Polar Lander, NASA's fi
rst
visit to the red planet's southern pole," said launch commentator Lisa Malone as
 the
rocket soared skyward.

The landing craft, shrouded in a protective heat shield, separated from the rock
et's
upper stage about 42 minutes later, high above the Indian Ocean, to begin its 47
0
million mile (757 million km) interplanetary voyage.

'I don't know what we're going to see'

The lander is designed to work in tandem with its sister ship, the Mars Climate
Orbiter, launched three weeks ago to observe the planet from an orbit 262 miles
(422
km) high. Together with European nations, NASA hopes to launch unmanned craft to
 Mars
every two years.

If all goes according to plan, the lander will touch down on the edge of the Mar
tian
south pole, a cap of frozen carbon dioxide, on December 3. The craft will slow i
ts
descent with a parachute and rocket engines and land on three tripod-like legs.

NASA's three previous Mars landers plopped down in the equatorial desert.

"Bunch of rocks, couple hills in the background," said Edward Weiler, head of NA
SA's
space science division. "Now we're landing near a pole. I mean, I don't know wha
t
we're going to see."

If the mission detects traces of water, it would boost the theory that life coul
d
exist on the planet.

"Biology has taught us that if you have water and energy and some organic compou
nds
you can produce life even in the most extreme environments," said Ed Weiler, NAS
A's
head of space science. "Basically, life can get a foothold almost anywhere. This
forebodes well for the possibility that life existed on Mars sometime in the pas
t or
even perhaps today."

Onboard camera view of booster separation

Eavesdropping on Martian sounds

A 6 1/2 foot (2-meter) robot arm on the lander will be used to scoop up samples
of the
Martian soil for analysis in a mini-laboratory where they will be heated and
electronically sniffed to detect water.

The lander is also equipped with a camera to survey the landing site and a weath
er
station will study the frigid climate. Unlike the Mars Pathfinder, which landed
on
Mars in July 1997, the mission does not carry a rover.

The mission will also give earthlings their first chance to eavesdrop on another
world. The lander will record the sounds of Mars with a microphone donated to NA
SA by
the Planetary Society, a space advocacy group once led by the late Carl Sagan.

Some scientists question whether sound will travel in the thin Martian atmospher
e and,
if it does, whether anything will be heard other than the movement of the Polar
Lander's robot arm and its internal systems.

There's a possibility the sound of dust or sand blowing against the lander might
 be
picked up.

"It was kind of a neat idea," Weiler said. "We don't know what we are going to h
ear,
except I don't think we are going to hear Elvis."

Along for the ride: 2 crash probes

The lander will carry a piggyback mission called Deep Space 2. The goal of that
mission is to release two basketball-sized devices, 10 minutes before touchdown,
 which
will strike the planet's surface at 400 mph to 500 mph (640 to 800 km) and penet
rate
beneath its surface with bullet-like probes.

Sarah Gavit, Deep Space 2 project manager, described the process as "crash landi
ng" on
Mars.

Destination Mars

Like the lander, the twin probes will hunt for water but at a much greater depth
: They
could penetrate as deep as 3 feet (90 cms). The question is whether they will su
rvive
the impact and radio back data.

It's a high-risk experiment called Deep Space 2 that's part of NASA's New Millen
nium
program to test new technologies for future missions.

Despite the ongoing controversy over whether a Mars meteorite contains evidence
of
ancient life, the Polar Lander carries no life-detection instruments.

The only real way to confirm life on Mars, Weiler said, is to fetch dirt and roc
ks.
NASA plans to launch a soil-return mission in 2005; the samples would reach Eart
h in
2008.

---

A FEARFUL SYMMETRY

A TRUE STORY OF ALIEN INTRUSION INTO HUMAN LIVES

By D. Lynne Bishop

A FEARFUL SYMMETRY Copyright 1995 by D. Lynne Bishop

All rights reserved. No part of this publication may be reproduced,
stored in a retrieval system or transmitted in any form or by any
means, electronic or mechanical including photocopying, recording or
otherwise without prior permission of the publisher, except by a
reviewer who may quote brief passages.

First Printing September 1995

Printed in the United States of America

BOOKFINDER PUBLISHING

http://bookfinder.simplenet.com/

Lynne Bishop's home page

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/3862/

---

CHAPTER 17

Epilogue

        This story has no happy ending.  The events recounted in the preceding p
ages are
all true, and we are all real people.  Had this been a fiction novel, as the aut
hor, I
could have chosen an ending to my liking, but our choices in real life are not n
early
so simple, or as easily made.  Almost a year-and-a-half has passed since I made
the
decision to seek answers to a puzzling event that occurred in my past, and that
decision caused a ripple-effect with far-reaching consequences.  It has affected
 the
lives of not only myself, but my family members, spouse, and friends.

        People are being changed by the "alien phenomenon."  Two individuals can
 share an
abduction experience, with one seeing the encounter as benevolent, and the other
person seeing malign intent.  Families and friends can be torn apart through
divisiveness.  Dealing with abductions as a part of one's daily life leads to a
sense
of isolation.  Every aspect of your life is affected by the knowledge that the
alternate reality might occur at any time.  Many individuals welcome their "bene
volent
space brothers," but many others fear the abductions over which they have no con
trol.
For a select few, the phenomenon causes little disruption of their normal lives.
  They
are the lucky ones.

        Over the years, a quasi-terminology has been adopted to describe those
individuals who have been affected by the UFO and alien presence.  "Contactee" h
as
been used to denote a person in willing contact with alien life-forms.  This can
include face-to-face contact, as well as "channeling" and telepathy.  "Abductee"
generally denotes an individual taken against his will by the alien entities.  T
he
term carries with it the connotation of "victim."  A newer term, "Selectee," has
recently been introduced, and attempts to bridge the gap between the other two.
However, this term can imply a hidden meaning of "better than" those who are not
"Selectees."  None of these terms describe me.  I have not initiated willing con
tact
with the creatures; nor am I better than any other person.  My encounters have b
een at
the seeming caprice of the entities, but I have chosen not to be a victim.  I am
,
instead, a participant in an uneasy alliance, an "Experiencer."  Just as a perso
n in
Florida might "experience" a hurricane, or a Californian might "experience" an
earthquake, I have experienced alien intrusion.  As humans, we all have the righ
t to
make choices.  The ability to make choices also carries with it great responsibi
lity
and accountability.  Those of us who have experienced firsthand the effects of a
lien
phenomenon have, perhaps, an even greater responsibility to tell the truth.  Den
ial of
the entire experience is the easiest route, but is an abrogation of that
responsibility.  For that reason, I refuse to deny the existence of the phenomen
on.
It is real.

          There is no consensus of opinion regarding the motives of the entities
, and
little hope of achieving such a consensus until all humankind admits the reality
  of
the UFO/alien phenomenon.  Unless and until we break through the denial of these
creatures' existence, we will not find answers to the mystery.  They may be
"benevolent space brothers," intent on saving the world; or they may be our wors
t
nightmare come true.  We need to get past the concern with where they come from,
 and
start concentrating on what they want.

        It is tempting to believe they come to save mankind--but the question th
at arises
is, "Save mankind from what?"  The world is a complex place, and the desire to h
ave an
intercessionary force is natural--a normal, human feeling.  We do not grow, howe
ver,
if we cannot move past our childish need for being parented.  The aliens are not
 our
mothers and fathers, and should not replace them.  To do this dishonors what we
are:
human beings.  We are not aliens; we are of this world.  It is our home, and its
defense should come through us, not through a creature of questionable motives.

        There is something here, on Earth, that the aliens value.  Whether it is
 a
tangible object, such as the Earth itself, or an abstract form, such as the esse
nce
that makes us human, the creatures want it.  They are actively taking it, and le
aving
no answers behind.  Perhaps it is past the time that we should be actively seeki
ng
those answers.  We need to define the limits of the wager:  just how high are we
willing to let the stakes get, before we pull out?  Are we willing to gamble the
 lives
of our children on the chance these creatures know better than us what is good f
or our
race?

        At the recent UFO Conference in Eureka Springs, an unidentified woman st
ated,
"Why, after all, they just give you a nice sex dream and that's all there is to
it."
I sincerely wish that was the extent of the phenomenon.  This story would have b
een
far different.

        Many lands have traded hands in exchange for colored beads.  I hope we a
sk for
more than a bauble to play with--and that, in selling our souls, we will not reg
ret
the bargain.


>>>>>> ADVERTISEMENT <<<<<<

The UFO Phenomenon, CD Rom

FBI FOIA

This directory has over two thousand FOIA documents which have been
released by the FBI regarding the UFO phenomenon. Pages on MAJESTIC
12, CATTLE MUTILATION, ROSWELL and of course the bulk of the pages
are on UFO's. There is over 2000 pages. Around 145Mb in total.

UFO MOVIES

This directory has a compilation of quick-time and mpeg movies of
actual video footage taken by witness's themselves. Including the
Phoenix sighting of last year, the Mexico City sighting from Aug 97,
STS80 and an interview with Wendle Stevens. Nearly 200meg in total.

UFO PICTURES

This directory is full of hundreds of actual pictures of UFO's taken
by the witness's themselves. There is also a section of alleged
pictures of the Roswell alien. Also there is a section of Alien
Artwork and other such similar items. In total there is over 1750
pictures. Around 115Mb in total.

The CD-Rom is only twelve pounds Sterling, post and packing is free
anywhere in the UK. Overseas customers can also order the CD Rom but
will need to check with me for the cost of postage before ordering.

The CD-Rom also comes supplied with some shareware software where
needed, to view the formats.

To order mail

tedric@earthling.net


----------===============******************===============----------

UNITED KINGDOM UFO NETWORK

STATEMENT
UK-UFO-NW statement: The articles or text appearing within these
pages are not necessarily the views or opinions of United Kingdom UFO
Network.

REPORTS
Please forward all reports to: ufo@holodeck.demon.co.uk

WWW
Visit us on the World Wide Web at
www.holodeck.demon.co.uk

BACK ISSUES & FILES
For information on receiving back issues and other files send mail
with REQUEST INFO in the subject area to: ufo@holodeck.demon.co.uk

IRC - (INTERNET RELAY CHAT)
The meetings take place at 11pm (2300hrs) each and every Saturday
night. Times will vary depending on your location in the world. If you
would like to know the time in your part of the world send a mail to:

ufo@holodeck.demon.co.uk

In the subject section put: IRC TIME INFO

In the message of your mail please put:

a) Your Country
b) Your location
c) Nearest major City

Connecting to our weekly UFO meetings on the IRC (internet relay chat)
is now easier than ever.

**NEW**

Free to you customised MIRC

For some years now you have heard us go on about connecting to our weekly UFO IR
C
meetings which we now hold on the Chatnet servers. You are no doubt also aware t
hat
quite regularly we have special guests join us on channel to answer your questio
ns.
Recent guests have been Joyce Murphy (Beyond Boundaries), Stanton Friedman, Nick
 Pope
(UK MoD), John Carpenter, Kevin Randle, Nick Redfern etc.

How you ever wished that you could join in, but have not really known how too. W
e now
have special customised versions of MIRC for Win 3.1/3.11 & Win 95/98 that until
recently have only been available to our guests.

UK.UFO.NW would like you to join in our weekly IRC meetings. For this reason we
are
making available customised versions of MIRC just for you. They are totally free
, so
simple to use and customised with your details. MIRC will be supplied with full
instructions.

For your customised version of MIRC we need to know the below details.

YOUR NAME:
YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS:
A NICKNAME: (the name you wish to be known by on channel)
An ALTERNATIVE NICKNAME: (incase your first nickname is already being used)
AOL USER: YES/NO
SEND VIA E-MAIL: YES/NO (do you want MIRC sent as an e-mail attachment)
DOWNLOAD FROM WWW: (do you want to download MIRC via web site)

Send your mail with the following subject line: REQUEST MIRC

Send your request to ufo@holodeck.demon.co.uk

A receipt will be sent acknowledging your request. Please be patient while the p
rogram
is customised for you. We are unable to give a specific time of when the program
 will
be ready for each individual.

SUBSCRIPTION INFORMATION
The UK.UFO.NW free fortnightly e-zine covering UFO reports and
information from the UK and around the world is now available by
subscribing to our new List Server.

Send mail to:

listserv@sjuvm.stjohns.edu

In the main body of the mail put:

subscribe ufo fn ln

note: in place of fn put your first name.
      in place of ln put your last name.

For example:

subscribe ufo John Smith

A confirm mail will then be sent to you which you need to reply to
within 48 hours to be put on the e-zine mailing list.

If you have problems you may also subscribe by sending mail to:

ufo@holodeck.demon.co.uk

In the subject section of your mail type: SUBSCRIBE

That's it - see you next time!





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 6

                              Re: Alien Images

From: John Ratcliff <jratcliff@worldnet.att.net>
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 20:53:04 -0600
Fwd Date: Wed, 06 Jan 1999 11:08:54 -0500
Subject: Re: Alien Images



I'm glad people enjoyed the pics. Like most irrational
rationalists I failed to read the fine print, my old
cyberbuddy's name was buried at the bottom of the first picture.
<g> Karl Kofoed is the artist. Karl has had a long interest in
UFOs and is an established science fiction artist, having graced
the cover of numerous book and magazines.

John





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 6

                       Re: C. B. Moore's '49 Sighting

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 22:32:34 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 06 Jan 1999 11:11:45 -0500
Subject: Re: C. B. Moore's '49 Sighting


>From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@aol.com>
>Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1999 22:10:29 EST
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Re: C. B. Moore's '49 Sighting


>>From: Brad Sparks <RB47Expert@aol.com>
>>Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1998 13:31:03 EST
>>Fwd Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 12:21:07 -0500
>>Subject: Re: C. B. Moore's '49 Sighting

>>>From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@aol.com>
>>>Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 14:06:06 EST
>>>Fwd Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 21:00:58 -0500
>>>Subject: Re: C. B. Moore's '49 Sighting

<snip>

>>I very much enjoyed this analysis and appreciate the posting
>>that provided much food for thought in the interesting technical
>>comments made on this classic 1949 case.

>>Brad Sparks

>Likewise Brad. I just don't buy the meteor explanation. It makes
>no sense.

>David Rudiak

I have to agree with Dave on this one for reasons such as the
extreme turn angle, as I outlined in a previous post.

Also, I should point out that the satellite which saw the 1972
meteor was sensing infrared and hence it could detect the meteor
before it got bright enough to be seen and maintained that
detection until shortly after the meteor had cooled and became
invisible to observers on earth.  In other words, the satellite
'saw' the meteor longer than any earth observer could have seen
it.






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 6

               Re: NASA's Stephens Admits to CAUS That He is a

From: Sharon Kardol <sharon@hotmix.com.au>
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 12:03:07 +0800
Fwd Date: Wed, 06 Jan 1999 11:16:19 -0500
Subject: Re: NASA's Stephens Admits to CAUS That He is a



>From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
>Date: Tue, 05 Jan 1999 10:32:16 +0000
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: NASA's Stephens Admits to CAUS That He is a Fraud

>NASA's Stephens Admits to CAUS That He is a Fraud

>>From: Peter Gersten <UFOLAWYER1@aol.com>
>>Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 23:58:36 EST
>>Fwd Date: Tue, 05 Jan 1999 09:35:32 -0500
>>Subject: NASA's Stephens Admits to CAUS That He is a Fraud


>I am stunned.

>If you have been reading this list at all, I think you'll find
>that virtually NO ONE took Stephens seriously, much less thought
>of him as a 'savior'. His "swordsmanship", as you put it, was so
>severely lacking that even most armchair ufologists didn't even
>give him a second thought. The fact that _you_ were fooled
>doesn't mean that the majority was also. With all due respect,
>Mr. Gersten, you need to speak for yourself. The picture you
>paint is one of justification for your own gullibility and you
>can leave me out of it.

>I see no lesson to be learned here at all. To attribute such a
>thing to Stephens gives him far more credit than he deserves and
>affords you too convenient a cushion for your fall from reason.


Absolutely.  I may have defended Mr Stephens right as a person
to have an opinion without it being shot down in flames, as I
would any person.  However myself and most others on the list in
no way viewed Mr Stephens as anything more than a person with an
opinion, and not very well substantiated ones at that.

Sharon





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 6

                           Re: The Stephens Affair

From: Gary Alevy <galevy@pipeline.com>
Date: Tue, 05 Jan 1999 22:09:00 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 06 Jan 1999 11:19:29 -0500
Subject: Re: The Stephens Affair


>Date: Tue, 05 Jan 1999 11:44:36 -0800
>From: Jan Aldrich <jan@cyberzone.net>
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: The Stephens Affair

>If people *really* wanted to learn the facts about UFOs, then
>Loren Gross would be a best selling UFO author, and Art Bell
>would be looking for work elsewhere.

>--
>Jan Aldrich

Jan,

I must say this is truly shocking, _shocking_!
We agree on something, the quality of Loren Gross's UFO series.

List readers who don't know should try to locate Mr. Gross's books -
UFOs: A History.  Each volume covers a chronological period.
Vol. 1 - 1947
Vol. 2 - 1948
Vol. 3 - Jan-June 1949
Vol. 4 - July-Dec 1949
Vol. 5 - Jan-March 1950
Vol. 6 - April-July 1950
Vol. 7 - 1951

I also understand the series has continued through 1956, please
correct me if I am wrong on this.

There is one problem with Mr. Gross's work - it's hard to find?
rare? hidden? out of print?

It used to be available through Arcturus Books but no longer is
to my knowledge and I just looked through their January 1999
Catalog and Backlist.

Perhaps you can remedy this situation to the mutual benefit of
both list readers and Mr. Gross.  Are in touch with Mr. Gross?
Where and for how much can this excellent UFO history series be
purchased?  Could you post this to the list for the benefit of
all.

Gary





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 6

               Re: Military Ability to Detect & Identify UFOs

From: Michael Christol <mchristo@mindspring.com>
Date: Tue, 05 Jan 1999 18:44:45 -0600
Fwd Date: Wed, 06 Jan 1999 12:13:51 -0500
Subject: Re: Military Ability to Detect & Identify UFOs


>Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 21:44:05 -0500
>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
>Subject: Re: Military Ability to Detect & Identify UFOs
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>

>Rotation or non-rotation depends upon your point of view.   For
>a person on th earth a thousand years ago the accepted point of
>view was that th earth was flat and certainly did not move
>(otherwise we would feel the motion!). Everything else moved
>(relative to the stationary earth).

>The Copernicus (and others) advocated the sun as "stationary"
>and the earth going around it. This can only be "seen",
>however, from the point of view of the distant ("fixed"....but
>they are moving) stars.

>Now, from the point of view of an observer stationary with
>respect to the fixed stars, who is positioned far above the
>orbital plane of the solar system, and said observer looking
>down at the north pole of the earth, then the earth rotatesabou
>its axis once every 24 hours.  The moon orbits around the earth
>AND..it turns (about its own axis) slowly as it orbits such that
>one "face" of the moon continually points toward the earth.

>Thus the fact that we see only the "man in the moon" side of the
>moon translates to one rotation about its axis every 28 days
>(about) with respect to the distant stars.

So, from one point of view, I was correct origionally, and yet
at the same time wrong...Thus the other who commented on the
rotation were correct also...

Well, in this situation, it seems to me to be a win - win,
situation...<G>

Am I correct Bruce?

Take Care and Thanks.

REgards, Mike





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 6

                       Art Bell - Friday, January 8/9

From: Stephen G. Bassett <ParadigmRG@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 01:17:39 EST
Fwd Date: Wed, 06 Jan 1999 12:37:31 -0500
Subject: Art Bell - Friday, January 8/9


Disclosure '99?  A Look Back and Ahead

Art Bell - Coast to Coast - January 8/9, 1999

Art Bell will talk with Stephen Bassett in a 5-hour recap and
commentary on what happened and didn't happen in 1998 in the
UFO/extraterrestrial phenomena research field and a look ahead
at the year to come from people directly involved in the issues
and events.

Dropping in with more commentary and important new information
(not in order of appearance) will be:

William Birnes - Publisher of UFO Magazine
http://www.ufomag.com
and co-author of The Day After Roswell

Dr. John Brandenberg - member of the SPSR group, contributor to
The Case for the Face

Joseph Firmage - Founder of USWeb and Author of The Truth
http://www.thewordistruth.org

Dr. Steven Greer --  International Director of CSETI
http://www.cseti.org

Richard Hoagland - Founder The Enterprise Mission
http://www.enterprisemission.com
Author of The Monuments of Mars

Peter Gersten - Founder of UFO/FOIA attorney
http://www.caus.org

Jim Marrs - Author of the Alien Agenda

Stephen Bassett is the founder of Paradigm Research Group, the
author of The Paradigm Clock http://www.paradigmclock.com and
the only registered lobbyist in the United States representing





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 6

                     Re: His Numbers Say We're Not Alone

From: Stig Agermose <Stig_Agermose@online.pol.dk>
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 10:16:43 +0100
Fwd Date: Wed, 06 Jan 1999 12:43:54 -0500
Subject: Re: His Numbers Say We're Not Alone


I wrote:

>From: Stig Agermose <Stig_Agermose@online.pol.dk>
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 01:26:07 +0100
>Subject: His Numbers Say We're Not Alone


>Source: The Seattle Times via the Bergen Record,

>http://www.bergen.com:80/morenews/science0419990104c.htm

>Stig

>***


A more critical review of Aczel's book was sent to the Monthly
Reader, an e-mail discussion group (see below!).

Source: "alt.alien.research".

Stig

***

>From

davidkaiser@my-dejanews.com

Mon Jan 04 17:08:26 1999
Newsgroups: sci.astro,alt.alien.research,sci.math
Subject: Probability 1: Why There Must Be Intelligent Life in the
Universe
From: davidkaiser@my-dejanews.com
Date: Mon, 04 Jan 1999 16:08:26 GMT

Probability 1: Why There Must Be Intelligent Life in the Universe
by Amir D. Aczel
Hardcover, 240 pages, 1997, Amazon.com price $15.40
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0151003769/top100

Amir D. Aczel, a professor of statistics at a small college in
Massachusetts, provides a rudimentary review of various topics
relevant to the search for extraterrestrial life (SETI) such as
the probabilities of extrasolar planets, evolution of DNA, and
lifespan of stars. He is extremely topical, if anything, as he
discusses findings and reports from the early 90s up to 1998.
However I cannot recommend this book to anyone who knows the
Drake equation or anything about SETI going in, as this is at
best an unremarkable introductory work to SETI. I'd recommend
"Are We Alone?"  by  Paul Davies or "Is Anyone Out There?" by
Frank Drake & Dava Sobel above the current work.

Aczel writes best when he describes historical anecdotes: how
Pascal's contribution to probability emerged from a gambling
friend's request, how Gaussian receives credit for a curve that
was described 100 years earlier by an impoverished math tutor.
The history of science and mathematics is always interesting as
it provides a context within which our now-everyday concepts
developed, revealing the incremental nature of the innumerable
aspects of scientific discoveries we take for granted.

The title of the work -- Probability 1 - refers to his
conclusion that mathematically the probability of life existing
elsewhere in the universe is 100% likely, or nearly so. He
supports this claim with a dubious calculation. Essentially he
says that the probability of life out there = 1 - ((a-1)/(a))^b
where ((a-1)/(a)) is the probability of life existing anywhere
and where the power b is the number of anywheres (stars) in the
universe. The term heads toward zero as a and b approach
infinity.  b can at least be calculated with some degree of
accuracy. He uses the value 30 x 10^24 as the number of stars in
the universe. A reasonable assumption, I suppose. However the
entire equation hangs on the value of   (a-1)/a  which he sets
as 0.00000000000005, give or take a few zeros. This value is not
yet known to any degree of accuracy and thus giving it a value
and using that value concretely does not clear up the matter --
though it does provide a catchy title for a book.

And even if the probability of life elsewhere in the universe is
1, do we really care if bacteria developed in a galaxy so remote
from us (essentially meaning any galaxy outside of our own) as
we will never be able to examine it under the microscope or
communicate with its distant descendants. What we'd like to know
is the probability of life (intelligent life in particular)
within 50 or so light-years of Earth. That cannot be determined
on a slide rule. The only way we will know during our lifetime
whether life exists in the universe is through observation --
spying on planets with telescopes and listening for intersolar
radio traffic...

-David Kaiser


Recommended books on search for extraterrestrial life/intelligence

Are We Alone?: Philosophical Implications of the Discovery of
Extraterrestrial
Life    by Paul Davies
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0465004199/top100

Is Anyone Out There?: The Scientific Search for Extraterrestrial
Intelligence
by Frank Drake & Dava Sobel
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0385311222/top100

Carl Sagan's Universe
Yervant Terzian, Elizabeth M. Bilson (Eds.)
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0521576032/top100


PLEASE FEEL FREE TO COMMENT ON THIS BOOK OR THIS REVIEW!

Next month (February):  The Universe Unfolding -- Hermann Bondi(editor),
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0198511884/top100


TO JOIN MONTHLY READER, a discussion group of non-fiction books,
most dealing with physics and astronomy, send any message to

monthlyreader-subscribe@egroups.com

or go to this  e-group's home page at

http://www.egroups.com/list/monthlyreader

Books change once a month, but discussion of past books is
allowed. Any who's read this month's book is encouraged to
contribute to the discussion!



-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/       Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 6

               Re: Military Ability to Detect & Identify UFOs

From: Josh Goldstein <clearlt@pacbell.net>
Date: Wed, 06 Jan 1999 05:05:19 -0800
Fwd Date: Wed, 06 Jan 1999 12:47:40 -0500
Subject: Re: Military Ability to Detect & Identify UFOs


Well, we have finally revealed that Mr."Geek Squad" Stephens is
a weird manipulator with a malicious nature. Hopefully the end
of another bizarre thread and another whacko on Art Bell's show
(even too weird for Bell and Hoagland delusions).

I had to scan through the moon rotation question for some time.
Thankfully someone posted the basis of the dark side. Now that
thread is over. However, the heading of this thread caused me to
wonder who on this list has knowledge of NORAD (Fence)? I don't
know if the fence name has any reality. For a long time I have
wondered what NORAD can see related to UFOs. Do they have visual
capability for radar stealth UFOs? A few years ago I spoke to
some people in NORAD but got the UFO denial and the claim that
they don't have the ability to detect them.<g> Who knows what
NORAD sees? Please only post highly classified data with source
authority <g>.

As for Stephens' shuttle UFO comments. He failed to mention that
STS-48 was over Australia when it appeared a beam shot up from
the earth. The darkest conjecture is that the beam was shot up
from the Pine Gap facility (the Area 51 of Oz) as part of our
ongoing war with aliens. The UFO or ice chunk darted away just
in time; a great evasive action. Whatever it was, it sure looked
great on video.

Josh Goldstein





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 6

                Re: Robert A.M. Stephens Exposed as a Fraud?

From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 12:42:56 EST
Fwd Date: Wed, 06 Jan 1999 17:39:48 -0500
Subject: Re: Robert A.M. Stephens Exposed as a Fraud?


>Date: Mon, 04 Jan 1999 23:49:34 -0500
>To: "UFO UpDates Subscribers":;
>From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: UFO UpDate: Robert A.M. Stephens Exposed as a Fraud?

>Source: http://www.borderlands.com/robertfraud.htm


Hello List, et. al -

This revelation about Stephens bothered me a great deal, but not
for the reasons you would think.

>I then went after the SEAL Team-3 claim. There are many sites on
>the internet hosted by former Navy SEALs which enjoy exposing
>those who make such false claims. Here is a list:

>Fake SEALs and Phoney Frogs
>Phonies and Scumbags
>Fake SEALs
>Wannabe Veterans
>Mike's US Navy SEAL Homepage

>There may be more. I then emailed ALL of them asking for
>confirmation whether Robert A.M. Stephens had or had not been a
>Navy SEAL. Here are a couple responses so far:

 ==================
>From: "VeriSEAL" <agile@ix.netcom.com>
>Organization: Phony SEAL Hall of Shame
>To: Michael Theroux <director@borderlands.com>
>Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 20:49:52 +0000
>Subject: Re: More info from ROBERT STEPHENS
>Reply-to: agile@ix.netcom.com
>Priority: urgent
>X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.01b)

>Michael,

>All of your e-mail info on Stephens has been forwarded to about
>a dozen *REAL* former SEALs. What you have in the form of
>Stephens is a 100% bonafide FRAUD.

>Look for incoming messages from assorted retired Viet-era SEALs
>who will likely be more than interested in Stephens. By the way,
>the only two Teams in existence during WW-Vietnam were 1 and 2.
>The owner of the Hall of Shame at the Teams Homepage (
>http://The-South.Com/TheTeams ) is retired Senior Chief Kent
>Dillingham, one of the plankowners of ST-3 in 1983. That means
>he was one of the original founding SEALs for that Team.>>

These relevations make me embarrassed to suggest that I served
in Vietnam as a helicopter pilot. Not that I regret that
service, but because so many people in today's world are
suggesting that they served in Vietnam. It calls all of us into
question. People begin to wonder, is he just another "wannabe"
who is inventing his Vietnam service to impress.

I believe it was in San Antonio in which the director of a
Vietnam War museum was forced to resign because he claimed to
have been a Vietnam veteran, but was exposed as a fraud. His
deputy director was also forced to resign when it was learned
he, too, was a fraud.

Can I prove that I served in Vietnam? Certainly. But should I
have to. And this relates to the entire UFO community. How many
times have people come forward claiming training, education,
government connects, only to be exposed as frauds. I can think
of a dozen or more, some of whom are still respected by people
on this list. Don Schmitt, for example, still lectures about
UFOs and Roswell, but why should we listen to a thing he has to
say?

There must come a point where we say that it is enough. If you
lied about your education, your employment, your secret drug
investigation experience, we are not going to believe anything
else you say UNTIL we can verify it.

Sorry for the rant, but this is becoming ridiculous. We still
argue about the authenticity of the Santilli film when we have
seen the lies he told about the film canister markings and that
the tent footage is a fraud. He has not produced the cameraman,
or a statement from his that isn't riddled with errors and
mistakes. Maybe we haven't proved the autopsy a fraud, but we
don't have to. Santilli has to prove it authentic and not only
hasn't he, he has done everything he can to make sure that no
one else can do it.

So, before we accept anything, let's make sure the facts are there.

KRandle





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 6

                           Re: The Stephens Affair

From: Geri & Alfred Webre <Ecotoday@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 13:20:52 EST
Fwd Date: Wed, 06 Jan 1999 17:43:28 -0500
Subject: Re: The Stephens Affair


>Date: Tue, 05 Jan 1999 11:44:36 -0800
>From: Jan Aldrich <jan@cyberzone.net>
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: The Stephens Affair

>Today, the ufo field is swept by the "revelation" that Stephens
>is a fraud. Duh!

>Several people, including yours truly, pointed out that
>Stephens' supposed inside information was bogus. However,
>incredibly what did we get. "You shouldn't diss Mr. Stephens.
>He has only been in the field 70 days. Cut him some slack."

Jan - Ouch. That last sideswipe hurt, since we were its authors,
and it was made prior to hearing his radio show when we realized
what we were dealing with. Still, we think a window of innocent
before proven guilty is in the long term a healthy one.
Otherwise, UFO activists may become the new thought police
themselves.

Stephens appears to be a "guided missile," a spreader of
mis/disinformation whose function it is to get the UFO community
confused and attacking each other. "Guided missiles" also appear
in other fields of public interest research, such as
assassination research.

The best way for the UFO community to understand the technology
of "guided missiles" or agents of mis/disinformation - a
phenomenon of the UFO field - is not to awfulize and attack
other UFO students.

It is to study the characteristics of guided missiles like
Stephens, and understand what is their source, where do they
come from, and what is their profile.

This way, the capacity of an individual mis/disinformer to
ruffle our conversation is reduced, because we can
systematically understand them as a phenomenon, not as specific
individuals.

If you will notice the subtlety of our letter, we alluded to the
possibility that Stephens was indeed a mis/disinformation agent
("Colonel (sic)"). We felt that at that point due process had
not yet taken its course.

 We too are students of the phenomenon of disinformation agents.
And sometimes it is wiser to observe than to react prematurely.

In some ways, Stephens has given us a productive research case
of how the mis/disinformation phenomenon works.

This is an alternative, positive way of looking at the Stephens
hiccup.

Geri & Alfred Webre





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 6

                     Re: Art Bell - Friday, January 8/9

From: James Bond Johnson <JBONJO@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 14:02:53 EST
Fwd Date: Wed, 06 Jan 1999 17:51:48 -0500
Subject: Re: Art Bell - Friday, January 8/9

>From: Stephen G. Bassett <ParadigmRG@aol.com>
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 01:17:39 EST
>Subject: Art Bell - Friday, January 8/9


>Disclosure '99?  A Look Back and Ahead

>Art Bell - Coast to Coast - January 8/9, 1999

>Art Bell will talk with

<snip>

>Stephen Bassett is the founder of Paradigm Research Group, the
>author of The Paradigm Clock http://www.paradigmclock.com and
>the only registered lobbyist in the United States representing
>extraterrestrial phenomena research and activist organizations.


This statement is slightly in error.

My personal lobbyist, William Casselman II, long officially
registered on my behalf with both houses of Congress, is very
much involved with representing on the Hill the interests of
RPIT (Roswell Photo Interpretation Team) in its current Roswell
Revisitation Project.

As it has been reported on UFO UpDates, my members of congress
have been petitioned to insist that the US Government without
further delay "unlock the Roswell craft garage" and permit an
open and complete inspection of the announced "captured"
wreckage, all designed to solve the Roswell Riddle after 51
years!

Casselman is well known and highly respected on the Hill since
he was chief counsel to Vice President Ford and counsel to
President Ford, as well as chief counsel to the General Services
Administration -- government real estate landlord -- and White





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 6

                           Loren Gross' Histories

From: Jan Aldrich <jan@cyberzone.net>
Date: Wed, 06 Jan 1999 14:17:33 -0800
Fwd Date: Wed, 06 Jan 1999 17:56:50 -0500
Subject: Loren Gross' Histories


Greeting List,

Loren Gross' works on UFOs are not generally available. I echo
Bob Girard's comments,  "This is the single most important work
every done on UFOs.  This series of books is ten times better
than the next nearest work."

Re-entitled 'The Fifth Horseman of the Apocalypse' after Dr.
Lincoln LaPaz's enigmatically statement about UFOs, the series
of approximately 100-page-booklets is now up  to 44 volumes with
the last book dealing with the middle of 1958.

Girard still has a few booklets from the 1947 to 1951 era, but
no longer has them all:

Arcturus Book Inc.
1443 SE Port St. Lucie Blvd
Port St. Lucie, FL 34952

Phone (561) 398-0796Fax  (561) 337-1701
E-mail:  rgirard321@aol.com

'Charles Fort, The Fortean Society, and UFOs' is available from
my address below for $6.00 post paid anywhere in the world.
This last is a very early work, nearly 14 years old.

Girard attempted to publish the later volumes in the series.
The amount of interest was almost nil.  Girard and I both wish
to get these books published and made available to a wider
audience.

Project 1947 is a volunteer effort.  Candy Peterson has
volunteered to place a number of these volumes on the computer.
Due to her efforts we have the 1947 volume and most of the 1957
volumes (10 in all) on computer word processing files.  Candy
has really render an important service here. Loren uses a
typewriter to turn out these wonderful volumes. (The discovery
of huge amounts of new material for 1957 meant that revisions
are necessary.)  Loren wants to revise his early volumes, also.

There several schemes to get these things published.  Perhaps
even on CDrom/DVD.  What is needed is some show of support for
such a project.

Loren does not write these books for money.  The writes for the
same reason that most true scholars do, to chronicle the
significant events in a subject.  He sends free to a small group
of UFO researchers.

--
Jan Aldrich
Project 1947
http://www.iufog.org/project1947/
P. O. Box 391, Canterbury, CT 06331, USA





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 6

                             Re: Hynek & Michel

From: Bruno Mancusi <Bruno.Mancusi@com.mcnet.ch>
Date: Wed, 06 Jan 1999 20:43:52 +0100
Fwd Date: Wed, 06 Jan 1999 20:35:19 -0500
Subject: Re: Hynek & Michel


>Date: Tue, 05 Jan 1999 22:04:08 +0100
>From: Alain Stauffer <astauffer@infomaniak.ch>
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Hynek & Michel

>>Date: Mon, 04 Jan 1999 13:15:32 -0800
>>From: Jan Aldrich <jan@cyberzone.net
>>To: updates@globalserve.net
>>Subject: Hynek and Michel

>>Hynek's visit with Michel probably took place in 1958 or
>>1959 after the Michel's book had been translated into
>>English by CSI-NY.

>According to Jacques Vallee's journal (Forbidden Science, The
>Vallee Living Trust Ed., 1992), Hynek came in Paris in 1958

<snip>

Yes, but according to Michel, it was in 1959... See Aime Michel,
'Mysterieux objets celestes', Seghers, Paris 1977, p. 326 (it's
the second edition, the first, in 1958, was translated in
English as 'Flying Saucers and the Straight-Line Mystery'). The
visit is also described in 'The Edge of Reality' (p. 225 of the
French edition).

In December 1990, Yves Bosson and Michel Hertzog interviewed
Michel who said: "I don't remember if it was in '58 or '59, I
think it was in '59" ('Ovni-Presence' #50, April 1993, p. 14).

Regards






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 6

               Re: NASA's Stephens Admits to CAUS That He is a

From: Peter Gersten <UFOLAWYER1@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 01:46:34 EST
Fwd Date: Wed, 06 Jan 1999 20:36:18 -0500
Subject: Re:  NASA's Stephens Admits to CAUS That He is a

 [Non-subscriber Post - Open Mailer - Insert Foot...]


>From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
>Date: Tue, 05 Jan 1999 10:32:16 +0000
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: NASA's Stephens Admits to CAUS That He is a Fraud

>I am stunned.

Sorry to hear that. I am sure it will pass. Roger Evans? Do not
think I have heard that name before. But I am sure it is simply
an oversight on my part. So please enlighten me as to your
contribution to the UFO movement..other than representing the
outrage of 'your list' to my use of the pronoun 'we.'

>If you have been reading this list at all, I think you'll find
>that virtually NO ONE took Stephens seriously, much less thought
>of him as a 'savior'.

You got me there....I do not read your list.* Didn't know it was
required reading. Would have saved me alot of time and
trouble...huh? Can I use you for my trials? I wouldn't need a
jury with your talents. Can't wait to tell 'my list' that 'your
list' is so wise. Can 'my list' join 'your list' and watch you
guys solve the UFO problem. Probably wouldn't have to bring any
more FOIA lawsuits. Or is it one of those intellectual elitist
lists that love to criticize others?

>His "swordsmanship", as you put it, was so severely lacking
>that even most armchair ufologists didn't even give him a second
>thought.

Really now? Armchair ufologists? Not even a second thought? So
why are you e-mailing me? Why give me a second thought...as far
as I recall I have never given you one.

 [Legal 'Eagle' Peter Gersten is not paying attention to the
  evidence - Roger didn't send him the 'offending' mail _I_ did,
  as a 'Bcc;' --ebk]

>The fact that _you_ were fooled doesn't mean that the majority
>was also.

How was I fooled my friend? Majority of what? My 6500 members?
How many People are on your list? Did your poll the list? And
why would I care whether 'your list' was fooled or not. My
CAUSupdates go to CAUS members which, the last I looked, you are
not a member of. Doubt that 'updates@globalserve' is either. So
what's your point?

 [No? There are about 200 posts - directly from your list -
  sitting in my archive here. Missing the evidentiary clues
  again Mr. Gersten? And I'm quite sure that a few of the
  _many_ knowledge-able subscribers to UpDates will be most
  happy to respond to you via this List. I'll be sure to pass
  them on to you. --ebk]

>With all due respect, Mr. Gersten, you need to speak for
>yourself. The picture you paint is one of justification for
>your own gullibility and you can leave me out of it.

You have been left out of it...by your own choice. Unless of
CAUS you have some UFO accomplishments that I am not aware of.
So why are you getting involved now? You can be sure that my
'we' had nothing to do with someone as intelligent and wise as
you. Are you one of those armchair ufologists you referred to
earlier..or simply someone who only comes out of the cracks to
say 'I told you so?"

-------------------------------------------------------------
* [And why would you - too much 'negativity' coming your way?
   But in fact you have witness:

>From: UFOLAWYER1@aol.com
>Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 20:27:07 EDT
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Seeking Info on Wurtsmith 1975 Sighting


>In a message dated 6/24/98 3:38:44 PM US Mountain Standard Time,
>updates@globalserve.net writes:

>>I'm looking for a reported UFO incident relating to Wurtsmith,

>>Michigan in 1975.  I need to know the exact date or dates and
>> what was believed to have happened.

>Diana,

>I have the documents on Wurtsmith and will send them to you.






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 6

               Re: Military Ability to Detect & Identify UFOs

From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
Date: Wed, 06 Jan 1999 13:21:48 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 06 Jan 1999 20:55:29 -0500
Subject: Re: Military Ability to Detect & Identify UFOs


>Date: Wed, 06 Jan 1999 05:05:19 -0800
>From: Josh Goldstein <clearlt@pacbell.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: Military Ability to Detect & Identify UFOs

<snip>

>I had to scan through the moon rotation question for some time.
>Thankfully someone posted the basis of the dark side. Now that
>thread is over. However, the heading of this thread caused me to
>wonder who on this list has knowledge of NORAD (Fence)? I don't
>know if the fence name has any reality. For a long time I have
>wondered what NORAD can see related to UFOs. Do they have visual
>capability for radar stealth UFOs? A few years ago I spoke to
>some people in NORAD but got the UFO denial and the claim that
>they don't have the ability to detect them.<g> Who knows what
>NORAD sees? Please only post highly classified data with source
>authority <g>.

Josh-

While the detailed capability of NORAD is highly classified, it
isn't a complete mystery.

While the question of whether or not UFOs have "stealth"
technology remains open, I would note that there are a large
number of UFO cases that are primarily (or completely) radar
based.  So it would appear that UFOs, or at least a segment of
them, aren't able to use stealth to avoid radar detection.  On
the other hand, these cases often do not correspond to visual
sightings, so the question of "stealth" remains open (assuming
we're talking about objects that reflect radar waves).

"Fastwalker" has been identified by some as the NORAD term for
an unidentified radar sighting, and in a quick search I found a
post from a
year ago that discusses one such sighting:

=======begin======

Posted by:  reri6@rocketmail.com

>NORAD's ballistic missile monitoring systemm detected a UFO (by
>the true meaning of the word) the emerged from deep space,
>entered Earth's atmosphere, passed within 15 miles of one of the
>defense satellites, and went back out into deep space.  NORAD
>immmediately classified the report, most likely for fear that
>the soviets had developed a new typ of ballistic weapon that
>could be fired from space, which is probably why John could not
>get any information on it through FOIA. The information should
>be available, or at least someone in NORADD has loose lips,
>since the incident was featured on a Discovery channel special
>called UFO: Down to Earth. Copies are available from the
>Discovery channel. The object was never identified, but numerous
>reports were filed. Diagrams exist tracking the objects path
>through the atmosphere. I have recently sent a FOIA request to
>the DoD and am currently waiting for a reply.


=======end=======






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 6

               Re: Military Ability to Detect & Identify UFOs

From: Terry Blanton <commengr@bellsouth.net>
Date: Wed, 06 Jan 1999 15:34:01 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 06 Jan 1999 20:56:48 -0500
Subject: Re: Military Ability to Detect & Identify UFOs


>Date: Wed, 06 Jan 1999 05:05:19 -0800
>From: Josh Goldstein <clearlt@pacbell.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: Military Ability to Detect & Identify UFOs

>Well, we have finally revealed that Mr."Geek Squad" Stephens is
>a weird manipulator with a malicious nature. Hopefully the end
>of another bizarre thread and another whacko on Art Bell's show
>(even too weird for Bell and Hoagland delusions).

>I had to scan through the moon rotation question for some time.
>Thankfully someone posted the basis of the dark side. Now that
>thread is over. However, the heading of this thread caused me to
>wonder who on this list has knowledge of NORAD (Fence)? I don't
>know if the fence name has any reality. For a long time I have
>wondered what NORAD can see related to UFOs. Do they have visual
>capability for radar stealth UFOs? A few years ago I spoke to
>some people in NORAD but got the UFO denial and the claim that
>they don't have the ability to detect them.<g>Who knows what
>NORAD sees? Please only post highly classified data with source
>authority <g>.

<snip>

NORAD's responsibility primarily deals with looking for craft
coming over the Artic and utilizes over-the-horizon radar and
other terrestrial based systems mostly in North America.  It is
the US and Air Force Space Command that controls most of the
space-based military assets.  A web search on each of these
departments will provide a great deal of information.

Speaking of information, I traced an apparently unlisted phone
number given by Stephens (406-745-3818) to Saint Ignatius, MT.
Saint Ignatius is about 30 miles north of Missoula.  Also,
Internic indicates that the email address he used on newsgroups
(robert@digisys.net) originates in Kalispell, MT.  His other
email address (STI3818@montana.com) does not return an id on all
reverse searches of that address.  But note the use of the 3818
digits. Indeed, the URL www.montana.com is the state of
Montana's web site (go figure).  Maybe he's doing some
consulting work for MT and set himself up a temporary email
address for this hoax.

BTW, Saint Ignatius is in the heart of the Flathead Indian
Reservation and near the National Bison Range.  No wonder we
were so easily buffaloed by him. <ducking and running>

Hey, what ya wanna bet that he was involved in the EQ
Pegasi/Paul Dore hoax?!?






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 6

                    Re: Archive Footage of J.Allen Hynek?

From: Philip Mantle <el51@dial.pipex.com>
Date: Thu, 07 Jan 1999 03:48:10 +0000
Fwd Date: Wed, 06 Jan 1999 21:02:44 -0500
Subject: Re: Archive Footage of J.Allen Hynek?


Dear colleagues,

A TV production company by the name of Union-SKYLINE in the UK
are urgently looking for archive film footage of the late Dr
Hynek.

Should anyone have such material available or know where it can be
located, could they please contact:

Gala Carr at:gala@unionskyline3.demon.co.uk

Many thanks,

Philip Mantle.





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 6

                     Re: Art Bell - Friday, January 8/9

From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net>
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 16:36:10 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 06 Jan 1999 21:11:41 -0500
Subject: Re: Art Bell - Friday, January 8/9

>From: Stephen G. Bassett <ParadigmRG@aol.com>
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 01:17:39 EST
>Subject: Art Bell - Friday, January 8/9

>Disclosure '99?  A Look Back and Ahead

>Art Bell - Coast to Coast - January 8/9, 1999

>Art Bell will talk with Stephen Bassett in a 5-hour recap and
>commentary on what happened and didn't happen in 1998 in the
>UFO/extraterrestrial phenomena research field and a look ahead
>at the year to come from people directly involved in the issues
>and events.

>Dropping in with more commentary and important new information
>(not in order of appearance) will be:

>William Birnes - Publisher of UFO Magazine
>http://www.ufomag.com
>and co-author of The Day After Roswell

>Dr. John Brandenberg - member of the SPSR group, contributor to
>The Case for the Face

>Joseph Firmage - Founder of USWeb and Author of The Truth
>http://www.thewordistruth.org

>Dr. Steven Greer --  International Director of CSETI
>http://www.cseti.org

>Richard Hoagland - Founder The Enterprise Mission
>http://www.enterprisemission.com
>Author of The Monuments of Mars

>Peter Gersten - Founder of UFO/FOIA attorney
>http://www.caus.org

===================================================>

Hi All,

LMAO! _These_ are the guys who are going to evaluate last years
progress (or lack of it) in ufology?

Isn't this also a list of names of the same guys that are at the
root of _what_is_wrong_ with ufology?

And Art Bell is hosting! Oh man, this is just too rich. Excuse
me while I drop off my chair (again) and roll around on the
floor laughing my keester off.

There is a physics lesson hidden in here somewhere. Let me see
if I can sus it out, . . .

A. Art Bell is the most full of sh*t of the lot.

B. So it stands to reason that he has more 'mass' than the
others.

C. Therefore, his gravitational pull on the other smaller
'turds' causes them to, . . .

D. gravitate towards Bell. - Where, . . .

E. . . . they eventually assume permanent orbits around their
primary.

How was that?

A good 'empirical' test of this theory would be to flush, and
then carefully observe - a toilet. (Following a substantial
bowel movement.) Same 'principle' applies here with only one
glaring exception: *Unless you are South of the Equator. In
which case the "planetoids" will orbit the "main mass" in a
counter clockwise direction!

Bell
Greer
Gersten
Hoagland

Talk about "piled high and deep!"

Actually I'm still waiting to see if Bell ever pays a price for
the Hale-Bopp/Mothership series. There _is_ a connection between
that and the deaths in the Heavens Gate Cult that neither one of
those two irresponsible bozos (Bell and the other jamoke from
the "Nearsight Institute" that propagated that hoax - apologies
to Bob Shell for using his 'moniker') ever had to answer for.
People died.

No one involved in the perpetration/propagation of that
disinformation was ever called to task. Phoney photos from
(allegedly) a Hawiian observatory showing the 'companion' were
circulated worldwide, the constant barrage of programs from Bell
that were _dedicated_ to Hale-Bopp (or Hale-Mary as Bell so
cutely christened it.) After the dust settled there were very
real bodies left behind in that little fiasco. But hush, hush,
mums the word! Remember never to mention any possible
connections.

Nor were they ever called to task for the 'side show' that he
and Hoagland staged in Phoenix. (Which helped to
create/contribute to a carnival atmosphere around a
"potentially" significant case) They made a slew of absurd
"predictions" on national radio (none of which ever transpired)
and no one ever mentions it or questions it. Just move on and
feed on the next thing.  It's 'Short Attention Span Theatre' for
the masses.

If it wasn't for Bell, Hoagland would be retired from ufology,
Greer would be just another 'wrong number' and Gersten wouldn't
have a shot at further spreading his particular/peculiar brand
of popular fluff.

It's just one side show after another.  Just show after show,
after show, year in, year out, ... well, you get the picture.
Bell is the King of the "Cliffhangers." He's a master showman
and he knows how to work a crowd better than any side show
carny. But in the final analysis that is all that he is; just
another side show carny.

It's true. Most comedy (things that are funny) have tragedy at
the core. Brings images of Emmet Kelly to mind. Actually, that
is _my_ image/evaluation/portrayal of the guys on Bells ufology
evaluation committee.

A bunch of tragic clowns who get to laugh all the way to the
bank. At the public's expense.

Peace,

John Velez (Speaking _strictly_ for myself. No response
necessary)
________________________________________________
                                jvif@spacelab.net
INTRUDERS FOUNDATION/ABDUCTION INFORMATION CENTER
                            http://www.if-aic.com
"Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind."





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 6

               Re: Military Ability to Detect & Identify UFOs

From: Bill Weber <koran@cchat.com>
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 17:24:12 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 06 Jan 1999 21:41:48 -0500
Subject: Re: Military Ability to Detect & Identify UFOs



>Date: Tue, 05 Jan 1999 18:44:45 -0600
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Michael Christol <mchristo@mindspring.com>
>Subject: Re: Military Ability to Detect & Identify UFOs

>>Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 21:44:05 -0500
>>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
>>Subject: Re: Military Ability to Detect & Identify UFOs
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>

>>Rotation or non-rotation depends upon your point of view.   For
>>a person on th earth a thousand years ago the accepted point of
>>view was that th earth was flat and certainly did not move
>>(otherwise we would feel the motion!). Everything else moved
>>(relative to the stationary earth).

>>The Copernicus (and others) advocated the sun as "stationary"
>>and the earth going around it. This can only be "seen",
>>however, from the point of view of the distant ("fixed"....but
>>they are moving) stars.

>>Now, from the point of view of an observer stationary with
>>respect to the fixed stars, who is positioned far above the
>>orbital plane of the solar system, and said observer looking
>>down at the north pole of the earth, then the earth rotatesabou
>>its axis once every 24 hours.  The moon orbits around the earth
>>AND..it turns (about its own axis) slowly as it orbits such that
>>one "face" of the moon continually points toward the earth.

>>Thus the fact that we see only the "man in the moon" side of the
>>moon translates to one rotation about its axis every 28 days
>>(about) with respect to the distant stars.

>So, from one point of view, I was correct origionally, and yet
>at the same time wrong...Thus the other who commented on the
>rotation were correct also...

>Well, in this situation, it seems to me to be a win - win,
>situation...<G>

>Am I correct Bruce?


Well...yeah, but unfortunately, from the earth's perspective,
then, the sun rotates around it.  If your wife, (as earth),
stands in the center of a room and swings you, (the moon),
around on a rope while you sit in your rolling office chair,
don't attempt to prove your original premise by keeping your
face, (the bright side of the moon), pointed in the direction of
one of the walls.  This is terribly painful, eventually
requiring a neck brace and a possible hip replacement -
depending on how determined you are.  If it doesn't feel good -
don't do it!

Yours,

Bill







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 6

                       Earth Changes TV/Breaking News

From: Mitch Battros <earthcng@earthlink.net>
Date: Wed, 06 Jan 1999 15:12:14 -0800
Fwd Date: Wed, 06 Jan 1999 21:46:57 -0500
Subject: Earth Changes TV/Breaking News


[Non-Subscriber Post]

Feds take local stations by surprise...1/6/99
by Mitch Battros, ECTV

It appears the Federal Government, mainly the Emergency
Management Office, surprised local stations around the nation
with the strange and new (E.A.S.) Emergency Action Service
announcement that read "A CIVIL AUTHORITY HAS ISSUED A REQUIRED
TEST" which was scheduled for 30 minutes as opposed to the 30
second test we are all familiar with. It was reported by James
Heecock, Program Director of the local NBC affiliate KING 5
television in Seattle, Washington "This was a new Emergency
Announcement System that was implemented in January 1998. It
took us by surprise. It appears they want to WHIP US INTO
SHAPE".

Similar stories from ABC, CBS, and FOX came in. John Walters,
Engineer Director of CBS affiliate KIRO channel 7, also in
Seattle stated "part of the new system allows E.A.S. to occur
over cable stations without notice, which was not in effect
until this month. This was part of the problem and what caught
us off guard ".

Having spoke with other stations in the area as well as emails
from all over the nation, it did in deed catch many affiliates
unprepared. Many questions still go unanswered. 1) Is there an
increase threat to our nation, whether it be Y2K, Earthquakes,
Volcanoes, or Terrorist Threats. One thing is for sure, we have
not seen the last of an ongoing intense effort to increase
notification of disaster, in perhaps our very near future.

Mitch Battros
Producer - Earth Changes TV
http://www.earthchangesTV.com





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 6

                     Re: Art Bell - Friday, January 8/9

From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net>
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 23:00:41 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 06 Jan 1999 23:56:24 -0500
Subject: Re: Art Bell - Friday, January 8/9


>There is a physics lesson hidden in here somewhere. Let me see
>if I can sus it out, . . .

>A. Art Bell is the most full of sh*t of the lot.

>B. So it stands to reason that he has more 'mass' than the
>others.

>C. Therefore, his gravitational pull on the other smaller
>'turds' causes them to, . . .

>D. gravitate towards Bell. - Where, . . .

>E. . . . they eventually assume permanent orbits around their
>primary.

>How was that?

John already gets my vote for the funniest (and truest) post of
1999. Nobody's going to top this!

Greg Sandow





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 6

                           'Pumpkin Seed' Aircraft

From: Larry Clark <lclark@ibm.net>
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 19:32:03 -0000
Fwd Date: Wed, 06 Jan 1999 23:39:11 -0500
Subject: 'Pumpkin Seed' Aircraft


Question: Has anyone heard of any experimental government
aircraft as referred to as 'pumpkin seeds'?

Larry Clark
www.nymufon.org





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 6

                           Re: The Stephens Affair

From: John W. Ratcliff <jratclif@inlink.com>
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 20:21:34 -0600
Fwd Date: Wed, 06 Jan 1999 23:53:07 -0500
Subject: Re: The Stephens Affair


Geri & Alfred Webre <Ecotoday@aol.com> wrote:

>Stephens appears to be a "guided missile," a spreader of
>mis/disinformation whose function it is to get the UFO community
>confused and attacking each other. "Guided missiles" also appear
>in other fields of public interest research, such as
>assassination research.

Sigh, I guess it's worthwhile to voice a point of view that
doesn't have roots in the mythological machinery of Art Bell,
Rense, and others who are in the field of paranormal and
conspiratorial entertainment. Now that the Stephen's affair is
in a brief lull (probably not over, just a strange, psychic,
synchronistic hunch I've got), I feel compelled to make some
common sense observations.

To begin with, I am mildly offended/amused to hear the
suggestion that the likes of Art Bell and Richard Hoagland
constitute the "UFO community", since for those who consider
themselves at the same time, gasp, both rational _and_
interested in the UFO phenomenon these two seem, to us, more
like the ugly backwards cousins who had to ride the little bus
to school.

There is a dichotomy here, between those who have examined the
evidence for UFOs and concluded that some kind of phenomenon
does in fact exist and those who see vast conspiracies in the
ramblings of the psychotic played backwards on the radio. We
didn't lose touch with our rational mind, didn't join a cult,
and still believe in bizarre concepts like reason, logic,
rational skepticism and the rules of evidence.

In light of the recent Stephens fiasco I find it sad to hear
comments like those quoted at the top of this message. What
irony that some internet geek pokes fun at Hoagland/Bell/Rense
they see it is yet _more_ evidence of conspiracy. The same
bizarre logic that allows them to spin fantastic conspiracies
allows them to see even _more_ when they are made fun of in
public!? And wasn't Heavens Gate enough?

The only evidence we have to examine surrounding the Stephens
affair is Stephens himself. What we find is a long time
internet protagonist, someone who claimed in public postings a
belief in UFOs, yet at the same time was skeptical of the more
outrageous claims of the fringe. Stephens appears to have been
involved the geek squad, a highly sarcastic group of internet
gear heads for some time. Stephens interaction with the UFO
mythos making machinery over the last few weeks appears to have
been geared towards spreading fresh mythology while at the same
time criticizing certain members of that media delete.

Does anyone here have any experience with the internet? No one
has followed the rantings and ravings of the various internet
UFO newsgroups? None have read the writings of Robert Anton
Wilson, the Church of the Sub Genius, or any other guerilla
ontologists?

I have witnessed internet personalities intentionally morph
themselves online. Acting the enraged UFO believer fanatic in
one message, and then the anal retentive arch skeptic in the
next. I've dealt with people who took great pleasure in
crafting online persona's _for their own personal amusement_!
Ranting, raving, frothing at the mouth in one message and then
sane and sober in the next.

Does Stephens fit this profile by his behavior? Is he someone
who takes pleasure out of poking a hornets nest and then
watching the cyber results?

Does this behavior suggest a grand conspiracy by the great
powers that be to confuse and suppress the 'great truth' being
professed by the likes of Art Bell and Richard Hoagland!??!

Dunno, maybe I should reverse some of my own speech to figure
out what the hell I just said.

John W. Ratcliff





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 6

               Re: Stephens Admits to CAUS That He is a Fraud

From: Michael Christol <mchristo@mindspring.com>
Date: Wed, 06 Jan 1999 19:18:53 -0600
Fwd Date: Wed, 06 Jan 1999 23:45:57 -0500
Subject: Re: Stephens Admits to CAUS That He is a Fraud


>From: Sharon Kardol <sharon@hotmix.com.au>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: NASA's Stephens Admits to CAUS That He is a Fraud
>Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 12:03:07 +0800


>>I see no lesson to be learned here at all. To attribute such a
>>thing to Stephens gives him far more credit than he deserves and
>>affords you too convenient a cushion for your fall from reason.

>Absolutely.  I may have defended Mr Stephens right as a person
>to have an opinion without it being shot down in flames, as I
>would any person.  However myself and most others on the list in
>no way viewed Mr Stephens as anything more than a person with an
>opinion, and not very well substantiated ones at that.


Very true Sharon...

Here also is a good example of my "Time will tell" philosophy.
I didn't get involved in that thread at all, when he was making
those statments.

REgards, Mike





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 6

                         Re: Loren Gross' Histories

From: Larry Clark <lclark@ibm.net>
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 19:58:37 -0000
Fwd Date: Wed, 06 Jan 1999 23:43:55 -0500
Subject: Re: Loren Gross' Histories


>Date: Wed, 06 Jan 1999 14:17:33 -0800
>From: Jan Aldrich <jan@cyberzone.net>
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Loren Gross' Histories

>Greeting List,

>Loren Gross' works on UFOs are not generally available. I echo
>Bob Girard's comments,  "This is the single most important work
>every done on UFOs.  This series of books is ten times better
>than the next nearest work."

<snip>

>Girard attempted to publish the later volumes in the series.
>The amount of interest was almost nil.  Girard and I both wish
>to get these books published and made available to a wider
>audience.

>Project 1947 is a volunteer effort.  Candy Peterson has
>volunteered to place a number of these volumes on the computer.
>Due to her efforts we have the 1947 volume and most of the 1957
>volumes (10 in all) on computer word processing files.  Candy
>has really render an important service here. Loren uses a
>typewriter to turn out these wonderful volumes. (The discovery
>of huge amounts of new material for 1957 meant that revisions
>are necessary.)  Loren wants to revise his early volumes, also.

>There several schemes to get these things published.  Perhaps
>even on CDrom/DVD.  What is needed is some show of support for
>such a project.

<snip>

Hi:

I would think CD would be the least expensive method of
reproducing the material.

Who would be selling it, and what would the estimated cost be?





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 7

                               PEER Highlights

From: Patricia Mason <pmason@ee.net>
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 23:10:19 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 07 Jan 1999 00:00:43 -0500
Subject: PEER Highlights


>From PEER See: http://www.peer-mack.org/

1998 Highlights

Completed data analysis on the largest, most comprehensive
psychological study to date of the alien abduction phenomenon,
an 80-subject comparison which found that alien abduction
experiences cannot be explained away as personality disorders.

Presented research and clinical data to general and professional
audiences around the country, including clinicians and residents
at Harvard Medical School, facilitating a more open and complex
understanding of anomalous experiences among future doctors and
therapists.

Completed Phase II of a pilot study exploring multiple witness
reports of UFO sightings and abduction experiences.

Hosted the Star Wisdom conference: a two-day gathering which
brought together members of the clinical and scientific
communities, Native American elders who have connections to
'star people', and individuals experiencing alien abduction.

Responded with resources, referrals, and consultations to more
than 420 requests from individuals describing anomalous
experiences and mental health professionals looking for a better
understanding of what their clients are experiencing.

Launched a web page to offer current research and resources to
as many people as possible: www.peer-mack.org/.

Responded to numerous requests from the media for clear and
balanced information about extraordinary experiences, including
NBC and National Public Radio.

Received research grants from three respected foundations: the
Fetzer Institute, the Lifebridge Foundation, and the National
Institute for Discovery Science (NIDS).

1999 Preview

Launching a study group of leading scientists and clinicians to
fashion next steps in a responsible exploration of anomalous
experiences.

Publishing a new issue of 'PEER Perspectives' to provide
up-to-date information and dialogue about extraordinary
experiences.

Releasing the first in a series of PEER videos: John Mack and
Budd Hopkins in 'A Dialogue on the Alien Abduction Experience'.





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 7

               Re: Military Ability to Detect & Identify UFOs

From: Michael Christol <mchristo@mindspring.com>
Date: Wed, 06 Jan 1999 22:41:38 -0600
Fwd Date: Thu, 07 Jan 1999 00:12:13 -0500
Subject: Re: Military Ability to Detect & Identify UFOs


>From: Bill Weber <koran@cchat.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: Military Ability to Detect & Identify UFOs
>Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 17:24:12 -0500

>>Well, in this situation, it seems to me to be a win - win,
>>situation...<G>

>>Am I correct Bruce?

>Well...yeah, but unfortunately, from the earth's perspective,
>then, the sun rotates around it.  If your wife, (as earth),
>stands in the center of a room and swings you, (the moon),
>around on a rope while you sit in your rolling office chair,
>don't attempt to prove your original premise by keeping your
>face, (the bright side of the moon), pointed in the direction of
>one of the walls.  This is terribly painful, eventually
>requiring a neck brace and a possible hip replacement -
>depending on how determined you are.  If it doesn't feel good -
>don't do it!


Ha, ha, ha...somehow, I feel I have already experienced this
with my wife....oooooohhhhhh...

Ha, ha, ha....

Thanks, Bill.

REgards, Mike





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 7

                   Re: Stephens Statement: "A Total Fraud"

From: Gary Alevy <galevy@pipeline.com>
Date: Wed, 06 Jan 1999 21:45:36 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 07 Jan 1999 00:16:02 -0500
Subject: Re: Stephens Statement: "A Total Fraud"


>From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
>Date: Tue, 05 Jan 1999 10:11:16 +0000
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Stephens Statement: "A Total Fraud"


>>From: Jeff Rense <eotl@west.net>
>>Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 01:05:32 -0800 (PST)ud In Every Way"
>>Subject: Stephens Statement: "A Total Fraud In Every Way"

>Previously, Mr. Stephens came clean:

>>Robert A.M. Stephens is, from the very beginning, 10-16-1998 to
>>this date 1-4-1998, a complete and total fraud in every way.

><snip>

>>Art Bell
>>is to be praised for this amazing windfall of ferreting out
>>charlatans and fakes in the UFO industry like me and he has
>>shown in this case, "never before in my radio career have I
>>seen anything like this."

><snip>

>>I do thank Mr. Richard C. Hoagland and Art Bell to give me a
>>opportunity to attempt foolishly to debate topics for which I
>>was obviously ill prepared for and failed miserably.

>Wow. Looks like 1999 is gonna be a good year after all.

>Hey, maybe we can get Gary Alevy to appear on Art Bell next!

>Ahhhhh. Wishful thinking...


Roger, you can't know how much I would love going on Art Bell's
show. The things it would do my sales!


Gary Alevy





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 7

                       Re: 25 Rules of Disinformation

From: Gary Alevy <galevy@pipeline.com>
Date: Wed, 06 Jan 1999 23:39:20 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 07 Jan 1999 00:25:55 -0500
Subject: Re: 25 Rules of Disinformation


<snip>

>Source: http://www.trufax.org/research2/disinforules.html

>Twenty-Five Rules of Disinformation - The Politicians Credo

>Courtesy of American Patriot Friends Network and Walt
>July 15, 1998

>Note: The first rule and last five (or six, depending on
>situation) rules are generally not directly within the ability
>of the traditional disinfo artist to apply. These rules are
>generally used more directly by those at the leadership, key
>players, or planning level of the criminal conspiracy or
>conspiracy to cover up.

-- This is a very important consideration because the people you
have to watch, in any area of human endeavor, are the leaders,
or those who purport themselves to be. That is, who else has
the ability to simply pronounce something and have it accepted,
at least by some? Upon reflection it is obvious that the people
who REALLY have the power to use disinformation ARE the most
visible people, the erstwhile leaders.

>1. Hear no evil, see no evil, speak no evil. Regardless of what
>you know, don't discuss it -- especially if you are a public
>figure, news anchor, etc. If it's not reported, it didn't
>happen, and you never have to deal with the issues.


-- An excellent point, especially where "ufology" is concerned.
That is, there are certain areas where certain ufological
leading lights dare not go and that is most interesting and
illuminating. It is a fact that what is NOT in the written
corpus of an author is just about as important as what IS in
that corpus. We all have biases and sorting out those biases is
absolutely necessary, espcially among the "leaders."

>2. Become incredulous and indignant. Avoid discussing key
>issues and instead focus on side issues which can be used show
>the topic as being critical of some otherwise sacrosanct group
>or theme. This is also known as the "How dare you!" gambit.

-- This was the immediate reaction when I first raised my
questions about Dr. Hynek.

>3. Create rumor mongers. Avoid discussing issues by describing
>all charges, regardless of venue or evidence, as mere rumors and
>wild accusations. Other derogatory terms mutually exclusive of
>truth may work as well. This method works especially well with a
>silent press, because the only way the public can learn of the
>facts are through such "arguable rumors". If you can associate
>the material with the Internet, use this fact to certify it a
>"wild rumor" which can have no basis in fact.

-- In the academicised portions of ufology there are vast areas
of the past that are simply off limits and not the subject of
legitimate discussion. One of these is the nature and scope of
"intelligence community activity" among ufologists. On this
point the "silent press" attempts to re-invent the past by
ignoring important facts. It's a powerful technique if you hold
the high ground, a hard thing to do in the days of the InterNet.

>4. Use a straw man. Find or create a seeming element of your
>opponent's argument which you can easily knock down to make
>yourself look good and the opponent to look bad. Either make up
>an issue you may safely imply exists based on your
>interpretation of the opponent/opponent arguments/situation, or
>select the weakest aspect of the weakest charges. Amplify their
>significance and destroy them in a way which appears to debunk
>all the charges, real and fabricated alike, while actually
>avoiding discussion of the real issues.

-- What are the real issues in the dispute which broke out last
month over Dr. Hynek? This real issues revolve around the fact
that there is AMPLE evidence, evidence tantamount to proof, FOR
ME, that Dr. Hynek was working both sides of the street in his
later career as Godfather of ufology. What is proof? It is the
evidence that convinces YOU. That is, there is no absolute
proof available in this area, short of the individual at issue
owning up in public, as did Dr. Thornton Page (who was also a
member of the Robertson Panel with Hynek,the web link to this
information was included in one of my postings) a few months ago
and just before his passing. All we are going to have is
evidence.

>5. Sidetrack opponents with name calling and ridicule. This is
>also known as the primary attack the messenger ploy, though
>other methods qualify as variants of that approach. Associate
>opponents with unpopular titles such as "kooks", "right-wing",
>"liberal", "left-wing", "terrorists", "conspiracy buffs",
>"radicals", "militia", "racists", "religious fanatics", "sexual
>deviates", and so forth. This makes others shrink from support
>out of fear of gaining the same label, and you avoid dealing
>with issues.

-- Here is where my critics excell!

>6. Hit and Run. In any public forum, make a brief attack of
>your opponent or the opponent position and then scamper off
>before an answer can be fielded, or simply ignore any answer.
>This works extremely well in Internet and letters-to-the-editor
>environments where a steady stream of new identities can be
>called upon without having to explain criticism reasoning --
>simply make an accusation or other attack, never discussing
>issues, and never answering any subsequent response, for that
>would dignify the opponent's viewpoint.


-- Here again is where my critics triumph. Where important
issues are concerned I have tried to respond in some detail, at
least with as much as this forum deserves. Those who have read
the all the messages know which issues have been ignored by my
critics.

>7. Question motives. Twist or amplify any fact which could so
>taken to imply that the opponent operates out of a hidden
>personal agenda or other bias. This avoids discussing issues and
>forces the accuser on the defensive.

-- Again, my critics excell in this area, perhaps because they,
too, operate under hidden parameters. It's a tough world.

>8. Invoke authority. Claim for yourself or associate yourself
>with authority and present your argument with enough "jargon"
>and "minutiae" to illustrate you are "one who knows", and simply
>say it isn't so without discussing issues or demonstrating
>concretely why or citing sources.

-- Here again, certain of my critics shine in this area.

>9. Play Dumb. No matter what evidence or logical argument is
>offered, avoid discussing issues with denial they have any
>credibility, make any sense, provide any proof, contain or make
>a point, have logic, or support a conclusion. Mix well for
>maximum effect.

-- My critics say I have provided no proof and as I have said
(because it's true) proof is the evidence that convinces you.
Assemble these threads from front to back and read them closely,
sorting out the invective from the evidence. Who wins? The
relevant message threads are:

        More 1950s UFO History: The Role Of Dr. James McDonald
        UFOs - Ersatz Exposure, Oh Shocking!
        The Art Of Propaganda In The UFO Field
        Sherman J. Larsen and Ufology

>10. Associate opponent charges with old news. A derivative of
>the straw man usually, in any large-scale matter of high
>visibility, someone will make charges early on which can be or
>were already easily dealt with. Where it can be foreseen, have
>your own side raise a straw man issue and have it dealt with
>early on as part of the initial contingency plans. Subsequent
>charges, regardless of validity or new ground uncovered, can
>usually them be associated with the original charge and
>dismissed as simply being a rehash without need to address
>current issues -- so much the better where the opponent is or
>was involved with the original source.

-- This is part of what I call the "Tag Team" approach, on which
I will have more to say later.

>11. Establish and rely upon fall-back positions. Using a minor
>matter or element of the facts, take the "high road" and
>"confess" with candor that some innocent mistake, in hindsight,
>was made -- but that opponents have seized on the opportunity to
>blow it all out of proportion and imply greater criminalities
>which, "just isn't so." Others can reinforce this on your
>behalf, later. Done properly, this can garner sympathy and
>respect for "coming clean" and "owning up" to your mistakes
>without addressing more serious issues.

-- I have made no mistakes except in presentation. That is, my
early messages in what became multiple threaded messages:

        More 1950s UFO History: The Role Of Dr. James McDonald
        UFOs - Ersatz Exposure, Oh Shocking!
        The Art Of Propaganda In The UFO Field
        Sherman J. Larsen and Ufology

were created under the assumption that the particular discussion
would not last long. If I had known up front how many exchanges
would have been permitted, well, things would have been
different.

>12. Enigmas have no solution. Drawing upon the overall umbrella
>of events surrounding the crime and the multitude of players and
>events, paint the entire affair as too complex to solve. This
>causes those otherwise following the matter to begin to loose
>interest more quickly without having to address the actual
>issues.

-- This is the general position of the "leadership" in ufology
where uncomfortable associations exist. They seem to believe in
the possible existence of aliens from outer space, and some even
cite evidence for crashed space ships, while at the same time
balking at certain behaviors of an ordinary human kind. I must
admit puzzlement.

>13. Alice in Wonderland Logic. Avoid discussion of the issues
>by reasoning backwards with an apparent deductive logic in a way
>that forbears any actual material fact.

-- We have lots of facts, lots of them. It's the interpretation
of those facts that is at issue. The problem with Dr. Hynek is
that the closer you look at him the more, well, interesting he
becomes, and not because of his "ufology."


>14. Demand complete solutions. Avoid the issues by requiring
>opponents to solve the crime at hand completely, a ploy which
>works best for items qualifying for rule 10.

-- Once again, here my critics are working overtime.

>15. Fit the facts to alternate conclusions. This requires
>creative thinking unless the crime was planned with contingency
>conclusions in place.

-- We are dealing here with probabilities. That is, given what
we know, what is the probability that Dr. Hynek was NOT
maintaining any of the associations he had back in the late
1940s and early 1950s when he was, like St. Paul, actively
prosecuting those he would later champion? It's your call.

>16. Vanishing evidence and witnesses. If it does not exist, it
>is not fact, and you won't have to address the issue.

-- This is the tack taken by Mr. Clark in his encyclopedia where
whole aspects of ufology are disappeared. I can speak with
authority here because I am sure I am one of the few people on
this list who actually owns the work and has studied it -- hard.

>17. Change the subject. Usually in connection with one of the
>other ploys listed here, find a way to side-track the discussion
>with abrasive or controversial comments in hopes of turning
>attention to a new, more manageable topic. This works especially
>well with companions who can "argue" with you over the new topic
>and polarize the discussion arena in order to avoid discussing
>more key issues.

-- I have been accused of doing this and it's true that the
subject did change -- because a much more interesting topic was
brought up, by my critics! This did lead to this revealing
series of threads.

        More 1950s UFO History: The Role Of Dr. James McDonald
        UFOs - Ersatz Exposure, Oh Shocking!
        The Art Of Propaganda In The UFO Field
        Sherman J. Larsen and Ufology

>18. Emotionalize, Antagonize, and Goad Opponents. If you can't
>do anything else, chide and taunt your opponents and draw them
>into emotional responses which will tend to make them look
>foolish and overly motivated, and generally render their
>material somewhat less coherent. Not only will you avoid
>discussing the issues in the first instance, but even if their
>emotional response addresses the issue, you can further avoid
>the issues by then focusing on how "sensitive they are to
>criticism".

-- I plead guilty to a little of this, but under duress.

>19. Ignore proof presented, demand impossible proofs. This is
>perhaps a variant of the "play dumb" rule. Regardless of what
>material may be presented by an opponent in public forums, claim
>the material irrelevant and demand proof that is impossible for
>the opponent to come by (it may exist, but not be at his
>disposal, or it may be something which is known to be safely
>destroyed or withheld, such as a murder weapon). In order to
>completely avoid discussing issues may require you to
>categorically deny and be critical of media or books as valid
>sources, deny that witnesses are acceptable, or even deny that
>statements made by government or other authorities have any
>meaning or relevance.

-- Once again, this is an area where my critics do well.

>20. False evidence. Whenever possible, introduce new facts or
>clues designed and manufactured to conflict with opponent
>presentations as useful tools to neutralize sensitive issues or
>impede resolution. This works best when the crime was designed
>with contingencies for the purpose, and the facts cannot be
>easily separated from the fabrications.

-- Everything I've mentioned is on the public record except for
a couple of items which, it turns out, aren't even key to the
issue at hand. My critics have, in the main, blown themselves
out of the water as anyone can see by reading the entire series
of threads.

        More 1950s UFO History: The Role Of Dr. James McDonald
        UFOs - Ersatz Exposure, Oh Shocking!
        The Art Of Propaganda In The UFO Field
        Sherman J. Larsen and Ufology

>21. Call a Grand Jury, Special Prosecutor, or other empowered
>investigative body. Subvert the (process) to your benefit and
>effectively neutralize all sensitive issues without open
>discussion. Once convened, the evidence and testimony are
>required to be secret when properly handled. For instance, if
>you own the prosecuting attorney, it can insure a Grand Jury
>hears no useful evidence and that the evidence is sealed an
>unavailable to subsequent investigators. Once a favorable
>verdict (usually, this technique is applied to find the guilty
>innocent, but it can also be used to obtain charges when seeking
>to frame a victim) is achieved, the matter can be considered
>officially closed.

-- This is the job of the Tag Team, the unofficial police agency
of the list. But they haven no power of arrest.

>22. Manufacture a new truth. Create your own expert(s),
>group(s), author(s), leader(s) or influence existing ones
>willing to forge new ground via scientific, investigative, or
>social research or testimony which concludes favorably. In this
>way, if you must actually address issues, you can do so
>authoritatively.

-- The "leadership" of ufology is entirely self-created and
maintains itself, in part, by NOT addressing certain issues.

>23. Create bigger distractions. If the above does not seem to
>be working to distract from sensitive issues, or to prevent
>unwanted media coverage of unstoppable events such as trials,
>create bigger news stories (or treat them as such) to distract
>the multitudes.

-- Take a look at the MJ-12 business, closely, and think about
where the headwaters of that activity probably arose. But, oops,
that's one of those off-limits areas!

>24. Silence critics. If the above methods do not prevail,
>consider removing opponents from circulation by some definitive
>solution so that the need to address issues is removed entirely.
>This can be by their death, arrest and detention, blackmail or
>destruction of their character by release of blackmail
>information, or merely by proper intimidation with blackmail or
>other threats.

-- List owners have the ultimate power here and I must say that
in the particular case, of the _Sherm Larson and Ufology_
thread, and the others too, I have no reason for complaint.

>25. Vanish. If you are a key holder of secrets or otherwise
>overly illuminated and you think the heat is getting too hot, to
>avoid the issues, vacate the kitchen.

-- No doubt my critics believe they have made things hot for me
on this list and that I will vanish. Hardly. I, too, can't stop
laughing.

Yes, Roger I am waiting for that invitation from Art Bell... see
what you can do to expedite it.

Gary Alevy





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 7

                       Re: FOX Hoax Special - Reaction

From: Gildas Bourdais <GBourdais@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 1 Jan 1999 12:57:35 EST
Fwd Date: Thu, 07 Jan 1999 06:37:48 -0500
Subject: Re: FOX Hoax Special - Reaction



>Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 22:59:22 -0500
>From: James Easton <pulsar@compuserve.com>
>Subject: UFO UpDate: Re: FOX Hoax Special - Reaction
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>

>Regarding the FOX 'Hoax Special' program...

<snip>

>Still many more questions than answers.


Thank you for your interesting analysis, and your very
appropriate conclusion, it seems to me. Just a few more
thoughts:

I find very improbable that Ray Santilli, a small music
producer, would have launched in such a risky and costly
operation of producing a highly complex hoax by himself. Just
think of the risk of a member of the production team leaking any
part of the story, even inadvertantly, any time in the future.
For instance when talking to a friend, who would repeat it, etc.
Santilli would soon have several dozens of TV networks suing him
and would end up in jail for swindling.

On the other hand the mere fact that he put the film on the
market means that he was very sure of not being prosecuted.
However, many parts of his story, such as the camaraman's story,
are not credible. Just to mention the claim of having kept
highly secret reels and developped them himself. The story is
preposrerous, and therefore Santilli did not get the film the
way he says.

So what happened ?? I am surprised that the very possible
hypothesis of a "secret services" operation has been paid so
little attention, apparently (or am I wrong here ?). And yet,
there are many precedents. If we go back in time, we know that,
for instance, AFOSI issued doctored documents and informations
to ufological circles, some of them through William Moore, who
confessed it. So, why not a film ?

What would be the purpose of such an operation ? Perhaps two
purposes. The first one would be to jam inquiries on Roswell
getting too close to the truth. Please note the worldwide
release of the film coincided with the GAO report which, as a
consequence, drew little attention in the press. In France, the
autopsy footage was a disaster, not only for Roswell but for
ufology itself, from which we are slowly recovering.

The second purpose, on the other hand, might be to accustom the
general public to the idea of the alien presence on Earth, and
to the future revelation of secret operations, which require
obviously a long preparation (That's my optimistic touch). All
this does not necessarily mean that the film is authentic. Il
may just be close to the truth, but with some deliberate
inaccuracies, just like, perhaps in other operations such as the
MJ-12 documents, etc.

I would be interested to read convincing arguments against this
hypothesis. When the film was shown in France, on the TF1
network, I was invited for my book on Roswell, and at the end of
the show I asked this question to Bob Kiviat, who was there :
"What about the "secret services" hypothesis ?" He did not
reply, and I did not insist. But he would have been well advised
to think about it because his recent show does not seem to be
the end of the story.

Incidentally, I may have some information to release soon on the
"KGB secrets" TV production. Russian ufologist Boris Shurinov,
to whom I sent the video, has already presented a rather
devastating analysis of it at a recent conference in Italy
(Cagliari, in Sardinia, 12 december 1998). He is to send me soon
a summary of it (he was completing his inquiry)  with his
authorization to circulate it. Just to give an example,  he
claims that the uniforms of the soldiers are not correct : they
wear an officer's belt! Again, we will have to wonder about who
made that video.

Gildas Bourdais






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 7

                       Re: FOX Hoax Special - Reaction

From: Gildas Bourdais <GBourdais@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1999 07:11:41 EST
Fwd Date: Thu, 07 Jan 1999 06:44:32 -0500
Subject: Re: FOX Hoax Special - Reaction



>Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 22:59:22 -0500
>From: James Easton <pulsar@compuserve.com>
>Subject: UFO UpDate: Re: FOX Hoax Special - Reaction
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>


>Regarding the FOX 'Hoax Special' program...

<snip>

>Still many more questions than answers.



Thank you for your interesting analysis, and your very
appropriate conclusion,  it seems to me. Just a few more
thoughts: I find very improbable that Ray Santilli, a small
music producer, would have launched in such a risky and costly
operation of producing a highly complex hoax by himself. Just
think of the risk of a member of the production team leaking any
part of the story, even inadvertantly, any time in the future.
For instance when talking to a friend, who would repeat it, etc.
Santilli would soon have several dozens of TV networks suing him
and would end up in jail for swindling. On the other hand the
mere fact that he put the film on the market means that he was
very sure of not being prosecuted. However, many parts of his
story, such as the camaraman's story, are not credible. Just to
mention the claim of having kept highly secret reels and
developped them himself. The story is preposrerous, and
therefore Santilli did not get the film the way he says.

So what happened?? I am surprised that the very possible
hypothesis of a "secret services" operation has been paid so
little attention, apparently (or am I wrong here?). And yet,
there are many precedents. If we go back in time, we know that,
for instance, AFOSI issued doctored documents and informations
to ufological circles, some of them through William Moore, who
confessed it. So, why not a film?

What would be the purpose of such an operation? Perhaps two
purposes.

The first one would be to jam inquiries on Roswell getting too
close to the truth. Please note the worldwide release of the
film coincided with the GAO report which, as a consequence, drew
little attention in the press. In France, the autopsy footage
was a disaster, not only for Roswell but for ufology itself,
from which we are slowly recovering.

The second purpose, on the other hand, might be to accustom the
general public to the idea of the alien presence on Earth, and
to the future revelation of secret operations, which require
obviously a long preparation (That's my optimistic touch). All
this does not necessarily mean that the film is authentic. Il
may just be close to the truth, but with some deliberate
inaccuracies, just like, perhaps in other operations such as the
MJ-12 documents, etc.

I would be interested to read convincing arguments against this
hypothesis.

When the film was shown in France, on the TF1 network, I was
invited for my book on Roswell, and at the end of the show I
asked this question to Bob Kiviat, who was there : "What about
the "secret services" hypothesis?" He did not reply, and I did
not insist. But he would have been well advised to think about
it because his recent show does not seem to be the end of the
story.

Incidentally, I may have some information to release soon on the
'KGB Secrets' TV production. Russian ufologist Boris Shurinov,
to whom I sent the video, has already presented a rather
devastating analysis of it at a recent conference in Italy
(Cagliari, in Sardinia, 12 december 1998). He is to send me soon
a summary of it (he was completing his inquiry)  with his
authorization to circulate it. Just to give an example,  he
claims that the uniforms of the soldiers are not correct : they
wear an officer's belt!

Best regards,

Gildas Bourdais







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 7

                             Re: Fox TV Special

From: Gildas Bourdais <GBourdais@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1999 11:59:31 EST
Fwd Date: Thu, 07 Jan 1999 07:06:04 -0500
Subject: Re: Fox TV Special


>Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 10:10:05 -0600
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Michael Christol <mchristo@mindspring.com>
>Subject: Re: Fox TV Special


>>Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 01:16:36 -0500
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net>
>>Subject: Re: Fox TV Special


>As far as Kal Korff goes...He has been a staunch attacker of
>the Billy Meier case since he was 16 years old. Kal is a
>compadre' of old William (Bill) Moore's. If you remember the
>1989 MUFON CONVENTION, speech Moore made in Las Vegas, Nevada,
>then you know of what I speak.

>From 1980 onward, Moore attacked the "Meier" photos, mainly,
>because Wendelle Stevens would not share them and the
>information with him about the case, at the 1980 UFO Convention
>in San Francisco. When he demanded the information Stevens had
>gathered, and Stevens told him to go get it the same way he
>had; namely go visit Billy Meier in Switzerland, Moore became
>furious. He immediately went to Jim and Coral Lorenzen and
>denounced the Meier case as an out and out fraud.

>From that time onward, he used every weapon in his arsenal to
>discredit Meier. One of those weapons was a 16 year old boy by
>the name of Kal Korff, whom Moore shaped into the early form of
>"attack dog." Moore felt that if he attacked Meier so
>viscously, he might be sued for slander, however, a 16 year old
>minor, would not suffer such a fate..


Thank you, Michael, for this important information on the
Moore/Korff connection, and the origin of the attacks on Billy
Meier.This is important because, after their attacks, almost
everybody has been convinced that Billy Meier was a fraud. It is
always a grave act to demolish the reputation of anyone. But I
see now doubts been expressed about the pertinence of these
attacks, especially after a bad TV show (one more). So, what
about if Meier was not a fraud, after all ? Then we would have
one more shameful scandal in ufology.

Some simple remarks:

Nobody has yet explained convincigly how a poor man, with only
one arm, was able to fake a whole series of extraordinary
pictures, and a film.

The testimony of his ex-wife is doubtful, since she contradicts
previous testimony (when did she lie ?). There are several
independant witnesses (interviewed in the video "Contact") who
claim to have seen Meier's UFOs.

I have actually just met one, on the occasion of a conference in
Italy last month. His name is Guido Moosbrugger, he is an old
close friend of Meier, and he was there to present his history
(I have his address).

Later, I had some time to talk with him, waiting for the plane
at the Rome airport, and he told me very interesting things. He
claims, not only to have seen Meier's UFO's but to have made
some pictures of them. He also claims to have seen Meier
disappear from sight in the middle of a large field !
(Previously, Wendelle Stevens told me a similar story, when I
met him at the Brazilia Forum in december 1997).

I realize that this kind of testimony invites all kinds
of sneer and sarcasm. Butthe same treatment may
be applied (and has been) to thousands of UFO cases.
About the fake pictures, Guido told me that many of them
had been made purposely by outside people to discredit
Meier. About his ex-wife Poppy, he thinks also that
she was influenced by outside people.

I don't know what may be true of all this, but it
makes me wonder about those alleged "Blonds":

Do they really exist, where do they come from, are they in
conflict with the Greys, etc.?  It's about time to think
seriously about that sort of questions, it seems to me.

BTW, the fact that the Pleiades are young stars does not
preclude the possibility that some ET races would have settled
there, coming from elsewhere. We have to be careful before
declaring that this or that is impossible.

We are so ignorant!






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 7

                   Re: Stephens Statement: "A Total Fraud"

From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
Date: Thu, 07 Jan 1999 01:41:52 +0000
Fwd Date: Thu, 07 Jan 1999 07:08:17 -0500
Subject: Re: Stephens Statement: "A Total Fraud"


>From: Gary Alevy <galevy@pipeline.com>
>Date: Wed, 06 Jan 1999 21:45:36 -0500
>Fwd Date: Thu, 07 Jan 1999 00:16:02 -0500
>Subject: Re: Stephens Statement: "A Total Fraud"

>>From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
>>Date: Tue, 05 Jan 1999 10:11:16 +0000
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>Subject: Stephens Statement: "A Total Fraud"

Previously, Robert Stephens admitted:

>>>I do thank Mr. Richard C. Hoagland and Art Bell to give me a
>>>opportunity to attempt foolishly to debate topics for which I
>>>was obviously ill prepared for and failed miserably.

I commented:

>>Wow. Looks like 1999 is gonna be a good year after all.

>>Hey, maybe we can get Gary Alevy to appear on Art Bell next!

>>Ahhhhh. Wishful thinking...

Gary's response:

>Roger, you can't know how much I would love going on Art Bell's
>show. The things it would do my sales!

What the hell is this?

After weeks of hiding in the shadows from my single question,
you suddenly come up for air because of a commercial
opportunity?

"The things it would do my sales"?

It would "do yo' sales" even more good if you'd stop avoiding
the issues. You do realize, Gary, that even someone like Art
Bell is likely to ask you real questions and expect real
answers?

Unbelievable. I hope you get your wish.

Roger Evans





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 7

               Re: NASA's Stephens Admits to CAUS That He is a

From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
Date: Thu, 07 Jan 1999 00:48:17 +0000
Fwd Date: Thu, 07 Jan 1999 07:25:12 -0500
Subject: Re: NASA's Stephens Admits to CAUS That He is a


>From: Peter Gersten <UFOLAWYER1@aol.com>
>Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 01:46:34 EST
>Fwd Date: Wed, 06 Jan 1999 20:36:18 -0500
>Subject: Re: NASA's Stephens Admits to CAUS That He is a Fraud

>>From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
>>Date: Tue, 05 Jan 1999 10:32:16 +0000
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>Subject: NASA's Stephens Admits to CAUS That He is a Fraud

Okay, kids...

Get out the TV trays and fix yourself a snack cause this is
gonna take a while to sort out.

Bright and early this morning, I received the following email
from an obviously agitated Peter Gersten regarding my response
to his cry in the wilderness about how "WE" were all fooled by
"Savior Stephens". As this post has recently appeared in its
entirety, I shall snip here and there while retaining the most
vital info. I'm sure Mr. Gersten will let me know if I've
avoided anything important.

Previously, I had written:

>>I am stunned.

>>If you have been reading this list at all, I think you'll find
>>that virtually NO ONE took Stephens seriously, much less thought
>>of him as a 'savior'.

Peter replies:

>You got me there....I do not read your list.

Obviously, this is not true as illustrated by the following post:

>>From: UFOLAWYER1@aol.com
>>Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 20:27:07 EDT
>>To: updates@globalserve.net
>>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Seeking Info on Wurtsmith 1975 Sighting

>>In a message dated 6/24/98 3:38:44 PM US Mountain Standard Time,
>>updates@globalserve.net writes:

>>>I'm looking for a reported UFO incident relating to Wurtsmith,

>>>Michigan in 1975.  I need to know the exact date or dates and
>>>what was believed to have happened.

>>Diana,

>>I have the documents on Wurtsmith and will send them to you.

>>Peter

Peter's email to me then goes on to ask:

>Didn't know it [the list] was
>required reading. Would have saved me alot of time and
>trouble...huh?

It might, at that, Peter. Though it would seem that time and
trouble are things you have in short supply since we've seen
very little of either, lately from you.

Moving on, I had written:

>>His "swordsmanship", as you put it, was so severely lacking
>>that even most armchair ufologists didn't even give him a second
>>thought.

Peter replied:

>Really now? Armchair ufologists? Not even a second thought? So
>why are you e-mailing me?

This, of course, is another error on Peter's part as indicated
by ebk:

>[Legal 'Eagle' Peter Gersten is not paying attention to the
>evidence - Roger didn't send him the 'offending' mail _I_ did,
>as a 'Bcc;' --ebk]

Again, if Peter had taken the "time and trouble" to READ the
header, then he would have realized that it was sent by UpDates
and not me.

Moving on, I had declared:

>>The fact that _you_ were fooled doesn't mean that the majority
>>was also.

Amazingly, he now asks:

>How was I fooled my friend?

Well, Peter, the following is taken directly from YOUR post:

>>Mr. Stephens was able to fool us for over 80 days. Shame on us. We
>>are so eager, CAUS included, to find the truth, that we will embrace
>>any 'savior' who presents himself cloaked in the garb of 'knowing
>>the truth.'

I'd say that pretty much answers that question. However, Peter
now wants to know the following:

>Majority of what? My 6500 members?
>How many People are on your list? Did your poll the list? And
>why would I care whether 'your list' was fooled or not.

Actually, I don't think that you are gaining any credibility by
maintaining that only the CAUS members were fooled. Of course,
you do bring up a valid point with the following:

>My
>CAUSupdates go to CAUS members which, the last I looked, you are
>not a member of.

Correct. Besides, why would I want to be a member of the only
group on this planet that, according to you, was fooled by
Robert Stephens?

However, you really should do more research when you write:

>Doubt that 'updates@globalserve' is [a member] either.

Again, ebk provides us with the REAL truth:

>[No? There are about 200 posts - directly from your list -
>sitting in my archive here. Missing the evidentiary clues
>again Mr. Gersten? And I'm quite sure that a few of the
>_many_ knowledge-able subscribers to UpDates will be most
>happy to respond to you via this List. I'll be sure to pass
>them on to you. --ebk]

Ultimately, I had stated:

>>With all due respect, Mr. Gersten, you need to speak for
>>yourself. The picture you paint is one of justification for
>>your own gullibility and you can leave me out of it.

Peter responded with this nonsense:

>You have been left out of it...by your own choice. Unless of
>CAUS you have some UFO accomplishments that I am not aware of.
>So why are you getting involved now? You can be sure that my
>'we' had nothing to do with someone as intelligent and wise as
>you.

Well, for starters, the term "WE" means just what it states;
you, me, everybody concerned. But since you seem intent on
making a point of this, I'll play your game. Earlier you had
stated:

>>We are so eager, CAUS included, to find the truth, etc, etc, etc.

So, here's a little lesson in sentence structure.

Ready?

If "we" already included CAUS members, then why add "CAUS
included"? If the statement was intended to be read by CAUS
members _only_, wouldn't they already know who "we" signified?
Obviously, Mr. Gersten, you intended this statement for a larger
audience; in fact anyone that would listen and cut you some
slack for your unwise support of Mr. Stephens.

Now, rounding out this panarama of illogic are the following
additional emails from Mr. Gersten concerning his post:

>I assume, in all fairness, you will be posting my response
>to your mailing list..since I am not a member.

Of course, again, all he had to do was take the "time and
trouble" to read the header of his OWN outgoing email to know
that he had _already_ done that. The email I received this
morning was a 'Cc:' of his post _clearly_ addressed to UpDates.
In fact, at the very moment he was questioning me about whether
I would send it in, ebk had already received it from Peter and
was formatting it for the list.

When I pointed this out to Peter, he replied:

>Since I am not a member, I would assume it was not
>posted...even though I sent it to your list. Did you see
>it posted? I have not. So please post it..if only to
>respond to it.

>And now I request that both my responses be posted on
>your list. Please note that this one is not addressed to
>your list...so no lame excuse please.

Lame? I'll give you lame, Hotshot.

First off, how would you expect to see it, at all, if you don't
read this list? Ah, but of course, you really do...

Second, how do you think I read your original post in the first
place if it wasn't on Updates? Ah, but of course, it was...

Third, as you so wisely pointed out, I'm not a CAUS member, so
you know _you_ didn't send me a copy. Ah, but maybe you weren't
sure. After all, you don't seem to remember _who_ you send
emails to, do you?

So what have we learned here, today?

1) We know that Mr. Gersten reads this list when he claims not
to.

2) We know that he doesn't give his own list members much credit
for having snap enough to see through Robert Stephens.

3) We know that Mr. Gersten conveniently "forgets" what he wrote
when backed into a corner; i.e. "How was I fooled, my friend?"

4) We know that Mr. Gersten does not bother to check his facts
as illustrated by his confusion over something as simple as
email.

5) We know that Mr. Gersten is obviously embarrassed by his
association with Robert Stephens and would really like nothing
more than for me to go away right now and quit pointing out the
flaws in his justifications for what he wrote.

It should be noted that, after receiving his email this morning,
it took me no more than five minutes and one phone call to clear
up the mystery of why Peter thought I had sent him an email of
my post.

Five minutes.

And I did it the hard way. All Peter had to do was access the
kludge lines of his incoming post at the click of button.
According to my research, he uses AOL V4.0 and has Windows 95,
sub 236 which should allow him that kind of info. And even if
there was some funky AOL related problem to prevent that, at the
least all he had to do was _read_ the damn header.

How do I know all this? I did a little research from the comfort
of my armchair. Didn't even break a sweat.

5 minutes.

I accessed info from the web regarding Stephens' bogus Naval
SEAL background in less time than that. Given Gersten's claim
that Stephens fooled him for over 80 days, I calculate that
Peter had over 23,040 missed opportunities (at five minutes
each) to check on Stephens' bogus background. So why didn't he?
For the same reason he didn't check out his own damn email, I
guess.

Finally, Peter Gersten offered this early in the post:

>Roger Evans? Do not
>think I have heard that name before. But I am sure it is simply
>an oversight on my part. So please enlighten me as to your
>contribution to the UFO movement.

You were just a part of it, Peter.

Later,

Roger "Lazee-boy" Evans






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 7

                           Re: The Stephens Affair

From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net>
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 02:07:44 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 07 Jan 1999 07:48:58 -0500
Subject: Re: The Stephens Affair


>From: John W. Ratcliff <jratclif@inlink.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: The Stephens Affair
>Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 20:21:34 -0600

>Geri & Alfred Webre <Ecotoday@aol.com> wrote:

>>Stephens appears to be a "guided missile," a spreader of
>>mis/disinformation whose function it is to get the UFO community
>>confused and attacking each other. "Guided missiles" also appear
>>in other fields of public interest research, such as
>>assassination research.

>Sigh, I guess it's worthwhile to voice a point of view that
>doesn't have roots in the mythological machinery of Art Bell,
>Rense, and others who are in the field of paranormal and
>conspiratorial entertainment.


Hi John,

Just a quicky and then I'm outta here.

I'll thank you to leave Jeff Rense off of your sh*t list. He's a
good man doing an honorable job. Not all media people are
charlatans. Jeff Rense is an exception to the rule. (As is EBK
with his 'Strange Days... Indeed') Jeff is an honorable guy and
has proven himself (to me) to be a man of character as well. I
have that as first hand knowledge from having dealt with him
directly. I just wanted to interject that.

Back to your thread. Thanx for tolerating my 'pop-in'.

Peace,

John Velez, Webmaster IF-AIC
________________________________________________
                                jvif@spacelab.net
INTRUDERS FOUNDATION/ABDUCTION INFORMATION CENTER
                            http://www.if-aic.com
"Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind."
________________________________________________






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 7

              [CAUS] - Mysterious Signal Update and Finnish Air

From: Peter Gersten <UFOLAWYER1@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 01:27:57 EST
Fwd Date: Thu, 07 Jan 1999 07:59:57 -0500
Subject: [CAUS] - Mysterious Signal Update and Finnish Air

[Hot from the list to which updates@globalserve.net is
 'not' subscribed -- ebk]

Dear CAUS Members:

On this Thursday, CAUS shares with you an update on a signal
coming from the vicinity of the moon and an interesting report
on a UFO-jet air battle over Finland.

MYSTERIOUS SIGNAL STILL DETECTED.

CAUS thanks Charlie Plyler (cplyler@i-america.net) and Kent
Steadman (Phikent@aol.com) for their reports:

1) Charlie writes:

This seems to be a continuing pattern but I will have to
perform a daily data analysis to be certain.  We have just
recovered from an ice storm complete with power outages.  The
most critical problem we had during the period were the constant
surges and arcs indicated by current flows in the earth.

I have looked into the .9hz signal a little more thoroughly and
it is a real oddity.  These signals occur on a daily basis in
most cases however will miss a day or two.  I am in the process
of going back into the files and pulling out the data for the
frequencies and times of interest.

Below is a table which you may find interesting. The last
column indicates distance difference between the wavelength and
the moon.

 Date     Time      Frequency  Wavelength       Distance to Moon

 12/06/98 10:09 UT  .9275 hz   323,256 km       384,016 km   60,260 km
 12/08/98 20:28 UT  .9375 hz   324,129 km       374,991 km   50,862 km
 12/22/98 10:09 UT  .9373 hz   319,876 km       387,692 km   67,816 km
 12/30/98 10:07 UT  .9380 hz   319,637 km       363,858 km   44,226 km
 01/01/99 10:07 UT  .9369 hz   320,012 km       366,271 km   46,259 km
 01/04/99 10:12 UT  .9375 hz   319,808 km       378,238 km   58,430 km
 01/05/99 20:36 UT  .9374 hz   319,842 km       386,249 km   66,952 km
 01/06/99 10:43 UT  .9390 hz   319,297 km       389,492 km   70,195 km

If you look starting on the date of 12/30 you will be able to
see more clearly the ratio of the signal to the moon's apogee
and perigee. The moon is moving away from the earth.  The signal
is doing so also, but not in proportion to the rate of the moon.
Also on 01/06 the signal wavelength is shorter as if it had
already reached it's opogee and has started going in the other
direction. (http://www.elfrad.com/)


CAUS note: (apogee: the point in the orbit of an object (as a
satellite) orbiting the earth that is at the greatest distance
from the center of the earth; also: the point  farthest from a
planet or a satellite (as the moon) reached by an object
orbiting it -- compare Perigee: the point in the orbit of an
object (as a satellite) orbiting the earth that is nearest to
the center of the earth; also: the point nearest a planet or a
satellite (as the moon) reached by an object orbiting it)

Kent writes:

Focusing now on the signal watch, I am constantly updating the
info and graphic support at ORBIT, including links to Charlie's
data charts and my interpretations. I would suggest this URL be
circulated for the latest:
http://members.aol.com/phikent/orbit/orbit.html

CAUS is seeking the help of anyone with the necessary expertise
to help determine what this signal is.  CAUS is requesting that
anyone with an appropriate telescope look at the moon, in
particular near the rim--Mare Orientales as a starting point.
Please report any oddities, lights, or red or orange glow.

UFOs-JET BATTLE OVER FINLAND

CAUS thanks Joseph Trainor, editor of UFO ROUNDUP (Volume 4,
Number 1 January 5, 1999) for this report:

Ufologists in Finland are looking into a reported air battle
between a Finnish jet fighter and a squadron of five UFOs.

According to Lars Osterman, the dogfight took place on March 31,
1997 in northern Finland.  Local researchers learned of it when
the pilot, whose name has been kept under wraps, phoned a radio
talk show and reportedly said he was "having trouble dealing
with" the experience.

According to Osterman, the fighter was an F-18A Hornet of the
Suomen Ilmaviomat (Finnish Air Force--J.T.), which was posted to
the Lapin Lennosto (Far North Air Department) air base at
Rovaniemi, 400 kilometers (240 miles) north of Helsinki.

The F-18 took off on "a routine 960-kilometer patrol of the
border" with Russia.  As the jet flew over the frozen tundra
southeast of Lake Inarijarvi, the pilot spotted three discoid
UFOs flying in a northeasterly direction. Going in for a closer
look, the pilot saw that "there seemed to be five saucers,
instead of just three."  He then radioed Rovaniemi and advised
them of the situation.  Lapin Lennosto Flight Control ordered
him to intercept the objects.

The five UFOs, described by the pilot as "glowing orange
objects," veered sharply to the Northwest.  The F-18 pursued
them to Ivalo, a city 200 kilometers (120 miles) north of
Rovaniemi.  From there, the F-18 chased the saucers west to
Inari, 40 kilometers (24 miles) to the Northwest.  Then the
saucers darted eastward, high above Lake Inarijarvi.

The pilot told Flight Control that the UFOs were breaking
formation and requested permission to fire at them.  Flight
Control responded, "Permission granted.  Fire at will." The
pilot got behind one glowing saucer and lined it up with the
reticule on his windshield "heads up" display.  But instead of
picking up the "target acquisition tone" in his earphones, he
heard the raucous honk of an alarm.  All at once, the targeting
computer went off-line.  The "heads up" display disappeared.
The F-18's firing system for the 20mm cannon was also down.
Instantly the pilot hit the "arming" switch for his air-to-air
missiles.  The red Malfunction light began blinking on the
dashboard.

According to Osterman, the saucers regrouped and flew away to
the East "at Mach 4 or 5.  They had an orange glow around them."
None of the F-18's flight control systems were affected, and the
pilot returned safely to Rovaniemi.  "They tested the computers
for days afterward but could find nothing wrong with them," he
added.  The saucers crossed the border and were last seen
heading for Talvikula in Russia.  (Email Interview)

Hope everyone has a conflictless Thursday and of CAUS...watch the skies!

Peter A. Gersten
Director


Be sure to visit the CAUS web site at http://caus.org
To join this mailing list, go to http://caus.org/feedback.htm

To be REMOVED from this mailing list, go to... http://caus.org/remove/

Served by TheHostPros.com - http://TheHostPros.com






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 7

                     Re: Art Bell - Friday, January 8/9

From: Stephen G. Bassett <SGBList2@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 03:21:31 EST
Fwd Date: Thu, 07 Jan 1999 09:19:01 -0500
Subject: Re: Art Bell - Friday, January 8/9

>From: James Bond Johnson <JBONJO@aol.com>
>Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 14:02:53 EST
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Re: Art Bell - Friday, January 8/9

>>From: Stephen G. Bassett <ParadigmRG@aol.com>
>>To: updates@globalserve.net
>>Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 01:17:39 EST
>>Subject: Art Bell - Friday, January 8/9

>>Disclosure '99?  A Look Back and Ahead

>>Art Bell - Coast to Coast - January 8/9, 1999

>>Art Bell will talk with

><snip>

>>Stephen Bassett is the founder of Paradigm Research Group, the

>>author of The Paradigm Clock http://www.paradigmclock.com and
>>the only registered lobbyist in the United States representing
>>extraterrestrial phenomena research and activist organizations.

>This statement is slightly in error.

>My personal lobbyist, William Casselman II, long officially
>registered on my behalf with both houses of Congress, is very
>much involved with representing on the Hill the interests of
>RPIT (Roswell Photo Interpretation Team) in its current Roswell
>Revisitation Project.

>As it has been reported on UFO UpDates, my members of congress
>have been petitioned to insist that the US Government without
>further delay "unlock the Roswell craft garage" and permit an
>open and complete inspection of the announced "captured"
>wreckage, all designed to solve the Roswell Riddle after 51
>years!

<snip>

James,

Duly noted with interest.  If anyone else knows or has a
lobbyist registering an issue(s) in the field of
extraterrestrial phenomena research, please contact me at:
ParadigmRG@aol.com

Thanks,
Steve Bassett





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 7

                     Re: Art Bell - Friday, January 8/9

From: Stephen G. Bassett <SGBList2@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 03:40:37 EST
Fwd Date: Thu, 07 Jan 1999 09:25:54 -0500
Subject: Re: Art Bell - Friday, January 8/9


>Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 16:36:10 -0500
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net>
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Art Bell - Friday, January 8/9

>>From: Stephen G. Bassett <ParadigmRG@aol.com>
>>To: updates@globalserve.net
>>Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 01:17:39 EST
>>Subject: Art Bell - Friday, January 8/9

>>Disclosure '99?  A Look Back and Ahead

>>Art Bell - Coast to Coast - January 8/9, 1999

>>Art Bell will talk with Stephen Bassett in a 5-hour recap and
>>commentary on what happened and didn't happen in 1998 in the
>>UFO/extraterrestrial phenomena research field and a look ahead
>>at the year to come from people directly involved in the issues
>>and events.

><snip>

>Hi All,

>LMAO! _These_ are the guys who are going to evaluate last years
>progress (or lack of it) in ufology?

>Isn't this also a list of names of the same guys that are at the
>root of _what_is_wrong_ with ufology?

>And Art Bell is hosting! Oh man, this is just too rich. Excuse
>me while I drop off my chair (again) and roll around on the
>floor laughing my keester off.

>There is a physics lesson hidden in here somewhere. Let me see
>if I can sus it out, . . .

>A. Art Bell is the most full of sh*t of the lot.

>B. So it stands to reason that he has more 'mass' than the
>others.

>C. Therefore, his gravitational pull on the other smaller
>'turds' causes them to, . . .

>D. gravitate towards Bell. - Where, . . .

>E. . . . they eventually assume permanent orbits around their
>primary.

>How was that?

>A good 'empirical' test of this theory would be to flush, and
>then carefully observe - a toilet. (Following a substantial
>bowel movement.) Same 'principle' applies here with only one
>glaring exception: *Unless you are South of the Equator. In
>which case the "planetoids" will orbit the "main mass" in a
>counter clockwise direction!

>Bell
>Greer
>Gersten
>Hoagland

>Talk about "piled high and deep!"

Mr. Velez

It is not particularly comfortable to check into a scientific
inquiry mail list and see one's associates referred to as
"turds".

However, your post was funny in some respects. I can only assume
your skill at using this particular metaphor comes from a
substantially protracted period wherein your head has been
thoroughly entrenched in your ass.

Regards,
Stephen Bassett





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 7

                         Re: 'Pumpkin Seed' Aircraft

From: Tim Matthews <matthews@zetnet.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 23:37:55 -0000
Fwd Date: Thu, 07 Jan 1999 09:29:03 -0500
Subject: Re: 'Pumpkin Seed' Aircraft


>From: Larry Clark <lclark@ibm.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: 'Pumpkin Seed' Aircraft
>Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 19:32:03 -0000

>Question: Has anyone heard of any experimental government
>aircraft as referred to as 'pumpkin seeds'?

>Larry Clark
>www.nymufon.org

Yes, but there were only a few brief mentions in some editions
of 'Aviation Week' back in the early 1990s as far as I know.
Whilst there may well be some similar type of aircraft the
evidence for it is very slim indeed and in fact, if my memory
serves me correctly, one of the stories about this turned out to
be made up!

Nevertheless, there are various black project aircraft of a
triangular nature still to emerge from the shadows....

I'll try and get more refs for you.

Tim matthews






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 7

                           Re: The Stephens Affair

From: Bob Shell <bob@bobshell.com>
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 08:04:18 -0500 (EST)
Fwd Date: Thu, 07 Jan 1999 09:30:47 -0500
Subject: Re: The Stephens Affair


>From: John W. Ratcliff <jratclif@inlink.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: The Stephens Affair
>Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 20:21:34 -0600


Hi John,

What you said, Bro!

Bob


P.S.: Glad to see you posting again.  We need "heads" like yours
in this weird, wacky field.





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 7

                       Re: FOX Hoax Special - Reaction

From: Bob Shell <bob@bobshell.com>
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 08:11:08 -0500 (EST)
Fwd Date: Thu, 07 Jan 1999 09:33:44 -0500
Subject: Re: FOX Hoax Special - Reaction


>From: Gildas Bourdais <GBourdais@aol.com>
>Date: Fri, 1 Jan 1999 12:57:35 EST
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Re: FOX Hoax Special - Reaction

>>Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 22:59:22 -0500
>>From: James Easton <pulsar@compuserve.com>
>>Subject: UFO UpDate: Re: FOX Hoax Special - Reaction
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>

>>Regarding the FOX 'Hoax Special' program...

><snip>

>>Still many more questions than answers.

>Thank you for your interesting analysis, and your very
>appropriate conclusion, it seems to me. Just a few more
>thoughts:

<snip>

>So what happened ?? I am surprised that the very possible
>hypothesis of a "secret services" operation has been paid so
>little attention, apparently (or am I wrong here ?). And yet,
>there are many precedents. If we go back in time, we know that,
>for instance, AFOSI issued doctored documents and informations
>to ufological circles, some of them through William Moore, who
>confessed it. So, why not a film ?

Actually, Ray Santilli has suggested just that to me.  He thinks
he may have been selected and duped by such an operation.

>Incidentally, I may have some information to release soon on the
>"KGB secrets" TV production. Russian ufologist Boris Shurinov,
>to whom I sent the video, has already presented a rather
>devastating analysis of it at a recent conference in Italy
>(Cagliari, in Sardinia, 12 december 1998). He is to send me soon
>a summary of it (he was completing his inquiry)  with his
>authorization to circulate it. Just to give an example,  he
>claims that the uniforms of the soldiers are not correct : they
>wear an officer's belt! Again, we will have to wonder about who
>made that video.

I would appreciate it very much if you would send me Boris's
address by e-mail.  He gave it to me when we met in San Marino a
couple of years ago, but I somehow managed to lose it.  I want
to send him some promised material.  BTW, at the time we met he
was convinced that the Santilli film was genuine.

Bob Shell





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 7

                             Re: Fox TV Special

From: Bob Shell <bob@bobshell.com>
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 08:15:52 -0500 (EST)
Fwd Date: Thu, 07 Jan 1999 09:36:16 -0500
Subject: Re: Fox TV Special


>From: Gildas Bourdais <GBourdais@aol.com>
>Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1999 11:59:31 EST
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Re: Fox TV Special

>>Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 10:10:05 -0600
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>From: Michael Christol <mchristo@mindspring.com>
>>Subject: Re: Fox TV Special

>>>Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 01:16:36 -0500
>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>>From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net>
>>>Subject: Re: Fox TV Special

>>As far as Kal Korff goes...He has been a staunch attacker of
>>the Billy Meier case since he was 16 years old. Kal is a
>>compadre' of old William (Bill) Moore's. If you remember the
>>1989 MUFON CONVENTION, speech Moore made in Las Vegas, Nevada,
>>then you know of what I speak.

I have to admit a great deal of puzzlement over Meier. On the
face of it, he seems an obvious hoaxer. And some of his photos
do, indeed, seem to be rather crude fakes.

However, there are other photos from him which are much more
difficult to explain, and I am currently looking as some of them
which Wendelle Stevens has kindly loaned me. Those showing
multiple UFOs passing behind tree branches are the ones most
difficult to consider as hoaxes.

It is a shame that all of the available material is so far
removed from first generation, since this makes definitive
analysis practically impossible.

Bob Shell





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 7

                         Re: 'Pumpkin Seed' Aircraft

From: Jan Aldrich <jan@cyberzone.net>
Date: Thu, 07 Jan 1999 08:52:04 -0800
Fwd Date: Thu, 07 Jan 1999 09:41:29 -0500
Subject: Re: 'Pumpkin Seed' Aircraft


>From: Larry Clark <lclark@ibm.net>
>Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 19:32:03 -0000
>Fwd Date: Wed, 06 Jan 1999 23:39:11 -0500
>Subject: 'Pumpkin Seed' Aircraft

>Question: Has anyone heard of any experimental government
>aircraft as referred to as 'pumpkin seeds'?

>Larry Clark
>www.nymufon.org


Hi Larry,

That is Alfred Loedding's name for his low-aspect ratio aircraft
which he was testing.

I think Wendy Connors and Michael Hall will surely mention it in
their new book, 'Alfred Loedding and the Great UFO Wave of
1947'.
Jan
--
Jan Aldrich
Project 1947
http://www.iufog.org/project1947/
P. O. Box 391, Canterbury, CT 06331, USA





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 7

                     Re: Art Bell - Friday, January 8/9

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Thu, 07 Jan 1999 09:29:47 -0600
Fwd Date: Thu, 07 Jan 1999 17:47:55 -0500
Subject: Re: Art Bell - Friday, January 8/9


>From: Stephen G. Bassett <SGBList2@aol.com>
>Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 03:40:37 EST
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Re: Art Bell - Friday, January 8/9

>>Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 16:36:10 -0500
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net>
>>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Art Bell - Friday, January 8/9

>>>From: Stephen G. Bassett <ParadigmRG@aol.com>
>>>To: updates@globalserve.net
>>>Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 01:17:39 EST
>>>Subject: Art Bell - Friday, January 8/9

>>>Disclosure '99?  A Look Back and Ahead

>>>Art Bell - Coast to Coast - January 8/9, 1999

>>>Art Bell will talk with Stephen Bassett in a 5-hour recap and
>>>commentary on what happened and didn't happen in 1998 in the
>>>UFO/extraterrestrial phenomena research field and a look ahead
>>>at the year to come from people directly involved in the issues
>>>and events.

>><snip>

>>Hi All,

>>LMAO! _These_ are the guys who are going to evaluate last years
>>progress (or lack of it) in ufology?

>>Isn't this also a list of names of the same guys that are at the
>>root of _what_is_wrong_ with ufology?

>>Talk about "piled high and deep!"

>Mr. Velez

>It is not particularly comfortable to check into a scientific
>inquiry mail list and see one's associates referred to as
>"turds".

>However, your post was funny in some respects. I can only assume
>your skill at using this particular metaphor comes from a
>substantially protracted period wherein your head has been
>thoroughly entrenched in your ass.

>Regards,
>Stephen Bassett


Plump the cushions, pop the corn, fun to watch for some I'm
sure. Watch respect get flushed away; watch us turn the clock
back -- Hey! Say those things you'll soon regret, make no peace,
but better yet, take your cheap shots where you can, or piss and
moan if that's your brand! Wrap yourself in litigation; lose
your will and concentration. Keep your fulsome fires fanned --
with too much heat the light's been banned. Regarding usage --
anal pores, and ear lobes popping back and forth? That's on
usenet, we refrain from *cheaper* shots that wound and stain.
Let's keep the talk enlightened -- civil. Let's argue on the
facts, not drivel. Let's rise above this stirred up murk where
evils roam, and devils lurk. Let's keep our mind upon the prize,
and eyes upon our endless skies. We'll be better for it, sure,
and that's the pay-off -- sweet and pure.

Lehmberg@snowhill.com

It'll make the saucers come down <g>.




>Explore the Alien View!

Ponder the Wit & Wisdom of Ching Chow!

http://www.fortunecity.com/roswell/arecibo/46/

<Updated 29 December>

John Ford Restoration Fund -- Send your checks and
money orders to _me_, Alfred Lehmberg
(cut out the lawyers, they got their's) at:
304 Melbourne Drive, Enterprise AL, 36330. Strict records kept.

"Only thin, _very light_ envelopes with a return address will be
accepted <g>." ~~~ $225.00 pledged -- $125.00 collected ~~~

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see from
afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, while burning at the





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 7

                      Fifth Horseman of the Apocalypse

From: Jan Aldrich <jan@cyberzone.net>
Date: Thu, 07 Jan 1999 10:38:37 -0800
Fwd Date: Thu, 07 Jan 1999 22:34:32 -0500
Subject: Fifth Horseman of the Apocalypse


A suggestion conerning Loren Gross' books:  Place the material
on CD-rom.  Several people have asked about this possibility.

Is there any interest in such a project?

Thanks.
--
Jan Aldrich
Project 1947
http://www.iufog.org/project1947/
P. O. Box 391, Canterbury, CT 06331, USA





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 7

                             Re: Fox TV Special

From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj@proaxis.com>
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 10:14:09 -0800 (PST)
Fwd Date: Thu, 07 Jan 1999 22:36:45 -0500
Subject: Re: Fox TV Special


>Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 08:15:52 -0500 (EST)
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Bob Shell <bob@bobshell.com>
>Subject: Re: Fox TV Special

Bob wrote:

>I have to admit a great deal of puzzlement over Meier. On the
>face of it, he seems an obvious hoaxer. And some of his photos
>do, indeed, seem to be rather crude fakes.

>However, there are other photos from him which are much more
>difficult to explain, and I am currently looking as some of them
>which Wendelle Stevens has kindly loaned me. Those showing
>multiple UFOs passing behind tree branches are the ones most
>difficult to consider as hoaxes.

>It is a shame that all of the available material is so far
>removed from first generation, since this makes definitive
>analysis practically impossible.

The interested person should try to get hold of a few of Meier's
photos from his Fuchsbuel-Hofhalden series showing the craft on
all sides of a particular evergreen tree. There it is not as
crucial, considering the photos date to 1975, that they be first
generation, since in some the craft behind the tree shows
through gaps and holes within the tree's branches.

I once took several photos from this series, including the one
that best shows the tree's trunk, to a couple of professors in
Forestry at Oregon State University, and asked if they could
identify what kind of a tree it was. They had no trouble
pronouncing it a mature abies alba (European silver fir), and
definitely no model tree. If it had been a model tree, its lower
half would have been obscured by the tall meadow grass existent
there in July, and it could not have been identified as a
particular species having a top already showing signs of
"storknesting" or arrested growth due to environmental stress.

Yet, the hypothesis of a model UFO attached to a model tree has
been the only way out for persons like Korff, who has pushed
this hypothesis but has never reported having sought
professional opinion about the tree.

In making the model-tree claim, Korff has noted a certain
similarity between that tree and the one in a different location
about which the craft was filmed by Meier to circle or swing,
almost as if it were a model on a string acting like a pendulum.
So Korff has claimed both trees were the same model. However,
the similarity in the trees' outlines is only superficial upon
close inspection.

If you take a couple of the photo copies from the
Fuchsbuel-Hofhalden series to an appropriate professor in
forestry for an opinion on the tree, it is of course important
that you not end up with one who thinks genuine UFOs cannot
exist. All bets would then be off as to the trustworthiness of
his opinion in this instance. The leading professor in forestry
I happened to take them to said he had an open mind regarding
UFOs. He had been raised in West Germany and had been accustomed
to seeing the European silver firs in that general vicinity.
This tree has been loosely called a "weather pine" in some of
Wendelle Stevens' books. Wendelle still retains, I believe, over
two dozen Meier UFO photos of second generation.

Those interested in learning more about the Meier case from
first-hand investigators and first-hand witnesses could consider
attending the Tuesday afternoon session of the 8th Annual
International UFO Congress in Laughlin, NV, on Feb. 23rd.
Speakers then will be Wendelle Stevens, Michael Hesemann, one of
Meier's two sons, and the woman who, when she was a child at her
grandfather's ashram near Mehrauli, India, in 1964, had
witnessed Meier with Asket.

Jim Deardorff
Corvallis, Oregon
E-mail: deardorj@proaxis.com





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 7

               Re: NASA's Stephens Admits to CAUS That He is a

From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@connectmmic.net>
Date: Thu, 07 Jan 1999 13:35:38 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 07 Jan 1999 22:43:54 -0500
Subject: Re: NASA's Stephens Admits to CAUS That He is a


>From: Peter Gersten <UFOLAWYER1@aol.com>
>Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 01:46:34 EST
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Cc: moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com
>Subject: Re: NASA's Stephens Admits to CAUS That He is a Fraud

> [Non-subscriber Post - Open Mailer - Insert Foot...]


>>From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
>>Date: Tue, 05 Jan 1999 10:32:16 +0000
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>Subject: NASA's Stephens Admits to CAUS That He is a Fraud

<snip>

>Roger Evans? Do not
>think I have heard that name before. But I am sure it is simply
>an oversight on my part. So please enlighten me as to your
>contribution to the UFO movement..other than representing the
>outrage of 'your list' to my use of the pronoun 'we.'

<snip>

>You got me there....I do not read your list.* Didn't know it was
>required reading.

<snip>

>How was I fooled my friend? Majority of what? My 6500 members?
>How many People are on your list? Did your poll the list? And
>why would I care whether 'your list' was fooled or not.

<snip>

> [No? There are about 200 posts - directly from your list -
>  sitting in my archive here. Missing the evidentiary clues
>  again Mr. Gersten? And I'm quite sure that a few of the
>  _many_ knowledge-able subscribers to UpDates will be most
>  happy to respond to you via this List. I'll be sure to pass
>  them on to you. --ebk]

etc.

Mr. Lawyer,

Please realize that yourself - more specifically CAUS - were the
main victims of the Stephens incident.

Stephens came right at you, you believed him, and got deceived.
Instead of Clintonizing the issue, I suggest you use your wits
to figure out why it happened and how you're gonna get out of
this mess.  Looks like clear intent <g>: you were the target.

No use killing a messenger like Roger Evans: you know very well
it's cheap tactics in LOST causes.  Better use your efforts to
win this case, otherwise you will only end out to prove that
being a somebody only makes Gertsen a bigger ass than a nobody.

On a personal point of view, judging from your attitude towards
Barry Greenwood in your CAUS take-over, I think you deserved
Stephens.






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 7

               Re: NASA's Stephens Admits to CAUS That He is a

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 13:37:58 EST
Fwd Date: Thu, 07 Jan 1999 22:47:42 -0500
Subject: Re: NASA's Stephens Admits to CAUS That He is a


Without wishing to name names, quote quotes, read notes or
bother folks... by throwing their own words back down their
throats and making noises much like goats (Hey Lehmberg, just
call me Rembaud!)...

And... After reading the threads, the accusations, castigations
and manifestations of the demonetization of one the other on
subjects which, when taken together and rehashed over and over
tend to demonstrate one of three things... (I am so very sorry I
could not get that to rhyme, writer's block.... it happens)...

1) They detract from the sum total of human knowledge (which is
already a lot like the ozone layer....) by continued
bickering...

2) They are manifest of a little known but sometimes
debilitating illness often referred to as the "Nya, Nya"
Syndrome ... you've heard it before...

"They do!"
"Do not!"
"DO"
"NOT"

"Nya Nya"

I Said three things, did I not?  Well, uh, I forgot what the
hell the third thing was.... Alzheimer's, you know ... it can be
frustrating, yet sublimely soothing.  Much like Gripple!

And in order to appease Torontoites, Torontotities,
Torontians... uh, well just plain Canadians...

"Eh?"

You're welcome!

In conclusion... and relative to the ongoing argument on
Stevens, I wish to contribute by using the following logic,
which when confronted by emotion, never wins a debate...

NYA, NYA!

Dr. Morty
See my latest monograph on "Viewing Flying Saucers on Gripple"





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 7

                   Re: Stephens Statement: "A Total Fraud"

From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net>
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 13:30:40 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 07 Jan 1999 22:49:44 -0500
Subject: Re: Stephens Statement: "A Total Fraud"


>From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
>Date: Thu, 07 Jan 1999 01:41:52 +0000
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Stephens Statement: "A Total Fraud"

>>Roger, you can't know how much I would love going on Art Bell's
>>show. The things it would do my sales!

>What the hell is this?

>After weeks of hiding in the shadows from my single question,
>you suddenly come up for air because of a commercial
>opportunity?

>"The things it would do my sales"?

>It would "do yo' sales" even more good if you'd stop avoiding
>the issues. You do realize, Gary, that even someone like Art
>Bell is likely to ask you real questions and expect real
>answers?

>Unbelievable. I hope you get your wish.

But he has to publish his book first. Do you have a publisher,
Gary?

Greg Sandow






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 7

                     Re: Art Bell - Friday, January 8/9

From: John <jvif@spacelab.net>
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 15:07:53 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 07 Jan 1999 22:53:51 -0500
Subject: Re: Art Bell - Friday, January 8/9


>From: Stephen G. Bassett <SGBList2@aol.com>
>Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 03:40:37 EST
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Re: Art Bell - Friday, January 8/9

>>Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 16:36:10 -0500
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net>
>>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Art Bell - Friday, January 8/9

>>>From: Stephen G. Bassett <ParadigmRG@aol.com>
>>>To: updates@globalserve.net
>>>Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 01:17:39 EST
>>>Subject: Art Bell - Friday, January 8/9

>>>Disclosure '99?  A Look Back and Ahead

>>>Art Bell - Coast to Coast - January 8/9, 1999

>>>Art Bell will talk with Stephen Bassett in a 5-hour recap and
>>>commentary on what happened and didn't happen in 1998 in the
>>>UFO/extraterrestrial phenomena research field and a look ahead
>>>at the year to come from people directly involved in the issues
>>>and events.

>><snip>

>>Hi All,

>>LMAO! _These_ are the guys who are going to evaluate last years
>>progress (or lack of it) in ufology?

>>Isn't this also a list of names of the same guys that are at the
>>root of _what_is_wrong_ with ufology?

<snip>

Stephen writes:

>Mr. Velez

>It is not particularly comfortable to check into a scientific
>inquiry mail list and see one's associates referred to as
>"turds".

There is an axiom in Spanish that goes; "Digame con quien
andas, y te digo quien eres!' Roughly translated it means;

"Tell me who you walk with, (who your friends are) and I'll
tell you who _you_ are!"

It's a "Like attracts like" reference.

If you read the entire post you know that it was just an
expression of personal opinion and did not require a response.
It wasn't intended as fuel for debate.

>However, your post was funny in some respects. I can only assume
>your skill at using this particular metaphor comes from a
>substantially protracted period wherein your head has been
>thoroughly entrenched in your ass.

Geez, sounds like I 'winged' you! Something about my choice of
'metaphors' apparently resonated with you powerfully enough (hit
home) to elicit such genuine emotion from you. I never even
mentioned your name! :-D

During my wonderfully misspent youth growing up in Manhattan I
had occasion to play pool. There are times in the game when you
aim carefully because you want to sink a specific ball, and if
you 'nick' (or sink) any of the others on the table it is
referred to as a 'carom shot'.

I believe that is what happened here. The lesson for you may be:
Don't hang around with 'balls' that are situated in close
proximation to deep cavernous holes! ;-D

Your _reaction_ to my _opinion_, "has been duly noted."
(As you are so fond of saying.)

Peace,

John Velez (Speaking strictly for myself)
________________________________________________
                                jvif@spacelab.net
INTRUDERS FOUNDATION/ABDUCTION INFORMATION CENTER
                            http://www.if-aic.com
"Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind."
________________________________________________






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 8

                        Flying Saucer Gazette is up!

From: Scott Carr <sardonica@erols.com>
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 16:03:11 -0800
Fwd Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 01:19:44 -0500
Subject: Flying Saucer Gazette is up!


Dear FSG readers,

After a one month hiatus, during which we have been feverishly
finishing our novel "Incident At Sardonica"
( www.erols.com/sardonica/sardonica ) and promoting "UFO Desk"
99.5 FM WBAI, NY, we are finally back on track with The Flying
Saucer Gazette.

You can check out the November/December issue of FSG at:
www.erols.com/sardonica and you can look forward to the January
issue by the end of the month!

As always, thank you for your patience, and we look forward to
hearing from you!

Sincerely,

-Scott C. Carr
Editor, The Flying Saucer Gazette
http://www.erols.com/sardonica

Producer, "UFO Desk"
99.5 FM WBAI, NY






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 8

                         Re: 'Pumpkin Seed' Aircraft

From: Larry Clark <lclark@ibm.net>
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 17:10:07 -0000
Fwd Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 01:23:18 -0500
Subject: Re: 'Pumpkin Seed' Aircraft


>Date: Thu, 07 Jan 1999 08:52:04 -0800
>From: Jan Aldrich <jan@cyberzone.net>
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Re: 'Pumpkin Seed' Aircraft

>>From: Larry Clark <lclark@ibm.net>
>>Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 19:32:03 -0000
>>Fwd Date: Wed, 06 Jan 1999 23:39:11 -0500
>>Subject: 'Pumpkin Seed' Aircraft

>>Question: Has anyone heard of any experimental government
>>aircraft as referred to as 'pumpkin seeds'?


>Hi Larry,

>That is Alfred Loedding's name for his low-aspect ratio aircraft
>which he was testing.

>I think Wendy Connors and Michael Hall will surely mention it in
>their new book, 'Alfred Loedding and the Great UFO Wave of
>1947'.

Hi Jan:

Wendy mentioned Loedding. Oddly, it was not a historical
question. I was chasing a local rumor that a airman on leave was
saying the U.S. is currently testing  'secret' craft throughout
the county and it is referred to as the 'pumpkin seed' .

BTW, have some clipping from the 50's I be sending in a few
days.

Regards,
Larry Clark






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 8

                         Re: 'Pumpkin Seed' Aircraft

From: Larry Clark <lclark@ibm.net>
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 17:13:22 -0000
Fwd Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 01:25:27 -0500
Subject: Re: 'Pumpkin Seed' Aircraft


>From: Tim Matthews <matthews@zetnet.co.uk>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: 'Pumpkin Seed' Aircraft
>Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 23:37:55 -0000

>>From: Larry Clark <lclark@ibm.net>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>Subject: Re: 'Pumpkin Seed' Aircraft
>>Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 19:32:03 -0000

>>Question: Has anyone heard of any experimental government
>>aircraft as referred to as 'pumpkin seeds'?

>>Larry Clark
>>www.nymufon.org

>Yes, but there were only a few brief mentions in some editions
>of 'Aviation Week' back in the early 1990s as far as I know.
>Whilst there may well be some similar type of aircraft the
>evidence for it is very slim indeed and in fact, if my memory
>serves me correctly, one of the stories about this turned out to
>be made up!

>Nevertheless, there are various black project aircraft of a
>triangular nature still to emerge from the shadows....

>I'll try and get more refs for you.


Hi:

Thanks Tim. As you may have noticed from Jan Aldrich's post, it
was a name that has some history.

Regards,
Larry Clark






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 8

                       Re: FOX Hoax Special - Reaction

From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
Date: Thu, 07 Jan 1999 17:34:50 +0000
Fwd Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 01:30:13 -0500
Subject: Re: FOX Hoax Special - Reaction


>From: Gildas Bourdais <GBourdais@aol.com>
>Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1999 07:11:41 EST
>Fwd Date: Thu, 07 Jan 1999 06:44:32 -0500
>Subject: Re: FOX Hoax Special - Reaction

Previously, Gildas wrote:

>I find very improbable that Ray Santilli, a small
>music producer, would have launched in such a risky and costly
>operation of producing a highly complex hoax by himself. Just
>think of the risk of a member of the production team leaking any
>part of the story, even inadvertantly, any time in the future.
>For instance when talking to a friend, who would repeat it, etc.
>Santilli would soon have several dozens of TV networks suing him
>and would end up in jail for swindling. On the other hand the
>mere fact that he put the film on the market means that he was
>very sure of not being prosecuted.

Hi Gildas,

I think there is a general misconception people have about the
overall "high expense" and "risk" of producing the AA footage.
Nothing visible on screen is so unique that it couldn't be found
in garage sales and resale shops. I know of at least four
surplus places in Houston, alone, that would have all the old
surgical hardware such as table, instruments, gowns etc. If I
had to put a dollar figure on it all, I doubt it would top
$5,000 and that would be generous. The alien, of course, would
have to be manufactured. However, despite much admiration some
people seem to have for the "realistic" look of the alien, I
personally find it to be quite stiff and crude. I know half a
dozen guys in the low budget film industry that could do a
better job for under $10,000 and would take the money and keep
their mouths shut because they would just be happy to have the
work!

Finding the old film stock is not impossible. I, personally,
have stumbled onto old rolls of B&W film dating back to 1958. I
shot them and they processed up just fine, though a little
grainy. Therefore, film and processing is practically free, as
is the old Bell and Howell it was probably shot with. I wouldn't
be surprised if the camera and film were found together in
someone's attic! From the look of it, I doubt very seriously
that a trained camera man shot one single frame, so you know his
cost was doodly-squat.

The actor's faces were conveniently covered, so their "fees"
would be minimal, probably no more than $200 per person, if even
that. Santilli could easily afford to "sweeten" the deal by
doubling or tripling their fees to keep them quiet, though it
really wouldn't be necessary.

In all, I doubt that Santilli spent more than $20,000 dollars.
Peanuts at double that price, especially if he can sell the
video to network television or offer it to the sell-through
market on home video. I'm sure he's spent as much producing a
single music video. I know I have, even for an unknown group
with little or no hope of making it commercially as a result of
the video.

As far as risk is concerned; there really isn't any. Since no
faces are shown, all involved would be sorely lacking in proof
if they tried to "squeal" on Santilli. In fact, should any of
the actors cause him to lose money by making claims that they
can't prove, Santilli could sue THEM and would probably win,
too.

Gilda continued by offering this:

>However, many parts of his
>story, such as the camaraman's story, are not credible. Just to
>mention the claim of having kept highly secret reels and
>developped them himself. The story is preposrerous, and
>therefore Santilli did not get the film the way he says.

Agreed.

I've posted earlier why I find the notion of some guy processing
several hundred feet of film in a bucket and trying to find a
place to hang-dry it really stupid. I know Bob Shell disagrees,
and he has his reasons. But it makes no sense to me at all,
despite the army manuals of the day claiming that it could be
done. A friend of mine has an old army manual about personal
hygiene that tells recruits to clip the corners of their
toe-nails close to the skin "for greater comfort", I believe.
None of them did, of course, because it would always cause
ingrown toe-nails! So, just because the manual says to do it,
doesn't mean that it's the logical thing to do. An experienced
cameraman would produce better looking footage to begin with and
certainly wouldn't risk such important images to bucket
processing! He'd know better.

Of course, the cameraman is Santilli's weakest area. The
cameraman could never be allowed to be interviewed in person, as
Bob Shell found out during his research. All information must
come through Santilli.

How convenient.

As far as Santilli being sure he'd never be prosecuted; for
what? The unseen cameraman is his ultimate "out". Santilli can
always claim that he was "duped", just as he has regarding the
tent footage. Should the networks want to sue, they would have
to PROVE that Santilli knew the film was a hoax; something they
can't and he'll never admit. Besides, if the heat was on, he
could always claim that any sensible person could tell it was a
hoax and that the networks simply didn't care, which they
probably wouldn't. Ratings are ratings. Don't forget, "Three's
Company" was one of the highest rated shows on television for
years even though it was a constant embarrassment for the
network that carried it.

Ka-ching, ka-ching.

Now, a lawyer might want to weigh in on this, but an interesting
way to test Santilli's resolve is for others to start copying
and selling tapes of his AA footage, sans the opening titles or
credits or narrative sections that he or the networks produced.
After all, if the AA footage was produced by the military, then
it was paid for with US tax dollars and now belongs to the
general public, just like early NASA photos. For Santilli to
protect his copyright, (and his profits) he'd have to prove that
he produced the AA footage from scratch!

Ironic, isn't it? All the underpaid talent that worked on the
film probably wouldn't lift a finger to help him.

Finally, Gildas asked:

>So what happened?? I am surprised that the very possible
>hypothesis of a "secret services" operation has been paid so
>little attention, apparently (or am I wrong here?). And yet,
>there are many precedents. If we go back in time, we know that,
>for instance, AFOSI issued doctored documents and informations
>to ufological circles, some of them through William Moore, who
>confessed it. So, why not a film?

<snip>

>I would be interested to read convincing arguments against this
>hypothesis.

I think I just presented one! :)

In closing, Gildas mentioned:

>Incidentally, I may have some information to release soon on the
>'KGB Secrets' TV production. Russian ufologist Boris Shurinov,
>to whom I sent the video, has already presented a rather
>devastating analysis of it at a recent conference in Italy
>(Cagliari, in Sardinia, 12 december 1998). He is to send me soon
>a summary of it (he was completing his inquiry)  with his
>authorization to circulate it. Just to give an example,  he
>claims that the uniforms of the soldiers are not correct : they
>wear an officer's belt!

The KGB ufo film? A fake?

Not the 16mm color negative film of a downed saucer that was
produced almost a decade before there was 16mm color negative
film on the market? Not the same 16mm color negative film that,
inexplicably, is kept in 35mm film canisters? (those tricky
Soviets)

A fake? Get out of here and stop kidding around, Gildas...<g>

Take care,

Roger Evans





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 8

                         Re: 'Pumpkin Seed' Aircraft

From: Seth Assar <RADEOAKTV@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 18:12:03 EST
Fwd Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 01:37:53 -0500
Subject: Re: 'Pumpkin Seed' Aircraft


The 'Pumpkin Seed' aircraft is an aircraft that used to have
been spotted at Area 51 a few years back. The Aurora spyplane
might have had this shape. Don't go asking people in Rachel
about it. There gonna probably say stuff like, "Uh, yup, I saw
that airplane last night."

By the way, my new book, 'Dreamland: The History of Area 51' is
out. It is a 50 page book on the complete history of the Groom
Lake base. It rather steers away from things like Bob Lazar and
the UFO and relies on real facts like the A-12 program and
Tactic Blue.

I am taking orders myself, you won't find it on the internet.
Contact me at Radeoaktv@aol.com for details or to ask me
questions that might interest you about the Groom Lake base.





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 8

                       Re: 25 Rules of Disinformation

From: Gary Alevy <galevy@pipeline.com>
Date: Thu, 07 Jan 1999 18:32:44 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 17:02:01 -0500
Subject: Re: 25 Rules of Disinformation


>Date: Wed, 06 Jan 1999 23:39:20 -0500
>From: Gary Alevy <galevy@pipeline.com>
>To: UFO UpDate <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: 25 Rules of Disinformation

><snip>

>>Source: http://www.trufax.org/research2/disinforules.html

>>Twenty-Five Rules of Disinformation - The Politicians Credo

>>Courtesy of American Patriot Friends Network and Walt
>>July 15, 1998


<snip>

>-- What are the real issues in the dispute which broke out last
>month over Dr. Hynek? This real issues revolve around the fact
>that there is AMPLE evidence, evidence tantamount to proof, FOR
>ME, that Dr. Hynek was working both sides of the street in his
>later career as Godfather of ufology. What is proof? It is the
>evidence that convinces YOU. That is, there is no absolute
>proof available in this area, short of the individual at issue
>owning up in public, as did Dr. Thornton Page (who was also a
>member of the Robertson Panel with Hynek,the web link to this
>information was included in one of my postings) a few months ago
>and just before his passing. All we are going to have is
>evidence.

I would like to correct an error here regarding Dr. Hynek's
relationship to the Robertson Panel.  Hynek was not a member of
the panel, he just a presenter to the panel.  Dr. Thorton Page
was a member of the Robertson Panel.






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 8

                       Alternative 3/Request for Films

From: Tim Brigham <devilsad@ksinc.net>
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 17:40:34 -0600
Fwd Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 17:03:46 -0500
Subject: Alternative 3/Request for Films


Hellos,

Just wondering if anyone knows of a source for the
mock/shock/doc-umentary "Alternative 3."  I'm aware of the book
on the subject that's out there (I believe it's the illuminet
press book), but I'm looking for an actual video copy of the
program itself.  Any help is greatly appreciated.

While I'm on the subject, I have a smallish collection of UFO
related "documentaries" which are no longer available, and I'm
always looking for new ones.  My main interest in regards to
videos includes those which are related to UMMO, Heaven's Gate,
Unarius, etc etc. Propaghanda (a surely subjective term, but I
think everyone on the list knows what sorts of films I'm
speaking of) and indoctrination vids of all sorts are especially
sought after.  Please email me if you share my luv for unusual
propaganda (for whatever reason, be it fun or psychosocial
studies) and might be interested in trading some tapes or know
of a good source from which to purchase them.

Also, my apologies for not catching up with most of the threads
as of late.  it's been a hectic new year so far and it will
probably just get worse.

Best,
Tim Brigham



)+(
(Currently looking for new hosts, but the below addys will do for
now.)
www.ksinc.net/~devilsad/ufo.htm The Devil's Advocate
www.ksinc.net/~devilsad/ring.htm Operation MindPhuck
"Better to go hungry than to feast on lies."
)+(





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 8

                             Re: Fox TV Special

From: Michael Christol <mchristo@mindspring.com>
Date: Thu, 07 Jan 1999 18:17:09 -0600
Fwd Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 17:06:03 -0500
Subject: Re: Fox TV Special


>Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 08:15:52 -0500 (EST)
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Bob Shell <bob@bobshell.com>
>Subject: Re: Fox TV Special

>I have to admit a great deal of puzzlement over Meier. On the
>face of it, he seems an obvious hoaxer. And some of his photos
>do, indeed, seem to be rather crude fakes.

If you have followed this cae from the beginnings of Wendelle's
investigations, as he reported it to us in his Preliminary
Investigation and the Contact Videos, as well as the Trilogy
Videos, then you know the amount of energy that has gone into
verification of this case, including bringing in the Japanese
TV crew to help film the area and the interviews with Meier
and the witnesses available at the time.

The key which most people turn is the photo key...but if you
look at the over all case, the photos, some of which are
excellent, are really the weakest link in the case... The
landing swirls, evenly spaced are the same in each area, and I
know that based on Dough and Dave, instruction, this could very
easily be hoaxed as well.

But the metal samples, which Marcel Vogel verified could only
have been created in a vaccuum, such as space, were a key which
was Lost!  Marcel did not do the work on these samples by
himself, but had several assistants which worked with him.  I
know one of them very well, and he has verified that Vogel lost
the last sample in 1979, and could not have given Kal Korff one
in 1980... He didn't have it then...regardless of what Korff
claims. I am in the process of contacting another of those
assistants and see what I can learn from him...

Next there is the sounds which were recorded and witnessed by
Poppi as well as others.

This as it is shown in one of the videos, was analyzed by the
same group which worked with Stevie Wonder, the Musician/
Singer....whom I'm sure you know of.

They verified that the sounds resonated at the same frequency
when they harmonized, as the earth...here is another key...
If a person takes the time and makes the effort to investigate
this case, even without talking to Meier or anyone at the FIGU,
they can discover many amazing things.  There are many people
which you can talk to if you desire to do so, Bob....

Just because someone says the "sky is falling," does not mean
it is so....<G>

>However, there are other photos from him which are much more
>difficult to explain, and I am currently looking as some of them
>which Wendelle Stevens has kindly loaned me. Those showing
>multiple UFOs passing behind tree branches are the ones most
>difficult to consider as hoaxes.

Yes, and as I have said, this is the weak link in the case, the
questionable key...

>It is a shame that all of the available material is so far
>removed from first generation, since this makes definitive
>analysis practically impossible.

>Bob Shell

Yes, you are correct.  Buy had not Wendelle and the Elders, and
Tom Welch, not been there when they were, what they retrieved,
would have been lost...I am greatful that they were there....

Will we ever determine the factualness of this case?  I can't
say. If the Pleiadens do indeed exist, they could clear this up
very quickly...but apparently, they do not wish to do so, if in
fact they are a reality...

REgards, Mike





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 8

               Re: NASA's Stephens Admits to CAUS That He is a

From: Sharon Kardol <sharon@hotmix.com.au>
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 10:34:53 +0800
Fwd Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 17:16:20 -0500
Subject: Re: NASA's Stephens Admits to CAUS That He is a


>From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
>Date: Thu, 07 Jan 1999 00:48:17 +0000
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: NASA's Stephens Admits to CAUS That He is a

>>From: Peter Gersten <UFOLAWYER1@aol.com>
>>Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 01:46:34 EST
>>Fwd Date: Wed, 06 Jan 1999 20:36:18 -0500
>>Subject: Re: NASA's Stephens Admits to CAUS That He is a Fraud

>>>From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
>>>Date: Tue, 05 Jan 1999 10:32:16 +0000
>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>>Subject: NASA's Stephens Admits to CAUS That He is a Fraud

>Okay, kids...

>Get out the TV trays and fix yourself a snack cause this is
>gonna take a while to sort out.


>snip

>Ultimately, I had stated:

>>>With all due respect, Mr. Gersten, you need to speak for
>>>yourself. The picture you paint is one of justification for
>>>your own gullibility and you can leave me out of it.

>Peter responded with this nonsense:

>>You have been left out of it...by your own choice. Unless of
>>CAUS you have some UFO accomplishments that I am not aware of.
>>So why are you getting involved now? You can be sure that my
>>'we' had nothing to do with someone as intelligent and wise as
>>you.

>Well, for starters, the term "WE" means just what it states;
>you, me, everybody concerned. But since you seem intent on
>making a point of this, I'll play your game. Earlier you had
>stated:

>>>We are so eager, CAUS included, to find the truth, etc, etc, etc.

Perhaps what Mr Gersten meant by "We" was infact as you stated
"everyone concerned", that is everyone who is concerned with
what Mr Gersten has to say, and everyone who infactfeel they
have been fooled by Mr Stephens' lies.  If you don't put
yourself into this category (and there are people out there who
do) then perhaps you should merely disregard Mr Gersten's
statement as irrelevant to you, and delete as necessary.

This is only my opinion, so you can delete as necessary  :)

Friend or Foe (depending who you ask)
Sharon K





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 8

               Re: Military Ability to Detect & Identify UFOs

From: Sharon Kardol <sharon@hotmix.com.au>
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 10:51:35 +0800
Fwd Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 17:21:00 -0500
Subject: Re: Military Ability to Detect & Identify UFOs


>Date: Wed, 06 Jan 1999 05:05:19 -0800
>From: Josh Goldstein <clearlt@pacbell.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: Military Ability to Detect & Identify UFOs


<snip>

>As for Stephens' shuttle UFO comments. He failed to mention that
>STS-48 was over Australia when it appeared a beam shot up from
>the earth. The darkest conjecture is that the beam was shot up
>from the Pine Gap facility (the Area 51 of Oz) as part of our
>ongoing war with aliens. The UFO or ice chunk darted away just
>in time; a great evasive action. Whatever it was, it sure looked
>great on video.

>Josh Goldstein


Was that STS-48?  Saw it on a video myself a while, but never
heard any mention of it.  What ever it was that darted away from
the beam seemed to move very fast. Interesting. Do you know of
any research into that incident?

Cheers,





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 8

                Re: Robert A.M. Stephens Exposed as a Fraud?

From: Sharon Kardol <sharon@hotmix.com.au>
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 11:08:53 +0800
Fwd Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 17:23:34 -0500
Subject: Re: Robert A.M. Stephens Exposed as a Fraud?


>From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
>Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 12:42:56 EST
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Re: Robert A.M. Stephens Exposed as a Fraud?

>>Date: Mon, 04 Jan 1999 23:49:34 -0500
>>To: "UFO UpDates Subscribers":;
>>From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>Subject: UFO UpDate: Robert A.M. Stephens Exposed as a Fraud?

>>Source: http://www.borderlands.com/robertfraud.htm

>Hello List, et. al -

>This revelation about Stephens bothered me a great deal, but not
>for the reasons you would think.


<snip>  (revelation Stephens was a fake Seal)

>These relevations make me embarrassed to suggest that I served
>in Vietnam as a helicopter pilot. Not that I regret that
>service, but because so many people in today's world are
>suggesting that they served in Vietnam. It calls all of us into
>question. People begin to wonder, is he just another "wannabe"
>who is inventing his Vietnam service to impress.

>I believe it was in San Antonio in which the director of a
>Vietnam War museum was forced to resign because he claimed to
>have been a Vietnam veteran, but was exposed as a fraud. His
>deputy director was also forced to resign when it was learned
>he, too, was a fraud.

>Can I prove that I served in Vietnam? Certainly. But should I
>have to. And this relates to the entire UFO community. How many
>times have people come forward claiming training, education,
>government connects, only to be exposed as frauds. I can think
>of a dozen or more, some of whom are still respected by people
>on this list. Don Schmitt, for example, still lectures about
>UFOs and Roswell, but why should we listen to a thing he has to
>say?

>There must come a point where we say that it is enough. If you
>lied about your education, your employment, your secret drug
>investigation experience, we are not going to believe anything
>else you say UNTIL we can verify it.

>Sorry for the rant, but this is becoming ridiculous. We still
>argue about the authenticity of the Santilli film when we have
>seen the lies he told about the film canister markings and that
>the tent footage is a fraud. He has not produced the cameraman,
>or a statement from his that isn't riddled with errors and
>mistakes. Maybe we haven't proved the autopsy a fraud, but we
>don't have to. Santilli has to prove it authentic and not only
>hasn't he, he has done everything he can to make sure that no
>one else can do it.

>So, before we accept anything, let's make sure the facts are there.


Mr Randle,

It is so sad to hear this reality.  Unfortunately for me I tend
to believe what people tell me at face value, because, well, why
would they want to lie to me?

Until this episode with Mr Stephens I hadn't really experienced
blatant disception at this level, and now that I have I must say
I am a little more wary than before, but, like you I don't
understand why someone would want to be like that?

Lets hope the new millenium brings a renewed sense of community
spirit.

Cheers,
Sharon K





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 8

                         Re: Loren Gross' Histories

From: Bruce Maccabe <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 22:49:26 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 17:25:18 -0500
Subject: Re: Loren Gross' Histories


>Date: Wed, 06 Jan 1999 14:17:33 -0800
>From: Jan Aldrich <jan@cyberzone.net>
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Loren Gross' Histories


>Greeting List,

>Loren Gross' works on UFOs are not generally available. I echo
>Bob Girard's comments,  "This is the single most important work
>every done on UFOs.  This series of books is ten times better
>than the next nearest work."

>Re-entitled 'The Fifth Horseman of the Apocalypse' after Dr.
>Lincoln LaPaz's enigmatically statement about UFOs, the series
>of approximately 100-page-booklets is now up  to 44 volumes with
>the last book dealing with the middle of 1958.


I, too, would like to complement Loren Gross on his work. Having
his set of books is like having the Project Blue Book Microfilm
...and a lot more.    This is a great asset for anyone who wants
to do in-depth historical analysis without going to the National
Archive.





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 8

                         Re: 'Pumpkin Seed' Aircraft

From: Tom Benson <sparkle@earthlink.net>
Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 10:47:22 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 17:28:43 -0500
Subject: Re: 'Pumpkin Seed' Aircraft


>From: Larry Clark <lclark@ibm.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: 'Pumpkin Seed' Aircraft
>Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 19:32:03 -0000

>Question: Has anyone heard of any experimental government
>aircraft as referred to as 'pumpkin seeds'?


Re: Pumpkin Seeds, John McPhee's book published in 1973 and
earlier serialized in New Yorker magazine was entitled, 'The
Deltoid Pumpkin Seed'. The book covers the development of a
experimental deltoid shaped craft developed and flown by the
Aereon Corporation which is still based in Princeton, New
Jersey. Aereon has done government contract work.

Aereon patents indicate that their airframes and platforms are
similar in shape as to what was reported as UFOs in the Hudson
Valley area of New York state, Belgium, etc. over the years.

Hope this helps.






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 9

                       Re: FOX Hoax Special - Reaction

From: Steven W. Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 06:39:19 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 00:27:02 -0500
Subject: Re: FOX Hoax Special - Reaction


>From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
>Date: Thu, 07 Jan 1999 17:34:50 +0000
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: FOX Hoax Special - Reaction

>Hi Gildas,

>I think there is a general misconception people have about the
>overall "high expense" and "risk" of producing the AA footage.
>Nothing visible on screen is so unique that it couldn't be found
>in garage sales and resale shops. I know of at least four
>surplus places in Houston, alone, that would have all the old
>surgical hardware such as table, instruments, gowns etc. If I
>had to put a dollar figure on it all, I doubt it would top
>$5,000 and that would be generous. The alien, of course, would
>have to be manufactured. However, despite much admiration some
>people seem to have for the "realistic" look of the alien, I
>personally find it to be quite stiff and crude. I know half a
>dozen guys in the low budget film industry that could do a
>better job for under $10,000 and would take the money and keep
>their mouths shut because they would just be happy to have the
>work!

Roger-

If your friends could produce a better AA "film" for $10,000,
they should have spoken up when this was being discussed on the
"net".  Many of the comments you've made are at the heart of
long and involved discussions between a variety of "experts",
and I would suggest that the bottom line is that this "film" is
a far more complicated affair than it appears at first glance.

I have also spoken with several production people familiar with
special effects, and they all laugh at the AA "film" and say
that they could do better.  They're opinion was that the "film"
was an obvious fake.  On the other hand, I've communicated with
several in the medical profession who are convinced they were
watching a real medical proceedure, and not a re-creation.  So,
what are we left with?   It would seem we have opinions from
experts in their fields who view the same "film" from their
respective positions.

I have seen three "professional" re-creations of the AA "film",
and I believe that at least one of them cost far more than the
$10,000 figure you mention.  These were produced to show how
'easy' it was to fake, and they all quickly failed some of the
tests that the Santilli "film" had already passed.

This doesn't mean that I believe the AA "film" is real, and
certainly doesn't eliminate the fact that it might have been
hoaxed by a group of people who donated their time and
materials, so the cost could have been next to nothing.  But to
charactorize it as easy to create, for just a few thousand
dollars, misses the point of many "expert" statements that have
gone before.

It is Ray Santilli's responsibility to prove his film has worth,
and not the role of UFOlogists to prove it a fake.  Of the
gigabytes of material that has been posted regarding the AA
"film" during the past 4 years, I would suspect that only about
10% of it was an actual scientific debate. Most of it (IMO) was
wasted bandwidth as many submitted opinion and theory as
evidence and then supported their contention endlessly in a
never ending "debate".  What a waste of investigative energy.

As far as the Kiviat production is concerned, I think there is
far better evidence to indicate that the Santilli "film" is a
hoax than was presented on the show.  Those who've watched this
story unfold on the "net" were aware of the actor who had come
forward early last year, so the report wasn't actually a
revelation.  However, Kal is correct in that this information
has now been made available to a wider audience.






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 9

                         Re: 'Pumpkin Seed' Aircraft

From: Bob Geiger <bgeiger@cybernex.net>
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 07:03:53 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 00:35:20 -0500
Subject: Re: 'Pumpkin Seed' Aircraft


>From: Larry Clark <lclark@ibm.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: 'Pumpkin Seed' Aircraft
>Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 17:10:07 -0000

>>Date: Thu, 07 Jan 1999 08:52:04 -0800
>>From: Jan Aldrich <jan@cyberzone.net>
>>To: updates@globalserve.net
>>Subject: Re: 'Pumpkin Seed' Aircraft

>>>From: Larry Clark <lclark@ibm.net>
>>>Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 19:32:03 -0000
>>>Fwd Date: Wed, 06 Jan 1999 23:39:11 -0500
>>>Subject: 'Pumpkin Seed' Aircraft

>>>Question: Has anyone heard of any experimental government
>>>aircraft as referred to as 'pumpkin seeds'?

>>That is Alfred Loedding's name for his low-aspect ratio aircraft
>>which he was testing.

>>I think Wendy Connors and Michael Hall will surely mention it in
>>their new book, 'Alfred Loedding and the Great UFO Wave of
>>1947'.

>Wendy mentioned Loedding. Oddly, it was not a historical
>question. I was chasing a local rumor that a airman on leave was
>saying the U.S. is currently testing  'secret' craft throughout
>the county and it is referred to as the 'pumpkin seed' .

>BTW, have some clipping from the 50's I be sending in a few
>days.


Larry,

The Pumpkin Seed moniker was also tagged to an aircraft design
described in John McPhee's book, "The Deltoid Pumpkin Seed"
witten sometime in the early 70's. Amazon.com has a hardcover
and paperback in stock, I believe.

---------------------------------9=878----------------------------------
                              Bob Geiger
                           bgeiger@cybernex.net
                    http://www2.cybernex.net/~bgeiger/






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 9

                    Re: Fifth Horseman of the Apocalypse

From: Marie Ivey <jmi@aretha.jax.org>
Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 08:16:30 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 00:37:57 -0500
Subject: Re: Fifth Horseman of the Apocalypse


>Date: Thu, 07 Jan 1999 10:38:37 -0800
>From: Jan Aldrich <jan@cyberzone.net>
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Fifth Horseman of the Apocalypse

>A suggestion conerning Loren Gross' books:  Place the material
>on CD-rom.  Several people have asked about this possibility.

>Is there any interest in such a project?

>Thanks.
>--
>Jan Aldrich

Good suggestion. I would be interested in a CD-Rom for Loren
Gross' books.  I rely on you experts, on this List, for the most
reliable resources on the subject of UFOs and related subjects.

Thanks, Marie





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 9

                    Re: Fifth Horseman of the Apocalypse

From: Marie Ivey <jmi@aretha.jax.org>
Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 08:16:30 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 00:53:46 -0500
Subject: Re: Fifth Horseman of the Apocalypse


>Date: Thu, 07 Jan 1999 10:38:37 -0800
>From: Jan Aldrich <jan@cyberzone.net>
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Fifth Horseman of the Apocalypse

>A suggestion conerning Loren Gross' books:  Place the material
>on CD-rom.  Several people have asked about this possibility.

>Is there any interest in such a project?

>Thanks.
>--
>Jan Aldrich

Good suggestion. I would be interested in a CD-Rom for Loren
Gross' books.  I rely on you experts, on this List, for the most
reliable resources on the subject of UFOs and related subjects.

Thanks, Marie





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 9

                      Re: A 'New' New Zealand UFO Book

From: Diane Harrison <tkbnetw@fan.net.au>
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 00:07:54 +1000
Fwd Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 00:43:33 -0500
Subject: Re: A 'New' New Zealand UFO Book


The Keith Basterfield Network Australasia - h
ttp://www.fan.net.au/~tkbnetwtkbnetw@fan.net.au

*************************************************************
UFO Australian  Research Network Hot Line Number
                       1800 77 22 88 Free Call
************************************************************
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
A  'New' New Zealand UFO Book "and very well put together"
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The NZ Files UFOs In New Zealand

By Peter Hassell
First published in 1998 by David Bateman Ltd
30 Tarndale Grove, Albany, Auckland, New Zealand

Acknowledgments

No writer can take full credit for his or her book. There was
never a truer clich'e it is only through the willing effort of
many that any book is ever completed. So it is that I wish to
acknowledge those who have been involved in mine.

First and foremost the all the UFO wittinesses and researchers
without the witnesses who have had the courage to come forward
there would be no UFO phenomena to investigate. Without all the
researchers there would be no permanent record of the sightings.

Harold Fulton, Henk and Brenda Hinfelaar, Fred and Phyliss
Dickeson, Bryan Dickeson, Harvey Cooke, Bruce Cathie, Rocky
Wood, Tony Brunt, Robin Collys, Murray Stott, Colin Lambert, Vic
Harris, Phil Austin, Feike de Bock, Murray Bott,Colin Amery,
Mark Cashman, Raymond Fowler, William Corliss and many others
have spent decades of voluntary work, investigating and
Recording the UFO mystery.

In particular, Murray Bott has been completely selfless in
providing me with information and rare photos which he has
preserved. This book would have been impossible to write without
his invaluable cooperation.

Comment: Diane

I could write more but I think this book is well worth adding to
your UFO book collection it is well presented heaps of NZ
information, I love the cover, designed by Shelly Watson its
simple but eye catching.

If you would like a copy Peter Hassall NZ Files you can contact
him at:

c/o Unusual Data Investigation Service (UDIS)
P,O Box 7432, Marion Street Wellington 1.
Email hassall@xtra.co.nz

or Murray Bott at Email murrayb@kiwi.gen.nz

Regards Diane Harrison





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 9

                       Re: FOX Hoax Special - Reaction

From: Gildas Bourdais <GBourdais@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 11:07:21 EST
Fwd Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 00:47:19 -0500
Subject: Re: FOX Hoax Special - Reaction


>From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
>Date: Thu, 07 Jan 1999 17:34:50 +0000
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: FOX Hoax Special - Reaction


>In all, I doubt that Santilli spent more than $20,000 dollars.
>Peanuts at double that price, especially if he can sell the
>video to network television or offer it to the sell-through
>market on home video. I'm sure he's spent as much producing a
>single music video. I know I have, even for an unknown group
>with little or no hope of making it commercially as a result of
>the video.

Interesting arguments, but I find them hardly credible. I keep
thinking that it is a sophisticated fabrication, probably close
to the real thing, but with deliberate mistakes that a first
degree hoaxer would not have done.

I still think that the film was very well made, and must have
cost a lot of time, carefull planning, money, and quite a few
experts around. The body is very impressive, with the blood on
the cuts, etc.

The "mistakes" are also too obvious not to have been introduced
on purpose. For instance, the clumsy camera movements when it
comes to close-ups. I did myself some shooting (more than a
hundred 100 feet reels) with hand held 16 mm camera, and I can
tell you that the first thing to learn is to hold firmly the
camera. If Santilli had hired a cameraman, anyone with some
training would have fared better. Which means that it was
purposely lousy. I see two possible reasons for that. First, to
prevent too close examination of body parts and/or, more subtly,
to lower the credibility of the film, and it worked.

The introduction of six fingers is another one. No Roswell
witness remembers that! The most lamentable Roswell hoaxer would
have known that. One friend argued that, on the contrary, it
makes the hoax more credible, because it surprises everybody,
but I find the argument much too sophisticated for a simple
money making hoax.

>As far as risk is concerned; there really isn't any. Since no
>faces are shown, all involved would be sorely lacking in proof
>if they tried to "squeal" on Santilli. In fact, should any of
>the actors cause him to lose money by making claims that they
>can't prove, Santilli could sue THEM and would probably win,
>too.

Yes, the fact that all faces are hidden is, of course, very
suspect. But it is just as necessary for the team protection,
wether it is a simple hoax or a more complex operation.

I maintain that it would have been very risky as a simple hoax.
People willing to participate in such an operation are not of a
very scrupulous kind, and therefore present a risk, even years
later. There are many ways to prove a hoax when you have
participated in it, especially  if you have been careful to keep
some proofs of it. There is also the blackmailing risk. Any
participant with such a proof could sink him.

One more detail. I was at the first screening in London on May
5, 1995, with some French friends. One of them, Jean Gresl=E9,
talked with Santilli and he discovered that he was very ignorant
of the Roswell case. One more indication that Santilli, most





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 9

                       Re: FOX Hoax Special - Reaction

From: Bob Shell <bob@bobshell.com>
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 12:59:58 -0500 (EST)
Fwd Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 00:52:04 -0500
Subject: Re: FOX Hoax Special - Reaction


>From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
>Date: Thu, 07 Jan 1999 17:34:50 +0000
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: FOX Hoax Special - Reaction

>Finding the old film stock is not impossible. I, personally,
>have stumbled onto old rolls of B&W film dating back to 1958. I
>shot them and they processed up just fine, though a little
>grainy. Therefore, film and processing is practically free, as
>is the old Bell and Howell it was probably shot with. I wouldn't
>be surprised if the camera and film were found together in
>someone's attic! From the look of it, I doubt very seriously
>that a trained camera man shot one single frame, so you know his
>cost was doodly-squat.

Finding old film stock from 1947, and an ultra fast film at
that, is a different matter, Roger.  If you did find some, it
would be hopelessly fogged by now by background radiation, no
matter how it was stored.

Processing would also be problematic, since you can't run this
old film through today's chemicals.  The emulsion would just
come right off.

>The actor's faces were conveniently covered, so their "fees"
>would be minimal, probably no more than $200 per person, if even
>that. Santilli could easily afford to "sweeten" the deal by
>doubling or tripling their fees to keep them quiet, though it
>really wouldn't be necessary.

Huh????  Now why wouldn't it be necessary to pay them "hush
money"?  Let's say they had been paid, oh $ 5,000 each for the
sake of argument.  You don't think Bob Kiviat could scrape up a
LOT more than that to offer them if they came forward?

Nope, your argument here just doesn't make sense.

>Gilda continued by offering this:

His name is Gildas, Roger.  He is a man.  I can attest to this
since I met him in Paris when we both were featured on the TF-1
network's TV program on the film!!!!! <G>

>I've posted earlier why I find the notion of some guy processing
>several hundred feet of film in a bucket and trying to find a
>place to hang-dry it really stupid. I know Bob Shell disagrees,
>and he has his reasons. But it makes no sense to me at all,
>despite the army manuals of the day claiming that it could be
>done. A friend of mine has an old army manual about personal
>hygiene that tells recruits to clip the corners of their
>toe-nails close to the skin "for greater comfort", I believe.
>None of them did, of course, because it would always cause
>ingrown toe-nails! So, just because the manual says to do it,
>doesn't mean that it's the logical thing to do. An experienced
>cameraman would produce better looking footage to begin with and
>certainly wouldn't risk such important images to bucket
>processing! He'd know better.

Roger, I never said that the film was processed in a bucket,
just that it could have been if absolutely necessary.  The old
process used at the time was done at much lower temperatures
than used today, and so could easily be done in crude settings.

I think the film was processed in a hand-crank processing tank,
as were often used by the military in those days.  This would
account for the variations in density in the film which you
would not get with automated machine processing.

>Now, a lawyer might want to weigh in on this, but an interesting
>way to test Santilli's resolve is for others to start copying
>and selling tapes of his AA footage, sans the opening titles or
>credits or narrative sections that he or the networks produced.
>After all, if the AA footage was produced by the military, then
>it was paid for with US tax dollars and now belongs to the
>general public, just like early NASA photos. For Santilli to
>protect his copyright, (and his profits) he'd have to prove that
>he produced the AA footage from scratch!


WRONG!!!!!!  This has been done.  Ask Chuck Harder about it.






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 9

              Alfred Loedding and the Great Flying Saucer Wave

From: Jan Aldrich <jan@cyberzone.net>
Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 15:09:29 -0800
Fwd Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 00:59:19 -0500
Subject: Alfred Loedding and the Great Flying Saucer Wave


Just received a copy. Material about a nearly unknown important
Air Force personality who was closely involved with UFOs for the
beginning in 1947.

--

Jan Aldrich
Project 1947
http://www.iufog.org/project1947/
P. O. Box 391, Canterbury, CT 06331, USA
Telephone: (860) 546-9135

------

Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 22:03:55 -0700
From: Wendy Connors <ProjectSign@EMAIL.MSN.COM>
Subject: Alfred Loedding and the Great Flying Saucer Wave of 1947
To: PROJECT-1947@LISTSERV.AOL.COM

Greetings to the Lists:

Michael David Hall and I wish to inform those members who are
interested that our new book entitled: 'Alfred Loedding and the
Great Flying Saucer Wave of 1947' is now available.

To those members who placed your orders early from Mike and
myself, your copies were mailed out today (Mike is still snowed
in, but the orders I had are on the way).

If you ordered from Arcturus Books you should receive them very
shortly as they are winging their way to Bob as this message is
being typed and he will have them to you lickity-split (or by
the time those of you who are still snowbound can finally get to
the store cause your probably running out of T.P. right about
now). <G>

It's been hard on you in the storm belt and Mike and I apologize
for the delay in getting the copies to you.

The book is available for $21.95 from:

Arcturus Books Inc.
1443 SE Port St. Lucie Blvd.
Port St. Lucie, FL 34952

and from the authors at:

Wendy Connors
P.O. Box 8552
Albuquerque, New Mexico 87198

Thank you for your indulgence with this really crass commercial
announcement.






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 9

                      The Credibility of Edgar Fouche'

From: Rebecca Fouche' <FMa1@email.msn.com>
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 16:59:39 -0600
Fwd Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 01:17:09 -0500
Subject: The Credibility of Edgar Fouche'


>From: Tim Matthews <matthews@zetnet.co.uk>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Bell Cuts-Off R.A.M. Stephens
>Date: Fri, 1 Jan 1999 08:38:31 -0000

After several days of contemplation, I have decided to address
the following statement made by Tim Matthews:


>As far as I and many colleagues are concerned Stephens is
>another Ed Fouche - big on talk and totally lacking in remotely
>credible evidence.


I am in the unique position of knowing the character of Edgar
Fouche', author of Alien Rapture-The Chosen, better than Mr.
Matthews or anyone else, for that matter, as I am his wife.
While that position intrinsically generates a measure of
prejudice, it does not render me blind nor stupid--nor unable to
access character and motivation.

Ed publicly stated on many occasions that he chose to write
Alien Rapture as fiction because he would not produce the
sources which passed the information on to him.  Any
conscionable reporter would endorse that this stance is oftimes
a necessity.  Since the publication of the book, respected
members of the UFO community have verified the content of the
work--including the existence of the TR3B flying triangle--and
have called to confirm that it reflected information their own
research had uncovered.

That individuals who are interested in this kaleidoscopic field
will disagree is inevitable--that they seem compelled to slander
others in the process never ceases to amaze me.  Tim Matthews
has chosen to publicly malign Ed on more than one occasion,
which I find curious, as he has never met nor even spoken to
him.  Ed has found the situation mildly humorous, as he is
confident in his sources and of the accuracy of content of the
information he has released.

Ed does not purport to be an expert and is relatively new to the
field of UFOlogy.  He was simply the recipient of a body of
information which he felt to be an important piece of the ET
puzzle, and was entrusted by the providers of that information
with task of making the information public. As to his
credentials, they have withstood the examination of directors
and producers at the BBC, his illustrious co-author Brad
Steiger, Diana Botsford, Publisher of the MSN UFO Community/host
for an upcoming weekly talk show on Talkspot Network, and many
others in the field.

It not my style to retaliate; I rarely respond to the inevitable
small-minded denigrations inherent to public exposure.  However,
to equivocate Edgar Fouche' to a self-proclaimed hoaxer is
ludicrous.  He is a man of character and a seeker of truth.
Would that all soldiers of ufology would manifest those traits
as they wade into the fray.

Rebecca Fouche'
President, Fouche' Media Associates, Inc.
Section Leader, Politics of UFOs, MSN UFO Community
http://fouchemedia.com
------

<If in the pursuit of his dreams a man sells his soul, the quest
becomes his master, and he, a slave.> <A man is defined by what
he defends.>





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 9

                             Re: Fox TV Special

From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 18:49:30 +0000
Fwd Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 13:56:13 -0500
Subject: Re: Fox TV Special


>From: Michael Christol <mchristo@mindspring.com>
>Date: Thu, 07 Jan 1999 18:17:09 -0600
>Fwd Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 17:06:03 -0500
>Subject: Re: Fox TV Special

Previously, Michael offered this regarding Billy Miere:

>Next there is the sounds which were recorded and witnessed by
>Poppi as well as others.

>This as it is shown in one of the videos, was analyzed by the
>same group which worked with Stevie Wonder, the Musician/
>Singer....whom I'm sure you know of.

>They verified that the sounds resonated at the same frequency
>when they harmonized, as the earth

I do have a musical background, but for the life of me I'm not
quite sure what this means or what its significance is. I'm not
casting doubts on what you are saying; on the contrary, I don't
really even understand it. Can you fill me in? And if not, is
there a more accomplished musician on the list that can?

Thanks,

Roger Evans






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 9

               Re: NASA's Stephens Admits to CAUS That He is a

From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 19:17:06 +0000
Fwd Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 14:06:52 -0500
Subject: Re: NASA's Stephens Admits to CAUS That He is a


>From: Sharon Kardol <sharon@hotmix.com.au>
>Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 10:34:53 +0800
>Fwd Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 17:16:20 -0500
>Subject: Re: NASA's Stephens Admits to CAUS That He is a

>>From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
>>Date: Thu, 07 Jan 1999 00:48:17 +0000
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>Subject: NASA's Stephens Admits to CAUS That He is a

>>>From: Peter Gersten <UFOLAWYER1@aol.com>
>>>Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 01:46:34 EST
>>>Fwd Date: Wed, 06 Jan 1999 20:36:18 -0500
>>>Subject: Re: NASA's Stephens Admits to CAUS That He is a Fraud

Previously, Mr. Gersten declared:

>>>>We are so eager, CAUS included, to find the truth, etc, etc, etc.

Sharon offered the following:

>Perhaps what Mr Gersten meant by "We" was infact as you stated
>"everyone concerned", that is everyone who is concerned with
>what Mr Gersten has to say, and everyone who infactfeel they
>have been fooled by Mr Stephens' lies.  If you don't put
>yourself into this category (and there are people out there who
>do) then perhaps you should merely disregard Mr Gersten's
>statement as irrelevant to you, and delete as necessary.

Hi, Sharon.

You can be assured that most everything that Mr. Gersten says is
irrelevant to me except when he tries to include me in the
exorcism of his own guilty conscience.

He could have written,"Many of us were so eager" or "Some of us
were so eager" or "There are those of us that were so eager" or
"This list was so eager", etc. The English language is a very
specific tool and, as an experienced lawyer, I'm sure Mr.
Gersten knows EXACTLY what he is saying as any given moment.

It's regretable that his research of Stephens wasn't half as
vigorous as the pitiful defense of Gersten's own pleadings to
the UFO community.

Personally, I was embarrassed for the man.

Take care,

Roger Evans






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 9

                     Re: Alternative 3/Request for Films

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 14:15:43 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 14:15:43 -0500
Subject: Re: Alternative 3/Request for Films

Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 18:29:56 -0600
To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
From: Michael Christol <mchristo@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Alternative 3/Request for Films


>From: Tim Brigham <devilsad@ksinc.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Alternative 3/Request for Films
>Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 17:40:34 -0600

>Hellos,

>Just wondering if anyone knows of a source for the
>mock/shock/doc-umentary "Alternative 3."  I'm aware of the book
>on the subject that's out there (I believe it's the illuminet
>press book), but I'm looking for an actual video copy of the
>program itself.  Any help is greatly appreciated.

Yes, I happen to have a copy of the video you are asking about.
I also have a loose leaf 8 1/2 by 11 page copy of the book. So
it is very easy to duplicate...

In fact, I will attatch a copy of the video lists as I have
them.  The second one is not up to date.

I have a video library of over 300 UFO and Paranormal related
subjects.

I do not sell tapes.  I trade for other tapes, when possible, or
will make a tape for others if they don't have videos, so long
as they provide me with the tape, and the postage and mailer
necessary to do so...

I may be poor, but I am honest. <g>  ;-)

>While I'm on the subject, I have a smallish collection of UFO
>related "documentaries" which are no longer available, and I'm
>always looking for new ones.  My main interest in regards to
>videos includes those which are related to UMMO, Heaven's Gate,
>Unarius, etc etc. Propaghanda (a surely subjective term, but I
>think everyone on the list knows what sorts of films I'm
>speaking of) and indoctrination vids of all sorts are especially
>sought after.  Please email me if you share my luv for unusual
>propaganda (for whatever reason, be it fun or psychosocial
>studies) and might be interested in trading some tapes or know
>of a good source from which to purchase them.

Yeah, I have some of the above listed videos also...

Michael Christol

ICQ#: 7508455.
http://wwp.mirabilis.com/7508455
7508455@pager.mirabilis.com.
BBS:  502-683-3026
Fax:  502-686-7394
Home: 502-683-6811





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 9

                       Re: 25 Rules of Disinformation

From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 20:23:07 +0000
Fwd Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 14:28:35 -0500
Subject: Re: 25 Rules of Disinformation


>From: Gary Alevy <galevy@pipeline.com>
>Date: Thu, 07 Jan 1999 18:32:44 -0500
>Fwd Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 17:02:01 -0500
>Subject: Re: 25 Rules of Disinformation

Previously, gary offered this heap:

>>-- What are the real issues in the dispute which broke out last
>>month over Dr. Hynek? This real issues revolve around the fact
>>that there is AMPLE evidence, evidence tantamount to proof, FOR
>>ME, that Dr. Hynek was working both sides of the street in his
>>later career as Godfather of ufology. What is proof? It is the
>>evidence that convinces YOU. That is, there is no absolute
>>proof available in this area, short of the individual at issue
>>owning up in public

<snip>

Gary,

I really don't know where to begin. My head is still swimming
from such a convoluted self justification for your position
regarding Hynek.

"Evidence tantamount to proof" is not proof.

Evidence is evidence and proof is proof. Sometimes they are the
same. Sometimes they are not. It all depends on the validity of
the argument that supports the evidence and vice versa.

For instance, if a gun is found at a murder scene with my
fingerprints on it and the victim was killed by that gun, then
an argument could be made that I killed the victim. However, as
logical as this argument would be, and as damning as the
evidence would seem, it is not PROOF that I fired the gun at the
victim; only that the gun that was used has my finger prints on
it.

In fact, the only proof that exists in this increminating
scenario is that I, at one time, held the gun in my hand. It
doesn't even prove that I fired it, even once.

Therefore the argument, though logical, is not valid even though
the evidence is clear and uncontested. By extension, the
evidence could not be considered proof.

Using your logic, if the jury is convinced by the argument, then
the evidence is therefore proof. Not so (though I might go to
jail anyway). As we have seen by the lastest Stephens saga, some
people were convinced by his arguments, others were not. Does
that mean that the unconvinced are ignoring obvious proof? Of
course not. The acceptance of an argument does not validate
"evidence" and elevate it to "proof". Nor does it give validity
to other arguments that might come up as a result of this
acceptance.

I will agree with you on one statement:

>>That is, there is no absolute
>>proof available in this area, short of the individual at issue
>>owning up in public

Finally, Gary gets it right...

Later,

Roger Evans





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 9

                         Re: 'Pumpkin Seed' Aircraft

From: James Easton <pulsar@compuserve.com>
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 20:20:20 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 14:31:31 -0500
Subject: Re: 'Pumpkin Seed' Aircraft


>From: Larry Clark <lclark@ibm.net>
>Subject: Re: 'Pumpkin Seed' Aircraft
>Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 19:32:03 -0000

Larry asked:

>Question: Has anyone heard of any experimental government 0
>aircraft as referred to as 'pumpkin seeds'?


Larry,

Although there are a few candidates, I would have taken any
reference to a 'pumpkin seed' experimental aircraft as relating
to the hypothetical black aircraft which would use an 'exotic
propulsion system'. As mentioned on the Federation of American
Scientists' web site:

While the depiction of an Aurora aircraft seems consistent with
the confines of present technological imagination, other SR-71
follow-on prognosticators suggest more alien craft. Aviation
Week & Space Technology has proposed a current black aircraft
that is something akin to a 1960s Sci-Fi concept. They depict an
elongated diamond shaped vehicle (one hesitates to call it an
aircraft) similar to a "flattened football." The airframe's
dimensions might be 110 x 69 feet. Due to intense heat, the
vehicle would have a heat-streaked appearance similar to that of
the space shuttle. Contrary to intuition, the aft body would
appear distinctly more pockmarked than the fore sections, as if
the most intense heat was experienced in this region.

This vehicle would have a dual propulsion system. Jet engines
buried in the fuselage would propel the vehicle to supersonic
speeds, when a novel external burning mechanism would take
control as the fundamental propulsion method:

"In the high Mach regime, misted fuel is ejected from the
fuselage midsection -- the 'break point' of the elongated
diamond -- across the aft surface tiles, into the area between
the fuselage and a shock wave attacked to this break. In
essence, the sloping, converging aft fuselage sections form the
inside of a 'nozzle' and the shock boundary constitutes the
outer surface, creating an expanding exhaust effect, much like
that on a conventional rocket. The fuel is ignited by surface
heating -- or other means -- creating combustion that
accelerates the aircraft up to the Mach 6-8 regime."

Eliminating the human life-support requirements at Mach 8, this
flaming, hypersonic pumpkin seed would be unmanned and capable
of on-board self- control. This vehicle would be as destructive
as it is unusual. A payload of 120- odd nuclear weapons would be
dispensed as the flaming stone skipped across enemy skies. [End]


There's further background info at:

http://www.fas.org/irp/mystery/pde.htm



James.





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 9

               Re: NASA's Stephens Admits to CAUS That He is a

From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net>
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 23:47:18 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 14:42:02 -0500
Subject: Re: NASA's Stephens Admits to CAUS That He is a


>From: Sharon Kardol <sharon@hotmix.com.au>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: NASA's Stephens Admits to CAUS That He is a Fraud
>Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 10:34:53 +0800

>Perhaps what Mr Gersten meant by "We" was infact as you stated
>"everyone concerned", that is everyone who is concerned with
>what Mr Gersten has to say, and everyone who infactfeel they
>have been fooled by Mr Stephens' lies.  If you don't put
>yourself into this category (and there are people out there who
>do) then perhaps you should merely disregard Mr Gersten's
>statement as irrelevant to you, and delete as necessary.


Sharon, everybody...
 The issue here is very simple, I think. But it's worth stating
for those who might be new to the wild and wacky field of
ufology.

The UFO era is now more than 50 years old, and during that time
there have been many, many people who've come forth and said
they knew government UFO secrets. I think I'm right in saying
that not one of those stories has been verified. Quite a number
of them have either been proved false -- in the way that
Stephens' was -- or else have dissolved into a puddle of
contradictions, as the person telling the tale keeps adding
details that don't fit what he said the last time he told it.

Becuase of this, nobody with any common sense -- assuming
they've been in the field long enough to know what the history
is -- can take someone like Stephens seriously, without checking
him out first. If you distribute some kind of UFO publication,
in print or by e-mail, you have a responsibility to do some
basic checking before you spread these stories. Peter Gersten
didn't do this. Some of the stuff Stephens talked about -- the
Norad "fence," for instance -- might be hard to verify if you
didn't have government or military contacts. But as Roger and
others have demonstrated, anyone can check to see whether
Stephens really was a Navy SEAL.

Peter Gersten didn't do this, which in my opinion makes him
irresponsible. He eagerly spread the story, thus giving it
credibility. If he'd spent an hour checking, he would have found
out right away that basic details weren't right, and would have
saved us all a lot of nonsense.

Greg Sandow





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 9

                    Re: The Credibility of Edgar Fouche'

From: Tim Matthews <matthews@zetnet.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 23:10:30 -0000
Fwd Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 15:40:35 -0500
Subject: Re: The Credibility of Edgar Fouche'


>From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>To: UFO UpDates Subscribers:;
>Subject: UFO UpDate: The Credibility of Edgar Fouche'
>Date: 09 January 1999 06:17

>From: Rebecca Fouche' <FMa1@email.msn.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: The Credibility of Edgar Fouche'
>Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 16:59:39 -0600

>>From: Tim Matthews <matthews@zetnet.co.uk>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Bell Cuts-Off R.A.M. Stephens
>>Date: Fri, 1 Jan 1999 08:38:31 -0000

>After several days of contemplation, I have decided to address
>the following statement made by Tim Matthews:

>>As far as I and many colleagues are concerned Stephens is
>>another Ed Fouche - big on talk and totally lacking in remotely
>>credible evidence.

>I am in the unique position of knowing the character of Edgar
>Fouche', author of Alien Rapture-The Chosen, better than Mr.
>Matthews or anyone else, for that matter, as I am his wife.
>While that position intrinsically generates a measure of
>prejudice, it does not render me blind nor stupid--nor unable to
>access character and motivation.

>Ed publicly stated on many occasions that he chose to write
>Alien Rapture as fiction because he would not produce the
>sources which passed the information on to him.  Any
>conscionable reporter would endorse that this stance is oftimes
>a necessity.

Well at least we're clear on this being fiction.

>Since the publication of the book, respected
>members of the UFO community have verified the content of the
>work--including the existence of the TR3B flying triangle--and
>have called to confirm that it reflected information their own
>research had uncovered.

>That individuals who are interested in this kaleidoscopic field
>will disagree is inevitable--that they seem compelled to slander
>others in the process never ceases to amaze me.

Not slander, just a request for some proof..... like any
evidence for the existence of an inertial drive unit or
so-called 'antigravity' system.

Do you or your husband have a view on Senator Moynihans' recent
comments that scientific advances cannot be hidden for more than
a few years??

>Tim Matthews
>has chosen to publicly malign Ed

NO! Just to ask serious and detailed questions about his
"evidence", which by any standards can best be described as
hearsay.

Ed is playing to the conspiracy/black tech market where a good
story beats some important (though complicated) scientific
information.

I haven't heard him talking about smart materials and structures
and polymer matrix composites - even though these are essential
in the most advanced aircraft of the future. What voltage would
he or his associates suggest that scientists use to achieve
their goal in this field?

>on more than one occasion,
>which I find curious, as he has never met nor even spoken to
>him.  Ed has found the situation mildly humorous,

Whilst he'd having a laugh and earning money, people are being
misled.

>as he is
>confident in his sources and of the accuracy of content of the
>information he has released.

>Ed does not purport to be an expert

But I thought he knew all about the aerospace industry - and
this is the impression given in his various earlier and totally
factless postings.

Let's be honest about this for a moment.

I think that Ed is on the ol' Groom Lake bandwagon. The best
thing about it is that he knows that there is very little way of
proving whether he (or his sources) was ever there.

I have not heard anything from him that would convince me that
he is/was telling the truth. I have spoken with numerous
aviation and black projects researchers and NONE support what he
was said and/or written. If he was a technical expert he would
know things in minute detail - and he doesn't. He would not have
made the huge, glaring technical and factual errors in his
previous postings.

Here are just a few:

 - I don't think you can see the wingtips of an SR-71 from the
cockpit. Even if you had mirrors in the c/pit I think Ed might
find the engine pods in the way, but that's just an opinion.

 - is Ed aware that nobody has ever confirmed the existence of
the TR3A 'Manta' and that there is even a suggestion in some
quarters that this designation was confused with "Tier 3"/AARS?
The TR3B would be a two-seat variant of the TR3A.

I'm sure that some sort of similar aircraft, a counterpart to
the F-117A, does exist but not an anti-gravity triangle!!

I know what Ed will say; 'ah well, this is what I was told'.

Well he should have checked his sources - although most UFO
authors never appear to check their sources and it is the case
that in the US particularly there is a market for this kind of
material.

Ed also said that the TR1/U-2 was a glider. No doubt the jet
engines are just there for emergencies.....

Ed has provided us with NOTHING new! I really wish he had
provided us with reasonable and checkable information. My book -
'UFO Revelation' - has pages of reference material even though
it concludes that there are some extraordinary things flying
around.....

>and is relatively new to the
>field of UFOlogy.  He was simply the recipient of a body of
>information which he felt to be an important piece of the ET
>puzzle, and was entrusted by the providers of that information
>with task of making the information public.

And he did this all from the kindness of his heart and donated all
the money to charity to greater human understanding?

Don't think so!

>As to his
>credentials, they have withstood the examination of directors
>and producers at the BBC,

Well that doesn't mean a damn thing. Wake up! They have people
talking about animal mutilations and abductions on the BBC.

Have you seen 'Teletubbies'? That's a BBC 2 flagship programme!

For many years the BBC has been under serious competitive
pressure and it's standards have dropped.

>his illustrious co-author Brad
>Steiger, Diana Botsford, Publisher of the MSN UFO Community/host
>for an upcoming weekly talk show on Talkspot Network, and many
>others in the field.

This means nothing! I've been on dozens or radio and TV
programmes and assisted with various documentaries. That doesn't
mean anything in terms of credibility because, as we are
painfully aware, the makers of UFO documentaries are only
interested in selling their programme, making sensational
claims, and finally "just good TV".

Even news reports I see on TV have glaring factual errors in them......

>It not my style to retaliate; I rarely respond to the inevitable
>small-minded denigrations inherent to public exposure.  However,
>to equivocate Edgar Fouche' to a self-proclaimed hoaxer is
>ludicrous.  He is a man of character and a seeker of truth.

I'm sure Ed is a very nice guy but his claims about secret alien
technology don't hold water - although they are good currency
these days......

I don't think I said that he was "self-proclaimed hoaxer".....
If I did I apologize...

He may well be seeking the truth but he told us that he HAD the
truth already. He, in my ever-so-humble and non-Area 51 insider
opinion, is just seeking to make a fast buck. Many people appear
to have concluded that Ufology is little more than entertainment
and wish-fulfilment.

Under these circumstances Ed is giving people what they want,
and I am glad that he is. Good luck to him I say!

Come on Ed, give us something tangible!!

Happy new year, I'm off to watch a second-rate soccer game!

Tim Matthews.

>Would that all soldiers of ufology

Yuk! I left the Army years ago!





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 9

                      Re: A 'New' New Zealand UFO Book

From: Diane Harrison <tkbnetw@fan.net.au>
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 21:49:56 +1000
Fwd Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 15:45:28 -0500
Subject: Re: A 'New' New Zealand UFO Book


The Keith Basterfield Network Australasia
tkbnetw@fan.net.au

*************************************************************
UFO Australian  Research Network Hot Line Number
                       1800 77 22 88 Free Call
*************************************************************


Hi everyone a correction on Peter Hassell's postal
address for his New Book ZN files UFOs in New Zealand:

Greetings Dianne

I wish to thank you for the kind review of Peter Hassalls Book.

However there is one minor to correct
Peter Hassalls address is
        P.O.Box 27-432
        Marion Street
        Wellington

The rest of the details being correct

----------

Regards Diane Harrison





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 9

                            Alfred's Odd Ode #288

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 06:35:54 -0600
Fwd Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 15:53:28 -0500
Subject: Alfred's Odd Ode #288


Apology to MW #288 (For January 9, 1999)

We're at the whim of sullen monsters, churlish agents,
provocateurs. We're teased by charming charlatans, men in black,
and crooked jurors. Art and Jeff will give them airtime and the
dust is quickly raised! It's soon we're all insensible, standing
rigid, stunned and dazed. And once again the truth is lost; it
wanders in the fray. And once again a fog is loosed in which
we're all betrayed. And once again our steps are backward, and
we're hamstrung and delayed while a jealous few make profit for
_mistakes_ that they have made.

And a *magic* surely lingers in their sullen slight of hand --
the *magic* that exists beyond the science they command. The
*magic* of that two percent that changes all the rules. The
*magic* that's not copped to in disgraceful, low rent schools.
The *magic* that displays itself for free in all our skies; the
*magic* that betrays the man and all his skillful lies. The
*magic* of autonomy. The *magic* of release! The *magic* of our
future yawning vast -- without surcease.

The skeptibunky crowd delights in frauds of woo-woo light that
strengthen the positions of their science, and its worshipped
might. All is right with them, then, and their castles built of
air can be left to churlish offspring who are standing, idly,
there. The true believers -- disenfranchised from the
skeptibunky hoards, look beyond the hopeless pale to a time they
can _afford_. They're used up in that reaching for a brass ring,
they are told, is the object of *true* happiness: a car, a home
-- some fold. Seeing UFO's is silly; that's a dangerous kind of
thing. You're crazy if you need them -- to believe some hope
they bring. That there's more to mean existence than to toil
endlessly? That there's more to simple living than to struggle
needlessly? That there's more to life than working so a _few_
can rape the sky just to squander all the bounty they can tuck
away, connive?

It's tied up with our USELESS schools. They're designed to keep
us stupid. It's tied to population -- from the masses starved
and ruthless. The man won't have *sane* birth control when it's
_excess_ that's the flavor of manipulated mechanisms controlling
what he favors! The man can take your hopes and dreams to choose
from what he has. He won't be, first, respectful -- he won't
_care_ that you've been had. It's all about control, you see,
and secrets _keep_ control. It says he'll be reluctant giving up
on what he holds. It's why he makes ridiculous all the lights
that haunt the skies. Those lights imply that he is _passed_,
his system now deposed -- despised.

So damn you charmless agents, and go to hell (!) provocateurs.
Go back, you sullen monsters, to the cells you have procured.
Eat spit you charming charlatans, crooked jurors, men in black.
A little harder now to fool we've found the deck was surly
stacked! Art and Jeff will give you air time, so you hoist your
own petard. Be careful what your saying, or get smoked -- a
cheap cigar. Your ethics and your morals will be held as well to
you. And, _no_ more double standards to corrode our will -- just
truth.

Lehmberg@snowhill.com

A depression stems from the fact that it is so difficult to tell
the monsters, charlatans, provocateurs, crooked jurors, and men
in black from the genuine illuminati <g>. Finally, I come to the
conclusion that the genuine illuminati must be very rare <g>,
though all I have to do to be _personally_ convinced of their
existence is to look deeply into a clear night sky.

I can't fault the facilitator, the brave individual that
provides a forum for the enigmatic questions that should compel
each and every one of us. Errol, Jeff, Laura, and Art et. al.
are people that provide a journalistic treatment of these
issues, flatly, not found anywhere else in the world. The others
laugh up their sleeves, lack the stones to ask the tough
questions, or openly sneer at what these folks serve up as daily
fare. Frankly, I'd love to be where these people are, doing what
they do, seeing what they see . . . hearing what they hear, and
then I realize that, through them, to a large extent, that is
_exactly_ what I'm doing! I am compelled to a respect and an
appreciation for that. If it's subsequently discovered that
they're just selling terror to juice the sales of wind-up radios
-- well, I'll remember _I_ was brave enough to ask, look, and
finally, do some critical thinking on my own. I'm not buying in,
per say -- but I'm reading the hell out of the anomalous
prospectus, as there is _something_ going on that is not _sold_
in our rigidly controlled and *mainstream* church, press, or
government.

Restore John Ford!

--
Explore the Alien View!
Ponder the Wit & Wisdom of Ching Chow!

http://www.fortunecity.com/roswell/arecibo/46/

<Updated 8 January>

John Ford Restoration Fund -- Send your checks and
money orders to _me_, Alfred Lehmberg
(cut out the lawyers, they got their's) at:
304 Melbourne Drive, Enterprise AL, 36330. Strict records kept.

"Only thin, _very light_ envelopes with a return address will be
accepted <g>." ~~~ $225.00 pledged -- $125.00 collected ~~~

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see from
afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, while burning at the
fundamentalist's stake.





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 9

                       Re: FOX Hoax Special - Reaction

From: Jacques Poulet <jpoulet@chucara.com>
Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 07:57:16 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 15:55:34 -0500
Subject: Re: FOX Hoax Special - Reaction


>Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 12:59:58 -0500 (EST)
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Bob Shell <bob@bobshell.com>
>Subject: Re: FOX Hoax Special - Reaction

Hi Bob and All,

>>Now, a lawyer might want to weigh in on this, but an interesting
>>way to test Santilli's resolve is for others to start copying
>>and selling tapes of his AA footage, sans the opening titles or
>>credits or narrative sections that he or the networks produced.
>>After all, if the AA footage was produced by the military, then
>>it was paid for with US tax dollars and now belongs to the
>>general public, just like early NASA photos. For Santilli to
>>protect his copyright, (and his profits) he'd have to prove that
>>he produced the AA footage from scratch!

>WRONG!!!!!!  This has been done.  Ask Chuck Harder about it.

Gee... I must have been in a cave for quite some time... What's
that all about? Was Santilli "tested" this way?



Jacques Poulet
Phone: (514) 913-0274

http://www.chucara.com/

Fortean Files CDROM   http://members.tripod.com/jpoulet/

CHUCARA
Box 61
La Prairie, Qc





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 9

                 New Contact - Katherine On-Line - Australia

From: Diane Harrison <tkbnetw@fan.net.au>
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 23:30:17 +1000
Fwd Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 16:02:52 -0500
Subject: New Contact - Katherine On-Line - Australia


The Keith Basterfield Network Australasia -

http://www.fan.net.au/~tkbnetwtkbnetw@fan.net.au

*************************************************************
UFO Australian  Research Network Hot Line Number
                       1800 77 22 88 Free Call
*************************************************************

A New Contact:  We now have Katherine on-line

Katherine is 320klm SE of Darwin

Independent Researcher Allan Domaschenz

P.O.Box 72,
Katherine
Northern Territory, 0851
Tel Contact: ( 08 ) 8972 1685
E-mail: domo@nt-tech.com.au

The team is getting bigger welcome Allan

Regards Diane Harrison








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 9

                       Re: FOX Hoax Special - Reaction

From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 09:52:18 +0000
Fwd Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 16:06:21 -0500
Subject: Re: FOX Hoax Special - Reaction


>From: Steven W. Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
>Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 06:39:19 -0500
>Fwd Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 00:27:02 -0500
>Subject: Re: FOX Hoax Special - Reaction

>>From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
>>Date: Thu, 07 Jan 1999 17:34:50 +0000
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>Subject: FOX Hoax Special - Reaction

Previously, I had offered:

>>I think there is a general misconception people have about the
>>overall "high expense" and "risk" of producing the AA footage.
>>Nothing visible on screen is so unique that it couldn't be found
>>in garage sales and resale shops. I know of at least four
>>surplus places in Houston, alone, that would have all the old
>>surgical hardware such as table, instruments, gowns etc. If I
>>had to put a dollar figure on it all, I doubt it would top
>>$5,000 and that would be generous. The alien, of course, would
>>have to be manufactured. However, despite much admiration some
>>people seem to have for the "realistic" look of the alien, I
>>personally find it to be quite stiff and crude. I know half a
>>dozen guys in the low budget film industry that could do a
>>better job for under $10,000 and would take the money and keep
>>their mouths shut because they would just be happy to have the
>>work!

Steve replied:

>If your friends could produce a better AA "film" for $10,000,
>they should have spoken up when this was being discussed on the
>"net".

<snip>

Hi Steve,

I never said that a better AA film could be produced for
$10,000. I said that a better ALIEN could be produced for
$10,000. My post above got snipped prematurely, though I'm sure
you didn't do it on purpose. If it had continued, I said that
Santilli probably spent no more than $20,000 on the AA footage
altogether and that it would be peanuts at double that price
($40,000).

It is understandable that many would think the moviemaking
process is expensive; it can be with big name stars and the
like. But the fact is that I've directed low budget features
running 90 to 120 minutes for prices ranging from $50,000 to
$120,000. Incidently, the one for $120,000 dollars was a poorly
scripted Horror film called "Forever Evil" (United
Entertainment/VCI Home Video). It starred absolutely no one
famous; all unknowns. It has played on the USA network at least
twice that I know of and, last I checked, had grossed over 2
million dollars. Therefore, if decent production values can be
maintained on a 120 minute film at $120,000, then it stands to
reason having $20,000 to $40,000 to produce only a few minutes
of crap like the AA footage would be a windfall, even if
Santilli had to hire someone to produce it for him. Believe me,
Santilli had every reason to believe that he'd make serious
money off his little hoax. Come to think of it, if everyone
involved was in a profit sharing arraingement, they'd have
plenty of good reasons to keep their mouhts shut!

Moving on, Steve wrote:

>On the other hand, I've communicated with >several in the
medical profession who are convinced they were >watching a real
medical proceedure, and not a re-creation.  So, >what are we
left with?   It would seem we have opinions from >experts in
their fields who view the same "film" from their >respective
positions.

This is understandable since we are, after all, dealing with the
world of make believe. If you watch the movie "The Competition"
with Richard Dreyfus and Amy Irving, there are shots of them
playing piano where the camera pans down in one continuous
motion from their faces to their hands; also wider full body
shots, as well. I have many friends that are professional
keyboard players and they were absolutely convinced that the two
actors had classical piano training and were really playing the
pianos without missing a note. If you check out the footage I
speak of, it is really quite startling. Of course, the truth is
that they were playing musical giberish in beat with the real
sound track's score.

This is not to say that they had no training or preparation for
the roles; they had a lot. But they simply were not capable of
performing the intricate finger work necessary to actually play
the music. None the less, the final effect is totally
convincing. This information is based on interviews and behind
the scenes footage produced in conjuction with the movie.

Like wise, having spent years in the operating room as a medical
illustrator, I can tell you that the difference between a
surgical move that is correct and one that isn't is merely
millimeters in difference, and that's on a living person where
it REALLY counts! It would not be visible to the naked eye of an
observer in O.R. and certainly would not be apparent on the
crummy AA footage. Granted, just like the piano footage above,
the overall hand positions and movements might ring true; that's
easy, any person could do it. But what the fingers do on a micro
level is what really counts and there's no way to make that
distinction, even on well produced operating room documentation.
Consult your medical friends again, I'm sure they'll agree.

Continuing, Steve wrote:

>I have seen three "professional" re-creations of the AA "film",
>and I believe that at least one of them cost far more than the
>$10,000 figure you mention.

<snip>

>But to
>charactorize it as easy to create, for just a few thousand
>dollars, misses the point of many "expert" statements that have
>gone before.

I don't believe that $20,000 to $40,000 dollars is quite the
same as "just a few thousand dollars", Steve. Please re-read my
post concerning my projected costs. As far as the other
"experts" are concerned, I've only been with this list for about
4 or 5 months. The only other person that I've seen make
technical comments here about the AA footage is Bob Shell and he
and I disagree on just about everything. Can you direct me to
others? I'd like to review what they had to say, as well.

>It is Ray Santilli's responsibility to prove his film has
>worth, and not the role of UFOlogists to prove it a fake.

Agreed. But he won't.

Take care,

Roger Evans





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 9

                       Re: FOX Hoax Special - Reaction

From: moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com
Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 10:34:38 +0000
Fwd Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 16:08:57 -0500
Subject: Re: FOX Hoax Special - Reaction


>From: Gildas Bourdais <GBourdais@aol.com>
>Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 11:07:21 EST
>Fwd Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 00:47:19 -0500
>Subject: Re: FOX Hoax Special - Reaction

>>From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
>>Date: Thu, 07 Jan 1999 17:34:50 +0000
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>Subject: FOX Hoax Special - Reaction

Previously, I had written:

>>In all, I doubt that Santilli spent more than $20,000 dollars.
>>Peanuts at double that price, especially if he can sell the
>>video to network television or offer it to the sell-through
>>market on home video. I'm sure he's spent as much producing a
>>single music video. I know I have, even for an unknown group
>>with little or no hope of making it commercially as a result of
>>the video.

Gildas replied:

>Interesting arguments, but I find them hardly credible.

Okay, Gildas. Why do you find them hardly credible? But before
you answer, why don't you check out my response to Steve
Kaeser's post on this same thread. It might fill in some of the
blanks for you.

Moving on, Gildas offered:

>I keep
>thinking that it is a sophisticated fabrication, probably close
>to the real thing, but with deliberate mistakes that a first
>degree hoaxer would not have done.

>I still think that the film was very well made, and must have
>cost a lot of time, carefull planning, money, and quite a few
>experts around. The body is very impressive, with the blood on
>the cuts, etc.

Gildas, you really need to check out a few low budget horror
films if you think this stuff is sophisticated. "Blood on the
cuts" is the easiest stage trick around. Mickey-mouse stuff, all
of it.

>The "mistakes" are also too obvious not to have been introduced
>on purpose. For instance, the clumsy camera movements when it
>comes to close-ups. I did myself some shooting (more than a
>hundred 100 feet reels) with hand held 16 mm camera, and I can
>tell you that the first thing to learn is to hold firmly the
>camera. If Santilli had hired a cameraman, anyone with some
>training would have fared better.

Please re-read my post. I said that I doubted a professional
cameraman shot a single frame of the AA footage.

>Which means that it was
>purposely lousy. I see two possible reasons for that. First, to
>prevent too close examination of body parts and/or, more subtly,
>to lower the credibility of the film, and it worked.

Of course the AA film was purposely lousy!

It was designed to fit the general public's misperception of
what archival footage from that era should look like. One of my
fundamental problems with the footage is that it's TOO lousy for
such a momentous event!

Continuing, I had written:

>>As far as risk is concerned; there really isn't any. Since no
>>faces are shown, all involved would be sorely lacking in proof
>>if they tried to "squeal" on Santilli. In fact, should any of
>>the actors cause him to lose money by making claims that they
>>can't prove, Santilli could sue THEM and would probably win,
>>too.

Gildas responded:

>Yes, the fact that all faces are hidden is, of course, very
>suspect. But it is just as necessary for the team protection,
>wether it is a simple hoax or a more complex operation.

The "containment" suits are a joke, used only to hide any
evidence of the actors's identities. For instance, you'll notice
that the suits are not air tight; there's no air hoses or any
life support going to them. Nothing was achieved through the use
of those suits that a simple surgical gown and mask could not
have done more comfortably. In addition, this was supposedly all
very "hurry, hurry" and at the last minute stuff. What? They
just HAPPENED to have these surgical "containment" suits around
but couldn't manage something as simple as additional lights to
allow for better focus? Silly.

>I maintain that it would have been very risky as a simple hoax.
>People willing to participate in such an operation are not of a
>very scrupulous kind, and therefore present a risk, even years
>later. There are many ways to prove a hoax when you have
>participated in it, especially  if you have been careful to keep
>some proofs of it. There is also the blackmailing risk. Any
>participant with such a proof could sink him.

Unless they were part of a profit sharing program. The same
"doctors" seen in the AA footage may be the extent of the
overall team. Considering the money to be made, why "screw the
pooch"?

>One more detail. I was at the first screening in London on May
>5, 1995, with some French friends. One of them, Jean Gresl=E9,
>talked with Santilli and he discovered that he was very ignorant
>of the Roswell case. One more indication that Santilli, most
>probably, was not the producer of the film.

Gildas, when I write a check at the grocery store, the cashier
always looks at the name, address and phone info printed and
asks,

"Is everything on your check correct?"

What does this person expect me to say?

"No, you got me. The check's stolen and I was gonna try and slip
something by you. But you're too fast for me; you caught me!"

Do you think Santilli is going to act any differently? Playing
"dumb" is probably the easiest thing Santilli has to do in
association with this whole extravaganza.

He'll never admit anything when there's money to be made.

Later,






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 9

                       Re: FOX Hoax Special - Reaction

From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 11:24:44 +0000
Fwd Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 16:11:10 -0500
Subject: Re: FOX Hoax Special - Reaction


>From: Bob Shell <bob@bobshell.com>
>Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 12:59:58 -0500 (EST)
>Fwd Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 00:52:04 -0500
>Subject: Re: FOX Hoax Special - Reaction

>>From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
>>Date: Thu, 07 Jan 1999 17:34:50 +0000
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>Subject: FOX Hoax Special - Reaction

Previously, I had offered:

>>Finding the old film stock is not impossible. I, personally,
>>have stumbled onto old rolls of B&W film dating back to 1958. I
>>shot them and they processed up just fine, though a little
>>grainy. Therefore, film and processing is practically free, as
>>is the old Bell and Howell it was probably shot with. I wouldn't
>>be surprised if the camera and film were found together in
>>someone's attic! From the look of it, I doubt very seriously
>>that a trained camera man shot one single frame, so you know his
>>cost was doodly-squat.

Bob's response:

>Finding old film stock from 1947, and an ultra fast film at
>that, is a different matter, Roger.  If you did find some, it
>would be hopelessly fogged by now by background radiation, no
>matter how it was stored.

This is a bit much, don't you think? After all, if the vintage
1958 film I found was okay, then what's another 10 or 11 years?
Obviously, what you claim is true, but not all of the time.

>Processing would also be problematic, since you can't run this
>old film through today's chemicals.  The emulsion would just
>come right off.

So don't run them through today's chemicals. Sheesh. I can't
play CD's on my mother's old 8-track either!

More to the point, correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't you say
in an earlier post that you've never seen the original film? My
understanding is you've only seen a print. I don't believe we
have any proof that the actual film used to produce the AA
footage was really produced in 1947, do we?

Continuing, I offered:

>>The actor's faces were conveniently covered, so their "fees"
>>would be minimal, probably no more than $200 per person, if even
>>that. Santilli could easily afford to "sweeten" the deal by
>>doubling or tripling their fees to keep them quiet, though it
>>really wouldn't be necessary.

Bob's reply:

>Huh????  Now why wouldn't it be necessary to pay them "hush
>money"?  Let's say they had been paid, oh $ 5,000 each for the
>sake of argument.  You don't think Bob Kiviat could scrape up a
>LOT more than that to offer them if they came forward?
>
>Nope, your argument here just doesn't make sense.

Of course it does, Bob.

Legally, if Bob Kaviat paid someone to come on national
television and make claims that they couldn't prove, then
Kaviat, himself, would be over a barrel in court if Santilli
lost money as a result of unsubstantiated claims. Why? Because
lawyers always go for the deepest pockets in a chain of
defendents. It happens all the time. Kaviat would know better
than to risk it just for the increase in ratings, if any. And
don't forget, it's not likely that Fox is going to let Kaviat do
anything to put THEM at risk either. Networks often make
overseas deals on domestic programming. The tendrils for this
show are wide spread, I'm sure.

Tragically, I had written:

>>Gilda continued by offering this:

In an apparently anal retentive mood, Bob replied:

>His name is Gildas, Roger.  He is a man.  I can attest to this
>since I met him in Paris when we both were featured on the TF-1
>network's TV program on the film!!!!! <G>

Boy, drop an "s" and one's whole theory goes right out the
window!<g>

Moving on, I wrote:

>>I've posted earlier why I find the notion of some guy processing
>>several hundred feet of film in a bucket and trying to find a
>>place to hang-dry it really stupid. I know Bob Shell disagrees,
>>and he has his reasons. But it makes no sense to me at all,
>>despite the army manuals of the day claiming that it could be
>>done.

Bob replies:

>Roger, I never said that the film was processed in a bucket,
>just that it could have been if absolutely necessary.

 <snip>

>I think the film was processed in a hand-crank processing tank,
>as were often used by the military in those days.

This is news to me. It's possible that I missed it, but I don't
ever recall you making this statement about the hand cranked
processor during our protracted debate a few months back.
Perhaps I misunderstood your assertion regarding hand processing
when you spoke about the ability to process in a bucket. Where
in the archives of our discussion do you make this exact
distinction?

Finally, I had suggested:

>>Now, a lawyer might want to weigh in on this, but an interesting
>>way to test Santilli's resolve is for others to start copying
>>and selling tapes of his AA footage, sans the opening titles or
>>credits or narrative sections that he or the networks produced.
>>After all, if the AA footage was produced by the military, then
>>it was paid for with US tax dollars and now belongs to the
>>general public, just like early NASA photos. For Santilli to
>>protect his copyright, (and his profits) he'd have to prove that
>>he produced the AA footage from scratch!

Bob replied:

>WRONG!!!!!!  This has been done.  Ask Chuck Harder about it.

I don't know Chuck. Perhaps someone can fill me in on the
details of what happened.

Thanks,






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 9

                     UFO Cults - A research question...

From: Scott Carr <sardonica@erols.com>
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 12:51:14 -0800
Fwd Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 16:18:22 -0500
Subject: UFO Cults - A research question...

Dear list,

I would if I could employ some of your help and advice in a
rather portentous project that I am considering at "The Flying
Saucer Gazette?"

I am beginning to devote a great deal of time to studying the
cult phenomenon (threat), and am planning to focus on three
specific facets of it:

1. Cults and survival groups which are driven by (or inspired
by) the approaching Millenium (with a possible focus on UFO
related cults).

2. The internal structure/psychology of the cult system and its
leader- what holds it together, and how does the group
psychology work? And

3. The development of fringe and sub-cultures, and how they
might be similar or different from cults. I would really like to
find information on the topic of how a belief system can be
created and implemented among a small closed group of people.

I realize that this is quite a broad range of topics, but I
would like to draw on this list's expertise in recommending the
very best in resource material: publications, books, web sites,
etc...

Thanks in advance for your input, and hope to hear from you
soon.


-Scott C. Carr

Editor, The Flying Saucer Gazette
http://www.erols.com/sardonica

Producer, "UFO Desk"
99.5 FM WBAI, NY





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 9

                             Re: Fox TV Special

From: Michael Christol <mchristo@mindspring.com>
Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 13:58:33 -0600
Fwd Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 16:20:28 -0500
Subject: Re: Fox TV Special


>From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
>Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 18:49:30 +0000
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Fox TV Special

>>They verified that the sounds resonated at the same frequency
>>when they harmonized, as the earth

>I do have a musical background, but for the life of me I'm not
>quite sure what this means or what its significance is. I'm not
>casting doubts on what you are saying; on the contrary, I don't
>really even understand it. Can you fill me in? And if not, is
>there a more accomplished musician on the list that can?


It seems that the power system which propels the Beam Ship,
resonates on the same frequency as that of the earth.

So, this would explain why the vehicle could operate so well
within the atmosphere of this planet.

Apparently the propulsion system is capable of acclimating
itself to the planetary field within which it is operating.

REgards, Mike





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 9

                                 Joe Firmage

From: Joe Firmage <jfirmage@uswebcks.com>
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 13:36:49 -0800
Fwd Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 16:55:18 -0500
Subject: Joe Firmage


Hello everyone,

Some of you may have heard the news that I have chosen to step
aside from my position as Chief Strategist at USWeb.

First off, I'd like to say that there have been wild
exaggerations of my assertions by the press. I expected this
(this whole bit of "reverse engineered technology" as one
example has been wildly exaggerated, as anyone who actually has
read my book knows, meanwhile the important parts of the book
that I've truly stressed to reporters go unreported). Thus
reality is transformed into caricature. Anticipating this
inability on the part of the press to think and report in shades
of gray rather than simply black and white led me to propose to
my associates several days ago that I step aside.

This is a long process and it has just begun. I love the company
we've created far too much to see it take any collateral flack
from my publishing.

I will be releasing on the Internet an official synopsis of my
book shortly which, among other things, will clarify what I have
actually said and what I actually believe, as opposed to the
"X-Files" sensationalizations reported. In comparing the two
versions of the story, many of you may see for the first time a
real-time living example of the ways in which remarkable ideas
can be and have been trivialized and discredited.

The wonderful thing about the Internet is that irresponsible
journalism can be circumvented through direct broadcast
communication.

Very best,

Joseph Firmage





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 9

                             Re: Fox TV Special

From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 17:05:24 +0000
Fwd Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 17:09:17 -0500
Subject: Re: Fox TV Special


>From: Michael Christol <mchristo@mindspring.com>
>Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 13:58:33 -0600
>Fwd Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 16:20:28 -0500
>Subject: Re: Fox TV Special

>>From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
>>Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 18:49:30 +0000
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>Subject: Fox TV Special

Previously, Michael had offered the following:

>>>They verified that the sounds resonated at the same frequency
>>>when they harmonized, as the earth

My reply:

>>I do have a musical background, but for the life of me I'm not
>>quite sure what this means or what its significance is. I'm not
>>casting doubts on what you are saying; on the contrary, I don't
>>really even understand it. Can you fill me in? And if not, is
>>there a more accomplished musician on the list that can?

Michael responds:

>It seems that the power system which propels the Beam Ship,
>resonates on the same frequency as that of the earth.
>
>So, this would explain why the vehicle could operate so well
>within the atmosphere of this planet.
>
>Apparently the propulsion system is capable of acclimating
>itself to the planetary field within which it is operating.

My response:

Is this what you believe or what Billy believes?

Frankly, it all sounds like psuedo-scientific gobbledy-gook. I
didn't even know that the earth resonated, at all. Do our NASA
rockets' propulsion systems also resonate the same as the earth.
Is that why they operate so well within our atmosphere? Is such
a a thing required in the aerospace industry? I read the words
but still don't understand.

Waiting for an explanation I can swallow.

Roger Evans





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 9

                             Sightings - Czarnik

From: Michael Christol <mchristo@mindspring.com>
Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 16:05:37 -0600
Fwd Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 17:11:23 -0500
Subject: Sightings - Czarnik


>Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 08:32:41 -0600
>From: Ron Decker <decker@wt.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Sightings - Czarnik


>Mike,

>For what it's worth (I know the following is hearsay), a friend
>and former co-worker told me of a conversation he had with his
>next-door neighbor a couple of years ago.  He lives in the
>NASA/Clear Lake area south of Houston.

>My friend told me that he and the next-door neighbor were
>getting aquainted one day and were talking about their work (my
>friend's an accountant). The next-door neighbor claimed he
>worked for NASA and his job was to baby-sit a certain button.
>The neighbor's job was to watch live feeds from NASA missions
>and screen video that 'wasn't supposed to be seen by the
>public'. When something popped up that wasn't to go out for
>public consumption, he would push the button removing the feed
>from public view. Unfortunately he wouldn't reveal what the
>criteria were for censuring.

>As I said, the story is hearsay so take it for what it's worth.


Hi Ron.

I am sorry for the delay in replying...your message was lost in
the shuffle of all the emails I receive.

I wish to thank you for the reply to my message, and I would not
be surprised at the validity of it.

They use to have live feeds until the STS-38 flight changed all
that.  I have videos of that flight film of the objects moving
across the rim of the earth...

I have other videos of daytime shots taken of the earth as well,
showing objects moving across the face of the planet at regular
intervals.

If it is possible to receive direct coloberation from your
friend, I would be interested in doing so... I would appreciate
any assistance in contacting the author of the "pushing button"
story...

All of this would be held in the strictest confidence, unless
permission was given to use the information.

Thanks again.

REgards, Mike





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 9

                 Space Command Surveillance 'FENCE' Revealed

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 21:43:34 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 21:43:34 -0500
Subject: Space Command Surveillance 'FENCE' Revealed





Source: Sightings On The Radio

http://www.sightings.com/ufo2/surveilfence.htm


The US Space Command Surveillance 'FENCE' Revealed
By Dr. Paul Schumacher
Technical Advisor
Naval Space Command
Logistics and Information Systems Division

From Michael Theroux <director@borderlands.com>
www.borderlands.com

1-7-99

For more than 35 years, the U.S. Space Command (USSPACECOM) and
its predecessor organizations have maintained a continuous
surveillance of space and a complete inventory of trackable
Earth-orbiting objects. This space surveillance mission is
rooted in the military's need to know when hostile satellites
might be in position to target operational units or collect
intelligence.

But, as the number of objects - satellites and debris - orbiting
the Earth has grown, the 'space watch' has also become
increasingly important in protecting the safety of manned and
unmanned missions into space.

Today, in one of the largest-scale tracking enterprises ever
undertaken, more than 9,500 objects are tracked daily by a
network of more than 20 sensors spread around the globe.
'Objects' includes active and inactive satellites, as well as
assorted 'space junk.' And the total trackable population has
been growing at a long-term rate of about 250 objects per year.

Of particular concern in recent years is the planned deployment
of large new satellite constellations such as Iridium and
Teledesic, which will increase the trackable orbiting population
by hundreds of objects in a short period of time. Additionally,
concerns about the risk to payloads from small space debris have
led to proposals to expand the catalog to include objects as
small as 1 centimeter in size - potentially over 400,000 in
number. These trends threaten to overburden our current space
surveillance system.

However, a number of initiatives by Naval Space Command
(NAVSPACECOM) will help ensure that the United States will be
able to maintain a much larger and more rapidly growing space
catalog in the years ahead.

The Surveillance Challenge

USSPACECOM's satellite catalog is a database of orbital elements
from which it is possible to calculate position and velocity at
any time for any trackable object in Earth orbit. Predicted
positions of these objects are essential data for all analyses,
including threat assessments. But since the prediction accuracy
of each element set degrades with time from the last contact
with the object, all objects must be tracked continually and
element set updates calculated frequently if the threat
assessments and other analyses are to be valid.

The operators of active payloads usually use some kind of
cooperative tracking scheme to determine the orbits of their
satellites. Radio beacons, on-board sensors, laser
retroreflectors, on-board GPS receivers and other systems are
commonplace. They provide accurate orbits very economically.
Cooperative tracking also neatly identifies which satellite is
being tracked in a constellation of several objects, since each
payload can, for example, be assigned a unique frequency.

However, for space surveillance, non-cooperative tracking is
mandatory, for at least two reasons. First, one cannot assume
that enemy satellites will emit signals that are usable for
orbit determination by friendly forces. Second, 90 to 95 percent
of cataloged space objects are inert - dead payloads, empty
rocket bodies, a variety of objects deliberately jettisoned from
payloads and rocket bodies, and miscellaneous debris from
satellite explosions and other inadvertent causes. It is
essential to track and maintain current orbital elements for
every object that has a reasonable probability of detection,
including debris, if the catalog is to serve its purposes.

Non-cooperative tracking tends to be more expensive and less
accurate per observation than a cooperative method, especially
for radars, the mainstay of surveillance tracking. Moreover,
with non-cooperative tracking there is the problem of
determining from which object a given measurement originates.
This problem of data association is, in fact, one of the most
difficult aspects of multitarget, multisensor tracking. It is
often the limiting factor in overall system performance,
especially if the principal means of target identification is
only the positional tracking data themselves, the case in space
surveillance today.

In recent years, multitarget, multisensor problems other than
space surveillance have spawned a vast and sophisticated
literature. One of the first lessons of research related to
ballistic missile defense was that the processing needed for
data association and sensor coordination (command and control)
always increases exponentially with the number of objects being
tracked, and rapidly becomes unfeasible for any current
technology when the number of targets rises to a few thousand.

100 Fly Balls

There is an easily visualized baseball analogy. Imagine the
difficulties faced by 100 outfielders on the same field trying
to catch 100 simultaneous fly balls. Space surveillance is
actually easier than the outfielders' problem for a number of
reasons:

A complete catalog has been maintained since the first satellite
was launched. Satellite motion can usually be predicted much
more accurately than the motion of other high-interest objects
such as missiles, aircraft and baseballs. Very few satellites
maneuver, split into several distinct satellites or try to evade
detection. The space environment provides a low-clutter
background against which to track most satellites, so that the
false-detection rate is extremely low. Large as it is, the
current catalog size is small enough to prevent frequent
confusion of targets by the sensors. Since cataloging was
started almost 40 years ago, computer and communication
capabilities have always grown faster than the catalog size.

The essential problem of space surveillance is data association.
The space object catalog is maintainable only to the extent that
sensor observations can be associated with the correct
satellite.

All of the above factors combine to simplify the problem of data
association enough for straightforward processing techniques to
work. The current system does, in fact, depend critically on
these simplifying factors.

If any of the above fortuitious circumstances were to change for
the worse in the long term, we would have to both re-think the
current concept of operations and invest in major technical
improvements throughout the system.

Sometimes one or more of these circumstances does change
temporarily and in those cases we do face special difficulties
maintaining the catalog. For example, solar storms disturb the
upper atmosphere and temporarily degrade our ability to predict
near-Earth orbits accurately. On at least one occasion during
March 1989, the integrity of the catalog was endangered because
of unpredictable atmospheric perturbations affecting an
unprecedented number of orbits.

In another example, satellite break-ups may instantly increase
the trackable orbiting population by 500 or 600 objects. A
substantial fraction of the objects detected by a sensor may be
uncataloged and therefore unknown to any other sensors.

Once the break-up pieces have separated sufficiently, typically
after a few hours, we can begin to determine orbits for all
trackable pieces. It usually takes from a few days to several
weeks to find all the pieces, depending on the size of the
break-up.

The Surveillance 'Fence'

The space surveillance sensor operated by NAVSPACECOM is unique
in the worldwide inventory of space tracking assets. It is
particularly valuable for catalog maintenance and high-altitude
unalerted detection.

The 'fence,' as it has come to be known, is a continuous-wave,
multistatic radar interferometer deployed along a great-circle
arc across the southern United States. Raw signals detected at
the receiver stations are sampled at an effective rate of 55 Hz
for up to one second as a satellite passes through the sensor
beam, and then forwarded in real time to NAVSPACECOM's
computational center at Dahlgren.

Although most satellites are in the near-Earth regime, the fence
routinely makes detections at ranges of more than 25,000
kilometers and occasionally at ranges of more than 40,000
kilometers. Well over 60 percent of the entire space catalog is
visible to the fence.

Objects in low-inclination orbits, or extremely small objects,
are essentially the only ones not routinely detected, and at
present there are more than 100 satellites that no other sensor
but the fence detects routinely.

Predictions based on the most recent element set for each
satellite are computed for 36 hours into the future every time
the element set is updated, or at least once per day. These
predictions are sorted in time order and merged with the
predictions for all other satellites in a single prediction
database. The fence data association then proceeds in time order
as the observations arrive.

Normally, at least 97 percent of the fence observations can be
associated automatically with known satellites. This is a
noticeably higher percentage than can presently be associated by
the other tracking sensors in USSPACECOM's Space Surveillance
Network, which makes the NAVSPACECOM combined fence-database
system an especially important asset for analyzing any
observation or track that has not been associated with a known
satellite.

Known as 'uncorrelated targets,' or UCTs, these observations
must be disposed of by either associating them with a cataloged
element set or an existing analyst element set, or by creating a
new analyst element set from the UCT data.

Satellite break-up events present special challenges because
many unassociated observations and an unknown number of new
satellites are involved. Whenever the automatic system cannot
associate observations with known satellites, orbital analysts
must use special software tools and manual processing to make
the proper data association.

Recently, advanced computation and parallel processing
techniques have made it possible for analysts to consider many
more association hypotheses than in the past. Although the
analyst work is inherently slower than real-time, it is still
essential to make the correct data associations as soon as
possible. Human expertise built up through long experience has
always been indispensible for this analysis.

Near-Term Improvements

In order to improve our cataloging process, we must improve data
association. This, in turn, calls for better accuracy and
precision of observations, better accuracy of predictions and
faster processing to accommodate the growing catalog. Some
aspects of these problems are now being addressed in research
efforts at NAVSPACECOM.

The distributed computing system at NAVSPACECOM has the basic
computing capacity to use a fairly sophisticated special
perturbation (SP) numerical integration orbit model for catalog
maintenance. Most satellite programs use SP models for
operations because they are the most accurate methods of
prediction, though they are computation-intensive.

Space surveillance is one of the few space activities that still
relies mostly on general perturbation (GP) analytical models
which can execute much faster than SP models, though with
reduced prediction accuracies. Though NAVSPACECOM,s computer
network was not specifically designed for the extra processing
load of SP, it is a very capable system and efforts are underway
to maximize the network,s capacity for such computation.
Parallel processing seems to be the most practical and
economical way to achieve this.

For the past several years, NAVSPACECOM has been developing, in
collaboration with researchers at the Naval Research Laboratory,
parallel versions of three important space surveillance
applications:

* COMBO (Computation of Miss Between Objects) computes when
close approaches between selected satellites will occur. It has
several uses, though perhaps the most important is for collision
avoidance for the Space Shuttle. To date, during more than 500
days of on-orbit Shuttle operations, there have been seven
occasions when cataloged objects came within a 'warning zone'
extending 4 kilometers radial, 10 kilometers along-track and 4
kilometers cross-track, centered on the Shuttle. On four of
those occasions, the Shuttle has maneuvered to avoid the risk of
collision.

COMBO analysis is the means by which U.S. Space Command provides
notice to NASA sufficiently far in advance for the Shuttle to be
able to maneuver. The parallel COMBO algorithm successfully
demonstrated at NAVSPACECOM uses up to 23 medium-performance
workstations to analyze the list of all U.S. satellites of
military interest (198 satellites at this writing) for close
approaches to any cataloged object for a period of seven days,
in a total run time of well under an hour.

* SAD (Search and Determine) is used by NAVSPACECOM orbital
analysts to associate sparse UCT data that are widely separated
in time and to generate candidate element sets from the database
of UCT observations. The software works by generating candidate
element sets from every possible pair of UCT radar observations
and comparing each of these candidates against the entire
database of observations.

A parallel version for up to 23 workstations is now available to
NAVSPACECOM analysts and has been in use for several months. It
is capable of processing 30 days' worth of UCT data in about six
to 12 hours. However, some work remains to improve the
efficiency of the implementation and to integrate it into
routine operations.

* Parallel SP-based catalog maintenance is in development, and
initial demonstration runs on the NAVSPACECOM network have
begun.

Additionally, the problem of parallel database management to
support all these processes is receiving intense investigation.

Far-Term Improvements

In the more distant future, we will have to consider how
advanced computation - especially parallel processing - allows
us to re-engineer the whole catalog maintenance system. For
example, should the catalog have to include small debris, we
will need a more robust catalog maintenance process, and we will
need it before the catalog begins to grow rapidly, because of
the large numbers of UCTs that will have to be processed.

Ultimately it is desirable to be able to reconstitute the entire
catalog without any prior element sets or data associations. At
present and for the forseeable future, we have neither the
resources nor the know-how to do this task, meaning that the
satellite catalog should be considered a national treasure.

Rebuilding the catalog ab initio on demand in a reasonable
amount of time is the 'grand challenge' problem of space
surveillance. It is probably out of reach to solve this problem
in practical terms anytime soon, but by pursuing it we will
develop the more robust catalog maintenance process that we do
need soon.

In particular, we need detailed modeling and simulation of the
entire space cataloging operation in order to estimate system
sensitivities, risks, performance boundaries, failure modes and
relative merits of proposed improvements. High-fidelity
simulation of the whole system at both sensor level and
command-and-control level is probably the only way that a full
reconstitution capability can be developed and tested.

Author Dr. Paul Schumacher is technical advisor for Naval Space
Command's Logistics and Information Systems Division.







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 9

                    Computer Pioneer Quits To Chase UFOs

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 21:56:41 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 21:56:41 -0500
Subject: Computer Pioneer Quits To Chase UFOs




Soruce: http://members.aol.com/ufoseek/ceo_ufo.htm

Saturday January 9, 3:26 pm Eastern Time

Real-life X-File? Computer pioneer
quits to chase UFOs

By Andrew Quinn

SAN FRANCISCO, Jan 9 (Reuters) - In the X-Files it would be
called the case of the CEO and the UFO.

Joe Firmage, who at the age of 28 has made not one but two
mega-fortunes as a computer pioneer in California's Silicon
Valley, has quit the $2 billion company he helped found to
promote what he calls "the most important news event in 2000
years" -- his belief that many of today's scientific advances
came from space aliens.

"Why would a young, successful CEO risk his reputation on
something this fantastic?" Firmage told Saturday's San
Francisco Chronicle in announcing his departure from USWeb/CKS
(Nasdaq:USWB - news), an Internet marketing and consulting
company based in Santa Clara, California.

"Because I believe so much in this theory. And I am in a unique
position to communicate an extremely important message. I have
the money, credibility, scientific grounding, and faith."

Firmage has been dubbed the "Fox Mulder of Silicon Valley"
after the hero of the "X-Files" television series, and his own
beliefs seem strangely parallel to the dark mix of UFO contact
and government conspiracy that lie at the show's core.

Backed by his immense resources, Firmage has sought to prove a
variety of theories regarding UFOs, including one which holds
that many recent scientific advances including semiconductors,
fiber optics and lasers can be traced to a purported alien
spaceship crash in Roswell, New Mexico, in 1947 that was covered
up by the government.

"Outright rejection of the evidence without comprehensive
review of the research in print across hundreds of books is
close-minded, unscientific and indeed irresponsible in the
extreme," Firmage wrote in one recent essay.

"It is also quite understandable given decades of government
disinformation which, right or wrong in its genesis and
continuation, was specifically designed to create a 'giggle
factor' surrounding the subject."

Firmage's credentials as a UFO buff are matched by his track
record as a computer industry entrepreneur.

A physics major at the University of Utah, Firmage was 18 when
he formed his first company, Serius, which specialized in
writing computer operating system codes. That was sold to Novell
in 1993 for $24 million, and Firmage served as Novell's vice
president of networking strategy until 1995 when he left to form
USWeb.

That company, which helped companies to develop Internet
strategies, completed a merger with CKS Group Inc. last month to
form a $2.1 billion powerhouse that employs 1,950 people.

During the merger, however, Firmage was edged out as CEO by a
board of directors who did not see eye to eye with him on the
UFO issue. Now, Firmage says, he is leaving the company for good
to pursue his beliefs.

"I want to ensure that the company is not impacted in any
negative way," Firmage told the Chronicle, adding that he was
not pressured to give up his job as chief strategist.

Robert Shaw, who took over as CEO of USWeb/CKS, said Firmage
himself had suggested the move "given the market exposure
associated with his outside interests."

"Joe is a visionary and he should be quite proud of what he
accomplished. This move should demonstrate to the public and the
employees that he's always put the interests of the company
first," Shaw told the newspaper.

Firmage has already laid the groundwork for a campaign to
publicize his UFO beliefs. He has set up the International Space
Science Organization to promote his views, sunk $3 million into
an endeavor dubbed 'Project Kairos' aimed at preparing
humanity for alien contact, and posted a 600-page manifesto,
entitled 'The Truth', on his website (www.thewordistruth.org).

Included in 'The Truth' are new documents from a source
Firmage calls the 'Deep Throat of Cyberspace' which he claims
back up his space alien theories.

One of the documents is a purported 1947 memo from President
Harry Truman to Secretary of Defense James Forrestal that sets
up a secret U.S. government operation dubbed 'Majestic Twelve'
to investigate extraterrestrials.

Another is an alleged June 1947 letter from Albert Einstein and
Robert Oppenheimer to scientist Vannevar Bush giving advice on
how to deal with alien visitors.

Firmage's departure from USWeb/CKS was greeted with a shrug by
many of his Silicon Valley contemporaries, who have long scoffed
at his otherworldly beliefs.

"I've met a bunch of the valley's pioneers, and none of them I
know are aliens," said John McLaughlin, a Silicon Valley
historian. "The valley was built on ingenuity and hard work."

Even Silicon Valley's 'official' UFO organization, the SETI
(Search for Extraterrestrial Intelligence) Institute which is
partly financed by high-tech heavyweights from Microsoft,
Hewlett-Packard and Intel, is not lining up behind Firmage.

"Roswell has repeatedly been discounted as nothing more than a
military experiment," SETI Institute President Frank Drake told
the Chronicle. "It is constantly exploited by obsessive types
who want to believe. If it's not Santa Claus, then it's
aliens."

Firmage, however, was unperturbed by the lack of support from
the high-tech world.

"It's the Flat-Earth society mentality all over again, and I'm
here to prove my theory is real," he told the newspaper.






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 9

                             Re: Fox TV Special

From: Michael Christol <mchristo@mindspring.com>
Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 17:19:09 -0600
Fwd Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 22:15:40 -0500
Subject: Re: Fox TV Special


>From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
>Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 17:05:24 +0000
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Fox TV Special

>Michael responds:

>>It seems that the power system which propels the Beam Ship,
>>resonates on the same frequency as that of the earth.

>>So, this would explain why the vehicle could operate so well
>>within the atmosphere of this planet.

>>Apparently the propulsion system is capable of acclimating
>>itself to the planetary field within which it is operating.

>My response:

>Is this what you believe or what Billy believes?

>Frankly, it all sounds like psuedo-scientific gobbledy-gook. I
>didn't even know that the earth resonated, at all. Do our NASA
>rockets' propulsion systems also resonate the same as the earth.
>Is that why they operate so well within our atmosphere? Is such
>a a thing required in the aerospace industry? I read the words
>but still don't understand.

>Waiting for an explanation I can swallow.

>Roger Evans


Grin...No Roger, that is not why NASA rockets operate the way
the do...grin...

Apparently, you as a musician have forgotten the law of
Harmonics... Everything vibrates at a certain frequency...
Change the frequency of vibration of the object and you change
the object... This has been demonstrated many times....play
musical notes, and this generates a corresponding Color which
can be used in a Kaleido- scopic display of sound and music.

What do you as a musician play, Roger, A Bass Guitar???

Tell me Roger, do you know how to get a Bass player to stop?

Put music in front of him! <g>

If two Bass players are playing do you know how to get one of
them to stop?

Shoot him...<G>

If you are driving down the road, and see a Bass player and a
skunk lying dead in the road, both the product of being hit by
an automobile, what will you notice different between the two
bodies?

There will be skid marks by the skunks body...<g>

I hope you take this in the Spirit in which it is written,
Roger...Just pure clean humor...

REgards, Mike





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 9

                       Re: FOX Hoax Special - Reaction

From: Gildas Bourdais <GBourdais@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 18:34:11 EST
Fwd Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 22:22:48 -0500
Subject: Re: FOX Hoax Special - Reaction


>From: moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com
>Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 10:34:38 +0000
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: FOX Hoax Special - Reaction


>>From: Gildas Bourdais <GBourdais@aol.com>
>>Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 11:07:21 EST
>>Fwd Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 00:47:19 -0500
>>Subject: Re: FOX Hoax Special - Reaction

Just answering your conclusion on Ray Santilli-the-Hoaxer, who
knew  nothing about Roswell, and UFOs in general :

>Do you think Santilli is going to act any differently? Playing
>"dumb" is probably the easiest thing Santilli has to do in
>association with this whole extravaganza.

>He'll never admit anything when there's money to be made.

Apparently, you have an answer to everything.

However, I still fail to understand how a little music producer,
who knew nothing about the Roswell case, and was not interested
in UFOs in general, ponders one day : What about producing a UFO
hoax ? Now suppose that, however crazy it seems to be, he
launches into this risky project. If I were in that position, I
would at least gather some information on the story, in order to
avoid too obvious mistakes. But, no, he has not done that,
apparently. The makes a body very different from the
descriptions of Roswell witnesses (fat belly, muscular, six
fingers...). And the story of the cameraman does not fit either.

Let's stop here: Santilli as a hoaxer is just about as
convincing as Laurel and Hardy. Something else happened.
Something big. Sometime, the wind is going to blow and , as we
say in French: "Ca va d=E9coiffer".

Take care,

Gildas Bourdais





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 9

              Filer's Files 99-#1 MUFON Skywatch Investigations

From: George FilerMajorstar@AOL.COM
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 19:08:34 EST
Fwd Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 22:32:20 -0500
Subject: Filer's Files 99-#1 MUFON Skywatch Investigations

Filer's Files #1-1999,  MUFON Skywatch Investigations
George A. Filer,  MUFON Eastern Director,  Happy New Year
January  8, 1998,   Majorstar@aol.com  (609) 654-0020

UFOs SUDDENLY DISAPPEAR FOR THE HOLIDAYS:

Sightings seemed to disappear in the days before Christmas and
into the New Year.  Apparently even UFO pilots like to home for
the holidays.  We can speculate they are off for the holidays or
over Iraq.  The sudden lack of reports may indicate people are
too busy to notice UFOs or report them.  UFOs may have simply
disappeared from our skies as they also seemed to do last year
at this time.  This apparent absence of UFOs may be an indicator
to understanding the UFO phenomenon.  My files indicate that
December has been a comparatively slow month over several
decades.  I feel more than fifty percent of the sightings can be
explained as aerial misidentifications, natural phenomenon,
various types of secret military aircraft and the like.  There
continues a steady stream of reports throughout most of the
year.  It seems that the reporting of these misidentifications
should continue, even if the real UFOs departed.  In the few
days before Christmas, the only UFO reports I received were an
Utah report and observations of a large V shaped craft over
Bagdad, Iraq during US and UK bombing raids.  These raids were
apparently conducted without contacting Russia resulting in the
serious cooling of international relations between Russia and
the US that could lead us back to the Cold War.  CNN television
carried live shots of the bombing and strange V- shaped craft
above the city.  These reports infer the US military may be
using holographic technology or other sophisticated hardware to
confuse Iraqi antiaircraft gunners.

In reviewing 1998, Georgia had more UFO reports than any other
state.  Early in the year the reports were centered mostly in
the La Grange area of Western Georgia.  The bulk of the sighting
reports then moved towards and north of the Atlanta area.  New
Jersey, New York, Pennsylvania and Ohio followed with the most
reports in the Eastern part of the US.  California, Colorado and
Arizona sent me the second largest group of reports.

Numerous reports are sent to the National Reporting Center,
MUFON, ISUR, Skywatch, TASK, etc.  We attempt to verify these
reports as best as possible and many reports we receive are
never published.  The reader should be aware that verification
of the reports is expensive and time consuming problem. MUFON
investigators like myself are not paid or reimbursed for
numerous phone calls, travel, and time expended to verify the
reports.  I have learned from experience that the Air Force,
police and other organizations will seldom officially verify the
presence of a UFO.  Unofficially, we have received verifications
after getting to know the officials on a friendly basis.  Many
conscientious people who report UFOs do not want their real name
known and hide or refuse to respond to our attempts to contact
them.  I admit that I have occasionally been fooled by people
hoaxing UFO reports.  Fortunately the number of hoaxes is very
small.  I report the siting if it seems authentic. We attempt to
have investigators follow up the reports.  Often those people
with the best sightings are very reluctant to be interviewed.
They often do not want UFO investigators coming to their homes
or giving out their names.  I think this is understandable.
Even under the best conditions it is difficult to have a
meaningful follow up investigation.  We have MUFON investigators
driving hundreds of miles to meet with a witness who fails to
show.  Sometimes they refuse to fill out the papers or sign
their name.  I wish to thank those investigators who have driven
the miles, spent their time and written the reports.  One
investigation done correctly can take days.  MUFON and most UFO
organizations are strictly volunteer with no pay.  Expenses are
not paid, and a great deal of time and effort is spent.  The
investigators deserve a medal, a thank you, and a well done.
They are the heroes of this field.

During 1998, we had a series of hoaxers who claimed to have
inside government information and secrets concerning UFOs.  They
seldom are long time researchers or investigators.  They
suddenly appear making wild claims and erroneous reports.
Unfortunately, it is expensive and very time consuming to weed
out hoaxers.  They cause serious harm to the field and I often
wonder if they are hired or compelled to cause trouble and
confusion.  I fail to understand their motivation.  Little if
any of their information has been proved to be valid.  They
create confusion and hurt serious researchers. Often they have
information that seems accurate at first, but later is
determined to be false.  Often they will later admit lying
despite their previous claims of being a NASA contractor, on the
National Security Council, working inside NORAD and the like.
Anyone who claims to possess startling UFO information should be
able to provide at a minimum there military or government
records, ID cards, college transcripts and similar evidence to
prove their backgrounds and employment.  Those people who
possess insider documents and information should be willing to
produce these documents to respected organizations such as
MUFON, CUFOS, or the Fund for UFO Research. Ufology cannot
expect to gain trust, if people without credentials are
acknowledged without question.  I strongly advise the reader to
seriously question any claims of alien data, inside government
knowledge, classifications above Top Secret and similar
unsubstantiated UFO data.

I have not reported on the release of new MJ-12 documents in
these files, because I am not convinced they are genuine.  How
would one person be able to steal these highly classified
documents from the government?  There are guards, safes and
controls to prevent this from happening.  In many little ways
the documents are vague and seem to contain errors.  For
example, the documents infer they were written in 1951.  The
documents then refer to the Chief of Chaplains as a Major
General Luther Miller who retired in 1949.  This is a small, but
significant error.  Government documents generally contain more
specific and detailed information.  They are written by a team
of people representing various offices.  These documents seem to
be written by one or only a few persons.  The new MJ-12
documents simply do not feel right to me, so I withhold judgment
on their legitimacy.

Later, in these files there is further analysis of photographs
taken by Dr. J. Bond Johnson in General Ramey�s office of the
Roswell crash debris.  This is old news but we now have new
technology that may help prove what happened. There is a
legitimate record of the film kept in storage at the University
of Texas and Dr. Johnson.  The analysis may lead to an
unsatisfactory conclusion, but at least we know the photographs
are authentic.  Many abductees and military personnel have
reported seeing similar strange symbols on board alien craft.
In fact, some of the latest technology is similar to certain
aspects of the debris.  You are invited to help and judge for
yourself.  Therefore, I will continue to cover this story.

To those who desire to learn the truth about UFOs, I encourage
you to read information from the respected leaders in the field
such as Richard H. Hall's "Perspectives" column.  It's published
monthly in the "MUFON UFO Journal" For example Richard states:


The Art Bell piece [published in the November 1998, issue of the "MUFON
UFO Journal"] makes me think about how the sociological aspects of the UFO
movement distract from the physical science aspects.  News media gleefully
report on the colorful personalities, the more paranoid the better, but where
is their reporting on the potentially important airline pilot sightings of the
past few years?  Obviously, Bell is viewed by the media as representative of
the UFO field, even as guru for ufologists.  Well, count me out.  Let's stick
to facts, logic, and science.  Thanks to Bob Soetebier and the December �98
MUFON Journal page 18.

Last week I credited Victor Kean with an Edmonton, UK sighting,
it apparently originated with Tony Spurrier, Project FT's web
page to whom we wish to thank.

UTAH

PARK CITY: Manny Fernandez writes and asks ?  Did anyone see 3
UFOs on December 23, 1998, in Utah?  It was a clear night, at
9:15 PM, when my wife and I saw three bright white lights, in a
triangular formation, silently streak across the sky at a
tremendous speed over the Wasatch Mountain range, at first in a
straight line and then make a left turn and recede until they
disappeared, over the span of about 5 seconds.  Did anyone else
see this? Thanks to Manny Fernandez at manny1@ix.netcom.com

NEW DATA ON GENERAL RAMEY�S ROSWELL DEBRIS PHOTOGRAPHS:

Neil Morris and J. Bond Johnson and the Roswell Photo
Interpretation Team (RPIT) continue to update their findings.
RPIT using state of the art enhancement techniques, have taken a
close up look at the photographs that J. Bond Johnson shot on
July 8, 1947.  The following is: A discussion of what the debris
in these photos shows or doesn't show, links to these enhanced
photos and related Web pages.  What in my opinion is the MOST
promising in all of this, is a discussion of the analysis of a
MESSAGE General Ramey is holding in his hand in EACH OF THE FOUR
PHOTOS JOHNSON TOOK OF GENERAL RAMEY some of these photos.  This
could REALLY provide the answers everyone's been looking for.
NOTE THAT IN THE FIRST TWO PICTURES TAKEN OF GENERAL RAMEY ALONE
AND THE FIRST ONE TAKEN WITH COLONEL DUBOSE.  THE MESSAGE IS
FOLDED AND RAMEY COULD NOT BE READING THE MESSAGE.  HOWEVER, IN
THE LAST PICTURE TAKEN BY JOHNSON RAMEY HAS FOLDED THE PAGE INTO
THIRDS AND APPEARS TO BE READING THE LAST PARAGRAPH OF THE
MESSAGE EVEN WHILE THE PHOTO SHOOT IS IN PROGRESS. AN ARGUMENT
CAN BE MADE THAT THIS MESSAGE WAS THE GENERAL'S "MARCHING
ORDERS" FROM HIS SUPERIORS IN THE AAF SINCE IT  INCLUDED MENTION
OF "VICTIMS OF THE CRASH"  BEING TAKEN TO FORT WORTH, TEX --  A
HIGHLY UNUSUAL PROCEDURE FOR VICTIMS OF AN AIRCRAFT CRASH -- AND
ALSO  "WEATHER BALLOONS" -- WHICH COULD HAVE BEEN ORDERING HIM
TO ISSUE THE "WEATHER  BALLOON COVER-UP" STORY TO "KILL" THE
PRESS' GROWING INTEREST IN THIS BREAKING  STORY.  Some of these
photos, now housed at the University of Texas at Arlington, show
debris spread out on the floor of GENERAL RAMEY'S office at the
headquarters of the 8th Army Air Force, Fort Worth, Texas, now
known as Carswell AFB.  A spirited debate has been going on for
some time now regarding exactly what the debris in these photos
actually is.  At the time, and AFTER Dr.Johnson took his photos,
Brigadier General Roger Ramey, Commanding General of the 8th
Army Air Force, held a press briefing (THERE IS NO EVIDENCE
ANYWHERE THAT THERE WAS ANY PRESS BRIEFING OTHER THAN THE BRIEF
CONTACT BETWEEN RAMEY AND JOHNSON IN RAMEY'S OFFICE AND RAMEY'S
PERSONAL RADIO BROADCAST LIVE FROM THE "WBAP" STUDIOS. NO KNOWN
MEMBER OF THE PRESS EVER FILED A STORY AND NO OTHER PHOTOGRAPHER
EVER PRODUCED A PHOTOGRAPH OF THE DEBRIS DISPLAYED IN RAMEY'S
OFFICE -- OTHER THAN THE SINGLE PHOTO OF WEATHER OFFICER NEWTON
WHICH WAS TAKEN AFTER JOHNSON DEPARTED THE OFFICE AND WHICH WAS
DISTRIBUTED TO THE MEDIA BY RAMEY'S STAFF TOO LATE TO RUN IN
MORNING PAPERS ON JULY 9, 1947.)  General Ramey went on WBAP
radio announcing the debris in the office was nothing more than
the remains of a Rawin Radar Reflector that had been carried
aloft by a weather balloon, and crashed on a ranch outside of
Roswell.  This, he claimed, was the debris brought to him by
Major Jesse Marcel, which earlier that day had been mistakenly
reported as debris from a crashed "Flying Disc" WHICH HAD BEEN
"CAPTURED" BY THE AAF.

All of the noted Roswell researchers and authors over the years
have presented evidence supporting the theory that acting on
orders from Major General Clements McMullen in Washington, D.
C., General Ramey had the real debris Marcel brought with him
switched with the Rawin debris.  (THIS IS INACCURATE. ACTUALLY
ONLY A FEW AUTHORS EVER MENTIONED ANY DEBRIS "SWITCH."  THIS
CLAIM WAS BASED ENTIRELY ON AN AMBIGUOUS STATEMENT MADE BY MAJOR
JESSE MARCEL, SR. TO AUTHOR WILLIAM MOORE MORE THAN 40 YEARS
AFTER THE INCIDENT THAT THE PHOTOS OF MARCEL WERE MADE WITH THE
REAL WRECKAGE BUT THAT LATER PHOTOS WERE OF SUBSTITUTED DEBRIS.
WITH THE DETAILED PHOTO INTERPRETATION BY RPIT IT IS GENERALLY
AGREED THAT THE DISPLAYED DEBRIS IS THE SAME IN THE RAMEY,
DUBOSE AND MARCEL PHOTOS.  HOWEVER, IT APPEARS THAT SOME OF THE
BEAMS WHICH INCLUDE RAISED SYMBOLS AND OTHER ANOMALOUS OBJECTS
WHICH WOULD NOT BE FOUND IN A WEATHER BALLOON OR RAWIN RADAR
DEVICE AND WHICH ARE SEEN IN THE RAMEY, DUBOSE AND MARCEL SHOTS
ARE NOT SEEN IN THE SINGLE NEWTON SHOT MADE LATER.  General
DuBose, shortly before his death, in a video interview makes no
mention of a "switch" of debris.  He confirms General McMullen�s
orders to put out the "cover story" of the weather balloon to
get the press off the AF's back.  This was a deliberate effort
to get the press off the AF's back, and apparently cover up the
fact they had indeed recovered a crashed "Flying Disc" near
Roswell.  In other words the press release that initiated from
the Roswell AAF got out before the Pentagon had a chance to
react.  Thus, this was damage control.  At least this is one
commonly held theory.  RPIT (Roswell Photo Interpretation Team),
believe their photo enhancements show AT LEAST some of the
debris material is not part of the Rawin target material.  In
other words original crash debris, or at least SOMETHING else is
mixed in.  Therefore, they proclaim General Ramey is not guilty
of having switched the debris material.  Neil Morris writes, At
first I had to agree that there could be a mixture of debris to
be seen in the photographs, but I now have to say that I am
moving more towards the thought that little if any of the debris
seen in the images is from a radar target or that, due to items
such as "buttons" being found on the "balloon envelope"!, a
balloon.  The large foil panels are said to be the foil-backed
cardboard of the radar reflectors, in the images of Major Marcel
look VERY closely at his fingers as he holds the foil, look how
incredibly THIN the foil sheets are.  In my eyes far thinner
than a foil- cardboard sandwich.  Also notice how the sheet is
flexed, again this doesn't seem to be how I would imagine, or
have seen, a cardboard sheet flex, bend and RIPPLE as these
sheets have. 1.  It is accepted as fact that Major Marcel
brought with him on the flight from Roswell to Ft. Worth actual
material from the Brazel debris field.  IT IS UNCONTROVERTED
THAT MARCEL UNWRAPPED AT LEAST SOME OF THIS DEBRIS AND DISPLAYED
IT ON THE FLOOR OF GENERAL RAMEY'S OFFICE. (SOME ACCOUNTS STATE
THAT THAT MUCH OF THE DEBRIS REMAINED ON THE B-29 AND WAS TAKEN
ON TO WRIGHT FIELD IN OHIO.)  THERE ARE AT LEAST TWO UNOPENED
PACKAGES SHOWN ON THE FLOOR NEAR THE DEBRIS DISPLAY SEEN IN THE
PHOTOS TAKEN IN RAMEY'S OFFICE.  At least 1 "plant stem" can be
seen with the debris indicating the debris was most likely
gathered "outdoors." 2.  It is accepted as fact that Rawin Radar
reflector material IS the predominant material in the photos.
THIS IS INCORRECT.  A REVIEW OF THE RESULTS OF RPIT MEMBERS'
PHOTO INTERPRETATION OF THE RAMEY OFFICE PHOTOS AS POSTED ON THE
WEB INDICATES THAT THERE IS NOTHING SEEN IN THE PHOTOS WHICH IS
FOUND IN EITHER A WEATHER BALLOON OR RAWIN RADAR DEVICE.  THE
STRANGEST FINDINGS ARE THE VARIOUS SYMBOLS -- WHICH APPEAR TO BE
BOTH "PRINTED" AND CARVED IN BAS RELIEF -- DISPLAYED THROUGHOUT
ALL THE PHOTOS.  THE FOUR EXISTING ORIGINAL NEGATIVES AS EXPOSED
BY JOHNSON ON JULY 8, 1947, HAVE BEEN IN CONTINUOUS CUSTODY
EITHER OF THE STAR- TELEGRAM OR THE UNIVERSITY OF TEXAS SINCE
THAT TIME.

On first "impressions" just "glancing" at the photographs the
debris MAY LOOK LIKE weather balloon debris, if you look deeper
into the images this impression quickly disperses.  Some of the
group do go with the idea of a mixture, as I have explained
above I personally now think there may be very little if any
balloon/reflector debris in the pictures.  It's not a black and
white point more a sliding scale, and towards which end of the
scale you stand.  Unless and until it can be proven beyond any
doubt Non-Rawin material is mixed in the debris, in my opinion
the entire debate is moot.  THE RPIT MEMBERS HAVE MADE NO CLAIMS
AS TO THE ETIOLOGY OF THEIR FINDINGS BUT HAVE INVITED THE WORLD
TO SPECULATE AS TO WHAT COULD BE THE ORIGIN OF THESE STRANGE
SYMBOLS.  SO FAR NO ONE HAS OFFERED ANY SERIOUS SUGGESTION.  No
one can prove absolutely the photos are of the very same
material Marcel brought with him from Roswell.  BUT THERE IS NO
EVIDENCE THAT THIS WAS NOT THE MATERIAL THAT MARCEL COLLECTED ON
THE ROSWELL RANCH.  Bill Moore claims Major Marcel told him he
was photographed with "some of the less interesting debris" or
words to that effect.  Dubose maintained there was no switch of
debris.

Neil Morris mentions there are the supporting fact of "plant
stems" in the debris photographs.  Without this proof on when
the Rawin material may or may not have been substituted for the
real crash material, everything else is speculation, conjecture,
and opinion.  It doesn't matter if Ramey ordered the switch on
his own, or acted on orders of General McMullen.  What's
important is what's shown in the photos!  The photo's tell the
same story, "unchanged", as they did 50 years ago on the day
they were taken, they are in effect a little time machine
allowing us to peek in through a window in Ramey's office just
at that moment when Bond's flash went off.  HERE IS WHAT IS
CLAIMED TO BE IN THE MEMO IN RAMEY�S HAND SO FAR: The Crest in
the Upper Left Hand corner of the message appears to be a cradle
phone circa 1947 which could indicate that this was an official
phone message.  Niel Morris says his interpretation of this
differs, He has outlined what he thinks this feature is on his
web site, an insignia of some type.

The time of receipt appears to be 1533 (which coincides with the
RPIT time  line precisely).  He only "suggested" these hand
written numbers "might" be a time, but it would fit the proposed
time-line if they were.   There is agreement among two local
RPIT members (Ron Regehr and Debbie Stock)  as to the following
words:   AS THE ... 4HRS THE VICTIMS OF THE ... YOU FORWARDED TO
THE ... AT FORT  WORTH, TEX. ... THE "CRASH" "STORY" .... FOR
0984 ACKNOWLEDGES ... EMERGENCY  POWERS ARE NEEDED SITE TWO SW
MAGDALENA, NMEX ... SAFE TALK ... FOR MEANING OF  STORY AND
MISSION ... WEATHER BALLOONS SENT ON THE . AND LAND . ROVER
CREWS... (SIGNED) TEMPLE.   OTHER RPIT MEMBERS CONFIRM AT LEAST
SOME OF THE KEY WORDS AS SET FORTH ABOVE.

I have listed below the Web sites where you can view the
enhancements and decide for yourself.  If, as most people who
have taken the trouble to view the "message" agree the text on
the message IS typewritten and therefore on a "fixed grid"
layout of characters, some of this EARLY interpretation cannot
be correct, the letter count of the words just don't fit in the
grid, but on a number of "key" words all are agreed, i.e.
"VICTIMS" and "STORY".

Just these 2 words suggest both an event involving deaths, and
possibly of the requirement for a "STORY". But it is still early
days in the task of recovering the text from the "message" and I
don't think the task is going to be as simple and easy as some
people have thought.  The characters in the "message" are at the
very limit of the image resolving capabilities the original
negatives and as some of the text areas have sustained damage.
It is quite likely some of the words may never be resolved
conclusively, of course the carbon copy might still be lurking
somewhere in the great Government machine.

(http://www.ufomind.com/people/j/johnsonj/ (about J. Bond Johnson)
http://adm2.ph.man.ac.uk/ (Main Link to Debris and Memo)
http://adm2.ph.man.ac.uk/ftw-pics/index.htm (Ramey Office Photos)
http://adm2.ph.man.ac.uk/ftw-pics/new-1/index.htm (Memo)
http://adm2.ph.man.ac.uk/ftw-pics/new-1/rmysignl.htm (Memo)
http://adm2.ph.man.ac.uk/ftw-pics/download/index.htm
(2.5 meg image scan a BIGfile)
http://www.abduct.com/aaer/n52.htm (Symbols In Debris)
http://www.abduct.com/aaer/n53.htm (Symbols In Debris)
http://www.artbell.com/jbjohnson.html (Ramey Photos & Symbols)
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Hollow/8827/ramey.html (Memo)
http://www.abcfield.force9.co.uk/rpit/letter.html.  (Thanks to RPIT and Dr.
Bond Johnson)

GET THE BEST AND HELP UFO RESEARCH, IT COULD SAVE YOU MONEY As a
special aid to our readers, we can help you obtain the best real
estate experts in your area at no cost to you.  Make sure you
have a top notch agent, to buy or sell your home often your
biggest investment.  We provide free relocation information and
consulting services from the largest and most respected firms.
If you are planning to sell or buy a home and would like a top
flight real estate agent give me a call at 609 654-0020 or
E-mail me at Majorstar@aol.com. Please send your name, phone
number, address, price range and location to move.

MUFON JOURNAL For more detailed investigative reports subscribe
by writing to 103 Oldtowne Road, Sequin, TX 78155-4099 or E-mail
Mufon@aol.com. Filer's Files Copyright 1998 by George A. Filer,
all rights reserved.  Readers may post items from the Files on
their Websites provided that they credit the newsletter and its
editor by name and list the date of issue that the item
appeared.  Send your letters to George Filer at
Majorstar@aol.com.  If you wish to keep your name confidential
please so state.





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 9

                   Re: UFO Cults - A research question...

From: Tim Brigham - Devil's Advocate <devilsad@ksinc.net>
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 17:48:34 -0600
Fwd Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 22:36:00 -0500
Subject: Re: UFO Cults - A research question...


>From: Scott Carr <sardonica@erols.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: UFO Cults - A research question...
>Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 12:51:14 -0800

>I am beginning to devote a great deal of time to studying the
>cult phenomenon

<snip>

Since Scott brings this up, for quite some time I have been
searching for info on the Solar Temple group.  From what little
info I have been able to find, they apparently held some UFO
beliefs.  Kal Korff even mentioned this briefly on the recent
FOX special, but has not yet replied to my request for
documentation/references for the statement. All of the
information I have been able to find on this subject has been
second or thirdhand, and I have had no luck finding any original
news reports or other sources of information which detail the
specifics.

Jacques Vallee has stated that French news reports regarding the
cult reported that initiation into the higher levels involved
rituals in which contact with alien beings was supposed to
occur.  Dr. Vallee has also stated that in the home of one the
cult members, sophisticated holographic equipment was found,
possibly used to hoax cult members into believing that they had
contacted space aliens.

These are the sorts of comments I have attempted to follow up,
but sadly, I have not been able to find any more information on
the topic which would be helpful for research purposes.

I am hoping that someone on this list may be knowledgeable about
this particular subject or knows of resources I may find
valuable. My thanks,

Tim Brigham
devilsad@ksinc.net


)+(
www.ksinc.net/~devilsad/ufo.htm The Devil's Advocate
www.ksinc.net/~devilsad/ring.htm Operation MindPhuck
"Better to go hungry than to feast on lies."
)+(





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 9

                    Mysterious Circle Discovered in Miami

From: Dr. Virgilio Sanchez-Ocejo <pharaoh@web2000.net>
Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 18:27:51 -0800
Fwd Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 22:41:54 -0500
Subject: Mysterious Circle Discovered in Miami


Archaeologist have discovered a prehistoric circle
(38-foot-diameter) cut into the limestone bedrock in downtown
Miami. The structure looks like an astronomical observatory,
calendar or almanac(?). Also the archaeologists found two
primitive axes produced by Maya civilization.

We have posted the Press Release and the Miami Herald article,
with photos and maps. We will visit the site, by appointment,
next week and will keep you pending development.

Visit: Miami UFO Reporter
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Corridor/1341/index.html

Virgilio Sanchez-Ocejo
Miami UFO Center






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 9

                       Re: FOX Hoax Special - Reaction

From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 20:18:17 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 22:46:09 -0500
Subject: Re: FOX Hoax Special - Reaction


>From: moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com
>Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 10:34:38 +0000
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: FOX Hoax Special - Reaction

>>From: Gildas Bourdais <GBourdais@aol.com>
>>Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 11:07:21 EST
>>Fwd Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 00:47:19 -0500
>>Subject: Re: FOX Hoax Special - Reaction

<snip>

>Do you think Santilli is going to act any differently? Playing
>"dumb" is probably the easiest thing Santilli has to do in
>association with this whole extravaganza.

>He'll never admit anything when there's money to be made.


From my dealings with Santilli I think it is perfectly possible
that somebody dug this film off a shelf and sold it to him to
take advantage of all the noise about Roswell. Remember that
Santilli originally named his company Roswell Footage Limited.
Then suddenly the supposed cameraman said it wasn't Roswell at
all but Socorro and in early June, 1947.. Santilli is definitely
an exploiter, but not necessarily the contractor for the project.

As I Pointed out in TOP SECRET/MAJIC, everything he told me in
our first conversation was a lie. Not a good start.

Stan Friedman





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 9

                    Re: UFO Cults - A research question..

From: Tom Carey <TCarey1947@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 19:28:42 EST
Fwd Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 23:07:49 -0500
Subject: Re: UFO Cults - A research question..

>From: Scott Carr <sardonica@erols.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: UFO Cults - A research question...
>Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 12:51:14 -0800

>I am beginning to devote a great deal of time to studying the
>cult phenomenon

Although I disagree strongly with their conclusions regarding
the Roswell case, you might check out the 1997 book, 'UFO Crash
At Roswell: Genesis Of A Modern Myth', by the Brandeis
University anthropologists, Benson Salor and Charles Ziegler
wherein they discuss the evolution of myths and cults, etc.,
especially with regard to the UFO phenomena.






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 9

                    Re: The Credibility of Edgar Fouche'

From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@connectmmic.net>
Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 19:38:22 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 23:11:30 -0500
Subject: Re: The Credibility of Edgar Fouche'


>From: Tim Matthews <matthews@zetnet.co.uk>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: The Credibility of Edgar Fouche'
>Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 23:10:30 -0000

>>From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>To: UFO UpDates Subscribers:;
>>Subject: UFO UpDate: The Credibility of Edgar Fouche'
>>Date: 09 January 1999 06:17

>Not slander, just a request for some proof.....

>Do you or your husband have a view on Senator Moynihans' recent
>comments that scientific advances cannot be hidden for more than
>a few years??

Nice one Tim,

Is Senator Moynihans the last of his family?

Please remove your foot from your mouth.  I have asked you, on
this List, a couple of times, a few pointed questions based
"specifically" on this secret hidden technology paradox inherent
to your research-claims: you never answered the damn questions.

Surprised - well, not really, rather pissed of - when you take
this rabbit out of the hat:

>NO! Just to ask serious and detailed questions about his
>"evidence", which by any standards can best be described as
>hearsay.

In order to refresh your memory...

>Fwd Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 15:31:56 -0500
>Subject: Re: Project SIGN Research Release

<snip>

>Just re-routing this message I sent you on the list on the
>10-01-1998 and to which you did not bother to respond.  The
>thread was:

>The New Nazi-ET Lie?

>Tim,

>What I can't figure out is how come silent-running vehicles,
>invisible to radar, designed for atmospheric and space flight,
>capable of hovering and stationary and vertical flight, that
>reach tremendous speeds and acceleration (from 0 to 1500 knots
>in seconds), are able to outpace any known conventional craft
>and are almost invulnerable to enemy attacks have been kept in
>the cupboard for more than 50 years ?

>Do you have any incentive on that ?

<snip>

Do you realize that, in this society of rubber relationships,
the extent of our one-way link could be considered an affair?

Cheers,

And keep your teeth tight,

Serge Salvaille





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 9

                            ELFIS ISSUE 8 part 2

From: Stephen Miles Lewis <Ufoelf@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 20:09:22 EST
Fwd Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 23:39:38 -0500
Subject: ELFIS ISSUE 8 part 2


ELFIS LIST - http://www.sdgweb.com/~elfin

Howdy all,

Busy busy this beginning of 1999. Thus this installment
is particularly small however I think you will enjoy
this particular article.

ELFIS author Mr. Baggins' has written of his personal
experiences with Austin's own possible magickal/cryptozoological
Boggy Creek Monster. Some of you may remember the cheesy
"documentary" Legend of Boggy Creek which appeared in the
seventies chronicling the reports of a BigFootesque Biped in
Fouke, Arkansas.

It is a lengthy article exploring the experiences of my
neighbors here on Boggy Creek in Austin, Texas. On the same page
are numerous links discovered in researching the many angles to
these encounters: tales of escaped, rampaging chimps, Fouke
monster tales, other Texas connections, as well as information
on the mystique of bogs and their boogeymen.

Explore this article here:

http://www.sdgweb.com/~elfin/ELFOL8/e8bbeheab6.htm

As I said, this is a small installment with more to follow to
fill up the Winter 1998/99 ELFIS ISSUE.

I will be interviewed by Robert Lasron on his next CARTOON
PLEROMA radio show. Past guest have included: myself, Paul
Rydeen, Greg Bishop (EXCLUDED MIDDLE magazine), Terence McKenna,
Fred Alan Wolf, Kenn Thomas, and many others.

So, if you're in the Irvine California area this January 11th,
Monday night tune into the airwaves of KUCI 88.9 FM. Or if you
have a PC you can tune into the on-line webcast here at 9pm
Central/7pm Pacific:

http://www.kuci.org

Happy New Year!

http://www.sdgweb.com/~elfin

mailto:ufoelf@aol.com






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 9

               Australia Fears Invasion Of UFO Doomsday Cults

From: Stig Agermose <Stig_Agermose@online.pol.dk>
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 04:31:17 +0100 (MET)
Fwd Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 23:35:09 -0500
Subject: Australia Fears Invasion Of UFO Doomsday Cults


[List only]

Source: Australian News Network,

http://www.theaustralian.com.au:80/national/4226918.h
tm

Stig

***

Doom cults Australian alert
By CHRIS GRIFFITH

10jan99

DOOMSDAY cults will head to Australia for "the end of the world"
as Year 2000 approaches, cult watchers warn.

They say Australia should expect a surge of religious extremism
and even terrorism.

Federal and state police and other agencies stepped up cult
monitoring last week after Israeli police arrested 14 members of
a US-based doomsday cult in Jerusalem.

Acting Prime Minister Tim Fischer told The Sunday Mail
yesterday: "It's getting crazier month by month in the lead-up
to the new millennium."

But he was confident Australian authorities could "pick the
loonies and deal with them".

AFP spokesman Terry Brown said federal police would act if
national security was threatened, but their hands were tied
until the cults broke the law.

Israeli authorities claim the Concerned Christians cult hoped to
trigger the second coming of Jesus Christ and Armageddon by
massacring people at holy sites across Israel.

However, Queensland cult specialist Jan Groenveld said the
doomsday merchants were more likely to come to Australia.

"If it's a biblical cult, they may go to Israel, but eastern,
Nostradamus-based and UFO-based cults believe the southern
hemisphere, in particular Australia, may suffer less or later
damage as the end approaches."

Cult leaders had predicted humanity would be annihilated after
nuclear warfare, natural disasters such as floods, asteroid and
comet strikes, economic ruin, and civil chaos sparked by the Y2K
bug.

Mr Brown said in some cases, such as the Heavens Gate cult, the
group had acted legally until the final moment when they
committed suicide en masse.

In cases like these, police had little legal leeway to act.

Mr Fischer said he personally had closely monitored the
activities of the Concerned Christians.

"It could become a worry (here). I have followed with interest
the developments in Jerusalem.

"I hopeful violent cults overseas won't be mirrored in
Australia."

Mrs Groenveld's theory is backed by Garry Greenwood, once the
second highest ranking official of the Mahikari movement in
Australia.

He is an expert on Mahikari and its deadly sister cult Aum
Shinri Kyo, which was behind the 1995 Tokyo subway nerve gas
attack that killed 12 people.

"Both sects believed an Armageddon war would soon annihilate
Japan and much of the world, and that they needed to establish
safe havens in the southern hemisphere, which is why they
ventured to Australia," he said.

In 1996, Mahikari was reported to have 10 centres and about 2000
active members in Australia.

Aum Shinri Kyo also had bought a 200,000ha sheep grazing
property, Banjawarn, about 640km north-east of Perth where a
loud explosion and fireball event were recorded in 1993.

Observers claimed the cult used the property as a training
ground for its terrorism activities.

But low-key, home- grown doomsday cults in ordinary suburban
houses were as much a concern, Mrs Groenveld said.

One called The Group, on Brisbane's southside, claimed to be
"God's executioners", alert and ready to rid the scourge of
humanity.

"They have a stash of guns they continually move and the leader
himself has a samurai sword."







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 9

                   In New Discoveries, a Planetary Mystery

From: Steven L. Wilson Sr <Ndunlks@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 22:30:38 EST
Fwd Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 23:58:02 -0500
Subject: In New Discoveries, a Planetary Mystery


In New Discoveries, a Planetary Mystery

By John Noble Wilford


AUSTIN, Tex. -- In a stunning run of discoveries over the last
three years, astronomers have observed 17 nearby stars that
appear to be orbited by planets more or less the size of
Jupiter. The most recent detection of a planet around a star
other than the Sun was described here Saturday.

But while astronomers continue the search for more such objects,
they have now seen enough to be puzzled by an emerging pattern:
None of these extrasolar planetary systems seems to resemble the
Sun's family of planets. Is this an observational fluke? Or is
the solar system a cosmic oddball?

At a meeting of the American Astronomical Society, scientists
reviewed the mystifying evidence. All of these objects are found
in orbits much closer to their parent stars than Jupiter, the
solar system's giant, is to the Sun. Astrophysicists could only
speculate how such large planets, ranging in mass from one-half
to 10 times the mass of Jupiter, can orbit so close to a star
and survive what must be destabilizing gravitational stresses.

Other studies reveal that many of the stars orbited by large
bodies typically have two to three times more heavy elements
than exist in the Sun. And except for the extrasolar planets
extremely close to their host stars, most of these objects
appear to travel in orbits unlike those of planets around the
Sun.

"For the first time, we have enough extrasolar planets out there
to do some comparative study," said Dr. Geoffrey W. Marcy of San
Francisco State University, who is the leading discoverer of
these objects. "We are realizing that most of the Jupiter-like
planets far from their stars tool around in elliptical orbits,
not circular orbits, which are the rule in our solar system."

Dr. Marcy noted that 9 of the 17 detected extrasolar planets
sweep relatively close to their stars and then swing far out
again, giving an oval shape to their orbital paths. The others
travel in more circular orbits, presumably because they are even
closer to their stars and are regulated by gravitational tides.
One of these is only four million miles from its star and takes
only 4.2 days to complete its revolution, or "year."

An elliptical orbit was observed for the most recently
discovered extrasolar planet, around the star HD 168443 in the
constellation Serpens, the Snake. This new planet, Dr. Marcy
reported Saturday, orbits its star once every 58 days at an
average distance that is nearer to the star than Mercury, with
an 88-day orbit, is to the Sun.

The eccentricity of the newly discovered planet -- the degree
that it deviates from a circular path -- is 0.54, about 10 times
the eccentricity in the orbit of most solar system planets.

Theorists have proposed several possible explanations for such
eccentric orbits. When enough large planets orbit a star in
proximity, perhaps they generate a gravitational slingshot that
projects the planets into elongated orbits. Or perhaps a passing
star has upset the delicate balance of these planetary systems.

In some cases, the planets could be perturbed because their star
is part of a binary system, where two stars are locked in
gravitational embrace.

If elliptical orbits appear to be common for other planets as
massive as Jupiter, astronomers are wondering what different
circumstances in the solar system keep mighty Jupiter and Saturn
in circular orbits. It is not a trivial question, for the
emergence of life on Earth probably depended on the answer.

Jupiter-size bodies plunging toward and away from their stars
are likely to sweep aside smaller worlds, sending them crashing
into the star or flying out of orbit into interstellar space.
Current technology is incapable of detecting Earth-size planets
around other stars, but they almost certainly could not exist
near their star's warmth in a system so unsettled by large
planets in wrecking orbits, Dr. Marcy said.

"The implications are also profound for the search for
extraterrestrial life," Dr. Marcy said.

Yet of the all the Sun-like stars that have been studied so far
by planet seekers, only 5 percent have been found to have
Jupiter-mass planets in such eccentric orbits. Taking an
optimistic view, Dr. Marcy said that leaves 95 percent of stars
that may be free of these influences and could harbor habitable
planets.

Although nearly all astronomers agree that these detected
objects are extrasolar planets, a few holdouts are not so sure.
They have raised the possibility that these are brown dwarfs,
objects that formed like stars but lacked sufficient mass to
support nuclear fusion in their cores.

Dr. William D. Cochran, an astronomer at the University of Texas
here, said that too many of the objects had masses comparable to
Jupiter's for them to be brown dwarfs. But at the meeting, he
cautioned that they may not be planets, particularly because so
many of them have eccentric orbits and are so close to their
stars. They might be some new type of object unlike anything in
the solar system.

"To find a new type of object would be an extremely exciting
result," Dr. Cochran said. "Right now, we are still going to
call them 'planets,' even though they may really be something
slightly different."



Sunday, January 10, 1999





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 10

                               Re: Joe Firmage

From: Rebecca Fouche' <FMa1@email.msn.com>
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 21:51:13 -0600
Fwd Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 00:15:54 -0500
Subject: Re: Joe Firmage

>From: Joe Firmage <jfirmage@uswebcks.com>
>Subject: Update
>Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 13:36:49 -0800
>To updates@globalserve.net

>Hello everyone,

>Some of you may have heard the news that I have chosen to step
>aside from my position as Chief Strategist at USWeb.

<snip>

Dear Mr. Firmage,

I am following your ascent in the world of Ufology with great
interest.  My instincts tell me that a person of your stature
would not make the decision you have made without careful
consideration and solid motivation, therefore I wish you the
best and champion your efforts.  In addition, I pray that you
can add a voice of reason in this mercurial and emotionally
charged field.  Be prepared to have your every move and action
scrutinized, as, unfortunately, some who lay claim to the title
"UFOlogist" take themselves all too seriously and appear to make
a career of denigrating their fellow seekers.  Fortunately,
others are dedicated to the higher pursuits within the cause;
some of the finest people I have known are in this field.

Best wishes, and I will eagerly look forward to your future
revelations.

Rebecca Fouche' President, Fouche' Media Associates Section
Leader, Politics of UFOs, MSN UFO Community
http://fouchemedia.com

------

<If in the pursuit of his dreams a man sells his soul,
the quest becomes his master, and he, a slave.> <A man is
defined by what he defends.>





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 10

                     San Francisco Chronicle On Firmage

From: Stig Agermose <Stig_Agermose@online.pol.dk>
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 05:16:12 +0100 (MET)
Fwd Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 00:20:09 -0500
Subject: San Francisco Chronicle On Firmage


[List only]

Source: San Francisco Chronicle. URL for this printer-friendly
version,

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=3D/chronicl
e/archive/1999/01/09/MN19158.DTL&type=3Dprintable

Stig

***

CEO Quits Job Over UFO Views

Advances in technology a gift of aliens, Silicon
Valley pioneer believes

Jon Swartz, Chronicle Staff Writer
Saturday, January 9, 1999
=A91998 San Francisco Chronicle

URL:

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=3D/chron
icle/archive/1999/01/09/MN19158.DTL

*

Joe Firmage -- the Fox Mulder of Silicon Valley -- resigned
yesterday from the firm he founded so he could promote his
belief that many of today's high-tech advancements, including
semiconductors, fiber optics and lasers, came from aliens.

Firmage is the 28-year-old founder of USWeb, a high-profile
Internet consulting firm that merged recently with the Net
marketing firm CKS to form a 1,950-person public company worth
$2.1 billion. Clients of Santa Clara-based USWeb/CKS include
Apple Computer, Levi Strauss and Harley-Davidson.

In November, shortly before the merger, Firmage was pressured to
step down as CEO of USWeb and take the lesser title of chief
strategist because of his campaign to prove the existence of
UFOs.

Yesterday, Firmage said he resigned as chief strategist because
he believed that continuing publicity, including this article,
would damage the company's reputation.

"I want to ensure the company is not impacted in any negative
way," Firmage said. "I do not want to put myself in a position
of compromising its day-to-day perception. I was not pressured"
to resign.

Robert Shaw, CEO of USWeb/CKS, said, "Given the market exposure
associated with his outside interests, Joe suggested that we
would all be better served if he didn't have an official role
with the company. Joe is a visionary and he should be quite
proud of what he accomplished. This move should demonstrate to
the public and the employees that he's always put the interests
of the company first."

Firmage said he is willing to risk his career to further
publicize his theories, one of which is that many high-tech
advancements can be traced to a purported alien spaceship crash
in Roswell, N.M., in 1947.

According to Firmage, government officials recovered materials
from the spacecraft and reverse-engineered them to develop many
of today's high-tech breakthroughs.

Like Mulder, the intrepid, erudite government agent on "The X-
Files," Firmage also believes that the truth is being covered up
by the military-industrial complex.

Firmage has published his many ideas in a 600-page manifesto,
titled "The Truth," on his Web site (www.thewordistruth.org).
"This is certainly the most important news event in 2,000
years," he said.

Firmage said his theories grew out of a year's worth of research
on government documents and an alleged personal encounter with
an other-worldly being.

In a chapter from his manifesto, titled "My Contact," Firmage
recounts an incident that he said occurred one morning at his
Los Gatos home, shortly before USWeb went public in 1997.

"A remarkable being, clothed in brilliant white light, appeared
hovering over my bed in my room," Firmage writes.

"He looked rather annoyed, and asked: 'Why have you called me
here?'

"I answered with a moment's pause: 'I want to travel in space.'
This was always my lifelong dream, and it naturally came out in
a state of semi-waking thought.

"He chuckled skeptically, paused, and asked: 'Why should you be
granted such an opportunity?'

"I responded without hesitation, in the only way I could have
responded given my life to that time: 'Because I'm willing to
die for it!' "

Nothing in Firmage's background would suggest any out-of-
the-ordinary beliefs. Clean-cut, polite and articulate, he was
raised in a modest Salt Lake City home and attended the
University of Utah as a physics major. Although fascinated by
science fiction as a teenager, he also described himself as "a
skeptical scientist."

By the age of 18, he had founded his first company, Serius, a
pioneer in object-oriented programming tools. That company was
sold to Novell in 1993 for $24 million, and Firmage became
Novell's vice president of networking strategy until 1995. He
co-founded USWeb in December 1995.

Firmage's online book contends that extraterrestrials, or
"teachers," have randomly appeared on Earth for several thousand
years to "nudge" human beings toward radical scientific
advancements.

The Web site also contains about 100 pages of new documents from
a source Firmage calls the "Deep Throat of Cyberspace."

One of the documents is a purported 1947 memo from President
Harry S. Truman to Secretary of Defense James Forrestal that
sets up a top-secret U.S. government operation called "Majestic
Twelve" to investigate extraterrestrials. Subsequent documents
tacitly acknowledge a series of spaceship crashes from 1947 to
1953.

In addition, the site includes an alleged June 1947 letter from
Albert Einstein and Robert Oppenheimer to high-tech visionary
Vannevar Bush dishing up advice on how scientists should handle
aliens, and a Nov. 12, 1963, note from President John F. Kennedy
to a CIA operative about "UFO intelligence files." Kennedy was
assassinated 10 days later in Dallas.

Dr. Robert Wood, a retired aerospace engineer and longtime
McDonnell Douglas executive living in Newport Beach, said he has
studied the controversial documents and believes that they are
real.

Many Silicon Valley scientists and historians scoff at Firmage's
beliefs.

"It's a joke; if not, then I must be an alien," chortled
Narinder Kapany, the Woodside resident who is credited with
inventing fiber optics.

"I've met a bunch of the valley's pioneers, and none of them I
know are aliens," said John McLaughlin, co-author of "The Making
of Silicon Valley: A One Hundred Year Renaissance" and president
of the Santa Clara Valley Historical Association. "The valley
was built on ingenuity and hard work."

Firmage insists that he is not trying to cash in on the enduring
UFO craze. Rather, he has sunk more than $3 million into
establishing Project Kairos (after an ancient Greek word meaning
"the right or opportune moment") to prepare mankind for aliens.

He also has bought ads in Rolling Stone, the Wall Street
Journal, the Economist and other print and online publications
to publicize his book.

"There is no money to be made -- just to be lost," he said.

Firmage is well aware of a far greater potential loss -- his
credibility.

"Why would a young, successful CEO risk his reputation on
something this fantastic?" he asked. "Because I believe so much
in this theory. And I am in a unique position to communicate an
extremely important message. I have the money, credibility,
scientific grounding and faith."

Nonetheless, he said, competitors have attempted to exploit his
fantastical theories. "Our competitors were highlighting this to
the media and calling Joe a crackpot," USWeb/CKS board member
Gary Rieschel was quoted as saying in one computer trade
publication.

Firmage's situation is eerily similar to a recent plot in the TV
show "Ally McBeal," in which a respected stockbroker is fired
from his job after claiming to have seen a unicorn. The broker
is reinstated after a judge rules that his beliefs do not
interfere with his job performance.

The tightly knit UFO community is dramatically split over
Firmage's book.

"What he has pulled together is quite impressive. I don't know
if it's true, but it's worth thinking about," said Bernard
Haisch, 49, an astrophysicist and editor of the Journal of
Scientific Exploration (www.jse.com).

This summer, the society sponsored the first independent review
of UFO phenomena since 1970. Its conclusion: Some UFO sightings
deserve further scientific study.

Firmage's critics, however, contend that he is misguided.

"Roswell has repeatedly been discounted as nothing more than a
military experiment," said Frank Drake, president of SETI
Institute (Search for Extraterrestrial Intelligence), the
Mountain View organization made famous by Jodie Foster in the
movie "Contact." SETI is partly financed by leading high- tech
figures such as Microsoft co- founder Paul Allen,
Hewlett-Packard co-founders William Hewlett and the late David
Packard, and Intel co-founder Gordon Moore.

"It is constantly exploited by obsessive types who want to
believe. If it's not Santa Claus, then it's aliens," said Drake.

Firmage said he has great respect for Drake, but "if he had the
same information that I have, I don't believe he would reach his
conclusion.

"It's the Flat-Earth society mentality all over again, and I'm
here to prove my theory is real," he said.

=A91998 San Francisco Chronicle  Page A1






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 10

                             Re: Fox TV Special

From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net>
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 23:11:14 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 00:45:20 -0500
Subject: Re: Fox TV Special


>From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
>Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 18:49:30 +0000
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Fox TV Special

>>Next there is the sounds which were recorded and witnessed by
>>Poppi as well as others.

>>This as it is shown in one of the videos, was analyzed by the
>>same group which worked with Stevie Wonder, the Musician/
>>Singer....whom I'm sure you know of.

>>They verified that the sounds resonated at the same frequency
>>when they harmonized, as the earth

>I do have a musical background, but for the life of me I'm not
>quite sure what this means or what its significance is. I'm not
>casting doubts on what you are saying; on the contrary, I don't
>really even understand it. Can you fill me in? And if not, is
>there a more accomplished musician on the list that can?


I'm a music professional, and have no idea what this means. I'm
inclined to think it doesn't mean anything.

As for "the same group that worked with Stevie Wonder," he's
worked with lots of musicians. And how does working with Stevie
Wonder qualify anyone to understand the resonant frequency of
the earth?

So silly....

Greg Sandow





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 10

                        Experts Estimate Galaxy Count

From: Steven L. Wilson Sr <Ndunlks@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 23:54:23 EST
Fwd Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 00:59:23 -0500
Subject: Experts Estimate Galaxy Count


125 Billion in the Universe, They Think


Reuters

A U S T I N,   Texas,   Jan. 7 =97 Looking back in time at a tiny
section of sky, the Hubble Space Telescope found there may be
125 billion galaxies in the universe, about 45 billion more than
the last best estimate, astronomers reported today.

This deep view of the universe reveals a plethora of galaxies in
visible and infrared light. The image by NASA's Hubble Space
Telescope revealed many more than expected. (R. Williams
[STScI], the HDF-South team, and NASA)

The new number was based on observations by the orbiting
telescope=92s Deep Field camera last October, when it looked at a
speck-sized area of the southern sky, taking what amounts to a
visual core sample of the heavens.

The Hubble telescope took a similar view of the northern sky in
1995, and then estimated that there might be 80 billion galaxies
in existence.

Harry Ferguson of the Space Telescope Science Institute, which
studies Hubble findings, said the southern observations looked a
bit further into the past than the northern ones, and managed to
detect dimmer objects in space, which accounts for the higher
galactic count.

12 Billion Light Years Away The Deep Field-South project looked
12 billion light years away in distance, back in time to a
period perhaps one billion years after the theoretical big bang
that astronomers believe created the universe.

Hubble=92s glimpse of the southern sky took in an area that would
appear to be =93about the size of a grain of sand held at arm=92s
length,=94 Ferguson told reporters at the American Astronomical
Society meeting in Austin.

But in that small segment of the sky, the telescope spied 620
galaxies.

Scientists extrapolated from that sample to theorize that there
might be 125 billion galaxies over the whole sky.

"Anybody could have predicted it", Ferguson said, stressing that
by looking further back in time, it was expected that more
galaxies would turn up.

Weird-Shaped Galaxies

Ferguson and other astronomers at a news conference acknowledged
that some of the newly detected galaxies were oddly shaped,
unlike the symmetrical Milky Way that contains Earth and other
more familiar galaxies that are shaped like spirals and
ellipses.

These newly-spied galaxies appeared to be a disorganized
collection of loosely-bound lumps. One astronomer likened their
shape to a Danish pastry with raisins and another called one
group of these galaxies =93a pastry shop.=94

The notion that there might be more galaxies than originally
thought is grist for astronomers trying to figure out how the
universe developed, especially in its earliest stages, Ferguson
said.

Perhaps Ghost Galaxies, Too

Because these observations by Hubble could see very faint
objects whose light made its journey toward Earth billions of
years ago, it probably counted so-called ghost galaxies in its
estimate.

Ghost galaxies are tiny, and consist of large amounts of
mysterious dark matter. Since astronomers believe that 90
percent of the universe may be made up of dark matter, that
makes the ghosts worth studying and new astronomical instruments
make this possible.

A light year is the distance light travels in a year, about 6
trillion miles.

   Copyright =A91998 ABCNEWS and Starwave Corporation. All rights
reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast,
rewritten or redistributed in any form.





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 10

                       Re: 25 Rules of Disinformation

From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net>
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 23:34:14 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 01:03:36 -0500
Subject: Re: 25 Rules of Disinformation


>From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
>Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 20:23:07 +0000
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: 25 Rules of Disinformation

>>From: Gary Alevy <galevy@pipeline.com>
>>Date: Thu, 07 Jan 1999 18:32:44 -0500
>>Fwd Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 17:02:01 -0500
>>Subject: Re: 25 Rules of Disinformation

>Previously, gary offered this heap:

>>>-- What are the real issues in the dispute which broke out last
>>>month over Dr. Hynek? This real issues revolve around the fact
>>>that there is AMPLE evidence, evidence tantamount to proof, FOR
>>>ME, that Dr. Hynek was working both sides of the street in his
>>>later career as Godfather of ufology. What is proof? It is the
>>>evidence that convinces YOU. That is, there is no absolute
>>>proof available in this area, short of the individual at issue
>>>owning up in public

><snip>

>Gary,

>I really don't know where to begin. My head is still swimming
>from such a convoluted self justification for your position
>regarding Hynek.

>"Evidence tantamount to proof" is not proof.

>Evidence is evidence and proof is proof. Sometimes they are the
>same. Sometimes they are not. It all depends on the validity of
>the argument that supports the evidence and vice versa.

<much patient explanation snipped>

Here's a list of things that might provide real evidence that
Hynek was an intelligence agent:

1. He told somebody that he was.

2. Among his papers we find correspondence between him and
intelligence officials, confirming his involvement.

3. A known intelligence agent whom we know to be honest says
Hynek was involved.

4. Somebody we trust overheard Hynek in conversation with known
intelligence agents.

5. In the files of some intelligence agency, we find documents
saying Hynek was an agent.

6. Among Hynek's papers we find cancelled checks from an
intelligence agency. (Unlikely, I'm sure. They'd find less
traceable ways of giving him money.)

Everything on this list is tangible. Everything points directly
to Hynek's involvement. I could also imagine less tangible kinds
of evidence. For instance, what if people in the UFO community
sometimes saw Hynek deep in conversation with unknown people?
What if he never told anyone what those conversations were
about? What if he brushed off all questions? What if he
sometimes disappeared for hours at a time, and never told anyone
where he went?

Of course, that would only prove he had things in his life he
didn't want known. They wouldn't prove his unknown life involved
intelligence work. Gary, of course, doesn't even have anything
this specific. All he has is speculation.

Incidentally, in 1968 and maybe in years afterward there was a
CIA office in the federal building in Chicago. It wasn't
labelled CIA. Rather comically, it was labelled "GSA Gear
Locker," or in other words it passed itself off as a closet
belonging to the General Services Administration, a federal
agency that provides various government services, including (I
think) janitorial work.

This was the only gear locker I'd ever seen with both a
microphone and a speaker grille. It also had a doorbell. If you
rang it, a voice would ask you what you wanted, and then (since
you wouldn't know how to give the right answer) would tell you
to go away.

How do I know this? Well, actually I don't know for sure that
the CIA was hiding behind this hapless disguise. That, however,
is what I was told when I was in Chicago in '68 for the famous
demonstrations against the Democratic Convention. Somebody
organized an exposure of this "gear locker" office. We visited
the gear locker, then notified the press and TV to meet us there
(it was on some high floor of the building) and planned to tell
them what, supposedly, lay behind it.

This plan failed, though, when the feds found out about it. I
got there late, and was confronted with a scene right out of a
spy movie. I walked in the federal building, and saw men
standing around who looked exactly like you'd expect an
intelligence agent or a cop to look. Tough, unsmiling,
suspicious. As I walked toward the center of the lobby, I heard
a click. I looked around; more intelligence agents (quite
seriously, they looked like they were playing secret agents in a
really clumsy film scene) had moved into place, blocking all the
doors. I got scared, turned around and tried to leave, only to
find the doors locked. The click, obviously, had been the locks
falling into place.

At this point, not suprisingly, some of the agent types grabbed
me, and started asking me questions. I managed to talk my way
out of it, by convincing them I had some routine errand in the
building. But obviously they'd busted us, and were there to stop
our little game.

Gary, did anyone ever see Hynek enter this federal building, and
take the elevator to the floor where that "gear locker" was?

Greg Sandow





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 10

                 Colin Wilson's 'Alien Dawn' - A Book Review

From: Stig Agermose <Stig_Agermose@online.pol.dk>
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 06:07:43 +0100 (MET)
Fwd Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 01:06:40 -0500
Subject: Colin Wilson's 'Alien Dawn' - A Book Review


Source: "alt.ufo.reports".

Stig

***

>From karalayn@my-dejanews.com Sat Jan 09 22:01:15
1999
Newsgroups: alt.ufo.reports
Subject: ALIEN DAWN: A Book Review
From: karalayn@my-dejanews.com
Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 21:01:15 GMT

ALIEN DAWN:  An Investigation Into The Contact Experience

By Colin Wilson

Fromm International:  New York, 1998

$26.00   hardcover   322 pages

*

In 1995, bestselling author Colin Wilson met psychiatrist John
Mack at a conference and made his first acquaintance with the
UFO-alien abduction phenomenon. Wilson had no need to engage
himself in Ufology. He was a prolific writer, 80 works to his
credit, and a skeptic. Yet when he looked at the data, he could
not explain the patterns that emerged -- phenomena that cut
across the categories of Ufology, and the paranormal realms of
folklore and mysticism. He had to look deeper. His investigation
into these mysterious depths resulted in the book, ALIEN DAWN, a
watershed that will no doubt serve as a reference for many years
to come.

In the book, Wilson reviews the historical data with a fresh
perspective. He journeys into the ancient past with stories of
the Dogon, the African tribe who somehow had knowledge of the
stars Sirius A and B before astronomers did, and suggests an
ancient astronaut visitation. He reviews some of the historical
reports and conclusions of  astrophysicist Jacques Vallee and
journalist John Keel who both helped to establish Ufology and
forteana as bona fide fields of study (though not yet by
conventional science). Then Wilson brings some of the newer
cases to our attention with his own thoughtful analysis.

The case of Anna Jamerson and Beth Collings is perhaps one of
the most enigmatic of recent times. The two women not only
report lifelong alien abductions, but believe that they were
abducted as children, separated, and then brought back together
as adults under very strange circumstances. Wilson reviews the
case and discovers even more high strangeness when it becomes
known that the two women's extended family also seemed to be
involved in the alien encounters as far back in time as the
1920s. Wilson writes that it would be easy to dismiss the case
as folie a deux. But, he suggests, if the Jamerson-Collings case
is thrown out for sheer absurdity, "then we must dismiss
everything else" in phenomenology.

We need skeptical, open minds like Wilson's to turn the
phenomena on its ear, ask the hard questions, and not be afraid
of the answers. ALIEN DAWN is an important book, an exciting
book. The kind of book that will be read and re-read as we
continue our search for meaning in the realms of Ufology and
phenomenology. Wilson suggests that maybe we unknowingly share
space and time with some kind of supernatural beings who do
things that we don't understand for reasons that we have yet to
comprehend. Or not. We just don't know. But if, he writes,
"something new and strange is going on, then perhaps the human
race ought to be looking for the answer with far more
persistence and interest than we display at present."

Yes.
***

Review by Karal Ayn Barnett c1999
UFO METAPHYSICAL SPIRITUAL PARANORMAL BOOKSTORE AND
MORE
Jinglesweb.com/karal

"Indeed, all things are inextricably bound."...Mrs.
Troi

-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion
Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/       Search, Read, Discuss,
or Start Your Own






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 10

                             Re: Fox TV Special

From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net>
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 23:54:39 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 01:10:24 -0500
Subject: Re: Fox TV Special


>Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 13:58:33 -0600
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Michael Christol <mchristo@mindspring.com>
>Subject: Re: Fox TV Special

>>I do have a musical background, but for the life of me I'm not
>>quite sure what this means or what its significance is. I'm not
>>casting doubts on what you are saying; on the contrary, I don't
>>really even understand it. Can you fill me in? And if not, is
>>there a more accomplished musician on the list that can?

>It seems that the power system which propels the Beam Ship,
>resonates on the same frequency as that of the earth.

>So, this would explain why the vehicle could operate so well
>within the atmosphere of this planet.

>Apparently the propulsion system is capable of acclimating
>itself to the planetary field within which it is operating.

How does one determine the resonant frequency of the earth? And
if one could, what would that have to do with music?

Musical sounds, I might add, don't normally have any one
frequency. They're enormously complicated, with frequencies all
up and down the spectrum sounding simultaneously. Not only that,
the frequencies change with time. I have software that can
display this rather neatly. If I had a recording of the sounds
allegedly made by Meier's alien ships, I could put it in digital
form on my hard drive, and analyze it with my software. The
result would almost certainly be a bewildering forest of spikes,
each representing a small stretch of the frequency spectrum,
some higher than others, but no single one sticking out above
the rest. (The software I'm using, for those who might be
curious, is the Spectrum Analysis plugin for Sound Forge. Sound
Forge is a standard professional-level digital audio editing
program for PCs.). A single cello note, apparently sounding a
single pitch, turns out to have well over a hundred frequency
components that show up on the spectrum graph. The sound of the
"beamships" was, I'm guessing, far more complex than that.)

And if the alleged sound of the ships wasn't musical -- if, in
other words, it's what we'd call "noise," rather than music --
then its frequency spectrum would be even more complicated. How
could it match the resonant frequency of a piece of tin foil,
let alone the earth?

We're dealing here with mystical blather.

Greg Sandow






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 10

                             Re: Fox TV Special

From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net>
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 00:28:49 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 01:15:24 -0500
Subject: Re: Fox TV Special


>Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 17:19:09 -0600
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Michael Christol <mchristo@mindspring.com>
>Subject: Re: Fox TV Special

>Apparently, you as a musician have forgotten the law of
>Harmonics... Everything vibrates at a certain frequency...
>Change the frequency of vibration of the object and you change
>the object... This has been demonstrated many times....play
>musical notes, and this generates a corresponding Color which
>can be used in a Kaleido- scopic display of sound and music.

Excuse me?????????

I suppose I should apologize for discussing this piecemeal, as I
scroll through messages that keep speeding further from reality.
But let me introduce myself as a music critic for the Wall
Street Journal, a member of the graduate studies faculty at
Juilliard, America's leading music school, and a composer who's
worked with everything from folksingers to opera companies, as
well as with synthesizers and digital audio.

This statement of Michael's is -- forgive me, Michael --
complete and utter nonsense. I'm very sympathetic to spiritual
beliefs, and I believe that music can have great spiritual
power, even, very likely, healing power. But Michael's statement
purports to describe not the spiritual meaning of music, but
physical facts about it. Not one of those supposed facts is
correct.

"Everything vibrates at a certain frequency." Not even musical
notes vibrate at one frequency. As I said in a previous post --
and as I can easily prove with standard musical software -- even
apparently pure musical notes consist of many frequencies at
once. (A pure sine wave would be an exception. But you won't
hear those outside a laboratory or a recording studio, where
they might be used for tuning or testing, or as a component of
sounds created on an analogue synthesizer.)

Besides, when we talk about musical notes vibrating, we're
talking about sound waves. Sound waves certainly vibrate. But in
what sense does a solid object vibrate? Perhaps it does in some
mystical sense, but that has nothing to do with the kinds of
tangible, measurable, physical vibrations involved in music.

"Change the frequency of vibration of the object and you change
the object."

A violinist makes a violin play different notes by changing the
way the strings vibrate. A clarinettist makes a clarinet play
different notes by changing the way the air inside the clarinet
vibrates. Musicians, in other words, do change vibrations that
have some connection with their instruments.

But how would you change the vibration of a rubber ball? Of a
broom? Of your kitchen sink? There are some objects that
obviously do vibrate -- a sheet of metal, to take a familiar
example, even one formed into a tool, like the blade of a saw.
But if you get a saw to vibrate, how does that change the saw?
In the rural south, musicians used to play the saw as a musicial
instrument, more or less by bowing it as if it were a violin. I
heard somebody doing that in the New York subway just a week or
so ago. He played the saw beautifully, changing its vibration to
form every musical pitch necessary to play a melody. But when he
finished, the saw hadn't changed at all.

"play musical notes, and this generates a corresponding Color
which can be used in a Kaleido- scopic display of sound and
music."

Oh, Michael, Michael...where did you ever learn such a thing?

Musical notes don't generate colors. The vibrations of sound --
relatively slow vibrations of air molecules -- have no relation
to light. There's no way at all to translate the wavelengths of
sound into light. If you play a note, no color physically
appears in the air or in your eye. Musicians often associate
musical notes with colors, but it's well known that they never
agree on which colors correspond to which notes. The association
of notes and colors is entirely subjective.

It's possible, of course, to build a machine or create a piece
of software that translates sound into color (I have a screen
saver that does this), but the translation is totally arbitrary.
If some sound produces a wash of red light, that's only because
the machine or the software was designed that way. There's no
intrinsic relation between the sound and the color red. In an
earlier post, I mentioned the Sound Forge Spectrum Analysis
plugin, which lets you display a visual analysis of the
frequencies in any sound on your computer. One form of the
display lets you see the frequencies as bands of color -- but
you can vary the colors at will, to decide for yourself which
colors will represent which frequencies.

Michael is talking very lovingly in spiritual terms. But the
things he's talking about aren't physical characteristics of
sound.

Greg Sandow





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 10

                        HOT GOSSIP UK - JANUARY 1999

From: Georgina Bruni <georgina@easynet.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 22:51:51 +0000
Fwd Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 09:49:14 -0500
Subject: HOT GOSSIP UK - JANUARY 1999


HOT GOSSIP UK
JANUARY 1999

NICK  POPE=92S  WEIRD  WORLD

Happy New Year everybody, and welcome to the first column of
1999.  It=92s going to be a very interesting year for those with
an interest in anything weird and wonderful, and as we approach
the Millennium, there will doubtless be lots to report in this
column.


Watch The Skies

The first story of the new year, appropriately enough, concerns
a new television series looking at UFOs, alien abductions, crop
circles, cover-ups and conspiracies.  Called Watch the Skies it
will be screened by Grenada Television on Tuesday nights at
7.30pm.  On current plans (although schedules can often be
juggled around) the first programme is due to be screened on 5th
January, but those outside the north-west will doubtless be able
to follow the Internet debate that usually follows the
transmission of programmes such as this.  I gave a major
interview, which may be used in one chunk, but is more likely to
be split up and used throughout the series, as we covered a lot
of ground.  Others interviewed included Apollo 14 astronaut
Edgar Mitchell (whose belief in extraterrestrials was mentioned
in my last column), and respected ufologist Timothy Good.


Ghost Force

Because I work for the Ministry of Defence I often review books
with a military theme.  In November I reviewed one SAS book, The
Shooting Gallery by Gaz Hunter.  This month I=92d like to point
you towards another book about the SAS.  Ghost Force is by Ken
Connor, who served in the SAS for a massive 23 years.  As you
can imagine, he has more than a few stories to tell, and the
action covers a wide spectrum of operations, including vivid
accounts of engagements in the Falklands Conflict and the Gulf
War.  But as with all these books, there are moments of humour
too (special forces personnel are notorious jokers) such as an
account of an incident where SAS personnel were given VIP
treatment when they visited Fort Bragg, the headquarters of the
elite US special forces unit, Delta Force.  A red carpet was
rolled out, and senior US Air Force personnel turned out to
salute.  It turned out that Delta Force personnel had somehow
convinced everyone that the SAS troops were a visiting
delegation of MPs.  Ghost Force is published by Weidenfeld &
Nicolson and costs =A320.


RAF Rudloe Manor

In last month=92s column I broke the story of how the headquarters
of the RAF Provost and Security Services moved from RAF Rudloe
Manor to RAF Henlow.  This is of great interest to conspiracy
theorists who (wrongly) believe that this unit carried out
covert UFO research.  Imagine my surprise and amusement to find
that one notorious self-publicist was claiming to have beaten me
to it, and published the news earlier.  He was proudly
trumpeting his alleged coup on the UFO UpDates Internet site
(seemingly unaware that most people who see his name on a
message regard any of his posts as nothing more than spam, and
delete them automatically).  Well, if you want stories cribbed
from freely-available, over-the-counter magazines like Air
Force=92s Monthly or Jane=92s Defence Weekly, fine. And if you like
listening to windbags who like to pretend they=92ve got inside
information, then go for it.  But if you want the real, inside
stories =85 keep coming to this site.


The Real X-Files

On 17th December, the official Hansard record of proceedings in
the House of Lords detailed the latest revelations about
Ministry of Defence UFO files.  Lord Hill-Norton, a former Chief
of the Defence Staff, had asked a Parliamentary Question which
led to details about files which no ufologists had even heard
of.  The latest information indicates that 108 further files
exist, on top of the 56 files at the Public Record Office and
the 76 files held by Secretariat(Air Staff), as detailed in the
responses to Lord Hill-Norton=92s earlier questions, which were
answered on 4 October and 19 November respectively.  This makes
a total of a massive 240 files (not bad for a =93low-profile=94
subject!) on UFOs, of which only 23 are currently open to the
public.  When we get our long-awaited and oft-promised Freedom
of Information Act, the MOD won=92t know what=92s hit it, now
ufologists are armed with these file references!  One ufologist
- he=92s a decent chap so, I won=92t name him - has baldly stated
that he believes this proves there were other departments
involved in covert UFO research, aside from Sec(AS) and its
predecessors, and that I wasn=92t told about this during my work
at the Ministry of Defence; he=92s constantly issuing statements
alleging that I was kept in the dark, and he uses these Hansard
extracts to support his case.  The only thing he conveniently
forgets to mention?  I=92m the one passing him the copies of
Hansard!  Oops!


The Uninvited

An exciting new documentary on the alien abduction phenomenon is
to be screened by The Learning Channel in the United States on
18 January.  The Uninvited has been made by Transmedia
Productions (the team responsible for the successful UFO
documentary, Dreamland) and is based on my book of the same
name.  Not surprisingly, therefore, I was the consultant on this
programme.  It=92s possibly the most comprehensive programme on
the subject ever produced, and features interviews with the
likes of Budd Hopkins, David Jacobs, John Mack, Whitley
Strieber, Travis Walton, and Peter Robbins.  There=92s also a rare
interview with Linda Cortile, and footage of one of Budd=92s
Support Group meetings, together with some sensational new
cases, and a few surprises.  But unlike so many programmes on
this subject, it=92s genuinely balanced, and contains
contributions from those sceptical of the theory that the
explanation for claims of alien abductions is extraterrestrial.
There are interviews with  Philip Klass, Dr Chris French (Head
of the Psychology Department at Goldsmith=92s College) and Dr
Susan Blackmore (Senior Lecturer in Psychology at the University
of the West of England).  The programme will be screened in the
UK by Sky One, at a date yet to be decided.  But once it=92s out
in the States, expect furious Internet debate.


Truthsqueakers - No Views

Hot Gossip UK Editor-in-Chief Georgina Bruni has had an
unpleasant reminder of just how bitchy the wacky world of
ufology can be.  Having just signed a deal with a major UK
publisher for a book about the famous Rendlesham Forest UFO case
(I=92m doing the foreword), she was expecting interest from other
researchers, and was confident that they=92d be genuinely pleased
to see sensational new information put into the public domain.
Alas, it was not to be.  While support did come from some
researchers, others have not been so generous. Two noted
=93anoraks=94 have been absolutely furious at the news, and have
been stamping their little feet in frustration.  The two lads
concerned are best known for a bonkers claim about breaking into
a secret underground city and being shot at by the guards!  One
of them produces a magazine full of all sorts of amusing science
fiction stories.  Nice to know that certain people find it
easier to knock everyone else=92s research, as opposed to
producing anything original and worthwhile themselves!


Flying Lighthouses and Radioactive Rabbits

Researcher James Easton has done some interesting research on
the Rendlesham Forest case.  That said, he=92s been a little
naughty, and anyone would think - judging from his recent
Internet posts - that he was the only person ever to have
investigated the case.  Stanton Friedman once said that he felt
he=92s been =93airbrushed out of the Roswell case=94 by researchers
who=92d built upon his work, and I wonder whether Jenny Randles
and Georgina Bruni feel the same way.  Easton=92s Internet posts
are full of references to his own papers on the subject, but
mysteriously fail to mention any dissenting views.  I wonder
why.  For those who=92d like some balance, check out Jenny
Randles=92 paper Seeing the Forest for the Trees (IUR, Summer
Edition),  Georgina Bruni=92s Rendlesham Unravelled - Not and my
Rendlesham - The Unresolved Mystery.  The last two should be
accessible on back issues of Hot Gossip UK, "The Unexplained
Sections", on the "Bentwaters" section at UFO UPDATES or at
www.cninews.com.  Easton is continuing to amuse serious
researchers with his theory that the UFO seen by Lt Col Charles
Halt and his team was the beam from the Orford Ness lighthouse.
This is despite the fact that Halt has made it abundantly clear
that he was entirely familiar with the lighthouse, and had it in
view throughout his encounter.  His memo makes it clear that at
one time he was observing objects moving about in the night sky
(you=92ll believe a lighthouse can fly!). There=92s also the fact
that there were physical traces indicating that a structured
craft had been present - damage to nearby trees, and
indentations in the ground.  These holes were surveyed with a
Geiger Counter, and although the actual levels are the subject
of legitimate debate, it=92s not disputed that levels peaked in
the holes (and on the nearby damaged trees), and fell away in
the surrounding area.  The sceptics say these marks were caused
by rabbits - presumably spooky, radioactive glow-in-the-dark
bunnies?!


Soldier Five

In my November column I hinted at a row over yet another SAS
book, Soldier Five, by Mike Coburn.  There had been rumours in
literary circles that people were trying to ban the book, and
that legal action reminiscent of that taken against Peter Wright
- author of Spycatcher - was being threatened.  The situation is
unclear, but I=92ll keep readers posted, as and when I find out
what=92s going on.


Are UFOs Secret Military Craft?

This is a popular theory with some researchers, but not one that
stands up to any detailed and informed scrutiny.  Let me
explain.  Of course we have craft that you won=92t see at the
Farnborough Airshow for a few years.  But any exotic prototype
or operational craft will be flown in clearly-defined ranges, at
night, and with no lights.  In other words, as I have patiently
tried to explain to one ufologist who touts this as his
favourite (and seemingly only) theory, you simply don=92t fly your
best-kept secrets over the mainland UK, ablaze with coloured
lights, and run the risk that it will be seen, photographed, and
splashed all over the morning papers or the Internet.  It=92s a
nice theory, but hopelessly na=EFve, and one that causes great
hilarity with aviation experts.  Only in the RAF=92s wildest
dreams do they have anything remotely similar to, say, the craft
that overflew RAF Cosford and RAF Shawbury on 31 March 1993.
And if we did have such a craft, I can assure you that the
detailed and very public investigations that followed this
incident would have been switched off in an instant.  Think
about it!


RAF Feltwell

In previous columns I=92ve highlighted some recent controversy
about the role of RAF Feltwell.  But on 19th November the
government formally responded to a question about this, and
confirmed to Lord Hill-Norton that: =93=85 the only role of the 5th
Space Surveillance Squadron at RAF Feltwell is to detect, track
and identify the status of satellites, space debris and space
probes.=94

Ed=92s Note:

Nick Pope=92s books, The Uninvited and Open Skies, Closed Minds,
are available from all good bookshops, in paperback.  His
publishers in Britain are Simon & Schuster. The Uninvited is
available in the US, published by The Overlook Press, who plan
to publish Open Skies, Closed Minds later this year.

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
Permission to distribute this text providing the authors and
publication are credited. Photographs may be copyright and
cannot be used without consent.  =A9 Hot Gossip UK 1998
www.hotgossip.co.uk
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Georgina Bruni
Editor in Chief of HOT GOSSIP UK
www.hotgossip.co.uk

Contributor to UFOCITY at: www.ufocity.com

E-mail: georgina@easynet.co.uk
E-mail: 104707.336@compuserve.com





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 10

               Re: Colin Wilson's 'Alien Dawn' - A Book Review

From: Georgina Bruni <georgina@easynet.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 22:55:32 +0000
Fwd Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 10:26:23 -0500
Subject: Re: Colin Wilson's 'Alien Dawn' - A Book Review


>From: Stig Agermose <Stig_Agermose@online.pol.dk>
>Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 06:07:43 +0100 (MET)
>Subject: Colin Wilson's 'Alien Dawn' - A Book Review
>To: updates@globalserve.net

>ALIEN DAWN:  An Investigation Into The Contact Experience
>By Colin Wilson

>In 1995, bestselling author Colin Wilson met psychiatrist John
>Mack at a conference and made his first acquaintance with the
>UFO-alien abduction phenomenon. Wilson had no need to engage
>himself in Ufology. He was a prolific writer, 80 works to his
>credit, and a skeptic.

That's an interesting post and Just for the record -Wilson was
introduced to the UFO/alien phenomenon as early as the 1970s
when he wrote the introduction for the 1977/79 book "Briefing
For Landing On Planet Earth", a factual publication written by
Stuart Holroyd. It was a controversial record of a unique
encounter with a number of entities known as "The Nine". The
central figures connected with the book were British aristocrat
Sir John Whitmore and Dr Andrija Puharich. However, I'm not sure
he was aware of the abduction phenomena.

Georgina Bruni
London
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Georgina Bruni
Editor in Chief of HOT GOSSIP UK
www.hotgossip.co.uk

Contributor to UFOCITY at: www.ufocity.com

E-mail: georgina@easynet.co.uk
E-mail: 104707.336@compuserve.com





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 10

                       Re: FOX Hoax Special - Reaction

From: Steven W. Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 07:52:26 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 10:30:48 -0500
Subject: Re: FOX Hoax Special - Reaction


>From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
>Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 09:52:18 +0000
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: FOX Hoax Special - Reaction

Roger-

I wanted to offer a couple of quick replies, but we're rehashing
material that has taken up many gigabytes of bandwidth over the
past four years. This story just isn't worth it.

<snips>

>Hi Steve,
>
>I never said that a better AA film could be produced for
>$10,000. I said that a better ALIEN could be produced for
>$10,000. My post above got snipped prematurely, though I'm sure
>you didn't do it on purpose. If it had continued, I said that
>Santilli probably spent no more than $20,000 on the AA footage
>altogether and that it would be peanuts at double that price
>($40,000).

>It is understandable that many would think the moviemaking
>process is expensive; it can be with big name stars and the
>like. But the fact is that I've directed low budget features
>running 90 to 120 minutes for prices ranging from $50,000 to
>$120,000. Incidently, the one for $120,000 dollars was a poorly
>scripted Horror film called "Forever Evil" (United
>Entertainment/VCI Home Video). It starred absolutely no one
>famous; all unknowns. It has played on the USA network at least
>twice that I know of and, last I checked, had grossed over 2
>million dollars. Therefore, if decent production values can be
>maintained on a 120 minute film at $120,000, then it stands to
>reason having $20,000 to $40,000 to produce only a few minutes
>of crap like the AA footage would be a windfall, even if
>Santilli had to hire someone to produce it for him. Believe me,
>Santilli had every reason to believe that he'd make serious
>money off his little hoax. Come to think of it, if everyone
>involved was in a profit sharing arraingement, they'd have

>plenty of good reasons to keep their mouhts shut!

A number of estimates regarding the production cost of producing
the Santilli "film" were posted by "experts" in special effects.
I put that in quotes because one often doesn't know who the
other person is making the statement, and at some point you have
to either accept their comments or reject them.  Estimates
ranged up to six figures, and down to about $50K. Yes, I am
aware of small budget productions.

My point is that this is not a simple production that was cooked
up by a couple of teenagers in a garage (which I know is not the
point you were trying to make).  If it was a production, which
appears to be the case, then it was well thought out.  It took
real money to produce, and not pocket change, which means that
one should be able to follow a paper trail (if one could find
it).

<snip>

>Like wise, having spent years in the operating room as a medical
>illustrator, I can tell you that the difference between a
>surgical move that is correct and one that isn't is merely
>millimeters in difference, and that's on a living person where
>it REALLY counts! It would not be visible to the naked eye of an
>observer in O.R. and certainly would not be apparent on the
>crummy AA footage. Granted, just like the piano footage above,
>the overall hand positions and movements might ring true; that's
>easy, any person could do it. But what the fingers do on a micro
>level is what really counts and there's no way to make that
>distinction, even on well produced operating room documentation.
>Consult your medical friends again, I'm sure they'll agree.

Actually, that was all discussed at length as well.  It turns
out that scapels are held differently in different parts of the
world, so there isn't a single methodology.  It also turns out
that scalpels aren't necessary held in the same way by
pathologists and surgeons, which is another complication.  Then
there's the fact that we're allegedly looking at a procedure
that took place 50 years ago, and both equipment and
methodologies have changed since then.  This was, after all, an
alleged dissection, not an operation.

You raise good reasons to be skeptical of the Santilli "film",
but I see no proof here.   There is no reason for the Santilli
"film" to be given any additional publicity or discussion unless
there is something new to add to the mix.

Steve





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 10

                       Re: FOX Hoax Special - Reaction

From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 08:59:37 +0000
Fwd Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 10:33:38 -0500
Subject: Re: FOX Hoax Special - Reaction


Re: FOX Hoax Special - Reaction

>From: Gildas Bourdais <GBourdais@aol.com>
>Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 18:34:11 EST
>Fwd Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 22:22:48 -0500
>Subject: Re: FOX Hoax Special - Reaction

>>From: moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com
>>Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 10:34:38 +0000
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>Subject: FOX Hoax Special - Reaction

Previously, I had written this regarding Santilli's "lack of
knowledge" about Roswell and the AA footage:

>>Do you think Santilli is going to act any differently? Playing
>>"dumb" is probably the easiest thing Santilli has to do in
>>association with this whole extravaganza.

>>He'll never admit anything when there's money to be made.

Gildas responds:

>Apparently, you have an answer to everything.

My reply:

The whole purpose of debate is to arrive at answers to
complicated issues. Granted, my answers are speculative in
nature. Unfortunately, Santilli puts us the arena of speculation
and holds us hostage there by his refusal to cooperate with a
real AA investigation. Do I have a all the answers? How could I?
How could anyone? This is just my opinion based on something
that I do for a living; producing and directing entertainment.
And lets make no mistake here; AA is nothing but entertainment
at this point. Santilli, himself, prevents it from entering the
realm of science.

>However, I still fail to understand how a little music producer,
>who knew nothing about the Roswell case, and was not interested
>in UFOs in general, ponders one day : What about producing a UFO
>hoax ? Now suppose that, however crazy it seems to be, he
>launches into this risky project. If I were in that position, I
>would at least gather some information on the story, in order to
>avoid too obvious mistakes. But, no, he has not done that,
>apparently. The makes a body very different from the
>descriptions of Roswell witnesses (fat belly, muscular, six
>fingers...). And the story of the cameraman does not fit either.

Gildas,

You say:

>[Santilli] knew nothing about the Roswell case...

as if it's a proven fact. There is no proof for this at all;
only his word. So, if Santilli's word that he knew nothing about
Roswell is good enough to pass as truth, then why don't you
believe his word that the AA film is real? Each position has the
same lack of proof to support it.

I truly mean no disrespect, but it would seem to me that you are
being conveniently selective about which of his statements you
hold to be true. Personally, I don't think one can base a theory
on the notion that "sometimes he tells the truth" when we have
no proof, or even supporting evidence, that he has EVER told the
truth regarding AA.

I say this because Santilli has yet to come up with anything to
support his dubious claims, even if it would help his position.
In fact, he has actually done just the opposite. He won't
release the original film for inspection and he won't let the
cameraman talk to anyone directly. Does this sound like the type
of person that is anxious to be vindicated within the UFO
community?

Finally, you wrote:

>Sometime, the wind is going to blow and , as we
>say in French: "Ca va d=E9coiffer".

Agreed. Unfortunately, we've been down-wind from Santilli for
too long. <G>

Take care,

Roger Evans





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 10

                  Re: Re: The Credibility of Edgar Fouche'

From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 09:30:17 +0000
Fwd Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 11:05:36 -0500
Subject: Re: Re: The Credibility of Edgar Fouche'


>From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@connectmmic.net>
>Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 19:38:22 -0500
>Fwd Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 23:11:30 -0500
>Subject: Re: The Credibility of Edgar Fouche'

>>From: Tim Matthews <matthews@zetnet.co.uk>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: The Credibility of Edgar Fouche'
>>Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 23:10:30 -0000

Previously, Tim had declared:

>>Not slander, just a request for some proof.....
>
>>Do you or your husband have a view on Senator Moynihans' recent
>>comments that scientific advances cannot be hidden for more than
>>a few years??

Serge responded:

>I have asked you, on
>this List, a couple of times, a few pointed questions based
>"specifically" on this secret hidden technology paradox inherent
>to your research-claims: you never answered the damn questions.

>Surprised - well, not really, rather pissed off - when you take
>this rabbit out of the hat:

>>NO! Just to ask serious and detailed questions about his
>>"evidence", which by any standards can best be described as
>>hearsay.

I couldn't agree more, Serge.

I, too, have questioned Tim about his "I've got a secret in my
pocket that can prove all my claims" approach to debate. Several
times he said he was going to send me some technical info that
he didn't feel comfortable releasing on the list. Never got it.
When I brought this up on the list, he sent me an email claiming
his computer was down and he'd get back to me later, or
something as such. I'll let you guess the end to this vapor-ware
charade.

By the way, if you look in MY pocket, you'll find out who killed
JFK!

No...not that pocket. That's reserved for Roswell.

No...not that pocket, that's where I keep the secrets of
Stonehenge.

Hey, I need a bigger coat!<G>

Later,

Roger Evans





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 10

                                     Re:

From: Sharon Kardol <sharon@hotmix.com.au>
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 23:02:58 +0800
Fwd Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 11:12:30 -0500
Subject: Re:


>From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
>Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 19:17:06 +0000
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: NASA's Stephens Admits to CAUS That He is a Fraud

>>From: Sharon Kardol <sharon@hotmix.com.au>
>>Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 10:34:53 +0800
>>Fwd Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 17:16:20 -0500
>>Subject: Re: NASA's Stephens Admits to CAUS That He is a Fraud


>You can be assured that most everything that Mr. Gersten says is
>irrelevant to me except when he tries to include me in the
>exorcism of his own guilty conscience.

>He could have written,"Many of us were so eager" or "Some of us
>were so eager" or "There are those of us that were so eager" or
>"This list was so eager", etc. The English language is a very
>specific tool and, as an experienced lawyer, I'm sure Mr.
>Gersten knows EXACTLY what he is saying as any given moment.
>
>It's regretable that his research of Stephens wasn't half as
>vigorous as the pitiful defense of Gersten's own pleadings to
>the UFO community.
>
>Personally, I was embarrassed for the man.
>
>Take care,
>
>Roger Evans


Here, here.  He should have thought before he wrote. Email
implies a certain informality in our lives but that doesn't mean
we shouldn't think carefully about what we are about write.

I too blushed for the man.  Blushed for the whole UFO
community.

Cheers,
Sharon. K







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 10

               Re: NASA's Stephens Admits to CAUS That He is a

From: Sharon Kardol <sharon@hotmix.com.au>
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 23:08:16 +0800
Fwd Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 11:18:19 -0500
Subject: Re: NASA's Stephens Admits to CAUS That He is a

>From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: NASA's Stephens Admits to CAUS That He is a Fraud
>Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 23:47:18 -0500


>nobody with any common sense -- assuming
>they've been in the field long enough to know what the history
>is -- can take someone like Stephens seriously, without checking
>him out first. If you distribute some kind of UFO publication,
>in print or by e-mail, you have a responsibility to do some
>basic checking before you spread these stories. Peter Gersten
>didn't do this. Some of the stuff Stephens talked about -- the
>Norad "fence," for instance -- might be hard to verify if you
>didn't have government or military contacts. But as Roger and
>others have demonstrated, anyone can check to see whether
>Stephens really was a Navy SEAL.

>Peter Gersten didn't do this, which in my opinion makes him
>irresponsible. He eagerly spread the story, thus giving it
>credibility. If he'd spent an hour checking, he would have found
>out right away that basic details weren't right, and would have
>saved us all a lot of nonsense.


This is true. Too true. Unfortunately, look how long it took for
anybody to do a check, and verify Mr Stephens details, myself
included. I may not have eagerly spread the story but I'm
probably just a guilty of irresponsibility.

Cheers, in a shade of red






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 10

                           Re: Sightings - Czarnik

From: Ron Decker <decker@wt.net>
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 09:20:41 -0600
Fwd Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 11:26:09 -0500
Subject: Re: Sightings - Czarnik


>Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 16:05:37 -0600
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Michael Christol <mchristo@mindspring.com>
>Subject: Re: Sightings - Czarnik

>>Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 08:32:41 -0600
>>From: Ron Decker <decker@wt.net>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>Subject: Re: Sightings - Czarnik

>>worked for NASA and his job was to baby-sit a certain button.
>>The neighbor's job was to watch live feeds from NASA missions
>>and screen video that 'wasn't supposed to be seen by the
>>public'. When something popped up that wasn't to go out for
>>public consumption, he would push the button removing the feed
>>from public view. Unfortunately he wouldn't reveal what the
>>criteria were for censuring.

>I am sorry for the delay in replying...your message was lost in
>the shuffle of all the emails I receive.

Not a problem.

>I wish to thank you for the reply to my message, and I would not
>be surprised at the validity of it.

Mike,

You're welcome.  While I'm intensely interested in the UFO subject,
and read EBK's wonderful list religiously, I seldom participate.

Like many interested in this subject I hear stories that are not
verifiable.  Just tales that get told and passed around.  I have
no doubt that what my friend related to me is true.  Unfortunately
the story doesn't seem to be able to go any further.

>They use to have live feeds until the STS-38 flight changed all
>that.  I have videos of that flight film of the objects moving
>across the rim of the earth...

>I have other videos of daytime shots taken of the earth as well,
>showing objects moving across the face of the planet at regular
>intervals.

>If it is possible to receive direct coloberation from your
>friend, I would be interested in doing so... I would appreciate
>any assistance in contacting the author of the "pushing button"
>story...

I've already asked my friend about setting up a meeting with the
guy who gave him the story. The NASA employee won't. Pretty
typical.

Best regards,
Ron.





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 10

                          BWW Media Alert 19990110

From: BufoCalvin@aol.com
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 11:22:12 EST
Fwd Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 13:10:39 -0500
Subject: BWW Media Alert 19990110


Bufo Calvin
P O Box 5231, Walnut Creek, CA  94596
Internet: BufoCalvin@aol.com
Website: <A HREF="http://members.aol.com/bufocalvin">http://members.aol.com/bufo
calvin<;/a>
<A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/redirect-home/bufosweirdworld"> Link
to Amazon.com</a>
ALL RIGHTS RESERVED (permission is granted to reproduce or redistribute this edi
tion of Bufo's WEIRD WORLD provided that attribution is made to http://members.a
ol.com/bufocalvin. It is good etiquette to check with strangers before you e-mai
l them something.  If you forward this, please make sure it is clear that you ar
e forwarding it).


January 10, 1999

Out of curiosity, I checked the Nielsen ratings for last week's WORLD'S
GREATEST HOAXES show.  It was Fox's sixth highest rated show for the period
(41st overall out of 125 overall).  That's pretty good for Fox, and while
MAGIC'S GREATEST SECRETS beat it, I'd still think we could see a sequel.

This week is pretty slow, but I do think we'll see some buzz in the
"community" about the NOVA Nessie program.  Check out the preview of it at
<A HREF="http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/preview/2601/288.html">http://www.pbs.or
g/wgbh/nova/preview/2601/288.html</A>.

My new FATE feature should run for the first time in the April issue, and my
deadline for that is January 15.  If you'd like information on contributing
weird reports from around the world for it, just let me know.

On to the listings: Times are generally Pacific.

TELEVISION

A&E

Sunday, January 10, 4:00 PM, ANCIENT MYSTERIES WITH LEONARD NIMOY: UFOS: THE
FIRST ENCOUNTERS (from ancient writings)

THE DISCOVERY CHANNEL

Sunday, January 10, 12:30 PM, ARTHUR C. CLARKE'S WORLD OF STRANGE POWERS:
WARNINGS FROM THE FUTURE
Sunday, January 10, 10:00 PM, WOULD YOU BELIEVE IT?: CASTLES, TOMBS, AND
LEONARDO (includes haunting in England)
Thursday, January 14, 10:00 PM, INTO THE UNKNOWN: GIANT SERPENTS
Friday, January 15, 1:00 AM, INTO THE UNKNOWN: GIANT SERPENTS
Saturday, January 16, 2:00 PM, INTO THE UNKNOWN: GIANT SERPENTS
Next Tuesday, January 19, 8:00 PM, INSIDE AREA 51
Next Tuesday, January 19, 11:00 PM, INSIDE AREA 51
Next Thursday, January 21, 10:00 PM, INTO THE UNKNOWN: MYSTERIOUS HAPPENINGS
(crop circles; disappearing houses)
Next Friday, January 22, 1:00 AM, INTO THE UNKNOWN: MYSTERIOUS HAPPENINGS
(crop circles; disappearing houses)

MTV

Monday, January 11, 10:30 PM, ROAD RULES: haunted hotel
Saturday, January 16, 9:30 PM, ROAD RULES: haunted hotel

PBS

Tuesday, January 12, 8:00 PM, (although many stations will show it at
different times, on different days, or even with different content) NOVA: THE
BEAST OF LOCH NESS (rumor has it that they actually came out somewhat
favorable to Nessie. Considering some of the skeptical bent of other episodes,
that will be surprising if true)

THE SCIENCE CHANNEL

The new schedule (since December 28, 1998) is weird programming for an hour
each at 3:00 AM, 11:00 AM,and 7:00 PM. Alternating shows are: INTO THE UNKNOWN
and ARTHUR C. CLARKE'S MYSTERIOUS UNIVERSE. They also run a Roswell show now
every other week (it's probably the same show every time) at 4:00 AM and noon
on Sundays.

THE SCI-FI CHANNEL

Tuesday, January 12,11:00 AM, SIGHTINGS: EPISODE #3011(finding children from a
previous life; Montreal UFO; monster in Japan; psychic detective)
Wednesday, January 13, 11:00 AM, SIGHTINGS: EPISODE #3012 (haunting; past
lives; Florida UFOs; psychic detective)
Thursday, January 14, 11:00 AM, SIGHTINGS: EPISODE #3013 (English weirdness;
aliens; psychic sculpture; premonition)
Friday, January 15. 11:00 AM.,SIGHTINGS: EPISODE #3014 (psychics in Russia;
crop circles; ghosts of the Oregon Trail)
Next Tuesday, January 19, 11:00 AM,, SIGHTINGS: EPISODE #3015 (haunted
highway; UFOs; psychic detective; "hearing" sights, "smelling" sounds, etc.)
Next Wednesday, January 20, 11:00 AM, SIGHTINGS: EPISODE #3016 (exorcism;
Orson Welles and voodoo; Earth energy; Gaia; alien abduction)
Next Thursday, January 21, 11:00 AM, SIGHTINGS: EPISODE #3017 (USS Franklin D.
Roosevelt encounter; past lives; time travel)
Next Friday, January 22, 11:00 AM, SIGHTINGS: EPISODE #3018 (UFO and crash of
P-51; spontaneous human combustion; rumors about the Denver airport)

SYNDICATED

Next Thursday, January 22, MONTEL WILLIAMS: psychic Sylvia Browne
___________________________

This is Bufo saying, "If =everything= seemed normal, that =would= be weird!"
____________________________

You can stop receiving this from me just by asking (note: it is commonly
redistributed, and I can't control you getting it from those sources) by
e-mail at BufoCalvin@aol.com.  You can also subscribe or unsubscribe to
Bufo's WEIRD WORLD Media Alert the same way. Also, please let me know if
there is something in the media you think I should cover. Deadline is Tuesday, t
he week before.





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 10

                   Re: UFO Cults - A research question...

From: John W. Ratcliff <jratclif@inlink.com>
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 10:46:23 -0600
Fwd Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 13:20:51 -0500
Subject: Re: UFO Cults - A research question...



>From: Scott Carr <sardonica@erols.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: UFO Cults - A research question...
>Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 12:51:14 -0800

>I am beginning to devote a great deal of time to studying the
>cult phenomenon

<snip>

I guess it's just my queer perspective, but I always begin to
get a little uneasy when the term "cult" gets bandied about.
Not that I don't believe in cults, and not that I don't think
they are worth paying attention to, but rather how this
derogative term is used demonize one person's belief system
against another's.

Let's be completely fair.  UFO cults include all versions of
Judaism, Christianity (with a strong paranormal contribution by
Catholicism), Mormonism, and Hinduism.  These are powerful cults
with belief systems so far whacked out that the Urantia book
seems sane and sober by comparison. They include visionary
experiences, UFO encounters, miracles of faith, fictional
histories, imaginary entities, and all manner of bizarre
paranormal belief systems.  The dogma of these groups flies in
the face of all that we have learned through the scientific
method and careful study of human history.  Moreover, these
cults directly deny experiential reality, defying in their dogma
basic fundamental scientific facts of reality.

These cults are massive, with members combined in the billions,
they control people's minds, bodies, and spirit.  Most of them
utilize brainwashing through cult indoctrination from birth.
They use extortionist threats to force their members to tithe
money so that these cults can grow to become massive
institutional powers.

Mormonism which started with one stupid alien abduction/UFO
encounter/visionary experience then spawned a massive cult
followed by millions and worth billions.  Christianity, which if
only Saul of Taurus not had a powerful contact experience, would
have hopefully died out with the massacre in 70ad.  Instead
human history has been savaged by this cult for nearly 2,000
years.

So, my question in all of this, is why do we piddle about a
handful of people who form belief systems based on UFO
experiences, visions, encounters, or just empirical research by
members of this list?  Why do we label them 'cults', when their
belief systems pale in comparison to the mainstream cults of
conventional religions?

Yes, there is the occasional group, like Heavens Gate or Solar
Temple, who commit mass suicide based, almost always, upon the
controlling influence of a singular dominant leader.  Some
individual who controls and dominates their lives.  This is a
concern whatever the belief system is based in, whether it's
Jesus Christ as promoted by the likes of David Koresh, or space
aliens as promoted by little Bo and Peep.  However, in most
instances these are adults making conscious decisions of their
own free will.  If they have a particular belief system which
includes offing themselves to reach some higher spiritual plane,
who am I to criticize?  Well, I criticize about the time
children are involved, thus explaining my deep concern about
these massive cult indoctrination camps which are exercised
across the country known as "Sunday School."  Breeding ground
for a life time of pain and suffering at the hands of powerful
religious cults bent on controlling every aspect of their human
lives, from birth till death.

Crafting a belief system around Atlantis, UFOs, or spirit
guides, is no more cult like than crafting one around Jesus
Christ, Joseph Smith, the Virgin Mary, or those weirdoes that
used to fly around in Vimannas.

Let's either stop throwing this term 'cult' around in an effort
to demonize a group's belief system, or let's be fair, call a
spade a spade, and focus on the truly influential cults of the
world, the largest and most powerful, starting with the Pope an
his edicts, and ending with the fanatical followers of Islam.

John W. Ratcliff
Hysterical Anti-Religious Zealot and Cult Leader Of One





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 10

                 Harmonics of the Earth and the "Beam Ships"

From: From: Mark Cashman <mcashman@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 12:34:50 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 14:32:21 -0500
Subject: Harmonics of the Earth and the "Beam Ships"

>Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 13:58:33 -0600
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Michael Christol <mchristo@mindspring.com>
>Subject: Re: Fox TV Special

>>>They verified that the sounds resonated at the same frequency
>>>when they harmonized, as the earth

(Roger replied)

>>I do have a musical background, but for the life of me I'm not
>>quite sure what this means or what its significance is. I'm not
>>casting doubts on what you are saying; on the contrary, I don't
>>really even understand it. Can you fill me in? And if not, is
>>there a more accomplished musician on the list that can?

(Michael replied back)

>It seems that the power system which propels the Beam Ship,
>resonates on the same frequency as that of the earth.

>So, this would explain why the vehicle could operate so well
>within the atmosphere of this planet.

>Apparently the propulsion system is capable of acclimating
>itself to the planetary field within which it is operating.

This is just nonsense.

Please, think about this.

First, what does it mean to say that "the power system which
propels the Beam Ship resonates on the same frequency as the
earth"?

There is no question that the earth, as a solid body in space,
vibrates. However, it has an extremely complex vibration which
is based on its layered structure, discontinuities, various
gravitational deformations generated by tides, and the various
shocks produced, essentially at random, by tectonic activity.

Given that, no doubt there are many frequencies which are
harmonic to the state of oscillation of the earth at any point
in time. So what? I imagine the 60Hz frequency of the American
power grid can be fit into its harmonic structure somewhere.
Does that mean anything with regard to the operation or
effectiveness of our AC power grid? Of course not.

Contrary to the assertion "So, this would explain why the
vehicle could operate so well within the atmosphere of this
planet", I must point out that aircraft, which have no known
relationship to "the... frequency [of] the earth" operate just
fine within the atmosphere of our planet. Also, that our
spacecraft operate just fine on Mars and the moon, both of which
no doubt have a somewhat different harmonic spectrum from that
of the earth.

And, finally, how can one say "Apparently the propulsion system
is capable of acclimating  itself to the planetary field within
which it is operating." There is no such thing as a planetary
field. Planets have magnetic fields, but that's about it. Yet in
the preceeding discussion we were talking about acoustics -
sound frequencies and resonances. There is no such thing as a
"sound field" except to the audio engineer, and that expression
is simply used when discussing the perceived placement of audio
sources in the output from multiple speakers. And, of course,
such a statement would require an observation of the "Beam Ship"
away from earth, and, in that environment, measurement of its
propulsion system's "resonant frequency" (whatever that means in
the context of propulsion) and the measurement of the same
characteristics in the neighborhood of the earth, and a
determination that they differ. Yet there is no indication that
such measurements have been accomplished. :-)

I don't wish to pick on Michael specifically, but this is the
kind of New Age blather that we are constantly subjected to.
Michael didn't know the nature of the motion of the Moon around
the Earth and yet now he tells us all about the Beam Ships and
the resonance of their power systems with the earth's acoustics.
He speaks about sound as if it were electromagnetism, and states
as facts principles which have absolutely no meaning in science.

Putting statements next to each other does not demonstrate that
they have any relationship, causal or otherwise. The three
statements cited do not have any relationship, despite their
claim to prove something ("so this would explain","apparently").

(sigh)

------
Mark Cashman, creator of The Temporal Doorway at
http://www.temporaldoorway.com
- Original digital art, writing, and UFO research -

UFO cases, analysis, classification systems, and more...
http://www.temporaldoorway.com/ufo.htm
------
Ufoseek@aol.com
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 12:15:57 EST
To: Updates@globalserve.net, Phikent@aol.com, CNINews1@aol.com,
Subject: UNEXPLAINEDWORLD.com Chatcast Live Presents


http://www.unexplainedworld.com

UNEXPLAINEDWORLD.com Chatcast Live Presents

For the first time in the History of the World there is a talk
show that's not on the radio. ChatCast Live is like a talk show
except in a chat room. Hosted by Paranormal Expert Ruben Meyer
you can ask the guest questions, or just read the Unexplained.
There are guests, paranormal news updates, or you can just chat
and get your opinion across to the many other people watching
the ChatCast Live. ChatCast Live is on Friday night from 9pm -
11pm and on Saturday Night from 9pm - 11pm Eastern Standard
Time. The First UnexplainedWorld Chat Cast Live is on Friday
January 15th, 1999

So tune in and learn the truth!

SCHEDULE


~

January 15 1998

MATTHEW ALPER

Author of "The God Part of the Brain"

The Human Mind can not comprehend the idea of being mortal.
Therefore the human brain evolved and grew a God Part. From this
section of the Brain comes worship,and the need for a god.
www.GodPart.com

~

January 22 1998

HOWARD WEINSTEIN

Naval Submarine Service. Weinstein was on the same submarine as
J H Patton who was the technical advisor to the movie, The Hunt
for Red October.

~

January 23 1998

DR. MICHIO KAKU

Theoretical Physicist studying the Theory of Everything. Dr.
Michio Kaku is the author of seven books including two
international best sellers. He is now the host of Explorations,
a weekly radio program in New York. Dr Michio Kaku has appeared
on Coast to Coast AM, Larry King Show, 60 Minutes, Good Morning
America, PBS Nova, and many other shows.
www.dorsai.org/~mkaku

 ~

January 29 1998

JEFF NYQUIST

Author of the "The Origins of the Fourth World War". Jeff
Nyquist is an expert in the Russian Military and Russian
Conspiracies. Jeff Nyquist was on Coast to Coast AM.

__________________________________________________

UNEXPLAINEDWORLD.com Chatcast Live Presents:
http://members.aol.com/ufoseek/unxplain.htm

Keeping you informed with the latest UFO and alternative News:
UFOSEEK... For the Source!  www.ufoseek.org









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 10

                       Re: FOX Hoax Special - Reaction

From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 13:08:05 +0000
Fwd Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 14:35:16 -0500
Subject: Re: FOX Hoax Special - Reaction


>From: Steven W. Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
>Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 07:52:26 -0500
>Fwd Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 10:30:48 -0500
>Subject: Re: FOX Hoax Special - Reaction

>>From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
>>Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 09:52:18 +0000
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>Subject: FOX Hoax Special - Reaction

Previously, I had written:

>>Santilli probably spent no more than $20,000 on the AA footage
>>altogether and that it would be peanuts at double that price
>>($40,000).

<snip>

>>It is understandable that many would think the moviemaking
>>process is expensive; it can be with big name stars and the
>>like. But the fact is that I've directed low budget features
>>running 90 to 120 minutes for prices ranging from $50,000 to
>>$120,000. Incidently, the one for $120,000 dollars was a poorly
>>scripted Horror film called "Forever Evil" (United
>>Entertainment/VCI Home Video). It starred absolutely no one
>>famous; all unknowns. It has played on the USA network at least
>>twice that I know of and, last I checked, had grossed over 2
>>million dollars. Therefore, if decent production values can be
>>maintained on a 120 minute film at $120,000, then it stands to
>>reason having $20,000 to $40,000 to produce only a few minutes
>>of crap like the AA footage would be a windfall, even if
>>Santilli had to hire someone to produce it for him. Believe me,
>>Santilli had every reason to believe that he'd make serious
>>money off his little hoax. Come to think of it, if everyone
>>involved was in a profit sharing arraingement, they'd have
> >plenty of good reasons to keep their mouhts shut!

Steven replied:

>A number of estimates regarding the production cost of producing
>the Santilli "film" were posted by "experts" in special effects.
>I put that in quotes because one often doesn't know who the
>other person is making the statement, and at some point you have
>to either accept their comments or reject them.  Estimates
>ranged up to six figures, and down to about $50K.

<snip>

>You raise good reasons to be skeptical of the Santilli "film",
>but I see no proof here.   There is no reason for the Santilli
>"film" to be given any additional publicity or discussion unless
>there is something new to add to the mix.

I tend to agree that Santilli should not be given any more
"free" publicity regarding AA as a result of these discussions.
However, I do believe that what I've outlined does add something
quite valuable to the mix, as you put it.

If nothing else, it helps to dispel popular myths that otherwise
add unwarranted validity to Santilli's claim's about the AA
footage regarding expense, risk, and technical accuracies.

People deserve the truth regarding these topics so that they can
form an educated opinion and not have to sort through all the
mythology and false technical info regarding AA.

Take care,

Roger Evans





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 10

                    Re: The Credibility of Edgar Fouche'

From: Tim Matthews <matthews@zetnet.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 06:38:21 -0000
Fwd Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 14:38:39 -0500
Subject: Re: The Credibility of Edgar Fouche'


>From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
>Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 09:30:17 +0000
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: The Credibility of Edgar Fouche'

>>From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@connectmmic.net>
>>Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 19:38:22 -0500
>>Fwd Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 23:11:30 -0500
>>Subject: Re: The Credibility of Edgar Fouche'

>>>From: Tim Matthews <matthews@zetnet.co.uk>
>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: The Credibility of Edgar Fouche'
>>>Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 23:10:30 -0000

>Previously, Tim had declared:

>>>Not slander, just a request for some proof.....

>>>Do you or your husband have a view on Senator Moynihans' recent
>>>comments that scientific advances cannot be hidden for more than
>>>a few years??

>Serge responded:

>>I have asked you, on
>>this List, a couple of times, a few pointed questions based
>>"specifically" on this secret hidden technology paradox inherent
>>to your research-claims: you never answered the damn questions.

Do you know how many emails I get daily - at least 200! Re-ask
the questions and I'll try to answer them!

How does your response affect the credibility of Mr Fouche and
"associates"?

Not one bit.

>>Surprised - well, not really, rather pissed off - when you take
>>this rabbit out of the hat:

>>>NO! Just to ask serious and detailed questions about his
>>>"evidence", which by any standards can best be described as
>>>hearsay.

>I couldn't agree more, Serge.

>I, too, have questioned Tim about his "I've got a secret in my
>pocket that can prove all my claims" approach to debate. Several
>times he said he was going to send me some technical info that
>he didn't feel comfortable releasing on the list. Never got it.
>When I brought this up on the list, he sent me an email claiming
>his computer was down and he'd get back to me later, or
>something as such. I'll let you guess the end to this vapor-ware
>charade.

This is just complete and unadultered drivel from somebody who
should know better. Anyway, my book's out in a few weeks so you
can buy that and whinge about it.

Stick to the point, or more specifically the points under review.....

>By the way, if you look in MY pocket, you'll find out who killed
>JFK!

>No...not that pocket. That's reserved for Roswell.

>No...not that pocket, that's where I keep the secrets of
>Stonehenge.

>Hey, I need a bigger coat!<G>

Incredible - must have been in Ufology for too long!





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 11

                    Re: The Credibility of Edgar Fouche'

From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 15:30:23 +0000
Fwd Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 09:46:04 -0500
Subject: Re: The Credibility of Edgar Fouche'


>From: Tim Matthews <matthews@zetnet.co.uk>
>Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 06:38:21 -0000
>Fwd Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 14:38:39 -0500
>Subject: Re: The Credibility of Edgar Fouche'

>>From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
>>Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 09:30:17 +0000
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>Subject: Re: The Credibility of Edgar Fouche'

>>>From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@connectmmic.net>
>>>Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 19:38:22 -0500
>>>Fwd Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 23:11:30 -0500
>>>Subject: Re: The Credibility of Edgar Fouche'

Previously, Serge had written:

>>>I have asked you, on
>>>this List, a couple of times, a few pointed questions based
>>>"specifically" on this secret hidden technology paradox inherent
>>>to your research-claims: you never answered the damn questions.

<snip>

>>>Surprised - well, not really, rather pissed off - when you take
>>>this rabbit out of the hat:

>>>>NO! Just to ask serious and detailed questions about his
>>>>"evidence", which by any standards can best be described as
>>>>hearsay.

My response had been:

>>I couldn't agree more, Serge.

>>I, too, have questioned Tim about his "I've got a secret in my
>>pocket that can prove all my claims" approach to debate. Several
>>times he said he was going to send me some technical info that
>>he didn't feel comfortable releasing on the list. Never got it.
>>When I brought this up on the list, he sent me an email claiming
>>his computer was down and he'd get back to me later, or
>>something as such. I'll let you guess the end to this vapor-ware
>>charade.

Tim defends his position:

>This is just complete and unadultered drivel from somebody who
>should know better. Anyway, my book's out in a few weeks so you
>can buy that and whinge about it.

>Stick to the point, or more specifically the points under review.....

While you may consider it drivel, it was none the less correct,
wasn't it? In fact, only because of this post did you finally
send me the info that, I assume, you were referring to quite
some time back.

For the record, I have no opinion regarding Ed Fouche'. However,
I do feel that you should practice what you preach when you make
demands that someone respond to your questions or request for
proof. _That_ was the point under review for my post. Nothing
else was implied.

Later,

Roger Evans





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 11

                             Re: Fox TV Special

From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 15:48:02 +0000
Fwd Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 09:49:57 -0500
Subject: Re: Fox TV Special


>From: Michael Christol <mchristo@mindspring.com>
>Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 17:19:09 -0600
>Fwd Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 22:15:40 -0500
>Subject: Re: Fox TV Special

>>From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
>>Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 17:05:24 +0000
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>Subject: Fox TV Special

Previously, Michael wrote:

>>>It seems that the power system which propels the Beam Ship,
>>>resonates on the same frequency as that of the earth.

>>>So, this would explain why the vehicle could operate so well
>>>within the atmosphere of this planet.

>>>Apparently the propulsion system is capable of acclimating
>>>itself to the planetary field within which it is operating.

My response:

>>Frankly, it all sounds like psuedo-scientific gobbledy-gook. I
>>didn't even know that the earth resonated, at all. Do our NASA
>>rockets' propulsion systems also resonate the same as the earth.
>>Is that why they operate so well within our atmosphere? Is such
>>a a thing required in the aerospace industry? I read the words
>>but still don't understand.

Michael takes another stab at it:

>Grin...No Roger, that is not why NASA rockets operate the way
>the do...grin...

>Apparently, you as a musician have forgotten the law of
>Harmonics... Everything vibrates at a certain frequency...
>Change the frequency of vibration of the object and you change
>the object... This has been demonstrated many times....play
>musical notes, and this generates a corresponding Color which
>can be used in a Kaleido- scopic display of sound and music.

<snip>

>I hope you take this in the Spirit in which it is written,
>Roger...Just pure clean humor...

Of course, Michael.

In return let me say that your explanation, though absurd, is
none the less "Christol" clear.<G>

And all this time I thought you were serious about this
harmonics stuff.....

Take care,

Roger Evans






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 11

                   Re: UFO Cults - A research question...

From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 17:27:43 +0000
Fwd Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 09:52:27 -0500
Subject: Re: UFO Cults - A research question...


>From: John W. Ratcliff <jratclif@inlink.com>
>Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 10:46:23 -0600
>Fwd Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 13:20:51 -0500
>Subject: Re: UFO Cults - A research question...

>>From: Scott Carr <sardonica@erols.com>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>Subject: UFO Cults - A research question...
>>Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 12:51:14 -0800

Previously, Scott had written:

>>I am beginning to devote a great deal of time to studying the
>>cult phenomenon

John responded:

>I guess it's just my queer perspective, but I always begin to
>get a little uneasy when the term "cult" gets bandied about.
>Not that I don't believe in cults, and not that I don't think
>they are worth paying attention to, but rather how this
>derogative term is used demonize one person's belief system
>against another's.

<snip>

>Crafting a belief system around Atlantis, UFOs, or spirit
>guides, is no more cult like than crafting one around Jesus
>Christ, Joseph Smith, the Virgin Mary, or those weirdoes that
>used to fly around in Vimannas.
>
>Let's either stop throwing this term 'cult' around in an effort
>to demonize a group's belief system, or let's be fair, call a
>spade a spade, and focus on the truly influential cults of the
>world, the largest and most powerful, starting with the Pope an
>his edicts, and ending with the fanatical followers of Islam.

(I know this is drifting away from topic, ebk. Sorry.)

Hi, John.

In many respects I totally agree with your assessment. I'm not
very religious as I personally take issue with many of the
"control" aspects that seem to be at the heart of most organized
religions. Beyond that, I've always wondered how far science
would be now if the Catholic church hadn't censured key
scientists centuries ago.

But to be fair, I think mainstream media uses the term "cult"
when talking about groups that live via a "doomsday" credo.
Granted, even Christianity expounds about the coming of
Revelations and the end of man. However the taking of one's own
life, or someone else's, isn't an everyday part of bringing
about prophecies with your basic "white-bread" religions such as
Christianity or Judism.

Are mainstream organized religions harmful? They certainly can
be, depending on the individual and their need to be accepted or
involved. But this is really more of a reflection of the
individual's flaws and a given religion's desire to capitalize
on this situation.

My sister is very religious and happy and well adjusted as are
many people that I know. They tolerate and care about me even
though I'm a pagan! But your point is well taken. We should keep
our eyes open for any group that makes "control" an issue and
seeks power over the masses whether they be served by angels on
wings or aliens on jet packs.

Later,

Brother Roger





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 11

                             Re: Fox TV Special

From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net>
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 13:18:20 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 09:59:00 -0500
Subject: Re: Fox TV Special


>From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: Fox TV Special
>Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 00:28:49 -0500

I may have said something confusing here. At one point, I wrote:

>Musical notes don't generate colors. The vibrations of sound --
>relatively slow vibrations of air molecules -- have no relation
>to light. There's no way at all to translate the wavelengths of
>sound into light.

And then, a little later, I seemed to contradict myself:

>It's possible, of course, to build a machine or create a piece
>of software that translates sound into color (I have a screen
>saver that does this), but the translation is totally arbitrary.

I could have been much clearer. I meant to say that nature
provides no way to translate sound into light. They're
completely different phenomena, with no intrinsic relationship.
Sounds have no relationship, in purely physical terms, with
colors. You can't prove that a particular frequency of sound is
equivalent to a particular frequency of light.

But you _can_ create arbitrary equivalents. You can build a
machine or a piece of software that will produce light when it
senses sound. If you create something like this, you can decide
that a given sonic frequency should generate a bright green
light. But that connection is completely arbitrary. It's just
your own choice. You could just as well have decided that the
frequency should generate red light, or no light at all.

Anyone who disagrees with me should contact the company that
makes Gizmos software. Gizmos is a package that includes
delightful solitare games, useful calculators, and other tools
and toys, all designed to look and sound quite elegant. Among
the toys is a screensaver that creates a lightshow when you play
an audio CD on your CD-ROM drive. I'm sure the Gizmos folks
would be thrilled to know that they'd tapped into the secrets of
the universe.

(Just don't remind them that they allow us to configure the
lightshow so it works the way _we_ want.)

Greg Sandow





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 11

                                     Re:

From: Patricia Mason <pmason@ee.net>
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 13:52:10 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 10:02:05 -0500
Subject: Re:


[This page includes a great graphic of space debris. If you
can't see it in this email, it's worth going to the web site to
see....P]


http://www.aero.org/cords/sdbasics.html


Space Debris Basics

Tracked objects in Earth orbit as of 12/12/97. The red dots are
debris; the green dots are operational spacecraft. Image was
made available by Satellite Orbit Analysis Program (SOAP).

What is orbital debris?
What are the risks posed by orbital debris?
What are debris clouds?
How can risk be controlled?
What is the future trend?


What's New | CORDS Overview | Space Debris Basics
Reentry Breakup Basics | Aerospace Expertise | Focused Research
Assuring a Successful Mission | Upcoming Events | Links to Other Sites
Contact CORDS | CORDS Home


[ Home | Site Map | News | Search | Feedback ]
[ Corporate Overview | What We Do | Technical Activities | Publications
  | Employment | Locations ]

Copyright, 1995-1998 The Aerospace Corporation
Send any questions or comments regarding this service to webmaster@aero.org
Last modified on July 7, 1998






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 11

                             Re: Fox TV Special

From: Michael Christol <mchristo@mindspring.com>
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 12:56:39 -0600
Fwd Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 10:06:59 -0500
Subject: Re: Fox TV Special


>From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: Fox TV Special
>Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 23:54:39 -0500

>How does one determine the resonant frequency of the earth? And
>if one could, what would that have to do with music?

>Musical sounds, I might add, don't normally have any one
>frequency. They're enormously complicated, with frequencies all
>up and down the spectrum sounding simultaneously. Not only that,
>the frequencies change with time. I have software that can
>display this rather neatly. If I had a recording of the sounds
>allegedly made by Meier's alien ships, I could put it in digital
>form on my hard drive, and analyze it with my software. The
>result would almost certainly be a bewildering forest of spikes,
>each representing a small stretch of the frequency spectrum,
>some higher than others, but no single one sticking out above
>the rest. (The software I'm using, for those who might be
>curious, is the Spectrum Analysis plugin for Sound Forge. Sound
>Forge is a standard professional-level digital audio editing
>program for PCs.). A single cello note, apparently sounding a
>single pitch, turns out to have well over a hundred frequency
>components that show up on the spectrum graph. The sound of the
>"beamships" was, I'm guessing, far more complex than that.)

>And if the alleged sound of the ships wasn't musical -- if, in
>other words, it's what we'd call "noise," rather than music --
>then its frequency spectrum would be even more complicated. How
>could it match the resonant frequency of a piece of tin foil,
>let alone the earth?

>We're dealing here with mystical blather.


Greg...

Do you have a copy of the video 'Contact?' It is the
investigation of the Billy Meier case by Wendelle Stevens, Lee
and Britt Elders, and Tom Welch...

This video has the sounds on it...It has a short blurb of the
sounds early on as the explain where the recordings were taken
by Poppi and Billy.

Later in the video, is where they actually analyze the sounds.
One must remember that this analysis of the Meier case occurred
over a five year case, and the video itself was copyrighted in
1986.

A lot has changed in technolgy in the past twelve years, but the
foundations were laid at that time for even more "serious"
investigations today, with the most up to date electronic
equipment available....

The equipment you possess, it seems to me, an untrained
technician, to be adequate to substantiate the aspect of the
sounds which would answer the charges you have made, as well as
those I have suggested.

The sounds were taken to Electronics Consultant Nils Rognerud
and Sound Engineer Steve Amborse for examination, according to
the 'CONTACT' Video...

However, the book, 'UFO Contact From The Pleiades, A Prleiminary
Investigation', By Wendelle Stevens, says the following:

"At Excaliber Studios on Ventura Boulevard in Studio City,
California, Nils rognerud and Steve Singer, sound engineer and
electronics system designer, working together with a
Hewlett-Packard model 3580 Frequency Spectrum Analyzer, with
amemory unit, a Two-channel Oscilloscope, a Multi-track Mixer
and Amplitude Readout and Full Frequency Sound Control Board,
studied and analyzed a 3-minute segment of the later spacecraft
sounds that were recorede in front of 15 witnesses."

Continuing from the Stevens Investigative Report:

"Mr. Nils Rognerud of the Rognerud Research and Development
Company of Los Angeles, advised me in his letter Dated 12
December, 1981, 'Regarding the taped UFO sounds from the Swiss
case, I found a very complex and changing sound pattern. The
sounds were somewhat changed through poor tape duplication
effort vis microphone. In future, try to use direct wire or
cable-link between tape recorders when duplicating. Microphones
are a link that one sometimes can do without. However, I did
retrieve some information that should be of some value. The
sound pattern is very dynamic and changing, and the only thing
that seemed to have a repeatable pattern was an
amplitude-modulation (a signal in which the volume is varied at
a low periodic rate). For the three UFO recordings, this
frequency worked out to be 4.9 cycles per second, 4.6 cycles per
second, and 5.0 cycles per second. It is woethwhile revealing
that Nicola Tesla discovered a natural electro-magnetic
resonance of Earth at 6.6 chcles per second. A second gentleman
named Schulman also discovered a second resonance at 7.8 cycles
per second. Now you mention that your tape was running a bit
slow. This could explain why the vibrations are a little bit
slower than expected.'"

Continuing....after the introduction of the Excaliber Studios
part of the book....

"As before, they found them to be truly unique in at least the
following aspects:

1. There were many, at least 30 or more, discrete frequencies in
a random and constantly shifting mix in ranges from 4 to 2170
Hz, but averaging 470 to 1452 Hz.

2. The amplitude of these frequencies also constantly changed
whereas one would be dominant for a moment and then dominance
would shift to another.

3.The wave form also changed constantly, and would come into and
go out of synchronizaton i a random periodic rhythm that
produced a characteristic
beat.

"Two other sound engineers and a sound shnthesizer specialist
joined the analysis team and the sounds were re-examined with a
view to possible duplication. These specialists all agreed that
the sounds were unique in character, and that any synthesis, if
at all possible, could only reproduce parts of the whole
soundtrack we were examining; and that duplication of any part
of the whole sound, even in short linear segment may be
impossible. The number of discrete frquencies, constantly
shifting, and the migrating and constangly changing amplitudes,
shifting in relative dominance, presented problems in
duplication beyond the capability of present state-of-the art
equipment.

"Sometimes the multiple waveform characteristics were so alike
that they fell right on top of each other making one heavy wave
trace of many fine lines. Sometimes the wave form was perfectly
symmetrical, and sometimes it was totally asymmetrical. Then the
waves would go out of shnchroniza- tion again and there was no
pattern at all.

"An overall beat was noticed at about 4 to 6 Hz, which just
happens to be the natural resonance of Earth. This may become
significant in future analysis.

"After some 4 hous of testing these sound it was generally
agreed that they were truly unique and that they were not
produced by any mundane source."

More could be written on this, Greg, but this is enough for now.
I would suggest that if you are really interested in proving or
disproving the reality of these sound recordings, that you do
your own research and not just reply to one message on this
list.

REgards, Mike








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 11

                             Re: Fox TV Special

From: Michael Christol <mchristo@mindspring.com>
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 14:04:30 -0600
Fwd Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 10:10:11 -0500
Subject: Re: Fox TV Special


>From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: Fox TV Special
>Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 00:28:49 -0500

>Excuse me?????????

>I suppose I should apologize for discussing this piecemeal, as I
>scroll through messages that keep speeding further from reality.
>But let me introduce myself as a music critic for the Wall
>Street Journal, a member of the graduate studies faculty at
>Juilliard, America's leading music school, and a composer who's
>worked with everything from folksingers to opera companies, as
>well as with synthesizers and digital audio.

Well Greg, I will grant you that the machine which I have seen
in action was a physical contraption.  It was invented in the
early part of this century, by Spencer Harvey Louis, and I think
it now resides in a museum, possibly in Chicago...I cannot be
sure, without looking through my information.

This machine consisted of an organ and a device which converted
the mucical notes into light patterns of various colors, so that
when one played the organ, the audience was entertained with a
vast spectrum of color and music.

Grant you a device was constructed to demonstrate this
connection between color and sound, in the visible spectrum of
our reality. Yet, there are individuals who profess to see these
colors in the auric emaninations from material things...In other
words it is an "energy."

Anything which is material would therefore produce this energy.
What is it that determines the differnece between a brick and
a log?

It is the number of atoms and molcules in the material.. Maybe I
confused the frequency with the numbers...I can do that from
time to time...that is why I prefer to have my notes in front of
me when writing on this subject.  However, to be fair, I wrote
strictly from memory in my origional post.

>This statement of Michael's is -- forgive me, Michael --
>complete and utter nonsense. I'm very sympathetic to spiritual
>beliefs, and I believe that music can have great spiritual
>power, even, very likely, healing power. But Michael's statement
>purports to describe not the spiritual meaning of music, but
>physical facts about it. Not one of those supposed facts is
>correct.

>"Everything vibrates at a certain frequency." Not even musical
>notes vibrate at one frequency. As I said in a previous post --
>and as I can easily prove with standard musical software -- even
>apparently pure musical notes consist of many frequencies at
>once. (A pure sine wave would be an exception. But you won't
>hear those outside a laboratory or a recording studio, where
>they might be used for tuning or testing, or as a component of
>sounds created on an analogue synthesizer.)

>Besides, when we talk about musical notes vibrating, we're
>talking about sound waves. Sound waves certainly vibrate. But in
>what sense does a solid object vibrate? Perhaps it does in some
>mystical sense, but that has nothing to do with the kinds of
>tangible, measurable, physical vibrations involved in music.


Sound as you are aware, ranges from far below the auditory range
of the human ear to far above it...It is like a slide kazoo....
you can slide the bar in and get one sound and slowly withdraw
it to go all the way to the other extreem, of course again
within the range of the auditory senses. But those vibrations
which we call sound, do not stop, simply because we do not hear
them...animals have a far keener sense of hearing than humans...
Vibrations, deal with energy...this enegy issues across the
entire spectrum of material existence.  Music as a product of
material expression can be made more enjoyable by adjusting the
frequency of those vibrations...To harsh and it causes us to
cringe...to soft and it puts to sleep.

>"Change the frequency of vibration of the object and you change
>the object."

>A violinist makes a violin play different notes by changing the
>way the strings vibrate. A clarinettist makes a clarinet play
>different notes by changing the way the air inside the clarinet
>vibrates. Musicians, in other words, do change vibrations that
>have some connection with their instruments.

>But how would you change the vibration of a rubber ball? Of a
>broom? Of your kitchen sink? There are some objects that
>obviously do vibrate -- a sheet of metal, to take a familiar
>example, even one formed into a tool, like the blade of a saw.
>But if you get a saw to vibrate, how does that change the saw?
>In the rural south, musicians used to play the saw as a musicial
>instrument, more or less by bowing it as if it were a violin. I
>heard somebody doing that in the New York subway just a week or
>so ago. He played the saw beautifully, changing its vibration to
>form every musical pitch necessary to play a melody. But when he
>finished, the saw hadn't changed at all.

Ok, here definitely I have misrepresented what I was saying...not
intentinally, mind you, but by confusing frequency with the number
of atoms, molecules and electrons, which compose matter.  You will
not change a clarinet by playing a frequency higher or lower, but
you would change it if you changed the moleculear structure of the
wood or plastic from which it is made. <g>

>"play musical notes, and this generates a corresponding Color
>which can be used in a Kaleido- scopic display of sound and
>music."
>
>Oh, Michael, Michael...where did you ever learn such a thing?

Again, I stick by this, based on the machines I have seen
produce these colors and sounds....

>Musical notes don't generate colors. The vibrations of sound --
>relatively slow vibrations of air molecules -- have no relation
>to light. There's no way at all to translate the wavelengths of
>sound into light. If you play a note, no color physically
>appears in the air or in your eye. Musicians often associate
>musical notes with colors, but it's well known that they never
>agree on which colors correspond to which notes. The association
>of notes and colors is entirely subjective.

You are correct...play a note and no color appears in the air..
yet, as previously said by both of us, you can construct devices
to project this color in to the visible spectrum... Is it not
true that the notes on the Universal musical scale cover a range
of 80 octaves???

Definitely this is a subject with which I am struggling to make
sense.

It is not my forte'...but being the defender of ideas, I jumped
into the "beamship sounds" boat, and paddled just a little to
far in preparing the foundation for the posting I made earlier
today based on the findings as expressed in Wendelle Stevens
book:  "UFO CONTACT From The Pleiades, A Preliminary
Investigation," and the video "CONTACT," which covers the tests
made on the Beam Ship sounds recorded by Billy Meier and his
Wife Poppi, at the time. I opened myself up for this post and
deserve it...<g> <blush> :-)

>It's possible, of course, to build a machine or create a piece
>of software that translates sound into color (I have a screen
>saver that does this), but the translation is totally arbitrary.
>If some sound produces a wash of red light, that's only because
>the machine or the software was designed that way. There's no
>intrinsic relation between the sound and the color red. In an
>earlier post, I mentioned the Sound Forge Spectrum Analysis
>plugin, which lets you display a visual analysis of the
>frequencies in any sound on your computer. One form of the
>display lets you see the frequencies as bands of color -- but
>you can vary the colors at will, to decide for yourself which
>colors will represent which frequencies.

You have me at a disadvantage, since I have not had the
opportunity to have "hands on experience" with changng colors to
sounds.... Here I am at your mercy.... <g>

>Michael is talking very lovingly in spiritual terms. But the
>things he's talking about aren't physical characteristics of
>sound.


You had a chance to really chew me up Greg, but you choose
not to do so...Thanks...

You are correct, I was talking in Spiritual terms...but
ultimately this Spirit reaches acorss the gulf into physical
reality...

REgards, Mike







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 11

                   Re: UFO Cults - A research question...

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 99 14:12:53 PST
Fwd Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 10:12:19 -0500
Subject: Re: UFO Cults - A research question...


>From: John W. Ratcliff <jratclif@inlink.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: RE: UFO UpDate: Re: UFO Cults - A research question...
>Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 10:46:23 -0600

>>From: Scott Carr <sardonica@erols.com>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>Subject: UFO Cults - A research question...
>>Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 12:51:14 -0800

>>I am beginning to devote a great deal of time to studying the
>>cult phenomenon

><snip>

>I guess it's just my queer perspective, but I always begin to
>get a little uneasy when the term "cult" gets bandied about.
>Not that I don't believe in cults, and not that I don't think
>they are worth paying attention to, but rather how this
>derogative term is used demonize one person's belief system
>against another's.

I agree entirely, and I'm glad you made the point.  Elsewhere in
the posting you're responding to, the term "cult" is followed by
"threat" in parentheses, as if to imply that the terms are
synonymous. In fact, the vast majority of small religious
movements -- which is what I assume our correspondent means by
"cults" -- are no more sinister than mainstream religious
groups, which themselves were dismissed as "cults" in their
formative years.  My experience with UFO "cults" -- most
recently, I spent time with the Unarians at their headquarters
in El Cajon, California -- convinces me that they are benign,
well-intentioned, and sincere, however esoteric or outlandish
their beliefs may appear to outsiders.

My friend J. Gordon Melton, an academic who has written
voluminously on new spiritual groups, defines "cult" as any
religious movement you don't happen to like.  It is a word to be
used rarely and carefully, if at all.

Jerry Clark






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 11

                   Re: UFO Cults - A research question...

From: Scott Carr <sardonica@erols.com>
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 14:54:47 -0800
Fwd Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 10:16:22 -0500
Subject: Re: UFO Cults - A research question...


>From: John W. Ratcliff <jratclif@inlink.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: UFO Cults - A research question...
>Date:  Sun, 10 Jan 1999 10:46:23 -0600

>So, my question in all of this, is why do we piddle about a
>handful of people who form belief systems based on UFO
>experiences, visions, encounters, or just empirical research
>by members of this list?

>Let's either stop throwing this term 'cult' around in an effort
>to demonize a <group's belief system, or let's be fair, call a
>spade a spade, and focus on the <truly influential cults of the
>world, the largest and most powerful, starting with the <Pope an
>his edicts, and ending with the fanatical followers of Islam.


No one was "throwing the term 'cult'" around or "demonizing a
group's belief system." I merely asked for the list's advice on
good resource material on a subject which I happen to feel is
fascinating and very worthy of research.

If you reread my original post (the start of this thread) you'll
see that I was the first to acknowledge that my query covered a
broad range of topics - sociology, psychology, closed societies,
beliefs systems, and (but not only) cults. These topics are all
related in certain ways (and very dissimilar in certain ways),
and we can only benefit from a broader understanding of the ways
in which belief systems are developed in small groups AND in
large societies.

I would certainly not call this "piddling about." Are you
suggesting that it is not worthwhile to try to understand the
reasons behind such tragedies as Heaven's Gate, Jonestown,
Branch Davidians, etc., and we should only focus on the larger
cults (i.e. mainstream religion)?

While I am certainly not a follower or advocate of any
mainstream religious belief system, I do believe that we could
only benefit from a comparison of both the large _and_ small
belief systems and cults, and that this thread is a worthwhile,
and interesting one.

-Scott C. Carr

Editor, The Flying Saucer Gazette
http://www.erols.com/sardonica

Producer, "UFO Desk"
99.5 FM WBAI, NY






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 11

                           Re: Sightings - Czarnik

From: Michael Christol <mchristo@mindspring.com>
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 17:10:31 -0600
Fwd Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 10:18:40 -0500
Subject: Re: Sightings - Czarnik


>Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 09:20:41 -0600
>From: Ron Decker <decker@wt.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Sightings - Czarnik

>Mike,

>You're welcome.  While I'm intensely interested in the UFO subject,
>and read EBK's wonderful list religiously, I seldom participate.

>Like many interested in this subject I hear stories that are not
>verifiable.  Just tales that get told and passed around.  I have
>no doubt that what my friend related to me is true.  Unfortunately
>the story doesn't seem to be able to go any further.

The people who know will not talk becuase they fear it being
traced back to them and then they loose their jobs, pensions,
and other financial perks for which they have worked so
dilligently over the years.  Not only that, but the word goes
around in their field, that they cannot be trusted with
confidential information...  I understand this...but somewhere
someone has to unite these people as a Unit and then they will
control the leverage. Until then, we just wait...<sigh>

>>If it is possible to receive direct coloberation from your
>>friend, I would be interested in doing so... I would appreciate
>>any assistance in contacting the author of the "pushing button"
>>story...

>I've already asked my friend about setting up a meeting with the
>guy who gave him the story. The NASA employee won't. Pretty
>typical.


Ok Ron...I appreciate your efforts.  _If_ something changes, I
would appreciate you letting me know...

Take care.  If I can do anything for you, just let me know..

REgards, Mike






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 11

                     Re: Art Bell - Friday, January 8/9

From: Scott Ribordy <sdr@ns.net>
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 23:18:55 GMT
Fwd Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 10:21:07 -0500
Subject: Re: Art Bell - Friday, January 8/9



>Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 16:36:10 -0500
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net>
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Art Bell - Friday, January 8/9

<snip>

>Actually I'm still waiting to see if Bell ever pays a price for
>the Hale-Bopp/Mothership series. There _is_ a connection between
>that and the deaths in the Heavens Gate Cult that neither one of
>those two irresponsible bozos (Bell and the other jamoke from
>the "Nearsight Institute" that propagated that hoax - apologies
>to Bob Shell for using his 'moniker') ever had to answer for.
>People died.


Hi John,

Pray tell, what is the transgression that Art Bell should "pay a
price" for? Consider your answer carefully lest Budd Hopkins or
a certain unnamed Webmaster be called on to pay the same price.


Regards,

Scott Ribordy
sdr@ns.net





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 11

                   Re: UFO Cults - A research question...

From: Michael Christol <mchristo@mindspring.com>
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 17:21:32 -0600
Fwd Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 10:30:06 -0500
Subject: Re: UFO Cults - A research question...


>From: John W. Ratcliff <jratclif@inlink.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: RE: UFO UpDate: Re: UFO Cults - A research question...
>Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 10:46:23 -0600

>
>>From: Scott Carr <sardonica@erols.com>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>Subject: UFO Cults - A research question...
>>Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 12:51:14 -0800

>>I am beginning to devote a great deal of time to studying the
>>cult phenomenon


John, this is a very good presentation, from my prespective. You
are correct, the word 'Cult' is used to demonize and turn
people away from one or many schools of thought.  I resent this
use of "Word Power" which these 'aggressive' people use to play
with peoples minds.  Fear is a great weapon...it if used
correctly, as you have described, it changes the whole world....

Not all people have the inner strength at this time to break
their connections to groups which many will label a cult,
because they fear the loss of direction more than they fear
being labeled...

Thanks again for your presentation.

REgards, Mike






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 11

               Re: Harmonics of the Earth and the "Beam Ships"

From: Michael Christol <mchristo@mindspring.com>
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 17:39:31 -0600
Fwd Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 10:34:07 -0500
Subject: Re: Harmonics of the Earth and the "Beam Ships"


>From: From: Mark Cashman <mcashman@ix.netcom.com>
>Subject: UFO UpDate: Harmonics of the Earth and the "Beam Ships"
>Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 12:34:50 -0500
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>

<snip>

>I don't wish to pick on Michael specifically, but this is the
>kind of New Age blather that we are constantly subjected to.
>Michael didn't know the nature of the motion of the Moon around
>the Earth and yet now he tells us all about the Beam Ships and
>the resonance of their power systems with the earth's acoustics.
>He speaks about sound as if it were electromagnetism, and states
>as facts principles which have absolutely no meaning in science.

>Putting statements next to each other does not demonstrate that
>they have any relationship, causal or otherwise. The three
>statements cited do not have any relationship, despite their
>claim to prove something ("so this would explain","apparently").

>(sigh)


Mark, see the post I made earlier today, in which I quoted from
the investigation report from Wendele Steven's book: 'UFO
Contact From The Pleiades, A Preliminary Investigation Report'.

In this post, I quoted directly from the book itself, and it can
explain, without all the stumbling and fumbling, what I have
attempted to say, but have not been able to make plain, due to
lack of educational skills. Hopefully, the post in the words of
those who did the investigative analysis will explain it in a
way which can be understood by those with Technical Backgrounds,
instead of 'we' of less understanding...

I have to say touche' to you as you once again point out that I
did not know the moon rotated on it's axis...I guess as a child,
I just didn't pay attention to this aspect in science
class...woe is me...all this time I have only shown my hillbilly
ignorance...shucks,  I guess If'n I had put shoes on my feet,
they might not have got frost bit when I went out to feed the
hawgs...Oh well, I guess my loss of four toes will teach this ole
boy to be more alert the next time...Reckon? <G>

REgards, Mike ;-)






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 11

                             Re: Fox TV Special

From: Michael Christol <mchristo@mindspring.com>
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 21:23:36 -0600
Fwd Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 10:37:48 -0500
Subject: Re: Fox TV Special


>From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: Fox TV Special
>Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 23:11:14 -0500

>I'm a music professional, and have no idea what this means. I'm
>inclined to think it doesn't mean anything.

>As for "the same group that worked with Stevie Wonder," he's
>worked with lots of musicians. And how does working with Stevie
>Wonder qualify anyone to understand the resonant frequency of
>the earth?



Just slap me on the head, I will be all right eventually,
Greg...It appears that it was just an old country boy talking
out of place...

I posted a piece this afternoon, which hopefully makes some
sense...it explains what I was trying to say here.

Read it, and maybe I will seem just a little more sensible,
but probably not...<G>

REgards, Mike






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 11

                        Secret USAF 'SETI' Projects?

From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@get2net.dk>
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 05:24:08 +0100 (MET)
Fwd Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 10:47:00 -0500
Subject: Secret USAF 'SETI' Projects?


Source: "alt.alien.visitors",

Stig

***

From: kprinter@dfw.nationwide.net (Mark Shippey)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: A secret Air Force project
Date: 11 Jan 1999 03:15:29 GMT
Organization: Nationwide Internet / 888-Nationwide

Here is an interesting one.....

Today I met an old retired Air Force officer who claims that in
the 1960s the Air Force conducted secret projects concerning
possible communcations with alien life forms.

This fellow is the Uncle of a friend who was here in town to
visit.

He said one project was called "Contour". He said that this
project involved understanding "linguistic fundamentals of
communication between different species", and that one part of
the project focused on understanding how "primates such as a
gorilla might be taught to communicate."

According to this retired officer, the Air Force was "publically
disregarding UFOs," but privately was involved in "intense
research concering inter-species communication."

He explained how one fascinating part of the project involved
taking a gorilla that had been raised amongst humans and taught
"basic sign language" back into the field to see how it related
to and communicated with wild gorillas and if the domesticated
gorilla could act as a"go-between" to communicate between the
researchers and the wild gorillas.

All of this was supposed to have happened to, "help us learn
fundamentals of language that could be helpful in communcication
with alien species."

I kid you not.

This is what he told me.





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 11

                      Re: HOT GOSSIP UK - JANUARY 1999

From: James Easton <pulsar@compuserve.com>
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 23:41:30 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 10:56:41 -0500
Subject: Re: HOT GOSSIP UK - JANUARY 1999


>From: Georgina Bruni <georgina@easynet.co.uk>
>Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 22:51:51 +0000
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: HOT GOSSIP UK - JANUARY 1999

>HOT GOSSIP UK
>JANUARY 1999


>Researcher James Easton has done some interesting research on the
>Rendlesham Forest case.  That said, he's been a little naughty, and
>anyone would think - judging from his recent Internet posts - that
>he was the only person ever to have investigated the case.  Stanton
>Friedman once said that he felt he's been "airbrushed out of the
>Roswell case" by researchers who'd built upon his work, and I wonder
>whether Jenny Randles and Georgina Bruni feel the same way.

I'm sure, as we will see, that Jenny doesn't and it wouldn't take
Sherlock Holmes to detect who is in truth feeling somewhat miffed.


>Easton's Internet posts are full of references to his own papers on
>the subject, but mysteriously fail to mention any dissenting views.
>I wonder why.

And I sometimes wonder if I live in a parallel universe...

>For those who'd like some balance, check out Jenny Randles' paper
>Seeing the Forest for the Trees (IUR, Summer Edition)....

Alternatively, those interested in the case might have cleverly
noticed the apparently concealed contents of 'Resolving
Rendlesham: New Insights and Past Claims  Examined', which
began:

I was pleased to read the recent article "Seeing the Forest for
the Trees: New Twists in the Bentwaters Case", written by Jenny
Randles.[1]

Jenny has researched the extraordinary 'Rendlesham forest' story
since early 1981 and her latest book, 'UFO Crash Landing?'[2],
is an invaluable summary of the case history.

The critical new evidence I had published earlier this year in
'Rendlesham Unravelled'[3] was a challenge to convictions,
including my own, that the case had any substance at all, let
alone the purported contact with an extraterrestrial
civilisation.

Her public response is therefore welcome as it raises issues
which need to be addressed and in doing so, the evidence
presented in this document will hopefully result in further
unravelling and understanding a complex series of events.

[...]

Reference:

[1] 'Seeing the Forest for the Trees: New Twists in the
Bentwaters Case', by Jenny Randles
International UFO Reporter (IUR), Summer 1998, pp 16-19 & 28, 30

http://www.cufos.org/IUR_article2.html
[End]


It was published in August 1998.


Also foremost in 'Pulsar Newsletter - Issue No. 1' was:

1. The 'Rendlesham forest' affair. Ministry of Defence employee
Nick Pope enters the fray.

[...]

In a statement dated 27th August, Nick Pope comments on these
latest developments -
http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates/1998/aug/m28-006.shtml[End]

Which drew attention to and addressed a statement which Georgina
Bruni had published on behalf of Nick Pope.

The newsletter was released in September 1998.


Contrary to current claims that I "mysteriously fail to mention
any dissenting views", the Jenny Randles' article was
comprehensively referenced and discussed SIX MONTHS ago.


Seems this 'Gossip' ain't so 'Hot'.

Perhaps Georgina's newsletter is not so much 'Hot Gossip' as
evidently 'Tepid Tittle-Tattle'...


>Easton is continuing to amuse serious researchers with his theory
>that the UFO seen by Lt Col Charles Halt and his team was the beam
>from the Orford Ness lighthouse.  This is despite the fact that Halt
>has made it abundantly clear that he was entirely familiar with the
>lighthouse, and had it in view throughout his encounter.

Once...if... Georgina ever gets up to speed, she might care to
further consider the following from 'Pulsar Newsletter - Issue
No. 2':

1. The 'Rendlesham forest' affair. Photographic evidence
reaffirms lighthouse was the source of UFO scares. [End]

It was published in December 1998, but take your time...


All of my published material remains archived at URL:

WWW: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/pulsar/


>There's also the fact that there were physical traces indicating that
>a structured craft had been present - damage to nearby trees, and
>indentations in the ground.  These holes were surveyed with a Geiger
>Counter, and although the actual levels are the subject of legitimate
>debate, it's not disputed that levels peaked in the holes (and on the
>nearby damaged trees), and fell away in the surrounding area.

It isn't only disputed, it's a proven fact that the 'levels
peaked' in the surrounding area unrelated to the 'UFO' incident
- see the aforementioned response and challenge to Nick Pope's
comments.

Then again, that seems to be way ahead of where Georgina's
'research' currently stands.


It's regrettable if Georgina and 'Camelot International', who I
understand can be held ultimately responsible for claims made
within 'Hot Gossip', are consummately embarrassed, however,
there's little option other than to, again, highlight the
incompetent and woeful research which comprises the 'Hot Gossip'
newsletter.



James.
E-mail: pulsar@compuserve.com






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 11

                       Flying Saucers US Patents List

From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@get2net.dk>
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 05:55:10 +0100 (MET)
Fwd Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 10:59:10 -0500
Subject: Flying Saucers US Patents List



"Cook, Roger D. (US), Flying Saucers U.S. Patents List - Dec
1998, (10 Kb) (Abstract) This report results from an extensive
survey of various Patents Databases, searching for all patents
relating to the Flying Saucers Aerospacecraft (i.e.
circular-winged, V.T.O.L. by design). Lists over 90 Patents."

http://personal.atl.bellsouth.net/bna/r/d/rdcook/mmfs98-0324.txt

Stig

***

Original-from: rdcook@bellsouth.net  (Roger D. Cook)
   Last-modified: 30 Dec 1998
    Archive-name: Man-Made Flying Saucers Patents: USA Only
        Abstract: This report results from an  extensive  survey of
                  various U.S. Patents Databases, searching for all
                  patents relating to flying saucer type aerospacecraft
                  (i.e. circular-winged and V.T.O.L. by design).
 Compilers Notes: This bibliography, and other spacedrives info, will
                  not be automatically posted but will be made available
                  via my Home Page:
                  URL: http://personal.bna.bellsouth.net/~rdcook/saucers.htm
                  Up-dating will be on a bi-annual basis, in Dec and
                  June. Reports of errors or ommissions should be sent
                  to: (Email) rdcook@bellsouth.net, or Snail-Mail to
                  Roger Cook, 6430 Charlotte Ave #1505, Nashville,
                  TN 37209 USA
 Patent Info WWW: The IBM Patent Server maintains an in-complete data-
                  base of U.S. Patents including: 1974-present with both
                  text-based data & Images, 1971-1973 text based only.
                  URL: http://patent.womplex.ibm.com/
                  The U.S. Patent Office maintains a database server
                  with a complete collection of U.S. patents for
                  1976-present, text-based only.
                  URL: http://www.uspto.gov/
Patent Info Mail: Paper copies of U.S. patents, irregardless of issue
                  date, for delivery within the United States, can be
                  ordered from the Commissioner of Patents,
                  Washington, DC, 2O231.
                  Order by Patent Number, and include $3.OO for each
                  patent copy ordered. 6 to 8 weeks delivery time.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
United States (US)
------------------

 5,730,391   Miller, John A., Jr., et al  (03/24/98)  Universal
             fluid-dynamic body for aircraft and watercraft

 5,503,351   Vass, Gabor I.  (O4/O2/96)  Circular wing aircraft

 5,351,911   Neumayr, George A.  (1O/O4/94)  Vertical takeoff
             and landing (VTOL) flying disc

 5,344,100   Jaikaram, Allan  (O9/O6/94)  Vertical lift aircraft

 5,318,248   Zielonka, Richard H. (O6/O7/94)  Vertical lift aircraft

 5,303,879   Bucher, Franz  (O4/19/94)  Aircraft with a ducted fan
             in a circular wing

 5,213,284   Webster, Steven N.  (O5/25/93) Disc planform aircraft
             having vertical flight capability

 5,203,521   Day, Terrence R.  (O4/2O/93)  Annular body aircraft

 5,178,344   Dlouhy, Vaclav  (O1/12/93)  VTOL aircraft

 5,170,963   Beck, August H., Jr.  (12/15/92)  VTOL aircraft

 5,149,012   Valverde, Rene L.  (O9/22/92)  Turbocraft

 5,102,066   Daniel, Wm. H.  (O4/O7/92)  Vertical take-off and
             landing aircraft

 5,054,713   Langley, L. W., et al  (1O/O8/91)  Circular airplane

 5,046,685   Bose, Phillip R.  (O9/1O/91)  Fixed circular wing
             aircraft

 5,039,031   Valverde, Rene L.  (O8/13/91)  Turbocraft

 4,976,395   von Kozierowski, J.  (12/11/9O)  Heavier-than-air
             disk-type aircraft

 4,824,048   Kim, Kyusik  (O4/25/89)  Induction lift flying saucer

 4,804,156   Harmon, Rodney D.  (O2/14/89)  Circular aircraft

 4,795,111   Moller, Paul S.  (O1/O3/89)  Robotic or remotely
             controlled flying platform

 4,778,128   Wright, Herbert H., et al  (1O/18/88)  Flying disc
             aircraft

 4,773,618   Ow, Gordon J.  (O9/27/88)  High speed vertical
             take-off and landing aircraft

 4,685,640   Warrington, John E.  (O8/11/87)  Air vehicle

 4,651,953   Kim, Kyusik  (O3/24/87)  Induction Lift Aircraft

 4,519,562   Willis, Wm. M.  (O5/28/85)  Aircraft

 4,457,476   Andresevitz, Frank  (O7/O3/84)  Wingless aircraft

 4,452,410   Everett, Robert A.  (O6/O5/84)  In-line gyro type
             aircraft

 4,433,819   Carrington, Alfred C.  (O2/28/84)  Aerodynamic Device

 4,387,867   Jordan, Heinz  (06/14/83)  Flying craft

 4,326,681   Eshoo, Frederick  (04/27/82)  Non-rigid airship

 4,312,483   Bostan, Nicolae  (O1/26/82)  Aircraft With Circular
             Wing

 4,214,720   DeSautel, Edwin R.  (O7/29/8O)  Flying Disc

 4,196,877   Mutrux, Jean L.  (04/08/80)  Aircraft

 4,193,568   Heuvel, Norman L.  (O3/18/8O)  Disc-type airborne
             vehicle and radial flow gas turbine engine used
             therein

 4,165,848   Bizzarri, Alfredo  (08/28/79  Rotary thrust device
             including axially elongated rotor rotatable in
             casting having elongated fluid intake and
             discharge slots

 4,117,992   Vrana, Charles K.  (10/03/78)  Vertical lift device

 4,050,652   DeToia, Vincent D.  (O9/27/77)  Gryo Foil

 4,023,751   Richard, Walter A.  (O5/17/77)  Flying Ship

 4,014,483   MacNeil, Roderick M.  (O3/29/77)  Lighter-than-air
             craft

 3,933,325   Kaelin, Joseph R.  (O1/2O/76)  Disc-Shaped Aerospacecraft

 3,871,602   Kissinger, Curtis D.  (03/18/75)  Circular wing aircraft

 3,774,865   Pinto, Olympio F.  (11/27/73)  Flying Saucer

 3,75O,98O   Edwards, Samuel L.  (O8/O7/73)  Aircraft with vertical
             take off and landing capability

 3,697,020   Thompson, Raymond V.  (1O/1O/72)  Vertical lift machine

 3,690,597   Di Martino, Renato  (O9/12/72)  Vertical take-off
                landing aircraft having a pair of coaxial
                counter-rotating rotors etc.

 3,640,489   Jaeger, Karl  (O2/O8/72)  Vertical takeoff and landing
                aircraft

 3,630,470   Elliot, Frederick Thomas  (12/28/71)  VERTICAL TAKEOFF
             AND LANDING VEHICLE

 3,614,O3O   Moller, Paul S.  (1O/19/71)  Aircraft

 3,612,445   Phillips, Duan A.  (1O/12/71)  LIFT ACTUATOR DISC

 3,599,9O2   Thomley, John W.   (O8/17/71)  Aircraft

 3,5O3,573   Modesti, James N.  (O3/31/7O)  Disk Flying Craft

 3,469,802   Roberts, J. R., et al  (09/30/69)  Transport

 3,437,29O   Norman, Francis A.  (O4/O8/69)  Vertical lift aircraft

 3,432,120   Guerrero, E.  (04/11/69)  Aircraft

 3,41O,5O7   Moller, Paul S.  (11/12/68)  Aircraft

 3,395,876   Green, Jacob B.  (O8/O6/68)  Aircraft With Housed
             Counter Rotating Propellors

 3,387,8O1   Kelsey, C. W.  (O6/11/68)  Vertical takeoff aircraft

 3,321,156   McMasters, Douglas Q.  (O5/23/67)  Universally manuverable
             aircraft

 3,312,425   Lennon, C. D., et al  (04/04/67)  Aircraft

 3,243,146   Clover, P. B.  (03/29/66)  Vertical-takeoff-landing aircraft

 3,237,888   Willis, William M.  (O3/O1/66)  Aircraft

 3,199,8O9   Modesti, James N.  (O8/1O/65)  Circular wing flying craft

 3,177,654   Gradecak, Vjekoslav  (O4/13/65)  Electric Aerospace
             Propulsion System

 3,124,323   Frost, John C. M.  (O3/1O/64)  Aircraft Propulsion And
             Control

 3,123,320   Slaughter, E. E.  (04/03/64)  Vertical rise aircraft

 3,103,324   Price, N. C.  (09/10/63)  High velocity high altitude
             V.T.O.L. aircraft

 3,O9O,58O   Kehlet, Alan B., et al  (O5/21/63)  Space And Atmospheric
             Re-Entry Vehicle

 3,O72,366   Freeland, Leonor Z.  (O1/O8/63)  Fluid sustained aircraft

 3,067,967   Barr, I. R.  (12/11/62)  Flying machine

 3,066,890   Price, Nathan C.  (12/04/62)  Supersonic Aircraft

 3,O65,935   Dubbury, J., et al  (11/27/62)  Vertical take-off aircraft

 3,O62,482   Frost, John C. M.  (11/O6/62)  Gas turbine engined aircraft

 3,O51,417   Frost, John C. M., et al  (O8/28/62)  Aircraft control systems

 3,O51,415   Frost, John C. M.  (O8/28/62)  Fluid sustained aircraft

 3,O51,414   Frost, John C. M.  (O8/28/62)  Aircraft with jet fluid
             control ring

 3,O24,966   Frost, John C. M.  (O3/13/62)  Radial flow gas turbine
             engine rotor bearing

 3,O22,963   Frost. John C. M., et al  (O2/27/62)  Disc-type aircraft
             with peripheral jet control

 3,O2O,OO3   Frost, John C. M., et al  (O2/O6/62)  Disc aircraft with gas
             turbine and ram jet engines

 3,O2O,OO2   Frost, John C. M.  (O2/O6/62)  Vertical take-off aircraft
             control

 3,O18,O68   Frost, John C. M., et al  (O1/23/62)  Disc Aircraft With
             Multiple Radially Disposed gas turbine engines

 2,997,254   Mulgrave, Thomas P., et al  (O8/22/61)  Gyro stabilized
             vertical rising vehicle (discoid)

 2,953,32O   Parry, Robert D.  (O9/2O/6O)  Aircraft with ducted lifting fan

 2,939,648   Fleissner, H. (6/7/60) Rotating Jet Aircraft with Lifting Disc
             Wing and Centrifuging Tanks

 2,918,23O   Lippisch, Alexander M.  (12/22/59)  Fluid Sustained And Fluid
             Propelled Aircraft

 2,927,746   Mellen, Walter R.  (O3/O8/6O)  Torodial aircraft

 2,912,244   Carr, Otis T.  (11/1O/59)  Amusment Device

 2,876,965   Streib, Homer F.  (O3/1O/59)  Circular wing aircraft with
             universally tiltable ducted powerplant

 2,863,621   Davis, John W.  (12/O9/58)  Vertical and Horizontal Flight
             Aircraft

 2,8O7,428   Wibault, Michael  (O9/24/57)  Aircraft With Enclosed Rotor

 2,8O1,O58   Lent, Constantin P.  (O7/3O/57)  Saucer-Shaped Aircraft

 2,73O,311   Doak, Edmond R.  (O1/1O/56)  Impeller Propelled
             Aerodynamic Body

 2,772,057   Fischer, John C. (11/27/56) Circular Aircraft and Control
             System Therefor

 2,619,302   Loedding, Alfred C.  (11/25/52)  Low Aspect Ratio
             Aircraft

 2,432,775   Lennon, C. D.  (12/16/47)  Rotating disc type aircraft

 2,431,293   Zimmermann, Charles H.  (11/18/47)  Airplane Of Low
             Aspect Ratio

-----ENDIT---------------------------------------------------------------





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 11

                          Rhetorical Questionnaire?

From: John W. Ratcliff <jratcliff@worldnet.att.net>
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 23:25:21 -0600
Fwd Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 11:04:52 -0500
Subject: Rhetorical Questionnaire?


Just what is a rhetorical questionnaire?  Wait, don't answer
that.  Recently I have commented on the subject of alien autopsy
hoaxing grooviness.  Not too long ago I ranted with a great deal
of spittle, spouting the fine distinction between a UFO cult, a
Jehovah cult, and a can of spam.  Since I've never done any
actual UFO research and my public presence in the UFO field has
been strictly limited to shooting my mouth off, an oozing
orifice of sarcasm, most might wonder what, if anything, I have
to say?

It is probably for this very reason that this questionnaire is
so rhetorical.  What's the purpose in answering a bunch of
nonsense written by an admitted lunatic?  Not really worth the
effort at all is it?

The reason I am posting this message (you don't have to answer
this question, I plan to tell you), is the recent developments
regarding Joseph Smith (woops, pardon me!!) I mean Joseph
Firmage, and his sudden decision to give up the good life of
working himself to death CEOing a major megabucks
super-corporation to become a bit player in UFO mythology right
around the time when that great odometer in the sky ticks over
all those way cool zeroes.

So some glowing alien dude shows up in his bedroom at night,
waxing poetically on all that is cosmic, meanwhile some
anonymous postal employee hands him a pile of dissinformational
documents, he gets all spiritual and stuff and feels compelled
to spend way too much money setting up a web site that seems to
have the express purpose of hiding all of the actual material
the casual surfer might actually want to read.

And where does that weirdo cultist John Ratcliff fit into this
equation? What's his kick?  Oh..oh..wait, I know the answer to
that one.  What tickles John's fancy ain't those silly aliens,
it ain't those super sekrit gummint intelligence agents, what
intrigues John is why folks like Firmage, Mack, Hopkins, Moses,
Saul, and others change their lives in such dramatic fashion
based on a singular psycho-spiritual experience?

Here's the questionnaire.  Since it is in fact rhetorical, all
of the correct answers are listed at the bottom of the page:

(1) Who is in charge of the UFO cover-up?

(a). The US gummint.
(b). Whoever is flying the dang UFOs.
(c). There ain't no such thing as UFOs, therefore there ain't no
     cover-up.

(2). An alien shows up in your bedroom, all glowing with light,
and says there is a great galactic federation, that humanity is
going to join up real soon, and that you, personally, should
quit your job and inform the world of these momentous events,
that you should affect world change and shape world opinion.
What do you do?

(a) Quit your job, set up a website, and devote your life to
    spreading this personal revelation to the world.
(b) Hug your kids.
(c) See a therapist.
(d) Realize that it's not your job to inform the world about the
galactic federation, you aren't even on payroll, and that _they_
are in a far better position to perform this task than you are.

(3) UFOs, if real, are....

(a) The single more important event in human history.

(b) not necessarily proof of extraterrestrial biological
entities.

(c) manifestations of Satan, demons pure and simple, straight
    from the fourth dimension.

(d) not nearly as important as how happy your children are today.

(4) A source who is deeply involved in the black government
    discloses tantalizing hints about the extraterrestrial
    presence.  This means...

(a) The final proof required to solve the mystery, the enigma,
    the riddle, that is UFO.

(b) Without evidentiary value.

(c) An interesting twist in the evolution of modern mythology.

(d) An obvious dissinformation effort by the powers which
    suppress the truth about the alien presence.

(5) An archeological discovery is made, from the dawn of early
human civilization, which provides a tale that sounds uncannily
like nuclear weapons being launched from spaceships piloted by
human like gods.  This is proof positive..

(a) That mankind is the product of a genetic engineering program
administered by ancient gods who combined alien DNA with that of
early ape men to produce modern Homo sapiens as a slave race.

(b) That early man was a primitive savage, full of superstitions
and was capable of creating rich mythologies based  on their
ignorant understanding about the world around them.

(c) The dangers of speculating beyond a hopelessly limited data
set.

(6) While gardening, a UFO lands in your back yard and an alien
steps out. You...

(a) Run screaming for the hills.
(b) Seek psychiatric help.
(c) Connect the USAF.
(d) Offer him a buckwheat pancake to see if he gets the joke.
(e) Rub your eyes and hope it goes away.
(f) Refuse to answer the question because such a thing could
    never happen.

(7) An alien being approaches you, all glowing an full of light,
and wishes to enlist you in his/her/it's program to usher
mankind into a new golden age.  You...

(a) Fall down in awe and prostrate yourself before this powerful
spiritual being.

(b) Call the alien being to task for his secretive nature and
insist that he do his own  dirty work,  pointing out that you,
being Homo sapiens and all, refuse to be party to such a
subversive agenda.

(c) Shrug the whole thing off as a bit of bad wiring in your
temporal lobe.

(8) You see a UFO, an actual flying saucer, at close range.  You
see it, and experience it in full vivid all senses Technicolor.
This is...

(a) Proof that you are going insane.
(b) Proof that you are having spontaneous hallucinations.
(c) Proof enough for yourself that UFOs are as real as rain.
(d) Proof of nothing since you cannot recreate it on demand
    under laboratory conditions.

(9) Your best friend claims to have been abducted by aliens and
experiences symptoms of shock, despair, confusion and a soul
shattering change in his personal cosmology.  This is...

(a) Proof that experiential reality is relative.  That you feel
concern for your fellow man, while at the same time remaining
confused and ambivalent about what it all means to yourself.

(b) Proof that your friend is nuts and should be put in an
institution.

(c) Proof positive of evil space aliens intent on raping humanity.
(d) Proof that your 'so called' friend is a hoaxer, liar, and jerk.

(10) Relativism is the most rational approach to experiential
reality when communicating among members of your own species.

(a) Yes.
(b) No.
(c) Maybe.

This ends the rhetorical questionnaire.  Thanks for playing our
game.  No answers, replies of any kind are necessary.  You can
check your score in the privacy of your own home.


1 (b)
2 (d)
3 (d)
4 (c)
5 (c)
6 (d)
7 (c)
8 (c)
9 (a)
10 (c)







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 11

                        Re: '92 Sighting / Australia

From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net>
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 21:55:41 -0800
Fwd Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 11:17:44 -0500
Subject: Re: '92 Sighting / Australia


Dear Sharon:

[snip]

>>Thu, 31 Dec 1998 12:01:25 -0800
>>From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net>
>>Subject: '92 Sighting

>>>From: Sharon Kardol <sharon@hotmix.com.au>
>>>To: <updates@globalserve.net>
>>>Info on '92 Sighting
>>>Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1998 11:45:10 +0800

>>>I was hoping that someone might be able to help me with some
>>>information concerning a sighting which occurred in 1992. All
>>>the information I have follows -

>><snip>

>>I regret that my only record from Endeavor Hills was on
>>09Oct1989 and obviously unrelated.

>>In the 1989 account, two observers saw a 20 foot ( 6 metre )
>>object [ poorly described ] hovering near some power lines.
>>Grass in the vicinity later died in some odd manner.

>>For fine and necessary details on this particular event, one
>>must consult Bill Chalker's book " The OZ Files", page 189.

>>There is a second source: /r123 p 231. For ten centavos,
>>I will go look that up too, but please allow time.

>>If you are short of time, please let me know in advance.

>Mr Hatch,

>Thank you for the information. I don't believe this is the same
>case, but it's interesting to know there was another sighting in
>the same area. I will have to obtain a copy of Mr Chalker's book
>for future reference (being a fellow Aussie it must be a good
>read :) ).

No problem!

The second reference (/r123 P231) was one of Timothy Good's UFO
Updates books, 1991 I believe.

Speaking of time, I have been down for ten days with computer
troubles, deep in the innards of Windows-95. If you sent further
inquiries, I probably missed them.

I am now back online at: larryhat@jps.net if you want to look up
other sightings I may have catalogued.

Best wishes

- Larry Hatch







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 11

                    Re: Australian UFO Reports - 01-11-99

From: Diane Harrison <tkbnetw@fan.net.au>
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 22:09:50 +1000
Fwd Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 11:31:59 -0500
Subject: Re: Australian UFO Reports - 01-11-99


The Keith Basterfield Network Australasia
tkbnetw@fan.net.au

****************************************************************

UFO Australian  Research Network Hot Line Number 1800 77 22 88
Free Call
****************************************************************



1800 Call In Code: 00023

Date 11th .1.1999
Day: Monday
Time Reported: 6.20pm
Source: Margaret S
Location: South Cessnock NSW
Tel 02 499
Report Given to nearest Rep: Di
E- mail  tkbnetw@fan.net.au

Message:

Hello can some one call me, I have seen  2 to 5 orange lights
going over my house for the past 6 nights.


Report: Mrs Margaret W

Said that she and her family have been seeing these orange fire
ball of lights going over her house for the past six day. She
said that she had got her son a telescope for Christmas and they
had a observed the the objects through it.

Description: Round, Firey orange, flames coming from the back of
each object, they had 4 lights in the front oblong shapped,white
in colour,

Shape: Object a disc shape .

She said they came from the East which she said is out to sea,
and went West, she stated that her neighbour came out and had a
look and ran back inside to call Williams Town  RAAF base to see
if they had any planes in the area, They said No.

Size: If you where to hold a 20cent piece up at arms length that
would be that size.

Speed: Not fast but not to slow, a plane came into view and when
this happened the bright orange lights changed to a small white
light which through the telescope I saw a circular object grey
in colour, she said " I thought this to strange".

Mrs Margaret S said that she had taken a photo of it through the
Telescope but is not to sure if they will turn out its the first
time they used the photo connection.

She is going to send me a copy and the negatives and a drawing
of the objects I hope we get something here :>)

Report Form Sent out

Ps Maybe a night watch is in order here.

Regards Diane









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 12

               Re: Harmonics of the Earth and the "Beam Ships"

From: Rick Goldsmith <rgoldsm@synapse.net>
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 12:46:20 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 09:13:12 -0500
Subject: Re: Harmonics of the Earth and the "Beam Ships"


>From: From: Mark Cashman <mcashman@ix.netcom.com>
>Subject: UFO UpDate: Harmonics of the Earth and the "Beam Ships"
>Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 12:34:50 -0500
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>


>Please, think about this.

>First, what does it mean to say that "the power system which
>propels the Beam Ship resonates on the same frequency as the
>earth"?

>There is no question that the earth, as a solid body in space,
>vibrates. However, it has an extremely complex vibration which
>is based on its layered structure, discontinuities, various
>gravitational deformations generated by tides, and the various
>shocks produced, essentially at random, by tectonic activity.

>Given that, no doubt there are many frequencies which are
>harmonic to the state of oscillation of the earth at any point
>in time. So what? I imagine the 60Hz frequency of the American
>power grid can be fit into its harmonic structure somewhere.
>Does that mean anything with regard to the operation or
>effectiveness of our AC power grid? Of course not.

Well Y'know, The earth does actually have a somewhat discreet
radio frequency that you can listen to. I recall watching one of
those weather shows on TLC and the description given this
phenomena was;  lightning strikes the earth an average of eight
( or was it four? ) times every second (8hz). The EM radiation
can actually be picked up on a low-freq. receiver as a somewhat
regular signal.

I realize, of course, this lends no credibility to Meir's claims
or Michael's arguments (nor was it meant to) but I thought the
parties concerned in this discussion would find it an
interesting, related bit of trivia.

I would also like to take this opportunity to recommend that Mr.
Christol read Carl Sagan's excellent book,"The Demon Haunted
World". I admit that some of Carl's views on the UFO subject to
be somewhat narrow but this book has a lot to say about
rational, critical thinking and the dangers inherent in being
overly credulous of claims that fit well with one's own beliefs.

R.G.







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 12

                    Re: The Credibility of Edgar Fouche'

From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@connectmmic.net>
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 13:18:29 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 09:15:18 -0500
Subject: Re: The Credibility of Edgar Fouche'



>From: Tim Matthews <matthews@zetnet.co.uk>
>To: "UFO UpDates - Toronto" <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: The Credibility of Edgar Fouche'
>Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 06:38:21 -0000

>>From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
>>Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 09:30:17 +0000
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>Subject: Re: The Credibility of Edgar Fouche'

>>>From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@connectmmic.net>
>>>Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 19:38:22 -0500
>>>Fwd Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 23:11:30 -0500
>>>Subject: Re: The Credibility of Edgar Fouche'

<snip>

>>Serge responded:

>>>I have asked you, on
>>>this List, a couple of times, a few pointed questions based
>>>"specifically" on this secret hidden technology paradox inherent
>>>to your research-claims: you never answered the damn questions.

>Do you know how many emails I get daily - at least 200! Re-ask
>the questions and I'll try to answer them!

Tim,

Good!  Then, you will finally answer the following (4th try):

>What I can't figure out is how come silent-running vehicles,
>invisible to radar, designed for atmospheric and space flight,
>capable of hovering and stationary and vertical flight, that
>reach tremendous speeds and acceleration (from 0 to 1500 knots
>in seconds), are able to outpace any known conventional craft
>and are almost invulnerable to enemy attacks have been kept in
>the cupboard for more than 50 years ?

>Do you have any incentive on that ?

BTW, it seems Roger and I have the same problem: how many times
a pertinent question must be asked to get answered.

>How does your response affect the credibility of Mr Fouche and
>"associates"?

>Not one bit.

My post pointed out the fact that you were discrediting Fouche
with questions yourself did not answer in the past.  According
to the recent post "25 Rules of Disinformation", this is #4
("the Straw Man argument") and #7 ("Question motives").  Of
course, you could be accusing me of #14 ("Demand complete
solutions"), but that would be #17 ("Change the subject") from
your part.

My 2 cents this will be lost in a 200 daily e-mails shuffle:
that will be #1 ("... don't discuss it").

As for Edgar Fouche, I suggest you pass on to him Roger's pocket
and coat argument: it does fit the bill for him... too ;0)

Please giggle: I am just applying the #1 rule of information
("If you can't have fun, this is trouble").

Serge Salvaille





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 12

                     Re: Art Bell - Friday, January 8/9

From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net>
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 13:56:28 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 09:21:00 -0500
Subject: Re: Art Bell - Friday, January 8/9

>From: Scott Ribordy <sdr@ns.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: Art Bell - Friday, January 8/9
>Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 23:18:55 GMT
>
>
>
>>Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 16:36:10 -0500
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net>
>>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Art Bell - Friday, January 8/9
>
><snip>
>
>>Actually I'm still waiting to see if Bell ever pays a price for
>>the Hale-Bopp/Mothership series. There _is_ a connection between
>>that and the deaths in the Heavens Gate Cult that neither one of
>>those two irresponsible bozos (Bell and the other jamoke from
>>the "Nearsight Institute" that propagated that hoax - apologies
>>to Bob Shell for using his 'moniker') ever had to answer for.
>>People died.
>
>
>Hi John,
>
>Pray tell, what is the transgression that Art Bell should "pay a
>price" for? Consider your answer carefully lest Budd Hopkins or
>a certain unnamed Webmaster be called on to pay the same price.


Hello Scott,

I don't respond well to 'threats' Scott. If you ever wish to
just 'talk' (maybe) we can communicate with each other. Until
then go threaten Skippy McGurk, maybe _he_ cares. In the
meantime, don't look for any future responses from me.

>Pray tell, what is the transgression that Art Bell should "pay
a >price" for?

I stated it _clearly_ in my original.  Is there a reading
comprehension problem that you have that I'm not aware of? You
ask me a question and them post the answer above it all in one
e-mail. Amazing!

The statements I made, and all other references, are in my
original. Reread it a couple of times and maybe (unless there is
some problem you have translating written words into concepts
and ideas) your poorly asked question will get answered there.

BTW, do you realize that by resorting to 'threats' it reveals
far more about _you_ than it ever does about me, your intended
target! Kinda like aiming a rubber band hoping to hit someone
else and having it snap back in ones own face. You should know
that if you engage in that kind of thing often enough, your mug
will soon begin to resemble the "before" picture in an acne
commercial.

John Velez, Webmaster IF-AIC

________________________________________________
                                jvif@spacelab.net
INTRUDERS FOUNDATION/ABDUCTION INFORMATION CENTER
                            http://www.if-aic.com
"Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind."
________________________________________________






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 12

                         APRO File Microfilm Found!

From: jan@cyberzone.net (Jan Aldrich)
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 13:26:20 -0800
Fwd Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 09:17:27 -0500
Subject: APRO File Microfilm Found!


AERIAL PHENOMENA RESEARCH ORGANIZATION FILE MICROFILM LOCATED


PROJECT 1947, the research study of the beginning of the UFO
era, announced the recovery of a large portion of the
microfilmed files of the Aerial Phenomena Research Organization
(APRO), the first worldwide civilian UFO group to be organized.
The APRO files have been inaccessible to researchers for over a
decade since the demise of thE organization following the deaths
of founders Coral Lorenzen in 1988 and Jim Lorenzen in 1986.

Founded in 1952 and already mentioned menacingly by the CIA
Robertson Panel in January 1953, APRO collected UFO data from
all over the world during its nearly four decades of existence.
APRO had an extensive UFO investigative network with
representatives in more than 50 countries, especially in South
America. In the 1970's with the aid of a small grant APRO began
microfilming its UFO sighting files. As many as three separate
microfilm reels are thought to exist. The first microfilm roll
contains reports from ancient times to December 1956. The second
microfilm confirmed to exist contains reports from December 1956
to 1962. The third microfilm, thought to exist by a number of
people but yet to be confirmed, evidently covered 1962 to 1966.

The microfilm was located through the courtesy of Brad Sparks,
long time UFO researcher and former APRO assistant director of
research. Sparks also had leads to the 2nd microfilm reel which
are now being pursued by Project 1947. After a long hiatus,
Sparks recently returned to UFO research and has written on
significant UFO topics including the well-documented RB-47 case
of 1957, the Roswell case and "MJ-12," astronaut sightings,
radar-visuals and other cases involving significant scientific
content.

The APRO material has very little overlap or duplication with
the UFO files of the old National Investigations Committee on
Aerial Phenomena (NICAP) and the Civilian Saucer Intelligence
(CSI-New York), now incorporated with the files of the Center
for UFO Studies (CUFOS) in Chicago.

Jan Aldrich, coordinator of Project 1947, remarked, "The
reports, letters, investigations, and newspaper clippings
contained in the APRO microfilm have few duplications of the
reports in the files of NICAP, CSI, CUFOS, Barry Greenwood, Dr.
Leon Davidson, or Loren Gross. Davidson had a worldwide clipping
service which provided him with large numbers of clippings from
South America. Greenwood and I have also done extensive research
in South American newspapers in the Library of Congress,
Harvard, Yale, and many other libraries. Yet the APRO South
American newspaper clippings are essentially unique compared
with what has already been collected."

The microfilm contains more than 1,000 pages of reports from
ordinary citizens, pilots, the military and others. Many of
these reports were not published in the APRO Bulletin or the
Lorenzens' books. Southwest Microfilms of El Paso, Texas,
produced the APRO file microfilm and exercised great care to
assure legibility of the material. A search for copies of the
other microfilm reels continues. Several former APRO officials
have been contacted in connection with the search.

"I was especially happy to see a number of pre-1947 reports
which I had submitted to APRO years ago, but were lost from my
files in an accident," said Aldrich. "This recovered APRO
microfilm now joins a library of more than 400 microfilm rolls
which contain official and private material on UFO's. We are now
zeroing in on the APRO microfilm files for 1957 to 1962. A long
time UFO researcher has promised it to us if his efforts to
locate it bear fruit."

This is the second large portion of the APRO files recovered and
available for research. Previously Canadian John Musgrave shared
his Canadian Collection with Project 1947. Before APRO's demise
Musgrave had copied all Canadian material in the APRO files for
his own research project. Copies of Musgrave's collection which
includes the APRO material are at CUFOS and at Project 1947.



--
Jan Aldrich
Project 1947
http://www.iufog.org/project1947/
P. O. Box 391, Canterbury, CT 06331, USA
Telephone: (860) 546-9135






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 12

                        Re: Rhetorical Questionnaire?

From: Marc Bell <MARC@wufog.freeserve.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 18:19:22 -0000
Fwd Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 09:24:08 -0500
Subject: Re:  Rhetorical Questionnaire?


>From: John W. Ratcliff <jratcliff@worldnet.att.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Rhetorical Questionnaire?
>Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 23:25:21 -0600


>(9) Your best friend claims to have been abducted by aliens and
>experiences symptoms of shock, despair, confusion and a soul
>shattering change in his personal cosmology.  This is...
>
>(a) Proof that experiential reality is relative.  That you feel
>concern for your fellow man, while at the same time remaining
>confused and ambivalent about what it all means to yourself.
>
>(b) Proof that your friend is nuts and should be put in an
>institution.
>
>(c) Proof positive of evil space aliens intent on raping humanity.
>(d) Proof that your 'so called' friend is a hoaxer, liar, and jerk.


>check your score in the privacy of your own home.
>9 (a)


Hi John & all at Toronto,

If its happened to you, this ones pretty painful.... sorry.

On a lighter note its great to see Larry back, I believe my PC's
been taken out twice in 2 months now as well.

All the best,

Marc






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 12

             -=[For The Record]=- C.E.: Booms in Butler County,

From: Kenny Young <ufo@FUSE.NET>
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 05:23:12 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 09:28:07 -0500
Subject: -=[For The Record]=- C.E.: Booms in Butler County,


Mysterious Sounds Heard in areas near Butler County, Ohio
Reported by WCPO Channel-9 News, Cincinnati

Laura Randall of WCPO Channel-9 News reported Sunday, January 10
of very strange sounds heard near residential homes in Butler
County, Ohio. The situation involved explosive booms and thuds
which alarmed residents in parts of Fairfield, Ohio (18-miles
north of Cincinnati).

An earlier newscast by WCPO reporters addressed the numerous
phone calls to police dispatch offices, stating that the
disruptions had been attributed to an underground phenomenon
known as 'ice heaving' or 'frost cracking.' This explanation was
reportedly offered by persons at The National Weather Service
office, located in Wilmington, Ohio.

Interestingly, WCPO News in this later report informed that a
local geologist, University of Cincinnati Professor Dr. Kenneth
Hinkle, refuted the 'frost-cracking' theory and informed that
such explanations were not workable in this instance.

"In the High Arctic, frost-cracking resembles a sharp snap
similar to a rifle report, which can be felt," Hinkle stated for
the newscast.

The National Weather Service believed that a combination heavy
rain and rapid freezing led to the mysterious sounds heard by
alarmed residents.  Hinkle was curious, and after conducting an
investigation, added that frost-cracking was a most unlikely
explanation.

Hinkle took a garden spade and put the frost-cracking theory to
the test, but found that the snow had insulated the top-soil
from the bitter cold. While cameras were rolling, Hinkle
demonstrated that the sub-surface conditions were not condusive
to frost-cracking.

Also noted on the newscast was a Ms. Jenny Morgan of Fairfield,
who reported that she heard something similar to a shotgun
sound.

A second resident told of suspecting someone had thrown
'snowballs' at her house, while a third person described what
they thought was a supersonic crash.

At least 13-callers reported suspicious and frightening noises.
A police dispatcher, interviewed for the new report, remarked
that many people were complaining of possible break-ins or kids
throwing snowballs and hitting houses.

WCPO reporters finalized their piece by stating: "We are left
with an unsolved mystery."

In the late sixties, a series of unexplained events took place
in Southern Ohio, in which dozens of persons reported unusual
thumping or knocking sounds heard on their roofs. A re-typed
copy of this newspaper article will be available on the internet
at a later date.

During the fall of 1973, sonic anomalies were frequently
correlated with UFO sightings. Details of these reports can be
viewed at:

        http://members.tripod.com/~task_2/Wave-March11a.htm
        http://members.tripod.com/~task_2/Wave-Aug7a.htm
        http://members.tripod.com/~task_2/Wave-Aug30a.htm
        http://members.tripod.com/~task_2/Wave-Oct11a.htm
        http://members.tripod.com/~task_2/Wave-Oct21a.htm

On May 9 and 15 of 1997, a series of sonic oddities perplexed
persons throughout various quarters of the Cincinnati area.
Details of these reports can be viewed at:

        http://home.fuse.net/ufo/PHANTOMBLAST.htm
        http://home.fuse.net/ufo/MAY15.htm

In some instances, the populace has been concerned by the sonic
outburst caused by military jets breaking the sound barrier.
Sonic booms, largely restricted over populated areas, frequently
cause alarm. Due to the continuous outbursts and the localized
residential areas where the recent disruptions are reported, it
seems hasty to apply such an explanation without careful review.

Filed;
January 11, 1998
Kenny Young
--
UFO Research
http://home.fuse.net/ufo/





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 12

                   Re: UFO Cults - A research question...

From: Geri & Alfred Webre <Ecotoday@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 14:21:17 EST
Fwd Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 09:33:02 -0500
Subject: Re: UFO Cults - A research question...


In a message dated 99-01-09 16:24:02 EST, you write:

>Subj:  UFO UpDate: UFO Cults - A research question...
>Date:  99-01-09 16:24:02 EST
>From:  updates@globalserve.net (UFO UpDates - Toronto)

>From: Scott Carr <sardonica@erols.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: UFO Cults - A research question...
>Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 12:51:14 -0800

<snip>

>I realize that this is quite a broad range of topics, but I
>would like to draw on this list's expertise in recommending the
>very best in resource material: publications, books, web sites,
>etc...

>Thanks in advance for your input, and hope to hear from you
>soon.


Dear Scott - We have found Madeleine Tobias' book, "Captive
Hearts, Captive Minds" to contain a good description of the
psycho-dynamics of cult behaviour, particularly of the cult
leader.  The book has a de-programming bias, but still is fairly
comprehensive.

Good luck on the cult project!

Geri & Alfred Webre
Vancouver, BC






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 12

                             Re: Fox TV Special

From: Ed Fouche <http://fouche@connecti.com>
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 14:56:06 -0600
Fwd Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 09:58:20 -0500
Subject: Re: Fox TV Special


>From:  Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net>
>To:    UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject:       Re: Fox TV Special
>Date:  Sun, 10 Jan 1999 00:28:49 -0500

>Excuse me?????????

>I suppose I should apologize for discussing this piecemeal, as I
>scroll through messages that keep speeding further from reality.
>But let me introduce myself as a music critic for the Wall
>Street Journal, a member of the graduate studies faculty at
>Juilliard, America's leading music school, and a composer who's
>worked with everything from folksingers to opera companies, as
>well as with synthesizers and digital audio.

Well Greg, I will grant you that the machine which I have seen
in action was a physical contraption. It was invented in the
early part of this century, by Spencer Harvey Louis, and I think
it now resides in a museum, possibly in Chicago...I cannot be
sure, without looking through my information. This machine
consisted of an organ and a device which converted the mucical
notes into light patterns of various colors, so that when one
played the organ, the audience was entertained with a vast
spectrum of color and music. Grant you a device was constructed
to demonstrate this connection between color and sound, in the
visible spectrum of our reality. Yet, there are individuals who
profess to see these colors in the auric emaninations from
material things...In other words it is an "energy." Anything
which is material would therefore produce this energy. What is
it that determines the differnece between a brick and a log?

It is the number of atoms and molcules in the material.. Maybe I
confused the frequency with the numbers...I can do that from
time to time...that is why I prefer to have my notes in front of
me when writing on this subject. However, to be fair, I wrote
strictly from memory in my origional post. Ed adds: From the
book, 'Color Practice' by Charles Klotsche, "Dinshah calculated
the equivalent sound vibration for each of his twelve colors.

For instance, the basic frequency or vibration of the color Red
is 436 trillion cycles per second. To arrive at a comparable
vibration in the audible range (reducing the vibrations from
visual to audible) Dinshah divided the basic color frequency by
two, 40 times. That results in 392 for Red, or the musical note
G. Through this calculation we find that the corresponding sound
is in the range of the ninth theoretical octave - that is, 40
theoretical octaves below the color vibration of the visible
spectrum.

Others have taken this method further, generating color from a
musical synthesizer for rock concerts, art forums, and
entertainment. There is a software program that uses his
formulas to produce myriad of colored fractals from music.

>This statement of Michael's is-forgive me, Michael-
>complete and utter nonsense. I'm very sympathetic to spiritual
>beliefs, and I believe that music can have great spiritual
>power, even, very likely, healing power. But Michael's statement
>purports to describe not the spiritual meaning of music, but
>physical facts about it. Not one of those supposed facts is
>correct.

>"Everything vibrates at a certain frequency." Not even musical
>notes vibrate at one frequency. As I said in a previous post-
>and as I can easily prove with standard musical software-even
>apparently pure musical notes consist of many frequencies at
>once. (A pure sine wave would be an exception. But you won't
>hear those outside a laboratory or a recording studio, where
>they might be used for tuning or testing, or as a component of
>sounds created on an analogue synthesizer.)

>Besides, when we talk about musical notes vibrating, we're
>talking about sound waves. Sound waves certainly vibrate. But in
>what sense does a solid object vibrate? Perhaps it does in some
>mystical sense, but that has nothing to do with the kinds of
>tangible, measurable, physical vibrations involved in music.


Sound as you are aware, ranges from far below the auditory range
of the human ear to far above it...It is like a slide kazoo....
you can slide the bar in and get one sound and slowly withdraw
it to go all the way to the other extreem, of course again
within the range of the auditory senses. But those vibrations
which we call sound, do not stop, simply because we do not hear
them...animals have a far keener sense of hearing than humans...
Vibrations, deal with energy...this enegy issues across the
entire spectrum of material existence. Music as a product of
material expression can be made more enjoyable by adjusting the
frequency of those vibrations...To harsh and it causes us to
cringe...to soft and it puts to sleep.

>"Change the frequency of vibration of the object and you change
>the object."

>A violinist makes a violin play different notes by changing the
>way the strings vibrate. A clarinettist makes a clarinet play
>different notes by changing the way the air inside the clarinet
>vibrates. Musicians, in other words, do change vibrations that
>have some connection with their instruments.

>But how would you change the vibration of a rubber ball? Of a
>broom? Of your kitchen sink? There are some objects that
>obviously do vibrate-a sheet of metal, to take a familiar
>example, even one formed into a tool, like the blade of a saw.
>But if you get a saw to vibrate, how does that change the saw?
>In the rural south, musicians used to play the saw as a musicial
>instrument, more or less by bowing it as if it were a violin. I
>heard somebody doing that in the New York subway just a week or
>so ago. He played the saw beautifully, changing its vibration to
>form every musical pitch necessary to play a melody. But when he
>finished, the saw hadn't changed at all.

Ok, here definitely I have misrepresented what I was
saying...not intentinally, mind you, but by confusing frequency
with the number of atoms, molecules and electrons, which compose
matter. You will not change a clarinet by playing a frequency
higher or lower, but you would change it if you changed the
moleculear structure of the wood or plastic from which it is
made. <g>

>"play musical notes, and this generates a corresponding Color
>which can be used in a Kaleido- scopic display of sound and
>music."

>Oh, Michael, Michael...where did you ever learn such a thing?

Again, I stick by this, based on the machines I have seen
produce these colors and sounds....

>Musical notes don't generate colors. The vibrations of sound-
>relatively slow vibrations of air molecules-have no relation
>to light. There's no way at all to translate the wavelengths of
>sound into light. If you play a note, no color physically
>appears in the air or in your eye. Musicians often associate
>musical notes with colors, but it's well known that they never
>agree on which colors correspond to which notes. The association
>of notes and colors is entirely subjective.

Ed adds: The human brain can do this.

There is a phenomena known as Synesthesia. A person with this
disorder can see specific colors when hearing specific notes.
Say, C sharp would be blue, and F flat would be red, etc. Other
variations of synesthesia (Greek: syn -together / aisthanesthia
-perceive) can cause a touched color to be tasted, heard, or
smelled by the person with this disorder.

The question is, is this a genetic disorder or did early humans
have this ability. Do some animals have this ability, I don't
know. Synesthesia is described in detail in, 'A Natural History
of the Senses

 By Diane Ackerman.



You are correct...play a note and no color appears in the air..
yet, as previously said by both of us, you can construct devices
to project this color in to the visible spectrum... Is it not
true that the notes on the Universal musical scale cover a range
of 80 octaves??? Definitely this is a subject with which I am
struggling to make sense. It is not my forte'...but being the
defender of ideas, I jumped into the "beamship sounds" boat, and
paddled just a little to far in preparing the foundation for the
posting I made earlier today based on the findings as expressed
in Wendelle Stevens book: "UFO CONTACT From The Pleiades, A
Preliminary Investigation," and the video "CONTACT," which
covers the tests made on the Beam Ship sounds recorded by Billy
Meier and his Wife Poppi, at the time. I opened myself up for
this post and deserve it...<g> <blush> :-)






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 12

                             Re: Fox TV Special

From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net>
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 15:58:48 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 10:02:52 -0500
Subject: Re: Fox TV Special


>Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 14:04:30 -0600
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Michael Christol <mchristo@mindspring.com>
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Fox TV Special

>Well Greg, I will grant you that the machine which I have seen
>in action was a physical contraption.  It was invented in the
>early part of this century, by Spencer Harvey Louis, and I think
>it now resides in a museum, possibly in Chicago...I cannot be
>sure, without looking through my information.

>This machine consisted of an organ and a device which converted
>the mucical notes into light patterns of various colors, so that
>when one played the organ, the audience was entertained with a
>vast spectrum of color and music.

>Grant you a device was constructed to demonstrate this
>connection between color and sound, in the visible spectrum of
>our reality. Yet, there are individuals who profess to see these
>colors in the auric emaninations from material things...In other
>words it is an "energy."

Well, auras aren't sounds. The machine you saw is a perfect
example of what I wrote about in my post. Spencer Harvey Louis
invented a system for translating sound into color. In order to
do that, he had to make decisions -- he had to decide, for
instance, that a particular musical note would be represented by
a particular color. From a scientific point of view, these
decisions are arbitrary. There is absolutely no connection
between the sound frequency that  produces the note E flat,
let's say, and the electromagnetic frequency that produces the
color green. The decisions may not be arbitrary from some
artistic point of view, but they have no basis at all in
objective reality.

In classical music, color associations with music often come up.
Beethoven's very mighty third symphony is in the key of E flat
major. You'll sometimes hear someone say that this is a perfect
key for something so majestic, because the key of E flat sounds
golden. Then someone else will jump in and say, no, the key of E
flat sounds red. Someone else will think it's blue. Nobody
agrees! This is something joked about, affectionately, over and
over within the field. Nobody can agree on which musical sounds
should be associated with which colors, though many people have
strong ideas on the subject.

>Sound as you are aware, ranges from far below the auditory range
>of the human ear to far above it...It is like a slide kazoo....
>you can slide the bar in and get one sound and slowly withdraw
>it to go all the way to the other extreem, of course again
>within the range of the auditory senses. But those vibrations
>which we call sound, do not stop, simply because we do not hear
>them...animals have a far keener sense of hearing than humans...

Sure. But sound vibrations and light vibrations are entirely
different. Sound is created by a physical vibration of molecules
of air or some other substance. Light is electromagnetic
radiation. You can extend the spectrum of sound past the range
of human hearing, but no matter how far you extend it, you'll
never end up with light. Light is on a completely different
spectrum.

One difference between the two is the phenomenon of octaves,
which exists for sound but not for light. If you picture a piano
keyboard, you know that notes repeat. You can play a scale
upwards from middle C, and the notes will be C,D,E,F,G,A,B, and
finally another C. The first C and the second are audibly the
same note, even though the second C is higher.

Physically, the phenomenon is linked to a note's frequency. If
you double a note's frequency or cut it in half, you get the
same note, only higher or lower. The sound spectrum, then,
consists of repeating series of the same notes. (And now the
fine print for those who want a fuller story. The notes of the
piano keyboard are selected from a continuous spectrum. That is,
it's perfectly possible with your voice or with many other
instruments to produce an infinte number of notes, most of which
fall between the cracks of the piano notes. The specific pitches
of the piano keyboard -- the familiar 12-note chromatic scale of
western music -- have been selected for technical musical
reasons which evolved over many years, and would be too
complicated to describe here.)

Taking a deep breath after that parenthesis...sound has this
audible phenomenon of octaves. Light has nothing equivalent. The
spectrum runs in a continuous sweep, without colors repeating
each time a frequency doubles.

>Vibrations, deal with energy...this enegy issues across the
>entire spectrum of material existence.  Music as a product of
>material expression can be made more enjoyable by adjusting the
>frequency of those vibrations...To harsh and it causes us to
>cringe...to soft and it puts to sleep.

Well, planning the quality of music is a lot more complicated
than adjusting a frequency or two. Anyone who doubts that should
attend an orchestra rehearsal, or sit with me while I prepare a
recording mix of some synthesizer piece I've written!

More important, though..."this energy issues across the entire
spectrum of material existence." From a spiritual or mystical
point of view, it's fine to talk about energy as if it were a
single thing, in all of its forms. In material reality, that's
just not true. Sound and light are different forms of energy,
with no physical connection between them.

>Again, I stick by this, based on the machines I have seen
>produce these colors and sounds....

My point, again, was not that machines can't produce color in
response to sound. These connections are arbitrary; that's what
I was trying to say.

>You are correct...play a note and no color appears in the air..
>yet, as previously said by both of us, you can construct devices
>to project this color in to the visible spectrum... Is it not
>true that the notes on the Universal musical scale cover a range
>of 80 octaves???

Nope, not true at all. Can't imagine what the "universal musical
scale" might be. I've never heard of such a thing. Besides, 80
octaves is a lot of  octaves. The piano, with the largest range
of any acoustic instrument (well, maybe the organ might exceed
it), has only 8 octaves. 80 octaves would take you far beyond
the range of not only human, but animal hearing.

>
>You are correct, I was talking in Spiritual terms...but
>ultimately this Spirit reaches acorss the gulf into physical
>reality...
>

In spirit (no pun intended), I agree with you, MIchael. I think,
though, that the spirit is able to work with physical reality as
science knows it.

In any case, spirit can use the vast power of music, realizing
itself only in sound. There's no need to make any new connection
between sound and light to give music any more conviction than
it already has.

Greg Sandow

(Thanks for your kind words, Michael.)






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 12

                                 FSG on TV!

From: Scott Carr <sardonica@erols.com>
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 16:46:27 -0800
Fwd Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 10:04:48 -0500
Subject: FSG on TV!


FLYING SAUCER GAZETTE - SPECIAL ANNOUNCEMENT

Dear FSG readers,

We just got off of the telephone with a representative of CBS
Productions. CBS had called to discuss a future episode of their
"L.A. Doctors" television series, in which a man, known
tentatively as "Charlie" believes that he is a victim of alien
abduction. (At this time the is no decision, but it is possible
that "Charlie" may become a recurring character on the series.)

CBS contacted us to request permission to include a few issues
of the print edition of "The Flying Saucer Gazette" on the set,
either being read by "Charlie" or to be placed on his night
table or desk. We agreed, thrilled beyond words for the
opportunity of Prime-Time exposure for our little sociological
journal.

Shooting of the episode is set for Wednesday, and the show will
probably air sometime during the end of February. Please check
the FSG Home Page (www.erols.com/sardonica) as we will be sure
to post regular updates as to the air date of the show.

-Scott C. Carr

Editor, The Flying Saucer Gazette
http://www.erols.com/sardonica

Producer, "UFO Desk"
99.5 FM WBAI, NY






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 12

                      Re: Secret USAF 'SETI' Projects?

From: Bob Huff <bobhuff@tidalwave.net>
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 17:34:04 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 10:07:30 -0500
Subject: Re: Secret USAF 'SETI' Projects?


Hi,

A friend of mine who sold computers and other sophisticated
equipment to his clients in the Southwest Range - Los Alamos,
Sandia, Tonopah, Area 51...- has expressed that the selection of
the location of Socorro NM for the large antenna arrays had a
connection with the Roswell event. He implies they were/are used
for:

- two way communications
- and not with objects of terrestrial origin
- part of larger tracking/triangulation network

Best, Bob






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 12

                       UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 4, Number 2

From: Masinaigan@aol.com
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 20:00:26 +0000
Fwd Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 09:45:34 -0500
Subject: UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 4, Number 2


    UFO ROUNDUP
Volume 4, Number 2
January 11, 1999
Editor: Joseph Trainor

DOD AND FEMA PLAN Y2K
NATIONAL GUARD ALERT

     On Wednesday, January 6, 1999, World Net Daily
revealed that the USA Department of Defense (DOD)
and the Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA)
are planning for a nationwide practice mobilization of
Army National Guard troops on May 1, 1999.
     Under the code name Exercise COMEX/MOBEX 99,
the planned alert will call up all 480,000 National Guard
troops in the USA's fifty states and four territories.
     In peacetime, a state's National Guard remains under
the command of the state's governor.  But in time of war,
the National Guard becomes part of the U.S. Army.
     COMEX/MOBEX will be the biggest deployment of
National Guard troops in nearly sixty years.  The last
full mobilization occurred in June 1940, when President
Franklin D. Roosevelt mobilized the entire National Guard
in preparation for American involvement in World War II.
     According to David M. Bresnahan of World Net Daily,
"The National Guard is planning its first national mobilization
of troops since 1940 in preparation of civil unrest relating
to the Y2K Millenium Bug.  The National Guard Bureau in
Washington is currently formulating plans for a mobilization
test in conjunction with FEMA."
     "The plan, as it is now being described, will be a full
mobilization of all 480,000 members of the National Guard
in all 54 states and territories.  Exercise COMEX/MOBEX
will be conducted without telephone, radio and television to
get the word to all Guard members."
     "'This will be a simulated COMM-out,' explained another
member of the group."  DOD and FEMA will assume that
the Y2K problem has paralyzed electronic communications
nationwide.  Direct contact means will be used to round
up the National Guard members.  By the end of the three-
day exercise, they hope to have all National Guard units
at an effective manpower strength of 95 percent.
     Bresnahan's story was also confirmed by "a C2
(Command and Control) officer at the National Guard
Bureau in Washington," who said, "This is going to happen.
They are currently working on Public Affairs Guidance."
     On Thursday, January 7, 1999, a document appeared
in USENET which seemed to confirm preparations for
a nationwide military response to possible Y2K civil
unrest after January 1, 2000.
     The document appears to have originated in the
Office of General Administration, Commandant,
Naval Reserve Forces, U.S. Navy under the title
REF/A/DOC/COMNAVRESFOR/960301 and refers
to a Navy Emergency Preparedness Liaison Officer
(NEPLO) program.
     The NEPLO document stated that "senior Naval
Reserve officers" with the rank of Captain or Commander
were needed "to support Navy commanders in
implementing their responsibilities under the National
Security Emergency Preparedness and Military Support
to Civil Authority programs."  Eligible officers are
invited to volunteer for billets (posts) still available
in the NEPLO program.
     Naval Reserve officers were asked to send in their
short cover letter, current mailing address, service
record, copies of their last three fitness reports, current
official photograph and a short biography of their
civilian career experience.  A Navy Selection Board will
begin reviewing the applications on July 1, 1999.
     Surprisingly, NEPLO billets will have a duration of
three years, beginning in 2000 and ending in 2003.
     Open NEPLO billets are still available at the
Department of Defense; FEMA offices in Philadelphia,
Atlanta, Kansas City, San Diego and Denton, Texas;
Elmendorf Air Force Base, Alaska; Fort Richardson,
Arkansas; Springfield, Illinois; Reading, Massachusetts;
Helena, Montana; Raleigh, North Carolina; Carson City,
Nevada; Austin, Texas; Richmond, Virginia; and
San Juan, Puerto Rico.
     In September 1996, the U.S. Army Reserve Command
was restructured to bring it into alignment with FEMA,
making it easier for FEMA to control military units during
a national emergency.  The old Army Reserve Commands
(ARCOMS) were abolished and replaced by ten Regional
Support Commands (RSCs), which conform to the
Standard Federal Regions (SFRs) used by FEMA.
Also, there are three Regional Support Groups, based at
Fort Jackson, South Carolina, Fort Benjamin Harrison,
Indiana and San Antonio, Texas, which also collaborate
with FEMA in times of emergency.  (See World Net Daily
for January 6, 1999.  Many thanks to UFOSSI for
forwarding the news article.)
(Editor's Comment:  The biggest military mobilization
since 1940, and what's on the front page of the New
York Times?  The continuing adventures of Dr. Jekyll
and Rep. Hyde, also known as the Love Story of the
90s--When Bubba Met Tubba.  And they wonder why
people are tuning out the Establishment media.  Don't
go away, folks.  There are more Y2K shockers to come.)

BRITISH TV TEAM EXPOSES
SECRET NATO BASE

     On Wednesday, January 6, 1999, British TV viewers
watching a segment on Nick McCamley's new book,
SECRET UNDERGROUND CITIES, were startled
when host Peter Morgan and journalist Douglas
Campbell showed up on the doorstep of a secret NATO
underground base in Wiltshire, eight miles (13 kilometers)
east of Bath.
     Morgan and Campbell discovered the top-secret
facility at Corsham, Wilts.  The huge underground base,
known as the Corsham Computer Centre (CCC), costs
billions of pounds sterling and was reportedly constructed
as a "black project" by the Ministry of Defence (MoD)
without the knowledge and approval of Parliament.
     The facility is located at the end of Peel Circus,
described as "an area of clipped lawns and landscaping
designed to look like a patch of suburbia."
     According to Gerry Lovell of Far Shores, Morgan
and Campbell "attempted to make contact with a
security building" at the bottom of a stairwell that
had been built right into the hill.  "Almost stunned silence
greeted their opening question...namely that CCC was
in fact the UK Government's nuclear command center...
The men at the other end replied only that the location
was a (Royal) Navy administration site and declined
further comment."
     During the Nineteenth Century, Corsham was the
site of a stone quarry, and there are said to be
extensive tunnels in that section of Wiltshire.  One
tunnel, Lovell added, links Corsham with the nearby
village of Hawthorn, also the site of RAF base at
Rudloe Manor.
(Editor's Note: Until recently, Rudloe Manor was the
headquarters of the RAF's Provost and Security
Services, claimed by some to be the kingdom's
central UFO monitoring unit.  Provost and Security
Services is now located at RAF Henlow.)
     The TV program also revealed that NATO had
built an underground facility similar to Corsham on
Mount Penteli in Greece, 50 kilometers (30 miles)
north of Athens. (Many thanks to Gerry Lovell of
Far Shores for this report.)
(Editor's Comment: Corsham may be the UK's
command center for Operation Abacus and the
Y2K computer crisis.)

ISRAELI MILLENIUM UNIT RAIDS
COLORADO CHRISTIANS

     On Sunday evening, January 3, 1997, Israel's
Millenium Unit swooped down on two villas in
Jerusalem's hilly west end and arrested 14 members
of Concerned Christians, an Evangelical sect from
Lakewood, Colorado, USA.
     "In carefully synchronized raids, dozens of
uniformed and plainclothes police descended on
two spacious homes a mile apart on Jerusalem's
hilly outskirts," in Messaveret Zion and Motza.
     "The group, whose members call themselves
Concerned Christians, did not resist, and police said
they will seek members' deportations."  (See USA
Today for January 4, 1999, "Israeli police detain 14
from Denver cult" by Laura King, page 4A)
     "All 14 Americans, including six children and
three married couples, were arrested Sunday in raids
on two villas near Jerusalem."
     "They were the first people detained by a new
Israeli task force--including members of the Mossad
spy agency--created to deal with possible violence
by doomsday cults and messianic groups in the
Holy Land when millions of tourists arrive for the
2000 millenium celebrations."  (See the New York
Post for January 5, 1999, "Israel sends Denver
doomsday cultists packing," by Uri Dan, page 17)
     The task force--informally known as the
Milleium Unit--included officers of the Jerusalem
police, the Shin Bet security police and the Mossad.
     "Two months ago, Israeli police formed a task
force to deal with the possibility of violence here by
doomsday cults and messianic groups as the turn
of the century approaches."
     "'There is great fear that among the 4 million or so
visitors who are expected to come, there may be some
who have ideas about the end of the world,' said Ehud
Sprinzak, a Hebrew University professor and expert on
religious extremism, who is advising police on the
phenomenon."
     "'They are coming to one of the most volatile places
on Earth, and the fear is that if Jesus Christ does not
appear, some of them might try to help the messiah--
according to their perceptions--by starting Armageddon,'
Sprinzak said, 'There is concern that they could try to
start a war between Jews and Arabs.'" (See the
Providence, R.I. Journal for January 4, 1999, "Israel
detains members of U.S. doomsday cult," page A-4)
     "Police said the group had planned to provoke a
millenial shootout by opening fire on the officers,
believing their own deaths in the subsequent
bloodbath would help bring about the second coming
of Christ."
     "'They planned to carry out violent and extreme
acts in the streets of Jerusalem at the end of 1999
to start the process of beinging Jesus back to life,'
said Brig. Gen. Elihu Ben-Onn, the national police
spokesman."  (USA Today, January 4, 1999, ibid.)
     The Concerned Christians, however, denied any
intention of committing crimes.  "I am not here to
hurt anybody, I don't feel I have committed any
conspiracy," said John Bayles of Denver, Colo.,
one of the men arrested.
     Bayles, as well as Terry Smith, 42, of Eagle,
Colo. and Eric Malesic, 36, of Westminster, Colo.,
was taken by the Shin Bet to the prison at
Petah Tikvah and held incommunicado most of
the week.
     On Friday, January 8, 1999, all 14 members
of Concerned Christians were deported.  "Israeli
police escorted the handcuffed Christians to collect
their belongings yesterday before putting them
aboard an early-morning Air Canada flight."  (See
the New York Post for January 9, 1999, "Israel
deports doomsday cult back to Denver," page 12)
     In October 1998, the Concerned Christians,
who are led by Monte Kim Miller, 44, a former
Proctor and Gamble executive turned prophet,
moved from Denver to Jerusalem after Miller
predicted that the Mile-High City would soon be
destroyed by a major earthquake.  (It wasn't--J.T.)
     Like Marshall H. Applewhite, founder of the
Heaven's Gate sect, Miller told followers that he
was one of "the Two," i.e. prophets mentioned in
the Book of Revalation who would announce the
imminent return of Jesus Christ.  Miller "has
prophesied that he will die in Jerusalem in 1999
and be resurrected" three days later.
     The Millenium Unit is continuing its hunt for
other members of Concerned Christians, including
Miller, who is thought to be in Mexico.
     "'The police will continue to work in every legal
way possible to allow for freedom of religion and
ritual in Jerusalem and in Israel for all religions in
the years of the millenium,' said Gen. Yair Yitzrak,
chief commander of the Jerusalem Police District.
'However, we will act firmly against the attempts
of extreme groups to block access to other
Christians in the year 1999.'"
     "In Colorado, relatives of the cult members said
they had expected the arrests."
     "'We knew they were going to deport them a
couple of weeks ago,' said John Weaver of
Lakewood, Colo., whose daughter used to be a
member of the group.  'Israel is trying to set an
example that they don't want these millenial
groups.'" (See the New York Times for January 4,
1999, "Israel arrests 8 cultists who expect
Apocalypse." by Deborah Montag.)
(Editor's Comment:  Perhaps someone can explain
to me the difference between Spain expelling the
Granada Jews in 1492 and Israel expelling the
Colorado Christians in 1999.  I don't expect Israel
to adopt the Bill of Rights.  But an Edict of Nantes
would be nice.  Otherwise, Israel will begin to
resemble more and more the other religion-based
nations in that part of the world--Afghanistan
and Iran.)

LAKE PARSIPPANY MYSTERY
HAS NEW JERSEY BAFFLED

     "Something plunged into Lake Parsippany on
Christmas Eve (Thursday, December 24, 1998)
breaking a hole in the ice 75 feet across and
blowing vegetation into the air."
     "Gifts were delivered by morning, so it wasn't
St. Nick and the reindeer buying the farm.  Nor
were any meteor sightings reported, according to
ION Weather meteorologist Bill Cotter."
      "The hole in the ice caught the attention of Joe
Strobel, who lives 150 feet away on a small island
in the lake.  He told a friend about it on Christmas
morning."
     "'They were all ready to have me committed to
Greystone (a local mental health facility--J.T.),' said
Strobel, a nine-year resident.  "Then they came
over and they couldn't explain it.  One guy lived here
for 35 years and said he's never seen anything like
that.'"
     "The green vegetation was blown into the air
and fell in a circle on the surrounding ice, drawing a
flock of hungry Canada geese.  A thin sheet of ice
has since formed on the lake."
     Parsippany, N.J. is located about 20 miles
(32 kilometers) northwest of New York City."
(See the Daily Record of Morris County, N.J. for
December 29, 1998, "75-foot hole appears in
Lake Parsippany" by Erik Engquist.  Many thanks
to "Aiwass" for forwarding the newspaper article.)

MYSTERY SPACECRAFT
SEEN IN ANCHORAGE

     On Wednesday, January 6, 1999, at 3:10 p.m.,
Warren A. and his wife were driving on Tudor Avenue
in Anchorage, Alaska (population 226,338), heading
towards the Chugiach Mountains, when they
spotted something very unusual 15 miles down
the road.
     "My wife and I saw what appeared to be a large
'plane' head straight up and then level off at a high
rate of speed," Warren reported, adding that they
"could make out its general shape (larger than a
commercial airliner at approximately the same
distance), which was a silver reflective triangle.  It
appeared that the (condensation) trail went from
two streams to four at an indeterminable altitude.
We watch the fighters out of Elmendorf (air force
base--J.T.) all the time.  This was like nothing we've
ever seen before."
     "This was no small aircraft.  This was almost
shuttle-sized.  And since we were heading straight
towards it, we were able to make out details more
clearly," he added.
     Several other Anchorage residents also
witnessed the strange launch.
     A woman and her two daughters saw the enigmatic
craft from Aurora Village.  "We watched the large smoke
trail in the sky and stared at the object until it was out
of sight."
     Two men driving on Minnesota Avenue saw it from
the intersection at Huffman.  "We saw a large smoke
trail and a shiny object.  We thought it was an ICBM."
     An elderly woman living on Muldoon Road happened
to look out her window at 3:10 p.m.  "I saw it leave the
ground," she reported.
     Two teenagers walking home from Service High
School on Abbott Road said they saw "two shiny
objects" which they described as "saucer-shaped."
(Email Interview)

GLOWING UFO STARTLES
WYOMING WOMAN

     On Tuesday, December 29, 1998, Sami C. was
driving through Casper, Wyoming (population 46,742)
when she saw a strange light in the sky.
     The UFO, Sami reported, "approached from the
northwest.  I would have to say it was 45 degrees"
above the horizon.  "I could not see the shape.  The
light was too bright.  It was totally quiet.  There was
no sound at all around us."
     As Sami watched, the luminous UFO "went up
and down, then left and right, very fast-like.  I had
it in sight for around 10 minutes.  It departed to
the southwest, I think.  All I can say is, it moved
pretty fast."
     Sami added that a woman in the car
immediately behind hers also saw the light.
     Casper, Wyo. is located 180 miles (300 kilometers)
northwest of Cheyenne, the state capital.  (Email
Interview)

UFOs SIGHTED NEAR
MT. HEALTHY, OHIO

     On Thursday, December 31, 1998, at 7:30 p.m.,
a woman decided to take her dog for a walk in a
residential neighborhood in Mt. Healthy, Ohio
(population 7,580), a suburb located 13 miles
(21 kilometers) north of Cincinnati.
     As she strolled along, the witness "reported
seeing a large stationary object with a 'very bright'
steady white light in what she said looked to be a
circular pattern.  As she watched, the small white
light detached itself and flew away" through a
partly cloudy sky.
     The following evening, Friday, January 1, 1999,
at 5:45 p.m., "after exiting (Interstate Highway)
I-275 onto Hamilton Avenue, Mr. H. and his mother
witnessed another unusual object in the sky near
their home.  Mr. H described the object as three
steady bright white lights in a triangular formation
with another light at the center.  It appeared to be
stationary and about 500 feet in altitude."
     "'It was larger than a plane,' Mr. H asserted.
As they watched, the center light detached itself and
flew a short distance before the object disappeared
behind some trees.  A small plane with a blinking red
light had also been observed above the object before
they were all lost to view.  Mr. H said that he had the
impression that the object was shaped somewhat
like a B-1 bomber, but he was unable to explain the
light he saw 'drop off.'"  (Many thanks to Charles
Stuart and Kenneth Young of Cincinnati UFO
Research for this news story.)

UFOs SPEND NEW YEAR'S
EVE ON AUSTRALIA SHORE

     On Thursday, December 31, 1998, at 11:30 p.m.,
residents of Narooma, a port city in New South
Wales, Australia approximately 300 kilometers
(180 miles) south of Sydney, watched a dazzling
UFO display in the night sky.
     Witnesses described "three yellow/orange
very large lights in triangular formation" moving through
the sky south of Narooma.  "They appeared to be
travelling slowly from west to east, or left to right as
they witnesses were looking south."
     "After five minutes in formation, the middle light
moved to the right and" between the other two "so
that they were all travelling in a horizontal line.  A
minute or so later, the middle light dropped sharply
and then radically moved upward and downward.
The left light slowly dropped and seemed gradually
to disappear...The lights seemed too large and
close together to be an aeroplane."
     On Saturday, January 2, 1999, at 8 p.m., "a bright
orange square or plug-shaped object with a shape
tapering at each end" was seen by residents of
Portsea, Victoria, 80 kilometers (50 miles) southeast
of Melbourne.  "It was seen almost standing still in the
sky for a while.  It appeared to be heading toward
Port Phillip Bay."  (Many thanks to Ross Dowe of
Australasian National Space Information Hotline
for these reports.)

from the UFO Files...

1965: USO SPOTTED IN
          NEW ZEALAND

     Thirty-four years ago, on January 12, 1965, a
DC-3 transport plane took off from Whenuapai,
New Zealand for a flight to Kaitaia.  As the
twin-engined propellor plane flew over Kaipara
Harbour, a broad estuary 100 kilometers
(60 miles) northwest of Auckland, the pilot,
Captain Kirkpatrick, spotted an unusual gleam
in the water below--an unidentified submerged
object or USO.
     "He was about one-third of the way across
Kaipara Harbour when he saw what he at first
believed to be a stranded gray-white whale in an
estuary."
     "As he veered his DC-3 for a closer look at the
object, it became evident to him that he was
observing a metallic structure of some sort."
     Captain Kirkpatrick "noted that the thing was
perfectly streamlined and symmetrical in shape...
had no external control surfaces or protrusions...
appeared metallic with the suggestion of a hatch
on top...was resting on the bottom of the estuary
and headed toward the south as suggested by the
streamlined shape...was harbored in no more than
30 feet of water...was not shaped like a normal
submarine but approximately 100 feet in length
with a diameter of 15 feet at its widest part."
     After he filed his flight report, the Royal New
Zealand Navy told Captain Kirkpatrick "that it would
have been impossible for any known model of
submarine to have been in that particular area,
due to the configuration of harbour and coastline."
(See the New Zealand magazine Spaceview, issue
number 43 for 1965.  See also ATLANTIS RISING
by Brad Steiger, Dell Books, New York, N.Y., 1973,
page 99.)

FUN UFO WEBSITES:
     If you want to read David M. Bresnahan's full story
about Exercise COMEX/MOBEX, you'll find it at
http://www.y2knewswire.com/19990108.htm
     Scott Carr of WBAI-FM Radio in New York City
has made some changes to his Flying Saucer Gazette.
Check them out at http://www.erols.com/sardonica/
sardonica.  UFO Roundup readers in the Big Apple
and vicinity can listen to WBAI on 99.5 FM.
     Ken Green has done it again.  This longtime reader
has turned our newsletter into an interactive computer
game.  You've got to try out his UFO Roundup Word
Search Puzzles.  You'll find it at http://www.jps.net/
ken26/roundup.htm.  As for me, I'll have to start
seriously hitting Roget's Thesaurus and improve
my vocabulary!
     Gordon Speer has a load of UFO books for sale.
For a list and prices, check out his site at this URL:
http://www.essex1.com/people/speer/ufo.html
     Don't miss our parent site, UFOINFO.  John
Hayes has a vast array of news stories, features,
links and brand-new photographs for your viewing
pleasure.  Drop in any time at http://ufoinfo.com
     Back issues of UFO Roundup can be read,
accessed and downloaded from our webpage.
Look us up at http://ufoinfo.com/roundup

     That's it for this week.  Join us in seven days
for more saucer news from around the planet,
brought to you by "the paper that goes home--
UFO Roundup."  See you then!

UFO ROUNDUP: Copyright 1999 by Masinaigan
Productions, all rights reserved.  Readers may post
items from UFO Roundup on their websites or in
newsgroups provided that they credit the newsletter
and its editor by name and list the date of issue in
which the news item appeared.





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 12

                      'Unsubscribed' From CAUS updates

From: Moderator, UFO UpDates - Toronto
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 10:16:36 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 10:16:36 -0500
Subject: 'Unsubscribed' From CAUS updates




Return-Path: <CAUSupdates-owner@caus.org>
Received: from caus.org (www.anw.com [206.111.8.33])
        by mail3.globalserve.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id SAA23321
        for <updates@globalserve.net>; Mon, 11 Jan 1999 18:23:10 -0500 (EST)
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 99 16:18:21 MST
Message-Id: <9901111618.AA15C1CC78@caus.org>
From: CAUSupdates-owner@caus.org (List Server)
To: updates@globalserve.net
Subject: Successful Unsubscribe

You were unsubscribed from CAUSupdates.


[Not by request of UpDates --ebk]






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 12

                   Re: UFO Cults - A research question...

From: John W. Ratcliff <jratcliff@worldnet.att.net>
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 19:42:36 -0600
Fwd Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 10:23:01 -0500
Subject: Re: UFO Cults - A research question...



From: Scott Carr <sardonica@erols.com> wrote:

>No one was "throwing the term 'cult'" around or "demonizing a
>group's belief system." I merely asked for the list's advice on
>good resource material on a subject which I happen to feel is
>fascinating and very worthy of research.

My apologies Scott. I have a nasty habit of using other
people's messages to launch myself onto a wild rant about some
pet peeve or another.

I'm certain your motives are good ones, and I respect your
desire to publicize cults, whether they are built around UFO
beliefs or not.

One of my greatest pet peeves, in fact, is how the 'mainstream
media' went on and on about how 'nobody saw Heaven's Gate
coming.' I find this insanely infuriating in light of the fact
that 'the two' had been written about in numerous UFO books and
were even subject to a television documentary. Pretty sad.

The only positive to come out of Heaven's Gate is perhaps it
will make future warnings taken a bit more seriously. Perhaps
the next time a group of CSETI cultists go tramping about the
dark, shining flashlights into the air searching for their alien
brothers, a twinge of doubt might tickle the mind of the
disillusioned seeker.

And, lastly, my biggest pet peeve is how UFO enthusiasts either
embrace the holy brothers from outer space or, worse, simply
ignore them entirely. Blaming the US government when, by
definition, the folks in charge of the cover up are the critters
behind the controls of the spaceship.

John W. Ratcliff






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 12

                           Re: Sightings - Czarnik

From: Rebecca <xiannekei@yahoo.com>
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 18:06:10 -0800 (PST)
Fwd Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 10:24:50 -0500
Subject: Re: Sightings - Czarnik


>Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 17:10:31 -0600
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Michael Christol <mchristo@mindspring.com>
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Sightings - Czarnik

>The people who know will not talk becuase they fear it being
>traced back to them and then they loose their jobs, pensions,
>and other financial perks for which they have worked so
>dilligently over the years.  Not only that, but the word goes
>around in their field, that they cannot be trusted with
>confidential information...  I understand this...but somewhere
>someone has to unite these people as a Unit and then they will
>control the leverage. Until then, we just wait...<sigh>

I see this claim about people losing their pensions and benefits
for talking about secret things, however, of all the people who
have spoken out about the secrets they possessed, such as Corso,
Cooper, Dean, and others, I can't seem to remember one of these
people ever having suffered the consequences of losing a pension
or benefits.

Does anyone know of anyone involved with UFOs or abduction who
has actually suffered loss of pension or benefits because they
spoke out?

Rebecca






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 12

                         Retraction-Apology Required

From: Jim Dilettoso <jim@villagelabs.com>
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 20:34:31 -0700
Fwd Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 10:31:10 -0500
Subject: Retraction-Apology Required

[Non-Subscriber Post]

Mr Korff,

Regardless of what you think of me, Regardless of what you think
of  what I do, or how I do it,

You are not allowed by law to publish lies

Mr. Korff, you  claim to be a journalist, investigate the facts,
adhere to a journalistic code of ethics then you state (among
other things) in a widely circulated e-mail  which was written
by you THAT "it has been proven in court records that jim
dilettoso swindled/.conned investors out of millions of dollars"
This information is false. It never happened.

No investor complaints.
No lawsuits from investors.
No accusations of fraud from investors or anyone.
Only YOU.

Where did you get that information?
Where are the court records of which you speak?
Who gave you that information that you have circulated as fact?

In fact you take great care to circulate your e-mail lies and
pretend that it is news and then.. YOU submit them to search
engines so that they will be found when people search my name.

I just received a call from someone who is soliciting my
expertise in the computer field. Just because it is the way
things are done, he submitted my name to the Alta Vista and
Yahoo search engines.

What he got was that  8 out of 10  were documents created,
posted, distributed, by YOU. The documents are a series of
e-mails and responses orchestrated by you with certain and
specific information about Jim Dilettoso. This information is
false: created by you to defame me. Your actions and refusal to
comment to me are interesting.

I demand that you answer the above questions concerning the
source of information that you have globally submitted as fact.

Jim Dilettoso






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 12

                   Re: UFO Cults - A research question...

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 22:52:31 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 10:35:46 -0500
Subject: Re: UFO Cults - A research question...


>From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
>Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 17:27:43 +0000
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: UFO Cults - A research question...

>>From: John W. Ratcliff <jratclif@inlink.com>
>>Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 10:46:23 -0600
>>Fwd Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 13:20:51 -0500
>>Subject: Re: UFO Cults - A research question...


It would seem to me that anyone who takes seriously the idea
(fact) of UFO reality also has to seriously consider the
possibility (probability) that Other Intelligences (OI),
whether ETs or time travelers or whatever,

1) created humans

2) have watched human development

3) have affected human history a number of times by doing things
outside the norm of human ability

4) have given rise to what we call "religious history"

In other words, there could be some core truth to
Zoroastrianism, Judaism, Islam, Christianity and other more
ancient religions, all of which report conversations between
humans and "OIs".

The "Three Big O's" characterizing God/Creator/..... in human
religious stories/mythology (my stories are religious and
therefore true, yours are myth...hahahaha) are:

1) Omniscience
2) Omnipresence
3) Omnipotence

These O's could well be a legacy of OI/ET contacts with ancient
humans who assumed that Creators could

1) "read minds" and knew everything (the OI/ET ability to
communicate by what we loosely call telepathy... whatever that
is... could explain this),

2) could be anywhere (high speed travel of OIs from one point to
another would explain this)

3) the ability of OIs to create "fire", to move heavy objects,
to cause great effects (blowing up Sodam and Gomorrah?) could
appear as "omnipotence"

Does that mean that everyone should "worship" OI/ET's ? I
wouldn't recommend it. .... ON the other hand, I wouldn't
recommend giving up whatever religion you feel comfortable with
because I think that the existence of UFOs qualifies or
validates religion.

Do we face love, hate or indifference from the OIs?  If we knew
that we might know whether or not our Creators are causing these
sightings (love) or if these UFOs sightings are caused by
galactic bystanders (indifference or hate).






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 12

                             Re: Fox TV Special

From: bruce maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 22:52:40 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 10:39:12 -0500
Subject: Re: Fox TV Special


>From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: RE: UFO UpDate: Re: Fox TV Special
>Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 13:18:20 -0500

>>From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>Subject: Re: Fox TV Special
>>Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 00:28:49 -0500


>I could have been much clearer. I meant to say that nature
>provides no way to translate sound into light. They're
>completely different phenomena, with no intrinsic relationship.
>Sounds have no relationship, in purely physical terms, with
>colors. You can't prove that a particular frequency of sound is
>equivalent to a particular frequency of light.


Just a technical point here: there IS a way to "translate sound
into light", but it plays no role in this discussion. The
phenomenon of "sonoluminescence" does appear to be the direct
conversion of acoustic energy or power into light by focusing of
sound waves into a fluid under particular circumstances. The
phenomenon is not yet understood. There is no color-frequency
relationship, however (at least not that I'm aware of).,







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 12

                      Re: HOT GOSSIP UK - JANUARY 1999

From: James Easton <pulsar@compuserve.com>
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 23:39:56 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 10:42:38 -0500
Subject: Re: HOT GOSSIP UK - JANUARY 1999


Regarding...

>Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 23:41:30 -0500
>From: James Easton <pulsar@compuserve.com>
>Subject: Re: HOT GOSSIP UK - JANUARY 1999

To clarify... although I wrote:

>It's regrettable if Georgina and 'Camelot International', who I
>understand can be held ultimately responsible for claims made within
>'Hot Gossip', are consummately embarrassed, however, there's little
>option other than to, again, highlight the incompetent and woeful
>research which comprises the 'Hot Gossip' newsletter.

It is recognised that my comments about incompetence and woeful
research are equally applicable, and duly so in the first
instance, to Nick Pope, the material in question originating
from "NICK POPE'S WEIRD WORLD" column.


One might presume that Georgina Bruni as 'Editor-in Chief' of
'Hot Gossip' magazine, failed to recognise that Nick Pope's
defamatory allegations were patently false and six months behind
developments in the 'Rendlesham Forest' case.

Otherwise, she would no doubt have spared Nick the humiliation
of circulating his latest 'NICK POPE'S WEIRD WORLD'.

However, I see that when I published 'Resolving Rendlesham: New
Insights and Past Claims Examined' in August 1998, she was an
active participant in subsequent, related discussions and was
familiar with the contents.

Why then is Georgina Bruni publicising Nick Pope's bogus claims
that "Easton's Internet posts are full of references to his own
papers on the subject, but mysteriously fail to mention any
dissenting views - I wonder why" and his suggestion that, "For
those who'd like some balance, check out Jenny Randles' paper
Seeing the Forest for the Trees (IUR, Summer Edition)".

Georgina in fact knew that Jenny's paper was not only referenced
(as were other 'dissenting views'), it was a focus of
discussions within 'Resolving Rendlesham', published six months
ago.


Perhaps Georgina can explain this and also confirm that Nick
Pope is consequentially now aware of these issues.

Not shy to circulate Nick's gossip column, it seems reasonable
to request that Georgina asks Nick Pope to publicly comment on
his recently published smears and his reaction to realising how
absurd they are, that this was already known and yet he wasn't
apparently informed before they were first published and later,
further circulated.


In the September 1998 issue of 'Hot Gossip', Nick Pope wrote an
article entitled, 'Rendlesham - The Unresolved Mystery', which
can be seen at URL:

http://www.hotgossip.co.uk/98sep/flash.html

Nick Pope is also asked to confirm that he was aware that in
September 1998, I published a response to this article,
categorically disproving his assertion that 'radiation levels'
only 'peaked' at the supposed alien spacecraft landing site and
questioning the validity of claims he was now making about
having had access to "the official government file on the
incident". See URL:

http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/pulsar/newslet1.htm


How could Nick Pope have had access to any such material, as he
originally lamented his department had never seen any
'Rendlesham' related file?

Enquiring minds in the UK want to know, Nick.


Instead of publishing false accusations and perpetual claims
that people are having their bottoms 'rogered' by nocturnal,
alien assailants, Nick Pope is duly challenged to answer these
points.



James.
E-mail: pulsar@compuserve.com






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 12

                      BZ - Flying High For the US Army

From: Lawrie Williams <nemesis@fastinternet.net.au>
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 15:50:19 +1000
Fwd Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 10:45:06 -0500
Subject: BZ - Flying High For the US Army


Hi all. Just arrived back on the list.

Here is a potent "abduction drug" that may have been involved in
the "abduction" I had in 1975. Has anyone any thoughts on BZ as
it relates to abduction experiences. e.g. how much of this
stuff, of which many thousands of tons was made, could be loose
in our ecosystem?

Lawrie Williams

___________________________________________________


Flying High for the US Army

[New Scientist  August 26 1976  Michael Carter]


Long before the hippies of San Francisco indulged in their
experiments with hallucinogens, the US Army was administering
these drugs to thousands of subjects - some willing, many
unwitting - to see if they could be used as chemical warfare
agents.

A US Army report, released this month, admits that the drugs
were administered without the knowledge or permission of the
subjects or their families. The reports also admits that the
Army attempted to conceal its role in the research. At least two
people were killed early in the research, more than 20 years
ago.

LSD, mescalin (and its modification STP) and psilocybin are all
known as sympathomimetic hallucinogens. Effects are noted within
ten or fifteen minutes after administration.  At first there is
slight nausea and trembling, combined with some apprehension.
These autonomic effects soon pass and the predominant effects,
on the sensory and psychic systems, soon begin. Perceptual
distortion and enhancement plus eyes-closed imagery are the
first to appear. Random lines on the wall assume recognizable
patterns; objects become surrounded by a faint halo and their
boundaries appear to shift and tremble. Detail in the visual
field becomes a source of great fascination and it is easy to
become deeply involved with what amounts to a sensory storm.
Sense of time is completely distorted due to the great increase
in information being received by the brain.

These behavioiural effects suggested to the US military the
possibility of subduing enemy forces and populations by a kind
of "ethical warfare", and, as research quickly revealed,
providing potential weapons with a wide range of potencies and
duration of effect. The US was not the only power interested.
Papers were published by researchers at the Chemical Defence
Establishment at Porton Down on the effect of tryptamine
(psilocybin) and mescaline analogues in animals. The US
conducted a massive program of human testing with frequent
disregard for ethical procedures on the part of both Army
reserchers and civilian programmes funded by the Army. In the
guise of blind and double-blind techniques many subjects were
given hallucinogens with no knowledge of what the effects might
be......the procedure can only be considered unethical.....

The US military program also lacked any fixed goals. Army
spokesmen, reported in a number of reports last year in the New
York Times, variously said that the research programs were
intended to find shorter-acting hallucinogens than LSD, to lower
resistance to interrogation, to find suitable antidotes, to
provide a combat tool, and to provide an alternative to nuclear
war. As a result of this apparent lack of direction new drugs
were tested in humans without sufficient animal data or full
exploration of low dose levels before high doses were given.

A clue to what the Army later came to seek was given by Dr Van
M. Sim, the civilian director of the Army's programme at
Edgewood Arsenal, Maryland. He is reported in the New York Times
as having said that experiments with LSD were dropped in 1967
"because the Army decided it really wanted a drug that would
stun an enemy, but leave it able to carry out orders".

In the late 1950's a new group of hallucinogens was developed
whose effects were far more disabling than the LSD type.  These
anti-cholinergic drugs are usually called deleriants. Plants
containing anti-cholinergic alkaloids such as atropine and
scopalamine have been used throughout history as narcotics and
poisons. The search for drugs with the theraputic
characteristics of atropine had led to the synthesis of a series
of chemicals with the potency of atropine but with even more
pronounced effects on the central nervous system. Most of these
were derivatives of glycollic acids including diphenylglycollic
acid, also called benzilic acid.

The characteristic effects of the deleriants are almost always
unpleasant. With the onset of symptoms autonomic symptoms are
pronounced - dryness of the mouth, dizziness and muscular
weakness. Shortly a state of apprehension, fear and deperson-
alizaton appears. One or two hours after administratoin subjects
are confused, agitated and suffer from motor and mental
incoordination. Emotions range through anger, panic, paranoia
and fear. Subjects soon lose all contact with reality and
experience true hallucinations, conversing with imaginary
individuals and engaging in tasks with imaginary objects. During
this period of delerium, amnesia (particularly of short-term
memory) occurs and persists for the duration of the drug effect.
Asked a question the subject will respond correctly at frst but
then may break off and discuss urelated matters, then stop,
realizing that he has answered irrationally. Panic can occur
when the subject realizes his confusion.

Clearly these drugs would be more attractive than the sympatho-
mimetic hallucinogens as chemical warfare agents. Significantly
the only known hallucinogen to be stockpiled in US arsenels is
the drug code-named BZ, reputedly 3-quinuclidinyl benzilate.

Disturbingly this was one of the agents excluded from the ban on
chemical and biological agents signed by President Ford in
Januaray 1975. Its use, the Army claim, would be for protection
of military zones and in civilian riots.

Current goals and research programs are unclear. However it was
revealed last year that the US Army was testing atropine and
scopolamine on 55 military personnel at Edgewood Arsenel. The
Army denied that either drug could cause hallucinations. This
information only serves to confuse the Army's intentions - the
ability of  atropine and scopolamine to cause delerious states
similar to the anti-cholinergic hallucinogens has been well
known for many years. What seems further to confuse the
situation is that researchers at Edgewood Arsenel published, in
1973, a comprehensive paper showing the behavioural effects of
atropine, scopolamine, and Ditran, (an anti-cholinergic
hallucinogen) to be indistinguishible from each other.
[Psychoparmacologia (sic), vol 28 p 121]. The subjects were 158
Army enlisted men. The general properties of the drugs were
described to subjects before testing.

Any view on why a further experiment is being conducted must be
purely speculative. However it is worth noting one feature of
these drugs described in the paper. During the early effects "in
spite of their confusion.....most subjects were curiously docile
and tractable". One is reminded of the Army's declared desire
for a drug to stun the enemy but leaving it capable of carrying
out orders. In their present state of development these drugs
can in no way be said to produce this effect alone, but such a
goal may not be difficult to achieve......

__________________________________________________





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 12

                   Re: UFO Cults - A research question...

From: John W. Ratcliff <jratcliff@worldnet.att.net>
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 23:54:23 -0600
Fwd Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 10:50:13 -0500
Subject: Re: UFO Cults - A research question...


John W. Ratcliff <jratcliff@worldnet.att.net> stupidly wrote:

>>Perhaps the next time a group of CSETI cultists go tramping
>>about the dark....

<snip>

As soon as I hit the 'send' button on this message I thought,
boy, that's going to get me in a bunch of trouble. I need to
follow up my previous message with a tiny bit of clarification.
First, CSETI is no more or less a cult than the Roman Catholic
Church. As I said before, either call them all cults or none of
them. Unfortunately I usually call them all cults since I can
rarely see much of a distinction; and the mainstream cults love
to use that term for the newcomers.

Let me clarify. I have the utmost respect for Steven Greer in
his efforts to bring about a more open dialogue on the subject
of the UFO phenomenon, and end the culture of secrecy in the
USAF regarding this topic. I fully support his efforts and
respect him as a compassionate and driven man. Where I differ
with Greer is on his methods to contact these
'extraterrestrials' and his assumptions about benign space
brothers. I believe that trust is earned, and in no way, shape,
or form has any aspect of the UFO phenomenon engendered a sense
of trust. The UFO phenomenon has appeared hostile, subversive,
sometimes benign, always secretive and has never been an open,
honest, or equal exchange between two species. Even if you don't
accept evidence of hostility, _common sense_ suggests an air of
great caution.

Regarding my classification of CSETI's contact protocol as a
cult, let me clarify.

There is absolutely no objective distinction between a group of
people attending a Virgin Mary apparition and the CSETI
protocols.

Catholics attending a Virgin Mary apparition utilize meditation
techniques, chanting, deep focused thought, musical tones, all
in an effort to contact a higher spiritual being.

CSETI protocol uses mediation, musical tones, and deep focused
thought to contact higher spiritual beings.

That one group believes their apparition to be the mother of
Jesus Christ and the other group believes their apparition to be
benign space brothers in UFOs is a hair split so fine that to
the outside objective observer appears to be irrelevant.

The actual work which has been done by Steven Greer to open up a
dialogue in government on the UFO subject is to be commended.
However, it is my humble opinion that his stated belief in
benign aliens, his lack of critical assessment of their motives
or criticism of _their_ cover-up (meaning the space brothers),
his blind view of the negative interactions between some aspects
of this phenomenon, his lack of historical perspective of the
amorphous nature of the phenomenon, and his ritualistic contact
protocols goes a long way towards destroying his credibility in
his other more worthwhile efforts.

Just this author's humble opinion of course.

John W. Ratcliff






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 12

                         Re: 'Pumpkin Seed' Aircraft

From: Josh Goldstein <clearlt@pacbell.net>
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 00:57:43 -0800
Fwd Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 10:52:30 -0500
Subject: Re: 'Pumpkin Seed' Aircraft


>Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 10:47:22 -0500
>From: Tom Benson <sparkle@earthlink.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: 'Pumpkin Seed' Aircraft

>>From: Larry Clark <lclark@ibm.net>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>Subject: Re: 'Pumpkin Seed' Aircraft
>>Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 19:32:03 -0000

>>Question: Has anyone heard of any experimental government
>>aircraft as referred to as 'pumpkin seeds'?

>Re: Pumpkin Seeds, John McPhee's book published in 1973 and
>earlier serialized in New Yorker magazine was entitled, 'The
>Deltoid Pumpkin Seed'. The book covers the development of a
>experimental deltoid shaped craft developed and flown by the
>Aereon Corporation which is still based in Princeton, New
>Jersey. Aereon has done government contract work.

>Aereon patents indicate that their airframes and platforms are
>similar in shape as to what was reported as UFOs in the Hudson
>Valley area of New York state, Belgium, etc. over the years.

>Hope this helps.

>Tom Benson

Does anyone know what projects Aeron has developed since them? I
always assumed that kind of stuff would come out of the Lockheed
Skunkworks.

Josh Goldstein






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 12

                                     Re:

From: Greg Wilson <Euromgt@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 05:14:51 EST
Fwd Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 10:59:32 -0500
Subject: Re:

[Non-Subscriber Post]

Dear Mr. Korff,

I have been following your crusade from a distance for about 20
years and am finally moved by sheer outrage to complain.

I have known Jim Dilettoso since the mid-'70s variously as a
friend, colleague and business partner... in brief far better
than you.

I have intimate knowledge of many of his projects and can state
with certainty that his so- called "modus operandi", subject of
your life-long harangue bears little resemblence to your
accusations.

You have now slung so much mud, it is difficult to even comment
intelligently. Choosing only one example... persuading someone
to give a grant or otherwise fund an interesting project (which
is done a thousand times a day for ideas much more zany that Jim
ever pursued) does not constitute fraud. I'm quite sure that
you yourself have at times asked for funding on little more than
what you thought was a good idea... so it seems we have the pot
calling the kettle black.

What I do take extreme issue with, Karl, is YOUR modus operandi,
which is, and has always been, vicious and very personal
character assassination.

I read your last book on the Meier case with great dismay... and
disgust. Though I tend to agree with a number of the aspects
you call into question, the HUNDRED PAGES devoted to destroying
the personal character of decent people like Marcel Vogel,
Wendell Stevens, Lee & Brit Elders, Tom Welch, not to mention of
course, Jim Dilettoso, was right over the top and in such bad
taste professionally, that it in fact seriously degraded the
credibity of an otherwise thought-provoking report.

There is a striking similarity between your crusade against Jim
Dilettoso and that of Kenneth Starr against Bill Clinton. "But
what about peace in Northern Ireland? You lied about sex, Mr
President". "But what about the great economic boom? You lied
about sex Mr. President"...... ad nauseum. "But what about all
my years of good work on colorizing black & white movies? Sorry
Jim you didn't give your correct academic credentials in 1979".
Give us break Kal... the public is REALLY tired of you and your
crusade. First, it's not a perfect world, and second, nobody
cares about this any more. Go get a life!

You might try Kenneth Starr's office. I hear they're looking for
a few good people.

Sincerely,

Greg Wilson






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 12

                             Re: Fox TV Special

From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net>
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 04:29:47 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 11:06:33 -0500
Subject: Re: Fox TV Special


>Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 12:56:39 -0600
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Michael Christol <mchristo@mindspring.com>
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Fox TV Special

>Do you have a copy of the video 'Contact?' It is the
>investigation of the Billy Meier case by Wendelle Stevens, Lee
>and Britt Elders, and Tom Welch...

>This video has the sounds on it...It has a short blurb of the
>sounds early on as the explain where the recordings were taken
>by Poppi and Billy.

>Later in the video, is where they actually analyze the sounds.
>One must remember that this analysis of the Meier case occurred
>over a five year case, and the video itself was copyrighted in
>1986.

<snips>

>The sounds were taken to Electronics Consultant Nils Rognerud
>and Sound Engineer Steve Amborse for examination, according to
>the 'CONTACT' Video...

>However, the book, 'UFO Contact From The Pleiades, A Prleiminary
>Investigation', By Wendelle Stevens, says the following:

>"At Excaliber Studios on Ventura Boulevard in Studio City,
>California, Nils rognerud and Steve Singer, sound engineer and
>electronics system designer, working together with a
>Hewlett-Packard model 3580 Frequency Spectrum Analyzer, with
>amemory unit, a Two-channel Oscilloscope, a Multi-track Mixer
>and Amplitude Readout and Full Frequency Sound Control Board,
>studied and analyzed a 3-minute segment of the later spacecraft
>sounds that were recorede in front of 15 witnesses."

Just so we don't get wowed by this long list of equipment...only
the spectrum analyzer and the oscilloscope are needed for the
analysis. The terminology may sound formidable, but in truth
it's needlessly so. A multi-track mixer is, for instance, a
redundant term -- all mixers are multi-track, since mixing many
tracks together is what they're for. And in any case a mixer is
nothing special or exotic, just a piece of standard studio gear,
used in any professional recording.

>Continuing from the Stevens Investigative Report:

>"Mr. Nils Rognerud of the Rognerud Research and Development
>Company of Los Angeles, advised me in his letter Dated 12
>December, 1981, 'Regarding the taped UFO sounds from the Swiss
>case, I found a very complex and changing sound pattern.

<snips>

>The
>sound pattern is very dynamic and changing, and the only thing
>that seemed to have a repeatable pattern was an
>amplitude-modulation (a signal in which the volume is varied at
>a low periodic rate). For the three UFO recordings, this
>frequency worked out to be 4.9 cycles per second, 4.6 cycles per
>second, and 5.0 cycles per second. It is woethwhile revealing
>that Nicola Tesla discovered a natural electro-magnetic
>resonance of Earth at 6.6 chcles per second. A second gentleman
>named Schulman also discovered a second resonance at 7.8 cycles
>per second. Now you mention that your tape was running a bit
>slow. This could explain why the vibrations are a little bit
>slower than expected.'"

So the "signal" in the sound (more on that below) turns out
_not_ to match the alleged electromagnetic resonance of the
earth! Many, many years ago, my mother told me that beer causes
cancer. (I'm not making this up.) I asked her why she thought
that, and she pulled out a New York Times article, which said
that beer did not cause cancer. "But what do _they_ know?" she
asked, triumphantly.

Michael, I'm afraid that your evidence for the sound of Meier's
UFOs matching the resonance of the earth makes no more sense
than my mother's evidence for beer causing cancer. The document
you're quoting from clearly states that there is no match.

Ah, but what about the tapes running slow? That would, indeed,
slow the"signal" on the tape down. So maybe if the tapes ran at
the proper speed, the sound really would match the resonance of
the earth after all.

Or, on the other hand, maybe it wouldn't. We aren't told -- and
the analytical gentlemen apparently didn't think to ask --
exactly how slowly the tape was running. That's crucial data.
Depending on the exact speed of the tape, the frequency of the
"signal" might turn out to be 5.3 cycles per second, 5.7 cycles
per second, 6.6 cycles per second, 8.9 cycles per second, 16.12
cycles per second, or any other number larger than what was
measured. Unless we know the exact speed of the tape, we can't
know if there was a match -- and the odds are that there wasn't.

And now about that "signal." That's a nice strong word, one that
implies there's some meaning, some communication in the
information being analyzed. Of course, these careless analyists
(I have to call them that, after their failure to ask the
important question about the speed of the tape) may only have
said "signal" to separate the recurring amplitude modulation
from the random "noise" created by other aspects of the sound. I
don't know.

But let me reveal a little technical secret. No, wait -- the
analysts revealed it themselves. A repeatable pattern of
amplitude modulation sounds very impressive, especially since
"amplitude modulation" is such a fearsome term, but all it
means, as the analysts themselves let us know, is that "the
volume is varied at a low periodic rate."

Or in other words the sound gets louder and softer in regular
pulses. Many sounds do that. The sound of water coming out of
the faucet in my kitchen sink is doing that right now, as I
explained to the superintendent of my building this morning;
evidently there's some problem. The sound of my dishwasher also
shows a "repeatable pattern of amplitude modulation," and so do
all sorts of sounds on my synthesizers. Amplitude modulation, in
fact, is a well known synthesizer effect, something modern
synthesizers allow you to control. There's nothing necessarily
remarkable about it.

>Continuing....after the introduction of the Excaliber Studios
>part of the book....

>"As before, they found them to be truly unique in at least the
>following aspects:

>1. There were many, at least 30 or more, discrete frequencies in
>a random and constantly shifting mix in ranges from 4 to 2170
>Hz, but averaging 470 to 1452 Hz.

Um, unique because they had at least 30 frequencies in a
constantly shifting mix? Nearly any sound would have that.
Nearly any sound would have many more frequencies shifting
around, apparently at random. (The numbers here don't have
anything to do with the supposed uniqueness of the sound. They
just tell us what the highest, lowest, and average frequencies
were in the mix.)

>2. The amplitude of these frequencies also constantly changed
>whereas one would be dominant for a moment and then dominance
>would shift to another.

Again, you'd find that in many sounds.

>3.The wave form also changed constantly, and would come into and
>go out of synchronizaton i a random periodic rhythm that
>produced a characteristic
>beat.

Once again, something that's reasonably common.

>"Two other sound engineers and a sound shnthesizer specialist
>joined the analysis team and the sounds were re-examined with a
>view to possible duplication. These specialists all agreed that
>the sounds were unique in character, and that any synthesis, if
>at all possible, could only reproduce parts of the whole
>soundtrack we were examining; and that duplication of any part
>of the whole sound, even in short linear segment may be
>impossible. The number of discrete frquencies, constantly
>shifting, and the migrating and constangly changing amplitudes,
>shifting in relative dominance, presented problems in
>duplication beyond the capability of present state-of-the art
>equipment.

I'm not an expert on 1986 sound synthesis, so I can't comment
with any authority. But I do think that our friendly analysts
(friendly to Wendelle Stevens, certainly, because without any
solid data they were happy to agree that the sound probably
matched the resonance of the earth) could have given us a little
more information. What, exactly, about the sound would be so
hard to duplicate? The fact that it had many shifting
frequencies? I'm at a loss to know exactly what these people are
trying to say. In the early '70s, I made some very complicated
sounds with an early-model synthesizer. That, of course, doesn't
mean that I could have duplicated the sound on the Meier tapes,
but the extremely vague, somewhat muddled description I've just
quoted doesn't prove to me that I couldn't have done that.

Besides, the opinion quoted here is just an opinion. Remember
all the conflicting opinions on whether the alien autopsy film
could have been duplicated by special effects experts. I'd want
to see other opinions, preferably from people who ask harder
questions, and state their conclusions more professionally.

>"Sometimes the multiple waveform characteristics were so alike
>that they fell right on top of each other making one heavy wave
>trace of many fine lines. Sometimes the wave form was perfectly
>symmetrical, and sometimes it was totally asymmetrical. Then the
>waves would go out of shnchroniza- tion again and there was no
>pattern at all.

So?

>"An overall beat was noticed at about 4 to 6 Hz, which just
>happens to be the natural resonance of Earth.

Except, as we've seen, the numbers don't actually match. (Talk
about shoddy thinking!Earlier we learned that the sound had
beats between 4.6 and 5 cycles per second, while the earth
resonates at 6.6. Those numbers are different. But now the
differences are concealed by lumping all the numbers into a
range of "about 4 to 6 hz." I suggest we all try the same trick
next time we're at the supermarket. "So my groceries add up to
$23.71?" we'll say to the checkout person. "I have about $19 to
$23 in my wallet. I'll just give you that, and we'll call it
even, OK?"

>"After some 4 hous of testing these sound it was generally
>agreed that they were truly unique and that they were not
>produced by any mundane source."

Sure.

>More could be written on this, Greg, but this is enough for now.
>I would suggest that if you are really interested in proving or
>disproving the reality of these sound recordings, that you do
>your own research and not just reply to one message on this
>list

I'm not remotely qualified to do that. As I said, I don't know
enough about 1986 sound synthesis. Besides, the sound wouldn't
have to be synthesized. Maybe it's a slowed-down tape of a 1986
Swiss hair dryer. (Or something like that.)

And, Michael, despite the mantra from these sloppy analysts
about the sound not being produced by any "mundane source," I'm
not aware that there's any developed science of sound analysis
that could prove that. If we had a substance that, allegedly,
came from a UFO, it could be analyzed chemically. The chemical
analysis could tell us whether it was anything known. Chemists,
after all, do studies like that all the time. If someone's
arrested for cocaine possession, the police labs have to prove
that the substance they wre carrying really is cocaine.

But nobody, to my knowlege, is in the business of analyzing
sounds to discover what they are. Maybe the police need to do
that sometimes, if a tape somehow turns up as evidence in a
criminal case. But I don't think analyzing sounds to discover
their origin is a common practice, simply because there's not
much need for it.

If I'm right about that, then any opinion these analysts have is
suspect, because there isn't any body of knowledge they can draw
on to support it. Even in 1986, it was (I'm pretty sure) easy to
create unusual sounds simply by manipulating recordings of
nature, machinery, electronic devices, animal noises, you name
it. Play something backwards, and it's often unrecognizable.
Slow it down, filter out some of the frequencies, layer other
sounds over it (or, for a much more subtle kind of complexity,
layer it with other manipulated versions of itself), and even a
familiar sound will turn into something new and strange.

With so many possibilities, could we ever know that we weren't
hearing a 1986 Swiss hair dryer?

Greg Sandow
.







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 12

                            UFO Sighting in Italy

From: Fabrizio Monaco <F.Monaco@stm.it>
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 16:13:27 +0100
Fwd Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 11:09:09 -0500
Subject: UFO Sighting in Italy


Hello my name is Fabrizio Monaco and I am the international
coordinator for the CISETI, an italian organization.

I have been reported of a sighting made on Dec 27 at 00:15 A.M.
the place was Merlengo near Bolzano, about 700Km north-east from
Rome. The object was "mothership" in shape and it was at about
2000Mt of altitude, probably it was huge because the witness
said that it was big, like a lighter.

The object was moving approximately at 600 Km/h and after 1,5
minutes it moved up and disappeared in the sky. The weather was
cloudy and the object was positioned over the clouds, the
witness saw it because of the moon light. We are looking for
other witnesses of this sighting, please let me know if you have
further information on it. Thank you in advance.

Fabrizio Monaco
CISETI International Coordinator

our webwite http://www.ciseti.u4l.com
our discussion list http://ufonews.listbot.com
out hot line +39-06-51965329








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 12

                          APRO Microfilm Questions

From: Jan Aldrich) <jan@cyberzone.net>
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 10:10:08 -0800
Fwd Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 11:19:38 -0500
Subject: APRO Microfilm Questions


Several questions have come in concerning the APRO microfilm.

1.  Were all these reports on the microfilm published in the
APRO Bulletin?

No, these files on the microfilm contain many items that were
never used in the Bulletin.  Also, some items that were
published in the Bulletin do not appear in the files.
Specifically, I was looking for the stalled "tractors" or "bull
dozers" case from Forili or Ferrara, Italy.  It was published in
the Bulletin--the account differs from most others--however, is
was not on the microfilm.


2.  Was Fontes' material among the files?

There was Brazilian material, but none was from Fontes. Fontes
started to work with the Lorenzens long after the time period
covered by the files.

Loren Gross did receive some early Fontes material for another
source. Fontes produced a little bulletin with English
translations of some of reports.

3.  Do the files contain the APRO Bulletins?

No, but Ed Stewart obtained what might be considered a complete
set of APRO Bulletins. There is some concerns about missing
bulletins from 1954-56 period. It seems no matter how many
people we contact; their original source seems to be Isabel
Davis. If Isabel were missing some, we would not know as there
was no numbering system for early issues of the APRO Bulletin.

4.  Was there correspondence from Hynek or other personalities
on the microfilm?

No, the microfilm contains sighting report files only.

5.  What is the extent of the South American material?

Most South American material comes from Venezuela. The Venezuela
material consists of mostly of newspaper clippings, many
translated into English. There are some retrospective
investigative reports from Peru. Most of the South American
material is in the form of newspaper clippings.  (The Venezuelan
material Project 1947 found is from different sources than
APRO's.)

Some comments about the microfilms in general, there are few
reports for the 1920s anywhere, the material in the APRO files
about doubles what was in the CUFOS/NICAP/CSI files. There are
"new" reports for 1947. Reports start getting more detailed
after APRO begins operations in 1952. There are some report
forms from other UFO organizations in Norway, Canada, and from
some of the representative overseas.


--
Jan Aldrich
Project 1947
http://www.iufog.org/project1947/
P. O. Box 391, Canterbury, CT 06331, USA
Telephone: (860) 546-9135

=========================

APRO Bulletin May-June 1972, page 2

MICROFILMING PROJECT

Almost 2,500 UFO reports in APRO files have been microfilmed
since the Organization received funds for the microfilming
project.  During the course of the microfilming it has been
possible to ascertain, for the first time the amount of
reports contained in the files.  Microfilming to date (reports
contained in the files.  The following is a breakdown
of the microfilming to date (reports are filed in chronological
order)

     1600 BC-AD 1600                179
     1600-1700                       12
     1700-1800                        8
     1800-1900                       19
     1900-1910                       12
     1910-1920                       12
     1920-1930                       14
     1930-1940                       18
     1940-1946                       49
     1947                            81
     1948                            24
     1949                            47
     1950                            74
     1951                            51
     1952                           349
     1953                           132
     1954                           525
     1955                           226
     1956                           315
     1957                           376

   The reports from 2,000 years ago are from Roman and Greek
accounts of unusual aerial phenomena, many of which probably
could have had mundane explanation, such as meteorological or
astronomical phenomena, but they are all included for the
record.  The last 19th century "airship" sightings over  the
United States are not included in the above figures.  This is
not because APRO  does not accept the "airship" as legitimate
aerial phenomena but because APRO's files on the subject are not
very extensive. It is known that others have very complete files
on the "airship" reports so APRO decided not to include them in
its catalog at this time.

   A marked increased in reports is apparent from 1952 onwards.
That was the year APRO was founded and  report files were
maintained. Reports prior have filtered through to APRO over the
years in lesser numbers.  It should be noted that the totals in
the above list include UFO Report Forms, letters from citizens
describing their observations, reports received from other
organizations (including many abroad) and newspaper clipping.
Most do not represent, by means, *investigated* cases as APRO
was in its infancy in the early-mid 50s and the Field
Investigations Network did not exist.

    Statistics for years 1958 through 1971 will be given
microfilming progresses over the next several months.






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 12

                          Watch For My Coming Hoax!

From: Terry Blanton <commengr@bellsouth.net>
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 11:06:56 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 11:21:56 -0500
Subject: Watch For My Coming Hoax!


We've been warned!

>From alt.alien.visitors:

    <><><><><><><><><><>

From: Michael Edelman <mje@mich.com>
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Watch for my coming hoax!
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 12:39:37 -0500
Organization: Wayne State University

Fellow aliens, spooks, paranoids (you know who you
are) and schitzophrenics:

I am just about ready to launch my massive saucer
hoax on the nation, and I'm giving you advance
warning. I do so so (1) you'll know it's a hoax
and (2) to prove that it can work even if I
disclose it's a hoax in advance.

Watch for it!
--






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 12

                            Updated Posting Rules

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 11:36:13 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 11:36:13 -0500
Subject: Updated Posting Rules

Please read the enclosed 'Posting Instructions'
and then look at the message you submitted for
posting to the List (also enclosed) and re-submit
your message.


Errol Bruce-Knapp,
Moderator UFO UpDates - Toronto



                            Posting Instructions


       To help current and future readers of UFO UpDates' posts and
       the UFO UpDates Instant Archive software at:

                   http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates

       please observe the following rules when posting to the List.


 1.    Line-length

       Please make your lines no more than 70 characters long

------------------------This line is 70 characters---------------------

       Longer lines are wrapped by various pieces of software along the Net
and leave awkward
       and eye-jarring line lengths.


 2.    Attribution

       When responding to a message from the List, _always_ include the
       four line 'header' from the body of that message at the _start_
       of _your_ message - eg.:

                >Date: 01 Jan 97 00:00:01 EST
                >From: Genghis@mukluk.com <Bob Bobberts>
                >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
                >Subject: UFO UpDate: Grays are Grey Area

       Again - it's at the beginning of the 'body' of the message you
       are responding to.

 3.    Quoting

       _Always_ quote from the message to which you are responding.

        Quotes should come _before_ you key your response.

       Start each quoted line with a 'greater-than' sign (>) as the
       first character. It should look like this:

       >Start each quoted line with a 'greater-than' sign (>) as the
       >first character. It should look like this:

       Keep quoted material from previous messages to a minimum:  Just
       quote enough text to let people know what you are referring to.

       Messages that do not utilize the required quoting protocol
       or contain excessive quoting will not be posted to UpDates.

       The Archive software will automatically italicize these lines.
       Visit the Archive page and take a look.

       Most modern E-Mail software will allow the user to click a
       'Reply' button and automatically open a new window, with the
       message being responded to inserted with universal quote-mark
       (>) at the beginning of each line.

       When 'Reply' is clicked, some E-Mail software will insert a line
       which states:

              On 01 Jan 97 at 00:00:01 EST, UFO UpDates wrote:

       If your program does this, please remove it - UFO UpDates did
       not _write_ the message - it merely posted it to the List.


 5.    Don't send 'personal' responses to the list that should be sent
       directly to the original author.  Send a message to the list
       only if it contains new information that you want _everyone_
       to see.

       Messages that contain what the List Administrator considers to
       be personal attacks or 'flames' will not be posted to the List.
       Those messages will be forwarded to the person they refer to
       for their information.


 6.    URLs (Web Site addresses)  _must_ include 'http://' and be on
       one line. The Archive software will make the URL a 'click-able'
       link to that address in your archived message.

 7.    To un-subscribe, send a _new_ message with 'Un-subscribe' as
       the 'Subject: '


 8.    And _please_ do _not_ use the 'formatted text' features of
       your e-mail program. No colours, no fancy fonts, no italics
       or bolding, no fancy quoting designs or html styling. Plain
       Ascci is what UpDates uses. Messages that are not plain text
       will not be posted.

                     ------------------------------------






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 12

                           Re: Sightings - Czarnik

From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 11:12:50 +0000
Fwd Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 11:23:49 -0500
Subject: Re: Sightings - Czarnik


Re: Sightings - Czarnik

>From: Rebecca <xiannekei@yahoo.com>
>Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 18:06:10 -0800 (PST)
>Fwd Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 10:24:50 -0500
>Subject: Re: Sightings - Czarnik

>>Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 17:10:31 -0600
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>From: Michael Christol <mchristo@mindspring.com>
>>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Sightings - Czarnik

Previously, Michael had wisely pointed out:

>>The people who know will not talk becuase they fear it being
>>traced back to them and then they loose their jobs, pensions,
>>and other financial perks for which they have worked so
>>dilligently over the years.  Not only that, but the word goes
>>around in their field, that they cannot be trusted with
>>confidential information...  I understand this...but somewhere
>>someone has to unite these people as a Unit and then they will
>>control the leverage. Until then, we just wait...<sigh>

Rebecca responded:

>I see this claim about people losing their pensions and benefits
>for talking about secret things, however, of all the people who
>have spoken out about the secrets they possessed, such as Corso,
>Cooper, Dean, and others, I can't seem to remember one of these
>people ever having suffered the consequences of losing a pension
>or benefits.

>Does anyone know of anyone involved with UFOs or abduction who
>has actually suffered loss of pension or benefits because they
>spoke out?

Hi Rebecca,

To my knowledge, no UFO whistle blower has ever come out with
any "secrets" that they can prove; therefore, the powers that be
probably would not want to inadvertantly validate such a
person's claims by publicly retaliating about something that is
not even supposed to exist. In short, the person poses no threat
without proof.

On the other hand, if someone DID have proof that would be
damaging to the powers that be, then it's quite likely that the
general public would never be allowed to even hear about that
person's existence. In such a case, the whistle blower in
question would have much bigger problems that "loss of pension",
if you get my drift.

Does this answer your question?
I really hope not...

Take care,

Roger Evans





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 12

                             Re: Fox TV Special

From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 11:43:07 +0000
Fwd Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 13:08:38 -0500
Subject: Re: Fox TV Special


>From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net>
>Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 04:29:47 -0500
>Fwd Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 11:06:33 -0500
>Subject: Re: Fox TV Special

>>Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 12:56:39 -0600
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>From: Michael Christol <mchristo@mindspring.com>
>>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Fox TV Special

Previously, Michael had offered:

>>"At Excaliber Studios on Ventura Boulevard in Studio City,
>>California, Nils rognerud and Steve Singer, sound engineer and
>>electronics system designer, working together with a
>>Hewlett-Packard model 3580 Frequency Spectrum Analyzer, with
>>amemory unit, a Two-channel Oscilloscope, a Multi-track Mixer
>>and Amplitude Readout and Full Frequency Sound Control Board,
>>studied and analyzed a 3-minute segment of the later spacecraft
>>sounds that were recorede in front of 15 witnesses."

Greg replied:

>Just so we don't get wowed by this long list of equipment...only
>the spectrum analyzer and the oscilloscope are needed for the
>analysis. The terminology may sound formidable, but in truth
>it's needlessly so.

<snip of much patient explanation>;-)

>With so many possibilities, could we ever know that we weren't
>hearing a 1986 Swiss hair dryer?

Greg,

Of _course_ it's a 1986 Swiss hair dryer.

But it was recorded in 1947!!! <G>

Roger Evans





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 12

                   Re: UFO Cults - A research question...

From: Scott Carr <sardonica@erols.com>
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 11:40:02 -0800
Fwd Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 13:10:29 -0500
Subject: Re: UFO Cults - A research question...


>From: John W. Ratcliff <jratcliff@worldnet.att.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: UFO Cults - A research question...
>Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 19:42:36 -0600


>My apologies Scott...I'm certain your motives are good ones...

>One of my greatest pet peeves, in fact, is how the 'mainstream
>media' went on and on about how 'nobody saw Heaven's Gate
>coming.'

>And, lastly, my biggest pet peeve is how UFO enthusiasts either
>embrace the holy brothers from outer space or, worse, simply
>ignore them entirely. Blaming the US government when, by
>definition, the folks in charge of the cover up are the critters
>behind the controls of the spaceship.



No problem at all, John. All of your point are good and valid
- essential to any pursuit or investigation of the cult
phenomenon. I was just a little confused by the accusatory tone
of your post, but the points that you raised are excellent.


-Scott C. Carr

Editor, The Flying Saucer Gazette
http://www.erols.com/sardonica

Producer, "UFO Desk"
99.5 FM WBAI, NY







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 12

                    Re: 'Unsubscribed' From CAUS updates

From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 12:09:39 +0000
Fwd Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 13:16:34 -0500
Subject: Re: 'Unsubscribed' From CAUS updates


'Unsubscribed' From CAUS updates

>From: Moderator, UFO UpDates - Toronto
>Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 10:16:36 -0500
>Fwd Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 10:16:36 -0500
>Subject: 'Unsubscribed' From CAUS updates

>Return-Path: <CAUSupdates-owner@caus.org>
>Received: from caus.org (www.anw.com [206.111.8.33])
>        by mail3.globalserve.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id SAA23321
>        for <updates@globalserve.net>; Mon, 11 Jan 1999 18:23:10 -0500 (EST)
>Date: Mon, 11 Jan 99 16:18:21 MST
>Message-Id: <9901111618.AA15C1CC78@caus.org>
>From: CAUSupdates-owner@caus.org (List Server)
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Successful Unsubscribe

>You were unsubscribed from CAUSupdates.

>[Not by request of UpDates --ebk]

Hello, ebk!

In 'All the President's Men' the reporters spoke of something
called "Non-denial Denials".

Since Peter Gersten is on record as claiming that UpDates wasn't
a subscriber in the first place, what we have here must be a
very rare anomaly known in science as the "Unsubscribed
Non-Subcription". Therefore, does this act of reversing what
existed before mean that UpDates is now, officially, a
CAUSupdates subscriber?

This could get confusing...<g>

Later,

Roger Evans






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 12

              Kal Korff: Be Careful... What goes around, comes

From: Greg Wilson <Euromgt@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 05:14:51 EST
Fwd Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 13:17:06 -0500
Subject: Kal Korff: Be Careful... What goes around, comes

[Non-Subscriber Post]

Dear Mr. Korff,

I have been following your crusade from a distance for about 20
years and am finally moved by sheer outrage to complain.

I have known Jim Dilettoso since the mid-'70s variously as a
friend, colleague and business partner... in brief far better
than you.

I have intimate knowledge of many of his projects and can state
with certainty that his so- called "modus operandi", subject of
your life-long harangue bears little resemblence to your
accusations.

You have now slung so much mud, it is difficult to even comment
intelligently. Choosing only one example... persuading someone
to give a grant or otherwise fund an interesting project (which
is done a thousand times a day for ideas much more zany that Jim
ever pursued) does not constitute fraud. I'm quite sure that
you yourself have at times asked for funding on little more than
what you thought was a good idea... so it seems we have the pot
calling the kettle black.

What I do take extreme issue with, Karl, is YOUR modus operandi,
which is, and has always been, vicious and very personal
character assassination.

I read your last book on the Meier case with great dismay... and
disgust. Though I tend to agree with a number of the aspects
you call into question, the HUNDRED PAGES devoted to destroying
the personal character of decent people like Marcel Vogel,
Wendell Stevens, Lee & Brit Elders, Tom Welch, not to mention of
course, Jim Dilettoso, was right over the top and in such bad
taste professionally, that it in fact seriously degraded the
credibity of an otherwise thought-provoking report.

There is a striking similarity between your crusade against Jim
Dilettoso and that of Kenneth Starr against Bill Clinton. "But
what about peace in Northern Ireland? You lied about sex, Mr
President". "But what about the great economic boom? You lied
about sex Mr. President"...... ad nauseum. "But what about all
my years of good work on colorizing black & white movies? Sorry
Jim you didn't give your correct academic credentials in 1979".
Give us break Kal... the public is REALLY tired of you and your
crusade. First, it's not a perfect world, and second, nobody
cares about this any more. Go get a life!

You might try Kenneth Starr's office. I hear they're looking for
a few good people.

Sincerely,

Greg Wilson





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 12

                             Re: Fox TV Special

From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net>
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 12:18:35 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 13:39:05 -0500
Subject: Re: Fox TV Special


>From: Ed Fouche <http://fouche@connecti.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: RE: UFO UpDate: Re: Fox TV Special
>Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 14:56:06 -0600

>Ed adds: From the
>book, 'Color Practice' by Charles Klotsche, "Dinshah calculated
>the equivalent sound vibration for each of his twelve colors.

>For instance, the basic frequency or vibration of the color Red
>is 436 trillion cycles per second. To arrive at a comparable
>vibration in the audible range (reducing the vibrations from
>visual to audible) Dinshah divided the basic color frequency by
>two, 40 times. That results in 392 for Red, or the musical note
>G. Through this calculation we find that the corresponding sound
>is in the range of the ninth theoretical octave - that is, 40
>theoretical octaves below the color vibration of the visible
>spectrum.

"Theoretical" is the operative word here. You can perform any
arithmetic you like, but you're still making a personal,
arbitrary choice. There's still no physical relationship between
light and sound.

>Others have taken this method further, generating color from a
>musical synthesizer for rock concerts, art forums, and
>entertainment. There is a software program that uses his
>formulas to produce myriad of colored fractals from music.

Yep. It's all a lot of fun, but has no deep meaning.

>>Musical notes don't generate colors. The vibrations of sound-
>>relatively slow vibrations of air molecules-have no relation
>>to light. There's no way at all to translate the wavelengths of
>>sound into light. If you play a note, no color physically
>>appears in the air or in your eye. Musicians often associate
>>musical notes with colors, but it's well known that they never
>>agree on which colors correspond to which notes. The association
>>of notes and colors is entirely subjective.

>Ed adds: The human brain can do this.

>There is a phenomena known as Synesthesia. A person with this
>disorder can see specific colors when hearing specific notes.
>Say, C sharp would be blue, and F flat would be red, etc. Other
>variations of synesthesia (Greek: syn -together / aisthanesthia
>-perceive) can cause a touched color to be tasted, heard, or
>smelled by the person with this disorder.

>The question is, is this a genetic disorder or did early humans
>have this ability. Do some animals have this ability, I don't
>know. Synesthesia is described in detail in, 'A Natural History
>of the Senses

> By Diane Ackerman.

I think synesthesia is most fun when is gets into the less
quanitifiable, more subjective senses like touch and taste.

There's no doubt that sounds and colors can be linked via
synesthesia. But the links are completely arbitrary, as I've
been saying, and entirely subjective. No two musicians agree on
them. C sharp for me is whitish silver, but I wouldn't expect my
colleagues in the music biz to say the same thing. My own
associations for F flat would be pretty murky -- a shadowy
yellowish tan, maybe. It would be a vague and murky color
because you don't run into an obscure note like F flat every day
of the week. Only in the key of D flat minor (which most
composers would write as C sharp minor)....or in some passages
in Verdi operas. Verdi, who in his early and middle works has a
reputation as a fairly simple composer, could create really
hairy arrays of flats when he's already in a flat key, and
modulates even further in that direction. Take the Sleepwalking
Scene in Macbeth. It's in D flat major, and modulates to the
flat sixth. That's a common modulation, and in simple keys, it's
very straightforward to notate. In C major, you simply go into A
flat.

In D flat, the simplest thing would be to notate the new key as
B major. But not Verdi! He's a stickler for technical accuracy,
and writes the new key as C flat, just bristling with
accidentals. So there you do run into that elusive note, F flat
(normally simply written as E). The scale of C flat major goes
like this: C flat, D flat, E flat, F flat, G flat, A flat, B
flat, C flat. You don't see that one every day of the week! (And
if you inserted a C flat minor chord, suddenly you'd have an E
double flat!)

But I digress.

Greg Sandow






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 12

                             Re: Fox TV Special

From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net>
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 12:21:54 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 13:41:00 -0500
Subject: Re: Fox TV Special


>Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 22:52:40 -0500
>From: bruce maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
>Subject: Re: Fox TV Special
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>

>Just a technical point here: there IS a way to "translate sound
>into light", but it plays no role in this discussion. The
>phenomenon of "sonoluminescence" does appear to be the direct
>conversion of acoustic energy or power into light by focusing of
>sound waves into a fluid under particular circumstances. The
>phenomenon is not yet understood. There is no color-frequency
>relationship, however (at least not that I'm aware of).,

Very interesting. Thanks for correcting me, Bruce. It would be
interesting to know what relationships -- if any -- are created
between the sound and the light. Do you know anywhere I can read
more?

Greg Sandow





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 12

              Re: Ireland Newest Hotspot For Alien Spaceships?

From: David Gullick <dgullick@interlog.com>
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 15:30:46 -0600
Fwd Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 16:00:34 -0500
Subject: Re: Ireland Newest Hotspot For Alien Spaceships?


>From: Stig Agermose <Stig_Agermose@online.pol.dk>
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 21:25:22 +0100
>Subject: Ireland Newest Hotspot For Alien Spaceships?

>Ansbro is convinced UFOs will be hovering above Dublin at
>5 a.m. Jan. 30. And in February, he promised, they'll return to
>one of their favorite haunts, the tiny town of Boyle, County
>Rosscommon. It's "a UFO hotspot," he said.


Oh no!  Not again... two predictions in one month <sigh>

Now let me see (pulls out trusty old slide-rule again..twiddle,
twiddle). Arrgh...not Sirius this time..its..its.. The Pleiades
(The Seven Sisters).

In Dublin on Jan 30th, at 5:00am Daylight saving time The
Pleiades are just above the horizon. At 5:01am Electra is just
at the horizon at precisely 43.1 deg north of west. At 5:07 The
Pleiades are below the horizon.

Darn! Not enough accuracy, perhaps the 43.1 is actually 43.1336
degs (43:08:0.8).. hmmm, now where have I seen a number like
that before? (4 million pounds sterling will produce instant
memory recall and a map of Egypt. oops, I hope the
pyramidologists aren't reading this)

Seven minutes for Seven Sisters to transit the horizon?
Scary <grin>. (Collapses in a frenzy whilst incanting long lost
Druidic tome)

solis sacerdotibus.

djg








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 12

                          Kenneth Arnold - Question

From: Scott Carr <sardonica@erols.com>
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 14:55:56 -0800
Fwd Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 18:11:10 -0500
Subject: Kenneth Arnold - Question


Sorry to bother the list with another research question, but I
am closing in on the finish line of a writing project, and am at
the point of fine-tuning and checking minor details.

Does anyone know what make of airplane Kenneth Arnold was flying
during his famous sighting of June 24, 1947? I've looked in
Jerome Clark's 'The UFO Book' and while there is a wealth of
information about the event, this is one detail I could not
locate.


-Scott C. Carr

Editor, The Flying Saucer Gazette
http://www.erols.com/sardonica

Producer, "UFO Desk"
99.5 FM WBAI, NY






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 12

                             Re: Fox TV Special

From: Terry Blanton <commengr@bellsouth.net>
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 15:47:59 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 18:13:17 -0500
Subject: Re: Fox TV Special


>From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: Fox TV Special
>Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 12:21:54 -0500

>>Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 22:52:40 -0500
>>From: bruce maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
>>Subject: Re: Fox TV Special
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>

>>Just a technical point here: there IS a way to "translate sound
>>into light", but it plays no role in this discussion. The
>>phenomenon of "sonoluminescence" does appear to be the direct
>>conversion of acoustic energy or power into light by focusing of
>>sound waves into a fluid under particular circumstances. The
>>phenomenon is not yet understood. There is no color-frequency
>>relationship, however (at least not that I'm aware of).,

>Very interesting. Thanks for correcting me, Bruce. It would be
>interesting to know what relationships -- if any -- are created
>between the sound and the light. Do you know anywhere I can read
>more?

You'll find a great description and lots of pictures at:

http://www.hooked.net/~rgeorge/sonofusion.html

Sonoluminescence is believed to be related to cold fusion.

Terry





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 12

                             Re: Fox TV Special

From: Terry Blanton <commengr@bellsouth.net>
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 15:47:59 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 18:20:16 -0500
Subject: Re: Fox TV Special


>From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: Fox TV Special
>Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 12:21:54 -0500

>>Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 22:52:40 -0500
>>From: bruce maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
>>Subject: Re: Fox TV Special
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>

>>Just a technical point here: there IS a way to "translate sound
>>into light", but it plays no role in this discussion. The
>>phenomenon of "sonoluminescence" does appear to be the direct
>>conversion of acoustic energy or power into light by focusing of
>>sound waves into a fluid under particular circumstances. The
>>phenomenon is not yet understood. There is no color-frequency
>>relationship, however (at least not that I'm aware of).,

>Very interesting. Thanks for correcting me, Bruce. It would be
>interesting to know what relationships -- if any -- are created
>between the sound and the light. Do you know anywhere I can read
>more?

You'll find a great description and lots of pictures at:

http://www.hooked.net/~rgeorge/sonofusion.html

Sonoluminescence is believed to be related to cold fusion.

Terry





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 13

                    Re: UFO Cults, A Research Question...

From: Scott Carr <sardonica@erols.com>
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 15:49:21 -0800
Fwd Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 07:21:36 -0500
Subject: Re: UFO Cults, A Research Question...


>From: John W. Ratcliff <jratcliff@worldnet.att.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: UFO Cults - A research question...
>Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 19:42:36 -0600


>My apologies Scott...I'm certain your motives are good ones...

>One of my greatest pet peeves, in fact, is how the 'mainstream
>media' went on and on about how 'nobody saw Heaven's Gate
>coming.'

>And, lastly, my biggest pet peeve is how UFO enthusiasts either
>embrace the holy brothers from outer space or, worse, simply
>ignore them entirely. Blaming the US government when, by
>definition, the folks in charge of the cover up are the critters
>behind the controls of the spaceship.



No problem at all, John. All of your point are good and valid
ones- essential to any pursuit or investigation of the cult
phenomenon. I was just a little confused by the accusatory tone
of your post, but the points that you raised are excellent.

-Scott C. Carr

Editor, The Flying Saucer Gazette
http://www.erols.com/sardonica

Producer, "UFO Desk"
99.5 FM WBAI, NY







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 13

                   Re: UFO Cults - A research question...

From: John Ratcliff <jratcliff@att.net>
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 21:35:15 +0000
Fwd Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 07:25:38 -0500
Subject: Re: UFO Cults - A research question...


>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
>Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 22:52:31 -0500Fwd Date: Tue, 12
>Jan 1999 10:35:46 -0500
>Subject: Re: UFO Cults - A research question...

>Bruce wrote:

>It would seem to me that anyone who takes seriously the idea
>(fact) of UFO reality >also has to seriously consider the
>possibility (probability) that >Other Intelligences (OI),
>whether ETs or time travelers or whatever,

>1) created humans
>2) have watched human development
>3) have affected human history a number of times by
>   doing things outside the norm of human ability
>4) have given rise to what we call "religious history"

Excellent post Bruce and a fine theory.  My view is since we
know that human beings have strange experiences, whether it's
due to the influence of space aliens, temporal lobe misfiring,
psychoactive consumption, fasting, or the paranormal, it is
impossible to come to any firm conclusions about some base
reality surrounding the mythologies of early man.

If you put forth the idea that religous history is in fact the
product of the influence of another species, replete with nuts &
bolts UFOs, I maintain a fairly homo sapians centric view.  What
I mean is when it comes down to a choice between gods/aliens and
humans, my loyalty lies with my own species, warts and all.

Afterall, if you choose to postulate a theory that some of these
old gods were in fact objectivly 'real', then we must examine,
critically, their actions.  And their actions as recorded in our
myths, if taken literally, are a record of violent genocide
against humanity. (Put your Bible aside and simply see the
recent animated childrens film 'Prince of Persia' for just a few
examples of how brutal these OI's can be.)

These don't sound like spiritually advanced folks I want to
welcome with open arms (see Bramley's 'The Gods of Eden').  Call
me xenophobic, or just call me cautious, but when Jehovah starts
flitting about in his UFO and issuing a fresh set of edicts, I'm
going to be mighty pleased if the USAF has some top secret
aircraft ready to take him on.

John W. Ratcliff
Xenophobic Warrior Princess





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 13

                    Re: 'Unsubscribed' From CAUS updates

From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@connectmmic.net>
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 16:51:12 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 07:54:06 -0500
Subject: Re: 'Unsubscribed' From CAUS updates

At 10:16 AM 1/12/99 -0500, you wrote:

>From: Moderator, UFO UpDates - Toronto

>Return-Path: <CAUSupdates-owner@caus.org>
>Received: from caus.org (www.anw.com [206.111.8.33])
>       by mail3.globalserve.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id SAA23321
>       for <updates@globalserve.net>; Mon, 11 Jan 1999 18:23:10 -0500 (EST)
>Date: Mon, 11 Jan 99 16:18:21 MST
>Message-Id: <9901111618.AA15C1CC78@caus.org>
>From: CAUSupdates-owner@caus.org (List Server)
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Successful Unsubscribe

>You were unsubscribed from CAUSupdates.


>[Not by request of UpDates --ebk]


Errol,

The way the CAUS site works, any joker could have pulled that
one on you: fill in the proper E-mail address and then
requesting to remove the subscription.

I could have done it ;)

My best,

Serge





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 13

                    Firmage Book Synopsis - Due 01-15-99

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 08:47:32 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 08:47:32 -0500
Subject: Firmage Book Synopsis - Due 01-15-99

Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 17:14:17 -0500
To: updates@globalserve.net
From: Joseph P. Firmage - The Kairos <thekairos@the-word-is-truth.org>
Subject: Book Synopsis - Friday, January 15th

Hello Everyone,


On the evening of Friday, January 15th, I plan to publish a
synopsis of my book. It will be distributed at no cost to all
those who have visited the site. The document will arrive in a
Microsoft Word file format, allowing you to print clean copies
easily. I know how challenging it is to find enough time to read
a 600+ page book, let alone one found exclusively online. So,
this "editor's cut" of the book contains enhanced
up-to-the-moment perspective and the most salient points made
across the collection of works.

Please forward this message to anyone who may be interested in
receiving the forthcoming document, and ask them to log in to
www.TheWordIsTruth.org. They will then automatically receive my
future messages. E-mail addresses are requested by my site
exclusively to enable these infrequent messages from me to you.

Thank you again for checking into my site, and very best wishes
for 1999,

JOSEPH P. FIRMAGE

[Firmage appeared on CNN this morning - I caught it at 08:57
 See attached .jpg]







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 13

              Re: Ireland Newest Hotspot For Alien Spaceships?

From: Bob Shell <bob@bobshell.com>
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 17:55:00 +0000
Fwd Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 10:08:07 -0500
Subject: Re: Ireland Newest Hotspot For Alien Spaceships?


>Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 15:30:46 -0600
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>From: David Gullick <dgullick@interlog.com>
>Subject: Re: Ireland Newest Hotspot For Alien Spaceships?

>(4 million pounds sterling will produce instant
>memory recall and a map of Egypt. oops, I hope the
>pyramidologists aren't reading this)

Uh, don't you mean Pyramidiots, to use the proper
terminology?






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 13

                             Re: Fox TV Special

From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net>
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 16:49:44 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 09:57:14 -0500
Subject: Re: Fox TV Special


>From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
>Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 11:43:07 +0000
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Fox TV Special

>Greg,

>Of _course_ it's a 1986 Swiss hair dryer.

>But it was recorded in 1947!!! <G>


Ah!

So any unusual sonic artifacts are byproducts of time travel!






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 13

                       Re: Kenneth Arnold Question #2

From: Scott Carr <sardonica@erols.com>
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 18:51:33 -0800
Fwd Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 10:22:09 -0500
Subject: Re: Kenneth Arnold Question #2


Dear List

If you will allow me to once more delve into the minutia of the
Kevin Arnold case - Arnold (according to Jerome Clark's 'The UFO
Book) detoured from a straight flight to Yakima, to Mt. Rainier
in order to try and sight the wreckage of a Marine transport
which had gone down (a $5000 reward was being offered for
discovery of the transport) - Does anyone no what ever became of
the Marine transport? How long did it take to find it? Were
there any survivors?

-Scott C. Carr

Editor, The Flying Saucer Gazette
http://www.erols.com/sardonica

Producer, "UFO Desk"
99.5 FM WBAI, NY






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 13

                             What is SPACELINE?

From: Patricia Mason <pmason@ee.net>
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 19:19:30 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 10:26:59 -0500
Subject: What is SPACELINE?


What is SPACELINE?

SPACELINE is a bibliographic database containing information
about publications on space and ground-based life sciences
research. Space life sciences research contributes to ensuring a
safe and productive presence of humans in space and a better
understanding of current medical and scientific questions about
which space and gravitational research can provide unique
information. It also includes exobiology, the study of the
origin, evolution, and distribution of life in the universe.

Background: SPACELINE was established as a cooperative venture
of the Life Sciences Division of the National Aeronautics and
Space Administration (NASA) and the National Library of Medicine
(NLM), one of the institutes of the National Institutes of
Health in Bethesda, Maryland. Its objective is to consolidate
the results of the growing body of space life sciences research
into a single, easily accessible resource. Work on the creation
of the database began in mid-1993; SPACELINE was made available
to the public for searching on October 25, 1995.

National Library of Medicine database: SPACELINE is one of the
National Library of Medicine's specialized databases. NLM is
considered a world leader in providing online information in the
life and biomedical sciences. MEDLINE is the best known of its
databases. There are 40 specialized databases such as AIDSLINE,
CANCERLIT, TOXLINE, and SPACELINE.

Users: SPACELINE's intended audience is the space life sciences
community in the United States and abroad; medical, scientific,
and scholarly communities with an interest in the field;
librarians; students; and the general public.

Contents: SPACELINE contains references to publications
reporting results of ground-based and flight research, both
domestic and international, from 1961 to the present. Sample
records can be viewed at Examples of Records. Types of
publications include journal articles, technical reports, books
and book chapters, meeting papers, and meeting abstracts. All
languages are included. SPACELINE employs the National Library
of Medicine's Medical Subject Headings (MeSH) as the search
vocabulary. Terms unique to the space life sciences have been
added to MeSH to facilitate searching. A distinctive feature of
SPACELINE is the Space Flight/Mission field, which was created
so references to a particular flight, groups of flights, or any
space flight can be found. This field may also be used to
identify manned or unmanned flights, as well as those of short
or long duration (30 or more days).

Scope: The scope of SPACELINE is references pertaining to the
health and productivity of humans in space, the physical and
psychological effects of gravity and the space environment on
living systems, applications of space life sciences research,
and exobiology.

Specific areas of coverage include:


Clinical medical support to humans in space

Physiology, metabolism, and growth and development of cells,
organs, and systems of humans, animals, and plants as they are
affected by the space environment, particularly weightlessness

Environmental protection and support of humans in space,
including life support, toxicology, and radiation

Psychological, behavioral, and human factors involved in living
in the space environment

Origin, evolution, and distribution of life in the universe

Applications of bioengineering to space life sciences

Applications of space life sciences research to the improvement
of life on Earth

Records: SPACELINE records are similar in structure to those in
MEDLINE. Some of the records in SPACELINE are derived from
MEDLINE (journal articles), CATLINE (books), and AVLINE
(audiovisuals). Records unique to SPACELINE are created and
added by the SPACELINE Project Office; they include NASA
technical reports, conference proceedings and meeting abstracts,
as well as journal articles and books not covered by National
Library of Medicine databases. The SPACELINE Project Office
makes a special effort to include citations to publications of
NASA-funded researchers.

Database additions: SPACELINE is an evolving database and new
citations to recent publications as well as older ones are being
added to fulfill the goal of achieving full and comprehensive
coverage. SPACELINE is updated weekly with the addition of
approximately 150 new records.

See: http://spaceline.usuhs.mil/






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 13

                           Re: Sightings - Czarnik

From: Michael Christol <mchristo@mindspring.com>
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 18:36:44 -0600
Fwd Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 10:38:23 -0500
Subject: Re: Sightings - Czarnik


>Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 18:06:10 -0800 (PST)
>From: Rebecca <xiannekei@yahoo.com>
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Sightings - Czarnik
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>

>I see this claim about people losing their pensions and benefits
>for talking about secret things, however, of all the people who
>have spoken out about the secrets they possessed, such as Corso,
>Cooper, Dean, and others, I can't seem to remember one of these
>people ever having suffered the consequences of losing a pension
>or benefits.


I don't know that anyone has ever lost a pension, but I have
talked to retired military people, who say they were threatened
with such if they taked about some of the things they were
associated with...

I once made a trip to Marysville, Kansas to talk with a Retired
Air Force officer, who allegedly "escorted" a UFO which was having
mechanical problems...

However, when I got there, He would not talk to me...It had been
arranged by a friend of mine who lived in Marysville...Later,
my friend told me he talked to the man again after I had returned
home, and he told him he could not risk loosing his pension at
his advanced age...


REgards, Mike






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 13

                          What is SPACELINE? [More]

From: Patricia Mason <pmason@ee.net>
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 19:56:19 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 10:48:25 -0500
Subject: What is SPACELINE? [More]


Hi All,

Please refer to my other post on Spaceline. The description in
that post was taken from their web site. I think that may not
have been clear from what I sent to Errol, now that I think
about it. I didn't write it. Here is a sample record. This
turned up in a search for EXOBIOLOGY. Do some of your own
searches. It's a real eye opener!

Pat

---------------------------------------------------

National Library of Medicine: IGM Full Record Screen

TITLE: Media reaction to a SETI success.

AUTHORS: Shostak GS

AUTHOR AFFILIATION: SETI Institute, Mountain View, California
94043, USA.

SOURCE: Acta Astronaut. 1997 Aug-Nov;41(4-10):623-7.

SECONDARY SOURCE ID: NASA/00022572

ABSTRACT: Consideration of the reaction to a SETI detection by
the media, and the effect this will have on the public, is more
than mere sociological speculation. An accurate forecast of the
media's interest can lead to actions that will help ensure that
correct and comprehensible information reaches the public. This
is most critical in the first few weeks following a discovery.
While a widely accepted protocol for dealing with a detection
exists in the "Declaration of Principles Following the Detection
of Extraterrestrial Intelligence," it gives scant consideration
to the fact that the actual situation will be chaotic and not
subject to easy control. The 1996 story about the possible
discovery of martian microfossils has provided a useful
precedent for what will happen if astronomers uncover the
existence of alien intelligence.

MAIN MESH HEADINGS: Exobiology/ *STANDARDS
*Guideline Adherence
*Mass Media
*Public Policy
ADDITIONAL MESH HEADINGS: Astronomy/INSTRUMENTATION
Astronomy/METHODS
Astronomy/ORGANIZATION & ADMIN
Communication
Exobiology/INSTRUMENTATION
Exobiology/METHODS
Exobiology/ORGANIZATION & ADMIN
Extraterrestrial Environment
Fossils
Mars
Meteoroids
Newspapers
Television

PUBLICATION TYPES: JOURNAL ARTICLE

LANGUAGES: Eng

ISSN: 0094-5765

--------------------------------------------

Contact Spaceline <http://spaceline.usuhs.mil/> for ordering
information.

SPACELINE Office at USUHS
Voice: 301-295-2482
Fax: 301-295-5271
E-mail: spaceline@usuhs.mil

NLM Help Desk
Voice: 800-638-8480
Fax: 301-496-0822
E-mail: mms@nlm.nih.gov







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 13

                             Re: Fox TV Special

From: Michael Christol <mchristo@mindspring.com>
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 19:00:42 -0600
Fwd Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 10:51:19 -0500
Subject: Re: Fox TV Special


>Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 22:52:40 -0500
>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
>Subject: Re: Fox TV Special
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>

>>I could have been much clearer. I meant to say that nature
>>provides no way to translate sound into light. They're
>>completely different phenomena, with no intrinsic relationship.
>>Sounds have no relationship, in purely physical terms, with
>>colors. You can't prove that a particular frequency of sound is
>>equivalent to a particular frequency of light.

>Just a technical point here: there IS a way to "translate sound
>into light", but it plays no role in this discussion. The
>phenomenon of "sonoluminescence" does appear to be the direct
>conversion of acoustic energy or power into light by focusing of
>sound waves into a fluid under particular circumstances. The
>phenomenon is not yet understood. There is no color-frequency
>relationship, however (at least not that I'm aware of).,

Thanks Bruce for your input here. I realize that I have
blundered my way through this post from the first day, however,
I have a passing awareness of it. I am not an expert by
anymeans, and sometimes find myself illprepared when trying to
discuss it.

I like the last sentence of your post, especiall what you put
in parenthesis...<G>

Awareness is the key to any knowledge...<G>

Hopefully, one day we will have a scientific Mandamus on this.
Do you think you would be interested in devoting the time to
research, experiment and write it? Heck, maybe you can do it as
part of another Thesis toward another PHD...?  Can we ever have
to much education?

Thanks...to me, it does play a role in the discussion I was
"trying" to have....<g> ;-)

Have a good evening Everyone...

REgards, Mike






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 13

                        Re: Kenneth Arnold - Question

From: Gary Alevy <galevy@pipeline.com>
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 20:19:44 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 10:52:57 -0500
Subject: Re: Kenneth Arnold - Question


>From: Scott Carr <sardonica@erols.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Kenneth Arnold - Question
>Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 14:55:56 -0800

>Does anyone know what make of airplane Kenneth Arnold was flying
>during his famous sighting of June 24, 1947? I've looked in
>Jerome Clark's 'The UFO Book' and while there is a wealth of
>information about the event, this is one detail I could not
>locate.

>-Scott C. Carr


Scott,

On page 161 of his book The Coming of the Saucers Arnold is seen
posing with his camera in a "CallAir" plane, on  page 9 he
states he was flying a "specially designed mountain airplane".
The identifier on the rudder appears to be N2913.  The last two
digits 13 are unclear.


Gary





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 13

                             Re: Fox TV Special

From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net>
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 20:45:23 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 11:13:11 -0500
Subject: Re: Fox TV Special


>Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 15:47:59 -0500
>From: Terry Blanton <commengr@bellsouth.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: Fox TV Special


>You'll find a great description and lots of pictures at:

>http://www.hooked.net/~rgeorge/sonofusion.html

>Sonoluminescence is believed to be related to cold fusion.


Terry, thanks so much for this reference.

As I understand sonoluminescence from reading the material on
this website, sound is not really translated into light.
Instead, the energy in very high frequency sound waves -- above
the normal range of human hearing -- can create vibrations in
certain substances that cause them to emit light.

What's important to understand, considering the discussion we've
been having here, is that the sound doesn't create any kind of
equivalent of itself in light. This is not, in other words, a
way of translating a particular sound frequency into a
particular light frequency. Instead, it's a physical process in
which sound energy stimulates the production of light, much (I
hope I've got this right) as electricity stimulates the
production of light in a light bulb. The particular nature of
the sound energy as we hear it (or, in this case, as a dog might
hear it) has no relationship with the particular nature of the
light energy it creates.

Greg Sandow






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 13

                        Re: Kenneth Arnold - Question

From: Kari Valimaa <suomen.ufotutkijat@kolumbus.fi>
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 04:28:09 +0200
Fwd Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 11:37:00 -0500
Subject: Re: Kenneth Arnold - Question


>From: Scott Carr <sardonica@erols.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Kenneth Arnold - Question
>Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 14:55:56 -0800

>Sorry to bother the list with another research question, but I
>am closing in on the finish line of a writing project, and am at
>the point of fine-tuning and checking minor details.

>Does anyone know what make of airplane Kenneth Arnold was flying
>during his famous sighting of June 24, 1947? I've looked in
>Jerome Clark's 'The UFO Book' and while there is a wealth of
>information about the event, this is one detail I could not
>locate.


Kenneth Arnold's airplane was single-engined Callier. According
to Jenny Randles ('The Complete Book of UFOs', Revised edition,
1997), it was specially designed for mountain work - capable of
landing in rough fields and pastures.

Kari Valimaa
kariv@usa.net






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 13

                             Re: Fox TV Special

From: Michael Christol <mchristo@mindspring.com>
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 21:37:13 -0600
Fwd Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 11:39:49 -0500
Subject: Re: Fox TV Special


>From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: Fox TV Special
>Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 04:29:47 -0500

>>Investigation', By Wendelle Stevens, says the following:

>>"At Excaliber Studios on Ventura Boulevard in Studio City,
>>California, Nils rognerud and Steve Singer, sound engineer and
>>electronics system designer, working together with a
>>Hewlett-Packard model 3580 Frequency Spectrum Analyzer, with
>>amemory unit, a Two-channel Oscilloscope, a Multi-track Mixer
>>and Amplitude Readout and Full Frequency Sound Control Board,
>>studied and analyzed a 3-minute segment of the later spacecraft
>>sounds that were recorede in front of 15 witnesses."

>Just so we don't get wowed by this long list of equipment...only
>the spectrum analyzer and the oscilloscope are needed for the
>analysis. The terminology may sound formidable, but in truth
>it's needlessly so. A multi-track mixer is, for instance, a
>redundant term -- all mixers are multi-track, since mixing many
>tracks together is what they're for. And in any case a mixer is
>nothing special or exotic, just a piece of standard studio gear,
>used in any professional recording.

>But nobody, to my knowlege, is in the business of analyzing
>sounds to discover what they are. Maybe the police need to do
>that sometimes, if a tape somehow turns up as evidence in a
>criminal case. But I don't think analyzing sounds to discover
>their origin is a common practice, simply because there's not
>much need for it.

>If I'm right about that, then any opinion these analysts have is
>suspect, because there isn't any body of knowledge they can draw
>on to support it. Even in 1986, it was (I'm pretty sure) easy to
>create unusual sounds simply by manipulating recordings of
>nature, machinery, electronic devices, animal noises, you name
>it. Play something backwards, and it's often unrecognizable.
>Slow it down, filter out some of the frequencies, layer other
>sounds over it (or, for a much more subtle kind of complexity,
>layer it with other manipulated versions of itself), and even a
>familiar sound will turn into something new and strange.

>With so many possibilities, could we ever know that we weren't
>hearing a 1986 Swiss hair dryer?


Greg...This was a total waste of post....

You apparently, based on what I just read, have never even heard
the sounds you commented on....

If I am wrong I appologize...but if I am correct, then before we
go any further with this please get a copy of the "CONTACT"
video, and listen to the sounds, and watch the and his group as
they show you how they arrived at their conclusions.

I know that you have virtually no respect for the material in
question...It is quite evident by the message you posted. Please
don't think that I am attacking you... I am not. I just want you
to listen to the information, then we will have something to
comment on.

The metal samples which Meier gave to Stevens were analyzed by
Marcel Vogel, and a video tape of the analysis was made as well
and is also available for you to see.

It's hard to consider available information if we allow Bias to
get in the way... Just basing one's opinion on what others on
this or other lists have to say against a case is not the
correct way to investigate the merits of a case.

I know there are those which have been classified as: "Noisey
Negativists," on this list. They despise the Meier case and have
openly attacked it from the beginning. These attacks can relate
directly back to William E. (Bill) Moore and Kal Korff... Please
don't be sucked into a conclusion until you have taken the time
to actually check out the available information which has been
compiled on the case.

Thanks for you patience with me Greg...

REgards, Mike






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 13

                 DISPATCH # 114 -- the weekly newsletter of

From: ParaScope@AOL.COM
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 22:35:00 EST
Fwd Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 11:42:20 -0500
Subject: DISPATCH # 114 -- the weekly newsletter of

S O M E T H I N G   S T R A N G E   I S   H A P P E N I N G

1/13/99

Quote of the Week

"Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it whether
it exists or not, diagnosing it incorrectly, and applying the
wrong remedy."

--Ernest Benn

-----------------------

Rant of the Week: �Be careful of what you say. It may destroy
your race.�

Every week we pick the wackiest, scariest, nastiest or funniest
rant from the hundreds of letters received by us here at
ParaScope headquarters, and present it to you as our Rant of the
Week. This week, �Lloyd� touches on, among other things, the
all-time second-favorite person among prospective ranters: Adolf
Hitler. (Jesus Christ is still the king, so to speak, among
ranters). Anyway, Lloyd warns us to watch our tongues because
you never know when you might be talking to the next Hitler. Or
Jesus. Enjoy.

"I'm not degrading anyone, but where in the hell did you all
(both North & South) get your education? The slave issue was the
tip of the iceburg. The war dealt with the south's hardships of
the plantations & economics compared to the rich North
Industries. I'm glad the south has it's attitude which it got
from the large amounts of Anglo-Saxon cultures/farmers primarly
from Irl/Scot lands. But no matter what, it was a lost war,
simply due to the massive Industries & resources the North had.
As to these people who believe so strongly in a man who had
"chronic acute syphilis" came up with the idea of a pure race,
no lower intelligence and for "ONLY GERMANS"... Many do not know
for example, His hate for Jews simply came from them picking on
him when he was studing art. I just told a good friend of mine
who has a baby on the way, "Each new born child carries within
them the power to save our world or destroy it". So, perhaps
people when it come to picking on others, becareful on what you
say. It may destroy your race. Now with the pure race ideas.
That was one hell of a lost cause... Why you may ask? It's
called gene purity rule... When a species has within pure genes
with no random sequences happening, nature takes over and forces
that probability to occur. You are going to have lower
intelligence like it or not. Mutations occure to advance a
species. Oh yea, Hitler had stolen large amounts of philosophy
from Existentialism which was sold to him from Neitz's Sister.
In truth, what did the world expect from Germany? The country
was dying because of sanctions from WW1... The people needed a
leader, they didn't care if it was a madman. They wanted to
survrive. Back in the 20's Our Government believed in a man
named Goddard whom had the idea of a pure intelligent race...
The exportation rate of newcomers into this country rose 300
percent! He used an IQ test in english on those who did not know
english... All in all... How much of reality has been slandered
and misconceived. How many consciences disturbed. How many Gods
sacrificed?"

------

All rants are printed �as is,� with spelling and grammar goofs
left uncorrected. Some rants may be edited for brevity or
clarity, to the extent such a thing is possible. If you�ve got a
rant you�d like to share, send it to pscplady@aol.com with
�possible rant� in the subject line of your letter.

-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+

Coming Up This Week!

Catch a number of great stories this week on the ParaScope web
and AOL sites, including daily updates to our Conspiracy
Newsline and Daily Dose features. Among the articles you'll want
to check out:



The Paper Trail: Up-to-date Declassification Review

The new issue of the Paper Trail, our monthly review of
declassification news, holds a smorgasbord of secret materials.
Highlights include Frank Sinatra's FBI file, newly released JFK
White House tapes, and the story of still-secret U.S. spy
documents on Princess Diana. What do we know now about these
topics that was once hidden away? Find out in the Paper Trail!

----------------

Confessions of a Skeptic

Some ParaScope readers have written to complain that our
articles are too skeptical. We've been called cynical, biased,
patronizing and closed-minded, and our editorial slant has been
deemed inappropriate for an alternative news service devoted to
fringe topics. It seems odd to some of you that we debunk and
dump on paranormal phenomena, when the bulk of our audience is
presumably made up of believers. In a unique editorial, Enigma
editor D. Trull adresses these readers' concerns by explaining
the rationale and objectives behind his skepticism, as well as
the common misconceptions that make skeptics so unpopular. And
in the process, he makes some startling confessions about the
things he does believe in! Don't miss it!

----------------

Conspiracy Newsline:

Oklahoma City Grand Jury releases final report, rejects
"conspiracy theories"; David Hoffman, author of "The Oklahoma
City Bombing and the Politics of Terror," is charged with
alleged "jury tampering" in OKC grand jury's sole indictment;
London activists occupy Shell Oil management offices to protest
human rights abuses; Oklahoma Death Penalty teach-in focuses on
Mumia Abu- Jamal and the racist implementation of capital
punishment; lots more news.


----------------

UFO Roundup:

The latest sighting reports and news from the world of UFOlogy.
"Chupacabra" reportedly raids home in Cayey, Puerto Rico;
earliest known prehistoric human handwriting found in the tomb
of King Scorpion in Egypt; group investigates UFO sightings in
Argentina; a classic case from the UFO Files; and some fun UFO
web sites to check out.

...All this, and much, much more!


-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+

Jane, Stop This Crazy Thing!

Thought you were tough enough to handle the Dispatch and now you
realize you're not? Starting to think you've made a wrong turn
off the info highway? Well, we're only going to go over this
once, so listen up!

To unsubscribe yourself from Dispatch:

1) Send e-mail to: listserv@listserv.aol.com

2) In the body of your mail, type: unsubscribe dispatch

That's all there is to it!

Likewise, to subscribe:

1) Send e-mail to: listserv@listserv.aol.com

2) In the body of your mail, type: subscribe dispatch

----------------------------------------

ParaScope
11288 Ventura Blvd., #904
Studio City, CA 91604

America Online -- keyword: parascope
parascope@aol.com

World-Wide Web -- http://www.parascope.com
info@parascope.com





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 13

                           Re: Sightings - Czarnik

From: Michael Christol <mchristo@mindspring.com>
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 21:53:45 -0600
Fwd Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 11:44:36 -0500
Subject: Re: Sightings - Czarnik


>From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
>Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 11:12:50 +0000
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: Sightings - Czarnik

>Hi Rebecca,

>To my knowledge, no UFO whistle blower has ever come out with
>any "secrets" that they can prove; therefore, the powers that be
>probably would not want to inadvertantly validate such a
>person's claims by publicly retaliating about something that is
>not even supposed to exist. In short, the person poses no threat
>without proof.

Remove the word UFO from this post and you have a totally
different post.

Rembember the revelation that the US had used radiation on
pregnant women as well as other peoples in the 1950? Whistle
blowers have come forth in the past...

However, in regards to UFOs, like you Roger, I don't know of
any, if we leave out such names as:  William (Bill) English,
William (Bill) Cooper, Clifford Stone, Robert Dean, Jess
Marcelle, Col. Phil Corso, Dr. Michael Wolf, Bob Lazar and
others.

Of course, these are just names and they may or may not have
actually had proof of what they speak...especially the first
two...<sorry guys.>

>On the other hand, if someone DID have proof that would be
>damaging to the powers that be, then it's quite likely that the
>general public would never be allowed to even hear about that
>person's existence. In such a case, the whistle blower in
>question would have much bigger problems that "loss of pension",
>if you get my drift.

>Does this answer your question?
>I really hope not...


I would say that you are correct in your assumption here Roger.
<G>

REgards, Mike






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 13

                         Fireball Over New Hampshire

From: Greg St. Pierre <StrmNut@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 22:49:22 EST
Fwd Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 11:47:14 -0500
Subject: Fireball Over New Hampshire


Sunday was a strange day for New Hampshire, my home state. At
5:50 a.m., a minor earthquake was felt in southern NH and
northern Massachusetts, measuring about 2.7. An aftershock of
about the same magnitude occured at 10:20 a.m. Not a big deal,
but around here windows don't rattle unless a big truck is
passing by, and while tremors are rare in these parts, two on
the same day is unheard of.

Also, read the following story which appeared in the Monday
edition of Manchester's Union Leader:


----


'Green flash' streaks through central NH sky

By Derek Rose
Union leader Staff

Bill Slatton was driving home when he saw what looked to be a
green fireball streak across the night sky in Pittsfield
yesterday.

"My God, this thing was as clear as day," he remembers thinking
to himself. "It was huge. It was right along side of us."

His fiancee, Kathy Bickford, saw it too. Police departments in
Bow and Northfield report sightings also, from callers
describing a "green flash" in the sky.

Slatton said he and his fiancee saw the fireball for a few
seconds as they drove south on on Route 28 in Pittsfield around
7:05 p.m. yesterday.

He said it was like the fireball that crashes into the earth in
a recent Dunkin Donuts commercial.

"It was descending almost like a plane descending. It's hard to
describe, it was just so awesome."

The object was about the size of a nickel or a quarter in the
sky, and perhaps a few thousand feet away and a few thousand
feet up, although it was hard to tell, Slatton said.

His stepson, who was in the van, didn't notice the object, he
said.

They tried to find where the fireball crashed, Slatton said, but
then realized if it was a meteor it "would leave such an impact,
we'd feel it."

They didn't find anything, but after arriving at the Epsom
traffic circle there seemed to be some kind of haze in the sky,
he said.

It was to the left of them as they drove south, perhaps landing
or crashing in the Pittsfield, Epsom or Chichester area, said
Slatton, a property maintenance contractor from Chichester.

"It was definitely not a reflection or anything, it was very
clear," he said.

James Ryan, a professor of physics and space science at the
University of New Hampshire, didn't think the report was
strange. "It could be a meteorite," he said. "Estimates of how
far away these things are are very unreliable."

---

Note: Saw a similar fireball about 11 years ago directly over
Manchester NH. Almost crashed the car as a result. It
was a bright green firball, with smaller pieces breaking off.
Thought for sure it was going to hit the ground, but alas,
it burned out first.

Greg St. Pierre






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 13

                     Re: Art Bell - Friday, January 8/9

From: Scott Ribordy <sdr@ns.net>
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 04:15:29 GMT
Fwd Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 11:50:48 -0500
Subject: Re: Art Bell - Friday, January 8/9


>Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 13:56:28 -0500
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net>
>Subject: Re: Art Bell - Friday, January 8/9

>>From: Scott Ribordy <sdr@ns.net>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>Subject: Re: Art Bell - Friday, January 8/9
>>Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 23:18:55 GMT


>>>Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 16:36:10 -0500
>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>>From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net>
>>>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Art Bell - Friday, January 8/9

<snip>

John:

>>>Actually I'm still waiting to see if Bell ever pays a price for
>>>the Hale-Bopp/Mothership series. There _is_ a connection between
>>>that and the deaths in the Heavens Gate Cult that neither one of
>>>those two irresponsible bozos (Bell and the other jamoke from
>>>the "Nearsight Institute" that propagated that hoax - apologies
>>>to Bob Shell for using his 'moniker') ever had to answer for.
>>>People died.

me:

>>Pray tell, what is the transgression that Art Bell should "pay a
>>price" for? Consider your answer carefully lest Budd Hopkins or
>>a certain unnamed Webmaster be called on to pay the same price.


John:

>I don't respond well to 'threats' Scott. If you ever wish to
>just 'talk' (maybe) we can communicate with each other. Until
>then go threaten Skippy McGurk, maybe _he_ cares. In the
>meantime, don't look for any future responses from me.

Certainly no threat. Just a subtle admonition for someone who I
perceive as a stone-throwing, glass-house-dweller.


>>Pray tell, what is the transgression that Art Bell should "pay
>>a price" for?

>I stated it _clearly_ in my original.  Is there a reading
>comprehension problem that you have that I'm not aware of? You
>ask me a question and them post the answer above it all in one
>e-mail. Amazing!

Thanks. Perhaps I misunderstood and could impose on you for a
clarification. I got the impression that you felt Art should
"pay a price" for reporting on something that he thought was an
interesting discovery. (The fact that some individuals took the
information a little too seriously and made some questionable
decisions based on that information seems, to me, to be no fault
of Art's.) Is _that_ what you think he should "pay a price" for?

Do you feel that you or Mr. Hopkins should "pay a price" for
propagating the alien abduction meme and all the associated harm
that it causes?


>The statements I made, and all other references, are in my
>original. Reread it a couple of times and maybe (unless there is
>some problem you have translating written words into concepts
>and ideas) your poorly asked question will get answered there.

>BTW, do you realize that by resorting to 'threats' it reveals
>far more about _you_ than it ever does about me, your intended
>target! Kinda like aiming a rubber band hoping to hit someone
>else and having it snap back in ones own face. You should know
>that if you engage in that kind of thing often enough, your mug
>will soon begin to resemble the "before" picture in an acne
>commercial.


Is this another example of the kind of warm empathy and human
compassion that the 'recently probed' can look forward to from
the Intruder Foundation? Quite revealing indeed.


Non-threateningly Yours,

Scott Ribordy
sdr@ns.net






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 13

                             Re: Fox TV Special

From: Michael Christol <mchristo@mindspring.com>
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 22:14:41 -0600
Fwd Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 11:53:13 -0500
Subject: Re: Fox TV Special


>From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
>Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 11:43:07 +0000
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Fox TV Special

>>With so many possibilities, could we ever know that we weren't
>>hearing a 1986 Swiss hair dryer?


>Of _course_ it's a 1986 Swiss hair dryer.

>But it was recorded in 1947!!! <G>


Grin...that is so, Roger...

REgards, Mike






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 13

                        Re: Kenneth Arnold - Question

From: Donald Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 00:24:41 -0300
Fwd Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 11:59:07 -0500
Subject: Re: Kenneth Arnold - Question


>From: Scott Carr <sardonica@erols.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Kenneth Arnold - Question
>Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 14:55:56 -0800


>Does anyone know what make of airplane Kenneth Arnold was flying
>during his famous sighting of June 24, 1947? I've looked in
>Jerome Clark's 'The UFO Book' and while there is a wealth of
>information about the event, this is one detail I could not
>locate.

>-Scott C. Carr

Ken Arnold's airplane was a Callair. Pierre LeGrange can give
you the registration if you need it. Anyone have his email?

Don Ledger





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 13

                             Dilettoso To Korff

From: Jim Dilettoso <jim@villagelabs.com>
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 21:41:41 -0700
Fwd Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 12:08:33 -0500
Subject: Dilettoso To Korff

[Non-Subscriber Post]

Mr. Korff,

I am still awaiting your response on these matters. There has
been enough time.

1. Your credentials in image processing and image analysis.
Since you made a statement ..that video is 400 lines per inch
and that film is "millions" of lines. I have a sense that you
have NO IDEA what constitutes image processing and image
analysis.

2. The source of your false information on my "so called
lawsuit" with my investors.

3. Furthermore, are you really an expert in terrorism and did
SDI work at Livermore and Berkley Labs. Dr. Winifred Salsbury,
one of the top persons EVER at these labs is an friend of ours.
So is Robert Cornog. Deliver your information accurately, as we
know the facts. If you are such a big shot why don't you
respond.

I am a very busy person. I do not have time for your
shennanigans. You have deliberately attempted to disentigrate
the positive work of many people. What do you have to say for
yourself. WHAT MOTIVATES YOU.

You state on your website that Jim Dilettoso is responsible for
your statements regarding Art Bell.

This is a complete Lie and you know it.

You completely manufactured this information.

You may have had help from Jeff Payton aka Erskine. If so say
it.

You stated that THREE Radio stations Management told you that
Art Bell called those stations.

Explain how my letter to ONE station became your statements
about Art Bell. You are a LIAR.

Furthermore you state in your HOME page www.kalkorff.com that

1. Village Labs is going out of business

2. A fellow con of Jim Dilettoso spills the beans.

PROVE YOUR SOURCES.

These things are not true and you know it.

What are you.

Waiting,
Jim Dilettoso.






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 13

               Official US Air Force 'Roswell Incident' Report

From: ames Bond Johnson <JBONJO@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 02:46:10 EST
Fwd Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 15:21:22 -0500
Subject: Official US Air Force 'Roswell Incident' Report



Excerpts from the Official US Air Force
"Roswell Incident" Investigative Report:
"CASE CLOSED!"  (1994-1995)

"What is uniquely lacking in the entire exploration and
exploitation of the "Roswell Incident" is official positive
documentary or physical evidence of any kind that supports the
claims of those who allege that something unusual happened."

(Only with the discovery in 1998 by the international RPIT
(Roswell Photo Interpretation Team) of numerous strange curved,
geometric shaped glyphs and symbols emblazoned upon the Roswell
crash debris as photographed in the 8th Air Force Headquarters
office of Brig. General Roger Ramey on July 8, 1947, is there
finally both such documentary and physical evidence. A printed
message held by General Ramey refers to "VICTIMS OF THE CRASH"
and states that they were being brought to Fort Worth; the
message appears to be time stamped just a few minutes prior to
the taking of the photos. It is speculated that General Ramey
was learning of the recovery of alien bodies in a second crash
location even as he was being photographed.)

"Dr. Jesse A. Marcel, Jr., a physician and surgeon in Helena,
Montana, (son of the late Major Jesse Marcel and 11-years-old at
the time of the incident), on May 6, 1991, executed an  official
Affidavit. It stated that "... There were three categories of
debris: a thick, foil like metallic gray substance; a brittle,
brownish-black plastic-like material, like Bakelite; and there
were fragments of what appeared to be I-beams. On the inner
surface of the I-beam, there appeared to be a type of writing.
This writing was a purple-violet hue, and it had an embossed
appearance. The figures were composed of curved, geometric
hapes. It had no resemblance to Russian, Japanese or any other
foreign language. It resembled hieroglyphics, but it had no
animal-like characters." (Each of the types of materials
described by Dr. Marcel are to be seen in the Ramey office
photos.)

"There is one additional person who was universally acknowledged
to have been involved in the recovery (of the Roswell wreckage),
Sheridan Cavitt, Lt Col, USAF, (Ret). Cavitt is credited in all
claims of having accompanied Major Marcel to the ranch to
recover the debris."

"Lt Col Cavitt was interviewed on May 24, 1994, at his home.
Cavitt provided a signed, sworn statement (Atch 17 ) of his
recollections in this matter. He also consented to having the
interview tape-recorded. A transcript of that recording is at
Atch 18. In this interview, Cavitt related that he had been
contacted on numerous occasions by UFO researchers and had
willingly talked with many of them; however, he felt that he had
oftentimes been misrepresented or had his comments taken out of
context so that their true meaning was changed."

"Lt Col Cavitt also reviewed the famous Ramey/Marcel photographs
(Atch 16) of the wreckage taken to Ft. Worth (often claimed by
LITO researchers to have been switched and the remnants of a
balloon substituted for it) and he identified the materials
depicted in those photos as consistent with the materials that
he recovered from the ranch."

"Similarly, Irving Newton, Major, USAF, (Ret) was located and
interviewed. Newton was a weather officer assigned to Fort
Worth, who was on duty when the Roswell debris was sent there in
July, 1947. He was told that he was to report to General Ramey's
office to view the material. In a signed, sworn statement (Atch
30) Newton related that ."..I walked into the General's office
where this supposed flying saucer was lying all over the floor.
As soon as I saw it, I giggled and asked if that was the flying
saucer ... I told them that this was a balloon and a RAWIN
target..." Newton also stated that "..while I was examining the
debris, Major Marcel was picking up pieces of the target sticks
and trying to convince me that some notations on the sticks were
alien writings. There were figures on the sticks, lavender or
pink in color, which appeared to be weather faded markings, with
no rhyme or reason (sic). He did not convince me that these were
alien writings." Newton concluded his statement by relating that
"..During the ensuing years I have been interviewed by many
authors, I have been quoted and misquoted. The facts remain as
indicated above." (A comparison of Ramey and Newton photos shows
that indeed some of the "beams" shown in the Ramey photos are
missing from the Newton photo.)

"The blueprints for the "Pilot Balloon Target ML307C/AP
Assembly" (generically, the radar target assembly) were located
at the Army Signal Corps Museum at Fort Monmouth and obtained. A
copy is appended as Atch 29. This blueprint provides the
specification for the foil material, tape, wood, eyelets, and
string used and the assembly instructions thereto. An actual
device was also obtained for study with the assistance of
Professor Moore... An examination of this device revealed it to
be simply made of aluminum-colored foil-like material over a
stronger paper-like material, attached to balsa wood sticks,
affixed with tape, glue, and twine."

(While there does appear to be included in the Ramey office
photos a foil-like material, it includes the strange glyphs and
symbols affixed in an "orderly" manner, which would indicate
some type of non-terrestrial writing. The "sticks" displayed
appear to be made of some type of hollow, plastic material
rather than wood and there is NO evidence of any tape, glue or
twine.)

"Additionally, the researchers obtained from the Archives of the
University of Texas at Arlington (UTA), a set of original (i.e.
first generation) prints of the photographs taken at the time by
the Fort Worth Star-Telegram, that depicted Ramey and Marcel
with the wreckage. A close review of these photos (and a set of
first generation negatives also subsequently obtained from UTA)
revealed several interesting observations. First, although in
some of the literature cited above, Marcel allegedly stated that
he had his photo taken with the "real" UFO wreckage and then it
was subsequently removed and the weather balloon wreckage
substituted for it, a comparison shows that the same wreckage
appeared in all the photos of Marcel and Ramey. The photos also
depicted that this material was lying on what appeared to be
some sort of wrapping paper (consistent with the affidavit
excerpt of crew chief Porter, above)." (Thus there is no
evidence whatsoever of any "switch" of the "real" Roswell
wreckage as collected by Major Marcel and Lt Col Cavitt.)

"It was also noted that in the two photos of Ramey he had a
piece of paper in his hand. In one, it was folded over so
nothing could be seen. In the second, however, there appears to
be text printed on the paper. In an attempt to read this text to
determine if it could shed any further light on locating
documents relating to this matter, the photo was sent to a
national level organization (believed to be the CIA) for
digitizing and subsequent photo interpretation and analysis.
This organization was also asked to scrutinize the digitized
photos for any indication of the flowered tape (or
"hieroglyphics", depending on the point of view) that were
reputed to be visible to some of the persons who observed the
wreckage prior to it getting to Fort Worth. This organization
reported on July 20, 1994, that even after digitizing, the
photos were of insufficient quality to visualize either of the
details sought for analysis. This organization was able to
obtain measurements from the "sticks" visible in the debris
after it was ascertained by an interview of the original
photographer (Dr. J. Bond Johnson) what kind of camera he used."
(A 4"x5" Speed Graphic Press Camera with black and white cut
film were used.)

(RPIT members report being perplexed that the "national level
organization" utilized by the USAF for digitizing and subsequent
photo interpretation and analysis was unable to locate any of
the numerous symbols or read any of the Ramey message text since
these are readily observed by RPIT.)

"This report was generated as an official response to the GAO,
and to document the considerable effort expended by the Air
Force on their behalf it is anticipated that that they will
request a copy of this report to help formulate the formal
report of their efforts. It is recommended that this document
serve as the final Air Force report related to the Roswell
matter, for the GAO, or any other inquiries.

RICHARD L. WEAVER, COL,
USAF DIRECTOR, SECURITY AND SPECIAL PROGRAM OVERSIGHT."







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 13

                        Re: Rhetorical Questionnaire?

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 00:49:38 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 14:44:10 -0500
Subject: Re: Rhetorical Questionnaire?


>From: John W. Ratcliff <jratcliff@worldnet.att.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Rhetorical Questionnaire?
>Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 23:25:21 -0600


Just what is a rhetorical questionnaire?

>Don't worry, I won't/can't.

However, I looked over your answers and decided that the
appropriate answer to each question/should have been.....

Somewhere between "all of the above" and "none of the above"







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 13

                         Re: Kenneth Arnold - Answer

From: Kathleen Andersen <KAnder6444@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 02:00:56 EST
Fwd Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 15:45:31 -0500
Subject: Re: Kenneth Arnold - Answer


>From: Scott Carr <sardonica@erols.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
> Subject: Kenneth Arnold - Question
>Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 14:55:56 -0800

>Does anyone know what make of airplane Kenneth Arnold was flying
>during his famous sighting of June 24, 1947?
> -Scott C. Carr

Its a question that has a vague answer by most accounts. It was
a Call Air especially designed for mountain search and rescue.
Can do more checking if you need it.

Kathleen Andersen
MUFON State Section Director
Seattle Washington






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 13

                        Re: Watch For My Coming Hoax!

From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net>
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 02:25:45 -0800
Fwd Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 18:55:45 -0500
Subject: Re: Watch For My Coming Hoax!


>Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 11:06:56 -0500
>From: Terry Blanton <commengr@bellsouth.net>
>To: updates@globalserve.com
>Subject: [Fwd:] Watch For My Coming Hoax!

>We've been warned!

>>From alt.alien.visitors:

> <><><><><><><><><><>

>From: Michael Edelman <mje@mich.com>
>Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
>Subject: Watch for my coming hoax!
>Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 12:39:37 -0500
>Organization: Wayne State University

>Fellow aliens, spooks, paranoids (you know who you
>are) and schitzophrenics:

>I am just about ready to launch my massive saucer
>hoax on the nation, and I'm giving you advance
>warning. I do so so (1) you'll know it's a hoax
>and (2) to prove that it can work even if I
>disclose it's a hoax in advance.

>Watch for it!


This sound like an interesting, ah, experiment.


Michael: Thank you for #1 above.

Regarding #2, I don't think you can prove much, in all fairness,
unless the "pigeons" being hoaxed are pretty much the same group
as the people being warned in advance!

Clearly, the alt.alien.visitors newsgroup, as well as this List
are warned as per the above.

If however, the hoax succeeds not with these groups, but instead
with the audience of some late night talk show etc. then you
haven't proven anything we could not have predicted in advance!

May I suggest that you try and publicize your hoax in the making
on the Art Bell show for example? How about some little press
releases? Local newspapers might find it interesting enough to
print..

Naturally, there are people on any list who will believe
anything no matter what. Again, if their numbers are relatively
small, nothing new is proven.

Best regards

- Larry Hatch






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 13

                      Re: Secret USAF 'SETI' Projects?

From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 08:00:16 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 19:18:04 -0500
Subject: Re: Secret USAF 'SETI' Projects?


>From: Bob Huff <bobhuff@tidalwave.net>
>To: <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: Secret USAF 'SETI' Projects?
>Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 17:34:04 -0500

>A friend of mine who sold computers and other sophisticated
>equipment to his clients in the Southwest Range - Los Alamos,
>Sandia, Tonopah, Area 51...- has expressed that the selection of
>the location of Socorro NM for the large antenna arrays had a
>connection with the Roswell event. He implies they were/are used
>for:

>- two way communications
>- and not with objects of terrestrial origin
>- part of larger tracking/triangulation network

>Best, Bob

If one checks a topographic map one finds that the VLA is a good
ways West of Socorro in a relatively unique area The Plains of
San Augustine or San Agustin. It is flatter than a pacncake at
an altitude over 6500 feet, is surrounded by mountains up to
10,000 feet and was a lake bed until about 5000 years ago.

It is a very sparsely inhabited area.

The land was cheap, flat, and, of great importance, out of reach
of most radio noise background. Even though I am convinced that
indeed an alien sapcecraft crashed in the area in July 1947, the
people I talked to felt it was cheap land in an ideal location
for listening. There is a Y shaped track with each leg about 12
miles long.. Catron County was the least populated of all NM
counties.

The Farr Ranch is 120,000 acres.The Plains is about 60miles by
20 miles with the Continental Divide alongs its Western Edge and
Magdalena at its NE corner. We saw herds of antelope while
flying over it in a helicopter.

Stan Friedman





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 13

                           Re: Sightings - Czarnik

From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 08:06:07 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 19:24:27 -0500
Subject: Re: Sightings - Czarnik


>Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 18:06:10 -0800 (PST)
>From: Rebecca <xiannekei@yahoo.com>
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Sightings - Czarnik
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>

>>Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 17:10:31 -0600
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>From: Michael Christol <mchristo@mindspring.com>
>>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Sightings - Czarnik

>>The people who know will not talk becuase they fear it being
>>traced back to them and then they loose their jobs, pensions,
>>and other financial perks for which they have worked so
>>dilligently over the years.  Not only that, but the word goes
>>around in their field, that they cannot be trusted with
>>confidential information...  I understand this...but somewhere
>>someone has to unite these people as a Unit and then they will
>>control the leverage. Until then, we just wait...<sigh>

>I see this claim about people losing their pensions and benefits
>for talking about secret things, however, of all the people who
>have spoken out about the secrets they possessed, such as Corso,
>Cooper, Dean, and others, I can't seem to remember one of these
>people ever having suffered the consequences of losing a pension
>or benefits.

>Does anyone know of anyone involved with UFOs or abduction who
>has actually suffered loss of pension or benefits because they
>spoke out?


Perhaps this is because neither Corso, nor Milton William
Cooper, nor Robert Dean have provided any classified
documentation to support their claims? The same goes for Lazar,
Kaufmann, Kirkwood, Wolf. Rumors are not punishable.

Stan Friedman






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 13

                           Re: Sightings - Czarnik

From: Ron Decker <decker@wt.net>
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 06:28:28 -0600
Fwd Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 19:30:05 -0500
Subject: Re: Sightings - Czarnik


>Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 18:06:10 -0800 (PST)
>From: Rebecca <xiannekei@yahoo.com>
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Sightings - Czarnik
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>

>>Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 17:10:31 -0600
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>From: Michael Christol <mchristo@mindspring.com>
>>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Sightings - Czarnik

>>The people who know will not talk becuase they fear it being
>>traced back to them and then they loose their jobs, pensions,
>>and other financial perks for which they have worked so
>>dilligently over the years. Not only that, but the word goes
>>around in their field, that they cannot be trusted with
>>confidential information... I understand this...but somewhere
>>someone has to unite these people as a Unit and then they will
>>control the leverage. Until then, we just wait...<sigh>

>I see this claim about people losing their pensions and benefits
>for talking about secret things, however, of all the people who
>have spoken out about the secrets they possessed, such as Corso,
>Cooper, Dean, and others, I can't seem to remember one of these
>people ever having suffered the consequences of losing a pension
>or benefits.

>Does anyone know of anyone involved with UFOs or abduction who
>has actually suffered loss of pension or benefits because they
>spoke out?

Rebecca,

Offhand, no.

But the perceived threat would be just as effective.

Having never taken a loyalty oath I can't speak from experience,
but I'd wager that such an oath entails some sort of penalty for
breaking that oath. And I'm sure that most of the folks 'in the
know' have taken a loyalty/nondisclosure oath or something to
that effect.

From a mundane standpoint, I know this effect is alive and well
in business having seen it first hand.

A few of our customers are major oil refineries. One of them
planned a major expansion to which we were privy and hoped to
profit. They wanted to keep this information under wraps.
Somehow, word of the proposed expansion leaked to the industry
press and the news was soon all over the place.

The customer blamed us, specifically one of our representatives,
and banned him from attending any more meetings, ever. Further,
they insinuated that our contracts were in jeopardy because of
the leak. No one knows who leaked the information, but we got
blamed in any event.

It's a unique experience that definitely gets your attention.

Best regards,
Ron.






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 13

                           Re: Sightings - Czarnik

From: Ron Decker <decker@wt.net>
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 07:37:07 -0600
Fwd Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 22:02:15 -0500
Subject: Re: Sightings - Czarnik


>Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 17:10:31 -0600
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Michael Christol <mchristo@mindspring.com>
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Sightings - Czarnik

>>Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 09:20:41 -0600
>>From: Ron Decker <decker@wt.net>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Sightings - Czarnik

>>Like many interested in this subject I hear stories that are not
>>verifiable. Just tales that get told and passed around. I have
>>no doubt that what my friend related to me is true. Unfortunately
>>the story doesn't seem to be able to go any further.

>The people who know will not talk becuase they fear it being
>traced back to them and then they loose their jobs, pensions,
>and other financial perks for which they have worked so
........

>>I've already asked my friend about setting up a meeting with the
>>guy who gave him the story. The NASA employee won't. Pretty
>>typical.

>Ok Ron...I appreciate your efforts. _If_ something changes, I
>would appreciate you letting me know...

>Take care. If I can do anything for you, just let me know..

Mike,

Thanks very much for the offer. If anything -does- change I will
certainly be in touch.

I believe you're correct in your views regarding
whistle-blowers. While they may want to come forth, they still
gotta eat! And that's a pretty strong incentive to zip one's lip
whether the threat is real or perceived.

Oddly, this same friend's father once worked for NASA as a
tracker during various missions. He claims that during the first
moon mission he personally tracked 'unknowns' following the
spacecraft all the way from the earth to the moon and back
again.

Another tantalizing, unverifiable story. And I've already asked;
the answer was the same.

In Galveston County, Texas, where I live, I interviewed a couple
of witnesses to a large sighting here a couple of years ago.
According to the reporter who filed the story, approximately 60
people saw UFOs 'dancing' around a NOAA weather station here.

The reporter called these witnesses who then called me. They
didn't want anyone else to have their phone numbers. One witness
who had given the bulk of the information to the reporter
wouldn't speak with me at all.

Neither of the witnesses (both women) would give me their names
but recounted the incident and another besides that involved a
cigar- shaped UFO dipping into the waters of Galveston Bay. But
no personal information.

The fear is palpable. Whether it's justified or not is another
matter and probably doesn't matter in the end. The net effect is
the same.

I've spoken with many folks who have had anomalous experiences.
Those who share them seem glad to do so. If you ask them if
they'd be willing to go public, well, that's another story.

Best regards,
Ron.





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 13

                             Re: Fox TV Special

From: David Crundall <dec@psychology.nottingham.ac.uk>
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 15:51:09 +0100
Fwd Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 22:02:15 -0500
Subject: Re: Fox TV Special


>>From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>Subject: Re: Fox TV Special
>>Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 12:21:54 -0500

>>>Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 22:52:40 -0500
>>>From: bruce maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
>>>Subject: Re: Fox TV Special
>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>

>>>Just a technical point here: there IS a way to "translate sound
>>>into light", but it plays no role in this discussion. The
>>>phenomenon of "sonoluminescence" does appear to be the direct
>>>conversion of acoustic energy or power into light by focusing of
>>>sound waves into a fluid under particular circumstances. The
>>>phenomenon is not yet understood. There is no color-frequency
>>>relationship, however (at least not that I'm aware of).,

>>Very interesting. Thanks for correcting me, Bruce. It would be
>>interesting to know what relationships -- if any -- are created
>>between the sound and the light.

My apologies if this point has already occurred in this thread,
but there is a natural phenomenon where sound evokes colours in
the human system. This tendency is called synesthesia. It was
most famously investigated by the Russian neuropsychologist
Luria (1968) who studied a subject who reported a crossover of
sensory modalities. Most commonly this subject would report
patches of colour for certain sounds, though all five senses
have been reportedly mixed in some synesthesics. Similarly to
Bruce, I could not tell you whether there is a consistent
relationship across subjects between colour and frequency,
though I doubt it.


Dave Crundall





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 13

                        Re: Kenneth Arnold - Question

From: Karl T. Pflock <Ktperehwon@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 11:20:57 EST
Fwd Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 22:02:15 -0500
Subject: Re: Kenneth Arnold - Question

>From: Scott Carr <sardonica@erols.com>
>To: "'UFO UpDates - Toronto'" <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: UFO CUlts - A research question...
>Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 12:51:14 -0800


SCOTT & List --

>Does anyone know what make of airplane Kenneth Arnold was flying
>during his famous sighting of June 24, 1947?

It was a Call-Air A-2.

Say, when are you going to send me the promised tape of my
appearance on your show?...

-- Cheers, KARL





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 13

                Re: Ken Arnold's Call Air & Deltoid Pumpkins

From: GT McCoy <gtmccoy@harborside.com>
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 09:22:33 -0800
Fwd Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 22:02:15 -0500
Subject: Re: Ken Arnold's Call Air & Deltoid Pumpkins


Hello again all,

I have returned  from my  skiing adventures and encounter with
an Unidentified Flying Snowboardist.

While I  am healing, I noticed a couple of threads: One ,the
question of Arnold's Call Air A2, good airplane, been around a
couple, superior to the Piper Supercub, 25 or so built only a
handful still flying (4-5).

The Call Air line was eventually only into Ag Aircraft and
eventually absorbed by Rockwell. Two the Deltoid Pumpkin seed
has me bugged. It seems that I remember either the designer or
the Areon Co. was orginally attatched to a Christian missionary
org.

I also remember this occured in the mid 60's and their 'pumpkin
seed' actually flew propelled by a small horizontally opposed
(clylinder arrangement) engine. The goal, as I recall was to use
the ol' Deltoid for missionary work.

GT McCoy






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 13

                           Re: Sightings - Czarnik

From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 10:16:34 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 22:17:16 -0500
Subject: Re: Sightings - Czarnik


>Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 18:36:44 -0600
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Michael Christol <mchristo@mindspring.com>
>Subject: Re: Sightings - Czarnik

>>Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 18:06:10 -0800 (PST)
>>From: Rebecca <xiannekei@yahoo.com>
>>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Sightings - Czarnik
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>

>>I see this claim about people losing their pensions and benefits
>>for talking about secret things, however, of all the people who
>>have spoken out about the secrets they possessed, such as Corso,
>>Cooper, Dean, and others, I can't seem to remember one of these
>>people ever having suffered the consequences of losing a pension
>>or benefits.

>I don't know that anyone has ever lost a pension, but I have
>talked to retired military people, who say they were threatened
>with such if they taked about some of the things they were
>associated with...

>I once made a trip to Marysville, Kansas to talk with a Retired
>Air Force officer, who allegedly "escorted" a UFO which was having
>mechanical problems...

>However, when I got there, He would not talk to me...It had been
>arranged by a friend of mine who lived in Marysville...Later,
>my friend told me he talked to the man again after I had returned
>home, and he told him he could not risk loosing his pension at
>his advanced age...

I don't think that there's any question that regulations are in
place that would allow for the loss of pension and health
benefits if a security oath is violated.  Depending on the
incident, it might also involve prosecution and imprisonment.

A point was raised yesturday that any prosecution, or denial of
benefits, would serve to validate the statements being made as
true, so that is unlikely to happen when "black projects" (or
UFOs) are involved.  Any breach involving national security at
that level would most likely be handled behind closed doors, and
those involved would be warned to not say anything about it in
public.

All this being said, it also provides someone who is trying to
gain attention (for whatever reason) a convenient excuse as to
why they "can't devulge details", or talk about it with those
who might ask too many questions.  Many people have argued that
one way to get the "truth" out would be to change the
regulations and grant immunity to those who speak out about the
military's involvment with UFOs.  However, I have to wonder if
this will bring forth more valuable information, or perhaps a
different set of reasons as to why they can't talk.

A few thoughts.

Steve





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 13

                       Re: Kenneth Arnold Question #2

From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 12:52:06 EST
Fwd Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 22:41:26 -0500
Subject: Re: Kenneth Arnold Question #2


From: Scott Carr <sardonica@erols.com>
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 18:51:33 -0800
Fwd Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 10:22:09 -0500
Subject: Re: Kenneth Arnold Question #2


>If you will allow me to once more delve into the minutia of the
>Kevin Arnold case - Arnold (according to Jerome Clark's 'The UFO
>Book) detoured from a straight flight to Yakima, to Mt. Rainier
>in order to try and sight the wreckage of a Marine transport
>which had gone down (a $5000 reward was being offered for
>discovery of the transport) - Does anyone no what ever became of
>the Marine transport? How long did it take to find it? Were
>there any survivors?

I found the following small item in the Santa Fe New Mexican,
July 23, 1947:

LONGMIRE, Wash., July 23. (UP) -- A search party trudged up
the ice-covered soutwest slop of Mt. Ranier today to investigate
airplane wreckage tentatively identified as a Marine transport
missing since Dec. 10 with 32 persons aboard.

The wreckage was sighted through binoculars by Assistant Chief
Ranger Bill Butler of the national park service last Monday
[July 21].  Butler said parts of the aircraft were widely
scattered and appeared to be at the 10,000-foot level on South
Tahoma glacier.


Obviously there were no survivors.

Hope this helps.

David Rudiak





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 13

                             Re: Fox TV Special

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 13:36:21 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 22:57:20 -0500
Subject: Re: Fox TV Special


>From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: Fox TV Special
>Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 12:21:54 -0500


>>Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 22:52:40 -0500
>>From: bruce maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
>>Subject: Re: Fox TV Special
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>

>>Just a technical point here: there IS a way to "translate sound
>>into light", but it plays no role in this discussion. The
>>phenomenon of "sonoluminescence" does appear to be the direct
>>conversion of acoustic energy or power into light by focusing of
>>sound waves into a fluid under particular circumstances. The
>>phenomenon is not yet understood. There is no color-frequency
>>relationship, however (at least not that I'm aware of).,>

>Very interesting. Thanks for correcting me, Bruce. It would be
>interesting to know what relationships -- if any -- are created
>between the sound and the light. Do you know anywhere I can read
>more?


Try:

www.sonoluminescence.com

Or, better yet, do a web search. I got 400 hits!

OK, Greg, here's your chance for a Nobel Prize: explain
sonoluminescence. Nobody knows how it works. In water a
converging sound wave sets up a pressure field tat acts on a
tiny bubble in the water in such a way as to create a pulse of
light. When this was first discovered years ago people were
amazed. They were more amazed as the time duration of the light
pulse was measured. I think it was only abou 10 years ago that
experimental equipment got good enough (fast enough) to measure
these bursts which are on the order of 50 picoseconds ( 50 times
ten raised to the minus 12 seconds or 50 millionths of a
millionth of a second).


It is presently a subject of some intense research both
experimental and theoretical.





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 13

                             Re: Fox TV Special

From: Terry Blanton <commengr@bellsouth.net>
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 13:25:51 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 22:52:53 -0500
Subject: Re: Fox TV Special


>From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: RE: UFO UpDate: Re: Fox TV Special
>Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 20:45:23 -0500

>>Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 15:47:59 -0500
>>From: Terry Blanton <commengr@bellsouth.net>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>Subject: Re: Fox TV Special

>>You'll find a great description and lots of pictures at:

>>http://www.hooked.net/~rgeorge/sonofusion.html

>>Sonoluminescence is believed to be related to cold fusion.

>Terry, thanks so much for this reference.

>As I understand sonoluminescence from reading the material on
>this website, sound is not really translated into light.

<snip>

Correct, Greg... at least as far as I understand it. How the
microbubbles create light is not that well understood and they
may be created by methods other than ultrasound. Recalling 'The
Hunt for Red October', rapid acceleration of a submarine can
cause cavitation by the screw and subsequent sonoluminesence.
Indeed, pitting of the metal of the screw results.

I recently read a treatise by one professor where she stated
that she thought that the collapse of the microbubbles occurred
at superluminal speeds and may be tapping the Zero Point Field.
There's no doubt that further study will alter physics as we
know it.

For gigabytes of information on new energy, antigravity, and the
likes, check out the Institute for New Energy web site:

http://www.padrak.com/ine/

"Tiny bubbles . . . " :)

Terry





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 13

                               Re: FSG on TV!

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 13:36:15 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 23:01:15 -0500
Subject: Re: FSG on TV!



>From: Scott Carr <sardonica@erols.com>
>Subject: FSG on TV!
>Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 16:46:27 -0800
>Return-Receipt-To: <sardonica@erols.com>


>FLYING SAUCER GAZETTE - SPECIAL ANNOUNCEMENT

>Dear FSG readers,

>We just got off of the telephone with a representative of CBS
>Productions. CBS had called to discuss a future episode of their
>"L.A. Doctors" television series, in which a man, known
>tentatively as "Charlie" believes that he is a victim of alien
>abduction. (At this time the is no decision, but it is possible
>that "Charlie" may become a recurring character on the series.)>

This is nice free publicity for FSG.

However, why do I suddenly feel slightly sick?   Am I having a
bad case of deja view?  Have we seen Hollywood treatment of UFO
"aberrations" such as abduction before? Can anything good come
of it?






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 14

                          Re: UFO Sighting in Italy

From: Mark Cashman <mcashman@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 14:19:28 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 07:36:57 -0500
Subject: Re: UFO Sighting in Italy

>Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 16:13:27 +0100
>From: Fabrizio Monaco <F.Monaco@stm.it>
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: UFO Sighting in Italy


>I have been reported of a sighting made on Dec 27 at 00:15 A.M.
>the place was Merlengo near Bolzano, about 700Km north-east from
>Rome. The object was "mothership" in shape and it was at about
>2000Mt of altitude, probably it was huge because the witness
>said that it was big, like a lighter.

>The object was moving approximately at 600 Km/h and after 1,5


Fabrizio

Please remember that without a radar detection or at least a
reliable visual triangulation, it is impossible to determine the
size or speed of a reported object. Outside certain distances,
witness impressions are worthless, and are usually based on some
assumption by the witness of the object size.

Therefore, the figures you cite are unlikely to have any basis
in fact.

------
Mark Cashman, creator of The Temporal Doorway at
http://www.temporaldoorway.com
- Original digital art, writing, and UFO research -

UFO cases, analysis, classification systems, and more...
http://www.temporaldoorway.com/ufo.htm
------





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 14

                           Re: Sightings - Czarnik

From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 14:34:33 +0000
Fwd Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 07:39:20 -0500
Subject: Re: Sightings - Czarnik


>From: Michael Christol <mchristo@mindspring.com>
>Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 21:53:45 -0600
>Fwd Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 11:44:36 -0500
>Subject: Re: Sightings - Czarnik

>>From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
>>Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 11:12:50 +0000
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>Subject: Re: Sightings - Czarnik

Previously, I had written:

>>To my knowledge, no UFO whistle blower has ever come out with
>>any "secrets" that they can prove; therefore, the powers that be
>>probably would not want to inadvertantly validate such a
>>person's claims by publicly retaliating about something that is
>>not even supposed to exist. In short, the person poses no threat
>>without proof.

Michael responded:

>Remove the word UFO from this post and you have a totally
>different post.

>Rembember the revelation that the US had used radiation on
>pregnant women as well as other peoples in the 1950? Whistle
>blowers have come forth in the past...

Of course, that's why I differentiated this post by using the
term "UFO whistle blowers". I do not believe that I suggested no
whistle blowers of any kind had ever come forth and been
punished for their actions by private corporations.

The difference is that when someone works for a private
corporation and blows a whistle, they can sue the company if
they lose their benefits, assuming they have proof that they
were singled out for retaliation. Therefore, it might be worth
the risk since there is a recourse for the whistle blower.
Sometimes they win, sometimes not. The corporation bean counters
also look at the risk factor to determine if they want to pursue
or settle or just stand back and see what happens.

On the other hand, people working for the government are in a
totally different situation since it's very difficult to
successfully sue the US government for anything, even when you
HAVE proof of wrong doing. Therefore, intimidation tactics and
physical threats are more likely to be used since there's
virtually nothing the victim can do about it. This person is
facing a giant with endless physical, legal and monetary
resources.

Relating to the above info you mentioned, is there any record of
these woman's families suing the US government and successfully
getting a judgement? I believe the info was, as you put it, a
revelation since it had been covered up for decades by the
government. I doubt if things have changed much, other than the
government is much better at covering
its tracks.

>However, in regards to UFOs, like you Roger, I don't know of
>any, if we leave out such names as:  William (Bill) English,
>William (Bill) Cooper, Clifford Stone, Robert Dean, Jess
>Marcelle, Col. Phil Corso, Dr. Michael Wolf, Bob Lazar and
>others.

>Of course, these are just names and they may or may not have
>actually had proof of what they speak...especially the first
>two...<sorry guys.>

As you point out, these are just names. If there was any
definitive proof that would turn the UFO world on its ear, we'd
be talking about that in this post instead of the current topic.

Finally, I had offered:

>>On the other hand, if someone DID have proof that would be
>>damaging to the powers that be, then it's quite likely that the
>>general public would never be allowed to even hear about that
>>person's existence. In such a case, the whistle blower in
>>question would have much bigger problems that "loss of pension",
>>if you get my drift.

>>Does this answer your question?
>>I really hope not...

Michael's response:

>I would say that you are correct in your assumption here Roger.
><G>

Which assumption, Mike?

Later,

Roger Evans





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 14

                                 BUFORAwatch

From: Mike Wootten <ej77@dial.pipex.com>
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 20:53:44 GMT
Fwd Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 07:50:53 -0500
Subject: BUFORAwatch


BUFORAwatch has just received the following from a BUFORA
insider. Our deep-throat informant states that this was posted
onto the Internet as one of our bulletins. This did not
originate from us but it's interesting enough to be one.

Happy reading!

BUFORAWATCH

It has come to our attention that controversial UFO researcher
Malcolm Robinson has recently become a BUFORA council member.

Since moving to London in May 1998, Robinson has been quitely
active on the fringes of the British UFO Research Association,
providing

BUFORA with a number of lecture presentations. However, he was
effectively stopped from taking a more active role in the
association due to his stance on BUFORA's hypnosis moratorium.
Robinson (although officially associated

with BUFORA) opposes the moratorium, circumventing it in the
past by "officially" conducting hypnotic-regression work under
the aegis of the Scottish paranormal group S.P.I (Strange
Phenomena Investigations); a grou p which he established in the
1980's!

This has caused certain discontent among some of BUFORA
investigators. As a result of this, BUFORA's Director Of
Investigations (Gloria Dixon) made changes to the group's Code
Of Practice, in an attempt to close the loophole which Robinson
was exploting.  Shortly afterwards, Robinson officially resigned
from BUFORA and joined the London UFO Studies group, a body
which endorses the use of hypnosis in supposed cases of "alien
abduction". He later wrote an article on this matter, where he
claimed Kevin McClure was damaging the image of the association
by his "attacks" on Robinson and BUFORA council, and that
McClure had effectively hounded him out of BUFORA!


However, it was strongly rumoured that some members of council
were still keen to have Robinson involved in BUFORA, hoping that
"they could find so me way" around this moratorium problem, so
that Robinson could join the BUFO RA council.


Things went quite for a while..... until, in late December 1998,
it was announced internally within the BUFORA Council that
Robinson had accepted an offer made to him by Steve Gamble to
run BUFORA's lecture programme. A s this position
"traditionally" came with a council-place, this effectivell y
got Robinson onto council, in a manner some felt would not
create  a conflict with the moritorium issue.

This decision was subject to a vote, but it seems a forgone
conclusion th at Robinson will end up on council, and may be on
council as you read this!

We don't know the answer, as council has shrouded this matter in
a deep layer of secrecy. It is claimed that members of council
were told not to disclose this proposal to anyone outside of
council; a fact that has seemingly been confirmed by this
writer!  Furthermore, it is said that so me members of council
expect criticism of this decision, which has reportedl y been
written off as a case of "oh well....so what!"

Again, it seems that BUFORA members (including many of it's
activists) ha ve been deliberately kept in the dark over an
important issue effecting thei r association Why?

It also shows a notable degree of arrogance by the BUFORA
council. It is rumoured that two members of council wrote long
e-mails spelling out the reasons why Robinson should not be on
council, but these objections were ignored by other council
members. Why??

It is sad to see how little council seemingly cares about it's
own hypnos is Moratorium. It seems that Investigators and normal
members are barred fro m using hypnotic regression, but not
members of council! Why???

And how come Robinson is rated higher than someone like Andy
Roberts on the BUFORA council scale? Andy is a critic of the
BUFORA machine, but Robinson has effectively broken it's own
rules, and did so repeatedly, with premeditated intent. But
Robinson gets on council, regardless. Why????

The ease in which such a controversial character as Robinson has
quietly slid onto the BUFORA council should be contrasted with
the problems Andy Roberts experienced in merely keeping his
BUFORA membership! It can also be contrasted with the many
objections BUFORA council had to Robert Moore's request for Andy
Roberts to help with the BUFORA BULLETIN!  This resulted in
Robert Digby (more on him later!) proposing changes to the
running of the BULLETIN, which effectively means council now has
full control over t he running of the magazine, although Robert
Moore may ask people to write articles, etc on a regular basis
(gee, thanks Mr. Digby..!).

Resignations???????:

As a result of this decision, it is known that a number of
resignations have taken place, or will do so in the near future.
It is said that the editor of the BUFORA BULLETIN - Robert Moore
- has resigned. We contacted Robert to confirm this, but he
would say no more than he is stepping down as editor in
February-March 1999, in order to "concentrate on other
projects". (Come on, Robert, tell us the real reason! Don't be
shy!!)

Other people said to be on the verge of resigning from BUFORA
(to our knowledge) include Andy Roberts, David Clarke, Jenny
Randles, Tony Eccles and Kevin McClure.

There are currently two concerns entertained by those aware of
this decision. The first is that the BUFORA lecture programme
will become bias ed and slanted towards Robinson's extreme views
of UFOs. The second is of th e future; where will this end - as
Robinson as BUFORA Director of Investigations!!!


This decision by BUFORA council also seemingly puts a large
shadow of doo m over the hypnosis moratorium. It also seems to
indicate that the goals of BUFORA the mass-membership society
can override and superceed the ideals of BUFORA the objective
UFO study group! If this is true, BUFORA will be looked upon as
an effectively inert player in the field of serious ufolog y.
And it will only have itself to blame if this state of affairs
come to pass.

"Ping..... Bong.....!"

Philip Mantle on the rebound?

I am sure you will have noted Robert Moore's circular e-mail re
QUEST magazine sent out in the late summer of 1998. This asked
for material for a BUFORA UFO column in this magazine. Despite
this, nothing materialised. I t is rumoured that Digby (infamous
for his "I'll be getting rid of Jenny Randles soon!" remark made
at a northern UFO conference in the early 1990's) was
less-than-happy with Moore's openness towards this assignment ,
where he fully addressed the concerns of some towards QUEST and
any monie s forthcoming from this assignment to him.

So, it was with some surprise that we heard Philip Mantle had
been appointed. If this is not a case of "jobs for the boys" I
don't know what is! Given the covert croneyism displayed by the
content of this magazine (where many pieces are written by
members of BUFORA's so-called "inner" council; ie Spencer, Beer,
Gamble, etc) does this suggest that Mantle is now worming his
way back up the BUFORA ladder?

Again, as with Robinson, BUFORA's "inner council" has again
shown it's fondness for scientifically-ignorant individuals with
extreme ufological views. We all know how Mantle is deemed a
"cash cow" by some within thhe association, so his return seems
effectively preordained.

It's a pity BUFORA's inner circle don't show more support for
it's more objective members, where it's future as an objective
UFO body surely lies. But does the BUFORA "Inner council"
actually want such a future for the association? Does it
actually want the association to merely be a "gee-wow" group,
catering for sensationism and scientifically dubious (but
popular) notions???

BUFORA seems intent on selling it's soul to the Devil, wholesale!

ATB
Mike





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 14

             Re: Official US Air Force 'Roswell Incident' Report

From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 14:26:34 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 08:08:24 -0500
Subject: Re: Official US Air Force 'Roswell Incident' Report


>From: ames Bond Johnson <JBONJO@aol.com>
>Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 02:46:10 EST
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Official US Air Force 'Roswell Incident' Report

James-

Would it be too much to ask that you and the rest of the RPIT
team put together your results, along with the supporting
evidence (such as enhanced images) into a form that we all can
view and understand?  There are several interpretations of the
"memo", and to many the alleged "symbols" appear to be
imperfections in the surface of the glue covered sticks.

Your findings, if true, are significant.  But so far we've all
heard little more than rhetoric.

Steve





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 14

             Re: Official US Air Force 'Roswell Incident' Report

From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 16:44:16 +0000
Fwd Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 08:12:29 -0500
Subject: Re: Official US Air Force 'Roswell Incident' Report


>From: ames Bond Johnson <JBONJO@aol.com>
>Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 02:46:10 EST
>Fwd Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 15:21:22 -0500
>Subject: Official US Air Force 'Roswell Incident' Report

>Excerpts from the Official US Air Force
>"Roswell Incident" Investigative Report:
>"CASE CLOSED!"  (1994-1995)

Previously, this report was presented fro the USAF:

>"What is uniquely lacking in the entire exploration and
>exploitation of the "Roswell Incident" is official positive
>documentary or physical evidence of any kind that supports the
>claims of those who allege that something unusual happened."

<large snip, no censure intended>

>RICHARD L. WEAVER, COL,
>USAF DIRECTOR, SECURITY AND SPECIAL PROGRAM OVERSIGHT."

Mr. Johnson offered the following:

>(Only with the discovery in 1998 by the international RPIT
>(Roswell Photo Interpretation Team) of numerous strange curved,
>geometric shaped glyphs and symbols emblazoned upon the Roswell
>crash debris as photographed in the 8th Air Force Headquarters
>office of Brig. General Roger Ramey on July 8, 1947, is there
>finally both such documentary and physical evidence. A printed
>message held by General Ramey refers to "VICTIMS OF THE CRASH"
>and states that they were being brought to Fort Worth; the
>message appears to be time stamped just a few minutes prior to
>the taking of the photos. It is speculated that General Ramey
>was learning of the recovery of alien bodies in a second crash
>location even as he was being photographed.)

Mr. Johnson,

"Victims of the Crash"?

Don't you think this is a little premature; perhaps even
fanciful?

I have great respect for the efforts of the RPIT. But I've
looked and squinted and stared at the photo in question until my
eyes bled and I do not see the phrase you noted. I do see bits
and pieces. Perhaps the words "victim" and "crash" might be
recognizable; maybe not. It's very much open to interpretation.

You present it as fact. Do you really feel comfortable doing
this?

Perhaps I've missed out on a more recent "refinement" of the
photo's resolution. Could you post the photo and clearly circle
the message you feel is visible on the Ramey note? Maybe I'm
looking in the wrong place. Thanks.

Roger Evans





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 14

                New York UFO/Abduction Conference - April '99

From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net>
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 17:07:33 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 08:16:22 -0500
Subject: New York UFO/Abduction Conference - April '99


The Intruders Foundation Presents

THE 1999 UFO ABDUCTION CONFERENCE

-  WHAT WE KNOW AND HOW WE KNOW IT -

On Saturday, April 10, 1999, New York City will be the site of a
day-long national conference on the UFO abduction phenomenon.
Four of America's most respected UFO researchers - Budd Hopkins,
Stanton Friedman, David Jacobs and Jerome Clark - welcome the
public to a cutting-edge presentation of current evidence for
the reality and possible future of alien abductions. The
conference will be held at the O. Henry Learning Center, at 333
West 17th Street in Manhattan, and will start at 10 AM.
Admission to all events is $60, purchased in advance, or $80 at
the door. For tickets and further information phone the
Intruders Foundation, 212 645-5278.

The conference is planned as both a crash course in the ongoing
UFO abduction phenomenon - what we know and how we know it - and
an illustrated presentation of the latest research findings.

At 10:00 a.m., proceedings begin with a lecture by nuclear
physicist and internationally known investigator Stanton
Friedman. Mr. Friedman, author of Crash at Corona and Top
Secret/Majic, will present a range of scientific evidence in
support of the theoretical presence of extraterrestrial life and
the ability for technologically advanced societies to travel
between solar systems.

The second lecture will be given by Jerome Clark, veteran
researcher and author of the masterful, virtually indispensable
two-volume UFO Encyclopedia as well as other numerous important
books and articles.  Mr. Clark will present a concise history of
the abduction phenomenon, with special attention to significant
but little known aspects of such seminal cases as those of Betty
and Barney Hill, Charles Hickson and Calvin Parker, and Travis
Walton.

The afternoon session begins with a lecture by pioneer abduction
researcher Budd Hopkins, author of Missing Time, Intruders -
source of the CBS miniseries - and Witnessed - The True Story of
the Brooklyn Bridge UFO Abductions.  Mr. Hopkins will present
his latest case findings, with special emphasis on witnessed UFO
abductions and the issue of alleged alien implants.  His talk,
like the others, will be illustrated by slides and videotapes.

Dr. David Jacobs, distinguished Temple University historian and
author of two trailblazing books on the abduction phenomenon -
Secret Life and The Threat - will present the fourth lecture.
Dr. Jacobs will discuss evidence he and other researchers have
amassed which indicates a highly specific and disturbing Alien
agenda and an answer to the central question: why are they here?

In a fifth part of the conference, documentary filmmaker Carol
Rainey will draw on her own media experience in an exploration
of how the mainstream media treats the subject of UFO
abductions.  In a lecture packed with video clips, Rainey will
discuss why the media often either ignores or misrepresents the
phenomenon.  She includes a behind-the-scenes look at the making
of a controversial PBS "NOVA" program, "Kidnapped by UFOs?,"
which featured Budd Hopkins, John Velez and John Mack.

The final, evening session will be an extended panel discussion
moderated by the composer, journalist and UFO researcher Greg
Sandow. Appearing along with Mr. Sandow will be the five
speakers - David Jacobs, Budd Hopkins, Jerome Clark, Stanton
Friedman and Carol Rainey - and two well known UFO abduction
experiencers, Linda Cortile and IF webmaster John Velez.  Full
audience participation will be encouraged in this final segment
of what we believe will be a historic event.

=================================================================
IF
PO Box 30233
NY, NY, 10011

Tel: (212) 645-5278

e-mail: jvif@spacelab.net

On the web:
www.if-aic.com/ifconference (Will be online by this week-end)
________________________________________________
  jvif@spacelab.net
INTRUDERS FOUNDATION/ABDUCTION INFORMATION CENTER
 http://www.if-aic.com
"Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind."
________________________________________________





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 14

                   NBC UFO Special Feb 17 Has Own Website

From: Stig Agermose <Stig_Agermose@online.pol.dk>
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 23:02:32 GMT
Fwd Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 08:30:09 -0500
Subject: NBC UFO Special Feb 17 Has Own Website


On 13 Jan 1999 05:12:11 GMT, in alt.ufo.reports mntlapse@aol.com
(MNTLapse) wrote:

>Author Whitley Strieber is producing a show based on his
>'Communion' book. It will explore alien abductions! There will
>also be an abductee on the show, an alien implant being
>removed, and some of the greatest UFO footage in the world.

>It'll air at 8pm on NBC on Wednesday February 17th, 1999.
>It's 2 hours and it's gonna show that there are aliens among
>us!

http://www.confirmation.net





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 14

                        Re: Kenneth Arnold - Question

From: Donald Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 20:03:24 -0300
Fwd Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 08:42:09 -0500
Subject: Re: Kenneth Arnold - Question


>From: Kari Valimaa <suomen.ufotutkijat@kolumbus.fi>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Kenneth Arnold - Question
>Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 04:28:09 +0200

>>From: Scott Carr <sardonica@erols.com>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>Subject: Kenneth Arnold - Question
>>Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 14:55:56 -0800

>>Sorry to bother the list with another research question, but I
>>am closing in on the finish line of a writing project, and am at
>>the point of fine-tuning and checking minor details.

>>Does anyone know what make of airplane Kenneth Arnold was flying
>>during his famous sighting of June 24, 1947? I've looked in
>>Jerome Clark's 'The UFO Book' and while there is a wealth of
>>information about the event, this is one detail I could not
>>locate.

>Kenneth Arnold's airplane was single-engined Callier. According
>to Jenny Randles ('The Complete Book of UFOs', Revised edition,
>1997), it was specially designed for mountain work - capable of
>landing in rough fields and pastures.

That should read Callair. The aircraft was a taildrager with
heavy undercarriage for rough field landings. It was however a
low wing aircraft with struts so not full cantilevered spars.
Most successful roughfield aircraft were and are high winged.
Since it had short wings the engine must have been of greater
horsepower than usual for higher-than-normal altitude work in
and around the mountains.

Don Ledger

>Kari Valimaa
>kariv@usa.net





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 14

                     Re: Art Bell - Friday, January 8/9

From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net>
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 18:33:51 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 08:44:36 -0500
Subject: Re: Art Bell - Friday, January 8/9


>From: Scott Ribordy <sdr@ns.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: Art Bell - Friday, January 8/9
>Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 04:15:29 GMT

>Do you feel that you or Mr. Hopkins should "pay a price" for
>propagating the alien abduction meme and all the associated harm
>that it causes?

What harm would that be? Please give details, with supporting
evidence.

("Meme" -- not found in the Merriam-Webster Third International
Dictionary, the standard unabridged dictionary in the United
States, or even in the unabridged Oxford English Dictionary,
first edition, which lists every word ever known to be used in
the language. I did find it, though, in the Shorter Oxford
Dictionary, based on the OED but more up to date. "Meme" --
biological term. An element of a culture or system of behavior
that may be consider to be passed from one individual to another
by non-genetic means, especially imitation." Nice swipe, Mr. R.
Now prove it.)

Greg Sandow






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 14

                        Re: Kenneth Arnold - Question

From: Gary Alevy <galevy@pipeline.com>
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 20:31:26 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 08:46:23 -0500
Subject: Re: Kenneth Arnold - Question


>From: Kari Valimaa <suomen.ufotutkijat@kolumbus.fi>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Kenneth Arnold - Question
>Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 04:28:09 +0200

>>From: Scott Carr <sardonica@erols.com>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>Subject: Kenneth Arnold - Question
>>Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 14:55:56 -0800

>>Does anyone know what make of airplane Kenneth Arnold was flying
>>during his famous sighting of June 24, 1947? I've looked in
>>Jerome Clark's 'The UFO Book' and while there is a wealth of
>>information about the event, this is one detail I could not
>>locate.

>Kenneth Arnold's airplane was single-engined Callier. According
>to Jenny Randles ('The Complete Book of UFOs', Revised edition,
>1997), it was specially designed for mountain work - capable of
>landing in rough fields and pastures.


Kari,

I understand you are trying to be helpful however; what's the
point in posting the name misspelled and not giving a reference
specifically with pagination that can be verified?

Gary






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 14

             Re: Official US Air Force 'Roswell Incident' Report

From: Scott Hale <shale@columbus.rr.com>
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 21:18:46 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 09:36:06 -0500
Subject: Re: Official US Air Force 'Roswell Incident' Report


>From: ames Bond Johnson <JBONJO@aol.com>
>Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 02:46:10 EST
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Official US Air Force 'Roswell Incident' Report

>Excerpts from the Official US Air Force
>"Roswell Incident" Investigative Report:
>"CASE CLOSED!"  (1994-1995)

<snip>

>"This report was generated as an official response to the GAO,
>and to document the considerable effort expended by the Air
>Force on their behalf it is anticipated that that they will
>request a copy of this report to help formulate the formal
>report of their efforts. It is recommended that this document
>serve as the final Air Force report related to the Roswell
>matter, for the GAO, or any other inquiries.

>RICHARD L. WEAVER, COL,
>USAF DIRECTOR, SECURITY AND SPECIAL PROGRAM OVERSIGHT."


All,

I am in the process of scanning and converting the entire Case
Closed report to html. This is quite tedious work thus far, so
bear with me while I work out the kinks in the report and work
on posting it.

I am also planning on scanning parts of the first report so that
anybody in the world can access them, but the report is 1,000+
pages long so I doubt I'll get the whole thing scanned. I have
plenty of other ideas, but if anybody has any audio, video, or
textual data they would like to see on the web that isn't
copyrighted, drop me a line.

Take Care,
Scott Hale







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 14

                   Re: UFO Cults - A research question...

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 00:55:25 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 09:47:42 -0500
Subject: Re: UFO Cults - A research question...


>From: John Ratcliff <jratcliff@att.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: UFO Cults - A research question...
>Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 21:35:15 +0000


>>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
>>>Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 22:52:31 -0500Fwd Date: Tue, 12
>>Jan 1999 10:35:46 -0500
>>Subject: Re: UFO Cults - A research question...

>>Bruce wrote:

>>It would seem to me that anyone who takes seriously the idea
>>(fact) of UFO reality >also has to seriously consider the
>>possibility (probability) that >Other Intelligences (OI),
>>whether ETs or time travelers or whatever,

>>1) created humans
>>2) have watched human development
>>3) have affected human history a number of times by
>>  doing things outside the norm of human ability
>>4) have given rise to what we call "religious history"

>Excellent post Bruce and a fine theory. My view is since we
>know that human beings have strange experiences, whether it's
>due to the influence of space aliens, temporal lobe misfiring,
>psychoactive consumption, fasting, or the paranormal, it is
>impossible to come to any firm conclusions about some base
>reality surrounding the mythologies of early man.

<snip>

>Afterall, if you choose to postulate a theory that some of these
>old gods were in fact objectivly 'real', then we must examine,
>critically, their actions. And their actions as recorded in our
>myths, if taken literally, are a record of violent genocide
>against humanity. (Put your Bible aside and simply see the
>recent animated childrens film 'Prince of Persia' for just a few
>examples of how brutal these OI's can be.)>

>These don't sound like spiritually advanced folks I want to
>welcome with open arms (see Bramley's 'The Gods of Eden'). Call
>me xenophobic, or just call me cautious, but when Jehovah starts
>flitting about in his UFO and issuing a fresh set of edicts, I'm
>going to be mighty pleased if the USAF has some top secret
>aircraft ready to take him on.


"WE ARE THE ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE"
.............................(Maccabee, 1996)


You are correct. The actions of the "old Gods" do not seem
"Godlike" ....especially to modern "bleeding heart liberal
types." HOWEVER!!! That really is a result of a change in the
concept of what God should be like that result from analysis of
the New Testament.

It seems to me that "good" and "evil" were relative terms in
early days (as they are now) where "good" meant "that which
worked according to the Creator's (or Creators') desires" and
"evil" was that which didn't "work." Obviously The Creator(s)
was trying for something, some type of humans, and many human
activities p--- ed him off so he decided to get rid of the whole
bunch (the Flood..... if it actually occurred) and start with a
"pure" genetic line (Noah). Of course, if all of humanity is
NOT descended from Noah (and I think it isn't all descended from
Noah...or an equivalent in' some other religion), that still
does not change the "post-deluvian" history as recorded in
ancient works. In the Old Testament we find numerous examples
of man's cruelty or "inhumanity" toward man (and women). We
also find that whatever God says is good. So, for example, its
OK to march into the "Promised Land" and take over. SO what if a
few thousand humans get killed as a result. There are
plenty more.

My understanding of a key theme running through the Old
Testament is that the Creator(s) didn't understand the humans.
Why did humans do the things they do, including "bad" things
they have been warned not to do. The New Testament then
describes the result of the effort of the Creator(s) to learn
"first hand" what makes humans tick and thus to become
"reconciled" to the nature of humanity.

This interpretation may make no sense if the Creator(s) is(are)
supra-universal beings as in the old concept of God. It does
make some sense if the Creator(s) are "merely" highly advanced
beings who whose capabilituies appear as "magic" (miracles) who
created some "artificial intelligence" which they discover they
cannot understand.

To better understand this argument, consider the "human
analogue": We could create artificial intelligence AI using
available computer methods, etc. If we made it self-reproducing
then we could follow this AI through a number of generations and
try to figure out why it was doing whatever it was doing. Point:
it could well do things we don't understand!

Of course, this raises a number of interesting questions such
as, could this AI "reverse-engineer" itself and thus understand
itself? Would it have sufficient intelligence to understand
itself? Or is intelligence in general "Godelified", that is
stopped by the AI analogue of Godel's theorem (that you can't
"prove" a mathematical system from within the system)? Is it
possible that humans are not sufficiently intelligent to
understand humans?

Or is it possible that we are approaching the capability of
doing just that (the ultimate reverse-engineering of life)...
and perhaps "somebody up there" is worried about the abilities
we might be able to give ourselves?

(sleep on that one, if you can!)






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 14

                           Re: Sightings - Czarnik

From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 23:29:42 +0000
Fwd Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 09:44:00 -0500
Subject: Re: Sightings - Czarnik


>From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
>Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 10:16:34 -0500
>Fwd Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 22:17:16 -0500
>Subject: Re: Sightings - Czarnik

Previously, Steven had offered:

>Any breach involving national security at
>that level would most likely be handled behind closed doors, and
>those involved would be warned to not say anything about it in
>public.

>All this being said, it also provides someone who is trying to
>gain attention (for whatever reason) a convenient excuse as to
>why they "can't devulge details", or talk about it with those
>who might ask too many questions.  Many people have argued that
>one way to get the "truth" out would be to change the
>regulations and grant immunity to those who speak out about the
>military's involvment with UFOs.  However, I have to wonder if
>this will bring forth more valuable information, or perhaps a
>different set of reasons as to why they can't talk.

Agreed.

I don't make light of security oaths, however, I'm not sure
anything would really change in the future if the rules
governing disclosure are modified. Allowing people to talk about
what they've seen is one thing; allowing them to take away proof
to show to the world is something else.

As Serge wisely pointed out during the SETI debate some time
back, all the government has to do is release thousands of
classified documents that ALREADY exist relating to UFOs and the
like. Even without changing regulations regarding security
oaths, the release of these old documents would go a long way
toward satisfying the UFO community. If these old documents
won't be declassified, then there's no reason to believe that
future documentation would be made available to any "UFO
whistle-blower" that wants to kiss and tell about the
government's involvement with UFOs.

In my opinion, lack of proof will still be the bug-a-boo, no
matter how much talking is done.

Later,

Roger Evans






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 14

                             Re: Fox TV Special

From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net>
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 01:52:47 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 09:51:12 -0500
Subject: Re: Fox TV Special


>Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 15:51:09 +0100
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: David Crundall <dec@psychology.nottingham.ac.uk>
>Subject: Re: Fox TV Special

>My apologies if this point has already occurred in this thread,
>but there is a natural phenomenon where sound evokes colours in
>the human system. This tendency is called synesthesia. It was
>most famously investigated by the Russian neuropsychologist
>Luria (1968) who studied a subject who reported a crossover of
>sensory modalities. Most commonly this subject would report
>patches of colour for certain sounds, though all five senses
>have been reportedly mixed in some synesthesics. Similarly to
>Bruce, I could not tell you whether there is a consistent
>relationship across subjects between colour and frequency,
>though I doubt it.

Yes, David, synesthesia has been mentioned. As I understand the
term, it refers not just to sound evoking colors, but any sense
evoking another one -- sounds evoking textures, light evoking
smells, touches evoking light, tastes evoking sounds.

I've never heard that there were any consistent synesthetic
relationships. A woman touches me, and I sense the taste of
rich, deep plums....she touches someone else, and for them it's
prunes.

Greg Sandow





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 14

                             Re: Fox TV Special

From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net>
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 01:45:47 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 09:57:08 -0500
Subject: Re: Fox TV Special


>Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 21:37:13 -0600
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Michael Christol <mchristo@mindspring.com>
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Fox TV Special

>Greg...This was a total waste of post....

>You apparently, based on what I just read, have never even heard
>the sounds you commented on....

Michael, if I'd really commented on the sounds without hearing
them, you'd have every right to be upset.

But I didn't comment on the sounds. I commented on the analysis
of the sounds, which is a very different thing. The sounds, for
all I know, might be the sounds of a UFO. They might be
something else. But the analysis you quoted is, in my opinion,
unclear, credulous, and unprofessional.

I also want to repeat what I said at the end of my post -- I'm
not sure it's possible to analyze a sound and conclude that it
couldn't have been created by any known means. You can analyze
chemical compounds or metallic alloys, and say whether or not
they're familiar. That's because there are long lists of known
compounds and alloys.

But there's no such list of possible sounds, as there is of
known chemical compounds or metallic alloys. I don't think
anyone has ever listed all the properties of known sounds, and I
don't see how anyone could.

I may be wrong about this, of course, since my field is music,
not audio engineering. But I do know that it's readily possible
create new sounds with a variety of hardware and software, or
simply by taking a recording of a known sound and altering it.
Anyone curious about this should take a look at some of the
audio editing software that's around these days. You can
actually take a computer "pencil" and draw details of a
soundwave, creating something that never existed in nature.
Professionals, designing the latest synthesizers, create sounds
directly from mathematical models. I'm not going to say it's
easy to create a sound nobody has ever heard before, but it's
not terribly difficult, either. A junior high school kid with
some standard software could do it.

>I know that you have virtually no respect for the material in
>question...It is quite evident by the message you posted. Please
>don't think that I am attacking you... I am not. I just want you
>to listen to the information, then we will have something to
>comment on.

I have to admit I have little respect for the analysis you
quoted, Michael, for all the reasons I stated. My opinion of
Meier has nothing to do with that. I hope I'm an objective
student of ufology, but I can't throw away all my professional
knowledge of sound and music just to give the Meier case (or any
other one) a chance.

>I know there are those which have been classified as: "Noisey
>Negativists," on this list. They despise the Meier case and have
>openly attacked it from the beginning. These attacks can relate
>directly back to William E. (Bill) Moore and Kal Korff... Please
>don't be sucked into a conclusion until you have taken the time
>to actually check out the available information which has been
>compiled on the case.

Nattering nabobs of negativism? Is that what Spiro Agnew called
us? <laughing>Seriously, Michael, I've never studied the Meier
case. I was only reacting to the analysis you yourself quoted,
because -- taken purely on its own terms -- it didn't make much
sense. >>Thanks for you patience with me Greg...

We're all students of life, Michael...

Greg Sandow






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 14

                             Re: Fox TV Special

From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net>
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 01:55:00 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 09:49:57 -0500
Subject: Re: Fox TV Special


>Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 13:36:21 -0500
>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
>Subject: UFO UpDate: Re: Fox TV Special
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>

>OK, Greg, here's your chance for a Nobel Prize: explain
>sonoluminescence. Nobody knows how it works. In water a
>converging sound wave sets up a pressure field tat acts on a
>tiny bubble in the water in such a way as to create a pulse of
>light. When this was first discovered years ago people were
>amazed. They were more amazed as the time duration of the light
>pulse was measured. I think it was only abou 10 years ago that
>experimental equipment got good enough (fast enough) to measure
>these bursts which are on the order of 50 picoseconds ( 50 times
>ten raised to the minus 12 seconds or 50 millionths of a
>millionth of a second).

>It is presently a subject of some intense research both
>experimental and theoretical.

C'mon, Bruce. We know it's alien technology. I'll just channel
some aliens, find out how it works, and claim my Nobel.

Greg Sandow





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 14

                        Re: Watch For My Coming Hoax!

From: Michel M. Deschamps <739411@ican.net>
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 02:03:44 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 10:00:21 -0500
Subject: Re: Watch For My Coming Hoax!



>Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 11:06:56 -0500
>From: Terry Blanton <commengr@bellsouth.net>
>To: updates@globalserve.com
>Subject: [Fwd:] Watch For My Coming Hoax!

>We've been warned!

>>From alt.alien.visitors:

>    <><><><><><><><><><>

>From: Michael Edelman <mje@mich.com>
>Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
>Subject: Watch for my coming hoax!
>Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 12:39:37 -0500
>Organization: Wayne State University

>Fellow aliens, spooks, paranoids (you know who you
>are) and schitzophrenics:

>I am just about ready to launch my massive saucer
>hoax on the nation, and I'm giving you advance
>warning. I do so so (1) you'll know it's a hoax
>and (2) to prove that it can work even if I
>disclose it's a hoax in advance.

>Watch for it!


Well, well...

Hoaxing may be a lot of fun for those of you who have never
seen anything, and have nothing better to do with your free
time.  But I "believe" that one day, the joke will be on you.
You'll see something. And when you'll report it (IF you
report it), no one will "believe" you.

Michel M. Deschamps
A concerned UFO eyewitness
----------






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 14

                         Military Retirees & Secrecy

From: Judith Dale <judithdale@earthlink.net>
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 23:32:40 -0800
Fwd Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 10:03:35 -0500
Subject: Military Retirees & Secrecy


I have been following the recent discussion regarding the
consequences that might occur if a retired military person was
to break their secrecy agreement.

The experience that I have is with my partner's dad, who is a
retired Lt. Colonel, USAF intelligence. In response to questions
about UFO's and the involvement of the Air Force, he will only
say that alot has gone on and to talk about it would put him,
and us, in terrible danger. This doesn't sound like a fear of
loosing his pension, to me. This is a man who started in the
Army and became Air Force in 1947. The Air Force subsequently
paid for him to get a graduate degree in communications at Yale.

My partner describes a childhood of many moves to and from
numerous Air Force bases, and long absences of dad on secret
assignments, when contact could only be made through his CO.
Then there was the discovery of one of dad's notebooks during a
childhood search of his desk. This notebook contained drawings
that at the time, my partner thought were cartoon people, but
now recognizes them as "greys", as well as what seemed to be a
symbol type writing. This occurred in 1956.

We have all found his refusal to tell us anything to be
incredibly frustrating. He is now in his 80's, but insists that
what he knows will go to the grave with him. He is adamant that
it is not safe for him to speak. Fear of lost pension? I don't
think so. This is also a man who was rah, rah military, and now
vehemently hates the military. Curious.

I suspect that those who have spoken, don't have the "real
skinny". Those that do, will probably never reveal what they
know.

In the hope of the revelation of the true story,

Judith






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 14

                           Re: Sightings - Czarnik

From: Michael Christol <mchristo@mindspring.com>
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 05:27:02 -0600
Fwd Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 10:11:28 -0500
Subject: Re: Sightings - Czarnik


>From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
>To: "UFO UpDates - Toronto" <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Sightings - Czarnik
>Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 08:06:07 -0400

>Perhaps this is because neither Corso, nor Milton William
>Cooper, nor Robert Dean have provided any classified
>documentation to support their claims? The same goes for Lazar,
>Kaufmann, Kirkwood, Wolf. Rumors are not punishable.

>Stan Friedman

That could be Stan...however, harrassment is not only allowed,
it is encouraged. <g>

REgards, Mike






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 14

                      Re: Secret USAF 'SETI' Projects?

From: Bob Shell <bob@bobshell.com>
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 07:57:02 +0000
Fwd Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 10:31:34 -0500
Subject: Re: Secret USAF 'SETI' Projects?


----------
>From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>To: "UFO UpDates Subscribers":;
>Subject: UFO UpDate: Re: Secret USAF 'SETI' Projects?
>Date: Thu, Jan 14, 1999, 12:18 AM
>

>From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Secret USAF 'SETI' Projects?
>Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 08:00:16 -0400
>
>
>
>If one checks a topographic map one finds that the VLA is a good
>ways West of Socorro in a relatively unique area The Plains of
>San Augustine or San Agustin. It is flatter than a pacncake at
>an altitude over 6500 feet, is surrounded by mountains up to
>10,000 feet and was a lake bed until about 5000 years ago.
>
>It is a very sparsely inhabited area.
>
>The land was cheap, flat, and, of great importance, out of reach
>of most radio noise background. Even though I am convinced that
>indeed an alien sapcecraft crashed in the area in July 1947, the
>people I talked to felt it was cheap land in an ideal location
>for listening. There is a Y shaped track with each leg about 12
>miles long.. Catron County was the least populated of all NM
>counties.

>The Farr Ranch is 120,000 acres.The Plains is about 60miles by
>20 miles with the Continental Divide alongs its Western Edge and
>Magdalena at its NE corner. We saw herds of antelope while
>flying over it in a helicopter.

Most people are familiar with the VLA from the movie Contact.

If any of you are ever in the area, the VLA is worth a visit.
The giant dishes are very impressive, and if you happen to be
there at a time when they are moving them, even more impressive.

There is a nice little museum in the control building with the
complete history of the place and some neat photos from optical
observatories.

I seriously doubt that those dishes can transmit.  The place is
open to the public, and there is no security to speak of, so if
there was transmitting equipment it would be very hard to hide.

However, that canyon that Jodie Foster goes and sits by in the
movie just does not exist.  The whole place is flat as a
pancake.

There are pronghorn herds everywhere, as Stan mentions, and I
took a lot of photos of them with telephoto lenses while I was
driving around on the plains.

Bob







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 14

                        Re: Kenneth Arnold - Question

From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 09:31:58 +0000
Fwd Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 10:34:27 -0500
Subject: Re: Kenneth Arnold - Question


>From: Gary Alevy <galevy@pipeline.com>
>Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 20:31:26 -0500
>Fwd Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 08:46:23 -0500
>Subject: Re: Kenneth Arnold - Question

Previously, Kari offered:

>>Kenneth Arnold's airplane was single-engined Callier. According
>>to Jenny Randles ('The Complete Book of UFOs', Revised edition,
>>1997), it was specially designed for mountain work - capable of
>>landing in rough fields and pastures.

Gary Alevy countered:

>I understand you are trying to be helpful however; what's the
>point in posting the name misspelled and not giving a reference
>specifically with pagination that can be verified?

Gary,

One might very well ask the same regarding your posts about
Hynek and Larsen. At least Kari can prove Arnold's plane
existed, even if the name is misspelled. How about a reference
and pagination to support your own info?

Roger Evans






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 14

                                 Re: Firmage

From: Steven W. Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 09:33:00 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 10:38:04 -0500
Subject: Re: Firmage


>From: Stig Agermose <Stig_Agermose@online.pol.dk>
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 01:55:04 +0100
>Subject: Firmage

>[List only]


It's interesting to note that the media is now picking up on the
MJ-12 material, and perhaps they'll go below the surface and
investigate them further.

In a compilation of the MJ-12 material on Firmage's site, which
has been distributed to researchers and others, it is
interesting to note that the two prominent scientists listed
above are extremely poor spellers, and apparently don't proof
their work very well.  Celestial is spelled "celestrial"
throughout the document, and is just one of the obvious mistakes
(spelling and typographical) that were corrected when it was
re-typed in the printed version.  In fact, there are spelling
errors on many of the "official" documents, and they are usually
noted in the re-typed versions.

If the media actually looks into this, they'll discover some of
these errors.  Of course, I'm assuming that they care.

Steve






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 14

                Aliens and Memes (was: Re: Art Bell - Friday,

From: Steven W. Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 09:53:05 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 10:45:05 -0500
Subject: Aliens and Memes (was: Re: Art Bell - Friday,


>From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: Art Bell - Friday, January 8/9
>Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 18:33:51 -0500

>>From: Scott Ribordy <sdr@ns.net>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>Subject: Re: Art Bell - Friday, January 8/9
>>Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 04:15:29 GMT

>>Do you feel that you or Mr. Hopkins should "pay a price" for
>>propagating the alien abduction meme and all the associated harm
>>that it causes?

>What harm would that be? Please give details, with supporting
>evidence.

>("Meme" -- not found in the Merriam-Webster Third International
>Dictionary, the standard unabridged dictionary in the United
>States, or even in the unabridged Oxford English Dictionary,
>first edition, which lists every word ever known to be used in
>the language. I did find it, though, in the Shorter Oxford
>Dictionary, based on the OED but more up to date. "Meme" --
>biological term. An element of a culture or system of behavior
>that may be consider to be passed from one individual to another
>by non-genetic means, especially imitation." Nice swipe, Mr. R.
>Now prove it.)


Greg-

I use the phrase "meme" when describing the alien image that has
become a standard, but it isn't a term that many are familiar
with.  I think you'll find that your definition is somewhat
abridged.

For a listing of sites where you can gather information on
memetics, you can visit:


http://www.yahoo.co.uk/Social_Science/Psychology/Disciplines/Social_Psychol
ogy/Memetics/index.html

>From that page you can venture out to a number of sites that express many
points of view regarding "memes" and their impact.  For a number of short
definitions offered by several researchers you can go to :


http://maxwell.lucifer.com/virus/alt.memetics/what.is.html

or for a more in depth description you can visit:


http://pespmc1.vub.ac.be/MEMIN.html

====================

For what it's worth, I don't think that Bud Hopkins, or any
other researcher, should pay a price for their honest research.
But, IMO, the alien image has become a "meme" in our society and
has become a universal symbol that conveys meaning, just as an
image of the devil and German swastika do.






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 14

             Re: Official US Air Force 'Roswell Incident' Report

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 11:43:57 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 11:43:57 -0500
Subject: Re: Official US Air Force 'Roswell Incident' Report

Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 16:22:35 -0800
To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
From: Neil Morris <neil@adm1.ph.man.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Official US Air Force 'Roswell Incident' Report


>From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
>Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 16:44:16 +0000
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Official US Air Force 'Roswell Incident' Report


>>From: James Bond Johnson <JBONJO@aol.com>
>>Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 02:46:10 EST
>>Fwd Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 15:21:22 -0500
>>Subject: Official US Air Force 'Roswell Incident' Report


>>Excerpts from the Official US Air Force
>>"Roswell Incident" Investigative Report:
>>"CASE CLOSED!"  (1994-1995)

>Previously, this report was presented fro the USAF:

>>"What is uniquely lacking in the entire exploration and
>>exploitation of the "Roswell Incident" is official positive
>>documentary or physical evidence of any kind that supports the
>>claims of those who allege that something unusual happened."

><large snip, no censure intended>

>"Victims of the Crash"?

>Don't you think this is a little premature; perhaps even
>fanciful?

>I have great respect for the efforts of the RPIT. But I've
>looked and squinted and stared at the photo in question until my
>eyes bled and I do not see the phrase you noted. I do see bits
>and pieces. Perhaps the words "victim" and "crash" might be
>recognizable; maybe not. It's very much open to interpretation.

>You present it as fact. Do you really feel comfortable doing
>this?

>Perhaps I've missed out on a more recent "refinement" of the
>photo's resolution. Could you post the photo and clearly circle
>the message you feel is visible on the Ramey note? Maybe I'm
>looking in the wrong place. Thanks.


Dear Rodger and All,

I don't know Errol's policy on attachment but to enlighten those
who don't know what we (RPIT) are dealing with I thought it
might be fitting to show a small piece of the Ramey Message,
infact the phrase at the cent re of the thread in progress.

As the RPIT are all free thinking individuals we do tend to have
our "own take" on the wording, I'm currently going over this
wording again so my "take" will no doubt change to reflect this
revision.

My "current" take of the phrase is "VICTIMS OF THE WRECK"

>From the attachment image you can see the raw data is a little
poor to say the least and IMHO some of the wording may never be
resolved due to damage that the negative sustained, first having
been printed "wet" and in haste and then the scratch damage the
neg has picked up over the years.

Of course some nice helpfull person may think to try and get the
Cc out of the archives under the FOIA?.

Though I guess it went through the shredder with the rest of the
Roswell signals.

Best Regards

Neil.

 letclp1.jpg

-------------------------------------------------------

Neil Morris@Home.
Email:             Neil@adm1.ph.man.ac.uk

-------------------------------------------------------





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 14

                        Re: Kenneth Arnold - Question

From: Kathleen Anderson <KAnder6444@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 10:40:19 EST
Fwd Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 11:38:51 -0500
Subject: Re:  Kenneth Arnold - Question


> Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 20:03:24 -0300
> From: Donald Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
> To: updates@globalserve.net >Subject: Re: Kenneth Arnold - Question
> Subject: Re: Kenneth Arnold - Question

> That should read Callair.

Was curious to wonder why the picture of the plane shows Call
Air on it. Small a -- big A. I do note that some publications
list it as you did Callair. I just thought I'd be a pain in the
A today and ask.

Kathleen A
Seattle






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 14

                          Re: UFO Sighting in Italy

From: Fabrizio Monaco <F.Monaco@stm.it>
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 18:14:56 +0100
Fwd Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 12:29:25 -0500
Subject: Re: UFO Sighting in Italy


>From: Mark Cashman <mcashman@ix.netcom.com>
>Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 14:19:28 -0500
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: UFO Sighting in Italy

>Please remember that without a radar detection or at least a
>reliable visual triangulation, it is impossible to determine the
>size or speed of a reported object. Outside certain distances,
>witness impressions are worthless, and are usually based on some
>assumption by the witness of the object size.

>Therefore, the figures you cite are unlikely to have any basis
>in fact.

The problem is that it is very difficult to retrieve radar
information in Italy. Airports do not want to divulgate
information. I have worked for the Italian Air Force and i knew
a person who works at the radar station... he said to me :"we
haven't seen anything, but in any case i cannot say anything to
you or other people not authorized".

I can say that my witness is a very reliable person and I
believe him.

Sincerely,





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 15

                        Re: Kenneth Arnold - Question

From: Kari Valimaa <suomen.ufotutkijat@kolumbus.fi>
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 19:21:07 +0200
Fwd Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 09:52:47 -0500
Subject: Re: Kenneth Arnold - Question


>Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 20:31:26 -0500
>From: Gary Alevy <galevy@pipeline.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: Kenneth Arnold - Question

>I understand you are trying to be helpful however; what's the
>point in posting the name misspelled and not giving a reference
>specifically with pagination that can be verified?

>Gary



The make of Kenneth Arnold's airplane was misspelled by Jenny
Randles in her book 'The Complete Book of UFOs, Judy Piatkus
Ltd,  Revised edition 1997, page 72.

Kari

Suomen Ufotutkijat ry.






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 15

                        Re: Watch For My Coming Hoax!

From: Jeff Westover <frequentflier66@yahoo.com>
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 09:58:32 -0800 (PST)
Fwd Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 11:51:09 -0500
Subject: Re: Watch For My Coming Hoax!


>>Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 11:06:56 -0500
>>From: Terry Blanton <commengr@bellsouth.net>
>>To: updates@globalserve.com
>>Subject: [Fwd:] Watch For My Coming Hoax!

>>We've been warned!

>>>From alt.alien.visitors:

>>   <><><><><><><><><><>

>>From: Michael Edelman <mje@mich.com>
>>Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
>>Subject: Watch for my coming hoax!
>>Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 12:39:37 -0500
>>Organization: Wayne State University

>>Fellow aliens, spooks, paranoids (you know who you
>>are) and schitzophrenics:

>>I am just about ready to launch my massive saucer
>>hoax on the nation, and I'm giving you advance
>>warning. I do so so (1) you'll know it's a hoax
>>and (2) to prove that it can work even if I
>>disclose it's a hoax in advance.

>>Watch for it!

Hello EBK and list.

I'm interested in knowing whether or not anyone in the mental
health field has ever done a study of the psychology of UFO
hoaxers?  It certainly would be a worthy area of study within
ufology.

Jeffrey S. Westover
Mt Pleasant, Michigan


==
Enter into the Night Of Light Art Gallery at
http://www.crystaltower.com/jeffw/









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 15

                               Re: BUFORAwatch

From: Tim Matthews <matthews@zetnet.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 07:42:34 -0000
Fwd Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 15:53:50 -0500
Subject: Re: BUFORAwatch


>From: Mike Wootten <ej77@dial.pipex.com>
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: BUFORAwatch
>Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 20:53:44 GMT

>BUFORAwatch has just received the following from a BUFORA
>insider. Our deep-throat informant states that this was posted
>onto the Internet as one of our bulletins. This did not
>originate from us but it's interesting enough to be one.

>Happy reading!

>BUFORAWATCH

>It has come to our attention that controversial UFO researcher
>Malcolm Robinson has recently become a BUFORA council member.

>Since moving to London in May 1998, Robinson has been quitely
>active on the fringes of the British UFO Research Association,
>providing

>BUFORA with a number of lecture presentations. However, he was
>effectively stopped from taking a more active role in the
>association due to his stance on BUFORA's hypnosis moratorium.
>Robinson (although officially associated

<snip>

>And how come Robinson is rated higher than someone like Andy
>Roberts on the BUFORA council scale? Andy is a critic of the
>BUFORA machine, but Robinson has effectively broken it's own
>rules, and did so repeatedly, with premeditated intent. But
>Robinson gets on council, regardless. Why????

>The ease in which such a controversial character as Robinson has
>quietly slid onto the BUFORA council should be contrasted with
>the problems Andy Roberts experienced in merely keeping his
>BUFORA membership! It can also be contrasted with the many
>objections BUFORA council had to Robert Moore's request for Andy
>Roberts to help with the BUFORA BULLETIN!  This resulted in
>Robert Digby (more on him later!) proposing changes to the
>running of the BULLETIN, which effectively means council now has
>full control over t he running of the magazine, although Robert
>Moore may ask people to write articles, etc on a regular basis
>(gee, thanks Mr. Digby..!).

I don't think that Malcolm is entirely the devil he is shown as
here....

Having met him I though that he came over as a dedicated
researcher who has got the best interests of the subject at
heart....I think he is genuinely convinced that hypnosis is an
effective method.

I don't know of anybody who agrees though.

Yes, I am totally against the use of hypnosis as are most UK
investigators but there are ways of doing things and I have
concluded that this kind of attack is NOT the way!

BUFORA appears to be finished and it is true that this is
largely as a result of;

1 - A rump of Council members running the show with no reference
to the membership.

2 - The non-appearance of "UFO Times" for 10 months during 1997.

3 - The problem of trying to maintain a public face of
supporting research into supposed "ET reality" where 95% of the
accredited investigators do not support a belief in 'alien
contact', especially through the use of hypnosis (!).

4 - The lack of interest shown by the members perhaps as a
result of BUFORA's rather odd structure whereby the Association
is a registered company and where bureaucracy takes precedence.

(I am told that until the early 1990s BUFORA Council meetings
did not even discuss UFO research and were more akin to bank
managers' conventions!)

>Resignations???????:

>As a result of this decision, it is known that a number of
>resignations have taken place, or will do so in the near future.
>It is said that the editor of the BUFORA BULLETIN - Robert Moore
>- has resigned. We contacted Robert to confirm this, but he
>would say no more than he is stepping down as editor in
>February-March 1999, in order to "concentrate on other
>projects". (Come on, Robert, tell us the real reason! Don't be
>shy!!)

>Other people said to be on the verge of resigning from BUFORA
>(to our knowledge) include Andy Roberts, David Clarke, Jenny
>Randles, Tony Eccles and Kevin McClure.

I think they're all well out of it. Jenny only helps with the
UFOCALL service whilst Andy, Dave and Kevin are most likely to
go with the IUN - being launched at the big Southport UFO
Conference on 27th February.

>There are currently two concerns entertained by those aware of
>this decision. The first is that the BUFORA lecture programme
>will become bias ed and slanted towards Robinson's extreme views
>of UFOs. The second is of th e future; where will this end - as
>Robinson as BUFORA Director of Investigations!!!

I'm not sure that's true but it's the old problem;

Most attenders seem to want to hear about 'aliens' whilst most
of the active types - researchers/investigators - want to focus
upon objective research.

The simple solution whereby a proportion of each BUFORA
membership could be directed exclusively towards objective UFO
research has never been adopted and the NIC has virtually ceased
to exist.

Perhaps the failure to develop an NIC WITH IT'S OWN independence
and funding is evidence of a desire within 'the rump' to control
the Association for its' own ends?

>This decision by BUFORA council also seemingly puts a large
>shadow of doo m over the hypnosis moratorium. It also seems to
>indicate that the goals of BUFORA the mass-membership society
>can override and superceed the ideals of BUFORA the objective
>UFO study group! If this is true, BUFORA will be looked upon as
>an effectively inert player in the field of serious ufolog y.
>And it will only have itself to blame if this state of affairs
>come to pass.

Yes, I hear you but every NIC meeting has voted overwhelmingly
to reject the use of hypnosis and this has been a feature of
its' work.

In any case, membership is down to around 500, half of what it
was until fairly recently. There are various reasons as to why
this has happened but the most obvious one is not internal - in
fact people are losing interest. The "X" factor is diminishing,
even in this Millennial year!


>"Ping..... Bong.....!"

>Philip Mantle on the rebound?

>I am sure you will have noted Robert Moore's circular e-mail re
>QUEST magazine sent out in the late summer of 1998. This asked
>for material for a BUFORA UFO column in this magazine. Despite
>this, nothing materialised. I t is rumoured that Digby (infamous
>for his "I'll be getting rid of Jenny Randles soon!" remark made
>at a northern UFO conference in the early 1990's) was
>less-than-happy with Moore's openness towards this assignment ,
>where he fully addressed the concerns of some towards QUEST and
>any monie s forthcoming from this assignment to him.

>So, it was with some surprise that we heard Philip Mantle had
>been appointed. If this is not a case of "jobs for the boys" I
>don't know what is! Given the covert croneyism displayed by the
>content of this magazine (where many pieces are written by
>members of BUFORA's so-called "inner" council; ie Spencer, Beer,
>Gamble, etc) does this suggest that Mantle is now worming his
>way back up the BUFORA ladder?

No, not at all. As far as I am aware Philip is ONLY a BUFORA member
and is only involved with 'Quest' on a limited basis.

Anyway, it's up to him, and nobody else!

>Again, as with Robinson, BUFORA's "inner council" has again
>shown it's fondness for scientifically-ignorant individuals with
>extreme ufological views. We all know how Mantle is deemed a
>"cash cow" by some within thhe association, so his return seems
>effectively preordained.

This is a problem for all Ufology - not just BUFORA!! After all,
"science" does not provide simple and sensationalist answers to
the difficult questions posed by the variety of UFO phenomena..

>It's a pity BUFORA's inner circle don't show more support for
>it's more objective members, where it's future as an objective
>UFO body surely lies. But does the BUFORA "Inner council"
>actually want such a future for the association? Does it
>actually want the association to merely be a "gee-wow" group,
>catering for sensationism and scientifically dubious (but
>popular) notions???

Maybe....but this wouldn't be a problem is the mass membership
paid for effective research. That would indeed be a reasonable
compromise but I believe that the re-forming Independent UFO
Network - THE most successful UK group between 1987 and 1994
 - in terms of research at least - is the way forward and I am
certainly not alone in voicing this opinion.

I think that it's too late for BUFORA which is a great shame
given its potential.

But we must move on...........

Tim X






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 15

                      Re: Secret USAF 'SETI' Projects?

From: Victor Viggiani <zland@globalserve.net>
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 17:25:59 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 16:01:04 -0500
Subject: Re:  Secret USAF 'SETI' Projects?


>Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 07:57:02 +0000
>Subject: Re: Secret USAF 'SETI' Projects?
>From: Bob Shell <bob@bobshell.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>

>>From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Secret USAF 'SETI' Projects?
>>Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 08:00:16 -0400

>>If one checks a topographic map one finds that the VLA is a good
>>ways West of Socorro in a relatively unique area The Plains of
>>San Augustine or San Agustin. It is flatter than a pacncake at
>>an altitude over 6500 feet, is surrounded by mountains up to
>>10,000 feet and was a lake bed until about 5000 years ago.

>>It is a very sparsely inhabited area.

>Most people are familiar with the VLA from the movie Contact.

<snip>

>I seriously doubt that those dishes can transmit.  The place is
>open to the public, and there is no security to speak of, so if
>there was transmitting equipment it would be very hard to hide.

>However, that canyon that Jodie Foster goes and sits by in the
>movie just does not exist.  The whole place is flat as a
>pancake.



Bob,

Greetings from Canada.

Just a note to say that I have visited Soccorro and the VLA.
Spent several days in the town to do my own investigation about
"things" in the summer of '96.

Interesting discussions off the record with a former Los Alamos
physists, now working at VLA.

The question about the VLA's "receiving" and "sending" capacity
was very evasively answered by staff during the presentation.

The radio capacity to identify signals, distance stars, galaxies
etc. was the focal point. Seemed to me people were tip-toeing
around the obvious.

Regarding the '47 landings there, the history of it is quite
entrenched.

Lots more about the trip if you wanna know more.

Los Alamos, Holloman AFB Kirkland AFB, Dulce, Corona (spoke to
Loretta Proctor and visited Corona landing site), Magdelena,
Roswell, Santa Fe, Taos, Sun Spot, Alamagordo, Rachel, Area 51
(camped out for 3 nites outside of boundary, 3 sightings of
incredulous luminous craft behaviours), and many more places
visited... the trip of a lifetime for investigative richness.
Glad to share the experiences with if you'd like.





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 15

             Re: Official US Air Force 'Roswell Incident' Report

From: Steven W. Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 17:25:49 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 16:34:51 -0500
Subject: Re: Official US Air Force 'Roswell Incident' Report


>Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 16:22:35 -0800
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Neil Morris <neil@adm1.ph.man.ac.uk>
>Subject: Re: Official US Air Force 'Roswell Incident' Report

<snip>

>Of course some nice helpfull person may think to try and get the
>Cc out of the archives under the FOIA?.


Neil-

Interesting post, and I agree that this needs to be researcher
further.

Is there any indication that a duplicate of the negatives was
ever created and retained?  Since there was no "official"
investigation ((that I'm aware of) following the announcement in
Ramey's office, I'm not familiar with any evidence that was
gathered and retained (other than the annecdotal references
mentioned by Roswell witnesses).

It is my understanding that the Air Force had a duplicate of the
negative made in 1994 (or thereabouts) as part of their
investigation in anticipation of the GAO probe, but it would
have already sustained the damages mentioned.

If we have reason to believe that a duplicate was made at the
time, then we could make the request of the Archives.

Steve







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 15

                       Re: Military Retirees & Secrecy

From: Dave Vetterick <veterick@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 16:46:28 -0600
Fwd Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 16:40:09 -0500
Subject: Re: Military Retirees & Secrecy


>Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 23:32:40 -0800
>From: Judith Dale <judithdale@earthlink.net>
>To: UFO UpDates-Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Military Retirees & Secrecy

>I have been following the recent discussion regarding the
>consequences that might occur if a retired military person was
>to break their secrecy agreement.

<snip>

The key thing missing here is..What is the basis for the fear?

He wouldn't be revealing any secrets, just explaining what he
was told would be the consequences if he talked, and who told
him this causing him to think it was credible?

From there you can eliminate it as a justifiable fear, and then
make all sorts of arguments as to why he should talk.

Start with the fact that even the military can't legally
threaten bodily harm or death without due process. It's almost
impossible to serve up the death penalty even to convicted mass
murderers much less for violating a 30 year old oath.

What are they going to do, break someone's leg instead?

This oath crapp is a cop out or cover for BS to start with.

Dave Vetterick





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 15

                                Firmage 1995

From: Sue Kovios <bradford@globalserve.net>
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 06:27:58 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 17:08:01 -0500
Subject: Firmage 1995

Source: http://www.zdnet.com.au/pcweek/news/1127/onov29.html

Note:  This is _1995_

November 29, 1995 2:00 p.m.

Two senior Novell execs quit to form new venture

By Norvin Leach

Two senior Novell Inc. officials announced this morning that they
would leave the company on Jan. 5 to start their own Internet-related
venture.

Joe Firmage, vice president of strategic planning for Novell's systems
group, and Toby Corey, vice president of marketing for the systems
group, disclosed few details of their proposed startup, which Firmage
said "will be complementary to what many of the leading software
vendors are doing now."

Firmage said the two are leaving Novell because their plan does not
fit into the Orem, Utah, company's new, slimmed-down business
model.

"We're actually very pleased with the moves Novell has made, but
the entrepreneurial bug has caught me again," he said.

Firmage, 25, formed his first company when he was 19 years old.
That company, Serius Corp., was bought by Novell in 1993 for $17
million.

Copyright (c) 1995 Ziff-Davis Publishing Company. All rights reserved.
Reproduction in whole or in part in any form or medium without express
written permission of Ziff-Davis Publishing Company is prohibited. PC
Week and the PC Week logo are trademarks of Ziff-Davis Publishing
Company. PC Week Online and the PC Week Online logo are
trademarks of Ziff-Davis Publishing Company.





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 15

                           Re: Sightings - Czarnik

From: Michael Christol <mchristo@mindspring.com>
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 17:58:14 -0600
Fwd Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 17:15:00 -0500
Subject: Re: Sightings - Czarnik


>Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 07:37:07 -0600
>From: Ron Decker <decker@wt.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Sightings - Czarnik

>Thanks very much for the offer. If anything -does- change I will
>certainly be in touch.

>I believe you're correct in your views regarding
>whistle-blowers. While they may want to come forth, they still
>gotta eat! And that's a pretty strong incentive to zip one's lip
>whether the threat is real or perceived.

Well, when you make these trips and then find that people will
not talk to you it gets rather agravating....I'm sure you know
that yourself...

Most of those on the List who would disagree with this are
probably in their 20 - 40 year range.  They don't know what it
is to be without any hope of replacing your pension if you do
loose it.  They can quit one job and find another in the not too
distant future.

Those who are in their 60's or older, don't have that luxury for
the most part.  Oh, they can flip a burger, or Greet customers,
and some even work as security gards at plants. But most do
not...It's a long life when you have no money and no way to get
it...(actually it can be a very short one then...<G>)

>Oddly, this same friend's father once worked for NASA as a
>tracker during various missions. He claims that during the first
>moon mission he personally tracked 'unknowns' following the
>spacecraft all the way from the earth to the moon and back
>again.

Yeah, I have heard these stories as well as those which claim
that these vehicles were seen sitting on the surface of the moon
on top of the crater rims, as if watching them as they moved
about the surface taking samples....

<snip>

>Neither of the witnesses (both women) would give me their names
>but recounted the incident and another besides that involved a
>cigar- shaped UFO dipping into the waters of Galveston Bay. But
>no personal information.

>The fear is palpable. Whether it's justified or not is another
>matter and probably doesn't matter in the end. The net effect is
>the same.

Yes, I know what you are saying.  Have you by any chance tried
to contact these people again, to see if there have been
recurring incidents?  It happens sometimes...

There have been reports from all over about UFOs being seen
entering lakes and bays... There are reports of divers having
actually found objects on the bottom of the lake, only to dive
down again and find them gone.

The trick would be to find them still there and bring them up.
<G>

>I've spoken with many folks who have had anomalous experiences.
>Those who share them seem glad to do so. If you ask them if
>they'd be willing to go public, well, that's another story.

Yes, I have run into that also...An abductee whom I know,
willingly talks about his abduction, but when it comes to
talking to his doctors and others who could very well verify his
physical condition, or refute it, he shy's away.

He does not want to be well known, in the sense that I would
take him into the national limelight, if he were to help me
verify his conditin.... But, I cannot justify doing that,
regardless of my belief in the truthfullness of his claims.  I
will not make him the target of the naysayers nor myself for
that matter...<smile>

REgards, Mike






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 15

                           Re: Sightings - Czarnik

From: Michael Christol <mchristo@mindspring.com>
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 18:08:49 -0600
Fwd Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 17:17:42 -0500
Subject: Re: Sightings - Czarnik


>Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 10:16:34 -0500
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Sightings - Czarnik


>I don't think that there's any question that regulations are in
>place that would allow for the loss of pension and health
>benefits if a security oath is violated.  Depending on the

>A point was raised yesturday that any prosecution, or denial of
>benefits, would serve to validate the statements being made as
>true, so that is unlikely to happen when "black projects" (or
>UFOs) are involved.  Any breach involving national security at
>that level would most likely be handled behind closed doors, and
>those involved would be warned to not say anything about it in
>public.

Well, I don't doubt this at all.  But there is always the
scenario where "MIBs" often are reported making visits to the
person's home to reinforce the ideas.  People seem to be easily
intimidated by the appearance of these guys...I just wish they
would come visit me. I would actually like to get a look at
these guys. <G> Perhaps I could do a little intimidating myself.
<G>

>All this being said, it also provides someone who is trying to
>gain attention (for whatever reason) a convenient excuse as to
>why they "can't devulge details", or talk about it with those
>who might ask too many questions.  Many people have argued that
>one way to get the "truth" out would be to change the
>regulations and grant immunity to those who speak out about the
>military's involvment with UFOs.  However, I have to wonder if
>this will bring forth more valuable information, or perhaps a
>different set of reasons as to why they can't talk.

Or the next generation of "I know a secret," crackpots... That
is the problem with all of this...anyone can make a claim, but
it is another thing to produce verifiable data to back it
up..<g>


Thanks Steve.

REgards, Mike






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 15

                        Re: Kenneth Arnold - Question

From: Gary Alevy <galevy@pipeline.com>
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 19:13:34 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 17:21:00 -0500
Subject: Re: Kenneth Arnold - Question


>From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
>Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 09:31:58 +0000
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: Kenneth Arnold - Question

>>From: Gary Alevy <galevy@pipeline.com>
>>Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 20:31:26 -0500
>>Fwd Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 08:46:23 -0500
>>Subject: Re: Kenneth Arnold - Question

>Previously, Kari offered:

>>>Kenneth Arnold's airplane was single-engined Callier. According
>>>to Jenny Randles ('The Complete Book of UFOs', Revised edition,
>>>1997), it was specially designed for mountain work - capable of
>>>landing in rough fields and pastures.

>Gary Alevy countered:

>>I understand you are trying to be helpful however; what's the
>>point in posting the name misspelled and not giving a reference
>>specifically with pagination that can be verified?


>One might very well ask the same regarding your posts about
>Hynek and Larsen. At least Kari can prove Arnold's plane
>existed, even if the name is misspelled. How about a reference
>and pagination to support your own info?



Roger,

You are a piece of work.  You assert she can prove Arnold' plane
existed.

How?

Perhaps if she could bring the plane to my home, with the
paperwork documenting its chain of ownership. Otherwise without
physical evidence acceptable to me I won't consider anything
else proof.

Or maybe she should land it on the Whitehouse lawn.

Isn't that how your usual line of reasoning goes.

Or am I to accept on your word that her proof is my proof.

Why don't you file a FOIA for Larsen and Hynek's paystubs.
If you don't know how people are vetted then I suggest that
you brush up on your tradecraft.

Gary





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 15

                           Re: Sightings - Czarnik

From: Michael Christol <mchristo@mindspring.com>
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 18:34:24 -0600
Fwd Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 17:23:19 -0500
Subject: Re: Sightings - Czarnik


>From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
>Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 14:34:33 +0000
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Sightings - Czarnik

>Of course, that's why I differentiated this post by using the
>term "UFO whistle blowers". I do not believe that I suggested no
>whistle blowers of any kind had ever come forth and been
>punished for their actions by private corporations.

No you did not...

>The difference is that when someone works for a private
>corporation and blows a whistle, they can sue the company if
>they lose their benefits, assuming they have proof that they
>were singled out for retaliation. Therefore, it might be worth
>the risk since there is a recourse for the whistle blower.
>Sometimes they win, sometimes not. The corporation bean counters
>also look at the risk factor to determine if they want to pursue
>or settle or just stand back and see what happens.

Yes, that is true, but I think it depends on how deep the
company itself is involved with "sensitive projects," and
whether these projects are directed linked to the Military Black
Ops... If they are, the as you relate in the next paragraph, the
person is facing a "hard road to hoe.." <G> You didn't quite
phrase it that way, but it means the same thing.

>On the other hand, people working for the government are in a
>totally different situation since it's very difficult to
>successfully sue the US government for anything, even when you
>HAVE proof of wrong doing. Therefore, intimidation tactics and
>physical threats are more likely to be used since there's
>virtually nothing the victim can do about it. This person is
>facing a giant with endless physical, legal and monetary
>resources.

Yes, it is very difficult to sue the US Government and win, but,
it has been done...and it can be done again...but you just
better have the stuff to get it done.

>Relating to the above info you mentioned, is there any record of
>these woman's families suing the US government and successfully
>getting a judgement? I believe the info was, as you put it, a
>revelation since it had been covered up for decades by the
>government. I doubt if things have changed much, other than the
>government is much better at covering
>its tracks.

I didn't really follow up on that...but I know the information
is readily available to those who will take the time to check
it out...

In fact there may be people on this list who do know the answer
to this question.

>As you point out, these are just names. If there was any
>definitive proof that would turn the UFO world on its ear, we'd
>be talking about that in this post instead of the current topic.

Well, there very may have been "definitive proof" at some point,
but you can bet that by the time the powers that be, got though
with the story, it looked like something form "Mickey Mouse."
<G> I just don't know....

>Finally, I had offered:

>>>On the other hand, if someone DID have proof that would be
>>>damaging to the powers that be, then it's quite likely that the
>>>general public would never be allowed to even hear about that
>>>person's existence. In such a case, the whistle blower in
>>>question would have much bigger problems that "loss of pension",
>>>if you get my drift.


>>I would say that you are correct in your assumption here Roger.
>><G>

>Which assumption, Mike?

I was generally replying to both statments, but more especially
the last one..."the whistle blower in question would have much
bigger problems..."

Yes, indeed...

REgards, Mike





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 15

                             Re: Fox TV Special

From: Michael Christol <mchristo@mindspring.com>
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 18:48:52 -0600
Fwd Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 17:26:23 -0500
Subject: Re: Fox TV Special


>From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: Fox TV Special
>Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 01:45:47 -0500

>>I know that you have virtually no respect for the material in
>>question...It is quite evident by the message you posted. Please
>>don't think that I am attacking you... I am not. I just want you
>>to listen to the information, then we will have something to
>>comment on.

>I have to admit I have little respect for the analysis you
>quoted, Michael, for all the reasons I stated. My opinion of
>Meier has nothing to do with that. I hope I'm an objective
>student of ufology, but I can't throw away all my professional
>knowledge of sound and music just to give the Meier case (or any
>other one) a chance.

Yet again Greg you are basing your bias on what I typed. I again
call for you to just take the time to view the CONTACT video
tape and then you and I can talk from a somewhat level playing
field... I respect your right to your opinion...but an opinion
which is formed on partial information, is incomplete. <G>

>Nattering nabobs of negativism? Is that what Spiro Agnew called
>us? <laughing>Seriously, Michael, I've never studied the Meier
>case. I was only reacting to the analysis you yourself quoted,
>because -- taken purely on its own terms -- it didn't make much
>sense. >>Thanks for you patience with me Greg...

>We're all students of life, Michael...

Even if you did study the Meier case, Greg, you may well have
the same opinion.

I would be able to better accept your opinion at that point.
But in this case, where you openly admit to not having
studied it, it would be akin to commenting on the "singing
Chipmunks," just because both of you are presenting music...<g>
This is totally to be taken in jest Greg...<g>

REgards, Mike






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 15

                       Re: Military Retirees & Secrecy

From: Thiago Ticchetti <thiagolt@opengate.com.br>
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 22:44:25 -0200
Fwd Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 17:30:18 -0500
Subject: Re: Military Retirees & Secrecy


>Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 23:32:40 -0800
>From: Judith Dale <judithdale@earthlink.net>
>To: UFO UpDates-Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Military Retirees & Secrecy

>I have been following the recent discussion regarding the
>consequences that might occur if a retired military person was
>to break their secrecy agreement.


Well about this discussion, my father were a Brazilian Air
Force, all his life, but at end of its life, he worked at the
A2, that means, the Brazilian Air Force Intelligence.

I always asked him about UFOs, documents, photos, and he always
denied it. Some day I implored him to let me see some
documents... and he said ok. So the soldier give me a briefing
about UFOs...there had a lot of reports, from pilots, civilians
and so...well, what a tryied to say is, he never were
threatened...






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 15

                          Re: UFO Sighting in Italy

From: Rob Irving <RobIrving@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 17:31:41 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 17:31:41 -0500
Subject: Re: UFO Sighting in Italy

        ::
:
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 20:04:44 EST
To: updates@globalserve.net
:
Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: UFO Sighting in Italy
:
:
:


> Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 18:14:56 +0100
> From: Fabrizio Monaco <F.Monaco@stm.it>
> To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
> Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: UFO Sighting in Italy

Hi Fabrizio,

> Fabrizio Monaco
> CISETI International Coordinator >>

What do the letters CISETI stand for?

Rob





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 15

                         The State of Ufology Today

From: Gary Alevy <galevy@pipeline.com>
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 20:15:06 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 17:46:56 -0500
Subject: The State of Ufology Today



>From: George Filer <Majorstar@AOL.COM>
>Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 19:08:34 EST
>Fwd Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 22:32:20 -0500
>Subject: Filer's Files 99-#1 MUFON Skywatch Investigations

>Filer's Files #1-1999,  MUFON Skywatch Investigations
>George A. Filer,  MUFON Eastern Director,  Happy New Year
>January  8, 1998,   Majorstar@aol.com  (609) 654-0020

>UFOs SUDDENLY DISAPPEAR FOR THE HOLIDAYS:

Every once in a while something appears on this List that is so,
well, amazing (sic) that it cries out for commentary.  Such an
item was the January, 1999, edition of _Filer's Files_, written
by the Eastern Director of MUFON, George A. Filer.  That is,
this missive beggars description, though I am going to try.  Can
it be that the coming end of the millenium has addled the brains
of otherwise steady people?  Maybe.  Or perhaps what we see
below is simply more of the same wheel-spinning that MUFON is
famous for.

My comments after the quoted sections >.

>UFOs SUDDENLY DISAPPEAR FOR THE HOLIDAYS:

>Sightings seemed to disappear in the days before Christmas and
>into the New Year.  Apparently even UFO pilots like to home for
>the holidays.

Or perhaps the human reporters have done the same thing?

>We can speculate they are off for the holidays or over Iraq.

Maybe visiting war zones IS their idea of a holiday! Perhaps
they enjoy watching the natives at play!

>The sudden lack of reports may indicate people are too busy to
>notice UFOs or report them.

What a concept, i.e., the ufonauts don't report themselves!
Please direct them to the Bureau of Alien Registration.

>UFOs may have simply disappeared from our skies as they also
>seemed to do last year at this time.  This apparent absence of
>UFOs may be an indicator to understanding the UFO phenomenon.

Or, an indicator of an incredible obtuseness.

>My files indicate that December has been a comparatively slow
>month over several decades.

You know, I just can't IMAGINE why this should be, can you?

>I feel more than fifty percent of the sightings can be explained
>as aerial misidentifications, natural phenomenon, various types
>of secret military aircraft and the like.

I am amazed at your abilities, after decades in the field.

>There continues a steady stream of reports throughout most of
>the year.

Well, yes, this is most certainly so and worthy of comment.

>It seems that the reporting of these misidentifications should
>continue, even if the real UFOs departed.

The "real" UFOs!  Got them pinned down, do you?!  And I rather
imagine if the "real" UFOs stopped coming around we'd see an end
to the other reports as well, after a decent interval.

>In the few days before Christmas, the only UFO reports I
>received were an Utah report and observations of a large
>V-shaped craft over Bagdad, Iraq during US and UK bombing raids.
>These raids were apparently conducted without contacting Russia
>resulting in the serious cooling of international relations
>between Russia and
>the US that could lead us back to the Cold War.  CNN television
>carried live shots of the bombing and strange V-shaped craft
>above the city.  These reports infer the US military may be
>using
>holographic technology or other sophisticated hardware to
>confuse Iraqi antiaircraft gunners.

What kind of "strange V-shaped craft" for God's sake!  This is
potential big news, unlike most of what is published here.
Let's get after those "V-shaped objects" -- they might be the
sources for Larry Flint's information!

>In reviewing 1998, Georgia had more UFO reports than any other
>state.  Early in the year the reports were centered mostly in
>the La Grange area of Western Georgia.  The bulk of the sighting
>reports then moved towards and north of the Atlanta area.  New
>Jersey, New York, Pennsylvania and Ohio followed with the most
>reports in the Eastern part of the US.  California, Colorado and
>Arizona sent me the second largest group of reports.

>Numerous reports are sent to the National Reporting Center,
>MUFON, ISUR, Skywatch, TASK, etc.  We attempt to verify these
>reports as best as possible and many reports we receive are
>never published.  The reader should be aware that verification of the
>reports is expensive and time consuming problem.

Now, just how are there reports "verified?"  And just what do
these "verifications" purport to "prove" to anyone?

>MUFON investigators like myself are not paid or reimbursed for
>numerous phone calls, travel, and time expended to verify the
>reports.

Now, that says a whole lot about something, doesn't it?  That
is, the "verification" process is self-funded, by the verifiers,
who are just ordinary citizens.  Impressive, to say the least.

>I have learned from experience that the Air Force, police and
>other organizations will seldom officially verify the presence
>of a UFO.

Let's see, hasn't this been the case since about 1947?  That is,
isn't THIS the problem -- the REAL reason we're getting nowhere
with all these "reports" and "verifications?"  I think so. And
just why is this so?  Don't want to go there, eh?

>Unofficially, we have received verifications after getting to
>know the officials on a friendly basis.

But, of course, you can't use their names or rank and they will
deny everything when the crunch comes!  And, anyway, don't we
have all kinds of written and verbal statements by various local
officials (even police and military) "verifying" UFOs?  I think
so.  But what has happened as a result, hmm?  Very little, yes?

>Many conscientious people who report UFOs do not want their real
>name known and hide or refuse to respond to our attempts to
>contact them.

I'm shocked but then I just fell of the turnip truck yesterday!
Gee, you'd think that by now the citizenry of the USA would be
over this, wouldn't you?  This is a serious handicap, isn't it?
I mean, if we could get ANOTHER 100,000 sighting reports from
the >people who won't now sign their names, well, that WOULD
cinch the case, would it not?

>I admit that I have occasionally been fooled by people hoaxing
>UFO reports.  Fortunately the number of hoaxes is very small.

God, I'm glad of that or we'd all be in trouble!  That is, it
sure seems like the hoaxers often do quite well with the UFO
organizations, at least for a while!  Then, later, when things
blow up, well, how does that affect their credibility?

>I report the siting if it seems authentic.

Is that "siting" or "sighting?"  Inquiring minds want to know!

>We attempt to have investigators follow up the reports.  Often
>those people with the best sightings are very reluctant to be
>interviewed.  They often do not want UFO investigators coming to
>their homes or giving out their names.  I think this is
>understandable.  Even under the best conditions it is difficult
>to have a meaningful follow up investigation.  We have MUFON
>investigators driving hundreds of miles to meet with a witness
>who fails to show.  Sometimes they refuse to fill out the papers
>or sign their name.

And what do you have if they DO sign their name?  Just another
sighting to add to the thousands of others filed away in dusty
files -- since the 1950s, for heaven's sake!  So what!

>I wish to thank those investigators who have driven the miles,
>spent their time and written the reports.  One investigation
>done correctly can take days.  MUFON and most UFO organizations are
>strictly volunteer with no pay.  Expenses are not paid, and a
>great deal of time and effort is spent.  The investigators
>deserve a medal, a thank you, and a well done.  They are the
>heroes of this field.

And, it seems to me, dumber than dirt.  Why spend any more time
and money on this activity?  What does it gain you!  Don't you
know that Richard Hall's house is near unto bursting with file
cabinet after file cabinet of UFO reports, all just as
"verified" as the latest thing MUFON is doing!  What in heaven's
name will piling up more of THESE do to move things along?

>During 1998, we had a series of hoaxers who claimed to have
>inside government information and secrets concerning UFOs.

Do tell!  We never had THIS happen before, did we?  Only about
every other week!  And no one EVER falls for it, do they?  At
least, no one among the "leaders," right?

>They seldom are long time researchers or investigators.

But sometimes they are such!?  Which ones?  When?

>They suddenly appear making wild claims and erroneous reports.

So, why don't you just ignore them?  I mean, that's what I'd do.

>Hasn't it ever occurred to you guys that every minute and dollar
>you spend chasing these hoaxes is a dollar and a minute you do
>NOT have to spend chasing more of those valuable sighting
>reports.  Ooops!  I think I see the problem!]

>Unfortunately, it is expensive and very time consuming to weed
>out hoaxers.

Why!  Who cares?  Why waste you time on them -- unless even YOU
folks secretly know you're getting nowhere with your normal,
day-to-day activities.

>They cause serious harm to the field and I often wonder if they
>are hired or compelled to cause trouble and confusion.

Well, there's an interesting idea, one that would require a
little investigation into areas today's ufological "leaders" are
loath to go.  But it might lead to some actual PROGRESS, might
it not?  But on second thought, NAAAH, it's worthless.

>I fail to understand their motivation.

You need to read more of Kal Korff's stuff; get into the know.

>Little if any of their information has been proved to be valid.

But then again, some of its has panned out, hasn't it?  Which
might lead ME to look really hard at these "hoaxes" as perhaps
not being what they seem on the surface, at least in part.

>They create confusion and hurt serious researchers.

How?  Why can't you folks just sail on, ignoring them?

>Often they have information that seems accurate at first, but
>later is determined to be false.

Hmm. How do they pull this off if they're just "hoaxers"? Could
it be that some of them are actually more than they seem and
that this fact might shed some interesting light on UFO history
and on some of it's various personalities?  But, NAAAH, it's
worthless.

>Often they will later admit lying despite their previous claims
>of being a NASA contractor, on the National Security Council,
>working inside NORAD and the like.

No kidding!  The NERVE of some people!

>Anyone who claims to possess startling UFO information should be
>able to provide at a minimum there military or government
>records, ID cards, college transcripts and similar evidence to
>prove their backgrounds and employment.

First, a Clarkism: "there" should be "their."  And, of course, I
agree -- all of these people should be vetted. . .as should all
the OTHER people in this field who have positions from which
they may pontificate!  Why stop with the new guys, huh?

>Those people who possess insider documents and information
>should be willing to produce these documents to respected
>organizations such as MUFON, CUFOS, or the Fund for UFO Research.

Well, I agree.  I'd trust ALL of those "respected" organizations
with secret stuff, since from the very beginning UFO
organizations have had numerous and obvious associations with
our "intelligence community."  But I don't think any of that
means anything, do you?  NAAAH!  Could it be that the
historically documented presence of representatives of the
intelligence community in those organizations might be just to
intercept those leaking insider documents and information?  I
mean if we can't trust all of the former/present intelligence
members who belong to these organizations, then who can one
trust!

>Ufology cannot expect to gain trust, if people without cred-
>entials are acknowledged without question.

I agree with this, and apply it to EVERYONE in the field!

>I strongly advise the reader to seriously question any claims of
>alien data, inside government knowledge, classifications above
>Top Secret and similar unsubstantiated UFO data.

I agree entirely!  Yes, sir, all of that can hardly be of any
importance compared to the piling up of the 100,000th UFO
sighting by a school teacher on an interstate highway on a
Tuesday afternoon.  And, anyway, how could a "government secret"
ever be "verified" by one of our verifiers, hmm?

>I have not reported on the release of new MJ-12 documents in
>these files, because I am not convinced they are genuine.

Is anyone?

>How would one person be able to steal these highly classified
>documents from the government?

I don't know. . .HAARP methods?

>There are guards, safes and controls to prevent this from
>happening.

Yet many government documents HAVE been stolen, hmm?  And who
could imagine that just today "intelligence officials" are
quoted in the New York Times that a naval intelligence analyst
stole a "roomful" of highly classified documents! Just what is
your interest in maintaining the fictions that these documents
can't and haven't been stolen?

>In many little ways the documents are vague and seem to contain
>errors.  For example, the documents infer they were written in
>1951.  The documents then refer to the Chief of Chaplains as a
>Major General Luther Miller who retired in 1949.  This is a
>small, but significant error.

No doubt sufficient to destroy the whole corpus!  And how
interesting that hoaxers who have gone to immense trouble and
know so much about the inner workings of certain government
agencies. . .could make such a simple mistake!

>Government documents generally contain more specific and
>detailed information.  They are written by a team of people
>representing various offices.  These documents seem to be written
>by one or only a few persons.  The new MJ-12 documents simply
>do not feel right to me, so I withhold judgment on their legitimacy.

Well, this is a detailed and specific critique, isn't it! But
I'll withhold judgement on that.

>Later, in these files there is further analysis of photographs
>taken by Dr. J. Bond Johnson in General Ramey's office of the
>Roswell crash debris.  This is old news but we now have new
>technology that may help prove what happened.

Or maybe not, hm?  That is, what would it take to "prove"
something about those photos to a true skeptic?  I think a lot
more than "computer enhancement!"  As for "old news," that's
what ufology is all about, all the time, that and "new"
sightings!

>There is a legitimate record of the film kept in storage at the
>University of Texas and Dr. Johnson.  The analysis may lead to
>an unsatisfactory conclusion, but at least we know the photographs
>are authentic.  Many abductees and military personnel have
>reported seeing similar strange symbols on board alien craft.
>In fact, some of the latest technology is similar to certain
>aspects of the debris.  You are invited to help and judge for yourself.
>Therefore, I will continue to cover this story.

Well, thanks, since you are my Silver Standard in ufologists!

>To those who desire to learn the truth about UFOs, I encourage
>you to read information from the respected leaders in the field
>such as Richard H. Hall's "Perspectives" column.  It's published
>monthly in the "MUFON UFO Journal."

Ah, yes, my Gold Standard for ufologists IS Mr. Hall!

>For example Richard states:
>The Art Bell piece [published in the November 1998, issue of the
>"MUFON UFO Journal"] makes me think about how the sociological
>aspects of the UFO movement distract from the physical science
>aspects.

Mr. Hall is a well-respected physical scientist with a huge
budget for instrumented scientific analysis of high flying UFOs!

>News media gleefully report on the colorful personalities, the
>more paranoid the better, but where is their reporting on the
>potentially important airline pilot sightings of the past few
>years?

So what if they WERE reported -- are they any different from
10,000 other sightings by airline pilots since 1947?

>Obviously, Bell is viewed by the media as representative of the
>UFO field, even as guru for ufologists.  Well, count me out.
>Let's stick to facts, logic, and science.

Ah, yes, but that's HALL'S "facts, logic and science!"

>Thanks to Bob Soetebier and the December '98 MUFON Journal, p18.

Thanks, indeed!

Gary Alevy





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 15

                             Re: Fox TV Special

From: Kelly Tyson <RCTyson@webtv.net>
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 19:19:45 -0600 (CST)
Fwd Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 17:49:48 -0500
Subject: Re: Fox TV Special


Could anyone post a sample of the sound(s) that are being so
vehemently debated?I seem to have missed the Fox TV Special and
would  also appreciate the name of the show and any possible
repeat dates!

And that's the way it is,RCTyson.





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 15

                            RPIT Test, Jonn Kares

From: John W. Ratcliff <jratcliff@worldnet.att.net>
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 19:35:07 -0600
Fwd Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 18:08:59 -0500
Subject: RPIT Test, Jonn Kares



Quick comment.  I've been more than slightly skeptical of the
whole Roswell Photo Interpretation team hyperbole.  Of course,
the idea is kind of fun, especially reports of memos offering
tantalizing details, a time capsule of the great mythological
'first coming'.

In the past I found it rather hysterical that the rhetoric from
James Bond Johnson included statements like "can clearly be
seen", in reference to blobs, blurs, and splotches. Most of his
proffered evidence has compelled me to offer Mr. Johnson a gift
certificate to Lenscrafters.

So, in that light, I tried a little experiment with the recent
image attachment which purported to include the eerie statement
about "the victims."  All I saw when I downloaded the image at
first, were the murder mystery letters cut-out.  With a great
deal of squinting I finally managed to imagine that there was in
fact a vague correlation between the two.

I then had my boss come into my office, and covered up
everything but the smudgecicles.  I asked him, cold, "What does
that say?"  He took a few seconds and then read the first half
of the sentence exactly!

I worthwhile experiment, I was surprised at the results.  I
guess the USAF is going to have to redress that whole "victims"
issue in their next report, due 50 years hence. <g>

John W. Ratcliff





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 15

                         Re: 'Pumpkin Seed' Aircraft

From: GT McCoy <gtmccoy@harborside.com>
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 19:13:35 -0800
Fwd Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 18:21:06 -0500
Subject: Re: 'Pumpkin Seed' Aircraft


Hi, with al the recent talk about unusual aircraft and all, go
to:

http://users.aol.com/slicklynne/facet.htm

We are talking _low_ aspect ratio and ot gives insight to why a
'pumkin seed' would work.

GT McCoy





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 15

                       Re: FOX Hoax Special - Reaction

From: James Easton <pulsar@compuserve.com>
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 22:38:17 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 18:48:29 -0500
Subject: Re: FOX Hoax Special - Reaction


Regarding...

>From: Gildas Bourdais <GBourdais@aol.com>
>Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1999 07:11:41 EST
>Subject: Re: FOX Hoax Special - Reaction

Gildas wrote:

>>Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 22:59:22 -0500
>>From: James Easton <pulsar@compuserve.com>
>>Subject: UFO UpDate: Re: FOX Hoax Special - Reaction
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>

>>Regarding the FOX 'Hoax Special' program...

>> <snip>

>>Still many more questions than answers.


>Thank you for your interesting analysis, and your very appropriate
>conclusion...


Gildas,

I was hoping Ray Santilli would clarify some questions I had
asked concerning the 'tent footage' story before I replied to
your mail. Unfortunately, although perhaps not unexpectedly, he
hasn't.

>... it seems to me. Just a few more thoughts: I find very improbable
>that Ray Santilli, a small music producer, would have launched in
>such a risky and costly operation of producing a highly complex hoax
>by himself.

Yes, the very idea of creating an 'alien autopsy' which would be
sufficiently credible to be taken seriously has so many problems
to overcome that it's difficult to understand why anyone would
invest in such a project.

Even if, as must surely be the case, the hoax could be
accomplished for a relatively small outlay, there's little
guarantee that both the film and those claiming authenticity
wouldn't be ridiculed, especially creating such a bizarre
'alien', although it was, by design or good fortune,
sufficiently 'humanoid' to be 'acceptable'.

The only comparative 'humaniod alien autopsy' I've seen is a
brief sequence in the 'Hangar 18' movie. You don't see them
actually perform the 'autopsy' though!


>I am surprised that the very possible hypothesis of a "secret
>services" operation has been paid so little attention, apparently (or
>am I wrong here?).

It would be more surprising if the 'conspiracy' angle hadn't
been suggested!


>What would be the purpose of such an operation? Perhaps two purposes.

>The first one would be to jam inquiries on Roswell getting too close
>to the truth.

I don't think ufology generally needs any help in that respect.


>Please note the worldwide release of the film coincided with the GAO
>report which, as a consequence, drew little attention in the press.

The timescale doesn't really equate and there's some important
background detail documented in the 'Manikin Who Fell to Earth'
feature on my web site, at:

http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/pulsar/aa_qa.htm

As mentioned therein, I located and obtained a copy of a
newspaper article published by the UK 'Daily Mirror' newspaper
17 August, 1992. A two-page spread, entitled 'ELVIS: his last
amazing letter', it tells the story of considerable and rare
Elvis Presley memorabilia which had been located in the US and
would feature in a documentary called 'Private Presley'.

The article mentions Ray Santilli and his company.

Ray told me, "I came back with many hours of rare Elvis film, so
rare that Polygram commissioned a report by ex-BMG (RCA)
director Roger Seaman".

Referencing some further facts noted in my 'Manikin...' summary:

* Back in Time *

The Cleveland visit in the summer of 1992 is factual and it
seems Ray Santilli did acquire a significant collection of Elvis
Presley film clips and memorabilia.

One of the first people he spoke to about the alleged "Roswell"
footage was Carl Nagaitis, a journalist with an interest in the
Elvis Presley story.

Nagaitis was also to co-author "Without Consent", a book on the
subject of "alien abductions". The co-author was Philip Mantle,
at that time Director of Investigations for BUFORA.

I discussed the case with both of them and they helpfully
clarified the background.


Via Mantle, Nagaitis released a statement explaining his
involvement:

"This is to confirm that I first met Ray Santilli in l992 while
researching an article for the Sunday People about some
never-before-seen photos of Elvis Presley. Ray was interested in
selling the rights to the story through a national newspaper.

Although we didn't do a deal, Ray and I got on well and he told
me how he had made many trips to the USA in search of the
material.

When I left Mirror Group Newspapers in January l993 I kept in
touch with my contacts, including Ray, and I had several
meetings with him about various possible projects. It was during
one of these meetings, in February or March of l993, that he
revealed that he had seen some remarkable material while in the
USA. He did not reveal the nature of that material".


This could be an allusion to the film which was to surface
almost two years later and is the first reference to any
"remarkable material" that I'm aware of.

Nagaitis continues, "Later in the year, when Ray and I were
discussing the possibility of a video on UFOs and alien
abductions (another aborted project) he went on to add that the
film he had managed to get from the USA was connected with the
Roswell Incident.

I remember that he mentioned this to be before I actually
introduced him to you (Philip Mantle)".


Mantle takes up the story:

"I was contacted by Ray Santilli in l993, the exact date of
which I did not keep.

Ray may have located me via Carl Nagaitis or by some of the
publicity that I was involved in at the time helping to promote
the movie "Fire in the Sky". To be perfectly honest, I am not
100 % sure how Ray located me but it was probably via one of the
two options above. At the time of my first contact with Ray
Santilli it was immediately clear to me that he knew either very
little or nothing about the Roswell case and UFOs in general.

The subject matter we discussed was mainly on abductions as I
recall, this being my idea as I was in the process of writing a
book on them at the time. However, I discussed many ideas none
of which, at that that time, included or involved anything to do
with Roswell or crashed UFO's in general".


"All I can say regarding Ray Santilli's "knowledge" of the
Roswell event is that as far as I'm aware he knew little or
nothing about it when I first met him. For example, for a long
time he called Roswell "Rosewell" and was not familiar with any
of the well known names of witnesses and/or investigators
associated with the case". [End]


Philip has confirmed that he told Santilli's tale to a few
'trusted colleagues', including John Spencer and Walt Andrus,
when Andrus was in the UK speaking at BUFORA's 1993 conference.

So, the story has its origins much further back than perhaps
generally realised.


It does nothing to verify the authenticity of the 'alien
autopsy' footage or the 'cameraman', still, in answer to the
question how likely was it that Ray Santilli would acquire
genuine 'Roswell' footage, we might say it was as likely as
finding the last letter Elvis Presley perhaps wrote and hours of
rare Presley film.

Than again, we might not...


Ray claims to have finally acquired all of the footage in
November/December 1994 and his explanation for the lengthy gap
since he allegedly first saw some of the film in the summer of
1992, was that he couldn't raise the finance.

In hindsight, if a hoax controlled by Ray, there was no
obligation for him to have explained how the purchase was
financed, however, he named a business acquaintance, Volker
Spielberg, and as you know Spielberg stated in the French TF1
documentary that he was a "collector", and did have "the film
reels".

This may, however, simply have been a planned excuse for later
'difficulties' in providing even one frame of archive, 16mm
'autopsy' film. As a hoax, it was extremely unlikely that any
'autopsy' frames would be offered as evidence which could be
independently tested.

And no surprises there...


A complex, yet by no means incredulous background to the claims
and that's before we even consider the questions of why an
'alien autopsy' hoax was considered worth the financial
investment and risk, plus Santilli's potential loss of business
and public credibility, who was responsible for the exceptional
SFX, how some of the effects were achieved, where it was filmed,
processed, by whom, when, etc.

All of which remain unknown, at the time of writing.

Not exactly a 'case closed'.


However, the bottom line is that despite the many unanswered
questions, anything founded on 'Roswell aliens' struggles to
reach first base and from the initial appearance of the 'tent
footage' there have been clear indications all along that the
entire escapade was a grandiose hoax, with Theresa Carlson's
dedicated research appearing to have eventually provided
absolute proof of that.

Doubt not the ability of a competent hoax to be sufficiently
anomalous and a spectacular hoax to be a real pain in the...


>In France, the autopsy footage was a disaster, not only for
Roswell >but for ufology itself, from which we are slowly
recovering.

Perhaps more of a disaster for 'Roswell' as the purported crash
of an ET spacecraft, or two/three etc. ET spacecraft and
resulting genuine 'alien autopsies', was that as the Santilli
footage became sufficiently credible to justify major UK and US,
indeed world-wide TV documentaries, Glenn Dennis's pivotal
Roswell 'autopsy' claims and perceptions of how the _real_
aliens looked, were being accepted as unreliable, if not simply
untrue.

As one of the main objections from 'Roswell' ET crash proponents
had been that the 'body' in the footage didn't correspond with
witness descriptions, it was a contest which Ray's alien easily
won.

It was at least still maintaining some credibility.


Frank Kaufmann's 'Roswell aliens', I would only mention in the
same sentence as my hope that one day Kevin Randle, or someone,
will be able to put to Kaufmann the questions I had raised and
documented re Kaufmann's claims.


>The second purpose, on the other hand, might be to accustom the
>general public to the idea of the alien presence on Earth, and to the
>future revelation of secret operations, which require obviously a
>long preparation (That's my optimistic touch).

As the 'popular face' of 'ufology' is effectively a declaration
that 'aliens' are zipping in and out of our bedrooms and a
clandestine US government has kept a dark secret from simple
folks for over 50 years, the public must be pretty well
accustomed to the idea by now!

Thankfully, they're not all so gullible and don't accept
everything at face value.

Any ufologists who might feel this is heresy, will hopefully
realise this is the precept applied from the beginning and with
some hostility to the 'alien autopsy'.


>All this does not necessarily mean that the film is authentic. It may
>just be close to the truth, but with some deliberate inaccuracies,
>just like, perhaps in other operations such as the MJ-12 documents,
>etc.

If the 'alien autopsy' was a disaster for ufology, a suitable
analogy for the patently bogus and quite ridiculous 'MJ-12' soap
opera would have to be something like mega-disaster.

Again, never underestimate what a reasonably competent hoax can
achieve and how it will be magnified by those who have an innate
desire to believe in it, or see the opportunities in supporting
and promoting it.


>I would be interested to read convincing arguments against this
>hypothesis.

I'm not sure if it's convincing, but it's an argument!


>Incidentally, I may have some information to release soon on the 'KGB
>Secrets' TV production. Russian ufologist Boris Shurinov, to whom I
>sent the video, has already presented a rather devastating analysis
>of it at a recent conference in Italy (Cagliari, in Sardinia, 12
>december 1998). He is to send me soon a summary of it (he was
>completing his inquiry) with his authorization to circulate it. Just
>to give an example,  he claims that the uniforms of the soldiers are
>not correct : they wear an officer's belt!

I'm sure this analysis would be of great interest to everyone.

Although I haven't seen any mention of it, possibly due to total
apathy, the TNT network's 'Secrets of the KGB UFO Files', or
whatever, was shown in the UK about six weeks ago.

As another presumed hoax, the scale of the 'crashed flying
saucer' footage was impressive and again indicated an ostensibly
competent recreation of a supposed real event.

Like the 'alien autopsy', the circumstantial 'documentary'
evidence also looked to be authentic.

It's an immense problem and questions whether any actually
genuine 'UFO' footage or related documents acquired under
'dubious' circumstances are now accepted to be bogus by default.


Incidentally, I recently taped, 'Secrets of the KGB JFK
Assassination Files' which was also hosted by Roger Moore,
resplendent in his 'spy' trenchcoat.

Assuming this has been shown in the US, although I also haven't
seen this mentioned, did it precede or supersede the 'TNT'
program?

It wasn't apparently a 'TNT' production, however, some of the
supposed 'hidden video' sequences showing the 'KGB secret files'
being purchased on the black market, had distinct similarities
to the TNT footage.


In any event, I'm hopeful there will shortly be quite
significant developments in the 'Santilli affair' and I can
explain what this relates to.



James.
E-mail: pulsar@compuserve.com





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 15

                     Re: Art Bell - Friday, January 8/9

From: Scott Ribordy <sdr@ns.net>
Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 03:36:50 GMT
Fwd Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 18:44:43 -0500
Subject: Re: Art Bell - Friday, January 8/9


>From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: Art Bell - Friday, January 8/9
>Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 18:33:51 -0500

>>From: Scott Ribordy <sdr@ns.net>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>Subject: Re: Art Bell - Friday, January 8/9
>>Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 04:15:29 GMT

>>Do you feel that you or Mr. Hopkins should "pay a price" for
>>propagating the alien abduction meme and all the associated harm
>>that it causes?

>What harm would that be? Please give details, with supporting
>evidence.

Hi Greg,

That's my whole point. There is no harm. I think Art Bell, John
Velez, Budd Hopkins, etc. should all be free to say what ever
they think is of interest to their audience without fear of
"paying a price" (as long as there is no _intent_ to cause
harm). The notion that Art Bell is responsible (even partly) for
the Heaven's Gate suicides is ludicrous.

<snip>

>"Meme" --
>biological term. An element of a culture or system of behavior
>that may be consider to be passed from one individual to another
>by non-genetic means, especially imitation." Nice swipe, Mr. R.
>Now prove it.)

I think the definition fits nicely. Thanks for including it. Do
you have a specific disagreement with it?


Scott Ribordy
sdr@ns.net





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 15

               Lectures explore NASA search for 'cosmic roots'

From: Keith Wyatt <keithwyatt@uswest.net>
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 20:51:53 +0000
Fwd Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 18:50:51 -0500
Subject: Lectures explore NASA search for 'cosmic roots'



Date sent:              Tue, 12 Jan 1999 12:40:22 -0800 (PST)
From:                   JPL Media Relations Office <JPLNews@jpl.nasa.gov>
To:                     news@www.jpl.nasa.gov
Subject:                Lectures explore NASA search for 'cosmic roots'
Send reply to:          news-owner@www.jpl.nasa.gov

MEDIA RELATIONS OFFICE
JET PROPULSION LABORATORY
CALIFORNIA INSTITUTE OF TECHNOLOGY
NATIONAL AERONAUTICS AND SPACE ADMINISTRATION
PASADENA, CALIF. 91109. TELEPHONE (818) 354-5011
http://www.jpl.nasa.gov

Contact: Jane Platt

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE                         January 11, 1999

PUBLIC LECTURES EXPLORE NASA SEARCH FOR 'COSMIC ROOTS'

     The search for life beyond the solar system will be the
topic of a pair of free public lectures Thursday, January 21, at
the Jet Propulsion Laboratory and Friday, January 22, at
Pasadena City College.

     "NASA's Origins Program -- The  Search for Our Cosmic Roots
and ... Galactic Cousins?" will be the topic of the lectures by
Dr. Firouz Naderi, manager of the Origins Program at JPL.  The
JPL lecture will be held in the Laboratory's von Karman
Auditorium, while the Pasadena City College lecture will be in
the campus' Forum.  Both are at 7 p.m., with limited seating
available on a first-come, first-served basis.

     Naderi will explain NASA's series of planned missions to
trace our existence to the formation of galaxies, stars, planets
and early life on Earth.  Origins missions will also hunt for
Earth-like planets around stars in our "galactic neighborhood."
The lectures are part of the monthly von Karman Lecture Series
sponsored by JPL's Public Affairs Office.

     During his 19 years at JPL, Naderi has also served as
program manager for the Space Science Flight Experiments
Program, project manager for the Scatterometer and SeaWinds
projects, and project manager for mobile satellite experiments.
Naderi was also the program manager at NASA Headquarters for the
Advanced Communications Technology Satellites Program.

     More information about JPL's von Karman Lecture Series is
available on the Internet at http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/lecture/,
or by calling (818) 354-5011. JPL is a division of the
California Institute of Technology.

                          #####
1-12-99 JP
#99-002

You are subscribed to the Jet Propulsion Laboratory's news
listserv. To unsubscribe, e-mail jplnews@jpl.nasa.gov . Leave
the subject blank, and type unsubscribe news in the body of the
message.

---------------------------------





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 15

                       'Haunted' Nuclear Power Plant?

From: Scott Carr <sardonica@erols.com>
Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 16:00:41 -0800
Fwd Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 19:09:47 -0500
Subject: 'Haunted' Nuclear Power Plant?


Hi EBK and List,

(I hope no on minds a slightly off-topic question)

I vaguely recall hearing a story on Sighting (or a similar show)
about an allegedly haunted nuclear power plant somewhere in the
U.S. -ring any bells? (I certainly do not mean to start a thread
debating the topic of ghosts, I'm just curious about this
particular story- and if it might possibly have been a
mis-identification of UFO, or some other phenomenon).

By now you might be asking yourself, what is Scott doing asking
all these questions- Kenneth Arnold's plane? UFO Cults? Haunted
power plants? Fear not, these are three separate research
avenues I'm pursuing for three separate projects.

As always, thanks for the tremendous, insightful, and
informative response to my previous questions!!!


-Scott C. Carr

Editor, The Flying Saucer Gazette
http://www.erols.com/sardonica

Producer, "UFO Desk"
99.5 FM WBAI, NY





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 15

                                     Re:

From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 17:24:44 +0000
Fwd Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 19:12:01 -0500
Subject: Re:


>From: Steven W. Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
>Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 17:25:49 -0500
>Fwd Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 16:34:51 -0500
>Subject: Re: Official US Air Force 'Roswell Incident' Report

>>Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 16:22:35 -0800
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>From: Neil Morris <neil@adm1.ph.man.ac.uk>
>>Subject: Re: Official US Air Force 'Roswell Incident' Report

Previously, Neil wrote:

>>Of course some nice helpfull person may think to try and get the
>>Cc out of the archives under the FOIA?.

Steven replied:

>Is there any indication that a duplicate of the negatives was
>ever created and retained?

<snip>

>It is my understanding that the Air Force had a duplicate of the
>negative made in 1994 (or thereabouts) as part of their
>investigation in anticipation of the GAO probe, but it would
>have already sustained the damages mentioned.

>If we have reason to believe that a duplicate was made at the
>time, then we could make the request of the Archives.

Hi Steven,

Perhaps I misread Neil's post, but wasn't he talking about
getting a "Cc" of the original Ramey message? I did not get the
impression that Neil was talking about a duplicate negative. As
I said, I may be mistaken. Did I get it wrong, Neil?

Take care,

Roger Evans





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 15

                        Re: Watch For My Coming Hoax!

From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net>
Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 14:22:47 -0800
Fwd Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 19:15:48 -0500
Subject: Re: Watch For My Coming Hoax!


>Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 09:58:32 -0800 (PST)
>From: Jeff Westover <frequentflier66@yahoo.com>
>Subject: Re: Watch For My Coming Hoax!
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>


>Hello EBK and list.

>I'm interested in knowing whether or not anyone in the mental
>health field has ever done a study of the psychology of UFO
>hoaxers? It certainly would be a worthy area of study within
>ufology.

Dear Jeffrey:

How about hoaxers in general? That might make the numbers large
enough to interest the Psychology community or others in allied
studies.

UFOs are a prime target of course, but so are paranormal
studies, exobiology, xenobiology ( bigfoot, loch ness .. ) and
other "fringe" areas. The lure might be the large numbers of
people who want to believe in something, but there may be some
other psychology afoot here entirely.

I would expect hoaxers in all fringe sciences to have very
similar modes and motives, but I could be wrong there too.


Best wishes

- Larry Hatch

= = = =





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 15

                       Re: Military Retirees & Secrecy

From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 17:50:20 +0000
Fwd Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 19:18:10 -0500
Subject: Re: Military Retirees & Secrecy


>From: Dave Vetterick <veterick@ix.netcom.com>
>Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 16:46:28 -0600
>Fwd Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 16:40:09 -0500
>Subject: Re: Military Retirees & Secrecy

Previously, Dave opined:

<snip>

>Start with the fact that even the military can't legally
>threaten bodily harm or death without due process. It's almost
>impossible to serve up the death penalty even to convicted mass
>murderers much less for violating a 30 year old oath.

>What are they going to do, break someone's leg instead?

>This oath crapp is a cop out or cover for BS to start with.

Hi Dave,

First off, I'm fairly certain there's only one "p" in crap.

Just joking.<G>

In a way, you answered your own question when you wrote:

>Start with the fact that even the military can't legally
>threaten bodily harm or death without due process.

The problem isn't what the military or government does that's
legal; those things are part of public record and can be
researched. The problem is what the military or government does
that's illegal. Those sort of things, such as CONTRA, don't
normally appear as part of the public record, but they do
happen. Do you think, per chance, that a single innocent person
wasn't killed during the CONTRA dealings? We're talking about
big money, clandestine arms running! The stakes were very high,
certainly as high as they would be concerning ET technology. In
fact, the stakes concerning ET technology might even be higher,
if it's real.

In this instance, due process is not a concern for "the powers
that be". Don't believe for a moment that just because something
is illegal that the government is going to avoid doing it if it
achieves the desired goal effectively and swiftly.

My father worked for a local TV station on the remote crew for
the better part of 45 years. He told me often how police
officers or government officials had confiscated field tapes
from his unit minutes after taping had been completed on some
story. These guys would arrive out of nowhere in the field and
descend on my dad's news truck. Sometimes a reason was given,
sometimes not. In every instance, my father was warned not to
resist.

Intimidation is a very real and effective weapon because it can
not be traced. On the other hand, I do agree that the "oath"
business gets a little old since we seem to be hearing it more
and more. It does seem that after 30 years, someone might feel
they could let their guard down. But then again, without proof
what are they going to say?

Take care,

Roger Evans





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 15

                        Re: Kenneth Arnold - Question

From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 18:09:13 +0000
Fwd Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 19:26:00 -0500
Subject: Re: Kenneth Arnold - Question


>From: Gary Alevy <galevy@pipeline.com>
>Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 19:13:34 -0500
>Fwd Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 17:21:00 -0500
>Subject: Re: Kenneth Arnold - Question

>>From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
>>Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 09:31:58 +0000
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>Subject: Re: Kenneth Arnold - Question

Previously, Kari had offered:

>>>>Kenneth Arnold's airplane was single-engined Callier. According
>>>>to Jenny Randles ('The Complete Book of UFOs', Revised edition,
>>>>1997), it was specially designed for mountain work - capable of
>>>>landing in rough fields and pastures.

Because Gary is so sharp and devotes himself to only facts that
can be proved, he cautioned Kari:

>>>I understand you are trying to be helpful however; what's the
>>>point in posting the name misspelled and not giving a reference
>>>specifically with pagination that can be verified?

Myself, annoyed with Gary's hypocracy concerning "factual
evidence" decided to remind him of his own short comings in
recent history:

>>One might very well ask the same regarding your posts about
>>Hynek and Larsen. At least Kari can prove Arnold's plane
>>existed, even if the name is misspelled. How about a reference
>>and pagination to support your own info?

In response, Gary formulated this brilliant passage, all the time
avoiding the question at hand:

>You are a piece of work.  You assert she can prove Arnold' plane
>existed.
>
>How?
>
>Perhaps if she could bring the plane to my home, with the
>paperwork documenting its chain of ownership. Otherwise without
>physical evidence acceptable to me I won't consider anything
>else proof.

>Or maybe she should land it on the Whitehouse lawn.

>Isn't that how your usual line of reasoning goes.

>Or am I to accept on your word that her proof is my proof.

>Why don't you file a FOIA for Larsen and Hynek's paystubs.
>If you don't know how people are vetted then I suggest that
>you brush up on your tradecraft.

And here are my logical, well formulated responses to the above:

1) I think you are full of crap.

2) I think the above proves you are full of crap.

3) I will continue to consider you full of crap as long as you
don't practice what you preach regarding "verification" of
facts.

4) Did I mention I think you are full of crap?


Later,

Roger Evans





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 15

                        Re: Kenneth Arnold - Question

From: Gary Alevy <galevy@pipeline.com>
Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 19:27:39 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 20:00:41 -0500
Subject: Re: Kenneth Arnold - Question


>From: Kari Valimaa <suomen.ufotutkijat@kolumbus.fi>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Kenneth Arnold - Question
>Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 19:21:07 +0200

>>Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 20:31:26 -0500
>>From: Gary Alevy <galevy@pipeline.com>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>Subject: Re: Kenneth Arnold - Question

>>I understand you are trying to be helpful however; what's the
>>point in posting the name misspelled and not giving a reference
>>specifically with pagination that can be verified?


>The make of Kenneth Arnold's airplane was misspelled by Jenny
>Randles in her book 'The Complete Book of UFOs, Judy Piatkus
>Ltd,  Revised edition 1997, page 72.


Kari,

Seems like 'The Complete Book of UFOs' might be a complete
source for many things except for its lack of fact checking and
correct spelling pertaining to the subject if such an elementary
item is incorrect.

Perhaps it's best to stick to the primary sources.

Gary





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 15

             Re: Official US Air Force 'Roswell Incident' Report

From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 20:29:12 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 20:03:17 -0500
Subject: Re: Official US Air Force 'Roswell Incident' Report


>Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 17:25:49 -0500
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Steven W. Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
>Subject: Re: Official US Air Force 'Roswell Incident' Report

>>Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 16:22:35 -0800
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>From: Neil Morris <neil@adm1.ph.man.ac.uk>
>>Subject: Re: Official US Air Force 'Roswell Incident' Report

><snip>

>>Of course some nice helpfull person may think to try and get the
>>Cc out of the archives under the FOIA?.


>Interesting post, and I agree that this needs to be researcher
>further.

>Is there any indication that a duplicate of the negatives was
>ever created and retained?  Since there was no "official"
>investigation ((that I'm aware of) following the announcement in
>Ramey's office, I'm not familiar with any evidence that was
>gathered and retained (other than the annecdotal references
>mentioned by Roswell witnesses).

>It is my understanding that the Air Force had a duplicate of the
>negative made in 1994 (or thereabouts) as part of their
>investigation in anticipation of the GAO probe, but it would
>have already sustained the damages mentioned.

>If we have reason to believe that a duplicate was made at the
>time, then we could make the request of the Archives.


My $25 CDROM ofthe many scans of the Ramey photo includes one of
my 20 year old print. No scratch on the fingernail.

Stan Friedman





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 15

                            Filer's Files #2-1999

From: Moderator, UFO UpDates - Toronto
Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 20:08:24 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 20:08:24 -0500
Subject: Filer's Files #2-1999




Source: http://ufoinfo.com/filer/1999/ff_9902.html

FILER'S FILES

Filer's Files #2-1999
MUFON Skywatch Investigations
George A. Filer: MUFON Eastern Director,
January 15, 1999
Majorstar@aol.com (609) 654-0020


Filer's Files: sponsored by Global Force Ltd

Dr. James E. McDonald, Professor of Atmospheric physics,
University of Arizona. 1967 stated in 1967. "I have absolutely
no idea where the UFO's come from or how they are operated, but
after ten years of research, I know they are something from
outside our atmosphere."

TWO NEW PLANETS FOUND THAT MAY HOST LIFE

A star within the Big Dipper, 47 Ursae Majoris is believed to
host a planet a little larger than Earth. It could have a warm
and watery surface ideal for life based on its orbit around the
star. New planets are being found almost monthly based on new
gravitational measurements and characteristic wobbles of the
stars. Another planet was found orbiting the star 70 Virginis,
in the Constellation Virgo. Unlike Earth, many newly found
planet orbit's are an elongated oval rather than a near-perfect
circle. Geoffrey Marcy of San Francisco State University notes
that nine of 17 extrasolar planets detected so far have such
eccentric orbits. The circular orbits exhibited by every planet
in our solar system may be more the exception than the rule,
Marcy and his colleagues suggest in a paper submitted to the
Astrophysical Journal. �Looking for Life.' The gravitational
effects of giant planets in elliptical orbits could sweep aside
smaller worlds, the researchers say. "This does represent a bit
of a wet blanket on the search for intelligence in the galaxy,"
Marcy said in Saturday's announcement. "The big bullies may wipe
clean the terrestrial planets in those planetary systems,
rendering them void of any Earth analogs." On the bright side,
Marcy says only about 5 percent of the stars in the Milky Way
appear to have close-in Jupiter-scale planets. "What we're
learning is that 95 percent of sunlike stars don't have these
wildly wacky Jupiter's in such close-in orbits, and I would say
that's quite good news for the SETI efforts." Thanks to AP by
Paul Recer.

NEW HAMPSHIRE FIREBALL

Greg St. Pierre reports January 10, 1999, Sunday was a strange
day for New Hampshire, my home state. At 5:50 a.m., a minor
earthquake was felt in southern NH and northern Massachusetts,
measuring about 2.7. An aftershock of about the same magnitude
occurred at 10:20 a.m. Tremors are rare in these parts, two on
the same day is unheard of. Also, the following story appeared
in the Monday�s edition of Manchester's Union Leader by Derek
Rose: 'Green flash' streaks through central NH sky. Bill Slatton
was driving home when he saw what looked to be a green fireball
streak across the night sky in Pittsfield yesterday. "My God,
this thing was as clear as day," he remembers thinking to
himself. "It was huge. It was right along side of us." His
fiancee, Kathy Bickford, saw it too. Police departments in Bow
and Northfield report sightings also, from callers describing a
"green flash" in the sky. Slatton said he and his fiancee saw
the fireball for a few seconds as they drove south on Route 28
in Pittsfield around 7:05 PM, yesterday. He said it was like the
fireball that crashes into the earth in a recent Dunkin Donuts
commercial. "It was descending almost like a plane descending.
It's hard to describe, it was just so awesome." James Ryan, a
professor of physics and space science at the University of New
Hampshire, didn't think the report was strange. "It could be a
meteorite," he said. "Estimates of how far away these things are
very unreliable." Thanks to Greg St. Pierre and John Thompson.
StrmNut@aol.com.

NEW JERSEY

TETERBORO AIRPORT-- Ann Marie Fondaciaio's reported to CAUS that
her husband had two recent UFO sightings. He was in the Special
forces in Vietnam and has worked as a ground crew chief for 32
years at the airport. He works with all kinds of private jets
and helicopters. His first experience occurred on December 15,
1998, at 5:30 AM at Teterboro Airport in Northern New Jersey.
The corporate airport is located about a five minute drive from
the George Washington Bridge that goes over the Hudson River
into New York City. My husband left his line shack and looked
towards the George Washington Bridge. He saw a huge row of
lights that were stacked together in two rows as long as the
bridge, flying very low and slow. It was coming out of a cloud
bank and made a long slow turn towards the bridge. The size of
it was as big as the whole span of the GWB. It was huge. It's
shape was a wedge with the corners rounded. You could feel the
ship move like a low grade vibration in the air, though it made
no sound. At this point another worker came up in back of my
husband and said, "Oh what is that?" My husband said "What ever
it is it's big" Now the ship started to head up the river
towards the Tappenzee Bridge. Then it went up into the clouds.
As the object was leaving, my husband heard a message in his
ear. It was not like a thought. "The unsettling ? in the Middle
East will end. The evil alchemist will die" Again on December 31
at about 10:15 AM same airport. My husband was in the line shack
again when he saw something that caught his eye in the sky. He
looked up and in the sky where there were clouds, but in a small
blue open patch of sky, he saw a glint of light. It came from
the Southeast, then turned to the northeast going towards the
George Washington Bridge. When he first saw it, it was moving
against air traffic and bobbing up and down going against the
wind. When it banked to the left and faced the sun, he could see
the sun shine off the top. When it banked the other way, the
bottom was a dull Grey. The tower saw it in their radar. The
tower said it was moving erratically in altitude between 8,000
and 10,000 feet. The tower radioed aircraft in the landing
pattern that they have an unidentified over the airport not
responding to any radio call. Divert from the left downwind
pattern to a right downwind pattern until we determine the
unidentified intentions. The ship was 20-30 feet in diameter.
About 16 people witnessed this including the tower people.
Thanks to Peter A. Gersten Dir. CAUS and http://caus.org and Ann
Marie Fondaciaio's--e.fonda@poconos-online.com.

LAKE PARSIPPANY MYSTERY: "Something plunged into Lake Parsippany
on Christmas Eve December 24, 1998, breaking a hole in the ice
75 feet across and blowing vegetation into the air." "Gifts were
delivered by morning, so it wasn't St. Nick buying the farm. Nor
were any meteor sightings reported, according to ION Weather
meteorologist Bill Cotter." The hole in the ice caught the
attention of Joe Strobel, who lives 150 feet away on a small
island in the lake. He told a friend about it on Christmas
morning." "'They were all ready to have me committed to
Greystone the local mental health facility.' said Strobel, a
nine-year resident. "Then they came over and they couldn't
explain it. One guy lived here for 35 years and said he's never
seen anything like that.'" "The green vegetation was blown into
the air and fell in a circle on the surrounding ice, drawing a
flock of hungry Canada geese. A thin sheet of ice has since
formed on the lake." Parsippany, NJ is located about 20
northwest of New York City." (See the Daily Record of Morris
County, NJ for 12/29/98, by Erik Engquist. Thanks to "Aiwass"
and UFO Roundup Vol. 4, #2 January 11, 1999 Editor: Joseph
Trainor

MICHIGAN

I am E-mailing to ask if any one of you had received reports or
heard talk of UFO sightings in the Saginaw-Bay area of Michigan
on Christmas Eve. Also, the Macomb/St.Claire Counties area
northeast of Detroit on Christmas night. I had a sighting of an
anomalous orangish light on December 24, 1998. An odd
unimpressive light flared on and off low in the eastern sky. I
received a sober-sounding message from a person in Macomb
County, Michigan concerning several lights in the southern sky
on Christmas night. The lights were apparently in sight by an
entire family for over two hours. The family seems to have a
history of UFO sightings as well as silent black helicopter
sightings. It should be noted that Selfridge ANGB near by. Let
me know if you'd like more information. Jeff Westover

OHIO

CINCINNATI-- Channel-9 News WCPO reports mysterious booms were
heard in areas near Butler County by Laura Randall on January
10, 1999. The situation involved explosive booms and thuds which
alarmed residents in parts of Fairfield, Ohio (18-miles north of
Cincinnati). An earlier newscast by WCPO reporters addressed the
numerous phone calls to police dispatch offices, stating that
the disruptions had been attributed to an underground phenomenon
known as 'ice heaving' or 'frost cracking.' This explanation was
reportedly offered by persons at The National Weather Service
office, located in Wilmington, Ohio. Interestingly, WCPO News in
this later report informed that a local geologist, University of
Cincinnati Professor Dr. Kenneth Hinkle, refuted the
'frost-cracking' theory and informed that such explanations were
not workable in this instance. "In the High Arctic,
frost-cracking resembles a sharp snap similar to a rifle report,
which can be felt," Hinkle stated for the newscast. The National
Weather Service believed that a combination heavy rain and rapid
freezing led to the mysterious sounds heard by alarmed
residents. Hinkle was curious, and after conducting an
investigation, added that frost-cracking was a most unlikely
explanation. Hinkle took a garden spade and put the
frost-cracking theory to the test, but found that the snow had
insulated the top-soil from the bitter cold. Hinkle demonstrated
that the sub-surface conditions were not condusive to
frost-cracking. Thanks to Kenny Young TASK.

ILLINOIS

Thanos Perros reports seeing a disk at 2:00 AM on January 1,
1999. The disc- shaped UFO landed and I ran inside to get my
camera it was gone. (708) 301-6787 12853 Parker Road, Lockport,
IL 60441. Editors Note: At this time he may have been
celebrating New Year's Eve, in any case his phone is now
disconnected, so we are unable to verify.

ALASKA

Warren Angel writes that on January 6, 1999, "My wife and I were
driving in Anchorage toward the Chugiach Mountain range and saw
what appeared to be a large "plane" (for lack of a better term)
launch straight up and then level off at a high rate of speed.
Thinking it was just our eye playing tricks on us, we dismissed
it. Since it happened Wednesday afternoon several people in
different parts of town witnessed the same thing. The trail was
immense. It almost reminded us of watching a shuttle launch.
Since the area it came out of is on military property, we
figured it's safe to say it's "one of ours".. As I said, the
trail was immense, like a shuttle launch. I kind of doubt it was
a UFO. However, it does suggest there might be other US space
projects going on around Arctic Valley. This thing was over 15
miles away and we could make out the general shape. It was
larger than a commercial airliner at approximately the same
distance. It was a silver, reflective triangle in the same kind
of shape as the new shuttle designs. It appeared that the trail
went from 2 streams to 4 as it hit an undeterminable altitude.
We watch the fighters out of Elmendorf all the time, this was
not an F-15 or anything we've seen before. And obviously others
felt the same (so far the count is 8 spread throughout the city)
as it caught their attentions as well. Thanks to: Warren Angel
warangel@geocities.com. Editors Note: This description fits
similar takeoffs of a powerful aircraft sometimes called the
Aurora.

IRELAND

DUBLIN--The Boston Herald, January 11, 1999, by Jim Dee. Last
year, 4,230,000 visitors descended on the Emerald Isle - Land of
a Thousand Welcomes - from the four corners of the Earth to
sample Ireland's legendary hospitality. Others - possibly from a
galaxy far, far, away hovered in the sky above without ever
landing, according to self-taught UFO expert Eamon Ansbro. A
former engineer and meteorologist, Ansbro, 48, has spent much of
the past decade trying to perfect a system of predicting when
and where alien spacecraft will arrive. Ansbro is convinced UFOs
will be hovering above Dublin at 5 a.m. on January 30. And in
February, he promised, they'll return to one of their favorite
haunts, the tiny town of Boyle, County Rosscommon. It's "a UFO
hotspot," he said. Ansbro can't explain exactly why Ireland is a
preferred extraterrestrial destination, but says possible
reasons range from the nation's political neutrality to its
Druidic past. After all, in a country renowned for its `Forty
Shades of Green' and a multitude of leprechauns, little green
men from outer space might fit in nicely. And then there's Irish
hospitality. "The one thing about the Irish is that they're open
to the new," Ansbro said. "Ireland isn't going to send up some
fleet of F-16s and blast UFOs out -- which has been done,
apparently, by the Americans" in the 1950s. Ansbro has
frequently been profiled in Irish newspapers and featured on
British and Irish TV and Irish radio in the last year. He
claimed he has identified "an automated surveillance" of Earth,
regularly conducted by "a large craft, say at 80 to 90 thousand
feet, that somehow is camouflaged." The craft periodically
ejects UFOs to orbit and scan the Earth below, he believes.
Ansbro thinks alien craft use Ireland's abundant stone-age rock
monuments, known as Megalithic tombs, as "vortexial energy
points" - navigational beacons - to maintain their bearings. He
produces a map outlining common alien touring routes around
Earth. Eighty percent of them pass over Megalithic tombs.

GEORGIA HAINT'S INTRUDERS

John Thompson writes: I was talking to an ex-MUFON member in
LaGrange today and he related an interesting account of INTs to
me. He said a dog was barking and jumping on a bed trying to get
at an "haint" and everybody in the witness's family was having
bad dreams of same type until they did some demon bashing with
the help of God. That was several months ago and the family he
talked to say the haints instantly disappeared; thus, confirming
the Florida folks and what my own limited investigations into
this matter have shown. Over 90 percent of this business is
dimensional stuff and why there is never, never any physical
proof. I think despite all of the Air Force's critics, Project
Bluebook had it about right: 6-7% of UFOs are unexplainable.
Actually looking at their unsolvables, I think I could have
solved some of them and this would bring it down to 4 or-5 %.
Thanks to John Thompson.

TERRORIST RETALIATION?

The US has struck at targets in Iraq, Libya, Yugoslavia, in
recent years. These countries have no chance of attacking us
with standard modern military weapons of war. Therefore it is
likely they will attack with terrorist actions. Some of the most
vulnerable targets are commercial aircraft and large buildings
as targets. In a related story by Ian Williams Goddard (c)1999.
(The Orwellian Nightmare) One of the more disturbing issues
surrounding the TWA Flight 800 crash has been the claims made by
some people that on the night of the crash they saw reports on
TV that confirmed a missile hit, yet the reports apparently
disappeared into an Orwellian black hole. NOW a news cameraman
has spilled-the-beans on one of these disappeared TV reports,
indicating that what people have been saying they saw on TV
really was on TV. People have claimed they saw an interview
right after the crash of an Air National Guard pilot as he stood
on a tarmac in front of an aircraft where the pilot said the jet
was hit with a missile and that Navy-missile exercises were
being conducted at the time. Consistent with such an interview,
the Long Island paper Suffolk Life reports [1]: "Long Island's
Channel 55 cameraman James Hughes, said during an interview that
he and another camera crew from one of the networks were at the
airport when the C130 landed. The crew, he said, stated they saw
a missile heading toward FL 800 just before they witnessed the
explosion. The C130 crew members were pulled away from the two
camera crews by what Hughes said appeared to be their superiors
and came back claiming they had seen nothing." This not only
confirms TV-witness accounts of a truth-leaking interview of a
pilot at an airport, but it also clearly indicates that the
truth was known that night and, with the immediate censure of
the pilots, it also reveals that a massive cover-up was
activated immediately, which must explain why the media forgot
about that explosive interview. (The C-130 was piloted by Col.
William Stratemeier. Major Frederick Meyer, who said he saw a
meteor-like streak, piloted an HH-60 helicopter. After retiring
from the ANG, Meyer said that the first blast looked like "the
detonation of an antiaircraft shell." We can speculate
terrorists were at work. When our Navy hit an Iranian commercial
aircraft with a missile we immediately announced that the ship
had fired thinking the aircraft was attacking.

THE SUDDEN DISAPPEARANCE OF UFOs AT CHRISTMAS

Dana Schmidt, MUFON State Director writes As to UFOs Suddenly
Disappear, you do not state the necessary conclusion: If
misidentifications should also continue through the holidays but
do not, then the lack of ANY UFOs must be attributed to people
being distracted from "Looking to the skies," and NOT, that UFOs
are on holiday. Why aliens should care about our holidays is
beyond me, just as much as why anyone (and folks have suggested
this to me) would think UFOs would be more likely to be active
at the turn of a century or millennium, as if our calendar meant
anything to anyone else but the Christian world. As to the Iraq
triangles noted in Desert Fox, I am surprised at your statement
without comment that the CNN reports infer that might have been
a "holographic projection" by our armed forces. Forget it --
that is science fiction, and we need to label it as such. The
art is not NEAR advanced enough to do that. The last thing we
need to do is encourage the skeptics to pounce on ridiculous
explanations. Never mind it was CNN who "inferred" it. We need
to call a spade a spade, or in this case, science fiction,
science fiction. Editor's Note: It is likely that we are
launching some type of decoy to draw antiaircraft fire. Lights
or flares mounted on balloons or unpiloted aircraft to explain
the triangular aircraft observed over Bagdad.

MAJESTIC 12 DOCUMENTS

Dr. Richard F. Haines writes: "Having looked at the publication
still under investigation (headed by Dr. R. Wood and his son
Ryan), I am more and more coming to the conclusion (yet still
tentative) that these Majestic documents are authentic. Of
course the burden of proof lies with the debunkers, since the
documents are claimed to be authentic and not vice versa. I have
seen almost no credible forensic work to date published on the
debunker's side of this matter. As you and others have pointed
out so clearly, the implications to our nation and the world of
these documents (if verified) are enormous indeed. It is more
than curious (and interesting) that they were leaked just before
the new millennium! Finally, you may like to know that my book
"Close Encounters of the Fifth Kind" (CE-5) has now been
released by Sourcebooks, Inc., and is available at all major
bookstores. I attempted to analyze the data set fairly
rigorously and from the standpoint of seeking evidence for
intelligence behind the UFO phenomenon. Thanks to Dick Haines
dhaines@mail.arc.nasa.gov

NOSTRADAMOUS PREDICTS A KING WILL COME:

Ufo Contat writes Nostradamus predicted that in July of 1999, a
King will come from the sky. "In the year 1999 and seven months,
From the skies shall come an alarmingly powerful king, To raise
again the great King of the Jacquerie, Before and after, Mars
shall reign at will." The actual writing in French: "L'an mil
neuf cens nonante neuf sept mois, Du ciel viendra un grand Roy
d'effayeur, Resusciter le grand Roy d'Angolmois, Avant apres,
Mars regner par bon heur." The commentary that accompanies my
translation reads as follows: "A tremendous world revolution is
foretold to take place in the year 1999, with a complete
upheaval of existing social orders, preceded by World-Wide wars.
Nostradamus shows his mystic knowledge of the great secret of
the book of revelations and solves for us the identity of the
"Beast of the Apocalypse" and the time of his arrival which John
of Patmos (Rev. 13:18) records "Here is wisdom. Let him that
hath understanding count the number of the Beast: for it is the
number of a man; and his number is 666." By a simple reversal of
the numbers and turning 999 upside down we obtain 666. Also in
agreement with the prophetic vision of H. G. Wells and other
gifted History and Science-Fiction writers, Nostradamus actually
ties in the date 1999 when "from the skies shall come an
invasion . . . and Mars shall reign at will." Time alone will
tell whether this is "War of the Worlds" is to be accepted
literally or metaphorically. Thanks to Ufo contact.

GET THE BEST AND HELP UFO RESEARCH, IT COULD SAVE YOU MONEY

As a special aid to our readers, we can help you obtain the best
real estate experts in your area at no cost to you. Make sure
you have a top notch agent, to buy or sell your home often your
biggest investment. We provide free relocation information and
consulting services from the largest and most respected firms.
If you are planning to sell or buy a home and would like a top
flight real estate agent give me a call at 609 654-0020 or
E-mail me at Majorstar@aol.com. Please send your name, phone
number, address, price range and location to move.

MUFON JOURNAL For more detailed investigative reports subscribe
by writing to 103 Oldtowne Road, Sequin, TX 78155-4099 or E-mail
Mufon@aol.com.

Filer's Files Copyright 1998 by George A. Filer, all rights
reserved. Readers may post items from the Files on their
Websites provided that they credit the newsletter and its editor
by name and list the date of issue that the item appeared.

Send your letters to George Filer at Majorstar@aol.com. If you
wish to keep your name confidential please so state.

http://ufoinfo.com/filer/1999/ff_9902.html








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 16

                                  RPIT Test

From: John W. Ratcliff <jratcliff@worldnet.att.net>
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 19:35:07 -0600
Fwd Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 01:18:05 -0500
Subject: RPIT Test



Quick comment.  I've been more than slightly skeptical of the
whole Roswell Photo Interpretation team hyperbole.  Of course,
the idea is kind of fun, especially reports of memos offering
tantalizing details, a time capsule of the great mythological
'first coming'.

In the past I found it rather hysterical that the rhetoric from
James Bond Johnson included statements like "can clearly be
seen", in reference to blobs, blurs, and splotches. Most of his
proffered evidence has compelled me to offer Mr. Johnson a gift
certificate to Lenscrafters.

So, in that light, I tried a little experiment with the recent
image attachment which purported to include the eerie statement
about "the victims."  All I saw when I downloaded the image at
first, were the murder mystery letters cut-out.  With a great
deal of squinting I finally managed to imagine that there was in

fact a vague correlation between the two.

I then had my boss come into my office, and covered up
everything but the smudgecicles.  I asked him, cold, "What does
that say?"  He took a few seconds and then read the first half
of the sentence exactly!

I worthwhile experiment, I was surprised at the results.  I
guess the USAF is going to have to redress that whole "victims"
issue in their next report, due 50 years hence. <g>






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 16

                       Re: Military Retirees & Secrecy

From: Angela Shilling <ashill@visitations.com>
Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 17:55:11 -0800
Fwd Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 01:33:13 -0500
Subject: Re: Military Retirees & Secrecy



>From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
>Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 17:50:20 +0000
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Military Retirees & Secrecy

>It does seem that after 30 years, someone might feel
>they could let their guard down. But then again, without proof
>what are they going to say?

Exactly!  These people still have to live and work in a society
that shuns the UFO topic.  I would venture to say that it's not
just the Oaths that prevent these people from saying anything.
It is the repercussions from society they are concerned about.
Without proof they come out looking like fools and that's
something they can't afford.

Angela Shilling
angela@visitations.com
#Visitations on the Undernet, Channel Co-Manager





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 16

                          Re: UFO Sighting in Italy

From: Fabrizio Monaco <F.Monaco@stm.it>
Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 00:43:01 +0100
Fwd Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 01:15:13 -0500
Subject: Re: UFO Sighting in Italy


What do the letters CISETI stand for?


The full name of my organization is "Comitato Internazionale per
lo Studio delle Intelligenze Extraterrestri", the English
translation is "International Commitee for the Study of
Extraterrestrial Intelligence". We called it CISETI just for
make it not so difficult...

Best Regards,
Fabrizio Monaco
CISETI International Coordinator







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 16

                        Re: Watch for my coming hoax!

From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 21:01:05 EST
Fwd Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 01:41:13 -0500
Subject: Re: Watch for my coming hoax!


>>From: Michael Edelman <mje@mich.com>
>>Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
>>Subject: Watch for my coming hoax!
>>Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 12:39:37 -0500
>>Organization: Wayne State University

>>Fellow aliens, spooks, paranoids (you know who you
>>are) and schitzophrenics:

>>I am just about ready to launch my massive saucer
>>hoax on the nation, and I'm giving you advance
>>warning. I do so so (1) you'll know it's a hoax
>>and (2) to prove that it can work even if I
>>disclose it's a hoax in advance.

>>Watch for it!

>Hello EBK and list.

>I'm interested in knowing whether or not anyone in the mental
>health field has ever done a study of the psychology of UFO
>hoaxers? It certainly would be a worthy area of study within
>ufology.

Jeffrey S. Westover
Mt Pleasant, Michigan


Jean van Gemert, Brian Zeiler, and I had a number of run-ins
with Michael Edelman over on Usenet groups like
alt.alien.visitors and alt.paranet.ufo. There were numerous
instances of where Edelman simply invented his "facts" on the
fly. Or to put it more bluntly, the man was a flagrant liar.
I supposed that gives him the necessary qualifications to be a
UFO hoaxer.

Here are a few examples of his lying. At one point we were
discussing Blue Book Special Report #14, the massive statistical
Battelle Institute study of UFO cases for the Air Force. As I
recall, Edelman first claimed that BBSR#14 was called Blue Book
because it was nothing more than publication of a saucer fan
magazine. Later he said it was the comparison of alien faces
from different witnesses. He also claimed to have read it as a
teenager in some 1960's paperback. We continually pushed him to
name the book, since none of us had ever heard of it. Eventually
he claimed to have finally found the book, but again when pushed
could produce no name or author. Then he said he would provide
the information if we sent him $50.

I hope this gives you a general picture. Jean van Gemert can
back me up on this. Or you can go to Deja News archives and look
up Edelman's posts for yourself. Have the barf bag close at
hand.

Edelman isn't alone, as I have seen a number of other debunkers
who also resort regularly to deliberate lying. Many of them are
also obnoxious or verbally abusive in the extreme. (Any names
leap immediately to mind?)

Ironically, like many debunkers, Edelman also claims to have a
scientific background and decries ufology as completely
unscientific. Since when is compulsive lying to make your case
"scientific"?

There is definitely some sort of debunker psychopathology at
work here worthy of at least a PhD thesis or two. Maybe the
doctor dropped them all on their heads when they were born.

David Rudiak





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 16

                   Chat with Mark Hall, British Ufologist

From: Yvonne Hedenland <vonni_h@email.msn.com>
Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 20:35:51 -0600
Fwd Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 01:45:46 -0500
Subject: Chat with Mark Hall, British Ufologist


MJ-12 CHAT

Mark Hall, British UFOlogist, is a resident of the North East Of
England. He is a member of the UFO organizations CSETI and the
small British organization UfoStudies based near Newcastle.

Mr. Hall has accumulated a massive database of UFO material
including hundreds of government documents and has undertaken an
extensive study of the sensational, newly released MJ-12
information.

Join Mr. Hall and the Politics of UFOs Staff Sunday, January 17,
1999, 6 PM Pacific Time.

This chat is available at  http://communities.msn.com/ufo The
Briefing Room chat can be accessed by any IRC client. The chat
server name is publicchat.msn.com and the room or channel name
is #briefing.






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 16

             Circles Phenomenon Research Canada Update 01-15-99

From: Paul Anderson <psa@direct.ca>
Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 19:15:43 -0800
Fwd Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 01:54:46 -0500
Subject: Circles Phenomenon Research Canada Update 01-15-99


Circles Phenomenon Research Canada Update
January 15, 1999

_____________________________

NEW COORDINATOR FOR SASKATCHEWAN
CPR-Canada welcomes Jeff Rudichuk, who has an extensive
background in video production, broadcasting, photography and
computer network analysis

OVER 100 ICE / SNOW CIRCLES REPORTED IN GERMANY
Link to report on FGK web site in Germany (most of the report is
currently still in German only, but some good photos available)

OLIVER'S CASTLE VIDEO HOAX CONFESSION:
A STATEMENT FROM COLIN ANDREWS
Report from Colin Andrews, who has a videotaped confession by
John Wabe as to how and why he did it
____________________________

See News and Reports web site link
below for full reports
____________________________

Main Web Site:
www.geocities.com/Area51/Cavern/3310

News and Reports:
www.geocities.com/Area51/Cavern/3310/news

Crop Circle Reports in Canada 1999:
www.geocities.com/Area51/Cavern/3310/1999
_____________________________

To be added to or removed from this mailing list,
send your request and e-mail to:
psa@direct.ca
____________________________

For further information or correspondence, contact:





Paul Anderson

Director
CIRCLES PHENOMENON RESEARCH CANADA
Affiliate of Circles Phenomenon Research International
Main Web Site:  www.geocities.com/Area51/Cavern/3310
1998 Updates:  www.geocities.com/Area51/Cavern/3310/1998

Director
THE MILLENNIUM PROJECT
Web:  mypage.direct.ca/p/psa/ (under revision)

Representative
BLT RESEARCH, INC.

Suite 202 - 2086 West 2nd Avenue, Vancouver, BC  V6J 1J4
Tel / Fax:  604.731.8522
E-Mail:  psa@direct.ca







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 16

                     Re: Art Bell - Friday, January 8/9

From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net>
Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 00:34:51 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 02:35:07 -0500
Subject: Re: Art Bell - Friday, January 8/9


>From: Scott Ribordy <sdr@ns.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Art Bell - Friday, January 8/9
>Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 03:36:50 GMT


>That's my whole point. There is no harm. I think Art Bell, John
>Velez, Budd Hopkins, etc. should all be free to say what ever
>they think is of interest to their audience without fear of
>"paying a price" (as long as there is no _intent_ to cause
>harm). The notion that Art Bell is responsible (even partly) for
>the Heaven's Gate suicides is ludicrous.

><snip>

>>"Meme" --
>>biological term. An element of a culture or system of behavior
>>that may be consider to be passed from one individual to another
>>by non-genetic means, especially imitation." Nice swipe, Mr. R.
>>Now prove it.)

>I think the definition fits nicely. Thanks for including it. Do
>you have a specific disagreement with it?

None at all, Scott. I think I misunderstood you, and I'm sorry.
I thought you were suggesting -- as many have in fact declared
with no proof at all -- that the abduction phenomenon is spread
by cultural contagion. I thought your use of "meme" implied
that, and I was complimenting you on your deft use of language,
while asking you to prove the point I thought you were making.
Silly of me, if you really weren't saying what I thought, and I
apologize.

Greg Sandow






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 16

                             Re: Fox TV Special

From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net>
Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 00:41:40 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 02:39:25 -0500
Subject: Re: Fox TV Special


>Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 18:48:52 -0600
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Michael Christol <mchristo@mindspring.com>
>Subject: Re: Fox TV Special

>>I have to admit I have little respect for the analysis you
>>quoted, Michael, for all the reasons I stated. My opinion of
>>Meier has nothing to do with that. I hope I'm an objective
>>student of ufology, but I can't throw away all my professional
>>knowledge of sound and music just to give the Meier case (or any
>>other one) a chance.

>Yet again Greg you are basing your bias on what I typed. I again
>call for you to just take the time to view the CONTACT video
>tape and then you and I can talk from a somewhat level playing
>field... I respect your right to your opinion...but an opinion
>which is formed on partial information, is incomplete. <G>

For the last time, Michael, and this is very frustrating....

I'm not talking about the Contact video, on which I have no
opinion.

You quoted an analysis of the sound heard on it. Your quote was
quite long. I commented on what you quoted. If there's something
else in the video that you think I would like better, please
type it out, as you did your last quote, so I can know what it
is.

I'm most definitely not required to spend time and money to view
something just because you're interested in it. If you didn't
convince me to be interested, that's your problem, not mine. I
have absolutely no bias one way or another; I just read what you
quoted.

I have only so much time to spend on UFOs, and I try to spend on
the things that both interest me, and make the most sense. The
Contact video hasn't yet become one of them -- which by the way
is _not_ meant as a rejection of it. Life is short, Michael. I
don't know Mahler's 7th symphony as well as I know his others, I
haven't read William Faulkner, I haven't seen the Jackson
Pollock exhibit at the Museum of Modern Art here in New York, I
haven't talked to my friend Jesse for three weeks, I haven't
heard the recent PJ Harvey album, I don't know much about the
Russian economic collapse, and I haven't tried two new
restaurants that recently opened in my neighborhood.

Maybe one of my friends will tell me I ought to read Faulkner,
quoting me some passage they love from one of his novels. Maybe
the passage won't impress me, and I'll say, "You know, I don't
like that very much." That doesn't mean I think Faulkner is a
terrible writer. It just means that my friend hasn't convinced
me to give Faulkner as high a priority as she does.

That's all that's happening here, Michael. You may think the
Contact video is very important, and maybe it is, but you
haven't convinced me. If you want me to watch it, give me better
reasons -- and, for God's sake, stop thinking this has anything
to do with any discussion of Meier you've read on this list or
anywhere else.

Greg Sandow






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 16

                     Re: Art Bell - Friday, January 8/9

From: John Rimmer <magonia@magonia.demon.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 10:04:57 +0000
Fwd Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 11:31:39 -0500
Subject: Re: Art Bell - Friday, January 8/9


>From: Scott Ribordy <sdr@ns.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: Art Bell - Friday, January 8/9
>Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 03:36:50 GMT

>>From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>Subject: Re: Art Bell - Friday, January 8/9
>>Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 18:33:51 -0500

>>>From: Scott Ribordy <sdr@ns.net>
>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>>Subject: Re: Art Bell - Friday, January 8/9
>>>Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 04:15:29 GMT

>>>Do you feel that you or Mr. Hopkins should "pay a price" for
>>>propagating the alien abduction meme and all the associated harm
>>>that it causes?

>>What harm would that be? Please give details, with supporting
>>evidence.

To see the harm that these abduction so-called researchers are
doing I suggest you read Kevin McClures 'Abduction Watch', which
is archived on the Magonia web-site - address below. There's
plenty of evidence there.

--
John Rimmer
Magonia Magazine
www.magonia.demon.co.uk






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 16

                       Re: Military Retirees & Secrecy

From: John Rimmer <magonia@magonia.demon.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 11:12:44 +0000
Fwd Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 11:34:40 -0500
Subject: Re: Military Retirees & Secrecy


>Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 17:55:11 -0800
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Angela Shilling <ashill@visitations.com>
>Subject: Re: Military Retirees & Secrecy

>>From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
>>Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 17:50:20 +0000
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>Subject: Military Retirees & Secrecy

>>It does seem that after 30 years, someone might feel
>>they could let their guard down. But then again, without proof
>>what are they going to say?

>Exactly!  These people still have to live and work in a society
>that shuns the UFO topic.

With the massive degree of media promotion, books, magazines, TV
programmes ("factual" and fictional), a huge amount of
web-space, newspapers features, videos, etc., etc., etc. devoted
to a largely uncritical view of ufology, how can you claim that
this is "a society that shuns the UFO topic"? This is a society
that laps it up. Many postings on this List are of newspaper and
magazine articles reporting surveys that purport to show that a
very high percentage of the general population believes that
"UFOs are real".

The fact is that people claiming some special insight or direct
experience of an extraterrestrial UFO phenomenon are not shunned
- often they are give very large advances on book contracts.
It's the wicked old sceptics who are shunned. Who gets more
money for a book, Klass or Strieber? Even the more rational
ufologists get a raw deal - I suspect Tim Good's bank balance is
a lot healthier than Jerome Clark's! But then Jerry doesn't
spread a "gee-whiz, I'll believe anything" line so he's a lot
less marketable in this allegedly UFO-shunning society. If only!

--
John Rimmer
Magonia Magazine, a division of the P.L.A. Driftwood International Cartel
www.magonia.demon.co.uk





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 16

                   Re: UFO Cults - A research question...

From: Lawrie Williams <nemesis@fastinternet.net.au>
Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 21:53:21 +1000
Fwd Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 11:37:31 -0500
Subject: Re: UFO Cults - A research question...


>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
>Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 22:52:31 -0500Fwd Date: Tue, 12
>Jan 1999 10:35:46 -0500
>Subject: Re: UFO Cults - A research question...

>It would seem to me that anyone who takes seriously the idea
>(fact) of UFO reality >also has to seriously consider the
>possibility (probability) that >Other Intelligences (OI),
>whether ETs or time travelers or whatever,

>1) created humans
>2) have watched human development
>3) have affected human history a number of times by
>   doing things outside the norm of human ability
>4) have given rise to what we call "religious history"

A nice analysis!

Modifying the above, consider the possibility that _all_ of the
others

1) co-evolved with humans throughout the galaxy/cosmos(?)
2) compete with humans for a perch on the rungs above us
3) in this remote region we live below and cop the droppings
4) evangelical Others from elsewhere are sneaking us some help
5) there is no Grand Scheme, its ecology and xeno-sociology and
   we'll to comprehend the dynamic equilibrium to understand.

That is how I have come to see it based on the picture "they"
_appear_ to have offered me. (All disclaimers apply.)

Ever so humbly yours,


Lawrie Williams____who wishes he could thank everyone for the
              absolute flood of responses to his BZ and DEH postings









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 16

             Re: Official US Air Force 'Roswell Incident' Report

From: "Steven W. Kaeser" <steve@konsulting.com>
Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 06:50:40 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 11:39:31 -0500
Subject: Re: Official US Air Force 'Roswell Incident' Report


>From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
>Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 17:24:44 +0000
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Official US Air Force 'Roswell Incident' Report

<snip>

>Hi Steven,

>Perhaps I misread Neil's post, but wasn't he talking about
>getting a "Cc" of the original Ramey message? I did not get the
>impression that Neil was talking about a duplicate negative. As
>I said, I may be mistaken. Did I get it wrong, Neil?


Roger and Neil -

You're probably right. It's that damned language barrier when
I'm trying to translate English to english. . . . .<g>

Of course, if the memo mentions "victems" as alleged, then it
would likely have become destroyed, rather than filed.

Steve






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 16

                             Re: Fox TV Special

From: Kelly Tyson <RCTyson@webtv.net>
Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 06:07:49 -0600 (CST)
Fwd Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 11:42:38 -0500
Subject: Re: Fox TV Special


I don't mean to sound rude,but perhaps you guys can give what
appears to be personal vendettas a rest. Especially in this
public forum. You don't seem to,or even want to,understand each
others point. Maybe you should drop the endless sniping and
really try to resolve this dispute or just give it up.Sometimes
two people can't see eye to eye no matter how many times you
try.

In the interest of respectful enlightenment,

RCTyson@webtv.net






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 16

                            Alfred's Odd Ode #289

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 06:11:21 -0600
Fwd Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 11:45:38 -0500
Subject: Alfred's Odd Ode #289


Apology to MW #289 (For January 16, 1999)

Come on up -- I'll fill your bucket, and I'll give you much to
chew when I show you what's around to be assessed.  At first a
little scary, when the ground begins to quake, but the shakedown
is deliverance to discover that you're blessed! You'll have what
keeps your button pushed -- have everything you need, a place to
study facts you lack to bring you up to speed. A place to lay a
tired brow that's clean and smells just right. An engagement of
your faculties that's yours alone -- no need to fight. . .It's
an unpolluted meadow, or a river rife with fish. It's finding
there are _other_ ways to be successful -- rich. It's receiving
due respect from those you work to keep _afloat_. It's not
suffering their sneers, derision -- or failing while they gloat.

Happy satisfaction (?) or despair in their distraction as they
milk your very _glands_ for what they have.  And you'll do
without a piss break, so you won't have much to drink, and your
wounds will see no medicine or salve.  While they short you on
the front end -- your *specific* contract pay, they will short
you on the back end to erode your health away. But fan detested
gonads (!), then, to sell their toxic soap, decrying sex (which
happens!) as the _wage_ of Satan's joke. And _them_ the ones so
teasing (!), as they rub it in your face! And them the ones
you're pleasing when you give in to disgrace! It's why we're
taught to keep sex _dirty_ -- a forbidden price is _high_. If
sex was honored . . . natural (?) -- the _price_ goes down, is
why <g>.

Their tease regarding UFOs is wall to wall TV! They're in our
papers/magazines -- displayed for you to _see_. Festooned with
woo-woo music, and a digitized effect, we're jerked beyond
credulity, so the facts will lose respect. The mainstream keeps
it's distance, and the NASA  stays aloof! They won't go on the
Jeff Rense Show! They won't _discuss_ the truth. They're not
open and forthcoming, and it's said they might conspire with the
forces of *convenience* that may keep us from our hearts desire!

It could _mean_ that we're autonomous, and too strong to be
assailed -- on the lip of newer wonders that some *Starfolk*
might detail.  It could _simply_ mean there's starfolk, and a
lot of them out *there*. We discounted Drake's equation (when we
_could not take_ the number's dare)!  Let sleeping dogs alone,
we whined (but out of mean convenience). Our lives we've based
on futures that _exclude_ our craft and genius . We make our
strained assumptions putting castles in the air, and deny the
watching Starfolk that have always hovered there.  From time
gone unrecorded they have been in human skies. Have they made
their long recording of _our_ litany of lies? They'll play it
for us soon, perhaps, then wait for _your_ denial. When crying's
done we'll find, I'll bet, absolution's clean and final. The
future that we plan is surly gone, I am assured, but the future
that replaces it is bigger, grander -- pure.

The future that's portended will be seen and _not_ pretended,
and the satisfaction gained will awe inspire! We will live
beyond pretensions, and ignore our class distinctions as we
build on firmer ground than what's now _known_ to be conspired!
We will build upon new ethics in a wealth of new eclectics that
we knew not were abundant in our fog. And we'll find that our
behavior's more inclusive -- it's our SAVIOR, while =E9litists see
their error in the past, and all along. C'mon up and fill your
bucket with the facts you haven't chewed yet, and don't worry
that it tastes a lot like crow -- it may taste a little worse
before you finish what needs chewing, but then tasting, far, far
better than you know!

Lehmberg@snowhill.com

Restore John Ford!

--
Explore the Alien View!
Ponder the Wit & Wisdom of Ching Chow!

http://www.fortunecity.com/roswell/arecibo/46/

<Updated 8 January>

John Ford Restoration Fund -- Send your checks and
money orders to _me_, Alfred Lehmberg
(cut out the lawyers, they got their's) at:
304 Melbourne Drive, Enterprise AL, 36330. Strict records kept.

"Only thin, _very light_ envelopes with a return address will be
accepted <g>." ~~~ $225.00 pledged -- $125.00 collected ~~~

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see from
afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, while burning at the
fundamentalist's stake.






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 16

                                Re: RPIT Test

From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net>
Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 05:49:09 -0800
Fwd Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 12:17:03 -0500
Subject: Re: RPIT Test


>From: John W. Ratcliff <jratcliff@worldnet.att.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: RPIT Test
>Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 19:35:07 -0600

<snip>

>Quick comment. I've been more than slightly skeptical of the
>whole Roswell Photo Interpretation team hyperbole. Of course,
>the idea is kind of fun, especially reports of memos offering
>tantalizing details, a time capsule of the great mythological
>'first coming'.

>In the past I found it rather hysterical that the rhetoric from
>James Bond Johnson included statements like "can clearly be
>seen", in reference to blobs, blurs, and splotches. Most of his
>proffered evidence has compelled me to offer Mr. Johnson a gift
>certificate to Lenscrafters.

I had to laugh at one line in your messagew, the one referring
to Lenscrafters!

I am not referring to J. B. Johnson in particular, but to any
number of people who see the most intricate structures in what
looks to me like a pile of rocks or the like.

I do not have poor eyesight. I do wear reading glasses now
that I'm (well) past age 40, when I started using them.

Over and over we are asked to look at pictures of "obviously
artificial" structures when the only thing obvious is wishful
thinking on the part of the originator.

"Psychological projection" is too much of a buzzword for my
tastes ( tonight at least ) .. so I just call it wishful
thinking.

Its a bit like the time I saw a missing loved one everywhere I
looked some years ago. Disappointing.

My eyesight was fine. I didn't need Lenscrafters, I needed a
bite out of the reality sandwich .. I needed
Objectivitycrafters.

Anyone who wants pyramids on Mars will find them.  If they want
the BVM ( Holy Virgin ) to appear bad enough, She will oblige
them. Monsters are a dime a dozen.

The next time someone touts some rock pile or humus heap as a
railway line on the moon ( or Mars or ..... ) I suggest that
there are any number of good double-blind tests that may be
applied. This is way out of my turf, but there are plenty
of others who know how to design such experiments.

I've lost count of how many slow loading .jpegs and .gifs I have
wasted time on, only to find cracks in a dry lake bed, impact
debris, erosive features and other perfectly natural nearly
rectilinear extra-geological artifacts of nature alone.

If some alien presence is elusive, hidden or camouflaged on
Earth, is it likely "they" would put up the equivalent of a
neon sign within the range of telescopes or interplanetary
probes?

I think not.

Best regards

- Larry Hatch

= = = = =





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 16

             Re: Official US Air Force 'Roswell Incident' Report

From: Bob Shell <bob@bobshell.com>
Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 08:30:36 +0000
Fwd Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 12:12:29 -0500
Subject: Re: Official US Air Force 'Roswell Incident' Report


>Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 17:25:49 -0500
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Steven W. Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
>Subject: Re: Official US Air Force 'Roswell Incident' Report

>>Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 16:22:35 -0800
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>From: Neil Morris <neil@adm1.ph.man.ac.uk>
>>Subject: Re: Official US Air Force 'Roswell Incident' Report

><snip>

>>Of course some nice helpfull person may think to try and get the
>>Cc out of the archives under the FOIA?.

<snip>

>It is my understanding that the Air Force had a duplicate of the
>negative made in 1994 (or thereabouts) as part of their
>investigation in anticipation of the GAO probe, but it would
>have already sustained the damages mentioned.

>If we have reason to believe that a duplicate was made at the
>time, then we could make the request of the Archives.


Steve,

Either you are misinterpreting Neil's post or I am.  I thought
he was talking about trying to get a copy of the _telegram_ via
FOIA, not a copy of the negative.  Even the best copy negative
would have less information than the original, even in its
present state.  But if the telegram was filed after the event, a
copy of it may well exist in some file.

Bob






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 16

                       Re: Military Retirees & Secrecy

From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 09:13:13 EST
Fwd Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 12:22:55 -0500
Subject: Re: Military Retirees & Secrecy


>Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 16:46:28 -0600
>From: Dave Vetterick <veterick@ix.netcom.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: Military Retirees & Secrecy

>>Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 23:32:40 -0800
>>From: Judith Dale <judithdale@earthlink.net>
>>To: UFO UpDates-Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>Subject: Military Retirees & Secrecy

>>I have been following the recent discussion regarding the
>>consequences that might occur if a retired military person was
>>to break their secrecy agreement.

<snip>

>The key thing missing here is..What is the basis for the fear?

>He wouldn't be revealing any secrets, just explaining what he
>was told would be the consequences if he talked, and who told
>him this causing him to think it was credible?

Actually, in some cases, merely telling people that there was an
oath would be revealing a secret.

>From there you can eliminate it as a justifiable fear, and then
>make all sorts of arguments as to why he should talk.

The real problem, as I see it, isn't that the witness is afraid
to talk but believes that revealing specific information would
be a violation of the oath taken forty or fifty years ago. They
don't talk about it because they were told not to talk about it.
They are, for the most part, honorable people who made a promise
that they want to keep.

Edwin Easley, the Roswell Provost Marshal, said that he had
promised the President that he wouldn't talk and he wasn't going
to talk. He always seemed caught in the middle, wanting to help,
but believing that he was under an obligation not to tell. He
offered what he could in the way of information without opening
violating the oath.

It wasn't fear that motivated him but his sense of honor. This
is something that we just don't consider.

>Start with the fact that even the military can't legally
>threaten bodily harm or death without due process. It's almost
>impossible to serve up the death penalty even to convicted mass
>murderers much less for violating a 30 year old oath.

Most of the military people I know signed agreements when they
left the service suggesting they would not reveal what they knew
for five, ten or twelve years. The longest I ever heard about
was twenty years. By that time, it was believed that any special
knowledge would have been rendered obsolete because of time.

These would have been special circumstances, and the rules might
have changed for them.

The real point, however, is that it is not fear that keeps the
people from revealing all, but a belief that a promise is a
promise.






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 16

               'The Truth Is Out There & Joe Firmage Is Paying

From: Stig Agermose <Stig_Agermose@online.pol.dk>
Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 06:18:32 +0100
Fwd Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 02:26:18 -0500
Subject: 'The Truth Is Out There & Joe Firmage Is Paying


[List only]

Source: The Industry Standard,

http://www.thestandard.net/articles/display/0,1449,3177,00.html

Very thorough article with many details that haven't been supplied by
other media.

Stig

***

January 15, 1999=BF=BF

THE TRUTH IS OUT THERE and Joe Firmage is Paying for It

By Laura Rich

**

You can tell the story of Joe Firmage a number of ways: He's a
saint, he's a wacko, or he's just a rich guy with good
intentions and questionable means.

Firmage, 28, is the former CEO of Internet start-up USWeb, the
successful interactive agency that made headlines in September
1998, when it was announced that USWeb would merge with CKS to
form Reinvent. One month later, Firmage himself made headlines,
when his involvement in a project he calls "Kairos" was revealed
and he stepped down as USWeb's CEO. On Jan. 8, 1999, he resigned
from the company completely, after the press had taken the
Kairos story and run with it, portraying him as a UFO nut.

Now Firmage is off on a new project set to launch by the end of
the year -- EarthCity, an e-commerce venture that will allow
consumers to direct revenues from their purchases to nonprofit
organizations. But until he makes a new fortune, creates a new
empire, he will be hounded by those who mock him for pursuing,
as he puts it, "The Truth."

It all started with a vision.

It was just before El Nino came to town, in October 1997, when
the sun was still unwaveringly beating down upon Silicon Valley.
Joe Firmage was working endless days to smooth the edges on
countless drafts of papers to be filed with the Securities &
Exchange Commission, so that the company he founded with Novell
colleague Toby Corey in 1995 could make a run on the public
stock market.

One morning, before the SEC papers were due but after he'd
pressed the "snooze" button on his alarm clock, Firmage fell
back to sleep. During that time, he says he was visited by a
"remarkable being, clothed in brilliant white light," carrying a
glowing blue sphere, the size of a basketball. The two exchanged
words about space travel.

Just before Firmage was about to make that most symbolic move of
taking his company public and "cashing in" -- a leading motive
for most entrepreneurs -- he suddenly shifted his mental course.
He says he realized he was in a position of power, and that he
could do good with it or do evil. In the last hours before he
was about to "sell out," Firmage was struck by a desire for a
more rewarding avocation. He was prepared to give it all up to
better society.

One year later, Firmage shocked the industry, which, it should
be noted, is not closed to creativity, by revealing a project --
a Web site called Kairos -- that he'd been working on. Kairos is
a Greek term with many definitions. Firmage's meaning is "the
right moment." or "opportune."

"Ours is a Kairos moment," the site read. It posed a series of
questions ("What is the future of learning? Will wars ever end?
What is the future of religion? What would life from another
world be like?") and went on to offer some "clues." The site
prompted a wave of speculation about Firmage, mainly in the vein
of Gary Reischel, a partner at venture capital firm Softbank
Technology Ventures, who sits on USWeb's board. "A crackpot," he
told The Standard, summarizing what he'd been hearing on the
street.

The Kairos Web site turned out to be a teaser campaign for the
ultimate product, a 600-page online "book" on life, religion,
science and spirituality called The Truth . "That was what you
call 'good marketing,'" Firmage says of Kairos, which logged
10,000 visitors per day at the time. The clues, of which there
were 10, included links to books, writings and art by Carl
Sagan, Vanevar Bush, the Pope and others.

"I want people to understand something here," Firmage says. "I
have spent well over $3 million on this project. And I'm not
expecting a single dime in return."

Before there was Kairos, before there was a focus for derision,
Firmage was both liked and not liked. Wall Street types liked
him because he made them money. More experienced competitors
didn't because he was young and successful. Within USWeb, he was
not a natural manager. He was always, however, respected as a
visionary.

Firmage's career started taking off early. In 1989, he launched
Serius Corporation, a software company, in his hometown of Salt
Lake City, Utah. He sold it in 1993 to Novell for $24 million,
and went to work as vice president of strategy in Novell's
NetWare division. The unit's purpose was to promote and sell
NetWare, an operating system for wide area networks (meaning it
would provide the same computer language and interface for
machines that were linked together, so that they could
communicate more easily). The computer language for NetWare was
Unix, which is what much of the Internet is based on.

In 1995, Novell decided to sell its rights to Unix, which
Firmage thought was a terrible idea. "They had a wondrous
opportunity with their Unix operating system," he says. "Novell
owned the rights to Unix, which, today, ultimately runs the
Internet. And 60 days after Netscape went public, Novell decided
to sell its rights to Unix. I thought that was an insane
decision and, therefore, I decided to leave. I was not
optimistic about the prospects for Novell. And, of course,
between then and now, it's taken a long, long time for Novell to
even start to look like a turnaround."

Before Firmage left Novell, he met Toby Corey, a former Ashton
Tate executive who was NetWare's vice president of marketing.
"We saw the world the same way," says Firmage. "We were both
frustrated with Novell. It was like birds of a feather."
Furthermore, "Toby is one of the most brilliant operational
managers I've met. And he has a deep understanding of
marketing."

Corey, who would not return phone calls for this story, said
last fall in an interview about his last days at Novell with
Firmage, "We felt there was an opportunity, a shortage of people
who could help businesses take advantage of the Internet."

With the Internet in their sights, the two decided to strike out
on their own. Corey and Firmage moved to Silicon Valley, where
the money and necessary talent for start-ups was more readily
available. In March of 1996, USWeb was launched as a joint
venture with Ziff-Davis, which owns Softbank Technology
Ventures. Ziff-Davis is no longer a partner in USWeb, but
Softbank is still on USWeb's board.

The first round of criticism could best be termed the "McWeb
complaint." Competitors said the company was making a commodity
business out of a service business, and that Web design should
be based on individual attention to clients -- not an entirely
inaccurate claim. Firmage and Corey say they could not become
the major consulting firm they hoped to be if no one knew who
they were. So they built their brand by licensing their name and
business model for $25,000 per year and 7 percent of revenues to
affiliates, who would also gain access to USWeb's growing base
of technology partners. "We signed 40 or so affiliates and
gained a recognizable brand early on," Corey explained last
fall.

In March of 1997, enough brand equity had been built. The
company's roster of technology partners included the cream of
the crop, including Microsoft, Novell, Cisco and Sun
Microsystems, and $20 million had just been raised in a private
capital round. USWeb hired a mergers and acquisitions team led
by Bruce Gilpin, a former venture capitalist, and set about
building a network of wholly owned firms.

They swallowed up companies such as San Francisco-based Ikonic,
W3 Design in Los Angeles and Reach Networks in New York:
smallish, creative firms considered specialty boutiques. USWeb
also bought Gray Peak Technologies, a technology firm on Long
Island for $100 million in stock. The idea was to amass a
balance of talent across the creative, technology and strategic
sectors of Internet marketing and business operations. Although
USWeb officials made statements to the press asserting that the
original brand names of the shops would not be changed, once
each deal was closed, what happened was the equivalent of a
truck backing up to the new acquisition: A USWeb team would take
over the shop's existing ways with the goal of making their
processes more organized and efficient, like USWeb's. Logos were
changed, new business cards were handed out and all computer
systems were exchanged for USWeb's own. Employees were expected
to download their expertise onto a companywide network called
the Knowledge Base.

In this way, Firmage became an Internet mogul and a respected
businessman, even if he was somewhat disliked for his smugness.
Critics complained USWeb's tactics drained their acquisitions of
the freedom to be creative. Firmage and Corey countered that by
taking over administrative tasks, the shops were actually freer
to be creative.

In the meantime, Firmage was working on The Truth. Over the
course of the book, the author, with contributions from others,
runs through the history of the planet from geological,
biological, physical and spiritual perspectives. Links off of a
sort of poem act as a guide, or menu. The poem, his thesis, goes
like this:


"Evolving in a place called Eden Is a promising young
civilization. We grow more dangerous yet wiser each day.

Teachers have taught us through the ages.

They are watching us now. The Cosmos is their ocean,

and they have been mindful of our need to develop.

At what moment in history would these visitors want us to join
them? What will we become when we do?

We shall meet them as the Men and Women of the Earth.

And ask them for their Truth."


An image of a DNA strand bisects the poem.

Firmage's primary hypothesis is that the Earth has been visited
by extraterrestrial life forms who have contributed their own
developments -- such as fiber optics -- to our scientific history.
These visitations have been expedited by time travel.

He also has no doubt that humans will, before long, resolve the
mystery of gravity. Firmage describes a "new vehicle" in The
Truth -- a self-propelling, antigravity machine (only its
technology, not its assembly, has been determined, he says).
But, for the time being, he drives a red Corvette convertible.
"And I will be the first one to turn it over in exchange for one
of these new vehicles, believe me," he says.

In the last section of The Truth, Firmage describes his
dream-state encounter with the hovering Christ-like figure.
That's where you find sections beginning, "I am the body," "I am
the civilization" and "I am the creator of everything that comes
after me," in which it's unclear about whom the pronoun "I"
refers.

Plans for a new CEO at the merged USWeb and CKS had been in the
works, but were accelerated when the company began to receive
unwanted publicity over Kairos. Sources say Mark Kvamme, CEO of
CKS Group, the company with which USWeb was merging at the time,
went berzerk when he heard about Firmage's Web site.

On Nov. 3, 1998, Firmage stepped down from his post as chief
executive officer of USWeb, the company he built, to make way
for Robert Shaw, a former top executive at Oracle and a Silicon
Valley heavyweight with the Booz, Allen & Hamilton resume and
salt-and-pepper hair to prove it. Kvamme, unreachable for days --
"at merger meetings," according to his assistant -- finally
returned calls only upon news of Firmage's replacement. He
continues to refuse to discuss Firmage or his book.

A few weeks after his resignation as CEO, two days before
Thanksgiving and a day before his online book was to be
launched, Firmage showed little outward signs of last-minute
jitters. He wasn't distracted by the merger, or by his book, or
by an interview in the midst of it all. He chose to discuss his
reputation, saying he would lose nothing with the publication of
the book and noting that he's in a good position to take risks
with his ideas. After all, he has a proven track record.

"Outside the Valley, the spin will be however the newspapers
choose to report it, right? So let's say it's the Wall Street
Journal," which has written several stories on him and knows his
business history, a confident Firmage asserted. "That's a
national circulation. USA Today knows me. So, when they report,
they'll always say, 'and this guy built this company,' 'a bright
young guy,' whatever. So, I get credibility, because of my
history."

But Firmage's credibility was strained throughout the next few
months as he continued to receive more and more disparaging
publicity. On Jan. 8, he cut his ties to USWeb, saying he wanted
to protect the company from the flak he was receiving for The
Truth.

But Firmage insists he's not a martyr, nor a cult leader (in an
interview with USA Today, he said, "Someone said I'm trying to
become the next L. Ron Hubbard," referring to the founder of
Scientology. "I don't know of any comment that could be less
appealing."). He says he's simply trying to spread some of the
inspiration he's found to others, so that they will change their
lives to better all of humanity. The outcomes include an end to
consumer behavior that strains natural resources and the
empowerment of individuals to become independent of the
"system."

"A lot of people -- in fact most people -- don't know where that
inspiration can come from. And what has replaced a God in their
life is consumerism. How much do we worship the dollar? Think
about that," he says. "There is a load we are placing on
strained, limited natural resources. It's a very fragile planet.
And unless we wake up and start to realize a different way of
life, a more ecologically sound way of life -- frankly, a
slower-paced life -- I very much fear for the survival of this
species. And that sounds like a remarkable, bold statement. But
it's also absolutely true. Talk to any biologist with a good set
of credentials and they'll tell you exactly the same thing: The
world is headed for disaster. If we're not smart enough and
we're not courageous enough to look ourselves in the mirror and
say, here's what we look like, here's what were doing, than we
deserve to die in an ecological disaster."

Firmage recounts his years as a "youth" -- his word -- as the
fifth of seven children in a Mormon family. His father had
worked in the White House as Hubert Humphrey's press secretary
and ran for a U.S. Senate spot as a Democrat during the '70s --
"which is about as close to suicide as you could possibly come
[in conservative Utah]," notes Firmage. He remembers that his
parents fought against expansion of land-based missile tests. He
says that his father was a senior member of the Mormon church
and a famed lecturer on theology. He doesn't mention that his
parents split up when he was 18, when his father left the Mormon
church, and that he dropped out of school to live with his dad.
And in all the times he mentions his father -- whom he seems to
respect and adore very, very much -- he does not mention that one
of the biggest moments in his father's life was when he came out
as a gay man a few years after his divorce.

Lots of people do like Firmage, recent media coverage
notwithstanding. Those who have spent any time with him are
ready to sing his praises. And he realizes this. In several
interviews, in The Truth and several times within this
interview, he refers to "people who know me."

Last October, he sent out an e-mail to USWeb employees,
informing them of the project on which he'd spent $3 million and
countless hours over the past year. Drew Stepek, 28, responded.

Stepek had been toiling away in USWeb's Los Angeles office,
working on scripts for the online version of NBC's Homicide and
The Practice. He was a frustrated writer, looking for an outlet.
He wrote Firmage and told him he wanted to help. They bonded
over the discovery of their ages. Stepek was five days older
than Firmage, but, they concluded, they couldn't have been more
different. Firmage had been raised in the orderly, conservative
town of Salt Lake City. Stepek grew up in a fast-paced,
middle-class town on the East Coast. Firmage wore suits. Stepek
died his hair yellow and wore baggy pants. Firmage was a
businessman. Stepek was a creative type.

"He thought I was part of this hip-hop crowd," says Stepek.
Firmage ultimately asked Stepek to write 10 pages on what life
is like for a "youth" these days. The result is found in the "We
grow more dangerous" section of The Truth. It's a
"semiautobiographical" account of Stepek's last year in high
school, in which his best friend is shot to death right before
his eyes and another friend commits suicide because she can't
escape her stepfather's molesting advances. The story is
intended to be Firmage's way of giving readers a glimpse into
the lives of "our children."

"Joe is a really nice dude," Stepek says. "I can't really
dispell anything in his book. He believes it. That's what's
important."

Stepek isn't the only one who's standing -- at some distance -- by
Firmage throughout an ordeal that has put him in the awkward
position of UFO poster boy. "I was his critic, until he told me
his epiphany," said Ed Firmage, Sr., Joe's father, in December.
"It's clear that Joe had experienced something profound. He's
always been intensely rational, except for this last thing. What
he's doing now, I can understand. But I could see more clearly
than Joe what it would do to his corporate life."

Firmage behaves as if he's the first to discover the troubles
many people have, or the ties between various religions and the
points where they intersect with science. Furthermore, his
naivete shows no more clearly than through the thoroughly
Christian and Western slant of the entire book, a book that
claims it is a resource that can tie together all walks of
thought and types of people and lend them the knowledge to
change their lives and the world. He says on the day before the
book launches that those people who don't have the werewithal to
take his knowledge and improve their lives "don't deserve to be
a part of the future society."

And he believes that all critics have to do to be convinced is
to read the book. But skeptics did read the book. And they
lambasted him.

He's not pleased with the way the media has skewered The Truth.
The free paper, the Silicon Valley Metro, featured the Firmage
story on its cover, giving it full tabloid treatment with the
headline "Silicon Valley CEO Meets the Aliens," and adorning the
article with illustrations of aliens. Once Firmage revealed his
complete departure from USWeb/CKS earlier this month, the San
Francisco Chronicle and the San Jose Mercury News followed with
their own stories, similarly portraying him as a flying
saucer-chaser.

Over the Martin Luther King Day weekend, Firmage was expected to
release a condensed, printable version of the book. He also says
he will continue to communicate directly with those who have
visited The Truth.

But why call it "The Truth"? He utters two words: "Monica
Lewinsky."

"You look at the consequences of a relatively minor lie in the
office of the President, and you look at the consequences," says
Firmage. "If you really wanted to change civilization, for the
better, what would you do? If there was one thing you could do
to change civilization for the better? Tell the truth. Because
ultimately, the truth will guide people where they need to go.
If we knew how we were damaging the environment, we could fix
it. If we knew when a President was lying, we could deal with
it." The Truth, says Firmage, will set you free.


Mentioned in this article

PEOPLE
*Joe Firmage Chief Strategist, USWeb/CKS
*Toby Corey President and COO, USWeb/CKS

COMPANIES
*USWeb Santa Clara, CA
*Novell Provo, UT
*Netscape Mountain View, CA
*Ziff-Davis New York, NY
*Microsoft Redmond, WA
*Cisco San Jose, CA
*Sun Palo Alto, CA


Related Articles

*USWeb Founder Quits Over UFO Views
USWeb founder Joe Firmage resigned Friday, saying that he
believed continued publicity over his belief in UFOs would
damage the company's reputation.   (January 11, 1999)

*Why USWeb's CEO Had to Go
If you think your CEO is about to make you lose face with your
clients, what should you do? Speed up the process of replacing
him, of course.  (November 06, 1998)

*USWeb's Firmage Steps Down
UPDATE In a surprise announcement Thursday morning, USWeb's Joe
Firmage said he is stepping down from his role as CEO.
(November 05, 1998)

*USWeb CEO Prepares Book on Universal Order
In one month's time, the way to deal with the chaos of the
universe will be clear. That's the message of a Web site
promoting an online book coming out from Joe Firmage, the CEO of
USWeb.   (October 29, 1998)


Copyright =A9 1998 The Industry Standard
All rights reserved
E-mail:
webmaster@thestandard.com





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 16

                       Re: Military Retirees & Secrecy

From: Scott LeGrand <varelse@best.com>
Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 10:53:34 -0800 (PST)
Fwd Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 14:42:46 -0500
Subject: Re: Military Retirees & Secrecy


>Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 11:12:44 +0000
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: John Rimmer <magonia@magonia.demon.co.uk>
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Military Retirees & Secrecy


>With the massive degree of media promotion, books, magazines, TV
>programmes ("factual" and fictional), a huge amount of
>web-space, newspapers features, videos, etc., etc., etc. devoted
>to a largely uncritical view of ufology, how can you claim that
>this is "a society that shuns the UFO topic"? This is a society
>that laps it up. Many postings on this List are of newspaper and
>magazine articles reporting surveys that purport to show that a
>very high percentage of the general population believes that
>"UFOs are real".

Actually, while society does indeed "lap it up", I think Joseph
Firmage is correct to state that if someone in a position of
power and/or responsibility comes out and states that they
believe in UFOs, there will be a "giggle factor" associated with
them forevermore which will ultimately drive them from that
position of power and/or responsibility.  And the San Jose
Mercury News' Dan Gillmor is dead-on IMO when he states that
belief in UFOs is no more irrational than belief in the Bible
yet we do not excise the religious from positions of power and
responsibility despite centuries of evidence that excessive
religion starts wars, gets people killed, and seems like a very
bad thing.

While Joe Sixpack can regale his friends with tales of
alien/satanic abuction tales like that compulsive liar from The
Twilight Zone episode, no one seeking tenure, a CEOship, or
political office can comfortably come out and state that they
think aliens are among us.  If they do so, it's game over for
their careers despite any qualifications.  I think Mr. Firmage's
experience is but the latest evidence.  All of this is
irrespective of whether UFOs are real or illusory.  The only
power people who seem to have the right to openly profess belief
are in Hollywood.

It's really odd.  You're right that society eats up Roswell,
abduction tales, and paranormal phenomena in general.  But at
the same time, no one in authority is allowed to believe any of
it could possibly be for real.  Just try asking a political
candidate on the stump trail what he thinks about UFOs some
time.  Their responses are highly entertaining. I imagine that
their spectrum of belief is very similar to that of the general
population, but I'll bet a survey of politicians would show zero
belief in any of this.  Only in America...

>The fact is that people claiming some special insight or direct
>experience of an extraterrestrial UFO phenomenon are not shunned
>- often they are give very large advances on book contracts.
>It's the wicked old sceptics who are shunned.

This is a strawman, tsk tsk.  You mean there's more money in the
entertainment industry than in science?  Say it ain't so!  And
just how many of those contactees ever really get the book
contracts?  Are you saying that if I walk down to Barnes and
Noble and tell them I've been on a flying saucer that they'll
hand me a million dollars upfront to tell my story?  Where do I
sign up?!?!?!?!?

>Who gets more money for a book, Klass or Strieber?

Who's a better writer?

Who gets more money for a book, Penn and Teller or Strieber?



Scott





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 16

                        Re: Watch For My Coming Hoax!

From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 12:27:51 -0600 (CST)
Fwd Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 14:39:17 -0500
Subject: Re: Watch For My Coming Hoax!


>Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 14:22:47 -0800
>From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: Watch For My Coming Hoax!

>>Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 09:58:32 -0800 (PST)
>>From: Jeff Westover <frequentflier66@yahoo.com>
>>Subject: Re: Watch For My Coming Hoax!
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>

>>Hello EBK and list.

>>I'm interested in knowing whether or not anyone in the mental
>>health field has ever done a study of the psychology of UFO
>>hoaxers? It certainly would be a worthy area of study within
>>ufology.

>How about hoaxers in general? That might make the numbers large
>enough to interest the Psychology community or others in allied
>studies.

>UFOs are a prime target of course, but so are paranormal
>studies, exobiology, xenobiology ( bigfoot, loch ness .. ) and
>other "fringe" areas. The lure might be the large numbers of
>people who want to believe in something, but there may be some
>other psychology afoot here entirely.

>I would expect hoaxers in all fringe sciences to have very
>similar modes and motives, but I could be wrong there too.


My guess is that the motives are relatively individual in
nature. In the current IUR, for example, there is an exposure of
the famous Beaver, Pennsylvania, UFO photo. Turns out the
perpetrators, teenagers, had been doing a little underage
drinking while their parents were away and were just having a
llittle fun. Even then the hoax was accidental, in that it was a
third boy who actually gave the photo to a newspaper,
unbeknownst to the perpetrators. The latter, thinking they could
get in serious trouble for same, then concocted a story to go
with the photo. In a sense, then, there was no original motive,
unless you want to blame it on the beer.

Earlier this month I was hiking with my family in West Texas
when I came across the rusted lid of an old tin can. Without
much conscious thought about the matter, I picked it up and
sailed it off into the sunset. The lid made a beautiful bank
against the sky and spectacular scenery. Damn, I said, that
would have made a great flying saucer picture!

Well, we had cameras with us, and there was the lid still, so we
did what came naturally. The pictures haven't been developed
yet, but I'll let you know if anything good turns up.

Another problem with determining hoax motives, in the absence of
a confession, is the definition of hoax itself. That, too, may
be in the eye of the beholder. Many crop circle hoaxes weren't
viewed as such by their perpetrators. Some thought there was
nothing to hoax in the first place, for example, others felt
they were engaged in landscape art, and a few did it as an
exercise, or experiment, in individual and mass psychology. On
no doubt more than one occasion, crop circles were created
simply to piss some prominent investigator off. A few were
created as signals to the intelligence supposedly doing the real
thing. Many circles, in other words, but many motives, too.
Humans are like that, you know. Not everything they do is for
the money or the attention.

Dennis






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 16

                 Truth Detracting Elements of the Abduction

From: Patricia Mason <pmason@ee.net>
Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 14:32:34 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 14:44:57 -0500
Subject:  Truth Detracting Elements of the Abduction


Eve Lorgen will be giving a presentation to LA MUFON on January
20, 1999 at the Burbank Pickwik Center. For more information
see:

http://www.mufonla.com/

For her latest article available on the web see:

http://users1.ee.net/pmason/el_implications.html

Truth Detracting Elements of the Abduction Phenomena:
Psychological Implications

By Eve Frances Lorgen, M. A.

Excerpt:

The main difference between alien abduction trauma and versus
other trauma- based problems is the added factor of the aliens
continued perpetration of such victimizing activities. Not only
do the aliens continue to contact and abduct the individual, but
they also will often act in ways to prevent the abductee from
getting the factual information they need to heal from these
issues. Often abductees change their attitude concerning their
abductors from anger and helplessness or critical thinking to
adoration and compliance, similar to the "Stockholm" syndrome.

UFO researchers, abduction therapists, psychological and medical
professionals dealing with abductees often overlook this alien
"control" factor. Core issues of abductees cannot fully be
addressed until the control factor of the alien presence is
acknowledged. (This includes acquisition of evidence of alien
abductions.)






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 17

             Re: Official US Air Force 'Roswell Incident' Report

From: Neil Morris <neil@adm1.ph.man.ac.uk>
Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 18:34:24 -0800
Fwd Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 13:36:50 -0500
Subject: Re: Official US Air Force 'Roswell Incident' Report


>From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
>Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 17:24:44 +0000
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Official US Air Force 'Roswell Incident' Report

>>From: Steven W. Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
>>Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 17:25:49 -0500
>>Fwd Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 16:34:51 -0500
>>Subject: Re: Official US Air Force 'Roswell Incident' Report

>>>Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 16:22:35 -0800
>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>>From: Neil Morris <neil@adm1.ph.man.ac.uk>
>>>Subject: Re: Official US Air Force 'Roswell Incident' Report

>Previously, Neil wrote:

>>>Of course some nice helpfull person may think to try and get the
>>>Cc out of the archives under the FOIA?.


Steve, Rodger and All.

Yes, my comments were related to the "Ramey Message" document.

We now know from the GOA report that the Roswell signals
documentation for the period in question were alledgedly
"shredded" many years ago? Has anyone checked the
corrisponding period documentation (should it exists..those
shredders get everywhere) for the Fort Worth end, a signal has a
source as well as a destination, and hopefully a record of
passage at both ends.

A question for those UpDate'ers conversant with FOIA matters.
How difficult a task would this be ?

Neil.


-------------------------------------------------------

Neil Morris@Home.
Email:             Neil@adm1.ph.man.ac.uk






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 17

                   April IF Conference Info Webpage Is Up

From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net>
Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 05:10:56 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 13:28:10 -0500
Subject: April IF Conference Info Webpage Is Up


Hi All,

A webpage containing information on the upcoming April
conference being hosted by the Intruders Foundation is now up on
the web. It can be accessed by going to:

http://www.if-aic.com/conference.htm

I look forward to seeing some of you there.

Peace,

John Velez, Webmaster IF-AIC
________________________________________________
                                jvif@spacelab.net
INTRUDERS FOUNDATION/ABDUCTION INFORMATION CENTER
                            http://www.if-aic.com
"Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind."
________________________________________________





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 17

                                  The Truth

From: The Kairos <thekairos@the-word-is-truth.org>
Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 01:33:27 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 13:33:35 -0500
Subject: The Truth

Hello friend,

My name is Joseph P. Firmage.

Broadcast messages from me will not be frequent, so don't worry
about me cluttering up your mailbox.

Following this brief introduction, I have provided below a URL
which will direct you to an "editor's cut" condensed edition of
my book, The Truth, published on November 25th, 1998. This
condensed edition is first available only in a Microsoft Word 97
file format, other formats will be added later. A hardback
version of the complete book as it stands will become available
later this year. I understand and appreciate that it is
impossible for many of you to allocate enough time to read a
several hundred page book, particularly online, so I have taken
the time to provide a proper summary of its contents and claims.
I've spent millions of dollars to communicate this information
at no cost to you, so it is not asking much to take a quiet
moment and at the very least read this shortened version. I
don't ask that you believe, just that you read and consider.

The Truth represents a rather large hypothesis, whose overall
conclusion has enormous implications for every single human on
Earth. I have written the book from the perspective of a
generalist, with the collaboration of many well-respected
specialists. The specialization in which I have been most deeply
educated is computer science, and more recently, the Internet
economy. But that's only the latest step in my particular
journey.

It started from a passion for the stars, sparked by wondrous
science fiction shown throughout my youth. It grew into a
commitment to science, and physics in particular. The desire to
comprehend the deepest functions and meaning of physics evolved
into a study of scientific anomalies - always where fundamental
new discoveries emerge. Unfortunately, 5-10 years ago, such
anomalies found no root in a rational explanatory hypothesis,
and therefore the underlying observations have been rejected by
science. Frustrated, I left the domain years ago to concentrate
exclusively on a growing involvement in computing and
communications and various related enterprises.

Sparked again 14 months ago by one of the most remarkable events
in my life to date, I returned to these domains to study more
recent developments, now aided by the communications reach of
the Internet. I found extremely well-respected scientists whose
remarkable new theories began to clearly explain the anomalies.
The pieces of those old puzzles then began to assemble into a
majestic picture, motivating me to return attention to studying
a broad cross-section of works as a generalist. Adding fuel to
the fire is a growing understanding that the future of our
biosphere and our civilization is at risk and depends in
fundamental ways upon the types of discoveries I discuss on the
book.

Why are generalists useful to the world? Because we predict the
future for the whole of civilization, not simply a single branch
of study. As within any field of specialists, many generalists
are frequently wrong and many generalists are frequently right.
I've chosen to put forth a testable hypothesis which is
concisely stated in 17 phrases. The details underneath these
phrases are each important, but more important is the coherence
of the overall pattern. It is certain that several of the
details in a work of this scale are incorrect. But the
plausibility of the overall hypothesis requires only that there
is good evidence for each primary logical step.

Naturally, there should be a lot of evidence supporting each
logical step in order to make the assertions I am making. I
believe such evidence is now in print, across my book and in
those books referenced by me.

You might think that I am distraught over wild exaggerations in
the press and the resulting possibility of damage to my
credibility and career, given my choice to communicate this
information so publicly. Indeed, though I am no longer with the
firm, I have helped to create a $2+ billion dollar enterprise at
the pinnacle of the Internet communications revolution just
before the dawn of the new millennium. It's a great place and
time to build a career. But, actually, I am more excited than
ever before in my life, despite the frightening challenges we
all face that I describe below. What I have put together is
quality information, I have studied it for over a decade, and
its implications are an order of magnitude more fundamental than
you have imagined. The implications fire the imagination.

This book simply does not fit into the class of the fringe or
fantasy. I do not mean to diminish the works of others who've
tackled this subject matter, for I have built my hypothesis in
part upon their preliminary research into a phenomenon almost
completely foreign to open science. But whatever the ultimate
truth may turn out to be, it will have to explain all of the
subjects addressed in this book, for everything in this book
observes significant phenomenon that are or have actually
occurred. I am not aware of an alternative theory that connects
each of these large pieces. One thing is certain: there is a
human saga, and we must decipher every major clue discussed in
this book to understand it.

Even granting this, you may ask why I should bother doing this.
Why should I not keep this to myself, and pursue whatever
passions I have as a private study?

Why? Because you are my brothers and sisters in a sense more
meaningful than the cultural frameworks we use to separate
ourselves into groups: we are all part of the race of homo
sapiens beings, a fragile yet ancient creation just now waking
up to its potential. I care about you, and I am deeply concerned
for our shared long term future, the legacy we shall leave. We
are destroying our children, our culture, even the ancient
biosphere that made us, as we encourage a mindlessly
uncontrolled praise of wealth. The Earth has a water cycle and a
carbon cycle. It must have a profit cycle. And it will, even if
it becomes so disfunctional as to fail humanity, before
returning to health. As the great scientist Carl Sagan long
maintained, the discovery of extraterrestrial life will
ultimately become the single greatest unifying force ever for
humanity. We will need that kind of unity to overcome the next
century's challenges.

Meanwhile, the Cosmos beckons us, as if to say "demonstrate the
judgment to deserve access to this domain".

In this story, the CEO in me has become a human being, the
scientist has turned from a pessimist to an optimist, the
skeptic has opened his mind, and the spirit in everything I have
sensed with clarity. Whether you agree with my conclusions or
not, if a critical number of us can cross similar thresholds in
our pursuit of truth, in whatever direction it may lead each of
us, a genuine transformation of our society will occur.

Welcome to The Truth

http://www.TheWordIsTruth.org/TheTruth.doc

a story that will go on forever. Print this out, it's about 240
pages long. Take it to a quiet place, and read it through at one
time. If you find it as fascinating as I do, please forward this
message to as many people as you can. My primary objective is to
spread this knowledge as far as possible. We can all agree to
let the history books determine whether my hypothesis is
correct.

The complete book, and a recently started personal journal that
will track its evolution, can be found at
www.TheWordIsTruth.org.

And to my brilliant co-authors, thank you again.

JOSEPH P. FIRMAGE
INTERNATIONAL SPACE SCIENCES ORGANIZATION

--









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 17

                   Project 1947 on Jeff Rense's Sightings

From: Jan Aldrich <jan@cyberzone.net>
Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 15:40:36 -0800
Fwd Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 13:38:38 -0500
Subject: Project 1947 on Jeff Rense's Sightings


I have been invited to appear on  Jeff Rense's show, Monday,
January 18, from 8-10 pm Pacific Time.

The proposed topic are:

   1.  The newly rediscovered APRO microfilm,

   2.  Newly reveal US Strategic Air Forces, Europe,
       1945 Top Secret Document which mentions "Foo-fighters."

   3.  US government Ghost Rocket documents (mostly
       formerly Top Secret) as discussed in the latest edition
       of the CUFOS International UFO Reporter,

http://www.cufos.org/IUR_index.html


   4.  Proper handling of Top Secret material.


--
Jan Aldrich
Project 1947
http://www.iufog.org/project1947/
P. O. Box 391, Canterbury, CT 06331, USA
Telephone: (860) 546-9135





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 17

                 Santilli's ''Tent Footage': New Revelations

From: James Easton <pulsar@compuserve.com>
Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 16:45:52 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 13:47:56 -0500
Subject: Santilli's ''Tent Footage': New Revelations


The 'tent footage' was the first alleged 'Roswell' film which
Ray Santilli released, sometime during December 1994, or early
January 1995.

Amongst those who saw a copy of the film on video were 'crop
circle' aficionados Reg Presley, Colin Andrews and George
Wingfield. Santilli also provided a copy of the video to Philip
Mantle from the British UFO Research Association (BUFORA).

Even at that early stage, there were some misgivings about the
authenticity of this film, with reports that it had a 'green
cast' and exhibited no signs of originating from old film stock.

A video showing part of the 'tent footage' was received in the
US by Robert Kiviat, producer of the Fox network's "Alien
Autopsy: Fact or Fiction", a televised documentary which became
a huge success when later itself released on video.

Although Mantle had confirmed that Santilli had a copy of the
film which was "crystal clear", Kiviat's video was poor quality,
with the faces of the 'medics' being , 'blackened out'.

Aside from these early showings, Santilli never released the
'tent footage' and as the main 'alien autopsy' footage took
centre stage, circa May 1995, began to distance himself from the
first film, claiming that neither himself or the 80 year-old
'cameraman' he bought it from were satisfied with its
authenticity.

Stills from the 'tent footage' can be seen on Neil Morris's web
site, at URL:

http://adm2.ph.man.ac.uk/tentft.htm


In July 1995, I asked Ray Santilli if he could explain the
origins of the 'security marker', reported as being present on
screen throughout the early video showings:

"The marker is dated 'July 30, 1947', where did this originate
and what does it refer to"?

Santilli replied, "On part of the tent footage there is a date
board which was added after (it continues after the footage is
over) It could be the date of process (we don't know)".


In August 1995, I further asked of the 'tent footage', allegedly
part of the archive 16mm film acquired in December 1994-January
1995:

"I was wondering how you were able to show some of the footage,
already carefully transferred to video from the original 16mm
reels, as early as the first week or so of January 1995".

Santilli explained: "Some of the footage needed little or no
work".


In September 1995, Bob Shell, editor of the US photographic
magazine 'Shutterbug' and who had offered to assist in dating
the claimed archive 16mm film, responded to questions being
raised about the late release of Santilli's own mail order
video, 'Roswell: The Footage' stating:

"I'm assured that the delay was only because Ray was trying his
best to get permission to include the first autopsy and the rest
of the tent scene. These negotiations apparently were not
successful".

Shell has just reaffirmed to me, "This is what I was told at the
time".


Shortly afterwards, he confirmed again having spoken to
Santilli's company:

"This morning I asked about the absence of the tent footage from
the video. I am told this was just loose in the box and that the
cameraman now says he can't recall what this is or when and
where he shot it".

Shell, however, also stated at this time that he had been told:

"The tent footage, shot at the crash site under light from
emergency lanterns, shows technicians cutting the 'space suit'
off one of the bodies because, to quote the cameraman, it was
holding in heat and hastening decomposition. The fabric was very
tough, and they eventually had to use sheet metal cutters to cut
it".


A principal supporter of the 'Roswell' footage's authenticity
was German 'ufologist' Michael Hesemann, who proclaimed in
October 1995 that one of the "major revelations" at the
forthcoming 'World UFO Congress Dialogue with the Universe' in
Dusseldorf-Kaarst was that "Phil Mantle will show the complete
tent footage".

Despite the fact that Hesemann, Mantle and Shell had become
Santilli's 'ambassadors', with Hesemann and Mantle co-authoring
an 'exclusive' book on the reality of the 'Roswell alien
autopsy' claims, it seems none of them had been informed at this
time that the footage was known to be bogus.


In January 1996, in reply to some queries I had raised, Bob
Shell confirmed to me:

"Ray said to me that the complete tent footage was contained
within the 'junk reel' when I was in his office in October. He
motioned with his hands to indicate the diameter of the reel. He
also mentioned at that time about the football game, family
stuff, and other unidentifiable footage included in this reel".

Santilli himself seemed to uphold this claim when interviewed on
3 November, 1995:

Q: How much more footage do you have in your hands which does
not show on the Roswell video? A: There is more footage but I am
not in control of it. It is in the hands of the collector.

Q: How clear is it? A: There is one full autopsy film and some
scrap.

Q: Is this the tent footage? A: No, the tent footage is scrap.


With no apparent warning that the footage was known to be fake,
Mantle took the video across the Atlantic to be shown at the
July 1996 Mutual UFO Network (MUFON) conference in Greensboro.


It wasn't until June, 1998, that there was published evidence
indicating the 'tent footage' to be a definite hoax.

Mantle reported that on 30 March, l998, he had received
information from an unnamed source, who claimed to have taken
part in the filming.

Subsequently, Mantle revealed the names of "those alleged to
have faked the tent footage", as Keith Bateman and Andy Price
Watts, from Milton Keynes, England.

The story was picked up by Robert Kiviat and on 28 December,
1998, it featured in a new Fox network documentary 'World's
Greatest Hoaxes: Secrets Finally Revealed'.

It was only in response to the recent Fox broadcast that
Santilli claimed to have been aware the footage was a "practical
joke" played on him, although maintaining it didn't affect the
authenticity of the 'alien autopsy' film.

Further information, including Santilli's rebuttals, can be
found on Mark Center's informative web site, at URL:

http://www.uforeport.com/kiviat1.html


Although the program included an interview with one of the
persons who had apparently participated in the 'tent footage',
he was not, as claimed in the Fox press release, "one of the
actors who took part in staging the alien autopsy ruse".

The 'alien autopsy' footage which had been broadcast world-wide
was a completely separate and vastly superior sequence of film.
As a hoax, none of the participants involved had been
identified.


Missing from the evidence was an interview with either Bateman
or Watts, with Mantle stating that neither had responded to his
letters, phone calls or faxes.

Nick Price a journalist with the UK national newspaper 'The Mail
on Sunday', and who I had worked with previously, was familiar
with the complex and by no means straightforward 'alien autopsy'
affair. Following recent developments, Nick contacted me in an
effort to finally resolve the many unanswered questions.

I'm pleased to announce that Keith Bateman has now agreed to
tell the 'full story' of the 'tent footage' and it will be the
subject of an article in tomorrow's edition of 'The Mail on
Sunday'.


Having a detailed understanding of the background to the 'alien
autopsy', I was fortunately in a position to hopefully identify
some key questions which were put to Keith Bateman and which he
answered in addition to the obvious ones, such as whether Ray
Santilli know from the outset that the film was bogus.

After the article is published, a transcript will be available
on my web site at:

http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/pulsar/


Reactions and information which may not be included in the
article will be addressed in the next issue of my 'Pulsar'
newsletter, which will also be available on my web site before
the end of this month, or can be requested by e-mail.


Even though the hoax footage was created in November 1994,
almost a full year later, in correspondence with Hesemann, he
chided:

"I saw the tent footage many times and just the speed of the
movements and also the sharpness of the images indicates it was
shot with a 16 mm camera and not with video. The only reason why
Ray doesn't like it is that it is so bloody dark (dimly lit) and
looks pathetically bad. I personally think it shows the being
when the medics try to remove its spacesuit. A tent in the
desert at night... with no electricity, that's why it is so
dark. But all these sceptics will say again: Look, they have
something to hide, looks, why is it so bad..".

Despite Hesemann's current insistence that the 'tent footage'
was shot on 16mm film, according to Bateman it was in fact
originally shot in colour, I understand using a Sony M3 video
camera, and the colour video has just been made available. If
time permitted, Nick intended to include some colour stills with
the article.

Far from evidence of a 'being' having it's spacesuit removed
within a tent in the desert, it's the tale of a 'being' based on
a 'gray' alien t-shirt, some 'chicken innards', was filmed
within a barn in rural Bedfordshire and one of the stars was the
local butcher.

Hereafter it should presumably be designated the 'barn footage',
or perhaps 'yarn footage'


The 'Mail on Sunday' article will I'm sure prove enlightening
and entertaining.



James.
E-mail: pulsar@compuserve.com





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 17

                         R.A.M.S. - A Parting Shot?

From: Robert A. M. Stephens <sti3818@montana.com>
Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 14:57:46 +0000
Fwd Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 14:01:08 -0500
Subject: R.A.M.S. - A Parting Shot?


please post far and wide.

One Last Little Item From The 'Fraud' Robert A.M. Stephens

Hello everyone.  Since it has been universally disclosed and
concluded that I am a fake and a charlatan and a liar---in
essence,   a Fraud,  it should be fitting to close the last
final chapter on this debacle in true,  revealing fashion in the
same venue as my  undoing was set in motion.

So,  with that fact stated,  that last little item is still
those vexing 199 remaining questions I was invited to debate
with Richard  C. Hoagland,  esteemed plank owner of The
Enterprise Mission, but was deprived from asking.

And since there seemed to be a problem in understanding my
syntax of language,  which is English,  and through this
confused state,  Mr. Hoagland was unable to answer question
number 1,  its only fitting to be fair to Richard Hoagland to
answer that question on his own venue with no interruptions to
his own satisfaction.  Then,  on to question number 2 and so on,
until all 199 have been addressed.

So,  with all due triumph in mind for the winning team of
Hoagland-Bell & Co.  in round one in which if you don't like the
question,  shut off the questioner,  this time,  we just go
straight to  question number 2.  This and all others are based
solely on The Enterprise Mission web site.  No tricks.

And it stands to reason that since question number 1 proved to
be correct,  and since the �host�,  Art Bell,  would not allow
the question to be asked or answered,  it is then easy to assume
the other 199 questions are also true in charges of being lies.
Consider.

Then  a re-engagement is in order.  To tidy up loose ends.  To
ferret out all 'Fraud'.

This is simple.  I and the other 20 million Bell listeners and
the others out there who still have all these questions need
addressment.  This is only fair in light of the awesome �truth�
endeavor that  Bell-Hoagland & Co. is under in coming forth with
said �truth�.

Conditions of debate:

1. Debate will be as originally outlined by Art Bell himself in
his phone call to my home.

2. Art Bell moderates Stephens �Fraud� verses Richard Hoagland.
Debate title:  �Fraud�  vs. Richard Hoagland.

3. Debate runs all 4 hours as promised.

4. Debate is comprised of 200 questions based solely on the
Richard Hoagland Enterprise Mission web site from 12-10-1998.

5. No cut off by Bell because he doesn't like �Fraud�s�
questions to the debatee.

6. If all 200 questions are not answered to the satisfaction of
Richard C. Hoagland then another show will be dedicated for
Richard C. Hoagland and Fraud to conclude the debate format in
due venue.

7. After the debate has concluded,  the moderator,  the debater,
and the debatee are allowed to voice there assessments within a
reasonable time limit.   Art Bell will use no 'clickers' or
other editing or cancellation tools unless the debaters get
unruly or use profanities. Art Bell will not distort or edit
'Fraud' or Richard C. Hoagland.

8. Art Bell will read no phony preamble,  secret agent crap from
Tom Bearden or any other strange savant from the UFO community
to dramatize the issue as he did in the first 15 minutes on
12-30-1998.  Another words,  no phony crap.  The two debaters
present should be all the 'strangeness'  required for
showmanship and ratings.


Simple conditions.  And since Art Bell�s ratings have dropped
since 12-30-1998 this is an opportunity for Bell to  rescue his
show a little bit.

Errata -------- If Art Bell and Richard Hoagland refuse to
assent to the re-debate,  then a national press release will be
issued pertaining to the fact that Art Bell is not interested in
fair reporting,  but rather is interested in tabloid journalism
in its worst form with the intent to deceive.  This,  of course,
is in keeping the integrity of the UFO regime intact publicly
for complete intended credibility.

Too,  since Robert A.M. Stephen�s sanity is questioned two more
conditions should be considered at this time:  First,   a
professional medical report can and will be publicly issued
testifying that �Fraud�s� mind is in fact,  sound,  ready to
deploy in planned debate which was aborted by Art Bell.  Second,
if this is still a question,  then a neutral debater will be
brought to bare under the title of �Fraud� verses,  Richard
Hoagland.  Same format,  different debater.  The debatee,
Richard C.  Hoagland,  can then have the choice to indulge in
the unusual luxury of either debating the original �Fraud�  or a
surrogate �Fraud� in name only.

Just as we found out that Robert A.M. Stephens is a virtual
�Fraud�  in every way a person can be a fraud,  it is only
fitting,  and being absolutely objective,  that the UFO Culture
weed out ALL �Fraud�  for the betterment of the whole culture
and field of endeavor combined.  Under the present
circumstances,  only the first element of the �Fraud�  has been
revealed,  ala  Robert A. M. Stephens.    The second possible
Fraud concerned with this issue remains illusive,  by choice.

The field of UFOs and everything under this umbrella of study
must not let this immutable unanswered clarity go unchallenged,
or,  then,  everyone and anything having a connection to it
comes to question.  Or, put in  even clearer terms,   this UFO
field of study then must conclude upon itself that it is
infected with a form of �selective disinformation�.  And that
further testifies to itself that what is good for forcing the
�guvmint� to come clean,  is not the same protocol that is
implemented for the UFO culture and its �own�, like Richard C.
Hoagland and Art Bell and others,  to come �clean� too.   One
must then serve the other or all is lost.  And since like
Stephens' lie was found,  there was also the first 'lie' that
was found out in the beginning 'debate' on the Art Bell show
made by Richard Hoagland,  then it stands that the other
possible 199 lies need to be revealed also.

Quite logical,  actually.  Quite fair too,  for credibility
sake.

Since that then becomes an immutable fact,  it brings us back to
the first post I ever mentioned on the Montana UFO:  �if the
field of UFO studies does not police itself in the eyes of the
investigator, all parties,  then how be it any doors of
disclosure will ever come about from  outside the UFO regime
itself.

This assessment still,  then,  stands as a glaring beacon of
immutable truth.

Let the re-debate then be so scheduled.

Far and wide,  let the Art Bell-Richard Hoagland entertainment
juggernaut note your feelings on this subject with emails as
soon as possible after you figure out what you should do for
yourself.

You should direct all demands for clarity and disclosure to the
great UFO cultural triad:  Art Bell,  Richard C. Hoagland of the
Enterprise Mission,  and CAUS.  Do not tell me your thoughts,
since I am publicly answering this already herein.

And lastly,  should Bell-Hoagland & Co.  refuse the re-debate,
along with the press release,  the 200 questions will also be
released on the internet for the UFO community itself to then
present to the parties of concern for answering on their own.
Of course, I will answer them on the release before hand since
no one will counter them and thus,  it will then be up to the
great Triad to respond with  why they aren't lies.....

....and then prove it.

Imagine.  200 possible lies as perpetrated by long standing
savant's of the UFO community.  One lie was already proven to be
a fact by the esteemed Dr. Richard Sauder.  And that was only
question number 1.

199 to go fellas.

Make your voices of truth intent heard.

�Fraud� has.  So should you.

As mentioned in my last previous public post,  this should
�cover� about everything.





Robert A.M. Stephens
'The Fraud'
406-745-3818
sti3818@montana.com
-------------------
Robert  A.M. Stephens
NASA Documentation Program
Stillwater Mills
Contractor-Aerospace
406-745-3818
sti3818@montana.com
http://198.116.116.10/gallery/arts/samples.html













   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 17

                       Re: Military Retirees & Secrecy

From: John Rimmer  <magonia@magonia.demon.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 22:40:08 +0000
Fwd Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 14:17:08 -0500
Subject: Re: Military Retirees & Secrecy


>Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 10:53:34 -0800 (PST)
>From: Scott LeGrand <varelse@best.com>
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Re: Military Retirees & Secrecy

>>Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 11:12:44 +0000
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>From: John Rimmer <magonia@magonia.demon.co.uk>
>>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Military Retirees & Secrecy

>>With the massive degree of media promotion, books, magazines, TV
>>programmes ("factual" and fictional), a huge amount of
>>web-space, newspapers features, videos, etc., etc., etc. devoted
>>to a largely uncritical view of ufology, how can you claim that
>>this is "a society that shuns the UFO topic"? This is a society
>>that laps it up. Many postings on this List are of newspaper and
>>magazine articles reporting surveys that purport to show that a
>>very high percentage of the general population believes that
>>"UFOs are real".
>
>Actually, while society does indeed "lap it up", I think Joseph
>Firmage is correct to state that if someone in a position of
>power and/or responsibility comes out and states that they
>believe in UFOs, there will be a "giggle factor" associated with
>them forevermore which will ultimately drive them from that
>position of power and/or responsibility.

Possibly, but the stories we are dealing with do not come from CEOs,
tenured academics, etc. I still maintain that society is pretty tolerant
and accepting towards Joe Public who comes up with an abduction account.

>And the San Jose
>Mercury News' Dan Gillmor is dead-on IMO when he states that
>belief in UFOs is no more irrational than belief in the Bible
>yet we do not excise the religious from positions of power and
>responsibility despite centuries of evidence that excessive
>religion starts wars, gets people killed, and seems like a very
>bad thing.

This may be the case in America, but I think if a prominent British
businessman or academic came out as a prosyletising creationist or
fundamentalist it wouldn't do him much good, and the "giggle factor"
would be pushed into overdrive. One up for the UK, I think.
>
>It's really odd.  You're right that society eats up Roswell,
>abduction tales, and paranormal phenomena in general.  But at
>the same time, no one in authority is allowed to believe any of
>it could possibly be for real.  Just try asking a political
>candidate on the stump trail what he thinks about UFOs some
>time.

True enough, but also ask them what their views are on haunted houses,
crop circles or sasquatch. I suppose there is a political element to
UFOs that some other paranormal topics don't have, but it seems to me
that there are politicians on both sides of the Atlantic who have raised
the matter in a serious and unsensational way in their respective
legislatures. They may have got brush-off replies from the Pentagon or
the MoD, but I don't see their careers suffering.

>Their responses are highly entertaining. I imagine that
>their spectrum of belief is very similar to that of the general
>population, but I'll bet a survey of politicians would show zero
>belief in any of this.  Only in America...

... and I suspect anywhere else with a democratic electoral system where
politicians are terrified of offending *anybody* . They may avoid
demonstrating a pro-UFO position, but on the other hand try getting them
to say that people who see UFOs are kooks -- hey, there's a lot of
potential lost votes out there...
>
>>The fact is that people claiming some special insight or direct
>>experience of an extraterrestrial UFO phenomenon are not shunned
>>- often they are give very large advances on book contracts.
>>It's the wicked old sceptics who are shunned.

>This is a strawman, tsk tsk.  You mean there's more money in the
>entertainment industry than in science?

Well, glad we agree that Strieber, Hopkins and the rest of the
crew are entertainment rather than science, but isn't that
rather my point?

>  Say it ain't so!  And
>just how many of those contactees ever really get the book
>contracts?  Are you saying that if I walk down to Barnes and
>Noble and tell them I've been on a flying saucer that they'll
>hand me a million dollars upfront to tell my story?  Where do I
>sign up?!?!?!?!?

No, but neither do I if I walk in and say there ain't no such
thing as an abduction. (oh, be honest, I once got about GBP800 -
about a thousand bucks, big deal - from a British publisher for
doing just that. I never got invited back, though!) No, not
everybody gets a big contract -- you've got to have a good agent
first. (British readers: try Max clifford!)

>>Who gets more money for a book, Klass or Strieber?

>Who's a better writer?

I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that Jerome
Clark will accuse me of Literary Criticism.

>Who gets more money for a book, Penn and Teller or Strieber?

Maybe, but there's still a helluvalot more money in gullibilty
than scepticism. I just want to make it clear that the alleged
great public hostility to UFO experients is largely a myth.

--
John Rimmer
Magonia Magazine, a division of the P.L.A. Driftwood International Cartel
www.magonia.demon.co.uk





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 17

                       Re: R.A.M.S. - A Parting Shot?

From: Robert A. M. Stephens <sti3818@montana.com>
Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 17:23:35 +0000
Fwd Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 14:26:26 -0500
Subject: Re: R.A.M.S. - A Parting Shot?

>From Joe Frimage

>I, for one, believe this debate should occur. >>

From Gersten to Firmage:

And why is that, Joe?  Why do you think Richard should 'debate'
an admitted and proven charlatan?  I would suggest you see Patch
Adams instead.  Remember that old saying...'fool me once...shame
on you; fool me twice...shame on me?' What do you think happens
the third time?

Peter
----------------------------------------------------------

Hi Peter  (from Fraud)

Heeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeessssssssssssssss back......el
capitano'.

I believe I can answer your question to Mr. Firmage,  my dear
Peter,  at least in part.

The third time always results in a reimbursement of the second.
Art Bell -Hoagland-CAUS & Co.  should have reason to look back
across the gulf of events and look at the situation quite
carefully,  then.

Too,  it will be fitting that even a Fraud will be able to
divulge more Fraud,  since it takes a thief to find a thief.
You should be so wise.

Viola.


I'm  back.  We got 199 questions to answer.  They should be
asked by someone at the very bottom of the social food chain.
That,   I believe,  in this venue, at this current moment,  is
me.



Behold



sincerely,

Robert  A.M. Stephens
NASA Documentation Program
Stillwater Mills
Contractor-Aerospace
406-745-3818
sti3818@montana.com
http://198.116.116.10/gallery/arts/samples.html







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 17

                       Re: Military Retirees & Secrecy

From: Dave Vetterick <veterick@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 18:53:01 -0600
Fwd Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 14:28:45 -0500
Subject: Re: Military Retirees & Secrecy


>From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
>Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 09:13:13 EST
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Re: Military Retirees & Secrecy

>Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 17:50:20 +0000
>From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Military Retirees & Secrecy

>>Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 16:46:28 -0600
>>From: Dave Vetterick <veterick@ix.netcom.com>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>Subject: Re: Military Retirees & Secrecy

>>>Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 23:32:40 -0800
>>>From: Judith Dale <judithdale@earthlink.net>
>>>To: UFO UpDates-Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>>Subject: Military Retirees & Secrecy

EBK and List :

This topic needs some clarification.

My reply to Judith Dale's original post (both noted above) as
submitted for posting to the list, did not snip any of her
original post. I didn't think it was that long that it needed to
be.

EBK evidently felt otherwise. In posting my message to the list
he snipped Judith's post right after her opening paragraph.

Perhaps I should have written my reply differently. I apologize.
However, the snip to Judith's message coming where it did has
caused some confusion which I'll attempt to clarify while at the
same time responding to Kevin and Roger's posts also noted
above.

Here is the pertinent part of Judith's message:

>The experience that I have is with my partner's dad, who is a
>retired Lt. Colonel, USAF intelligence. In response to questions
>about UFO's and the involvement of the Air Force, he will only
>say that alot has gone on and to talk about it would put him,
>and us, in terrible danger. This doesn't sound like a fear of
>loosing his pension, to me. This is a man who started in the
>Army and became Air Force in 1947. The Air Force subsequently
>paid for him to get a graduate degree in communications at Yale.

She goes on to speak about a notebook with drawings of Greys
which I'm sure we'd all love to see. She concludes with:

>We have all found his refusal to tell us anything to be
>incredibly frustrating. He is now in his 80's, but insists that
>what he knows will go to the grave with him. He is adamant that
>it is not safe for him to speak. Fear of lost pension? I don't
>think so. This is also a man who was rah, rah military, and now
>vehemently hates the military. Curious.

Kevin, my original point was NOT questioning or belittling the
man's right to continue to honor his oath if he so chooses, as
seems to be your impression of what I was saying.

My question was and still is...What is the basis for the fear
that if he talked it would put him, AND HIS IMMEDIATE FAMILY, in
"terrible danger", and "it is not SAFE for him to speak".

This implies bodily harm would come about if he spoke about 30
year old UFO related military secrets.

Roger, no offense, but suggesting the government and military is
going to inflict illegal bodily harm over this and could get
away with it, as you said they likely did over the Contra
dealings, is far fetched and bordering on paranoia in my
opinion.

Intimidation is a tool, but to suggest in this day and time that
the military could threaten anything other than putting a person
in Ft. Leavenworth much less illegal bodily harm to a person's
family, and get away with it just isn't realistic.

Judith said this gentleman now "vehemently hates the military".
So the obvious conclusion she makes herself is that its not the
oath keeping him silent, but the fear of bodily harm.

What was the nature of the threat, and who made it?

I've seen this claim of fear tossed around many times but there
never is any elaboration of the exact nature of the this
physical threat. I'm not questioning Judith's or anyone's
integrity. Just asking for details of this threat.

If I were illegally threatened this way by the military, or any
REAL government agency I'd be on CNN and MSNBC within the hour.

Dave Vetterick






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 17

               Re: Truth Detracting Elements of the Abduction

From: Steve Jones <svjones@jps.net>
Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 19:56:55 -0800
Fwd Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 14:32:34 -0500
Subject: Re: Truth Detracting Elements of the Abduction


>From: Patricia Mason <pmason@ee.net>
>To: UFO UpDates <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Truth Detracting Elements of the Abduction Phenomena
>Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 14:32:34 -0500

>Eve Lorgen will be giving a presentation to LA MUFON on January
>20, 1999 at the Burbank Pickwik Center. For more information
>see:

>http://www.mufonla.com/

>For her latest article available on the web see:
>
>http://users1.ee.net/pmason/el_implications.html
>
>Truth Detracting Elements of the Abduction Phenomena:
>Psychological Implications
>
>By Eve Frances Lorgen, M. A.

Greetings-

I have had about 10 years of experience with informal
observation of numerous individuals who have allegedly
experienced an abduction involving what they described as a none
human entity. I come at this, not from the standpoint of a
clinical professional (although I have a degree in Psychology,
where I specialized in perception and information processing),
but rather as a Folklorist ( also am degreed in Anthropology and
have done graduate work in fringe religions and cults). I have
been doing this type of work for over 30 years now, starting
with the lore that is very prevalent in the Mount Shasta area of
California back in 1968.

Although I have seen instances of what could be described as a
"Stockholm syndrome" (falling in love with your abductor)type of
reaction, for the most part, these people have experienced some
very deeply seated trauma. I have three very close friends who
have been in this situation and I can tell you that they really
do not like to open up about it. This includes one who has been
a combat veteran and has done special ops work for the U.S.
Army. One of my cases also involved an ex-Navy Seal who
disappeared in Travis Walton style for over 8 days. He was so
traumatized that upon recovering, he reported directly to his
ex-commanding officer, who just so happens to be very high up in
the chain of command.

The point here is the abduction scenario, regardless of what
people would like to make out of it in defense of their
particular world view, is something that needs very serious
scientific inquiry. This is precisely what motivated John Mack
to do what he has done, regardless of the consequences.

Continuously over the past decade I have heard the rants of
those who demand that proof be personally delivered to their
doorstep and this continues to this day. To be frank, I have
long ago grown bored of this, however nothing would give me
greater pleasure than to take some skeptics right up to the side
of a large craft and let them touch it themselves. Who knows,
sometime in the future, this might happen.

Steve Jones






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 17

                     Re: Re: R.A.M.S. - A Parting Shot?

From: "Robert A. M. Stephens" <sti3818@montana.com>
Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 21:40:17 +0000
Fwd Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 14:40:52 -0500
Subject: Re: Re: R.A.M.S. - A Parting Shot?

>UFOLAWYER1@aol.com wrote:
>In a message dated 1/16/99 5:17:34 PM Mountain Standard Time,
>sti3818@montana.com writes:

>>We got 199 questions to answer.

>Robert,

>Maybe so...but you are the last person to accuse anyone of
>anything.  You have shown a propensity to lie and a total
>disregard for the truth. When you decide to tell the truth about

>your background...instead of lies...then you can challenge
>someone else's truth.  Each of our truth's starts at home.

>I agree that all statements, including Richard's, must be
>carefully scrutinized by professional people.  You are simply
>not that person...since you are neither truthful nor a
>scientist.  You are merely another person seeking attention at
>another's expense and reputation.

>And you had told me on the telephone that you wanted no further
>involvement in this area or these People.  That you would no
>longer e-mail anyone and sought no further attention.  Were
>those statements to me just more of your lies?  Or is it simply
>that you have no control over what you say and do?

>Peter

------------------------------

Hi Peter,

Good rational mail.  I have sent you verification,  on
everything I have stated publicly.  I have sent links to you
personally since your interview with me on the phone,  verifying
SR-71,  Fence,  exobiology,  etc,  etc,  by those hundreds who
write me daily doing their own research.  Everything was and is
true.  Not not some psycho induced conjecture based on fantasy
and stolen embellished photographs from NASA archives.

I have lied about nothing.  Nothing.  My background,  like the
felonious records and erroneous lies of others, hidden and
selectively ignored by this industry,  is about to be revealed.
Just like me,  since I don't see you or anyone else putting
their money where their all searching mouth is in ferreting out
true fraud,  I'll do what you have demanded of me.  That is
fair.

My background in service to the United States is not subject to
public domain and never will be.  Period.  If that isn't good
enough,  then you should demand the same from others,  or leave
it alone.  You can do that as you see fit.

I am the foremost to bring forth the other 199 questions that I
was forbidden to asked.  Why did Hoagland tell Sauder to leave
Washington D.C.  because it was going to bomb itself.  Since you
are the third leg of the great entertainment triad of
Bell-Hoagland & Co. and you claim to be serious,  how come you
don't demand the same scruitny from him on such gravitous
questions.  My data,  from the Montana UFO to the present on
NEXRAD is true,  to the letter.

Until you get off the selective memory and censorship of the
industry,  your complaint is meaningless.

I told you you could quote anything of disclaimer in your
interview with me.  You decided to do just that.  But you did
not set back and think for a minute that if you did,  you must
do the same for all.  You have erred.  It is now you and the
great triad of UFO entertainement that must defend your selves
since I'm  already at the bottom of the totem.  Even a Fraud can
asked questions.

Why is it that through all this it is the Ph.Ds,  the serious
researchers,  the real people behind the scenes,  that flood my
mailbox with mail teaching me more about this industry and the
intruder enigma,  and asking questions in return.  Why the
thousands of mails since 12-30-1998 still pouring in in utter
support myself and utter contempt of my discrediting because the
great juggernaut didn't like the question.

You may call Kennedy Space Center,  at 407-867-1566,  the
general number.  Asked for Larry Mauk.  Asked Mr. Mauk of my
background with NASA documentation since 1982.  Then asked him
of my work for all the various vendors of aerospace since 1980.
Simple.  Asked about things I have not mentioned yet,  like the
artist in space project with Judith Resnik,  deceased astronaut,
Challenger,  1-28-1986.  And there is so much more.


And that is all we should be concerned with.   When you do,  do
the same for KSC public affairs,  since you'll be at the same
center,  and asked why Richard Hoagland has lost  his press
accreditation for himself and the Enterprise Mission in every
NASA center on Earth.

Because he lied to NASA.

I have not.

199 questions.  One was a lie and confirmed.  Either it will be
done by debate or publicly.

As for attention,  if you cared to check at Mutual News,  or the
National Gallery or the Smithsonian,  you will find I have had
enough 'attention'  for anyone in five lifetimes,  long before I
ever new about this thing online.  Attention is not the issue
here.  Because,  remember,  I'm a fraud Peter,  and who wants to
be proud of that.


sincerely,

Robert  A.M. Stephens
NASA Documentation Program
Stillwater Mills
Contractor-Aerospace
406-745-3818
sti3818@montana.com
http://198.116.116.10/gallery/arts/samples.html





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 17

                        Re: Watch for my coming hoax!

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 00:09:25 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 14:47:15 -0500
Subject: Re:  Watch for my coming hoax!



>From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@aol.com>
>Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 21:01:05 EST
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Re: Watch for my coming hoax!

>Ironically, like many debunkers, Edelman also claims to have a
>scientific background and decries ufology as completely
>unscientific. Since when is compulsive lying to make your case
>"scientific"?

Compulsive lying, eh? Perhaps Edelman has learned from Der
Schlickmeister  (the Master of Slick)






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 17

                               'Confirmation'?

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 00:09:31 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 14:50:03 -0500
Subject: 'Confirmation'?

To All:

I have looked at the Confirmation web site:

www.confirmation.net

which hypes the upcoming (Feb. 17) 2 hr NBC documentary
based "in spirit" on Whitley's book. Looks as if once again
the entertainment and hype may overpower the accuracy.

In particular, it advertises the Aug. 6, 1997 Mexico City
video....  which I demonstrated, at the studio which produced
the NBC show, is a likely hoax (background imagery smeared by
hand motion; UFO image never smeared by hand motion).

Of course, I don't know what they will say about it.... maybe
they will call it a hoax.





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 17

              Australian Ufo Reports & Experiences -02-99, #10

From: Robert Frola <ufologist@powerup.com.au>
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 15:18:10 +1000
Fwd Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 14:56:29 -0500
Subject: Australian Ufo Reports & Experiences -02-99, #10

Hi all,

Attached here is the latest from Australia. One file in three different
formats, Word7 Doc, Txt and Rtf. There are ongoing investigations and
these will be reported in future issues.

Cheers

Robert Frola
Australian UFO Research Network

________________________________

AUSTRALIAN UFO REPORTS AND EXPERIENCES
1999 ISSUE TEN
FEBRUARY

Compiled by Robert Frola
Australian UFO Research Network
PO Box 805 Springwood QLD 4127



________________________________________________________________

POSSIBLE HOAX / MISIDENTIFICATION: Jimboomba, Queensland CE-2
Event



Original Report as posted on Skywatch International: Harry Mason
National UFO Hotline Australia

10-12-98 @ 10.55pm - JIMBOOMBA, QUEENSLAND, AUSTRALIA, "BFT"
EVENT

UFO Sighting Report # 18,971/5=3D10-12-98 NATIONAL UFO HOTLINE
AUSTRALIA Harry Mason Defense and Intel Liaison Officer Defense
Intelligence Department WA Section

HM =3D Interviewer (Perth WA: 08-9525-5999) - notes taken by phone
on 10-12-98 night - about 2 hours after incident (began at
10.55pm Qld time) at 12.30am Qld time, (10.30pm WA time) -
Observers rang Ross Dowe at National UFO Hotline on his mobile
phone to offer sighting report - Ross could not hear them due to
noise on mobile telephone line. Ross immediately informed HM who
rang them 15 minutes later from WA to get report. Their house
telephone Line free of noise at this time =3D 12.30am Queensland
time on 11-12-98 (=3D 10.30am WA time on 10-12-98) - see below for
details of telephone interference before, during, and after
event.

(NB. HM Impressed by geniuses and apparent honesty of witnesses
- they were still somewhat "hyper-agitated" over sighting!)

Witness requested anonymity from public release of their names
and personal contact details but serious accredited researchers
can apply to HM for this info.

Observer Location =3D Jimboomba, Queensland, Eastern Australia
(some 40km. south of Brisbane at 153Deg 03Min East, 27Deg 50Min
South)

[NB. The four observers promised to each draw object and fax to
interviewer this weekend.]

[NB. Ipswich RAAF base is located 38km Northwest of Jimboomba.]

Event Date/Time =3D 10-12-98 @ 10.55pm Queensland Time (8.55pm WA
Time)

Duration of Sighting =3D some 20 minutes.

Nature of Event: -

The three observers saw a big intense orange-red glowing upside
down soup bowl or hemispheric light in the east (towards sea) at
about an 65 Deg elevation which then moved towards them and rose
in fluid fashion vertically above them whilst hemisphere changed
colour to intense bright red (similar colour to setting sun).
They could look straight up at 90 Deg into the base of the
brightly glowing "bulb" of red light, which was so intense it
hurt their eyes.

Multi coloured lights (like clear house lights) then began to
flash from a flat structure now visible on top of the red
hemisphere (possibly the top structure rotated?). The red
hemisphere or "bulb" was seen to be attached underneath and in
centre of a huge sort of dark Boomerang cum Equilateral Triangle
shaped wing-form (one of observers familiar with F117A and B2
stated object was similar but much bigger and definitely not one
of those - more like a very big Jumbo Jet in size - but flew
totally unlike any aircraft he had ever seen).

Object hovered stopped dead in the sky, or moved slowly and then
at times rapidly, and all times fluidly, from location to
location. Craft was at times surrounded by a sort of green haze
and local air space near craft glowed with either intense green
or white light at various times. Flashing multicoloured lights
seen at times on the top large dark wing structure consisted of
orange-red-green-yellow-blue-silver etc. and appeared to
originate all over this top structure. Lower central orange-red
hemisphere or "bulb" glowed intense red at times and at other
moments was more orange in colour.

The three observers thought there were possibly small rotating
red lights on both sides at front of flat wing structure with
small white lights at triangle apexes. As object came down over
the observers from the east it moved towards their southwest and
flashed all over with multiple coloured lights and then began to
glow with a green haze.

The now four observers (one woken up to see the show) observed
the object lower with a bright green haze around it to about a
45 Deg elevation to their southwest. It then hovered dead in the
sky. A bright pure white light haze was then emitted from the
object and the space nearby and lit up the entire surrounding
area and the ground. There was no light coming from the ground -
it was all derived from the object and the air space near it.

Just after object passed overhead they heard a light dull
humming swishing noise - otherwise no noise in most of event.
One observer remarked it was unlike a normal plane where sound
preceded object. In this case sound followed it's movement and
there was NO sound as it moved towards them or whilst it
maneuvered - only when it stopped or went directly over and past
them could they hear the dull hum.

The object then moved from it's location to their southwest and
went around them to their south and thence back to the east
(i.e. it did not approach Ipswich RAAF base which lies some
38km. to their northwest and 35km wsw of Brisbane). As it moved
east it started flashing blue-red - possibly spinning? The base
"bulb" began to pulse and flash blood red and the top lights
flashed multicolours - all simultaneously. The object moved
slowly for some time then it picked up speed dramatically fast
and disappeared from sight in dark cloud to the east from whence
it had come.

There was no rain, no lightning or any storm of any kind before
during or after the event that night, but it was cloudy to the
east.

Their mobile phone was useless from just before they first saw
the object for about one hour - well after object had left the
area. The mobile phone just emitted intense static with a highly
disturbed signal. The house phone was also useless for about 45
minutes during the incident and after, and emitted a very loud
crackling noise for the 45 minutes of down time. NB Ross Dowe
confirmed that whilst they rang him with their mobile it was
impossible to hear them clearly due to intense static - he could
just make out their phone number - this was about one hour after
their UFO-light event had finished. They claim not being able to
contact anyone by either mobile or house phone for nearly one
hour after the event. They finally were able to reach the RAAF
who gave them Ross Dowe's number.

They had their own electric lights off with no TV or radio or
electrical appliances on during the event. They were finishing
up their evening with candles on the verandah. Neighbours
electric lights appeared to be unaffected during the entire
event. They do not know what happened to TV and Radio
transmissions during the event.

Whilst the object was around the township of Jimboomba the
neighbourhood dogs were going berserk barking and howling and
their own dog was "very frisky". The event put the hairs up on
their own necks during the close overflight.

The interviewer detected no symptoms of alcohol or narcotics in
each of the observers - over the telephone interview.  Each
person independently interviewed and each verified general
aspects of entire event.

NB. Similar events involving huge "BFT's", or reports of very
large Manta-Ray/outfolded "Rose Petal" or "Daisy Petal" black
winged craft with many lights were reported beginning 4-Dec-98
City Beach Perth WA, 7-Dec-98 Melbourne Victoria. 10-Dec-98
Darwin NT, 10-Dec-98 North Queensland. These are currently being
investigated and will be reported as soon as all facts are in.
Some events are at night, others by day, some clear skies, some
in electrical storms, and some in cloudy conditions.

No military maneuver known to be in progress - but this is being
checked. NB somewhat similar electrical events in North
Queensland previously attributed to US Military Exercises and
use of EM blanketing device from Stealth aircraft?


Conclusion: Event represents Danger to Australian Airspace and
Civilians

Recommendation: Inform Canberra Dept. Defense and Relevant Air
Traffic Authority officers re BLT event series and request
discussion.

Best Regards,  Harry Mason    orbitx@iinet.net.au.

Our Conclusions - pending further investigation: Robert Frola
UFOICQ

A UFO Investigator who lives on the outskirts of Jimboomba said
there was no jumbo size UFO over the town ship on the night of
the 10.12.98.  She stated that while driving home from dinner at
10.55pm she saw aircraft lights in the clouds, and may have
mistaken them as a UFO. But it was definitely a plane she saw.
It had big landing lights and was flying through the clouds.
Contacted RAAF Amberley, whose response was that if indeed an
object was observed on radar, that low over a town for a period
of 20 minutes, they would have investigated this anomaly. There
was no military maneuvers and only civilian activity that
evening. As with power blackouts/brownouts, they are quite
common around the area and happen often.

REPORTS:

26.06.96  Milton, NSW  0530hrs (CE1) (Source: Diane Harrison,
e-mail: tkbnetw@fan.net.au. The Keith Basterfield Network
02.10.98) Her home at Milton NSW (Just north of Ulladulla) is
approx. 3km from and 150 metres higher than the ocean, and faces
east. At 5.30 AM She was woken by her cat and got  up to let him
out.  At eye level out over the ocean at approx. 3=BD km distance
she saw "many" (more than 5) bright amber lights playing around
a larger amber light.  The smaller lights were pea size and the
larger was tennis ball size.  Some small ones arrived and others
departed over a period of 30 minutes.   Finally a very large,
dark, hat shaped, dinner plate size object descended vertically
into view and the larger amber light started flashing signals at
it.  In response, a ring of multi coloured lights came on around
the rim of the large dark object.  The large amber object then
flew into it and disappeared. The large "mother ship" then
angled its right hand edge up to about 45 degrees. while
maintaining stationary position and soon after the smaller amber
lights also flew into it and disappeared and the large craft
ascended vertically until indistinguishable among the stars.
Mrs. Y says she experienced no lost time or had any period of
strangeness during the period of the sighting and does not
believe an abduction was involved. (Brad Mildern)

12.10.98  Nowra, NSW  2300hrs (NL) **UPDATE** (Source: Joseph
Trainor, UFO Roundup Vol.3, No.42 19.10.98. & Diane Harrison,
e-mail: tkbnetw@fan.net.au. The Keith Basterfield Network
31.12.98) On Monday, October 12, 1998, just before 11 p.m., a
31-year-old housewife went outdoors at her home about 6
kilometers (3 miles) from Nowra, New South Wales, Australia and
spotted a group of UFOs in tight formation flying low toward the
south. The house is in a rural area with only one dirt road from
Nowra to Sassafras and on to Braidwood. Nowra is on Australia's
eastcoast about 180 kilometers (108 miles) south of Sydney. The
UFOs appeared to be at 35 degrees elevation and hovered there
before moving south again. The witness said they only had a
visible shape when using the binoculars but appeared to be as
large as a 5-cent piece at arm's length when using them. They
were bell-shaped with a white or bluish-white light at the top,
quite steady. They appeared 'translucent, like a jellyfish' and
displayed multi-coloured flashing lights around the sides in no
recognizable pattern. Central underneath was a steady bluish
glow. When they came back toward the farm, they wove about in
the sky about 6 to 8 kilometers southwest of her property, where
they stayed for about twenty minutes and appeared to be flying
erratically, 'like a conductor's baton or a ballet dance.' Just
after 11:30 p.m., they flickered off to the west-northwest,
dipping behind some trees. Brad Mildern of Paradox UFO Group,
which covers Batemans Bay, investigated the case. Commenting on
the Nowra UFOs, Ufologist Diane Harrison said, "Description
reminds me of the photos from Gulf Breeze." (Brad Mildern)

01.12.98  Brisbane, QLD  (St Lucia) 2000hrs (NL) (Source: Robert
Frola, UFO Investigation Centre Queensland, 03.12.98) "Lisa & I
had just finished our touch football game at St Lucia University
(field No 7). As we walked back across the field towards our
car, we observed the object just above the tree line heading
west of the city in a slightly downward motion. It looked to me,
from the size and position in the sky, that its location would
have been between us and Brisbane City. Its speed was much, much
faster than any plane I have ever seen. I know what meteors look
like and this was no meteor...Its colour was almost flourescent
bright green, not just in places but the whole entire object.
(Personal Investigation)

14.12.98  Katherine, NT (NL) (Source: Northern Territory NEWS
"UFO Sighting's on the rise: expert Says" by Maria Billias
14.12.98 & Keith Douglass Credit: Diane Harrison, e-mail:
tkbnetw@fan.net.au. The Keith Basterfield Network 18.12.98) UFO
reports in the Territory have increased astronomically, with the
latest Sightings occurring in Katherine yesterday morning. UFO
Researcher Keith Douglass of Unidentified Flying Objects
Research, Alice Springs, yesterday said UFO sightings were
reported to him every two or three days. And he said reports had
soared, not just in the Territory, but all over the world. Mr
Douglass said: "It's bigger than anyone could imagine. "UFO
sighting is on the increase because it's becoming more
acceptable not to be called an idiot."

"A lot of people are seeing them in the Territory especially,
with strange lights being reported on average every tow or three
days". Mr. Douglass said the most recent sighting came from
Katherine early yesterday morning, with two tennis-sized red
ball illuminating the sky. He said: "I got the report from a
couple of different people saying they were about 2-3km up in
the sky and 2am". Mr. Douglass said, while he was unsure where
these lights came from he firmly believed that they were not a
hoax. He said: "I think there is something going on out there."
(Keith Douglass)

14.12.98  Alice Springs, NT  (Rapid Creek) 0210hrs (NL) (Source:
Diane Harrison, e-mail: tkbnetw@fan.net.au. The Keith
Basterfield Network 18.12.98) Warwick S said: "The time was
2.10am I had gone out side to have a smoke and enjoy the
beautiful night/ early morning. I said a prayer, looked up and
around the Milky Way that hung there in the sky. I saw a
shooting star and then to my right a flashing light approaching,
the lights caught my attention. At first I thought it was a
plane as the Airport isn't far away. It flew past me slowly
observing me and letting me observe them. It maintained the same
speed around (5 km/h) and then flew out to sea."

Height: Around 20meters up, or a 3-story block of units in
height. Objects lights: blue, red, yellow, and orange Duration:
10 min Shape: Oval with light through the middle of it How did
you feel: Scared, excited, overwhelmed, spun out, and
disappointed  sort of because they didn't stop to chat. (Keith
Douglass)

31.12.98/01.01.99  Brisbane, QLD  (Woodridge) bet 2230-0030hrs
(NL) (Source: 1800 Freecall Australian UFO Research Network
Hotline Number) Over a period of three to four hours, a husband
and wife, while relaxing on the back veranda of their home,
sighted a number of unknown objects. The first was around
10.30pm on New Year's Eve. 3 objects were seen over the top of
Mt Tamborine. Another lighted object was observed over Kingston.
The next group of objects, (8 in number), were seen shortly
after midnight. These objects were described as white balls of
light with a red outer glowing rim. Looking through binoculars,
the objects appeared to have flecks of light emanating from the
circumference of the objects.

NOTE: RAAF Amberley had received numerous reports of similar
objects. No military or civilian aircraft were flying in the
area at the time of the sighting. The witnesses had contacted
Ross Dowe after the RAAF Duty Officer of the day gave them his
telephone number. Ross Dowe's explanation to the sightings: a
meteor shower. Weather condition at the time: full cloud cover
(1000-1500 feet), rain moderate to heavy. The meteor shower
explanation seems ludicrous. Contacted authorities, which were
involved with fireworks display. Objects do not fit the
description of any fireworks they have in their inventory. Their
suggestion: UFOs or meteor shower. A gentleman living in Wynnum
contacted witness, being a CB/short wave enthusiast. He also
same the same objects but over the bay.

They also recounted a sighting, which occurred on Christmas Eve.
A red ball was seen over Middle Rd Greenbank area. This object
traveled across the sky in a straight line, before going
vertical, disappearing quickly through the clouds. (UFOICQ)

01.01.99  Brisbane, QLD  (Forest Lake) bet 0030-0100hrs (CE1)
(U/I) (Source: 1800 Freecall Australian UFO Research Network
Hotline Number) While sitting under the back pergola, Mr. W and
his wife sighted a triangular object, moving very slowly over
the western horizon in a north to northwesterly direction. The
object had a yellow orange glow about it. Through binoculars it
was yellow on top and orange on the bottom. 15 minutes later, an
identical object appeared and traveled along the same flight
path. The witness, an ex-Vietnam vet, estimated the speed of the
object to be around 80 to 90kph. No noise was heard. Both
witnesses wear glasses.  (UFOICQ)


Sources for this issue:

Keith Douglass,  PO Box 3205, Alice Springs, NT  0871
Brad Mildern, PO Box 255, Nowra, NSW  2541
UFOICQ, PO Box 805, Springwood, QLD  4127
________________________________________________________________





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 17

                             Re: Fox TV Special

From: Michael Christol <mchristo@mindspring.com>
Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 23:55:40 -0600
Fwd Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 14:58:50 -0500
Subject: Re: Fox TV Special


>From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: RE: UFO UpDate: Re: Fox TV Special
>Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 00:41:40 -0500

>>Yet again Greg you are basing your bias on what I typed. I again
>>call for you to just take the time to view the CONTACT video
>>tape and then you and I can talk from a somewhat level playing
>>field... I respect your right to your opinion...but an opinion
>>which is formed on partial information, is incomplete. <G>

>For the last time, Michael, and this is very frustrating....

>I'm not talking about the Contact video, on which I have no
>opinion.

>You quoted an analysis of the sound heard on it. Your quote was
>quite long. I commented on what you quoted. If there's something
>else in the video that you think I would like better, please
>type it out, as you did your last quote, so I can know what it
>is.

Yes, and I am telling you that the 'Contact' video contains that
analysis which I typed from the book.  I could care less if you
see it or not, if you are not interested in viewing the very
thing I spent time typing...

So, regardless of the rest of this message, and what it may mean
to either of us, I will say no more.  You need not bother to
reply, since it taxes your time and patience so much...

REgards, Mike






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 17

                Pilgrimage To Celestial Light Causes Terrible

From: Stig Agermose <Stig_Agermose@online.pol.dk>
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 07:26:08 +0100 (MET)
Fwd Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 15:03:34 -0500
Subject: Pilgrimage To Celestial Light Causes Terrible


[List only]

Source: AP via the Boston Globe

http://www.boston.com:80/dailyglobe2/016/nation/Rescu
ers_seek_hundreds_in_rubble_after_a_landslide_at_Indi
an_shrine+.shtml

Stig

***

Rescuers seek hundreds in rubble after a landslide at Indian
shrine

By Associated Press, 01/16/99

NEW DELHI - Rescuers cleared debris yesterday, and sobbing
pilgrims searched for relatives and friends, after 51 pilgrims
died in a stampede and landslide at a Hindu shrine in southern
India, news reports said.

Local television reported that at least 100 other pilgrims were
injured as thousands of people rushed down a hill Thursday near
the Sabarimala shrine in southern Kerala state, 1,300 miles
south of New Delhi.

Rescue workers dug through a mound of boulders that had slid
down the slope, looking for 11 people still feared buried,
police said yesterday. Hundred of firefighters and police were
trying to clear thousands of panicked pilgrims from the area.

The pilgrimage turned into a stampede Thursday after a rope
snapped that had been intended to channel the flow of people
downhill. Barefoot pilgrims were suddenly all over the hillside,
some trying to sidestep electrical wires strewn in the area,
police said. Part of the hilltop collapsed under the pressure,
creating a landslide, police said.

Hundreds of thousands of pilgrims were visiting the area for the
Hindu festival of Makar Sankranti.

The Star TV network said facilities at the shrine were
inadequate to cope with the number of pilgrims, which has risen
each year. It reported that only 30 doctors were on hand to care
for half a million pilgrims.

Sabarimala is a deeply revered Hindu pilgrimage site. Each year,
tens of millions of pilgrims in traditional black robes climb
the 9-mile route up the mountain to worship at a temple
dedicated to the Hindu god Ayappa.

On the way down, they often stop at vantage points on the hill
to watch for a naturally occurring light reportedly seen in the
surrounding forest only on a limited number of holy days.


This story ran on page A05 of the Boston Globe on 01/16/99.

=A9Copyright 1999 Globe Newspaper Company.











=A9Copyright 1998 Globe Newspaper Company

Extending our newspaper services to the web Return to
the home page
of The Globe Online





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 17

                       Re: The State of Ufology Today

From: Josh Goldstein <clearlt@pacbell.net>
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 01:37:06 -0800
Fwd Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 15:10:27 -0500
Subject: Re: The State of Ufology Today


>Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 20:15:06 -0500
>From: Gary Alevy <galevy@pipeline.com>
>To: UFO UpDate <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: The State of Ufology Today

>>From: George Filer <Majorstar@AOL.COM>
>>Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 19:08:34 EST
>>Fwd Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 22:32:20 -0500
>>Subject: Filer's Files 99-#1 MUFON Skywatch Investigations

>>Filer's Files #1-1999,  MUFON Skywatch Investigations
>>George A. Filer,  MUFON Eastern Director,  Happy New Year
>>January  8, 1998,   Majorstar@aol.com  (609) 654-0020

<snip>

>>I feel more than fifty percent of the sightings can be explained
>>as aerial misidentifications, natural phenomenon, various types
>>of secret military aircraft and the like.

>I am amazed at your abilities, after decades in the field.

>>There continues a steady stream of reports throughout most of
>>the year.

>Well, yes, this is most certainly so and worthy of comment.

>>It seems that the reporting of these misidentifications should
>>continue, even if the real UFOs departed.

>The "real" UFOs!  Got them pinned down, do you?!  And I rather
>imagine if the "real" UFOs stopped coming around we'd see an end
>to the other reports as well, after a decent interval.

<snip>

>>MUFON investigators like myself are not paid or reimbursed for
>>numerous phone calls, travel, and time expended to verify the
>>reports.

>Now, that says a whole lot about something, doesn't it?  That
>is, the "verification" process is self-funded, by the verifiers,
>who are just ordinary citizens.  Impressive, to say the least.

<snip>

>>I report the siting if it seems authentic.

>Is that "siting" or "sighting?"  Inquiring minds want to know!

>>We attempt to have investigators follow up the reports.  Often
>>those people with the best sightings are very reluctant to be
>>interviewed.  They often do not want UFO investigators coming to
>>their homes or giving out their names.  I think this is
>>understandable.  Even under the best conditions it is difficult
>>to have a meaningful follow up investigation.  We have MUFON
>>investigators driving hundreds of miles to meet with a witness
>>who fails to show.  Sometimes they refuse to fill out the papers
>>or sign their name.

>And what do you have if they DO sign their name?  Just another
>sighting to add to the thousands of others filed away in dusty
>files -- since the 1950s, for heaven's sake!  So what!

>>I wish to thank those investigators who have driven the miles,
>>spent their time and written the reports.  One investigation
>>done correctly can take days.  MUFON and most UFO organizations are
>>strictly volunteer with no pay.  Expenses are not paid, and a
>>great deal of time and effort is spent.  The investigators
>>deserve a medal, a thank you, and a well done.  They are the
>>heroes of this field.

>And, it seems to me, dumber than dirt.  Why spend any more time
>and money on this activity?  What does it gain you!  Don't you
>know that Richard Hall's house is near unto bursting with file
>cabinet after file cabinet of UFO reports, all just as
>"verified" as the latest thing MUFON is doing!  What in heaven's
>name will piling up more of THESE do to move things along?

>>Anyone who claims to possess startling UFO information should be
>>able to provide at a minimum there military or government
>>records, ID cards, college transcripts and similar evidence to
>>prove their backgrounds and employment.

<snip>

>First, a Clarkism: "there" should be "their."  And, of course, I
>agree -- all of these people should be vetted. . .as should all
>the OTHER people in this field who have positions from which
>they may pontificate!  Why stop with the new guys, huh?

<snip>

>Well, thanks, since you are my Silver Standard in ufologists!

>>To those who desire to learn the truth about UFOs, I encourage
>>you to read information from the respected leaders in the field
>>such as Richard H. Hall's "Perspectives" column.  It's published
>>monthly in the "MUFON UFO Journal."

>Ah, yes, my Gold Standard for ufologists IS Mr. Hall!
>>"MUFON UFO Journal"] makes me think about how the sociological
>>aspects of the UFO movement distract from the physical science
>>aspects.

>Mr. Hall is a well-respected physical scientist with a huge
>budget for instrumented scientific analysis of high flying UFOs!

>>News media gleefully report on the colorful personalities, the
>>more paranoid the better, but where is their reporting on the
>>potentially important airline pilot sightings of the past few
>>years?

>So what if they WERE reported -- are they any different from
>10,000 other sightings by airline pilots since 1947?

<snip>

>>Obviously, Bell is viewed by the media as representative of the
>>UFO field, even as guru for ufologists.  Well, count me out.
>>Let's stick to facts, logic, and science.

>Ah, yes, but that's HALL'S "facts, logic and science!"

>>Thanks to Bob Soetebier and the December '98 MUFON Journal, p18.

>Thanks, indeed!

>Gary Alevy


Gary,

These are selected snips from your post that I think illustrate
your caustic and hostile attitude toward Jerry Clark, Richard
Hall and MUFON investigators (like myself). I had to look at
your displays of hostility even when other researchers were
being civil to you and only asking you to prove what you were
saying in your posts. Bruce Evans received the same treatment. I
respect the work of the above people and despise seeing you
resort to character assasination. I don't know what drives your
cynicism and hatred. Perhaps a qualified therapist would be able
to help you understand yourself and your obvious self hatred.

Perhaps then you will drop your hateful attitude and actually
begin to finally contribute something to this field. Judging by
the work of Jerome Clark and Richard Hall you may after years be
worthy of licking their boots.

Gary, don't vent on me. I've seen more than enough of your
ugliness in far too many posts. I will not stoop to respond to
you.

Josh Goldstein
(lowly MUFON investigator dumb as dirt)





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 17

             Re: Official US Air Force 'Roswell Incident' Report

From: Josh Goldstein <clearlt@pacbell.net>
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 02:56:41 -0800
Fwd Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 15:12:16 -0500
Subject: Re: Official US Air Force 'Roswell Incident' Report


>Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 08:30:36 +0000
>Subject: Re: Official US Air Force 'Roswell Incident'   Report
>From: Bob Shell <bob@bobshell.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>

>>Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 17:25:49 -0500
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>From: Steven W. Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
>>Subject: Re: Official US Air Force 'Roswell Incident' Report

>>>Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 16:22:35 -0800
>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>>From: Neil Morris <neil@adm1.ph.man.ac.uk>
>>>Subject: Re: Official US Air Force 'Roswell Incident' Report

>><snip>

>>>Of course some nice helpfull person may think to try and get the
>>>Cc out of the archives under the FOIA?.

><snip>

>>It is my understanding that the Air Force had a duplicate of the
>>negative made in 1994 (or thereabouts) as part of their
>>investigation in anticipation of the GAO probe, but it would
>>have already sustained the damages mentioned.

>>If we have reason to believe that a duplicate was made at the
>>time, then we could make the request of the Archives.

>Steve,

>Either you are misinterpreting Neil's post or I am.  I thought
>he was talking about trying to get a copy of the _telegram_ via
>FOIA, not a copy of the negative.  Even the best copy negative
>would have less information than the original, even in its
>present state.  But if the telegram was filed after the event, a
>copy of it may well exist in some file.

>Bob

Bob, it would be worth a try to see if a copy of that telegram
exists but I would not be surprised if the Air Force response
would be that if it existed it probably disappeared in one of
the missing Roswell files.

Josh





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 17

                       Notice For All UFO Researchers

From: Philip Mantle <el51@dial.pipex.com>
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 18:53:46 +0000
Fwd Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 15:17:36 -0500
Subject: Notice For All UFO Researchers

Dear colleagues,

The UK based London Weeken Television company are currently
looking for UFO's captured on film for a documentary they are
working on. To this effect they have asked me to circulate the
following:

UFO SIGHTINGS

Have you got footage of UFO's ? You could make =A3200.

An ITV documentary will pay =A3200 for your clip, if used. Please
telephone (UK) 0171 578 4410, or e-mail:
Claire.O'Donohoe@granadamedia.com


Regards,


Philip Mantle.







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 17

                       'Tent Footage' Finally Exposed!

From: Tim Matthews <matthews@zetnet.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 01:53:48 -0000
Fwd Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 15:19:45 -0500
Subject: 'Tent Footage' Finally Exposed!


Last year independent UFO researchers Phil Mantle and Tim
Matthews conducted an in-depth investigation into the possible
UK origins of the so-called "Tent Footage" after Phil was
contacted by an insider with intriguing information on making of
the film.

It subsequently emerged that this was a very low-budget UK
production undertaken by people associated with ARK Music Ltd.
of Milton Keynes, an outfit owned by Andy Price-Watts and Keith
Bateman.

Thanks to our efforts a full expose of this sorry affair
appeared in today's "Mail on Sunday" (UK) newspaper. The two
page article by journalist Nick Fielding included further
details of the making of the film and information about Ray
Santilli's relationship with ARK Music Ltd.

Once again we have been able to penetrate the web of lies
surrounding an important UFO hoax.

Tim Matthews - Lancashire UFO Society/British UFO Studies
Centre.





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 17

                          BWW Media Alert 19990117

From: BufoCalvin@aol.com
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 09:20:32 EST
Fwd Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 15:21:12 -0500
Subject: BWW Media Alert 19990117

Bufo Calvin
P O Box 5231, Walnut Creek, CA  94596
Internet: BufoCalvin@aol.com
Website: <A HREF="http://members.aol.com/bufocalvin">http://members.aol.com/bufo
calvin<;/a>
<A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/redirect-home/bufosweirdworld"> Link
to Amazon.com</a>
ALL RIGHTS RESERVED (permission is granted to reproduce or redistribute this edi
tion of Bufo's WEIRD WORLD provided that attribution is made to http://members.a
ol.com/bufocalvin. It is good etiquette to check with strangers before you e-mai
l them something.  If you forward this, please make sure it is clear that you ar
e forwarding it).


January 17, 1999

The NOVA episode on Nessie was interesting.  While it was by no means an
endorsement, it treated the participants kindly.  It seemed to appreciate
their drive and innovation, and sympathize with the hurdles (such as lack of
funding and lack of support)...sort of like what a documentary on the Apollo
moon mission might do, if we had remained Earthbound.


On to the listings: Times are generally Pacific.

TELEVISION

THE DISCOVERY CHANNEL

Tuesday, January 19, 8:00 PM, INSIDE AREA 51
Tuesday, January 19, 11:00 PM, INSIDE AREA 51
Thursday, January 21, 10:00 PM, INTO THE UNKNOWN: MYSTERIOUS HAPPENINGS (crop
circles; disappearing houses)
Friday, January 22, 1:00 AM, INTO THE UNKNOWN: MYSTERIOUS HAPPENINGS (crop
circles; disappearing houses)
Saturday, January 23, 1:00 PM, INTO THE UNKNOWN: MYSTERIOUS HAPPENINGS (crop
circles, disappearing houses)
Next Sunday, January 24, 4:00 PM, INSIDE AREA 51
Next Thursday, January 28, 10:00 PM, INTO THE UNKNOWN: CREATURES IN THE
SHADOWS
Next Friday, January 29, 1:00 AM, INTO THE UNKNOWN: CREATURES IN THE SHADOWS

THE DISNEY CHANNEL

Next Sunday, January24, 5:45 PM, GOING WILD! WITH JEFF CORWIN (includes
bigfoot)

PBS

Look for many stations to repeat (at their own whim, apparently) last week's
NOVA episode on the Loch Ness monster.

THE SCIENCE CHANNEL

The new schedule (since December 28, 1998) is weird programming for an hour
each at 3:00 AM, 11:00 AM,and 7:00 PM. Alternating shows are: INTO THE UNKNOWN
and ARTHUR C. CLARKE'S MYSTERIOUS UNIVERSE. They also run a Roswell show now
every other week (it's probably the same show every time) at 4:00 AM and noon
on Sundays.

THE SCI-FI CHANNEL

Tuesday, January 19, 11:00 AM,, SIGHTINGS: EPISODE #3015 (haunted highway;
UFOs; psychic detective; "hearing" sights, "smelling" sounds, etc.)
Wednesday, January 20, 11:00 AM, SIGHTINGS: EPISODE #3016 (exorcism; Orson
Welles and voodoo; Earth energy; Gaia; alien abduction)
Thursday, January 21, 11:00 AM, SIGHTINGS: EPISODE #3017 (USS Franklin D.
Roosevelt encounter; past lives; time travel)
Friday, January 22, 11:00 AM, SIGHTINGS: EPISODE #3018 (UFO and crash of P-51;
spontaneous human combustion; rumors about the Denver airport)
Tuesday, January 26, 11:00 AM, SIGHTINGS: EPISODE #3019 (Mexican UFOs; psychic
twins; cloning)
Wednesday, January 27, 11:00 AM, SIGHTINGS: EPISODE #3020 (Pacific Northwest
UFOs; luck; psychic detective; haunted hotel in California)
Thursday, January 28, 11:00 AM, SIGHTINGS: EPISODE #3021 (secret government
UFO research; Roswell; psychic detective; cemetery haunting)
Friday, January 29, 11:00 AM, SIGHTINGS: EPISODE #3022 (twins abducted by
aliens; artificial intelligence; haunting; angels)

SYNDICATED

Thursday, January 21, MONTEL WILLIAMS: psychic Sylvia Browne
___________________________

This is Bufo saying, "If =everything= seemed normal, that =would= be weird!"
____________________________

You can stop receiving this from me just by asking (note: it is commonly
redistributed, and I can't control you getting it from those sources) by
e-mail at BufoCalvin@aol.com.  You can also subscribe or unsubscribe to
Bufo's WEIRD WORLD Media Alert the same way. Also, please let me know if
there is something in the media you think I should cover. Deadline is Tuesday, t
he week before.
_____________________________





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 17

                           Larry Mauk Contact Info

From: Patricia Mason <pmason@ee.net>
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 10:14:46 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 15:23:21 -0500
Subject: Larry Mauk Contact Info


For search see:

http://x500.ksc.nasa.gov/x500.html

FYI,

Pat

--------------------------------------------------------
Found match on exact
Larry Mauk-1
cn
Lawrence T Mauk 1
Lawrence T Mauk
Lawrence Mauk
Larry Mauk-1
Larry Mauk
l
Kennedy Space Center, Florida
st
Florida
postalAddress
AB-F2
Kennedy Space Center, FL 32899
postalCode
32899
physicalDeliveryOfficeName
Kennedy Space Center
telephoneNumber
+1 407 867-3341
+1 407 867-2363
facsimileTelephoneNumber
+1 407 867-2097
mailCode
AB-F2
mail
Larry.Mauk-1@kmail.ksc.nasa.gov
roomNumber
Building: VC, Room: 2410
userClass
Organization: AB-F2, Employer: NASA - KSC
uniqueIdentifier
KS929E93
EMailAddr
mauklt@kscgws00.ksc.nasa.gov [Y]
See all attributes





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 17

                      Re: Military Retirees and Secrecy

From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 10:29:20 EST
Fwd Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 15:26:14 -0500
Subject: Re: Military Retirees and Secrecy


There are certainly hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of
people who have served in the military or worked for the Federal
Government and have taken security oaths or worked under
security restrictions.  For the most part, these restrictions
have certainly worked.

In today's New York Times an article relates how a book
manuscript by former UN arms inspector Scott Ritter has been
requested for censorship by the Pentagon, suppposedly because of
criticism Ritter has made about U.S. policy.

Have there ever been any documented instances of such attempted
prior censorship involving any UFO sources?  If followers of
this list could provide instances of such events, it would help
us move from hypothetical and theoretic discussions to fact.

Any known instances, ladies and gentlemen?

Bob Young





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 17

                       Re: R.A.M.S. - A Parting Shot?

From: judithdale <judithdale@earthlink.net>
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 12:20:34 -0800
Fwd Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 15:33:28 -0500
Subject: Re: R.A.M.S. - A Parting Shot?


>Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 17:23:35 +0000
>From: Robert A. M. Stephens <sti3818@montana.com>
>To: UFO Updates Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>,
>Subject: R.A.M.S. - A Parting Shot?

>>From Joe Frimage

>>I, for one, believe this debate should occur. >>

I am adding my voice to Mr. Firmage's, I too believe this debate
should occur.

>>From Gersten to Firmage:

>And why is that, Joe?  Why do you think Richard should 'debate'
>an admitted and proven charlatan?  I would suggest you see Patch
>Adams instead.  Remember that old saying...'fool me once...shame
>on you; fool me twice...shame on me?' What do you think happens
>the third time?


Do we know, really, that Mr. Stephens is a fraud? I think not.
He certainly has brought information to the fore that no one
else has. Mr. Theroux has posted on his site, Borderlands,
information about the NORAD fence, as well as information
pertaining to the continued use of the SR-71 craft as a
strategic air asset. This information is real and true. So he
stepped on some toes. Big deal. There's much worse going on.

Considering that we as humans are likely facing beings with a
technology that far surpasses ours, and whose intent is
suspicious, at the very least, I say we need all of the info we
can amass. Let's not shoot good messengers, whose style may not
be liked.

I am of the belief, that just because these reported beings have
great technology, is no guarantee that they have their act any
more together than we do. Ignorance is dangerous and
disempowering. So I say, let Mr. Stephens have at it.

>Hi Peter  (from Fraud)

>Heeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeessssssssssssssss back......el
>capitano'.

>I believe I can answer your question to Mr. Firmage,  my dear
>Peter,  at least in part.

>The third time always results in a reimbursement of the second.
>Art Bell -Hoagland-CAUS & Co.  should have reason to look back
>across the gulf of events and look at the situation quite
>carefully,  then.

>Too,  it will be fitting that even a Fraud will be able to
>divulge more Fraud,  since it takes a thief to find a thief.
>You should be so wise.

>I'm  back.  We got 199 questions to answer.  They should be
>asked by someone at the very bottom of the social food chain.
>That,   I believe,  in this venue, at this current moment,  is
>me.

I am terribly curious to hear the questions and the response.
I've had many questions regarding Mr. Hoagland's information
myself.

>Behold

Good idea. Let's.

Judith Dale





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 17

                                     Re:

From: Jose Escamilla <rods@rmi.net>
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 13:15:46 +0300
Fwd Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 15:35:15 -0500
Subject: Re:


RODS 1999

Well, it's 1999 and we are in pursuit of getting the Rods
phenomenon finally known among the general audiences as much as
Kal Korff's Fox Show about hoaxes garnered a few minds from the
gene pool.

It has been a very trying four years to get the Rods phenomenon
to where it is today and I must state that we have made great
strides with this case.

First of all it took time to get the Rods phenomenon into
certain media circles including the web, print media and
television / radio talk shows. I appeared on anything from
Sightings to "People Who Have Sex With Aliens" on the LEEZA
Show, in order to present our case. Kal Korff was on Leeza with
me along with another skeptic who said the clip he saw looked
like a bird flying past the camera.

Of course he was wrong, as Kal Korff and Bob Shell have been
wrong about the common mis-interpretation that all we have been
presenting were mis-filmed insects or birds. I sent Bob a video
and he never responded.

In the upcoming series "STRANGE SCIENCE" to air on The Learning
Channel (TLC) the first week of February everyone will get to
see Rods as we've been investigating them for the past four
years. The nine minute segment covers my presentation at the
June 98 - International MUFON UFO Symposium, where I, along with
Jim Peters, presented Rods - The Smoking Gun Evidence video to a
packed house of 300 attendees from all fields of study:
UFOlogists, Scientists and the grand daddy of all skeptics Mr.
Philip Klass.

This was a unique presentation in that I finally, after four
years of trying, was allowed to present the Rods case in front
of a very skeptical and well known group of individuals that
have "heard" about Rods but that never had seen what we have
been talking about all these years.

Philip Klass sat front row and center during my presentation
with his pocket recorder in hand. He listened and recorded
everything Jim Peters and I stated prior to the running of the
video and afterwards during the question and answers session of
the lecture.

The TLC cameras ran during the complete presentation and Karen
Taylor, who produced the segment, made certain that Philip Klass
would be interviewed for the show.

After the lecture I approached Mr. Klass about what he thought.
He didn't call it a hoax or mis-filmed insects, jets, or the
planet Venus zipping around, because in the presentation we
prove that Rods are "not" any of these mis-construed claims made
by most skeptics and critics. In fact, Philip Klass felt that he
would like to see better imagery of these "things" as he put it.
He felt that they "may be" artifacts caused by CCD electronics
in the camcorders used to videotape them.

The camera man for TLC quickly said, "This guy's full of it." I
on the other hand have been inclined to dispell as many myths
about the Rods as I can with the resources we currently have.

So, in our quest to further this investigation, Jim Peters, Ken
Swartz (a new associate and team member), set out to see "if in
fact" Rods or fast objects traveling distances from the camera
would create a "blur" because of the electronics involved in CCD
photography - or videography.

We videotaped an 16 1/2"arrow (bolt) using Jim's crossbow that
shoots these bolts at approximately 136 mph. We wanted to see
what the bolt would look like at distances from 10 feet to 100
feet away from a ribbon that was stretched across two poles. The
poles were 24 feet apart and the yellow ribbon had segments with
six foot long markers. We used the Sony VX-1000 digital
camcorder that most of the current Rod shots have been captured
on in New Jersey, South Dakota and The cave in Mexico.

We we found was that using the optical lens setting at 1/10,000
shutter setting, the bolt - or arrow, appears as it really is: a
16 1/2" arrow. And it appears in two to three frame of video
shot at 30fps.

Then came the big test. Videotaping the arrow with the digital
zoom set at full capacity. We had the camera 100 feet away from
the target test area and I "zoomed in" all the way to a point
where the central section of the six foot long marker at the
center of the target section was in the frame. Jim shot the
arrow and guess what. Even using the electronic digital zoom on
the camcorder we were able to see that the arrow maintained it's
correct length on video! You could see that it's integrety in
size was not blurred at all. The only artifact that was created
with digital zoom was that the arrow was slightly out of focus.
In otherwords, it still looked like a 16 1/2" bolt, but it was
slightly blurred. Not an elongated blur, but a blurred object.
This revealed to us that using the Sony VX-1000 camcorder as has
been used in all the cave footage, what you see is what you get.

This puts a clam into Philip Klass and his CCD electronic
artifact theory, which we know is all he had to go on.

All thoughts aside, we know we have the genuine thing here. Rods
are very real and no matter how many other claims can be put
into the mix, we know that we can disprove all of them. It just
takes time and testing in order to prove that what we have been
reporting are simple things known to man.

I ask that everyone on this forum tunes in to the TLC program
which will air at 8:00 pm for five days the first week of
February. I don't know which day the Rods segment will air, but
it will be during that week. (Feb 1-5,1999).

For those of you inclined to do so, check out our Rods web site
and send the URL to your contacts: http://www.roswellrods.com.

To all our supporters out there we thank you for sticking to our
"smoking guns." For all of our skeptics and critics out
there...well...without you guys we wouldn't have proven our
case.

Thanks to all.

Best Wishes for 1999 - Rods baby...Rods!

Jose Escamilla





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 17

                      'Rods' - On The Learning Channel

From: Jose Escamilla <rods@rmi.net>
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 13:15:46 +0300
Fwd Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 15:57:23 -0500
Subject: 'Rods' - On The Learning Channel


RODS 1999

Well, it's 1999 and we are in pursuit of getting the Rods
phenomenon finally known among the general audiences as much as
Kal Korff's Fox Show about hoaxes garnered a few minds from the
gene pool.

It has been a very trying four years to get the Rods phenomenon
to where it is today and I must state that we have made great
strides with this case.

First of all it took time to get the Rods phenomenon into
certain media circles including the web, print media and
television / radio talk shows. I appeared on anything from
Sightings to "People Who Have Sex With Aliens" on the LEEZA
Show, in order to present our case. Kal Korff was on Leeza with
me along with another skeptic who said the clip he saw looked
like a bird flying past the camera.

Of course he was wrong, as Kal Korff and Bob Shell have been
wrong about the common mis-interpretation that all we have been
presenting were mis-filmed insects or birds. I sent Bob a video
and he never responded.

In the upcoming series "STRANGE SCIENCE" to air on The Learning
Channel (TLC) the first week of February everyone will get to
see Rods as we've been investigating them for the past four
years. The nine minute segment covers my presentation at the
June 98 - International MUFON UFO Symposium, where I, along with
Jim Peters, presented Rods - The Smoking Gun Evidence video to a
packed house of 300 attendees from all fields of study:
UFOlogists, Scientists and the grand daddy of all skeptics Mr.
Philip Klass.

This was a unique presentation in that I finally, after four
years of trying, was allowed to present the Rods case in front
of a very skeptical and well known group of individuals that
have "heard" about Rods but that never had seen what we have
been talking about all these years.

Philip Klass sat front row and center during my presentation
with his pocket recorder in hand. He listened and recorded
everything Jim Peters and I stated prior to the running of the
video and afterwards during the question and answers session of
the lecture.

The TLC cameras ran during the complete presentation and Karen
Taylor, who produced the segment, made certain that Philip Klass
would be interviewed for the show.

After the lecture I approached Mr. Klass about what he thought.
He didn't call it a hoax or mis-filmed insects, jets, or the
planet Venus zipping around, because in the presentation we
prove that Rods are "not" any of these mis-construed claims made
by most skeptics and critics. In fact, Philip Klass felt that he
would like to see better imagery of these "things" as he put it.
He felt that they "may be" artifacts caused by CCD electronics
in the camcorders used to videotape them.

The camera man for TLC quickly said, "This guy's full of it." I
on the other hand have been inclined to dispell as many myths
about the Rods as I can with the resources we currently have.

So, in our quest to further this investigation, Jim Peters, Ken
Swartz (a new associate and team member), set out to see "if in
fact" Rods or fast objects traveling distances from the camera
would create a "blur" because of the electronics involved in CCD
photography - or videography.

We videotaped an 16 1/2"arrow (bolt) using Jim's crossbow that
shoots these bolts at approximately 136 mph. We wanted to see
what the bolt would look like at distances from 10 feet to 100
feet away from a ribbon that was stretched across two poles. The
poles were 24 feet apart and the yellow ribbon had segments with
six foot long markers. We used the Sony VX-1000 digital
camcorder that most of the current Rod shots have been captured
on in New Jersey, South Dakota and The cave in Mexico.

We we found was that using the optical lens setting at 1/10,000
shutter setting, the bolt - or arrow, appears as it really is: a
16 1/2" arrow. And it appears in two to three frame of video
shot at 30fps.

Then came the big test. Videotaping the arrow with the digital
zoom set at full capacity. We had the camera 100 feet away from
the target test area and I "zoomed in" all the way to a point
where the central section of the six foot long marker at the
center of the target section was in the frame. Jim shot the
arrow and guess what. Even using the electronic digital zoom on
the camcorder we were able to see that the arrow maintained it's
correct length on video! You could see that it's integrety in
size was not blurred at all. The only artifact that was created
with digital zoom was that the arrow was slightly out of focus.
In otherwords, it still looked like a 16 1/2" bolt, but it was
slightly blurred. Not an elongated blur, but a blurred object.
This revealed to us that using the Sony VX-1000 camcorder as has
been used in all the cave footage, what you see is what you get.

This puts a clam into Philip Klass and his CCD electronic
artifact theory, which we know is all he had to go on.

All thoughts aside, we know we have the genuine thing here. Rods
are very real and no matter how many other claims can be put
into the mix, we know that we can disprove all of them. It just
takes time and testing in order to prove that what we have been
reporting are simple things known to man.

I ask that everyone on this forum tunes in to the TLC program
which will air at 8:00 pm for five days the first week of
February. I don't know which day the Rods segment will air, but
it will be during that week. (Feb 1-5,1999).

For those of you inclined to do so, check out our Rods web site
and send the URL to your contacts: http://www.roswellrods.com.

To all our supporters out there we thank you for sticking to our
"smoking guns." For all of our skeptics and critics out
there...well...without you guys we wouldn't have proven our
case.

Thanks to all.

Best Wishes for 1999 - Rods baby...Rods!





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 17

                       Re: Military Retirees & Secrecy

From: judithdale <judithdale@earthlink.net>
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 12:45:04 -0800
Fwd Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 21:11:04 -0500
Subject: Re: Military Retirees & Secrecy


>Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 18:53:01 -0600
>From: Dave Vetterick <veterick@ix.netcom.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: Military Retirees & Secrecy

>>From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
>>Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 09:13:13 EST
>>To: updates@globalserve.net
>>Subject: Re: Military Retirees & Secrecy

>>Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 17:50:20 +0000
>>From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>Subject: Military Retirees & Secrecy

>>>Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 16:46:28 -0600
>>>From: Dave Vetterick <veterick@ix.netcom.com>
>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>>Subject: Re: Military Retirees & Secrecy
>
>>>>Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 23:32:40 -0800
>>>>From: Judith Dale <judithdale@earthlink.net>
>>>>To: UFO UpDates-Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>>>Subject: Military Retirees & Secrecy

>EBK and List :

>EBK evidently felt otherwise. In posting my message to the list
>he snipped Judith's post right after her opening paragraph.
>
>Perhaps I should have written my reply differently. I apologize.
>However, the snip to Judith's message coming where it did has
>caused some confusion which I'll attempt to clarify while at the
>same time responding to Kevin and Roger's posts also noted
>above.

Yes, I've noticed the confusion. Actually, its been interesting
to watch information get skewed simply because its taken out of
context.

>Here is the pertinent part of Judith's message:

>>The experience that I have is with my partner's dad, who is a
>>retired Lt. Colonel, USAF intelligence. In response to questions
>>about UFO's and the involvement of the Air Force, he will only
>>say that alot has gone on and to talk about it would put him,
>>and us, in terrible danger. This doesn't sound like a fear of
>>loosing his pension, to me. This is a man who started in the
>>Army and became Air Force in 1947. The Air Force subsequently
>>paid for him to get a graduate degree in communications at Yale.

>She goes on to speak about a notebook with drawings of Greys
>which I'm sure we'd all love to see. She concludes with:

>>We have all found his refusal to tell us anything to be
>>incredibly frustrating. He is now in his 80's, but insists that
>>what he knows will go to the grave with him. He is adamant that
>>it is not safe for him to speak. Fear of lost pension? I don't
>>think so. This is also a man who was rah, rah military, and now
>>vehemently hates the military. Curious.

>Kevin, my original point was NOT questioning or belittling the
>man's right to continue to honor his oath if he so chooses, as
>seems to be your impression of what I was saying.

>My question was and still is...What is the basis for the fear
>that if he talked it would put him, AND HIS IMMEDIATE FAMILY, in
>"terrible danger", and "it is not SAFE for him to speak".

>This implies bodily harm would come about if he spoke about 30
>year old UFO related military secrets.

>Roger, no offense, but suggesting the government and military is
>going to inflict illegal bodily harm over this and could get
>away with it, as you said they likely did over the Contra
>dealings, is far fetched and bordering on paranoia in my
>opinion.

>Intimidation is a tool, but to suggest in this day and time that
>the military could threaten anything other than putting a person
>in Ft. Leavenworth much less illegal bodily harm to a person's
>family, and get away with it just isn't realistic.

>Judith said this gentleman now "vehemently hates the military".
>So the obvious conclusion she makes herself is that its not the
>oath keeping him silent, but the fear of bodily harm.

>What was the nature of the threat, and who made it?

Ofcourse, we don't know the nature of the threat, or who made
it. The sense of family members is not so much that the danger
is from "bodily harm" by agents of the military, as it is some
bigger threat.

>I've seen this claim of fear tossed around many times but there
>never is any elaboration of the exact nature of the this
>physical threat. I'm not questioning Judith's or anyone's
>integrity. Just asking for details of this threat.

FYI, I don't feel that my integrity has been challenged. Quite
frankly, I'm clueless about the details of the threat, because
Bill isn't telling us anymore than he has already. I just know
that he was a Lt. Colonel in Air force Intelligence, responsible
for a good deal of the Pacific Northwest.

The threat may not have been one of "bodily harm". For all we
know, the danger may be in some threat to the human
socio/cultural/political paradigm.

>If I were illegally threatened this way by the military, or any
>REAL government agency I'd be on CNN and MSNBC within the hour.


I don't think it serves any of us  to make assumptions about
what the threats involve.

Suffice to say, they were made and those of us who've not had to
take secrecy vows, won't know the nature of the threat, unless
one who does know tells us. In addition, I am quite comfortable
with my personal truths, gained from several years of life
experience. I don't feel any urgency to have the government, or
anyone else, validate my truth. I would like to know what the
government, or extra-government is doing about the intruders.
Ofcourse, the fact is, they may not be able to do anything, so
it falls to the rest of us.

Judith Dale





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 17

                             Re: 'Confirmation'?

From: Scott Carr <sardonica@erols.com>
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 15:42:20 -0800
Fwd Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 21:12:40 -0500
Subject: Re: 'Confirmation'?


>Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 00:09:31 -0500
>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
>Subject: Confirmation?
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>

>I have looked at the Confirmation web site:

>www.confirmation.net

I was amazed to note a few days ago in the "links" section of
their website that they listed Billy Meier as an "Expert!" Not
to mention the lack of recognizable experts that should have
been listed. Yikes!

When I emailed to call them on this, they responded that the
site was still under construction and that the link would be
changed within four weeks.

I wonder how much input Strieber has in this?


-Scott C. Carr

Editor, The Flying Saucer Gazette
http://www.erols.com/sardonica

Producer, "UFO Desk"
99.5 FM WBAI, NY






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 17

                       Re: Military Retirees & Secrecy

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 99 15:41:16 PST
Fwd Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 21:14:24 -0500
Subject: Re: Military Retirees & Secrecy


>Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 22:40:08 +0000
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: John Rimmer  <magonia@magonia.demon.co.uk>
>Subject: Re: Military Retirees & Secrecy

>>Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 10:53:34 -0800 (PST)
>>From: Scott LeGrand <varelse@best.com>
>>To: updates@globalserve.net
>>Subject: Re: Military Retirees & Secrecy

>>>Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 11:12:44 +0000
>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>>From: John Rimmer <magonia@magonia.demon.co.uk>
>>>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Military Retirees & Secrecy

>Maybe, but there's still a helluvalot more money in gullibilty
>than scepticism. I just want to make it clear that the alleged
>great public hostility to UFO experients is largely a myth.

Ah, if only this were true.  The enormous amount of attention
UFOs and UFO-related subjects gets only enhances the climate of
ridicule surrounding ufology, sadly.  In a sense, no publicity
would be preferable to the sort of publicity UFOs get here. With
rare exception, positive treatments of UFOs get the tabloid
treatment, trivializing the subject and providing yet more
fodder for stand-up comics and self-righteous debunkers.  With
rare exception, elite media -- which set the agenda for
"responsible" opinion on UFOs and other matters  -- treat
ufology with contempt as a fringe pursuit.  It all ends up
sounding like something out of the CSICOP hymn book.

As a historian of this subject, I am frankly amazed that more
than five decades into the public phase of this phenomenon,
science and elite opinion continue to resist the simple notion
that there may be something interesting here, something that
deserves more attention and a better explanation than it has
receive heretofore. If anything, UFOs are subjected to more
ridicule than ever.  The silliness and excess of some UFO
enthusiasts haven't helped, but I doubt that it is the main
cause.  If they choose, intelligent people can tell the
difference between such trivial concerns and the more serious
questions raised by the persistence of puzzling UFO sightings.
In any case, ufologists as such simply lack the influence to
influence opinion, even in a negative direction, all that much.

There was a time when a well-regarded, much-read, mainstream
magazine such as Life could not only deal seriously with UFOs
but argue seriously for the possibility of ET visitation.  No
magazine could do that today.  In fact, it's hard to imagine
that any comparable publication would treat UFOs as deserving
any more than a passing sneer.  True, the Sturrock panel's very
cautious conclusions did get some respectful attention; they
also got their share of rhetorical abuse; for details, go to
jse.com.

UFOs, sad to say, are a subject for a future generation to take
up and do justice by.   Till then, ridicule calls the tune.

Jerry Clark






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 17

               Re: Truth Detracting Elements of the Abduction

From: Ed Stewart <ufoindex@jps.net>
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 13:33:50 -0800
Fwd Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 21:30:37 -0500
Subject: Re: Truth Detracting Elements of the Abduction


>Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 19:56:55 -0800
>From: Steve Jones <svjones@jps.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: Truth Detracting Elements of the Abduction Phenomena

>Greetings-

Greetings, Steve Jones:

Are you the same Steve Jones that is so much in love with
himself that has difficulty writing a sentence without the word
"I" in it?  Are you the same Steve Jones that plotted with
Richard Boylan to invade my privacy and to go through my trash
cans? Are you the same Steve Jones that lied to Joe Ball and got
him from your then BBS to threaten myself and family causing me
to file a petition in court for a restraining order, the results
of which were a signed confession by Joe Ball that you were the
instigator of the whole affair? Are you the same Steve Jones
that was ostricised from the Sacramento UFO Group (SUFOG),
kicked out for life from the FIDONET UFO discussion group by the
then owner and moderator and from John Powell's BAMA UFO
discussion groups? Are you the Steve Jones that has lost most of
his friends in the UFO field, including posters to this list
such as Clark Hathaway, because of your insidious lies and
fabrications? I believe you are!

>I have had about 10 years of experience with informal
>observation of numerous individuals who have allegedly
>experienced an abduction involving what they described as a none
>human entity. I come at this, not from the standpoint of a
>clinical professional (although I have a degree in Psychology,
>where I specialized in perception and information processing),
>but rather as a Folklorist ( also am degreed in Anthropology and
>have done graduate work in fringe religions and cults).

Steve Jones, throughout the 90s and before, has been an
automobile service order writer writing up repair service orders
when people bring in their cars for checkups. That is how he
makes a living and how he comes to the UFO field.

>I have
>been doing this type of work for over 30 years now, starting
>with the lore that is very prevalent in the Mount Shasta area of
>California back in 1968.

I first met Steve Jones during the time that Richard T. Miller
(author of Star Wards published by the Solar Cross Foundation
and known hoaxer from the 1950s) was promulgating another hoax:
An underground alien site in the Plumas National Forest in
Northern California back in 1992.  Steve Jones has a reputation
around the Sacramento area: "I never heard a UFO story I didn't
like". Steve Jones was a supporter of Richard T. Miller.

>Although I have seen instances of what could be described as a
>"Stockholm syndrome" (falling in love with your abductor)type
>of reaction, for the most part, these people have experienced
>some very deeply seated trauma.

Why don't you be a little bit more honest. You without any kind
of medical training have convinced alleged abductees to be
placed under hypnosis and under control by you and inflicted
trauma on them yourself. I still have the video tapes given to
me by Chris Stratten that visually show the type of
"investigator" you are.

>I have three very close friends who

I don't know of anyone that at one time was a "close friend" of
Steve Jones in Sacramento that still is. The only exception may
be Richard Boylan.

>have been in this situation and I can tell you that they really
>do not like to open up about it. This includes one who has been
>a combat veteran and has done special ops work for the U.S.
>Army. One of my cases also involved an ex-Navy Seal who
>disappeared in Travis Walton style for over 8 days. He was so
>traumatized that upon recovering, he reported directly to his
>ex-commanding officer, who just so happens to be very high up in
>the chain of command.

Blah, blah, blah! Tell your acquaintance Michael Christol, who
posts to this list, about it. You know, the guy that travelled
all the way to California from Kentucky to see the UFOs you
alleged to be observing everyday with your alcoholic friend.
Only to find out on arrival that the alleged UFOs were shy and
didn't want to be noticed by far away strangers.

>The point here is the abduction scenario, regardless of what
>people would like to make out of it in defense of their
>particular world view, is something that needs very serious
>scientific inquiry. This is precisely what motivated John Mack
>to do what he has done, regardless of the consequences.

Why don't you tell the list about your support for Richard
Boylan and your real feelings?

>Continuously over the past decade I have heard the rants of
>those who demand that proof be personally delivered to their
>doorstep and this continues to this day. To be frank, I have
>long ago grown bored of this, however nothing would give me
>greater pleasure than to take some skeptics right up to the
>side of a large craft and let them touch it themselves. Who
>knows, sometime in the future, this might happen.

Before it happens, people on this list and especially abductees
and experiencers, need to know what you Steve Jones is all
about. You are without a doubt about the worst thing that can
happen to an abductee/experiencer. Caveat Emptor.

Ed Stewart

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ed Stewart ufoindex@jps.net|So Man, who here seems principal alone,
There Is Something         |Perhaps acts second to some sphere unknown.
   Going On!       ,>'?'<, |Touches some wheel, or verges to some goal,
Salvador Freixedo  ( O O ) |'Tis but a part we see, and not a whole.
---------------ooOO-(_)-OOoo------- Alexander Pope, Essay on Man -------





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 18

                        Anchorage phenomena of 1/8/99

From: Geri & Alfred Webre <Ecotoday@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 16:51:43 EST
Fwd Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 10:07:58 -0500
Subject: Anchorage phenomena of 1/8/99


Hi!

We are trying to locate an URL or report describing the large
lights or electromagnetic pulse events that reportedly took
place over Anchorage, Alaska on or about 1/8/99.  We missed any
posts that may have described these phenomena.

Can anyone e-mail us a reference?

Many thanks,

Geri & Alfred Webre
Vancouver, BC





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 18

               Re: Truth Detracting Elements of the Abduction

From: "Tim D. Brigham" <devilsad@ksinc.net>
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 17:36:12 -0600
Fwd Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 10:09:59 -0500
Subject: Re: Truth Detracting Elements of the Abduction


>Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 19:56:55 -0800
>From: Steve Jones <svjones@jps.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: Truth Detracting Elements of the Abduction Phenomena


<snip>

>The point here is the abduction scenario, regardless of what
>people would like to make out of it in defense of their
>particular world view, is something that needs very serious
>scientific inquiry.

Agreed.


>This is precisely what motivated John Mack
>to do what he has done, regardless of the consequences.

Assuming you feel Dr. Mack is engaged in "scientific inquiry"
and not merely promoting _his own_ "particular world view."

I'm all in agreement that the UFO and abduction phenomena should
be studied in a scientific and objective manner, but I suppose
agreeing what is "scientific and objective", and _not_ "the
promotion of one's own world view" _masked_ as science is where
the debate remains.

>Continuously over the past decade I have heard the rants of
>those who demand that proof be personally delivered to their
>doorstep and this continues to this day. To be frank, I have
>long ago grown bored of this, however nothing would give me
>greater pleasure than to take some skeptics right up to the side
>of a large craft and let them touch it themselves. Who knows,
>sometime in the future, this might happen.


Ignoring the part about anyone asking for "proof to be personally
delivered to their doorstep," because I just don't get what you mean
by this in the first place, I believe what you are getting at is the
evidence issue, and I have to assume you are speaking of the
scientific community's ignorance of the nature of the phenomenon and
not those few vocal people who are opposed to the _possibility_ that
the phenomenon may deserve more study.   So you are promoting the
scientific study of the abuduction phenomenon, yet (for reasons you
don't make clear) you feel that trying to validate the very existence
of the phenomenon and trying to study its nature, and components, and
directly studying the phenomenon itself in any other way, in the same
scientific, and of course, critical, manner should be avoided?

Often, I've heard experiencers use the line that "I've seen this
and I know it's real, I don't have to prove it to anyone," (and
of course they certainly don't, but it's not science, by
definition, until it _is_ analyzed by objective and impartial
persons in a methodical, critical, yet open minded manner) yet
the very next sentence is often, "now let's look at this
scientifically and stop defending our own personal world views."
I simply don't see this as productive, for obvious reasons, and
I think by looking at the (lack of) results these sorts of
methods have obtained, most would agree with me that _something_
is wrong here.


Tim Brigham

)+(
www.ksinc.net/~devilsad/ufo.htm The Devil's Advocate
www.ksinc.net/~devilsad/ring.htm Operation MindPhuck
"Better to go hungry than to feast on lies."
)+(






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 18

                              Re: Confirmation?

From: Mike Farrell <mikefarr@midcoast.com.au>
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 10:37:34 +1100
Fwd Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 10:14:11 -0500
Subject: Re: Confirmation?

>Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 00:09:31 -0500
>From: bruce maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
>Subject: CONFIRMATION?
>Sender: bruce maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>


Hello Updates List,


>In particular, it advertises the Aug. 6, 1997 Mexico City
>video....  which I demonstrated, at the studio which produced
>the NBC show, is a likely hoax (background imagery smeared by
>hand motion; UFO image never smeared by hand motion).

To Bruce and others concerned with the validity of this Mexican
Video;

It's hard to argue with the analysis that qualified
professionals like Bruce Maccabee and Jeff Sanio (MUFON) have
provided to the global UFO research community. Those of us who
sit on the sidelines can only be grateful for their dedication,
time and efforts to help clarify the Truth.

But at the same time, we see the videotaped interviews with
eye-witnesses to this questionable event on Aug. 6, 1997, and we
have to ask; How do we reconsile the witness testimony with the
computer analysis?
________________________________________________________________

Consider this excerpt from my year-end UFO video report from
Australia:

One eye-witness to the Aug. 6th Mexico saucer was 13 year old
Cassandra who said: "I was scared! At first it was still, then
it was wobbling, and then after it balanced, it shot out to the
corner of the building and disappeared!"

Cassandra did not see the TV program by Jamie Maussan that aired
this video on Mexican TV on Sunday, Sept. 28th. She described
the saucer to investigators before seeing the video, which she
then said was exactly what she saw that day in the street.

Another important witness was about a mile north of the building
where the saucer was filmed. The young woman in her late 20's,
Annie Lask, said she had been on the roof of her house on Aug.
6th, when the saucer hovered directly over her. She said, "It
was about 20 meters overhead, the outer rim was spinning real
fast and made hissing sounds. When I realized there was this
weird thing above me, I wanted to take a picture, but when I got
the camera up and turned back, it was gone!"

After the saucer left her in a purple static-like haze, Annie
does not remember getting down from the roof. (missing time?)
She said, "After that day, I've had constant  headaches
everyday, strong headaches, my eyes burn so bad and they still
do!"

In the recent lecture by Jamie Maussan at Leed's UFO Conference
in Sept. 1998, three more eye-witness interviews were presented.
(see Graham Birdsall's UFO Magazine for details on ordering
tapes from this British UFO Conference)

A restuarant manager in his mid 30's was looking up at the rainy
sky outside when he caught a glimpse of the saucer as it moved
behind the buildings. A man in his mid 40's, Alfred Rodriquez,
was in the street with a client, when he too noticed something
that appeared like a round spinning object move between the
buildings. And young David Lask described the same object as he
was outside riding his bike. He thought it was some strange kind
of plane, until he went home and found out his mother, Annie
Lask, had seen the same thing and was quite upset about it.

Jamie Maussan claims he found 12 eye-witnesses to this saucer.
I've seen film with 5 witnesses. Where are the video interviews
of the other 7 eye-witnesses? When will we get the opportunity
to see and hear all the evidence for this dramatic sighting?

____________________________________________________________

Getting to the Bottom Line to the Aug. 6th "wobbling saucer":

Most experts agree that this video is a clever and expensive
"computer-generated hoax". But what about the eye-witnesses? At
least 12 people were out in the street on that cloudy rainy day
and saw something that was extraordinary, yet so brief, that no
one had a chance to call attention to it or to take a picture,
except, of course, the guy with the camcorder.

You listen to these witnesses and watch their eyes, and then
tell me they don't know what they saw or even lied about it just
to impress the UFO   investigators. There's much more to this
case than we are being told about, yet we are willing to dismiss
it so easily, just because it's too good to be true!

So, what are we to do with this eye-witness testimony? Throw it
out because it doesn't fit the "computer hoax theory"? How can
we all see and substantiate the videotaped interviews with these
seemingly honest and sincere ordinary people who happened to
look up and see something extraordinary? How many witnesses
would it take to cast serious doubt on the "computer hoax
theory"?

There are many mysterious and unanswered questions about this
case, including the inability to get into those buildings where
the video was taken and find out if anyone saw this "saucer"
from inside those buildings.

Why are we always left in limbo with these "big and dramatic"
UFO cases? What does the ordinary researcher have to do? Go to
Mexico and do the investigative work himself?

Until we can zero in on an event like this Aug. 6th saucer and
pool our resources and abilities to get to the bottom line,
where the Truth must lie waiting for us, we will remain
suspended in UFO "limbo land".

And we wonder why ufology has such a "gullible reputation"!

___________________________
Think Globally-Act Locally!
Mike Farrell


______________________________
Director of Project GUFONE '98
(Global UFO Newsvideo Exchange)
<http://www.fan.net.au/~tkbnetw/mikes.htm>
<http://www.ufor.asn.au>
------------------------------
P.O.Box 2526
Port Macquarie
New South Wales 2444
Australia

****************************************************************
"And since seldom do instruments record flying saucers, it's the
people who report seeing them that are the most significant way
of getting at the Truth!" (J. Allen Hynek)
****************************************************************





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 18

                Doc Barry August 18, 1927 - January 13, 1999

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 10:38:14 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 10:38:14 -0500
Subject: Doc Barry August 18, 1927 - January 13, 1999





From: SIGHTINGS

URL: http://www.sightings.com/ufo2/docb.htm

Doc Barry Of 'What's Up Doc' Passes On 1-13-99 1-17-99

Doc Barry, well-known internet commentator and pundit has passed
on. He was a unique man who didn't mince words in his sometimes
ascerbic and biting essays. But Doc's wonderful sense of humor
and irony were always lurking...waiting to pounce on the reader.
He always seemed to laugh at the right things and viewed life
through the eyes of someone who sees far more than the average
soul. In tribute, we are reposting one of his most recent
commentaries.

Rest well, Doc. You've earned it.


Doc Barry's Early
Predictions For 1999
By Doc Barry <docbarry@webtv.net>
What's Up Doc?
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Stargate/5518
C.=A91998 by Doc Barry


The Sun will rise in the East every day. There will be floods,
tornados, hurricanes, lightning strikes, forest fires,
mudslides, avalanches, earthquakes, volcano eruptions, plane
crashes, train wrecks, ship sinkings, assassinations, wars,
human rights abuses, destruction of rain forests, and politician
sex scandals.

Another pharmaceutical company will not release its new drug
study because it concluded the placebo worked almost as well as
the drug and without side effects.

Rumors will circulate on the internet about the NSA's plan for
handling massive landings of extraterrestrial spacecraft. The
plan shows how the ET's will be given grants of reserved barren
lands for setting up separated ET communities. Missionaries will
be assigned to offset the infidel religious beliefs of the ET's,
and CIA staff training experts will assist the ET communities on
operating gambling casinos.

BUT ALSO IN 1999 -------

A boy and girl will walk hand-in-hand from the school bus after
their first kiss. A new mother will look down with happy tears
at first glance of a live new infant on her chest.

A father will tell his six-year-old daugther to stand on top of
his shoes, as he teaches her how to dance. A young boy will yell
to his family, "I made the team".

A young girl will be jumping up and down happily, waving her new
driver's license. A woman at bedside in the nursing home will
say, "No, I'll stay and feed her, she's my Mother".

A young father, will command his wife, "Hey, do what I tell you,
stay here with the kids, I'll go in first, it could be
dangerous".

A female lover will ask, "But why marriage now?", and he
replies, "Because I want to keep you all for myself".

A mother will wipe tears from her daughter's eyes, as she
explains that new teeth will come in, and she will be pretty
when she grows up.

A grown daughter at her father's hospital bedside, will say, "I
want to thank you after all these years, for never telling
Mother, just like you promised, you Dad, are the greatest".

An elderly former teacher will wipe away a tear, as she watches
the candidate on TV celebrating his election, as she holds his
thank-you note for keeping him after class, and making him
study.

I predict life will go on in 1999, cats will rub against you,
dogs will wag their tails when they see you, birds will sing,
babies will cry, children will be running and laughing, and
humans will love and need each other.

Life, will be enjoyed in 1999, it's great, enjoy it. Happy New
Year!!!

--Doc Barry

-----

From: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Stargate/5518/


Doc Barry and I were friends for 33 years, and neighbors for the
past seven; Wednesday, January 13th he was admitted to the
hospital with congestive heart failure... he didn't survive.

I'll miss him a great deal, but I won't grieve anymore; not in
the accepted sense of the word, I did that yesterday; from now
on, I'll celebrate his life--

I'll celebrate his life daily with remembrances of our daily
laughter, and with the line: "It's great to be alive in Phoenix,
Arizona" which was followed up immediately with George Burns'
line: "At my age it's great to be alive ANYWHERE!"

I'll celebrate his life daily with the solace I'll find in the
additional laughter evoked by the many, many memories we created
and shared...

But most of all, I'll celebrate his life daily with the memory
of the man; a warm, sensitive human being whose kindness and
generosity knew no bounds... I'll remember Doc Barry as a man
who defined the word "FRIEND"... I'll miss him!

Bud Kolb
01/15/99
In Celebration Of My Friend's Life
Doc Barry
August 18, 1927   -   January 13, 1999


-----

"Swamp gas, mogul balloons, dummies wearing parachutes identified as
ET's, flares with maximum burn time of six minutes, number of Communists
in the state department, single bullet and lone gunman, Vietnam War was
just retribution for the Gulf of Tonkin incident, rescue of medical
students on Grenada, 2,000 Panamanian deaths justified by Noriega's
capture, CIA officers were not in the drug business, and "the truth
shall set you free"
                                        ... Doc Barry - 18 Sep 1998


-----

Goodbye John, you made me <G> - a lot.

Errol





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 18

                        The Order Of the Solar Temple

From: Tim D. Brigham <devilsad@ksinc.net>
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 17:46:51 -0600
Fwd Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 10:40:23 -0500
Subject: The Order Of the Solar Temple


List,

Some time ago I requested further information regarding The
Order Of the Solar Temple, their UFO/extra-terrestrial beliefs,
and the rumor that leaders of the group used holographic
equipment in some of their ceremonies to fool members into
believing they had contacted non-human intelligences.

I have since come across the following and I thought some
members of the list may be interested in what I found.  This was
snipped from a chapter of an upcoming book Dr Massimo Introvigne
of CESNUR (= center for study on new religions) sent me
regarding the order of the solar temple

"....dating back to 1990, rumors were circulating that the most
secret and sacred experience of the OTS--visible manifestations
of the Masters of the Temple [note: aliens living on a planet
circling the star Sirius] --were, in fact, holographic and
electronic tricks stage-managed on behalf of Di Mambro by Tony
Dutoit (1958-1994). These rumors led Di Mambro�s son, Elie, to
quit the OTS. Dutoit and his wife eventually confirmed the
rumors . .... In the 1990s, while some members--through a
cognitive dissonance phenomenon not unusual in the magical
tradition--explained away the stage-managed apparitions of the
Masters as an unfortunate but necessary way to keep weaker souls
within the fold, others left the OTS. "

The question remains: how/from who did they get equipment
sophisticated enuff to pull this off?  Does anyone on the List
have any insight into what specific sort of equipment may have
been used, how it would be obtained, what it would cost, etc?

Best wishes,

Tim Brigham



)+(
www.ksinc.net/~devilsad/ufo.htm The Devil's Advocate
www.ksinc.net/~devilsad/ring.htm Operation MindPhuck
"Better to go hungry than to feast on lies."
)+(






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 18

                       Re: Military Retirees & Secrecy

From: moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 19:13:05 +0000
Fwd Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 10:42:39 -0500
Subject: Re: Military Retirees & Secrecy



>From: Dave Vetterick <veterick@ix.netcom.com>
>Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 18:53:01 -0600
>Fwd Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 14:28:45 -0500
>Subject: Re: Military Retirees & Secrecy

>>Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 17:50:20 +0000
>>From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>Subject: Military Retirees & Secrecy

Previously, Dave offered:

<snip>

>Roger, no offense, but suggesting the government and military is
>going to inflict illegal bodily harm over this and could get
>away with it, as you said they likely did over the Contra
>dealings, is far fetched and bordering on paranoia in my
>opinion.
>
>Intimidation is a tool, but to suggest in this day and time that
>the military could threaten anything other than putting a person
>in Ft. Leavenworth much less illegal bodily harm to a person's
>family, and get away with it just isn't realistic.

<snip>

>If I were illegally threatened this way by the military, or any
>REAL government agency I'd be on CNN and MSNBC within the hour.

And just what, exactly, would you use to back up your claims,
Dave?

I can assure you, you'd find it virtually impossible to get on
any local news station, much less a network, without some kind
of proof. Based on my access to the news media, I can tell you
that people make these claims you are talking about on a regular
basis and are turned away, just as you would be.

As I stated before, the problem isn't what the government does
that we know about and can prove; it's what we don't know about
and can't prove that is the problem. Now, on balance, it would
seem a reasonable question that if we don't know about these
things then how can I support my position? Well, as I said, my
father had film and tapes confiscated MANY times over the course
of his 45 years in television news. Unless my father and the
other field engineers he worked with are lying, then I'd say
this is more than "far fetched and bordering on paranoia".

It's very real and it happens all the time which is why the
stations are not going to cooperate unless someone has iron clad
proof. A sure fire way for a station to go out of business is to
butt heads with the government without anything to back them up.
Don't forget, a station must have an FCC license and the
government is under no obligation to renew it in a timely
manner, if at all, if they do not want to. Being off the air for
only a month or two can be irreversibly devastating.

I respect you own beliefs, Dave. But I think they are based on
your own strengths as an individual, and I mean that as a
compliment. I have no doubt from the way you present your
arguments that you, genuinely, do not fear the government.

But I think you should.

Besides, paranoia is simply a heightened state of awareness.<g>

Take care,

Roger Evans





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 18

                     Re: Notice For All UFO Researchers

From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net>
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 17:17:46 -0800
Fwd Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 10:48:04 -0500
Subject: Re: Notice For All UFO Researchers


>Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 18:53:46 +0000
>From: Philip Mantle <el51@dial.pipex.com>
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Notice For All UFO Researchers

>Dear colleagues,

>The UK based London Weeken Television company are currently
>looking for UFO's captured on film for a documentary they are
>working on. To this effect they have asked me to circulate the
>following:

>UFO SIGHTINGS

>Have you got footage of UFO's ? You could make =A3200.

Dear Philip:

200 quid? (roughly $330 U ) Is that all?

I have a 1962 Rambler Cross Country station wagon that doesn't
run any more that I will sell for that low price. Just come and
haul it away. I need the garage space! <bg>

Best regards

- Larry Hatch

PS: The engine is in good shape, needs a rebuilt carburetor. 2
tires are flat. Body has small dents all around. One owner.







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 18

                       Re: 25 Rules of Disinformation

From: Gary <galevy@pipeline.com>
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 19:44:06 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 11:13:39 -0500
Subject: Re: 25 Rules of Disinformation


>From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: 25 Rules of Disinformation
>Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 23:34:14 -0500

My remarks in this message will be in response to Mr. Sandow's
message of January 9th.  I have edited Mr. Sandow's comments
for space.

A few preliminary remarks are in order.  Here at last we get to
something of actual interest from my critics, as lame as it is.
First, we decline from "proof" to "real evidence," which I
interpret as "evidence convincing to me," or in this case, to
Mr. Sandow.  The big hidden issue here revolves around the
concept of "burden of proof."  That is, Dr. Hynek acted as an
intelligence agent while he was taking money from the Air Force
(and possibly from other agencies, as I have pointed out
earlier) for years. You would have to be blind not to be able to
see this in the record.  Now, why should I believe that he
STOPPED doing this sometime around 1969 after the Condon group
(now KNOWN to have been at least in part CIA-sponsored) gave the
Air Force an out?

As we have seen, Dr. Hynek was effectively "blown" by the 1966
Michigan Swamp Gas incident, as was the Air Force itself, where
UFO debunking was concerned.  It could have become necessary to
change the program, drastically, after those events, before
continuing it in other ways.  The burden of proof in this area
is, at least in part, on the defenders of Dr. Hynek, I'm afraid.
A very strong circumstantial case exists for an unfortunate
interpretation, a case that my critics simply refuse to
consider.

Below we examine Mr. Sandow's remarks, preceeded by a single
arrow.  My comments are immediately below.

>Evidence is evidence and proof is proof. Sometimes they are the
>same. Sometimes they are not. It all depends on the validity of
>the argument that supports the evidence and vice versa.

You know, this is the kind of thing that just stops one in his
or her tracks.  As my young niece once said to me, "Some dogs is
boy dogs, some dogs is girl dogs, and some dogs is just dogs."
In any event, it is a breakthrough of sorts to have Mr. Sandow
admit that absolute "proof" is not going to be obtained in this
area and something like "weight of evidence" is going to rule.

>Here's a list of things that might provide real evidence that
>Hynek was an intelligence agent:

>1. He told somebody that he was.

Well, this COULD be evidence for Mr. Sandow but I see a slight
flaw.  Suppose, for instance, that I said Dr. Hynek told ME that
he was an intelligence agent!  Case closed.

>2. Among his papers we find correspondence between him and
>intelligence officials, confirming his involvement.

Well, we have something very much like this, for 1952.  Using
his cover for status as an astronomer Dr. Hynek spoke with
fellow astronomers who "were not aware anything more than a
personal private talk between astronomers was going on".  These
conversations were filed by Dr. Hynek as "Special Report on
Conferences with Astronomers on Unidentified Aerial Objects to
Air Technical Intelligence Center Wright-Patterson Air Force
Base". [pp. 268-285 Project Blue Book edited by Brad Steiger
Ballantine Books, NY 1976] This document was classified until
the Blue Book documents were released.  It is not a scientific
report, scientists don't do their research or publish their work
this way.  It's an intelligence agent's report and was filed and
treated as such.  In the trade he was working as what is known
as a "vacuum cleaner."  As for the period after 1969, such a
find would be a windfall beyond my imagination since I don't
believe to Dr. Hynek to have been stupid, especially after
having read Vallee's comments on the good doctor's files.

>3. A known intelligence agent whom we know to be honest says
>Hynek was involved.

Now we enter the world of science fantasy; this is EVIDENCE for
Mr. Sandow?!  I want the list of known intelligence agents that
we know to be honest -- and everyone else here does, too! Those
who wish to know why this is true, how intelligence
organizations function, agents are trained and operate owe it to
themselves to read "Portrait of A Cold Warrior - Second Thoughts
of a Top CIA Agent" by Joseph B. Smith, G.P. Putnam's Sons, New
York, 1976.

>4. Somebody we trust overheard Hynek in conversation with known
>intelligence agents.

This would be good, for some people.  But intelligence agents
always have cover, for just this purpose.  Hynek could have been
talking about the weather, and probably would be, unless he was
incredibly stupid, which he was not.  Then, of course, he had
long and continuing contacts with Mr. Larsen, a former CIC guy,
but that doesn't cut any ice around here!

>5. In the files of some intelligence agency, we find documents
>saying Hynek was an agent.

Gee, we have this, for the year 1952, unless you're blind!

>6. Among Hynek's papers we find cancelled checks from an
>intelligence agency. (Unlikely, I'm sure. They'd find less
>traceable ways of giving him money.)

Check out Thornton Page's statement vis-a-vis a CIA paycheck! To
even suggest such nonsense is, well, classical debunkerism.
Thorton Page's correspondence can be viewed on the CUFON web
site:  http://www.cufon.org

It's included in the other verified documents section.

>Everything on this list is tangible.  Everything points
>directly to Hynek's involvement. I could also imagine less
>tangible kinds of evidence. For instance, what if people in
>the UFO community sometimes saw Hynek deep in conversation
>with unknown people?

You know, the whole trick was that for years and years no one
saw Dr. Hynek in conversation with his "Air Force" superiors
because those conversations were (and are) secret, which is just
about the whole point!


>What if he never told anyone what those conversations were
>about?  What if he brushed off all questions?  What if he
>sometimes disappeared for hours at a time, and never told anyone
>where he went?

You know, for years and years Hynek flew to Wright Field, and
told Vallee that all he did was attend boring parties with the
Air Force officers there.  Convinced now?  And Hynek had a
years-long history of doing things a lot more interesting than
Mr. Sandow's sophomoric catalog above, that's for sure!  What
does that say?  I'm sure that Mr. Sandow has no idea.

>Of course, that would only prove he had things in his life he
>didn't want known. They wouldn't prove his unknown life
>involved intelligence work. Gary, of course, doesn't even
>have anything this specific. All he has is speculation.

It is NOT speculation for the 1950s, not at all.  And we find
some very interesting items in Vallee's _Forbidden Science_, for
those who will take the time to look them up.  And there are
many other item's that I am saving for later because the boy
scouts on this list don't deserve them!  What a joke!

Long description of a 1968 Chicago incident snipped, a
description of an incident at a purported CIA office in that
city.  The office supposedly had cover involving the title "gear
locker."  There are several interesting aspects of Mr. Sandow's
description but they are not relevant to this discussion.

>Gary, did anyone ever see Hynek enter this federal building,
>and take the elevator to the floor where that "gear locker"
>was?

>Greg Sandow

Gee, Mr. Sandow, I don't know!  What a shock!  Obviously my
life's work is crushed by this massive attack on my position!
What can I possibly do to recover!  Holy Cats, I'm ruined!

Or maybe, just maybe, and I know it's a long shot, but perhaps
Dr. Hynek made his connection at Wright Field, or on the phone,
or through the mail, or in the house of one of his academic
colleagues, like Dr. Menzel, now known to have been an NSA wonk
for years.  Now, I know, it's all I have left, but I take
whatever comfort I can after being destroyed by the level of
argument exhibited by Mr. Sandow.

Gary Alevy

***






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 18

                      Re: Military Retirees and Secrecy

From: Ed Fouche <fouche@connecti.com>
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 22:03:56 -0600
Fwd Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 11:40:32 -0500
Subject: Re: Military Retirees and Secrecy



>From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
>Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 10:29:20 EST
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Re: Military Retirees and Secrecy

>There are certainly hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of
>people who have served in the military or worked for the Federal
>Government and have taken security oaths or worked under
>security restrictions.  For the most part, these restrictions
>have certainly worked.

>In today's New York Times an article relates how a book
>manuscript by former UN arms inspector Scott Ritter has been
>requested for censorship by the Pentagon, suppposedly because of
>criticism Ritter has made about U.S. policy.

>Have there ever been any documented instances of such attempted
>prior censorship involving any UFO sources?  If followers of
>this list could provide instances of such events, it would help
>us move from hypothetical and theoretic discussions to fact.

>Any known instances, ladies and gentlemen?


Censorship of alleged secrets is not new.

From the Prelude to 'The Puzzle Palace' by James Bamford, he
writes of the War Department trying to suppress the book 'The
American Black Chamber' in 1930.

From Chapter, 'Targets'
He also writes of ITT, Western Union, and  RCA agreeing to
Provide intercepted communications for Project Shamrock.. ASA
(Armed Forces Security Agency) headed Project Shamrock. ASA
later was absorbed into the NSA (National Security Agency.)

In a meeting on 16 December 1947, with approval of the US
Attorney General, Secretary of Defense Forrestal met with the
heads of these companies to assure them that the US Attorney,
Attorney General Tom Clark -Justice Department, Under authority
of President Truman, would provide legal Protection to these
companies. Their fears were valid. Project Shamrock broke
numerous laws, the Constitution, and these Companies would be
subject to lawsuits if the Justice Department, And Defense
Department didn't cover for them.

Section 605 of the Communications Act of 1934 Prohibited
interception of communications.

A little more than 9 months later, Forrestal resigned. A week
later he was admitted to the Bethesda  Naval Hospital. Diagnosed
as suffering from anxiety, severe depression, and acute paranoia
and talked of 'unidentified people trying to get me,' and
'conspiracies.'

Was his involvement with the MJ-12 committee the conspiracy he
was so afraid of?  He was treated for 'involutional melancholia
psychosis.'

In the early morning hours of Sunday, 22 May, Forrestal sat
alone in His hospital room, copying onto sheets of paper the
brooding lines from Sophocles, 'Ajax,' - "No quiet murmer like
the tremulous wail," he wrote "of the lone bird, the querulous
night-" The word nightingale was left unfinished.

(Allegedly) Forrestal walked across the hallway into a small
kitchen, tied one end of his dressing gown sash to a radiator
just beneath a window, and knotted the other end around his neck
and jumped from his 16 th floor window.

Was the 'murmer' - the voices he heard from a recovered live
alien? Was the 'tremulous wail' - the his memory of this event?
Was the 'lone bird' - the crashed UFO? Was the 'querulous night'
- the night he was informed of the crash at Roswell?

Stanton Freedman, Timothy Good, Edgar Fouche (myself) and others
have written and pondered about what really happened to
Secretary Forrestal.

I speculate in 'Alien Rapture' with Brad Steiger, my co-author
(of Project Blue Book) that Forrestal was murdered because he
'couldn't handle the truth.'









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 18

               Re: Truth Detracting Elements of the Abduction

From: Michael Christol <mchristo@mindspring.com>
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 22:49:42 -0600
Fwd Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 11:45:49 -0500
Subject: Re: Truth Detracting Elements of the Abduction


>Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 13:33:50 -0800
>From: Ed Stewart <ufoindex@jps.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: Truth Detracting Elements of the Abduction Phenomena

>Blah, blah, blah! Tell your acquaintance Michael Christol, who
>posts to this list, about it. You know, the guy that travelled
>all the way to California from Kentucky to see the UFOs you
>alleged to be observing everyday with your alcoholic friend.
>Only to find out on arrival that the alleged UFOs were shy and
>didn't want to be noticed by far away strangers.

>Before it happens, people on this list and especially abductees
>and experiencers, need to know what you Steve Jones is all
>about. You are without a doubt about the worst thing that can
>happen to an abductee/experiencer. Caveat Emptor.
>
>Ed Stewart


Hi Ed...

You are correct.  I did travel to Sacramento back in Sept. 1993.
Steve, I and two others spent the weekend in the foothills and
Mountains of the Sierrea Navadas.

You are correct, I did not see anything which I could not
identify. The "old Faithful" turned out to be planes taking off
from a military airfield far in the distance...I recognized this
movement from spending a lot of time around airports in
Evansville, Indiana, Nashville, Tenn. Owensboro, Lousiville, and
others.  I have been fooled before by the way these lights
appear to stand still and then suddenly go out... I realized,
they were simply approaching us until the reached an altitude
where they would turn to assume their scheduled flight path.
While traveling from Indianapolis to Owensboro, at night, I
would observe these light appear and seem to hover...yet, after
about five minutes, they would appear to move again and shortly
thereafter, pass directly over me or just to my left, allowing
me a great view.<G>

As far as Steve, having friends, I do consider him a friend.
You also, although I try to stay from between the two of you. I
wish you wouldn't make replies like this on the list...it
doesn't help any of us...You know that others have skewered you
most viciously, in the past and I didn't like that either...

I know that you and Steve will never be friends.  I don't expect
it. But, everything he says and does is not a lie.  You know
that.  I understand your feelings toward him and Joe Ball.  I
understand why you feel the way you do about Rich Boylan
also...but, I don't think airing those feelings helps the UFO
field at all.  We need unity here...We are on the verge of total
discreditation.

In the 50 years since the words Flying Saucers and UFOs have
been in existence in the general public, we seem to be further
from disclosure all the time.  UFO Investigator/Researchers,
have been replaced by cynics and skeptibunkers...Yes, they claim
to be researchers.  Yet just looking at the "attitude" which
"flows" like vinegar, demonstrates otherwise.

These peoples born since 1965 have never lived without
technology. They don't know what it is to be simi-primitive as a
society.  They are "spoiled" by an overabundance of "instant
service."  They don't know what it was like to wait a month to
get a reply from a fellow researcher, due to distance and the
slow mail service.  Long distance phone calls were infrequent,
not an everyday occurance, as we have today via the internet and
cell phones.  It was very different.  You know that.

These modern peoples, have the advantage of having all of the
work done by our generation and the one before us to use as
reference books, and even then they debate whether "Kenneth
Arnold had an airplane."  They are so friggin' scared of the
possibilities you and I have faced and continue to face, that
they deliberately rip the very fiber of UFOlogy to shreads and
turn history into mythology...

Yes, Ed. we need to put the past, as far as personal vendettas
go, behind us and pull together...we are the roots of
ufology...if we allow them, either by our own numbness and
coldness, or by their own intellectualism to pull us from the
ground, ufology will simply die as a serious investigative
phenomenon, and become purely folklore.

I don't want that.  Do you Ed?  I don't think so.

REgards, Mike






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 18

                 Re: Project 1947 on Jeff Rense's Sightings

From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net>
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 04:27:20 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 11:53:02 -0500
Subject: Re: Project 1947 on Jeff Rense's Sightings

>Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 15:40:36 -0800
>From: Jan Aldrich <jan@cyberzone.net>
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Project 1947 on Jeff Rense's Sightings

>I have been invited to appear on  Jeff Rense's show, Monday,
>January 18, from 8-10 pm Pacific Time.

>The proposed topic are:

>   1.  The newly rediscovered APRO microfilm,
>
>   2.  Newly reveal US Strategic Air Forces, Europe,
>       1945 Top Secret Document which mentions "Foo-fighters."
>
>   3.  US government Ghost Rocket documents (mostly
>       formerly Top Secret) as discussed in the latest edition
>       of the CUFOS International UFO Reporter,

>http://www.cufos.org/IUR_index.html

>
>   4.  Proper handling of Top Secret material.


>--
>Jan Aldrich
>Project 1947
>http://www.iufog.org/project1947/

Break a leg Jan! I have told John Stepkowski several times
(privately) that I always thought that the work that Project 47
does should get much more public exposure than it does. You guys
have tracked down more 'gubbamint' paper than any other group
that I'm aware of.

More people ought to know!

Do your thing Jan!

John Velez, Webmaster IF-AIC

________________________________________________
                                jvif@spacelab.net
INTRUDERS FOUNDATION/ABDUCTION INFORMATION CENTER
                            http://www.if-aic.com
"Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind."
________________________________________________






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 18

                       Re: R.A.M.S. - A Parting Shot?

From: Robert A. M. Stephens <sti3818@montana.com>
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 02:40:53 +0000
Fwd Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 12:02:35 -0500
Subject: Re: R.A.M.S. - A Parting Shot?


ArtBell@aol.com wrote:

>If I put Stephens back on the air after all we know.......
>Well......fool me once and so forth. If Richard Sauder is on
>the same page as Mr. Stephens, then thats another
> place I won't go.

>Art Bell

----------------------------------

Dear Art,

You can't have it both ways. You are an entertainer. Before
being UFO man, you were militia reporter man. Before that,
you were political reporter boy. Look, its good for ratings.
Its good for all. Now, since you, the head of the great UFO
Entertainment triad of Bell-Hoagland-CAUS & Co. have come so
far in ferreting out fraud with me, it only seems to be fitting
to ferret out all fraud. My mails are screaming for this to be.
They want to know what Hoagy has done. Simple.

You, if you think, would be having a little better night for
ratings than you've had for the last couple weeks. The public
is clear in this. They have spoken, Art, and you know this.

And since I myself have stated I'm some form of fraud, Hoagy
should take me in the debate in less than 30 seconds. Then, I'm
a lying defeated Fraud.

Art--its ratings. Its also a matter of truth---and this is that
what you are really really after from the Kingdom of Nye? Of
course it is.

The first question proved to be a lie to Hoagy. Hoagy lied. Uh
Oh. Everything I claimed, stated, posted, quoted, referenced,
told, reported, and divulged has proven to be true to the letter
by independent researchers in this online culture . My service
to this country will never be a public record--ever!!!! If that
constitutes fraud, so be it.

Now, get your little high school educated genius back on air,
don't hit the clicker, and lets tidy up the little issue of all
those questions that remain.

Oh, for I forget, got another 8 guys, all real professional, who
have come forward and they too have had dealings with Hoagland
and being ruined or lied to or stolen from by this clown. I no
longer feel Hoagland is a nice person and a liar as a
researcher. I think he is a true felon in purest form. If any of
these 23 people wanted to, they would put him in jail. These
men, also, have offered their data. So, the first 23 questions
pertain to what Hoagland has done and said in this field of
study to others in great harm in all ways.

They also have gotten a lot madder than Dr. Sauder. They want to
come on air in real time in case I'm perceived as confusing or
the like. If you wish, or Richard and Peter Gersten, I would be
happy to send the 200 questions to you for Hoagland for review
in proper debate format so he is not blind to the questions.

You know, to be fair.

Thank you for the prompt reply.

(Oh, lastly, you could always 'click' Hoagy off air, turn on him
with malice like you did me, then, get a new freak show every
week or so for the ratings. This culture is filled with a
selection of Hoaglands. It'd be slick.)

It's ratings, Art, at the least.

But then you know that, don't you.


Sincerely,



Robert A.M. Stephens
NASA Documentation Program
Stillwater Mills
Contractor-Aerospace
406-745-3818
sti3818@montana.com
http://198.116.116.10/gallery/arts/samples.html








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 18

                     Re: Abductions: Return to the Herd

From: Leanne Martin <leanne_martin@hotmail.com>
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 03:53:49 PST
Fwd Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 12:07:07 -0500
Subject: Re: Abductions: Return to the Herd


>Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1998 14:09:11 -0600
>To: <leanne_martin@hotmail.com>
>From: Michael Christol <mchristo@mindspring.com>
>Subject: Re: Abductions: Return to the Herd

>>At 09:33 AM 12/23/98 -0500, you wrote:
>>From: "Leanne Martin" <leanne_martin@hotmail.com>
>>To: updates@globalserve.net
>>Subject: Re: Abductions: Return to the Herd
>>Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 14:32:36 PST

>>>If we can accept the idea that
>>>Humanity may have indeed been engineered by "space faring
>>>scientists," many million years ago, then it would seem logical
>>>
>>A very long bow to draw . . . and not a skeric of proof (funny about
>>that).

Bilge actually . . . <g>  (yes I'm back from holidays!!!)
>
>Just out of curiousity, how do you explain the beginnings of
>human beings?
>
Try reading the "origin of the species" . . .
>
>>>If the doctors, neurosurgeons, etc., can't explain what has
>>>happened to this man, how then can I?
>>>
>>"It is 'unexplainable' therefore aliens did it"?
>
>It is what this man says happened to him...does it make it
>so?  No...is he saying it to be important?  I can't answer
>that.  He is a millionaire, so I don't think he is doing
>if for money...in fact, I know that he is not...
>He has not published a book...he is not on a lecture tour,
>he simply talks to those whom he comes in contact with,
>and tells his story.
>He did not loose all memory of the happening.  Yet, he did
>not remember all of it either.  He tells me that bits and
>pieces of new material materialize in his Consciousness
>from time to time and he is frustrated, knowing there is
>so much more that he cannot remember.
>He has the normal "scoup" marks on his calfs, to go along
>with his total lack of sensory feeling...
>His is an interesting case, to me.  Very interesting...

Even the very rich suffer delusions . . . (if they're poor
they're insane but if they're rich then they're eccentric!)

>>>For them yes...I would agree...to me as an observer, I don't
>>>know...even though I do accept the hypothisis that these events
>>>do take place...

>>Did you accept only on verbal evidence?

>If you had been reading the material I was posting to you,
>you would have seen that I did not...remember??? <g>

>>>I can show you the man, in this instance, if you care to travel
>>>here to see and test him for yourself....He has entertained
>>>other investigators, hypnotists, & Medical Students which I have
>>>brought to him...

>>"A man with odd symptoms equals proof of alien abduction"?

>Nor does it disprove alien abduction...

It also doesn't disprove that he was the subject of a wierd
military experiment, or had a witch/warlock cast a nasty spell
on him, or even (heaven forbid) is experiencing a valid if
extremely peculiar medical condition . . .

>This is an ify situation...are you being steadfast simply to
>support your ideology regarding abductions, or because you cannot
>accept the idea that this person may have had such an experience???

I still expect researchers to show verifiable proof of such
claims of 'alien causality'.

>>>>"I know in my heart and soul that the earth is flat and that if
>>>>I sail too far in any one direction I will eventually fall into
>>>>space. I know this is true and you better belief me or you are a
>>>>sad, bad person!"

>>>Ha, ha, ha...very good...but, unfortunately, I have "flown over
>>>the horizon," to such places as Hawaii and France...I did not
>>>fly off into space, nor fall into an abyss. <g> Just call me a
>>>mean old person...<g>

>>No I shan't, just awee bit short on the science.

>So, I am a bit short on science, if I don't accept the idea that
>the earth is flat???  Hmmm...interesting statment.
>Especially since I have verifiable date, taken from satellite
>information as well as Shuttle Astronaut research accquired while
>orbiting this "flat earth" which disproves equivically the "flat
>earth" idea...it proves emphatically that the earth is a "sphere."
>Not perfectly round, mind you, but flat at the poles and bulging
>at the equator...  Ha, ha, ha...I like your wit...Leanne...

No, but you obviously have a problem understanding what an
analogy is.

>>>quasi-religious??? By what standards and judgements do you
>>>determine a thing to be quasi-anything??? You sound so much like
>>>a Fruedian, while I prefer Carl Jung. <g> You may be a dedicated
>>>religious person, for all I know.

I am dedicatedly sacreligious <g>

>>A belief in something as fact without a shred of hard evidence
>>qualifies in my book!

>Such a short answer to such a complex paragraph...In essesence,
>you just did not answer my questions...
>What is the name of the "book" you wrote?  Maybe I should read it.<G>

>>>There have been many people tested by psychologists and medical

<snip>

>>>forty years or so.

>>Just because a specialist works on something it doesn't mean that
>>any claimed outcomes are scintifically accurate. All results must
>>be 'verifiable by peer review'. (When I get back from my holiday I
>>shall endeavour to track down those of whom you speak and see their
>>work.)

Could you please supply me some web links?

>>You know, of course, that you can have a chip inserted into
>>your dog, should you have one, but does that make one an alien
>>abductor for doing so?

>If a specialist's work is not vindication of a science, then there
>is no vendification...by using this point of presumption, then there
>is no way to "verify" anything...
>Yes, I do know that there are chips for "tracking" pets....how much
>of a Jump is it to inject the same chip into a human?

A very short jump but it does not prove that aliens put a chip
in anyone . . . (Was there a true chip implanted in anyone?)

>From these two Accademic Researchers, you will find links to others,
>with whom they have shared their research efforts and from whom they
>have received information as well.
>Hopefully, your efforts to "track down those of whom you speek"
>will add insight to your search for verifiable proof/facts in regards
>to the entire phenomena....<smile>  But, there are no absolutes! <g>

>>>You are assuming much here...

>>You bet, but it was obviously an illustrative example. Religious
>>indoctrination works the same way.

>I don't disagree.  But why do you equate all of this with
>Religon?  <snip>

Because too many people are taking up this theme with a
religious fervor that would do any of the old inquisitors proud.
To wit, the amount of damning aimed at me for requesting,
rightly, that all of the 'abductee' researchers need to find
hard evidence (i.e. not the word-of-mouth kind) and place it on
the table for credible peer review.

>>I agree, but it only points out the obvious - Tesla's facts were
>>mostly verifiable else he would not have proved his worth for the
>>patents he chieved in securing. His other theories on faster than
>>light transmission are yet to be proven but should they be proven
>>then he will get the recognition for that as well.

>I hope your faith in this system is warrented.  I do not feel Tesla
>will ever be recognized Publicly by the establised sciences.  He
>made them look so foolish so many times back then...to recant and
>uphold him today would be an admission that they were wrong back
>then...I don't see them making such an admission...it would cast
>doubt on many of their other pronouncements and laws...<G>

>>It is, however, not a good analogy for the proof of alien abductions
>>only of human ineptitude, pride and greed.

>No, maybe not, but it shows how our system handles any information
>which is not good for them...
>Yet, Tesla claimed that he received information for "The boys from
>Topside," which according to historians in UFOlogy and the Tesla
>Society, indicates he believed there was "life" on Mars and several
>of the other planets in this solar system, and he alleged receiving
>telepathic information about some of his patents and inventions
>from this source.
>He never wrote his inventions down on papter, he created them all in
>his head and transferred them to physical creations.  He was to
>science what Mozart was to music...

>><snip>

>>>attacks by Iraq....even though the Isrealy (sp) troops wore
>>>theirs... Thus, there were large numbers of American Soldiers
>>>who died and possibly continue to die today as a result of this.
>>>This is not my belief, it is documented. I have the radio talk
>>>show from New York, from one of the doctors who told the story
>>>and they also talked to the Dr. in Texas who made the discovery.

>>Still, this no proof for alien abductions, only of poor troop
>>management practices . . .

>Yes, and it also shows that the American Government used it's
>troops for experimentation...they were expecting larege numbers
>of casualties, and there were very few...most of them caused
>by "friendly fire."  Should I make the jump here and say that
>they "produced the numbers?"  or should we say this is just
>"poor troop management practices...?"
>Had there been large numbers of casualties, they could have
>studied the effects of the "germ or biological" warefare on
>the troops in secret, without anyone every being any wiser,
>but since there were few troops dying, they came home and became
>ill over a period of time.  Then the Government turned it's
>back on them and said it was "PTSS."  Forgive me for talking
>about this, but it says something about those who are elected
>to protect the American People...Aren't these the same people
>who are saying "there are no UFOs?"  and "there are no alien
>abductions?"  Hmmmmm.....

Well, when you've got troops that are excess to requirements . . .


Regards,
Leanne  ];-)





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 18

                        'UFOs Here in Alice Springs'

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 12:17:03 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 12:17:03 -0500
Subject: 'UFOs Here in Alice Springs'

From: Diane Harrison <tkbnetw@fan.net.au>
To: UFO UpDates <updates@globalserve.net>,
Subject: 'UFOs Here in Alice Springs'
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 20:14:31 +1000


The Keith Basterfield Network Australasia
tkbnetw@fan.net.au

****************************************************************

UFO Australian Research Network Hot Line Number
            1800 77 22 88 Free Call

****************************************************************


UFOs HERE in Alice Springs

Well folks it looks like Keith Douglass is getting quite a bit
of support from the town folks of Alice Springs Even the local
car dealer is cashing in on the resent UFO Flap. Keith said the
advertisement was Peter's own idea, Keith said good media for the
UFO Cause:>) The UFO's stories contained in the publication page
4 are ones? Keith had already reported which I have sent out to
you all. However there is one which I have not yet heard off, so
I will following it up.

(The Territory ARE THE DEVILS MARBLES A UFO LANDING SITE).

A person who wishes to remain anonymous was traveling through
the Northern Territory on a touring holiday from Victoria in
early January 1995, when they saw a flash then a circular object
trying to Land while he was observing the Devils Marbles. (U/I).

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Some members off The Australian UFO Research Network will be
visiting Alice Springs in the next five weeks, on a 15 day
Skywatching, camping Trip starting on the 27th 2. 1999. We will
be talking to the Locals along the way hoping  to bring back
some really good stories & sightings reports.

And not forgetting Cameras lights and action :>) we hope!!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Source: Keith Douglass UFO Independent Researcher
Alice Springs P.O Box 3208 NT 0871
Thanking Keith Douglass for posting this to me.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

UFOs Here, Alice Springs News.
Vol. 6 Special issue January 6th 1999
E-mail asnews@ozemail.com.au

The Dealer Principle of the Peter Kittle Motor Company, Peter
Kittle said the recent UFO sightings in the Territory prompted
him to "find out if there's really a UFO out there." He's
offering the top of the range Toyota Camry, a Venta Grand
(pictured) to The first person who sends him a "real UFO that's
not made by humans". This dramatic offer by Peter Kittle will
stay open until the end of March this year. Peter Kittle said:
"I reckon there's got to be something out there and my offer is
Substantial." We'll trade a brand new vehicle for something
that's done a lot of Kilometers, I'm sure. Peter Kittle said:
that he's seen some strange things in the sky recently and I'm
sure other people have too but they're not saying anything.
"Peter went on to say that he "recently saw a stationary bright
light in the sky late one night and then it moved at a
phenomenal rate and disappeared over the horizon. "Things like
that make you wonder, and like everyone else, I want to find
something that really proves we're not alone in the Universe.

The material offered to Peter Kittle must be alien made with
previously unidentified material or technology. This Means the
UFO must be a genuine alien spacecraft and not man made.

Disclaimer: The Peter Kittle Motor Company takes no
responsibility for the accuracy of the unidentified flying
Objects (UFO) sighting reports and photographs relating to UFOs
published within this UFO special edition.

If you would like to find out more contact:

Peter Kittle Motor Company.
Tel 08 8953 3133 Alice Springs Australia.
Publisher Erwin Chlanda PTY LTD, Alice Springs News.
E-mail asnews@ozemail.com.au
http://www.ozemail.com.au/~asnews


Sighting Report Alice Springs

Source: Keith Douglass Alice Springs

Date 21st 12 1998
Day: Monday
Time Reported: 8.30pm
Source: Rajenora Kumur
Location: West of Alice Springs

Report: I saw a bright orange oval shaped object, 10klm to the
west of Kulgera NT. It was moving around slowly,it had red,
yellow and orange lights on it, the object seemed to be getting
brighter and then dimmer a little at a time we watched it for
around an hour. Then I think it landed has it slowly went behind
the hills some distance away.

Regards Diane Harrison








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 18

                 Re: The Truth About The 'Tent Footage' Hoax

From: Neil Morris <Neil@adm1.ph.man.ac.uk>
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 13:36:30 +0000
Fwd Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 12:21:11 -0500
Subject: Re: The Truth About The 'Tent Footage' Hoax


>From: Stig Agermose <Stig_Agermose@online.pol.dk>
>Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 22:25:28 +0100 (MET)
>Subject: The Truth About The 'Tent Footage' Hoax
>To: updates@globalserve.net

>[List only]



Stig,

Thanks for posting this sorry little article, I had it with me
to OCR in today. I regret it seems to do nothing more than cloud
the issues even further. I agree completely the Tent Footage has
remained extreamly fishy since it was first "leaked". (and in a
number of "versions"!) But this explanation of it's "parentage"
seems to carry more than a wiff of our watery friends with it.

A couple of the "odd" points in this tale to think about:

If, as Ray has said in the past ALL his source material was on
16mm FILM, why would he approach a VIDEO production company with
a TAPE for enhancement??. Wouldn't he be far better served
taking the FILM  to a FILM facility and work with the original
source material not even a first generation TAPE copy?

How were the hoaxers hoping their plan would hold water using
TAPE only, there seems to be no mention of what they were
planning when people started to ask "Where is the FILM", there
wern't many camcorders back in 1947!? Before anyone jumps down
MY throat with "Well Ray Santilli has never produced any!", he
DID produce "some" damaged film which WAS tested and found
consistant with the film type alledgedly used and only in
production by Kodak until the mid 1950's. There are also
problems IF the wouldbe hoaxers thought they could transfer the
VIDEO TAPE to film LATER, not only trying to find contempary
unexposed film that was still unfogged and usable (highly
unlikly), but both TV scan artifacts and/or pixelation artifacts
would undoubtably be presant from the transfer process, film
emulsions can still hold FAR greater detail than a video image,
even a 16mm film frame.

Nope, if this was set up as a serious project it just wasn't
thought through.

A poor joke?, a prank?.

Or is this story's apearance just an agenda from a "media
insider" to "repay" Ray Santilli for past (dis)services
rendered?.


As James Easton mentioned some enhanced images from the footage
are on my site listed below. As a closing comment, the section
of tape I grabbed the images from was not "very grainy" as
alledged in the article nor did the camera use any "strange
camera angles" as again mentioned in the article, the camera was
ridgedly locked off and stable in one position and didn't "jogg"
about "to give the impression it was being held", strange
comments indeed from the very people who produce the tape and
should know it frame by frame?.

In all probibility the Tent Footage is a hoax AND it may well
have been put together by the people behind the Mail's article
BUT, the story THEY ARE TELLING seems to have serious problems
too.

Just my own opinion.

Neil.

--
*        *         *         *         *         *         *         *
Neil Morris.       /101101101 Virtual Bumper Stickers Inc 10110101010\
Dept of Physics.   1                                                 1
Univ of Manchester 0                                                 0
Schuster Labs.     1  Computer Programmers DO IT with BITS of BYTES  1
Brunswick St.      0                                                 0
Manchester.        1                                                 1
UK.                \0101010110010110110010110101101011011110101011010/
G8KOQ


             E-mail: neil@adm1.ph.man.ac.uk

Roswell and Alien Autopsy Archive->  http://adm2.ph.man.ac.uk/
Fort Worth Images/RPIT-->    http://adm2.ph.man.ac.uk/ftw-pics/
Dave Willetts Home Page->    http://adm2.ph.man.ac.uk/dave_willetts/
Mike Sterling Home Page->    http://adm2.ph.man.ac.uk/mike-s/
Tim Morgan Home Page   ->    http://adm2.ph.man.ac.uk/tim-m/

*        *         *         *         *         *         *         *






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 18

                      Re: Military Retirees and Secrecy

From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 09:22:08 EST
Fwd Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 12:22:45 -0500
Subject: Re: Military Retirees and Secrecy


>From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
>Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 10:29:20 EST
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Re: Military Retirees and Secrecy


>There are certainly hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of
>people who have served in the military or worked for the Federal
>Government and have taken security oaths or worked under
>security restrictions.  For the most part, these restrictions
>have certainly worked.

>In today's New York Times an article relates how a book
>manuscript by former UN arms inspector Scott Ritter has been
>requested for censorship by the Pentagon, suppposedly because of
>criticism Ritter has made about U.S. policy.

>Have there ever been any documented instances of such attempted
>prior censorship involving any UFO sources?  If followers of
>this list could provide instances of such events, it would help
>us move from hypothetical and theoretic discussions to fact.

>Any known instances, ladies and gentlemen?

Ed Ruppelt talked about his book being submitted to the Pentagon
for review prior to publication.

KRandle





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 18

                      Re: Military Retirees and Secrecy

From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 10:36:50 EST
Fwd Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 12:42:50 -0500
Subject: Re: Military Retirees and Secrecy



>From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
>Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 10:29:20 EST
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Re: Military Retirees and Secrecy

A clarification to my 1/17/99 posting:

According to an article in today's New York Times, former UN
arms inspector Scott Ritter, a retired Marine Intelligence
officer, was a contractor for the Defense Department and was
required to submit things for review to ensure he was not
publishing classified into. The article noted that some have
constitutional questions about such contract clauses. The
Government has withdrawn the request about Ritter's forthcoming
book, saying the letter was sent by mistake.

So, to get back to my original on-subject question, do members
of this list know of any documented instances where censorship
has been attempted involving alleged UFO information?

Bob Young





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 18

                    Re: 'Rods' - On The Learning Channel

From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 11:02:28 +0000
Fwd Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 12:49:59 -0500
Subject: Re: 'Rods' - On The Learning Channel


'Rods' - On The Learning Channel

>From: Jose Escamilla <rods@rmi.net>
>Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 13:15:46 +0300
>Fwd Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 15:57:23 -0500
>Subject: 'Rods' - On The Learning Channel

Previously, Jose had written:

>So, in our quest to further this investigation, Jim Peters, Ken
>Swartz (a new associate and team member), set out to see "if in
>fact" Rods or fast objects traveling distances from the camera
>would create a "blur" because of the electronics involved in CCD
>photography - or videography.

>We videotaped an 16 1/2"arrow (bolt) using Jim's crossbow that
>shoots these bolts at approximately 136 mph.

>We used the Sony VX-1000 digital
>camcorder that most of the current Rod shots have been captured
>on in New Jersey, South Dakota and The cave in Mexico.

>We we found was that using the optical lens setting at 1/10,000
>shutter setting, the bolt - or arrow, appears as it really is: a
>16 1/2" arrow. And it appears in two to three frame of video
>shot at 30fps.

>This revealed to us that using the Sony VX-1000 camcorder as has
>been used in all the cave footage, what you see is what you get.

Hi Jose,

To start with, I'm not at all up to date on the ROD issue, but I
do know a thing or two about video. I can appreciate the test
you were trying to create but there are a couple of things you
really should consider:

1) 1/10,000 of a second shutter is staggeringly fast. Therefore
little, if any, blur should be expected of any object at that
speed.

2) 1/10,000 of a second is too fast to use in a cave or other
indoor areas unless a LOT of light is present; at least as much
as is present in the broad outdoor daylight. You CAN manually
set the shutter speed to 1/10,000 of a second, but I'm positive
you'd get nothing but blackness on the final video image under
indoor conditions. More than likely, if you got an image at all,
the shutter speed in the cave would have been around only 1/60
of a second. At that speed, anything moving even moderately fast
will create a blur.

3) Using only the same camera isn't really an accurate test of
the phenomenon. For instance, my mother has old 35mm camera that
has light leaks in it. Every picture shot with it has orange
streaks, like comets, appearing in the upper right hand corner.
If I thought the streaks were ET in nature, I'd need to shoot
additional pictures with both my mother's camera and a camera of
another make. If I got streaks using both cameras, then I might
have something. Otherwise, it's obvious the results are only
unique to my mother's camera.

4) Regarding the presentation of your test results, you should
bone up on your terminology if you want people to take you
seriously. The term "1/10,000 of a second" is not an "optical
setting". In fact, it has nothing to do with optics at all. You
can take the optics off the camera completely and still set the
shutter to 1/10,000 of a second. They are completely separate
functions. I'm not trying to bust your chops, but it would seem
you have an uphill battle on your hands and making inaccurate
technical statements is not going to speed the plow on your
behalf.

5) All video cameras shoot at 30 FPS (actually 29.97, I think).
Unlike film cameras, it is not neccessary to specify the frame
rate when speaking about home video type cameras.

6) If the arrow was traveling at 136 mph, I'm surprised it would
show up at all on the video beyond one frame. If, on the other
hand, you were looking at "fields" instead of "frames", then I
might buy that. While there are 30 frames per second, there are
actually 60 fields per second (2 fields per frame is the easiest
way to remember it for future reference). Some VCRs allow for
single field viewing; some single frame viewing; some both. You
need to check your machine for the specifics.

Try taking these things into consideration and run another test
with more accurate field data. I'm curious about the results.

Take care,

Roger Evans





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 18

                       Re: The State of Ufology Today

From: Gary Alevy <galevy@pipeline.com>
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 11:56:32 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 13:01:15 -0500
Subject: Re: The State of Ufology Today


>Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 01:37:06 -0800
>From: Josh Goldstein <clearlt@pacbell.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: The State of Ufology Today

>>Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 20:15:06 -0500
>>From: Gary Alevy <galevy@pipeline.com>
>>To: UFO UpDate <updates@globalserve.net>
>>Subject: The State of Ufology Today

<snip>

>These are selected snips from your post that I think illustrate
>your caustic and hostile attitude toward Jerry Clark, Richard
>Hall and MUFON investigators (like myself). I had to look at
>your displays of hostility even when other researchers were
>being civil to you and only asking you to prove what you were
>saying in your posts. Bruce Evans received the same treatment. I
>respect the work of the above people and despise seeing you
>resort to character assasination. I don't know what drives your
>cynicism and hatred. Perhaps a qualified therapist would be able
>to help you understand yourself and your obvious self hatred.

>Perhaps then you will drop your hateful attitude and actually
>begin to finally contribute something to this field. Judging by
>the work of Jerome Clark and Richard Hall you may after years be
>worthy of licking their boots.

>Gary, don't vent on me. I've seen more than enough of your
>ugliness in far too many posts. I will not stoop to respond to
>you.

>Josh Goldstein
>(lowly MUFON investigator dumb as dirt)


Josh,

Tsk, tsk, tsk.

You object to the style of message that I used; however, isn't
it true that if I tried to make these points in the "academic"
style so fashionable today no one would have paid it any
attention. I have been observing this list for more than two
years and I see "researchers" you favor insult, degrade and
debase posters to this list, you are silent. Jerry Clark posts
no original research or work to this list. He posts to attack
and debunk other's postings using the method of character
assasination that so upsets you. Does the archives document your
criticism of him for being out of bounds?

It seems that the use of sarcasm and humor brings out the worst
in people like yourself who immediately use this as an excuse to
ignore the substance of what I was saying.

It is sad when native speakers of English (ok, we speak
American) misconstrue debating technique as hostility. I have
taken the time to point out some of the amusing aspects of
today's ufology; what ever "hostility" has been in evidence
began on the side of my critics, as the record of this debate
will show. As for other researchers being civil to me, the
record in the archives shows the opposite.

Where were you, defender of civility on this list, when I was
called names and insulted by said "researchers". As for Roger
Evans and his post (I note you referred to him as Bruce Evans)
where did you point out the impropriety of his four-fold
invocation? Et tu, hypocrite?

As to the issue of "proof". This is the holy grail of ufology
and is the usual hue and cry of those can't or won't understand
that all you will ever have is evidence supporting hypotheses.
Even the "hardest" sciences only have theories supported by
hypotheses built on evidence and proof in these fields changes
with time and advances. Edward Ruppelt, nearly fifty years ago,
pointed out the hypocrisy of those who clamored for proof in his
book - The Report On Unidentified Flying Objects. If you have
something original to contribute vis-s-vis "proof" then I am all
ears.

Generally speaking on this list those clamoring the loudest for
proof use this as a smokescreen for ignoring discussion of
evidence and hypotheses. An example of this is your response to
my post clamoring for "proof" while you fail to engage in any
discussion, civil or otherwise, of any and all points I raised.

So for those people like yourself who confuse the substance of
the matter with the manner of presentation, here is the straight
version the "academic" approach. Since I note from your closing
remarks that you have already foreclosed any civil discussion
(you "won't stoop to respond"), this is for the benefit of other
"neutral" readers of the list, they will make of you what they
will.

Here we go.

As regards to UFO field investigations, yes, it is upsetting to
hear from someone, me, that much of what one works very hard at
is of little value. However, it is a point of view that is not
mine alone and it is also the viewpoint of the person who is
perhaps the MOST experienced field investigator in this country,
Raymond Fowler. It is a point of view that needs to be heard.

You owe it to yourself to find out why he left those
organizations as he has documented the infiltration of both of
those organizations by some of the most unsavory elements of the
intelligence community and the way in which they corrupted the
purpose and function of those organizations.

Let me point out what he had to say on this matter in one of his
early books:

Raymond Fowler, 'Casebook Of A UFO Investigator', pp. 228-9,
1981. this is in the chapter is called "Where Do We Go From
Here?"

"In my opinion, civilian UFO research is at a dead end. I must
confess that after years and years, investigating and
documenting the same types of unexplained events has become
routine and frustrating. It is disheartening to realize that the
detailed, concise, typewritten reports I mail to MUFON and CUFOS
will be filed and lost in a mountain of other reports."

 "For the most part, UFO research work is voluntary and part
time. Photographs, soil samples, and other alleged UFO evidence
necessarily take a back seat to the routine work of earning a
living. Such second-rate methodology does not impress members of
the scientific community."

As for what was done to these organizations read the following
chapters which are well documented and footnoted:

Chapter 14: Pressure From the Pentagon Chapter 15: Government
Surveillance Chapter 16: The Government's Own Investigations

This was written nearly 20 years ago, in 1981!

Will another 10,000 or 100,000 sighting reports MUFON collects
since the time he wrote these statement change the situation in
the field of ufology or the public understanding of the UFO
situation?

I think not.

You don't seemed concerned with my criticism of Mr. Filer's
portions of the article, does that mean that:

 1. Portions of what he wrote also struck you as inane?

 2. You feel he displayed naivete for someone for someone so
    long in the field?

 3. You accept the misinformation he provided on the security of
    classified information?

 4. You accept his concept of verification of UFO reports which
    has been ignored by the scientific community for nearly
    fifty years?

So are you prepared to deal with these issues now?

See, stooping isn't that hard if each person bends a bit.

Gary Alevy





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 18

                        Re: Kenneth Arnold - Question

From: Gary <galevy@pipeline.com>
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 12:13:52 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 13:04:21 -0500
Subject: Re: Kenneth Arnold - Question


>Subject: UFO UpDate: Re: Kenneth Arnold - Question
>Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 19:26:00 -0500
>From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>To: "UFO UpDates Subscribers":;

>From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
>Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 18:09:13 +0000
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: Kenneth Arnold - Question

<snip>

>And here are my logical, well formulated responses to the above:

>1) I think you are full of crap.

>2) I think the above proves you are full of crap.

>3) I will continue to consider you full of crap as long as you
>don't practice what you preach regarding "verification" of
>facts.

>4) Did I mention I think you are full of crap?


Whenever people can't follow an argument, or can't understand an
argument, their IQ begins to drop. Within days of their first
lapse noticeable declines in intelligence can be noted. In the
case of Mr. Evans, the drop has been most precipitous. A few
more of my messages will have reduced him to absolute jabbering.

It's a sad thing to watch.

Gary





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 18

                       Re: 25 Rules of Disinformation

From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 12:57:51 +0000
Fwd Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 17:05:46 -0500
Subject: Re: 25 Rules of Disinformation


>From: Gary <galevy@pipeline.com>
>Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 19:44:06 -0500
>Fwd Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 11:13:39 -0500
>Subject: Re: 25 Rules of Disinformation

>>From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>Subject: Re: 25 Rules of Disinformation
>>Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 23:34:14 -0500
>
>My remarks in this message will be in response to Mr. Sandow's
>message of January 9th.  I have edited Mr. Sandow's comments
>for space.
>
>A few preliminary remarks are in order.  Here at last we get to
>something of actual interest from my critics, as lame as it is.
>First, we decline from "proof" to "real evidence," which I
>interpret as "evidence convincing to me," or in this case, to
>Mr. Sandow.

>Below we examine Mr. Sandow's remarks, preceeded by a single
>arrow.  My comments are immediately below.
>
>>Evidence is evidence and proof is proof. Sometimes they are the
>>same. Sometimes they are not. It all depends on the validity of
>>the argument that supports the evidence and vice versa.
>
>You know, this is the kind of thing that just stops one in his
>or her tracks.  As my young niece once said to me, "Some dogs is
>boy dogs, some dogs is girl dogs, and some dogs is just dogs."
>In any event, it is a breakthrough of sorts to have Mr. Sandow
>admit that absolute "proof" is not going to be obtained in this
>area and something like "weight of evidence" is going to rule.

Gary, Gary, Gary...

Above, you credit the following statement to Greg Sandow:

>Evidence is evidence and proof is proof. Sometimes they are the
>same. Sometimes they are not. It all depends on the validity of
>the argument that supports the evidence and vice versa.

Greg didn't write that statement. I did. But then again,
research was never your strong point, was it, Gary?

It was part of a post which challenged your interpretation of
"evidence". I can't help but notice that you didn't respond.
More to the point, you are taking the statement out of context
and preventing access of the reader to the supporting
information that surrounds it. So here is the same post, in
complete form:

>Re: 25 Rules of Disinformation

>From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
>Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 20:23:07 +0000
>Fwd Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 14:28:35 -0500
>Subject: Re: 25 Rules of Disinformation

>>From: Gary Alevy <galevy@pipeline.com>
>>Date: Thu, 07 Jan 1999 18:32:44 -0500
>>Fwd Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 17:02:01 -0500
>>Subject: Re: 25 Rules of Disinformation

>Previously, gary offered this heap:

>>>-- What are the real issues in the dispute which broke out last
>>>month over Dr. Hynek? This real issues revolve around the fact
>>>that there is AMPLE evidence, evidence tantamount to proof, FOR
>>>ME, that Dr. Hynek was working both sides of the street in his
>>>later career as Godfather of ufology. What is proof? It is the
>>>evidence that convinces YOU. That is, there is no absolute
>>>proof available in this area, short of the individual at issue
>>>owning up in public

><snip>

>Gary,

>I really don't know where to begin. My head is still swimming
>from such a convoluted self justification for your position
>regarding Hynek.

>"Evidence tantamount to proof" is not proof.

>Evidence is evidence and proof is proof. Sometimes they are the
>same. Sometimes they are not. It all depends on the validity of
>the argument that supports the evidence and vice versa.

>For instance, if a gun is found at a murder scene with my
>fingerprints on it and the victim was killed by that gun, then
>an argument could be made that I killed the victim. However, as
>logical as this argument would be, and as damning as the
>evidence would seem, it is not PROOF that I fired the gun at the
>victim; only that the gun that was used has my finger prints on
>it.

>In fact, the only proof that exists in this increminating
>scenario is that I, at one time, held the gun in my hand. It
>doesn't even prove that I fired it, even once.

>Therefore the argument, though logical, is not valid even though
>the evidence is clear and uncontested. By extension, the
>evidence could not be considered proof.

>Using your logic, if the jury is convinced by the argument, then
>the evidence is therefore proof. Not so (though I might go to
>jail anyway). As we have seen by the lastest Stephens saga, some
>people were convinced by his arguments, others were not. Does
>that mean that the unconvinced are ignoring obvious proof? Of
>course not. The acceptance of an argument does not validate
>"evidence" and elevate it to "proof". Nor does it give validity
>to other arguments that might come up as a result of this
>acceptance.

>I will agree with you on one statement:

>>>That is, there is no absolute
>>>proof available in this area, short of the individual at issue
>>>owning up in public

>Finally, Gary gets it right...

>Later,

>Roger Evans

If you are going to argue something, Gary, at least know to whom
you should be speaking. As far as I'm concerned, your entire
argument regarding Hynek and Larsen is bogus, not because I'm a
big Hynek and Larsen advocate, not because I knew them (I
didn't), and not because of any "importance" that I feel they
play in the UFO arena.

Your argument is bogus of your OWN reasoning:

You maintain that Hynek and Larsen NEVER told anyone, not even
their closest friends, about the "true" nature of their work
concerning the subject of UFOs. Since they never told anyone,
not even you, especially YOU, then any conclusion you form is
JUST PLAIN GUESSING!

Get it through your head, Gary: "They never told anyone"

What part of this don't you understand? After all, it's your own
information, your own assertion. Considering you refuse to
address this issue, I can only conclude that you argue only for
the sake of argument; to see your own words. You offer no proof,
your logic is laughable, and you can't even keep track of who
said what within the simple confines of this list which casts
doubt on anything you might offer as "research".

Your position is a joke.

Later,





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 19

                    Re: 'Rods' - On The Learning Channel

From: Jose Escamilla <rods@rmi.net>
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 11:25:38 +0300
Fwd Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 00:54:42 -0500
Subject: Re: 'Rods' - On The Learning Channel



>From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
>Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 11:02:28 +0000
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: 'Rods' - On The Learning Channel


Roger,

Thank you for responding. Actually most of the cave shots were
not taken from down in the cave. They were shot at the rim of
the cave with sunlight illuminationg all that's flying withn. I
agree that I should have stated the "electronic shutter setting
of 1/10,000 instead of what I wrote. And the arrow did appear in
one frame or field depedning on the distances we shot at.

We hope to get the funding so that we can eliminate all the
doumentation with 30 fps camcoders and shot these things using
Kodak's motion analysis camera systems in stereo at from 250 to
500 "real" fps.

It's been tough since we are the only ones doing this and it's
very hard getting someone to see the potential of capturing one
of these using high speed cameras. The costs are $ 7,200.00 per
month per camera system and we just don't have this budget as
yet. But we will continue and do more tests until we can get to
cave and conduct the study using the high end cameras.

Thanks again for responding.

Regards,

Jose Escamilla





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 19

                       Re: The State of Ufology Today

From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 13:59:38 +0000
Fwd Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 01:00:08 -0500
Subject: Re: The State of Ufology Today


>From: Gary Alevy <galevy@pipeline.com>
>Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 11:56:32 -0500
>Fwd Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 13:01:15 -0500
>Subject: Re: The State of Ufology Today


>>Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 01:37:06 -0800
>>From: Josh Goldstein <clearlt@pacbell.net>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: The State of Ufology Today

Previously, Josh had written:

>>These are selected snips from your post that I think illustrate
>>your caustic and hostile attitude toward Jerry Clark, Richard
>>Hall and MUFON investigators (like myself). I had to look at
>>your displays of hostility even when other researchers were
>>being civil to you and only asking you to prove what you were
>>saying in your posts. [Roger] Evans received the same treatment.

<snip>

Gary replied:

>Where were you, defender of civility on this list, when I was
>called names and insulted by said "researchers". As for Roger
>Evans and his post where did you point out the impropriety of his
>four-fold invocation?

More importantly, Gary, where were YOU to prevent it?

You've had dozens of chances to respond to specific questions
regarding your positions. Instead, you choose to change the
subject, belittle those who oppose you and leave the tough
questions unanswered. Anyone that approaches debate with such a
cowardly attitude is, in my opinion, full of crap as I stated
before. If anyone else reading this list disagrees, I'd sure
like to know why.

Moving on, Gary opined:

>As to the issue of "proof". This is the holy grail of ufology
>and is the usual hue and cry of those can't or won't understand
>that all you will ever have is evidence supporting hypotheses.

Is that why you tried to convince everyone that "evidence" and
"proof" are the same thing in the following statement?:

>>-- What are the real issues in the dispute which broke out last
>>month over Dr. Hynek? This real issues revolve around the fact
>>that there is AMPLE evidence, evidence tantamount to proof, FOR
>>ME, that Dr. Hynek was working both sides of the street in his
>>later career as Godfather of ufology. What is proof? It is the
>>evidence that convinces YOU. That is, there is no absolute
>>proof available in this area, short of the individual at issue
>>owning up in public

When I read this, it strikes me that you are finally admitting
that you have no real proof regarding Hynek and Larsen. Instead,
you resort to "re-defining" what constitutes "proof".

How convenient.

That's like my mother redefining the term "skinny" to include
anything short of 150 pounds (sorry, mom). Maybe we should all
redefine "rich" to include anything short of $200 in our bank
accounts. Of course, we could cut this nonsense short and simple
redefine any unqualified statement as a "fact" and let Gary win
his argument.

And you wonder why I use the term "crap"?

Later,

Roger Evans






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 19

                        Re: Kenneth Arnold - Question

From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 14:27:09 +0000
Fwd Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 01:06:03 -0500
Subject: Re: Kenneth Arnold - Question


>From: Gary <galevy@pipeline.com>
>Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 12:13:52 -0500
>Fwd Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 13:04:21 -0500
>Subject: Re: Kenneth Arnold - Question

>>Subject: UFO UpDate: Re: Kenneth Arnold - Question
>>Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 19:26:00 -0500
>>From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>To: "UFO UpDates Subscribers":;

Previously, I had written:

>>And here are my logical, well formulated responses to the above:

>>1) I think you are full of crap.

>>2) I think the above proves you are full of crap.

>>3) I will continue to consider you full of crap as long as you
>>don't practice what you preach regarding "verification" of
>>facts.

>>4) Did I mention I think you are full of crap?

Gary responded:

>Whenever people can't follow an argument, or can't understand an
>argument, their IQ begins to drop.

My response:

And whenever someone refuses to participate in his _own_
argument, or can't make people understand his argument, his IQ
is already suspect; especially when he tries to redefine
"evidence" as "proof" in order to win. Sadly, you have neither
on your side. My IQ, at least, has room to drop.

Moving on, Gary predicted:

>A few
>more of my messages will have reduced him to absolute jabbering.

>It's a sad thing to watch.

Boy, Gary, you're too smart for me. But then again, sad or not,
you apparently _do_ read my posts, after all. Therefore, you
have no excuse for not answering a single question that I've put
to you. Besides, smart guy, how hard could it be for you to
answer questions from someone with a such a limited IQ such as
myself?

They are in the archives. I'll be awaiting your reply.

Later,

Roger "Dumb as a Sock Drawer" Evans






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 19

                       Re: 25 Rules of Disinformation

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 99 12:48:19 PST
Fwd Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 01:09:28 -0500
Subject: Re: 25 Rules of Disinformation


>Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 19:44:06 -0500
>From: Gary <galevy@pipeline.com>
>To: UFO UpDate <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: 25 Rules of Disinformation

>>From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>Subject: Re: 25 Rules of Disinformation
>>Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 23:34:14 -0500

>My remarks in this message will be in response to Mr. Sandow's
>message of January 9th.  I have edited Mr. Sandow's comments
>for space.

>As we have seen, Dr. Hynek was effectively "blown" by the 1966
>Michigan Swamp Gas incident, as was the Air Force itself, where
>UFO debunking was concerned.  It could have become necessary to
>change the program, drastically, after those events, before
>continuing it in other ways.  The burden of proof in this area
>is, at least in part, on the defenders of Dr. Hynek, I'm afraid.
>A very strong circumstantial case exists for an unfortunate
>interpretation, a case that my critics simply refuse to
>consider.

The always amusing Mr. Alevy just can't let it alone, can he? He
has never let the absence of a shred of evidence discourage him
from making ever wilder claims and accusations.  But you've got
to give the guy credit for honesty.  After repeatedly failing to
produce anything that would remotely persuade any reasonable
observer that Hynek and Larsen (not to mention the other
ufologists [such as Dick Hall, Jan Aldrich, and me], about whom
Gary has hinted darkly) were sinister agents, he now concedes as
much.  How else to interpret his statement that it's up to his
critics to prove _their_ case, when Gary has yet to make one of
his own?

If we were to pursue Gary logic, I could pronounce the earth
flat and announce to the rest of you that the burden of proof is
on you to show otherwise.  Like Gary, I could sneer at your
responses, dismiss them as uninteresting or irrelevant, assert
that I have devastating evidence which I can't go into now
because I'm saving it for an explosive book to appear at an
unspecified time from an unidentified publisher.  I could
further intimate that my critics are in the employ of the Round
Earth Agency, of which Allen Hynek was a suspected member.

Yup, folks, I've just exposed the conspiracy and proved the
case. And to think that -- with the possible exception of Gary
-- all of you out there spent your lives thinking the earth
isn't flat as a pancake. The truth at last.

Jerry Clark







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 19

                 Re: The Truth About The 'Tent Footage' Hoax

From: Bob Shell <bob@bobshell.com>
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 17:31:47 +0000
Fwd Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 07:26:21 -0500
Subject: Re: The Truth About The 'Tent Footage' Hoax


>From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>To: "UFO UpDates Subscribers":;
>Subject: UFO UpDate: Re: The Truth About The 'Tent Footage' Hoax
>Date: Mon, Jan 18, 1999, 5:21 PM

>Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 13:36:30 +0000
>From: Neil Morris <Neil@adm1.ph.man.ac.uk>
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Re: The Truth About The 'Tent Footage' Hoax

>>From: Stig Agermose <Stig_Agermose@online.pol.dk>
>>Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 22:25:28 +0100 (MET)
>>Subject: The Truth About The 'Tent Footage' Hoax
>>To: updates@globalserve.net

>>[List only]

>Stig,

>Thanks for posting this sorry little article, I had it with me
>to OCR in today. I regret it seems to do nothing more than cloud
>the issues even further. I agree completely the Tent Footage has
>remained extreamly fishy since it was first "leaked". (and in a
>number of "versions"!) But this explanation of it's "parentage"
>seems to carry more than a wiff of our watery friends with it.


Sure does.

I was particularly interested in his comments about kicking the
tripod now and then to introduce shake.  I looked again at the
several versions of the tent footage I have and there is nary a
shake in the lot of 'em.

Also, the still used to illustrate the article is from a
different viwepoint than the tent footage and, to me at least,
the body looks different.

Far from answering questions, this article has just raised a
bunch of new ones.

Bob Shell





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 19

                       Re: Military Retirees & Secrecy

From: Dave Vetterick <veterick@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 12:17:10 -0600
Fwd Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 07:29:49 -0500
Subject: Re: Military Retirees & Secrecy


>Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 12:45:04 -0800
>From: judithdale <judithdale@earthlink.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: Military Retirees & Secrecy

>>Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 18:53:01 -0600
>>From: Dave Vetterick <veterick@ix.netcom.com>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>Subject: Re: Military Retirees & Secrecy

>>>From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
>>>Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 09:13:13 EST
>>>To: updates@globalserve.net
>>>Subject: Re: Military Retirees & Secrecy

>>>Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 17:50:20 +0000
>>>From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>>Subject: Military Retirees & Secrecy

>>>>Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 16:46:28 -0600
>>>>From: Dave Vetterick <veterick@ix.netcom.com>
>>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>>>Subject: Re: Military Retirees & Secrecy

>>>>>Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 23:32:40 -0800
>>>>>From: Judith Dale <judithdale@earthlink.net>
>>>>>To: UFO UpDates-Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>>>>Subject: Military Retirees & Secrecy

>>Perhaps I should have written my reply differently. I apologize.
>>However, the snip to Judith's message coming where it did has
>>caused some confusion which I'll attempt to clarify while at the
>>same time responding to Kevin and Roger's posts also noted
>>above.

>Yes, I've noticed the confusion. Actually, its been interesting
>to watch information get skewed simply because its taken out of
>context.

<snip>

>>My question was and still is...What is the basis for the fear
>>that if he talked it would put him, AND HIS IMMEDIATE FAMILY, in
>>"terrible danger", and "it is not SAFE for him to speak".

>>This implies bodily harm would come about if he spoke about 30
>>year old UFO related military secrets.

<snip>

>>Judith said this gentleman now "vehemently hates the military".
>>So the obvious conclusion she makes herself is that its not the
>>oath keeping him silent, but the fear of bodily harm.

>>What was the nature of the threat, and who made it?

>Ofcourse, we don't know the nature of the threat, or who made
>it. The sense of family members is not so much that the danger
>is from "bodily harm" by agents of the military, as it is some
>bigger threat.

<snip>

>FYI, I don't feel that my integrity has been challenged. Quite
>frankly, I'm clueless about the details of the threat, because
>Bill isn't telling us anymore than he has already. I just know
>that he was a Lt. Colonel in Air force Intelligence, responsible
>for a good deal of the Pacific Northwest.

>The threat may not have been one of "bodily harm". For all we
>know, the danger may be in some threat to the human
>socio/cultural/political paradigm.

>I don't think it serves any of us  to make assumptions about
>what the threats involve.

I suggested physical harm. You suggest a threat to humanity.

All I've asked is for someone to explain what the threat is.
This shouldn't violate any oath.

I'm sure you realize this claim of some dire consequences if I
talk bit has been made ad nauseam. Yet I've never seen ANYONE
say what the threat is.

If the threat is real and defined there are ways to deal with it
and eliminate it if its unjust and illegal.

I submit your guy likely doesn't know anything any more
devastating than what Col Corso claimed to know and published in
his book. Yet humanity survives.

No sarcasm intended, perhaps if he read Corso's book he feel
better about talking. I just hate to see potential valuable
information go to the grave.

Dave Vetterick






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 19

                 Re: The Truth About The 'Tent Footage' Hoax

From: Bob Shell <bob@bobshell.com>
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 17:31:47 +0000
Fwd Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 07:26:21 -0500
Subject: Re: The Truth About The 'Tent Footage' Hoax


>From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>To: "UFO UpDates Subscribers":;
>Subject: UFO UpDate: Re: The Truth About The 'Tent Footage' Hoax
>Date: Mon, Jan 18, 1999, 5:21 PM

>Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 13:36:30 +0000
>From: Neil Morris <Neil@adm1.ph.man.ac.uk>
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Re: The Truth About The 'Tent Footage' Hoax

>>From: Stig Agermose <Stig_Agermose@online.pol.dk>
>>Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 22:25:28 +0100 (MET)
>>Subject: The Truth About The 'Tent Footage' Hoax
>>To: updates@globalserve.net

>>[List only]

>Stig,

>Thanks for posting this sorry little article, I had it with me
>to OCR in today. I regret it seems to do nothing more than cloud
>the issues even further. I agree completely the Tent Footage has
>remained extreamly fishy since it was first "leaked". (and in a
>number of "versions"!) But this explanation of it's "parentage"
>seems to carry more than a wiff of our watery friends with it.


Sure does.

I was particularly interested in his comments about kicking the
tripod now and then to introduce shake.  I looked again at the
several versions of the tent footage I have and there is nary a
shake in the lot of 'em.

Also, the still used to illustrate the article is from a
different viwepoint than the tent footage and, to me at least,
the body looks different.

Far from answering questions, this article has just raised a
bunch of new ones.





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 19

                       Re: Military Retirees & Secrecy

From: Dave Vetterick <veterick@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 12:19:11 -0600
Fwd Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 07:32:44 -0500
Subject: Re: Military Retirees & Secrecy


>From: moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com
>Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 19:13:05 +0000
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Military Retirees & Secrecy

>>From: Dave Vetterick <veterick@ix.netcom.com>
>>Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 18:53:01 -0600
>>Fwd Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 14:28:45 -0500
>>Subject: Re: Military Retirees & Secrecy

>>>Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 17:50:20 +0000
>>>From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>>Subject: Military Retirees & Secrecy

>Previously, Dave offered:

><snip>

>>Roger, no offense, but suggesting the government and military is
>>going to inflict illegal bodily harm over this and could get
>>away with it, as you said they likely did over the Contra
>>dealings, is far fetched and bordering on paranoia in my
>>opinion.

>>Intimidation is a tool, but to suggest in this day and time that
>>the military could threaten anything other than putting a person
>>in Ft. Leavenworth much less illegal bodily harm to a person's
>>family, and get away with it just isn't realistic.

><snip>

>>If I were illegally threatened this way by the military, or any
>>REAL government agency I'd be on CNN and MSNBC within the hour.

>And just what, exactly, would you use to back up your claims,
>Dave?

>I can assure you, you'd find it virtually impossible to get on
>any local news station, much less a network, without some kind
>of proof. Based on my access to the news media, I can tell you
>that people make these claims you are talking about on a regular
>basis and are turned away, just as you would be.

Rest assured I'm aware of this, and agree. Since we're dealing
hypothetically just assume I'd find a way to present proof.

>As I stated before, the problem isn't what the government does
>that we know about and can prove; it's what we don't know about
>and can't prove that is the problem. Now, on balance, it would
>seem a reasonable question that if we don't know about these
>things then how can I support my position? Well, as I said, my
>father had film and tapes confiscated MANY times over the course
>of his 45 years in television news. Unless my father and the
>other field engineers he worked with are lying, then I'd say
>this is more than "far fetched and bordering on paranoia".

I don't doubt you. However, if the confiscation were
madeillegally without a court order or making the film to start
with wasn't violating some legal restriction, it wouldn't have
happened the second time without my taking legal action.

<snip>

If I am conducting myself in a just and legal fashion there is
NO WAY I will tolerate illegal actions taken against me by any
group or individual.

The mess Clinton has himself in is evidence enough our system of
justice works albeit slow and ponderous.

You are quite right, I do not fear the Government. If one
doesn't violate the laws of the land there is no reason to.
Anything else in my opinion is not rational.

Dave Vetterick






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 19

                      Re: Anchorage phenomena of 1/8/99

From: judithdale <judithdale@earthlink.net>
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 11:16:49 -0800
Fwd Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 07:37:11 -0500
Subject: Re: Anchorage phenomena of 1/8/99


>From: Geri & Alfred Webre <Ecotoday@aol.com>
>Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 16:51:43 EST
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Anchorage phenomena of 1/8/99

>Hi!

>We are trying to locate an URL or report describing the large
>lights or electromagnetic pulse events that reportedly took
>place over Anchorage, Alaska on or about 1/8/99.  We missed any
>posts that may have described these phenomena.

>Can anyone e-mail us a reference?


I believe you are referring to the apparent meteor that hit near
Anchorage, in early January.

There is an article about it on the 'Earth Changes-TV' website.

URL: http://www.earthchangestv.com/breaking/index.htm

Hope this helps.






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 19

                Angel Hair, Illness And Weather Modification

From: "Tim D. Brigham" <devilsad@ksinc.net>
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 15:32:34 -0600
Fwd Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 07:53:36 -0500
Subject: Angel Hair, Illness And Weather Modification


Contrails Mystify, Sicken Americans
By William Thomas

http://ens.lycos.com/ens/jan99/1999L-01-08-05.html

Mystery Contrails May Be Modifying Weather
By William Thomas

http://www.ens.lycos.com/ens/jan99/1999L-01-12-01.html

If anyone has any further info on these or other angel hair
cases, please contact me at devilsad@ksinc.net ,as a friend of
mine (Brian Boldman) is very interested in the angel hair
phenomenon and has been investigating it for a number of years.

thanks,
Tim Brigham



)+(
www.ksinc.net/~devilsad/ufo.htm The Devil's Advocate
www.ksinc.net/~devilsad/ring.htm Operation MindPhuck
"Better to go hungry than to feast on lies."
)+(








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 19

                       Re: The State of Ufology Today

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 99 14:14:33 PST
Fwd Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 07:58:13 -0500
Subject: Re: The State of Ufology Today


>Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 11:56:32 -0500
>From: Gary Alevy <galevy@pipeline.com>
>To: UFO UpDate <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: The State of Ufology Today

>>Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 01:37:06 -0800
>>From: Josh Goldstein <clearlt@pacbell.net>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: The State of Ufology Today

>>>Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 20:15:06 -0500
>>>From: Gary Alevy <galevy@pipeline.com>
>>>To: UFO UpDate <updates@globalserve.net>
>>>Subject: The State of Ufology Today

Gary and patient and gentle listfolk:

>You object to the style of message that I used; however, isn't
>it true that if I tried to make these points in the "academic"
>style so fashionable today no one would have paid it any
>attention. I have been observing this list for more than two
>years and I see "researchers" you favor insult, degrade and
>debase posters to this list, you are silent. Jerry Clark posts
>no original research or work to this list. He posts to attack
>and debunk other's postings using the method of character
>assasination that so upsets you. Does the archives document your
>criticism of him for being out of bounds?

Of course I don't employ "character assassination," nor do you
list any "original research or work to this list."  (Creative
imagination, Gary, is neither research nor work.)  I oppose
character assassination in principle. (I have been on the
receiving end of it on occasion.)   In any case it isn't
necessary when one is responding to arguments as thinly based in
reason, evidence, and documentation as Mr. Alevy's.

On the subject of character assassination, however, I find it --
to put it mildly -- odd that Gary is objecting to it only when
it allegedly is employed by others. On the other hand, his
character assassination of honorable men such as Allen Hynek and
Sherman Larsen is okay by Gary.  Here's a psychic test for the
rest of you:  I am thinking of a word to characterize Gary's
approach here.  A hint: it starts with "h."

>Generally speaking on this list those clamoring the loudest for
>proof use this as a smokescreen for ignoring discussion of
>evidence and hypotheses. An example of this is your response to
>my post clamoring for "proof" while you fail to engage in any
>discussion, civil or otherwise, of any and all points I raised.

Let me offer this one bit of advice, Gary:  If you are going to
assassinate the characters of your betters -- by leveling the
most serious charges one ufologist can make against other
ufologists -- you had better produce evidence, damned good
evidence, and you had better have a more relevant, compelling
response to your critics than the self-righteous posturing and
subject-changing we've seen so far.  Otherwise, an approach like
yours represents ufology at its worst.

Never having met you personally and knowing nothing about you
beyond what I see on this list, I have no personal quarrel with
you.  For all I know, when you're not bloviating on subjects you
know little or nothing about (a hardly unique human failing),
you're a nice guy.  But the sorts of baseless slanders* you have
directed against some of ufology's true pioneers do no one --
least of all you -- any good.

Jerry Clark


*Last time I used this word, you objected to it.  Look it up in
the dictionary.









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 19

                       Re: Military Retirees & Secrecy

From: Dave Vetterick <veterick@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 12:19:11 -0600
Fwd Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 08:01:38 -0500
Subject: Re: Military Retirees & Secrecy


>From: moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com
>Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 19:13:05 +0000
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Military Retirees & Secrecy

>>From: Dave Vetterick <veterick@ix.netcom.com>
>>Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 18:53:01 -0600
>>Fwd Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 14:28:45 -0500
>>Subject: Re: Military Retirees & Secrecy

>>>Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 17:50:20 +0000
>>>From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>>Subject: Military Retirees & Secrecy

>Previously, Dave offered:

><snip>

>>Roger, no offense, but suggesting the government and military is
>>going to inflict illegal bodily harm over this and could get
>>away with it, as you said they likely did over the Contra
>>dealings, is far fetched and bordering on paranoia in my
>>opinion.

>>Intimidation is a tool, but to suggest in this day and time that
>>the military could threaten anything other than putting a person
>>in Ft. Leavenworth much less illegal bodily harm to a person's
>>family, and get away with it just isn't realistic.

><snip>

>>If I were illegally threatened this way by the military, or any
>>REAL government agency I'd be on CNN and MSNBC within the hour.

>And just what, exactly, would you use to back up your claims,
>Dave?

>I can assure you, you'd find it virtually impossible to get on
>any local news station, much less a network, without some kind
>of proof. Based on my access to the news media, I can tell you
>that people make these claims you are talking about on a regular
>basis and are turned away, just as you would be.

Rest assured I'm aware of this, and agree. Since we're dealing
hypothetically just assume I'd find a way to present proof.

>As I stated before, the problem isn't what the government does
>that we know about and can prove; it's what we don't know about
>and can't prove that is the problem. Now, on balance, it would
>seem a reasonable question that if we don't know about these
>things then how can I support my position? Well, as I said, my
>father had film and tapes confiscated MANY times over the course
>of his 45 years in television news. Unless my father and the
>other field engineers he worked with are lying, then I'd say
>this is more than "far fetched and bordering on paranoia".

I don't doubt you. However, if the confiscation were
madeillegally without a court order or making the film to start
with wasn't violating some legal restriction, it wouldn't have
happened the second time without my taking legal action.

<snip>

If I am conducting myself in a just and legal fashion there is
NO WAY I will tolerate illegal actions taken against me by any
group or individual.

The mess Clinton has himself in is evidence enough our system of
justice works albeit slow and ponderous.

You are quite right, I do not fear the Government. If one
doesn't violate the laws of the land there is no reason to.
Anything else
in my opinion is not rational.

Dave Vetterick






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 19

                 U.K. News: Series On UFOs In The Northwest

From: Stig Agermose <Stig_Agermose@online.pol.dk>
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 23:33:47 +0100 (MET)
Fwd Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 08:06:07 -0500
Subject: U.K. News: Series On UFOs In The Northwest


Forwarded from the newsgroup "uk.rec.ufo".

Stig

***

From: mhubbard@notmyaddress.seeheaders.gov (Mike
Hubbard)
Newsgroups: uk.rec.ufo
Subject: New UFO programme on Granada
Organization: Hulme Community Computing Ltd - Reply
to me at hulmecc u-net com.
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 20:40:28 GMT

Tomorrow (Wednesday) at 7:30pm (not completely sure about the
time) there is the first of a new series about UFOs in the North
West.

The first one deals with crashed aircraft in the Peak District,
according to the Sun TV Guide.

<*> Mike Hubbard. Hulme Community Computing,
Manchester U.K. 0161-226 5088






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 19

                      Re: Military Retirees and Secrecy

From: "Stan Friedman" <fsphys@brunnet.net>
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 20:07:28 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 08:12:19 -0500
Subject: Re: Military Retirees and Secrecy


>From: Ed Fouche <fouche@connecti.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: RE: UFO UpDate: Re: Military Retirees and Secrecy
>Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 22:03:56 -0600

>>From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
>>Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 10:29:20 EST
>>To: updates@globalserve.net
>>Subject: Re: Military Retirees and Secrecy

>>There are certainly hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of
>>people who have served in the military or worked for the Federal
>>Government and have taken security oaths or worked under
>>security restrictions.  For the most part, these restrictions
>>have certainly worked.

>>In today's New York Times an article relates how a book
>>manuscript by former UN arms inspector Scott Ritter has been
>>requested for censorship by the Pentagon, suppposedly because of
>>criticism Ritter has made about U.S. policy.

>>Have there ever been any documented instances of such attempted
>>prior censorship involving any UFO sources?  If followers of
>>this list could provide instances of such events, it would help
>>us move from hypothetical and theoretic discussions to fact.

>>Any known instances, ladies and gentlemen?

>Censorship of alleged secrets is not new.

>From the Prelude to 'The Puzzle Palace' by James Bamford, he
>writes of the War Department trying to suppress the book 'The
>American Black Chamber' in 1930.

>From Chapter, 'Targets'
>He also writes of ITT, Western Union, and  RCA agreeing to
>Provide intercepted communications for Project Shamrock.. ASA
>(Armed Forces Security Agency) headed Project Shamrock. ASA
>later was absorbed into the NSA (National Security Agency.)

>In a meeting on 16 December 1947, with approval of the US
>Attorney General, Secretary of Defense Forrestal met with the
>heads of these companies to assure them that the US Attorney,
>Attorney General Tom Clark -Justice Department, Under authority
>of President Truman, would provide legal Protection to these
>companies. Their fears were valid. Project Shamrock broke
>numerous laws, the Constitution, and these Companies would be
>subject to lawsuits if the Justice Department, And Defense
>Department didn't cover for them.

>Section 605 of the Communications Act of 1934 Prohibited
>interception of communications.

>A little more than 9 months later, Forrestal resigned. A week
>later he was admitted to the Bethesda  Naval Hospital. Diagnosed
>as suffering from anxiety, severe depression, and acute paranoia
>and talked of 'unidentified people trying to get me,' and
>'conspiracies.'

>Was his involvement with the MJ-12 committee the conspiracy he
>was so afraid of?  He was treated for 'involutional melancholia
>psychosis.'

>In the early morning hours of Sunday, 22 May, Forrestal sat
>alone in His hospital room, copying onto sheets of paper the
>brooding lines from Sophocles, 'Ajax,' - "No quiet murmer like
>the tremulous wail," he wrote "of the lone bird, the querulous
>night-" The word nightingale was left unfinished.

>(Allegedly) Forrestal walked across the hallway into a small
>kitchen, tied one end of his dressing gown sash to a radiator
>just beneath a window, and knotted the other end around his neck
>and jumped from his 16 th floor window.

>Was the 'murmer' - the voices he heard from a recovered live
>alien? Was the 'tremulous wail' - the his memory of this event?
>Was the 'lone bird' - the crashed UFO? Was the 'querulous night'
>- the night he was informed of the crash at Roswell?

>Stanton Freedman, Timothy Good, Edgar Fouche (myself) and others
>have written and pondered about what really happened to
>Secretary Forrestal.

>I speculate in 'Alien Rapture' with Brad Steiger, my co-author
>(of Project Blue Book) that Forrestal was murdered because he
>'couldn't handle the truth.'


The Forrestal situation is far more complicated than as
portrayed above.

He had been a workaholic who for his reward as a great Secretary
of the Navy was given the terrible job of Secretary of Defense
being attacked by the Army, Navy, and Air Force all seeking more
money than the country and congress wanted to spend.

His wife had problems. He was on the wrong side with regard to
Truman's recognition of Israel, he was shocked when after the
very surprising Truman Victory. His resignation had been
accepted. His friends were very seriously concerned about him.

Documents at the Truman Library strongly suggest he really was
paranoid. I consider him a casualty of war. Far more concerned
about the Russians than about aliens.

Stan Friedman







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 19

                       UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 4, Number 3

From: Joe Trainor <Masinaigan@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 19:34:26 +0000
Fwd Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 08:19:04 -0500
Subject: UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 4, Number 3


[by way of John Hayes <john@bofrok.freeserve.co.uk>]

UFO ROUNDUP
Volume 4, Number 3
January 18, 1999
Editor: Joseph Trainor

GREEN FIREBALL EXPLODES OVER SOUTHERN ALASKA

On Friday, January 8, 1999, at 10:25 p.m., a fireball of "an
eerie blue or green color" flashed through the sky of southern
Alaska and exploded with "an earthshaking boom."

According to the Anchorage Daily News, "Dozens of people phoned
authorities last Friday to report the event, which happened at
10:25 p.m. Most eyewitnesses described a brilliant and colorful
flash, followed several minutes later by a boom. The boom was so
loud it shook homes in Palmer and Wasilla and was heard from
South Anchorage to Sutton and beyond."

Palmer (population 2,866) is on Highway 1 about 30 miles (48
kilometers) north of Anchorage. Wasilla (population 4,028) is
eight miles (12 kilometers) west of Palmer. Sutton (population
210) is 13 miles (21 kilometers) northeast of Palmer.

"'I wish I could describe it,' said Gina Gilmore, who watched
the fireball from a hot tub near Palmer. 'It was an eerie blue
or green color.. It lit up the whole area. Then we heard an
explosion and it stilled our conversation.'"

"Gilmore said that at first she thought the object was a
shooting star, but its intensity" had her wondering if it could
have been "a missile, an explosion or something from The
X-Files."

"'It was greenish, and it was loud,' said Rachael Wagner, 16,
another observer from Wasilla. She was inside her house and
watched it flash through her window."

Donald Masters, an astronomy professor at the University of
Alaska at Anchorage told the newspaper that he "believes the
flash came from a meteor or a comet fragment, probably the size
of a pumpkin, that exploded about 50 miles above the Earth's
surface."

Scientists thought the meteor to be a latecomer from the
Quarantid meteor shower, which began on December 28, 1998.

"'Imagine a cold rock coming in and getting very hot,' said Greg
Durocher, a scientist with the U.S. Geological Survey. 'It's
under tremendous stress.'"

"Durocher and other observers of the fireball said they heard
the boom about three to four minutes after they saw the flash.
Based on this information, Masters estimated that the object was
about 50 miles (80 kilometers) away at the time of the
explosion."

"There were rumors Friday of the object striking (the ground
near) Parks Highway at Mile (Marker) 141, and reports by pilots
of debris falling, but meteorites are extremely hard to find,
Masters said." (See the Anchorage Daily News for January 10,
1999, "Great ball of fire--Flash in sky is likely exploding
meteor" by Elizabeth Manning. Muchas gracias, Lucy, para esa
noticia.)

GREEN FIREBALL STREAKS OVER NEW HAMPSHIRE

On Sunday, January 10, 1999, at 7:05 p.m., "Bill Slatton was
driving home when he saw what looked to be a green fireball
streak across the night sky" in Pittsfield, New Hampshire (N.H.)

Pittsfield (population 1,717) is on Route 28 about 37 miles (59
kilometers) northeast of Manchester, New Hampshire's largest
city.

"'My God, this thing is as clear as day,' he remembers thinking
to himself. 'It was huge. It was right along side of us.'"

"His fiance, Kathy Bickford, saw it, too. Police departments in
Bow (population 600) and Northfield reported sightings, with
callers describing 'a green flash' in the sky."

"Slatton said he and his fiancee saw the fireball for a few
seconds as they drove south on Route 20 in Pittsfield...He said
it was like the fireball that crashes into the Earth in a recent
Dunkin Donuts commercial."

"'It was descending almost like a plane descending. It's hard to
describe,' Slatton said."

"The object was about the size of a nickel or quarter in the
sky, and perhaps a few thousand feet away and a few thousand
feet up, although it was hard to tell, Slatton said."

"It was to the left of them as they drove south, perhaps landing
or crashing in Pittsfield, Epsom or Chichester, said Slatton, a
property maintenance contractor from Chichester," a town located
six miles (9 kilometers) southwest of Pittsfield. (See the
Manchester, N.H. Union-Leader for January 11, 1999, "'Green
flash' streaks through central NH sky" by Derek Ross. Many
thanks to Greg St. Pierre for forwarding the newspaper article.)

MYSTERY BOOM HEARD NORTH OF CINCINNATI, OHIO

On Sunday, January 10, 1999, dozens of people in Fairfield, Ohio
(population 39, 729), a small city on Route 127 approximately 18
miles (28 kilometers) north of Cincinnati, heard a stunning and
mysterious explosive sound.

The story was reported by newscaster Laura Randall on Channel 9,
WCPO-TV in Cincinnati, that evening.

"Ms. Jenny Morgan of Fairfield 'reported that she had heard
something similar to a shotgun sound.'"

"A second resident told of suspecting someone had thrown
'snowballs' at her house, while a third person described what
they thought was a supersonic crash."

"At least 13 callers (to Channel 9) reported suspicious and
frightening noises."

The sound was "attributed to 'ice heaving' or 'frost cracking'"
by representatives of the National Weather Service at
Wilmington, Ohio.

"Prof. Kenneth Hinkle, a geologist at the University of
Cincinnati, refuted the 'frost-cracking' theory and said "such
explanations are not workable in this instance."

"'In the high Arctic, frost-cracking resembles a sharp snap
similar to a rifle report, which can be felt,' Hinkle told the
newscast."

A WCPO reporter summed it up: "We are left with an unsolved
mystery." (Many thanks to Kenneth Young of Cincinnati UFO
Research for this news story.)

TRIANGULAR UFO HOVERS NEAR FRENCH AIR BASE

On December 1, 1998, a motorist driving through Evreux, a city
in the department Eure approximately 150 kilometers (90 miles)
east of Paris, spotted a triangular UFO hovering nearby at 5:50
p.m.

The witness described the UFO as "having a length estimated at
40 meters (132 feet). The object's speed was about the same as a
conventional French military aircraft." He first saw it hovering
"at an altitude of perhaps 20 to 30 meters," and the object "had
a series of eight white luminous windows along its edge and also
a rotating reddish light underneath."

Stopping his car, the witness watched as the UFO passed silently
overhead. The object was moving toward BA-105 of the
Evreux-Fauville air base operated by the Armee de l'Air (French
Air Force--J.T.)

As the UFO passed over, the car's electrical system suddenly
went dead. The car engine, the radio and the headlights all shut
off. When the witness tried to turn the ignition key, all he
heard was the dead thump of the solenoid. The "blackout" lasted
only 30 seconds. When he tried again half a minute later, the
engine roared back to life.

"Right afterward I went to a phone and called the base at
Evreux-Fauville," he reported, "They gave me a polite dismissal,
as always." A local newspaper ran an article on the incident,
but no other witnesses came forward. (Merci beaucoup at Thierry
Garnier du Cercle Ufologique de Haute- Normandie pour ces
nouvelles.)

UFO MOTHERSHIP SPOTTED IN NORTHERN ITALY

On Saturday, December 26, 1998, at 12:15 a.m., a very large UFO,
described as "a mothership" and "a flying cigar," was seen
passing over Merlengo, a small town near Bolzano in the Trentino
Alps, about 550 kilometers (330 miles) north of Rome.

"The object appeared stationary and at an altitude of 2,500
meters," reported Fabrizio Monaco of Comitato Internazionale per
lo Studio delle Intelligenze Extraterrestri (CISETI). "It was
traveling at about 600 kilometers per hour but appeared to
vanish at about 20 degrees above the horizon. The phenomenon
lasted about one and a half minutes. The weather at the time was
cloudy."

When the cigar-shaped UFO departed, "the object was illuminated
by a luminous flash," Monaco added, "The object appeared to be
fairly large, according to the principal witnesses." (Grazie a
Fabrizio Monaco di CISETI per questo rapporto.)

A week earlier, on Sunday, December 21, 1998, at 11:30 p.m., a
glowing disc was seen at Stra, a village in Veneto province near
Padova, located about 375 kilometers (225 miles) north of Rome.

Giuseppe Isanelli was in his home when he saw a bright flash
outdoors. Leaving the house, he reported, "I saw in a field on
the Via Agnoletto, an area with few houses about, and an object
of circular form about six meters (20 feet) in diameter."

"I left my house and looked at the field, at a distance of 300
meters away, and it was illuminated as bright as daylight by an
object hovering in the sky. It had the appearance of a missile.
It was of a circular form and had its own lights," Isanelli
said. "The object moved slowly at first and quickly gained
velocity, heading for the city of Padova. As I stood there, I
was stunned by the sight."

The case is being investigated by ufologist Francesco Rosati of
Centro Ufologico Nazionale (CUN) in Firenze. (See the Italian
newspaper Il Gazzetino di Padova for December 21, 1998. Grazie a
Francesco Rosati e Alfredo Lissoni di CUN per questo rapporto.)

BELCONNEN--A SECRET NATO BASE IN AUSTRALIA?

A rumored secret underground base at Belconnen, in the
Australian Capital Territory (ACT) near Canberra, has joined
Area 51 in the USA and the underground base at Corsham,
Wiltshire, UK on the ufologists' roster of UFO-related sites.

The base is known as "the Sheep Paddock" and is said to be
located beneath an actual pasture in the Great Dividing Range
near Canberra. Within the field are several antennae arrays and
a small cinderblock security building that houses the elevator
to the underground command post.

"There are at least three stories underground," one source said.
"On the third level, staff members man computer terminals."

Some Belconnen watchers believe that the supposed base will
serve as a national command post during civil unrest in
Australia caused by Y2K. Others maintain that the base is merely
an out-station of the Royal Australian Navy communications
center at Lawton.

Interestingly, that portion of the Great Dividing Range is
rumored to be undercut by humungous limestone caverns.

In his book, MYSTERIOUS AUSTRALIA, Rex Gilroy writes that in
1848 settlers in the area "discovered a great natural limestone
archway through one of the bluffs. Exploring south of here one
day, two young men came across a hole in one of the limestone
cliffs. Realizing it went deep into the cliffside, they went
back to their farmhouse for rags and oil with which to make
torches. Lighting these upon their return, they entered a hole
which they found sloped down into a large chamber from which
another larger hole led off into another chamber, then another
and another...They made a large fire on the cave floor. The
flames mounted gradually to reveal the full extent of the
cavern--some 200 feet across, rising well over that in height,
with a great many formations dripping from the sloping walls."
(See MYSTERIOUS AUSTRALIA by Rex Gilroy, NEXUS Publishing,
Mapleton, Qnld. 1995, page 58.)

Meanwhile, the Corsham Computer Centre (CCC) underground base in
Wiltshire continues to generate a lot of debate.

Matthew Williams of Truthseekers Review magazine stated, "We had
discovered the base and its Black Budget funding, also known as
Maggie's Bunker, in editions of the UK UFO magazine Alien
Encounters and also in our magazine, also we exposed more than
just the base's presence. We took TV crew to the facility and
even got inside, if you can believe that!"

Williams added that his group tried to interest ITV in doing a
show about Corsham, but the network reportedly wasn't
interested. The recent UK broadcast "did show the outside of the
base," Williams added, "but for some strange reason did not show
the inside of the base...why? Big question."

During the week, Gerry Lovell of Far Shores contacted UFO
Roundup to comment on our Corsham story in last week's issue. He
writes, "I don't recall actually making a link between Corsham
and the village of Hawthorn, at least in respect of any tunnel
which may or may not link the two. There is indeed at least one
tunnel under Rudloe Manor, and I am sure" there is one" "in the
area of the Corsham Nuclear Command Centre, but I did not state
there was a link specifically between the two." (Many thanks to
Matthew Williams, Gerry Lovell and the "Belconnen Commandos" for
these items.)

ORANGE FIREBALLS APPEAR NIGHTLY IN NEW SOUTH WALES

On Thursday, January 6, 1999, Margaret W. and her family watched
as a squadron of five orange fireballs flew over their home in
South Cessnock, New South Wales, Australia, a town located 180
kilometers (108 miles) north of Sydney. Amazingly, the UFO
flyover repeated itself the following night, and the night after
that.

By Monday, January 11, 1999, the flights, with anywhere from two
to five "orange fireballs" had passed over South Cessnock. "We
have been seeing these orange fireballs in flight going over our
house for the past six days."

Margaret "said she had got her son a telescope for Christmas,
and they had observed the lights through it. Red, fiery orange
spheres with flames coming out of the back of the objects. They
had four lights in front. Lights were cloudy and white in
colour. The objects were disc-shaped."

She added that "they came from the east," i.e. the Pacific
Ocean, "and went west. She stated that her neighbour came out
and had a look and went back inside to call RAAF Williamstown,
to see if they had any planes in the area. They said no."

Each object "was about the size of a 20-cent piece held at arm's
length." (Many thanks to Diane Harrison of UFO Australian
Research Network for this report.)

BLIMP OR UFO? MELBOURNE CONTROVERSY CONTINUES

Another witness has come forward to report sighting a UFO over
Melbourne, the capital of Australia's Victoria state, on
Christmas Eve, but researcher Alex McMurray thinks the witnesses
were seeing a blimp.

"I was driving home from a friend's place at 2 a.m. on Christmas
Eve (December 24, 1998)," the new witness reported, "Travelling
west toward Port Philip Bay, Melbourne. In the sky was what
appeared to be a disc/sphere that was approximately five times
the size of the moon but a pale orange/amber colour, what looked
like a fairly thin black cloud was in front of the sphere."

"My initial reaction was that someone had moved the moon a lot
closer to the earth. Various other things went through my mind,
including UFOs. However, unfortunately as I was somewhat 'under
the weather,' I immediately went to bed upon arriving home."
(Many thanks to Jeroen Wierda of Picard UFO Research
International for this report.)

Alex McMurray, however, believes that "the orange UFO" seen by
Darren B., his sister and her friend, and the new witness was
actually the Whitman Chocolates Lightship.

"The description of the UFO given by Darren B. fits that of the
Whitman Chocolates Lightship," McMurray wrote, "a large,
yellow-orange dirigible that is used in Melbourne as a camera
platform for sporting games and for joy rides at night. The
dirigible has lights installed inside the baloon and at night
has the appearance of a large orange ball, and it is very quiet
when it is travelling, even close up." (Many thanks to Alex
McMurray for his commentary.)

ATTACK OF THE GIANT TURTLES

"The legendary Hoan Kiem turtle is the real thing, swear
scientists who have studied the creature for years."

"'People are treating it like the Loch Ness monster but this is
not a myth,' says Peter Pritchard, a world-reknowned biologist."

"For generations, Vietnamese parents have been telling their
children about Le Loi, the warrior king who beat back (Chinese)
invaders in the 1400s with his heaven-sent sword." (A kind of
Vietnamese Excalibur--J.T.)

"As the victorious soldier crossed a lake, the weapon jumped
from its scabbard and into the mouth of a turtle, which dove to
the bottom."

"The lake has been known as Ho Hoan Kiem (Vietnamese for Lake of
the Returned Sword--J.T.) ever since."

"But it gets even more shocking. Shell- shocked scientists are
sure the 6-foot-long (2-meter), 400-pound turtle recently
spotted for the first time is the same one from the legend."

"'Yes, that's right. The same turtle,' says Dr. Ha Dinh Duc, a
biology professor at Hanoi's National University who has studied
the creature for years. 'That would make him about 550 years
old.'"

"Experts believe there could be up to five stupendous slowpokes
plodding around the bottom of the lake."

"'People here believe the turtle is sacred,' says Duc, 'They
think only crazy people would want to catch one.'" (See the
National Examiner for January 12, 1999, "Loch Ness turtle
terrorizes Vietnam," page 6.)

(Editor's Comment: A giant turtle matching the description of
the Hoan Kiem turtle appeared during the Jurassic Period 200
million years ago and became extinct during the Pliocene Period
three million years ago. Known as Stupendemys (order Chelonia,
suborder Proganochelydia, family Pelomedusidae), this giant
turtle measured two meters (6 feet, 6 inches) long and "was the
largest freshwater turtle that ever existed." Fossilized remains
of Stupendemys have been found in Venezuela. Wouldn't it be
something if a few of these turtles survived the Ice Age and
found a home in the jungles of Vietnam?)

NEW INSCRIPTION OF KING DAVID FOUND IN EGYPT

"An inscription found in Egypt could be the third rediscovered
ancient text pointing to the presence of the biblical King
David, according to Biblical Archaeology Review."

Prof. Kenneth Kitchen, an Egyptologist now retired from the
University of Liverpool in England has written that the phrase
'Heights of David' seems to appear in a list of place names from
southern Judah found in the Temple of Amun in Karnak, Upper
Egypt. The list dates from the Tenth Century B.C., just after
King David's time."

"Kitchen isn't certain, however, because one letter in the
inscription is ambiguous."

"Some modern scholars have speculated that King David was a
mythological character, but others believe a text found in
Israel in 1993 by archeologist Avraham Biran clearly refers to
the royal 'House of David,' and French paleographer Andre
Lemaire says a damaged inscription from ancient Moab also
appears to name King David." (See the newspaper Providence, R.I.
Journal for January 16, 1999, "Evidence of David?" page D-5.)

from the UFO Files...

1919: ORANGE SPHERE UFOs OVER SALISBURY PLAIN

Eighty years ago, a strange UFO incident took place north of
Stonehenge in the UK. Here it is in the words of one of the
actual participants, British soldier Gordon Wilkins:

"Early in January 1919, about 8 p.m., I and another man of my
corps were returning to our camp. We had been on a ramble to
Figeldean to look at an old church. On a sudden, I was startled
to see in the night sky on the western edge toward Netheravon
three weird coloured globes--red and orange--at a height of
about 3,000 feet. They looked like lanterns illuminated with a
very strong glow."

"As I watched, they floated downwards, and then suddenly and
inexplicably vanished. The famous prehistoric monument of
Stonehenge was some miles south. There were airdromes and
British Royal Artillery camps and ranges some miles away. But at
this time, there was no firing at night. The man who was with me
had apparently seen these globes before."

"Said he to me, notising my astonishment, 'They must come from
the Royal Air Force drome at Boscombe Down.'"

"I think that very unlikely. At that point, thirty-six years ago
(Note: Wilkins wrote this in 1955--J.T.), airplanes had no
apparatus capable of firing off such globes. Nor would there
have been any object in doing so. Moreover, the cockpits were
then open, not closed in as now."

"At that time, it was three months after the Armistice (World
War One ended on November 11, 1918--J.T.), most of the camps and
dromes and firing ranges had demobilized their airmen and
artillerists. Certainly, when I saw these globes, no plane was
to be heard or seen, and on that eerie plain of prehistoric
monuments and Neolithic barrows and other memorials of the long
unknown dead, the air was as still as death. In the silence and
darkness, the effect of these apparitions in the starry sky was
most startling and unnerving."

"I wish to draw attention to the fact that my companion had seen
these phenomena at least four times: in 1917 and 1918. Hence his
lack of surprise; for he evidently--and I think wrongly--
assumed they were devices of the RAF, or perhaps the Army." (See
FLYING SAUCERS UNCENSORED by Harold T. Wilkins, Citadel Press,
New York, N.Y., 1955, pages 222 and 223.)

FUN UFO WEBSITES:

Matthew Williams says photos of the underground base at Corsham
are available at the website. You can look them over at
http://www.truthseekers.freeserve.co.uk/index.htm

Don't miss our parent site, UFOINFO, with its very large gallery
of UFO photos, plus news items, feature stories, links and much,
much more. Log in at http://ufoinfo.com

Back issues of UFO Roundup can be read, accessed and downloaded
at our webpage. Feel free to drop by anytime at
http://ufoinfo.com/roundup/

That's it for this week. Join us next time for a look at more
saucer news from around the planet, brought to you by "the paper
that goes home-- UFO Roundup." See you then!





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 19

                       Re: R.A.M.S. - A Parting Shot?

From: Robert A. M. Stephens <sti3818@montana.com>
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 17:59:57 +0000
Fwd Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 08:29:09 -0500
Subject: Re: R.A.M.S. - A Parting Shot?


Peter,

"He that is first in his own CAUSE seemeth just;
but his neighbor cometh and searcheth him."

-----Proverbs 18:17, KJV


Isn't that the point. Everything I stated pertinent to this
field has been proven by others to be true. You, Bell and
Hoagland, have enmeshed yourselves in great controversy and
suspicion. Why do you insist in this. The industry took my
data as stated and made me into 'scientist for NASA. I was
never a scientist nor have I ever worked for NASA. Over and ove
again I states this. I'm a contractor for them. If you called
the cape you'd know this by now.

Why don't you call here again, and do another little interview.
I'd like to know what in the world you three are so damn afraid
of. I seem to be afraid of nothing in this venue.

You are odd to me. You insisted that I stay in and report daily
on Fence of everyone. That you could overlook the discrepancy
of Mr. Kaluska regarding who at the paper called me on the UFO
report here in Montana. Yet, you edited this information out of
our phone conversation the night of your interview with me. Why
believe one thing but not another.

Now, all has been verified by others. If we get statements from
the State Department or the Department of the Navy, for which I
am totally against, then what do you do then. Do you still
hang onto a lie that is true and embrace a lie that is a lie.

This is illogical. And polls show that you are outnumbered in
your conviction by a factor of 38 to 1. How do you explain
this, regardless of the human factors involved.

If you write me or call me, please be rational Peter. It
doesn't make sense.

You three, Bell-Hoagland-CAUS & Co. are obviously quite
'confused', when all of humanity around you seems to be quite
clear. It is akin you are afraid of something. Deeply afraid.

I fully intend to search the underbelly of this thing and find
out why and what is the aversion you have to truth.

For instance, went to the Enterprise Mission site for the first
time in 2 weeks. There, lo, is the stolen pictures from the
NASA archives of the solid rocket motor exhausts, the craft air
brushed out with PS, and claimed as 'Fireballs' over Turd Peak
and one over Florida. This is a lie. Yet, this is perfectly
acceptable to you.

Paul Dore got sucked into this thing. He has all but proven
Hoagland was the Pegasi hoaxer hands down, and he isn't even a
UFO guy any more than I am. Still you three ignore this fact.

Bell has some hard-on hate for David John Oates. For what
remote purpose, as if somehow David is controlling the data in
his favor, and since by the nature of his technology this is
basically impossible.  His metaphor disctionary is something he
has compiled into a proven tome, not some amalgamated nonsense
to embellish his data. In fact, he test his own data to
failure all the time. Thus, This is simply illogical the attack
on this person.

And the most heinous fact of all is that you three are doing
just what the very platform is of your title of intent toward
'guvmint' and its minions to 'come clean'. It is incredible.
However, the lay public, Everyman, is catching on. Oh, but
they are.

Odd, you accept one lie inexplicably, yet cling to another lie
that was proven to be, in fact, the truth. You are a lawyer.
How do you reconcile this in your mind.

I came to this place searching. I intend to continue, since
I'm no longer the issue.

For me, I plan on carrying this little query of the damned
right up the chain of command within the underwriters of this
industry until the force of truth forces some fundamental
answers. If it can't be achieved by normal accepted means, it
can be done through the ides of those that control the finances
of the engines of this strange regime'--------and that is just
what this cabal of attention getters is, in the truest form.
So, applied technology of reason beckons us all.

You'll see shortly, Peter.


sincerely,

Robert A.M. Stephens
NASA Documentation Program
Stillwater Mills
Contractor-Aerospace
406-745-3818
sti3818@montana.com
http://198.116.116.10/gallery/arts/samples.html






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 19

                        Re: Kenneth Arnold - Question

From: "Ted Viens" <drtedv@freewwweb.com>
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 19:52:07 -0600
Fwd Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 08:32:01 -0500
Subject: Re: Kenneth Arnold - Question


>Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 12:13:52 -0500
>From: Gary <galevy@pipeline.com>
>To: UFO UpDate <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: Kenneth Arnold - Question

>>Subject: UFO UpDate: Re: Kenneth Arnold - Question
>>Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 19:26:00 -0500
>>From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>To: "UFO UpDates Subscribers":;

>>From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
>>Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 18:09:13 +0000
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>Subject: Re: Kenneth Arnold - Question

><snip>

>>And here are my logical, well formulated responses to the above:

>>1) I think you are full of crap.

>>2) I think the above proves you are full of crap.

>>3) I will continue to consider you full of crap as long as you
>>don't practice what you preach regarding "verification" of
>>facts.

>>4) Did I mention I think you are full of crap?

>Whenever people can't follow an argument, or can't understand an
>argument, their IQ begins to drop. Within days of their first
>lapse noticeable declines in intelligence can be noted. In the
>case of Mr. Evans, the drop has been most precipitous. A few
>more of my messages will have reduced him to absolute jabbering.

>It's a sad thing to watch.


Such clever obfuscation, misdirection and self-praise, Gary.
Still, you are ignoring one powerful possibility.  We all
understand your arguments perfectly clearly and Roger's
intelligence is neither weak nor dropping.

Bye...  Ted..






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 19

               Re: Santilli's 'Tent Footage': New Revelations

From: John W. Ratcliff <jratcliff@worldnet.att.net>
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 22:14:03 -0600
Fwd Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 08:39:19 -0500
Subject: Re: Santilli's 'Tent Footage': New Revelations


>Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 16:45:52 -0500
>From: James Easton <pulsar@compuserve.com>
>Subject: Santilli's 'Tent Footage': New Revelations
>To: UFO UpDates <updates@globalserve.net>

James wrote, yet another, mind boggling in it's documentary
detail, message:

<snip, detailed message about Alien Autopsy hoaxing data>

James,

I'm trying to follow all of this in a way.  Am I mistaken or
does this recent tale suggest that Ray did not directly
commission the tent footage? That's yet another spin.  Was there
any answer to the question why the tent hoaxer's kept their
mouths shut so long in all of this?

Didn't you find it interesting that the newspaper article tried
so very hard to confuse the tent footage with the alien autopsy
footage the world actually saw?

For what it's worth, and it still ain't worth nothing, my best
hypothesis, now years old, seems to be holding up strong.  My
original hypothesis was that the alien autopsy (real or fake,
either way), was a carefully orchestrated dissinformation effort
(with or without) Ray Santilli's complicity.  I will not go into
a long dissertation about the nature of dissinformation at this
time.  I have a detailed argument why the hoax for profit makes
no rational sense in this affair.  The completely valid reasons
to reject Santilli's version of events are well documented by
yourself and others.

As far as *why* the dissinformation effort in the first place, I
have a theory there as well.  I don't mind sticking my neck out
on occasion, go ahead and chop it off, that's fine with me.  My
theory remains as before, that if it were a dissinformation
program it's goal was to desensitize the world population to the
images and ideas of dead aliens getting chopped up. Since this
seems to be the only measurable effect of the entire affair I
think it holds up fine.

Or did I just imagine that Roswell Digorno pizza commercial last
night....

John





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 19

                 Re: The Truth About The 'Tent Footage' Hoax

From: James Easton <pulsar@compuserve.com>
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 22:04:44 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 08:36:26 -0500
Subject: Re: The Truth About The 'Tent Footage' Hoax


>Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 13:36:30 +0000
>From: Neil Morris <Neil@adm1.ph.man.ac.uk>
>Subject: Re: The Truth About The 'Tent Footage' Hoax

Neil wrote:

>A couple of the "odd" points in this tale to think about:

>If, as Ray has said in the past ALL his source material was on 16mm
>FILM, why would he approach a VIDEO production company with a TAPE
>for enhancement??. Wouldn't he be far better served taking the FILM
>to a FILM facility and work with the original source material not
>even a first generation TAPE copy?


Neil,

This is an intriguing twist in the tale.

It has been now confirmed that Ray first approached Keith
Bateman's video production company to ask if they could enhance
video tape footage of a supposed 'alien'.

So, at this point:

1. Ray did have some footage on video which he claimed was of an
'alien'. Whether he believed it was genuine we don't know.

2. Significantly, the images were of such poor quality that
nothing could apparently be enhanced.

Therefore, there was presumably some problem with the original
source of the images.

One conceivable explanation is that the original source was old
film, from which the images couldn't be recovered.

It seems unlikely that the video tape at this point in 1994
contained hoaxed 'alien' footage, otherwise there should be no
problem with the image quality.


What's missing to support this hypothesis is evidence that Ray
had in the first instance taken the claimed 16mm film to a
'facilities house', who had then transferred the images from
16mm film to video.

Whilst the evidence may be absent and Ray has never publicly
stated that was the sequence of events, he did tell me this was
in fact "the true story", stating in July of last year that
after the "first footage" was transferred at a facility in
London, "There was practically no image which is why I took it
to the video studio".

This was after Philip Mantle had published details of how he had
been contacted by someone who knew the 'tent footage' was a hoax
and Ray's comments were in response to some questions I asked
him about the hoax claim.

It makes sense and as Ray confided the name of the company who
had transferred the 16mm film, it may be possible to confirm the
providence of this particular claim, although it's proving to be
difficult as the company may no longer exist. Assuming of course
that it ever did.


A further little twist, not mentioned in the article, is that
Keith Bateman confirmed the video Ray provided was in the
American NTSC format.

I would deduce this means that either he had acquired this video
from the US, or, was intending to return it to the US.

Ray's most recent public response to the 'tent footage' expose
was:

"The Tent Footage was the first film material I collected from
the cameraman, it was in the form of 16mm film and in very poor
condition. I brought it back to England and asked a studio
facility in Milton Keynes to retrieve whatever image they could
from it. Approximately a week (maybe longer) after delivery the
Studio in Milton Keynes presented me with the film which has
become known as the ""Tent Footage" I was told that this was all
that could be retrieved from the film.

I had informed the cameraman by telephone that we were able to
retrieve some image and indeed showed the film to Philip Mantel
and other interested parties. I returned to the States later to
collect the main film and showed the "Tent Footage" on VHS to
the cameraman".


Now this is a significantly different story from Keith
Bateman's, who maintains that Ray knew the 'tent footage' was a
hoax.

Leaving this aside for the moment, if Ray did intend to show the
'cameraman' what had been retrieved from the 16mm film, he would
surely have had the results copied onto an NTSC formatted video
tape. Yes, he does say it was on VHS, however Ray isn't someone
who is precise with details, even when he's retelling a story
known to be true, and I would take this to mean that he _claims_
to have shown the 'tent footage' on video, i.e. "VHS" to the
'cameraman'.

If he ever did so, it would surely be an NTSC formatted video,
rather than the UK standard VHS.


Could it be that he did have some old 16mm film transferred to
NTSC formatted video and that the resulting images were so poor,
he asked some friends in the video industry f they could improve
the quality?

There are indications this may, conceivably, be true.


Even accepting the problems with Ray's 'tent footage' promotion
and that he may have known all along it was a hoax, it's like
the central 'alien autopsy' scenario in many respects.

Before dismissing all of Ray's claims and out of hand, there's
way too many unanswered questions.


>How were the hoaxers hoping their plan would hold water using TAPE
>only, there seems to be no mention of what they were planning when
>people started to ask "Where is the FILM".

I doubt Keith Bateman and Andy Price-Watts were thinking that
far ahead!

If they had been promoting the 'tent footage' as in effect a
'Roswell alien autopsy', which, as I suggested long time ago it
was actually supposed to be, it could be claimed the original
film was held by a 'collector', the 'cameraman', had been eaten
by the family's dog, etc.

No major problem in not providing any original 16mm film, as Ray
Santilli will tell you.


>Before anyone jumps down MY throat with "Well Ray Santilli has never
>produced any!", he DID produce "some" damaged film which WAS tested
>and found consistant with the film type alledgedly used and only in
>production by Kodak until the mid 1950's.


The possible dating of those samples, which were not original
film, remains debatable.

What isn't, is that the 'samples' did not contain any images
from the 'alien autopsy'.


>In all probibility the Tent Footage is a hoax AND it may well have
>been put together by the people behind the Mail's article BUT, the
>story THEY ARE TELLING seems to have serious problems too.

No question they produced the 'tent footage' and have explained
how part of it came to be on the 'Penetrating the web 2' video.
Even Ray admits they manufactured the footage.


I heard from Ray earlier today and he wasn't too thrilled about
the 'Mail on Sunday' article, maintaining that his account of
the 'tent footage' was true.

He noted that the article was picked up by the 'Daily Star'
newspaper today and I see that they published a still from the
'alien autopsy', claiming it was now proven that this was filmed
in a Bedfordshire barn.

He wasn't too pleased about that either and made the point:

"Heres one for you...if the AA film was a hoax imagine how angry
the makers would be seeing someone else trying to steal the
limelight....".

A fair point, although as I explained to him, it might be argued
that the presumed 'alien autopsy' hoaxers couldn't come forward
to claim the glory without considerable repercussions, not least
the long term financial benefits to Ray and associates and they
may all have reached an agreement where this simply won't
happen.


A truly bizarre affair.



James.
E-mail: pulsar@compuserve.com





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 19

                      Re: Military Retirees and Secrecy

From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 23:15:24 EST
Fwd Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 08:42:21 -0500
Subject: Re: Military Retirees and Secrecy


>From: moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com
>Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 19:13:05 +0000
>Fwd Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 10:42:39 -0500
>Subject: Re: Military Retirees & Secrecy

Roger Evans offered this opinion in today's post:

<snip>

>[TV] stations are not going to cooperate unless someone has
>iron clad proof. A sure fire way for a station to go out of business
>is to butt heads with the government without anything to back
>them up. Don't forget, a station must have an FCC license and
>the government is under no obligation to renew it in a timely
>manner, if at all, if they do not want to. Being off the air for
>only a month or two can be irreversibly devastating.

Roger, can you cite any example of a Television station in
America having its license yanked or suspended in this manner
because it broadcast something it couldn't prove?

Please be specific with examples.

Bob Young







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 19

                       Re: R.A.M.S. - A Parting Shot?

From: Peter A. Gersten <UFOLAWYER1@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 23:05:00 EST
Fwd Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 08:45:12 -0500
Subject: Re: R.A.M.S. - A Parting Shot?

An Open Letter To Robert A.M. Stephens


Robert,

Since you have decided to address an e-mail to me with a
distribution list of about a dozen, I thought I would send you
an open letter.  Interesting who you seek attention from.

I have no quarrel with you and am not sure why you continually
refer to me, Hoagland and Bell in the same context.  Are you
trying to make a point?  Is there something on the CAUS website
you find intentionally false?  Is there something that I have
said about you not true? On the other hand, I would love to
cross-examine you about everything you have stated in the
past...on any radio show of at least one hour. Maybe we should
find out if anyone still wants to listen to you 'debate' anyone
about ten questions, let alone 200, afterwards.

My main concern in calling you that night was to ask about
NORAD/Fence...something that you had repeatedly stated that you
had access to through your NASA affiliation.  You refused to
discuss the subject and told me that you no longer would provide
any further information.

I see that you have now resurfaced, after promising me that
night that you no longer would having any involvement with
anyone associated with the UFO phenomenon.  I guess your word is
as good as your ability to tell truth.

You and I both know what we talked about for over 60 minutes
that night.  You admitted that you lied about several things.
Though you never admitted it, I now believe you lied about your
access to classified NORAD/Fence records.  I also believe you
fabricated the information pertaining to NORAD's identification
of both the Montana and Phoenix UFOs.

Though I have seen Michael Theroux's website concerning a radar
system possibly similar to what you were describing, I have
little doubt that you knew about that website before Michael
posted it, and probably modeled your answers to CAUS based upon
it.  IMHO you have no access to any military security system,
let alone classified information.

The information you supplied CAUS was obtained from information
in the public domain and not beCAUS of any 'inside' information.
It appears that you are not presently employed and spend most of
the day surfing military related websites for information that
you then tell everyone was learned from your contacts.

And what is the reason you have resurfaced?  To assist the UFO
field in learning the truth?  Or maybe to provide CAUS with a
weekly report of the 100-220 intruders a day that you have
stated are entering our airspace.  Or maybe help explain why we
are experiencing a sudden increase in meteor/fireball activity
throughout the planet.  Or maybe to help CAUS determine what
these triangular UFOs are?  For some reason...I don't think so!

You have resurfaced to show us the negative side of
ourselves....the attacking, profane and disrespectful side.  The
shadow side that seeks attention by defaming others rather than
anything constructive of our own. The part that believes it
needs to lie about itself in a vain attempt to acquire some
false self-esteem and importance.

You have been shown to be a liar.  You have admitted to being a
fraud.  Your 'confession' was also self-serving since I informed
you that I would be posting the contents of our interview in
that night's CAUSupdate.  To lessen the effect, you gratuitously
posted your 'confession' in an attempt to ridicule it.  You no
longer have any credibility.

If you have a personal problem with Richard Hoagland or his
work, take it up with Richard. He has a fax number.  If he
ignores your correspondence, that is his choice. I, and
hopefully most other People, are fully capable of judging
Richard on the merits of his past and present work and
statements.  When were you elected 'prosecutor?'  I suggest you
find a more productive way of getting attention.

Peter A. Gersten






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 19

                     And The Truth Shall Set Its Fee...

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 03:18:43 EST
Fwd Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 09:00:37 -0500
Subject: And The Truth Shall Set Its Fee...


Dear Errol, Skeptics, Believers and Faith Healers...

Allow me, alas a mere mortal, an opportunity to evaluate your
performance, as a group. Of course, I refer _ONLY_ to those few
of you who are the culpably ignorant. You know who you are.

You are the folks who understand the phenomenon of alien
abduction better than those of us who have actually had the
experience.  You are the ones who gravely pontificate about what
you know the phonemenon to be, or not to be.  There is no
question.  For when you have the answers to all the questions,
there are no longer any questions, eh?

You are the ones who tell us what we've experienced.  You are
the ones who are the experts (remember my personal definition of
an ex-spurt.... which is to say a has-been drip).  You have
spent years, decades, researching the question.  You have
decidedly heaved in an orgasmic lurch, to the conclusions to
which you have arrived, by simple logic and reason.  Not one dot
of emotion in the decision.  Not at all like us, the abductees.
We are the emotional critters. God, you can dress us up but you
just can't take us anywhere, can you?

And when you speak, like that bull in the commercial, everyone
stops what they are doing and turn to listen... listen to the
wisdom.  And look out for the spoor.

But I must tell you that the result you seek is not the result
you garner. No. When I read some of the drivel I at first become
angry at such stupidity, such pigheaded non sense.  After a
while I tell myself, hey, the guy is trying. Very trying,
indeed.  Later, as I think further on the opinions you vector
vomit (from a distance) I realize that there is no respect for
you.  There is only disrespect.  There is no admiration. There
is only the image of a fool.

Here I sit, knowing what I and others like me have experienced
and known to be so in our reality, listening to you and laughing
in anger, to know something to be so and have someone tell me it
is not so.

Let me give you an example of sorts.  I was asked to appear as a
witness in a trial.  I said to myself, there is nothing to worry
about.  I have nothing to hide, nothing to be ashamed of,
nothing in my past which would even out a dent in my
credibility... all I must do is tell the truth.  Now, what can
anyone do to malign the truth, or cause it to be a falsehood?
What is, is.  What is not,
is not.

I am the naive fool.

For a total of fifteen hours I was beaten about head and face,
body and soul, heart and intellect, finding myself the
defendant, not them.  The lawyers, God bless their black hearts
(some of them) did their level best to impugn my credibility.
They must have spent tens of thousands of dollars researching
everything they could find in my life.  I found myself defending
not only the truth, but the person behind it, me.  I found out
that truth can be reduced by doubt and innuendo.  I defended
myself and in the end, the case was won. It was my testimony
that did it.  But I had suffered so much that I seriously doubt
I would ever volunteer again, to do my duty.  I was drained.  My
body and my very soul had been abused... by bad people.  You
have to be bad to attempt to do to another what these attorneys
attempted to do to me.  They lied and cheated and ill-used
truth.

Is there an analogy in this?  You bet there is.  For me at
least.  The same is true when I hear innuendo and doubt cast
about as if it were truth... someone else's truth, about the
abduction experience.  What is, is.  What is not, is not.

Unless you are on the witness stand, being interrogated by
people who would defend their truth not because it is truth, but
because it serves them to claim it is the real truth.

The moral?

You, you who speak truth, I worship you.  You, who speak your
truth, I admonish with this caveat.  Your truth may be a lie.
And you must live with that.

My truth is truth.  I can live with that.

Jim





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 19

                             UFO Communication?

From: Josh Goldstein <clearlt@pacbell.net>
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 00:57:41 -0800
Fwd Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 09:08:31 -0500
Subject: UFO Communication?


Fellow UpDates subscribers,

All the past discussion of SETI and alien communication has
brought me to pose a question. How do UFOs communicate?

With the long history of UFO reports, from discs to triangles,
how do you suppose they communicate ship to ship or ship to
base? Abductees report personal telepathic messages. Is it
assumed that UFO occupants also communicate telepathically
between ships? If they communicate using the electromagnetic
spectrum why can't that be detected and perhaps interpreted?
What other forms of communication may they use? What do you
postulate?

If the flying triangles are terrestrial in origin I assume we
would be able to detect many scrambled radio messages. Why don't
we?






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 19

                       Re: Military Retirees & Secrecy

From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 08:57:52 +0000
Fwd Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 09:24:40 -0500
Subject: Re: Military Retirees & Secrecy


>From: Dave Vetterick <veterick@ix.netcom.com>
>Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 12:19:11 -0600
>Fwd Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 07:32:44 -0500
>Subject: Re: Military Retirees & Secrecy

>>From: moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com
>>Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 19:13:05 +0000
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>Subject: Military Retirees & Secrecy

Previously, Dave had written:

>>>If I were illegally threatened this way by the military, or any
>>>REAL government agency I'd be on CNN and MSNBC within the hour.

My previous response:

>>And just what, exactly, would you use to back up your claims,
>>Dave?

Dave writes:

>Rest assured I'm aware of this, and agree. Since we're dealing
>hypothetically just assume I'd find a way to present proof.

>... if the confiscation were
>made illegally without a court order or making the film to start
>with wasn't violating some legal restriction, it wouldn't have
>happened the second time without my taking legal action.

Against whom, Dave? You think these guys are going to politely
give you their names and admit later what they do? We're not
dealing with the hypothetical, here; that's the whole point.

>If I am conducting myself in a just and legal fashion there is
>NO WAY I will tolerate illegal actions taken against me by any
>group or individual.

>You are quite right, I do not fear the Government. If one
>doesn't violate the laws of the land there is no reason to.
>Anything else in my opinion is not rational.

Well, for starters, my father and his co-workers did nothing to
violate any laws, so your assertion simply isn't true.

Secondly, no offense, but you seem to be confusing two concepts:

1) Your own personal courage.

2) The honesty of the government.

Just because you, personally, do not fear the government does
not mean there's nothing to be feared by others. More to the
point, the government does NOT walk the straight and narrow out
of fear of Dave Vetterick, or anyone else, I can assure you.

Take care,

Roger Evans






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 19

                       Re: R.A.M.S. - A Parting Shot?

From: Josh Goldstein <clearlt@pacbell.net>
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 01:20:11 -0800
Fwd Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 09:18:29 -0500
Subject: Re: R.A.M.S. - A Parting Shot?


>Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 14:57:46 +0000
>From: Robert A. M. Stephens <sti3818@montana.com>
>To: UFO Updates Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Release-For Post

>Please post far and wide.

>One Last Little Item From The 'Fraud' Robert A.M. Stephens

>Hello everyone. Since it has been universally disclosed and
>concluded that I am a fake and a charlatan and a liar---in
>essence,  a Fraud, it should be fitting to close the last
>final chapter on this debacle in true, revealing fashion in
>the same venue as my undoing was set in motion.

>So, with that fact stated, that last little item is still
>those vexing 199 remaining questions I was invited to debate
>with Richard C. Hoagland, esteemed plank owner of The
>Enterprise Mission, but was deprived from asking.


Mr. Robert A.M. Stepehens:

What is your real motivation for your proposed debate with
Mr.Hoagland? Anyone who studies Ufology and can think for
himself already is well aware of Mr."Mars face" Hoagland's self
delusions. Any regular listeners of Art Bell who still believe
anything Hoagland says have their own sets of problems. I don't
think anyone can illuminate their dimness. Are you trying to
prop up your wounded ego vs. Art Bell?

In a recent post announcing your resurrection you claimed that
many people have posted you with links, etc. that support the
truth of your claims. What I would rather see you do is to post
on this list the truth behind your UFO related claims and the
sources of that truth so they may be verified in a forum of
bonafide researchers. I don't want to sound crude but perhaps
you are familiar with the phrase 'put-up or shut-up'? So how
about putting-up so you can gain some credibility? That would
serve your credibility more than a debate with people like
Hoagland.

Josh





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 19

                 Re: The Truth About The 'Tent Footage' Hoax

From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 06:56:37 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 09:26:41 -0500
Subject: Re: The Truth About The 'Tent Footage' Hoax


>Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 17:31:47 +0000
>Subject: Re: The Truth About The 'Tent Footage' Hoax
>From: Bob Shell <bob@bobshell.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>

<snip>

>I was particularly interested in his comments about kicking the
>tripod now and then to introduce shake.  I looked again at the
>several versions of the tent footage I have and there is nary a
>shake in the lot of 'em.

>Also, the still used to illustrate the article is from a
>different viwepoint than the tent footage and, to me at least,
>the body looks different.

>Far from answering questions, this article has just raised a
>bunch of new ones.


I was surprised by that comment as well, but it could be that
those sections of the "video" never made it to the final cut.

When this matter first broke last year I seem to recall that it
was alleged that Santilli requested an autopsy sequence from the
same production company and when they were unable to meet the
deadline, he reportedly took that request to another production
group (in Gemany, if memory serves). This doesn't seem to match
the comments being made in the article, which seems to support
Ray Santilli's claim that he was duped by them when they were
unable to obtain images from the "film" they had been given.

On the other hand, I've heard that color images from the
original video may be available, and that would certainly help
to confirm it's being a hoax. Otherwise, we're still dealing
with annecdotal evidence.

Steve





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 19

                         UpDates Server Brain-Cramp

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 09:49:23 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 09:49:23 -0500
Subject: UpDates Server Brain-Cramp

If mail intended for the List bounced back to you please
re-send.

Thanks,

ebk






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 19

                       Re: R.A.M.S. - A Parting Shot?

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 08:17:09 -0600
Fwd Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 09:43:17 -0500
Subject: Re: R.A.M.S. - A Parting Shot?

>Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 14:57:46 +0000
>From: Robert A. M. Stephens <sti3818@montana.com>
>To: UFO Updates Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Release-For Post

<snipped strident proclamations contributing to the evolving
 featureless murk of the could-not-be's and the
 might-have-been's>


>For me, I plan on carrying this little query of the damned
>right up the chain of command within the underwriters of this
>industry until the force of truth forces some fundamental
>answers. If it can't be achieved by normal accepted means, it
>can be done through the ides of those that control the finances
>of the engines of this strange regime'--------and that is just
>what this cabal of attention getters is, in the truest form.
>So, applied technology of reason beckons us all.

>You'll see shortly, Peter.

>sincerely,

>Robert A.M. Stephens

Perhaps (?) -- but I would find your arguments more compellingly
convincing if you would refrain from your encopric and
unsettling digressions, for a moment, and answer those questions
a few of us had regarding STS-48. <g>.

Lehmberg@snowhill.com
--
Explore the Alien View!
Ponder the Wit & Wisdom of Ching Chow!

http://www.fortunecity.com/roswell/arecibo/46/

<Updated 18 January>

John Ford Restoration Fund -- Send your checks and
money orders to _me_, Alfred Lehmberg
(cut out the lawyers, they got their's) at:
304 Melbourne Drive, Enterprise AL, 36330. Strict records kept.

"Only thin, _very light_ envelopes with a return address will be
accepted <g>." ~~~ $225.00 pledged -- $125.00 collected ~~~

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see from
afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, while burning at the
fundamentalist's stake.






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 19

               Re: Truth Detracting Elements of the Abduction

From: Steve Jones <svjones@jps.net>
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 06:56:47 -0800
Fwd Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 12:57:41 -0500
Subject: Re: Truth Detracting Elements of the Abduction


>Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 13:33:50 -0800
>From: Ed Stewart <ufoindex@jps.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: Truth Detracting Elements of the Abduction Phenomena

>>Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 19:56:55 -0800
>>From: Steve Jones <svjones@jps.net>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>Subject: Re: Truth Detracting Elements of the Abduction Phenomena

Greetings to all,

Ed Stewart has made some comments as to my character that I
would like to address.

1.  First of all, Ed is correct as to my avocation. I have been
an automobile service professional for over 20 years. This gives
me the opportunity to talk to people from all walks of life,
which is something that I enjoy. I seriously doubt that anyone
here is a professional UFOlogist. Occasionally I run into
someone who provides a piece to the puzzle. You would be
surprised.

2.  The comments that Ed has made about my plotting with Richard
Boylan to invade his privacy are patently false and he knows it.
I have known Richard Boylan for many years and although we
markedly disagree with each other on many of the aspects of an
alleged alien presence, I still respect him for his
perseverance. Contrary to Ed's statements, I have never and I
repeat never gone through anyone's trash. Ed on the other hand
has a real problem with Richard Boylan. At Rich's trial, Ed was
in the front row.

3.  Joe Ball was a user on the BBS that I ran here in
Sacramento for about 2 1/2 years. We started to meet for coffee
and discuss UFOlogy and several incidents that involved a couple
of Joe's friends. Joe told me that he was an ex-US Air Force
security guard. He lived and to my knowledge still lives within
100 feet of the NW boundary of the base property surrounding
McClellan AFB. As such he was able to observe much of the daily
going's on at the base, which has historically played a key part
in the development of advanced aircraft. It is a matter of
public record that the base has the only hanger that is capable
of x-raying a complete airplane. They also have a very
specialized fabrication facility that as an example, completely
redesigned and modified the F-111. In addition to being an
ex-security guard, Joe is allegedly 1/2 Cherokee indian. As I
unfortunately learned, he doesn't take to harassment kindly. He
knew that I really didn't like Ed, as he has not been the
easiest of people to coexist with over the years. If my stating
to him that I didn't like Ed could be construed as inciting Joe
to do what he did, so be it. As for my actually inciting Joe, I
could care less what the man signed. He is a family man, who was
in the process of completing a workman's comp case. He was also
retired military and I'm sure that this played a part in this
case. What he stated is simply not true, regardless of what Ed
would like to believe. He was over a barrel and he knew it. The
event that really brought things to a head occurred on a Friday
in early February of (as I recall) 1994, when several NASA
planes started to arrive at McClellan, along with about 8 Marine
Harriers. They all parked on the tarmac close by a hanger that
is situated near the boundary at the SE end of the runway. This
hanger is very broad and was open to the north to were through a
pair of field glasses, Joe said that there was a very unusual
plane inside. He stated that previously the hanger had held two
KC-135's side by side and that this craft almost filled the
hanger by itself.

Later that evening Joe called me and told me that they had
pulled the plane out (it took two tugs to do it) and that the
craft had at shortly after 10 PM on that Friday night blown
straight up (as in an anti-gravity style takeoff) through a thin
1500 foot cloud layer, punching a hole in it. Within a day or
two from this event, Joe told me that he had gotten a crank call
at 4:00AM from a person that he thought was Ed. As I have
stated, Joe doesn't take well to threats, and while driving him
home from one of our coffee meetings, he simply asked me where
Ed lived and while driving south on Watt avenue I pointed out
his house and a matter of fact manner. I never, and I repeat
never insinuated that Joe should do anything negative towards
Ed. Joe did this of his own volition. Later on during the week
when I was away from the house at work (at about 10:45AM), Joe
dialed into my BBS and posted a very negative and threatening
message on the system, which went out with the mail that was
picked up before I got home. The result of this was that both
Joe Ball, myself and my BBS were banned from FIDO-UFO. I was not
banned for life from BAMA. John Powell did become pretty
disgusted with the tone of the dialog on echo that he had
inherited from Scott Ecker (no relation to Don). To say that I
got screwed was a mild understatement. For the record, it really
didn't bother me for that long, as the BBS was a pain and I only
put it up as an alternative to Ed's.

4. Regarding Ed's comments on my supposedly being ostracized
from the Sacramento UFO Group, which was an informal discussion
group that met once a month on a Sunday at a pizza parlor, that
too is patently untrue. I resigned as co-moderator because I had
just accepted a very lucrative service advisor position (yes,
that is one of the positions that I have held over the years in
the automobile business), and it required that I worked on the
weekends (for a $45,000 a year position that required working
just 4 days a week, what would you do). When this occurred, I
handed the job over, of my own volition to another of the
originating people in the group.  An interesting event then came
to pass. Ed, who had become increasoingly belligerent with me,
made a totally out of character sincerre request to me to make a
public statement to the group regarding my choice of
replacement. His motivation for this was there was another
person who was vying for leadership of the group, and Ed wanted
to cut this off. His name was John Maylone and he was part of
the 50's Van Tassel group from Southern California. At the time
the discussion group attendance would range from about 10 to as
many as 25. Once we had a picnic that was attended by almost 75
people. Shortly thereafter, Ed took over the moderatorship of
the group and it is my understanding that large numbers of the
group went elsewhere to talk. Many went with Maylone.

5.  Regarding the comments on Richard Miller, Ed is correct. He
and I did meet at the time that I was looking into the validity
of Miller's claims about a landmark (USGS marker peak) in the
northern Sierra Nevada mountains called Pilot Peak. Richard had
claimed that there was an alien pressence there. I made several
trips to the place after the initial one with Ed, and have
publically stated on numerous occasions that I have never found
anything to comfirm the allegations. Since there is always the
possiblity of a transient paranormal aspect of this phenomenon,
I have never closed the book on this particular case however.

As for Richard Miller, I personally like the man. He is a very
personable person, just like Richard Boylan. From my background
in the social sciences and my over 20 years in customer
relations, I have learned to be pretty tolerant of people's
views. I do have an aversion to belligerence and that is were Ed
and I ultimately parted ways.

6. Regarding Ed's comments on my allegedly advocating hypnotic
regression to anyone, this too is patently false. In fact, I am
not really a big fan of this methodology, as I agree with the
skeptics assertion that the patient can be led. I have a similar
position on channeling. As for video tapes from Chris Stratton,
the only ones that I am aware of are the ones that he digitally
enhanced from the couple down in Calaveras. There are no videos
of me attempting to direct anyone. I have taken people on
"sightseeing tours" much like the one's that I took Mike
Christol on up to Bowman Lake (where Sean Michael Morton has
experienced sightings just prior to his attending the 1991 Las
Vegas Conference) and down to Calaveras, which has a history of
sightings (some of which have been shown on local television
news shows). You comments on the "shyness" of the UFO's is
laughable. I have never said any such thing. I simply told
people of the history of the area and if they wanted to go, I
either told them how to get there, or took them myself. I have
alsways enjoyed "outtings" and we had lots of fun doing these,
as Mike will atest to. Simply good times with good friends.
Nothing more and nothing less.

7. As for the close friends issue, you are really way off the
mark here. My close circle of friends is still intact. In fact,
I have made numerous new ones. Regarding my allegedly alcoholic
friend, who regardless of this is a good person, yes I still
hang out with him. It seems that his knowledge of certain
historical events in UFOlogy have not gone unnoticed by at least
some folks, including Jacques Vallee, who bought him dinner and
discussed several issues. He has also spent time on the phone
with some major scientific people. He was, as a matter of
record, one of Marcel Vogel's lab technicians when the Meir
metal was tested.

In closing, the good people of this List do not desearve this
kind of dialog. This is what ultimately denigrated the FIDO
echos. I respect what Errol is doing here and will not
discuss this thread any further. For several years now, as
Michael Christol will attest to, I have stayed away from computer
discussion groups. I simply get more things done by doing this.
I continue to this day to go at this endeavor from a folkloric
point of view, fully aware that most of what is said is lore,
rather than fact. There is, however, a germ of truth in all of
this, regardless of comments to the contrary. Far beyond good
people like Corso, Michael Wolf, and others who have had the
guts to come out and discuss this, there are hundreds of others
who talk privately about it. Oassionally one comes across one
of these special people. Even though they often only speak of
it in guarded terms, the occassionally provide key pieces to
this most illusive puzzle. It is a simple method, and it works.
The puzzle has, over the years, become much more clear.

Steve Jones







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 19

                      Re: Military Retirees and Secrecy

From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 09:36:42 +0000
Fwd Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 12:51:47 -0500
Subject: Re: Military Retirees and Secrecy


>From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
>Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 23:15:24 EST
>Fwd Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 08:42:21 -0500
>Subject: Re: Military Retirees and Secrecy

>>From: moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com
>>Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 19:13:05 +0000
>>Fwd Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 10:42:39 -0500
>>Subject: Re: Military Retirees & Secrecy

Previously, I had written:

>>[TV] stations are not going to cooperate unless someone has
>>iron clad proof. A sure fire way for a station to go out of
>>business
>>is to butt heads with the government without anything to back
>>them up. Don't forget, a station must have an FCC license and
>>the government is under no obligation to renew it in a timely
>>manner, if at all, if they do not want to. Being off the air for
>>only a month or two can be irreversibly devastating.

Bob responds:

>Roger, can you cite any example of a Television station in
>America having its license yanked or suspended in this manner
>because it broadcast something it couldn't prove?

>Please be specific with examples.

Hi Bob,

I know of no station that had its license yanked or suspended.
Of course, that's not what I said, anyway. Yanking or suspending
a license would be far too obvious a retaliation in the public
eye. The most subtle way for the government to enforce anything
in the broadcast arena is to delay or deny renewal of a licence
by way of "lost paper work".

If you look back to the late 60's and early 70's, there was some
concern by the government regarding violence on television.
During that time period the government did, indeed, threaten
networks with non-renewal or delayed renewal of their
affiliates' licenses unless they got their act together. It
worked like a charm. Ever notice the number of times that
"Mannix" got hit over the back of the head instead of engaging
in a protracted fight? <G>

As I've stated before, the problem isn't what we can prove via
public records, it's what the government does that can't be
traced that is the real threat.

Take care,

Roger Evans







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 19

                                  Doc Barry

From: Brian Douglas <bdouglas@spiderwebgroup.com>
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 08:09:00 -0700
Fwd Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 13:02:06 -0500
Subject: Doc Barry


One of the reasons I left the UFO field via the medium of the
Internet, more specifically, e-mail lists, was due to my extreme
distrust, disbelief, and general dislike of many of the people
involved in it. "Doc" was _not_ one of those people. He was one
of the few that I trusted, believed in, and held some faith in.
He believed in what he did, he believed in what he said, and he
was one of the most dedicated people you will ever have the
chance to communicate with.

The loss of "Doc" comes as a huge blow to all of us, and to this
field of study. His main purpose was not to become popular, not
to get his name on the books, and not to be looked up to by
anyone. He was always eye-level with everyone he spoke with.
To him, his work in this field was simply "what he did." He
expressed that to me many times over the past few years when I
would ask him why he did it. You simply will not find another
soul more dedicated to anything than "Doc" Barry was to all of
us and the the field of UFO study.

Wherever you are now, "Doc", we wish you all the happiness,
freedom, joys, and hopefully all the answers to those things you
tried so hard to get answers to here. Good luck Doc. We love
you, and we will miss you. I hope you finally found the truth
you have been so desperately seeking.

Brian






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 19

                    Re: 'Rods' - On The Learning Channel

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 10:30:55 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 13:05:08 -0500
Subject: Re: 'Rods' - On The Learning Channel


>From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
>Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 11:02:28 +0000
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: 'Rods' - On The Learning Channel


>>From: Jose Escamilla <rods@rmi.net>
>>Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 13:15:46 +0300
>>Fwd Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 15:57:23 -0500
>>Subject: 'Rods' - On The Learning Channel>

>Previously, Jose had written:

>>So, in our quest to further this investigation, Jim Peters, Ken
>>Swartz (a new associate and team member), set out to see "if in
>>fact" Rods or fast objects traveling distances from the camera
>>would create a "blur" because of the electronics involved in CCD
>>photography - or videography.

>>We videotaped an 16 1/2"arrow (bolt) using Jim's crossbow that
>>shoots these bolts at approximately 136 mph.

>>We used the Sony VX-1000 digital
>>camcorder that most of the current Rod shots have been captured
>>on in New Jersey, South Dakota and The cave in Mexico.

>>>We we found was that using the optical lens setting at 1/10,000
>>shutter setting, the bolt - or arrow, appears as it really is: a
>>16 1/2" arrow. And it appears in two to three frame of video
>>shot at 30fps.>

>>This revealed to us that using the Sony VX-1000 camcorder as has
>>been used in all the cave footage, what you see is what you get.>

>Hi Jose,

>To start with, I'm not at all up to date on the ROD issue, but I
>do know a thing or two about video. I can appreciate the test
>you were trying to create but there are a couple of things you
>really should consider:

>1) 1/10,000 of a second shutter is staggeringly fast. Therefore
>little, if any, blur should be expected of any object at that
>speed.

>6) If the arrow was traveling at 136 mph, I'm surprised it would
>show up at all on the video beyond one frame. If, on the other
>hand, you were looking at "fields" instead of "frames", then I
>might buy that. While there are 30 frames per second, there are
>actually 60 fields per second (2 fields per frame is the easiest
>way to remember it for future reference). Some VCRs allow for
>single field viewing; some single frame viewing; some both. You
>need to check your machine for the specifics.>

>Try taking these things into consideration and run another test



(CALCULATION BY BSM: Sounds like a good experiment.)

At 136 mph = 200 ft/sec in 1/30 sec it will go 200 x 1/30 = 6.67
ft. At 10 ft the angular shift in position (perpendicular to the
line of sight is assumed) 2 tan^-1[(6.67/2)/10] = 36 degrees.
If the camera field of view were 40 degrees there could be 1 or
two frames. (Note: I don't know what the field of view
left-to-right was.)  During the shutter time it would move 200 x
1/10000 = 2/100 = 0.02 ft = 0.24 inches. This is 0.015 of its
16.5" length... that is, a 1% smear of the length...hardly
noticeable. Not surprising it looks like what it is...a "bolt".
Even at 1/1000 the smear wouldn't be horrible (10% of the
length). He said he had poles 24 feet apart. Obviously at a 10
ft distance the poles wouldn't show in the field of view if the
camera were halfway between the poles and 10 ft from the ribbon.
At 100 ft, the angular spacing between poles is tan^-1(.24) = 13
degrees, which could have been within the field of view. At any
rate, between frames the bolt would go 6.67 ft which is an angle
of tan^-1(6.67/100) = 3.8 degrees at 100 ft distance.  Hence in
any reasonable (non-zoomed) field of view the bolt would appear
in several frames. For example, it could easily appear in 5
successive frames (19 degrees of angular distance) of the field
of vew were 30 degrees. Again, the smear of the bolt image would
be about 1% of its length at 1/10000 sec shutter speed.

Jose says his big test was to use the electronic zoom to zoom in
on the central section of a 6 ft long section of the ribbon
(marked by black lines?) from a distance of 100 ft. The angle
between the 6 ft marker was tan^-1(.06) = 3.4 degrees. His zoom
may have restricted the field of view even more. At any rate, he
would get the bolt in only 1 frame. His test showed overall
blur...perhaps not surprising. It should be compared with the
blur of the ribbon image. However, in any case, the motion smear
of the bolt was only about 1% of its length so any noticeable
blur was due to the camera/optical system and not the motion.







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 19

                              Re: Confirmation?

From: bruce maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 10:31:18 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 13:11:40 -0500
Subject: Re: Confirmation?


>Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 10:37:34 +1100
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>From: Mike Farrell <mikefarr@midcoast.com.au>
>Subject: Re: Confirmation?>

>>Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 00:09:31 -0500
>>From: bruce maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
>>Subject: CONFIRMATION?
>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>


>Hello Updates List,


>>In particular, it advertises the Aug. 6, 1997 Mexico City
>>video....  which I demonstrated, at the studio which produced
>>the NBC show, is a likely hoax (background imagery smeared by
>>hand motion; UFO image never smeared by hand motion). .

>To Bruce and others concerned with the validity of this Mexican
>Video;

>It's hard to argue with the analysis that qualified
>professionals like Bruce Maccabee and Jeff Sanio (MUFON) have
>>sit on the sidelines can only be grateful for their dedication,
ti>me and efforts to help clarify the Truth.>

>But at the same time, we see the videotaped interviews with
>eye-witnesses to this questionable event on Aug. 6, 1997, and we
>have to ask; How do we reconsile the witness testimony with the
>computer analysis?


Thank you for your comments on the Mexico City Aug 6 , 1997
video and he claim by me and Sainio and others that the video is
a hoax. As I pointed out in my MUFON paper a year ago, there
are also witnesses. The big question is, did the witnesses
actually see what is in the video? A major problem is that the
videographer is unknown, so far as I know. If said person came
forward, _maybe_ he could say something that would contradict
the evidence of several kinds which indicate a hoax (in
particular, the lack of image smear of the UFO image at times
when the building images are smeared by camera motion).

It seems barely possible that the videographer might have seen a
real UFO that wasseen by th others, but did _not_ videotape it.
But then decided to make an "illustration" of what he saw.

It has always been a mystery as to why something as bizarre as a
30 foot saucer could fly over a large area of the city at such a
low altitued and _not_ be reported by _anyone_  until after the
video was received (over a month later) by Maussan.


Until we get better evidence regarding the video .... one must
assume the video, at least, is a hoax and go on to other things.






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 19

                      Re: The Order Of the Solar Temple

From: Rob Irving <RobIrving@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 11:19:14 EST
Fwd Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 13:14:14 -0500
Subject: Re: The Order Of the Solar Temple


>From: Tim D. Brigham <devilsad@ksinc.net>
>To: <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: The Order Of the Solar Temple
>Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 17:46:51 -0600


>...phenomenon not unusual in the magical
>tradition--explained away the stage-managed apparitions...

<snip>

>The question remains: how/from who did they get equipment
>sophisticated enuff to pull this off?  Does anyone on the List
>have any insight into what specific sort of equipment may have
>been used, how it would be obtained, what it would cost, etc.

Tim,

In theory, a projector and a large sheet of glass are enough to
create 'ghosts' (or, I suppose, Masters). Shine the light on the
chosen figure, the unseen glass will angle the reflection giving
an impression of 'apparition'. According to my book on magic,
anyway. Apparently it went down a treat a hundred years ago.

Rob






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 19

                    -=[For The Record]=- Mantell - Redux

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 13:24:26 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 13:24:26 -0500
Subject: -=[For The Record]=- Mantell - Redux




Source: http://ufoinfo.com/roundup/v01/rnd01_02.shtml

UFO ROUNDUP
Volume 1, Number 2. February 26, 1996
Editor: Masinaigan
FREE


NEW INFORMATION IN THE 1948 MANTELL CASE

Last week's "Sightings" had an interview with former Army
sergeant Quinton A. Blackwell, who was in the tower at Godman
Field, Fort Knox, Kentucky the afternoon of January 7, 1948,
when Captain Thomas F. Mantell had his fatal encounter with a
UFO.

During his meeting with Capt. Mantell's two sons and sister,
Blackwell made a startling statement. He said that once Capt.
Mantell had the large metallic saucer in sight, the pilot
remarked, "We're going to need hot guns."

"Hot guns" is Air Force slang for aircraft weaponry loaded with
live ammunition. The five F-51 Mustang fighter planes were on a
routine ferry flight from Georgia to Godman Field that day and
were not armed with .50 caliber machine guns.

Right after Capt. Mantell said it, Lt. Clements flew his
Mustang, NG800, back to the field. Here it was loaded with
machine guns, hardball and tracer ammo and took off again at
3:30 p.m., hoping to rendezvous with Capt. Mantell and the UFO.
However, by the time Lt. Clements reached the town of Franklin,
Capt. Mantell's Mustang, NG869, had crashed.

There is no mention of "hot guns" in Sgt. Blackwell's original
January 7, 1948 report, which was included in Project Blue Book
and declassified in 1975.

Also Blackwell told Mantell's relatives that an unnamed
brigadier general was present in the tower during the pursuit of
the UFO. Possibly this was the commanding general (CG) at Fort
Knox.

For readers unfamiliar with the case, here is a chronology of
the events that day.

1:45 p.m. - The Kentucky State Police barracks at Elizabethtown
phones the M.P.s at Fort Knox, reporting the presence of the
UFO.

1:50 p.m. - Sgt. Blackwell and PFC Stanley Oliver spot the UFO
on the tower's radar set. Taking a pair of binoculars, Sgt.
Blackwell looks out the tower's south window. He sees a silvery
saucer with a small dome on top flying slowly past the airfield.

2:00 p.m. - Lt. Orner arrives at the tower, looks through the
binoculars, confirms the visual sightings of Blackwell and
Oliver, and gets on the hot phone.

2:20 p.m. - Capt. Gary W. Carter, operations officer, and
Colonel Guy F. Hix, commanding officer at Godman Field, arrive
at the tower and confirm the sighting.

2:30 p.m. - Unaware of what's going on at the field, Tommy
Mantell and his flight arrive over Fort Knox. Mantell asks for
permission to land. Col. Hix tells Sgt. Blackwell to send the
five-man flight after the UFO.

2:35 p.m. - Mantell begins his powered climb, heading southwest.
One man in the squadron complains, "Where are we off to now?"
Mantell replies, "New mission, gentlemen. Observation and
report. This won't take too long."

2:40 p.m. - Mantell reports visual sighting of the UFO. He
engages in a running dialogue with Blackwell back at the tower.

2:45 p.m. - Mantell reports, "It's ahead and above me...still
climbing."

(About this time "hot guns" were mentioned, and Lt. Clements
turned back to Godman Field.)

3:00 p.m. - The flight reaches 15,000 feet. Lacking oxygen
equipment, Lt. Hendricks in NG336 and Lt. Hammond in NG737 break
off pursuit. Describing the UFO, Mantell says, "It appears
metallic and of tremendous size."

3:15 p.m. - Mantell says, "It's still climbing...object is above
and ahead about my speed (345 mph) or faster...I'm trying to
close in for a better look."

3:20 p.m. - The two planes reach 20,000 feet. Mantell's wingman
breaks off the pursuit. The UFO is heading for the Tennessee
state line. Still in hot pursuit, Mantell radios the tower..."it
appears like the reflection of sunlight on a canopy."

3:30 p.m. - Godman Field tower loses radio contact with NG869.

3:35 p.m. - While waiting for her school bus, Barbara Mayes, age
9, a student at Franklin Grade School, sees a "bright explosion"
in the sky.

3:45 p.m. - Mrs. Philips hears the crash at her home on the farm
of Joseph Philips in Franklin. Mantell's plane crashed in a
field 200 yards from the house.

3:50 p.m. - Eyewitness Addie Wilson saw the UFO leaving the
area. "It seemed to be at a high altitude and having an
aluminum-like surface. It didn't look like any balloon I've ever
seen."

Now that Sgt. Blackwell has come forward, let's use the Freedom
of Information Act to declassify Colonel Guy F. Hix's report to
the commanding general at Fort Knox and the general's report to
the Air Defense Command at Mitchell Field, Hempstead, Long
Island, N.Y. We want full disclosure in the Mantell case.

[End of Article]







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 19

                       Re: The State of Ufology Today

From: Real Arsenault <aviano291@hotmail.com>
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 09:27:00 PST
Fwd Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 13:19:01 -0500
Subject: Re: The State of Ufology Today


>Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 01:37:06 -0800
>From: Josh Goldstein <clearlt@pacbell.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: The State of Ufology Today

>>Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 20:15:06 -0500
>>From: Gary Alevy <galevy@pipeline.com>
>>To: UFO UpDate <updates@globalserve.net>
>>Subject: The State of Ufology Today

>>>From: George Filer <Majorstar@AOL.COM>
>>>Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 19:08:34 EST
>>>Fwd Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 22:32:20 -0500
>>>Subject: Filer's Files 99-#1 MUFON Skywatch Investigations

>>>Filer's Files #1-1999,  MUFON Skywatch Investigations
>>>George A. Filer,  MUFON Eastern Director,  Happy New Year
>>>January  8, 1998,   Majorstar@aol.com  (609) 654-0020


>These are selected snips from your post that I think illustrate
>your caustic and hostile attitude toward Jerry Clark, Richard
>Hall and MUFON investigators (like myself). I had to look at
>your displays of hostility even when other researchers were
>being civil to you and only asking you to prove what you were
>saying in your posts. Bruce Evans received the same treatment. I
>respect the work of the above people and despise seeing you
>resort to character assasination. I don't know what drives your
>cynicism and hatred. Perhaps a qualified therapist would be able
>to help you understand yourself and your obvious self hatred.

>Perhaps then you will drop your hateful attitude and actually
>begin to finally contribute something to this field. Judging by
>the work of Jerome Clark and Richard Hall you may after years be
>worthy of licking their boots.

>Gary, don't vent on me. I've seen more than enough of your
>ugliness in far too many posts. I will not stoop to respond to
>you.

Well said, Josh! It's about time someone stands up to him, and I
probably speak on behalf of many subscribers! Anyhow, doing an
investigator's job on a volunteery basis is quite a feat by
itself; I would like to know _what_ Gary has done for society,
if anything, besides 'pesting' other people's lives!

Cheers to you all,

R.V. Arsenault
www.trytel.com/~rvarsen






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 19

                      Re: Military Retirees and Secrecy

From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 12:28:24 EST
Fwd Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 13:22:01 -0500
Subject: Re: Military Retirees and Secrecy


>From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
>Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 09:22:08 EST
>Fwd Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 12:22:45 -0500
>Subject: Re: Military Retirees and Secrecy

>>From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
>>Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 10:29:20 EST
>>To: updates@globalserve.net
>>Subject: Re: Military Retirees and Secrecy

<snip>

>>Have there ever been any documented instances of such attempted
>>prior censorship involving any UFO sources? If followers of
>>this list could provide instances of such events, it would help
>>us move from hypothetical and theoretic discussions to fact.

>>Any known instances, ladies and gentlemen?

>Ed Ruppelt talked about his book being submitted to the Pentagon
>for review prior to publication.

>KRandle

Kevin: Thanks.

It also occurs to me that someplace I have seen that a copy of a
manuscript by Donald Menzel turned up in the Blue Book microfilm
files. I believe Menzel did work as a consultant to the project
from 1962 to 1970, and earlier, in 1952, briefed officers at the
Pentagon and with the project while on active duty with the
Naval Reserve (see his public comments about this in UFO's A
Scientific Debate, Carl Sagan and Thornton Page, eds, W.W.
Norton: New York, 1972, pp. 131, 137).

So, we have two examples of people associated with Blue Book who
voluntarily (as far as we know) submitted manuscripts for
review, one who was on active duty and the second a consultant.

Which raises another interesting point. Does anyone know if
Allen Hynek, Robert Friend (Lt. Col. USAF, Ret.) or Lt. Col.
Lawrence J. Tacker submitted any of their manuscripts for
review?

While answers to all of the above may be interesting, to get
back to my original question, are there any documented examples
of official censorship, attempted prior censorship or documented
acts of retribution against revealers of alleged official UFO
secrets?

Bob Young







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 19

                      Re: The Order Of the Solar Temple

From: Bruno Mancusi <Bruno.Mancusi@com.mcnet.ch>
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 19:56:25 +0100
Fwd Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 19:04:36 -0500
Subject: Re: The Order Of the Solar Temple


>From: Tim D. Brigham <devilsad@ksinc.net>
>To: <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: The Order Of the Solar Temple
>Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 17:46:51 -0600

<snip>

>The question remains: how/from who did they get equipment
>sophisticated enuff to pull this off?  Does anyone on the List
>have any insight into what specific sort of equipment may have
>been used, how it would be obtained, what it would cost, etc?

I have forwarded your message to Jean-Fran=E7ois Mayer, the Swiss
sects expert who worked with the police for the investigation on
this case. He responded that absolutely no such devices where
found. He think that simple tricks were used.

Regards
Bruno







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 19

                         RAMS - Cleanup The Corners

From: Robert A. M. Stephens <sti3818@montana.com>
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 11:54:20 +0000
Fwd Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 19:14:17 -0500
Subject: RAMS - Cleanup The Corners


Robert Collins wrote:

>Yep; Stephens is no fraud in my mind
>but likes to tease and brag about how
>Art Bell et al are so right about him:
>Sort- a- pulling their chains and he enjoys
>it...so let the show begin ...??

>Rmc

>Jeroen Wierda wrote:

>>Hehehe.... I really start to have some respect for R.A.M.S. by
>>now. He puts Art Bell, Hoagland and others in shorts. And they
>>don't like being exposed as entertainers, where they know that
>>95% of the "ufo-world" think that they are reliable sources of
>>information. I HOPE this Stephens character makes people
>>waking up to the scams, and see the theories and stories that
>>are sent out by the entertainers for what they really are:
>>That is entertainment.

>>Jeroen Wierda


-----------------------------------------------------------

To you, Jeroen, RMC and the rest,

You all get it. This is enlightening. The point was even if one
claimed he was a fraud others took it to task and found out it
was different and all was true. Thus, it makes sense if someone
like Bell asked a guest, "how many times did you have sex with
the alien," it then makes sense also to research this claim and
exchange out a little.

When Peter Gersten will 'quote me' in an interview, its wise to
get it all, and not take a claim of activation, or nebulous
number association, or any other claim, and then look a little
closer at it. This is fair. When Bell edits a guest without
recourse, it is best to find out what exactly went on for fact.

If Hoagland has stolen NASA pictures on his web site, and he
does, and claims they are 'Fireballs' over Turd Peak, when in
fact they are solid rocket motor trails complete with exhaust
plumes and the vehicles removed crudely from the original photo,
it stands to reason other photos on his site are Frauds too. And
then too, the claims associated are also Frauds.

Asked questions. If not, this 'field' of study will continue be
the 'giggle' factor for Everyman everywhere. I honestly do not
think any of you and the rest involved wish that. So, police
oneself.

Case in point: NASA and other 'guvmint' folks I've known for
over 25 years think I'm nuts for even getting involved with this
culture. I have been in it now for 100 days or so, other than a
few mails over the years when I would drop in to see what in the
world was happening, and have found many very serious and
genuinely warm people, which is contrary to my initial
assessment that I have written about just 2 months ago. I now
feel that many of these folks need a more serious voice and
support. In this, I find myself now defending elements of this
culture that I laughed at internally a short time ago. If
someone like me can be sucked into this field in seriousness,
and must defend himself to 'officials' about the lies and
delusions of people like Hoagland and others, then I think
others must feel the same.

Then speak out. It doesn't hurt.

They've done it to me, and I don't believe for one minute I've
offered anything to this field of study out of harm or malice. I
do not think correcting Gersten and his followers on SR-71 was a
bad thing, even when he still will not accept fact over his
selective pride. I don't think the shuttle, Norad, Norad/Fence,
the implants, the intruder assessment, the Montana UFO, and many
many others items I have offered to this culture was or has
been, to do harm to it. Why the attack on my person for this by
Bell-Hoagland-CAUS & Co. Bara and some others on the outer
fringe of reality for these things escapes me.

Another words, its okay for Hoagland to have lies and stolen
photos and claims that are simply false on his page, in public
writings, and on air exclusive to Art Bell's radio show. This is
totally acceptable. But if someone comes along and claims there
is 1.4 million implants worldwide since 1937 and give book
reference origins to the very first case reported in China, then
gee, lets attack this person until he is a 'Fraud'.

This is simply outside the pale of rationality and the big Triad
of UFO Entertainment can discredit me and others all they wish,
but it does not hide the fact they are ensconced in veritable
lies, trafficking such without a check or balance, hiding behind
the nebulous world of digital exchange on the internet. And
offering virtually nothing and this has been proven and is
claimed by me and now multitudes like the above letters and the
400 to 600 I'm getting again daily state or claim the same. They
are all very pissed and sometimes can't articulate it well, but
the point is there. If you're gonna do in a Stephens out of
hand, and his data turns out to be fact, then we better look
inward at the other, more questionable elements of our industry.

Good.

It is unacceptable for Art Bell, of all people, to openly make
fun in some veiled dark manner, someone like Dr. Richard Sauder,
which is approaching the absurd, is laughable, is the ilk of the
demented in true form. There is other 'Freak Shows' for Bell to
marry and court on the payroll of his show for entertainment.
But to then go so far as to suggest anything untoward the
professionalism of someone like Sauder is virtually insane.
Being, of course, absolutely objective.

And not one of these people referred above are 'professionals'
in anything. However, Jeff Rense, Dr. Bruce Cornet, Dr. Richard
Sauder, Dr. Joe Gill, Michael Theroux of Borderlands, Joe
Firmage, Hal Puthoff, David John Oates, and even Paul Dore who
isn't even in this culture, and still many others are
professionals in their fields. And they have spoken or offered
true, insightful, and granular, usable information for all of us
on various topics. Even Paul Dore, just in clearing his name,
has shown many true, fair, in depth background revelations on
those responsible for using his name that we could all implement
in our own quests for searching out all sorts of information.

I nor many many others beyond those already mentioned have done
any malice to anyone in this field. That should be remembered.
It wasn't I who attacked anyone's intimate service to the United
States. It wasn't I who cut off anyone after being invited to a
'debate' on a radio show.

But I can state, being absolutely objective, with absolute fact,
that there are those in this UFO culture who intentionally are
out to do great harm and issue great shards of disinformation
that is, and has, and will, only hurt this field of study
further. Why, I'm not certain.

And keep in mind, the people in question are the ones who are
true liars in every way. They have stolen and falsified photos
on their web sites, they will harbor and hide from the public a
man who told a professional researcher that our nation's capital
was going to thermonuclearize itself. They will hide a man who
has lied to NASA to where he longer is welcome on any NASA site
in the world. And the list goes on and on.

You are forwarned. And the very people who really count in this
industry, have done nothing untoward to anyone, and these are
the ones these charalatans of dark purpose will attack with true
dark malice, for absolutely no reason.

Think people. What in the world is the purpose of this
disinformation campaign by Bell-Hoagland-Gersten-Bara and that
whole ilk of the macabre'.

Wait till you see the 200 questions and just what Art Bell
didn't want you all to hear. Then, you, the public, can really
see just what disinformation and lies are all about. I have
received over 1230 mails as of this morning that DEMAND the
questions to be posted online publicly. Therefore, since Art
Bell weaseled out, protecting his little freak show from anyone
asking the 'Real Fraud' why he is a pathological liar of the
darkest form, I will then post those questions and answers by me
after a radio show wishes to field the questions to me and I
will asked and answer them each. Or, a radio host can asked them
and I'll answer them for Hoagland in absentia. Then they can be
posted for further study.

All things on balanace, that's fair.

Perhaps cleaning a little in these dark corners of the industry
is in order.

Just a thought.

Rational, good letters above. Thank you.


sincerely,

Robert A.M. Stephens
NASA Documentation Program
Stillwater Mills
Contractor-Aerospace
406-745-3818
sti3818@montana.com
http://198.116.116.10/gallery/arts/samples.html






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 19

                       Re: Military Retirees & Secrecy

From: Susan Watson <susanwatson@earthlink.net>
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 11:20:16 -0800
Fwd Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 19:33:47 -0500
Subject: Re: Military Retirees & Secrecy

[Non Subscriber Post]

I have been following the postings on this thread with great
interest as I am the daughter of the referred-to officer. My
brother and I did not know the specific details of our Dad's
duties when we were young, but as all children do we heard and
observed what transpired within our home. It was not until later
in our lives that we became fully aware of the depth of his
involvement.

I can see from the postings here that there needs to be some
clarification. My father is no coward. He put his life on the
line for this country more than once. He shed his blood during
war for this country. Eventually, he lost his wife and marriage
because his first sworn duty was to this country. Dad was not
present in our lives most of the time. He was away performing
his assigned duty. What was he doing? He was giving every ounce
of himself to help secure the safety of you and yours.

Last night I had a long talk with Dad. The issues raised on this
List woke my curiosity once again. As I got deeper into trying
to pick his brain for answers I felt a sense of shame. The
conclusion that I have arrived at is this:

Never once has my father swayed from his loyalty and commitment
to this country. There is honor in this man's heart. He holds to
his pledge in spite of the fact that he is grievously
disappointed in the direction of our nation. It would be
disrespectful for me to attempt any further extraction's of
information, I am closing the book. I can at least honor the
man....if not the country that created him.

Thank you all for your responses.
Susan Watson






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 19

                       Re: Military Retirees & Secrecy

From: Susan Watson <susanwatson@earthlink.net>
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 11:20:16 -0800
Fwd Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 19:33:47 -0500
Subject: Re: Military Retirees & Secrecy

[Non Subscriber Post]

I have been following the postings on this thread with great
interest as I am the daughter of the referred-to officer. My
brother and I did not know the specific details of our Dad's
duties when we were young, but as all children do we heard and
observed what transpired within our home. It was not until later
in our lives that we became fully aware of the depth of his
involvement.

I can see from the postings here that there needs to be some
clarification. My father is no coward. He put his life on the
line for this country more than once. He shed his blood during
war for this country. Eventually, he lost his wife and marriage
because his first sworn duty was to this country. Dad was not
present in our lives most of the time. He was away performing
his assigned duty. What was he doing? He was giving every ounce
of himself to help secure the safety of you and yours.

Last night I had a long talk with Dad. The issues raised on this
List woke my curiosity once again. As I got deeper into trying
to pick his brain for answers I felt a sense of shame. The
conclusion that I have arrived at is this:

Never once has my father swayed from his loyalty and commitment
to this country. There is honor in this man's heart. He holds to
his pledge in spite of the fact that he is grievously
disappointed in the direction of our nation. It would be
disrespectful for me to attempt any further extraction's of
information, I am closing the book. I can at least honor the
man....if not the country that created him.

Thank you all for your responses.
Susan Watson





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 20

                           MUFON - Not Playing Fai

From: Scott Carr <sardonica@erols.com>
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 14:06:29 -0800
Fwd Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 01:50:36 -0500
Subject: MUFON - Not Playing Fai


Dear List,

I was very pleased to have had the opportunity to publish my
recent article "The Rise and Fall of Pine Bush" in the November
edition of "The MUFON Journal." And I can honestly say they I
was surprised when the only negative response to the article was
to come from Ellen Crystall, author of "Silent Invasion." Her
lengthy response to my article was forwarded to me by MUFON's
new editor Dwight Connelly, offering me the chance to have my
reply to Crystall's issues appear beside hers in the "Reader's
Forum" of the January edition.

Unfortunately, after I had turned in my detailed and considerate
response to Crystall's claims regarding my article, Mr. Connelly
informed me that:

"As I went through all this material it became apparent that it
was going to evolve into a he said/she said commentary which had
prospects of dragging on for months without actually adding very
much to ufology-at least she would not add much. You had some
good ideas and thoughts concerning the need to know the
background of researchers, etc., but I didn't feel I could use
that without receiving some sort of reply from her. I apologize
for getting you involved in doing a lot of writing and then not
using it." (Dwight Connelly)

This would certainly be a reasonable and understandable position
for the editor to take, had he actually stuck by it. But
unfortunately he did not.

In the Reader's Forum of the January issue of The MUFON Journal
Ellen Crystall's letter (while still abridged) takes up an
entire half of the page. While my response is a RE-WORDED mere
two sentences- and more importantly is NOT WHAT I HAD WRITTEN AT
ALL!!!

This, in my opinion, is simply unacceptable and unethical
behavior on MUFON's part. As such, I have taken it upon myself
to reprint the ENTIRE correspondence between myself, Ellen
Crystall, and Dwight Connelly in Issue 14 of "The Flying Saucer
Gazette" (www.erols.com.sardonica/FSGFOURTEEN) as well as the
article in question, "The Rise and Fall of Pine Bush" at
(www.erols.com/sardonica/Rise/).

It is my sincere hope that the UFO community will not stand for
this sort of favoritism, editorial behavior, or altering of the
truth on the part of MUFON or any other UFO organization,
investigator, or witness. I am sorry to say, that in this case,
MUFON has done a great injustice to myself, to Dr. Ellen
Crystall, and to the UFO community. I hope that anyone who reads
the MUFON Journal, will also read the latest edition of FSG, so
they can know the truth, and the full story behind "The Rise and
Fall of Pine Bush."

Sincerely,

-Scott C. Carr

Editor, The Flying Saucer Gazette
http://www.erols.com/sardonica

Producer, "UFO Desk"
99.5 FM WBAI, NY





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 20

                      Re: Military Retirees and Secrecy

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 99 14:15:41 PST
Fwd Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 01:53:15 -0500
Subject: Re: Military Retirees and Secrecy


>From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
>Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 12:28:24 EST
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Military Retirees and Secrecy

>>From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
>>Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 09:22:08 EST
>>Fwd Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 12:22:45 -0500
>>Subject: Re: Military Retirees and Secrecy

>>>From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
>>>Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 10:29:20 EST
>>>To: updates@globalserve.net
>>>Subject: Re: Military Retirees and Secrecy


>It also occurs to me that someplace I have seen that a copy of a
>manuscript by Donald Menzel turned up in the Blue Book microfilm
>files. I believe Menzel did work as a consultant to the project
>from 1962 to 1970, and earlier, in 1952, briefed officers at the
>Pentagon and with the project while on active duty with the
>Naval Reserve (see his public comments about this in UFO's A
>Scientific Debate, Carl Sagan and Thornton Page, eds, W.W.
>Norton: New York, 1972, pp. 131, 137).

Bob,


In a private memo Ed Ruppelt wrote an amusing account of
Menzel's May 1952 Pentagon briefing, which Ruppelt attended
along with high-ranking officers in Air Force Intelligence and
AF scientist Stefan Possony.  See The UFO Encyclopedia, 2nd Ed.,
pp. 635-36, or The UFO Book, pp. 390-92, for the full story.

Jerry Clark







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 20

                         RAMS - Gersten To Stephens

From: Robert A. M. Stephens <sti3818@montana.com>
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 12:57:22 +0000
Fwd Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 02:12:49 -0500
Subject: RAMS - Gersten To Stephens


>Robert,

>Since you have decided to address an e-mail to me with a
>distribution list of about a dozen, I thought I would send you
>an open letter. Interesting who you seek attention from.

>I have no quarrel with you and am not sure why you continually
>refer to me, Hoagland and Bell in the same context. Are you
>trying to make a point? Is there something on the CAUS website
>you find intentionally false? Is there something that I have
>said about you not true? On the other hand, I would love to
>cross-examine you about everything you have stated in the
>past...on any radio show of at least one hour. Maybe we should
>find out if anyone still wants to listen to you 'debate' anyone
>about ten questions, let alone 200, afterwards.

>My main concern in calling you that night was to ask about
>NORAD/Fence...something that you had repeatedly stated that you
>had access to through your NASA affiliation. You refused to
>discuss the subject and told me that you no longer would provide
>any further information.

>I see that you have now resurfaced, after promising me that
>night that you no longer would having any involvement with
>anyone associated with the UFO phenomenon. I guess your word is
>as good as your ability to tell truth.

>You and I both know what we talked about for over 60 minutes
>that night. You admitted that you lied about several things.
>Though you never admitted it, I now believe you lied about your
>access to classified NORAD/Fence records. I also believe you
>fabricated the information pertaining to NORAD's identification
>of both the Montana and Phoenix UFOs.

>Though I have seen Michael Theroux's website concerning a radar
>system possibly similar to what you were describing, I have
>little doubt that you knew about that website before Michael
>posted it, and probably modeled your answers to CAUS based upon
>it. IMHO you have no access to any military security system,
>let alone classified information.

>The information you supplied CAUS was obtained from information
>in the public domain and not beCAUS of any 'inside' information.

>It appears that you are not presently employed and spend most of
>the day surfing military related websites for information that
>you then tell everyone was learned from your contacts.

>And what is the reason you have resurfaced? To assist the UFO
>field in learning the truth? Or maybe to provide CAUS with a
>weekly report of the 100-220 intruders a day that you have
>stated are entering our airspace. Or maybe help explain why we
>are experiencing a sudden increase in meteor/fireball activity
>throughout the planet. Or maybe to help CAUS determine what
>these triangular UFOs are? For some reason...I don't think so!

>You have resurfaced to show us the negative side of
>ourselves....the attacking, profane and disrespectful side. The
>shadow side that seeks attention by defaming others rather than
>anything constructive of our own. The part that believes it
>needs to lie about itself in a vain attempt to acquire some
>false self-esteem and importance.

>You have been shown to be a liar. You have admitted to being a
>fraud. Your 'confession' was also self-serving since I informed
>you that I would be posting the contents of our interview in
>that night's CAUSupdate. To lessen the effect, you gratuitously
>posted your 'confession' in an attempt to ridicule it. You no
>longer have any credibility.

>If you have a personal problem with Richard Hoagland or his
>work, take it up with Richard. He has a fax number. If he
>ignores your correspondence, that is his choice. I, and
>hopefully most other People, are fully capable of judging
>Richard on the merits of his past and present work and
>statements. When were you elected 'prosecutor?' I suggest you
>find a more productive way of getting attention.

>Peter A. Gersten


-----------------------------------------------------

Dear Peter,

Do to the rest as you have done with me. That is fair. And that
is the point.

Please click on the link below. I had my work in the Smithsonian
at age 30. I do not need further 'attention' or I sure as heck
wouldn't be living in St. Ignatius Montana, pop:439, in the
middle of America's last buffalo commons, on the Salish-Kootenai
Indian Reservation, in a place the size of New Jersey and
Maryland combined with a population of 7700 people.


Do to the rest as you have done with me. That is fair.


sincerely,

Robert A.M. Stephens
NASA Documentation Program
Stillwater Mills
Contractor-Aerospace
406-745-3818
sti3818@montana.com
http://198.116.116.10/gallery/arts/samples.html






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 20

                   Re: And The Truth Shall Set Its Fee...

From: Donnie W. Shevlin <dshevlin@primary.net>
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 13:43:35 -0600
Fwd Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 02:00:30 -0500
Subject: Re: And The Truth Shall Set Its Fee...



>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
>Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 03:18:43 EST
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: And The Truth Shall Set Its Fee...

>Dear Errol, Skeptics, Believers and Faith Healers...

>Allow me, alas a mere mortal, an opportunity to evaluate your
>performance, as a group. Of course, I refer _ONLY_ to those few
>of you who are the culpably ignorant. You know who you are.

<snip>

>The moral?

>You, you who speak truth, I worship you.  You, who speak your
>truth, I admonish with this caveat.  Your truth may be a lie.
>And you must live with that.

>My truth is truth.  I can live with that.


I applaud you Jim. I sit here day after day and try and sort the
truth. It is a trying matter in itself. A need for profit
outwieghs the truth in much respect. At least that is what I
see. They're going for that golden ring that will establish a
name in Ufology.

Of course, about profit, how could one make a living if not on
the profession they choose. Starving artist are just that,
starving. So Ufologist have to make a living at what they do,
it's just that they should take pride in the truth of the work
that they have done. Not to create tainted truth to turn a
dollar. Or all their real work, true or untrue, will disassemble
before their eyes.

My grandfather would say, 'A hundred ah rights is all lost in
the one oh shit.'.


Donnie







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 20

                      Re: UK UFO Conference - Southport

From: Mike Wootten <ej77@dial.pipex.com>
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 20:03:23 GMT
Fwd Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 02:15:36 -0500
Subject: Re: UK UFO Conference - Southport



Lancashire Ufo Society And The Independent Ufo Network Present

Countdown To The Millenium!

Ufology In The Twenty First Century - A Conference To Launch The
Independent UFO NetworK!

Featuring

JENNY RANDLES - Britain's best-known researcher and author on
UFOs and the paranormal presents an intriguing lecture: "The
Peter Day 'UFO film' - an in-depth investigation."

DR. DAVID CLARKE - award-winning journalist, researcher and
co-author of the acclaimed "Phantoms of the Sky". His stunning
new audio-visual presentation focuses upon the 1997 'Sheffield
Crash Retrieval Incident'.

JERRY ANDERSON - Popular UFO researcher from Kent. Jerry will
present new evidence for UFO reality by introducing quite
remarkable new cases from the South East AND footage of a large
UFO hovering over Kent. An expert said of the film; "this is the
best UFO footage I've ever seen".

JAMES DISS - UFO Outsider, skeptic and general bad egg. James'
lecture; "How to fake UFO photographs and footage!"=85..

ANDY ROBERTS - "The Armchair Ufologist". Noted for his
controversial column in Fortean Times magazine Andy is the
editor of the re-born IUN journal UFO Brigantia. His lecture
focuses upon the Berwyn Mountains UFO case. It will be followed
by a discussion of the issues surrounding the case featuring
both Andy and Jenny Randles.

Andy will also be talking about new developments with the
Independent UFO Network. The IUN is to play an important part in
this ground-breaking event and will undoubtedly become THE force
in British Ufology as we countdown to the Millennium!

Each lecture is to be supported by big screen overhead, video
and slide projection. A wide range of snacks and refreshments
will be available at low prices in the purpose built hall hired
for the occasion. Central location, plenty of parking nearby,
just a short walk from the station.

This is a joint LUFOS/IUN event to be held on Saturday 27th
February 1999 starting at 11am, finishing around 8pm. Tickets
for this event cost just =A37 (=A35 members) and are available NOW
from; (Cheques/postal orders to 'Lancashire UFO Society' please)

Lancashire UFO Society, P.O.Box 15, Southport PR8 1GR.

Venue; Holy Trinity Hall, Hoghton Street, Southport.

Tel; (01995) 600186 (Brenda) and (01704) 501765 (Lynda).






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 20

                              'Mail On Sunday'

From: Philip Mantle <el51@dial.pipex.com>
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 04:48:39 +0000
Fwd Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 02:21:49 -0500
Subject: 'Mail On Sunday'


Dear all,

Does anyone have a spare copy of the 'tent footage' expose in
last weeks Mail On Sunday. Unfortunately my copy was mistakenly
dumped in the rubbish bin.

If anyone does have a copy that they don't want I'd appreciate
it if they could send it to me at:

Philip Mantle,
1 Woodhall Drive,
Batley,
West Yorkshire,
WF17 7SW.

Many thanks,

Philip.





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 20

                       Re: R.A.M.S. - A Parting Shot?

From: Robert A. M. Stephens <sti3818@montana.com>
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 17:32:35 +0000
Fwd Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 02:25:38 -0500
Subject: Re: R.A.M.S. - A Parting Shot?

>Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 08:17:09 -0600
>From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: R.A.M.S. - A Parting Shot?


<snip>

>Perhaps (?) -- but I would find your arguments more compellingly
>convincing if you would refrain from your encopric and
>unsettling digressions, for a moment, and answer those questions
>a few of us had regarding STS-48. <g>.


--------------------------

I did.

On four radio shows and in 9 email posts-detailed dissertations.
STS-48,  STS-80,  = frozen ejecta from on orbit vehicles.

sincerely,

Robert  A.M. Stephens
NASA Documentation Program
Stillwater Mills
Contractor-Aerospace
406-745-3818
sti3818@montana.com
http://198.116.116.10/gallery/arts/samples.html






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 20

                    Re: 'Rods' - On The Learning Channel

From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 15:52:32 +0000
Fwd Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 02:29:26 -0500
Subject: Re: 'Rods' - On The Learning Channel


>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
>Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 10:30:55 -0500
>Fwd Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 13:05:08 -0500
>Subject: Re: 'Rods' - On The Learning Channel

>>From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
>>Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 11:02:28 +0000
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>Subject: 'Rods' - On The Learning Channel

>>>From: Jose Escamilla <rods@rmi.net>
>>>Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 13:15:46 +0300
>>>Fwd Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 15:57:23 -0500
>>>Subject: 'Rods' - On The Learning Channel>

Previously, Bruce wrote:

<snip of incredible, mind-numbing data>

>Jose says his big test was to use the electronic zoom to zoom in
>on the central section of a 6 ft long section of the ribbon
>(marked by black lines?) from a distance of 100 ft. The angle
>between the 6 ft marker was tan^-1(.06) = 3.4 degrees. His zoom
>may have restricted the field of view even more. At any rate, he
>would get the bolt in only 1 frame.

Hey! I guessed right!<g>

>His test showed overall
>blur...perhaps not surprising. It should be compared with the
>blur of the ribbon image. However, in any case, the motion smear
>of the bolt was only about 1% of its length so any noticeable
>blur was due to the camera/optical system and not the motion.

Hi Bruce,

I could be wrong, but I think Jose implied that he was using the
digital (as opposed to optical) zoom for maximum magnification.
Would such "false" enhancement of the image size affect your
calculations?

Just curious....

Take care,

Roger Evans





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 20

                       Re: R.A.M.S. - A Parting Shot?

From: Robert A. M. Stephens <sti3818@montana.com>
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 17:42:03 +0000
Fwd Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 02:39:21 -0500
Subject: Re: R.A.M.S. - A Parting Shot?


>Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 01:20:11 -0800
>From: Josh Goldstein <clearlt@pacbell.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: R.A.M.S. - A Parting Shot?

>What is your real motivation for your proposed debate with
>Mr.Hoagland? Anyone who studies Ufology and can think for
>himself already is well aware of Mr."Mars face" Hoagland's self
>delusions. Any regular listeners of Art Bell who still believe
>anything Hoagland says have their own sets of problems. I don't
>think anyone can illuminate their dimness. Are you trying to
>prop up your wounded ego vs. Art Bell?

No. I don't care about ego and Bell and me. Many are now
thinking as you do, and thus, it probably isn't needed to
debate anything. The point is there is a few, Hoagland, being
one, that is or is not crazy but the he does write the
Whitehouse, NSA, DoD, NASA, etc, and make claims that we
killing 30,000 children on Long Island, that NASA is a pack of
liars, etc. I take issue with this. NASA can't attack back.
I can. The loudest voice of 'strange' must then be silenced
with truth.

If not, you, I and everyone in this field is lumped into the
same basket and thus, non-disclosure will continue. This must
be stopped. I have found in the 100 day voyage in this culture,
there is a lot of very serious and sincere people. My only
fault of them is that they are little too quiet when wronged or
snowballed.. You, obviously, are not. Good.

>In a recent post announcing your resurrection you claimed that
>many people have posted you with links, etc. that support the
>truth of your claims. What I would rather see you do is to post
>on this list the truth behind your UFO related claims and the
>sources of that truth so they may be verified in a forum of
>bonafide researchers. I don't want to sound crude but perhaps
>you are familiar with the phrase 'put-up or shut-up'? So how
>about putting-up so you can gain some credibility? That would
>serve your credibility more than a debate with people like
>Hoagland.

Please be more specific. I do not understand this last
paragraph. I believe I have, in great measure, put up. More
than most herein.

sincerely,

Robert>A.M. Stephens
NASA Documentation Program
Stillwater Mills
Contractor-Aerospace
406-745-3818
sti3818@montana.com
http://198.116.116.10/gallery/arts/samples.html







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 20

                            Guilt By Association?

From: Sean Jones <seanj@tedric.demon.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 20:13:58 +0000
Fwd Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 02:41:39 -0500
Subject: Guilt By Association?


Hi Errol, Hi All, esp Bob Shell <G>

With the "Tent Footage" fully debunked by Tim and Phil, the
Alien Autopsy must also be fake/hoaxed/bogus purely because it
came from the same mill does it not?

NO!

This is guilt by association. Many people on this list have
criticised Gary Alevy specifically for this "crime".

As far as I know, ( I will stand corrected if someone can show
me the evidence) the actual Alien Autopsy film has stood up to
all the scrutiny but due to the extremely dubious way it was
made public was immediately frowned upon by many big names in
Ufology (capital U?). So straight away the smoking gun was cast
into shadow.

I often wonder how many people consider the AA to be genuine but
are afraid to say so for fear of ridicule? After all it is easy
to mock than support is it not?

Is it not possible that the AA _is_ a genuine artefact but it
was deliberately released in such a manor as to cause conflict
within the ranks? I was once told by a certain person a few
years back that the people who orchestrated the release hold
critical information that used properly could prove _or_
disprove the AA as genuine.

I wonder is it time to take a vote people? All those who believe
the AA genuine hold your hands up, OK now all you who think its
fake hold your hands up.

---
    In an infinite universe infinitely anything is possible.
                       Sean Jones
 Homepage--http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Zone/1745/index.htm
            UFO page--http://www.tedric.demon.co.uk/







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 20

               Re: Truth Detracting Elements of the Abduction

From: Ed Stewart <ufoindex@jps.net>
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 12:26:35 -0800
Fwd Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 02:47:46 -0500
Subject: Re: Truth Detracting Elements of the Abduction


>Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 06:56:47 -0800
>From: Steve Jones <svjones@jps.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: Truth Detracting Elements of the Abduction Phenomena

>Ed Stewart has made some comments as to my character that I
>would like to address.

Your address of my comments is being forwarded to Joe Ball.  I
am sure he will love to read your comments. After all, at one
time he was one of your best friends and a support of all the
crap and all the chips on your shoulders that you carry with you
in your "investigations" of UFOs.


>2.  The comments that Ed has made about my plotting with Richard
>Boylan to invade his privacy are patently false and he knows it.

Unfortunately for you, not only were you and Boylan overheard by
a then Boylan abductee (this was held at one of Boylan's get
togethers at his own home) from who I first heard about their
trash hunting endeavors, but the third individual in the "plot",
Clark Hathaway (who posts to this list and who has disassociated
himself from both Boylan and Jones) has since confirmed it. And
you yourself admitted it to me in front of witnesses at Robert
Mitchum's gettogether in Concord, Ca. Did you forget about that?
Apparently so!

>At Rich's trial, Ed was in the front row.

You got that right. I was there with Clark Hathaway during the
closing argument session. We both wanted to insure that what
transgressed in the courtroom was reported later accurately,
which we both did much to the chagrin of Boylan supporters!

As for McClellan AFB, it is surrounded on all four sides by
residential housing. It is completely bounded with no room to
grow or add any flying assignments (i.e. a larger or parallel
runway). As a matter of fact, it is being closed do to its lack
of future utility.

>as the BBS was a pain and I only put it up as an alternative to
>Ed's.

Why? There already was an alternative in place. You know, the
one you got your feed from. (GRIN) This is so hilarious. The
reason I accepted the BBS was that the previous owner did not
want Steve Jones to get it. Clark Hathaway, Jones close ex-buddy
for twenty years or so, has a lot to say on this. I ended up
providing Clark a link to his own BBS since Steve Jones shut him
out as he did everybody else and it became a private BBS only
for the benefit of Steve Jones alone.

>Shortly thereafter, Ed took over the moderatorship of
>the group and it is my understanding that large numbers of the
>group went elsewhere to talk. Many went with Maylone.

First of all SUFOG never had moderators, or group leaders.
Second of all Maylone never left.  You were the only one that
wasn't welcomed, not because of any official part of SUFOG, but
because everybody that went to SUFOG and ate pizza (the real
reason for the gettogethers) knew you for what you were: a
lying, sniffling, back-stabber, egotistical piece of crap! When
the local MUFON group, which we all supported except you, picked
up steam and became vibrant, SUFOG no longer had a purpose.

>As for Richard Miller, I personally like the man. He is a very
>personable person, just like Richard Boylan. From my background
>in the social sciences and my over 20 years in customer
>relations, I have learned to be pretty tolerant of people's
>views. I do have an aversion to belligerence and that is were Ed
>and I ultimately parted ways.

We parted our ways because you are at best, a disease, and at
worst, a predator.

>6. Regarding Ed's comments on my allegedly advocating hypnotic
>regression to anyone, this too is patently false.

I have a copy of every video you gave Chris for processing -
every last one of them including the one you leading a large,
somewhat obsese, subject.

>As for video tapes from Chris Stratton,
>the only ones that I am aware of are the ones that he digitally
>enhanced from the couple down in Calaveras. There are no videos
>of me attempting to direct anyone. I have taken people on
>"sightseeing tours" much like the one's that I took Mike
>Christol on up to Bowman Lake (where Sean Michael Morton has
>experienced sightings just prior to his attending the 1991 Las
>Vegas Conference) and down to Calaveras, which has a history of
>sightings (some of which have been shown on local television
>news shows). You comments on the "shyness" of the UFO's is
>laughable. I have never said any such thing. I simply told
>people of the history of the area and if they wanted to go, I
>either told them how to get there, or took them myself. I have
>alsways enjoyed "outtings" and we had lots of fun doing these,
>as Mike will atest to. Simply good times with good friends.

Interesting, all I know from the "outing" is what Michael
Christol told me at the North Carolina MUFON conferance.  Work
out your interpretation with him.

>7. As for the close friends issue, you are really way off the
>mark here. My close circle of friends is still intact.

I see, Chris, Mike, Joe, myself, all the SUFOG regulars and the
co-founder (you know, the guy that handed me the BBS instead of
giving it to you) and let's not forget Clark Hathaway who you
called a brother for over twenty years, all of them won't have
anything to do with you. Why? Because you are a disease at best
and a predator at worst.

>In fact,
>I have made numerous new ones.

I am sure you have.  But around here, people will know what to
expect from Steve Jones and it isn't the luminary "psychlogist
and folklorist" with over thirty years experience that you tried
to project yourself as in your original post. Here, I will make
sure your reputation will precede you.

>In closing, the good people of this List do not desearve this
>kind of dialog.

That is right. They don't deserve to be taken in by Steve Jones
and his ilk, a disease and a predator!

>This is what ultimately denigrated the FIDO echos.

If Don Allen is still around, he won't let that go unanswered.

>Far beyond good
>people like Corso, Michael Wolf, and others who have had the
>guts to come out and discuss this, there are hundreds of others
>who talk privately about it.

Let see, we now have Boylan, Sean Morton, Richard Miller, Vogel,
Corso and Michael Wolf among your identified heroes. I thing
that identifies more than anything else where the real Steve
Jones is coming from.

>Oassionally one comes across one
>of these special people. Even though they often only speak of
>it in guarded terms, the occassionally provide key pieces to
>this most illusive puzzle. It is a simple method, and it works.
>The puzzle has, over the years, become much more clear.

There you go, Steve Jones is closer to the truth than most.  It
works for him. Caveot emptor!

Ed Stewart

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ed Stewart ufoindex@jps.net|So Man, who here seems principal alone,
There Is Something         |Perhaps acts second to some sphere unknown.
   Going On!       ,>'?'<, |Touches some wheel, or verges to some goal,
Salvador Freixedo  ( O O ) |'Tis but a part we see, and not a whole.
---------------ooOO-(_)-OOoo------- Alexander Pope, Essay on Man -------






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 20

                   Re: And The Truth Shall Set Its Fee...

From: Sean Jones <seanj@tedric.demon.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 20:44:35 +0000
Fwd Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 03:04:54 -0500
Subject: Re: And The Truth Shall Set Its Fee...


>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
>Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 03:18:43 EST
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: And The Truth Shall Set Its Fee...
>
>
>Dear Errol, Skeptics, Believers and Faith Healers...

>Allow me, alas a mere mortal,
>My truth is truth.  I can live with that.


Jim, I mean no disrespect whatsoever but.

In human terms the truth is often a matter of perspective and
interpretation, of this I have no doubt.

I can cite one example that all should be able to relate to:
There is a car accident involving two cars, one car driver is
driving fast, the other pulls out of the junction in front of
the first car. Who is at fault? The fast car driver or the
driver who pulled out in front of him? The truth is both, but
will either see it that way? They both have their own
perspective on the "truth".

I believe in God and Jesus but I am not in the slightest
religious, in fact I abhor religion for all the strife it has
caused and still causes, so this to me is the _truth_ beyond
human truth's.

I really do wish we knew the answers to the question that people
like you raise with your experiences, I really do, but with your
experience you can see only _your_ truth.


Said with no insult, slur or whatever against you or _any_
abductee Jim.

---
    In an infinite universe infinitely anything is possible.
                       Sean Jones
 Homepage--http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Zone/1745/index.htm
            UFO page--http://www.tedric.demon.co.uk/






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 20

                           Re: UFO Communication?

From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net>
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 13:37:11 -0800
Fwd Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 03:10:51 -0500
Subject: Re: UFO Communication?


>Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 00:57:41 -0800
>From: Josh Goldstein <clearlt@pacbell.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: UFO Communication?

>Fellow UpDates subscribers,

>All the past discussion of SETI and alien communication has
>brought me to pose a question. How do UFOs communicate?

Dear Josh:

That is a highly interesting question, one I have pondered for
a long time.

Long before we used electricity to power trolley cars and light
our homes, it was used for telegraphy .. as far back as the
Civil War I believe. Radio was used for the same purpose
long before it found applications in radar, medicine, welding etc.
.

Here come UFOs, with unknown power sources and means
of propulsion far in advance of our present science and technology.
Suppose they are indeed able to manipulate gravity .. perhaps
creating artificial gravity waves. What a neat way to send
messages! That's only one possibility.

I might assume that the same and similar technologies would be
used for clear efficient and ( in our case ) completely inaccessible

communications channels, between craft, bases and "repeaters"
should they be needed.

This does not preclude the use of "older" technology ( radio,
microwave, lasers .. ) if and when they are more appropriate;
but I suggest that they would not rely on these media .. if only
to prevent us from listening in.

"Telepathy", at least in the ESP sense does not appeal to me
for these purposes. The human brain simply doesn't have the
power ( watts ) the frequency nor the proper antennas.


>With the long history of UFO reports, from discs to triangles,
>how do you suppose they communicate ship to ship or ship to
>base? Abductees report personal telepathic messages. Is it
>assumed that UFO occupants also communicate telepathically
>between ships? If they communicate using the electromagnetic
>spectrum why can't that be detected and perhaps interpreted?
>What other forms of communication may they use? What do you
>postulate?

>If the flying triangles are terrestrial in origin I assume we
>would be able to detect many scrambled radio messages.

>Why don't we?  [ Josh ]

That's another interesting line of inquiry. If the FTs are some
advanced military technology, they should at least send out
conventional signals which should be detectable, if not
readable.

Best wishes

- Larry Hatch








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 20

                         RAMS - Stephens To Gersten

From: Robert A. M. Stephens <sti3818@montana.com>
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 21:39:36 +0000
Fwd Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 03:51:05 -0500
Subject: RAMS - Stephens To Gersten


UFOLAWYER1@aol.com wrote:

>In a message dated 1/19/99 12:52:09 PM Mountain Standard Time,
>sti3818@montana.com writes:

>>I do not need further 'attention'  or I sure as heck wouldn't
>>be living in St. Ignatius Montana,  pop:439,  in the middle of
>>America's last buffalo commons,  on the Salish-Kootenai Indian
>>Reservation,  in a place the size of New Jersey and Maryland
>>combined with a population of 7700 people.

>>Robert,

>Your reality is your cyberworld and that is where you seek
>attention. It doesn't matter where you live.  But since you
>mentioned it, I believe you live in a small town beCAUS it
>affords you the safety of not dealing on a personal level with
>People. Why not come out into the daylight so we can see who
>you really are?

>'Do to the rest as you have done with me. That is fair.'  I
>agree, but unlike you I do not do it over the Internet.  I
>discuss my comments, questions, and recommendations with the
>person privately.  As I have stated before, I have no quarrel
with you or anyone else...unless I am attacked first. Everyone
>has a right to say and do, within certain restrictions, what
>they want.  You and everyone else have the same rights.

>Strangely you believe your rights include ridicule, lying and
>defamation. Thus I treat you accordingly.  When you act
>respectful, I will treat you with respect.  And lastly, I have
>done nothing to or with you.  You are a product of your own
>thoughts, words and deeds.

>Peter A. Gersten

-----------------------------------------

Dear Peter,

I don't know how to answer this above.  I live where I do by
choice.  I've had an awful of public life already.  Since
loosing Jennifer,  I like being here in my home place of Montana
for awhile.  I love the cape and the center of things,  but I'm
a rural boy in my upbringing and it is where I am most
comfortable.  I do love people though.  Always have.  I don't
believe I have defamed anyone.

I believe my claims are true to the letter.  I have never been
disrespectful of you until the day you wrote me you were going
to sue me for bad mouthing Hoagland and his data.  I still will
badmouth Hoagland and his data.  Now,  there is a plethora of
folks who want his hide for real red raw anger.  I don't.  I
just want the same venue to attack his falsehoods as he attacks
by chosen discipline which happens to be aerospace and NASA.
That's fair.

For you.  You need to do with the lot as you have done with me.
--
sincerely,

Robert  A.M. Stephens
NASA Documentation Program
Stillwater Mills
Contractor-Aerospace
406-745-3818
sti3818@montana.com
http://198.116.116.10/gallery/arts/samples.html
--






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 20

                       Re: RAMS - Cleanup The Corners

From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 22:52:26 +0000
Fwd Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 04:02:41 -0500
Subject: Re: RAMS - Cleanup The Corners


>From: Robert A. M. Stephens <sti3818@montana.com>
>Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 11:54:20 +0000
>Fwd Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 19:14:17 -0500
>Subject: RAMS - Cleanup The Corners

Previously, Stephens wrote:

<snip>

>This is simply outside the pale of rationality and the big Triad
>of UFO Entertainment can discredit me and others all they wish,
>but it does not hide the fact they are ensconced in veritable
>lies, trafficking such without a check or balance, hiding behind
>the nebulous world of digital exchange on the internet. And
>offering virtually nothing and this has been proven and is
>claimed by me and now multitudes like the above letters and the
>400 to 600 I'm getting again daily state or claim the same.

Mr. Stephens,

Don't you think this charade has gone on long enough?

Your lack of familiarity with celestial mechanics was bad
enough, but simple math dictates that 600 messages a day would
add up to 4,200 messages a week. Even if you limited yourself to
only one minute per message, it would require 70 hours a week to
read them all.

Don't you have a job? Or can you really afford to spend 10 hours
a day, 7 days a week, reading your "fan mail"?

This is about the most stupid thing I've heard to date.

What is your problem, man? Can't you stop yourself from lying or
is it simply beyond your control? Get some professional help,
dude...

Later,

Roger Evans






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 20

                       UFO Ballot Initiative Petition

From: Mike Jamieson <MDJ50@webtv.net>
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 15:11:20 -0800 (PST)
Fwd Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 04:18:24 -0500
Subject: UFO Ballot Initiative Petition


A petition encouraging Congressional hearings on the UFO
question can be signed at www.e-thepeople.com

The petition is a draft proposal for state ballot initiatives.
(This type of initiative is allowed in 20 or so states.)

The petition can be found at either the elections or other
category.

Larry Bryant explains the purpose and history of this petition
in the comments section.

Thankyou for signing.


---------------------

[Included by ebk - The site is a cookie-monster]

http://www.e-thepeople.com/etp/affiliates/national/fullview.cfm?ETPID=0&PETID=95
153&ETPDIR=affiliates/national

Petition Recepients: Betsy Bayless - Secretary Of State


Region of Applicability: United States


Signatures: 6


Petition Author: Larry W. Bryant of Alexandria, VA


Recent Signatures:

Henry Lampert, Jr. of Baytown, TX
Katharina Wilson of Portland, OR
Fox Mulder of Washington, DC
Matt Cameron of Vancouver, WA
John White of Cheshire, CT
Mike Jamieson of Napa, CA

Proposed Ufo Ballot Initiative:
We, the voting citizens of the state of Arizona [and,
eventually, of other similarly empowered states], do hereby
direct this state's legislature to issue, forthwith in its
customary manner, an OFFICIAL PROCLAMATION, the wording of which
shall be: "It is hereby proclaimed that the year 2000 be
observed as the Year of UFO Awareness. Because of the federal
government's failure to be officially forthcoming about
Unidentified Flying Objects, the public remains ill-informed and
confused on a matter of potentially great consequence. We
therefore urge the U.S. Congress to expeditiously convene open,
comprehensive hearings in which government personnel (military,
civilian-contract, and agency employees -- active and retired)
are permitted to present sworn testimony regarding their
personal knowledge of any UFO-related evidence, to be given
under immunity by waiver of any applicable security oath or
agreement of nondisclosure. This proclamation acknowledges the
following facts: (1) The weight of the cumulative evidence --
e.g., eyewitness, electronic-detection, photographic,
documentary -- overwhelmingly supports the conclusion of a
majority of Americans that some of the reported UFOs represent
somebody else's spacecraft; (2) the federal government's
handling of the UFO issue has contributed to the public cynicism
toward, and general mistrust of, government -- a development
injurious to our republic; (3) This initial year of the third
millennium affords us a renewed opportunity to explore, assess,
and convey every facet of UFO reality." For more information
please look at CAUS - Citizens Against UFO Secrecy - home page


Please give us your name and address, to give the officials you
are petitioning a chance to respond. (None of the information
you enter below will be released to anyone but your petition's
recipients.)

Name:

Email:

Address:

City:

State:
ZIP Code:




How important is this
issue to the way you will
vote in the next election?


Your Age*

Your Gender*


Are you a registered
voter?*

yes     no      unspecified


*Demographic information is optional and asked only because many
officials have told us that it can help them serve you better.
E- The People will not release this information to anyone but
the final recipients of your petition. For more information,
please read our privacy policies.








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 20

                           Re: UFO Communication?

From: Mark Cashman <mcashman@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 20:09:34 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 04:27:47 -0500
Subject: Re: UFO Communication?

>Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 00:57:41 -0800
>From: Josh Goldstein <clearlt@pacbell.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: UFO Communication?

>All the past discussion of SETI and alien communication has
>brought me to pose a question. How do UFOs communicate?

>If they communicate using the electromagnetic
>spectrum why can't that be detected and perhaps interpreted?

>If the flying triangles are terrestrial in origin I assume we
>would be able to detect many scrambled radio messages. Why don't
>we?

Josh -

Of course, all of the following represents nothing more than the
rankest speculation, but I think these are some of the
alternatives:

1) UFOs do not communicate with each other or with any bases.
Either there is a strict rule to preclude such communication or
there is no need for them to communicate (perhaps because they
are strictly independent).

2) UFOs use small UFOs (such as BOL (Balls of Light)) to
communicate, much like carrier pigeons.

3) UFOs use analog radio of low strength, transmit infrequently,
and rely on specific frequency schedules and burst transmissions
to avoid detection.

4) UFOs use digital radio of low strength and transmit digital
packets. Such packets are unlikely to be easily detected, and
since they are emitted from a very high speed airborne source,
they are typcially eliminated by ELINT (Electronic Intelligence)
systems as spurious, especially since to an unknowing observer,
their content makes them appear to be noise. Such packets could
contain encrypted linguistic content, video content of unknown
aspect ratio, or some other more exotic form of communication.

5) UFOs use lasers for point to point communications and do not
broadcast at all. Interception would require the interposition
of a receiver in the signal path, and the chances of this are
small.

6) UFOs use an exotic communications medium such as gravity or
quantum particles, or exploit some unknown principle of quantum
simultaneity to transmit information.

We know that UFOs emit radio signals, and that these signals are
sometimes noisy and sometimes actually have a form which is
similar to that of earthly transmissions. I refer you to the
article in Clark's UFO Encyclopedia, written by Sparks, on the
RB47 case for an example of this. For most detection of radio
frequency signals from UFOs, observers report that detection as
interference with existing radio equipment or as static. This
would suggest such radio emissions are broad in their frequency
profile. However, such observations also usually suggest a
limited range. Some researchers tend to interpret the
interference / noise output as emissions which are a side-effect
of the generation of luminosity by the UFO - a phenomenon which
suggests such mechanisms as X-ray or UV excitation of the
atmosphere, or the injection of electrons into the near surface
area of the UFO. Obviously, such mechanisms would tend to
suppress many frequencies of radio transmission and would tend
to devalue the use of radio frequencies for communication.

We also know that UFOs emit light rays, and sometimes these
connect one object to another. We also know that UFOs sometimes
use their external lighting for communication with witnesses,
and may appear to be using it for communication with another
object.

Some of the methods suggested above would remain undetectable by
current technologies, some would require a concerted effort by
an ELINT organization such as the NSA, and some have already
been reported. What to make out of all of this is uncertain.

If you are interested in cases of radio interference / signals,
I refer you to the on-line Project 1947 EM Effects catalog:

http://www.temporaldoorway.com/47emecat.htm


------
Mark Cashman, creator of The Temporal Doorway at
http://www.temporaldoorway.com
- Original digital art, writing, and more -
Author of SF novels available at...
http://www.temporaldoorway.com/library.htm
------







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 20

                  Green Fireball Streaks Over New Hampshire

From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@get2net.dk>
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 02:43:11 +0100 (MET)
Fwd Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 04:36:30 -0500
Subject: Green Fireball Streaks Over New Hampshire


Forwarded from "alt.ufo.reports".

Stig

***

From: ufoalarcon@webtv.net (Guillermo Alarcon)
Newsgroups: alt.ufo.reports
Subject: GREEN FIREBALL STREAKS OVER NEW HAMPSHIRE
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 17:41:16 -0600 (CST)


Green Fireball Streaks Over New Hampshire

By Guillermo Alarcon

On Sunday, January 10, 1999, at 7:05 p.m., "Bill Slatton was
driving home when he saw what looked to be a green fireball
streak across the night sky" in Pittsfield, New Hampshire
(N.H.).

Pittsfield (population 1,717) is on Route 28 about 37 miles (59
kilometers) northeast of Manchester, New Hampshire's largest
city.

"'My God, this thing is as clear as day,' he remembers thinking
to himself. 'It was huge. It was right along side of us.'"

"His fiance, Kathy Bickford, saw it, too. Police departments in
Bow (population 600) and Northfield reported sightings, with
callers describing 'a green flash' in the sky."

"Slatton said he and his fiancee saw the fireball for a few
seconds as they drove south on Route 20 in Pittsfield...He said
it was like the fireball that crashes into the Earth in a recent
Dunkin Donuts commercial."

"'It was descending almost like a plane descending. It's hard to
describe,' Slatton said."

"The object was about the size of a nickel or quarter in the
sky, and perhaps a few thousand feet away and a few thousand
feet up, although it was hard to tell, Slatton said."

"It was to the left of them as they drove south, perhaps landing
or crashing in Pittsfield, Epsom or Chichester, said Slatton, a
property maintenance contractor from Chichester," a town located
six miles (9 kilometers) southwest of Pittsfield.

(See the Manchester, N.H. Union-Leader for January 11, 1999,
'Green Flash Streaks Through Central NH Sky' by Derek Ross. Many
thanks to Greg St. Pierre for forwarding the newspaper article.)



http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Nebula/3703/ramses.html

http://www.anw.com/dreamlandfx/images/Triad32a-m.JPG>

http://members.tripod.com/~webtv17/alienface.gif







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 20

               Re: Electrical Explosion Mistaken For UFO Crash

From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@get2net.dk>
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 03:05:46 +0100 (MET)
Fwd Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 04:44:54 -0500
Subject: Re: Electrical Explosion Mistaken For UFO Crash


[List only]

Source: MSNBC Local News,

http://www.msnbc.com/local/KETK/16230.asp

Stig

***

Electrical fireworks off Loop 323

TYLER -- An electrical explosion had some people thinking that a
UFO had landed Sunday night.

Frightened customers from Denny's restaurant and Dunkin' Donuts
were left in the dark, literally. The sound of power lines
buzzing and popping could be heard. Live wires sparked, and
then, a blinding explosion. The night sky filled with a bright
bluish light.

The fire department, Tyler police, and TU electric worked to fix
the sudden disaster. The Denny's restaurant and Dunkin' Donuts
were evacuated. Luckily, there were no injuries.

Kim Sharp, an eyewitness said, "The sky just lit up. I mean it
was almost like daylight, then the lights in Dunkin' Donuts went
out. Everybody was screaming and running to the front door and
then they said, =91no, go back, go back, go back, and it was like
I said ,'I thought it was a UFO.'

NBC 56 News learned on Tuesday all electrical wires and poles
were fixed. The trouble began when an 18-wheeler ran over a
guy-wire. The released tension of the guy-wire caused the end
pole to literally split in half. Power lines began to fall and
there were electrical shortages for miles.

TU electricians said despite what people thought, it was not a
faulty transformer that blew up. It was the negligence of a
truckdriver.

"We had all our customers on with the exception of La Quinta
Motor Inn, probably about three o'clock this morning and we
since made all repairs and everything's back to normal," said
Steve White of TU electric.

Eyewitnesses said they did see the truckdriver, but he fled the
scene almost immediately.


MSNBC is optimized for
=95 Microsoft Internet Explorer
=95 Windows Media Player  =95 MSNBC Terms, Conditions and
Privacy =A9 1999





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 20

                       Re: Military Retirees & Secrecy

From: Dave Vetterick <veterick@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 20:14:13 -0600
Fwd Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 04:49:13 -0500
Subject: Re: Military Retirees & Secrecy


>From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
>Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 08:57:52 +0000
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Military Retirees & Secrecy

>>From: Dave Vetterick <veterick@ix.netcom.com>
>>Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 12:19:11 -0600
>>Fwd Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 07:32:44 -0500
>>Subject: Re: Military Retirees & Secrecy

>>>From: moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com
>>>Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 19:13:05 +0000
>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>>Subject: Military Retirees & Secrecy

Previously I wrote:

>>... if the confiscation were
>>made illegally without a court order or making the film to start
>>with wasn't violating some legal restriction, it wouldn't have
>>happened the second time without my taking legal action.

Roger responded:

>Against whom, Dave? You think these guys are going to politely
>give you their names and admit later what they do? We're not
>dealing with the hypothetical, here; that's the whole point.

My reference to confiscation was in reply to your first
message of Jan 15 in which you said:

"My father worked for a local TV station on the remote crew for
the better part of 45 years. He told me often how police
officers or government officials had confiscated field tapes
from his unit minutes after taping had been completed on some
story. These guys would arrive out of nowhere in the field and
descend on my dad's news truck. Sometimes a reason was given,
sometimes not. In every instance, my father was warned not to
resist."

POLICE AND GOVERNMENT OFFICIALS.

Now you imply they don't identify themselves, confiscate, and
basically do whatever they please without recourse.

Any law enforcement official has to identify himself or risk
the consequences of an individual exercising self defense, and
resisting until the cows come home.

>>If I am conducting myself in a just and legal fashion there is
>>NO WAY I will tolerate illegal actions taken against me by any
>>group or individual.

>>You are quite right, I do not fear the Government. If one
>>doesn't violate the laws of the land there is no reason to.
>>Anything else in my opinion is not rational.

>Well, for starters, my father and his co-workers did nothing to
>violate any laws, so your assertion simply isn't true.

You are reading things between the lines that are not there.I
was NOT asserting or implying anything re your father. You
certainly didn't provide enough details to make any judgment
about your father's activities. His reasons for how he reacted
to this confiscation are his own.

I was simply saying what I would do given the limited scenario
you gave.

In your Jan 17 reply to me you said:

"I have no doubt from the way you present your
arguments that you, genuinely, do not fear the government.
But I think you should."

My opinion is as stated above. If you're not doing something
illegal you have no reason to fear the govmt and don't have to
tolerate illegal conduct by any govmt employee, local, state,
or federal.

>Secondly, no offense, but you seem to be confusing two concepts:

>1) Your own personal courage.

>2) The honesty of the government.

>Just because you, personally, do not fear the government does
>not mean there's nothing to be feared by others. More to the
>point, the government does NOT walk the straight and narrow out
>of fear of Dave Vetterick, or anyone else, I can assure you.

We'll have to agree to disagree. The govmt is honest, althoughI
may feel some policies are misguided and wrong.

Some employees on the other hand may not be honest. If they do
something illegal they SHOULD be fearful just like any other
individual operating illegally..

You can have the last word and post to the list on this subject.
Since it's just you and I discussing it for the most part, I'll
reply further as necessary privately.

Dave Vetterick







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 20

                           Re: UFO Communication?

From: Ed Fouche <fouche@connecti.com>
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 21:21:16 -0600
Fwd Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 05:07:08 -0500
Subject: Re: UFO Communication?


>Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 00:57:41 -0800
>From: Josh Goldstein <clearlt@pacbell.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: UFO Communication?

>All the past discussion of SETI and alien communication has
>brought me to pose a question. How do UFOs communicate?

>If they communicate using the electromagnetic
>spectrum why can't that be detected and perhaps interpreted?

>If the flying triangles are terrestrial in origin I assume we
>would be able to detect many scrambled radio messages. Why don't
>we?


In many cases we can. But, detection does not mean we can
understand the message.

Many forms of radiation are available for communications from
ELF (Extremely low frequency or extremely long wave) to gamma
ray bursts of 10\12th frequency.

You can pick up digital data which not everyone can
decrypt-decode from VLF (Very Low Frequency) to Microwave
transmissions.  My scanner goes from VLF to 2 Giga Hertz (2
billion cycles per second).

Very few people/organizations can intercept all frequencies, the
NSA comes to mind as an organization that can.  Even the NSA
can't decrypt-decode all coded transmissions. Classified
frequencies, method of shifting/transmitting data/communications
changes all the time.

So even if you could pickup or receive these communications, you
wouldn't have a clue what the 'message' was.

Then comes the infrared to ultraviolet (and above)
communications that can have a narrow transmission beam, like
laser or other particle transmission (non photonic) which only
the receiver in the direct line of the transmission
(communication) can pick it up.

A point to point communication is near impossible to intercept.

A sentient species far ahead of us might use neutrons as a form
of communications or even quantum particle pairs like Einstein
Podolsky Rosen (EPR) pairs.

So it's all conjecture as we just don't know.  However it is
very possible with today's technology to have secure
transmission of communications.  Knowing that, how can anyone on
the 'outside' tell if the communications are theirs or ours.

Edgar Fouche - author of Alien Rapture - http://fouchemedia.com








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 20

                       Re: Military Retirees & Secrecy

From: Dave Vetterick <veterick@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 21:46:44 -0600
Fwd Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 05:16:10 -0500
Subject: Re: Military Retirees & Secrecy


>Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 11:20:16 -0800
>From: Susan Watson <susanwatson@earthlink.net>
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Re: Military Retirees & Secrecy

>[Non Subscriber Post]

>I have been following the postings on this thread with great
>interest as I am the daughter of the referred-to officer.

<snip>

>I can see from the postings here that there needs to be some
>clarification. My father is no coward.

<snip>

Nothing said in any of these posts intended or implied cowardice
or any disrespect of any kind toward your father, or to his
sticking to his oath. My father served as honorably as any.
He will be 81 in May. But that doesn't mean his positions are
always correct. He, like your father I suspect and many of that
generation, have old fashion notions. Nothing wrong with that.

>Last night I had a long talk with Dad. The issues raised on this
>List woke my curiosity once again. As I got deeper into trying
>to pick his brain for answers I felt a sense of shame. The
>conclusion that I have arrived at is this:

Shame? Not necessary at all in my opinion.

>Never once has my father swayed from his loyalty and commitment
>to this country. There is honor in this man's heart. He holds to
>his pledge in spite of the fact that he is grievously
>disappointed in the direction of our nation. It would be
>disrespectful for me to attempt any further extraction's of
>information, I am closing the book. I can at least honor the
>man....if not the country that created him.

>Thank you all for your responses.
>Susan Watson

Loyalty, commitment, and honor are not the issues nor were they
ever brought into question. Only if you were being deceitful in
extracting information would you call it disrespectful.

Your father may be the exception. But many, including my own
dad, stubbornly hang on to old ideas even when it's to their own
detriment. Mainly because they don't know about or don't
understand current ways. I'm sure you know what I mean.

I get my father to change by educating him, and at his own pace.
I give him articles, books, etc. and he eventually comes around.
Not always by any means, but often enough.

I suggested you do the same by getting the facts about how long
oaths are expected to be kept. By letting him read some books by
a fellow military man like Col Corso, or even exchange e-mail
with retired military men like Col J. Bond Johnson and George
Filer. They know about Roswell & UFOs as your Dad evidently
does.

If he doesn't want to even think along these lines then so be
it. But out of respect for your dad, at least arm him with
everything he needs to make his own rational and educated
decision based on present day standards. Not based on fear from
30 years ago that may not be real today.

There is no disrespect or shame in this. If you believe humanity
has the right, and would be better off knowing about ET, then
the greater disservice is in letting him depart without making
an informed decision about telling his story.

If you wish to discuss this further privately, I'd be happy to.

Dave Vetterick






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 20

                            Re: The Gift Of Gab!

From: Remy Chevalier <remyc@prodigy.net>
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 23:56:45 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 05:29:53 -0500
Subject: Re: The Gift Of Gab!


[Non-Subscriber Post]

Rally To End Secrecy

October 24th 1999

Noon

Steps of the Capitol Building

Washington DC

http://www.endsecrecy.com

America is America because it's in a state of perpetual
revolution. It has learned over the years to absorb every
extreme into its mainstream culture. Individuality is praised
while slogans like "dare to be different" are the kudos of its
media campaigns. Our Constitution has allowed us such a luxury.
But no massive paradigm shift takes place in this country until
or unless its people assemble in sufficient numbers in
Washington DC. That's liberty and true democracy in action. It
was the case for the civil liberties movement, demanding an end
to the Vietnam war, shutting down nukes, attention for AIDS, all
these issues and causes mobilized millions of people on the Mall
to tip the scales in favor of reason and common sense. But
lately there hasn't been any great catalyst. The Million Man
March and the Peacekeepers don't really count. They were more
about style than substance.

We've all been too busy surfing the web and networking online to
realize what we are doing is not working. It's just like being
on the phone. So while we weren't paying close attention, the
real world outside cyberspace just got worse. It's as if America
has left the rest of the world behind in its cultural evolution,
and now we're faced with an international order controlling our
politicians and our corporations, wanting to bring America down
because the secrets we keep scare them. And rightly so

Strange things are flying in our skies. Rumors of extraordinary
technologies, louder than X-Files fiction, can no longer be
brushed off as wishful thinking. It's come to our realization
that what we were fighting for back in the 60's, 70's & 80's was
just the tip of the iceberg, that military secrets run deeper
and darker than we dared possible. We couldn't or wouldn't admit
the truth to ourselves; our government had run away from us, and
created its own parallel universe to the tune of billions of tax
payer dollars, quietly funneled into black budgets, building
underground cities all over the world.

It wouldn't be quite so dramatic if by doing so, the Powers That
Be and the Status Quo weren't perpetuating an oil-based economy
damaging the very air we breathe at the expense of all life on
earth. Ever since Earth Day 1970 the environmental movement has
been up against a foe, an enemy, an obstacle, call it what you
will, which we ve never been able to identify. A resistance
running deep as an undercurrent against change, which to all
should have simply been self-evident. But there was more to it
than met the eye. Not only did the financial temptation of
keeping the old machinery oiled and running have the upper hand,
but a quasi-religious attachment to post-industrial philosophy
has prevented serious change at the root base of the problem. It
s even visible in the lore of so-called "free energy" or "new
energy" advocates who see in a turn-of-the-century hero like
Nikola Tesla a future that never was instead of a possible one.
They celebrate his forgotten inventions instead of following the
money and paper trail that could lead to where they might be
today.

Over 10.000 scientific documents are classified every day. It
would come to no surprise for most of us to know that since all
these technologies are kept under wraps for their
destructiveness, along with them disappear their beneficial
potential. It's not far fetched to wonder if a great part of our
environmental, or medical problems, didn't already have their
solutions built into those problems before they were so
methodically suppressed. It is to that end that the entire
National Security Act has come into scrutiny by some members of
the House and Senate under the leadership of Senator Moynihan.

The Rally To End Secrecy was already in the works when his work
came to light. The rally plans are an offshoot from the March
For Peaceful Energy that was held last year on the steps of the
Capitol Building on October 24th 1998. We want to bring national
attention to the fact that secrecy has gotten out of hand and
needs to be not only curtailed, but also completely reassessed.
In the past, a timid attempt at a rally to end UFO secrecy held
in DC was foiled by low turnout. The 50th anniversary
celebration at Roswell degenerated into a carnival, thanks to
spoilers from the intelligence community who wants to preserve
the zany aspect of the UFO community intact. It is after all the
perfect cover for testing experimental aircraft.

This is why we are asking you, in the alternative media
community, who frequently address issues such as these, to
promote, publicize and assist us in building momentum for this
event, so that once and for all, those who have kept us in the
dark can be made accountable for their motives.

Remy Chevalier

Rally To End Secrecy

endsecrecy@hotmail.com






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 20

                      Joe Burkes, MD says thanks to Doc

From: Joseph Burkes MD <md1jb3@pol.net>
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 00:21:51 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 05:36:59 -0500
Subject: Joe Burkes, MD says thanks to Doc


Dear fellow friends of Doc.

When I first met the Doc on the internet last year I thought he
might be a fellow medical doctor. I found he was a kindred
spirit who was far more open and supportive than most of my
colleagues when it came to the question of "Are we alone in the
universe?" He understood what I was trying to express and was
very supportive of the views I put forward in the following
position paper.

I wish there were more Docs like Doc. Joe Burkes, MD


The Role of a Power Structure Analysis in ufology

The civilian UFO community, often known as "ufology," exists as
a multitude of individuals and groups with a common interest in
unidentified flying objects. Since 1991 I have shared this
passion with other so called "ufologists."

For several years, I was closely associated with Dr. Steven
Greer's  Center for the Study of Extraterrestrial Intelligence.
In the course of my activities with that group, I had a few
limited interactive  encounters with what appeared to be
Extraterrestrial spacecraft.

For a number of reasons, personal as well as professional, I
have curtailed many of my UFO oriented activities. At this point
I would like to offer my observations concerning what I perceive
is the fundamental problem in this field.

It is my assessment that ufology has failed to recognize the
importance of how the Extraterrestrial presence profoundly
threatens all terrestrial elites. This includes the
international corporate, military, political and religious
leaders of our planet. Without recognizing and thoroughly
analyzing this challenge to terrestrial power, those interested
in  understanding the phenomenon of Extraterrestrial spacecraft
visiting our  planet, will be hopelessly confused. More
importantly, UFO activists may have unrealistic expectations and
maybe wasting important energy in projects that can not bear
fruit given the depths of the power structure's opposition to
acknowledging the ET presence.

Currently, a number of prominent UFO groups are advocating that
Congress hold open hearings on the issue of government secrecy
concerning Extraterrestrial spacecraft visiting our planet.
Retired military and intelligence officers who have had direct
personal experiences with Extraterrestrial intelligence during
their official work have been identified. There is now an
opportunity to inform the public, if these official witnesses
are induced to testify.

As might be expected, the push for public hearings on the topic
of the ET presence has encountered resistance. It has been the
not too secret hope of many UFO activists that some kind of
official disclosure might be underfoot. It is my assessment,
however, that no disclosure will take place without tremendous
pressure on the terrestrial power structure; more pressure than
can be applied to Congress at the current time.

Frustrated by years of official denial, how can UFO enthusiasts
work to remedy this predicament? A broad based coalition,
employing coordinated political action will be an essential part
of the disclosure process. This will probably require dozens of
organizations and thousands of activists. Such a campaign will
likely take the form of the grassroots movements for social
change. Models of such efforts include the union organizing
drives of the 1930s and the peace and the civil rights movements
of the 1960s. To develop such a coalition of individuals and
groups, an analysis of the ET challenge to all terrestrial power
is required.

Our planet's population is divided into more than 100 nation
states. National political leaders are able to exercise their
power on the basis of nationalism. As the prominent ufologist
Stanton Friedman has said, "Nationalism is the name of the
game." Once the people of the planet are permitted to
acknowledge the ET presence, the masses will tend to see
themselves as "terrestrial" or simply "human." Faced with what
will likely be an incredible diversity of ET cultures, people on
our planet may start to identify with the Earth as a whole
rather than with their particular nation state. Thus, the power
of national politicians would be threatened by the admission
that some UFOs represent Extraterrestrial spacecraft built by
non-humans from the stars.

>From the point of view of ordinary citizens, an end to
nationalism and the realization of the slogan "One planet, one
people", might not be tragic at all. Given the sad record of
this century, with over 100 million killed in wars resulting
from national rivalry, it might make good sense to place
nationalism in the dust bin of history. Of course, national
political leaders who derive their power from "the people",
i.e., their nation's people, would understandably be threatened
by an outside presence that undermines their ideological power
bases.

The Extraterrestrial presence challenges military leaders of
every nation. Advanced civilizations visiting our planet appear
to be quite capable of producing craft that can fly circles
around the military's high performance jets. Military leaders
are thus unable to secure our planet's airspace from ET
intrusion. This provides one rationale for the
military-intelligence community's role in maintaining the
secrecy about UFOs.

The Extraterrestrials appear to have access to incredibly
powerful energy systems to propel their spacecraft. Speculation
within ufology has suggested that their craft use non-polluting
"free energy systems." If the authorities acknowledged the ET
presence and over a period of time our culture was allowed to
download such efficient energy technologies, many of our
economic as well as environmental problems might be solved. From
the point of view of the multinational oil corporations, this
would not be a favorable development. The downloading of ET
energy systems would likely threaten the worldwide monopoly that
has been the source of much wealth and influence for important
sectors of the corporate elite. Considering that the Gulf War
and other military actions in the Middle East are driven by a
hunger for cheap oil, we see the strategic importance of what
has been called the "empire of oil." Thus the ET presence
threatens important sectors of the economic elite of our planet.

An important pillar of our planet's belief systems is organized
religion. The true history of our planet may reveal that the
flying saucer phenomenon is really an ancient process rather
than a modern one. A Renaissance religious painting depicting a
flying saucer certainly suggests this possibility. The myths of
ancient civilizations declaring that their knowledge and
technology were obtained from "star people", provides additional
support for ancient astronaut theories.

What if the holy men and prophets of biblical times were in
reality contactees? Their religious experiences may have
reflected encounters with non-human intelligence, some of which
might have been Extraterrestrial in nature. If this theory
proves true or even possible, acknowledging the ET presence
would threaten all organized religion. Thus, the spiritual elite
of our planet is threatened by the ET presence.

If this analysis accurately reflects the perceived self-interest
of our planet's elites, then the Extraterrestrials visiting our
planet must threaten all terrestrial power. The worldwide
secrecy campaign concerning UFOs can now be seen as the logical
consequence of ruling classes, which understandably, take action
in self defense. This need not be seen as a conspiracy. Efforts
to deny the ET presence, to resist public disclosure of their
visitations is the natural response of any social system
attempting to preserve the status quo.

In the course of human development, both evolutionary and
revolutionary historical trends can be seen. The creation of
Christianity out of Judaism can be viewed as the creation of a
revolutionary force that spread monotheism across the planet.
The Roman Empire, cognizant of the challenge, violently
suppressed the new religion that placed an almighty God over the
emperor.

The acceptance of an all powerful and ethical God by this
planet's peoples has done much to promote the welfare of the
Earth's population. Concepts, such as the rule of law and social
justice, as well as the ending of human sacrifice and slavery,
all have their roots in the wave of revolutionary monotheism
which swept our planet during the first millennium of the common
era.

Similarly, the rule of both kings and political despots have
been replaced by the democratic revolutions of the 17th through
20th centuries. The old regime never gives up without a fight.
Indeed the struggle for democracy continues to this day.

It is only natural that the Earth's ruling elites will combat
what some might perceive as the ultimate threat. As long as the
Extraterrestrial visitors spare us undeniable displays of their
physical presence, indirect means can be employed to maintain
the status quo. This includes the ridicule of witnesses and the
suppression of credible reports of encounters. If Philip Corso,
author of "The Day After Roswell", is to be  believed, covert
military actions against ET craft are taking place as well.

Corporate control of the mass media has been used to relegate
reports of UFOs to tabloid formats which trivialize them.
Security oaths, under national security regulations, are
employed to silence credible military witnesses of UFO
encounters. Ufology is, itself, a likely target for
disinformation spread by sections of the intelligence services
authorized to deal with the UFO subculture. Terrestrial power
can be expected to defend itself. These efforts will surely
continue in the future.

The creation of a citizen network to challenge the existing
regimen of secrecy and denial, will by necessity be a difficult
and prolonged struggle. There will be the need for accelerating
the educational process to alert the public of the reality of
Extraterrestrial spacecraft visiting our planet.

One of most important factors in this equation is the actions of
the Extraterrestrials themselves. For reasons that are only
known to them, they have chosen not to impose on our culture
irrefutable displays of their physical presence. Although the
tempo of sightings and other types of human-ET interactions
appears to be accelerating, it seems likely that the proverbial
"landing on the White house lawn" will not occur any time soon.
It may never take place.

Rather than passively waiting for the power structure to
acknowledge the reality of ET spacecraft visiting our planet,
those who feel passionately about this issue should be prepared
to take action. Non- governmental organizations have a long
tradition of finding innovative solutions to important problems.
As a former peace activist from the 1960s through the 1980s, I
recall the slogan, "When the people lead, the leaders will
follow."

If a broad based people's movement is to be created there will
be the need for much organizing. A special role for building
unity also exists because ufology is rife with sectarianism. The
UFO community has in many ways been isolated from the mainstream
culture. Breaking free from this isolation will require a
balanced program of public education.

I would like to encourage ufology to consider this analysis. It
is my sincere hope that by understanding the power relationships
that are at work here we can do much to change the current
situation. I invite comments on the points raised here and look
forward to a productive dialogue.

Sincerely,

Joseph Burkes, MD
md1jb3@pol.net






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 20

                       Re: RAMS - Cleanup The Corners

From: Scott Krause <SKrause272@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 01:14:31 EST
Fwd Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 05:47:47 -0500
Subject: Re: RAMS - Cleanup The Corners


>Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 11:54:20 +0000
>From: Robert A. M. Stephens <sti3818@montana.com>
>To: UFO UpDates Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: RAMS - Cleanup The Corners

>Robert Collins wrote:

<snip>

>>Jeroen Wierda wrote:

>>>Hehehe.... I really start to have some respect for R.A.M.S. by
>>>now. He puts Art Bell, Hoagland and others in shorts. And they
>>>don't like being exposed as entertainers, where they know that
>>>95% of the "ufo-world" think that they are reliable sources of
>>>information. I HOPE this Stephens character makes people
>>>waking up to the scams, and see the theories and stories that
>>>are sent out by the entertainers for what they really are:
>>>That is entertainment.
>
>>>Jeroen Wierda

How can anyone have respect for this type of circus? This is not
entertaining, it's nonsense at the best!!

>-----------------------------------------------------------

>To you, Jeroen, RMC and the rest,

>You all get it. This is enlightening. The point was even if one
>claimed he was a fraud others took it to task and found out it
>was different and all was true. Thus, it makes sense if someone
>like Bell asked a guest, "how many times did you have sex with
>the alien," it then makes sense also to research this claim and
>exchange out a little.

>When Peter Gersten will 'quote me' in an interview, its wise to
>get it all, and not take a claim of activation, or nebulous
>number association, or any other claim, and then look a little
>closer at it. This is fair. When Bell edits a guest without
>recourse, it is best to find out what exactly went on for fact.

Mr. Stephens, the way you acted that night on the Art Bell show
was simply insane. The fact that you can not understand why Bell
cut you off is beyond me. Go back and listen to tape of that
night, it's nuts. Why wouldn't you have started with your list
of questions instead of the babble that occured between you and
Richard Hoagland? You had your shot and blew it!! It would have
been great to hear someone put RCH to the stone on some of the
"data" on his site. Was it just your hate for Hoagland that got
in the way of this? Or was it that you thought you were being
funny or sarcasitic and witty. I for one found you none of
these.

>If Hoagland has stolen NASA pictures on his web site, and he
>does, and claims they are 'Fireballs' over Turd Peak, when in
>fact they are solid rocket motor trails complete with exhaust
>plumes and the vehicles removed crudely from the original photo,
>it stands to reason other photos on his site are Frauds too. And
>then too, the claims associated are also Frauds.

Guilt by association is a dangerous thing Mr. Stephens. Let's
not throw the baby out with the bath water. If you have proof
that the photos are doctored then post it to a web site and
lets see it. Are you not doing the same thing you are so angry
with Mr Hoagland?

>Asked questions. If not, this 'field' of study will continue be
>the 'giggle' factor for Everyman everywhere. I honestly do not
>think any of you and the rest involved wish that. So, police
>oneself.

>Case in point: NASA and other 'guvmint' folks I've known for
>over 25 years think I'm nuts for even getting involved with this
>culture. I have been in it now for 100 days or so, other than a
>few mails over the years when I would drop in to see what in the
>world was happening, and have found many very serious and
>genuinely warm people, which is contrary to my initial
>assessment that I have written about just 2 months ago. I now
>feel that many of these folks need a more serious voice and
>support. In this, I find myself now defending elements of this
>culture that I laughed at internally a short time ago. If
>someone like me can be sucked into this field in seriousness,
>and must defend himself to 'officials' about the lies and
>delusions of people like Hoagland and others, then I think
>others must feel the same.

I don't think you were sucked in by anyone Mr. Stephens, you
came in like a swat team on a raid........here I am now duck.

>Then speak out. It doesn't hurt.

<snip>

>I nor many many others beyond those already mentioned have done
>any malice to anyone in this field. That should be remembered.
>It wasn't I who attacked anyone's intimate service to the United
>States. It wasn't I who cut off anyone after being invited to a
>'debate' on a radio show.

Your actions Mr. Stephens, your actions. What are you thinking?
Are you trying to help in some twisted way? What are you
thinking? For a whole hour on the Bell show you said nothing
that shed light on your claims that Hoagland was a fraud. All
you did was attack Hoagland with malicious intent and repeated
statements that you thought he was a liar.

>But I can state, being absolutely objective, with absolute fact,
>that there are those in this UFO culture who intentionally are
>out to do great harm and issue great shards of disinformation
>that is, and has, and will, only hurt this field of study
>further. Why, I'm not certain.

>And keep in mind, the people in question are the ones who are
>true liars in every way. They have stolen and falsified photos
>on their web sites, they will harbor and hide from the public a
>man who told a professional researcher that our nation's capital
>was going to thermonuclearize itself. They will hide a man who
>has lied to NASA to where he longer is welcome on any NASA site
>in the world. And the list goes on and on.

>You are forwarned. And the very people who really count in this
>industry, have done nothing untoward to anyone, and these are
>the ones these charalatans of dark purpose will attack with true
>dark malice, for absolutely no reason.

>Think people. What in the world is the purpose of this
>disinformation campaign by Bell-Hoagland-Gersten-Bara and that
>whole ilk of the macabre'.

>Wait till you see the 200 questions and just what Art Bell
>didn't want you all to hear. Then, you, the public, can really
>see just what disinformation and lies are all about. I have
>received over 1230 mails as of this morning that DEMAND the
>questions to be posted online publicly. Therefore, since Art
>Bell weaseled out, protecting his little freak show from anyone
>asking the 'Real Fraud' why he is a pathological liar of the
>darkest form, I will then post those questions and answers by me
>after a radio show wishes to field the questions to me and I
>will asked and answer them each. Or, a radio host can asked them
>and I'll answer them for Hoagland in absentia. Then they can be
>posted for further study.

We were waiting for those questions that night on the Bell show
Mr. Stephens. But, you dropped the ball. You in turn did exactly
what you blame others for... you attacked a person and showed no
proof of your claims. Hypocrisy is a bitter pill to swallow....
you've got to be choking.

>All things on balanace, that's fair.

>Perhaps cleaning a little in these dark corners of the industry
>is in order.

>Just a thought.

>Rational, good letters above. Thank you.

I move that this thread should be renamed 'Cleanup The Act'. In
subscribing to various lists I have read alot of wierd posts by
some equally wierd posters, (not this one of course <g>) but Mr.
Stephens takes the cake. I understand that there is alot of
debate on how things should be done in this field, and maybe not
one of us has the right answer right now. But, I think I know
how it shouldn't be done and IMHO Mr. Stephens you are the
poster child for the wrong way.

Thanks and good luck!

Scott Krause
Seattle





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 20

                       Confirmation of Robert Stephens

From: Scot Bowlin <wubi@iquest.net>
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 00:50:02 -0600
Fwd Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 05:58:51 -0500
Subject: Confirmation of Robert Stephens

[Non-Subscriber Post]

To whom it may concern,

Alot of you have noticed my name on many emails that have come
from Robert A.M. Stephens since he entered the UFO field back on
10-16-1998. I wanted to take this time to confirm a few things
as true that Robert has been accused of falsifying. They need to
be clarified now since the information he has offered to the UFO
communtiy has been shown to be true over the time he has been
involved pertinet to the UFO subject. A few more minor items
need to be verified as well. His reluctance to reveal details
about his service to this nation are his perogative. I'm
countering his wishes a little here under the circumstances. His
military record I am most confident will not be available in the
public view.

#1. Larry Mauk, NASA-Kennedy Space Center, Florida, is a real
person. I have met him, I have had dinner with him. Robert and
Larry go back to 1982 as pretty close friends and associates
with the agency. He was in large part responsible for getting me
my job at NASA.

#2. Robert was in the Seals. I have seen the paperwork, I have
seen the pictures of him with his team. I can not elaborate
more, but I am sure of this.

#3. Robert does have access to what he says he does. One does
not have the badges he has without a very thorough security
check. While I worked at NASA I had the lowest clearance that
there was, Robert was much nearer the top, if my memory serves
me he was one of a few who had direct access to the shuttle and
anywhere on any center he wished to go---even the most snesitive
areas at the various top secret air facilities and test beds. He
had also gone through pre astronaut training for the artist in
space project..

#4. Robert is who he says he is. To my knowledge he does not,
nor has he ever worked for NASA. He has always remained a
contractor by choice though NASA has courted him at times to
come onboard. He is a painter of world renown. I have seen his
work, I have seen the press clippings. He was even covered in my
local paper while he visited me. He also is and has done all
sorts of work for the various vendors associated with STS and
NASA. He continues to do this work by choice from his rural home
out in Montana. At times he does travel on NASA assignments and
other directives.

All of the above is true. I can and would verify anywhere,
anytime. I have known Robert for more than 15 years. I have
never known him to fabricate anything about himself because in
truth he does not need to.

His disavowing of himself in that interview where he calls
himself 'Fraud' was his own ruse, I believe, if anyone cared
to think,  to show that everyone in this peculiar discipline
online should be watchful of sensationalized claims. Sometimes,
we can over look fact when we are assailed with fiction. Your
UFO field online is a harbinger of some fiction.

sincerely,

Scot Bowlin <wubi@iquest.net>

11.dd./nb..22bondfivethreeonenine/33.10





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 20

                   Re: And The Truth Shall Set Its Fee...

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 03:33:30 EST
Fwd Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 06:17:18 -0500
Subject: Re: And The Truth Shall Set Its Fee...



>Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 13:43:35 -0600
>From: Donnie W. Shevlin <dshevlin@primary.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: And The Truth Shall Set Its Fee...

>>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
>>Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 03:18:43 EST
>>To: updates@globalserve.net
>>Subject: And The Truth Shall Set Its Fee...

>>Dear Errol, Skeptics, Believers and Faith Healers...

>>Allow me, alas a mere mortal, an opportunity to evaluate your
>>performance, as a group. Of course, I refer _ONLY_ to those few
>>of you who are the culpably ignorant. You know who you are.

><snip>

>>The moral?

>>You, you who speak truth, I worship you. You, who speak your
>>truth, I admonish with this caveat. Your truth may be a lie.
>>And you must live with that.

>>My truth is truth. I can live with that.

>I applaud you Jim. I sit here day after day and try and sort the
>truth. It is a trying matter in itself. A need for profit
>outwieghs the truth in much respect. At least that is what I
>see. They're going for that golden ring that will establish a
>name in Ufology.

>Of course, about profit, how could one make a living if not on
>the profession they choose. Starving artist are just that,
>starving. So Ufologist have to make a living at what they do,
>it's just that they should take pride in the truth of the work
>that they have done. Not to create tainted truth to turn a
>dollar. Or all their real work, true or untrue, will disassemble
>before their eyes.

>My grandfather would say, 'A hundred ah rights is all lost in
>the one oh shit.'.

>Donnie


Donnie,

Thank you for your words of support. However I must make sure
that I am not misunderstood. In the post, I address not the
true researcher, but the false researcher.

There is some redemption for the few who delude themselves into
the mistaken belief that what they do is for the good of all.
But those to whom I spoke in that post are the ones who lie to
the rest of us, not merely to themselves. And money, in my very
humble opinion, has little to do with it. It's more of an ego
trip for them, I think.

Second, I must tell you that from my very limited exposure to
some very few, very courageous, very dedicated people who may
truly be called researchers.... believe me, there is not a one
of them that can make a living at it. Not a bloody one! Trust
me on this point!

Most, if not damned well nearly all of those whom I've met who
are doing the real work in this field must earn their shekels at
something else.

Most nearly all of us, the good guys and the bad, and everyone
in between, know exactly who the players are. But some of us
continue to elude, delude, and otherwise, cheat on the truth.

I think the motto of the guys in the white hats should be from a
Bob Dylan song which reads, "I make shoes for everyone, even
you, and I still go barefoot!"

In conclusion, drink Gripple and feel gooood, again. Or is that
the Pepto Bismol ditty?

Jim





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 20

                   Re: And The Truth Shall Set Its Fee...

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 03:51:54 EST
Fwd Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 06:29:50 -0500
Subject: Re: And The Truth Shall Set Its Fee...


>Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 20:44:35 +0000
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Sean Jones <seanj@tedric.demon.co.uk>
>Subject: Re: And The Truth Shall Set Its Fee...

>>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
>>Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 03:18:43 EST
>>To: updates@globalserve.net
>>Subject: And The Truth Shall Set Its Fee...

>>Dear Errol, Skeptics, Believers and Faith Healers...

>>Allow me, alas a mere mortal,
>>My truth is truth. I can live with that.

>Jim, I mean no disrespect whatsoever but.

>In human terms the truth is often a matter of perspective and
>interpretation, of this I have no doubt.

>I can cite one example that all should be able to relate to:
>There is a car accident involving two cars, one car driver is
>driving fast, the other pulls out of the junction in front of
>the first car. Who is at fault? The fast car driver or the
>driver who pulled out in front of him? The truth is both, but
>will either see it that way? They both have their own
>perspective on the "truth".

>I believe in God and Jesus but I am not in the slightest
>religious, in fact I abhor religion for all the strife it has
>caused and still causes, so this to me is the _truth_ beyond
>human truth's.

>I really do wish we knew the answers to the question that people
>like you raise with your experiences, I really do, but with your
>experience you can see only _your_ truth.

>Said with no insult, slur or whatever against you or _any_
>abductee Jim.

Sean, List and those short, big headed dudes....

How did they say it on StarTrek? I grok? Well, I do. And at
the risk of repeating myself like a garlic and shallot sandwich,
it was Frank Herbert who wrote.... and I hope I got the quote
right, the book is not with me here in the North country where I
am tonight...

"Truth comes close to being the basis for all morality. Which is
profound thinking, when you understand just how unstable the
truth can be!"

However I understand that there are few answers. I understand
that I speak from my memories, my truth. But I always make room
for other possibilities, other realities. Hey, it is possible
that those who call themselves abductees may have sampled the
same mushroom... I doubt it but you never know. And in my case,
it was never mushrooms.... a little Gripple maybe.....

I was not referring to THE TRUTH, which has certainly not been
revealed to me. No. I was speaking of those who claim to have
truth and proclaim it as fact. Anyone who speaks ex-cathedra, as
some do in this venue, is insane, on Gripple or just plain
lying. And that is inexcusable.

Thank you and (Hic) good night.

Jim






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 20

                       Re: R.A.M.S. - A Parting Shot?

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 03:27:49 -0600
Fwd Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 06:34:13 -0500
Subject: Re: R.A.M.S. - A Parting Shot?


>Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 17:32:35 +0000
>From: Robert A. M. Stephens <sti3818@montana.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: R.A.M.S. - A Parting Shot?

>>Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 08:17:09 -0600
>>From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: R.A.M.S. - A Parting Shot?

><snip>

>>Perhaps (?) -- but I would find your arguments more compellingly
>>convincing if you would refrain from your encopric and
>>unsettling digressions, for a moment, and answer those questions
>>a few of us had regarding STS-48. <g>.

>I did.

No sir -- you did not. You trotted out the old, and very
competently discredited, NASA excuse.

>On four radio shows and in 9 email posts-detailed dissertations.
>STS-48,  STS-80,  = frozen ejecta from on orbit vehicles.

. . . And Dr. Haines, Dr. Kasher, and (I believe) Stanton
Friedman reduced your "frozen ejecta" to bull ejecta. Moreover,
your "9 email posts-detailed dissertations" detailed bupkus. Who
are you, really?

Lehmberg@snowhill.com


--
Explore the Alien View!
Ponder the Wit & Wisdom of Ching Chow!

http://www.fortunecity.com/roswell/arecibo/46/

<Updated 18 January>

John Ford Restoration Fund -- Send your checks and
money orders to _me_, Alfred Lehmberg
(cut out the lawyers, they got their's) at:
304 Melbourne Drive, Enterprise AL, 36330. Strict records kept.

"Only thin, _very light_ envelopes with a return address will be
accepted <g>." ~~~ $225.00 pledged -- $125.00 collected ~~~

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see from
afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, while burning at the
fundamentalist's stake.






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 20

                       Re: RAMS - Cleanup The Corners

From: Robert A. M. Stephens <sti3818@montana.com>
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 02:46:16 +0000
Fwd Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 10:31:02 -0500
Subject: Re: RAMS - Cleanup The Corners


>From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
>Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 22:52:26 +0000
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: RAMS - Cleanup The Corners

>Mr. Stephens,

>Don't you think this charade has gone on long enough?

No.

>Your lack of familiarity with celestial mechanics was bad
>enough, but simple math dictates that 600 messages a day would
>add up to 4,200 messages a week. Even if you limited yourself to
>only one minute per message, it would require 70 hours a week to
>read them all.

My staff and ISP and extra server seems to do just fine. I have
a job. I mentioned nothing about celestial mechanics. However,
I am correct in mails about orbital mechanics. Perhaps, like
Bell, you've become confused. That is okay.

>Don't you have a job? Or can you really afford to spend 10 hours
>a day, 7 days a week, reading your "fan mail"?

I have a job.

>This is about the most stupid thing I've heard to date.

I am sure it is.

>What is your problem, man? Can't you stop yourself from lying or
>is it simply beyond your control? Get some professional help,
>dude...

I am not aware of a problem at this time. I do not lie except to
call my myself a fraud only to find that others have taken to
task this and have found I am not a fraud.

I've never had professional help. However, with this culture
online I feel this is a very strong possibility.

I fail to make the correlation that I am a 'dude'. I do not
dress in formal attire, generally.


sincerely,

Robert A.M. Stephens
NASA Documentation Program
Stillwater Mills
Contractor-Aerospace
406-745-3818
sti3818@montana.com
http://198.116.116.10/gallery/arts/samples.html






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 20

                   Re: And The Truth Shall Set Its Fee...

From: Sharon Kardol <sharon@hotmix.com.au>
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 18:09:37 +0800
Fwd Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 10:33:32 -0500
Subject: Re: And The Truth Shall Set Its Fee...


>Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 20:44:35 +0000
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Sean Jones <seanj@tedric.demon.co.uk>
>Subject: Re: And The Truth Shall Set Its Fee...

>>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
>>Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 03:18:43 EST
>>To: updates@globalserve.net
>>Subject: And The Truth Shall Set Its Fee...

>>Dear Errol, Skeptics, Believers and Faith Healers...

>>Allow me, alas a mere mortal,
>>My truth is truth.  I can live with that.

<snip>

>I believe in God and Jesus but I am not in the slightest
>religious, in fact I abhor religion for all the strife it has
>caused and still causes, so this to me is the _truth_ beyond
>human truth's.

<snip>

Mr Jones (Sean, if you will),

I was just curious how you could believe in God without being
religious?  I always thought they were synonimous with each
other.

Wouldn't you say it's not religion that has caused strife, but
the morons (oh, I mean people) who interpret it "in their
belief" to defend their "God" anyway possible?  Surely the image
of religion has suffered (as everything in history does) at the
desctructive hands of selfish humans.

I don't want to get into a long drawn out unwinnable arguement
with anyone, just curious of your opinion.

Cheers
Sharon K






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 20

                    Re: 'Rods' - On The Learning Channel

From: Jose Escamilla <rods@rmi.net>
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 03:40:38 +0300
Fwd Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 11:06:16 -0500
Subject: Re: 'Rods' - On The Learning Channel

Rods - Sony VX-1000 Tests


Dear Bruce and Roger,

I have to explain myself here. First of all, I have been doing
these tests and have observed all the data as a layman and in
those terms. I wish I knew all the technical things that Bruce
has and I really appreciate your input Bruce as I do Roger's.
Jim Peters, Ken Swartz and I did these tests with the Sony
VX-1000 and if we had the resources we would have done the same
things with a variety of camcorders used in the past, just for
arguement's sake.

The bolt with the Sony tests, actually appears on, at the most,
on three frames of video and this was at a point where I pulled
out the zoom to it's maximum "wide shot" field of view.

I failed to mention in my first write up that I had set the
camera's view to match what I was seeing with the naked eye.

When the camera was ten feet away from the ribbon, I didn't have
it "full wide" shot. I looked through the viewfinder and kept my
left eye open and matched what the camera was capturing with the
way my naked eye was percieving the scene.

I always do this when videotaping for Rods because it's obvious
that when the camera is set at wide angle, what it is capturing
is actually not what you are seeing with the naked eye.

When taping for Rods at Midway with a single camcorder in 1994,
I knew that we needed to do this in order to have some
references as to far they might have passed by from the
camcorder.

At the speed the bolt was traveling, using the matching the
naked eye viewpoint, it only appears in one frame, sometimes in
a frame and a field, depending on the distance the camera is
from the ribbon.

The bolt blurs using digital zoom extended all the way into the
scene from 100 feet away, which for all it's worth, I was
worried about. I wanted to make sure that once optical zoom, as
compared to the electronic digital zoom, would not fool us as to
what was really there.

I am only saying all this in layman's terms, but the test proved
positive as far as visuals are concerned from this aspect.

This tells us that if a Rod was captured at the cave, and Mark,
(the camerman), zoomed the camera into the scene at maximum
digital zoom, from one hundred feet away, that if the Rod was
100 feet away from the camera, and it 16 1/2" in length, and
captured in one frame of video, that it could have been
traveling at 100 to 136 mph.

However if the Rod was captured in five frames of video at 100
feet away and at full digital zoom, then it was traveling
slower.

In all, this test gave us an indicator that Rods are not
traveling in the thousands of miles per hour as percieved by us
and others at the beginning of our videotaping them in 1994.

At the least we have somewhat realistic possible velocities of
these things. I am desperately trying to get the funding for the
Kodak Motion Analyzer cameras so that we can take them to the
cave in Mexico, shoot in stereo and at frame speeds from 250 to
10,000 "real fps" so that we can get the data that accurately
tells us what's going here.

I know that setting up two cameras side by side is not that
expensive, but I want to cover all aspects and leave no stone
unturned.

Bruce, I finally got the maps and coordinates of the cave that
you requested I send you a year ago. Jim is making copies of all
the information, maps, etc., and I will send this to you as soon
as possible, along with the time, date and other information
taken by Mark Lichtle in 1996, with the Rod that enters the
shadows of the cave and the rest of the shots taken at that time
period.

Continuing with the effort...

Jose Escamilla





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 20

                          Re: Guilt By Association?

From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net>
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 03:11:50 -0800
Fwd Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 11:08:49 -0500
Subject: Re: Guilt By Association?


>Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 20:13:58 +0000
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Sean Jones <seanj@tedric.demon.co.uk>
>Subject: Guilt By Association?

>With the "Tent Footage" fully debunked by Tim and Phil, the
>Alien Autopsy must also be fake/hoaxed/bogus purely because it
>came from the same mill does it not?

>I wonder is it time to take a vote people? All those who
>believe the AA genuine hold your hands up, OK now all you who
>think its fake hold your hands up.

Dear Sean:

My hand is up. I think its fake.

-  Larry Hatch







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 20

                  Re: Mother Shipton and Natural Abductions

From: Lawrie Williams <nemesis@fastinternet.net.au>
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 22:03:54 +1000
Fwd Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 11:12:18 -0500
Subject: Re: Mother Shipton and Natural Abductions

Here is a Mystery.

Lets take the worst case scenario, that the Prophecies of Mother
Shipton are a hoax. Even if so, how did someone know more about
abduction technology than most educated people know at the dawn
of the 21stC?

Lawrie


____________________________________________

And before the race is built anew
A silver serpent comes to view
And spew out men of like unknown
To mingle with the earth now grown
Cold from its heat and these men can
Enlighten the minds of future man.

To intermingle and show them how
To live and love and thus endow
The children with the second sight.
A natural thing so that they might
Grow graceful, humble and when they do
The Golden Age will start anew.

The dragons tail is but a sign
For mankinds fall and man's decline.
And before this prophecy is done
I shall be burned at the stake, at one
My body singed and my soul set free
You think I utter blasphemy
You're wrong. These things have come to me
This prophecy will come to be.

Mother Shipton
____________________________________________










   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 20

              Re: Government To Protect Us From Space Creatures

From: Fabrizio Monaco <F.Monaco@stm.it>
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 12:58:49 +0100
Fwd Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 11:17:40 -0500
Subject: Re: Government To Protect Us From Space Creatures


>From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@get2net.dk>
>Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 05:39:46 +0100 (MET)
>Subject: Government Planning To Protect Earth From Space Creatures
>To: updates@globalserve.net

>[List Only]


Hello all,

The question is: how can we fight against unknown viruses? We
are talking about extraterrestrial microbes and i think that
nobody had never seen or analyzed an extraterrestrial microbe
before isn't it?

So how can US government claim to plan to protect earth from
extraterrestrial microbes? What kind of microbes they expect?
Protect earth from what? I think that if the government is
planning this kind of protection is because they know something
we do not.

Regards,

Fabrizio Monaco
CISETI International Coordinator
f.monaco@stm.it







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 20

                           Re: UFO Communication?

From: Cheyne Conrad <chyren23@q-net.net.au>
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 19:59:12 +0800
Fwd Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 11:22:24 -0500
Subject: Re: UFO Communication?


>Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 13:37:11 -0800
>From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: UFO Communication?

>Dear Josh:

><snipped discussion on possible UFO com methods>

>"Telepathy", at least in the ESP sense does not appeal to me
>for these purposes. The human brain simply doesn't have the
>power ( watts ) the frequency nor the proper antennas.


Hi Larry...

Presumably we're not talking about 'human brains', here. We
don't know much about the guys who 'pilot' these UFOs, but we're
pretty sure they aren't human. Telepathy might be a very
efficient and highly evolved communication method in some
lifeforms, so efficient that they might not have ever needed
'primitive' technological methods, such as radio or laser.

C D Conrad



=====================================================

Paranoia is simply a heightened state of awareness

=====================================================







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 20

                 Sightings from Taree to Port Macquarie, Oz

From: Diane Harrison <tkbnetw@fan.net.au>
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 22:38:10 +1000
Fwd Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 11:27:10 -0500
Subject: Sightings from Taree to Port Macquarie, Oz


The Keith Basterfield Network Australasia
tkbnetw@fan.net.au

****************************************************************
UFO Australian  Research Network Hot Line Number
                       1800 77 22 88 Free Call
****************************************************************


1800 callin 00032 to 00033
Mass UFO Sightings from Taree to Port Macquarie,

Taree, Old Bar, Beach 8.03pm & 9.33pm
Names not known.
A groups of young people called the 1800 77 22 88 Hot line

1st Message: Voice: "very excited".  8.03pm
Hi where at Old Bar and where watching at a lot of white lights
in the Sky moving around in all directions "can some one come
and have a look" sorry can't give you a phone number where at a
phone box. END of first message.

2nd Message: Voice: "very excited and scared". 9.33pm
Hi me again where looking at the lights and now their forming an
ark of white light its beautiful, but where really scared we
have to go "where leaving the beach".

Inquiry by phone Taree Police Station 11.00pm: Diane Harrison.
I called the Taree Police station and told them I had 3 calls
from a group of young people on the beach at Old Bar, whom where
very scared. I asked the policeman if there had been any reports
of strange things happening in their area tonight.

He said: "yes we have had quite a few phone calls from has far
has Port Macquarie about orange balls of lights in the sky in
the last few hours. I said: "What do you think it could be,
could it be the RAAF doing manoeuvres out to sea.

He said: "yes that it was the RAAF dropping flare's.

Inquire by phone 11.15pm:
William Town RAAF Base

I asked the lady who answered the phone: "Can you tell me if
your doing any night manoeuvres tonight off the coast of Taree
to Port Macquarie" She said: " One moment mam I will check the
log"! NO mam we are not! then "she stated" "I have had another
caller asking the same question."

I  then called the Taree Police Station again around 11.25pm
Police mans Voice: "Not warm has before" I said: That I had just
called William Town RAAF base and they had told me they where
not conducting any manoeuvres in the area. Police mans Voice:
"Surprised and cool" He said: "It's hard to get any information
out of the RAAF at the best of times." I said: "They didn't have
a problem telling me, she even went and checked the log". I
said: If any more calls come in could you please pass them on to
the free call UFO hot Line. He said: "Free call" I said: "Yes
the caller doesn't have to pay to report what they see it's
free. He took the number down. End

Now what did go on last night off the coast Taree and Port
Macquarie did the Taree Police "call William Town" to check?
:>) can anyone else find out more?

Skywatchers keep a watch tonight - they may be back :>)!

Regards Diane Harrison







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 20

                     Re: Confirmation of Robert Stephens

From: Patricia Mason <pmason@ee.net>
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 07:49:55 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 11:29:12 -0500
Subject: Re: Confirmation of Robert Stephens


All:

I've been in contact with Larry Mauk
<Larry.Mauk-1@pp.ksc.nasa.gov>. He is a real person for God's
sake. Mr. Gersten, you can verify this by going to

http://x500.ksc.nasa.gov/x500.html

and doing a search on Larry Mauk. Write him yourself - notice
also that Mr. Mauk does have a NASA email address. I'm sure he
will be happy to respond.

Pat







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 20

                       Re: Military Retirees & Secrecy

From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 09:17:48 +0000
Fwd Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 11:35:27 -0500
Subject: Re: Military Retirees & Secrecy


>From: Dave Vetterick <veterick@ix.netcom.com>
>Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 20:14:13 -0600
>Fwd Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 04:49:13 -0500
>Subject: Re: Military Retirees & Secrecy

>>From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
>>Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 08:57:52 +0000
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>Subject: Military Retirees & Secrecy

Previously, I had written:

>"My father worked for a local TV station on the remote crew for
>the better part of 45 years. He told me often how police
>officers or government officials had confiscated field tapes
>from his unit minutes after taping had been completed on some
>story. These guys would arrive out of nowhere in the field and
>descend on my dad's news truck. Sometimes a reason was given,
>sometimes not. In every instance, my father was warned not to
>resist."

Dave replies:

>Now you imply they don't identify themselves, confiscate, and
>basically do whatever they please without recourse.

I think you misunderstand. When I ask if you think these guys
are going to politely identify themselves, I don't mean what
organization they work for; that's useless without actual names.

According to my father, these guys did not always identify
themselves by name; sometimes only the organization they worked
for. Sometimes my father had to make an assumption about the
organization based only on the flash of a badge or the fact that
the person was wearing a police officers uniform. The few times
they did give a name, it apparently turned out to be false or
the individual could not be found within the ranks of the
organization in question. The men may have been frauds, their
identities hidden, or their affiliations kept secret, but their
threats were very real. And that's the real point here.

Moving on, Dave offers:

>If you're not doing something
>illegal you have no reason to fear the govmt and don't have to
>tolerate illegal conduct by any govmt employee, local, state,
>or federal.

I'm sorry, Dave, but I find this impossible to accept.

Here in Houston, a Hispanic man was recently shot 44 times in
the back by 5 police officers at point blank range. One officer
emptied his weapon and actually reloaded. The slain man was
asleep and unarmed. An inquiry found no wrong doing even though
the officers had no warrant and had busted into the guy's
apartment.

On a minimal level, of the 4 traffic tickets I've ever received
in my life, only one was correct; the others bogus. I tried to
fight them and lost. Why? Lack of proof.

I recently was involved in a small claims lawsuit where the
judge refused to recuse himself over a conflict of interest. He
had the courtroom cleared before discussing the matter with my
attorney. BTW, there are no court reporters in small claims. So,
again, lack of proof.

Further, the final judgement was altered and back dated by the
judge to favor opposing council (his lawyer buddy) long after
the judge's jurisdiction had expired. We could prove the
conflicting dates but not the judge's involvement. Why? Lack of
proof.

I could on and on about myself and others I know that received
unfair treatment by law enforcement and the legal system and how
we were left with no evidence to back up our claims, but what's
the point? If you, personally, believe the government is honest
then these things don't count.

Finally, Dave offered:

>We'll have to agree to disagree. The govmt is honest, although I
>may feel some policies are misguided and wrong.

>Some employees on the other hand may not be honest. If they do
>something illegal they SHOULD be fearful just like any other
>individual operating illegally..

I think you are correct.

We will simply have to agree to disagree.

I do not feel the government is honest at all. Most of the
employees probably are, but the decision makers and law
enforcement groups are highly suspect in my book.

Take care,

Roger Evans





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 20

                          Re: Guilt By Association?

From: Bob Shell <bob@bobshell.com>
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 09:00:39 +0000
Fwd Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 11:38:02 -0500
Subject: Re: Guilt By Association?


>Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 20:13:58 +0000
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Sean Jones <seanj@tedric.demon.co.uk>
>Subject: Guilt By Association?

<snip>

>I wonder is it time to take a vote people? All those who believe
>the AA genuine hold your hands up, OK now all you who think its
>fake hold your hands up.


I'm holding up both hands because I still don't know if it is
real or fake.  I don't think Ray Santilli knows if it is real or
fake, either.

Bob Shell







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 20

                   Re: And The Truth Shall Set Its Fee...

From: Sean Jones <seanj@tedric.demon.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 14:22:17 +0000
Fwd Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 11:40:40 -0500
Subject: Re: And The Truth Shall Set Its Fee...


>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
>Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 03:51:54 EST
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Re: And The Truth Shall Set Its Fee...

>>Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 20:44:35 +0000
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>From: Sean Jones <seanj@tedric.demon.co.uk>
>>Subject: Re: And The Truth Shall Set Its Fee...

Hi Jim

>Sean, List and those short, big headed dudes....

Phew at least I'm tall so at least I'm half out of this group
<G>.

>How did they say it on StarTrek? I grok?

Actually, the term "Grok" comes from Bob Hienlien's book
"Stranger in a Strange Land". An epic tome that whilst written
in the sixties is still a very good read.

>Well, I do. And at
>the risk of repeating myself like a garlic and shallot sandwich,
>it was Frank Herbert who wrote.... and I hope I got the quote
>right, the book is not with me here in the North country where I
>am tonight...

<snip>

>"Truth comes close to being the basis for all morality. Which is
>profound thinking, when you understand just how unstable the
>truth can be!"

>I was not referring to THE TRUTH, which has certainly not been
>revealed to me. No. I was speaking of those who claim to have
>truth and proclaim it as fact. Anyone who speaks ex-cathedra, as
>some do in this venue, is insane, on Gripple or just plain
>lying. And that is inexcusable.

>Thank you and (Hic) good night.

I think I got your gist, and I'm sorry if I misunderstood your
original post. my only excuse is that I read your post late last
night and the candles where burning quite low :-).

---
    In an infinite universe infinitely anything is possible.
                       Sean Jones
 Homepage--http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Zone/1745/index.htm
            UFO page--http://www.tedric.demon.co.uk/







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 20

               Firmage's Manuscript - The Word Is 'Marketing'

From: Wendy Christensen <christensen@catlas.mv.com>
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 11:21:23 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 12:01:09 -0500
Subject: Firmage's Manuscript - The Word Is 'Marketing'

Hello, List...

Anyone who has slogged through the 240+ pages of the "short
version" of Firmages's compendium now knows that "The Word" is
'Marketing'.

Firmage did not become a zillionaire by being a dummy. He knows
what is required to cut through the noise in the marketplace
(especially the overhyped internet marketplace) and how far one
needs to go to get attention. Thus, his clever, if somewhat
overwrought, "pre-launch" announcement of his e-commerce
website, due to begin operations "sometime next year." Indeed,
this attention-garnering pre-launch appears to be the entire
purpose of his current enterprise.

Firmage cleverly weaves together in his text elements of
traditional religion, folklore, new-age ideas of various
pedigrees, ufology, dramatic sightings and encounters, aliens
and angels, pop culture, philosophy, millenarian zealotry and
history (real and otherwise). There is nothing new here, either
in the form or the content. Firmage offers tantalizing hints
about his own mysterious "paranormal experience," while refusing

to characterize it as aliens, angels, ghosts, ascended masters,
whatever -- while leaving open the interpretation to his
readers. This is an old maketing ploy - let your tales be
appropriately dramatic yet sufficiently vague so as to
accommodate the needs, wishes and beliefs (whatever those may
be) of your target market.

Only very late in the manuscript, and then only in passing, as
if an afterthought, does Firmage mention his upcoming website
launch. This is a masterful use of understatement, of making the

biggest psychological impression by whispering the real news
while bellowing the hype to the rooftops.

By calling out all these fascinating pop-culture elements, and
by visibly and noisily quitting his lucrative CEO job, Firmage
has garnered an enormous amount of free publicity. Before this,
he was a rich guy; now he is a rich celebrity, and, better yet,
one wearing the aura of one of 'the chosen', endowed with some
sort of special connection to 'higher knowledge' or 'higher
spirituality'. This, of course, is veritable catnip to the
upscale, affluent, technologically savvy but
spiritually-yearning online buyers he is hoping to hook.

Firmage thinks he has a new idea: providing a "one-stop
shopping" online commerce site where buyers can direct profits
from their purchases to their favorite charities. (i-give and
others are doing this already.) Time will tell if the hype,
publicity and personal aura he has assumed will bring him
success in this new venture. The stock market, the pundits, the
talk-show hosts, etc., now know who he is. He is a personality,
a celebrity, an enigma (if only self-defined). How many people
trying to launch e-commerce sites can claim anywhere near that
status and level of visibility? Very clever. Well, done, Mr.
Firmage.

I am not criticizing Firmage's approach; from a marketing
standpoint it is masterful. But is would be a mistake to take
this whole "WordIsTruth" phenomenon for more than it is: a
clever, unusually elaborate (he's rich; he can afford it!)
pre-launch for a website. Just remember: "The Word is
Marketing."





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 20

                        Area 51 - The Alien Interview

From: Michel M. Deschamps <ufoman@ican.net>
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 12:02:51 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 12:57:54 -0500
Subject: Area 51 - The Alien Interview


To Errol & List,

I would like to know the date when the special 'Area 51 - The
Alien Interview' was aired.  A friend of mine who works in the
mining industry was given a really good copy of it, and in turn,
allowed me to make one for myself.

Thanks for your help.

Michel M. Deschamps
UFO Researcher/Historian





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 20

                      Re: Area 51 - The Alien Interview

From: Moderator, UFO UpDates -  Toronto
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 13:52:12 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 13:52:12 -0500
Subject: Re: Area 51 - The Alien Interview





>From: Michel M. Deschamps <ufoman@ican.net>
>To: <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Area 51 - The Alien Interview
>Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 12:02:51 -0500

>To Errol & List,

>I would like to know the date when the special 'Area 51 - The
>Alien Interview' was aired.

Michel,

A trip to The UpDates Archive (There are almost 16,000 posts to
UpDates there - URL below) and use of the search engine produced
the following - and _anyone_ can do it <VBG>:



-----

UFO UpDates Mailing List

                Area 51 Film On 'Strange Universe' - 04-14-97

From: Stig_Agermose@online.pol.dk (Stig Agermose)
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 21:12:54 +0200
Fwd Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 15:58:00 -0400
Subject: Area 51 Film On 'Strange Universe' - 04-14-97


'Strange Universe' Devotes Entire Show on Monday, April 14 to Exclusive
Sneak Preview of Alien Interview Smuggled From Area 51

LOS ANGELES, April 10 /PRNewswire/ -- On Monday, April 14, "Strange
Universe" will broadcast an exclusive sneak preview of allegedly
smuggled footage from Area 51 of an alien interview. The footage is so
extraordinary that, for the first time since the launch of "Strange
Universe," an entire program will be devoted to a single topic.

Close encounter witnesses Whitley Strieber, Steve Neill, Jesse Long and
Alice Leavy viewed the footage and are interviewed as part of this
special program.

This "Strange Universe" exclusive will feature video from a six minute
piece of footage smuggled out of Area 51 by a mysterious person known
only as "Victor." Victor claims that he had "occasion to be there" and
took this while the entire contents of a massive series of interviews
with a number of alien creatures was being downloaded from video to
analog.

This video purports to be of an alien creature being filmed through a
one way mirror and being questioned by a U.S. General and a telepathic
aide.

Renee Barnett, "Strange Universe" director of research, stated, "I had
heard rumors about this video a few months ago but it was only this
week that we were able to obtain the right to broadcast a limited
segment of this extraordinary alien interview."

Famed author Whitley Strieber who wrote about his close encounter
experiences in the book, "Communion," (made into a motion picture
starring Christopher Walken) stated, "There are things about this
footage that are particularly striking. Some of the least known
features reported by witnesses are presented here. If this tape is not
authentic, then it must have been made by people with very special
inside knowledge."

Area 51 is alleged to be a top secret military installation in Nevada.
Until recently, the U.S. government denied that this underground base
even existed. Some believe that Area 51 is the center of the U.S.
government's clandestine UFO research.

"Strange Universe" is a syndicated half-hour daily newsmagazine
produced by Chris-Craft/United Television and distributed by RYSHER
Entertainment. SOURCE RYSHER Entertainment




                   Search for other documents to/from: stig_agermose

               [ Next Message | Previous Message | This Day's Messages ]
           [ This Month's Index | UFO UpDates Main Index | MUFON Ontario ]

                 UFO UpDates - Toronto - updates@globalserve.net
                  Operated by Errol Bruce-Knapp - ++ 416-691-0716

    A Hand-Operated E-Mail Subscription Service for the Study of UFO Related Phe
nomena.
         To subscribe please send your first and last name to updates@globalserv
e.net
                Message submissions should be sent to the same address.

-----

There are almost 16,000 posts to UpDates there
ebk







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 20

                   Sagan On The Pyramids of Elysium, Mars

From: Kent Steadman <Phikent@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 13:08:41 EST
Fwd Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 14:56:00 -0500
Subject: Sagan On The Pyramids of Elysium, Mars


ORBIT: The Pyramids of Elysium, Mars
CyberSpace ORBIT
http://members.aol.com/phikent/orbit/orbit.html
Kent Steadman, Editor

Behold the ancient Martian island, Elysium, perhaps the true
Atlantis.

Carl Sagan, in his very popular (1980) TV series, 'Cosmos',
showed pictures of "The pyramids of Elysium" taken by the
Mariner 9 mapping of Mars in 1972. This picture is reproduced on
page 129 of his book, Cosmos; and on page 130 he has the
following footnote about these Elysium pyramids:


"The largest are 3 kilometers across at the base, and 1
kilometer high -- much larger than the pyramids of Sumer, Egypt
or Mexico on Earth. They seem eroded and ancient, and are,
perhaps, only small mountains, sandblasted for ages. But they
warrant, I think, a careful look." [Sagan]


ELYSIUM IMAGES
http://members.aol.com/phikent/orbit/orbit.html







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 21

                      A Book Of 1999? 'UFO Revelation!'

From: Tim Matthews <matthews@zetnet.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 05:32:55 -0000
Fwd Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 10:26:57 -0500
Subject: A Book Of 1999? 'UFO Revelation!'

[He of the computer with the creeping clock/calendar --ebk]

!NEWSFLASH!!

On January 22nd 1999 the first copies of my book "UFO Revelation
- The Secret Technology Exposed?" will be made available for
review. The official publication date is February 18th 1999. US
readers should be able to order their copies through their local
bookstore, amazon.com or via Sterling in New York.

Despite the many attempts to attack both myself and my research
this book is the first to approach the question of secret
military aircraft from a Ufological point of view. It pulls no
punches and provides a credible, factual and detailed overview
of the many secret aviation technologies whose roots can be
traced back to the 1930s.

There is much fully-referenced and new information in "UFO
Revelation " relating to flying disc programmes, current
developments in Britain, Europe and the USA.

The book is over 240 pages in length and should be available in
most good bookshops. It will also be available at the big
Southport UFO Conference in February. Review copies should be
requested from the publicity department at Blandford in London.
Tel; Karen McCarthy at Blandford; UK (0171) 420 5594 for more
information.

Although this research is not popular with either 'skeptics' or
'believers' we are now moving past this rather stale perspective
and towards uncovering further truths about classified discplane
projects undertaken by the US Navy and US Air Force from the
earliest days of the postwar period. Approximately 1,000 pages
of FOIA material should be available within the next few months
although it will take time to examine these in detail.

This is an exciting time for Ufology and I hope that you will
consider getting hold of a copy of the book. It should prove
invaluable in your quest for the truth about UFOs........

Thanks,

Tim Matthews - Lancashire UFO Society/British UFO Studies Centre.







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 21

                       Re: RAMS - Cleanup The Corners

From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 14:44:54 +0000
Fwd Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 10:40:47 -0500
Subject: Re: RAMS - Cleanup The Corners


>From: Robert A. M. Stephens <sti3818@montana.com>
>Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 02:46:16 +0000
>Fwd Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 10:31:02 -0500
>Subject: Re: RAMS - Cleanup The Corners

>>From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
>>Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 22:52:26 +0000
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>Subject: Re: RAMS - Cleanup The Corners

Previously, I had offered the following in regard to Stephens
claim of receiving 600 messages a day in support of his
position:

>>Your lack of familiarity with celestial mechanics was bad
>>enough, but simple math dictates that 600 messages a day would
>>add up to 4,200 messages a week. Even if you limited yourself to
>>only one minute per message, it would require 70 hours a week to
>>read them all.

Stephens response:

>My staff and ISP and extra server seems to do just fine. I have
>a job. I mentioned nothing about celestial mechanics. However,
>I am correct in mails about orbital mechanics. Perhaps, like
>Bell, you've become confused. That is okay.

Are you telling us that you have a staff just to read your "fan
mail"? How many people do you employ? Who are they? How long
have they worked for you? Better yet, why don't you foward all
4,200 pieces of mail supporting your position to Updates? I'm
sure we'd all like to read them.

(What do you say, ebk?)

[What do you mean _we_ Kemo Sabe? Better just to your
mail-box - I'll accept your word on the number --ebk]

Moving on, are you saying that your previous assertions
regarding the moon's orbit is correct? Please explain
specifically what you mean.

Roger Evans





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 21

                           Re: UFO Communication?

From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 14:38:21 EST
Fwd Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 10:38:26 -0500
Subject: Re: UFO Communication?


>Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 13:37:11 -0800
>From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net>
>Fwd Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 03:10:51 -0500
>Subject: Re: UFO Communication?

>>Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 00:57:41 -0800
>>From: Josh Goldstein <clearlt@pacbell.net>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>Subject: UFO Communication?

>>Fellow UpDates subscribers,

>>All the past discussion of SETI and alien communication has
>>brought me to pose a question. How do UFOs communicate?

>Dear Josh:

>That is a highly interesting question, one I have pondered for
>a long time.

<snip>

>Suppose they are indeed able to manipulate gravity .. perhaps
>creating artificial gravity waves. What a neat way to send
>messages! That's only one possibility.

<snip>

>This does not preclude the use of "older" technology ( radio,
>microwave, lasers .. ) if and when they are more appropriate;
>but I suggest that they would not rely on these media .. if only
>to prevent us from listening in.

>>If the flying triangles are terrestrial in origin I assume we
>>would be able to detect many scrambled radio messages.

>>Why don't we?  [Josh]

>That's another interesting line of inquiry. If the FTs are some
>advanced military technology, they should at least send out
>conventional signals which should be detectable, if not
>readable.

Larry, Josh:

Nowadays, even common military radio communications requiring
secrecy is digital and employs fast (many times a second)
frequency-changing techniques which make interception very
difficult, even though the messages may be "uncoded", in a
traditional way.  Add to this the fact that hypothetical ETs
would be unlikely to use any Earth-based language and they would
not be limited to certain "Internationally agreed-upon" military
frequencies.  Such a system, if cleverly designed, with fast
computer logic might be able to remain unknown, and yet use
things like radio.

Bob Young





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 21

                               Disinformation

From: John Rimmer  <magonia@magonia.demon.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 19:26:36 +0000
Fwd Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 10:40:00 -0500
Subject: Disinformation


After reading recent postings about the Alien Autopsy and a few
other topics, I offer the following definition for the
Ufologists' Dictionary:

Disinformation: a hoax perpetrated on a ufologist who thinks
he's so smart that it takes the resources of an entire
government to fool him.

--

John Rimmer Magonia Magazine, a division of the P.L.A. Driftwood
International Cartel (Disinformation and Mayhem Division)
www.magonia.demon.co.uk







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 21

                          Re: Guilt By Association?

From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 15:20:40 +0000
Fwd Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 10:43:04 -0500
Subject: Re: Guilt By Association?


>From: Sean Jones <seanj@tedric.demon.co.uk>
>Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 20:13:58 +0000
>Fwd Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 02:41:39 -0500
>Subject: Guilt By Association?

Previously, Sean had written:

>As far as I know, ( I will stand corrected if someone can show
>me the evidence) the actual Alien Autopsy film has stood up to
>all the scrutiny but due to the extremely dubious way it was
>made public was immediately frowned upon by many big names in
>Ufology (capital U?). So straight away the smoking gun was cast
>into shadow.

Hi Sean,

To my knowledge, there is no "smoking gun" in regard to the AA
film. Why? Because the only smoking gun would be the original AA
film, itself. Santilli flat refuses to release this for
examination by Bob Shell and other qualified professionals that
could bolster Santilli's claim. This makes no sense and accounts
for "the extremely dubious way it was made public". Obviously,
this information SHOULD be taken into account when deciding the
validity of the AA footage and Santilli's claims, since Santilli
offers nothing else to judge him by.

And let's be clear about this:

This isn't a case like the mysterious Dr Reed where the 'alien
body' was stolen from his home. This isn't the flying saucer
that got away before it could be photographed. This isn't a case
of abduction where you only have the victim's faint memories to
build a story.

Santilli has the actual film in his possession, so there's no
excuse.

Regarding the footage itself; I think it's a joke. I've said so
in many postings on this list and have outlined exactly why I
believe it to be fake. Are my opinions "proof"? No, they're not.
On the other hand, I'm not required to provide proof, Santilli
is. The fact that he won't even take steps within his power to
help himself is, in fact, "evidence" that chips away at the
"scrutiny" you mention above.

Finally, Sean asked:

>I wonder is it time to take a vote people? All those who believe
>the AA genuine hold your hands up, OK now all you who think its
>fake hold your hands up.

I do not believe the AA footage is fake simply because the tent
footage is known to be fake. The AA footage should be considered
fake until Santilli offers the proof that only he has in his
possession.

Roger Evans





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 21

                       Re: R.A.M.S. - A Parting Shot?

From: Robert A. M. Stephens <sti3818@montana.com>
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 13:19:36 +0000
Fwd Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 10:49:12 -0500
Subject: Re: R.A.M.S. - A Parting Shot?


>Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 03:27:49 -0600
>From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: R.A.M.S. - A Parting Shot?


>No sir -- you did not. You trotted out the old, and very
>competently discredited, NASA excuse.

>>On four radio shows and in 9 email posts-detailed dissertations.
>>STS-48, STS-80, = frozen ejecta from on orbit vehicles.

>. . . And Dr. Haines, Dr. Kasher, and (I believe) Stanton
>Friedman reduced your "frozen ejecta" to bull ejecta. Moreover,
>your "9 email posts-detailed dissertations" detailed bupkus. Who
>are you, really?


Had you paid any attention at any time, I stated catagorically I
would bring the whole tape of STS-48 and 80 to the U and Omaha
to any of these 'experts' an challenge their 10 dollar per book
ripoff analysis, for free, and show them what they are seeing.
They refused. At least with Kasher's school.

I'll challenge anyone with the color tape of the full sequence.
I see this stuff everyday. If you want UFOs, fine---UFOS in the
mission tapes everywhere. Great. What could that crazy NASA
know.

You are as the rest. See whatever you like in the fuzzy B & W
tape. Its hopeless anyway. Dr. Kasher and rest are welcome to
distort reality all they wish.  They are the problem then, not I
or NASA. I have a right to make that claim as much as you 'want'
to see UFOs in the mission tapes. I say you're in error. You
call me names. Super. Get the color tapes from JSC and then you
decide.


Robert A.M. Stephens
NASA Documentation Program
Stillwater Mills
Contractor-Aerospace
406-745-3818
sti3818@montana.com
http://198.116.116.10/gallery/arts/samples.html






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 21

                       Re: Military Retirees & Secrecy

From: "Bob Shell" <bob@bobshell.com>
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 15:33:06 +0000
Fwd Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 10:53:42 -0500
Subject: Re: Military Retirees & Secrecy


>From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
>Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 09:17:48 +0000
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Military Retirees & Secrecy

>>From: Dave Vetterick <veterick@ix.netcom.com>
>>Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 20:14:13 -0600
>>Fwd Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 04:49:13 -0500
>>Subject: Re: Military Retirees & Secrecy

>>>From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
>>>Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 08:57:52 +0000
>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>>Subject: Military Retirees & Secrecy

>Previously, I had written:
>
>>"My father worked for a local TV station on the remote crew for
>>the better part of 45 years. He told me often how police
>>officers or government officials had confiscated field tapes
>>from his unit minutes after taping had been completed on some
>>story. These guys would arrive out of nowhere in the field and
>>descend on my dad's news truck. Sometimes a reason was given,
>>sometimes not. In every instance, my father was warned not to
>>resist."

Roger,

My father was a TV newsman until he retired. He signed on the
very first TV station in this area and was there nearly 40
years. Before that he was in Radio. He had the courage to cover
the UFO flaps in Wytheville, Virginia, just down the road from
here and went from skeptic to believer from interviewing
ordinary people who had very extra-ordinary experiences.

He was the newsman who dug up and broke the Frances Gary Powers
story when the Soviets shot him down in a U2 spy plane, and he
covered many other sensitive stories over the years.

I asked him about this story of yours and he said "Bull***t!"

Bob







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 21

                   Re: And The Truth Shall Set Its Fee...

From: Sean Jones <seanj@tedric.demon.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 18:21:56 +0000
Fwd Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 10:57:18 -0500
Subject: Re:  And The Truth Shall Set Its Fee...


>From: Sharon Kardol <sharon@hotmix.com.au>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: And The Truth Shall Set Its Fee...
>Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 18:09:37 +0800

>>Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 20:44:35 +0000
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>From: Sean Jones <seanj@tedric.demon.co.uk>
>>Subject: Re: And The Truth Shall Set Its Fee...

Hi Sharon

>Mr Jones (Sean, if you will),

Sean's ok :-)

>I was just curious how you could believe in God without being
>religious?  I always thought they were synonimous with each
>other.

Er, no. It's a bit like bacon and eggs. One assumes that one
goes with the other, visa versa, but the fact is belief in
Christ is faith, religion is what the _moron's_ (or is that
mormons? <g>) have added to it.

>Wouldn't you say it's not religion that has caused strife, but
>the morons (oh, I mean people) who interpret it "in their
>belief" to defend their "God" anyway possible?  Surely the image
>of religion has suffered (as everything in history does) at the
>desctructive hands of selfish humans.

The image of strife is twofold. One the Crusades, that should
speak volumes for human stupidity. Two, The Roman Catholic
Church. How on earth (please excuse the pun) can the church have
so much money yet many thousands of its patrons are literally
starving. Massive injustice/imbalance there if you ask me.

Yes I see your point about it being the people involved, not
actually the _religion_ but if you ask me you get nutters in
every walk of life, hey look at Ufology. But with the church,
the _religious nutters_ always seem to be welcomed with open
arms.

>I don't want to get into a long drawn out unwinnable arguement
>with anyone, just curious of your opinion.

Long drawn out replies r us :-) NOT!

Seriously, I would _never_ force my opinion on beliefs in
_whatever_ down anyone's throat, but I do like to make it clear,
occasionally, my position.

---
    In an infinite universe infinitely anything is possible.
                       Sean Jones
 Homepage--http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Zone/1745/index.htm
            UFO page--http://www.tedric.demon.co.uk/







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 21

                            Re: UFO Communication

From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net>
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 13:57:36 -0800
Fwd Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 11:00:41 -0500
Subject: Re: UFO Communication


>Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 19:59:12 +0800
>From: Cheyne Conrad <chyren23@q-net.net.au>
>Subject: Re: UFO Communication?

>>From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>Subject: Re: UFO Communication?

>>Dear Josh:

>><snipped discussion on possible UFO com methods>

>>"Telepathy", at least in the ESP sense does not appeal to me
>>for these purposes. The human brain simply doesn't have the
>>power ( watts ) the frequency nor the proper antennas.

>Presumably we're not talking about 'human brains', here. We
>don't know much about the guys who 'pilot' these UFOs, but
>we're pretty sure they aren't human.

Yes.

>Telepathy might be a very
>efficient and highly evolved communication method in some
>lifeforms, so efficient that they might not have ever needed
>'primitive' technological methods, such as radio or laser.

>C D Conrad

Dear CDC:

I could see an intelligent underwater species sending all sorts
of "telepathic" signals over short distances via the water
itself! For all we know, some Earth creatures do something
analogous already.

I merely wanted to set aside the mystical or spiritualistic
sorts of communication sometimes suggested by those so inclined.

None of this removes the possibility of a technology which might
be able to send "thoughts" or words directly into the auditory
or visual cortices of living beings .. bypassing the ears and
eyes.

I once read of profoundly deaf people who could perceive sounds
via high voltage probes attached to the foot and the head,
modulated by a specialized audio amplifier. Apparently it
excited what was left of the auditory nervous system.

Still, for distance communication (anything more than a few
meters say) something analogous to, but different from radio,
microwave or laser communication would seem to be the best bet
to me at least.

Best regards

- Larry Hatch









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 21

                       Re: R.A.M.S. - A Parting Shot?

From: Dave Ledger <dledger@cableinet.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 22:36:07 +0000
Fwd Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 11:05:40 -0500
Subject: Re: R.A.M.S. - A Parting Shot?


>Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 03:27:49 -0600
>From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: R.A.M.S. - A Parting Shot?

>>Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 17:32:35 +0000
>>From: Robert A. M. Stephens <sti3818@montana.com>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>Subject: Re: R.A.M.S. - A Parting Shot?

>>>Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 08:17:09 -0600
>>>From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: R.A.M.S. - A Parting Shot?

>><snip>

>>>Perhaps (?) -- but I would find your arguments more compellingly
>>>convincing if you would refrain from your encopric and
>>>unsettling digressions, for a moment, and answer those questions
>>>a few of us had regarding STS-48. <g>.

>>I did.

>No sir -- you did not. You trotted out the old, and very
>competently discredited, NASA excuse.

>>On four radio shows and in 9 email posts-detailed dissertations.
>>STS-48,  STS-80,  = frozen ejecta from on orbit vehicles.

>. . . And Dr. Haines, Dr. Kasher, and (I believe) Stanton
>Friedman reduced your "frozen ejecta" to bull ejecta. Moreover,
>your "9 email posts-detailed dissertations" detailed bupkus. Who
>are you, really?

>Lehmberg@snowhill.com

Dear Errol,Alfred, R.A.M.S and listmembers,

I have to agree with Alfred Lehmberg in the fact that Mr
Stephens did not and has not, answered all of the earlier
relevent questions relating to the anomalies in the STS shuttle
missions.

With Errols kind permission, I would like to repost some earlier
questions posed to Mr Stephens in the hope that we may get a
suitable detailed answer this time and not the usual predictable
answers we have all heard before. It seems to me after reading
Stephens's numerous posts to the List, that he seems
pre-occupied with retaliating to the likes of Richard Hoagland
and Art Bell etc. Why not address the serious issues worthy of
further research instead and cut out this pointless cat and
mouse game you seem to be playing with the List?

I would appreciate any response you may be able to provide Mr
Stephens, seeing as you are the one who claims to have all of
the inside knowledge etc. There are still too many questions
left unanswered relating to the Shuttle missions but you expect
us all to swallow your less than believable "frozen ejecta from
on orbit vehicles" explanation without any decent information to
back up these facts.

My previous questions posed to you follow below and I would
appreciate a little feedback this time if possible, or are you
simply more concerned with playing childish games with the likes
of Art Bell and Hoagland etc which will do nothing to further
any serious interest in the subject.

>Robert A. M. Stephens <sti3818@montana.com>wrote:

>6.  STS-48 and STS-80: That the questions posed regarding these
>two mission profiles is, in fact, ejecta from the orbiter
>spacecraft-(space shuttle), not UFOs hovering in the vicinity.

Mr Stephens, After reading your response to the above questions
regarding STS-48 and STS-80 missions. I find your explanation
very hard to agree with and it seems to fall far short of a
rational explanation.I am certainly no expert in this matter
which must be said but I have a few problems with your casual
dismissal of the Shuttle mission films which I will try to
explain.

First and foremost, I fail to see how you can possibly put all
of the anomalous objects, clearly seen in the STS-80 footage,
down to waste ejections from the shuttle and such-like. This is
absurd!   One of the objects in the footage seems to be very
large (main object) and does not behave in a manner consistent
with space junk or Ice. This large object appears to be under
some kind of intelligent control at least from what I can see.At
one point it seems that there are two additional objects which
seem to be on intercept/rendezvous type courses toward the large
main anomaly.(Space Junk?)  Also if it is indeed space junk and
ejected waste etc, why do all the objects seem to move at
different speeds?  Are they all caught in different thruster
blasts of different strengths? from different directions?
Perhaps you can clarify this point for me.

>That, in full view, RCS motor firing for 1.2 seconds
>(approximately) on the side of the orbiter is the apparent,
>misinterpreted observation of something, a ray, being fired from
>Earth's surface.

Ok, I take it this is the STS-48 mission we are talking about
here. My problem with this is that the alleged RCS motor
firing,(flash in bottom left corner of screen on clip) fires at
a particular angle,(say towards 1 o'clock) if that is what is in
the clip as you say. If this is indeed the case, then why does
the anomalous object leave the shot at a totally different angle
than that of the alleged thruster blast? (approximately 2-3
o'clock)  Surely if it was the thrust moving the ice/junk
whatever, the anomaly would have been blown in a similar path to
the alleged jet blast from the shuttle.The direction that the
anomaly leaves the shot from, suggests some kind of resistance
to the alleged thruster blast direction.Can space junk and Ice
do this?

Secondly, the anomalous object was also observed to change its
track again a second time, further out from Earth, which seems
to kick the RCS motor explanation into touch as far as I can
determine anyway.

Thirdly, when you touched upon the Shuttle missions in your
post, you did not even acknowledge the fact that there was more
than one anomalous episode connected to the STS-48 shuttle
mission.About 6 was it?

Also what was the anomalous object recorded on film,leaving
Earth at a high velocity on the STS-80 mission?  Too many
relevent questions left unanswered I think. What I can tell you
without being an expert in this field is that this particular
incident was definately NOT Ice or Ejecta', so what was it?

Well, thats it for now. I hope that you may respond so that we
may possibly put the anomalous Shuttle mission footage to rest
once and for all. I am sure that I am not alone when I say we
would love to hear more about the anomalous NASA shuttle footage
in question.

Thanks for your time Mr Stephens, That is if you care to respond
this time!

All the best to the list,

Sincerely

Dave Ledger (UFO Scotland)

--
================================================================
If you see someone without a smile.....give them one of yours :)
****************************************************************
Posted by: Dave Ledger  (mailto:UFOSCOT@cableinet.co.uk)
VISIT "UFO SCOTLAND" AT:
http://wkweb5.cableinet.co.uk/dledger/index.htm
UFO Scotland.
ICQ pager      http://wwp.mirabilis.com/4851425
****************************************************************
THE TRUTH IS JUST AROUND THE CORNER!................BUT HOW FAR?
================================================================

"The sands of time are trickling away from our dear mother Earth
and yet we continue to fight amongst ourselves and destroy our
natural enviroment,leaving all the mess for our children and
their children's children to inherit when we're gone."






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 21

                    Re: 'Rods' - On The Learning Channel

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 19:07:25 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 11:09:38 -0500
Subject: Re: 'Rods' - On The Learning Channel


>From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
>Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 15:52:32 +0000
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: 'Rods' - On The Learning Channel

>>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
>>Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 10:30:55 -0500
>>Fwd Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 13:05:08 -0500
>>Subject: Re: 'Rods' - On The Learning Channel

>>>From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
>>>Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 11:02:28 +0000
>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>

>>>From: Jose Escamilla <rods@rmi.net>
>>>Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 13:15:46 +030>0
>>>Fwd Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 15:57:23 >>annel>


Thanks for the message....

>Previously, Bruce wrote:

and, sorry for....

<snip>

>>Jose says his big test was to use the electronic zoom to zoom in
>>on the central section of a 6 ft long section of the ribbon
>>(marked by black lines?) from a distance of 100 ft. The angle
>>between the 6 ft marker was tan^-1(.06) = 3.4 degrees. His zoom
>>may have restricted the field of view even more. At any rate, he
>>would get the bolt in only 1 frame.

>Hey! I guessed right!<g>

Yup

>>His test showed overall
>>blur...perhaps not surprising. It should be compared with the
>>blur of the ribbon image. However, in any case, the motion smear
>>of the bolt was only about 1% of its length so any noticeable
>>blur was due to the camera/optical system and not the motion.>

>Hi Bruce,

>I could be wrong, but I think Jose implied that he was using the
>digital (as opposed to optical) zoom for maximum magnification.
>Would such "false" enhancement of the image size affect your
>calculations?

>Just curious....


Shouldn't make any difference in th calculations of how large
the image should be due to motion smear (about 1% longer than
its size when there was no motion). It was my impression that
the test here really was of the digital zoom....would it work
the way an optical zoom would?

Of course the digital zoom is "cursed" by the digitization which
sets a "minimum resolvable size" (pixel) at the focal plane.
This could explain why the zoomed image was (apparently)
blurredall around. (Looked at carefully I expect the edges of
the image actually woul have looked "blockish" or
"pixelized"..... made up of small square areas, each being an
image pixel.

No doubt about it: optical zoom is superior (if the optics are
good).

Note for the interested: use your paint program of any version
and look at a .bmp or .gif or some other format picture. When
the picture completely fits on th screen it looks "good." The
pixels are too small to be (easily) resolved by the (typical)
eyeball. No start blowing it up (use the "magnifying glass:"
symbol or the zoom). With enough blowup you will eventually see
that th picture is made up of square areas and within each area
the color and brightness are constant. The color and brightness
will change from on area to the next at the edges of objects.
This zoom done on the computer is comparable to the electronic
zoom in videocameras.





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 21

                       Re: Military Retirees & Secrecy

From: Ed Fouche <fouche@connecti.com>
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 19:12:21 -0600
Fwd Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 11:12:44 -0500
Subject: Re: Military Retirees & Secrecy


>Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 11:20:16 -0800
>From: Susan Watson <susanwatson@earthlink.net>
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Re: Military Retirees & Secrecy

>[Non Subscriber Post]

>I have been following the postings on this thread with great
>interest as I am the daughter of the referred-to officer. My
>brother and I did not know the specific details of our Dad's
>duties when we were young, but as all children do we heard and
>observed what transpired within our home. It was not until later
>in our lives that we became fully aware of the depth of his
>involvement.

My hat is off to you and your father.

Well stated Susan!

Edgar Fouche
Web: http://fouchemedia.com





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 21

                       Re: RAMS - Cleanup The Corners

From: Michael Christol <mchristo@mindspring.com>
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 19:34:09 -0600
Fwd Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 11:15:27 -0500
Subject: Re: RAMS - Cleanup The Corners


>Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 02:46:16 +0000
>From: Robert A. M. Stephens <sti3818@montana.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: RAMS - Cleanup The Corners

>I am not aware of a problem at this time. I do not lie except to
>call my myself a fraud only to find that others have taken to
>task this and have found I am not a fraud.

First of all, let me say, that I have stayed out of this thing
since you made your first posts. I know that there are always
those "vultures" who sit atop dead tree limbs, and "wait" for
their victim to come along, so they can pounce on them for a
free meal...

Well sir, If I can believe what I have been reading lately, you
have turned the tables on the "vultures," and have actually
devoured them...<G>

I am not trying to "suck up," but I would like to know more
about you, if you are up to sharing it...and if you wish to do
so, off the mail list, it will be fine.

I don't know if you have followed any of the threads I have
posted on or not, but some of them were pretty weak, from my
knowledge expression viewpoint...<g> In other words, some of the
time I was ill prepared to make such a post and should have
thought it out better. But, I contend that my basic premis's
were correct. However, I will not argue the case with anyone.
They are entitled to view reality in their own way...

>I've never had professional help. However, with this culture
>online I feel this is a very strong possibility.

Ha, ha, ha...I like that...We are talking to the Politically
Correct Intellectualistic yuppies in this mail list, for the
most part. Don't get me wrong...There are some very good people
in here, and they know who they are...but then there is the
other group, mentioned above as well...I doubt they know who
they are...ha, ha, ha..

>I fail to make the correlation that I am a 'dude'. I do not
>dress in formal attire, generally.

You sound like an outdoorsman...also like Stephen Spielburg or
in the same mold..theoretically speaking.... ;-)

REgards, Mike

http://www.mindspring.net/~mchristo/






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 21

                 Israeli UFO Explosion - It's The Real Thing

From: Moderator, UFO UpDates - Toronto
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 11:34:36 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 11:34:36 -0500
Subject: Israeli UFO Explosion - It's The Real Thing





SIGHTINGS


Israeli Mid-Air UFO Explosion Analyzed - It's The Real Thing
by Barry Chamish
<chamish@netvision.net.il>

1-20-99

Last month I reported that I had acquired a video copy of a
mid-air UFO explosion over the Israeli city of Rosh Haayin. I
wrote that my impression was the video captured a profoundly
important moment: the first mid-air UFO collision ever recorded.
I requested that experts analyze the film scientifically. Within
a day, Dwight Connelly of MUFON committed himself to having the
video analyzed. The video is a compilation of two UFO events
recorded by Spasso Maximovitch in 1995 and 1996. I sent Dwight
both clips and he passed them on to MUFON's video expert Jeff
Sanio for computer analysis. The following is his report. I will
not comment on his conclusions. Jeff has no need of my analysis
of his analysis. Let's just sum matters up like this: It's The
Real Thing. Added to Israel's list of UFO firsts, is the first
mid-air explosion between two unexplained aerial craft ever
captured on videotape or any other media. Several film and TV
producers asked me to release the clip for their programs but I
had to turn them down. I am prevented by a copyright problem
from reproducing the film, though I am permitted to display my
copy. I am seeking a conference to premiere this remarkable
event. In the meantime, I will publish MUFON's full report on
http://members.tripod.com/~ufoisrael.

TEXT OF THE MUFON REPORT:

Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 23:39:44 -0800
From: Jeff Sainio <jsainio@execpc.com
Reply-To: jsainio@qgraph.com
To: chamish@netvision.net.il
Subject: my report

I left out the stills from the video, as you've already seen them.
The paper copy has already been sent.

Dwight Connelly
14026 Ridgelawn
Martinsville IL
62442

1-16-99
217-382-4502,4014
Videoanalysis
6/24/96
Rosh Haayin, central Israel
Spasso Maximovitch


Events as reported to me from Barry Chamish
(chamish@netvision.net.il): `On 28/9/95, Spasso Maximovitch
noticed an unexplainable object in the skies over Rosh Haayin in
central Israel. He grabbed his video camera and captured a
silvery, glowing object become, two, three and then four fiery
orbs, in a near square formation, over a wide expanse of the
northwestern sky. After this incident, Mr. Maximovitch became a
constant skywatcher. His dilgence was rewarded on 24/6/96 when a
similar silvery orb appeared in the lower western sky. He
trained his video camera on the orb... And then a glowing white
oval-shaped object appeared some 20 degrees west of the object
and streaked toward it at high speed. Within three seconds it
struck the stationary orb, causing a huge explosion in the sky
which must have destroyed both objects. Stunned, Maximovitch
stopped filming immediately after capturing the explosion.`

The submitted video, which was in PAL format, was converted to
NTSC format. It shows several events; a group of lights, one
apparently dropped from another (the dropping is seen in the
stills marked 28/9/1995 and 3:27:33); a stationary light which
is apparently struck by a moving light, and a triangle of
lights. The group of lights is interesting, but I could find no
basis for investigating any form of anomalousness. The triangle
of lights has no reference objects to indicate what or where it
is.

The stationary light was much more interesting. Various lights,
probably streetlights, in the video were used as reference
objects, and showed that the light was stationary over some 30
seconds. An approaching airplane's landing lights will appear
stationary, although motionlessness over this length of time
seems unusual.

A vertical tower structure, apparently made of girders, is near
the light. Some horizontal structure is atop the structure. It
was not sufficiently defined for continuous measurements to be
made from it.

Another bright object appears to the left and slightly below the
stationary object. In 2.9 seconds, it moves toward the
stationary object, apparently hitting and exploding. In 1/4
second, the explosion disappears with no trace of either object.
The 5-frame sequence to the right illustrates the sequence.

The bright object can be seen to move between the girders of the
vertical structure. This is useful in determining the relative
size of the moving light. (The size of the light as seen on the
video, is misleading; it is presumably much smaller than what is
seen, due to extreme overexposure and glare.) The light
disappears or reappears completely 6 times; in 3, the change is
abrupt; completely bright-to-dark or vice versa. In the other 3,
the change is gradual, with a frame showing partial brightness.
What can be learned from this? One must remember that the video
is a sequence of 1/50 second time exposures. Assume the light is
small, and that the moving object has only one light. If by
chance, the disappearance coincides with the period between
exposures, an abrupt disappearance will be seen. A large light,
or several lights horizontally separated, will never disappear
abruptly while moving slowly. Since 6 occurrences form a useful
population of samples, the moving light can reliably be said to
be quite small. This probably eliminates the flame from a
missile as a source.

Although the vertical structure was not a reliable reference
object, the two lights' relative position could be measured.
Over 500 measurements of the two lights' position were made. The
graph at right shows the distance between the 2 lights. Breaks
in the data line are due to unreliable data from camera motion
or the moving light going behind the girders. Reference straight
lines show constant speed. The slopes of the lines show that the
moving light spent about a second at some speed, then sped up
about 16% before the collision. The 16% is not due to a zoom
change; the tower is sufficiently visible to verify that its
size does not appreciably change. Although the graph shows noise
and missing data, the acceleration certainly occurred in under a
second. No reasonable object I know of is capable of a 16%
acceleration in a second.

When the 2 objects apparently collide and explode, the apparent
size of the light expands by a factor of roughly 2.5; this does
not appear to be due to overexposure, but is the real size of
the object. The last 2 frames of the video are NOT overexposed,
but diffuse; since overexposure is not involved, this indicates
the actual size of the explosion is shown. The real increase in
size of the bright area is certainly much larger than 2.5. In
the video the explosion moves downward; this is probably due to
camera motion of the startled videographer; the reference tower
is too smeared to verify this conclusion.

The explosion is not due to any conventional method I am
familiar with; conventional, large explosions require much more
than 1/4 second to disappear, and usually generate flaming
debris that falls from the explosion. Neither characteristic is
seen here.

The acceleration, light size, and explosion are not explainable
in any convention way that I know of, and this case remains
unidentified.



Jeff Sainio
MUFON Staff Photoanalyst
7206 W. Wabash
Milwaukee WI 53223-2609
jsainio@qgraph.com







SIGHTINGS HOMEPAGE





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 21

              Re: Government To Protect Us From Space Creatures

From: Patricia Mason <pmason@ee.net>
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 20:35:36 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 11:39:23 -0500
Subject: Re: Government To Protect Us From Space Creatures


>From: Fabrizio Monaco <F.Monaco@stm.it>
>Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 12:58:49 +0100
>Fwd Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 11:17:40 -0500
>Subject: Re: Government To Protect Us From Space Creatures

>So how can US government claim to plan to protect earth
>from extraterrestrial microbes?

A good source of information is the Astrobiology Web

http://www2.astrobiology.com/astro/protection.html

NASA has been working on the problem for years as far as
bringing back samples is concerned. What they are doing about
possible alien implants being removed from people who are
already here is anybody's guess. See also the links listed below
and good luck finding anything about UFOs!


NASA's Exobiology Branch:

http://www-space.arc.nasa.gov/ssx/ssx.html

"The Exobiology Branch conducts research in Exobiology seeking
to increase our knowledge of the origin, evolution, and
distribution of life in the universe."


NASA Astrobiology Institute:

http://weboflife.arc.nasa.gov:8080/nai/index.html

"Astrobiology is the study of life in the universe. This
cross-disciplinary field addresses many fundamental questions
concerning the origin, distribution, and future of life in the
universe. As we approach the new millennium, we find that many
of these questions are within our reach, and important new
insights are likely to result as space-age technology is applied
to biological research. The Astrobiology Institute represents
one of several NASA initiatives in astrobiology, with a special
charter to develop new institutional relationships that will
nurture and promote astrobiology research and training into the
future."

The site has a forum and an Ask an Astrobiologist page. That
could be fun, eh? I find it very interesting that on the links
page is a link to The National Institute for Discovery Science
(NIDS)

http://www.accessnv.com/nids

No mention of UFOs but a link to NIDS. What does that mean?


Search NASA:

http://www.nasa.gov/search/index.html

"Search the NASA web from one place! This new service allows you
to easily search through hundreds of thousands of documents
published on NASA web sites."

Pat






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 21

               'Military Insider' Claims He Saw Humanoids And

From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@get2net.dk>
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 03:07:35 +0100 (MET)
Fwd Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 11:42:08 -0500
Subject: 'Military Insider' Claims He Saw Humanoids And


Source: The current issue of Flying Saucer Review
(Vol 43 No.3),

http://www.corpex.com/users/archmage/fsr/fsrart35.htm

Stig

***

A Major Secret: A Member Of The U.S. Armed Forces
Tells Of "Chupacabras" And Humanoids Captured In
1960.

By Jorge Mart=EDn,
Editor of EVIDENCIA OVNI, and FSRConsultant.

Translation from Spanish by Gordon Creighton
from EVIDENCIA OVNI No. 10, 1996.

Confidential Revelations From A Former Member Of A
Top-Secret U.S. Army Unit Specialising In Recovery Of
Ufo'S And Capture Of Alien Entities.

*

[In a recent issue, FSR 43/1, I gave an article by Jorge Mart=EDn
relating the top-secret revelations of an American Army Officer.
(Operation Curtain: Joint Military Exercises with Aliens?) It is
evident that Se=F1or Mart=EDn has very good contacts in these
important military quarters, and here is another report, from a
different U.S. Army Officer, that will also give you plenty to
think about! -Editor of FSR.]

We were recently contacted confidentially by a source who at
present still prefers to remain "anonymous" for reasons relating
to his own security, and who gave us certain infomation
apparently linking the mysterious "chupacabras", now plaguing
Puerto Rico, with....Roswell! This person approached us after
hearing one of our radio programmes on the Notiuno Channel at
10.30 pm on Thursdays.

Employing the pseuodonym of "Don Ernesto", this U.S. Officer,
now aged 70, offered to tell us what he knew about the
"chupacabras", which he says are linked with the UFO Phenomenon,
but -so he claims- are not offensive towards humans!

Initially he was extremely cautious in his approach, emphasising
that he had worked for U.S. Intelligence in very delicate and
classified matters, and that, were his contact with us
discovered, he would be " likely to face very difficult and
dangerous moments."

Finally, however, after considerable indirect contact, we were
able to meet with him in a public place in our capital, San
Juan, where our respective credentials might be exchanged, and
his revelations to us might begin.

Speaking with very great care, and carefully choosing his words,
he was able to satisfy us as to his identity, and also as the
nature of his past services.

He began as follows: "I=92ve been listening to your programmes for
quite some time, and I can see that you are a brave man, for
there is a lot of danger in all this UFO business, and I see
that you are the only who that dares to discuss things. But you
have got to be very, very careful.

"There are certain areas of the Government that don=92t want these
matters known. I know because I=92ve worked in Military
Intelligence myself, with a very high security grading, and I=92ve
been involved with some things that I now rather wish I hadn=92t,
and that I can=92t discuss with you."

His features as he spoke were grave and pensive, and I can only
say that if what he was telling me was faked, then he was a very
good actor. He went on to say that the whole UFO business was
now badly out-of-control and was creating a climate of hysteria;
and that some sort of statement from the U.S. Government was
long overdue in his opinion, and in the opinions of some of his
colleagues.

And, in particular, he was worried about the general panic in
Puerto Rico about the "chupacabras", which he said are of no
danger to humans, whether adults or children.

We asked how he knew this, and he said he knew because he had
seen them, that the creatures are extraterrestrials, and that
the U.S. Government is fully aware of it.

He said his first knowledge of these matters went back to 1960,
and his words were as follows:- "I was stationed at Fort Sill in
Oklahoma, and I and other personnel boarded an aircraft there,
and were taken to Roswell Base in New Mexico, touching down en
route at Wichita Falls. And at Roswell we saw the creatures in
sort of cages. I don=92t know exactly whether we were on the main
Roswell Base or not, but anyway, it was close near there. (
About the alleged Roswell Crash in 1947 I know nothing -that was
13 years earlier. )

"One of the entities that I saw there was similar to what was
later shown in the TV film about the Roswell Crash, though
certain of its features were different."

When we asked him how the features differed, he replied that
what he had seen in the cage at Roswell "was taller -about 6 ft.
high, with very tiny ears. Like humans; it had a very fine,
thin, velvety sort of down as hair. And it had a friendly,
benevolent gaze, with sad-looking, dispirited eyes, as though
lost, a stranger, and asking for something, or waiting to talk,
but as though nobody could understand
it."................................

*

For the rest of this extraordinary story, see the current issue,
vol. 43/3.

Here is a picture of Jorge and Marleen Martin outside their home
in Puerto Rico.

=A9Flying Saucer Review Library of Congress copyright FSR
Publications, Ltd. 1981. Contributions appearing in this
magazine do not necessarily reflect its policy and are published
without prejudice.

Gordon Creighton (Editor FSR)





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 21

                Re: Government Planning To Protect Earth From

From: Greg St. Pierre <StrmNut@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 21:03:13 EST
Fwd Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 11:43:38 -0500
Subject: Re: Government Planning To Protect Earth From


>From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@get2net.dk>
>Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 05:39:46 +0100 (MET)
>Subject: Government Planning To Protect Earth From Space Creatures
>To: updates@globalserve.net

>WASHINGTON - The government is making plans for the first time
>in three decades to protect Earth from potentially dangerous
>extraterrestrial life forms.


Awfully nice of them. I'd rather have them focus their efforts
on protecting us from...oh, I dunno....ballistic missles with
freshly improved (thanks to us) guidance systems.

Maybe I'm just being narrow minded.

Greg






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 21

              Re: Government To Protect Us From Space Creatures

From: Greg St. Pierre <StrmNut@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 21:33:12 EST
Fwd Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 11:52:59 -0500
Subject: Re: Government To Protect Us From Space Creatures


>Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 12:58:49 +0100
>From: Fabrizio Monaco <F.Monaco@stm.it>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: Government To Protect Us From Space Creatures


>The question is: how can we fight against unknown viruses? We
>are talking about extraterrestrial microbes and i think that
>nobody had never seen or analyzed an extraterrestrial microbe
>before isn't it?

Hi Fabrizio,

And good questions they are. If I may put them into perspective
with an antidote....er, anecdote:

I was in a doctors office a few days ago. I chanced to notice a
sign on the door while waiting the prerequisite half-hour
between nurse and doctor appearances. The sign indicated that
flu shots were now being dispensed, and would I care for one?

When the doctor entered (yup, half an hour exactly) I mentioned
the sign, and asked how one inoculates against a virus that is
not the same virus from one week to the next. He proceeded to
explain that flu shots were pretty much placebos and nothing
more. He further explained that they had no way of knowing if
patients avoided the flu by luck or through the inoculation, and
therefore any results could not be verified. "It's also a dandy
way for the hospital to pick up a few extra bucks," I mused
silently.

Anyway, my point is that they can't even get the most prolific
virus in the world to fall in line, what makes anyone think they
can fight a completely alien bug/germ/microbe/disease/nasty
thing? Sounds like someone's looking for funding, and a nice
cover story is being floated.

Greg





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 21

                            Re: 'Mail On Sunday'

From: James Easton <pulsar@compuserve.com>
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 21:51:58 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 11:58:06 -0500
Subject: Re: 'Mail On Sunday'


Regarding...

>Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 04:48:39 +0000
>From: Philip Mantle <el51@dial.pipex.com>
>Subject: 'Mail On Sunday'


Philip wrote:

>Does anyone have a spare copy of the 'tent footage' expose in
>last weeks Mail On Sunday.

Philip,

There's an html'd version of the article with published
photographs, including a 'tent footage' frame showing the
'security codes', on my web site at:

http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/pulsar/mail_os.htm


It's now obvious that the 'security codes' are ridiculous and
apparently written in chalk. I understand the 'board' they are
written on was the cover from part of a drum kit.

Keith Bateman claims that when they first showed the film to
Ray, he said it should have a 'restricted notice' on it. They
then superimposed these infamous 'security codes' and returned
the film to him.

This would explain why there were two copies of the 'tent
footage', only one of which had the 'security codes'.

Interesting that the bogus 'security codes', which Nick asked
about at my request, were apparently simply made up by Elliot,
the technician who played the part of a 'doctor'.

Yet the 'notice' says "Subject 1 of 2" and Ray then produced
film of two 'autopsied aliens'. Similarly, the 'barn footage'
had 'President Truman', albeit the local farmer in a scarecrow's
coat, and the 'alien autopsy' story also featured claims of
Truman being present.

The only evidence was of course the 'Truman reel' which
allegedly couldn't be processed as the film was 'stuck
together'.


If Ray did pay them to stop promoting the 'tent footage' as
their own 'alien autopsy', then he must presumably have known
the true origins of this film.


That aside, it would be helpful if you could comment on the
following extract from an interview you with gave to Rebecca
Schatte, I believe in January of 1996:

RS: Phil, have you seen in a film canister, the presumed
celluloid copy of the tent footage, with your own eyes or were
you just told that he has it?

PM: No, I have seen it myself.

RS: O.K., have you held it up to the light, have you seen a body
or frames that look real?

PM: No, I haven't seen the one that's got the autopsy on it, but
I have seen the film that has the tent scene and also at the
same time, I removed, figuratively, I didn't cut it off, and I
noted the edge code, because Ray Santilli made a great deal
about the edge codes, so I noted it on the film and I drew it
myself and it was the proper edge code.

RS: It is my understanding that the tent footage does show a
body, is that correct?

PM: It does indeed. Do you want me to describe what it shows?

RS: Yes, but please answer this first; when you looked at the
celluloid film and you noted that it had the proper edge code
did you hold any portion of it up to the light in order to
determine that it had frames that contained the body on that
film?

PM: No, no I did not.

[...]

RS: Would you say that on this film the faces of the people
facing the camera are clear enough that they can be identified?

PM: Absolutely, if the original was released. Bear in mind that
this was the first piece of film that Ray Santilli showed to me
before the autopsy had been shown and so on. And it was on that
evidence that I tried to persuade Ray Santilli to speak at our
conference last August, which he eventually did. If I thought to
myself, "fake or genuine", I had no idea and I still don't, but
there is a slim chance that somebody, somewhere would be able to
recognize the faces and on my copy, which I said is several
generations old, the faces aren't all that clear, but on the
original material Ray Santilli has you can clearly make out
there faces and I'm sure if it was released, round the world, in
whatever format, there is a remote possibility that could be
identified. The man with his back to the camera, you don't ever
see his face, so therefore there is no possibility of that, but
the other two people most definitely.

RS: There was approximately two minutes or so of tent footage
sold to broadcasters when they purchased the other rights to the
film. It was never shown because it was in too poor of
condition, but on a videotape, that is obviously is a bootleg
that Stanton Friedman and Chuck Harder in the US are selling,
there is footage like you describe; however, there appears to be
black blobs that have been superimposed over the heads of the
people. Your tape does not have these blobs?

PM: Not at all. You can see the faces of the people. As I
pointed out, on the copy that Ray Santilli has it is... you can
make them out even clearer, very clear indeed. It is very poor
quality, I mean it looks like it is out of, uhm a gas lamp is
illuminating it or a very low watt lamp of some kind that is
perhaps generated by a gas generator outside or a petrol
generator or whatever. It is poor illuminated. You have to
remember this--it is not like the other material that has been
released. But it is clear enough to make out their faces, no
question about that.

RS: This clearer version that Ray Santilli showed you, was that
what he showed you first or how did you come about seeing the
clear footage?

PM: Yes, he showed it to me and I also saw it many, many months
later when were at a meeting with Union Pictures in London. They
made the Roswell Incident documentary here for Channel 4 and we
met with them and the commissioning editors of Channel 4 with
Ray Santilli and a colleague of his called Chris Cary. They
showed the autopsy first and everybody watched it intently and
then Ray showed them the tent footage and because it was not
graphic in detail, everybody just ignored it, but I watched it
yet again. To me it is more important than the autopsy because
you can see the people's faces, but a lot of people seemed to
have missed the point. [End]


As we now know, that point was significant and resulted in
welcome clarification about the true origins of this film.

What about the "celluloid copy of the tent footage", you
referred to.

As you noted not having actually seen any frames from the 'tent
footage' on the reel you saw, were you simply told that this
reel of film contained the 'tent footage'?



James.
E-mail: pulsar@compuserve.com





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 21

                          Re: Guilt By Association?

From: Sharon Kardol <sharon@hotmix.com.au>
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 11:41:05 +0800
Fwd Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 12:01:04 -0500
Subject: Re: Guilt By Association?


>Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 03:11:50 -0800
>From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Guilt By Association?

>>Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 20:13:58 +0000
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>From: Sean Jones <seanj@tedric.demon.co.uk>
>>Subject: Guilt By Association?

>>With the "Tent Footage" fully debunked by Tim and Phil, the
>>Alien Autopsy must also be fake/hoaxed/bogus purely because it
>>came from the same mill does it not?

>>I wonder is it time to take a vote people? All those who
>>believe the AA genuine hold your hands up, OK now all you who
>>think its fake hold your hands up.

>Dear Sean:

>My hand is up. I think its fake.

Count me in Larry.  My arms in a sling but it's in the air, in
spirit.

Cheers
SharonK





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 21

                           Re: UFO Communication?

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 23:07:58 EST
Fwd Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 12:15:44 -0500
Subject: Re: UFO Communication?


>From: Mark Cashman <mcashman@ix.netcom.com>
>Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 20:09:34 -0500
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: UFO Communication?

>>Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 00:57:41 -0800
>>From: Josh Goldstein <clearlt@pacbell.net>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>Subject: UFO Communication?

>>All the past discussion of SETI and alien communication has
>>brought me to pose a question. How do UFOs communicate?

>>If they communicate using the electromagnetic
>>spectrum why can't that be detected and perhaps interpreted?

>>If the flying triangles are terrestrial in origin I assume we
>>would be able to detect many scrambled radio messages. Why don't

Mark, Josh, List, Entities lurking..... I would like to respond,
point by point to your post, Mark....

>Of course, all of the following represents nothing more than
the >rankest speculation, but I think these are some of the
>alternatives:

As do my comments.... which are strictly opinions based on the
moon's waxing gibbeous phase, only!

>1) UFOs do not communicate with each other or with any bases.
>Either there is a strict rule to preclude such communication or
>there is no need for them to communicate (perhaps because they
>are strictly independent).

Doubtfull, as it is necessary to coordinate the various
activities of the various craft such as, abduction, fly by
shootings, attempts at psyching out the military, SR 765/F99/G2
pursuit, salute and strategic aircraft chaser needling.... these
guys like to kid around you know!

>2) UFOs use small UFOs (such as BOL (Balls of Light)) to
>communicate, much like carrier pigeons.

Uh, how does a carrier pidgeon communicate.  I for one, having
had a number of experiences, never heard any pidgeon sounds...
or even anything remotely resembling a "coo-ing" sound!  I have
heard beeping sounds, but not one coo...

>3) UFOs use analog radio of low strength, transmit infrequently,
>and rely on specific frequency schedules and burst transmissions
>to avoid detection.

Everyone knows that UFOs use digital transmission.  It is more
modern than analog.  And EBE's are ultra modern guys.  You don't
gotta have a PhD to see that.

>4) UFOs use digital radio of low strength and transmit digital
>packets. Such packets are unlikely to be easily detected, and
>since they are emitted from a very high speed airborne source,
>they are typcially eliminated by ELINT (Electronic Intelligence)
>systems as spurious, especially since to an unknowing observer,
>their content makes them appear to be noise. Such packets could
>contain encrypted linguistic content, video content of unknown
>aspect ratio, or some other more exotic form of communication.

Repeating... digital, but not necessarily radio... and packets
are not likely being used.  I have never seen one packet in any
of my experiences... uh, needles, body fluid extracting
gizmoids, metal like probes stuck up my nose, and sometimes,
peepee tools designed to ... uh ... get it on, eh?  But not one
packet.  Altho I did see something that looked like a squar-ish
vest-like thing on one of them turkeys... almost like a bullet
proof vest.  But it had no pockets or packets.

I do agree with the exotic forms to which you referred in your
last sentence, but the clothing worn by every single EBE had not
even ONE piece of lint on it.  These are VERY neat duds,
dudes... whatever.

>5) UFOs use lasers for point to point communications and do not
>broadcast at all. Interception would require the interposition
>of a receiver in the signal path, and the chances of this are
>small.

Lasers? Aimed at what and how are they aimed?  Not likely in
my opinion anyway.  How does the one UFO know where to aim
the laser with which to modulate the beam.... and then what
method of modulation is used?  AM, FM, FSK, CW?  See
what I mean?  This is getting freaky, eh?

>6) UFOs use an exotic communications medium such as gravity or
>quantum particles, or exploit some unknown principle of quantum
>simultaneity to transmit information.

Probably very likely. If not gravity or quantum particles,
something just as exotic.

>We know that UFOs emit radio signals, and that these signals are
>sometimes noisy and sometimes actually have a form which is
>similar to that of earthly transmissions. I refer you to the
>article in Clark's UFO Encyclopedia, written by Sparks, on the
>RB47 case for an example of this. For most detection of radio
>frequency signals from UFOs, observers report that detection as
>interference with existing radio equipment or as static. This
>would suggest such radio emissions are broad in their frequency
>profile. However, such observations also usually suggest a
>limited range. Some researchers tend to interpret the
>interference / noise output as emissions which are a side-effect
>of the generation of luminosity by the UFO - a phenomenon which
>suggests such mechanisms as X-ray or UV excitation of the
>atmosphere, or the injection of electrons into the near surface
>area of the UFO. Obviously, such mechanisms would tend to
>suppress many frequencies of radio transmission and would tend
>to devalue the use of radio frequencies for communication.

I have been a ham for... uh, 41 years.  I have often been quite
bored while waiting to be probed on one of those flying saucers.
I have thought to myself, "Gee, wouldn't it be nice to have a
portable ham radio rig on this thing while I waited to be milked
for my body's juices?"

Maybe that's what that QRM (interference/noise) is... just some
ham who managed to smuggle a DX-40 and an ARC 5 on board during
one of his abductions, eh?

>We also know that UFOs emit light rays, and sometimes these
>connect one object to another. We also know that UFOs sometimes
>use their external lighting for communication with witnesses,
>and may appear to be using it for communication with another
>object.

>Some of the methods suggested above would remain undetectable by
>current technologies, some would require a concerted effort by
>an ELINT organization such as the NSA, and some have already
>been reported. What to make out of all of this is uncertain.

>If you are interested in cases of radio interference / signals,
>I refer you to the on-line Project 1947 EM Effects catalog:

Actually, I have a better suggestion.  Get yourself a ham radio
rig and tune in on the 80 meter band, CW portion during the peak
sunspot cycle.  And try to sort out even ONE signal from the
racket... packet, whatever... go ahead, just try!

And I do wish you would stop talking about lint all the time.  I
told you these guys are very neat!

Dr. Gesundt, UFO Ex-Spurt..





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 21

                  Oppenheimer & Einstien - 'New' MJ-12 Doc

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 12:04:11 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 12:16:02 -0500
Subject: Oppenheimer & Einstien - 'New' MJ-12 Doc


Here is my analysis/comment on the "Celestrial " document:


COMMENTS ON AND QUESTIONS ABOUT DOCUMENT #1
in the Wood & Wood Collection
by Bruce Maccabee

Document #1:
Einstein/Oppenheimer: RELATIONSHIPS WITH INHABITANTS
OF CELESTRIAL (sic) BODIES

Note: it will be easier to understand some of my comments in the
following if you realize that there have been identified "UFO"
documents which were partially based, word for word, on real
documents. The real documents were modified by the addition of
UFO-related terminology. Also various "caveats" (security
markings) have been added (such as "majic") to make them look as
if they were part of a highly classified study of UFOs, etc.


1) Did E have a TS clearance (we know he had a clearance from
the Navy for torpedo explosive (?) work). He did not work on
"the bomb." I am only aware of the following open literature
association between E and UFOS: someone asked (1952, 53?) what
he thought people were seeing when they reported flying saucers.
He responded "they must be seeing something" or something like
that.

2) Why Einstein? What did he know about international law of
territorial occupation or colonization or relationships between
us and "estraterrestrial men?" Same question for Oppenheimer.

3) Why June, 1947 as "draft" date? the implication is that by
June 1947 it was well accepted by a some people (including E and
O) that ETs were real, flying around, and might communicate.
Where is there independent evidence that saucer reality was
accepted on a high level BEFORE July, 1947?

4) Celestrial? (sp)

5) The first paragraph seems self-contradictory: "Relationships
with (ETs) presents (sic) no bascially(sic) new problem (for)
international law...", yet, "confronting intelligent" non-human
beings "would bring up problems whose solution is difficult to
conceive." So which is it, a piece of (international law) cake,
or "too hard to do?"

6) The third paragraph says that a first condition is that they
should have human-like psychology. What if they don't meet that
condition? We give up?

7) What guidlines in the Pentateuch? (guidelines for
interactions between nation-states?) Guidelines for occupying
territory?

8) Paragraph 5 clarified (I hope): "If these intelligent beings
were in possession of a more or less (sic) culture, (sic) and a
more or less perfect political organization, (then (1)) they
would have an absolute right to be recognized as independent and
sovereign peoples, (2) we would have to come to an agreement
with them to establish the legal regulations upon which future
relationships should be based, (sic) and (3) it would be
necessary to accept many of their principles."

You know what this sounds like? It sounds like a discussion of
how to interact with the aborigines (native peoples) of a
country. Imagine someone in the 1600's or 1700's writing about
how to deal with the American Indian Nations. Or, more primitive
yet, somone writing about how Columbus should deal with the
natives he discovered. How about the first contacts with the
South Sea Island aborigines in WWII (Tasaday, etc)?

Also, it sounds like someone trying to determine how a "United
Nations" organization would interact with aborigines.
Discussions leading up to the founding of the UN?

Alternatively, this might be a stab at creating an "interplanet"
law that would be needed after colonies of humans are
established on other planets or on space stations. This would
be something that people interested in space exploration and
colonization might write. (see below)


9) Paragraph 6: cross off "to the earth" and imagine the US
government vs the American Indians: if they attacked we could
defend. Alternatively, this might pertain to the possibility
that a well established colony of humans on another planet or
space platform might become a threat to the earth. (see below)

10) Paragraph 7: Considering the UFO context of this document,
the suggestion is made that ETs are homo sapiens that "grew up"
on another planet ("celestrial body in our solar system") and
evolved a different culture. Actually, this is more consistent
with thinking of a future situation in which a human colony
"grew up" on another planet or space station and evolved its own
culture. "Obviously, this possibility depends upon many
circumstances. whose condition cannot yet be foreseen. However,
we can make a study of the basis on which such a thing might
have occurred." Might have occurred?

I believe that already by 1947 astronomers had concluded that
the conditions for human-like life exist only on the earth and
not on any other "body in our solar system." Hence I believe
that for E and O to suggest otherwise would be highly unlikely.
Furthermore, this paragraph suggests that the writers didn't
know whether it was true or not and are therefore ready to "make
a study." This uncertainty seems strange when compared to the
opening paragraph which seems to imply that the writers are not
merely engaged in an academic exercise to answer the question
"what are the legal ramifications of contact with ET? or
something like that."


On the other hand, this might apply to far future space colonies
that mght try to break away from their parent earth nations and
become nations on their own.

Paragraph 8: this paragraph seems to directly address the
possibility of HUMAN colonization of planets, the opposite of
other solar system planets being the source of ETs coming to
earth. Amusing: in this paragraph it is suggested that water of
hydration could be driven off by heating and split into H and O
and that the O would be used for breathing and the H as fuel.
Question: what is the H going to burn when used as fuel? O?

Paragraph 9: The original of this document could be about the
possible problems for international law that could result if
colonies of humans that have been established on other planets
or bodies in the solar system for purposes of exploitation
decide to become independent nations (analogous to the American
colonies of Britain!!!). It could also be about the problems of
colonies of previously uninhabited places on earth where there
is a "continuous interchange" of men who work in these places
but with no chance of the place becoming an independent country.

Para 10): Thought EBE was supposedly invented by Bronk after the
Roswell crash!! This paragraph, ostensibly written in June,
1947, says we now want to determine what to do if EBEs want to
settle here

Para 11: item 1 of "what to do"/...... suggests that we consider
them an independent people if they have culture and are
politically organized. This paragraph also says what THEY could
do: they could consider "what degree of development would be
required on earth for colonizing." Do these statements make any
sense in the context of a technologically superior "race" coming
to "colonize" earth? NO. To me it appear as nonsense.

ON THE OTHER HAND, if this refers to HUMANs who grew up in space
colonies and who now want to return to earth after developing
their own "culture", then it does make some sense.

Para 12: item 2 of "What to do"......This doesn't suggest
anything for us to do. Instead it says that EBEs have a "right"
to colonize if THEY consider our culture "devoid of political
unity." Does this make any sense at all? NO. More nonsense? It
also is a little weird if one assumes this is a discussion of
space colonies returning to earth.

Para 13: This suggests that the EBEs should carry out a
colonization in which they would be our guardians of teach us
something ("tutelage") with the "tacit approval" of the United
Nations. I ask, what would the UN have to say if a
technologically superior race of EBEs decided to colonize earth?
Would the EBEs care what the UN had to say? Probably not. On th
other hand, aboriginal races that are discovered by UN member
nations might well care what the UN had to say. If this refers
to human space colonies returning to earth with superior
knowledge gained from living in space, then it might marginally
make some sense.


Para 14: labelled (a). The first sentence says the UN regulated
international relations and not tutelage (as mentioned
previously). This implies that the tutelage is going to occur
within a nation's boundaries and hence is not subject to UN
control. The next sentence makes no sense. It appears to be the
concatenation of two ideas. "It would have the right to
intervene only if the relationships of a member nation with a
celestrial (sic) body affected another member nation with an
extraterrestrial people is beyond the domain of the United
Nations." This sentence falls apart at the word "is." Leaving
off all words after "is" we have a sentence that says the UN
could only intervene if "th relationships of a member nation
with a celestrial body" were to affect "another member nation
with an extraterrestrial people." The meaning of a "member
nation with a celestrial body" is not clear. Nor is the meaning
of a "member nation with an extraterrestrial people." Aside from
the lousy sentence construction, this sentence doesn't really
mean anything (unless this refers to an earthbound country that
has a relationship with a space-based colony on some platform or
planet and said relationship affects some other member nation
which also has an "extraterrestrial" colony).

Para. 15: labelled (b): "If the United Nations were a
supra-national organization it would have competency to deal
with all problems related to extraterrestrial peoples. Of
course, even though it is merely an international organization,
it would have this competence if its member states would be
willing to recognize it." This paragraph would make sense if
"extraterrestrial peoples" was replaced with something more
earthy or with "space colonies." "Supra-natioal" means "above"
the national. In other words, if the UN could tell member
countries what to do, then the UN could deal with problems of
(aboriginal or space-based) peoples. However, the UN is only an
organization of member states, not a superior ruling body over
the members. But, if the member states would recognize the UN as
being "superior," then the UN coul handle these problems.

Para. 16: except for "celestrial" this is one of the few
paragraphs that makes sense standing alone. However, with a
change of a few words this could probably be made more "earthy."

Para. 17: Considering the previous paragraphs the first sentence
here sounds somewhat redundant and somewhat senseless: "We
cannot exclude the possibility that a race of extraterrstrial
(sic) people more advanced technologically and economically may
take upon itself the right to occupy another celestrial body."
Wait a minute, to this point the discussion has mostly been
about EBEs colonizing earth. What is this "other celetrial
body?" consider what this sentence would mean if
"extraterrestrial" were replaced by "people" (meaning humans)
and "celestrial body" were replaced by "country" or "area of the
earth." "How, then, would this occupation come about?"

Another interpretation: this may refer to one space colony of
humans trying to take over another space colony. Suppose, for
example, the USA set up a colony on Mars and the Soviet Union
(remember, this is ostensibly written about 50 years ago) were
to set up a space colony on the moon. Now suppose the US colony
decided to attack the moon colony. What could the UN do to
intervene? If the space colonies were sufficiently self-reliant,
not needing anything from the earthbound "mother" countries, ten
probably the UN could do nothing short of launching a space war
to deter agresssion. But this would likely end up an earth war.

Para 18: labelled 1. This paragraph does not answer "how this
occupation would come about." Instead, it says "The idea of
exploitation by one celestrial state" (by another?) "would be
rejected" (by whom or what?), "they may think it would be
advisable to grant it" (what, explotation?) to all others"
(other what? "celestrial" states? races? humans? EBEs?) "capable
of reaching another celestrial body." The two main portions of
this sentence don't fit together. The first half says the "idea"
of exploitation would be rejected. THe second half talks about
granting "it" to all others that are capable of reaching
"another celestrial body." Does that mean that any group capable
of space travel will be granted "it" by the UN? Is "it" the
right of exploitation?

This makes little sense as written.

Para 19: labelled 2: presumably this is another description of
"how this occupation would come about." This does not answer
that question. But it does discuss what might happen with
occupation: a "celestrail" body could be divided into zones
which would be distributed among "other celestrial states." This
raises the question of how many "Celestrial states" are trying
to take over the earth. According to this paragraph, division
into zones would present a problem of "distribution" and,
furthermore, "other celestrial states would be deprived of the
possibility of owning an area, or if they were granted one it
would involve complicate operations." Now this makes me feel
sorry for the other "celestrial states" that would be deprived
of the opportunity for owning an area. This makes no
sense.....except perhaps in the context of the relationships
between space colonies (of humans).

Para 20: labelled 3: This paragraph is another answer to how
occupation would come about: "Indivisible co-sovereignty, giving
each celestrial state the right to make whatever use is most
convenient to its interests, independently of the others." This
is not a complete sentence, but if the first two words are
assumed to answer the question of how occupation would come
about, i.e., "by indivisible co-sovereignty," then the sentence
makes sense. I presume occupation by "indivisible
co-sovereignty" would work. Sounds like a real good deal for the
occupiers since they get the "right to make whatever use is most
convenient." However, there is a drawback to "indivisible
co-soverignty": "This would create a situation of anarchy, as
the strongest on would win out in the end." In other words the
"co-occupiers" would fight for control. There would be anarchy
for a while, perhaps, but I presume that ultimately rule would
be reestablished as a dictatorship. Overall, this paragraph
makes little sense inhte context of EBE taking over or occupying
the earth. It might make some sense in terms of the
relationships between space colonies of humans.

Para 21: labelled 4: Does this paragraph make sense in the
context of occupation? Apparently it assumes that the EBEs would
be moral and would allow themselves to be absorbed peacefully
into our culture in such as way as to be invisible ("their
presence not be revealed"). This sounds like "stealth
occupation" by agreement with the occupied, if one assumes EBEs
are the occupiers and humans are the occupied.

Para 22: "Actually we do not believe it necessary to go that
far." Huh? Not necessary to have stealth occupation? "It would
merely be a matter of internationalizing celestrial peoples and
creating an international treaty instrument preventing
exploitation of all nations belonging to the United Nations."
What is this supposed to mean? By "internationalizing celestrial
peoples," the EBEs, who are about to take over or occupy the
earth, we can create and "international treaty instrument" that
will prevent "exploitation" by the EBEs of "all nations
belonging to the United Nations." Don't we wish that were so!!
In my opinion this paragraph makes little no sense.... UNLESS,
it pertains to the relationships between space-based colonies of
humans. IN that case, they essentially say that the United
Nations (of earth) should be extended to space so that "space
nations" would also be bound by basic laws of the UN (against
the exploitation of one space nation or one space nation's
possessions, by another space nation).

Para 23: This paragraph says that there has been a loss of
interest "by states here on earth" in law related to the
occupation of unoccupied or unpossessed territories (terra
nullius or, in this document, "res nullius"; look it up on the
web! a hot topic in Australia!!!) since there are no longer
unoccupied territories on earth. However, there are potentially
"territories" in space which could be occupied (moon, planets)
and this possibility brings forth again the need for
international laws related to territorial occupation.

Paragraphs 24, 25 and 26: Except for the misspelling of
"celestial" in para. 26, these paragraphs are acceptable as
written. These paragraphs effectively define occupation as "the
means for acquiring sovereignty over territories....either
inhabited of in an elementary state of civilization." In other
words, send your army and/or civilians to simply "move in" on
the present inhabitants, if any, and "take over" the land or
area to be occupied. Then you can teach them your ways of
"civilization" (see previous reference to tutelage). Paragraph
26 "predicts" a rise in "imperialist expansion" by states taking
over extraterrestrial bodies in interplanetary space where "the
celestrial states present new problems."

This sounds very much like thinking related to an outer space
treaty between space colonies or nations and has NOTHING to do
with ET's coming to earth.

Para 27: Aside from poor sentence construction this paragraph
makes sense. It says that estraterrestrial territories such as
the moon belong to no one. (Hence it is available for occupation
by colonization by terrestrial states. HOwever, terrestrial
states might have to divide the moon into zones or else fight
over control of the moon.) However, if a celestial body were
found to have an indigenous race, then no single terrestrial
nation could claim it. Instead it would be considered as
communal property of all "celestrial states." Of course, this
has nothing to do with EBEs taking over the earth.

Para 28: change in subject: are "celestrial astroplanes" flying
around in our atmosphere because of of atomic testing? The
implication here is that there have been a number of flying
saucer sightings already by the time of this document in June
1947, enough sightings to cause an alarm. Another implication is
that there were none before the first bomb (Aug. 1945). This
implication contradicts the implied or explicit claims in other
documents that there was "hard evidence" such as crashed saucers
before 1947 and even before 1945 (e.g., in 1943).

Para 29: This paragraph says that the military accepts the
reality of "unidentified space craft flying in our atmosphere"
and "possibly maintaining orbits about our planet." Ostensibly
written in June, 1947, this is certainly premature from the
conventional history point of view which is that, publically,
the AF has never acknowledged "unidentified space craft." But,
more to the point, there is little evidence of the acceptance of
UFO reality by the AF top brass until early 1952. IN 1952
Stephen Possony wrote a document which includes the sentence,
"The Air Force cannot simply assume that flying saucers are
estraterrestrial." Possony, a top level civilian consultant to
the Air Force was in a position to know what the top brass was
thinking. Evidently the brass was thinking "ET." But this is
1952 after a lot of water had flowed, and a lot of saucers had
flown, over the dam.

Para 30: The sentence structure of this paragraph (one sentence)
seems more convoluted than any of the previous. Was it by the
same writer(s)? It almost makes sense as written. IF the words
"...and the exclusion of" which follow the word "disarm" are
removed the sentence becomes understandable. This paragraph says
that efforts to reach agreements to disarm or discontinue
testing of nuclear "weapons that are too destructive" have been
unsuccessful despite the "lamentations of philosophers, the
efforts of politicians and th conferences of diplomats."
However, " by some miracle we cannot explain" there have been
agreements on chemicals in warfare.

Para 31: This paragraph introduces the idea of an atomic bomb
carried by a "space vehicle." This makes sense in the
conventional way if we assume the writer was thinking of atomic
bombs on ballistic missiles..rockets which would go far enough
above the earth to be in outer space for at least part of the
journey. We know that in early 1949 Lincoln La Paz (famous
meteoricist - who studied meteors) was already warning the Air
Force Office of Special Investigations that green fireballs
might be Russian missiles which we could call "fractional
orbital bombs" but without the bombs. (However, he predicted
that bombs would be added later.) "The use of the atomic bomb
combined with space vehicles poses a threat on a scale which
makes it absolutely necessary to come to an agreement in this
area." The writer(s) then refers to the appearance of
"unidentified space vehicles (opinions are divided as to their
origins) over the skies of Europe and the United states has
sustained an ineradical (sic) fear, an anxiety about security,
that is driving the great powers to make an effort to find a
solution to the threat." Note: this sounds as if it COULD have
been written in 1949, 1950 or so when the missile race was
really on and after there had been enough saucer and green
fireball sightings so that it would make sense to worry about
distinguishing between a ballistic missile and a saucer. This
sort of reason sounds really premature for a June 1947 document.

Para 32: This paragraph makes complete sense as it stands
alone./ There is no reference to EBEs or unidentified space
craft. This is simply an analysis of the military situation that
could be caused by the proliferation of "nukes" (nuclear tipped
ballistic missiles) which are described as the "ultimate weapon
of war" because they would strike very quickly and come from
above so the "bombee" wouldn't necessarily know when to expect
it or where "bomber" was located. Also, impossible to defend
against.

Para 33. This paragraph points out that at the time of writing
(1947?) only slow moving bombers were available for weapon
transport. HOwever, looking ahead ten years (1957) "When
artificial satellites and missiles find their place in space we
must consider the potential threat that" (here is where the
paragraph gets a little "wacky") " unidentified space craft
pose. One must consider the fact that mis-identification of the
space craft for a (sic) intercontinental missile in a re-entry
phase of clight could lead to accidental nuclear war with
horrible consequences." Wrong.
 So what if they misidentified a "space craft" (an alien flying
vehicle - flying saucer) as an intercontinental missile. If the
object were a missile, it would be only minutes to seconds
between the (radar) detection and the explosion. IN other words
they would have very little time to wait to find out whether
they had detected a missile or a space craft. IF after, say, 5
minutes there was no explosion, then they could safely say they
detected (by radar) a "space craft." Now, admittedly from the
time of first detection to the time of identification as either
a space craft (no explosion) or a missile/bomb (big explosion)
they would be wondering what to do about it. But only in a
"launch on detect" scenario would we be likely to mount a
retaliation - leading to "horrible consequences" - before
waiting to see whether it was a missile or a "space craft."
Also, of course, unless the space craft were following a
ballistic trajectory from a reasonably likely source (e.g., from
te direction of the Soviet Union), it would be rejected as an
atomic threat. In other words the fear that an "space craft"
would be mistaken for an intercontinental missile was unfounded
in 1947 and in years later. Recall that in 1953 the CIA did
suggest that saucer sightings could clog communication channels.
And, in earlier years, there could well have been a fear that
SOVIET BOMBERS might be misidentified as"space craft." But, of
course, the solution to this problem was to scramble jets at the
first contact and identify the radar targets. (This actually
happened Dec. 6, 1950 at about 10 AM when unknown radar targets
were detected coming from the north near Greenland. see "THE
UFO/FBI CONNECTION/ the REAL X-files by B. Maccabee).

Para 34: the preceding 3 paragraphs were more concerned with
nudlear and war affairs on the earth. Now we get back to the
ET's....or do we? "Lastly, we should consider the possibility
that our atmospheric tests of late could have influenced the
arrival of celestrial scrutiny. They could have been curious or
even alarmed by such activity (and rightly so, for the Russians
would make every effort to observe and record such tests)."
What? The Russians? What do they have to do with "celestrial
scrutiny?" There is no doubt that the "Russians would make every
effort to observe and record such tests." But that doesn't mean
that the EBEs would "observe and record such tests." They might
not give a damn. Or they might. This sounds very much like the
ORIGINAL writer of this paragraph was concerned with some PEOPLE
(Soviets or friends of the Soviets?) observing tests.

Para 35: "In conclusion it is our professional opinion based on
submitted data that this situation is extremely perilous and
measures must be taken to rectify a very serious problem are
very apparent." Huh? Leave off the last three words, please. OK,
so this writing was ostensibly based on "submitted data." So E
and O didn't have their own data to go on? They were handed what
data they needed in order to write this? And they describe the
situation as "extremely perilous?" What situation? The "stealth
takeover" of the earth by EBEs? The situation with the atomic
bombs on ballistic missiles would be perilous in the future, but
not at the time of writing when only bombers could carry bombs.
So, what situation is "extremely perilous?"

DISCUSSION:

Having read every word of this document and having tried to make
some sense of it I suggest

1) Ostensibly this is about relationships between humans and
"estraterrestrial men" or non-humans (EBEs). However, the paper
does not follow what I,at least, would consider to be a logical
flow. The first part starts off with international law and how
it might apply to relationships with "extraterrestrial men"
(humans?) and EBEs coming to earth. But then it inserts comments
that could apply to humans occupying other "celestrial" bodies.
Finally, it switches to a military threat, not from the EBEs but
from the Russians.

2) there are numerous misspellings and several paragraphs have
poor sentence construction

3) many of the statements seem to make no sense in the context
in which one supposes they are to be taken

4) the stamp TOP SECRET seems to have been made on a small
rectangle of paper attached to the top of the typed document.

5) I think E and O could have done a LOT better than this if
they were really concerned about the impact of EBE colonization
of the earth

6) I think this document could have been created by modifying a
real document that discusses the problems of colonization by
humans of over "bodies" in the solar system, including the
problems that could arise if such colonies decided to become
independent. There may also have been a real document discussing
the problems created by atomic warfare.


Bottom line: I don't buy it.

...............

Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 17:49:45 -0800
To: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
From: Ryan S. Wood <rswood@igc.apc.org>
Subject: Authenticity of the Oppenheimer/Einstein draft
Cc: Bob Wood <drbobwood@aol.com>

Hi Bruce,

Thanks for your detailed comments on this letter. I will read
them over and comment on them hopefully soon. In the meantime,
let me provide you with some addtional discussion that we have
prepared that may address some of your concerns.

Assessment of originals. Since typewriters are six lines per
inch if the paper is not slipping, it is possible to enlarge or
reduce copies to the exact size of the original. Then, on pages
2, 3, 4, 5 and 6 one can measure the width of the original
remnant of paper edge to be 8.0 inches. The paper size of 8 x
10.5 inches was used during the war.

Chronology. Both draft authors were at Princeton at the time,
although some records for 1947 are missing from various files.

Type and handwriting. The top secret markings are done with
paste-on labels, also consistent with the period. This would be
consistent with having been typed before the classification was
applied. The type shows p=92s, o=92s, m=92s and other letters with
small spaces filled in, thereby indicating a carbon copy. If so,
the classification would have had to be a paste-on label. The
initials of Vannevar Bush are similar to exemplars of his
initials.

Content and authorship. A comparison of the language of this
draft with writings of J. Robert Oppenheimer shows clearly that
he did not dictate it or write it, since his work is quite
sophisticated and urbane. The misspelling of the word
"celestial" as "celestrial" would be consistent with a
circumstance of a secretary taking down dictation =97 and the
secretary not being knowledgeable in astronomy. With Einstein
dictating, with his German accent, several of the misspelled
words become more reasonable. The misspelling of the word
basically in the second sentence may suggest that the secretary
was not working from dictation but directly from Einstein=92s
words. This would also favor security, since the dictation pad
would not exist to have to be classified. The content of this
piece can be compared against what Einstein might have said if
he were given a specific request. The five asterisks separating
the sections appear to be separating hypothetical questions.
They are consistent with the answers to the following seven
questions:

        What relations should we have with extraterrestrial men?
        Where might they be coming from?
        What should we do if they want to settle here?
        What does international law say about this problem?
        Do they have a right to move into unsettled territories?
        Do we have more rights to settle on the moon than they do?
        Has our testing of atomic weapons caused the presence of
     the visitors?

Reference 1 says that when Einstein executed his first contract
for Dr. Vannevar Bush in late 1941, Bush required Einstein to
submit his written report to Bush directly in Einstein=92s own
handwriting so that no typist or other assistant would see it.
This work pertained to uranium isotope separation, an early
difficult problem. This historical piece of information would be
consistent with the idea of there being no dictation pad. This
is consistent with not correcting the typing errors.

Bush himself =97 consistent with the awkward beginning of the
sentence =97 possibly typed the note at the end. The intent is
less clear, except Bush did not want Oppenheimer talking to
President Truman on this topic.

As far as the overall message of the draft is concern, it is
unclear. Einstein says that that the "measures to be taken to
rectify a very serious problem are apparent." It is certainly
not apparent to us what he was recommending.

Some have noted the presence of phrases that seem to be of a
more modern era, such as, "at any rate," to the point where,"
"in any case," or "to a certain extent." A literary analysis of
the piece, looking at sentence structure, sentence beginnings
and endings, shows consistency with other examples of draft
Einstein material of the era. A comprehensive set of comparisons
is in preparation.

In summary, clues from the original, the chronology, the type,
the handwriting, the authorship and the content all favor
authenticity.


1. Sayen, J. (1985). Einstein in America. Crown Publishers, New York.
Dr. Robert M. & Ryan S. Wood
Majestic Doucments Investigators | Researchers
PO Box 2272, Redwood City CA 94064
<http://www.TheWordisTruth.org>


.......................

My comment on the response: aside from misspelling and some poor
sentence construction, which MIGHT be explained as resulting
from translation from German to English in a draft, the document
seems to contain too much illogic and not enough continuity of
subject matter to have been written by a couple of geniuses. The
response is not sufficient to convince me.

---






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 21

                          Re: Guilt By Association?

From: Rebecca Schatte<xiannekei@yahoo.com>
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 21:40:11 -0800 (PST)
Fwd Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 12:30:09 -0500
Subject: Re: Guilt By Association?


>Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 20:13:58 +0000
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Sean Jones <seanj@tedric.demon.co.uk>
>Subject: Guilt By Association?

>Hi Errol, Hi All, esp Bob Shell <G>

>With the "Tent Footage" fully debunked by Tim and Phil, the
>Alien Autopsy must also be fake/hoaxed/bogus purely because it
>came from the same mill does it not?

Not necessarily, but in this case, the AA has not been shown to
be what Santilli has claimed.

>NO!

>This is guilt by association. Many people on this list have
>criticised Gary Alevy specifically for this "crime".

Leaving Gary out of this for the moment, shouldn't our
suspicions be raised just a little, were it not for all the
other problems with the AA?

>As far as I know, ( I will stand corrected if someone can show
>me the evidence) the actual Alien Autopsy film has stood up to
>all the scrutiny but due to the extremely dubious way it was
>made public was immediately frowned upon by many big names in
>Ufology (capital U?). So straight away the smoking gun was cast
>into shadow.

First off, we should have been dubious from the beginning. Being
dubious is not necessarily a bad thing.

>I often wonder how many people consider the AA to be genuine but
>are afraid to say so for fear of ridicule? After all it is easy
>to mock than support is it not?

I think that people who genuinely believe in the AA film (the
Michael Hesemann's of the world) aren't afraid to be ridiculed
for their opinions.

>Is it not possible that the AA _is_ a genuine artefact but it
>was deliberately released in such a manor as to cause conflict
>within the ranks? I was once told by a certain person a few
>years back that the people who orchestrated the release hold
>critical information that used properly could prove _or_
>disprove the AA as genuine.

Of course the people who released the AA hold all the cards.

>I wonder is it time to take a vote people? All those who believe
>the AA genuine hold your hands up, OK now all you who think its
>fake hold your hands up.

I raise my hand up for FAKE and that is based on the dubiousness
of its release, the cast of clowns who represent it, the
conflicting stories which have been told, and because Theresa
Carlson proved it to my satisfaction with her tireless research
into the AA.

Check out:
http://www.uforeport.com/carlson_1.html

Rebecca






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 21

                           Re: UFO Communication?

From: R=E9al Arsenault <aviano291@hotmail.com>
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 20:58:47 PST
Fwd Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 12:24:21 -0500
Subject: Re: UFO Communication?


>From: Mark Cashman <mcashman@ix.netcom.com>
>Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 20:09:34 -0500
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: UFO Communication?

>>Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 00:57:41 -0800
>>From: Josh Goldstein <clearlt@pacbell.net>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>Subject: UFO Communication?

>>All the past discussion of SETI and alien communication has
>>brought me to pose a question. How do UFOs communicate?

>>If they communicate using the electromagnetic
>>spectrum why can't that be detected and perhaps interpreted?

>>If the flying triangles are terrestrial in origin I assume we
>>would be able to detect many scrambled radio messages. Why don't
>>we?

>Of course, all of the following represents nothing more than the
>rankest speculation, but I think these are some of the
>alternatives:

<snip>

Mark,

Another prospect that probably wasn't mentioned before...
Extremely Low Frequency (ELF) is very much in used with some
major powers worldwide (ie: U.S., U.K., Russia). This frequency
range matches with the Earth natural Electro-Magnetic field,
which enables naval headquarters to communicate with their
submarines, whatever their depths.

My idea is as follows:

On some occations, beams of light emanating from UFOs have been
reported by observers/witnesses. My hypothesis...

These craft may be using 'hyper-magnetized/polarised'
light-beams to communicate with others, through Earth's
eletro-magnetic field. These fields may go far beyond our
planet's atmosphere, and would easily be picked-up by any other
'listeners' from our Earth and outer-Earth.

Note: Wasn't there some degree of radiation (or magnetic field)
reported from the soil where they were reported?

Anyway, after working for nearly 20 years in the field of
communications, many ideas have come to mind (IRW UFO Comms);
this idea was the one that kept on coming up, and still sticks
with me as one (if not the most) valid way of communications for
such objects. Every planet, no matter their size, has
electromagnetic-fields. Unless, anyone can disprove it!


Personal comment:

As you may already have noticed, my name may not be familiar to
you all. I sincerely do hope that I wasn't interfering with your
discussions. If this was the case, just tell me so.

Best of luck to all UFO'ers.


R=E9al V. Arsenault
Ottawa, ON, Canada
www.trytel.com/~rvarsen
Other EMail: ac091@issc.debbs.ndhq.dnd.ca





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 21

                         What's The Point? - A Rant

From: John W. Ratcliff <jratcliff@worldnet.att.net>
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 00:33:05 -0600
Fwd Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 12:34:52 -0500
Subject: What's The Point? - A Rant


I am ashamed to admit that I kind of, sort of, maybe, in a way,
sometimes believe there might really be such a thing as UFOs.
Of course, then all of the sudden, awash in existentialism, I
begin to question my definitions of what reality is.  Is 'it'
something objective, 'out there', fixed and stable ruled by
immutable laws of physics, only marred by my pathetic interface
system, my random and half incoherent excuse for self-aware
consciousness, and generally half psychotic bad attitude?

Or maybe it's all a dream, yeah, that's the ticket.

Regardless, whatever bits of intellect a rational person, or
self-deluded person who arrogantly believes himself to be such,
might invest in so called 'paranormal' research suddenly is laid
waste about the time they encounter the likes of Richard
Hoagland.

Don't get me wrong.  I love a good yarn.  The better the story,
vampires, ghosts, UFOs, bigfoot, you name it, I love it.
Transpersonal experiences without the aid of psychoactive
compounds, or better yet, those with the aid of a good
home-brew, basement garden, or any kind of do it yourself mind
altering psycho-love-juices, are my favorite topic of
conversation; whether at a party of just in the line at a
grocery store.

However, that rambling said, I found the contents of this link
<http://www.enterprisemission.com/alaskan.htm>, the latest
public regurgitation of Richard Hoagland, to push the outer
limits of my own rather well rounded ability to explore
alternate belief systems.  If it's all a joke, a put on, then I
guess I can kind of appreciate this bit of performance art.
Where I get a real nervous feeling is when I suspect poor
Richard actually literally believes this stuff.

I guess I gotta admit, Richie is one guerilla ontologist who's
writings actually make me want to rush out and mail a healthy
cash contribution to CSICOP.  Naahhhh, that's ridiculous, my
original proposal for a formal intervention would be better...

Wait...I'm still rambling and entire paragraphs have passed!
What's the point?  Ohhh..I remember, what was the thrust of this
message.  The question is, what's the point if you actually
allow yourself to entertain the idea that not everyone who has
ever shared their UFO experience with you is a damnable liar,
and when you actually question people who have been involved in
the military regarding the subject and have been forthcoming in
their personal testimony, and you have read research material by
seemingly rational and sane human beings, and you have allowed
yourself to occasionally entertain the bizarre notion that maybe
UFOs might actually be kind of real in a way, even if you have
to stretch your definition of what reality might really mean,
and you suddenly gain a sense of complete and utter hopelessness
at ever discovering any semblance of 'the truth', or even to
create a more open climate for discussion of the subject in
public forums, when the likes of Richard Hoagland are promoting
the kind of insanity which was hyperlinked above?

While I love UFOs, and my run on sentences which are probably
designed to cause my high school English teacher the same kind
of maddening feeling I get when I browse the Enterprise Mission
web site, I must conclude that nothing anybody can publish,
produce, or promote, can ever rise above the noise and madness
of the likes of Art Bell, Richard Hoagland, god knows how many
other internet yahoos, radio talk show hosts, mega
bagzillionaire ex-CEO's, and their self-addled friends.

I give up.  Love and kisses.

John W. Ratcliff
Self Mutilating UFO Groupie






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 21

                       Re: The State of Ufology Today

From: Jim Bouck <JGBOUCK@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 02:14:55 EST
Fwd Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 12:42:51 -0500
Subject: Re: The State of Ufology Today


>Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 22:03:12 -0500
>From: Gary <galevy@pipeline.com>
>To: UFO UpDate <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: The State of UFOlogy Today


>Every once in a while something appears on this list that is so,
>well, amazing (sic) that it cries out for commentary.  Such an
>item was the January, 1999, edition of _Filer's Files_, written
>by the Eastern Director of MUFON, George A. Filer.  That is,
>this missive beggars description, though I am going to try.
>Can it be that the coming end of the millenium has addled the
>brains of otherwise steady people?  Maybe.  Or perhaps what we
>see below is simply more of the same wheel-spinning that MUFON
>is famous for.

<snip>

In response to Gary Alevy's attack on George Filer, I would just
like to say that my ten year old can criticize more
intelligently then you.

If you have a problem maybe you should go to the source--George
Filer-- and personalize your complaint with him. Why stand on a
soap-box and make a fool of yourself. George doesn't deserve
your attack and you (unless you are under ten years old) don't
need to try and make a name for yourself by attacking him or
anybody else.

Grow up and be constructive and not so destructive.

Jim Bouck
NYMUFON ASD
jgbouck@aol.com
NYMUFON webpage:
http://members.aol.com/jgbouck/index.html







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 21

             Re: Firmage's Manuscript - The Word Is 'Marketing'

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 02:26:28 EST
Fwd Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 12:46:01 -0500
Subject: Re: Firmage's Manuscript - The Word Is 'Marketing'


>Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 11:21:23 -0500
>From: Wendy Christensen <christensen@catlas.mv.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Firmage's Manuscript - The Word Is 'Marketing'

>Anyone who has slogged through the 240+ pages of the "short
>version" of Firmages's compendium now knows that "The Word" is
>'Marketing'.

>Firmage did not become a zillionaire by being a dummy. He knows
>what is required to cut through the noise in the marketplace
>(especially the overhyped internet marketplace) and how far one
>needs to go to get attention. Thus, his clever, if somewhat
>overwrought, "pre-launch" announcement of his e-commerce
>website, due to begin operations "sometime next year." Indeed,
>this attention-garnering pre-launch appears to be the entire
>purpose of his current enterprise.

<snip>

>I am not criticizing Firmage's approach; from a marketing
>standpoint it is masterful. But is would be a mistake to take
>this whole "WordIsTruth" phenomenon for more than it is: a
>clever, unusually elaborate (he's rich; he can afford it!)
>pre-launch for a website. Just remember: "The Word is
>Marketing."

>Purrrrrs...
>Wendy Christensen

Dear Wendy, List and Others...

I am a retired marketing genius. Unfortunately, I was unable to
amass the fortune that Mr. Fromage was able to garner and
certainly not at such a young stage in my life.... as did
Fromage!  First off, I am not a young man. It's just my
emotional and intellectual maturity which hides the brain of a
thirteen year old. I was always good at that, hiding my early
teenage-hood.

But I am inclined to agree with the possibilities your post
implied. There is just one caveat, one admonition, this plan may
be too good to be that good. Of course, the key word is "may."

Time will tell. It only took me thirty years to understand how
to deviously market unneeded, unwanted "stuff" to anyone
with a buck two-fifty. And when I finally figured it out, it was
most abhorrent to my personal sensibilities, which by then
had changed into something with a more righteous inclination.

But having been a sly, devious marketer, I would have the very
same reaction as the one you just demonstrated.

Say, you do look familiar! Have we met before, maybe at a
trade show or sumpin? As Dylan once said,

"Say, that's a cute hat, and a smile so hard to resist. But,
what's a sweetheart like you, doin, in a dump like this?"

Dr. Gesundt
I will sell no wine, until it's ready!






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 21

                          Re: Guilt By Association?

From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net>
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 02:35:17 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 12:48:38 -0500
Subject: Re: Guilt By Association?

>Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 03:11:50 -0800
>From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Guilt By Association?

>>Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 20:13:58 +0000
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>From: Sean Jones <seanj@tedric.demon.co.uk>
>>Subject: Guilt By Association?

>>With the "Tent Footage" fully debunked by Tim and Phil, the
>>Alien Autopsy must also be fake/hoaxed/bogus purely because it
>>came from the same mill does it not?

>>I wonder is it time to take a vote people? All those who
>>believe the AA genuine hold your hands up, OK now all you who
>>think its fake hold your hands up.

>Dear Sean:
>
>My hand is up. I think its fake.

>-  Larry Hatch

Hi Sean,

I'll have to add a ditto to Bob Shell. I throw up both hands
because I'm just not certain. And, if a guy like Bob with his
photographic expertise and who has dedicated far more man-hours
investigating that piece of film than most of us combined
doesn't know, who am I to argue! <G>

Peace,

John Velez
________________________________________________
                                jvif@spacelab.net
INTRUDERS FOUNDATION/ABDUCTION INFORMATION CENTER
                            http://www.if-aic.com
"Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind."
________________________________________________






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 21

                         Underwater UFO Phenomenon?

From: Sefer Murat Aksoy <murataksoy@lycosmail.com>
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 02:51:16 -0500 (EST)
Fwd Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 12:53:25 -0500
Subject: Underwater UFO Phenomenon?


[Non-subscriber Post]

Dear UFO Researchers,

I am working on a special project related to USOs,that is,
Unidentified Swimming/Submarine/Submerged/Submersible/Aquatic
Objects, or simply Underwater UFO Phenomenon. Please would you
help me by informing me about some UFOlogist names who are
already interested in USOs. If you do it for me, then I will be
very glad too.

I am looking forward to see your mail as soon as it is possible.

Wish you success at your work.

     Sefer Murat AKSOY
murataksoy@lycosmail.com







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 21

                          Re: Guilt By Association?

From: Philip Mantle - UFO <pmufo@dial.pipex.com>
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 03:28:38 +0000
Fwd Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 13:06:45 -0500
Subject: Re: Guilt By Association?


>>Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 20:13:58 +0000
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>From: Sean Jones <seanj@tedric.demon.co.uk>
>>Subject: Guilt By Association?

>>With the "Tent Footage" fully debunked by Tim and Phil, the
>>Alien Autopsy must also be fake/hoaxed/bogus purely because it
>>came from the same mill does it not?

>>I wonder is it time to take a vote people? All those who
>>believe the AA genuine hold your hands up, OK now all you who
>>think its fake hold your hands up.


>My hand is up. I think its fake.

Between us I think we've proven, beyond reasonable doubt, that
the tent footage is indeed a fake, the same, however, cannot as
yet be said about the rest of the Santilli film. Hopefully, in
time, we will be able to offer enoughproof and not rely on
opinions.

Philip






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 21

                               Press Releases

From: Philip Mantle - UFO <pmufo@dial.pipex.com>
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 03:49:23 +0000
Fwd Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 13:08:03 -0500
Subject: Press Releases


Dear colleagues,

As the research & commissioning editor for Quest Magazine I'd
like to know if anyone knows of how and where I might be put on
a press mailing list, or lists, of up and coming movies that
deal with the topics we cover.

For those of you who don't know, Quest Magazine has been in
circulation for 3 years now and is distributed to 30 countries
around the world.

It covers such topics, in a serious manner, as: Ancient
Civilisations, Ancient Technology, Astronomy, Astrology, UFOs,
The Paranormal, Virus's, Remote Viewing, SETI, Future
Technology, and much much more.

I'm also responsible for a 'What's On' page, attempting to
provide details on conferences and lectures dealing with the
above topics.

If you know of how I can be put on such mailing lists, or you
would like more information on contributing to Quest Magazine,
or indeed you have a conference or a lecture that you might like
us to include in our 'What's On' section, then please contact me
on:

Philip Mantle,
1 Woodhall Drive,
Batley,
West Yorkshire,
England,
WF17 7SW.
Tele/Fax: 01924 444049.
E-mail: pmquest@dial.pipex.com

Many thanks,

Philip Mantle.

PS.

Please feel free to forward this onto any of your colleagues






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 21

               Exotic Propulsion Technology Testing In Canada?

From: Dan Geib <geibdan@qtm.net>
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 20:24:37 -0800
Fwd Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 13:15:36 -0500
Subject: Exotic Propulsion Technology Testing In Canada?


Hello,

I received a compelling first hand account of Possible Military
use of New Technologies being tested in Northern Canada. It is
apparently a triangle drone ? It contains government responses
to inquiries and provides for very interesting reading.

If interested the article / website is called
Is Exotic Propulsion Technology Being Tested In Canada's North?
and can be located at:

http://www.qtm.net/~geibdan/a1999/jan/index.htm

at UFO Folklore!

http://www.qtm.net/~geibdan/framemst.html

For no matter what it is or is not, it always is good folklore!






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 21

                      Taking the Heat Out Of 'The Heat'

From: Roy Hale <roy.hale@virgin.net>
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 17:11:38 -0000
Fwd Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 13:22:02 -0500
Subject: Taking the Heat Out Of 'The Heat'


Hi All,

Since there's a lot of in-fighting on this List, I think it is
time for a little humour after all if it can't be fun then what
the hell!

POINTS TO PONDER:

1). If someone with multiple personalities threatens to kill
    him/herself is it considered a hostage situation?

2). Is there another word for synonym?

3). Isn't it a bit unnerving that Doctors call what they do
    "Practice"

4). Where do Forest Rangers go to " Get away from it all"?

5). Why isn't there mouse-flavoured cat food?

6). What do you do when you see an endangered animal eating an
    endangered plant?

7). If a parsley farmer is sued, can they garnish his wages?

8). Would a fly without wings be called a walk?

9). Why do they lock Gas Station Bathrooms? Are they afraid
    someone will clean them !

10). If a Stealth Bomber crashes in a forest, will it make a sound?

11). If a turtle doesn't have a shell, is it homeless or naked?

12). Why dont sheep shrink when it rains?

13). Can vegetarians eat animal crackers?

14). If the police arrest a mime, do they tell him he has the
     right to remain silent?

15). Why do they put Braille on the drive-through bank machines?

16). How do they get deer to cross at that yellow road sign?

17). Why do they sterilise the needles for lethal injections?

18). Why did Kamikaze pilots wear helmets?


Well that's me for another day, take care people!

Issue 5 "Down To Earth Magazine" out now, the Magazine for
todays ufologist =A32.00 per issue

*******************************

"Proof by Perseverance" Watch the skies>>>>>>>>>>>>






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 21

                       Re: Military Retirees & Secrecy

From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 12:45:50 +0000
Fwd Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 13:35:53 -0500
Subject: Re: Military Retirees & Secrecy


>From: "Bob Shell" <bob@bobshell.com>
>Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 15:33:06 +0000
>Fwd Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 10:53:42 -0500
>Subject: Re: Military Retirees & Secrecy

>>From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
>>Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 09:17:48 +0000
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>Subject: Military Retirees & Secrecy

Previously, Bob had written:

>My father was a TV newsman until he retired. He signed on the
>very first TV station in this area and was there nearly 40
>years. Before that he was in Radio. He had the courage to cover
>the UFO flaps in Wytheville, Virginia, just down the road from
>here and went from skeptic to believer from interviewing
>ordinary people who had very extra-ordinary experiences.

>He was the newsman who dug up and broke the Frances Gary Powers
>story when the Soviets shot him down in a U2 spy plane, and he
>covered many other sensitive stories over the years.

>I asked him about this story of yours and he said "Bull***t!"


Bob, regarding your father:

Did you ask him if he ever worked in Houston?  No.

Did he, in fact, work in Houston?  No.

Did he work for the same station as my father?  No.

Did he work on the same remote crew?  No.

Did you ask him if he knew my father?  No.

Did he know my father?  No.

Did you ask him if he was aware of what happened to my father?
No.

Do you even know my father's name?   No.

In fact, there's _nothing_ you could possibly ask your father
that would confirm or deny what happened to my father, and you
know that.

You simply inquired about your father's _own_ experiences, which
is fine. But just because something like this did not happen to
your father does not mean it did not happen to mine, Bob, or
that it can't happen to anyone else.

If such a discrepency were an indicator of truth then I could
simply maintain that _your_ father's story is bullshit. Or I
could take the position that he was warned not to reveal that
such things happened to him. Or I could claim that you are just
making things up to take a counter point with my own position.

But why should I?

I find it reasonable that nothing happened to your father, and
I'm happy for him and can accept that.

On the other hand, you are calling my father a liar, which I do
not take lightly. Or, possibly, you are calling me a liar.
Neither is very flattering and quite uncalled for.

In fact, the few short months I've been involved with this List,
I've noticed your obvious disdain for anyone that might offer
information that relates to media such as photography, film or
video. When referring to Neil Morris' work on the RPIT, you said
you were waiting on CD ROMS of the material so you could put it
in the hands of a "real" photo analyst. What a cheap shot.

Odd, considering your earlier position that commercial scans
would be useless, anyway. It would appear the only real use of
the CD ROM to you was an opportunity in discussion to diss Neil
Morris about his efforts and the efforts of the RPIT.

Your comments in response to my own postings about AA were full
of contradictions about how many rolls were pushed, about your
access to the cameraman, about how the film was processed, about
which lenses were used, etc, etc. Yet you maintain the attitude
that only YOU are to be the one to say whether the AA footage is
real or not. Woe to anyone that might have a technical opinion,
otherwise, no matter how logical.

If you don't agree with my posts, that's okay. I don't always
agree with yours. But then, I'm not required to, despite what
you may think. More to the point, the world does not have to
agree with Bob Shell or bow to his approval.

If you have specific evidence that proves my father is not
telling the truth about what happend to him and his remote crew,
then lets see it. If all you have is your own father's word that
nothing like that ever happened to _him_, then leave it at that.

Do _not_ try to score hits on me by casting doubts on the
integrity of my father.

I won't stand for it.

Roger Evans





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 21

                       Re: R.A.M.S. - A Parting Shot?

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 12:16:40 -0600
Fwd Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 13:39:21 -0500
Subject: Re: R.A.M.S. - A Parting Shot?


>Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 13:19:36 +0000
>From: Robert A. M. Stephens <sti3818@montana.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: R.A.M.S. - A Parting Shot?

>>Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 03:27:49 -0600
>>From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>Subject: Re: R.A.M.S. - A Parting Shot?

>>No sir -- you did not. You trotted out the old, and very
>>competently discredited, NASA excuse.

>>>On four radio shows and in 9 email posts-detailed dissertations.
>>>STS-48, STS-80, = frozen ejecta from on orbit vehicles.

>>. . . And Dr. Haines, Dr. Kasher, and (I believe) Stanton
>>Friedman reduced your "frozen ejecta" to bull ejecta. Moreover,
>>your "9 email posts-detailed dissertations" detailed bupkus. Who
>>are you, really?

>Had you paid any attention at any time, I stated catagorically I
>would bring the whole tape of STS-48 and 80 to the U and Omaha
>to any of these 'experts' an challenge their 10 dollar per book
>ripoff analysis, for free, and show them what they are seeing.
>They refused. At least with Kasher's school.

What they are _seeing_, sir, are objects that stop _dead_ in
space, and then accelerate to alternate directions in a manner
not consistant with the shuttle's attitude thrusters. They are
seeing objects that should _not_ be seen given the initial
infinite focus of the space borne camera. They are seeing
objects that are _not_ accelerating in accordance with the speed
of the gas issuing from the shuttle's attitude thrusters. They
are seeing, sir, that which you merely *proclaim* _cannot_ be
there. As to their refusal to hear your *evidence*, well -- we
only have _your_ word for that, after all.

>I'll challenge anyone with the color tape of the full sequence.
>I see this stuff everyday. If you want UFOs, fine---UFOS in the
>mission tapes everywhere. Great. What could that crazy NASA
>know.

You must mean the same crazy NASA that discontinued live video
feeds right _after_ STS-48? The same crazy NASA that is so
effortlessly forthcoming, openly honest, and truthful? The same
crazy NASA that bases their whole rationalization on the absence
of intelligent extraterrestrial life to a supposition that our
shallowly understood physics won't allow them the energy to
travel from a point so far away? What would YOU know? Hail NASA?
The hell with NASA!

>You are as the rest. See whatever you like in the fuzzy B & W
>tape. Its hopeless anyway. Dr. Kasher and rest are welcome to
>distort reality all they wish.

I submit, sir, that it is _you_ who distorts reality; it is
_you_ that deepens our academic fog, and it is _you_  that
contributes to the general confusion describing the ufological
field, and its capacity to investigate, today. Dr. Kasher
testified that he went into the research fully expecting to bear
out _your_ weak contention -- but he couldn't make it fit. The
observable data did not support it. It seems he has the guts to
ask the hard questions, and you don't. What say you to _that_?

>They are the problem then, not I
>or NASA. I have a right to make that claim as much as you 'want'
>to see UFOs in the mission tapes. I say you're in error. You
>call me names.

Uh -- What _names_? Don't get me wrong, I'm not above it -- I
just don't think I've called you any. I could be wrong.

>Super. Get the color tapes from JSC and then you
>decide.

Your color tapes are a _red herring_, Mr. Stephens. The physics
that Dr. Kasher investigates on the black and white tape would
be identical to the physics on your very fishy color one.
Marylyn's white dress blows up from the grate the exact same
way, obeying the same physics, in color _or_ black and white.
Shame on your scurrilous misdirection; I remain unconvinced of
your veracity; you remain unconvincing.

Lehmberg@snowhill.com

--
Explore the Alien View!
Ponder the Wit & Wisdom of Ching Chow!

http://www.fortunecity.com/roswell/arecibo/46/

<Updated 18 January>

John Ford Restoration Fund -- Send your checks and
money orders to _me_, Alfred Lehmberg
(cut out the lawyers, they got their's) at:
304 Melbourne Drive, Enterprise AL, 36330. Strict records kept.

"Only thin, _very light_ envelopes with a return address will be
accepted <g>." ~~~ $225.00 pledged -- $125.00 collected ~~~

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see from
afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, while burning at the
fundamentalist's stake.






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 21

                           Re: UFO Communication?

From: Mark Cashman <mcashman@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 14:31:53 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 23:30:30 -0500
Subject: Re: UFO Communication?

>From: R=E9al Arsenault <aviano291@hotmail.com>
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Re: UFO Communication?
>Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 20:58:47 PST

Hi, R=E9al!

>Another prospect that probably wasn't mentioned before...
>Extremely Low Frequency (ELF)

I didn't mention it, because it basically falls into the radio
category. But it certainly is a valid alternative. The drawback,
however, as I understand it, is the very low bandwidth of ELF or
as it is sometimes called, VLF.

As far as I know, the penetrance of VLF is based on the
wavelength, not on any interaction with the earth's magnetic
field.

As in the other examples I mentioned, VLF could, of course, be
used to carry analog information or digital information.

>These craft may be using 'hyper-magnetized/polarised'
>light-beams to communicate with others, through Earth's
>eletro-magnetic field. These fields may go far beyond our
>planet's atmosphere, and would easily be picked-up by any other
>'listeners' from our Earth and outer-Earth.

Not to pick on you, R=E9al, but I don't think there is any such
thing as "magnetized" light.

>As you may already have noticed, my name may not be familiar to
>you all. I sincerely do hope that I wasn't interfering with your
>discussions. If this was the case, just tell me so.

You shouldn't be concerned about that. Anyone on this List
should be able to speak their mind, though, equally, they must
expect to meet vigorous (and hopefully, informed) debate, in the
event they use terms loosely, contradict known evidence, or
offer an otherwise controversial proposal.

That's how the field advances.

------
Mark Cashman, creator of The Temporal Doorway at
http://www.temporaldoorway.com
- Original digital art, writing, and UFO research -

UFO cases, analysis, classification systems, and more...
http://www.temporaldoorway.com/ufo.htm
------





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 21

                       Re: Military Retirees & Secrecy

From: Bob Shell <bob@bobshell.com>
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 15:07:34 +0000
Fwd Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 23:35:15 -0500
Subject: Re: Military Retirees & Secrecy


>From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
>Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 12:45:50 +0000
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Military Retirees & Secrecy

>You simply inquired about your father's _own_ experiences, which
>is fine. But just because something like this did not happen to
>your father does not mean it did not happen to mine, Bob, or
>that it can't happen to anyone else.

Fair enough. He said nothing like this ever happened to him,
anyone he knew, or anyone he ever heard of, and he doubted that
it ever happened to anyone. He was hassled by govt types over
the Powers story, but he believed that the public had a right to
know, so he ran it anyway. No one attempted to confiscate his
photos or tapes (audio in those days) and film.

Did your father run the stories anyway?

>In fact, the few short months I've been involved with this List,
>I've noticed your obvious disdain for anyone that might offer
>information that relates to media such as photography, film or
>video. When referring to Neil Morris' work on the RPIT, you said
>you were waiting on CD ROMS of the material so you could put it
>in the hands of a "real" photo analyst. What a cheap shot.

Neil Morris is not a professional photo analyst. I'm sure he
will agree with that statement. I am not putting him down when I
say he has neither the knowledge nor equipment to do this job
properly.

Neil and I have been in touch, and he shows no signs of being
offended by my comments or approach.

>Odd, considering your earlier position that commercial scans
>would be useless, anyway. It would appear the only real use of
>the CD ROM to you was an opportunity in discussion to diss Neil
>Morris about his efforts and the efforts of the RPIT.

I have forwarded the CD Stan sent me to a professional photo
analyst for a looksee. He doubted he could do anything with
someone else's scans, but agreed to take a look when he has
time. If he gets interested enough, he may try to arrange to
scan the negatives himself.

>Your comments in response to my own postings about AA were full
>of contradictions about how many rolls were pushed, about your
>access to the cameraman, about how the film was processed, about
>which lenses were used, etc, etc. Yet you maintain the attitude
>that only YOU are to be the one to say whether the AA footage is
>real or not. Woe to anyone that might have a technical opinion,
>otherwise, no matter how logical.

Please approach on bended knee and address me properly as Sire
when you say stuff like that!!

Technical opinions are only valid when backed by technical
_knowledge_ to support them.

>If you don't agree with my posts, that's okay. I don't always
>agree with yours. But then, I'm not required to, despite what
>you may think. More to the point, the world does not have to
>agree with Bob Shell or bow to his approval.

OK, guess I'll have to learn to live with that.

Bob






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 21

                   Ziff-Davis TV: Friday Chat With Firmage

From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@get2net.dk>
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 22:48:05 +0100 (MET)
Fwd Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 23:42:46 -0500
Subject: Ziff-Davis TV: Friday Chat With Firmage


Source: Ziff-Davis TV,

http://www.zdnet.com/zdtv/newscobrand/features/story/
0,3730,2189860,00.html

Links are preceded by asterisks.

Stig

***

Mulder Meets the Valley?

Come chat with Joe Firmage, the Silicon Valley pioneer who just
quit USWeb to search for extraterrestrial life, Friday, January
22, from 7 to 8 PM ET.

By Iolande Bloxsom   January 20, 1999

Joe Firmage, the former USWeb CEO, recently told ZDNN he
believes the truth is out there.

In an interview with ZDNN's Michael Fitzgerald, Firmage, who is
being called the Fox Mulder of Silicon Valley, says he doesn't
have much in common with the TV character.

"Maybe the ability to generate advertising revenue for
newspapers," sniffs Firmage, who was CEO of Web-services firm
USWeb/CKS until late last week, when he resigned to promote a
new book that includes discussions of his belief in
extraterrestrials. Firmage said that comparing him to The
X-Files' dogged conspiracy theorist "is an exaggeration that's
not particularly fair."

Firmage did tell ZDNN, "I believe in extraterrestrial
visitation; I believe in UFOs."

**

To watch the unedited interview with Joe Firmage, just click the
video icon to the right.  *ZDTV News

Get *RealPlayer.

Come *chat live with Firmage this Friday, from 7 to 8 PM EST.

And get all the *details on the unusual CEO from ZDNN.

**

Also on zdtv.com:

*ZDTV Chat Quick Start
*Fox Mulder of Silicon Valley
*UFOs: The Truth Is... Online
*Looking for E.T.
*Donna Shirley, Martian Chronicler

zdnet links:

*Firmage: I'm not Fox Mulder

Sponsored links:

* Click here for software book-related merchandise


Copyright =A9 1997-99 Ziff-Davis TV Inc. All Rights
Reserved.
We respect your privacy.







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 21

                       Re: The State of Ufology Today

From: Larry Clark <lclark@ibm.net>
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 17:18:20 -0000
Fwd Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 23:56:42 -0500
Subject: Re: The State of Ufology Today


>From: Jim Bouck <JGBOUCK@aol.com>
>Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 02:14:55 EST
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Re: The State of Ufology Today

>>Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 22:03:12 -0500
>>From: Gary <galevy@pipeline.com>
>>To: UFO UpDate <updates@globalserve.net>
>>Subject: The State of UFOlogy Today

><snip>

>In response to Gary Alevy's attack on George Filer, I would just
>like to say that my ten year old can criticize more
>intelligently then you.

<snip>

Dear Mr Bouck:

Having been the object of your attacks, both publicly and
privately, as well as to people from you who do not even know
me, I find your criticism of G. Alevy perculiar and
self-serving. It makes for good public posture.

Larry Clark
www.nymufon.org





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 22

                            Filer's Files #3-1999

From: George A. Filer <Majorstar@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 16:54:31 EST
Fwd Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 00:04:26 -0500
Subject: Filer's Files #3-1999


Filer's Files #3-1999, MUFON Skywatch Investigations
George A. Filer, MUFON Eastern Director,
January 21, 1999,  Majorstar@aol.com (609) 654-0020

TWO HEROES OF UFOLOGY PASS AWAY

Today has become a day to mourn, as we all lost two friends of
the UFO community. Betty Cash and Doc Barry and were important
personalities in this field and will be deeply missed. My heart
felt sympathy go out to their families. They both deserve to
belong to the UFO Hall of Fame. Perhaps when the history of the
world is written and the true importance of UFOs is recognized,
they will receive their just rewards. Doc gave much of his time
in an attempt to uncover the secrets of the UFOs. Betty suffered
from ionizing radiation poisoning after coming too close to a
UFO on December 29.1980. She was always willing to help others
suffering from UFO close encounters. John Schuessler did a
thorough and excellent investigation of the
case. May Doc and Betty rest in peace.

NEW YORK SIGHTINGS

POUGHQUAG--Larry Clark reports on December 25, 1998, a couple
saw an object while driving home on Rt. 684. The UFO had a red
light on one side and a green light on the other side. It seemed
to be in the shape of a jet, but it was hovering what I
estimated to be a few hundred feet up. We are familiar with the
patterns of aircraft in this area and never saw anything similar
to it before. There was no sound.

HUDSON FALLS--On January 7, 1999, A woman reports: My partner
and I were in our car driving to Glens Falls in Upstate New
York, when something in the sky caught our attention. I first
thought they were airplane lights, but the strange thing was,
there were two sets of them, traveling side by side. They seemed
to hover for a bit, and then one of them began to change
direction. I followed this one until it settled to another spot
in the sky. Here, it stayed, appearing to be a very bright star.
The brightness was very intense, yet it seemed almost "white."
If I hadn't seen it moving and change direction, I would have
thought it was just a star. It stayed there for 20 minutes, and
disappeared. I then looked for the other set of lights. Now, I
could now see a whole line of lights. It was moving, but not
like an airplane would move, it seemed as though it was
"gliding." Then, it just wasn't there anymore.

SARATOGA COUNTY--A reporter from the Troy Record contacted me
for an interview. He mentioned having gathered reports from the
Corinth area in Saratoga County the previous summer. I mentioned
the numerous reports from the Saratoga Springs area as well as
the new video. From that interview came a local TV news segment
on UFO activity in the Saratoga area that showed some of the
footage taken of objects over Saratoga Lake. Subsequent to the
news coverage, I have been contacted by ten people who have
reported personal sightings in the Saratoga area. Thanks to
Larry Clark www.nymufon.org

NEW JERSEY

This sighting occurred on January 21, 1997, in northwestern
corner of New Jersey. It was 8:15 AM and my eye caught a jet
flying in my direction. I would by lying if I gave an estimate
of its altitude. It was flying high enough to leave a jet trail
and low enough to be easily viewed. Just then a second jet
flying at a slightly higher altitude but parallel and only
slightly behind the first plane came into view. I know little
about flight, but it didn't seem normal. At this point I glanced
back at the first jet that was now closer to me. Directly in
front of it and so close that at first they seemed to be
tethered like an airplane and glider was a V-shaped object. It
dwarfed the jet. I have never seen anything that big flying at
such an altitude. It was at least ten times the size of the jet.
I have read about the flying triangles and V- shaped objects and
it was a V. It reflected the sunlight just like the jets did.
There didn't seem to be any turbulence to upset the flight of
the first jet. The second jet seemed to almost be pacing or
guarding this odd couple. As they approached, I ran for my
camera and binoculars. By the time I found them, the craft
passed over my house. I stuck my head out of the small window. I
saw the "V" over the back of my house, but no jet. It took me a
few seconds to realize that it had sped up and was waiting for
the jet. As the first jet came into view, it took up its close
relationship again. At this point, the jet began to bank to the
right and the second jet, still on its parallel path joined it.
The "V" apparently kept going. The jets then made a U-turn and
departed. Thanks CAUS and Charles Stuart for this report

ALABAMA METEOR

TARRANT CITY--My husband called me on January 17, 1999, shortly
after he drove into Birmingham traveling south on Highway 79. He
sighted what he believes to be a meteor. He said, "It was the
largest he had ever seen and it was in broad daylight between
4:30 PM and 5:00 PM CST. It was as large as his fist on his
extended arm. The body of this fireball itself was a brilliant
white color and it had a red and green tail. It was traveling
from north to south and was about 45 degrees above the horizon
falling slightly." Thanks to Charlie Plyler Elfrad Group.
Footnote: The photos of meteors taken in both Georgia and Alaska
appear very similar while earthquakes were reported in Tecumseh
& New Madrid, AL at 18:38 the same day. Kent Steadman
http://members.aol.com/phikent/orbit/orbit.html

TEXAS

FORT WORTH--Steve Hudgeons reports that a photographer from the
Fort Worth Star Telegram photographed an UFO on November 30,
1998, around 4:45 PM. The object grew from a small spot, slowly,
into an extremely bright light one- forth the size of the sun.
The object fell at a fast rate of speed, hovered, then slowly
moved off to the West. Seven photographs were taken at various
distances. These photo's may be featured in the next MUFON
Journal. Get your sneak peek in the "SIGHTING" section at: DFW
Chapter website: MUFON_DFW
http://home.swbell.net/comcody/mufon.html comcody@swbell.net.
Thanks to Steve Hudgeons, Jr. MUFON Field Investigator and
Webmaster.

CALIFORNIA

PALMDALE--January 17, 1999, Tonight we had a bit of activity in
the Antelope Valley. A woman called a friend of ours from
Lancaster just north of Palmdale. Starting at 7:00 PM she saw a
very bright white light from her home near Avenue M and Sierra
Highway. This light was coming from an object that started
hovering near a cleaning business. It was saucer-shaped with a
dome on top. It also had red and blue lights associated with it.
A blue and gold vapor hung around the object as it hovered
silently. I stationed myself near the end of the runway near Air
Force Plant 42 and Lockheed. I scanned lights to the north but
could not detect anything unusual. When I got back home I was
put in touch with the woman who reported it. She said her
neighbor saw the object initially. It hovered very low near the
building about 800 feet from her. It apparently came back after
disappearing from view for a while but disappeared again. We
told her to call us if she sees it again. Thanks to: Bill
Hamilton Executive Director Skywatch International, Inc. "

NORTHERN IRELAND

BALLYWALTER COUNTY DOWN--On Sunday, January 17, 1999, a disc
shaped object was video-taped for about 30 seconds over the
Irish Sea at about 8:15 AM GMT. The UFO was heading in a
Northeast direction at 1500 to 2000 feet. The weather was good
with very little high clouds. The UFO was observed by three
people and was reported to the newspaper who ran the front page
story on the 18th and followed up on the next day with a report
on page 9. The Irish Centre for UFO Studies have started a full
investigation into the sighting and will try to find out what
they saw. Anyone wanting to get further information can contact
me here at ic.ufos@virgin.net. Thanks to Alan and
skypost@unix.ltlb.com.

ITALY UFO MOTHERSHIP

TRENTINO ALPS--On December 26, 1998, at 12:15 a.m., a very large
UFO, described as "a mothership" and "a flying cigar," was seen
passing over Merlengo. This is a small town near Bolzano 330
miles north of Rome. "The object appeared stationary and at an
altitude of 2,500 meters," reported Fabrizio Monaco of Comitato
Internazionale per lo Studio delle Intelligenze Extraterrestri
(CISETI). "It was traveling at about 600 kilometers per hour but
appeared to vanish. The phenomenon lasted about one and a half
minutes. When the large cigar-shaped UFO departed, "the object
was illuminated by a luminous flash," Thanks to Fabrizio Monaco.
PADOVA--On December 21, 1998, at 11:30 p.m., a glowing disc was
seen at Stra near Padova, located about 375 kilometers north of
Rome. Giuseppe Isanelli was in his home when he saw a bright
flash outdoors. "I saw above a field an object of circular form
about six meters (20 feet) in diameter." "The field was
illuminated as bright as daylight by an object hovering in the
sky 300 meters away. It was of a circular form and had its own
lights," Isanelli said. "The object moved slowly at first and
quickly gained velocity, heading for Padova." Centro Ufologico
Nazionale (CUN) is investigating. (See the Italian newspaper Il
Gazzetino di Padova 12/21/98) Thanks to Joe Trainor editor of
UFO Roundup Vol. 4 #3, 1/15/99 and Francesco Rosati e Alfredo
Lissoni.

FINLAND

Joseph Trainor reports: Ufologists in Finland are looking into a
reported air battle between a Finnish jet fighter and a squadron
of five UFOs. According to Lars Osterman, the dogfight took
place on March 31, 1997, in northern Finland. Local researchers
learned of it when the pilot, whose name has been kept under
wraps, phoned a radio talk show and reportedly said he was
"having trouble dealing with" the experience. The fighter was an
F-18A Hornet of the Suomen Ilmaviomat (Finnish Air Force), which
was posted to the Lapin Lennosto (Far North Air Department) air
base at Rovaniemi, 400 kilometers (240 miles) north of Helsinki.
The F-18 took off on "a routine 960-kilometer patrol of the
border" with Russia. As the jet flew over the frozen tundra
southeast of Lake Inarijarvi, the pilot spotted three discoid
UFOs flying in a northeasterly direction. Going in for a closer
look, the pilot saw that "there seemed to be five saucers,
instead of just three." He then radioed Rovaniemi and advised
them of the situation. Lapin Lennosto Flight Control ordered him
to intercept the objects. The five UFOs, described by the pilot
as "glowing orange objects," veered sharply to the Northwest.
The F-18 pursued them to Ivalo, a city 200 kilometers (120
miles) north of Rovaniemi. >From there, the F-18 chased the
saucers west to Inari, 40 kilometers (24 miles) to the
Northwest. Then the saucers darted eastward, high above Lake
Inarijarvi. The pilot told Flight Control that the UFOs were
breaking formation and requested permission to fire at them.
Flight Control responded, "Permission granted. Fire at will."
The pilot got behind one glowing saucer and lined it up with the
reticule on his windshield "heads up" display. But instead of
picking up the "target acquisition tone" in his earphones, he
heard the raucous honk of an alarm. All at once, the targeting
computer went off- line. The "heads up" display disappeared. The
F-18's firing system for the 20 mm cannon was also down.
Instantly the pilot hit the "arming" switch for his air-to-air
missiles. The red Malfunction light began blinking on the
dashboard. The saucers regrouped and flew away to the East "at
Mach 4 or 5. They had an orange glow around them." None of the
F-18's flight control systems were affected, and the pilot
returned safely to Rovaniemi. "They tested the computers for
days but could find nothing wrong with them," The saucers were
last seen heading for Talvikula, Russia. Thanks to UFO
RoundupVol.4, #1, 1/5/99.

NEW MEXICO IMAGES

TIM EDWARDS wrote: Santiago has informed me that the engineer
that took the stills on Aug. 27, 1995, has calculated the craft
by the mountains to be 10 to 12 kilometers away from the camera.
The craft was a kilometer across which makes our eyewitness
estimate in Salida] of a mile across pretty darn close.
Overwhelming stills and video of these massive crafts continue
to escalate. Almost nobody will attempt to archive, bring
together, or even report the correlation and the evidence of the
cigar crafts to present as a package of evidence. Most big name
researchers are too busy on conspiracy theories and ancient
history and ignore the reality and evidence that are in the
skies right now. The footages, stills, and eyewitness
testimonies beg for scientific analysis and scrutiny. I have
tried for 3 years to bring this together. Is there any help out
there? Thanks to Tim Edwards

MACHINE MADE OUT OF DNA

Denver Rocky Mountain News, January 14, 1999, by Rick Callahan.
Scientists have made a moving part out of a few strands of DNA
-- a step toward building incredible tiny "machines" that could
someday perform intricate jobs such as building computer
circuits and clearing clogged blood vessels in the brain.

The hinge-like part, which bends on cue, is just
four-ten-thousandths of the width of a human hair. The new work
isn't the first time scientists have turned chemical compounds
into moving parts. But previous examples have been hampered by
their floppy nature. The DNA device, however, is particularly
rigid and executes motions 10 times bigger, lead researcher
Nadrian C. Seeman at New York University. The findings were
reported in today's issue of the journal NATURE. The team hopes
to eventually build other moving parts using DNA, including
"arms" and "fingers" that someday could be mounted on a micro-
robot.

The work is the latest twist in the fledgling field of
nanotechnology, or technology at an atomic scale. "This is a
very beautiful demonstration of construction at that scale of a
device that's actually functioning," said Daniel T. Colbert of
Rice University's Center for Nanoscale Science and Technology.
"We're kind of in the children's playtime toddler era of doing
this. We've been thrown some blocks and Legos and Tinker Toys,"
he said. "We're just kind of picking them up and trying to
assemble things out of them that can perform something useful."
Thanks to: John F. Schuessler

MJ --12 DOCUMENTS CONTROVERSY

Kevin Randle writes that Dr. Richard Haines wrote about the new
MJ-12 documents: > Of course the burden of proof lies with the
debunkers, since the documents are >claimed to be authentic and
not vice versa. No. No. No. That is not the way it works. Since
there is no provenance for the documents, other than the
mysterious Cantwheel and since I can't FOIA various government
agencies to get copies of these documents, and since there is no
direct link from the government to MJ-12, these are, in fact,
questioned documents. The burden on proof is not on us to prove
them fake, but upon those who believe them to be authentic to
prove them authentic. How can a respected scientist like Dr.
Haines twist this around? There is good evidence that the
documents contain anachronisms and each of those suggest the
documents are fraudulent. For example, in a document dated in
1951 or 1952, General Hoyt S. Vandenberg is referred to as the
Vice Chief of Staff, though by the time the document was
allegedly created, he was the Chief of Staff. This sort of
mistake would not be made at this level. This is not the only
such mistake. This twisting of scientific principles is one of
the major problems with all of Ufology. We get it backwards and
then wonder why science rejects what we say. Without a
provenance, there is nothing but a group of papers that are
somewhat interesting. Thanks to Kevin Randle. Editors Note: I
feel that we can disagree and learn from each other.

PROTECT EARTH FROM SPACE ALIENS

WASHINGTON USA Today January 18, 1999, reports the government is
making plans for the first time in three decades to protect
Earth from potentially dangerous extraterrestrial life forms.
Contaminants, virulent microbes, infectious organisms -- all are
possible as NASA retrieves samples from places like Mars during
unprecedented space exploration in the new millennium. "If there
is a living organism in a sample you bring back, you don't just
want to let it out," said Margaret Race, a biologist at the
Search for Extraterrestrial Intelligence Institute in Mountain
View, Calif. Quietly and without announcing it, scientists will
begin meeting next month to recommend ways to contain any space
bugs. The Agriculture and Interior departments and the
Environmental Protection Agency will look at protecting crops,
livestock, air and water. The National Institutes of Health and
the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention are involved
because of possible human risks from disease. The National
Science Foundation has experience with organisms that live in
extreme environments like Antarctica. Not since the first of the
manned Apollo moon missions in July 1969 has the government had
such a worry. But over the next decade, unmanned craft will be
launched to carry back soil, dust and particles from Mars,
comets, asteroids and the sun. Scientists agree that risks are
slim, but they're taking no chances. "That's the most cautious
way to proceed," NASA's John Rummel said. Thanks to Stig
Agermose.

CEO OF USWEB RESIGNS TO STUDY UFO's

Joe Firmage a multi-millionaire was interviewed by CNN's Don
Knapp on January 13, 1999, at 12:38 a.m. ET. Silicon Valley CEO
Joe Firmage Pursues UFO Science after Encounter. DONNA KELLEY,
CNN ANCHOR: Well, those of you who believe in UFO's have a
wealthy new ally. LOU WATERS, CNN ANCHOR: Yes you do. His name
is Joe Firmae. He was the CEO of a Silicon Valley company until
he had what he calls a very unusual experience. Here's CNN's Don
Knapp. (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) DON KNAPP, CNN CORRESPONDENT
(voice-over): Don't call him the UFO- CEO. Joe Firmage has had
just about enough of that since going public last week with his
views on UFO's, aliens and space travel. JOE FIRMAGE, USWEB
FOUNDER: It is definitely painful to go through what I have in
the past few days. KNAPP: The multi-millionaire founder of USWEB
resigned as CEO, he says, to spare his company any bad press
while he pursues his interest in what he calls new scientific
theories, like how UFO's fly. FIRMAGE: The only objection that
science has put forward to the UFO phenomenon is that we can't
control gravity. Well, these new papers are suggesting that very
soon we may be well be able to control gravity. KNAPP: These
papers are detailed on his 600-page Web book at
thewordistruth.org. Tuesday he tripled the Web site's capacity,
but it still couldn't keep up with all the interest in such
things as his encounter. FIRMAGE: I never referred to the words
visitation or alien in that experience that I did in fact have
about 15 months ago. It was a very unusual experience, but I
would compare it more to a near-death experience. KNAPP: Firmage
suggests that Silicon Valley and the high-tech industry
benefited from a UFO crash at Roswell, New Mexico, in 1947,
suggesting that perhaps what was recovered from the crash was
analyzed in government laboratories. It's this last part that
tends to annoy some in Silicon Valley. MICHAEL MALIAN, SILICON
VALLEY HISTORIAN: These were very hard-working people of the
last 50 years, and they, you know, plunged on and they managed
to create these great products. And now somebody comes along and
says, no, it was just aliens whispering in your ear, giving you
the ideas. KNAPP: To prove it may require rewriting the books of
science. Firmage says he has the money and the time to try to do
just that. Thanks to The ZDNet News, stig.agermose [Don Knapp
www.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/9901/13/tod.06.html

SUMMARY of UFO REPORTS IN 1998

During 1998, the number of UFO sighting reports in the Filer
Files by state follows: Georgia=43, New Jersey =37, Florida =24,
New York=21, Colorado =17, California =14, Pennsylvania=14,
Michigan=13, Arizona =11, Ohio=11, Texas =10, New Mexico =7,
North Carolina=7, Virginia=6, Oklahoma=5, Arkansas=5,
Illinois=5, Indiana=5, Alabama 4=, Connecticut =4, New Hampshire
=4, Oregon=4, Vermont =3, Missouri=2, South Carolina =2, Puerto
Rico =2, West Virginia =2, Tennessee =2, Utah =2, Delaware =1,
Mississippi=1, Washington, =1 and Wyoming=1. The total is 290
reports. During 1998, the number of UFO sightings reported by
country to me follows: United Kingdom =26, Australia=15, Canada
=12, Chile =6, China =4, Brazil =4, Norway=3, Belgium =2,
Austria =2, Germany =2, Spain, =2, Scotland =2, Bermuda =1,
Finland =1, New Zealand =1, Somoa =1, Sri Lanka =1. Total 83.
Not all reports are covered due to lack of time and space. These
also represent the better reports.

GET THE BEST REALTORS AND HELP UFO RESEARCH As a special aid to
our readers, we can help you obtain the best real estate experts
in your area at no cost to you. Make sure you have a top notch
agent, to buy or sell your home often your biggest investment.
We provide free relocation information and consulting services
from the largest and most respected firms. If you are planning
to sell or buy a home and would like a top flight real estate
agent give me a call at 609 654-0020 or E-mail me at
Majorstar@aol.com. Please send your name, phone number, address,
price range and location to move.

MUFON JOURNAL For more detailed investigative reports subscribe
by writing to 103 Oldtowne Road, Sequin, TX 78155-4099 or E-mail
Mufon@aol.com. Filer's Files Copyright 1998 by George A. Filer,
all rights reserved. Readers may post items from the Files on
their Websites provided that they credit the newsletter and its
editor by name and list the date of issue that the item
appeared. Send your letters to George Filer at
Majorstar@aol.com. If you wish to keep your name confidential
please so state.






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 22

                          Re: Guilt By Association?

From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net>
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 14:22:09 -0800
Fwd Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 00:08:17 -0500
Subject: Re: Guilt By Association?


>Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 03:28:38 +0000
>From: Philip Mantle - UFO <pmufo@dial.pipex.com>
>Subject: Re: Guilt By Association?

>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>>From: Sean Jones <seanj@tedric.demon.co.uk>
>>>Subject: Guilt By Association?

>>>With the "Tent Footage" fully debunked by Tim and Phil, the
>>>Alien Autopsy must also be fake/hoaxed/bogus purely because it
>>>came from the same mill does it not?

>>>I wonder is it time to take a vote people? All those who
>>>believe the AA genuine hold your hands up, OK now all you who
>>>think its fake hold your hands up.

>>My hand is up. I think its fake. [ -LH ]

>Between us I think we've proven, beyond reasonable doubt, that
>the tent footage is indeed a fake, the same, however, cannot as
>yet be said about the rest of the Santilli film. Hopefully, in
>time, we will be able to offer enoughproof and not rely on
>opinions.


Philip: Sean asked for a vote of opinions, not proof, which
nobody seems to have yet. I responded as requested.

As for the subject line "Guilt by Association", I don't think
it quite fits.

If I conclude that B. is a thief because he is a close buddy of
A., a known thief, that is "guilt by association" and
inadmissible in court.

If C. publishes "D" something proven to be a hoax, and then C
also publishes "E", ..well "E" is highly suspect and rightly so.

Even though I and many others would prefer otherwise, I still
think the AA film is a fake.

Best wishes

- Larry Hatch








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 22

                       Re: Military Retirees & Secrecy

From: Neil Morris <neil@adm1.ph.man.ac.uk>
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 22:34:56 -0800
Fwd Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 00:15:21 -0500
Subject: Re: Military Retirees & Secrecy


>From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
>Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 12:45:50 +0000
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Military Retirees & Secrecy

>>From: "Bob Shell" <bob@bobshell.com>
>>Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 15:33:06 +0000
>>Fwd Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 10:53:42 -0500
>>Subject: Re: Military Retirees & Secrecy


<snip>

>In fact, the few short months I've been involved with this List,
>I've noticed your obvious disdain for anyone that might offer
>information that relates to media such as photography, film or
>video. When referring to Neil Morris' work on the RPIT, you said
>you were waiting on CD ROMS of the material so you could put it
>in the hands of a "real" photo analyst. What a cheap shot.

>Odd, considering your earlier position that commercial scans
>would be useless, anyway. It would appear the only real use of
>the CD ROM to you was an opportunity in discussion to diss Neil
>Morris about his efforts and the efforts of the RPIT.

>Your comments in response to my own postings about AA were full
>of contradictions about how many rolls were pushed, about your
>access to the cameraman, about how the film was processed, about
>which lenses were used, etc, etc. Yet you maintain the attitude
>that only YOU are to be the one to say whether the AA footage is
>real or not. Woe to anyone that might have a technical opinion,
>otherwise, no matter how logical.


Rodger,

Hey man don't drag ME into this!!

You're quite right, you've only been on this List a few months,
and obviously don't know that Bob and I go back a "little
longer". We first bumped into each other back in 1995 _and_ have
had many many excellent exchanges both on UPDATES and via
private email.

I hold both Bob _and_ his opinions "photographic" in _very_ high
regard.

Ok, we don't agree on everything _but_ I have no problem with
that AND I still hope to change Bobs mind in the future.<g>

Friends and collegues are _allowed_ to have their own opinions
Rodger.

_But_ they're _sstill_ friends and collegues.

(Bob MY CD's are "almost" on their way to you, I hope they may
have you reconsider your stance)

Best Regards to All,
Neil. (Not nibbling at the bait)


-------------------------------------------------------

Neil Morris@Home.
Email:             Neil@adm1.ph.man.ac.uk






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 22

                    Re: Taking the Heat Out Of 'The Heat'

From: John Rimmer <magonia@magonia.demon.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 22:33:03 +0000
Fwd Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 00:23:54 -0500
Subject: Re: Taking the Heat Out Of 'The Heat'


>From: Roy Hale <roy.hale@virgin.net>
>To: <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Taking the Heat Out Of 'The Heat'
>Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 17:11:38 -0000


>POINTS TO PONDER:

<snip>

19). Why is there only one Monopolies Commission?





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 22

                   Re: Astronomers Get Ready To Call E.T.

From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@get2net.dk>
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 23:38:11 +0100 (MET)
Fwd Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 00:27:38 -0500
Subject: Re: Astronomers Get Ready To Call E.T.


Forwarded from "alt.alien.visitors".

Stig

***

From: twitchb@worldnet.att.net
Newsgroups:
sci.skeptic,alt.alien.research,alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Astronomers Get Ready to Call E.T.
Date: 21 Jan 1999 18:04:38 GMT

Thought this might be of interest to some on these newsgroups.

***

Astronomers Get Ready to Call E.T.

**

Physicists are announcing today that they have designed a
message to be broadcast in the direction of nearby stars in
order to search for extra-terrestrial intelligence.

This project is being presented by Dr. Yvan Dutil and Stephane
Dumas from the Defence Research Establishment Valcartier, near
Quebec City (Canada), to the American Astronomical Society
meeting in Austin, TX.  This is the first time in a quarter of a
century that such a cosmic call will be attempted. This
experiment is promoted by the Encounter 2001 project, an
international spaceflight project which is planned for launch
into interstellar space in the year 2001.

The complete message is about 400,000 bits long and will be
transmitted three times over a 3-hour period in the direction of
the four selected stars. Then, it will be followed by a series
of greetings from people around the world. The transmission will
start on March 15 1999. This message is much larger in size,
duration and scope than the one sent by Frank Drake on November
16th, 1974 from the Arecibo observatory which consisted of only
1,679 bits sent over a 3 minute duration.

Finding a transmitter for this task was not easy; the project
will use a 70 m (230 ft) Ukrainian antenna equipped with a 150
kW transmitter broadcasting at 5 GHz (6 cm). Using this antenna,
any civilization within 100 light-years which has access to a
radio-telescope with an area of one squared-kilometer will be
able to read the message. The artificial nature of the message
should be able to be detected by similar instruments at
distances up to 10,000 light-years. A radio-telescope of this
size will be built on Earth in the near future.

The message itself has been designed using some of the
principles of interstellar communication proposed in the early
works of Hans Freudenthal, Frank Drake and Carl Sagan.
Mathematics and physics have been used to define the message, so
that it will be clear and based on universal concepts. For
example, the hydrogen atom can be used to describe quantities
such as mass, electric charge and length. To these basic ideas
were added simple notions of astronomy, biology, geography and
cosmology. Easier concepts and ideas are at the beginning while
the more elaborate ones appear at the end of the message. Any
true communication is not complete without an answer. Therefore,
the last page of the message invites anyone who reads it to
reply, sending information about themselves.

The message has been built to minimize the loss of information
due to noise introduced into the signal during its interstellar
flight. To minimize the risk of confusion, a set of characters
was created which are fairly different from each other.
Redundant information is included to allow cross-checking of the
message. The addition of a frame around each page of the
message, and the inclusion of page and section numbers will also
help the translation process.

For many years, most research projects dedicated to the Search
for Extra-Terrestrial Intelligence (SETI) have scanned the sky
trying to detect any signals sent by extra-terrestrial
civilizations willing to communicate with us. So far, the sky
has remained silent. All these searches have been passive: what
is proposed now is to send a message in order to catch the
attention of an extra-terrestrial civilization.

In order to maximize the probability of detection, the direction
of the transmission has been carefully chosen to include stars
similar to our Sun, and to limit the degradation of the signal
as it travels through the vast reaches of interstellar space.
Fortunately, there is a region between the spiral arms of our
galaxy where the signal can be transmitted over long distances
without too much degradation. This region is situated between 50
and 90 degrees of galactic longitude, which corresponds roughly
to the region of the sky called the "Summer Triangle". Four
stars, clones of our Sun, have been selected from the list made
by the SETI institute. These target stars are located at
distances between 50 and 70 light-years from the Sun.


Target List:


Names      l  |b|  a (J2000)     d (J2000)     Type
D(Lyr)  V

HD190360  67   1  20h03m37.41s  +29d53m48.51s  G7V
51.8   5.73

HD190406  57   8  20h04m06.23s  +17d04m12.64s  G1V
57.6   5.08

HD186408  83  13  19h41m48.95s  +50d31m30.21s  G3V
70.5   5.99

HD178428  50   4  19h07m57.32s  +16d51m12.24s  G6V
68.3   6.08

Table headings: l and |b| are the coordinates of the target star
in galactic latitude and (absolute) longitude, while a and d
give the Right Ascension and Declination of the star in the
J2000 coordinate system. The star's spectral type is given next;
for comparison, our Sun is a G2V. The next column gives the
distances to each star in light years. The last column gives the
Visual magnitude (brightness) of each star.

You can also visit the web site of the Encounter 2001 project:

http://www.encounter2001.com/main.shtml

---
Andrew Yee

ayee@nova.astro.utoronto.ca







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 22

                       Re: R.A.M.S. - A Parting Shot?

From: Robert A. M. Stephens <sti3818@montana.com>
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 15:59:09 +0000
Fwd Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 00:34:48 -0500
Subject: Re: R.A.M.S. - A Parting Shot?


>Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 22:36:07 +0000
>From: Dave Ledger <dledger@cableinet.co.uk>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: R.A.M.S. - A Parting Shot?

>First and foremost, I fail to see how you can possibly put all
>of the anomalous objects, clearly seen in the STS-80 footage,
>down to waste ejections from the shuttle and such-like. This is
>absurd! One of the objects in the footage seems to be very
>large (main object) and does not behave in a manner consistent
>with space junk or Ice. This large object appears to be under
>some kind of intelligent control at least from what I can see.At
>one point it seems that there are two additional objects which
>seem to be on intercept/rendezvous type courses toward the large
>main anomaly.(Space Junk?) Also if it is indeed space junk and
>ejected waste etc, why do all the objects seem to move at
>different speeds? Are they all caught in different thruster
>blasts of different strengths? from different directions?
>Perhaps you can clarify this point for me.

I have answered this in great depth in 9 differnet venues, in
detail, over and over. Still, I am told I have not. This logic
virtually escapes me. It is virtually hopeless. Here it is
again, you need to get the color tapes of these missions from
JSC-NASA. They are FREE. They are in color. They are complete in
every detail. They have everything there that the lay person can
derive at a fair and logical conclusion. If you want additional
backup, then get ALL mission tapes from STS-1 to STS-80. This
way you can see the 'UFOs' in every single mission to date. I
know this answer is not what you and Kasher and others want to
hear and for that I have no response. Please look at all the
tapes and then see for yourself that EVERY mission is embroiled
with thousands of UFOS, or, gee, there just might be something
to what that crazy NASA is saying about the missions and ejecta
from the spacecraft.

You figure it out. I give up.

And knock off the truculent nonsense. Asked a reasonable
question without the innuendo of you being deceived before you
even get an answer.

After you have seen the tapes, and reviewed them, you will know
what everyone else knows, inside the agnecy and out. If you
still 'know that NASA is lying', great. UFOs all over place in
space around the shuttle. Sounds great to me.

>Ok, I take it this is the STS-48 mission we are talking about
>here. My problem with this is that the alleged RCS motor
>firing,(flash in bottom left corner of screen on clip) fires at
>a particular angle,(say towards 1 o'clock) if that is what is in
>the clip as you say. If this is indeed the case, then why does
>the anomalous object leave the shot at a totally different angle
>than that of the alleged thruster blast? (approximately 2-3
>o'clock) Surely if it was the thrust moving the ice/junk
>whatever, the anomaly would have been blown in a similar path to
>the alleged jet blast from the shuttle.The direction that the
>anomaly leaves the shot from, suggests some kind of resistance
>to the alleged thruster blast direction.Can space junk and Ice
>do this?

What you describe suggest nothing without the full color tape
and a shuttle operator's manual. The ship is in line 90 degrees
to the plume blast. When the RCS fires, in the color tape, RCS
number 17, which is firing, at 2.2 pounds thrust at 1000 feet
per second, egresses from the motor nozzle with a plume fan of
140 degrees in all arcs. Its effect blast effects the area
around it in a 179 degree arc. If anything was laying, floating,
alongside the orbiter, it too would be effected and moved away
from its original location. It would effect all ejecta in the
vicinty in varying degrees.

>Secondly, the anomalous object was also observed to change its
>track again a second time, further out from Earth, which seems
>to kick the RCS motor explanation into touch as far as I can
>determine anyway.

In the color tape of the whole event, even more ejecta appears
into the light bowl and is kicked and shot around and out away
from the orbiters right side. It is a maelstom of activity. The
tape of the mission, including what is in question, is in full
color. It is replete with everything one coul want to knw and it
looks entirely different than the blurry, scratchy, B & W images
as seen on the net.

>Thirdly, when you touched upon the Shuttle missions in your
>post, you did not even acknowledge the fact that there was more
>than one anomalous episode connected to the STS-48 shuttle
>mission. About 6 was it?

No, 2 distinct events and I covered every single facsimilie of
the mission. I state this. You state that I didn't. It is your
call to do your own clicking on the net, which isn't too tough,
and go to Sightings and others sites where my written and oral
dissertation is archived. But as I told Roger Evans, I think it
is virtually hopeless. You will not call JSC and get the tapes,
you will not research your claims further, Kasher wouldn't even
consider a little closer look at his BS claims after I offered
the full color tape for review and lecture at the U of O. Its
fruitless.

>Also what was the anomalous object recorded on film,leaving
>Earth at a high velocity on the STS-80 mission? Too many
>relevent questions left unanswered I think. What I can tell you
>without being an expert in this field is that this particular
>incident was definately NOT Ice or Ejecta', so what was it?

You are correct. It is NOT ice or ejecta, although this material
is there in the tape at times, but because it is a shroud-LCMR
cover from the payload bay pallet array for the foil covering
mounting of the satelitte in the cargo bay before launching that
you are referencing. In the full color tape of the whole mission
sequence you can see it all. There are quite a few of items
that have not, did not clear the cargo bay and the camera has
registered them.

The snide reamark about me having all the answers is flawed and
wrong. I do not have very many answers on most things, period.
In regard to some events regarding STS and NASA I have a limited
number of items to offer. After that, my chest of data is
finished. I'm not the end line on anything. I offer what I know
and what I have been exposed to not by intent, over 20 years.
That is all. When it is done and offered, I am no more than a
reference. I am not a UFO person.


sincerely,

Robert A.M. Stephens
NASA Documentation Program
Stillwater Mills
Contractor-Aerospace
406-745-3818
sti3818@montana.com
http://198.116.116.10/gallery/arts/samples.html






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 22

                          Re: Guilt By Association?

From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 18:06:25 +0000
Fwd Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 00:36:43 -0500
Subject: Re: Guilt By Association?


>From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net>
>Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 02:35:17 -0500
>Fwd Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 12:48:38 -0500
>Subject: Re: Guilt By Association?

>>>Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 20:13:58 +0000
>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>>From: Sean Jones <seanj@tedric.demon.co.uk>
>>>Subject: Guilt By Association?

Previously, Sean had asked:

>>>I wonder is it time to take a vote people? All those who
>>>believe the AA genuine hold your hands up, OK now all you who
>>>think its fake hold your hands up.

John answered:

>I'll have to add a ditto to Bob Shell. I throw up both hands
>because I'm just not certain. And, if a guy like Bob with his
>photographic expertise and who has dedicated far more man-hours
>investigating that piece of film than most of us combined
>doesn't know, who am I to argue! <G>

Hi John,

Before I proceed, let me create a bit of an analogy:

In one room, you've got the world's greatest doctor. In another
room, you've got the world's sickest patient. Running in
between, you've got someone charging a profit to relay
information between the two. But ultimately, the doctor never
gets to see the patient and the patient never gets any better.

Seem familiar?

Bob Shell certainly has a great degree of photographic
expertise; there's no argument about that. But neither he, nor
anyone else (other than Santilli), has actually seen or handled
the original film or talked directly with the cameraman.
Therefore, it doesn't really matter what Bob's background is. He
might as well be a mechanic or a dish washer or a home maker or
a shoe salesman. His experience can't be applied if the patient
is unavailable. And Santilli will always make sure the patient
is unavailable.

So what's left? Only an opinion from looking at video.

So who are you to argue?

Within that limited arena, your opinion is just as valid as
Bob's, regardless of your own background. Despite popular myth
the AA film, itself, has not been investigated at all. The only
thing that's been investigated is Santilli and Santilli's
representation of it.

I do not intend to change your view about whether or not you
think the AA film is real. On the other hand, don't temper your
own beliefs by buying into the myth that AA has withood the
scrutiny of professionals and countless man-hours of
investigative work by people like Bob.

It hasn't.

AA isn't a mystery because Bob Shell's expertise was put to the
test; on the contrary. Bob never got close enough to apply his
experience. AA is a mystery simply because Santilli keeps it
that way. In fact, the last thing that Santilli wants is for Bob
to see the original film.

That's the only truth behind Alien Autopsy.

Take care,

Roger Evans






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 22

                       Re: RAMS - Cleanup The Corners

From: Robert A. M. Stephens <sti3818@montana.com>
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 16:07:05 +0000
Fwd Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 00:39:48 -0500
Subject: Re: RAMS - Cleanup The Corners


>Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 19:34:09 -0600
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Michael Christol <mchristo@mindspring.com>
>Subject: Re: RAMS - Cleanup The Corners

>>Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 02:46:16 +0000
>>From: Robert A. M. Stephens <sti3818@montana.com>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>Subject: Re: RAMS - Cleanup The Corners

>>I am not aware of a problem at this time. I do not lie except to
>>call my myself a fraud only to find that others have taken to
>>task this and have found I am not a fraud.

>First of all, let me say, that I have stayed out of this thing
>since you made your first posts. I know that there are always
>those "vultures" who sit atop dead tree limbs, and "wait" for
>their victim to come along, so they can pounce on them for a
>free meal...

>Well sir, If I can believe what I have been reading lately, you
>have turned the tables on the "vultures," and have actually
>devoured them...<G>

>I am not trying to "suck up," but I would like to know more
>about you, if you are up to sharing it...and if you wish to do
>so, off the mail list, it will be fine.

>I don't know if you have followed any of the threads I have
>posted on or not, but some of them were pretty weak, from my
>knowledge expression viewpoint...<g>In other words, some of the
>time I was ill prepared to make such a post and should have
>thought it out better. But, I contend that my basic premis's
>were correct. However, I will not argue the case with anyone.
>They are entitled to view reality in their own way...

>>I've never had professional help. However, with this culture
>>online I feel this is a very strong possibility.

>Ha, ha, ha...I like that...We are talking to the Politically
>Correct Intellectualistic yuppies in this mail list, for the
>most part. Don't get me wrong...There are some very good people
>in here, and they know who they are...but then there is the
>other group, mentioned above as well...I doubt they know who
>they are...ha, ha, ha..

>>I fail to make the correlation that I am a 'dude'. I do not
>>dress in formal attire, generally.

>You sound like an outdoorsman...also like Stephen Spielburg or
>in the same mold..theoretically speaking.... ;-)



Hello Mike,

Great mail. Thank you. I have no compunction in answering
anything or anyone pertinent to what I know and have been
exposed to over 20 years with NASA and aerospace. I will not
divulge things about my sweetheart's bra size and such as I
think this is not inclusive to the subject of UFOs and such.

I am also wearing down on the STS-48 and STS-80 mission data.
They all need to get the full color tapes of all missions from
JSC. They are free for the asking plus postage. They then can
see for themsleves and make up in their fomented minds whatever
they wish.

All other data I think is good to offer to folks who are
interested, which should get them going in new directions of
quest.

thanks a bunch for this mail.


sincerely,

Robert A.M. Stephens
NASA Documentation Program
Stillwater Mills
Contractor-Aerospace
406-745-3818
sti3818@montana.com
http://198.116.116.10/gallery/arts/samples.html






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 22

                              Italian Hot Line

From: Fabrizio Monaco <F.Monaco@stm.it>
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 00:05:34 +0100
Fwd Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 00:51:51 -0500
Subject: Italian Hot Line


Hello all,

I would like to inform you that we have a hotline for Italian
people who would like to contact CISETI and report UFO
sightings.

Here is the number: +39-06-51965329 which is both voice and fax.

Thank you in advance for the support.

Fabrizio Monaco
CISETI Coordinator






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 22

              Re: Government To Protect Us From Space Creatures

From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 18:46:11 +0000
Fwd Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 00:54:00 -0500
Subject: Re: Government To Protect Us From Space Creatures


>From: Greg St. Pierre <StrmNut@aol.com>
>Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 21:33:12 EST
>Fwd Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 11:52:59 -0500
>Subject: Re: Government To Protect Us From Space Creatures

>>Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 12:58:49 +0100
>>From: Fabrizio Monaco <F.Monaco@stm.it>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>Subject: Re: Government To Protect Us From Space Creatures

Previously, Fabrizio had asked:

>>The question is: how can we fight against unknown viruses? We
>>are talking about extraterrestrial microbes and i think that
>>nobody had never seen or analyzed an extraterrestrial microbe
>>before isn't it?

Greg answered:

<snip>

>Anyway, my point is that they can't even get the most prolific
>virus in the world to fall in line, what makes anyone think they
>can fight a completely alien bug/germ/microbe/disease/nasty
>thing? Sounds like someone's looking for funding, and a nice
>cover story is being floated.

Oh, come on, Greg! Don't be so suspicious!

Don't you know that the government cares deeply about each and
every one of us? <G>

Why, they would _never_ think of taking money from us without
giving back something in return? Would they?

Gotta go. My BS booster is long overdue...

Take care,

Roger Evans






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 22

                   Re: And The Truth Shall Set Its Fee...

From: Sharon Kardol <sharon@hotmix.com.au>
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 09:53:15 +0800
Fwd Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 00:56:45 -0500
Subject: Re: And The Truth Shall Set Its Fee...


>Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 18:21:56 +0000
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Sean Jones <seanj@tedric.demon.co.uk>
>Subject: Re: And The Truth Shall Set Its Fee...

>>From: Sharon Kardol <sharon@hotmix.com.au>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>Subject: Re: And The Truth Shall Set Its Fee...
>>Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 18:09:37 +0800

>>>Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 20:44:35 +0000
>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>>From: Sean Jones <seanj@tedric.demon.co.uk>
>>>Subject: Re: And The Truth Shall Set Its Fee...

<snip>

>Seriously, I would _never_ force my opinion on beliefs in
>_whatever_ down anyone's throat, but I do like to make it clear,
>occasionally, my position.


And the truth shall set you free.

Thanks Sean
Sharon.K






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 22

                          Hoagland Responds To RAMS

From: Robert A. M. Stephens <sti3818@montana.com>
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 19:34:03 +0000
Fwd Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 01:12:15 -0500
Subject: Hoagland Responds To RAMS

>Subject: Re: Earth Changes TV
>Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 11:59:45 -0700
>From: "Richard C. Hoagland" <ENTERPRISE@sprintmail.com>
>To: earthcng@earthlink.net


Re: For Richard C. Hoagland to come on air and discuss debate
questions.


>(From Richard C. Hoagland)

>My first inclination is to "borrow" from that famous WWII
>"Battle of the Bulge" General (McCauliff?) who, when completely
>surrounded and outgunned, replied to the Nazi General's
>supercilious demand for "total surrender" with that one, now
>immortal word--

>"NUTS!"


--------------------------------

(From RAMS)

Under this brilliant statement, one can use the same analogy of
quoting Colonel Shoup during the first '30 minutes' on the
invasion of the island of Tarawa, 1942,  when he was asked by
remote shipboard command what he thought of the situation.  He
said,  "the issue is in doubt".

Indeed.


sincerely,

Robert  A.M. Stephens
NASA Documentation Program
Stillwater Mills
Contractor-Aerospace
406-745-3818
sti3818@montana.com
http://198.116.116.10/gallery/arts/samples.html






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 22

                  Santilli Knew 'Tent Footage' Was a Fraud?

From: James Easton <pulsar@compuserve.com>
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 21:41:31 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 01:16:26 -0500
Subject: Santilli Knew 'Tent Footage' Was a Fraud?


There seems to be further evidence which may substantiate Keith
Bateman and Alan Price-Watts' claims that Ray Santilli knew the
true origins of the 'tent footage'.

Researching the earliest claims and background to this film, I
have discovered an important commentary which appeared in Colin
Andrews' 'Winter 1995' issue of his 'Circles Phenomenon Research
International Newsletter'.

As I see the newsletter mentioned in discussions during June
1995, it had presumably been published by then.

Colin wrote:

CIRCLES PHENOMENON RESEARCH INTERNATIONAL NEWSLETTER

Vol .III No.III Winter 1995

Colin Andrews

[...]

ROSWELL FILM DISCOVERY

[...]

"During the first days of 1995, I received a telephone call in
the U.S. office from my close friend, Reg Presley in the U.K.
Many people know of Reg's interest in the crop circle phenomenon
and UFO's.  He is the lead singer of the popular 60's rock group
'The Troggs' ('Wild Thing', 'Love Is All Around', etc.).  Reg
told me that his manager had been talking with a business man in
London, Raymond Santilli, managing director and owner of Merlin
Productions, a mass media organization with close show biz
connections.  He and Reg had business dealings some years ago
and were tying up loose ends.  Santilli suggested to Reg's
manager that Reg should come to London and see some material Ray
thought he would be interested in.  Ray claimed the material was
the original U.S. army film of the crashed UFO at Roswell.  He
claimed the film had been offered to Stephen Speilburg (sic) for
a movie a short time ago, but was turned down.  Very excited,
Reg set up a meeting at the Merlin Offices in London just after
Christmas.  A 15 minute segment of the film was transferred onto
video from the 16mm original for Reg to view.

So where did this film come from and who is offering it?
According to Santilli, he was offered the film in the presence
of a Fox TV executive while procuring footage of Elvis Presley
for a biography Santilli was then producing.  The man he was
purchasing footage from was an elderly ex-military intelligence
photographer and camera man. Santilli was purchasing unpublished
footage of Elvis as a soldier which has since been included in a
video production on the life of Elvis.

The seller of the film apparently went on to offer Santilli 15
cans of undeveloped film, filmed by him while in the military,
of the Roswell crash scene from the ground and air, and of the
alien autopsies.  He claims he was the military intelligence
photographer recording events as they occurred.  Because of the
highly unusual nature of events, apparently proper channels were
not followed and when it came time for Washington to collect the
film, only two cans were developed and retrieved, the rest were
left with the camera man. For the next 46 years he had hidden
the film, afraid of reprisals from the government should he show
it.  Now, as an elderly man, he was looking for a substantial
sum of money to buy a house for his niece as a wedding present
and decided to sell the film.  The man dragged out the old cans
and permitted a small piece of film to be cut from the leader on
one film to be taken to London for analyses.   According to
Santilli, Kodac (sic) in London reported that the film was of
about 1948 vintage.  That was good enough for Santilli who
purchased all the cans for $100,000 (he has also mentioned
$150,000).


If this is all true, the American government should be nervous
about loosing (sic) material which IF authentic would prove to
the world that they have instigated one of the biggest lies and
deceptions to the American people and the world at large.

My involvement in these events came about through Reg Presley.
By the end of the first week in January, Reg had reviewed the 15
minute segment and included me in his research efforts.  Reg and
I asked for a meeting with Santilli which was arranged for
Friday the 3rd of February.  I flew from New York to meet with
Reg and Santilli in his London office, taking Synthia, my wife,
as witness to the proceedings. Santilli explained how he came to
purchase the film and how easy it had been to fly it out of the
States.  He was, however, having some difficulty developing the
aged film.  Some of the reels were worse than others, the greys
were merging with the blacks and images were nondescript. The
prestigious Royal Society in London agreed to assist with their
high-tech computer enhancement facility.  Apparently results
from computer enhancement were good and Santilli said they only
had a few more films to complete.  He said he had viewed all
that had been developed and was confident of its authenticity.
He stated that it showed the crash scene and the debris being
inspected and removed.  It also showed two autopsies with one of
the autopsy films showing very clearly President Truman watching
the procedures. Allegedly, Truman is standing with others behind
a glass screen and his face can be seen so clearly that you can
lip-read his words.  All the film is in black and white and
without a sound track. According to the photographer, the second
autopsy was undertaken in a military hospital in Dallas.  I
asked Santilli what was the most impressive thing he had seen on
the film.  What had convinced him that it was authentic - "I had
no doubts" he said, "when I saw President Truman". The first
so-called autopsy was contained on it's (sic) 15 minute film and
it was this that Reg and I viewed.  It showed what appeared to
be two medical personnel dressed in white coats working on the
left-hand side of a body which was laying horizontally on a
table of some kind. The "medical" personnel were not wearing
hats, gloves or masks.  The alleged E.T. was draped in a white
blanket with it's head, feet and right hand showing.  Because of
the angle of the stationary camera, positioned to the right-hand
side of the table and beyond the feet, it is difficult to
estimate the size of the body.  It could be as small as 4'1" or
as large as 6'.  My personal guess is 5'10".  The feet appear
slightly larger than human, as does the pear-shaped head which
seems hairless. They eyes appear very large and black.  It is
just about possible to make out a small nose and perhaps a tiny
mouth also.  It is difficult to be sure how many fingers are on
the right hand but I believe it has four finger and a thumb -
the thumb can be clearly seen.  I asked Santilli if he would
permit me to take a copy of the film back to America, where I
could obtain a medical opinion on the procedures being
undertaken. Santilli agreed under the condition that no one else
would be permitted to view it.

Bound by this agreement, I returned to the U.S.  and showed it
to Dr. Gale Ramsby, MD, professor of Radiology at the University
of Connecticut Health Center.  It is the opinion of Dr. Ramsby
that the film may show a medical procedure rather than an
autopsy. Santilli verified that the photographer does indeed
claim that this was an emergency procedure carried out in a barn
at the crash site after discovering that one of the two aliens
was in fact still alive. In the film, two medical personnel
appear to be removing a dressing from a wound on the left hand
side of the torso or on the left arm. The exact spot is masked
by the body, which is between the camera and the wound. >From
time to time large wads of something assumed to be dressing or
tissue is inspected closely by both men and placed away from the
table.

Through-out the film there is a square marker board in the
bottom right hand side of the screen, on which is marked the
following:

RESTRICTED ACCESS

AO1 CLASSIFICATION

SUBJECT 1 OF 2

JULY 30th 1947


There are three or four white flashes periodically during the
film which consultants suggest may be caused by splicing.
During these flashes, and with the film playing back frame by
frame, it can be seen that the marker board remains on the
screen, while all else is whited out. This indicates that the
marker board was not present during the filming of the procedure
but was superimposed afterwards, probably during development.
[End]


The significant confirmation from Colin is of course:

"Santilli verified that the photographer does indeed claim that
this was an emergency procedure carried out in a barn at the
crash site after discovering that one of the two aliens was in
fact still alive".

Wow...

So how could Ray Santilli have known the film setting was a
barn? The default answer must be that he was fully aware of the
film's true origins.

Whether that is true, you must judge.


An alternative explanation would have to be that the 'cameraman'
did confirm he had shot the film in a barn and it documented an
emergency medical procedure on one of the 'aliens'.

Given what we no know about the true background, that doesn't
seem plausible.

The apparent certainty of the alleged 'cameraman' is in contrast
to later claims that the 'he' was unsure about the footage and
didn't recognise the filming style, etc.


Perhaps the overall conclusion is the one most evident; the
'barn footage'(which apparently it should always have been
designated!) was always known to be fake and originally promoted
as the 'medical procedure' on an 'alien', claiming the
'cameraman' confirmed details of its authenticity.

Subsequently, the 'tent footage' was dropped as it had become
surplus to requirements, became something of a problem and most
importantly, detracted from the far superior 'alien autopsy'
footage.

Part of the 'tent footage' which Bob Kiviat acquired and which
had faces digitally masked, might have been a result of
maintaining its presence as 'Roswell' evidence, whilst ensuring
none of the actors were identified.

Thus the 'cameraman' subsequently became 'uncertain' about this
sequence of film...and so on.


As previously noted, Keith Bateman also claims that when they
first showed the film to Ray, he said it should have a
'restricted notice' on it. They then superimposed the infamous
'security codes' and produced another version of the film.

This is the origin of the 'security coded' mentioned by Colin
Andrews and would explain why some reports of the 'tent footage'
noted there was no such 'coding' - that editing presumably being
missing from the earlier copy. There's further evidence to
support the point, however, that shouldn't be necessary.


Bateman claims that they filmed the 'alien autopsy/medical
procedure' in a barn and had the local farmer play the part of
President Truman, as this was a story they had found in their
own research into the Roswell case.

I can't recall where this was claimed in the Roswell literature
- does anyone know what the probable source is?


I have no doubt that the published 'debris' footage, depicting
those distinctive 'Roswell I-beams' with 'hieroglyphics',
similarly owes its origins to Roswell lore.

What inspired the 'alien' in the 'autopsy footage', however, is
a mystery, other than the obvious deduction that to be credible
and practicable from a SFX viewpoit, any 'autopsied alien' had
to be hairless and sexless, certainly devoid of any sexual
'appendages'.


Some further comments re Colin's newsletter:

"He claimed the film had been offered to Stephen Speilburg (sic)
for a movie a short time ago, but was turned down".

There were first of all rumours that Spielberg was planning a
50th anniversary 'Roswell' film and later that he had acquired
some 'Roswell footage' from an elderly ex-military cameraman.
The story (apparently merely unfounded rumour and of no
consequence) is briefly documented in 'The Manikin Who Fell to
Earth' article on my web site, at:

http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/pulsar/aa_qa.htm


"According to Santilli, he was offered the film in the presence
of a Fox TV executive...".

No known substance to this at all and I suspect that Colin is in
fact referring to Gary Shoefield who was in the US with Ray
Santilli during the 'Elvis memorabilia' trip. Gary was at that
time employed by a division of PolyGram.


"The prestigious Royal Society in London agreed to assist with
their high-tech computer enhancement facility".

It can only be noted that Colin reports this and that Paul
Fuller contacted the 'Royal Society', who confirmed they do not
have any such facilities and had no knowledge of these claims.


"What had convinced him that it was authentic - 'I had no
doubts' he said, 'when I saw President Truman'".

At the end of 1995, Ray explained, "I mentioned this to a
researcher in the early days, before we had completed the
processing of the reels. It was a mistake on my part. I repeated
what the cameraman had told me and expected no problem with the
development of the film. Unfortunately the film on this reel was
too badly damaged to retrieve an image".


"The first so-called autopsy was contained on it's (sic) 15
minute film and it was this that Reg and I viewed".

No, it was the 'barn footage', the 'first autopsy' is a film
which few people were shown and has never been released.


To reiterate, there's now an html'd version of the 'Mail on
Sunday' article with a 'tent footage' frame showing those
'security codes', on my web site at URL:

http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/pulsar/mail_os.htm


Images from the 'tent footage' which doesn't have the bogus,
superimposed 'notice', can be seen on Neil Morris's site, at
URL:

http://adm2.ph.man.ac.uk/tentft.htm


I anticipate there will be further developments, hopefully
encompassing all of the 'alien autopsy' footage.



James.
E-mail: pulsar@compuserve.com





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 22

                        Re: What's the point? A rant

From: John W. Ratcliff" <jratcliff@worldnet.att.net>
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 23:24:18 -0600
Fwd Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 01:32:03 -0500
Subject: Re: What's the point? A rant


>From: Sam Pepys [mailto:pepys1@hotmail.com]
>Sent: Thursday, January 21, 1999 4:52 PM
>To: jratcliff@att.net
>Subject: Re: Flaming Pie Plates

Sam wrote the following comments to which I replied...:

>>There IS no Roswell.

Something crashed.

>There are no saucers in area 51.

Wouldn't know, never been there.

>The gov't probably has studied the phenomenon. I look at it
>this way - if there was contact, if we did have artifacts, we'd
>know about it.

We do.

>People can't keep secrets, it's not in our nature.

Plenty of people have spoken. Lot's of people speak on lots of
subjects, and they are ignored. Whether it's biological weapons
testing, radiation testing on babies, rapes in the military,
etc. etc. Some people spoke for decades, and were ignored, as
crackpots, lunatics, or folks without proof. None of these
subjects became 'accepted' until _The Perpetrators_ finally
admitted it decades later. Every time I hear the statement
'people can't keep secrets', I wonder, am I the only person who
watches 60 minutes? About once every couple of years they
actually manage to uncover something which we find out was in
fact a successful conspiracy of silence maintained for decades.

You state that people can't keep secrets, which sounds nice.
People do blab, they are called security risks. We call those
folks members of congress, hippies, free thinkers. Those with
top level security clearance do _not_. Not if they want to
protect their career, which is based upon that security
clearance. For what rational reason would they speak? To what
benefit? Secrets are power, people retain their power. For
Christ's sake, I write computer video games for a living, hardly
Roswell, and I don't go blabbing the secrets about how my games
work. In _business_ I sign non-disclosure agreements which have
serious penalties if I reveal proprietary information. I _honor_
those agreements.

People who are in the military or defense industry are charged
with keeping secrets. They can, and do, keep them for decades.
History has proven this to be _fact_ over and over and over
again.

My current boss used to be in the military industrial complex.
He cannot, and will not, reveal any information of any kind
whatsoever about his work. He has discussed with me about the
nature of military classification. According to him when a
military project is budgeted, a major portion of the budget is
dedicated to security alone. According to him, even after
leaving his position to return to the private sector, he has
spot security checks, follow ups, and random encounters by phone
or in person from people who test him on issues surrounding his
previous work. He has never spoken to me about any detail
whatsoever of any kind regarding his specific work in this area.
He is extremely nervous about the subject ever getting raised,
and I try to respect this, my curiosity be damned.

When tens of billions of dollars are spent by intelligence
agencies to maintain secrets you can rest assured that is
exactly what happens. Have you ever seen what happens when
someone goes through the kind of security checks required to get
high level security clearance? It is a robust process to say
the least, with issues of honor, duty, patriotism, and the
ability to keep secrets of the utmost importance. When security
oaths are given, when violation of that oath means, by
definition, an act of treason with all the penalties that
implies, let me assure you these are honored.

Ask your average Air Force grunt about UFOs. They don't keep
their mouths shut. Do they tell you it's all bunk? Hardly, my
own random sampling has produced story, after story, after
story. Declassified military documents show not only a very
high level of interest in the phenomenon, but a long record of
encounters. Forget about asking the local hillbilly about UFOs,
start asking military about them. The reactions I receive are
as follows. (1) Don't know anything about them. (2) Yeah,
here's this list of encounter experiences we had off the deck or
our carrier.... (3) When I was sent to military intelligence
training here is how we were briefed.. and (4) The higher you go
up the food chain the less is said and the more serious the
demeanor.

Why would this subject be kept such a secret? Why would those
secrets be honored? Ever consider the fact that it's _their
job_ and are acting in the best interest of the American public
from an invasion of our air space by a subversive and dangerous
intrusion?

In the end people keep secrets to protect their personal
interest, and there is no benefit of any kind for someone to
speak publicly on these matters. Some rare few do, nonetheless.
We label them nuts, crackpots, lunatics. Which, perhaps, many of
them are.

You mentioned in a previous message, Betty Cash Lundrum. Think
the gummint treated her honestly, truthfully, and in a
forthcoming fashion?

And then there is the whole issue of how you keep subjects like
UFOs secret. The _Art_ of dissinformation has a long and rich
history, well worth researching in it's own right.

Sorry for the long rant, but to suggest secrets of great
magnitude cannot be kept is not only an expression of naivet=E9
but also blind ignorance towards the facts of history.

John





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 22

                         CAUS 1/22/98 Press Release

From: Stephen G. Bassett <ParadigmRG@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 00:35:54 EST
Fwd Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 01:37:55 -0500
Subject: CAUS 1/22/98 Press Release


Paradigm Research Group

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
                                        January 22, 1999

CITIZENS AGAINST UFO SECRECY (CAUS) TODAY FILES A NEW FREEDOM OF
INFORMATION ACT LAWSUIT IN FEDERAL COURT -- THIS TIME AGAINST
THE DEPARTMENT OF DEFENSE FOR INFORMATION ABOUT ALIEN CRAFT IN
OUR SKIES

Continuing its legal battle under the Freedom of Information Act
against government secrecy, attorney Peter A. Gersten, Executive
Director of Citizens Against UFO Secrecy, Inc (CAUS), a
nonprofit Arizona activist organization dedicated to ending all
secrecy surrounding this planet's contact with an
extraterrestrial intelligence, announced today the filing of a
new FOIA lawsuit.

A 1998 CAUS lawsuit, still pending in the Federal Court in
Phoenix, is against the Department of Army for documents
involving the allegations of Col. Philip Corso in his book The
Day After Roswell. This new lawsuit is against the Department of
Defense for information about the alien craft seen in our skies.

Gersten, who will be accompanied by a dozen eyewitnesses on the
steps of the US District Court in Phoenix, has stated "its time
someone in authority is held accountable and responsible for
identifying these strange craft that are continually sighted in
our skies and sometimes over populated areas.  Its time we knew
exactly what these objects are and more importantly, their
purpose."

He describes these craft as "either delta, boomerang, triangular
or v-shaped; ranging in size from a house to a football field;
moving very slowly or apparently floating; little or no sound;
and with many lights including, on occasion, a red trailing
light."  Some of these objects, according to the CAUS director,
were seen in the Hudson Valley in 1984 through 1987; in Phoenix,
Arizona on March 13, 1997; in Salisbury, North Carolina from
April-June 1998 and Sedona, Arizona on July 15, 1998 as well as
countless other places throughout the planet since the early
80s.

One eyewitness states that "I swear this craft just appeared
over my head.  I can say for certain I saw lights at each one of
the three corners of the craft and at least one on each of the
sides.  I did see what appeared to be either a large light or a
window directly in the center of the triangle.  The eerie part
was the silence for a craft hovering so close.  It disappeared
just as suddenly as it appeared and was gone again without any
visible movement.  It was pretty creepy."

"At a time when everyone is anxious about terrorist attacks, its
alarming that no government or military agency appears concerned
about these enigmatic and apparently technologically advanced
craft that have unrestricted access to our skies," Gersten
stated as he made preparations to file the CAUS papers.

Contact Information for CAUS:

Peter A. Gersten
130 Castle Rock Road #85, Sedona, Arizona 86341-0351
Phone: 520-284-5248
E-mail: Ufolawyer@caus.orgUS
Website http://www.caus.org

Contact Information for Paradigm Research Group:

Stephen Bassett
Phone: 301-564-1820
Email:  ParadigmRG@aol.com
Website:  www.paradigmclock.com





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 22

             A Little Virtue For A Maddening Situation (R.A.M.S)

From: Scott Krause <SKrause272@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 00:48:53 EST
Fwd Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 01:43:37 -0500
Subject: A Little Virtue For A Maddening Situation (R.A.M.S)

(ebk- I know this is alittle of topic, but not far <g>)


After posting for the second time to this list, I have finally
got some fan mail. In this mail I was called "stupid" and a
"fool". (don't worry Mr. Stephens, I won't tell them it was you
<g>) I guess it's true when they say it's good to feel loved
<g>. So I thought a little virtue from the "Teachings of
Buddha" was in order:

A fool who thinks that he is a fool is for that very reason a
wise man. The fool who thinks that he is wise is called a fool
indeed.

Though he should conquer a thousand men in the battlefield a
thousand times, yet he, indeed, who would conquer himself is the
noblest victor.

In the face of all that is so crazy in this field and all the
hatred that seems to sprout up becuse of it, you don't have to
look far to see why so much never gets done. If we as a people
hope to ever get to the bottom of the fog, we have got to stop
holding each other back.

Thanks and Good Luck,

Scott Krause
Seattle





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 22

                 Re: Stunning Photo Of Craft Over Groom Lake

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 01:48:33 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 01:48:33 -0500
Subject: Re: Stunning Photo Of Craft Over Groom Lake

From: stig.agermose@get2net.dk
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 07:02:10 +0100 (MET)
Subject: Stunning Photo Of Craft Over Groom Lake
To: updates@globalserve.net


Just up on Groom Watch (Norio Hayakawa's site). URL:

http://eagle-net.org/groomwatch/1990UAV.htm

Stig

***

1990 photo of prototype UAV (by Lockheed?) over Groom Lake.

Photo taken by my former colleague of Civilian Intelligence
Network, Gary Schultz, on Wednesday, February 28, 1990 just
south of Hwy 375 on 'Mail Box' Road, looking due south towards
Jumbled Hills and Groom Mountains. Object appeared to be
orangish light in the distance. Upon development and
enlargement, dome and general shape became apparent.

NIKON Action Camera. 1600 ASA.








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 22

                   Stunning Photo Of Craft Over Groom Lake

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 01:57:47 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 01:57:47 -0500
Subject: Stunning Photo Of Craft Over Groom Lake

From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@get2net.dk>
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 07:02:10 +0100 (MET)
Subject: Stunning Photo Of Craft Over Groom Lake
To: updates@globalserve.net


Just up on Groom Watch (Norio Hayakawa's site). URL:

http://eagle-net.org/groomwatch/1990UAV.htm

Stig

***

1990 photo of prototype UAV (by Lockheed?) over Groom Lake.

Photo taken by my former colleague of Civilian Intelligence
Network, Gary Schultz, on Wednesday, February 28, 1990 just
south of Hwy 375 on 'Mail Box' Road, looking due south towards
Jumbled Hills and Groom Mountains. Object appeared to be
orangish light in the distance. Upon development and
enlargement, dome and general shape became apparent.

NIKON Action Camera. 1600 ASA.







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 22

                       Re: What's The Point? - A Rant

From: Leanne Martin <leanne_martin@hotmail.com>
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 00:04:54 PST
Fwd Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 15:54:44 -0500
Subject: Re: What's The Point? - A Rant


>From: John W. Ratcliff <jratcliff@worldnet.att.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: What's The Point? - A Rant
>Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 00:33:05 -0600

>I am ashamed to admit that I kind of, sort of, maybe, in a way,
>sometimes believe there might really be such a thing as UFOs.
>Of course, then all of the sudden, awash in existentialism, I
>begin to question my definitions of what reality is.  Is 'it'
>something objective, 'out there', fixed and stable ruled by
>immutable laws of physics, only marred by my pathetic interface
>system, my random and half incoherent excuse for self-aware
>consciousness, and generally half psychotic bad attitude?

<snip>

>While I love UFOs, and my run on sentences which are probably
>designed to cause my high school English teacher the same kind
>of maddening feeling I get when I browse the Enterprise Mission
>web site, I must conclude that nothing anybody can publish,
>produce, or promote, can ever rise above the noise and madness
>of the likes of Art Bell, Richard Hoagland, god knows how many
>other internet yahoos, radio talk show hosts, mega
>bagzillionaire ex-CEO's, and their self-addled friends.

>I give up.  Love and kisses.

>John W. Ratcliff
>Self Mutilating UFO Groupie

Unlike John, I am not ashamed to admit that there might be UFOs,
ghosts, goblins, Chuppa-chups, fairies at the bottom of the
garden, bigfoots (bigfeet?) and alien abductions, etc. (**Note
the words _might_, please.) John, what a good rant, be careful
though as it was fully coherent. Isn't that breaking the
tradition?  <g>

Like John I, too, love the topic of UFOs and scour the List,
news agents, bookshelves and the web testing my credulity daily.
Often I wonder, too, whether my 'interface' is awry because I
want so much to believe in things for which the evidence is
lacking. I really do want to believe.

When I express my opinions as to why I am not a 'confirmed
believer' in a very exacting, coherent and logical way, and
probing for a proof positive I am assailed as if I am the
Anti-Christ herself! The assailants, for the most part, seem not
to be able to step back and look at themselves and their
'evidence' as would any unbiased and dispassionate researcher of
any subject. (**Note I said _for the most part_.) I attacked _no
individual_, but I have no compunction whatsoever about
attacking bad logic. I used religious references to point out
their zeal and that reminds me: Which religion is the one true
faith - each one _knows_ that it is? Which alien abduction/s
scenario/s is/are the truth? There are far too, too many to
choose from in religions and alien abductions and each one is
adamant that their's is the way and the truth and the light. If
they are all true then there are tens of thousands of gods and
perhaps a few hundred totally different alien species with
unique reasons to abduct you.

(I dare say, the most 'believable' abduction stories are the
ones where it happens without rhyme, reason, or explanation. It
reminds me so much of human nature - where someone with the
absolute power to do something will do it - coldly, bluntly,
brutally - simply because they can and see no reason to do
otherwise.)

As stated above there _might_ be all manner of curious things on
our world, and around it, of the likes mentioned in this List.
There actually might be! As there might be mentally unwell
people who claim to be abductees there might equally be those
who truly are abductees. (I feel terribly sorry for either
experience as both appear equally horrible to go through.) I am
fully entitled to not believe in them until the proof is in the
pudding, just as others do already believe in them.

On my recent holidays in Tasmania I happened upon two seperate
crop circles. I did not ascribe any supernatural or 'out of this
world' nature to them. I took them for what they are - anomolies
that are awaiting an explanation. To my mind that is what UFOs,
abduction experiences, etc., are - various anomolies (real or
imagined) that are awaiting explanations.

Back to John's rant (sorry, mate, I didn't want to hijack your
rant) - what's the point? When I grow up I'll buy a rant of my
own . . . maybe a chicken rant, or a sheep rant, or a cattle
rant, or a dude rant - I know, a Hoagland rant with lots of
little Hoagies running around . . .

Regards (stirring the possum as ever),
Leanne  ];-)






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 22

                     BUFORA Watch - The Wall of Silence

From: Mike Wootten <ej77@dial.pipex.com>
Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 11:29:21 GMT
Fwd Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 16:00:53 -0500
Subject: BUFORA Watch - The Wall of Silence


--------------------------------------------
BUFORA WATCH - The Wall of Silence
--------------------------------------------

As BUFORA has now become a shadow of its former self with no
direction or drive, some active members have been asking the
BUFORA Council some simple questions relating to what is
perceived to be a wholesale mismanagement of an Association that
they have a legal share in.

For some time now these qiestions have been asked and asked
again will little or no reply; highlighting the contempt the
BUFORA Council have for its membership.

Active member, John Heptonstall is one who has been asking some
serious questions. What follows is his reply to a long awaited
set of answers form Council. Their answers are masterpiece of
spin doctoring that a politician would be proud of.

Thank to John Heptonstall for giving us full permission to
publish what follows.


----------------------------------------------------------------------

 Hello Arnold

Thanks for your letter dated 14th January 1999 re. above. I note
the initial statement -

"Quoting from the minutes 'Council are adamant that all
requirements of the Company's Act, and BUFORA Articles have been
met' also John Spencer informed the Council that 'John H. had
not accepted his offer to discuss the accounts in detail'".

I am glad that Council is adamant that all requirements of the
Company's Act and BUFORA Articles have been met - I am not sure
that is completely true but it is important that there was no
MENS REA.

As for John S., I made it clear that I expected, quite
naturally, answers to the particular questions which I posed in
a BUFORA members forum e-mail. I had no intention of travelling
to London to discuss the accounts nor desire to 'discuss the
accounts in detail' in private, my questions did not require
secret or restricted answers and there were a number of other
members who required the same information. I therefore declined
John's offer on those specific grounds and used e-mail to seek
answers. I have STILL not received clarification of those
important points. I think that could be construed an offence
under the Companies Act 1985, s238/239.

I will, for the benefit of those who awaited the outcome of my
questionnaire, take your answers (A) by section and append my
original question (Q) for those who do not have them to hand:-


Q. 1. What does 'administration costs' cover in accounts for
years ending August 1996 and 1997?

   2. Does Council think that 'administration costs', which were
about 140% of income in year ending 1997, were excessive? If so
what has Council done to reduce this tendency seen in years 1996
and 1997 for 1998 or were 'admin. costs' again excessive for
year ending 1998?

   4. Cost of 'events' in 1996 totalled =A323.539.00, how much of
this was spent on National Events and how much on the 'London
meetings'?

   5. Cost of 'events' in 1997 was =A39,044.00, how much for
National

and how much for 'London' meetings?

   6. The actions of Council during 1997 led to BUFORA making a
loss of =A378.00 compared to a healthy profit of =A316,374.00 the
year before. Does this suggest that Council did not manage
members' fees adequately, and if so what decisions led to the
poor figures of 1997?

A. "1,2,4,5,6/ Would have been covered if you had accepted John
Spencer's offer of a meeting."


Now I don't want to sound awkward, but that appears to be a
major cop- out; it neither answers my questions nor provides
reasonable information. This implies that my questions were
either not asked of COUNCIL to whom they were addressed or that
Council have failed, and are still failing, in their duty to
answer them.

Under the Company's Act those questions are quite reasonable and
are required to be answered.

Q. 3. Does Council support the view that the majority of
members' fees should be spent on Research and Investigation of
the UFO phenomenon within BUFORA?

A. " 3/ The Association provides a framework wherein individual
researchers and investigators may pursue their interests and
publish their findings ".

Does this answer mean that Council DOES NOT support the view
that the majority of members' fees should be spent on R&I? -
again I do not appear to have been answered directly, more
avoidance?

Q. 7. Can I be supplied with a copy of the year ending August
1998 accounts now please?

A. "7/ Not before the accounts are released to the membership."

Now, at the time of writing that would have been a perfectly
reasonable answer but it is now January 19th 1999 AND I STILL
HAVE NOT BEEN GIVEN A COPY OF THE ACCOUNTS contrary to the
Company's Act (CA 1985 s239).

Q. 8. The accounting procedures for 1997 and beyond were
affected by the transfer of responsibility for accounts to newly
appointed persons and companies in 1998, Bob Digby was appointed
BUFORA Treasurer, BUFORA Accountants were also changed. Were
these changes subjected to the majority vote at the AGM in 1998?

A. "8/ The appointment of the treasurer and auditor was in
accordance with our Articles of Association."

What does this say for the Articles?

Q. 11. Does Council intend to resolve to fulfil its legal
requirements in the future with respect to the holding of an AGM
by serving notice, in writing, to every member entitled to
attend the AGM giving details of date, time, place, business
covered, and that of proxy rights no later than the minimum time
allowed by law, being 21 days before the AGM convenes subject to
CA 1985 s 369?If so it should also ensure that every member
receives a copy of the accounts to be discussed at that AGM at
least 21 days in advance of the AGM along with the statutory
notice.

A. "11/ This requirement has been, and always will be observed".

Arnold supplied me with photocopies of the UFO Times 44 (
Dec/Jan/Feb 1997 ) , and Bulletin Issue 1 January 1998, to
support that statement. I note that the UFO Times item is
announced under the large heading 'BUFORA NATIONAL LECTURES' and
date is 5th April.

In Bulletin January 1998 there IS a detailed 'AGM Notice'
account under the Editorial about the forthcoming AGM to be held
on 4th April 1998.

The Council DID serve notice on the members through the
Bulletin. It also requested 'members who wished to nominate
persons for election to the Council of Management to give the
secretary such nominations.... not less than 4 or more than 28
clear days before AGM'.

However, the Council made two questionable decisions between
this notice and the AGM which sparked my original question:-

1. By TELEPHONE POLL (I am reliably informed) Council members
ELECTED/APPOINTED themselves into key positions - Chairman etc.
- a few weeks before the AGM and then used the AGM to secure
these positions. The membership was not made aware of these
position changes prior to the AGM. Notice of these key changes
was NOT served on the members to give an opportunity for members
to KNOW which posts would be vacated/contested to set up
opposition, if desired, to those appointments leaving the usual
handful of attendees at the AGM merely to ratify the 'foregone
conclusion'. Is that just?

2. The members WERE NOT provided copies of the accounts for
perusal prior to the AGM as per CA 1985 s238.

I note that members received an 'Annual report & Statement of
Accounts 1994-1995' prior to the AGM IN 1996 with notice of AGM,
Agenda for AGM, Minutes of 20th AGM, Chairman's report, Report
of Council of management for 12 months ending 31st August 1995,
Accounts for year ending 31st August 1995, Treasurer's report, D
of Investigations report, D of Research Report, D of
Publications Report, Publicity report and other news such that
members were FULLY appraised of the situation PRIOR to the AGM
at which said items would be open to discussion.

   WHAT WENT WRONG IN LATER YEARS? WHO chose to do away with
this very important & standard business practice?


Q. 12. Directors have a statutory 'duty of skill and care'. In
view of the apparent breaches of the law undertaken by some of
BUFORAs current Directors in 1998, what is Council going to do
about those individuals who appear to have broken the law?

A. "12/ I consider that the Directors of BUFORA exercised their
'duty of skill and care' at all times ".

I'm sorry Arnold, and with all due respect, what do other
Council members think? I asked this question of COUNCIL, how did
they vote - or was it not subjected to the usual democratic
vote?

I think, and bearing in mind the apparent breaches of the CA
still outstanding, for example I seem to be denied a copy of the
accounts I requested months ago, contrary to CA1985 s239, that
Council should have to vote on this important issue of
Directors' 'skill and care'.

Q. 13. Most private companies arrange a limitation on
Directorship held by individuals in order to ensure that all
members have the opportunity and right to vote for change in
that regard. What does Council do to ensure this 'duty of care'
is carried out by all Directors in BUFORA?

A. "13/ Elected directors of BUFORA retire by rotation after
three years service, but may offer themselves for re-election.
Appointed directors retire at the next AGM, but may also offer
themselves for re-election."

This is Companies Act guidelines certainly. But:-

We seem to have a revolving door for current Directors, and
especially a few key positions seem to be occupied by the few.

Why were the impending vacancies not subjected to the same
process requested of members in the Notice served in the
Bulletin January 1998? i.e. Certain Council members saw fit to
re-ELECT/ELECT themselves and others BY TELEPHONE POLL prior to
the AGM whilst EVERY OTHER MEMBER was told to serve nominations
on the Secretary between 4 and 28 days prior to the AGM.


I am grateful to Arnold for providing me with a, perhaps more
limited than I expected, voice at the recent Council meeting.

I am not satisfied with the replies as I feel Council has yet to
deal with significant questions posed as to its ability to serve
its members openly and within the spirit of the law.

I believe RE-ELECTIONS/APPOINTMENTS were made without proper
recourse to the system as intended ( witness notice in Bulletin
January 1998 ) to be used FOR ALL MEMBERS.

I also believe that members expect that their fees, and any
funds acquired by BUFORA, should be largely spent on Research
and Investigations and not 'administration' - a term which, in
the case of BUFORAs accounts for 1996 and 1997, has still not
been properly defined to us even now and yet which ATE UP a
massive proportion of funds in 1996 and 1997.  =A311,188.00 of
=A346,178.00 turnover was eaten by 'admin.' in 1996 with 'events'
taking =A325,539.00. =A324,236.00 was eaten by admin. against
turnover of =A317,766.00 in 1997 and 'events' =A39,044.00.

Research and Investigations were funded =A34,252 from a turnover
of =A346,178 in 1996 and =A3945 of =A317,766 in 1997. Is that in
accordance with members wishes?

I also feel that 'London meetings' is not a suitable excuse for
any large expenditure of said fees as they can only be utilised
frequently by those situated near London. As I have been denied
figures for the proportion of fees which served the London
audiences, I cannot make more of that at the moment.

I am not really surprised by the answers given as I am well
aware of the significant reservations other members have about
the workings of Council, particularly certain members. The
situation has led to mistrust of Council's motives in several
respects. Trust can only be recovered by Council through a full
and forthright response to questions posed by members, and by
strict adherence not only to the law, but to the spirit of the
law and articles of this Association.


Regards to all

John Heptonstall






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 22

                         Military Retirees & Secrecy

From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 07:32:01 +0000
Fwd Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 16:04:23 -0500
Subject: Military Retirees & Secrecy


>From: Bob Shell <bob@bobshell.com>
>Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 15:07:34 +0000
>Fwd Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 23:35:15 -0500
>Subject: Re: Military Retirees & Secrecy

>>From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
>>Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 12:45:50 +0000
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>Subject: Military Retirees & Secrecy

Previously, I had written:

>>You simply inquired about your father's _own_ experiences, which
>>is fine. But just because something like this did not happen to
>>your father does not mean it did not happen to mine, Bob, or
>>that it can't happen to anyone else.

Bob replies:

>Fair enough. He said nothing like this ever happened to him,
>anyone he knew, or anyone he ever heard of, and he doubted that
>it ever happened to anyone. He was hassled by govt types over
>the Powers story, but he believed that the public had a right to
>know, so he ran it anyway. No one attempted to confiscate his
>photos or tapes (audio in those days) and film.

>Did your father run the stories anyway?

Hi Bob,

No. Like his co-workers, my father was an engineer, non a
reporter. He started in radio then, like most, moved on to TV.
It wasn't his place to make decisions about what stories to run,
even under normal conditions, and certainly not in the face of
some goon from the government.

Interesting that your father was hassled by the government, so
apparently something DID happen to him even if nothing was
confiscated. I'm glad he didn't buckle under. On the other hand,
as I was telling Dave Vetterick in another post, much of the
final outcome depends on the individual's own willingness to
take a perceived risk regarding his life or livlihood.

I spoke with my own father after your last post and he stands by
his claims. Apparently, my father's remote crew was not the only
one that suffered this problem. His conversations with other
stations in the area showed that their remote crews were dealing
with the same thing. During the hey-days of NASA, when the
networks used pool coverage and everything was piped through
Houston, he said it was the worst ever for some reason, even if
the story had nothing to do with the space program! Go figure.
Maybe it has someting to do with Houston...

Later,

Roger Evans






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 22

                Re: Santilli Knew 'Tent Footage' Was a Fraud?

From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 08:20:40 +0000
Fwd Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 16:10:15 -0500
Subject: Re: Santilli Knew 'Tent Footage' Was a Fraud?


>From: James Easton <pulsar@compuserve.com>
>Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 21:41:31 -0500
>Fwd Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 01:16:26 -0500
>Subject: Santilli Knew 'Tent Footage' Was a Fraud?

Previously, James had offered:

>The seller of the film apparently went on to offer Santilli 15
>cans of undeveloped film, filmed by him while in the military,
>of the Roswell crash scene from the ground and air, and of the
>alien autopsies.

<snip>

>The man dragged out the old cans
>and permitted a small piece of film to be cut from the leader on
>one film to be taken to London for analyses.   According to
>Santilli, Kodac (sic) in London reported that the film was of
>about 1948 vintage.

<snip>

>At the end of 1995, Ray explained, "I mentioned this to a
>researcher in the early days, before we had completed the
>processing of the reels. It was a mistake on my part. I repeated
>what the cameraman had told me and expected no problem with the
>development of the film. Unfortunately the film on this reel was
>too badly damaged to retrieve an image".

Hi James,

As Bob Shell pointed out in an earlier post, 16mm B&W motion
picture film from 1947 would have to be processed totally
different since it would require different chemicals at a lower
temperature. Bob correctly pointed out that the emulsion of the
old film would come right off using contemporary processing.

If the info about Santilli processing the film is true, then it
should be fairly easy to find the lab that did the work.

Why? For starters, at least here in the states, B&W motion
picture processing is harder to find since most labs limit
themselves to color neg. Therefore, the number of labs equipped
to handle B&W are going to be fewer in number. On top of that,
the rolls would certainly require special handling for the
technical reason mentioned earlier. Such an event would require
the changing of the chemicals, experimentation of development
times and temperatures; basically taking over the entire
processing chain just for this one job. And, as Santilli
supposedly mentioned, there were problems with the film, I
suppose, because of age.

There would not be too many labs that could do this kind of
work, to begin with, and certainly the lab involved would have a
record of such an unusual project!

I hope this helps.

Take care,

Roger Evans






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 22

                               Keeping Secrets

From: GT McCoy <gtmccoy@harborside.com>
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 06:05:07 -0800
Fwd Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 16:32:23 -0500
Subject: Keeping Secrets


This too may, be a little off subject, but it illustrates the
nature of humanity. Years ago, I had a (now deceased) friend who
had a radio-controlled model manufacturing Co. A more paranoid
individual I have never known. At first, I thought he was in
need of professional help - wrong. He was absoluetley justified
in his Paranoia. A brilliant engineer, his products were true
works of art and at the same time, flew well. Sometimes the two
don't go hand-in-hand.

I knew him for two years, dated his niece, and after he finally
trusted me, I got to see "the lab" located in the wilds of W.
Washington, he had everything but a Wackenhut "cammo dude"
security wise, (although a large Doberman named "Herman" was
sufficent.)

Why all the secrecy? well, the model plane business is one of
the most cutthroat, pirate-ridden, nest of theives I have ever
seen!!! He was always getting broken into at home and the shop
in town (somewhere in Wa.) Files stolen, plans taken, prototypes
vanishing - then showing up in competitor's catalogues.

My point is: Secrecy is somtimes justified to keep the Bad Guys
from destroying you. However, not _all_ the time just for
secrecy's sake because it can be a gnawing, out of control beast
(like aformentioned doberman) and even when justified, controls
_you_.

GT McCoy






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 22

                     Re: Confirmation of Robert Stephens

From: Roger R. Prokic <rprokic@earthlink.net>
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 05:50:33 -0800 (PST)
Fwd Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 16:24:49 -0500
Subject: Re: Confirmation of Robert Stephens


>Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 00:50:02 -0600
>Subject: Confirmation of Robert Stephens
>From: Scot Bowlin <wubi@iquest.net>
>To: updates@globalserve.net

>[Non-Subscriber Post]

>To whom it may concern,
>
>Alot of you have noticed my name on many emails that have come
>from Robert A.M. Stephens since he entered the UFO field back on
>10-16-1998. I wanted to take this time to confirm a few things
>as true that Robert has been accused of falsifying. They need to
>be clarified now since the information he has offered to the UFO
>communtiy has been shown to be true over the time he has been
>involved pertinet to the UFO subject. A few more minor items
>need to be verified as well. His reluctance to reveal details
>about his service to this nation are his perogative. I'm
>countering his wishes a little here under the circumstances. His
>military record I am most confident will not be available in the
>public view.

>#3. Robert does have access to what he says he does. One does
>not have the badges he has without a very thorough security
>check. While I worked at NASA I had the lowest clearance that
>there was, Robert was much nearer the top, if my memory serves
>me he was one of a few who had direct access to the shuttle and
>anywhere on any center he wished to go---even the most snesitive
>areas at the various top secret air facilities and test beds. He
>had also gone through pre astronaut training for the artist in
>space project..

I think you are a fraud just like Robert is!

First off, you say Robert was one of a few that had security
clearances to access the space shuttle. Obviously, you don't
work there or you don't know what you're saying. There are
thousands of people that have direct access to the shuttle.

You say Robert has gone through pre-Astronaut training. This is
pure rubbish! There is no such thing as pre-astronaut training!
There is only astronaut training or there's not. Only a dozen or
so astronauts are selected every year or so from a huge list of
very qualified individuals. Robert does not fit those
qualifications as a documentation guru, artist or Navy SEAL!

I can say that I worked for NASA at Kennedy Space Center, and I
can state that I am one of a few on this list that has ever been
in the shuttle on many occasions.

If you don't believe me, go ahead and prove I'm lying. <g>

Roger R. Prokic
Telecom Design Lead
Mars Surveyor Program
Lockheed Martin Astronautics
Denver, Colorado USA
-=[sent from a Palm III & HandMail v2.0.1 ]=-






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 22

                       Re: Military Retirees & Secrecy

From: Bob Shell" <bob@bobshell.com>
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 09:01:42 +0000
Fwd Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 16:33:37 -0500
Subject: Re: Military Retirees & Secrecy


----------
>From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>To: "UFO UpDates Subscribers":;
>Subject: UFO UpDate: Re: Military Retirees & Secrecy
>Date: Fri, Jan 22, 1999, 5:15 AM
>

>
>Rodger,
>
>Hey man don't drag ME into this!!
>
>You're quite right, you've only been on this List a few months,
>and obviously don't know that Bob and I go back a "little
>longer". We first bumped into each other back in 1995 _and_ have
>had many many excellent exchanges both on UPDATES and via
>private email.
>

Roger came into this whole thing late, thought he had all the
answers, and got resoundingly smacked down.  He seems to have
a chip on his shoulder, and I have no intention of knocking it
off.

>I hold both Bob _and_ his opinions "photographic" in _very_ high
>regard.
>

Thanks, Neil.  And I respect you and your opinions as well.

>Ok, we don't agree on everything _but_ I have no problem with
>that AND I still hope to change Bobs mind in the future.<g>
>

My best friends tend to be the ones I disagree with.  I even get
on just fine with Phil Klass!!!!

>Friends and collegues are _allowed_ to have their own opinions
>Rodger.
>
>_But_ they're _sstill_ friends and collegues.
>
>(Bob MY CD's are "almost" on their way to you, I hope they may
>have you reconsider your stance)
>

My mind is open.  Actually my wife says my mind is a sieve, but
that's another matter.  I'm anxious to see what you've done.

Bob






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 22

                       Re: Military Retirees & Secrecy

From: Bob Shell <bob@bobshell.com>
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 09:01:42 +0000
Fwd Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 17:06:47 -0500
Subject: Re: Military Retirees & Secrecy

>Rodger,

>Hey man don't drag ME into this!!

>You're quite right, you've only been on this List a few months,
>and obviously don't know that Bob and I go back a "little
>longer". We first bumped into each other back in 1995 _and_ have
>had many many excellent exchanges both on UPDATES and via
>private email.

Roger came into this whole thing late, thought he had all the
answers, and got resoundingly smacked down.  He seems to have a
chip on his shoulder, and I have no intention of knocking it
off.

>I hold both Bob _and_ his opinions "photographic" in _very_ high
>regard.


Thanks, Neil.  And I respect you and your opinions as well.

>Ok, we don't agree on everything _but_ I have no problem with
>that AND I still hope to change Bobs mind in the future.<g>

My best friends tend to be the ones I disagree with. I even get
on just fine with Phil Klass!!!!

>Friends and collegues are _allowed_ to have their own opinions
>Rodger.

>_But_ they're _sstill_ friends and collegues.

>(Bob MY CD's are "almost" on their way to you, I hope they may
>have you reconsider your stance)

My mind is open. Actually my wife says my mind is a sieve, but
that's another matter.  I'm anxious to see what you've done.

Bob





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 22

                Re: Santilli Knew 'Tent Footage' Was a Fraud?

From: Bob Shell <bob@bobshell.com>
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 09:10:13 +0000
Fwd Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 17:11:29 -0500
Subject: Re: Santilli Knew 'Tent Footage' Was a Fraud?


>Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 21:41:31 -0500
>From: James Easton <pulsar@compuserve.com>
>Subject: Santilli Knew 'Tent Footage' Was a Fraud?
>To: UFO UpDates <updates@globalserve.net>

>"Santilli verified that the photographer does indeed claim that
>this was an emergency procedure carried out in a barn at the
>crash site after discovering that one of the two aliens was in
>fact still alive".

>Wow...

>So how could Ray Santilli have known the film setting was a
>barn? The default answer must be that he was fully aware of the
>film's true origins.


Good catch James! I missed that. Ray has always said to me that
the footage was shot in a tent, and it was always called the
Tent Footage.

I can personally confirm that there are no barns close to the
supposed crash site, either Michael Hesemann's site or mine.
Barns, in fact, are not at all common in New Mexico.

Bob






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 22

                          Re: Guilt By Association?

From: Gildas Bourdais <GBourdais@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 12:14:07 EST
Fwd Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 17:24:07 -0500
Subject: Re: Guilt By Association?


>Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 03:11:50 -0800
>From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Guilt By Association?

>>Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 20:13:58 +0000
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>From: Sean Jones <seanj@tedric.demon.co.uk>
>>Subject: Guilt By Association?

>>With the "Tent Footage" fully debunked by Tim and Phil, the
>>Alien Autopsy must also be fake/hoaxed/bogus purely because it
>>came from the same mill does it not?

>>I wonder is it time to take a vote people? All those who
>>believe the AA genuine hold your hands up, OK now all you who
>>think its fake hold your hands up.

In my opinion, the only rational answer is: we have no proof
yet, one way or another. It is highly suspect for many reasons,
if only because Ray Santilli has not given one foot of the
negative for analysis.

But this does not tell us what the film really is. That's plain
fact and therefore I wonder why you raise the question that way.
In this, I am glad to agree with Bob Shell.

The tent footage being of a different origin, the fact that it
is a fake just creates another smoke screen hiding the real
problem:

Who made the AA footage and for what purpose ?

Obviously not Santilli, who knew nothing about UFOs, as
confirmed by James Easton.

That leaves a lot of room for other hypotheses, doesn't it? For
my part, I stick to the idea that it is, very probably, an
operation of secret/Intelligences services.

Gildas Bourdais






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 22

              HG Wells 'War of the Worlds' - 100 Year Influence

From: Ed Stewart <ufoindex@jps.net>
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 11:33:52 -0800
Fwd Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 17:27:08 -0500
Subject: HG Wells 'War of the Worlds' - 100 Year Influence


Two articles that may be of interest to List members are found
in the current Mars Society web pages. The first one discusses
the 100 year past influence by H.G. Wells work:

"Reflections on the 100-Year Anniversity of The War of the
Worlds" - A frontier and literary history of Mars by Ryder
Miller

http://www.newmars.com/features/miller.asp

and the second examines the question of innovation on the
future:

"The Likely Influence of the Martian Frontier on Technological
Development: Lessons from Earth" - by Vernard Foley.

http://www.newmars.com/features/foley.asp

Ed Stewart

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ed Stewart ufoindex@jps.net|So Man, who here seems principal alone,
There Is Something         |Perhaps acts second to some sphere unknown.
   Going On!       ,>'?'<, |Touches some wheel, or verges to some goal,
Salvador Freixedo  ( O O ) |'Tis but a part we see, and not a whole.
---------------ooOO-(_)-OOoo------- Alexander Pope, Essay on Man -------





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 22

                           Re: UFO Communication?

From: Brian Straight <brians@mdbs.com>
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 09:40:05 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 17:17:57 -0500
Subject: Re:  UFO Communication?


>Subject: Re: UFO Communication?
>From: Mark Cashman <mcashman@ix.netcom.com>
>Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 14:31:53 -0500
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>

>>From: R=E9al Arsenault <aviano291@hotmail.com>
>>To: updates@globalserve.net
>>Subject: Re: UFO Communication?
>>Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 20:58:47 PST

>Not to pick on you, R=E9al, but I don't think there is any such
>thing as "magnetized" light.

Laser light, can however, be bent by a magnetic field.  It's the
quantum effect that most magneto-optical storage systems depend
upon.

Brian







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 22

              Strange Goings-On At Roswell International Museum

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 18:11:33 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 18:11:33 -0500
Subject: Strange Goings-On At Roswell International Museum





Source: The Roswell Continuum

http://roswell.net/

Click 'Editorial' - Left Frame

*International UFO Museum and Research Center*

Museum, Research Center, or Just Another Tourist Trap!?


PART 1

"Deception in the UFO Capitol of the World!"


January 22nd, 1999
by Jim Chambers

It has come to my attention that the International UFO Museum
and Research Center now has two, count them, two websites.

The original website, www.iufomrc.com, that was created by the
very talented Faeylyn Wylder, which has not been updated since
November 5th, 1998, and a new website, www.iufomrc.org, being
authored by Mr. Bob Bush.

Just what is the reason for having two sites? Well, it seems
that the IUFOMRC is undergoing major changes that need to be
looked into.

Since the resignation of Deon Crosby, Aug. 20th, 1998, the
Museum has been heading for a virtual crash. Why did Deon leave?
This is one of many questions that need to be answered. In the
wake of Deon's resignation, many things began to change in the
Museum's personel structure. On the morning of Oct. 28, 1998,
Laura Stephey, the Museum's Librarian, was fired for no reason.
On that same afternoon, Dennis Balthaser was told by Glenn
Dennis to sever all of his relationships with the Museum. Then
came yet another blow. On or around Nov.1, 1998, Faeylyn Wylder,
was stripped of her duties as webmaster, thus breaching a
contract that required 30 days notice by either Faeylyn or the
Museum to be terminated. Dennis Balthaser had written this
agreement and Glenn Dennis had read and signed the document.
Also the domain, which Faeylyn had paid for, and was in her name
with Internic was hi-jacked from her. All references to her as
the owner, registrant, and all access to the domain were erased.
This was accomplished by a mutual effort between the IUFOMRC and
the HostPros domain hosts.

Late last year, one of the board of directors from the Museum,
Max Littell, informed me that Deon's position of Director would
not be filled at that present time. Yet, they did hire an
"office manager", Mrs. Glenda Shafer, and made her "interim
director" who answers to the board of directors, Glen Dennis,
Walter Haut, and Max Littell.

My sources have informed me of "gestapo" like tactics that have
taken place at the Museum. Such as: personal U.S. mail to
volunteers being opened and re-directed elsewhere. Volunteers
being told not to discuss any of the internal business to anyone
outside of the Museum. All of the hard drives on the computers
at the Museum were combed through to see what Deon, Dennis,
Laura, and any other personel had written. Any e-mail left on
the hard drives have been read and privacy breached. Researchers
have been thrown out of the Museum Library that was donated to
the Museum by George Fawcett, the original owner of the
collection. He had given certain "historical ufologists"
permission to review his collection. I have been informed that
they will most certainly not set foot in the IUFOMRC again.

So just what is behind this shake down at the IUFOMRC? Could it
be that someone was getting too close to a "truth"? Or could it
be that outside forces are now in control of the Museum?





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 23

                       Re: What's The Point? - A Rant

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 17:31:44 EST
Fwd Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 19:42:40 -0500
Subject: Re: What's The Point? - A Rant


>From: Leanne Martin <leanne_martin@hotmail.com>
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Re: What's The Point? - A Rant
>Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 00:04:54 PST

>>From: John W. Ratcliff <jratcliff@worldnet.att.net>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>Subject: What's The Point? - A Rant
>>Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 00:33:05 -0600

>>I am ashamed to admit that I kind of, sort of, maybe, in a way,
>>sometimes believe there might really be such a thing as UFOs.
>>Of course, then all of the sudden, awash in existentialism, I
>>begin to question my definitions of what reality is.  Is 'it'
>>something objective, 'out there', fixed and stable ruled by
>>immutable laws of physics, only marred by my pathetic interface
>>system, my random and half incoherent excuse for self-aware
>>consciousness, and generally half psychotic bad attitude?
>
><snip>

>>of the likes of Art Bell, Richard Hoagland, god knows how many
>>other internet yahoos, radio talk show hosts, mega
>>bagzillionaire ex-CEO's, and their self-addled friends.

>>I give up.  Love and kisses.

>>John W. Ratcliff
>>Self Mutilating UFO Groupie

Dear John, Leanne, Entities lurking and Abductee/Believer
Wannabees, I shall endeavor to refrain from ranting and attempt
to address an opinion-oid of my own on the various woids written
herein....

>Unlike John, I am not ashamed to admit that there might be UFOs,
>ghosts, goblins, Chuppa-chups, fairies at the bottom of the
>garden, bigfoots (bigfeet?) and alien abductions, etc. (**Note
>the words _might_, please.) John, what a good rant, be careful
>though as it was fully coherent. Isn'to that breaking the
>tradition?  <g>

We are so pleased and happy to hear this, we shall celebrate
this very night with a freshly made bottle of Gripple!

>Like John I, too, love the topic of UFOs and scour the List,
>news agents, bookshelves and the web testing my credulity daily.
>Often I wonder, too, whether my 'interface' is awry because I
>want so much to believe in things for which the evidence is
>lacking. I really do want to believe.

Please, feel free to do so at any time.  Not only is it de
rigour, it also tickles...

>When I express my opinions as to why I am not a 'confirmed
>believer' in a very exacting, coherent and logical way, and
>probing for a proof positive I am assailed as if I am the
>Anti-Christ herself!

Uh, perhaps the anti Virgin.  And here is where I would like to
throw up.... sorry, I mean throw in my two cents.

You may be logical and coherent, and you are certainly
extracting, as well, your are a seeker of truth.  However I for
one, feel compelled to inform that in doing all of the above
coher-ing and logic-ing, that to me at least, you extract
something very personal in your posts.

Specifically, I am made to feel, in some of your posts, that for
_me_ to believe based on my experiences is what you denigrate.
I do not wish to impose what I perceive (note the word,
_perceive_), I do not wish to impose my perceptions on your
belief systems.  I perceive that I have been abducted on
numerous occasions since early childhood.

It's OK for you to believe that this perception on my part may
very well be a bit of undigested beef.  But to me, it is very
real.  I don't like hearing that I am full of Tyrannosaurus Dung
in believing my own experiences.

Further, your use and choice of words in decrying the belief
systems of others relating to religion, the Virgin or other
matters, is an insult to me, personally.

>The assailants, for the most part, seem not

Good choice of words... _assailants_ eh?  Makes me feel very
warm and toasty when I read the word. So anyone who does not
hold your opinion and tells you so, and further make the mistake
of telling you they are insulted by your attitude, is an
assailant!??

>to be able to step back and look at themselves and their
>'evidence' as would any unbiased and dispassionate researcher of
>any subject. (**Note I said _for the most part_.) I attacked _no
>individual_, but I have no compunction whatsoever about o
>attacking bad logic. I used religious references to point out
>their zeal and that reminds me: Which religion is the one true
>faith - each one _knows_ that it is? Which alien abduction/s
>scenario/s is/are the truth? There are far too, too many to
>choose from in religions and alien abductions and each one is
>adamant that their's is the way and the truth and the light. If
>they are all true then there are tens of thousands of gods and
>perhaps a few hundred totally different alien species with
>unique reasons to abduct you.
>
>(I dare say, the most 'believable' abduction stories are the
>ones where it happens without rhyme, reason, or explanation. It
>reminds me so much of human nature - where someone with the
>absolute power to do something will do it - coldly, bluntly,
>brutally - simply because they can and see no reason to do
>otherwise.)

'Scuse me.... por favor, but what the hell does that mean? _The
most believable abduction stories are the ones where it happens
without rhyme or reason_??? You are going to have to splain that
one, Lucy. I can only conclude that an abduction where it
happens with rhyme and reason is something that is
believable.... Duh!?

>As stated above there _might_ be all manner of curious things
on >our world, and around it, of the likes mentioned in this
List. >There actually might be! As there might be mentally
unwell >people who claim to be abductees there might equally be
those >who truly are abductees. (I feel terribly sorry for
either >experience as both appear equally horrible to go
through.) I am >fully entitled to not believe in them until the
proof is in the >pudding, just as others do already believe in
them.

I take no exception to that.  But please, allow me to repeat
your previous posts and you decide if I am too sensitive, or
else I'm gettin soft.  I know, I know... another Dylan quote out
of context, sue me.

>I feel a bit sad
>for anyone whose life is so empty that they will choose a religion
>to fill it. In some ways it is sadder than the child who is raised
>in a particular religion, indoctrinated from birth, without ever
>being asked their permission.
>I consider myself a 'christian' (not Christian) in that I follow
>JC's tenet of "do unto others...", but there is no way I would join
>a church or organized religion and allow myself to be manipulated
>by such a group for their own self serving ends

Say, am I too sensitive or what?  Give at least some of us
enough credit for using our own brains and intellect.  By this
inappropriate remark(s) you are accusing me and others like me
that because I choose to practice a faith my life is empty?  And
the check is in the mail and don't worry sweetheart, I'm
sterile!

And how about......

>Yes, people who have mental problems misperceive reality and
>that is why I added 'true-life experiencers' for all I know
>there may well be some - it is just unfortunate for your/their
>case that the evidence is lacking. Any 'true-life experiencers'
>words carry little more weight than those of others if there is
>no solid evidence to back them up - it's a fact of science life

Oh shoot, there I go again, being sensitive over someone telling
me I have mental problems.  God, I am such a dip!

And then there was the one about the.....

>This comment is sad, so sad . . . I don't have 'faith' that
>these happen and that makes me a 'sad person' - what illogical
>crap. Is this a religious List? When was EBK declared 'Il Papa
>del OVNI' and the List a diocese?
>Why should I be expected to believe something someone tells me
>about an 'alien abduction' any more than some religious nut
>ranting at me to have 'faith' in their belief that Mary was a
>virgin in the medical sense and not in a socially specificsense.

Now for the piece of resistance..... You have made your opinions
quite clear.  And I do not take exception to the basic message
you embrace.... "Give me the proof!"  Got no problem with that.
The problem I have is your choice of words, your attitude and
the manner in which you demean.... mean it or not.  That's the
way it comes across to me.

Just lower the volume a bit and I won't be so damned sensitive
at being referred to as a religious nut, misperceive reality and
generally have the same type of problems I would ordinarily have
on Gripple.

OK?

>On my recent holidays in Tasmania I happened upon two seperate
>crop circles. I did not ascribe any supernatural or 'out of this
>world' nature to them. I took them for what they are - anomolies
>that are awaiting an explanation. To my mind that is what UFOs,
>abduction experiences, etc., are - various anomolies (real or
>imagined) that are awaiting explanations.

Only too true, Leanne.

>Back to John's rant (sorry, mate, I didn't want to hijack your
>rant) - what's the point? When I grow up I'll buy a rant of my
>own . . . maybe a chicken rant, or a sheep rant, or a cattle
>rant, or a dude rant - I know, a Hoagland rant with lots of
>little Hoagies running around . . .

>Regards (stirring the possum as ever),
>Leanne  ];-)


I have a belief system, you have a belief system.  I am sure
that you recognize that whether it comes to religion, politics
and UFO's, there will be opinions.  Got no problem with
opinions, just a serious problem with voicing them with the
strength of the emotion.  And, I am the first to admit that when
it comes to religion, politics, nugs (I tend to be dyslexic) and
UFO's, I am the first person who should tone it down and wait
for the Valium to take affect.  For which I apologize to all
concerned.

I reread all your posts.  Mixed in between the rancor and the
sarcasm, they make sense.

Oh, and by the way, I too, must apologize for my getting angry.
After your departure for Tasmania, I posted an apology to the
list which basically said that the next time I feel the urge to
merge logic and reason with emotion, I shall wait 24 hours to
cool off and the valium to kick in before hitting "SEND."

Jim





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 23

                               Re: Good Puzzle

From: Daev Walsh - Blather <daev@blather.net>
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 16:53:30 +0000
Fwd Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 19:45:21 -0500
Subject: Re: Good Puzzle

______________________________________________________
B  L  A  T  H  E  R

p a r a n o r m a l   p r o v o c a t e u r i s m

By Dave (daev) Walsh daev@blather.net
Web: http://www.blather.net
_______________________________________________________
January 22nd 1999, Dublin, Ireland   Vol 2. No. 35
_______________________________________________________

_______________________________________________________
FATE Magazine: True Reports of the Strange and Unknown
Reporting on UFOs, psychic phenomena, ghosts and hauntings,
mystery animals, and other mystical experiences since 1948.
To subscribe, call 1-800-728-2730 (U.S.) or visit
http://www.fatemag.com
______________________________________________________


GOOD PUZZLE

Just as the by-now traditional pre-Christmas rash of Irish UFO
predictions had apparently given way to a New Year lull, our
blatherbubble has been punctured by a painful article in *The
Boston Herald* (of all places). This newspaper gave column
inches to Blather's favourite UFO proponent, Eamon Ansbro, in a
suitably skin-crawling article by one Jim Dee. After wading
through the cringeworthy opening paragraph, which rattles on
about the 'Emerald Isle', 'Land of a Thousand Welcomes', and
'legendary hospitality', we're told that Ireland is now
welcoming tourists from outer space. This is, of course,
according to Ansbro - cited as a 'self-taught UFO expert',
prompting the question - how many UFO 'experts' are not
self-taught? We could proceed from here, wondering how one
becomes expert in objects deemed as unidentified, but...


Anyhow - Ansbro's latest prediction for the appearance of UFOs
is for Dublin at 0500 hrs on January 30th, followed by sightings
in Boyle, 'Co. Rosscommon' (sic) in February, which he says is
"a UFO hotspot'. Blather cannot say whether or not Roscommon is
a UFO hotspot, but we would presume to assume that it may be a
'ufologist hotspot', with UFO proponents clamouring to the area,
like flies to a surgically performed cattle mutilation. This
ufological obsession may be due to the claims of a 'UFO crash'
in the area, a rumour that has been circulating for some time,
and has been dealt with by Blather in earlier issues.

Dee, amidst puerile remarks about leprechauns, Irish hospitality
and 'Forty Shades of Green', tells us that while Ansbro can't
quite explain why Ireland is so popular among these alleged
extra-terrestrial tourists, he does mention Ireland's political
neutrality and 'druidic past' as possible motives.

'"Ireland isn't going to send up some fleet of F-16s and blast
UFOs out - which has been done, apparently, by the Americans" in
the 1950s', continues the article. Blather could pedantically
point out that Ireland has no F-16s, and neither had the USA in
the 50s... but what Ansbro probably assumes is that the Irish
Defence forces wouldn't be too perturbed about extraterrestrials
wandering into the island's airspace. Blather would suggest that
in the unlikely case of the Irish government becoming aware of
such an *identified* extraterrestrial incursion, they may well
realise that 'resistance is futile'. Any *unidentified*
incursion would surely raise a few eyebrows, and would thus be
challenged in some shape or form.

Ansbro, however, has apparently identified "an automated
surveillance" by a large "camouflaged" craft at an altitude of
80,000-90,000ft (24400-27400m), which "periodically ejects UFOs
to orbit and scan the Earth below", using Ireland's megalithic
sites as "vortexial energy points" - which translated, seems to
mean navigation beacons. Ansbro's Program for Extraterrestrial
Research (PEIR) claim that 80 per cent of worldwide alien
tourists pass over megalithic sites. Such seems to be the case
in PEIR's claims about Ireland, leading us to ponder on whether
Mr. Ansbro has been funding his research by writing screenplays
for Gene Roddenberry's *Earth: Final Conflict* (episode #113
featured much ado about Irish megalithic sites and aliens).


'Good puzzle would be cross Dublin without passing a pub.' -
Leopold Bloom, in *Ulysses* by James Joyce


'Good puzzle would be cross Ireland without passing a megalithic
site.' - Dave (daev) Walsh, in *Good Puzzle*, Blather Vol. 2.35,
Jan 22nd 1998



But back to all this talk of January 30th - a quick check with
Astronomy Ireland revealed no significant astronomical events
for that night - nothing comparable to the December Geminids
anyway. However, on January 12th, David Gullick made this
comment on the UFO Updates Mailing List:

'In Dublin on Jan 30th, at 5:00am Daylight saving time The
Pleiades [a.k.a. *The Seven Sisters*] are just above the
horizon. At 5:01am Electra is just at the horizon at precisely
43.1 deg north of west. At 5:07 The Pleiades are below the
horizon.'

Interestingly, the prediction has been made for five o'clock in
the morning - how many people are going to be awake at that time
to witness such a wondrous event? Of those who *are* awake, and
scanning the skies for intergalactic tourists, how many will be
barely awake, or sleep deprived? If this Blatherumskite is
conscious at that low time of the morning, he may well feel one
or the other...

[Thanks to Tim Brigham (Devil's Advocate), Kelly McGillis, David
Moore (Astronomy Ireland), David Gullick and for also Iain
Bryson, who we
forgot to thank for last week's Furry Cat story]


- and for those who are curious as to the meaning of 'Blatherumskite,
see http://www.blather.net/blatherskite.html

Dave (daev) Walsh
22st January 1998


NOTES:
*Expert says Ireland is newest hotspot for alien spaceships*
Boston Herald, Monday, January 11, 1999
http://www.bostonherald.com/bostonherald/nat/alien01111999.htm

*Blather Archives: Passports For Aliens?*
http://www.blather.net/archives/issue1no22.html

*Blather Archives: On the Boyle*
http://www.blather.net/archives2/issue2no10.html

*Earth: Final Conflict: The Secret of Strand Hill* -- Episode #113
http://earth.finalconflict.com/ep113.htm

Chapter 4, *Calypso* in *Ulysses* by James Joyce
http://www.bibliomania.com/Fiction/joyce/ulysses/calypso.html

*Ireland Newest Hotspot For Alien Spaceships?* - David Gullick
UFO UpDates Mailing List
http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates/1999/jan/m12-036.shtml


Astronomy Ireland
http://ireland.iol.ie/~ai/

M45 - The Pleiades
http://www.mid.tec.sc.us/edu/ed/sci/ac3m45pg.html

The Pleiades
http://www.mcneese.edu/colleges/science/physics/observatory/pleiades.h
tm

The Pleiades... according to the ancient Greeks
http://www.windows.umich.edu/cgi-bin/redirect.cgi/mythology/pleiades.h
tml

Seven Sisters
http://earthsky.com/1998/es980110.html

The Pleiades Open Cluster
http://ardbeg.astro.utoledo.edu/~karen/pleiades.html
_______________________________________________________

NiceOne - Ireland's No.1 Internet Directory
NiceOne provides access to over 4,000 Irish Websites
supporting Irish products & Services on the World Wide Web.
(http://www.niceone.com)
_______________________________________________________

SPONSORSHIP:
While Blather will always remain free to the subscriber, we're
always willing to talk to interested parties with regard to
sponsorship.
Contact: daev@blather.net

_______________________________________________________

For the Blather archives, please go to:
http://www.blather.net/archives/index.html

_______________________________________________________


SUBSCRIBING TO BLATHER
Send an email to:
<list@blather.net>
with the word
subscribe
in the body of the message. An automatic acknowledgement
should be returned to you by e-mail within a few minutes.

UNSUBSCRIBING
Send an email to
<list@blather.net>
with the word
unsubscribe
in the body of the message.

_______________________________________________________





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 23

                   Re: BUFORA Watch - The Wall of Silence

From: Stephen Mera <s_mera@yahoo.com>
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 16:30:13 -0800 (PST)
Fwd Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 19:51:03 -0500
Subject: Re: BUFORA Watch - The Wall of Silence

>From: Mike Wootten <ej77@dial.pipex.com>
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: BUFORA Watch - The Wall of Silence
>Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 11:29:21 GMT


>--------------------------------------------
>BUFORA WATCH - The Wall of Silence
>--------------------------------------------

>As BUFORA has now become a shadow of its former self with no
>direction or drive, some active members have been asking the
>BUFORA Council some simple questions relating to what is
>perceived to be a wholesale mismanagement of an Association that
>they have a legal share in.

>For some time now these qiestions have been asked and asked
>again will little or no reply; highlighting the contempt the
>BUFORA Council have for its membership.

<snip>

Hi Mike,

I hope you and Gaynor are well, havent seen you in years.....?

I read this with no surprise, its about time such questions were
asked about BUFORA policies. Anyway, I don't take part in much
BUFORA debate since I left after political troubles with other
members. Seems that everyone is more interested in how an
organisation should be run rather than UFO investigation and
research. But, ... good for John. Maybe one day he'll get a
suitable answer.... or not!

Anyway, take care of yourself and, do keep in touch.

Catch you later,

Steve Mera : Manchester.
==





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 23

              Alex Collier (Andromedan 'Contactee') - Exposed?

From: Bob Soetebier <bikebob@mo.net>
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 18:46:02 -0600 (CST)
Fwd Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 19:58:31 -0500
Subject: Alex Collier (Andromedan 'Contactee') - Exposed?


Alex Collier -- "Andromedan 'Contactee'" -- Exposed?


The following exerptation is taken from an article entitled,
"Beyond Great UFO Photos: An Inquiry Into The Billy Meier Case,"
written by Michael Horn (a self-proclaimed Billy Meier
supporter). The excerpted text appears, as part of the
above-mentioned article, on page 49 in the March, 1999, (Vol.
14, No. 3) issue of "UFO Magazine" (Sunland, CA).:

[....]

In 1986, I was in Sedona, Arizona....  ...I noticed the only
other customer in the place dining alone, and invited him to
join us. Ralph was a former IRS agent who, as it turned out, was
also very fascinated with UFOs.  ...he invited me to contact him
at his Malibu, California, home when I returned to the city. It
turned out that not only did Ralph have the famous [Billy Meier]
"Contact from the Pleiades...Volume 1" he also had "...Volume 2"
and the "Contact Notes," an 1800-plus page copy of a document
the existence of which was previously unknown to me.

[....]

Ralph, whose last name was Amagran (or something similar; it's
been over 12 years) was a great aficionado of the case and
generously loaned me the whole transcript.

We became friends and occasionally spent evenings outside his
home in the hills overlooking the Pacific Ocean, scanning the
star-studded sky for UFOs.  We probably spent more time getting
excited by the distant approach of incoming Cessnas and seagulls
than any two people ever have, before or since.  It's a toss-up
as to who had the biggest imagination at the time, but Ralph may
have finally edged me out.  He's since changed his name to Alex
Collier and declared himself to be a long-time Andromedan
contactee.  Apparently the Andromedans told him an awful lot of
the exact same stuff that the Pleiadians told Meier, which he
suddenly remembered.  What a coincidence!

[....]







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 23

                       Re: Military Retirees & Secrecy

From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 20:00:45 +0000
Fwd Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 20:01:54 -0500
Subject: Re: Military Retirees & Secrecy


>From: Bob Shell <bob@bobshell.com>
>Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 09:01:42 +0000
>Fwd Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 17:06:47 -0500
>Subject: Re: Military Retirees & Secrecy

Previously, Bob wrote:

>Roger came into this whole thing late, thought he had all the
>answers, and got resoundingly smacked down.

What? By you? In your dreams, pal.

At no point did you or anyone else smack me down, resoundingly,
or otherwise. I stand by my opinions regarding AA; they make
sense across the board and I can defend every one of them. At
least mine are based on the realities of producing film
entertainment, which is exactly what the AA video is until
proven otherwise.

Moving on, Bob claims:

>He seems to have a
>chip on his shoulder, and I have no intention of knocking it
>off.

Good thing, Bob.

You'd need a much better vertical jump than you do.

However you do make an effort, when ever you can, of pointing
out your position as editor of a photographic magazine and all
the man hours you spent investigating the AA footage as if the
position and effort have any relationship to the results you
got.

And just what were the results?

Nothing.

You have yet to see the actual footage and you've never talked
to the cameraman and you never found the location of the
incident. I can appreciate your effort, but constantly citing
your background and position do not make up for the big blanks
in your conclusions; or the lack of any conclusions altogether.
Beyond that, you seem to selectively choose which of Santilli's
statements you wish to believe and which ones you don't, despite
the fact that there's no evidence to back up any of them.

Oh, yeah, man. You smacked me down BAD.

BTW, no I did not know about your relationship with Neil Morris.
Sorry if I got that wrong, Neil. My mistake. On the other hand,
I'd hate to see how Bob treats his enemies if this is how he
treats his friends.

But then, Bob states:

> My best friends tend to be the ones I disagree with.

Then I must be about the best friend you've got, Bob! <G>

Later,

Roger Evans





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 23

                       Re: What's The Point? - A Rant

From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 20:52:50 +0000
Fwd Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 20:14:51 -0500
Subject: Re: What's The Point? - A Rant



>From: Leanne Martin <leanne_martin@hotmail.com>
>Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 00:04:54 PST
>Fwd Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 15:54:44 -0500
>Subject: Re: What's The Point? - A Rant

Previously, Leanne wrote:

>When I grow up I'll buy a rant of my
>own . . . maybe a chicken rant, or a sheep rant, or a cattle
>rant, or a dude rant - I know, a Hoagland rant with lots of
>little Hoagies running around . . .

Hi Leanne!

Might I suggest an Ant Rant (as opposed to an Aunt Farm where my
Uncle goes for conjugal visits on Sundays). They're great for
the apartment dweller that wants a big spread on a tight budget.
Version 2.0 is supposed to have fewer bugs, I hear.;)

Great to have you back! Hope your trip was fun. I tried my best
to keep things stirred up while you were gone. However, I am not
worthy of the position. I bow in awe to your superior
capabilities.

All hail Leanne! Goddess of Torment! <G>

Take care,

Roger Evans





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 23

                           Re: UFO Communication?

From: Roy Hale <roy.hale@virgin.net>
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 03:55:09 -0000
Fwd Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 21:01:05 -0500
Subject: Re: UFO Communication?


Hi All,

I received a sighting tonight from a member of the public, and
whilst chatting over the finer details of the UFO sighting, the
witness happened to mention that he was originally from Ghana
(West Africa).

He told me about a folklore, which concerned little figures
appearing in the homes of people and subsequently abducting
them, apparently this is well known in Ghana folklore and there
are drawings of these little fellows, from which he went on to
inform me, "They look pretty much like the Grey Alien". These
type of occurrences apparently have been carrying on for
centuries, so I am wondering if there maybe anyone on the list
who might have come across such figures, relating to this story,
or if someone might have a web-site for me to check out for
further inquires?

Regards,

Roy..





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 23

                             A Tale from Africa

From: Roy Hale <roy.hale@virgin.net>
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 03:55:09 -0000
Fwd Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 21:00:23 -0500
Subject: A Tale from Africa


Hi All,

I received a sighting tonight from a member of the public, and
whilst chatting over the finer details of the UFO sighting, the
witness happened to mention that he was originally from Ghana
(West Africa).

He told me about a folklore, which concerned little figures
appearing in the homes of people and subsequently abducting
them, apparently this is well known in Ghana folklore and there
are drawings of these little fellows, from which he went on to
inform me, "They look pretty much like the Grey Alien". These
type of occurrences apparently have been carrying on for
centuries, so I am wondering if there maybe anyone on the list
who might have come across such figures, relating to this story,
or if someone might have a web-site for me to check out for
further inquires?

Regards,

Roy..





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 24

                           'Sorry, We'll Be Late'

From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 23:01:23 EST
Fwd Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 00:07:40 -0500
Subject: 'Sorry, We'll Be Late'


Thought you'd be interested in this from New Scientist mag.

Clear skies,
Bob Young

--------------------------------------------------

From: New Scientist, 23 January 1999

Sorry, we'll be late

Robert Matthews


Gamma-ray bursts--incredibly powerful explosions that may be
caused by collisions between collapsed stars--could solve one of
the oldest riddles about extraterrestrial civilisations: why
haven't they reached Earth already? After studying the effects
of gamma-ray bursts on life, an astrophysicist has concluded
that aliens may have just started to explore their galaxies.

Enthusiasts for the existence of extraterrestrials have long
been haunted by a simple question supposedly posed by the Nobel
prizewinning physicist Enrico Fermi around 1950. Fermi pointed
out that the Galaxy is about 100 000 light years across. So even
if a spacefaring race could explore the Galaxy at only a
thousandth of the speed of light, it would take them just 100
million years to spread across the entire Galaxy. This is far
less than the Galaxy's age of about 10 billion years.

So if ETs exist in the Milky Way, where are they? Maybe they
don't share the human urge to explore. Or perhaps there's
another reason, says James Annis, an astrophysicist at Fermilab
near Chicago. He thinks cataclysmic gamma-ray bursts often
sterilise galaxies, wiping out life forms before they have
evolved sufficiently to leave their planet (Journal of the
British Interplanetary Society, vol 52, p 19). GRBs are thought
to be the most powerful explosions in the Universe, releasing as
much energy as a supernova in seconds. Many scientists think the
bursts occur when the remnants of dead stars such as neutron
stars or black holes collide.

Annis points out that each GRB unleashes devastating amounts of
radiation. "If one went off in the Galactic centre, we here
two-thirds of the way out on the Galactic disc would be exposed
over a few seconds to a wave of powerful gamma rays." He
believes this would be lethal to life on land.

The rate of GRBs is about one burst per galaxy every few hundred
million years. But Annis says theories of GRBs suggest the rate
was much higher in the past, with galaxies suffering one strike
every few million years--far shorter than any plausible time
scale for the emergence of intelligent life capable of space
travel. That, says Annis, may be the answer to Fermi's question.
"They just haven't had enough time to get here yet," he says.
"The GRB model essentially resets the available time for the
rise of intelligent life to zero each time a burst occurs."

Paul Davies, a visiting physicist at Imperial College, London,
says the basic idea for resolving the paradox makes sense. "Any
Galaxy-wide sterilising event would do," he says. However, he
adds that GRBs may be too brief: "If the drama is all over in
seconds, you only zap half a planet. The planet's mass shields
the shadowed side." Annis counters that GRBs are likely to have
many indirect effects, such as wrecking ozone layers that
protect planets from deadly levels of ultraviolet radiation.

Annis also highlights an intriguing implication of the theory:
the current rate of GRBs allows intelligent life to evolve for a
few hundred million years before being zapped, possibly giving
it enough time to reach the spacefaring stage. "It may be that
intelligent life has recently sprouted up at many places in the
Galaxy and that at least a few groups are busily engaged in
spreading."







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 24

                Re: Santilli Knew 'Tent Footage' Was a Fraud?

From: Dennis Stacy<dstacy@texas.net>
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 22:33:41 -0600 (CST)
Fwd Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 01:36:53 -0500
Subject: Re: Santilli Knew 'Tent Footage' Was a Fraud?

>From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
>Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 08:20:40 +0000
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: Santilli Knew 'Tent Footage' Was a Fraud?

>Hi James,

>As Bob Shell pointed out in an earlier post, 16mm B&W motion
>picture film from 1947 would have to be processed totally
>different since it would require different chemicals at a lower
>temperature. Bob correctly pointed out that the emulsion of the
>old film would come right off using contemporary processing.

>If the info about Santilli processing the film is true, then it
>should be fairly easy to find the lab that did the work.

<snip>

Wasn't the film already processed, ie, developed, when Santilli
acquired it? Has it ever been claimed that Santilli received
unprocessed/undeveloped film?

Just curious about my bandwidth,

Dennis






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 24

                           Re: UFO Communication?

From: Rick Goldsmith <rgoldsm@synapse.net>
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 23:49:26 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 01:47:02 -0500
Subject: Re: UFO Communication?


>From: Brian Straight <brians@mdbs.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto" <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: UFO Communication?
>Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 09:40:05 -0500

>>Subject: Re: UFO Communication?
>>From: Mark Cashman <mcashman@ix.netcom.com>
>>Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 14:31:53 -0500
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>

>>>From: R=E9al Arsenault <aviano291@hotmail.com>
>>>To: updates@globalserve.net
>>>Subject: Re: UFO Communication?
>>>Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 20:58:47 PST

>>Not to pick on you, R=E9al, but I don't think there is any such
>>thing as "magnetized" light.

>Laser light, can however, be bent by a magnetic field.  It's the
>quantum effect that most magneto-optical storage systems depend
>upon.

>Brian

Fascinating thread folks, but Brian; Are you sure this is what
mag.-opt. storage depend upon? Seems to me, you would need one
hell of a magnetic field to divert a laser. Is it propogated in
a coil of some kind? When you consider you need something on the
order of a star's gravitational field to bend the path of less
exotic sources of light, I think it would take a magnetic field
of similiar magnitude to do the same thing to a beam of
collimated light.  Okay, maybe an accelerator, but something major.

Now, the path of an electron, I could see that. T.V.'s do it all
the time. Could it be that this is what is going on in the
storage device you mentioned?

On Another Note...    (G#)

Everybody knows that these aliens actually communicate
hypersonically with an organ in their foreheads, similiar to the
one present in dolphins. Seems telepathic, but it's not. That's
why when they stare you in the eyes, you are most vulnerable to
their mind-influencing sonic control. The big dark eyes are just
that added touch to make the effect that much more hypnotic.
They are actually genetically altered dolphins, designed with a
specific mission in mind. They're the advanced scouting missions
for their return to dry land. They decided that being an
ocean-dwelling mammal wasn't such a great idea after all. It
seems that having to come up to the surface for a breath of air
all the time is getting somewhat tedious. Rant of The Week
material? You be the judge.   :)

R.G.





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 24

                  Ziff-Davis TV: Friday's Chat With Firmage

From: Sue Kovios <bradford@globalserve.net>
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 01:21:41 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 01:54:55 -0500
Subject: Ziff-Davis TV: Friday's Chat With Firmage


Visit the URL below for 'the scoop': (make sure you copy the
whole url)

http://www.zdnet.com/zdtv/interact/chats/story/0,3700,2191782,00.html


Sue





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 24

               Sighting - Bollon near St George Qld, Australia

From: Diane Harrison <tkbnetw@fan.net.au>
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 20:49:08 +1000
Fwd Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 02:02:37 -0500
Subject: Sighting - Bollon near St George Qld, Australia


The Keith Basterfield Network Australasia
tkbnetw@fan.net.au

****************************************************************

UFO Australian  Research Network Hot Line Number
                       1800 77 22 88 Free Call

****************************************************************


Sighting Report:  Bollon near St George Qld, Australia

1800 Callin Code: 00036

Date: 22nd Jan 1999
Day: Friday
Time Reported: 9.13am
Source: Joe M
Age:  33 year
Location: Bolloon 100klm west of St George, Queensland
Tel: xx xxxx
Report Given to nearest Rep: Diane Harrison UFOICQ
E- mail:  tkbnetw@fan.net.au

Message: Please call back, I saw a UFO last Saturday night 17th
1 1999 would like to report it:

Report taken by Telephone: St George is approximately 780km
west of Brisbane, Bolloon 100km west of St George.

Joe Said: I was on night shift Saturday 17th driving a tractor
out in the cotton fields, I turned the tractor around to the
west, when I saw this bright yellow light, it was oblong shape,
size of a shirt button at arms length.

At first I thought it was plane with a bright light, so I kept
working not paying much attention to it for a further 5 minutes.
I turned the tractor around again and saw that this light was
still there.

I thought this is strange if it's a plane how come its still in
the same place. So I turned of the tractor to see if I could
hear any engine noise No sound hum, I climbed out of the cab to
get a better look, then the light moved at great speed to the
right and stopped, it did it a second time.

I thought wow that's no plane so I got back in the cab and lock
the doors. I sat there just watching it, the object started to
fad from a bright yellow to 2 bright bluish purple star objects
about a meter apart, it was as though they where not attached in
the middle because you could see between them, they both started
to move very quickly "then I lost them".

Q. How did you feel?

A. Bl****dy scared I never believed in UFOs before but now I
suppose I'll have to.

Joe said: I rang the St George police Monday morning and asked
if anyone else had reported seeing anything strange that night,
the policeman on duty said yes there had been quite a few
reports on Saturday night of lights in the sky. The police said
they where in liaison with the aviation authorities to find out
what it was, the police where of the opinion that it was a crop
plane.

Q. What do you think Joe,

A. Ha!! It was! No! Crop plane I have been working these fields
for many years and I know my planes, this thing had no sound and
traveled faster than any crop plane I've ever seen before. I'm
going to keep intouch with the police to see if they get anymore
information, will call you iif they do. (U/I)

Report form sent out.

Regards,

Diane Harrison







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 24

                Re: Santilli Knew 'Tent Footage' Was a Fraud?

From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net>
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 03:47:32 -0800
Fwd Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 02:39:50 -0500
Subject: Re: Santilli Knew 'Tent Footage' Was a Fraud?


Dear Bob and James:

A big snip and a small point ( below )


>Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 09:10:13 +0000
>Subject: Re: Santilli Knew 'Tent Footage' Was a Fraud?
>From: Bob Shell <bob@bobshell.com>

>>From: James Easton <pulsar@compuserve.com>
>>Subject: Santilli Knew 'Tent Footage' Was a Fraud?
>>To: UFO UpDates <updates@globalserve.net>

>>"Santilli verified that the photographer does indeed claim that
>>this was an emergency procedure carried out in a barn at the
>>crash site after discovering that one of the two aliens was in
>>fact still alive".

>>Wow...

>>So how could Ray Santilli have known the film setting was a
>>barn? The default answer must be that he was fully aware of the
>>film's true origins.

>Good catch James! I missed that. Ray has always said to me that
>the footage was shot in a tent, and it was always called the
>Tent Footage.

>I can personally confirm that there are no barns close to the
>supposed crash site, either Michael Hesemann's site or mine.
>Barns, in fact, are not at all common in New Mexico.

>Bob

Now that you mention it, I've crossed New Mexico on a number of
routes, and I have _never_ seen a barn there. I'm sure there are
some barns, but they would stick out like a sore thumb; most
especially in the virtually deserted nearly Mars like high
desert between Corona and Roswell, NM.

If Santilli really believed in his own films, he would have them
independently authenticated by whatever means necessary to
convince himself and the world at large.

Compelling evidence of alien activities may well exist
somewhere, but I'm not going to waste any more time on the likes
of Santilli.




Best wishes

- Larry Hatch

PS: By coincidence, the two times I stopped in Roswell were both
Sunday evenings .. separated by an interval of almost exactly
twenty years! Each time I asked where I could get a beer, and
some kid working at a burger joint looked as puzzled as if I had
asked for directions to the Eiffel Tower.

Is Roswell a dry city, or is Chaves County dry?

Is Sunday a "dry day" in NM, as in South Carolina, Wyoming
and certain other bible thumping states?

Did I chance upon the two most clueless kids west of Memphis?

Maybe the first "burger-meister" was the father of the second.

The "Land of Enchantment" is full of coincidences.

I have an oddly similar Nevada story, in case anyone is
interested.


- LH







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 24

                           Re: UFO Communication?

From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net>
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 04:00:46 -0800
Fwd Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 02:43:37 -0500
Subject: Re: UFO Communication?


Dear Brian, Mark and Real:

>From: Brian Straight <brians@mdbs.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto" <updates@globalserve.net>
>Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 09:40:05 -0500

>>Subject: Re: UFO Communication?
>>From: Mark Cashman <mcashman@ix.netcom.com>
>>Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 14:31:53 -0500

>>>From: R=E9al Arsenault <aviano291@hotmail.com>
>>>To: updates@globalserve.net
>>>Subject: Re: UFO Communication?

>>Not to pick on you, R=E9al, but I don't think there is any such
>>thing as "magnetized" light.

>Laser light, can however, be bent by a magnetic field. It's the
>quantum effect that most magneto-optical storage systems depend
>upon.

>Brian

Dear Brian:

Are you sure of that? I honestly don't know myself, but I never
heard that light (chargeless photons) could be deflected by a
magnetic field!

Is it only laser light, or perhaps all forms of light?

Please fill me in a bit! Are you sure that the magnetic field
deflects or bends the laser beam; rather than simply
repositioning the laser gun?

Would the same thing happen ( uselessly of course ) with an
ordinary incoherent beam of light?

I agree that there is no "magnetized light" of course. Neither
is there such a thing as "gravitated light", yet Einstein
correctly predicted that a gravitational field could bend beams
of light!

Quite a different proposition eh?







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 24

                            Alfred's Odd Ode #290

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 07:34:46 -0600
Fwd Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 02:46:18 -0500
Subject: Alfred's Odd Ode #290


Apology to MW #290 (For January 23, 1999)

Alarming! RAM Stephens is at best mere distraction, a ripple of
nonsense to scatter like wind in the murk we inhabit so _far_
from perfection amidst our intolerance, and fair weather friends
. . . At worst he's an agent of blackness and spies -- a stooge
for the *man*, a purveyor of lies. A man thus connected to spin
party lines -- a message confusing, cross purpose, and trying.
Perhaps he's a loser, a dreamer, complainer . . . with visions
of grandeur -- believer, campaigner. Perhaps he's bought in to
what's _shallow_ at best. Perhaps he's enslaved to what won't
stand its test. Perhaps he's a whacko, a public buffoon, or
someone who stopped with his meds a bit soon. Whatever he's
saying he's taking a gamble, if securing attention he's made an
example of all that works hard to discredit our interest in
*people from space* -- to _encourage_ disinterest!

He speaks with a sneer, like EVERYTHING's clear, but dodges the
questions that gesture and cheer -- or beg for their answers in
*things* that we've seen that _millions_ attest to, and remain
unredeemed.  He fronts for the ignorant shadows, of course -- he
fans up the murk like a crazy Kal Korff. And what are his
bonafides; what strange credentials are part of a makeup that
makes _him_ essential? He says he's a SEAL, or says that he's
not? What's his agenda? What has he got? A demand to Art Bell
for unlimited air time, to play twenty questions? Far better, my
RHYME!! <g>.

For me? For my money? He's personally insulting -- a little
revolting -- remote, deconstructing. He's a  block, or an
obstacle -- a hurdle we face on the gamut we run to touch Truth
on the face. He _has_ nothing new -- just trots out old argument
still used like a salve, or a fraudulent unguent.  He's
dishonest, deceitful, designing, disingenuous. He's conniving,
contemptible, a cad, and incontemptuous! Better men are
_destroyed_ for transgressions like these! Whither RAM Stephens?
Is he _different_? Oh -- please!

Perhaps Bell's a shill and Hoagland's a hoaxster. Perhaps
Knapp's a fake <g>, and Rense is a jokester. Nothing in
Stephens' promotes _their_ bad credit, and it seems that _he's_
worse than the ones he discredits.  And where are his proofs;
what's he forgetting? What mistakes has he made, and why is he
fretting? His approach is quite manic, a _frenzy_ at rest --
thousands of E-Mails (but he answers mine best). He has all the
answers, and he's here to put _right_ all the hounds of _my_
ignorance -- _my_ cognitive blight!  I resent his intrusion like
his piss on my leg. He tells me it's raining!! To differ, I beg.
The tone is more strident, but it sings the old song, balloons
and old swamp gas -- just strings us along.

We *know* that there's something that watches out there. We
don't guess its purpose while it sits there and stares. And the
*boys* unelected have *info* galore -- you can bet it means
changes -- I'd bet, _evens_ the score. But _they_ are struck
_clueless_, so grasp to their chests what their pay and
position, or their excess suggests.  Stephens makes ridicule,
and mocks all those things that perplex, and confound us; he
taunts, sneers, and pings. He gibes proclamation with airy
aplomb,  but his sarcasm's worse, a disparaging _bomb_. He
chaffs, and he razzes, but he's smelling the fear of a change to
his world view that's bearing down -- near.

And what is his program? What's his agenda? He's trying as hard
as he can to offend ya' <g>. Where's he get off? What is his
plan? What's the connection. Why's he have fans? I'll just bet
they inhabit a rabid right aisle; I'll just bet their soft hands
hide a predator's smile. Yes -- there _are_ secrets, clandestine
and dark that are buried in dungeons, and cellars, or parks.
Along with no Santa Clause there's evil conspiracy to dump on
the masses elitist indecency. We've corrupt institutions! We
_wallow_ in lies that _don't_ come from Hoagland, Art Bell, or
what flies!  It's justice for sale to the moneyed elite. It's
dependence on lawyers, and cops on the beat. It's worship for
doctors, and honor for priests. it's money to scientists who
march to the beat.

It's him and his manner that typifies loss of all that the
cosmos could give us at _cost_. His eyes look away from the
light that would shine if we _looked_ for real answers -- and
questioned our finds. And I find it _strange_, and a little bit
_odd_ that he came on the scene as Firmage gave a nod. Is RAM
the planned balance to confound our credulity? Is it RAM that
makes waves to promote our stupidity? Who's the _big_ liar? Is
it Hoagland, or Bell (?), or can RAM take his chip shots from
the bunkers of hell?

Lehmberg@snowhill.com

This one went on a bit long. Sorry.

Restore John Ford!

--
Explore the Alien View!
Ponder the Wit & Wisdom of Ching Chow!

http://www.fortunecity.com/roswell/arecibo/46/

<Updated 18 January>

John Ford Restoration Fund -- Send your checks and
money orders to _me_, Alfred Lehmberg
(cut out the lawyers, they got their's) at:
304 Melbourne Drive, Enterprise AL, 36330. Strict records kept.

"Only thin, _very light_ envelopes with a return address will be
accepted <g>." ~~~ $225.00 pledged -- $125.00 collected ~~~

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see from
afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, while burning at the
fundamentalist's stake.






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 24

                       Re: R.A.M.S. - A Parting Shot?

From: Dave Ledger <dledger@cableinet.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 16:10:34 +0000
Fwd Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 08:45:56 -0500
Subject: Re: R.A.M.S. - A Parting Shot?


>Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 15:59:09 +0000
>From: Robert A. M. Stephens <sti3818@montana.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: R.A.M.S. - A Parting Shot?
>
>>Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 22:36:07 +0000
>>From: Dave Ledger <dledger@cableinet.co.uk>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>Subject: Re: R.A.M.S. - A Parting Shot?

Dear Errol,R.A.M.S, and listmembers,

In response to my earlier post to the list, Mr Stephens wrote:

>I have answered this in great depth in 9 differnet venues, in
>detail, over and over. Still, I am told I have not.

Mr Stephens, You may have answered these questions elsewhere,
but you certainly did not answer them on this particular list.
Despite what you may assume, I do not follow you around the
internet and therefore had not heard your previous claimed
explanations.

>It is virtually hopeless. Here it is
>again, you need to get the color tapes of these missions from
>JSC-NASA.

I fail to see what difference it makes whether the footage is in
colour or not. The copies that I am commenting on, which I have
watched many many times with great interest, were pretty good
quality. At least good enough to see what is going on without
having to depend on the poor quality internet clips as you
assume.

>I
>know this answer is not what you and Kasher and others want to
>hear and for that I have no response. Please look at all the
>tapes and then see for yourself that EVERY mission is embroiled
>with thousands of UFOS, or, gee, there just might be something
>to what that crazy NASA is saying about the missions and ejecta
>from the spacecraft.

Please do not associate me with any other party who has asked
similar questions. The reasons that these questions have been
raised is simply because the explanations do not seem to fit. My
questions to you are perfectly relevent and justified. I am not
a conspiracy theorist but I do feel that things with the NASA
videos may not be what they seem. I will ask you the 64000
dollar question. If there is nothing but debris and ice etc in
these particular videos, can you please explain to me why NASA
have discontinued the live feed from the shuttle missions? That
in itself is highly suspicious and you cannot understand why
people become suspicious of NASA?  What are they trying to hide
by stopping the live transmissions Mr Stephens?

>And knock off the truculent nonsense. Asked a reasonable
>question without the innuendo of you being deceived before you
>even get an answer.

Perhaps if you were not so sarcastic in your posts previously, I
would try to be a little more polite myself.

>After you have seen the tapes, and reviewed them, you will know
>what everyone else knows, inside the agnecy and out. If you
>still 'know that NASA is lying', great. UFOs all over place in
>space around the shuttle. Sounds great to me.

Hmm , a little more sarcasm here too :0)  Where did I state that
NASA was lying?  I am giving you the opportunity to prove to me
that they are not, or you are not. I really do wish I knew what
others within the agency know, but somehow I think this is very
unlikely.

>What you describe suggest nothing without the full color tape
>and a shuttle operator's manual. The ship is in line 90 degrees
>to the plume blast. When the RCS fires, in the color tape, RCS
>number 17, which is firing, at 2.2 pounds thrust at 1000 feet
>per second, egresses from the motor nozzle with a plume fan of
>140 degrees in all arcs. Its effect blast effects the area
>around it in a 179 degree arc. If anything was laying, floating,
>alongside the orbiter, it too would be effected and moved away
>from its original location. It would effect all ejecta in the
>vicinty in varying degrees.

Pretty technical stuff but it still does not fully answer the
question does it? It does not explain why the object changed
it's track for a second time further out. Perhaps you would care
to answer this without asking me again to view a colour tape of
the incident. The tape which I saw the event on was good enough
quality so I fail to see what difference this would make. If I
watch my TV at home and then turn my colour down on my set, this
does not change what is being seen in the picture does it? It
only removes the colour and this is not the topic of discussion
here. > >In the color tape of the whole event, even more ejecta
appears >into the light bowl and is kicked and shot around and
out away >from the orbiters right side. It is a maelstom of
activity. The >tape of the mission, including what is in
question, is in full >color. It is replete with everything one
coul want to knw and it >looks entirely different than the
blurry, scratchy, B & W images >as seen on the net. > You still
have not answered the original question posed Mr Stephens. Also
you wrongly assume that the copy from which I refer was from the
internet.

>>Thirdly, when you touched upon the Shuttle missions in your
>>post, you did not even acknowledge the fact that there was more
>>than one anomalous episode connected to the STS-48 shuttle
>>mission. About 6 was it?

>No, 2 distinct events and I covered every single facsimilie of
>the mission. I state this. You state that I didn't. It is your
>call to do your own clicking on the net, which isn't too tough,
>and go to Sightings and others sites where my written and oral
>dissertation is archived. But as I told Roger Evans, I think it
>is virtually hopeless. You will not call JSC and get the tapes,
>you will not research your claims further, Kasher wouldn't even
>consider a little closer look at his BS claims after I offered
>the full color tape for review and lecture at the U of O. Its
>fruitless.

You claim that there were 2 anomalous events in connection with
the STS-48 mission. I have 3 seperate clips on the UFO Scotland
website.I have proof of my claims online.  Also You did not
state anything on this list Mr Stephens and this is the means in
which I communicate with you. What was stated elsewhere,
obviously I have not heard before. We do not have the luxury of
free internet time in this country, therefore I do a lot of my
research etc through lists such as this where there are many
learned and educated people. If you do not like answering all
the relevent questions concerned with details you yourself have
claimed knowledge to, perhaps you should not put yourself in the
line of fire. My questions to you are for my research, looking
for further information so please do not suggest that I am not
doing any. I have never said that NASA are lying, I merely
questioned the anomalies in the videos that is all. I only want
the truth and I dont care which it is as long as it is the
truth. You had the chance to convince me but you have failed
thus far I am afraid. My mind is by no means made up on the
video issue and I have not came to any real conclusions, that is
why I asked you to help me with your knowledge on the subject.

>>Also what was the anomalous object recorded on film,leaving
>>Earth at a high velocity on the STS-80 mission? Too many
>>relevent questions left unanswered I think. What I can tell you
>>without being an expert in this field is that this particular
>>incident was definately NOT Ice or Ejecta', so what was it?

>You are correct. It is NOT ice or ejecta, although this material
>is there in the tape at times, but because it is a shroud-LCMR
>cover from the payload bay pallet array for the foil covering
>mounting of the satelitte in the cargo bay before launching that
>you are referencing. In the full color tape of the whole mission
>sequence you can see it all. There are quite a few of items
>that have not, did not clear the cargo bay and the camera has
>registered them.

That is absolute rubbish!  The object I was referring to seemed
to come from a small group of islands on Earth and was nothing
to do with the shuttle at all. I will send you the clip if you
like. A projectile like object eminates from the Earth and goes
upwards at a very high velocity, this is not what you are
describing at all.

>The snide reamark about me having all the answers is flawed and
>wrong. I do not have very many answers on most things, period.
>In regard to some events regarding STS and NASA I have a limited
>number of items to offer. After that, my chest of data is
>finished. I'm not the end line on anything. I offer what I know
>and what I have been exposed to not by intent, over 20 years.
>That is all. When it is done and offered, I am no more than a
>reference. I am not a UFO person.

I made no such snide remark Mr Stephens. I will remind you again
that you were the one who appeared on the scene, here on this
List, and made your claims to have all of this knowledge that we
are obviously interested in. If you do not like to answer the
questions, you should not put yourself in the line of fire. I do
not wish to be unpleasant and I thoroughly appreciate your
reponse to my previous mail also acknowledging that you have
responded to many other posts too. I commend you for that. I am
not trying to be difficult with you either, just trying to do a
little further research on the NASA videos nothing else. I am
trying to get to the bottom of this and do not wish to presume
anything.That would be poor researching would it not?  You seem
to think that I have jumped on other peoples bandwagons as far
as the video footage is concerned but you are wrong. These
questions are my own based on what I have seen in the footage
and I do feel that the questions posed to you are legitimate and
justified ones.

I sincerely thank you for your response Mr Stephens but I must
confess that I had hoped for better answers than the ones that
you have given. I would be happy to talk with you further on
this issue and invite you to e-mail me privately if you wish to
discuss this further. I just want the truth with a good rational
explanation, that is all. Perhaps you will be willing to help
and I am definately open to a good explanation seeing as my mind
is not truely made up one way of the other.

Looking forward to your further response if possible,

Yours sincerely,

               Dave Ledger (UFO Scotland)
--
==================================================================
If you see someone without a smile......give them one of yours :)
******************************************************************
Posted by: Dave Ledger  (mailto:UFOSCOT@cableinet.co.uk)
VISIT "UFO SCOTLAND" AT:
<A HREF="http://wkweb5.cableinet.co.uk/dledger/index.htm">UFO
Scotland.</A>
ICQ pager      http://wwp.mirabilis.com/4851425
******************************************************************
THE TRUTH IS JUST AROUND THE CORNER!..................BUT HOW FAR?
==================================================================
"The sands of time are trickling away from our dear mother Earth
 and yet we continue to fight amongst ourselves and destroy our
natural enviroment,leaving all the mess for our children and their
children's children to inherit when we're gone."





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 24

                               Keeping Secrets

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 12:14:52 EST
Fwd Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 08:51:03 -0500
Subject: Keeping Secrets



On the subject of 'Keeping Secrets', an example of 1970's
thinking may be appropriate.  This story is quite true but is
not meant to be indicative of security, generally speaking. It's
just a really interesting story... and it happened to me.

I was, in 1970, working on a project called NAGS.  This was the
acronym for Naval Advanced Guidance System.  It was one of the
means by which a Polaris Poseiden warhead would guide itself
towards target(s), as these were MIRV or multiple warheads.

The security at the facility was very, very strict. You needed a
top secret clearance just to get into the work area.  And that
work area was guarded 24 hours a day.  Beyond the human
security, you needed a special badge and code access to get
thru the door.

If there was anything about this project that was critical, it
was security.  About three months after I became one of the
Electro-Optics engineers on the project, and after numerous
security briefings by the military, by the project management,
by the company reps, by everybody, an article appeared in
Aviation Week and Space Technology which outlined _exactly_ what
this project was all about, including the top secret portions,
which threatened corporeal punishment and a cruel death to
anyone on the project who leaked information, even by accident.

I wonder if Klass worked there at the time?

So much for keeping a secret!

Jim





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 24

             BUFORA WATCH - Council Member Resigns Over Wall of

From: Mike Wootten<ej77@dial.pipex.com>
Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 20:03:58 GMT
Fwd Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 08:56:46 -0500
Subject: BUFORA WATCH - Council Member Resigns Over Wall of


----------------------------------------------------------------
BUFORA WATCH - Council Member Resigns Over Wall of Silence
----------------------------------------------------------------

BUFORA Watchers who have been keeping up with the way BUFORA
Council's corrupt, corporate and crap style of management may be
interested in the following:

For over a year now member John Heptonstall has been trying to
get basic information out of BUFORA Council about how the
finances have been structured and where all the money has gone
(see previous BUFORA Watch issues for these questions). To date
he has been repeatedly fobbed off and not one of these
questions, questions which every BUFORA member is entitled to
know the answer to, has been answered.

BUFORA Watch can now reveal that Paul Doran, formerly a key
Council member and stauch defender of BUFORAs strange ways
resigned over this very issue. In an email to Andy Roberts he
wrote:

>ANDY,
>JUST for your info I didnt renew my membership because I
>wasnt happy with the way the council was handling the
>Heptonstall enquiry I thought they should have put a stop to
>all this nonsense along time ago. Instead of letting it drag
>on.

Read it twice.

Then read it again.

Now let us be presumtious and interpret it for you. What Paul is
saying is that although he is a supporter of the two or three
people who _actually_ run BUFORA, even _he_ was so disgusted
about how they have dealt with John Heptonstall (and by
extension _all_ members), that he resigned.

Paul, we salute you sir!

As Bart Simpson himself would say, 'Aye, Caramba'.

We've said it before and we'll say it again - in subscribing to
BUFORA you are casting your money into a pit. You have _no_ say
in how it will be spent.

You _cannot_ find out how it _has_ been spent. _No-one_ will
answer your questions if you ask them. In essence you are
throwing 20 pound plus away on what is effectively a tatty,
duplicated newsletter filled with yesterday's ufological news.

Your BUFORA dollar is wasted money.

And in the meantime, here's a joke for you:

Q: What do you do if you see a BUFORA member limping?



A: Laugh and re-load.


---------------------------------------------------------------------
ATB
Mike





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 24

                  'Killer Asteroids And Risks That Matter'

From: Bob Soetebier <bikebob <bikebob@mo.net>
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 20:04:00 -0600 (CST)
Fwd Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 09:00:31 -0500
Subject: 'Killer Asteroids And Risks That Matter'


(This one kind of puts things in perspective. --Bob S.)


Linkname: "Killer Asteroids" and Risks That Matter

URL: http://home.stlnet.com/~jpion/risk.html








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 24

                           Re: A Tale from Africa

From: Lesley Cluff <manitou@fox.nstn.ca>
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 01:12:09 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 09:07:47 -0500
Subject: Re: A Tale from Africa


>From: Roy Hale <roy.hale@virgin.net>
>To: <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: A Tale from Africa
>Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 03:55:09 -0000

>He told me about a folklore, which concerned little figures
>appearing in the homes of people and subsequently abducting
>them, apparently this is well known in Ghana folklore and there
>are drawings of these little fellows, from which he went on to
>inform me, "They look pretty much like the Grey Alien". These
>type of occurrences apparently have been carrying on for
>centuries,

A chap I met years ago on a local ufo newsgroup, once told me
about a story his mom told him about the little people who come
and take people and bring them back.  His parents are Italian,
and she said this knowledge is common back home!

We all know about the little folk of the British Isles, and the
Italian little people, and now even Africa produces such a
story! Sure would be nice if someone had more detail for us to
share!!!

Lesley


--
Lesley Cluff,
Ontario, Canada
manitou@fox.nstn.ca






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 24

                             'Eprime' In Action

From: John W. Ratcliff <jratcliff@worldnet.att.net>
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 00:33:44 -0600
Fwd Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 09:17:42 -0500
Subject: 'Eprime' In Action


In some message I posted on UFO UpDates a while back, I made
disparaging remarks which included Jeff Rense of
<www.sightings.com> fame.  A few members of the peanut gallery,
lurkers all, e-mailed me grand huzzah's for calling Hoagland to
task, but tsked, tsked, me for including Rense with that hoary
horde of paranormal pontificators.  While Jeff Rense probably is
fairly rational in real life, the fact remains that his web site
continues to sponsor articles about speech reversals, and other
irrational nonsense, thus thrusting him into the category of
'part of the problem' rather than 'part of the solution.'

Still, always wanting to pick up some new folklore, I now find
myself cruising his website with the frequency I once reserved
for realdoll.com. Scary thought.  Our old friend Michael
Hesemann has an article up there today defending Billy Meir
against his 'nasty witch' of an ex-wife.  Good for him, huzzah
Mr. Hesemann, huzzah!

I am unabashedly a big fan of Robert Anton Wilson, though I wish
he would write more.  I've gotten burned at least three times
purchasing books in the last couple of years that I thought were
new, which ended up containing nothing but material he had
written years before.  Buyer beware they say. The danger of
purchasing over the internet bites us all at least once or
twice.

In one of RAW's fine books he proposed a relativistic mode of
speech that I seem to recall he dubbed 'e-prime'.  Eprime was a
way to parse language that amounted to little more than
qualifying every statement one made relative to their own
personal belief system.  I believe this was designed to forment
more productive communications between members of we ape men and
women. Reading Michael's article, with extensive pull quotes
from Billy, made me wonder.  I wondered what Billy's claims
would sound like converted to e-prime.  I think it might sound
something like this:

Billy Meir: "My contacts with extraterrestrial human entities
began in the 1940s when I was still a very young boy. "

Eprime Meir: "In the 1940's I had an experience that, to me,
seemed to be contact with some people who wanted me to believe
they were extraterrestrial.  I was only a young boy at the
time."

Billy Meir: "When Sfath visited me, his point of origin was the
Pleiades/Plejares; Asket, on the other hand, came from the DAL
Universe, a parallel universe to ours-a twin universe."

Eprime Meir: "When I had the vision which I interpreted to be an
extraterrestrial being named Sfath, my perception of this
dialogue was the he claimed to be from the Pleiades/Plejares;
and the being I visualized as Asket, gave me the impression that
he believed himself to come from some sort of parallel universe,
not unlike the fictional mythologies put forth by many of our
writers of fantasy literature, such as 'Alice In Wonderland.'
Question posed to Meir: "Where do the extraterrestrial
intelligences come from and why do they visit us? "  (Author's
note, the question itself is hardly phrased in eprime, which
says quite a bit about Mr. Heseman when you think about it.)

Billy Meir: "The extraterrestrial with whom I maintain contact
come from the Pleiades/Plejares constellation. However, this
constellation, as I have mentioned, is not identical to the
Pleiades we observe from Earth in our own
space-and-time-configuration at a distance of 420 light years.
They are only approximately 62 million years old and as hot,
blue suns, the Pleiades are absolutely incapable of supporting
any form of life, either purely spiritual or material forms.
The Pleiadians/Plejarans are visiting us on Earth because they
are directly associated with a particular terrestrial group who
originally came to Earth from the Lyra-Vega systems-which also
exists in another space-and-time-configuration shift from the
Lyra-Vega constellations we know."

Semi-Lucid Sometimes Rational Eprime Billy Meir: "These visions
which I had failed to communicate any factual or verifiable data
of any kind, but instead used vague and meaningless terminology
which cannot be expressed in any concrete terms."


There's really no point in going further  The fundamental flaws
in logic are rather obvious.  For example, while it is quite
possible that human beings have the experience that they are
contacted by angels, aliens, devils, or elves, this does not
mean that what these critters have to say carries any more
weight than gossip we might hear third hand.   I've never seen a
UFO, never seen a ghost, had a vision, or had any kind of
paranormal experience. I do have dreams, which seem pretty real
when I'm having them, so that is the only personal experience I
have to draw as an analogy.  Perhaps if I were Moses, Saul,
Steven Greer, Billy Meir, Joseph Smith, or even Joseph Firmage,
I might have a totally different perspective.  If Christ walked
into my bedroom, or Jehovah rattled my cage, I might have a
completely different attitude.

I just now recall, I misspoke in my earlier statement.  I have
had a paranormal experience.  We had quite the Virgin Mary
apparition scare here in the St. Louis region some years back.
Crowds in the tens of thousands. As the objective observer I
went to see if I could catch a bit of the old Fatima sensation
in a personal bottle.  I did have the experience of witnessing
an anomalous event.  In an objective and detached fashion I
believed myself to have the experience of seeing brilliant
flashes of light around the altar during the height of the
ritualistic chanting experience. My polling data of other
attendees indicated that everyone I spoke to had experienced the
same phenomenon.  While pretty much all concluded this
phenomenon to indicate proof positive of some ghostly entity
dubbed 'virgin mary', I was hardly prepared to take such a
massive mental leap and jump to that conclusion.  Were I to
conjecture _any_ sort of paranormal theory, I would suggest that
if you put tens of thousands of people together chanting and in
focused meditation, that they themselves were the most likely
culprits.

While it is pretty clear to me that people have paranormal
experiences, and this remains darn tooting interesting, this
says very little as to what the origin or genesis of those
experiences are.  To date about all we could say, having
examined UFO evidence for decades, is that, yeppers, this
phenomenon is part of human experience.  What they are, their
genesis, purpose, motivation, nature, or any other aspect
regarding it is complete conjecture based on a hopelessly
limited dataset.

But, _why_, _why_, if someone has this kind of an experience do
they immediately endow this experience with such awe, reverence,
and unbridled belief?  Quit their jobs, start up web sites,
destroy their lives all following the unproven claims perceived
through a visionary experience? Perhaps it's time to be less
skeptical of the contactee and a bit more skeptical of the
contactor?

Just a thought...

John W. Ratcliff







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 24

                           Re: A Tale from Africa

From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net>
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 02:23:43 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 09:24:03 -0500
Subject: Re: A Tale from Africa

>From: Roy Hale <roy.hale@virgin.net>
>To: <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: A Tale from Africa
>Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 03:55:09 -0000

>Hi All,

>I received a sighting tonight from a member of the public, and
>whilst chatting over the finer details of the UFO sighting, the
>witness happened to mention that he was originally from Ghana
>(West Africa).

>He told me about a folklore, which concerned little figures
>appearing in the homes of people and subsequently abducting
>them, apparently this is well known in Ghana folklore and there
>are drawings of these little fellows, from which he went on to
>inform me, "They look pretty much like the Grey Alien". These
>type of occurrences apparently have been carrying on for
>centuries, so I am wondering if there maybe anyone on the list
>who might have come across such figures, relating to this story,
>or if someone might have a web-site for me to check out for
>further inquires?


Hello Roy,

The Irish country folks used to put their male children to bed
in girls dressing gowns (in order to disguise their sex) because
(according to legend) "the wee folk" would come in the night and
steal away with the child. There are many such "legends/ tales"
that go back many centuries. I know it's true because I've been
seeing those same little buggers ever since childhood.

I hope and pray that sooner or later people begin to realize
that we are not (all) crazy or delusional or suffering from some
other mental/psychological aberration. Whatever these
beings/things are they did not "arrive" in 1947. They have been
around a _lot_ longer than 50 years. All indications are that
they are (and have been) living in some kind of weird symbiotic
relationship, or maybe even stewardship, to mankind for a lot
longer than we may suspect. (For the benefit of those who enjoy
nit picking anything I say to death, this is just my opinion and
nothing more. I don't intend the remarks as fodder for debate.)

If you want information on UFO related abductions you can go to
our website which is listed at the end of this post. There are a
few links there to other websites that you may want to check
out. If you have any questions about the material that is posted
there you are welcome to write us at the e-mail address
provided.

http://www.if-aic.com/

Peace,

John Velez, Webmaster IF-AIC



________________________________________________
                                jvif@spacelab.net
INTRUDERS FOUNDATION/ABDUCTION INFORMATION CENTER
                            http://www.if-aic.com
"Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind."
________________________________________________







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 24

                Re: Santilli Knew 'Tent Footage' Was a Fraud?

From: Steven W. Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 07:25:51 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 09:39:42 -0500
Subject: Re: Santilli Knew 'Tent Footage' Was a Fraud?


>Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 22:33:41 -0600 (CST)
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Dennis Stacy<dstacy@texas.net>
>Subject: Re: Santilli Knew 'Tent Footage' Was a Fraud?

>>Hi James,

>>As Bob Shell pointed out in an earlier post, 16mm B&W motion
>>picture film from 1947 would have to be processed totally
>>different since it would require different chemicals at a lower
>>temperature. Bob correctly pointed out that the emulsion of the
>>old film would come right off using contemporary processing.

>>If the info about Santilli processing the film is true, then it
>>should be fairly easy to find the lab that did the work.

><snip>

>Wasn't the film already processed, ie, developed, when Santilli
>acquired it? Has it ever been claimed that Santilli received
>unprocessed/undeveloped film?

>Just curious about my bandwidth,


Dennis-

Your bandwidth is fine.

Santilli indicated that the "cameraman" had to process a number
of reels of film that required special processing, which I
assume means a varying degree of 'push' processing for those
rolls that needed it.  These rolls he allegedly had to be
processed by hand, which is why they were still in his
possession and not sent to Washington with the rest.

I believe that Santilli also said the "film" was very fragile
and had to be transfered to video a frame at a time, which may
be the "processing" that he has referred to in some statements.

Steve






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 24

                       The State of Ufology Yesterday

From: Gary Alevy <galevy@pipeline.com>
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 00:12:02 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 09:33:16 -0500
Subject: The State of Ufology Yesterday


Below are the 14 questions Donald Keyhoe wanted answered by
Edward Ruppelt before a Senate investigation Committee.  The
answers Keyhoe provided are from the record of Ruppelt's written
and public statements.

Is it any wonder Ruppelt never got to testify?

All of this was on the record over 40 years ago.  It certainly
makes one wonder what goal there is in the continued piling up
of sighting reports by individuals and UFO organizations.

Gary Alevy

Below quoted from Donald Keyhoe's "Flying Saucers Top Secret",
1960.

"Ruppelt was already on record, and any variation from his
published statements of fact-because of Air Force pressure -
would certainly backfire.

To estimate the impact of Ruppelt's appearance at a hearing, I
had listed fourteen questions a Congressional committee was
certain to ask him, with the exact answers he had already
stated:

Q. Were you ever told to hide the truth from the public?

A. Yes. I was continually being told to "tell them about the
sighting reports we've solved-don't mention the unknowns." (Page
89, Captain Ruppelt's published 'Report on Unidentified Flying
Objects.")

Q. Do you mean the Air Force policy was to explain away the
sightings, regardless of the facts?

A. After the Air Force order of February 11, 1949, which renamed
the project as "Grudge," everything was evaluated on the premise
that UFOs couldn't exist. No matter what you see or hear, don't
believe it (page 87) .

Q. Does that policy exist now?

A. There have been definite indications that there is a movement
afoot to get Project Blue Book to swing back to the old Project
Grudge philosophy of analyzing UFO reports -to write them all
off, regardless (p. 315), Some good reports have come in and the
Air Force is sitting on them (p. 312).

Q. Have any experienced Air Force investigators opposed this policy?

A. Yes. Some were "purged" because they had refused to change
their original opinions about UFOs (p. 87),

Q. Do you personally consider any UFO reports as serious evidence?

A. Yes. Many reports are made by experienced pilots and radar
operators, scientists, and other people who know what they're
looking at. These reports were thoroughly investigated and
they're still unknowns (p. 3 14).

In a full answer to this question, Ruppelt could cite scores of
unsolved reports he had listed, from official records: detailed
visual, radar and photographic evidence from Service and airline
pilots, White Sands missile trackers, airport-tower operators,
Weather Bureau observers, balloon experts and other technically
trained persons. The photographic evidence would include
gun-camera and other motion-picture films showing UFOs moving at
speeds far beyond any our planes had achieved.
 Q. Did the Air Force ever conclude that the UFOs are real?

A. Yes, in a confidential letter ATIC told the commanding
general of the then Army Air Forces that the "reported phenomena
were real." This letter was sent by ATIC on Sept. 23, 1947. The
only problem that confronted the people at ATIC was, "Were the
UFOs of Russian or interplanetary origin?" (pages 31-32) .

Q. Do you know of any high Air Force officers or Project
scientists who accepted the second explanation?

A. One group in Intelligence circles thought the UFOs were
interplanetary spaceships. They ranged down from generals and
top-grade scientists (p. 84). And "maybe they're
interplanetary"-with the "maybe" bordering on "they are" - was
the personal opinion of several very high-ranking officers in
the Pentagon, so high that their personal opinion was almost
policy (pages 177-8) .

Q. Didn't any of these people attempt to tell the public their
conclusions?

A. There were two factions. One believed the spaceship answer
but felt we should clamp down on information until we had all
the answers. Another group favored giving more facts to the
public, including the best cases, the unsolved movies of UFOs,
and the Air Force conclusions. A press showing of the
"Tremonton"  UFO movie-which the Navy analysts said showed
unknown objects under intelligent control -  was planned early
in '53 (pages 202-3; 286-90; 294; 297).

Q. What happened to this plan?

A. A new publicity policy went into effect -- don't say anything
(p. 315).

Q. Are we to understand that the Air Force has officially -that
is, publicly-explained away UFO sightings which they actually
were seriously investigating?

A. In 1952, the press was led to believe the famous Washington
Airport radar-visual sightings were only weather Phenomena.
Actually, they're still carried as unknowns. The press
conference did take the pressure off Project Blue Book -but
behind the scenes it was only the signal for an all-out drive to
find out more about the UFOs (pages 211-26; 229).

Q. The Air Force insists that its Special Blue Book Re. port 14
is proof that UFOs don't exist. What do you think of this?

A. That report was a shock to me. I was the one that had the IBM
system tried out. It didn't prove a thing, and I had written it
off as worthless before I left the Project. . . . Also, this
report was drawn up in 1953, yet the Air Force released it as
the latest hot dope in October, 1955. (Statement by Captain
Ruppelt to Mr. Max Miller, for Saucers magazine; copy at NICAP,
confirmed by Ruppelt.)

Q. If the "flying saucers" are real, do you personally believe
they could be interplanetary?

A. If they are real there is no other alternative, staggering as
the implications may be. (Statement in True magazine, April,
1954.)

Q. Has there ever been any official conclusion as to what the
UFOs are?

A. In 1948 ATIC sent the Air Force Commanding General an
Estimate of the Situation. It was a black-cover document,
stamped TOP SECRET (p. 62) .

Q. What was the ATIC conclusion?

A. That the UFOs were interplanetary (p. 62). 2  [2 This was
based on the ATIC analysis of unexplainable reports from
scientists, pilots and other trained observers]

Besides these answers, other significant Ruppelt statements were
on record in his letters to me. If he were called by a
Congressional committee, other Air Force officers who knew of
the cover-up were almost sure to be summoned. As long as this
threat to the secrecy existed, attempts to discredit or silence
Ruppelt would continue. So far, they hadn't worked."







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 24

                Re: Santilli Knew 'Tent Footage' Was a Fraud?

From: From: Greg St. Pierre <StrmNut@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 08:36:00 +0000
Fwd Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 09:45:22 -0500
Subject: Re: Santilli Knew 'Tent Footage' Was a Fraud?


>From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net>
>Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 03:47:32 -0800
>Fwd Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 02:39:50 -0500
>Subject: Re: Santilli Knew 'Tent Footage' Was a Fraud?

>>Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 09:10:13 +0000
>>Subject: Re: Santilli Knew 'Tent Footage' Was a Fraud?
>>From: Bob Shell <bob@bobshell.com>

>>>From: James Easton <pulsar@compuserve.com>
>>>Subject: Santilli Knew 'Tent Footage' Was a Fraud?
>>>To: UFO UpDates <updates@globalserve.net>

Previously, James Easton wrote:

>>>"Santilli verified that the photographer does indeed claim that
>>>this was an emergency procedure carried out in a barn at the
>>>crash site after discovering that one of the two aliens was in
>>>fact still alive".

Bob Shell replied:

>>Good catch James! I missed that. Ray has always said to me that
>>the footage was shot in a tent, and it was always called the
>>Tent Footage.

>>I can personally confirm that there are no barns close to the
>>supposed crash site, either Michael Hesemann's site or mine.
>>Barns, in fact, are not at all common in New Mexico.

Says who?

Wasn't the Roswell crash site, in fact, on a RANCH?

BTW, didn't you post earlier that you could not actually find
the location the cameraman spoke of? I refer to the following
post you wrote some months ago:

>Unfortunately, a lot has changed out there since 1947. The
>thriving town of Magdalena is now little more than a ghost town,
>and the main highway has been rerouted not far from Socorro,
>making it very hard to match up locations. In spite of a number
>of attempts I never did find the dirt road the cameraman said
>leads to the crash site. One of his landmarks was a wooden
>bridge over a canyon, and I satisfied myself by talking to a lot
>of locals and some forest rangers that this bridge is gone, and
>no one seems to recall it. Also, there was a "rock gate" at the
>beginning of the road, and again it seems to be long gone. The
>road may still be there, but there are dozens of little dirt
>tracks running off into the desert and it would take weeks and
>some good four wheelers to check them all.

Sorry, Bob. But if you couldn't find the location that the
cameraman was talking about, then how would you really know if
there are any barns close to it or not?

Larry adds:

>Now that you mention it, I've crossed New Mexico on a number of
>routes, and I have _never_ seen a barn there. I'm sure there are
>some barns, but they would stick out like a sore thumb; most
>especially in the virtually deserted nearly Mars like high
>desert between Corona and Roswell, NM.

Hi Larry,

Actually, they do. A company I used to work for had me doing
quite a bit of aeriel photography in the southwest. On just a
few of the trips I made over New Mexico, the landscape was
dotted with barns and barn-like structures. Because ranches are
usually large, the barns are going to be closer to the main
residence and, therefore, not near the main roads. Unless you
were traveling by air or crossing private property, you probably
would not see them. But, make no mistake, they are there. Beyond
that, my cousin raises race horses and knows hundreds of people
in New Mexico that have barns. In fact, there's probably as many
barns per hundred square miles of New Mexico as there are in any
other ranch country.

>If Santilli really believed in his own films, he would have
them >independently authenticated by whatever means necessary to
>convince himself and the world at large.

I couldn't agree more. What's worse, so much time has slipped by
that there is now a growing myth that since the AA footage
hasn't been "cracked" yet by experts it, therefore, might be the
real deal.

Take care,

Roger Evans







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 24

                                  Who Knew?

From: Greg St. Pierre <StrmNut@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 09:00:09 EST
Fwd Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 09:50:49 -0500
Subject: Who Knew?


Hi list,

I thought I'd share a little known fact with you movie buffs out
there. Before Steven Spielberg began work on E.T., he and a
small team of artists were working on a project called "Night
Skies", a movie about decidedly unfriendly aliens visiting
earth. Effects people had even produced working alien creatures,
with realistic aspects such as subdermal muscle movements, skin
texture and facial features.

Unfortunately, for reasons unknown, the project was suddenly
abandoned for the cuter E.T., and the rest is history.

The only place I've ever seen reference to this information was
in a movie industry magazine called Cineffex. Perhaps some
person with connections in the movie business (I  won't mention
you, Roger) could do a little digging and come up with some more
info.

Greg







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 24

                  Upgrade (1\20\99) to Oberg/Cooper Website

From: Jerry Cohen <rjcohen@li.net>
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 09:40:09 -0400
Fwd Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 09:53:55 -0500
Subject: Upgrade (1\20\99) to Oberg/Cooper Website

Hello again to all List members,

Just wanted to announce a couple of additions to the
Oberg/Cooper website which include the following:

* Portions of conversations between Jan Aldrich and myself in
which I discover that the 1957 Kirtland, Sebago & Stokes cases
happened in closer time proximity to each other than I had
previously thought. (i.e. only hours apart instead of a day
apart.) Also listed are other UFO reports from that same time
period forwarded to me by Jan.

http://www.li.net/~rjcohen/Jantridate.html

Also:

* Portions of letters from Brad Sparks and Jan which state their
specific clarifications to, and disagreements with, the DSP
satellite claims of Lee Graham and Ron Regehr, of Aero-Jet in
California, in regards to the 1976 Iranian AF UFO incident.
(DSP: Defense Support Platform)

        Brad was an original "cofounder of CAUS and prime
        consultant on the FOIA suits against the CIA and NSA,
        and the first person to study the released CIA docs
        in Dec 1978")

http://www.li.net/~rjcohen/dsp_claims.html

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Both of the above are located on the following page:

http://www.li.net/~rjcohen/authorsc.html

The former under :

          "Kirtland AFB Case
             Nov 4, 1957"
"Jan Aldrich (Proj. 1947) Informs me..."


The latter under:

   "The Iranian AF Jet Encounter"
"Unfortunately, DSP Confirmation is
 Not Supported by Other Researchers"

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Up & coming PROJECT: Working on some clarifications & corrections
that Brad sent me regarding statements I've made regarding the
FOIA documentation from CAUS. These will be posted as soon as
they are finished.


Respectfully,
Jerry Cohen

 Author: Oberg/Cooper rebuttals
Website: http://www.li.net/~rjcohen/
UFOmind: http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/people/c/cohen/






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 24

                         Montana UFO Caught on Video

From: Ian Darlington <cuforg@interweb.freeserve.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 15:01:23 -0000
Fwd Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 10:38:04 -0500
Subject: Montana UFO Caught on Video


Dear All,

I am appealing for anyone with any information regarding
sightings and encounters in Montana, USA.

We have recently received video footage of an object coming out
of the forest bordering George Town Lake, Montana on July 10th
1998.

If anyone has had any sightings, etc, around this time please
contact us at the addresses below.

We hope to post stills and video clips of the object on our Web
site in the near future.

Many thanks,

Ian Darlington. Editor/Webmaster 'Skywatchers'.

Cornwall UFO Research Group
http://www.interweb-design.co.uk/cuforg
mailto:cuforg@interweb-design.co.uk
ICQ 12387110







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 24

                Re: Santilli Knew 'Tent Footage' Was a Fraud?

From: Bob Shell <bob@bobshell.com>
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 10:22:42 +0000
Fwd Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 10:46:21 -0500
Subject: Re: Santilli Knew 'Tent Footage' Was a Fraud?


>Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 03:47:32 -0800
>From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Santilli Knew 'Tent Footage' Was a Fraud?

>Dear Bob and James:
>Now that you mention it, I've crossed New Mexico on a number of
>routes, and I have _never_ seen a barn there. I'm sure there are
>some barns, but they would stick out like a sore thumb; most
>especially in the virtually deserted nearly Mars like high
>desert between Corona and Roswell, NM.

>If Santilli really believed in his own films, he would have them
>independently authenticated by whatever means necessary to
>convince himself and the world at large.

>Compelling evidence of alien activities may well exist
>somewhere, but I'm not going to waste any more time on the likes
>of Santilli.


I was being polite when I said barns were rare.  I've never seen
one in New Mexico either.  A few small sheds used for storage
and such, but never a real barn.


>PS: By coincidence, the two times I stopped in Roswell were both
>Sunday evenings .. separated by an interval of almost exactly
>twenty years! Each time I asked where I could get a beer, and
>some kid working at a burger joint looked as puzzled as if I had
>asked for directions to the Eiffel Tower.

They don't sell beer in burger joints here in Virginia, either.
You gotta go to a bar.

Bob





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 25

               Firmage: Statement Regarding Stephens-Hoagland

From: Joe Firmage <jfirmage@uswebcks.com>
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 22:46:32 -0800
Fwd Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 09:48:53 -0500
Subject: Firmage: Statement Regarding Stephens-Hoagland


Hello everyone,

We have been presented in the past few weeks with a spectacle
remarkable even on the scale of the ridiculousness common to
UFOlogy. Robert Stephens emerged some months ago and began to
share some provocative information concerning the subject of
UFOs. He was about to be engaged in a debate on Art Bell's radio
program covering 200 questions concerning claims made by Richard
Hoagland, when his participation was cut from the air. In the
midst of the firestorm of debate that followed, he bowed out in
a "confession" that labelled himself a "Fraud". Many have said,
with some justification, that Stephens' final radio comments
were somewhat disjointed, though others have reported that he
was particularly cogent in his other appearances. In any case,
he has taken his agenda to the written word, and is publishing
the "200 questions" he's been talking about.

What is Stephens' agenda? According to him, it is to expose
Richard Hoagland as a fraud. Now, I have committed myself not to
descend into personal or institutional attacks so common in this
domain, as I have far more interesting and productive things to
do with my time. But this case is different than the rest. I
have volunteered to comment on Stephens' assertion, so let me
make six brief points:

1 - If you read my book, you will find no mention of
"hyperdimensional physics", "tetrahedral geometry", "19.5",
"Cydonia", "Face on Mars", or basically any of Hoagland's
signature claims, and I have studied his claims insofar as that
is possible from two meetings and numerous reviews of his web
site. The reason you won't find any of his claims in my book is
because I do not believe Hoagland's evidence supports his
assertions. I am and will remain open-minded to all good
evidence on any and all subjects, but I have not seen good
evidence from Mr. Hoagland up to this point. Generally speaking,
that portion of his data that I have seen would not hold up in a
pre-trial hearing, let alone in front of a jury.

2 - When I quietly entered this domain a year ago, I began
providing private grants to a number of researchers over time,
including Hoagland, to see if there was any "there" there. In
the case of Hoagland, I have seen nothing of productive value in
return.

3 - I can personally witness to the whole "December 7th" craft
landing claim, as Richard communicated similar information to
me. I listened but chose to ignore it, again for lack of a shred
of good supporting evidence.

4 - Do I find evidence that Hoagland conducts fraudulent
"science"? My experience with Richard Hoagland suggests Stephens
is correct. I have no personal agenda against Richard Hoagland.
I am simply stating the truth as I see it.

5 - I do not know Robert Stephens except through a brief dialog
concerning my views on Mr. Hoagland. In my dialog with him he
has been a careful and clear-headed thinker. I cannot vouch for
all of his claims one way or the other, but I can and will
support them where I personally am in a position to discriminate
fact from fiction. Stephens' point regarding the NRO is likely
accurate. I have separate confirmation that our global tracking
systems do observe many "unknowns" each month. I agree with his
view that the secret to super-luminal propulsion is to be found
in systems that will influence time through electromagnetic
means. Stephens' questions of Hoagland are extremely serious and
should be answered by Hoagland. If they are even mostly true, we
will have a crystal-clear picture of why the "guvmint" could
never work with the field of UFOlogy in its present state. If
Robert's claims are not true, then Hoagland should be able to
put this to rest and acquit himself rather efficiently and
emerge all the stronger for it.

6 - I cannot speak in any informed way on the alleged "troika"
between Hoagland, Bell, and CAUS. From my perspective, I have
seen no good evidence that Art Bell is anything but a good
entertainer with a broad and effective reach, with an open forum
for all kinds of ideas, and perhaps too little discretion on
what he chooses to broadcast. In the case of Peter Gersten,
though his over-aggressive defense of Hoagland in various venues
is mystifying, I have seen his hard work in a thankless task,
with a good heart, surrounded as we all are by a swamp of
fiction. His work with Corso was significant. A signed affidavit
was no small victory.

Whether you agree with Stephens' tactics or not, his points are
well grounded, and this is a critical issue and must be
addressed for the health of our movement. I thank him for his
diligence and courage to confront our weaknesses. Those of us
who seriously study the UFO issue are convinced that it is the
most important single question facing humanity at this moment in
time. It is far too important to have the entire UFO community
subjected to derision from Hoagland's unchallenged and
unsupportable claims.

If this domain cannot police itself, then it doesn't deserve to
be trusted with astoundingly far-reaching and fundamental data.
Let us commit ourselves to truth, plain and simple.

J O S E P H    F I R M A G E
Founder & Chairman
______________________________________

International Space Sciences Organization






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 25

                   RAMS - The '200 Questions' For Hoagland

From: Robert A.M. Stephens <sti3818@montana.com>
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 00:29:47 +0000
Fwd Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 09:49:17 -0500
Subject: RAMS - The '200 Questions' For Hoagland


Debate Questions for Richard C. Hoagland
from Robert A.M. Stephens,
and aborted by Art Bell on the night of 12-30-1998.


Prepared from sources that have interfaced and had experiences
with Richard C. Hoagland. In addition, personal questions
gleaned from 22,400 emails--phone calls over a period since
10-20-1998 to 1-20-1999 to Stillwater Mills, my company.

Prepared also from the Enterprise Mission web site from
12-1-1998.

Questions 144 through 199 have been omitted since they were
pertinent and exclusive too NEXRAD weather data as featured on
the Enterprise Mission Web site, and answered by
representatives from the National Weather Service. For a full
report, you may consult Borderlands Research Foundation, at
http//:www.borderlands.com for answers to the false claims made
on the Enterprise Mission Web site.

(note: all references to events not related to the Enterprise
Mission can be, and in cases, have been already, verified by
the individuals-agencies involved)



1.  Why did you tell a Dr. Richard Sauder that Washington D.C.
was going to drop nuclear weapons on itself?

RICHARD HOAGLAND LIED. DR. RICHARD SAUDER VERIFIED HE WAS
LYING.

2.  Why do you allude that you get your references from an
inside Pentagon source, which would mean, pertinent to the
above verified question, that you are taking information from a
lying traitor?

3.  If you knew this information from this source, why did you
not tell and warn others besides Dr. Richard Sauder?

4.  If you did not tell or warn others about this impending
nuclear strike, and said strike had occurred, this would have
lent you to being accessory to wholesale murder on a gargantuan
scale. How do you reconcile this gross felonious incrimination
of yourself?

5.  You wrote the book regarding structures on Mars in the LA
county jail. Can you explain this?

6.  Why were you in jail?

7.  Are you still referring to the Pentagon insider who is a
traitor to the United States of America?

8.  You claimed the United States, during the summer of 1997,
that in the city of Phoenix, Arizona, was going to be
thermonuclearized, to get the gold that somehow lies
underneath. Can you explain this?

9.  What source of information did, or do you have, to make
such a claim?

10.  Is your source an inside Pentagon source?

11.  If you had this information and only warned the few people
who got your Enterprise Mission handout in various malls and
other outlets where you were passing this information out,  did
you try and warn authorities, your fellow Americans, that this
imminent event of horrific proportions was about to come visit
them?

12.  If you did not, and the nukes fell on Phoenix, this would
make you an accessory to murder on a gargantuan scale. How do
you reconcile this gross felonious incrimination of yourself?

13.  Your warnings to Dr. Joe Gill, for which I stand corrected
in detail, consisted of warning him to leave the state of
Hawaii since an asteroid was going to go down inside the
volcano there and blow up the island. How did you get this
information of warning?

14.  If you had this information of early warning, did you tell
others so they would not also die?

15.  If you did not, why didn't you warn others besides Dr.
Gill?

16.  If you did not warn others of this impending asteroid
going down the throat of the volcano and killing everyone in
Hawaii this would have made you accessory to murder on a
gargantuan scale. How do you then reconcile this gross
felonious incrimination of yourself?

17.  For the destruction of Washington D.C., the destruction of
the state of Hawaii, and for the destruction of the city of
Phoenix, what special equipment and early warning devices do
you have that gives you this strategic edge to apocalyptic
events?

18.  Why did you loose your accreditation to all NASA centers
in the world for yourself and the Enterprise Mission? NASA
reports, and this information was on your web site on
12-1-1998, that is was because you lied to them?

19.  Why did you misrepresent yourself to NASA after they gave
you access to the KSC site in good faith?

20.  Why did you attempt to destroy the life of Dr. Bruce
Cornet after Dr. Cornet gave you exhaustive good service in
research and other endeavors?

21.  For what motivation would you do something like this to
this man and his family?

22.  Why is there a plethora of unsolicited mails and phone
calls to my place of residence, origin to over two dozen
professional people in the UFO community, who fairly wish to
litigate you and from a personal level, want to do extreme harm
to your person for what you have allegedly done to them in
every way imaginable, financially, economically, theft of
information, defamation, theft of moneys, loitering,
embezzlement, and verbal assault on their professional
character?

23.  After talking to Walter Cronkite (Hudson Institute, alumni
reporter brief), why does he not recollect you whatsoever nor
does he remember you whatsoever at KSC or at any other NASA
function?

24.  The Washington Post of March 22, 1996, called you a, "a
flake, fake, liar, a nutcase, a fruitcake, etc". Please explain
why they would say this to the general public?

25.  Exhaustive research shows there is no Angstrom Medal.
Explain this?

26.  A Mr. Joe Firmage in part, funded a grant to you to
disclaim or prove that your claims were true or false. You
disappeared and to my knowledge, this research endeavor has
yielded nothing for the money you were so entrusted to deploy.
Explain this?

27.  Goddard Space Flight Center wants your hide. They inform
me and others, particularly an LA Times reporter who wishes to
remain anonymous, that he was there when you were there also At
Goddard. You photographed copied photos from the moon flights
and other space missions, while the pictures were laying there
on copy tables under glass. Thus, the natural reflection is now
what you are claiming is structures and such on the moon and
elsewhere.  Your photos and claims are fakes and frauds. Why
have you done this?

28.  The very photos on your Enterprise Mission site, in
general, when checked with the photo archive at NASA-JSC, shows
that they are crystal clear and have not the reflections as the
Goddard photos have that you have used. Goddard says the day in
question they were in a hurry and the photos had reflections.
They regret this. You have exploited a falsehood. Why have you
done this to the public at large?

29.  Why do you not wish to be on any other radio show to
debate these very questions organic to your world online, but
only on Art Bell?

30.  It is perceived by many that you are involved in collusion
with Art Bell as an entertainer and nothing more . Respond to
this?

31.  Are you under paid contract with Art Bell and Jacor
Enterprises as an entertainer and thus conclusive to such an
agreement in normal practice thus precludes you from answering
questions to your claims, and appearances on any other shows
other than Art Bell? Explain this perception and charge by
many?

32.  You have a page sequence of 'Fireballs Over Turret Peak'.
The photos you have used are taken from various NASA archives
and are solid rocket motor exhaust plumes from vehicles on
ascent from either KSC or from Vandenberg AFB. The craft in
each case has been removed with a graphic software program. Why
have you lied and presented falsified photos to the public at
large in the attempt to deceive them?

33.  You have never worked for NASA. You are known as being
insane. Explain?

34.  You post no NASA release statement for all these falsified
photos, no different than I had to have Michael Theroux do at
borderlands when he hosted my page and had the Smithsonian-NASA
link to my painting sample at NASA Headquarters. In this case,
I painted the painting, yet, legally, I had to post the
copyright and ownership data for the public at large that it
was NASA's. Why haven't you done this too for all these
falsified and stolen photos on your website?

35.  For the Pegasi star signal, what special equipment and
early warning devices do you have that gives you this strategic
edge to an impending landing on Turret Peak Arizona for the
morning of December 7, 1998, over assets owned and operated by
NORAD and DoD and other strategic agencies that were immutably
not aware of this star signal?

36.  Did you have another inside source at DoD or elsewhere
that brought this revelation of exclusive data to your
attention?

37.  If you had this information, and knew of it, why did you
only notify the public online, rather than NASA and other
agencies that did not have this information and could have
assisted you in this finding?

38.  Why is it that the high school you attended, and the man
you stole his name and identity from for the Pegasi hoax, a one
named Paul Dore, have such similar names. The mathematical
coincidence is too great for serendipity for this conundrum.
Justify this?

39.  Why would you elaborate on Paul Dore, using and stating
his person, when he asked you to quit using his name?

40.  Why does the whole Pegasi event trace itself back to you
and you exclusively along with crude assistance from Terry Tim
Rogers?

41.  You harp incessantly on the 'Masonic' connection and its
activities regarding NASA when in fact, it is the Mormon
connection that is the prime issue back before 1986. Yet, this
is never mentioned. The Masonic nonsense is basically a lie.
The Mormon connection is far more compelling and a fact. Why do
you selectively ignore one for another?

42.  What registration wave did you deploy to confirm the
Pegasi signal?

43.  What was the Heim-Wave coefficient for determining the
artificial nature of the Pegasi signal?

44.  What part of NORAD's Fence Database did you have access
to, to confirm the landing was going to be on Turret Peak,
Arizona,  or that registered such?

45.  Why do you not embrace all number recurrences over and
above 19.5 and 33 for your highly strange and peculiar
postulations?

46.  Why do you not use the more common and stranger recurrence
numbers like 22, 77, 4.5, 99.7, 50, .125, 37.5, etc. which show
up far more frequently than 19.5 and 33 in even stranger places
and occurrences in our lexicon?

47.  You have only a high school education. Explain?

48.  At what point did you gain full registration for the
Pegasi intruder space ship?

49.  Why do you hide behind the anonymity of the Internet to
make your claims which are fraudulent, then prohibit anyone
from contacting you for further information?

50.  Why do you postulate hyper dimensional physics claims, but
use false and gross error of math, or no math at all, to
substantiate your claims as is normal conventions of protocol
in science?

51.  You postulate hyper dimensional physics. Thus, then,
explain the mathematics fact, called an argument, of the simple
equation of +SOL><-SOL/E-squared. Which is the baseline for
anything that is a warping of our space time place?

52.  What is the interfacing of Femptophoton research in
relation to hyper dimensional physics?

53.  Under Turret Peak, you state that some machinery was
turned on in very large caves and tunnels. Dr. Richard Sauder,
the foremost authority on this anomaly, strongly refutes your
statement. Explain or counter Dr. Sauder's assessment?

54.  I had Model Railroad friends, which is my indoor hobby,
and whom live in Phoenix, go up to Turret Peak to explore for
old railroad and narrow gauge mining data. They are not UFO
people or know anything about you or the Pegasi ship. They
reported back to me on the 7th, and the 8th of December, 1998,
that there was nothing up there out of the norm at all. Explain
this?

55.  You talk and postulate a lie of demented fashion about
horizontal snow, occurring with no wind, and that it is falling
somehow,  which for anyone living in snow prone areas, roughly
80% of the country, reacts to your stated claim as if you are a
clown and is laughable by such a postulation as you present
such on your web site. How do you reconcile this strange
statement and the public's reaction to such inaccuracies?

56.  Why did the police have to be called on you by the family
of Laura Lee and her husband who threatened you with law
enforcement intervention if you would not move out of their
home and not leech off them any more. Explain this?

57.  You discuss some metaphysical connection to all our being
with regard to six sided snow flakes. This is a scientific lie.
Explain?

58.  Why have you and Mike Bara stolen, non copyrighted
material on your websites from The Weather Channel, Unisys,
Accuweather, and other copyrighted and not for repost data?

59.  Why do you use triangles and other symbols on the blurry,
stolen, Mars images on your web site to justify your peculiar
postulations?

60.  Why do you omit the clear, recent photos of Mars, to also
try and lend to your postulation of faces and cities and such
on Mars--which in these latest photos we see what appears to be
a varved, geophysical escarpment by natural conditions. Explain
this?

61.  What you have on your web site looks like blurry photos of
a checkerboard game. What is it we are suppose to see in these?

62.  Why do you have such a long running record with being
found afoul with the law?

63.  Define the Moon for rotation around the Earth and its own
axis--in known orbital mechanical terms?

64.  Define the Earth for rotation around the Sun and its own
axis--in known orbital mechanical terms?

65.  You claim and postulate items that are not science but
gibberish. In this, please define high school level astronomy
terms. One would be, define a light minute?

66.  Define a light day?

67.  You postulate that you know a great deal about space and
NASA. Why is it that you have never ever worked for NASA, any
more than I have, yet you claim you have?

68.  You've never been a consultant either, Why do you claim
this?

69.  Why are there so many people who claim you've taken their
money from them and ran away and never paid them back or did
what you were suppose to do with said finances and are charged
by these people as being a felonious malicious person?

70.  Why do you insinuate NASA lies all the time, when
multitudes want desperately to prove it is you that is the
pathological liar and out to commit extreme malice toward those
around you---but they somehow are never given a voice by Art
Bell to counter these claims and acts by you against them.
Explain this?

71.  It is asked why I would pick on you. This is quite inane
for a question, but for debate sake it is simple. You attack
NASA and NASA cannot respond. I can. I do. I have. It is you
who is a loud child of the macabre', that writes letters to the
Whitehouse, NASA, and other agencies with claims that leaves no
one a response. The result is that the entire UFO culture, just
and unjust alike, is lumped in together. I take issue with
that, now that I am here, and the plethora of lies that you
postulate but insulate yourself under the entertainment skirt
of Art Bell and anonymity on the internet so no one can
confront your claims. You are a double standard in every move
you make. For that, I take issue. I have left myself wide open.
I have seen others take me to task and prove with data my
claims and offerings are the truth. You do not operate under
that protocol. The next question proves this immutably. Respond
to this truth of charge at your person and volitional
operation?

72.  Regarding Mars and Cydonia, on your web site, you state
categorically, "It's A Face". Since there are over 143,000,000
miles separating us from Cydonia, the very outfit that provided
you and I with those photos for you to make that claim
disagrees with you, how then can you make such a conclusion?

73.  Since Cydonia 'Is A Face!!' in your convicted assessment,
then, what extra machinery and equipment and technology do you
have or are using to derive this absolute conclusion?

74.  Would you share this technology that allows you to
formulate a statement of fact that Cydonia is a face with other
agencies or parties such as NASA?

75.  Are you able to know the difference between a statement of
fact and the ability to formulate a premise?

76.  Your radar ring claims on your web site are lies and
fabrications as proven by representatives of the NWS. How do
you explain this?

77.  How do you attack me on STS-48 and STS-80, when this is my
line of work and I say that what is seen in these two videos,
and all other STS flights, is the same anomaly of normal in
flight, on orbit, operations.  Regardless of Kasher or any
other 'expert'. I am the expert on this issue and everyone in
this field will call me,  not that I am in error, but a liar.
You are the liar of fact. Defend this rightful charge. How can
you lie on a subject when you do not have the means or
technology to prove the claim?

78.  What technology do you deploy to attain the musical signal
from Pegasi, a system of stellar objects that are rife with
conditions that would be quite difficult to sustain or nurture
any form of non radioactive life form, let alone one that can
play music?

79.  You not only erred but are a liar in response to the Black
Duck Minnesota Submarine ELF array, even when provided with the
commanding officer of the facility that you could call or email
or fax and verify that it is a real facility. Explain this
patent falsehood on you part, exhibited twofold, which you did
not, have not apologized for?

80.   You uttered that my question on the Art Bell show was
character assassination against you. How can a question as to
why our nation's capitol was going to nuke itself, as claimed
and stated by yourself and verified, constitutes character
assassination?

81.  Why does Art Bell insulate you from inquiry?

82.  Why do you insulate yourself from inquiry?

83.  Why did Arthur C. Clarke call you, "his highly imaginative
fictional friend"?

84.  You falsely allude that gravity, the weak force in this
time-place, has something to do with multi dimensional events,
when in fact it is the manipulation of time and +SOL that is
the true effect. Explain this falsehood as claimed by you?

85.  Being absolutely objective, how in God's name can you
possibly be among the "pioneering top ten' in space, or
anywhere else?

86.  When you categorically lie to the public, and are proven
as such, why do you not issue a retraction when caught, like
what I have revealed about you and what the borderlands
research group has revealed?

87.  You state categorically that NASA killed SOHO. You claim
this is circumstantial. That NASA would blow up its own
spacecraft. You are lying. Refute my charge with facts?

88.  You state lies incessantly about everything. Then if
anyone calls you to task about the lie, which is normal and
fair, you then attack them with malice rather than stating your
proof. Explain this juvenile and baseless one sided ignorant
string of self induced logic on your part?

89.  Your insanity is slowly encroaching upon you like a virus
consuming a host. Instead of going out and getting a job, where
do you intend to go with your macabre' claims of the absurd
that are so quickly disproven openly by so many?

90.  Have you ever really looked up the word, "Arcology"?

91.  You show photos of skyscrapers on Mars on your web site.
On the page in question you show one photo that is Mars, and
another that is Cairo, Egypt. Nice move. If you vector both
photos the same they show the same photograph. There are no
skyscrapers on Mars then. Explain this proven lie?

92.  Regarding the face and Cydonia. Are you really clear what
a 'rectified' photo is verses an 'unrectified' photo?

93.  Do you have a clue what you are espousing with statements
pertaining to question 92?

94.  You state that NASA somehow has purposely ignored certain
'geometry' in relation to Cydonia images. What grounds do you
have for these charges?

95.  Again, since you have access to technology applications
that NASA does not, rather than faulting NASA, wouldn't it be
prudent to share your technology with NASA to help them see the
truth?

96.  Why are copyrighted photos from NASA blank for association
and copyrighted by the Enterprise Mission. This is illegal?

97.  Do have any notion, in lucid fashion, what your
tetrahedral claims of everything NASA really conjures. Explain
this endless loop of virtual misinformation?

98.  Does NASA do ANYTHING right or constructive or inducive to
the mission at hand--beyond providing you with photos to self
interpret?

99.  ABC is furious at your linking and name dropping of their
corporation. Explain this?

100.  Do you have a separate unmanned space program aside from
NASA and the United States' space effort, for which you are
able to derive your 'data' for claim and presentation?

101.  How many books did you write while in jail?

102.  There is a recurring theme in your overall disposition
regarding anything astronomical and NASA related. You insinuate
that NASA spends all 'our' money (mine too, since I pay heavy
taxes for being self employed), on these massive and very
daunting undertakings off Earth. At the very last second, they:
blow up their own space craft, hide the possibility of new
planets, destroy evidence, wreck proof, fake photographs,
change data, fake launches, hide faces on foreign planets,
sneak all sorts of strange things past everyone including you,
lie incessantly about everything they do,  won't go and do what
you want, does foolish things within mission profiles rather
than look at cities and things which are obviously there for
the beckoning, bases every move on the next Mason meeting
outcome, Launches spacecraft only and after a thorough clearing
of all Egyptian symbolism, and tries its darndest to do the
most outlandish thing our species is engaged in--exploration of
the last frontier, only to quench out the findings at the last
minute. Then, have you ever gone to ask the fundamental
question:

WHY?


103.  For 1-20-1999, you claim a shot over the bow of.....what.
That NASA and the occultic involvement they have is such that
they shot a meteror at HAARP. This is a lie. Defend this?

104.  Why do you claim the fact of all things Europa and
oceans? When in fact John Lewis stated this hypothesis back in
June of 1971, when you barely were a lurid spark in Arthur's
eye. Explain this false claim by you?

105.  Why do you claim the 'face' enigma when this was first
stated by NASA and JPL people as the first photos were coming
in and they even posted the 'face' anomaly on the first
released prints, attributing the 'face' effect due to poor
camera resolution, altitude, sunlight angle, speed of orbital
passing, etc., in 1976. Explain this?

106.  In contacting NASA headquarters, they never received that
self serving, prolix, letter addressed to Dan Goldin,
pertaining to the Cydonia revisit, you have posted on your
site. Explain this?

107.  Why do you have the NASA logo backwards on your page, yet
you have all these photos taken from NASA and not one attribute
in thanks for providing the photos in the first place. This
would be normal professional venue in other 'rational' formats.
Explain this contempt for the very source of your being and
life?

108.  In the Space anomalies area you have purported photos of
two objects related to the STS-80 mission flight. In one and
the other you show anomalies that register bigger than the city
of Seattle and San Francisco combined. That would be objects
that are an aggregate 455 square miles. Large objects. Yet, in
no Fence database registration during the mission flow of
STS-80 is objects of any proportions are shown in any other
venue for this period. Defend this lie?

109.  How can objects of these proportions escape anybody's
registration that are on your 'map' overlay of the western
third of America?

110.  In fact, these objects you purport on your space
anomalies page, would be visible to the naked eye on Earth in
broad daylight. Yet, there is no report of these anomalies by
anyone but you. Explain this?

111.  Why is there not a reference for these maps, as would be
in any disclaiming revelation process?

112.  Along with being furious with you, ABC and Ted Koppel
want to know why his picture is on your web site in the fashion
it is. Explain this?

113.  On 4-17-1997, you claim there will be more analysis on
STS-80. It has been 21 months. There is still not any mention
of 'new' analysis by you. When will this additional analysis be
forthcoming?

114.  Being redundant, how do you have the technology and math
deduction skills, along with Art Bell, Kasher, and others to
make the deductions you do and claim, when the assets at NASA
and its contractors cannot make he same deductions as you.
Explain this awful discrepancy that effects me personally and
my work with NASA?

115.  Why do you not have a secret source in the NRO, since
that would preclude needing one in the Pentagon, since the
Pentagon is akin to a giant clerk's office in administration,
not the harbinger of facts?

116.  You claim that my attack of you and your data is
unfounded and I'm stupid. Yet my claims against you and that
others have made against you, have shown to be fact, no
subjectivity to it. Then, when you are shown to be wrong, you
resort to this is all some disinformation and slander campaign.
How can this be inquiry on one side and that is okay, and
slander on the other. This is illogical so explain this?

117.  When you redundantly lie as you do, on nearly everything
on your website and in public statements, and are found out,
you run your mouth in convolution rather than admit the wrong
and move onward. Why?

118.  You are perceived as a liar, a charlatan, a bahl mahl, a
faker, a phony, a criminal, a jerk, a man on the border cusp of
insanity.  These are not subjective conjectures made by
otherwise mean people. These conclusions are made by people in
this field of study as your self, at times being in this far
longer than yourself. They are made strictly by the assessment
of your chosen demeanor and actions. The question then is why
this chosen venue of personal presentation?

119.  Since you will not admit you are a lair and an agent
provocateur of trouble, and yet others when mistaken admit such
or when they are so bold to discredit themselves, they rely on
others to re-verify them and their claims, why do you not
subscribe to the same truth of revelation.

120.  John Pike is the preeminent NASA watchdog scientist. He
is utterly brilliant. In his often scathing criticisms of NASA
he errors, as we all do. In these events he rushes to the fore
showing and admitting and apologizing for his error, then moves
on to the next topic. I had to do the same when not being aware
of Mr. Czarnik.  Finally, there was such a man and I posted
accordingly my error. But in your venue, this was not a venue
for further credibility, no, that meant that everything about
me past and current and future was in error too. Under this
strange protocol, which is a strong percentage of the UFO Field
of Practices, then, being fair, you should be tarred and
feathered by this same group. How come the selective
endorsement of people and data?

121.  You are a horrific pathological liar in the eyes that
have dealt with you and the agency's you have slandered.
Journalists that are aware of you say, "Richard Hoagland is a
shameless man named 'Strange'. He embraces a form of scientific
terrorism--mixing a little tiny grit of truth, with a mind
filled macabre'". (Lennis Bee-Iron, The Village Voice, 1998,
the preeminent gay publication in America today, science page).
Since this is an accurate assumption, and I would agree with
this, how can you justify the claims you make in general to the
mainstream and other fringe elements such as the Village Voice
in continued practice?

122.  My data, claims, statements, revelations, and activities
have been proven all true by outside parties from my self. This
should be the outcome. In your case, when out and out lying is
proven to be the fact, you do not acknowledge this same outcome
of revelation about yourself. Why?

123.  You show signs of dementia, and it is worsening, how do
you intend to rectify this anomaly coming upon your person?

124.  Dr. Steven Hawkings is an astrophysicist, among other
things. He makes far wilder claims about our time-place and our
being than yourself. Yet, since he bases his outlier
postulations on known science as a baseline, he is highly
respected. In your case, since you take the road of
entertainment and tabloid type venue, you are perceived as a
'NUT'. Why have you chosen this latter route, rather than the
former?

125.  You have threatened people with intimidation and worse.
It is why the very 24 or so people that have come forward to
provide information on you, wish to remain anonymous, for which
I do not agree with them at all and I have stated it to every
person who has contacted me. In this, however, should you
continue in this felonious behavior, someone will finally take
you to task. What will you do when you find yourself surrounded
by the very public you have deceived, and they want the truth
from you, or at least an apology?

126.  You discredit NASA at every turn. It is my long standing
agency I've been intimately involved with. Thousands of times
greater than your involvement with this same agency. Neither of
us work for NASA directly. You never have. I have come along
and wish to defend this agency against your stated lies. Why
then is my action, to seek truth and divulge lying by you and
Art Bell and others, and confirm this, is called somehow 'bad'
by you and this industry. But it is perfectly 'good' for you to
continue to traffic lies unchecked. Explain this conundrum of
selective moral center?

127.  At the bottom of the rational food chain, you could
resort to, "I'm having fun", or, as Art Bell does when trapped,
says, "it's entertainment". If this is the case, and it is, why
can't I and others like me also indulge in this practice with
the same unquestionable endorsement you enjoy?

128.  The attorneys representing the family members of the dead
regarding the Hale-Bopp comet fiasco hold you and Art Bell in
part, responsible, for inciting macabre' claims of ships and
other vehicles riding the plume veil of the comet itself. They
are amassing a massive lawsuit against you and others suspected
of perpetrating this heinous disinformation juggernaut that may
have led to these people to take their own lives. Explain this?

129.  What is your technology you have garner to which allows
you to assess the Hale-Bopp data you espouse that NASA and
other agencies do not have at their disposal of deploy?

130.  With this technology you have, and since you are able to
garner data that no else can, would you be willing to share
this special technology with others so they may know what you
know?

131.  You seem to be alone in your endeavors of discovery.
Science and discovery learned is accomplished by cooperation
among all assets available. You are the only one on the planet
who approaches this from a singularity. How can this be?

132.  How can you be the only one privy of this data you
espouse, and with such selfishness,  you will not share this
findings of new data with the very agencies that could and
would substantiate your claims as fact. Explain this peculiar
thing?

133.  Within the mind of an Art Bell and yourself, you become
'confused' with straight questions of verifiable fact. But when
a guest is asked, "how many times did you hit the alien", this
is past off as 'truth'. How can this be the case in your mind
if someone then comes forward and asked to verify these claims,
as has been done with me?

134.  If NASA lies at everything they do, which you strongly
suggest, why do you rely on anything from them, like photos and
such, at all?

135.  For 4-9-1997, you indicate that there is proof of some
connection to hyper dimensional physics to this page
presentation. There is none. Explain this?

136.  For 4-18-1997, you postulate with odd graphics and photos
from NASA archives, nebulous, vague, insinuation about comet
Hale-Bopp having a companion, an ulterior motive for being what
it is. Why would you use NASA photos and data, who is a proven
perpetrators of lies by your assessment, to substantiate your
claims. It is one liar using the data from another liar to tell
us a truth. Explain?

137.  For 5-1-1997, you post why NASA would not come on air
with Art Bell and yourself to debate the Hale-Bopp topic of
data for which NASA tried to have Art Bell present NASA
findings with the same fairness as the claims made by you and
others. NASA steadfastly refused which incensed you. The reason
NASA would not appear is because Art Bell, protecting you, his
boy, would have cut off and censored NASA. In light of recent
circumstances, you want o dispute this statement made by me?

138.  For 6-17-1997 you claim to have proof of scientific
origins of reverse speech revelations that somehow suggest that
NASA is further lying. When this page is accessed, it is gone.
Explain this?

139.  For 1-20-1999 you still persist that NASA is ensconced
with masonic worship. This page in particular about the 'bow
shot' is blatant. I work for the agency in question for detail
data with STS and other work. I have known and have provided
links for proof to NASA directly that you are lying
consistantly. Why do you persist on deceiving the public at
large?

140.  For 4-21-1997, you divulge a proof of statement that
somehow a physical mechanical entity, the Hubble Space
Telescope, is ensconced in hyper dimensional physics. In
contacting the management of HST they not only do not have a
clue what you are saying, but say it is not even in the paucity
of science as it is known and does not make sense. Explain
this?

141.  For 4-22-1997, you divulge and demand that an
investigation be summoned to examine NASA's proven lies about
'artifacts' on Mars. NASA did this with the latest photos. It
shows Cydonia to be a varved geo-eroded escarpment. Until we
set up a few backhoes up there, at 143,000,000 miles distance,
this assessment is at least fair. NASA put its money where it
was charged to do so. Why haven't you?

142.  For 12-4-1997, you claim there is a connection of some
sort between Saturn and the Sun in hyper dimensional physics.
All things on balance, I say you are full of crap. Please
defend that I am in error?

143.  For 5-6-1998, you asked rhetorically when is a crater not
a crater. You then show a very normal, abrupt edged geologic
formation that is abundant my the million of occurrences on our
own planet (I look at one of these anomalies out my upstairs
window in the graphics room up on the side of the 10,000 foot
elevation of the Mission Mountain Range---it's in the form of a
'face'). You then take this natural feature and claim it is
artificial. You are lying. Explain this?

144.  Questions 144 to 199 pertain to the claims and statements
made by Richard C. Hoagland of the Enterprise Mission regarding
NEXRAD radar and other weather related data,  which has been
proven to be false, lies, misinformation, and other unfounded
claims, by elements of the National Weather Service and NOAA
with the assistance of Borderlands Research Foundation. The
latter site has the answers to the intended questions herein.

200.  In your various claims I challenge them on all, all
subjects. You have failed to prove them to be what you claim.
You have been refuted at every turn. You persist to lie and
present falsehoods.

In my case, I postulated I was a fraud. It was proven to be not
so--that I am in fact, who I say I am. Outside parties have
proven this. Others still came forward on my behalf, taking
issue with the spurious claims against me.

From the beginning two names and addresses appear on nearly
every mail from me. In each case these two individuals are Scot
Bowlin and Michael Osborne.

Scot Bowlin goes back with me for 15 years. He worked at NASA
and has since moved on. I'm not sure what he is up to
currently. I did asked him to monitor my mails and involvement
in this 'field' of study. He verifies my personal claims as
best as he is able to on his own volition. I did not asked him
to come forward.

Michael Osborne is an Advanced Photo Interpreter for the
National Reconnaissance Office. He is, in essence, a spy. He
has been watching this too from the beginning and has made no
comment publicly. He will verify me if needed. He has divulged
no secrets or anything else pertinent to the security of the
United States of America. This event amuses him greatly. His
assessment is that this community of 'researchers' is not ready
to recieve any congnizant information openly since it suscribes
to selective endorsement of postulated data that is spurious at
best, false at the worst. I agree.

There, now, that is some facts. My last question, then, since
this list of questions is going up the chain way above NASA,
will you admit you have lied repeatedly to this online and off
line community pertaining to the UFO culture,  claims about
NASA and other statements filled with pathos. Will you admit
this, since I did the same pertaining to myself when it wasn't
true, to get others to defend me on their own, which they did.

Will you answer these questions now?

If not, and others within this 'field' allow you to do what you
do, then this undustry needs to be kept right where it has put
itself. The 'giggle' factor of choice for Everyman everywhere.


sincerely,

Robert A.M. Stephens
NASA Documentation Program
Stillwater Mills
Contractor-Aerospace
406-745-3818
sti3818@montana.com
http://198.116.116.10/gallery/arts/samples.html







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 25

                            PROJECT GUFONE Search

From: Mike Farrell <mikefarr@midcoast.com.au>
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 03:24:42 +1100
Fwd Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 10:04:25 -0500
Subject: PROJECT GUFONE Search

**************************************************************
__________________________

This is Australia Calling!

Greetings UFO Video Enthusiasts Everywhere...and a special hello
to researchers in America and England!

Here is a list of important Television UFO Programs that we will
not be able to see or in some cases, we will have to wait years
to see. We are trying to bypass the normal global media network
policies, politics and procrastination, so we can share with UFO
researchers in Australia and New Zealand the kind of shows that
you may take for granted in countries like America and England.
We have also established a video exchange network to help gather
and circulate this UFO TV Video material to other countries in
Europe, the Middle East, South America, and Southeast Asia. In
return, we can offer you UFO TV programs and "UFO raw footage"
from around the world. We have footage and interviews from
English and Non-English speaking countries, with translations
provided in many cases.

*********************************************************
UPCOMING UFO TV PROGRAMS WORTH TAPING AND SHARING IN 1999:
*********************************************************


New NBC Movie 'CONFIRMATION' (USA-FEB.17)

NBC will air new serious look into the alien abduction
phenomenon and the work of Whitley Strieber. Program will be
broadcast in USA On February 17, 8-10:00pm. Implant removal
operations will be shown!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


'THE UNINVITED' (USA-JAN.18)

An exciting new documentary on the alien abduction phenomenon is
to be screened by The Learning Channel in USA on 18th January.
It's possibly the most comprehensive program on the subject ever
produced, and features interviews with the likes of Budd
Hopkins, David Jacobs, John Mack, Whitley Strieber, Travis
Walton, and Peter Robbins.  There's also a rare interview with
Linda Cortile, and footage of one of Budd's Support Group
meetings. There are also interviews with Philip Klass, Dr.Chris
French and Dr.Susan Blackmore.

Expect furious Internet debate on this one!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

'WATCH THE SKIES' (USA & UK?-JAN.5)

A new television series looking at UFOs, alien abductions,
cropcircles, cover-ups and conspiracies.  Called "Watch the
Skies" it will be screened by Grenada Television on Tuesday
nights at 7.30pm.

On current plans, the first program is due to be screened on 5th
January. Those interviewed include Apollo 14 Astronaut Edgar
Mitchell and respected ufologist Timothy Good.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

'UFOs: 50 YEARS OF DENIAL?' (USA-MAR.3)

A documentary set to air March 3 on The Learning Channel.

Pictures of flying saucers strike a dramatic image.  But
documentary filmmaker James Fox says it will take the testimony
of credible witnesses like Astronauts Edgar Mitchell and Gordon
Cooper to change public opinion and force the government's hand.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

'RIDDLE OF THE SKIES'   (UK & Germany?-DATES?)

Union Skyline Pictures of London are including raw footage of a
UFO and plane crash from Israel as part of their upcoming three
part series "Riddle Of The Skies", which will be broadcast by
Channel Four in the UK and RTL in Germany.

(What's the dates on these, please?)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

'MILLENNIUM TV-THE BIG END'  (UK-JAN.10)

The BBC is currently filming a a seven episode TV series
"Millennium TV- The Big End". It's the first program being shown
on Sunday 27 December on UK national TV. It's expected that the
program on cattle mutilations will be shown on Sunday, 10 Jan.

****************************************************************

PROJECT GUFONE needs your help!

We are trying to bring all UFO researchers everywhere "up to
speed" on the available televised UFO programs, witness
interviews, news, talk shows, and raw footage that is in the
public domain today. This way we can all put our minds to work
on the same evidence at the same time. We expect 1999 to be a
landmark year in quality network broadcasts and skywatching
videos. We exchange the video material from our own countries at
our own expense. No money ever changes hands. This way we can
operate under the protection of the International Fair Trade
Doctrine to copy and exchange broadcast material for educational
and research purposes only, but not for commercial gain.

We are looking for reliable video contacts in America and
England who will tape these upcoming TV programs listed above
and send them to us, in exchange for the same kind of important
material from other countries around the world. We provide
conversion to your tape format at no charge to you. This
includes NTSC, PAL, SECAM, M-PAL, or N-PAL.

The first 'good-video-samaritans' to respond to our plea, will
become  members of PROJECT GUFONE (Global UFO Newsvideo
Network). Once accepted, you will receive an inventory of video
material to choose from for exchange, plus will be added to our
private GUFONE mailing list for dedicated UFO and Paranormal
Video Enthusiasts _only_!

This new UFO video PROJECT GUFONE is designed to broaden our
global view of the UFO Phenomenon, and give us more reason to
act locally. It is established in honor of the 'PROJECT 1947' by
Jan L. Aldrich, which still motivates UFO researchers everywhere
to help gather personal accounts, newspaper clippings, reports,
and government documents from the early years of Modern Ufology.

Imagine if we were able to gather, exchange and show _all_ the
UFO 'amateur home videos' and Television UFO Newscasts and
Special Programs collected from around the world at any given
time. Then we might find that the "Big Picture" of worldwide UFO
sightings and encounters would have a greater and more
convincing impact on researchers and the curious public alike.

The sharing and showing of this video material would reaffirm
and further expose the universal nature and appeal of the UFO
Phenomenon to everyone watching TV.

This PROJECT GUFONE hopes to put the fate of these UFO
Newscasts, Programs, and especially the UFO "amateur home
videos" back into the hands of the people, where it belongs. We
accomplish this by gathering and sending these UFO videotapes to
each other, from one country to another, so we can all learn and
benefit from what we discover about the UFO phenomenon, it's
nature and it's meaning. Thus in the process, we may find that
the answer to the UFO Mystery lies NOT in what we think it is or
might be, but in what we haven't thought of YET!

****************************************************************

"We are going to see more and more of these visitors from space
and before too long, the evidence will be incontrovertible. That
you will have on your television screens concrete evidence, that
the ships are here and that they are real and that they're not
fantastic things cooked up to make movies." (public statement
from contactee at Giant Rock UFO Convention in 1958)

****************************************************************

That time is almost here!
We can help put that "incontrovertible concrete evidence"
on television screens all over the world!

The fact is, people are conditioned to "believe" what they see
on TV, that's why we have to use this medium of exchange. The
medium is the message, and the message is: "The Truth is Closer
than we Imagine!"

__________________________________________________________________
As Director of PROJECT GUFONE, I invite you to visit our web pages
for further details on the

Keith Basterfield Australian Researcher's Network at:
http://www.fan.net.au/~tkbnetw/mikes.htm

and

The UFO Research Group of Sydney, NSW. at:
http://www.ufor.asn.au

Please contact me directly with your interest, questions,
comments, or exchange offers. Let's help each other to share the
evidence! Let's help all Researchers to see what's already out
there!

email: mikefarr@midcoast.com.au

_________________________
It's the least we can do!
Thank You for Your Consideration,
Mike Farrell
______________________________
Director of PROJECT GUFONE '98
(Global UFO Newsvideo Exchange)
http://www.fan.net.au/~tkbnetw/mikes.htm
http://www.ufor.asn.au
------------------------------
P.O.Box 2526
Port Macquarie
New South Wales 2444
Australia

****************************************************************
"And since seldom do instruments record flying saucers, it's the
people who report seeing them that are the most significant way
of getting at the Truth!" (J. Allen Hynek)
****************************************************************





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 25

                Re: Santilli Knew 'Tent Footage' Was a Fraud?

From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 12:09:27 +0000
Fwd Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 10:10:09 -0500
Subject: Re: Santilli Knew 'Tent Footage' Was a Fraud?


>From: Steven W. Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
>Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 07:25:51 -0500
>Fwd Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 09:39:42 -0500
>Subject: Re: Santilli Knew 'Tent Footage' Was a Fraud?

>>Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 22:33:41 -0600 (CST)
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>From: Dennis Stacy<dstacy@texas.net>
>>Subject: Re: Santilli Knew 'Tent Footage' Was a Fraud?

Previously, Dennis had asked:

>>Wasn't the film already processed, ie, developed, when Santilli
>>acquired it? Has it ever been claimed that Santilli received
>>unprocessed/undeveloped film?

Steven replied:

>Santilli indicated that the "cameraman" had to process a number
>of reels of film that required special processing, which I
>assume means a varying degree of 'push' processing for those
>rolls that needed it.  These rolls he allegedly had to be
>processed by hand, which is why they were still in his
>possession and not sent to Washington with the rest.

>I believe that Santilli also said the "film" was very fragile
>and had to be transfered to video a frame at a time, which may
>be the "processing" that he has referred to in some statements.

Hi Dennis and Steven,

Santilli, like many people, probably believes that film is still
transfered to video using a telecine projector. Such projectors
used a 5 bladed shutter and synchronous motor to translate the
nominal 24 fps film to 30 fps video. And, like most projectors,
fragile film would have trouble going through them.

Hence, Santilli's claim about having to "transfer one frame at a
time" to avoid film damage.

Santilli should have done more homework before fabricating his
story.

Telecines haven't been used for more than 15 years or so. Modern
transfers are achieved using a "flying spot scanner" such as the
Rank Cintel or the Phillips transfer device. Such a device uses
an electron beam to scan the film in REAL TIME as it zips
through to video. In addition, the device uses no sprockets so
it is VERY gentle on fragile film stocks. It can even transfer
films with missing sprocket holes without missing a beat or
creating a jump in the image.

In fact, the advent of the Rank was a boone to film archivists
everywhere since it was capable of handling old nitrate film neg
from the 20's and 30's; VERY fragile stuff (and flammable!).
Devices like the Rank are now used in all transfer houses and
would have no problem handling the much tougher B&W reversal
that the AA footage was supposedly shot on, even from 1947.

If Santilli maintains that the film had to be transferred one
frame at a time, he's flat out lying. There would never be a
reason to, although it makes a good story for the public to hear
regarding his efforts.

In regard to the terms "processing" and "development", please
note the following post from Mr. Easton:

>The seller of the film apparently went on to offer Santilli 15
>cans of undeveloped film, filmed by him while in the military,
>of the Roswell crash scene from the ground and air, and of the
>alien autopsies.

<snip>

>At the end of 1995, Ray explained, "I mentioned this to a
>researcher in the early days, before we had completed the
>processing of the reels. It was a mistake on my part. I repeated
>what the cameraman had told me and expected no problem with the
>development of the film. Unfortunately the film on this reel was
>too badly damaged to retrieve an image".

If this info is correct, here we see that Santilli dealt with 15
cans of undeveloped film. In addition, Santilli uses the terms
"processing of the reels" and "development of the film" within
the same context.

I don't think for a minute he was talking about "transfer" to
video.

Later,

Roger Evans





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 25

                           Re: A Tale from Africa

From: Brian Cuthbertson <brianc@freeside.fc.net>
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 10:47:38 -0600 (CST)
Fwd Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 10:12:20 -0500
Subject: Re: A Tale from Africa


>Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 02:23:43 -0500
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net>
>Subject: Re: A Tale from Africa

>The Irish country folks used to put their male children to bed
>in girls dressing gowns (in order to disguise their sex) because
>(according to legend) "the wee folk" would come in the night and
>steal away with the child. There are many such "legends/ tales"
>that go back many centuries. I know it's true because I've been
>seeing those same little buggers ever since childhood.

>I hope and pray that sooner or later people begin to realize
>that we are not (all) crazy or delusional or suffering from some
>other mental/psychological aberration. Whatever these
>beings/things are they did not "arrive" in 1947. They have been
>around a _lot_ longer than 50 years. All indications are that
>they are (and have been) living in some kind of weird symbiotic
>relationship, or maybe even stewardship, to mankind for a lot
>longer than we may suspect. (For the benefit of those who enjoy
>nit picking anything I say to death, this is just my opinion and
>nothing more. I don't intend the remarks as fodder for debate.)

John & all interested,

As I just mentioned privately to another poster to this List,
the Arabs have been aware of this phenomenon for a lot longer
than we johnny-come-lately ufologists.  They call these folks
the "Jinn".  Their legal status is even recognized in Arabic law.
For an interesting web page on them, please see the following
web page (not mine) ...

http://www.qtm.net/~geibdan/newsd/islam.html

Its a strange world out there,
  -Brian Cuthbertson





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 25

                               Night Visitors

From: GT McCoy <gtmccoy@harborside.com>
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 09:06:29 -0800
Fwd Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 10:23:27 -0500
Subject: Night Visitors


I remember reading, in I think, Omni Magazine back in the early
80's a short article on Joseph Smith's visitation by a cast of
"heavenly" characters. It seemed that the whole thing may have
been a grand Cosmic joke played upon a poor little earth savage
by a scout ship crew that had been on patrol too long!

The point is, and Mr. Ratcliff is on to somthing here, if you
can,( and it would take guts and an good concept of your own
place in the universe,) -Question the Contactor.

The Christian Bible even mentions this in one of St.Paul's
Epsitles about being a "Good Berean" - and Questioning the
spirit (or whomever happens to standing in your 23 rd. floor
bedroom).

GT McCoy





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 25

                           Re: 'Eprime' In Action

From: Jeff Rense <eotl@west.net>
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 10:21:08 -0800 (PST)
Fwd Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 10:35:11 -0500
Subject: Re: 'Eprime' In Action


>From: John W. Ratcliff <jratcliff@worldnet.att.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: 'Eprime' In Action
>Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 00:33:44 -0600


>In some message I posted on UFO UpDates a while back, I made
>disparaging remarks which included Jeff Rense of
><www.sightings.com> fame.  A few members of the peanut gallery,
>lurkers all, e-mailed me grand huzzah's for calling Hoagland to
>task, but tsked, tsked, me for including Rense with that hoary
>horde of paranormal pontificators.  While Jeff Rense probably is
>fairly rational in real life, the fact remains that his web site
>continues to sponsor articles about speech reversals, and other
>irrational nonsense, thus thrusting him into the category of
>'part of the problem' rather than 'part of the solution.'


Hi John,

I enjoyed your note, you are a well-spoken man.  Somehow,
however, in your surge to judge, you have gone right past the
entire point of my website: it is a general news service...and
not a platform which reflects or endorses any particular
viewpoint over another.

Search it and you will find that it presents the views of not
only Mr. Heseman and Mr. Meier but equally those of Kal Korff.
I have even had Mr. Korff and Mr. Randy Winters debate Mr. Meier
on my program.

On the website, as even the most casual observer can see, flows
a stream of articles which represent diametrically opposed
viewpoints on such as the coming Y2K crisis and literally scores
of other significant issues. Perhaps you missed my DataPages
archives at the bottom of the homepage which contain hundreds
upon hundreds of exceedingly diverse opinion and contradictory
data.

The site purveys a smorgasbord of information designed to,
hopefully, stimulate critical thinking.  It is an opportunity to
exercise and define one's personal intellectual paradigm.
Should you not find an article palatable, there is a certain key
on your keyboard you may depress to instantly remove it from
your mental tv tray.  To condemn my website on the grounds you
purport would be indentical to condemning this list or any other
legitimate forum for the competent free expression of thought,
data, and individual opinion.

In a general sense, there is probably something on my website to
offend most everyone sooner or later.

My website is a free-ranging presentation of news and
information: from ufology and the paranormal to cancer research
and nutrition; from Y2K, our dying environment and the NBC
threat to the discovery of extra solar planets and the latest in
genetic engineering.

If presenting such material makes me 'part of the problem' and a
member of the 'hoary hoard' in your world, John, I say 'good
luck to you' and urge you to spend your time elsewhere on the
net.

Furthermore, to refer to the totality of my website and these
subjects as 'new folklore' connotes a disturbing, bizarre
elitism, and rather frightful state of mentality which leaves
one close to a physical shudder in response.

Oh, and you are right, I am 'probably fairly rational in real
life'...

Jeff Rense






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 25

                          BWW Media Alert 19990124

From: BufoCalvin <BufoCalvin@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 13:36:30 EST
Fwd Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 10:38:33 -0500
Subject: BWW Media Alert 19990124


Bufo Calvin
P O Box 5231, Walnut Creek, CA  94596
Internet: BufoCalvin@aol.com
Website:

http://members.aol.com/bufocalvin"

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/redirect-home/bufosweirdworld

ALL RIGHTS RESERVED (permission is granted to reproduce or
redistribute this edition of Bufo's WEIRD WORLD provided that
attribution is made to http://members.aol.com/bufocalvin. It is
good etiquette to check with strangers before you e-mail them
something.  If you forward this, please make sure it is clear
that you are forwarding it).


January 24, 1999

This one is may be a bit lighter this week: quite a busy week
for me.  STRANGE SCIENCE on THE LEARNING CHANNEL may be
interesting next week.

On to the listings: Times are generally Pacific.

TELEVISION

A&E

Next Thursday, February 4, 9:00 PM, THE UNEXPLAINED: CLOSE
ENCOUNTERS (UFOs)

Next Friday, February 4, 1:00 AM, THE UNEXPLAINED: CLOSE
ENCOUNTERS (UFOs)

THE DISCOVERY CHANNEL

Sunday, January 24, 4:00 PM, INSIDE AREA 51
Thursday, January 28, 10:00 PM, INTO THE UNKNOWN: CREATURES IN THE SHADOWS
Friday, January 29, 1:00 AM, INTO THE UNKNOWN: CREATURES IN THE SHADOWS
Next Sunday, January 31, 12:30 PM, ARTHUR C. CLARKE'S WORLD OF STRANGE POWERS:
GHOSTS, APPARITIONS, AND HAUNTED HOUSES
Next Thursday, February 4, 10:00 PM, INTO THE UNKNOWN: GHOSTS AND UFOS
Next Friday, February 5, 1:00 AM, , INTO THE UNKNOWN: GHOSTS AND UFOS

THE DISNEY CHANNEL

Sunday, January 24, 5:45 PM, GOING WILD! WITH JEFF CORWIN (includes bigfoot)

THE LEARNING CHANNEL
Next Monday, February 1, 9:00 PM, GREAT MYSTERIES AND MYTHS (includes the Loch
Ness monster and religious mysteries)
Next Monday, February 1, 10:00 PM, STRANGE SCIENCE: BIZARRE PHENOMENA:
STIGMATA
Next Tuesday, February 2, Midnight, GREAT MYSTERIES AND MYTHS (includes the
Loch Ness monster and religious mysteries)
Next Tuesday, February 2, 1:00 AM, STRANGE SCIENCE: BIZARRE PHENOMENA:
STIGMATA
Next Tuesday, February 2, 9:00 PM, UFOS: APOLLO 13 (not sure why they have
this combined...)
Next Tuesday, February 2, 10:00 PM, STRANGE SCIENCE: WEIRD PLACES
Next Wednesday, February 3, Midnight, UFOS: APOLLO 13 (not sure why they have
this combined...)
Next Wednesday, February 3, 1:00 AM, STRANGE SCIENCE: WEIRD PLACES
Next Wednesday, February 3, 10:00 PM, STRANGE SCIENCE (includes UFOs)
Next Thursday, February 4, 1:00 AM, STRANGE SCIENCE (includes UFOs)
Next Thursday, February 4, 10:00 PM, STRANGE SCIENCE: UNUSUAL PEOPLE (includes
spontaneous human combustion, psychic artists)
Next Friday, February 5, 1:00 AM, STRANGE SCIENCE: UNUSUAL PEOPLE (includes
spontaneous human combustion, psychic artists)
Next Friday, February 5, 10:00 PM, STRANGE SCIENCE: ODD SOUNDS (ringing rocks,
ghosts, Taos hum, etc.)

THE SCIENCE CHANNEL

The new schedule (since December 28, 1998) is weird programming for an hour
each at 3:00 AM, 11:00 AM,and 7:00 PM. Alternating shows are: INTO THE UNKNOWN
and ARTHUR C. CLARKE'S MYSTERIOUS UNIVERSE. They also run a Roswell show now
every other week (it's probably the same show every time) at 4:00 AM and noon
on Sundays.

THE SCI-FI CHANNEL

Tuesday, January 26, 11:00 AM, SIGHTINGS: EPISODE #3019 (Mexican UFOs; psychic
twins; cloning)
Wednesday, January 27, 11:00 AM, SIGHTINGS: EPISODE #3020 (Pacific Northwest
UFOs; luck; psychic detective; haunted hotel in California)
Thursday, January 28, 11:00 AM, SIGHTINGS: EPISODE #3021 (secret government
UFO research; Roswell; psychic detective; cemetery haunting)
Friday, January 29, 11:00 AM, SIGHTINGS: EPISODE #3022 (twins abducted by
aliens; artificial intelligence; haunting; angels)
Tuesday, February 2, 11:00 AM, SIGHTINGS: EPISODE #3023 (past-lives; heartland
ghost; UFOs and nuclear weapons; snake handling; near-death experiences)
Wednesday, February 3, 11:00 AM, SIGHTINGS: EPISODE #3024 (Middle East UFOs;
bigfoot; near-death experiences in children)
Thursday, February 4, 11:00 AM, SIGHTINGS: EPISODE #3025 (Hangar 18; psychic
detective; alien abduction)
Friday, February 5, 11:00 AM, SIGHTINGS: EPISODE #3026 (technology of UFOs;
does getting hit in the head make you psychic; Bahamian obeah ritual; Mexican
UFOs; intuitive healing)

___________________________
___________________________

This is Bufo saying, "If =everything= seemed normal, that =would= be weird!"
____________________________

You can stop receiving this from me just by asking (note: it is commonly
redistributed, and I can't control you getting it from those sources) by
e-mail at BufoCalvin@aol.com.  You can also subscribe or unsubscribe to
Bufo's WEIRD WORLD Media Alert the same way. Also, please let me know if
there is something in the media you think I should cover. Deadline is Tuesday, t
he week before.





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 25

                       Re: R.A.M.S. - A Parting Shot?

From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 19:19:22 +0000
Fwd Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 10:50:38 -0500
Subject: Re: R.A.M.S. - A Parting Shot?


>From: Dave Ledger <dledger@cableinet.co.uk>
>Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 16:10:34 +0000
>Fwd Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 08:45:56 -0500
>Subject: Re: R.A.M.S. - A Parting Shot?

>>Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 15:59:09 +0000
>>From: Robert A. M. Stephens <sti3818@montana.com>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>Subject: Re: R.A.M.S. - A Parting Shot?

Previously, Stephens wrote:

>>I have answered this in great depth in 9 differnet venues, in
>>detail, over and over. Still, I am told I have not.

Dave responded:

>Mr Stephens, You may have answered these questions elsewhere,
>but you certainly did not answer them on this particular list.
>Despite what you may assume, I do not follow you around the
>internet and therefore had not heard your previous claimed
>explanations.

Hi Dave,

Don't you know?

According to Robert Stephens he receives 4,200 emails a week,
just in support of his various positions and opinions. This
doesn't even take into consideration his Q&As regarding NASA.
Do you think he really has time to answer any of your questions
on this List with anything more than a vague, generic, issue
avoiding response that is the email equivalent of a form letter?
Tsk, tsk, tsk. Mr. Stephens has much more important things to do
than talk about facts. <G>

Take care,

Roger Evans





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 25

                     Skeptic's Address @ UpDates Archive

From: Garrison L. Hilliard <garrison@efn.org>
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 19:46:40 GMT
Fwd Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 11:01:45 -0500
Subject: Skeptic's Address @ UpDates Archive

[Non-Subscriber Post]

On the page:

http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates/1997/mar/m10-013.shtml

you should change

skeptix@cyberwarped.com to skeptix@efn.org

and

listserv@cyberwarped.com to listproc@efn.org

(yep, we moved).

[Does being a skeptic preclude understanding the meaning of the
 word 'Archive'? <VBG>

 The UFO UpDates Archive is basically 'un-touchable' - all
 messages stay as they are. _This_ message will pop-up when
 anyone uses the Ufomind search engine on your name or the
 word 'skeptic'. Happy scepticism -- ebk]







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 25

                                Re: Who Knew?

From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 20:03:03 +0000
Fwd Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 11:09:54 -0500
Subject: Re: Who Knew?


>From: Greg St. Pierre <StrmNut@aol.com>
>Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 09:00:09 EST
>Fwd Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 09:50:49 -0500
>Subject: Who Knew?

Previously, Greg offered:

>I thought I'd share a little known fact with you movie buffs out
>there. Before Steven Spielberg began work on E.T., he and a
>small team of artists were working on a project called "Night
>Skies", a movie about decidedly unfriendly aliens visiting
>earth. Effects people had even produced working alien creatures,
>with realistic aspects such as subdermal muscle movements, skin
>texture and facial features.

>Unfortunately, for reasons unknown, the project was suddenly
>abandoned for the cuter E.T., and the rest is history.

>The only place I've ever seen reference to this information was
>in a movie industry magazine called Cineffex. Perhaps some
>person with connections in the movie business (I  won't mention
>you, Roger) could do a little digging and come up with some more
>info.

Hi Greg!

All I remember is that Spielberg and Rick Baker, the effects
guy, had a falling out over money and R&D costs. Spielberg
reportedly had the effects studio hot-locked and hired Rambaldi,
the same guy that did the really terrible alien in Close
Encounters, to do the work on ET. (If you look at the pictures
of Rambaldi, he looks just like ET! No kidding.)

There have been some that have suggested that ET is the
retelling of the story of Christ; certainly, the storylines are
very similar. It's possible that Spielberg saw the obvious
potential for drama there.

On the other hand...

A woman reportedly came forward and claimed that ET was a direct
steal of a screenplay she had written about a magical frog who
befriends a little girl. The frog was trying to get back to his
home, a mystical lake or something.

As the story goes, she had submitted the script to Columbia
Pictures, I think, and had a letter of acknowledgment to that
effect. This proof of access and the testimony of none other
than Ray Bradbury about the two stories' similarities I believe
forced a settlement. (and probably got her more money than she
would have ever sold the script for)

To my knowledge, the lady lived happily ever after.

As did Stephen. (He calls me Rog.)  ;)

The End.

Roger Evans





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 25

                           Re: A Tale from Africa

From: Scott Carr <sardonica@erols.com>
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 12:21:43 -0800
Fwd Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 11:13:38 -0500
Subject: Re: A Tale from Africa


>From: Roy Hale <roy.hale@virgin.net>
>To: <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: A Tale from Africa
>Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 03:55:09 -0000

>He told me about a folklore, which concerned little figures
>appearing in the homes of people and subsequently abducting
>them, apparently this is well known in Ghana folklore and there
>are drawings of these little fellows, from which he went on to
>inform me, "They look pretty much like the Grey Alien". These
>type of occurrences apparently have been carrying on for
>centuries,

I do recall having read quite a bit on African UFO related
folklore and abductions in Brad Steiger's 'The Rainbow
Conspiracy'. But then again, this is Brad Steiger we're talking
about, so if you read it, please remember to take everything
with at least two grains of salt.

-Scott C. Carr

Editor, The Flying Saucer Gazette
http://www.erols.com/sardonica

Producer, "UFO Desk"
99.5 FM WBAI, NY





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 25

                              Roger's Rhyme #1

From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 11:20:20 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 11:20:20 -0500
Subject: Roger's Rhyme #1

        ::
:
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 23:52:13 +0000
:
:
:
To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
Subject: Roger's Rhyme #1
:
:

Hello all,

Feeling a bit creative tonite. Enjoy...


I came to this list by way of a friend
in the hope that, per chance, a fresh view I might lend
to the views, high and low, of those that are able
to accept new ideas and blow off age old fables.

But, alas I do find that what�s old is what�s new
as the truth, far to often, is looked at askew.
Who am I, some might ask, to suggest that these things
should be thought of as fact when the fat lady sings?

No one, to be sure, am I that�s for certain.
Just pay little notice to the man �hind the curtain,
for he pulls all the levers and he makes all the rules
he�ll swear up is down and disagree, you�re a fool.

First there was Ed, then RAM Stevens and Gary
to �splain to us all that our ideas were not cherry.
For we mortals are weak and possess not a clue
how to process our thoughts the divine way that they do.

Hynek and Larsen and NASA and Roswell,
Santilli and some guy that doesn�t shoot film well.
They take up our bandwidth and never come clean
about the secrets they hold and all that they mean.

Is the Alien real? Did it ever breath life?
Or is the photography bad to hide slips of the knife?
Santilli, no doubt, sits drinking a brew
secure in the knowledge that nobody knew.

But is it so hard to reason this out
that the image we see is a fake, there�s no doubt
that we want to believe, we want it so bad
that if we�re not careful, we�ll find we�ve been had.

So I leave all of you with this one final thought:
Does the King really have clothes or have we been bought
by our own basic need to see something real
where the truth�s been replaced by a two network deal?

(How'd I do, Alfred?)

Later,

Roger Evans
From: moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 23:52:13 +0000
To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
Subject: Roger's Rhyme #1


Hello all,


Feeling a bit creative tonite. Enjoy...


I came to this list by way of a friend
in the hope that, per chance, a fresh view I might lend
to the views, high and low, of those that are able
to accept new ideas and blow off age old fables.

But, alas I do find that what�s old is what�s new
as the truth, far too often, is looked at askew.
Who am I, some might ask, to suggest that these things
should be thought of as fact when the fat lady sings?

No one, to be sure, am I that�s for certain.
Just pay little notice to the man �hind the curtain,
for he pulls all the levers and he makes all the rules
he�ll swear up is down and disagree, you�re a fool.

First there was Ed, then RAM Stevens and Gary
to �splain to us all that our ideas were not cherry.
For we mortals are weak and possess not a clue
how to process our thoughts the divine way that they do.

Hynek and Larsen and NASA and Roswell,
Santilli and some guy that doesn�t shoot film well.
They take up our bandwidth and never come clean
about the secrets they hold and all that they mean.

Is the Alien real? Did it ever breath life?
Or is the photography bad to hide slips of the knife?
Santilli, no doubt, sits drinking a brew
secure in the knowledge that nobody knew.

But is it so hard to reason this out
that the image we see is a fake, there�s no doubt
that we want to believe, we want it so bad
that if we�re not careful, we�ll find we�ve been had.

So I leave all of you with this one final thought:
Does the King really have clothes or have we been bought
by our own basic need to see something real
where the truth�s been replaced by a two-network deal?

(How'd I do, Alfred?)

Later,






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 25

                        Satellite Tracking Reference

From: Brian Cuthbertson <brianc@freeside.fc.net>
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 14:22:29 -0600 (CST)
Fwd Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 11:24:54 -0500
Subject: Satellite Tracking Reference


Folks,

Since satellites can often be the source of erroneous UFO
reports, I submit the follwing web page as a reference for
any UFO researcher.  Perhaps it will occasionally help in
separating the wheat from the chaff when reports come in.

This comes from an email list (other than updates!) to
which I subscribe.

-Brian Cuthbertson

==========================================================


Site du Jour of the Day (990125)
January 25, 1999


SatPasses
Satellite Passes Over North American Cities
http://www.bester.com/satpasses.html

Bester Tracking Systems
Emeryville, California, USA



In the thirty years since the space race heated up, ground based
observers have had the pleasure of seeing or listening to
man-made objects passing overhead. Russian technology held the
world in awe as Sputnik beeped and blinked for an audience of
millions. Who can forget the anticipation of being creamed by
Skylab during its last failing orbits? Today there are several
distinct satellites visible with the naked eye, binoculars or
telescopes, and Bester Tracking Systems has data available for
such observations from major North American cities at this site.
Included are Shuttle Missions (once up), Russia's Space Station
Mir, International Space Station, Hubble Space Telescope,
Compton Gamma Ray Observatory, Upper Atmosphere Research
Satellite, Ocean Remote Sensing Satellite Seasat and the
Tropical Rainfall Measuring Mission. For people living outside
of North America, the Visual Satellite Observer's Home Page
(http://www.satellite.eu.org/sat/vsohp/satintro.html) produced
by Jeff Hunt, Neil Clifford and Bart De Pontieu is an alternate
resource with many international pointers and options.


Ed


Visit the Site du Jour of the Day Archives at
(http://members.tripod.com/~SdJotD/)

If you would like to start receiving Site du Jour of the Day
send your request to (ejp@peganet.com) with SdJotD as the
subject. To stop receiving it send the text "86SdJotD" to the
same address.

Copyright 1999 Edward J. Pelegrino. All rights reserved but may
be forwarded for non-commercial purposes. Thanks.





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 25

                Re: Santilli Knew 'Tent Footage' Was a Fraud?

From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net>
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 16:13:37 -0800
Fwd Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 11:29:43 -0500
Subject: Re: Santilli Knew 'Tent Footage' Was a Fraud?



>Subject: Re: Santilli Knew 'Tent Footage' Was a Fraud?
>From: Bob Shell <bob@bobshell.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>


>I was being polite when I said barns were rare.  I've never seen
>one in New Mexico either.  A few small sheds used for storage
>and such, but never a real barn.

>>PS: By coincidence, the two times I stopped in Roswell were both
>>Sunday evenings .. separated by an interval of almost exactly
>>twenty years!   Each time I asked where I could get a beer, and
>>some kid working at a burger joint looked as puzzled as if I had
>>asked for directions to the Eiffel Tower.

>They don't sell beer in burger joints here in Virginia, either.
>You gotta go to a bar.

>Bob

That's what I was asking, where's the nearest beer joint or bar.

Both times the guy I asked looked completely stumped.
Is Roswell dry?    ..on Sundays at least?

-  Larry Hatch







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 25

                           Santilli's Film Scraps

From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@YorkU.CA>
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 19:19:05 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time)
Fwd Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 11:33:10 -0500
Subject: Santilli's Film Scraps


Greetings everyone.

Last night I continued to read "The Aliens and the Scalpel", a
newly published book by Dr. Roger K. Leir.

In 1997 Reg Presley arranged a meeting with Ray Santilli for
Roger Leir and Derrel Sims.

At this meeting a proposal was made to Ray to allow them to have
the original Alien Autopsy film analyzed at a top research lab
so that the age of film could be known.  Although Ray did not
give an answer to their proposal at this meeting, Roger and
Derrel did get film scraps which Reg obtained from Ray.

In his book Roger mentions that "Results from the film analysis
have now been obtained, as of this writing in August, 1998, but
we cannot release the results here due to a prior agreement with
Santilli."

Once Ray knows that the film scraps can be dated conclusively,
let us hope that permission will be given to also have the
actual Alien Autopsy film analyzed by the same top research lab.

Until this happens, we have too many good reasons to doubt that
the Alien Autopsy film actually dates from the 1940's.

Nick Balaskas






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 25

                            UFO*BC Website Update

From: David Pengilly - UFO*BC <david_pengilly@dccnet.com>
Date: 24 Jan 1999 20:22:56 -0800
Fwd Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 11:40:11 -0500
Subject: UFO*BC Website Update

We have recently updated our website - http://ufobc.org
The following items are linked from our Homepage, under
"What's New"

1) "The Yukon Report"
 - Due to all the hard work by Martin Jasek and Lorraine Bretlyn
in Whitehorse, we have created a separate subweb for the Yukon.

2) "Small Flying Triangle Over Lake Laberge, Yukon"
 - report by Dennis Stitt and Martin Jasek
 - Is Exotic Propulsion Technology Being Tested in Canada's
   North?

3) "West Vancouver and Beyond"
 - report by Bill Oliver
 - One witness, three excellent sightings.

4) Recently Reported Sightings
 - all the sightings from the last few months

5) "Just Passing Through"
 - report by Graham Conway
 - excellent article about meteors/bolides/fireballs

6) "Buffalo Mutilation Incident"
 - report by Don Vanden Hoorn
 - First Buffalo Mutilation ever reported?

7) UFO*BC Quarterly - Winter 99
 - Our latest issue has just been printed, with improved
graphics and a glossy cover! Visit our UFO*BC Store and
have a look at the cover page and index. Available from
select stores in the Vancouver and Whitehorse areas or
order directly from us. $5 per issue.

***********************************************************

If you do not want to receive these updates, please reply
with your e-mail address and I will gladly remove your name
from the list. Thank you.

Dave Pengilly
dave@ufobc.org





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 25

                Re: 'Osiris's Grave' Detected Near Sphinx By

From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@get2net.dk>
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 06:33:46 +0100 (MET)
Fwd Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 11:47:33 -0500
Subject: Re: 'Osiris's Grave' Detected Near Sphinx By


On Mon, 25 Jan 1999, stig.agermose@get2net.dk wrote:

>Posted by : stig.agermose@get2net.dk

>Source: EkstraBladet (Danish daily), in my own translation.

>Stig

I became so enthusiastic that I forgot that I was writing with a
Danish character set. The name of the Lord Chamberlain
(mentioned at the end) is:






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 25

                             Re: Keeping Secrets

From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 11:44:08 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 11:44:08 -0500
Subject: Re: Keeping Secrets

        ::
:
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 23:26:59 EST
To: Updates@Globalserve.net
:
Subject: Keeping Secrets
:
:
:

Jim Mortellaro wrote:

>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
>Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 12:14:52 EST
>Fwd Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 08:51:03 -0500
>Subject: Keeping Secrets

<snip>

>I was, in 1970, working on a project called NAGS.  This was the
>acronym for Naval Advanced Guidance System.  It was one of the
>means by which a Polaris Poseiden warhead would guide itself
>towards target(s), as these were MIRV or multiple warheads.

>The security at the facility was very, very strict. You needed a
>top secret clearance just to get into the work area.  And that
>work area was guarded 24 hours a day.  Beyond the human
>security, you needed a special badge and code access to get
>thru the door.

>If there was anything about this project that was critical, it
>was security.  About three months after I became one of the
>Electro-Optics engineers on the project, and after numerous
>security briefings by the military, by the project management,
>by the company reps, by everybody, an article appeared in
>Aviation Week and Space Technology which outlined _exactly_ what
>this project was all about ...

That's why it's called "Aviation Leak".

>... including the top secret portions, which threatened corporeal
>[sic] punishment and a cruel death to anyone on the project
>who leaked information, even by accident.

Does Mr. Mortellaro expect us to take this statement at face value,
or is it a joke?  "Corporal punishment and a cruel death" for
accidental leaking of information?

Jim, can you cite one single documented instance in which
punishments such as this have been authorized or applied in the
United States of America?  I'm obviously not talking about the
Rosenberg spy case, or the execution of NAZI agents during World
War II. Please be specific with as many examples as you can find,
or cite the applicable section of U.S. law authorizing such things.

On the other hand, just since the end of the Cold War there have
been a number of widely publicized real spy cases involving even
such things as our wartime nuclear target list and sub operations
codes where people have received prison terms.  None have
received "corporeal punishment" or "cruel deaths".  The old KGB,
on the other hand, was rumored to have thrown Soviet citizens who
were our double agents, alive, into a basement furnace at Lubyanka
Prison in Moscow.

Bob Young






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 25

                           Re: 'Eprime' In Action

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 01:16:35 EST
Fwd Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 11:53:33 -0500
Subject: Re: 'Eprime' In Action


>From: John W. Ratcliff <jratcliff@worldnet.att.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: 'Eprime' In Action
>Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 00:33:44 -0600

>In some message I posted on UFO UpDates a while back, I made
>disparaging remarks which included Jeff Rense of
><www.sightings.com> fame. A few members of the peanut gallery,
>lurkers all, e-mailed me grand huzzah's for calling Hoagland to
>task, but tsked, tsked, me for including Rense with that hoary
>horde of paranormal pontificators. While Jeff Rense probably is
>fairly rational in real life, the fact remains that his web site
>continues to sponsor articles about speech reversals, and other
>irrational nonsense, thus thrusting him into the category of
>'part of the problem' rather than 'part of the solution.'

<snip>

>But, _why_, _why_, if someone has this kind of an experience do
>they immediately endow this experience with such awe, reverence,
>and unbridled belief? Quit their jobs, start up web sites,
>destroy their lives all following the unproven claims perceived
>through a visionary experience? Perhaps it's time to be less
>skeptical of the contactee and a bit more skeptical of the
>contactor?


Hello John, List....

I feel compelled to write a form of rebuttal to some of your
opinions. For example, When it comes to the Virgin Mary and
Rense, I am a stalwart supporter of both.

Now, I don't think Jeff will like the company I just thrust him
into. However my intentions are honorable if not ludicrously
impious.

Jeff is in the business of interviewing folks. Most of those
folks are in the news, if you will allow the liberty, the news
which we find ourselves into... goblins, reverse speech,
goulies, aliens, abductees, people who think the world is coming
to an end and even those who actually "know it." As such, one
must presume that Rense must provide a forum for their opinions.
This he does quite admirably, giving everyone an opportunity to
voice an opinion or three.

Where Jeff Rense makes a difference is in the manner in which he
conducts his interviews. The rest is a requirement of the
venue... one would assume... God I hate those words, "presume
and assume!"

So in defense of Rense (did you notice these rhyme? Could it be,
verily, that I have contracted a case of Lehmbergitis? Nah! I
aint that good.) Anyway, so in defense of Rense, it is in his
gentlemanly manner and not the stuff of his guest's appraisals
of God, the Universe and Everything, which make him the mensch
he is and further, bring so many to his defense.

In the case of Mary, the Mother of Jesus.... well, no comment.
Except that excess should be avoided at all costs, no matter
the matter...

Except of course... where _GRIPPLE_ is concerned....

Drink and make merry, for tomorrow we die of comet debris.
If you listen to _my_ reverse speech, you will find this...

I said, "Rense is not tense!"

In reverse, it goes, "Drink Gripple and dence!"

Dr. G speaks in a kind of ethnic South Manhattan Hebrew.
So "DENSE" actually means, "DANCE!"

Dr. Jaime Gesundt





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 25

                      Re: Area 51 - The Alien Interview

From: Michel M. Deschamps <ufoman@ican.net>
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 01:54:32 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 12:02:50 -0500
Subject: Re: Area 51 - The Alien Interview

>>From: Michel M. Deschamps <ufoman@ican.net>
>>To: <updates@globalserve.net>
>>Subject: Area 51 - The Alien Interview
>>Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 12:02:51 -0500

>>To Errol & List,

>>I would like to know the date when the special 'Area 51 - The
>>Alien Interview' was aired.

>Michel,

>Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 13:52:12 -0500
>To: "UFO UpDates Subscribers":;
>From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: UFO UpDate: Re: Area 51 - The Alien Interview


>From: Moderator, UFO UpDates -  Toronto

>A trip to The UpDates Archive (There are almost 16,000 posts to
>UpDates there - URL below) and use of the search engine produced
>the following - and _anyone_ can do it <VBG>:


To Errol & list,

The copy of the 'Alien Interview' that I have has the
introduction:  'You Are Watching DirecTV'.

Would anyone know when DirecTV aired the video with "Victor" in
shadow?  Does this DirecTV ring a bell with anyone?

All I need is the date so that I can label the tape. Any help
would be greatly appreciated.

Michel M. Deschamps
----------





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 25

              Re: Angel Hair, Illness And Weather Modification

From: Christophe Meessen <meessen@mailclub.net>
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 09:24:54 +0100
Fwd Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 12:15:14 -0500
Subject: Re: Angel Hair, Illness And Weather Modification

Hello,

>If anyone has any further info on these or other angel hair
>cases, please contact me at devilsad@ksinc.net ,as a friend of
>mine (Brian Boldman) is very interested in the angel hair
>phenomenon and has been investigating it for a number of years.

We are currently investigating a case where something very
similar to 'Angel Hair' fell from the sky.  The 'Angel Hair'
would not evaporate with hand contact. But it did disappear from
the environ after 2 days.

The witness collected samples (in '96) and we are currently
analysing them. We already have MEB pictures. We are now trying
to get it's chemical composition.

There are very light and sticky but also look like a stable
material. It would not be altered in vacuum down to 2 10^-6 Mb.
We checked it before putting it in the MEB. It looks like it is
not a conductor and the MEB operator said it has the same
properties as organic material. We still wait for chemical
analysis for more solid information.

MEB showed a spider string like structure (0.1 micro meter
diameter) but associated in thick bundles which are then
visible. Filaments have regular and circular sections, surface
looked smooth.

A particularly unusual phenomen that the witness reported was
the presence of an unconventional rainbow. It was not oriented
like normal rainbow, but was horizontal. The circle's center was
above his head. With blue color inside the circle.

This phenomenon is under investigation by a physicist. Things
look to be in pretty good shape there too.

We found that spider thread is the most similar structure we
know, we would be very interested in any related information you
might have on similar phenomenoa. If this might be a chemical
effect, some hints on it's nature might help our researchers in
their testing.

What we are studying may differ to what is reported in your web
pages, but it would be a good help learn how to spot the
difference between these phenomena. And if some spiders are
behind some 'Angel Hair' cases, it would be good if we can
clearly identify those cases.

Any info would be welcome.





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 25

             Re: Firmage: Statement Regarding Stephens-Hoagland

From: Judith Dale <judithdale@earthlink.net>
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 01:05:08 -0800
Fwd Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 12:25:08 -0500
Subject: Re: Firmage: Statement Regarding Stephens-Hoagland

>From: Joe Firmage <jfirmage@uswebcks.com>
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Statement Regarding Stephens-Hoagland
>Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 22:46:32 -0800


Joe Firmage wrote:

>Hello everyone,

>We have been presented in the past few weeks with a spectacle
>remarkable even on the scale of the ridiculousness common to
>UFOlogy. Robert Stephens emerged some months ago and began to
>share some provocative information concerning the subject of
>UFOs. He was about to be engaged in a debate on Art Bell's radio
>program covering 200 questions concerning claims made by Richard
>Hoagland, when his participation was cut from the air. In the
>midst of the firestorm of debate that followed, he bowed out in
>a "confession" that labelled himself a "Fraud". Many have said,
>with some justification, that Stephens' final radio comments
>were somewhat disjointed, though others have reported that he
>was particularly cogent in his other appearances. In any case,
>he has taken his agenda to the written word, and is publishing
>the "200 questions" he's been talking about.

>Whether you agree with Stephens' tactics or not, his points are
>well grounded, and this is a critical issue and must be
>addressed for the health of our movement. I thank him for his
>diligence and courage to confront our weaknesses. Those of us
>who seriously study the UFO issue are convinced that it is the
>most important single question facing humanity at this moment in
>time. It is far too important to have the entire UFO community
>subjected to derision from Hoagland's unchallenged and
>unsupportable claims.

After reading Joe's comments above, I felt compelled to add my
voice to his in support of Robert Stephens. I admit to being
quite new myself to the world of Ufology, via the Web. Although,
the subject itself is not new to me, my current interest was
piqued after listening to the personal experiences of close
friends.

I am a Psychiatric/Mental Nurse, and as I listened to my friends
tell me of their experiences, I was struck by the very long
lasting impact these experiences have had on their lives. I
found myself hearing of experiences  that were intensely
traumatic in nature. I realized then, that many of their
feelings, behaviors, and thoughts were indicative of people with
Post Traumatic Stress Disorder. I became terribly concerned
about the nature of their experiences. As my  research has led
me through the Web, I've noticed how many others are suffering
from PTSD following traumatic encounter experiences. This
troubles me greatly. I've thought about what seems to be going
on, and decided it does not often bode well for us humans. I
realize that there are some people who've had experiences that
were, perhaps, not traumatic. In fact, it seems that some have
found their experiences to be powerfully life changing in many
positive ways, but these appear to be the minority.

My Web explorations took me to Richard Hoagland's site. As I
read the many pages, I was struck by two thoughts. The first was
that this man truly believes this stuff, and the second was that
the connections he made between events and ideas seemed,
perhaps, paranoid and somewhat delusional. Yet, there was his
forum, for anyone to happen upon. Further, he was speaking
publicly, via the airwaves, about his theories. I found this
frightening. I thought, this man is perpetuating more trauma on
those who've already been wounded. I didn't like what I heard.

Now, I've also come upon sites by many who provide information
that seems sound and helpful. I've also heard many speak,  and
present information via the airwaves that is sound and helpful.
When I first heard Robert Stephens speak, I thought, now this
guy is saying something important, I've not heard this before.
He was certainly coherent, and made great sense. I believe he
has much to offer this field of Ufology, and I am particularly
interested to see the questions he will present for Richard
Hoagland to answer. I've not spoken personally with Robert
Stephens, but we  have email dialogue. I've found his answers to
my questions to be helpful, clear, and thoughtful. I will only
comment thus on the fast fury of words that have flown over the
wires of the Net, how disturbing at this crucial time, that
there has been so much vehemence and attack. Let's not shoot
this messenger.

Thank you for your attention.
Cordially,
Judith Dale, RN, C





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 25

                           Re: UFO Communication?

From: Brian Straight <brians@mdbs.com>
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 09:42:19 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 12:34:56 -0500
Subject: Re: UFO Communication?


>From: Rick Goldsmith <rgoldsm@synapse.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: UFO Communication?
>Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 23:49:26 -0500


Rick --

Here's a quote from the Minidisc page FAQ:

Recordable MD's are similar, but a pre-groove replaces the pits
and valleys and an MO coating replaces the aluminum one. When
recording, a laser is focused from one side of the disc onto the
pre-groove and heats a spot on the MO recording layer to its
Curie point while a magnetic field from a head in contact with
the other side of the disc aligns magnetic dipoles within (read
magnetizes) the heated spot on the MO layer (the N/S orientation
corresponding to 0s and 1s in the data). During playback the MD
machine focuses the laser on the pre-groove again, but at lower
power, and the data is read back by measuring changes in
polarization of light reflected from the previously magnetized
regions (the Faraday effect).

Hope this helps.

Brian









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 25

                           Global Crisis Solutions

From: Philip Mantle <pmquest@dial.pipex.com>
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 20:30:29 +0000
Fwd Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 12:40:18 -0500
Subject: Global Crisis Solutions


David Crockett Williams writes:

Please help me pass the word about the upcoming Global Crisis
Solutions Conference at the Alumni House at UC Berkeley, Monday,
March 1, 1999.

This event, and its promotion, are to bring important
information to general public attention via the major media on
issues like ending: The nuclear threat, war and terrorism,
global warming and ozone layer depletion, the casualties of the
Drug War, and the corporate/government media information
control.

Speakers will present scientific and spiritual perspectives on
the nature and scope of the problems and solutions associated
with today's global social and environmental emergency,
including the cannabis/hemp/marijuana situation, the lately
confessed CIA involvement in drug smuggling, stopping the
development of new weapons of mass destruction, new
revolutionary energy technologies to replace nuclear and fossil
fuel power, and the spiritual reawakening necessary to guide
humanity through these times of great change.

Speakers will include Chris Conrad, Dr. Brian O'Leary, Michael
C. Ruppert, David Crockett Williams, Dr. Fred Wood, and Rev.
Yusen Yamato.

The conference will be a benefit fundraiser for the Global Peace
Walk 1999-2000 which will be carrying the "survival issue"
messages presented there to the United Nations and to
Washington, DC, as part of its campaign for Global Peace Zone
2000 by fostering acceptance of its prayer for "Global Peace
Now!" as a universal human resolve.

Thanks. Email me for more details or see:
  <http://www.angelfire.com/on/GEAR2000>

*********************************************************
Global Emergency Alert Response: GEAR2000
David Crockett Williams        805-822-3309
20411 Steeple Court, Tehachapi CA 93561 USA
*********************************************************
    CAMPAIGN for a BETTER AMERICA
       with General Agency Services
*********************************************************
   UNITED NATION  Global Peace Walk
Oakland to Berkeley, Friday, February 26, 1999
Annually:  22apr Taos, NM, --- Santa Fe 26apr
1999: 16sep New York -Washington DC 24oct
2000: 15jan San Francisco --New York 24oct
      12feb Santa Barbara, 22feb Los Angeles
      22apr Taos, NM, 16sep Washington, DC
  ONE NATION, Aware of God as Love for All !
    GLOBAL PEACE NOW !!   Help Now !!!
*********************************************************
http://www.egroups.com/list/global-peace-walk





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 25

             Re: Firmage: Statement Regarding Stephens-Hoagland

From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 10:22:36 +0000
Fwd Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 12:44:35 -0500
Subject: Re: Firmage: Statement Regarding Stephens-Hoagland


>From: Joe Firmage <jfirmage@uswebcks.com>
>Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 22:46:32 -0800
>Fwd Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 09:48:53 -0500
>Subject: Firmage: Statement Regarding Stephens-Hoagland


>If this domain cannot police itself, then it doesn't deserve to
>be trusted with astoundingly far-reaching and fundamental data.
>Let us commit ourselves to truth, plain and simple.

>J O S E P H    F I R M A G E
>Founder & Chairman
>______________________________________

>International Space Sciences Organization

Okay. Here's the truth, plain and simple:

You are in this to make money.


R O G E R   E V A N S
Founder & Chairman
__________________________________________






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 25

                          Re: PROJECT GUFONE Search

From: Marc Bell <MARC@wufog.freeserve.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 16:15:28 -0000
Fwd Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 12:47:10 -0500
Subject: Re: PROJECT GUFONE Search


>Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 03:24:42 +1100
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>From: Mike Farrell <mikefarr@midcoast.com.au>
>Subject: PROJECT GUFONE Search

<snip>

>'MILLENNIUM TV-THE BIG END'  (UK-JAN.10)

>The BBC is currently filming a a seven episode TV series
>"Millennium TV- The Big End". It's the first program being shown
>on Sunday 27 December on UK national TV. It's expected that the
>program on cattle mutilations will be shown on Sunday, 10 Jan.

<snip>

Hi

Does anyone know when this will actually be screened now, or
what happened to it on the 10th Jan?

All the best,

Marc Bell (WUFORG)





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 25

                Re: Santilli Knew 'Tent Footage' Was a Fraud?

From: Bob Shell <bob@bobshell.com>
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 11:41:52 +0000
Fwd Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 12:50:06 -0500
Subject: Re: Santilli Knew 'Tent Footage' Was a Fraud?


>From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
>Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 12:09:27 +0000
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: Santilli Knew 'Tent Footage' Was a Fraud?

>If this info is correct, here we see that Santilli dealt with 15
>cans of undeveloped film. In addition, Santilli uses the terms
>"processing of the reels" and "development of the film" within
>the same context.

>I don't think for a minute he was talking about "transfer" to
>video.


Ray Santilli did have access to developing for old film.

There was a Kodak cartridge of old film which Mike Hesemann
bought from a lady in Roswell which was supposed to contain
images of the crash site.  It was unprocessed film.

Unfortunately, Mike gave it to Ray for processing, and later
got back a short portion of the film.  The part which had
actually gone through the camera was missing from what Ray
returned to Mike, and has never been accounted for.

I submitted the portion which had been processed to Eastman
Kodak for identification, and they verified that it had been
correctly developed, and from the edge markings and sprocket
spacing (which changed at several points) positively
identified it as 1945 production.

I still wonder what happened to the beginning of that film.

Bob






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 25

                         Re: Santilli's Film Scraps

From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 12:28:32 +0000
Fwd Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 12:53:50 -0500
Subject: Re: Santilli's Film Scraps


>From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@YorkU.CA>
>Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 19:19:05 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time)
>Fwd Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 11:33:10 -0500
>Subject: Santilli's Film Scraps

Previously, Nick offered:

>In 1997 Reg Presley arranged a meeting with Ray Santilli for
>Roger Leir and Derrel Sims.

>At this meeting a proposal was made to Ray to allow them to have
>the original Alien Autopsy film analyzed at a top research lab
>so that the age of film could be known.  Although Ray did not
>give an answer to their proposal at this meeting, Roger and
>Derrel did get film scraps which Reg obtained from Ray.

<snip>

>Once Ray knows that the film scraps can be dated conclusively,
>let us hope that permission will be given to also have the
>actual Alien Autopsy film analyzed by the same top research lab.

Hi Nick,

Actually, analyzing the scraps means nothing. We have only
Santilli's word that they come from the actual film. But the
notion that he seemed willing to deface his original artifact,
even if only from the film's end, is to me quite suspect.

Think about it: For years, scientists had wanted to test just a
snippet of the Shroud of Turin, but the church would not allow
it. (ultimately, they relented; it was found to be bogus)

Likewise, if you had possession of a valuable piece of film,
would you want to destroy even a frame of it? If one's concern
was to validate the film, would it not make more sense to
accompany the film to the lab in question where they could
quickly and effeciently determine its origin without the need to
"snip" anything? I'd think Santilli would be quite eager to have
such evidence on his side.

Everything that Santilli has done regarding verification of his
claims has been counter-intuitive. He simply does not want the
truth to be learned.

Later,

Roger Evans






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 25

                              Stephens-Firmage

From: Jeff Rense <eotl@west.net>
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 02:44:48 -0800 (PST)
Fwd Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 13:03:29 -0500
Subject: Stephens-Firmage

Hi Errol...

I've posted all of Robert Stephen's '200 Hoagland Interview
Questions'...and the surprise introduction by Joseph
Firmage...at the top of my homepage. There is a large banner
there.

It will be interesting to see how, or if, Richard chooses to
respond, and to watch how the community reacts to such a
provocative and unprecendented list of queries, which, at times,
are searing to say the least.

There are several revelations including: Joe Firmage's financial
underwriting of some of Hoagland's past research, and the
statement by Stephens that families of the dead Heaven's Gate
cult members might be assembling a massive lawsuit against Art
Bell and Richard Hoagland.

It's quite a read.





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 25

                      Re: Area 51 - The Alien Interview

From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 10:50:04 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 13:06:35 -0500
Subject: Re: Area 51 - The Alien Interview


>From: Michel M. Deschamps <ufoman@ican.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: Area 51 - The Alien Interview
>Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 01:54:32 -0500

>To Errol & list,

>The copy of the 'Alien Interview' that I have has the
>introduction:  'You Are Watching DirecTV'.

>Would anyone know when DirecTV aired the video with "Victor" in
>shadow?  Does this DirecTV ring a bell with anyone?

>All I need is the date so that I can label the tape. Any help
>would be greatly appreciated.

>Michel M. Deschamps


Michael-

I suspect that DirecTV refers to the satellite television
company through which the original was recorded.

Is your video of the entire 'Alien Interview' program (which was
sold through the mail), or the program 'Strange Universe' which
was referenced in the post that Errol mentioned?

To my knowledge, the entire 'Alien Interview' was never shown on
television, and the 'Strange Universe' show was designed to hype
it and sell more copies.

Steve






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 25

               Re: Strange Goings-On At Roswell International

From: Moderator, UFO UpDates - Toronto
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 13:24:40 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 13:24:40 -0500
Subject: Re: Strange Goings-On At Roswell International




From: Wendy Connors <ProjectSign@EMAIL.MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: IUFOMRC (UFO Museum in Roswell)
To: CURRENT-ENCOUNTERS@LISTSERV.AOL.COM

Greetings to the Lists:

The following was sent to me from Faeylyn Wylder the former
webmaster of the museum's website.

Wendy Connors

---------------------------

Would you mind forwarding this to those who read it? I wanted to
clear up the matter of the payment on the domain name:)

In the recent editorial by Jim Chambers, is mentioned the fact
that I had paid for the IUFOMRC domain name. Given the very
confusing series of events, it is easily misunderstood. I was
asked to pay for the domain registration with my credit card,
which I did, and the museum reimbursed me at a later date.

The following is my own recounting of what happened, so as not
to leave anyone with the wrong impression regarding the
IUFOMRC's actions - - which have been with careless indifference
given the best construction.

In brief, The International UFO Museum and Research Center in
Roswell, NM has procured a website that I created and have
valued at $300,000.00, including 3003 original pieces of art, 5
major site renovations, my articles, and my time, with no regard
for the agreements I had with the museum.  They are not giving
me credit for my work, they falsely represented me in a legal
InterNic document, they made false allegations about me to my
peers on the internet, and I have no rights to reclaim my
copyrighted work without a costly leagal action, as there were
no written agreements. Everything I am about to tell you can be
proven or substantiated by those involved directly, such as Deon
Crosby, Dennis Balthaser, and InterNic.

I am a professional artist, and have among other things,
designed t-shirts for Hallmark Card�s Shoebox div. I decided
that it might be a good idea to learn how to create websites,
and In 1996, Deon Crosby, the director of the International UFO
Museum and Research Center, asked me to create a site for the
museum. Deon allowed as how the museum could not pay me
anything.  I was fairly new to websmithing, and saw in it an
opportunity to make my artwork known on the internet, thereby
getting work, so I agreed to do it. Deon was explicit with me
that the site would be a collaborative effort, and that I would
retain my rights to my artwork.

In setting up the IUFOMRC online, I was asked by the museum to
put the InterNic charges on my credit card, as they did not have
one. I did so, not realizing that I would therefore become the
legal registrant of the domain name iufomrc.com . When we
realized this, I made it very clear to everyone involved, that I
held no claim on the domain name. I never tried to hide this
fact, mentioning it casually to Dennis Balthaser, and others. I
also informed Delores, the museum secretary, last October, that
InterNic would be sending a bill in January or February.

I worked over 8 hours a day on the website. Deon was very busy
at the museum, therefore, out of 300 pages on the website, 7 of
those pages contained information the museum gave me, in
addition to the Newsletters. The rest were a result of my own
research and work, which Deon or Dennis would then approve for
inclusion on the site.

As a result of the vast media attention given "Encounter 97",
the 50th anniversary of the alleged Roswell crash, the website
became very popular, linked from CNN, MSNBC, USA Today, The
Smithsonian Magazine, NPR, etc. I was awarded with the Lycos Top
5%, the Lycos Editor�s Choice, USA Today, L.A. Times, and many
other coveted awards on the internet.

Http://www.iufomrc.com/museum/credits.htm

In 1998 we were notified by Rob Mc Connell in Canada, that the
website was voted top site on the Internet in Canada and
England, and Jeff Rense of Sightings on the radio called it one
of the great sites on the net in an interview he had with Bob
Barnes.

In the Fall of 1998, Deon Crosby resigned as director of the
IUFOMRC, and the running of the museum fell into the hands of a
newly hired office manager, who proceeded to fire many key
workers. Some workers were volunteers, others were contracted,
and some were employees of the museum. I sort of fell into the
contracted agents category. By then the museum had agreed to pay
me $50.00 a week for maintaining the site. They had agreed to
$100.00 a month prior to that, and would pay me 6 months in
advance.

In late October, the library assistant and the museum operations
manager were fired, and my duties were altered. At that time I
was fairly certain I would be fired as well.  For 14 days I
waited to get a response to a very nice letter I wrote asking
for clarification of my new duties. During the 14 days I waited
to get a response, I maintained the site.  On Nov. 4, 1998, I
got a hostile call from the office manager. She did not tell me
during the call that she had removed my access from the site,
nor did she tell me that she had had all of my data from the
InterNic data base removed.

When I had discovered what happened, I called Mark Williams,
owner of The Host Pros server that the museum site was on,
asking him why he would remove all of my information from
InterNic, knowing the legal implications, as I was the legal
registrant of the domain name. I was just curious, as I had
assured the Max Littel and therefore the IUFOMRC Board, I
assumed, that I would do all I could to help transfer the
domain, and that I would never harm the site in any way.

Mark told me that the office manager had told him that my
ownership of the domain name was just one of my "little dirty
tricks" I played on the museum. As I stated previously, this was
a simple mistake, and well known to everyone involved at the
museum. As for dirty tricks, I am at a loss as to what she was
referring to. She did not know me - no one at the museum knew me
very well, many of them had no idea who I was. I just worked on
the site day in and day out. It was all I did for 3 years. If
anyone has been tricked, it was I by them. Obviously she told
Mark this to get him to do what he did, regardless, my
reputation has been sacked.

When the office manager informed me that they were getting a new
webmaster, I suggested to her, in the spirit of my agreements
with the museum that the art was mine, that she allow me to post
the site I had always had in such a case, that contained all of
the 7 pages of information the museum sent me, and the
Newsletters. That was not a malicious request. It was a backup
plan, until the new webmaster could design a new site. That is
when I was told that none of the art was mine and that the
museum had bought it for $600.00. It would be laughable if it
were not so pathetic an attempt.

At this point I called my lawyer who recommended that I call
Mark and ask him to let me post the site containing all of the
information the museum gave me. It is a nice site. Nothing wrong
with it at all. Of course he declined, but suggested that I as
the registrant of the domain name could post whatever I wanted
to at the iufomrc.com url. I declined to do that, all though
technically it was within my rights, I felt that would be
unethical in the end, and I felt that it would be better to try
and reason with the museum as to our agreements, and have them
release my work, as they should have, back to me.

January 4, 1999, the museum made a "legal name change" with
InterNic, without informing me, in spite of my assurrances to
the board and to Mark Williams, and the new webmaster, that I
would help them transfer the name.  I called InterNic to see how
this was accomplished without my being notified, as I was the
legal registrant. The legal name change involves the
registrant�s signature being notarized. I have asked for a copy
of this document from InterNic, but I have been told that they
may or may not send it to me. Seeing as how I was bypassed
concerning a legal name change involving my company name, I am
somewhat surprised that I have not rights to a copy of the
document.

Now the museum has an additional site http://www.iufomrc.org .
This site is the work of the new webmaster. He is using some of
my artwork, and my articles without any credit given to me, and
without posting my copyright. He was posting my awards and
awards that Jim Chambers and I were granted. He removed those
when asked.

I was given no other reason for my being fired other than the
"museum was making some changes".

I hope this will encourage webmasters, and people hiring them
alike, to get all of their agreements in writing. None of my
labors were worth it. I never had enough time to take any
additional work, so there have been no benefits to my 3 years of
dedicated service to the International UFO Museum and Research
Center.

I also want to state the importance of knowing that these kinds
of things can and do happen. While the InterNic domain
registration is a moot point in my own case, it is important to
know that just because one is the registrant, does not guarantee
a thing. The way InterNic is set up, it is possible for the
information to be manipulated easily - and by the time you find
out, it may be too late. In my case, the first move the museum
made was to remove my request that I be notified of any changes.
They then had Mark remove all of my data. That was in November
or December. Their final move was to change the name of my
company, UFO Lab NM to IUFOMRC, without authorization by me, as
I was not advised, nor did I sign the document - and it was
NOTARIZED that I had.  There wasn�t even an InterNic tracking
number.

More than any of the above, the thing that has mystified me more
than anything was the vehemence and blatant disregard with which
I was treated.  I do not live in Roswell, therefore my
relationship with the museum was cordially uninvolved to some
degree. I worked diligently on the website, as did Jim Chambers
for a time, to make the site the best representation of the
museum possible. We always attended to it, every day for hours,
and the site itself is proof of that.

Considering the above, I was stunned that when the axe fell the
museum board was not responsive, nor interested, nor curious as
to what my agreements were with the museum involving my work and
my efforts. It seems to me to be the height of arrogance that
they somehow think my satisfaction in doing the IUFOMRC site
alone was the sole motivator for me in devoted three years of my
life, literally to the site. Should anyone question that I am
perhaps over-stating this, I think that all who knew me and
worked with me would say I may be understating it.

I think in the end, all we have are our oaths, and our honor is
measured by our willingness to uphold our agreements. I more
than upheld my end of the agreement, and in the end was not even
given a decent reason for being fired. I have to assume that the
International UFO Museum and Research Center as a whole
condones, if not encourages, the unethical acts that have been
taken against me and others, considering their indifference. The
other construction is, of course, that they did not know any
better. I did my best to inform them.

Sincerely,
Faeylyn Wylder

Subj: For the record
Date: 99-01-22 14:23:07 EST
From: Ufolab NM

>Sorry guys - just saw a mistake! Please forward this letter if
you have not already forwarded the other. I said "I" was awarded
the top lycos award, etc. I had meant to say "*It* was awarded"
referring to the site. This is not an accurate statement. The
site was not awarded. It was my work and Jim's that was awarded.
Therefore, it needs to read Jim Chambers and I were awarded,
which I have now corrected. Sorry Jim - an honest typo!





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 25

                -=[For The Record]=- P-47: Greenwood On MJ-12

From: Jan Aldrich <jan@CYBERZONE.NET>
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 21:43:56 -0800
Fwd Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 13:33:40 -0500
Subject: -=[For The Record]=- P-47: Greenwood On MJ-12


The MJ-12 Saga Continues, Greenwood Addresses New MJ-12
Documents In The Next UHR

Once again, extraordinary claims are being made involving
a number of documents shoved into Tim Cooper's mail box.
These second generation MJ-12 document highly promoted by
Dr. Robert Wood and his son attract new people to the MJ-12
morass. The Woods claim that by looking at the content of the
documents they can determine the authenticity of the material.
Provenance is irrelevant to these proponents.

The Pope once sent Charlemagne a letter from St. Peter. By this
time, Charlemagne was no longer the gapping mouth youth, who on
foot had lead the Pope's mount as a token of respect.
Charlemagne had ordered all communications with the Pope
carefully recorded and worded since the Pope would exploit
anything that seem favorable to Rome to the greatest possible
extent.

Today no one believes that St. Peter's letter originated in
heaven, although you still find some scholars who claim that
another document popular at the time, "The Donations of
Constantine" is still a valid document. Even the scholars who
make such claims do not, as the Woods do, claim that there is
no valid criticism of their document. All doubt has been
answered about the MJ-12 documents, or so we are to believe.

So while most of ufology does not yet accept the extravagant
claims for the new MJ-12 documents, there are many new people
who find these documents compelling. The documents are actively
promoted on Art Bell and on other radio shows, and on the
Internet.

Barry Greenwood will devote the next UFO Historical Revue to
problems and flaws in the new MJ-12 documents. It will probably
be in the mail next week.

UHR, P. O. Box 176, Stoneham, MA 02180, $15/year US, $20/year
outside the US.

--
Jan Aldrich
Project 1947
http://www.iufog.org/project1947/
P. O. Box 391, Canterbury, CT 06331, USA
Telephone: (860) 546-9135





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 25

                Re: Santilli Knew 'Tent Footage' Was a Fraud?

From: Bob Shell <bob@bobshell.com>
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 13:06:57 +0000
Fwd Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 16:12:38 -0500
Subject: Re: Santilli Knew 'Tent Footage' Was a Fraud?


>From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>To: "UFO UpDates Subscribers":;
>Subject: UFO UpDate: Re: Santilli Knew 'Tent Footage' Was a Fraud?
>Date: Mon, Jan 25, 1999, 4:29 PM

>That's what I was asking, where's the nearest beer joint or bar.

>Both times the guy I asked looked completely stumped.
>Is Roswell dry?    ..on Sundays at least?

>-  Larry Hatch



Sorry, I'm no help on this. I almost never drink alcohol. I'm
more of a root beer kinda guy!!

Bob





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 25

                             Re: Keeping Secrets

From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 13:14:46 +0000
Fwd Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 16:09:36 -0500
Subject: Re: Keeping Secrets


>From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
>Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 11:44:08 -0500
>Fwd Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 11:44:08 -0500
>Subject: Re: Keeping Secrets

>>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
>>Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 12:14:52 EST
>>Fwd Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 08:51:03 -0500
>>Subject: Keeping Secrets

Previously, Jim had written:

>>I was, in 1970, working on a project called NAGS.  This was the
>>acronym for Naval Advanced Guidance System.  It was one of the
>>means by which a Polaris Poseiden warhead would guide itself
>>towards target(s), as these were MIRV or multiple warheads.

>>The security at the facility was very, very strict. You needed a
>>top secret clearance just to get into the work area.

<snip>

>>... including the top secret portions, which threatened corporeal
>>[sic] punishment and a cruel death to anyone on the project
>>who leaked information, even by accident.

Bob responds:

>Does Mr. Mortellaro expect us to take this statement at face value,
>or is it a joke?  "Corporal punishment and a cruel death" for
>accidental leaking of information?

>Jim, can you cite one single documented instance in which
>punishments such as this have been authorized or applied in the
>United States of America?  I'm obviously not talking about the
>Rosenberg spy case, or the execution of NAZI agents during World
>War II. Please be specific with as many examples as you can find,
>or cite the applicable section of U.S. law authorizing such things.

Hi Bob,

Have you taken a look at the title of this thread? It's called
"Keeping Secrets". It isn't titled "Public Acknowledgement of
Wrong Doing by the Government".

You ask for documentation about something that you _know_ would
be secret in the first place! Then you back up your logic,
citing that such extreme actions are not the known policy of the
US Government so they couldn't possibly happen which, in your
mind, accounts for the original lack of requested documentation.

Talk about circular logic...

It's like saying that murder is illegal, therefore murder must
not exist. Or that an attempted rape did not happen because the
victim can't provide evidence to back up her claim since she was
alone.

Is it really your contention that the US Government never does
anything illegal, never breaks laws, has never had anyone
silenced simply because "known policy" says otherwise? Do you
really believe that the government even bothers to make all of
its policies known to the public? Or that they would publicly
acknowledge hurting anyone one, if not forced to? Do you really
believe everything the Government tells you?

If not, then why? Certainly lying is not part of "normal policy"
so they must be telling the truth. Right?

Where do you think the term "clandestine operations" comes from?

Or have you never heard of IRAN-CONTRA? Or the happless soldiers
used in LSD experimentation? Or Agent Orange? Or the plight of
radiation victims near the A-Bomb test sites?

Jeepers, Bob. I don't know what country you live in, but it sure
sounds swell. Can I move there, too? Your government is
obviously more honest than mine.

Later,

Roger Evans






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 25

                         Re: Santilli's Film Scraps

From: Bob Shell <bob@bobshell.com>
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 13:09:43 +0000
Fwd Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 16:14:39 -0500
Subject: Re: Santilli's Film Scraps


>From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>To: "UFO UpDates Subscribers":;
>Subject: UFO UpDate: Santilli's Film Scraps
>Date: Mon, Jan 25, 1999, 4:33 PM

>Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 19:19:05 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time)
>From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@YorkU.CA>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Santilli's Film Scraps

>Greetings everyone.

>Last night I continued to read "The Aliens and the Scalpel", a
>newly published book by Dr. Roger K. Leir.

>In 1997 Reg Presley arranged a meeting with Ray Santilli for
>Roger Leir and Derrel Sims.
>
>At this meeting a proposal was made to Ray to allow them to have
>the original Alien Autopsy film analyzed at a top research lab
>so that the age of film could be known.  Although Ray did not
>give an answer to their proposal at this meeting, Roger and
>Derrel did get film scraps which Reg obtained from Ray.

Actually, those film scraps came from Philip Mantle, via Reg,
and are from the same strip as the samples I have.  They are
copy film, not camera original, and therefore meaningless.

>In his book Roger mentions that "Results from the film analysis
>have now been obtained, as of this writing in August, 1998, but
>we cannot release the results here due to a prior agreement with
>Santilli."

All they can tell is what we already know, the copy film is pre-
1955 in origin.





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 25

                             Re: Keeping Secrets

From: Scott Carr <sardonica@erols.com>
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 13:12:04 -0800
Fwd Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 16:24:13 -0500
Subject: Re: Keeping Secrets


>From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
>Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 23:26:59 EST
>To: Updates@Globalserve.net
>Subject: Keeping Secrets

>Does Mr. Mortellaro expect us to take this statement at face
>value, or is it a joke?  "Corporal punishment and a cruel
>death" for accidental leaking of information?

>Jim, can you cite one single documented instance in which
>punishments such as this have >been authorized or applied in the
>United States of America?

I certainly do not claim to be an expert, or even overly
knowledgeable about the government or the military's actual
policy of punishment for misuse of information. But one example
which I have personally witnessed is the simple fact that the
warning signs at the military border of Area 51 clearly state
"Use of deadly force authorized." I understanding that
trespassing on govt. property, and revealing classified
information are two different things, but surely they both stem
from a desire for secrecy?

The simple fact that there is a sign which declares the right to
use deadly force should be evidence enough for the military's
position regarding the protection of their own privacy. As far
as I know, although it is authorized, deadly force has never
been used or even attempted along the border of America's most
popular secret base.

But surely, that is a distinction which is worth considering-
the authorization of such force versus the actual use of said
force.

-Scott C. Carr
Editor, The Flying Saucer Gazette
http://www.erols.com/sardonica

Producer, "UFO Desk"
99.5 FM WBAI, NY





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 25

                Re: Santilli Knew 'Tent Footage' Was a Fraud?

From: Dennis <dstacy@texas.net>
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 12:09:06 -0600 (CST)
Fwd Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 16:26:12 -0500
Subject: Re: Santilli Knew 'Tent Footage' Was a Fraud?

>Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 16:13:37 -0800
>From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Santilli Knew 'Tent Footage' Was a Fraud?

>That's what I was asking, where's the nearest beer joint or bar.

>Both times the guy I asked looked completely stumped.
>Is Roswell dry?    ..on Sundays at least?

>-  Larry Hatch



Larry,

They sure as heck weren't dry when I was there for the 50th
anniversary celebration. If they had been, Jim Mosely and I
probably wouldn't have hung around for as long as we did!

In fact, I saw several signs out front of eating establishments
advertising some sort of new drink concoction with "alien" in
the title. Seems like almost everyplace had one, to go with the
alien burgers and fries.

If I'd known barns were ultimately going to be a Roswell issue,
too, I would have paid more attention, although that probably
would have meant drinking less.

I suspect that all the barns had burned down just before Bob
Shell passed through because of a shortage of lightning rods,
although it could be more mysterious (and sinister) than that.
Maybe we'd better put Michael Hesseman on it. I suspect the
aliens are collecting barns. (You gotta put all that hybridized
wheat from the crop circles somewhere, not to mention all them
harvested animal parts.)






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 25

                           Re: 'Eprime' In Action

From: John Ratcliffe <jratcliff@att.net>
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 18:21:02 +0000
Fwd Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 16:31:40 -0500
Subject: Re: 'Eprime' In Action


>From: Jeff Rense <eotl@west.net>
>Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 10:21:08 -0800 (PST)
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: 'Eprime' In Action


I received a pleasant email message from Jeff Rense, who was
able to locate my post at it's place of origin, snuggled firmly
between my tounge and cheek.

As I said in my Eprime message, I am deriving great enjoyment
from Rense's site, his newstories are a lot of fun to read, and
updated with great frequency.  The fact that he posts them is in
and of itself not an endorsement of their claims.

Jeff assured me that he is, in fact, semi-rational in
'real-life', and I take him as his word.

Publically, I now state that I _love_ Jeff Rense, and the
<www.sightings.com> web site.  I wholly endorse it as an
excellent well to sip from when searching for a bit of
paranormal sustinence.

John W. Ratcliff
Chastised Parishoner





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 25

                  New Alleged MJ-12 Papers Also Shown To Be

From: Ed Stewart <ufoindex@jps.net>
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 10:22:31 -0800
Fwd Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 16:48:11 -0500
Subject: New Alleged MJ-12 Papers Also Shown To Be


Hello,

On 12/19/98, a short message to this list was posted on behalf
of Barry Greenwood that the new alleged MJ-12 documents
contained a fatal flaw in the contents that relegate this newest
batch to the same hoax pile its predecessors have been shown in
the past to belong.

Over the weekend, the information was in its final stages of
typing with advance copies being sent to certain individuals of
Barry Greenwood's choosing. The case for the illegitimacy of the
new alleged MJ-12 documents is being published in Barry
Greenwood's 'UFO HISTORICAL REVIEW', the publication he started
since his resignation as editor of the JUST CAUSE newsletter
early last year. As many 'oldtimers' may recall, the
illegitimacy of the original alleged MJ-12 papers was presented
and discussed in detail in that former Barry Greenwood
publication a decade ago.

You can support legitimate and objective historical research
into UFOs by subscribing to the UHR publication. I urge all
readers to support Barry Greenwood's research efforts by
subscribing to UHR.  Write to: UHR, PO Box 176, Stoneham  MA
02180, USA.  Within the United States, subscriptions are $15.00
per year, $20.00 (US Dollars) outside the US.

Also, UFO HISTORICAL REVUE appears on the CUFON web site by
exclusive arrangement with Barry Greenwood.  CUFON makes this
publication available in order to archive it and make it
available electronically, _not_ to replace in any way
subscriptions to UHR. Therefore, the issues do not appear on
CUFON until a minimum of 30 days after mailing.

The CUFON website containing past issues of UHR is:

http://www.cufon.org/uhr/uhrndx.htm

I am not connected with UHR or CUFON except for my support for
Barry Greenwood's legitimate and objective research into this
subject.

There is a good possibility that the information in the newest
UHR will be presented on this mailing list before the electronic
posting to the CUFON web site.

Ed Stewart

>Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 12:47:14 -0800
>From: Ed Stewart <ufoindex@jps.net>
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Note from Barry Greenwood

>Listmembers,

>I was asked to release the following statement by Barry
>Greenwood exactly as written. Details will be released at a
>later date at Barry's convenience.

>To whom it may concern:
>
>         --- There is a FATAL flaw in the new MJ-12 papers! ---
>
>                                      Barry Greenwood, 12/19/98

--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ed Stewart ufoindex@jps.net|So Man, who here seems principal alone,
There Is Something         |Perhaps acts second to some sphere unknown.
   Going On!       ,>'?'<, |Touches some wheel, or verges to some goal,
Salvador Freixedo  ( O O ) |'Tis but a part we see, and not a whole.
----------------ooOO-(_)-OOoo------- Alexander Pope, Essay on Man -----





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 25

                Re: Santilli Knew 'Tent Footage' Was a Fraud?

From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 13:42:59 +0000
Fwd Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 17:20:24 -0500
Subject: Re: Santilli Knew 'Tent Footage' Was a Fraud?


>From: Bob Shell <bob@bobshell.com>
>Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 11:41:52 +0000
>Fwd Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 12:50:06 -0500
>Subject: Re: Santilli Knew 'Tent Footage' Was a Fraud?

>>From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
>>Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 12:09:27 +0000
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>Subject: Re: Santilli Knew 'Tent Footage' Was a Fraud?

Previously, I had offered:

>>If this info is correct, here we see that Santilli dealt with 15
>>cans of undeveloped film. In addition, Santilli uses the terms
>>"processing of the reels" and "development of the film" within
>>the same context.
>
>>I don't think for a minute he was talking about "transfer" to
>>video.

Bob adds:

>Ray Santilli did have access to developing for old film.

>There was a Kodak cartridge of old film which Mike Hesemann
>bought from a lady in Roswell which was supposed to contain
>images of the crash site.  It was unprocessed film.

>Unfortunately, Mike gave it to Ray for processing, and later
>got back a short portion of the film.  The part which had
>actually gone through the camera was missing from what Ray
>returned to Mike, and has never been accounted for.

>I submitted the portion which had been processed to Eastman
>Kodak for identification, and they verified that it had been
>correctly developed, and from the edge markings and sprocket
>spacing (which changed at several points) positively
>identified it as 1945 production.

>I still wonder what happened to the beginning of that film.

Hi Bob,

Just wondering, do the number of unprocessed reels that Santilli
told you he received jive with the number Mr. Easton cites in
the following:

>The seller of the film apparently went on to offer Santilli 15
>cans of undeveloped film, filmed by him while in the military,
>of the Roswell crash scene from the ground and air, and of the
>alien autopsies.

<snip>

>The man dragged out the old cans
>and permitted a small piece of film to be cut from the leader on
>one film to be taken to London for analyses.   According to
>Santilli, Kodac (sic) in London reported that the film was of
>about 1948 vintage.  That was good enough for Santilli who
>purchased all the cans for $100,000 (he has also mentioned
>$150,000).

The accuracy of the price not withstanding, is it known if the
"test piece" was taken from a processed or unprocessed reel?

If it was a processed reel, then the leader would have not been
part of the actual film at all, since labs add plastic leader
after processing to facilitate projection. On the other hand, if
it was unprocessed, then the "leader" would be the actual film.

Regarding the "Kodak cartridge" you mentioned above, was the
film regular 8mm? The reason I ask is that, to my knowledge,
16mm film was always used on reels and not cartridged unless it
was to be used as "split 8mm" in home movie cameras. If it had
been processed and not split it would, in fact, still look a lot
like regular 16mm film. The difference, of course, would be the
dual 8mm images side by side but would have unusual "pitch" or
sprocket hole spacings. Might this be a possibility? Or was it,
in fact, 16mm film?

Just curious...

Later,

Roger Evans





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 25

                             Re: Keeping Secrets

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 13:35:14 EST
Fwd Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 17:35:01 -0500
Subject: Re: Keeping Secrets


>From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
>Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 23:26:59 EST
>To: Updates@Globalserve.net
>Subject: Keeping Secrets

>Jim Mortellaro wrote:

>>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
>>Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 12:14:52 EST
>>Fwd Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 08:51:03 -0500
>>Subject: Keeping Secrets

><snip>

>>I was, in 1970, working on a project called NAGS.  This was the
>>acronym for Naval Advanced Guidance System.  It was one of the
>>means by which a Polaris Poseiden warhead would guide itself
>>towards target(s), as these were MIRV or multiple warheads.

>>The security at the facility was very, very strict. You needed a
>>top secret clearance just to get into the work area.  And that
>>work area was guarded 24 hours a day.  Beyond the human
>>security, you needed a special badge and code access to get
>>thru the door.

>>If there was anything about this project that was critical, it
>>was security.  About three months after I became one of the
>>Electro-Optics engineers on the project, and after numerous
>>security briefings by the military, by the project management,
>>by the company reps, by everybody, an article appeared in
>>Aviation Week and Space Technology which outlined _exactly_ what
>>this project was all about ...

>That's why it's called "Aviation Leak".

>>... including the top secret portions, which threatened corporeal
>>[sic] punishment and a cruel death to anyone on the project
>>who leaked information, even by accident.

>Does Mr. Mortellaro expect us to take this statement at face value,
>or is it a joke?  "Corporal punishment and a cruel death" for
>accidental leaking of information?

>Jim, can you cite one single documented instance in which
>punishments such as this have been authorized or applied in the
>United States of America?  I'm obviously not talking about the
>Rosenberg spy case, or the execution of NAZI agents during World
>War II. Please be specific with as many examples as you can find,
>or cite the applicable section of U.S. law authorizing such things.

>On the other hand, just since the end of the Cold War there have
>been a number of widely publicized real spy cases involving even
>such things as our wartime nuclear target list and sub operations
>codes where people have received prison terms.  None have
>received "corporeal punishment" or "cruel deaths".  The old KGB,
>on the other hand, was rumored to have thrown Soviet citizens who
>were our double agents, alive, into a basement furnace at Lubyanka
>Prison in Moscow.


Hi Bob and list members...

Uh, er, ummm.... lemme see... you write...

>Does Mr. Mortellaro expect us to take this statement at face value,
>or is it a joke?  "Corporal punishment and a cruel death" for
>accidental leaking of information?

Hiya Bob abd List,

OK... well, well, well.... now how to answer this interesting
queery, er, query.. Le question est, comme dit un en Francais?
Uh, p'tetre, en Englais... without offending the questioner...

Lemme see, Bob.  The best way I can say this, is, yes, I
confess, I was just kidding.   Hell, I can't even think of
something amusing to come back at you with...

But I will say this, in all seriousness,  this time I am _not_
kidding. you really need to conact my boss, Dr. Jaime Gesundt.
In fact, I'll give you his telephone number and I will go even
one step further, I will even notify him that you will be
calling and suggest, to him, that he place you on the "comp"
list for a free case of Gripple Plus.

Gripple Plus is our latest and newest product here at Freshly
Made. It is designed for those whose nerves are completely shot
and are exceedingly uptight, so much so that they cannot
distinguish truth from phallises.... falsies... make that
"falsehood!"  So sorry, I just had a Jolt of Plus and boy are my
arms tired.

So to you, my good friend Bob, and the rest of this marvelous
list, I have the following two things I would like to say...

First, thank you for keeping me in money.  Ever since I started
writing to UpDates, sales have soured... soard, soared.

Second, if I can't get a good yuck out of you, then it's OK if
you take me seriously.  It's really _OK_.  Just as long as you
buy my Freshly Mades.

Dr. Gesundt for Jimmy Mortellaro who is indisposed (hic!)
We will sell no wine, until it's ready!





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 25

                   Professional Status of Richard Hoagland

From: Scott LeGrand <varelse@best.com>
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 10:44:30 -0800 (PST)
Fwd Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 17:40:15 -0500
Subject: Professional Status of Richard Hoagland


Well, Robert Stephens' 200 questions imply Mr. Hoagland never
had any professional status.

I can at least confirm that he once worked for 'Star and Sky'
magazine.

Harlan Ellison recounts a brief conversation with him at JPL in
'An Edge in My Voice' - now avilable as the 2nd half of
'Edgeworks 1', on page 39, while they both watch data come in
from Voyager 1 as it reaches Saturn.






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 25

                     Anyone Heard Of The 'J-Track Link'?

From: John Hayes <jhayes@cableinet.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 18:31:03 +0000
Fwd Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 17:42:32 -0500
Subject: Anyone Heard Of The 'J-Track Link'?


I have been sent a message with the subject 'do you have the
J-track Link?'

The message reads:

==================
This link is for real time display of all orbiting satellites and
ground tracking paths.

Also included the space station mir and the shuttle when it is in
orbit. The site display in realtime 3d.
==================

If anyone can help please let me know.


John Hayes

jhayes@cableinet.co.uk
webmaster@ufoinfo.com

UFOINFO:- http://ufoinfo.com
UFO Roundup:- http://ufoinfo.com/roundup/
Filer's Files:- http://ufoinfo.com/filer/
UFOICQ Australian UFO Reports and Experiences:-
        http://ufoinfo.com/ufoicq/






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 25

               'Osiris's Grave' Detected Near Sphinx By Hawass

From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@get2net.dk>
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 20:45:09 +0100 (MET)
Fwd Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 17:46:56 -0500
Subject: 'Osiris's Grave' Detected Near Sphinx By Hawass


Source: Ekstra Bladet, in my own translation from Danish.

Stig

***

Ekstra Bladet

Sunday, January 24, 1999.

Freja Ludvigsen

THE QUEEN ATTENDS PYRAMID MEETING

Queen Margrethe has been briefed, being one of the first, on a
new, sensational grave find in the area between two of the
pyramids of Egypt.

It happened when, as a private individual, she appeared in Dansk
Industri's pyramid-shaped glass hall, at a lecture held by Dr.
Zahi Hawass, the world's leading egyptologist and head of the
Giza excavations.

Zahi Hawass is on a Scandinavian tour and was so inspired by
Margrethe's presence that he revealed a sensational
archaeological find which will be published in the Egyptian
press no sooner than in a couple of months.

Between the Sphinx and the Khefren pyramid Hawass and his staff
have discovered a hitherto unknown subterranean shaft, reaching
a depth of 29 meters [96 feet, approximately]. In the bottom of
the shaft they found a stone sarcophagus surrounded by water. If
Hawass's theory holds, he has found the grave of Osiris, the god
of death.


Amateur Archaeologist


The Queen was listening enthusiastically from the first row.
Since 1962, when she was a young crown princess and tried her
hand in Egypt as an amateur archaeologist, she has had an ardent
interest in the pyramids of Egypt.

"The finds he was describing were so great that his voice was
almost tearful," one listener said.


Inviting the Queen


Zahi Hawass ended his lecture by discreetly inviting the Queen
to visit his excavations in Giza, as Prince Henrik did last
year.

"I hope he'll bring his wife next time," he said.

Soeren Haslund-Christensen, the Lord Chamberlain, tells
EkstraBladet, that the Queen is not on her way to Egypt, though.

"Not for the time being. The Queen has a lot of other things to
do. His invitation was an instance of courtesy," the Queen's
spokesman said.







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 25

                       UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 4, Number 4

From: Joe Trainor <Masinaigan@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 19:32:28 +0000
Fwd Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 18:07:16 -0500
Subject: UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 4, Number 4


     UFO ROUNDUP
Volume 4, Number 4
January 25, 1998
Editor: Joseph Trainor



CHUPACABRA STRIKES AGAIN IN GUANICA, PUERTO RICO

Chupacabra struck again in Guanica, P.R. on Tuesday, January 12,
1999, killing 10 chickens and two ducks.

The incident occurred in a backyard poultry pen in the Laguna
section of Guanica, a town on Puerto Rico's south shore
approximately 23 miles (37 kilometers) west of Ponce.

"Ten chickens and two ducks were found dead in their pen. Ada
Figueroa, a local resident, told the EFE news agency that the
ducks, owned by her husband Heliberto Figueroa, and the
chickens, property of her neighbor Cruz Luco, were found with
two puncture marks on their bodies Tuesday, January 12."

"Mrs. Figueroa pointed out that the animals had been in securely
locked pens and that it was remarkable that her dogs had barked
incessantly all night. She briskly asserted that Edwin Luco, the
mayor of Guanica, had visited the site to see the dead animals
for himself. The marks were very similar to those which had been
reported on the bodies of other mutilated animals whose owners
claim were victims of the Chupacabra--the strange, furtive,
crimson-eyed entity who propelled Canovanas mayor Jose 'Chemo'
Soto to stardom." (See the newspaper El Nuevo Dia of San Juan,
P.R. for January 13, 1999, "Further Adventures of 'El
Chupacabras.'" Many thanks to Scott Corrales, author of
CHUPACABRAS AND OTHER MYSTERIES, for this report.)

GREEN FIREBALL SIGHTED IN HONOLULU

On Tuesday, January 19, 1999, at 10 p.m., Raymond Petry was on
Punaohu Street in the Makiki section of Honolulu, Hawaii when he
"saw a blue-green fireball move quickly from approximately
southeast to the south."

Despite the "partially puffy cloud cover over the city," Petry
was looking eastward when he spotted the fireball. It was "much
slower than a meteor--it seemed to linger at the end." A
luminous glow surrounded the object, "just a fuzzy
brightness--about two to three times the thickness of the
trail."

He first saw the fireball in the "southeast about 10 o'clock
high" and it moved to "about 11 o'clock left of the Punaohu
Street center line, which according to Bryan Maps there runs
about 40 degrees west of south." He also reported "just the
slight meandering above and below the city-top horizon."

"It did not extinguish before it moved below the visible
horizon," he added, "The trees below obscured it." (Email
Interview)

OVOID UFO SEEN BY FOUR NEAR LIMA, PERU

On Friday, January 1, 1999, at 8 p.m., Massimo G., his wife
Angela and two friends were relaxing just outside their rented
tourist camper in Barrano, a suburb of Lima, the capital of
Peru, when they noticed "a dazzling flash of light" in the east,
over the mountains of the Cordillera Occidental.

"I found myself in the Peruvian capital for a family reason,"
Massimo reported. "My wife Angela was born in Peru and emigrated
to Genoa. With several friends, we rented a camper for our tour
of the Andes. At 8 p.m., we caught a glimpse of a flash that
illuminated the tops of the mountains, a burst of light as
bright as the sun. We were at our camper in the suburb of
Barrano (about 5 kilometers or 3 miles northwest of Lima's Plaza
de San Martin--J.T.), observing the approach of this descending
light. We compared it to an intense molten light, of oval form,
which maneuvered above the crest of the mountains, speedily and
in a jerky motion--up, down, right, left, etc."

"At first we thought it was an airplane, but it continued to
follow these strange patterns. Neither myself nor my wife nor
the two friends who were with us could interpret this phenomenon
in a logical fashion. The luminous form performed there aerial
maneuvers for another 20 seconds. I would estimate that it was
perhaps three kilometers away (to the east--J.T.)." (See La Rete
#42 for January 15, 1999. Muchas gracias a Alfredo Lissoni para
eso caso.)

(Editor's Comment: Curiously enough, this UFO turned up on the
44th anniversary of Peru's most famous encounter. On January 1,
1955, eight silver discs slowly flew over the Plaza de Armas and
Avenida Nicolas de Pierrola in Lima and were seen by hundreds of
people.)

MYSTERIOUS FLASH STARTLES COUPLE IN MISSISSIPPI

On Saturday, January 9, 1999, at 12:35 a.m., Bethany J. and her
companion were in a car on a recently-paved road close to Chapel
of the Cross off Highway 463 near Canton, Mississippi.

"It was raining slightly," Bethany reported, "We had been
sitting in the car for a little over an hour when the event
occurred. The car windows were completely fogged over."

"My eyes happened to be closed. I saw through my lids a sudden
flash of light. Through my closed eyes, all I could see was a
huge, extremely bright red circle with a yellow ring around it
and a few more colors in between the red and yellow."

"My companion's eyes were wide open. He saw a red, then white
flash of light the width of a car. There was no sound or visible
damage. The light irritated my eyes and temporarily impaired his
vision. We started the car and left immediately."

An hour later, Bethany added, "My eyes were still irritated."

Canton (population 10,062) is on Mississippi Highway 16 about 20
miles (32 kilometers) north of Jackson, the state capital. (Many
thanks to Michael J. Long of Mississippi UFO Files for this
report.)

UFO HOVERS OVER STORES IN PALMDALE, CALIFORNIA

On Sunday, January 17, 1999, a woman who lives near Avenue M and
the Sierra Highway in Palmdale, California (population 68,842)
stepped outside of her home and sighted a UFO hovering nearby.

The sighting took place a little after 7 p.m. The witness said
she "saw a very bright white light," which was "coming from an
object hovering above a cleaning business."

"It was saucer-shaped with a dome on top and also had red and
blue lights associated with it," she added, "A blue and gold
aura hung around the object as it hovered silently."

The case was investigated that same evening by William J.
Hamilton, executive director of Skywatch International. Hamilton
reported that he "arrived at Sierra Highway around 8:30 p.m."
with his videocamera and "stationed myself near the end of the
runway near Air Force Plant 42 and Lockheed." However, he added
that he "did not detect anything unusual."

Returning home, Hamilton spoke to the witness on the telephone.
"She said her neighbor saw the object initially and pointed it
out to her. She said it hovered very low near a building 800
feet from her, and she had seen nothing like it before."

Palmdale is on Highway 14 about 50 miles (80 kilometers) north
of Los Angeles. (Many thanks to Bill Hamilton of Skywatch
International for this news story.)

MYSTERY BOOM RATTLES CENTRAL DELAWARE

On Friday, January 8, 1999, a mysterious sonic boom rattled
central Delaware. Calls poured into police agencies from Dover
(27,630), the state capital, and nearby towns, including Lebanon
(population 400), Camden (population 1,899) and Wyoming
(population 977).

"No one is quite sure what caused the sonic boom that shook the
Kent County area on January 8. An aircraft of unknown origin
shot through the sky at supersonic speeds, causing walls to
shake and windows to rattle. Numerous phone calls flooded local
police offices demanding answers."

"According to 1st Lt. Dale Westover (USAF), spokesman for the
Dover Air Force Base, 'Nearby air stations and bases have been
contacted in regards to the aircraft, where it came from and why
it was flying so low, but no one will take responsibility for
the aircraft."

"'We're not sure what it was, but it wasn't one of our C-5s,'
said Airman 1st Class C. Todd Lopez of the 436th Airlift Wing"
office of Public Affairs.

The flyover occurred at 6:45 p.m. Inquiries were sent to the
Patuxent Naval Air Station in Maryland, to Andrews Air Force
Base in Maryland and to the Air National Guard in Atlantic City,
New Jersey. (See the State News of Dover, Del. for January 9,
1999, "Sonic boom is super mystery" by Bruce K. Ford. Many
thanks to Gerry Lovell of Far Shores for forwarding this
newspaper article.)

DAYLIGHT DISC VIDEOTAPED IN NORTHERN IRELAND

On Sunday, January 17, 1999, at 8:15 a.m., Harry Welsh, 42, and
two friends were near the beach in Millisle, County Down,
Northern Ireland, near Ballywalter, when they spotted a saucer
flying offshore. Instantly Harry lifted his videocamera and
began shooting.

He got "30 to 35 seconds of footage" of the "disc-shaped object
over the Irish Sea, flying in a northwesterly direction at (an
altitude of) 1,500 to 2,000 feet. Conditions were very good,
very little high cloud."

Harry's videotape shows "a mysterious saucer-shaped object
shooting across the sky... Appears to be four to five miles
away, heading in a northwesterly direction. Speed hard to
judge," adding that the object stopped a few times "before
disappearing at very high speed."

Alan Sewell of the Centre of Irish UFO Studies said, "I am very
excited. It looks very convincing. It is not a conventional
aircraft. It's unidentified."

James Patterson, 45, of Ballynure, County Antrim, who captured a
UFO on video two years ago, had this comment: "There will appear
to be similarities with what I saw."

Harry Welsh said, "I've been flooded with requests from TV
companies and UFO enthusiasts. I'm glad at the response because
I want to know what it is, too." (See the British newspaper Sun
for January 18, 1999. Many thanks to Alan Sewell of the Centre
for Irish UFO Studies for forwarding the newspaper article.)

UFO FLAP SPREADS TO ALL REGIONS OF ITALY

On Saturday, January 9, 1999, at 10:30 p.m., a teenaged boy
returning home in Cava dei Tirreni spotted "a black discoidal
object" hovering above some houses. The saucer, he reported,
"had a diameter estimated at 10 meters (33 feet), emitted no
sound,and showed no lights or colors of any kind. It circled
twice over the town before flying away."

On Monday, January 11, 1999, at 7:20 p.m., a fireball appeared
in the sky over the city of Bologna, 300 kilometers (180 miles)
north of Rome. "The UFO crossed the sky for 15 seconds in a
southeasterly direction." Witnesses telephoned the Carabineri
(Italian police--J.T.) and the control tower at Marconi
International Airport. Tower personnel said there was nothing on
radar.

On Monday, January 18, 1999, at 5:30 p.m., a UFO appeared over
Trescastagni, a town on the island of Sicily, described by
witnesses as "a luminous object that crossed the sky going from
the west to the south."

"The group spotted the object near the peaks of Tre Monti on the
outskirts of Trecastagni and took note of the luminous trail
rising in the west. It crossed the sky, lighting up the clouds
like the last burst of sunshine and then went in a southerly
direction. Some witnesses spoke of one object with three lights
and a luminous molten glow. Others spoke of a trio of luminous
objects proceeding in formation. The object reportedly zigzagged
and its speed was too excessive for it to be a conventional
jet." (See the Italian newspaper La Sicilia for January 19,
1999, "Oggetto volante avvistato a Trescastagni." Grazie a
Gianfranco Degli Esposti e Alfredo Lissoni di Centro Nazionale
Ufologico per questi rapporti.)

UFO SIGHTINGS CONTINUE THROUGHOUT AUSTRALIA

More UFO reports flooded in recently from various regions of
Australia.

On Monday, December 21, 1998, Rajendra Kumur reported sighting a
UFO near Kulgera, Northern Territory. "I saw a bright orange
oval-shaped object 10 kilometers (6 miles) southwest of Kulgera,
N.T. It was moving around slowly. It had red, yellow and orange
lights on it. The object seemed to be getting brighter, then
dimmer a little at a time. We watched it for around an hour."

On Saturday, January 16, 1999, Joseph M., 33, was working the
night shift at a cotton farm near Bolloon, Queensland, 400
kilometers (240 miles) southwest of Brisbane, when he spotted a
UFO.

"I was on night shift Saturday, driving a tractor out in the
cotton fields," Joseph reported. "I turned the tractor around to
the west when I saw this bright yellow light. It was oblong
shape, size of a shirt button at arm's length. At first I
thought it was a plane with a bright light, so I kept working,
not paying much attention to it for a further five minutes. I
turned the tractor around again and saw that the lights were
still there. So I turned off the tractor to see if I could hear
any engine noise. No sound or hum. I climbed out of the cab to
get a better look, then the light moved at great speed to the
right and stopped. It did it a second time."

"I thought, Wow! That's no plane. So I got back in the cab and
bolted the doors. I just sat there watching it. The object
started to change from a bright yellow to two lights,
bluish-purple, about a meter (3 feet, 3 inches) apart. It was as
though they were not attached in the middle because you could
see between them. They both started to move very quickly, then I
lost them."

Asked how he felt about the encounter, Joseph replied, "Bloody
scared! I never believed in UFOs before, but now I suppose I'll
have to."

On Tuesday, January 19, 1999, at 8:03 p.m., a group of young
people at Old Bar Beach in Taree, New South Wales, about 300
kilometers (180 miles) north of Sydney, reported seeing "a lot
of white lights moving around in all directions."

At 9:33 p.m., they again phoned the UFO hotline and said, "We're
looking at the lights, and now they're forming an arch in the
sky. It's really scary. We have to go. We're leaving the beach."

Australian ufologist Diane Harrison telephoned the police and
asked if the Royal Australian Air Force (RAAF) was holding night
maneuvers. The police dispatcher reportedly answered, "Yes, we
have had quite a few phone calls from as far away as Port
Macquarie about orange balls of light in the sky," adding that
"it was just the RAAF dropping flares."

Ms. Harrison then phoned RAAF Williamstown and asked if they
were holding night exercises. She was told "No, ma'am, we are
not." (Many thanks to Diane Harrison of UFO Australasian Hotline
for these reports.)

UNKNOWN THREAT PUTS CASSINI IN SAFE MODE

On Monday, January 11, 1999, the spacecraft Cassini, bound for
Saturn, suddenly and inexplicably went into "safe mode."

The $3.4 billion spacecraft, expected to arrive at Saturn in
2004, "went into so-called 'safe mode' when it detected a
potential problem...The probe sensed a possible problem on
Monday, triggering a program designed to halt non-critical
activity. The spacecraft began using minimum power and putting
its 12-foot (3.5 meter) antenna forward to shade the rest of the
spacecraft."

"Program manager Bob Mitchell said engineering data from the
spacecraft are being transmitted to Earth to help engineers
discover what caused Cassini to go into safe mode."

"JPL (NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory--J.T.) engineers suspect
that during a tracking maneuver, Cassini's star scanner may have
scanned a patch of space without the bright stars the spacecraft
uses to orient itself in space."

"Mitchell said he expected Cassini would be taken out of safe
mode later this week after the problem has been identified and
the data thoroughly analyzed."

Cassini is now on its way to Venus for its second rendezvous
with that planet. After that, it will pass close to Earth to
pick up the momentum needed for its flight into the outer solar
system. (See the Miami Herald for January 14, 1999, "Saturn-
bound spacecraft has problem." Many thanks to Steve Wilson Sr.
for forwarding this article.)

(Editor's Comment: Here we go again. Three weeks ago, the Near
Earth Asteroid Rendezvous (NEAR) spacecraft mysteriously hopped
into safe mode for no explainable reason. Now it's Cassini.
Perhaps the spacecraft radars are reacting to the close approach
of a meteor...or a UFO.)


from the UFO Files...

1972: BIGFOOT ENCOUNTER IN SOUTHERN IDAHO

"Until Justin 'Judd' Phelps, resident of St. Charles (Idaho),
disclosed his 1972 sightings, the Bigfoot phenomenon had not
been reported outside of the Pacific Northwest. Phelps, a
lineman-engineer on the Union Pacific Railroad, claims to have
seen the creature in the depths of a canyon near St. Charles on
January 2, 1972."

"His (Bigfoot's) tracks were similar to a bear's but slimmer and
about a size 13 in length. They sunk about a foot into the snow.
Each time the creature was sighted, it stamped its feet and
shook its head like a child in anger. Measured against a
nine-foot (2.7 meter) tree, it measured six feet (1.8 meters)
tall."

"In hopes of catching a glimpse of the creature again, on
January 2, 1972, Phelps left his St. Charles home on a snow
machine and arrived at the place of his previous sighting around
noon. It was bitter cold, so he built a fire."

"He had been there about two hours and the fire was getting hot,
so he decided to put a little snow on the fire and then he got a
feeling that he was being watched."

"It was between 1:30 and 2 p.m. He looked up from where he had
been resting, stretched on his snow machine, and saw just 100
yards away, an ape-like creature with grayish-brown hair
returning his gaze."

"It was standing by a young pine tree, and when it saw Phelps
look his way, it waved its arms and stomped its feet and headed
for the deeper woods."

"The first time Phelps saw the creature it frightened him and he
fired above its head."

"This time, however, he spoke soothingly to it and attempted to
take a picture. When he pulled the self-developing (Polaroid)
film from the camera, there was no figure on the scene, possibly
because he had an older-model camera and his hands had been
shaking while attempting to capture the creature on film."

"Upon investigating the spot where he had seen the creature, he
found tracks which had sunk about a foot (30 centimeters) into
the loose snow. The snow at the site was six to eight feet deep,
about two feet being new snow. He did not follow the trail."

"Phelps tried two days later to make contact with the creature
again but was unsuccessful." (See FLICKERING MEMORIES: FOLKLORE
IN THE BEAR LAKE VALLEY, Volume 2, by Bonnie Thompson, Printers
Inc., Salt Lake City, Utah, 1977, pages 59 and 60.)

(Editor's Note: Bear Lake, which straddles the state line
between Utah and Idaho, is also the home of a Loch Ness-type
plesiosaur, which has been seen sporadically during the past two
hundred years. St. Charles, Idaho is the boyhood home of Gutzon
Borglum, the sculptor who carved Mount Rushmore.)


FUN UFO WEBSITES:

Don't forget to visit our parent site, UFO INFO, which has the
latest in UFO news, feature stories, photos, videos and links.
It's easy to reach. Just set your browser for http://ufoinfo.com

Back issues of UFO Roundup can be accessed, read and downloaded
at our webpage. Check us out at http://ufoinfo.com/roundup

Well, that's it for this week. Is everybody ready for the Blue
Moon? According to Charles Fort, things really get strange
during a Blue Moon. It will be interesting to see what news
items arrive on our editorial doorstep this week.

We'll be back in seven days with more UFO news from around the
planet, brought to you by "the paper that goes home--UFO
Roundup." See you then.

UFO ROUNDUP: Copyright 1999 by Masinaigan Productions, all
rights reserved. Readers may post news items from UFO Roundup on
their websites or in newsgroups provided that they credit the
newsletter and its editor by name and list the date of issue in
which the item first appeared.





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 25

                           Open Letter To Art Bell

From: Barbara Sagan <bbjc@ozemail.com.au>
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 09:21:32 +1100
Fwd Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 18:11:20 -0500
Subject: Open Letter To Art Bell


[Non-Subscriber Post]

Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 09:17:13 +1100
From: Barbara Sagan <bbjc@ozemail.com.au>
To: Art Bell <artbell@aol.com>
Subject: Open Letter To Art Bell


Dear Mr. Bell,

The nation is waiting for your response tonight:

1. When will you have Hoagland-Stephens Debate?

2. If Stephens wins, will he replace Hoagland as permanent guest
   on your show?

3. Now that we know that Hoagland is a fraud, what about Dames?

4. Art, you are a genius, your ratings are going up and up
   did you plan all that?


Barbara





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 25

               Re: Strange Goings-On At Roswell International

From: John Hayes <jhayes@cableinet.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 20:19:30 +0000
Fwd Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 18:20:33 -0500
Subject: Re: Strange Goings-On At Roswell International


>From: Wendy Connors <ProjectSign@EMAIL.MSN.COM>
>Subject: Re: IUFOMRC (UFO Museum in Roswell)
>To: CURRENT-ENCOUNTERS@LISTSERV.AOL.COM
[Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 14:10:38 -0700 --ebk]

>Greetings to the Lists:

>The following was sent to me from Faeylyn Wylder the former
>webmaster of the museum's website.

>Wendy Connors

>---------------------------

<Very big snip>

Thanks for posting this on the list (and the previous message
from Jim Chambers).

I have known for a long time what happened to Faeylyn and had
offered to post here on the list and my site an account of what
happened and the way she was treated.

I must admit to being very surprised when I found out for the
first time about the unpaid work she put in to that site, then
to be treated like that. Words fail me......they don't but Errol
probably couldn't post some of it!

Having known Faeylyn on the 'net from when she did the website
for the UFO Enigma Museum in Roswell, I have come to regard her
as a good personal friend who has gone out of her way to help
others in the UFO field.

For anyone interested Faeylyn currently maintains the following
sites:

Project Sign: http://www.evansville.net/~slk/Sign.html

Dennis G. Balthaser: http://members.aol.com/cellyst/

Jason Leigh: http://members.aol.com/jasonufo/

Electric Paint: http://hometown.aol.com/faeylyn/txtfrm7.htm

The last one is a collection of clipart for websites from
Faeylyn and Jim Chambers.

Faeylyn also created the UFO Roundup logo and several other
pieces of clipart for the UFOINFO site.





John Hayes

jhayes@cableinet.co.uk
webmaster@ufoinfo.com

UFOINFO:- http://ufoinfo.com
UFO Roundup:- http://ufoinfo.com/roundup/
Filer's Files:- http://ufoinfo.com/filer/
UFOICQ Australian UFO Reports and Experiences:-
        http://ufoinfo.com/ufoicq/





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 25

                             Re: Keeping Secrets

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 17:53:43 EST
Fwd Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 18:26:29 -0500
Subject: Re: Keeping Secrets


Hi all... and you know which one of those you are, don't you?

I've been reading various of the posts on the "Keeping Secrets'"
thread, and boy am I surprised that my post about being beaten
up by my beloved Gub

























   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 25

                            Re: Stephens-Firmage

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 17:05:09 -0600
Fwd Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 18:35:58 -0500
Subject: Re: Stephens-Firmage


>From: Jeff Rense <eotl@west.net>
>Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 02:44:48 -0800 (PST)
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Stephens-Firmage

>Hi Errol...

>I've posted all of Robert Stephen's '200 Hoagland Interview
>Questions'...and the surprise introduction by Joseph
>Firmage...at the top of my homepage. There is a large banner
>there.

>It will be interesting to see how, or if, Richard chooses to
>respond, and to watch how the community reacts to such a
>provocative and unprecendented list of queries, which, at times,
>are searing to say the least.

>There are several revelations including: Joe Firmage's financial
>underwriting of some of Hoagland's past research, and the
>statement by Stephens that families of the dead Heaven's Gate
>cult members might be assembling a massive lawsuit against Art
>Bell and Richard Hoagland.

>It's quite a read.


Watch with _keen_ interest a destruction of Hoagland, and pay
some attention to Bell's fall from grace; soon, then, it's _you_
that is censured, disparaged, or made to find libel, and ruined
-- disgraced. Let them _say_ what they will, as it's _me_ that
must prove it; I'd hear what they _say_ though the heavens must
fall! I'll think on my own, and won't suffer intrusions to
critical thinking as I go along. As Hoagie and Arty are sued and
displaced (?) then Laura and Errol, and Jeff are replaced. Linda
and Stanton are silenced in fear of the *righteous* Gestapo that
torments their peers. Hopkins is jailed -- John Velez
underground -- and Lehmberg _stops_ writing (to relief all
around). If NASA's forthcoming as Stephens makes out, they'd go
on the Rense show for questions about all the stories we've
heard that upset and perplex us -- that mystify, scare, and
completely infect us. They don't, and that's telling -- there's
something afoot; something worth shouting from roof tops --
"Hey! LOOK"!

Lehmberg@snowhill.com

Restore John Ford!
--
Explore the Alien View!
Ponder the Wit & Wisdom of Ching Chow!

http://www.fortunecity.com/roswell/arecibo/46/

<Updated 18 January>

John Ford Restoration Fund -- Send your checks and
money orders to _me_, Alfred Lehmberg
(cut out the lawyers, they got their's) at:
304 Melbourne Drive, Enterprise AL, 36330. Strict records kept.

"Only thin, _very light_ envelopes with a return address will be
accepted <g>." ~~~ $225.00 pledged -- $125.00 collected ~~~

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see from
afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, while burning at the
fundamentalist's stake.





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 26

                       Re: Underwater UFO Phenomenon?

From: Leanne Martin <leanne_martin@hotmail.com>
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 15:42:02 PST
Fwd Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 03:26:27 -0500
Subject: Re: Underwater UFO Phenomenon?


>From: Sefer Murat Aksoy <murataksoy@lycosmail.com>
>Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 02:51:16 -0500 (EST)
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Underwater UFO Phenomenon?

>[Non-subscriber Post]

>Dear UFO Researchers,

>I am working on a special project related to USOs,that is,
>Unidentified Swimming/Submarine/Submerged/Submersible/Aquatic
>Objects, or simply Underwater UFO Phenomenon. Please would you
>help me by informing me about some UFOlogist names who are
>already interested in USOs. If you do it for me, then I will be
>very glad too.

>I am looking forward to see your mail as soon as it is possible.

>Wish you success at your work.

>     Sefer Murat AKSOY
>murataksoy@lycosmail.com


G'day Sefer & List,

I had an interesting conversation with a friend two days who
related to me the following (paraphrased):

"Several years ago we were sailing around the bottom of
Tasmania, near Port Davey, and we know the area can produce good
shows of phosphorescent algae but we weren't prepared for what
we came upon.

I was standing watch aft and it was a beautifully clear night. I
became aware that there very bright submerged lights way ahead
and we were sailing straght for them. As we got closer I could
see how intense they were but I couldn't guage their depth. The
whole area was covered with them and they stretched on into the
distance. I have seen a lot of things at sea but nothing like
this. They looked just like bright light streaming from port
holes in a submarine. (The speaker was a navy diving instructor
for several years.) Also, they were lined up very regularly in
rows - vast rows.

This spooked me like you wouldn't believe so I went and got the
boat owner and showed him. He was awe struck! I told him that I
didn't want to go any further as I feared hitting one or more
solid submerged objects and insisted that we change course. He
agreed and we left the area. I haven't seen anything like it
since and I visit the area on a regular basis in my own vessel
still."


I thought that this may be of interest . . .

Regards,
Leanne  ];-)






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 26

                           Re: UFO Communication?

From: Rick Goldsmith <rgoldsm@synapse.net>
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 19:32:26 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 03:41:27 -0500
Subject: Re: UFO Communication?


>From: Brian Straight <brians@mdbs.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: UFO Communication?
>Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 09:42:19 -0500

>>From: Rick Goldsmith <rgoldsm@synapse.net>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>Subject: Re: UFO Communication?
>>Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 23:49:26 -0500

>Rick --

>Here's a quote from the Minidisc page FAQ:

>Recordable MD's are similar, but a pre-groove replaces the pits
>and valleys and an MO coating replaces the aluminum one. When
>recording, a laser is focused from one side of the disc onto the
>pre-groove and heats a spot on the MO recording layer to its
>Curie point while a magnetic field from a head in contact with
>the other side of the disc aligns magnetic dipoles within (read
>magnetizes) the heated spot on the MO layer (the N/S orientation
>corresponding to 0s and 1s in the data). During playback the MD
>machine focuses the laser on the pre-groove again, but at lower
>power, and the data is read back by measuring changes in
>polarization of light reflected from the previously magnetized
>regions (the Faraday effect).


Thank-you for sending along this quote, Brian. Very informative.
In fact now I'm sure that there is no magnetic bending of light,
laser or otherwise, happening in one of these machines.

The "changes in the polarization" of the reflected laser light,
in this example, has more to do with the "reflective properties
of the MO layer that were modified by the magnetic record head".

By "aligning the magnetic dipoles", you are going to modify the
reflective properties of the material as well. In the case of a
non-reflective, read-through media, polarization would take the
place of reflection (sort of).

Picture that entire readable track on the disk being a
gazzillion tiny little mirrors (or one really long one) carved
from one big mirror by melting a spot, aligning it's reflective
surface magnetically, and movinging along to the next little
mirror. The laser is lower-power when reading because if it
weren't, you'd melt the little mirrors again and be back at
square one, a blank disc.

Sounds to me like this technology was invented to avoid
manipulating the laser itself, with regards to writing and
reading the data. I can imagine that being quite a finnicky
operation, considering the tolerances involved. It's so much
easier to do it magnetically. I guess the next step will be
aligning the dipoles discreetly, atom by atom, and make it
affordable teeny-weeny read-write head ).

This is my take on the quote you graciously supplied. I could
expand on this if you are interested (supper's ready). Let me
know...


'Not trying to pick a fight here, I always enjoy reading your
posts but I believe one of the main goals for this year should
be keeping our science and technology Straight :) when it
involves things ufological.  Feel free to let me have it if I
give you a bum steer.


Cheers,

Rick Goldsmith







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 26

                1999 UFO Alien Abduction Conference Announced

From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@get2net.dk>
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 02:02:26 +0100 (MET)
Fwd Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 03:51:53 -0500
Subject: 1999 UFO Alien Abduction Conference Announced


Source: "alt.ufo.reports".

Stig

***

From: "Gerard Vanderleun"
<gerard.vanderleun@generalmedia.com>
Newsgroups: alt.ufo.reports
Subject: 1999 UFO ALIEN ABDUCTION CONFERENCE
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 11:49:06 -0500
ef: news.get2net.dk alt.ufo.reports:26306

The Intruders Foundation Presents

THE 1999 UFO ABDUCTION CONFERENCE
-  WHAT WE KNOW AND HOW WE KNOW IT -

On Saturday, April 10, 1999, New York City will be the site of a
day-long national conference on the UFO abduction phenomenon.
Four of America's most respected UFO researchers - Budd Hopkins,
Stanton Friedman, David Jacobs and Jerome Clark - will welcome
the public to a cutting-edge presentation of current evidence
for the reality and possible future of alien abductions.

The conference is planned as both a crash course in the ongoing
UFO abduction phenomenon - what we know and how we know it - and
an illustrated presentation of the latest research findings.

At 10:00 a.m. proceedings begin with a lecture by nuclear
physicist and internationally known investigator Stanton
Friedman. Mr. Friedman, author of Crash at Corona and Top
Secret/Majic, will present a range of scientific evidence in
support of the theoretical presence of extraterrestrial life and
the ability for technologically advanced societies to travel
between solar systems.

The second lecture will be given by Jerome Clark, veteran
researcher and author of the masterful, virtually indispensable
two-volume UFO Encyclopedia as well as other numerous important
books and articles. Mr. Clark will present a concise history of
the abduction phenomenon, with special attention to significant
but little known aspects of such seminal cases as those of Betty
and Barney Hill, Charles Hickson and Calvin Parker, and Travis
Walton.

The afternoon session begins with a lecture by pioneer abduction
researcher Budd Hopkins, author of Missing Time, Intruders -
source of the CBS miniseries - and Witnessed - The True Story of
the Brooklyn Bridge UFO Abductions. Mr. Hopkins will present his
latest case findings, with special emphasis on witnessed UFO
abductions and the issue of alleged Alien implants. His talk,
like the others, will be illustrated by slides and videotapes.

Dr. David Jacobs, distinguished Temple University historian and
author of two trailblazing books on the abduction phenomenon -
Secret Life and The Threat - will present the fourth lecture.
Dr. Jacobs will discuss evidence he and other researchers have
amassed which indicates a highly specific and disturbing Alien
agenda and an answer to the central question: why are they here?

In a fifth part of the conference, documentary filmmaker Carol
Rainey will draw on her own media experience in an exploration
of how the mainstream media treats the subject of UFO
abductions. In a lecture packed with video clips, Rainey will
discuss why the media often either ignores or misrepresents the
phenomenon. She includes a behind-the-scenes look at the making
of a controversial PBS "NOVA" program, "Kidnapped by UFOs?,"
which featured Budd Hopkins, John Velez and John Mack.

The final evening session will be an extended panel discussion
moderated by the composer, journalist and UFO researcher Greg
Sandow. Appearing along with Mr. Sandow will be the five
speakers - David Jacobs, Budd Hopkins, Jerome Clark, Stanton
Friedman and Carol Rainey - and two well known UFO abduction
experiencers, Linda Cortile and IF webmaster John Velez. Full
audience participation will be encouraged in this final segment
of what we believe will be a historic event.

The conference will be held at the O. Henry Learning Center, at
333 West 17th Street in Manhattan. Registration begins at 9:00
a.m.  Admission to all events is $60 purchased in advance or $80
at the door. A student discount is offered. For tickets and
further information phone the Intruders Foundation at
212-645-5278.

IF - Intruders Foundation
P. O. Box 30233
New York, NY  10011

212-645-5278

e-mail: jvif@spacelab.net
www.if-aic.com/conference





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 26

                       Re: What's The Point? - A Rant

From: Leanne Martin <leanne_martin@hotmail.com>
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 17:13:45 PST
Fwd Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 03:54:17 -0500
Subject: Re: What's The Point? - A Rant


>From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
>Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 20:52:50 +0000
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: What's The Point? - A Rant

>>From: Leanne Martin <leanne_martin@hotmail.com>
>>Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 00:04:54 PST
>>Fwd Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 15:54:44 -0500
>>Subject: Re: What's The Point? - A Rant

>Previously, Leanne wrote:

>>When I grow up I'll buy a rant of my
>>own . . . maybe a chicken rant, or a sheep rant, or a cattle
>>rant, or a dude rant - I know, a Hoagland rant with lots of
>>little Hoagies running around . . .

>Hi Leanne!

>Might I suggest an Ant Rant (as opposed to an Aunt Farm where my
>Uncle goes for conjugal visits on Sundays). They're great for
>the apartment dweller that wants a big spread on a tight budget.
>Version 2.0 is supposed to have fewer bugs, I hear.;)

>Great to have you back! Hope your trip was fun. I tried my best
>to keep things stirred up while you were gone. However, I am not
>worthy of the position. I bow in awe to your superior
>capabilities.

>All hail Leanne! Goddess of Torment! <G>


G'day Roger (& List),

Thanx for the stirring . . er, I mean rousing welcome!  <g>

I hope you got up plenty of peoples' noses whilst I was away...

Regards,
Leanne  ];-)






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 26

                  Spanish 'Anomaly Foundation' Rewards UFO

From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@get2net.dk>
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 02:46:03 +0100 (MET)
Fwd Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 04:00:35 -0500
Subject: Spanish 'Anomaly Foundation' Rewards UFO


Source: "swnet.sci.ufo" (Swedish UFO newsgroup).

Stig

***

From: Mikael_Sjoberg@online.idg.se
Newsgroups: swnet.sci.ufo
Subject: Hessdalenprojektet
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 22:38:52 +0100


SPANISH ANOMALY FOUNDATION REWARDS THE HESSDALEN PROJECT.

Santander (Spain), December 1998. The Board of Directors of
Anomaly Foundation has granted Mr. Erling Strand (Norway),
director of the Hessdalen Project, the 1998 International Zurich
Prize, sponsored by Zurich Insurance Company with 250,000
pesetas (US $ 1,670). Mr. Strand heads a scientific research
team that has developed high-tech equipment for the optical
recording on real time and spectrographic analysis of unusual
aerial phenomena occured in the Norwegian region of Hessdalen.

Also, the "Ricardo Caruncho" Prize of 100,000 pesetas (US & 670)
has been granted to engineer Mr. Juan A. Fern=E1ndez Peris from
Valencia (Spain) for his outstanding report solving the mystery
of November 11, 1979 UFO encounter in the Mediterranean sea, of
international fame. On that date, the crew of a commercial
airplane flying en route from Majorca to Tenerife sighted two
strange lights in the sky. The unexpected, weird event provoked
an emergency landing in the Manises airport, Valencia. This
occurrence brought a Parliament question to the Government from
the Socialist party in the opposition.

The "Universitas" Fellowship (150,000 pesetas or US $ 1,000),
which is partially sponsored by the Washington, D.C.-based Fund
for UFO Research, went to Mr. J.M. Gonz=E1lez to compile and
catalog the massive, life-long letter exchange legacy from
Manuel Osuna, pionner Spanish ufologist. The "Cuadernos de
Ufolog=EDa" Award was granted to Mr. Pedro Red=F3n, president of
Centro de Estudios Interplanetarios (Barcelona), in recognition
for having devoted three decades to the serious study of
unidentified flying objects.

The Anomaly Foundation is a not-for-profit organization approved
in 1997 by the Spanish Ministry of Education and Culture. It was
established to promote mainstream scientific investigation of
anomalous aerial phenomena or UFOs.

For 1999, in addition to normal activities of the Foundation
aimed to tracing and managing archives, publishing the
influential jounal Cuadernos de Ufolog=EDa, books, etc., it has
been created a 100,000 pesetas Research Fund to provide aids to
field investigations of UFO sightings. There will be 1999
editions for the international Zurich prize and the Universitas
fellowship as well.

Amongst the research in progress presently promoted by the
Foundation it is worth noting the assignment to Mr. Mart=ED Fl=F2,
from Barcelona Univesity, to develop a computer data base
applied to bibliography citations on UFO phenomena in the
scientific literature.

By-laws of grants for UFO research are available from Anomaly
Foundation, Apartado 5.041, 39080 Santander, Spain. Public is
invited to consult the Foundation=B4s web page in the Internet
address

http://Fast.To/anomalia

Donations are kindly requested in order to improve the number
and amounts of financial aids to research granted by the Anomaly
Foundation.

For further information, contact our Press Office
e-mail

rcampo@datalogic.es






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 26

                Re: Santilli Knew 'Tent Footage' Was a Fraud?

From: Steven W. Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 21:10:55 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 04:14:07 -0500
Subject: Re: Santilli Knew 'Tent Footage' Was a Fraud?


>Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 12:09:06 -0600 (CST)
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Dennis <dstacy@texas.net>
>Subject: Re: Santilli Knew 'Tent Footage' Was a Fraud?

>I suspect that all the barns had burned down just before Bob
>Shell passed through because of a shortage of lightning rods,
>although it could be more mysterious (and sinister) than that.
>Maybe we'd better put Michael Hesseman on it. I suspect the
>aliens are collecting barns. (You gotta put all that hybridized
>wheat from the crop circles somewhere, not to mention all them
>harvested animal parts.)

>Dennis

Actually, the barn issue (as mentioned in relation to the AA
"film") relates more to what you might find in the Socorro area,
rather than Roswell.  More specifically, what you might find in
the area west of Socorro.  I drove through that area in 1996 to
see the alleged site that Hesseman had identified as the one
that the "cameraman" had described. However, like the rest of
Ray's story, this facet of the tale didn't make a whole lot of
sense either.

No, there are no barns in the immediate area that Hesseman has
pinpointed. Yes, there are a few structures that might be called
"barns" on many of the ranches in that region, but I guess that
depends on how you want to define "barn".  That part of New
Mexico was probably more economically tied to mining than it was
to ranching, except along the Rio Grande river, which is just
east of Socorro.

Oh, and before anyone asks, beer was readily available in
Socorro as well. But then again, it's (in part) a college town.

Steve






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 26

                             Re: Keeping Secrets

From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 21:37:17 +0000
Fwd Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 04:17:51 -0500
Subject: Re: Keeping Secrets


>From: Scott Carr <sardonica@erols.com>
>Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 13:12:04 -0800
>Fwd Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 16:24:13 -0500
>Subject: Re: Keeping Secrets

>>From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
>>Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 23:26:59 EST
>>To: Updates@Globalserve.net
>>Subject: Keeping Secrets

Previously, Bob had written:

>>Does Mr. Mortellaro expect us to take this statement at face
>>value, or is it a joke?  "Corporal punishment and a cruel
>>death" for accidental leaking of information?

>>Jim, can you cite one single documented instance in which
>>punishments such as this have >been authorized or applied in the
>>United States of America?

Scott points out:

>.... one example
>which I have personally witnessed is the simple fact that the
>warning signs at the military border of Area 51 clearly state
>"Use of deadly force authorized."

 <snip>

>The simple fact that there is a sign which declares the right to
>use deadly force should be evidence enough for the military's
>position regarding the protection of their own privacy. As far
>as I know, although it is authorized, deadly force has never
>been used or even attempted along the border of America's most
>popular secret base.


Hi Scott,

You've hit the nail squarely on the head. There seems to be a
train of thought among doubters that goes something like this:

It hasn't happened to me or anyone else that I know, plus it's
not the known policy of the US government. Therefore, it doesn't
happen.

The obvious flaw in this logic is to suggest that it can't
happen to the many if it's not known to have happened to the
one. The key phrase here is "known to have happened".

I seriously doubt if any civilian can prove a documented case
for the use of deadly force to protect a top secret facility
like Area 51. However, considering the nature of the beast, why
should we expect documentation to be made available? It is,
after all, top secret. Is it not reasonable to expect security
events would be kept secret also?

If full disclosure were really a part of the government's
policy...

No, I'm being too diplomatic here...I'll start over...

If the government didn't LIE as a part of its normal everyday
policy this list would have nothing to speculate about and we'd
also know who really killed JFK! <G>

Later,

Roger Evans






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 26

                         Re: Santilli's Film Scraps

From: GT McCoy <gtmccoy@harborside.com>
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 19:01:39 -0800
Fwd Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 04:24:13 -0500
Subject: Re: Santilli's Film Scraps



>Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 19:19:05 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time)
>From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@YorkU.CA>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Santilli's Film Scraps

Hello, Nick, everyone.
Nick Wrote:

>Greetings everyone.

>Last night I continued to read "The Aliens and the Scalpel", a
>newly published book by Dr. Roger K. Leir.

>In 1997 Reg Presley arranged a meeting with Ray Santilli for
>Roger Leir and Derrel Sims.

>At this meeting a proposal was made to Ray to allow them to have
>the original Alien Autopsy film analyzed at a top research lab
>so that the age of film could be known.  Although Ray did not
>give an answer to their proposal at this meeting, Roger and
>Derrel did get film scraps which Reg obtained from Ray.

When I read this, I knew we'd absolutely been had ! I smell'd the
o'l disappearing atrifact/ sample trick."_____*please put the
I.D. or serial number of your sample here and we will lose it
immediately''.

>In his book Roger mentions that "Results from the film analysis
>have now been obtained, as of this writing in August, 1998, but
>we cannot release the results here due to a prior agreement with
>Santilli."

Oik! the Game's  afoot!

>Once Ray knows that the film scraps can be dated conclusively,
>let us hope that permission will be given to also have the
>actual Alien Autopsy film analyzed by the same top research lab.

Yadda, Yadda,Yadda. What is said "top reaseach lab? Pray tell,
"The Weekly World News" photo modification lab?

>Until this happens, we have too many good reasons to doubt that
>the Alien Autopsy film actually dates from the 1940's.

Right on, Nick, I had both hands in the air,now I know the
reason -One of my realitives was supposedly robbed by the James
Boys, now I know the feeling. <G>



"It is't so much he's trying to do it
 It's the credit he's giving my intelligence!"
 -From 'Garfield' comic strip-GT McCoy






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 26

                   Re: Anyone Heard Of The 'J-Track Link'?

From: Dave Bethke <bethland@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 21:19:40 -0600
Fwd Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 04:27:58 -0500
Subject: Re: Anyone Heard Of The 'J-Track Link'?

[Non-Subscriber Post]

>From: John Hayes <jhayes@cableinet.co.uk>
>Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 18:31:03 +0000
>Fwd Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 17:42:32 -0500
>Subject: Anyone Heard Of The 'J-Track Link'?

>I have been sent a message with the subject 'do you have the
>J-track Link?'


This is run by NASA at:

http://liftoff.msfc.nasa.gov/realtime/JTrack/3d/AppletFrame.html.

You will have to throw caution to the wind and enable Java to
see it work.

--
Dave Bethke - non-subscriber on the fringe of Houston






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 26

                           Re: Greenwood on MJ-12

From: Ryan S. Wood <rswood@igc.apc.org>
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 19:35:48 -0800
Fwd Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 10:35:58 -0500
Subject: Re: Greenwood on MJ-12

[Non-Subscriber Post]

>Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 21:43:56 -0800
>From: Jan Aldrich <jan@CYBERZONE.NET>
>Subject: Greenwood on MJ-12
>To: PROJECT-1947@LISTSERV.AOL.COM


Dear Mr. Aldrich:

In the interest of clarity let me respond to your comments and
hopefully ease your mind and others about the authenticity
efforts by Wood & Wood around the MJ-12 documents. Our focus is
on quality, thoroughness and validation.

Jan Aldrich writes:

>>The MJ-12 Saga Continues, Greenwood Addresses New MJ-12
>>Documents In The Next UHR

>>Once again, extraordinary claims are being made involving
>>a number of documents shoved into Tim Cooper's mail box.

Really, what claims are those above and beyond the documents
themselves?

>>These second generation MJ-12 document highly promoted by
>>Dr. Robert Wood and his son attract new people to the MJ-12
>>morass. The Woods claim that by looking at the content of the
>>documents they can determine the authenticity of the material.
>>Provenance is irrelevant to these proponents.

This is statement is inaccurate. We are looking at all aspects
of authenticity, typography, content, style chirography,
provenance and difficulty in fakery. In no way are we focusing
on only a few elements. Now you may believe that we are because
that is all the information you have seen or understood.

Let me say that we have hundreds of pages of further
detailed analysis that we have not yet published.

On the provence front, Tim Cooper just agreed to take a lie
detector test on The Mike Jarmus Show after Bob Durant asked him
to.

>>All doubt has been
>>answered about the MJ-12 documents, or so we are to believe.

Were do you get that impression? There are still many man years
of additional work to be done. Do you want some assignments?

How about find every soldier in the 9393 TSU (400+) in 1947
and interview them or there children. There are other
less daunting tasks as well.

>>So while most of ufology does not yet accept the extravagant
>>claims for the new MJ-12 documents, there are many new people
>>who find these documents compelling.

Excuse me, Aldrich...most of ufology? Who are you to speak for
ufology? Did you do a survey and have a majority opinion?

>>The documents are actively
>>promoted on Art Bell and on other radio shows, and on the
>>Internet.

This is a good thing. It allows everyone to read and
understand for themselves.

>>Barry Greenwood will devote the next UFO Historical Revue to
>>problems and flaws in the new MJ-12 documents. It will probably
>>be in the mail next week.

We look forward to any serious objections, I doubt very much
that any objection that may be raised we have not already heard
of before. Very likely we will have already performed a detailed
analysis that addresses serious objections.

Remember that we have been studying and researching these
documents for nearly two years.

It is sad in my mind that Greenwood has not contacted us to
further clarification of his opinions and investigations so that
the UFO community can continue to have the best possible
information discussed in public forums such as UHR.

>>UHR, P. O. Box 176, Stoneham, MA 02180, $15/year US, $20/year
>>outside the US.

>>Jan Aldrich
>>Project 1947


R Y A N  S  W O O D
Majestic Doucments Investigator
<http://www.TheWordIsTruth.org>
______________________________
PO Box 2272, Redwood City CA 94064
Orders: 1-800-845-2151
mailto:rswood@igc.apc.org





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 26

                           Re: A Tale from Africa

From: George Filer <Majorstar@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 22:54:11 EST
Fwd Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 10:58:25 -0500
Subject: Re: A Tale from Africa


>Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 02:23:43 -0500
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net>
>Subject: Re: A Tale from Africa

>The Irish country folks used to put their male children to bed
>in girls dressing gowns (in order to disguise their sex) because
>(according to legend) "the wee folk" would come in the night and
>steal away with the child. There are many such "legends/ tales"
>that go back many centuries. I know it's true because I've been
>seeing those same little buggers ever since childhood.

>I hope and pray that sooner or later people begin to realize
>that we are not (all) crazy or delusional or suffering from some
>other mental/psychological aberration. Whatever these
>beings/things are they did not "arrive" in 1947. They have been
>around a _lot_ longer than 50 years. All indications are that
>they are (and have been) living in some kind of weird symbiotic
>relationship, or maybe even stewardship, to mankind for a lot
>longer than we may suspect. (For the benefit of those who enjoy
>nit picking anything I say to death, this is just my opinion and
>nothing more. I don't intend the remarks as fodder for debate.)

John & all interested,

As I just mentioned privately to another poster to this List,
the Arabs have been aware of this phenomenon for a lot longer
than we johnny-come-lately ufologists.  They call these folks
the "Jinn".  Their legal status is even recognized in Arabic law.
For an interesting web page on them, please see the following
web page (not mine) ...

http://www.qtm.net/~geibdan/newsd/islam.html

I would like to use your article in Filer's Files.  Please let
me know if I may.  Naturally you would receive credit for your
fine work.

Regards,

George Filer





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 26

                   Re: Anyone Heard Of The 'J-Track Link'?

From: Jacquie Cosford <millpond@shaw.wave.ca>
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 23:59:43 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 11:15:21 -0500
Subject: Re: Anyone Heard Of The 'J-Track Link'?


>Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 18:31:03 +0000
>To: UFO Updates <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: John Hayes <jhayes@cableinet.co.uk>
>Subject: Anyone Heard Of The 'J-Track Link'?

>I have been sent a message with the subject 'do you have the
>J-track Link?'

>The message reads:
>This link is for real time display of all orbiting satellites and
>ground tracking paths.

>Also included the space station mir and the shuttle when it is in
>orbit. The site display in realtime 3d.

>John Hayes

>jhayes@cableinet.co.uk
>webmaster@ufoinfo.com

The site is hosted by NASA and here's the link

http://liftoff.msfc.nasa.gov/realtime/JTrack/3d/JTrack3d.html

Hope this helps.

Regards
Jacquie







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 26

                             Re: Keeping Secrets

From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 00:58:26 EST
Fwd Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 11:22:16 -0500
Subject: Re: Keeping Secrets


>From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
>Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 13:14:46 +0000
>Fwd Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 16:09:36 -0500
>Subject: Re: Keeping Secrets

>>From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
>>Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 11:44:08 -0500
>>Fwd Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 11:44:08 -0500
>>Subject: Re: Keeping Secrets

>>>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
>>>Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 12:14:52 EST
>>>Fwd Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 08:51:03 -0500
>>>Subject: Keeping Secrets

>>Previously, Jim had written:

>>>I was, in 1970, working on a project called NAGS.

<snip>

>>>The security at the facility was very, very strict. You
>>>needed a top secret clearance just to get into the work
>>>area.

<snip>

>>>... including the top secret portions, which threatened
>>>corporeal (sic) punishment and a cruel death to anyone on
>>>the project who leaked information, even by accident.

>Bob responds:

>>Does Mr. Mortellaro expect us to take this statement at face value,
>>or is it a joke?  "Corporal punishment and a cruel death" for
>>accidental leaking of information?

>>Jim, can you cite one single documented instance in which
>>punishments such as this have been authorized or applied in the
>>United States of America?  I'm obviously not talking about the
>>Rosenberg spy case, or the execution of NAZI agents during World
>>War II. Please be specific with as many examples as you can find,
>>or cite the applicable section of U.S. law authorizing such things.

>Hi Bob,

>Have you taken a look at the title of this thread? It's called
>"Keeping Secrets". It isn't titled "Public Acknowledgement of
>Wrong Doing by the Government".

<snip>

>Is it really your contention that the US Government never does
>anything illegal, never breaks laws, has never had anyone
>silenced simply because "known policy" says otherwise? Do you
>really believe that the government even bothers to make all of
>its policies known to the public? Or that they would publicly
>acknowledge hurting anyone one, if not forced to? Do you really
>believe everything the Government tells you?

<snip>

Where do you think the term "clandestine operations" comes from?

<snip>

Roger, Jim:

Good rant, Roger.  I even agree with some of it.  But Jim
Mortellaro wasn't talking about clandestine operations.  If he
was, he goofed badly by telling us about it, didn't he?  He
would be revealing secret information about security procedures,
right?  I'm assuming here that he is still with us, unless he
has secretly suffered "corporeal" punishment or died a secret
painful death for mistakenly revealing this information to the
world via his posting.

I am being somewhat facetious, here, Roger.  But, seriously,
does Jim want us to believe that there is a policy to kill or
use corporal punishment with employees or contractors working on
top secret defense work?  We're not talking about NAZI slave
labor camps, here.  He obviously wasn't talking about some off
the books Iran Contra sort of operation, but a major defense
project. And we aren't talking about 1950s nuclear tests or what
possibly has or might happen somewhere, someplace, sometime.

We're talking about Jim Mortallero's claim about standard
security measures in use where he worked as a civilian.  I asked
him for one, single documented case where such measures have
been used.  Somewhere, someplace there must be an example.

He doesn't have to reveal any more top secrets, just point us
to, say, a newspaper article from a reputable source like the
New York Times, etc., which has reported such an incident.

In fact, his claim is pure B.S., thrown in just to make the
naive think that he knows more about what he is talking about
than he does, or perhaps just to inflate the importance of his
background.  This kind of stuff gets flung around all the time
by figures in UFOlogy claiming special inside knowledge.

I'm just asking Jim to document his claim.  I don't believe that
he can.

Clear skies,

Bob Young





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 26

                       Re: Big Al And The Grape Truck

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 01:37:39 EST
Fwd Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 11:25:17 -0500
Subject: Re: Big Al And The Grape Truck


In a message dated 1/26/99 12:52:35 AM Eastern Standard Time,
Jsmortell@aol.com writes:


>Errol, somehow I think you lost members, some of 'em anyway...
>would get a kick outa this.

This should have read... somehow I think YOUR LIST members....

Too mych Gripple!

Jimmy





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 26

                   Re: Anyone Heard Of The 'J-Track Link'?

From: John Hayes <jhayes@cableinet.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 10:08:09 +0000
Fwd Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 11:41:22 -0500
Subject: Re: Anyone Heard Of The 'J-Track Link'?


>Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 21:19:40 -0600
>From: Dave Bethke <bethland@ix.netcom.com>
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Re: Anyone Heard Of The 'J-Track Link'?

>[Non-Subscriber Post]

>>From: John Hayes <jhayes@cableinet.co.uk>
>>Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 18:31:03 +0000
>>Fwd Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 17:42:32 -0500
>>Subject: Anyone Heard Of The 'J-Track Link'?

>>I have been sent a message with the subject 'do you have the
>>J-track Link?'

>This is run by NASA at:
>
>http://liftoff.msfc.nasa.gov/realtime/JTrack/3d/AppletFrame.html.

>You will have to throw caution to the wind and enable Java to
>see it work.

Many thanks for the swift reply Dave. I will pass the details
on.


John Hayes

jhayes@cableinet.co.uk
webmaster@ufoinfo.com

UFOINFO:- http://ufoinfo.com
UFO Roundup:- http://ufoinfo.com/roundup/
Filer's Files:- http://ufoinfo.com/filer/
UFOICQ Australian UFO Reports and Experiences:-
        http://ufoinfo.com/ufoicq/





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 26

                Re: Santilli Knew 'Tent Footage' Was a Fraud?

From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net>
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 01:38:14 -0800
Fwd Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 11:39:08 -0500
Subject: Re: Santilli Knew 'Tent Footage' Was a Fraud?


>Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 12:09:06 -0600 (CST)
>From: Dennis <dstacy@texas.net>
>Re: Santilli Knew 'Tent Footage' Was a Fraud?
>
>>From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>Subject: Santilli Knew ..
>
>>That's what I was asking, where's the nearest beer joint or bar.
>
>>Both times the guy I asked looked completely stumped.
>>Is Roswell dry?    ..on Sundays at least?
>
>>-  Larry Hatch
>
>Larry,
>
>They sure as heck weren't dry when I was there for the 50th
>anniversary celebration. If they had been, Jim Mosely and I
>probably wouldn't have hung around for as long as we did!
>
>In fact, I saw several signs out front of eating establishments
>advertising some sort of new drink concoction with "alien" in
>the title. Seems like almost everyplace had one, to go with the
>alien burgers and fries.

>If I'd known barns were ultimately going to be a Roswell issue,
>too, I would have paid more attention, although that probably
>would have meant drinking less.

>I suspect that all the barns had burned down just before Bob
>Shell passed through because of a shortage of lightning rods,
>although it could be more mysterious (and sinister) than that.
>Maybe we'd better put Michael Hesseman on it. I suspect the
>aliens are collecting barns. (You gotta put all that hybridized
>wheat from the crop circles somewhere, not to mention all them
>harvested animal parts.)


I thought those all went into glassy drums underground.

That settles that. Maybe Roswell is (or was) dry on Sundays
only... maybe I was dealing with some clueless kid.

All I know is, I found it unsettling enough to continue on into
a wet Texas county. I never saw a barn in NM. Not a one,   but
then I wasn't looking for them either.

Larry.

=  =  =






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 26

                         Big Al And The Grape Truck

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 12:01:44 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 12:01:44 -0500
Subject: Big Al And The Grape Truck

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 00:52:07 EST
To: updates@globalserve.net,
Subject: Big Al And The Grape Truck



I asked Al Lehmberg to send this out to the world, because
I think it's terrific.  Al, you made me laugh with this .gof and
everyone on the list needs to see it.

Errol, somehow I think your list members, some of 'em anyway...
would get a kick outa this.

So here is the way Al Lehmberg sees the alien view of Gripple!

Attached...






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 26

                       Re: Underwater UFO Phenomenon?

From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 08:35:24 +0000
Fwd Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 12:33:31 -0500
Subject: Re: Underwater UFO Phenomenon?


>From: Leanne Martin <leanne_martin@hotmail.com>
>Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 15:42:02 PST
>Fwd Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 03:26:27 -0500
>Subject: Re: Underwater UFO Phenomenon?

>>From: Sefer Murat Aksoy <murataksoy@lycosmail.com>
>>Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 02:51:16 -0500 (EST)
>>To: updates@globalserve.net
>>Subject: Underwater UFO Phenomenon?

Previously, Leanne had relayed to us this story:

>I had an interesting conversation with a friend two days who
>related to me the following (paraphrased):

>"Several years ago we were sailing around the bottom of
>Tasmania, near Port Davey, and we know the area can produce good
>shows of phosphorescent algae but we weren't prepared for what
>we came upon.

>I was standing watch aft and it was a beautifully clear night. I
>became aware that there very bright submerged lights way ahead
>and we were sailing straght for them. As we got closer I could
>see how intense they were but I couldn't guage their depth. The
>whole area was covered with them and they stretched on into the
>distance. I have seen a lot of things at sea but nothing like
>this. They looked just like bright light streaming from port
>holes in a submarine. (The speaker was a navy diving instructor
>for several years.) Also, they were lined up very regularly in
>rows - vast rows.

>This spooked me like you wouldn't believe so I went and got the
>boat owner and showed him. He was awe struck! I told him that I
>didn't want to go any further as I feared hitting one or more
>solid submerged objects and insisted that we change course. He
>agreed and we left the area. I haven't seen anything like it
>since and I visit the area on a regular basis in my own vessel
>still."

Hi Leanne,

Have you ever been on one of the "Ride Film" attractions where
the seats move in conjunction with the movie you're seeing? Or
perhaps one of the many IMAX screenings, 3D or otherwise? In
many ways, the story you relate is an example of a UFO related
question I've thought about for a long time:

"When is 'real' real?"

In the screenings I mention, you go into them _knowing_ that
they are merely a simulation; they're not real. But there
reaches a point during the show when all your senses are fooled
just enough to make your self preservation kick in. You start
grabbing onto things, or you feel dizzy or you're sure that
something is going to hit you, etc.  Deep down, you know it's
not real. But still...

Relating to UFO sightings, I think quite a few people see
something in the sky but, because they don't feel a true sense
of danger or anxiety or awe or whatever, then deep down they
know it probably isn't really an ET or UFO of extraterrestrial
origin.

It might look fascinating and may fill the bill as a classic
description of a UFO, but that "second sense" didn't kick in;
you know, the one that tells you,"Holy crap, this is REAL! Maybe
I better think about getting the hell out of here!"

Of course, the down side to this is possibly that person _does_
get the hell out of there! Unfortunately, that means the most
complete descriptions we have are possibly from people seeing
something that wasn't real because, deep down, they knew it
wasn't and weren't afraid to stick around and watch.

It's too bad we don't have a device to guage this type of
"anxiety response", it might go a long way toward separating out
the authentic sightings.

On the other hand, it might just be glowing algae beneath the
surface!

Later,

Roger Evans






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 26

                Re: Santilli Knew 'Tent Footage' Was a Fraud?

From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 07:54:43 +0000
Fwd Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 12:07:45 -0500
Subject: Re: Santilli Knew 'Tent Footage' Was a Fraud?


>From: Steven W. Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
>Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 21:10:55 -0500
>Fwd Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 04:14:07 -0500
>Subject: Re: Santilli Knew 'Tent Footage' Was a Fraud?

Previously. Steven had offered:

>Actually, the barn issue (as mentioned in relation to the AA
>"film") relates more to what you might find in the Socorro area,
>rather than Roswell.  More specifically, what you might find in
>the area west of Socorro.  I drove through that area in 1996 to
>see the alleged site that Hesseman had identified as the one
>that the "cameraman" had described. However, like the rest of
>Ray's story, this facet of the tale didn't make a whole lot of
>sense either.

>No, there are no barns in the immediate area that Hesseman has
>pinpointed. Yes, there are a few structures that might be called
>"barns" on many of the ranches in that region, but I guess that
>depends on how you want to define "barn".  That part of New
>Mexico was probably more economically tied to mining than it was
>to ranching, except along the Rio Grande river, which is just
>east of Socorro.

Hi Steven,

Of course, the one thing we haven't really considered is whether
or not any barn would still be there after 50 years in the
elements. Remember what happened to the set of "Giant" out in
Marfa? Granted, well made structures do last longer in a dry
climate (possibly longer without greedy tourists taking pieces
of it). Still, someone could have simply torn the darn thing
down!

All things considered, it's probably a mute point whether or not
barns are present in the area of the crash site today. What
matters (depending on the validity of the cameraman) is if there
were any barns nearby in 1947! We may never know...

Later,

Roger Evans





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 26

                Re: Santilli Knew 'Tent Footage' Was a Fraud?

From: Bob Shell <bob@bobshell.com>
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 08:48:47 +0000
Fwd Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 12:36:40 -0500
Subject: Re: Santilli Knew 'Tent Footage' Was a Fraud?


>From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>To: "UFO UpDates Subscribers":;
>Subject: UFO UpDate: Re: Santilli Knew 'Tent Footage' Was a Fraud?
>Date: Mon, Jan 25, 1999, 10:20 PM


>From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
>Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 13:42:59 +0000
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Santilli Knew 'Tent Footage' Was a Fraud?

>Just wondering, do the number of unprocessed reels that Santilli
>told you he received jive with the number Mr. Easton cites in
>the following:

>>The seller of the film apparently went on to offer Santilli 15
>>cans of undeveloped film, filmed by him while in the military,
>>of the Roswell crash scene from the ground and air, and of the
>>alien autopsies.

My impression from Ray is that all of the film he claims to have
bought from the cameraman were already developed. Remember that
Ray is a rather young person, of the video generation rather
than the film generation, and therefore uses terms like
"process" very vaguely. I think the processing he referred to
is the transfer to video.

><snip>

>>The man dragged out the old cans
>>and permitted a small piece of film to be cut from the leader on
>>one film to be taken to London for analyses.  According to
>>Santilli, Kodac (sic) in London reported that the film was of
>>about 1948 vintage. That was good enough for Santilli who
>>purchased all the cans for $100,000 (he has also mentioned
>>$150,000).

>The accuracy of the price not withstanding, is it known if the
>"test piece" was taken from a processed or unprocessed reel?

Processed. And Kodak in London looked only at the edge markings,
triangle and square, and said the film was definitely 1947. So
did Kodak in Denmark. However, just like Ray these were younger
people who did not know that the film identification chart they
were using, printed by Kodak in Rochester, has an error which
makes it seem that only in 1947 were a solid triangle and square
used, while the ID marks for 1967 are shown in outline. When
apprised of this error, they amended their statements to say the
film could be 1947 or 1967 (and remotely 1927).

But it turns out that they were also looking at copy film, as
everyone else who has seen any film has been shown. The ID date
designators are printed through onto the copy film.

This could, of course, be faked.

BTW, Ray has always evaded the question when I have asked how
much was paid for the film. My guess, around $ 100,000.

>If it was a processed reel, then the leader would have not been
>part of the actual film at all, since labs add plastic leader
>after processing to facilitate projection. On the other hand, if
>it was unprocessed, then the "leader" would be the actual film.
>

We discussed this in 1995. Ray doesn't know the difference
between blank film at the beginning of a roll and leader which
is spliced on. There is apparently no leader, just a few feet of
blank film at the beginning of each roll.

>Regarding the "Kodak cartridge" you mentioned above, was the
>film regular 8mm? The reason I ask is that, to my knowledge,
>16mm film was always used on reels and not cartridged unless it
>was to be used as "split 8mm" in home movie cameras. If it had
>been processed and not split it would, in fact, still look a lot
>like regular 16mm film. The difference, of course, would be the
>dual 8mm images side by side but would have unusual "pitch" or
>sprocket hole spacings. Might this be a possibility? Or was it,
>in fact, 16mm film?

Roger, again you amaze me. Cartridge load 16 mm, which holds 50
feet per cartridge, is a common 16 mm format. It was used in the
40s and 50s, and is still in use by a small minority today.
There are companies which reload the cartridges for people.

The cartridge which was given to Ray was a sealed Kodak load,
which should have held the full 50 feet. Ray only returned some
33 feet or so to Mike after having it developed. As I said, the
remaining film, which is what would have actually gone through
the camera, was not returned or accounted for.


Bob






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 26

                           Re: UFO Communication?

From: Brian Straight <brians@mdbs.com>
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 09:08:45 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 12:37:53 -0500
Subject: Re: UFO Communication?


>From: Rick Goldsmith <rgoldsm@synapse.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject:  Re: UFO Communication?
>Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 19:32:26 -0500

>The "changes in the polarization" of the reflected laser light,
>in this example, has more to do with the "reflective properties
>of the MO layer that were modified by the magnetic record head".


Hi, Rick.  Thanks for the stimulating post.  If I may briefly
add a definition on the Faraday effect from a handout given at
good ol' Purdue (our local University), the Farady Effect is:

"A magneto-optic effect in which the polarization plane of an
electromagnetic wave is rotated under the influence of a
magnetic field parallel to the direction of propagation."

Which suggests that there is a direct interaction between the EM
wave and the magnetic field, rather than polarization introduced
by the reflective properties of the MO layer in a magneto
optical device modified by a magnetic field (unless, I'm missing
something, that is :)).

Brian








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 26

                Re: Santilli Knew 'Tent Footage' Was a Fraud?

From: Bob Shell <bob@bobshell.com>
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 09:56:02 +0000
Fwd Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 12:40:57 -0500
Subject: Re: Santilli Knew 'Tent Footage' Was a Fraud?


>Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 21:10:55 -0500
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Steven W. Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
>Subject: Re: Santilli Knew 'Tent Footage' Was a Fraud?

>Actually, the barn issue (as mentioned in relation to the AA
>"film") relates more to what you might find in the Socorro area,
>rather than Roswell. More specifically, what you might find in
>the area west of Socorro. I drove through that area in 1996 to
>see the alleged site that Hesseman had identified as the one
>that the "cameraman" had described. However, like the rest of
>Ray's story, this facet of the tale didn't make a whole lot of
>sense either.

As you probably recall Mike Hesemann and I disagree on this. Mike's
site is far too close to the road, in my opinion. Directions I got
from the cameraman took me much farther from Socorro up closer to
Magdalena on the Plains of San Agustin, which would coincide with
Barney Barnett's story. Also, the cameraman specifically says the
crash was on the side of a dry lake bed. There are none down close
to Socorro where Mike was, but a whole passel of them up on the
edge of the plains. I spoke with local rangers who have jurisdiction
over the whole area, and they said the only dry lake beds anywhere
around are in that area.

The other landmark is a wood bridge over a canyon. There is no
such bridge today, and it must have been gone for a long time
since the rangers knew of none, and none of the local I talked
to remembered such a bridge.

The cameraman was very specific about driving nearly an hour out
from Socorro, and the site Mike likes is only minutes from the
town limits.

>No, there are no barns in the immediate area that Hesseman has
>pinpointed. Yes, there are a few structures that might be called
>"barns" on many of the ranches in that region, but I guess that
>depends on how you want to define "barn". That part of New
>Mexico was probably more economically tied to mining than it was
>to ranching, except along the Rio Grande river, which is just
>east of Socorro.

Yes, that is accurate. It is too arid for good ranching in this
area. And western ranchers generally don't use barns anyway. The
economy, when there once was one, was tied to the mines.

>Oh, and before anyone asks, beer was readily available in
>Socorro as well. But then again, it's (in part) a college town.

Glad to know that.

Bob





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 26

                         Re: Santilli's Film Scraps

From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 09:49:30 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 16:23:17 -0500
Subject: Re: Santilli's Film Scraps


>Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 13:09:43 +0000
>Subject: Re: Santilli's Film Scraps
>From: Bob Shell <bob@bobshell.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>

<snip>

>Actually, those film scraps came from Philip Mantle, via Reg,
>and are from the same strip as the samples I have.  They are
>copy film, not camera original, and therefore meaningless.

>All they can tell is what we already know, the copy film is pre-
>1955 in origin.


Bob-

As I recall, the producer of the Channel 4 production in Great
Britain in 1995 was sent more "samples" of the alleged film than
anyone else.  I have written to him, but got no response, and
have no idea what kind of testing (if any) that he might have
pursued.  Do you know how much film he had been sent, and
whether or not he has pursued that angle at all.

You also commented in another post that Hesemman gave Ray the
undeveloped film that he'd been given in Roswell, and that Ray
allegedly had it developed.  While it would be possible to run
the film through the developing process, taking care to mix the
chemicals properly for the type of film involved, what would
have prevent cosmic radiation from fogging the film over the
years.  If that film was stored away in someone's home, it
wouldn't have been protected from such radiation, and it would
(according to some of your earlier statements) become so fogged
that it would be useless.

Any thoughts?

Steve






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 26

                           Re: Greenwood on MJ-12

From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 09:57:00 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 16:26:13 -0500
Subject: Re: Greenwood on MJ-12


>Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 19:35:48 -0800
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>From: Ryan S. Wood <rswood@igc.apc.org>
>Subject: Aldrich Comments on MJ-12 documents

>[Non-Subscriber Post]

>>Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 21:43:56 -0800
>>From: Jan Aldrich <jan@CYBERZONE.NET>
>>Subject: Greenwood on MJ-12
>>To: PROJECT-1947@LISTSERV.AOL.COM

>Dear Mr. Aldrich:

>In the interest of clarity let me respond to your comments and
>hopefully ease your mind and others about the authenticity
>efforts by Wood & Wood around the MJ-12 documents. Our focus is
>on quality, thoroughness and validation.

<massive snip>

With all due respect, the validity of these documents needs to
be proven, rather than the reverse.  As it now stands there is
no reason to believe that the documents are real, unless your
research has developed information that would support that
contention (which I somehow doubt, or you would have most likely
mentioned it).

To distribute them far and wide, and to discuss them in open
forums (such as the Art Bell program) serves to give the general
public an impression that they have been validated, which
certainly IMHO is not the case.  I suspect that you will find
far more support for these documents among the X-File croud,
than you will among serious researchers (and I'm thinking of
those who work with FUFOR, CUFOS, and MUFON).  Unfortunately,
this exemplifies some of the problems faced by UFOlogy today
(again, IMHO).

I look forward to any research information you have regarding
the MJ-12 documents, and sincerely hope that you can actually
prove that some of them are real.  Greenwood's criticisms will
be publish soon, and you will certainly have many forums that
you can use to reply.  But I wouldn't get too defensive about
the criticism that you receive from those within the ranks of
UFO researchers, since for most the MJ-12 issue was settled long
ago.

BTW, I would note that Bruce Maccabee has also released a
statement regarding the Oppenheimer/Einstein document, which
points to a number of flaws that call its validity into
question.

Steve Kaeser









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 26

                             Re: Keeping Secrets

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 12:07:57 EST
Fwd Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 16:29:48 -0500
Subject: Re: Keeping Secrets


>From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
>Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 00:58:26 EST
>To: Updates@Globalserve.net
>Subject: Re: Keeping Secrets

<snip>

>We're talking about Jim Mortallero's claim about standard
>security measures in use where he worked as a civilian.  I asked
>him for one, single documented case where such measures have
>been used.  Somewhere, someplace there must be an example.

>He doesn't have to reveal any more top secrets, just point us
>to, say, a newspaper article from a reputable source like the
>New York Times, etc., which has reported such an incident.

>In fact, his claim is pure B.S., thrown in just to make the
>naive think that he knows more about what he is talking about
>than he does, or perhaps just to inflate the importance of his
>background.  This kind of stuff gets flung around all the time
>by figures in UFOlogy claiming special inside knowledge.

>I'm just asking Jim to document his claim. I don't believe that
>he can.


The Lord blesseth Maroons before buffoons... it is written!

You are all quite correct gentlemen. I cannot. The reason is
that I was corporialated to death at Singer Kearfott, oh, about
1970. I was killed while attempting to divulge secrets to Phil
Klass for the sum of thirty easy pieces.... Oh God, I'm so
ashamed!

Me, a guinsoid form the Bronx. A highly educated Catholic boy.
May God have Marcy on my soul (she was one of the thirty easy
pieces).

OK brave soldiers.... three more times... for the record....

_I WAS KIDDING_
_I WAS KIDDING_
_I WAS KIDDING_

Cheeses can't you guys .... oh, wait, I just got it!

_You guys are kidding too, right_?

Whew, now I feel better.  You had me worried there for a
minute or three.

Jim Mortellaro,
Traitor most foul





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 26

              Internet Explorer and FUFOR's FBI/NSA FOIA CD-ROM

From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 12:11:42 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 16:32:54 -0500
Subject: Internet Explorer and FUFOR's FBI/NSA FOIA CD-ROM


While working on additional CD-ROM projects for the Fund for UFO
Research and the Center for UFO Studies, I've found a problem
that affects the previously released FBI/NSA archive as well.
The following was recnetly posted to the FUFOR web site:

======
It has been found that an "undocumented feature" (which some
might call a "bug") has been identified in Microsoft's Internet
Explorer (IE). This could impact those trying to view the large
Adobe Acrobat (.pdf) files on the FBI/NSA FOIA CD-ROM. I would
note that only affects those who are using IE as their web
browser of choice. Those using Netscape Navigator do not face
the same limitation.

According to information available from both Adobe and
Microsoft, IE is unable to view .pdf files that are 4 MB in size
or larger, unless they are being pulled from a web server. When
large files of that type are accessed, the system will either
display an error message or a blank screen. Unfortunately, this
"feature" prohibits the viewing of a number of the files
contained on the FOIA CD-ROM being distributed by FUFOR
(primarily the larger FBI files). Files that are smaller than 4
MB appear to work properly.

There have been no reports of problems from any ot those who
have purchased the CD, with the limitation being discovered
while preparing additional releases. It is assumed that most are
using the Netscape browser, and that is why this issue hasn't
surfaced until now.

Once Adobe Acrobat is properly installed on your computer the
Operating System (i.e. Windows 95) is aware ot it as a utility.
This means that the Windows Explorer can be used to point to the
folder containing the large files on the CD, and then those
files can be selected manually and opened normally. It is also
possible to open the Adobe Acrobat reader and then use the
"File" / "Open" commands to open the files on the CD. Again,
this is a problem with the menu system, and not with the files.

The options outlined in the previous paragraph are the
recommended solutions offered by Microsoft on their web site.
While this limitation make the browser less usefull in the
establishment of an "INTRANET", it appears that there is no
hurry to try and resolve it through changes in IE. Fufor and I
regret any confusion that this may cause and would like to hear
from anyone who experiences a difficulty with the CD. Please
forward comments and suggestions to steve@konsulting.com or to
support@fufor.org.

Once again, this does NOT affect anyone who is using Netscape
Navigator, and one suggested solution would be to load Netscape
as a second browser and use it to access files such as those
contained on the FOIA CD-ROM.
======

I have two projects that were near completion, and they've now
been put on hold until I can make the necessary modifications.
I wish the developers at Microsoft had corrected this "flaw",
but I guess they're concentrating on their legal battle here in
DC.

Steve







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 26

                           RAMS: Re: NASA The Lies

From: "Robert A.M. Stephens" <sti3818@montana.com>
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 10:47:10 +0000
Fwd Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 16:50:21 -0500
Subject: RAMS: Re: NASA The Lies


(Darn you Peter Gersten. Okay, here we go. But, I say right now,
it will do no good to this man or anyone like him to re-answer
these questions because I'll work real hard on these when I need
sleep and his answer will be: "xxxx you stephens, you're a xxxx
liar." It's what everyone of these people say and I've learned
my lesson 2 months ago. Its religion to these folks and what I
say is not what they want to hear. I think you are troubled
<grin> for putting me through this over and over just because
you know I'll try and answer them in my awkward way since I
think at times someone is actually serious about it.)

(Note to 'JM': In my mail to you in answer to you tonight, I
posted it would do no good to answer any of these because you'll
just call me a liar after I work on them for you. I still very
much believe this. Peter Gersten thinks there is some good
points in this mail of yours so I will counter my assessment and
answer these to the best of my ability. At least consider them
before you respond with a one liner that I'm lying to you. I
think Peter is a part time dentist at times and uses no Novocain
nor does he have the vaguest compassion for a fellow lifeform
such as me.)

'JM' wrote:

Okay, 'JM', whoever you are, at the request of Peter Gersten,
here goes.

>To Mr. Robert A. Stephens:

Good start. No calling me a 'xxxxsucker'. Thank you.

>It seems that you have taken in upon yourself to defend NASA from
>Richard Hoagland and his claims.

No. He attacks NASA. I take issue. On balance, this is fair.

>Hoagland is an interesting figure,
>with some valid arguments about Mars and the Moon,

None. He immutably states a fact. He uses the very source (NASA)
as his proof, but this is strange since this is the source that
is lying about Mars and everything else. He needs to take his
own photos then, instead of using the 'liars' photos. This is a
conundrum he has painted himself into.

>and some off-the-wall
>ridiculous propositions, like Hale-Bopp and the December 7th landing.
>Your attacks on him focus on his faults(which are many) but forget to
>mention some obvious points.

>1.While Hoagland is the most recognized proponent for the artificiality
>of structures on Mars, he is not the first or the most scientific. The
>proponents include:Dr. Erol Torun; Professor Thomas Bearden; Vince
>DiPietro and Gregory Molenaar; Dr. Mark Carlotto; Dr. James Erjavec

You fail to mention the folks at JPL who first mentioned this
when the photos were coming in 1976. I mention no faults. The
personal data against Hoagland are from people who requested for
me to use their data in my debate on Bell since they have failed
to ever get a voice after repeated requests to do so. I have
accommodated them as best as possible. They do not want to use
their names publicly as they are physically afraid of what
Richard C. Hoagland has said to them in the form of threats. I
personally don't subscribe to this--which by now should be
rather obvious If I was threatened by anyone, any place, I'd go
and see the accuser up front and personal and asked where is the
beef. Simple.

I still fail to see a face in the latest photos from JPL. I
still hold, rationally I believe, that the vote must hold off
until we stand on Cydonia with a few backhoes and such and see
for ourselves what is there. This is fair since there is 143
million miles between us and Mars and this distance effects what
we are able to see for certain with our eyes.

At 6 miles from my home is a 'Face' on the side of the Mission
Mountain Range to my east. We all see this everyday. It is not
artificial. It looks like a human face in broad daylight at 6
miles distance. It is a rock formation.

It is entirely possible the varved escarpment on Mars at Cydonia
is a varved escarpment, based on what we know and what we have
to look at for reference on Earth.


>2.Why does NASA, a supposedly open government agency hoard the use of
>our resources and give exclusive use to its hand-picked friends in the
>private sector(i.e. "Principal Investigators")?

>The Hubble Telescope, IRAS and all of NASA's other toys are the property
>of the American taxpayer. When was their ownership signed over to Dan
>Goldin, Michael Malin and their clique?

I do not understand this question. Dan Goldin is the
Administrator of NASA. Malin is a free agent contractor as
myself. NASA went and took pictures of Cydonia as requested. The
results are at JPL. Where is the beef? I pay very hefty taxes
too since I am self employed. All NASA workers including Goldin
pay taxes also. So does Malin. This statement you've made
escapes me.

>3.Why does NASA no longer carry LIVE broadcasts from the Shuttle?

Because they are the smallest government agency and they do not
have the funding to carry all feeds from Whitesands transponder
and the other on orbit relay feeds. The USAF has also raised the
fees for this service to use their hardware and NASA could not
get congressional budgeting for it on a regular basis. To you
and other serious people who rely on this service for keeping in
touch with on orbit activities this is a rotten loss. Within
NASA, they have a fund tank for folks to contribute to the
public interface since so many NASA employees have families that
want the live feed. They rely on mission tapes now, most of the
time.

This feed was also how mission crew families were able to watch
their loved ones on orbit. Now, they get either the tapes or
still photos.

If you want it back, write congress since they are the funders.

>4.Why does NASA only release a trickle of images from Hubble, IRAS and
>MGS when these instruments are in almost constant use by NASA?

Hubble is in use 24 hours per day, 7 days per week, all year
long and is never ever down unless for repairs or new plugins.
Actual usage by NASA and its centers is on a sign up basis. This
means for 36 hours the University of Hawaii may have look time
reserved. Next, maybe the University of Tokyo. Then, NASA's
Goddard may have 4 hours reserved, then some other private
venture. NASA's actual on air usage of HST is about 10-15% of
the time at most. The waiting sign up list is long. Anyone can
reserve air time on Hubble. A list is available for requesting
reserved time.

What others do, which is 85% of the users of the device, is up
to them regarding photos. NASA elects to post all photos from
HST publicly. However, this is a small percentage of the
returned images that could be offered for viewing.


>5.Why was NASA obsessed with the constellation Orion(as correctly
>pointed out by Hoagland), and why did the original Apollo logo carry a
>prominent image of Orion?

Hoagland pointed out nothing. This statement that he did is a
oxymoron in and of itself. Think about this statement. If it was
there for all to see, it was then posted there for all to see.
Period. Be logical.

The forerunner of NASA, NACA, 1958, designated Greek symbols for
space flight because this made more sense than naming or
referring to mission and other flight off Earth by names of
flowers, or plants, or bridges. There was no metaphysical tie in
to symbolism in this. Few know that if you talk to visual
astronomers, which are few in number, they do not go by
constellations for stellar reference but by star locator mapping
and celestial dynamics.

>6.Why do many scientists believe that NASA is withholding images of
>Mars?

I don't know. I watched them come in by vector from here on my
other Mac set up for such via link (not the photos, but the
digital numeric vector) and they all came in as sent by number.
It would have been impossible to 'delete' something coming in
all at the same time from space selectively. I wanted to see how
many photos were coming and I could not get resolution time to
JPLs database to see the pictures as they came in for resolve
since I have nothing o do with JPL work wise, but the numbers of
those that got developed and the vector signatures for numbers
of photos gelled to the number. No bombs or errors or missing
photos.


>Florida Today, October 10, 1998
>Scientist Says New Mars Photos Being Withheld

> Speaking at the Space Coast UFO Conference at the Hilton Hotel in
>Cocoa Beach, Florida on
>Friday, October 9, 1998, Vincent DiPietro, who worked for NASA's
>Marshall Spaceflight Center for 23 years, claimed recent photographs
>taken by the Mars Global Surveyor were being withheld from the
>scientific community. DiPietro, a scientist who was first to evaluate
>photos of the surface of Mars taken by the Viking landers in 1976, cited
>a September Space News report on the growing number of planetary
>scientists disgruntled over the slow release of photographic data from
>the Mars Global Surveyor and "suggested that new images were being
>consciously
>withheld.

This is a fabrication. Their is a 6 month waiting for selective
review of all photos by the prime contractor. This is for all
government contracts made with the public. Malin or whomever is
the prime contractor has exclusive rights to make any financial
gain from any data so garnered. On the art side, I have every
right, even though NASA owns the original oil, to get any
proceeds from the exposure of my paintings in any fashion I deem
plausible and useful to my benefit. This is not uncommon---its
the way it is done. The prime contractor can release the photos
the second they are developed or the last second of the 6 month
grace period. This isn't a NASA rule. This is all government in
all agencies.

>Images are radioed to Earth and downloaded by Malin Space Systems, Inc.
>of San Diego,
>California, NASA's contractor. DiPietro criticized MGS camera operator
>Michael Malin, whose (NASA) contract gives him a six-month proprietary
>embargo on the images. He and other scientists reported Malin had taken
>numerous photos of the so-called Face on Mars, other than the single one
>released by NASA in April, that appeared to reflect natural terrain
>rather than artificial features. "This leads me to believe that we are
>not getting all the facts from Malin Enterprises," DiPietro said.

See above. By law, Malin can do whatever he wishes. Within that
6 month period.

>7.Why does a private company get a 6-month exclusive "review period" for
>images taken by a half-billion dollar satellite belonging to the
>American people?

Congress set and passed this law.

>What possible commercial or other value does Malin
>gain in those six months?

I don't know. Ask him. He is a very profound and solid man. I
trust him implicitly. He has worked very hard on this project
and I do admire him greatly.

>Does he get to make his own line of Martian
>t-shirts or breakfast cereal? Science is supposed to an open process
>where all people can participate. Scientists in various disciplines
>should have immediate access to these images.

Then bring this up to Congress. I agree.

>8. Why does NASA orchestrate an unscientific and blatant attack on the
>Cydonia researchers?

They do not ever. They postulate over and over. Think this
through. Are you referencing Hoagland's Space Program photos of
Cydonia, or NASA's. Since I'm nearly certain it is NASA's
photos, since I don't think Hoagland has a space program
personally, then they have taken the stand it is a geo-physical
structure until proven otherwise. I agree. This is as fair as if
someone categorically stated "it is NOT a face." I think we have
to hold off until we get there.

Is this remotely fair in your mind. If there was no NASA photos,
we wouldn't even have this discussion. Isn't that at least to be
considered?

>Why does NASA, to this day, maintain the ridiculous argument that the
>Face is a trick of light and shadow?

Because at 6 miles away the rock formation the Mission Range is
a trick of shape, light, and shadow. If this anomaly occurs
here, and it does millions of times on this planet, it stands to
reason it occurs elsewhere. But I'm talking a religion here. I
have no further explanation but what I offer and since you and
the rest are the real experts, somehow at 143,000,000 miles you
can do what I cannot. See a face in the latest photos. I see a
varved eroded escarpment in very sharp relief with water effect
and wind and erosion. It shows a heavy encroached area by wind
and storms in the 22 years since we were there before.

I have studied Cydonia under pretty well founded conditions and
I do not find NASA's assessment ridiculous at all.

>Dr. Stanley McDaniel has tracked
>NASA's peculiar and unscientific behavior in regards to Cydonia and
>makes several important points. First, Dr. Sagan did a propaganda piece
>in Parade magazine, which showed a deliberately distorted version of the
>Face "which had been processed using false color in such a manner as to
>diminish the resemblance to a face. This doctored image was then used to
>refute the reality of the facial appearance by claiming it was an image
>in which the face disappears."

I would use the doctored photos on Richard Hoagland website of
the latest photos of Cydonia to see if there is a artificiality
to it. My art side says no. Even when I have played with it on
Richard's site. In the 1976 photo it looks just like a face,
with the photo grainy, strong obtuse lighting, and the high
altitude photo resolution. Close up, the hillock looks more for
what it is.

>Second, Dr. Michael Malin posts an article on the web that seeks to
>disprove the existence of "teeth" in the Face, as shown by Dr. Mark
>Carlotto. Malin, like Sagan before him, concocts distorted images in an
>attempt to discredit the artificiality of the Face. "No matter how the
>article is interpreted, there is a very strong appearance of
>impropriety." Malin also refused to respond to McDaniel's queries about
>his hack job, and why he makes no reference to the work of Dr. Carlotto
>directly, but merely to an unnamed "tabloid".
>Third, when it comes to image analysis of Cydonia, NASA puts in the
>least effort possible:

>"Neither NASA nor JPL have ever conducted a serious study of the
>Cydonian objects. NASA refuses to acknowledge the work done by
>independent researchers. Apparently many NASA personnel are not aware of
>the work that has been done. Now we find an NSSDC[NASA Space Science
>Data Center] scientist using low-end personal computer software and bad
>contrast control to provide a crude enhancement of the Cydonian Face in
>an article that is supposed to be informative to the public."

I am confused by this above. I use a PPC Mac with a link to a
high end SGI box to get my CAD and other high end resolutions. I
know that Malin uses even better hardware firmware. I don't know
how to answer this charge by you.

>Science is supposed to follow the evidence, not make pre-judgements or
>offer biased and tampered evidence, which is exactly what Sagan and
>Malin have done. So, my question to you, Mr. Stephens, is how can we
>trust NASA at all based on those who represent it and their deceitful
>and misleading actions?

Since this is your conviction without more concrete proof by you
I would say if it vexes you so badly and you're so convinced of
this deceitful act, I'd go to work for this agency and find out
for sure. I did. I have. I say you are in error. Too, I have
stayed out of civil service and will never work this element so
I can be free to do what I want. (Like when I would not have
anything to do with the agency after STS-51L for nearly 2 years)

>9.Your own views on UFO's and NASA are contradictory. On the one hand,
>you say that NASA and the military have reams of records of UFO's
>entering and leaving Earth's atmosphere, of strange objects buzzing
>military installations.

You are in error. I only pointed out the DoD data that we are
basically forbidden to see. NASA, to my best judgment, after
nearly 20 years of intimate involvement, has no data of intruder
vehicles. If they did, the NRO or OIA would take this data away
from NASA and they have in the past during test flights of STS.

>On the other hand, you claim that NASA is
>honest and truthful to the public.

NASA lied during and after STS-51L. I will never forgive them
for this. I do not know them to lie since then or now. Ever.

>If NASA is honest, then why hasn't
>Goldin gotten in front of the press and shown any of this evidence?

What evidence?

>This should be front page news all over the world.

What news?

>Where are the videos
>of the objects, the testimonials of astronauts, military people, the
>Fence data that you claim to have seen? Why does NASA seek to censor
>all information and only occasionally throws a bone to the public?

I do not understand any of these rapid fire questions above.
Fence is NORAD, not NASA. What are you referencing?

>10.Why does NASA distort and suppress IRAS data? Why does NASA stay
>well away from the 1983 discovery of another planet in our solar system?
>Washington Post
>Mystery Heavenly Body Discovered, a front page story
>31-Dec-1983

>A heavenly body possibly as large as the giant planet Jupiter and
>possibly so close to Earth that it would be part of this solar system
>has been found in the direction of the constellation Orion by an
>orbiting telescope aboard the U.S. infrared astronomical satellite. So
>mysterious is the object that astronomers do not know if it is a planet,
>a giant comet, a nearby "protostar" that never got hot enough to become
>a star, a distant galaxy so young that it is still in the process of
>forming its first stars or a galaxy so shrouded in dust that none of the
>light cast by its stars ever gets through. "All I can tell you is that
>we don't know what it is," Dr. Gerry Neugebauer, IRAS chief scientist
>for California's Jet Propulsion Laboratory and director of the Palomar
>Observatory for the California Institute of Technology said in an
>interview.

>The most fascinating explanation of this mystery body, which is so cold
>it casts no light and has never been seen by optical telescopes on Earth
>or in space, is that it is a giant gaseous planet, as large as Jupiter
>and as close to Earth as 50 billion miles. While that may seem like a
>great distance in earthbound terms, it is a stone's throw in
>cosmological terms, so close in fact that it would be the nearest
>heavenly body to Earth beyond the outermost planet Pluto. "If it is
>really that close, it would be a part of our solar system," said Dr.
>James Houck of Cornell University's Center for Radio Physics and Space
>Research and a member of the IRAS science team. "If it is that close, I
>don't know how the world's planetary scientists would even begin to
>classify it."

>The mystery body was seen twice by the infrared satellite as it scanned
>the northern sky from last January to November, when the satellite ran
>out of the supercold helium that allowed its telescope to see the
>coldest bodies in the heavens. The second observation took place six
>months after the first and suggested the mystery body had not moved from
>its spot in the sky near the western edge of the constellation Orion in
>that time. "This suggests it's not a comet because a comet would not be
>as large as the one we've observed and a comet would probably have
>moved," Houck said. "A planet may have moved if it were as close as 50
>billion miles but it could still be a more distant planet and not have
>moved in six months time.

>Whatever it is, Houck said, the mystery body is so cold its temperature
>is no more than 40 degrees above "absolute" zero, which is 459 degrees
>Fahrenheit below zero. The telescope aboard IRAS is cooled so low and is
>so sensitive it can "see" objects in the heavens that are only 20
>degrees above absolute zero. When IRAS scientists first saw the mystery
>body and calculated that it could be as close as 50 billion miles, there
>was some speculation that it might be moving toward Earth. "It's not
>incoming mail," Cal Tech's Neugebauer said. "I want to douse that idea
>with as much cold water as I can."

I have no data on this at all. But I would definitely get ahold
of the HST team and find any data you can on this. This is
compelling and I've heard reference to this before. However,
NASA would be the first to talk about this sort of thing, not
hide it. This would a scientific windfall. Since everything I
say is a lie and this whole thing is a waste of both of our
time, then, why not yourself begin an adult dialog with the HST
team and find out about this. Do a research project on the
topic. Then, report online your findings.

If it is a galaxy, it is at least 2 million LY from us. If its a
proto planet, at these temps, which is a puzzle to me for data
as far as celestial mechanics go since there is no reasonable
way for it be this cold, it remains a mystery, if true. At 50
billion miles (over 500 AU) and with a mass that of Jupiter it
is beyond the fringe of the outer solar gravitational influence.

Go find out. If you don't start right off with HST as Hoagland
would, they will love to answer this as best they can.

>Why do various NASA satellites go "out of service" at very convenient
>times and then suddenly get "fixed" months later?

I don't agree with this assessment by you. Generally the
perception is in reverse of fact. Meaning, like NEAR, it
glitches at the last firing before coming close to EROS. This
isn't some trick, it is a failure because the craft fired the
RCS for the first time after long dormancy and then failed. The
failure is because it fired, not because of location. If logic
is not part of the issue, then "gee, look there, that craft got
to where it was suppose to be, fired its engine for entry, and
screwed up. Damn, NASA's always doin' that."

No. It failed because it fired, not because of where it was.

>In short, Mr. Stephens, Hoagland is a flawed character whose data should
>certainly be taken with several grains of salt. NASA, however, has done
>far worse in misleading and lying to the public and denying them their
>right to knowledge.

You are a liar with this statement. Sorry. I was there--still am
for 20 years.

>Knowledge which was paid for by them

It was paid for by you and me and Hoagland and all Americans.

>and should by
>all rights be available to all Americans. You, Mr. Stephens, could do a
>far better service to us by telling what NASA really knows and thinks
>than on hounding Richard Hoagland.

I disagree with this last statement. I have told what I know.
There is a hell of a lot more. Its good stuff. I have a tougher
hide. If NASA got this above they'd trash it for the same reason
I told you in the first mail.

Hope this wasn't too much of a waste of time for you.

Okay, Peter, best I can do.

sincerely,

Robert A.M. Stephens
NASA Documentation Program
Stillwater Mills
Contractor-Aerospace
406-745-3818
sti3818@montana.com
http://198.116.116.10/gallery/arts/samples.html






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 26

                           Re: A Tale from Africa

From: Ed Stewart <ufoindex@jps.net>
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 09:25:29 -0800
Fwd Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 16:59:27 -0500
Subject: Re: A Tale from Africa


>From: George Filer <Majorstar@aol.com>
>Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 22:54:11 EST
>Fwd Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 10:58:25 -0500
>Subject: Re: A Tale from Africa

To George Filer:

>As I just mentioned privately to another poster to this List,
>the Arabs have been aware of this phenomenon for a lot longer
>than we johnny-come-lately ufologists. They call these folks
>the "Jinn". Their legal status is even recognized in Arabic law.
>For an interesting web page on them, please see the following
>web page (not mine) ...

>http://www.qtm.net/~geibdan/newsd/islam.html

The article is the intellectual property of FSR and Gordon
Creighton, not ~geibdan, nor the people that constructed the
webpage, nor Blue Resonant Human who is given credit on the page
for the article submittal.

>I would like to use your article in Filer's Files. Please let
>me know if I may. Naturally you would receive credit for your
>fine work.

Shouldn't you be asking that from FSR and Gordon Creighton
directly?

In order to assist you here is how you can reach them:

mail: fsr_fsr@hotmail.com
http://www.corpex.com/users/archmage/fsr/fsrhome.htm

I suspect you won't find any objections, especially if you
provide the publication and the web page with a plug for
subscribers in your "newsletter". The electronic history of the
Jinns article goes back at least till 1989 when it was
originally placed into either PARANET or FIDONET echoes. I have
a copy of the electronic file captured in 1993. Going back to
the article. The following heading points to a Tom Mickus who
apparently was the first person to make an electronic copy of
the FSR article. Someone else may know more.

" JINNS.TXT
- The True Nature Of UFO Entities -
G.C. (FSR, 33/3) (SEP/88)
- FSR Editor, Gordon Creighton

Flying Saucer Review
FSR Publications Ltd,
P.O. Box 12,
Snodland, Kent
ME6 5JZ, ENGLAND


================================================================


Note: Italicized words are indicted by CAPITALIZATION such as
this. Footnotes are represented as "*1*". In this article there
are 7 footnotes, all in Arabic script, so I am unable to
reproduce them here. -Tom Mickus 11/26/89


================================================================

A BRIEF ACCOUNT OF THE TRUE NATURE OF THE "UFO ENTITIES"
--------------------------------------------------------

by

Gordon Creighton

This article, which appeared originally in FSR 29/1 (October
1983) is reprinted now at the request of a number of readers,
and to remind all our readers of what lies ahead for Mankind.
Ever since its publication, the article has been treated
throughout the world with total silence, and there is a general
agreement among all  Ufologists on both sides of the Atlantic
never to give it a mention.

FSR Consultant Dr Richard F. Haines expected me to print
his comphrehensive REVIEW OF EXPLANATORY HYPOTHESES FOR
UNIDENTIFIED AERIAL PHENOMENA, and I promptly did so. (FSR 32/2 -
1987.) But it might be noted that he did not deem it necessary
to include the slightest reference to my work in his survey, even
as a minimal gesture of courtesy.

Four of the leading experts in Ufology in the world have written
me privately to say that they think I am on the right track.
Only one of them - Ann Druffel - has had the guts to say so
publicly.

  EDITOR
                                  [Gordon Creighton]

----------------------------------------------------------------
>Regards,
>George Filer

Do the right thing George and notify FSR of your intentions and
give them the credit they deserve for the article.

Ed Stewart
cc: fsr_fsr@hotmail.com
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ed Stewart ufoindex@jps.net|So Man, who here seems principal alone,
There Is Something         |Perhaps acts second to some sphere unknown.
   Going On!       ,>'?'<, |Touches some wheel, or verges to some goal,
Salvador Freixedo  ( O O ) |'Tis but a part we see, and not a whole.
----------------ooOO-(_)-OOoo------- Alexander Pope, Essay on Man -----





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 26

                     Looking Back At 50 Years Of Ufology

From: Anthony Chippendale <ufo-net@clara.net>
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 18:10:01 +0000
Fwd Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 17:01:44 -0500
Subject: Looking Back At 50 Years Of Ufology


As we prepare to enter the new Millenium it is time that we all
stood back and looked at what we have accomplished during the
last 50 or so years of UFO research - nothing. We have
investigated sightings, abductions, mutilations and crop
circles. We have gathered numbers and statistics and analysis'
of UFO sightings, but we have not actually achieved anything.

We ufologists spend most of our time arguing about cases and
incidents. We argue on the Internet, on TV, and in the numerous
UFO/Paranormal periodicals that are published across the globe.
Unfortunately, we have not gained anything. All we know is that
we are being visited and violated by an alien race that we have
no control over. And we know that our governments and militaries
have lied to use about the existence of extraterrestrial life.

It is time for us to step back and look at the data that we
have, I do not mean analyse it, I mean look at it, look for
clues and patterns that might tell us something about the
activities of the aliens.

We should spend this last year of the Millenium learning,
sharing and gaining knowledge about the aliens. Scientists and
skeptics, abductees and witnesses should all come together and
share their thoughts, feelings and knowledge about UFOs and
aliens, instead of arguing about if they exist on Jerry
Springer!

Anthony Chippendale,
http://www.ufo-net.clara.net





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 26

                Re: Santilli Knew 'Tent Footage' Was a Fraud?

From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 14:02:23 +0000
Fwd Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 16:52:24 -0500
Subject: Re: Santilli Knew 'Tent Footage' Was a Fraud?


>From: Bob Shell <bob@bobshell.com>
>Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 08:48:47 +0000
>Fwd Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 12:36:40 -0500
>Subject: Re: Santilli Knew 'Tent Footage' Was a Fraud?

>>From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
>>Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 13:42:59 +0000
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>Subject: Santilli Knew 'Tent Footage' Was a Fraud?

Previously, I had asked:

>>Regarding the "Kodak cartridge" you mentioned above, was the
>>film regular 8mm? The reason I ask is that, to my knowledge,
>>16mm film was always used on reels and not cartridged unless it
>>was to be used as "split 8mm" in home movie cameras. If it had
>>been processed and not split it would, in fact, still look a lot
>>like regular 16mm film. The difference, of course, would be the
>>dual 8mm images side by side but would have unusual "pitch" or
>>sprocket hole spacings. Might this be a possibility? Or was it,
>>in fact, 16mm film?

Bob replied:

>Roger, again you amaze me. Cartridge load 16 mm, which holds 50
>feet per cartridge, is a common 16 mm format. It was used in the
>40s and 50s, and is still in use by a small minority today.
>There are companies which reload the cartridges for people.

>The cartridge which was given to Ray was a sealed Kodak load,
>which should have held the full 50 feet. Ray only returned some
>33 feet or so to Mike after having it developed. As I said, the
>remaining film, which is what would have actually gone through
>the camera, was not returned or accounted for.

Hi Bob,

My only exposure to 16mm has been in the professional arena. I'm
curious who made these cameras and if they were spring wound or
electric driven. The reason I ask is they sound like great crash
cams! Based on the description you gave, I was simply trying to
help get a clearer picture of the format in question, since you
mentioned the unusual pitch of the film's sprocket holes. Sorry
I'm not as familiar with the amateur formats as you are. I
certainly wasn't doubting your word, just trying to get more
info...

Later,

Roger Evans






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 26

                       Re: Big Al And The Grape Truck

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 12:35:46 -0600
Fwd Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 17:29:14 -0500
Subject: Re: Big Al And The Grape Truck


>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
>Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 00:52:07 EST
>To: updates@globalserve.net,
>Subject: Big Al And The Grape Truck

<snipped embarrassing stuff >

>So here is the way Al Lehmberg sees the alien view of Gripple!

>Attached...

>[] GRIPPLE.gif


Great suffering and baragroogus ZOT! This was something that I
put together for _Jim's_ amusement. I appropriated (artsy fartsy
talk for _stole_) this gif, and modified it to say "drink
gripple" -- not thinking for a _moment_ that he would send it to
the whole of the Atlantic seaboard (not to mention light hours
out into space) with my _name_ on it!

If somebody cries "foul" would you let them know it was your
mistake, Jim? Sheesh! I should have _said_ something. Oh well.
My apologies to the artist, I honor her. Jim! <slap>go to your
room! <=D6>! You can atone by contributing 25 dollars to the John
Ford Restoration Fund! <g>. Now pass that bottle over here,
'bro, and wring it out a little bit, will you?

Lehmberg@snowhill.com
--
Explore the Alien View!
Ponder the Wit & Wisdom of Ching Chow!

http://www.fortunecity.com/roswell/arecibo/46/

<Updated 18 January>

John Ford Restoration Fund -- Send your checks and
money orders to _me_, Alfred Lehmberg
(cut out the lawyers, they got their's) at:
304 Melbourne Drive, Enterprise AL, 36330. Strict records kept.

"Only thin, _very light_ envelopes with a return address will be
accepted <g>." ~~~ $225.00 pledged -- $125.00 collected ~~~

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see from
afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, while burning at the
fundamentalist's stake.






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 26

              Re: 1999 UFO Alien Abduction Conference Announced

From: John <jvif@spacelab.net>
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 14:14:31 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 20:57:38 -0500
Subject: Re: 1999 UFO Alien Abduction Conference Announced

>From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@get2net.dk>
>Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 02:02:26 +0100 (MET)
>Subject: 1999 UFO Alien Abduction Conference Announced
>To: updates@globalserve.net

>Source: "alt.ufo.reports".

>Stig

>***

>From: "Gerard Vanderleun"
><gerard.vanderleun@generalmedia.com>
>Newsgroups: alt.ufo.reports
>Subject: 1999 UFO ALIEN ABDUCTION CONFERENCE
>Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 11:49:06 -0500
>ef: news.get2net.dk alt.ufo.reports:26306
>
>The Intruders Foundation Presents
>
>THE 1999 UFO ABDUCTION CONFERENCE
>-  WHAT WE KNOW AND HOW WE KNOW IT -
>
>On Saturday, April 10, 1999, New York City will be the site of a
>day-long national conference on the UFO abduction phenomenon.
>Four of America's most respected UFO researchers - Budd Hopkins,
>Stanton Friedman, David Jacobs and Jerome Clark - will welcome
>the public to a cutting-edge presentation of current evidence
>for the reality and possible future of alien abductions.

(snip)

> A student discount is offered. For tickets and
>further information phone the Intruders Foundation at
>212-645-5278.
>
>IF - Intruders Foundation
>P. O. Box 30233
>New York, NY  10011

>212-645-5278

>e-mail: jvif@spacelab.net
>www.if-aic.com/conference

Hi All,

Quick correction to above copy. Some folks have trouble
reaching the page unless you add the (htm.) tagger at the
end of the web address. The correct URL for the page is:

http://www.if-aic.com/conference.htm

Thank you, and thank you Gerard for circulating our
'flyer.'  <G> I hope to see UpDates list members at
our upcoming conference.

Peace,

John Velez

________________________________________________
                                jvif@spacelab.net
INTRUDERS FOUNDATION/ABDUCTION INFORMATION CENTER
                            http://www.if-aic.com
"Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind."
________________________________________________





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 26

                             Re: Keeping Secrets

From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 16:07:10 EST
Fwd Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 21:03:48 -0500
Subject: Re: Keeping Secrets


>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
>Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 13:35:14 EST
>Fwd Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 17:35:01 -0500
>Subject: Re: Keeping Secrets

<snip>

>So to you, my good friend Bob, and the rest of this marvelous
>list, I have the following two things I would like to say...

>First, thank you for keeping me in money.  Ever since I started
>writing to UpDates, sales have soured... soard, soared.

>Second, if I can't get a good yuck out of you, then it's OK if
>you take me seriously.  It's really _OK_.  Just as long as you
>buy my Freshly Mades.

Well, Jim, I guess the "Yokes" on me!  I'm relieved about the
part about helping your sales sour (oops, I meant soar).  I'm
always interested in getting insight into what motivates folks
to get involved in this fascinating subject.

Clear skies, pal,

Bob Young





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 26

                             Re: Keeping Secrets

From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 16:27:54 +0000
Fwd Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 21:07:49 -0500
Subject: Re: Keeping Secrets


>From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
>Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 00:58:26 EST
>Fwd Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 11:22:16 -0500
>Subject: Re: Keeping Secrets

>>From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
>>Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 13:14:46 +0000
>>Fwd Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 16:09:36 -0500
>>Subject: Re: Keeping Secrets

>>>>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
>>>>Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 12:14:52 EST
>>>>Fwd Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 08:51:03 -0500
>>>>Subject: Keeping Secrets

Previously I had written:

>>Is it really your contention that the US Government never does
>>anything illegal, never breaks laws, has never had anyone
>>silenced simply because "known policy" says otherwise? Do you
>>really believe that the government even bothers to make all of
>>its policies known to the public? Or that they would publicly
>>acknowledge hurting anyone one, if not forced to? Do you really
>>believe everything the Government tells you?

><snip>

>Where do you think the term "clandestine operations" comes from?

Bob replied:

>He obviously wasn't talking about some off
>the books Iran Contra sort of operation, but a major defense
>project. And we aren't talking about 1950s nuclear tests or what
>possibly has or might happen somewhere, someplace, sometime.

>We're talking about Jim Mortallero's claim about standard
>security measures in use where he worked as a civilian.  I asked
>him for one, single documented case where such measures have
>been used.  Somewhere, someplace there must be an example.

This logic escapes me, Bob. Why must there be an example?

On the one hand, you try to differentiate this from an "off the
books" project. On the other, you continue to maintain that, if
there's no documentation, then it doesn't happen.

Now, I'm not trying to be a smart ass here, but follow me:

If a project is "off the books" would there not be a general
lack of documentation available? Using your logic, this lack of
documentation would mean that the project doesn't exist, right?
I mean, there's no proof. Yet you admit that "off the book"
projects exist or else you could not differentiate this project
from that group. You seem to selectively choose when lack of
documentation is a problem and when is isn't in your argument.

Could you possibly prove the existence of even ONE of the "off
the books" projects you know to be real? Not without
documentation. Yet, you know they exist; as we all know they do.

But we have no proof. Nothing.

Jim has admitted that his claims of punishment by death were a
joke, so in a sense you were right, but not for the reasons you
state. You were asking for something that you knew would not be
available, whether it exists or not. Then you used that lack of
availability as some kind of "proof" that you were correct that
the policy doesn't exist.

Things are not that black and white. Did it ever occur to you
that even though a project might be "on the books" its security
measures might be "off the books"? As Scott Carr pointed out,
the government does condone the use of "deadly force" to protect
its secrets as clearly illustrated by the sign outside of Area
51.

Do we have any proof that this force has not been used? And
where would we find records of that usage? Perhaps in the same
filing cabinet as the info on the Roswell crash or the plans for
reverse engineering of alien craft, etc, etc. My point is that
if such a record exists, the LAST thing they are going to do is
make it easy for you or me or Jim to get a hold of it. So lack
of documentation means nothing.

None the less, I'm was not arguing that Jim was correct about
threats of punishment by death regarding his work for the
government. I was taking issue with your logic that just because
you don't know about something, or just because there's no
documentation, or just because it's not a known policy, then,
therefore, it doesn't exist.

Nothing could be further from the truth in this day and age.

Later,

Roger Evans






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 26

                             Re: Keeping Secrets

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 99 12:11:13 Pst
Fwd Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 21:15:16 -0500
Subject: Re: Keeping Secrets


>From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
>Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 21:37:17 +0000
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: Keeping Secrets

>>From: Scott Carr <sardonica@erols.com>
>>Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 13:12:04 -0800
>>Fwd Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 16:24:13 -0500
>>Subject: Re: Keeping Secrets

>>>From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
>>>Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 23:26:59 EST
>>>To: Updates@Globalserve.net
>>>Subject: Keeping Secrets

>>>Jim, can you cite one single documented instance in which
>>>punishments such as this have >been authorized or applied in the
>>>United States of America?

>Scott points out:

>>.... one example
>>which I have personally witnessed is the simple fact that the
>>warning signs at the military border of Area 51 clearly state
>>"Use of deadly force authorized."
>
> <snip>

>>The simple fact that there is a sign which declares the right to
>>use deadly force should be evidence enough for the military's
>>position regarding the protection of their own privacy. As far
>>as I know, although it is authorized, deadly force has never
>>been used or even attempted along the border of America's most
>>popular secret base.

>It hasn't happened to me or anyone else that I know, plus it's
>not the known policy of the US government. Therefore, it doesn't
>happen.

>The obvious flaw in this logic is to suggest that it can't
>happen to the many if it's not known to have happened to the
>one. The key phrase here is "known to have happened".

Guys,

I think it is fair to ask for specific examples here. While our
government, like every government, has abused its power on
occasion, that abuse tends to get exposed sooner or later,
careers get ruined, and in extreme cases people go to prison.
I don't think this sort of paranoia -- it's hard to think of
another word for it -- does much for anybody except maybe
recruiters for the militia movement. It's possible to keep a
healthily skeptical view of government and to be properly
critical when it does wrong without going over the edge here.

Jerry Clark








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 26

                  Re: MJ-12 Documents - Same MO Then As Now

From: Ed Stewart <ufoindex@jps.net>
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 14:49:02 -0800
Fwd Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 21:28:49 -0500
Subject: Re: MJ-12 Documents - Same MO Then As Now


For conservation of energy I am reposting some of the problems
that exist with the first batch of MJ-12 documents in the hopes
that people will see that the validity of the arguments then
applies also to the now.

The subject was discussed at length for four months in 1996
before the list began archiving. The MO (method of operation) of
the proponents apparently has not changed much since then, but
we have new players on board that seem to be impressed with
their recent acquired MJ-12 "knowledge".

An example being the Woods who are on record from the
transcripts of the Connecticut conference, the web pages on Joe
Firmage's web site and the recorded appearances on the Art Bell
Show.

All but the Connecticut conference are available for
verification of the Woods' point of view and promotional point
of view on the internet.

I believe a close examination of those three sources mentioned
above do indeed substantiate Jan Aldrich's assessment (in
another message) of the "research methodology" employed by Dr.
Robert Woods and his son Ryan Woods, but they are not the issue.

The issue are the MJ-12 papers. Are they real and authentic, or
are they bogus and a continuing fraud perpetrated on the UFO
community? Let the games begin!

Ed Stewart
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ed Stewart ufoindex@jps.net|So Man, who here seems principal alone,
There Is Something         |Perhaps acts second to some sphere unknown.
   Going On!       ,>'?'<, |Touches some wheel, or verges to some goal,
Salvador Freixedo  ( O O ) |'Tis but a part we see, and not a whole.
----------------ooOO-(_)-OOoo------- Alexander Pope, Essay on Man -----





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 27

                           Re: UFO Communication?

From: Real Arsenault <aviano291@hotmail.com>
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 15:06:51 PST
Fwd Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 02:14:05 -0500
Subject: Re: UFO Communication?

>Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 04:00:46 -0800
>From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: UFO Communication?

>Dear Brian, Mark and Real:

>>From: Brian Straight <brians@mdbs.com>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto" <updates@globalserve.net>
>>Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 09:40:05 -0500

>>>Subject: Re: UFO Communication?
>>>From: Mark Cashman <mcashman@ix.netcom.com>
>>>Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 14:31:53 -0500

>>>>From: Real Arsenault <aviano291@hotmail.com>
>>>>To: updates@globalserve.net
>>>>Subject: Re: UFO Communication?

>>>Not to pick on you, R=E9al, but I don't think there is any such
>>>thing as "magnetized" light.
>
>>Laser light, can however, be bent by a magnetic field. It's the
>>quantum effect that most magneto-optical storage systems depend
>>upon.

>>Brian

>Dear Brian:

>Are you sure of that? I honestly don't know myself, but I never
>heard that light (chargeless photons) could be deflected by a
>magnetic field!

Larry,

Magnetic light deflectors has been used for the past 20+ years
by the scientific communities; please see the URL below for
details (GSI research center)

http://www.milliyet.com.tr/e/1998/12/27/engtool.html


>Is it only laser light, or perhaps all forms of light?

>Please fill me in a bit! Are you sure that the magnetic field
>deflects or bends the laser beam; rather than simply
>repositioning the laser gun?

>Would the same thing happen ( uselessly of course ) with an
>ordinary incoherent beam of light?

>I agree that there is no "magnetized light" of course. Neither
>is there such a thing as "gravitated light", yet Einstein
>correctly predicted that a gravitational field could bend beams
>of light!

>Quite a different proposition eh?


Another point, someone corrected me by saying that 'ELF' is
actually 'VLF' was definitely incorrect; you see, the Very Low
Frequency (VLF) range is from 3 khz - 30 khz; the range of
Extremely Low Frequency (ELF) is 3 hz - 30 hz, which just as
strangely happen to be the Earth's magnetic field. The Earth's
power grids (50hz & 60hz) are very near the ELF range, which is
why a "magnetic storm" from the sun could create a 'black-out'
on Earth, if powerful enough!

Cheers from Ottawa, Ontario.






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 27

               08-07-96: MJ-12 - An Estimate of the Situation

From: Ed Stewart <ufoindex@jps.net>
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 15:26:52 -0800
Fwd Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 04:10:47 -0500
Subject: 08-07-96: MJ-12 - An Estimate of the Situation


From 8/7/96

Addresses the issue of provenance and genesis as well as the
issue of linkage of date elements. Items missing from the
original MJ-12 papers since their appearance on the UFO scene
and items currently missing from the Woods publicised research.
Same "research" MO.

The question to Stanton Friedman at the end of the reposted
message remains unanswered to this day. I repeat the question to
any of the proponents of the new MJ-12 papers. Is there anything
in your promotion that provides multiple, independent,
link-by-link, verified and direct chains of evidence that
establishes the genesis/provenance of the MJ-12 documents?

Ed Stewart

_____________________________________
Date: Thu, 08 Aug 1996 06:13:32 -0400
To: ianr@global-data.com
From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ebk@nobelmed.com>
Subject: UFO UpDate: MJ-12 - An Estimate of the Situation


From: egs@netcom.com (Edward G. Stewart)
Subject: MJ-12 - An Estimate of the Situation
To: ebk@nobelmed.com
Date: Wed, 7 Aug 1996 18:40:15 -0700 (PDT)


              RESPONSE TO NUCLEAR PHYSICIST STANTON T. FRIEDMAN

In my next message is a short and curt bibliography of the MJ-12
saga as it evolved through the UFO press in the US as
represented by IUR, JUST CAUSE, MUFON UFO JOURNAL, and UFO
MAGAZINE (by no means do I claim that the list is all
inclusive).

After being a subscriber to each of the above publications for
many years and having had the opportunity to secure all of their
back issues, my perception is that all four publications are
genuinely dedicated to getting to the bottom of the UFO problem,
no matter where the chips end up falling.

The listing is sorted by date of publication to show how MJ-12,
the associated claims, and ensuing research was handled and
viewed by Ufologists, but the MJ-12 saga had been circulating
through the so-called UFO grapevine for many years before the
first item listed. When the story first broke out publicly most
had high hopes that MJ-12 was the long awaited "smoking-gun" for
Ufology.

By 1990, those hopes had turned to the realization of most
Ufologists that MJ-12 was nothing more than a "Wild Goose", as
characterized in an editorial by that title by Jerome Clark in
IUR. This in spite of valiant efforts by various Ufologists
invoking FOIA searches, visiting archives, interviewing of
experts and vigorous correspondence/research with various
archives, libraries and agencies.

Notwithstanding were nuclear physicist Stanton T. Friedman's
heroic and unprecedented personal efforts digging through the
bowels of many, many, many archives, earning a finder's fee of
$1000 from super-skeptic Phil Klass (Phil didn't know one pica
from another), and uncovering, to an unsuspecting ufological
community, that super-skeptic-astronomer, Director of the
Harvard College Observatory and alleged MJ-12 staffer, Dr.
Donald H. Menzel, knew Japanese; knew a fellow Massachusettsian
and a Harvard Alumni, Senator John F. Kennedy, by his first name
"Jack"; worked during WWII in the Navy as a cryptologist;
continued to carry his association in that field as a consultant
into what became the NSA; survived a loyalty hearing during the
McCarthy era after fellow Massachusettsian, WWII buddy and
alleged MJ-12 staffer, Dr. Vannevar Bush, vouched for him; and
after "Jack" became President of the United States, hinted to
"Jack" that he wouldn't mind an appointment, as well as later
tried to stick it to alleged MJ-12 staffer and
non-Massachussettian, Dr. Detlev W. Bronk, in the political
"buddy-buddy", Presidential appointments game.

To this day nuclear physicist Stanton T. Friedman, the original
researcher of the Roswell case, holds the personal conviction
that MJ-12 is real, but he has failed to convince most serious
Ufologists of his personal belief system in spite of the fact
that nuclear physicist Stanton T. Friedman has published
numerous and numerous papers on MJ-12, all personally
autographed and currently available directly from him; or in
spite of nuclear physicist Stanton T. Friedman's 14 years in
industry working for General Electric, Aerojet-General
Nucleonics, General Motors, Westinghouse Astronuclear
Laboratory, and TRW Systems on some classified projects. (and
knowing one pica from another)

That is simply outrageous! How can that be? All of the above is
true and thoroughly documented by nuclear physicist Stanton T.
Friedman, the original Roswell researcher, who has visited 15
archives in his quest, and who originally had the blessings and
support of most of the Ufologists that are now extremely
doubtful of MJ-12?

All true, but none of the above has any direct linkage to
establishing that the MJ-12 documents are real.

First, data by its nature is perceived by us interpretatively
and interpretations are subject to error. So, how do we know
what we know? We know what we know by multiple, independent,
link-by-link, verified chains of evidence. That chain has to be
unbroken from the premise all the way through the evidence that
purports to substantiate the premise. All the links have to tie
together from one end of the chain to the other end. One link is
broken or missing and the premise is not validated.

As an example, suppose Mrs. Menzel said that her husband used to
utter in his sleep "MJ-12, MJ-12", over and over again, but she
didn't know what it meant? Or a note in Menzel's handwriting
scribbled to himself that said "must tell Jack about Bush/MJ-12"
and found in his papers? Those would be direct links once
authenticated through independent research to support that part
of the chain that Menzel may have had something to do with
MJ-12, but nothing such as that was found.

Also, since no agency has stepped forward and claimed the MJ-12
documents as their own, ownership has not been established.
Ownership has also not been established at the front end. The
source of the documents is anonymous. There is no genesis to the
MJ-12 documents. The links are busted at both ends of the chain.

I know that Stanton Friedman understands the concept from his
guest appearance on the Art Bell Show re-broadcast on Friday
night, Aug. 2/3, 1996:

On Santilli-Autopsy film and the need for identification of the
source documentation/evidence and ownership claim.

Stanton Friedman: "What I cannot do, Art, unfortunately, is tell
                   you that this film was made by company XYZ, on
                   January 39, 1992 at this studio.
                   I don't have the genesis of it, but the
                   ------------------------------
                   burden isn't on me to prove I said."

Art Bell:         "No smoking film canisters yet!"

Stanton Friedman: "That is right. [giggle, giggle, giggle]"

No genesis, no provenance. Same as the MJ-12 documents, all of
them, including the Cutler/Twining Memorandum. Even Stanton T.
Friedman agrees that it was planted in the archives and did not
belong there. It could have been anyone, an insider or an
outsider. What seems to be clear is that it was planted there
after the review process was completed. The Memo is an alleged
NSC document. The reviewers would not have been able to
arbitrarily declassify it. It would have been pulled out during
the page-by-page review and sent to the NSC for their
declassification review. The National Archives has no record of
that ever having been done and neither does the NSC.

I know that Stanton Friedman understands the concept of security
control and that the utmost of care and control would have taken
place during the above declassification review of top-secret
documents from the same guest appearance on the Art Bell Show
re-broadcast on Friday night, Aug. 2/3, 1996.

Discussing the Santilli-Autopsy/Cameraman's claims of how he
came to have the film:

Stanton Friedman: "That is not how classified stuff gets handle.
                   They are not casual about it."
                   ----------------------------

(From the above guest appearance, it is also clear that Stanton T. Friedman
 understands where the burden of proof lies from the first set of quotes
 earlier: )

Stanton Friedman: "I don't have the genesis of it, but
                   the burden isn't on me to prove I said."
                   --------------------------------------

Just as it is not up to Stanton T. Friedman to prove the genesis
of the Santilli Film, that burden falls on claimant Santilli, it
is not up to anyone, but to the proponent that the MJ-12
documents are real to prove the genesis of those documents.
After visiting fifteen archives, Stanton T. Friedman has not
uncovered anything that establishes the genesis of the MJ-12
documents. And neither have the efforts of all other researchers
that have attempted to find direct linkage to the claim that the
MJ-12 documents are real.

In response to Stanton Friedman's last message to this mailing
list:

>Ed made totally unsubstantiated charges that the MJ-12 documents
>are riddled with violations of Security protocol.. including not
>havinga TS code number. This is absurd . There are many formerly
>TS documents without code numbers.
>I noted 2 in my "Final Report on Operation Majestic 12", though
>there are several others in it as well.

My apologies. Violations of security would only be an accurate
expression if the MJ-12 documents were genuine. Stanton Friedman
has yet to establish that to be so. But, Friedman's logic is
simply amazing! Let's try to follow it in a slightly different
context.  Walker was a security breach. Oh! But wait one moment!
There is Ames! Therefore, Walker is not a security breach?
Sorry, that dog don't fly. Maybe nuclear physicist Stanton
Friedman, who worked for 14 years handling secret classified
documents, expects everyone to believe that control numbers on
Top Secret documents were only used on Tuesdays, and every other
Friday? No, I am sure that is not it. He is on record stating:

Stanton Friedman: "That is not how classified stuff gets handle.
                   They are not casual about it."
                   -----------------------------

We are expected to accept that MJ-12 was on the order of the
Manhattan Project, or the H-Bomb. And we are expected to accept
that the people involved were responsible, top-notch specialists
in the highest of positions within the military and the National
Security Council, some of which had careers in intelligence,
concerned, knowledgeable executives with the best of the best in
staff support, well aware that unauthorized disclosure could be
expected to cause exceptionally grave damage to the national
security. That gives us folks in the trenches a big clue. The
higher the classification level, the higher the control. The
higher the classification level, the higher the accountability.
The rule is more control, not less. The rule is more
accountability, not less. Never less.

Not only that, but with the introduction now of the alleged
MJ-12 Field Manual we are expected to accept that MJ-12 was an
ongoing project/operation with field troops involved out on the
field packing saucer debris and aliens by the specs requiring
the Manuals to go along with the field operations, exercises and
training that expanded a minimum of seven years duration. And
during all that time, MJ-12 documents were never brought under
proper control? That means if one was lost, misplaced,
destroyed, stolen, left at the site, or fallen off the back of
the truck, a review or an audit would not discover the security
breach! Or for that matter, if any compromise had ever occurred!
Simply amazing! It would have been Friday night pinochle game at
the barracks for everyone. After all, EBE was safely packed away
and there was no accountability for the field manuals.

>I have also pointed to my  list of
>more than 30 details in the documents that were not known to
>anybody on the outside before the documents were received.

Do any one of them establish the genesis of MJ-12, or provide a
direct link which establishes the authenticity of MJ-12? Nope.
If they did we wouldn't be having this dialogue. Your 13 points
on Dr. Donald Menzel are irrelevant (see above). Same applies to
all of the details you enumerated. None provide a direct link
which establishes the authenticity of the MJ-12 documents or
their genesis. Besides, the real question should not be
"...before the documents were received", but "...after the
rumors of MJ-12 were being whispered throughout the UFO
community." That would be circa 1980, not after 1984. Until
genesis/provenance is established for the MJ-12 documents, the
important date is 1980, not 1984, and the possibility of a hoax
perpetrated by an "outsider" is just as valid as the possibility
of a hoax/disinformation by an "insider" with the window of
opportunity starting when the rumors first started circulating.

>If the documents were frauds, they had to have been prepared
>by insiders not outsiders.

Not necessarily so. As you are so fond of saying: "Absence of
evidence is not evidence of absence". Since the
genesis/provenance of the MJ-12 documents has never been
established, anyone with ample time to research an MJ-12 type
scenario could have found out about the details and constructed
a scenario around them. Not one detail provides a direct link to
the authenticity of the MJ-12 documents or to the genesis of
MJ-12. MJ-12 was floating around as rumor in the UFO grapevine
for many years before Shandera received the rolls of anonymous
film in his mailbox. Whoever felt motivated to, could have
constructed MJ-12, whether it was an "insider" or "outsider",
and had years to prepare and work bugs out of a working script.

>Considering the following papers, it is difficulkt to
>understand references to Just Caus, especially when noting that
>archival research is certainly not their strong point.

And neither is IUR's, MUFON JOURNAL's, or UFO Magazine's strong
point. But, since your heroic and unprecedented archival
research produced nothing that established the provenance of the
MJ-12 documents or discovered any independent direct link to the
authenticity of MJ-12, they have all turned away from MJ-12 in
the hopes of more viable pursuits. They all seem to understand
that the MJ-12 documents have no provenance, That is one of the
strong points of the above publications. Even though nuclear
physicist Stanton T. Friedman understands the concept, he
ignores it when it comes to MJ-12.

>l."Final Report on Operation Majestic 12",1990, 108 pages, $14.
>many documents, even a copy of Klass' check for $1000. for
>providing 10 documents in the large PICA type of the Cutler Twining
>memo. He set a limit of $1000.He hadn't been to the Ike Library..mail
>order research is costly and misleading.

Yes. But unfortunately, Phil Klass not knowing one pica from
another, does not do anything to establish the provenance of
MJ-12, nor does it do anything towards providing direct linkage
to the authenticity of MJ-12.

>2."Crashed Saucers, Majestic 12 and the Debunkers," MUFON paper,
>July 1992, 21pgs. 48 Ref. $4.

Is this the paper that establishes the provenance of MJ-12? Or
provides that chain of direct linkage documentation that
supports the claim that MJ-12 is real? It didn't when you
presented it at the MUFON Conference in 1992. Have you rewritten
it since? Whatever you do, don't take out the part that says:

      "Literally millions, if not billions, of classified
       documents have been created. Very few not officially
       declassified have been released because of the very
       tight security procedures."

And when they have been leaked, such as the Pentagon Papers,
provenance was quickly established. Not so with the alleged MJ-12
documents.

>3."Operation Majestic 12? YES!". Augusr l994, 37pgs.several
>documents. Detailed refutation of Kevin Randle's MJ-12 writings.
>$4.

Okay, you say it refutes Randle, but does it establish the
provenance of the MJ-12 documents? Or provide that chain of
direct linkage documentation that supports the claim that MJ-12
is real? Inquiring minds want to know.

>4."TOP SECRET/MAJIC" Hardcover July 1996, Marlowe and Co.,
>272p. Detailed review of the whole MJ-12 Controversy including
>debunkers such as Klass, Randle, Sagan, the USAF. $25.
Autographed. >Includes some never before published MJ-12
documents and has 10 pages >of references. All items available
from UFORI, POB 958, Houlton, >ME 04730-0958. All Prices in US $
and include postage. >Canadians can write UFORI at POB 3584,
Fredericton, NB E3A 5J8

Okay, we already know about debunkers but does your new book
establish the provenance of MJ-12? Does it provide the
independent direct links to show that MJ-12 is real? Both
American and Canadian inquiring minds want to know.

And why do you completely ignore in your "detailed review" the
early history of the MJ-12 saga? Not one word of the Aquarius
document and its connections to William Moore and Richard Doty.
Not one word of the unsuccessful attempts to sell a fiction book
based on MJ-12 by William Moore and a pseudonym co-writer,
pseudo-initials of "RD", Richard Doty perhaps?, and Bob Pratt
who was brought in to provide polished writing? Bob Pratt
quickly washed his hands of the MJ-12 saga when they were
publicly revealed to the UFO community in 1987 with the Aquarius
documents in support of them. And not one word in your book
about the CIA/MJ-5 Memo either? Whatever happened to that
document that was initially presented as supportive of MJ-12?
All were presented originally to the UFO community as all coming
from the same sources. Your "detailed review" of the
introduction to the MJ-12 documents to the UFO community in your
new book has left out quite a lot and appears to be highly
selective. Care to discuss why?

>I repeat, if Mr. Stewart has some reason for believing the
>MJ-12 documents are riddled with security protocol violations
>let him put them on the table along with just how he knows what
>protocol is.

Your question on how I know is totally not relevant and the
reason is simple. My knowing or not knowing, either way, does
not add any relevance as to whether or not the MJ-12 documents
are real. Just like Klass not knowing his picas does not provide
direct linkage to your claim that the documents are real. Your
question is nothing but a distraction, a ruse, a debating tactic
to throw the discussion onto a tangential course away from the
real issue. What is relevant are the alleged documents
themselves and whether or not they stand up on their own to the
level required to create a chain of compelling evidence directly
linked to each other, data point from data point, that supports
your claim that they are real. That is your burden and one that
you have yet to demonstrate to the ufological community after
having visited 15 archives.

Having said that, security clearances that one may have held in
the past are totally irrelevant to the establishment of
authority on the subject. All that a security clearance means is
that the individual passed a backgrounds check and nothing was
found in the individual's past that would keep that individual
from being granted the clearance. Background checks are more
stringent the higher the clearance being granted.

Also, having been granted a security clearance says nothing to
the effect that the individual ever was placed in a position
that required actual access to classified documents. What it
does mean is that someone earlier made the determination that
the position could, during the course of business, have a need
to access that level of classification. And who wants to wait
six months at minimum for the clearance approval? So, the
individual holding that desk/position/job had to have the
required clearance before taking over the assignment in order to
fulfill the requirements of the position. Nothing more and
nothing less.

Access is based on a need to know basis and critically
controlled. An individual reading a classified document would be
breaking security if the document was discussed with the person
sitting next to them, who could actually have a higher
clearance, but not a need to know. In the world of ufology there
are plenty of people out there who make it a point to taunt
their audiences with personal revelations of any past clearances
they may/may not have had. How often have we heard lines such
as: "I held a Cosmic Top Secret and therefore I was granted
access to this special vault where there was this book with an
orange cover". It is a strict appeal to emotion and authority
and it reaches only those that have never had a clearance in the
first place, a sales pitch more designed to enthrall an audience
than to establish credibility and also falling far short of
establishing a direct link that such a thing ever occurred in
the first place in the absence of independent verification.

Having said that, would you believe me if I told you I cruise
the Web? Hmmm!

Would you believe me if I told you I read a lot? Hmmm!

Would you believe me if I told you I have a consultant friend
who for many years held various duties in the military such as:
Top Secret Control Officer, Top Secret Destruction Official,
Security Manager, Classified Document Custodian, COMSEC
Custodian, and also held a Critical Nuclear Weapons Position?
Hmmm!

Would you believe me if I told you that this consultant friend
has also visited just about as many different archives as you?
Hmmm!

Would you believe me if I told you this consultant friend has
discussed many of these same issues with you, but some that I
have not brought up, last year at the Connecticut UFO Conference
and that you admitted to him last year that yes, there are a lot
of problems with the MJ-12 documents? Hmmm!

Would you believe me if I told you that it is in his expert
opinion

        (opinions are not decisive, but nuclear physicist
         Stanton Friedman seems to be impressed with people
         that have handled classified documents and have done
         heroic and unprecedented archival research)

that "the MJ-12 documents are highly suspect and their validity
is extremely doubtful and if genesis/provenance can't be
established they should not be at the core of UFO research"?
Hmmm!

Would you believe me if I told you I have handled classified
documents as part of my past responsibilities both in the
military and later in Civil Service within the infrastructure of
the Department of Defense in two different Commands for over 14
years, and that part of that time included briefing flag
officers, both on a scheduled basis and on demand, and
represented the Command at interservice meetings held with and
without the Air Staff on assigned projects, as well as preparing
correspondence on assigned projects for flag officer signature
to other Commands, the Air Staff, other Services, and various
Agencies outside of DoD, including OMB? Hmmm!

What does that mean? Absolutely NOTHING in terms of establishing
credibility or authority in relation to the MJ-12 available
evidence. It may well get a college auditorium all excited, but
it does not do anything to establish the validity of the
evidence. The evidence has to stand on its own with all the data
points linked to each other from one end of the chain of
evidence to the other. What it does mean is that I am not
exaggerating when I say that flag officer correspondence had to
be PERFECT! No mistakes, no errors. PERFECT, on the basis of my
personal experiences, but then again, I never had any experience
with any correspondence or briefings involving "MJ-12", or any
other sloppy alleged groups that have no genesis. Hmmm!

Well, if you answered yes to all of the above would-you-believe
questions, you would be right on the money.

>My many weeks at archives have certainly shown that there are many
>variations in all aspects of marking and handling highly classified
>documents. I already knew that from my 14 years in industry 1956-1970
>handling classified documents, but visits to Archives are very
>educational.
>Stan Friedman

My hopes are that someday a chain of evidence showing direct
linkage from data element to data element and genesis/provenance
will be established. For the last two decades since the first
whispers of MJ-12, ufology appears mostly to have stood still,
chasing one after the other alleged "revelations", all of which
share  a commonality with MJ-12: no genesis/provenance.

I have but one question for Stanton Friedman. Is there anything
in your new book that provides multiple, independent,
link-by-link, verified and direct chains of evidence that
establishes the genesis/provenance of the MJ-12 documents?

Ed Stewart

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ed Stewart - egs@netcom.com - | So Man, who here seems principal alone,
"There is                     | Perhaps acts second to some sphere unknown.
 Something Going On!" ,>'?'<, | Touches some wheel, or verges to some goal,
 -Salvador Freixedo-  ( O O ) | 'Tis but a part we see, and not a whole.
-------------------ooOO-(_)-OOoo------- Alexander Pope, Essay on Man -------








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 27

               08-08-96: MJ-12 - As Published In The UFO Press

From: Ed Stewart <ufoindex@jps.net>
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 15:18:34 -0800
Fwd Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 04:12:10 -0500
Subject: 08-08-96: MJ-12 - As Published In The UFO Press


The claim has continually been made by proponents of the MJ-12
papers that nothing of substance has been presented to show the
MJ-12 papers to be bogus and that the arguments against their
authenticity have only come from the skeptical community.
Nothing is further from the truth.

To circumvent, hopefully, the above erroneous position of MJ-12
supporters I offer the following reposted bibliography of UFO
literature that conclusively shows that the MJ-12 papers were
cracked as bogus by UFO researchers interested in disciplined
and critical research, and not by members outside the UFO
community.


--


Date: Thu, 08 Aug 1996 06:14:11 -0400
To: ianr@global-data.com
From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ebk@nobelmed.com>
Subject: UFO UpDate: MJ-12 - As Published In The UFO Press

From: egs@netcom.com (Edward G. Stewart)
Subject: MJ-12 - As Published In The UFO Press
To: ebk@nobelmed.com
Date: Wed, 7 Aug 1996 18:52:12 -0700 (PDT)



    A CHRONOLOGICAL LISTING OF MJ-12 AS SEEN THROUGH THE PAGES OF
         IUR (INTERNATIONAL UFO REPORTER) (CUFOS), JUST CAUSE,
          MUFON UFO JOURNAL, AND UFO MAGAZINE

            compiled by Ed Stewart 8/6/96

DATE   PUBLICATION/AUTHOR/TITLE
----   ---------------------------------------------------------------

12/85   CAUS BULLETIN, No. 2, pp. 2-2, Fawcett, Larry (ed.), Greenwood,
        Barry (ed.), "[Copy Of The So-Called "Aquarius" Document]"

12/85   JUST CAUSE (NEW SERIES), No. 6, pp. 1-8, Greenwood, Barry (ed.),
        "MJ12: Myth Or Reality?"

07/86   CAUS BULLETIN, No. 5, pp. 2-2, Fawcett, Larry (ed.), Greenwood,
        Barry (ed.), "Project Aquarius Confirmed?"

12/86   JUST CAUSE (NEW SERIES), No. 10, pp. 2-4, Greenwood, Barry
        (ed.), "Addendum Of "Aquarius" And Stealth"

  87   UFO, Vol. 2, No. 3, pp. 4-5, Cooper, Vicki (ed.), Stark,
        Sherie (ed.), "News: 'MJ-12' Nails 'Cover-Up'"

  87   UFO, Vol. 2, No. 4, pp. 6-7, Cooper, Vicki (ed.), Stark,
        Sherie (ed.), "Official Disclosures Hover On Horizon -
        Panel Foresees Government 'Uncover-Up'"

03/87   CAUS BULLETIN, No. 7, pp. 2-3, Fawcett, Larry (ed.), Greenwood,
        Barry (ed.), "Flash Flash Flash Flash...[On Aquarius]"

06/87   CAUS BULLETIN, No. 8, pp. 1-1, Fawcett, Larry (ed.), Greenwood,
        Barry (ed.), "The Aquarius See-Saw"

06/87   CAUS BULLETIN, No. 8, pp. 3-3, Fawcett, Larry (ed.), Greenwood,
        Barry (ed.), "[Copy Of PROJECT AQUARIUS COVER SHEET]"

06/87   CAUS BULLETIN, No. 8, pp. 4-4, Fawcett, Larry (ed.), Greenwood,
        Barry (ed.), "[Copy Of Cutler/Twining Memorandum]"

06/87   JUST CAUSE (NEW SERIES), No. 12, pp. 2-3, Greenwood, Barry
        (ed.), "Confirmation Of MJ-12?"

06/87   JUST CAUSE (NEW SERIES), No. 12, pp. 3-4, Greenwood, Barry
        (ed.), "MJ-12 Yet Again?"

07/87   MUFON UFO JOURNAL, No. 231, pp. 11-15, Moore, William L.,
        "Majestic - 12"

09/87   IUR (INTERNATIONAL UFO REPORTER) (CUFOS), Vol. 12, No. 5,
        pp. 13-20, Friedman, Stanton T., "MJ-12: The Evidence
        So Far"

09/87   JUST CAUSE (NEW SERIES), No. 13, pp. 01-02, Greenwood,
        Barry (ed.), "The MJ-12 Fiasco"

09/87   JUST CAUSE (NEW SERIES), No. 13, pp. 02-07, Greenwood,
        Barry (ed.), "The Documents"

09/87   JUST CAUSE (NEW SERIES), No. 13, pp. 10-10, Greenwood,
        Barry (ed.), "Exhibit 1 [Executive Briefing
        Subject: Project Aquarius]"

09/87   JUST CAUSE (NEW SERIES), No. 13, pp. 11-11, Greenwood,
        Barry (ed.), "Exhibit 2 [Blank Cover Sheet
        Executive Correspondence]"

09/87   JUST CAUSE (NEW SERIES), No. 13, pp. 12-12, Greenwood,
        Barry (ed.), "Exhibit 3 [CIA "MJ5" Memo]"

09/87   JUST CAUSE (NEW SERIES), No. 13, pp. 13-13, Greenwood,
        Barry (ed.), "Exhibit 4 [Letter From Martin M.
        Teasley, Assistant Director Eisenhower Library,
        August 7, 1987]"

09/87   JUST CAUSE (NEW SERIES), No. 13, pp. 14-14, Greenwood,
        Barry (ed.), "Exhibit 5A [Special Classified
        Executive Order #092447]"

09/87   JUST CAUSE (NEW SERIES), No. 13, pp. 14-14, Greenwood,
        Barry (ed.), "Exhibit 5B [Truman/Forrestal
        Memorandum, September 24, 1947]"

09/87   JUST CAUSE (NEW SERIES), No. 13, pp. 15-15, Greenwood,
        Barry (ed.), "Exhibit 6 [Letter From Benedict K.
        Zobrist, Director Truman Library]"

09/87   JUST CAUSE (NEW SERIES), No. 13, pp. 15-15, Greenwood,
        Barry (ed.), "Exhibit 7 [06 December, 1950
        Report Of A UFO Crash]"

09/87   JUST CAUSE (NEW SERIES), No. 13, pp. 16-16, Greenwood,
        Barry (ed.), "Exhibit 8 [Cutler/Twining Memo,
        July 14, 1954]"

09/87   JUST CAUSE (NEW SERIES), No. 13, pp. 17-18, Greenwood,
        Barry (ed.), "Exhibit 9 [Letter: Martin M. Teasley,
        Assistant Director Eisenhower Library, July 13, 1987]"

09/87   JUST CAUSE (NEW SERIES), No. 13, pp. 19-21, Greenwood,
        Barry (ed.), "Exhibit 10 [Letter: Reference Report
        On MJ-12, July 22, 1987, Jo Ann Williamson, Chief,
        Military Reference Branch, National Archives]"

09/87   JUST CAUSE (NEW SERIES), No. 13, pp. 22-22, Greenwood,
        Barry (ed.), "Exhibit 11 [Sample Of Press
        Coverage On MJ-12]"

09/87   JUST CAUSE (NEW SERIES), No. 13, pp. 7-8, Greenwood,
        Barry (ed.), "Discussion"

09/87   JUST CAUSE (NEW SERIES), No. 13, pp. 8-9, Greenwood,
        Barry (ed.), "A Disturbing Revelation"

09/87   JUST CAUSE (NEW SERIES), No. 13, pp. 9-9, Greenwood,
        Barry (ed.), "Final Word"

11/87   MUFON UFO JOURNAL, No. 235, pp. 9-11, Clark, Jerome,
        "MJ-12 Jury Still Out"

12/87   CAUS BULLETIN, No. 9, pp. 2-4, Howe, Linda Moulton,
        "Letter: [On Meeting With Special Agent Richard
        Doty on April 1983/MJ-12 Connection]"

12/87   JUST CAUSE (NEW SERIES), No. 14, pp. 1-2, Greenwood,
        Barry (ed.), "Editorial"

12/87   MUFON UFO JOURNAL, No. 236, pp. 10-16, Greenwood,
        Barry J., "MJ-12 Magic Act"

01/88   IUR (INTERNATIONAL UFO REPORTER) (CUFOS), Vol. 13, No. 1,
        pp. 20-24, Friedman, Stanton T., "The
        Secret Life Of Donald H. Menzel"

01/88   MUFON UFO JOURNAL, No. 237, pp. 21-21, Farish, Lucius,
        "In Others' Words: OMNI, 1987/11,
        Anti-Matter/UFO Update On MJ-12 Controversy"

03/88   JUST CAUSE (NEW SERIES), No. 15, pp. 1-2, Greenwood,
        Barry (ed.), "Editorial"

03/88   JUST CAUSE (NEW SERIES), No. 15, pp. 2-5, Greenwood,
        Barry (ed.), "CAUS Response [To Stan Friedman's
        36 Point List]"

03/88   JUST CAUSE (NEW SERIES), No. 15, pp. 6-6, Greenwood,
        Barry (ed.), "James S. Lay Letter, July 14, 1954"

03/88   JUST CAUSE (NEW SERIES), No. 15, pp. 7-8, Greenwood,
        Barry (ed.), "Stanton T. Friedman's 10/12/87 Basic
        Assumptions Of CAUS"

03/88   MUFON UFO JOURNAL, No. 239, pp. 23-23, Clark, Jerome,
        "Letter: [On "MJ-12 Jury Still Out]"

05/88   IUR (INTERNATIONAL UFO REPORTER) (CUFOS), Vol. 13, No. 3,
        pp. 12-17, Friedman, Stanton T., "MJ-12
        Debunking Fiasco"

05/88   IUR (INTERNATIONAL UFO REPORTER) (CUFOS), Vol. 13, No. 3,
        pp. 24-24, Forsythe, Scott M., "Letter:
        Secret Lives"

05/88   UFO, Vol. 3, No. 2, pp. 8-8, Cooper, Vicki (ed.), Stark,
        Sherie (ed.), "Expert Validation of MJ-12 Memo"

05/88   UFO, Vol. 3, No. 2, pp. 8-8, Maccabbee, Bruce S.,
        "A Question Of Motive"

06/88   JUST CAUSE (NEW SERIES), No. 16, pp. 1-1, Greenwood,
        Barry (ed.), "Editorial"

06/88   JUST CAUSE (NEW SERIES), No. 16, pp. 2-4, Greenwood,
        Barry (ed.), "Letter From Richard Doty, 3/3/88"

06/88   JUST CAUSE (NEW SERIES), No. 16, pp. 5-5, Greenwood,
        Barry (ed.), "Notarized Declaration By Linda
        Moulton Howe"

06/88   JUST CAUSE (NEW SERIES), No. 16, pp. 6-6, Greenwood,
        Barry (ed.), "Letter From Linda Moulton Howe To
        Richard Doty, May 14, 1983"

06/88   JUST CAUSE (NEW SERIES), No. 16, pp. 7-7, Greenwood,
        Barry (ed.), "Peter Gersten's Version Of Meetings
        With Richard Doty January 1983"

07/88   IUR (INTERNATIONAL UFO REPORTER) (CUFOS), Vol. 13, No. 4,
        pp. 19-19, Wescott, Roger W., "Letter:
        Statement From Roger Wescott"

07/88   IUR (INTERNATIONAL UFO REPORTER) (CUFOS), Vol. 13, No. 4,
        pp. 24-24, Parks, Brian, "Letter: MJ-12"

07/88   MUFON 1988 INTERNATIONAL UFO SYMPOSIUM PROCEEDINGS:
        ABDUCTIONS AND THE E.T. HYPOTHESIS, pp. 205-241,
        Moore, William L., Friedman, Stanton T., "MJ-12 And
        Phil Klass: What Are The Facts?"

07/88   MUFON UFO JOURNAL, No. 243, pp. 16-17, Bletchman, Robert H.,
        "Linguistics Expert Vouches For MJ-12 Briefing Paper"

07/88   UFO, Vol. 3, No. 3, pp. 03-03, Friedman, Stanton T.,
        "Letter: [On MJ-12 Article UFO, Vol.3, No. 2"

07/88   UFO, Vol. 3, No. 3, pp. 06-07, Cooper, Vicki (ed.), Stark,
        Sherie (ed.), "People: In Focus...Lee Graham"

07/88   UFO, Vol. 3, No. 3, pp. 26-31, Cooper, Vicki, "Stalking
        The 'Ultimate Secret' - Ufologists Encounter
        'Intelligence' Maze"

07/88   UFO, Vol. 3, No. 3, pp. 30-30, Cooper, Vicki, "MJ-12
        Climax? Stand By!"

07/88   UFO, Vol. 3, No. 3, pp. 31-31, Cooper, Vicki,
        "Adventures At Kirtland"

07/88   UFO, Vol. 3, No. 3, pp. 32-37, Friedman, Stanton T.,
        "Document Digging: Research Challenge To Media"

07/88   UFO, Vol. 3, No. 3, pp. 35-35, Friedman, Stanton T.,
        "UFO Debunker, CIA Hired Hand: Mystery Man Of MJ-12"

09/88   UFO, Vol. 3, No. 4, pp. 3-3, Lewis, Gerald, "Letter:
        [On Hopes For MJ-12]"

11/88   UFO, Vol. 3, No. 5, pp. 4-4, Ecker, Don, "News: Alien
        Briefing For Ex-Spies"

11/88   UFO, Vol. 3, No. 5, pp. 5-5, Cooper, Vicki (ed.),
        "Alleged Government Documents: Funds Sought For MJ-12
        Investigation"

12/88   JUST CAUSE (NEW SERIES), No. 18, pp. 4-5, Greenwood,
        Barry (ed.), "MJ-12 Update [On Dr. Wescott]"

12/88   JUST CAUSE (NEW SERIES), No. 18, pp. 5-5, Greenwood,
        Barry (ed.), "UFO Cover Up - Live!"

01/89   MUFON UFO JOURNAL, No. 249, pp. 8-9, Moore, William L.,
        "MJ-12: An Open Letter"

03/89   JUST CAUSE (NEW SERIES), No. 19, pp. 3-3, Greenwood,
        Barry (ed.), "FBI Opinion On MJ-12"

03/89   JUST CAUSE (NEW SERIES), No. 19, pp. 3-4, Greenwood,
        Barry (ed.), "More On MJ-12"

03/89   JUST CAUSE (NEW SERIES), No. 19, pp. 5-6, Greenwood,
        Barry (ed.), "MJ-12 In Japan?"

03/89   MUFON UFO JOURNAL, No. 251, pp. 21-21, Maccabee, Bruce S.,
        "Letter: [On MUFON's Support Of Stanton Friedman's
        Research On MJ-12]"

03/89   UFO, Vol. 4, No. 1, pp. 3-3, Friedman, Stanton T.,
        "Letter: [On Visiting Archives]"

06/89   JUST CAUSE (NEW SERIES), No. 20, pp. 3-4, Greenwood,
        Barry (ed.), "MJ-12 Update"

06/89   JUST CAUSE (NEW SERIES), No. 20, pp. 8-8, Greenwood,
        Barry (ed.), "Letter From Edward J. Reese, Military
        Reference Branch, National Archives"

06/89   MUFON UFO JOURNAL, No. 254, pp. 3-11, Hastings, Robert,
        "MJ-12 Affair, The: Facts, Questions, Comments"

07/89   MUFON 1989 INTERNATIONAL UFO SYMPOSIUM PROCEEDINGS: THE UFO
        COVER UP: A GOVERNMENT CONSPIRACY?, No. , pp. 81-112,
        Friedman, Stanton T., "Update On Operation Majestic-12"

08/89   MUFON UFO JOURNAL, No. 256, pp. 14-16, Sider, Jean, Bullard,
        Thomas E. (trans.), "Majestic & Moore: Not Guilty!"

09/89   IUR (INTERNATIONAL UFO REPORTER) (CUFOS), Vol. 14, No. 5,
        pp. 3-3, Clark, Jerome, "Editorial: Wild Goose"

09/89   JUST CAUSE (NEW SERIES), No. 21, pp. 1-9, Greenwood,
        Barry (ed.), "A Majestic Deception"

09/89   JUST CAUSE (NEW SERIES), No. 21, pp. 10-10, Greenwood,
        Barry (ed.), "Final Word"

09/89   JUST CAUSE (NEW SERIES), No. 21, pp. 11-12, Greenwood,
        Barry (ed.), "Exhibit 1 [The Craig Weitzel Letter]"

09/89   JUST CAUSE (NEW SERIES), No. 21, pp. 13-13, Greenwood,
        Barry (ed.), "Exhibit 2 [AFOSI Summary of
        Kirtland AFB 13 Aug 80 Incident]"

09/89   JUST CAUSE (NEW SERIES), No. 21, pp. 14-14, Greenwood,
        Barry (ed.), "Exhibit 3 [AFOSI Summary of
        Kirtland AFB 8 Aug-3 Sep 80 Sightings]"

09/89   JUST CAUSE (NEW SERIES), No. 21, pp. 15-16, Greenwood,
        Barry (ed.), "Letter From Stanton T. Friedman On
        Just Cause, Number 20, June 1989 Re Majestic 12,
        Dated 7/19/89"

09/89   JUST CAUSE (NEW SERIES), No. 21, pp. 9-10, Greenwood,
        Barry (ed.), "Alternative Motives?"

09/89   MUFON UFO JOURNAL, No. 257, pp. 16-17, Friedman, Stanton T.,
        "FUFOR Progress Report - MJ-12"

09/89   UFO, Vol. 4, No. 4, pp. 4-5, Cooper, Vicki (ed.), Stark,
        Sherie (ed.), "News: UFO Researcher's 'Confessional' -
        Disinformation Ploy Revealed"

10/89   MUFON UFO JOURNAL, No. 258, pp. 25-26, Mauge, Claude,
        "Letter: [On Robert Hasting On MJ-12]"

01/90   MUFON UFO JOURNAL, No. 261, pp. 15-16, Crain, T. Scott Jr.,
        "MJ-12 Informant, An"

01/90   MUFON UFO JOURNAL, No. 261, pp. 17-20, Todd, Robert G.,
        "MJ-12 Rebuttal"

01/90   UFO, Vol. 5, No. 1, pp. 14-14, Moore, William L.,
        "Forum: Discussing The Disinformers [Bill Moore]"

01/90   UFO, Vol. 5, No. 1, pp. 15-15, Greenwood, Barry, "Forum:
        Discussing The Disinformers [Bill Moore]"

01/90   UFO, Vol. 5, No. 1, pp. 15-15, Schaffner, Ron, "Forum:
        Discussing The Disinformers [Bill Moore]"

01/90   UFO, Vol. 5, No. 1, pp. 15-16, Friedman, Stanton, "Forum:
        Discussing The Disinformers [Bill Moore]"

01/90   UFO, Vol. 5, No. 1, pp. 16-16, Graham, Lee, "Forum:
        Discussing The Disinformers [Bill Moore]"

01/90   UFO, Vol. 5, No. 1, pp. 16-16, Jamieson, Michael, "Forum:
        Discussing The Disinformers [Bill Moore]"

01/90   UFO, Vol. 5, No. 1, pp. 17-17, Cooper, Vicki, "Forum:
        Discussing The Disinformers [Bill Moore]"

01/90   UFO, Vol. 5, No. 1, pp. 17-17, Smith, Robert, "Forum:
        Discussing The Disinformers [Bill Moore]"

01/90   UFO, Vol. 5, No. 1, pp. 17-18, Sheridan, Sally, "Forum:
        Discussing The Disinformers [Bill Moore]"

01/90   UFO, Vol. 5, No. 2, pp. 03-03, Parks, Brian, "Letter:
        [On Forum Observations in UFO, Vol. 5, No. 1]"

01/90   UFO, Vol. 5, No. 2, pp. 03-03, Todd, Robert G., "Letter:
        [On Stanton Friedman's Observations in UFO, Vol. 5,
        No. 1]"

01/90   UFO, Vol. 5, No. 2, pp. 10-11, Allan, Christopher D.,
        "Forum: U.S. Government And Disinformation: Not Guilty"

03/90   IUR (INTERNATIONAL UFO REPORTER) (CUFOS), Vol. 15, No. 2,
        pp. 04-12, Nickell, Joe, Fischer, John F.,
        "The Crashed-Saucer Forgeries"

03/90   IUR (INTERNATIONAL UFO REPORTER) (CUFOS), Vol. 15, No. 2,
        pp. 13-16, Friedman, Stanton T., "MJ-12: The Jury
        Is Still Out"

03/90   IUR (INTERNATIONAL UFO REPORTER) (CUFOS), Vol. 15, No. 2,
        pp. 17-20, Moore, William L., "Innocent On All Counts"

03/90   IUR (INTERNATIONAL UFO REPORTER) (CUFOS), Vol. 15, No. 2,
        pp. 24-24, Maron, Gene, "Letter: Disinformation"

03/90   JUST CAUSE (NEW SERIES), No. 23, pp. 1-3, Todd, Robert G.,
        "Another "Smoking Gun"?"

03/90   JUST CAUSE (NEW SERIES), No. 23, pp. 10-10, Greenwood,
        Barry (ed.), "Letter From Frank H. Batten, Jr,
        Chief, FOIA/PA Release Branch, Bolling Air Force Base"

03/90   JUST CAUSE (NEW SERIES), No. 23, pp. 4-5, Greenwood,
        Barry (ed.), "On Timothy Good's Source Of The
        MJ-12 Briefing Paper"

03/90   JUST CAUSE (NEW SERIES), No. 23, pp. 6-8, Greenwood,
        Barry (ed.), "Briefing Document Pages 001-003
        From FOCUS, April 30, 1987"

03/90   JUST CAUSE (NEW SERIES), No. 23, pp. 9-9, Greenwood,
        Barry (ed.), "Briefing Document Pages 001-003
        From ABOVE TOP SECRET By Timothy Good, pgs. 541-543,
        (British Edition)"

04/90   MUFON UFO JOURNAL, No. 264, pp. 7-9, Friedman, Stanton T.,
        "MJ-12: Rebutting A Rebuttal"

05/90   IUR (INTERNATIONAL UFO REPORTER) (CUFOS), Vol. 15, No. 3,
        pp. 15-15, Todd, Robert G., "A Forum On MJ-12"

05/90   IUR (INTERNATIONAL UFO REPORTER) (CUFOS), Vol. 15, No. 3,
        pp. 15-16, Rodeghier, Mark, "A Forum On MJ-12"

05/90   IUR (INTERNATIONAL UFO REPORTER) (CUFOS), Vol. 15, No. 3,
        pp. 16-17, Greenwood, Barry, "A Forum On MJ-12"

05/90   IUR (INTERNATIONAL UFO REPORTER) (CUFOS), Vol. 15, No. 3,
        pp. 17-17, Maccabee, Bruce, "A Forum On MJ-12"

06/90   JUST CAUSE (NEW SERIES), No. 24, pp. 3-7, Greenwood,
        Barry (ed.), "On Dating Abnormalities By MJ-12
        Proponents"

07/90   MUFON UFO JOURNAL, No. 267, pp. 11-11, Stacy, Dennis W.
        (ed.), "News'n'Views - MJ-12 Report"

09/90   JUST CAUSE (NEW SERIES), No. 25, pp. 1-4, Greenwood,
        Barry (ed.), "Out There"

09/90   JUST CAUSE (NEW SERIES), No. 25, pp. 5-5, Greenwood,
        Barry (ed.), "Editorial [On Critical Coverage Of
        MJ-12 By JUST CAUSE]"

09/90   JUST CAUSE (NEW SERIES), No. 25, pp. 6-6, Greenwood,
        Barry (ed.), "FUND Releases MJ-12 Report"

01/91   UFO, Vol. 6, No. 1, pp. 30-32, Hall, Richard H.,
        "In Defense Of MJ-12"

03/91   JUST CAUSE (NEW SERIES), No. 27, pp. 5-8, Smith, Dr. Willy,
        "A Critical Commentary [On Truman Signature]"

03/91   UFO, Vol. 6, No. 2, pp. 31-33, Cooper, Vicki, "Is It A UFO
        Project? The Strange Case Of Aquarius 'D'"

03/91   UFO, Vol. 6, No. 2, pp. 35-36, Stacy, Dennis, "Book Reviews:
        "The MJ-12 Documents - An Analytical Report"
        By William L. Moore And Jaime H. Shandera"

04/91   MUFON UFO JOURNAL, No. 276, pp. 18-19, Crain, T. Scott Jr.,
        "News'n'Views - The Book On MJ-12"

05/91   IUR (INTERNATIONAL UFO REPORTER) (CUFOS), Vol. 16, No. 3,
        pp. 12-13, Spickler, Ted R., "The Truman MJ-12 Letter"

05/91   UFO, Vol. 6, No. 3, pp. 3-3, Parks, Brian, "Letter: [On
        Article "Strange Case Of Aquarius D." UFO, Vol. 6, No. 2]"

09/91   UFO, Vol. 6, No. 5, pp. 39-39, Cooper, Vicki, "Book Review:
        "UFOs, MJ-12 And The Government - A Report
        On Government Involvement In UFO Crash Retrievals" By
        Grant Cameron And T. Scott Crain"

12/91   JUST CAUSE (NEW SERIES), No. 30, pp. 1-5, Greenwood, Barry
        (ed.), "Document Fakery"

01/92   UFO, Vol. 7, No. 1, pp. 11-12, Ecker, Don, "News Commentary:
        Source Confesses Role As 'Controlled Informant'"

01/92   UFO, Vol. 7, No. 1, pp. 5-5, Crain, T. Scott Jr., "Letter:
        [On Review of "UFOs, MJ-12 And The Government"]"

01/92   UFO, Vol. 7, No. 1, pp. 8-10, Graham, Lee, "Full Nine Pages:
        The Aquarius Document"

07/92   MUFON 1992 INTERNATIONAL UFO SYMPOSIUM PROCEEDINGS: UFOs: THE
        ULTIMATE MYSTERY OF THE MILLENNIA, No. , pp. 68-87,
        Friedman, Stanton T., "Crashed Saucers, Majestic-12 And
        The Debunkers"

07/92   UFO, Vol. 7, No. 4, pp. 13-14, Hall, Richard H., "Hall's
        Corner [Re: Personal Skepticism On MJ-12]"

09/92   UFO, Vol. 7, No. 5, pp. 10-11, Hall, Richard H.,
        "Hall's Corner [Re: Activities of Richard Doty And Bill
        Moore]"

11/92   UFO, Vol. 7, No. 6, pp. 9-9, Hall, Richard H., "Hall's
        Corner [Re: MJ-12 Documentation and Bill Moore/Richard
        Doty's Roles]"

05/93   UFO, Vol. 8, No. 3, pp. 5-5, Ecker, Don, "MJ-12 'Suspected
        Forgery,' Air Force Says"

03/94   UFO, Vol. 9, No. 2, pp. 40-41, Friedman, Stanton T.,
        "Researchers Can't Agree On Case's Validity: Crash At
        San Agustin [MJ-12 And The Plains Crash Paragraph]"

09/94   JUST CAUSE (NEW SERIES), No. 41, pp. 8-8, Greenwood, Barry
        (ed.), "Air Force Reacts Officially To Bogus Documents"

01/95   UFO, Vol. 10, No. 1, pp. 25-27, Graham, Lee, Regehr, Ron,
        "Going By The Rules"

01/95   UFO, Vol. 10, No. 1, pp. 27-27, Cooper-Ecker, Vicki (ed.),
        "Moore's The Pitiful"

01/95   UFO, Vol. 10, No. 1, pp. 28-32, Westwood, James T.,
        "Questioning Documents"

05/95   UFO, Vol. 10, No. 3, pp. 7-7, Allan, Christopher D.,
        "Letter: File This "Unclassified""

05/95   UFO, Vol. 10, No. 3, pp. 7-7, Friedman, Stanton T.,
        "Letter: MJ-12 Is Real!"

11/95   UFO, Vol. 48, No. 6, pp. 7-7, Cooper-Ecker, Vicki (ed.),
        "Friedman Announcement [Marshall Memo]"

03/96   IUR (INTERNATIONAL UFO REPORTER) (CUFOS), Vol. 21, No. 1,
        pp. 9-10, Randle, Kevin D., "The MJ-12
        Operations Manual: Another Forgery?

For Available back issues in stock and current subscription
information:

IUR (quarterly)         J. Allen Hynek Center For UFO Studies
                 2457 West Peterson Avenue
                 Chicago, IL 60659
                 Rates: $25 US, $30 Foreign

JUST CAUSE (quarterly)        CAUS
                 Box 176
                 Stoneham, MA 02180
                 Rates: $15 US, $20 Foreign

MUFON UFO JOURNAL (monthly)  Mutual UFO Network, Inc.,
                 103 Oldtowne Rd.
                 Seguin, TX 78155-4099
                 Rates: $30 US, $30 Foreign

UFO MAGAZINE (bi-monthly)   UFO Magazine
                 P.O. Box 1053
                 Sunland, CA 91041
                 Rates: $25 US, $32 Foreign

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ed Stewart - egs@netcom.com - | So Man, who here seems principal alone,
"There is           |   Perhaps acts second to some sphere unknown.
 Something Going On!" ,>'?'<, | Touches some wheel, or verges to some goal,
  -Salvador Freixedo- ( O O ) | 'Tis but a part we see, and not a whole.
 ------------------ooOO-(_)-OOoo------- Alexander Pope, Essay on Man -------









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 27

               08-12-96: MJ-12 - An Estimate of the Situation

From: Ed Stewart <ufoindex@jps.net>
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 17:23:37 -0800
Fwd Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 04:29:49 -0500
Subject: 08-12-96: MJ-12 - An Estimate of the Situation

I am taking this opportunity to address both the new MJ-12 papers as
promoted by Robert and Ryan Woods and the initial batch of MJ-12 papers
with another common problem they both have: the continuous position by
Stanton Friedman that TOP SECRET documents do not have to have control
numbers. This was discussed at lenght in 1996 and I am reposting the
data that Stan Friedman apparently has forgotten.

On the Art Bell Dreamland Radio Show, 1/10/99, towards the end and top
of the first hour:

Stanton Friedman:

     It is true of classified material that sometimes it has got a life
on it. That is, ten years later it will automatically be downgraded from
secret to confidential and five years after that to declassified. The
whole security system is a conglomeration. That is, the CIA and the DOD
and the other organizations, State Department for example, all deal with
classified material but the rules are different. And people, you know, I
get so urked when people want to pull things like "Well that isn't the
way this was done." One example, the MJ-12 documents, the original ones
the Eisenhower briefing documents, so for, someone complained that:

          "They obviously must be fraudulent because they don't have top
secret control numbers on them."

     Well, I did a lot of checking and I also pointed out to the person
that in my final report on operation Majestic 12 back in 1990 I had
published five formally Top Secret documents that didn't have control
numbers on them.

Linda Howe:

     Right!

Stanton Friedman.

     But, he insisted and I checked with the Eisenhower Library. I
checked with the Marshall Archives. The archivist at the Marshall
archives said:

          " Stan, if they had of used control numbers on everything we
still be fighting World War II." (A Friedman Sniker)


Art Bell:

     There you are. We are at the top of the hour...
--

First of all, the above only shows the level of Stanton Friedman's
ignorance on the handling of classified materials.  That is
understandable since Stanton Friedman _never_, repeat _never_, held a
TOP SECRET clearance or handled TOP SECRET documents in his life and
from the reposted message attached it is obvious that until I brought
the subject up in 1996 on this mailing list, Stanton Friedman was
unaware of any security regulation responsible for the handling of TOP
SECRET documents at all!

That was then in 1996, but now in 1999 we hear differently. He projects
himself once again as a security expert and he says that for the CIA,
the DOD, and the State Department that:

        "the rules are different"

That is fantastic to learn! The above implies that since they are
different and now that Stanton Friedman tells all of Art Bell's
listeners that they are different, he must have researched them and
discovered the differences!

Could you please share those differences in the regulations with us and
point us to the proper source regulations that do not address the need
for TOP SECRET control numbers and registers on TOP SECRET documents?
You obviously did not have the time to do so during the Art bell show.

I have shown in the past that DOD does require control numbers on TOP
SECRET documents. And when documents come under the control of DOD, as
the alleged MJ-12 papers, initial and new, would have of necessity,
those would have had control numbers assigned at that time.

I would like to point out that all the agencies Stanton Friedman
mentioned on the Art Bell Show as having different rules and implied as
having been researched by him were under the executive branch and
subject to the same executive orders by the President of the United
States. Each agency would have to implement the same directions outlined
in the appropriate executive order. In my 1996 post reproduced below, I
listed those executive orders.

Also, please provide the name of the archivist at the Marshall library
that said TOP SECRET control numbers were not required? Wait a moment. I
see that you quote this "source" as saying:

        " Stan, if they had of used control numbers on everything we
still be fighting World War II."                    *************

On everything? I thought the point of discussion was only on TOP SECRET
documents. So, what is it that this individual said and the proper
context and what was he refering to? And who was the person? I would
very much like to correct myself if there turns out to be different
rules for the handling of TOP SECRET documents within the executive
branch of our government. Apparently, you have come across a very
knowledgeable source of information that "knows" stuff not readily
apparent to the present and past members of the executive branch of our
government.

While we wait for Stanton Friedman to verify his research notes, please
read the following repost of 8/12/96 made in direct response to Stanton
Friedman since he was totally unaware of any regulation requiring TOP
SECRET control numbers at that time. Of course now we know differently.
That he is aware of the regulations and that there are "several" with
relevant differences. As soon as he reveals those to us, we all will be
much enlightened due to the diligent and heroic archival research that
Stanton Friedman performs.

In case Stanton Friedman is unable to locate his research notes and
unable to substantiate the allegations he once more made on the Art Bell
show, maybe the MJ-12 promotional team of Woods and Woods would like to
enlighten us as to the lack of control numbers on their alleged MJ-12
papers? They are also on record as performing diligent and heroic
research on the new MJ-12 papers.

Ed Stewart

ps. not that it will even be read or noticed, but a cc to Art Bell sent.
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ed Stewart ufoindex@jps.net|So Man, who here seems principal alone,
There Is Something         |Perhaps acts second to some sphere unknown.
   Going On!       ,>'?'<, |Touches some wheel, or verges to some goal,
Salvador Freixedo  ( O O ) |'Tis but a part we see, and not a whole.
---------------ooOO-(_)-OOoo------- Alexander Pope, Essay on Man -------
Message-Id: <2.2.32.19960812160716.0067ac30@ultratech.net>
X-Sender: tomt@ultratech.net (Unverified)
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32)
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 12:07:16 -0400
To: ianr@global-data.com
From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ebk@nobelmed.com>
Subject: UFO UpDate: Re: MJ-12 - An Estimate of the Situation

From: egs@netcom.com (Edward G. Stewart)
Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: MJ-12 - An Estimate of the Situation
To: ebk@nobelmed.com (UFO UpDates - Toronto)
Date: Sun, 11 Aug 1996 16:03:26 -0700 (PDT)


Regarding: fsphys@brunswickmicro.nb.ca

> I just wish Ed would put some data on the table... like documented
> protocols about TS documents requiring control numbers.
> Stan Friedman

It appears that nuclear physicist Stanton T. Friedman, the original
Roswell researcher with decades of unprecedented personal archival
research, as well as substantial archival research in conjunction with
co-researchers, is having difficulties accepting a simple statement
of fact made by me in an earlier missive to this list. This is good. No
claim should be accepted at face value. Just as healthy skepticism is
good for science (pay close attention to that process with the current
news breaking Mars-life claim for insights into the process as scientists
examine the claims for compelling evidence of direct linkage), the process
is also healthy and desperately needed within the world of Ufology.

Please note the following:

     AR 380-5 Chapter VII Access, Dissemination, and Accountability
              Section 3 Accountability and Control

More specifically the above states:

     "AR 380-5 7-300. Top Secret information
     "DoD activities shall establish the following procedures:

     "b. Accountability

     "2. Serialization and copy numbering. Top Secret documents
         and material shall be numbered serially. In addition,
               each Top Secret document shall be marked to indicate its
               copy number, for example, copy -1- of -2-copies. Top Secret
               documents will be numbered in sequence as they are received
               in a calendar year series. This number will be posted to
               the document and control register. Changes to controlled
               documents will be assigned the same control number as the
               basic document, except that a suffix (such as ""Change 4'')
               will be added. The change will be incorporated immediately
               into the basic document; a notation will be added to the
               description block on the document register."

Also,     "AR 380-5 7-300. Top Secret information
     "DoD activities shall establish the following procedures:

     "c. Inventories. All Top Secret documents and material shall
               be inventoried at least once annually. Within Army, TSCOs
               will conduct a monthly 10-percent inventory of Top Secret
               documents. The inventory shall reconcile by the tenth
               month, the Top Secret accountability register with 100
               percent of the Top Secret documents or material on hand.
               At such time, each document or material shall be examined
               for completeness..."


Please note also that "AR 380-5  Appendix F Program Evaluation Guide"
asks the necessary questions for proper evaluation of existing
documents to see whether or not they are in conformity with existing
security protocols? There are hundreds of questions that need to be
addressed and too long for me to post all here. But of immediate
relevance are the following:

     AR 380-5 F-6. Classified information access, dissemination,
             and accountability

              " r. Are copies of classified documents subjected
                         to the same controls as the originals?
              " y. Are all TOP SECRET documents numbered serially?
              "ab. Is the two person rule followed in areas where
             TOP SECRET and Special Access Program (SAP)
                         information is stored and accessible?
                    "ad. Has an exception to policy been submitted and
                         approved for TOP SECRET and SAP areas where the
                         two-person rule cannot be implemented?"

The "Program Evaluation Guide" shows that the self-evaluation questions
are applicable not only to TOP SECRET documents, but also to
TOP SECRET (SAP) documents. And no where does it ask if an exception to
policy has been submitted and approved for not serially numbering all
TOP SECRET (SAP) documents. Whereas the two-person rule for SAP can
be excepted under exceptional circumstances, not so for the
serialization marking requirement to the actual document and copies of
TOP SECRET documents. Even though AR 380-381 ((C) Special Access
Programs (U)) is a CONFIDENTIAL classified regulation, DA Pamphlet
380-381 (Security for Special Access Programs)is not, as neither is
DoD Directive 5205.7 (Special Access Programs (SAPs)). A Special Access
program is any program imposing need-to-know or access controls beyond
those normally required for access to Confidential, Secret, or Top
Secret information.

Programs which fall under SCI and COMSEC guidelines
have separate classified regulations detailing additional security
procedures, but the rule of thumb is the higher the security requirement,
the higher the control, the higher the accountability. Never is it less
control, less accountability. Please note:

     AR 380-5 1-205. Sensitive compartmented and
               communications security information.

           "a. Sensitive Compartmented Information (SCI) and
                           Communications Security (COMSEC) Information
                           shall be handled and controlled in
                           accordance with applicable national directives
                           and DoD Directives and Instructions. Other
                           classified information, while in established
                           SCI or COMSEC areas, may be handled in the
                           same manner as SCI or COMSEC information.
                           Classification principles and procedures,
                           markings, downgrading, and declassification
            [my emphasis] [*********]
                           actions prescribed in this Regulation apply
                           to SCI and COMSEC information."

AR 380-5 derives its authority through DoD Directive 5200.1: DoD Information
Security Program, which implements Presidential Executive Orders on National
Security Information. Applicable Presidential Executive Orders which
have governed the classification program have been:

     Executive Order 12958, 1995, Clinton
     Executive Order 12937, 1994, Clinton
     Executive Order 12356, 1982, Reagan
     Executive Order 12065, 1978, Carter
     Executive Order 11652, 1972, Nixon
     Executive Order 10964, 1961, Kennedy
     Executive Order 10501, 1953, Eisenhower
     Executive Order 10290, 1951, Truman
     Executive Order 10104, 1950, Truman
     Executive Order  8381, 1940, Roosevelt

The last significant change on National Security Information occurred
when Truman in 1951 discarded references to congressional authority and
in essence vested authority solely onto the Executive Branch and brought
control of the classification system under the President and the White
House, a power that to this day is still solely vested in the President
of the United States.

As shown above, not only are control numbers required markings on
TOP SECRET documents, but control numbers are also required on TOP
SECRET Special Access Program (SAP) documents, TOP SECRET Sensitive
Compartmented Information (SCI) documents, and TOP SECRET COMSEC
documents.

Not only are all TOP SECRET documents tightly controlled, but they are
also systematicaly inventoried and validated for completeness every
10 months. The guidelines re-emphasize that one of the items
requiring re-verification every year is that all TOP SECRET documents
have a serialized control number marking on the document and reconciled
with the TOP SECRET control registry.

An alleged TOP SECRET document or manual created in the 40s/50s would have
been systematicaly inventoried and validated for completeness well over
forty/fifty times since then. The fact that none of the alleged MJ-12
documents have serialized control numbers strongly suggests that they
were never brought under proper control as required by regulations and
directives under the authority of Presidential Executive Orders. This
suggests that the alleged MJ-12 documents were never under the control
of the President of the United States and the Executive Branch of
the United States and are simply bogus.

Ed Stewart


---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ed Stewart - egs@netcom.com - | So Man, who here seems principal alone,
"There is                     | Perhaps acts second to some sphere unknown.
 Something Going On!" ,>'?'<, | Touches some wheel, or verges to some goal,
 -Salvador Freixedo-  ( O O ) | 'Tis but a part we see, and not a whole.
------------------ooOO-(_)-OOoo------- Alexander Pope, Essay on Man -------


___________________________________
Errol Bruce-Knapp  (ebk@nobelmed.com)
UFO UpDates - Toronto - 416-932-0031
The OnLine Information List Service of MUFON Ontario
Your participation is encouraged and appreciated

MUFON Ontario's Home Page:
http://www.interlog.com/~epona/mufonont.html

The Canadian Ufologist - A MUFON Ontario Publication
http://www.interlog.com/~lourenco/ufologist.html





Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 17:23:37 -0800
From: Ed Stewart <ufoindex@jps.net>
To: updates@globalserve.net
CC: artbell@aol.com
Subject: Repost #3   MJ-12 - An Estimate of the Situation


I am taking this opportunity to address both the new MJ-12
papers as promoted by Robert and Ryan Woods and the initial
batch of MJ-12 papers with another common problem they both
have: the continuous position by Stanton Friedman that TOP
SECRET documents do not have to have control numbers. This was
discussed at lenght in 1996 and I am reposting the data that
Stan Friedman apparently has forgotten.

On the Art Bell Dreamland Radio Show, 1/10/99, towards the end
and top of the first hour:


Stanton Friedman:

It is true of classified material that sometimes it has got a
life on it. That is, ten years later it will automatically be
downgraded from secret to confidential and five years after that
to declassified. The whole security system is a conglomeration.
That is, the CIA and the DOD and the other organizations, State
Department for example, all deal with classified material but
the rules are different. And people, you know, I get so urked
when people want to pull things like "Well that isn't the way
this was done." One example, the MJ-12 documents, the original
ones the Eisenhower briefing documents, so for, someone
complained that:

"They obviously must be fraudulent because they don't have top
secret control numbers on them."

Well, I did a lot of checking and I also pointed out to the
person that in my final report on operation Majestic 12 back in
1990 I had published five formally Top Secret documents that
didn't have control numbers on them.


Linda Howe: Right!


Stanton Friedman:

But, he insisted and I checked with the Eisenhower Library. I
checked with the Marshall Archives. The archivist at the
Marshall archives said:

"Stan, if they had of used control numbers on everything we
still be fighting World War II." (A Friedman Snicker)


Art Bell: There you are. We are at the top of the hour...

--

First of all, the above only shows the level of Stanton
Friedman's ignorance on the handling of classified materials.
That is understandable since Stanton Friedman _never_, repeat
_never_, held a TOP SECRET clearance or handled TOP SECRET
documents in his life and from the reposted message attached it
is obvious that until I brought the subject up in 1996 on this
mailing list, Stanton Friedman was unaware of any security
regulation responsible for the handling of TOP SECRET documents
at all!

That was then in 1996, but now in 1999 we hear differently. He
projects himself once again as a security expert and he says
that for the CIA, the DOD, and the State Department that:

        "the rules are different"

That is fantastic to learn! The above implies that since they
are different and now that Stanton Friedman tells all of Art
Bell's listeners that they are different, he must have
researched them and discovered the differences!

Could you please share those differences in the regulations with
us and point us to the proper source regulations that do not
address the need for TOP SECRET control numbers and registers on
TOP SECRET documents? You obviously did not have the time to do
so during the Art bell show.

I have shown in the past that DOD does require control numbers
on TOP SECRET documents. And when documents come under the
control of DOD, as the alleged MJ-12 papers, initial and new,
would have of necessity, those would have had control numbers
assigned at that time.

I would like to point out that all the agencies Stanton Friedman
mentioned on the Art Bell Show as having different rules and
implied as having been researched by him were under the
executive branch and subject to the same executive orders by the
President of the United States. Each agency would have to
implement the same directions outlined in the appropriate
executive order. In my 1996 post reproduced below, I listed
those executive orders.

Also, please provide the name of the archivist at the Marshall
library that said TOP SECRET control numbers were not required?
Wait a moment. I see that you quote this "source" as saying:

"Stan, if they had of used control numbers on everything we'd
still be fighting World War II."    ---------------

On everything? I thought the point of discussion was only on TOP
SECRET documents. So, what is it that this individual said and
the proper context and what was he refering to? And who was the
person? I would very much like to correct myself if there turns
out to be different rules for the handling of TOP SECRET
documents within the executive branch of our government.
Apparently, you have come across a very knowledgeable source of
information that "knows" stuff not readily apparent to the
present and past members of the executive branch of our
government.

While we wait for Stanton Friedman to verify his research notes,
please read the following repost of 8/12/96 made in direct
response to Stanton Friedman since he was totally unaware of any
regulation requiring TOP SECRET control numbers at that time. Of
course now we know differently. That he is aware of the
regulations and that there are "several" with relevant
differences. As soon as he reveals those to us, we all will be
much enlightened due to the diligent and heroic archival
research that Stanton Friedman performs.

In case Stanton Friedman is unable to locate his research notes
and unable to substantiate the allegations he once more made on
the Art Bell show, maybe the MJ-12 promotional team of Woods and
Woods would like to enlighten us as to the lack of control
numbers on their alleged MJ-12 papers? They are also on record
as performing diligent and heroic research on the new MJ-12
papers.

Ed Stewart

PS. not that it will even be read or noticed, but a Cc: sent to
Art Bell . --

Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 12:07:16 -0400
To: ianr@global-data.com
From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ebk@nobelmed.com>
Subject: UFO UpDate: Re: MJ-12 - An Estimate of the Situation

From: egs@netcom.com (Edward G. Stewart)
Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: MJ-12 - An Estimate of the Situation
To: ebk@nobelmed.com (UFO UpDates - Toronto)
Date: Sun, 11 Aug 1996 16:03:26 -0700 (PDT)


Regarding: fsphys@brunswickmicro.nb.ca

> I just wish Ed would put some data on the table... like documented
> protocols about TS documents requiring control numbers.
> Stan Friedman

It appears that nuclear physicist Stanton T. Friedman, the
original Roswell researcher with decades of unprecedented
personal archival research, as well as substantial archival
research in conjunction with co-researchers, is having
difficulties accepting a simple statement of fact made by me in
an earlier missive to this list. This is good. No claim should
be accepted at face value. Just as healthy skepticism is good
for science (pay close attention to that process with the
current news breaking Mars-life claim for insights into the
process as scientists examine the claims for compelling evidence
of direct linkage), the process is also healthy and desperately
needed within the world of Ufology.

Please note the following:

AR 380-5 Chapter VII Access, Dissemination, and Accountability
    Section 3 Accountability and Control

More specifically the above states:

"AR 380-5 7-300. Top Secret information
"DoD activities shall establish the following procedures:

"b. Accountability

"2. Serialization and copy numbering. Top Secret documents
and material shall be numbered serially. In addition,
each Top Secret document shall be marked to indicate its
copy number, for example, copy -1- of -2-copies. Top Secret
documents will be numbered in sequence as they are received
in a calendar year series. This number will be posted to
the document and control register. Changes to controlled
documents will be assigned the same control number as the
basic document, except that a suffix (such as ""Change 4'')
will be added. The change will be incorporated immediately
into the basic document; a notation will be added to the
description block on the document register."

Also,"AR 380-5 7-300. Top Secret information
"DoD activities shall establish the following procedures:

"c. Inventories. All Top Secret documents and material shall
be inventoried at least once annually. Within Army, TSCOs
will conduct a monthly 10-percent inventory of Top Secret
documents. The inventory shall reconcile by the tenth
month, the Top Secret accountability register with 100
percent of the Top Secret documents or material on hand.
At such time, each document or material shall be examined
for completeness..."


Please note also that "AR 380-5  Appendix F Program Evaluation
Guide" asks the necessary questions for proper evaluation of
existing documents to see whether or not they are in conformity
with existing security protocols? There are hundreds of
questions that need to be addressed and too long for me to post
all here. But of immediate relevance are the following:

AR 380-5 F-6. Classified information access, dissemination,
   and accountability

    " r. Are copies of classified documents subjected
to the same controls as the originals?
    " y. Are all TOP SECRET documents numbered serially?
    "ab. Is the two person rule followed in areas where

TOP SECRET and Special Access Program (SAP)
information is stored and accessible?
"ad. Has an exception to policy been submitted and
approved for TOP SECRET and SAP areas where the
two-person rule cannot be implemented?"

The "Program Evaluation Guide" shows that the self-evaluation
questions are applicable not only to TOP SECRET documents, but
also to TOP SECRET (SAP) documents. And no where does it ask if
an exception to policy has been submitted and approved for not
serially numbering all TOP SECRET (SAP) documents. Whereas the
two-person rule for SAP can be excepted under exceptional
circumstances, not so for the serialization marking requirement
to the actual document and copies of TOP SECRET documents. Even
though AR 380-381 ((C) Special Access Programs (U)) is a
CONFIDENTIAL classified regulation, DA Pamphlet 380-381
(Security for Special Access Programs)is not, as neither is DoD
Directive 5205.7 (Special Access Programs (SAPs)). A Special
Access program is any program imposing need-to-know or access
controls beyond those normally required for access to
Confidential, Secret, or Top Secret information.

Programs which fall under SCI and COMSEC guidelines have
separate classified regulations detailing additional security
procedures, but the rule of thumb is the higher the security
requirement, the higher the control, the higher the
accountability. Never is it less control, less accountability.
Please note:

AR 380-5 1-205. Sensitive compartmented and
communications security information.

 "a. Sensitive Compartmented Information (SCI) and
  Communications Security (COMSEC) Information
  shall be handled and controlled in
  accordance with applicable national directives
  and DoD Directives and Instructions. Other
  classified information, while in established
  SCI or COMSEC areas, may be handled in the
  same manner as SCI or COMSEC information.
  Classification principles and procedures,
  markings, downgrading, and declassification
  [my emphasis] [*********]
  actions prescribed in this Regulation apply
  to SCI and COMSEC information."

AR 380-5 derives its authority through DoD Directive 5200.1: DoD
Information Security Program, which implements Presidential
Executive Orders on National Security Information. Applicable
Presidential Executive Orders which have governed the
classification program have been:

Executive Order 12958, 1995, Clinton
Executive Order 12937, 1994, Clinton
Executive Order 12356, 1982, Reagan
Executive Order 12065, 1978, Carter
Executive Order 11652, 1972, Nixon
Executive Order 10964, 1961, Kennedy
Executive Order 10501, 1953, Eisenhower
Executive Order 10290, 1951, Truman
Executive Order 10104, 1950, Truman
Executive Order  8381, 1940, Roosevelt

The last significant change on National Security Information
occurred when Truman in 1951 discarded references to
congressional authority and in essence vested authority solely
onto the Executive Branch and brought control of the
classification system under the President and the White House, a
power that to this day is still solely vested in the President
of the United States.

As shown above, not only are control numbers required markings
on TOP SECRET documents, but control numbers are also required
on TOP SECRET Special Access Program (SAP) documents, TOP SECRET
Sensitive Compartmented Information (SCI) documents, and TOP
SECRET COMSEC documents.

Not only are all TOP SECRET documents tightly controlled, but
they are also systematicaly inventoried and validated for
completeness every 10 months. The guidelines re-emphasize that
one of the items requiring re-verification every year is that
all TOP SECRET documents have a serialized control number
marking on the document and reconciled with the TOP SECRET
control registry.

An alleged TOP SECRET document or manual created in the 40s/50s
would have been systematicaly inventoried and validated for
completeness well over forty/fifty times since then. The fact
that none of the alleged MJ-12 documents have serialized control
numbers strongly suggests that they were never brought under
proper control as required by regulations and directives under
the authority of Presidential Executive Orders. This suggests
that the alleged MJ-12 documents were never under the control of
the President of the United States and the Executive Branch of
the United States and are simply bogus.

Ed Stewart

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ed Stewart - egs@netcom.com - | So Man, who here seems principal alone,
"There is                     | Perhaps acts second to some sphere unknown.
 Something Going On!" ,>'?'<, | Touches some wheel, or verges to some goal,
 -Salvador Freixedo-  ( O O ) | 'Tis but a part we see, and not a whole.
-------------------ooOO-(_)-OOoo------- Alexander Pope, Essay on Man -------








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 27

                           Re: UFO Communication?

From: Rick Goldsmith <rgoldsm@synapse.net>
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 18:16:11 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 04:44:30 -0500
Subject: Re: UFO Communication?


>From: Brian Straight <brians@mdbs.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: UFO Communication?
>Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 09:08:45 -0500

>>From: Rick Goldsmith <rgoldsm@synapse.net>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>Subject:  Re: UFO Communication?
>>Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 19:32:26 -0500

>>The "changes in the polarization" of the reflected laser light,
>>in this example, has more to do with the "reflective properties
>>of the MO layer that were modified by the magnetic record head".

>Hi, Rick.  Thanks for the stimulating post.  If I may briefly
>add a definition on the Faraday effect from a handout given at
>good ol' Purdue (our local University), the Farady Effect is:

>"A magneto-optic effect in which the polarization plane of an
>electromagnetic wave is rotated under the influence of a
>magnetic field parallel to the direction of propagation."

>Which suggests that there is a direct interaction between the EM
>wave and the magnetic field, rather than polarization introduced
>by the reflective properties of the MO layer in a magneto
>optical device modified by a magnetic field (unless, I'm missing
>something, that is :)).

>Brian

Well Brian, I did some poking around after reading this post and
from what I can gather, you were absolutely right and I was
wrong (ouch, that smarts!). Here's a quote I found on a Physics
website discussing Faraday rotation;

"Given two rays of circularly polarized light, one with left
hand and the other with right hand polarization, the one with
the polarization in the same direction as the electricity of the
magnetizing current travels with greater velocity. I.e., the
plane of linearly polarized light is rotated when a magnetic
field is applied perpendicular to the propagation direction. The
empirical angle of rotation is given by >(formula here)"

Fascinating stuff! Seems to imply that the light is being sped
up or slowed down, which is pretty amazing in itself. I'll have
to do more reading about this. Can you think of anything that
utilizes this effect on a larger scale than a MO disc? I'd love
to see this effect in action if in fact one can see it at all
(with eyes, that is). I wonder if you can apply it to other,
non-laser sources of light as well. Thanks for setting me
Straight :)

Cheers
Rick Goldsmith






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 27

                                 Betty Hill?

From: Joseph Trainor <Masinaigan@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 21:29:21 EST
Fwd Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 04:54:47 -0500
Subject: Betty Hill?


Dear List Members:

Does anyone have a current email address or snail-mail address
for UFO contactee Mrs. Betty Hill of New Hampshire?

I have been contacted by a European ufologist who would like to
interview her. Any help would be appreciated.  Thanks!

Joseph Trainor






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 27

                            Re: Roger's Rhyme #1

From: Scott Caput <scaput@shadow.net>
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 22:05:58 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 05:02:22 -0500
Subject: Re: Roger's Rhyme #1


>Roger Evans
>From: moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com
>Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 23:52:13 +0000
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Roger's Rhyme #1

>Hello all,

>Feeling a bit creative tonite. Enjoy...

>I came to this list by way of a friend
>in the hope that, per chance, a fresh view I might lend
>to the views, high and low, of those that are able
>to accept new ideas and blow off age old fables.

>But, alas I do find that what�s old is what�s new
>as the truth, far too often, is looked at askew.
>Who am I, some might ask, to suggest that these things
>should be thought of as fact when the fat lady sings?

<snip>

>(How'd I do, Alfred?)

Bravo! Roger.

What do you think Alfred?

--
Scott R. Caput

The brain is by far the most complexly organized piece of matter
we know. It is enormously more complicated in structure than a
star is, for instance, which is why astronomers know so much
about stars, and psychologists know so little about brains.

                       Isaac Asimov






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 27

                             Re: Keeping Secrets

From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 22:16:01 +0000
Fwd Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 05:06:17 -0500
Subject: Re: Keeping Secrets


>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
>Date: Tue, 26 Jan 99 12:11:13 Pst
>Fwd Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 21:15:16 -0500
>Subject: Re: Keeping Secrets

>>From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
>>Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 21:37:17 +0000
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>Subject: Re: Keeping Secrets

>>>From: Scott Carr <sardonica@erols.com>
>>>Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 13:12:04 -0800
>>>Fwd Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 16:24:13 -0500
>>>Subject: Re: Keeping Secrets

>>>>From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
>>>>Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 23:26:59 EST
>>>>To: Updates@Globalserve.net
>>>>Subject: Keeping Secrets

Previously, Scott had pointed out:

>>>.... one example
>>>which I have personally witnessed is the simple fact that the
>>>warning signs at the military border of Area 51 clearly state
>>>"Use of deadly force authorized."

I added what I felt was a common train of thought among doubters:

>>It hasn't happened to me or anyone else that I know, plus it's
>>not the known policy of the US government. Therefore, it doesn't
>>happen.
>
>>The obvious flaw in this logic is to suggest that it can't
>>happen to the many if it's not known to have happened to the
>>one. The key phrase here is "known to have happened".

Jerry offers:

>I think it is fair to ask for specific examples here.

Hi Jerry,

It's fair if you know that the information is readily available.

If you know that the very nature of the subject precludes the
availability of that info, then it's faulty logic to say,"There.
You can't prove it, so it never happened!"

I do tend to agree with Bob Young that it does get really old to
hear about "oaths of secrecy" preventing people from telling all
they know. On the other hand, as an old military man once told
me, there's a reason they call it "spilling your guts". <G>

>While our
>government, like every government, has abused its power on
>occasion, that abuse tends to get exposed sooner or later,
>careers get ruined, and in extreme cases people go to prison.

The thing you are leaving out is that people do get hurt, Jerry.
Sure, maybe the bad guys eventually get exposed. But that only
means that WHILE it was happening it was a secret activity;
which is what this discussion is all about. They never PLAN on
getting caught. Most importantly, just because we catch a few
does not mean that we've caught them all.

>I don't think this sort of paranoia -- it's hard to think of
>another word for it -- does much for anybody except maybe
>recruiters for the militia movement. It's possible to keep a
>healthily skeptical view of government and to be properly
>critical when it does wrong without going over the edge here.

I suppose. But I don't think the sign at Area 51 will ever read:

"Use of Really Harsh Words Authorized" <G>

Later,

Roger Evans






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 27

                             'Mind-Body Problem'

From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@get2net.dk>
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 04:17:49 +0100 (MET)
Fwd Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 09:19:56 -0500
Subject: 'Mind-Body Problem'


Source: The Village Voice,

http://www.villagevoice.com/features/9904/sandow.shtml

Stig

***

January 27 - February 2, 199


Mind-Body Problem

by Greg Sandow.


UFO research teeters between science and insanity

***

When I tell people I've done UFO research, they react
in many ways, most of them interested and
sympathetic. But often they ask an irresistible
question. Have I heard any crazy stories?

Of course I have. How about the guy who told me
aliens put a chip in his head that made women flock
to him? Even better, he said, the aliens told him to
go out and use it . . . which, I have to say, I saw
him doing, though I doubt that aliens were
responsible.

And then there was the woman from the Center for the
Study of Extraterrestrial Intelligence (CSETI), an
organization that claims to be serious and
responsible but also says it's made direct contact
with aliens. Its members have gone out at night, they
say, blinked searchlights at the sky =97 and sure
enough, the aliens blinked back! But when I asked if
I could see this for myself, their spokes-woman
turned me down, big-time. My mistake, apparently, was
asking to observe as a journalist. "Oh, no," the
CSETI representative replied. "We've learned our
lesson. We invited CBS, and they said it didn't
happen."

Then she told me that the government was beaming
harmful rays at her.

But amusing as all this i =97 I could tell crazy UFO
tales all day long =97 it's not the crazy stories that
matter. It's the sane ones. To understand the UFO
phenomenon, you need to hear firsthand accounts, from
reasonable people who aren't looking for publicity,
like the woman in her twenties and the older married
couple, who =97 in separate incidents =97 told me they saw
something really huge pass overhead in silence,
flying low, at treetop height, some years ago in the
Hudson Valley (an area with many reports of such
sightings).

All three people described what seemed like similar
patterns of metallic piping on the bottom of what
they say they saw. It's that last detail that makes
these sightings more than usually impressive, though
I'm not going to say that these people saw
spaceships. How could I? How can any of us know for
sure?

But unless they're lying, it seems that they saw
something that doesn't sound much like a weather
balloon, the planet Venus, or a plane, to name a few
things often blamed for UFO reports. Nor does it seem
like a group of ultralight aircraft flying in
formation, the explanation most commonly suggested
for the Hudson Valley sightings. It's true, of
course, that people often make mistakes about what
they think they see. But these people insist they saw
real objects that darkened the sky and had a textured
underside.

You'll also find sane reports from people who think
they've been abducted by aliens. Budd Hopkins, a New
York painter and sculptor who's America's most famous
abduction researcher, at one point invited me to look
through his unopened mail.

A very few letters came from evidently crazy people.
("The aliens visit me each Thursday.") But most were
simple and sincere. These writers didn't claim to
have been abducted. They did think, though, that
something they couldn't explain was happening. Often
they sounded terrified. For most of their lives, they
wrote, they'd seen unexpected lights in their rooms
at night, and beings by their beds. The beings didn't
necessarily seem like aliens, but the letter writers
were desperate for an explanation.

They also say their encounters left otherwise
unexplained marks on their bodies. And when I've met
them, I've sometimes found them saying they remember
things they didn't dare to write about, like being
driven by their parents to an isolated field where
something like "a merry-go-round with lights" was
waiting for them. What they want to know =97 and they
ask the question warily, skeptically, thinking that
they're crazy just to write or type the words =97 is
whether abductions might explain what they say has
been happening.

Often, these abductees then get hypnotized, to
recover further memories, and that's controversial.
Most psychologists think hypnosis can't recover
memory. But psychologists who write about abductions =97
and I've read just about all the papers on the
subject ever published in psychology journals =97 make
elementary mistakes. Few have ever spoken to an
abductee, and yet they'll write that abductees are
UFO enthusiasts (not true), who proclaim their
abduction memories only after being hypnotized (also
not true). The situation is far more complex than
that, but whatever's going on, it's something nobody
has yet explained.

Which brings me to the craziest =97 and saddest =97 thing
I've seen in the world of UFOs, and that's the
confusion surrounding the subject. Mainstream media
print misinformation =97 not disinformation, not
deliberate lies or cover-ups, but just shoddy,
unchecked data, as if UFOs were beneath contempt, and
no reporter need take them seriously enough to check
historical facts. More seriously, one leading
investigator of the Roswell crash, Kevin Randle, once
told me that no one from the mainstream media had
ever looked through his files to find out why he
thinks the crash was of something alien. He let me do
it, and what I found was quite convincing, though
lately the skeptics have the upper hand, because some
leading Roswell witnesses have been caught in lies or
exaggerations.

And within the field of UFO research, I've found a
sad polarization. On one side, we have people
blinking lights at aliens, and on the other,
scientific skeptics who think they can explain even
serious UFO reports but don't have a clue what
they're talking about. The most astonishing example
came from Donald Menzel, a Harvard astronomer who
wrote three books debunking UFOs.

Menzel laughed at a report from an Anglican priest in
New Guinea, who said he watched beings walking
around, apparently working, in a hovering UFO for
more than 20 minutes. Now, I'm not going to say this
really happened; I don't have a clue. But Menzel
suggested =97 with no evidence at all =97 that the priest
suffered from astigmatism, and either didn't know it,
or had forgotten to put on his glasses. What he saw,
said Menzel, was Venus, distorted by astigmatism into
an oval shape =97 and as for beings, those were the
priest's own eyelashes!

I myself spent four hours arguing with Philip Klass,
the most widely published current UFO skeptic, who
raged that abductees make their claims only to get on
TV. That's absurd. I've met dozens of them, and they
fervently protect their privacy. Only one has ever
let me print his name. So I had to ask: Which
abductees had Klass met? "The ones who appear with me
on television," he replied without a trace of irony.

I also talked about two airline pilots who made
headlines back in 1948, reporting that they'd seen an
unknown craft with windows swooping past their plane
one night. This, Klass writes in his 1974 book, UFOs
Explained, was "clearly" a meteor, so "clearly," in
fact, that the case must be "removed for all time
from the category of 'unidentifieds.' "

But how, I asked him, could he be so sure? That the
pilots could have seen a meteor is obvious enough,
since (as Klass points out) in other cases people did
imagine windows, when all they saw were random
lights. But even skeptics can't cite any meteor known
to fall that night in 1948, so how can Klass be
certain?

"Suppose something went wrong with your PC," he
rumbled, chuckling, but not quite answering my
question. "Would you suspect evil spirits, or would
you call a technician?" Evidently UFOs were as
improbable as ghosts to him, and as easily
dismissable. But I kept probing, and finally he took
a stand. "Since there is no proof that unknown craft
are in the sky," he said, "I prefer a prosaic
explanation." Or, in other words, since there are no
UFOs, nobody could ever see one. File that under
faith, not science.

After four years of UFO research, I'm left with only
one firm conclusion. Despite years of Star Trek, the
possibility of aliens=97 right here, now, on Earth
among us =97 is so unsettling that many people, both
skeptics and believers, can't talk sense about it.

(Image: Identified flying object: Morgianna the
Intergalactic Belly Dancer at the 1997 Roswell
"encounter" - Meg Handler)

<snip>

Tell us what you think.

editor@villagevoice.com

*Copyright/Fine Print









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 27

              Re: 1999 UFO Alien Abduction Conference Announced

From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 22:23:11 EST
Fwd Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 10:02:56 -0500
Subject: Re: 1999 UFO Alien Abduction Conference Announced


>From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@get2net.dk>
>Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 02:02:26 +0100 (MET)
>Subject: 1999 UFO Alien Abduction Conference Announced
>To: updates@globalserve.net

>Source: "alt.ufo.reports".

>Stig

>From: "Gerard Vanderleun"
>gerard.vanderleun@generalmedia.com>
>Newsgroups: alt.ufo.reports
>Subject: 1999 UFO ALIEN ABDUCTION CONFERENCE
>Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 11:49:06 -0500
>ef: news.get2net.dk alt.ufo.reports:26306

>The Intruders Foundation Presents

>THE 1999 UFO ABDUCTION CONFERENCE
>-  WHAT WE KNOW AND HOW WE KNOW IT -

>On Saturday, April 10, 1999, New York City will be the site of a
>day-long national conference on the UFO abduction phenomenon.
>Four of America's most respected UFO researchers - Budd Hopkins,
>Stanton Friedman, David Jacobs and Jerome Clark - will welcome
>the public to a cutting-edge presentation of current evidence
>for the reality and possible future of alien abductions.

Not all the evidence. Only that which they want you to hear. You
will notice that there are no speakers or information offered
about alternatives to these specific people's opinions. How
cutting edge can it be without alternative explanations being
offered.

>The conference is planned as both a crash course in the ongoing
>UFO abduction phenomenon - what we know and how we know it - and
>an illustrated presentation of the latest research findings.

It will only be a crash course in belief structure and it will
not contain the latest findings. Only those findings which they
want you to hear. In an upcoming book by Kevin Randle (me), Russ
Estes, and Dr. William P. Cone, we take a long and hard look at
the abduction phenomenon as it exists today. We can find some
alternative explanations and we offered to share these at the
conference, but the organizers were uninterested in that. They
are only interested in promoting alien abduction as if it is a
proven fact and refuse to answer hard questions about it.

KRandle







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 27

               08-12-96: MJ-12 - An Estimate of the Situation

From: Ed Stewart <ufoindex@jps.net>
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 19:34:57 -0800
Fwd Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 10:21:14 -0500
Subject: 08-12-96: MJ-12 - An Estimate of the Situation


This repost, also from 8/12/1996, touches on the issue of
relevancy. Does the alleged evidence being claimed by the
proponents support the authenticity of the claim, or is it just
more sound bytes?

It also contributes towards the demystification of the MJ-12
saga. The claim, as you will see, that outsiders could not have
fabricated the MJ-12 papers does not stand up to the historical
record and it is just as phony as the documents themselves.

The false implication that only insiders could have produced the
documents is argued by promoters of the documents to suggest the
only two possibilities open to reason are that the documents are
either genuine, or if not, a conspiracy to disinform. No other
alternatives are given, much less suggested, research or
explored.

The dichotomy presented above by MJ-12 proponents is a logical
fallacy known as exclusion of the middle. Absence of evidence
for one possibility does not imply evidence for the other
extreme possibility. The middle cannot be excluded and many
alternatives exist. Exploration of alternatives requires that
the issue of provenance/genesis be addressed. Something that
apparently is not a priority with the MJ-12 promoters.

With the above in mind let me repeat my original question in the
repost below from 1996 to the new batch of MJ-12 papers. Is
there anything in the new alleged evidence that establishes
multiple, independent, direct, link-by-link, verified chains of
evidence to show that MJ-12 is real, or that establishes the
genesis/provenance of the MJ-12 documents?

Ed Stewart
--


Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 12:07:44 -0400
To: ianr@global-data.com
From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ebk@nobelmed.com>
Subject: UFO UpDate: Re: MJ-12 - An Estimate of the Situation

From: egs@netcom.com (Edward G. Stewart)
Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: MJ-12 - An Estimate of the Situation
To: ebk@nobelmed.com (UFO UpDates - Toronto)
Date: Sun, 11 Aug 1996 17:34:31 -0700 (PDT)


Regarding: fsphys@brunswickmicro.nb.ca

>I have yet to see a poll of Ufologists showing their views
>about the documents, nor one showing how many have studied
>my report or later papers,

You are absolutely correct. I just took a quick inventory of all
of the articles provided to the mailing list as a chronological
history of MJ-12 as it was picked up by the UFO press, and not
one single scientific poll of serious Ufologists. You don't
suppose that may be because there just aren't that many serious
Ufologists in the world to validate the results of a poll?
Depending on the margin of error one would be willing to accept,
one would need to find between 1600 and 3000. In the absence of
a rigid, well constructed poll, one could always hop to Las
Vegas and get some kind of bet over there. Be curious to see
what kind of odds Nevada is offering on MJ-12? Nevertheless,
polls? I was under the impression that scientists were more
interested in being able to present multiple, independent,
link-by-link, verified chains of evidence. How does one get that
from a poll?

Nevertheless, I did come across quite a few articles that had
forums filled with serious Ufologists discussing their research
findings about the MJ-12 documents. You are in there yourself
presenting your viewpoint. Also, each of the four publications
provided quite extensive space to editorials and investigative
reporting regarding the MJ-12 documents. Over all, about 150
articles detailing the full spectrum of MJ-12 that provides a
substantive sample of what the editors', columnists', and
research writers' opinions were of the MJ-12 documents. Included
is also Richard H. Hall's personal skepticism towards the MJ-12
evidence after submittal of the "Final Report" to the Fund.

>or the data reported in 'Top Secret/Majic'.

I wouldn't mind opening up the discussion on it. I am perplexed,
though. It appears that your claim of providing a "detailed
review of the whole MJ-12 controversy" in an earlier marketing
post to the mailing list is highly selective and does not
include any mention of any of the below:

1. When the MJ-12 documents were first presented to the
Ufological community by Moore-Shandera-Friedman in 1987,
as evidence for MJ-12, they included the Aquarius Project,
CIA/MJ-5 memo, as well as others. The claim then was that
they all came from the same "sources". There is no mention
of them in your new book. All of those documents seem to
simply have disappeared from the face of the earth.
Care to discuss why?

2. It also became known that Bob Pratt was brought in by
Bill Moore to write a novel with him in Jan. 1982
with Moore providing the "technical details" from his
"sources" and passing those on to Pratt. The basis for
the novel was Project Aquarius and the working title was
MAJIK-12. This was a full two years before the alleged
MJ-12 documents were mailed to Shandera in 1984. Pratt
has never supported the "anonymous" MJ-12 documents.
There is no mention of this whole part of the MJ-12
documents controversy. Care to discuss why?

3. Is there some reason why only the first page of the
new MJ-12 Manual was photocopied, the remaining 17
pages were retyped into the book? Also, any reason
the entire manual as received was not printed to the
book? Is there something wrong with the manual pages
you decided not to use?

>I did for example, provide a list of more than 30 pieces of
>information that turned out to be true but were not known
             ---------------------------------------------
>before the documents were received. These items are ignored in
 ----------------------------------
>just about all the criticisms I have seen.

For one thing the more than 30 pieces of information that turn
out to be true are simply not relevant to either providing
direct link evidence to the claim that MJ-12 is real, or to
establish the genesis/provenance of the documents. But since I
brought these issues up in a prior missive and asked if there
was anything in your new book that established the
genesis/provenance of the book or provided direct link evidence
to the central claim that MJ-12 is real without getting a
response, lets move into some of these alleged details that you
claim "...were not known before the documents were received."

Let's take a closer look at this. Canadian Wilbur Smith's memo
was known to Ufologists since the late 70s that linked him to
Vannevar Bush. Friedman himself received a copy of this memo in
the late 70s from researcher Scott Foster. This memo created a
strong interest in Bush Many researchers followed up and tried
to find out as much as they could about Bush.

This interest/research could have uncovered many of Bush's
relationships before the arrival of the MJ-12 film to Shandera,
including the Bush-Menzel "connection". Friedman himself in IUR,
Vol. 13, No.1, Jan/Feb 1988 "The Secret Life of Donald H.
Menzel" stated:


"In checking my files on Vannevar Bush after hearing of the
--------------------------------------
briefing document from Shandera and Bill Moore I found a
letter to Bush from Robert Proctor..."


The Proctor letter establishes the Bush-Menzel connection as
well as the Menzel loyalty hearings. If Friedman already had
this information in his files before hearing of the MJ-12 film,
so could have other researchers interested in Vannevar Bush, as
also other researchers that had co-researched with Friedman in a
generous exchange of research material gathered. And one of them
may well have followed up on the Bush/Menzel lead also.

Also, an FOIA from researcher Robert Todd to the FBI requesting
Menzel's FBI file shows that anyone requesting Menzel's FBI file
would have received information establishing Menzel as a NSA
consultant as well as confirmation of the loyalty hearings
already established with the Proctor letter. Also, the FOIA FBI
file received by Robert Todd showed that Menzel himself
requested his own file shortly before he died in 1976, but died
before receiving it with the FBI sending it to his wife instead.
That means that his wife did know about her husband's NSA
involvement as well as the loyalty hearings since the FBI files
contained that information and more.

Also, many researchers knew that FOIA requests to the FBI were
producing some results. As an instance, Moore, himself in his
own catalogs and newsletters advertised for sale FOIA FBI files
on numerous UFO personalities that he himself secured from the
FBI through the FOIA. This establishes that researchers were
familiar with the process and that data was available on UFO
personalities from the FBI, or for that matter from Moore also.
If Moore wasn't selling a particular UFO personality at the
time, an FOIA to the FBI would have resulted in a reply.
Menzel's was available through the FBI.

As for all the "revelations" regarding Twinning. Twinning was
already a focus of research in ufology before 1984. Friedman
himself stated on page 92 of "Top Secret/Majic":


"As Bill read the memo to me over the phone, I was
immediately reminded of a July 13, 1953 Cutler-Twining
memo we had found in late 1981 at the Library of Congress
-----------------
Manuscript Division."


And from page 101:


"First, Twining's schedules were unclassified - theoretically,
any private citizen could have requested them."

So, not only was Twining a subject of research by UFO
researchers before 1984, but his schedules were unclassified and
easily accessible by anyone.

On "special date" November 18, 1952 MJ-12 Eisenhower briefing.

"General Twinning was definitely at one of the Pentagon
briefings with Eisenhower." page 234.


Since Twinning's schedules were unclassified and easily
accessible and since he had been a major focus of UFO research
well before 1984, as established by the example offered of
Moore/Friedman 1981 archival research of Twinning, any date
associated with Twinning could well have been secured before the
arrival of the MJ-12 film and known to any researcher that was
interested in Twinning. The same holds true for the Sept 18 and
Sept 19 dates associated with Twinning claimed by Friedman as
"insider" only information, but not necessarily so.

On "special date" Sept 24, 1947, date of Truman-Forrestal memo.
Since this date relates also to Bush, who was a major focus of
research due to the 70's Wilbur B. Smith memo, anyone
researching Wilbur Smith/Bush connection during the first half
of the 1980s could have come across this date where he met
Truman. After all, according to Friedman the only date where
Vannevar Bush did meet with Truman in the last months of 1947
was the special date used in the Truman-Forrestal memo. An
outsider with the knowledge of this date may well have found it
extremely attractive since it also included Forrestal, but
Friedman claims only an insider could have known before 1984.
Well, contrary to Stanton Friedman's claim, this date was
already known to outsiders and not just insiders as Friedman
claims. >From page 101 of the 1982 MUFON PROCEEDINGS, William L.
Moore,"The Roswell Investigation: New Evidence In The Search For
A Crashed UFO" writes:


     "On September 24, he [Bush] and the new secretary of
    Defense, James Forrestal, met with President Truman
    at the White House - a meeting which resulted in
    Dr. Bush's appointment as Chairman of the new Research
    and Development Board of the National Military
    Establishment."


And hold in behold, every outsider at that 1982 MUFON Conference
knew also of the "special date" that Friedman in 1996 claims
could only have been known by "insiders" before 1984.

I simply use the above examples to illustrate that Stanton T.
Friedman's claim of "insider information only" in his new book
and as re-stated in this mailing list is full of holes. The only
real surprise that came to most outsiders was Menzel. Many
Ufologists already had pencil connections to the alleged MJ-12
people, but not Menzel, so claims Friedman. Yet, by Friedman's
own admission the Bush-Menzel friendship and loyalty hearing
connection was already in his files before the arrival of the
Shandera film. If it was in his files, it may well also have
been in any of his associates' files and their associates'
files. Since there was a strong interest in Wilbur Smith, anyone
researching Bush could have stumbled across Menzel, or simply
have used the more direct approach and filed an FOIA with the
FBI, something that was being done by many "outsiders".

As I hope I have illustrated above, the "insider information not
known to UFO researchers" arguments are baseless in fact.

To see how an "outsider" could have arrived at a working
script of MJ-12, let's take a look at Bedell Smith.

On "special date" Aug 1, 1950, date of Walter Bedell Smith's
naming to MJ-12. If one was considering Bedell Smith for a role
with MJ-12 based on his future appointment to the CIA effective
Oct 7, 1950, one just needed to check and see what dates
Bedell/Truman had met together retroactively from Oct 7, 1950
and analyze the options. I certainly would not have picked a
date he did not "meet" with Truman. According to Friedman, the
only date in the first 10 months of 1950 that he met with Truman
was the Aug 1, 1950 alleged date of his MJ12 appointment. This
date would of have to been the only date, the only choice, for
either an "insider" as Friedman claims, or an "outsider" which
Friedman claims could not have known.

Friedman's logic in presenting his list of only "insider"
information possible is fallacious. The argument is claiming a
negative. "no outsider" could have known. I have shown that
"outsiders" could have known and in fact are on record as
knowing and being in possession of much of the critical data
regarding Menzel, Twinning and Bush years before the MJ-12 film
arrived at Shandera's mail box, including the entire 1982 MUFON
CONFERENCE "insider information special date of Sep 24, 1947",
courtesy of Bill Moore of the 1984-1987 Moore-Shandera-Friedman
dream team.

Let me repeat my original question. Is there anything in the new
book that establishes multiple, independent, direct,
link-by-link, verified chains of evidence to show that MJ-12 is
real, or that extablishes the genesis/provenance of the MJ-12
documents?

Ed Stewart
--
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ed Stewart - egs@netcom.com - | So Man, who here seems principal alone,
"There is                     | Perhaps acts second to some sphere unknown.
 Something Going On!" ,>'?'<, | Touches some wheel, or verges to some goal,
 -Salvador Freixedo-  ( O O ) | 'Tis but a part we see, and not a whole.
-------------------ooOO-(_)-OOoo------- Alexander Pope, Essay on Man -------







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 27

                Re: Santilli Knew 'Tent Footage' Was a Fraud?

From: James Easton <pulsar@compuserve.com>
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 23:08:01 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 10:25:09 -0500
Subject: Re: Santilli Knew 'Tent Footage' Was a Fraud?


Regarding:

>From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
>Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 08:20:40 +0000
>Subject: Re: Santilli Knew 'Tent Footage' Was a Fraud?

Roger wrote:

>Hi James,

<snip>

>If the info about Santilli processing the film is true, then it
>should be fairly easy to find the lab that did the work.


Roger,

We already know who it's claimed carried out the work. As Bob
Shell will no doubt recall, he confirmed having been informed,
"Film to video transfer was done in London by Rank".

Following a discrete enquiry, Rank clarified that any such
specialist work would be carried out by Rank Video Services in
London and suggested speaking to Roy Liddiard, the senior
manager there.

Familiar with the 'alien autopsy' film, Roy categorically and
formally refuted any suggestion his laboratory had been involved
and noted that even if another specialist laboratory had
processed the 'alien autopsy' film, he would have expected to
have heard something 'on the
grapevine'.


Bob later added:

"When I asked Ray who had done the copying of the original film
to a 16 mm dupe, he said that he wasn't sure.  He told me that
they had gone to one company who had agreed to do the work while
they waited, and that this firm had then changed their story and
said they would have to leave the film and come back and pick it
up later, which they certainly would never have done.

There was then a general conversation in the office as to who
had ultimately done the work.  Ray said something like "We ended
up having it done by Rank, didn't we?" and Chris [Cary] said
something like, "yes, it was Rank.  I'm pretty sure it was
Rank."

They promised to provide me with documentation when they had a
chance".


If Bob ever asked Ray Santilli for an explanation, perhaps he
can comment further.

I did ask Ray about it on a couple of occasions and the
questions were
never answered.



Regarding:

>Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 07:25:51 -0500
>From: Steven W. Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
>Subject: Re: Santilli Knew 'Tent Footage' Was a Fraud?

Steve wrote:

>I believe that Santilli also said the "film" was very fragile and had
>to be transfered to video a frame at a time, which may be the
>"processing" that he has referred to in some statements.


Steve,

Re the supposed condition of the 'archive' film, you may
remember "'My Story', by Ray Santilli", which was posted on the
Paragon web site, in which he claimed:

"After hearing the story I was taken to the cameraman's house
and viewed the footage. The cameraman had one reel of film that
he was able to show on an old projector. He moved the projector
over to a wall and projected the image on the wall itself".

However, in an early interview published by 'Strange Daze'
magazine/newsletter in the UK, he stated:

"...it's an interesting situation, you know, an alien autopsy,
you don't get that offered every day, so we took an internal
flight to his house which was some distance away from where we
met him, and he showed us on film everything that you have now
seen and that everyone has become interested in".


Whether any of the 'aging' film could have been projected, given
its claimed condition, was a question I asked Bob Shell and he
replied:

"The film Ray/Volker have is, according to them, extremely
brittle. If the pieces I have indeed come from this film, it is
far too brittle to be projected.  That is why I assume a later
copy is what was projected".


>Santilli indicated that the "cameraman" had to process a number of
>reels of film that required special processing, which I assume means
>a varying degree of 'push' processing for those rolls that needed it.
>These rolls he allegedly had to be processed by hand, which is why
>they  were still in his possession and not sent to Washington with
>the rest.

>From that alleged to be 'statement' by the 'cameraman':

"After filming, I had several hundred reels. I separated problem
reels which required special attention in processing (these I
would do later). The first batch was sent through to Washington
and I processed the remainder a few days later. Once the
remaining reels had been processed, I contacted Washington to
arrange collection of the final batch. Incredibly, they never
came to collect or arrange transportation for them. I called
many times and then just gave up. The footage has remained with
me ever since".

This story bites!

The 'alien autopsy' footage isn't a few 'problem reels', it's
effectively the entire filming of the purported event. Much of
the 'documentation' absent from the footage is in fact missing
due to broken sequences within the reels which do exist, in
other words, the missing segments were never filmed.

Entirely consistent of course with a hoaxed 'alien autopsy'.


It's easily proven by the crucial reel numbering as documented
in the 'raw footage', only released on video  - 'Roswell: The
Footage' - by Ray's company, that out of entire 'alien autopsy'
reels, which begin at reel number 53 and end at reel number 65
or 66, Ray supposedly has reels numbered 53, 54 or 55, 56, 59,
61, 62, 63, 64, and 65 or 66.

He also produced a photocopied label claimed to be from 'Reel #
52', the 'Truman' reel which was 'stuck together'.


So what did 'Washington' get?

At most they could only have received 4, maybe 5, of all the
'second alien autopsy' reels alleged to have been filmed.

Ray Santilli, as clearly evidenced by his own claims, has all
the rest.


Not only does this prove the 'cameraman' story to be somewhat
factually challenged, it's incredulous that the absence of
basically the entire film would never be noticed!

These are anomalies which any hoaxers would find difficult to
overcome if producing a convincingly lengthy 'alien autopsy'.
The ideal solution would be film unbroken sequences on each reel
and then you could declare the absent film documentation was on
the reels which were sent to 'Washington', in essence, what was
claimed. The problem would be, how to film long, unbroken
sequences which wouldn't allow time to 'skip' the more difficult
to fake 'procedures'.

What you would conceivably end up with are reels of film which
show parts of the 'autopsy', have numerous 'cuts' and which are
a summary of the entire event.

Exactly what we see on the film.



Regarding:

>Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 08:48:47 +0000
>Subject: Re: Santilli Knew 'Tent Footage' Was a Fraud?
>From: Bob Shell <bob@bobshell.com>

Bob wrote [in reply to Roger Evans]:

>>The accuracy of the price not withstanding, is it known if the
>>"test piece" was taken from a processed or unprocessed reel?

>Processed. And Kodak in London looked only at the edge markings,
>triangle and square, and said the film was definitely 1947. So did
>Kodak in Denmark. However, just like Ray these were younger people
>who did not know that the film identification chart they were using,
>printed by Kodak in Rochester, has an error which makes it seem that
>only in 1947 were a solid triangle and square used, while the ID
>marks for 1967 are shown in outline. When apprised of this error,
>they amended their statements to say the film could be 1947 or 1967
>(and remotely 1927).


Bob,

For the record, Kodak in Hemel Hempstead, London were asked to
examine a blank strip of film and confirmed the edge codes
suggested it could date from either 1927, 1947 or 1967.

It was only the Copenhagen office who didn't realise that the
edge codes repeated every 20 years.

It's something of an irrelevance as they were also asked to
offer an opinion on blank frames of film.



Regarding:

>Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 09:49:30 -0500
>From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Santilli's Film Scraps

Steve wrote:

>>Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 13:09:43 +0000
>>Subject: Re: Santilli's Film Scraps
>>From: Bob Shell <bob@bobshell.com>

>Bob-

>As I recall, the producer of the Channel 4 production in Great
>Britain in 1995 was sent more "samples" of the alleged film than
>anyone else. I have written to him, but got no response, and have no
>idea what kind of testing (if any) that he might have pursued.  Do
>you know how much film he had been sent, and whether or not he has
>pursued that angle at all.


Steve,

In a timely coincidence, Channel 4 repeated their 'Incident at
Roswell' documentary last night. It was essentially the same,
three-year old program, primarily addressing the 'Roswell' story
and briefly featuring the 'alien autopsy'.

The only possible additional information of remote consequence
(I can't recall this in the original broadcast) was that they
showed the 'film samples' which John Purdie has, with the
comment:

"After repeated requests, Ray Santilli did eventually provide
some frames of film for testing - a fragment of film leader and
an image of a Naval Officer that could have come from anywhere.
They bear no relation to any image in the autopsy footage and as
such are quite useless in establishing its authenticity".

Like the 'tent footage' which supposedly originated from the
'scrap reel' of aged, 16mm film, sold by the 'Roswell
cameraman', there is a distinct conclusion that there was never
any archive, 16mm 'alien autopsy' footage.


As that was always the default explanation, whilst open to
tangible evidence otherwise, of more interest became the
question of how this film had been perceived (and why almost
every expert opinion could be set against another one which was
contrary).

There may be numerous photographs and film, or video, which
depict apparently credible and anomalous unidentified objects.
However, none of them, even if genuine, are unequivocal evidence
of anything non-terrestrial.

The released 'alien autopsy' film depicted something which it
became clear could not conceivably be terrestrial and as footage
which was sufficiently credible to be taken seriously and indeed
determined by many medical experts to show a once living being,
it was not only compelling, it may be the closest thing to
absolute testimony of a non-human life form that many/any of us
will ever see.


So how was it generally perceived by 'ufologists'?

For some reason, there was a considerable hostile reaction to
the film.

Some of that was down to the challenge, if not threat, against
the 'true' Roswell story and the real 'alien autopsies'.

Ray Santilli had, including the largely unseen, yet apparently
equally credible 'first autopsy', some 20+ minutes of film
proclaiming to be evidence of a non-terrestrial life-form, with
some decent quality 'Roswell' debris thrown in! What was the
serious competition - the anecdotes of Glenn Dennis and Frank
Kaufmann?


A poignant commentary came from Rob Irving, who after the
inaugural 'Museum of London' showing of the 'alien autopsy',
wrote in 'Fortean Times':

"Perhaps strangest of all was the sight of that awkward mix of
known-believers in the ET hypothesis, known disbelievers,
believed fakers of it, innocent ostentionists, and the downright
disingenuous, all hissing 'hoax' at a piece of evidence that
seemed to me as impressive as any I'd seen.

But never in my lifetime had I expected to witness the
subsequent co-operation between traditional adversaries, all
seemingly galvanised into an unprecedented gush of agreement -
adopting what one of them called, 'a proper, sceptical attitude'
- that the film was a transparent fraud. Uh...? For, whoever is
responsible for the film has now provided ufologists with what
I'd assumed they had always wanted; firm, enticingly
inconclusive evidence that something _out there_ has somehow got
here".


One obvious problem was the absence of conclusive evidence,
although no preceding claims of 'non-terrestrial contact' had
provided this!

There were, however, unprecedented medical opinions which seemed
satisfied that the film was authentic and many unanswered
questions, which remain, about some of the impressive,
presumed/accepted SFX, the entire premise of financing two
superbly crafted 'alien autopsies', confidently taking it to
recognised experts in diverse, related fields, preventing any
'leaks' about its true origins, etc.

Are there any preceding or subsequent cases which,
comparatively, come close to providing so much scientifically
grounded substantiation?

Overall, surely enough to merit consideration as 'best evidence'
ever.

You won't see it in the top 10...20...30... though!

Why is that?


If Ray Santilli had merely claimed he was walking along London
Bridge, when he was abducted by aliens who told him that
'Roswell' and 'MJ-12' were real, maybe that would have been more
acceptable and he would have found a warm welcome, perhaps even
have become a celebrated 'abductee' at the annual conferences.

Yes, I know that's slightly facetious and intentionally so to
make a point.

But how far is it from 'the truth'?


What if... Ray Santilli claimed he had been threatened by
sinister representatives of the US government. Would the 'alien
autopsy' instantly have been perceived as 'probably authentic'?

Think about it.


These are questions, not necessarily opinions...

Some reflections on a saga, which I believe Bob Shell once
astutely referred to as "smoke and mirrors".



James.
E-mail: pulsar@compuserve.com





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 27

                    Re: 200 Questions-Remember Bennewitz!

From: Mike Farrell <mikefarr@midcoast.com.au>
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 15:09:40 +1100
Fwd Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 10:29:26 -0500
Subject: Re: 200 Questions-Remember Bennewitz!


Hello UpDates List,

I just got a funny feeling listening to all this talk about the
"200 questions" and the reputations, credibiltiy, and
accountability implied. Do you all remember what happened to Dr.
Paul Bennewitz. If not, look in any good UFO book for
references.

Now here was a man who lived next door to the Kirkland Air Force
base in New Mexico back in 1979-80, and is generally credited
for having offered the ultimate fear-mongering conspiracy
theories about the "aliens" and secret government involvements.
He claimed to have picked up electromatic signals from UFOs and
had translated their messages. He also took over 2600 feet of
8mm motion picture film of UFOs over the weapons test and
storage area. Eventually, after "flack" from "officials" and
"ufologists", and fearing that aliens were coming through his
bedroom wall at night and injecting him with chemicals, he
"suffered a mental breakdown and was hospitalized." (ref: Cosmic
Test Tube, pg 167 & 321, by Randall Fitzgerald)

Now this is not about "Bennewitz", but what is happening to
Richard Hoagland gives me the same kind of feeling. We are now
in a crucial year in the "battle" for the "hearts and the minds"
of the people. (remember vietnam!)

We're going to hear lots of claims and counter claims for the
true picture of UFO reality in 1999, as we build up momentum for
the dramatic climax or anti-climax of the year 2000. (ready or
not-the millineum bug awaits us!)

Granted, we've been hearing some pretty outrageuos claims by
Richard Hoagland, Art Bell, Peter Gersten, and the like. And the
"Lord of the UFO Dance" in the current guise of Robert Stephen,
is a voice to be reckoned with!:->   But let's not be too quick
to put heads under the guillotine. Each person has made a
valuable contribution to the credibility and the awareness level
of the Global UFO Communtiy. And we can't expect everybody to be
"right" all the time. Some people will be remembered not for
their conclusions, but for what they brought to our attention.

The fact is, Richard Hoagland single-handedly drove home the
point that NASA does indeed deserve it's acronym "Never A
Straight Answer". And if you want to argue that point, it still
doesn't dismiss the fact that public perception of such agencies
is sorely lacking in Trust and Confidence. We all know that
where's there's smoke, there's usually fire! NASA has not been
completely honest and responsive to the citizens that began and
still pay for it's missions. Most NASA activity is now
classified military priorities. As the citizens of Earth, we are
still waiting for accurate and comprehensive images from Earth's
orbit and our Solar System. NASA and the world's military still
treat the average citizen as unworthy cannon-fooder at best and
as contemptable meddlers at worst.

As I like to tell people, it's not like NASA and the Military
get their funding from selling lemonade on the corner. They get
their money from the honest, ignorant, naive, intimidated, and
fearful TAXPAYERS of the world, not to mention from the
weaknesses of drug addicts, who depend on those regular CIA drug
shipments!:->

So what's the point here? Let's not lose respect for those
ufologists who have opened our eyes to the "slight of hand
tricks" by "secret governments" and "puppet politicians" who
can't keep their pants on while working!

Let the challenges be made, and let the challenged answer in an
open forum. And let the "researchers" decide! Perhaps all those
asking these 200 questions and those who should answer them,
would do well to remember, that many of us "on the sidelines"
have been at this UFO business a lot longer than most. We are no
longer living back in the 80's when wild speculations ruled the
day.

This is 1999. And we are facing the new millineum with litle
patience for that which does not further the Truth. And guess
what, we are "big enough" to handle whatever comes out into the
open to be considered and examined. There's a whole new breed of
researcher "out there" today, armed with the modern tools of
communication and cooperation, and the willingness and the
determination to think for ourselves and question all authority.

It's always been up to the people. We just never had the means
to make our voice heard and count in numbers as never before.
The powers that be know this and will do everything to confuse
and distract us from dealing with the "real issues" at hand. If
you doubt the power of the organized people, just imagine what
would happen if all the consumers in the world agreed not to pay
their next month's mortgage, until the governments and churches
opened all their files for public review. A scary thought for
bankers everywhere!

"It has to be possible for the average citizen to turn on his
computer and get any piece of information the government
possesses or we don't have a free society". (Whitley Strieber)

Let's get to it Hoagland and Stephens! You both have your
supporters and critics. What we need is the Truth from each of
you as you know it. Then have the confidence that "we" can
recognize what is of value to the future of Global UFO Research
and Awareness.

"There's no reason in the world why we cannot understand who we
truly are, why we are here and where we are going. There's no
reason why the average individual cannot be fully empowered to
meet the cosmos on his own terms. We are incredibly powerful,
beautiful and extraordinary beings! We have to wake up to that!
And when we do wake up to that, we're going to sweep aside the
cancer that is eating our governments and we're going to find
the truth about whether there are any 'aliens' here, and we'll
learn to work with them productively if they are!"  (Whitley
Strieber)

********************************************
We need each other to figure this thing out!
********************************************
____________________________________
The Truth is Just Around the Corner!
Mike Farrell


______________________________
Director of Project GUFONE '98
(Global UFO Newsvideo Exchange)
http://www.fan.net.au/~tkbnetw/mikes.htm
http://www.ufor.asn.au
------------------------------
P.O.Box 2526
Port Macquarie
New South Wales 2444
Australia
*************************************************************************
 "And since seldom do instruments record flying saucers,
  it's the people who report seeing them that are the most significant
  way of getting at the Truth!" (J. Allen Hynek)
**************************************************************************





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 27

                           Re: A Tale from Africa

From: Leanne Martin <leanne_martin@hotmail.com>
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 20:22:15 PST
Fwd Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 10:32:26 -0500
Subject: Re: A Tale from Africa


>From: George Filer <Majorstar@aol.com>
>Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 22:54:11 EST
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Re: A Tale from Africa

>>Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 02:23:43 -0500
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net>
>>Subject: Re: A Tale from Africa

>>The Irish country folks used to put their male children to bed
>>in girls dressing gowns (in order to disguise their sex) because
>>(according to legend) "the wee folk" would come in the night and
>>steal away with the child.

<snip>

G'day List,

(Aside) Have we stumbled on the real cause of the Irish
"Troubles" here? <g>

All those young boys expressing their sexuality/gender
frustrations by over-compensation -> running around as adults
blowing each other up under the veil of (dare I touch the
subject again?) religious differences? <g>

Oh dear . . . what will Mr. Mortallaro think of me now? <g>

Regards,
Leanne  ];-)






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 27

                         Flying Discs: A Poetic View

From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@get2net.dk>
Date: Wed,  27 Jan 1999 04:38:59 GMT
Fwd Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 10:44:29 -0500
Subject: Flying Discs: A Poetic View

On Wed,  27 Jan 1999 03:49:21 GMT,  in alt.alien.visitors
cyrano@pasdepub.com wrote:

Flying discs and other "mysteries", as seen by biologists and
physicists:A poetical view

-----------------------------------------------------------------

Bangkoc, 22 Janvier 2542 (European calendar)

During my life, as a biologist trained, first, in molecular
biology, then in the neurosciences and psychiatry, I came,
several times, in contact with the irritating problem of the
so-called "flying saucers". The first time, obviously, was as a
kid, during my childhood in Geneve, Switzerland, my home.

Many of my fellow scientists, while kids, started their interest
in Science with, of course, "mysterious" things such as
cryptozoology(the study of undiscovered animals, like the
mokele-membe, for example, a purported Loch Ness monster of
Africa...), "telepathy", flying saucers, the sasquatch or yeti,
ghosts, etc, etc.

These imaginary things were the very essence of our motivations
during our childhood:curiosity for the "mysterious".

I remember these great nights when, friends and I, we would go
on the top of our buildings, at the age of 12, to look the sky,
with binoculars, for flying saucers only to find (while
descending from the attic) policemen waiting for us downstairs
and asking:"what were you doing there with binoculars, kids?
Observing naked girls?"

And we, naively, replied:"No, Sir.We were looking for flying
saucers!". Swiss people are extremely suspicious so that
innocent children tracking flying saucers in the skies are
confused with sex "voyeurs"!

Read the "Little Prince" from Saint-Exupery...

Later, in life, when we discovered the scientific method we had
to abandon, one by one, these enjoyable fantasies which
populated our childhood. It was sad to see that the stars in the
sky we saw were, only, stars and that the moving lights, at
night, were, always, airplanes and not cavorting Martians....

Still, when I speak with little children about the moving lights
of the airplanes, I tell them:"See? These are the Martians!" And
their eyes glitter, like when they think about Santa-Claus!

Let them dream a bit.They will have time to learn that moving
lights are not reindeers or Martians but, only, airplanes or
shooting stars...

As to me, only two of these mysterious fantasies of our
childhood remain unexplained to the present day:

1. The flying discs

2. The Sasquatch!

From the point of view of biology I, quickly, discovered that
such things as "telepathy", "paranormal" phenomena, "Loch Ness
monsters or mokele-membe monsters were, only, figments of
imagination.

As a biologist, and with the present day data, all the above
"mysteries" have been trashed in my mind as I consider them
non-existent.

Still, I see that grown-up physicists are, still, playing with
these "mysteries" of our childhood, especially those physicists
who manipulate a lot of numbers and quantum mechanics, what I
call "hypermathematisation".

When I read some of the naivete they write, like "quantum
consciousness", etc, I start to think:"Gosh! They still believe
in Santa!"

Concerning the sasquatch, I could not yet make any logical
conclusion because the data about this alleged
Gigantopithecus(according to Napier)are too few to go in one way
or another:fantasy, reality? I simply do not know.

When I was 16 years old we once read in the newspaper that there
had been a flying saucer landing, near Geneve, but in nearby
France, in a place called "Marliens".

My older brother Alain seized this opportunity(he was preparing
his master in molecular biology)in order to verify if what
journalists wrote was true or not.

So we all went, in a tiny red Austin car, to Marliens, near the
town of Dijon, France, in 1968 !

When we arrived at Marliens we saw the track which had, already,
half been explored by the local Gendarmerie.

The track was very bizarre and the ground was all covered of a
"mauve"(light violet colour)powder which was, later, found to be
silicon which had started to melt, at around 1500 degrees, if I
remember the Gendarmerie report?

In French "Marliens" rhymes with "Martien" (Martians)so the
jokes were going high about the peasant who complained to the
Gendarmerie about this vandalism in his field!

Speaking with the Gendarmes, they told us that an unidentified
object had been detected over a military base, in Pontoise, not
far from Marliens, on the same night or day when the bizarre
track was found.

The naivete of childhood or adolescence is beautiful:we felt
much awe, thinking that a flying saucer had landed here!!!

Up to now, I do not know what really happened in Marliens as,
like in the extraordinary flying discs wave of 1954, over
France, only the Gendarmerie made a report and that was all.
Apart from the silicon story, apparently nothing serious was
done.I brought some back home, kept it for years, in a bottle,
then threw it away.

In 1954, a huge number of flying discs were seen,
simultaneously, by full villages, sometimes, even landed!

Many tracks were found, at that time, but most were not
investigated in the way it should have been done.

So, because of prejudice and fear of ridicule, we lost an
extraordinary occasion to study physical data, in 1954.

At that time, for 3 months, the "M.O.C", as Aime Michel called
the saucers, were, literally, cavorting in the skies of France!

The first "sauceronaut", in that extraordinary period, was met
by a French peasant in a place called "le Plateau de
Millevaches" which might translate, into my poor English, as
something like "the plateau of the 1000 cows", quite a nice name
for an extraterrestrial first contact with a French!

Monsieur Mazeau, the peasant who encountered this strange "man"
"venu d'Ailleurs"(coming from Elsewhere, as we often say, in
French) first reported the incident to his wife, then all the
village knew the hilarious story of Monsieur Mazeau and the
Gendarmerie came to question him! They found a very frightened
man. Later, when he started to realise that he had perhaps an
exceptionnal encounter he became angry and exploded with :"I
should have killed him, I should have killed him so you would
see that what I say is true"....

The same night, small beings were seen in the north of France,
in another famous case, the case of Monsieur Dewilde.

He was so shocked by what happened that he was, literrally,
defecating of fear when he spoke with the Gendarmes about the
flying saucer he saw, landed, and these little men who
"paralysed" him, probably by inducing a form of akinesia through
unknown external means.

A famous case was the Premanon case, where young children, in
the Jura mountains, not so far from my home, Geneve, saw what
they called "ghosts" and what appeared to be a standard flying
disc.

What is interesting, in 1954, is that we can, already, discover
in the reports of Unconventional Flying Objects(as called by the
late Hill), indications that these machines are surrounded by a
repulsive force looking like a "negative" form of gravity.

For example, in the Premanon case the children reported effects
which could only be explained by a repulsive force of some kind,
but a repulsive force different from magnetism because it acts
on all matter.

During that time, a French officer who served in Vietnam,
lieutenant Plantier, wrote a book about the "propulsion" of
"flying saucers"! What is interesting is that, many years later,
Hill wrote a book with ideas similar to those of Plantier.

It seems quite clear, by the way, that Plantier and Hill's books
have influenced those scientists trying to find ways to
manipulate mass and inertia, like Haisch and Puthoff, not to
speak about the steps of the NASA, through Marc Millis, towards
discovering new means of propulsion. Aime Michel said
once:"progress in the study of flying discs will start when
physics will start to evolve". This was prophetic!

Well.

After sometimes I forgot about the flying discs, to concentrate
on other more "serious" topics.

The last article I wrote on this topic was in 1976 or 1977, I
guess? This article was called the "Induced Dream Hypothesis".

In it, I speculated that many crazy things described in close
encounters of the third kind, as defined by the late Allen
Hynek, might be amenable to scientific analysis if we postulated
that, somewhat, saucers seen at a close range could interfere
with the normal functioning of the brain and turn on those
neural switches, in the Pons, which trigger dreams.

I speculated, then, that, perhaps, properly modulated
micro-waves might interfere with those brain structures leading
to dream.

The bona fide, with this hypothesis, is that it was able to give
a logical explanation for "paralysis" because, when we dream,
our motor efferents become blocked(this is different from
akinesia, as found in Parkinsonism, for example, or catatonia,
as found in catatonic schizophrenics).

I also wrote an article explaining why I thought it was useless
to try to contact ETI, like Carl Sagan wanted with the SETI
project, because, I reasoned, our system of communication was,
certainly, very, very primitive as compared to possible advanced
means of communication which, logically, advanced intelligences
might use.

As you can see, from all the "mysteries" of my childhood only 2
remain, now.Le "Petit Prince" has closed his book and went back
to his little tiny planet, to take care of his rose and get rid
of the baobabs(see Antoine de Saint-Exupery, The Little Prince)!

Studying the flying discs through an eye of a
biologist/theoretical psychiatrist, I came to the conclusion
that, some reports, are, clearly, authentic.

Obviously, this poses great many challenges to both the
biologists and physicists!

A biologist will ask himself, for example:

-How come do these beings from "l'Ailleurs" (the Elsewhere)
resemble so much to homo sapiens?

- Can they breathe our atmosphere?

- If yes, what about bacteria and viruses? Are they immune to
these?

- What about the structure of their brain?

- What about the structure of their amino-acids and DNA-mimetic?

- What about their attitude of non-contact?


A physicist will be flabbergasted by the apparent unusual flight
behaviour of these machines and his first natural reaction will
be to dismiss them because they "defy" the laws of physics.

In this respect, I think Plantier and Hill made a great job to
show that the flying discs obeyed the laws of physics, but
"transcended" them, in the words of Dr Pierre Guerin.

Not a long time ago, the founder of the French GEPAN (now it has
a different name), Dr Claude Poher, said that "he did not care
at all about who piloted these machines but his only interest
was how did they FLY !!!".

The GEPAN was created by the French CNES.

In fact, it was Claude Poher who gave me, again, some interest
in this topic when I was on the verge of throwing everything in
the garbage can, out of frustration!

He said that younger scientists should pursue the study of this
phenomenon. But, to study "flying saucers" is ridiculous, as
everyone knows...

As to me, I am more interested in the theoretical psychology of
these people from "l'Ailleurs" than Claude Poher, especially
because I have studied consciousness, both from within and
externally, since 1976.

I am interested to understand how more advanced brains might
function and I have, already, some interesting thoughts about
this.

For example, I found that consciousness is the result of an
induced resonance in the memory areas of the brain. This
resonance is fractal-like in structure.

What leads to the fractal-like resonances, between memory
domains, leading then to consciousness, is a little system,
situated in the brain stem, and which I termed the S.A.C,
meaning the "consciousness activating system", in French.

The purpose of the SAC is to hypermetabolise tiny areas of our
global memory which, when activated,
"radiate"(see:http://dog.net.uk/claude for explanations of the
terminology)in our imaginary space-time, leading to fractal-like
resonances, that is conscious events of real or non-real
events(like in dreams or schizophrenia).

Another highly important thing which I discovered, through a
molecule called psilocin(e)is that consciousness can be
monofocal or polyfocal. Psilocin(e) is a cogitatiogenic molecule
which means that it is a molecule which increases our thoughts,
by stimulating the functionning of this part of our brain which
makes us, so specifically human:the pre-frontal cortex.

Our normal form of consciousness is monofocal, which means that
we can be conscious and focus only on 1 thing at a time.

With psilocine, consciousness can become polyfocal and you start
to be, simultaneously, conscious of different perceptions.

It is a quite extraordinary phenomenon which, I think, should be
increased in higher forms of intelligences.

How?

By constructing(through what I call "neuromorphogenetics", a
science not born yet)a much stronger SAC, ramifying,
extensively, within the fabric of memory.

Another thing which I have discovered is that biological
memories(I guess, at least in mammals)have the equivalent of
what computer scientists call "softwares" and "hardwares".

The basic software of our brains is called an M.H.V. The basic
hardware is called an Unime (from the French "unites
memorielles").

Both are structured in a simple reiterated way and function in a
fractal-like way.

The importance of intelligence relies on many factors:the
performances of the SAC, the number of connections between the
Unimes and the intensity of the metabolism going on in the MHVs.

Our consciousness, alas, can function only between 2 natural
metabolic barriers.

The higher barrier is called the "illusion threshold". The lower
barrier is called the "serotoninergic threshold".

The normal waking state metabolism leading to our normal waking
state consciousness is called, obviously, the base-line level of
consciousness.

An important discovery of mine is that consciousness is,
crucially, linked to metabolism versus time:

The higher the metabolism of the MHVs and the higher
consciousness is, AT THE EXPENSE of the available time of
consciousness. The lower the metabolism of the MHVs and the
lower consciousness is, however you can be conscious for an
extended period of time.

Our memory is structured in such a way that there is a LIMIT to
the theoretical "size" of our consciousness, per unit of
time.The more our consciousness expands and the less time we
have to be conscious! It is a kind of "Heisenberg-like"
principle, if you want an analogy!!!

This can be, very nicely, demonstrated with cannabis sativa:it
makes us more conscious, but only for SHORT intervals of
time.The net result of this is that we forget our illuminations!

However, this can be modulated by molecules called the
benzodiazepines, like Valium, for example(for example,
associating cannabis with benzodiazepines enhances creativity).

From these things I deduce that higher forms of intelligence
might, reasonably, be likewise:

1.They will have a much bigger SAC, in order to produce and
maintain a constant polyfocality For example, a highly polyfocal
consciousness could focus on hundreds of different events
simultaneously!

2.They will have much more connections between their Unimes than
we have

3.They will have found a way to maintain a high metabolism of
Memory without paying the time price we have to pay.

Now, let us come to an additional thing which should distinguish
them from us:their communication systems.

As we can see when we are debating in this forum, for example,
sequential symbolic communication is quite limited(and it is an
euphemism...)and when we try to "communicate" the noise on the
line, between us, is so high that, most often, we do not
understand one another!

This problem will be solved through neuromorphogenetics, by
creating artificial "telepathy", that is the transmission of
non-sequential non-symbolic information emitted at a very high
rate of "bits" per second.

With such a communicational system the data transfer between 2
communicating individuals will proceed at a huge speed and with
practically no distorsion.

So to items 1, 2, and 3 we have to add this fourth item: higher
forms of intelligences should communicate with a non-sequential,
hyper-fast and exceedingly low distorsion system.

This is equivalent to the concept of "telepathy" of
science-fiction writers!

Now, coming back to the flying discs!

If these are real, their occupants might well have achieved,
already, the 4 points I have been talking about.

In this case, the logical result of this, for us, is:
NON-CONTACT.

And this is what is observed!

So this is the way I see things, as a biologist having
specialised in the study of the brain and consciousness.

One day, those courageous physicists who are now trying to
understand the structure of the Vacuum will be rewarded and one
of the reward will be the construction of flying discs by the
human species!

Perhaps, only then, some form of limited contact might arise
but, still, as long as we cannot work on the 4 points I have
mentionned, I think that any full contact will not occur and I
think that we are totally wasting our money with the SETI
project.Advanced intelligences, probably, do not communicate
like we do but might use means of communication totally unknown
to us. Remember the idea of the Alcubierre interstellar parcels,
for instance! Of course it needs a lot of energy but we are
talking here of advanced intelligences, not homo sapiens lost in
a forest with electromagnetic tam tam!

Money should better be given to these enthusiastic physicists
who decided to understand a bit more than traditionnal quantum
mechanics.

I am not at all a physicist but I think, intuitively, that
physics will become a properly organised science, like, let say,
molecular biology or biochemistry, only when the microstructure
of exoreality will have been correctly understood.

Basically this means that we have to understand how the Vacuum
and "particles" link to one another.

An intuition of mine is that the Vacuum looks like something
crystalline, a fractal representation of the crystalline nature
of the atomic world. Poetry?

Are the quarks of protons and neutrons stuck into crystal
facets? Poetry again!

This intuition about a crystalline-like spacetime came to me
last December, when watching  frozen ice, scintillating, on a
road nearby my home in Geneve.

Why?

Because, everwhere, in Nature, we see similar crystal-like
patterns appearing again and again, and again, at different
scales, like in fractals:atoms, molecules, proteins, viruses,
the foraminifera, the diatomea, beehives, and even in corals!

All this seems to me to be the fractal macroscopic
representation of a microscopic structure of exoreality akin to
crystals.

"Particles" might just be stable vibrations of lattices of a
crystalline vacuum.Poetry?

After I got this intuition, I searched in the net if anybody had
ever thought about the idea that spacetime might be like a huge
crystal-like "pomagranate"( ! ) and guess what I found?

The articles of David Ritz Finkelstein on the "adamantine"
aether! Crackpotry? How can I know? You are the physicists, not
me!

I was amazed. Following the roads of intuition is amusing
because you never know where you are going to go.

The future will tell us if the works of Finkelstein or Tessien
went in the good direction or not.

As to me, of course, I cannot answer! Physics is not my field
and I am just a babbling baby in your field, chaps!

I am a child, with glittering eyes, waiting to see some of those
great minds in Physics explaining to us, the ignorants, at last,
a physics having reached the status of molecular biology or
pharmacology.

Hey, Santa Claus! Explain us how the world is made?

Where are the Santa-Claus? Perhaps, one of you, here, IS a
Santa-Claus already!!!

Cordially yours,

Claude







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 27

                       Re: Underwater UFO Phenomenon?

From: Leanne Martin <leanne_martin@hotmail.com>
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 21:10:50 PST
Fwd Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 10:51:21 -0500
Subject: Re: Underwater UFO Phenomenon?


>From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
>Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 08:35:24 +0000
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: Underwater UFO Phenomenon?

>>From: Leanne Martin <leanne_martin@hotmail.com>
>>Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 15:42:02 PST
>>Fwd Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 03:26:27 -0500
>>Subject: Re: Underwater UFO Phenomenon?
>
>>>From: Sefer Murat Aksoy <murataksoy@lycosmail.com>
>>>Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 02:51:16 -0500 (EST)
>>>To: updates@globalserve.net
>>>Subject: Underwater UFO Phenomenon?

>Previously, Leanne had relayed to us this story:

>>I had an interesting conversation with a friend two days who
>>related to me the following (paraphrased):

>>"Several years ago we were sailing around the bottom of
>>Tasmania, near Port Davey, and we know the area can produce good
>>shows of phosphorescent algae but we weren't prepared for what
>>we came upon.

>>I was standing watch aft and it was a beautifully clear night. I
>>became aware that there very bright submerged lights way ahead
>>and we were sailing straght for them. As we got closer I could
>>see how intense they were but I couldn't guage their depth. The
>>whole area was covered with them and they stretched on into the
>>distance. I have seen a lot of things at sea but nothing like
>>this. They looked just like bright light streaming from port
>>holes in a submarine. (The speaker was a navy diving instructor
>>for several years.) Also, they were lined up very regularly in
>>rows - vast rows.

>>This spooked me like you wouldn't believe so I went and got the
>>boat owner and showed him. He was awe struck! I told him that I
>>didn't want to go any further as I feared hitting one or more
>>solid submerged objects and insisted that we change course. He
>>agreed and we left the area. I haven't seen anything like it
>>since and I visit the area on a regular basis in my own vessel
>>still."

>Hi Leanne,

>Have you ever been on one of the "Ride Film" attractions where
>the seats move in conjunction with the movie you're seeing? Or
>perhaps one of the many IMAX screenings, 3D or otherwise? In
>many ways, the story you relate is an example of a UFO related
>question I've thought about for a long time:

>"When is 'real' real?"

<snip>

>It's too bad we don't have a device to guage this type of
>"anxiety response", it might go a long way toward separating out
>the authentic sightings.

>On the other hand, it might just be glowing algae beneath the
>surface!


G'day Roger & List,

I know the type of ride you mean and have experienced it but
once.

On the other issue: "When is Real Real?"

Different people may react differently to the same real/unreal
event (and lets face it, thank goodness for the diversity!) and
you would find you 'anxiety meter' react accordingly different.
(Note: there are already anxiety meters in the form of lie
detectors.)

Factors such as religious indoctrination, mental illness
history, self esteem, life history and I.Q., to name but a few,
would all have a bearing on the anxietal response.

Apropo the glowing algae - it is more than likely my friend's
vision was of nothing more than swarms of fish in feeding
frenzies or some equally logical axplanation. Bearing in mind
that the human brain is pre-wired to find order in chaos and, as
this example has shown, patterns in the noise, it is
understandable that he had found 'rows of lights stretching into
the distance'. The larger the sample the greater the chance of
'fixing' a pattern into it plus the effects of perspective given
his angles of reference (being so close to the water surface).

Regards,
Leanne  ];-)






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 27

                       Re: 25 Rules of Disinformation

From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net>
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 00:55:51 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 10:54:35 -0500
Subject: Re: 25 Rules of Disinformation


>From: UFO UpDates - Toronto [mailto:updates@globalserve.net]
>Sent: Monday, January 18, 1999 11:14 AM
>To: UFO UpDates Subscribers :;
>Subject: UFO UpDate: Re: 25 Rules of Disinformation
>>Gary, did anyone ever see Hynek enter this federal building,
>>and take the elevator to the floor where that "gear locker"
>>was?

>>Greg Sandow

>Gee, Mr. Sandow, I don't know!  What a shock!  Obviously my
>life's work is crushed by this massive attack on my position!
>What can I possibly do to recover!  Holy Cats, I'm ruined!

I was making a joke, as the very self-important Gary failed to
notice.

As for the rest of Gary's comments, in my "sophomoric" (his
word) way I actually smoked out a tangible -- hard to believe,
but there it was! -- reason why he believes poor dead J. Allen
Hynek was an intelligence agent. Hynek once asked some fellow
astronomers what they thought about UFOs, and passed the
information on to the Air Force, for whom he was serving as
consultant!

The wonderful thing about this incident is that it's very well
known. For years, in other words, the UFO community has known
about this little deception on Hynek's part, and not drawn
conclusions from it. Silly us, perhaps. Maybe we thought the
deception didn't amount to much, didn't involve any serious
breach of confidence, and didn't provide any damaging
information -- as, let's say, reporting to the Air Force and the
CIA on the state of CUFOS's finances might have, later in
Hynek's life. Who among us has not, once or twice, gone on a
similar "mission" for somebody we know? "God, I've got such a
crush on Marjorie," our friend might tell us. "You know lots of
her friends. Would you kind of talk to them, ask them a few
questions, try to find out if Margie likes me? Don't say I asked
you to!"

Gary has been telling us for quite a while that Hynek was
involved in dirty intelligence stuff, and that he has evidence
to show that, although he won't share any of it. Now he opens
the door just a crack to the secret room where, apparently, he
stashes his evidence, and....lo! It's something everyone knew
all along! Something Hynek freely talked about! Gary, of course,
reads far more into it than anybody else ever did....but wait, I
forgot: He has all that OTHER evidence.

And, of course, he's always right. Just ask him.

Greg Sandow






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 27

                           Re: RAMS: NASA The Lies

From: Leanne Martin <leanne_martin@hotmail.com>
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 22:26:07 PST
Fwd Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 10:57:21 -0500
Subject: Re: RAMS: NASA The Lies


>Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 10:47:10 +0000
>From: "Robert A.M. Stephens" <sti3818@montana.com>
>To: UFO Updates Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>,
>Subject: RAMS: Re: NASA The Lies

>(Darn you Peter Gersten. Okay, here we go. But, I say right now,
>it will do no good to this man or anyone like him to re-answer
>these questions because I'll work real hard on these when I need
>sleep and his answer will be: "xxxx you stephens, you're a xxxx
>liar." It's what everyone of these people say and I've learned
>my lesson 2 months ago. Its religion to these folks and what I
>say is not what they want to hear. I think you are troubled
><grin> for putting me through this over and over just because
>you know I'll try and answer them in my awkward way since I
>think at times someone is actually serious about it.)

>(Note to 'JM': In my mail to you in answer to you tonight, I
>posted it would do no good to answer any of these because you'll
>just call me a liar after I work on them for you. I still very
>much believe this. Peter Gersten thinks there is some good
>points in this mail of yours so I will counter my assessment and
>answer these to the best of my ability. At least consider them
>before you respond with a one liner that I'm lying to you. I
>think Peter is a part time dentist at times and uses no Novocain
>nor does he have the vaguest compassion for a fellow lifeform
>such as me.)

>'JM' wrote:

>Okay, 'JM', whoever you are, at the request of Peter Gersten,
>here goes.

>>To Mr. Robert A. Stephens:

>Good start. No calling me a 'xxxxsucker'. Thank you.


G'day Mr.RAMS, Mr.Gripple & List,

I forgot to mention that in Puerto Rico maybe it would stand for
a goatsucker.

'Nuff of the trivia, back to your squabbles . . .

Regards,
Leanne  ];-)






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 27

                                NASA Website

From: Judith Dale <judithdale@earthlink.net>
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 23:50:37 -0800
Fwd Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 11:27:46 -0500
Subject: NASA Website


Greetings Everyone,

As the result of the current debate regarding NASA, and the
veracity of comments made by some people, I took myself on a
cruise to NASA's web site. Once there, I perused the surface PR
pages, then dove down into the depths of the document archives.
What a treat. :-) I encourage any one of you to do the same.

I found the most interesting information on subjects as mundane
as providing a water supply to the lab animals on the Shuttle
missions, to information about research being done on FTL space
travel. Just go to the search page and begin your quest. NASA
has made so much information available to us, very cool.

I don't begin to presume that everything NASA is doing is
currently available for public scrutiny. In regard to the
Shuttle program, I suppose this is due to the fact that much of
what the Shuttle crews do is related to research payloads that
are privately contracted. It would be up to those particular
companies to make information, regarding their projects,
available to the public eye. Given that we live in a system of
highly competitive free enterprise, I'm sure that there are some
projects that are guarded until after the research information
is gleaned and aggregated.

Frankly, I've grown weary of relying on the oft misquoted
statements the media presents us with, and the
misinterpretations I find on various web sites. So, I've had my
fingers do the tapping, my mouse do the clicking, my eyes do the
reading, and my own mind do the assessment of the data
presented. Then I draw my own conclusions. I say enough
bickering already. Go, do the research. You may very well be
amazed.

Let us be a united humanity in the face of the visitors/intruders.
Judith

NASA's web site URL:
http://www.nasa.gov/





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 27

                         Open Letter To Iur Readers

From: Tim Matthews <matthews@zetnet.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 21:32:25 -0000
Fwd Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 11:35:35 -0500
Subject: Open Letter To Iur Readers


Dear All,

This is an important response to an article that recently
appeared in the IUR journal entitled "Alfred Loedding; New
Insight On The Man Behind Project Sign" (IUR Winter 1998 Volume
23, Number 4, pp.3 - 28).

I read with interest the recent article featured in this
excellent and improving journal. The article in question,
written by Wendy Connors and Michael David Hall, is of a
particularly high standard but totally fails to mention certain
points of importance.

(The section of the article below is taken from the forthcoming
"UFO NEWS" Number #3, a joint Lancashire UFO Society, British
UFO Studies Centre effort available for just =A32.50 (or magazine
exchange) from:

The Secretary, P.O. Box 15, Southport PR8 1GR.)

The latest and important news (Jan. 1999) is that the US Navy
has refused to declassify documentation relating to its'
advanced pancake saucer programme citing "National Security" as
an excuse. The USAF is releasing hundreds of pages of documents
on its' own Project Y and WS606A/B and we'll have to evaluate
these first.

The bottom line; flying discs were terrestrial in origin.
Nevertheless, the UFO community, and we, need to decide exactly
how many of the early "disc" sightings can be taken
seriously......

Read the information below and if you require a full copy of my
article with references then I can it email it to you in MS Word
7.0 upon request....... ............................

"Forces of Darkness.

As we have seen through declassified Counter Intelligence Corps
documents from 1947 and through the recently-released previously
TOP SECRET Air Intelligence Report (AIR 100-203-79) the story
was perhaps more complex than admitted to in the Air
Intelligence Digest; the US Navy clearly had developed a
jet-powered flying disc based upon the work of Charles Horton
Zimmerman.

A 'Project Sign' document dated 23rd June 1948 written by
Colonel RD Wentworth, Acting Chief of USAF Intelligence, noted
the existence of an "X-plane" built by Chance-Vought.

It also referred to experiments underway within the Navy
Engineering Division into low aspect ratio aircraft and what was
described as 'boundary layer control'. The obvious point to make
is that the sleek, metallic design of most reported discs is
good evidence of low aspect ratio design.

Chance-Vought, initially based in Bridgeport, Connecticut,
developed a circular wing aircraft of low aspect ratio during
the Second World War for the US Navy. This was the V-173 and
became better known as the XF5U-1 'flying flapjack'. A more
advanced version, known as the 'pancake' was built but,
according to official sources, never flew and only underwent
taxiing tests.

The official story has recently been thrown into serious doubt
through the release of these previously classified documents and
through interviews conducted with personnel involved in the
development of jet-powered 'pancakes' and through information
received by former combat veteran and USAF journalist Jack
Pickett.

In early 1998 I spoke with Thomas C. Smith, who graduated in
Engineering from Penn State University during the Second World
War and later worked upon the more advanced XF5U-1 for
Chance-Vought at the Bridgeport facility in 1945/46. Working
with a Top Secret clearance he recalls seeing test flights of
the circular aircraft where STOL characteristics were clearly
demonstrated. In addition he worked upon the skins for the
jet-powered version.

(At that time, the immediate postwar years, aircraft were
changing from propellers to jet engines; in terms of more
advanced designs and example of this might be said to be the
XB-35 Northrop flying wing. It used props but these were soon
replaced by jets and the aircraft was re-designated the YB-49.)

Smith, a lucid and successful man who became President of the
Woodstream Corporation before his retirement, was absolutely
clear that the discplane flew on numerous occasions and he noted
that locals who saw the aircraft were impressed by its' ability
to fly at very low speeds. This gave the impression of a
'hovering disc' to many witnesses.

The STOL (short take-off and landing) requirement is important
and there may be little difference between STOL and proposed
VTOL (vertical take-off and landing) aircraft in practice.

We are now sure that the jet-powered version existed. The
evidence, from official sources is clear on this point:

"Domestic flying wing type aircraft observed in various aspects
of flight might be responsible for some of the reported flying
objects, particularly those described as disks and rough cigar
shapes. (See Appendices "C" and "D".) Among those which have
been operational in recent years are the XF5U-1 ("Flying
Flapjack") developed by Chance-Vought, the Northrop B-35, and
the turbo-jet powered Northrop YB-49."

In addition to this:

"The above tends to indicate that some type object has been seen
and the possibility exists that the object or objects seen are
conventional domestic devices, such as weather balloons, test
rockets, or jet-equipped aircraft with pancake or flying wing
configurations."

Information presented in "The Aeroplane" magazine - dated March
19th 1948 - makes a number of remarkable statements. The
article, one of a three part series entitled "The Biology of the
Flying Saucer", deals with the subject from an entirely
technical point of view and its' author, A.S Weyl, is clearly an
expert in his field. He states, on page 338;

"The Real Flying Saucer?

Since this experimental type was produced [XF5U-1, TM], further
progress has been made in the development. It seems that
axial-flow gas turbines have been installed, and it is quite
possible that a combined propulsion with thermal jet and
airscrew rotor is already under test. With this, for slow flight
(take-off, climb and landing), the rotors are driven by the gas
turbines, while at high speed the rotors are declutched and
feathered and pure jet propulsion is used. This would,
incidentally, explain the extraordinary ability of the reported
'Flying Saucers' to be able to fly very high and fast, and also
to hover, ascend and descend with practically no forward speed."

Despite raising doubts about 'squadrons' of these aircraft in
operation (!), he makes a further important point;

"For operation with gas turbines a speed range from zero (i.e.
hovering flight) to more than 500mph has been claimed for the
Chance-Vought-Zimmerman helicopter aeroplane. Technically, there
is little reason to doubt that such an amazing speed range can
be attained with the combination power plant mentioned."

A clear picture is therefore emerging even if this type of
evidence is leading to a hysterical response from elements of
the UFO community - given over as it is to tales about aliens
and abductions.

The discs came from planet earth!

The development of the flying pancake continued well into the
1960s and Jack Pickett was able to confirm to Bill Rose and
David Windle that the four discs that he saw at MacDill Air
Force Base in 1967 had the markings "X" (experimental) and "UL".
The UL indicates construction by a joint team of Bell and Vought
before 1962. Pickett, having seen the discs at MacDill by
accident was taken aside by USAF Intelligence personnel and
debriefed by a senior officer. He was further tasked to reveal
the true nature and identity of the discs in his own USAF
publication (Pickett worked on USAF periodicals after retirement
from active service). The story was killed at the last minute
after an advanced disc crashed at Avon Park Air Force Base in
Florida that year. The desire to 'come clean' after 30 years was
not popular at the highest levels and it is clear that the order
to continue the cover-up came from the Pentagon.

We are now convinced that the early Pancakes had something
approaching a heel-shaped planform and it is interesting to note
how early saucer reports relate to such an aircraft. In
addition, the McMinnville, Oregon, photographic case of 1950 -
said by even some skeptics to be impossible to dismiss - seems
to indicate the activity of a jet-powered aircraft similar to
the 'Pancake'. The protuberance at the back would appear to be a
tailfin.

Given the clear involvement of the US Navy the UFO reports
resulting from the 'Operation Mainbrace' joint military exercise
of September 1952 can also now be explained. We might expect to
see advanced, classified and experimental aircraft during such a
major exercise and not only could an X-plane be tested. The
response of fairly reliable military witnesses would also have
been of interest, especially in light of the CIA's desire to use
flying saucers for 'psychological warfare' - evidence for which
emerged that year (see appendix).

CIA documents made available via the Freedom of Information Act
in 1978 and subsequently make it quite clear that there was
something real behind reports from the USSR regarding Soviet
aims and intentions in the field of advanced aircraft. Beyond
the speculation and paranoia of US military reports it seems
that German scientists captured by the Soviet Union and materiel
recovered by 'Operation Osvakim' led to the development of
various advanced technology projects. Several CIA documents
relating to Soviet 'unconventional aircraft' are reprinted in
the Appendices.

Given the levels of concern about developments within the
Eastern bloc (a memorandum to the Director of the CIA dated 4th
October 1955 notes a detailed report of a discplane in
Czechoslovakia) then the Air Intelligence Digest report takes on
a greater significance.

AID relates to 'Project Y' - a USAF requirement for a VTOL
discplane utilizing no runway and able to operate from
'dispersed' (and hidden) bases. The design work was undertaken
by the AVRO Special Projects Group at the company factory at
Malton, Ontario, a state-of-the-art facility. The SPG was headed
up by John C Frost, an eccentric Englishman noted for this
remarkable aircraft designs. Having worked for De Havilland
after the war Frost was said to be a visionary. He did, however,
get his ideas for flying disc aircraft from "a group of Germans"
after their transportation to the USA under the terms of
'Operation Paperclip', the more successful counterpart to
'Ovaskim'.

Frosts' counterparts were Jim Chamberlain and Dr. Richard Miethe
- a German aviation expert and former colleague of rocket
pioneer Werner von Braun from Kummersdorf days. Miethe has
become a legendary and near mythical figure within Ufological
circles - partly because so little is known about him. Recent
years - our investigations and the technical research of
aviation and photographic expert Bill Rose - have allowed us to
get a better idea of Miethe's work.

Despite admissions by none other than Dr. Alexander Flax (former
secretary to the US Air Force) on American TV that Miethe had
worked for the USAF in the postwar period skeptics still claim
that German circular wing technologies, demonstrated at their
most basic by the Messerschmidt AS6, are  a 'Nazi UFO myth'.
Nevertheless, our investigations have uncovered the following
information made public by reporters working on an article for
"France Soir";

On 7th June 1952 the  'Dusseldorfer Nachrichten' carried an
article entitled "Flying Saucers - German V-7". The Dusseldorfer
borrowed it directly from the French paper. Part of the article
quoted a German engineer, Dr Richard Miethe; "I dare to state
that flying saucers which appear in the sky were constructed in
Germany according to my own specifications..."

So two separate strands of highly classified Research and
Development appear to have been underway within the US during
the 1950s. The Air Intelligence Digest appears to have been
examining the lesser known and more radical discplane=85.

This introduction and reprint is the second in a series of
reports into flying disc technologies. The big 'UFO' lie is that
'we' did not have the capability to build such vehicles. Perhaps
this taste of the truth will
encourage you to come to different conclusions.

Finally, consider this; The 'Project Silver Bug' technical
report released to elements of the Defence technical and
intelligence community in February 1955 can be seen as a natural
follow on from the AID report reprinted below.


The role of ATIC - Air Technical Intelligence Centre at
Wright-Patterson AFB, focal point for so many 'UFO' myths - was
pivotal. From the earliest days of official USAF interest in
collecting and analysing flying saucer and 'UFO' reports there
were constant denials of knowledge from ATIC regarding either
the nature or origin of the objects reported. It was ATIC who
were involved in 'Silver Bug' - the project which we now believe
led to the development of a classified operational discplane
tested at Papoose Lake, Nevada from 1955-6 onwards with the
possible designation D-5A. This fact has led many us to conclude
that the ATIC official studies ending with 'Blue Book' were
little more than;

1)      a front for the development and operation of a small number
of secret discplanes tasked to assist in the defence of both the
US Distant Early Warning (DEW) systems and the Northern NATO
borders from the late 1940s. 2)         A US anti-Soviet
counter-intelligence operation.

The reliable testimony of Jack Pickett, and others who choose to
remain in the shadows, indicates at least a thirty year line of
development relating to US discplanes. So far we have scratched
only the surface of this cover-up=85=85

Tim Matthews - January 27th 1999"

Tim Matthews - author of "UFO Revelation - The Secret Technology
Exposed?", out on February 18th!!






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 27

                            Re: Roger's Rhyme #1

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 04:58:28 -0600
Fwd Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 11:39:05 -0500
Subject: Re: Roger's Rhyme #1

>Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 22:05:58 -0500
>From: Scott Caput <scaput@shadow.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: Roger's Rhyme #1

>>Roger Evans
>>From: moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com
>>Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 23:52:13 +0000
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>Subject: Roger's Rhyme #1

>>Hello all,

<snipage of that which just screams for mandatory sterilization. <<=D6>>

>>(How'd I do, Alfred?)

>Bravo! Roger.

>What do you think Alfred?


I would recommend Roger's poetry to anyone. <g>.

Lehmberg@snowhill.com
--
Explore the Alien View!
Ponder the Wit & Wisdom of Ching Chow!

http://www.fortunecity.com/roswell/arecibo/46/

<Updated 18 January>

John Ford Restoration Fund -- Send your checks and
money orders to _me_, Alfred Lehmberg
(cut out the lawyers, they got their's) at:
304 Melbourne Drive, Enterprise AL, 36330. Strict records kept.

"Only thin, _very light_ envelopes with a return address will be
accepted <g>." ~~~ $225.00 pledged -- $125.00 collected ~~~

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see from
afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, while burning at the
fundamentalist's stake.






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 27

                            Re: Roger's Rhyme #1

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 04:58:28 -0600
Fwd Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 11:48:55 -0500
Subject: Re: Roger's Rhyme #1

>Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 22:05:58 -0500
>From: Scott Caput <scaput@shadow.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: Roger's Rhyme #1

>>Roger Evans
>>From: moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com
>>Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 23:52:13 +0000
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>Subject: Roger's Rhyme #1

>>Hello all,

<snipage of that which just screams for mandatory sterilization. <<=D6>>

>>(How'd I do, Alfred?)

>Bravo! Roger.

>What do you think Alfred?


I would recommend Roger's poetry to anyone. <g>.

Lehmberg@snowhill.com
--
Explore the Alien View!
Ponder the Wit & Wisdom of Ching Chow!

http://www.fortunecity.com/roswell/arecibo/46/

<Updated 18 January>

John Ford Restoration Fund -- Send your checks and
money orders to _me_, Alfred Lehmberg
(cut out the lawyers, they got their's) at:
304 Melbourne Drive, Enterprise AL, 36330. Strict records kept.

"Only thin, _very light_ envelopes with a return address will be
accepted <g>." ~~~ $225.00 pledged -- $125.00 collected ~~~

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see from
afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, while burning at the
fundamentalist's stake.






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 27

                         Re: Santilli's Film Scraps

From: Bob Shell <bob@bobshell.com>
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 07:45:49 +0000
Fwd Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 12:00:49 -0500
Subject: Re: Santilli's Film Scraps


>Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 09:49:30 -0500
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Santilli's Film Scraps

>>Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 13:09:43 +0000
>>Subject: Re: Santilli's Film Scraps
>>From: Bob Shell <bob@bobshell.com>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>

><snip>

>>Actually, those film scraps came from Philip Mantle, via Reg,
>>and are from the same strip as the samples I have. They are
>>copy film, not camera original, and therefore meaningless.

>>All they can tell is what we already know, the copy film is pre-
>>1955 in origin.

>Bob-

>As I recall, the producer of the Channel 4 production in Great
>Britain in 1995 was sent more "samples" of the alleged film than
>anyone else. I have written to him, but got no response, and
>have no idea what kind of testing (if any) that he might have
>pursued. Do you know how much film he had been sent, and
>whether or not he has pursued that angle at all.

Yes. I'm drawing a blank on his name at the moment. Anyway, he
has a large film can full of film scraps. He showed them to me
in Paris when we were both there to appear on the French TV
program about the film. I only had a brief look at it, but it
appeared to be more of the same. Just a guess, but I think if
all his scraps were spliced together he might have a couple of
feet of film. Ahh, yes, it comes to me --- John Purdy. He never
has returned my calls, so I have not been able to discuss
anything with him.

>You also commented in another post that Hesemman gave Ray the
>undeveloped film that he'd been given in Roswell, and that Ray
>allegedly had it developed. While it would be possible to run
>the film through the developing process, taking care to mix the
>chemicals properly for the type of film involved, what would
>have prevent cosmic radiation from fogging the film over the
>years. If that film was stored away in someone's home, it
>wouldn't have been protected from such radiation, and it would
>(according to some of your earlier statements) become so fogged
>that it would be useless.


Two differences primarily. This was not Super XX but a much
slower film and therefore would be less subject to fogging.
Also since it was in a metal cartridge I would assume that the
metal would block some background radiation. The film did show
significant fogging, but the edge markings were clear and images
would have shown if there were any. The portion of the film Ray
returned to Mike was completely blank.

Bob





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 27

                           Re: UFO Communication?

From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net>
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 04:46:59 -0800
Fwd Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 12:13:46 -0500
Subject: Re: UFO Communication?


>From: Real Arsenault <aviano291@hotmail.com>
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Re: UFO Communication?
>Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 15:06:51 PST


>Larry,

>Magnetic light deflectors has been used for the past 20+ years
>by the scientific communities; please see the URL below for
>details (GSI research center)

I got nowhere with the site address below, it led in all sorts
of confusing directions, and I found nothing pertinent.

>http://www.milliyet.com.tr/e/1998/12/27/engtool.html

Is there some path I need to take to get to the pertinent part?
This site got me nowhere.

I must ask the same question again.    Are you saying that light
itself is deflected by a magnetic field, rather than some source
device, or reflector, which could easily be magnetized?

-  LH






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 27

                Re: Santilli Knew 'Tent Footage' Was a Fraud?

From: Bob Shell <bob@bobshell.com>
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 08:03:46 +0000
Fwd Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 20:17:28 -0500
Subject: Re: Santilli Knew 'Tent Footage' Was a Fraud?


>From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
>Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 14:02:23 +0000
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Santilli Knew 'Tent Footage' Was a Fraud?

>Hi Bob,

>My only exposure to 16mm has been in the professional arena. I'm
>curious who made these cameras and if they were spring wound or
>electric driven. The reason I ask is they sound like great crash
>cams! Based on the description you gave, I was simply trying to
>help get a clearer picture of the format in question, since you
>mentioned the unusual pitch of the film's sprocket holes. Sorry
>I'm not as familiar with the amateur formats as you are. I
>certainly wasn't doubting your word, just trying to get more
>info...


The cartridge load 16 mm cameras were originated by Kodak as a
way to lock the user in to Kodak film, since that was the only
film available in the cartridges.  Kodak made a number of
different models of these cameras, and Bell & Howell also made
some.  Other camera companies may also have made cameras to
accept these cartridges.  They were also easier for amateurs to
use since there was no film threading involved.  The military
used them as well, and I have seen some cartridge load cameras
with military markings at photo flea markets now and then.

I did not say anything about unusual pitch of sprocket holes.
The spacing of sprocket holes changed at some point in the 50s
(I have the exact data somewhere) when Kodak went to a new
system to make the holes.  It had changed a few times earlier as
well.  By using a special guage Kodak can determine the rough
age of film from this spacing.

Bob







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 27

                Re: Santilli Knew 'Tent Footage' Was a Fraud?

From: Bob Shell <bob@bobshell.com>
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 08:05:06 +0000
Fwd Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 20:25:29 -0500
Subject: Re: Santilli Knew 'Tent Footage' Was a Fraud?

>From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
>Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 14:02:23 +0000
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Santilli Knew 'Tent Footage' Was a Fraud?

>I'm curious who made these cameras and if they were spring
>wound or electric driven.

Sorry, missed that. The only ones I've seen are spring driven.

Bob







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 27

                Re: Santilli Knew 'Tent Footage' Was a Fraud?

From: Joachim Koch <AchimKoch@compuserve.com>
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 11:18:29 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 20:39:26 -0500
Subject: Re: Santilli Knew 'Tent Footage' Was a Fraud?


>Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 11:41:52 +0000
>Subject: Re: Santilli Knew 'Tent Footage' Was a Fraud?
>From: Bob Shell <bob@bobshell.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>

>There was a Kodak cartridge of old film which Mike Hesemann
>bought from a lady in Roswell which was supposed to contain
>images of the crash site.  It was unprocessed film.

>Unfortunately, Mike gave it to Ray for processing, and later
>got back a short portion of the film.  The part which had
>actually gone through the camera was missing from what Ray
>returned to Mike, and has never been accounted for.<

Hi Bob,

please try to answer my questions regarding the above quote.

1.) Did you attend this deal of M. Hesemann with the Lady? If
not, who told you about this? Do you know the Lady? Who is she?

2.) "...Unfortunately, Mike gave it to Ray for processing,..."
Could you please give me a kind of timetable for this? When did
the "unfortunate giving of the material" happen?

3.) What did M. Hesemann do  to get back the missing parts of
"his" film scraps? Did he start a lawsuit against Santilli?

Bob, I would appreciate very much if you would answer this.

Because: M. Hesemann still distributes(promotes)a video of the
"Alien Autopsy" here in Germany claiming that the video shows
the pictures as they came down from the reels of the original
film without any cut, reel by reel. Of course, without the
tent footage.

We have definite proof by the expertise of a reliable film
producer from Munich, Bavaria, that this claim is not true.
His expertise shows clearly, that the video consists of scraps
of videos because the fading in and out, shown several times,
is hoaxed while on the other hand some abrupt changes of the
scene as they happen from time to time could never have done
in this way by a film camera.

If this video,which M.Hesemann offers to the public,
is only a copy of Santilli's video then this would imply that
the whole thing was done on video in first place - and everyone
who's telling stories about "original film reels/canisters)"
must be asked: Have you seen them?

The story of a canister of unprocessed film (so I don't know
what it is - maybe nothing) bought from "a Lady", handed over to
a Mr. Santilli (why to Santilli in England and why not to Mr.
Illobrand v. Ludwiger to MUFON-CES or to G.E.P. here in
Germany?) without doing anything to secure the whole thing
(imagine: it is supposed to be material about the crash site
from Roswell!)and getting back not the same what once was
delivered but continue to promote video material from the same
man - sorry - this stinks to heaven (as we say here in Germany)!

By the way, I forgot to ask you: do you know anyone who ever has
seen the whole (claimed) amount of reels?

Cheers

Achim Koch
International Roswell Initative, Germany






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 27

              Re: 1999 UFO Alien Abduction Conference Announced

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 99 11:29:24 PST
Fwd Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 20:42:18 -0500
Subject: Re: 1999 UFO Alien Abduction Conference Announced


>From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
>Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 22:23:11 EST
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Re: 1999 UFO Alien Abduction Conference Announced

>>From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@get2net.dk>
>>Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 02:02:26 +0100 (MET)
>>Subject: 1999 UFO Alien Abduction Conference Announced
>>To: updates@globalserve.net

>>Source: "alt.ufo.reports".

>>Stig

>>From: "Gerard Vanderleun"
>>gerard.vanderleun@generalmedia.com>
>>Newsgroups: alt.ufo.reports
>>Subject: 1999 UFO ALIEN ABDUCTION CONFERENCE
>>Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 11:49:06 -0500
>>ef: news.get2net.dk alt.ufo.reports:26306

>>The Intruders Foundation Presents
>
>>THE 1999 UFO ABDUCTION CONFERENCE
>>-  WHAT WE KNOW AND HOW WE KNOW IT -

>>On Saturday, April 10, 1999, New York City will be the site of a
>>day-long national conference on the UFO abduction phenomenon.
>>Four of America's most respected UFO researchers - Budd Hopkins,
>>Stanton Friedman, David Jacobs and Jerome Clark - will welcome
>>the public to a cutting-edge presentation of current evidence
>>for the reality and possible future of alien abductions.

>Not all the evidence. Only that which they want you to hear. You
>will notice that there are no speakers or information offered
>about alternatives to these specific people's opinions. How
>cutting edge can it be without alternative explanations being
>offered.

>>The conference is planned as both a crash course in the ongoing
>>UFO abduction phenomenon - what we know and how we know it - and
>>an illustrated presentation of the latest research findings.

>It will only be a crash course in belief structure and it will
>not contain the latest findings. Only those findings which they
>want you to hear. In an upcoming book by Kevin Randle (me), Russ
>Estes, and Dr. William P. Cone, we take a long and hard look at
>the abduction phenomenon as it exists today. We can find some
>alternative explanations and we offered to share these at the
>conference, but the organizers were uninterested in that. They
>are only interested in promoting alien abduction as if it is a
>proven fact and refuse to answer hard questions about it.

Kevin,

I am afraid that none of the above makes much sense to me. First
of all, the organizers of any conference on any subject have the
right to invite exactly whom they want to invite, and to have
represented any point of view they endorse, feel comfortable
with, or consider important.  If you're not happy with the views
expressed at the Intruders conference, hold your own damn
conference.

Second of all, unless you are claiming telepathic powers, I
don't think you know what I'm going to say, and I resent the
implication that I am involved in some sort of misleading
propaganda effort.

And third of all, I look forward to reading your book.  I just
hope that it's better than other books which have sought
reductionist explanations for this peculiar phenomenon. What we
all need, really, is a book by Eddie Bullard -- than whom no one
knows more about the abduction maze or has so balanced a view --
on the subject.

Jerry Clark








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 27

                Re: Santilli Knew 'Tent Footage' Was a Fraud?

From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 12:17:17 +0000
Fwd Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 20:44:47 -0500
Subject: Re: Santilli Knew 'Tent Footage' Was a Fraud?


>From: James Easton <pulsar@compuserve.com>
>Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 23:08:01 -0500
>Fwd Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 10:25:09 -0500
>Subject: Re: Santilli Knew 'Tent Footage' Was a Fraud?

>>From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
>>Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 08:20:40 +0000
>>Subject: Re: Santilli Knew 'Tent Footage' Was a Fraud?

Hi James,

Great info!

However, previously I had written:

>>If the info about Santilli processing the film is true, then it
>>should be fairly easy to find the lab that did the work.

Your response was:

>We already know who it's claimed carried out the work. As Bob
>Shell will no doubt recall, he confirmed having been informed,
>"Film to video transfer was done in London by Rank".

My statement above wasn't related to the transfer of the film to
video. It was related to the processing of the undeveloped film.
If Santilli had 15 undeveloped cans of this stuff (as previously
suggested), then it would have needed special handling due to
its unique processing requirements; i.e. different chemicals,
tests, lower temperatures, etc. This should be easy to find
since the number of labs that process B&W are fewer, anyway.
This would have been a big deal to any one of them.

Moving on, you offered:

>Following a discrete enquiry, Rank clarified that any such
>specialist work would be carried out by Rank Video Services in
>London and suggested speaking to Roy Liddiard, the senior
>manager there.

>Familiar with the 'alien autopsy' film, Roy categorically and
>formally refuted any suggestion his laboratory had been involved
>and noted that even if another specialist laboratory had
>processed the 'alien autopsy' film, he would have expected to
>have heard something 'on the
>grapevine'.

Are Rank Laboratories the only place in London that a Rank
transfer could be achieved? I ask this for a very specific
reason:

The statement "The film was transfered in London by Rank"
doesn't necessarily mean that the actual "Rank Laboratory" had
to be the one that did it. Virtually all modern transfer
facilities, either in England or in the States, uses a Rank
Cintel transfer device or the equivalant. It is common in the
industry to say that "film was transferred by Rank", even in a
city where Rank Laboratories do not exist and even in a facility
where a Philips equivalant was being used instead of an actual
Rank Cintel! "Transfer by Rank" generally refers to the process
and not the Lab, itself.

Of course, if Santilli says that the "Rank Laboratories" did the
transfer, then that is totally different as he is designating an
actual place of business and not just a process.

Continuing, you offered this info from Bob Shell:

>"When I asked Ray who had done the copying of the original film
>to a 16 mm dupe, he said that he wasn't sure.

Again, some clarification is in order, here. Bob is clearly
talking about who made the 16mm dupe of the original film and
not who transferred the original film to video. While I'm
certain that any lab could do both, they are two totally
different processes.

More importantly, this info is in apparent conflict with Bob's
earlier statement that the "testing" of the film was useless
since it was from copy film and not camera original, even though
the "vintage' was identified as either 1947 or 1967. If Bob
already knew that the 16mm dupe was done by Santilli via Rank,
or any other lab, then the issue of having it tested for
"vintage" makes no sense at all. Furthermore, how could the
"vintage' be even as old as 1967 if the dupe had just been made?
Certinly the lab wasn't using 30 year old dupe stock!

Steven had written:

>>I believe that Santilli also said the "film" was very fragile and
>>had to be transfered to video a frame at a time, which may be the
>>"processing" that he has referred to in some statements.

However, Santilli claimed:

>"After hearing the story I was taken to the cameraman's house
>and viewed the footage. The cameraman had one reel of film that
>he was able to show on an old projector. He moved the projector
>over to a wall and projected the image on the wall itself".

Bob Shell had previously offered:

>"The film Ray/Volker have is, according to them, extremely
>brittle. If the pieces I have indeed come from this film, it is
>far too brittle to be projected.  That is why I assume a later
>copy is what was projected".

There seems to be another conflict of info here. In an October
post on the subject, I asked Bob Shell if he had inspected the
framelines of the camera original. Bob replied:

>No, he does not have the camera, and it would not matter much
>if he did since Santilli has never released any camera original
>film. The short pieces I have are all from copy prints.

Here Bob indicates he has no camera original; only copy print
material. But in the above, Bob offers:

>If the pieces I have indeed come from this (the original) film, it
>is far too brittle to be projected.

Perhaps Bob can explain. Do you have camera original or not?

For the record, any film that can be printed can be transfered
on a Rank Cintel. Both processes use 'roller transport' for
moving the film. In fact, the Rank is more gentle than a film
printer since the Rank needs no "teeth" to align the film. There
would be no need to transfer "one frame at a time" under any
circumstance.

Thanks for the info, James. Considering the research you've
done, perhaps you could put together a simplified time line
contrasting what Santilli says happened against what you think
really happened.

Take care,

Roger Evans





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 27

                          Chat with Stephen Bassett

From: Yvonne Hedenland <vonni_h@kirkham.ewind.com>
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 11:54:00 -0600
Fwd Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 20:49:03 -0500
Subject: Chat with Stephen Bassett


The Politics of UFOS - Just where do we stand?

Lobbyist Stephen Bassett is founder of Paradigm Research Group,
which provides professional support for Ufological organizations
such as Stargate, Enterprise, Mission, and CSETI.

Join Mr. Bassett and the Politics of UFOs staff on Sunday,
January 31, at 6 PM Pacific Time for updates on Joseph Firmage;
the effect of the end of the impeachment process and the need
for leadership and funding to represent the people's interest in
this matter, insightful comments on main stream media
developments, programs, and  interviews which are impacting the
politics of disclosure; and more! This chat is available through
http://communities.msn.com/ufo .

The Briefing Room chat can be accessed by any IRC client. The
chat server name is publicchat.msn.com and the room or channel
name is #briefing.








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 27

                           Re: Greenwood on MJ-12

From: Jan Aldrich <jan@cyberzone.net>
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 13:00:24 -0800
Fwd Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 21:04:02 -0500
Subject: Re: Greenwood on MJ-12


>From: Ryan S. Wood <rswood@igc.apc.org>
>Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 19:35:48 -0800
>Fwd Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 10:35:58 -0500
>Subject: Re: Greenwood on MJ-12

[Non-Subscriber Post]

>Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 21:43:56 -0800
>From: Jan Aldrich <jan@CYBERZONE.NET>
>Subject: Greenwood on MJ-12
>To: PROJECT-1947@LISTSERV.AOL.COM

Greetings,

I must say this is quite a reaction to the announcement the next
UFO Historical Revue. Seems to me that Barry's audience compared
to Art Bell's is infinitesimal. The flea stings the elephant!

>Dear Mr. Aldrich:

>In the interest of clarity let me respond to your
>comments in CAPS and hopefully ease your mind and others
>about the authenticity efforts by Wood & Wood around the MJ-12
>documents. Our focus is on quality, thoroughness and validation.

>Jan Aldrich writes:

>>>The MJ-12 Saga Continues, Greenwood Addresses New MJ-12
>>>Documents In The Next UHR

>>>Once again, extraordinary claims are being made involving
>>>a number of documents shoved into Tim Cooper's mail box.

>REALLY, WHAT CLAIMS ARE THOSE ABOVE AND BEYOND THE DOCUMENTS
>THEMSELVES?

That they are authentic. Of course, if they are authentic all
the material, ie events in the documents are true. The
documents represent extraordinary events.

>>>These second generation MJ-12 document highly promoted by
>>>Dr. Robert Wood and his son attract new people to the MJ-12
>>>morass. The Woods claim that by looking at the content of the
>>>documents they can determine the authenticity of the material.
>>>Provenance is irrelevant to these proponents.

>This is statement is inaccurate. we are looking at
>all aspects of authenticity, typography, content, style
>chirography, provenance

Glad to hear it, but again that establishes nothing conclusive
on authenticity. Fakery can be established, however.

>and difficulty in fakery.

This is silly. After six weeks training most military clerks can
produce military documents. The idea that it is difficult to
mimic someone's style or load documents with obscure facts is
ludicrous. One only has to look at the Howard Hughes and Hitler
forgeries, which were indeed first certified by experts to see
that. As far as producing type fonts and other items I guess the
implication is that there were no forgeries until computers came
along.


>in no way are we focusing on only a few elements. Now
>you may believe that we are because that is all the
>information you have seen or understood.

Of course, the content of the documents involves all these thing
mentioned about. Unless you find flaws, this tells you little
about the authenticity of the documents.


>Let me say that we have hundreds of pages of further
>detailed analysis that we have not yet published.

>On the provence front, Tim Cooper just agreed to take
>a lie detector test on The Mike Jarmus Show after BOb
>Durant Asked him to.

I think no one disputes that Tim Cooper found the documents in
his mail box or got information for the shadowy Cantwheel. This
establishes nothing about the provenance of the documents.


>>All doubt has been
>>answered about the MJ-12 documents, or so we are to believe.

>Were do you get that impression? There are still many man
>years of additional work to be done. do you want some
>assignments?

Now, if you re-read what you wrote below it seems to me
that is exactly what you are saying: that in your two
year study you have checked all possible serious objections
and you have foreseen all the problems. So which is it?
Man years of further analysis or everything already so
neatly established that nearly all serious objections have
been foreseen and answered.

>How about find every soldier in the 9393 TSU (400+) in 1947
>and interview them or there children. There are other
>less daunting tasks as well.

It would seem that this answer the above question, but why
go to that trouble based on questionable documents.?

>>>So while most of ufology does not yet accept the extravagant
>>>claims for the new MJ-12 documents, there are many new people
>>>who find these documents compelling.
>
>Excuse me, Aldrich...Most of ufology? Who are you to
>speak for ufology? Did you do a survey and have
>a majority opinion?

My statement was based on the discussions on UFO UpDates and
other places. I was not implying that it was based on a survey
of everyone who considers himself a ufologist.


>The documents are actively
>>>promoted on Art Bell and on other radio shows, and on the
>>>Internet.

>This is a good thing. It allows everyone to read and
>understand for themselves.

>>>Barry Greenwood will devote the next UFO Historical Revue to
>>>problems and flaws in the new MJ-12 documents. It will probably
>>>be in the mail next week.
>
>We look forward to any serious objections, i doubt very
>much that any objection that may be raised we have not
>already heard of before. Very likely we will have already
>performed a detailed analysis that addresses serious
>objections.
>
>Remember that we have been studying and researching
>these documents for nearly two years.
>
>It is sad in my mind that Greenwood has not contacted us
>to further clarification of his opinions and investigations
>So that the ufo community can continue to have the
>best possible information discussed in public forums
>such as UHR.
>>>
>>>UHR, P. O. Box 176, Stoneham, MA 02180, $15/year US, $20/year
>>>outside the US.

UHR should be out in a few days; so you will get your wish. In
the meantime here are some of my objections:

1. Provenance. These document all appeared in people's mailboxes
or came from shadowy figures. Recently, the workings of MJ-12
are expounded in fictional works, because it is okay for people
with security clearance to discuss classified information as
long as it is in the form of fiction. This last is poppycock!

If you can't establish provenance, nearly all other work is a
waste of time and effort. Hoaxers and forgers can create just
about anything. These documents are at least second or third
generation copies. Most efforts to determine a cut and paste job
is wasted.

The origin of the documents cannot not be established. What's to
say rather than chronicles of real events created in some
government office, they would the work of people in trying fool
someone?

2. Security Markings. Top Secret is not Secret with the word
"Top" stuck in front of it. Silly statement, but it is necessary
to drive home the point that Top Secret material is handled
completely different than other material.

It seems that there is almost complete *ignorance* of the proper
procedures for handling Top Secret in the UFO community. There
is certain such among the MJ-12 advocates. So much so that they
debunk the use of Top Secret Control Numbers and other Top
Secret procedures. For those who wish to know the procedures
here they are:

http://www.fas.org/irp/doddir/army/ar380-5/vii.htm

This section for Army Regulation 350-5 describes generally the
procedure for handling Top Secret information. Specific
implementation instruction are elsewhere.

[Some people who have actually had clearance try to exploit the
UFO public's ignorance with tall-tales, but that's another tale
which has been told elsewhere.]

Ah, but the MJ-12ers say, this is an Army procedure, every
agency has their own. Beside that, procedures have changed over
the years. This is more exposition of the *ingnorance* I
mentioned. Each agency may implement the instructions with some
variations but their results must be the same.

Documents must have control numbers, a unique number that is
used for the continuous accountability in that office. All of
the MJ-12 documents are missing this vital item. Most are
missing other required items.

Ah, but the retort comes, these documents originated years ago.

Yes, and despite the debunking by MJ-12 advocates of the Top
Secret control procedures, the procedures have remain little
changed since the post-World War II era. This is something that
the great MJ-12 researchers seem to have missed in their
extensive research.

A document cover properly exhibiting Top Secret control
information may be found at:

http://www.iufog.org/project1947/fig/1948air.htm

The SOM 1-01 should have displayed similar markings on the
cover: a Top Secret control number and the which of copy of the
total number of copies.

Why is this? Because the fabricators of MJ-12 did not even know
the proper Top Secret control procedures. They thought that Top
Secret documents were controlled and maintained just as the
lower Secret and Confidential documents.

(For those really interested, I can provide a sample of
declassified Top Secret documents from the era. They show the
Top Secret control numbers, implementation of the procedures in
different fashions and how TS control numbers sometimes get
obliterated during the declassification/FOIA process. Send me a
self address 55-cent stamped (or international reply) and a #10
(business) envelope--don't request this by E-mail--and I will
provide you with samples.)

Instead of the "difficulty of fakery," how about "the silliness
of content," because the silliness of some of these documents
should be readily apparent:

SOM 1-01, for example.

Berliner provide the change sheet for the publication. Are
there any indications in the text of the changes being made?

There are none!

If MJ-12 is composed of the brightest and the best minds around
how come they can't figure out:

o That the recovery team has to guard against overhead
  observation

o How to establish an exclusion area (something typical
  for the Army, but probably not for a Sergeant in the Air
  Force)

o Prevention of taking souvenirs

o Actual procedures, equipment, and specially trained personnel
  needed to accomplish a recovery?

The manual does tell one how to construct a box, something could
have been referred to SOM reader in another publication.

BTW The "TO" number on the manual's cover refers to an Air Force
technical manual. If someone wanted to do research on the item
for authenticity purposes, they would find the Air Force
Technical Order index for 1954 and look up the number. My bet is
that it belongs to a packing manual! [Not doubt with multiple
changes through the years--another avenue of investigation.
Since the manual came from Kirkland, is there anyone else we
know who was associated with Kirkland? --Just a thought.]

The silliest thing in the SOM 1-01 is the cover story for the
recovery operation being a downed satellite! In 1954 there were
not satellites. The purpose of the cover story is to keep the
press and presumedly foreign intelligence agents away. If it
was announced in 1954 or even in the late 1950s after some
satellites were launched that a satellite had come down it would
cause a sensation and attract every reporter every spy around.
Such a cover story would cause both the press and spies to
redouble their efforts to find out what was going on! What a
*stupid* cover story! Multiple Jerks-12!

One could go on, but what is the point?  Manuals of this type
are supposed to establish standards of performance, detail how
procedure are done and establish equipment, personnel and
training necessary to accomplish the tasks. This manual is an
outright failure in these regards; it does, however, tell one
how to construct a shipping crate.

MJ-12 seems a red-herring dragged across the track of ufologists
which takes us far away from the study of UFOs.

Jan Aldrich






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 27

                   Re: Looking Back At 50 Years Of Ufology

From: Mark Cashman <mcashman@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 13:18:22 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 21:17:06 -0500
Subject: Re: Looking Back At 50 Years Of Ufology

>Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 18:10:01 +0000
>From: Anthony Chippendale <ufo-net@clara.net>
>To: discuss-ufo@onelist.com
>Subject: Looking Back At 50 Years Of Ufology

>As we prepare to enter the new Millenium it is time that we all
>stood back and looked at what we have accomplished during the
>last 50 or so years of UFO research - nothing. We have
>investigated sightings, abductions, mutilations and crop
>circles. We have gathered numbers and statistics and analysis'
>of UFO sightings, but we have not actually achieved anything.

Anthony -

It depends on what you mean by "achievement". In this context,
my definition of achievement has several components:

1) Collection, preservation and dissemination of historical data
by and among researchers.

2) Dissemination of said information among the general public
and the scientific community.

3) Improvements in the gathering of new case information and the
analyses applied to that information.

4) Dissemination of that information to researchers, the general
public, and the scientific community.

5) Development, dissemination and use of classification systems
for UFO reports which emphasize patterns available in historical
and modern data.

6) Development of methods for rapid peer review of new cases,
analyses, and ideas.

7) Development of publication and funding resources for serious
research - within the UFO research community.

8) Clarification of the status of classic and non-so-classic
incidents through reinvestigation and archival research,
including the
discovery / rediscovery of hoaxes.

Let's examine the results.

1) Efforts such as Project 1947's archival research and
cataloging efforts, FUFOR sponsored historical research and
publications, the work of Loren Gross, the efforts to find and
consolidate important collections of UFO publications and
papers, have all contributed to this goal.

2) Jerry Clark's new 'UFO Encyclopedia' & 'UFO Book', Peter
Hassall's 'NZ Files', Brookesmith's collections, republication
of the 'UFO Evidence', and von Ludwiger's 'Best UFO Cases:
Europe' all are recent steps to the attainment of this goal. The
publication of catalogs and reports on the web has increased
greatly, widening the audience for serious UFO data.

3) A limited degree of new focus on gathering quantitative
information from UFO sightings has begun to emerge. Ted
Phillips' renewed activity in physical trace investigation and
analysis, efforts by Vallee to estimate the physical parameters
(especially energy output) of UFOs, and the efforts of
individual investigators to gather more solid distance, size,
and speed information, have all shown promise. This area,
however, continues to lag behind others, due to the nature of
field investigation and the ability of FIs to devote sufficient
effort to single cases.

4) This area continues to lag far behind, though there are some
hopeful signs. The emergence and evolution of Internet
communities (such as this List) where experts and laypersons
mix, and where current and historical case information can be
repeatedly and thoroughly debated are a hopeful sign.

Nevertheless, emphasis on sensational and unverified aspects of
the phenomenon, such as abduction claims, implants,
films/videos/documents of anonymous or unknown provenance, and
paranormal cases, remains the primary focus of the conventional
media with regard to UFOs. This is also reflected in the pages
of many of the more popular UFO related media. To some extent,
this situation has seen a sharp worsening since the late
1960s/early 1970s, when scientists seemed to show a willingness
to look more openly at UFO data.

5) Relatively little effort has been exerted is this area. Most
classification systems have been simple and superficial, and few
are more than single level. The original Vallee classifcation
system has been brought more in line with the Hynek system has
added categories for anomalies, and has tried to regularize its
dimensions, largely (IMO) to the detriment of its
expressiveness. Such systems have been a personal area of focus
for me, and I have developed three classification systems with a
behavioral slant. This remains one of the weakest areas of
UFOlogical science.

6) Again, the Internet is wreaking change in this area. New
cases and theories are dissected and dealt with in a matter of
days, weeks, or months, where years were formerly needed. At the
same time, final dissemination of these results still lags
behind, except in mail list archives.

7) The situation in terms of publication remains slightly
improved, but there are still not enough resources available.
FUFOR has emerged as am important funder of programs, but
direction of research money remains sporadic, and the amount
remains small.

8) Researchers continue their efforts in this area, however many
databases either lack definitive status for their cases, or the
definitive status remains undisseminated, or, worse, databases
are removing cases found to be hoaxes. However, authors continue
the tradition of discussing problematic or refuted cases in
their books.

Others may define achievement in other ways. For instance, I
suspect there are many who define achievement as reduction in
conflict and increasing unanimity of opinion. Personally, I
believe that it is far to early for that to occur. We have spent
about 50 years collecting and disseminating cases of uneven
quality and data depth. This has been important, and the efforts
to catalog that data are an important first step to the
development of the more robust and expressive classification
systems which are needed to frame overarching hypotheses. Free
form efforts at theorization are both essential and yet have the
potential to do harm within and without ufology. Little except
the continued development of peer review mechanisms can be used
to improve the quality and applicability of new hypotheses.

>We ufologists spend most of our time arguing about cases and
>incidents. We argue on the Internet, on TV, and in the numerous
>UFO/Paranormal periodicals that are published across the globe.
>Unfortunately, we have not gained anything.

I would disagree with this, for the reasons stated above. If
anything, we need higher levels of debate, and we need more
credible researchers involved in these debates. If the nonsense
is to be ejected from this field, it will only be accomplished
by free, unfettered, and focused debate. From that, hopefully,
will emerge a foundation of stronger hypotheses which are
supportable from the existing data.

We also need to keep in mind the nature of our subject of study.
UFOs remain elusive and unwilling to perform in cue. Therefore
we must, like ornithologists, deal with the self-willed nature
of the phenomenon, and the fragmentary and distorted data which
results.

>It is time for us to step back and look at the data that we
>have, I do not mean analyse it, I mean look at it, look for
>clues and patterns that might tell us something about the
>activities of the aliens.

Good data gathering, analysis, classification, and the
formulation of testable hypotheses are the only routes that will
eventually attain this goal. Unfocused "looking" is not going to
help.

------
Mark Cashman, creator of The Temporal Doorway at
http://www.temporaldoorway.com
- Original digital art, writing, and UFO research -

UFO cases, analysis, classification systems, and more...
http://www.temporaldoorway.com/ufo.htm
------





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 27

                         Re: Santilli's Film Scraps

From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@YorkU.CA>
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 14:29:21 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time)
Fwd Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 21:31:48 -0500
Subject: Re: Santilli's Film Scraps


>Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 09:49:30 -0500
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Santilli's Film Scraps

>>Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 13:09:43 +0000
>>Subject: Re: Santilli's Film Scraps
>>From: Bob Shell <bob@bobshell.com>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>

><snip>

>>Actually, those film scraps came from Philip Mantle, via Reg,
>>and are from the same strip as the samples I have.  They are
>>copy film, not camera original, and therefore meaningless.

>>All they can tell is what we already know, the copy film is pre-
>>1955 in origin.

>Bob-

>As I recall, the producer of the Channel 4 production in Great
>Britain in 1995 was sent more "samples" of the alleged film than
>anyone else.  I have written to him, but got no response, and
>have no idea what kind of testing (if any) that he might have
>pursued.  Do you know how much film he had been sent, and
>whether or not he has pursued that angle at all.

>You also commented in another post that Hesemman gave Ray the
>undeveloped film that he'd been given in Roswell, and that Ray
>allegedly had it developed.  While it would be possible to run
>the film through the developing process, taking care to mix the
>chemicals properly for the type of film involved, what would
>have prevent cosmic radiation from fogging the film over the
>years.  If that film was stored away in someone's home, it
>wouldn't have been protected from such radiation, and it would
>(according to some of your earlier statements) become so fogged
>that it would be useless.

>Any thoughts?

>Steve

Hi Steven, Hi Bob,

The film scraps obtained by Derrel Sims and Dr. Roger Leir have
images of military cadets(?), players on a football field, etc.

These film scraps were forwarded to the Technical Research and
Development labs in Montreal of the National Film Board of
Canada for tests. Their analysis report contained 11 very
interesting facts about these film scraps. Fact 4 was that:


"All samples are cellulose triacetate film, but are _not_
 camera-originals."


The assistant director of this research lab is willing and able
to resolve the issue of the age of the actual Alien Autopsy film
for free.  We will continue to wait for Ray Santilli to decide
what to do.

Below is a comment from Dr. Roger Leir to your (Steven's) UFO
UpDates post. It mentions Ray Santilli's reply to the NFB
findings on the film scraps.

  Interesting, I did not know he had given film to others.
  He sent me a direct e-mail in which he said he did not
  believe the report we sent him. Well that's okay. He can
  never complain that we weren't true to our word.
  Roger


Nick Balaskas







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 27

                    Re: 200 Questions-Remember Bennewitz!

From: Dave Ledger <dledger@cableinet.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 19:08:46 +0000
Fwd Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 21:43:14 -0500
Subject: Re: 200 Questions-Remember Bennewitz!


>Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 15:09:40 +1100
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>From: Mike Farrell <mikefarr@midcoast.com.au>
>Subject: 200 Questions-Remember Bennewitz!

>Hello UpDates List,

>I just got a funny feeling listening to all this talk about the
>"200 questions" and the reputations, credibiltiy, and
>accountability implied. Do you all remember what happened to Dr.
>Paul Bennewitz. If not, look in any good UFO book for
>references.


Dear Errol, Mike and fellow List members,

I would just like to take this opportunity to thank Mike Farrell
for making one of the best, rational and constructive posts to
this list, that I have seen in a long time. Perhaps if we all
took a similar approach and ended the in-fighting, we would all
make a little more progress instead of chasing our tails and
doing very little to advance the sincere research of ufology.

I thank you all for your time,

Take care all,

>From your friend in bonnie Scotland,

                                   Dave Ledger (UFO Scotland)

P.S: Mr Stephens, I am still awaiting your reply if possible <G>

On Wed, 27 Jan 1999 15:09:40 +1100  Mike Farrell wrote:



==================================================================
If you see someone without a smile......give them one of yours :)
******************************************************************
Posted by: Dave Ledger  (mailto:UFOSCOT@cableinet.co.uk)
VISIT "UFO SCOTLAND" AT:
<A HREF="http://wkweb5.cableinet.co.uk/dledger/index.htm">UFO
Scotland.</A>
ICQ pager      http://wwp.mirabilis.com/4851425
******************************************************************
THE TRUTH IS JUST AROUND THE CORNER!..................BUT HOW FAR?
==================================================================
"The sands of time are trickling away from our dear mother Earth
and yet we continue to fight amongst ourselves and destroy our
natural enviroment,leaving all the mess for our children and
their children's children to inherit when we're gone."





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 27

                           CUFORG Web Site Update

From: Ian Darlington <cuforg@interweb-design.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 20:54:14 -0000
Fwd Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 21:45:31 -0500
Subject: CUFORG Web Site Update


Dear List,

Just to let you know the Cornwall UFO Research Group Web site
has finally been updated - it now includes a photo gallery of a
anomalous objects and phenomena.

http://www.interweb-design.co.uk/cuforg/

We will soon begin emailing the quarterly newsletter to those in
the exchange programme - sorry for the break.

Any researchers wishing to join the programme, please contact us
for further details.

Regards,

Ian Darlington.
Editor/Webmaster 'Skywatchers'.

Cornwall UFO Research Group
http://www.interweb-design.co.uk/cuforg
mailto:cuforg@interweb-design.co.uk
ICQ 12387110








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 27

                    Re: Taking the Heat Out Of 'The Heat'

From: Tony Spurrier <TSpurrier@compuserve.com>
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 15:58:14 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 21:56:24 -0500
Subject: Re: Taking the Heat Out Of 'The Heat'


>From: Roy Hale <roy.hale@virgin.net>
>Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 17:11:38 -0000
>Fwd Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 13:22:02 -0500
>Subject: Taking the Heat Out Of 'The Heat'

>Issue 5 "Down To Earth Magazine" out now, the Magazine for
>todays ufologist =A32.00 per issue

Roy

You have a very interesting magazine but I have a query on the
report entitled "Three sided mystery' apparently written by you
which appeared in issue 2.

In the report you state that two witnesses see a large flying
triangle and then drive to Great Munden, Herts. You then state
that the week that followed the deserted country lanes around
Great Munden were closed for road works and state that this was
a 'business like response' from the MOD. The query I have is
that the road closures commenced on the 1st October 1997, and
the large triangle was witnessed some 3 weeks earlier. This
discrepancy alters the whole implication of your article, can
you explain why this wasn't picked up during your investigation?

Following the report you have included the 'Elufon comment'
which was again by yourself. Do you comment on your own articles
or was the original article written by someone else?

In those comments you state "I can assure the reader that the
military are aware of the Extra-Terrestrial Triangle and are
tracking this craft whenever they get the chance". Have you got
in your possesion government documents that back up your
assurances, or was this purely your opinion?

Thanks, Tony






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 27

                One of Santilli's Statements circa July 1995

From: Neil Morris <neil@adm1.ph.man.ac.uk>
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 22:27:18 -0800
Fwd Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 22:49:57 -0500
Subject: One of Santilli's Statements circa July 1995


All,

As there seem to be a number of newer UpDates members who
weren't around when the AA film erupted onto the scene here's
one of Ray's replies to a series of questions asked by James
Easton, Ray gives a brief "history" of the film together with
details of the number of reels and stock types.

If you FTP into my machine adm2.ph.man.ac.uk and log in as
anonymous with your email as password you can find a bunch of
"large" text files in the roswell sub dir there, with a generic
file name of ALL-xxx.txt, these are digests of many of the
dialogs going on at the time on alt.paranet.ufo newsgroup and
others, relating to the AA film. In there you can follow the
trail identifying the "phone and curley cord" and "the clock",
"surgical instuments" AND how they should be held!. It's all
interesting stuff.

Neil.

======================start

    06-Jul-95  18:48:23
Sb: #93080-#Disturbing Developments
Fm: Ray Santilli ***********
To: James Easton ***********

James,

The only disturbing development is that I am often creditied for
saying things that are just not true.

Around July of 1993 (I do not have the date to hand) I was
working in the US on a music programme. The programme was based
on the development of Rock'N' Roll and the fear it was creating
in the establishment. As a result of our research I came across a
freelance cameraman of the 50's who was used by Universal News
because of a union strike at the time. He filmed many young up
and coming stars.

We purchased of him around 5 minutes of film, paid him cash, no
paperwork it was all very simple. As a result he then asked us
if we were interested in buying other footage. He then relayed
the story we now all know.

We agreed to meet him at his house and for the first time viewed
the footage.

Although I agreed to buy the footage if everything checked out I
did not have the available CASH to give him and was not able to
raise it through normal means.

During this time I had contacted Philip Mantle in order to find
out as much as I could about Roswell, I acknowledge that I may
have said to Philip at the time that the film was already
purchased (standard practice when you do not wish someone to
circumvent you for the product).

To cut a long story short. I did not come up with the money and
kept up a strained relationship with the cameraman with promises.
Eventually  he just gave up on me and refused to take my calls,
At the end of 1994 I re-established contact, this time with the
money, the transaction was finally concluded in January.

            ______________________________________

Please ask Colin Andrews for detailed information regarding the
Chinese that came with him to my office, I can't remember their
names.


The Cameraman was sent from Washington.

The Cameraman processed the film at his lab.

The autopsys were conducted in Dallas.

20 reels of positive safety print, 1 reel of scrap,  1 reel of
neg

On leaving, in 1952 the cameraman was able to take anything that
was deemed his property, There was no security, no checks he was
able to take what he wanted (I know it sounds strange).

The reels were not labelled with a discription of their contents.
Just numbers.

On part of the tent footage there is a date board which was
added after (it continues after the footage is over) It could be
the date of process (we don't know).

___________________________________________________________

Its 1am, I may have missed some questions there may be spelling
errors but thats it for now.

Regards,

Ray

================end
-------------------------------------------------------

Neil Morris@Home.
Email:             Neil@adm1.ph.man.ac.uk

-------------------------------------------------------





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 27

                       Re: Open Letter To IUR Readers

From: Wendy Connors <ProjectSign@email.msn.com>
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 12:46:47 -0700
Fwd Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 22:12:04 -0500
Subject: Re: Open Letter To IUR Readers


>From: Tim Matthews <matthews@zetnet.co.uk>
>To: <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Open Letter To Iur Readers
>Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 21:32:25 -0000


>Dear All,

>This is an important response to an article that recently
>appeared in the IUR journal entitled "Alfred Loedding; New
>Insight On The Man Behind Project Sign" (IUR Winter 1998 Volume
>23, Number 4, pp.3 - 28).

>I read with interest the recent article featured in this
>excellent and improving journal. The article in question,
>written by Wendy Connors and Michael David Hall, is of a
>particularly high standard but totally fails to mention certain
>points of importance.

Thank you Tim for your illuminating look into your research. It
was very interesting.

However, I would like to address your concerns regarding our
article on Alfred Loedding. The IUR article was intended to
introduce Alfred Loedding to the ufological community and
outline, briefly, his contributions to the first official
investigation of unidentified flying objects under the auspices
of Project SIGN. Unfortunately, the article, as to your view,
did not go far enough. It was never meant too for several
reasons. First, space in CUFOS' fine publication (IUR) is
limited and necessitates editing. Secondly, Mr. Hall and myself
will be writing a complete and factual book detailing Alfred
Loedding's life and the development of low aspect ratio, VTOL,
etc. aircraft. This endeavor takes a great deal of time and not
all family members have been interviewed as yet, but we are
working on this aspect as quickly as possible. To date, new
information has been obtained and is being reviewed and
discussed between Mike and myself. This information will be
released to our peers as soon as practical.

Interviews with surviving members of the Project SIGN team
continue at this time. New information has been obtained as to
how the AAF/USAF operated during this time frame and takes time
to assess. This information, in an synopsis form, is contantly
shared with several Lists and are available to anyone who asks.
Mike and I do keep several items confidential until such time as
secondary confirmation can be obtained.

As to your work in research regarding low aspect ratio work
involving the development of flying disc-type aircraft under the
aegis of the U.S. military, you are correct in your assumption
that some work was being done during this time frame
(1947/48/49). Alfred Loedding had prepared actual working models
of disc-type aircraft that were tested at Wright Field. However,
the entire story as to whether these type aircraft went beyond
models and a singular flying model, is still open to
interpretation. We feel that to speculate that the military had
functioning disc-type aircraft in abundance to account for all
sightings, is just not true. Albeit, even today, if the military
had disc-type aircraft in development there is no documentation,
etc. that shows such craft were in sufficient numbers to account
for all such sightings of UFOs today. Mike and I are extremely
cautious in our research. We, of course, are not above making a
few errors as we go along, however, you will not find in our
work sheer speculation, but speculation that is based upon
enough documentation, etc. to warrant a best-guess scenario. As
our research progresses we find that we have to adjust our
previous views and are sure that this will continue well into
the future.

If you, or anyone on the Lists wish to know more about Alfred
Loedding and the 1947 Flying Disc Wave, our general book
entitiled: Alfred Loedding and the Great Flying Saucer Wave is
available. Cost is $21.95 post paid domestically and $27.00
Foreign orders from: Wendy Connors, P.O. Box 8552, Albuquerque,
New Mexico 87198. We are almost out of copies, so orders should
be sent asap. We have not made a decision on whether to reprint
at this time.

Thank You,

Wendy Connors

Project SIGN Research Center
InterLink Site Directory
http://www.evansville.net/~slk/InterLink.html

Tim Matthews - January 27th 1999"

Tim Matthews - author of "UFO Revelation - The Secret Technology
Exposed?", out on February 18th!!






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 28

                    Deficiency In SETI's Drake's Equation

From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj@proaxis.com>
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 17:01:51 -0800 (PST)
Fwd Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 04:55:29 -0500
Subject: Deficiency In SETI's Drake's Equation

Have any of you sometimes wondered if there is any way we could
cause a few SETI scientists to open their minds a bit, so as to
include searching for any ETI who would be aware of our
existence and perhaps interacting with us? I recently tried this
using SETI's favorite Drake equation as the vehicle. Sometimes
you can gain a scientist's attention if you point out an
inconsistency in a favorite equation they use. And it helps if
you can feed in even one simple equation of your own. So that
was my approach. However, it's been nearly a week now and I
haven't heard back from any SETI person. But maybe that was due
to my finding no e-mail address to use other than
<info@set-inst.edu> mentioned in SETI's website. If you should
know of a more relevant SETI e-mail address I could send it to,
please let me know.

For those who haven't run into Drake's equation, it goes like:

N = Rx . fp . ne . fc . fi . fc . L  (N is a product of all
these factors)

where N is the No. of civilizations in our galaxy whose radio
emissions are detectable from Earth; Rx is the rate of formation
of suitable stars,... L is the "lifetime" of communicating
civilizations.

Notice that they leave out all civilizations that no longer
utilize radio wave communications, plus other possibilities,
though they allow L to be as large as millions of years.

  Jim Deardorff

PS, FYI the letter I sent out is given below:
-  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -

Dear SETI Spokesperson:

Do you know of anyone in the SETI organization who is interested
in investigating the incompleteness and inconsistency of the
Drake equation? If so, I'd like to get into contact with them if
you should think they might find it mutually beneficial.

What I have in mind is this. If Nd is the"N" of the Drake
Equation (d stands for Drake), then it is evident that Nd refers
only to those civilizations in our galaxy whose means of
communication have not evolved much beyond the use of radio
waves. Omitted then are the number of more advanced
civilizations, Nadv, whose communication capabilites have
rendered radio-wave communications essentially obsolete. Since
most of these Nadv presumably possess large L (lifetime), it
seems inconsistent that the L within the Drake Equation includes
their presumed large L values while Nd itself excludes them by
searching only through radio-wave telescopy.

In addition, we may add in Ns = No. of civilizations in our
galaxy without more advanced means of communications but whose
radio-wave emissions we do not detect because they are too
distant. Thus

Ntot = Nd + Nadv + Ns

Since it is not implausible that Nadv >> Nd, we should be
interested in Nadv, at least if there is any way that we could
detect them. Now

Nadv = Ni + Nn + Nun,

where

Ni  = No. of advanced civilizations in the galaxy that are aware
of our own civilization and interacting with us in some way,

Nn  = No. of advanced civilizations in the galaxy that are aware
of our own civilization but are not interacting with us in any
way, and

Nun = No. of advanced civilizations in the galaxy that are
unaware of the existence of our own civilization.

Thus Ntot = Nd + Ni + Nn + Nun + Ns.

(Ntot could be extended further, of course, by considering any
ETI who possess inter-galactic travel capabilities.)

Of Ntot, it is obvious that Ni should be of greatest interest to
us. They are of the kind discussed by J.A. Ball (1973) in his
"zoo hypothesis," or mentioned by Kuiper & Morris (1977)
regarding knowledge-seeking advanced ETs who may be covertly
observing us, or by E. R. Harrison (1981) in his "embargo"
hypothesis, or by J. Barrett (1983) in his "Laboratory"
hypothesis, or by Sagan & Newman (1983) in discussing ETI who
would treat an emerging civilization delicately, or in my own
"leaky embargo" hypothesis (QJRAS 27 (1986)), etc.

The search for Ni has of course been ongoing for several decades
within the area of ufology. The scientific review panel convened
by astrophysicist Peter Sturrock last fall, which examined the
evidence presented by seven UFO investigators, provided a fresh
start towards investigating Ni.

Thus my search for persons within your organization interested
in Ni seeks those who are not afraid of the "UFO" word, and who
also can allow that the ETI involved could be far advanced over
us in their intelligence and in the strategy they may have of
dealing with much less advanced civilizations, not to mention
their great headstart in science & technology.

Sincerely,

James W. Deardorff
Research Professor Emeritus
Oregon State University








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 28

                    Re: 200 Questions-Remember Bennewitz!

From: Roger R. Prokic <rprokic@earthlink.net>
Date: Wed,  27 Jan 1999 18:41
Fwd Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 05:07:34 -0500
Subject: Re: 200 Questions-Remember Bennewitz!


>Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 15:09:40 +1100
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>From: Mike Farrell <mikefarr@midcoast.com.au>
>Subject: 200 Questions-Remember Bennewitz!

>The fact is, Richard Hoagland single-handedly drove home the
>point that NASA does indeed deserve it's acronym "Never A
>Straight Answer". And if you want to argue that point, it still
>doesn't dismiss the fact that public perception of such agencies
>is sorely lacking in Trust and Confidence. We all know that
>where's there's smoke, there's usually fire! NASA has not been
>completely honest and responsive to the citizens that began and
>still pay for it's missions. Most NASA activity is now
>classified military priorities.

It's a shame that I have to reply to your Hoagland-like
mentality.  I don't understand why you say NASA means "Never A
Straight Answer".  Give me some examples!

Also, there's not one cent of the NASA budget that is
appropriated as "classified military priorities".  Not one cent!
If you want to know where the NASA budget goes, the information
is easily available - and not a black budget!  The money goes
to:  International Space Station, Space Shuttle, Mars Surveyor
Program, Discovery programs, New Millenium programs, EOS,
Astrobiology, etc.

I have worked for NASA for 10 years, and now as a contractor for
3 years.  I am an insider.  I know the truth. <g>


Roger R. Prokic
Telecom Design Lead
Mars Surveyor Program
Lockheed Martin Astronautics
Denver, Colorado USA
-=[sent from a Palm III & Multimail Pro v2.2]=-





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 28

                Re: Santilli Knew 'Tent Footage' Was a Fraud?

From: moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 21:11:58 +0000
Fwd Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 05:29:16 -0500
Subject: Re: Santilli Knew 'Tent Footage' Was a Fraud?


>From: Bob Shell <bob@bobshell.com>
>Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 08:03:46 +0000
>Fwd Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 20:17:28 -0500
>Subject: Re: Santilli Knew 'Tent Footage' Was a Fraud?

>>From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
>>Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 14:02:23 +0000
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>Subject: Santilli Knew 'Tent Footage' Was a Fraud?


>The cartridge load 16 mm cameras were originated by Kodak as a
>way to lock the user in to Kodak film, since that was the only
>film available in the cartridges.

<snip>

>I did not say anything about unusual pitch of sprocket holes.
>The spacing of sprocket holes changed at some point in the 50s
>(I have the exact data somewhere) when Kodak went to a new
>system to make the holes.  It had changed a few times earlier as
>well.  By using a special guage Kodak can determine the rough
>age of film from this spacing.

Sorry, Bob. My mistake. I misunderstood your previous post which
read:

>I submitted the portion which had been processed to Eastman
>Kodak for identification, and they verified that it had been
>correctly developed, and from the edge markings and sprocket
>spacing (which changed at several points) positively
>identified it as 1945 production.

I took the the phrase "(which changed at several points)" to
mean, literally, just that. I could not understand why the pitch
would change or be different within the same strip of film! As
you can imagine, the only thing that would come close to
matching that description would, in fact, be unsplit regular
8mm. It would have been 16mm wide but with twice as many
sprocket holes!

Now I understand. Thanks. :)

Was there anything usable (that Santilli didn't keep!) <G>

Later,

Roger Evans






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 28

              Re: 1999 UFO Alien Abduction Conference Announced

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 20:32:36 EST
Fwd Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 05:24:58 -0500
Subject: Re: 1999 UFO Alien Abduction Conference Announced


Dear Kevin Randle and List...

Regarding your views on the upcoming UFO conference by the
Intruders Foundation....

A little surprised to read your comments here and on UASR, Kevin.
Even Gripple won't use these bitter grapes for our fresh wine.

Isn't there enough room in ufology for differing points of view?
And isn't there sufficient venue for an organization to present
their side of the issue, without having to invite everyone with
a varying perspective?  Cripes Kevin, they would need a room the
size of Yankee Stadium for all the dissenters.

I opened with an opine, "A little surprised!"  Actually, I am
more than a little surprised and more than a lot disappointed.
Because this to me, is just one more example of the division
which intrudes on the research.  It is an oxymoron as well.

This is a strange and wonderful business, this UFO research....
is it not? I'm strange and you're wonderful, but only because
our points of view differ. Otherwise we're both wonderful, eh?

Nuts and sour grapes make up your menu.  Mine has a steady diet
of gruel. But I'm regular as rain in London and, I can live with
myself and my points
of view.  Can you?

Jim Mortellaro






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 28

              Re: 1999 UFO Alien Abduction Conference Announced

From: Rebecca Keith <xiannekei@yahoo.com>
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 18:28:54 -0800 (PST)
Fwd Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 05:32:59 -0500
Subject: Re: 1999 UFO Alien Abduction Conference Announced


>From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
>Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 22:23:11 EST
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Re: 1999 UFO Alien Abduction Conference Announced

[...]

>>The conference is planned as both a crash course in the ongoing
>>UFO abduction phenomenon - what we know and how we know it - and
>>an illustrated presentation of the latest research findings.

>It will only be a crash course in belief structure and it will
>not contain the latest findings. Only those findings which they
>want you to hear. In an upcoming book by Kevin Randle (me), Russ
>Estes, and Dr. William P. Cone, we take a long and hard look at
>the abduction phenomenon as it exists today. We can find some
>alternative explanations and we offered to share these at the
>conference, but the organizers were uninterested in that. They
>are only interested in promoting alien abduction as if it is a
>proven fact and refuse to answer hard questions about it.

Kevin,

I would be most interested in hearing more about the new
research and alternative explanations. When is the book coming
out?

What is the specialty of Dr. William Cone? Is he an MD or PhD?

Perhaps you could share some highlights of the new research with
this list.

Thanks,
Rebecca






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 28

                    Re: Greenwood on MJ-12 - Corrections

From: Jan Aldrich <jan@cyberzone.net>
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 22:34:54 -0800
Fwd Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 05:51:51 -0500
Subject: Re: Greenwood on MJ-12 - Corrections


>Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 13:00:24 -0800
>From: Jan Aldrich <jan@cyberzone.net>
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Re: Greenwood on MJ-12

There are several mistake in the previous post:


>"The origin of the documents cannot not be established.
>What's to say rather than chronicles of real events created
>in some government office, they would the work of people in
>trying fool someone?"

This paragraph should read:

The origin of the documents cannot not be established.
What's to say rather than chronicles of real events created
in some government office, they are the work of people in
trying fool someone.



>"This section for Army Regulation 350-5 describes generally
>the procedure for handling Top Secret information.  Specific
>implementation instruction are elsewhere."

The Army Regulation above is 380-5 not 350-5.


Finally:

>"The SOM 1-01 should have displayed similar markings on the
>cover: a Top Secret control number and the which of copy of the
>total number of copies."

And this paragraph should read:

The SOM 1-01 should have displayed similar markings on the
cover: a Top Secret control number and  which copy of the total
number of copies (ie copy 1 of 3 copies).


There are others, but these are the worst.

--
Jan Aldrich
Project 1947
http://www.iufog.org/project1947/
P. O. Box 391, Canterbury, CT 06331, USA
Telephone: (860) 546-9135





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 28

              Re: 1999 UFO Alien Abduction Conference Announced

From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net>
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 00:47:18 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 06:19:32 -0500
Subject: Re: 1999 UFO Alien Abduction Conference Announced


>From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
>Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 22:23:11 EST
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Re: 1999 UFO Alien Abduction Conference Announced

>>From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@get2net.dk>
>>Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 02:02:26 +0100 (MET)
>>Subject: 1999 UFO Alien Abduction Conference Announced
>>To: updates@globalserve.net

>>Source: "alt.ufo.reports".

>>Stig

>>From: "Gerard Vanderleun"
>>gerard.vanderleun@generalmedia.com>
>>Newsgroups: alt.ufo.reports
>>Subject: 1999 UFO ALIEN ABDUCTION CONFERENCE
>>Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 11:49:06 -0500
>>ef: news.get2net.dk alt.ufo.reports:26306

>>The Intruders Foundation Presents

>>THE 1999 UFO ABDUCTION CONFERENCE
>>-  WHAT WE KNOW AND HOW WE KNOW IT -

>>On Saturday, April 10, 1999, New York City will be the site of a
>>day-long national conference on the UFO abduction phenomenon.
>>Four of America's most respected UFO researchers - Budd Hopkins,
>>Stanton Friedman, David Jacobs and Jerome Clark - will welcome
>>the public to a cutting-edge presentation of current evidence
>>for the reality and possible future of alien abductions.

>Not all the evidence. Only that which they want you to hear. You
>will notice that there are no speakers or information offered
>about alternatives to these specific people's opinions. How
>cutting edge can it be without alternative explanations being
>offered.

>>The conference is planned as both a crash course in the ongoing
>>UFO abduction phenomenon - what we know and how we know it - and
>>an illustrated presentation of the latest research findings.

>It will only be a crash course in belief structure and it will
>not contain the latest findings. Only those findings which they
>want you to hear. In an upcoming book by Kevin Randle (me), Russ
>Estes, and Dr. William P. Cone, we take a long and hard look at
>the abduction phenomenon as it exists today. We can find some
>alternative explanations and we offered to share these at the
>conference, but the organizers were uninterested in that. They
>are only interested in promoting alien abduction as if it is a
>proven fact and refuse to answer hard questions about it.

>KRandle

Hello Kevin, hi All,

The truth of the situation is this:

A. Greg Sandow called me and told me of your interest/offer to
participate in the conference. We both thought it was a
_great_idea_ and we thought it would lend 'balance' and
alternative points of view to the presentation.

B. We both brought it up at the very next business meeting.
Not only did we bring it up, _we_pitched_it_ because we both
felt you would be a good addition.

C. The _only_ reasons it was rejected are the following:

1. We had _already_ invited Dave Jacobs, Stanton Friedman and
Jerry Clark. (Stan and Jerry need to be flown in.)

2. We are working on a shoestring and we _couldn't_afford_ to
fly in a third speaker!

Period!

Are you suggesting a conspiracy or an attempt to keep you out
because of your views? _Nothing_ is farther from the truth. You
are welcome to verify any of what I have said here with either
Greg Sandow or Budd Hopkins.

If _any_ of the prior commitments hadn't already been made, Greg
and I were prepared to argue for your inclusion but we can't
afford to bring you in as well.

That's the truth.

Sincerely,

John Velez, Webmaster IF-AIC (IF Conference organizer)
________________________________________________
                                jvif@spacelab.net
INTRUDERS FOUNDATION/ABDUCTION INFORMATION CENTER
                            http://www.if-aic.com
"Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind."
________________________________________________





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 28

              Re: 1999 UFO Alien Abduction Conference Announced

From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net>
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 23:27:29 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 06:47:17 -0500
Subject: Re: 1999 UFO Alien Abduction Conference Announced


>From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
>Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 22:23:11 EST
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Re: 1999 UFO Alien Abduction Conference Announced

>It will only be a crash course in belief structure and it will
>not contain the latest findings. Only those findings which they
>want you to hear. In an upcoming book by Kevin Randle (me), Russ
>Estes, and Dr. William P. Cone, we take a long and hard look at
>the abduction phenomenon as it exists today. We can find some
>alternative explanations and we offered to share these at the
>conference, but the organizers were uninterested in that. They
>are only interested in promoting alien abduction as if it is a
>proven fact and refuse to answer hard questions about it.

>KRandle

Kevin,

You made your offer directly to me, and I was sympathetic to
having you appear. Others weren't. I see the point you're making
now, and I can see how it's reasonable to you.

On the other hand, this conference isn't meant as the last word
in scientific discussion of abductions, and in fact isn't meant
to be a conference in the scientific sense of the word, as the
abduction conference at MIT was. It's a presentation of certain
views to the public, and can be as opinionated as it wants.

In any case, Jerry Clark will be making a presentation, and he's
far from a hard-core abduction believer. We can count on him to
summarize a good balance of views, both pro and con. In fact, as
the moderator of the conference, I'll insist on it.

If you'd like to formulate a question for me to ask the
participants in the final panel discussion, I'll be happy to
consider asking it. I'm also looking forward to reading your
book.

Best,

Greg Sandow





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 28

              Re: 1999 UFO Alien Abduction Conference Announced

From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 00:46:33 EST
Fwd Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 07:03:59 -0500
Subject: Re: 1999 UFO Alien Abduction Conference Announced


>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
>Subject: Re: 1999 UFO Alien Abduction Conference Announced
>Date: Wed, 27 Jan 99 11:29:24 PST


>>From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
>>Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 22:23:11 EST
>>To: updates@globalserve.net
>>Subject: Re: 1999 UFO Alien Abduction Conference Announced

>>>From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@get2net.dk>
>>>Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 02:02:26 +0100 (MET)
>>>Subject: 1999 UFO Alien Abduction Conference Announced
>>>To: updates@globalserve.net

>>>Source: "alt.ufo.reports".

<snip>

>>>The conference is planned as both a crash course in the ongoing
>>>UFO abduction phenomenon - what we know and how we know it - and
>>>an illustrated presentation of the latest research findings.

>>It will only be a crash course in belief structure and it will
>>not contain the latest findings. Only those findings which they
>>want you to hear. In an upcoming book by Kevin Randle (me), Russ
>>Estes, and Dr. William P. Cone, we take a long and hard look at
>>the abduction phenomenon as it exists today. We can find some
>>alternative explanations and we offered to share these at the
>>conference, but the organizers were uninterested in that. They
>>are only interested in promoting alien abduction as if it is a
>>proven fact and refuse to answer hard questions about it.

>Kevin,

>I am afraid that none of the above makes much sense to me. First
>of all, the organizers of any conference on any subject have the
>right to invite exactly whom they want to invite, and to have
>represented any point of view they endorse, feel comfortable
>with, or consider important.  If you're not happy with the views
>expressed at the Intruders conference, hold your own damn
>conference.

Absolutely correct. However, when they suggest that they will be
telling us what we know and how we know it, they invite those
who may not agree with them to point out that some viewpoints
and information might not be presented. I was merely suggesting
that this conference, based on those invited to present
information, have already expressed, in other arenas, books,
articles and conversations a specific point of view. No one who
holds a contrary point of view is on the schedule.

>Second of all, unless you are claiming telepathic powers, I
>don't think you know what I'm going to say, and I resent the
>implication that I am involved in some sort of misleading
>propaganda effort.

I didn't claim telepathic powers.  Instead, I suggested, based
on the past history of those speakers,  that a certain point of
view will be in evidence. Are you suggesting that there will be
a contrary point of view? Are you suggesting that you are going
to suggest that some abductions might be the result of well
established psychological pathologies? Are you going to suggest
that some abductees might have invented their tales for the
attention that it brings them?

Please note that I have not suggested that _all_ abductees have
psychological problems or have invented their tales. I'm only
suggesting that some do, a point that we, in the UFO community,
are reluctant to mention.

>And third of all, I look forward to reading your book.  I just
>hope that it's better than other books which have sought
>reductionist explanations for this peculiar phenomenon. What we
>all need, really, is a book by Eddie Bullard -- than whom no one
>knows more about the abduction maze or has so balanced a view --
>on the subject.

>Jerry Clark

Well, no one has stopped Eddie Bullard from writing that book.
Instead we looked at about 200 or 300 abductions, looked at
various other scientific and psychological phenomena, and made
some observations that should have been obvious.

However, please note here that I have not suggested that all
abductions can be explained by a single answer. I have not
suggested that those claiming abduction suffer from any
psychopathology. But I have also noted that those doing
abduction research have made, at least one, basic mistake.
Contrary to what has been said, the AMA has not endorsed
hypnosis.

 KRandle





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 28

                           Re: RAMS: NASA The Lies

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 00:43:16 EST
Fwd Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 07:10:47 -0500
Subject: Re:  RAMS: NASA The Lies


>From: Leanne Martin <leanne_martin@hotmail.com>
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Re: RAMS: NASA The Lies
>Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 22:26:07 PST


>>Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 10:47:10 +0000
>>From: "Robert A.M. Stephens" <sti3818@montana.com>
>>To: UFO Updates Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>,
>>Subject: RAMS: Re: NASA The Lies

>>'JM' wrote:

>>Okay, 'JM', whoever you are, at the request of Peter Gersten,
>>here goes.

>>>To Mr. Robert A. Stephens:

>>Good start. No calling me a 'xxxxsucker'. Thank you.

>G'day Mr.RAMS, Mr.Gripple & List,

>I forgot to mention that in Puerto Rico maybe it would stand for
>a goatsucker.

>'Nuff of the trivia, back to your squabbles . . .


Dearest Leanne... List and other entities lurking....

Dr. Gripple here. I understand how much you all love me. And I
love you too. Really, I do!

And I do not wish to imply that in addressing your
latest post, Leanne....

>G'day Mr.RAMS, Mr.Gripple & List,...

That you meant it was _I_ to whom Mr. RAM-a-LAM referred in his
post.......

I can assure you that the "JM" to which Mr. Ram'a'lam refers, is
definitely not MOI!

Honest.

In fact, ever since Mr. Fromage said positive things about RAM,
I refuse to enter the frey... fray.... foofoo.

Whatever.

Just for the record folks... "No, No, No, well it aint me Babe,
it aint me you're lookin for, Babe!"

It was another JM. "I was only robbin' the register! I hope ya
understand." In UpDates, if you're JM, and you're out on the
streets, you're gonna draw the heat........

In the unlikely event you do not know what the hell I am talking
about, pick up a copy of The Ballad of Hurricaine Rubin Carter
by Bob Dylan and you will see how someone like Hurricaine, and a
champion such as me, could get blamed for sumpin' that he never
done.

Put in a prison cell but one,
time,
he cuda been,
the champion
of the world-uh.

Thank you and good Gripplin'
Gesundt... height!






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 28

                      Re: Area 51 - The Alien Interview

From: Michel M. Deschamps <ufoman@ican.net>
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 01:07:22 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 07:14:54 -0500
Subject: Re: Area 51 - The Alien Interview


>Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 10:50:04 -0500
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
>Subject: Re: Area 51 - The Alien Interview

>I suspect that DirecTV refers to the satellite television
>company through which the original was recorded.

>Is your video of the entire 'Alien Interview' program (which was
>sold through the mail), or the program 'Strange Universe' which
>was referenced in the post that Errol mentioned?

>To my knowledge, the entire 'Alien Interview' was never shown on
>television, and the 'Strange Universe' show was designed to hype
>it and sell more copies.


Steve,

The copy I have includes opinions and statements by Robert Dean,
Shawn Morton, Art Bell, David Adair (who claims to have worked
on a propulsion system), and Tom Coleman, President of Rocket
Pictures, who received the initial call from "Victor".

Steven Williams, who played a black "deep throat" on the
X-Files, narrates the presentation.  We see "Victor" in shadow
being interviewed by someone.  There are also black and white
re-enactments concerning EBE-1 and EBE-2.  As for the Alien
Interview, it is first run without any word from anyone.  Then
"Victor" explains what is unfolding during the playback. Also, a
review of the tape by Jim Dilettoso. There are also a couple of
Special Effects experts (Rick Baker included) who give their
opinions about the alien. This is what my copy consists of.  I'd
like to know the date of airing.  If unable to find, will mark
down closest date possible. In any event, thanks for the help.

Michel






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 28

                           Re: A Tale from Africa

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 02:17:51 EST
Fwd Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 07:21:58 -0500
Subject: Re: A Tale from Africa


>From: Leanne Martin <leanne_martin@hotmail.com>
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Re: A Tale from Africa
>Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 20:22:15 PST


>G'day List,

>(Aside) Have we stumbled on the real cause of the Irish
>"Troubles" here? <g>

>All those young boys expressing their sexuality/gender
>frustrations by over-compensation -> running around as adults
>blowing each other up under the veil of (dare I touch the
>subject again?) religious differences? <g>

>Oh dear . . . what will Mr. Mortallaro think of me now? <g>

>Regards,
>Leanne  ];-)


Dearest Leanne, Blow up dolls and other List members... In
answer to your question.....

Nuttin' honey.... I been drinkin Gripple!

So as not to incur your or other's wrath, the term "Nuttin'
Honey" is used here in the good ol' US of A in our beloved
commercial for Nuts 'n' Honey cereal.

"Whatcha eatin' "  asks the hubby of his wifey.

"Nuttin' honey!" is the answer.  Just aks (I is originally fum
the Bronks) ... just aks my wife. She'll tell yous I got nuttin,
honey!

Oh, and BTW, it's Dr. Mortellaro

But hey, we don' need no estinkin titles!






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 28

                 Missing CIA Documents on www.foia.ucia.gov

From: Ed Fouche <fouche@connecti.com>
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 23:28:45 -0600
Fwd Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 07:31:13 -0500
Subject: Missing CIA Documents on www.foia.ucia.gov


Dear List:

I was visiting the CIA's Freedom of Information Act Web Page
doing some research on Released UFO documents.  To my surprise,
not one of the 50 documents I tried to open worked.  I also
noticed dozens of "Deleted" files.

I also searched >UFO< and none of the documents came up?

Anyone have any information on what's going on?


CIA FOIA WEB PAGE: http://www.foia.ucia.gov/frame2.htm

The result:
CGI Error
The specified CGI application misbehaved by not returning a
complete set of HTTP headers. The headers it did return are:



Samples:

1. NEW DCD CASE (DELETED) - UFO RESEARCH Pub Date:April 2, 1976
Pages:0002

2. DCD CASE (DELETED) - UFO RESEARCH (DELETED) Pub Date:April
25, 1976 Pages:0004

3. CASE (DELETED) - UFO RESEARCH/ORD REQUEST FOR ADDITIONAL
INFORMATION (DE LETED) Pub Date:June 24, 1976 Pages:0002

4. CASE (DELETED) - UFO RESEARCH Pub Date:April 13, 1976
Pages:0002

5. UNTITLED (23 SEPT (DELETED) WITH PERSONAL REQUEST TO
INVESTIGATE UFO SI GHTED Pub Date:September 23, 1976 Pages:0002

6. UNTITLED (ORD FOR TRAINING NEEDS LOAN OF FILM - UFO-FACT OR
FANCY) Pub Date:April 9, 1967 Pages:0001

7. UNTITLED (ASKS WHAT PROGRESS HAS BEEN MADE ON REF
CORRESPONDENCE) Pub Date:May 13, 1957 Pages:0001

8. UNTITLED (RECEIVED TWO LETTERS FROM DAVIDSON ASKING
INFORMATION ON UFOS ) Pub Date:April 25, 1957 Pages:0002

9. UNTITLED (REFER FLYING SAUCER LETTER DAVIDSON. COPY OF ATIC
LETTER NOT RECEI Pub Date:August 4, 1957 Pages:0002

10. UNTITLED (DAVIDSON WANTS A VERBATIM TRANSLATION OF THE
'SPACE' MESSAGE AND THE Pub Date:December 17, 1957 Pages:0002

11. UNTITLED (CONTACT WITH LEON DAVIDSON WAS PERSON-TO-PERSON,
HE IS DOING AN ARTI Pub Date:December 19, 1957 Pages:0002

12. SUPPORT (DELETED) FROM (DELETED) (DISCUSSES DAVIDSON'S
ARTICLES AND PAG E 13-V Pub Date:January 30, 1958 Pages:0002

13. UNTITLED (BELIEVE ESTABLISHED AGENCY CHANNELS FOR FILM
UFO-FACT OR FANC Y) Pub Date:April 9, 1967 Pages:0001

14. UNTITLED (DCI HAS RECEIVED A LETTER FROM LEON DAVIDSON
REQUESTING INFOR MATION Pub Date:April 24, 1957 Pages:0001

15. UNTITLED (ON BASIS OF YOUR CONVERSATION WITH ATIC, WE
INFORMED DCI'S OF FICE T Pub Date:August 19, 1957 Pages:0001

16. UNTITLED (WE INFORMED YOUR OFFICE THERE IS NO TRANSLATION
AVAILABLE NOR IS TH Pub Date:December 18, 1957 Pages:0001

17. UNTITLED (DAVIDSON SENT A COPY OF HIS ARTICLE TO THE
PENTAGON) Pub Date:February 4, 1958 Pages:0002

18. UNIDENTIFIED FLYING OBJECT OBSERVED ON IRAN/USSR BORDER Pub
Date:August 12, 1957 Pages:0002

19. 1. (DELETED) 2. POSSIBLE UNIDENTIFIED FLYING OBJECT 3.
(DELETED) Pub Date:October 21, 1959 Pages:0003

End Document 278.

-----

Edgar Rothschild Fouche
Author of "Alien Rapture"
Home:  http://fouchemedia.com





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 28

                       Re: Open Letter To IUR Readers

From: Tim Matthews <matthews@zetnet.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 20:38:02 -0000
Fwd Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 07:39:01 -0500
Subject: Re: Open Letter To IUR Readers


>From: Wendy Connors <ProjectSign@email.msn.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: Open Letter To IUR Readers
>Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 12:46:47 -0700

>>From: Tim Matthews <matthews@zetnet.co.uk>
>>To: <updates@globalserve.net>
>>Subject: Open Letter To Iur Readers
>>Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 21:32:25 -0000

>>Dear All,

>>This is an important response to an article that recently
>>appeared in the IUR journal entitled "Alfred Loedding; New
>>Insight On The Man Behind Project Sign" (IUR Winter 1998 Volume
>>23, Number 4, pp.3 - 28).

>>I read with interest the recent article featured in this
>>excellent and improving journal. The article in question,
>>written by Wendy Connors and Michael David Hall, is of a
>>particularly high standard but totally fails to mention certain
>>points of importance.

>Thank you Tim for your illuminating look into your research. It
>was very interesting.

>However, I would like to address your concerns regarding our
>article on Alfred Loedding. The IUR article was intended to
>introduce Alfred Loedding to the ufological community and
>outline, briefly, his contributions to the first official
>investigation of unidentified flying objects under the auspices
>of Project SIGN. Unfortunately, the article, as to your view,
>did not go far enough. It was never meant too for several
>reasons. First, space in CUFOS' fine publication (IUR) is
>limited and necessitates editing. Secondly, Mr. Hall and myself
>will be writing a complete and factual book detailing Alfred
>Loedding's life and the development of low aspect ratio, VTOL,
>etc. aircraft. This endeavor takes a great deal of time and not
>all family members have been interviewed as yet, but we are
>working on this aspect as quickly as possible. To date, new
>information has been obtained and is being reviewed and
>discussed between Mike and myself. This information will be
>released to our peers as soon as practical.

This is very vital and I totally support what you're doing. I do
realise the slow pace of research!

>Interviews with surviving members of the Project SIGN team
>continue at this time. New information has been obtained as to
>how the AAF/USAF operated during this time frame and takes time
>to assess. This information, in an synopsis form, is contantly
>shared with several Lists and are available to anyone who asks.
>Mike and I do keep several items confidential until such time as
>secondary confirmation can be obtained.

>As to your work in research regarding low aspect ratio work
>involving the development of flying disc-type aircraft under the
>aegis of the U.S. military, you are correct in your assumption
>that some work was being done during this time frame
>(1947/48/49). Alfred Loedding had prepared actual working models
>of disc-type aircraft that were tested at Wright Field. However,
>the entire story as to whether these type aircraft went beyond
>models and a singular flying model, is still open to
>interpretation. We feel that to speculate that the military had
>functioning disc-type aircraft in abundance to account for all
>sightings, is just not true. Albeit, even today, if the military
>had disc-type aircraft in development there is no documentation,
>etc. that shows such craft were in sufficient numbers to account
>for all such sightings of UFOs today. Mike and I are extremely
>cautious in our research.

Absolutely and I'm sure we both agree on that. Of course we
still have this most unfortunate situation whereby both the USAF
and US Navy, to name but two, have adopted an obstreperous
attitude in regard to the release of information on their
projects.

We know that Dr. Richard Miethe was at Wright-Patt from the late
1940s and that he was involved in discussions relating
specifically to USAF discs with representatives of the AVRO
company in 1951 and 1952 but try getting official documentation
on that! We know that it exists having asked some specific
questions via FOIA - but still they hide behind their
classifications and 'National Security'.....

>We, of course, are not above making a
>few errors as we go along, however, you will not find in our
>work sheer speculation, but speculation that is based upon
>enough documentation, etc. to warrant a best-guess scenario. As
>our research progresses we find that we have to adjust our
>previous views and are sure that this will continue well into
>the future.

I well understand this. I have to say that when I read articles
like yours, Michaels' and Jans' it makes me annoyed to see all
the usual rubbish put out by British documentary teams of the
UFO subject. The work you are collectively doing is most
important and shows that Ufologists can adopt an academic
approach to these difficult questions.

>If you, or anyone on the Lists wish to know more about Alfred
>Loedding and the 1947 Flying Disc Wave, our general book
>entitiled: Alfred Loedding and the Great Flying Saucer Wave is
>available. Cost is $21.95 post paid domestically and $27.00
>Foreign orders from: Wendy Connors, P.O. Box 8552, Albuquerque,
>New Mexico 87198. We are almost out of copies, so orders should
>be sent asap. We have not made a decision on whether to reprint
>at this time.

I shall order a copy when I've been paid!






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 28

                    Re: 200 Questions-Remember Bennewitz!

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 05:55:50 -0600
Fwd Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 11:14:57 -0500
Subject: Re: 200 Questions-Remember Bennewitz!


>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: 200 Questions-Remember Bennewitz!
>From: Roger R. Prokic <rprokic@earthlink.net>
>Date: Wed,  27 Jan 1999 18:41

>>Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 15:09:40 +1100
>>To: updates@globalserve.net
>>From: Mike Farrell <mikefarr@midcoast.com.au>
>>Subject: 200 Questions-Remember Bennewitz!

>>The fact is, Richard Hoagland single-handedly drove home the
>>point that NASA does indeed deserve it's acronym "Never A
>>Straight Answer". And if you want to argue that point, it still
>>doesn't dismiss the fact that public perception of such agencies
>>is sorely lacking in Trust and Confidence. We all know that
>>where's there's smoke, there's usually fire! NASA has not been
>>completely honest and responsive to the citizens that began and
>>still pay for it's missions. Most NASA activity is now
>>classified military priorities.

>It's a shame that I have to reply to your Hoagland-like
>mentality.  I don't understand why you say NASA means "Never A
>Straight Answer".  Give me some examples!

The disappearance of live video feeds after STS-48?

<snipped, with _respect_ to Mr Prokic, a distracting appeal to
authority indicating an unsupported 'inside' knowledge based on
an, at best and likely, superficial relationship. I myself had a
similar relationship with the government for over two decades
involving cutting edge aviation subjects and hardware, and never
so much as heard a vauge 'bupkus' regarding what we _all_ found
out later to be so, or what was really going on>

Trying hard _not_ to be a conspiracy nut, I still think we do
ourselves a disservice to employ a philosophy, ludicrously
appealing, that there is no conspiracy at all! Never A Straight
Answer seems the time honored policy of _any_ bureaucracy, and
is only _gently_ chiding to an administration as close to the
_obviously_ twitchy stuff as NASA is. I think it likely that
most are guilty of far more than we blithely suspect. Besides, I
am suspicious of, and on my guard against blind 'worship' for
any institution that seems, with every breath, to be
demonstrating the opposite of what's required for _this_
taxpayer's appreciation!

Lehmberg@snowhill.com

--
Explore the Alien View!
Ponder the Wit & Wisdom of Ching Chow!

http://www.fortunecity.com/roswell/arecibo/46/

<Updated 18 January>

John Ford Restoration Fund -- Send your checks and
money orders to _me_, Alfred Lehmberg
(cut out the lawyers, they got their's) at:
304 Melbourne Drive, Enterprise AL, 36330. Strict records kept.

"Only thin, _very light_ envelopes with a return address will be
accepted <g>." ~~~ $225.00 pledged -- $125.00 collected ~~~

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see from
afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, while burning at the
fundamentalist's stake.





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 28

                 MJ-12 documents & The Norfolk Regiment Tale

From: William Chalker <bchalker@ozemail.com.au>
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 23:10:10 -0800
Fwd Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 11:19:35 -0500
Subject: MJ-12 documents & The Norfolk Regiment Tale


I am following the discussion about the new "MJ12" documents
with interest and I hope that the debate about them can remain
intelligent and directed towards determining the legitimacy of
the material. Already there are significant efforts underway at
determining their validity.  The Woods team have indicated some
interesting information.  Others following the publication of
the documentation and discussion of these efforts to date have
expressed concern.

While the material is intriguing, the manner in which they
surfaced surely begs extreme caution and careful discussion and
reasoned debate.  The experience with the original MJ12 material
from 1987 suggests that the reality will be far different and a
lot of valuable effort will be consumed in overly passionate
debate about the pros & cons of the debate.

I hope cooler heads will prevail, but given the less critical
elements of the ufological movement in recent years and their
capacity to accept everything without much question, I'm a
little pessimistic.

I don't profess to have examined the documents in a great deal
of depth and I'll leave that up to those with greater resources
than mine, but the presence of the Norfolk story is to my mind
particularly troubling and suggestive of an authorship of the
Ist Annual report of MJ12 as post 1965 and not the circa 1954 as
suggested by the document.  The account described in the MJ12
document of the alleged Norfolk 1915 incident is in fact
consistent with the version that first appeared in 1965 with the
statement from ANZAC veterans describing their experience.  The
1965 account, much repeated many times since then in the UFO
literature, got the Regiment wrong.  The MJ12 document states
the same error and uses the same language as the 1965 statement.
Contemporary documenation circa 1919 etc describes a lesser  but
more tragic mystery with the correct regiment.  If the document
was authentically from circa 1954 it would be expected to more
consistent with contemporary 1915-1919 documentation,
particularly official documentation.

I would be certainly interested in how those working closely on
authenticating these documents reconcile this apparent problem.
If it cannot be reconciled the implication is that the Ist
Annual report of MJ12 was written after 1965 and not around 1954
as implied, and by implication is a fabrication.

Paul Begg has documented his detail investigations of the 1915
Norfolk saga in his book "Into Thin Air".  Murray Bott of NZ has
circulated some of the orginal 1965 New Zealand material.

Regards,

Bill Chalker
UFOIC (UFO INVESTIGATION CENTRE)
P.O. Box W42,
West Pennant Hills,
NSW, 2125, AUSTRALIA.

Voice: (Sydney) (02) 9484 4680





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 28

                  Re: Deficiency In SETI's Drake's Equation

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 06:12:45 -0600
Fwd Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 11:22:35 -0500
Subject: Re: Deficiency In SETI's Drake's Equation


>Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 17:01:51 -0800 (PST)
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj@proaxis.com>
>Subject: Deficiency In SETI's Drake's Equation

>Have any of you sometimes wondered if there is any way we could
>cause a few SETI scientists to open their minds a bit, so as to
>include searching for any ETI who would be aware of our
>existence and perhaps interacting with us? I recently tried this
>using SETI's favorite Drake equation as the vehicle. Sometimes
>you can gain a scientist's attention if you point out an
>inconsistency in a favorite equation they use. And it helps if
>you can feed in even one simple equation of your own. So that
>was my approach. However, it's been nearly a week now and I
>haven't heard back from any SETI person. But maybe that was due
>to my finding no e-mail address to use other than
><info@set-inst.edu>mentioned in SETI's website. If you should
>know of a more relevant SETI e-mail address I could send it to,
>please let me know.


<snipped interesting and, I'll bet, likely embellishment on the Drake
equation>

I'm not surprised you never heard from anyone. Your idea
regarding the equation points in the shadows of the other 98%
that science refuses to consider or quantify because it doesn't
predictably repeat, isn't observable, or is not in line with a
comfortable theory or conveniently conceived paradigm <g>.

Lehmberg@snowhill.com

--
Explore the Alien View!
Ponder the Wit & Wisdom of Ching Chow!

http://www.fortunecity.com/roswell/arecibo/46/

<Updated 18 January>

John Ford Restoration Fund -- Send your checks and
money orders to _me_, Alfred Lehmberg
(cut out the lawyers, they got their's) at:
304 Melbourne Drive, Enterprise AL, 36330. Strict records kept.

"Only thin, _very light_ envelopes with a return address will be
accepted <g>." ~~~ $225.00 pledged -- $125.00 collected ~~~

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see from
afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, while burning at the
fundamentalist's stake.








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 28

                Re: Santilli Knew 'Tent Footage' Was a Fraud?

From: Bob Shell <bob@bobshell.com>
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 07:54:02 +0000
Fwd Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 11:26:23 -0500
Subject: Re: Santilli Knew 'Tent Footage' Was a Fraud?


>Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 11:18:29 -0500
>From: Joachim Koch <AchimKoch@compuserve.com>
>Subject: Re: Santilli Knew 'Tent Footage' Was a Fraud?
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>

>Hi Bob,

>please try to answer my questions regarding the above quote.

>1.) Did you attend this deal of M. Hesemann with the Lady? If
>not, who told you about this? Do you know the Lady? Who is she?

No, I was not present during the deal, and do not know who the
lady is.  Mike Hesemann told me about it.  He said her husband
had come home one day with the film, put it in the closet, and
told her never to do anything with it as long as he was alive.
He told her that it proved what crashed was not a weather
balloon.

>2.) "...Unfortunately, Mike gave it to Ray for processing,..."
>Could you please give me a kind of timetable for this? When did
>the "unfortunate giving of the material" happen?

I don't know.  I think this all happened in 1995, but may be
wrong.  I did not consider it all that important when it
happened.

>3.) What did M. Hesemann do  to get back the missing parts of
>"his" film scraps? Did he start a lawsuit against Santilli?

Ask Mike about that.  I don't know what, if anything, he did.

>Bob, I would appreciate very much if you would answer this.

>Because: M. Hesemann still distributes(promotes)a video of the
>"Alien Autopsy" here in Germany claiming that the video shows
>the pictures as they came down from the reels of the original
>film without any cut, reel by reel. Of course, without the
>tent footage.

>We have definite proof by the expertise of a reliable film
>producer from Munich, Bavaria, that this claim is not true.
>His expertise shows clearly, that the video consists of scraps
>of videos because the fading in and out, shown several times,
>is hoaxed while on the other hand some abrupt changes of the
>scene as they happen from time to time could never have done
>in this way by a film camera.

I don't know who your film producer is from Bavaria, but it
sounds to me  like he has been to one Oktoberfest too many.

This is pure nonsense, and you can quote me on it.

There is nothing in this film footage inconsistent with the
original having been shot on a 16 mm camera, and many
indications that it was.

>If this video,which M.Hesemann offers to the public,
>is only a copy of Santilli's video then this would imply that
>the whole thing was done on video in first place - and everyone
>who's telling stories about "original film reels/canisters)"
>must be asked: Have you seen them?

>The story of a canister of unprocessed film (so I don't know
>what it is - maybe nothing) bought from "a Lady", handed over to
>a Mr. Santilli (why to Santilli in England and why not to Mr.
>Illobrand v. Ludwiger to MUFON-CES or to G.E.P. here in
>Germany?) without doing anything to secure the whole thing
>(imagine: it is supposed to be material about the crash site
>from Roswell!)and getting back not the same what once was
>delivered but continue to promote video material from the same
>man - sorry - this stinks to heaven (as we say here in Germany)!

Again, don't ask me, ask Mike.

>By the way, I forgot to ask you: do you know anyone who ever has
>seen the whole (claimed) amount of reels?

Yes, Ray Santilli, Gary Shoefield, Maria O'Neill, etc.

But no one outside of Santilli's circle.

Bob






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 28

                Re: Santilli Knew 'Tent Footage' Was a Fraud?

From: Bob Shell <bob@bobshell.com>
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 07:58:48 +0000
Fwd Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 11:28:25 -0500
Subject: Re: Santilli Knew 'Tent Footage' Was a Fraud?


>Perhaps Bob can explain. Do you have camera original or not?

>For the record, any film that can be printed can be transfered
>on a Rank Cintel. Both processes use 'roller transport' for
>moving the film. In fact, the Rank is more gentle than a film
>printer since the Rank needs no "teeth" to align the film. There
>would be no need to transfer "one frame at a time" under any
>circumstance.

>Thanks for the info, James. Considering the research you've
>done, perhaps you could put together a simplified time line
>contrasting what Santilli says happened against what you think
>really happened.


For the record, I do not now have, have never had, nor ever seen
any camera original film in this incident.

The film delivered by the cameraman to Santilli is old copy
film, in very bad shape.  This was copied onto another 16 mm
film to assemble the broken strips.  Some of the film had both
edges rotted off so had to be copied frame by frame, I was told.

The video was made from this new 16mm dupe.

Bob






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 28

                         Re: Santilli's Film Scraps

From: Bob Shell  <bob@bobshell.com>
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 08:07:05 +0000
Fwd Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 11:31:15 -0500
Subject: Re: Santilli's Film Scraps


>Below is a comment from Dr. Roger Leir to your (Steven's) UFO
>UpDates post. It mentions Ray Santilli's reply to the NFB
>findings on the film scraps.

>  Interesting, I did not know he had given film to others.
>  He sent me a direct e-mail in which he said he did not
>  believe the report we sent him. Well that's okay. He can
>  never complain that we weren't true to our word.
>  Roger

>Nick Balaskas


This doesn't make any sense!  Roger certainly knew that
Ray had given film to me, to Philip Mantle, to John Purdy,
etc.  I showed Roger my film samples in North Carolina at
the MUFON conference several years ago.

It appears that Ray has given Roger additional material
beyond what came from Philip, since the material mentioned
above is definitely from the "junk reel" Ray mentioned in
the past.

Ray doesn't want to acknowledge that he does not have, and
has never had, any camera original film, just the copy
print material foisted off on him by the cameraman (who
apparently told him it was camera original material).

This accounts for the biggest discrepancy in the cameraman's
tale, how he could make off with all this film without
anyone noticing.  I speculated several years ago that he
had, in fact, made an unauthorized copy prior to shipping
the original film off to Washington.  This is what he
sold to Ray, and Ray was duped into thinking he had the
original material.

This could also account for Capt. McAndrew's comment to me
that he had seen the same film in Air Force archives.

Bob





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 28

               Re: Missing CIA Documents on www.foia.ucia.gov

From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 07:06:54 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 11:34:08 -0500
Subject: Re: Missing CIA Documents on www.foia.ucia.gov


>From: Ed Fouche <fouche@connecti.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Missing CIA Documents on www.foia.ucia.gov
>Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 23:28:45 -0600

>Dear List:

>I was visiting the CIA's Freedom of Information Act Web Page
>doing some research on Released UFO documents.  To my surprise,
>not one of the 50 documents I tried to open worked.  I also
>noticed dozens of "Deleted" files.

>I also searched >UFO< and none of the documents came up?

>Anyone have any information on what's going on?
>
>
>CIA FOIA WEB PAGE: http://www.foia.ucia.gov/frame2.htm

Ed-

I wish the CIA had followed the lead of other agencies and used
the .pdf format for their documents, but they chose to use CGI
scripting to spoon feed the data in graphic format.

I submitted an FOIA request for all UFO related material that
they have posted to the web site and obtained more than 900
pages of documents.  I'm working with FUFOR to organize those
documents so they can be distributed on CD-ROM, but that work is
just beginning and I have no target date for a release.

In the meantime, I would keep trying their site.  I got the same
errors when I first tried to access the information and the next
day it worked fine.  I believe the problem relates to their
server and is an intermittant problem.

Steve






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 28

                Re: Santilli Knew 'Tent Footage' Was a Fraud?

From: Rob Irving <RobIrving@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 09:14:30 EST
Fwd Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 11:36:53 -0500
Subject: Re: Santilli Knew 'Tent Footage' Was a Fraud?


>Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 23:08:01 -0500
>From: James Easton <pulsar@compuserve.com>
>Subject: Re: Santilli Knew 'Tent Footage' Was a Fraud?
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>

James,

>One obvious problem was the absence of conclusive evidence,
>although no preceding claims of 'non-terrestrial contact' had
>provided this!

<snip>

>Are there any preceding or subsequent cases which,
>comparatively, come close to providing so much scientifically
>grounded substantiation?

>Overall, surely enough to merit consideration as 'best evidence'
>ever.

>You won't see it in the top 10...20...30... though!

>Why is that?

Interesting question. It seems to me that in the ET-school of
ufology, the reason hokey evidence is allowed to co-exist so
contentedly with more likely evidence is because as soon as the
evidence becomes too interesting to ignore the subject will be
appropriated by institutional science and better minds than are
currently available to it. A disaster for some.

The rejection of this 'best evidence' (by believers, anyway), I
think, emerged from a genuine fear that it was real. If it were
real, a lot of self-conferred authorities, pseudoscientists and
hucksters would be trampled in the rush for understanding.

Rob





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 28

              Re: 1999 UFO Alien Abduction Conference Announced

From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 09:13:13 EST
Fwd Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 11:39:39 -0500
Subject: Re: 1999 UFO Alien Abduction Conference Announced


>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
>Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 20:32:36 EST
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: 1999 UFO Alien Abduction Conference Announced


>Dear Kevin Randle and List...

>Regarding your views on the upcoming UFO conference by the
>Intruders Foundation....

>A little surprised to read your comments here and on UASR, Kevin.
>Even Gripple won't use these bitter grapes for our fresh wine.

Sour grapes? I was merely making an observation about the nature
of the conference that I thought should be made.

>Isn't there enough room in ufology for differing points of view?
>And isn't there sufficient venue for an organization to present
>their side of the issue, without having to invite everyone with
>a varying perspective?  Cripes Kevin, they would need a room the
>size of Yankee Stadium for all the dissenters.

Yes, there is room for differing points of view. That was what I
was trying to point out. There are differing points of view.

>I opened with an opine, "A little surprised!"  Actually, I am
>more than a little surprised and more than a lot disappointed.
>Because this to me, is just one more example of the division
>which intrudes on the research.  It is an oxymoron as well.

So, if I read this correctly, only research that agrees with
your point of view is of value and that which does not is "just
one more example of the division which intrudes on research."

>This is a strange and wonderful business, this UFO research....
>is it not? I'm strange and you're wonderful, but only because
>our points of view differ. Otherwise we're both wonderful, eh?

>Nuts and sour grapes make up your menu.  Mine has a steady diet
>of gruel. But I'm regular as rain in London and, I can live
with >myself and my points >of view.  Can you?

Of course I can live with my point of view. But don't I have the
right to suggest that the make up of the conference is
advocating a point of view and that alternative points of view
are out there? Can't I suggest that alien abduction is not an
established fact without having it suggested that "nuts and sour
grapes make up your menu"?

I expected negative responses but this sort is not what I
expected.

KRandle






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 28

              Re: 1999 UFO Alien Abduction Conference Announced

From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 09:28:07 +0000
Fwd Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 11:42:28 -0500
Subject: Re: 1999 UFO Alien Abduction Conference Announced


Re: 1999 UFO Alien Abduction Conference Announced

>From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net>
>Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 00:47:18 -0500
>Fwd Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 06:19:32 -0500
>Subject: Re: 1999 UFO Alien Abduction Conference Announced

>>From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
>>Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 22:23:11 EST
>>To: updates@globalserve.net
>>Subject: Re: 1999 UFO Alien Abduction Conference Announced

Previously, John had written:

>The truth of the situation is this:

>A. Greg Sandow called me and told me of your interest/offer to
>participate in the conference. We both thought it was a
>_great_idea_ and we thought it would lend 'balance' and
>alternative points of view to the presentation.

>B. We both brought it up at the very next business meeting.
>Not only did we bring it up, _we_pitched_it_ because we both
>felt you would be a good addition.

>C. The _only_ reasons it was rejected are the following:

>1. We had _already_ invited Dave Jacobs, Stanton Friedman and
>Jerry Clark. (Stan and Jerry need to be flown in.)

>2. We are working on a shoestring and we _couldn't_afford_ to
>fly in a third speaker!

>Period!

>Are you suggesting a conspiracy or an attempt to keep you out
>because of your views? _Nothing_ is farther from the truth. You
>are welcome to verify any of what I have said here with either
>Greg Sandow or Budd Hopkins.

>If _any_ of the prior commitments hadn't already been made, Greg
>and I were prepared to argue for your inclusion but we can't
>afford to bring you in as well.

>That's the truth.

Hi John,

If Kevin Randle were to fly himself in, would he be welcome to
address the conference? Certainly there should be a little time
available.

Just a thought...

Roger Evans






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 28

                Re: Santilli Knew 'Tent Footage' Was a Fraud?

From: Bob Shell <bob@bobshell.com>
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 09:17:09 +0000
Fwd Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 11:43:22 -0500
Subject: Re: Santilli Knew 'Tent Footage' Was a Fraud?


----------
>From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>To: "UFO UpDates Subscribers":;
>Subject: UFO UpDate: Re: Santilli Knew 'Tent Footage' Was a Fraud?
>Date: Thu, Jan 28, 1999, 10:29 AM
>

>Was there anything usable (that Santilli didn't keep!) <G>
>
>Later,
>
>Roger Evans


No.  What Mike got back was just the blank unexposed part of the film.

Bummer.

Bob





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 28

              Re: 1999 UFO Alien Abduction Conference Announced

From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 09:36:22 EST
Fwd Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 11:48:56 -0500
Subject: Re: 1999 UFO Alien Abduction Conference Announced


>Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 18:28:54 -0800 (PST)
>From: Rebecca Keith <xiannekei@yahoo.com>
>Subject: Re: 1999 UFO Alien Abduction Conference Announced
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>

> Kevin,

> I would be most interested in hearing more about the new
> research and alternative explanations. When is the book coming
> out?

Late April. It's called 'The Abduction Enigma'.

>What is the specialty of Dr. William Cone? Is he an MD or PhD?

Dr. Cone is a psychologist with more than twenty years of
experience as a clinician. He serves of the staff of several
hospitals and has conducted a great deal of research into the
abduction phenomena.

>Perhaps you could share some highlights of the new research
>with this list.

This is the most difficult of the questions because much of the
new research is somewhat complicated and without a proper
foundation is going to sound extreme or will be rejected out of
hand. (Note to myself: Now I sound like Gary, though the
difference is, the book has been accepted by a publisher and if
they maintain the schedule, it will be available to all soon.)

It does contain a lengthy discussion of hypnosis as an
investigative tool, suggesting many of the pitfalls of
hypnotically recovered testimony. The suggestibility of the
subject, for example, is something that we, as researchers, do
not seem to fully understand. What we see as a simple question
to gather more, and sometimes obscured, information, could be a
"demand" for information that the subject simply doesn't have.
To continue to probe for that information can induce a point
where the subject "invents" that information to satisfy the
researcher.

This is why some states now prohibit witnesses who have been
hypnotized (questioned under hypnosis about the crime) from
testifying. It is simply too easy to implant information even by
the most careful of questioners.

There is also a section that expands on my MUFON presentation of
a couple of year ago. In that, I suggested that pop culture has
included all the elements of alien abduction. If we look to
science fiction, we can find everything we find in alien
abduction repeatedly. Some of the more recent of the abduction
scenarios, such as the suggestion of genetic engineering and
manipulation are rare but they do exist.  The 1960s movie,
'Village Of The Damned', based on an earlier book, 'The Midwich
Cuckoos'* suggested the abduction of women for the purpose of
creating a genetic hybrid, for example, is out there. We simply
cannot dismiss these parallels, but must be able to account for
them.

I'll try to add more about this later, but the entire context of
the book is needed to understand some of the points of view.

KRandle

*A cuckoo is a bird that lays its eggs in another's nest so that
bird with incubate and care for its young. The title refers to
this and is not suggesting that those with contrary beliefs are
"cuckoo."







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 28

              Re: 1999 UFO Alien Abduction Conference Announced

From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 09:40:55 EST
Fwd Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 11:51:54 -0500
Subject: Re: 1999 UFO Alien Abduction Conference Announced


>Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 00:47:18 -0500
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net>
>Subject: Re: 1999 UFO Alien Abduction Conference Announced

<snip>


>Hello Kevin, hi All,

>The truth of the situation is this:

>A. Greg Sandow called me and told me of your interest/offer to
>participate in the conference. We both thought it was a
>_great_idea_ and we thought it would lend 'balance' and
>alternative points of view to the presentation.

>B. We both brought it up at the very next business meeting.
>Not only did we bring it up, _we_pitched_it_ because we both
>felt you would be a good addition.

I certainly appreciated this.

>C. The _only_ reasons it was rejected are the following:

>1. We had _already_ invited Dave Jacobs, Stanton Friedman and
>Jerry Clark. (Stan and Jerry need to be flown in.)

>2. We are working on a shoestring and we _couldn't_afford_ to
>fly in a third speaker!

>Period!

>Are you suggesting a conspiracy or an attempt to keep you out
>because of your views? _Nothing_ is farther from the truth. You
>are welcome to verify any of what I have said here with either
>Greg Sandow or Budd Hopkins.

Nope. I was attempting to make the simple point that not all
points of view will be covered. That's all.

>If _any_ of the prior commitments hadn't already been made,
Greg >and I were prepared to argue for your inclusion but we
can't >afford to bring you in as well.

Again, I appreciate that.

KRandle






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 28

                    Re: 200 Questions-Remember Bennewitz!

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 10:12:04 EST
Fwd Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 11:56:23 -0500
Subject: Re: 200 Questions-Remember Bennewitz!


> To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: 200 Questions-Remember Bennewitz!
>From: Roger R. Prokic <rprokic@earthlink.net>
>Date: Wed,  27 Jan 1999 18:41

>>Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 15:09:40 +1100
>>To: updates@globalserve.net
>>From: Mike Farrell <mikefarr@midcoast.com.au>
>>Subject: 200 Questions-Remember Bennewitz!

>>The fact is, Richard Hoagland single-handedly drove home the
>>point that NASA does indeed deserve it's acronym "Never A
>>Straight Answer". And if you want to argue that point, it still
>>doesn't dismiss the fact that public perception of such agencies
>>is sorely lacking in Trust and Confidence. We all know that
>>where's there's smoke, there's usually fire! NASA has not been
>>completely honest and responsive to the citizens that began and
>>still pay for it's missions. Most NASA activity is now
>>classified military priorities.

>It's a shame that I have to reply to your Hoagland-like
>mentality.  I don't understand why you say NASA means "Never A
>Straight Answer".  Give me some examples!

>Also, there's not one cent of the NASA budget that is
>appropriated as "classified military priorities".  Not one cent!
>If you want to know where the NASA budget goes, the information
>is easily available - and not a black budget!  The money goes
>to:  International Space Station, Space Shuttle, Mars Surveyor
>Program, Discovery programs, New Millenium programs, EOS,
>Astrobiology, etc.

>I have worked for NASA for 10 years, and now as a contractor for
>3 years.  I am an insider.  I know the truth. <g>

I've been reading the mail on the subject of NASA for months now
and finally see my way clear to a comment or two.  I had been
associated with NASA since 1966 and thru about 1988 or so.  My
association was as an employee of contractors as well as
consultative.  I always look for that black buck, as I like to
call it.  I never found one. Not there.

Nor did I ever see even a hint of cover-up.  Not to say it does
not exist, just that old snoopy drawers (me) never picked up on
anything even remotely resembling NASA holding out.... it is
just not their charter. It isn't their style either.  That
insult belongs to the military.

In my opinion at least, too much credit is given them for
holding out, although I am sure they (the military) have held
out substantially, we assign them more credit and brains than
they deserve.

What programs?  Mostly unmanned exploratory stable platforms for
astronomical spacecraft and some manned missions... I was the
one that used to enjoy getting VIP's sick on the simulated Lunar
Rover in that radar dome at Gremlin Airtrash.  One VIP actually
launched his lunch vector style right onto the moving belt
simulating the lunar surface.  You know, the one that covers a
hollow globe with a SAAB two stroker inside for mobility?

Gesendt





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 28

              Re: 1999 UFO Alien Abduction Conference Announced

From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 09:46:07 EST
Fwd Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 12:00:37 -0500
Subject: Re: 1999 UFO Alien Abduction Conference Announced


>From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: 1999 UFO Alien Abduction Conference Announced
>Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 23:27:29 -0500

<snip>

>Kevin,

>You made your offer directly to me, and I was sympathetic to
>having you appear. Others weren't. I see the point you're making
>now, and I can see how it's reasonable to you.

Thanks. Many don't seem to understand that point.

>On the other hand, this conference isn't meant as the last word
>in scientific discussion of abductions, and in fact isn't meant
>to be a conference in the scientific sense of the word, as the
>abduction conference at MIT was. It's a presentation of certain
>views to the public, and can be as opinionated as it wants.

Absolutely, but let's be honest in the promotion of that point
of view. The organizers have the right to invite whomever they
please, and to exclude whomever they please. And they can be as
opinionated as they please. I was merely attempting to suggest
that this conference will lack a certain balance.

>In any case, Jerry Clark will be making a presentation, and he's
>far from a hard-core abduction believer. We can count on him to
>summarize a good balance of views, both pro and con. In fact, as
>the moderator of the conference, I'll insist on it.

Who could ask for more? No, I'm not being sarcastic here, I mean
that.

>If you'd like to formulate a question for me to ask the
>participants in the final panel discussion, I'll be happy to
>consider asking it. I'm also looking forward to reading your
>book.

I may send along a question or two. Thanks again.

KRandle







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 28

                  Re: Deficiency In SETI's Drake's Equation

From: Ed Stewart <ufoindex@jps.net>
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 07:23:19 -0800
Fwd Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 12:03:29 -0500
Subject: Re: Deficiency In SETI's Drake's Equation


>Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 17:01:51 -0800 (PST)
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj@proaxis.com>
>Subject: Deficiency In SETI's Drake's Equation

>Have any of you sometimes wondered if there is any way we could
>cause a few SETI scientists to open their minds a bit, so as to
>include searching for any ETI who would be aware of our
>existence and perhaps interacting with us?

Why don't you join the SETI mailing list? There are many SETI
scientists on the list.

Just send an email to MajorDomo@sni.net with the following in
the body of the message:

subscribe seti your_email_address

After you are accepted, I am sure they will be more than pleased
to hear of your brilliant suggestions and deal with them
appropriately.

Be prepared to be educated.

<snip>

>James W. Deardorff
>Research Professor Emeritus
>Oregon State University

Ed Stewart
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ed Stewart ufoindex@jps.net|So Man, who here seems principal alone,
There Is Something         |Perhaps acts second to some sphere unknown.
   Going On!       ,>'?'<, |Touches some wheel, or verges to some goal,
Salvador Freixedo  ( O O ) |'Tis but a part we see, and not a whole.
----------------ooOO-(_)-OOoo------- Alexander Pope, Essay on Man -----





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 28

                                UHR on MJ-12

From: Jan Aldrich <jan@cyberzone.net>
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 10:16:17 -0800
Fwd Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 12:11:44 -0500
Subject: UHR on MJ-12


An advanced copy of Barry Greenwood's article on MJ-12 just
arrived. Barry has allowed a quote:

"Curiously, the Woods, in their 1998 speech, raise the most
question about the (1952 Eisenhower) Briefing Paper (not one of
their Cooper releases but the 1987 release). They say, 'it seems
reasonable to conjecture that the Eisenhower Briefing Document
might have been a cleverly crafted piece of disinformation aimed
at the Soviets, and therefore the only document presented here
that is 'not entirely genuine', even though it contains much
that is precisely true.'"

"Yet the Briefing was wholeheartedly endorsed as genuine by the
original team of researchers, Moore, Shandera, and Friedman, and
still is by Friedman. Whose years-long, professional detailed
analysis is correct? Or might we create a new category of
document authenticity: the falsely genuine!"

In perusing chapter 8 of Friedman's book, TOP SECRET/MAJIC, we
find that Timothy Cooper supplied Friedman with copies of
several new MJ-12 documents a number of years ago, including a
February 1948 "Memorandum for the President" by Roscoe
Hillenkoetter, a September 25, 1947 memo to President Truman
from General George Marshall and a July 9, 1947 Turman to
Twining memo. The later two were included in the Woods' document
package presented at Omega [The Omega Conference in
Connecticut], and called genuine. Friedman appeared to be
noncommitted to those documents, but he was clearly not
impressed with the 1948 document, saying that it was 'really a
doctored version of a memo that would have been sent to
President Roosevelt during World War 2.'

"This document was one of the first sent to Friedman by Cooper,
the same as the Woods' papers. Yet the 1948 document was not
included in the Woods' analysis. Why? They can't claim ignorance
of it because it was quoted in Freedman's 1996 book, in the
midst of the Woods' years-long investigation. Did they not want
the public to know that some the supply from Cooper/Cantwheel
were transparent fakes that couldn't make the cut. Some of the
supply? Yes, there were other problem papers."

"Friedman alluded to 'another bunch of documents' from Tim
Cooper (TOP SECRET/MAJIC, pgs 158-9) condemning one September
27, 1947 document as an outright fraud, and adding that 'several
other items were retyped and slightly changed versions of old
memos and letters.' Neither were these Cooper/Cantwheel
documents dealt with in the Woods' analysis. Why?

"Smells like a cover-up to me!"

--
Jan Aldrich
Project 1947
http://www.iufog.org/project1947/
P. O. Box 391, Canterbury, CT 06331, USA
Telephone: (860) 546-9135

PS In my last correction I just substituted one horror for
another.

>The origin of the documents cannot not be established.
>What's to say rather than chronicles of real events created
>in some government office, they are the work of people in
>trying fool someone.

Perhaps this is better:

The origin of the documents cannot be established. Rather than
chronicles of real events created in government offices; they
could be forgeries created by hoaxers wishing to fool people.






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 28

              Re: 1999 UFO Alien Abduction Conference Announced

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 99 10:43:04 PST
Fwd Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 12:14:44 -0500
Subject: Re: 1999 UFO Alien Abduction Conference Announced


>From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
>Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 00:46:33 EST
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Re: 1999 UFO Alien Abduction Conference Announced

>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
>>Subject: Re: 1999 UFO Alien Abduction Conference Announced
>>Date: Wed, 27 Jan 99 11:29:24 PST

>>>From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
>>>Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 22:23:11 EST
>>>To: updates@globalserve.net
>>>Subject: Re: 1999 UFO Alien Abduction Conference Announced

>>>>From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@get2net.dk>
>>>>Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 02:02:26 +0100 (MET)
>>>>Subject: 1999 UFO Alien Abduction Conference Announced
>>>>To: updates@globalserve.net

>>>>Source: "alt.ufo.reports".

><snip>

>>Second of all, unless you are claiming telepathic powers, I
>>don't think you know what I'm going to say, and I resent the
>>implication that I am involved in some sort of misleading
>>propaganda effort.

>I didn't claim telepathic powers. Instead, I suggested, based
>on the past history of those speakers, that a certain point of
>view will be in evidence. Are you suggesting that there will be
>a contrary point of view? Are you suggesting that you are going
>to suggest that some abductions might be the result of well
>established psychological pathologies? Are you going to suggest
>that some abductees might have invented their tales for the
>attention that it brings them?

For crissake, Kevin. Since clearly you can't be bothered to
learn my actual views before criticizing them, I am almost
tempted to respond sarcastically. Oh, what the hell, why not?

NO, Kevin. I believe that _no_ abductions "might be the result
of well established psychological pathologies." NO, Kevin, I
don't believe in the existence of hoaxes. I believe that
without exception, every single abduction story recounts
an actual instance of intervention by alien entities.

>Please note that I have not suggested that _all_ abductees have
>psychological problems or have invented their tales. I'm only
>suggesting that some do, a point that we, in the UFO community,
>are reluctant to mention.

I've got my serious hat again. I would sure like to know what
this last sentence means, other than that apparently you're not
reading the UFO literature much. For the past decade and a
half, ufologists have furiously debated the meaning,
significance, and nature of the abduction phenomenon. Some of
this debate, in case you haven't noticed, has taken place on
this very list. Many ufologists have argued for conventional or
quasiconventional psychological explanations for abduction
reports, and there has been a huge amount of discussion, a good
part of it highly critical, about the utility of hypnosis.
Ufologists have written entire books arguing skeptical views.
Therefore, your assertion that ufologists refuse to recognize
possible "psychological problems" of some abductees is simply as
unfounded as some of the critical attacks on the Roswell
incident that you have so eloquently refuted.

In point of fact, the "psychological problems" of some abductees
have been demonstrated empirically; see, for example, the crucial
paper by Rodeghier, Goodpaster, and Blatterbauer
("Psychosocial Characteristics of Abductees," JUFOS 3, 1991).
Have you read it?

Frankly, Kevin, given your evident ignorance of the history of
ufology's interaction with abduction phenomenon (not to mention
your ignorance of the views of individual ufologists such as the
undersigned), I am naturally concerned that your forthcoming
book will merely recycle arguments familiar to others if not to
you. The critical views themselves have been the subject of
vigorous criticism and controversy, much of it covered in the
pages of (for example) IUR and JUFOS (see, for example, Stuart
Appelle's "The Abduction Experience: A Critical Evaluation of
Theory and Evidence," JUFOS 6, 1995/1996, for a crash course on
the many different approaches and hypotheses that have figured
in ufologists' discussion of the phenomenon).

I hope that your book advances this discussion, but so far,
based on what you've said here, I see no reason to be wildly
optimistic.

Jerry Clark


P.S. Those of you who may be interested in my actual views on
the abduction phenomenon are referred to the discussions in The
UFO Encyclopedia, 2nd Ed., pp. 221-24, 388-90, and 841-43. I
think it is fair to say that where the phenomenon in general is
concerned, I am an agnostic. My views. in fact, are close to
those of Eddie Bullard and David Hufford.

I might add here, by the way, that the abduction phenomenon and
I go back a long way. I investigated my first case in the early
1970s.








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 28

                  Re: Deficiency In SETI's Drake's Equation

From: Ed Stewart <ufoindex@jps.net>
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 08:17:58 -0800
Fwd Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 12:18:01 -0500
Subject: Re: Deficiency In SETI's Drake's Equation


>Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 17:01:51 -0800 (PST)
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj@proaxis.com>
>Subject: Deficiency In SETI's Drake's Equation

>Have any of you sometimes wondered if there is any way we could
>cause a few SETI scientists to open their minds a bit, so as to
>include searching for any ETI who would be aware of our
>existence and perhaps interacting with us? I recently tried this
>using SETI's favorite Drake equation as the vehicle.

Have you ever heard of SETI in the optical spectrum?

Visit the following site:

http://www.coseti.org

Dr. Stuart Kingsley has been searching the optical spectrum for
quite sometime and making a case for optical SETI.

Also, in the science section of the New York Times the following
appeared on 1/26/99 as pasted to the SETI mailing list by Larry
Klaes:

>>>Here is the text of THE NEW YORK TIMES piece (in the quickest way I
>>>can send it) from the SCIENCE section of 26 January 1999:

>>>The Search for E.T.

>>>The search for extraterrestrial intelligence, or SETI, has usually
>>>involved the ears, not the eyes. Most such projects collect and
>>>analyze radio emissions from the heavens for patterns or other signs
>>>that may indicate an alien origin.

>>>There have always been a few diehards, however, who have argued that
>>>an otherworldly civilization may be just as likely to use light waves
>>>as a means of signaling their existence to the rest of the universe.

>>>In fact, some of these proponents argue, given Earth's technological
>>>history, an advanced civilization may be more likely to use a laser,
>>>say, than a more-primitive radio transmitter.

>>>Now, the Planetary Society, a nonprofit group that has long backed the
>>>hunt for alien life, is sponsoring three new optical SETI programs.
>>>Two projects -- one at the University of California at Berkeley, the
>>>other at the Harvard-Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics -- are
>>>looking for very brief light pulses from nearby Sun-like stars.

>>>The third project, also at Berkeley, is examining data from several
>>>observatories' searches for planets outside the solar system in the
>>>hope of finding a steady, extremely narrow-frequency beam of light.

Obviously, Professor Jim Deardoff's contention that SETI only looks for
radio waves was spoken from personal ignorance of what SETI programs do
and don't do.

Ed Stewart
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ed Stewart ufoindex@jps.net|So Man, who here seems principal alone,
There Is Something         |Perhaps acts second to some sphere unknown.
   Going On!       ,>'?'<, |Touches some wheel, or verges to some goal,
Salvador Freixedo  ( O O ) |'Tis but a part we see, and not a whole.
----------------ooOO-(_)-OOoo------- Alexander Pope, Essay on Man -------







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 28

                  Re: Deficiency In SETI's Drake's Equation

From: Ed Stewart <ufoindex@jps.net>
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 08:17:58 -0800
Fwd Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 12:21:20 -0500
Subject: Re: Deficiency In SETI's Drake's Equation


>Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 17:01:51 -0800 (PST)
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj@proaxis.com>
>Subject: Deficiency In SETI's Drake's Equation

>Have any of you sometimes wondered if there is any way we could
>cause a few SETI scientists to open their minds a bit, so as to
>include searching for any ETI who would be aware of our
>existence and perhaps interacting with us? I recently tried this
>using SETI's favorite Drake equation as the vehicle.

Have you ever heard of SETI in the optical spectrum?

Visit the following site:

http://www.coseti.org

Dr. Stuart Kingsley has been searching the optical spectrum for
quite sometime and making a case for optical SETI.

Also, in the science section of the New York Times the following
appeared on 1/26/99 as pasted to the SETI mailing list by Larry
Klaes:

>>>Here is the text of THE NEW YORK TIMES piece (in the quickest way I
>>>can send it) from the SCIENCE section of 26 January 1999:

>>>The Search for E.T.

>>>The search for extraterrestrial intelligence, or SETI, has usually
>>>involved the ears, not the eyes. Most such projects collect and
>>>analyze radio emissions from the heavens for patterns or other signs
>>>that may indicate an alien origin.

>>>There have always been a few diehards, however, who have argued that
>>>an otherworldly civilization may be just as likely to use light waves
>>>as a means of signaling their existence to the rest of the universe.

>>>In fact, some of these proponents argue, given Earth's technological
>>>history, an advanced civilization may be more likely to use a laser,
>>>say, than a more-primitive radio transmitter.

>>>Now, the Planetary Society, a nonprofit group that has long backed the
>>>hunt for alien life, is sponsoring three new optical SETI programs.
>>>Two projects -- one at the University of California at Berkeley, the
>>>other at the Harvard-Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics -- are
>>>looking for very brief light pulses from nearby Sun-like stars.

>>>The third project, also at Berkeley, is examining data from several
>>>observatories' searches for planets outside the solar system in the
>>>hope of finding a steady, extremely narrow-frequency beam of light.

Obviously, Professor Jim Deardoff's contention that SETI only looks for
radio waves was spoken from personal ignorance of what SETI programs do
and don't do.

Ed Stewart
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ed Stewart ufoindex@jps.net|So Man, who here seems principal alone,
There Is Something         |Perhaps acts second to some sphere unknown.
   Going On!       ,>'?'<, |Touches some wheel, or verges to some goal,
Salvador Freixedo  ( O O ) |'Tis but a part we see, and not a whole.
----------------ooOO-(_)-OOoo------- Alexander Pope, Essay on Man -------





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 28

               Re: Missing CIA Documents On www.foia.ucia.gov

From: Remo Ponti <rponti@geocities.com>
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 17:35:37 +0100
Fwd Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 12:25:24 -0500
Subject: Re: Missing CIA Documents On www.foia.ucia.gov


Ed Fouche wrote:

>was visiting the CIA's Freedom of Information Act Web Page
>doing some research on Released UFO documents.  To my surprise,
>not one of the 50 documents I tried to open worked.  I also
>noticed dozens of "Deleted" files.

Attention: the word "deleted" that appears in the heading of the
document means that the case number in the related CIA document
was censored before the release of the document (also the
witness names are deleted in these documents). I.e: If you open
the first document you'll find that the word after the word
"case" ha been deleted.

>I also searched >UFO< and none of the documents came up?
>Anyone have any information on what's going on?

I can open all the documents (from Italy!!!): maybe the errors
you got could be caused by a temporary connection problem. Pay
attention that some docs are very big!

>The headers it did return are:
>1. NEW DCD CASE (DELETED) - UFO RESEARCH Pub
>ate:April 2, 1976 Pages:0002

I've opened this document without problems.

Remo Ponti (CISU - Italy)






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 28

              Re: 1999 UFO Alien Abduction Conference Announced

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 12:33:52 EST
Fwd Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 12:40:57 -0500
Subject: Re: 1999 UFO Alien Abduction Conference Announced


>From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
>Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 09:13:13 EST
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Re: 1999 UFO Alien Abduction Conference Announced

>>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
>>Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 20:32:36 EST
>>To: updates@globalserve.net
>>Subject: 1999 UFO Alien Abduction Conference Announced

>>Dear Kevin Randle and List...

>>Regarding your views on the upcoming UFO conference by the
>>Intruders Foundation....

>>A little surprised to read your comments here and on UASR, Kevin.
>>Even Gripple won't use these bitter grapes for our fresh wine.

>Sour grapes? I was merely making an observation about the nature
>of the conference that I thought should be made.

>>Isn't there enough room in ufology for differing points of view?
>>And isn't there sufficient venue for an organization to present
>>their side of the issue, without having to invite everyone with
>>a varying perspective?  Cripes Kevin, they would need a room the
>>size of Yankee Stadium for all the dissenters.

>Yes, there is room for differing points of view. That was what I
>was trying to point out. There are differing points of view.

>>I opened with an opine, "A little surprised!"  Actually, I am
>>more than a little surprised and more than a lot disappointed.
>>Because this to me, is just one more example of the division
>>which intrudes on the research.  It is an oxymoron as well.

>So, if I read this correctly, only research that agrees with
>your point of view is of value and that which does not is "just
>one more example of the division which intrudes on research."

>>This is a strange and wonderful business, this UFO research....
>>is it not? I'm strange and you're wonderful, but only because
>>our points of view differ. Otherwise we're both wonderful, eh?

>>Nuts and sour grapes make up your menu.  Mine has a steady diet
>>of gruel. But I'm regular as rain in London and, I can live
>with >myself and my points >of view.  Can you?

>Of course I can live with my point of view. But don't I have the
>right to suggest that the make up of the conference is
>advocating a point of view and that alternative points of view
>are out there? Can't I suggest that alien abduction is not an
>established fact without having it suggested that "nuts and sour
>grapes make up your menu"?

>I expected negative responses but this sort is not what I
>expected.


Kevin, List, Leanne, entities lurking...

Kevin, not to belabor the points, but the reason for my surprise
is several-fold.  First, I read most if not all your
publications and feel they are worth the read.  Even enjoyed a
few.  However your words sounded to me as if they were Gripple
Country vine rejects.

IF that is incorrect, accept my appologies.  If it isn't, go
fish.  Just kidding, which is hard to do sometimes.  IF you've
been following all the threads here, I was murdered by the
Secret Government in 1969 or 1970.  But I can't prove that, see?
Makes sense only if you've been drinking.

Anyway, I have always been sensitive to my perception of vinegar
when it comes to people I admire and love.  In this case, having
had experiences (which have _not_ been verified by hypnosis,
because I wish to remember first and later, affirm with
hypnosis, when my courage allows it), having the perception of
the experience, I am more sensitve than an exposed nerve on a
molar.

Mia culpa.  But just for this one time.  Humble pie gives me
tummy aches.

Jim Mortellaro






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 28

                    Re: Taking the Heat Out Of 'The Heat'

From: Roy Hale <roy.hale@virgin.net>
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 17:09:03 -0000
Fwd Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 15:44:20 -0500
Subject: Re: Taking the Heat Out Of 'The Heat'


>Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 15:58:14 -0500
>From: Tony Spurrier <TSpurrier@compuserve.com>
>Subject: Re: Taking the Heat Out Of 'The Heat'
>To: updates@globalserve.net <updates@globalserve.net>

>>From: Roy Hale <roy.hale@virgin.net>
>>Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 17:11:38 -0000
>>Fwd Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 13:22:02 -0500
>>Subject: Taking the Heat Out Of 'The Heat'

>>Issue 5 "Down To Earth Magazine" out now, the Magazine for
>>todays ufologist =A32.00 per issue

>Roy

>You have a very interesting magazine but I have a query on the
>report entitled "Three sided mystery' apparently written by you
>which appeared in issue 2.

>In the report you state that two witnesses see a large flying
>triangle and then drive to Great Munden, Herts. You then state
>that the week that followed the deserted country lanes around
>Great Munden were closed for road works and state that this was
>a 'business like response' from the MOD. The query I have is
>that the road closures commenced on the 1st October 1997, and
>the large triangle was witnessed some 3 weeks earlier. This
>discrepancy alters the whole implication of your article, can
>you explain why this wasn't picked up during your investigation?

>Following the report you have included the 'Elufon comment'
>which was again by yourself. Do you comment on your own articles
>or was the original article written by someone else?

>In those comments you state "I can assure the reader that the
>military are aware of the Extra-Terrestrial Triangle and are
>tracking this craft whenever they get the chance". Have you got
>in your possesion government documents that back up your
>assurances, or was this purely your opinion?

Hi All,

Well it's good to see you back in action Tony after your little
break.

Now then, what was it you recently informed me of? Oh yes
"On-board encounters are happening here in the UK". Right' maybe
you could inform the whole list as to where and when these
events are taking place? I think most researchers especially
those who are very sceptical on ET visiting us would be thrilled
to learn that you have seen,  heard about  on board encounters.

Couple of questions for you:

1.) You told me that on-board encounters are happening in the
UK. Were you witness to these or is this just hearsay?

2.) Are you saying that you are in fact the person who is having
on-board encounters in the UK?

3.) Would you like to share with this list your evidence of on
board encounters in the UK?

4.) Are you therefore informing the UFO Research Community that
you know off individuals who are having on board encounters?

5.) On Board Encounters meaning? Perhaps you could explain what
these are?

6.) Seeming your sceptical nature of the FT's origin, could
these be Military on board encounters? Or does your training
enable you  to differentiate?

7.) Tony I wonder why you did not pick up on this so called
discrepancy when you posted it on the UFO Compuserve
Forum(1997)? This really is a great ploy that you keep using,
and well I and the rest of ELUFON do admire you for trying.
(Quote of the year 1998) "Never heard of it man"

I think you should address your question to the last editor of
the magazine who had editorial control, I think you know her
quite well, she if I remember also contributed to this article,
in fact I would say she had a lot to do with the article facts,
as it was her who had the sighting! Oops should I have said
that....... But like the good old chap that you are, I doubt if
we will ever hear the last of you, occasionally rambling on
about back issues of the magazine, which you read.....(I'm glad
it shows we are grabbing the attention of our readers!! Issue 5
out now, go buy it) ooh say about mid 97, and have suddenly
found fault with it, my god you do take some time to retrieve
your pigeon hole messages.......well you certainly stored this
one for a long time........what other exciting things are going
on in your life right now Tony?

Oh yes my humble opinion on our beloved Flying Triangle?
Documents you say, you want documents, you hear that
everyoneTony Spurrier wants evidence do you hear!!! He wants
evidence that the Flying Triangle is of ET origin. Firstly do
you think that the Government(S) would give me documents saying:

Dear Mr Roy Hale:UFO Researcher of the Century:

We are writing this letter to you today, because we at
theGoverment feel that you are the only UFO researcher in the
World who warrants this secret information. Which is the
following:

There is an Extraterrestrial Flying Triangle visiting the world
especially the UK. We hope that you will keep this information
tucked away for safe keeping, and we would hope that you will
never inform or show anyone else this letter. Doing so could
lead to you being given a heavy fine.

Yours Sincerely,

Government BOD 1.........DEPT: E.T. / F.T./U.F.O./For your eyes
only:

And yes I love commenting on my own articles I love it, because
it makes me feel good inside, and I re-read the comments over
and over and over again, and I keep saying to myself this is
great, how do I do it each other month, it's called "Love
thyself Therapy" you should try it, it really works.

Now if you dont mind I am going back to my REMOTE VIEWING to see
if I can work something out!!!

A poem for my friends:

THE OWL: {Judith Gallant}

Who is that? you ask,
He's the watcher of the wood
Silent,swift and deadly

Happy day's to all on the list......

Roy..







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 29

                  -=[For The Record]=- STS-80 NASA Footage

From: Skywatch International Inc. <skywatch@ltlb.com
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 04:55:29 -0600
Fwd Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 07:20:15 -0500
Subject: -=[For The Record]=- STS-80 NASA Footage


From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@hotmail.com>
Sent: Thursday, January 28, 1999 11:33 AM
To: encounters@confirmation.net
Subject: STS-80 NASA footage


Dear Sirs,

It has come to my attention that you will be airing footage from
the STS-80 shuttle Discovery from Dec 1, 1996.  This footage was
first recorded by my friend, John Maxfield of Sacremento, Calif.
He notfied me within days and sent me a copy of his VHS
recording from NASA Select Channel 22 in Sacremento.

I showed this footage to the public for the first time at the
UFO Congress in Laughlin, Nevada in January 1997.  John and I
arranged to send a copy to Village Labs and Dr. Jack Kasher for
analysis.  A segment was aired on Fox News in Phoenix in 1997,
but we never got a response to our request for analysis.

Eventually, I called Richard Hoagland who had hear about the
recording and we agreed to send a S-VHS copy to him for
analysis. We never got our analysis.  The next thing we knew, he
was advertising copies of this footage for sale.

I believe that when your program airs, John Maxfield will not be
acknowledged for what he attentively caught on tape in 1996.

Having been in UFO research for over 40 yeaars now, I know how
the trails get lost and wanted to set the record straight on how
this footage came to light.

Sincerely,


Bill Hamilton
Executive Director
Skywatch International, Inc.







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 29

                Re: A Little Virtue For A Maddening Situation

From: Leanne Martin <leanne_martin@hotmail.com>
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 16:21:29 PST
Fwd Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 07:24:22 -0500
Subject: Re: A Little Virtue For A Maddening Situation


>From: Scott Krause <SKrause272@aol.com>
>Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 00:48:53 EST
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: A Little Virtue For A Maddening Situation (R.A.M.S)


>(ebk- I know this is alittle of topic, but not far <g>)

>After posting for the second time to this list, I have finally
>got some fan mail. In this mail I was called "stupid" and a
>"fool". (don't worry Mr. Stephens, I won't tell them it was you
><g>) I guess it's true when they say it's good to feel loved
><g>. So I thought a little virtue from the "Teachings of
>Buddha" was in order:

>A fool who thinks that he is a fool is for that very reason a
>wise man. The fool who thinks that he is wise is called a fool
>indeed.

Gday Scott & List,

One more thing to note when dealing with this list:

"There's no fool like an old fool".

It comes in handy sometimes  <g>

Regards,

Leanne  ];-)






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 29

                 Re: Professional Status of Richard Hoagland

From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 18:23:27 -0600 (CST)
Fwd Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 07:27:54 -0500
Subject: Re: Professional Status of Richard Hoagland


>Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 10:44:30 -0800 (PST)
>From: Scott LeGrand <varelse@best.com>
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Professional Status of Richard Hoagland

>Well, Robert Stephens' 200 questions imply Mr. Hoagland never
>had any professional status.

>I can at least confirm that he once worked for 'Star and Sky'
>magazine.

>Harlan Ellison recounts a brief conversation with him at JPL in
>'An Edge in My Voice' - now avilable as the 2nd half of
>'Edgeworks 1', on page 39, while they both watch data come in
>from Voyager 1 as it reaches Saturn.
>
>

Scott,

I once went to JPL, donned an anti-static suit, entered the
clean room, and took pictures of the Hubble Telescope in its
infancy.

Eat your hearts out, List members!

My interviews and pictures from same subsequently appeared in
several publications.

Does that render my status professional, given that I was a
freelance writer at the time? I suppose it does in one sense.
But my point is that JPL has always had a PR department willing
to live up to its name.

Gaining an entree via same, however, doesn't necessarily render
you a space professional, NASA consultant, or anything else of
the sort. It simply means that you made a polite request, had
some publishing credentials to back up your claims, and were
consequently granted access to then ongoing projects and
personnel.

The professionalism in this instance was wholly JPL's. The
entire time I was there I couldn't keep from muttering to
myself, "Jeez, I can't believe they're letting me do this!" I
was actually straddling the HT, with the Galileo (Jupiter) probe
sitting next door.

Hate to eat up bandwidth, but if anyone's interested, I'd be
happy to upload a couple of pictures from my visit. Just don't
call me a JPL or NASA confidant, professional or critic, like
Hoagland. IMHO, the latter is a certifiable basket case who
either knows better or is completely delusional or totally
maniacal. Apart from anything Mr. Robert Stephens has to say
about the issue, one way or the other.

My two cents,

Dennis






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 29

              Re: 1999 UFO Alien Abduction Conference Announced

From: John <jvif@spacelab.net>
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 13:58:24 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 07:40:09 -0500
Subject: Re: 1999 UFO Alien Abduction Conference Announced


>From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
>Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 09:28:07 +0000
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: 1999 UFO Alien Abduction Conference Announced

>>From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net>
>>Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 00:47:18 -0500
>>Fwd Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 06:19:32 -0500
>>Subject: Re: 1999 UFO Alien Abduction Conference Announced

>>>From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
>>>Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 22:23:11 EST
>>>To: updates@globalserve.net
>>>Subject: Re: 1999 UFO Alien Abduction Conference Announced

>>The truth of the situation is this:

>>A. Greg Sandow called me and told me of your interest/offer to
>>participate in the conference. We both thought it was a
>>_great_idea_ and we thought it would lend 'balance' and
>>alternative points of view to the presentation.

>>B. We both brought it up at the very next business meeting.
>>Not only did we bring it up, _we_pitched_it_ because we both
>>felt you would be a good addition.

>>C. The _only_ reasons it was rejected are the following:

>>1. We had _already_ invited Dave Jacobs, Stanton Friedman and
>>Jerry Clark. (Stan and Jerry need to be flown in.)

>>2. We are working on a shoestring and we _couldn't_afford_ to
>>fly in a third speaker!

>>Period!

>>Are you suggesting a conspiracy or an attempt to keep you out
>>because of your views? _Nothing_ is farther from the truth. You
>>are welcome to verify any of what I have said here with either
>>Greg Sandow or Budd Hopkins.

>>If _any_ of the prior commitments hadn't already been made, Greg
>>and I were prepared to argue for your inclusion but we can't
>>afford to bring you in as well.

>If Kevin Randle were to fly himself in, would he be welcome to
>address the conference? Certainly there should be a little time
>available.


Hi Roger,

That would have been a possibility two weeks ago. We have since
added Carol Rainey to the schedule (she is giving a talk on the
role of the media re: UFOs and abductions) and as a result the
schedule is now full. Carol is also 'local' and doesn't require
special travel arrangements.

It's only a _one_ day conference. If there was more time, and
Kevin was willing to pay his own way, I don't see why he
couldn't/shouldn't speak at any conference sponsored by IF. In
fact he could have compensated himself by selling some of his
books at our table during the event. There's more here than
meets the eye though Roger. There was more than a little vitriol
in Kevins' post about the conference. There are several
conferences each year and 'for some reason' he has chosen to
come out publicly and single out our event labeling it biased or
one sided. I've never seen him post complaints about any
conferences that he has participated in, or any others for that
matter. How many of the conferences that have taken place could
be considered "well balanced" in terms of presentation of
opposing points of view? Not many I'm sure. But for some reason
Kevin feels it's his duty to warn everyone about how biased ours
is.

I don't quite get it, but then there it is. In spite of many
differences of opinion and belief I have always liked and
respected Kevin. This particular outing of his has me a bit
baffled however. I am sorry that he has adopted this "negative"
view of our event. Just three weeks ago he was asking to be
invited as a participant. He seemed more than willing to
associate himself and his name with us and our conference. Now,
he's knocking us all over the internet.

Go figure!  <G>

Peace,

John Velez
________________________________________________
                                jvif@spacelab.net
INTRUDERS FOUNDATION/ABDUCTION INFORMATION CENTER
                            http://www.if-aic.com
"Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind."
________________________________________________






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 29

              Re: 1999 UFO Alien Abduction Conference Announced

From: Rebecca Keith <xiannekei@yahoo.com>
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 10:13:53 -0800 (PST)
Fwd Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 07:33:42 -0500
Subject: Re: 1999 UFO Alien Abduction Conference Announced


>From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
>Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 09:36:22 EST
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Re: 1999 UFO Alien Abduction Conference Announced

>>I would be most interested in hearing more about the new
>>research and alternative explanations. When is the book coming
>>out?

>Late April. It's called 'The Abduction Enigma'.

I'll certainly look for it.

>>What is the specialty of Dr. William Cone? Is he an MD or PhD?

>Dr. Cone is a psychologist with more than twenty years of
>experience as a clinician. He serves of the staff of several
>hospitals and has conducted a great deal of research into the
>abduction phenomena.

I'm not in the medical profession, so my thoughts are just that
-- thoughts. However, I would like to know if Dr. Cone might
have conferred with any neurologists because it seems to me, in
my uneducated way of thinking, that there could be some
neurological answers -- perhaps conditions, syndromes, diseases,
etc., that we aren't even yet aware -- to some abductions
stories.

>>Perhaps you could share some highlights of the new research
>>with this list.

>This is the most difficult of the questions because much of the
>new research is somewhat complicated and without a proper
>foundation is going to sound extreme or will be rejected out of
>hand. (Note to myself: Now I sound like Gary, though the
>difference is, the book has been accepted by a publisher and if
>they maintain the schedule, it will be available to all soon.)

I understand about the complicated nature of these things, but
I'm just really curious about an idea I've been toying around
with for a while and that is Munchausen's and Munchausen's by
Proxy (I'm sure I've misspelled that). Are there any comparisons
made to these syndromes by Dr. Cone?

>It does contain a lengthy discussion of hypnosis as an
>investigative tool, suggesting many of the pitfalls of
>hypnotically recovered testimony. The suggestibility of the
>subject, for example, is something that we, as researchers, do
>not seem to fully understand. What we see as a simple question
>to gather more, and sometimes obscured, information, could be a
>"demand" for information that the subject simply doesn't have.
>To continue to probe for that information can induce a point
>where the subject "invents" that information to satisfy the
>researcher.

Kevin, this is something I can speak of first-hand. I was
regressed and I do have some false memories as a result. These
memories aren't significant and I know the hypnotist did not
implant them -- I created them. I didn't mean to, of course, the
object was to try to get answers. Now, I'm stuck with these
self-created anachronisms in these other memories that simply
won't go away.

It didn't take me long to realize just how difficult things
could have been for me, if I had created some other kind of
false memory.

>This is why some states now prohibit witnesses who have been
>hypnotized (questioned under hypnosis about the crime) from
>testifying. It is simply too easy to implant information even by
>the most careful of questioners.

And sometimes the information isn't even implanted, the mind
just creates it, as happened in my case.

>There is also a section that expands on my MUFON presentation of
>a couple of year ago. In that, I suggested that pop culture has
>included all the elements of alien abduction. If we look to
>science fiction, we can find everything we find in alien
>abduction repeatedly. Some of the more recent of the abduction
>scenarios, such as the suggestion of genetic engineering and
>manipulation are rare but they do exist.  The 1960s movie,
>'Village Of The Damned', based on an earlier book, 'The Midwich
>Cuckoos'* suggested the abduction of women for the purpose of
>creating a genetic hybrid, for example, is out there. We simply
>cannot dismiss these parallels, but must be able to account for
>them.

I'll let Jerry argue with you about your pop culture theory,
because, I thought that presentation was excellent.

Did you complete you PhD, btw? If so, congratulations.

>I'll try to add more about this later, but the entire context
of >the book is needed to understand some of the points of view.

Appreciated and thanks!

Rebecca






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 29

               Re: Missing CIA Documents on www.foia.ucia.gov

From: Scott Hale <sh5259a@american.edu>
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 14:06:10 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 07:46:11 -0500
Subject: Re: Missing CIA Documents on www.foia.ucia.gov



>Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 07:06:54 -0500
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
>Subject: Re: Missing CIA Documents on www.foia.ucia.gov


>Ed-

>I wish the CIA had followed the lead of other agencies and used
>the .pdf format for their documents, but they chose to use CGI
>scripting to spoon feed the data in graphic format.

>I submitted an FOIA request for all UFO related material that
>they have posted to the web site and obtained more than 900
>pages of documents.  I'm working with FUFOR to organize those
>documents so they can be distributed on CD-ROM, but that work is
>just beginning and I have no target date for a release.

>In the meantime, I would keep trying their site.  I got the same
>errors when I first tried to access the information and the next
>day it worked fine.  I believe the problem relates to their
>server and is an intermittant problem.


Steve,

There was a CIA UFO CD-ROM put out a year ago by some small time
media company. I can't remember the specifics but I'll look
around for it. It might have all the documents you are thinking
about indexing. I also have a CD burner if you need any
assistance.


Best,
Scott Hale





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 29

               Re: MJ-12 documents & The Norfolk Regiment Tale

From: Ed Stewart <ufoindex@jps.net>
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 11:41:31 -0800
Fwd Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 07:50:06 -0500
Subject: Re: MJ-12 documents & The Norfolk Regiment Tale


>Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 23:10:10 -0800
>From: William Chalker <bchalker@ozemail.com.au>
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: MJ-12 documents & The Norfolk Regiment Tale

BRAVO, Bill Chalker!

It is very refreshing to see that this fatal flaw in the new
majestic papers was detected by others.  Barry Greenwood's
latest UHR discusses this alleged incident in full with
references. It is compelling documentation that the writers of
the new majestic papers, allegedly circa 1950s, were aware of
only the _PULP UFO_ literature from the mid 1960s - the only, I
repeat, the only place where this myth version of the Norfolk
Regiment tale appears, a truly majestic blunder by the creators
of these alleged documents.

<snip>

>Paul Begg has documented his detail investigations of the 1915
>Norfolk saga in his book "Into Thin Air".  Murray Bott of NZ has
>circulated some of the orginal 1965 New Zealand material.

Also, I may add the following reference for those that do not
have access to the book above:

Fortean Times 27, Autumn 1978, pps. 35-38, "The First-Fourth
Norfolk & The Kidnapping Cloud" by Paul Begg.

In this article, Paul Begg also exposes the whole myth for what
it is.  Too bad the creators of the majestic papers only had a
rudimentary knowledge of UFO history and apparently had to rely
on mid-1960s pulp myth to brief the President of the United
States in the 1950s!

In the introduction to their "authentification" of the majestic
papers, on Joe Firmage's web site, the authoritarian team of
Woods and Woods write after their exhaustive and monumental
research into the documents:

        "...and then is followed by three detailed annexes in the back
                containing 56 relevant facts."

How true! And the relevancy points to fakery and a majestic hoax
on the UFO community by those that do not have their ducks lined
up as far as UFO history goes and have to rely on pulp UFO
stories from the mid 1960s!

Thank you, Bill Chalker.
Thank you, Barry Greenwood.
And thank you Paul Begg and Fortean Times

Ed Stewart

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ed Stewart ufoindex@jps.net|So Man, who here seems principal alone,
There Is Something         |Perhaps acts second to some sphere unknown.
   Going On!       ,>'?'<, |Touches some wheel, or verges to some goal,
Salvador Freixedo  ( O O ) |'Tis but a part we see, and not a whole.
----------------ooOO-(_)-OOoo------- Alexander Pope, Essay on Man -----






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 29

                Re: Santilli Knew 'Tent Footage' Was a Fraud?

From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 15:14:17 +0000
Fwd Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 07:58:58 -0500
Subject: Re: Santilli Knew 'Tent Footage' Was a Fraud?


>From: Bob Shell <bob@bobshell.com>
>Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 07:58:48 +0000
>Fwd Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 11:28:25 -0500
>Subject: Re: Santilli Knew 'Tent Footage' Was a Fraud?


Previously, I had asked:

>>Perhaps Bob can explain. Do you have camera original or not?

>>For the record, any film that can be printed can be transfered
>>on a Rank Cintel. Both processes use 'roller transport' for
>>moving the film. In fact, the Rank is more gentle than a film
>>printer since the Rank needs no "teeth" to align the film. There
>>would be no need to transfer "one frame at a time" under any
>>circumstance.

Bob replied:

>For the record, I do not now have, have never had, nor ever seen
>any camera original film in this incident.

>The film delivered by the cameraman to Santilli is old copy
>film, in very bad shape.  This was copied onto another 16 mm
>film to assemble the broken strips.  Some of the film had both
>edges rotted off so had to be copied frame by frame, I was told.

>The video was made from this new 16mm dupe.

In a related Post to Nick Balaskas Bob offered:

>Ray doesn't want to acknowledge that he does not have, and
>has never had, any camera original film, just the copy
>print material foisted off on him by the cameraman (who
>apparently told him it was camera original material).
>
>This accounts for the biggest discrepancy in the cameraman's
>tale, how he could make off with all this film without
>anyone noticing.  I speculated several years ago that he
>had, in fact, made an unauthorized copy prior to shipping
>the original film off to Washington.  This is what he
>sold to Ray, and Ray was duped into thinking he had the
>original material.

>This could also account for Capt. McAndrew's comment to me
>that he had seen the same film in Air Force archives.

Hi Bob,

Mucho thanks.

This info certainly fills in a lot of blanks (for me, anyway)
regarding the issues about "camera original" and Santilli's
claims of having the film "transferred one frame" at at time. I
must admit, if the above info is true, it would certainly go a
long way toward validating Santilli's claims about how he got
the stuff.

Still, I'm a bit suspicious about his statements regarding
"development of the film" and "processing of the reels". After
all, if he bought 15 cans of undeveloped film, as suggested in
Mr. Easton's post, then there's a piece missing to this puzzle.
What you say about him (the cameraman) making a secret dupe
print makes the most sense, if Santilli's claims are true.

Just for the record, has it been determined that the film
Santilli bought is a dupe because the film stock is recognized
as such? Or was this determined by the "wind" of the film; i.e.
which side the emmulsion is on? Did you check the pieces you
have to see if it's an "A-wind" or a "B-wind"?

If the cameraman did quickly make a secret copy for himself, it
probably was a contact print and not an optical print.
Therefore, the emmulsion on the print that Santilli bought (and
gave you pieces of) would be on the opposite side than if it
were original film from either a field camera or optical
printer. This is assuming, of course, that Santilli is truthful
that what he gave you is directly from what the cameraman sold
him.

Likewise, if Santilli then had an optical made of this dupe
film, then the resulting dupe original would the same wind as
camera original (assuming they did not shoot through the base),
but not subsequent contact prints, of course. If Santilli's
final prints from his "new dupe original" have the emmulsion on
the same side as camera original, then either a generation is
missing or Santilli started from camera original.

I know this sounds confusing. But give it some consideration. Do
you follow what I'm getting at?

Later,

Roger Evans





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 29

              Re: 1999 UFO Alien Abduction Conference Announced

From: Sean Jones <seanj@tedric.demon.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 20:07:13 +0000
Fwd Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 08:04:12 -0500
Subject: Re: 1999 UFO Alien Abduction Conference Announced


>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
>Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 20:32:36 EST
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: 1999 UFO Alien Abduction Conference Announced

>But I'm regular as rain in London

>Jim Mortellaro

Jim, I'm aghast, how dare you slander our great capital :-)

On a serious note, I'd like to stay out of this one as it is
entirely personal, IMHO, and one which ruffles feathers
instantly if you even dare to suggest that there might be other
things to explain _some_alleged_ abductions.

--

    In an infinite universe infinitely anything is possible.
                       Sean Jones
 Homepage--http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Zone/1745/index.htm
            UFO page--http://www.tedric.demon.co.uk/





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 29

              Re: 1999 UFO Alien Abduction Conference Announced

From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@connectmmic.net>
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 23:28:17 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 08:23:31 -0500
Subject: Re: 1999 UFO Alien Abduction Conference Announced


>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
>Subject: Re: 1999 UFO Alien Abduction Conference Announced
>Date: Wed, 27 Jan 99 11:29:24 PST

>>From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
>>Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 22:23:11 EST
>>To: updates@globalserve.net
>>Subject: Re: 1999 UFO Alien Abduction Conference Announced

>>>From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@get2net.dk>
>>>Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 02:02:26 +0100 (MET)
>>>Subject: 1999 UFO Alien Abduction Conference Announced
>>>To: updates@globalserve.net

>>Not all the evidence. Only that which they want you to hear. You
>>will notice that there are no speakers or information offered
>>about alternatives to these specific people's opinions. How
>>cutting edge can it be without alternative explanations being
>>offered.

<snip>

>>It will only be a crash course in belief structure and it will
>>not contain the latest findings. Only those findings which they
>>want you to hear. In an upcoming book by Kevin Randle (me), Russ
>>Estes, and Dr. William P. Cone, we take a long and hard look at
>>the abduction phenomenon as it exists today. We can find some
>>alternative explanations and we offered to share these at the
>>conference, but the organizers were uninterested in that. They
>>are only interested in promoting alien abduction as if it is a
>>proven fact and refuse to answer hard questions about it.

<snip>

>I am afraid that none of the above makes much sense to me. First
>of all, the organizers of any conference on any subject have the
>right to invite exactly whom they want to invite, and to have
>represented any point of view they endorse, feel comfortable
>with, or consider important.

Jerome,

Please note that we are talking about a proven investigator,
with lots of credentials, and about to publish a book on the
subject of abduction.

If things happened the way Kevin Randle implies they happened...
THAT conference is, in my opinion, suspicious.

You are perfectly correct in stating that the organizers have
the right to invite whom they want to invite.  But, isn't that a
straw man argument?  Of course, they have the right to endorse
the point of view they want.  But isn't that the real problem
with ufology in general and abductions in particular: turning
one's back on analysis and advocate "opinions" instead?

<snip>

>If you're not happy with the views
>expressed at the Intruders conference, hold your own damn
>conference.

The best argument in years.

You win a cookie on that one.

Serge Salvaille






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 29

                  Re: Deficiency In SETI's Drake's Equation

From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj@proaxis.com>
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 14:05:37 -0800 (PST)
Fwd Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 08:31:47 -0500
Subject: Re: Deficiency In SETI's Drake's Equation

>Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 08:17:58 -0800
>From: Ed Stewart <ufoindex@jps.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: Deficiency In SETI's Drake's Equation

>>Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 17:01:51 -0800 (PST)
>>To: updates@globalserve.net
>>From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj@proaxis.com>
>>Subject: Deficiency In SETI's Drake's Equation

>Have you ever heard of SETI in the optical spectrum?

>Visit the following site:

>http://www.coseti.org

>Dr. Stuart Kingsley has been searching the optical spectrum for
>quite sometime and making a case for optical SETI.

Thanks for this suggestion, and also the one to join the SETI
mailing list.

To Alfred Lehmberg, who wrote:
>I'm not surprised you never heard from anyone. Your idea
>regarding the equation points in the shadows of the other 98%
>that science refuses to consider or quantify because it doesn't
>predictably repeat, isn't observable, or is not in line with a
>comfortable theory or conveniently conceived paradigm <g>.

Yes, there's no point indeed in wasting time on the 98%. But
it's the other 2% whom it's sometimes worth trying to seek out.

And Ed Stewart wrote:

>Obviously, Professor Jim Deardoff's contention that SETI only
>looks for radio waves was spoken from personal ignorance of
>what SETI programs do and don't do.

>Ed Stewart

I was speaking in reference to Drake's equation and SETI's use
of it on their website. There they listed N as the number of
civilizations in our galaxy whose radio emissions are
detectable. So that's their slant on it; I don't recall that
Drake himself made that limitation, though radio emissions are
his thing.

Jim Deardorff






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 29

              Re: 1999 UFO Alien Abduction Conference Announced

From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 18:20:28 EST
Fwd Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 08:36:22 -0500
Subject: Re: 1999 UFO Alien Abduction Conference Announced


>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
>Subject: Re: 1999 UFO Alien Abduction Conference Announced
>Date: Thu, 28 Jan 99 10:43:04 PST

<snippety do dah>

Jerry -

I am surprised at the angry tone of your missive. Haven't you
suggested to others that there are two letters - the one you
write in the heat of passion and the one you send?

If you are concerned that the book will examine many of the
issues discussed here and elsewhere, there will have to be a
recapitulation of that earlier information in case not all are
as informed as you.

If you want to trade journal cites, then let me throw in, for
laughs if for no other reason, "Tolerance of Ambiguity and the
Perception of UFOs" by Houran, Perceptual and Motor Skills,
1997, 85, 973-974. How about "An Assessment of Contextual
Mediation in Trance States of Shamanic Journeys" by James
Houran, Rense Lange, and Michelle Crist-Houran, Perceptual and
Motor Skills, 1997, 85, 59-65. How about "Measured Personality
Characteristics of Persons Who Claim UFO Experiences," by June
Parnell, Psychotherapy in Private Practice, Vol. 6(3) 1988
(though this might be too old by your standards).

All this means is that I have looked at the literature in great
detail, including the psychological journals. Like Greg Sandow,
I have read nearly every article on UFOs that shows up in the
literature, and like Greg, I was surprised at the lack of
first-hand investigation. The point, however, is that yes, we
looked at all of this.

My questions to you were merely a request for information
because I don't like having my points defended by others. Yes,
I'm sure that you will be thoughtful and intelligent, and that
you will cover the material as you see it. But it will be your
point of view and not mine, and I have seen, in the past, that
sometimes some things gets lost in the translation.

And of course the Intruders Foundation can invite whomever they
want and they can promote whatever point of view they want. But
when you move into a public arena, then you invite questions and
comments and that is what I did.

I'm very sorry that it has angered you to the point it has. It
was not my intention to suggest any sort of a conspiracy on the
part of John Velez, Greg Sandow or Budd Hopkins. It was,
however, my intention to suggest that the list of speakers and
researchers was not balanced, in my opinion and here you can't
argue because it is my opinion. You can suggest that my opinion
is wrong, but you can't argue my opinion, which is what I have
offered.

And if you want to have a contest as to who first investigated
an abduction, then you win. I didn't look at any of them, with
any sort of interest until sometime around 1972, and made my
first, long term investigation of a case in 1974.

But you know as well as I that the face of abduction has changed
since it was first reported by the Lorenzens and John Fuller,
and the other pioneers. In fact, if we read Fuller's book
carefully, we find that the face of the abductors has also
changed from the first telling to those we hear today.

Jerry, take it easy. I just offered a contrary point of view.

KRandle





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 29

                    Re: Taking the Heat Out Of 'The Heat'

From: Tony Spurrier <TSpurrier@compuserve.com>
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 18:40:35 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 08:40:05 -0500
Subject: Re: Taking the Heat Out Of 'The Heat'


>From: Roy Hale <roy.hale@virgin.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: Taking the Heat Out Of 'The Heat'
>Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 17:09:03 -0000

>Hi All,

>Well it's good to see you back in action Tony after your little
>break.

>Now then, what was it you recently informed me of? Oh yes
>"On-board encounters are happening here in the UK". Right' maybe
>you could inform the whole list as to where and when these
>events are taking place? I think most researchers especially
>those who are very sceptical on ET visiting us would be thrilled
>to learn that you have seen,  heard about  on board encounters.

Hi Roy

It's good to see you're are still conforming to those rules of
defending disinformation.

>Couple of questions for you:

>1.) You told me that on-board encounters are happening in the
>UK. Were you witness to these or is this just hearsay?

Ok, to answer your question 1...

I was present when a witness remote viewed a craft, this was
then corroborated by another individual who witnessed the same
craft.

>2.) Are you saying that you are in fact the person who is having
>on-board encounters in the UK?

No, I am not the person who is having these "experiences".

>3.) Would you like to share with this list your evidence of on
>board encounters in the UK?

See reply to question , however, IMO I prefer to think of this
as reasons for continuining to investigate this contact method
rather than calling it evidence.

>4.) Are you therefore informing the UFO Research Community that
>you know off individuals who are having on board encounters?

No you have publicised this, but yes I know of individuals who
are having these "experiences".

>5.) On Board Encounters meaning? Perhaps you could explain what
>these are?

Both witnessed described seeing a craft in the same area, being
in the craft at different times, seeing the same interior etc.

>6.) Seeming your sceptical nature of the FT's origin, could
<these be Military on board encounters? Or does your training
>enable you  to differentiate?

Answer to part one, I am unaware of anyone who has remote viewed
the inside of an  FT.

Answer to part two, what training are you talking about?

>7.) Tony I wonder why you did not pick up on this so called
>discrepancy when you posted it on the UFO Compuserve
>Forum(1997)? This really is a great ploy that you keep using,
>and well I and the rest of ELUFON do admire you for trying.
>(Quote of the year 1998) "Never heard of it man"

No, I hadn't noticed the discrepancy in early 1998 (not 1997)

What ploy are you talking about?

>I think you should address your question to the last editor of
>the magazine who had editorial control, I think you know her
>quite well, she if I remember also contributed to this article,
>in fact I would say she had a lot to do with the article facts,
>as it was her who had the sighting!

My understanding is that the previous editor was purely in
charge of the layout of the magazine. Do you change others
articles as the current editor?

Yes, and the previous editor and the other witness have agreed
that your article is incorrect.

>I doubt if
>we will ever hear the last of you, occasionally rambling on
>about back issues of the magazine, which you read.....

The last issue wasn't what I'd call a bumper crop circle
edition, I saw only one report on crop circles.

>what other exciting things are going
>on in your life right now Tony?

I'm flattered that you ask, anything in particular you want to
know? If so you can email me.

>Oh yes my humble opinion on our beloved Flying Triangle?
>Documents you say, you want documents, you hear that
>everyoneTony Spurrier wants evidence do you hear!!!

You stated publicly in your comments that you can assure the
reader, how do you justify your statement? Again you seem to
have used another rule of defending disinformation.

>And yes I love commenting on my own articles I love it, because
>it makes me feel good inside, and I re-read the comments over
>and over and over again, and I keep saying to myself this is
>great, how do I do it each other month, it's called "Love
>thyself Therapy" you should try it, it really works.

Surely if you've written the article correctly you wouldn't need
to comment on it as you would have made your point already. I
assume you do have an English language qualification! Anyway, my
understanding is that you didn't write the report but you put
your name to it because the author thought the intelligence
services would get him!

With regards to contact work and your openess to talk about it,
would you like to discuss your contact methods you describe as
'by advanced electronic means', and the experiences you have
had?

Thanks, Tony






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 29

              Re: 1999 UFO Alien Abduction Conference Announced

From: Alain Stauffer <astauffer@infomaniak.ch>
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 01:15:32 +0100
Fwd Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 09:01:38 -0500
Subject: Re: 1999 UFO Alien Abduction Conference Announced


Hello!

>From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
>Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 09:36:22 EST
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Re: 1999 UFO Alien Abduction Conference Announced

>There is also a section that expands on my MUFON presentation of
>a couple of year ago. In that, I suggested that pop culture has
>included all the elements of alien abduction. If we look to
>science fiction, we can find everything we find in alien
>abduction repeatedly. Some of the more recent of the abduction
>scenarios, such as the suggestion of genetic engineering and
>manipulation are rare but they do exist.  The 1960s movie,
>'Village Of The Damned', based on an earlier book, 'The Midwich
>Cuckoos'* suggested the abduction of women for the purpose of
>creating a genetic hybrid, for example, is out there. We simply
>cannot dismiss these parallels, but must be able to account for
>them.

This is of course correct and very interesting. But the
parallels can be applied to the UFO phenomenon as a whole, and
not only to the abductions. The french writer Bertrand Meheust
had showed this weird coincidence between the science-fiction
stories and the real UFO sightings in his book Science-fiction
et Soucoupes Volantes, in the late '70.This publication led a
number of searchers to think that the source of the phenomenon
was actually the SciFi culture - which is obviously a very quick
conclusion and cannot easily explain the materiality of a lot of
UFO manifestations.

Nevertheless, the parallels can be precisely established and the
similarity of the descriptions that can be found both in the
fiction and in the real world is an aspect of the phenomenon
that certainly should be accounted for, but first deeply
investigated.

After all, the Titanic tragedy had been perfectly described in a
novel some twenty or thirty years earlier as well.

Have a good day

Alain Stauffer







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 29

                             Re: Keeping Secrets

From: Ted Viens <drtedv@freewwweb.com>
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 07:36:43 -0600
Fwd Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 09:41:00 -0500
Subject: Re: Keeping Secrets


>From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
>Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 23:26:59 EST
>To: Updates@Globalserve.net
>Subject: Keeping Secrets

>>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
>>Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 12:14:52 EST
>>Fwd Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 08:51:03 -0500
>>Subject: Keeping Secrets

><snip>

>>I was, in 1970, working on a project called NAGS.  This was the
>>acronym for Naval Advanced Guidance System.  It was one of the
>>means by which a Polaris Poseiden warhead would guide itself
>>towards target(s), as these were MIRV or multiple warheads.

>>The security at the facility was very, very strict. You needed a
>>top secret clearance just to get into the work area.  And that
>>work area was guarded 24 hours a day.  Beyond the human
>>security, you needed a special badge and code access to get
>>thru the door.

>>If there was anything about this project that was critical, it
>>was security.  About three months after I became one of the
>>Electro-Optics engineers on the project, and after numerous
>>security briefings by the military, by the project management,
>>by the company reps, by everybody, an article appeared in
>>Aviation Week and Space Technology which outlined _exactly_ what
>>this project was all about ...

>That's why it's called "Aviation Leak".

>>... including the top secret portions, which threatened corporeal
>>[sic] punishment and a cruel death to anyone on the project
>>who leaked information, even by accident.

>Does Mr. Mortellaro expect us to take this statement at face value,
>or is it a joke?  "Corporal punishment and a cruel death" for
>accidental leaking of information?

>Jim, can you cite one single documented instance in which
>punishments such as this have been authorized or applied in the
>United States of America?  I'm obviously not talking about the
>Rosenberg spy case, or the execution of NAZI agents during World
>War II. Please be specific with as many examples as you can find,
>or cite the applicable section of U.S. law authorizing such things.

>On the other hand, just since the end of the Cold War there have
>been a number of widely publicized real spy cases involving even
>such things as our wartime nuclear target list and sub operations
>codes where people have received prison terms.  None have
>received "corporeal punishment" or "cruel deaths".  The old KGB,
>on the other hand, was rumored to have thrown Soviet citizens who
>were our double agents, alive, into a basement furnace at Lubyanka
>Prison in Moscow.


Wake up people. Did someone declare this List or most any other
forum on the internet a rigorously enforced example of
rhetorical debate?

Do we all abandon our real life experiences (however shallow and
infrequent they may be) and only discuss these issues in light
of our idealised visions of how life might be?

Sure, legal statute for violation of national security may not
prescribe public flogging and execution, but that doesn't stop
some hot shot captain from leading a security seminar and
promising the audience that if they violate their oath, they
just might get their nuts cut off and find their bones
decorating some desert landscape.

I mean, sheeeesh, _real_ life is sometimes messy and unfair...

Bye...  Ted..






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 29

                         Re: Open Letter To Art Bell

From: Ted Viens <drtedv@freewwweb.com>
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 19:09:56 -0600
Fwd Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 09:15:50 -0500
Subject: Re: Open Letter To Art Bell


Apologies for the delay in posting. I am days behind in reading
UpDates...


>Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 09:21:32 +1100
>From: Barbara Sagan <bbjc@ozemail.com.au>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Open Letter To Art Bell

>[Non-Subscriber Post]

>Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 09:17:13 +1100
>From: Barbara Sagan <bbjc@ozemail.com.au>
>To: Art Bell <artbell@aol.com>
>Subject: Open Letter To Art Bell

>Dear Mr. Bell,

>The nation is waiting for your response tonight:

>1. When will you have Hoagland-Stephens Debate?

>2. If Stephens wins, will he replace Hoagland as permanent guest
>   on your show?

>3. Now that we know that Hoagland is a fraud, what about Dames?

>4. Art, you are a genius, your ratings are going up and up
>   did you plan all that?


How corny...  I feel trite in reminding the readers that Art
Bell is an entertainer.  His programs are entertainment.  The
bottom line for his guest is that they be entertaining.
Hoagland is a somewhat pompous orator.  His glib, gregarious,
self-serving, mildly coercive speaking skills, common to
functional psychotics colored by influences of schizophrenia and
paranoia, are very entertaining to a wide spectrum of the
nighttime audience.

Robert A. M. Stephens is basically an uncoordinated, easily
diverted whiner.  What few perceptive and valid points he might
raise drawn in the bulk of the shallow and poorly stated issues
he offers. Basically, he's a jerk.

Now, which of these men would a responsible host have on his
late night entertainment show?

Bye...  Ted..






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 29

               Jim Dilettoso: Retraction-Apology Required from

From: Jim Dilettoso <jim@villagelabs.com>
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 18:57:27 -0700
Fwd Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 09:52:48 -0500
Subject: Jim Dilettoso: Retraction-Apology Required from


[Non-Subscriber Post]

Mr Korff,

Regardless of what you think of me, regardless of what you think
of what I do, or how I do it,

You are not allowed by law to publish lies.

Mr. Korff, you  claim to be a journalist, investigate the facts,
adhere to a journalistic code of ethics then you state (among
other things) in a widely circulated e-mail which was written
by you "it has been proven in court records that Jim Dilettoso
swindled/conned investors out of millions of dollars"

This information is false. It never happened.
No investor complaints.
No lawsuits from investors.
No accusations of fraud from investors or anyone.
Only _you_.

Where did you get that information?
Where are the court records of which you speak?
Who gave you that information that you have circulated as fact?

In fact you take great care to circulate your e-mail lies and
pretend that it is news and then... _You_ submit them to search
engines so that they will be found when people search my name.

I just received a call from someone who is soliciting my
expertise in the computer field. Just because it is the way
things are done, he submitted my name to the Alta Vista and
Yahoo search engines.

What he got was that 8 out of 10 were documents created,
posted, distributed, by _you_.

The documents are a series of e-mails and responses orchestrated
by you with certain and specific information about Jim Dilettoso.

This information is false: created by you to defame me.
Your actions and refusal to comment to me are interesting.

I demand that you answer the above questions concerning the
source of information that you have globally submitted as fact.

Jim Dilettoso






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 29

                  Abduction Hypotheses [was: 1999 UFO Alien

From: John W. Ratcliff <jratcliff@worldnet.att.net>
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 22:18:19 -0600
Fwd Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 10:00:37 -0500
Subject: Abduction Hypotheses [was: 1999 UFO Alien


From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 22:23:11 EST
To: updates@globalserve.net
Subject: Re: 1999 UFO Alien Abduction Conference Announced

Kevin wrote:

>>In an upcoming book by Kevin Randle (me), Russ
>>Estes, and Dr. William P. Cone, we take a long and hard look at
>>the abduction phenomenon as it exists today. We can find some
>>alternative explanations and we offered to share these at the
>>conference, but the organizers were uninterested in that. They
>>are only interested in promoting alien abduction as if it is a
>>proven fact and refuse to answer hard questions about it.

Hmmmm... Kevin, I guess it's just a tiny quibble about semantics,
but I wonder about your choice of the word 'explanations', as
opposed to 'hypotheses..'

I've read some of your books and think you've made some nice
presentations on nuts & bolts UFOs. If I recall correctly, I
don't believe you have ever claimed to have been abducted by
aliens. Neither have I. However, I do know a bunch of people
who have had anomalous experiences which fall into this
category.

The only conclusion I have been able to draw is that other
people have different experiences than I have. I wouldn't claim
to speak with any authority about the experiences of a rape
victim, or the holocaust, and I'm uncomfortable doing the same
for my alien abductee friends.

The 'explanations' I have heard put forth in the past almost all
presume a form of mental illness, which makes me a bit
uncomfortable. More to the point, most 'explanations' offered
haven't been endorsed by the victims themselves.

You can ignore the abduction phenomenon, that is if it ain't
happening to you. The evidence for the phenomenon is at the same
level as the proffered by my Christian friends who claim their
faith is valid because Christ has touched them in their lives. I
note that Christ is a 2,000 year old dead Jew, and has never
touched _my_ life, and can easily dismiss their proposal. The
same thing can be said about the abduction phenomenon. Ignore
it, it has nothing to do with Roswell, nuts & bolts UFOs, and
any physical evidence which might be related to it. Without
having been personally abducted by an alien, I don't know how
much you or I can really say about the subject.

Nevertheless, the popular hypotheses are....

(1) Aliens flying from outer space, taking folks away.

(2) Interdimensional beings, from other aspects or higher
aspects of reality, interacting with humanity.

(3) Spiritual beings, angels/demons, which is just another way
of restating #2.

(4) Liars.

(5) Suffering from a variety of forms of mental illness.

(6) People convince themselves of these experiences due to
cultural overlay and/or hypnotic suggestion.

(7) The product of altered states of consciousness, analogous to
those achieved through the consumption of psychoactive
compounds. It is a fact that states of consciousness can be
altered, from a _wide_variety_ of influences, including
manipulating biochemistry, fasting, yoga, consumption of
delicious foods, holy chemicals, or electromagnetic influence in
the temporal lobe. Consideration of these facts might allow
someone to conjecture that abduction experiences are the product
of an altered state of consciousness, without correlation to
physical reality.

(8) Most of #7 but with a touch of the paranormal, along the
lines of stigmata, so that physical evidence can be reflected in
the body.

(9) Any combination of the first 8 in addition to stuff my
stupid little Homo sapiens monkey brain can't even
conceptualize.

(10)........add you own 'explanations', or hypotheses as you
will. Lord knows I have, but none of them seem to wholly
address the concerns of my friends who have been abused by these
experiences.

Like I've said in previous messages, whenever I get abducted by
aliens, contacted by Jesus, or have a Roswell UFO crash in my
front yard, I'll be sure to give you a more refined hypothesis
based on my new set of experiential data.

John






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 29

              Re: 1999 UFO Alien Abduction Conference Announced

From: Ted Viens <drtedv@freewwweb.com>
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 22:56:48 -0600
Fwd Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 10:06:09 -0500
Subject: Re: 1999 UFO Alien Abduction Conference Announced


>From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
>Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 09:13:13 EST
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Re: 1999 UFO Alien Abduction Conference Announced

>>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
>>Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 20:32:36 EST
>>To: updates@globalserve.net
>>Subject: 1999 UFO Alien Abduction Conference Announced

>>Dear Kevin Randle and List...

>>Regarding your views on the upcoming UFO conference by the
>>Intruders Foundation....

>>A little surprised to read your comments here and on UASR, Kevin.
>>Even Gripple won't use these bitter grapes for our fresh wine.

>Sour grapes? I was merely making an observation about the nature
>of the conference that I thought should be made.

>>Isn't there enough room in ufology for differing points of view?
>>And isn't there sufficient venue for an organization to present
>>their side of the issue, without having to invite everyone with
>>a varying perspective? Cripes Kevin, they would need a room the
>>size of Yankee Stadium for all the dissenters.

>Yes, there is room for differing points of view. That was what I
>was trying to point out. There are differing points of view.

<snip>

>I expected negative responses but this sort is not what I
>expected.



Kevin,

The failure is not with the readers but with the writer. Perhaps
it was late when you composed your first response, perhaps you
were weary.

The apparent intent and the received impression was that you
were faulting and diminishing the conference for not meeting
your standards of broad mindedness and expressing your views.

The most of us see the conference as sufficiently balanced if
still rife with those with whom we perhaps have become too
familiar.

The more callous in the fringes of our group would consider this
an opportunistic chance to promote your new book.

However, I have enjoyed your current works and look forward to
another book from you.

Bye... Ted..






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 29

                  Re: Deficiency In SETI's Drake's Equation

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 07:54:12 -0600
Fwd Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 10:16:19 -0500
Subject: Re: Deficiency In SETI's Drake's Equation


>Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 14:05:37 -0800 (PST)
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj@proaxis.com>
>Subject: Re: Deficiency In SETI's Drake's Equation

>>Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 08:17:58 -0800
>>From: Ed Stewart <ufoindex@jps.net>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>Subject: Re: Deficiency In SETI's Drake's Equation

>>>Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 17:01:51 -0800 (PST)
>>>To: updates@globalserve.net
>>>From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj@proaxis.com>
>>>Subject: Deficiency In SETI's Drake's Equation

<snip>

>To Alfred Lehmberg, who wrote:
>>I'm not surprised you never heard from anyone. Your idea
>>regarding the equation points in the shadows of the other 98%
>>that science refuses to consider or quantify because it doesn't
>>predictably repeat, isn't observable, or is not in line with a

>Yes, there's no point indeed in wasting time on the 98%. But
>it's the other 2% whom it's sometimes worth trying to seek out.

<snip>

. . . Not what I said. I contend that to follow the preceding
suggestion may be to consume the rind, while throwing the melon
away. Science isn't the end -- it _may_ be a good beginning.



Lehmberg@snowhill.com
--
Explore the Alien View!
Ponder the Wit & Wisdom of Ching Chow!

http://www.fortunecity.com/roswell/arecibo/46/

<Updated 28 January>

John Ford Restoration Fund -- Send your checks and
money orders to _me_, Alfred Lehmberg
(cut out the lawyers, they got their's) at:
304 Melbourne Drive, Enterprise AL, 36330. Strict records kept.

"Only thin, _very light_ envelopes with a return address will be
accepted <g>." ~~~ $225.00 pledged -- $125.00 collected ~~~

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see from
afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, while burning at the
fundamentalist's stake.






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 29

              Abduction - The Issue Of Reality [was... 1999 UFO

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 08:55:29 EST
Fwd Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 10:31:29 -0500
Subject: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality [was... 1999 UFO



>Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 20:07:13 +0000
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Sean Jones <seanj@tedric.demon.co.uk>
>Subject: Re: 1999 UFO Alien Abduction Conference Announced

>>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
>>Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 20:32:36 EST
>>To: updates@globalserve.net
>>Subject: 1999 UFO Alien Abduction Conference Announced

>>But I'm regular as rain in London

>>Jim Mortellaro

>Jim, I'm aghast, how dare you slander our great capital :-)

>On a serious note, I'd like to stay out of this one as it is
>entirely personal, IMHO, and one which ruffles feathers
>instantly if you even dare to suggest that there might be other
>things to explain _some_alleged_ abductions.

True Sean.....

The experience leaves one exceedingly disturbed, is entirely too
realistic and remains in the memory longer than the worst of
recurring dreams. IF it continues off and on over a lifetime,
the results of such a personal encounter are fascinatingly
personal. It is like getting raped, altho being a guy, I can
never truly relate to that.

I do not even begin to understand what, how and why, I only know
this... to the experiencer, it is more real than real. Very
real.... very, very real.

I have been having a dialog with some others in the same boat.
The most recent discussion led to the issue of reality. We have
all had recurring dreams. Dreams often leave you with a
"feeling." The feeling left is real enough, but there is the
knowledge that the feeling, while very real, is the remnant of a
dream experience.

The experiencer of this abduction phenom is also left with a
real feeling. However the reason for the feeling is not a dream.
There is always, or most of the time anyway, the knowledge, firm
and unshakeable, that there was no dream. This was something
experienced. I wish I could relate it more clearly than this. An
example....

I was a rather bright little guy growng up. I knew instinctively
that there was no Santa Claus. I understood that Captain Video
was a story. Even at age 3, 4 and thereabouts. My realization of
what was real and what was imagined was very distinct. My
parents always knew that I had a pretty good grip on reality.

But from a very young age, I distinctly remember being able to
glide along a long, round corridor. I was always in the company
of some others behind and in front. I floated above the floor
and every step I took was impossibly long... many many times my
height.

The experience was so real, that I would practice, at age 4,
standing on the bathroom scale, looking at the needle, knowing
with no doubt whatever, that I could become weightless by
concentrating hard.

Of course, not having Gripple then, I was not able to do so. But
the memory is still with me today, just as real, just as vivid,
just as strongly compelling now, as it was 51 years ago... like
ti was last night.

Associated with that memory is the knowledge that i was able to
float thru the window, fly up to the "hospital" over my house in
an ambulance of strange design, to a structure which even today,
precludes my being able to look up at any structure without the
gravest of phobic fear... make that terror.

I am Thomas the doubter. Show me, let me see it, understand it,
look at it, define it and categorize it. Let me see the damned
equation. No? Then it does not exist.

Why then this predelisction over a belief system including
ascended masters (saints?) and God? Beats the shit outa me.
Except that I have arrived at it on what remains of my
intellect.

Steven Hawking was able, thru physics and cosmology, come to the
conclusion that God can exist in the reality of mathematics and
physics.

Logic when confronted by emotion, has not a chance in this
reality.

Dr. Gesundt.
A very old fool for my age.






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 29

                Re: Santilli Knew 'Tent Footage' Was a Fraud?

From: Bob Shell <bob@bobshell.com>
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 09:53:20 +0000
Fwd Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 10:51:22 -0500
Subject: Re: Santilli Knew 'Tent Footage' Was a Fraud?


>From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
>Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 15:14:17 +0000
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: Santilli Knew 'Tent Footage' Was a Fraud?

>Just for the record, has it been determined that the film
>Santilli bought is a dupe because the film stock is recognized
>as such? Or was this determined by the "wind" of the film; i.e.
>which side the emmulsion is on? Did you check the pieces you
>have to see if it's an "A-wind" or a "B-wind"?

It has been determined because all of it has the distinctive
signature of the Bell & Howell printer used to make the copy
prints.  It also has a soundtrack (blank).

>If the cameraman did quickly make a secret copy for himself, it
>probably was a contact print and not an optical print.
>Therefore, the emmulsion on the print that Santilli bought (and
>gave you pieces of) would be on the opposite side than if it
>were original film from either a field camera or optical
>printer. This is assuming, of course, that Santilli is truthful
>that what he gave you is directly from what the cameraman sold
>him.


No, the cameraman claims he made the copies himself on a copying
machine in the base lab.

>Likewise, if Santilli then had an optical made of this dupe
>film, then the resulting dupe original would the same wind as
>camera original (assuming they did not shoot through the base),
>but not subsequent contact prints, of course. If Santilli's
>final prints from his "new dupe original" have the emmulsion on
>the same side as camera original, then either a generation is
>missing or Santilli started from camera original.

>I know this sounds confusing. But give it some consideration. Do
>you follow what I'm getting at?

Yes, I follow you, but it doesn't matter in this case.

Bob






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 29

              Re: 1999 UFO Alien Abduction Conference Announced

From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 09:26:20 +0000
Fwd Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 10:47:24 -0500
Subject: Re: 1999 UFO Alien Abduction Conference Announced


>From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@connectmmic.net>
>Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 23:28:17 -0500
>Fwd Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 08:23:31 -0500
>Subject: Re: 1999 UFO Alien Abduction Conference Announced

Previously, Serge had offered:

>You are perfectly correct in stating that the organizers have
>the right to invite whom they want to invite. But, isn't that a
>straw man argument? Of course, they have the right to endorse
>the point of view they want. But isn't that the real problem
>with ufology in general and abductions in particular: turning
>one's back on analysis and advocate opinions instead?

Very well said, Serge.

Best wishes,

Roger Evans






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 29

                     Roswell 1999 - Renewed Perspective?

From: Terry Blanton <commengr@bellsouth.net>
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 09:51:26 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 11:08:09 -0500
Subject: Roswell 1999 - Renewed Perspective?


From Jeff Rense's Web site at:

http://www.sightings.com/ufo2/roswell1999.htm

Terry

        <><><><><><><><><><><><>

Roswell 1999: What Now?
By Thomas J. Carey & Donald R. Schmitt
1-28-99

As the millennium draws inexorably closer, we can look back and
see that the 50th Anniversary Year of 1997 witnessed
unprecedented national if not world-wide interest in the most
famous and most thoroughly investigated UFO case of all time:
the alleged 1947 crash of a flying saucer near the town of
Roswell, NM, and its subsequent retrieval and coverup by the
United States military commonly referred to as The Roswell
Incident after the title of the ground-breaking, if not
best-selling, 1980 book by Charles Berlitz and William Moore.
Countless mainstream magazine articles appearing in such August
publications from Time magazine to Popular Science to Popular
Mechanics gave Roswell the full-bore, cover-story treatment,
while just about every newspaper in the country, large and
small, devoted space to it.

On TV, magazine-style shows such as Hard Copy, Inside Edition
and the like devoted numerous segments to the case, while more
politically-oriented shows like the "cerebral" Nightline and
the more rough and tumble Crossfire did at least one show on the
subject. In-depth treatment of Roswell was provided by cable
TV's "educational" channels, The History Channel, The Learning
Channel and The Discovery Channel. The major network news shows
at ABC, CBS, NBC and CNN also did pieces (regrettably, to be
sure, these concentrated more on the sometimes bizarre hoopla
surrounding the anniversary activities than on the significance
of what all the hoopla was about).

The climax came on the acknowledged 50th anniversary day of
July 4, 1997 with all-day, live TV coverage from Roswell itself
by the cable network news station MSNBC detailing the events
taking place there that day. MSNBC's anchor, John Gibson,
presided over a one-sided discussion of the Project Mogul
hypothesis, featuring a parade of the usual cast of characters
[Col. Richard Weaver and Lt. James McAndrew (authors of the Air
Force's conclusion concerning Roswell) , Roswell-debunking
author Kal Korff who tried to demonstrate for viewers that it
was a Mylar-coated sponge that was found at Roswell, Charles
Moore (of Project Mogul fame) whose memory, unlike pro-Roswell
witnesses, is never questioned, Col. Joe Kittinger (of "dummies
from the sky" infamy) who shamelessly tried to suggest that he
was the model for the "red-haired Captain" in Glenn Dennis'
story, an so on], as the explanation of the 1947 events.

Several major motion pictures released before and after the
Roswell anniversary (The Rock with Sean Connery, Independence
Day with Jeff Goldblum, Will Smith and a cast of thousands, Men
In Black with Tommy Lee Jones and Will Smith again) as well as
some recent TV series (Dark Skies, The X-Files, etc.) have all
prominently featured or mentioned Roswell in the development of
their story-lines. A plethora of new books with Roswell in their
titles hit the book stores in time to try to cash in on the
"Roswellmania" of 1997: Beyond Roswell, UFO Crash at Roswell,
The Roswell File, and with at least one, The Day After Roswell,
making it to the New York Times best-seller list.

                  Case Closed?

Now, a year-and-a-half after those heady days, one may
justifiably ask, what has become of Roswell? As the song sung by
Peggy Lee laments, "Is that all there is?" No longer on evening
news broadcasts, is anything going on, or have things reverted
back to where they were prior to the anniversary? That would be
a sleepy little desert town proudly proclaiming, "Howdy, from
the Middle of Nowhere!", according to one pre-anniversary post
card. Hardly. In the town of Roswell, it can be reported that
new motels continue to spring up at a brisk pace to handle the
anticipated continuous stream of visitors to the International
UFO Museum there.

Roswell is now included as a "must-see" stop in most tour
packages to New Mexico and west Texas solely because of the
alleged 1947 incident. At the UFO Museum itself, besides its own
tour office, a growing research library and a regular schedule
of lectures, the exhibits continue to be expanded and updated as
new information is developed, and plans for a new,
multi-million-dollar facility on the edge of town are moving
along. Recently, the Museum welcomed its 500,000th visitor. More
and more in the minds of the public, the mere mention of the
town's name is becoming synonymous with UFOs. But what of the
Roswell Incident itself? Is it over, passe or, less likely,
solved? Has the Fat Lady, because of the continued absence of
verified "hard evidence", coupled with the passage of so many
years, finally sung on this one?

                 Disappointment

In 1994 and 1995, the U.S. Air Force offered up its first
official comments concerning the Roswell Incident since Gen.
Roger Ramey held his infamous afternoon press conference on July
8, 1947 during which he "emptied the Roswell saucer" by
contriving to "identify" the wreckage retrieved from the J.B.
Foster Ranch near Corona, NM by W.W. "Mac" Brazel [which was
later described by Maj. Jesse A. Marcel as being, "not from this
earth"] as nothing more than the prosaic remnants of a neoprene
rubber weather balloon and its attending aluminum-foil,
rawin-type, radar target.

This time, the Air Force finally admitted that their original
weather balloon story was wrong, that the wreckage was really
that of a neoprene rubber weather balloon and an aluminum-foil,
rawin-type, radar target [yes, Sports Fans, you read it
correctly] used in a then TOP SECRET project (Project Mogul)
which was attempting to detect Soviet atomic bomb detonations by
means of constant-level, balloon-borne acoustic sensors. While
the project was indeed TOP SECRET, the mundane equipment used in
it was not and was easily recognizable to military people and
civilians alike. In the end, the project was a failure as the
first Soviet atomic detonation was detected two years later in
August of 1949 by atmospheric chemical analysis - not by
acoustics.

In 1997, right before the beginning of the festivities in
Roswell (the timing was no accident in our opinion), the Air
Force staged a press conference announcing the release of a
follow-up report concerning the Roswell Incident which was
designed to try to counter the rumors of alien bodies reportedly
found at the alleged 1947 crash site [the 1994 and 1995 Air
Force reports did not address this issue at all]. They should
have left well enough alone. By claiming that stories of alien
bodies were probably attributable to high-altitude parachute
tests using anthropomorphic mannequins (i.e., "dummies")
conducted by the Air Force ten years after the Roswell Incident,
the Air Force and their eager supporters lost a lot of
credibility in the on- going debate. Reporters present at the
press conference were taken aback in amused disbelief upon
hearing this latest official "explanation" of Roswell, and the
so-called "Dummies from the Sky" hypothesis still evokes howls
of derisive laughter from both Roswell proponents and skeptics
alike. Unfortunately, the long-anticipated Government Accounting
Office's (GAO) report on Roswell, released in 1995, was
inconclusive.

Tasked by New Mexico Congressman Stephen Schiff to try to
locate a "paper trail" pertaining to the 1947 Roswell events to
see if the documents relating to it were properly handled and
classified, it was only able to discover and report that all of
the documents from the Roswell base encompassing the time-frame
of the 1947 incident had been destroyed without apparent
authority. With the death of Congressman Schiff in early 1998,
the case lost an important public advocate in the halls of
Congress, and the momentum gained for official involvement in
the case seemed to have waned.

        Renewed Energy and Commitment

In the Spring of 1998, the two authors met for the first time
in several years and agreed on the need to continue an
aggressive, proactive Roswell investigation, especially now,
with an increased sense of urgency since witnesses seemed to be
"dropping like flies" at what is now becoming an alarming rate.
At some point in the not too distant future, there will be no
first-hand witnesses left to interview. Even now, we are talking
with an increasing number of children and grand children of
deceased principals. We also felt that the case, as it currently
stands, is still incomplete and probably not entirely correct
[and we are not talking here about Project Mogul which had and
has absolutely no bearing on the Roswell events of July, 1947].

Believing that there was yet more to learn about those long-ago
events, the authors agreed to collaborate and, as a result,
made two research trips to New Mexico in 1998, one in May and
one in October, for the purpose of "mining" for new witnesses
and re-interviewing old witnesses. Contrary to finding a stale,
over-plowed landscape populated with well-worn paths and dry
holes, we were assuredly impressed by the number of new leads
that we were able to obtain, as well as some surprising new
twists in the testimony of "old" witnesses. Right now, we
believe that we are on the verge of a new, or at least a
modified, Roswell timeline and in possession of more leads than
we can ever hope to follow in our lifetimes, given our present
resources. The following is the authors' first collaborative
effort and represents our consensus as to where we believe the
Roswell investigation will be heading as we approach the new
millennium.

        The Search for Physical Evidence

No aspect of the Roswell investigation has been more
frustrating and less fruitful than the efforts of Roswell
investigators to turn-up or, in some cases, try to pry-loose "a
piece" of irrefutable hard evidence with "out-of-this-world"
properties that can be traced back to the 1947 incident. Time
and again, hopes are raised only to be dashed when the alleged
possessor of such an item cannot or will not deliver at the
moment of truth; or the claimed hard evidence turns out to be a
complete fiction (or, to be charitable, a "misunderstanding")
when the claim is investigated more closely; or when an artifact
actually does get into our hands, it turns out instead to be an
exotic piece of jewelry [such an example can now be seen
adorning a wall at the UFO Museum in Roswell].

During the Roswell Anniversary Days of 1997, Derrell Sims and
Paul Davids held an all too brief news conference to offer up a
piece of metal that they claimed came from the Roswell crash via
the all too familiar "unnamed source". They claimed that tests
had been performed on the artifact in question which suggested
an extraterrestrial origin for it and that, additionally, there
were other such pieces then being tested "at respected
universities" throughout the land which would no doubt also
prove to be of extraterrestrial "etiology". Dr. Roger Leir, a
member of that team, assures us that ongoing tests have also
proved positive. Unfortunately, in the year-and-a-half since the
press conference, Paul Davids has yet to learn the identity of
the "unnamed source". Not good.

In 1996, paranormal radio talk show host, Art Bell, came into
possession, again from an anonymous source, of small bits and
pieces of metal claimed to have come from the Roswell crash.
Metallurgical tests were performed, and the bits and pieces of
metal, known collectively as "Arts Parts", seemed to be made
mostly of aluminum but with a dash of a few other trace metals
for good measure. Is that it? Where do things stand now? It's
been three years now. More tests? Anybody heard? No follow
through. Fade to black.

When Roswell researchers obtain a lead that involves claimed
physical evidence, all other leads automatically go to the back
of the "queue" until the lead is exhausted (unfortunately,
usually as indicated above). However, we are confident that such
physical evidence is "out there" somewhere, and one of these
days, hopefully, sooner rather than later - more rather than
less, our frustrations will be rewarded. At present, our
investigation is in possession of several such leads that we
hope will bear fruit:

1. We are presently trying to enlist the cooperation of a
first-hand witness who claims to have actually held a piece of
something similar to Frankie Rowe's "memory metal" in his hands
within the past two years. We have gotten as far as having the
witness agree to meet with us personally to try to coordinate
with the owners of the artifact to let us examine it. It is
quite conceivable that by the time you are reading this we will
be meeting with all parties concerned.

2. We know of a retired MP (military policeman) whom we will
call "Dutch" who claims to have a piece of the Roswell wreckage
stored in his attic for safe keeping and who will supposedly
give up the piece to civilian investigators when he dies. But
when we talked to him, although in his late 70's, he sounded
like he was still in pretty good shape. How long do we sit
around and wait and do nothing? [and we are NOT remotely
suggesting anything like a Kevorkian intervention here, folks].

3. We have spoken several times to a relative of a well-known
Roswell personage who claims to know of parties who have pieces
of the Roswell crash material. When pressed further, he
identified one of them as none other than himself. When asked
for its provenance, he stated that it came, not from the craft,
but from "one of the bodies" from the crashed craft and that it
is currently being analyzed by degreed professionals in the
appropriate forensic fields. He claims that the artifact is not
a tissue or fabric sample, but "something else". He plans on
going public with this and other Roswell-related "evidence" in
his possession in 1999. We shall see.

4. There are several "proactive" steps that we are planning to
take to try to secure physical evidence originating from the
1947 Roswell crash. These are in the formative stages at the
moment as each requires resources outside the normal
resource-range of most Roswell investigators, including us.

The first project involves a full-scale archaeological "dig" at
the Foster/Brazel Ranch, site of the so-called "debris field".
Everyone agrees that something came down there in July, 1947
(even the Air Force agrees). The argument, of course, is about
just what came down. Archaeological consultants to our
investigation have told us that if pieces of whatever came down
in Brazel's pasture on that fateful day had lain on the desert
floor for even a period as short as one day, there is an
excellent chance that rodents of one sort or another [the area
is inhabited by prairie dogs and jack rabbits] would have
carried pieces of it into their nests. We know that whatever the
debris was, there were many, many small pieces of it scattered,
according to Jesse Marcel, over an area 3/4 mi. long by several
hundred feet wide. We also know that the material had lain on
the desert floor for not one but for at least four days, maybe
longer, ample time for eclectic rodents to conduct their
business. Having been to the Brazel site several times, rodent
holes as well as small sink holes indeed are in evidence [see
photos]. We are also encouraged to learn from our archaeological
consultants that what we seek (whatever it turns out to be)
should in all likelihood be waiting for us at a depth of no more
than 18 inches in soil that they term, "pack rat midden".

The second project is also located at the debris field site
located on the former Foster/Brazel Ranch. A half-dozen or so
first-hand witnesses have reported a long, fresh "gouge" or
"skid marks" running for some distance amongst the debris that
wasn't there prior to July, 1947 [the thought being that
whatever caused the debris also caused the "gouge"]. The "gouge"
was reported to have been visible at least for a few years after
1947 by several eye-witnesses, including Bill Brazel, Jr. and
Gen. Arthur Exon who flew over the site in 1949. It is not
visible today, having been filled-in by deposits laid down by
wind erosion, heavy summer rains and livestock traffic over the
ensuing years, but we know its former location from living
eye-witnesses. We also know from geologists with whom we have
spoken that we may be able to obtain a "fingerprint" of the
former "gouge", if there ever was such a deformation of the
landscape, by using a device known as a "GPR" (Ground
Penetrating Radar) which traverses the target area and produces
a readout or "fingerprint" of anomalies depending upon the depth
of the strata being diagnosed. Results from such a test would
amount to either positive or negative physical evidence,
corroborating or not corroborating this aspect of the Roswell
Incident. The problem, of course, is securing the use of a GPR
instrument for our purposes. At present, we have an offer from
a national laboratory for the loan of such equipment and have
had a meeting with a major university to sponsor and participate
in such a project.

The third project resulted from a "town meeting" that we held
in Corona, NM in October, 1998 seeking informants and/or
information relating to the 1947 incident. One of the items to
come out of the meeting was confirmation of a story that we had
heard before but could not "pin down", a story of a young fellow
who lived in the Corona area at the time named Fred Miller [he
was killed in Viet Nam in 1967]. Young Fred, according to
friends of his, had somehow obtained a number of pieces of the
Roswell debris from one of the crash sites and had shown pieces
of it around to a number of locals [confirmed by surviving
eye-witnesses]. As told to us, a piece of the "memory metal"
that Fred had in his possession had somehow made its way to the
senior prom one June night at Corona High School a year or so
after the incident [where, according to eyewitnesses, it was
passed around for amusement]. Word had it that Fred "stashed"
all of his Roswell material, as well as anything else he did
not want others to find - including some stolen or contraband
items - in his "personal cave". The problem was and still is
that there are many, many caves in the Corona area - too many
and too dangerous (rattlesnakes like to set up shop in them) to
try to examine for our purposes. To cut to the chase, on our
most recent trip to New Mexico, we were able to identify
"Miller's Cave". Do we have any brave spelunkers out there?

             Deathbed Confessions

In courts of law, so-called "deathbed confessions" are accorded
special weight and consideration from other testimony because
of the belief that when a person knows that he or she is
checking out for good, that person will want, in the end, to
have consciences cleared and truth to be his or her lasting
legacy. Perhaps the most significant "deathbed confession" to
date in the Roswell investigation has been that of the former
Provost Marshal at the Roswell Base in 1947, Maj. Edwin Easley.
When first interviewed by Roswell investigator, Kevin Randle,
all Easley would say was that he couldn't discuss the Roswell
Incident, that he was still sworn to secrecy. Over and over,
Easley would repeat that same phrase to each question that
Randle asked. Sometime thereafter, while on his deathbed, he in
fact confirmed to family members his participation in the
recovery of an extraterrestrial spacecraft and crew ["Ohhhhhh,
the creatures!"].

Just before he passed away in 1994, former Roswell base
adjutant in 1947, Maj. Patrick Saunders, wrote on a copy of The
Truth About the UFO Crash at Roswell (1994) that he sent to the
book's authors, Kevin Randle and Don Schmitt, this cathartic
statement, "This is the truth, and I still haven't told anyone".

As participants in the Roswell events of 1947 expire at an
increasing rate, it should be expected that we encounter more
confessions of the "deathbed" variety as time passes, and such
is indeed the case. A woman whose husband was an MP stationed at
Roswell in 1947 relayed to us the information that her husband,
on his deathbed four years ago, "confessed" to guarding the
perimeter - but not picking up the debris - at the Foster/Brazel
ranch site, while another woman told us that her husband, during
the last year of his life, in 1995, finally told her of his
involvement in the events. After seeing a show on TV that
featured the Roswell Incident, she at last asked him, "Well,
Dear, is it true?" He answered, "Well, I suppose that it's time
I should tell you. I've been meaning to for a long time".

He had been a cook with the 509th Bomb Group at Roswell in 1947
and confirmed to her that he was simply grabbed one day and told
to report to Building #84 (a hangar) on the base. He was given a
gun and told to stand guard at the hangar with other similarly
confiscated base personnel. While on guard duty, he stole a
look inside the hangar long enough to see debris scattered about
and "small bodies" being prepared for shipment elsewhere. Asked
if she believed her husband when he told her this, the woman
stated without hesitation or reservation, "Absolutely, he was
telling truth to me when he knew he didn't have much longer." In
another case, the granddaughter of someone involved in the
Roswell events (at this point, we do not know in what capacity
he was involved) contacted us to say that her grandfather had
just passed away and had left "documents" pertaining to Roswell
that would prove something extraordinary had happened there in
1947.

As this is being written, we have been negotiating for several
months to receive copies of some of these alleged documents
prior to making an expensive trip for a personal interview and
to review the originals. Finally, as this is written, we are
aware of a former officer who was stationed at Roswell in 1947
who is terminal and knows it. He has told his family that he
would like to make a statement concerning Roswell but at a time
of his own choosing. We have been in touch with the family who
has assured us that they will let us know when it is time.

               Reluctant Witnesses

To qualify as a "reluctant witness", one must be believed to
possess information about the Roswell events, either by being
involved directly, tangentially, or by being a relative of
someone who was, or by other means, and refuse to discuss it at
all (e.g., by citing a security oath, or by giving what is
believed to be false and misleading statements). By far, the
most famous (or infamous) of the "reluctant witnesses" still out
there - at least according to Roswell proponents - is the former
base Counter Intelligence Officer, Sheridan Cavitt, who
accompanied the 509th's Intelligence Officer, Jesse Marcel, to
the Foster/Brazel ranch to observe and retrieve material that
Marcel would later describe as having an extraterrestrial
origin.

In 1994, Cavitt confirmed his involvement in the Roswell
Incident for the first time to the Air Force's Col. Richard
Weaver at the same time he was still denying his involvement to
civilian Roswell investigators. Cavitt told Weaver that what he
saw on the Foster Ranch that day in 1947 were the immediately
recognizable remnants of a weather balloon and radar target
which they retrieved in short order. Cavitt's account,
therefore, is in conflict with those of other credible
eye-witnesses to the same events as well as with his own prior
statements of non-involvement.

The aforementioned Edwin Easley originally qualified as a
"reluctant witness" but then ceased to be so described when he
gave up his defense of, "I can't talk about it.", and finally
"came-clean". We currently have a number of such witnesses still
out there who refuse to talk, but for whom we can only hope that
they will someday relent and tell us what they know.

Such a witness is a former member of the 1395th Military Police
Squadron stationed at Roswell in 1947. When located living in
Pennsylvania near one of the co-authors, he confirmed that,
yes, he was stationed at Roswell in 1947 and, yes, he was indeed
involved in recovery activities there ["You mean that thing that
crashed into the side of a hill? Yes, I was involved, but that's
all I'm going to tell you."]. When asked why, he replied, "I'm
retired military, and I like things the way they are." End of
conversation.

Another fellow's name was passed along to us as a first-hand
witness still living in Roswell. According to our intermediary,
he drove a truck on the base in '47 when he drove right into the
recovery activities at the hangar (Bldg. #84). After seeing the
debris and the bodies, he was grabbed, stood spread-eagle
against the wall and threatened with his life. When questioned
in person, all he will tell us today is that he does not want to
talk about it. Asked if he would ever consider talking about it,
he replied that he wasn't sure, but that he was sure that he
wasn't ready to talk about it now. Wonderful.

Still another fellow, a former MP stationed at Roswell in '47
(confirmed by the base yearbook), gave us a preliminary
statement one evening after a lecture about being shown one of
the recovered bodies. Later, when contacted by telephone for a
follow-up interview, he denied being the person we were seeking
(because of his peculiar voice inflections, we knew we had the
right person). Nice.

There is yet another witness, still living at the relatively
young age of 58 years-old, whose identity is known to all
Roswell investigators. He saw everything and could solve this
case for everyone tomorrow [and put all of us out of our misery
in the bargain]. The problem is: we know who he is and where he
is, but no one has interviewed him as yet. Not for lack of
trying, however. He has the knack of being able to "disappear"
every time an investigator gets near, so far with a 100% success
rate. How long can his luck continue? We keep trying and hoping
and are open to suggestions.

Finally, we received an E-Mail from a gentleman who claimed
that his wife is friends with a woman whom she met when both
worked at Walker AFB (formerly Roswell Army Air Field) in
Roswell in 1960. According to the gentleman, his wife said that
the woman told her that she had been a nurse stationed at
Roswell AAF in 1947 and was there "when the little bodies were
brought in to the base hospital". In a follow-up phone call to
the gentleman and his wife, the wife made it clear to us that
her friend, who is still living, will deny everything if ever
confronted with this information. As things now stand, we only
know the alleged nurse's first name and the name of the town in
which she resides: Frustration City.

 New Witnesses, Old Witnesses and a New Crash Scenario

In addition to locating new witnesses to the Roswell events of
1947 [about 20 in number and still counting], our investigation
has made a special effort to keep in touch with "old" witnesses,
such as Bill Brazel, Jr., Walter Haut, Glenn Dennis, Frank
Kaufmann, Frank Joyce, Frankie Rowe and Jack Rodden, people who
have already gone on record with their stories. By revisiting
their testimony with them when we are in Roswell, we have been
able to glean new bits of information from them concerning those
long ago events which, when combined with the new information
that we are developing from the "new" witnesses, is causing us
to reconsider some prior conclusions as to what occurred, where
it occurred and when it occurred. Without giving the store away
here, a future article will suggest a new Roswell crash sequence
while answering the nagging question as to why the military kept
"Mac" Brazel in "custody" for so long.

               The Smoking Gun?

Mention must be made here of a recent development in the case
which is not a result of our own investigation [although we are
now participating - but more about that at another time]. It
concerns several photographs taken of General Roger Maxwell
Ramey in his Ft. Worth office on the afternoon of July 8, 1947
at his hastily-convened press conference during which he
announced to the world that what was recovered on the J.B.
Foster Ranch the day before by the Roswell AAF's Intelligence
Officer was "really" a misidentified weather balloon and an
aluminum-foil radar target [see discussion above under
"Disappointment"].

It has been known by Roswell investigators for years that, in
all of the Ramey photographs that were taken that day, he is
shown in each as kneeling on one knee beside the remains of a
decaying weather balloon and a ripped-up [but an otherwise
pristine, off-the-shelf] radar target strewn about the floor of
his office. In each photo, Gen. Ramey is shown holding what
appears to be a teletype message in his left hand as if it had
just been given to him prior to the start of his press
conference.

In all but one of the Ramey photos (did he realize his
mistake?), the hand-held teletype appears to be blank, but in
the one photo (the first one taken?) it is obvious that,
although somewhat crumpled in his hand, the memo appears to
contain writing. Under low magnification, it can be seen that
individual sentences are distinguishable from one another on the
memo, but their constituent letters or words cannot be made out
[it is interesting to point out that we had already attempted to
interpret the text of the Ramey memo in 1990 when we requested
Richard Haines to computer-analyze the photograph; but back
then, Dr. Haines was only able to identify a few individual
letters].

Today, combining extreme magnification with the latest
computer-enhanced analytical techniques, several teams of
photographic analysts remarkably claim to have been able to
"decipher" parts of sentences [i.e., actual words] on the
exposed portion of the Ramey teletype. While the teams are not
in total agreement at this time as to what the entire memo says
[e.g., one team claims to see the word "Magdalena", while
someone else reads it as "Roswell"], a single, glaring phrase is
clear to all who have had an opportunity to view an enhanced
picture of the memo, and in our opinion constitutes a "smoking
gun". There is no dispute whatsoever that the phrase, ". . .
victims [emphasis ours] of the wreck . . . forwarded to Ft.
Worth, Tex.", can be seen on the Ramey memo and, to us,
indicates that a weather balloon - Project Mogul or otherwise -
was NOT what crashed and was recovered at Roswell in July of
1947.

The memo, in our opinion, appears to have originated with Gen.
Ramey and probably went to either Col. William Blanchard,
commander of the 509th Bomb Group based at Roswell which was
under Ramey's direct command or to higher authorities in
Washington, D.C. The apparent "Ft. Worth connection" is also
especially interesting to us now since a new source to our
investigation had been leading us in that direction before news
of the Ramey memo analyses surfaced.

What is needed now is for at least two independent
investigations with no affiliations to Roswell, Roswell
witnesses or the various Roswell investigations to conduct their
own objective and impartial analyses of the Ramey photo/memo and
to publicly present their findings, whatever they may be.
Interestingly, the usual cast of Roswell debunking characters,
including the U.S. Air Force [all of whom accept the Project
Mogul balloon "explanation" for Roswell], has, to date, been
strangely silent concerning the Ramey memo.

Who "in the know" back in 1947 could have ever imagined that
Roger Ramey, "point-man" for the Roswell coverup, might one day
a half-century later have unwittingly provided us with the key
to unlock the door to the ultimate secret? Oh, irony of ironies.
Go figure.

   TJC/DRS






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 29

              Re: 1999 UFO Alien Abduction Conference Announced

From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 09:51:08 EST
Fwd Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 11:19:12 -0500
Subject: Re: 1999 UFO Alien Abduction Conference Announced

>Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 13:58:24 -0500
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net>
>Subject: Re: 1999 UFO Alien Abduction Conference Announced

>>From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
>>Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 09:28:07 +0000
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>Subject: 1999 UFO Alien Abduction Conference Announced

<snip>

>>If Kevin Randle were to fly himself in, would he be welcome to
>>address the conference? Certainly there should be a little time
>>available.

>Hi Roger,

>That would have been a possibility two weeks ago. We have since
>added Carol Rainey to the schedule (she is giving a talk on the
>role of the media re: UFOs and abductions) and as a result the
>schedule is now full. Carol is also 'local' and doesn't require
>special travel arrangements.

In talking with friends yesterday, and discussing Roger's idea,
I suggested that it would now be "too late" for such a plan to
work.

>It's only a _one_ day conference. If there was more time, and
>Kevin was willing to pay his own way, I don't see why he
>couldn't/shouldn't speak at any conference sponsored by IF. In
>fact he could have compensated himself by selling some of his
>books at our table during the event. There's more here than
>meets the eye though Roger. There was more than a little
>vitriol in Kevins' post about the conference. There are several
>conferences each year and 'for some reason' he has chosen to
>come out publicly and single out our event labeling it biased
>or one sided. I've never seen him post complaints about any
>conferences that he has participated in, or any others for that
>matter. How many of the conferences that have taken place could
>be considered "well balanced" in terms of presentation of
>opposing points of view? Not many I'm sure. But for some reason
>Kevin feels it's his duty to warn everyone about how biased
>ours is.

In many of those conferences the agenda is out there for
everyone to see. If Richard Boylan is the conference organizer,
then it is clear to everyone that nothing considered "negative"
will be presented. All New Age philosophy will be endorsed and
all evidences of scientific thought will be rejected.

The IF conference seemed to one that was going to be
scientifically oriented. I thought it would be a good arena in
which to introduce some thoughts about the abductions with an
eye to helping some of those who believe they might have been
abducted and who are looking for some answers.

>I don't quite get it, but then there it is. In spite of many
>differences of opinion and belief I have always liked and
>respected Kevin. This particular outing of his has me a bit
>baffled however. I am sorry that he has adopted this "negative"
>view of our event. Just three weeks ago he was asking to be
>invited as a participant. He seemed more than willing to
>associate himself and his name with us and our conference. Now,
>he's knocking us all over the internet.

It is not a negative view but a simple statement to suggest
that, in my opinion, a little balance could be used. The list of
the speakers (and here I may again irritate Jerry Clark) seemed
to have all come down on a single side in the debate. I have
read each of the books produced by the participants and can
guess at the direction they will take. I thought a cautionary
hand might round out the picture. That was really all that I
thought.

As for knocking you all over the internet, isn't that something
of an exaggeration? I personally posted my message twice, both
times to closed discussion lists. I have not posted it to any of
the open news groups, and in fact, haven't looked at any of
those in several months.

I also knew, when I posted the comments, that they would invoke
a number of nasty responses (not that I would consider that
written by John Velez nasty) and they have. It is clear that
many don't want to see anything that suggests an alternative
answer to any aspect of the abduction phenomena. When, in North
Carolina, I suggested only that we must do better than suggest
"there are no traditional sci-fi gods and devils" that
correspond to the abduction phenomena, there were those who
heard me attacking abductees. All I was saying was that we
could, if we looked, find various elements of the abduction
phenomena in science fiction and pop culture, and that we had
better find ways of dealing with that information rather than
simply dismissing it.

I'm sorry that so many took my comments as negative when they
were only a suggestion for some balance. Greg Sandow has
suggested that Jerry Clark (truly the historian of the UFO
phenomena) will provide that balance. I would, of course, have
preferred to make the argument myself, but that is not to be.

KRandle






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 29

              Re: 1999 UFO Alien Abduction Conference Announced

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 99 11:02:31 PST
Fwd Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 12:24:01 -0500
Subject: Re: 1999 UFO Alien Abduction Conference Announced


>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@connectmmic.net>
>Subject: Re: 1999 UFO Alien Abduction Conference Announced
>Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 23:28:17 -0500

<snip>

>>>From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
>>>Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 22:23:11 EST
>>>To: updates@globalserve.net
>>>Subject: Re: 1999 UFO Alien Abduction Conference Announced

<snip>

>Jerome,

>Please note that we are talking about a proven investigator,
>with lots of credentials, and about to publish a book on the
>subject of abduction.

>If things happened the way Kevin Randle implies they happened...
>THAT conference is, in my opinion, suspicious.

>You are perfectly correct in stating that the organizers have
>the right to invite whom they want to invite. But, isn't that a
>straw man argument? Of course, they have the right to endorse
>the point of view they want. But isn't that the real problem
>with ufology in general and abductions in particular: turning
>one's back on analysis and advocate "opinions" instead?

Serge,

No, it's not a straw-man argument, and Kevin himself has since
acknowledged that conference organizers on any subject can
invite, or not invite, whomever they choose, without being
singled out for criticism.

I have no idea what you mean by "turning one's back on analysis"
to "advocate `opinions' instead." Agree or disagree with them,
Hopkins and Jacobs have spent much time analyzing the abduction
phenomenon. Their opinions are not snatched out of thin air but
come from a considerable amount of personal investigation and
reflection. My opinions, right or wrong, come out of analysis
and investigation. So, for that matter, do Stan Friedman's.

Jerry Clark






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 29

              Re: 1999 UFO Alien Abduction Conference Announced

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 99 11:10:08 PST
Fwd Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 12:27:08 -0500
Subject: Re: 1999 UFO Alien Abduction Conference Announced


>From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
>Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 18:20:28 EST
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Re: 1999 UFO Alien Abduction Conference Announced

>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
>>Subject: Re: 1999 UFO Alien Abduction Conference Announced
>>Date: Thu, 28 Jan 99 10:43:04 PST

><snippety do dah>

>Jerry -

>I am surprised at the angry tone of your missive. Haven't you
>suggested to others that there are two letters - the one you
>write in the heat of passion and the one you send?

Kevin, I apologize if I sounded angry. I was merely annoyed at
what seemed to me your ignorance of or disregard for my
particular position on the abduction question, which is not the
same as Hopkins's or Jacobs's (though I like and admire both of
them and am proud to call them friends). My writing on the
subject of the general phenomenon has always been carefully
qualified and nuanced, to reflect the agnosticism that is, in my
judgment, the only intellectually defensible posture any of us
can take at this juncture. Even Phil Klass understands that my
position is not synonymous with the abduction-literalist view.

That said, my friend, let us go on to more cordial and
productive discussion. And of course I look forward to reading
your book.

All best,

Jerry Clark







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 29

              Re: 1999 UFO Alien Abduction Conference Announced

From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net>
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 10:42:27 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 12:31:37 -0500
Subject: Re: 1999 UFO Alien Abduction Conference Announced


>From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
>Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 18:20:28 EST
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Re: 1999 UFO Alien Abduction Conference Announced

>And of course the Intruders Foundation can invite whomever they
>want and they can promote whatever point of view they want. But
>when you move into a public arena, then you invite questions and
>comments and that is what I did.

Speaking only for myself, I'd welcome -- with loud cheers -- a
serious conference that considered all sides of the issue. If
somehow we could get responsible believers and responsible
skeptics together, talking about the same things, and truly
engaging each others' points, that would be a dream come true.
Especially if we had some neutral scientists involved...

Greg Sandow






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 29

               Abduction - The Issue Of Reality [was: 1999 UFO

From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net>
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 10:43:26 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 12:39:56 -0500
Subject: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality [was: 1999 UFO


>From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@connectmmic.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: 1999 UFO Alien Abduction Conference Announced
>Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 23:28:17 -0500

>But isn't that the real problem
>with ufology in general and abductions in particular: turning
>one's back on analysis and advocate "opinions" instead?

Where abductions are concerned, the skeptics are even more
guilty of that than believers. Note: this is NOT a comment on
Kevin, who's thoughtful about everything he does.

But typically abduction skeptics don't even mention the full
range of possible abduction evidence -- for instance, the claim
made by some abduction investigators that abductees corroborate
even tiny unpublished details in each others' reports. Note
again: I'm not insisting that this claim is correct, or that it
means abductions are real. More research needs to be done. I
_am_ saying that abduction skeptics rarely (if ever) mention it.

Documentation: Philip Klass, UFO Abductions: A Dangerous Game;
the NOVA episode on abductions; the 1996 volume of the journal
Psychological Issues, entirely devoted to abductions; Robert
Sheaffer's [hope I spelled his name right] new book on UFOs; a
recent book of collected UFO pieces (one on abuctions) from the
Skeptical Inquirer; many skeptical posts here, etc., etc., etc.

If anyone knows of an abduction skeptic who mentions this
pro-abduction argument, even scathingly, I'd love to know about
it.

Greg Sandow






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 29

                Re: Santilli Knew 'Tent Footage' Was a Fraud?

From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 12:22:27 +0000
Fwd Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 12:42:30 -0500
Subject: Re: Santilli Knew 'Tent Footage' Was a Fraud?


>From: Bob Shell <bob@bobshell.com>
>Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 09:53:20 +0000
>Fwd Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 10:51:22 -0500
>Subject: Re: Santilli Knew 'Tent Footage' Was a Fraud?

>>From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
>>Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 15:14:17 +0000
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>Subject: Re: Santilli Knew 'Tent Footage' Was a Fraud?

Previously, I had asked:

>>Just for the record, has it been determined that the film
>>Santilli bought is a dupe because the film stock is recognized
>>as such? Or was this determined by the "wind" of the film; i.e.
>>which side the emmulsion is on? Did you check the pieces you
>>have to see if it's an "A-wind" or a "B-wind"?

Bob replied:

>It has been determined because all of it has the distinctive
>signature of the Bell & Howell printer used to make the copy
>prints.  It also has a soundtrack (blank).

Weren't there field cameras capable of producing both optical
and magnetic soundtracks on the raw footage? I've got an old
Auricon that will produce a blank optical sound track on camera
original stock. What distinctive signature of the Bell & Howell
printer are you refering to? I'm not arguing, here; just
curious.

Moving on, Bob stated:

>... the cameraman claims he made the copies himself on a copying
>machine in the base lab.

I'm confused. I thought you previously said that the cameraman
fooled Santilli into believing the footage was camera original.
At least that's the impression I got from the following post you
offered which read:

>Ray doesn't want to acknowledge that he does not have, and
>has never had, any camera original film, just the copy
>print material foisted off on him by the cameraman (who
>apparently told him it was camera original material).

When did the cameraman admit that he lied to Santilli about the
footage? Was it before or after the testing of the footage?
Wouldn't Santilli have recourse in such an event?

Also, do you know the following info:

Was the film Santilli bought an "A-wind" or a "B-wind"?

Was it originally (by the cameraman) copied onto actual dupe
stock or was it simply copied onto camera grade B&W reversal?

Thanks,

Roger Evans






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 29

                  Re: Deficiency In SETI's Drake's Equation

From: Ed Stewart <ufoindex@jps.net>
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 09:16:00 -0800
Fwd Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 12:47:03 -0500
Subject: Re: Deficiency In SETI's Drake's Equation


>Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 14:05:37 -0800 (PST)
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj@proaxis.com>
>Subject: Re: Deficiency In SETI's Drake's Equation

>I was speaking in reference to Drake's equation and SETI's use
>of it on their website. There they listed N as the number of
>civilizations in our galaxy whose radio emissions are
>detectable. So that's their slant on it; I don't recall that
>Drake himself made that limitation, though radio emissions are
>his thing.

The factor in the Drake equation you mention refers to the
number of extraterrestrial civilizations that have achieved the
level of technology to be able to communicate with other
extraterrestrial civilizations. That question is all that it
refers to.

You miss the main point about the Drake equation.  It is only a
WAG - a wild ass guess. It is not a scientific formula. It is
only used as a tool to make people think about the
possibilities. Most of the questions it asks, we still don't
have a clue as what the real factors are to be imputed. It only
allows people to play a what if game about the realm of
possibilities. One can derive both an optimistic or a
pessimistic result depending on the factors selected.  Most of
the factors that anyone will pick are not based on real
knowledge simply because we yet don't know.

There is no agreement among SETI scientists of what the answer
should be. Every individual will choose their own factors.

As a consequence, both optimistic and pessimistic results
derived from the Drake equation are nothing but a WAG, never a
scientific solution to govern a scientific program. There is no
consensus what the output from the Drake equation should be.

The Drake equation does not influence the procedural searches or
ways of conducting research by the SETI community.

To make more of the Drake equation than what it is designed to
do, to make people think, is ludicrous and only shows the
ignorance of the individual that tries to interpret the Drake
equation otherwise.

Your "solutions" to the Drake equation are just as relevant as
anyone elses, wild ass guesses! They have nothing to do with
reality, SETI operations, or how the SETI research community
conducts science.

Ed Stewart
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ed Stewart ufoindex@jps.net|So Man, who here seems principal alone,
There Is Something         |Perhaps acts second to some sphere unknown.
   Going On!       ,>'?'<, |Touches some wheel, or verges to some goal,
Salvador Freixedo  ( O O ) |'Tis but a part we see, and not a whole.
----------------ooOO-(_)-OOoo------- Alexander Pope, Essay on Man -----







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 30

                 Re: Professional Status of Richard Hoagland

From: Dan Syes <dsyes@micron.net>
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 10:25:32 -0700
Fwd Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 16:16:05 -0500
Subject: Re: Professional Status of Richard Hoagland


>Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 18:23:27 -0600 (CST)
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
>Subject: Re: Professional Status of Richard Hoagland

>Hate to eat up bandwidth, but if anyone's interested, I'd be
>happy to upload a couple of pictures from my visit. Just don't
>call me a JPL or NASA confidant, professional or critic, like
>Hoagland. IMHO, the latter is a certifiable basket case who
>either knows better or is completely delusional or totally
>maniacal. Apart from anything Mr. Robert Stephens has to say
>about the issue, one way or the other.



Dennis,

I'd love to see the photos. If they are to big for this forum,
please mail them direct to me.

Thanks!

Eating my heart out....(your an evil man!) :-)






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 30

              Re: 1999 UFO Alien Abduction Conference Announced

From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 12:39:52 EST
Fwd Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 16:18:46 -0500
Subject: Re: 1999 UFO Alien Abduction Conference Announced


>From: Ted Viens <drtedv@freewwweb.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: 1999 UFO Alien Abduction Conference Announced
>Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 22:56:48 -0600


>Kevin,

>The failure is not with the readers but with the writer. Perhaps
>it was late when you composed your first response, perhaps you
>were weary.

>The apparent intent and the received impression was that you
>were faulting and diminishing the conference for not meeting
>your standards of broad mindedness and expressing your views.

You are probably correct about the writer failing to communicate
a point as well as it could be. I was attempting to point out
that, in my opinion, contrary to what had been stated by the
conference organizers, and based solely on the list of speakers,
that part of the question might not be addressed. They had
suggested it would be about what we know and how we know it. I
was suggesting that it might have a limited scope answering the
question (or questions) because of the participants invited and
we should just be aware of that.

>The most of us see the conference as sufficiently balanced if
>still rife with those with whom we perhaps have become too
>familiar.

>The more callous in the fringes of our group would consider
>this an opportunistic chance to promote your new book.

Or maybe as a reverse way of promoting the conference because
most of the dialogue has been about the conference.

>However, I have enjoyed your current works and look forward to
>another book from you.

Thank you.






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 30

               Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality [was: 1999

From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 12:53:44 EST
Fwd Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 16:31:55 -0500
Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality [was: 1999


>Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 10:13:53 -0800 (PST)
>From: Rebecca Keith <xiannekei@yahoo.com>
>Subject: Re: 1999 UFO Alien Abduction Conference Announced
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>

>>From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
>>Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 09:36:22 EST
>>To: updates@globalserve.net
>>Subject: Re: 1999 UFO Alien Abduction Conference Announced

>I'm not in the medical profession, so my thoughts are just that
>-- thoughts. However, I would like to know if Dr. Cone might
>have conferred with any neurologists because it seems to me, in
>my uneducated way of thinking, that there could be some
>neurological answers -- perhaps conditions, syndromes, diseases,
>etc., that we aren't even yet aware -- to some abductions
>stories.

To properly research a question many avenues must be explored,
and, of course, we walked down those avenues. Dr. Cone's
participation was a bonus because of his broad background in
psychology and his knowledge about the various psychopathologies
that can induce hallucination and delusion (many of which are
physical or chemical and can be reversed with proper treatment).

>>>Perhaps you could share some highlights of the new research
>>>with this list.

>>This is the most difficult of the questions because much of the
>>new research is somewhat complicated and without a proper
>foundation is going to sound extreme or will be rejected out of
>>hand. (Note to myself: Now I sound like Gary, though the
>>difference is, the book has been accepted by a publisher and if
>>they maintain the schedule, it will be available to all soon.)

>I understand about the complicated nature of these things, but
>I'm just really curious about an idea I've been toying around
>with for a while and that is Munchausen's and Munchausen's by
>Proxy (I'm sure I've misspelled that). Are there any comparisons
>made to these syndromes by Dr. Cone?

Certainly all of the above have an aspect of it. The work of
Michael Persinger concerning his Temporal Lobe seizures research
also provides some interesting insight into belief structure as
opposed to physical reality.

>>It does contain a lengthy discussion of hypnosis as an
>>investigative tool, suggesting many of the pitfalls of
>>hypnotically recovered testimony. The suggestibility of the
>>subject, for example, is something that we, as researchers, do
>>not seem to fully understand. What we see as a simple question
>>to gather more, and sometimes obscured, information, could be a
>>"demand" for information that the subject simply doesn't have.
>>To continue to probe for that information can induce a point
>>where the subject "invents" that information to satisfy the
>>researcher.

>Kevin, this is something I can speak of first-hand. I was
>regressed and I do have some false memories as a result. These
>memories aren't significant and I know the hypnotist did not
>implant them -- I created them. I didn't mean to, of course, the
>object was to try to get answers. Now, I'm stuck with these
>self-created anachronisms in these other memories that simply
>won't go away.

In some cases induced rather than implanted might be a better
word.

>It didn't take me long to realize just how difficult things
>could have been for me, if I had created some other kind of
>false memory.

>>This is why some states now prohibit witnesses who have been
>>hypnotized (questioned under hypnosis about the crime) from
>>testifying. It is simply too easy to implant information even by
>>the most careful of questioners.

>And sometimes the information isn't even implanted, the mind
>just creates it, as happened in my case.

>>There is also a section that expands on my MUFON presentation of
>>a couple of year ago. In that, I suggested that pop culture has
>>included all the elements of alien abduction. If we look to
>>science fiction, we can find everything we find in alien
>>abduction repeatedly. Some of the more recent of the abduction
>>scenarios, such as the suggestion of genetic engineering and
>>manipulation are rare but they do exist.  The 1960s movie,
>>'Village Of The Damned', based on an earlier book, 'The Midwich
>>Cuckoos'* suggested the abduction of women for the purpose of
>>creating a genetic hybrid, for example, is out there. We simply
>>cannot dismiss these parallels, but must be able to account for
>>them.

>I'll let Jerry argue with you about your pop culture theory,
>because, I thought that presentation was excellent.

Thank you, and I believe you understood the point of it as well.

>Did you complete you PhD, btw? If so, congratulations.

Instead of working on the dissertation. I'm hung up in the
results chapter which requires a good description of the
statistical analysis of the raw data. Which is the best
statistical method to use (I think, in this case, the multiple
regression and the chi-squared) and then how to explain all the
results in the proper format... not necessarily so they can be
understood, but making sure the typeface is right, the font size
is proper, the page numbers appear where they are supposed to
be, that no words are misspelled, and that the margins are set
correctly. Ah, the frustration of graduate work.

>>I'll try to add more about this later, but the entire context
>>of the book is needed to understand some of the points of view.

>Appreciated and thanks!

 KRandle





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 30

                Re: Santilli Knew 'Tent Footage' Was a Fraud?

From: Bob Shell <bob@bobshell.com>
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 14:02:52 +0000
Fwd Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 16:34:08 -0500
Subject: Re: Santilli Knew 'Tent Footage' Was a Fraud?


>From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
>Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 12:22:27 +0000
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Santilli Knew 'Tent Footage' Was a Fraud?

>Bob replied:

>>It has been determined because all of it has the distinctive
>>signature of the Bell & Howell printer used to make the copy
>>prints.  It also has a soundtrack (blank).

>Weren't there field cameras capable of producing both optical
>and magnetic soundtracks on the raw footage? I've got an old
>Auricon that will produce a blank optical sound track on camera
>original stock. What distinctive signature of the Bell & Howell
>printer are you refering to? I'm not arguing, here; just
>curious.

The original was supposedly shot on a Filmo 70 hand crank
camera, so should not have had a sound track.  The Bell & Howell
printer leaves a white area on both sides of the film frame when
making the copies, and this film has that.

This is old news, Roger, and I'm sorry if I don't recall all the
little details of things that happened in 1995.  But we had a
number of motion picture experts verify about the B & H printer
at the time.

>Moving on, Bob stated:

>>... the cameraman claims he made the copies himself on a copying
>>machine in the base lab.

>I'm confused. I thought you previously said that the cameraman
>fooled Santilli into believing the footage was camera original.
>At least that's the impression I got from the following post you
>offered which read:

AFTER we proved to Santilli that it was copy film he asked the
cameraman and he said something like "of course it is copy film,
I made the copies myself on the printer at the base lab."
Whether Ray has tried to get recourse for the deception I do not
know.

>Also, do you know the following info:

>Was the film Santilli bought an "A-wind" or a "B-wind"?
>

Honestly, I don't recall at this point.

>Was it originally (by the cameraman) copied onto actual dupe
>stock or was it simply copied onto camera grade B&W reversal?

Apparently it was copied onto dupe film since the only edge
codes on it are those printed through from the original.

Bob





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 30

                     Researchers Study New Mexico, Mars

From: Steven L. Wilson Sr <Ndunlks@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 14:23:32 EST
Fwd Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 16:37:32 -0500
Subject: Researchers Study New Mexico, Mars


 Researchers Study New Mexico, Mars

 .c The Associated Press

  By CHAKA FERGUSON

 CARLSBAD, N.M. (AP) -- Deep in the subterranean reaches of the
Spider Cave, there is little to sustain life. No sunlight,
little water and few nutrients make this one of the most hostile
environments in the world.

 Yet somehow, scientists have found microscopic creatures
dwelling in the eternal darkness. By probing the nooks and
crannies of the Spider Cave, they hope to answer a question for
the ages: Is there life on Mars?

 NASA planetary scientists are eager to review the findings.

 ``The work is very relevant to Mars because we know the surface
of Mars is as dead as a doornail and any life there -- if it
exists -- would live underground,'' said Chris McKay, a
planetary scientist at NASA's Ames Research Center in Moffett
Field, Calif.

 Spider Cave, in Carlsbad Caverns National Park, feels as if it
might be on another planet. Dripping stalactites protrude from
the cave's ceiling, reaching out like great tentacles. And
gaping pits -- like giant moon craters -- are scattered
haphazardly across the cave floor. The silence is as deep as the
darkness.

 The cave got its name from the thousands of daddy longlegs that
once inhabited its entrance.

 Caves are isolated ecosystems low in organic nutrients. But the
microbes in the Spider Cave can survive without sunlight and
thrive on the basic elements -- such as iron, manganese and
sulfur -- found in the cave walls. Researchers have found
similar microbes living in other remote places -- polar caps,
ocean bottoms and mountain tops.

 Scientists think life might be able support itself on a planet
like Mars by feeding on underground chemicals, similar to the
way bacteria in the Spider Cave survive, said Penelope Boston,
part of a team of University of New Mexico researchers who have
been studying the cave for four years.

 Wearing elbow and knee pads and toting hard hats with
spotlights, scientists trek to the Spider Cave's research site
by hiking down a mile-long, winding trail and over rugged
terrain into a canyon. That's the easy part.

 They then descend 10 feet to the first narrow opening and worm
through a tight, 50-foot passage, no more than 3 feet wide and 2
feet high in some places.

 ``It's like being born again,'' quips geology student Justin
Pearce.

 After the first belly crawl, the cave opens into an intricate
web of passages that run up to four miles in every direction. A
marked trail keeps cavers from getting lost inside the
bewildering maze.

 The search for microscopic organisms may not have the appeal of
the search for intelligent life, but NASA's McKay said it's just
as important.

 ``If you look at our own planet Earth, for half of its history,
life was microscopic,'' McKay said. ``It's the first step to
more complicated life.''

 AP-NY-01-29-99 1306EST

  Copyright 1998 The Associated Press.  The information
contained in the AP news report may not be published,
broadcast, rewritten or otherwise distributed without  prior
written authority of The Associated Press.






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 30

              Re: Sandow: UFO Research Teeters Between Science

From: Sean Jones <seanj@tedric.demon.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 08:00:48 +0000
Fwd Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 16:49:06 -0500
Subject: Re: Sandow: UFO Research Teeters Between Science


>From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@get2net.dk>
>Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 04:17:49 +0100 (MET)
>Subject: Sandow: UFO Research Teeters Between Science And Insanity
>To: updates@globalserve.net

>Source: The Village Voice,

>http://www.villagevoice.com/features/9904/sandow.shtml

>Stig

>Mind-Body Problem

>by Greg Sandow.

>UFO research teeters between science and insanity

<huge snip for brevity>
>Tell us what you think.

>editor@villagevoice.com

>*Copyright/Fine Print


Thanks for posting this article Stig.

Gary, what can I say, :-) What a lovely sane article about and
insane subject. Keep up the good work.

--

    In an infinite universe infinitely anything is possible.
                       Sean Jones
 Homepage--http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Zone/1745/index.htm
            UFO page--http://www.tedric.demon.co.uk/







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 30

                          Re: Abduction Hypotheses

From: Kevin Randle KRandle993@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 16:00:34 EST
Fwd Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 16:58:24 -0500
Subject: Re: Abduction Hypotheses


>From: John W. Ratcliff <jratcliff@worldnet.att.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Abduction Hypotheses
>Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 22:18:19 -0600

>Hmmmm... Kevin, I guess it's just a tiny quibble about semantics,
>but I wonder about your choice of the word 'explanations', as
>opposed to 'hypotheses..'

Of course. Hypotheses is a much better word.

>I've read some of your books and think you've made some nice
>presentations on nuts & bolts UFOs. If I recall correctly, I
>don't believe you have ever claimed to have been abducted by
>aliens. Neither have I. However, I do know a bunch of people
>who have had anomalous experiences which fall into this
>category.

Have not claimed to be abducted, have not claimed to have seen
super-secret reports by various military organizations, have not
claimed to have witnessed the craft or bodies. Have interviewed
a bunch of people who believe they have been abducted. Have
talked to, interviewed, and discussed the topic with those who
investigate abductions.

>The only conclusion I have been able to draw is that other
>people have different experiences than I have. I wouldn't claim
>to speak with any authority about the experiences of a rape
>victim, or the holocaust, and I'm uncomfortable doing the same
>for my alien abductee friends.

>The 'explanations' I have heard put forth in the past almost all
>presume a form of mental illness, which makes me a bit
>uncomfortable. More to the point, most 'explanations' offered
>haven't been endorsed by the victims themselves.

>You can ignore the abduction phenomenon, that is if it ain't
>happening to you. The evidence for the phenomenon is at the same
>level as the proffered by my Christian friends who claim their
>faith is valid because Christ has touched them in their lives. I
>note that Christ is a 2,000 year old dead Jew, and has never
>touched _my_ life, and can easily dismiss their proposal. The
>same thing can be said about the abduction phenomenon. Ignore
>it, it has nothing to do with Roswell, nuts & bolts UFOs, and
>any physical evidence which might be related to it. Without
>having been personally abducted by an alien, I don't know how
>much you or I can really say about the subject.

If we accept the idea that we must have had the experience to
comment on it intelligently, aren't we suddenly rejecting
science to a certain extent? It isn't necessary to have the
experience to understand it. Research is based on the idea of
the outside observer. If we have interviewed hundreds of
abductees, then can't we comment intelligently on the
information recovered?

And, if we can't, then isn't the work of Hopkins, Mack, Jacobs,
et.al (and I've used those three for no other reason than they
have been among the most vocal, I could have easily included,
Carpenter, Smith, Sprinkle, for example) going to waste? I don't
think any of them claim to have been abducted either (though
Sprinkle has, as has Richard Boylan).

I believe that we can comment, intelligently on the things we
haven't experienced. While I did not live through the Civil War,
I can understand the hardships of the soldiers and the
motivations of them by studying history, reading their journals
and diaries, and reading the newspapers from the time. That is
all part of research.

>Like I've said in previous messages, whenever I get abducted by
>aliens, contacted by Jesus, or have a Roswell UFO crash in my
>front yard, I'll be sure to give you a more refined hypothesis
>based on my new set of experiential data.

 If the UFO crashes in your front yard, or even the back, please
let me know.

KRandle







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 30

                          'Apocalypse Pretty Soon'

From: Alex Heard <aheard@wired.com>
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 12:40:31 -0800
Fwd Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 16:53:43 -0500
Subject: 'Apocalypse Pretty Soon'


Greetings:

This is a general message to participants in this forum. My name
is Alex Heard; I�m an editor at Wired magazine and the author of
Apocalypse Pretty Soon, a new book about American subcultures at
the turn of the millennium. Two chapters in the book are
UFO-related, and I think you'll find them interesting and
entertaining. One is about the Unarius Academy of Science, the
famed UFO-oriented religion in Southern California. Another
concerns Dr. Steven Greer, a contactee who takes groups of
people out at night to try and "initiate" contact with
extraterrestrials. (I first wrote about Dr. Greer years ago in
Outside magazine, an article that is still distributed by the
Fund for UFO research.) I approached these stories with an
attitude of friendly skepticism and, I hope, good humor. Please
let me know what you think.

Excerpts from the book -- dealing with other aspects of the
millennium, including "Earth Changes" and the far right -- are
available in the February 1999 issues of Wired and Outside. I
also have a web site where I'll keep track of millennial and
futuristic groups as the year 2000 approaches.

Please take a look. The Web address is:

http://www.apocalypseprettysoon.com

Thanks very much for looking this over. Feel free to write
or call if you have any questions.


Sincerely,


Alex Heard
(415) 276-4939
aheard@wired.com






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 30

                Re: Santilli Knew 'Tent Footage' Was a Fraud?

From: Ralf Zeigermann <kag15@dial.pipex.com>
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 21:28:28 +0100
Fwd Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 17:00:25 -0500
Subject: Re: Santilli Knew 'Tent Footage' Was a Fraud?


>From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
>Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 15:14:17 +0000
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: Santilli Knew 'Tent Footage' Was a Fraud?

>>From: Bob Shell <bob@bobshell.com>
>>Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 07:58:48 +0000
>>Fwd Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 11:28:25 -0500
>>Subject: Re: Santilli Knew 'Tent Footage' Was a Fraud?


>If the cameraman did quickly make a secret copy for himself, it
>probably was a contact print and not an optical print.
>Therefore, the emmulsion on the print that Santilli bought (and
>gave you pieces of) would be on the opposite side than if it
>were original film from either a field camera or optical
>printer. This is assuming, of course, that Santilli is truthful
>that what he gave you is directly from what the cameraman sold
>him.


Hi all,

This is all getting a bit funny now. I can imagine the
'cameraman' developing the film in a tent, but quite honestly I
simply can't imagine him making a duplicate in a tent(!). As far
as I know you need some more bits and pieces of equipment for
dupes than just a tank...

So if we are talking about a 16mm duplicate here, who made it?

Cheers,

Ralf







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 30

                         Re: Santilli's Film Scraps

From: Gildas Bourdais <GBourdais@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 16:38:45 EST
Fwd Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 17:04:45 -0500
Subject: Re: Santilli's Film Scraps


>Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 08:07:05 +0000
>Subject: Re: Santilli's Film Scraps
>From: Bob Shell <bob@bobshell.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>

>This could also account for Capt. McAndrew's comment to me
>that he had seen the same film in Air Force archives.

>Bob


To Bob and List:

This is one of the most important informations that you have
made, it seems to me.

And here is a simple question:

Did capt. McAndrew tell you, even rougly, when he saw that "same
film" in the Air Force archives?

At least, did he see it before, or after the release of the film
by Santilli?

If he saw it after, it would not be worth mentioning since, very
soon, thousands of copies were distributed worldwide: it could
be any of these copies!

So, I suppose he meant that he had seen it before. Then, I don't
see many possibilities:

1) The AA footage is an authentic military film,

or

2) It is a fake made by the military, or a related agency. (In
this case, it could well be a fake close to a real one).

In both cases, Santilli had only a copy of it, and was of course
anable to give a foot of original film for datation, but this is
not a key point in this context. It could have been shot any
time.

3) Here is another possibility: captain McAndrew lied to you!

Then the question is: why?

Is he another Richard Doty??

If so, what about the "Roswell Report, Case Closed" authored by
the same?

The third hypothesis does not seem to make much sense, so that
we are back, most probably, to 1) or 2).

Anybody has an idea about the correct answer?

Gildas Bourdais






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 30

                          Re: Abduction Hypotheses

From: Sean Jones <seanj@tedric.demon.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 21:28:02 +0000
Fwd Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 17:08:43 -0500
Subject: Re: Abduction Hypotheses


>From: John W. Ratcliff <jratcliff@worldnet.att.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Abduction Hypotheses [was: 1999 UFO Alien Abduction Conf...]
>Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 22:18:19 -0600

<huge snip>

>(10)........add you own 'explanations', or hypotheses as you
>will. Lord knows I have, but none of them seem to wholly
>address the concerns of my friends who have been abused by these
>experiences.

John, no insult but you have missed two alternatives that have
solicited investigation.

10) Sleep disorder's/paralysis.

11) Astral travel/ OOBE's.

Both offer _credible_ possibilities.

>Like I've said in previous messages, whenever I get abducted by
>aliens, contacted by Jesus, or have a Roswell UFO crash in my
>front yard, I'll be sure to give you a more refined hypothesis
>based on my new set of experiential data.

BTW you missed out the proverbial "landing on the lawn". Unless
you are a keen gardener who would be extremely dissed at such an
event :-)


--

    In an infinite universe infinitely anything is possible.
                       Sean Jones
 Homepage--http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Zone/1745/index.htm
            UFO page--http://www.tedric.demon.co.uk/







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 30

                    Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality

From: Sean Jones <seanj@tedric.demon.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 21:43:02 +0000
Fwd Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 17:15:12 -0500
Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality


>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
>Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 08:55:29 EST
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality [was... 1999 UFO Alien...]

Hi Jim

>>On a serious note, I'd like to stay out of this one as it is
>>entirely personal, IMHO, and one which ruffles feathers
>>instantly if you even dare to suggest that there might be other
>>things to explain _some_alleged_ abductions.

I know I said I wouldn't comment of this but......

>True Sean.....

>The experience leaves one exceedingly disturbed, is entirely too
>realistic and remains in the memory longer than the worst of
>recurring dreams. IF it continues off and on over a lifetime,
>the results of such a personal encounter are fascinatingly
>personal. It is like getting raped, altho being a guy, I can
>never truly relate to that.

I do not doubt for one instant just how disturbing such an event
would/can/is be.

>I do not even begin to understand what, how and why, I only know
>this... to the experiencer, it is more real than real. Very
>real.... very, very real.

>I have been having a dialog with some others in the same boat.
>The most recent discussion led to the issue of reality. We have
>all had recurring dreams. Dreams often leave you with a
>"feeling." The feeling left is real enough, but there is the
>knowledge that the feeling, while very real, is the remnant of a
>dream experience.

When I was a child I used to have a recurring dream about
floating around outside my house at that time. I know about such
a things as Astral travel <can't do it now I'm all grown up :-(
> but it could still have been a dream...

>The experiencer of this abduction phenom is also left with a
>real feeling. However the reason for the feeling is not a dream.
>There is always, or most of the time anyway, the knowledge, firm
>and unshakeable, that there was no dream. This was something
>experienced. I wish I could relate it more clearly than this. An
>example....

This feeling, could it be as intangible as "faith" but just as
convincing?

>I was a rather bright little guy growng up. I knew instinctively
>that there was no Santa Claus. I understood that Captain Video
>was a story. Even at age 3, 4 and thereabouts. My realization of
>what was real and what was imagined was very distinct. My
>parents always knew that I had a pretty good grip on reality.

>But from a very young age, I distinctly remember being able to
>glide along a long, round corridor. I was always in the company
>of some others behind and in front. I floated above the floor
>and every step I took was impossibly long... many many times my
>height.

>The experience was so real, that I would practice, at age 4,
>standing on the bathroom scale, looking at the needle, knowing
>with no doubt whatever, that I could become weightless by
>concentrating hard.

I believe that levitation has been proved and to apply it to something I
mentioned earlier, could it _only_ have been a dream?
>
>Of course, not having Gripple then, I was not able to do so. But
>the memory is still with me today, just as real, just as vivid,
>just as strongly compelling now, as it was 51 years ago... like
>ti was last night.
>
>Associated with that memory is the knowledge that i was able to
>float thru the window, fly up to the "hospital" over my house in
>an ambulance of strange design, to a structure which even today,
>precludes my being able to look up at any structure without the
>gravest of phobic fear... make that terror.
With no insult intended or suggested.
Did you know that childhood fears can pervade even unto retirement?
>
>I am Thomas the doubter. Show me, let me see it, understand it,
>look at it, define it and categorize it. Let me see the damned
>equation. No? Then it does not exist.
That's a shame really, but I can see where you are coming from.
>
>Why then this predelisction over a belief system including
>ascended masters (saints?) and God? Beats the shit outa me.
>Except that I have arrived at it on what remains of my
>intellect.

My belief in God has nothing to do with my intellect, only my
"gut feeling". So I am in awe that you can believe by intellect,
again no insult intended or suggested.

>Steven Hawking was able, thru physics and cosmology, come to the
>conclusion that God can exist in the reality of mathematics and
>physics.

Steven Hawking is a genius without a doubt, so if he says God
can exist how can people doubt it :-)

>Logic when confronted by emotion, has not a chance in this
>reality.

That's for sure :-)

>Dr. Gesundt.
>A very old fool for my age.

Jim you are only as old as the woman you feel, or you are only
as old as you feel, take your pick :-). Me, on some days I feel
a hundred, not bad considering I'm only a third of that.

--

    In an infinite universe infinitely anything is possible.
                       Sean Jones
 Homepage--http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Zone/1745/index.htm
            UFO page--http://www.tedric.demon.co.uk/







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 30

                  Re: Deficiency In SETI's Drake's Equation

From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj@proaxis.com>
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 13:52:45 -0800 (PST)
Fwd Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 17:17:33 -0500
Subject: Re: Deficiency In SETI's Drake's Equation


>Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 09:16:00 -0800
>From: Ed Stewart <ufoindex@jps.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: Deficiency In SETI's Drake's Equation

>>Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 14:05:37 -0800 (PST)
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj@proaxis.com>
>>Subject: Re: Deficiency In SETI's Drake's Equation

>>I was speaking in reference to Drake's equation and SETI's use
>>of it on their website. There they listed N as the number of
>>civilizations in our galaxy whose radio emissions are
>>detectable. So that's their slant on it; I don't recall that
>>Drake himself made that limitation, though radio emissions are
>>his thing.

>The factor in the Drake equation you mention refers to the
>number of extraterrestrial civilizations that have achieved the
>level of technology to be able to communicate with other
>extraterrestrial civilizations. That question is all that it
>refers to.

However, the SETI web site has put their own spin on it, and
lets N be the number of civilizations in our galaxy whose RADIO
emissions are detectable. Go check it out. Since even SETI
scientists can acknowledge the probability that a large fraction
of ET civilizations would be thousands or millions of years past
the stage where they had first developed radio communications,
with emissions powerful enough to reach nearby stars, the
deficiency in the SETI website version of Drake's equation
should be obvious -- ETI would have developed much more
efficient methods of communication.

>You miss the main point about the Drake equation.  It is only a
>WAG - a wild ass guess. It is not a scientific formula. It is
>only used as a tool to make people think about the
>possibilities. ....

That is a given, Ed. Each of several components within it are
arguably uncertain by huge factors. The real point is, SETI
scientists nevertheless like to couch their SETI research within
the framework of some equation, and the Drake equation is the
best they have. Go check out their website to see where it's
mentioned that those working on particular grant projects  are
doing research that fits into this component or that within
Drake's equation; e.g., a biologist may be working on some
detail within molecular biology that could lead to an improved
estimate of the factor fc, which is the fraction of
life-supporting planets where life actually develops (assuming
no alien seeding). Therefore one way to approach such scientists
is through Drake's equation.

There may be some small fraction of them who could understand
how plausible it is that ET civilizations, advanced millions of
years over us, would have long since discovered us, rather than
us becoming the first to discover them. And that the science and
technology of ETI would have gone way past the stage where their
space flight would be restricted by rocketry and relativity,
etc.

  Jim Deardorff






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 30

                    Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality

From: John Rimmer <magonia@magonia.demon.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 21:55:28 +0000
Fwd Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 17:19:26 -0500
Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality


>From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: 1999 UFO Alien Abduction Conference Announced
>Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 10:43:26 -0500

<snip>

>But typically abduction skeptics don't even mention the full
>range of possible abduction evidence -- for instance, the claim
>made by some abduction investigators that abductees corroborate
>even tiny unpublished details in each others' reports. Note
>again: I'm not insisting that this claim is correct, or that it
>means abductions are real. More research needs to be done. I
>_am_ saying that abduction skeptics rarely (if ever) mention it.

The problem with this is that these researchers refuse to give
us the details of the tiny unpublished details, claiming (with
some logic) that if they did so it would 'contaminate' future
reports. Consequently we have to take this all on trust.

--
John Rimmer
www.magonia.demon.co.uk
Abandon hope all ye who press "enter" here.





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 30

                    Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality

From: Rebecca Keith <xiannekei@yahoo.com>
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 14:18:31 -0800 (PST)
Fwd Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 17:23:02 -0500
Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality


>From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: 1999 UFO Alien Abduction Conference Announced
>Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 10:43:26 -0500

>>But isn't that the real problem
>>with ufology in general and abductions in particular: turning
>>one's back on analysis and advocate "opinions" instead?

>Where abductions are concerned, the skeptics are even more
>guilty of that than believers. Note: this is NOT a comment on
>Kevin, who's thoughtful about everything he does.

I consider myself a skeptic and that doesn't mean I'm a
nonbeliever. By contrasting skeptics being more guilty than
believers, you are suggesting I'm a nonbeliever.

>But typically abduction skeptics don't even mention the full
>range of possible abduction evidence -- for instance, the claim
>made by some abduction investigators that abductees corroborate
>even tiny unpublished details in each others' reports. Note
>again: I'm not insisting that this claim is correct, or that it
>means abductions are real. More research needs to be done. I
>_am_ saying that abduction skeptics rarely (if ever) mention it.
>Documentation: Philip Klass, UFO Abductions: A Dangerous Game;
>the NOVA episode on abductions; the 1996 volume of the journal
>Psychological Issues, entirely devoted to abductions; Robert
>Sheaffer's [hope I spelled his name right] new book on UFOs; a
>recent book of collected UFO pieces (one on abuctions) from the
>Skeptical Inquirer; many skeptical posts here, etc., etc., etc.

>If anyone knows of an abduction skeptic who mentions this
>pro-abduction argument, even scathingly, I'd love to know about
>it.

Should skeptic claim that this is a fact? Should he/she say "it
is claimed..." or what?

I'm just guessing here, but perhaps Brookesmith mentions
something similar in his abduction book? Doesn't he interview
Betty Hill who says something about abductees getting together
at group meeting and comparing notes?

I'm not saying that abductees don't corroborate tiny unpublished
details and I'm not saying that they incorporate details from
other accounts into their own stories, but it is a possibility
in some cases, no?

I need to organize my thoughts a little more clearly on this,
but the days of abductees claiming to have no prior knowledge of
abductions stories are over, IMO. And if my opinion is correct,
it would appear to me that it would be very difficult to
establish tiny details from abductee accounts if one wanted to
study that particular aspect.

Rebecca






                         The UFO UpDates Archive
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 30

                           Russian Plasma Steath?

From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@get2net.dk>
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 23:17:57 +0100 (MET)
Fwd Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 17:26:01 -0500
Subject: Russian Plasma Steath?


Source:

http://www.ufomind.com/military/aircraft/skunkworks/mailing/msg02028.shtml

Stig

***

Skunk Works Mailing List

Russian plasma stealth?

Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 15:57:55 +0100 (MET)
From: pharabod@in2p3.fr
Subject: Russian plasma stealth?



In attachment is an alleged Russian ITAR-TASS agency release
about a new way of obtaining stealthiness, via the use of
"plasma". They say that it's or will be far better than the US
Lockheed Skunk Works or Northrop way.

J. Pharabod




Author = Philip Kaploun

Russian Low Observability Technologies Data Released

Russian Scientists Created Revolutionary Low Observability
Technologies

Moscow, January 20. Nicolai Novichkov, ITAR-TASS information
agency

Research team of the Recearch Center named after M.V. Keldysh
has developed new technologies allowing dramatic decrease in
aircrafts' radar observability. Russian approach to low
observability (LO) technologies is completely different from US
Stealth and offers complete furtiveness of the protected object
at a significantly lower price. An exclusive interview about
these technologies was conducted by Nicolai Novichkov, ITAR-TASS
with director of the Center, academic of Russian Scientific
Academy Anatoliy Korteev.

 As academic explained, American approach to LO (Stealth
technology) applied on B-2, F-117A, and fifth generation fighter
F-22 "Raptor" is based on the following principles. The
airframes of these aircrafts are designed to minimize their
radar cross section (RCS), avoid all possible elements of the
structure, which could reflect electromagnetic radiation. In
order to minimize reflected radiation radio absorbing materials
(RAM) are also applied to the surface of the structure. The main
drawbacks of the Stealth technology are its negative effects on
the flight and agility characteristics of the stealth aircrafts.

Russian scientists approach the issue from the other direction.
They proposed to create a plasma formation around protected
object, which prevents radars from seeing it. Thus,
aerodynamical characteristics of the plane itself do not suffer.
Without interfereing with technical characteristics the
artificially created plasma cloud surrounding the plane
guarantees more than hundred times decrease in its
observability.

The physics of plasma protection can be described as following.
If an object is surrounded by a cloud of plasma, several
phenomenas are observed when the cloud interacts with
electromagnetic waves radiated by enemy radar. First, an
absorption of electromagnetic energy occurs in the cloud, since
during plasma penetration it interacts with plasma charged
particles, pass onto them a portion of its energy, and fades.
Second, due to specific physical processes, electromagnetic wave
tends to pass around plasma cloud. Both of these phenomenas
results in dramatic decrease of the reflected signal.

Static and flight experiments proved the effectiveness of this
technology. The first generation devices, producing plasma field
surrounding an aircraft and decreasing reflected signal were
created in the Center. Later, a possibily of creating second
generation advanced systems (capable of not only decreasing
reflected signal and changing its wavelength, but also producing
some false signals) was discovered. Such systems significantly
complicate determination of actual aircraft's speed, its
location and leads to development of completely new approaches
to LO provision, unachievable to conventional Stealth
technology. Furthermore, the weight of the systems developed in
Russia do not exeed 100 kg, and power consumption ranges from
kilowatts to tens of kilowatts.

Advances in development of the third generation LO systems
allowed to clear the systems of first and second generation for
export, commented academic
Anatoliy Korteev.

26/01/99
(c) ITAR-TASS,

Translation by Philip Kaploun.



This archive of mailing list messages is provided as a free
public courtesy. It is maintained automatically. The webmaster
has no control over content, does not review these messages and





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 30

                   {99} Part 1 United Kingdom UFO Network

From: Sean Jones <tedric@TEDRIC.DEMON.CO.UK>
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 21:49:29 +0000
Fwd Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 17:35:10 -0500
Subject: {99} Part 1 United Kingdom UFO Network

------ /  /  //  ____//     /---------------------------------------
 U K  /  /  //  ___/ /  /  /                        29th January 1999
     /  /  //  /    /  /  /  N E T W O R K                  Issue 99
--- (_____//__/    (_____/------------------------------------------

The United Kingdom UFO Network - a free electronic magazine with
subscribers in 58 countries.

This issue comes in 3 parts. If any part is missing please mail:
ufo@holodeck.demon.co.uk giving the issue number. The issue will
be reposted to you. Please put the details as below in the
subject section e.g.  Repost {99} part 1, part 2 or part 3.

In this issue:


Editorial
-------------------


United Kingdom News
-------------------

[UK 1] Show planned for Dolly parting
[UK 2] UK UFO Sighting
[UK 3] UFO `Buzzed' Airliner at Manchester Airport
[UK 4] Close encounters focus attention
[UK 5] WATCHING THE WORLD: The Menwith Hill base
[UK 6] Science, Logic and the FTL Debate
[UK 7] Mission Sets Out To Find Water on Mars


World News
----------

[W 1] US Government faces Kennedy film case
[W 2] Astronomers detect sun-like star
[W 3] Coded greetings to aliens
[W 4] Injuries caused by UFO claims woman's life
[W 5] Real-life X-File? Computer pioneer quits to chase UFOs
[W 6] New Russian Mig fighter
[W 7] Extraterrestrial Civilisations: Coming of age in the Milky Way
[W 8] Experts Estimate 125 Billion Galaxies In The Universe
[W 9] NSA ban Furbies

Book serialisation
------------------

A FEARFUL SYMMETRY

A TRUE STORY OF ALIEN INTRUSION INTO HUMAN LIVES

By D. Lynne Bishop


Statement, Subscription Information, IRC connecting
---------------------------------------------------

How, where, and maybe even why, to find us - and what to do when you
get there.

----------===============******************===============----------

Editorial
---------

Well here we are, one issue away from the magic 100, and another
new editor. Some of you might know me, my name is Sean Jones.

Dave has asked me to create this issue of the ezine because he
doesn't want the ezine to become stale and boring so he feels
that varying the editor will provide a nice change each issue.
Hopefully this will mean that the ezine will stay fresh and
exciting. I certainly hope so.

The number of sightings seems to have fallen off a little this
year, but there is usually a seasonal low around the beginning
of the year anyway, so we'll just have to wait and see just what
develops.

Another thing of interest to look for this year will be a
decline in crop circles. Why a decline you ask. Well what with
Matthew Williams and Paul Damon coming clean last year and the
Farmers Digest program on BBC1 a few weeks ago debunking the
whole issue I honestly believe that the phenomenon will be
dramatically reduced this year. Hopefully enough to see only
genuine crop circles and no fakes or copycat circles. We will
have to wait and see just what happens on that front of ufology
this year. Watch this space as we will keep you informed of any
developments.

We have yet another packed issue, chock full of interesting and
varied news from the world of ufology, so with no more waffle
from me, lets be away.

UK 1

Source: ITV Teletext News
Publish Date: Friday 8th January 1999

Show planned for Dolly parting

Dolly, the world's first cloned sheep, is to be stuffed and put
on display after her death, it has been revealed.

The Roslin Institute team which created her has made a deal with
the National Museums of Scotland to preserve the sheep for
future generations.

Dr Mark Shaw, the NMS keeperm of geology and zoology, said Dolly
was a "20th century scientific icon".


[UK 2]*******

From: "Robert Newton" <Isaac@gravity7.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: UFO Sighting

A friend of mine says he saw a black triangle flying at about
40-50 ft at about 20-30 mph at 6-7pm last night, outside St. Ive
near Liskeard, Cornwall.  It had no hump, characteristic of
stealth aircraft but had conventional looking lights at the rear
corners.  It  flew level for a few second and then accelerated
at a steady rate at a 40 degree angle nearer to Liskeard untill
out of sight.  Did anyone else see anything?


[UK 3 ]******

uk.ufo.nw says: Readers may be interested in these files with
regards to the British Airways near miss at Manchester airport,
mentioned below...

UFO `BUZZED' AIRLINER AT MANCHESTER AIRPORT

A British Airways passenger jet had a close encounter with an
unidentified flying object while landing at Manchester Airport
in January 1995. The Boeing 737, flight BA5061, with 60 people
on board, was overtaken at high speed by a wedge-shaped craft as
the plane descended through 4,000ft on the final stages of a
journey from Milan.

This zip file contains a Real Audio file interview with the 1st
Officer Mark Stuart and a text file containing the official CAA
report and numerous newspaper articles.

File size = 100Kb

Send your request to: ufo@holodeck.demon.co.uk

In the subject area of your mail put:

REQUEST BRITISH AIRWAYS SIGHTING

[UK 4 ]******

From: "Terry W. Colvin" <fortean@primenet.com>

Close encounters focus attention

Two close encounters with a triangular flying object have
focused attention on LoFLYTE reconnaissance planes ...

On 7 June 1996, at about 6 pm, an Aer Lingus jet had a very
close encounter some 9,000ft (2,750m) above Stevenage, about 30
miles (48km) north of London.  The aircraft was en route from
Dublin to London's Stansted airport, when the pilots were forced
to take evasive action after spotting an unidentified object
hurtling towards them.  The object flashed past the right-hand
side of the jet seconds later, only some 200-300 yards
(180-275m) away and 100ft (30m) below. Both pilots reported
seeing what looked to be a red aircraft with blue and white
stripes - one of the pilots believing it might have been of
military origin.  This possibility was dismissed after the Civil
Aviation Authority (CAA) comprehensively ruled out a Red Arrows
Hawk, the similar Gnat, or an unregistered, ex-military
aircraft.

Although an extensive search of radar recordings and radio
transcripts failed to produce corroborative evidence, the CAA
conceded that the pilots saw something and agreed in some detail
on their descriptions.  The identity of the intruder was,
however, "impossible to assess" and "likely to remain a
mystery".

There are obvious parallels between this incident and the 6
January 1995 airmiss near Manchester airport.  On that occasion,
First Officer Mark Stuart "instinctively ducked" as
wedge-shaped object seemed destined to collide head-on with the
British Airways Boeing 737.  The unknown object streaked past
the aircraft's right-hand side, so fast that it could only be
described as dark coloured, with what might have been a black
strike visible along its side. Commercial Air Transport Airmiss
Report No. 2/95 affirmed: "There was no known traffic in the
vicinity at the time and no radar contacts were seen."

As the Aer Lingus encounter also featured the absence of
corroborative radar tracks, the CAA concluded: "This meant that
members could feel reasonably certain that what had been seen
was not an aeroplane."

Yet the previously-published Manchester airmiss report noted:
"The lack of a radar contact is not necessarily unusual if
weather suppressers are in use on radar, particularly if the
object generates a poor radar response.  In these conditions the
radar can interpret a non-transponding (primary) contact as
weather, and therefore disregard it."  In either event, neither
bore the hallmarks of a conventional aircraft.

One candidate cited for the Aer Lingus incident is the LoFLYTE
(Low Observable Flight Test Experiment) hypersonic aircraft, a
triangular- shaped 'waverider'.  A revolutionary design enables
it to 'surf' on a high pressure shock-wave field, generated as
the aircraft travels faster than the speed of sound. When a
prototype was unveiled on 2 August last year, the LoFLYTE was
warmly received in some quarters as a likely explanation for UFO
sightings around the globe.

In a widely reported article, Maurice Chittenden wrote in The
Sunday Times: "Since 1990 there have been unexplained reports of
flat, wedge- shaped objects seen by pilots near air force bases
in California and as far afield as Belgium."

The notoriously sceptical Mr Chittenden now believed that "those
UFO sightings might have a simple explanation after all: a
secret, triangular-shaped aircraft that can fly at more than
twice the speed of Concorde".  This sounded promising and
Belgian TV news reports announced the long-awaited explanation
for the 1989/90 flap.

There is, however, one point which appears to have been swept
aside in the enthusiasm to embrace the LoFLYTE theory.  The only
LoFLYTE which had rolled off the production lines was an 8ft 4in
(2.5m) remotely-piloted model.

After the unveiling, Topher Kersting, Marketing Coordinator for
Accurate Automation Corporation, a prime contractor for the
joint NASA and US Air Force project, confirmed: "The next
version, pending the successful completion of the forthcoming
flight test, is intended to be a 23ft (7m) unmanned remotely
piloted vehicle capable of hypersonic flight.  What is beyond
that is anybody's guess."

On 16 December, the conceptual 100in (2.5m) model had its maiden
flight at Mojave Airfield, California, and remained airborne for
34 seconds, reaching an altitude of about 150ft (46m) before
experiencing flight-control difficulties and an undignified
landing. Speculation abounds that a full-size version is already
in operation, but it is at odds with such evidence.

Kersting also confirmed that the photograph released by Accurate
Automation Corporation was a computer generated Photoshop(TM)
composite, created by a colleague and himself.  "Just because
you see a picture on a cloud background doesn't mean that the
plane has flown," he cautioned.

In the United States, the Center for the Study of Intelligence
recently published a newly declassified document entitled A
Die-Hard Issue: CIA's Role in the Study of UFOs, 1947-90.

Author Gerald Haines, the National Reconnaissance Office
historian, claims that many UFO sightings could be explained by
the CIA's top secret U-2 spy-plane.  Checking with the Agency's
U-2 Project Staff in Washington, Air Force investigators were
able to confirm this, but to protect the spy-plane's secrecy
were forced to explain the sightings as natural phenomena.

The Royal Air Force and the US Air Force are represented on the
Joint Airmiss Working Group, which investigates incidents in UK
airspace. If a UK airmiss did involve a known, highly classified
aircraft, could its existence be acknowledged, or like the U-2,
would its continued secrecy override all other considerations?
It seems all we can deduce with some certainty is that the
LoFLYTE project isn't likely to be responsible for any UFO
reports.

At least, not yet.
J.E.


[UK 5 ]******

uk.ufo.nw says: Readers may remember in the last issue we
printed Graham Birdsall's editorial from the latest issue of UFO
Magazine. In the editorial he mentions that he recently had an
article printed on the front page of the Yorkshire Evening Post
newspaper regarding RAF Menwith Hill.

We would like to thank the reader who sent us in the url for
that news paper and also David Hartshorne, Head of Library for
the YEP who sent us Graham  Birdsall's article.

Source: Yorkshire Evening Post newspaper Publish Date: 17th
November 1998

Spy base links up with space

WATCHING THE WORLD: The Menwith Hill base

THE US communications base at RAF Menwith Hill is to play a
front line role in a "Star Wars" system to warn the Americans of
ballistic missile launches anywhere on earth. New radomes at the
base on the outskirts on Harrogate will be directly linked to
American infra-red eyes in space and will be operational by the
millennium. The change of direction at the controversial
listening centre has been confirmed by the Ministry of Defence.
Previously the only comment about the erection of the two new
radomes - the distinctive golfballs which can be seen at the
base - has been local concern about the extension of the area of
the base. Today Civil Liberties expert Norman Baker, Liberal
Democrat MP for Lewes in Sussex, said the plan "compromised
Britain's sovereignty". He claimed the adaption of the
communications base as a super- early warning centre was proof
the Government had become unable to control the activities of
the base. He said: "In the EEC there are already major worries
over revelations that Menwith Hill can monitor communications
throughout the European Union and America could use that
information for their economic advantage. This step outside
common communications is very worrying." In a written
Parliamentary question Mr Baker asked the Secretary of State for
Defence "when the two radomes which are to be part of the space-
based infra red system will be constructed." A written reply
from Armed Forces Minister Mr Doug Henderson said: "Construction
of the two radomes at RAF Menwith Hill is due to begin in
November 1999 and is scheduled for completion in February 2000.
The radomes will support the new US Space Based Infra-Red
System, providing early warning of ballistic missile launches."
A spokesman for the Ministry of Defence refused to comment
further on activities at Menwith Hill. Mr Baker said his further
Parliamentary questioning showed 1,370 American personnel were
now on the base.  He said: "I believe this is a raid on our
sovereignty and the Government can no longer control what
happens at Menwith Hill. We are now being used as Airstrip 1 in
the missile issue." Command A spokeswoman for the Campaign for
the Accountability of American Bases, better known as the
Menwith Hill peace campaigners, said: "We are appalled and
outraged, but it is not a surprise. It moves Menwith Hill to a
totally different level. "It was a major target as a command and
communication centre, but its new role makes it even more
important. This is another huge reason why Menwith Hill should
not be here and why at the very least it should be accountable."
Graham Birdsall, editor of Ilkley-based Quest Communications, an
organisation which monitors earthly aerial movements, space
phenomena and reports of UFOs, said: "I am not that concerned
about the function of monitoring what happens on the planet.
What I find fascinating is the emphasis that this programme
gives to monitoring deep space. "That will be its capacity and
it is slightly ironic bearing in mind years of denial about
space reports of unidentified craft."

[UK 6]********

Science Logic and the FTL debate.

        Many things have been said about travelling at speeds
faster than light but is it really possible? Science fiction
stories since the sixties have theorised the mechanics of faster
than light drive, but science has always stood solidly behind
Einstein because of E=MC2, which basically says that the speed
of light is the speed limit of the universe. What I am going to
bore you with now is why I believe popular science is wrong and
the old science fiction stories are in my opinion, right.

        What is not well publicised by the various mental giants
of today's popular science is that quite often in the past big
name scientist's have been either mistaken or totally wrong
about some things. These self same scientists would have the
great unwashed general public, that's you and me, believe that
science is never wrong. Now I could make this article a massive
debate about the number of times scientists have been wrong in
the past (and present) but that really isn't my intent at the
moment. Suffice it to say that scientist have made enough
mistakes in the past for me to be able to confidently say they
are bound to make some more mistakes now and in the future.

        I'm sure you have all heard or read about hyperspace and
warp drive (who hasn't seen Star Trek or Star Wars?) and that to
exceed the speed of light you need some sort of device that
circumvents the known laws of physics. This is certainly the
most likely method of exceeding light but is it the only one?
I'm not so sure. Another thing you might have heard a little
about is tachyons. It has been theorised (but not proved
according to some learned friends of mine) that tachyons travel
faster than light and thus appear to us mortals to travel back
in time. Now a little while back Gunter Nimtz at the University
of Cologne(1) transmitted a signal of a Mozart's Symphony  No40
in a photon beam and they measured the time taken and "proved"
that is was some 4.7 times faster than light. I'm sure some of
you have heard about this but have you heard about Nichola
Tesla? He performed a similar test back in the twenties that
sent a signal at twenty seven times faster than light! (2)

        Surely now you would have thought that popular science
would take this into account and say "well perhaps faster than
light is possible" but no popular science is still rock solid
behind Einstein, seems the man was never wrong, but ah! He was.
Did you know he made a blunder which he called his great
mistake?(3)  No? Well even the man made "God" of today's popular
science made mistakes. Now I don't mean to mock the man, not at
all, I just want to point out to the people that would have you
believe that he was the greatest that even the vaunted Einstein
made mistakes too.

        Now today's science says that to exceed the speed of
light is not possible because of the amount of energy it would
take and that matter is affected by these extreme speeds which
makes it impossible for a solid object to travel faster than
light. But. My argument is Are the scientists saying faster than
light is not possible just because they don't know how to do it?
Take an example and compare it with this scenario. Just two
weeks before Neil Armstrong landed on the moon there was many
popular scientists of the day saying that it was not possible to
leave the confines of this glorious planet that gives us mortals
life. But if we was to take the information back a hundred years
into our past and tell the scientists of the day about man
walking on the moon what do you think they would say? In my
opinion they would say that it is not possible and then come up
with information which they believe correct as to why it is not
possible. I think that we are still in the same situation. Until
some fantastic engineer or amazing piece of technology falls
into our hands that shows that faster than light travel is
possible scientists will say that it is not possible.

        Exceeding the speed of light is not possible because it
violates all the known laws of physics. I have been told this
most emphatically by several educated and very intelligent
people. BUT my answer to that is what about the laws of physics
that we don't yet know? What about new discoveries that are
found each day? Do they all reinforce current scientific
thinking or do some challenge it? Science is continually being
updated with new discoveries each day and why is it that
scientists are still saying that certain things are impossible?
Is it because they will have to re-write their books from
scratch or because they are afraid of that the universe is
bigger than they first thought? By the way did you read in a
magazine a little while back about science has just had to issue
a statement about the size of the universe, they were wrong!(4)

        Also another point about the planetary system that we
live in, NASA scientists are not sure about the gravity outside
Pluto's orbit. No I don't mean the Disney character I mean the
planet. It was recently announced that Pioneer 10 and 11 have
slowed down in space. "We've been working on this problem for
several years, and we accounted for everything we could think
of," says NASA planetary scientist John Anderson. So far he and
other scientists have not found any reason for the spacescrafts
"wierd behaviour". They are beginning to think that it must be
"extra gravity" - and that would send a lot of theoretical
physicists back to the drawing board.(5) Now it looks like not
even NASA knows all about the galaxy that we live in, so what
about the rest of the universe.

        Stanton Friedman, nuclear physicist, has shown how
faster than light travel need not be necessary due to time
dilation at near light speed, but that's okay for the travellers
but what about the people they leave back home? The people back
home won't feel the time dilation so to them their intrepid
travellers will be gone for a life time, will that be a
realistic form of travel between the stars, after all that is
the whole reason for travelling faster than light. The distance
between stars makes visiting them damn nigh impossible unless we
can exceed the speed of light and get to them in a "reasonable"
travelling time.

        I am not a scientist and I feel that science has been
wrong in the past and undoubtedly it will be wrong in the
future, and I still feel that science is wrong about faster than
light travel being possible. Do you?



copyright Sean Jones 18Dec1998

Source's
(1) Photon speed testing done by Gunter Nimtz at the University of
Cologne (Source New Scientist April 1995)
(2) Quote from UFO Updates http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates/1998/dec/m
01-025.shtml
Re- Mars MARCI EDL Movie, by Mike Christol + The Zeneth Factor Video
(3) Einstiens "Great mistake". (Still tracking the *exact* quote)
        Any person who can supply the quote, could you please email me
directly at
        <quote@tedric.demon.co.uk>
(4) Universe size statement, source Scientific American
http://www.scientificamerican.com/
(5) UFO Magazine Jan1999

[UK 7]*******

>From  Vash@geocities.com

Source The Daily Telegraph  7th Jan 1999

Mission Sets Out To Find Water on Mars

The hunt for water on Mars has begun in earnest, with a fleet of
Nasa spacecraft and seed-like mini-sensors heading for the red
planet at 17,400 miles per hour.

The Mars Polar Lander was launched from Cape Canaveral on Sunday
and will join the Mars Climate Orbiter, launched in December,
and the Global Surveyor already in orbit around the planet.

"People like Herschel and Schiaperelli saw ice caps appearing
and receding on Mars 200 years ago", said Professor Colin
Pillinger of the Open University, where a team is also working
on experiments for a Mars probe.  "Now we're going to find the
real scientific truth about ice on Mars."

The space fleet is the result of a change in Nasa thinking.
"There was a period of going through the solar system, one
mission at a time, visiting planets here and there," said
Pillinger.  "Then they realised a series of shots to one
location would save on development costs because 90 to 95 per
cent of the cost of a mission is taken up with development. Make
a second one and its almost free".

Global Surveyor and Climate Orbiter will survey landing sites,
then guide the Lander down to the edge of the Southern Ice Cap,
a region seen from aerial survey to have a curious layered
land-form.  The orbiters will then form a high-speed
communications relay from Mars back to Earth.

The Lander carries a suite of sensors and imaging devices as
well as a 6ft-long robot arm equipped with a camera.  Directed
by ground control, the arm will dig a trench, then load a tiny
sample into a mini-oven that will rapidly heat the soil.
Scientists hope that vapour released by the soil will finally
reveal the presence of water on Mars.

Polar Lander is also carrying a tiny microphone, which will send
the first audio signals back to Earth from the Martian
landscape.

Article by John Pratty.


---continued in part 2 ------





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 30

                   {99} Part 2 United Kingdom UFO Network

From: Sean Jones <tedric@TEDRIC.DEMON.CO.UK>
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 21:48:01 +0000
Fwd Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 17:35:40 -0500
Subject: {99} Part 2 United Kingdom UFO Network

------ /  /  //  ____//     /---------------------------------------
 U K  /  /  //  ___/ /  /  /                        29th January 1999
     /  /  //  /    /  /  /  N E T W O R K         part 2 - Issue 99
--- (_____//__/    (_____/------------------------------------------

The United Kingdom UFO Network - a free electronic magazine with
subscribers in 58 countries.

This issue comes in 3 parts. If any part is missing please mail:
ufo@holodeck.demon.co.uk giving the issue number. The issue will
be reposted to you. Please put the details as below in the
subject section e.g.  Repost {99} part 1, part 2 or part 3.





[ W 1 ]******

Source: ITV (Independant TeleVision) news text service
Publish Date: Friday 8th January 1999

US Government faces Kennedy film case

The US Government may have to pay up to 30 million US Dollars in
compensation for use of the film footage of President Kennedy's
assassination in Dallas in 1963.

The heirs of the late Abraham Zapruder, who took the 26 second
film, have been offered 3 million dollars from the Justice
Department.

The problem arose after the much used film passed into public
ownership in August under the Federal law. A panel will decide
the amount.


[W  2 ]******

Source: ITV Teletext News Publish Date: Saturday 24th October
1998

Astronomers detect sun-like star

Astronomers have detected for the first time a disc of debris
orbiting a sun-like star paired with a planet.

They said these features in the constellation Cancer looks more
like our solar system than any yet found.

The orbiting disc is made up of dust, comets and other cosmic
leftovers, and it extends for billions of miles beyond the star
known as 55 Cancri.

[W  3  ]******

Source: ITV Teletext News Publish Date: Saturday 9th January
1999

Coded greetings to aliens

A coded greeting to aliens is to be beamed into space by
scientists from a radio telescope in the Ukraine.

It will contain a greeting, a description through maths and
physics of who we are, and a request for a reply.

In 1974 the Arecibo radio telescope in Puerto Rico blasted a
similar message towards the constellation Hercules.

[W 4 ]*********

From: bernhard.nahrgang@ob.kamp.net (Bernhard Nahrgang)

Source: MUFON Date Posted: January 5, 1999 Subject: Injuries
caused by ufo claims woman's life

MUTUAL UFO NETWORK 103 OLDTOWN RD. SEGUIN, TX 78155

December 30, 1998

For Immediate Release:

INJURIES CAUSED BY UFO CLAIMS WOMAN'S LIFE

Betty Cash, one of three people injured in a UFO close encounter
near Huffman, Texas, on December 29, 1980, died on the 18th
anniversary of the event, in Birmingham, Alabama. She had been
in poor health ever since the encounter. At the time of the
event, Mrs. Cash operated her own businesses near Dayton, Texas.

Betty Cash, along with Vickie Landrum and grandson Colby
Landrum, encountered a huge UFO accompanied by military
helicopters on a dark road in the east Texas Piney Woods. They
were exposed to radiation from the object, which caused extreme
medical problems such as burns, eye damage, hair loss, diarrhea,
and vomiting. Although they and others observed a large number
of military helicopters along with the UFO, the U.S. Government
refused to acknowledge the event or assist them in any way.

After the encounter, Betty Cash was hospitalized and treated for
burns and the other maladies. The extent of the injuries was so
great, she was forced to close her businesses and never worked
again.  He life became a series of hospital stays, many of them
in intensive care. Eventually, she developed cancer, which was
successfully treated. In November 1998, Mrs. Cash suffered a
stroke. On December 29, during her recovery, an unusual turn of
events claimed her life.

Mrs. Cash was a hero in the fight against government UFO
cover-ups and brought hope to other victims of UFO incidents.
She was devoted to family and friends and never allowed her
illness to prevent her from helping others to cope with the
trauma of UFO close encounters.

For further information, contact John Schuessler, MUFON's Deputy
Director of Administration, and primary investigator of Mrs.
Cash's UFO incident, at (303) 948-6224, FAX (303) 948-6225, or
e-mail at: schuessler@mho.net.


[W  5 ]******

Source: Reuters News Publish Date: Saturday 3rd January 1999
From: bernhard.nahrgang@ob.kamp.net (Bernhard Nahrgang)

[W  ]******

Source: Reuters News Publish Date: Saturday 3rd January 1999
From: bernhard.nahrgang@ob.kamp.net (Bernhard Nahrgang)

Real-life X-File? Computer pioneer quits to chase UFOs

By Andrew Quinn

SAN FRANCISCO, Jan 9 (Reuters) - In the X-Files it would be
called the case of the CEO and the UFO.

Joe Firmage, who at the age of 28 has made not one but two
mega-fortunes as a computer pioneer in California's Silicon
Valley, has quit the $2 billion company he helped found to
promote what he calls ``the most important news event in 2000
years'' -- his belief that many of today's scientific advances
came from space aliens.

``Why would a young, successful CEO risk his reputation on
something this fantastic?'' Firmage told Saturday's San
Francisco Chronicle in announcing his departure from USWeb/CKS
(Nasdaq:USWB - news), an Internet marketing and consulting
company based in Santa Clara, California.

``Because I believe so much in this theory. And I am in a unique
position to communicate an extremely important message. I have
the money, credibility, scientific grounding, and faith.''

Firmage has been dubbed the ``Fox Mulder of Silicon Valley''
after the hero of the ``X-Files'' television series, and his own
beliefs seem strangely parallel to the dark mix of UFO contact
and government conspiracy that lie at the show's core.

Backed by his immense resources, Firmage has sought to prove a
variety of theories regarding UFOs, including one which holds
that many recent scientific advances including semiconductors,
fiber optics and lasers can be traced to a purported alien
spaceship crash in Roswell, New Mexico, in 1947 that was covered
up by the government.

``Outright rejection of the evidence without comprehensive
review of the research in print across hundreds of books is
close-minded, unscientific and indeed irresponsible in the
extreme,'' Firmage wrote in one recent essay.

``It is also quite understandable given decades of government
disinformation which, right or wrong in its genesis and
continuation, was specifically designed to create a 'giggle
factor' surrounding the subject.''

Firmage's credentials as a UFO buff are matched by his track
record as a computer industry entrepreneur.

A physics major at the University of Utah, Firmage was 18 when
he formed his first company, Serius, which specialized in
writing computer operating system codes. That was sold to Novell
in 1993 for $24 million, and Firmage served as Novell's vice
president of networking strategy until 1995 when he left to form
USWeb.

That company, which helped companies to develop Internet
strategies, completed a merger with CKS Group Inc. last month to
form a $2.1 billion powerhouse that employs 1,950 people.

During the merger, however, Firmage was edged out as CEO by a
board of directors who did not see eye to eye with him on the
UFO issue. Now, Firmage says, he is leaving the company for good
to pursue his beliefs.

``I want to ensure that the company is not impacted in any
negative way,'' Firmage told the Chronicle, adding that he was
not pressured to give up his job as chief strategist.

Robert Shaw, who took over as CEO of USWeb/CKS, said Firmage
himself had suggested the move ``given the market exposure
associated with his outside interests.''

``Joe is a visionary and he should be quite proud of what he
accomplished. This move should demonstrate to the public and the
employees that he's always put the interests of the company
first,'' Shaw told the newspaper.

Firmage has already laid the groundwork for a campaign to
publicize his UFO beliefs. He has set up the International Space
Science Organization to promote his views, sunk $3 million into
an endeavor dubbed ``Project Kairos'' aimed at preparing
humanity for alien contact, and posted a 600-page manifesto,
entitled ``The Truth'', on his website (www.thewordistruth.org).

Included in ``The Truth'' are new documents from a source
Firmage calls the ``Deep Throat of Cyberspace'' which he claims
back up his space alien theories.

One of the documents is a purported 1947 memo from President
Harry Truman to Secretary of Defense James Forrestal that sets
up a secret U.S. government operation dubbed ``Majestic Twelve''
to investigate extraterrestrials.

Another is an alleged June 1947 letter from Albert Einstein and
Robert Oppenheimer to scientist Vannevar Bush giving advice on
how to deal with alien visitors.

Firmage's departure from USWeb/CKS was greeted with a shrug by
many of his Silicon Valley contemporaries, who have long scoffed
at his otherworldly beliefs.

``I've met a bunch of the valley's pioneers, and none of them I
know are aliens,'' said John McLaughlin, a Silicon Valley
historian. ``The valley was built on ingenuity and hard work.''

Even Silicon Valley's ``official'' UFO organization, the SETI
(Search for Extraterrestrial Intelligence) Institute which is
partly financed by high-tech heavyweights from Microsoft,
Hewlett-Packard and Intel, is not lining up behind Firmage.

``Roswell has repeatedly been discounted as nothing more than a
military experiment,'' SETI Institute President Frank Drake told
the Chronicle. ``It is constantly exploited by obsessive types
who want to believe. If it's not Santa Claus, then it's
aliens.''

Firmage, however, was unperturbed by the lack of support from
the high-tech world.

``It's the Flat-Earth society mentality all over again, and I'm
here to prove my theory is real,'' he told the newspaper. By
Andrew Quinn


**UK-UFO-Network Note** Joe Firmage's web page can be found at:
www.thewordistruth.org ********************

[W  6 ]******

Source: ITV Teletext News Publish Date: Tuesday 12th January
1999

New Russian Mig fighter

Russia: A new Mig fighter jet, conceived in response to the
latest US combat aircraft, has been unveiled.


[W 7 ]******

Source: Hubble telescope mailing list From: "Nicholas Blachford"
<minator@hearit.demon.co.uk> Date Sent: Thursday 10th December
1998

Extraterrestrial Civilisations: Coming of age in the Milky Way

If civilizations exist around other stars they are likely to be
just emerging across our Galaxy right now: like an apple orchard
suddenly maturing and ripening in the autumn sun.

So concludes Space Telescope Science Institute theorist Mario
Livio, in a paper to be published in the Astrophysical Journal.

Livio emphasizes that his theoretical work doesn't necessarily
mean extraterrestrial civilizations really do exist, but it
shows they cannot be dismissed either.

We would be a lonely, isolated quirk of cosmic evolution if
intelligent life forms appear on a planet at some random time in
the parent star's life, say some theorists.

Instead, Livio makes the case for a possible causal link between
the sun's lifetime and the appearance of intelligent life on
earth. This link should hold true for sun-like stars elsewhere
in the universe: offering an equal opportunity for intelligent
life to arise elsewhere in space.

The second part of his case is based on the possibility that
carbon -- the fundamental building block of life as we know it
-- may not have been widely available until the universe was
about 1/2 its present age.

This means that, given the added billions of years more required
for biological evolution, intelligent carbon-based life didn't
make an appearance any earlier than roughly 3 billion years ago.

He points out that before the universe could make life like us,
it has to make carbon atoms. The carbon was created by nuclear
fusion in the hearts of early stars, and then ejected when the
stars lost their outer gas layers and left their cores behind as
white dwarfs.

Livio calculates that carbon production may have peaked only two
billion years before the sun and earth formed, based on
estimates of the star formation rate made with Hubble Telescope
and other ground- based telescopes.

Though life first emerged on earth a few hundred million years
after its formation, it took a vastly longer time - nearly 3
billion years - - for the first multi-celled organisms to
appear. It took almost another billion years before life emerged
from the sea onto the land.

The earliest humans appeared less than 4 million years ago - at
about the halfway point in our sun's lifetime. If this were
purely coincidental, other theoreticians have argued, then it
would take much longer than the life of a star for most
civilizations to arise. And so it would be unlikely
extraterrestrial civilization would come about at all. We would
be alone in the universe: reduced to a novelty - or accident -
of the cosmos.

Because sunlight provides far more energy for life than other
chemical processes, biological evolution is intimately linked to
the sun's behavior, Livio maintains. For example, the complex
evolution of our atmosphere is interrelated with the sun. Our
planet's atmosphere had to develop ozone to block out
destructive UV radiation from the sun before animals could
emerge on the land

Likewise, he says, other civilizations should have emerged not
much sooner or later than about halfway through their parent
star's life cycle.  That is, around stars like our sun, or
slightly cooler, that live healthy long stable lives and release
enough energy to nurture life on accompanying planets.

If Livio is correct, and the Galaxy may be blooming with new
civilizations, then where are they? Why haven't they visited us?

Livio cautions that his work does not prove the existence of
extraterrestrial civilizations, but points out that earlier
conclusions that they do not exist may be premature.

He says that that it's also risky to think civilizations would
colonize the Galaxy. "This assumes we have even the vaguest
understanding of the psychology of extraterrestrial
civilizations."

He adds: "It's impossible to imagine the thinking of a
civilization which might have evolved a million of years ahead
of humans. We could be about as uninteresting to them as an
amoeba is to us. Actual proof will have to await advances in
biology and astronomy."

                          -END-

The Space Telescope Science Institute is operated by the
Association of Universities for Research in Astronomy, Inc.
(AURA) for NASA, under contract with NASA's Goddard Space Flight
Center, Greenbelt, MD.  The Hubble Space Telescope is a project
of international cooperation between NASA and the European Space
Agency (ESA).

NOTE TO EDITORS:  This release is available on the Internet at:
http://oposite.stsci.edu/pubinfo/1998/43 or via links in
http://oposite.stsci.edu/pubinfo/latest.html


[W  8]******

Source: Sightings On The Radio Publish Date: 7th January 1999
From: bernhard.nahrgang@ob.kamp.net (Bernhard Nahrgang)

Experts Estimate 125 Billion Galaxies In The Universe

A U S T I N, Texas - Looking back in time at a tiny section of
sky, the Hubble Space Telescope found there may be 125 billion
galaxies in the universe, about 45 billion more than the last
best estimate, astronomers reported today.

The new number was based on observations by the orbiting
telescope's Deep Field camera last October, when it looked at a
speck-sized area of the southern sky, taking what amounts to a
visual core sample of the heavens.

The Hubble telescope took a similar view of the northern sky in
1995, and then estimated that there might be 80 billion galaxies
in existence.

Harry Ferguson of the Space Telescope Science Institute, which
studies Hubble findings, said the southern observations looked a
bit further into the past than the northern ones, and managed to
detect dimmer objects in space, which accounts for the higher
galactic count.

12 Billion Light Years Away

The Deep Field-South project looked 12 billion light years away
in distance, back in time to a period perhaps one billion years
after the theoretical big bang that astronomers believe created
the universe. Hubble's glimpse of the southern sky took in an
area that would appear to be "about the size of a grain of sand
held at arm's length," Ferguson told reporters at the American
Astronomical Society meeting in Austin. But in that small
segment of the sky, the telescope spied 620 galaxies. Scientists
extrapolated from that sample to theorize that there might be
125 billion galaxies over the whole sky. "Anybody could have
predicted it," Ferguson said, stressing that by looking further
back in time, it was expected that more galaxies would turn up.

Weird-Shaped Galaxies

Ferguson and other astronomers at a news conference acknowledged
that some of the newly detected galaxies were oddly shaped,
unlike the symmetrical Milky Way that contains Earth and other
more familiar galaxies that are shaped like spirals and
ellipses. These newly-spied galaxies appeared to be a
disorganized collection of loosely-bound lumps. One astronomer
likened their shape to a Danish pastry with raisins and another
called one group of these galaxies "a pastry shop." The notion
that there might be more galaxies than originally thought is
grist for astronomers trying to figure out how the universe
developed, especially in its earliest stages, Ferguson said.

Perhaps Ghost Galaxies, Too

Because these observations by Hubble could see very faint
objects whose light made its journey toward Earth billions of
years ago, it probably counted so-called ghost galaxies in its
estimate. Ghost galaxies are tiny, and consist of large amounts
of mysterious dark matter. Since astronomers believe that 90
percent of the universe may be made up of dark matter, that
makes the ghosts worth studying and new astronomical instruments
make this possible. A light year is the distance light travels
in a year, about 6 trillion miles.


[W 9 ]******

Source: ITV Teletext News Publish Date: Saturday 16th January
1999

NSA ban Furbies

The National Security Agency has banned Furbies from its Forte
Meade premises in Maryland, USA.

The Furby, Christmas's must-have-toy resembles an owl, with
tufts of hair between its huge pink ears.

But because it can repeat what it hears, NSA officials were
worried that "they'd start talking classified," one Capitol Hill
source said.







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 30

                   {99} Part 3 United Kingdom UFO Network

From: Sean Jones <tedric@TEDRIC.DEMON.CO.UK>
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 21:49:00 +0000
Fwd Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 17:38:50 -0500
Subject: {99} Part 3 United Kingdom UFO Network

------ /  /  //  ____//     /---------------------------------------
 U K  /  /  //  ___/ /  /  /                        29th January 1999
     /  /  //  /    /  /  /  N E T W O R K         part 3 - Issue 99
--- (_____//__/    (_____/------------------------------------------

The United Kingdom UFO Network - a free electronic magazine with
subscribers in 58 countries.

This issue comes in 3 parts. If any part is missing please mail:
ufo@holodeck.demon.co.uk giving the issue number. The issue will
be reposted to you. Please put the details as below in the
subject section e.g.  Repost {99} part 1, part 2 or part 3.

----------===============******************===============----------

A FEARFUL SYMMETRY

A TRUE STORY OF ALIEN INTRUSION INTO HUMAN LIVES

By D. Lynne Bishop

A FEARFUL SYMMETRY Copyright 1995 by D. Lynne Bishop

All rights reserved. No part of this publication may be
reproduced, stored in a retrieval system or transmitted in any
form or by any means, electronic or mechanical including
photocopying, recording or otherwise without prior permission of
the publisher, except by a reviewer who may quote brief
passages.

First Printing September 1995

Printed in the United States of America

BOOKFINDER PUBLISHING

http://bookfinder.simplenet.com/

Lynne Bishop's home page

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/3862/

---

AUTHORS ENDNOTE

WHEN CONSENSUS REALITY ISNT


Throughout the recounting of the story on the preceding pages, I
have tried to maintain an even-handed treatment of the events,
allowing our actual words to express our differing thoughts,
feelings, and opinions.  This has not been an easy task.  Very
few subjects invite such divisiveness, hostility, and ridicule.
Ufology, as a field of endeavor, is unique both in the derision
afforded it by the hard sciences, and in the number of closet
adherents comprising its members.

Regardless of the method of retrieval -- through hypnosis or
conscious recall -- the recovery of memories dealing with alien
abduction can be very traumatic.1  Such recovery should not be
attempted without a support system securely in place.  This
support system might consist of a spouse, family member, friend,
co-worker, another experiencer, or a combination of any or all
of these.  I was fortunate to have a very supportive husband,
and open-minded friends and family members.

The initial shock (for me) was a shattering of my world-view.  I
had never given credence to stories of aliens abducting human
beings, and had no desire to be a part of those who said aliens
had abducted them.  The urge to remain in denial was very
strong, and was exacerbated by the secondary wounding that
occurs when family and/or friends respond with disbelief or
denial.2

Once you finally accept the reality of the alien presence, it
becomes necessary to explain its presence -- to somehow humanize
its motives -- and this becomes the final area of contention.
Sadly, it is contention with no answers -- only opinions.  What
follows are my opinions, based on my experiences with this alien
presence.

There appear to be three sub-groups of believers in the alien
abduction phenomenon.  These sub-groups consist of those who
believe the aliens are:  1) benevolent, 2) neutral, and 3)
malevolent.  My encounters have been primarily neutral in
nature, and my current stance is one of wary neutrality.

I am not a channeler, and have received no information from the
entities, except during face-to-face encounters.  The messages I
have received from them have primarily consisted of short
platitudes, and have been designed to facilitate their end
results with the least interference from me.  (Examples are:  No
harm will come to you, Do not fear, Its not the time to know.)
Other messages have indicated that the beings are immeasurably
more ancient than the human race, and that they have been here
interacting with us far longer than we realize.  I have sensed
several concepts related to their relationship with humans:

1)  They have indicated annoyance when persistently questioned
about details they dont wish to divulge.  Usually, such
persistent questioning by me has led to the leader rendering me
unconscious. (During this process, the leader normally has made
eye contact with me, and through his stronger mental force of
will is able to cause me to black out.

2)  On occasion, the leader has indicated an almost-human sense
of humor.  During one encounter, the leader hugged me, and in
response to my plea to remember to send me home, it responded,
These humans -- as long as weve dealt with them, and they never
seem to learn!  (I guess he/it was in a good mood that evening!)

3)  By far, the message with the most impact that Ive received
has been, This is how we breed.  What are the implications of
this statement, if literally true?  What are they breeding?
What are their motivations?  What are their plans for the stock
(human/alien/hybrid?) theyre breeding?  These are questions that
demand answers.

While none of my experiences has indicated overt malevolence on
the part of the aliens, neither has any experience convinced me
of their benevolence, nor the need for their interference in
human lives.  I feel strongly that there is a true core
experience involved with every human touched by the alien
abduction phenomenon, and that each of us incorporates the
experience into our lives utilizing our own personal psyche.  No
matter how we choose to decide on the entities ultimate
motivations, the hard truth remains that we are being forcibly
removed from our consensus reality by something alien, we are
being quasi-medically examined on a physical and mental level,
and we are powerless to prevent the abductions.  Were the
perpertrators human, would we have any difficulty in recognizing
the wrongness of their actions?

I have often been asked, But hasnt the experience made you grow?
and, Doesnt that growth prove its benevolent?  My answer is,
Yes, I have grown emotionally and spiritually.  However, I
attribute the growth to my inner resources; not to an alien
creature whose interference in my life created turmoil.  I would
no more thank a devastating accident for occurring in my life,
regardless of the growth caused by my survival of a traumatic
event.  We must learn to differentiate between outcome and
catalyst, or we will forever run in fear as victims, or worship
at the feet of a false god.

I have no idea where these entities come from -- whether they
are extraterrestrial, interdimensional, time-travelers, or a
form of earth-life that has always existed side-by-side with
humans.  Perhaps all that really matters is that they are here
-- now -- and we need to deal with them.

Whatever these aliens are -- wherever they come from -- cant we
meet them, not as children, not as supplicants on our knees
begging for an end to our ills, but instead on equal footing,
standing eye-to-eye, as responsible adults?


----------===============******************===============----------

UNITED KINGDOM UFO NETWORK

STATEMENT
UK-UFO-NW statement: The articles or text appearing within these
pages are not necessarily the views or opinions of United Kingdom UFO
Network.

REPORTS
Please forward all reports to: ufo@holodeck.demon.co.uk

WWW
Visit us on the World Wide Web at
www.holodeck.demon.co.uk

BACK ISSUES & FILES
For information on receiving back issues and other files send mail
with REQUEST INFO in the subject area to: ufo@holodeck.demon.co.uk

IRC - (INTERNET RELAY CHAT)
The meetings take place at 11pm (2300hrs) each and every Saturday
night. Times will vary depending on your location in the world. If you
would like to know the time in your part of the world send a mail to:

ufo@holodeck.demon.co.uk

In the subject section put: IRC TIME INFO

In the message of your mail please put:

a) Your Country
b) Your location
c) Nearest major City

Connecting to our weekly UFO meetings on the IRC (internet relay chat)
is now easier than ever.

**NEW**

Free to you customised MIRC

For some years now you have heard us go on about connecting to our
weekly UFO IRC meetings which we now hold on the Chatnet servers. You
are no doubt  also aware that quite regularly we have special guests
join us on channel to  answer your questions. Recent guests have been
Joyce Murphy (Beyond Boundaries),  Stanton Friedman, Nick Pope (UK MoD),
John Carpenter, Kevin Randle, Nick Redfern etc.

How you ever wished that you could join in, but have not really known
how  too. We now have special customised versions of MIRC for Win
3.1/3.11 & Win 95/98 that until recently have only been available to our
guests.

UK.UFO.NW would like you to join in our weekly IRC meetings. For this
reason we are making available customised versions of MIRC just for you.
They are totally free, so simple to use and customised with your
details. MIRC will be supplied with full instructions.

For your customised version of MIRC we need to know the below details.

YOUR NAME:
YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS:
A NICKNAME: (the name you wish to be known by on channel)
An ALTERNATIVE NICKNAME: (incase your first nickname is already being
used)
AOL USER: YES/NO
SEND VIA E-MAIL: YES/NO (do you want MIRC sent as an e-mail attachment)
DOWNLOAD FROM WWW: (do you want to download MIRC via web site)

Send your mail with the following subject line: REQUEST MIRC

Send your request to ufo@holodeck.demon.co.uk

A receipt will be sent acknowledging your request. Please be patient
while the program is customised for you. We are unable to give a
specific time of when the program will be ready for each individual.

SUBSCRIPTION INFORMATION
The UK.UFO.NW free fortnightly e-zine covering UFO reports and
information from the UK and around the world is now available by
subscribing to our new List Server.

Send mail to:

listserv@sjuvm.stjohns.edu

In the main body of the mail put:

subscribe ufo fn ln

note: in place of fn put your first name.
      in place of ln put your last name.

For example:

subscribe ufo John Smith

A confirm mail will then be sent to you which you need to reply to
within 48 hours to be put on the e-zine mailing list.

If you have problems you may also subscribe by sending mail to:

ufo@holodeck.demon.co.uk

In the subject section of your mail type: SUBSCRIBE

That's it - see you next time!






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 30

                          Re: Abduction Hypotheses

From: Leanne Martin <leanne_martin@hotmail.com>
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 14:23:36 PST
Fwd Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 17:41:18 -0500
Subject: Re: Abduction Hypotheses


>From: John W. Ratcliff <jratcliff@worldnet.att.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Abduction Hypotheses [was: 1999 UFO Alien Abduction Conf...]
>Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 22:18:19 -0600

<snip>

>(10)........add you own 'explanations', or hypotheses as you
>will. Lord knows I have, but none of them seem to wholly
>address the concerns of my friends who have been abused by these
>experiences.

>Like I've said in previous messages, whenever I get abducted by
>aliens, contacted by Jesus, or have a Roswell UFO crash in my
>front yard, I'll be sure to give you a more refined hypothesis
>based on my new set of experiential data.


G'day John & List,

My point 10 of your great list:

Dreamstates brought on by the pressures of modern life where the
dreamer is struggling (via analogy) with powerlessness fealt in
day-to-day life. A powerlessness, real or imagined, in dealing
with authority figures, bureaucrats, politicians, religious
leaders & etc.

Regards,
Leanne  ];-)






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 30

                    Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality

From: Leanne Martin <leanne_martin@hotmail.com>
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 14:37:26 PST
Fwd Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 17:43:56 -0500
Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality

>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
>Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 08:55:29 EST
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality [was... 1999 UFO Alien...]


>The experience leaves one exceedingly disturbed, is entirely too
>realistic and remains in the memory longer than the worst of
>recurring dreams. IF it continues off and on over a lifetime,
>the results of such a personal encounter are fascinatingly
>personal. It is like getting raped, altho being a guy, I can
>never truly relate to that.

<snip>

>Dr. Gesundt.
>A very old fool for my age.

G'day Jim (& List),

A nice read Jim (btw - sorry for miss spelling your name the
other day - I realised it as soon as I hit 'Send').

In all seriousness . . .

Do you know whether you needed a lot of hospital visits as an
infant? What have your parents told you of your first two years
of life? Were you a premature baby who needed life support?

It strikes me as a possible cause of your dream as a toddler. I
can understand if you see this as too intrusive.

Does anyone know of any correlation between being a prem-baby
and 'abduction' experiences?

Regards,
Leanne  ];-)






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 30

                UFO TV Program On Channel 4 (UK) Next Monday

From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@get2net.dk>
Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 00:04:15 +0100 (MET)
Fwd Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 17:46:04 -0500
Subject: UFO TV Program On Channel 4 (UK) Next Monday


Forwarded from the newsgroup "uk.rec.ufo".

Stig

***

From: mhubbard@notmyaddress.seeheaders.gov (Mike Hubbard)
Newsgroups: uk.rec.ufo
Subject: UFO TV programme on Channel 4 next Monday.
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 17:42:53 GMT

From: www.channel4.co.uk website:

Monday 1st February.

20.00 RIDDLE OF THE SKIES

Is There Anybody Out There?

The idea that unidentified flying objects may be craft from
another world is considered by many to be the fantasy of a
lunatic fringe - it's a subject that sharply divides sceptics
from believers. And yet, there are thousands of UFO witnesses
world wide - including pilots, air traffic controllers and
military personnel - who are convinced it is the most likely
explanation of a strange phenomenon. How absurd is this belief?
What kind of evidence underpins it? Is it worthy of serious
study? Following a close encounter with a UFO in 1990 the Royal
Belgian Air Force thinks it is. Featuring some fascinating
footage including that of unidentified flashing lights outside a
NASA shuttle, in Is There Anybody Out There? scientists,
astronomers, astronauts and cosmonauts acknowledge that we are
most probably not alone in the universe, while two reputable
physicists and an Air Force general think it highly likely that
ET is already here and there are strange happenings in space
that remain unexplained.

Riddle of the Skies combines tantalisingly ambiguous footage
with the eyewitness accounts of distinguished scientists and
astronauts, all braving the stigma of confessing belief in life
elsewhere. Boston University professor and former NASA scientist
FAROUK EL BAZ describes unexplained events on the moon observed
by one Apollo astronaut. In another bizarre incident, astronauts
witnessed flashes of light outside their shuttle. Their tense
radio conversation reveals nervous uncertainty - "Who'd be
taking pictures?" asks one. In Puerto Rico, astronomer SETH
SHOSTAK scours deep space using the world's largest radio
telescope. As part of the NASA initiated programme SETI (Search
for Extra-Terrestrial Intelligence) Shostak and his team may be
our best chance of making contact. "The vastness of the cosmos,"
he says "is a lot of real estate and this isn't the only galaxy
where anything interesting is happening." And there are over 50
billion other galaxies. Astronaut STORY MUSGRAVE spent 30years
with NASA and has been on six missions. Though he is adamant
that he has never found any proof, he's open to the idea of
advanced civilisations out there. "I believe that they are so
advanced that they are even doing interstellar travel."

Colonel ANDRE AMOND of the Belgian army recounts the
extraordinary events of 1990 when hundreds of separate UFO
sightings were recorded. He and his wife witnessed a UFO
hovering over his car one night. "There were three triangular
yellow lights and a pulsing central light," says Amond, "The
object flew away very fast." Recorded on film and tracked on
radar, these unidentified flying objects even evaded Air Force
jet fighters. The conclusions made then were that these were not
meteorological phenomenon or experimental aircraft. In this case
at least, extraterrestrial activity cannot be entirely excluded.

Since rumours of alien spacecraft emerged from Roswell, New
Mexico in 1947, UFOs have increasingly been the subject matter
of grainy, hand-held, out-of-focus 'proof'. The proliferation of
video cameras has multiplied the often absurd evidence. Riddle
of the Skies however presents footage of a far more convincing
nature. The accounts of Soviet cosmonauts and NASA astronauts
describing strange objects seen in space are accompanied by
mission footage, showing some extraordinary and inexplicable
formations around the Earth.

Next week's programme The Evidence on Earth features pilots, air
traffic controller and high ranking military officers talking
openly about their experiences with UFOs.

--

<*> Mike Hubbard. Hulme Community Computing,
Manchester UK. 0161-226 5088

"Snooker is not the most exciting of sports. Robot
snooker, on the other hand, is right up there with
nude power boat racing". - The voice of desperation,
or it might have been Jeremy Clarkson.







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 30

                Re: -=[For The Record]=- STS-80 NASA Footage

From: Leanne Martin <leanne_martin@hotmail.com>
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 15:07:06 PST
Fwd Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 17:47:48 -0500
Subject: Re: -=[For The Record]=- STS-80 NASA Footage


>From: Skywatch International Inc. <skywatch@ltlb.com
>To: "discuss" <discuss@unix.ltlb.com
>Subject: (Skyopen) FW: STS-80 NASA Footage
>Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 04:55:29 -0600

>From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@hotmail.com>
>Sent: Thursday, January 28, 1999 11:33 AM
>To: encounters@confirmation.net
>Subject: STS-80 NASA footage

<snip>

G'day List,

This takes me back to John Ratcliffs rant of last week - I now
know I don't want to get a Hoagland rant with lots of little
Hoagies running around as they will probably try to sell it from
under me. <g>

Regards,
Leanne  ];-)







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 30

                   Re: Roswell 1999 - Renewed Perspective?

From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 20:12:51 EST
Fwd Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 17:50:12 -0500
Subject: Re: Roswell 1999 - Renewed Perspective?


>Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 09:51:26 -0500
>From: Terry Blanton <commengr@bellsouth.net>
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Roswell 1999 - Renewed Perspective?

At the risk of starting another fire storm, I just have a couple
of clarifications for Tom Carey's piece about the status of the
continuing Roswell investigation.


>1. We are presently trying to enlist the cooperation of a
>first-hand witness who claims to have actually held a piece of
>something similar to Frankie Rowe's "memory metal" in his hands
>within the past two years. We have gotten as far as having the
>witness agree to meet with us personally to try to coordinate
>with the owners of the artifact to let us examine it. It is
>quite conceivable that by the time you are reading this we will
>be meeting with all parties concerned.

I sure hope this isn't a reference to Royal MacKenzie, the
police officer who suggests that while in Roswell, he happened
to overhear a couple of long-time residents talking about the
case. They finally showed MacKenzie the piece of debris.

>Just before he passed away in 1994, former Roswell base
>adjutant in 1947, Maj. Patrick Saunders, wrote on a copy of The
>Truth About the UFO Crash at Roswell (1994) that he sent to the
>book's authors, Kevin Randle and Don Schmitt, this cathartic
>statement, "This is the truth, and I still haven't told anyone".

This isn't quite accurate. Saunders did write on multiple copies
of the book that it was the truth (as we have discussed on
Updates in the past) but I didn't learn about it until about
eighteen months after he died. One of those who received the
book wrote to me about it. Naturally, I would have contacted
Saunders again to learn as much as I could, but he was dead.
Instead I talked to the friends, the widow, and corresponded
with a daughter who lives in Spain.

KRandle





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 30

               TASS Story On Russian Plasma Stealth Confirmed

From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@get2net.dk>
Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 02:49:35 +0100 (MET)
Fwd Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 17:52:12 -0500
Subject: TASS Story On Russian Plasma Stealth Confirmed


Source:

http://www.ufomind.com/military/aircraft/skunkworks/m
ailing/msg02038.shtml

Stig

***

Skunk Works Mailing List

Re: Russian plasma stealth?

From: "Allen Thomson"
Subject: Re: Russian plasma stealth?
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 14:23:58 -0700

Sam Kaltsidis said:

>I've also removed those annoying carriage returns,
>but haven't fixed the spelling errors.

>BTW: What's up with all the spelling mistakes? Did
>this really come from a news agency?

>Author=Philip Kaploun
>Russian Low Observability Technologies Data
>Released
>Russian Scientists Created Revolutionary Low
>Observability Technologies
>Moscow, January 20. Nicolai Novichkov, ITAR-TASS
>information agency

<everything snipped>

>Translation by Philip Kaploun.

Novichkov is a well-known and respected aerospace reporter. Most
of the text has the typical look of stuff that has been
almost-translated into English from Russian, but some of it
makes me think Kaploun may be more familiar with French than
English  terminology ( e.g., "furtiveness" instead of
"stealthiness"). Or maybe he was doing it from a French
almost-translation of the Russian original

***

"pharabod@in2p3.fr" who broke the story to the Skunk Works list
is French, so maybe he got the story from AFP (Agence
France-Presse).

Stig






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 30

                UFOMIND: Getting closer to Element 115 [news]

From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@get2net.dk>
Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 03:06:47 +0100 (MET)
Fwd Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 17:54:29 -0500
Subject: UFOMIND: Getting closer to Element 115 [news]



From: campbell@ufomind.com (Glenn Campbell, Las Vegas)
Subject: UFOMIND: Getting closer to Element 115 [news]
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 16:21:26 -0800
To: ufomind@lists.best.com


Via: [withheld by request]@llnl.gov

>From LLNL's own NEWSLINE:

----- Begin Press Release -----

Subject: Russia-Livermore Scientists may have produced elusive
heavy element 114

A Russian-Livermore experiment at Russia's Joint Institute for
Nuclear Research in Dubna my have produced the long-sought
element 114, according to news reports out of Russia.

The Dubna accelerator fired calcium-48 atoms into a Livermore
supplied target of Plutonium-244 in a 40 day experiment that
wrapped up at the end of December 1998. Detectors picked up
signs of a single atom of a heavy element, tentatively
identified as 114, by a tell-tale sequence of alpha-particle
emissions followed by a spontaneous fission, due to decay of the
atom and the subsequent decay of it's daughters".

Livermore nuclear chemist Ken Moody spoke with caution about the
experiments. "these are very interesting findings," he said.
"The analysis we are doing now should tell us how to interpret
the results."

"If confirmed, the synthesis of element 114 will create an
important new opportunity to study the physics of extrememly
heavy elements," said Energy secretary Bill Richardson.
"creating 114 has long been a goal of Nuclear Physicists. It is
significant that this latest experiment is an international
effort, a collaborative project involving Russian scientists at
Dubna, and American scientists from DOE's Lawrence Livermore
National Lab".

Livermore's participation was supported by Laboratory Directed
Research and Development. Moody and collaborators Ron Lougheed,
John Wild, Nancy Stoyer and Mark Stoyer of the Analytical and
Nuclear Chemistry division supplied the plutonium target and
participated in the design and implementation of the
experiments, and the subsequent data analysis. They have worked
in the highly competitive field of heavy element sysnthesis at
the three world's major centers for such research, in Berkeley,
Dubna and Darmstadt, and are careful not to count chickens
prematurely.

Still, they agree it is an exciting time. Synthesizing element
114 is a long sought goal because of theoretical predictions
that it will be part of an "island of stability" in an ocean of
instability. Lighter (but still extremely heavy) elements like
108 last only thousandths of a second before falling apart. The
observations at Dubna suggested a 30-second lifetime for the 114
candidate, a veritable Rock of Gibraltar compared to some of its
more ephemeral neighbors.





Index: http://www.ufomind.com/people/l/lazar/element115/







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 30

              Re: 1999 UFO Alien Abduction Conference Announced

From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 20:36:18 -0600 (CST)
Fwd Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 17:59:24 -0500
Subject: Re: 1999 UFO Alien Abduction Conference Announced


>From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
>Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 09:51:08 EST
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Re: 1999 UFO Alien Abduction Conference Announced

<snip>

>I'm sorry that so many took my comments as negative when they
>were only a suggestion for some balance. Greg Sandow has
>suggested that Jerry Clark (truly the historian of the UFO
>phenomena) will provide that balance. I would, of course, have
>preferred to make the argument myself, but that is not to be.

>KRandle


Kevin,

As you may or may not be aware, I will be hosting the next
National UFO Conference here in San Antonio, to which I hereby
extend an official invitation. Would you like to speak about
your abduction book?

We can put you up and pay for your airfare. (Hopefully, via
Southwest Airlines, but not absolutely necessary.)

Conference dates haven't been finalized yet, but will probably
be sometime in June. Details to follow.

As a bonus, I'll be leading guided tours to the site of Whitley
Strieber's "Secret School" in the Olmos Basin. Worth the price
of admission alone!

You can respond privately or via the thread.

Dennis Stacy






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 30

                              Martian Chronicle

From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@get2net.dk>
Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 03:42:19 +0100 (MET)
Fwd Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 18:02:30 -0500
Subject: Martian Chronicle


Source: Reason Magazine

http://www.reasonmag.com:80/9902/fe.jt.martian.html

John Tierney is a columnist for The New York Times.

Stig

***

REASON * February 1999

Martian Chronicle

Mars may well be the next great frontier. But what kind of world
should we make there?

By John Tierney

**

A couple of years ago, after hearing an engineer named Robert
Zubrin rhapsodize about his plan for a privately financed
expedition to Mars, I tried out the idea on America's masters
of marketing. I sent an outline of the scheme to Bill Gates,
Ted Turner, Barry Diller, Peter Uberroth, television executives
such as ABC's Roone Arledge and NBC's Don Ohlmeyer, the leaders
of DreamWorks, and a long list of other people whose names tend
to be accompanied by the word visionary. I wasn't asking for
money, just for their thoughts on how humanity's interplanetary
adventure could be packaged profitably, but most of them didn't
even want to think about it. Except for a few enthusiasts, they
couldn't imagine how you could make the trip interesting enough
to pay the bills. How could you hold the audience for such a
long trip to such a desolate place?

"Personally," Barry Diller explained, "I don't care about going
to Mars."

Personally, I did. But I didn't presume to know as much about
the mass audience as Diller and his fellow moguls. They knew
how short the public's attention span could be; they remembered
how quickly people had gotten bored with the Apollo program.
What, really, was the point of going to Mars? If the idea made
any commercial sense, why wasn't someone working on it? I
wondered if Zubrin was hopelessly unrealistic--until this past
summer, when he managed to get 700 people from 40 countries to
travel to Boulder, Colorado.

Officially, it was the founding convention of the Mars Society.
Unofficially, it was the Woodstock of Mars, a horde of
scientists, entrepreneurs, schoolteachers, lawyers, writers,
engineers, college students, musicians, computer geeks, and
assorted hustlers wearing "MARS OR BUST" buttons. They ranged
from space hobbyists to the president of a company working on a
privately financed mission to survey an asteroid. They debated
the cost of spaceships and whether to power the Mars land rover
with a nuclear reactor. They bought Mars trinkets and pictures.
They analyzed details ranging from the proper Martian calendar
(there are dozens of competing systems) to the mechanics of
creating a breathable atmosphere on Mars.

And they cheered Zubrin, who is one of the more riveting
engineer-orators in history. A short man with intense dark eyes
and a passionate speaking style--he can bring to mind
Savonarola--he railed at the stagnation that would afflict
humans without a frontier to conquer. He extolled the Europeans
who crossed the Atlantic 500 years ago to find freedom in the
New World and the Africans who left the comforts of the tropics
50,000 years ago for the cold, harsh regions where they were
forced to develop the tools that made civilization possible.
"Humans did not leave paradise because they ate of the tree of
knowledge," he proclaimed. "They ate of the tree of knowledge
because they left paradise." The audience gave him a two-minute
standing ovation.

In some ways it was reminiscent of the passion for space back
in the 1960s, but not even the moon landings had ever aroused
such a zealous corps of volunteer mission planners. These
people wanted much more than another Apollo program, whose
achievements they dismissed as "flags and footprints." Their
heroes were from earlier eras of exploration: Columbus, the
Pilgrims, Lewis and Clark, the settlers of the American West.
As they put it in their society's founding declaration, "The
settling of the Martian New World is an opportunity for a noble
experiment in which humanity has another chance to shed old
baggage and begin the world anew."

They were dangerously close to utopianism--which at first
seemed odd, given that Zubrin and a good many of the others are
libertarians. Ordinarily, libertarians are too busy opposing
politicians' utopian schemes to be preaching their own. But as
they fantasized about casting off the chains of earthly
governments, the Mars-libertarian connection began to make
sense. Mars gives libertarians a rare chance to be for
something, to present a grand vision of freedom instead of
merely trying to fend off the latest excesses of big
government. Building the future is a splendid alternative to
the drudgery of deregulating and privatizing the present.
Spaceships and extraterrestrial colonies evoke the sort of
emotions inspired by cathedrals in the Middle Ages--or, to use
a more recent example, by modern architecture in The
Fountainhead.

Libertarians can appreciate Mars in a way that Barry Diller and
his fellow moguls can't. A desolate planet free of earthly
institutions is more appealing to libertarians than it is to
the corporate elite, just as the New World was more appealing
to the Pilgrims and other contrarians than it was to the
European aristocracy. It will take some doing to settle Mars,
but libertarians have a crucial advantage. They're not
expecting government bureaucrats to do the job. They know
better than to count on NASA.

Four decades after the Lewis and Clark expedition, the American
West had been mapped by trappers and was being rapidly settled
by farmers. It has now been nearly four decades since the first
explorers went into space, and what do we have to show for it?
Chiefly two government programs that have created lots of jobs
and produced massive cost overruns: the space shuttle and the
space station. Rick Tumlinson, the president of the Space
Frontier Foundation, is grateful that NASA did not exist in
Thomas Jefferson's day.

"Suppose," Tumlinson says, "that when Lewis and Clark returned
from their trip, Jefferson had told them, 'Mr. Clark, you
develop a Conestoga shuttle. Mr. Lewis, I want you to build a
national cabin.' And 30 years later they had three or four
Conestoga shuttles, and they were just beginning to build the
national cabin. That's where we are today."

Admittedly, space poses more logistical challenges than the
American West. But NASA has shown a genius for complicating
those challenges. It is burdened not only by bureaucratic
inefficiency and pork barrel politics (every superfluous job
means votes in someone's congressional district) but also by
the public's aversion to risk. Private explorers can afford to
fail and risk lives; NASA's leaders are expected by politicians
and the press to prevent any loss of life or damage to
"national prestige." They're forced to avoid another Challenger
disaster at all costs.

"The cost of space travel ought to be declining with new
technology, but it's not," says Edward L. Hudgins, director of
regulatory studies at the Cato Institute. "About three decades
after the Wright brothers' flight, the commercially viable DC-3
was flying. But today the cost of placing payloads into orbit
on the shuttle is 10 times higher than it was during the Apollo
program. By contrast, in the past 20 years the cost of airline
tickets per passenger mile has dropped by 30 percent, and the
cost of shipping oil has dropped 80 percent."

NASA's profligacy became absurdly obvious in 1989, when the
agency was asked by President Bush to plan a mission to Mars.
It responded with a $400 billion proposal to build a 1,000-ton
interplanetary spaceship the length of a football field, which
would have carried all the fuel for the return voyage. It would
have been assembled in orbit because it was too large to be
launched from Earth--"the battlestar Galactica," as Zubrin
dubbed it. At the time he was an engineer at Martin Marietta
Astronautics and a member of an informal group called the Mars
Underground that met occasionally to dream of interplanetary
travel. He and a colleague at Martin Marietta, Donald Baker,
came up with an alternative to NASA's battlestar Galactica by
adopting the philosophy of Roald Amundsen, the entrepreneurial
Norwegian who explored the polar regions early this century.

Besides winning the race to the South Pole, Amundsen was the
first person to sail the Northwest Passage, which he
accomplished by avoiding the mistakes of the British Navy. As
the NASA of its day, the Royal Navy in the 19th century sent
one lavishly provisioned expedition after another in search of
the Northwest Passage, but the large ships kept getting stuck
in the Arctic ice, and when the food ran out the men had to
return home (or perish, as many of them did). Amundsen, who was
financing his own expedition, bought a small fishing boat and
took a crew of just six. Unable to bring huge stores of food,
he learned to live off the land by hunting caribou as he
maneuvered the small boat through the ice all the way from the
Atlantic to the Pacific.

"Amundsen's expedition was a brilliant example of a small group
of explorers succeeding on a shoestring budget," Zubrin says.
"Lewis and Clark's was another. Before their journey, armies
with big baggage trains had failed to make any significant
penetration in the American West. But Lewis and Clark managed
to cross the continent with just 25 men."

To reach Mars, Zubrin proposed replacing NASA's huge ship with
a vessel small and light enough to be launched directly from
Earth. It would not need to carry fuel for the return trip
because the Martian explorers, like Amundsen, would exploit
local resources: the carbon dioxide in the Martian atmosphere,
which when combined with hydrogen brought from Earth, could be
converted to methane and liquid oxygen to fuel the return
voyage. Zubrin built a machine to demonstrate how easily it
could be done, and eventually NASA adopted his idea. It
redesigned the Mars mission, lowering the cost estimate from
$400 billion to $55 billion, and is contemplating a trip
sometime after 2010.

But Zubrin, who's now the president of his own firm in Boulder,
Pioneer Astronautics, has pared down NASA's plans to come up
with a still cheaper mission. He figures that within a decade a
private entrepreneur could get to Mars and back for a mere $5
billion. He's been promoting this idea in lectures and in a
book, The Case for Mars, that has been translated into half a
dozen languages and attracted letters from thousands of Mars
enthusiasts around the world. (See "Spaceship Enterprise,"
April 1997.)

Other engineers estimate the cost of a private mission might be
more like $10 billion, maybe up to $20 billion, but even at
those prices the trip is not an absurdly extravagant dream.
NASA's budget for a single year is $13 billion. For the
estimated cost of building and operating the space station,
$100 billion, you could send a fleet of Zubrin's ships to Mars.
By NASA standards, the cost of a private Mars mission is chump
change.

But by venture capital standards, it's a lot of money for a
highly speculative endeavor. To pay for the mission, Zubrin and
members of the Mars Society have been analyzing the financing
techniques of pre-NASA explorers and looking for new ideas.
Some possibilities:

The Mars Prize. Zubrin tried selling this idea during a dinner
with then-House Speaker Newt Gingrich, who got so enthusiastic
that the meal lasted for four hours. But Gingrich never
followed through on the proposal, which calls for Congress to
promise $20 billion to the first explorers who reach Mars and
return. In case that prize isn't enough to interest
entrepreneurs in such a risky all-or-nothing venture, Zubrin
also envisions offering smaller bonuses for achieving technical
milestones along the way, like sending the equipment for making
fuel to Mars.

Prizes have been used in the past to spur public-private
ventures in exploration. Fifteenth-century Spanish and
Portuguese rulers offered financial inducements to captains who
ventured down the African coast and across the Atlantic. In the
19th century, the British Parliament offered cash awards for
reaching the North Pole and for venturing westward into the
Arctic ice: a prize of [sterling]5,000 for reaching 110 degrees
west, double that for reaching 130 degrees, and triple that for
150 degrees.

For politicians, the most appealing aspect of the Mars Prize is
that they could reap the publicity of announcing it without
having to pay for it immediately. They could present themselves
as both patrons of exploration and opponents of make-work
government programs. NASA would surely object to the proposal,
and so might libertarian purists, who could argue that there's
no need for the public to finance any kind of Martian
adventure. But to some extent, the knowledge gained from
Martian exploration would be a public good; so would the
national glory, for whatever that's worth. And there's always
the preservation-of-the-species argument: By supporting the
exploration of a potential new home, the public is buying
insurance against Earth's becoming uninhabitable.

The Mars Prize would certainly be more defensible than NASA's
current monopoly on public funds for space exploration. Still,
there's no reason the trip must be financed by the government.
Entrepreneurial explorers have long profited from the fortunes
and egos of...

Rich Patrons. In 1911, William Randolph Hearst offered a
$50,000 prize to the first person to fly across America in less
than 30 days. Calbraith Perry Rodgers immediately set out to
win it in a plane called the Vin Fiz, named after a carbonated
grape drink manufactured by his sponsor, the Armour Meat
Packing Company. He endured 15 accidents on the way from New
York to Los Angeles, one of which landed him in the hospital
for a month. He didn't meet the deadline--it took him 84
days--but he did complete the trip. Other prizes have been
offered for human-powered flight (a $200,000 award claimed in
1978, when the Gossamer Albatross flew a mile) and for the
first manned, completely reusable spaceship (a $10 million
award, announced in 1996 by the X Prize Foundation, that has
yet to be claimed).

The Mars Prize would be an expensive proposition, but
modern-day Hearsts such as Bill Gates could afford to offer it.
Or they could directly finance expeditions, the way wealthy
gentlemen supported polar exploration at the start of the
century. Robert Peary, for instance, was bankrolled by the
Peary Arctic Club, a group of businessmen who paid for the
privilege of basking in his company and achieving geographic
immortality. Peary and other polar explorers named mountains
and glaciers after the American, British, and Norwegian
plutocrats who financed the discoveries. Mars' most prominent
features, like its 18-mile-high volcano and 2,800-mile-long
version of the Grand Canyon, have already been named, but the
first explorers there--and certainly the first settlers--could
exercise their prerogative to assign new names.

The patrons of Arctic expeditions also sometimes paid to tag
along for part of the trip. Peary brought wealthy sponsors on
his ship; Frederick C. Cook was accompanied by a sportsman who
wanted to hunt. The Mars mission--six months traveling there,
two years on the surface, and six months back--might be too
grueling a vacation for the typical billionaire. But plenty of
other people would pay for a chance to go along, and there's a
clever way to get hold of their money.

The Mars Lottery. Perhaps the most promising new idea at the
conference in Boulder came from someone outside the aerospace
industry. Alex Duncan, a local resident with experience in the
commodities business, proposed an international Mars Lottery,
modeled on the lottery based in Lichtenstein that raises funds
internationally for the Red Cross. A Mars Lottery could be
headquartered anywhere and reach a global audience through the
Internet.

Besides the usual cash prizes, which could be awarded
fortnightly or monthly, the Mars Lottery would have two big
selling points. First, participants would know that a portion
of the proceeds was going to support a private expedition to
Mars. Second, and more important, participants would be buying
a chance to go themselves. Duncan proposed that all the winners
of the regular drawings become eligible for a grand prize: a
berth on the first ship to Mars, assuming that the winner of
this grand drawing met the physical and mental requirements for
the voyage. Duncan figures that the proceeds from this lottery
could pay for the whole Mars mission within three to five
years.

A variation on his scheme would be to give the winner of each
regular drawing the option of trying out for the mission at the
explorers' training camp, which would probably be in the Arctic
(to simulate the frigid conditions on Mars). The leader of the
crew could evaluate dozens, maybe hundreds, of different
winners and choose one or two for the trip. This system would
produce a better crew and also increase the appeal of the
lottery, because each winner would be getting an Arctic
adventure in addition to the cash prize.

Media and Marketing. The Summer Olympics last just three weeks
and generate more than $2 billion in fees from television
networks and corporate sponsors. The three-year Mars mission
has the potential to make much more money, possibly enough to
pay for itself, solely with the revenue from media rights and
corporate tie-ins.

Just as Henry Morton Stanley charged the expenses of his
African journeys to the New York Herald, just as Sir Ernest
Shackleton paid for his Antarctic voyages with best-selling
books and international lecture tours, the Mars explorers could
tap into the global appetite for adventure stories. And just as
Shackleton exploited the new media of his day--at his lectures
in 1910 he showed the first movies from the Antarctic--the Mars
explorers could reach a paying audience through new cable
channels and Web sites. The media coverage of the mission would
attract the same kind of sponsors who pay to be part of the
Olympics. Outdoor gear makers and high-technology firms would
have a special incentive to have their logos and products
associated with the adventure.

Although some sponsors would be reluctant to get involved with
a project that could fail spectacularly and fatally, others
(especially those selling products to young males) would be
attracted by the aura of danger. But the dangers must seem
worthwhile; the mission shouldn't come off as a pointless
stunt. If the trip appeared to be just a longer version of
Apollo 11, another enterprise that left nothing but flags and
footprints, it would be less appealing to the audience--and
therefore to potential sponsors. That's one reason that Zubrin
and his disciples focus on analogies with Columbus instead of
Neil Armstrong. The vision of Mars as the New World lends the
first trip gravitas.

But why would anyone, especially a libertarian devoted to free
markets, believe that a Mars colony would be a good investment?
The first humans on Mars will encounter horrific dust storms,
temperatures of minus 70 degrees Fahrenheit, and an
unbreathable atmosphere. If they stood on the Martian surface
without a pressurized suit, their blood would expand and burst
out of their veins. Why would it pay to stick around?

At first glance, Mars has none of the commercial opportunities
that drew the first Europeans to America. Columbus, who was
financed by merchants as well as by Queen Isabella, crossed the
Atlantic with the intention of making money. Even after his
first goal, a trade route to the Orient, proved unattainable,
there were other attractions for investors. The Spanish
conquered the natives and took home gold; the French and Dutch
set up trading posts in North America to acquire furs.

Mars offers no such inducements, unless you count the souvenir
value of its rocks. Otherwise the minerals in its crust appear
to be of little value. Science fiction writers like to imagine
humans profitably mining asteroids and other planets, but
there's no looming scarcity of minerals on Earth. The prices of
metals and most other natural resources have been falling for
millennia. Unless the prices here rise dramatically, or the
cost of interplanetary shipping plummets, space miners won't be
able to profitably export Mars' resources in the foreseeable
future.

But Mars does have some resources of local value: water, carbon
dioxide, and real estate. It contains as much dry land as all
the continents on Earth, and the leaders of the Mars Society
have big plans for it. They want to "terraform" Mars by
injecting chlorofluorocarbons into its atmosphere and setting
off a runaway greenhouse effect. As the planet thawed, the
atmosphere would thicken with carbon dioxide released from
melting ice caps and soil. Add some trees and plants to convert
the carbon dioxide into oxygen, and before long humans could be
breathing comfortably as they strolled in shirt sleeves on the
green planet.

This scheme sounds outlandish today, but there was a time when
Europeans couldn't imagine settling the American wilderness
either. The Spanish and French leaders, as well as the
officials of the Dutch West India Company, didn't initially
emphasize permanent settlements of families. They sent mainly
single men--soldiers, traders, and trappers--on temporary
assignments to extract resources. America was a nice place to
exploit, but you wouldn't want to live there.

"From the Spanish point of view," Zubrin says, "the only parts
of the Americas that were valuable were the places with
civilized Indians that could be taxed. They dismissed the rest
as a howling wilderness. The British had a different notion of
where wealth comes from. They created farms and towns in New
England, turning the wilderness into a domain where social
reproduction could occur."

The British settlers, motivated by a yearning for religious
freedom, eventually outnumbered and expelled the Spanish,
French, and Dutch from most of North America. Isolated from
Europe, they created new kinds of communities with new kinds of
liberties. "Humanity needs room to play and experiment with
ideas in human governance," Zubrin says. "In 1776 Thomas Paine
wrote, 'We hold it in our power to begin the world anew.' So
they did, and so do we. People will endure the risk and
hardships of emigrating to Mars if, like the colonists in
America, they can find a higher level of freedom."

Zubrin has come up with 16 new rights he would like to see on
Mars, such as the right "to build, develop natural resources,
and improve nature," and the right to practice an occupation
without a license. "The Martian frontier could be like the
frontier in the American West, where you didn't need a license
to be a doctor," Zubrin says. "If you got good results, you had
a clientele. If you had bad results, you were lynched."

His fellow libertarians have come up with their own bills of
rights for Mars, which are being debated on the Mars Society's
Web site (www.marssociety.org). What kind of property rights
should there be on Mars? Should euthanasia and narcotics be
legal? Do Earthlings even have the right to discuss the rights
of future Martians? There's a certain absurdity to the
debate--and to the very existence of the Mars Law and
Governance Task Group--but also a certain glamour. If you're
going to conduct a theoretical argument about something as
arcane as occupational licensing, you may as well set it in
outer space.

Meanwhile, back on planet Earth, the more mundane question
remains: Who pays for the first trip? At its founding
convention, the Mars Society resolved to raise $1 million to
establish its own training base in the Arctic, on Canada's
Devon Island, and it's also planning to send its own instrument
along on a NASA spacecraft in 2003.

"We might want to send along a balloon that will float above
Mars with a camera attached to it," Zubrin says. "We could
market that for its entertainment value and advertising
revenue. Maybe you couldn't pay for the whole mission with that
revenue, but the Mars Society membership would pay for the
difference. It's the Jacques Cousteau model: You combine
membership dues with commercial revenues from films and
documentaries. As you take one little step after another; you
build up your credibility to raise the $5 billion for the
manned mission."

Already a few entrepreneurs are looking to launch their own
missions into space. Two companies, hoping to tap the adventure
travel market, have announced plans to build space planes that
will take customers for a brief ride just outside the
atmosphere. Another firm, Space Dev, has raised $20 million as
part of its plan to send scientific instruments to survey an
asteroid and sell the data to scientists. But the Mars mission
requires investment of another order of magnitude, and even
enthusiasts like Zubrin aren't sure the private sector will
take the risk anytime soon. As he hopes for a private mission,
he's also lobbying for an old-fashioned NASA program.

"I'm a hard libertarian about rights on Mars, but not about
getting there," he says. "With something as risky as Mars, it
would be useful for the government to absorb some of the
up-front costs. Spanish merchants weren't willing to back
Columbus' first trip without royal involvement. Lewis and Clark
were funded by the U.S. government--and then, as soon as they
came back and said there's beaver there, John Jacob Astor's
people did their own private exploration that ultimately was
much more extensive than the government's. The American
government also stimulated the private sector by setting up
forts in the frontier, which attracted peddlers who established
trade routes in the area. If the government set up a research
base on Mars, it would stimulate private competition to lower
the costs of delivering cargo."

Once the cost of transport to Mars dropped, real estate
speculators might begin to see the planet's potential. One
member of the Mars Society, Richard Allen Brown, has proposed
that a private company divide Mars into a million plots, each
25,000 acres, and sell bonds giving a 100-year option on each
plot. By charging $20,000 for each bond, the company could
raise $20 billion. It would invest this capital conservatively
and use the income, about $1 billion a year, to finance the
exploration and settlement of Mars over the course of a
century. If you bought a bond and the land eventually became
valuable, you (or your heir) could exercise the option to trade
in the bond for a deed to the land. If after 100 years the
option still hadn't been exercised, your heir could redeem the
bond for the original capital investment of $20,000.

Mars bonds would not be for the timid investor. Even if the
land did become valuable, there's no guarantee that your deed
to the land would be recognized, because for now there's no
internationally recognized method of claiming land in outer
space. The vagaries of space property law make a another great
topic of discussion among Mars Society members. (See "A Little
Piece of Heaven," November.) But then, the first investors in
the New World did not have secure property rights either.

"People in England were buying and selling Kentucky back in the
1600s, when it might as well have been Mars," Zubrin says. "No
British citizen had been there, and it wasn't clear that
British law would prevail--the French and Spanish had claims
there too. But the king of England would sell patents to a
nobleman, who would sell pieces to capitalists willing to
speculate on the British. They'd hire someone to survey it, and
then, if there were good prospects, they'd sell the land at a
profit or start developing it by sending in settlers."

It's conceivable that the interplanetary version of the French
and Indian War would be a conflict between rival companies or
countries trying to claim Martian real estate. Perhaps more
likely, the war could pit speculators against those who wanted
to preserve Mars from capitalist development. Already a handful
of countries (not including the United States) have signed a
treaty declaring all extraterrestrial bodies to be "the common
heritage of mankind," as Antarctica is treated today. The
scientists who are now fighting to keep Antarctica
pristine--which generally means excluding every money-making
activity except for their research projects--would probably try
to preserve Mars for themselves too. Environmentalists who now
demand the preservation of malarial swamps and frozen tundras
probably would find reason to preserve Mars in its "natural"
state.

In fact, Zubrin's development plans even provoked some
opposition at the founding convention of the Mars Society.
Environmentalists in the audience rose to object when he
declared it our species' Manifest Destiny to terraform the
Martian environment. But Zubrin managed to quell the
opposition, and get another ovation, by explaining that the Red
Planet would become a green haven for terrestrial species whose
habitat might one day be endangered.

"We must protect billions of our fellow creatures," he said.
"Raccoons and maple trees can't get to Mars on their own. We
have to help them there. Humans have eaten a lot of fish, and
now we're going to repay the favor by taking fish to Mars. It's
our duty to the biosphere."

It was a lovely moment, a developer outgreening
environmentalists by nobly espousing the largest real estate
project in history, and it illustrated why Mars is a no-lose
proposition for libertarians. If colonizing the Red Planet ever
becomes a practical possibility, we should be ready to get
there before anyone else starts writing the rules. And even if
colonization never becomes practical, even if Mars
never
becomes a free new world, just imagining it is
good for the
libertarian soul.


John Tierney is a columnist for The New York Times.








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 30

                            Filer's Files #4-1999

From: Moderator UFO UpDates
Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 18:12:01 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 18:12:01 -0500
Subject: Filer's Files #4-1999




FILER'S FILES

Filer's Files #4-1999
MUFON Skywatch Investigations
George A. Filer: MUFON Eastern Director,
January 28, 1999
Majorstar@aol.com (609) 654-0020


 Filer's Files: sponsored by Global Force Ltd

     Click here for frame free viewing

Now that the holidays are over sightings are picking up
particularly in Italy. December is a slow month for sightings
around the world. I wonder if the UFO pilots take a holiday or
do people just fail to notice them. This slow down might infer
that many UFOs are actually secret aircraft, since many of our
aircraft are deployed to the Iraq operation. I just returned
from speaking at Mohonk Mountain Resort a beautiful place for a
vacation, great food, and a wonderful staff. Several observed
Triangle shaped UFOs in the area as recently as November 6,
1998. Other speakers were Ed and Lorraine Warren experts on the
paranormal. They informed us that ghost, apparitions,
poltergeists, angels and similar supernatural activities are at
an all time high. Frequently unidentified lights, plasmas, and
possible UFOs are also sighted in the vicinity or this activity.
They have a great Website at: http://www.warrens.net.

NEW YORK

LA GRANGE, HUDSON VALLEY -- Kenny Young reports he received the
following E-mail. On January 19, 1999, my fianc=E9e and I were
driving home on a road we frequently travel Noxon Rd in
LaGrange. We noticed two very bright lights through the trees.
As we drove closer it looked like it was hovering over the road
where it turns, as we came closer the two lights turned to
three. A fourth light came on it appeared to be going down into
the field as we got closer it moved over to the right of the
road about 150 ft away. I think about 170 feet up. This was no
airplane or helicopter as being in the US Army I know what they
look like. I pulled the car over onto a side road to the left
and got out to have a better look. The only sound I heard could
be best described as a low hum. Three more cars approached from
the Taconic State Parkway and slowed to look. Thanks to UFO
Research http://home.fuse.net/ufo/

NORTH CAROLINA

Terry W. Kimbrell writes, I am a Field Investigator for ISUR and
noticed a "Blue Ridge Corridor" of UFO sightings. John Thompson
suggested I ask advice from you on this theory. I am going to
try compile the information on these sightings. It would make
sense that as well as military remote training runs that
something else is using these routes to make their runs to stay
hidden in these Eastern Mountain ranges. In the last two years
theirs been allot of reports have been coming out of the area of
the Western North Carolina Mountains. There was one last week.
If you could help me with my research with suggestions it would
be greatly appreciated. Thanks Terry Kimbrell
GOODWISE@prodigy.net

Editor's Note: There does seem to be a fairly large number of
sightings along the Eastern Mountain Range from Georgia to New
York. This may indicate bases are hidden in the mountains or
that low flying military aircraft are not identified. Something
more mundane such as Earth lights and plasmas are also known to
exist in these areas. Tom Sheets the Georgia MUFON State
director states, "I am not sure we have enough solid cases to
prove we have a UFO corridor." I suggest further research is
needed and my files are available to you.

LOUISIANA

PLAIN DEALING=97ISUR reports Jerry J. Reich had a sighting on
January 19.1999, around 11:30 PM. Jerry states: "I noticed 5
bright lights over the tree line and I thought it was
helicopters or weather balloons because they were stationary.
The lights began to move in wavy motion so I knew it could not
be helicopters. The lights some became brighter and some not as
bright began going in different directions. I did not thank they
were balloons. We are familiar with aircraft since they fly over
from an air force base that is only 30 miles away. Both my wife
and I saw the lights for several hours. She became scared and
went inside." (318)423-8029, 1298 Rocky Mt. Road Plain Dealing,
La 71064 spider-tr071.proxy.aol.com Thanks to John Thompson and
ISUR for the report.

COLORADO

CANON CITY-- At 5;40 P.M. on January 15, 1999, I saw a cluster
of red lights moving together in the northeast sky. They were
not a close cluster, but more spread out, maybe 6 or 7 large red
lights. I was traveling down the Royal Gorge Highway as a
passenger, when I noticed them. The driver did not see them but
another friend asked if I had seen any lights. She described the
same thing. She lives in a 13th floor apartment and said they
appeared to land and blink out. Thanks to EDWARD W BURKE
EDBURKE@prodigy.net

UFO FLAP SPREADS TO ALL REGIONS OF ITALY

On Saturday, January 9, 1999, at 10:30 p.m., a teenaged boy
returning home in Cava dei Tirreni spotted "a black discoidal
object" hovering above some houses. The saucer, he reported, had
a diameter estimated at 10 meters (33 feet), emitted no sound,
and showed no lights or colors of any kind. It circled twice
over the town before flying away. On Monday, January 11, 1999,
at 7:20 p.m., a fireball appeared in the sky over the city of
Bologna, 300 kilometers (180 miles) north of Rome. "The UFO
crossed the sky for 15 seconds in a southeasterly direction." On
Monday, January 18, 1999, at 5:30 p.m., a UFO appeared over
Trescastagni, a town on the island of Sicily, described by
witnesses as "a luminous object that crossed the sky going from
the west to the south." "The group spotted the object near the
peaks of Tre Monti on the outskirts of Trecastagni and took note
of the luminous trail rising in the west. It crossed the sky,
lighting up the clouds like the last burst of sunshine and then
went in a southerly direction. Some witnesses spoke of one
object with three lights and a luminous molten glow. Others
spoke of a trio of luminous objects proceeding in formation. The
object reportedly zigzagged and its speed was too fast for it to
be a conventional jet." (See the Italian newspaper La Sicilia
1/19/99. Thanks to Gianfranco Degli Esposti e Alfredo Lissoni di
Centro Nazionale Ufologico) UFO Roundup Vol. 4. #4 1/25/98 Joe
Trainor Editor.

SIGHTINGS MORE LIKELY IN THE SUMMER AND FALL

Larry Hatch writes that he has found some surprising statistics
regarding monthly distributions of UFO sightings. Out of some
16,870 events in my database where a definite month is known,
one would expect roughly 8.3% of that number (about 1400 events)
to fall into each month. The data for all years is lumped
together. Instead, I find 6936 events in the first six months of
the year [41.1%] and, the other 9934 listings [58.9%] in the
last six months. A histogram shows slow activity right through
June, then the count nearly doubles for July, slowly falling off
into November. December is quite slow, much like the months
January thru June. In fact, if I throw December into a "slow"
period of seven months, the anomaly is even greater: Dec thru
June : Seven months averaging 1142 per month -vs- July thru
Nov.: Five months averaging 1779 per month! This cannot be
chance, no way with nearly 17,000 data points. Some seasonal
effect is at work (or play) here. Major meteor showers tend to
cluster in the last half of the year. But, I try to filter out
fireball and night-light sightings unless they have some other
outstanding attributes. To test for this effect, I ran the same
histogram for various types of UFOs, namely Saucer/ovoids,
cigar/spindle types, deltoids, night-lights, fireballs and so
forth. All types except Deltoids (triangles, boomerangs, etc.)
gave the same general histogram in proportion! Interestingly,
the Deltoids had a less marked end-of-year effect, and the curve
was shaped differently. No, it's not meteors. I should add that
the Geminid and Lyrid meteor showers occur in December and
April, two of my slowest months. My busiest month, July, has no
major meteor storms at all. Perhaps there is some demographic or
other mundane explanation, but I am at a loss for what it might
be. Naturally, I would like to believe that this effect is
intrinsic to the UFO phenomenon itself, but someone should play
devil's advocate here first. Best wishes: Larry Hatch Editors
Note: The increase in sightings in the summer and fall months in
the Northern Hemisphere may be explained by the fact more people
are outdoors in warmer weather. Also, the UFO pilots may prefer
to fly in warmer weather. The Deltoids may be secret military
aircraft that fly on a fairly regular schedule.

GEORGIA COMMENTS

British Aviation expert Bill Rose writes, I pretty well solved
the Troup County sighting for you. I believe the unknown
aircraft was a B-1B "Lancer" which is a large supersonic bomber
with a long delta winged shape. (with its wings folded) The
aircraft is powered by four turbofan engines and optimized for
low level flight and having photographed B-1Bs on several
occasions from fairly close quarters, I can promise you they are
very noisy beasts. It is also the case that the standard paint
finish for the B-1B is a dark gray color. Having now had time to
study a detailed map of the area and plot the course of this
flight, I believe I can say without any doubt that this was a
B-1B en route to Warner Robin AFB where the 116th Bomb Wing
operate these aircraft. This aircraft was definitely not the
Aurora, which is now thought to be a Mach 3+ reconnaissance
version of the still secret A-17/FB-119A that is designed for
very high altitude long range missions and would not perform
very well in low speed/altitude situations. The B-1B may have
been on a secret training mission when this sighting occurred.
These aircraft are now capable of seeking out Scuds and this
incident was just prior to the recent Gulf strikes. What does
surprise me a little is the fact that nobody seemed to know that
B-1B aircraft were operating from a major USAF base outside
Macon! --Okay, well maybe you didn't want to use a solution to
that puzzle! There simply isn't enough solid detail to draw any
conclusions. Thanks to Bill Rose bill.rose@virgin.net

Editors Note: The witnesses seemed to rule out any standard
commercial or military aircraft.

BOB DURANT PROPOSES "LIE DETECTOR" FOR MJ-12 FIGURE

UFO researcher and writer Robert J. Durant last night offered to
contribute five-hundred dollars toward a polygraph examination
of a key figure in the controversy over recently surfaced
documents purporting to show early US government and military
knowledge of extraterrestrial craft. The offer, made during last
night's live broadcast of The Mike Jarmus Show, a short-wave
radio and Internet program specializing in UFOs, the paranormal
and unusual, was immediately accepted by scientist and physicist
Dr. Robert M. Wood. Dr. Wood, with his son and engineer, Ryan
Wood, are the two primary supporters of the authenticity of
documents brought forward by California UFO researcher Timothy
Cooper. The documents, as a whole, are referred to as "MJ-12" or
"Majestic-12" material, so-called for the supposed secret
government/military group controlling UFO investigation,
information and "saucer" crash retrievals since the late 1940s,
the existence of which the papers are purported to prove.
Cooper, also appearing on the radio show, answered in the
affirmative when asked by researcher Durant if he would be
willing to submit to a polygraph examination. A short time later
Durant made the monetary offer to help secure the test and the
Woods responded very positively. Cooper claims he received the
material through his post office box over a period of time in
the mid-90s from a man calling himself "Cantwheel." Cooper says
he later met the elderly and mysterious Mr. Cantwheel, but that
he has not been able to establish who, in reality, his source
was. Physicist Friedman, a proponent of the "original" MJ-12
documents which surfaced nearly twenty years ago and are still
controversial themselves, also appeared on the broadcast. Though
Durant expressed some concern prior to the show as to Cooper's
reliability, he made no specific charge on or off the air that
Cooper's story was untrue, but emphasized the importance of
checking sources in every way possible. Durant today sent a
check for five-hundred dollars with a letter of understanding to
Dr. Wood stating, in part, that the Woods "...will raise the
additional amount required to carry out a 'lie detector'
[polygraph] examination of Tim Cooper to determine if he has
been honest in his claims regarding the various documents he has
furnished to you." After the broadcast Durant pointed out that,
with material as potentially important as this, every precaution
should be taken to preclude fakery. The Mike Jarmus Show is
heard internationally Sunday nights from 10 to 12 PM on WWCR,
Nashville (5.070 short-wave) Website,
http://www.njpeople.com/mike.

CAUS FILES A NEW FREEDOM OF INFORMATION ACT LAWSUIT

Continuing its legal battle under the Freedom of Information Act
against government secrecy, attorney Peter A. Gersten, Executive
Director of Citizens Against UFO Secrecy, Inc. (CAUS), a
nonprofit Arizona activist organization dedicated to ending all
secrecy surrounding this planet's contact with an
extraterrestrial intelligence, announced today the filing of a
new FOIA lawsuit. A 1998 CAUS lawsuit, still pending in the
Federal Court in Phoenix, is against the Department of Army for
documents involving the allegations of Col. Philip Corso in his
book The Day After Roswell. This new lawsuit is against the
Department of Defense for information about the alien craft seen
in our skies. Gersten, who will be accompanied by a dozen
eyewitnesses on the steps of the US District Court in Phoenix,
has stated "its time someone in authority is held accountable
and responsible for identifying these strange craft that are
continually sighted in our skies and sometimes over populated
areas. Its time we knew exactly what these objects are and more
importantly, their purpose." He describes these craft as "either
delta, boomerang, triangular or V-shaped; ranging in size from a
house to a football field; moving very slowly or apparently
floating; little or no sound; and with many lights including, on
occasion, a red trailing light." Some of these objects,
according to the CAUS director, were seen in the Hudson Valley
in 1984 through 1987; in Phoenix, Arizona on March 13, 1997; in
Salisbury, North Carolina from April-June 1998 and Sedona,
Arizona on July 15, 1998, as well as countless other places. One
eyewitness states that "I swear this craft just appeared over my
head. I can say for certain I saw lights at each one of the
three corners of the craft and at least one on each of the
sides. I did see what appeared to be either a large light or a
window directly in the center of the triangle. The eerie part
was the silence for a craft hovering so close. It disappeared
just as suddenly." "At a time when everyone is anxious about
terrorist attacks, its alarming that no government or military
agency appears concerned about these advanced craft that have
unrestricted access to our skies." Thanks to CAUS: Peter A.
Gersten, Ufolawyer@caus.orgUS and Stephen Bassett

REFLECTIONS ON ROSWELL BY DAVE RUDIAK

FILER wrote to David Rudiak that I enjoyed reading his research
on Roswell. It is excellent work. I have always felt Marcel was
telling the truth. All my data indicates something crashed near
Roswell not necessarily alien. However, they definitely went to
great trouble to keep it secret. It was a very special aircraft
either ours or alien. Knowing how the military works, it seems
odd that they could release a story in Roswell and so quickly
react in Fort Worth and Washington. I wonder if it wasn't a
setup? They may have felt the word had gotten out, so first you
tell the truth then take it away.

DAVE RUDIAK responds to my message stating: I didn't think that
at first, but I now believe that's exactly what happened, though
it was a daring gambit. However, I suspect coordination may have
been a little ragged between Roswell, Washington and Fort Worth,
leading to some surprise when the announcement did go out from
Roswell. Col. Blanchard may have had Haut release the story too
early. That led to a scramble in Washington and Fort Worth.
Until General Ramey got his weather balloon/radar reflector, he
had to improvise. He began giving out descriptions by phone of
what was supposedly in his office, though Marcel hadn't arrived
yet. That led to his peculiar description of the object being 25
feet across. Dave Vetterick and I have been mulling this over
and noticed the similarity to the Johnny McBoyle/Lydia Sleppy
story, which went basically like this. McBoyle called Sleppy in
Albuquerque saying that he had seen the military hauling off a
"crushed dishpan" about 25 feet long and also that there had
been discussion of small bodies being found. Sleppy said that
when she tried to wire McBoyle's story to ABC News, the FBI cut
her off. Then before she could phone in the story, somebody else
had "scooped" them. That most likely was the AP bulletin of Lt.
Haut's press release that went out at 2:26 PM Roswell time. An
hour or so later Ramey was speaking to the Pentagon Army Air
Force press room and talking about an object 25 feet across.
_Possibly_ what happened is that Ramey was quickly notified that
some newsman (McBoyle) might have broken the story and given a
25 foot description of what was recovered. Ramey then hedged his
bets by giving out the same description, though there was
obviously nothing in the radar reflector photos that Bond
Johnson took that could possibly lead Ramey to believe that it
could be 25 feet across even if reconstructed. But in case
McBoyle's story did leak out, they wanted to have a cover story
for that as well. The 20-25 foot description continued to be put
out well into the evening from the Pentagon, making it into a
number of newspaper stories and also ABC radio news at 10:00 PM
that night. It seems that attempts were made to deceive the FBI
as well. The infamous FBI telegram indicates they were given a
20 foot description by Ramey's intelligence officer, but this
was applied to the balloon instead of the radar reflector.

FILER: I don't really know what to think about RPIT debris
findings. They are certainly trying hard and the message is a
major find. I have seen a few of the symbols they talk about but
wonder if it is just the way the material crinkles. Bond Johnson
gave me the impression you were also seeing symbols?

RUDIAK: Not really. I think I wrote that maybe one piece looks
like it might have something like symbols on it. And I've said
I'm trying to keep an open mind about it. Maybe some "real
debris" brought by Marcel got mixed in with the radar reflector,
but basically what I see is a tinfoil radar reflector and a
balloon at Gen. Ramey's feet. No cord or string makes me wonder
about the debris. I'm most struck about the absence of such a
description out on the Brazel debris field. A Mogul balloon
train was held together with hundreds of feet of twine and
fishing line, yet nothing like that was reported. Even Brazel in
his RDR interview denied finding any. So what happened to it? If
you read the Air Force Roswell Report, Lt. McAndrew noticed this
anomaly and queried Professor Moore about it in his interview.
Could the twine disintegrate in the sun, asked McAndrew? No said
Moore. McAndrew dropped the subject, and not another word was
mentioned in the entire Air Force report about it. It worked
against a Mogul explanation, so the absence of line was swept
under the carpet and not brought up in McAndrew's or Col.
Weaver's summaries.

FILER Several other plane loads of debris were sent to various
bases for analysis. By chance the most mundane including a RAWIN
target reflector might have ended up in Ramey's office.

RUDIAK: I have trouble imagining that Marcel would bring
predominantly tinfoil and rubber balloon junk to show to Gen.
Ramey. The point of his debris samples would have been to show
Ramey exotic debris.

FILER: By the way it was Newton in a sworn statement in the AF
Roswell document that Major Marcel kept trying to point out
alien writing on the debris in Ramey's office.

RUDIAK: This was never part of Newton's original story when
first interviewed back in 1979. He also said back then that he
had no idea why he was brought to Ramey's office other to
identify a weather balloon, and he didn't find out about the
flying saucer connection until sometime AFTER he left. Nor did
he mention being questioned by Marcel. But in his 1994 AF
affidavit, he claimed he "giggled" at the so-called flying
saucer the moment he walked into Ramey's office. Then in 1995 he
told OMNI Magazine that Marcel practically chased him all over
Ramey's office trying to get him to change his mind. Does this
sound plausible to you? It doesn't to me. Instead it sounds like
Newton has jumped on the debunking bandwagon. In contrast
Marcel's service file has Ramey a year later calling him
"outstanding" and command officer material, and also protesting
his transfer saying he had nobody to replace him. It's rather
difficult to believe Ramey would write these if Marcel behaved
like the embarrassed idiot in front of him as Newton claims.
Ramey through Dubose also recommended Marcel's Reserve promotion
to Lt. Col. just four months after the Roswell events. Dubose
indorsed Blanchard's superior evaluation of Marcel ten months
afterwards. Again, none of these officers indicated in any way
that Marcel had screwed up, but were instead praising him.
Marcel then was posted to two top secret positions, the first
one as Chief of a SAC foreign air intelligence division. (There
is also correspondence between the SAC and the Pentagon where
they are competing for his services.) I honestly do not
understand how Marcel could get such a position, if he screwed
up a rather simple balloon identification. Thanks to Dave
Rudiak.


Crass commercials:

GET THE BEST REALTORS AND HELP UFO RESEARCH

As a special aid to our readers, we can help you obtain the
best real estate experts in your area at no cost to you. Make
sure you have a top notch agent, to buy or sell your home
often your biggest investment. We provide free relocation
information and consulting services from the largest and most
respected firms. If you are planning to sell or buy a home and
would like a top flight real estate agent give me a call at 609
654-0020 or e-mail me at Majorstar@aol.com.
Please send your name, phone number, address, price range
and location.

MUFON JOURNAL For more detailed investigative reports
subscribe by writing to 103 Oldtowne Road, Sequin, TX
78155-4099 or E-mail Mufon@aol.com.

Filer's Files Copyright 1998 by George A. Filer, all rights
reserved. Readers may post items from the Files on
their Websites provided that they credit the newsletter
and its editor by name and list the date of issue that the
item appeared.

Send your letters to George Filer at Majorstar@aol.com. If
you wish to keep your name confidential please so state.

  http://ufoinfo.com/filer/1999/ff_9904.html






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 30

                     Levengood To Look At Travis' Trees

From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@get2net.dk>
Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 03:21:43 GMT
Fwd Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 18:15:41 -0500
Subject: Levengood To Look At Travis' Trees


A comprehensive introduction to Levengood's crop circle research
is given in "High Heat" by David Perkins, which was published in
Western Spirit Magazine May 1998 and can be found in "The
Mysterious Valley" (Christopher O'Brien's site). URL:

http://home.amigo.net/tmv/Investigator_Message_Board.html

Stig

***

From: daydisk@webtv.net (charles stuart)
Newsgroups: alt.paranormal.crop-circles
Subject: Levengood to Look at Travis' Trees
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 17:22:07 -0500 (EST)


The trees near the alleged "landing site" of Travis Walton's UFO
have reportedly grown at an astounding rate since the 1975
incident outside of Snowflake, Arizona; much more than the trees
outside of the "ring of influence." Mike Rogers, foreman of the
lumber crew, and driver of the truck, (if you remember the
movie) told me in a recent phone interview that Dr. Levengood
and his assistant, Nancy Talbott, are documenting this anomalous
growth for a possible TV special to be shown in the fall.
Levengood, of crop circle fame, does not really believe in an
alien influence and for this reason, among others, was chosen
for the job...

cgs






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 30

                Majestic-12 Follies Returns (Barry Greenwood)

From: Ed Stewart <ufoindex@jps.net>
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 19:57:12 -0800
Fwd Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 18:28:38 -0500
Subject:  Majestic-12 Follies Returns (Barry Greenwood)


U.F.O Historical Revue #3, January 1999

Editor: Barry Greenwood
UHR
Box 176
Stoneham, MA  02180
USA

Online comments and correspondence addressed to Barry Greenwood
can either be sent to me at ufoindex@jps.net, or to Jan Aldrich
at jan@cyberzone.net. All such online correspondence will be
relayed to Barry Greenwood the same day received.

Ed Stewart




                U.F.O HISTORICAL REVUE
                    #3 January 1999

              MAJESTIC-12 FOLLIES RETURNS

     ( I had planned on a follow-up on long-duration
     meteors for this number of UHR, but recent
     developments on an MJ-12 revival warranted
     timely comment.  The historical reason for this?
     The documents are claimed to originate from the
     1940s through the 1960s, and are touted as
     genuine by believers in aliens visiting Earth.)


I was surprised to find in late 1998 that attempts were being
made by several individuals, primarily a Dr. Robert Wood, an
engineer, and his son Ryan, a marketing and sales specialist in
the computer industry, to resurrect the MJ-12 controversy. They
have claimed to have received new documents supporting the
notion the U.S. government actually investigated alien
spacecraft beginning in the 1940s, under the banner of
"Majestic- 12, supposedly a panel of eminent scientists and
government officials.

Readers familiar with this editor's involvement a decade ago
recall that I had published information as far back as 1985,
puzzling over the rumors of the possible existence of such a
group.  However, when physical evidence of the alleged group's
reality surfaced in the form of documents leaked from the
government by anonymous sources, I, and other researchers, had
concluded that the rumors of MJ-12 were false.  This conclusion
was based upon months of detailed analysis of the papers,
published in my previous journal, Just Cause, between 1987 and
1990.  Much of the UFO community at the time balked at the
suggestion that MJ-12 was a hoax and, despite the serious
problems described by researchers familiar with government
documents, happily endorsed MJ-12 as part of real history.  This
eventually led to books, a plot line in a TV series as well as
film, lectures, etc.

As we all know, making outrageous claims in today's world is
fashionable, chic and rewarding.  Even if such claims don't make
piles of money for the perpetrators, at least they became a
major topic of attention.  And if they are orchestrated well,
they can attract the media (the sponge in society that hungrily
soaks up outrageousness!)

MJ-12 led to a prominent novelist, Whitley Strieber, producing a
work (Majestic).  It led to an appearance by its promoters on
many television shows, including one of the top rated of its
time (Nightline).

MJ-12 eventually lost steam due to the torrent of problems that
became increasingly evident in the documents, the lack of any
independent confirmation from even a single documented
government source, and the lack of candor and cooperation of its
"discoverers," primarily William Moore and Jaime Shandera.  And
that is not to mention the questionable claims of being an
"unpaid government agent," along with other peculiar statements
by William Moore in a 1989 speech given in Las Vegas (Just
Cause, September 1989).

The key issue, the one overwhelming problem with the original
papers was their lack of provenance.  All the documents, save
one, came from an anonymous source.  The one document that was
"discovered" at the National Archives by Moore and Shandera (the
Cutler/Twining memo) was made known to the archives under such
suspicious circumstances that the chief of the Military Archives
Division was forced to issue a 10-point list of "problems" with
the document in an official letter dated July 22, 1987.  The
rest of the documents were not even originals but were sent to
the claimants on photographic film from which paper
reproductions were made.

Anything, anything at all that issues from an anonymous source,
particularly something claiming very unorthodox information,
must be regarded with the highest degree of suspicion.  If the
source won't even reveal an identity, what don't you know about
them, what do they hold back from you? What are the true motives
of the source, not the assumed motives that the recipient
ascribes to him.  If you find a T-bone steak wrapped in brown
paper sitting in your yard, do you take it in the house, cook
and eat it without question?  Unfortunately, that is what a lot
of the reading public did with MJ-12.

MJ-12 claims quieted down in the 1990s, in spite of efforts by
one of MJ-12's last vocal adherents, Stanton Friedman, to keep
it alive. It remained dormant until 1998.

THE COMEBACK

I was told that on October 11, 1998, a father and son research
team, Dr. Robert Wood and son Ryan, gave a speech at the Omega
Communications UFO conference, in which they claimed to have new
MJ-12 documents not previously made public.  These documents
were said to have come from another researcher, Timothy Cooper
of California, who in turn received the documents in his post
office box back in 1992 from a mysterious, unknown source named
"Cantwheel," who was said to have since passed away.

It was an all-so-familiar scenario: anonymous sources sending
sensational UFO stuff through the mail to little-known
individuals for unstated reasons, much the same as in the
original MJ-12.  But this seemed to have no impact at all on the
Woods as I was told that they had already endorsed the documents
as authentic.

Sometime later I was informed by researchers Ed Stewart and Jan
Aldrich that the documents were reproduced on the Internet.  In
late December, Stewart kindly sent me copies of the lot, along
with a transcript of the Woods' speech, to see why they would
come to such an extraordinary conclusion in light of the earlier
destruction on MJ-12.

There are some 15 documents, or 96 pages, used in the Woods'
study, well beyond what I can hope to deal with in this
publication.  So I will only deal with a selection of the most
notable curiosities.

As with the original papers, I look at these new documents
within the boundaries of the fact that they are from anonymous
sources and, as such, are of very suspicious origin. Nothing is
taken for granted except that they are suspicious. When one
looks at the papers once this is understood, the next question
is are what you are seeing beyond any possibility of being
faked?  If you have no original document, no source, no official
release authority, and if you know that authentic-looking fakes
can be created through compute technology, photocopy forgery
techniques (such as laying false text over a real, signed copy
of a document, and then recopying the whole, whitening out the
tell-tale seams of the overlay), or retyping whole documents
using vintage equipment and blank letterhead stationery (an
example of this in UFO history is the Straith letter hoax,
perpetrated by Gray Barker and James Moseley, with some inside
help from a supplier of State Department stationery), then any
investigation of these documents must have a low degree of
confidence in any positive conclusion.

The Woods even acknowledge this, to a point, in their speech,
"..we admit that authenticity is never certain" (Speech
transcript, page 4).  Yet in the same speech, "..we're going to
summarize why the documents are not fakes."  Commenting on one
document, the Oppenheimer/Einstein draft," the Woods say,
..there is one unusual authentication feature that ensures they
are genuine."  And further on, "We believe they're genuine."  So
there is little doubt about where the Woods are coming from in
this investigation.  Rather than be cautious about undocumented
sources, they are opting to "believe" in the documents.

In their discussion of the "Interplanetary Phenomena Unit"
document, describing crashed-disc recovery procedures, the Woods
argue that a mention of John F. Kennedy being knowledgeable
about a UFO recovery operation, due to his involvement with
Naval Intelligence, is impressive to the document's
authenticity.  This because, according to the Woods, few knew of
Kennedy's intelligence connection in 1947.  They add, "So the
person who wrote this, if it was in 1947, was one of perhaps 12
people in the country who knew this obscure fact." Do the Woods
here have a concern about the document dating from 1947?  If
they do, they don't say why.

And certainly, if the document were written in 1947 by a
government official, then we wouldn't be debating this at all.
But it is as plausible that a more recent faker would have read
a later book mentioning this and included it in his creation, at
least one citation of which the Woods acknowledge exists.  A
hoaxer would have had many years to research his topic.  For
this unofficially released, source-unknown document, the Woods
don't even raise the possibility that the later scenario could
have occurred, and instead declare this information to be a
"zinger," which according to the Woods, says almost by itself
that the document is genuine.  We are beginning to see an
erosion of objectivity in these few examples.

In their discussion of the "Air Accident Report," an alleged
document by General Nathan Twining describing the inside of the
crashed remains of a flying saucer in detail, the Woods spend
much time on document letterhead, logos, format and paper size
being consistent with the era written (1947).  In wondering
about a couple of the logo details, "These two things are so
obscure that unless you were digging around the National
Archives, you wouldn't know to pout this in a fake document. You
must ask yourself, why go to all this trouble."

Did the Woods even consider that prior to the original release
of the MJ-12 papers in 1987, there were a number of individuals
who had the following things in common:

     1) Spent long periods of time at the National Archives.
     2) Were knowledgeable, as a result of the Archives visits,
         with government formats, letterheads, logos, dating
         styles, paper sizes, etc.
     3) Were very knowledgeable about UFOs.
     4) Who latter promoted MJ-12 as real.


In one case, I showed how one MJ-12 promoter, William Moore, in
retyping unclear photocopies of green fireball documents for
sale, changed the dating style of the original documents to his
own peculiar dating style in four cases, which just so happened
to be the same, non-standard dating style used in the original
MJ-12 Briefing document (Just Cause, June 1990)!

Curiously, the Woods, in their 1998 speech, raise the most
questions about the Briefing Paper (not one of their Cooper
releases but the 1987 release).  They say, 'it seems reasonable
to conjecture that the Eisenhower Briefing Document might have
been a cleverly crafted piece of disinformation aimed at the
Soviets, and therefore the only document presented here that is
not entirely genuine, even though it contains much that is
precisely true."

Yet the Briefing was wholeheartedly endorsed as genuine by the
original team of researchers, Moore, Shandera and Friedman, and
still is by Friedman.  Whose years-long, professional detailed
analysis is correct? Or might we create a new category of
document authenticity: the falsely genuine!

In perusing chapter 8 of Friedman's book, Top Secret/Majic, we
find that Timothy Cooper supplied Friedman with copies of
several new MJ-12 documents a number of years ago, including a
February 1948 "Memorandum for the President" by Roscoe
Hillenkoetter, a September 25, 1947 memo to President Truman
from General George Marshall and a July 9, 1947 Truman to
Twining memo.  The later two were included in the Woods'
document package presented at Omega, and called genuine.
Friedman appeared to be noncommitted to those documents, but he
was clearly not impressed with the 1948 document, saying that it
was "really a doctored version of a memo that would have been
sent to President Roosevelt during World War 2."

This document was one of the first sent to Friedman by Cooper,
the same source as the Woods' papers.  Yet the 1948 document was
not included in the Woods' analysis.  Why?  They can't claim
ignorance of it because it was quoted in Friedman's 1996 book,
in the midst of the Woods' years long investigation. Did they
not want the public to know that some of the supply from
Cooper/Cantwheel were transparent fakes that couldn't make the
cut?  Some of the Supply? Yes, there were other problem papers.

Friedman alluded to "another bunch of documents" from Tim Cooper
(TS/Majic, pgs. 158-9) condemning one September 27, 1947
document as an outright fraud, and adding that "several other
items were retyped and slightly changed versions of old memos
and letters."  Neither were these Cooper/Cantwheel documents
dealt with in the Woods' analysis. Why?

Smells like a cover-up to me!

This particular situation is reminiscent of Moore, Shandera and
Friedman's handling of MJ-12 in the 1980s.  Then, too, documents
were withheld.  Does anyone recall the CIA "MJ- 5" document? Or
others like it?  They were ridiculous fakes, one of which was
part of the original release of MJ-12 documents by William Moore
in his "Focus" newsletter in 1987.  I had pointed out numerous
flaws in the document (Just Cause, September 1987, pg. 3).
Thereafter, it was dropped, along with companion documents, from
subsequent discussion by MJ-12 promoters. Why aren't they
mentioned in Friedman's 1996 book?

There is also, in both the old and new MJ-12 documents,
unaccountable censorship evident, text blacked out for no
apparent reason.  It is rather odd behavior for a government
source, leaking highly-classified papers to get the truth out
about alien contacts.  How may one know the truth by deleting
information?  In the case of the old MJ-12 documents, William
Moore subsequently admitted self-censoring his own releases,
evidently to give them a more mysterious, governmental
appearance.  I wonder who may have done this to the new
releases?

More needs to be said about signed documents.  The Woods make
much of the fact that signatures appearing in some of the papers
look real.  Indeed that is likely.  The signatures may well be
authentic for whom they are supposed to represent. However, the
Woods pay astonishingly little attention to the likelihood that
photocopy forgeries are responsible, especially given the
conditions under which Tim Cooper, and then the Woods, received
their copies (no originals, generations-removed photocopies).  I
had once investigated, while with CAUS, an alleged letter by a
University of Chicago professor, on university letterhead,
claiming knowledge of alien autopsies.  After I sent the
photocopied letter to the professor for comment, I had received
a midnight phone call from the university's attorney, asking for
the source of the copy.  The professor informed the attorney
that someone had placed false text over a real, signed letter of
his and recopied it.  He was quite upset that his academic
reputation would have been damaged if people believed what was
written.  It takes only minutes to create a document in this
way, and it can be done to anyone at any time who has written
and signed a document.  A reason to doubt photocopied evidence
from unknown sources?  Here it is! Friedman cites the February
1948 memo as containing a handwritten Truman signature and
Vannevar Bush initials, and calls it "doctored" (TS/Majic,  pg.
159), establishing that photocopied forgeries did come from the
Woods' source, Tim Cooper, and ultimately the mysterious
"Cantwheel."

Many UFO adherents have shown more than a willingness to accept
unsubstantiated statements attributed to an individual than
substantiated statements probably from that individual.  Albert
Einstein is already on the record as having a disinterest in the
UFO controversy, expressed shortly before his death.

In Exhibit 3 is a portion of a strange statement on
extraterrestrial life, allegedly by two of the most prominent
physicists in history, J. Robert Oppenheimer and Albert
Einstein. Crude phrasing and spelling are attributed by the
Woods in their analysis to "a secretary who couldn't spell."
(Oppenheimer/Einstein document, pg. 4)

With an incompetent secretary injecting so much of herself into
the text, Woods go on to claim, "Literary analysis compares
favorably with other Albert Einstein pieces during period of
interest."  How can the Woods say that this crude piece of work
is typical of Einstein writing, without providing any sort of
substantiation whatsoever for this alleged comparative analysis,
or claim it was Einstein at all if the secretary was such an
incompetent writer?  Did the document go to any Einstein
authorities for comment?  Any archive?  Any library holding
large amounts of Einstein writing?  Imagine Einstein or
Oppenheimer hiring a secretary who couldn't spell, given the
precise language and computative requirements of a physicist!
Imagine both approving of such a paper to be filed under their
names (it was in MJ-12's files, according to the Woods). If
Einstein were studying "Celestrial" matters under such
conditions, history would have been saddled with the famous
formula:

                       E=MJ(2)!


Another astonishing statement from the Woods in this regard,
"..forensic examiners find that errors present in documents tend
to indicate authenticity instead of lack of authenticity."
"Fakers usually try to make sure they're perfect." (!) So, the
Woods are trying to convince us that the more errors a document
contains, the more genuine it is! "Don't believe what makes
sense and believe in nonsense" is the logical extrapolation from
that.  The only problem is that non-fakers try to make sure that
their documents are perfect too.

So, if Albert Einstein has written a perfect document, we should
doubt it in favor of the error-riddled nonsense that the Woods
try to convince us is representative of one of the great minds
of history?

Is this what UFO "research" claims to be now ?

What of the Eisenhower Briefing Document mentioned earlier.  The
Woods reject it as "not entirely genuine," due to its perceived
errors (i.e. contradictions of fact with the new documents).  I
thought that errors indicated genuineness?  What happened to
that standard?  It was rejected because it disagreed with the
new documents, in which the Woods have chosen to believe.  By
what standard of fact do we judge the content of these
documents.  Both the Briefing Paper and the Woods' papers come
from anonymous sources.  How do the Woods know they don't come
from the same source? (after all, someone is dipping into the
master MJ-12 file and shooting the documents all over the
place!) What happened to security for the, claimed, most closely
guarded secret in world history?  Or why doesn't it all go to
CBS, NBC, New York Times, or even the Podunk Advocate to give
the info some corporate clout with money to do a good
investigation, instead of to measly UFOlogists who, as a group,
are no longer particularly respected or believed by outlets that
could do the topic the most good?

If the documents come from the same source, them both sets of
documents are supposed to be genuine.  How do the Woods explain
the contradiction of facts between the two sets in that case?
There is evidence for linkage you know.

If the Cooper-supplied documents are genuine, then they draw
information from the already-questioned Eisenhower Briefing.
How do I Know?  Because in Friedman's "Top Secret/Majic (pg.
145) he cites a Cooper-sourced document, the 1948 Memorandum for
the President, which the Woods inexplicably did not include in
their analysis.  The document references "092447" in the upper
corner, a clear allusion to the so-called "So-called Classified
Executive Order" (SCEO) listed as attachment to the Eisenhower
Briefing.  This was the Truman order initiating MJ-12.  Friedman
has already rejected this as a doctored version of a real,
non-UFO memo.  The SCEO, as I had discussed in my original MJ-12
report (Just Cause, September 1987), has no basis in fact, being
a fantasy creation by Friedman to explain the presence of the
suspect Truman document.  Real executive orders follow a
sequential numbering system, not a date-based system, and they
may be classified as the president sees fit, rendering "SCEOs"
as redundant.  To date, after intense research, no MJ-12
proponent have established the existence of SCEOs in real life.

Another problem with the Woods' assertion about the Briefing
being official disinformation: They say it could have been
created to mislead the Russians.  Yet it includes the SCEO in
full and references it in the text.  The Woods accept the SCEO
as authentic, "..the two big concerns about the type and the
signature: they've evaporated for Attachment A" (the SCEO). (the
Woods speech, 1998)

But they don't explain why one of the most highly secretive
documents in U.S. history is allowed to be given over to the
Russians freely when it has never been made available, even 50
years later, to U.S. citizens.  If the Russians have it, why
should it be a secret anymore?  It circulates in public now (by
a "leak") but not a single agency can document its existence.

So, if the Woods say that the Briefing is not entirely genuine,
we can't have confidence in what it says, despite Friedman's
support of it.  And if Friedman says some documents from the
Woods' source are fraudulent, we can't have much confidence in
that source of information, despite the Woods declaring their
papers to be genuine.  Both these parties support MJ-12 and are
in serious conflict here!  Why don't the Woods mention this in
their analysis, or mention their "missing" documents?

But there is more to come!

                     A FATAL FLAW



One of the most detailed documents in the Woods' collection is
"Majestic 12 Project - 1st Annual Report" (hereon referred to as
the "Annual").  They express their belief that the document is
genuine.  That in the several years of study that Woods have
performed, it has provided "no indication of fakery at all."
Seventeen pages of "specific, checkable details" are described
as the "mother lode" by the Woods.  They add that it will take
several man years to validate every phrase and claim. It didn't
take that long to notice a curiosity about its content.

Important to this discussion is when the document was said to
have been produced.  It is undated.  The Woods believe it to
date from the summer of 1952.  The inclusion in the panel list
(see Exhibit 1) of Dr. Hugh Dryden as Director of Aeronautical
Research, NACA, definitely places the document in the 1950s.
Dryden served as Director from August 1947 through 1958 when
NACA was absorbed by NASA.  Also on page 16 is a reference that,
"During recent NATO maneuvers, the USS Franklin D. Roosevelt has
been trailed by numerous UFOs..." clearly making reference to
the North Sea "Operation Mainbrace" naval maneuvers, during
which UFOs were seen, and photographed, in September 1952.
"Recent" doesn't place the document too much in time beyond that
date.

The Annual discusses a series of UFO and other strange incidents
in its "Annex C."  One was particularly noteworthy as I had an
interest in it as far back as the early 1970s.  Exhibit 4
reproduces that portion of the Annual referencing the
disappearance of the One Fourth Norfolk Regiment into a strange
cloud:

             Exhibit Four: Annual Extract

     In the annuls of warfare mass disappearances of
     soldiers and their equipment are rare but are on
     record.  In the eighteenth century during the
     Spanish War of Succession, 4,000 soldiers were
     reported to have disappeared, together with their
     weapons and equipment (horses included).  In
     1885, about 600 French colonial soldiers
     disappeared near Saigon, French Indo-China,
     without a trace of them nor their equipment.  On
     August 21 1915, members of the New Zealand
     Army Corps' First Field Company sighed sworn
     statements that they saw the One Fourth Norfolk
     Regiment disappear in a unusually thick brown
     cloud which seemed to move and rose upward and
     vanished.  There were no traces of the regiment
     nor their equipment.  No explanation can be found
     in the historical records of the Imperial War
     Museum archives.  In 1939, over 2,900 Chinese
     Nationalists troops were reported missing from
     their camp, just south of Nanking.  Again, men,
     equipment, guns, were missing though camp fires
     and mess tents were undisturbed.  During the
     Pacific campaign, there have been instances where
     whole platoons and larger units seemed to have
     disappeared without any sign of combat or a
     struggle.  Men, equipment, weapons --- vanish
     without a trace.  In all instances the
     disappearances occurred in tropical climate and in
     the heat of battle or near combat scenes.



But there was something seriously wrong with this!

The disappearance of the One Fourth Norfolk in Turkey during
World War I has been a staple of UFO pulp literature for many
years, having been cited pretty much as reproduced in the MJ-12
Annual through the 1960s and 1970s.  Even recently I have seen
it written up in tabloid papers.  It was this kind of
sensational treatment that led me and a friend to look into the
tale for a brief time in 1972.

A former co-worker in my regular job who had emigrated from
Britain to the U.S., and who was a British military history
buff, was fascinated when I told him about the disappearance. He
decided to send a letter to the Public Records Office in London,
asking for confirmation of the details.  His response, from J.L.
Walford, dated June 9, 1972, said:

     "According to the War Diary (WO 95/4325) for
     August 1915, the regiment underwent some light
     shelling on 14th August, but was otherwise
     entirely engaged on routine operations.  No
     casualties are reported for the month."

 I was rather surprised and disappointed that such an
interesting story didn't seem to have any substantiation for the
very strange disappearance of hundreds of men.  I attributed the
story to more sensation-mongering by writers on UFOs, and went
on to other matters.

It was not until some years later that I discovered the source
of the story.  In purchasing back numbers of old UFO
publications, I found that the first details on the
disappearance of the One Fourth Norfolk were published in an
affidavit signed by three former soldiers of the ANZAC landing
at Gallipoli, Turkey.  The festivities were held on April 25,
1965.  (see "Spaceview" - a New Zealand UFO publication,
September- October 1965, "Incident at Gallipoli" - where the
affidavit was reproduced, and February-March 1966, "Research on
'Incident at Gallipoli'")

First reported in 1965?!  There is more.

In August 1978, the magazine "Fortean Times" published a
detailed investigation of the Gallipoli disappearance by Paul
Begg.  Begg had conducted extensive document research in an
attempt to determine if the incident had occurred as written,
using military sources most likely to be able to document what
had happened.  His results:

     1)  The First-Fourth Norfolk was not a regiment
          but a battalion within the Royal Norfolk
          Regiment.
     2)  The First-Fourth Norfolk did not disappear at
          Gallipoli in August 1915 or at any other time.
     3)  It was an undisputed fact that a sister battalion,
          the First-Fifth Norfolk did disappear, but not
          on the date or in the manner said to have
          happened to the First-Fourth.


Begg described the disappearance of the First-Fifth Norfolk from
the "Final Report of the Dardanelles Commission, CMD 371" (1917)
as an advance by the battalion on August 12, 1915 at 445 PM into
a wooded area and amid a pitched battle, pushing the Turks ahead
of them.  The charge into the woods was the last heard of the
First-Fifth battalion as a unit. "Not one ever came back," said
the report.

However, according to Begg, they did not actually vanish. At the
end of the war a soldier of the occupation, upon touring the
battlefield, found an emblem of the Royal Norfolk Regiment. It
was learned later that a Turkish farmer found decomposing bodies
of British soldiers on his land upon returning after the battle.
The bodies were dumped into a ravine where they were later
discovered.  Of the 180 bodies found, 122 were of the
First-Fifth Norfolk.  Other members of the battalion weren't
found, but given battle conditions at Gallipoli, some possibly
taken prisoner and others having returned to camp after the
advance, not being lost at all, the lack of accounting for
around 100 men is far from mysterious.

Begg asked the New Zealand Ministry of Defense about the story,
whose representative, I.C. MacGibbon, responded, "if Reichardt
and his fellow Gallipoli veterans saw a 'bread-shaped cloud of
light grey color' lower itself into the path of the 1/5
Norfolks, why did they wait until 1965 before signing an
affidavit to this effect?"

Finally, on the strange cloud.  According to the Final Report of
the Dardanelles Commission, a reference was made to an
unexpected mist on August 21, that was unseasonable but
otherwise not unusual.  During an offensive that day the
Sherwood Rangers advanced into the mist and were destroyed by
Turks placed on the hills above the mist who had spotted the
Rangers' advance.

The disappearance and rediscovery of the First-Fifth Norfolk is
accurately recounted in Harold Wilkins' "Strange Mysteries of
Time and Space" page 162 (1958).  Wilkins was aware of the
disappearance but his reporting in no way resembled the telling
of the story in the affidavit.

It is apparent that the soldiers signing the affidavit had
confused a number of real events (documented) for a weird tale
(undocumented), not at all surprising at a 50th reunion of
elderly soldiers.

The First -Fourth Norfolks did not disappear.  The First- Fifth
Norfolks did disappear on August 12, 1915.  A strange mist did
appear on the 21st, but no one disappeared.

Now in light of these facts, how is it that a 1952 MJ-12
document recounts a flawed version of a story, which was unknown
before 1965, in fact a story unique to 1965, 13 years after the
document's claimed authorship?????  The MJ-12 version is based
more upon 1960s UFO pulp and newsletter accounts than it is on
historical record.  And we can probably eliminate the original
publication of the affidavit in "Spaceview" as a source because
it cites the 28th of August as the date of the disappearance.
In fact, I do recall seeing versions of the other disappearances
mentioned in the MJ-12 Annual's page 13 in UFO pulp literature
that I had read during that era.

One cannot avoid the conclusion that the Annual is a complete
fake.  How is it that the Woods did not notice this in their
years-long investigation? What does it say of the Woods'
investigation?  For all of the impressive appearance and content
of the Annual, one small mention of an alleged 1915
disappearance brings it crashing down in a heap, an anachronism
to the power of 12, MJ that is!  Claims by the Woods about type
style, language, format, security makings, signatures, and
"zingers" supporting the documents now have a hollow quality. It
makes one think that the legitimate use of such investigative
techniques under more normal circumstances, and in more skilled
hands, is worthless if they didn't work very well here.

But we should remember that, according to the Woods, errors tend
to support authenticity.  With that, this gaping error in the
Annual must prove its reality beyond all shadow of doubt!

The Woods state that the Annual's discussion on control and
denial is "possibly the most egregious outrage yet perpetrated
on the world public."  I can think of one other that comes
close: the new MJ-12 document investigation by its supporters.
For now, MJ-12 is again being promoted as genuine in lectures,
on radio, on the Internet, and in a forthcoming book, with
document copies being sold to an unsuspecting public.

An old adage applies here, "He who does not learn from the
mistakes of history is doomed to repeat them!"  A fantasy world
of revisionist history is being promoted by the Woods, fed by
unknown sources with suspicious paperwork.  It remains to be
seen how many more  years it will continue to distract
consumers from reality.

 --- Barry Greenwood ---
UHR
Box 176
Stoneham, MA 02180
USA
$15 per year
$20 foreign

The following referenced exhibits can be found on the web
wherever the new MJ-12 documents are being promoted or
displayed:

     Exhibit One: The MJ-12 Annual [First Page]
     Exhibit Two: Example of Irrelevant Censorship - The
     11/12/63 John F. Kennedy/CIA Memorandum]
     Exhibit Three: Extract from the Oppenheimer/Einstein
     Document
     Exhibit Four: Annual extract [retyped into this essay]



-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ed Stewart ufoindex@jps.net|So Man, who here seems principal alone,
There Is Something         |Perhaps acts second to some sphere unknown.
   Going On!       ,>'?'<, |Touches some wheel, or verges to some goal,
Salvador Freixedo  ( O O ) |'Tis but a part we see, and not a whole.
----------------ooOO-(_)-OOoo------- Alexander Pope, Essay on Man -----







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 30

                  Re: Deficiency In SETI's Drake's Equation

From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 23:22:01 EST
Fwd Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 18:33:01 -0500
Subject: Re: Deficiency In SETI's Drake's Equation


>From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj@proaxis.com>
>Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 17:01:51 -0800 (PST)
>Fwd Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 04:55:29 -0500
>Subject: Deficiency In SETI's Drake's Equation

>Have any of you sometimes wondered if there is any way we could
>cause a few SETI scientists to open their minds a bit, so as to
>include searching for any ETI who would be aware of our
>existence and perhaps interacting with us? I recently tried this
>using SETI's favorite Drake equation as the vehicle.

<snip>

>For those who haven't run into Drake's equation, it goes like:

>N = Rx . fp . ne . fc . fi . fc . L (N is a product of all these factors)

>where N is the No. of civilizations in our galaxy whose radio
>emissions are detectable from Earth; Rx is the rate of formation
>of suitable stars,... L is the "lifetime" of communicating
>civilizations.

>Notice that they leave out all civilizations that no longer
>utilize radio wave communications, plus other possibilities,
>though they allow L to be as large as millions of years.

<snip>

>What I have in mind is this. If Nd is the"N" of the Drake
>Equation (d stands for Drake), then it is evident that Nd refers
>only to those civilizations in our galaxy whose means of
>communication have not evolved much beyond the use of radio
>waves. Omitted then are the number of more advanced
>civilizations, Nadv, whose communication capabilites have
>rendered radio-wave communications essentially obsolete. Since
>most of these Nadv presumably possess large L (lifetime), it
>seems inconsistent that the L within the Drake Equation includes
>their presumed large L values while Nd itself excludes them by
>searching only through radio-wave telescopy.

<snip>

I received a mailer from Frank Drake and the SETI Institute last
November soliciting funds, in which Drake writes:

"Advances in science and technology are putting SETI on the fast
track as never before. A team of world-renowned astronomers,
engineers, and technologists -- specially commissioned by SETI
Institute -- has proposed bold and exciting new SETI ventures
that will provide humanity with its best opportunity to make
contact.

"We urgently need to build a new generation of telescopes and
signal processors. We must harness the potential of optical
infrared technology. These may be what it takes to detect a
faint radio or a flashing infrared beacon sent our way from
another civilization."

So apparently SETI is considering expanding the search into the
infrared and perhaps other domains. Freeman Dyson, e.g., has
pointed out for many years that the best signature of an
advanced civilization might be in the infrared rather than radio
spectrum. I think many readers are familiar with the "Dyson
sphere" concept, in which an advanced alien civilization
forsakes interstellar travel. Instead the most efficient way to
expand a specie's lebensraum might be to break up their solar
system and use it to construct an enormous, self- contained
spherical shell around their home star, thus capturing 100% of
the star's solar energy. If the shell were at present earth
orbit, e.g., the living space would be approximately 10^17 sq.
miles compared to the paltry 2.5 ^ 10^8 sq. miles we currently
have on earth's surface. In other words, building the sphere
would give you the living space equivalent to colonizing 250
million other worlds.  This would be the ultimate public works
project.

Dyson's point here is that all we would likely see of this
sphere is the infrared heat signature. Any radio wave
communications (if they still were used) would probably be
largely confined to the inside of the sphere.

>(Ntot could be extended further, of course, by considering any
>ETI who possess inter-galactic travel capabilities.)

Not to mention any ETI who possess INTRA-galactic travel
capabilities.  In fact this is probably the single biggest
shortcoming in the thinking of most SETIists, their assumption
that interstellar travel is essentially impossible. Well, that's
simply not true. Even barring some breakthrough propulsion FTL
propulsion scheme, sub-light travel is definitely theoretically
possible. It's not hard to dream up schemes (all very enormous
and expensive in scope by present standards) in which 10 to 30%
of light speed could be obtained. This places migration to
nearby star systems on the order of a few decades.  Now imagine
humans or other alien species learning how to greatly extend
their life spans to hundreds or even thousands of years. We
humans are on the verge of understanding the aging process,
slowing it down, stopping or even reversing it. With that done,
migrations lasting a few decades would no longer seem so
daunting, representing only a fraction of the total life span of
any individual.

But SETI assumes that aliens remain forever confined to their
home star system. Thus they generally restrict their searches to
the most earthlike star systems, one's that would most likely
evolve native life, rather than be colonized from beyond.

However, even one ancient, advanced, relentlessly colonizing and
expanding alien species (think Borg) could explore and colonize
every nook and crook of the galaxy in only a few million years.
At that point, throw out the Drake equation, because they could
be everywhere. Even if they colonized only sun- like star
systems, there are at least 10 billion such systems within our
galaxy. The nearest inhabited star systems could be very close
indeed. But SETI people generally censor the whole idea of
interstellar expansion and colonization.

Just to see how ingrained this thinking is in a SETIist like
Drake, here's something else he wrote in his solicitation:

"The first half of the movie ["Contact"], for the most part, got
the science right. But I'm amused when science fiction portrays
interstellar travel in movies and on TV as a breeze. Nothing
could be further from the truth.

"The best rockets now available travel at about 10 miles per
second. Even reaching the nearest star system, Alpha Centauri at
about 4.2 light-years distance, would take 75,000 years. There
are about 1,000 stars like the Sun within 100 light-years of us.
To investigate them all with spacecraft would take millions of
years and vast amounts of money."

Stupid reasoning, no? About as dumb and narrow-minded as Drake's
arguments dismissing eyewitness reports, which I took him to
task for a few months ago. Among the things he rejected, e.g.,
where absolutely consistent reports for the past 200 years from
fireball witnesses of hearing anomalous, instantaneous sizzling
sounds from the fireballs. This was an interesting, anomalous
phenomenon worthy of investigation. But Drake couldn't
personally conceive of a physical mechanism, instead declared
that it violated the laws of physics, and proposed a nonsensical
psychological explanation instead.

Little has changed nearly 30 years later. Now Drake is declaring
that the best that can EVER be done with rocket propulsion, even
after millions of years of human scientific advance, is our
present-day 10 miles/second. Talk about a collosal failure of
vision! I think Stanton Friedman would tell Drake they could do
better than that 30+ years ago with the nuclear-powered rockets
he was working on. NASA propulsion experts have all sorts of
advanced, _conventional_ propulsion schemes (no warp drives) on
the drawing boards that can do vastly better than 10
miles/second. NASA director Goldin is even talking of the
possibility of sending an interstellar probe in the next few
decades utilizing one of these propulsion schemes, a giant
laser-propelled sail. We're talking maybe 10 thousand, not 10
miles/second here folks.

We mere humans could probably accomplish this feat using known
physical principles within the next century given the money and
the will. But in Drake's SETI World (copyright 1999), humans and
aliens will forever be limited to chemical rocket speeds.

>Thus my search for persons within your organization interested
>in Ni seeks those who are not afraid of the "UFO" word, and who
>also can allow that the ETI involved could be far advanced over
>us in their intelligence and in the strategy they may have of
>dealing with much less advanced civilizations, not to mention
>their great headstart in science & technology.

Jim, you just don't understand. No matter how intelligent or how
great the headstart in science & technology, alien civilizations
will always be limited to chemical rocket speeds.  You have
Frank Drake's expert opinion on that. Therefore, they could
never show up here.  So stop whining, pony up your $25 to the
SETI Institute, and let the Real Scientists show us how to
search for those elusive aliens.

David Rudiak







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 30

                      Blather: Ancient Irish Astronauts

From: Daev Walsh <Blather <daev@blather.net>
Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 02:59:10 +0000
Fwd Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 18:40:02 -0500
Subject: Blather: Ancient Irish Astronauts

______________________________________________________
B  L  A  T  H  E  R

p a r a n o r m a l   p r o v o c a t e u r i s m

By Dave (daev) Walsh daev@blather.net
Web: http://www.blather.net
_______________________________________________________
January 29th 1999, Dublin, Ireland   Vol 2. No. 36
_______________________________________________________

_______________________________________________________
FATE Magazine: True Reports of the Strange and Unknown
Reporting on UFOs, psychic phenomena, ghosts and hauntings,
mystery animals, and other mystical experiences since 1948.
To subscribe, call 1-800-728-2730 (U.S.) or visit
http://www.fatemag.com
______________________________________________________

Ancient Irish Astronauts

Blather received this week a smattering of emails - actually we
exaggerate, it was just the one - which accused us of undue
sarcasm and a careless flexibility with 'the facts'. To assure
the readership that we would never stoop to such heights, what
follows is perhaps a Real and Factual Account of A Possibly
Fictional Hypothesis.

Much ado has been made about the great 120m stainless steel
spike which is soon to adorn the central island of Dublin's
O'Connell St., but little has been made of its importance as a
monument to the golden (or iron pyrite) age of Irish space
travel. In the beginning, there was the 205ft (62.5m) great
granite Wellington obelisk in the Phoenix Park - not a monument
to rubberised footwear, as some folk are wont to think, but
built as transportation for the reluctant Dubliner who favoured
that infamous boot, the 1st Duke of Wellington (a.k.a. Arthur
Wellesley, 1769-1852), when fears of a post-Napoleonic
Interplanetary War were at their peak.

Unfortunately, though building commenced in 1817, the spacecraft
(adorned with battle scenes cast from captured cannon) was not
completed until 1861, some nine years after the Duke's demise.
It was then thought too heavy to catapult beyond gravity's
reach.

The next notable entry into the Hibernian Space Race was Michael
'The Big Fella' Collins (1890-1922), recently hyper-immortalised
by actor Liam Neeson in one of those 'talkie' moving picture by
esteemed local director Neil Jordan. Collins was one of the
military blackguards (as opposed to the Black and Tans) behind
the events leading to the formation of the Irish Free State in
1921. He subsequently served as Commander-in-Chief of the Irish
army. Thanks to the negotiations between Eamon De Valera, Harry
Boland and NASA, Michael Collins was the first Irishman in
space, remaining in lunar orbit while his Apollo 11 colleagues
Buzz Aldrin and Neil Armstrong went walkabout on the moon. Some
commentators reckon that Collins didn't survive the impact of
the command module into the Pacific Ocean on July 24th 1969,
while the majority accept that he met his end in B=E9alnaBl=E1th
(The Mouth of Flowers), near Bandon, West Cork, on August 22nd
1922. Discrepancies between many of the reports lead to
suggestions from some quarters that the moon-landings were
hoaxed by Sinn F=E9in - subject matter for a forthcoming tribunal
in Dublin Castle.

This age of Irish Astronautism came to an end when Nelson's
Pillar (illuminated by a Professor Gluckman in 1849, when men
were men and electricians were professors) met a sticky end in
1966, a tragedy comparable to the 1986 Challenger Shuttle
incident. The Pillar's exit from the centre stage of Dublin's
skyward-looking lifestyle is far from a simple matter however,
with various factions vying for and denying the notoriety of
having done away with it on the 50th anniversary of the 1916
Rising, when Cork seer, astronaut and soldier Michael Collins
performed his extraordinary powers of levitation for a waving
and cheering populace outside the General Post Office on
O'Connell St, then known as Sackville St.

[General Post Office and Nelson's Pillar (engraving by the
Brocas family 1820)
(http://www.blather.net/images/featured/issue2no36sackvillebig.j
pg)]

Of course, not many people know that Collins found plenty of
time to frequent O'Heffner and Synge's *Playboy Club of Western
Europe*, a late-night wine bar in the basement of Speranza's
house in Lower Leeson St. It was here in the Playboy Club that
Lady Hazel Lavery, Collins' fiance Kitty Kiernan and a Chinese
girl called Chango (clad only in myxomatosis-free bunny-hide,
she soon left to inhabit the moon) were introduced to
intergalactic society by The O'Heffner.


Today Ireland's contribution to space exploration is more
subtle, with technological involvement in various projects, most
notably the European Space Agency and the Dublin Institute for
Advanced Studies School of Cosmic Physics. The Institute was
once lauded by his holiness Myles na gCopaleen for having proved
that there were two St.
Patricks and no God.

Dave (daev) Walsh
29th January 1999

______________________________________________________


NOTES:
*Nelson's Farewell* - The Dubliners song about the Nelson Pillar
Space Project
http://www.forst.uni-muenchen.de/~refo/poezio/nelson.html

Two St. Patricks
http://www.ncf.carleton.ca/~bj333/HomePage.flann.html

Lepufology, rabbits and Chinese girls on the moon. To be found in
*The New Inquisition*, Robert Anton Wilson
http://www.rawilson.com


European Space Agency
http://www.esa.int/

Dublin Institute for Advanced Studies School of Cosmic Physics
http://www.cp.dias.ie/cosmic.html

Wellington Obelisk
http://www.archeire.com/archdublin/19thc/wellington.html

The O'Connell Street Spike
http://www.archeire.com/onsite/spike/index.html

Michael Collins
http://www2.cruzio.com/~sbarrett/mcollins.htm


Michael Collins - the movie
http://www.michaelcollins.com

The General Post Office on O'Connell Street or Sackville Street as it
was then known.
http://www.michaelcollins.com/cmp/a1.html

______________________________________________________

NiceOne - Ireland's No.1 Internet Directory
NiceOne provides access to over 4,000 Irish Websites
supporting Irish products & Services on the World Wide Web.
(http://www.niceone.com)
_______________________________________________________

SPONSORSHIP:
While Blather will always remain free to the subscriber, we're
always willing to talk to interested parties with regard to
sponsorship.
Contact: daev@blather.net

_______________________________________________________

For the Blather archives, please go to:
http://www.blather.net/archives/index.html

_______________________________________________________


SUBSCRIBING TO BLATHER
Send an email to:
<list@blather.net>
with the word
subscribe
in the body of the message. An automatic acknowledgement
should be returned to you by e-mail within a few minutes.

UNSUBSCRIBING
Send an email to
<list@blather.net>
with the word
unsubscribe
in the body of the message.

TECHNICAL PROBLEMS
If you are having any technical problems,
please email admin@blather.net





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 30

              Re: 1999 UFO Alien Abduction Conference Announced

From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net>
Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 04:23:30 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 18:48:58 -0500
Subject: Re: 1999 UFO Alien Abduction Conference Announced


>From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
>Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 09:51:08 EST
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Re: 1999 UFO Alien Abduction Conference Announced

>>Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 13:58:24 -0500
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net>
>>Subject: Re: 1999 UFO Alien Abduction Conference Announced

>>>From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
>>>Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 09:28:07 +0000
>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>>Subject: 1999 UFO Alien Abduction Conference Announced

><snip>

>>>If Kevin Randle were to fly himself in, would he be welcome to
>>>address the conference? Certainly there should be a little time
>>>available.

<snipped for brevity)

Kevin wrote:

>In many of those conferences the agenda is out there for
>everyone to see. If Richard Boylan is the conference organizer,
>then it is clear to everyone that nothing considered "negative"
>will be presented. All New Age philosophy will be endorsed and
>all evidences of scientific thought will be rejected.

Geez Kevin, you mentioned the "unmentionable one." EBK must have
been drowsy when this one came across his screen. The mere
mention of Heir Doktors name _usually_ ellicits a loud
"hrrrumph" from him. <G>

[Looked long, harrumphed, looked harrumphed and posted--ebk]

>The IF conference seemed to one that was going to be
>scientifically oriented. I thought it would be a good arena in
>which to introduce some thoughts about the abductions with an
>eye to helping some of those who believe they might have been
>abducted and who are looking for some answers.

We both know that there aren't very many reliable "answers"
available. I (and I don't think any of the invited speakers)
would ever presume to have or provide "answers" especially to
many of the larger questions. "Helping folks" or providing
information is what the website was set up to do. That isn't
what the conference is about, or geared for. Besides, in a
conference setting, trying to 'help' or to give answers (without
dealing with individuals and their specifics) would be a tough
act to pull off, and IMHO would be tantamount to 'recruiting' or
in some cases polluting/preconditioning the listeners. Contrary
to popular belief, in our work with individuals we avoid -any-
of that like the plague.

>It is not a negative view but a simple statement to suggest
>that, in my opinion, a little balance could be used.

That was strong language you used in that post Kevin. When you
tell folks to expect a one sided presentation it would be hard
_not to_ take it as a negative slam. Maybe I'm just to close to
it (conference) and I read more into your remarks than you may
have intended, but it came off (to me) as a slam on the
conference and the speakers.

>The list of
>the speakers (and here I may again irritate Jerry Clark) seemed
>to have all come down on a single side in the debate. I have
>read each of the books produced by the participants and can
>guess at the direction they will take. I thought a cautionary
>hand might round out the picture. That was really all that I
>thought.

If you had couched it in those terms in your original you never
would have heard from me (or probably Jerry either!) You'll have
to admit that the above paragraph is much more benign than the
'tone' of your original.

>As for knocking you all over the internet, isn't that something
>of an exaggeration? I personally posted my message twice, both
>times to closed discussion lists. I have not posted it to any of
>the open news groups, and in fact, haven't looked at any of
>those in several months.

Aw Kevin, now you're being coy. You've been around long enough
to know that anything that is posted by someone as well known as
yourself, will get reposted ad nausium all over the place. And
in no time flat! They don't call it the World Wide Web for
nothing partner. In 24 hours a post from UpDates could have made
it around the world at least three times. Yeah, it reaches a lot
of eyes. And you know that. "Exaggeration?" I don't think so.

>I also knew, when I posted the comments, that they would invoke
>a number of nasty responses (not that I would consider that
>written by John Velez nasty) and they have.

No nastiness was intended by me Kevin. Although my 'first draft'
is not the one that made it to the list. <lol> I'm glad it
didn't. Those 'first reactions' can be murder if you hit the
'send' button too quickly. <G>

>It is clear that many don't want to see anything that suggests
>an alternative answer to any aspect of the abduction phenomena.

Get a snack Kevin, this is a lengthy response. <G>

I don't know if your use of the word "many" is accurate or a
fair characterization. I have been waiting for years for any
"other" plausable explanation. In point of fact, I'd rather
think that I'm nuts! At least that way I can simply eat my
Prozac (or gorilla bicuits, or whatever they're prescribing
nowadays) than live my life with this. I could simply go and get
help and help myself. It is my experience in working with others
that that attitude is widely shared by abductees. (Most folks)
would much rather believe they're nuts than believe abduction.
But then I'm not crazy or imagining things. Many others feel the
same way. Before I ever went to Hopkins I had my self evaluated
psychologically. I'm not crazy or dysfunctional so, (for me)
purely 'psychological' explanations just don't hold much water.

No one_ (as yet) has postulated anything that I (and many
others) can consider as a viable "alternative" expanation for
what has been happening to me, (us) and mine, (our loved ones.)

I'm not one of those that is basing their conclusions on
nebulous, or half recalled material. I _have had_ _close up_
encounters with silent, glowing, hovering discs. Hours of
"missing time," visits to emergency rooms where I am asked by
E.N.T. specialists about the "surgery" I have had in my head, or
my abdomen, (I have never had any surgery in my head or my gut!)
Then there is the physical evidence that I have witnessed first
hand among my family members time and again. That's an awful lot
to dismiss as "media influence" or temporary psychosis or
whatever.

I was there, I saw, I felt, I remembered. It happened. The
moment someone can give me a (sensible) alternative explanation
for any of the above, I'm open man. So far, no soap. No _one
thing_ I have heard from anyone addresses -all- of the above.

What does make sense because it -fully- explains/fits
_everything_ I have experienced over a lifetime is this;

UFOs (yep, I've seen em) manned by nonhuman beings, (yep, seen
them too) are taking people, (yep, I've been taken) and
performing "medical-like" proceedures, (been dere done dat)
among "other things" for reasons unknown. The encounters can
leave physical traces, ie; marks, scars, ground traces, and even
active bleeding afterwards. (been dere done dat!)

So you see, simplistic psychological or media explanations don't
take into account the physical aspects. Media influence although
it may be valid for someone born in the last couple of decades
doesn't apply to me because I'm a fifty year old fart and when I
was a kid my parents were poor and we didn't have a TV or go to
movies much through my first 6 or 7 years of life. Yet I have
-clear- childhood memories (that I have carried with me all my
life) about 'little skeletons' that used to take me out of the
house and up to the sky. My mother caught me slamming myself
repeatedly into a wall when I was four or five because I was
attempting to walk through it. I _knew_ it was possible because
I had done it with 'them.' We're talking 1953 Kevin. Show me
"Greys" or "floating through walls/floors/cielings" or any
number of other things that I have failed to mention in any
"media" of the time. Remember, we didn't own a TV and the only
movies I saw as small child were Disney flicks. (Davey Crockett
and Dumbo etc.) No "Greys" in any of those. One other thing,
have you noticed that the "alternative explanations" are _all_
mutually exclusive? And no (one) of them explains _all_ of the
aspects of what is being (commonly) reported.

>When, in North Carolina, I suggested only that we must
>do better than suggest "there are no traditional sci-fi gods
>and devils" that correspond to the abduction phenomena,

There certainly are now. I agree. But it doesn't go far enough
Kevin. It doesn't address fully conscious multiple witness UFO
encounters/sightings, the physical aspects of abductions or any
of the other reported phenomena. None of the alternates offered
to date have addressed the 'whole.' Just parts. Bits and pieces.

Also, (and this is a big bone of contention with me)

None of them _ever_ take into account that (some folks) may
simply be telling the truth to the best of their ability.

That's why some folks get a little pissed. It's like being
called a fool or a liar.  Facts are facts, and the truth
(whether you are able to prove it right away or not,) is still
the truth. I don't know if you can understand where I'm coming
from Kevin. I'm not selling anything. I can only go with what I
clearly and consciously recall, and I can only try to report it
in as unembellished a way as I can.

>there were those who heard me attacking abductees.

Hey man, don't feel bad. I'm an abductee and I've been called a
skeptic! (By other abductees! <G>) And only because I believe
that anyone going public should be 'willing' to substantiate
their claims as best they can. (By being willing to submit to
psychological/polygraph/medical or other forms of verification.)
Private individuals have no such obligations. I get beaten to
death for that little 'opinion.'

>All I was saying was that we
>could, if we looked, find various elements of the abduction
>phenomena in science fiction and pop culture, and that we had
>better find ways of dealing with that information rather than
>simply dismissing it.

There's really only one way to "deal with it" Give "it" credence
over the reports of the experiencers. Doesn't make much sense
when looked at in that light does it. It _may be_ valid in
(some) cases. But, it only serves to minimize what is being
honestly reported by many credible individuals. Price is too
high just to prove that (a few) are/may be influenced by media.

>I would, of course, have
>preferred to make the argument myself, but that is not to be.

My high school basketball coach used to say; "Buck up boys,
there's always next year! <VBG>

Greg is a fair guy Kevin. Submit some questions for the 'panel.'
I'm _sure_ Greg will use what he can during the discussion. I
certainly have no objections to your having some input. Your
work and reputation have earned you the right to be heard. We
aren't out to deny you that. (Contrary to your original remarks
about us and the conference.) <G>

Regards, and hopefully still on friendly terms,

John Velez
________________________________________________
                                jvif@spacelab.net
INTRUDERS FOUNDATION/ABDUCTION INFORMATION CENTER
                            http://www.if-aic.com
"Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind."
________________________________________________







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 30

                            Alfred's Odd Ode #291

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 06:51:43 -0600
Fwd Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 18:50:33 -0500
Subject: Alfred's Odd Ode #291


Apology to MW #291 (For January 30, 1999)

One pays a price for thinking thoughts, regarding ebbs and
flows, of the inculcated gracelessness we know as "status quo".
UFO's are surly counter to this *fog* that's been contrived;
what the few can call a blessing, but by most is _most_
despised. Its sullen grasp exceeds its reach, discounts a human
contribution; it's the hunger and its gracelessness they employ
for _more_ confusion. This hunger and its gracelessness is the
tool to be deplored (!) -- is the fuel for what reduces us, and
what drives us to the floor.

Most pray for some stability (which they'll have at _any_ cost).
They'll let the *man* run rampant -- never worry what's been
lost. They'll eat the pap the *man* gives out and swear by its
veracity, forgetting _holes_ he's leaving as if _worthy_ of
apostasy. Forget *accepted* models (based on shallow
supposition); forget they _make_ a rebel, and what they _do_ to
opposition. Forget they boycott publishers, and can make the
money scarce! Forget they _play_ the music, AND they're sitting
in the chairs!

It's hard to have a steady deck, or stars to steer her by, when
the rules are double dealing, and the field is a slide. It
breeds its own corruption -- another wrong to make a right
'cause "just plain folks" won't spread their cheeks; they'll
hunker down and fight!! But, hamstrung by *convenient* want of
_expensive_ education, folks are blathered by possession, and
betrayed by orchestration. They ape the mainstream party line of
blindness to their ills 'cause the *curing* costs the change
they'd face for paying down their bill!

We KNOW there's stuff that fills the sky with colored, flying
light! The evidence it's *thinking* tends to qualify our fight!
And _fight_ it _is_ as more is known, and the longer _you_ hold
on -- shall determine depths of failure we achieve when things
go wrong! Give it up, you cruel elite, entrenched in your
convenience. Your day is past, not worthy a scintilla of
bereavement. Give in to _toleration_, and the peace that it can
bring. Admit at last autonomy, that we're, each _one_, queens
and kings! Give out the information we, by right (!) should
surly have. If GE=99 drops a trillion, well that's a shame, and
too damn bad! Don't _pretend_ to save us from the *awful*,
*scary* truth. Don't protect us from reality, just let it go!
Let loose!!

We'll _lose_ to gain a bigger prize of honest satisfaction.
We'll lose, and have the finer things we've lost in past
distractions. Our loss will be collective gain! Mere _pennies_
for the stars! We're mining all the asteroids -- it's NOT a
bridge too far! What's gone provides the _greater_ gain -- no
more we'll bow and scrape! We shan't abuse our planet that we
use up, foul, and rape. No more phony "mastery", but righteous
steward-ship. No more crass authority to give us grief and lip!
Each decides his own glad fate, with all his bases covered --
that power's _individual_ is the wealth that we'll recover!
Every _man_ defends his castle -- and every _woman_ has her
home; they _earn_ it *just* for living, just for having finger
bones! Every one is safe, and glad -- and health care is
_assured_. And we're set free from _tyranny_ to which we're
presently detoured!

Lehmberg@snowhill.com

Respect the elder child, of any age or station, as much as you
respect the unborn one, and preclude our flag's ablation. Yeah,
that's right -- brought into this world, not _only_ a free lunch
(!), but a free bed and roof!! That's how _important_ the
individual needs to be -- unfettered by hunger, disease, and
abuse -- poised to make a self actualized contribution to an
appreciating culture that respects it . . . for _merely_ being
brought into this cruel unforgiving world (_forgetting_ it'll
bring the saucers down. <g>).  What tools, used to accomplish
the preceding, are sitting in dusty repositories (?) -- hidden
away from the minds, hands, and hearts of those, the currently
disrespected, who have paid, and paid _dearly_ for them!

Restore John Ford.


--
Explore the Alien View!
Ponder the Wit & Wisdom of Ching Chow!

http://www.fortunecity.com/roswell/arecibo/46/

<Updated 28 January>

John Ford Restoration Fund -- Send your checks and
money orders to _me_, Alfred Lehmberg
(cut out the lawyers, they got their's) at:
304 Melbourne Drive, Enterprise AL, 36330. Strict records kept.

"Only thin, _very light_ envelopes with a return address will be
accepted <g>." ~~~ $225.00 pledged -- $125.00 collected ~~~

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see from
afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, while burning at the
fundamentalist's stake.






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 30

               Hearing On U.S. Spacepower In The 21St Century

From: Patricia Mason <pmason@ee.net>
Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 08:39:50 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 18:54:26 -0500
Subject: Hearing On U.S. Spacepower In The 21St Century


http://www.nro.odci.gov/speeches/29SepSFR.html


Statement By

Assistant Secretary Of The Air Force (Space)

and

Director, National Reconnaissance Office

Keith R. Hall

Before The

House Science Committee

Space And Aeronautics Subcommittee,

House National Security Committee

Military Research And Development Subcommittee,

And House National Security Committee

Military Procurement Subcommittee

Hearing On U.S. Spacepower In The 21St Century

29 September 1998



I am pleased to be here today to discuss the changing
environment of space in the 21st century and the growing role of
spacepower in U.S. national security. I would also like to
outline the initiatives undertaken by the Department of Defense
(DoD) and the Intelligence Community (IC) to ensure that the
United States maintains space-based information superiority in
the next millennium.

Criticality of U.S. Space Capabilities

Today U.S. space capabilities are the indispensable tools of
global leadership. They allow our political leaders to base
decisions on a remarkably solid, broad, and detailed foundation
of information. Space systems enable our military leaders to
dominate the battlefield by providing global communications,
precision navigation, accurate meteorological data, early
warning of missile launches, and signals and imagery
intelligence support. The global presence of space systems makes
it possible for the U.S. to more effectively address the wide
range of threats presented by the post-Cold War world.

In the future, U.S. forces will rely upon space systems for
global awareness of threats, swift orchestration of military
operations, and precision use of smart weapons. As we move into
the new millennium, one of the key goals of military space power
will be migration of Intelligence, Surveillance, and
Reconnaissance (ISR) from traditional terrestrial platforms to
the high ground of space. Combined with global communications
and high speed information processing, ISR will deliver precise
military firepower anywhere in the world, day or night, in all
weather. Our goal is to detect, track, and target anything of
significance worldwide and to get the right information to the
right people at the right time. This capability will allow the
U.S. to maintain a nonintrusive global presence and deliver
precision weapons on target to maximize combat power while
minimizing collateral damage.

A New Space Environment

While the United States has long enjoyed dominance in space, we
can no longer take this advantage for granted. The utilization
of space is changing rapidly and we will not be able to maintain
our edge in the future without careful planning, prudent
investment, and shared commitment to a common goal.


We are now in a critical transitional period. In past decades,
the United States was the most powerful and effective member of
an exclusive club=97few nations could field satellites. In the
future, the growth of the commercial space industry will open up
this club to anyone with the price of admission. Space assets
will be available to our adversaries during peacetime, crisis,
and war. Capabilities that are U.S. secrets today may be common
knowledge tomorrow. Space will become an increasingly crowded
and contentious arena.

Strategy for Continued Space Dominance

Loss of the advantage space now gives the U.S. in national
decision making and military operations would be a severe threat
to our national security and to our international stature. The
United States can=97and must=97continue to field space systems that
are more capable, more agile, and more reliable than those of
our adversaries. We must develop unique collection capabilities
against the most intractable intelligence targets. Finally, we
must be prepared for the possibility that our adversaries will
target U.S. government or commercial space systems.

I would like to highlight some of the key elements of our
strategy for ensuring space-based information superiority:

First, we are strengthening research and development to achieve
revolutionar y breakthroughs in capabilities. Second, we are
strengthening our space programs through partnerships between
the National Reconnaissance Office (NRO), the Air Force, and the
National Aeronautics and Space Administration (NASA). Third, we
are leveraging advances in the commercial space industry to
lower costs and improve the capabilities of our satellite
systems. Finally, we are conducting research on ways to protect
our space assets. Let me elaborate on each of these areas.

Achieving Revolutionary Advances

The NRO is now moving from an evolutionary to a revolutionary
research and development profile. This approach aims for quantum
improvements in U.S. capability to collect against hard targets
such as weapons proliferators, to support military operations,
and to counter foreign denial and deception efforts. The NRO is
now close to achieving a goal of devoting 10 percent of its
budget to Research and Development (R&D). Consistent with this
investment, the NRO has established an Advanced Systems and
Technology Directorate to manage R&D programs. This
directorate=92s charter is to accelerate the process of
identifying, developing, and adopting new technologies.

This is not a unilateral effort. In 1997, the Air Force Research
Laboratory, and NASA created the Space Technology Alliance to
coordinate the development of affordable, effective space
technologies. This will allow us to avoid duplication of effort
and ensure that we get the most out of our R&D funds. The
program includes an exchange of personnel among the three
agencies and biannual senior technology summits to review
programs.

Space Partnerships

In an era of shrinking defense and intelligence budgets, we can
no longer afford to maintain separate domains for black and
white space programs. Future U.S. space dominance will rely on
successful collaboration between the NRO and the Air Force to
deliver the space systems of the future sooner, better, and
cheaper. As the Assistant Secretary of the Air Force for Space
and the Director of the NRO, I have worked with General Myers
and his predecessor, General Estes, to ensure that we will be
able to meet the needs of national and military users. Let me
describe two key efforts to achieve this cooperation.

In August, the Secretary of Defense (SecDef) and the Director of
Central Intelligence (DCI) appointed General "Mitch" Mitchell
National Security Space Architect (NSSA) to develop, coordinate,
and integrate DoD and Intelligence Community Space
architectures. This position was created in response to a
Presidential Decision Directive, which directed that the SecDef
and the DCI ensure close coordination of defense and space
activities. The NSSA will use the body of work produced by the
DoD Space Architect as a point of departure to build an
integrated national security space roadmap.

We have formed an Air Force-NRO Integration Planning Group, a
small team that will search out new collaborative ventures to
enhance our capabilities, reduce the costs of space services,
and improve our support to the military customer. This team will
develop and promote new ideas and serve as the focal point for
examining and coordinating innovative Air Force-NRO program
integration concepts.

The Global Positioning System (GPS) initially conceived as a
precision navigation system for military forces, has now grown
into an international industry. In 1996, the President directed
that the highly accurate GPS signal be made available
unrestricted to the civil community. The Department of
Transportation now plays a key role in the administration of the
GPS system along with the DoD. Together we are coordinating with
our international partners to make GPS the world=92s navigation
system of choice. To that end, the Japanese have just announced
their intention to work closely with the U.S. to promote broad
and effective use of GPS.

In the area of meteorology, the Air Force=92s Defense
Meteorological Satellite Program will soon evolve into the
National Polar Orbiting Environmental System, a joint DoD and
National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration (NOAA)
operation. The convergence of the DoD and NOAA satellite
meteorology systems will save the U.S. government $1.3 billion
and create a more robust environmental sensing architecture.
This architecture will also include a European partner, the
European Organization for the Exploitation of Meteorological
Satellites, who are providing one of the three satellites in the
constellation.

Leveraging the Commercial World

The rapid expansion of commercial satellite communication will
bring affordable, mobile communications to every corner of the
globe and create a new information infrastructure for banking,
commerce, medicine, science, diplomacy, and education. Shortly
after the turn of the century there will be an estimated 1800
commercial communication satellites on orbit to serve as the
information backbone of the new global economy. This space-based
information network will tie together the world=92s economic,
government, and societal institutions in new and unpredictable
ways. Commercial remote sensing will also continue to grow and
improve from the 2-5 meter resolution now available on the world
marketplace.

The DoD supports the growth of the commercial satellite industry
and we are already taking advantage of commercial technologies,
as well as commercial manufacturing techniques, to reduce costs
and increase efficiency. The lessons learned from mass
manufacturing of commercial satellites will provide benefits for
both government and industry. The Evolved Expendable Launch
Vehicle program is the next step in reducing our launch costs
and creating a more operable and responsive spacelift
infrastructure. The launch demands of the commercial space
industry will drive significant improvements in range
modernization and reusable launch technology. In turn, the U.S.
military will benefit from a more robust launch capacity and
U.S. industry will gain a more competitive footing in the
international launch market.

The DoD and the IC are beginning to share the burdens of raw
technology development and the costs of industrial
infrastructure with a successful commercial industry. This will
act to lower costs for satellite development and manufacturing.
Some of the most promising areas for cost reduction include
launch services and the use of commercial satellite buses=97the
NRO is already using a commercial bus for some satellite
systems. Our eventual goal is to move the production of
satellites from a craft industry to a manufacturing industry
that can deploy national security space systems better, cheaper,
and faster.

I welcome opportunities for commercial solutions to other
government space requirements. For example, if a mature
commercial imagery system can provide mapping data, then the
U.S. government need not finance fully redundant capability.
Instead, the NRO would concentrate on more technically
challenging space-based intelligence collection methods.

Preparing for the Future

As the President=92s national security strategy states, "We are
committed to keeping free and open access to space for keeping
the peace and in support of national security." Our space
capabilities are major elements of our national strength and we
must ensure that they are protected. We must conduct the
appropriate research to this end.

Conclusion

Our space assets are an immensely valuable national resource. As
foreign and commercial space sectors continue to grow, we must
seriously consider our growing national dependence on space
systems and the protection of those national assets. If the
United States is to accrue the full advantages of space in the
future, we must maintain the world=92s preeminent space
capability. Achieving this goal will require close cooperation
between the NRO, the Air Force, NASA, and other agencies, as
well as a strong relationship with the commercial space
industry. It will also require the unwavering support of
Congress. It will take time, coordinated effort, and significant
resources to ensure continued U.S. space dominance, but it will
be one of the most important investments we can make to ensure
U.S. global leadership in the next century.






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 30

                                 BAR 199901

From: Buffo Calvin BufoCalvin@aol.com
Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 10:34:46 EST
Fwd Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 18:58:19 -0500
Subject: BAR 199901


Bufo Calvin<BR>
P O Box 5231, Walnut Creek, CA  94596<BR>
Internet: BufoCalvin@aol.com<BR>
Website: <A HREF="http://members.aol.com/bufocalvin">http://members.aol.com/bufo
calvin<;/A><BR>
<P>ALL RIGHTS RESERVED (permission is granted to reproduce or redistribute this
edition of Bufo's WEIRD WORLD provided that attribution is made to http://member
s.aol.com/bufocalvin. It is good etiquette to check with strangers before you e-
mail them something.  If you forward this, please make sure it is clear that you
 are forwarding it).</P>

January (Vol. 2, #1)

Books mentioned in BAR can be ordered on most e-mail systems by clicking on
the hyperlink title. This will take you to the book at Amazon.com. You can
read more about it at that point and decide if you want to order it. If you
do, you add it to your "shopping cart". Then, if you want another title
mentioned here, please click on it in this post. If you have questions, please
e-mail Bufo at <A HREF="mailto:bufocalvin@aol.com">BufoCalvin@aol.com</A>.
Books are also available by phone from Greenleaf Publications at
1-800-905-UFOs (1-800-905-8367). If you call, please be sure to tell them that
Bufo sent you.
If you have books to recommend, please let me know. If you would like to be
named as recommending it, include that information as well and tell me you
would like to be cited.

In this issue: Feature Title; Recent Arrivals; and Things to Come
FEATURED TITLE:
UFO HEADQUARTERS
<A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0312193475/bufosweirdworld">
UFO Headquarters</A>
Subtitle: Investigations on Current Extraterrestrial Activity
by Susan Wright
Hardback, 271 pages
Bibliography, resource listing, photograph section (no index)
September 1998

This book may, in some ways, represent the future of non-fiction publishing.
The author seems to have made reasonable, extensive use of the Internet.  Not
taking what is said as simple truth, she goes the highly unusual step beyond
of actually following up on the assertions via (gasp) phone calls (among other
things).  This gives her not only current speculation, but a good degree of
critical examination.

Her subject, the "UFO Headquarters" of the book's title, is the base that has
loosely been referred to as Area 51.  While the book does stray beyond that,
it brings us all the usual players.  However, I'm quite certain that anyone
reading it, even with extensive prior knowledge, would be likely to find
something new.

I would have liked to have seen more structure to the book: I can typically
identify what I call "the gambit", where the author makes an opening
statement, and some kind of sum up.  In this book, there really are neither:
it reads almost more like a website, with one "link" taking the reader to
another with very little attempt to build up to a conclusion.  Fortunately,
the information given was worth it and competently written, even if I wasn't
left with any sense of a position (which should not, by any means, always be
required).

Think of it as a light read with some new nuggets about the "mystery base".
It seems a particularly apt gift for someone you know who is interested in
UFOs, since it seems singularly unlikely to offend.
RECENT ARRIVALS:
Hot time for UFO titles.  I cover lots of different areas, and we'll be seeing
quite a few different things as the year progresses.

<A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0028629043/bufosweirdworld">
The Complete Idiot's Guide to Being Psychic</A>

<A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/156924782X/bufosweirdworld">
The UFO Experience (paperback reprint)</A>
by J. Allen Hynek
This was one of the most important UFO titles ever.  Hynek, who created the
"Close Encounters of the Third Kind", etc., classification system, really
solidified ufology with this one.  A must read...

<A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/156924720X/bufosweirdworld">
Without Consent (paperback)</A>
by Philip Mantle and Carl Nagaitis
A look at alien abductions by one of the foremost British investigators.  This
perspective is especially important in determining the cultural influence (if
any) on these reports)

<A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1567182615/bufosweirdworld">
Out of Time and Place (paperback)</A>
by Terry O'Neill
Compiled from FATE

<A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0312968353/bufosweirdworld">
Enter the Valley</A>
by Christopher O'Brien
His first book,
<A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0312958838/bufosweirdworld">
The Mysterious Valley (paperback)</A>, was refreshingly straight-forward and
well-written.  I'm looking forward to reading this one as well.

<A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1893183025/bufosweirdworld">
The Aliens and the Scalpel (paperback)</A>
by Roger K. Leir
He surgically removed "implants" from "abductees" in conjunction with Derrel
Sims.

<A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0380799073/bufosweirdworld">We
Come As Friends (paperback)</A>
Subtitle: True Tales of Positive Alien Encounters
by Peter Michaels

<A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1879706504/bufosweirdworld">
The Source (hardback)</A>
by Art Bell and Brad Steiger
I'm assuming this will be available if you order it.  Quite possibly a
bestseller.

<A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0879519169/bufosweirdworld">
Open Skies, Closed Minds (hardback)</A>
by Nick Pope
Former British government employee, he claims to have been working on UFOs for
them.  A British bestseller, it's gotten quite a bit of press here as well.

<A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1577310764/bufosweirdworld">
Echoes of the Soul</A>
by Echo Bodine and Julia Ingram
Bodine is a nationally famous psychic.

THINGS TO COME
This is the first time I'm running this feature: feel free to let me know what
you think.  These books have not yet been released, but I anticipate them
being important.  You can pre-order now, and whenever they are released, get
them per Amazon's policies.

<A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0517705680/bufosweirdworld">
Stewards of the Earth (hardback)</A>
by John Mack
Pulitzer-prize winning Harvard psychiatrist, Mack strongly supported alien
abductions in his previous book.  This one is likely to be a bestseller as
well.

____________________________
*Prices are set by Amazon.com. Clicking on the link will take you to their
current listing and show the current price.
____________________________

____________________________ <BR>

*Prices are set by Amazon.com. Clicking on the link will take you to their curre
nt listing and show the current price. <BR>
____________________________ <BR>

This is Bufo saying, "If =everything= seemed normal, that =would= be weird!"
____________________________ <BR>
You can stop receiving this from me just by asking (note: it is commonly redistr
ibuted, and I can't control you getting it from those sources) by e-mail at Bufo
Calvin@aol.com.  You can also subscribe or unsubscribe to Bufo's WEIRD WORLD Med
ia Alert the same way. Also, please let me know if there is something in the med
ia you think I should cover. Deadline is Tuesday, the week before. <BR>
_____________________________ <BR>







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 30

                     Latest Flying Saucer Review Out Now

From: Ed Stewart <ufoindex@jps.net>
Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 08:18:35 -0800
Fwd Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 19:01:21 -0500
Subject: Latest Flying Saucer Review Out Now


From: Paul Whitehead <western-pr@western-pr.demon.co.uk>
Organization: Paul Whitehead
Newsgroups: alt.ufo.reports

Flying Saucer Review (FSR), published continuously since being
founded in 1955 (and read by Prince Philip since, and by Prince
Charles for 20 years) is available by on-line purchase (by
credit/debit card).

With its wealth of back copies - many of which are still
available - FSR forms what is probably the most comprehensive
library of ufo material in the world.

And we have copies of The Humanoids, the first study - by some
well known and serious writers - of the alien phenomonon. This
book was published in 1969 and is still a unique work, and is
available from the the FSR web site).  We also sell the Flying
Saucer Review tie!

The writers in this 256-page paperback include Jacques Vallee,
Aime Michel, the Lorenzens, Dr W Buhler, Gordon Creighton and
others.  Among the 'old' ufo and close encounter reports are
landing trace and crop circle reports.


http://www.corpex.com/users/archmage/fsr/fsrhome.htm

NOTE 1: the latest issue of FSR is out now. Contents include:
Angels in space; a Valentich-type case in Puerto Rico; contact
with ufos near Bermuda?; a look at the 'holographic universe';
more on the famous Tehran ufo of 1976; nano-technology/alien
technology; and more...

NOTE 2 For those of you using dollars and other currencies,
just complete the form on the FSR web site: our Bank will
convert your currency to pounds sterling at the current rate of
exchange.

There are no hidden charges - it's just like buying with a
credit card in your own country!  If you have any queries, just
email the address on the FSR web site.  We have been operating
the on-line purchase scheme since July 1998 and it has been a
great success.

Go now to:   http://www.corpex.com/users/archmage/fsr/fsrhome.htm

Paul Whitehead
FSR


-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ed Stewart ufoindex@jps.net|So Man, who here seems principal alone,
There Is Something         |Perhaps acts second to some sphere unknown.
   Going On!       ,>'?'<, |Touches some wheel, or verges to some goal,
Salvador Freixedo  ( O O ) |'Tis but a part we see, and not a whole.
----------------ooOO-(_)-OOoo------- Alexander Pope, Essay on Man -----








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 30

               Some Science Reporting Misleading - UPI Science

From: Ed Stewart <ufoindex@jps.net>
Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 11:59:03 -0800
Fwd Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 19:14:25 -0500
Subject: Some Science Reporting Misleading - UPI Science


UPI Science News

WASHINGTON, Jan. 30 (UPI) -- A media watchdog group has issued
its "dubious data awards" for 1998, listing as its top example
research published in November that strongly suggested
scientists had proven beyond doubt that Thomas Jefferson sired
offspring by one of his slaves, Sally Hemings.

That's simply not so, said David Murray, director of research
for the Statistical Assessment Service (STATS). The research,
published in Nature, strongly suggested that Jefferson could
have fooled around with the slave, as rumored for 200 years, but
it was anything but definitive.

Murray said the story's headline declared that "Jefferson
fathered slave's last child," while the article was full of
caveats. It pointed out that DNA evidence wags a finger at
Jefferson but also makes clear that the allegations wouldn't
stand up in court.

Nevertheless, most media outlets ignored the caveats in the
scientific article and ran the Nature headline as fact, said
Murray. For example, The Des Moines Register bannered:
"Adulterer on Mt. Rushmore."

National Public Radio announced that "proof is finally in. The
president not only did have an illicit sexual affair, he
fathered at least one child with his lover. DNA testing has
ended that debate."

And the Norfolk Virginian-Pilot bannered, "DNA Link: Paternity
Proved."

Such dubious reporting is further eroding the public's plunging
confidence in the media, said Glenn Sparks, a Purdue University
researcher who studies the press and its impact.

"It's much easier to remember headlines than the qualifiers in
stories," added Thomas Gilovich, a Cornell University
psychologist and expert on why people have a tendency to believe
in almost anything. "People are too easily misled."

He is the author of the book, "Why We Know What Isn't So."

Murray said the result of such "recklessness" - epitomized by
coverage of President Clinton's affair with Monica Lewinsky - is
that millions don't know what to believe, so they're simply
tuning out, which has led to a crescendo of cynicism and apathy
starkly evident in the low ratings for the impeachment hearings.

A recent survey of 3,000 Americans for the American Society of
Newspaper Editors found that 80 percent of respondents feel some
stories get lots of play simply because they are exciting.

STATS, a non-partisan, non-profit group, cited a study
suggesting that Americans are the most unfaithful spouses in the
entire world, at 50 percent, far ahead of the stereotypically
adventurous French at only 36 percent. It also concluded "the
French do it most often, the Americans for the longest, while
the Thais prefer to wait for their honeymoon."

Bob Lichter, president of the Center for Media and Public
Affairs, STATS's parent group, told UPI that few news outlets
pointed out that the research was questionable since it done by
the condom manufacturer Durex, and basic scientific methods were
ignored.

Only 14 countries were surveyed, the impressive sample size of
10,000 was self-selected, representing only those with the time
or inclination to fill out and return a questionnaire, and it
focused only on "sexually active" respondents, which Durex
defined as people 16 to 45.

"It shouldn't take a Starr report to remind journalists that sex
doesn't stop at age 45, though the cost may increase," STATS
said in its report.

Some other dubious data awards went to:

-- Claims that a Martian meteorite contained evidence of
primitive biological activity, which was reported in Science,
another top-ranked research journal. The conclusion was given
further credibility when NASA held a news conference to discuss
it. No wonder the Dayton Daily News blared: "Mars Mania: Clinton
Plans Summit." The Rocky Mountain News declared: "Earth Abuzz at
Mars News: 'Prove Us Wrong,' NASA Researchers Challenge."

"Well, OK," Murray said. He said that Science now concedes "most
researchers agree that the case for Martian life is shakier than
ever."

-- The Republican National Committee's charge that Vice
President Al Gore had donated only .0017 percent of his income
to charity. The true figure was 17 percent. STATS also noted
that Gore also needs to bone up on his math. He asserted that
2.7 trillion e-mail messages were sent last year. But the
Commerce Department says 100 million people accessed the
Internet in 1998, which if Gore's statement was right would
amount to an average of 27,000 e-mails received by every man,
woman and child. Not possible, Murray said.

-- A Science News article on fat and body asserting that "women
who had gained 22 pounds or more since age 18 ran an increased
risk of dying." Not so, STATS said. "Their risk of dying is
still 100 percent.

What was required to make the statement comparatively useful
would be time-related information, like the risk of dying by age
50."

-- Many media outlets ran stories or ads on a "miracle" drug
called Vitamin O that supposedly can treat everything from mild
fatigue to life-threatening disease. Fact is, Vitamin O is
"ordinary saltwater."

Gilovich said scientific evidence is often "fiendish and
presents evidence that is messy and complicated and easy to
misread."

Lichter said the public is "caught between the hype and the
scare stories."

Political scientist Larry Sabato of the University of Virginia
said careless reporting has him worried.

"I've got 600 people in my politics class, and they think it's
outrageous and pointless to read a daily newspaper," he told
UPI. "This is a very cynical generation and they don't believe
much of what newspapers print."

Lichter said people "need to take everything in the media with a
grain of salt, but science reporting requires a shaker of salt."

Not only do reckless reports feed cynicism, but they're
dangerous as well, he added.

"You get a study that says something causes cancer, then another
saying it doesn't. If people see screaming headlines, they stop
worrying about what they do eat because they think everything
causes cancer. The twin dangers are, people believe what they
shouldn't, or they won't believe anything because they don't
know what to believe," Lichter said.

STATS was created in 1994 by Lichter to keep track of erroneous
and overblown media claims at the behest of foundations and
lobbyists on both sides of the political spectrum. It does
projects for conservative and liberal groups alike.

"Our idea is to make the media better, not to beat up on it," he
said. "But it's powerful, and has a powerful effect on the
public. If journalists don't work harder to weed out the good
science from the spurious, and take time to understand it, the
industry is in trouble. But so are the American people."

(Written by Mushie Bolgla)






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 30

                    Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality

From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@connectmmic.net>
Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 17:17:35 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 19:25:03 -0500
Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality


>From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: 1999 UFO Alien Abduction Conference Announced
>Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 10:43:26 -0500

>>From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@connectmmic.net>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>Subject: Re: 1999 UFO Alien Abduction Conference Announced
>>Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 23:28:17 -0500

Greg,

<snip>

>>But isn't that the real problem
>>with ufology in general and abductions in particular: turning
>>one's back on analysis and advocate "opinions" instead?

>Where abductions are concerned, the skeptics are even more
>guilty of that than believers.

That does not solve the problem of "failure to analyze" and
invoking believer-skeptics you are putting mustard on whip
cream.

Not trying to be offending, but you are like a bank robber
pointing at Al Capone to excuse his crimes.  Instead of
polarizing the debate over a belief-system, why not address
facts and knowledge?

Abduction is in a phase of D_j_-vu: with its "us and they/we and
them", it is becoming some kind of movement and all its true
implications are being lost in the shuffle.  Experiencers claim
ignorance and despair, and no mainstream abductologist seems to
be able to alleviate this burden.

>But typically abduction skeptics don't even mention the full
>range of possible abduction evidence

As skeptic avoiding evidence is a jerk and should be ignored.

> -- for instance, the claim
>made by some abduction investigators that abductees corroborate
>even tiny unpublished details in each others' reports. Note
>again: I'm not insisting that this claim is correct

Well, I can't take that.

I get worried when Klass and skeptics get used in an argument.
Either abductees corroborate even tiny unpublished details in
each other's reports or they don't.

Claims are as solid and as valuable as a skeptic's argument:
free like air but stinking like a fart.  Claims create urban
legends that can only perpetuate the despair of the victims of
abductions.  I know that, in this era of rubberized
relationships, "experiencer" is more palatable than "victim",
but, as "collateral damages" cannot make war less messy and less
inhumane, "experiencer" won't make the problem less problematic.

"Alleged victims" of abduction _do not_ differ from victims of
crimes: their personal feeling of security has been shattered
and they show adaptive behavior to this event.  Among other
reactions: aggressiveness, depression, gesunting.

In such a perspective, "alleged victim" is an oxymoron: a
shattered feeling of security is related to an "event", a real
freaking event.  256-shades-of-grey entities participating in
the event should not distract anyone from this.

Let's try my favorite find and replace tool and apply it to
cases of abduction: replace greys with "the bastards" and UFO or
whatever with "car" or "van" and show the case to any
investigator.  My 2 cents that you'll be answered:  "Don't
worry, we'll get those bastards in the red Chevy."

I am sure that, with all your knowledge on abductions, you can
come with better "analysis".  And you should.

With respect and understanding that this is a tough job,

Serge Salvaille





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 30

                 Re: Professional Status of Richard Hoagland

From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 17:29:23 -0600 (CST)
Fwd Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 19:28:58 -0500
Subject: Re: Professional Status of Richard Hoagland


>Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 10:25:32 -0700
>From: Dan Syes <dsyes@micron.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: Professional Status of Richard Hoagland


>Dennis,

>I'd love to see the photos. If they are to big for this forum,
>please mail them direct to me.

>Thanks!

>Eating my heart out....(your an evil man!) :-)

>Dan


Dan,

Gimme a minute! Actually, give me much more than a minute. These
negs and prints date from sometime in the '80s. When I run
across them again I'll send you jpeg copies of same. I doubt the
List as a whole is even remotely interested.

Dennis





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 30

                              Posting Practices

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 19:51:52 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 19:51:52 -0500
Subject: Posting Practices





Greetings,

Posting practices are becoming sloppy again, guys.

Please read and adhere to the following:



                            Posting Instructions


       To help current and future readers of UFO UpDates' posts and
       the UFO UpDates Instant Archive software at:

                   http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates

       please observe the following rules when posting to the List.


 1.    Line-length

       Please make your lines no more than 70 characters long

------------------------This line is 70 characters---------------------

       Longer lines are wrapped by various pieces of software along the Net
and leave awkward
       and eye-jarring line lengths.


 2.    Attribution

       When responding to a message from the List, _always_ include the
       four line 'header' from the body of that message at the _start_
       of _your_ message - eg.:

                >Date: 01 Jan 97 00:00:01 EST
                >From: Genghis@mukluk.com <Bob Bobberts>
                >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
                >Subject: UFO UpDate: Grays are Grey Area

       Again - it's at the beginning of the 'body' of the message you
       are responding to.

 3.    Quoting

       _Always_ quote from the message to which you are responding.

        Quotes should come _before_ you key your response.

       Start each quoted line with a 'greater-than' sign (>) as the
       first character. It should look like this:

       >Start each quoted line with a 'greater-than' sign (>) as the
       >first character. It should look like this:

       Keep quoted material from previous messages to a minimum:  Just
       quote enough text to let people know what you are referring to.

       Messages that do not utilize the required quoting protocol
       or contain excessive quoting will not be posted to UpDates.

       The Archive software will automatically italicize these lines.
       Visit the Archive page and take a look.

       Most modern E-Mail software will allow the user to click a
       'Reply' button and automatically open a new window, with the
       message being responded to inserted with universal quote-mark
       (>) at the beginning of each line.

       When 'Reply' is clicked, some E-Mail software will insert a line
       which states:

              On 01 Jan 97 at 00:00:01 EST, UFO UpDates wrote:

       If your program does this, please remove it - UFO UpDates did
       not _write_ the message - it merely posted it to the List.


 5.    Don't send 'personal' responses to the list that should be sent
       directly to the original author.  Send a message to the list
       only if it contains new information that you want _everyone_
       to see.

       Messages that contain what the List Administrator considers to
       be personal attacks or 'flames' will not be posted to the List.
       Those messages will be forwarded to the person they refer to
       for their information.


 6.    URLs (Web Site addresses)  _must_ include 'http://' and be on
       one line. The Archive software will make the URL a 'click-able'
       link to that address in your archived message.

 7.    To un-subscribe, send a _new_ message with 'Un-subscribe' as
       the 'Subject: '


 8.    And _please_ do _not_ use the 'formatted text' features of
       your e-mail program. No colours, no fancy fonts, no italics
       or bolding, no fancy quoting designs or html styling. Plain
       Ascci is what UpDates uses. Messages that are not plain text
       will not be posted.

                     ------------------------------------





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 30

                         HOT GOSSIP UK - News Flash

From: Georgina Bruni <georgina@easynet.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 13:00:09 +0000
Fwd Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 20:15:04 -0500
Subject: HOT GOSSIP UK - News Flash

HOT GOSSIP UK - News Flash

On Thursday 28 January the Oxford Union held a debate on the
motion "This house believes we are not alone".

The Ministry of Defence official Nick Pope, who spent three
years researching and investigating UFOs for the government,
spoke for the motion, as did local UFO researcher Michael Soper.

Science writer Ian Ridpath, together with ufologist Peter
Brookesmith, opposed the motion.

After a lively and interesting debate which saw contributions
from many of the students, the motion was carried by 290 votes
to 191.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Georgina Bruni
E-mail: georgina@easynet.co.uk
E-mail: 104707.336@compuserve.com
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
HOT GOSSIP UK
www.hotgossip.co.uk
Celebrating three years on the internet
Britain's first on-line Gossip Magazine
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
In trubute to Scotland's greatest poet
Robert Burns 1759 - 1796
Burns Day  January 25th

ADDRESS TO A HAGGIS
Fair fa' your honest, sonsie face,
Great chieftain o' the puddin-race!
Aboon them a' ye tak your place,
Painch, tripe, or thairm:
Weel are ye wordy of a grace
As lang's my arm....
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 30

                    Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality

From: Peter Brookesmith Mendoza <DarkSecretPB@compuserve.com>
Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 19:19:32 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 20:23:29 -0500
Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality


With the compliments of the Duke of Mendoza:


>Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 14:18:31 -0800 (PST)
>From: Rebecca Keith <xiannekei@yahoo.com>
>Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>

Rebecca (hi sunbeam!) quoted Greg--

>>From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>Subject: Re: 1999 UFO Alien Abduction Conference Announced
>>Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 10:43:26 -0500

>>But typically abduction skeptics don't even mention the full
>>range of possible abduction evidence -- for instance, the claim
>>made by some abduction investigators that abductees corroborate
>>even tiny unpublished details in each others' reports.

and asked

>I'm just guessing here, but perhaps Brookesmith mentions
>something similar in his abduction book? Doesn't he interview
>Betty Hill who says something about abductees getting together
>at group meeting and comparing notes?

This is certainly in the Fortean Times version of my evening
with Betty. The interview is available on the FT website. I
can't remember if it's in the book.

In a post wirtten so long ago I cannot quote it, Greg implicitly
took me to task for not following up or mentioning some of these
"tiny unpublished details" in my book ("Alien Abductions",
Barnes & Noble (USA), Blandford (UK), ISBN 0-7607-0764-2). The
details, specifically, that he had mentioned concerned David
Jacobs's claim that abductees would describe "alien equipment"
in extreme detail, that the accounts were corroborated by
individuals unknown to each other, and that the descriptions
were so precise and consistent that Jacobs could tell what the
kit would be used for (according to the abductees) shortly after
the third or fourth account was launched. (If you follow me.)

Rather than turn that into a public and easily misconstrued
spat--and to avoid the histrionics we can both indulge in a
public forum--I explained to Greg on the phone that he'd come up
with this about three weeks before the book script was due for
delivery, and there wasn't time to write it up, let alone make
the proper enquiries to give a decent account of the claim.
Which he understood, being a scarred old hack like yrs trly and
a gent besides.

I might as well say there was an awful lot of stuff I _had_
researched that didn't get in the book either, simply for lack
of space, let alone time. A whole chapter, not to say another
book, could have been written on memory, and it would have
included Rebecca's factitious memory "implanted" (ho ho) by a
certain well-known abduction researcher, and its details. (Ed
Bullard is working on a major treatment of memory in this
connection, and whichever way his opinion falls his paper will
be a gem and his research comprehensive, so I don't feel too
much was lost!)

Among the things I would want to know or see before feeling able
to evaluate these claims fairly and justly would be: (a) a great
deal about what happens in Jacobs' support groups, _if_ he runs
any, (b) full transcripts of all the subjects' hypnotic sessions
and pre-hypnotic discussions with the investigator (c) even more
than I already know about terrestrial medical procedures (d) the
subjects' entire medical history and (e) their knowledge or
interest in (c).

One recalls Sandy Larsen's transmutation of a medical procedure
(sinus cleansing, I vaguely recall, corrections welcome) and its
incorporation into her abduction story. Just take that as a
caveat.

The other "tiny unpublished detail" of which I know anything,
and have seen an example or two, is the "alien script" recorded
by Budd Hopkins. Greg, John Powell, John Velez and others
including yrs trly discussed ways of researching their
authenticity at length about two years ago on this list, but
that may have been before it was archived on the Web. I gather
Prof Stuart Appelle is doing something about these, but whether
he's taken up any of the ideas we kicked around I don't know.
But the reasonable demand was made of me that I didn't reproduce
any of this "alien writing", as that could mess up later data,
and I was happy to go along with that.

Anyway--all this is a long-winded way of saying that these
"details" haven't been discussed by skeptics, and by this one in
particular, for practical reasons rather than lack of scruple or
inability to cope with the shocking implications, de da. As John
Rimmer points out in another post, most people even inside
abductology don't know what these "details" are except in the
most general terms.

best wishes
Peritonitis D. Mallificarum
Banging Away






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 30

                          Re: Abduction Hypotheses

From: John W. Ratcliff <jratcliff@worldnet.att.net>
Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 18:14:45 -0600
Fwd Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 20:28:59 -0500
Subject: Re: Abduction Hypotheses


Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 21:28:02 +0000
To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
From: Sean Jones <seanj@tedric.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Abduction Hypotheses

Sean wrote:

>>John, no insult but you have missed two alternatives that have
>>solicited investigation.

>>10) Sleep disorder's/paralysis.

>>11) Astral travel/ OOBE's.

>>Both offer _credible_ possibilities.


Oh, no insult at all. My post was just a collection of random
thoughts flitting through my head, if people have more ideas are
perspectives I would love to hear about them. It's always
interesting to me the e-mail messages I get from the lurker
world when I make a public posting. I know too many people to
have been affected by this phenomenon, and too many people who
have experienced UFOs, and too many people who have remarkable
experiences, to dismiss it so easily; even if I have no personal
experience to measure it by. I feel really uncomfortable when
folks like Persinger 'explain' abduction experiences by inducing
altered states of consciousness in test subjects. When I see
this I just wonder, why is he going to so much effort? I could
drop some folks acid a lot easier than that. That humans have
altered state experiences is no news to the entire psychoactive
subculture. If you are going to be a real scientist about the
matter at least do some shrooms, drop some acid, meditate for a
while, or practice your OBE. I've done all of these things with
hardly any measurable effect. I chalk this up to different
brain wiring.

I've never heard that Persinger has placed an alien abductee
under his contraption and had them confirm, "Yep, that's what it
was. Whooh, what a relief."

Another one, #12, is a real bizarre one. A friend of mine, PJ,
who has had all manner of strange experiences helped me
formulate this one. This starts with a dualistic notion that
consciousness is not a product of the human brain, but rather
the human brain acts as a receiving antenna for consciousness.
Change the wiring, and you change the station. This most bizarre
theory is that the abduction experience involves consciousness
attuning itself to _other realities_, which can be as real as a
punch in the nose one second and as fuzzy as a bunny the next.
This theory pretty much rejects the whole idea of 'real' and
'not real', and opens up an Alice In Wonderland hall of mirrors
that defies explanation in terms of consensus reality. And what
the heck does it matter anyway?

A long time ago I was completely uninterested in these subjects.
I was in the camp of skeptics who not only considered it all
bunk, I had never considered it at all in the first place. Since
researching a whole range of phenomena I have realized that
Universe is far from figured out. I find Universe to be a
fascinating place that I want to learn and experience as much of
as I can during my brief stay here.

I find having an open mind is a lot more conducive to learning
new things. I subscribe to a multi-model approach to reality
assimilation. I can comfortably work with many different models
of reality, even if they are completely contradictory, trying
them on like different sets of clothing; whichever is the most
appropriate for the occasion.

For example, one of my favorite models for reality was written
by a ghost named Seth in the late 70's. I couldn't prove a word
the old ghost ever said, but find his models convenient on many
occasions.

You got some more models, theories, ideas, I'd love to hear
them. Meanwhile, shouldn't an 'explanation' at least pass muster
with the experiencer before we leave the table satisfied we have
an answer?

John W. Ratcliff






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 30

                         Re: Russian Plasma Stealth?

From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 20:30:05 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 20:36:42 -0500
Subject: Re: Russian Plasma Stealth?


>From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@get2net.dk>
>Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 23:17:57 +0100 (MET)
>Subject: Russian Plasma Stealth?
>To: updates@globalserve.net

>Source:

>http://www.ufomind.com/military/aircraft/skunkworks/mailing/msg02028.shtml

>Stig

>***

>Skunk Works Mailing List

>Russian plasma stealth?
>
>Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 15:57:55 +0100 (MET)
>From: pharabod@in2p3.fr
>Subject: Russian plasma stealth?

>In attachment is an alleged Russian ITAR-TASS agency release
>about a new way of obtaining stealthiness, via the use of
>"plasma". They say that it's or will be far better than the US
>Lockheed Skunk Works or Northrop way.

>J. Pharabod

<snip>

Stig:

I have been talking about plasmas around vehicles producing low
radar profiles. for 30 years. Looks like the Russians may be
doing it which makes me wonder if we haven't.

Stan






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 30

                         Re: Apocalypse Pretty Soon

From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net>
Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 16:29:36 -0800
Fwd Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 20:43:14 -0500
Subject: Re: Apocalypse Pretty Soon


>Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 12:40:31 -0800
>From: Alex Heard <aheard@wired.com>
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Apocalypse Pretty Soon

>Greetings:

>This is a general message to participants in this forum. My name
>is Alex Heard; I�m an editor at Wired magazine and the author of
>Apocalypse Pretty Soon, a new book about American subcultures at
>the turn of the millennium. Two chapters in the book are
>UFO-related, and I think you'll find them interesting and
>entertaining. One is about the Unarius Academy of Science, the
>famed UFO-oriented religion in Southern California. Another
>concerns Dr. Steven Greer, a contactee who takes groups of
>people out at night to try and "initiate" contact with
>extraterrestrials.

<snip>

Dear Alex Heard:

Any treatment of the UFO topic which touches upon Dr. Steven
Greer and/or the Unarius Society would require a great sense of
humor indeed.

I would have titled the book " Apocalypse any time now, maybe in
two or three weeks but definitely before the second coming of
Christ .."  but that's a publishing issue.

I am addicted to long book titles.

There may be some people who take Unarius or Greer seriously,
but what is to be gained from that?

The Art Bell forum, quite literally many millions in many
countries, is more than an adequate forum for your book.

This "forum" doesn't even accept Mastercard or Visa.

If you want to study millenium nut cases, there are literally
hundreds of other places to go.

Perhaps you got here by accident.


-  Larry Hatch

=    =   =    =






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 30

                    Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 19:31:49 EST
Fwd Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 20:45:42 -0500
Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality


>From: Leanne Martin <leanne_martin@hotmail.com>
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality
>Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 14:37:26 PST

>>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
>>Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 08:55:29 EST
>>To: updates@globalserve.net
>>Subject: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality

>>The experience leaves one exceedingly disturbed, is entirely too
>>realistic and remains in the memory longer than the worst of
>>recurring dreams. IF it continues off and on over a lifetime,
>>the results of such a personal encounter are fascinatingly
>>personal. It is like getting raped, altho being a guy, I can
>>never truly relate to that.
>
><snip>
>
>>Dr. Gesundt.
>>A very old fool for my age.
>
>G'day Jim (& List),
>
>A nice read Jim (btw - sorry for miss spelling your name the
>other day - I realised it as soon as I hit 'Send').
>
>In all seriousness . . .
>
>Do you know whether you needed a lot of hospital visits as an
>infant? What have your parents told you of your first two years
>of life? Were you a premature baby who needed life support?
>
There were no hospital visits at all... not until age 7 and that was
years AFTER these dream/memories/events.

>It strikes me as a possible cause of your dream as a toddler. I
>can understand if you see this as too intrusive.

Not at all.  There was never even an ambulance even near our home,
yet I was taken by one.... and had never seen one.  TV, while invented
:) was not in our home until I was 10 years old.  We didn't even have
a car until I was 10.

>Does anyone know of any correlation between being a prem-baby
>and 'abduction' experiences?


As far as being a premature infant... interestingly I was the
opposite. I arrive VERY late in the pregnancy and was delivered
by C-section. As in life in general, I gave my poor mom a rough
time. She was in labor for seven days...  that must've hurt a
lot...

No... no hospitals, no doc offices (except a lady perdiatrition
and she was TALL).  No labs, no ambulances, no nothing.  Just a
happy childhood.... and no, no mistreatment of any kind.  Lotsa
love.  Lotsa nurturing.

So, let's add it all up.

1) I was late

2) Never saw a hospital or lab until after these perceived
events

3) Ditto with an ambulance (yet I went to mom that very morning
and asked her why the ambulance took me away to the hopsital up
there last night...

4) No child abuse

5) rarely left the house and the pediatrition came to us.

6) Not only was I not premature they had to lift me out

7) My part of the delivery was a breeze... no squeezing thru a
narrow opening, no birth trauma.

This was 1943.

Jim






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 30

                         Re: 'Sorry, We'll Be Late'

From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@YorkU.CA>
Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 20:08:50 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time)
Fwd Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 20:48:12 -0500
Subject: Re: 'Sorry, We'll Be Late'


>From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
>Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 23:01:23 EST
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: 'Sorry, We'll Be Late'

><snip>

>From: New Scientist, 23 January 1999

>Sorry, we'll be late

>Robert Matthews

>Gamma-ray bursts--incredibly powerful explosions that may be
>caused by collisions between collapsed stars--could solve one of
>the oldest riddles about extraterrestrial civilisations: why
>haven't they reached Earth already?

><snip>

Hi everyone,

This New Scientist article which suggests that the rate of large
gamma-ray bursts which are sufficient to wipe out all life in
our galaxy is about once every few hundred million years has
many big implications.

If it takes billions of years for intelligent life to evolve (as
some believe), not only wouldn't there be any extraterrestrial
civilizations but we could not even explain the existence of
ours on Earth. Of course we do exist and UFO sightings continue
to be made so we must think again about our origins and what
UFOs really are. The New Scientist article, if true, may force
us to conclude that that humans and all life on Earth were
created by God in recent times and that all UFOs have
terrestrial explanations (Nazi inventions, demonic
manifestations, etc.).

If such large gamma-ray bursts are not as frequent or never
occur at all in some galaxies, then we should not forget about
other threats to emerging civilizations such as asteroids.  It
is estimated that an asteroid the size of a football field (U.S.
or Canadian?) comes closer to Earth than the Moon about once
every month and from recently declassified military satellite
data we now know that the Earth is hit about 25 times a year by
a small asteroid which produce nuclear size detonations (in
fact, Chicago and neighbouring towns in four states were
destroyed by such an impact just over a century ago).  An
asteroid impact large enough to kill all life on Earth is likely
to occur much, much sooner than the next large gamma-ray burst.
Now that we have strong evidence for planets orbiting around
other stars, I think we can safely assume that all
extraterrestrial life is also at risk.

On Wednesday we had a special seminar at York University titled
The Genesis Flood which presented geological evidence for many
other large catastrophies, including a global flood which
destroyed nearly all life on Earth just 5000 years ago.

Nick Balaskas








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 30

                    Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality

From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net>
Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 18:13:13 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 20:50:32 -0500
Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality


>From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
>Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 12:53:44 EST
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Re: 1999 UFO Alien Abduction Conference Announced

>>Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 10:13:53 -0800 (PST)
>>From: Rebecca Keith <xiannekei@yahoo.com>
>>Subject: Re: 1999 UFO Alien Abduction Conference Announced
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>

>>>This is why some states now prohibit witnesses who have been
>>>hypnotized (questioned under hypnosis about the crime) from
>>>testifying. It is simply too easy to implant information even by
>>>the most careful of questioners.

A small clarification.

Some states forbid testimony derived from hypnosis, and all of
them should, because without independent corroboration there's
no way to determine whether a hypnotically recalled memory is
accurate.

This, however, doesn't stop police departments, on occasion,
from using hypnosis to develop evidence. And if the evidence can
be independently corroborated, it can then be used in court.

For instance: If I'm a possible witness to a murder, and under
hypnosis I say that I saw Prince Charles do it, my testimony
wouldn't be allowed in court. But the police can act on what I
claim to remember. They can look into the Prince's whereabouts,
and discover that he was not in Buckingham Palace the night of
the crime, as he claimed, but right where the crime was
committed. They can discover that he bought exactly the kind of
gun used in the crime. Finally they can find a witness who saw
the Prince pull the trigger, and all this new evidence -- which
they might not have gone after, if they hadn't hypnotized me --
should be more that enough to convict the Prince in court.

There's at least one paper in the psychology literature,
describing a case much like this.

Abduction researchers, as I've observed before, don't stress the
problems with hypnosis enough. But on the other hand, the best
of them never believe a story just because one person told it
under hypnosis. I can't stress this enough. The case for
abductions is built from many hypnotic and non-hypnotic accounts
that appear to confirm each other, even (allegedly) in tiny,
unpublished details. So I'm a little tired, to be honest, of
hearing the problems with hypnosis brought up over and over by
critics of abduction research.

The critics have to go a little deeper (as I hope Kevin does in
his book). They have to beyond saying that hypnosis can
encourage people to make up stories, and show why abductees are
making up the particular stories they do. Why, for instance, do
many people who say they've seen abductees working with the
aliens all say that the abductees are wearing blue uniforms when
they do it? Has that detail circulated widely in the literature?
(Not until fairly recently, after many of the original stories
were told.) Has it been talked about in abductee support groups?
Are there unreported groups of abductees describing green
uniforms, or no uniforms at all? These are the kind of questions
that, in my opinion, the critics should be looking at.

Stuart Appelle, in his lengthy JUFOS paper on the abduction
evidence, suggests that non-abductees should be asked to imagine
details like this, to determine whether there's some mental
template or cultural predisposition that leads people toward
these repeated abduction details. If you ask non-abductees what
color the uniforms would be, and most of them say that they're
blue, then it's much less impressive when abductees report that.

As Stuart and others have also pointed out, there hasn't been
enough research on hypnosis. For instance, the research that
claims to show hypnosis doesn't help in accurately recalling
forgotten details was all or almost all done in laboratory
settings. There hasn't, to my knowledge, been any research on
hypnotic recall of real-life traumatic memories. I know, of
course, that the whole question of recovered memory is
considered very dicey these days, but there's impressive
evidence from Lenore Terr, among other psychologists, that some
recovered memories are genuine. That is, the recovered memories
can be corroborated. Corroboration, as always, is the key.

One last thought:

>>This is why some states now prohibit witnesses who have been
>>>hypnotized (questioned under hypnosis about the crime) from
>>>testifying. It is simply too easy to implant information even by
>>>the most careful of questioners.

Elizabeth Loftus and others have proved that memories can be
implanted by ordinary questioning, no hypnosis required. Should
we now prohibit testimony from any witness who was ever
interrogated by police?

We need to use a little common sense when we talk about memory.
Recovered memories are tricky, no doubt about it. But some of
the writing from critics of recovered memory makes you wonder
how any of us could ever trust our minds at all. That was one
feeling I had after reading Elizabeth Loftus's book (she being
the psychologist most cited in attacks on recovered memories). I
wondered what she does when, like all of us at some time or
other, she mislays her car keys. The rest of us aren't surprised
when, after a few minutes of hapless searching, the light bulb
suddenly goes off in our heads. "Oh, right! I put them on the
coffee table when I went into the bedroom to change my pants!"

So we look on the coffee table, and find the keys. Poor Loftus,
though -- if she takes what she writes in her book a little too
seriously, she'd reject a sudden memory like that. After all,
she's shown in her research how false they can be. She's
probably still looking for her car keys....

Greg Sandow





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 30

                  Re: MJ-12 - An Estimate of the Situation

From: Ed Fouche <fouche@connecti.com>
Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 19:09:52 -0600
Fwd Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 21:01:40 -0500
Subject: Re: MJ-12 - An Estimate of the Situation


>Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 15:26:52 -0800
>From: Ed Stewart <ufoindex@jps.net>
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: MJ-12 - An Estimate of the Situation

>Addresses the issue of provenance and genesis as well as the
>issue of linkage of date elements. Items missing from the
>original MJ-12 papers since their appearance on the UFO scene
>and items currently missing from the Woods publicised research.
>Same "research" MO.

>The question to Stanton Friedman at the end of the reposted
>message remains unanswered to this day. I repeat the question to
>any of the proponents of the new MJ-12 papers. Is there anything
>in your promotion that provides multiple, independent,
>link-by-link, verified and direct chains of evidence that
>establishes the genesis/provenance of the MJ-12 documents?

>Ed Stewart

<snip>

I don�t want to weigh in as having any deep knowledge of the
MJ-12 saga.  I can only say I have great respect for Stanton
Freedman and his ongoing research.   I�m more inclined to agree
with many of his points though.

I worked a Black Development program in the late 70s.  It was a
Joint Task Force made up of Air Force, Navy, and DoD
Contractors.  The lowest Clearance of anyone involved in the
Program was Secret, including the supply and clerical people.

Tight Security Procedures and Protocol were implemented for the
Program. The Civilian (DoD) Contractors were given money, i.e.
contractual, that was far beyond the needs of the Program in my
opinion.  This was not uncommon during the spending spree from
the 70s and 80s on Black Programs.

We set up the Engineering Shops and Calibration Laboratories
with the best state of the art Test Equipment, and we had the
most fabulous desks, chairs, etc. Every Field Grade Officer had
a new pickup truck or Jeep.  They bought them with cash at a
civilian dealership.  The contractors paid for everything,
including there own administrative and clerical staff to do much
of our required paper-work. This practice is not uncommon but
against military regulations and directives.

Because of this affluence, mistakes were made.  In spite of the
MANY security briefings and controls, I can remember at least
once a week there was a MAJOR Breach of Security.  Top Secret
documents being put in the wrong safe, because someone had stuck
the folder inside a Secret Folder by mistake.  Non Secret and
Non authorized items being kept in one of the safes designated
Secret, like hard cash and confidential contractor memos.
Briefings and other documents were often marked with no or the
wrong classification.

We had AFFTC, AFLC, ATC, TAC, and SAC, not to mention the NAVY,
visitors all the time.  The Program was a success Only because
they threw so much talent and money at it.

It�s one thing to say a military organization has very few
security breaches, but it�s entirely another thing when you have
multiple organizations and DoD contractors working side-by-side.
Mistakes happen all the time.  Sure, most of them are discovered
and corrected.  I can still remember when a male administrative
secretary made up a Controlled Frequency list for the operations
and posted it on the bulletin board in the hall. It was
discovered three hours later.  The list of Frequencies was Top
Secret.  One of the DoD Program Managers gave the changes the
administrative secretary and neglected to post it in the Top
Secret folder.  S--- Happens, even in the most secure areas.

Generals, Congressmen, and Presidential staff routinely walk
around with classified Documents and notes breaking Security
protocols and procedures.

I�ve even seen Secret information put into Electronic Counter
Measures test procedures in Preliminary Manuals by mistake.
Even though the ALC civilians, TAC, USAFE, and contractors
reviewed the drafts.

We won�t even talk about the dumpster FULL of F-15 ATE,
Avionics, and aircraft Technical orders at Kelly AFB where they
were mistakenly thrown out.  Oh, and there were some
Confidential Technical Supplements in the dumpster with them.

Don�t throw the baby out with the bath water.  The closest lie
and most believable is the one closest to the truth and Psy-Ops
knows this well.

Edgar A. Fouche, USAF Retired
Author: �Alien Rapture� http://fouchemedia.com







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 30

                         Re: Apocalypse Pretty Soon

From: Alex Heard <aheard@wired.com>
Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 18:08:43 -0800
Fwd Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 22:14:13 -0500
Subject: Re: Apocalypse Pretty Soon


>Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 16:29:36 -0800
>From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Apocalypse Pretty Soon

>Dear Alex Heard:

>Any treatment of the UFO topic which touches upon Dr. Steven
>Greer and/or the Unarius Society would require a great sense of
>humor indeed.

>I would have titled the book " Apocalypse any time now, maybe in
>two or three weeks but definitely before the second coming of
>Christ .."  but that's a publishing issue.

>I am addicted to long book titles.

>There may be some people who take Unarius or Greer seriously,
>but what is to be gained from that?

>The Art Bell forum, quite literally many millions in many
>countries, is more than an adequate forum for your book.

>This "forum" doesn't even accept Mastercard or Visa.

>If you want to study millenium nut cases, there are literally
>hundreds of other places to go.

>Perhaps you got here by accident.

Hmmm, I guess my wording wasn't clear enough. Greer gets
throughly trashed. I'm a former editor for the New York Times
magazine, not a Greer buff.

The Unarius chapter is a more sympathetic, but it's basically a
study of fairly dark and sad patterns behind the scenes in a
"zany" UFO cult.

Thanks.

Thanks,

Heard

Please check out my Web site: http://www.apocalypseprettysoon.com

Apocalypse Pretty Soon, the book, hits stores in February 1999.






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 31

                    Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality

From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net>
Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 20:23:52 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 09:22:57 -0500
Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality


>Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 14:18:31 -0800 (PST)
>From: Rebecca Keith <xiannekei@yahoo.com>
>Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>

>>From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>Subject: Re: 1999 UFO Alien Abduction Conference Announced
>>Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 10:43:26 -0500

>>>But isn't that the real problem
>>>with ufology in general and abductions in particular: turning
>>>one's back on analysis and advocate "opinions" instead?

>>Where abductions are concerned, the skeptics are even more
>>guilty of that than believers. Note: this is NOT a comment on
>>Kevin, who's thoughtful about everything he does.

>I consider myself a skeptic and that doesn't mean I'm a
>nonbeliever. By contrasting skeptics being more guilty than
>believers, you are suggesting I'm a nonbeliever.

Rebecca, I was hardly talking about you. I was talking about
published writers in both camps.

>>But typically abduction skeptics don't even mention the full
>>range of possible abduction evidence -- for instance, the claim
>>made by some abduction investigators that abductees corroborate
>>even tiny unpublished details in each others' reports. Note
>>again: I'm not insisting that this claim is correct, or that it
>>means abductions are real. More research needs to be done. I
>>_am_ saying that abduction skeptics rarely (if ever) mention it.
>>Documentation: Philip Klass, UFO Abductions: A Dangerous Game;
>>the NOVA episode on abductions; the 1996 volume of the journal
>>Psychological Issues, entirely devoted to abductions; Robert
>>Sheaffer's [hope I spelled his name right] new book on UFOs; a
>>recent book of collected UFO pieces (one on abuctions) from the
>>Skeptical Inquirer; many skeptical posts here, etc., etc., etc.

>>If anyone knows of an abduction skeptic who mentions this
>>pro-abduction argument, even scathingly, I'd love to know about
>>it.

>Should skeptic claim that this is a fact? Should he/she say "it
>is claimed..." or what?

I myself wouldn't claim this as a fact, so I'd hardly ask
skeptics to. I'd simply ask them to note that it's claimed, just
as you suggest. Then they ought to state what they'd think if
abduction researchers were able to prove that this was actually
so.

>I'm just guessing here, but perhaps Brookesmith mentions
>something similar in his abduction book? Doesn't he interview
>Betty Hill who says something about abductees getting together
>at group meeting and comparing notes?

Peter posted something here to that effect, using (I think) the
text of an article he published elsewhere. I think it might have
been an outtake from his book. At the time, I thought -- and
should have posted here -- that Betty Hill is hardly an expert
on the current abduction phenomenon, despite her historical
importance. Much of what she said, I thought, was more or less
off the top of her head. I'm not sure why Peter thought it was
worth publishing, unless he was just having fun saying, "See,
even a famous abudctee thinks abduction research has problems."
Quoting Betty Hill on current abduction stuff is a little like
quoting Little Richard on the current state of rock & roll.
He'll have a lively opinion, but nobody would take it seriously.

>I'm not saying that abductees don't corroborate tiny unpublished
>details and I'm not saying that they incorporate details from
>other accounts into their own stories, but it is a possibility
>in some cases, no?

Of course.

>I need to organize my thoughts a little more clearly on this,
>but the days of abductees claiming to have no prior knowledge of
>abductions stories are over, IMO. And if my opinion is correct,
>it would appear to me that it would be very difficult to
>establish tiny details from abductee accounts if one wanted to
>study that particular aspect.

It's virtually impossible to prove an abductee never heard the
tiny details somewhere. You can always decide that Budd Hopkins
or David Jacobs or John Carpenter might have told someone.

On the other hand, I've seen abductees come into the abduction
world knowing less than you'd think. More than once I've had an
abductee friend call in a panic, after having read in an
abduction book something he or she never dreamed someone else
knew about. In one case, the abductee had gone through hypnosis
with Budd, and hadn't believed a word she'd come out with. Then
she picked up The Threat, and -- not even caring yet about the
apocalyptic message -- just went into shock reading a couple of
random details that were exactly like what she said when
hypnotized. She'd been to a support group meeting or two, and at
least one party with abductees, and had every chance, you'd
think, to learn many details of abduction stories. But she
hadn't, partly because abductees, being in most respects normal
people, don't spend every waking hour talking obsessively about
their abduction memories.

Crucial focus for those evaluating abduction research -- the
very early days of abduction investigation, when hardly anyone
knew the familiar story, and it's harder to claim that abductees
were influenced by the media or other abductees.

Important area for current investigation (I'm working on this):
Dave Jacobs' claim that abductees always put certain seemingly
random -- and obscure -- details in the same order. Dave has all
his hypnotic sessions transcribed, and so his claim, if it's
correct, ought to be possible for him to document.

Greg Sandow






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 31

                    Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality

From: Bill Weber <koran@cchat.com>
Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 22:43:04 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 09:30:50 -0500
Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality


>Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 14:18:31 -0800 (PST)
>From: Rebecca Keith <xiannekei@yahoo.com>
>Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>

>>From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>Subject: Re: 1999 UFO Alien Abduction Conference Announced
>>Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 10:43:26 -0500

>Should skeptic claim that this is a fact? Should he/she say" it
>is claimed..." or what?

>I'm just guessing here, but perhaps Brookesmith mentions
>something similar in his abduction book? Doesn't he interview
>Betty Hill who says something about abductees getting together
>at group meeting and comparing notes?

>I'm not saying that abductees don't corroborate tiny
>unpublished details and I'm not saying that they incorporate
>details from other accounts into their own stories, but it is
>a possibility in some cases, no?

>I need to organize my thoughts a little more clearly on this,
>but the days of abductees claiming to have no prior knowledge
>of abductions stories are over, IMO. And if my opinion is
>correct, it would appear to me that it would be very difficult
>to establish tiny details from abductee accounts if one wanted
>to study that particular aspect.


Hi, Rebecca,

May I ask a few sincere questions here?

It would seem that comparison of "tiny, unpublished details"
would be a legitimate method for research.  Why not?  But the
above statement seem to set the bar for "significant details"
very high - maybe unattainably high.  Of course the abductee
respondents shouldn't know each other, nor should they contact
each other, but must they have lived all their lives in absolute
isolation to avoid some obscure, media influence?  Are all
similarities between stories for those respondents who have
lived normal lives then insignificant? What characteristic of
abductee or ground rule for a "significant detail" would get the
skeptical reader past the "Weaknesses" section of the research?
What would that kind of study look like?

Sincerely,

Bill Weber









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 31

                        Re: 'Apocalypse Pretty Soon'

From: Bob Soetebier <bikebob@mo.net>
Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 21:45:54 -0600 (CST)
Fwd Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 09:48:18 -0500
Subject: Re: 'Apocalypse Pretty Soon'


>From: Alex Heard <aheard@wired.com>
>Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 12:40:31 -0800
>Fwd Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 16:53:43 -0500
>Subject: 'Apocalypse Pretty Soon'

>This is a general message to participants in this forum. My name
>is Alex Heard; Im an editor at Wired magazine and the author of
>Apocalypse Pretty Soon, a new book about American subcultures at
>the turn of the millennium.

<snip>

Alex,

Just wanted to thank you for taking the time, and interest, to
write and post on UFO-related subjects.  My wife and I have
subscribed to 'Outside' magazine for a number of years now and
found your "Alien Brothers, Come On Down!" article (about Steven
Greer) -- in the Sept., 1994, issue of 'Outside' -- right on the
money.  Having since had the opportunity to hear Greer speak
("pronounce" would be the more appropriate term!) your article
was well-appreciated by us.

BTW...Just wanted to let you know I previously took the time to
bring your excellent article to the attention of others on the
UFO UpDates mailing list via couple of postings (dated: Thurs.,
Nov 6, 1997, and, Sat., June 7, 1997). If you're curious, you
can easily do a search for those (and others I have posted)
postings by searching on "bikebob" in the "UFO UpDates Mailing
List" on-line archives via this URL:

http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates/

Also enjoyed reading the excerpted material from your book (noted in
your quoted posting, below), in your 'She's Mad As Hell' article (in
the 'FIELD NOTES' column) in the Feb., 1999, issue of "Outside".

In the second and third paragraphs of that article you mention
one 'Robert Ghost Wolf'. From a previous public posting
(elsewhere), it would certainly  seem that there may be more
(or, less) to Robert Ghost Wolf than meets the eye.  I'll
forward that posting on to you.

See:

http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates/1997/aug/m25-006.shtml

In the meantime, keep up the good work!  :)


Take care,


Bob Soetebier

St. Louis County, Missouri


    Tailwinds to you...            See you ON the road!





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 31

                                  Anagrams

From: Sue Kovios <bradford@globalserve.net>
Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 22:53:18 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 09:53:35 -0500
Subject: Anagrams


From: MizarKey@aol.com
Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 00:11:57 EST
To: cydonia@majordomo.pobox.com


   _            -----_          An Anagram, as you know, is a word
  //           {|||} 0]_____    or phrase made by transposing or
  ||          {|||}   \-----]   rearranging the letters of another
   \\        {|||}    _\____    word or phrase.
    \\      {|||}    /  ----
     \\--------     /           The following list of anagrams
     |   DogByte   |            are exceptionally clever.   Enjoy!
     \| ----------- \
       |           ||
       ||           ||
       ==           ==

Dormitory                        Dirty Room

Evangelist                       Evil's Agent

Desperation                      A Rope Ends It

The Morse Code                   Here Come Dots

Slot Machines                    Cash Lost in 'em

Animosity                        Is No Amity

Mother-in-law                    Woman Hitler  :)

Snooze Alarms                    Alas! No More Z's

Alec Guinness                    Genuine Class

Semolina                         Is No Meal

The Public Art Galleries         Large Picture Halls, I Bet

A Decimal Point                  I'm a Dot in Place

The Earthquakes                  That Queer Shake

Eleven plus two                  Twelve plus one

Contradiction                    Accord not in it

Princess Diana                   Ascend in Paris  (freaky, right?)


This one's truly amazing:

"To be or not to be: that is the question, whether tis nobler in
 the mind to suffer the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune."

And the Anagram:

"In one of the Bard's best-thought-of tragedies, our insistent hero,
 Hamlet, queries on two fronts about how life turns rotten."


And for the grand finale:

"That's one small step for a man, one giant leap for mankind."  -
 Neil Armstrong

The Anagram:

"Thin man ran; makes a large stride, left planet, pins flag on moon!
 On to Mars!"


                      .__________________________.
              /\__/\  |                          |
             /   O O\_|     ---TrashLaughs---    |
            /          \University of Hard Knocks|
           /      \     \  dogbyte@netzone.com   |
          /   _    \     \_______________________!
         /    |\____\     \      ||
        /     | | | |\____/      ||
       /       \| | | |/ |      _||
      /  /  \   -------  |_____| ||
     /   |   |           |       __)
     |   |   |           |_____  __)      IT'S FREE!!!
     |  |_|_|_|          |     \___)
     /\                  |       !!
    / /\        |        /
   / /  |       |       |       To be added to the list, go to:
 _/ /   |       |       |         http://www.min.net/~dogbyte
!_/    c_c_c_C/ \C_c_c_c/






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 31

                    Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality

From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net>
Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 20:26:48 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 09:55:31 -0500
Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality


>Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 21:55:28 +0000
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: John Rimmer <magonia@magonia.demon.co.uk>
>Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality

>>But typically abduction skeptics don't even mention the full
>>range of possible abduction evidence -- for instance, the claim
>>made by some abduction investigators that abductees corroborate
>>even tiny unpublished details in each others' reports. Note
>>again: I'm not insisting that this claim is correct, or that it
>>means abductions are real. More research needs to be done. I
>>_am_ saying that abduction skeptics rarely (if ever) mention it.

>The problem with this is that these researchers refuse to give
>us the details of the tiny unpublished details, claiming (with
>some logic) that if they did so it would 'contaminate' future
>reports. Consequently we have to take this all on trust.

I, too, have pointed out this problem. I'm glad John and I
agree.

Abduction skeptics still ought (in my opinion) to mention the
claim, while being as pointed as they like when they demand the
documentation all of us deserve.

As I mentioned in a reply to Rebecca, I'm working on one piece
of documentation. Another -- Budd Hopkins'  35 samples of
apparently similar "writing" allegedly seen on board UFOs -- is
supposedly being studied for a future report in JUFOS.

Greg Sandow





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 31

                              Re: ET Call Earth

From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@get2net.dk>
Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 05:51:28 +0100 (MET)
Fwd Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 09:59:15 -0500
Subject: Re: ET Call Earth


Source:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/low/english/sci/tech/newsid_265000/265937.stm

Stig

***

BBC News Online: Sci/Tech

Saturday, January 30, 1999 Published at 15:52 GMT

ET call Earth

By BBC News Online's Science Editor Dr David Whitehouse

**

In a few weeks' time mankind will send out its first detailed
radio message into the cosmos, asking any aliens who may receive
it to get in touch.

It is part of a commercial project called Encounter 2001. This
company based in Houston, USA, is offering the public the chance
to send their own message into space for $30.

Not everyone thinks it is a good idea.

According the scientists involved in listening for intelligent
signals from outer space, called Seti (Search for
Extraterrestrial Intelligence), sending a message out into space
is almost certainly a fruitless exercise.

Dr Frank Stootman of Seti Australia, says that it is not a
message to aliens but to us. He adds that a reply is very
unlikely and certainly not within our lifetime. And, if an
answer does come, it will not be in English.

Chan Tysor of Encounter 2001 counters this. "It's a statement,
sending something of yourself away from the Earth to travel in
space forever. Whether it gets picked up by aliens or not many
people are excited by it."


The message


Before the individual messages are broadcast an encrypted
signal, based on logic and maths, will be sent.

Dr Yrvan Dutil, a scientist working for the Canadian Government,
is helping to design the cosmic message. He points out that the
only other signal deliberately sent into space in 1974 was aimed
at a group of stars that were unlikely to have planets.

Because this signal is aimed at a handful of stars like our Sun
he says that "for practical purposes this will be our first
detailed interstellar transmission."

He is still working on the message, to be transmitted into space
sometime in April by the Evpatoria radio telescope in the
Ukraine.

The message will consist of a series of pages and will be
repeated three times over a period of three hours. The signal
will be 100,000 times stronger than a TV broadcast.


Don't listen, talk


Listening for radio signals from alien life in space is not new.
There have been about 70 attempts over the past 40 years. So far
no signals have been detected.

But transmitting a message into space has been tried only once.

In 1974, the Arecibo radio telescope sent a brief three-minute
message towards the distant M13 stellar cluster.

It consisted of 1,679 pulses. When arranged into a matrix, they
became an image showing atoms, molecules, our solar system and a
representation of a human.

But the cosmic message being contemplated this time will be much
longer, 400,000 bits.

Starting with basic symbols it will use logic to describe
numbers and geometry. It then goes on to introduce concepts such
as atoms, planets and even DNA.

It has been constructed to minimize the loss of information due
to noise introduced into the signal during its interstellar
journey.

"If any aliens ever intercept this message they will have
mastered science so much of the first part of the message, the
part that deals with numbers and atoms, will be familiar to
them", says Dr Dutil.

"They can then go on and deduce a few things about humans such
as where we live, how big we are and how many there are of us."

However, he does have some reservations about sending the
message. "I'm not comfortable about sending something in space
without a social debate."


Aimed at the stars


The message is aimed at stars from 51 to 71 light-years from
Earth. They are all similar to our own Sun. They lie in a region
of the sky called the Summer Triangle.

As well as the encrypted message there will be a series of
greetings written by the general public. Anyone can sign up to
send up to 30 words for $30.

According to Chan Tysor, things people have put on their cosmic
message include their hopes for a more peaceful future for
mankind and other races in space. One person said that we have
made a mess of our planet so asked aliens to put off a visit for
another 100,000 years.

Mr Tysor said that the signal was a kind of monument, "It is a
kind of immortality knowing that something you wrote is beaming
its way out of the solar system into the galaxy."


Questionable science


Many scientists do not think that broadcasting messages to the
stars is a good idea. Among them are many members of the
Setileague, a body that organises amateur searches for
intelligent signals from space using small radio dishes.

"Great entertainment, but questionable science," said its
executive director Dr H Paul Shuch.

It would be fun to beam personal greetings into space, Mr Shuch
concedes, but like a message in a bottle, the prospects for
successful contact are rather slim."

Carol Oliver of Seti Australia says that while she has
reservations about the message being sent into space she hopes
that it will inspire many to take an interest in Seti.

She adds that soon, because of a Seti Australia initiative,
hundreds of thousands of Australian schoolchildren will be
studying the search for life in space as part of a project to
help them find out about the universe and themselves.

But Dr Dutil is worried that the Encounter 2001 message will set
a precedent, "After us zillions of people will try to send a
message into space."

Just imagine he says, "a weirdo group could send what they want
into space and this may put humanity into trouble in the far
future."


Internet Links:

*Encounter 2001
*Setileague
*Seti Australia

The BBC is not responsible for the content of
external internet sites.

=A9







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 31

                    Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality

From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 23:01:28 -0600 (CST)
Fwd Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 10:05:53 -0500
Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality

>From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality
>Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 18:13:13 -0500

<snip>

>The critics have to go a little deeper (as I hope Kevin does in
>his book). They have to beyond saying that hypnosis can
>encourage people to make up stories, and show why abductees are
>making up the particular stories they do. Why, for instance, do
>many people who say they've seen abductees working with the
>aliens all say that the abductees are wearing blue uniforms when
>they do it? Has that detail circulated widely in the literature?
>(Not until fairly recently, after many of the original stories
>were told.) Has it been talked about in abductee support groups?
>Are there unreported groups of abductees describing green
>uniforms, or no uniforms at all? These are the kind of questions
>that, in my opinion, the critics should be looking at.
>

Greg,

We're being a little imprecise here, aren't we? "Why do many all
say?" Are you saying that many people (but not all) report blue
uniforms? That all report blue uniforms? If not, what other
color of uniforms are reported?

My favorite color happens to be blue, ditto my son's. The
overwhelming majority of police uniforms (the authority figures
most of us come in daily contact with) also happen to be blue.
Gee, I guess this means aliens share something in common with us
after all: a love of the color blue. Or maybe the aliens are
color blind, or just happen to be out of khaki-colored uniforms?

I don't mean to be snide about this, as it goes to the bottom of
the issue. Obviously, a uniform, or any piece of clothing, has
to be _some_ color. The issue is whether blue supports an alien,
or human, preference for same.

Like Dylan, I suspect that most of us are tangled up in blue. So
what's new?

>Stuart Appelle, in his lengthy JUFOS paper on the abduction
>evidence, suggests that non-abductees should be asked to imagine
>details like this, to determine whether there's some mental
>template or cultural predisposition that leads people toward
>these repeated abduction details. If you ask non-abductees what
>color the uniforms would be, and most of them say that they're
>blue, then it's much less impressive when abductees report that.

Agreed, which is my point above. As for "confirmatory items
previously unreported in the UFO literature" (my phrase, not
yours), I always wonder why we're not subjected to the real
nitty-gritty? That is, do many abductees report soiling their
underwear when they're abruptly lifted out of bed and
transported through a solid wall into a round spaceship,
whereupon they're rudely greyhandled by aliens and helpers in
blue uniforms? I think I would! Yet to the best of my knowledge,
I can't think of a single case in which a good crap in the pants
has come to light. Not prurient, just curious. Advanced as they
are, I feel sure that the aliens have come to grips with this
unexpected side-effect of their activities. Indeed, maybe this
explains the presence of the helpers in blue, after all. They're
there to clean up!

>As Stuart [Appelle] and others have also pointed out, there
>hasn't been enough research on hypnosis.

Agreed again. A good Gurdjieffian would argue that we all live
life in what amounts to a state of self-hypnosis. Think about
that the next time you watch TV.

<snip>

>I know, of
>course, that the whole question of recovered memory is
>considered very dicey these days, but there's impressive
>evidence from Lenore Terr, among other psychologists, that some
>recovered memories are genuine. That is, the recovered memories
>can be corroborated. Corroboration, as always, is the key.

Percentages alone would guarantee you that. After all, why
should _all_ memories recovered under hypnosis be considered
false by definition? No one has ever suggested that you lie, and
only lie, under hypnosis.

As for corroboration, I couldn't agree more. At the same time,
I'm still waiting for the first medical corroboration of a
missing fetus in association with an abduction account, along
with evidence of a demonstrably extraterrestrial implant.
Feeling blue about the lack of same, too, aren't you?

>One last thought:

<snip>

>Elizabeth Loftus and others have proved that memories can be
>implanted by ordinary questioning, no hypnosis required. Should
>we now prohibit testimony from any witness who was ever
>interrogated by police?


Good question. Suppose the answer depends on to what extent you
think Loftus has proved her case. Certainly cases have been
thrown out of court because of the way (or extent) in which
witnesses were interrogated. The question here is how _casual_
is the implantation of false memories, not whether the
phenomenon exists or not. _All_ memory is somewhat deficient by
definition, a memory of the thing never being the thing itself.

>We need to use a little common sense when we talk about memory.
>Recovered memories are tricky, no doubt about it. But some of
>the writing from critics of recovered memory makes you wonder
>how any of us could ever trust our minds at all. That was one
>feeling I had after reading Elizabeth Loftus's book (she being
>the psychologist most cited in attacks on recovered memories). I
>wondered what she does when, like all of us at some time or
>other, she mislays her car keys. The rest of us aren't surprised
>when, after a few minutes of hapless searching, the light bulb
>suddenly goes off in our heads. "Oh, right! I put them on the
>coffee table when I went into the bedroom to change my pants!"

>So we look on the coffee table, and find the keys. Poor Loftus,
>though -- if she takes what she writes in her book a little too
>seriously, she'd reject a sudden memory like that. After all,
>she's shown in her research how false they can be. She's
>probably still looking for her car keys....


It so happens that I did misplace my car keys yesterday.
Subsequently, I had at least three or four memory flashes as to
where they were. One of them turned out to be right. What were
the others? I forget.

Dennis





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 31

                    Search Is On For Alien Laser Signals

From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@get2net.dk>
Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 06:08:32 +0100 (MET)
Fwd Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 10:10:32 -0500
Subject: Search Is On For Alien Laser Signals


Source: New Scientist, January 30, 1999.

http://www.newscientist.com:80/ns/19990130/nshorts.ht
ml

Stig

***

newswire

Alien Lights

The search is on for lasers being beamed our way by alien
civilisations.

***

The Planetary Society in the US has funded projects in
California and Massachusetts to look for short pulses of light
from nearby stars similar to the Sun, as well as from globular
clusters and galaxies. A third project will examine existing
data from telescopes for steady, narrow-band signals. These two
types of signal might be visible if extraterrestrials were
pointing powerful lasers in our direction.

"Our laser technology is new, but powerful enough to reach other
stars," says Nobel prizewinner Charles Townes of the University
of California at Berkeley, one of the scientists involved. He
thinks extraterrestrial civilisations may have developed
even more powerful versions.

<snip>

>From New Scientist, 30 January 1999

=A9 Copyright New Scientist, RBI Limited 1999






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 31

                  Re: Deficiency In SETI's Drake's Equation

From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj@proaxis.com>
Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 21:54:18 -0800 (PST)
Fwd Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 17:04:47 -0500
Subject: Re: Deficiency In SETI's Drake's Equation

>From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@aol.com>
>Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 23:22:01 EST
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Re: Deficiency In SETI's Drake's Equation

>I received a mailer from Frank Drake and the SETI Institute last
>November soliciting funds, in which Drake writes:

>"Advances in science and technology are putting SETI on the fast
>track as never before. A team of world-renowned astronomers,
>engineers, and technologists -- specially commissioned by SETI
>Institute -- has proposed bold and exciting new SETI ventures
>that will provide humanity with its best opportunity to make
>contact.

>"We urgently need to build a new generation of telescopes and
>signal processors. We must harness the potential of optical
>infrared technology. These may be what it takes to detect a
>faint radio or a flashing infrared beacon sent our way from
>another civilization."
>
>So apparently SETI is considering expanding the search into the
>infrared and perhaps other domains. Freeman Dyson, e.g., has
>pointed out for many years that the best signature of an
>advanced civilization might be in the infrared rather than radio
>spectrum. I think many readers are familiar with the "Dyson
>sphere" concept, in which an advanced alien civilization
>forsakes interstellar travel. Instead the most efficient way to
>expand a specie's lebensraum might be to break up their solar
>system and use it to construct an enormous, self- contained
>spherical shell around their home star, thus capturing 100% of
>the star's solar energy. If the shell were at present earth
>orbit, e.g., the living space would be approximately 10^17 sq.
>miles compared to the paltry 2.5 ^ 10^8 sq. miles we currently
>have on earth's surface. In other words, building the sphere
>would give you the living space equivalent to colonizing 250
>million other worlds.  This would be the ultimate public works
>project.

>Dyson's point here is that all we would likely see of this
>sphere is the infrared heat signature. Any radio wave
>communications (if they still were used) would probably be
>largely confined to the inside of the sphere.

Hi David,

Dyson's Dyson-sphere sure is the height of impracticality, isn't
it? If the advanced civilization he had in mind could convert
all of the mass of a planet the size of Mars into material out
of which to make the spherical shell, and if it were placed at a
distance about equal to the Earth's orbit from the sun, the
shell would only be 0.024 in. thick! (barring an arithmetical
mistake). There'd be comets and meteors piercing it frequently,
and no good way to let the solar wind escape, etc. To make it
sturdy enough to withstand most of such stuff, say by extending
it to 10 feet thick, would then require the mass of 5000 more
Mars-sized planets converted into the shell's structural
material. To gather all that would in itself require the
capability of easy interstellar travel, unless they could
convert Jupiter-type planets' gases into building materials.
Somehow I think the environmentalists of the future would not
want any of that, and would prefer retaining the capability of
sleeping out under the stars with the feel of the cold night air
in their face.

>>(Ntot could be extended further, of course, by considering any
>>ETI who possess inter-galactic travel capabilities.)

>Not to mention any ETI who possess INTRA-galactic travel
>capabilities.

Thanks for correcting me on that. I had meant intra, of course.

>In fact this is probably the single biggest
>shortcoming in the thinking of most SETIists, their assumption
>that interstellar travel is essentially impossible. Well, that's
>simply not true. Even barring some breakthrough propulsion FTL
>propulsion scheme, sub-light travel is definitely theoretically
>possible.

As each new breakthrough in (our) science occurs, however, it
allows them to make tiny extrapolations that go a little farther
towards the feasibility of interstellar travel than before. The
"teleportation of a photon" is perhaps the latest example. But
what they seem incapable of doing is extrapolating our rate of
scientific discovery hundreds of thousands of years into the
future to admit that what we could do then would indeed seem
like magic to us now. Their extrapolations just come to a halt
after a few decades.

>...
>But SETI assumes that aliens remain forever confined to their
>home star system. Thus they generally restrict their searches to
>the most earthlike star systems, one's that would most likely
>evolve native life, rather than be colonized from beyond.

>However, even one ancient, advanced, relentlessly colonizing and
>expanding alien species (think Borg) could explore and colonize
>every nook and crook of the galaxy in only a few million years.
>At that point, throw out the Drake equation, because they could
>be everywhere.

Yes, that argument came out in 1979, and was used by the
we-are-alone advocates as evidence that no other intelligent
life more advanced than us exists in the galaxy, since we have
not been colonized or wiped out by such Borgs. Then Sagan and
other SETI types had to argue (in 1981 & 1983) that the
colonizing alien race would need to stop at each suitable
star/planetary system and pause 100,000 years there before
moving on to explore/colonize the next one further out. (Would
they be able to remember after all that time that colonization
was what their overriding aim was?) That gross assumption slowed
the whole colonization process down so much that the dispersal
of stellar systems, as they rotated around the galactic center,
would render such colonization ineffective. We could then escape
detection by falling through the cracks, which was SETI's
desired conclusion.

Both schools of thought neglected the effect of continuing
scientific advancement, and both neglected the likelihood that
for each alien race intent on wiping out all others, there would
likely be many others who would value the diversity of life.

>Jim, you just don't understand. No matter how intelligent or how
>great the headstart in science & technology, alien civilizations
>will always be limited to chemical rocket speeds.  You have
>Frank Drake's expert opinion on that. Therefore, they could
>never show up here.

OK, if Drake says so. ;)  It's interesting to hear, though, that
you sounded Drake out a few months ago. I'm sure you didn't
expect his response to be any different than what it was.

Jim Deardorff






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 31

                    Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality

From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net>
Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 01:32:21 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 17:09:22 -0500
Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality


>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@connectmmic.net>
>Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality
>Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 17:17:35 -0500

>>Where abductions are concerned, the skeptics are even more
>>guilty of that than believers.

>That does not solve the problem of "failure to analyze" and
>invoking believer-skeptics you are putting mustard on whip
>cream.

>Not trying to be offending, but you are like a bank robber
>pointing at Al Capone to excuse his crimes.  Instead of
>polarizing the debate over a belief-system, why not address
>facts and knowledge?

Good point, Serge. The situation is already polarized, and I've
seen too many skeptics criticize real or imagined faults of
abduction investigators, while ignoring the problems in their
own camp. But maybe I didn't need to refight that battle with
you.

>Abduction is in a phase of D_j_-vu: with its "us and they/we and
>them", it is becoming some kind of movement and all its true
>implications are being lost in the shuffle.  Experiencers claim
>ignorance and despair, and no mainstream abductologist seems to
>be able to alleviate this burden.

It's not as bad as that. One thing I've noticed with the
abductees around Budd Hopkins is how their anxiety goes away.
People can find fault with his research methods if they like.
But I don't think any honest person who observes first hand what
goes on around him can deny him this one great success. People
come to him terribly upset, and come away no longer obsessed
with abductions, and no longer feeling that their experiences
dominate their lives. (Just the opposite, I imagine, from what
most of his skeptical critics belive.)

>>-- for instance, the claim
>>made by some abduction investigators that abductees corroborate
>>even tiny unpublished details in each others' reports. Note
>>again: I'm not insisting that this claim is correct

>Well, I can't take that.

>I get worried when Klass and skeptics get used in an argument.
>Either abductees corroborate even tiny unpublished details in
>each other's reports or they don't.

As I've explained in other posts, I'm working on this question.
Meanwhile, I have to disagree here, and suggest that the
skeptics' objections do matter, however ignorant they may be.
They're rampant in mainstream abduction discussions (that is,
the ones that happen outside ufology). They need to be answered,
and one of the first points to make is that the skeptics haven't
addressed the entire alleged phenomenon.

Attacking the skeptics, though, is certainly no substitute for
research, analysis, and gathering real evidence.

>Let's try my favorite find and replace tool and apply it to
>cases of abduction: replace greys with "the bastards" and UFO or
>whatever with "car" or "van" and show the case to any
>investigator.  My 2 cents that you'll be answered:  "Don't
>worry, we'll get those bastards in the red Chevy."

Budd encourages abductees to express their anger, if they're
angry. One of his techniques is to ask what people would say if
they could speak freely to their abductors. Often the response
is very angry.


>I am sure that, with all your knowledge on abductions, you can
>come with better "analysis".  And you should.

>With respect and understanding that this is a tough job,

Thanks, Serge. I've written some analyses of the abduction
phenomenon. One is coming out soon in Dennis Stacy's
publication, The Anomalist. Soon I'll have a website for my UFO
writing, and you'll be able to decide for yourself where I spend
most of my energy -- attacking the skeptics or coming to grips
with the phenomenon itself.

Greg Sandow






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 31

                    Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality

From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net>
Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 04:31:53 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 17:20:31 -0500
Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality

>Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 19:19:32 -0500
>From: Peter Brookesmith Mendoza <DarkSecretPB@compuserve.com>
>Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality
>To: <updates@globalserve.net>

>With the compliments of the Duke of Mendoza:

>>Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 14:18:31 -0800 (PST)
>>From: Rebecca Keith <xiannekei@yahoo.com>
>>Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>

>Rebecca (hi sunbeam!) quoted Greg--

>>>From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net>
>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>>Subject: Re: 1999 UFO Alien Abduction Conference Announced
>>>Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 10:43:26 -0500

>>>But typically abduction skeptics don't even mention the full
>>>range of possible abduction evidence -- for instance, the claim
>>>made by some abduction investigators that abductees corroborate
>>>even tiny unpublished details in each others' reports.

>and asked

>>I'm just guessing here, but perhaps Brookesmith mentions
>>something similar in his abduction book? Doesn't he interview
>>Betty Hill who says something about abductees getting together
>>at group meeting and comparing notes?

>This is certainly in the Fortean Times version of my evening
>with Betty. The interview is available on the FT website. I
>can't remember if it's in the book.
>
>In a post wirtten so long ago I cannot quote it, Greg implicitly
>took me to task for not following up or mentioning some of these
>"tiny unpublished details" in my book ("Alien Abductions",
>Barnes & Noble (USA), Blandford (UK), ISBN 0-7607-0764-2).

(snip)

The esteemed Mr. Peritonitis D. Mallificarum wrote:

(Who I miss hearing from BTW! <g>)

>The other "tiny unpublished detail" of which I know anything,
>and have seen an example or two, is the "alien script" recorded
>by Budd Hopkins. Greg, John Powell, John Velez and others
>including yrs trly discussed ways of researching their
>authenticity at length about two years ago on this list, but
>that may have been before it was archived on the Web. I gather
>Prof Stuart Appelle is doing something about these, but whether
>he's taken up any of the ideas we kicked around I don't know.
>But the reasonable demand was made of me that I didn't reproduce
>any of this "alien writing", as that could mess up later data,
>and I was happy to go along with that.

Peter if you would, (or anyone else with a plausible theory)
'riddle me' this;

During one of these 'encounters' I was _told_ to study and
remember a "symbol" that was (projected?) onto a screen. Within
this "symbol" were characters or glyphs of a kind I had never
seen before. I was instructed to do this by a small 'nonhuman'
being. A 'Grey' for lack of a better term. (They're much
'whiter' in color than 'grey.' It's why I've never really
understood that 'designation!') Anyway, . . .

Budd asked me after a hypnosis session on this particular event
if I could reproduce the "characters/glyphs" for him. To which I
replied, "sure, I'm an artist gimme a pencil." I then (as
carefully as I could) drew what I had been shown. The next thing
that happened although incidental to this account had a
tremendous impact on me at the time. When I handed the paper
over to Budd, the blood drained out of his face! (It's hard to
fake that!)

He asked me to relax for a moment and told me that he'd be back
in a minute or two. He returned clutching a plastic (purple)
folder to his chest, and before he'd show it to me, he made me
_promise_ him that I would never reproduce what he was about to
show me. His reason was, that he only possesed a 'few' items
that hadn't been published all over the place that he used to
assist him in identifying cases that begged closer inspection. A
tool of 'verification' so to speak.

He placed the folder in front of me and opened it. Inside, (at
the time) there were approximately seven or eight pieces of
paper. Each page was handwritten, most in ink, and maybe one or
two in pencil or a marker. Each page had a few or many (it
varied from page to page) of the same "glyphs/characters" that I
had just drawn. I sat there in complete shock as I began to
notice _identical_ characters (to the ones I had drawn) on
_each_ of these papers. They were _all_ in a different hand
(written by different folks) and the dates at the top of the
pages ranged years apart.

Please bear in mind that before this I had -never- seen anything
like what I had drawn and was now seeing on these papers. Before
reading Budds book Missing Time (which brought me to him,) I had
never read _any_ of the UFO literature, had never attended a
conference or a lecture on the subject, nor was I even familiar
with most of the details being reported by others about UFO
abductions. (I _had_ heard about the Betty and Barney Hill case
although I was completely unfamiliar with the 'details' of it.)

I am also not Uri Geller or Jean Dixon so there was no way that
I "psychically" pulled these 'letters' out of the air or somehow
mentally 'sussed' the contents of that folder. (Although it
_would_ be compelling evidence for 'remote viewing' if true!)
But I don't think that was the case here.

As I gazed at the pages, I began to realize that at least parts
of what I recalled were rooted in events being shared by others.
That there was a "reality" to all of it that was being confirmed
for me in a very "in your face" kind of way. It was one of many
such "confirmations" that I have gotten along the way. On that
particular day my world view suffered a severe shock and all I
could do at the time was to break down and weep. The enormity of
what this incident suggested was almost too much to bear. All I
could think to say to Budd after seeing those papers was, "My
God, this is all real!"

Now I would like to ask;

Not being psychic, and never having seen anything like those
characters before (at least not before the UFO abduction
experience) _how_ could I have reproduced _exactly_ what was
written by the others on those pages? Unless we all saw the same
thing under the same circumstances. As far as I can see, it
cannot be explained in any other plausible way. It's too freaky.
It would just be too much of a fluke/stretch for something like
that to be explained any other way.

The experience itself had happened almost _17_ years before this
session with Budd. Yet the 'letters' I reproduced appeared on
each and every page! And _everyone_ a complete stranger to me.
There was absolutely no possibility of 'collaboration' because
at the time I had not attended any of Budds' group meetings. I
hadn't met any of the others.

Now here's the kicker:  I saw that writing on board a UFO.
(1976) The 'others' claim to have seen theirs in the same
place.(on board a UFO) and at different times, and different
locations. I considered it a _confirming_ revelation and
compelling evidence for the 'reality' of the original
experience.

What do _you_ make of it? It's quite a cute conundrum.

Yes, the pages (including mine and several others that Budd has
accumulated since my session) are now at Cornell Univ. in the
hands of Stewart Appelle. 'Supposedly' being analysed. (Senior
Sandow: any word on that yet?)

>Anyway--all this is a long-winded way of saying that these
>"details" haven't been discussed by skeptics, and by this one
>in particular, for practical reasons rather than lack of
>scruple or inability to cope with the shocking implications, de
>da.

Ah yes, you are an honorable lad in _all_ the ways that count
Mendoza. Why I luv your skeptical hide so. Not to mention that
'wit' of yours that has sent me diving to the floor on _many_
occasions clutching my sides laughing as real tears steamed down
my cheeks. :)

Hope you have the time to consider and respond. I'd find your
'take' on this of interest.

Warm regards,

John Velez, O.O.H.E  (Out Of House Experiencer)
________________________________________________
                                jvif@spacelab.net
INTRUDERS FOUNDATION/ABDUCTION INFORMATION CENTER
                            http://www.if-aic.com
"Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind."
________________________________________________






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 31

             New 'Flying Triangle' Sightings in North West (UK)

From: Tim Matthews <matthews@zetnet.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 11:21:22 -0000
Fwd Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 20:40:45 -0500
Subject: New 'Flying Triangle' Sightings in North West (UK)


Dear All,

As you know I've been investigating Flying Triangle Sightings in
the UK for four years now and have interviewed over 130 people
who claim to have seen these aircraft.

None of them have claimed that what they have seen was 'football
field sized' although several have claimed sizes similar to the
Vulcan bomber of old...

Over the last week and as a result of my appearance in local
newspapers and on the radio several people have rung me to
report new FT sightings. These have been of the highest standard
and two are of particular note;

29/12/98 - Time; between 2200-2230pm. Location; Broadgate,
Preston, next to River Ribble.

Witness, a local DJ Peter H, saw a triangle flying at low speed,
app 30 knots, flying from left to right. This was certainly not
a Police helicopter (there was a rather gruesome murder in the
area a couple of years ago and all the residents are very aware
of helicopters) or, as British Aerospace would have us believe,
Eurofighter.

The triangle was somewhat larger than the jet fighters seen so
often in the area and was notable for a pattern of red lights
around its' entire perimeter. As it passed by, entirely silently
at a distance of around 1/4 mile, Peter noticed a bright light
(but not a beam as such) evident on the right side approximately
half way down the leading edge. This was almost an equilateral
triangle - the triangle had a relatively broad back and probably
not a 75 degree sweep.

There was no evidence of high performance as such beyond the
silent performance - something that is always difficult to
gauge..

The fact that the craft appeared to be adhering to the course of
the River Ribble is instructive given similar events noted in my
previous research papers and Jenny Randles 'Northern UFO News'
and her book (which draws upon some of my research) "Something
In The Air."

The witness provided as much detail as possible and is 100%
certain of the shape and characteristics of the craft seen. A
journalist colleague of mine - interested in FTs and with
military expertise - rang the witness and exactly the same
details were reported to him by Peter.

Sighting 2

11/8/1995. Time; Midnight. Location; Goosnargh Village - a few
miles North of Preston.

Black triangle, unlit, passed by Mrs R's house in the Village at
midnight. It made an odd rumbling sound upon approach which
turned to a "swooshing" sound as it passed very low past the ash
tree at the end of the witnesses garden. It was quite large
(again bigger than a jet fighter seen locally) and was also seen
by other locals who didn't want to come forward for "fear or
ridicule" according to Mrs. R.

Travelled much slower than a normal aircraft and disappeared
from view quickly. Witness thought that it was 'a new stealth
aircraft' and rang Warton BAe (the local facility) next morning
whereupon she was apparently told that the last night had seen
"aerial activity". The telephone operator confirmed this with
another member of staff.

The sound reported is exactly the same as a sighting from
Carnforth, Lancashire, that was made by over a dozen people a
few months earlier.

Note the lighting pattern in the first report is similar to the
triangles reported by witnesses to the IUN in Yorkshire during
the 1988 flap.....

Question; which facility is situated nearby - Warton BAe of
course. Maybe it's not quite that simple though........!

More soon!

Tim Matthews - Lancashire UFO Society






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 31

                    Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality

From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 09:52:20 EST
Fwd Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 20:44:46 -0500
Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality


>From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality
>Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 18:13:13 -0500


>>From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
>>Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 12:53:44 EST
>>To: updates@globalserve.net
>>Subject: Re: 1999 UFO Alien Abduction Conference Announced

>>>Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 10:13:53 -0800 (PST)
>>>From: Rebecca Keith <xiannekei@yahoo.com>
>>>Subject: Re: 1999 UFO Alien Abduction Conference Announced
>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>

>>>>This is why some states now prohibit witnesses who have been
>>>>hypnotized (questioned under hypnosis about the crime) from
>>>>testifying. It is simply too easy to implant information even by
>>>>the most careful of questioners.

>A small clarification.

>Some states forbid testimony derived from hypnosis, and all of
>them should, because without independent corroboration there's
>no way to determine whether a hypnotically recalled memory is
>accurate.

>This, however, doesn't stop police departments, on occasion,
>from using hypnosis to develop evidence. And if the evidence can
>be independently corroborated, it can then be used in court.

>For instance: If I'm a possible witness to a murder, and under
>hypnosis I say that I saw Prince Charles do it, my testimony
>wouldn't be allowed in court. But the police can act on what I
>claim to remember. They can look into the Prince's whereabouts,
>and discover that he was not in Buckingham Palace the night of
>the crime, as he claimed, but right where the crime was
>committed. They can discover that he bought exactly the kind of
>gun used in the crime. Finally they can find a witness who saw
>the Prince pull the trigger, and all this new evidence -- which
>they might not have gone after, if they hadn't hypnotized me --
>should be more that enough to convict the Prince in court.

>There's at least one paper in the psychology literature,
>describing a case much like this.

The point, I believe, is that the hypnotically recovered
testimony hasn't been used on its own. It required corroboration
of some kind. But the point is that, in California, for example,
the testimony from the witness who recovered it under hypnosis
is not allowed. The other evidence would be.

>Abduction researchers, as I've observed before, don't stress the
>problems with hypnosis enough. But on the other hand, the best
>of them never believe a story just because one person told it
>under hypnosis. I can't stress this enough. The case for
>abductions is built from many hypnotic and non-hypnotic accounts
>that appear to confirm each other, even (allegedly) in tiny,
>unpublished details. So I'm a little tired, to be honest, of
>hearing the problems with hypnosis brought up over and over by
>critics of abduction research.

>The critics have to go a little deeper (as I hope Kevin does in
>his book). They have to beyond saying that hypnosis can
>encourage people to make up stories, and show why abductees are
>making up the particular stories they do. Why, for instance, do
>many people who say they've seen abductees working with the
>aliens all say that the abductees are wearing blue uniforms when
>they do it? Has that detail circulated widely in the literature?
>(Not until fairly recently, after many of the original stories
>were told.) Has it been talked about in abductee support groups?
>Are there unreported groups of abductees describing green
>uniforms, or no uniforms at all? These are the kind of questions
>that, in my opinion, the critics should be looking at.

The problems with hypnosis are well known and too often
overlooked in abduction research. Yes, we are beginning to
understand them better, but I still hear the abduction
researchers saying, "Hypnosis is the only thing, that we know
of, that really is effective here. It has been recommended by
and endorsed by, the American Medical Association, AMA, for use
in cases of - and psychiatric groups will say this is the only
real tool you have that is pretty efficient to unlocking a
period of genuine missing time."

However, the American Medical Association, Report on the Council
on Scientific Affairs in a statement released in 1985 and again
in 1994, said, "The council concludes that hypnosis induced
recollections actually appeared to be less reliable than non-
hypnotic recall."

In October 1997, the Royal College of Psychiatrists announced a
ban on using recovered memories in cases of child abuse. They
noted that the practice of using hypnosis for recovering
memories can give rise to false memories which are often
strongly held beliefs.

However, the use of hypnosis to recover the memories is only a
small part of the overall picture. It is important to the
understanding what is happening, but to understand the entire
picture, as Greg suggests, hypnosis must be seen as only part of
the problem.

>Stuart Appelle, in his lengthy JUFOS paper on the abduction
>evidence, suggests that non-abductees should be asked to imagine
>details like this, to determine whether there's some mental
>template or cultural predisposition that leads people toward
>these repeated abduction details. If you ask non-abductees what
>color the uniforms would be, and most of them say that they're
>blue, then it's much less impressive when abductees report that.

Which is what Alvin Lawson did and was castigated for "leading"
his subjects into an abduction scenario. Yes, Lawson's work can
be seen as flawed (yet it is cited in some of the psychological
journal articles), and yes, more work more carefully controlled
must be done but there is an ethical question here. How far do
we go in inducing memories to study the ease with which they can
be induced and in learning how strongly they are held? At what
point do we stop the research because it is necessary to
manipulate human memory to do it?

Clark Hull, for example, was forced to abandon his research of
hypnosis by the Yale School of Medicine because it was believed
that the hypnosis was damaging and dangerous. Yes, this was in
the 1930s, but research on humans were less strictly controlled
then.

>As Stuart and others have also pointed out, there hasn't been
>enough research on hypnosis. For instance, the research that
>claims to show hypnosis doesn't help in accurately recalling
>forgotten details was all or almost all done in laboratory
>settings. There hasn't, to my knowledge, been any research on
>hypnotic recall of real-life traumatic memories. I know, of
>course, that the whole question of recovered memory is
>considered very dicey these days, but there's impressive
>evidence from Lenore Terr, among other psychologists, that some
>recovered memories are genuine. That is, the recovered memories
>can be corroborated. Corroboration, as always, is the key.

This is quite a debate in the psychological community with the
forces lining up based on what they believe. Some of the more
recent studies have begun to suggest that the recovered memories
are not recovered at all. In fact, some of Terr's work seems to
be self contradictory, not to mention the fact that no one has
proposed a method in which the memories are immediately
repressed only to surface decades later. But this argument has
now moved from hypnosis and missing time into another very
controversial arena.

>One last thought:

>>>This is why some states now prohibit witnesses who have been
>>>hypnotized (questioned under hypnosis about the crime) from
>>>testifying. It is simply too easy to implant information even by
>>>the most careful of questioners.

>Elizabeth Loftus and others have proved that memories can be
>implanted by ordinary questioning, no hypnosis required. Should
>we now prohibit testimony from any witness who was ever
>interrogated by police?

No one suggested that, but we should also be aware of how easily
the questioning can result in the creation of a memory. In one
experiment, the students were shown a traffic accident. They
were asked, after watching the film, if the blue car had stopped
at the stop sign. Many of them answered the question by either
saying yes or no. The point was that there was no stop sign.
Yes, this was another laboratory experiment.

>We need to use a little common sense when we talk about memory.
>Recovered memories are tricky, no doubt about it. But some of
>the writing from critics of recovered memory makes you wonder
>how any of us could ever trust our minds at all. That was one
>feeling I had after reading Elizabeth Loftus's book (she being
>the psychologist most cited in attacks on recovered memories). I
>wondered what she does when, like all of us at some time or
>other, she mislays her car keys. The rest of us aren't surprised
>when, after a few minutes of hapless searching, the light bulb
>suddenly goes off in our heads. "Oh, right! I put them on the
>coffee table when I went into the bedroom to change my pants!"

But, haven't you just moved from the arena of memory into the
arena of recovered memory? Isn't it these long dominant memories
that are suspect? If, in a sudden "flash" of insight, you
remember your father murdering your best friend twenty years
ago, is that a recovered memory as opposed to something that was
merely forgotten? Isn't the controversy over these sorts of
memories of abuse recovered after twenty, thirty and forty years
that is being challenged?


>So we look on the coffee table, and find the keys. Poor Loftus,
>though -- if she takes what she writes in her book a little too
>seriously, she'd reject a sudden memory like that. After all,
>she's shown in her research how false they can be. She's
>probably still looking for her car keys....

No, she would understand the difference in what is being
discussed here. Psychologist Ulric Neisser had an opportunity to
study "flashbulb" memories, those memories of important events
like the Kennedy assassination or the Challenger explosion. He
gave his freshman students a short questionnaire the day after
the Challenger exploded asking about where they were when they
heard, what they were doing. Three years later he gave those
same students, now seniors, the same questionnaire with a
single, additional question. How accurate to you believe your
memories to be? According to the research, a quarter of the
students had no memories that were accurate. In one case a
student said he had been home with his parents when it was clear
he was away from home at college.

When confronted with the inaccuracy of these memories, the
students argued with them, even though they had provided the
original information within hours of the event. One student
said, "I still remember everything happening the way I told you.
I can't help it." She was defending the memories that were
clearly an invention of her own mind about the event.

So, rather than just suggest that hypnosis is a poor
investigative tool, we moved into recovered memories, many of
which supposedly were not recovered under hypnosis. The point,
however, is that hypnosis, if used, can induce more problems
than it solves. To understand some of the abduction phenomena,
it is important to understand hypnosis. And no, Greg, is it not
a long section in the book, merely one of those in which many of
its problems are explored.

KRandle





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 31

              Re: 1999 UFO Alien Abduction Conference Announced

From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 10:11:06 EST
Fwd Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 20:53:06 -0500
Subject: Re: 1999 UFO Alien Abduction Conference Announced


>Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 04:23:30 -0500
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net>
>Subject: Re: 1999 UFO Alien Abduction Conference Announced


>>From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
>>Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 09:51:08 EST
>>To: updates@globalserve.net
>>Subject: Re: 1999 UFO Alien Abduction Conference Announced

>>>Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 13:58:24 -0500
>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>>From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net>
>>>Subject: Re: 1999 UFO Alien Abduction Conference Announced

>>>>From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
>>>>Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 09:28:07 +0000
>>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>>>Subject: 1999 UFO Alien Abduction Conference Announced

><snip>

>>>>If Kevin Randle were to fly himself in, would he be welcome to
>>>>address the conference? Certainly there should be a little time
>>>>available.

<snipped for brevity)

>Kevin wrote:

>>In many of those conferences the agenda is out there for
>>everyone to see. If Richard Boylan is the conference organizer,
>>then it is clear to everyone that nothing considered "negative"
>>will be presented. All New Age philosophy will be endorsed and
>>all evidences of scientific thought will be rejected.

>Geez Kevin, you mentioned the "unmentionable one." EBK must have
>been drowsy when this one came across his screen. The mere
>mention of Heir Doktors name _usually_ ellicits a loud
>"hrrrumph" from him. <G>

>[Looked long, harrumphed, looked harrumphed and posted--ebk]

Gee, I thought we could mention the name.

<snip>

>>As for knocking you all over the internet, isn't that something
>>of an exaggeration? I personally posted my message twice, both
>>times to closed discussion lists. I have not posted it to any of
>>the open news groups, and in fact, haven't looked at any of
>>those in several months.

>Aw Kevin, now you're being coy. You've been around long enough
>to know that anything that is posted by someone as well known as
>yourself, will get reposted ad nausium all over the place. And
>in no time flat! They don't call it the World Wide Web for
>nothing partner. In 24 hours a post from UpDates could have made
>it around the world at least three times. Yeah, it reaches a lot
>of eyes. And you know that. "Exaggeration?" I don't think so.

Have you seen it posted in other arenas? This is a closed list
and I expect the posts made here to remain here. I did check
some of the newsgroups but all I found were your announcements
about the conference. I didn't post anything there about it. So,
the question remains - Is it an exaggeration?

<snip>

>Also, (and this is a big bone of contention with me)

>None of them _ever_ take into account that (some folks) may
>simply be telling the truth to the best of their ability.

I believe that the majority of the abductees are telling the
truth to the best of their ability.



>>All I was saying was that we
>>could, if we looked, find various elements of the abduction
>>phenomena in science fiction and pop culture, and that we had
>>better find ways of dealing with that information rather than
>>simply dismissing it.

>There's really only one way to "deal with it" Give "it" credence
>over the reports of the experiencers. Doesn't make much sense
>when looked at in that light does it. It _may be_ valid in
>(some) cases. But, it only serves to minimize what is being
>honestly reported by many credible individuals. Price is too
>high just to prove that (a few) are/may be influenced by media.

Not the point at all. It is one part of a picture and if we're
going to see the truth, we must see the whole picture.

>>I would, of course, have
>>preferred to make the argument myself, but that is not to be.

>My high school basketball coach used to say; "Buck up boys,
>there's always next year! <VBG>

Tell that to the Chicago Cubs <An even bigger G>

>Greg is a fair guy Kevin. Submit some questions for the 'panel.'
>I'm _sure_ Greg will use what he can during the discussion. I
>certainly have no objections to your having some input. Your
>work and reputation have earned you the right to be heard. We
>aren't out to deny you that. (Contrary to your original remarks
>about us and the conference.) <G>

Of course Greg is. Never said that he wasn't.

>Regards, and hopefully still on friendly terms,

Why not? I can separate an argument about a situation from a
personal attack... though many in the UFO can't. That's why I
sometimes talk to Phil Klass who in some respects is a pretty
funny guy. (That ought to stir up another fire storm. Randle
admitted that he talks to Phil Klass.)

KRandle






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 31

                         Re: Santilli's Film Scraps

From: Bob Shell <bob@bobshell.com>
Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 10:13:06 +0000
Fwd Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 20:55:16 -0500
Subject: Re: Santilli's Film Scraps


>From: Gildas Bourdais <GBourdais@aol.com>
>Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 16:38:45 EST
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Re: Santilli's Film Scraps

>>Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 08:07:05 +0000
>>Subject: Re: Santilli's Film Scraps
>>From: Bob Shell <bob@bobshell.com>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>

>>This could also account for Capt. McAndrew's comment to me
>>that he had seen the same film in Air Force archives.


>This is one of the most important informations that you have
>made, it seems to me.

>And here is a simple question:

>Did capt. McAndrew tell you, even rougly, when he saw that "same
>film" in the Air Force archives?


I don't think he mentioned a specific date but I had the
impression from context that he was speaking of seeing it some
years earlier.  He also indicated having seen more of the film
than Santilli had.

>At least, did he see it before, or after the release of the film
>by Santilli?

Before.

>If he saw it after, it would not be worth mentioning since, very
>soon, thousands of copies were distributed worldwide: it could
>be any of these copies!

>So, I suppose he meant that he had seen it before. Then, I don't
>see many possibilities:

>1) The AA footage is an authentic military film,

>or

>2) It is a fake made by the military, or a related agency. (In
>this case, it could well be a fake close to a real one).

>In both cases, Santilli had only a copy of it, and was of course
>anable to give a foot of original film for datation, but this is
>not a key point in this context. It could have been shot any
>time.

>3) Here is another possibility: captain McAndrew lied to you!

Of course that is possible.

>Then the question is: why?

>Is he another Richard Doty??

>If so, what about the "Roswell Report, Case Closed" authored by
>the same?

He did a good job, apparently.  He was promoted out of this job
and sent off to spook school.








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 31

                 'Clinton'? On 'The Base That Doesn't Exist'

From: Ignatius Graffeo <Ufoseek@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 10:22:18 EST
Fwd Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 21:00:08 -0500
Subject: 'Clinton'? On 'The Base That Doesn't Exist'


[Source: GroomWatch@aol.com - January 30 1999 ]


Clinton's Statement on Groom Lake/Area 51

THE WHITE HOUSE Office of the Press Secretary

TEXT OF A LETTER FROM THE PRESIDENT TO THE SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE
OF REPRESENTATIVES AND THE PRESIDENT OF THE SENATE

January 29, 1999

Dear Mr. Speaker: (Dear Mr. President:)

Consistent with section 6001(a) of the Resource Conservation and
Recovery Act (RCRA) (the "Act"), as amended, 42 U.S.C. 6961(a),
notification is hereby given that on September 25, 1998, I
issued Presidential Determination No. 98-36 (copy attached) and
thereby exercised the authority to grant certain exemptions
under section 6001(a) of the Act.

Presidential Determination No. 98-36 exempted the United States
Air Force's operating location near Groom Lake, Nevada, from any
Federal, State, interstate, or local hazardous or solid waste
laws that might require the disclosure of classified information
concerning that operating location to unauthorized persons.
Information concerning activities at the operating location near
Groom Lake has been properly determined to be classified, and
its disclosure would be harmful to national security. Continued
protection of this information is, therefore, in the paramount
interest of the United States.

The determination was not intended to imply that in the absence
of a Presidential exemption, RCRA or any other provision of law
permits or requires the disclosure of classified information to
unauthorized persons. The determination also was not intended to
limit the applicability or enforcement of any requirement of law
applicable to the Air Force's operating location near Groom Lake
except those provisions, if any, that would require the
disclosure of classified information.

Sincerely,


WILLIAM J. CLINTON

____________________________________

Keeping you informed with the latest UFO and alternative news:
UFOSEEK... For the Source! http://www.ufoseek.org







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 31

                Re: Santilli Knew 'Tent Footage' Was a Fraud?

From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 10:40:35 +0000
Fwd Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 21:01:58 -0500
Subject: Re: Santilli Knew 'Tent Footage' Was a Fraud?


>From: Bob Shell <bob@bobshell.com>
>Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 14:02:52 +0000
>Fwd Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 16:34:08 -0500
>Subject: Re: Santilli Knew 'Tent Footage' Was a Fraud?

>>From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
>>Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 12:22:27 +0000
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>Subject: Santilli Knew 'Tent Footage' Was a Fraud?

Earlier, I had asked:

>>I'm confused. I thought you previously said that the cameraman
>>fooled Santilli into believing the footage was camera original.
>>At least that's the impression I got from the following post you
>>offered which read:

Bob replied:

>AFTER we proved to Santilli that it was copy film he asked the
>cameraman and he said something like "of course it is copy film,
>I made the copies myself on the printer at the base lab."

Also, I had inquired:

>>Was the film Santilli bought an "A-wind" or a "B-wind"?

Bob replied:

>Honestly, I don't recall at this point.

<snip>

>Apparently it was copied onto dupe film since the only edge
>codes on it are those printed through from the original.

Hi Bob,

I know the issue of an "A-wind" or "B-wind" seems trivial, but
there is a logic to my question. There is nothing to prevent
anyone from making a contact print off of another contact print;
I've seen coaches do that from old football film prints many
times in the past. The results are fine only the emmulsion comes
out on the same side as camera original as a result.

Since we know that "Santilli's original" is a print, then the
question remaining is if the Cameraman (assuming there is one)
is telling the truth about how he came into possession of it,
right?

If Santilli's film print has the emmulsion on the same side as a
camera original, then that means it was made off of another dupe
and not camera original. In such a case, it would clearly
indicate either of the following:

A) That the cameraman did not have access to the camera original
and would, therefore, be lying as to his involvement in the
shooting of it. By extension, all the events and episodes that
he claims to have happened would be in serious doubt. He would
simply be a lab technician that stumbled onto some unusual film
that he made a copy of for himself.

or

B) That Santilli is simply lying about the existence of the
Cameraman to try and validate some unusal film, the origins of
which he hasn't a clue.

Later,

Roger Evans






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 31

                        Re: 'Apocalypse Pretty Soon'

From: Mark Cashman <mcashman@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 10:57:16 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 21:05:15 -0500
Subject: Re: 'Apocalypse Pretty Soon'

>Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 12:40:31 -0800
>From: Alex Heard <aheard@wired.com>
>To: updates@globalserve.net
>Subject: Apocalypse Pretty Soon

>This is a general message to participants in this forum. My name
>is Alex Heard; I�m an editor at Wired magazine and the author of
>Apocalypse Pretty Soon, a new book about American subcultures at
>the turn of the millennium. Two chapters in the book are
>UFO-related, and I think you'll find them interesting and
>entertaining. One is about the Unarius Academy of Science, the
>famed UFO-oriented religion in Southern California. Another
>concerns Dr. Steven Greer, a contactee who takes groups of
>people out at night to try and "initiate" contact with
>extraterrestrials.

Mr Heard -

The last thing I would find "entertaining" is more attention
paid to these loonies.

The mainstream media and now you seem to find plenty of press
space and time to cover the kooks and nutcases who ride the
fringes of ufology. What you don't seem to find time and space
for are the serious researchers who are busy trying to find
something out about a subject largely scorned by science.

Over the last 50 years, there have been thousands of cases of
Unidentified Flying Objects interfering with vehicles, as
documented at

        http://www.temporaldoorway.com/47emecat.htm

and in the BUFORA Vehicle Interference catalog and a similar
catalog from CUFOS (which included an excellent and revealing
statistical analysis by Mark Rodeghier).

There have been numerous cases of medical effects, including
short term eye and skin irritation, long term damage, and even
death, as documented at

        http://www.temporaldoorway.com/eyeskin.htm

and in the recent catalog by John Schuessler (available from
MUFON).

There have been numerous traces left behind by UFOs which have
landed or approached the ground. These are documented in
numerous references, including Ted Phillips classic Physical
Trace Catalog. Some of these, such as the 1981 Trans-en-Provence
case, have remained unexplained and have been the subject of
further discussions, as can be found in:

http://www.temporaldoorway.com/ufo/analysis/transenp.htm

and at:

http://www.jse.com/ufo_reports/Vallee_returntotrans/toc.html

I am frankly sick of the attitude which allows the media to
ignore the solid and reputable investigations by reasonable and
scientifically oriented researchers, in favor of the clearly
bogus ranting and posturing of zealots and nutcases.

You could do better. You should do better. Try to do better.

------
Mark Cashman, creator of The Temporal Doorway at
http://www.temporaldoorway.com
- Original digital art, writing, and UFO research -

UFO cases, analysis, classification systems, and more...
http://www.temporaldoorway.com/ufo.htm
------






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 31

                    Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality

From: Rebecca Keith <xiannekei@yahoo.com>
Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 08:19:44 -0800 (PST)
Fwd Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 21:08:02 -0500
Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality


>From: Bill Weber <koran@cchat.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality
>Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 22:43:04 -0500


>May I ask a few sincere questions here?

>It would seem that comparison of "tiny, unpublished details"
>would be a legitimate method for research.  Why not?  But the

Bill, it would be a very significant area of research for
someone who was skilled in picking apart the data. As the Duke
mentioned in another response, a serious attempt was made to try
to check this data out, but the suggestion was turned down by
Budd. I don't believe other researchers were contacted, but I
doubt the answer would be any different.  I'm certainly not
qualified to do that kind of research, but I do think it is a
valid avenue of inquiry.

But we also must think about what else we might learn from such
a study. What about all the tiny, unpublished details that don't
agree? I'm sure there are some of those. What would that mean?

>above statement seem to set the bar for "significant details"
>very high - maybe unattainably high.  Of course the abductee
>respondents shouldn't know each other, nor should they contact
>each other, but must they have lived all their lives in absolute
>isolation to avoid some obscure, media influence?

No, I think that is impossible, but I do think we must take the
influence of the media or pop culture into consideration when
analyzing the data.

>similarities between stories for those respondents who have
>lived normal lives then insignificant? What characteristic of
>abductee or ground rule for a "significant detail" would get the
>skeptical reader past the "Weaknesses" section of the research?

I can't answer that. I'm not embarassed to say that I am
skeptical of abduction stories, but that doesn't mean that I
don't believe them. All it means is I don't know what to think.

The problem I have with all of this comes from a personal
standpoint because I one time I was led to believe (and that is
the right phrase!) that I was an abductee. I now believe that I
wasn't abducted and that all the symptoms I experienced were
explainable as other things. Because of this, I don't think I
could be called unbiased, but I do try to be fair.

To make a lousy analogy, I'm kind of like the kid who went to
Catholic schools all her life and then decides she's an atheist.
However, I don't want to change anyone else's mind about what
they think might have happened to them. I only know what
happened to me and I do think it could happen to others. That
would be a shame.

>What would that kind of study look like?

I wish I had an answer, but I'd like to see less carpenters,
artists and weekend hypnotists doing "research." I'd like to see
more folks in the medical field become involved.

At one time I had an idea about that, but I don't think it was
very well accepted.

Thanks,
Rebecca







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 31

                    Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality

From: Rebecca <xiannekei@yahoo.com>
Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 09:04:10 -0800 (PST)
Fwd Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 21:28:44 -0500
Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality


>From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality
>Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 20:23:52 -0500

>>>Where abductions are concerned, the skeptics are even more
>>>guilty of that than believers. Note: this is NOT a comment on
>>>Kevin, who's thoughtful about everything he does.

>>I consider myself a skeptic and that doesn't mean I'm a
>>nonbeliever. By contrasting skeptics being more guilty than
>>believers, you are suggesting I'm a nonbeliever.

>Rebecca, I was hardly talking about you. I was talking about
>published writers in both camps.

Thanks for clarifying that.

[...]

>>>If anyone knows of an abduction skeptic who mentions this
>>>pro-abduction argument, even scathingly, I'd love to know about
>>>it.

>>Should skeptic claim that this is a fact? Should he/she say "it
>>is claimed..." or what?

>I myself wouldn't claim this as a fact, so I'd hardly ask
>skeptics to. I'd simply ask them to note that it's claimed, just
>as you suggest. Then they ought to state what they'd think if
>abduction researchers were able to prove that this was actually
>so.

Or perhaps they could just say it is claimed but it hasn't been
proven. No reason to suggest what it might mean if it were true
because it, IMO, opinion is just too generic of a term.

>>I'm just guessing here, but perhaps Brookesmith mentions
>>something similar in his abduction book? Doesn't he interview
>>Betty Hill who says something about abductees getting together
>>at group meeting and comparing notes?

>Peter posted something here to that effect, using (I think) the
>text of an article he published elsewhere. I think it might have
>been an outtake from his book. At the time, I thought -- and
>should have posted here -- that Betty Hill is hardly an expert
>on the current abduction phenomenon, despite her historical
>importance. Much of what she said, I thought, was more or less
>off the top of her head. I'm not sure why Peter thought it was
>worth publishing, unless he was just having fun saying, "See,
>even a famous abudctee thinks abduction research has problems."
>Quoting Betty Hill on current abduction stuff is a little like
>quoting Little Richard on the current state of rock & roll.
>He'll have a lively opinion, but nobody would take it seriously.

I think Betty Hill's interview was interesting and I'm glad
Peter mentioned it. I happen to think that Betty's opinions are
important as she was at the forefront of the abduction
phenomenon. She has seen things change, just as Little Richard
has seen rock & roll change. These are disposable people who can
be just thrown away because their experiences happened a long
time ago. However, their opinions should be put in the proper
context and I don't think Peter was holding Betty out to be an
expert.

>>I need to organize my thoughts a little more clearly on this,
>>but the days of abductees claiming to have no prior knowledge of
>>abductions stories are over, IMO. And if my opinion is correct,
>>it would appear to me that it would be very difficult to
>>establish tiny details from abductee accounts if one wanted to
>>study that particular aspect.

>It's virtually impossible to prove an abductee never heard the
>tiny details somewhere. You can always decide that Budd Hopkins
>or David Jacobs or John Carpenter might have told someone.

That's a possibility as well, but I'd give them more credit than
that. I think it more likely that the "tiny details" could be
coincidence, or unintentional suggestions from other abductees.

>On the other hand, I've seen abductees come into the abduction
>world knowing less than you'd think. More than once I've had an
>abductee friend call in a panic, after having read in an
>abduction book something he or she never dreamed someone else
>knew about. In one case, the abductee had gone through hypnosis
>with Budd, and hadn't believed a word she'd come out with. Then
>she picked up The Threat, and -- not even caring yet about the
>apocalyptic message -- just went into shock reading a couple of
>random details that were exactly like what she said when
>hypnotized. She'd been to a support group meeting or two, and at
>least one party with abductees, and had every chance, you'd
>think, to learn many details of abduction stories. But she
>hadn't, partly because abductees, being in most respects normal
>people, don't spend every waking hour talking obsessively about
>their abduction memories.

Greg, I had a full-blown panic attack upon hearing the symptoms
of abduction from a presentation Budd gave in Houston. I learned
those symptoms could be symptoms of many, many things. In my
case, I think they were just that.

>Crucial focus for those evaluating abduction research -- the
>very early days of abduction investigation, when hardly anyone
>knew the familiar story, and it's harder to claim that abductees
>were influenced by the media or other abductees.

I think this will be very difficult, but not impossible. It will
take the cooperation of several abduction researchers.

>Important area for current investigation (I'm working on this):
>Dave Jacobs' claim that abductees always put certain seemingly
>random -- and obscure -- details in the same order. Dave has all
>his hypnotic sessions transcribed, and so his claim, if it's
>correct, ought to be possible for him to document.

I'd be curious about how many details were different.
Good luck with your work.

Rebecca







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 31

                    Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality

From: Rebecca <xiannekei@yahoo.com>
Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 09:21:04 -0800 (PST)
Fwd Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 21:31:45 -0500
Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality

>Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 19:19:32 -0500
>From: Peter Brookesmith Mendoza <DarkSecretPB@compuserve.com>
>Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality
>To: <updates@globalserve.net>

>Rebecca (hi sunbeam!) quoted Greg--

Hey Duke! Long time, no hear! Hope things are great in the
Dukedom!!

>>I'm just guessing here, but perhaps Brookesmith mentions
>>something similar in his abduction book? Doesn't he interview
>>Betty Hill who says something about abductees getting together
>>at group meeting and comparing notes?

>This is certainly in the Fortean Times version of my evening
>with Betty. The interview is available on the FT website. I
>can't remember if it's in the book.

I can't remember that either, but I'll have a look.

[...]

>I might as well say there was an awful lot of stuff I _had_
>researched that didn't get in the book either, simply for lack
>of space, let alone time. A whole chapter, not to say another
>book, could have been written on memory, and it would have
>included Rebecca's factitious memory "implanted" (ho ho) by a
>certain well-known abduction researcher, and its details. (Ed
>Bullard is working on a major treatment of memory in this
>connection, and whichever way his opinion falls his paper will
>be a gem and his research comprehensive, so I don't feel too
>much was lost!)

I have a lot of factitious memories -- life is so much better
that way!

>Among the things I would want to know or see before feeling able
>to evaluate these claims fairly and justly would be: (a) a great
>deal about what happens in Jacobs' support groups, _if_ he runs
>any, (b) full transcripts of all the subjects' hypnotic sessions
>and pre-hypnotic discussions with the investigator (c) even more
>than I already know about terrestrial medical procedures (d) the
>subjects' entire medical history and (e) their knowledge or
>interest in (c).

I think that's a pretty good plan!

>Anyway--all this is a long-winded way of saying that these
>"details" haven't been discussed by skeptics, and by this one in
>particular, for practical reasons rather than lack of scruple or
>inability to cope with the shocking implications, de da. As John
>Rimmer points out in another post, most people even inside
>abductology don't know what these "details" are except in the
>most general terms.

And that is a problem!

Duke, it was great hearing from you. Please don't stay away, as
I miss your wit and wisdom.

Rebecca







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 31

               MAGONIA Monthly Supplement No. 11 January 1999

From: Mark Pilkington <m.pilkington@virgin.net>
Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 18:35:24 +0000
Fwd Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 21:37:24 -0500
Subject: MAGONIA Monthly Supplement No. 11  January 1999

MAGONIA Monthly Supplement
(or the supplement formerly known as ETH Bulletin)

Interpreting contemporary vision and belief

----------------------------------------------------------------

Editor: JOHN HARNEY
         No. 11  January 1999
=======================================================

EDITORIAL

Magonia is a subscription magazine which appears only every
three months. This supplement is freely available on the
Internet and, being monthly, can be more up to date and provide
quicker reactions to events. This publication continues the
series started with ETH Bulletin and now deals with any of the
topics discussed in Magonia, instead of being exclusively
concerned with the evidence for the ETH.

Readers who do not have access to the Internet may write to the
editor requesting printed copies. There is no charge for this
service.

________________________________________________________________


THE FITZGERALD REPORT

UFO researcher Robert J. Durant (email: 70232.17@compuserve.com)
has sent me a copy of a new edition of a report originally
produced in 1959 about a sighting at Sheffield Lake, Ohio. (1)
Dr Menzel considered it sufficiently important to devote 10
pages to it in one of his books. (2) Readers of the Report are
invited to compare it with Menzel's account. So here goes. At
about 3 a.m. on the morning of 21 September 1958, Mrs William
Fitzgerald was lying in bed at her home in Sheffield Lake, Ohio,
when she noticed that the room was illuminated. She stood on the
bed, pulled back the curtain and looked out of the window. She
saw an object directly across from her which looked like a disc
with a hump in the middle. The object appeared to be of a dull
aluminium colour and was about five feet off the ground. She
estimated the size of the object as being 20 to 22 feet in
diameter and about 6 feet high.

The object moved north across the lawn, gradually losing
altitude until it was about 50 feet away and one foot off the
ground. When it stopped moving, smoke billowed around it. The
smoke came from openings in the rim, each of which contained
about seven pipes. During the time it was visible the object
made a noise like "a jet engine warming up".

It is generally agreed that it was cloudy at the time of the
sighting, but there is disagreement as to whether it was or was
not raining.

Mrs Fitzgerald's son, aged ten, also saw the object, his attention being
drawn by the light shining into his bedroom.

This case generated intense controversy, centred on questions as
to the accuracy of the witnesses' descriptions and possible
explanations. Two Project Blue Book sergeants visited Mrs
Fitzgerald to investigate the report. It was said that the light
that attracted Mrs Fitzgerald's attention was a spotlight on a
Coastguard vessel on nearby Lake Erie; there were other lighting
effects from a train which was said to have passed the house at
the time of the sighting; and the weather at the time of the
incident was a misty rain with haze and smoke. The investigators
concluded that " . . . the combination of moving lights, noise
of the train and prevailing weather account for the illusion
experienced by Mrs Fitzgerald". Mrs Fitzgerald's description of
the UFO and its manoeuvres was fairly detailed, so it is
difficult to see how she could have been so badly mistaken in
her interpretation of what she saw. Much of the controversy
centres on the fact that there were two main investigations of
the incident, one by Project Blue Book and the other by a local
UFO research group. The UFO group accused the Blue Book
sergeants of carrying out an amateurish investigation and
reaching a conclusion not in accordance with the facts. In the
new edition of their report, Robert Durant goes even further. He
was present when the Air Force sergeants interviewed Mrs
Fitzgerald, and he says that one of them was drunk.

According to Dr Menzel, Mrs Fitzgerald had prepared a coherent
account of the UFO sighting with the aid of the local UFO group.
Regarding the interview with the sergeants, Menzel alleges:

"To the amazement of the sergeants, Mr C [Robert Durant] seemed
to assume that he was in charge of the interview, answered the
questions put to Mrs Fitzgerald, and continually interrupted
with questions and statements of his own. After half an hour of
this frustrating procedure, Sergeant A led Mr C out into the
yard. In the house, Sergeant B resumed the inquiry and filled
out the official report form."

Durant's version of this episode is rather different. He writes:
"For the record, I was "Mr C". I did not answer questions put to
Mrs Fitzgerald. A frustrated Sergeant A did not lead me out into
the yard. It was I who, in my frustration, led him into the yard
when it appeared that neither investigator had the slightest
interest in looking at the place where the witnesses saw the
object.

"For the record, the Sergeant who accompanied me into the yard
was plainly intoxicated and reeked of alcohol. We agonized about
making an issue of it, or reporting it to the Air Force, but
decided it was not the gentlemanly thing to do. (I am no longer
feeling very gentlemanly about any of this.)" According to The
Fitzgerald Report, a drawing of an object very similar to the
one seen by Mrs Fitzgerald appears in Project Blue Book Special
Report No. 14, (3) thus tending to confirm the authenticity of
the sighting. Menzel, of course, has a different interpretation.
He alleges that members of the UFO group had shown her the
sketch in the Blue Book report, before she prepared her drawing,
assisted by an artist. (The Blue Book sketch is the one in the
report marked Case VIII, Serial 0576.00.) It is very similar to
the Fitzgerald sketch.

Unfortunately, Durant is unable to remember whether or not Mrs
Fitzgerald was shown a copy of the Blue Book report at any stage
of the investigation. Also, Menzel does not say who told him
that the ufologists showed her the sketch in the report.

There is also much disagreement over the theory that the smoke
seen by Mrs Fitzgerald came not from the flying saucer but from
a steelworks about one and a half wiles south-west of her house.
The ufologists say that the wind at the time was from the
north-east, basing this assertion on a statement by a Coast
Guard man mentioning "the sea condition out of the northeast".
However, this could refer to the swell generated by the wind on
some distant part of Lake Erie. The weather reports from
Cleveland give the wind direction as SW or SSW, as Menzel notes
in his book. Menzel alleges that this meant that the smoke
reported by Mrs Fitzgerald came from the steelworks. This seems
reasonable until you start to think about it. A plume of smoke
comes from a steelworks chimney, pours down to the ground and,
without dispersing, snakes along the ground for one and a half
miles until it reaches the Fitzgeralds' back yard. It doesn't
seem likely, and I have never seen smoke from factory chimneys
behaving in such a strange manner. It seems to be agreed that
the air was smoky and misty, but the UFO was only a few feet
from the witness, and it seems to me that it is necessary to
look for some other explanation if one wants to regard the
sighting as being satisfactorily explained.

Menzel explains the noise heard by Mrs Fitzgerald as the sound
of a train passing the house about 100 yards away, although she
says in her statement to the local UFO group: "The noise was
unlike any I have ever heard made by the trains which run
nearby."

Menzel ends his account by quoting from a letter from astronomer
Dr Thornton Page to a member of the UFO group in which he
writes: "As a scientist I am interested in unexplained
phenomena, but the one or ones responsible for Mrs Fitzgerald's
sighting is or are undoubtedly highly complex. It is just as
false to say simply that she saw a flying saucer 20 feet in
diameter as it is to say that she saw nothing, or that she
simply saw the train headlight on a mist." Page states that if
ufologists insist that she saw a flying saucer, the onus is on
them to prove that there is no other explanation of what was
seen and heard.

As this incident happened such a long time ago, and in view of
the disagreements between official and private investigators, it
is unlikely that any general agreement will be reached as to its
explanation. It could perhaps be useful, though, to compare the
case with other, similar reports.

References

1. Durant, Robert J. The Fitzgerald Report, MidOhio Research
Associates Inc., Box 162, 5837 Karric Square Drive, Dublin, Ohio
43016, 1998

2. Menzel, Donald H. and Boyd, Lyle G. The World of Flying
Saucers, Doubleday & Company, New York, 1963, 279-288

3. Air Technical Intelligence Center, Wright-Patterson Air Force
Base, Ohio. Project Blue Book Special Report No. 14, 1955

HUDSON VALLEY UFOS

Philip Klass has kindly sent me some articles and press cuttings
about the Hudson Valley UFO reports and this has prompted me to
take a closer look at them. It is now becoming clear to me that
the reason why ETH ufologists are not very interested in these
sightings is that they already know the explanation, and it has
nothing to do with alien spacecraft.

The problem for ETHers is that it was quickly established that
there were many amateur pilots in the Hudson Valley area, and
that some of them had got together to practice formation flying
at night. Their skills improved with practice and the number of
aircraft in the formations increased so that they presented an
impressive sight in the night sky.

Some of the UFO reports generated by these flying displays were
quite impressive and contained obvious exaggerations and
inaccuracies. Instead of conducting rigorous and critical
analyses of these reports, the ufologists attempted to preserve
the mystery by asserting that, while some of the sightings were
of light aircraft in formation, others were genuine UFOs. They
were helped in this by some witnesses who claimed that they
could easily tell the difference.

It is important to examine these reports to see how witnesses
and ufologists claim to distinguish between aircraft and "real"
UFOs. We must bear in mind that, as the objects were seen by
hundreds of witnesses, there was do doubt as to their reality.
This reminds us of Jenny Randles's finding that UFOs seen by
many witnesses invariably turn out, on investigation, to be IFOs
(identified flying objects).

One of the main distinctions between the aircraft and the UFOs
was gleefully seized on by the ufologists. The UFOs often
hovered silently over the witnesses. Light aircraft cannot hover
and are not silent, therefore they must have been genuine UFOs.
It does not seem to occur to them that if the aircraft were much
higher than the witnesses thought they were, and if they were
moving towards them, against the wind, then they could indeed
appear to be hovering silently.

The authors of Night Siege (1) attempt to make many of the
sightings seem impressive by taking the witnesses' descriptions
as being accurate. They fail to take account of the fact that if
you fail to identify an object in the sky, then you have no way
of estimating how far away it is or how big it is.      An
interesting feature of some of the reports is the irrational
behaviour of witnesses in attempting to chase the objects in
their cars. The car chase is a familiar feature of many action
films, but this consists of one car chasing another. A car
attempting to chase an aircraft, or any other airborne object,
is an obvious absurdity. Yet the UFO literature contains many
reports of cars chasing things in the sky, usually Venus. A
curious feature of these accounts is that investigators rarely
comment on the irrationality of such behaviour. A notable
exception is Allan Hendry, one of the few ufologists who does
not obviously have a few screws loose, who remarked: "What
amazes me is that people are surprised when they are incapable
of chasing after an airplane in their car." (2)

The main value of the Hudson Valley sightings is that they
provide the opportunity for studying the development of the UFO
myth in a limited area, over a limited time period. The stimulus
which started and sustained the reports is known, and a number
of witnesses have been repeatedly interviewed and the
development of their experiences and beliefs regarding UFOs has
been recorded. Some have claimed repeated sightings, and even
abductions. The large collection of reports from this area
provides a good opportunity for those with the necessary
abilities and resources to devise a fairly precise version of
the psychosocial hypothesis. However, the desire of most
American ufologists to believe in ETs is so strong that this is
unlikely to happen.


References 1. Hynek, J. Allen, Imbrogno, Philip J. and Pratt,
Bob. Night Siege: The Hudson Valley UFO Sightings, Llewellyn
Publications, St Paul, Minnesota, 1998

2. Hendry, Allan. The UFO Handbook, Sphere Books, London, 1980,
39


SATANISM UPDATE

Until shortly before his untimely death in January 1996, Roger
Sandell provided information for readers of Magonia on the
Satanic child abuse scare in Britain. However, he was unable to
obtain details of a particularly disturbing case in Pembroke,
south Wales. There was very little about it in the papers,
mainly because it resulted in a trial which lasted for seven
months, and the accused and the alleged victims could not be
named for legal reasons. Now, journalist Byron Rogers, who comes
from that part of the country, has conducted an investigation
and published his findings in The Sunday Telegraph (10 January
1999).

The story began in May 1991 when a local boy, aged nine, already
in care for a year, accused his father of sexually abusing him.
He was then subjected to "prolonged counselling by social
workers", as a result of which he told stories of orgies in
barns, where men in gowns fired shotguns into the roof to ensure
the silence of the children who were being abused. Goats had
been ritually slaughtered in the local cemetary. The boy went on
to accuse his mother and other local adults.

In June 1992 a 14-year old girl ran away from home and accused
her father of abusing her. The man pleaded guilty and was
sentenced to 7 years imprisonment. The men who had been arrested
following the allegations made by the boy had been freed without
charge, but the girl also started telling fantastic tales when
"counselled" by the social workers, with the result that
eighteen children from nine families were taken into care and
eleven men and two women were arrested. Six of them were
convicted of child abuse, in spite of the fact that some of the
prosecution witnesses recanted their statements. One of them
said that she had been told what to say by social workers, who
threatened her that if she did not say what they wanted her to
say she would never see her children again.

On appeal, only one of the six was successful, in spite of the
dubious evidence and the fact that few local people believe
there to have been any substance in the accusations.

________________________________________________________________


ODDS AND ENDS =================================

Chthonic fantasies. For several years some British ufologists
have been aping their American colleagues by indulging in
fantasies about secret underground bases - some of which might
even conceal aliens or crashed saucers, who knows? The custom
over here is to return to this topic whenever there is a
shortage of UFO reports; if you see nothing in the sky then look
underground. Of course, there are real underground bases and
there has been a lot of rubbish written about the one near RAF
Rudloe Manor, a place with which ETH ufologists are obsessed.
This base, intended to be a seat of government in the event of
nuclear attack, has recently been opened to the media and
pictures of it have appeared in the press and on television. The
fantasy about the underground railway from Rudloe Manor to
Downing Street probably arises from the fact that the Box Hill
railway tunnel is adjacent to the base. A number of similar
bases have already been opened to the public. At this rate there
will soon be nothing left for the fruitcake tendency to
fantasise about.

The maniac on the platform. Magonia No. 19 (May 1985) contained
an article by Michael Goss entitled "The Maniac on the
Platform". This was inspired by a conversation he heard in the
London Underground about a maniac who pushes young women under
trains. He discussed the folkloric implications of this story
and concluded, " . . . I don't think I want to believe in him. I
prefer him as foaflore . . . " Unfortunately, it wasn't very
long after this article appeared that a maniac pushed a woman in
front of a train at Wimbledon station (south-west London). There
have been similar incidents since. The latest incident, this
time on the New York subway, occurred on 3 January when a young
woman was decapitated by a train after being pushed off the
platform at 23rd Street station by a man with a long history of
mental illness. (The Daily Telegraph, 6 January 1999)


UFOtrash. Each member of the Magonia editorial team is equipped
with a delicate scientific instrument, known as a Crap Detector.
I should have left mine switched off when I tuned in to Channel
5 on 4 January to watch Stranger than Fiction: The Great UFO
Conspiracy. No sooner had the familiar and, er, distinctive,
features of Stanton Friedman appeared, and before he even opened
his mouth, my Crap Detector indicator showed "Overload" and its
chips were fried, or whatever the technical term is. The other
persons talking utter garbage in this programme were Wendelle
Stevens, Bruce Maccabee, Nick Pope, Timothy Good and Robert
Oechsler. Need I say more?

________________________________________________________________
MAGONIA Monthly Supplement is available on the Magonia web site,
with printed copies sent to the favoured few. Please send all
articles, letters, etc. direct to the Editor: John Harney, 27
Enid Wood House, High Street, Bracknell, Berkshire RG12 1LN  UK

=======================================================

Mark Pilkington
------------------------------------------------
Magonia Online

http://www.magonia.demon.co.uk

"Mutated beaver's pretty good.
But mutated beavers that can telepath and teleport are really something."





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 31

                        Re: 'Apocalypse Pretty Soon'

From: "Jerome Clark" <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
Date: Sun, 31 Jan 99 13:45:32 PST
Fwd Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 21:41:47 -0500
Subject: Re: 'Apocalypse Pretty Soon'


>Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 21:45:54 -0600 (CST)
>From: Bob Soetebier <bikebob@mo.net>
>To: UFO UpDates <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: 'Apocalypse Pretty Soon'

>>From: Alex Heard <aheard@wired.com>
>>Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 12:40:31 -0800
>>Fwd Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 16:53:43 -0500
>>Subject: 'Apocalypse Pretty Soon'

>>This is a general message to participants in this forum. My name
>>is Alex Heard; Im an editor at Wired magazine and the author of
>>Apocalypse Pretty Soon, a new book about American subcultures at
>>the turn of the millennium.

I've known Alex Heard for about 10 years and had been reading
him years before that, when he regularly contributed satirical
pieces to The New Republic and the Washington Post Magazine.  I
think there's no doubt that his book will be an excellent one,
and I look forward to reading it.

Jerry Clark






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 31

                         Re: Apocalypse Pretty Soon

From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net>
Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 17:34:43 -0800
Fwd Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 21:44:18 -0500
Subject: Re: Apocalypse Pretty Soon


>Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 18:08:43 -0800
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Alex Heard <aheard@wired.com>
>Re: Apocalypse Pretty Soon

>>From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>Subject: Apocalypse Pretty Soon

>>Dear Alex Heard:

>>Any treatment of the UFO topic which touches upon Dr. Steven
>>Greer and/or the Unarius Society would require a great sense of
>>humor indeed.

>>I would have titled the book " Apocalypse any time now, maybe in
>>two or three weeks but definitely before the second coming of
>>Christ .."  but that's a publishing issue.

>>I am addicted to long book titles.

>>There may be some people who take Unarius or Greer seriously,
>>but what is to be gained from that?

>>The Art Bell forum, quite literally many millions in many
>>countries, is more than an adequate forum for your book.

>>This "forum" doesn't even accept Mastercard or Visa.

>>If you want to study millenium nut cases, there are literally
>>hundreds of other places to go.

>>Perhaps you got here by accident.

>Hmmm, I guess my wording wasn't clear enough.   Greer gets
>throughly trashed. I'm a former editor for the New York Times
>magazine, not a Greer buff.

>The Unarius chapter is a more sympathetic, but it's basically a
>study of fairly dark and sad patterns behind the scenes in a
>"zany" UFO cult.


Dear Alex:

Perhaps I misunderstood you.    If so, I apologize.

The title " Apocalypse Pretty Soon " should have
been the tip-off,  clearly tongue in cheek.

While the zanier elements in these realms need a
good airing out,  I hope the more serious and
careful studies are not tarred with the same brush.

Best wishes

-  Larry Hatch

=  =  =  =  =





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Jan > Jan 31

                          Re: Abduction Hypotheses

From: Sean Jones <tedric@tedric.demon.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 20:32:21 +0000
Fwd Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 21:46:58 -0500
Subject: Re: Abduction Hypotheses


>From: John W. Ratcliff <jratcliff@worldnet.att.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: Abduction Hypotheses
>Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 18:14:45 -0600

>>>11) Astral travel/ OOBE's.

<snip>

>You got some more models, theories, ideas, I'd love to hear
>them. Meanwhile, shouldn't an 'explanation' at least pass muster
>with the experiencer before we leave the table satisfied we have
>an answer?


John

I agree, whatever theory put forward should be examined by those
who experience it. I would also like to mention that I have
investigated a few alleged abduction cases. I say alleged
because some of them where not in my opinion _actual_
abductions.

One particular case I investigated a while back involved a
married couple. They where both psychically "attuned" to each
other and could tell when one was nearby, even though sight was
not possible. This was demonstrated to me.

On several occasions the man awoke in the middle of the night
and claimed that his wife's _presence_ had left and was not
there next to him in bed, he also said that he could not move to
look to actually see if she was there or not, he just could not
feel her presence. After I interviewed both of them I surmised,
(but of course could not prove) that the women was having
spontaneous OOBE's and when the husband woke up and did not feel
her psychic presence there he went into some kind of mild shock
which did not allow him to move his head to actually look.

The young lady in question did not for one instant believe that
she was being abducted, whilst the husband, an ardent ufo buff,
was positive that she was being abducted. She had no memories,
no "missing time", nothing. My conclusion was therefore held
basic muster from the experiencer's husband and his wife, he
might not have agreed with it but he did agree that it was more
likely.

Did I leave the table satisfied I had an answer, yes. Was I
upset that it wasn't a _real_ abduction, no. Because I wouldn't
wish that on anyone.

--

    In an infinite universe infinitely anything is possible.
                       Sean Jones
 Homepage--http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Zone/1745/index.htm
            UFO page--http://www.tedric.demon.co.uk/