The UFO UpDates Archive Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb UFO UpDates Mailing List Feb 1999 Feb 1: Search For Underground Alien Life - Stig Agermose [115] Meteoritologist Researches Decades Old Fireball - Stig Agermose [166] Ohio Engineer Pioneered SETI Search For Laser - Stig Agermose [67] Re: Response To Concerns Over IUFOMRC In Roswell - Bob Bush [132] Re: BWW Media Alert 19990131 - Buifo Calvin [105] Re: Greek Legend Becoming Fact: Charon Prime Target - Stig Agermose [182] Re: Greek Legend Becoming Fact: Charon Prime Target - Stig Agermose [182] NASA's Plans In Search For Alien Life - Stig Agermose [107] Astronomers Seek Another Earth - Stig Agermose [107] Who Would Joe Firmage Thank? - Sue Kovios [112] UFO Video Footage - Site - Ndunlks@aol.com [5] Response To Concerns Over IUFOMRC In Roswell - Bob Bush [132] Betty Hill 'Coming In For A Landing' - Stig Agermose [164] Re: Apocalypse Pretty Soon - Larry Hatch [3] Premature Birth & Abduction? - Leanne Martin [8] Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality - Peter Brookesmith Mendoza [79] The Alien Abduction Paradigm - Judith Dale [45] Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality - John W. Ratcliff [7] Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality - Bill Weber [13] Re: Abduction The Issue Of Reality - Jim Mortellaro [58] Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality - Greg Sandow [33] Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality - Greg Sandow [15] Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality - Greg Sandow [13] Re: Who Would Joe Firmage Thank? - Sue Kovios [10] Re: MAGONIA Monthly Supplement No. 11 January 1999 - Tim Matthews [33] Photography Contract Of The Future - Bob Shell [4] Re: 'Sorry, We'll Be Late' - Brian Straight [11] Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality - Jerome Clark [15] Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality - Jerome Clark [14] Re: Apocalypse Pretty Soon - Alex Heard [7] Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality - Jerome Clark [8] -=[For The Record]=- Roswell UFO Museum and - Wendy Connors [191] UFO ROUNDUP Volume 4 Number 5 - UFO UpDates - Toronto [400] Re: Apocalypse Pretty Soon - Jerome Clark [12] Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality - Jim Mortellaro [31] Feb 2: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality - Dennis Stacy [25] Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality - John Velez [76] HOT GOSSIP UK - FEB 1999 - Georgina Bruni [166] Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality - Peter Brookesmith Mendoza [32] Unexplained Animal Death In Utah '98 - UFO UpDates - Toronto [23] Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality - Peter Brookesmith Mendoza [50] Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality - Peter Brookesmith Mendoza [25] Topic Drift - Sean Jones [14] Serious UFO Study Shown on UK TV - Ian Darlington - C.U.F.O.R.G. [57] Skywatchers Newsletter --Issue 2, Part 1 - Ian Darlington - CUFORG [469] CUFORG: Skywatchers Newsletter --Issue 2, Part 2 - Ian Darlington CUFORG [511] -=[For The Record]=- Re: Roswell UFO Museum and - Wendy Connors [100] CUFORG: Skywatchers Newsletter --Issue 2, Part 3 - Ian Darlington CUFORG [376] 08-20-96: MJ12 - An Estimate of the Situation - Ed Stewart [125] Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality - Dennis Stacy [15] Nick Pope's Weird World - Georgina Bruni [256] Re: Apocalypse Pretty Soon - Bruce Maccabee [12] Re: MAGONIA Monthly Supplement No. 11 January 1999 - Bruce Maccabee [5] Open Letter: MJ-12 & Dr. Wood - Stig Agermose [163] Re: UFO ROUNDUP Volume 4 Number 5 - Georgina Bruni [46] Re: Premature Birth & Abduction? - Greg Sandow [8] Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality - Greg Sandow [11] Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality - Greg Sandow [20] Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality - Jerome Clark [25] Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality - Terry Blanton [8] Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality - Kevin Randle [19] Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality - Brian Cuthbertson [13] Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality - John Velez [22] Re: FOIA on SOM 1-01 - Jan Aldrich [42] Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Breast Feeding Reality - Jim Mortellaro [38] Gulf Sighting Report - U.S. Navy Witness - Ben Field [50] Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality - Greg Sandow [17] Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality - Greg Sandow [1] Re: Premature Birth & Abduction? - Judith Dale [54] Re: Apocalypse Pretty Soon - Judith Dale [6] Re: Apocalypse Pretty Soon - Alfred Lehmberg [19] Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality - Peter Brookesmith Mendoza [90] On Eyewitness Testimony - Ed Stewart [184] Feb 3: FOIA on SOM 1-01 - Jan Aldrich [42] Re: 25 Rules of Disinformation - Gary [829] Re: Premature Birth & Abduction? - Jim Mortellaro [5] Re: 'Apocalypse Pretty Soon' - Jim Mortellaro [10] Re: 8/27/96 Re: MJ-12 Document - Ed Stewart [189] Re: 8/27/96 Re: MJ-12 Document - Ed Stewart [71] Re: - Joe Firmage [6] Re: FOIA on SOM 1-01 - Stan Friedman [6] Mig-29 SMT Has Plasma Stealth System - Stig Agermose [15] Re: 08-20-96: MJ12 - An Estimate of the Situation - Stan Friedman [13] Re: RAMS - Cleanup The Corners - Michael Christol [19] Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality - Peter Brookesmith Mendoza [21] Re: Premature Birth & Abduction? - Mendoza [26] Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality - Mendoza [38] Re: Gulf Sighting Report - U.S. Navy Witness - David Rudiak [31] Spectacular UK Video Of Triangle (Jan. 20 1999) - Stig Agermose [17] Pulsar Newsletter - Issue No. 3 - James Easton [573] Re: Topic Drift - Greg St. Pierre [4] Re: Gulf Sighting Report - U.S. Navy Witness - GT McCoy [32] DISPATCH # 115 -- the weekly newsletter of - ParaScope@AOL.COM [102] Re: Premature Birth & Abduction? - Greg Sandow [9] Re: Premature Birth & Abduction? - Leanne Martin [7] Re: On Eyewitness Testimony - Greg Sandow [14] Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality - Leanne Martin [4] Re: FOIA on SOM 1-01 - Scott Hale [12] Re: Topic Drift - Larry Hatch [15] Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality - John Velez [155] Dr. Richard Haines' New CE-5 Book - Larry Hatch [37] CUFORG Web Site Updated - Ian Darlington - CUFORG [16] Media Alert - Rods TLC on Tonight - Terry Blanton [8] Issue #3 of Greenwood's UHR On-line - Jim Klotz [26] Re: Apocalypse Pretty Soon - Bruce Maccabee [4] Re: Open Letter: MJ-12 & Dr. Wood - Bruce Maccabee [16] Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality - Greg Sandow [43] UPN Thursday - Drama On Roswell Crash - Stig Agermose [29] Space Mirror To Light Up Europe & North Africa - Stig Agermose [38] Re: 'Apocalypse Pretty Soon' - Alex Heard [13] Russian Space Mirror Experiment Schedule - Stig Agermose [99] Re: RAMS - Cleanup The Corners - Robert A.M. Stephens [12] Re: Apocalypse Pretty Soon - John Rimmer [6] Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality - Jerome Clark [13] Re: Premature Birth & Abduction? - Greg Sandow [67] Re: 8/27/96 Re: MJ-12 Document - Stan Friedman [44] Re: RAMS - Cleanup The Corners - Terry Blanton [5] Re: Deficiency In SETI's Drake's Equation - David Rudiak [80] Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality - Greg Sandow [40] Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality - Greg Sandow [39] Re: Nick Pope's Weird World - Stan Friedman [11] Joe Firmage on T.V. - Leanne Martin [16] Re: Premature Birth & Abduction? - Leanne Martin [8] Re: Mig-29 SMT Has Plasma Stealth System - Leanne Martin [4] Re: On Eyewitness Testimony - Sharon Kardol [7] Re: Apocalypse Pretty Soon - Sharon Kardol [4] Re: 'Word' Is Beginning To Get Out... - Sue Kovios [207] Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality - Peter Brookesmith Mendoza [10] Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality - Peter Brookesmith Mendoza [39] Feb 4: Re: Premature Birth & Abduction? - Peter Brookesmith Mendoza [31] Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality - Brian Cuthbertson [16] Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality - Brian Cuthbertson [23] Re: RAMS - Cleanup The Corners - Terry Blanton [6] Re: Premature Birth & Abduction? - Judith Dale [29] Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality - Peter Brookesmith Mendoza [61] Re: RAMS - Cleanup The Corners - Michael Christol [4] Re: Apocalypse Pretty Soon - Sue Kovios [8] The Millennium Report, February 1, 1999 - Paul Anderson - TMP / CPR-Canada [111] Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality - Rebecca Keith [6] Re: RAMS - Cleanup The Corners - Michael Christol [12] Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality - Rebecca Keith [17] Re: 8/27/96 Re: MJ-12 Document - Robert Todd [35] Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality - Rebecca Keith [8] Re: Mig-29 SMT Has Plasma Stealth System - Stig Agermose [4] Re: Premature Birth & Abduction? - Sharon Kardol [14] Re: 8/27/96 Re: MJ-12 Document - Ed Stewart [172] Re: Gulf Sighting Report - U.S. Navy Witness - Leanne Martin [12] Re: Premature Birth & Abduction? - Greg Sandow [5] Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality - Greg Sandow [3] Re: Open Letter: MJ-12 & Dr. Wood - Stan Friedman [6] X-33 Metallic Heat Shield 'Ready For Flight' - NASANews@hq.nasa.gov [87] Re: Topic Drift - Larry Hatch [23] Re: Media Alert - Rods TLC on Tonight - Jim Mortellaro [16] Re: 'Apocalypse Pretty Soon' - Jim Mortellaro [24] Re: Premature Birth & Abduction? - Brian Straight [33] Re: Premature Birth & Abduction? - Brian Straight [33] Re: Open Letter: MJ-12 & Dr. Wood - Rebecca Keith [9] Re: RAMS - Cleanup The Corners - Terry Blanton [3] New Image On RPIT Site - Neil Morris [28] Re: Premature Birth & Abduction? - Greg Sandow [9] Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality - Greg Sandow [14] Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality - John Velez [12] Re: Premature Birth & Abduction? - Greg Sandow [5] Mystery Skycrash UK Isle of Lewis? - David Clarke [11] Re: RAMS - Cleanup The Corners - Roger R. Prokic [5] Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality - Leanne Martin [11] Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality - Peter Brookesmith Mendoza [8] Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality - Peter Brookesmith Mendoza [189] Re: Premature Birth & Abduction? - Leanne Martin [33] Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality - Leanne Martin [13] Re: Premature Birth & Abduction? - Tim D. Brigham [50] Feb 5: Release From Nick Redfern - Matthew Williams [103] US Executive Order on 'Alien Species' 02-03-99 - Frances Emma Barwood [244] Re: Premature Birth & Abduction? - Jerome Clark [14] Re: Open Letter: MJ-12 & Dr. Wood - Stan Friedman [22] Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality - Brian Cuthbertson [4] Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality - Rebecca Keith [14] Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality - Jerome Clark [31] Re: Area 51 - The Alien Interview - James Easton [55] Re: Abduction Hypotheses - James Easton [39] Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality - Greg Sandow [61] Re: RAMS - Cleanup The Corners - Michael Christol [3] Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality - Judith Dale [4] Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality - Brian Cuthbertson [15] Re: Premature Birth & Abduction? - Judith Dale [10] Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality - Brian Cuthbertson [16] Re: Premature Birth & Abduction? - Leanne Martin [25] Re: 'Apocalypse Pretty Soon' - Mark Cashman [9] Re: Premature Birth & Abduction? - Jsmortell@aol.com [14] Re: Premature Birth & Abduction? - Judith Dale [26] Re: RAMS - Cleanup The Corners - Robert A.M. Stephens [11] Re: RAMS - Cleanup The Corners - Terry Blanton [3] Re: Open Letter: MJ-12 & Dr. Wood - Rebecca Keith [12] Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality - Kevin Randle [37] Re: Premature Birth & Abduction? - Kevin Randle [12] Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality - Greg Sandow [57] Re: Premature Birth & Abduction? - Sharon Kardol [15] Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality - Steven Kaeser [21] Re: Area 51 - The Alien Interview - Steven Kaeser [33] Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality - Rebecca Keith [5] Re: Premature Birth & Abduction? - Jim Mortellaro [31] Feb 6: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality - Mark Cashman [78] Re: Mystery Skycrash UK Isle of Lewis? - Dave Ledger [24] Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality - Mendoza [131] Re: Premature Birth & Abduction? - Mendoza [33] Re: RAMS - Cleanup The Corners - Michael Christol [19] Re: Premature Birth & Abduction? - Greg Sandow [38] Re: RAMS - Cleanup The Corners - Michael Christol [6] Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality - Greg Sandow [29] Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality - Dennis Stacy [19] Firsts On NBC's 'Confirmation' - Stig Agermose [23] Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality - Leanne Martin [43] Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality - Kevin Randle [63] Alfred's Odd Ode #292 - Alfred Lehmberg [86] Re: FOIA on SOM 1-01 - Gildas Bourdais [77] Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality - Greg Sandow [22] Ufology II: Some Final Answers - On Disc - Francis Ridge [54] What's New At Magonia - Mark Pilkington [25] Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality - Leanne Martin [83] UFO 30 miles NNW of Philadelphia, Pa. - Mark Isganitis [18] Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality - Jim Mortellaro [59] Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality - Leanne Martin [3] Re: Premature Birth & Abduction? - Leanne Martin [5] Re: Premature Birth & Abduction? - Leanne Martin [6] Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality - Jerome Clark [12] Re: Firsts On NBC's 'Confirmation' - Jim Mortellaro [14] Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality - Greg Sandow [202] Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality - Serge Salvaille [79] Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality - Kevin Randle [23] Re: 8/27/96 Re: MJ-12 Document - Stan Friedman [64] Re: Ufology II: Some Final Answers - On Disc - Larry Hatch [7] Re: Open Letter: MJ-12 & Dr. Wood - Ed Stewart [66] Re: Who Knew? - Stephen Miles Lewois [50] Filer's Files #5-1999 - UFO UpDates - Toronto [327] Re: The Order Of the Solar Temple - Stephen Miles Lewis [9] Feb 7: Nick Pope exposed in The Sunday Times - Tim Matthews [39] Budd Hopkins on Art Bells' Dreamland Tonight - John Velez [16] Sighting - St Kilda Beach, Melbourne - Larry Clark [26] Conference 27 Feb in the UK - Sean Jones [41] Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality - Kevin Randle [53] Robert Todd On MJ-12 [was: Open Letter: MJ-12 & - Robert Todd [131] On Mundell's Video + Link To Windows AVI File - Stig Agermose k [35] Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality - Greg Sandow [3] Re: Premature Birth & Abduction? - Greg Sandow [11] Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality - Greg Sandow [116] Craft Sweeps Sky For Solar System's History - Stig Agermose [102] Re: 8/27/96 MJ-12 Document - Robert Todd [106] The Sheffield Incident & Things - Max Burns [132] Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality - Rebecca [15] Re: RAMS - Cleanup The Corners - Mark Dean [6] E.T. in Quarantine - Stig Agermose [143] Greatest Intelligence Scam Of The Century? - Stig Agermose [344] Re: RAMS - Cleanup The Corners - Roger R. Prokic [7] Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality - Mark Cashman [118] Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality - Mark Cashman [86] BWW Media Alert 19990207 - BufoCalvin@aol.com [101] Re: Robert Todd On MJ-12 - Alfred Lehmberg [35] MJ-12 Fiasco - Just Cause [Part 1] #13 (9/1987) - Ed Stewart [152] MJ-12 Fiasco - Just Cause [Part 2] #13 (9/1987) - Ed Stewart [112] MJ-12 Fiasco - Just Cause [Part 3] #13 (9/1987) - Ed Stewart [165] MJ-12 Fiasco - Just Cause [Part 4] #13 (9/1987) - Ed Stewart [30] MJ-12 Fiasco - Just Cause [Part 5] #13 (9/1987) - Ed Stewart [28] MJ-12 Fiasco - Just Cause [Part 6] #13 (9/1987) - Ed Stewart [51] MJ-12 Fiasco - Just Cause [Part 7] #13 (9/1987) - Ed Stewart [82] Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality - Kevin Randle [66] Of Spirits And Wider Reality In Sedona - Stig Agermose [147] Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality - Dennis Stacy [18] Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality - Jerome Clark [23] Re: The Order Of the Solar Temple - Bruno Mancusi [8] Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality - Jerome Clark [15] Follow-Up Image On RPIT Site - Neil Morris [20] Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality - Jim Mortellaro [13] 'Strange Days...Indeed' - Tonight: Ed Stewart - UFO UpDates - Toronto [21] Feb 8: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality - Judith Dale [32] Pope On A Rope - Andy Roberts [31] Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality - Dennis Stacy [85] Re: The Sheffield Incident & Things - Andy Roberts [40] Re: Robert Todd On MJ-12 - Stan Friedman [13] Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality - Jerome Clark [15] Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality - Greg Sandow [49] Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality - Greg Sandow [5] Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality - Greg Sandow [35] Re: Sheffield Incident & Things - David Clarke [107] MAGONIA Monthly Supplement #12 - Mark Pilkington [371] Re: The Sheffield Incident & Things - Roy Hale [7] Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality - John Rimmer [25] Re: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 20:37:51 -0400 - Stan Friedman [66] Abduction Researchers: The Good, the Bad and the - Joseph Polanik [65] Scottish 'Area 51' - Repudiated? - Stig Agermose [176] Re: Abductions and Researcher Bias - Joseph Polanik <jpolanik@mindspring.com [145] Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality - Kevin Randle [102] Re: Nick Pope exposed in The Sunday Times - James Easton [85] Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality - Kevin Randle [8] Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality - Leanne Martin [13] Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality - Leanne Martin [39] Condon Report Now Online - Stig Agermose [40] Re: Texas Sighting On Fox 4 News - Stig Agermose [98] Texas Sighting: Photographer Interviewed - Stig Agermose [122] Sighting Report: Yulara, near Alice Springs NT - Diane Harrison [22] Re: Abduction - Media influence - Dave Baker [55] Re: Robert Todd On MJ-12 - Josh Goldstein [36] Congratulations to Jan Aldrich - Steven Kaeser [10] Congratulations to Jan Aldrich - Steven Kaeser [12] UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 4, Number 6 - John Hayes [346] Re: Cash-Landrum Case - What About Colby? - Stephen Lewis [15] Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality - Jerome Clark [28] Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality - Jerome Clark [8] Re: Pope On A Rope - Jerome Clark [7] Feb 9: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality - Jerome Clark [24] Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality - Dennis Stacy [19] Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality - Dennis Stacy [8] Tim Matthews - Max Burns [38] Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality - Greg Sandow [30] Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality - Greg Sandow [116] 'Sightings' & Firmage - Bell & Hoagland - Stephen Xanthos [51] Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality - Serge Salvaille [24] Y2K and UFOs - Tim D. Brigham [32] The Millennium Report - February 8, 1999 - Paul Anderson - TMP / CPR-Canada [81] Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality - Ted Viens [29] Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality - Jsmortell@aol.com [5] Re: Robert Todd On MJ-12 - Ed Stewart [95] Re: UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 4, Number 6 - John Hayes [4] Mars Probe Ready to Scan Surface - Stig Agermose [36] Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality - Jean-Luc Rivera [21] Re: Sheffield Incident [Pt. 1] - Max Burns [196] Re: Sheffield Incident [Pt. 2] - Max Burns [157] Re: Abductions and Researcher Bias - Geri & Alfred Webre [9] Re: Robert Todd On MJ-12 - Robert Todd [73] Feb 10: Re: What's The Point? - A Rant - Leanne Martin [111] Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality - Leanne Martin [15] Re: Robert Todd On MJ-12 - Stan Friedman [58] Re: Abduction The Issue Of Reality - Leanne Martin [24] Research Query: Abductees - Any Blind Abductees? - Leanne Martin [15] Re: Tim Matthews - Jonathan Dyton [71] Re: Robert Todd On MJ-12 - Alfred Lehmberg [63] Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality - Steven Kaeser [31] Riddle of The Skies: Part 2. - Ian Darlington [85] Tribute To Skynet - Mike Farrell [119] Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality - Kevin Randle [14] Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality - Kevin Randle [7] Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality - Brian Straight [36] Re: Tim Matthews - Tim Matthews [57] Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality - Jerome Clark [13] Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality - Jerome Clark [29] Re: Abductions and Researcher Bias - Jerome Clark [9] Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality - Kevin Randle [11] Re: Pope On A Rope - Andy Roberts [19] The Gesundt Newsletter - All the News that's fit - Jim Mortellaro [47] Nick Pope and UK UFO Magazine - Tim Matthews [24] Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality - Mark Cashman [23] Re: What If? - Kathleen Andersen [66] Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality - Dennis Stacy [41] Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality - Jeff King [29] Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality - Leanne Martin [15] Re: How UFOs Communicate - Terry Blanton [22] Re: Robert Todd On MJ-12 - Stan Friedman [20] Re: Robert Todd On MJ-12 - Ed Stewart [84] Re: Tribute To Skynet - Dan Geib [7] Re: Riddle of The Skies: Part 2 - Tony Spurrier [4] Re: Riddle of The Skies: Part 2 - Jeremy Anderson [35] Re: London (UK) UFO Meeting - John Hayes [21] Looking for Old UFO Books? - Sue Kovios [2] Re: Robert Todd On MJ-12 - Steven Kaeser [15] Re: Y2K and UFOs - Leanne Martin [40] Feb 11: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality - Serge Salvaille [36] Re: 8/27/96 MJ-12 Document - Bohica449@aol.com [149] Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality - Mendoza [43] Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality - Peter Brookesmith Mendoza [43] Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality - Peter Brookesmith Mendoza [29] Re: Robert Todd On MJ-12 - Robert Todd [58] Re: Research Query: Abductees - Any Blind - Rebecca Keith [7] Re: Research Query: Abductees - Any Blind - Sue Kovios [15] Sighting, Toronto - February 3rd 1999 - UFO UpDates - Toronto [45] Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality - Leanne Martin [13] Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality - Greg Sandow [27] Re: Riddle of The Skies: Part 2 - Jeremy Anderson [26] B-CAUS We Worry... - Roger R. Prokic [70] Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality - Greg Sandow [54] Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality - Greg Sandow [34] Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality - Greg Sandow [32] Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality - "Greg Sandow" [5] Re: What If? - Gary Alevy [599] Mysterious Lights Over Western Australia - Stig Agermose [30] UFO-related Issues A First In County Elections - Stig Agermose [92] Re: Y2K and UFOs - Joseph Trainor [76] Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality - Leanne Martin [62] Re: Research Query: Abductees - Any Blind - Leanne Martin [10] Re: Research Query: Abductees - Any Blind - Jean-Luc Rivera [17] Re: Y2K and UFOs - Henny van der Pluijm [15] Re: Riddle of The Skies: Part 2 - Neil Morris [40] Feb 12: Re: Research Query: Abductees - Any Blind - Larry Hatch [13] Re: UFO-related Issues A First In County Elections - Terry Blanton [5] Re: The Sheffield Incident - Martin Jeffrey [43] Re: What If? - Steven Kaeser [11] Re: Y2K and UFOs - Steven Kaeser [20] Re: Research Query: Abductees - Any Blind - Jim Mortellaro [19] Re: Research Query: Abductees - Any Blind - Marc Bell [15] Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality - Mark Cashman [29] Re: Riddle of The Skies: Part 2 - Tony Spurrier [46] Re: Riddle of The Skies: Part 2 - Tony Spurrier [10] Re: Sighting, Toronto - February 3rd 1999 - Mark Cashman [24] CompuServe UFO Forum? - Roy Hale [32] Re: Riddle of The Skies: Part 2 - Tony Spurrier [10] Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality - John Rimmer [17] Re: B-CAUS We Worry... - Geri & Alfred Webre [50] Re: Robert Todd On MJ-12 - Roger Evans [41] Re: What If? - Roger Evans [26] Re: Abductions and Trauma - Sean Liddle [27] Tim Good On IRC Chat - UKUFONW 02-23-99 - United Kingdom UFO Network [54] Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality - Jeff King [57] Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality - Jeff King [80] Re: The Sheffield Incident - UFO UpDates - Toronto [63] Re: Robert Todd On MJ-12 - Josh Goldstein [40] UFO Crash In Israel? - Joseph Trainor [22] Feb 13: Re: 8/27/96 MJ-12 Document - Josh Goldstein [21] Re: Robert Todd on MJ-12 - Josh Goldstein [14] Re: The Sheffield Incident - Stephen Mera [7] Re: Research Query: Abductees - Any Blind - Rebecca [6] Re: Research Query: Abductees - Any Blind - Rebecca [4] Time Travel - Philip Mantle - QUEST [8] Re: Riddle of The Skies: Part 2 - Tim Matthews [28] Re: Riddle of The Skies: Part 2 - Neil Morris [41] Re: B-CAUS We Worry... - Brian Cuthbertson [16] Re: Y2K and UFOs - John Velez [33] Re: Riddle of The Skies: Part 2 - neil morris [28] Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality - Serge Salvaille [11] Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality - Steven Kaeser [12] Re: Robert Todd On MJ-12 - Steven Kaeser [19] Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality - Greg Sandow [17] Re: Abductions and Trauma - Greg Sandow [8] Re: What If? - Greg St. Pierre [8] KAPRA - Ontario, Canada - Sean Liddle [21] Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality - Dennis Stacy [95] Re: MAGONIA Monthly Supplement #12 - James Bouck [8] Re: What If? - Serge Salvaille [12] Odd Early Morning Sky Glows in Pennsylvania - Stan Gordon [50] 'Chrome Football' Shuttle Footage - Stig Agermose [20] New UFO Videos Online - Dave Ledger [38] UFO Over Peru Filmed By TV Station - Stig Agermose [23] Re: What If? - Sharon Kardol [11] Martian 'Bacteria' Matched To Earth - Stig Agermose [67] Re: The Sheffield Incident - David Clarke [69] Miami 'Circle' is Railroad Turntable - Robert A.M. Stephens [74] Re: Robert Todd On MJ-12 - Stan Friedman [49] Re: Robert Todd on MJ-12 - Alfred Lehmberg [28] Re: Heavenly Vedic Casket and Inverted Trees - Lawrie Williams [125] Re: The Sheffield Incident - Max Burns [6] Re: Miami Circle is Railroad Turntable - Patricia Mason [20] Re: Odd Early Morning Sky Glows in Pennsylvania - GT McCoy [8] Re: Research Query: Abductees - Any Blind - SKvs [7] Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality - Gildas Bourdais [54] Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality - Jim Mortellaro [92] Re: CompuServe UFO Forum? - Tony Spurrier [10] Pope Phone Home - Jeremy Anderson [15] Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality - Dennis Stacy [25] Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality - Greg Sandow [125] Re: - Dan Geib [10] Re: New UFO Videos Online - Dan Geib [10] Filer's Files #6-1998 - Moderator UFO UpDates [312] Feb 14: Conference & Sheffield Truth - Tim Matthews [44] Re: Riddle of The Skies: Part 2 - Neil Morris [61] 'The Uninvited'? - Mike Farrell [34] 'Strange Days...Indeed' - Tonight: Nick Balaskas - UFO UpDates - Toronto [29] 'Alien Abduction' - A Book Review - UFO UpDates - Toronto [65] Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality - Judith Dale [71] 'Alien Abduction' - A Book Review - UFO UpDates - Toronto [65] Re: The Sheffield Incident - Max Burns [169] Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality - Dennis Stacy [104] Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality - John Rimmer [17] Re: 'Chrome Football' Shuttle Footage - John Velez [16] Re: Research Query: Abductees - Any Blind - Josh Goldstein [8] Meteor Over California? - Ian Darlington - CUFORG [27] BWW Media Alert 19990214 - Bufo Calvin [77] Re: BWW Media Alert 19990214 - Bufo Calvin [77] Re: Robert Todd On MJ-12 - Kevin Randle [83] Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality - John Rimmer [70] Bach's 'Reality Check' - Ron Bach [97] Feb 15: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality - Jim Mortellaro [50] UFO and Paranormal Courses - Stephen Mera [5] Re: Abductions and Researcher Bias - Joseph Polanik [15] Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality - Bill Weber [27] Re: 'The Uninvited'? - Georgina Bruni [12] Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality - Dennis [4] Tim Matthews on IRC - Sean Jones [50] Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality - Leanne Martin [7] Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality - Tim D. Brigham [95] Re: UFO Crash In Israel? - Henny van der Pluijm [9] UFO Wave In Peru - Dr. Virgilio Sanchez-Ocejo [23] Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality - Greg Sandow [55] Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality - Greg Sandow [55] Re: 'Chrome Football' Shuttle Footage - Sean Jones [9] X-Rays Of Suspected 'Implant' - John Velez [44] Re: 'Alien Abduction' - A Book Review - Josh Goldstein [12] Re: Robert Todd On MJ-12 - Stan Friedman [36] Re: Odd Early Morning Sky Glows in Pennsylvania - Brian Straight [10] Tim Matthews/Aka Tim Hepple - Marc Bell [297] BWW Media Alert Update 19990215 - Bufo Calvin [109] Re: Pope On A Rope - Jerome Clark [34] Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality - Jean-Luc Rivera [31] Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality - Jerome Clark [31] Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality - Serge Salvaille [68] UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 4, Number 7 - John Hayes [380] Feb 16: Himself & The Rest - UFO UpDates - Toronto [17] The Sheffield Incident - A Breather - UFO UpDates - Toronto [758] Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality - judithdale [9] Re: Bach's 'Reality Check' - Sue Kovios [31] Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality - John Rimmer [17] Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality - Larry Hatch [5] Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality - Larry Hatch [8] Bimini - Dr. Virgilio Sanchez-Ocejo [114] Re: Robert Todd On MJ-12 - Kevin Randle [25] Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality - Jeff King [43] Re: 'Chrome Football' Shuttle Footage - John Velez [10] =?iso-8859-1?Q?UFO_UpDate:_Re:_On_Ed_Fouch=E9_Speaking_at_?= - Josh Goldstein [23] Riddle of the Skies - Part 3 - Neil Morris [56] Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality - Jerome Clark [25] Feb 17: Re: Bach's 'Reality Check' - Judith Dale [43] Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality - Greg Sandow [4] Re: Pope On A Rope - Jerome Clark [9] Re: Pope On A Rope - Andy Roberts [62] Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality - Jerome Clark [21] Re: Riddle of the Skies - Part 3 - Jeremy Anderson [29] Dutch Motorist Says UFO Disabled His Opel Car - Jeroen Kumeling [13] Re: Riddle of the Skies - Part 3 - Tony Spurrier [10] Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality - Larry Hatch [9] Re: Odd Early Morning Sky Glows in Pennsylvania - John Velez [31] Re: Abductions and Researcher Bias - John Velez [22] Re: Robert Todd On MJ-12 - Stan Friedman [16] Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality - John Velez [40] Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality - Leanne Martin [13] Re: The Saucer Song [was: Abduction - The Issue Of - Dennis Stacy [28] An Out of Body Contact with a Grey? - Joseph Poloniak [24] Upcoming UFO Shows on TV - North America - David Pengilly - UFO*BC [23] Upcoming UFO Shows on TV - Details - UFO UpDates - Toronto [144] Re: On Ed Fouche Speaking at MUFON L.A. Meeting - Diana Botsford [32] MSNBC's 'Hockenberry' Last Night - Greg St. Pierre [27] Re: Abductions and Researcher Bias - Dennis Stacy [43] Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality - Dennis Stacy [21] Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality - Larry Hatch [16] Re: Pope On A Rope - Roy Hale [8] 'Confirmation' - Congratulations!!!!! - Stephen G. Bassett [30] Feb 18: Trumbull County on 'Confirmation' - Kenny Young [71] STS-48 UFO Debunked? - Mike Farrell [48] Re: Robert Todd On MJ-12 - John Rimmer [8] WWW - QUEST - Philip Mantle - UFO [7] Re: Abductions and Researcher Bias - Greg Sandow [87] Re: STS-48 UFO Debunked? - Mike Farrell [54] Re: Abductions and Researcher Bias - Tim D. Brigham [36] Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality - Jean-Luc Rivera [21] Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality - Tim D. Brigham [24] Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality - Steven Kaeser [18] Re: Pope On A Rope - Jerome Clark [45] Re: The Saucer Song - Jerome Clark [9] Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality - Judith Dale [42] Re: Pope On A Rope - Dennis Stacy [33] Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality - John Rimmer [4] Re: Riddle of the Skies - Part 3 - Tim Matthews [76] Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality - Bill Weber [7] Re: Reality Check - Ron Bach [104] Re: Ed Fouche - Nancy Davidson [7] Re: Dutch Motorist Says UFO Disabled His Opel Car - Mark Cashman [6] Max Burns' Non-Criminal Record - Max Burns [53] Re: On Ed Fouche Speaking at MUFON L.A. Meeting - Josh Goldstein [9] Re: Pope On A Rope - James Easton [36] Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality - Judith Dale [15] Re: 'Confirmation' - Congratulations! - Jim Mortellaro [29] Re: 'Confirmation' - Congratulations! - Lesley Cluff [33] Re: 'Confirmation' - Congratulations! - John Velez [43] Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality - Jim Mortellaro [26] Re: 'Implants' - Confirmed? - Mike Farrell [51] Re: Pope On A Rope - AlienHype@aol.com [27] Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality - Greg Sandow [14] Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality - Leanne Martin [7] 'Confirmation' - New York Times Blinks - Ignatius Graffeo [53] Re: Riddle of the Skies - Part 3 - Tony Spurrier [6] Re: Robert Todd On MJ-12 - Kevin Randle [17] Feb 19: Important Update & USA Today Ad. - The Kairos [16] Re: STS-48 Debunked? - Mike Farrell [61] Re: Pope On A Rope - Jerome Clark [28] Re: Miami 'Circle' is Railroad Turntable - Kathleen Andersen [10] Re: Pope On A Rope - Jerome Clark [15] Re: Ed Fouche - Kevin Randle [18] Re: Pope On A Rope - Andy Roberts [47] Auroral Activity Warning - Brian Straight [59] Re: On Ed Fouche Speaking at MUFON L.A. Meeting - Diana Botsford [19] Phil Klass and The Trent Photos - Royce J. Myers III [52] Re: Riddle of the Skies - Part 3 - Neil Morris [9] Re: 'Confirmation' - New York Times Blinks - Jim Deardorff [6] Re: 'Implants' - Confirmed? - Jim Deardorff [15] Re: 'Implants' - Confirmed? - Jacquie Cosford [17] Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality - judithdale [61] Re: Ed Fouche - Josh Goldstein [50] Max Burns - Andy Roberts [25] C-E: 'Confirmation' - The Elderly Gentleman - Kenny Young [32] Bloemfontein, South Africa Case - Disclaimer - Mike Farrell [32] Feb 20: Re: Pope On A Rope - Jerome Clark [85] C-E: Trumbull Co. 9-1-1 recordings.ra - Kenny Young [12] C-E: Trumbull Co. 9-1-1 recordings.ra - Kenny Young [12] Re: Pope On A Rope - Andy Roberts [60] Re: 'Confirmation' - New York Times Blinks - Ignatius Graffeo [7] Re: 'Confirmation' - New York Times Blinks - Jim Mortellaro [31] Re: Phil Klass and The Trent Photos - DRudiak@aol.com [72] Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality - Greg Sandow [34] Re: STS-48 Debunked? - Greg St. Pierre [23] Re: STS-48 Debunked? - Don Ecker [74] RenseNews - Jeff Rense [138] C-E: Rumor About 'Confirmation' "Payoff" False - Kenny Young [64] Questions On A Couple Of Old Photos... - Ralph Howard [19] More 'Implants' - Mike Farrell [119] STS-80 Debunked? - Mike Farrell [159] UK Security Service Records 1914-1945 - Paul Wittry [30] Re: STS-48 Debunked? - Sharon Kardol [9] The Conningsby Tapes - Stig Agermose [24] UFO Flap Over Australia 02-19-99 - Diane Harrison [76] NBC-Video 'Confirmation' Available? - Joachim Koch [9] 23rd Feb -IRC- Tim Good - UKUFONW - United Kingdom UFO Network [74] Feb 21: Re: An Out of Body Contact with a Grey? - Nemesis [13] RAMS & 'Silver Veil' - [59] Down To Earth Magazine - UK Update - Roy Hale [61] Re: 'Implants' - Confirmed? - Mike Farrell [23] Re: Phil Klass and The Trent Photos - Jim Mortellaro [45] Re: Pope On A Rope - Andy Roberts [4] Re: 'Confirmation' - New York Times Blinks - Jim Deardorff [14] Re: NBC-Video 'Confirmation' Available? - Royce J. Myers III [6] Re: Pope On A Rope - Tim Matthews [37] Re: Miami 'Circle' is Railroad Turntable - Dr. Virgilio Sanchez-Ocejo [73] Re: 'Confirmation' - New York Times Blinks - GT McCoy [27] Re: Pope On A Rope - James Easton [24] 'Full Disclosure' On 'The X-Files' - Stig Agermose [111] A Poststructuralist Take On The UFO Phenomenon - Stig Agermose [242] Re: Phil Klass and The Trent Photos - David Rudiak [10] Re: Max Burns - AlienHype@aol.com [119] Fighting off Energy Sucking Entities - Joe Polanik [55] Re: KAPRA - Ontario, Canada - John Hayes [16] Blue Bolide in NH - Greg St. Pierre [11] BWW Media Alert 19990221 - BufoCalvin@aol.com [155] Filer's Files #7-1999 - UFO UpDates - Toronto [400] 'Strange Days...Indeed' - Tonight: Jerome Clark & - UFO UpDates - Toronto [14] Feb 22: Re: Pope On A Rope - Jerome Clark [18] Re: Pope On A Rope - Jerome Clark [10] Roseanne ET/Abduction Show - Today - Patricia Mason [4] Re: 'Implants' - Confirmed? - Jacquie Cosford [26] [lunascan] MGS Update - Francis Ridge [32] Re: 'Confirmation' - New York Times Blinks - Jim Mortellaro [21] Paradigm Research Press Release - 2/17/99 - Stephen Bassett [47] UFOs Over Heathrow Airport, London - Stig Agermose [14] Re: - Stig Agermose [30] Commentary on Jerry Black's Challenge to Whitley - Jorma Kosonen [89] Down To Earth Magazine - UFO Update - Tony Spurrier [13] More On Robert 'Ghostwolf' - Bob Soetebier [257] Re: RAMS & 'Silver Veil' - Henny van der Pluijm [21] STS-80 Story - Bill Hamilton [48] San Luis Valley Update - Christopher O'Brien [129] MILAB - New Book On Military & Alien Abductions - Philip Mantle [72] Re: Pope On A Rope - Andy Roberts [17] Re: On Jerry Black's Challenge to Strieber - Keith Woodard [36] Re: NBC-Video 'Confirmation' Available? - Minna Laajala [10] UFO ROUNDUP Volume 4, Number 8 - Joseph Trainor [412] Re: Pope On A Rope - Rory Lushman [26] Feb 23: Adduction: Serious Research Questions - Leanne Martin [18] The Millennium Report - February 22, 1998 - Paul Anderson - TMP/CPR-Canada [94] Re: A Poststructuralist Take On The UFO Phenomenon - Michael Christol [24] Italian Sighting? - Diane Harrison [18] Australian UFO Research Network 'Outback Tour' - Diane Harrison [90] Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality - Peter Brookesmith Mendoza [32] Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality - Peter Brookesmith Mendoza [370] Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality - Peter Brookesmith Mendoza [102] Re: Pope On A Rope - Jerome Clark [24] Re: Pope On A Rope - Rory Lushman [241] Re: Italian Sighting? - Fabrizio Monaco [7] Re: On Jerry Black's Challenge to Strieber - Jerome Clark [24] Re: A Poststructuralist Take On The UFO Phenomenon - Robert Irving [18] Anal Probe Anyone? - Sean Jones [9] Condon Report Now On Web - Jorma Kosonen [7] London UFO Studies Meetings - John Hayes [33] Re: Condon Report Now On Web - Don Allen [4] Re: NBC-Video 'Confirmation' Available? - Michael Christol [19] Feb 24: Nightly Alien Encounters? - Jorma Kosonen [96] Re: A Poststructuralist Take On The UFO Phenomenon - Michael Christol [77] OBLOS or 'Mobile Cophased Laser Weapon System'? - Leanne Martin [69] Re: On Jerry Black's Challenge to Strieber - Dennis Stacy [8] Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality - Stephen MILES Lewis [78] Re: A Poststructuralist Take On The UFO Phenomenon - Robert Young [18] The Real Issue..... - Jack Solomon [18] Re: Condon Report Now On Web - Jorma Kosonen [6] Major UFO Flap in Italy 02-23-99 - Maurizio Baiata [50] Re: Pope On A Rope - Andy Roberts [20] Black's Interesting Offer to Maccabee - Glenn Joyner [180] Asteroids! - Mitch Battros [81] Re: Tim Matthews - Robin Ramsay [38] European Journal of UFO and Abduction Studies - John Hayes [68] European Journal of UFO and Abduction Studies - - John Hayes [60] European Journal of UFO and Abduction Studies - John Hayes [131] Re: Robert Todd On MJ-12 - Stan Friedman [17] Feb 25: Re: Big Lights Out West - Daev Walsh - Blather [244] Re: A Poststructuralist Take On The UFO Phenomenon - Michael Christol [5] Re: A Poststructuralist Take On The UFO Phenomenon - Alfred Lehmberg [77] History Channel Special - Joe Firmage [14] Re: Tim Matthews - Henny van der Pluijm [28] Re: Pope On A Rope - Roy Hale [42] Re: Major UFO Flap in Italy 02-23-99 - Bob Young [12] Re: History Channel Special - Roy Hale [7] Re: South Australian UFO Report - Diane Harrison [103] CSI Launches Space Website Search Engine - Ignatius Graffeo [57] Fireball/Airplane Crash/UFO? - Nick Balaskas [11] Re: Pope On A Rope - Jerome Clark [17] Re: Black's Interesting Offer to Maccabee - Stan Friedman [11] Re: A Poststructuralist Take On The UFO Phenomenon - Robert Young [15] Re: Phil Klass and The Trent Photos - Bruce Maccabee [18] Re: Questions On A Couple Of Old Photos... - Bruce Maccabee [16] Re: Phil Klass and The Trent Photos - Bruce Maccabee [50] Feb 26: Pending Lawsuit - Dilettoso vs. Korff - Jim Dilettoso [65] Major 'UFO Flap' in Italy - Venus & Jupiter? - Edoardo Russo [129] Abduction Researcher Email Address Needed - Leanne Martin [11] Re: South Australian UFO Report - Greg St. Pierre [5] Re: A Poststructuralist Take On The UFO Phenomenon - Michael Christol [28] Pt. 1/3 - UFOs And Man, Their Possible - Michael Christol [283] Pt. 2/3 - UFOs And Man, Their Possible Relationship - Michael Christol [272] Pt. 3/3 - UFOs And Man, Their Possible Relationship - Michael Christol [302] The Millennium Report: STS-61 UFO Footage - Paul Anderson - TMP / CPR-Canada [189] Re: Fireball/Airplane Crash/UFO? - Nick Balaskas [24] Re: Black's Interesting Offer to Maccabee - bruce maccabee [7] Heading Down Under - Roy Hale [11] Re: South Australian UFO Report - Mark Cashman [16] DRB Concerns About Meddling Ufologists - Donald Ledger [33] Re: Pope On A Rope - Andy Roberts [14] Chat with UFO Lobbyist Stephen Bassett - Yvonne Hedenland [11] Chat with UFO Lobbyist Stephen Bassett - Yvonne Hedenland [11] The Anomalist 7 - Dennis Stacy [4] Trent and Rouen Images - James Easton [28] Re: Pope On A Rope - Jerome Clark [6] Feb 27: Trumbull County on Art Bell - Kenny Young [9] Re: Trent and Rouen Images - David Rudiak [11] Canadian Defence Department Scientists On Alien - Stig Agermose [69] Re: Phil Klass and The Trent Photos - David Rudiak [148] NASA Awards $600,000 To Antigravity Experiment - Stig Agermose [23] Contrails and Frogs - Lawrie Williams [15] [MC] ATTENTION - Special Bulletin (2) - Geri & Alfred Webre [67] *** Jeff Rense Weekly e-News *** 2-27-99 - Jeff Rense Weekly e-News [199] Re: Robert Todd On MJ-12 - Stan Friedman [25] Re: Phil Klass and The Trent Photos - Keith Woodard [54] Re: Pending Lawsuit - Dilettoso vs. Korff - Lawrie Williams [28] Re: UFOs And Man, Their Possible Relationship - Lawrie Williams [19] 1876 Helicopter Mystery - Stig Agermose [78] Re: Trent and Rouen Images - Bruce Maccabee [16] Scientists Fear Alien Invasion - Michael J. Woods [52] John Ford [was: A Poststructuralist...] - Michael Christol [167] Updated Sheffield Incident Site - Max Burns [7] Who Is/Was Gen. W.B. Smith? - Lesley Cluff [38] Zecharia Sitchin? - Josh Goldstein [8] Alien Invasion -- From Rod Allen, Times & - Stan Friedman [59] Re: South Australian UFO Report - Larry Hatch [137] Re: South Australian UFO Report - John Hayes [16] Feb 28: Re: Who Is/Was Gen. W.B. Smith? - Moderator UFO UpDates - Toronto [300] UFO-Landing Case With Picture In 1968 - Werner Walter [10] Remarkable 'Meteors' - Bruce Maccabee [285] South Africa Sighting - Video Evaluation - Barry Taylor [67] Re: [MC] ATTENTION - Special Bulletin (2) - Jeff Westover [10] Re: Pending Lawsuit - Dilettoso vs. Korff - Greg St. Pierre [8] Re: Trumbull County on Art Bell - Larry Hatch [13]
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 1 Search For Underground Alien Life From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@get2net.dk> Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 05:52:47 GMT Fwd Date: Mon, 01 Feb 1999 09:42:17 -0500 Subject: Search For Underground Alien Life Source: http://www.msnbc.com:80/news/236716.asp Links are preceded by asterisks. Stig *** Looking for life? Look down deep By Alan Boyle MSNBC Jan. 30 =97 If you're serious about the search for extraterrestrial life, it's going to take more than rovers and radio telescopes. You may have to look miles beneath the surfaces of other worlds. Maybe the movie "Armageddon" got it right: The best astronauts for interplanetary expeditions will be deep drillers. Last Years's big asteroid movie drew a Texas-sized share of scorn for its improbable plot, which turned a ragtag gaggle of oil-rig workers into a team of astronaut-heroes in a matter of days. But for all its scientific sins, Arizona State University geologist Jack Farmer hints that the people in charge of planning missions to Mars could learn a thing or two from Bruce Willis' character. "They're going to have to get some experience on drilling rigs," Farmer said this week at the annual meeting of the American Association for the Advancement of Science. For years, Farmer has worked on NASA's strategies for exploring the Red Planet and for seeking traces of ancient extraterrestrial life =97 an endeavor for which he coined the term "exopaleontology." The current theme for the quest on Mars has to do with water: Did liquid water flow freely over the planet billions of years ago? Where did it come from, and where did it go? Might the presence of water have facilitated the development of life on ancient Mars? Does the planet still exhibit a pattern of water circulation on some level? If there is such a pattern =97 a "hydrologic cycle," to use geological parlance =97 it would have to be active far beneath the surface, Farmer said. Indeed, a growing number of scientists say the water that once filled Martian valleys most likely came from underground hydrothermal systems, rather than from an Earthlike system of rivers, oceans and rain clouds. "The valleys were carved by flowing water, but the water sprang forth from beneath the surface and eroded the channels by a process of =91sapping,' rather than by runoff of surface water," University of Colorado geologist Bruce Jakosky writes in Friday's issue of the journal Science. "Although this probably requires an ancient climate warmer than today's, it does not necessarily require an atmosphere warm enough to allow substantial atmospheric precipitation and runoff." Those words echo the *view of Michael Malin, the principal investigator for the camera aboard the Mars Global Surveyor spacecraft now orbiting the planet. Jakosky also points out that Global Surveyor's thermal emission spectrometer found a large concentration of hematite, an iron-bearing mineral that forms on Earth only in high-temperature aqueous systems. "This is compelling evidence for hydrothermal systems on Mars," he writes. Such hydrothermal systems could have provided a suitable environment for the development of life on Mars, Jakosky says, and some form of life may continue to lurk there, if only on the microscopic level. But how do you test those amazing hypotheses? One strategy is to take samples from those ancient valleys and flood plains, in the hope that you can reconstruct the geological and perhaps even the biological record. The recently launched Mars Surveyor 98 mission is designed to shoot *penetrators as far as 6 feet below the planet's surface, and there are other plans to dig and burrow for samples of subsurface soil. [*Sarah Gavit, project manager for the Deep Space 2 microprobes, explains how the probes will be used during the Mars Surveyor 98 mission.] In the end, however, explorers may have to drill thousands of feet into Mars. Indeed, Farmer said that just might be the main justification for sending humans to Mars, perhaps sometime within the next 20 years. Mars isn't the only world where scientists want to go deep: For example, researchers see ample evidence that a briny ocean lies miles beneath the icy surface of *Europa, one of Jupiter's moons. Such a body of water would be the No. 1 target in the search for life elsewhere in the solar system. Some scientists say even *Charon, Pluto's moon, might have a subsurface ocean. NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory already is testing *robots that might eventually burrow beneath the ice and sample those seas. In all these cases, researchers will have to deal with the issue of forward contamination: How do you guard against transferring Earth's organisms to these otherworldly environments? Ruining your samples would be the least of your problems: You could ruin an entire global ecology in the process. Avoiding such a catastrophe will require decades of planning, and an ability to handle the controls with surgical skill. Hmmm ... come to think of it, maybe a bandoleer-bedecked Bruce Willis type isn't the right person for the job after all. For more information on the week's developments, click on the links below. Please send your comments to Space News Editor Alan Boyle at alan.boyle@msnbc.com *Dark cave may hold secrets of life *Space station plan in flux again *First images from Subaru Telescope *Lunar orbiter lowers its orbit *Gamma ray burst caught on tape *Discuss the week's developments on the Space News Bulletin Board ** There are many strategies in the search for extraterrestrial life. Which do you think could be the most fruitful?* 26027 responses Looking for traces of ancient life on Mars...............17% =09 Exploring the moons of Jupiter and Saturn..............15% =09 Listening for faraway radio signals...........................29% =09 Investigating distant Earthlike planets......................33% =09 None of the above (discuss on Space News BBS)...5% =09 Survey results tallied every 60 seconds. Live Votes reflect respondents' views and are not scientifically valid surveys.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 1 Meteoritologist Researches Decades Old Fireball From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@get2net.dk> Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 07:04:15 +0100 (MET) Fwd Date: Mon, 01 Feb 1999 09:45:32 -0500 Subject: Meteoritologist Researches Decades Old Fireball Source: The Kansas City Star http://www.kcstar.com:80/item/pages/local.pat,local/3 0dab652.129,.html Stig *** LOCAL STAR JOURNAL: Meteoritologist researches story behind decades-ago fireball By JOE POPPER - Columnist Date: 01/29/99 22:15 About 85 years ago, an extraterrestrial intruder came to the hilly, glacial terrain of central Buchanan County, Mo., some 40 miles north of Kansas City. It had entered the Earth's atmosphere traveling at more than 12 miles per second. It arrived over Missouri amid a fireball brighter than the sun. As it neared the ground, it exploded with a sound that smashed at eardrums. Its landing trembled the earth. "It was like the end of the world," said J.B. Sampson, then a young boy, now an old man. Sampson is probably the only person still alive who actually saw the dramatic last flight of the meteorite that crashed near the small town of Faucett, between 1910 and 1915. (The date is difficult to ascertain now because accounts of its landing differed.) Although the meteorite's arrival created some local commotion, no part of it was found at the time, and its arrival soon was forgotten. And then in 1965 a farmer named Carl Spencer struck a fragment of strange-looking, iron-heavy rock while plowing a field. Experts analyzed the rock and certified the meteorite. They named it the "Faucett fall." Little else was written about it until a man named Chris Timmons came to the region, a quiet hunter in a seed cap following the faint traces of a long-buried trail. Timmons, 33, is an amateur meteoritologist (as distinct from weather experts who are called meteorologists). In the time he can spare from working his family's farm near Wheeling, Mo., and from his job at an electrical supply company in Chillicothe, he researches meteorites and other things. "Actually, I research anything that catches my interest," Timmons said last week. His studies are wide-ranging and unusual, and include the search for unmarked pioneer graves and the art of falconry. Such unbridled curiosity has moved his siblings (he is the 10th of 11 children) to label him, in a friendly way, he said, as "crazy." Perhaps that is because his avocations are marked by that uncommon purity of purpose that often attends unpaid work done in search of self-earned knowledge and private joy. In recent years, Timmons has studied meteorites -- those varied and mysterious lumps of matter that are formed in space and land on Earth. He spends many hours in the public library near his home reading texts and scientific journals, and logs on to the Internet for meteorite updates. In 1996 Timmons turned his attention to the long-ignored Faucett fall. Only five knew He arrived in Faucett (population: 190) with little to go on save the knowledge that a meteorite had once fallen nearby. "Nothing substantial was written about it that I could find," he said. A soft-spoken man who travels alone, Timmons began his inquiry at the post office, where to his surprise nobody knew a thing about a meteorite. "I then walked around town talking to anyone I could find, but no one I spoke to had ever heard of it," he said. "So I circled the whole area on a map, went out into the countryside, and began driving." Armed only with a plat atlas, which was soon thumb-worn and filled with Timmons' penciled notations, he spent more than 200 hours in the summer of 1996 on the back roads of Buchanan County. He knocked on doors, asked questions and stopped to talk with farmers in their fields. "Interviews play the biggest part in my research," he said. "Around Faucett I spoke to at least 200 people. But only five knew about the meteorite." Despite such odds, his work was aided by a stroke of luck. "On the third day of my research, I met someone who had found a fragment of the meteorite," Timmons recalled. "And he pointed out the area of the field where it came from. That was my first location." The farmer knew of several other finds, and that was a crucial start. For as it is in real estate, so it is in meteorite hunting -- location is everything. >From the location of several fragments, and from their relative size, a hunter like Timmons can begin to draw critical inferences. That is because meteorites, encountering heavier atmosphere near the ground, often disintegrate in flight, dispersing their fragments across what is called a "strewn field." And such fields tend to form distinct patterns. They are often elliptical in shape, bulging in the middle, with the smallest fragments found near the start of the meteorite's final path, and the largest, those which had the greatest momentum, found at the end. "From fragment locations you can ascertain the direction of an incoming meteor," Timmons said. "You can also estimate the general area where other fragments may be found. Eventually you develop almost a sixth sense, a feeling about what actually happened. You can almost see it." An odd, heavy rock Timmons' second lucky break occurred when he met Larry Spencer, a farmer whose father, Carl, had found the initial fragment of the meteorite. At the time of his father's discovery in 1965, the younger Spencer was a geology student at Kansas State University. His father sent him the odd-looking 15-pound rock. "Farmers notice strange rocks," Spencer said last week. "And a meteorite fragment is often unusual in appearance. It's heavier than most rocks because of its metal content, and it's often pitted from being burned as it enters the atmosphere." Intrigued by his father's discovery, Spencer turned it over to one of his professors. Bits of the fragment soon made their way to the Smithsonian Institution, the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, the University of Kansas, the National Aeronautics and Space Administration, and a Russian research facility. But, Spencer said, the experts found that the fragment came from what is called a stony, the most common meteorite form. Stonies account for nine of 10 finds and are made mostly of stone rather than of the more esoteric deep-space mineral compounds found in rarer meteorites. Little further research was done. Until, that is, Timmons came to town. Since then he has tracked down at least 12 fragments of the meteor found by various farmers and kept mainly as curios. Several of those fragments were relatively large, including one football-sized 35-pounder and another that weighed in at 64 pounds. "Those finds affirmed my deductions," he said. "I believe the meteor weighed about 200 pounds, came in from the southwest, and fragmented along a path about six miles long (covering some 15 square miles). And I still think there's a major fragment out there at the end waiting to be discovered." 'All shiny inside' Having basically mapped the Faucett fall, Timmons has turned his gaze south to several areas in rural Missouri where strewn fields are known to exist. One is in southern Cass County, where a man named H.O. Mattingley recalls seeing something strange in the sky back in 1932. "I was 7 years old, and I was standing with my dad one afternoon as he was digging a well," Mattingley said last week. "Suddenly I heard a series of cracking noises, real loud noises, maybe a dozen of them. I looked up and saw black puffs of smoke, almost like anti-aircraft shells bursting." A short time later his uncle found a small piece of odd-looking, heavy blackened rock. "When we opened it with a hacksaw," Mattingley said, "it was all shiny inside. It was something to see." Timmons said he had looked inside many such shards, and the excitement he feels at such moments propels his search for further fields and fragments. He does not seek evidence of cataclysmic events such as the huge meteorite that smashed into Siberia in 1908 and destroyed forests and fields for hundreds of square miles. Nor does he seek the fame and riches acquired by Adm. Robert E. Peary, who financed his entire 1909 North Pole expedition by selling a 34-ton meteorite found in Greenland. What he hunts for are rare traces of the unusual amid the commonplace, the small and overlooked pieces of other worlds and eons past whose existence and discovery add a dash of wonder to his life. "Every meteorite is a time traveler," he said. "Some have been moving since the beginning of the universe. All are different, and all are beautiful." Anyone with meteorite information can write Chris Timmons at Rt. 1, Box 126, Wheeling, MO 64688, or call him at (660) 659-2214 To reach Joe Popper, call (816) 234-4756 or write to him at The Kansas City Star, 1729 Grand Blvd., Kansas City, MO 64108 All content =A9 1999 The Kansas City Star
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 1 Ohio Engineer Pioneered SETI Search For Laser From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@get2net.dk> Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 17:34:41 +0100 (MET) Fwd Date: Mon, 01 Feb 1999 09:49:21 -0500 Subject: Ohio Engineer Pioneered SETI Search For Laser [List only] Source: The Columbus Dispatch (Ohio), http://www.dispatch.com/pan/news/lore31nws.html Stig *** Space enthusiasts use eyes, ears in search for alien life January 31, 1999 ** The "Big Ear" radio telescope which, in the 1970s pioneered the search for alien civilizations, was demolished last year and replaced by a golf course. But that doesn't mean central Ohio's extraterrestrial entrepreneurs have stopped wondering what's out there. Stuart Kingsley of Bexley, a 50-year-old electrical engineer, has since 1994 been one of the few people on the planet searching the heavens for laser-pulse signals that might be a greeting from another world. Kingsley's strategy has been controversial since, over the past three decades, the Search for Extraterrestrial Intelligence program (known as SETI) has been dominated by radio astronomers. Now, however, the California-based SETI Institute and the Planetary Society have both endorsed Kingsley's crusade for an optical SETI. Earlier this month, the Planetary Society credited Kingsley's pioneering efforts while announcing the formation of new optical SETI programs at Harvard University and the University of California. "It's been an eight-year battle to bring them to that point," said Kingsley, who began his own optical signal search using a backyard telescope. A laser specialist and long-time SETI enthusiast, Kingsley said he began thinking about lasers as an intergalactic signal device after being laid off by the Battelle Memorial Institute in 1987. SETI specialists at the Planetary Society and the National Aeronautics and Space Administration didn't share his enthusiasm. They thought laser pulses would be too expensive for an alien society to transmit, too narrow in their reach and too likely to be blocked by interstellar dust. Kingsley, however, has argued that an advanced alien civilization would recognize that laser beacons are more efficient than radio ones, because of their intensity and the amount of information they could convey. "For brightness and radiance, it's hard to beat a laser," he said. "They can be 10 million times more intense than a star during a one nanosecond pulse." Kingsley's program, called COSETI for Columbus Optical SETI, is a targeted search of star systems within 80 to 100 light years of Earth. Details can be found at the COSETI Web site: www.coseti.org Meanwhile, those volunteers who for decades ran the "Big Ear" radio telescope SETI program south of Delaware say they will have a prototype instrument of a different design up and running on OSU's West Campus by the middle of next year. The new system, called Argus, is a computer- coordinated array of 64 small dipole antennas, each only a few inches long. Such arrays could consist of thousands or even millions of separate antennas and be far more sensitive than today's largest radio telescopes, said project director Bob Dixon. "Whereas traditional radio telescopes use large parabolic dishes to capture weak, astronomical signals from a tiny section of the sky, Argus will use a planar array of antennas to observe the entire sky continuously," he said. The SETI Institute, which provided $30,000 last year for early tests of the system, has approved $150,000 for construction of the prototype. Details can be found at the OSU Radio Observatory Web site: www.bigear.org David Lore, science reporter for The Dispatch, can be reached at: dlore@dispatch.com Copyright =A9 1999, The Columbus Dispatch
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 1 Re: Response To Concerns Over IUFOMRC In Roswell From: Bob Bush <Webmaster@IUFOMRC.org> Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 12:21:05 -0700 Fwd Date: Mon, 01 Feb 1999 10:05:47 -0500 Subject: Re: Response To Concerns Over IUFOMRC In Roswell [Non-Subscriber Post] This posting is submitted at the request of the IUFOMRC: RESPONSE TO ALLEGATIONS CONCERNING THE INTERNATIONAL UFO MUSEUM AND RESEARCH CENTER (IUFOMRC) IN ROSWELL, NEW MEXICO Recently, several letters, ads, articles, etc. have surfaced on the net and in print, concerning the IUFOMRC. This response is a one-time and one-time only effort. Any additional letters, ads, articles, etc. will not be addressed. On September 28, 1998, the Museum hired an Office Coordinator, with Board approval. The decision to hire a new Director was put on the back burner until the business end of running the Museum could be organized. The Museum, recognized locally as a mom and pop organization, wanted to change its image into a professionally run organization. The Board recognized the need to instill policies and procedures in preparation for continued growth and the potential need for additional staff. The new Office Coordinator�s credentials include, but are not limited to, the following: * BA in Sociology from Loyola-Marymount University in Los Angeles, California. * MA in Human Resources Development from Webster University in St. Louis, Missouri. * MA in Human Resources Management from Webster University in St. Louis, Missouri. * MA in Computer Resources Management from Webster University in St. Louis, Missouri. At no time has the Office Coordinator been addressed as the Director, Acting Director, or Interim Director. In fact, when approached with the idea of possibly working into the Director position, the Office Coordinator let the co- founders know she was not interested. Everyone at the Museum pitches in when needed, to perform the duties of a Director. On October 28, 1998, one employee was terminated; severance pay was given. One volunteer was asked to sever all ties with the museum. This particular volunteer had been asked to leave on two previous occasions, and at no time was ever a paid employee. These two departures were not the decision of one individual. The decision to terminate the employee and to sever ties with the volunteer was unanimously voted on by an Executive Committee. This committee included the three co-founders and a Board representative as well as other staff members. On November 4, 1998, the agreement with our then webmaster was terminated (with severance pay). This termination was due to the fact that the webmaster carried out a directive from the volunteer who was no longer associated with the Museum and did so without notifying the Museum. At this time, the Museum had also learned that the website domain was actually registered to the webmaster instead of to the Museum. This was unacceptable, as we were paying her to maintain the Museum�s website, not her own. The Museum would have corrected this problem whether or not the webmaster was to be terminated. In changing the domain name, proper procedure was followed. There is nothing unethical or deceptive about this procedure. You simply request a form, fill it out, notarize it, and send it in. Internic either approves the change or not. In our case, Internic approved the change. In addition, the Museum is now facing a lawsuit that could have been avoided had the webmaster followed through with her assigned responsibility of notifying the Museum when questionable material was about to be placed on the net. The decision to terminate this webmaster and hire a new one, was once again an Executive Committee�s decision. The Museum made a verbal request of the webmaster, for a listing of copyrighted material to include the dates of the copyright. She was informed that any copyrighted material, that was not a "work for hire", would be taken off the website. No list was ever received. Yes, we currently have two websites. However, the general public is not aware of this. The old site has been left up while the new site is under construction. As soon as we are ready to make the switch to the new site, anyone calling up iufomrc.com will either get a message containing our new address, or will simply receive the new site. As for the former Director, in her resignation letter to the Board dated August 18, 1998, she states that her resignation, effective August 20, 1998, was due to her new assignment with the Ronald McDonald House in Lubbock, Texas. As for "heavy-handed" or "Gestapo" tactics at the museum: * It is the Museum�s policy to have the Office Coordinator open and appropriately disburse the mail. This policy applies to all mail received at the Museum unless it is stamped "Personal and Confidential." * It is the policy of the Museum that all matters concerning personnel issues, overheard conversations, or any information gained not be disclosed to others, inside or outside, the Museum. * As far as looking through everyone�s hard drives and e-mail, this is not true. Not only is this statement ridiculous, but there�s not enough time in a day for this kind of policing of the staff. * One researcher, visiting the library, was asked to leave by one of the Museum�s co-founders. This co-founder was well within rights, as the researcher was involving herself in personnel issues, which were none of her concern. Other allegations: * Based on the current level of information being issued over the net, should other ufologists choose to not visit the world�s largest and most complete UFO library, it�s their loss. * What other professional would develop a product for a client worth $300,000.00 and then settle for a mere $200.00 a month as compensation? * The current Office Coordinator makes almost 50% less income than at her previous position. * It does not take a ufologist to manage the Museum offices. However, knowledge of the Roswell Incident and other data pertaining to UFO�s in general, has increased tremendously since starting at the Museum. In summary: The Museum is doing fine and attendance is still high. There were 185,713 visitors through the Museum in 1998. On an average, we had 357 visitors per day. We also averaged visitors from 25 states and 5 countries per day. The library project is moving right along, and we should be announcing our grand opening early in the spring. Mr. George Fawcett, one of the Museum�s benefactors, is scheduled to be here in February and will be our guest lecturer on Saturday night, February 13th. Mr. Sabo, one of our other benefactors, recently sent us a sizeable donation, earmarked for the new library. As for those who want to continue trying to smear the names of those associated with the Museum and who wish to continue making allegations: life is, fortunately or unfortunately, all about choices. Your choice is unfortunate. The choice to believe or not to believe, is fortunately, our right. To reiterate, no further response will be forthcoming from the IUFOMRC.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 1 Re: BWW Media Alert 19990131 From: Buifo Calvin <BufoCalvin@aol.com> Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 12:37:32 EST Fwd Date: Mon, 01 Feb 1999 10:05:15 -0500 Subject: Re: BWW Media Alert 19990131 Bufo Calvin P O Box 5231, Walnut Creek, CA 94596 Internet: BufoCalvin@aol.com Website: http://members.aol.com/bufocalvin http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/redirect-home/bufosweirdworld Link to Amazon.com ALL RIGHTS RESERVED (permission is granted to reproduce or redistribute this edition of Bufo's WEIRD WORLD provided that attribution is made to http://members.aol.com/bufocalvin. It is good etiquette to check with strangers before you e-mail them something. If you forward this, please make sure it is clear that you are forwarding it). January 31, 1999 On to the listings: Times are generally Pacific. TELEVISION A&E Thursday, February 4, 9:00 PM, THE UNEXPLAINED: CLOSE ENCOUNTERS (UFOs) Friday, February 5, 1:00 AM, THE UNEXPLAINED: CLOSE ENCOUNTERS (UFOs) CHANNEL 4 (UK) Monday, February 1, 8:00 PM (local time), RIDDLE OF THE SKIES (UFOs, etc.) THE DISCOVERY CHANNEL Sunday, January 31, 12:30 PM, ARTHUR C. CLARKE'S WORLD OF STRANGE POWERS: GHOSTS, APPARITIONS, AND HAUNTED HOUSES Thursday, February 4, 10:00 PM, INTO THE UNKNOWN: GHOSTS AND UFOS Friday, February 5, 1:00 AM, , INTO THE UNKNOWN: GHOSTS AND UFOS Saturday, February 6, 1:00 PM, INTO THE UNKNOWN: GHOSTS AND UFOS Next Sunday, February 7, 12:30 PM, ROOTS OF EVIL (magic) Next Thursday, February 11, 9:00 PM, INSIDE AREA 51 Next Thursday, February 11, 10:00 PM, INTO THE UNKNOWN: UNKNOWN CREATURES Next Friday, February 12, 12:00 AM, INSIDE AREA 51 Next Friday, February 12, 1:00 AM, INTO THE UNKNOWN: UNKNOWN CREATURES THE LEARNING CHANNEL Monday, February 1, 9:00 PM, GREAT MYSTERIES AND MYTHS (includes the Loch Ness monster and religious mysteries) Monday, February 1, 10:00 PM, STRANGE SCIENCE: BIZARRE PHENOMENA: STIGMATA Tuesday, February 2, Midnight, GREAT MYSTERIES AND MYTHS (includes the Loch Ness monster and religious mysteries) Tuesday, February 2, 1:00 AM, STRANGE SCIENCE: BIZARRE PHENOMENA: STIGMATA Tuesday, February 2, 9:00 PM, UFOS: APOLLO 13 (not sure why they have this combined...) Tuesday, February 2, 10:00 PM, STRANGE SCIENCE: WEIRD PLACES Wednesday, February 3, Midnight, UFOS: APOLLO 13 (not sure why they have this combined...) Wednesday, February 3, 1:00 AM, STRANGE SCIENCE: WEIRD PLACES Wednesday, February 3, 10:00 PM, STRANGE SCIENCE (includes UFOs) Thursday, February 4, 1:00 AM, STRANGE SCIENCE (includes UFOs) Thursday, February 4, 10:00 PM, STRANGE SCIENCE: UNUSUAL PEOPLE (includes spontaneous human combustion, psychic artists) Friday, February 5, 1:00 AM, STRANGE SCIENCE: UNUSUAL PEOPLE (includes spontaneous human combustion, psychic artists) Friday, February 5, 10:00 PM, STRANGE SCIENCE: ODD SOUNDS (ringing rocks, ghosts, Taos hum, etc.) Next Sunday, February 7, 1:00 PM, STRANGE SCIENCE: ODD SOUNDS (ringing rocks; ghosts; Taos hum, etc.) Next Sunday, February 7, 2:00 PM, STRANGE SCIENCE: UNUSAL PEOPLE (includes spontaneous human combustions, psychic artists) Next Sunday, February 7, 3:00 PM, STRANGE SCIENCE: MYSTERIOUS SKIES (includes UFOs) Next Sunday, February 7, 4:00 PM, STRANGE SCIENCE: WEIRD PLACES Next Sunday, February 7, 5:00 PM, STRANGE SCIENCE: BIZARRE PHENOMENA (includes stigmata) THE SCIENCE CHANNEL The new schedule (since December 28, 1998) is weird programming for an hour each at 3:00 AM, 11:00 AM,and 7:00 PM. Alternating shows are: INTO THE UNKNOWN and ARTHUR C. CLARKE'S MYSTERIOUS UNIVERSE. They also run a Roswell show now every other week (it's probably the same show every time) at 4:00 AM and noon on Sundays. THE SCI-FI CHANNEL Tuesday, January 26, 11:00 AM, SIGHTINGS: EPISODE #3019 (Mexican UFOs; psychic twins; cloning) Wednesday, January 27, 11:00 AM, SIGHTINGS: EPISODE #3020 (Pacific Northwest UFOs; luck; psychic detective; haunted hotel in California) Thursday, January 28, 11:00 AM, SIGHTINGS: EPISODE #3021 (secret government UFO research; Roswell; psychic detective; cemetery haunting) Friday, January 29, 11:00 AM, SIGHTINGS: EPISODE #3022 (twins abducted by aliens; artificial intelligence; haunting; angels) Tuesday, February 2, 11:00 AM, SIGHTINGS: EPISODE #3023 (past-lives; heartland ghost; UFOs and nuclear weapons; snake handling; near-death experiences) Wednesday, February 3, 11:00 AM, SIGHTINGS: EPISODE #3024 (Middle East UFOs; bigfoot; near-death experiences in children) Thursday, February 4, 11:00 AM, SIGHTINGS: EPISODE #3025 (Hangar 18; psychic detective; alien abduction) Friday, February 5, 11:00 AM, SIGHTINGS: EPISODE #3026 (technology of UFOs; does getting hit in the head make you psychic; Bahamian obeah ritual; Mexican UFOs; intuitive healing) Tuesday, February 9, 11:00 AM, SIGHTINGS: EPISODE #4027 (UFO tape; psychic detective; alien autopsy; bigfoot) Wednesday, February 10, 11:00 AM, SIGHTINGS: EPISODE #4028 (psychic cop; Queen Mary ghosts) Thursday, February 11, 11:00 AM, SIGHTINGS: EPISODE #4029 (ghosts; Israeli UFOs; premonition) Friday, February 12, 11:00 AM, SIGHTINGS: EPISODE #4030 (life on Mars; Colorado haunting; Iranian UFOs) ___________________________ This is Bufo saying, "If =everything= seemed normal, that =would= be weird!" ____________________________ ___________________________ This is Bufo saying, "If =everything= seemed normal, that =would= be weird!" ____________________________ You can stop receiving this from me just by asking (note: it is commonly redistributed, and I can't control you getting it from those sources) by e-mail at BufoCalvin@aol.com. You can also subscribe or unsubscribe to Bufo's WEIRD WORLD Media Alert the same way. Also, please let me know if there is something in the media you think I should cover. Deadline is Tuesday, t he week before. _____________________________
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 1 Re: Greek Legend Becoming Fact: Charon Prime Target From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@get2net.dk> Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 07:56:59 GMT Fwd Date: Mon, 01 Feb 1999 10:08:48 -0500 Subject: Re: Greek Legend Becoming Fact: Charon Prime Target Source: http://www.msnbc.com/news/233408.asp Stig *** 'Charon was supposed to be the boatman who brings life between this world and the underworld. If there is indeed life on Charon, it seems very fitting with these legends.' DOUGLAS LIN Lick Observatory [Image: This is the clearest existing image of Pluto and Charon, captured by the Hubble Space Telescope. The moon, at upper right, was discovered in 1978. Before that, astronomers could not make out the satellite as separate from the planet.] Charon: Dark horse in search for life Could there be water and energy under ice of Pluto's moon? By Alan Boyle ** MSNBC - Jan. 28 - It's the most distant moon known, out where our sun is a cold point of light. But scientists say Charon, the icy satellite of the planet Pluto, ranks as a prime target in their study of the conditions that could sustain life. Planetary scientists have a short list of worlds in our solar system that could have sustained life at some point in their development. "There have been as many as five habitable worlds," including Earth, said David Des Marais of NASA's Ames Research Center. He said his list included Mars, which scientists believe was once warmer, wetter and Earthlike; Venus, which may have had a more hospitable climate before its atmosphere fell victim to a runaway greenhouse effect; Europa, which may have the solar system's biggest ocean of water beneath its outer shell of ice; and Charon. Charon? The cold moon that whirls around Pluto at a distance of 3.7 billion miles (5.9 billion kilometers) from the sun? The puny world discovered only in 1978, with a mass just 0.03 percent of Earth's, with a diameter roughly equal to the distance from New York to Chicago? Although it seems unlikely, Charon (generally pronounced like the name Karen) just might be capable of harboring life, said Douglas Lin, an astrophysicist at the Lick Observatory. The possibility was raised by data from the Hubble Space Telescope, indicating that Charon's orbit around Pluto is slightly eccentric. Lin theorized that the orientation of Charon's orbit to Pluto's orbit introduced a wobble, analogous to the wobble of a spinning top as it starts to slow down. Whatever the cause, the eccentric orbit means both Pluto and Charon are subject to gravitational tides as they spin around each other. The tides warp both worlds, leading to internal heating. But since Charon is 10 times less massive than Pluto, the tides create more stresses and strains within the interior of the moon. "We estimate that the interior of Charon could be molten," Lin said. "Now, do we have any evidence to suggest this is in fact what's happening? For the time being, we don't have any information. We don't have a very good picture of what's going on." If Charon does have a molten core, scientists say that could provide the energy source required for sustaining life. After all, there are organisms that survive around hydrothermal vents in the sunless depths of Earth's oceans, which are as dark as Charon. Scientists also say life requires liquid water and organic materials and Lin contends that those might be present on Charon as well. "You see plenty of organic material in comets, and comets come from the outer part of the solar system," Lin said. "There probably is no shortage of organic material in the outer solar system." As for water, Lin noted that Charon's surface was apparently more reflective and had "a little bit more of water frost" than Pluto's surface leading scientists to speculate that the moon was covered with ice. If Charon's interior is warm enough, there may be liquid water beneath the ice, Lin theorized. And if that's the case, such waters might be suitable for life, at least on the microbial level. "Pluto, it turns out in Greek legend, was the god of the underworld, and Charon was supposed to be the boatman who brings life between this world and the underworld," Lin mused. "If there is indeed life on Charon, it seems very fitting with these legends." Charon and Pluto are both on the itinerary for a probe known as the Pluto-Kuiper Express, currently on the drawing boards at NASA. The space agency intends to launch the spacecraft in about 2004. It would take 10 years for the probe to fly by Pluto, and then it would continue even farther out, into a ring of ice worlds known as the Kuiper Belt. The data sent back during that flyby could answer at least some of the questions posed by Lin. Even if Charon turns out to be barren, Lin said that each expansion to our solar system's "habitable zone" increases the odds of finding life elsewhere in the universe. "If you took literally our old concept (of habitable zones), you would be very pessimistic indeed to think there would be the possibility of life existing anywhere in the universe," he said. THE PROBLEM WITH PLUTO Over the past few weeks, Pluto has been in the news because of a controversy over its classification. Some leading astronomers said they were a bit miffed over reports that Pluto might be "demoted" from its status as a major planet. "It's not been demoted," said Brian Marsden of the International Astronomical Union's Minor Planet Center. "That never really was the situation." But Marsden acknowledged that the debate was confusing even for some of his scientific colleagues. Pluto facts Average orbit: 3.7 billion miles, or 5.9 billion kilometers. Diameter: 1,430 miles, or 2,301 kilometers. Length of day: 6 Earth days, 9 hours. Length of year: 248 Earth years. One known satellite, named Charon. Ever since Pluto was discovered in 1930, astronomers have acknowledged that it was a breed apart: Pluto is less than half the size of any other planet. Its orbit is much more inclined and eccentric than those of the other eight. In fact, for the past 20 years it's been closer to the sun than Neptune but will reclaim its title as the farthest planet next month. "We've known for a long time that Pluto didn't fit," said University of Maryland astronomer Mike A'Hearn, who heads the Planetary Systems Sciences Division of the International Astronomical Union. The dilemma deepened in 1992 when astronomers discovered other objects similar to Pluto, balls of ice on the fringes of the solar system that have been dubbed Trans-Neptunian Objects. More than 90 such objects have been identified, and although none of them is as big as Pluto, their existence led A'Hearn and his colleagues to wonder about changing Pluto's classification. "There is no doubt that Pluto is a Trans-Neptunian Object, all the experts agree that dynamically that's what it is," A'Hearn said. That led to the next question: Should Trans-Neptunian Objects be classified formally as minor planets, a category that also includes asteroids such as Ceres, Vesta and Eros? If so, shouldn't Pluto be lumped in with the others of its ilk? A'Hearn canvassed other astronomers by e-mail, hoping that the deliberations would result in a formal decision by the International Astronomical Union. But so far there has been no consensus on whether Pluto should be put on the list or excluded. Marsden said he favored giving Pluto "dual status": It would continue to be recognized as one of the nine major planets, and also take a place of honor among Trans-Neptunian Objects as the 10,000th minor planet. He acknowledged that "there have been movements afoot to try and not do this." But he said it was important to come up with a classification system that made sense. "We've reached the state where (Trans-Neptunian Objects) need to have a permanentization of their status. ... If we're going to start doing that, the whole point is that if you exclude Pluto from consideration in the same sense, it looks rather funny," Marsden said. "You can understand astronomers saying 50 years from now, 'Well, that looks pretty stupid.'" Astronomers on both sides of the debate said the controversy was ultimately about the definition of planethood. Is that definition dependent on mass, or shape, or the way it behaves in a solar system? Depending on the criteria, our solar system could contain eight, 10 or even more planets. "There has just never been a need to make that definition in the past," A'Hearn said. He said the fact that scientists were rethinking Pluto's status was a healthy sign. "I view this as an opportunity to show the public that the whole point of studying the solar system is to explain how it came into being, and as we do that we uncover things that lead us to have to rethink some of these issues," he said. "If we're never revisiting some of these issues, that's a good indicator that our knowledge is not advancing." *IAU Planetary Systems Sciences: Pluto *Pluto-Kuiper Express *Pluto, the Ninth Planet *The Nine Planets *Views of the Solar System *Planetary Photojournal *Your Weight on Other Planets *Planet or Trans-Neptunian Object? Discuss it on the Space News BBS *Looking for life? Look down deep *Dark cave may hold secrets of life *Space station plan in flux again *First images from Subaru Telescope *Gamma ray burst caught on tape *Tour the solar system Should Pluto's status as a major planet be changed? *Yes *No Vote to see results MSNBC =A9 1999 *Terms, Conditions, and Privacy
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 1 Re: Greek Legend Becoming Fact: Charon Prime Target From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@get2net.dk> Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 07:56:59 GMT Fwd Date: Mon, 01 Feb 1999 10:08:48 -0500 Subject: Re: Greek Legend Becoming Fact: Charon Prime Target Source: http://www.msnbc.com/news/233408.asp Stig *** 'Charon was supposed to be the boatman who brings life between this world and the underworld. If there is indeed life on Charon, it seems very fitting with these legends.' DOUGLAS LIN Lick Observatory [Image: This is the clearest existing image of Pluto and Charon, captured by the Hubble Space Telescope. The moon, at upper right, was discovered in 1978. Before that, astronomers could not make out the satellite as separate from the planet.] Charon: Dark horse in search for life Could there be water and energy under ice of Pluto's moon? By Alan Boyle ** MSNBC - Jan. 28 - It's the most distant moon known, out where our sun is a cold point of light. But scientists say Charon, the icy satellite of the planet Pluto, ranks as a prime target in their study of the conditions that could sustain life. Planetary scientists have a short list of worlds in our solar system that could have sustained life at some point in their development. "There have been as many as five habitable worlds," including Earth, said David Des Marais of NASA's Ames Research Center. He said his list included Mars, which scientists believe was once warmer, wetter and Earthlike; Venus, which may have had a more hospitable climate before its atmosphere fell victim to a runaway greenhouse effect; Europa, which may have the solar system's biggest ocean of water beneath its outer shell of ice; and Charon. Charon? The cold moon that whirls around Pluto at a distance of 3.7 billion miles (5.9 billion kilometers) from the sun? The puny world discovered only in 1978, with a mass just 0.03 percent of Earth's, with a diameter roughly equal to the distance from New York to Chicago? Although it seems unlikely, Charon (generally pronounced like the name Karen) just might be capable of harboring life, said Douglas Lin, an astrophysicist at the Lick Observatory. The possibility was raised by data from the Hubble Space Telescope, indicating that Charon's orbit around Pluto is slightly eccentric. Lin theorized that the orientation of Charon's orbit to Pluto's orbit introduced a wobble, analogous to the wobble of a spinning top as it starts to slow down. Whatever the cause, the eccentric orbit means both Pluto and Charon are subject to gravitational tides as they spin around each other. The tides warp both worlds, leading to internal heating. But since Charon is 10 times less massive than Pluto, the tides create more stresses and strains within the interior of the moon. "We estimate that the interior of Charon could be molten," Lin said. "Now, do we have any evidence to suggest this is in fact what's happening? For the time being, we don't have any information. We don't have a very good picture of what's going on." If Charon does have a molten core, scientists say that could provide the energy source required for sustaining life. After all, there are organisms that survive around hydrothermal vents in the sunless depths of Earth's oceans, which are as dark as Charon. Scientists also say life requires liquid water and organic materials and Lin contends that those might be present on Charon as well. "You see plenty of organic material in comets, and comets come from the outer part of the solar system," Lin said. "There probably is no shortage of organic material in the outer solar system." As for water, Lin noted that Charon's surface was apparently more reflective and had "a little bit more of water frost" than Pluto's surface leading scientists to speculate that the moon was covered with ice. If Charon's interior is warm enough, there may be liquid water beneath the ice, Lin theorized. And if that's the case, such waters might be suitable for life, at least on the microbial level. "Pluto, it turns out in Greek legend, was the god of the underworld, and Charon was supposed to be the boatman who brings life between this world and the underworld," Lin mused. "If there is indeed life on Charon, it seems very fitting with these legends." Charon and Pluto are both on the itinerary for a probe known as the Pluto-Kuiper Express, currently on the drawing boards at NASA. The space agency intends to launch the spacecraft in about 2004. It would take 10 years for the probe to fly by Pluto, and then it would continue even farther out, into a ring of ice worlds known as the Kuiper Belt. The data sent back during that flyby could answer at least some of the questions posed by Lin. Even if Charon turns out to be barren, Lin said that each expansion to our solar system's "habitable zone" increases the odds of finding life elsewhere in the universe. "If you took literally our old concept (of habitable zones), you would be very pessimistic indeed to think there would be the possibility of life existing anywhere in the universe," he said. THE PROBLEM WITH PLUTO Over the past few weeks, Pluto has been in the news because of a controversy over its classification. Some leading astronomers said they were a bit miffed over reports that Pluto might be "demoted" from its status as a major planet. "It's not been demoted," said Brian Marsden of the International Astronomical Union's Minor Planet Center. "That never really was the situation." But Marsden acknowledged that the debate was confusing even for some of his scientific colleagues. Pluto facts Average orbit: 3.7 billion miles, or 5.9 billion kilometers. Diameter: 1,430 miles, or 2,301 kilometers. Length of day: 6 Earth days, 9 hours. Length of year: 248 Earth years. One known satellite, named Charon. Ever since Pluto was discovered in 1930, astronomers have acknowledged that it was a breed apart: Pluto is less than half the size of any other planet. Its orbit is much more inclined and eccentric than those of the other eight. In fact, for the past 20 years it's been closer to the sun than Neptune but will reclaim its title as the farthest planet next month. "We've known for a long time that Pluto didn't fit," said University of Maryland astronomer Mike A'Hearn, who heads the Planetary Systems Sciences Division of the International Astronomical Union. The dilemma deepened in 1992 when astronomers discovered other objects similar to Pluto, balls of ice on the fringes of the solar system that have been dubbed Trans-Neptunian Objects. More than 90 such objects have been identified, and although none of them is as big as Pluto, their existence led A'Hearn and his colleagues to wonder about changing Pluto's classification. "There is no doubt that Pluto is a Trans-Neptunian Object, all the experts agree that dynamically that's what it is," A'Hearn said. That led to the next question: Should Trans-Neptunian Objects be classified formally as minor planets, a category that also includes asteroids such as Ceres, Vesta and Eros? If so, shouldn't Pluto be lumped in with the others of its ilk? A'Hearn canvassed other astronomers by e-mail, hoping that the deliberations would result in a formal decision by the International Astronomical Union. But so far there has been no consensus on whether Pluto should be put on the list or excluded. Marsden said he favored giving Pluto "dual status": It would continue to be recognized as one of the nine major planets, and also take a place of honor among Trans-Neptunian Objects as the 10,000th minor planet. He acknowledged that "there have been movements afoot to try and not do this." But he said it was important to come up with a classification system that made sense. "We've reached the state where (Trans-Neptunian Objects) need to have a permanentization of their status. ... If we're going to start doing that, the whole point is that if you exclude Pluto from consideration in the same sense, it looks rather funny," Marsden said. "You can understand astronomers saying 50 years from now, 'Well, that looks pretty stupid.'" Astronomers on both sides of the debate said the controversy was ultimately about the definition of planethood. Is that definition dependent on mass, or shape, or the way it behaves in a solar system? Depending on the criteria, our solar system could contain eight, 10 or even more planets. "There has just never been a need to make that definition in the past," A'Hearn said. He said the fact that scientists were rethinking Pluto's status was a healthy sign. "I view this as an opportunity to show the public that the whole point of studying the solar system is to explain how it came into being, and as we do that we uncover things that lead us to have to rethink some of these issues," he said. "If we're never revisiting some of these issues, that's a good indicator that our knowledge is not advancing." *IAU Planetary Systems Sciences: Pluto *Pluto-Kuiper Express *Pluto, the Ninth Planet *The Nine Planets *Views of the Solar System *Planetary Photojournal *Your Weight on Other Planets *Planet or Trans-Neptunian Object? Discuss it on the Space News BBS *Looking for life? Look down deep *Dark cave may hold secrets of life *Space station plan in flux again *First images from Subaru Telescope *Gamma ray burst caught on tape *Tour the solar system Should Pluto's status as a major planet be changed? *Yes *No Vote to see results MSNBC =A9 1999 *Terms, Conditions, and Privacy
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 1 NASA's Plans In Search For Alien Life From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@get2net.dk> Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 19:11:09 +0100 (MET) Fwd Date: Mon, 01 Feb 1999 10:10:59 -0500 Subject: NASA's Plans In Search For Alien Life Source: Reuters via CNN, http://www.cnn.com/TECH/space/9901/29/astrobiology.re ut/ Stig *** NASA's search for space life begins on Earth [Image: Artist's conception of the Europa Orbiter] January 29, 1999 Web posted at: 5:14 p.m. EST (2214 GMT) ANAHEIM, California (Reuters) -- NASA's search for life beyond the planet may stretch to Mars and Jupiter's moons, but it will start in the depths of the Earth, scientists involved in the project said Monday. The National Aeronautics and Space Administration's new Astrobiology Institute -- a "virtual" institute linking 11 different labs via the Internet -- has come up with its official road map for the search for life. Laid out before a meeting of the American Association for the Advancement of Science in Anaheim, California, the map shows a convoluted course that wends its way through super-hot undersea vents, deep into the frozen Antarctic and through oceans before shooting off toward Mars and Europa, one of Jupiter's moons, and beyond. "Now we have completed a NASA road map for astrobiology," said David Morrison, director of space at the NASA-Ames Research Center at Moffett Field, California. 'We can begin to answer these questions' "It's simply the study of life in the Universe. It is a question of what was the origin and evolution of life, is there life on other worlds, and what is the future of life on Earth and in space," Morrison told a news conference. "The premise is that the space program has reached a point at which we can begin to answer these questions." The Astrobiology Institute is carefully separated from the non-governmental Search for Extraterrestrial Intelligence Institute, known as SETI. NASA had launched a similar project in 1992 but less than a year later Congress put an end to what it considered expensive foolishness. Now the new institute has secured $9 million for this year and $20 million for 2000 to try to determine under what conditions life can survive and thrive, whether these conditions do or ever did exist elsewhere in the solar system, and whether earthlings can make it out there in space. Biologists, chemists, astronomers, physicists and a range of other specialists will team up for what NASA is billing as a unique effort to answer such weighty questions. They will study the surprising findings that creatures can live in above-boiling temperatures in places like deep undersea sulphur vents and the thermal springs of Yellowstone Park, as well as at enormous pressures deep under the Earth's surface, and in what look like frozen wastes at the Earth's poles. Oceans in space? "There are environments on Earth where life does not exist, but not many," said Jonathan Trent of NASA-Ames. He is most interested in the microbes and other small creatures living in the oceans, and points out that 75 percent of the planet is covered by water. "An unbiased exploration of the planet for life would unquestionably begin in the oceans," he said. The possibility of oceans on Mars and Europa are what make those locations good candidates for a search for life. Mars obviously has no ocean now, but might have once, while the Galileo space mission found evidence there might be a subsurface ocean sloshing around on Europa. "There has been an estimate that there could have been as many as five habitable planets in the solar system," David DesMarais of NASA-Ames said. Venus might have been habitable before its runaway greenhouse effect turned it into a steamy caldron, while Chiron, an asteroid near Pluto that was recently promoted to planet status, also has the potential for a liquid ocean, DesMarais said. Microbes rule Jack Farmer, an Arizona University geologist whose team will help direct future Mars missions to collect soil samples, said his group will look for "an ancient fossil record for an early period of Martian history when we think life might have been possible." All of the scientists are clear about what they are looking for, and it is not little green men. "Our strategy for looking for life elsewhere would be exactly like looking for life on Earth," Morrison said. He pointed out that most of the species of Earth -- in numbers and in mass -- are microbes. "We won't bother with these strange little creatures with legs walking about on the surface. We will look for creatures that really matter -- the microbes." Copyright 1998 Reuters Limited. All rights reserved. Related stories: *Space worms come home the worse for wear - November 13, 1998 *Discovery brimming with science projects - October 28, 1998 *Space research: Are benefits worth the cost? - July 17, 1996 Related sites: Note: Pages will open in a new browser window *Astrobiology: the study of the living universe *American Association for the Advancement of Science *International Space Station: Science *NASA's Ames Research Center External sites are not endorsed by CNN Interactive. CNN Programs: *Earth Matters Sunday 1:30pm - 2:00pm ET (10:30am - 11:00am PT) *Science & Technology Week Saturday 1:30pm - 2:00pm ET (10:30am - 11:00am PT)
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 1 Astronomers Seek Another Earth From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@get2net.dk> Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 19:26:12 +0100 (MET) Fwd Date: Mon, 01 Feb 1999 10:26:49 -0500 Subject: Astronomers Seek Another Earth [List only] Source: Christian Science Monitor Service via the Nando Times, http://www.nandotimes.com/noframes/story/0,2107,13186 -22254-156364-0,00.html Stig *** Astronomers search for another Earth Copyright =A91999 Nando Media Copyright =A91999 Christian Science Monitor Service By ALEX SALKEVER HONOLULU (January 31, 1999 11:31 a.m. EST http://www.nandotimes.com) - For thousands of years, humans have thought about and searched for worlds outside our solar system - for planets like ours that can support life. But since the advent of modern astronomy centuries ago, detection of distant planets has proved to be as difficult as finding grains of sugar on a beach. Stars, billions of times more brilliant than the worlds that circle them, make planets all but impossible to find. And decades of intense observation yielded only false alarms, earning planet-hunting a reputation as a backwater of astronomy. During the past three years, however, this perception has radically changed. Through advances in technology, an improved understanding of planetary behavior and increased access to better telescopes, astronomers have found 17 planets since 1995. These discoveries have revolutionized planetary science, forcing scientists to revise long-held theories about the universe and making planet-searching one of the hottest fields of astronomy. "The major change has been access to large telescopes like the Keck 1/8a telescope in Hawaii with a mirror 30 feet across 3/8," says William Cochran, an astronomer at the University of Texas at Austin. "With big scopes, you get a lot more light. And the faster you can get light, the faster you can detect these planets." In many ways, the recent discovery of what could be a nascent solar system 220 light years from Earth is a symbol of this planet-hunting renaissance. Images of the would-be solar system were first captured by the Keck telescope. Later, using the Hubble Space Telescope, University of Hawaii astronomer Bradford Smith discovered that there might be a planet within the new solar system. He found the planet by searching the heavens in a different way - by looking at disks of dust around stars. He sifted infrared images of the star 220 light years away, dubbed HR 4796A. Inside its disk sat a ring that looked like hula hoop. "When we pulled the image of this star ring up on the computer screen, it looked like Saturn," Smith says. "It was like, 'Wow!' We had not really expected that." The same image that floored Smith brought a room full of normally sedate astronomers to their feet for a standing ovation at the American Astronomical Society meeting earlier this month. Indeed, the find is a breakthrough. According to previous theories, no planetary candidate should be there. The star is only 8 million to 10 million years old, supposedly far too young to have developed a large, far-flung planet like the one indicated in the Hubble images. But that's really no great surprise. Beyond the quixotic object found by Smith in the gloaming of deep space, astronomers are finding other planets that do not conform to traditional models. For one thing, many are massive - as large as Jupiter but with short orbits closer to their host stars than Mercury is to the sun. Theoretically, Jupiter-like planets were supposed to be found orbiting farther away from their host stars, where they would not be sucked in by the stellar bodies' strong gravitational pull. Many of the newly discovered planets were also found to have elliptical orbits - unlike those of planets in our solar system, which are largely circular. Theorists are now scrambling to rebuild planetary theory based on these observations. They have already come up with some explanations. "Hot Jupiters" might be migrating toward their host stars, destroying other planets that lay in their paths, scientists say. Meanwhile, the elliptical orbits of extrasolar planets might be caused by the gravitational pull of either a nearby star or planet. In addition to learning more about planets themselves, scientists have learned more about how to look for them. Before the binge in planetary discovery, money to finance planet searches was hard to come by. "For a long time, whenever anyone asked for money to find planets, everybody laughed and threw their proposal away," says William Borucki, a researcher at the NASA/Ames Research Center in California. Then in October 1995, two astronomers in Switzerland noticed that the light spectrum of the star 51 Pegasi was wobbling. Upon closer examination, the scientists concluded that the phenomenon was caused by a large planet orbiting very close to the star. After that, the wobble - previously only a theory - became a telltale sign for planet hunters and helped resuscitate the field. In fact, new research shows that 5 percent of the stars surveyed show evidence of planets. Still, astronomers are far from a consensus that an Earth-like body exists. "It is still being argued today by many people that our own solar system is an absolute anomaly," says Smith. "On the other side of it, there are many people who believe that when you form stars you form planets at the same time." In the next decade, a new generation of highly sensitive telescopes will turn their mirrors heavenward. Most will dedicate sky time to planet searches. Scientists are also perfecting new techniques that use less-expensive equipment to locate planets. And direct imaging of distant stars with infrared instruments promises to produce more snapshots of stars and planets, too. But all these new high-powered tools still can only give scientists evidence that planets exist - they cannot give a direct picture of an Earth-like planet. "The problem is Earth-like planets are small and whatever effect they have is going to be much more difficult to detect," Smith says. Copyright =A91999 Nando Media
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 1 Who Would Joe Firmage Thank? From: Sue Kovios <bradford@globalserve.net> Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 17:27:34 -0500 Fwd Date: Mon, 01 Feb 1999 10:33:23 -0500 Subject: Who Would Joe Firmage Thank? To The List and Archive Readers, etc.: I personally would thank everyone involved in this field and any other field involved directly or indirectly. I have asked Mr. Firmage (Mr.? Heck I'm older than him but I respect him) to respond to the e-mail below which I have sent him. I don't expect an answer back, but I do feel there should be a little more credit to all of you. --- Dear Joe, I welcomed you to the field of ufology a little while ago. I appreciate your concerns that this is something that should be opened up to a greater degree than it has. Your efforts have not gone unnoticed, nor should they. I do give you credit. I've been following your 'spotlight' on the web, tv, etc.....and unless I've missed something, where's the gratitude to all the oldtime researchers, the one's who have accomplished so much with no funding, no money, no spotlight, the one's who spend sometimes 20 hours a day in front of a computer getting the messages out their on mailing lists or on the web, whose families are less than understanding but are sacrificed and put on the backburner, only to be destroyed in the pursuit? Where is the spotlight for those who 'have' gone public, appeared on tv shows, written books, have given in to ridicule and slander, lost jobs, therefore their livelihood, due to others' labels of this being a 'cult' or a psychological disorder? Please don't take this the wrong way, but there are many in the field of ufology that deserve to share your spotlight, but never will have that opportunity because they don't have the funding/cash flow, and must therefore remain in the background, while you are deemed a 'god send' to this field and are recognized for your accomplishments, which are parallel to or a compilation of much of what others have accomplished. This is not the 'beginning of a long process'. This is a process that has been carried on for over 50 years, before you were born, and from what some believe, a process that has been around as long as mankind and has probably been questioned and studied that long as well. You share the spotlight with many and your credentials do not put you above them in any shape or form. You are only sharing in this endeavour, it is not yours. I am all for someone who has the money and guts to go forward to push what everyone else has accomplished and that's what I see happening here, only everyone else is still in the shadows, except for a chosen few. You have chosen not to respond to EBK (UpDates) to appear on his radio show 'Strange Days... Indeed' (on CFRB being one of the largest radio stations in the country) which would be an enormous asset to you, and yet you choose only a small circle of lesser knowns to the general population. Errol doesn't get paid for what he does. He does what he does out of a shear feeling of necessity and many times does sit in front of his computer for 20 hours a day, the _only_ reward being thanks from list subscribers for having someone like him getting the information out. That makes it worth his while. You say your only agenda is to get this information out there but I question that, as there are many who have done just that for many years and still only lurk in the shadows. Not everyone does it for the fame and glory, they 'are' humble and don't seek it. Many give up their homes, families, and jobs to do it, and many not by choice but out of circumstance because it is 'their' calling. Your calling has been accepted by the media because of your status while others have to sit back and be poo pooed because they are an 'average' Joe in the eyes of the public. I appreciate what you have done for the field as far as waking up the non-believers, etc. via the media and I give you credit. But you aren't the only one who deserves it. As far as marketing goes, 'The Truth' has no monetary value in many eyes and those who do it for no monetary gain (be it for ufology or other business ventures) are the real credits to ufology. If one makes money off books to support themselves and at the same time gets the truth out there, as unbelievable as it may seem (because they're just the average joe), there's nothing wrong with that, as long as they're making an honest living. If it only supports their travel to interview, investigate, research and publish, they're not doing it for monetary gain. It's their livelihood. You will always have another way to support your livelihood, you're young enough, you've established yourself in the computer industry and you don't need someone else's support if you choose ufology is not your venue. You are devoting part of your life to this now, but not forever, and that's the difference between you and those who have done it all their lives, and being in your financial position makes you capable of being diversified and able to move on to another thread of life that interests you. 'The Truth' is not marketable, it's not a $64,000 question, there are no prizes to be won, it's not a game show. The only two things that should ever profit from it are the mind and mankind. It's not open to salesmen. You are leading a horse to water to make him thirsty, not to drink. Okay I've signed up, I've got my free gift (the condensed version of The Truth), now what. I leave you with a quote from Theodore Roosevelt 26th President: "It is not the critic who counts, not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short again and again because there is no effort without error and shortcomings, who knows the great devotion, who spends himself in a worthy cause, who at the best knows in the end the high achievement of triumph and who at worst, if he fails while daring greatly, knows his place shall never be with those timid and cold souls who know neither victory nor defeat." I'm not saying you haven't worked hard for your accomplishments, I'm sure you have, but what about all the others who have worked just as hard, if not harder, and even helped you get where you are in this field with their books, their research and findings, their ideas, their commitment to this before you were born, all to introduce 'you' to this field? Sincerely, Sue Kovios "Never doubt the power of a small group of committed people to change the world. That's about the only way it has ever happened in the past." Margaret Mead
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 1 UFO Video Footage - Site From: Ndunlks@aol.com Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 19:07:17 EST Fwd Date: Mon, 01 Feb 1999 10:47:25 -0500 Subject: UFO Video Footage - Site This is a very nice site, with some very interesting footage. I seldom recommend a site, however I do this one. Steven L. Wilson, Sr ndunlks@aol.com http://multimedialibrary.connect-2.co.uk/unexplained/videos.htm
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 1 Response To Concerns Over IUFOMRC In Roswell From: Bob Bush <Webmaster@IUFOMRC.org> Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 12:21:05 -0700 Fwd Date: Mon, 01 Feb 1999 10:50:33 -0500 Subject: Response To Concerns Over IUFOMRC In Roswell [Non-Subscriber Post] This posting is submitted at the request of the IUFOMRC: RESPONSE TO ALLEGATIONS CONCERNING THE INTERNATIONAL UFO MUSEUM AND RESEARCH CENTER (IUFOMRC) IN ROSWELL, NEW MEXICO Recently, several letters, ads, articles, etc. have surfaced on the net and in print, concerning the IUFOMRC. This response is a one-time and one-time only effort. Any additional letters, ads, articles, etc. will not be addressed. On September 28, 1998, the Museum hired an Office Coordinator, with Board approval. The decision to hire a new Director was put on the back burner until the business end of running the Museum could be organized. The Museum, recognized locally as a mom and pop organization, wanted to change its image into a professionally run organization. The Board recognized the need to instill policies and procedures in preparation for continued growth and the potential need for additional staff. The new Office Coordinator�s credentials include, but are not limited to, the following: * BA in Sociology from Loyola-Marymount University in Los Angeles, California. * MA in Human Resources Development from Webster University in St. Louis, Missouri. * MA in Human Resources Management from Webster University in St. Louis, Missouri. * MA in Computer Resources Management from Webster University in St. Louis, Missouri. At no time has the Office Coordinator been addressed as the Director, Acting Director, or Interim Director. In fact, when approached with the idea of possibly working into the Director position, the Office Coordinator let the co- founders know she was not interested. Everyone at the Museum pitches in when needed, to perform the duties of a Director. On October 28, 1998, one employee was terminated; severance pay was given. One volunteer was asked to sever all ties with the museum. This particular volunteer had been asked to leave on two previous occasions, and at no time was ever a paid employee. These two departures were not the decision of one individual. The decision to terminate the employee and to sever ties with the volunteer was unanimously voted on by an Executive Committee. This committee included the three co-founders and a Board representative as well as other staff members. On November 4, 1998, the agreement with our then webmaster was terminated (with severance pay). This termination was due to the fact that the webmaster carried out a directive from the volunteer who was no longer associated with the Museum and did so without notifying the Museum. At this time, the Museum had also learned that the website domain was actually registered to the webmaster instead of to the Museum. This was unacceptable, as we were paying her to maintain the Museum�s website, not her own. The Museum would have corrected this problem whether or not the webmaster was to be terminated. In changing the domain name, proper procedure was followed. There is nothing unethical or deceptive about this procedure. You simply request a form, fill it out, notarize it, and send it in. Internic either approves the change or not. In our case, Internic approved the change. In addition, the Museum is now facing a lawsuit that could have been avoided had the webmaster followed through with her assigned responsibility of notifying the Museum when questionable material was about to be placed on the net. The decision to terminate this webmaster and hire a new one, was once again an Executive Committee�s decision. The Museum made a verbal request of the webmaster, for a listing of copyrighted material to include the dates of the copyright. She was informed that any copyrighted material, that was not a "work for hire", would be taken off the website. No list was ever received. Yes, we currently have two websites. However, the general public is not aware of this. The old site has been left up while the new site is under construction. As soon as we are ready to make the switch to the new site, anyone calling up iufomrc.com will either get a message containing our new address, or will simply receive the new site. As for the former Director, in her resignation letter to the Board dated August 18, 1998, she states that her resignation, effective August 20, 1998, was due to her new assignment with the Ronald McDonald House in Lubbock, Texas. As for "heavy-handed" or "Gestapo" tactics at the museum: * It is the Museum�s policy to have the Office Coordinator open and appropriately disburse the mail. This policy applies to all mail received at the Museum unless it is stamped "Personal and Confidential." * It is the policy of the Museum that all matters concerning personnel issues, overheard conversations, or any information gained not be disclosed to others, inside or outside, the Museum. * As far as looking through everyone�s hard drives and e-mail, this is not true. Not only is this statement ridiculous, but there�s not enough time in a day for this kind of policing of the staff. * One researcher, visiting the library, was asked to leave by one of the Museum�s co-founders. This co-founder was well within rights, as the researcher was involving herself in personnel issues, which were none of her concern. Other allegations: * Based on the current level of information being issued over the net, should other ufologists choose to not visit the world�s largest and most complete UFO library, it�s their loss. * What other professional would develop a product for a client worth $300,000.00 and then settle for a mere $200.00 a month as compensation? * The current Office Coordinator makes almost 50% less income than at her previous position. * It does not take a ufologist to manage the Museum offices. However, knowledge of the Roswell Incident and other data pertaining to UFO�s in general, has increased tremendously since starting at the Museum. In summary: The Museum is doing fine and attendance is still high. There were 185,713 visitors through the Museum in 1998. On an average, we had 357 visitors per day. We also averaged visitors from 25 states and 5 countries per day. The library project is moving right along, and we should be announcing our grand opening early in the spring. Mr. George Fawcett, one of the Museum�s benefactors, is scheduled to be here in February and will be our guest lecturer on Saturday night, February 13th. Mr. Sabo, one of our other benefactors, recently sent us a sizeable donation, earmarked for the new library. As for those who want to continue trying to smear the names of those associated with the Museum and who wish to continue making allegations: life is, fortunately or unfortunately, all about choices. Your choice is unfortunate. The choice to believe or not to believe, is fortunately, our right. To reiterate, no further response will be forthcoming from the IUFOMRC.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 1 Betty Hill 'Coming In For A Landing' From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@get2net.dk> Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 03:28:23 +0100 (MET) Fwd Date: Mon, 01 Feb 1999 11:03:49 -0500 Subject: Betty Hill 'Coming In For A Landing' [List only] Source: Foster's Online, http://www.seacoastnh.com/arts/please020299.html Stig *** Portsmouth's Betty Hill, 'gran'-dame of UFOs,' may be coming in for a landing By J. DENNIS ROBINSON Seacoast Rambles ** Betty Hill is sick of talking about UFOs. The story of her 1961 abduction by aliens in the White Mountains of New Hampshire is old news. But the phone in her Portsmouth home never stops ringing. Continued at http://www.seacoastnh.com/arts/please020299.html
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 1 Re: Apocalypse Pretty Soon From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net> Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 17:41:06 -0800 Fwd Date: Mon, 01 Feb 1999 10:57:19 -0500 Subject: Re: Apocalypse Pretty Soon Dear Mr. Heard: >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >From: Alex Heard <aheard@wired.com> >Re: Apocalypse Pretty Soon >Please check out my Web site: http://www.apocalypseprettysoon.com >Apocalypse Pretty Soon, the book, hits stores in February 1999. I just visited your website. It's a scream! - LH
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 1 Premature Birth & Abduction? From: Leanne Martin <leanne_martin@hotmail.com> Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 18:47:30 PST Fwd Date: Mon, 01 Feb 1999 11:06:02 -0500 Subject: Premature Birth & Abduction? G'day List, Is any one aware of any statistical link between premature birth and claimants of abduction? Or perhaps even late and C-section births? Do researchers even bother to look at issues like these when interviewing an 'abductee'? Regards, Leanne.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 1 Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality From: Peter Brookesmith Mendoza <DarkSecretPB@compuserve.com> Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 22:49:34 -0500 Fwd Date: Mon, 01 Feb 1999 11:11:43 -0500 Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality With the compliments of the Duke of Mendoza: >Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 04:31:53 -0500 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> >Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality While I'm here, I'll pick you up on a complaint you made in this thread to someone else that no skeptical commentator seems willing to accept that abductees were telling the truth plain and simple (words...that effect). Not picking _on_ you, but just to make the position clear to some of Great Obtuse out there: this ain't quite true. Look at my book again! The point being that the _honest_ account as told by anyone, about anything, is not necessarily a complete or accurate account of what happened, i.e. it is not the truth. No news to you that I don't think you've actually been abducted by actual aliens, but that doesn't mean you are being dishonest in relating your experience(s) or putting that interpretation on them. Nor does it mean, either, that my interpretation of them is true, real, the bees' knees, etc., but it's the best I can honestly do. I had thought I had labored this distinction at some length in the book. I _believe_ that is the position most thoughtful skeptics would take. Even that wicked nasty debunker, my good friend Phil Klass, reserves his venom for abduction investigators, not abductees. This is consistent with his position on UFO investigators in general, as opposed to UFO witnesses in general. Now to John's message itself: <various mighty snips real and implied> >Now I would like to ask; >Not being psychic, and never having seen anything like those >characters before (at least not before the UFO abduction >experience) _how_ could I have reproduced _exactly_ what was >written by the others on those pages? Unless we all saw the same >thing under the same circumstances. As far as I can see, it >cannot be explained in any other plausible way. It's too freaky. >It would just be too much of a fluke/stretch for something like >that to be explained any other way. >Now here's the kicker: I saw that writing on board a UFO. >(1976) The 'others' claim to have seen theirs in the same >place.(on board a UFO) and at different times, and different >locations. I considered it a _confirming_ revelation and >compelling evidence for the 'reality' of the original >experience. >What do _you_ make of it? It's quite a cute conundrum. Yes it is, and I don't pretend to have The Answer, on this or many other aspects of "abductions" (see above). Since you asked in this public place, I have to say here that I have a couple of ideas - one testable, the other harder to test - that _may_ lead to a mundane explanation, or not as the case may be (that is called experiment, and research). But I can't explain them here without giving away what I know about that "alien script". This is a slightly crazy situation; life is suffused again with a whiff of the surreal. But expect some private mail. What I can point out, however, is that when you say "I saw that writing on board a UFO", you mean "under hypnosis I recalled being on a UFO and seeing that writing". And, presumably, the others who recalled that script did so under hypnosis too. Assuming hypnosis _is_ an altered state of consciousness, which some dispute, then it's possible to argue that certain archetypal patterns, some visual, some narrative, maybe some aural and tactile for all I know, will emerge in that state. I think the idea is testable, in principle, too. Way back when, I think it was John Powell who suggested getting a cryptanalyst to work on these various scripts. If they are plentiful enough and the samples large and consistent enough it should be possible to test for repeated patterns, such as should appear in any symbolic writing. Of course, if the patterns exist, one might still need the Alien Stone of Rosetta to discover whether they are offering you new ways with fries, cosmic wisdom, or a helpful comment on your new wave and set. I'd also point out (to the world in general) that there is a difference between witnessing a smash and grab raid on a shop in the diamond district in real life, and being hypnotized to enhance - perhaps accurately - memories of details of that event, such as number plates on cars, and having a conscious memory of some dodgy characters arriving in a Jaguar, but no more - and then being hypnotized in order to find out what happened after that. One technique focuses on stuff that is known to have occurred, and seeks to sharpen the memory. The other seeks to go beyond conscious memory, and possibly beyond corroboration. (Let's say this is the sole witness, so who's to say the broken window and missing diamonds have any connection to that Jag? The tendency to narrative, Mr Rimmer reminded us a while back, is the only link, and the creator of the link(s), besides.) Yes, there are limits to the analogy, and yes like Greg I do not want to get into another tired debate about hypnosis. We have probably gone through it all before and there is nothing quite so endemic to this subject as a tendency to recycle, and go in circles, and get nowhere, which I sometimes think is the point, too. Nonetheless the difference between these purposes & applications of hypnosis is crucial, and arguing from specific forensic cases in which most of the facts are not in dispute, to cases where virtually nothing is known _except_ from hypnosis, don't wash. >Ah yes, you are an honorable lad in _all_ the ways that count >Mendoza. Thanks. Heh heh. What do you know about the ones that don't? best wishes Palantype D. Marprelate Cryptic Scribbler
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 1 Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality From: John W. Ratcliff <jratcliff@worldnet.att.net> Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 23:12:01 -0600 Fwd Date: Mon, 01 Feb 1999 11:40:54 -0500 Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com> >Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 09:52:20 EST >To: updates@globalserve.net >Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality Kevin wrote about many problems with hypnosis <snipped> and then continued with this commentary about memory: >No, she would understand the difference in what is being >discussed here. Psychologist Ulric Neisser had an opportunity to >study "flashbulb" memories, those memories of important events >like the Kennedy assassination or the Challenger explosion. He >gave his freshman students a short questionnaire the day after >the Challenger exploded asking about where they were when they >heard, what they were doing. Three years later he gave those >same students, now seniors, the same questionnaire with a >single, additional question. How accurate to you believe your >memories to be? According to the research, a quarter of the >students had no memories that were accurate. In one case a >student said he had been home with his parents when it was clear >he was away from home at college. >When confronted with the inaccuracy of these memories, the >students argued with them, even though they had provided the >original information within hours of the event. One student >said, "I still remember everything happening the way I told you. >I can't help it." She was defending the memories that were >clearly an invention of her own mind about the event. How ironic Kevin, I have never read a more effective debunking of Roswell 'witness' testimony than your own words above. John W. Ratcliff ---------------------------------------------------------------- "I'd go to hell before I'd believe in a god who would send me to hell for not believing in him."
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 1 Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality From: Bill Weber <koran@cchat.com> Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 00:57:58 -0500 Fwd Date: Mon, 01 Feb 1999 11:44:58 -0500 Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 08:19:44 -0800 (PST) >From: Rebecca Keith <xiannekei@yahoo.com> >Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >>From: Bill Weber <koran@cchat.com> >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >>Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >>Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 22:43:04 -0500 >>May I ask a few sincere questions here? >>It would seem that comparison of "tiny, unpublished details" >>would be a legitimate method for research. Why not? But the >Bill, it would be a very significant area of research for >someone who was skilled in picking apart the data. As the Duke >mentioned in another response, a serious attempt was made to try >to check this data out, but the suggestion was turned down by >Budd. I don't believe other researchers were contacted, but I >doubt the answer would be any different. I'm certainly not >qualified to do that kind of research, but I do think it is a >valid avenue of inquiry. >But we also must think about what else we might learn from such >a study. What about all the tiny, unpublished details that don't >agree? I'm sure there are some of those. What would that mean? >>above statement seem to set the bar for "significant details" >>very high - maybe unattainably high. Of course the abductee >>respondents shouldn't know each other, nor should they contact >>each other, but must they have lived all their lives in absolute >>isolation to avoid some obscure, media influence? >No, I think that is impossible, but I do think we must take the >influence of the media or pop culture into consideration when >analyzing the data. >>similarities between stories for those respondents who have >>lived normal lives then insignificant? What characteristic of >>abductee or ground rule for a "significant detail" would get the >>skeptical reader past the "Weaknesses" section of the research? >I can't answer that. I'm not embarassed to say that I am >skeptical of abduction stories, but that doesn't mean that I >don't believe them. All it means is I don't know what to think. Hi, Rebecca, Thank's for the sincere and candid response(s). I have no idea what the results might mean, whether details were significantly similar _or_ different. I do think it would be more than interesting to see a serious (and large) study done on consciously recalled details. My only concern was that the insincere either argue about the method only after they find they hate the conclusion, or they tend to find their answers before they ask the questions. You know, the same old story. Thank's again, Rebecca, and I'm very sorry to hear of your unfortunate experience. Bill
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 1 Re: Abduction The Issue Of Reality From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com> Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 01:51:13 EST Fwd Date: Mon, 01 Feb 1999 11:52:10 -0500 Subject: Re: Abduction The Issue Of Reality >From: Leanne Martin <leanne_martin@hotmail.com> >To: updates@globalserve.net >Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 14:37:26 PST >>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com> >>Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 08:55:29 EST >>To: updates@globalserve.net >>Subject: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality [was... 1999 UFO Alien...] >>The experience leaves one exceedingly disturbed, is entirely too >>realistic and remains in the memory longer than the worst of >>recurring dreams. IF it continues off and on over a lifetime, >>the results of such a personal encounter are fascinatingly >>personal. It is like getting raped, altho being a guy, I can >>never truly relate to that. ><snip> >>Dr. Gesundt. >>A very old fool for my age. >G'day Jim (& List), >A nice read Jim (btw - sorry for miss spelling your name the >other day - I realised it as soon as I hit 'Send'). >In all seriousness . . . >Do you know whether you needed a lot of hospital visits as an >infant? What have your parents told you of your first two years >of life? Were you a premature baby who needed life support? Leanne.... Hi and by the way.... There were no hospital visits at all... not until age 7 and that was years _after_ these dream/memories/events. >It strikes me as a possible cause of your dream as a toddler. I >can understand if you see this as too intrusive. Not at all. For some reason, I lost the desire to hide these events. I no longer care about anonymity. Doesn't matter. Besides, when under the affluence of inkahol, specifically Gripple Dripple con gas, all the memories sort of blur into an LSD haze... There was never an ambulance even near our home, yet I was taken by one.... and had never seen one. As for hospitals strategically located just _above_ #4031 Wickham Avenue in the Bronx, well, need I say more? TV, while invented :) was not in our home until I was 10 years old. We didn't even have a car until I was 10. >Does anyone know of any correlation between being a prem-baby >and 'abduction' experiences? As far as being a premature infant... interestingly I was the opposite. I arrived _very_ late in the pregnancy and was delivered by C-section. As in life in general, I gave my poor mom a rough time. She was in labor for seven days... that must've hurt a lot... poor thing told me about this over and over... but only after I was a dozen or so years old. No... no hospitals, no doc offices (except a lady pediatrition and she was TALL). No labs, no ambulances, no nothing. Just a happy childhood.... and no, no mistreatment of any kind. Lotsa love. Lotsa nurturing. So, let's add it all up. 1) I was late and delivered by C-section 2) Never saw a hospital or lab until after these perceived events 3) Ditto with an ambulance (yet I went to mom that very morning and asked her why the ambulance took me away to the hopsital up there last night... 4) No child abuse (grandma would have murdered the bastard(s) 5) rarely left the house and the pediatrition came to us. 6) Not only was I not premature they had to lift me out. I just was not interested in leaving that nice, warm, safe place. 7) My part of the delivery was a breeze... no squeezing thru a narrow opening, no birth trauma. As I am told the story, I was just laying in there minding my own business, when all of a sudden the lights came on. Well, what was I to do. What would you do had it been you?!? I let out with a blood curdling scream and told that _huge_ surgeon to mind his own beeswax and put me back.... too damned noisey out here! Now I have it on good authority that they were wearing green. So not having seen any little green men, only pastey short dudes, I can testify that it was not them. As to the insectoids, unless there was a praying mantis infestation in mommy's tummy, it could not be from that nine plus months in there. So, I guess that leaves me with seeing things like funny looking vehicles and hospitals with undercarriages over my house. Funny thing is though, I was only three or four. What a forkina imagination! Not only am I good lookin, I am also smart as a seven year old.... even to this day. I know. It doesn't make sense no matter how you look at it. BTW, does it matter if I was or was not breast fed? I was. Too bad I was too young to remember that. To this day I always keep my eyes closed whenever I drink milk. I wasn't always so smart! Jim
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 1 Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net> Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 23:57:57 -0500 Fwd Date: Mon, 01 Feb 1999 11:55:02 -0500 Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 09:04:10 -0800 (PST) >From: Rebecca <xiannekei@yahoo.com> >Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >I think Betty Hill's interview was interesting and I'm glad >Peter mentioned it. I happen to think that Betty's opinions are >important as she was at the forefront of the abduction >phenomenon. She has seen things change, just as Little Richard >has seen rock & roll change. These are disposable people who can >be just thrown away because their experiences happened a long >time ago. However, their opinions should be put in the proper >context and I don't think Peter was holding Betty out to be an >expert. Whether Betty Hill is an expert is one question. Mine would be, with all respect to her, somewhat different. I wonder if she has any real information about current abduction research at all. Of course she was once in the forefront of the abduction phenomenon, but that doesn't mean she's kept her information current. If we believe her account of her experience, she saw a UFO. But she also (or so I've read) got in the habit of looking at the sky at night and misidentifying all sorts of things as alien craft. I might have made my point about Little Richard clearer. He might not have been an expert on rock & roll even at the peak of his career in the '50s. That is, he might not have known the origins of rock, might not have known all its regional varieties, and might not have been able to trace every step of its history from the blues onward. There's a difference between experience that commands respect and opinions that command respect. Not everyone with important experience has opinions that can always be trusted. (Little Richard is the perfect example of that, since he's so famous for overstating his historical importance. >On the other hand, I've seen abductees come into the abduction >>world knowing less than you'd think. More than once I've had an >>abductee friend call in a panic, after having read in an >>abduction book something he or she never dreamed someone else >>knew about. In one case, the abductee had gone through hypnosis >>with Budd, and hadn't believed a word she'd come out with. Then >>she picked up The Threat, and -- not even caring yet about the >>apocalyptic message -- just went into shock reading a couple of >>random details that were exactly like what she said when >>hypnotized. She'd been to a support group meeting or two, and at >>least one party with abductees, and had every chance, you'd >>think, to learn many details of abduction stories. But she >>hadn't, partly because abductees, being in most respects normal >>people, don't spend every waking hour talking obsessively about >>their abduction memories. >Greg, I had a full-blown panic attack upon hearing the symptoms >of abduction from a presentation Budd gave in Houston. I learned >those symptoms could be symptoms of many, many things. In my >case, I think they were just that. Rebecca, I wasn't saying that this abductee's experiences have to be real because she felt panic. I was using her panic to demonstrate how surprised she was by some standard abduction stuff she read in "The Threat." My point was that even people who spend time in the abduction scene don't necessarily know what's in all the abduction books. >>Important area for current investigation (I'm working on this): >>Dave Jacobs' claim that abductees always put certain seemingly >>random -- and obscure -- details in the same order. Dave has all >>his hypnotic sessions transcribed, and so his claim, if it's >>correct, ought to be possible for him to document. >I'd be curious about how many details were different. Me, too. Anyone who asks about similarities in abductee reports also has to ask about differences. When I reviewed "The Threat" for the MUFON Journal, I asked Dave many questions about how many people had reported the shocking stuff in the book. I also asked how many had reported other alien agendas. (He said none had.) Greg Sandow
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 1 Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net> Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 23:30:54 -0500 Fwd Date: Mon, 01 Feb 1999 11:57:58 -0500 Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 23:01:28 -0600 (CST) >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net> >Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >>As for "confirmatory items >previously unreported in the UFO literature" (my phrase, not >yours), I always wonder why we're not subjected to the real >nitty-gritty? That is, do many abductees report soiling their >underwear when they're abruptly lifted out of bed and >transported through a solid wall into a round spaceship, >whereupon they're rudely greyhandled by aliens and helpers in >blue uniforms? I think I would! Yet to the best of my knowledge, >I can't think of a single case in which a good crap in the pants >has come to light. Not prurient, just curious. Advanced as they >are, I feel sure that the aliens have come to grips with this >unexpected side-effect of their activities. Indeed, maybe this >explains the presence of the helpers in blue, after all. They're >there to clean up! Another good question from Dennis. I've never heard this reported, and will inquire. Of course, we can imagine that the aliens, with their advanced technology, or as some adjunct of mind control, can stop people from soiling themselves. But then one abductee I know says she gave birth to a hybrid baby unexpectedly, while she was being walked down a corridor in a UFO by two aliens. The baby, she says, just slipped out. One alien ran to grab it, and the other one tried clumsily to clean her. Their body language, she said, suggested that they were upset at this unplanned turn of events. So maybe the aliens can't control absolutely everything. (And in fact alleged alien mistakes are some of the more humorous entries in abduction lore. People are supposedly returned home wearing the wrong clothes, or with their clothes put on backward.) Greg Sandow
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 1 Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net> Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 00:15:42 -0500 Fwd Date: Mon, 01 Feb 1999 12:02:27 -0500 Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >>Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 19:19:32 -0500 >>From: Peter Brookesmith Mendoza <DarkSecretPB@compuserve.com> >>Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >>To: <updates@globalserve.net> >>Anyway--all this is a long-winded way of saying that these >>"details" haven't been discussed by skeptics, and by this one in >>particular, for practical reasons rather than lack of scruple or >>inability to cope with the shocking implications, de da. As John >>Rimmer points out in another post, most people even inside >>abductology don't know what these "details" are except in the >>most general terms. C'mon, Peter. We had many discussions while you were working on your book, and in one of them I told you about Dave Jacobs's most striking general claim, that details of abduction accounts fall into chronological patterns. As he's said (I'm paraphrasing here, but his words weren't too different), "When I hear A, I don't have to say a word, and I know I'm going to hear B, C, and D." I asked you if you were going to call Dave, and ask him to document that. After the book was finished, you told me you hadn't had time to do it. So when you say you don't know what these details are, the first question has to be, "Why didn't you ask?" Greg Sandow
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 1 Re: Who Would Joe Firmage Thank? From: Sue Kovios <bradford@globalserve.net> Date: Mon, 01 Feb 1999 07:35:00 -0500 Fwd Date: Mon, 01 Feb 1999 12:31:19 -0500 Subject: Re: Who Would Joe Firmage Thank? >Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 17:27:34 -0500 >To: updates@globalserve.net >From: Sue Kovios <bradford@globalserve.net> >Subject: Who Would Joe Firmage Thank? >To The List and Archive Readers, etc.: >I personally would thank everyone involved in this field and any >other field involved directly or indirectly. I have asked Mr. >Firmage (Mr.? Heck I'm older than him but I respect him) to >respond to the e-mail below which I have sent him. I don't >expect an answer back, but I do feel there should be a little >more credit to all of you. >--- <snip> From: Joe Firmage <jfirmage@uswebcks.com> To: SKvs <bradford@globalserve.net> Subject: Re: Sue Kovios Here, Please Respond Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 23:25:55 -0800 Sue, this is a fair statement. But remember that this process has just begun for me. I've given this process a large jolt, and have been only one equivalent piece in a large puzzle of many deeply commited and brilliant people. Everyone deserves their credit in time and I deserved to be reminded of this... Joe
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 1 Re: MAGONIA Monthly Supplement No. 11 January 1999 From: Tim Matthews <matthews@zetnet.co.uk> Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 12:55:51 -0000 Fwd Date: Mon, 01 Feb 1999 12:39:50 -0500 Subject: Re: MAGONIA Monthly Supplement No. 11 January 1999 >Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 18:35:24 +0000 >To: "updates@globalserve.net" <updates@globalserve.net> >From: Mark Pilkington <m.pilkington@virgin.net> >Subject: MAGONIA Monthly Supplement No. 11 January 1999 >MAGONIA Monthly Supplement >(or the supplement formerly known as ETH Bulletin) >Interpreting contemporary vision and belief <snip> >HUDSON VALLEY UFOS >Philip Klass has kindly sent me some articles and press cuttings >about the Hudson Valley UFO reports and this has prompted me to >take a closer look at them. It is now becoming clear to me that >the reason why ETH ufologists are not very interested in these >sightings is that they already know the explanation, and it has >nothing to do with alien spacecraft. >The problem for ETHers is that it was quickly established that >there were many amateur pilots in the Hudson Valley area, and >that some of them had got together to practice formation flying >at night. Their skills improved with practice and the number of >aircraft in the formations increased so that they presented an >impressive sight in the night sky. This is such utter nonsense I don't even know where to start. A witness sees the craft around 100ft from his car and gets out - he proceeds to move close to the boomerang-shaped object and notices the internal structure of the craft in front of him. Other witnesses including policemen - in the company of several hundred motorists on the way home see the boomerang-shaped craft in 1984 and subsequently. What we have in this bulletin is debunking nonsense entirely unrelated to what people have seen. What is more; there is evidence that the flights of small aircraft started AFTER the initial and best sightings. I even know where the bloody thing flew from - it's still there now; Fort Drum near Watertown in Northern NY state. This bulletin is as bad as some of the believer nonsense that emerges from time to time. You do NOT KNOW what you're talking about! What about the Puzzouli film ; was that a formation of light aircraft? In case you hadn't noticed advanced LTA craft have been developed and flown for thirty years and easily account for the reported maneuvers of the Hudson Valley "UFO". There was very little evidence in witness statements of high performance and in over half the cases the craft just moved away slowly. Several witnesses actually though they'd seen a large blimp........ <snip> >Chthonic fantasies. For several years some British ufologists >have been aping their American colleagues by indulging in >fantasies about secret underground bases - some of which might >even conceal aliens or crashed saucers, who knows? The custom >over here is to return to this topic whenever there is a >shortage of UFO reports; if you see nothing in the sky then look >underground. Of course, there are real underground bases and >there has been a lot of rubbish written about the one near RAF >Rudloe Manor, a place with which ETH ufologists are obsessed. >This base, intended to be a seat of government in the event of >nuclear attack, has recently been opened to the media and >pictures of it have appeared in the press and on television. The >fantasy about the underground railway from Rudloe Manor to >Downing Street probably arises from the fact that the Box Hill >railway tunnel is adjacent to the base. A number of similar >bases have already been opened to the public. At this rate there >will soon be nothing left for the fruitcake tendency to >fantasise about. And did you see that report on Channel 4 news about the new and much improved secret bunker in Wiltshire for use in a National Emergency situation? Underground facilities exist - they're a military fact of life. Some fantasy! <snip> >UFOtrash. Each member of the Magonia editorial team is equipped >with a delicate scientific instrument, known as a Crap Detector. >I should have left mine switched off when I tuned in to Channel >5 on 4 January to watch Stranger than Fiction: The Great UFO >Conspiracy. No sooner had the familiar and, er, distinctive, >features of Stanton Friedman appeared, and before he even opened >his mouth, my Crap Detector indicator showed "Overload" and its >chips were fried, or whatever the technical term is. The other >persons talking utter garbage in this programme were Wendelle >Stevens, Bruce Maccabee, Nick Pope, Timothy Good and Robert >Oechsler. Need I say more? You ought to use the crap detector on your own bulletin!
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 1 Photography Contract Of The Future From: Bob Shell <76750.2717@compuserve.com> Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 08:44:16 -0500 Fwd Date: Mon, 01 Feb 1999 12:43:20 -0500 Subject: Photography Contract Of The Future Don't laugh, you may be asked to sign something very much like this in the near future: http://digitaljournalist.org/issue9902/friend.htm Bob
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 1 Re: 'Sorry, We'll Be Late' From: Brian Straight <brians@mdbs.com> Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 10:40:11 -0500 Fwd Date: Mon, 01 Feb 1999 12:52:45 -0500 Subject: Re: 'Sorry, We'll Be Late' >Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 20:08:50 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time) >From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@YorkU.CA> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: Re: 'Sorry, We'll Be Late' >This New Scientist article which suggests that the rate of large >gamma-ray bursts which are sufficient to wipe out all life in >our galaxy is about once every few hundred million years has >many big implications. I'm sure I read somewhere that there was a relativistic 'beaming' effect from a gamma ray burst--i.e. most of the radiation erupts primarily in opposite directions perpendicular to the combined magnetic field of the colliding objects. In this case, sterilization would occur along the path of the beam for those inhabited zones in relative proximity to the burst. Inhabited zones outside the path of the beam would be relatively unaffected. Does anyone have the physics knowledge to confirm the above impression? Brian
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 1 Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net> Date: Mon, 01 Feb 99 10:59:17 PST Fwd Date: Mon, 01 Feb 1999 12:56:57 -0500 Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com> >Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 09:52:20 EST >To: updates@globalserve.net >Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >>From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net> >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >>Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >>Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 18:13:13 -0500 >>>From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com> >>>Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 12:53:44 EST >>>To: updates@globalserve.net >>>Subject: Re: 1999 UFO Alien Abduction Conference Announced >>>>Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 10:13:53 -0800 (PST) >>>>From: Rebecca Keith <xiannekei@yahoo.com> >>>>Subject: Re: 1999 UFO Alien Abduction Conference Announced >>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >>Stuart Appelle, in his lengthy JUFOS paper on the abduction >>evidence, suggests that non-abductees should be asked to imagine >>details like this, to determine whether there's some mental >>template or cultural predisposition that leads people toward >>these repeated abduction details. If you ask non-abductees what >>color the uniforms would be, and most of them say that they're >>blue, then it's much less impressive when abductees report that. >Which is what Alvin Lawson did and was castigated for "leading" >his subjects into an abduction scenario. Yes, Lawson's work can >be seen as flawed (yet it is cited in some of the psychological >journal articles), I think the problem with Lawson's work was best summarized by the late D. Scott Rogo, who wrote: "His process of selection was ... about as scientific as asking subjects to describe an imaginary cat, collecting reports of real cats, extracting whatever common descriptions there might be, and then concluding that all cats are imaginary." Kevin is certainly right: Lawson's severely flawed work is cited uncritically in some psychological journal papers, proving that scientists are not beyond the opportunistic use of bad science to combat hated ideas. I hope that Kevin's forthcoming book is honest enough not to be entirely one-sided: in other words, to criticize critics as vigorously as it criticizes proponents of the abduction phenomenon (not, by the way, "the abduction phenomena"). Jerry Clark
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 1 Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net> Date: Mon, 01 Feb 99 12:33:49 PST Fwd Date: Mon, 01 Feb 1999 13:06:42 -0500 Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >From: Bill Weber <koran@cchat.com> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 00:57:58 -0500 >>Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 08:19:44 -0800 (PST) >>From: Rebecca Keith <xiannekei@yahoo.com> >>Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >>>From: Bill Weber <koran@cchat.com> >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >>>Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >>>Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 22:43:04 -0500 >>Bill, it would be a very significant area of research for >>someone who was skilled in picking apart the data. Rebecca and Bill, In fact, someone skilled at picking apart the data has done so at great length, namely Thomas E. Bullard, author of the massive two-volume UFO Abductions: The Measure of a Mystery (1987; a new, updated version is in the works) as well as numerous papers and articles in IUR, JUFOS, Magonia, and elsewhere. His next article appears in the next issue of IUR, where he responds to the spurious charge that abduction testimony simply mirrors the concerns of the abduction investigator. It simply is impossible to discuss the abduction phenomenon meaningfully without having immersed oneself in Bullard's work. Bullard is to abduction scholarship what Francis James Child was to ballad scholarship. Jerry Clark
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 1 Re: Apocalypse Pretty Soon From: Alex Heard <aheard@wired.com> Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 09:38:51 -0800 Fwd Date: Mon, 01 Feb 1999 13:03:41 -0500 Subject: Re: Apocalypse Pretty Soon >Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 17:34:43 -0800 >From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: Re: Apocalypse Pretty Soon >Perhaps I misunderstood you. If so, I apologize. >The title " Apocalypse Pretty Soon " should have >been the tip-off, clearly tongue in cheek. >While the zanier elements in these realms need a >good airing out, I hope the more serious and >careful studies are not tarred with the same brush. Thanks for the note. And no: I'm not dumping everybody into the same bucket. Jerry Clark patiently taught me the difference many years ago. Thanks, Heard Please check out my Web site: http://www.apocalypseprettysoon.com Apocalypse Pretty Soon, the book, hits stores in February 1999.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 1 Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net> Date: Mon, 01 Feb 99 12:41:36 PST Fwd Date: Mon, 01 Feb 1999 13:10:12 -0500 Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 23:30:54 -0500 >>Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 23:01:28 -0600 (CST) >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >>From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net> >>Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >>>As for "confirmatory items >>previously unreported in the UFO literature" (my phrase, not >>yours), I always wonder why we're not subjected to the real >>nitty-gritty? That is, do many abductees report soiling their >>underwear when they're abruptly lifted out of bed and >>transported through a solid wall into a round spaceship, >>whereupon they're rudely greyhandled by aliens and helpers in >>blue uniforms? I think I would! Yet to the best of my knowledge, >>I can't think of a single case in which a good crap in the pants >>has come to light. Not prurient, just curious. Advanced as they >>are, I feel sure that the aliens have come to grips with this >>unexpected side-effect of their activities. Indeed, maybe this >>explains the presence of the helpers in blue, after all. They're >>there to clean up! Dennis, I don't know if this is a serious question, but I'll act as if it were. Let me ask one in return: How many people in other traumatic situations -- combat, assault, rape, and the like -- volunteer the information that while being terrorized and traumatized they accidentally defecated or urinated? Jerry Clark
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 1 -=[For The Record]=- Roswell UFO Museum and From: Wendy Connors <ProjectSign@EMAIL.MSN.COM> Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 10:49:31 -0700 Fwd Date: Mon, 01 Feb 1999 13:25:11 -0500 Subject: -=[For The Record]=- Roswell UFO Museum and Greetings to the List: As the discussion regarding the International UFO Museum and Research Center is taking place on various Lists and Websites, I would like to take this opportunity to give clarification as to what I know to be true regarding my visits to the IUFOMRC. In early July of last year (1998), I and two other historical researchers received from George Fawcett a letter of authorization granting unrestricted access to the materials he and Elmer Robert Sabo donated to the IUFOMRC. Each of us received a personal, signed copy of this letter. This letter was also sent to Deon Crosby, former Director of the IUFOMRC, telling the museum that we researchers would soon be visiting the museum in order to assist in reviewing the collection and to give any and all assistance the museum would need as to archiving and displaying Mr. Fawcett's and Mr. Sabo's collection. Upon arriving at the museum we were warmly and graciously welcomed by Deon Crosby, Laura Stephey, Dennis Balthaser, Max Littel, Walter Haut and others. We were allowed full access to the library and consequently spent four + days reviewing the collections of Mr. Fawcett and Mr. Sabo. During this time Ms. Crosby, Ms. Stephey and Mr. Balthaser went out of thier way to ensure our comfort and that any needs we had were met. Since our time was limited we did not have an opportunity to go through every wonderful file in the collection, but almost 20,000 pages were copied to add to other various UFO historical archives. Many of these documents were shared with other researchers when we returned to our respective homes following our visit to the IUFOMRC. Many items of rare and great ufological historical interest were discovered. These items were identified and the information about these items were given to the librarian in order to assist the IUFOMRC in ensuring that they be preserved in archival quality plastic sheet protectors, etc. Other items, such as books, were identified and pulled so that the museum could prepare them for appropriate archiving. We contacted Bob Girard at Arcturus books seeking assistance, which he graciously gave, for the IUFOMRC to determine their monetary value. At the same time we sat down with Ms. Crosby, Ms. Stephey and Mr. Balthaser and offered the following suggestions that we felt would benefit the research library: A. All rare books should be separated from the general library shelves, but made available to researchers upon request. This should include a sign-out/in procedure to ensure that such items not develop legs and leave the library. B. UFO periodicals such as newsletters, magazines, etc. be sent to a bindery where they could be hardbound by volume for easier storage and to prevent wear and tear by pulling them from file cabinets which would quickly cause their deterioration. C. The original personal letters of George Fawcett, to and from early UFO researchers, should be archived in plastic sheet protectors and placed in binders. These too should require a sign-out/in requirement and not removed from the library proper and made available to select historical researchers. At the same time we recommended that a xeroxed hard copy of these letters be made, bound and available to researchers to use when the orginals would not be necessary. D. All audio recordings on reel to reel tape should be dubbed to cassette for availability to researchers and the reel to reel tapes be archived in inert plastic boxes and preserved. E. Photographic slides should be sent to a reputable photographic developer and prints made of them. These prints should be housed in archival quality photo binders and the orginal slides archived. F. The Fawcett/Sabo UFO investigation case files should be xeroxed, placed in binders and available to persons visiting the library. However, the orginals should be placed in archival quality sheet protectors and archived. G. Display of items from the Fawcett/Sabo collection should be rotated on a yearly basis. These items should be placed in archival quality display frames/fixtures/etc. There were many other suggestions offered. As we were ready to leave the museum, a sizeable monetary donation was given to the museum library. Although nothing was ever suggested or implied by Ms. Crosby, etc., and the fact that two of us used our own personal copiers, toner and paper, this donation was given freely to cover the cost of duplication in which the museum normally would have charged 10 cents a copy and received a profit for the library coffers. We felt that this was only fair and proper to do. Ms. Crosby, etc. were pleased to receive this monetary windfall without having to use it to replace paper, toner, etc. At the time of our visit to the IUFORMRC library, Ms. Crosby told us that the museum sincerely appreciated our efforts and expertise in sharing ufological knowledge in which many of them at the museum were unaware of and that we were welcome to return at any time. She also said that the museum would honor Mr. Fawcett's desire that we have complete and unrestricted access to his materials in the future. Since our time was limited and I was only four hours from Roswell, I would continue to visit the library and review all new additions Mr. Fawcett would be sending over the course of the next several years. I would also make copies of those items that are of an historical nature with the other two researchers. I again visited the IUFOMRC a couple of weeks later with my fellow researcher/collaborator and friend, who came to visit and to assist in the second Loedding interview. We arrived at the library several days following the Loedding interview. He is a very professional ufologist and has worked many years as the Director of an Historical Society. Highly educated and versant in grant writing and funding procedures, he applied for the position of director for the IUFOMRC. I introduced him to Mr. Glenn Dennis and Mr. Max Littell. Mr. Dennis accepted his resume, looked at it and said, "All this educated people's resume stuff is way over my head," as he waved his arms over his head; the resume in his hands. He then said he would review it and get together with me and my friend after lunch. Mr. Dennis did not return the rest of the day to talk to my friend even though Mr. Dennis knew that we would be spending only one day at the museum. My friend had traveled at great personal expense to visit the IUFOMRC and to submit his resume. Later, Mr. Bathaser and myself apologized to him at dinner for the unprofessional behavior of Mr. Dennis. Ms. Crosby had left the IUFOMRC quite suddenly. She had taken a job in Texas as a director of a Ronald McDonald House. This was very sad since she was a very gracious and astute director of the IUFOMRC while there. She made everyone who visited feel welcomed and comfortable and went out of her way to ensure that researchers where given any and all assistance necessary during their stay. The same graciousness and cordiality was given by Ms. Stephey and the former Investigator for the IUFOMRC, Dennis Balthaser. They were not only people who gave of their time to the museum, but made a constant attempt to keep up on what researchers were involved in, what new developments within the UFO community were and asked a billion questions in their attempt to be adequately informed in the field of Ufology. They gave honest and concise answers, to not only visitors to the museum, but to researchers questions as well. At the time of my third visit to the IUFOMRC just two weeks later, I found the situation 180 degrees from just a month earlier. When I visited the library to review the new materials and to continue reviewing areas not completed on the prior visit by the three of us a month earlier, I was warmly welcomed by Ms. Stephey and Mr. Balthaser. However, they were both very taciturn and nervous. I inquired as to how things were going at the IUFOMRC. They both remained tight-lipped, but the feeling of uneasiness was there. Discussions between us were made in generalities instead of the prior openness and cordiality when Ms. Crosby was the director. I did find out that Ms. Stephey had been injured in an automobile accident a week earlier and was in constant pain. She was under the care of several doctors. While sitting in the library going through the Fawcett materials the new office manager, Glenda Schaffer came in. I smiled, but she gave no response other than to look at me. Gone was the friendliness and good will given by Ms. Crosby and the others from just a month before. Later, I asked Ms. Stephey what was going on and who the woman was that came into the library. She said that she was the new office manager and was filling in for the directors position until a new director could be hired. I stated to Ms. Stephey that Ms. Schaffer didn't appear to be very friendly or cordial. Later, Ms. Stephey told me that Ms. Shaffer had wanted to know who I was and why I was in the library. I immediately went to Ms. Schaffer's office and introduced myself and to explain why I was there. She did not appear interested when I told her that I was one of the researchers Mr. Fawcett allowed access to his materials and that the museum could use as a resource for displaying his materials and archiving of his collection. She told me that she had made some changes and that researchers would be required to check with her office prior to using the library. I was, to put it mildly, dumbstruck. I certainly didn't object to her "new requirements," but I certainly could understand the new attitude pervading the museum. She told me that she had never seen Mr. Fawcett's letter and would not adhere to his wishes even if she found such a letter from Mr. Fawcett. Before leaving the museum I was approached by Mr. Dennis and asked what changes I felt the museum should do in order to be more professional. I answered that the museum would benefit greatly by hiring a qualified director who was well versed, not only in ufology, but in grant writing and funding scenarios. I again recommended my friend. Mr. Dennis asked me what my friend would desire as to a salary. I replied I didn't know, but I would check on this. Mr. Dennis also asked me what I thought should be done with the library. I gave him suggestions. Then, Mr. Dennis, Ms. Stephey, Mr. Balthaser, myself and a few others visited next door to the offices that would be converted to the new library facility. These last few months have been surreal. I have seen the IUFOMRC go from a warm, charming place with caring and knowledgable people attempting to bring professionalism to its rank, to what can only be described as another tourist trap. Gone are the few knowledgable ufologists and people who kept the museum running well on a day to day basis. It is really sad. Wendy Connors Project SIGN Research Center InterLink Site Directory http://www.evansville.net/~slk/InterLink.html Wendy Connors Project SIGN Research Center InterLink Site Directory http://www.evansville.net/~slk/InterLink.html
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 1 UFO ROUNDUP Volume 4 Number 5 From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> Date: Mon, 01 Feb 1999 20:28:42 -0500 Fwd Date: Mon, 01 Feb 1999 20:28:42 -0500 Subject: UFO ROUNDUP Volume 4 Number 5 UFO ROUNDUP Volume 4 Number 5 February 1, 1999 Editor: Joseph Trainor Masinaigan@aol.com TOMB OF OSIRIS DISCOVERED NEAR THE GREAT PYRAMID? An archeological team led by Dr. Zahi Hawass has reportedly found what may be a pre-Dynastic underground tomb near the Great Pyramid, a Danish newspaper reported last week. Dr. Hawass, Egypt's Undersecretary of State for the Giza Monuments, while on a lecture tour in the Scandinavian countries, spoke to a gathering of notables, including Queen Margarethe, at Dansk Industri's pyramid-shaped glass convention center in Copenhagen, Denmark on Sunday, January 24, 1999. According to the Danish newspaper Elektra Bladet, Queen Margarethe "appeared at Dansk Industri's pyramid-shaped glass hall, at a lecture by Dr. Zahi Hawass, the world's leading Egyptologist and head of the Giza excavations." "Between the Sphinx and the Khefren Pyramid, Hawass and his staff have discovered a hitherto unknown subterranean shaft, reaching a depth of 29 meters (96 feet). In the bottom of the shaft they found a stone sarcophagus surrounded by water. If Hawass's theory holds, he has found the grave of Osiris, the (Egyptian) god of death." "The queen was listening enthusiastically from the first row. Since 1962, when she was a young crown princess and tried her hand in Egypt as an amateur archeologist, she has had an ardent interest in the pyramids of Egypt." "The finds that he (Dr. Hawass) were describing were so great that his voice was almost tearful." "Dr. Hawass ended his lecture by discreetly inviting the queen to visit his excavations at Giza, as Prince Henrik did last year." The article also stated that Dr. Hawass would formally release the information through the Egyptian media "in a couple of months." (See Elektra Bladet for January 24, 1999, "The Queen attends pyramid meeting," by Freja Ludvigsen. Many thanks to Stig Agermose for forwarding the newspaper article.) (Editor's Comment: Last year the big news was the detente reached between Dr. Hawass and his one-time critics, Graham Hancock, Robert Bauval and John Anthony West. In Atlantis Rising magazine, Number 17, page 15, Hancock and West published a joint letter, that stated in part, "We are now absolutely convinced that the precious monuments of the Giza plateau could not be in better hands than those of Dr. Hawass. We have seen him at work. We have seen his passion and genuine love for the pyramids and the Sphinx. And we have seen that above all else he is determined to ensure the preservation of the monuments for the future. There are no conspiracies. There are no hidden finds. There is no skullduggery." One question, boys--Did your friend Dr. Hawass mention even one word about this "Tomb of Osiris?") UFO AND SKY BOOM IN PORTAGE, INDIANA On Monday, December 14, 1998, at 7:33 p.m., a 19-year-old man heard a mysterious aerial boom in Portage, Indiana (population 29,060), a city located 22 miles (35 kilometers) southeast of Chicago. He reported, "I deliver pizza for a local pizza shop...I was driving north on Swanson Road, approaching Stone Avenue where I could turn left or right. As I was coming to a stop at Stone, I heard a semi-loud bang. It sounded like a big firework but the tone was deeper. Then I heard something that sounded like a brief, strong wind, and it repeated seven or eight times. I remained still at the stop sign while listening to these sounds." "A couple of seconds later, a white light rose off the ground to the northeast of me. It looked like it was about a mile away. It went straight up about 100 yards, stopped for a few seconds, then shot westward--it looked like it could have been going 100 miles in a fraction of a second." "When I got home, I told my girlfriend what I saw. And she told me that earlier in the night she was visiting her parents at their house on Central and Willowdale and she heard a loud bang." (Many thanks to Kenneth Young of Cincinnati UFO Research for forwarding this report.) MORE UFO SIGHTINGS REPORTED IN ITALY UFO sightings continued in Italy last week, with three more encounters in different areas of the peninsula. On Saturday, January 23, 1999, at 8:15 p.m., seven young people spotted a trio of UFOs in the night sky over Pescara, a port city on the Adriatic Sea about 165 kilometers (102 miles) east of Rome. Two female witnesses, Paola and Elisa, said they saw "three luminous stars of a red color high in the sky, flying toward the southwest. Two of them (UFOs) broke away from the formation and travelled in a circular pattern. Then they zaigzagged, appearing at several different points in the sky. The third unidentified object remained visible for five minutes." (See the Italian newspaper La Stampa Siciliana for January 24, 1999, "Avvistati, venerdi.") Also on Saturday, January 23, at 3:10 p.m., a man who was saying prayers at a family graveside at the Cimiterio Comunale in the city of Piacenza, 110 kilometers (66 miles) southeast of Milano (Milan), spotted a UFO in the sky. "He saw a cylindrical object passing over the city. The object flew from the northeast to the northwest, passing in a diagonal line over Piacenza with a constant linear trajectory. The sighting lasted about one minute." On Sunday, January 24, 1999, at the Parco Nazionale de Vesuvio, near Napoli (Naples), about 200 kilometers (125 miles) south of Rome, four people climbing Monte Somma mountain at 11 a.m. "saw a brilliant sphere of colors ranging from a metallic silver to an incandescent red. At just past the hour, this object appeared at several different points in the sky without seeming to move from point to point. The witnesses were adamant that this object was not the planet Jupiter. One witness testified that the object appeared to rotate on its own axis." (Grazie a Guiseppe Piccoli, Davide Ferrara ed Alfredo Lissoni de Centro Ufologico Nazionale per questi rapporti.) USAF JET FIGHTER CRASHES IN NORTHERN JAPAN On Thursday, January 21, 1999, "a U.S. Air Force fighter slammed into a wooded area in northern Japan in the second crash in as many days involving American military planes." "The pilot suffered minor injuries after ejecting from the jet." "The F-16, from the U.S. Air Force's Misawa air base, crashed at about 1:30 p.m. local time in a forest 85 miles south of the city of Misawa," which is located 560 kilometers (350 miles) north of Tokyo. "The pilot, whose name was not disclosed, parachuted to the ground. He suffered a minor head injury, said a spokesman for Japan's Foreign Ministry. The pilot was being taken to Misawa air base and was listed in good condition, the Air Force said." (See the Attleboro, Mass. Sun-Chronicle for January 21, 1999, "US fighter crashes in Japan; pilot rescued," page 9.) (Editor's Comment: Yes, readers, that's the same Misawa air base from which three Japanese Mitsubishi fighter jets went missing last autumn. A red spherical UFO was seen near the spot where the first two Japanese fighters vanished.) LAKE TADD MYSTERY CAUSES FUROR IN MINNESOTA Early Sunday morning, January 17, 1999, Loisa Rhode "was awakened by a sonic-boom type noise." Ms. Rhode's apartment is on the second-floor of an apartment house overlooking Lake Tadd in Atwater, Minnesota (population 1,053. Ms. Rhode "discovered the strange hole in the ice" of Lake Tadd. Two days later, on Tuesday, January 19, she phoned the Atwater city office and reported the strange event. "'They waited to report the event because they were afraid all their friends would think they were loony,' city clerk Goldie Smith told Reuters." According to the West Central Tribune of nearby Willmar, Minnesota, "A flying saucer, little green men and signs of non-human life were found Saturday afternoon (January 23, 1999) in Tadd Lake in Atwater. The discoveries were made by divers in search of an object that plummeted from the sky last weekend, creating a unique star-shaped hole in the ice." "As nearly 500 spectators and a fleet of metro media watched from behind the yellow police tape that circled the open water, the divers with wet suits and 80-cubic-foot oxygen (scuba) tanks strapped to their backs slid into the frigid lake." "For nearly 45 minutes the Hutchinson-area divers, who had been valuably briefed by a geologist to pick up anything the size of a grapefruit, dove to the lake bottom feeling for objects." "There was a festive mood in the air as families with snack coolers, local firefighters, police, DNR (Minnesota Department of Natural Resources--J.T.) personnel, a local deputy, geologists from Bemidji and spectators from Atwater and as far away as Minneapolis watched as the divers bobbed in the water." "The non-human life form was a turtle--the first thing divers plucked out of the muddy bottom of Tadd Lake." "The 'saucer' was a rusty metal bowl that, when flung like a frisbee, would probably fly into the garbage heap." "The little green men were three plastic toy soldiers a prankster reportedly threw into the lake. Divers secured the men, which were surreptitiously hidden from the media and the public by a member of the divers' top-side crew." "'It wasn't anything we were looking for,' said Bob Stepien, one of the divers, who was eager to get into a warm building after emerging from the four-foot-deep water. 'Looks like just some junk. A few rocks, a turtle, cold ice...I don't know that there's anything more down there.'" "'It was cold, muddy and dark,' said Neil Brady, another diver, who admitted he really didn't expect to find anything. 'If anything could fall in at a high velocity, I'm sure it could be buried down there. The bottom is soft, and you can only dig so deep.'" "Bob Roulet, the third diver, said he's done a lot of diving before 'but never with an audience. He and the other divers made a joint agreement that if they 'saw anything glowing, they'd let it be.'" "Police chief Reed Schmidt said the Tadd Lake case is a mystery that demands further investigation and an answer. 'Just like The X-Files, we have to solve the story.' But their next foray into Tadd Lake will probably occur in the summer time." "Marc Ross, assistant Atwater fire chief, said he was disappointed nothing unusual was found in the lake. 'But it sure was fun,' he said, 'At least people and media were here for something that wasn't tragic.'" Ms. Rhode "watched from the window of her second-floor apartment overlooking the lake as the recovery took place. She said she was disappointed that nothing more than a handful of rocks were found. 'I've enjoyed this, but I am disappointed.'" Atwater is on Highway 12 approximately 83 miles (135 kilometers) west of Minneapolis. (See the West Central Tribune of Willmar, Minn. for January 25, 1999, "No meteorite found in Tadd Lake--yet." Many thanks to Errol Bruce-Knapp and Stig Agermose for forwarding the newspaper article.) (Editor's Comment: This is the second "meteor hits lake" story within a month. On December 24, 1998, a similar incident happened at Parsippany Lake in northern New Jersey. For more details, see UFO Roundup, volume 4, number 2 for January 11, 1999. In last week's issue, your editor asked what weird events might happen just in time for the Blue Moon. Well, wonder no further, readers. Here they are...) MYSTERIOUS TIGERS ON THE PROWL IN NEW JERSEY Police in Jackson Township, New Jersey (population 1,100) shot and killed a 431-pound Bengal tiger Wednesday night, January 27, 1999 following a flurry of frantic telephone calls from frightened residents. "The five-year-old male tiger made a sudden appearance Wednesday afternoon in a neighborhood near the (wildlife) preserve. The first sightings set off a wild search by police, state troopers and authorities using helicopters and night-vision equipment." "With families instructed to stay indoors, sharpshooters killed the roaming Siberian on Wednesday night." "An autopsy showed the animal was desperately hungry and hadn't eaten for two days. But the animal bore no markings. Owners of Six Flags Great Adventure amusement park and safari, which is nearby, said its nine tigers are accounted for." Police then suspected another local private preserve, the Tigers Only Preservation Society, owned by Joan Byron-Marasak, "known locally as the Tiger Lady," which "is licensed to own 23" tigers. "Federal, state and local officials executed search warrants and reported counting only 17 tigers on the grounds of the private Tigers Only Preservation Society." "Byron-Marasak--who has denied that the dead 431-pound cat could have strayed from her 12-acre Ocean County preserve--insists she owns 20 tigers and that three died last year of old age. She blamed poor record-keeping for the discrepancy." "Authorities yesterday said Tigers Only has a spotless record and that their inspection yesterday (January 29, 1999)--involving a dozen officials from four agencies--found the animals well fed and cared for." (See the New York Daily News for January 30, 1999, "Escaped tiger mystery,' by Ralph R. Ortega and Owen Moritz.) The first sighting took place early Wednesday afternoon. "A woman on Wright Debow Road just north of Route 195 in the sprawling township called police at about 1:40 p.m. so say she thought she saw a tiger in her backyard." "Officers found large paw prints in the woman's yard--and at about 5:30 p.m., one spotted a large animal nearby." "Police shot the tiger with tranquilizer darts but the drugs weren't enough to stop it. They were worried they'd have to shoot to kill." "Tiger experts from nearby Great Adventure Wild Safari Animal Park were helping state police and Jackson Township cops to capture the animal." "But Great Adventure says its nine Siberian tigers are all accounted for, and the tiger belongs to someone else." (See the New York Post for January 28, 1999, "Cops tail tiger in Jersey" by Bill Sanderson, page 12.) "State police officers killed the animal after tranquilizer darts missed their target." "During the height of the tiger scare Wednesday, authorities visited the Tigers Only Preservation Society but hurriedly left the grounds when they got word over their radios that the tiger had been spotted nearby." "Another Fish, Game and Wildlife official, Rob Winkle, said that one officer saw that part of Byron-Marasak's fence 5-to-6 foot wire mesh fence was down," which led police to suspect the Society of being the tiger's place of origin. "'Her outer-perimeter fence was not adequately maintained,' Winkle said, 'Part of her fence was down.'" (See the New York Post for January 29, 1999, "Cops eye cat-lovin' 'Tiger Lady' in Jersey scare" by Maria Malave and Gersh Kuntzmann, page 3) Ms. Byron-Marasak has repeatedly denied that the tiger killed Wednesday came from her private preserve. Not only is the tiger's point of origin a mystery, there appears to be a discrepancy in the paw prints. They were first identified as coming from a female Siberian tiger with a weight of 350 pounds, while the animal shot and killed was a male Bengal tiger weighing 431 pounds. "'If it's not hers, whose is it then?' said Pat Hart, who lives down the street." "'I don't feel safe living here, knowing there's a possibility that one can get out,' said Suzanne Fiorello, a mother of two who left Brooklyn for Jackson Township," located about 60 miles (100 kilometers) south of New York City. While police searched the woods of Jackson Township, another strange big cat incident took place on the other side of the continent, in southern Oregon. "Several cougar sightings caused officials to post warnings throughout the town" of Shady Cove, Oregon (population 1,351), located on Highway 62 approximately 36 miles (57 kilometers) east of Grants Pass. "Concern was piqued Monday (January 25, 1999) when authorities trapped a cougar under a deck near the Rogue River. Residents were being asked to accompany their children to and from school buses. Joggers and walkers were urged to use extra caution." (See USA Today for January 29, 1999, page 11-A.) (Editor's Note: Similar "phantom cat" sightings occurred in Decatur, Illinois in July 1917 and June 1965. See the book WEIRD AMERICA by Jim Brandon, E.P. Dutton, New York, N.Y., 1978, page 78.) THOUSANDS OF BIRDS FALL FROM THE SKY IN NORTHERN LOUISIANA On Saturday, January 23, 1999, thousands of grackles, known locally as blackbirds, began falling dead from the sky near Bastrop, Louisiana (population 13,916), a city on Highways 2 and 139 approximately 323 miles (517 kilometers) north of New Orleans. By ones, twos and dozens, the grackles "have been landing in yards and along a five miles stretch of Louisiana (Highway) 425 since Saturday." The fall of dead grackles continued for five straight days, through Thursday, January 28, 1999. "Either encephalitis or another virus, pesticide or avian botulism may be causing the deaths of thousands of grackles...It could take days or weeks to determine the true cause." (See USA Today for January 29, 1999, page 11-A) This was the second mysterious mass demise of birds during the past six months. On October 30, 1998, in Tacoma, Washington, "About 300 starlings dropped out of the sky. Neither poison nor disease was the cause. The birds all suffered crunched chests and blood clots in hearts and lungs. Since starlings fly in tight formations, some speculated they had smashed into the side of a large truck, or perhaps a wind gust had thrown them to earth violently." (See the Houston Chronicle for October 31, 1998, "Bird deaths still mystery." Many thanks to William R. Corliss of Science Frontiers for the item, which appeared in issue Number 121, January-February 1999, of Science Frontiers newsletter.) ROUNDUP CORRIGENDA Sorry about the date typo in last week's lead story. It should read 1999, not 1998. Also, Australian ufologist Diane Harrison is affiliated with the UFO Australian Research Network Hotline. Ross Dowe informs me that Australasian UFO Hotline is a registered name and trademark of Australia's National Space Centre. Thanks, Ross, for sending in your clarification. from the UFO Files... 1880: THE STRANGE DOOM OF LOUIS STONEHOUSE One of the strangest incidents in the history of Lake Ontario took place on November 17, 1880 aboard the coal-carrying schooner Garibaldi. "The Garibaldi was bound for Toronto from Fairhaven, New York with 150 tons of coal. She sailed the length of the lake under storm canvas, blown by the screaming ice-laden wind, before dropping her hook (anchor--J.T.) outside the harbor to wait for better weather before trying to enter Weller's Bay," Ontario, Canada. "For 15 terrible hours the Garibaldi safely rode out the howling gale. After her anchor cable finally broke, the crew tried to sail the beleagured vessel into the harbor, but their efforts were in vain." "Driven by a screeching west wind, the schooner blew hard onto an offshore sandbar. Battered by the waves, the old schooner began to break up. The ship's yawl was smashed to kindling by a massive boarding sea, preventing any effort to abandon her. Some of the crew were eventually taken off by local men using an old lifeboat, but the boat was too rickety to make another trip through the surf, leaving the rest stranded on a dying schooner." "All of the remaining crew, except for one, climbed high into the frozen rigging and lashed themselves tight in the hopes of survivng the storm. The mate, Louis Stonehouse, doubtlessly muttering curses against the fury of the lake, went below the deck." "For the men aboard the old schooner, the long night was filled with horror. Towering waves crashed into the hull, sending freezing spray flying over the ship. Ice formed heavy on the deck and caked thick on the rigging. Hour by hour, the ice built up higher and higher on the Garibaldi until, when the cold dawn finally broke, she was more ice than wood." "When a rescue party eventually made it out to her, they found the men in the rigging still clinging to life, but only barely." "Louis Stonehouse was a different story. Down below they discovered the old mate standing silently in the cabin, frozen solid in a block of translucent ice. His boney hands were raised high over his head, as if in a last desperate effort to ward off the shimmering ice demons." No one was ever able to explain how the Garibaldi crew, exposed to freezing spray and wind chills well below zero, survived up in the rigging, while Louis Stonehouse, down below in the warmer cabin, became embedded in a coffin-sized block of ice. The strange doom of Louis Stonehouse remains one of Lake Ontario's weirdest mysteries. (See the book HAUNTED LAKES by Frederick Stonehouse, Lake Superior Port Cities Inc., Duluth, Minnesota, 1997, pages 147 and 148.) FUN UFO WEBSITES Ian Darlington says the Cornwall UFO Research Group (CUFORG) has a new website up and running. Check it out at http://www.interweb-design.co.uk/cuforg/ Keep up with NASA's latest new space science projects at this site -- http://spacescience.nasa.gov Giorgio Soulkalos announced a new website for the Archeology, Astronautics and SETI Research Association (AAS-RA). Feel free to look over their website at http://www.aas-ra.org Don't miss the newest UFO photos from Toronto, Canada, provided by Jennifer Jarvis and her research team. They're the latest addition to the gallery at our parent site, UFOINFO. Stay awhile and peruse all of the photos, features, news stories and links UFOINFO has to offer. Drop in at http://ufoinfo.com Back issues of UFO Roundup can be read, accessed and downloaded from our webpage. Feel free to drop in any time at this URL: http://ufoinfo.com/roundup/ Join us next week for more saucer news from around the planet, brought to you by "the paper that goes home--UFO Roundup." See you then. UFO ROUNDUP: Copyright 1999 by Masinaigan Productions, all rights reserved. Readers may post news items from UFO Roundup on their websites or in newsgroups provided that they credit the newsletter and its editor by name and list the date of issue in which the item first appeared.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 1 Re: Apocalypse Pretty Soon From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net> Date: Mon, 01 Feb 99 13:37:56 PST Fwd Date: Mon, 01 Feb 1999 20:58:13 -0500 Subject: Re: Apocalypse Pretty Soon >Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 09:38:51 -0800 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >From: Alex Heard <aheard@wired.com> >Subject: Re: Apocalypse Pretty Soon >>Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 17:34:43 -0800 >>From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net> >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >>Subject: Re: Apocalypse Pretty Soon >>Perhaps I misunderstood you. If so, I apologize. >>The title " Apocalypse Pretty Soon " should have >>been the tip-off, clearly tongue in cheek. >>While the zanier elements in these realms need a >>good airing out, I hope the more serious and >>careful studies are not tarred with the same brush. >Thanks for the note. And no: I'm not dumping everybody into the >same bucket. Jerry Clark patiently taught me the difference many >years ago. Those of you unread in the literature of Alex Heard should know that Heard's oeuvre reflects his fascination with the extremes of human behavior and belief, on which he has written eloquently and often hilariously. Unless the subject is entirely spurious, he typically takes care to note somewhere that a serious question (such as still-unexplained UFO sightings) may well exist apart from the silliness generated by a particular unorthodox notion. Personally, in my experience nobody today is writing better about fringe movements than Heard. I've been a fan for years and am looking forward to reading his book. Jerry Clark
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 1 Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com> Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 14:20:30 EST Fwd Date: Mon, 01 Feb 1999 21:18:53 -0500 Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net> >Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >Date: Mon, 01 Feb 99 12:41:36 PST >>From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net> >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >>Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >>Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 23:30:54 -0500 >>>Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 23:01:28 -0600 (CST) >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >>>From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net> >>>Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >>>>As for "confirmatory items >>>previously unreported in the UFO literature" (my phrase, not >>>yours), I always wonder why we're not subjected to the real >>>nitty-gritty? That is, do many abductees report soiling their >>>underwear when they're abruptly lifted out of bed and >>>transported through a solid wall into a round spaceship, >>>whereupon they're rudely greyhandled by aliens and helpers in >>>blue uniforms? I think I would! Yet to the best of my knowledge, >>>I can't think of a single case in which a good crap in the pants >>>has come to light. Not prurient, just curious. Advanced as they >>>are, I feel sure that the aliens have come to grips with this >>>unexpected side-effect of their activities. Indeed, maybe this >>>explains the presence of the helpers in blue, after all. They're >>>there to clean up! >Dennis, >I don't know if this is a serious question, but I'll act as if >it were. Let me ask one in return: >How many people in other traumatic situations -- combat, >assault, rape, and the like -- volunteer the information that >while being terrorized and traumatized they accidentally >defecated or urinated? >Jerry Clark OK Jerry, let me be among the first.... It was somewhere around 1974 when I was doing AP work with the 47th Pct. in the Bronx. A good friend (RIP) was the sargent at the time and was with me on patrol when the radio rang out with a 1013.... officer in need of assistance which was quickly followed by "Shots Fired." We pull in front of the bar and two bodies are on their way out the door in reverse.... one of 'em goes down and the other turns and starts firing at the police officer who shot the first perp. Me? I'm sitting there in the front seat of the cruiser, which is the supervisor's car, taking this all in as if it were some kind of a movie instead of real life. Then, the police officer doing the shooting goes down. This is getting serious and I still don't understand inside my hear, what is happening. Then, the perp left standing starts shooting at _us_! Now the sargeant, my good friend and best man, pulls me down onto the front seat to get me out of the line of fire and goes out the door shooting. I hear bullets hit the car, I hear yelling and screaming. All of a sudden it's quiet. My friend comes over to see how I am. I say "I'm fine, really! Only who was screaming?" and get out of the car. "Uh, that was you, Jim!" At this time I realize why it is that many cops have a fresh set of underwear at the station house or barracks... I fainted dead away and when I wake up, they have me cleaned up at the local hospital.... the nurse looks down at me and says, "Listen, the next time mommy says to make sure you have clean underwear in case you get hit by a truck??? Listen to her!" Have I answered your question? Jim
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 2 Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net> Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 14:05:54 -0600 (CST) Fwd Date: Tue, 02 Feb 1999 09:18:52 -0500 Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net> >Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >Date: Mon, 01 Feb 99 12:41:36 PST >>>>As for "confirmatory items >>>previously unreported in the UFO literature" (my phrase, not >>>yours), I always wonder why we're not subjected to the real >>>nitty-gritty? That is, do many abductees report soiling their >>>underwear when they're abruptly lifted out of bed and >>>transported through a solid wall into a round spaceship, >>>whereupon they're rudely greyhandled by aliens and helpers in >>>blue uniforms? I think I would! Yet to the best of my knowledge, >>>I can't think of a single case in which a good crap in the pants >>>has come to light. Not prurient, just curious. Advanced as they >>>are, I feel sure that the aliens have come to grips with this >>>unexpected side-effect of their activities. Indeed, maybe this >>>explains the presence of the helpers in blue, after all. They're >>>there to clean up! >Dennis, >I don't know if this is a serious question, but I'll act as if >it were. Let me ask one in return: Jerry, It's a perfectly serious question. >How many people in other traumatic situations -- combat, >assault, rape, and the like -- volunteer the information that >while being terrorized and traumatized they accidentally >defecated or urinated? >Jerry Clark Well, ask yourself howcome it's known that loss of bladder and bowel control under traumatic circumstances is a fairly well accepted given? Obviously, a lot of people have volunteered the information over the years, or responded positively when asked directly or indirectly. Would I expect _everyone_ to volunteer the information? No. But again, even that would depend on the particular circumstances. An abductee could say, for example, that "the next thing I remember is waking up in my bed at 4am. My underclothes were completely soiled, so the first thing I did was take a hot shower," that sort of thing. If both male and female abductees are willing to go into quite detailed accounts of being sexually violated and humiliated, then bringing up a loss of the bladder or bowels doesn't seem like such a stretch. Embarrassing is embarrassing. In fact, Spielberg used it to rather dramatic effect in the opening scenes of CE3, if you remember. Was it merely artistic license, or did he pick it up in the literature, or perhaps in conversation with Hynek? I was simply curious as to why it seems to be conspicuous by its absence in abduction accounts. I'd think being abducted would scare the crap out of me! Dennis
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 2 Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 16:12:36 -0500 Fwd Date: Tue, 02 Feb 1999 09:44:10 -0500 Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 22:49:34 -0500 >From: Peter Brookesmith Mendoza <DarkSecretPB@compuserve.com> >Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >With the compliments of the Duke of Mendoza: >>Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 04:31:53 -0500 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >>From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> >>Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality Hola Mendoza, hola a todos, I originally inquired: >>Not being psychic, and never having seen anything like those >>characters before (at least not before the UFO abduction >>experience) _how_ could I have reproduced _exactly_ what was >>written by the others on those pages? Unless we all saw the same >>thing under the same circumstances. As far as I can see, it >>cannot be explained in any other plausible way. It's too freaky. >>It would just be too much of a fluke/stretch for something like >>that to be explained any other way. >>Now here's the kicker: I saw that writing on board a UFO. >>(1976) The 'others' claim to have seen theirs in the same >>place.(on board a UFO) and at different times, and different >>locations. I considered it a _confirming_ revelation and >>compelling evidence for the 'reality' of the original >>experience. >>What do _you_ make of it? It's quite a cute conundrum. <snip> Peter responded: >What I can point out, however, is that when you say "I saw that >writing on board a UFO", you mean "under hypnosis I recalled >being on a UFO and seeing that writing". And, presumably, the >others who recalled that script did so under hypnosis too. >Assuming hypnosis I can't speak for the others. Maybe I should have been clearer Peter. (Sorry, not such a much of a writer! <G>) I recalled that event _consciously!_ It happened in 1976. I made a drawing of the symbol and the glyphs the next morning after the "encounter." I still have the original. It wasn't until 17 years later (1993) when Budd and I were looking into that event using hypnosis that I finally learned how it had started and how it had ended. I recalled the "middle part" of the experience clearly since day one. I just never knew how it began or ended. We were using hypnosis to fill in some informational gaps. The event itself has always been intact in my memory. (Not to mention haunting/disturbing) That is true of every other hypnosis session I have ever done. (5 sessions _total_ over a 1 1/2 year period) Each session was focused on a very specific (and fully conscious) recollection. Again, all they served to do was to 'fill in' rather (small) gaps in my original recollection. You and others always make it sound as if the majority (if not the whole) of our accounts are derived from hypnosis. It just isn't a fair or accurate representation. I'm not defending hypnosis. I really haven't given much credence to any material that I have obtained that way. I have simply filed it away for future reference. Nor will I defend or argue for the efficacy of hynosis to recover lost or hidden memory. The 'jury' is still out on that one. But once again, I have not gotten a straight answer because you based your response in a false premise. I -did not- recover this material via hypnosis. (Although it was explored 17 years after the fact using the technique) The 'characters/glyphs' that I drew for Budd were the same in 1993 as the ones I drew that morning in1976!) In this case, the "egg" came _before_ the "chicken!" <VBG> Your other explanation is very Jungian! (IF) there is a "collective unconscious" wherein resides "archetypal symbols common to all men/women" then it would be a -good candidate- for explaining why we all reproduced the same symbols/glyphs. But then, I think we would be treading on 'metaphysical ground' that is just as "mysterious/unknown" as the one we are already exploring! <G> We'd end up using the work of A. Crowley and Aldous Huxley or even the paintings of Mondrian or Jackson Pollack for reference material! <Hee-Haw> Also, if this is "common" or "archetypal" material, why isn't it present in the "cultural/artistic" offerings available either in a gallery or archaeology museum? If it was truly 'common' we'd all be familiar with the glyphs from new or ancient drawings/art produced by men and women who go out of their way sometimes to find and reproduce (from within themselves) such material. The conscious and the subconscious are the breeding grounds of art. Yet I had never seen anything like this 'writing' before the event in 1976. And, I'm pretty sure that (we) haven't discovered -for the first time in human history- a set of "archetypal symbols" that arte 'common' to all. I was just curiousif you had an alternative explantion as to how 7 or 8 disparate individuals could produce the same 'writing.' Thanx for 'giving it a whack' Peter. It still remains a mystery to me. But I do consider it (along with many other things-most of which are physical in nature, and clearly/consciously recalled) a confirmation of the 'reality' of the original experiences. I suppose there is truth to the statement that one has to experience certain things for themselves before it can enter the realm of the 'real' or the 'possible' for them. Who knows, one night while chasing the foals you may encounter something which will defy explanation for you too. (And may you have the waders on when you do! I know that there are times when I wish I had a pair on over here! <G>) Warm regards, John Velez ________________________________________________ jvif@spacelab.net INTRUDERS FOUNDATION/ABDUCTION INFORMATION CENTER http://www.if-aic.com "Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind." ________________________________________________
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 2 HOT GOSSIP UK - FEB 1999 From: Georgina Bruni <georgina@easynet.co.uk> Date: Mon, 01 Feb 1999 21:23:01 +0000 Fwd Date: Tue, 02 Feb 1999 09:51:57 -0500 Subject: HOT GOSSIP UK - FEB 1999 HOT GOSSIP UK - FEBRUARY 1999 THE "UNEXPLAINED" SECTION By Georgina Bruni THE SANTILLI SAGA In late 1996 I interviewed RAY SANTILLI to ask him about the infamous Alien Autopsy footage, explaining that I had received information from a source who claimed he knew the real story of how he [Santilli], had come to obtain the material. Later, in 1997 I published my findings in my regular column which I then wrote for British SIGHTINGS magazine. It was further published in FROM BEYOND, Canada and the USA edition . A London fashion photographer who wished to remain anonymous, I called him ANGEL, told me that four years previously he had worked on a CD cover for one of Santilli=92s music companies. During his working relationship with the British businessman he claims Santilli had told him the truth about the =93Alien Autopsy=94 footage, and how he came to acquire it. According to the source, whose name (with permission) was passed on to three other researchers for verification - the cameraman story was a total fabrication. =93Ray told me himself that he had been approached by someone at an American Film and Video trade fair, who offered to sell him =93under the table=94 unusual footage of an alien autopsy. I believe Ray was genuinely convinced the footage was of a real alien autopsy, but later when he discovered it was a fake, he decided to run with it anyway. He was at first undecided on what to do. He contacted the man who sold him the footage who confirmed it was a fake. Ray had already paid a deposit and spent time on looking for funding, he was too far in. He told me that if he could pull this one off it would be the biggest hoax in history.=94 The source recounted. Angel is convinced that Santilli talked to dozens of people at the time and he believes there are others out there with this same information. Santilli admitted to knowing the photographer and that he may well have mentioned the AA footage to him, as at the time it was no secret because he was trying to raise capital to purchase it. I asked Santilli if there was any truth in Angel=92s story, he said. =93His story is absolute nonsense. I did not buy the footage from a trade fair, he=92s making the story up, or he=92s mixed up the facts with fiction. I=92m surprised he would come out with a story like that. I=92ve had no conversation with him for almost four years. And as for the AA footage, if it were faked, not only would it cost a great deal of money to make, but it would require at least fifteen to twenty people, film crew etc. to produce it, and how on earth would you keep all those people quiet - there=92s bound to have been a security leak by now.=94 Santilli told me he had a collection of =91alien autopsy=92 films created by special effects experts. Apparently these films were produced at incredible cost in an attempt to prove that it is possible to fake such a film. The collection includes footage produced by Fox, RTL, Fuji, a Scandinavian company, and even an X-Files piece. The businessman explained: =93I=92ll probably get shot for this, but I=92m seriously considering putting them all together to make a one hour video special. And believe me, they are nothing like the original, they=92re laughable, even though hundreds of thousands of dollars have been spent on producing them.=94 At the time of my interview with him, Santilli did mention that he had problems with the =93Tent=94 footage, but regrettably I did follow up on this part of the conversation. Santilli is not , and has never been, interested in this subject - he is a businessman. As far as I am aware his only interest was to market the footage in the hope of making it a profitable venture. I may be amongst the very few, but I do not dismiss the possibility that a fraction of the Santilli footage may be genuine. Rather than class it as =93Autopsy=94 footage, I prefer to think it could have been part of a reel of =93Dissection=94 footage. A well known media friend recalls seeing a similar piece of footage in the Disney archives when he visited the corporation many years ago. At the time Disney were launching their TOMORROWLAND site and decided to promote it by inviting the world=92s media along for a weekend stay. Anyway, my media friend claims he was shown a similar piece of footage to that of the Santilli AA footage, and he was somewhat amazed to have been told that it was GENUINE. The person who recounted this to him was one of Disney=92s most famous animators, and although the name of the animator was given to me, I was asked not to reveal it publicly. Was he sure it wasn=92t just a piece of Disney film? I asked. No, he had thought so too, but was told that Disney had a large collection of genuine UFO/Alien footage. Considering that my friend is a credible person and has no interest in this subject whatsoever, I cannot imagine he would create a false story. So, could it be that the Santilli footage is of the same stock as the one apparently owned by Disney? Who knows? Some questions which researchers might want to ask is: =93How come Disney are in possession of such film?=94 and =93Who were their original cameramen?=94 The answers to many questions might well be hidden in their archives. I also understand that one of the world=92s top rocket scientist=92s was involved in their Tomorrowland project..... Von Braun, no less. I cannot imagine Santilli would go to so much trouble to make a hoax unless there was something to trigger his inspiration in the first place. If he was genuinely offered a small piece of footage, then there is very little he could do with it. Consider the latest problems involving false footage being used in TV documentaries. Even the prestigious BBC were involved. One film company knowingly used false material in a documentary about the Titanic. The so called footage passed off as the famous ship, was in fact of its sister ship. The only way we will ever get close to the truth about the AA footage is if Santilli reveals the identity of the person who sold it to him. Unfortunately, we may never be privileged with this information. Even supposing a fraction of the AA footage is genuine, I do not believe it was in any way connected with the Roswell crash. There were several incidents reported during the late 40s and early 50s, and rumour has it that there was more than one crash site in New Mexico. We recall how many people jumped on the band wagon of the 50th Anniversary of the Roswell incident. Maybe the original scraps of AA footage belong altogether to another incident. Do not dismiss the whole because there is one piece of bad apple amongst the crop. Throw away the contaminated piece and there may still be the genuine article. _______________________________________________ MONEY PAID FOR UFO FOOTAGE Thanks to Philip Mantle for bringing this to my attention: LWT Television are appealing to the public to turn in any UFO related footage which may be included in a ITV documentary later this year. The =9360 Minutes=94 programme is offering two hundred pounds sterling for good video footage. Anything is considered, but they are especially interested in UK sightings and the Mexican wave. The documentary will also feature well known ufologists from Britain and overseas. For more details contact: Claire O=92Donohoe on [0171 578 4410] _________________________________________________ ANOTHER FOX MULDER HITS THE HEADLINES American millionaire and Internet guru, Joe Firmage recently hit the headlines when he quit his day job to pursue UFO study. It seems the press have dubbed Firmage =93The Fox Mulder of Silicon Valley=94, which I found interesting. You may recall that it was the British press who christened MOD official Nick Pope =93The Real Fox Mulder=94, a title that he, along with Firmage, is not too keen to carry. However, if Firmage gets as much publicity as Pope, he shouldn=92y knock the title, but milk it for all its worth. Apparently Firmage is seeking a publisher to take on his much publicised literary work =93THE TRUTH=94, which I would dearly like to read but could not gain access to his internet site. Is Hot Gossip banned, I wonder? My tip to Firmage - who incidentally did not respond to my request for an interview - Why not buy a publishing company and publish the book yourself! Two other authors recently took on this challenge, notably William Birnes and Dan Sherman. ___________________________________________________ Permission to distribute this text providing the authors and publication are credited. Photographs may be copyright and cannot be used without consent. =A9 Hot Gossip UK 1999 www.hotgossip.co.uk The above text is taken from "The Unexplained" section =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Georgina Bruni E-mail: georgina@easynet.co.uk E-mail: 104707.336@compuserve.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * HOT GOSSIP UK www.hotgossip.co.uk Celebrating three years on the internet Britain's first on-line Gossip Magazine * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Check out my three columns: SPOTLIGHT at HOT GOSSIP UK THE "UNEXPLAINED" at HOT GOSSIP UK BRUNI's COLUMN at UFO CITY: www.hotgossip.co.uk * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 2 Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality From: Peter Brookesmith Mendoza <DarkSecretPB@compuserve.com> Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 16:49:26 -0500 Fwd Date: Tue, 02 Feb 1999 10:26:48 -0500 Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality With the Duke's compliments: >From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 00:15:42 -0500 Greg wondered, about the "tiny details" of Jacobs's subjects' medical procedures and equipment, as reported: > ...So when you say you don't know what >these details are, the first question has to be, >"Why didn't you ask?" Because, in the time available from my learning of them (not early in the writing schedule), there wasn't time to deal with them properly--as I already said. Especially given the detail I would have been after (also listed previously). This is not a short job I am proposing, even supposing Jacobs's co-operation would be forthcoming to such as I. Merely mentioning said details would merely have added to the row of unsubstantiated claims with which abductology is replete, and my comment would have amounted to a shrug. Why waste the space? I left out plenty of claims that I *could* have dismantled, without the extra work (such as about 75 per cent of Hopkins's "Witnessed"), as it was. I find the question above mystifying, but maybe we are talking at cross purposes. I do know enough of the details to know where to start investigating them, and I think that's more than most, including many pro-abduction commentators. When I said "most people even inside abductology don't know what these 'details' are except in the most general terms" I was suggesting no more than that. Why hasn't anyone else asked? Maybe, like me, they've had other things to do. I can even imagine some True Believers not wanting to ask. I can imagine pop-eyed Disbelievers waving their hands and rolling their eyes. Why are you asking me? I had a book to write and I wrote it, and there are a score or two of other major items there was neither time nor space to address that would, nonetheless, have contributed to the discussion. Tough tittie. Such is life. best, but bemused, wishes Priscianus D. Monophone White Rabbit
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 2 Unexplained Animal Death In Utah '98 From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> Date: Tue, 02 Feb 1999 10:21:42 -0500 Fwd Date: Tue, 02 Feb 1999 10:21:42 -0500 Subject: Unexplained Animal Death In Utah '98 Unexplained Animal Death In Utah October 16, 1998 The National Institute for Discovery Science (NIDS) has updated its website. Each title below, is a clickable link. ebk ----- Source: http://www.accessnv.com/nids/page4.shtml Animal Pathology Research o Preliminary Investigation of the Unexplained Death of a Cow in N.E. Utah on Oct. 16, 1998 o Necropsy Protocol In Animal Mutilation Cases, Nov., 1998 o Animal Mutilations: What We Know o Animal Mutilations: What We Don't Know o Hazard Notification o Investigation on the Death of a Cow Near Red River, New Mexico o Preliminary Investigation on the Unexplained Death of a Bull in Arroyo Seco, New Mexico o Summary Report: Results of a Survey Among Ranchers Concerning Unexplained Animal Deaths o Results of a Survey Among Bovine Practitioners Concerning Animal Mutilation o Sample Collection Protocol: For Unexplained Animal Deaths o General Guidelines in Investigating Unexplained Animal Deaths
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 2 Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality From: Peter Brookesmith Mendoza <DarkSecretPB@compuserve.com> Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 16:49:33 -0500 Fwd Date: Tue, 02 Feb 1999 10:30:24 -0500 Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality Compliments of the Duke of Medoza: >From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 20:23:52 -0500 Greg quoted Rebecca mentioning: >>Betty Hill who says something about abductees getting together >>at group meeting and comparing notes? and continued: >Peter posted something here to that effect, using (I think) the >text of an article he published elsewhere. I think it might have >been an outtake from his book. No, it was a trailer from the Fortean Times website for the printed issue containing the interview. Betty isn't the first to suggest this, of course. >At the time, I thought -- and >should have posted here -- that Betty Hill is hardly an expert >on the current abduction phenomenon, despite her historical >importance. Much of what she said, I thought, was more or less >off the top of her head. Much of what she said is echoed in her book, so she has thought about it. Actually, after a while talking with Betty, it's not hard to tell when she's speaking rehearsed, considered thoughts and when she's being spontaneous. I tried to reflect both sides. >I'm not sure why Peter thought it was >worth publishing, unless he was just having fun saying, "See, >even a famous abudctee thinks abduction research has problems." Bear in mind FT has a "general", not a specialist readership. Not much had been heard of from Betty in the UK for a long while, FT had never interviewed her, her book had gone unremarked almost everywhere, and the thoughts of someone of "historical importance" who's been there and done that on current abductology are surely of interest even to the most jaded palate. And she made a substantive point or two about hypnosis, and about her notion of what "aliens" - "UFO people" to her - may be about. Her expertise in terms of details of current research is neither here nor there. As the grandmother of the abduction phenomenon, her comments on the antics of the modern Gray are worth "taking seriously", and set off plenty of interesting hares--too obvious even to mention here--that current abductology hasn't addressed. Yes, to some extent I was having fun. I enormously enjoyed Betty's company and we had a lot of laughs. I hope some of her huge & irrepressible zest came across on the printed page. As for Little Richard--well, I'm not going to get into the history of rock'n'roll, but if you had the opportunity to interview him you'd take it up, wouldn't you? And I'm sure you'd expect your readers to have the urbanity to know that what he might say wasn't part of some private musical agenda of your own. My turn to say "C'mon". :-) >Important area for current investigation (I'm working on this): >Dave Jacobs' claim that abductees always put certain seemingly >random -- and obscure -- details in the same order. Dave has all >his hypnotic sessions transcribed, and so his claim, if it's >correct, ought to be possible for him to document. Dangerous to comment on the unseen--but here's another example of a vague claim that few wot of, and that, until we see the whole transcript and know a good deal more besides, merely invites a shrug. However, if these details come out "in the same order", they are not "random". Maybe they come out in the same order because they make narrative sense, but then you may think that idea is "truly loopy", ho hum. Maybe there is some other reason. In any case, this aspect of abductions deserves looking at, and I hope whoever does it spends a few hours discussing it with Ed Bullard. I foresee a few juicy debates. Anyway, who are you to talk, we all know you are a KGB agent and in Allen Hynek's pocket without knowing it. (As he did not, either.) best wishes Pedersoli D. Messenger Shooting Back
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 2 Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality From: Peter Brookesmith Mendoza <DarkSecretPB@compuserve.com> Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 16:49:29 -0500 Fwd Date: Tue, 02 Feb 1999 10:32:59 -0500 Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality With the compliments of the Duke of Mendoza: >Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 09:21:04 -0800 (PST) >From: Rebecca <xiannekei@yahoo.com> >Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> Commenting on what should be looked at in evaluating apparently corroborative "tiny unpublished details" (hereafter TUDs, I think), Rebecca wrote: >I think that's a pretty good plan! Thanks. Now who's going to do it? And is Dr Dave in the same camp as Budd Hopkins, who won't release some of his info because "the skeptics will jump all over it", and wouldn't let the [MUFON?] Transcription Project see his files either? Spiffing weather this morning! Anyone for science? >Duke, it was great hearing from you. Please don't >stay away, as I miss your wit and wisdom. I have missed it too. Especially when I keep seeing mouldy corpses with the worms dropping out, like Santilli's bullshit and that MJ-12 claptrap, stumbling back from the dead like something out of Algernon Blackwood recreated for a drive-in. And in particular I had a wit-loss episode the other day when Dark Secret stomped my instep twice with her well-shod foot, which gives me the bandaged leisure to indulge here. This particular abduction thread is being conducted with such uncharacteristic calm and consideration it did seem worth coming out of the cupboard, for there was mayhap a chance someone might actually listen. We shall see. By and large, though, I still think I should have stuck to rock'n'roll when I had the chance. best wishes Parquetry D. Mahogany Faraway Tree
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 2 Topic Drift From: Sean Jones <tedric@tedric.demon.co.uk> Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 21:09:41 +0000 Fwd Date: Tue, 02 Feb 1999 10:44:23 -0500 Subject: Topic Drift topic drift /n./ Term used on GEnie, use.net and other electronic fora to describe the tendency of a thread to drift away from the original subject of discussion (and thus, from the Subject: header of the originating message), or the results of that tendency. Often used in gentle reminders that the discussion has strayed off any useful track,i.e. "I think we started with a question about K Randle's last book, but we've ended up discussing the sexual habits of the common marmoset. Now _that's_ topic drift!" -- [Nice one, Sean.--ebk <VBG>] In an infinite universe infinitely anything is possible. Sean Jones Homepage--http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Zone/1745/index.htm UFO page--http://www.tedric.demon.co.uk/
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 2 Serious UFO Study Shown on UK TV From: Ian Darlington - C.U.F.O.R.G. <cuforg@interweb-design.co.uk> Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 21:58:31 -0000 Fwd Date: Tue, 02 Feb 1999 10:47:28 -0500 Subject: Serious UFO Study Shown on UK TV 'Riddle of The Skies' Produced by Union Skyline for Channel 4 Tonight we have just been given the privilege of watching the first sober, intelligent study of the subject seen for some time on British television. Part of a three programme series, 'Riddle of the Skies' presents the evidence in a worthy and compelling manner. The programme began as they usually do with a brief overview of the Roswell and Kenneth Arnold cases, then swiftly moved on to Steven Greer of C.S.E.T.I. who claimed to have 3,500 pilot reports on file, as well as 4000 trace events. The programme then went into an in-depth study of the Belgium Triangle incident of 1989, interviewing such quality witnesses as a Belgium army Colonel and the Professor who analysed the images caught on film. Next up was Ken Mattingly and his Apollo 16 'flashes'. This segment also included footage from the moon missions showing objects flying over the surface and flashes from the craters. Then we heard from Dr. Jack Kasher regarding the remarkable STS-48 footage, followed by James Oberg's disputes with same. Next came Story Musgrave along with soundtrack of mission STS-73 "We have an unidentified flying object =85 " heard clearly over the radio link to Mission Control. Then STS-82, the famous Hubble servicing mission where Steve Smith and his colleague apparently discuss numerous flashes, objects and lights. Smith then explained, unconvincingly, that the discussion centred around photography taking place by the crew inside the shuttle. Some of the Mir footage taken by Manarov also made an appearance as well as the impressive footage from STS-80 where the lights of Denver can be seen along with some phenomenal thunderstorms, but which also shows at least one strange object apparently appearing from nowhere and moving through the atmosphere. Story Musgrave made another appearance stating that he didn't know what the footage showed but that it "=85 has the characteristics of thousands of things I have seen, apart from the fact it appears from nowhere." He went on the say that he believes there is nothing to suggest the existence of UFOs in our atmosphere, apart from the 8 - 10 foot 'eel' that he has personally seen twice and which appeared to have internal movement! The first programme ended with 85 year old Gordon Cooper who feels the evidence for the existence of extra-terrestrials is here on earth and not in space. Next week's programme looks at evidence from pilots, air traffic controllers and members of the military. I'll post my review at the same time next Monday. Finally, I have been looking for the STS-80 footage on the Internet for a while but with no luck. Now I have it on video I'll be posting it on our Web site as soon as I get my new TV/video card. Regards, Ian Darlington. Editor/Webmaster 'Skywatchers'. Cornwall UFO Research Group http://www.interweb-design.co.uk/cuforg mailto:cuforg@interweb-design.co.uk ICQ 12387110
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 2 Skywatchers Newsletter --Issue 2, Part 1 From: Ian Darlington - CUFORG <cuforg@interweb-design.co.uk> Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 21:59:03 -0000 Fwd Date: Tue, 02 Feb 1999 11:12:13 -0500 Subject: Skywatchers Newsletter --Issue 2, Part 1 Skywatchers Email Edition -- Issue 2 -- Sept.'98 - Jan. '99 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 'SKYWATCHERS' is a quarterly publication from the Cornwall UFO Research Group (C.U.F.O.R.G.), which was founded in 1995. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Welcome to 'Skywatchers'! Due to work commitments there has been a long break in the email editions of this newsletter, for which I apologise. Although my work still keeps me up nights, I have tried to get my priorities right - I've remembered that this subject is more important to me than almost everything else in my life. Thank you Joe. Ian Darlington, Editor. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ This issue comes in 3 parts. If any part is missing, please contact us: mailto:cuforg@interweb-design.co.uk +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Skywatchers is a subscription newsletter. First-time recipients may receive one free issue before subscribing. For more information on how to subscribe, please see the notice at the end of this issue. Questions and comments may be addressed to the Editor at the above address. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ C.U.F.O.R.G. would like to point out that the views expressed herein are those of the authors and do not reflect any Group policy on the subject. The only official policy line that C.U.F.O.R.G. takes is that of keeping an open mind at all times with regard every opinion expressed either within 'Skywatchers', during Group meetings or on the Group's Web site. We therefore encourage readers and members to adopt the same unprejudiced approach to these issues. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ GROUP DETAILS Head Office: 24 Carrine Road, Truro, Cornwall, TR1 3XB. UK. Telephone: +44 (0) 1872-276381 Email: cuforg@interweb-design.co.uk Founder/Chairman: Dave Gillham Treasurer: Elaine Gillham Editor/Design: Ian Darlington +44 (0) 1637-852596 Illustrations/Co-editor: Elaine Darlington Web Site: http://www.interweb-design.co.uk/cuforg/ ICQ: 12387110 +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Please note that C.U.F.O.R.G. has no connection whatsoever with the Cornwall UFO and Psychic Research Group run by Daniel Harriatt. All C.U.F.O.R.G. investigators carry official I.D. Cards. If you wish to check a caller's ID then contact Head Office. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ All material used herein is Copyright =A9 1998 - 1999 C.U.F.O.R.G. unless otherwise stated. C.U.F.O.R.G. reserves the right to edit submissions where necessary. No unauthorised reproduction, posting on the Internet, etc without permission. Please ask - requests will usually be granted providing full credit is given. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ CONTENTS FOR ISSUE 2 PART ONE * Report On The Recent Group Meetings PART TWO * Sightings Reported to C.U.F.O.R.G. PART THREE * My Paranormal, UFO And ET Experiences: Part 3. Elaine Darlington * The Sky At Night. Sue Herbert * Classic Sighting From 1977. By Dionne Jones +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Report on The CUFORG Monthly Meetings By Dionne Jones. JULY: The Lizard Zodiac Mystic and writer, Sheila Jeffries, was CUFORG's star speaker for July. Sheila grew up in Glastonbury, a place famous for its Arthurian links and its extraordinary 'landscape zodiac'. It was the sculptress, Kathleen Moltwood who discovered the mysterious images in old field patterns and routes, which seemed to represent the figures of the zodiac. Sheila's first revelation of the evening was that she was born right in the Lion's bum! She had her first vision and UFO sightings there during her childhood, but soon 'learnt' not to see the strange discs and purple lights that often sped across the Somerset levels, invisible to other people. She went to art college, became a school teacher and had a relatively ordinary life until a friend who teaches her meditation introduced her to the technique. It opened up everything she had 'forgotten' she recalled seeing 'spirit people' when a child, and an angel in a church, but had been discouraged from developing her natural clairvoyant ability. One day, Sheila was meditating on Wearyall Hill, when she received a message telling her to go to Cornwall and look for 'Hallow Glen', where she would find a holy well by a hawthorn tree and Piskies who would help her reactivate the well. She came to Cornwall, searched high and low, but couldn't find the place and ended up staying on a campsite at Four Lanes. As she walked her dog in a mist shrouded field there, she had a vision of a huge angel a 20ft tall male figure with a blazing sword. She thought he must be the archangel Michael. He struck his sword in the ground and taking the hint, Sheila bought a nearby house which was for sale. As a result she acquired the field where the angel had appeared. Sensing there was something special about the spot, Sheila called in local dowser Don Wilkins to try his art. Don detected water, about 250ft below the spot where the angel had struck his sword and Sheila built a well there. She also found a stone in the field later on which she discovered was on the famous Michael ley. Sheila lived at Four Lanes for 7 or 8 years, during which time she became a Christian and lost interest in mysticism. Then she met Ted Jeffries and went to live at Porthallow Vineyard in St. Keverne on the Lizard peninsula. As soon as she stepped in the old farmyard she knew she was on sacred ground (she has an ability to feel leys - even when in a car). Porthallow had a glen with nine streams and an unusual octagonal well and she feels this is the 'Hallow Glen' she was sent to find. One day Sheila meditated in the yard and saw an old lady standing with her arms crossed outside a ruined cottage. She held a wren wrapped in a green shawl. As the lady crossed the yard and stood in front of her, Sheila glanced up and saw a dove shaped winged figure corning down from the sky. The old lady said her name was Matilda, she was a healer herbalist, and she directed Sheila to a spot where masses of tour leaf clovers were growing (which she brought to the CUFORG meeting in a frame). Sheila has always found four leaf clovers on leys and felt there must be something very special about her new abode. On other occasions she also saw fairies, a Cistercian monk and a line of white-robed druids who appeared as 20 pillars of light in the yard. During another meditation the voice returned and told her "there is a lion in the landscape if you look. In fact there are three lions!". Sheila went to the library to look at old maps of the area and after much studying found a huge image of a lion's hind leg resting upon St Keverne church. It took six months to find the complete 3 mile long figure. The story of its discovery is related in Sheila's first book on the zodiac 'Cornwall's Landscape Lion'. By some strange coincidence (or perhaps quirk of the Cosmic Joker), when the figure was complete Sheila found that Porthallow, where she now lives, is in the lion's backside! Sheila couldn't find the other two lions mentioned by the voice, but writer Paul Broadhurst believes he has found a lioness and a cub super-imposed on each other at Lostwithiel, near Bodmin. Over the next few years Sheila did find several other figures in the landscape of the Lizard, situated within an ellipse rather than a circle like the one at Glastonbury. She found a dove inside the lion, centred upon Porthallow itself (remember the vision of a dove over the yard where she saw Matilda?). Cancer and Gemini are in the Coverack area, there is a phallic Taurus figure at Kennack Sands, a paschal lamb for Aries at Erisey Harton, Pisces is at Goonhilly, Aquarius at Trelowarren and Libra & Virgo at Manaccan. She also found a figure resembling the constellation Cygnus at Traboe and a dolphin at Mullion. Scorpio, Sagittarius and Capricorn are still missing. Sheila thinks that the dove, swan and dolphin replace them because it is not a terrestrial zodiac but one based upon the orbit of another planet around the star Deneb. The Longstone at Trevallack (representing the top of Orion's bow) should be an interesting place to be next August, since it stands on the line of the approaching solar eclipse (it may even have been raised to predict the event). So if Sheila is right and there really is a giant zodiac and star map embedded in the landscape of the Lizard, who created it and why? The answer came when she went to meditate at a stone marking the position of the star Deneb, within the Cygnus (swan) figure. After being chastised for trying to tune in whilst inside the car ('we cannot talk to you with all that metal around'), she channeled information from nine extra-terrestrial beings about the landscape zodiac. They appeared to her as 'beings of light' and seemed to be behind some kind of silver wall. She felt they were benign. They said they were from the planet Elos and the zodiac was a map of their origin. They moved the standing stones by 'carving with sound in the spirit world'. The star map was constructed some 9000 years ago and the zodiac completed when they came as 'Phoenicians'. They said "we will come again in numbers large enough for you to notice. The booms that you hear are caused by our craft which travel too fast for you to normally see, so you only see one if it is stationary or it is approaching on a direct line towards you". The full transcript of the channelling is in Sheila's follow up book - 'Cornwall's Landscape Zodiac'. Sheila has seen UFOs at Four Lanes and has sensed their presence at Goonhilly. She feels 'they are coming again'. She finished with the intriguing news that several dowsers from Fountain International found three new ley lines coming from the wing of the dove and shining onto the Gemini figure - something she feels symbolises the birth of the Christ child. * * * August Meeting: "Beyond Boundaries" - Joyce L. Murphy & Ruben Uriarte Report by Dionne Jones The Beyond Boundaries team visited Cornwall last August and kindly shared their findings at our monthly meeting. Beyond Boundaries is a company specialising in leading small groups of people interested in the UFO phenomena to areas of the world where sightings and encounters are frequently occurring. On these expeditions people from all walks of life get to interact at a grassroots level with local researchers and residents who are experiencing the phenomena on a personal basis. Guest speakers were Joyce Murphy and Ruben Uriarte. Joyce's background is in maths and physics. She is also a roving correspondent for 'Sightings' on the radio (which broadcasts live across America and on the Internet). Ruben is assistant director of research for MUFON in California. The expedition team included a representative of the Rockefeller organisation, an ex-USAF officer from the Pentagon, a nudist, a photographer, an electrical engineer, a retired pilot, a bar owner, a photo-journalist, an abductee and several contactees. The talk and slide show focused around the team's visit to Puerto Rico, where they spoke to first hand witnesses of the infamous chupacabras. The chupacabras, or 'goat-sucker', is a strange humanoid entity (or entities) blamed for mysterious livestock attacks on the Caribbean island since 1995. It has variously been described and depicted as a fanged kangaroo-like being with bulging red eyes, a cloven-hoofed predator, a real-life gargoyle, a 2- legged 4ft high dark grey creature with large fangs, pointed ears and claw-like hands or a Grey-like being with spines or wing-like appendages down its back. A Military Cover-up? The chupacabras is thought to be hiding in the mountain rain forest area of El Yunque, or in one of Puerto Rico's numerous cave systems. Conspiracy theorists suspect they come from a joint US-government and alien Grey base under the mountain. Yet Indians have long recognised this to be a place of mystery. It sits on one corner of the Bermuda triangle and is thought by some, to be a dimensional portal (a doorway to, or from, other dimensions). Joyce has noticed how Navy Seals (US special branch forces), show up at all the major dimensional portholes of the world. She suspects that a blimp officially used to monitor narcotics traffic on the island is actually guarding the portal, The expedition went to Puerto Rico in June 1997, 5 weeks after an alleged UFO crash in the centre of the island. They visited the 'crash site" but the semi-arid climate meant that no tracks were left in the dust, so there was no tangible evidence to support the story. Strangely, a video they made of the area exhibited a red-shift effect (greens came out red). Near the crash site Joyce was shown 2 stone artefacts taken from a cave; one had a skull carved on one side and an alien looking being on the other, whilst the other showed an Adamski style UFO and a pyramid. In the cave the stones came from they were told there is a buzzing sound "like bees" and strange lights are seen. A family who washed their clothes in the river nearby remember playing with little white people there as children. Sightings of the Chupacabras As the team made enquiries several incredible stories started to emerge from local people. One man who worked as an air conditioning mechanic at the island's Roosevelt Air Force Base (the largest such base in the world), claimed to have found an opening to a secret underground base. He said that submarines came in and out of it from the ocean. The area in question was treated with Agent Orange. He also saw a photograph of a Grey type alien which had been killed by a forest ranger. The team interviewed 2 policemen who claimed to have shot at the chupacabras. They commented that there seemed to be a forcefield around it which made the bullets bounce off. One woman looked outside and saw some small grey beings touching her Swiss cheese plant. She screamed and they disappeared. Another woman saw a 2-legged chupacabras walking down the street. It jumped 50ft before touching the ground. Unlike most islanders, who are uneasy about the creature, she had an intense urge to get close to it and hold it. Other witnesses have reacted more predictably. One man discovered several bipedal grey 'animals' with a bad smell in his house and beat them with his cane. The more he beat them the more they smelled! One of his daughters saw a light which was so bright her body became transparent and she could see her own bones. His other daughter had sexual relations with one of these beings. As many as 40 different sized entities have been seen together. They have been described as 'prehistoric' looking, and seem to be capable of either flying or making incredible leaps with the aid of strange bat-wing like appendages. Stories were rife that the US government had caught some of the entities. One computer analysis 'and several others saw two entities pinned up before the government had them hauled away. Apparently several drunk navy seals bragged in a local bar about the beings they held captive on a navy ship. A slide photo of an alleged Grey was offered for consideration, but the silhouetted figures walking through an archway were too indistinct for any clear identification to be made. They could just as easily have been a human adult and child. The photo was apparently taken at night, yet it looks at first glance to have been taken during daylight. The light, we were told, came from the moon. The photo was taken by a peasant woman when a UFO hovered over trees nearby, and she was pleased to have captured her 'friends' on film. UFOs There is at least one story of planes chasing UFOs over Puerto Rico, the objects disappearing when their pursuers got too close. It's rumoured that the Navy has 8 fighters missing after similar encounters, with 16 pilots unaccounted for. UFOs have also been seen dropping strange creatures onto the island. They seem to be associated with large bodies of water - and are often seen coming in and out of a small lake or the ocean. Fishermen frequently see bright lights in the sea. Curiously there are also Big-Foot sightings in Puerto Rico, some of which are associated with UFO activity. Livestock Attacks One angry lady who is dependent upon her livestock for food, reflected the annoyance of other islanders whose animals have fallen victim to a mystery predator which drains them dry of blood, leaving two punctures on the neck as its trademark. The attacks began in 1995 and soon spread to Mexico, Florida and even Texas. A pediatrician who studied several animal corpses in Mexico found it unusual that no rigor mortis had set in. She was also telepathically told by a dying lamb that 'consciousness survives the physical'. The lady was a pure scientist and found the whole thing incredible. It changed her life. There have been no definite attacks on humans yet, although there are a few unconfirmed rumours. A woman in Mexico claims to have been attacked by a bat-like creature which leapt 7ft away when she fought it off. Healings and Hybrids Overall, human interactions with the entities seem to have been mostly positive, with a number of miraculous healings attributed to them. Some abductees even claim the beings have the power to regenerate human organs. One man was on his death-bed when two 'doctors' came in to his home one night, covered his eyes, worked on his abdominal area and the next day he woke up, cured. The beings seem to be interested in reproduction or cross-breeding and make repeat visits to particular families. For example, the daughter of the man above was pregnant with twins, but only one of them was born. She was 'told' to move to a particular house because the aliens could materialise through the floor. The surviving twin regularly gets taken into a craft or a tunnel under their home to see her missing twin brother, who has been raised by the aliens and is said to be mentally and emotionally advanced for his age. When researcher, Mark Davenport, checked the house with a magnetometer, he found an electromagnetic field emitting from an octagonal area under the floor right where the aliens materialise. Another woman claims to be a human-alien hybrid. In the slide she has a prominent forehead and large Spanish eyes which are likened to the classic facial features of a typical Grey. Her mother won't talk about the father, but claims to have been taken to a crystal palace to be checked over whilst pregnant. We were told there is something unusual about the girl's DNA - "it's similar to an hermaphrodite". Other Expeditions The Beyond Boundaries team has been to other suspected 'portal areas' around the world. In Brazil they found a forest that had been taken over by the US military, and listened to stories of the 'chupa chupa' or 'big light' frequently seen in the area. They also found shamen who commune with extra-terrestrials and discovered a correlation between UFOs and crystal rich areas. The UFOs also seem to be linked with ancient sites there, as they have here. In Mexico they noted a connection between UFOs and volcanoes. The sight of red and white lights jumping into the cone of Mt. Popocapatetl led locals to believe that the beings were trying to prevent it from erupting. In one hot spot of activity some 200 people claimed to be contactees who are in telepathic or face to face communication with ET's. We were also shown a slide of a lady holding 'angel hair' that was later identified by a laboratory to be from high altitude spider webs. Prophecies In Glasgow the team met a Rosicrucian who claimed to have been taken on board a craft by ETs. He met Sananda (a Christ-like figure) and was given advance warning of cataclysmic events due to happen around the year 2000. E.T. prophecies often warn of impending cataclysms or times of change, after which some people will 'leave' to live at a higher rate of vibration whilst some will stay in the physical to look after the world. One common belief is that some people will be taken from this world to a better place by the ET's. This topic raised quite a bit of interest during the discussion at the end of the talk - several people felt that the messages were not so negative here, and suggested we could avert disaster by raising our own vibrational level through positive thought. Most of the evidence presented was anecdotal, and therefore relies upon our trust that events happened as described, but the sheer number of reports in one small area does suggest that something very unusual is going on in Puerto Rico. Here in the south-west, very few people claim to have encountered entities and those who have come forward tend to be quite selective about who they tell. It leaves you wondering whether there is more of this kind of activity in places like Puerto Rico, or simply a greater openness about the subject. We at CUFORG are keen to hear from anyone who has seen or interacted with other beings, including fairies, and as always, we will respect your privacy. We realise it's a difficult subject for people to be open about, and will offer a sympathetic, non-judgemental ear. We can be contacted at the group's HQ or if you prefer, individual committee members can be approached at the monthly meetings. After the talk Dave Gillham and several committee members (Ian & Elaine Darlington; Andy Tugby and Lorraine Welch) joined the Beyond Boundaries team for an all-night radio session, broadcast on Jeff Rense's 'Sightings' programme. We would like to thank Joyce, Ruben and the other members of the team for sharing their information with us. The Beyond Boundaries web site is at: http://www.beyondboundaries.org The organisation's newsletter can be obtained from: Beyond Boundaries, PO Box 250, Rainbow, Texas, Tx 76677. The =91Sightings=92 programme can be found at: http://www.sightings.com in the August 1998 Archived show. * * * December Meeting: Allan Jones Report by Geoff Herbert The visiting speaker for December was Allan Jones, a teacher specialising in drama and Social Science. From his teens he was into Astrology, UFOs etc. He studied geology at university and acquired a sceptical-scientific-materialist type attitude. Then he went to Canada with the intention of getting in to the profitable oil business. So his early twenties found him in Calgary with a =A340.00 bus ticket in his pocket and no money. The ticket was for a one way journey to Jasper, a town in Banff National Park. No work was forthcoming so under a cloud of depression he wandered into the backwoods to find himself and found instead a generous dose of 'flu, at least that's what he thought it was. Lying alone, feeling like death, with no prospects, personal or professional, his sickness and depression achieved almost tangible proportions. Finally, when death seemed the most appealing prospect, an ancient Indian happened upon his prone form and took it upon himself to effect a cure. Being barely conscious at the time Alan was hardly in a position to argue, and so it was he awoke the following day to the sound of drums and loud chanting. Considerable activity was taking place around his little tent in the wilderness. It seemed as if the entire Indian population of the America's had singled him out for some dark and primitive rite. Consumed with fear and trepidation he peeped out to see a solitary Indian in full ceremonial gear leaping about, dancing and waving his arms around amid a pungent cloud of smouldering herbs. An ancient wind-up gramophone that stood close by produced the ethnic sound effects. Although a little disappointed by this anti-climax Allan was encouraged to note that his health was much improved. "Come," said the ancient Indian. Allan followed him to the shores of a nearby lake. "Swim," said the ancient Indian pointing resolutely to the cold, uninviting waters. Not wishing to be rude, Allan duly obliged. Although the cold numbed his every limb and the experience was not the least bit agreeable he was heartened to note that he emerged from the waters completely cured. They did, of course, become fast friends, Allan and the ancient Indian. His name, he said, was Gordon. Gordon Van-Fleet. His mother was a (Shoshone?) Indian Medicine woman, his father, Dutch. In the weeks that followed Gordon taught Allan some of the mysteries of ethnic herbal medicine and lots of information about spirits and spiritual things. This encounter in the backwoods completely altered Allan's sceptical materialistic outlook. He returned to England in the fullness of time, abandoning his dreams of wealth amid the roughnecks of the oil business. He returned with an eager curiosity about all things spiritual and mystical. Thirsting not for some vague personal fulfilment, but for knowledge; facts that would support rational enquiry. Memory and hypnotherapy were among his first interests. These fields of enquiry led almost automatically on to the work of Arnold Bloxham and his research into past life memories. Anxious to establish a more analytical approach to the subject he concerned himself with the case of an eighteen-year-old girl who produced, under hypnosis, memories of nine previous lives. He sought any fact however trivial or seemingly unimportant that could be authenticated by archaeological evidence or written record. Being a clinical hypnotherapist does bring with it certain attendant responsibilities. Sometimes you actually have to deal with patients. And so it was about this time that a certain young lady with personal problems was referred to him. This poor girl beset with phobias and obsessions was generally in a bit of a mess; he began therapy with a light approach but soon discovered persistent memory blocks at certain points in her youth. Deep hypnotic regression was called for, but this only served to produce a very strong abreaction and deep trauma. Further therapy revealed disturbing memories of abduction, confinement against her will and being made the subject of painful medical tests performed upon her by sinister alien individuals. These events occurred while travelling alone in a car across Bodmin Moor at night. This case, and many others, has led Allan to conclude that alien abduction is not a genuine phenomenon, but is entirely a clinical condition. (A rather controversial statement which ruffled a few feathers amongst those in attendance. Editor) The evening's events concluded with a question time. Allan's answers touched upon crystals, Peyote tea (an halucinogenic brew made from cactus flower), the mysticism of the Lacota Sioux Indians, the Celestine Prophecies, and temporal lobe epilepsy, among other things. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ANNOUNCEMENT Investigators Required For Penwith and North Cornwall All those interested please telephone or email: Dave Gillham 01872 - 276381 cuforg@interweb-design.co.uk +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ CONTINUED IN PART TWO +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ All material used herein is Copyright =A9 1998-1999 C.U.F.O.R.G. unless otherwise stated. C.U.F.O.R.G. reserves the right to edit submissions where necessary. No unauthorised reproduction, posting on the Internet, etc without permission. Please ask - requests will usually be granted providing full credit is given. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 2 CUFORG: Skywatchers Newsletter --Issue 2, Part 2 From: Ian Darlington CUFORG <cuforg@interweb-design.co.uk> Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 21:58:47 -0000 Fwd Date: Tue, 02 Feb 1999 11:43:57 -0500 Subject: CUFORG: Skywatchers Newsletter --Issue 2, Part 2 Skywatchers Email Edition -- Issue 2 -- Sept.'98 - Jan. '99 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 'SKYWATCHERS' is a quarterly publication from the Cornwall UFO Research Group (C.U.F.O.R.G.), which was founded in 1995. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ PART TWO +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ C.U.F.O.R.G. SIGHTINGS Date/Time: Autumn 1996/5.15pm Location: Teynham, Kent Type/Size: Disc Case No. 116 (DG) REPORT A man was walking through Kent orchards to Teynham Railway Station on an Autumn evening in 1996, when he looked up and saw a disc-shaped object about 3000ft high up in the twilight sky. The object had a central white light on the underside and its outer edge had dull green, white, yellow and raspberry coloured lights. The witness immediately accepted that it was a UFO and felt "strangely calm" about it. He was surprised by his own reaction. The object was about =BC mile in front of him which would place it approximately over the village of Teynham. He observed the UFO for a few minutes then found himself close to the railway station unable to remember how the object had disappeared from his sight. He suspects he has several seconds or minutes of 'missing time'. No after-effects were noticed. * * * * Date/Time: 7th January '98/1.45am Location: Grampound Rd, Truro Type/Size: Ball of Light REPORT "On returning home from work at 1.45am, I entered into Grampound Road Village, very bright circular light flew over the top of my car at a considerable height. It came from the rear and flew forward in front of my car. I could see it above my car through the glass sunroof. As it got some distance in front, it appeared to drop in an arch behind some houses that were in front of me, I then lost sight of the object." * * * * Date/Time: 8th Feb 1998/3-4pm Location: Falmouth Type/Size: Ball of light Case No. 126 (DG) REPORT A lady in Falmouth got up in the early hours to let her cat out and whilst doing so, saw a bright white light surrounded by a halo in the sky towards Swanpool Beach. Between the stationary light and halo was a bell-shaped transparent 'film'. The object made no noise. The witness felt 'they' were aware of her and afterwards she felt bewildered and 'changed' in some way. She also noted that her dream recall and creativity has increased since the event. This lady had another strange experience on Saturday 31st January 1998, which is recounted here in her own words: "I had just got up. Put on the TV, flicking through the channels. On Channel 4 there was football (I think it was American). As I was watching the picture changed. For a moment I thought that we had gone back to the studio to discuss the game. I found myself looking at three men, they seemed normally dressed. The one nearest to me was looking 'side on' and appeared to be looking at something that I couldn't see. The man in the middle of the screen looked towards the man nearest to me and appeared to ask or tell him something. The third man didn't seem to move. All of this time there was no sound on the TV, although there had been sound for the football. Behind the three men covering the background were silver tubes, they covered the complete background. I hope I have made this as clear as possible. After seeing the UFO on the 8th February, I wondered if the two incidents were connected. While I was looking at the above I had the feeling that I was looking inside a spaceship. The picture was on the screen for about half a minute. Then it was back to the football." * * * * Date/Time: 24th March 1998/4-4.30pm Location: Truro Type/Size: Large low-level cigar Case No. 127 (DG) REPORT A mother was waiting to pick her children up in the carpark of Treyew School when she noticed a very black cylindrical object float past, in the gap between two houses. At first she thought it was a helicopter, but discounted this because of its shape, lack of noise and lights. * * * * Date/Time: 2nd Nov. 1990/11.45pm Location: Cairo Airport, Egypt Type/Size: Disc, 3 inches AAL Case No. 119 (DG/DJ) REPORT This sighting first came to our attention when the witness approached the CUFORG desk at the 1997 conference. He was curious about an object he'd seen whilst flying over Egypt eight years previously. The plane he was in had just started approaching Cairo airport (20 minutes from touchdown), when he looked down at the lights below and saw a disc-shaped object 3 inches in diameter at-arms-length (AAL). It appeared "like an old-fashioned hub-cap" and was flying in a zig-zag pattern on the left hand side of the plane, in the same direction but much faster. The object was dull silver in colour and had no lights (he assumed he could see it because the moon was shining on it). The witness is confident it was not another plane a balloon or a reflection. He estimated it was about 1000ft below the plane (which had begun its descent). No after-effects were noticed. * * * * Date: 11/7 28/7 1998 Time: 1am Location: Holland Length of Time: 5-10 seconds Size AAL: head of needle Type: Ball of Light REPORT "I was about to go to bed, I walked over to the curtains and was just enjoying the view for a minute. Then I noticed something in the sky, it was a small light which at first I thought was a searchlight of a helicopter, but then it made a very fast bend, first going down and then shooting up very fast. Then I lost sight of the object." There was one object sighted which made no sound. Its colour was white "like a normal light". The shape was not sharply defined and was quite bright. The weather conditions were a clear sky and dry, the sighting unfortunately was not filmed or photographed, there were no other witnesses and the object was viewed through a glass window. The witness reported no physical side effects but has had unusual recurrent dreams that they do not think are related to the sighting. The object did not seem to be aware of the witness. * * * * Date: 21/7/98 Time: 4am Location: Falmouth Length of Time: 2 mins. Size AAL: 1cm & =BD cm Type: Triangle and orb REPORT "I was awake and decided to get up. I went to the bathroom then downstairs to put the kettle on and put the cats out. I pulled the curtains in the dining room and saw a clear starlit sky. I stood looking at a star formation, it was first getting light, then I looked westward and saw a bright light moving; I got the binoculars and watched the light move in a zig zag movement then travelling very fast in a straight line across the sky. At one point I could see a more defined shape as it came out from behind the trees. It disappeared out of sight. Then I looked westward and could hardly believe my eyes because another light was travelling NWW - SSE by this time I was through the kitchen door out the back door and standing in the drive. The object was travelling very high and fast and very bright and was soon out of sight. The first object was shimmering and sort of pulsating and spinning. The second object was so bright and fast. (The atmosphere) was so still and silent I started to feel unsure of being outside because of what I had seen was no human aircraft but something very fast and bright." There were were two objects which made no sound. The colour was a bright, greenish light. The first object was more defined than the second and both were very bright. The weather was clear sky with no wind or rain. The sighting was not filmed or photographed and there were no other witnesses. The objects were viewed through a window and binoculars. There have been no side effects, no recurrent dreams and the objects did not seem to be aware of the witness. * * * Date: 25th July 1998 Time: 1.50am- 2.14am Location: Falmouth Length of Time: 20 minutes Size AAL: Unknown Type: Ball of light REPORT "Having been at a barbecue I returned home, went upstairs to bed I sleep in a loft conversion. There were a few stars but by and large the sky across Flushing, across to Roseland was overcast. From the corner of my eye my eye picked up a light. And then became more visual I watched it for several minutes before I phoned my neighbour. She came over and witnessed the light's movements backwards, forwards shooting at odd angles diagonally backwards then circularly. At approx. 2.14am what appeared as a small star moved off towards Penryn." There was one object seen, but the witness stated that at one point it seemed like two. It made no sound and appeared as a dim light above the cloud similar to a laser. It was dim until it veered off at speed "like a moving star". The weather was overcast with no wind or rain. * * * Date: 25/7/98 Time: 2am - 2.30am Location: Chacewater, Truro Length of Time: 15mins Size AAL: Unknown Type: Oval lights REPORT "I was walking home at 1.45am Sunday morning when I saw a big flash. I looked up to the sky and there were two objects in the sky floating around each other getting brighter then dimmer, then I wouldn't see and then they would come back again. I ran to the front door, got my key out of my bag and ran upstairs to my gran who was sleeping. I woke her up and begged her to get out and have a look, she did and so did my younger cousin. I watched for a while and then went to bed, but couldn't sleep. I pulled the curtain back and there were about three shooting stars." There were two objects that made no sound, they were alternately dull and bright white and shaped oval. There were scattered clouds with no wind or rain but with some fog/mist. The sighting was neither filmed nor photographed and there were two other witnesses. The objects were viewed both through a window and from outside. There were no reported side effects or recurrent dreams and the objects did not seem to be aware of the witnesses. The gran watched the lights for ten minutes and "thought it was weird". * * * Date: 30th July & 4th August 1998 Location: Foxhole Type: Experience REPORT A lady telephoned the UFO Hotline at the beginning of August to report some unusual experiences that her 3 year old daughter had been having in their new house. A few days later CUFORG chairman Dave Gillham, along with Ian & Elaine Darlington visited the lady in her home. Unfortunately, due to being upset the little girl was staying with her grandmother. The child awoke late one night screaming, saying she didn't like the "monsters in the room" with "big eyes". She said they were funny shaped eyes and the "monsters" were not very big (tall). After further questioning it transpired that the beings seem to have touched the girl on the tummy and she had a pain there. However, her mother questioned whether her daughter said this because she had the pain first. Between the two experiences, the child's mother believes she wtinessed a UFO at the back of the house. It was a large circle of light with a smaller light inside it and appeared to be above the cloud. It was a very pale mint green, dull "as if shining through fog". The lady claimed she felt no fear at the time as she "knew it didn't want me, it was (my daughter) they wanted. That seems a funny thing to say." Following the experience, the child has developed a fear of falling to sleep at night in her bedroom and has since become quiet and subdued at times, before which she was very lively. Also, a number of seemingly ordinary occurrences have bothered her, such as a noise on the television and being frightened of a swimmer in goggles. She has also had the recurring "bad dreams" most evenings during the experience events. Since meeting the child's mother and despite offering any support and help they may require, we have heard nothing more from the family and can only conclude that either the experiences have stopped or the little girl has overcome her fear. * * * * Date: 24th August '98 Time: 10pm Location: Truro Viewed time: 20 minutes Size AAL: star REPORT Four of us were in a parked car, but only two of us could see the object. We noticed a large helicopter in the sky which was following in trajectory a moving light. Each time the helicopter drew to within a reasonable distance the light disappeared. It reappeared ten minutes later only to repeat the same sequence of events. * * * * Date: October '78/'79 Time: 5,30pm Location: Praze-en-Beeble REPORT A very bright, white light was approaching from the east. As it neared I noticed another light behind that was moving in an arc like fashion (backwards and forwards). The speed at which it appeared to be moving was very fast and as it reached overhead it suddenly disappeared. * * * * Date: 23rd August '98 Time: 10.15pm Location: Truro Viewed time: 2 minutes Type: Changing shape Size AAL: Tennis ball REPORT I went into the back garden to observe the night sky, prior to possibly taking my telescope out. I then became aware of a strange object proceeding from north to south which appeared cloud like and moving fast. The object then proceeded to change its shape, elongating, until its appearance now resembled a circle. I felt very uneasy with a strange feeling of its awareness of myself. I then went to the front of my house just in time to observe the object proceeding southeast; it emitted no sound or lights. The object reminded me of a cobweb moving very fast. The object was last seen as a rod shape. The same phenomena was again observed from the back garden less than a week later, where its maneuvers were from due south to due north. * * * * Devon Investigation : Saturday 11th July 1998. Researchers: Judith M Jaafar & Malcolm Robinson, S.P.I. This case not only had information concerning UFO's but also contained elements relating to ghosts. Due to witness confidentiality, I cannot disclose in which particular town in Devon these incidents took place, nor am I at liberty to disclose the true identities of those individuals involved. What I can do is give a brief outline of what happened. At a later date, I shall be doing a full write-up of this case. For now though, here are some of the salient details. Malcolm Robinson. REPORT It took us just under 5 hours to reach our destination in Devon, in conditions that were wet and wild to say the least. Arriving at the location, we were met by witness, B.P. Who made us feel most welcome, after which we sat down to hear a most fascinating tale of strange goings on that have occurred in the witness' home. B.P. informed us that these strange events started in November 1991, and consisted mostly of ghostly manifestations in his home. It was around this time that all family members found it hard trying to sleep. B.P. related the time in which he woke up with 'something' pushing against his chest. He couldn't see what was causing this pressure. Most strange events tended to occur between the times of 03:00am and 03:30am, and all family members felt and sensed that 'something else' was in their room, with them. One night, B.P's wife woke up and saw what appeared to be four 'people' in her room. The only thing was, they were transparent and were wearing what appeared to be old fashioned clothing. Incredibly though, standing further back from them, was what she described as a tall 'grey' creature, similar it must be said, to the oft-reported greys of UFO lore Footsteps could also be heard pacing the hallway during the night, footsteps which couldn't be accounted for by any member of the family. B.P.. also stated that on some occasions he could smell the faint aroma of tobacco smoke, yet nobody in the house smoked. (B.P. and his son used to be smokers but gave it up some years ago). B.P.'s son also told us that on one occasion, in the early hours of the morning, he encountered a strange 'being' or 'thing' standing in his doorway. He could only describe it as looking something very similar to the children's cartoon character, 'Captain Caveman'. Unnerved, he pushed against this 'presence' and told us that it felt as if he was pushing against warm jelly, or warm air, but that there was a distinct substance to it. He said that it had long, straggly hair and looked decidedly hideous. After a few seconds, this presence started to decompose, as if to frighten him even, and then just 'melted away' and was gone. As the weeks progressed, more and more mysterious events unfolded in the home, and deciding that enough was enough, the family sought out the services of a Spiritualist who visited their home and conducted some form of 'cleansing ceremony'. This appeared to work for a few days, and things were decidedly quiet, but sadly events erupted again. B.P. went on to inform Judy and me of the time when the family heard distinct moaning and screaming coming from the son's bedroom, noises which were full of cursing and obscenities. Their initial thought was that their son had lost control and was upset at something, then they realised that their son wasn't at home! Upon entering their 26 year old son's bedroom, the terrified couple encountered....nothing!! On another occasion, B.P's son was coming home when he observed that all over the house were streaks of light. ''It was like a laser-light show'', he said. He also saw these streaks of light in some of the rooms in his house as he approached ever closer. B.P. and his wife have also seen what they call 'balls of light' appearing in their home. They are the size of tennis balls, although on other occasions they appear to be the size of ping pong balls. These lights will move around the house and then suddenly 'pop' into nothing. At no time have any members of the family been able to touch these balls of light. They again called for the Spiritualist chap to visit their house, where he again conducted a cleansing ceremony. This time it appeared to work, for no more apparitions were encountered, although the family did state, that although they have not encountered any ghosts over the past few years, they can still 'sense' them!! It was around the time that the ghosts began to depart, that B.P's son started to encounter the typical small grey appearing in his bedroom. He said that on a number of occasions he would wake up to find this small head with those big black wrap-around eyes, looking at him. But it was the way in which this head looked over him that proved most interesting to him. He stated that it moved in a very peculiar manner. B.P's wife also informed us of the time in which she had a strange dream, a dream of meeting, (as she called it), 'aliens'. Upon waking up, she experienced a painful feeling on the side of her head. Over the course of the next few days, her hair all fell out on this spot, and she was left with a small circular 'bald spot' on her head. She went to the doctor about this, but he was unable to offer her an explanation. However, her hair did return, but incredibly, not as you would normally have it. It grew back pure white! Thankfully, her normal hair colour did come back eventually. It was around this time that B.P. was in a situation which warranted the use of hypnosis. He couldn't recall where certain important documents were, and as they were vitally important to his legal 'situation', he felt that he should perhaps use hypnosis in an effort to retrieve those memories. And so he went along to visit a female hypnotherapist. However, this visit was to prove more incredible than he could ever imagine. For under hypnosis, B.P. related seeing 'alien creatures' with large cat-like eyes. He also told of seeing a saucer-like craft which contained a door or a hatch, and which was dark inside. He saw what looked like a radar screen in front of him, and then felt that he was travelling in this craft and seeing clouds passing below him as he looked out of a window. This, and other recollections came tumbling out during his hypnosis session. I should point out, that prior to this hypnosis session, B.P. had never witnessed any what could be termed 'aliens' in or around his home, and he still hasn't. It was only under hypnosis that these strange events unfolded. The family had no prior interest in UFOs, hadn't bought any books, but admitted to watching the odd T.V. show concerning them. At one point, as B.P. was relating these events, he started rubbing his head and complained of a 'soreness' just above the eyes. This only lasted a few minutes and then it subsided. One of the most fascinating episodes that B.P. related, concerned the time in which the whole family encountered something strange in B.P's bedroom. Things had become so bad that the family had started sleeping in the one bedroom. The mother and father slept in the main bed, whilst the son slept on a mattress at the side of the bed. This night B.P. woke up to find the whole room lit up by a shimmering glow. He awoke his son, and as the son diverted his gaze in the direction of the main source of light, he claimed to have seen a large grey 'being'. (B.P. did not see this being). They both looked at the mother, who was lying flat on the bed with her arms outstretched with her eyes shut. She was mumbling something but they couldn't make out what. As it later transpired, they found out that just prior to them seeing this strange light, the mother had in fact, been dreaming of seeing this 'alien' in her bedroom and tried to wake up to tell both her son and husband. Anyway, a few seconds later, this swirling misty light-effect rolled up into a ball, as if a large vacuum cleaner was sucking at it. It then dissolved into a small funnel of light, and with a 'pop' was gone!! For more information on SPI ENGLAND, contact Malcolm Robinson at 41 Castlebar Road, Ealing, London, England, W5 2DJ. Telephone: 0181 998 4936. Pager 04325 345753. Or E-mail Malcolm at:judithjaafar@compuserve.com To keep abreast on information regarding SPI SCOTLAND and SPI ENGLAND, visit our Web site at: http://corpex.com/users/archmage/spi/spihome.htm * * * REPORT This sighting has just been sent to us by the author of Haunted Scotland. The year was July 1991, I was with a friend and we were night fishing at a place called Burstwick Ski-pond, just outside of Burstwick, near Hull, East Yorkshire. The night in question was a clear evening with a very good view of the night sky no clouds millions of stars, in the night sky At around 2am a very large bright light rose from an adjoining field, to a height just above the tree tops (about 50 ft from the ground and to be honest I cannot really judge the height or the speed of the object, whatever it was). It traveled very slowly across the field to the right off where we were fishing. The light or object disappeared from our view; it made no noise at all. Although I only saw a light, not being able to see any other details. On the other hand my friend saw it as a disk shape object with pulsating white lights around its centre, it was the size of a double Decker bus or thereabouts. We fished on nervously but there was no further sightings of this light which has left us totally puzzled. * * * REPORT The following sighting was received by e mail from a couple who live in London and were on holiday in Poole, Dorset Summer of '98 My wife and I both saw something very strange. It was 9.55pm second week of August 1998 and we were both looking up at the very clear dark skies, that we are not used to seeing in London. We saw between 15 and 20 very, very high objects traverse the sky in less than 2 seconds, direction East to West, height 50,000 ft. They did not travel in a straight line, but swerved to and fro and made sudden sharp turns. I have seen many shooting stars etc; they were nothing like that. The objects were pink-orange in colour and were slightly fuzzy in appearance, as if out of focus. Just as my wife and I were looking in amazement, a second group of 10-15 then followed the first group. They too behaved in a similar way to the first group. I am a keen aviation fan and seen many aircraft of various types. None have crossed the sky as quickly as those objects seen that night. * * * REPORT The following Sighting was received from Arthur Straffon from West Penwith, St. Just, Penzance. I was returning from the local Spar shop at around 8pm on the evening of Friday 4th December '98, the weather had been showery, but warmer than the previous day which had been frosty, when I noticed a light flash in the sky in the direction of the south east, towards Chapel Carn Brea. I had just reached the top of the Carn, and was walking towards my garden gate. The light flashed on briefly, and took the form of a straight band connecting a spot below my immediate horizon to a height of roughly 30 degrees in altitude. It appeared to be behind the low cloud, the centre of the band was a bright, straight line similar to that of a laser beam or a focused, powerful torch, although the colour was white and not yellow, the bluish-white you would see from an electric discharge or laser. The band itself was diffuse, and the beam was vertical, not inclined in any way. At first, I thought that the light from the control tower at Land's End airfield had been switched on, though there is not normally any activity there after dark (there are no runway lights). The tower light flashes quickly and as I expected, there was another flash, but after an interval of about 3 seconds. Although this flash was identical in form to the first, it was some considerable distance to its left, but seemingly from the same elevation or height. After another 3 seconds, there was a third flash, once again considerably over to my left by about the same deflection. Obviously this was not the tower light. There was no noise, and no further action. If the beam had been coming from an aircraft such as a helicopter, as sometimes I have seen, then it was completely silent and moving across the sky at a very fast rate. I have never seen anything similar before, and cannot offer any explanation for the occurrence. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ CONTINUED IN PART THREE +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ All material used herein is Copyright =A9 1998-1999 C.U.F.O.R.G. unless otherwise stated. C.U.F.O.R.G. reserves the right to edit submissions where necessary. No unauthorised reproduction, posting on the Internet, etc without permission. Please ask - requests will usually be granted providing full credit is given. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 2 -=[For The Record]=- Re: Roswell UFO Museum and From: Wendy Connors <ProjectSign@EMAIL.MSN.COM> Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 14:52:47 -0700 Fwd Date: Tue, 02 Feb 1999 11:59:15 -0500 Subject: -=[For The Record]=- Re: Roswell UFO Museum and -----Original Message----- From: Bob Bush <BobBush@ROSWELL-USA.COM> To: CURRENT-ENCOUNTERS@LISTSERV.AOL.COM Date: Sunday, January 31, 1999 12:29 PM Subject: Response To Allegations Concerning The International UFO Museum And Research Center (Iufomrc) In Roswell, New Mexico >This posting is submitted at the request of the IUFOMRC: >Response To Allegations Concerning The International UFO Museum >And Research Center (IUFOMRC) In Roswell, New Mexico >Recently, several letters, ads, articles, etc. have surfaced on >the net and in print, concerning the IUFOMRC. This response is a >one-time and one-time only effort. Any additional letters, ads, >articles, etc. will not be addressed. >On September 28, 1998, the Museum hired an Office Coordinator, >with Board approval. The decision to hire a new Director was put >on the back burner until the business end of running the Museum >could be organized. The Museum, recognized locally as a mom and >pop organization, wanted to change its image into a >professionally run organization. The Board recognized the need to >instill policies and procedures in preparation for continued >growth and the potential need for additional staff. There has been no hiring of qualified staff versed in ufology since that date. >The new Office Coordinator=92s credentials include, but are not >limited to, the following: >* BA in Sociology from Loyola-Marymount University in Los >Angeles, California. >* MA in Human Resources Development from Webster University in >St. Louis, >Missouri. >* MA in Human Resources Management from Webster University in St. >Louis, >Missouri. >* MA in Computer Resources Management from Webster University in >St. Louis, Missouri. Is she a Ufologist capable of answering questions to those who may contact her office? Thought not. How then is Glenda qualified to oversee the building of a research museum supposedly dedicated to UFO research? >At no time has the Office Coordinator been addressed as the >Director, Acting Director, or Interim Director. In fact, when >approached with the idea of possibly working into the Director >position, the Office Coordinator let the co-founders know she was >not interested. As of July and August 1998 the museum had two exceptionally qualified applicants for the position of Director. If the museum was actually trying to become a "professional" organization, the board of directors would have jumped at the chance to get either one of these fine Ufologists. >Everyone at the Museum pitches in when needed, to perform the >duties of a Director. That's a scary thought in hoping something would get professionally, I do say. >On October 28, 1998, one employee was terminated; severance pay >was given. The employee was terminated with prejudice. She was told that she was doing a good job and was then terminated. Is it any wonder the NM Human Rights Office is currently investigating the museum? >One volunteer was asked to sever all ties with the museum. This >particular volunteer had been asked to leave on two previous >occasions, and at no time was ever a paid employee. >These two departures were not the decision of one individual. The >decision to terminate the employee and to sever ties with the >volunteer was unanimously voted on by an Executive Committee. >This committee included the three co-founders and a Board >representative as well as other staff members. Did the board vote for such an Executive committee? I don't believe this. >On November 4, 1998, the agreement with our then webmaster was >terminated (with severance pay). This termination was due to the >fact that the webmaster carried out a directive from the >volunteer who was no longer associated with the Museum and did so >without notifying the Museum. Was the webmaster notified of this volunteer's disassociation prior to working on the museum's website? Didn't think so. I know the former webmaster and she is an honorable person who would not do anything nefarious. >At this time, the Museum had also learned that the website domain >was actually registered to the webmaster instead of to the >Museum. This was unacceptable, as we were paying her to maintain >the Museum=92s website, not her own. The Museum would have >corrected this problem whether or not the webmaster was to be >terminated. Seems Ms. Wylder clarified the circumstances clearly in her letter. This is nothing but a side-step in avoidance and you should be ashamed of yourself. >In changing the domain name, proper procedure was followed. There >is nothing unethical or deceptive about this procedure. You >simply request a form, fill it out, notarize it, and send it in. >Internic either approves the change or not. In our case, Internic >approved the change. Of course it was improper. How can you give such a false statement here? >In addition, the Museum is now facing a lawsuit that could have >been avoided had the webmaster followed through with her assigned >responsibility of notifying the Museum when questionable material >was about to be placed on the net. Small wonder there is not more lawsuits against the museum at this time in my opinion. >The decision to terminate this webmaster and hire a new one, was >once again an Executive Committee=92s decision. Pursuant to the other false claims you have made, what justifies the list members to believe this? >The Museum made a verbal request of the webmaster, for a listing >of copyrighted material to include the dates of the copyright. >She was informed that any copyrighted material, that was not a >"work for hire", would be taken off the website. >No list was ever received. Nonsense. I've seen all correspondence between the museum and the webmaster. Glenda failed to answer anything. >Yes, we currently have two websites. However, the general public >is not aware of this. The old site has been left up while the new >site is under construction. As soon as we are ready to make the >switch to the new site, anyone calling up iufomrc.com will either >get a message containing our new address, or will simply receive >the new site. >As for the former Director, in her resignation letter to the >Board dated August 18, 1998, she states that her resignation, >effective August 20, 1998, was due to her new assignment with the >Ronald McDonald House in Lubbock, Texas. A great loss to the museum. I am sure there was a lot more behind Ms. Crosby's leaving than she found another job. >As for "heavy-handed" or "Gestapo" tactics at the museum: >* It is the Museum=92s policy to have the Office Coordinator open >and appropriately disburse the mail. This policy applies to all >mail received at the Museum unless it is stamped "Personal and >Confidential." >* It is the policy of the Museum that all matters concerning >personnel issues, overheard conversations, or any information >gained not be disclosed to others, inside or outside, the Museum. >* As far as looking through everyone=92s hard drives and e-mail, >this is not true. Not only is this statement ridiculous, but >there=92s not enough time in a day for this kind of policing of the >staff. >* One researcher, visiting the library, was asked to leave by one >of the Museum=92s co-founders. This co-founder was well within >rights, as the researcher was involving herself in personnel >issues, which were none of her concern. Sorry, Bob, you got this very wrong and are falsifying information deliberately. (Not at all unusual since you were not there and didn't know what the true story was) I was not asked to leave library by anyone. My being in the library looking through the Fawcett collection was questioned by Glenda. I told her that I was authorized by Mr. Fawcett for complete and unrestricted access to his collection at any time and was offer assistance on the best methods of archiving and displaying his collection. Glenda did not believe me, even though this is a fact and was on paper under Mr. Fawcett's signature (Signed original in my possession). The museum had a copy of this document, but Glenda was not about to look for it, call Mr. Fawcett for confirmation or take my word until she could get clarification. I even sent her a copy of the authorization when I returned back home. Her attitude was that, "no researcher would be allowed in the library unless they cleared it through the Office Manager (herself) and the Librarian." Well, I was there with approval of the Librarian at the time, Laura Stephey. The current Librarian (Mary Rose) was a part-time assistant at the time I was there. Glenda told me that I could not use the research library. So, Bob, get your facts straight. >Other allegations: >* Based on the current level of information being issued over the >net, should other ufologists choose to not visit the world=92s >largest and most complete UFO library, it=92s their loss. The IUFOMRC is NOT, nor DOES NOT, contain the world's largest and most complete UFO library. You make another dilerberate false statement here, Bob and are not qualified to assess this aspect. >* What other professional would develop a product for a client >worth $300,000.00 and then settle for a mere $200.00 a month as >compensation? What bearing does this have? She knows nothing about Ufology and couldn't answer a simple question regarding it if she tried. >* The current Office Coordinator makes almost 50% less income >than at her previous position. >* It does not take a ufologist to manage the Museum offices. >However, knowledge of the Roswell Incident and other data >pertaining to UFO=92s in general, has increased tremendously since >starting at the Museum. There is currently nobody on the staff at the UFO museum that can be considered a knowledgable Ufologist. Again, there has been no increase of knowledge regarding the Roswell Incident due to the people who work there. All knowledge passed to the museum's board members, etc. were given by long-time researchers. >In summary: >The Museum is doing fine and attendance is still high. There were >185, 713 visitors through the Museum in 1998. On an average, we >had 357 visitors per day. We also averaged visitors from 25 >states and 5 countries per day. And no well qualified Ufologist on staff to answer all of these people's inquiries truthfully or honestly. This is frightening since so much misinformation is out there. >The library project is moving right along, and we should be >announcing our grand opening early in the spring. Mr. George >Fawcett, one of the Museum=92s benefactors, is scheduled to be here >in February and will be our guest lecturer on Saturday night, >February 13th. Mr. Sabo, one of our other benefactors, recently >sent us a sizeable donation, earmarked for the new library. A research library operated by a Librarian without any knowledge of Ufology is a waste of resources. This is a fact that cannot be disputed. >As for those who want to continue trying to smear the names of >those associated with the Museum and who wish to continue making >allegations: life is, fortunately or unfortunately, all about >choices. Your choice is unfortunate. Nobody that I have read regarding their postings is smearing the museum. Seems the museum is smearing itself. Glenn Dennis has given multiple false names regarding information he said he had regarding the Roswell Incident. If this isn't the epitom=E9 of hypocracy, I don't know what is. Perhaps the board should look at this aspect of Mr. Dennis a little closer and see if it does bring respectability on the museum. >The choice to believe or not to believe, is fortunately, our >right. You got it right here, Bob. Personally, I don't believe you. >To reiterate, no further response will be forthcoming from the >IUFOMRC. And why is this, Bob? You are obviously the Shill chosen to pursue the course. An honorable institution would not release a statement and then remain silent unless it knew it was in a position that it could not justify those statements. This is absolutely shameful in my opinion. Wendy Connors Project SIGN Research Center InterLink Site Directory http://www.evansville.net/~slk/InterLink.html
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 2 CUFORG: Skywatchers Newsletter --Issue 2, Part 3 From: Ian Darlington CUFORG <cuforg@interweb-design.co.uk> Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 21:58:34 -0000 Fwd Date: Tue, 02 Feb 1999 11:44:36 -0500 Subject: CUFORG: Skywatchers Newsletter --Issue 2, Part 3 Skywatchers Email Edition -- Issue 2 -- Sept.'98 - Jan. '99 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 'SKYWATCHERS' is a quarterly publication from the Cornwall UFO Research Group (C.U.F.O.R.G.), which was founded in 1995. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ PART THREE +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ My Paranormal, ET and UFO Experiences: Part 3 By Elaine Darlington Due To Technical Difficulties We Inadvertently Lost The Final Section of Elaine=92s Article Last Time - The whole article is available at our Web site http://www.interwb-design.co.uk/cuforg/ or by email on request. My daughter told me of a strange dream she had. She, her younger brother and myself are at the school. A UFO passes over and shines down a light, her brother decides not to enter the light but my daughter seeing me enter, follows. Suddenly she cannot breath properly. It's as though she is in water and she can only manage shallow breaths. Suddenly she is pulled out by a being that is purple in colour that looks like my troll. She says he is stooped over and has bumps all down his back. He tells her she is not supposed to be this side, but she tells him she is with me. She wanders down the corridor and a triangular like paper plane passes her. The next thing she knows her and a friend are carrying out an action rather like peeling wallpaper and a door opens. She did not know who the friend was. In sight now is me and the Nethum, he is hugging me, his head is bent down to the side placing his face upon the top of my head. She says he is wearing a white robe of some sort and boots. He asks her what she is doing there and she tells him she is with me. He then tells her that I am a "chosen one." The dream then ends. I have told her how tall he is and what he looks like, but I have never divulged the fact that he hugs me in the exact way that she has described, neither have I told her of what he wears, yet this was again correct. Either she has witnessed something or she has read my mind and it has replayed in her dreams. On the 20th/21st August I awoke in the night and overheard a conversation. I was lain in bed and heard a car go by outside the house and two girls' voices talking. The conversation was "Did they hit it, what is it, ah it's a cat". The next morning I searched opposite the house and up and down the road convinced that one of my cats had been killed. All my cats turned up for their morning feed what a relief. I thought no more about it, I wished I had, I must have overlooked the fact that in the past all of my premonition become reality two days later. It was the night of the 22nd/23rd my cat Nala did not return to feed her three-week-old kittens. The morning came and I remembered my two-day lapse with premonitions and knew that she would not be coming home. Ian went outside and under the bush opposite the house lay Nala. On the 26/10/97 I am relaxing and thinking the visitors are welcome in my house anything I have they can share. I get up in the morning and my engagement ring is missing from my side drawers. Ian and I search everywhere, we roll back the carpet, check in the drawers. I begin to get upset, saying irrational things like "What's the point in wearing the other rings without that one." Eventually I calm down, I remember thinking how stupid, it doesn't feed you, keep you sheltered or warm, it really is a non-necessity. The day passes and we retire to bed checking to see if it has turned up, but no it's still not around. In the middle of the night there is a bang like a clap. When I get up in the morning there in full view is my ring. It is placed upon a board with a small figurine that I had made. The figurine is of a calf, when I fashioned it I was trying to make a cat but it was as though the clay had other intentions. Suddenly I realise that Orion and the Pleiades are in the Taurus section of the sky. This is where I believe my visitors' origins are, so it's just another strange coincidence. There have been so many coincidences, I could take forever to tell them all, so I won't go on. In 1994, I had a break down. I feel it sort of re-established the values that maybe I was not completely abiding by. What happened in 1996, I felt was like a slap around the face, a wake up call. That year my life really changed, humans eat such rubbish, they are right. Now I'm vegetarian/vegan and don't eat anything with preservatives, additives or E numbers. There are underlying reasons for this diet. My strict moral values and principles are firmly back in place. I will not play at the physical worlds game, if lying, cheating or trampling others is the only way to succeed then I shall be proud to have failed. Respect all life, understand balance and be responsible for your actions. If we as a race wish to join them we have a lot to learn, just as we have laws here, there are laws that govern the universe. As we have a police force and a criminal justice system to prevent those that break the law from inflicting harm on the law abiding citizens, so, are the laws of the universe. There are those that enforce these. If someone tells you there have to be bad ETs, yes but those races are kept upon their planets and in their own solar systems until they reach true advancement, then and only then are they permitted what would be termed inter-planetary travel. The human race upon Earth is being guided and helped to qualify for such a privilege, we can accept their help or continue with our destructive behaviour. If this should be our choosing I fear it will be a long time before we reach this position of opportunity again. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ The Sky At Night By Sue Herbert, Amateur Astronomer PART ONE Saturn the ringed Planet is the next step in our Solar System tour. The rings are composed of icy chunks, sized from fine dust, to house sized blocks, There are 3 broad rings visible from Earth lettered A.B.C. Hundreds of narrow ringlets, make up the rings. Between the A. and B. rings lies the Cassini division, where there are still ringlets, but less densely packed. Jupiter, Uranus, and Neptune, all possess rings, but none are so grand as the rings of Saturn. Saturn is one of the four gas giants, and the second largest Planet in the Solar System, it has a diameter at the Equator of about 120,800 KM. Rotation is very fast, so it flattens at the poles, and bulges at the equator, A day on Saturn is 10 and a quarter hours, and a year on Saturn is 29.45 Earth years. Saturn is a cold planet of gases and ice, with a surface temperature, in the region of -170/degrees celsius. Saturn has 24 Moons, Titan is the largest at 5,200 KM, with a diameter larger than Mercury. It is also the only Moon to have a detectable atmosphere consisting of a layer of gases above the surface. Saturns other moons are heavily cratered, with icy surfaces, each has a distinct character. Mimas has a huge crater named Herschel. when impacted the collision must have nearly torn the planet apart! The moon Iaptus is 900 miles in diameter, its trailing hemisphere resembles those of other satellites, but the leading hemisphere is one tenth as bright, and is coated with a dark reddish layer of unknown origin. Further Astronomical Terms. Galactic Centre. The centre of the Milky Way Galaxy as seen from Earth, which lies in the direction of the Constellation Sagittarius. G. Star a star with characteristics like the Sun. Galaxy. a collection of stars, dust, and gas, which appear to be arranged in aggregations called clusters, ranging from a few members, to several thousand. The different types of Galaxy are elliptical, Spiral, and Barred Spiral, and also a group of irregular shapes. Geomagnetic Storm, a disturbance of the interaction, of the Earth's magnetic field, in the magnetosphere with incoming charged particles, often a result of a Solar Flare. Observations include the Orionids Meteor Shower which will be at maximum 21 October. The planet Jupiter will be well placed in Aquarius, close to the line of the Ecliptic. Saturn will also be visible having risen in the eastern sky shortly after sunset. Mars will only be observable through a high powered telescope. Venus will be to close to the Sun for observing. PART TWO The Asteroid Belt, lies in-between Mars and Jupiter, and is our next stop on our Solar System Tour, Asteroids are also known as the minor planets. There are two regions in Jupiter's orbit where Asteroids can become trapped, they are called , The Lagrangian Points, the first is about one sixth of an orbit in front of Jupiter, and the other one sixth of the way behind it. Asteroids within this region are called Trojans, hence the Trojan Belt. We know the orbit of more than 15,000 Asteroids. They are rocky objects smaller than planets, vary in size, and are numbered and named, for e.g. Asteroid Ida is 32 miles long. In 1989, Henry Holte, discovered an Asteroid, that came within half a million miles of Earth, and in 1993 another approached to within 90,000 miles away well within the Moons orbit. There are also about 200 Asteroids, that have orbits which in fact cross the Earth's orbit, these near Earth Asteroids are all capable of hitting the Earth, and there are probably 10 times that number, a mile or more across to be found. Jupiter is the great giant Planet of our Solar System. It is over 300 times the mass of the Earth! and approx., two and a half times the mass of all the other Planets put together! Jupiter rotates fast! once every 10 hours. Jupiter has the largest storm on any of the Planets, the great RED SPOT which is a whirlpool of wind, it is 30,000 miles long and one third as wide, and is about four times larger than the Earth! Jupiter's four main Moons are fascinating, Io is being constantly ravaged by sulphurous volcanic eruptions it is the closest to the Planet and is the most effected by Jupiter's gravitational pull. EUROPA, is further from Jupiter with an icy surface, a planet wide ice rink! GANYMEDE and CALLISTO are situated further out, and have older surfaces, of ice and are scarred by impact craters. Jupiter, and its four main moons are easily visible in a small telescope, and if observing on a regular nightly basis weather permitting!! you will find on one night, the four moons are all visible, while on another only two may be visible. A final thought, Jupiter has all the ingredients to become a second SUN!! . A few more Astronomical Terms. Finder. A smaller telescope, with a wide field of view, which is attached to a larger telescope, to assist in locating celestial objects. Flare. A disturbance in the upper chromosphere of the Sun, in the form of a flame. This may be accompanied by the emission of increased numbers of charged particles, which have enough energy to reach Earth, and interact with the magnetic field, causing geomagnetic storms, and with the upper atmosphere, cause Aurora. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Classic Sighting From 1977 Report by Dionne Jones Penwith, Cornwall's western most peninsula, is the site of one of the county's earliest documented and most well known UFO cases. The famous Newmill incident which took place on 22nd September 1977 was written up in some depth by Terry Cox, then Bodmin representative of the UFO Investigators' Network (UFOIN), for the Flying Saucer Review (1978 Vol.24/1, p28). The tiny hamlet of Newmill, between St Ives and St. Just, is surrounded by the remains of ancient stone circles, menhirs, tumuli, hut circles and standing stones. It's a remote rural area, with an almost prehistoric feel in places, so little has changed here over the centuries. An Unexpected Visitor It was 9.30pm on a Saturday night, when Caroline Bond stepped out of the Old Post Office, which she was then restoring, to go to her moped by the door. The autumn sky was clear and the air still outside. Caroline was planning to go out for the evening, but as she stood by the door she had a feeling that her partner, Pete Boulton, had followed her outside and was standing behind her. She turned around and saw: "this kind of green-haze-thing no more than 4 metres away". Caroline walked up to the object until it was only 2 metres away, staring at in disbelief. Then she went to tell Pete what she'd just seen, alling it a 'ghost' because she didn't know how else to describe it at the time. When Pete came down, the mist was moving away. It went up the barn steps and crossed in front of the barn. They watched for about two minutes, then Pete went to fetch his glasses, which he'd taken off whilst decorating inside. Meanwhile, Caroline went round to the front of the house and asked a couple using the telephone kiosk outside their front door to come and look at the apparition. They arrived just as Pete was coming down the stairs, and at first they could not see the object, but then spotted it by a big tree on the edge of their neighbour, George Stone's, property. Caroline described it as, "sort of red and green and silver, flashing at a thirty degree angle above the tree," adding that, "it seemed to have something below it... it seemed as if was on top of another thing". Whilst initially describing it as a 'mist-thing', Caroline felt it was not a vapour. "If seemed quite solid. You could not see through if when it moved in front of the barn. In fact it blotted out the stones," she said. She did not hear any noise at all. Later in the interview with Terry Cox she said that when the object was above the tree she thought it appeared a bit elongated, although it was oval when she first saw it in the yard. It also seemed as if it was "on a sort of pole". The object "glided in front of the barn about two metres above the ground and seemed about one metre wide and bright. But it was brighter when it was up in the sky'. Reactions Afterwards Caroline felt quite excited and went looking for it the next night. She told everyone else about the object, saying that it seemed like a spaceship to her. She and Pete both sensed an intelligence behind its movements. Pete commented on how the object lit up the corner stones of the barn as it moved. He thought it odd that the object moved across the barn, then doubled back on itself before gliding towards the field. Other Witnesses The couple in the telephone kiosk were Bill and Sally Beard from Birmingham. They were staying with Sally's mother, Mrs. Gibbons, who had herself seen the object from her house nearby. George Stone also saw the object when it was above the tree beside his house. He, like all the others, also noticed a second similar object visible in the night sky, to the north- west. Mr. Stone said the original object was clearly visible in the northern sky until it vanished about half an hour from the start of his observation, while the one to the north-west was still visible when he went indoors. He and his sister continued to watch it from his bedroom window, until retiring for the night sometime between 11 and 11.30pm. All the witnesses agreed that the objects seemed to have red lights within a sharply defined green oval and appeared to meander about the sky, making tiny angular movements, at 'helicopter height'. Saucer in Redruth That same night (Sunday 18th September), in Redruth, there was another UFO incident. Mr. Anthony Laity, a civil servant from Crowlas, was driving on the Redruth bypass when he saw a saucer shaped object on his nearside at rooftop height. It had a glowing white dome on top and was a yellowish hue underneath. When he accelerated the saucer also increased its speed, moving on a parallel course until it faded into the distance. After Effects A week after the Newmill sighting, Caroline and Peter were struck by a mysterious illness which induced vomiting, muscular pains and headaches. Peter was most afflicted and was sent to hospital for testing, but the doctors remained baffled by his symptoms. Caroline, however, was diagnosed as suffering from appendicitis, but apparently, a perfectly healthy appendix was removed. Whilst the couple were excited and interested during the encounter itself, both became fearful afterwards (perhaps because of the effect on their health?). Caroline would no longer cross the moor unaccompanied after dark, even though this had not bothered her before. This change of behaviour was repeated by another local lady whom we interviewed after a ground level encounter in Zennor on 23rd May 1997 (see Skywatchers No.19). This particular lady had, however, read about Caroline's experience, indeed it was she who brought our attention to this article. Strange Perceptions The interesting thing about this case is the uncertainty about the appearance and nature of the object. At first it was perceived to be a kind of mist or 'ghost', then we are told it seemed quite solid, yet it's shape changed from oval to elongated and other colours became apparent when it moved over to the tree. The idea that it may have been a spaceship seems to have occurred after, rather than during the sighting, as the witnesses tried to interpret what they had just seen. If the object were a solid, physical vehicle, why was it so hard to describe? What kind of vessel can look like a mist and hover a few feet away from people without making any noise whatsoever? I don't think this is a 'nuts and bolts' UFO. From the description it seems more likely that what we're dealing with here is either a non or semi-physical object/force or a perceptory enigma, maybe even a bit of both. Did the villagers witness an as yet, unidentified energy - a fluid, possibly sentient, force which affected or interacted with their minds? Or was the object simply so strange that the human brain, having no familiar reference point with which to compare it, made its own interpretation, as it does when processing an optical illusion? I'm not saying that I think it was a hallucination, because too many people saw the same thing, but I'm not convinced it was a fully physical object. The symptoms that Caroline and Pete experienced after the encounter sound very much like the effects of exposure to a strong electromagnetic field. In fact this is true for most of the physical symptoms linked with abduction, UFO and fairy encounters. Exposure to EM (electromagnetic) fields can trigger headaches, dizziness, poor concentration, weakness, fatigue, nausea, insomnia, skin rashes, allergies, asthma and at very high doses even blackouts and heart failure. It can also affect the mind. But even if electromagnetic energy was present in this case, was it the cause of the experience or just a by-product? Did the witnesses experience an unusual energy form, or was the energy emitted by an object that they couldn't perceive clearly because of the EM effect? What came first the object or the energy? It's interesting that another object was seen in the sky once the first one had captured their attention, and that the 'UFOs' were seen again the following night when people went out deliberately looking for them. Were the objects/ controllers/ beings, exhibiting 'intelligent behaviour' by making a repeat visit, or were the witnesses by then in a sufficiently suggestible state to see anything? Perhaps the repeat performance indicates something special about the time - it did, after all, occur only a month before the infamous interception of an ITV Southern news broadcast by the Ashtar Galactic Command. Was this, then, a time of 'preparation?' +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ All material used herein is Copyright =A9 1998 - 1999 C.U.F.O.R.G. unless otherwise stated. C.U.F.O.R.G. reserves the right to edit submissions where necessary. No unauthorised reproduction, posting on the Internet, etc without permission. Please ask - requests will usually be granted providing full credit is given. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ CLOSING NOTES +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ENJOYED 'SKYWATCHERS'? If so, please tell others so they can request delivery of their free issue so they can find out how much they enjoy it too. Requests to: mailto:cuforg@interweb-design.co.uk READY TO SUBSCRIBE? If you've received one or more trial issues of Skywatchers and are ready to subscribe, here's how: SUBSCRIPTIONS AND MEMBERSHIP One year's subscription to 'Skywatchers' costs =A315.00 per year, single copies =A33.00. One year's membership of C.U.F.O.R.G. costs =A315.00 per year and includes free subscription to 'Skywatchers' and reduced admission to the Group's monthly meetings. SEEN OUR WEB SITE? If not, be sure to visit soon at http://www.interweb-design.co.uk/cuforg/ We're in the middle of a major update and now have a photo gallery of anomolous phenomena. Call soon and watch it grow as we add more sighitngs and articles from the printed edition of this newsletter NO MORE, THANKS? If you've recently been added to our mailing list and don't want to stay, send email to cuforg@interweb-design.co.uk with the message "Stop Skywatchers" UNTIL NEXT ISSUE... We hope you've enjoyed this issue of Skywatchers, thank you to all our recipients for your interest and support. Ian J. Darlington Editor, Skywatchers. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ All material used herein is Copyright =A9 1998 C.U.F.O.R.G. unless otherwise stated. C.U.F.O.R.G. reserves the right to edit submissions where necessary. No unauthorised reproduction, posting on the Internet, etc without permission. Please ask - requests will usually be granted providing full credit is given. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 2 08-20-96: MJ12 - An Estimate of the Situation From: Ed Stewart <ufoindex@jps.net> Date: Mon, 01 Feb 1999 14:50:15 -0800 Fwd Date: Tue, 02 Feb 1999 12:06:37 -0500 Subject: 08-20-96: MJ12 - An Estimate of the Situation Another item of mutual "authenticity" and proclaimed as such by both Stanton Friedman and the research team of Woods and Woods is the SCEO #092447 which is attachment A in the original alleged MJ-12 papers and cited in the new alleged MJ-12 papers. The following research posted in 1996 after another challenge by Stanton Friedman which showed his ignorance and lack of relevant research on his part on executive orders should clear any doubt on anyone's mind that the document in question is a hoax; and by extension, any new alleged MJ-12 document that cites the alleged MJ-12 executive order. Ed Stewart ----- Date: Sat, 24 Aug 1996 11:41:04 -0400 To: ianr@global-data.com From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ebk@nobelmed.com> Subject: UFO UpDate: Re: MJ-12 Document From: egs@netcom.com (Edward G. Stewart) Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: MJ-12 Document To: ebk@nobelmed.com (UFO UpDates - Toronto) Date: Fri, 23 Aug 1996 22:12:27 -0700 (PDT) >From: fsphys@brunswickmicro.nb.ca >Date: Sun, 18 Aug 96 00:53:32 -0400 >The Caus criticism is baseless. So proclaims nuclear physicist Stanton T. Friedman. Must be so. Then again, maybe not so fast. >The listing for Attachment "A" is "Special Classified Executive >Order #092447 (TS/EO)" NOT as >listed by CAUS as Executive >Order #092447 .(TS/EO means TOP SECRET/EYES ONLY). Special >Classified Executive does not mean the same thing as Executive. Since Stanton Friedman appears to "know" what it does not mean, maybe he would care to enlighten the rest of us as to what it does mean? >The Truman Library has also stated they have no classified >executive orders. That does not mean there are none. Relyea >has noted that there are hundreds of still classified >executive orders. What seems to escape nuclear physicist Stanton Friedman is that there are procedures in place for processing executive orders, whether they are classified or not classified, as established by THE FEDERAL REGISTER ACT of 1935 and amended by Franklin D. Roosevelt's Executive Order #7298 "Regulations Governing the Preparation, Preservation, Filing, and Distribution of Executive Orders and Proclamations" and later EO# 10006, but it is President Roosevelt's EO and the original ACT that is relevant for this time period and discussion. In essence, when the President of the United States wanted to issue an Executive Order he had to send the proposed executive order, classified or not, to the Director of the Bureau of the Budget. If approved, it would be submitted to the Attorney General. If approved, it would be submitted to the Director of the Division of the Federal Register. If it met all other requirements, such as, "The authority under which the order or proclamation is promulgated shall be cited in the body thereof", then it would be returned to the President for his signature. On orders classified by the White House, the following procedures were in effect: "Classified orders were numbered by the Office of the Federal Register according to the system established earlier at the State Department [Before the Office of the Federal Register, the State Department handled Executive Orders]. A classified Executive Order was not assigned a number until it was declassified. At that time, it was inserted in its proper chronological sequence by assigning it the same number as an order issued on or about the same date and adding a letter or fraction suffix." ---From the "CIS Index to Presidential Executive Orders and Proclamations" CONGRESSIONAL INFORMATION SERVICES The problem with the Trumman/Forrestal "Special Classified Executive Order #092447" has nothing to do with it being "classified". The problem with it is that it should not have any numbering to it whatsoever! Since it was allegedly classified. Clearly, classified Executive Orders were only numbered after they became declassified. What is ironical, is that various types of executive orders are excluded from the Federal Register Act and thus exempt from the Numbered series inclusion requirement, such as: "Presidential directives, decisions, determinations and other types of Presidential orders other than those formally labelled Executive Orders or Presidential Proclamations." ---From the "CIS Index to Presidential Executive Orders and Proclamations" CONGRESSIONAL INFORMATION SERVICES The fact that the alleged Trumman/Forrestal memo is clearly labelled as a Presidential Executive Order, means that it would NOT HAVE ANY number to it whatsoever since it was allegedly "classified", a subtlety the hoaxer apparently was not aware. Also, it would have been so easy for the President of the United States to have issued a Presidential directive not labelled an executive order and have avoided bringing in the Director of the Budget, the Attorney General and the Director of the Federal Register into the MJ-12 team. Were there such presidential instruments in place? YES. Presidents of the United States have over the years issued National Security Action Memoranda (NSAM), National Security Decision Memoranda (NSDM), National Security Study Memoranda (NSSM), Presidential Directives (PD), Presidential Review Memoranda (PRM), National Security Decision Directive (NSDD), National Security Study Directive (NSSD), National Security Directive (NSD), or Presidential Decision Directive (PDD) and Presidential Review Directive (PRD), what Clinton uses today. None of them require inclusion into the Federal Register, but Executive Orders, classified or not, are governed by the Federal Register Act and do require the participation of the Director of the Federal Register, the Attorney General and the Director of the Budget in the execution of the Executive Order. Another instrument that has been used since the inception of the National Security Act of 1947 and was available at that time was the creation of a NSCID, a National Security Council Intelligence Directive, which is an executive level directive intended to provide guidance to all of the elements of the intelligence community. NSCID No. 1 was issued in 1947 and it is thought to detail the "Basic Duties and Responsibilities" for the DCI, Director of Central Intelligence. >Nothing like research by proclamation and prejudice rather than >investigation and rationality. Was this "research" conducted >by Mail or in person??? Disgustedly, >Stan Friedman It was conducted by mail, by computer, by phone with the Eisenhower Library, the ISOO, the NSC, the CSI, and verified in person at the California State Law Library with the aid of a research specialist at the Law Library. Of interest here may well be that not only has Stanton Friedman, after having visited 15 archives, NOT ever seen a "Special Classified Executive Order", but neither has Dr. Pankratz of the Eisenhower Library (verified by phone, nor has Director Steven Garfinkel of the Information Security Oversight Office (ISOO), the monitoring agency created by President Carter (verified by phone), nor a representative (name and phone on file) of the Division of Records Management within the National Security Council. But maybe, just maybe, Stanton Friedman has since he appears to "know" what a "Special Classified Executive Order" is not. What is exceedingly clear is that the fabricator of the Trumman/Forrestal memorandum had no business calling it a special classified executive order and assigning it a number of any kind. Something only an "outsider" would do. (GRIN) Ed Stewart --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ed Stewart - egs@netcom.com - |So Man, who here seems principal alone, "There is |Perhaps acts second to some sphere unknown. Something Going On!" ,>'?'<, | Touches some wheel, or verges to some goal, -Salvador Freixedo- ( O O ) |'Tis but a part we see, and not a whole. -------------------ooOO-(_)-OOoo------- Alexander Pope, Essay on Man -------
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 2 Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net> Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 18:17:48 -0600 (CST) Fwd Date: Tue, 02 Feb 1999 12:10:29 -0500 Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net> >Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >Date: Mon, 01 Feb 99 12:41:36 PST >Dennis, >I don't know if this is a serious question, but I'll act as if >it were. Let me ask one in return: >How many people in other traumatic situations -- combat, >assault, rape, and the like -- volunteer the information that >while being terrorized and traumatized they accidentally >defecated or urinated? Jerry, By way of an addendum to my previous post re the above: Ironically, I stepped out of the shower this afternoon and turned my attention to the TV, which was tuned to the NBC national evening news, Tom Brokaw anchor. Cut to the first commercial I saw -- about a product to combat "vaginal dryness." I don't know whether to continue being a hip, 90s-type person, or sink into some sort of postmodern sulk. I'm watching the NBC national news and there's some woman on there talking about vaginal dryness? Get with it, dudes and dudesses. Welcome to the 90s. If you get abducted and soil your shorts, it's politically correct to tell your investigator (or hypnotist) about it. In fact, curious minds like mine would like to know. Dennis
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 2 Nick Pope's Weird World From: Georgina Bruni <georgina@easynet.co.uk> Date: Tue, 02 Feb 1999 01:45:48 +0000 Fwd Date: Tue, 02 Feb 1999 13:18:40 -0500 Subject: Nick Pope's Weird World Hot Gossip UK February'99 Nick Pope's Weird World The countdown to the new Millennium is now well underway, and people are already beginning to ask that question we'll all be hearing, increasingly, over the next few months: "So what are you doing for the Millennium?". Will we be going to the mother of all parties, or will paranoia about Y2K bug chaos keep everyone at home for the mother of all anticlimaxes? There's already a lot of PMT (Pre-Millennial Tension) in evidence, and there's only one thing about which we can be certain: as the year goes by, things can only get increasingly weird and wacky. Amidst the chaos, I'll be keeping you up to date with the latest news and views about UFOs, alien abductions, the paranormal, and other weird stuff. New MJ-12 Documents Depending upon your point of view, the MJ-12 documents are either the best evidence that the US government knows that some UFOs are extraterrestrial =8A or are simply an outrageous hoax. I tend to think it's a hoax, but now there is fresh controversy over a new batch of documents that has appeared. For those who don't know the background, it's claimed that in the aftermath of the crash of an extraterrestrial spacecraft in 1947, near Roswell in New Mexico, a small group known as Majestic-12 was set up to study the craft and the alien bodies. The first batch of documents were sent on film to US film producer Jaime Shandera. When developed he had what seemed to be an eight page briefing paper prepared in 1952 for president-elect Dwight Eisenhower. The material was subsequently published in the US by Shandera and Bill Moore, and in the UK by Timothy Good in Above Top Secret. It was investigated at great length by a number of ufologists, most notably Stanton Friedman, whose book (co-authored with Don Berliner) Crash at Corona is probably the best of the many books to have been written on Roswell and MJ-12. It will be interesting to see Stanton's view on the new documents, and fascinating to watch developments over the coming year. Weird Stuff On The Web Fans of Fortean Times and UFO Magazine might like to check out their websites. Go to www.forteantimes.com and www.ufomag.co.uk for more information. Congressional Immunity For UFO Witnesses? Another initiative making the news in America is a campaign to grant congressional immunity to anybody speaking out about official involvement with UFOs. The public position of the American Government on UFOs is the same as the British Government's. Essentially, this consists of a denial that there is any official knowledge of an alien presence. In that case, argue ufologists, would there be any objection to granting congressional immunity to any members of the military or the intelligence community who wanted to speak openly about the subject? After all, if the information doesn't exist, nobody could come forward. The campaign was given a real boost by ufologist Peter Robbins, who raised the issue at a public discussion of secrecy policy, last year. Senators Daniel Patrick Moynihan and Bob Kerry agreed that they would be willing to support such a move. Will this move get wider support, and be enacted? Could it ever happen here, in the UK? I'll keep you posted. Jung At Heart Over the past few months I've been highlighting some varying theories about UFOs and alien abductions, to illustrate the fantastic range of beliefs about such phenomena. I've looked at the idea that UFO sightings might be generated by sightings of prototype military aircraft, or the theory that aliens are time travellers from the future. This month, I want to look at something called the psycho-social hypothesis. Supporters are stronger on what they don't believe in than what they do, and if they put half as much effort into building their own theory as opposed to knocking the extraterrestrial hypothesis, they'd be taken more seriously. They do have some interesting ideas, believing that UFOs or alien abductions might be internally-generated, psychological rather than physical events. These almost visionary experiences are then shaped by personal belief systems and popular culture, and hey presto, we get UFO and abduction reports. There's a lot of flowery pseudo-science, and supporters quote the psychologist Carl Jung without really appearing to understand his theories, and seemingly unaware of just how much Jung's ideas were disputed by other psychologists. Check out www.magonia.demon.co.uk for more details. Abductions All Around the World I'm often asked why it is that alien abductions (and indeed UFO sightings) seem to occur almost exclusively in Britain and America. The answer is that they actually take place all around the world, but we think they only happen in the UK and the US because these are the countries whose media we can most easily access. My caseload of abduction reports for the last year has included accounts from people not just in Britain and America, but also from Canada, Australia, New Zealand, South Africa and Japan. So why no reports from, say, Chad, Yemen or Nepal? A key factor is language, as the best-known researchers come from English-speaking countries, so that material in other languages doesn't get much of a look-in. A related constraint is simply that abductees in countries such as Chad are less likely to be aware of the work of Western researchers. So our lack of reports from any particular country doesn't necessarily mean that nothing's going on. It may just mean that the reports aren't getting to us. Dr J Allen Hynek, Scientific Adviser to the USAF's Project Blue Book, was fond of pointing out that we don't study UFOs, but rather reports of UFOs. The same is true of alien abductions, and we must never underestimate the way in which good or bad lines of communication plays a part in determining what cases we do - or don't - get to hear about. As the Internet makes communication easier (although it's still dominated by the English language) it will be interesting to see whether reports will emerge from a wider range of countries. New Crop Circle Controversy A BBC1 programme broadcast on 3rd January has renewed the debate about crop circles. Some people believe they are caused by extraterrestrials, while others favour the idea that wind vortices could create the patterns - certainly the more straightforward circles. Others believe the cause is more down to earth, and think the patterns are made by people (whether you call them hoaxers, vandals or conceptual artists depends on your point of view). Country File Special featured an interview with self-confessed circlemaker Doug Bower. Doug's confession that he and Dave Chorley had made the patterns (not all of them, of course) with a plank of wood and a piece of rope effectively ended mainstream interest in the phenomenon. But in a throwaway line, Doug said he felt he'd been "programmed" by some unknown force to make the patterns. Was it a serious opinion, or is this likeable practical joker still winding everybody up? We'll probably never know. Focus Always worth a read, the magazine Focus carries a range of interesting articles and features on the weird and wonderful. The emphasis is on popular science, but they're not afraid to tackle the world of the paranormal. In the February edition of the magazine, which is out now and available from all good newsagents, there's an in-depth feature on my official Ministry of Defence research and investigation into UFOs and alien abductions. It's based on one of the lengthiest and most detailed interviews I've ever given, so if you want some insights into what have been dubbed "the real X-Files", check it out. Blast From The Past A new and regular feature of this column will be a re-examination of some classic old UFO books, and each month I'll recommend a title and pick out a particular quote - sometimes prophetic, sometimes profound, and sometimes humorous. I'll start with a book that every serious ufologist should read - The Report on Unidentified Flying Objects. It was written by Edward J. Ruppelt, one of the former heads of Project Blue Book. It's an important book that tells of his struggles to conduct a meaningful evaluation of UFO data for the United States Air Force, while also trying to keep the politicians, the media and the public happy - a difficult balancing act, and one that gave me similar problems at the Ministry of Defence, forty years after Ruppelt's groundbreaking work. But my favourite quote from the book is one which while acceptable in the Fifties, now sounds dated and more than a little politically-incorrect: "In Air Force terminology a "flap" is a condition, or situation, or state of being of a group of people characterized by an advanced degree of confusion that has not quite yet reached panic proportions. It can be brought on by any number of things, including the unexpected visit of an inspecting general, a major administrative reorganisation, the arrival of a hot piece of intelligence information, or the dramatic entrance of a well- stacked female into an officers' club bar." Nowadays, I'm sure such a politically-incorrect phrase wouldn't get past the copy-editor and into a serious non-fiction book, but I have to admit that it really does convey the sense of what Ruppelt was trying to convey. And my (female) research assistant thinks it's hilarious! The High Moral Ground (Not!) A noted UFO "anorak" criticised the excellent new Grenada TV series Watch the Skies in a recent Internet post, stating that he and another UFO group had decided not to play any part in the project because they didn't agree with the angle which they felt the series was taking. Admirable, if true. Unfortunately for him, he let the cat out of the bag a few lines later, with a sniffy comment about how Grenada weren't prepared to pay a "research fee". Oh dear! Abduction Conference The Intruders Foundation are to hold their first conference, in what promises to be the most important event on abductions since the Abduction Study Conference held at MIT in 1992. Featured speakers include Budd Hopkins, Stanton Friedman, David Jacobs and Jerome Clark, together with Linda Cortile, Greg Sandow, Carol Rainey and John Velez. The conference is to be held in New York on Saturday 10th April, and further details can be found at www.if-aic.com/ifconference. New Opinion Poll on Alien Life The February edition of the popular science magazine Focus contains details of an extraordinary new opinion poll on alien life. While 50% of those polled believed in alien life on other planets, a massive 80% said that if governments knew about this, they wouldn't tell the public. Spaceguard UK I'm an Associate member of Spaceguard UK, a group set up to raise awareness of the danger posed to the Earth by comets and asteroids, and to lobby for some official action. Films such as Deep Impact and Armageddon have done a lot to raise the profile of this issue, but there is some deadly serious science behind the science fiction. For those who want further information, or want to join this worthy organisation, check out http://ds.dial.pipex.com/spaceguard/. Revenge of the Anoraks Ufologists, and those with an interest in the subject, are a smashing bunch of people. Generally speaking they're a bright and friendly bunch, and I'm proud to be involved in this fascinating area of study. However, as with most things in life, there are a small bunch of people who seem determined to spoil it for everybody else, and are bringing the subject into disrepute. These are the so-called "anoraks", who find it easier to criticise other people's research than to produce any of their own. Their dogmatic beliefs and sloppy research shame ufology, and when they disagree with something, they launch destructive and personal attacks as opposed to producing constructive criticism. I normally stay out of this rather unpleasant side of ufology, even though I've probably been the victim of more ill-informed sniping than most (generally from closed-minded people who believe that because I investigated UFOs for the Ministry of Defence, I must automatically be lying). So in last month's column I decided to have a few sly digs at some of these "anoraks". So, could those who dish out the criticism take a little themselves? Could they hell! There was a flurry of spam on the Internet and the mass stamping of petulant little feet. There was also a flood of absolutely bonkers accusations - yes, even more bonkers than claims about being shot at by guards at an underground city. My favourite was the one about my brother being in the Navy - presumably making him part of some secret UFO cover-up being perpetuated by the Pope family? His naval career is obviously so secret that even he doesn't know about it, and the nearest he's got to a life on the ocean wave has been a few trips on the Isle of Wight ferry! But absolutely the most hilarious response to my gentle mocking was what happened when I referred to one well-known "anorak" (who I generously didn't name) as a windbag. Hot Gossip UK then received two separate protests from people who both thought I was talking about them! Hey, if the cap fits ... ! Ed's Note: Nick Pope's books, The Uninvited and Open Skies, Closed Minds,are available from all good bookshops, in paperback. His publishers in Britain are Simon & Schuster. The Uninvited is available in the US, published by The Overlook Press, who plan to publish Open Skies, Closed Minds later this year. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Permission to distribute this text providing the authors and publication are credited. Photographs may be copyright and cannot be used without consent. =A9 Hot Gossip UK 1998 www.hotgossip.co.uk The above text is taken from 'Nick Pope's Weird World' section =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Georgina Bruni E-mail: georgina@easynet.co.uk E-mail: 104707.336@compuserve.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * HOT GOSSIP UK www.hotgossip.co.uk Celebrating three years on the internet Britain's first on-line Gossip Magazine * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * COMMENT FOR TODAY You are only as good as you think you are
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 2 Re: Apocalypse Pretty Soon From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com> Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 22:14:03 -0500 Fwd Date: Tue, 02 Feb 1999 12:47:31 -0500 Subject: Re: Apocalypse Pretty Soon >Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 17:41:06 -0800 >From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: Re: Apocalypse Pretty Soon >Dear Mr. Heard: >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >>From: Alex Heard <aheard@wired.com> >>Re: Apocalypse Pretty Soon> >>Please check out my Web site: http://www.apocalypseprettysoon.com >>Apocalypse Pretty Soon, the book, hits stores in February 1999.> >I just visited your website. It's a scream!> >- LH I'm going to have to change the name of my UFO/FBI book to something more attuned with the times, such as 'Almost Apocalypse' or 'In Advance Of The Apocalypse' or 'Suddenly Apocalyptic' or 'Romeo And Apocalypsa' or 'The Apocalypso - A Dance, Starring Hairy Banana' etc.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 2 Re: MAGONIA Monthly Supplement No. 11 January 1999 From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com> Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 22:13:48 -0500 Fwd Date: Tue, 02 Feb 1999 12:42:58 -0500 Subject: Re: MAGONIA Monthly Supplement No. 11 January 1999 >From: Tim Matthews <matthews@zetnet.co.uk> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: Re: MAGONIA Monthly Supplement No. 11 January 1999 >Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 12:55:51 -0000 >>Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 18:35:24 +0000 >>To: "updates@globalserve.net" <updates@globalserve.net> >>From: Mark Pilkington <m.pilkington@virgin.net> >>Subject: MAGONIA Monthly Supplement No. 11 January 1999> >>MAGONIA Monthly Supplement > >>(or the supplement formerly known a>s ETH Bulletin) >>Interpreting contemporary vision and belief <snip> >>UFOtrash. Each member of the Magonia editorial team is equipped >>with a delicate scientific instrument, known as a Crap Detector. >>I should have left mine switched off when I tuned in to Channel >>5 on 4 January to watch Stranger than Fiction: The Great UFO >>Conspiracy. No sooner had the familiar and, er, distinctive, >>features of Stanton Friedman appeared, and before he even opened >>his mouth, my Crap Detector indicator showed "Overload" and its >>chips were fried, or whatever the technical term is. The other >>persons talking utter garbage in this programme were Wendelle >>Stevens, Bruce Maccabee, Nick Pope, Timothy Good and Robert >>Oechsler. Need I say more? >You ought to use the crap detector on your own bulletin! I do not know what this show was that I appeared in. I have done several for British TV. Perhaps someone would be so kind as to remind me what/which "crap" I was spewing forth in the Channel 5 show on January 4?
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 2 Open Letter: MJ-12 & Dr. Wood From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@get2net.dk> Date: Tue, 02 Feb 1999 03:39:24 GMT Fwd Date: Tue, 02 Feb 1999 12:59:23 -0500 Subject: Open Letter: MJ-12 & Dr. Wood Source: "alt.ufo.reports". Stig *** From: "Sid Fiber" <dataVoid@hotmail.com> Newsgroups: alt.paranet.ufo,alt.ufo.reports Subject: Open Letter: MJ12 & Dr. Wood Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 16:49:58 -0800 (Background: This is an open letter to Dr. Bob Wood and his son Ryan Wood who are attempting to authenticate the validity of the MJ-12. These documents allegedly document the US government's efforts to conceal the discovery of extraterrestrial beings and crafts during the 1940s.) Dear Dr. Wood-- If Truman, Bush, Einstein, and others authored the Majestic 12 documents, then the methods of forensic-linguistics will conclusively prove it. Several years ago, Dr. Donald Foster of Vassar College devised a brilliant statistical method for determining the authorship of a document that he has since applied in dozens of court cases requiring verification of document authorship. In 1996, Foster successfully pegged Joe Klein as the anonymous author of Primary Color, the tell-all White House novel. Also, at the request of the FBI, Dr. Foster conclusively verified that Unabomber suspect Ted Kaczynski had indeed authored his invective manifesto. Foster first gained prominence by successfully applying his technique to solve an age old mystery surrounding the acting roles of Shakespeare. His breakthrough--hailed by Elizabethan scholars and computer scientists, alike--was to assume that even Shakespeare was prone to linguistic habits which revealed themselves through statistical comparison. Please read the following article for details. Clearly Dr. Wood, if you were to apply Dr. Foster's technique to the MJ-12 documents, you will be a giant step closer to conclusively verifying the authorship of these intriguing documents. If you're interested, the following article contains further details about Dr. Foster's work. You can contact him at foster@vassar.edu or call Vassar at extension x5634. Thank you and good luck. --Sid Fiber >From the book "Interface Culture, How New Technology Transforms the Way We Create and Communicate" By Steven Johnson pg. 155 - 260 Can a machine make sense of language without learning how to read? To answer that question, we need to venture back to one of the enduring mysteries of Shakespearean scholarship, a mystery that was solved by the statistical analysis of digital technology. Of all the arcane puzzlements of Elizabethan literary criticism, few have been as tantalizing, and elusive, as the details of Shakespeare's acting career. For generations, scholars have known conclusively that the Bard performed in every play that he wrote; in two plays, in fact, we know which parts he played: the ghost in Hamlet and Adam in As You Like It. His other roles, however, remain a mystery. Because records of the Globe Theater's production schedule have survived through the ages, we know the run dates of each play in the oeuvre. We also have a reasonably accurate chronology for his writing career, which means that we can gauge with some precision the overlap between performance and composition. In other words, we know that Shakespeare was writing King Lear while he was acting in Othello, and that he was acting in The Merchant of Venice while he was writing Henry IV we just don't know the parts he was playing at the time. Or at least we didn't know until Don Foster stumbled across a brilliant, and strangely reassuring, idea. If Shakespeare had indeed memorized the lines for a part in one play while composing the script for another, then perhaps there had been a little seepage between the two. Perhaps the ritual of performing every night had lodged certain words in Shakespeare's head, like the detergent jingle from morning TV that hounds you through the workday. Anyone who writes for a living will recognize this phenomenon immediately. Words cycle through our daily vocabulary at different rhythms. Certain words stick with us for life, and remain immediately accessible to us at any moment: the names of loved ones, the building-block grammar of our native tongue, the primary colors and cardinal numbers, and so on. Other words wax and wane, in sync with forces larger than the individual speaking them: the fashionable vagaries of slang, the geek-speak of technological innovation, the "ethnic" idiom derived from broader demographic trends. (Think of the influence of black English on the mainstream American dialect over the past twenty years.) Most words, however, lie somewhere in between: drifting in and out of our regular vocabulary, like a band of itinerants cursed with a hankering to settle down. The word profound strays into your head and sits there for weeks, at the very edge of consciousness, primed for use. And for weeks, whenever a situation arises that demands a tone of seriousness or intensity or ironic overstatement, the word profound rolls out like clockwork. But soon enough another contender implants itself (major, let's say, or crucial), and profound retreats to the darkened wings of occasional use. Foster's breakthrough was to assume that even the great Shakespeare might be prone to the same linguistic habits. Was it possible, Foster asked, that words from Shakespeare's memorized lines were accentuated in the Bard's vocabulary during the run of each play? Could the language of Shakespeare's acting career have infected his play writing? It took a computer to answer the question, a computer specially programmed to track Shakespeare's use of statistically meaningful words, words that he used fewer than ten times in his career. The computer analyzed the distribution of these words on two levels: first, their appearances in individual parts (Hamlet's ghost, say, or Midsummer's Lysander); and second, their appearances in entire plays. If Shakespeare the actor was influencing Shakespeare the playwright, then certain plays curve; instead, progress happens in a nonlinear, staggered fashion, with steady, incremental growth punctuated by sudden leaps forward. Take a bowl of water and gradually lower the ambient temperature in the room; for a stretch of time, the change is linear: the water gets colder as the temperature drops. But at a certain point a threshold is crossed, in this case the threshold of zero degrees Celsius, and suddenly you have not colder water but ice, a new property, fundamentally different from the preceding one. A slower machine, equipped to handle less textual information, is nothing more than a literary bean counter good for generating a concordance for a single document, but not terribly sophisticated otherwise. But ramp up the processing power significantly, far enough to do a comparative study of word use in hundreds of documents, not just one, and you hit a threshold point, a singularity. The number cruncher becomes a literary sleuth, outsmarting tenured professors and armchair Shakespeare buffs. In his Atlantic article, Dolnick speculates that Foster's software is a "sign of things to come" for literary studies. But the promise of literary computing extends well beyond the obscure details of Elizabethan drama. By the end of the decade, most personal computers will sport a version of Foster's program as a basic tool in the human interface, as essential to the user experience as windows and icons are today. Perhaps the most startling thing about the Foster study is the simplicity of the program he used. The statistical properties of language, after all, are not limited to word frequency. There are, in fact, hundreds of attributes that the computer can use to build a numerical model of a given text. Which properties you decide to track depends on what you're looking for. Let's say you're trying to gauge the relative complexity of a document - would be littered with the vocabulary from a part in another, earlier play. The scattering of high-information words would be so light and varied as to be unnoticeable to humans, but the computer's prodigious pattern-recognition skills would track it down in a matter of hours assuming, that is, that Foster's hunch was correct. The results that came back from the lab turned out to be as precise and clearly defined as a fingerprint. Each play possessed a mirror-role in another play, revealed by the shared idiom of high-information words, like a family of orphans reunited by the science of DNA testing. In each instance the overlap followed the chronology of performance and composition. The results actually exceeded Foster's expectations. The analysis, as Edward Dolnick reported in The Atlantic, could be confirmed from a number of different angles: "It never assigns to Shakespeare a role we know another actor took. The roles it does label as Shakespeare's all seem plausible male characters rather than women or children. The test never runs in the wrong direction, with the unusual words scattered randomly in an early play and clustered in one role in a later play. On those occasions when Foster's test indicates that Shakespeare played two roles in a given play -Gaunt and a gardener in Richard II, for example - the characters are never onstage together." Using only the limited tools of word counting, the computer had solved a mystery that had eluded sentient, English-speaking scholars for centuries. The sterile number crunching powers of the PC could now tackle more rarefied, nuanced problems, problems that had as much to do with the meaning of language as with its statistical base. Once again, we see evidence that technology rarely advances along a steady You could have the computer monitor the length of each sentence; you could measure syntactical intricacy by tracking the 1 number of clauses separated off by commas, em dashes, colons, 8 and semicolons. Simply calculating the average letters-per-word would probably be enough to differentiate, say, The Cat in the Hat from Minima Moralia. A combination of all three might be sufficient to generate a useful complexity ranking for text documents.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 2 Re: UFO ROUNDUP Volume 4 Number 5 From: Georgina Bruni <georgina@easynet.co.uk> Date: Tue, 02 Feb 1999 03:23:09 +0000 Fwd Date: Tue, 02 Feb 1999 12:52:19 -0500 Subject: Re: UFO ROUNDUP Volume 4 Number 5 >Editor: Joseph Trainor >Masinaigan@aol.com >One question, boys--Did your friend Dr. Hawass mention even one >word about this "Tomb of Osiris?") Joseph You may be interested in this, part of an article I wrote for 'Sightings' magazine in 1997.... Apparently a tomb had been discovered in 1997. The last section may be especially interesting. I wonder if it is the same tomb..... what they did with all that treasure? No mention of it, was there? My source is a very credible person but he's nervous as hell about what he told me. Sorry, there's no way I can name him. The Sphinx Cover-up by Georgina Bruni August 1997 I was recently introduced to an Egyptian political correspondent for London, and during our conversation I casually brought up the subject of the Sphinx opening and asked if there was any news. Oh Boy was there news! Should the following information be true, then not only are Edgar Cayce's predictions correct, but the Egyptian government are involved in a massive cover-up. According to the journalist, the Egyptian government have ordered their press to keep their latest discoveries confidential. Their excuse for halting the archeological excavation is that they are renovating the monuments. Dr Joseph Schor who has connections with the Cayce Foundation, is supposed to be heading the expedition and I'm told they have made a number of amazing discoveries. Apparently the soil immediately inside the Sphinx is very soft, but just beyond it they found ancient records. Some have already been deciphered and tell the story of ATUM, the one who came from the skies, and of a civilisation from Atlantis, or Altea. Could they have found the information which may prove that the Atlanteans built the pyramids? My source says Yes! Edgar Cayce, the "Sleeping Prophet" is known for his prediction that the Hall of Records would be discovered in 1997-1998. My source also tells of another discovery. As they began tunnelling to the left of the paw which leads outside the Sphinx, they came upon a chamber which housed the treasures of an Egyptian queen. Coins, gold and statues were found, including one of a female body with the head of a lion. I wonder, are they going to tell the world of these discoveries? * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Georgina Bruni E-mail: georgina@easynet.co.uk E-mail: 104707.336@compuserve.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * HOT GOSSIP UK www.hotgossip.co.uk Celebrating three years on the internet Britain's first on-line Gossip Magazine * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * COMMENT FOR TODAY You are only as good as you think you are
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 2 Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net> Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 22:33:17 -0500 Fwd Date: Tue, 02 Feb 1999 13:30:54 -0500 Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 22:49:34 -0500 >From: Peter Brookesmith Mendoza <DarkSecretPB@compuserve.com> >Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Even that wicked nasty debunker, my good friend Phil >Klass, reserves his venom for abduction investigators, not >abductees. This is consistent with his position on UFO >investigators in general, as opposed to UFO witnesses in >general. Not so. He's scorned abductees as "little nobodies" who invent (or delude themselves with) abduction stories to get on TV. He and I had quite a riotous discussion about that. His initial view was what I've just stated, that all abductees want to tell their stories on television. This, of course, is not even remotely true, and I asked him where he'd gotten this notion. How many abductees did he know? "Only the ones I meet on TV shows," he replied, utterly unaware that he'd just pulled the rug, the floor, and the foundation of the house out from under his position. Greg Sandow
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 2 Re: Premature Birth & Abduction? From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net> Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 22:27:33 -0500 Fwd Date: Tue, 02 Feb 1999 13:25:36 -0500 Subject: Re: Premature Birth & Abduction? >From: Leanne Martin <leanne_martin@hotmail.com> >To: updates@globalserve.net >Subject: Premature Birth & Abduction? >Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 18:47:30 PST >Is any one aware of any statistical link between premature birth >and claimants of abduction? >Or perhaps even late and C-section births? >Do researchers even bother to look at issues like these when >interviewing an 'abductee'? Why should they? The C-section issue came up when Alvin Lawson suggested that alleged abduction memories were really memories of birth. One of the many arguments against him was that no abductees could have been born with C-sections. (The other one, of course, was that nobody has ever proved that anyone remembers being born.) But why are you asking your question? Greg Sandow
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 2 Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net> Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 22:50:10 -0500 Fwd Date: Tue, 02 Feb 1999 13:34:11 -0500 Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >>From: Rebecca Keith <xiannekei@yahoo.com> >>Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >>Bill, it would be a very significant area of research for >>someone who was skilled in picking apart the data. As the Duke >>mentioned in another response, a serious attempt was made to try >>to check this data out, but the suggestion was turned down by >>Budd. I don't believe other researchers were contacted, but I >>doubt the answer would be any different. I'm certainly not >>qualified to do that kind of research, but I do think it is a >>valid avenue of inquiry. I wish I'd commented on this earlier. And maybe I missed a post of Peter's that would shed some light on what Rebecca says here. But I was the intermediary between Peter and Budd while Peter was writing his book, and I'm not aware that Peter ever asked Budd for more information on the details we're talking about here. Budd and Peter had one uncomfortable face to face meeting (Budd was more uncomfortable than Peter was). But later on, Budd gave Peter full answers to every question Peter asked him through me. As far as I know, Peter didn't ask any other abduction investigators for these details. As I've mentioned in another post, I suggested Peter look into what we're talking about here -- the tiny unpublished details that, some abduction investigators claim, remain the same in many abduction accounts. But Peter didn't seem to think this was an important line of inquiry. Not, of course, that he's under any obligation to follow my advice. But if now we're going to breed some kind of myth that Peter sought this information and was rebuffed, I have to say that I don't think it's true. Greg Sandow
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 2 Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net> Date: Tue, 02 Feb 99 10:54:43 PST Fwd Date: Tue, 02 Feb 1999 13:55:49 -0500 Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 14:05:54 -0600 (CST) >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net> >Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net> >>Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >>Date: Mon, 01 Feb 99 12:41:36 PST Hi, Dennis, >>How many people in other traumatic situations -- combat, >>assault, rape, and the like -- volunteer the information that >>while being terrorized and traumatized they accidentally >>defecated or urinated? >Well, ask yourself howcome it's known that loss of bladder and >bowel control under traumatic circumstances is a fairly well >accepted given? Obviously, a lot of people have volunteered the >information over the years, or responded positively when asked >directly or indirectly. I doubt that such loss of control "is a fairy well accepted given." In fact, it is discussed so infrequently in accounts of violent or traumatic events (which, it ought to be noted, are far, far more frequent than abduction accounts) that coincidentally, a week or so before your posting, I had occasion to reflect on the question. I was writing a short story collection by Richard Currey, The Wars of Heaven, set in the West Virginia coal fields. In one story a character has a violent confrontation with a police officer, in the course of which one of the participants involuntarily defecates out of fear. This detail struck me for the simple reason that it is rarely mentioned in reports of violent and/or traumatic episodes. We may read of all kinds of appalling horrors inflicted on victims from assault to rape to murder, but we don't read much about loss of bowel and bladder control, though it surely occurs often. Absence of reference in abduction accounts -- relatively rare, as noted, next to other sorts of accounts of trauma and assault -- is hardly surprising, as I see it, for pretty much the same reason other, more conventional crime victims don't talk about it. It's a sort of ultimate humiliation. I agree with you, though: Getting abducted would scare the crap out of me. Jerry Clark
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 2 Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality From: Terry Blanton <commengr@bellsouth.net> Date: Tue, 02 Feb 1999 11:12:35 -0500 Fwd Date: Tue, 02 Feb 1999 14:05:59 -0500 Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 14:05:54 -0600 (CST) >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net> >Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality <snip> >I was simply curious as to why it seems to be conspicuous by its >absence in abduction accounts. I'd think being abducted would >scare the crap out of me! Involuntary evacuation from fear or trauma could be one explanation. Sphincter relaxation might also result from the alien-induced paralysis which many abductees report. Either way, I have not heard that evacuation was a common trait of abduction events. Interesting. Terry
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 2 Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com> Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 11:04:52 EST Fwd Date: Tue, 02 Feb 1999 14:09:22 -0500 Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >From: John W. Ratcliff <jratcliff@worldnet.att.net> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 23:12:01 -0600 >>From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com> >>Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 09:52:20 EST >>To: updates@globalserve.net >>Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >Kevin wrote about many problems with hypnosis <snipped>and then >continued with this commentary about memory: >>No, she would understand the difference in what is being >>discussed here. Psychologist Ulric Neisser had an opportunity to >>study "flashbulb" memories, those memories of important events >>like the Kennedy assassination or the Challenger explosion. He >>gave his freshman students a short questionnaire the day after >>the Challenger exploded asking about where they were when they >>heard, what they were doing. Three years later he gave those >>same students, now seniors, the same questionnaire with a >>single, additional question. How accurate to you believe your >>memories to be? According to the research, a quarter of the >>students had no memories that were accurate. In one case a >>student said he had been home with his parents when it was clear >>he was away from home at college. >>When confronted with the inaccuracy of these memories, the >>students argued with them, even though they had provided the >>original information within hours of the event. One student >>said, "I still remember everything happening the way I told you. >>I can't help it." She was defending the memories that were >>clearly an invention of her own mind about the event. >How ironic Kevin, I have never read a more effective debunking >of Roswell 'witness' testimony than your own words above. >John W. Ratcliff Please note that 75% of the students did have accurate memories as noted above. Also note that had the professor contacted the family of the student who believed that he had been home when the event was reported, there probably wouldn't have been corroborative detail. Yes, people believe their memories are accurate and that is why we seek additional witnesses to corroborate the stories and attempt to fit the individual pieces into a complex whole. My point is that when relying on eyewitness testimony, especially that which is years old, it is necessary to find corroboration. So, When Jesse Marcel, Sr., says that he was accompanied to the debris field by Sheridan Cavitt, we ask Cavitt about that. Cavitt tells us that it isn't true, so who do we believe? Marcel, because Cavitt, in his interview with Colonel Richard Weaver confirms that Marcel's memory was accurate. But this is a diversion from the nature of this thread (though the discussion of memory was a diversion as well). KRandle
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 2 Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality From: Brian Cuthbertson <brianc@freeside.fc.net> Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 10:38:48 -0600 (CST) Fwd Date: Tue, 02 Feb 1999 14:16:11 -0500 Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 14:05:54 -0600 (CST) >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net> >Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net> >>Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >>Date: Mon, 01 Feb 99 12:41:36 PST >It's a perfectly serious question. >>How many people in other traumatic situations -- combat, >>assault, rape, and the like -- volunteer the information that >>while being terrorized and traumatized they accidentally >>defecated or urinated? >>Jerry Clark >I was simply curious as to why it seems to be conspicuous by its >absence in abduction accounts. I'd think being abducted would >scare the crap out of me! One minor note on this. As I recall, one fairly consistent item in abduction reports is that abductees seldom remember actually entering a craft during an abduction. Instead, they tend to remember the initial abduction, and then memory jumps to being on a table or something like that. One of the books I read even had a name for this, the "missing door" syndrome or something similar. So, wild speculation here: maybe one of the things that happens during that unremembered entry period is that the subject reacts "appropriately" (as so well described above) and is cleaned up by his/her hosts. How thoughtful of them :-) Just a random thought. -Brian Cuthbertson
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 2 Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 03:51:15 -0500 Fwd Date: Tue, 02 Feb 1999 14:19:13 -0500 Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net> >Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >Date: Mon, 01 Feb 99 12:41:36 PST >>From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net> >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >>Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >>Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 23:30:54 -0500 >>>Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 23:01:28 -0600 (CST) >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >>>From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net> >>>Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >>>>As for "confirmatory items >>>previously unreported in the UFO literature" (my phrase, not >>>yours), I always wonder why we're not subjected to the real >>>nitty-gritty? That is, do many abductees report soiling their >>>underwear when they're abruptly lifted out of bed and >>>transported through a solid wall into a round spaceship, >>>whereupon they're rudely greyhandled by aliens and helpers in >>>blue uniforms? I think I would! Yet to the best of my knowledge, >>>I can't think of a single case in which a good crap in the pants >>>has come to light. Not prurient, just curious. Advanced as they >>>are, I feel sure that the aliens have come to grips with this >>>unexpected side-effect of their activities. Indeed, maybe this >>>explains the presence of the helpers in blue, after all. They're >>>there to clean up! >Dennis, >I don't know if this is a serious question, but I'll act as if >it were. Let me ask one in return: >How many people in other traumatic situations -- combat, >assault, rape, and the like -- volunteer the information that >while being terrorized and traumatized they accidentally >defecated or urinated? >Jerry Clark Gentlemen, Although this isn't the first time that Dennis has dragged a thread into the crapper, must we all dwell here? These abduction threads are the first in awhile to broach new areas of discussion. They are also the most 'civil' that we have had in a good long time too. So if you will please vacate this malodorous place we find ourselves in, we may be able to have a fruitful dialog for a change. Whadda ya say boys? <VBG> *Dennis: Why would something you have been interacting with since infancy make you soil yourself? Rhetorical question. Please do not respond. I would really like to see this one 'flushed' if you get my drift. <lol> John Velez, (Potty trained by humans and desensitized by aliens since childhood) ________________________________________________ jvif@spacelab.net INTRUDERS FOUNDATION/ABDUCTION INFORMATION CENTER http://www.if-aic.com "Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind." ________________________________________________
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 2 Re: FOIA on SOM 1-01 From: Jan Aldrich <jan@cyberzone.net ()> Date: Tue, 02 Feb 1999 13:18:45 -0800 Fwd Date: Tue, 02 Feb 1999 14:26:35 -0500 Subject: Re: FOIA on SOM 1-01 As indicated in the posting from Bill Hamilton and the original "Authentication II" on Joe Firmage's site, the owner and Top Secret Control Number of SOM 1-01 has been identified. Hamilton states the Special Operations Manual 1-01 indeed has a Top Secret Control number. The discussion in the Woods' "Authentication II" does not indicate they found a TS Control Number, however, they do indicate that the manual apparently is stamped Kirkland Air Force Base, New Mexico. If there is a TS Control Number and a stamp indicating that the document belonged to Kirkland AFB, NM, then you have an obvious FOIA. The obvious thing to do is FOIA Kirkland AFB using their TS Control Number. See references: On the 28th of January 1999, Bill Hamilton, the post that appears in the Skywatch Archives: http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/media/mailing/archive/skywatch/msg04645.shtml One of the objections raised was that the SOM1-01 manual had no document control number which is standard for Top Secret material. Dr. Wood contacted Don Berliner who had independently of Tim Cooper received a filmed copy of this document in the mail and had discovered that one frame had not been developed and printed. This frame, upon examination, contained the missing document control number. ------------------- In Authentication II, page 11, we find the information below: http://www.thewordistruth.org/narr_article.cfm?id=3D763&page=3D11 Where is the document control?" The answer to the first concern is that Bob Wood and Don Berliner found one frame that had not been initially reproduced because of the poor quality of the image -- and it turned out to be the required control page. See page i. It shows that there were pages that were replaced by the authority of MJ/01 and MJ/04 and the initials of the people who were doing it are fuzzy but identifiable. Looking at page i, and the facing page, it can be seen that this document came from Kirtland Air Force base. It shows the authority as MJ/01 or MJ/04. It lists the pages that were changed on the left, the date that the pages were changed, and the date and time and initials of the person who changed them, either an EWL or a JRT. We have gone through lists of officers of that time period and have identified all the EWLs and JRTs. We're homing in on him, on them, or her. It is not clear that it needs to be an officer -- could be a noncom or a civilian. -- Jan Aldrich
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 2 Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Breast Feeding Reality From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com> Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 13:34:17 EST Fwd Date: Tue, 02 Feb 1999 14:35:05 -0500 Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Breast Feeding Reality >Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 18:17:48 -0600 (CST) >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net> >Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net> >>Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >>Date: Mon, 01 Feb 99 12:41:36 PST >>Dennis, >>I don't know if this is a serious question, but I'll act as if >>it were. Let me ask one in return: >>How many people in other traumatic situations -- combat, >>assault, rape, and the like -- volunteer the information that >>while being terrorized and traumatized they accidentally >>defecated or urinated? >Jerry, >By way of an addendum to my previous post re the above: >Ironically, I stepped out of the shower this afternoon and >turned my attention to the TV, which was tuned to the NBC >national evening news, Tom Brokaw anchor. Cut to the first >commercial I saw -- about a product to combat "vaginal dryness." >I don't know whether to continue being a hip, 90s-type person, >or sink into some sort of postmodern sulk. I'm watching the NBC >national news and there's some woman on there talking about >vaginal dryness? >Get with it, dudes and dudesses. Welcome to the 90s. If you get >abducted and soil your shorts, it's politically correct to tell >your investigator (or hypnotist) about it. >In fact, curious minds like mine would like to know. In spite of the fact that I confessed at having soiled my underoos while (or after, can't recall) being shot at, the issue of "P&P" (Poop and Pee) never really arose until seeing it here on UpDates. Now, this has nothing to do with UpDates, but it is an interesting commentary on the state of our own curious minds. And Jerry, I just happen to know where you got that "curious minds" thingy above. It is, in fact, "Inquiring Minds' Want to Know," and it comes from the Supermarket Tabloids, you know, the one where the headlines are something like, "Phil Klass Confesses to be the Love Child of Alien Sex Goddess from Mongo!" Just what is a serious researcher like you reading those headlines for anyway? Cheeses man.... get a life already! But to get back to the point... we seem to have a marked proclivity and even more marked propensity toward the _really_ important issues here in beautifull, downtown UpDates, do we not? We talk about soiling our pants (or panties), about the origins of the words "flying saucers," about whether or not Hynek was an agent for the USGDCGIA (U.S. Gripple Dipple Con Gas Investigative Agency) and ad nauseum. And when we actually have an opportunity to speak in great detail, to people who have been there, done that, walked with the little mothers, talked with them, travelled with them, interacted with them.... etc., etc. we poo poo it to tears with crap like, "I hear tell that so-called abductions are the result of ... (here fill in the blanks) o breast feeding o the birth trauma... o shoe size o hollow moons from hollower minds o genital size.. which relates to shoe size, everybody knows that! o etc. Personally, as a guy, I prefer the breast feeding experience and I truly believe that it should be investigated in the _fullest_ possible manner. I volunteer! Jim
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 2 Gulf Sighting Report - U.S. Navy Witness From: Ben Field <ben@abcfield.force9.co.uk> Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 19:19:01 -0000 Fwd Date: Tue, 02 Feb 1999 15:22:48 -0500 Subject: Gulf Sighting Report - U.S. Navy Witness Dear list Follows is a report BUFOD has recently received, does anybody have any idea weather this could have been a spinning satellite? I have tracked the REMOTE_ADDR and it tracks to a us.mil domain so it is genuine! All the best Ben Field BUFOD: http://www.abcfield.force9.co.uk RPIT: http://www.abcfield.force9.co.uk/rpit/ ===REPORT=== First name: Xxxxx Surname: Xxxxx Age: 27 Occupation: U.S. Navy (active) Email address: (Received) Day sighting took place: Sunday Day (date): 24&25 Month sighting took place: January Year sighting took place: 1999 Time sighting took place: 1900 am/pm: PM Description of area where sighting took place: Myself, a shipmate, and one other under NVG's or Night Vision Goggles witnessed a light inside orion's star system. Map ref: Gulf of Aden Did anyone else witness the sighting?: Yes relationship of witness: Shipmates aboard ship relationship of witness 2 : same as first above Circumstances of the sighting/experience: We observed what appeared to be flashing lights in the Orion star system. When observed under NVG's the light was stationary and pulsing from bright to dim. There were no planes insight, but the satellites we saw were prodominantly moving. We are in the Gulf of Aden on a Western Pacific Deployment for the Navy. At about the same time we witnessed the occurence on the 24th and 25th of January 1999. I sent a message to the Chief Scientist, Dan Werthimer of SETI and his reply was, "it must be a plane or satellite spinning really fast. Those two were taken into consideration, but since my UFO detecting abilities are poor to yours, I don't really know what I saw. They at SETI also said that they were there to pick up communication. Maybe if this was a UFO, maybe they were trying to get our attention before that sent that one and only message to us. Just no one seems to want to believe that may have been the case. (Weather and Conditions) - Clear (Weather and Conditions) - Stars The UFO was sighted for Minutes: 20 Was any photographic record made at the time?: No The height the UFO was from the ground was about: in space permision to publish report: Yes
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 2 Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net> Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 14:04:38 -0500 Fwd Date: Tue, 02 Feb 1999 15:27:26 -0500 Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 16:49:33 -0500 >From: Peter Brookesmith Mendoza <DarkSecretPB@compuserve.com> >Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >As for Little Richard--well, I'm not going to get into the >history of rock'n'roll, but if you had the opportunity to >interview him you'd take it up, wouldn't you? And I'm sure you'd >expect your readers to have the urbanity to know that what he >might say wasn't part of some private musical agenda of your >own. Yes, but -- speaking now simply as a professional writer, without any reference to ufology -- I'd need to distance myself a bit, with humor, of course, from his comments, mostly to let uninformed readers know he wasn't speaking the whole scholarly truth. >However, if these details come out "in the same >order", they are not "random". Maybe they come out in the same >order because they make narrative sense, but then you may think >that idea is "truly loopy", ho hum. Nope. It's one of the first things to consider. Again we're back to Stuart Appelle's suggestion that we elicit stories from a control group of non-abductees, to see what narrative order they put things in. (So if Jacobs says B, C, and D always follow from A, we take non-abductees, and ask them to make up a story starting with A. If they, too, come up with B, C, and D, in that order, then we're dealing presumably with a phenomenon of narrative.) >Anyway, who are you to talk, we all know you are a KGB agent and >in Allen Hynek's pocket without knowing it. (As he did not, >either.) I've asked them for a raise. The pay is just terrible. Though, wait -- if Hynek was my "control", maybe that explains why I haven't seen a check for years! Greg Sandow
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 2 Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net> Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 14:05:38 -0500 Fwd Date: Tue, 02 Feb 1999 15:29:26 -0500 Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 16:49:29 -0500 >From: Peter Brookesmith Mendoza <DarkSecretPB@compuserve.com> >Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Thanks. Now who's going to do it? And is Dr Dave in the same >camp as Budd Hopkins, who won't release some of his info because >"the skeptics will jump all over it", and wouldn't let the >[MUFON?] Transcription Project see his files either? Dave has agreed to open his files to me.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 2 Re: Premature Birth & Abduction? From: Judith Dale <judithdale@earthlink.net> Date: Tue, 02 Feb 1999 12:13:34 -0800 Fwd Date: Tue, 02 Feb 1999 15:34:17 -0500 Subject: Re: Premature Birth & Abduction? >From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: Re: Premature Birth & Abduction? >Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 22:27:33 -0500 >>From: Leanne Martin <leanne_martin@hotmail.com> >>To: updates@globalserve.net >>Subject: Premature Birth & Abduction? >>Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 18:47:30 PST >>Is any one aware of any statistical link between premature >>birth and claimants of abduction? >>Or perhaps even late and C-section births? >>Do researchers even bother to look at issues like these when >>interviewing an 'abductee'? >Why should they? >The C-section issue came up when Alvin Lawson suggested that >alleged abduction memories were really memories of birth. One of >the many arguments against him was that no abductees could have >been born with C-sections. (The other one, of course, was that >nobody has ever proved that anyone remembers being born.) >But why are you asking your question? Hi Greg, Leanne, and all, This subject of birth memories being a potential source of alleged alien abduction memories, is an intriguing one. I have yet to come across any documented 'proof' of birth memories, but it is a topic that is rampant in the world of child birthing. Thus, we have advocates of low lights, soft voices, quiet music, and in some cases under water birth, during the time of a woman's labor and birthing of her child. The premise here, is that we do infact remember our birth, and those memories can be traumatic or pleasant, depending on the circumstances. At one point, during my long years of nursing, I did work in the field of childbirth. I can attest to the fact that babies born under optimal conditions, are quite alert and interactive with their environment. Indeed, there has been a mountain of research done to determine just how alert and aware newborns are. The data reveals that a healthy non drug affected newborn is very alert, interacting with, and learning from his/her environment from the moment of birth. Now, given that a newborn doesn't have any verbal constructs, or frame of reference for his/her experiences, any memories are laid down visually, tactilely, auditorily, and bio chemically within the neuronal structures of the brain. I don't think the problem is that we don't remember what happened when we were being born, so much as, no one really knows how to access those memories. Even older infants and very young children have memories that we have trouble accessing, simply because the memories are pre-verbal. I see this obstacle constantly in the work that I do now with disturbed adolescents. Many of them of histories of horrendous abuse in infancy and young childhood, yet cannot access these memories verbally. However, it is painfully clear to those of us working with these kids, that this abuse has left much evidence of trauma reflected in their behaviors and emotions. I don't think the issue of a birth being premature, or by C-section would make much difference. Oh my, there I go, being long winded again, sorry :-) My point here is that, I don't think we can throw out the possibility that birth memories may be driving a person's belief that they've been abducted, and subjected to painful, humiliating, and terrifying procedures. That may very well be a newborn's interpretation of birth events. On the other hand, it may be that we are seeing the result of a young child's pre-verbal memory of being abducted. Still and all, I don't think any of this negates the fact that folks are experiencing a phenomena that is beyond our everyday view of the mundane. What if, we stopped debating the reality and just began to operate from the premise that the phenomena of alien visitation, space flight, and abduction is quite real. Let's get down to brass tacks here. Why is it happening? What if anything, do we need to do to respond? Is it a threat to our well-being as humans? Although, I must say, I believe we are so much of a threat to ourselves, that an "alien" threat doesn't seem much worse to me. Judith Dale
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 2 Re: Apocalypse Pretty Soon From: Judith Dale <judithdale@earthlink.net> Date: Tue, 02 Feb 1999 12:27:02 -0800 Fwd Date: Tue, 02 Feb 1999 15:38:50 -0500 Subject: Re: Apocalypse Pretty Soon >Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 22:14:03 -0500 >From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com> >Subject: UFO UpDate: Re: Apocalypse Pretty Soon >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >I'm going to have to change the name of my UFO/FBI book to >something more attuned with the times, such as >'Almost Apocalypse' >or >'In Advance Of The Apocalypse' <snip> >'The Apocalypso - A Dance, Starring Hairy Banana' >etc. Bruce, I vote for 'The Apocalypso - A Dance....', very catchy :-), however, consumers might prefer, 'Suddenly Apocalyptic', much more dramatic sounding <g>. Judith Dale
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 2 Re: Apocalypse Pretty Soon From: Alfred Lehmberg <lehmberg@snowhill.com> Date: Tue, 02 Feb 1999 14:18:35 -0600 Fwd Date: Tue, 02 Feb 1999 15:48:20 -0500 Subject: Re: Apocalypse Pretty Soon >Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 22:14:03 -0500 >From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com> >Subject: UFO UpDate: Re: Apocalypse Pretty Soon >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >I'm going to have to change the name of my UFO/FBI book to >something more attuned with the times, such as >'Almost Apocalypse' >or <snip> >'The Apocalypso - A Dance, Starring Hairy Banana' "Ti-pocalypse" or "Apocalypse Park" have nice rings -- get Bob Newhart to play Dr. Maccabee in the film version... <g>. Lehmberg@snowhill.com -- Explore the Alien View! Ponder the Wit & Wisdom of Ching Chow! "Unstill Life" -- Animation ... and more. http://www.fortunecity.com/roswell/arecibo/46/ <Updated 30 January> John Ford Restoration Fund -- Send your checks and money orders to _me_, Alfred Lehmberg (cut out the lawyers, they got their's) at: 304 Melbourne Drive, Enterprise AL, 36330. Strict records kept. "Only thin, _very light_ envelopes with a return address will be accepted <g>." ~~~ $250.00 pledged -- $150.00 collected ~~~ "I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see from afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, while burning at the fundamentalist's stake.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 2 Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality From: Peter Brookesmith Mendoza <DarkSecretPB@compuserve.com> Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 15:33:56 -0500 Fwd Date: Tue, 02 Feb 1999 15:51:16 -0500 Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality With the compliments of the Duke of Mendoza: >Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 16:12:36 -0500 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> >Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality First, John, sorry I misconstrued the sequence of events in your "alien script" episode. However the brain here is more in Perkins diesel mode than RR supercharged Merlin, and I for one am not clear even now what you consciously remembered and what was recalled under hypnosis. I'd be delighted if you'd elaborate, and no doubt others would find the story intriguing too. Especially interesting would be to know what you were doing before the event, and whether there was a missing time episode... in other words, what you did and didn't consciously recall and how there was a gap that bore investigation under hypnosis. Oh, and did you keep, and do you still have, your original sketch of the glyphs from 1976, to compare with what you produced from the hypnotic session? John also remarked: >Again, all they served to do was to 'fill in' rather >(small) gaps in my original recollection. You and others >always make it sound as if the majority (if not the whole) >of our accounts are derived from hypnosis. It just isn't a >fair or accurate representation. Nor is that above! There are many, many cases of alleged abduction that are hypnotically "retrieved" on the basis of no more than a chunk of "missing time", for example. You've told me of two of your own experiences in which aliens figured only under hypnosis - 1979, 62nd St, and the motel-room "Castilian speakers" one. My account of the former makes plain the difference between what is consciously recalled and what's emerged from hypnosis. The usual figure bandied about is that one in three abduction accounts are offered from conscious recollection. I suspect this figure--or factoid--derives ultimately from Bullard's 1987 catalogue created for "Measure of a Mystery". I wager that a similar herculean labor today would find the proportion has shifted in favor of hypnotically acquired accounts--my dollar to your dollar, I'm a cheerful loser--and that the shift begins after 1988, post "Intruders" and post "Communion". Plainly hypnosis can't take _all_ the blame for abduction accounts, and I've absolutely never claimed it can. Indeed the real challenge to anyone who'd argue that abduction stories are not literally true is to explain the ones that are consciously recalled. Which is not an impossible task, if a large one. Nonetheless. When the most vocal, and certainly most widely-read, proponents of the reality of abduction--Hopkins, Mack, Jacobs, Sprinkle, B_y!?n, Fowler--_all_ use hypnosis freely, and claim that it's indispensible, and base their most celebratedly outlandish cases on it, and furthermore produce a lot of spurious logic and transparent sophistry to avoid dealing with the objection that its potential pitfalls far outweigh its potential merits, and furthermore _don't_ tell us sometimes highly salient facts about their subjects that would put the hypnotic material in a very different light than the one they shine on it, then they deserve all the kicking they get. Four of the above-named are demonstrably intellectually dishonest at worst and self-deceiving at best. If some clown now complains from their cave or wormhole that skeptics can be less than perfect too, that is as it may be; but it does not donate any integrity, objectivity or self-knowledge to the mountebanks. Rant over. Deep breath. John then went on to comment on my, er, Jungian notion--not--of symbols that arise in trance (-like) states: >Also, if this is >"common" or "archetypal" material, why isn't it present in the >"cultural/artistic" offerings available either in a gallery or >archaeology museum? If it was truly 'common' we'd all be >familiar with the glyphs from new or ancient drawings/art >produced by men and women who go out of their way sometimes to >find and reproduce (from within themselves) such material. The >conscious and the subconscious are the breeding grounds of art. >Yet I had never seen anything like this 'writing' before the >event in 1976. And, I'm pretty sure that (we) haven't discovered >-for the first time in human history- a set of "archetypal >symbols" that arte 'common' to all. Er--may I suggest more thorough research? Note, I did say trance or trance-like states, and I didn't have Jung's collective unconscious in mind - just common brain wiring. Not everyone is familiar with those states, and our society seems particularly averse to encouraging them. (Some would go from there to suggest that this lack of familiarity is one reason such experiences are now transmuted into abduction accounts, but I don't want to debate that here.) Other societies have been more generous toward their immanent dream-makers. The San people of the Kalahari ("Bushmen" to unreconstructed colonialists like me) are one instance that come to mind of people verifiably incorporating trance material into their art. There are others, lost to my memory off hand, and there is a mass of "archaeological" material that certainly bears a relation to those "alien glyphs" I've seen, and that very probably derives from trance material, given what we know about their producers' parallel interest in hallucinogens, etc. As I said, my idea is testable: you _very carefully_ hypnotize a control group and see what comes out. Personally I wish I had seen more samples of the "alien script" for myself, to judge just how similar they are. Even more interesting would be to discover that someone besides Hopkins had had subjects produce scripts just like those in his collection. It would be a cat among pigeons to find that e.g. Dr 8o!la_ also had a whole three dozen alien scripts all alike but totally dissimilar from the Hopkins Collection. Aaaaiiiieee! >Who >knows, one night while chasing the foals you may encounter >something which will defy explanation for you too. Well, I've always said they're welcome to come and try. No skin off my nose. And it would certainly add to my knowledge of the subject. I hope aliens don't annoy horses, though, or at least that they don't bruise easily! (And even more I hope that the damn' horse doesn't hoof me instead of them, sod it.) best wishes Pasternak D. Mushroom Third Eye
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 2 On Eyewitness Testimony From: Ed Stewart <ufoindex@jps.net> Date: Tue, 02 Feb 1999 12:11:18 -0800 Fwd Date: Tue, 02 Feb 1999 15:44:23 -0500 Subject: On Eyewitness Testimony [List Only] Is there a lesson here to be learned by ufologists? This article appeared on the Boston Globe, 02/01/99 and can be found at the web location: http://www.bosto.com/dailyglobe2/032/science/You_ll_never_believe_what_I_saw= _+.shtml Since the address is too long to fit on one line, I am reproducing the article here for those that may have difficulty accessing the site address give. NATURE JOURNAL You'll never believe what I saw! By Sy Montgomery, Globe Staff, 02/01/99 Maureen Clark was carving a ham on the morning before Christmas when her 16-year-old nephew, Rory Grant, glanced out the kitchen window and saw something really big moving in her back yard in Lincoln, N.H. "What IS that?" he asked. Some pretty impressive wildlife wanders through Clark's yard - coyotes, bears, and the week before last, a big bull moose. But she'd never seen anything like this: Grant estimated it was 24 inches high, 80 to 100 pounds, tawny with a long tail. It was about 35 feet away, partly obscured by a big rock. "We were mesmerized by it," said Clark, who is a photographer. "I was just thinking, Wow, there is a BIG cat out in my back yard!" She rushed to get her video camera, but by the time she got to the window, the animal had moved away into beech saplings and brush. For many hours over the course of several days, eight New Hampshire Fish and Game wildlife biologists viewed the three seconds of Clark's videotape showing the animal. Was it a mountain lion - an animal supposedly extinct in New Hampshire since the turn of the century? In some frames the tail looked striped, like a that of a house cat. In others, the ears seemed too pointy for a cat - more like those of a coyote. The verdict: "We can confidently say," states Fish and Game spokesman Eric Aldrich, "that it's inconclusive." "It's remarkable how difficult it is to tell what you're looking at out there," says Tom French at the Massachusetts Natural Heritage and Endangered Species program, part of the Division of Fisheries and Wildlife. An animal's color and shape can seem to change with back lighting or glare and can be obscured by branches and brush. Even if you get a clear look at an animal in an open field, it can be terribly hard to gauge its size. And without all this information, it's often impossible to tell for sure what you've seen - or to help others identify it for you. Even the experts are sometimes confused. About 10 years ago, Mark Pokras, an assistant professor of wildlife medicine at Tufts Veterinary Clinic, and wildlife biologists Bill Davis and Tom French were working on the bald eagle re-introduction project at the Quabbin Reservoir in Western Massachusetts one morning when a tawny flash streaked across the road yards in front of their jeep. Pokras recalls thinking, it's definitely a cougar. The biologists leapt from the vehicle to follow the animal. "So we're walking through the woods along the trail of mashed-down ferns and brush and climb the top of a rise," the biologist continued, "and there is standing - an immature coyote." It had a long thin tail, and was standing in the yellowish morning light. Then he looked at the tracks: They were too small to be a mountain lion's, only 1.5 inches across. And the tracks showed toenails, seldom seen in cat tracks but almost always a clue to a dog's. "I was mightily chagrined." In the woods, things are not always what they seem. Sometimes they are even stranger. Take for instance, the big bird of prey that birders kept reporting in a farmer's field in Middleborough last month. It turned out to be a caracara - a wide-winged fishing eagle native to the subtropics of Texas and Florida and tropical South America. No one knows how it got there. And the caracara is not the only tropical visitor to New England this winter. Two months ago, wildlife officials got a call about a porcupine struck by a car on Route 6A in Barnstable - an area where porcupines are not normally found. It turned out the injured animal was even further from its normal range than anyone thought: The veterinarian identified it as an African Crested porcupine. It had escaped from a zoo. Some "animal" sightings aren't animals at all. In a small Midwestern town several years ago, folks got so worried about a black bear they saw marooned on top of a telephone pole that townspeople eventually cut the pole down. Then they found they had rescued a black garbage bag. Many reports of exotic animals turn out to be cases of misidentification. If all the weird critter calls to wildlife officials were correct, you couldn't walk out of your house without tripping over wolves and wolverines, badgers and armadillos, and you'd need an umbrella to protect you from all the bald eagles falling from the sky. Wildlife agencies, veterinarians, and Audubon Society sites get these calls every day. "I call them `the animals that aren't,"' says Eric Orff, a wildlife biologist with New Hampshire Fish and Game Department. For 22 years, like his counterparts across the country, he has been fielding calls like these: "A 160-pound wolf is lurking at the edge of the woods!" Wolves were exterminated in New England a century ago. But even if they were to make a comeback - which biologists insist has not happened - there could not be enough to account for all the calls Orff gets reporting their presence - usually one a week. But there are plenty of coyotes - and dogs. "I have a bald eagle in my yard!" A Cape Cod woman who called Massachusetts Fisheries and Wildlife described the bird perfectly: It had a big white head, a big curved yellow beak, and a black body. But it also had webbed feet; it was actually a black-backed sea gull. Although eagles are returning to New England, often eagle sightings turn out to be other, more common birds of prey - a kestrel or hawk. But even these birds are often misidentified. One man reported finding an injured peregrine falcon and brought it to Tufts' veterinary clinic. It was a baby pigeon. "A bloodthirsty fisher is ripping the guts out of everything in the neighborhood." Fishers, sleek members of the weasel family, are seldom seen but often blamed for imagined, wanton destruction. Usually folks who call Orff about fishers didn't, as it turns out, actually see anything, but they heard something - often an eerie scream in the night (which might be a tomcat or a fox). When folks do see a fisher, which weighs about seven pounds, they sometimes report seeing a wolverine - a heavy-built, 70-pound carnivore that lives in the wilderness of northern Maine and out west. Such dramatic size exaggerations are not infrequent. Twenty-pound coyotes morph into 160-pound wolves, and 10-pound house cats grow into 100-pound mountain lions. Some of this has to do with perspective. "We are a lousy judge of distance," says Jim Hall, hunter education coordinator at New Hampshire Fish and Wildlife. But another reason that animals may appear larger than they are is that their wildness looms large in our imagination. And this can profoundly affect what we see. "Partly you see what's there," says Pokras, "and partly you see what you expect." Or want. Or fear. Supposedly seeing is believing, but the opposite is sometimes truer: sometimes we see what we believe. Philosophers and naturalists have known for centuries that we don't just see with our eyes. "The mind's eye is not passive," Amherst College physics professor Arthur Zajonc writes in his book "Catching the Light: The Entwined History of Light and Mind." The physician, statesman and poet Empedocles theorized that a sort of fire burned in the human eye like a lantern, and that sight was cast like a ray from the seer to the thing seen. Euclid, the great Alexandrian mathematician, believed this too, as did Plato. In a way, they were right. Belief in a "fire in the eye" was quenched by the mid-1900s, but psychologists still explore what Zajonc calls "the inner, psychological pole of sight." Investigations of hunting accidents reveal that, though rarely, sometimes people have honestly "seen" and fired at a buck - only to find they have shot a person. Psychologists call this phenomenon "premature closure" and "early blur": the seer glimpses an outline or a shadow and psychologically fills in the missing parts. After waiting in a blind for hours for a wild turkey to appear, the first big thing that moves may well look to the hunter's impatient eye like a wild turkey. (Hunter orange, notes Hall, works well because it interrupts premature closure, acting as a "circuit breaker.") Premature closure can turn a house cat into a mountain lion, a dog into a wolf, a sea gull into an eagle. How, then, can you ever find out what you've really seen out your window? Wildlife experts offer this advice: Note the important features of the creature: its color, shape of beak or ears or tail, color of fur or feathers. Photograph or videotape the animal if possible; if not, write down the description of what you see as you are looking at it. Try to gauge size by noting its height relative to a bush, tree, rock or stalk. If you videotape it, have someone videotape you at the site where the animal was standing for comparison. Look for tracks or scat the animal has left behind. Photograph or videotape these after putting a ruler in the picture. Protect the evidence beneath an overturned bucket until an expert can help you identify it. Call state fish and wildlife officials as soon as possible. Your sighting may be important. Your evidence could help document the existence or return of a rare species, or you might have discovered an escaped captive that needs your help. Everyone who has looked at Maureen Clark's videotape agrees she did everything right, but still, no one knows for sure what she saw. Sometimes mystery is the essence of nature. Keep looking out the window. You never know what you might see. Sy Montgomery is an author and naturalist who lives in New Hampshire. Nature Journal appears monthly in Health/Science. This story ran on page E01 of the Boston Globe on 02/01/99. =A9 Copyright 1999 Globe Newspaper Company.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 3 FOIA on SOM 1-01 From: Jan Aldrich <jan@cyberzone.net ()> Date: Tue, 02 Feb 1999 13:18:45 -0800 Fwd Date: Wed, 03 Feb 1999 12:45:44 -0500 Subject: FOIA on SOM 1-01 As indicated in the posting from Bill Hamilton and the original "Authentication II" on Joe Firmage's site, the owner and Top Secret Control Number of SOM 1-01 has been identified. Hamilton states the Special Operations Manual 1-01 indeed has a Top Secret Control number. The discussion in the Woods' "Authentication II" does not indicate they found a TS Control Number, however, they do indicate that the manual apparently is stamped Kirtland Air Force Base, New Mexico. If there is a TS Control Number and a stamp indicating that the document belonged to Kirkland AFB, NM, then you have an obvious FOIA. The obvious thing to do is FOIA Kirkland AFB using their TS Control Number. See references: On the 28th of January 1999, Bill Hamilton, the post that appears in the Skywatch Archives: http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/media/mailing/archive/skywatch/msg04645.shtml One of the objections raised was that the SOM1-01 manual had no document control number which is standard for Top Secret material. Dr. Wood contacted Don Berliner who had independently of Tim Cooper received a filmed copy of this document in the mail and had discovered that one frame had not been developed and printed. This frame, upon examination, contained the missing document control number. ------------------- In Authentication II, page 11, we find the information below: http://www.thewordistruth.org/narr_article.cfm?id=3D763&page=3D11 Where is the document control?" The answer to the first concern is that Bob Wood and Don Berliner found one frame that had not been initially reproduced because of the poor quality of the image -- and it turned out to be the required control page. See page i. It shows that there were pages that were replaced by the authority of MJ/01 and MJ/04 and the initials of the people who were doing it are fuzzy but identifiable. Looking at page i, and the facing page, it can be seen that this document came from Kirtland Air Force base. It shows the authority as MJ/01 or MJ/04. It lists the pages that were changed on the left, the date that the pages were changed, and the date and time and initials of the person who changed them, either an EWL or a JRT. We have gone through lists of officers of that time period and have identified all the EWLs and JRTs. We're homing in on him, on them, or her. It is not clear that it needs to be an officer -- could be a noncom or a civilian. -- Jan Aldrich
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 3 Re: 25 Rules of Disinformation From: Gary <galevy@pipeline.com> Date: Tue, 02 Feb 1999 23:13:55 -0500 Fwd Date: Wed, 03 Feb 1999 12:54:21 -0500 Subject: Re: 25 Rules of Disinformation >From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: Re: 25 Rules of Disinformation >Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 00:55:51 -0500 >>From: UFO UpDates - Toronto [mailto:updates@globalserve.net] >>Sent: Monday, January 18, 1999 11:14 AM >>To: UFO UpDates Subscribers :; >>Subject: UFO UpDate: Re: 25 Rules of Disinformation <snip> >As for the rest of Gary's comments, in my "sophomoric" (his >word) way I actually smoked out a tangible -- hard to believe, >but there it was! -- reason why he believes poor dead J. Allen >Hynek was an intelligence agent. Hynek once asked some fellow >astronomers what they thought about UFOs, and passed the >information on to the Air Force, for whom he was serving as >consultant! The always amusing Greg just can't just let anything pass on Dr. Hynek, can he? He has never let the his failure to address any of the questions I have raised about Hynek discourage him from raising a lame defense of Dr. Hynek. But you've got to give the guy credit for honesty. After repeatedly failing to produce anything that would remotely persuade any reasonable observer that Hynek was not an agent, he continues as Hynek's apologist. Unfortunately this apologetic approach does violence to the facts of the matter. Greg doesn't discuss Hynek's "Special Report" because to do so would reveal the critical facts he has overlooked. The facts here are: -- J. Allen Hynek is dead, but this is not really news. -- And Hynek was hardly "poor," figure of speech or no. He collected a salary from his university, the Air Force (publicly as a consultant) AND another from a cut-out operation, through a McGraw Hill subsidiary (this is documented by Jacques Vallee in Forbidden Science). Cut-outs are a common but not widely or publicly known method of paying personnel working for intelligence agencies. As for looking for checks documenting that Hynek was paid by some agency, don't send anyone on that goose chase, Greg. Thornton Page is already on record as noting that the CIA issued garden-variety U.S. Government checks to pay the Robertson Panel "scientists." There are no souvenirs to be found. -- Hynek didn't just "ask some fellow astronomers what they thought about UFOs and passed the information on to the Air Force." This is a flat misrepresentation, Greg, as we will soon see. The reality is Hynek filed a seventeen (17) page (paperback pages) written, self-described "Special Report" under his name for the Air Force's intelligence agency, ATIC, which employed him. By definition this is what intelligence agents do. Below are a few Camp Peary definitions of intelligence agents. Let's see how well Hynek fits: AGENT - 1) A person tasked with obtaining information to which they have access under the rubric of their normal, day-to-day routine. Such an agent is said to have "cover" for his intelligence activities. AGENT - 2) A person under the full-time or partial control of an intelligence agency or security service. AGENT (OF INFLUENCE) -- An agent so well placed within a target group that he can impact that group's activities in directions desired by an intelligence service. Can a good case be made for all three of the above definitions having application to Dr. Hynek vis-a-vis the UFO? Well, yes. Hynek's "Special Report" includes a table in which he rated all those astronomers he had interviewed for their quality as observers and as professional astronomers. His report was born as a classified document and remained so for many years. And Hynek didn't just "speak to some astronomers." He interviewed forty-five astronomers (45) and traveled to eight (8) observatories and spent three (3) days at a conference interviewing many of them. He doesn't specify how long it took him to visit those eight observatories for this purpose but let's for argument sake say he took one day at each observatory and a day and a half in travel time for each of the observatory visits. Including the conference that is fifteen (15) days. Who arranged his leave from his academic obligations, who paid his expenses, etc. That's a pretty serious commitment of time and money for some casual conversation. In addition, Hynek had to have spent a lot of time after the conversations (provided he wasn't using a recording device to capture the conversations) in order to compile his interviews and write his report. Some casual conversation! Right on Greg! We are not all as gullible as you would like us to be. As Hynek himself points out in the report, he interviewed most of the astronomers covertly, so that they "were not aware that anything more than a personal private talk between astronomers was going on." In other words Hynek betrayed their trust in him. They were led to believe it was a personal conversation when it wasn't. The fact is that his colleagues were speaking to a man who was working as an informant, one duly authorized and paid by one of our military intelligence agencies. The purpose of historical accuracy is not served by the way you and others misrepresent Hynek's role as an intelligence agent for the Air Force. Did Hynek do any science at all while he worked for the Air Force? Who knows? We DO know that NOTHING of that sort has ever been made public! When you consider what Dr. McDonald said about the Air Force and Hynek it is obvious -- everything they were doing was actually security related and had nothing to do with "science" at all -- just like the "investigation" conducted by Dr. Howard Robertson for the CIA! That is, it was all, _all_, part of a domestic security program. Greg, what do YOU get out of misrepresenting what Hynek did on the public record? Whatever that is eludes me. >The wonderful thing about this incident is that it's very well >known. This incident is "well known"? By whom, the average member of CUFOS who sends in his dues every year and gets the _ International UFO Reporter (IUR) _? I doubt the hell out of that! As for this list, how would any reader here have EVER found out if I had not brought it up, hmm? You and others on this list are working overtime to eliminate any references to certain less fashionable aspects of ufology past, especially of the kind represented here. By the time you folks get through with the 1950s your readers will be completely in the dark about many of the most important considerations driving the principal players of the time. Maybe that's the idea, huh? Writing a history of the UFO without including detailed discussion and analysis of the involvement of the intelligence community, their personnel and activities is "like building a house without a blueprint: The angles go awry, the foundation tilts." >For years, in other words, the UFO community has known >about this little deception on Hynek's part, and not drawn >conclusions from it. And I say to this, "Wow, can it get any worse!" It's like the old John Brunner novel, _The Sheep Look Up_, except the ufologists, sheep to the last man, never do! >Silly us, perhaps. Maybe we thought the >deception didn't amount to much, didn't involve any serious >breach of confidence, and didn't provide any damaging >information -- as, let's say, reporting to the Air Force >and the CIA on the state of CUFOS's finances might have, >later in Hynek's life. Great joke, Greg. Did CUFOS ever have an endowment or full-time staff that the Air Force would be concerned about? CUFOS could well have been a classical filtering operation and right at the bottom of its funnel was the chief-agent/collector-of-information: Hynek. It is rarely necessary to "infiltrate" an organization that has been founded and is currently staffed by many of your own people, who are regularly providing reports. NICAP, on the other hand, was in the 1950s an organization of dissent to the policies of what Keyhoe termed the "silence groups." And NICAP had a broad base of professional support, a staff and a political agenda! Sure, NICAP was collecting reports, but that was just the beginning for them! They took in the reports so they could DO SOMETHING with them, not just pile them up ad infinitum! And what happened to NICAP? Well, it was infiltrated and subverted from within, a series of events that has never been the subject of "mainstream" ufological researchers, who prefer to ignore this particular elephant in the living room. >Who among us has not, once or twice, gone on a >similar "mission" for somebody we know? "God, I've got >such a crush on Marjorie," our friend might tell us. >"You know lots of her friends. Would you kind of talk >to them, ask them a few questions, try to find out if >Margie likes me? Don't say I asked you to!" That you can trivialize Hynek's "Special Report" by comparing it to an everyday social situation says more about you and your approach to ufology than any "Dark Conspiracist" could dare hope to do. That is, as long as the deceptions are "little" and don't amount to much or don't involve a "serious" breach of confidence or provide "damaging" information (all of this defined by YOU) then Hynek's spying is A-OK with Greg! Well, isn't that a fine commentary on someone's values! With the values you espouse, your academic credentials, work experience as a journalist, and visibility in the ufo field you might wish to be more sensitive to the appearance this creates. CSPAN has an excellent program on the issue of the relationship of journalists and the intelligence community in which several former agency directors discuss their interaction with present and former journalists. Pointed out in the program was that journalists have been one of the most common covers utilized by the intelligence community. The program is a kind of folksy meeting/dialogue that was taped in a Washington, D.C. restaurant, I believe the meeting was held in 1998, the program is ocassionally rerun late at night, it's informative. >Gary has been telling us for quite a while that Hynek was >involved in dirty intelligence stuff, and that he has evidence >to show that, although he won't share any of it. Now he opens >the door just a crack to the secret room where, apparently, he >stashes his evidence, and....lo! It's something everyone knew >all along! Something Hynek freely talked about! Gary, of >course, reads far more into it than anybody else ever >did....but wait, I forgot: He has all that OTHER evidence. This is an important issue, the "dirtiness" of domestic security operations. As readers of James Bamford's The Puzzle Palace know, domestic spying by the National Security Agency was THE deepest secret in the inventory as Watergate broke twenty-five years ago. Then, in 1974, when that information threatened to come under Congressional scrutiny, the lid was slammed down, just as it had been in 1961 when it looked like the UFO might get serious Congressional attention. The Congress is simply no match at all for the backroom boys when the going gets really, really tough. The problem was stated by Hynek himself, quoted by Vallee in Forbidden Science, saying that any secret investigation of the UFO would have been "against the constitution." Now, Hynek was no political scientist but he was onto something, something that applied to himself, since he WAS, without a doubt, part and parcel of a secret UFO investigation! The problem is that a political republic cannot function if there exists a de-facto "secret police" with a huge budget and its agents everywhere, a situation that turned out to be true for the Cold War years! Why is the U.S. public hooked on "conspiracy theories?" Could it be that some of them read the newspapers and simply know some facts that are conveniently ignored by some on this list? What does it mean when Greg and others on this list systematically rewrite history, leaving out nearly all mentions of the issues under discussion here? Are they providing Dr. Hynek with ex-post-facto cover for his activities? It could very well be. Greg, you say that the report was, "Something Hynek freely talked about!" Are you saying that Hynek freely talked about the report when it was still classified? I doubt that. What you ARE trying to do is trivialize the fact that Hynek, who was a loyal, paid agent, kept security all the while it was necessary and soft-pedaled what he had done WHEN it became known. And has a lot of help now, beyond the grave. Gee, I'm so surprised. Before I forget Greg, bravo for unmasking of your local agency representatives. Do you think that my local "company" office would be set up near me, on a main thoroughfare with lots of cars with government issue licenseplates out in front? Does that fit your script? You know when I asked the guys coming out of that unmarked office they said they were FBI -- did they lie to me? >And, of course, he's always right. Just ask him. >Greg Sandow How curious that you should make a claim of infallability on my behalf. I am not worthy. It does however say much that you have put those words in my mouth. Gary Alevy Below is Hynek's "Special Report" in its entirety, the table has been narrowed to fit posting requirements --------------------------------------- Special Report on Conferences with Astronomers on Unidentified Aerial Objects to Air Technical Intelligence Center Wright-Patterson Air Force Base by J. Allen Hynek August 6, 1952 This special report was prepared to describe the results of a series of conferences with astronomers during and following a meeting of the American Astronomical Society in Victoria, H. C., in June, 1952. It recounts personal opinions of a large number of professionally trained astronomical observers regarding unidentified aerial objects. In addition, it reports sightings by five professional astronomers that were not explainable by them. Representing the opinions of highly trained scientists, these comments should prove particularly helpful in assessing the present status of our knowledge of unknown objects in the skies. Purpose of Interviews The desirability has been established of inquiring of professionally trained astronomers of considerable scientific background as to whether they had ever made sightings of unidentified aerial objects. At the same time, it is felt that it would be profitable to obtain the informal opinions and advice of high-ranking astronomers on the entire subject of unidentified aerial objects, of the manner in which the investigation of these objects was being conducted by the Air Force, and of their own inner feelings about the possibility that such objects were real and might constitute either a threat to national security or new natural phenomena worthy of scientific investigation. Accordingly it was planned that a tour would be made of several of the nation's observatories, not in the guise of an official investigator, but rather as an astronomer traveling about to discuss scientific problems. It was felt that this mild deception was necessary, that an artificial barrier to communication might not be set up which would invalidate the assumption that truly representative opinions were being obtained. Therefore, to maintain good faith, the names of the astronomers interviewed are withheld from this report. In all, 45 astronomers were interviewed, nearly always individually except in a few cases where this was impossible. Eight observatories were visited and the National Meeting of the American Astronomical Society in Victoria, British Columbia, was attended on June 25 to June 28. Because of the confidential and highly personal manner in which the interviews quoted below were made, and to keep faith with the many astronomers interviewed, who, generally, were not aware that anything more than a personal private talk between astronomers was going on, the names of the astronomers will be withheld. They will be assigned letters, but the code will not be included in this report. Table I gives an informal evaluation of each astronomer as an observer, and, for some, their rating as a professional astronomer. These ratings are based on my own personal opinion; they do not represent any fixed levels of achievement in the general field of astronomy. TABLE 1. INFORMAL EVALUATION OF ASTRONOMERS PROVIDING DATA FOR THIS REPORT Rating Rating as; a as an professional Astronomer observer astronomer A 3 - B 1 - C 3 - D 2 - E 3 - F 3 - G 1 - H 2 - I 1 - J 1 K - - L 1 - M 1 - N 3 1 O 2 3 P 3 3 Q 1 1 R 1 - S 2 - T - - U 1 - V 3 2 W 3 - X 3 1 Y 1 - Z - - AA - - BB - - CC - - DD 1 1 EE 1 - FF - - GG 1 1 HH 2 1 II 2 2 JJ - - KK 1 - LL - - MM 2 - NN - - OO - - PP - - Key to ratings: 1. Excellent 2. Above average 3. Average Interviews with Astronomers There follows a simple narrative of the interviews, after which the opinions and advice of the astronomers will be summarized. Astronomer A has never made any sightings and knows of none in his immediate acquaintance who have. Astronomer B has made sightings of things which people would call "flying saucers" but hasn't seen anything that he couldn't explain. He has seen birds at night flying in formation illuminated by city lights, but probably not bright enough to have been photographed because they were traveling "pretty fast." Astronomer B wonders if some of the sightings are not due to Navy secret weapons, since only the Navy has officially said nothing about flying saucers. Astronomer B was quite outspoken and feels that past methods of handling the subject have been "stupid." He feels pilots should not be bushed up, and that secrecy only whets the public appetite. Astronomer C has made no sightings, and is quite reluctant to discuss the subject. It is evident that he regards it as a fairly silly proceeding and subject. Difficult to bring the conversation around to the subject. Astronomer D has made no such sightings and does not know any associate who has. He is fairly sympathetic in the matter and appears open minded on the subject. Astronomer E has made no sightings, but heard the great Seattle meteorite of May 11 at 1:30 a.m, Apparently, he is not much interested in the subject. Astronomer F, from England, has made no sightings but tells of the reports of unidentified objects in England. Astronomer G has made no sightings, nor have his associates. Reasonably interested in talking about the subject, be clearly does not consider it a topic of any real importance as compared with the problems he is interested in at the moment. Astronomer H has been associated with systematic meteor observation, but not for any great length of time. He has made no sightings nor have his associates. His meteor cameras have not picked up any objects. Astronomer I has made no sightings and it was rather difficult to get him to talk about the subject at all. Clearly he does not regard it as a problem of importance., Astronomer J, who has had long experience at a meteor observatory, has made no sightings but clearly is very interested in the problem. He has promised cooperation should any items come to big attention. He is very much interested in seeing this problem cleared Up. His professional rating is excellent. Astronomer L has made no sightings nor, as far as De knows, have any of his associates. Astronomer M has made no sightings. Politely interested, but he clearly does not regard it as a major problem. Astronomer N, with an excellent professional rating, has made no sightings nor does he know of any associates who have. He said that astronomer Whipple thinks the green fireballs observed in New Mexico are small asteroids, whereas the ordinary meteors are cometary fragments. There is a further discussion of this point later with reference to La Paz. Astronomer 0, whose professional rating is only moderate, has seen none. Astronomer P, whose professional rating also is only moderate, has seen none and does not consider the problem very important.* [*The professional ratings given here show that "sightings" and interest in the problem do not run inversely proportional to the professional rating of the astronomer.] Astronomer Q. with an excellent professional rating, has seen no unidentified objects but says that reports come in occasionally from the Fraser River Valley northeast of Vancouver. Apparently these sightings have been concerned with lights similar to the Lubbock lights. Astronomer R has personally sighted an unidentified object, a light which loomed across his range of vision, which was obstructed by an observatory dome, much faster than a plane and much slower than a meteor. If it had been a plane, then its rapid motion could be accounted for only by closeness, but since no motors were heard, this explanation was essentially ruled out. Light was steadier than that of a meteor and was observed for about three seconds. Astronomer R does not ascribe any particular significance to this sighting, except as it constitutes one of the many incomplete and unexplained sightings. Astronomer R was not reluctant to talk about the subject of flying saucers and pointed out that we must not fall into the error of believing that we understand all physical phenomena. As late as the year 1800, it was thought impossible that meteorites, "stones from heaven," could fall from the sky. There is no reason to believe that a century and a half later all the physical phenomena that exist have been discovered. Astronomer R is, however, violently opposed to the sensational approach to this problem. He points out that many scientists, or at least some scientists, have approached these sightings for the sake of personal glory and publicity but not for the benefit of the country. He is also opposed to magazines such as Life setting themselves up as scientific arbiters and passing scientific judgment on sightings; when not qualified to do so. In short, Astronomer R believes this subject is serious enough to be considered as a scientific problem, and that it should be taken entirely out of the sensational realm. He believes, for instance, that a group of serious scientists should aim to help investigators by starting with a thoroughgoing investigation of the "Lubbock lights." This, investigation would comprise not only a rehash of previous sightings, but an intelligent cooperative effort to examine the world of physical phenomena and to see which of those, and which scientific or physical principles, might conceivably have led to these observations. He feels that the Lubbock incident is a particularly propitious one to start with since the observations were made by reliable observers in a scientific atmosphere, and that, therefore, these qualified observers could discuss with other scientists their sightings in a dispassionate manner. Astronomer R turned over the record of his sighting made at the instant of the sighting, for whatever use it may be. He is interested in the problem and eminently cooperative. Astronomer S has seen none and is not particularly interested in the problem. Astronomer T has personally seen nothing, but recounted the incident at Selfridge Field which occurred early in June, 1952, in which a group of fliers from Selfridge Field was sent out to attack a target over Lake Erie. As they were approaching the target, the shore observers radioed "Why don't you shoot? You are already in the target." This apparently is another example of the fairly frequent radar "sightings." Astronomer U, Hugh Pruett, who does not mind having his name used, is Northwest Regional Director of the American Meteor Society. Although getting on in years, be has bad a great deal of experience with meteor observation. He evinced considerable interest and cooperation in the problem, and I took the liberty of asking him to cooperate with this endeavor in tracking down meteor sightings which might be associated with reports on flying saucers. He is well acquainted with all the officers and members of the American Meteor Society, and he could provide considerable help hi assembling a panel of consulting astronomers. Pruett plotted the flight of the great Seattle meteor from hundreds of reports. He is an avid "tracker-downer" of such things, and he can be of considerable assistance in these matters. He himself has not made any unexplained sightings. I checked my knowledge of meteors with him and corroborated. the points that there are many meteors that are green, that some drop vertically, that some wobble, some have noise associated with them, and some have been seen as long as 25 seconds. There is one record in the literature of a meteor that lasted 50 seconds, but this seems hardly possible. Pruett, although he observed no objects, did bear a very loud noise above the clouds early one morning, which he does not believe was aircraft. He asked the local radio station to help; his phone was busy for four hours. There is no question that the noise existed, but no one saw anything. Astronomer V has made no sightings. He was so interested in speaking of his own troubles that it was impossible to bring the conversation around to scientific problems. His professional rating is only intermediate. Astronomer W was difficult to interest in the subject and did not admit to having seen anything. Astronomer X, with a high professional rating, has made no sightings and exhibits an extremely negative attitude toward the whole problem. He feels that all sightings except the green fireballs are merely misrepresentations of familiar objects, and he has no patience with the subject. He believes that La Paz should have enough data to get the heights of the green fireballs, and therefore settle the question. La Paz, when questioned later, said he did have sufficient observations and the objects were eight to ten miles high. Astronomer R, who happened to be present when Astronomer X was "sounding off," again reiterated that it would be a good idea for some astronomer to take a reasonable attitude toward this problem, and that we will get no place by merely pooh-poohing it. Astronomer Y has made no sightings but has stated, "If I saw one, I wouldn't say anything about it." This statement led the conversation into the question of what conditions would have to be met before he would report it. The answer from him was the same as from several other astronomers, that if they were promised complete anonymity and if they could report their sightings to a group of serious respected scientists who would regard the problem as a scientific one, then they would be willing to cooperate to the very fullest extent. Astronomer Y suggested that an article be written in some astronomical journal informing the astronomical world that a reliable clearing house for such information exists,* Astronomer Y, and others, were of the strong opinion that the astronomical world should be informed through reliable channels as to what the Air Force is doing in tracking down these stories, and what is being done to put the investigation of such incidents on a scientific basis. [*The writer does riot agree with this as it would almost immediately fall into the hands of the press and the ensuing publicity would be a strong deterrent to the receipt of reports.] Astronomer Z, from Germany, has sighted none himself but tells that flying saucer reports also exist in Germany, but he believes that many may have been introduced by the Occupation Forces. He reports that rumors are frequent that the flying saucers might be from Mars, but that these reports are taken by the intelligent simply as American propaganda to cover up the existence of secret weapons. Or, they say, if not the Americans, then the Soviets. Astronomer AA, from England, has made no sight-ings himself. He tells that such sightings are talked about in England, however. The only specific case he knows anything about is that of the falling ice which killed the sheep. These very handy "flying saucers" served a very good purpose in getting around meat rationing because when the sheep was killed, obviously for table use, the blame was put to falling ice. The stories ended when a chemical examination of the only authentic case of such a fall showed the ice to have uric acid in it. This led to a change in the on routines aboard the BOAC planes! Astronomer BB has made no sightings personally, but informed the writer that he would talk to a reputable committee of scientists if he did see anything. Astronomer CC has made no sightings himself although he has been in a very good position to do so. He was reluctant to discuss the matter to any extent Astronomer DD, with a top professional rating, has seen nothing personally, nor does he know of any of his associates who have. Interested in the problem, he feels that a scientific panel could provide the answer. Astronomer has never seen any unexplainable objects. He has seen a phenomenon which most people would have said was a "flying saucer." This turned out to be a beacon light describing a cone of light, part of which intercepted a high cirrus cloud. This led to a series of elliptical lights moving in one direction and never coining back. Astronomer FF has seen none himself, but recently received a report from a ranger who said be was an amateur astronomer; he reported a bright light but said that it was not a meteor. Astronomer FF said his recitation of the incident was very dramatic. Astronomer FF suggested sending up a control "flying saucer" to see how many reports come back. Apparently he had in mind an extremely bright rocket or perhaps a spectacular balloon.* [*Again, I do not think much of this astronomer's suggestion. It would serve to ten us how many people will report an unusual incident, which number can be compared with the number of people who report a typical sighting; if the numbers agree then this would be some proof that an actual object had been sighted in the latter cases. The confusion that would be created by this maneuver is hardly worth the while. Recently, the balloon sighting over Columbus gives us, in effect, the same results that Astronomer FF suggested. Certainly in this case hundreds, if not thousands or more people saw the balloons which, incidentally, were not spectacularly bright and could easily have escaped detection. It is interesting to note that the public at large is becoming more aware of things which might pass for flying saucers and are becoming less gullible and trigger happy. The quality Of reports should be going up, and it seems that greater degree of credence can be given to sightings reported by a group of people in each case. It is becoming less likely that any large group of people will be fooled by ordinary or even unusual aircraft, balloons, or meteors. This was not the case before the turn of the half century,] Astronomer GG, with an excellent professional standing, and cooperative and highly respected, has made no sightings personally. He concurs with others that a committee of scientists to approach the problem of flying saucers would be a good idea. Astronomer GG had the suggestion that St. Elmo's fire should be induced artificially to see if this is one of the causes of the numerous sightings of lights by pilots. Astronomer HH, whose professional rating is excellent, has made no sightings personally. He agreed that the conditions under which he would talk would be complete anonymity in reporting to a committee or even to one reputable astronomer in whom he had fall confidence. Astronomer II, with an adequate professional rating, has made two sightings personally. The sightings were two years apart The first sighting, which was witnessed also by an astronomer not interviewed on this trip, occurred in this manner: A transport plane travelling west made quite a bit of noise and Astronomer II looked up to watch it. He then noticed, above the transport and going north, a cluster of five ball-bearing-like objects. They moved rapidly and were not in sight very long. Two years after this sighting, he sighted a single such object which disappeared from sight by accelerating, probably by turning but not by going up quickly. Astronomer II is willing to cooperate but does not wish to have notoriety. Nevertheless, he would furnish further details, and Observer's Questionnaires should be sent to him. Astronomer JJ has made no sightings himself, but agrees on the policy of reporting to a duly constituted panel if he should see any. Astronomer KK has made no sightings and was not particularly interested in the problem. Astronomer LL, Dr. La Paz, has already had so much publicity in Life magazine that there appears to be no reason for keeping his name secret. lie is the Director of the Institute of Meteoritics at the University of New Mexico, and is cooperative in the extreme. One sighting of his has been described in Life magazine and also fully in OSI reports. He has made extensive reports about the green fireball sightings in New Mexico in OSI reports also. The discussion of green fireballs with many astronomers disclosed that most of them were of the opinion that these were natural objects. However, close questioning revealed that they knew nothing of the actual sightings of their frequency or anything much about them, and therefore cannot be taken seriously. This is characteristic of scientists in general when speaking about subjects which are not in their own immediate field of concern. Dr. La Paz has seen only one green fireball himself, but has been avid in collecting reports on the others. Because his full reports are in the OSI files, only the salient points will be discussed here. It appears that the green fireballs can be characterized by being extremely bright, most of them lighting up the daytime, estimated magnitude -12, which is extremely bright. They appear to come in bunches and at one time 10 were observed in 13 days. No noise is associated with them despite their brightness. The light appears to be homogeneous, and their light curve resembles a square wave, that is, it comes on abruptly, remains constant while burning, and goes out exceedingly abruptly, as though it is snapped out by a push-button. They leave no trails or trains. As to their color, La Paz is aware of the fact that other meteors have a green color, but he insists that this is a different green, corresponding to the green line in the copper spectrum (5218 Angstrom units). These objects generally move in a preferential north-south, south-north direction. If these data are correct, that is, if this many objects actually were seen, all extremely bright, all having this particular green color, all exhibiting no noise, all showing a preferential direction, all being homogeneous in light intensity, all snapping out very quickly, and all leaving no trails, then we can say with assurance that these were not astronomical objects. In the first place, any object as bright as this should have been reported from all over the world. This does not mean that any one object could have been seen all over the world, but if the earth in its orbit encountered, for some strange reason, a group of very large meteors, there is no reason that they should all show up in New Mexico. Besides, copper is not a plentiful element in meteors, and the typical fireball goes from dim to bright to very bright to bright and then fades out fairly fast, often breaking into many parts. They frequently leave a trail of smoke in the daytime and of luminescence at night. It is recommended that the OSI reports be obtained, and that the sightings of these fireballs be examined in detail. If the data as reported by La Paz are correct, then we do have a strange phenomena here indeed. Astronomer MM has not seen any. He happened to be with me, however, while I interviewed some laymen who bad seen some aluminum-colored discs. He was most impressed by the consistency of their stories. Astronomer NN is Clyde Tombaugh, who has already been identified in the Life article. He has made two sightings, the first of which is the one reported in Life magazine and the second was reported to me. The details can be obtained by sending him a questionnaire, as he is Willing to cooperate. Briefly, while at Telescope No. 3 at White Sands, be observed an ob-ject of -6 magnitude (four times brighter than the planet Venus at its brightest) travelling from the zenith to the southern horizon in about three seconds. The object executed the same maneuvers as the nighttime luminous object which was reported in Life magazine. No sound was associated with either of the sightings. Mr. Tombaugh is in charge of optics design and rocket tracking at White Sands Proving Ground. He said that if he is requested officially, which can be done by a letter to the Commanding General, Flight Determination Laboratory, White Sands Proving Ground, Las Cruces, New Mexico he will be able to put his telescopes at White Sands at the disposal of the Air Force. He can have observers alerted and ready to take photographs should some object appear. I strongly recommend that this letter be sent. Astronomer OO is a meteor observer at the Harvard meteor Station in New Mexico. Although relatively new on the job, he observed two lights while on watch at 1:30 a.m. that moved much too fast for a plane and much too slow for a meteor. The two lights were white and moved in a parallel direction. it is recommended that an Observer's Questionnaire be sent to this observer, as his sighting bears a resemblance to the sighting made by Astronomer R. It was impossible to obtain full details of those sightings because this would have classed me as an official investigator. The details of these sightings should be obtained by official questionnaires. A meteorologist at the Lowell Observatory is identified here as observer PP. He was not interviewed, but a clipping was obtained from a Flagstaff newspaper covering his observations made on May 27, 1950. The object was observed between 12:15 and 12:20 p.m. on Saturday, May 20, from the grounds of the Lowell Observatory. The object presented a bright visible disc to the naked eye and passed moderately rapidly in front of a fractocumulus cloud in the northwest. Upon passing in front of the cloud its appearance changed from that of a bright object to a dark object, due to the change in contrast. No engine noise was heard, nor was there any exhaust. It seems that this might have been a weather balloon but in this case it would be strange if this meteorologist would become confused by it. He reports that it was not moving with the wind, but across the wind. Finally, in this survey of astronomers, my associates and I at the Perkins Observatory should be included. There are six of us there, and to the best of my knowledge, none of us has ever seen any unexplainable object in the sides. While in Albuquerque, I met, through Dr. la Paz, a Dr. Everton Conger, Instructor in Journalism at the University of New Mexico. On July 27, 1948, between 8:35 and 8:45 a.m. he noticed a disc-shaped object in the sky. It was flat and round like a flat plate. It appeared to be made of duraluminum and gave off reflected light very similar to the light reflected from a highly polished airplane wing. The full details of his sighting are in my notes. I obtained his cooperation and he would be very glad to fill out an official questionnaire. I also interviewed, while in Albuquerque, Mr. Redman and Mr. Morris, the two gentlemen whose picture appeared in Life magazine in the now-famous article on flying saucers. I questioned them separately and found that their stories were remarkably consistent. Indeed, since they viewed the object from widely different parts of the city, there is some possibility that the parallax of the object can be obtained by making theodolite sightings now on where the object appeared to them. The position of the object can be identified now because it was viewed close to a canyon in the mountains. Dr. La Paz has kindly offered to obtain the parallax of this object for us. Summary and Discussion Over 40 astronomers were interviewed of which five had made sightings of one sort or another. This is a higher percentage than among the populace at large. Perhaps this is to be expected, since astronomers do, after all, watch the skies. On the other hand, they will not likely be fooled by balloons, aircraft, and similar objects, as may the general populace. It is interesting to remark upon the attitude of the astronomers interviewed. The great majority were neither hostile nor overly interested; they gave one the general feeling that all flying saucer reports could be explained as misrepresentations of well-known objects and that there was :nothing intrinsic in the situation to cause concern. I took the time to talk rather seriously with a few of them, and to acquaint them with the fact that some of the sightings were truly puzzling and not at all easily explainable. Their interest was almost immediately aroused, indicating that their general lethargy is due to lack of information on the subject. And certainly another contributing factor to their desire not to talk about these things is their overwhelming fear of publicity. One headline in the nation's papers to the effect that "Astronomer Sees Flying Saucer" would be enough to brand the astronomer as questionable among his colleagues. Since I was able to talk with the men in confidence, I was able to gather very much more of their inner thoughts on the subject than a reporter or in interrogator would have been able to do, Actually hostility is rare; concern with their own immediate scientific problems is too great. There seems to be no convenient method by which to attack this problem, and most astronomers do not wish to become involved, not only because of the danger of publicity but because the data seem tenuous and unreliable. Therefore, it is my considered recommendation that the following procedure be adopted by the Air Force. First, the problem of unidentified aerial objects should be given the status of a scientific problem. In any scientific problem, the data are gathered with meticulous care and are weighed and considered, without rush, by entirely competent men. Therefore, it is proposed that some reputable group of scientists be asked to examine recent sightings which have already gone through one or two screenings. If this group becomes convinced that the data are worthy of being treated as a scientific problem, that is, that the sightings are valid and that unexplained phenomena really do exist, then they should be asked to vouch that these data are "worthy of being admitted into court." Armed with this scientific opinion, various scientific societies should be approached. The American Physical Society, the American Astronomical Society, and the Optical Society of America are suggested, in particular. These Societies should be asked, in view of the validity of the data, to appoint one or more members to constitute a panel to advise ATIC and perhaps to direct the necessary researches into the phenomena. This would serve not only to work toward an ultimate solution Of the problem, but in the meantime would lend dignity to the project. In short, either the phenomena which have been observed are worthy of scientific attention or they are not. If they are, then the entire problem should be treated scientifically and without fanfare. It is presumed that the scientific panel would work with the full knowledge and cooperation of the general-contractor, but would not be bound by secrecy, which would tend to hamper their work. It is possible that this panel might be a panel in the RDB, similar to those in geodesy, infrared, or upper atmospheric research. In the meantime, it is recommended that the Air Force approach the Joint Chiefs of Staff for endorsement of a considered statement of philosophy and policy for presentation to the public press. There is much confusion in the public mind as to what is being done about the situation, and a great deal of needless criticism is being directed toward the Air Forces for, "trying to cover up" or "dismissing the whole thing." The considered statement to the public press that the problem is being considered as a scientific one and is being referred to competent scientists in various fields should do a very great deal in satisfying the public clamour. It may be, of course, that this proposal will not get beyond the first step. The scientist, or scientists, who examine the carefully screened evidence may decide there still is not enough evidence to admit the problem into the court of scientific appeal. Personally, I hardly think that this will be the case, since the number of truly puzzling incidents is now impressive. The second stage may be a long one. The first effort should be to determine with great accuracy what the phenomena to be explained really are and to establish their reality beyond all question. Third stage would be the eventual publication of the findings of the scientific panel. This might take the form of a progress report. If, for instance, the scientific chase is led into a detailed examination of atmospheric optics, one can envision, perhaps, many years of work. This, however, is the price one pays for a truly scientific investigation. One final item is that the flying-saucer sightings have not died down, as was confidently predicted some years ago when the first deluge of sightings was regarded as mass hysteria. Unless the problem is attacked scientifically, we can look forward to periodic recurrences of flying-saucer reports. It appears, indeed, that the flying saucer along with the automobile is here to stay, and if we can't shoo it away, we must try to understand it. Appendix While in Los Angeles, I was asked to appear in a TV program with Gerald Herd, the BBC science analyst; with Walter Riddel, the rocket expert; and with Aldous Huxley. They were to have a round-table discussion on flying saucers. I declined immediately but was prevailed upon to be in the studio when the program was in progress. I am afraid that my presence as an astronomer "cramped their style" to a great degree, but nonetheless the program had the general effect of convincing the hearers that flying saucers did exist. There was very little constructive about the program. It consisted of a rehash of all the things we have heard so much about already. It might be profitable, for instance, to have a TV program, sponsored by the Air Force, acquainting the public with the problem of flying saucers as a scientific problem. Though suggested jokingly, there might be some point to this, if this investigation ever gets to the scientific panel stage. -------------------------- End of report and post
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 3 Re: Premature Birth & Abduction? From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com> Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 15:49:42 EST Fwd Date: Wed, 03 Feb 1999 12:59:42 -0500 Subject: Re: Premature Birth & Abduction? >Date: Tue, 02 Feb 1999 12:13:34 -0800 >From: Judith Dale <judithdale@earthlink.net> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: Re: Premature Birth & Abduction? >Hi Greg, Leanne, and all, >This subject of birth memories being a potential source of >alleged alien abduction memories, is an intriguing one. >I have yet to come across any documented 'proof' of birth >memories, but it is a topic that is rampant in the world of >child birthing. Thus, we have advocates of low lights, soft >voices, quiet music, and in some cases under water birth, during >the time of a woman's labor and birthing of her child. The >premise here, is that we do infact remember our birth, and those >memories can be traumatic or pleasant, depending on the >circumstances. <snip> >Still and all, I don't think any of this negates the fact that >folks are experiencing a phenomena that is beyond our everyday >view of the mundane. What if, we stopped debating the reality >and just began to operate from the premise that the phenomena of >alien visitation, space flight, and abduction is quite real. >Let's get down to brass tacks here. Why is it happening? What if >anything, do we need to do to respond? Is it a threat to our >well-being as humans? Although, I must say, I believe we are so >much of a threat to ourselves, that an "alien" threat doesn't >seem much worse to me. > >Judith Dale Dear, dear Judith Dale... thank you. A breath of fresh air in a stale room full of rhino juice and Gripple Dripple... Finally! I think I love you, Jimmy Mortellaro
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 3 Re: 'Apocalypse Pretty Soon' From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com> Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 16:48:15 EST Fwd Date: Wed, 03 Feb 1999 13:02:49 -0500 Subject: Re: 'Apocalypse Pretty Soon' > From: Mark Cashman <mcashman@ix.netcom.com> >Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 10:57:16 -0500 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: Re: 'Apocalypse Pretty Soon' >Mr Heard - >The last thing I would find "entertaining" is more attention >paid to these loonies. >The mainstream media and now you seem to find plenty of press >space and time to cover the kooks and nutcases who ride the >fringes of ufology. What you don't seem to find time and space >for are the serious researchers who are busy trying to find >something out about a subject largely scorned by science. >Over the last 50 years, there have been thousands of cases of >Unidentified Flying Objects interfering with vehicles, as >documented at > http://www.temporaldoorway.com/47emecat.htm >and in the BUFORA Vehicle Interference catalog and a similar >catalog from CUFOS (which included an excellent and revealing >statistical analysis by Mark Rodeghier). >There have been numerous cases of medical effects, including >short term eye and skin irritation, long term damage, and even >death, as documented at > http://www.temporaldoorway.com/eyeskin.htm >and in the recent catalog by John Schuessler (available from >MUFON). >There have been numerous traces left behind by UFOs which have >landed or approached the ground. These are documented in >numerous references, including Ted Phillips classic Physical >Trace Catalog. Some of these, such as the 1981 Trans-en-Provence >case, have remained unexplained and have been the subject of >further discussions, as can be found in: >http://www.temporaldoorway.com/ufo/analysis/transenp.htm >and at: >http://www.jse.com/ufo_reports/Vallee_returntotrans/toc.html >I am frankly sick of the attitude which allows the media to >ignore the solid and reputable investigations by reasonable and >scientifically oriented researchers, in favor of the clearly >bogus ranting and posturing of zealots and nutcases. >You could do better. You should do better. Try to do better. Dear Mr. Cashman; I am incensed, appalled, that you would malign Mr. Heard because he takes these matters, these well respected teachers and researchers so seriously, that he gives them the attention they so faithfully deserve. Greer and Unarius are the stall warts of our science. Dear Got in Himmel, Cash.... next thing you'll be denigrating our beloved Dr. Gesundt. Is nothing sacred? Jim
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 3 Re: 8/27/96 Re: MJ-12 Document From: Ed Stewart <ufoindex@jps.net> Date: Tue, 02 Feb 1999 14:42:01 -0800 Fwd Date: Wed, 03 Feb 1999 13:24:11 -0500 Subject: Re: 8/27/96 Re: MJ-12 Document On this repost, it was necessary to point out the shallowness of the counter-arguments of Stanton Friedman related to the alleged and bogus SCEO #092447, and by extension all old and new alleged MJ-12 documents referencing the bogus SCEO#092447. We also discover that Stanton Friedman had not been entirely truthful in his posts to this mailing list by allowing implications that in the past he had been in a "position" to handle TOP SECRET documents. His past continuous appeals to authority based on his alleged past experiences turned out to be irrelevant since never in his life Stanton Friedman had access to Top Secret documents. He never had a clearance that would have given him access to any such documents and his intellectual dishonesty was exposed in the repost, below. Ed Stewart --------- Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 03:58:15 -0400 To: ianr@global-data.com From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ebk@nobelmed.com> Subject: UFO UpDate: Re: MJ-12 Document From: egs@netcom.com (Edward G. Stewart) Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: MJ-12 Document To: ebk@nobelmed.com (UFO UpDates - Toronto) Date: Mon, 26 Aug 1996 23:58:22 -0700 (PDT) >From: fsphys@brunswickmicro.nb.ca >Date: Sat, 24 Aug 96 17:20:56 -0400 >I continue to be astonished by the misrepresentations of Ed >Stewart with regard to government documents and MJ-12. In his >latest scornful diatribe he casually ignores and even repeats >the nonsense of saying that Executive Order is the same as >Special Classified Executive Order.He repeatedly speaks of the >TF Memo being labelled as a Presidential Executive order. >Would everybody please read the short Sept.24, l947, memo >again? >It is not labelled executive order. It is not labelled Special >Classified Executive Order. It has no number on it. To paraphrase Dr. Willy Smith in a previously posted analysis supporting the Truman signature to be a photocopy forgery that Stanton Friedman completely ignored in his book and has so far ignored in this message list, Stanton Friedman's above is no more than another example of his recently acquired propensity to fall for the Cartesian fallacy, i.e., confusing a clear argument with a correct argument. The reasoning is based on faulty premises, and Stanton Friedman's conclusion is unwarranted. >It is listed in a reference list prepared in 1952 as Special >Classified Executive Order... The very documents that Ed cites >make a good case for saying the memo is genuine. I repeat it is >false to say it is listed as Executive Order #.. . It is false >to say it is labelled as SCEO # or anything else. Specifically, it is identified in the "alleged" Eisenhower Briefing's ENUMERATION OF ATTACHMENTS as: "ATTACHMENT A"........Special Classified Executive Order #092447. (TS/EO) *** and not as Special Classified Executive Order dated 092447, which would have been a proper way to identify any kind of classified executive order in briefing a President-elect of the United States. By clearly listing the Truman/Forrestal Memorandum as "Special Classified Executive Order #092447", it *** points to the genesis of the Eisenhower briefing as being created by an "outsider" and not an "insider". It is a mistake only an "outsider" would have made. >Why is that so hard to understand? Why can't Ed deal with >people pointing out his false claims such as Control Number er >being required...?? Frankly if it was stamped Executive >Order... I would agree it was a fraud. But it is not. Would you agree then that the Eisenhower Briefing is a fraud? It clearly identifies the alleged Truman/Forrestal Memorandum as "Special Classified Executive Order #092447? *** >Re Control numbers and Ed Stewart. >I think Ed would have us believe that if there are no control >numbers on a document, it must be fraudulent. Or as previously stated by me, breaches of security. Either way, requiring the genesis and provenance of the documents to be established in lieu of ownership being established. Neither the genesis/provenance of the documents, nor ownership, have ever been established or claimed for any of the MJ-12 documents. The genesis/provenance of the MJ-12 documents seems to be an area that you completely ignore. Care to discuss it? I am prepared. >His theoretical notions about what should have been done must >take a back seat to what was done. Nothing theoretical about my "notions". I have provided the source documentation as to how all TOP SECRET documents were to be handled in the control of the Department of Defense, of which the alleged Truman/Forrestal Memorandum and the Cutler/Twinning memo would have, had they come under the control of the Department of Defense which they would have been upon receipt of the memos by Defense Secretary Forrestal and General Twinning. >I am glad Ed noted that my quote of Dr. Pankratz was accurate. >If he had asked, I would have sent him a copy of the letter from >Dr. Pankratz. He didn't say accurate, he said "essentially accurate." And let us not forget in this discussion that your source, Dr. Pankratz, is on record from your quote of him as stating that both the Defense and Intelligence communities used serialized control numbers on TOP SECRET documents during the era. But they are not to be found on the alleged MJ-12 documents, any of them. Even though the alleged Truman/Forrestal memorandum and the Cutler/Twinning memo were allegedly addressed to members within the Department of Defense and the alleged Eisenhower Briefing was allegedly prepared by Admiral Hillenkoetter who at the time was assigned to the Intelligence community. >I try to deal with the world as it is, not the way Ed wishes it >had been. Which still doesn't excuse his false claim that the >list of attachments in the Ike Briefing refers to Executive >Order rather than Special Classified Executive Order. Stanton Friedman appears to continue to suggest that there would have been a difference between an Executive Order and a classified Executive Order. Yet, I have introduced documentation from the CIS, the Congressional Information Services, that shows that it made no difference whether Executive Orders were classified or not. Procedures for handling Presidential directives labeled as executive orders were in place, regardless as to whether they were classified or not, and that NO NUMBERING was assigned to them until such time that they would have become declassified. Yet, clearly the alleged Eisenhower Briefing document references the Truman/Forrestal Memorandum as a special classified executive order with a number, EO #092447. And that also other Presidential instruments were in effect at that time that the President of the United States could have used, and in fact did use, which had no requirement by law that anything labeled executive order did - whether it was classified or not, special or not. If the alleged Truman/Forrestal Memorandum was meant to be a "Special Classified Executive Order", it would not have been identified as #092447, but identified without any reference *** to a #, which supports the alleged Eisenhower Briefing document as being prepared by an "outsider" and not an "insider", in other words BOGUS. The alleged Eisenhower Briefing document does not identify the alleged Truman/Forrestal Memorandum as Special Classified Executive Order of 092447, nor does it identify it as Special Classified Executive Order dated 092447, but it clearly identifies it as #092447, giving it a number *** which is in total contradiction to established procedures and in place for handling any Presidential instrument labelled or suggestive that it was any kind of an executive order, classified or not, special or not. And if the alleged Truman/Forrestal Memorandum was not meant to be an Executive Order, classified or not, special or not, it would not have been identified as "Special Classified Executive Order" in the alleged Eisenhower Briefing document, but identified as any one of the other numerous Presidential instruments available at the time - which were used and just as appropriate for the execution of the order without incurring the requirement by law that any Presidential instrument identified as an executive order, classified or not, special or not, had to conform to the Federal Register Act of 1935. >Ed Stewart's analogy to Vince Tensor about each document >being a book in a library is only true for documents that go >through a central Document Control System. ALL Department of Defense activities were required to number ALL Top Secret documents and material serially, as well as marking the copy number, such as 1-of-1, or 1-of-2, as they were received in a calendar year series. It was required for that number to be posted to the document, as well as to a control register. That is a fact of life. Any found without such a serialized control number were either security breaches or "documents" that never came under the control of the Department of Defense and should be automatically suspected of being bogus until such time that the genesis/provenance of the documents are established and the "owners" of the documents identified and on record as being the "owners". The MJ-12 documents have no genesis or provenance to them and no one has claimed ownership. Until such time as the genesis or provenance of the documents is clearly established, they should be considered nothing but BOGUS. >Many classified documents-- from General A to General B, >from me to my boss.. from him to his boss did NOT go ******************** >through a central document control and therefore did NOT >have control numbers. But not all "classified documents" are TOP SECRET. The documented requirement applies to all TOP SECRET documents only. If all that Stanton Friedman ever handled in his "career" were SECRET or CONFIDENTIAL material, his statement above is intellectually dishonest since what we are discussing are TOP SECRET documents and not "classified documents" in general. I find the above extraordinarily interesting if Stanton Friedman here is suggesting that he has handled TOP SECRET documents in his career in classified programs. I have in my possession a letter dated Feb. 14, 1990 from Stanton T. Friedman addressed to "Mr. Dennis Stacy and Mr. Walter Andrus" with CC to "William Stephenson, ESQ, and miscelaneous [SIC] others" not identified by name. I quote from Stanton T. Friedman's letter: "4. ... Again the facts is that I held a Q and SECRET clearance ******************************* for 14 years, handled loads of classified materials, and have visited many classified facilities." --- Stanton T. Friedman, from letter of Feb.14, 1990 Stanton T. Friedman, by his own admission, only had a SECRET clearance, not a TOP SECRET clearance. Maybe he would like to explain what relevance his statement above regarding "from me to my boss..." has to do with this discusssion, or for that matter, his continued appeals to authority based on his "experiences" handling classified documents since apparently Stanton T. Friedman did not have a TOP SECRET clearance which means he would never have seen a TOP SECRET document, would never have produced a TOP SECRET document, would never have handled a TOP SECRET document, nor would ever have been allowed anywhere near any classified facilities that required a TOP SECRET clearance for access during his "14 years" working on classified programs while in industry. In other words, Stanton T. Friedman's continued appeal to authority regarding his experiences in classified programs over 14 years in industry not only constitutes a logical fallacy, i.e. appeal to authority, but also constitutes intellectual dishonesty if his clearance was indeed simply SECRET and not TOP SECRET. Of course, the possibility also exists that maybe Stanton T. Friedman was simply being shy and simply guilty of understatement when he wrote to Dennis Stacy, Walter Andrus and et al identifying his previously held clearance level as only SECRET and not TOP SECRET on his letter to them dated Feb. 14, 1990. >Perhaps there are others seeing this >discussion who created TS documents and could join in here?? Certainly it wasn't nuclear physicist Stanton T. Friedman. I have already indicated an individual who is not on this mailing list who held the following positions in his military career: TOP SECRET CONTROL OFFICER, TOP SECRET DESTRUCTION OFFICIAL, SECURITY MANAGER, CLASSIFIED DOCUMENT CUSTODIAN, COMSEC CUSTODIAN, and held a CRITICAL NUCLEAR WEAPONS POSITION. As it so happens, that individual (who Stanton Friedman has met at the Connecticut UFO Conference in 1995) will be spending a week with me (together we will be visiting many Northern California libraries, historical societies, universities, and archives). I will ask him to post to this List regarding the MJ-12 documents and his problems with the alleged documents based on his personal experiences holding the above jobs while in the military. Stanton Friedman already knows what his position is on the MJ-12 documents. Ed Stewart --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ed Stewart - egs@netcom.com - | So Man, who here seems principal alone, "There is | Perhaps acts second to some sphere unknown. Something Going On!" ,>'?'<, | Touches some wheel, or verges to some goal, -Salvador Freixedo- ( O O ) | 'Tis but a part we see, and not a whole. -------------------ooOO-(_)-OOoo------- Alexander Pope, Essay on Man -------
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 3 Re: 8/27/96 Re: MJ-12 Document From: Ed Stewart <ufoindex@jps.net> Date: Tue, 02 Feb 1999 14:54:52 -0800 Fwd Date: Wed, 03 Feb 1999 13:37:34 -0500 Subject: Re: 8/27/96 Re: MJ-12 Document This repost serves two purposes. First, to show the selectiveness of data employed by the MJ-12 promoters, i.e. in this case Stanton Friedman's. Second, to point out to what extent MJ-12 promoters will go to in their irrelevance. Three to four months later, Stanton Friedman repeated his accusations, slightly modifying them to include Kevin Randle who was also pointing out why the MJ-12 documents were bogus why. Ed Stewart --------- Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 03:58:46 -0400 To: ianr@global-data.com From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ebk@nobelmed.com> Subject: UFO UpDate: Re: MJ-12 Document From: egs@netcom.com (Edward G. Stewart) Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: MJ-12 Document To: ebk@nobelmed.com (UFO UpDates - Toronto) Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 00:07:10 -0700 (PDT) >From: fsphys@brunswickmicro.nb.ca >Date: Sat, 24 Aug 96 18:20:47 -0400 >Re Ed Stewart, Dr. Wescott, and TOP SECRET/MAJIC. >I guess my Publisher, Marlowe and Co. must have already put >out another printing of TOP SECRET/MAJIC. Before he does that, may I suggest that either you, or your ghost writer, rewrite it and correct the misleading "endorsements" you present in the book. >My pages 78 and 133 don't have the word "endorsement". Friedman is correct. He doesn't use the word "ENDORSEMENT". My use of quotes around the word endorsement was for emphasis and not a direct attribution to a word that Friedman wrote. When I attribute something directly to what Friedman wrote, I provide the source documentation including page number where anyone can independently verify it. Nevertheless, Friedman does say: "His (Kevin Randle) omission of linguistics expert Roger Wescott's conclusions supporting the legitimacy of the briefing document on the basis of Hillenkoeter's writing." ---Stanton T. Friedman, from page 133 AND THAT IS AN EXACT QUOTE FROM PAGE 133. It is nothing but intellectual dishonesty on Stanton T. Friedman to state that Roger Wescott's conclusions supported the legitimacy of the briefing document. >I can't find retraction in Roger Wescott's letter either. From Wescott's letter previously posted in its entirely to this mailing list and appearing in IUR, vol. 13, no.4, July/August 1988, page 19: "...I have no strong conviction favoring either rather polarized position in the matter..." "I wrote that I thought its fraudulance unproved." "I could equally well have maintained that its authenticity is unproved." "...inconclusiveness seems to me to be of its essence." --- Dr. Roger W. Wescott Yet, in 1996 Friedman states in his book that Dr. Roger W. Wescott's conclusions supported the legitimacy of the Hillenkoetter material. That is simply intellectual dishonesty of Stanton T. Friedman's part. Pure and simple. >I strongly recommend everybody read what is actually said on >those two pages and reread Roger's >letter, (which I had >forgotten, if I ever saw it) and Ed's description of >it. Again, the letter can be found in IUR, vol. 13, no. 4, July/August 1988 on page 19, and also reproduced in JUST CAUSE (NEW SERIES) No.18, December 1988, pp. 4-5. Apparently, Stanton T. Friedman has "forgotten" a lot regarding the early controversy over the MJ-12 documents, or maybe Stanton T. Friedman had his head buried in some archive and when he came up for air, everyone forgot to mention it to him that Dr. Wescott was no longer interested in being quoted by Moore, Shandera or Friedman as supportive of the Hillenkoetter material. >As usual he is living in his own little world. I hope he is >being paid well to birddog me. Perhaps by the successor to >Majestic 12? Stan Friedman. My goodness! Nuclear physicist Stanton T. Friedman, the original Roswell researcher with fourteen years handling classified documents in industry, truly outdoes himself with the above insight, no doubt based on his personal experiences in heroic and unprecedented archival research. No doubt, I will also soon be receiving an updated version of my resume from Richard J. Boylan, Ph.D. (GRIN) Now back to the real world. Ed Stewart --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ed Stewart - egs@netcom.com - | So Man, who here seems principal alone, "There is | Perhaps acts second to some sphere unknown. Something Going On!" ,>'?'<, | Touches some wheel, or verges to some goal, -Salvador Freixedo- ( O O ) | 'Tis but a part we see, and not a whole. -------------------ooOO-(_)-OOoo------- Alexander Pope, Essay on Man -------
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 3 Re: From: Joe Firmage <jfirmage@uswebcks.com> Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 15:28:19 -0800 Fwd Date: Wed, 03 Feb 1999 13:40:16 -0500 Subject: Re: Check out... http://www.nytimes.com/library/national/science/020299sci-essay.html J O S E P H F I R M A G E Founder & Chairman ______________________________________
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 3 Re: FOIA on SOM 1-01 From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net> Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 20:13:02 -0400 Fwd Date: Wed, 03 Feb 1999 13:53:54 -0500 Subject: Re: FOIA on SOM 1-01 >Date: Tue, 02 Feb 1999 13:18:45 -0800 >From: Jan Aldrich <jan@cyberzone.net ()> >To: updates@globalserve.net >Subject: FOIA on SOM 1-01 >As indicated in the posting from Bill Hamilton and the original >"Authentication II" on Joe Firmage's site, the owner and Top >Secret Control Number of SOM 1-01 has been identified. >Hamilton states the Special Operations Manual 1-01 indeed has a >Top Secret Control number. The discussion in the Woods' >"Authentication II" does not indicate they found a TS Control >Number, however, they do indicate that the manual apparently is >stamped Kirtland Air Force Base, New Mexico. >If there is a TS Control Number and a stamp indicating that the >document belonged to Kirkland AFB, NM, then you have an obvious >FOIA. The obvious thing to do is FOIA Kirkland AFB using their >TS Control Number. >See references: >On the 28th of January 1999, Bill Hamilton, the post >that appears in the Skywatch Archives: >http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/media/mailing/archive/skywatch/msg0464 >5.shtml >One of the objections raised was that the SOM1-01 manual had no >document control number which is standard for Top Secret >material. >Dr. Wood contacted Don Berliner who had independently of Tim >Cooper received a filmed copy of this document in the mail and >had discovered that one frame had not been developed and >printed. >This frame, upon examination, contained the missing document >control number. >------------------- >In Authentication II, page 11, we find the information below: >http://www.thewordistruth.org/narr_article.cfm?id=3D763&page=3D11 >Where is the document control?" The answer to the first concern >is that Bob Wood and Don Berliner found one frame that had not >been initially reproduced because of the poor quality of the >image -- and it turned out to be the required control page. See >page i. It shows that there were pages that were replaced by the >authority of MJ/01 and MJ/04 and the initials of the people who >were doing it are fuzzy but identifiable. Looking at page i, and >the facing page, it can be seen that this document came from >Kirtland Air Force base. It shows the authority as MJ/01 or >MJ/04. It lists the pages that were changed on the left, the >date that the pages were changed, and the date and time and >initials of the person who changed them, either an EWL or a JRT. >We have gone through lists of officers of that time period and >have identified all the EWLs and JRTs. We're homing in on him, >on them, or her. It is not clear that it needs to be an officer >-- could be a noncom or a civilian. A couple of correctons are in order here. The SOM 1.01 document had nothing whatsoever to do with Tim Cooper. Strictly to Don Berliner. Cooper did not receive a copy. Also it was on film _not_ hard copy. Stan Friedman
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 3 Mig-29 SMT Has Plasma Stealth System From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@get2net.dk> Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 01:54:52 +0100 (MET) Fwd Date: Wed, 03 Feb 1999 14:07:02 -0500 Subject: Mig-29 SMT Has Plasma Stealth System Recently I forwarded a TASS news item on the Russian plasma stealth already developed. See http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates/1999/jan/m30-016.shtml J. Pharabod, who alerted the Skunk Works mailing list to the TASS message, has just forwarded an interesting update. URL: http://www.ufomind.com/military/aircraft/skunkworks/mailing/msg02046.shtml Stig *** Skunk Works Mailing List Re: Russian plasma stealth ? Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 10:27:55 +0100 (MET) From: pharabod@in2p3.fr Subject: Re: Russian plasma stealth? The following message was posted to rec.aviation.military by Philip Kaploun last Saturday (January 30). J. Pharabod --- >Just read in "AeroKosmichekie Novosti" >- Aerospace News: >Mig-29SMT is equiped with plasma stealth system. It >was already tested in RuAF (probably that first >machine upgraded recently). > Phil
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 3 Re: 08-20-96: MJ12 - An Estimate of the Situation From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net> Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 21:01:07 -0400 Fwd Date: Wed, 03 Feb 1999 14:10:59 -0500 Subject: Re: 08-20-96: MJ12 - An Estimate of the Situation >Date: Mon, 01 Feb 1999 14:50:15 -0800 >From: Ed Stewart <ufoindex@jps.net> >To: updates@globalserve.net >Subject: 08-20-96: MJ12 - An Estimate of the Situation >Another item of mutual "authenticity" and proclaimed as such by >both Stanton Friedman and the research team of Woods and Woods >is the SCEO #092447 which is attachment A in the original >alleged MJ-12 papers and cited in the new alleged MJ-12 papers. >The following research posted in 1996 after another challenge by >Stanton Friedman which showed his ignorance and lack of relevant >research on his part on executive orders should clear any doubt >on anyone's mind that the document in question is a hoax; and by >extension, any new alleged MJ-12 document that cites the alleged >MJ-12 executive order. >Ed Stewart >----- >Date: Sat, 24 Aug 1996 11:41:04 -0400 >To: ianr@global-data.com >From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ebk@nobelmed.com> >Subject: UFO UpDate: Re: MJ-12 Document >From: egs@netcom.com (Edward G. Stewart) >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: MJ-12 Document >To: ebk@nobelmed.com (UFO UpDates - Toronto) >Date: Fri, 23 Aug 1996 22:12:27 -0700 (PDT) >>From: fsphys@brunswickmicro.nb.ca >>Date: Sun, 18 Aug 96 00:53:32 -0400 >>The Caus criticism is baseless. >So proclaims nuclear physicist Stanton T. Friedman. Must be so. >Then again, maybe not so fast. <snip> Is it really so difficult for Ed to notice that there is no Executive Order or SCEO number on the TF memo? The only place a number, if one can call it that, appears, is in a listing in a memo written 5 years later. As I have previously noted the State Department uses the date in its filing system. It is convenient. In the text on page 2 of the EBD it says " by special classified executive order of President Truman". It Does _not_ say Special Classified Executive Order or SPECIAL CLASSIFIED EXECUTIVE ORDER or SCEO 092747. The criticism fails. Stan Friedman
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 3 Re: RAMS - Cleanup The Corners From: Michael Christol <mchristo@mindspring.com> Date: Tue, 02 Feb 1999 19:26:58 -0600 Fwd Date: Wed, 03 Feb 1999 14:19:05 -0500 Subject: Re: RAMS - Cleanup The Corners >Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 16:07:05 +0000 >From: Robert A. M. Stephens <sti3818@montana.com> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: Re: RAMS - Cleanup The Corners >Hello Mike, >Great mail. Thank you. I have no compunction in answering >anything or anyone pertinent to what I know and have been >exposed to over 20 years with NASA and aerospace. I will not >divulge things about my sweetheart's bra size and such as I >think this is not inclusive to the subject of UFOs and such. Damn...considering some of the stuff that is being beaten to death on the list, that might well be the most interesting thing you could post. <G> But, at my age, I don't know that it would move me very much... <g> Did you ever know an engineer at Huntsville, by the name of Norris Collier? I grew up with him in Georgia and He worked there for NASA. >I am also wearing down on the STS-48 and STS-80 mission data. >They all need to get the full color tapes of all missions from >JSC. They are free for the asking plus postage. They then can >see for themsleves and make up in their fomented minds whatever >they wish. I have both of these tapes in my video collection. Some of the "daylight" footage is very interesting...Objects coming from virtually every angle. The one I like the best is the one where this white object moves from left to right, and just about the time it is about to exit the picture, it stops and reverses course...I thought that was very interesting... There are a lot of shots which I find intriging...enought about that. >All other data I think is good to offer to folks who are >interested, which should get them going in new directions of >quest. >thanks a bunch for this mail. Tell me something Robert. NASA was supposedly developing the Aero-Space Plane, the X-30. What has become of that program? I was thinking it was suppose to be flying by 1998 or 1999. Yet, now, I don't hear anything about it. REgards, Mike
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 3 Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality From: Peter Brookesmith Mendoza <DarkSecretPB@compuserve.com> Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 20:27:56 -0500 Fwd Date: Wed, 03 Feb 1999 14:27:10 -0500 Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality With the compliments of the Duke of Mendoza: >From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 22:33:17 -0500 >>Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 22:49:34 -0500 >>From: Peter Brookesmith Mendoza <DarkSecretPB@compuserve.com> >>Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >>Even that wicked nasty debunker, my good friend Phil >>Klass, reserves his venom for abduction investigators, not >>abductees. This is consistent with his position on UFO >>investigators in general, as opposed to UFO witnesses in >>general. >Not so. He's scorned abductees as "little nobodies" who invent >(or delude themselves with) abduction stories to get on TV. Sorry. Should have remembered the Moon's been full this week and said "reserves his *greatest* venom", or "reserves *by far the greater part of* his venom". Or made it clear that I don't think his "little nobodies" remark is venomous, but just ignorant. Or just scornful. In any case misguided, off (moon)beam, and not true in enough cases to make a valid generalization. Phil Klass has taken me greatly to task, with the usual row of obscure wagers (at least their conditions confuse me) for taking him to task over this comment in my book. I've told him he's out of order. We continue the correspondence. Three points. One, Klass's book on abductions is if anything sympathetic to abductees, whom he sees as exploited, as opposed to their investigators, whom he sees as corrupt. Two, just to rub it in, I'm aware of Klass's scornful comment and have publicly and privately disagreed with it. Three, Greg knows that full well. Can we get back to an interesting and refreshingly civilized discussion? best wishes Pompadour D. Mohawk Axillary Reserve
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 3 Re: Premature Birth & Abduction? From: Mendoza <DarkSecretPB@compuserve.com> Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 20:27:59 -0500 Fwd Date: Wed, 03 Feb 1999 14:30:55 -0500 Subject: Re: Premature Birth & Abduction? More compliments of the Duke to Greg & all-- >From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: Re: Premature Birth & Abduction? >Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 22:27:33 -0500 >The C-section issue came up when Alvin Lawson suggested that >alleged abduction memories were really memories of birth. One of >the many arguments against him was that no abductees could have >been born with C-sections. My turn for picky correction. Al Lawson maintained, as I recall, at one point that he could tell the difference between a naturally born abductee and a C-sectioned one, from their abduction narratives, and that this checked out when the medical records were consulted. Possibly this is discussed in the papers--greatly developed versions of his original ones on hypnosis and birth memory--on his website, whose URL unfortunately I don't have (try Metacrawler). >(The other one, of course, was that >nobody has ever proved that anyone remembers being born.) No one has ever _proved_ anyone remembers anything, least of all being abducted. And the notion of birth memory is a good deal subtler than that. Not that I buy the Lawson thesis, but let's be fair to the man. One of the most frustrating, and in my view most revealing, things about Lawson's research into "real" and "false" abductions, in which he maintained that abductees and non-abductees produced strikingly similar stories under hypnosis, is that while many were called to rage against it--not always reasonably--none were called to repeat the experiment(s) in a manner that took criticisms into account. A caricaturist would say Believers were frightened to, and Disbelievers thought they didn't have to. Oh, dear. best wishes Peepshow D. Magnification Keyholes & Escutcheons To Order
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 3 Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality From: Mendoza <DarkSecretPB@compuserve.com> Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 20:28:03 -0500 Fwd Date: Wed, 03 Feb 1999 14:42:43 -0500 Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality With the compliments of the Duke of Mendoza: >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net> >Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >Date: Tue, 02 Feb 99 10:54:43 PST Dsicussing soiling oneself while stressed, Jerome said: >I doubt that such loss of control "is a fairy [sic] well accepted >given." In fact, it is discussed so infrequently in accounts of >violent or traumatic events (which, it ought to be noted, are >far, far more frequent than abduction accounts) And later remarked >It's a sort of ultimate humiliation. Which I suspect we all agree is why it isn't mentioned very often, even by abductees, who are prepared to tell us of many other humilations. Whether it happens to fairies I do not know. I saw a leprechaun once, but my linen at least retained its freshness. However, it _is_ accepted by those involved in training police officers how to deal with violent confrontations and their aftermath that self-soiling is indeed common, and the point of the training is to get people to accept that it's likely to happen, accept it _has_ happened, but to concentrate on the foresight and survive the gunfight nonetheless. The eventuality is discussed at length by Capt. Massad Ayoob in a lecture (available on videotape from Lethal Force Institute, PO Box 122, Concord, NH 03301) called "Physiopsychological Aspects of Violent Encounters". In this he also recounts cases of officers having out-of-body experiences (OBEs), looking down at themselves as the gunfight progressed, and with much good humor acknowledges the embarrassment (even shame) these officers have felt after the experience, and goes on to explain the theory of OBE resulting from stress. I've often wondered how many abduction stories have derived from OBEs created by stress. That would be a nice fat research job for someone, and life in abduction research would actually be _more_ interesting if abductologists took the view of proper ufologists, that 95 out of 100 claims were likely to fall apart on close inspection. (I think Mark Cashman first suggested this might be a fruitful approach.) But as abductologists have now decided why the aliens are here, and even that they'll be out of the closet within the next couple of generations or even the next five years, I doubt it'll be one of the familiar crew who'll adopt this line. >I was writing a short story collection by Richard Currey, Gosh, Jerry, you never told us this before. And how long did it take you to finish "Moby Dick"? :-) best wishes Projectionist D. Mabinogion Lost Celtic Anti-Hero
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 3 Re: Gulf Sighting Report - U.S. Navy Witness From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@aol.com> Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 20:26:56 EST Fwd Date: Wed, 03 Feb 1999 14:47:26 -0500 Subject: Re: Gulf Sighting Report - U.S. Navy Witness >From: Ben Field <ben@abcfield.force9.co.uk> >Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 19:19:01 -0000 >Fwd Date: Tue, 02 Feb 1999 15:22:48 -0500 >Subject: Gulf Sighting Report - U.S. Navy Witness >Follows is a report BUFOD has recently received, does anybody >have any idea weather this could have been a spinning satellite? Well let's take a stab at it. >Day sighting took place: Sunday >Day (date): 24&25 >Month sighting took place: January >Year sighting took place: 1999 >Time sighting took place: 1900 >am/pm: PM >Description of area where sighting took place: Myself, a >shipmate, and one other under NVG's or Night Vision Goggles >witnessed a light inside orion's star system. >Map ref: Gulf of Aden >Circumstances of the sighting/experience: We observed what >appeared to be flashing lights in the Orion star system. When >observed under NVG's the light was stationary and pulsing from >bright to dim. The belt of Orion lies on the celestial equator, where a geosynchronous communication satellite would be placed. This could explain the light being stationary. One problem is that this would place the object 22,000 miles from Earth. It would be extremely dim, 10,000 times dimmer than a satellite only 220 miles up. I doubt that any geosynchronous satellites are visible to the naked eye (anybody can correct me if I am wrong), though its not clear from the report whether this was seen with the naked eye or only through NVG's. My planetarium program also indicates this sighting occurred about 2 hours after sunset but before complete darkness. The moon was half full and about 30 degrees away. Viewing conditions, therefore, were not optimal for seeing a dim object with the naked eye. Would NVG's make a distant satellite under such conditions that much more visible? Since these are designed to amplify infrared, not visible light, I'm not sure. Anybody else have some some thoughts here? >There were no planes in sight, but the satellites >we saw were prodominantly moving. We are in the Gulf of Aden on >a Western Pacific Deployment for the Navy. At about the same >time we witnessed the occurence on the 24th and 25th of January >1999. I sent a message to the Chief Scientist, Dan Werthimer of >SETI and his reply was, "it must be a plane or satellite spinning >really fast. <snip> >(Weather and Conditions) - Clear >(Weather and Conditions) - Stars >The UFO was sighted for Minutes: 20 A plane wouldn't be stationary or spinning for 20 minutes. Unless a satellite is in geosynchronous orbit, it wouldn't appear stationary either. If they were seeing reflections off any flat rotating surfaces (like solar panels) of a geosynchronous satellite, then maybe they moved out of line of sight reflection after 20 minutes. Satellites at much lower altitudes disappear into the Earth's shadow after a few minutes, but that wouldn't apply in this situation, since the satellite would be so far from Earth. Either this was geosynchronous satellite rendered visible with NVG's or it was a Maccabee TRUFO. Anybody else care to jump in? David Rudiak
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 3 Spectacular UK Video Of Triangle (Jan. 20 1999) From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@get2net.dk> Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 03:19:15 +0100 (MET) Fwd Date: Wed, 03 Feb 1999 16:01:34 -0500 Subject: Spectacular UK Video Of Triangle (Jan. 20 1999) Source: "alt.aliens.they-are-here". Stig *** From: "Kenneth Mundell" <kenm@globalnet.co.uk> Newsgroups: alt.alien.research,alt.alien.visitors,alt.aliens.they -are-here Subject: Spectacular Video link Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 23:38:48 -0000 This video on my website taken not that far from a military base shows a UFO - triangular - with warning lights travelling sideways. This is proof that the governments and military are covering up knowledge of this 'technology' - as it has flashing lights on it. The avi is 3.3mb and will only take approx 12 minutes to download at 56kps. Taken on 20th January 1999 http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~kenm
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 3 Pulsar Newsletter - Issue No. 3 From: James Easton <pulsar@compuserve.com> Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 21:59:03 -0500 Fwd Date: Wed, 03 Feb 1999 16:13:24 -0500 Subject: Pulsar Newsletter - Issue No. 3 Pulsar Newsletter - Issue No. 3 Welcome to the third issue of the Pulsar newsletter. CONTENTS 1. New Revelations in the 'Roswell alien autopsy' Affair. 2. Recovered Sea Wreckage Was Not From a 'UFO'. 3. Nick Pope's Time-Warp. 4. Aliens Invade Earth to Reclaim Crop Circles. 5. Report of 'UFO' Crash Near Holloman Air Force Base. 6. 'UFOs', Target Drones and UAVs. 7. Rendlesham - Ministry of Defence Responds. 8. Bookmarks. ~~~~~ >>>>> oo0oo <<<<< ~~~~~ 1. New Revelations in the 'Roswell alien autopsy' Affair. A centre of recent focus has been the 'tent footage', claimed to form part of the archive film which Ray Santilli, a London businessman involved in the entertainment industry, said he had acquired in the US from an elderly, ex-military, cameraman, who also sold him some rare, early concert footage of Elvis Presley. The 'tent footage' was the first alleged 'Roswell' film which Santilli made available in late December 1994/early January 1995. Amongst those who saw a copy of the film on video were 'crop circle' aficionados Reg Presley, Colin Andrews and George Wingfield. Santilli also provided a copy of the video to Philip Mantle from the British UFO Research Association (BUFORA). Even at that early stage, there were some misgivings about the authenticity of this film, with reports that it had a 'green cast' and exhibited no signs of originating from old film stock. A video showing part of the 'tent footage' was received in the US by Robert Kiviat, producer of the Fox network's "Alien Autopsy: Fact or Fiction", a televised documentary which became a huge success when later itself released on video. Although Mantle had confirmed that Santilli had a copy of the film which was "crystal clear", Kiviat's video was poor quality, with the faces of the 'medics' being, 'blackened out'. Aside from these early showings, Santilli never released the 'tent footage' and as the main 'alien autopsy' took centre stage, circa May 1995, began to distance himself from the first film, claiming that neither himself or the 'cameraman' were satisfied with its authenticity. Stills from the 'tent footage' can be seen on Neil Morris's Web site, at URL: http://adm2.ph.man.ac.uk/tentft.htm It wasn't until June, 1998, that there was published evidence indicating the 'tent footage' to be a definite hoax. Philip Mantle reported that on 30 March, l998, he had received information from an unnamed source, who claimed to have taken part in the filming. Subsequently, Mantle and researcher Tim Matthews from the Lancashire UFO Society, revealed the names of "those alleged to have faked the tent footage", as Keith Bateman and Andy Price Watts, from Milton Keynes, England. The story was picked up by Robert Kiviat and on 28 December, 1998, it featured in a new Fox network documentary 'World's Greatest Hoaxes: Secrets Finally Revealed'. It was only in response to the recent Fox broadcast that Santilli claimed to have been aware the footage was a "practical joke" played on him, maintaining it didn't affect the authenticity of the 'alien autopsy' film. Further information, including Santilli's rebuttals, can be found on Mark Center's informative Web site, at URL: http://www.uforeport.com/kiviat1.html Although the program included an interview with one of the persons who had apparently participated in the 'tent footage', he was not, as claimed in the Fox press release, "one of the actors who took part in staging the alien autopsy ruse". The 'alien autopsy' footage which had been broadcast world-wide was a completely separate and vastly superior sequence of film. As a hoax, none of the participants involved have been identified. Missing from the evidence was an interview with either Bateman or Price-Watts. Nick Fielding, a journalist with the UK national newspaper 'The Mail on Sunday' and who I had worked with previously, was familiar with the complex and by no means straightforward 'alien autopsy' history. Following these developments, Nick contacted myself with the aim of finally resolving the 'tent footage' claims. Bateman and Price-Watts agreed to tell Nick Fielding the entire story and on Saturday 16 January I published details of the impending 'Mail on Sunday' article, together with some factual background. With permission from the 'Mail on Sunday', a transcript of the full expose, published on 17 January, together with the images from the article, can be found on my Web site at http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/pulsar/mail_os.htm Price-Watts confirmed that the 'tent footage' setting was "a barn in the quiet village of Ridgmont, Bedfordshire". The 'alien' was his 12-year-old son. Elliot Willis, a technician and Roger Baker, the local butcher, played the two medical staff. During filming, the local farmer walked in and Bateman recalled, "I suddenly thought we could use him". "There was an old scarecrow in the corner of the barn and we got the coat from it, put it on him and he had a little cameo role as President Truman. We could hardly stop ourselves laughing as we shot the video, which took about an hour and a half to complete". Was this the original source of Santilli's later claims that amongst the reels of 'Roswell' film there was footage of President Truman? In response, Ray Santilli told me that he stood by his last rebuttal, that he was the innocent victim of a practical joke and referring to Bateman and Price-Watts' assertions commented, "Why not ask them who shot Kennedy?". However, there seems to be further evidence which may substantiate Keith Bateman and Alan Price-Watts' claims that Ray Santilli knew the true origins of the 'tent footage'. Researching the earliest background to this film, I discovered an important commentary which appeared in Colin Andrews' 'Winter 1995' issue of his 'Circles Phenomenon Research International Newsletter', published during June 1995. Giving a detailed account of his initial involvement, Andrews writes: "During the first days of 1995, I received a telephone call in the U.S. office from my close friend, Reg Presley in the U.K. Many people know of Reg's interest in the crop circle phenomenon and UFO's. He is the lead singer of the popular 60's rock group 'The Troggs' ('Wild Thing', 'Love Is All Around', etc.). Reg told me that his manager had been talking with a business man in London, Raymond Santilli, managing director and owner of Merlin Productions, a mass media organization with close show biz connections. He and Reg had business dealings some years ago and were tying up loose ends. Santilli suggested to Reg's manager that Reg should come to London and see some material Ray thought he would be interested in. Ray claimed the material was the original U.S. army film of the crashed UFO at Roswell". [...] I asked Santilli if he would permit me to take a copy of the film back to America, where I could obtain a medical opinion on the procedures being undertaken. Santilli agreed under the condition that no one else would be permitted to view it. Bound by this agreement, I returned to the U.S. and showed it to Dr. Gale Ramsby, MD, professor of Radiology at the University of Connecticut Health Center. It is the opinion of Dr. Ramsby that the film may show a medical procedure rather than an autopsy. Santilli verified that the photographer does indeed claim that this was an emergency procedure carried out in a barn at the crash site after discovering that one of the two aliens was in fact still alive". So how could Ray Santilli have known the film setting was a barn? The default answer must be that he was fully aware of the film's true origins. An alternative explanation would have to be that the 'cameraman' did confirm he had shot the film in a barn and it documented an emergency medical procedure on one of the 'aliens'. Given what we no know about the true background, that doesn't seem the least plausible. Perhaps the overall conclusion is the one most evident; the 'barn footage' was always known to be fake and originally promoted as a 'medical procedure' on an 'alien', claiming the 'cameraman' confirmed details of its authenticity. Subsequently, the 'tent footage' was dropped as it had become surplus to requirements, became something of a problem and most importantly, detracted from the far superior 'alien autopsy' footage. Part of the 'tent footage' which Bob Kiviat acquired and which had faces digitally masked, might have been a result of maintaining its presence as 'Roswell' evidence, whilst ensuring none of the actors were identified. Thus the 'cameraman' subsequently became 'uncertain' about this sequence of film...and so on. I anticipate there will be further developments in the 'alien autopsy' affair. ~~~~~ >>>>> oo0oo <<<<< ~~~~~ 2. Recovered Sea Wreckage Was Not From a 'UFO'. On 17 December, 1998, Iain Maciver, a freelance journalist from Stornoway on the Isle of Lewis in Scotland, published a news report which read: PART of a military helicopter has been dragged up in nets by a trawler off the Western Isles of Scotland. Yet, incredibly, none has been reported missing. There was speculation last night (WED) that the amazing find, reported by a French trawler, could explain the UFO seen plunging into the sea off the Isle of Lewis by several witnesses two years ago. The RAF confirmed it had launched an investigation after the find of a helicopter rotor head with four blades, and part of a gearbox. The cluster was dredged up from a depth of 1,000 feet in a position about 80 miles west of the Butt of Lewis. It has emerged that the trawler, the Albert Granet, was last night believed to be making for Stornoway with what could be part of a Westland helicopter. Only last month, part of the BBC1 programme Mysteries with Carol Vorderman was devoted to dramatic accounts from witnesses of the sightings of the plummeting, smoking UFO north-west of the Butt of Lewis. The RAF last night insisted: "None of our aircraft is missing." No helicopters have been reported lost or missing in the area for decades. RAF spokesman Craig Lindsay did, however, confirm that serial numbers from the recovered cluster indicate that it may be from a helicopter made by Westland. The twin-engined Westland Lynx, used by many worldwide forces, is often used in maritime reconnaissance and operates well from aircraft carriers. It also has four rotor blades. The RAF spokesman stressed: "We eliminated all aircraft from UK forces at the time. We even investigated the possibility of secret testing but we drew a blank." However, the French trawler's find is bound to add to speculation that the military know more than they are saying about the mysterious incident involving the UFO on Saturday, October 26, 1996, off Ness in the north of Lewis. Flashes and explosions in the sky were reported by a number of credible witnesses. There was a large scale military exercise going on in the sea off Lewis and there were even claims that a rogue missile had been deliberately destroyed. A sea and air search covering 1,000 square miles was launched after the witnesses reported seeing flashes, smoke and hearing two explosions off the west coast something apparently plunged into the sea. It was initially thought obvious that an aircraft had crashed and police, coastguards and ambulance crews rushed to Ness in case there were casualties. An RAF Nimrod aircraft was launched as was Stornoway Coastguard's helicopter, and an RAF Sea King helicopter from Lossiemouth. Searches began by a coastguard tug and the Stornoway lifeboat. UFO watchers had a field day with astronomers also joining in claiming there was unusual meteorite activity over the Atlantic and other parts of the globe. Western Isles MP Calum Macdonald, now a Scottish Office minister, tabled Parliamentary Questions to the then Defence Secretary, Michael Portillo. He demanded to know if the military was responsible for the incident which sparked off a major air and sea search reported to have cost in excess of 200,000 pounds. Mr Portillo said there was no evidence the military was in any way involved. The Royal Artillery Range in Benbecula confirmed that they had not carried out any test firing that Saturday. Comparisons were later drawn between the events and the TV series The X Files. The RAF at Kinloss assumed responsibility for the incident which was initially handled by Stornoway Coastguard. A coastguard insider confirmed the extent and effort put into the search after the UFO sighting was 'very unusual'. He said the buzz was that a missile had gone seriously wrong and was brought down by the military. "The intensive search was not so much to discover wreckage but to ensure nothing was ever found," said the source. Witnesses reported seeing a vapour trail high in the sky and at least 15 to 20 miles out to the west of the Butt of Lewis. No wreckage or tell-tale oil spills were ever found. All sorts of alternative theories were put forward ranging from lightning, to meteorites and plummeting space junk. [...] [End] I followed up the story and Ian informed he had subsequently released this news report: ROTOR blades and engine parts found in a trawler's nets are from a Royal Navy which ditched 16 years ago while shadowing a Soviet submarine. Rear Admiral Iain Henderson, the Flag Officer, Naval Aviation, based at Naval Air Command in Yeovilton, ordered that it should be confirmed to halt speculation that the bits were from a UFO seen falling into the sea off the Western Isles of Scotland two years ago. The four blades and various attached pieces including a gearbox, were found 80 miles north-west of the Butt of Lewis by a French trawler. The Rear Admiral confirmed it was from a Westland Lynx HAS (Helicopter Anti-Submarine) Mk2 which went down during a mission on September 30, 1982. His spokesman, Anthony Worren, added: "There was a fire in the roof of the cabin of the Lynx, registration XZ 247. The three crew tried unsuccessfully to put the fire out. "After transmitting a Mayday on an emergency frequency, the aircraft captain made a controlled ditching at a point near where the French trawler recovered the piece of wreckage. "The helicopter sank within one minute and it was an hour and a quarter before rescuers arrived at the scene. "We can confirm the survivors were Lieutenant Al Bucknell, Lt Philip Henry and Acting LAEM F Parker." The ditched aircraft was fitted for an anti-submarine role and was searching for "a target", understood to be a Soviet submarine, at the time of the emergency. "No parts of the Lynx have ever been recovered as far as we know until now. "I cannot say if it was fitted with weapons. I do not have that information," said the spokesman for the Scots-born Rear Admiral. The confirmation came after a winchman from another helicopter was lowered onto the Lorient-registered trawler, Albert Granet. A description of the recovered parts and a statement from the trawler captain, Patrick Lebronze, was flashed back to the Ministry of Defence at Whitehall. The Flag Officer's statement has put paid to speculation that the wreckage could explain the UFO seen plunging into the sea off the Isle of Lewis by several witnesses two years ago. [...] [End] My thanks to Ian for his assistance and some fine journalism. ~~~~~ >>>>> oo0oo <<<<< ~~~~~ 3. Nick Pope's Time-Warp. Unfortunately that can't be said for former Ministry of Defence 'UFO Desk' incumbent Nick Pope's recent comments on my research into the 'Rendlesham forest' case. In the 'weird world' column he writes for a woman's Internet magazine, 'Hot Gossip', Pope appropriately bitched in the January 1999:issue: "Researcher James Easton has done some interesting research on the Rendlesham Forest case. That said, he's been a little naughty, and anyone would think - judging from his recent Internet posts - that he was the only person ever to have investigated the case". "Easton's Internet posts are full of references to his own papers on the subject, but mysteriously fail to mention any dissenting views. I wonder why. For those who'd like some balance, check out Jenny Randles' paper Seeing the Forest for the Trees (IUR, Summer Edition)...". A consummate embarrassment for Pope is that Jenny's 'International UFO Reporter' was not only referenced, it was discussed in detail within my own paper, 'Resolving Rendlesham: New Insights and Past Claims Examined', which began: I was pleased to read the recent article "Seeing the Forest for the Trees: New Twists in the Bentwaters Case", written by Jenny Randles.[1] Jenny has researched the extraordinary 'Rendlesham forest' story since early 1981 and her latest book, 'UFO Crash Landing?', is an invaluable summary of the case history. The critical new evidence I had published earlier this year in 'Rendlesham Unravelled' was a challenge to convictions, including my own, that the case had any substance at all, let alone the purported contact with an extraterrestrial civilisation. Her public response is therefore welcome as it raises issues which need to be addressed and in doing so, the evidence presented in this document will hopefully result in further unravelling and understanding a complex series of events. [...] Reference: [1] 'Seeing the Forest for the Trees: New Twists in the Bentwaters Case', by Jenny Randles International UFO Reporter (IUR), Summer 1998, pp 16-19 & 28, 30 http://www.cufos.org/IUR_article2.html [End] Why in January 1999 was Nick Pope making accusations of such naughtiness when the very article he suggests as a countermeasure was not only fully referenced, I addressed it within 'Resolving Rendlesham', which was published in August 1998. Although he might be forgiven such poor research, a question he may care to ponder is why a not-so-hot 'Gossip' woman's magazine published such baloney when the editor, Georgina Bruni, was not only aware of the 'Resolving Rendlesham' paper I had published in August 1998 and that it encompassed Jenny's article, the said Ms Bruni had later participated in some related discussions. It leaves me speechless. Well, almost. ~~~~~ >>>>> oo0oo <<<<< ~~~~~ 4. Aliens Invade Earth to Reclaim Crop Circles. "Aliens are invading the Earth! But they aren't such bad guys after all. They are just trying to get back the crop circles they left accidentally". No, it's not Nick Pope's latest column. This is the description of a new computer game, 'Crop Circles', published by 'Zero Entertainment'. In the game's second level, you can "harvest earth bovines" (that's cows to us!) to replenish the dwindling fuel supply. Press and hold the space bar to pick up a cow with the tractor beam...". Hold on though. This isn't just a 'shoot 'em up' based on 'UFO folklore', it's a game designed for young children. A trial copy can be downloaded from 'Kids Domain', at: http://www.kidsdomain.com/down/pc/cropcircles.html Whatever happened to 'guide Winnie the Pooh through the maze to collect the honey jars'. Good news for 'ufologists' is that the game was designed for 'Age 8 and Up'! Last heard, Nick Pope was stuck on level one, looking for the entrance to an underground alien base. ~~~~~ >>>>> oo0oo <<<<< ~~~~~ 5. Report of 'UFO' Crash Near Holloman Air Force Base. >From Susan Farnsworth's 'Encounters' feature, could the following be the genuine account of a largely unknown 'UFO' incident? Susan states, "I got this story from a Staff Sargent from Holloman AFB, New Mexico": I was working the flight line at Holloman one evening. Because I was near an active runway I had to keep in contact with the tower at all times. When we were working, we would monitor the tower for a hint as to when we would be required to move out of the way of an incoming aircraft. Just prior to quitting time I picked up on a strange conversation between the tower and a C141 cargo plane. It seems the plane was just passing over Alamogordo when a craft of some type flew by nearly hitting the plane. The craft was nothing like he had ever seen before. It had no wings, but appeared to have some type of legs which must have been landing gear of somesort. There were no wheels on the legs. Just pads. It had landed just outside of town on the north side. There was a fire and lots of dust. The pilot couldn't tell if the craft had landed or crashed. I recognized the location because I been there before. It was a clearing overlooking the town about a mile from the KMart on the highway. I decided to see this for my self. I raced for my car and exited the base in a hurry. My wife was expecting me to pick her up to go out for the evening, and she was right on the way. A few minutes later we were both speeding down the highway headed for the far side of town. We reached the turnoff, and there was no signs of anyone to block the entry. We raced up the dirt road to the clearing. We had to slow down a bit due to the roughness in the road, and my station wagon was having troubles bottoming out on some of the low spots. However, we made it there in record time. We were the first on the site. The craft had taken off, but it left a lot of evidence. The clearing was nearly fifty yards across. The top of a pine tree was burned. The bottom of the tree was fine. It was if something very hot had passed over the top if it. On the far side of the clearing I found prints. They reminded me of tennis shoe prints, but these were about two feet across. It definitely looked as if the craft had landed on some type of legs which had groved pads on the bottoms of the landing gear. Several of the nearby bushes were still smouldering from the heat. I assumed it was from some kind of rocket plume. It was at this time I realized I had forgot my camera. I was kicking myself all the way back to the car. Both my wife and I decided it would be a good thing to get out of there before the local authorities arrived. We did so. Infact, we never did see anyone from the town show up at the site. The next day the place was put off limits by the military, and no one was allowed access for several weeks. We went back much later. Funny how the tree was missing, and so were the burnt bushes. The tracks were destroyed. The local news accepted the military's explanation without question. It was a target drone which had gone off course and crashed in the desert. [End] Susan's full presentation is at URL: http://members.aol.com/susanfarns/encount.html The Web site has several hand-drawn location maps and two sketches, one of which is said to be based on the pilot's descriptions (it's not clear if in fact both are claimed to be). The detailed second-hand depiction is consistent with a possible UAV, although interestingly, the 'top view' as reportedly seen by the pilot, shows a triangular-shaped object. Without knowing the date of this alleged incident, little can be added for now, however, some further enquiries have been made. If the object did leave trace evidence which covered a sizeable area and included burnt foliage, it certainly doesn't seem consistent with a UAV. This account has similarities with the 'classic' Socorro 'UFO landing' case from April 1964, when local Police officer Lonnie Zamora reportedly encountered a 'UFO' which departed leaving ground traces and "burning brush". However, I concur with those who conclude that Zamora may have witnessed a hot-air balloon - not a common sight in 1964. That he was in radio contact during the incident and in his official report mentions describing the enigmatic object to a colleague by saying, "It looks like a balloon", may have been closer to the truth than he realised. Typically, there is evidence which can be cited from both sides as to whether Zamora's 'UFO' may, or could not, have been a hot-air balloon and the results of my own ongoing quest for conclusive evidence, either way, will be published in due course. For the moment, the point is, it should be noted that any comparisons may be specious. ~~~~~ >>>>> oo0oo <<<<< ~~~~~ 6. 'UFOs', Target Drones and UAVs. On the general subject of target drones, or an Unmanned Aerial Vehicle (UAV), could one theoretical candidate, obviously dependent on the story's authenticity and dating, etc., be Sikorsky's 'CYPHER' UAV? Details can be found at URL: http://www. sikorsky.com/programs/cypher/index.html Some related photographs can be seen in the 'Robotics Image Library' of the Space and Naval Warfare Systems Center, San Diego, at URL: http://www.nosc.mil/robots/images/UAVIdx.html Particularly striking are images from UAV demonstratio ns at Ft. McClelland, AL and Ft. Benning, GA. Co-incidentally, on a recent UK TV program I caught the last minute of some footage which appeared to show a delta, or triangular-shaped, "target drone" being used for target practice by enthusiastic - to say the least - private gun owners. The drone was stated to be "remote controlled". The weapons used seemed to be a variety of machine-guns, some being truck mounted and apparently firing 'tracer bullets'; the location may have been desert terrain, I presume in the US. I'm interested in identifying the source of any such delta shaped drone - what is it, where can it be purchased, etc. Specifically, I would like to determine how common they are and for how long they've been available. Any relevant information would be appreciated. An interesting report of a 'small flying triangle' can be read at URL: http://www.ufobc.org/yukon/trianglemain.htm Entitled, 'Is Exotic Propulsion Technology Being Tested In Canada's North?', the report details a claimed sighting, "over Lake Laberge, Yukon - June 18, 1997". I documented in detail a comparative report, also from Canada, although ten years previous, and it can be seen on my Web site at: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/pulsar/jackie.htm Another detailed account is "Miniature stealth-like plane over Lake Vattern, Sweden, 20 June 1992", which Mikael Sjoberg the Webmaster of UFO-Sweden tells me is now on their Web site at the new URL: http://www.ufo.se/english/brandstorp.html Any connection between these reported sightings and 'target drones' may be unlikely, however, it's a possibility which merits investigating further. ~~~~~ >>>>> oo0oo <<<<< ~~~~~ 7. Rendlesham - Ministry of Defence Responds In the last newsletter, I wrote: "In view of all that's become clear in this case during the past 12 months and preceding charges of a 'cover-up' by the Ministry of Defence (MoD), it's hoped to have a reaction from Gaynor South, the MoD's 'UFO' spokesperson, in the next newsletter". I had sent Gaynor a copy of 'Rendlesham Unravelled', 'Resolving Rendlesham: New Insights and Past Claims Examined', and the first two issues of this newsletter, which added significant material. These publications are available on my Web site at URL: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/pulsar/ I have duly received a reply from Gaynor South, at Secretariat(Air Staff)2a1a and Gaynor writes: "The content of your letter, 'Pulsar' newsletters and 'Rendlesham' papers have been noted and placed on a Departmental file". For the first time, the MoD now have on record, copies of those original witness statements from Airman First Class John Burroughs, Airman Edward N. Cabansag, Master-Sergeant J. D. Chandler, Staff-Sergeant Jim Penniston and Fred A Buran, all of which confirm it was known and documented that an abortive two mile chase of illusive, unidentified lights led straight to a local "beacon light" landmark. The MoD presumably also now appreciates how it can be proven, with science write Ian Ridpath's recent photographic evidence most helpful, that Col. Halt's confirmed bearing for the 'UFO' he witnessed was exactly where Orfordness lighthouse stood and that he placed the lighthouse where in fact the beam from Shipwash lightship could be seen. Furthermore, they are now aware that the central 'UFO landing' accounts of Staff-Sergeant Jim Penniston can unequivocally be demonstrated to have 'grown in the telling', do not equate with what was documented by all other participants and claims that 'radiation levels' peaked at the 'landing site' are proven to have no substance whatsoever. Next time the MoD are asked to comment on the Rendlesham 'cover-up' and claims there was an 'alien landing' and 'underground alien base' at the adjoining RAF Bentwaters/RAF Woodbridge complex, they will hopefully be able to evaluate the more sensible accusations against a detailed, factual case background and respond with the aid of considerable evidence now at their disposal. Perhaps they might suggest that the questions asked of Halt and Penniston and which remain unanswered are tackled by 'alien proponents' first of all and then we can see what substance, if any, remains. ~~~~~ >>>>> oo0oo <<<<< ~~~~~ 8. Bookmarks. DELTAWEB Site sur les phenomenes aerospatiaux non identifies et leurs implications: http://www.multimania.com/deltaweb/DWfmnetsca.html English language site: http://www.multimania.com/deltaweb/DWus/DWus.html The U.F.O. archive. Located in Holland, this Web site has a large collection of video footage: http://www.xs4all.nl/~pro/umovie.htm UFO Sighting, 5:40am March 22 1996, Phoenix AZ. Concluded to be "a missile test at White Sands Missile Range. The test involved a target drone and an anti-missile missile which shot down the drone": http://trojan.neta.com/~dodson/ufo.html The decoding of ALIEN Typefaces. Nicholas Fabian's challenging competition - "If you E-Mail back a correctly decoded English text, you will receive a personal copy of the font. Note: You may require multilingual as well as crypto-analytic skills to complete this project": http://webcom.net/~nfhome/aliens.html The first ever depiction of a 'flying saucer'? I have put this on-line (all copyrights acknowledged) for those who haven't seen it and may find it interesting. It's from the front cover of 'Science Wonder Stories' and dates from 1929!: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/3310/Wonder.jpg ~~~~~ >>>>> oo0oo <<<<< ~~~~~
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 3 Re: Topic Drift From: Greg St. Pierre <StrmNut@aol.com> Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 22:07:30 EST Fwd Date: Wed, 03 Feb 1999 16:19:14 -0500 Subject: Re: Topic Drift >Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 21:09:41 +0000 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >From: Sean Jones <tedric@tedric.demon.co.uk> >Subject: Topic Drift >I think we started with a question about K Randle's last book, >but we've ended up discussing the sexual habits of the common >marmoset I think in England a marmoset might take exception to the use of the word "common", particularly in the context of "sexual habits". Lets hope none of them are on-line. Greg
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 3 Re: Gulf Sighting Report - U.S. Navy Witness From: GT McCoy <gtmccoy@harborside.com> Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 20:10:25 -0800 Fwd Date: Wed, 03 Feb 1999 16:35:07 -0500 Subject: Re: Gulf Sighting Report - U.S. Navy Witness Ahoy, mates! & Mr. Field. >From: Ben Field <ben@abcfield.force9.co.uk> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: Gulf Sighting Report - U.S. Navy Witness >Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 19:19:01 -0000 >Follows is a report BUFOD has recently received, does anybody >have any idea weather this could have been a spinning satellite? >I have tracked the REMOTE_ADDR and it tracks to a us.mil domain It may be genuine or not, I'll continue... >so it is genuine! >All the best >Ben Field >BUFOD: http://www.abcfield.force9.co.uk >RPIT: http://www.abcfield.force9.co.uk/rpit/ >===REPORT=== > >First name: Xxxxx >Surname: Xxxxx >Age: 27 >Occupation: U.S. Navy (active) >Email address: (Received) > >Day sighting took place: Sunday >Day (date): 24&25 >Month sighting took place: January >Year sighting took place: 1999 >Time sighting took place: 1900 >am/pm: PM Everthing's great up to here. >Description of area where sighting took place: Myself, a >shipmate, and one other under NVG's or Night Vision Goggles >witnessed a light inside orion's star system. Fine, no problem. >Map ref: Gulf of Aden >Did anyone else witness the sighting?: Yes >relationship of witness: Shipmates aboard ship >relationship of witness 2 : same as first above >Circumstances of the sighting/experience: We observed what >appeared to be flashing lights in the Orion star system. When Hold it, er, belay that, Orion "star system"? Excuse me but isn't Orion a Constellation? >observed under NVG's the light was stationary and pulsing from >bright to dim. There were no planes insight, but the satellites >we saw were prodominantly moving. We are Predominatly moving? Are there some (low orbit of course) that don't? >in the Gulf of Aden on >a Western Pacific Deployment for the Navy. At about the same >time we witnessed the occurence on the 24th and 25th of January >1999. I sent a message to the Chief Scientist, Dan Werthimer of >SETI and his reply was, "it must be a plane or satellite Hello? SETI! Either the Navy has a hotline to SETI (or as a flight instuctor of mine - a WW II Hellcat driver says) is this a little "Baker Sierra" (as opposed to the more modern Bravo Sierra)? >spinning really fast. Those two were taken into consideration, >but since my UFO detecting abilities are poor to yours, Quick lesson on how to detect UFOs. See unusual object, plasma ball, saucer shape, light behaving wierdly, you have detected a UFO, my friends, without the aid of aluminum foil (I'd like to go into that one later) >I don't >really know what I saw. They at SETI also said that they were >there to pick up communication. Maybe if this was a UFO, maybe >they were trying to get our attention before that sent that one >and only message to us. Just no one seems to want to believe >that may have been the case. This SETI thing gives me indigestion, do you mean to tell me that some Swabo of unknown spec. or rank, can just contact SETI and chat about the nature of the message? What does he/she/it know of the nature of the flashing lights in Orion, Could be the Klingons, getting ready to invade, for all we know. Sorry, that boat won't float. This post has almost a childish air about it - makes me wonder.... I've been around and worked with military types all my working career, as a pilot, also, I come from an old Navy family going back to the Revolitonary War - however, they fought for HRM George the III. (Kept an Auntie out of the DAR). I had an encounter with a 63' chevy truck that kept me out of the Navy, but I _know_ military people speak, this one isn't. >(Weather and Conditions) - Clear >(Weather and Conditions) - Stars >The UFO was sighted for Minutes: 20 >Was any photographic record made at the time?: No >The height the UFO was from the ground was about: in space >permision to publish report: Yes Okay, I'm not doubting the origin of the message its the messenger I doubt - GT McCoy
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 3 DISPATCH # 115 -- the weekly newsletter of From: ParaScope@AOL.COM Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 00:07:02 EST Fwd Date: Wed, 03 Feb 1999 16:40:47 -0500 Subject: DISPATCH # 115 -- the weekly newsletter of S O M E T H I N G S T R A N G E I S H A P P E N I N G 2/3/99 Quote of the Week "Fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities. Truth isn't." --Mark Twain ----------------------- Rant of the Week: �a flying craf of your own� Every week we pick the wackiest, scariest, nastiest or funniest rant from the hundreds of letters received by us here at ParaScope headquarters, and present it to you as our Rant of the Week. This week, �Infinity Mike� offers us a line on a complete database full of plans on one of those flying craft. Enjoy. "Let them have the land! Who cares, you'll never get to see how the craft work that way. Why expose them anyway? Aren't you really after plans for a flying craft of your own? I have plans for every and any. I don't sell plans. May build for someone I think can be trusted however. And if your intentions are the same as my own, I may even show you plans for more. Complete database. You will not share this with anyone wishing to expose it for idiots fighting for some lost cause." "Subjects covered: unified theory solved; why are there sets of 3 lights?; force conversion; endless free energy anywhere in space; exactly how anti gravity; and even dematerialization work; more...." ------ All rants are printed �as is,� with spelling and grammar goofs left uncorrected. Some rants may be edited for brevity or clarity, to the extent such a thing is possible. If you�ve got a rant you�d like to share, send it to pscplady@aol.com with �possible rant� in the subject line of your letter. -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ Coming Up This Week! Catch a number of great stories this week on the ParaScope web and AOL sites, including daily updates to our Conspiracy Newsline and Daily Dose features. Among the articles you'll want to check out: The Media and the Supernatural For many scientists and skeptics, distortion of facts and information in media portrayals of the paranormal and pseudoscience has reached critical proportions. Too often, mysterious forces eclipse rational explanations, if such explanations are even offered at all. But is there empirical evidence that portrayals of the paranormal really do have an influence on what people believe? Does the media have a responsibility to maintain balanced reporting? In a report from Skeptical Inquirer Electronic Digest, CSICOP's Matt Nisbet and Tom Genoni summarize the proceedings at a recent conference entitled "That's Entertainment! Hollywood, the Media and the Supernatural," hosted by CSICOP and the Council for Media Integrity. ------------------- Gary Webb Speaks on CIA/Contra/Crack Connection http://www.parascope.com/mx/articles/garywebb/garyWebbSpeaks.htm It's an issue that continues to boil beneath the surface. The CIA allowed drugs to be smuggled by its covert operatives into the United States. They KNEW about it. And they did NOTHING to stop it. But thanks to investigative journalists like Bob Parry and Gary Webb, the story got out. When Webb's "Dark Alliance" series was released on the Internet, the scandal exploded like a Molotov cocktail. But three years later, we're still fighting to get all the answers from a government that would prefer to sweep the whole thing under the rug. In January, Webb held a question-and-answer session on the CIA/contra/crack scandal, and ParaScope was there. Get a complete text transcript of the event, sound clips, photos and more in this special report, and find out what you can do to press the government for straight answers. ------------------- 1977 MKULTRA Senate Report http://www.parascope.com/ds/documentslibrary/documents/mkultrahearing/intro.ht m Our latest addition to ParaScope's Documents Library: "Project MKULTRA, the CIA's Program of Research in Behavior Modification." You can now read online the full report of the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence's June 1977 hearing on the CIA's notorious MKULTRA mind control program. Testimony, document transcripts and image scans, and a document-specific keyword search feature. You won't find this one anywhere else online. Who loves ya, baby?! ------------------- CIA's UFO Secret Secrets on the ground, secrets in the skies. The Central Intelligence Agency has had plenty of both over the years. Now a declassified CIA history report adds detail to last year's startling revelation: the government lied about early UFO reports to conceal its top secret overhead reconnaissance programs. Was the U-2 spy plane the CIA's real UFO secret? Dossier editor Jon Elliston opens the files in search of the facts. ------------------- UFO Roundup http://www.parascope.com/nb/uforoundup/index.htm UFOlogy news and sighting reports from around the world: "Chupacabra" strikes again in Puerto Rico; green fireball sighted in Honolulu; "mystery boom" rattles central Delaware; daylight disc videotaped in northern Ireland; UFO flap spreads across Italy; unknown threat puts Cassini probe in "safe mode"; lots more news. ------------------- Conspiracy Newsline http://www.parascope.com/articles/cnews/index.htm USAF airman faces court-martial for refusing Anthrax vaccination which some fear may be linked to Gulf War Syndrome; trial begins for defendants charged with murdering a disabled black man by dragging him behind a pickup truck in Jasper, Texas; Pope takes the Pepsi challenge as Vatican allows papal imagery on billboards and potato chip bags to fund visit to Mexico and the U.S.; lots more news. ...All this, and much, much more! -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ Jane, Stop This Crazy Thing! Thought you were tough enough to handle the Dispatch and now you realize you're not? Starting to think you've made a wrong turn off the info highway? Well, we're only going to go over this once, so listen up! To unsubscribe yourself from Dispatch: 1) Send e-mail to: listserv@listserv.aol.com 2) In the body of your mail, type: unsubscribe dispatch That's all there is to it! Likewise, to subscribe: 1) Send e-mail to: listserv@listserv.aol.com 2) In the body of your mail, type: subscribe dispatch ---------------------------------------- ParaScope 11288 Ventura Blvd., #904 Studio City, CA 91604 America Online -- keyword: parascope parascope@aol.com World-Wide Web -- http://www.parascope.com info@parascope.com
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 3 Re: Premature Birth & Abduction? From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net> Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 23:20:19 -0500 Fwd Date: Wed, 03 Feb 1999 16:59:24 -0500 Subject: Re: Premature Birth & Abduction? >Date: Tue, 02 Feb 1999 12:13:34 -0800 >From: Judith Dale <judithdale@earthlink.net> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: Re: Premature Birth & Abduction? >At one point, during my long years of nursing, I did work in the >field of childbirth. I can attest to the fact that babies born >under optimal conditions, are quite alert and interactive with >their environment. Indeed, there has been a mountain of research >done to determine just how alert and aware newborns are. The >data reveals that a healthy non drug affected newborn is very >alert, interacting with, and learning from his/her environment >from the moment of birth. Now, given that a newborn doesn't have >any verbal constructs, or frame of reference for his/her >experiences, any memories are laid down visually, tactilely, >auditorily, and bio chemically within the neuronal structures of >the brain. I don't think the problem is that we don't remember >what happened when we were being born, so much as, no one really >knows how to access those memories. Even older infants and very >young children have memories that we have trouble accessing, >simply because the memories are pre-verbal. I see this obstacle >constantly in the work that I do now with disturbed adolescents. >Many of them of histories of horrendous abuse in infancy and >young childhood, yet cannot access these memories verbally. >However, it is painfully clear to those of us working with these >kids, that this abuse has left much evidence of trauma reflected >in their behaviors and emotions. I don't think the issue of a >birth being premature, or by C-section would make much >difference. <more snipped> >Let's get down to brass tacks here. Why is it happening? What if >anything, do we need to do to respond? Is it a threat to our >well-being as humans? Although, I must say, I believe we are so >much of a threat to ourselves, that an "alien" threat doesn't >seem much worse to me. >Judith Dale Judith, you worried about being long-winded, but I thought your post was wonderfully humane. Some folks might get after you for not being "scientific," but there's more to life than science. Things like sensitivity, decency, and compassion are, to put it mildly, very important, and those you seem to have in spades, as well as a good eye for what goes on around you. Thanks for your comments! Greg Sandow
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 3 Re: Premature Birth & Abduction? From: Leanne Martin <leanne_martin@hotmail.com> Date: Tue, 02 Feb 1999 23:18:49 PST Fwd Date: Wed, 03 Feb 1999 17:36:23 -0500 Subject: Re: Premature Birth & Abduction? >From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: Re: Premature Birth & Abduction? >Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 22:27:33 -0500 >>From: Leanne Martin <leanne_martin@hotmail.com> >>To: updates@globalserve.net >>Subject: Premature Birth & Abduction? >>Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 18:47:30 PST >>Is any one aware of any statistical link between premature birth >>and claimants of abduction? >>Or perhaps even late and C-section births? >>Do researchers even bother to look at issues like these when >>interviewing an 'abductee'? > >Why should they? > >The C-section issue came up when Alvin Lawson suggested that >alleged abduction memories were really memories of birth. One of >the many arguments against him was that no abductees could have >been born with C-sections. (The other one, of course, was that >nobody has ever proved that anyone remembers being born.) Are you implying that people delivered by C-section have no right to celebrate their 'birthda'? <G> >But why are you asking your question? Looking at the techniques of 'abduction researchers' - do they take things purely at face value or do they dig deeper? Also, why not ask the question? Regards, Leanne ];-)
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 3 Re: On Eyewitness Testimony From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net> Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 23:31:18 -0500 Fwd Date: Wed, 03 Feb 1999 17:32:44 -0500 Subject: Re: On Eyewitness Testimony >Date: Tue, 02 Feb 1999 12:11:18 -0800 >From: Ed Stewart <ufoindex@jps.net> >To: updates@globalserve.net >Subject: On Eyewitness Testimony >Is there a lesson here to be learned by ufologists? >This article appeared on the Boston Globe, 02/01/99 >NATURE JOURNAL >You'll never believe what I saw! >By Sy Montgomery, Globe Staff, 02/01/99 >Maureen Clark was carving a ham on the morning before Christmas >when her 16-year-old nephew, Rory Grant, glanced out the kitchen >window and saw something really big moving in her back yard in >Lincoln, N.H. "What IS that?" he asked. >Some pretty impressive wildlife wanders through Clark's yard - >coyotes, bears, and the week before last, a big bull moose. >But she'd never seen anything like this: Grant estimated it was >24 inches high, 80 to 100 pounds, tawny with a long tail. It was >about 35 feet away, partly obscured by a big rock. >"We were mesmerized by it," said Clark, who is a photographer. >"I was just thinking, Wow, there is a BIG cat out in my back >yard!" She rushed to get her video camera, but by the time she >got to the window, the animal had moved away into beech saplings >and brush. >For many hours over the course of several days, eight New >Hampshire Fish and Game wildlife biologists viewed the three >seconds of Clark's videotape showing the animal. Was it a >mountain lion - an animal supposedly extinct in New Hampshire >since the turn of the century? In some frames the tail looked >striped, like a that of a house cat. In others, the ears seemed >too pointy for a cat - more like those of a coyote. >The verdict: "We can confidently say," states Fish and Game >spokesman Eric Aldrich, "that it's inconclusive." <many examples of mistaken sightings snipped> And then there's the dramatic case that unfolded last week in New Jersey. Someone thought they'd seen a tiger wandering through their town. Turns out it _was_ a tiger, and after attempts to tranquilize it failed, the animal had to be killed. Residents, meanwhile, stayed behind locked doors, waiting for the all-clear. Turned out further that there was a private tiger preserve nearby, with a hole in its fence. The owners of the preserve claimed that all their tigers were accounted for, but couldn't substantiate that because their records were in terrible shape. So some sightings of unusual animals are in fact accurate. What lesson can ufology learn from _that_? Greg Sandow
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 3 Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality From: Leanne Martin <leanne_martin@hotmail.com> Date: Tue, 02 Feb 1999 23:21:07 PST Fwd Date: Wed, 03 Feb 1999 17:38:59 -0500 Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 10:38:48 -0600 (CST) >From: Brian Cuthbertson <brianc@freeside.fc.net> >To: updates@globalserve.net >Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >>Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 14:05:54 -0600 (CST) >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >>From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net> >>Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net> >>>Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >>>Date: Mon, 01 Feb 99 12:41:36 PST >>It's a perfectly serious question. > >>>How many people in other traumatic situations -- combat, >>>assault, rape, and the like -- volunteer the information that >>>while being terrorized and traumatized they accidentally >>>defecated or urinated? >>>Jerry Clark >>I was simply curious as to why it seems to be conspicuous by its >>absence in abduction accounts. I'd think being abducted would >>scare the crap out of me! >One minor note on this. As I recall, one fairly consistent item >in abduction reports is that abductees seldom remember actually >entering a craft during an abduction. Instead, they tend to >remember the initial abduction, and then memory jumps to being >on a table or something like that. One of the books I read even >had a name for this, the "missing door" syndrome or something >similar. >So, wild speculation here: maybe one of the things that happens >during that unremembered entry period is that the subject reacts >"appropriately" (as so well described above) and is cleaned up >by his/her hosts. How thoughtful of them :-) >Just a random thought. Brian, Do they dry clean their knickers as well? Regards, Leanne ];-)
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 3 Re: FOIA on SOM 1-01 From: Scott Hale <sh5259a@american.edu> Date: Wed, 03 Feb 1999 03:12:37 -0500 Fwd Date: Wed, 03 Feb 1999 17:41:14 -0500 Subject: Re: FOIA on SOM 1-01 >Date: Tue, 02 Feb 1999 13:18:45 -0800 >From: Jan Aldrich <jan@cyberzone.net ()> >To: updates@globalserve.net >Subject: FOIA on SOM 1-01 >As indicated in the posting from Bill Hamilton and the original >"Authentication II" on Joe Firmage's site, the owner and Top >Secret Control Number of SOM 1-01 has been identified. Jan, I checked on my adobe pdf copy of the SOM document and found the page you mentioned, but could not read any specific control number. I thought several years ago that perhaps the document had been updated to include the sattelite references. Now we know the document had been supposedly updated, but I cant tell if the specific page had been changed. I found a web page for the Kirtland AFB FOIA office. If nobody else has or will file a request for the document, I would be glad to. The page is http://www.kirtland.af.mil/foia.htm Best, Scott Hale
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 3 Re: Topic Drift From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net> Date: Wed, 03 Feb 1999 01:40:14 -0800 Fwd Date: Wed, 03 Feb 1999 17:55:44 -0500 Subject: Re: Topic Drift >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >From: Sean Jones <tedric@tedric.demon.co.uk> >Subject: Topic Drift * >topic drift /n./ Term used on GEnie, use.net and other >electronic fora to describe the tendency of a thread to drift >away from the original subject of discussion (and thus, from the >Subject: header of the originating message), or the results of >that tendency. Often used in gentle reminders that the >discussion has strayed off any useful track,i.e. "I think we >started with a question about K Randle's last book, but we've >ended up discussing the sexual habits of the common marmoset. >Now _that's_ topic drift!" >-- >[Nice one, Sean.--ebk <VBG>] Dear Sean, EBK and list: I could not help but note "topic drift" on any number of threads on various email lists. I suppose it is inevitable. There's little one can do about it besides complain. Maybe the drift serves some good purpose at times, even if it is unintentional. So what I do? If I feel an urge to respond to an posting which had drifted far from the originally thread, I simply change the SUBJECT line to match! [Larry also drops header lines too --ebk*] All the more so, if I am causing the drift myself, as in this pseudo sentence which has no subject or predicate either! Best wishes - Larry Hatch = = = =
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 3 Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 03:18:52 -0500 Fwd Date: Wed, 03 Feb 1999 17:51:48 -0500 Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 15:33:56 -0500 >From: Peter Brookesmith Mendoza <DarkSecretPB@compuserve.com> >Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >>Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 16:12:36 -0500 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >>From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> >>Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >First, John, sorry I misconstrued the sequence of events in your >"alien script" episode. However the brain here is more in >Perkins diesel mode than RR supercharged Merlin, and I for one >am not clear even now what you consciously remembered and what >was recalled under hypnosis. I'd be delighted if you'd >elaborate, and no doubt others would find the story intriguing >too. Please excuse length of this post. One night in 1976 my wife and I had retired for the night. It was about 11:30pm or thereabouts because I had work in the morning and Margie was up early with our kids. Margie fell asleep quickly (I heard her snoring! <G>) and I was laying there waiting for sleep to come. The room became flooded with light. I opened my eyes and as I lay there it looked like the sun had come up and was blasting through the window behind me. The light became so intense that it began to wash out all visual detail in a brilliant haze. I could not move. An electrical tingling began in my feet and rose up my body. The last thing I recall was struggling to move and not being able to. By this time, (only a minute or so had passed since the onset of this event) I was thoroughly scared half to death and I had been trying to scream but couldn't. The next thing that happened seemed like a 'vivid nightmare' and that is precisely how I categorized it upon awakening. In spite of a nosebleed that was directly related to what I recalled of the event. This is what I recall of the "nightmare." I am laying down on something cold and hard. The "atmosphere" is brightly lit and hazy. It's like the air itself is glowing a bright milky white. I look over to my left and out of the "mist" appears the face of a giant praying mantis. (Only this one had no antennae and a very thin humanoid body. Two long thin arms that it kept folded in front just like a mantis, and two thin legs. Couldn't see its feet.) The sight of this thing only served to frighten me. But I "spoke to it" asking it, "What are you going to do now?" It was holding a long metallic needle/probe. It -glided- (not walk) over to me and as "someone" held my head from behind me it inserted that thing into my right nostril. I closed my eyes and my whole body tensed. I felt -pressure- inside my head right between my eyebrows as the 'big bug' pushed hard to insert the thing deeper. The next thing I hear, (now I heard this audibly. It is one of the clearest of the details I remember of this whole thing and the one detail that bothered me the most) is a dull crunching sound inside my head like bone being mashed. As the thing penetrated into my head a blinding white flash of light went off inside my head. My very next recollection is of being led (by a tiny figure) into a room. The room was all metal. Like dull aluminum. There was only a tiny pedestal in the very center which came right out of the floor. A "Grey" was seated there facing me as I entered. We didn't go over to him though. Instead I was turned toward my left, and I was taken to one end of the room. In front of the wall was suspended a curved screen. It was all white. When I got immediately in front of it a black on white symbol appeared. In my head I heard someone tell me to, "Study and remember." This was repeated three times. I put my nose almost up against the screen and began to trace the outline of the thing with my nose just inches away from it. (Just as a side note: I did what I was told without second thought or question. I find that frightening.) Within the black outline of this "symbol" was three "letters/characters" of a kind I had never seen before. I don't know how long I gazed at the thing, but I did study it carefully. My next recollection is the alarm going off. I sat up in bed feeling absolutely euphoric. As if the world and all it contained was wonderful and beautiful. I got up to look for a pencil and paper so that I could draw the "logo." (Which I'm not in the habit of doing. I never "record" dream stuff) When I passed the mirror in the bedroom I noticed the nosebleed and instantly recalled the "Nose operation" of the night before. It didn't even phase me. I was so elated that all I could think of was drawing that 'logo.' I cleaned off my face, got a pencil and paper and that's how Margie found me that morning, sitting at the kitchen table drawing. I couldn't concentrate at work for several days. The whole thing was replaying itself over and over in my head. At times it became so bad that I almost clocked out and went home. It was like an obsession. It was all that I could think about. It gradually wore off, and the sense of elation and the preoccupation with the event just drifted away. Although I -have never forgotten a single detail- of it since. When Budd and I conducted an exploration using hypnosis, the only stuff that was added was; After I saw the light and became paralyzed, a half dozen "greys" came floating into the room from the wall behind me (they weren't walking. They floated in in a neat row, like little soldiers and arrayed themselves around our bed.) I was lifted and taken out of the house (through the back) and taken into a large sphere of light. The rest with the addition of one or two details is just as I recalled it originally. The way it ended was, I was taken from that room that contained the screen I was "talked to" and then returned to my home and bed. Where I was "tucked in" as if I was a small child! >Especially interesting would be to know what you were doing >before the event, and whether there was a missing time episode... >in other words, what you did and didn't consciously recall and >how there was a gap that bore investigation under hypnosis. Like I said in my original Peter, I didn't recall how it started, (what happened after I saw the light and the paralysis set in) or how it ended, (how I got from in front of the 'screen' back to my bed.) That, and only that, is what was "added" by hypnosis. The rest was/had been in my head since it happened. I couldn't get it out of my head for the longest time. I struggled to understand what it meant. The first two or three days afterwards it was difficult for me to think of or concentrate on little else. >Oh, and did you keep, and do you still have, your original >sketch of the glyphs from 1976, to compare with what you >produced from the hypnotic session? Yes I do, and it does, it is the same stroke for stroke. The only difference is; in the original I had drawn them uniformly straight up and down. (Neat, like print) In the version I did for Budd they are leaning more, angled a bit. But the characters themselves are the same. They weren't that tough to reproduce. They are simple structures and easy to draw. >John also remarked: >>Again, all they served to do was to 'fill in' rather >>(small) gaps in my original recollection. You and others >>always make it sound as if the majority (if not the whole) >>of our accounts are derived from hypnosis. It just isn't a >>fair or accurate representation. >Nor is that above! There are many, many cases of alleged >abduction that are hypnotically "retrieved" on the basis of no >more than a chunk of "missing time", for example. You've told me >of two of your own experiences in which aliens figured only >under hypnosis - 1979, 62nd St, and the motel-room "Castilian >speakers" one. My account of the former makes plain the >difference between what is consciously recalled and what's >emerged from hypnosis. You conveniently leave out the fact that the 1979 event began with a very close up UFO sighting over that building I took you to. When the 'missing time' began I was running for my life in terror from that thing I saw on my corner. But yes, the "alien" part only came out during hypnosis. I am always very careful to separate the two when I tell it. The "Castilian speakers" was hypnosis too. But again, based on conscious recollection of a portion of the event. Peter, when Budd does hypnosis it isn't like a "fishing expedition" where you blindly go in looking to see what may be swimming around in there. The sessions were focused on very specific events that I recalled consciously. In most, the salient details of what happened were already there in my head. They revolved around 'UFO sightings' and some stuff that happened at home and on the road. >The usual figure bandied about is that one in three abduction >accounts are offered from conscious recollection. I suspect this >figure--or factoid--derives ultimately from Bullard's 1987 >catalogue created for "Measure of a Mystery". I wager that a >similar herculean labor today would find the proportion has >shifted in favor of hypnotically acquired accounts--my dollar to >your dollar, I'm a cheerful loser--and that the shift begins >after 1988, post "Intruders" and post "Communion". Aye mate, you're probably right about that although I question the validity 'statistic' that you are quoting unless I can see the study it is based on. I haven't read Bullards book so I'll take you at your word that it's one in three. >Plainly hypnosis can't take _all_ the blame for abduction >accounts, and I've absolutely never claimed it can. Indeed the >real challenge to anyone who'd argue that abduction stories are >not literally true is to explain the ones that are consciously >recalled. Which is not an impossible task, if a large one. Yes, a -large one.- Which is why I've spent the last six years asking for a full investigation by independent analysts/experts. (Medical/psychological/and any other fields of expertise that can be recruited!) >Nonetheless. When the most vocal, and certainly most >widely-read, proponents of the reality of abduction--Hopkins, >Mack, Jacobs, Sprinkle, B_y!?n, Fowler--_all_ use hypnosis >freely, and claim that it's indispensible, and base their most >celebratedly outlandish cases on it, and furthermore produce a >lot of spurious logic and transparent sophistry to avoid dealing >with the objection that its potential pitfalls far outweigh its >potential merits, and furthermore _don't_ tell us sometimes >highly salient facts about their subjects that would put the >hypnotic material in a very different light than the one they >shine on it, then they deserve all the kicking they get. No. they don't deserve to be "kicked" and yes, hypnosis is way overused and emphasized. We've discussed this privately before. We both agree that what is needed is a thorough and careful examination of this whole phenomenon. >Four of the above-named are demonstrably intellectually >dishonest at worst and self-deceiving at best. If some clown now >complains from their cave or wormhole that skeptics can be less >than perfect too, that is as it may be; but it does not donate >any integrity, objectivity or self-knowledge to the mountebanks. >Rant over. Deep breath. Rant noted. >John then went on to comment on my, er, Jungian notion--not--of >symbols that arise in trance (-like) states: >>Also, if this is >>"common" or "archetypal" material, why isn't it present in the >>"cultural/artistic" offerings available either in a gallery or >>archaeology museum? If it was truly 'common' we'd all be >>familiar with the glyphs from new or ancient drawings/art >>produced by men and women who go out of their way sometimes to >>find and reproduce (from within themselves) such material. The >>conscious and the subconscious are the breeding grounds of art. >>Yet I had never seen anything like this 'writing' before the >>event in 1976. And, I'm pretty sure that (we) haven't discovered >>-for the first time in human history- a set of "archetypal >>symbols" that are 'common' to all. >Er--may I suggest more thorough research? Note, I did say trance >or trance-like states, and I didn't have Jung's collective >unconscious in mind - just common brain wiring. Oops, misread on my part! >Not everyone is >familiar with those states, and our society seems particularly >averse to encouraging them. (Some would go from there to suggest >that this lack of familiarity is one reason such experiences are >now transmuted into abduction accounts, but I don't want to >debate that here.) Other societies have been more generous >toward their immanent dream-makers. The San people of the >Kalahari ("Bushmen" to unreconstructed colonialists like me) are >one instance that come to mind of people verifiably >incorporating trance material into their art. There are others, >lost to my memory off hand, and there is a mass of >"archaeological" material that certainly bears a relation to >those "alien glyphs" I've seen, and that very probably derives >from trance material, given what we know about their producers' >parallel interest in hallucinogens, etc. I know what you're referring to Peter and I don't recall ever seeing anything quite like what I (and the others) drew. If you can point me to some examples I will be glad to give em a look see and report to you whether there is any similarity. I'm only looking for honest answers Brother Rat not to propagate personal belief. >As I said, my idea is testable: you _very carefully_ hypnotize a >control group and see what comes out. Personally I wish I had >seen more samples of the "alien script" for myself, to judge just >how similar they are. I suppose you will get the opportunity when Mr. Appelle publishes. (If he publishes!) >Even more interesting would be to discover >that someone besides Hopkins had had subjects produce scripts >just like those in his collection. I've been curious about that myself! Maybe Greg can ask to look at anything David may have in that category because he has already seen what Budd has. Greg will be able to tell if there are any (major) variations/deviations between them. >It would be a cat among >pigeons to find that e.g. Dr 8o!la_ also had a whole three dozen >alien scripts all alike but totally dissimilar from the Hopkins >Collection. Aaaaiiiieee! Yes it would indeed. Although what it mean to you if several of them turned out to be identical? >>Who >>knows, one night while chasing the foals you may encounter >>something which will defy explanation for you too. > >Well, I've always said they're welcome to come and try. No skin >off my nose. And it would certainly add to my knowledge of the >subject. I hope aliens don't annoy horses, though, or at least >that they don't bruise easily! (And even more I hope that the >damn' horse doesn't hoof me instead of them, sod it.) Don't turn your back on them, and if you drop something don't bend over to pick it up! <G> Warm regards, John Velez ________________________________________________ jvif@spacelab.net INTRUDERS FOUNDATION/ABDUCTION INFORMATION CENTER http://www.if-aic.com "Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind." ________________________________________________
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 3 Dr. Richard Haines' New CE-5 Book From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@JPS.NET> Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 02:18:29 -0800 Fwd Date: Wed, 03 Feb 1999 18:07:10 -0500 Subject: Dr. Richard Haines' New CE-5 Book Dear list members: An excellent new book is just now coming out, and I simply must tell you about it. I refer to 'CE-5 Close Encounters of the Fifth Kind' by Dr. Richard F. Haines Ph.D. This is a massive 435 page study of 242 CE-5 cases, which Haines defines as those in which the UFO _responds_ to some sort of human initiated signal or behavior. Each case is clearly numbered with an unambiguous date, time and location, with references and cross- references. If only everyone could do that! But, but this is much more than a weighty "theme" catalog. Haines broaches questions such as: * How aliens might communicate. * The validity of eyewitness' accounts. * Characterizing alien behavior. * Why aliens should respond to us at all. I suppose having an early copy, signed by the author gives me some bragging rights, but I must sincerely and strongly recommend CE-5 to anyone interested in this fascinating facet of the UFO puzzle. Perhaps Mark Rodeghier said it best in his forward to Part One: " ... I have no doubt that this work will become the standard by which we study the behavior of the UFO phenomenon. " Haines informs me that the book will be appearing in major chain booksellers in a matter of days. Look for the large blue book: CE-5 Close Encounters of the Fifth Kind; Sourcebooks, Naperville, IL 1998/9; ISBN 1-57071-427-4. $24.95 US. By all means ignore the idiotic almond eyed blue alien face on the cover, an embarrassment which the publisher must have insisted upon! Best wishes - Larry Hatch
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 3 CUFORG Web Site Updated From: Ian Darlington - CUFORG <cuforg@interweb-design.co.uk> Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 11:46:08 -0000 Fwd Date: Wed, 03 Feb 1999 18:26:30 -0500 Subject: CUFORG Web Site Updated Dear List, The Cornwall UFO Research Group Web site has undergone a further update; we've now added more articles and a sightings archive available for download as a text file. Also added: a link to the Group's appearance on the Jeff Rense 'Sightings' show last year; details of how to obtain the recently completed database and statistical analysis of sightings so far received since the Group began; large links page to other UFO and related sites. http://www.interweb-design.co.uk/cuforg/ Regards, Ian Darlington. Editor/Webmaster 'Skywatchers'. Cornwall UFO Research Group http://www.interweb-design.co.uk/cuforg mailto:cuforg@interweb-design.co.uk ICQ 12387110
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 3 Media Alert - Rods TLC on Tonight From: Terry Blanton <commengr@bellsouth.net> Date: Wed, 03 Feb 1999 11:23:36 -0500 Fwd Date: Wed, 03 Feb 1999 18:55:41 -0500 Subject: Media Alert - Rods TLC on Tonight "Strange Science" is scheduled to air a piece on the 'Rods' on The Learning Channel tonight (2/3/99) at 10:00 pm EST. Check your local listings. More information on the subject is available at: http://www.roswellrods.com Terry -- Copyright of my DNA is retained and may not be replicated in whole or in part without expressed written permission.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 3 Issue #3 of Greenwood's UHR On-line From: Jim Klotz <jimklotz@foxinternet.net> Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 09:04:44 -0800 Fwd Date: Wed, 03 Feb 1999 19:21:26 -0500 Subject: Issue #3 of Greenwood's UHR On-line Please post this information of interest to listmembers: Just letting you all know that, by special arrangement with Barry Greenwood, the latest issue of Barry's U.F.O. Historical Revue (UHR) (Issue #3, "Majestic-12 Follies Returns") has been posted on CUFON. This special arrangement to post this issue sooner than the 30 days we usually wait before posting UHR issues holds for this one important issue only. Select the issue you want to view from the UHR Index Page at: http://www.cufon.org/uhr/uhrndx.htm UFO HISTORICAL REVUE appears on the CUFON web site by exclusive arrangement with Barry Greenwood.. CUFON makes this publication available in order to archive it and to make it available electronically, NOT to replace in any way subscriptions to UHR. Therefore, we urge all readers to subscribe to UHR. Write to: UHR, PO Box 176, Stoneham MA 02180, USA. Within the United States, subscriptions are $15.00 per year, $20.00 (US Dollars) outside the US. Thank you, * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Jim Klotz [CUFON SYSOP] I put a $dollar in the change machine.... jimklotz@foxinternet.net But nothing changed! http://www.cufon.org * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 3 Re: Apocalypse Pretty Soon From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com> Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 12:08:21 -0500 Fwd Date: Wed, 03 Feb 1999 19:26:00 -0500 Subject: Re: Apocalypse Pretty Soon >Date: Tue, 02 Feb 1999 14:18:35 -0600 >From: Alfred Lehmberg <lehmberg@snowhill.com> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: Re: Apocalypse Pretty Soon >>Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 22:14:03 -0500 >>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com> >>Subject: UFO UpDate: Re: Apocalypse Pretty Soon >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >>I'm going to have to change the name of my UFO/FBI book to >>something more attuned with the times, such as> >>'Almost Apocalypse' >>or <snip> >>'The Apocalypso - A Dance, Starring Hairy Banana' >"Ti-pocalypse" or "Apocalypse Park" have nice rings -- get Bob >Newhart to play Dr. Maccabee in the film version... <g>. I will definitely take your recommendation into consideration. And that brings up a new name possibiltiy: Apocaland
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 3 Re: Open Letter: MJ-12 & Dr. Wood From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com> Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 12:08:59 -0500 Fwd Date: Wed, 03 Feb 1999 19:53:57 -0500 Subject: Re: Open Letter: MJ-12 & Dr. Wood >From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@get2net.dk> >To: updates@globalserve.net >Subject: Open Letter: MJ-12 & Dr. Wood >Date: Tue, 02 Feb 1999 03:39:24 GMT >Source: "alt.ufo.reports". >Stig *** >From: "Sid Fiber" <dataVoid@hotmail.com> >Newsgroups: alt.paranet.ufo,alt.ufo.reports >Subject: Open Letter: MJ12 & Dr. Wood >Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 16:49:58 -0800 >(Background: This is an open letter to Dr. Bob Wood and his son >Ryan Wood who are attempting to authenticate the validity of the >MJ-12. These documents allegedly document the US government's >efforts to conceal the discovery of extraterrestrial beings and >crafts during the 1940s.) >Dear Dr. Wood--> >If Truman, Bush, Einstein, and others authored the Majestic 12 >documents, then the methods of forensic-linguistics will >conclusively prove it. As interesting as this idea might be, the application of the Foster technique may come up with a "false positive". This is because we already have a few of the Cooper/Cantwheel documents (which Wood and Wood are analyzing) which are clearly doctored original documents. That is, you take an original document which is in the style of a particulal person and then you change a few words...just enough to change the meaning or context of the document so that it fits the new meaning or context.>In this case, take a real document and change some words to make it fit the MJ-12/flying saucer/bodies etc., context.>Then a linguistic analysis would probably indicate that the document was genuine. Of course, if there was too much alteration, then the analysis could well show it to be false. The result is: if the analysis shows it to be true, the analysis MIGHT be correct...and it might not; if the analysis shows it to be false, then it very probably is false.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 3 Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net> Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 12:16:02 -0500 Fwd Date: Wed, 03 Feb 1999 20:06:18 -0500 Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 15:33:56 -0500 >From: Peter Brookesmith Mendoza <DarkSecretPB@compuserve.com> >Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Nonetheless. When the most vocal, and certainly most >widely-read, proponents of the reality of abduction--Hopkins, >Mack, Jacobs, Sprinkle, B_y!?n, Fowler--_all_ use hypnosis >freely, and claim that it's indispensible, and base their most >celebratedly outlandish cases on it, and furthermore produce a >lot of spurious logic and transparent sophistry to avoid dealing >with the objection that its potential pitfalls far outweigh its >potential merits, and furthermore _don't_ tell us sometimes >highly salient facts about their subjects that would put the >hypnotic material in a very different light than the one they >shine on it, then they deserve all the kicking they get. >Four of the above-named are demonstrably intellectually >dishonest at worst and self-deceiving at best. If some clown now >complains from their cave or wormhole that skeptics can be less >than perfect too, that is as it may be; but it does not donate >any integrity, objectivity or self-knowledge to the mountebanks. >Rant over. Deep breath. Take a _very_deep breath, Peter, my friend, and now tell us where you draw the line between intellectual dishonesty and the rather less serious crime of merely disagreeing with you. I'd fault the people you cite -- and have faulted them in print, in an essay upcoming in the next issue of Dennis Stacy's The Anomalist -- for not stating the objections to hypnosis currently found in psychological literature. (Except John Mack, who addressed these problems in the paperback edition of his abduction book, though, as I also said in my essay, he should have done so in the first edition.) On the other hand, you're now overstating the unanimity of objections to hypnosis among psychological professionals, failing to note the context-specific nature of the debate (it's an understandable reaction to flagrant misuse of hypnosis by therapists looking for sexual abuse), and generally bending things your way. Which of course is your right. But if we're to cry "intellectual dishonesty" every time a polemicist (or even a milder advocate of any position) shapes the universe to fit his or her views, hardly any of us would remain unscathed. You yourself knew exactly what conclusion you'd come to when you began work on your book, and repeatedly, here on UpDates and elsewhere, have (a) favored lines of inquiry that would support your conclusions, avoiding some that might not, and (b) aimed your critical artillery at pro-abduction arguments, while giving some of those on the other side a free pass. Which _again_ is your right. Let me once again make a point that I've made before. If we read the New York Review of Books (or, I'm sure, other publications in which intellectuals address each others' work), we'll find the world's top scholars and academics strongly disagreeing with each other, pointing out supposed holes in each others' work, and suggesting that their intellectual opponents have made factual and logical errors. They also suggest, just as Peter does, that their opponents have in effect loaded the dice, paying attention only to the facts and arguments that support their own side. They do this, however, without accusing each other of intellectual dishonesty. Your rant, Peter, is excessive, to put it mildly, and exposes you -- and nearly any strong advocate of a controversial position in any field -- to the same ugly charges you're hurling at your opponents. Greg Sandow (who doesn't think his own abduction writing is as objective as Eddie Bullard's, or Stuart Appelle's)
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 3 UPN Thursday - Drama On Roswell Crash From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@get2net.dk> Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 19:01:58 +0100 (MET) Fwd Date: Wed, 03 Feb 1999 20:19:47 -0500 Subject: UPN Thursday - Drama On Roswell Crash UPN Airs Drama On Roswell Crash - Thursday The title suggests that this is just another sensationalistic rehash, but still. Source: Star-Telegram, http://www.star-telegram.com:80/news/doc/1047/1:ENTNEWS33/1:ENTNEWS33020299.= html Stig *** Updated: Tuesday, Feb. 2, 1999 at 11:51 CST Networks pour on miniseries, specials for February 'sweeps' By Lynn Elber AP Television Writer *** LOS ANGELES -- What do Lauren Bacall, the 1960s, alien invaders and Winnie-the-Pooh have in common? They're part of the fierce February "sweeps" competition for television viewers and ratings. Big ratings mean bigger advertising bucks for TV stations, and the networks do their best to accommodate with specials, movies and, for a change, consecutive new episodes of sitcoms and dramas. The Feb. 4 - March 3 bonanza may not be enough to banish the winter chill, but it warms our heart when television goes out of its way for us. Here are highlights (all times EST): MOVIES AND MINIS: -- "Roswell: The Aliens Attack," a drama based on speculation that a crash site at Roswell, N.M., is linked to UFOs; 8 p.m. Thursday, Feb. 4, UPN. <snip> Distributed by The Associated Press (AP) =A9 1999 Star-Telegram
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 3 Space Mirror To Light Up Europe & North Africa From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@get2net.dk> Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 19:15:48 +0100 (MET) Fwd Date: Wed, 03 Feb 1999 20:23:06 -0500 Subject: Space Mirror To Light Up Europe & North Africa Source: Arizona Daily Star, http://www.azstarnet.com/public/dnews/080-3693.html The link to the comprehensive "Sky And Telescope" article is preceded by an asterisk. Stig *** Wednesday, 3 February 1999 Russian space mirror to light up the world [Thursday] Scripps-Howard News Service *** A light as much as 10 times brighter than a full moon will be beamed down on a swath of Europe and North America tomorrow evening as Russian cosmonauts deploy a 100-foot-wide space mirror. The device, called the Znamya (Banner) 2.5 space mirror, will be fanned out on a metal frame near the Mir space station for about 14 hours as the spacecraft orbits 225 miles above Earth. The experiment, conceived by Russian engineers who hope to one day shorten the long winter nights of their country's far northern cities, will involve bouncing sunlight off the reflector onto ground targets from Kazakhstan to Devil's Lake, N.D. (The reflection will not be visible from Tucson.) If successful in keeping the beam pointed at Earth using remote controls, the cosmonauts could light up a track three to four miles wide for several seconds to several minutes at a time. Originally slated for a test last year, the Znamya experiment was put off due to money woes afflicting the Russian Space Agency. It was finally launched as part of a re-supply mission to the space station last October. To observers under clear skies on the ground near the track, the two spacecraft should appear as bright double stars. "Most people don't realize you can see orbiting satellites from the ground," said J. Kelly Beatty, senior editor of Sky and Telescope magazine, which has been closely following the mission. "Most are quite faint and go unnoticed, but this one could get so bright it will be impossible to miss. Those who aren't expecting it may think they've spotted a UFO." For more information about the *Znamya Mirror, including possible locations for viewing the test reflection, visit Sky and Telescope magazine
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 3 Re: 'Apocalypse Pretty Soon' From: Alex Heard <aheard@wired.com> Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 10:37:12 -0800 Fwd Date: Wed, 03 Feb 1999 20:28:49 -0500 Subject: Re: 'Apocalypse Pretty Soon' >From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com> >Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 16:48:15 EST >To: updates@globalserve.net >Subject: Re: 'Apocalypse Pretty Soon' >> From: Mark Cashman <mcashman@ix.netcom.com> >>Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 10:57:16 -0500 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >>Subject: Re: 'Apocalypse Pretty Soon' >>Mr Heard - >>The last thing I would find "entertaining" is more attention >>paid to these loonies. <snip> >Dear Mr. Cashman; >I am incensed, appalled, that you would malign Mr. Heard because >he takes these matters, these well respected teachers and >researchers so seriously, that he gives them the attention they >so faithfully deserve. Greer and Unarius are the stall warts of >our science. >Dear Got in Himmel, Cash.... next thing you'll be denigrating >our beloved Dr. Gesundt. >Is nothing sacred? Both of you guys might want to read my book before you continue opining; I know I asked for it by spouting off about my book, uninvited, on your forum, but in all honesty, you don't know what you're talking about. I take Greer and Unarius "seriously" only as examples of how millennial beliefs play out in real life. Not as noteworthy "ufologists." My article about Greer from Outside magazine is availble on the web if you don't want to buy the book. Thanks, Heard Please check out my Web site: http://www.apocalypseprettysoon.com Apocalypse Pretty Soon, the book, hits stores in February 1999.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 3 Russian Space Mirror Experiment Schedule From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@get2net.dk> Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 20:40:48 +0100 (MET) Fwd Date: Wed, 03 Feb 1999 20:44:33 -0500 Subject: Russian Space Mirror Experiment Schedule Source: Sky And Telescope http://www.skypub.com/news/special/znamya.html Stig *** Up in the Sky! It's a Bird, It's a Plane, It's Znamya! By J. Kelly Beatty ** Above: When deployed in 1993, Znamya 2's eight reflective panels did not join along their edges as planned. The resulting gaps halved the amount of sunlight reflected onto the darkened Earth below. The object in the center is the Progress-M 15 spacecraft, which carried the experiment into orbit. Courtesy *Energia Ltd. Six years ago Russian space officials conducted an orbital test of a 20-meter-wide (65-ft) reflector called Znamya, the Russian word for banner. The spinning space mirror directed a 4-km-wide (2=BD-mile) spot of reflected sunlight along a swath of Europe that lay in predawn darkness. Although much of the target area was blanketed by clouds, a few observers reported seeing a 1-second-long flash nearly as bright as the full Moon. [Map: Left: Thin yellow lines show the path of Mir over the Earth during the 16-hour test of Znamya 2.5 on February 4th. Heavy yellow lines indicate where the reflector's light beam might be directed during the test. Courtesy of Space Regatta Consortium. (Click on image for larger view).] Buoyed by this success, the Russians will attempt to deploy another giant reflector, dubbed Znamya 2.5, on February 4th. With a diameter of 25 meters, this version incorporates design improvements that should spread the aluminized 5-micron-thick plastic sheet more evenly when it is spun out at 1=BD revolutions per second. Furthermore, Mir cosmonauts Gennady Padalka and Sergei Avdeyev will orient the reflector by remote control, keeping it trained on ground targets for one or two minutes at a time. If all this works as planned, during the 16-hour test several cities in North America and Europe could find themselves briefly bathed in artificial light 5-10 times brighter than the full Moon in the hours after sundown. Observers far outside Znamya 2.5's directed beam will see the spacecraft outshining virtually every star as it coasts across the sky in an orbit 360 km (225 miles) high. Znamya Timetable: 4 February 1999 ( * =3D 5 February) (courtesy Space Regatta Consortium) Moscow time..UT(GMT)..Local time..Event 13:04........10:04................Progress M-40 undocks from Mir 14:34........11:34................Znamya 2.5 reflector deploys 16:12........13:12....18:12.......beam on Karaganda, Kazakhstan 17:45........14:45....17:45.......beam on Saratov, Russia 19:20........16:20....19:20.......beam on Poltava, Ukraine 20:54........17:54....18:54.......beam on Liege, Belgium 20:56........17:56....18:56.......beam on Frankfurt, Germany 2:54*.......23:54....17:54.......beam on Winnipeg, Manitoba 2:56*........23:56....18:56.......beam on Quebec City, Quebec 4:30*........01:30*...18:30.......beam on Calgary, Alberta 4:32*........01:32*...19:32.......beam on Devil's Lake, North Dakota 5:13*........02:13*...............Test ends, reflector is released This cosmic klieg light is the brainchild of the Space Regatta Consortium (SRC), a partnership involving seven Russian aerospace management and engineering organizations. Vladimir Syromyatnikov, SRC's general director, hopes the Znamya test will lead to whole constellations of space mirrors orbiting 1,500 to 4,500 km (1,000 to 3,000 mi) up. With a diameter of 200 meters (650 feet), each satellite could beam down a disk of light as wide as a city and 100 times the Moon's brightness. Syromyatnikov imagines such spacecraft being used to illuminate high-latitude regions of Earth in the hours after sunset or before sunrise, ostensibly to improve the spirits and productivity of those forced to endure long, dark winters. The orbiting beacons might also provide emergency lighting for cities during disasters. Syromyatnikov even envisions using SRC's solar-sail technology to propel interplanetary spacecraft using sunlight alone or to power orbiting observatories. However, the prospect of an armada of giant space mirrors hardly comes as a delight to astronomers. "We're having enough trouble battling light sources on the ground," contends Daniel W. E. Green (Harvard-Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics). "To have to deal with sources from the sky is very disheartening." Some preemptive action has already been taken by radio astronomer Woodruff T. Sullivan (University of Washington). In his role as president of the International Astronomical Union (IAU) commission that deals with light pollution, Sullivan is trying to persuade the United Nations to recognize the night sky as an important part of Earth's environment and to protect it from encroachment by artificial satellites. All this negative reaction is not lost on SRC officials. According to Chris Faranetta, a spokesman for SRC partner Energia Ltd., the consortium has pledged to conduct a full environmental-impact assessment prior to full-scale development. Faranetta also points out that few observatories exist in the far-northern regions that the SRC hopes to illuminate. An open letter to astronomers on SRC's Web site http://src.space.ru offers the hope that these "extremist experiments" will someday provide scientists with "unique tools for real exploration of the farthest corners of the universe." =AE =A9 1999 Sky Publishing Corp. All rights reserved. Please read our *copyright and permissions policy.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 3 Re: RAMS - Cleanup The Corners From: Robert A.M. Stephens <sti3818@montana.com> Date: Wed, 03 Feb 1999 13:02:41 +0000 Fwd Date: Wed, 03 Feb 1999 20:47:51 -0500 Subject: Re: RAMS - Cleanup The Corners >Date: Tue, 02 Feb 1999 19:26:58 -0600 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >From: Michael Christol <mchristo@mindspring.com> >Subject: Re: RAMS - Cleanup The Corners >>Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 16:07:05 +0000 >>From: Robert A. M. Stephens <sti3818@montana.com> >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >>Subject: Re: RAMS - Cleanup The Corners >Tell me something Robert. NASA was supposedly developing the >Aero-Space Plane, the X-30. What has become of that program? I >was thinking it was suppose to be flying by 1998 or 1999. Yet, >now, I don't hear anything about it. Hi Mike, I think the x-30 is scrubbed. The latest USAF TS project for airframe evaluation is the x-60 program. Have found little on this save for the fact the craft is in the shape of a triangle. sincerely, Robert A.M. Stephens NASA Documentation Program Stillwater Mills Contractor-Aerospace 406-745-3818 sti3818@montana.com http://198.116.116.10/gallery/arts/samples.html
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 3 Re: Apocalypse Pretty Soon From: John Rimmer <magonia@magonia.demon.co.uk> Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 21:03:29 +0000 Fwd Date: Wed, 03 Feb 1999 20:49:51 -0500 Subject: Re: Apocalypse Pretty Soon >Date: Tue, 02 Feb 1999 14:18:35 -0600 >From: Alfred Lehmberg <lehmberg@snowhill.com> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: Re: Apocalypse Pretty Soon >>Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 22:14:03 -0500 >>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com> >>Subject: UFO UpDate: Re: Apocalypse Pretty Soon >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >>I'm going to have to change the name of my UFO/FBI book to >>something more attuned with the times, such as >>'Almost Apocalypse' >>or ><snip> >>'The Apocalypso - A Dance, Starring Hairy Banana' Sorry, can't use that one. The great Robert Rankin has a new book out called Apocalypso - in which the hero is a certain, ahem, Sir John Rimmer! -- John Rimmer www.magonia.demon.co.uk Abandon hope all ye who press Enter here
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 3 Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net> Date: Wed, 03 Feb 99 16:08:15 PST Fwd Date: Wed, 03 Feb 1999 20:56:45 -0500 Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 20:28:03 -0500 >From: Mendoza <DarkSecretPB@compuserve.com> >Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net> >>Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >>Date: Tue, 02 Feb 99 10:54:43 PST >That would be a nice fat research job for someone, and life in >abduction research would actually be _more_ interesting if >abductologists took the view of proper ufologists, that 95 out >of 100 claims were likely to fall apart on close inspection. (I >think Mark Cashman first suggested this might be a fruitful >approach.) But as abductologists have now decided why the aliens >are here, and even that they'll be out of the closet within the >next couple of generations or even the next five years, I doubt >it'll be one of the familiar crew who'll adopt this line. For once I agree with the Duke here. It is futile to argue that all, or even many, or perhaps even most, abduction claims are going to withstand scrutiny. My own experience -- and I'm sure those of others who've looked into individual cases -- says as much, as does the empirical evidence of the neglected (though I cite it again) study by Rodeghier, Goodpaster, and Blatterbauer published in JUFOS' 1991 issue. >>I was writing a short story collection by Richard Currey, >Gosh, Jerry, you never told us this before. And how long did it >take you to finish "Moby Dick"? :-) A week or two, and thanks for your interest. Actually, to be perfectly honest, I was not "writing" Currey's collection, just reading it. Much easier. How long, by the way, did it take you to write -- er, read -- Anna Karenina? Cheers, Jerry Clark
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 3 Re: Premature Birth & Abduction? From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net> Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 16:16:58 -0500 Fwd Date: Wed, 03 Feb 1999 20:59:45 -0500 Subject: Re: Premature Birth & Abduction? >Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 20:27:59 -0500 >From: Mendoza <DarkSecretPB@compuserve.com> >Subject: UFO UpDate: Re: Premature Birth & Abduction? >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >My turn for picky correction. Al Lawson maintained, as I recall, at >one point that he could tell the difference between a naturally >born abductee and a C-sectioned one, from their abduction >narratives, and that this checked out when the medical records were >consulted. >Possibly this is discussed in the papers--greatly developed >versions of his original ones on hypnosis and birth memory--on >his website, whose URL unfortunately I don't have (try >Metacrawler). http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/6521/ I'll have to go and check this. It's a fairly staggering site, and includes a paper on birth imagery in rock videos. There's a lot of anger at the site, too -- Lawson, not really credentialed, as far as I can tell, in any of the fields he comments on, feels ignored by the world. (But then, I'm not credentialed either. Though I _was_ once born, come to think of it.) >>(The other one, of course, was that >>nobody has ever proved that anyone remembers being born.) >No one has ever _proved_ anyone remembers anything, least of all >being abducted. And the notion of birth memory is a good deal >subtler than that. Not that I buy the Lawson thesis, but let's >be fair to the man. >One of the most frustrating, and in my view most revealing, >things about Lawson's research into "real" and "false" >abductions, in which he maintained that abductees and >non-abductees produced strikingly similar stories under >hypnosis, is that while many were called to rage against it--not >always reasonably--none were called to repeat the experiment(s) >in a manner that took criticisms into account. A caricaturist >would say Believers were frightened to, and Disbelievers thought >they didn't have to. Oh, dear. Oh, dear, indeed. I've never seen any comments on Lawson's expanded version of his "imaginary abductee" paper, which can be found on his site, along with complete experimental data, rather heavily annotated with Lawson's own interpretation, lest anyone take it simply at face value (whatever that might turn out to be). My own comment might go something like this. When one compares imagery -- birth imagery vs. abduction imagery (or rock videos), real abduction accounts vs. made-up accounts by those who don't claim to have been abducted -- one has considerable latitude. Essentially it's your "compare and contrast" exam paper, or, on a higher level, your exercise in literary criticism. "A Comparison of Birth Imagery in the Works of Chaucer and William Burroughs." The results are very much in the eyes of the beholder, which is fine in literature, but not so good in science. What you need to follow is a procedure like that used in the best remote viewing research, or in a JUFOS piece on UFO stories in the New York Times. In remote viewing research, you have, on one hand, photographs of the sites to be remote-viewed, and, on the other, drawings or verbal descriptions by the remote viewers, that may or may not correspond to the sites. Since whether they do or not is a matter of interpretation, you set up a panel of neutral judges, who each match drawings or descriptions to the photographs, with no knowledge of what photographs the drawings or descriptions were thought to represent. Their results are then averaged, and only if their averages show a pronounced correspondance between remote viewing and results and photographs are the results said to be positive. In other words, just because the photographs showed a water tower and the remote viewer drew a cylinder, we don't jump to the conclusion that the remote viewer saw the correct outline of the target. Neutral judges, looking at all the target photographs and all the remote viewing results at once, have to make the match. (I hope I'm remembering this procedure correctly!) In the JUFOS case, the authors, social scientists, concluded that the Times' coverage of UFOs had grown more negative over the years. But to conclude that, you have to agree on which stories are negative. Again, they set up a panel of neutral judges, who read all the stories in question, and rated them on a numerical scale from strongly positive to strongly negative. Their ratings were averaged, and these averages -- rather than the authors' opinions -- were used to judge which category to put the stories into. This is what JUFOS is supposed to be doing with Budd Hopkins' samples of alleged alien writing. An independent panel is supposed to rate their similarity to each other. And this is what Lawson does _not_ do on his site. He speckles his experimental data with his own views on its similarity to "real" abductions, thereby indulging in literary criticism. Some of what he says makes sense to me, some seems entirely far-fetched -- and none of it really matters, neither my view nor his, until independent judges make their own determinations. Greg Sandow (If this were a scientific report, I'd go back to the site and see whether he'd used such a panel in his original paper. But he certainly doesn't in the comments that make up the bulk of what's there now.)
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 3 Re: 8/27/96 Re: MJ-12 Document From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net> Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 17:33:43 -0400 Fwd Date: Wed, 03 Feb 1999 21:03:18 -0500 Subject: Re: 8/27/96 Re: MJ-12 Document >Date: Tue, 02 Feb 1999 14:42:01 -0800 >From: Ed Stewart <ufoindex@jps.net> >To: updates@globalserve.net >Subject: 8/27/96 Re: MJ-12 Document >On this repost, it was necessary to point out the shallowness of >the counter-arguments of Stanton Friedman related to the alleged >and bogus SCEO #092447, and by extension all old and new alleged >MJ-12 documents referencing the bogus SCEO#092447. >We also discover that Stanton Friedman had not been entirely >truthful in his posts to this mailing list by allowing >implications that in the past he had been in a "position" to >handle TOP SECRET documents. His past continuous appeals to >authority based on his alleged past experiences turned out to be >irrelevant since never in his life Stanton Friedman had access >to Top Secret documents. He never had a clearance that would >have given him access to any such documents and his intellectual >dishonesty was exposed in the repost, below. Let us get facts straight: 1. I have never claimed to have had a TOP SECRET CLearance although I did have a Q which gave me access to Secret Restricted Data. 2. I have seen loads of formerly TOP SECRET Documents during my many visits to Archives (18 at least count) 3. I published in my "Final Report on Operation Majestic 12" 5 formerly TS documents which did not have Control numbers, whether Ed Stewart likes it or not. 4. Judging by the Cutler Twining Memo, we are dealing with a NSC/MJ-12 Special Studies Group. This is not part of the Department of Defense. The NSC serves the President. 5. It is simply too bad that Ed doesn't like my arguments. I deal with the real world as it is and as it is testified to be by Archivists who handle classified and fomerly classified documents all the time. I realize that Ed believes he knows more than they do and assumes that the rules about such matters are identical and always adhered to in all governmental agencies. This is false. 6. I have on several occasions found "classified" documents in boxes that had supposedly been declassiified. They were sometimes not marked declassified. That is the real world 7. Perhaps to soothe Ed I should have said when a memo goes from an individual to his boss instead of from me to my boss so no one could even think I was talking f my handling TS material.. As indicated. 8. Ed tells us that a TS Executive Order doesn't get a number until it is declassified. Since there is no indication that the Truman Forrestal memo was declassified, could that not easily explain why it did NOT have a normal number on it and the term "special classified executive order" ( which seems to me a very accurate description) was used to give it a useful identification in a listing on a preliminary Briefing document. I use the date when I invoice people as part of the invoice number. The State Department uses the date as part of their filing system number for a document.. I am sorry that dosn't meet with Ed's approval, but that is the way it is. 9. Obviously it would be useful if we had formerly highly classified Briefings and special classified executive orders for comparison. I have been unable to obtain even the 4 briefings known to have been given by DCI Walter .B. Smith to Ike between Nov. 4, 1952 and Jan. 9, l953. Perhaps Ed with all his knowledge about such matters can find some good examples. Stan Friedman
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 3 Re: RAMS - Cleanup The Corners From: Terry Blanton <commengr@bellsouth.net> Date: Wed, 03 Feb 1999 16:38:15 -0500 Fwd Date: Wed, 03 Feb 1999 21:08:31 -0500 Subject: Re: RAMS - Cleanup The Corners >Date: Tue, 02 Feb 1999 19:26:58 -0600 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >From: Michael Christol <mchristo@mindspring.com> >Subject: Re: RAMS - Cleanup The Corners <snip> >Tell me something Robert. NASA was supposedly developing the >Aero-Space Plane, the X-30. What has become of that program? I >was thinking it was suppose to be flying by 1998 or 1999. Yet, >now, I don't hear anything about it. The X-33 prototype was to be tested this month but was delayed due to a fuel tank problem. It has it's own web site at: http://www.venturestar.com/ Terry
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 3 Re: Deficiency In SETI's Drake's Equation From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@aol.com> Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 16:43:37 EST Fwd Date: Wed, 03 Feb 1999 21:15:38 -0500 Subject: Re: Deficiency In SETI's Drake's Equation >From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj@proaxis.com> >Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 21:54:18 -0800 (PST) >Fwd Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 17:04:47 -0500 >Subject: Re: Deficiency In SETI's Drake's Equation >>From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@aol.com> >>Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 23:22:01 EST >>To: updates@globalserve.net >>Subject: Re: Deficiency In SETI's Drake's Equation >>Dyson's point here is that all we would likely see of this >>sphere is the infrared heat signature. Any radio wave >>communications (if they still were used) would probably be >>largely confined to the inside of the sphere. >Hi David, >Dyson's Dyson-sphere sure is the height of impracticality, isn't >it? If the advanced civilization he had in mind could convert >all of the mass of a planet the size of Mars into material out >of which to make the spherical shell, and if it were placed at a >distance about equal to the Earth's orbit from the sun, the >shell would only be 0.024 in. thick! (barring an arithmetical >mistake). I've never bothered to work this out before, but you're right. This would give a new meaning to the phrase skating on thin ice. >There'd be comets and meteors piercing it frequently, >and no good way to let the solar wind escape, etc. No problem. Just open some windows. 8^) I can think of some other serious problems, such as virtually no gravity inside or outside the sphere. What's going to hold an atmosphere in place or anything else for that matter? Temperature regulation would be another big headache. The inside of the sphere has 24 hours/day of sunshine (except there are no longer any "days"). > To make it >sturdy enough to withstand most of such stuff, say by extending >it to 10 feet thick, would then require the mass of 5000 more >Mars-sized planets converted into the shell's structural >material. To gather all that would in itself require the >capability of easy interstellar travel, unless they could >convert Jupiter-type planets' gases into building materials. As I remember, Dyson conceived of using absolutely everything in the solar system to build the sphere -- small rocky planets, asteroids, comets in the Oort cloud, gas giants -- the whole nine planets and then some. However, as you point out, there isn't very much out there in the way of heavier elements. The gas giants have average densities close to that of water (Saturn is lighter than water). And all the matter in the solar system may amount to only a couple of Jupiters (Jupiter, e.g., has more mass than all the other planets put together). Each Jupiter is about 10,000 Mars in volume and about 3000 in mass. There isn't all that much building material out there. We tend to forget that the whole solar system condensed out of an extremely tenuous gas and dust cloud. >Somehow I think the environmentalists of the future would not >want any of that, No problem. They would be ignored, just as they are today. Only an advanced civilization would have more highly advanced means of ignoring them. >and would prefer retaining the capability of sleeping out under >the stars with the feel of the cold night air in their face. You want night and stars? Just move a few feet to the outside of the sphere and roll out your sleeping bag. What could be simpler? Sheesh! >>>(Ntot could be extended further, of course, by considering any >>>ETI who possess inter-galactic travel capabilities.) >>Not to mention any ETI who possess INTRA-galactic travel >>capabilities. >Thanks for correcting me on that. I had meant intra, of course. I wasn't correcting you. I thought you meant intergalactic. The important point is that most SETI people totally dismiss the possibility of interstellar travel of any kind, no matter how ancient or advanced the civilization. If you take that off the table a priori, then of course UFOs must be nonsense and there is no need to even consider the possibility that ETs may already have found us. >>Even barring some breakthrough propulsion FTL propulsion scheme, >>sub-light travel is definitely theoretically possible. >As each new breakthrough in (our) science occurs, however, it >allows them to make tiny extrapolations that go a little farther >towards the feasibility of interstellar travel than before. The >"teleportation of a photon" is perhaps the latest example. But >what they seem incapable of doing is extrapolating our rate of >scientific discovery hundreds of thousands of years into the >future to admit that what we could do then would indeed seem >like magic to us now. Their extrapolations just come to a halt >after a few decades. Yes, that's remarkably short-sided, if not arrogant, isn't it? It's an egocentric point of view that we are very near the apex of scientific insight and technology. Since Newton, this seems to have happened near the end of each century, sort of a centennial madness that science had nearly reached the end of the line. >... >>But SETI assumes that aliens remain forever confined to their >>home star system. Thus they generally restrict their searches to >>the most earthlike star systems, one's that would most likely >>evolve native life, rather than be colonized from beyond. >>However, even one ancient, advanced, relentlessly colonizing and >>expanding alien species (think Borg) could explore and colonize >>every nook and crook of the galaxy in only a few million years. >>At that point, throw out the Drake equation, because they could >>be everywhere. >Yes, that argument came out in 1979, and was used by the >we-are-alone advocates as evidence that no other intelligent >life more advanced than us exists in the galaxy, since we have >not been colonized or wiped out by such Borgs. Then Sagan and >other SETI types had to argue (in 1981 & 1983) that the >colonizing alien race would need to stop at each suitable >star/planetary system and pause 100,000 years there before >moving on to explore/colonize the next one further out. (Would >they be able to remember after all that time that colonization >was what their overriding aim was?) That gross assumption slowed >the whole colonization process down so much that the dispersal >of stellar systems, as they rotated around the galactic center, >would render such colonization ineffective. They wouldn't necessarily have to be hostile like Borgs, just have a very well organized and regimented social structure such that prolonged expansion, exploration, and colonization could take place. I think many people also suffer from an anthropomorphized mindset that such an empire would have to have a centralized control system, along the lines of the Roman or British empires. Of course at sub-light speeds, that wouldn't be terribly practical, nor could such an empire be very large. Rather, if FTL communication or travel is indeed impossible, then I would conceive of more or less independent colonies roaming the galaxy like gypsy bands with the home planet nothing but a very distant memory. >We could then escape detection by falling through the cracks, >which was SETI's desired conclusion. Any assumption in SETI, no matter how far-fetched, seems to be rationalized if it can be used to dismiss the idea that they might already have found us. The Fermi paradox is only a paradox if you start off assuming there is no evidence of alien visitation. >Both schools of thought neglected the effect of continuing >scientific advancement, and both neglected the likelihood that >for each alien race intent on wiping out all others, there would >likely be many others who would value the diversity of life. There could also be many major biological incompatibities between native and invading life forms, which might make a planet alread flourishing with life undesirable or inpractical for colonization. Civilizations already very adept at living in space might prefer to keep it that way. Living planets might be more useful as sources of raw materials rather than as permanent living quarters. So they could exploit whatever the native herds might have to offer without necessarily displacing them. One can also imagine that our development and often irrational activities might be a form of intellectual entertainment to an old jaded species which has largely eliminated the unexpected from their own lives. Getting rid of us would be like getting rid of the Soaps. >>Jim, you just don't understand. No matter how intelligent or how >>great the headstart in science & technology, alien civilizations >>will always be limited to chemical rocket speeds. You have >>Frank Drake's expert opinion on that. Therefore, they could >>never show up here. >OK, if Drake says so. ;) It's interesting to hear, though, that >you sounded Drake out a few months ago. I'm sure you didn't >expect his response to be any different than what it was. You mean that you can't teach an old dog new tricks? Or is it what's sauce for the goose is sauce for the Drake? (OK, bad, real bad) Ironically after posting my criticism of Drake early last December, I got Drake's "Christmas Card" soliciting funds for the SETI Institute just a few days afterwards. Hath the man no shame? ;-) David Rudiak
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 3 Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net> Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 16:42:27 -0500 Fwd Date: Wed, 03 Feb 1999 21:17:32 -0500 Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 20:28:03 -0500 >From: Mendoza <DarkSecretPB@compuserve.com> >Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >That would be a nice fat research job for someone, and life in >abduction research would actually be _more_ interesting if >abductologists took the view of proper ufologists, that 95 out >of 100 claims were likely to fall apart on close inspection. (I >think Mark Cashman first suggested this might be a fruitful >approach.) But as abductologists have now decided why the aliens >are here, and even that they'll be out of the closet within the >next couple of generations or even the next five years, I doubt >it'll be one of the familiar crew who'll adopt this line. I've remarked elsewhere that there's no reason why abduction reports should show the same IFO/UFO percentages as UFO sightings. When police are known to be looking for someone, and people call in saying they've seen the suspect, many or most of those reports are mistaken. But when people report burglaries to the police, I doubt there are many mistakes. When you come home and find your door open, your things ransacked, and valuables missing, you've been burglarized, not much doubt about it. Similarly, assault charges filed with police may sometimes be lies, but surely aren't mistakes. These comparisons leave many questions unanswered, of course, about abduction reports, which are muddled by hazy memories and the well-known lack of physical evidence. Still, it's worth noting that "abductologists," at least the ones I know, don't simply work with anyone who walks in the door and says "hypnotize me, I think I've been abducted." I've said this before, too, but evidently it bears repeating. Many people contact abduction researchers (again, the ones I know), but the possible abductees likely to get return phone calls are the ones reporting a particular constellation of consciously remembered experiences (lights in the room, presences by the bed, missing time serious enough to have caused an urgent search by family and/or police, and so forth). Whether these experiences are as tangible as the signs of burglary -- or whether they can reasonably be interpreted as abduction indicators -- is quite another story. But abduction investigators (again, the ones I know) don't proceed in the way Peter implies. They'd be the first to tell you that not everyone who thinks he/she is abducted really has been. One last word. If a tone of impatience is creeping into my comments, it's because Peter, bless him, puts things very much his own way -- and that way, according to me, is slanted to make abduction investigators look far more careless than they really are. (Luckily, he does so far less in his book than he does here.) This doesn't make him intellectually dishonest -- just exasperating. With a smile, Greg Sandow
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 3 Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net> Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 16:42:27 -0500 Fwd Date: Wed, 03 Feb 1999 21:19:32 -0500 Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 20:28:03 -0500 >From: Mendoza <DarkSecretPB@compuserve.com> >Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >That would be a nice fat research job for someone, and life in >abduction research would actually be _more_ interesting if >abductologists took the view of proper ufologists, that 95 out >of 100 claims were likely to fall apart on close inspection. (I >think Mark Cashman first suggested this might be a fruitful >approach.) But as abductologists have now decided why the aliens >are here, and even that they'll be out of the closet within the >next couple of generations or even the next five years, I doubt >it'll be one of the familiar crew who'll adopt this line. I've remarked elsewhere that there's no reason why abduction reports should show the same IFO/UFO percentages as UFO sightings. When police are known to be looking for someone, and people call in saying they've seen the suspect, many or most of those reports are mistaken. But when people report burglaries to the police, I doubt there are many mistakes. When you come home and find your door open, your things ransacked, and valuables missing, you've been burglarized, not much doubt about it. Similarly, assault charges filed with police may sometimes be lies, but surely aren't mistakes. These comparisons leave many questions unanswered, of course, about abduction reports, which are muddled by hazy memories and the well-known lack of physical evidence. Still, it's worth noting that "abductologists," at least the ones I know, don't simply work with anyone who walks in the door and says "hypnotize me, I think I've been abducted." I've said this before, too, but evidently it bears repeating. Many people contact abduction researchers (again, the ones I know), but the possible abductees likely to get return phone calls are the ones reporting a particular constellation of consciously remembered experiences (lights in the room, presences by the bed, missing time serious enough to have caused an urgent search by family and/or police, and so forth). Whether these experiences are as tangible as the signs of burglary -- or whether they can reasonably be interpreted as abduction indicators -- is quite another story. But abduction investigators (again, the ones I know) don't proceed in the way Peter implies. They'd be the first to tell you that not everyone who thinks he/she is abducted really has been. One last word. If a tone of impatience is creeping into my comments, it's because Peter, bless him, puts things very much his own way -- and that way, according to me, is slanted to make abduction investigators look far more careless than they really are. (Luckily, he does so far less in his book than he does here.) This doesn't make him intellectually dishonest -- just exasperating. With a smile,
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 3 Re: Nick Pope's Weird World From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net> Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 18:15:56 -0400 Fwd Date: Wed, 03 Feb 1999 21:24:27 -0500 Subject: Re: Nick Pope's Weird World >From: Georgina Bruni <georgina@easynet.co.uk> >Date: Tue, 02 Feb 1999 01:45:48 +0000 >To: updates@globalserve.net >Subject: Nick Pope's Weird World >New MJ-12 Documents >Depending upon your point of view, the MJ-12 documents are >either the best evidence that the US government knows that >some >UFOs are extraterrestrial =8A or are simply an outrageous hoax. I >tend to think it's a hoax, but now there is fresh controversy >over a new batch of documents that has appeared. For those >who don't know the background, it's claimed that in the aftermath >of the crash of an extraterrestrial spacecraft in 1947, near >Roswell in New Mexico, a small group known as Majestic-12 >was set up to study the craft and the alien bodies. The first batch >of documents were sent on film to US film producer Jaime >Shandera. When developed he had what seemed to be an eight >page briefing paper prepared in 1952 for president-elect >Dwight Eisenhower. The material was subsequently published in >the US byShandera and Bill Moore, and in the UK by Timothy >Good in AboveTop Secret. >It was investigated at great length by a number ofufologists, >most notably Stanton Friedman, whose book(co-authored with Don >Berliner) Crash at Corona is probably the best of the many >books to have been written on Roswell andMJ-12. It will be >interesting to see Stanton's view on the new documents, and >fascinating to watch developments over the coming year. I guess Nick missed my book TOP SECRET/MAJIC which is all about the MJ-12 documents and mentions some of the new ones and Tim Cooper. It was also published in the UK by O'Mara and I am offering a special on the autographed Hard Cover version of only $l5. including S and H from UFORI, POB 958, Houlton, ME 04730-0958. I am working hard on the "newer" documents checking various "facts". Time will tell. Stan Friedman
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 3 Joe Firmage on T.V. From: Leanne Martin <leanne_martin@hotmail.com> Date: Wed, 03 Feb 1999 14:18:49 PST Fwd Date: Wed, 03 Feb 1999 21:26:15 -0500 Subject: Joe Firmage on T.V. G'day List, F.Y.I.: Joe Firmage was interviewd this a.m. on national t.v. here in Oz. On the "Today" morning program at 8:50 (approx 35 minutes ago) via a live link to California. He stated that he was definitely not in it for any monetary return. He stated that he believes he spoke with an alien entity in his bedroom the morning after reading several phsics reports to do with interstellar/anti-gravtational travel. Disturbingly, the interviewer kept pushing a line of questions to do with him (Firmage) starting a 'death cult' because of part of the conversation he had with the alien. Firmage steadfastly denied this angle as implied in the questions. The interview lasted barely 8 minutes and was of little depth. Regards, Leanne ];-)
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 3 Re: Premature Birth & Abduction? From: Leanne Martin <leanne_martin@hotmail.com> Date: Wed, 03 Feb 1999 14:40:14 PST Fwd Date: Wed, 03 Feb 1999 21:28:49 -0500 Subject: Re: Premature Birth & Abduction? >From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com> >Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 15:49:42 EST >To: updates@globalserve.net >Subject: Re: Premature Birth & Abduction? >>Date: Tue, 02 Feb 1999 12:13:34 -0800 >>From: Judith Dale <judithdale@earthlink.net> >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >>Subject: Re: Premature Birth & Abduction? >>Let's get down to brass tacks here. Why is it happening? What if >>anything, do we need to do to respond? Is it a threat to our >>well-being as humans? Although, I must say, I believe we are so >>much of a threat to ourselves, that an "alien" threat doesn't >>seem much worse to me. >Dear, dear Judith Dale... thank you. A breath of fresh air in >a stale room full of rhino juice and Gripple Dripple... Finally! >I think I love you, G'day Judith, Jim & List, Yes! Lets please get down to 'brass tacks' here. Lets assume that the fairies at the bottom of the garden are quite real, too. What threat do they pose humanity. And what of the leprechauns? And don't forget every other folkloric entity too . . . Oh we'll be rooned I tell ye! Why waste an ounce of brain time on urban mythology (unless you're an urban mythologist) when concrete proof is absent?
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 3 Re: Mig-29 SMT Has Plasma Stealth System From: Leanne Martin <leanne_martin@hotmail.com> Date: Wed, 03 Feb 1999 14:58:54 PST Fwd Date: Wed, 03 Feb 1999 21:30:22 -0500 Subject: Re: Mig-29 SMT Has Plasma Stealth System >From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@get2net.dk> >Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 01:54:52 +0100 (MET) >Subject: Mig-29 SMT Has Plasma Stealth System >To: updates@globalserve.net >Recently I forwarded a TASS news item on the Russian plasma >stealth already developed. See >http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates/1999/jan/m30-016.shtml >J. Pharabod, who alerted the Skunk Works mailing list to the >TASS message, has just forwarded an interesting update. URL: >http://www.ufomind.com/military/aircraft/skunkworks/mailing/msg02046.shtml G'day Stig & List, The above linked URL does not appear to work . . . Regards, Leanne ];-)
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 3 Re: On Eyewitness Testimony From: Sharon Kardol <sharon@hotmix.com.au> Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 10:10:33 +0800 Fwd Date: Wed, 03 Feb 1999 22:16:34 -0500 Subject: Re: On Eyewitness Testimony >From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: Re: On Eyewitness Testimony >Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 23:31:18 -0500 >>Date: Tue, 02 Feb 1999 12:11:18 -0800 >>From: Ed Stewart <ufoindex@jps.net> >>To: updates@globalserve.net >>Subject: On Eyewitness Testimony <snip> ><many examples of mistaken sightings snipped> >And then there's the dramatic case that unfolded last week in >New Jersey. Someone thought they'd seen a tiger wandering >through their town. Turns out it _was_ a tiger, and after >attempts to tranquilize it failed, the animal had to be killed. >Residents, meanwhile, stayed behind locked doors, waiting for >the all-clear. >Turned out further that there was a private tiger preserve >nearby, with a hole in its fence. The owners of the preserve >claimed that all their tigers were accounted for, but couldn't >substantiate that because their records were in terrible shape. >So some sightings of unusual animals are in fact accurate. What >lesson can ufology learn from _that_? >Greg Sandow Guess you said it all, Greg - "some sightings...". I think we need to focus on the 1% or the 0.1%, or even the 0.001% that stump even the smartest 'rocket scientists'. Geee, this business just keeps getting harder ; ) Cheers Sharon K
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 3 Re: Apocalypse Pretty Soon From: Sharon Kardol <sharon@hotmix.com.au> Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 10:15:18 +0800 Fwd Date: Wed, 03 Feb 1999 22:19:01 -0500 Subject: Re: Apocalypse Pretty Soon >Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 12:08:21 -0500 >From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com> >Subject: Re: Apocalypse Pretty Soon >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >>Date: Tue, 02 Feb 1999 14:18:35 -0600 >>From: Alfred Lehmberg <lehmberg@snowhill.com> >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >>Subject: Re: Apocalypse Pretty Soon >>>Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 22:14:03 -0500 >>>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com> >>>Subject: UFO UpDate: Re: Apocalypse Pretty Soon >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >>>I'm going to have to change the name of my UFO/FBI book to >>>something more attuned with the times, such as> >>>'Almost Apocalypse' >>>or ><snip> >>>'The Apocalypso - A Dance, Starring Hairy Banana' >>"Ti-pocalypse" or "Apocalypse Park" have nice rings -- get Bob >>Newhart to play Dr. Maccabee in the film version... <g>. >I will definitely take your recommendation into consideration. >And that brings up a new name possibiltiy: >Apocaland How about some quality family entertainment like Talk to the Apocalypse, or Herbie goes Apocalyptic.....
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 3 Re: 'Word' Is Beginning To Get Out... From: Sue Kovios <bradford@globalserve.net> Date: Wed, 03 Feb 1999 21:18:45 -0500 Fwd Date: Wed, 03 Feb 1999 22:24:44 -0500 Subject: Re: 'Word' Is Beginning To Get Out... >From: Joe Firmage <jfirmage@uswebcks.com> >Subject: 'Word' Is Beginning To Get Out... >Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 15:28:19 -0800 >To: updates@globalserve.net >Check out... >http://www.nytimes.com/library/national/science/020299sci-essay.html >J O S E P H F I R M A G E >Founder & Chairman Thanx Joe. An intriguing article. I attended a seminar on Out of Body Experiences a couple of years ago and the teacher, in response to a question I asked about UFOs, stated that everything is made up of energy, and depending on our own energy make-up reflects how we perceive other forms of energy. I didn't swallow that completely but I do believe that there may be other forms of energy entering our atmosphere that take on certain shapes and forms. Perhaps the waves they interject with could determine their appearance and/or disappearance, speed and stillness, etc. This probably sounds like a bunch of mumbo-jumbo, but hey, Wilbur Wright also said man would never achieve flight. I should think of becoming a scientist when I grow up. From there I looked around and also found the following article: (Is Dr. Brownlee trying to be a comedian towards the end of the article? ) http://www.nytimes.com/library/national/science/020299sci-stardust.html February 2, 1999 In Search of Star Dust and Clues to Life By William J. Broad It is the stuff of people, as well as cats, plants, buttons, shoes, seas, planets, comets, moons, cars, books and cell phones, not to mention the paper (or computer screen) on which these words appear: star dust. For decades, science has known of the importance of star dust in the cosmic scheme of things, especially in matter more elaborate than the simple elements made in the primordial Big Bang. But scientists have never had pure samples to study. Soon, though, they will, if everything goes as planned. On Saturday, the National Aeronautics and Space Administration is to launch a probe meant to capture interplanetary and interstellar dust in some of its rawest and purest forms, including many thousands of grains from a comet. After a seven-year trek, the craft is to return the samples to Earth, the first ever from beyond the Moon. Appropriately enough, the mission is dubbed Stardust. "We want to find out what this stuff is like," said Dr. Donald C. Brownlee of the University of Washington, the chief scientist of the mission. "It's the building block of planets and human bodies." Dr. Alastair G. W. Cameron, an astrophysicist at Harvard University, said scooping up star dust would greatly expand a field that has recently undergone "a revolution" in understanding not only how stars live and die but thrive in surprising diversity. The urge to investigate is driven by more than curiosity. Earth sits in a cosmic shooting gallery, surrounded by speeding blocks of ice and rock. The last time a really big one hit, 65 million years ago, the tumult helped do in the dinosaurs, among other creatures. Today, scientists are seeking to learn more about comets and other clumps of star dust in case earthlings might one day want to divert one of the intruders, which can threaten more ruin than all the world's nuclear arsenals combined. Dr. Don Yeomans, a senior scientist at the Jet Propulsion Laboratory in Pasadena, Calif., which manages the Stardust mission, said it was only prudent to find such objects, learn their structure and "keep an eye upon their future trajectories." Most intriguing of all, scientists hope a harvest of Stardust data will yield clues to the origin of life on Earth, and perhaps elsewhere. A rain of cosmic and cometary material is widely thought to have brought early Earth not only water but the carbon-rich molecules necessary for life. Indeed, some scientists believe the speeding mountains of dirty ice known as comets may themselves support primitive life. While highly speculative, such thinking has been bolstered ever so slightly in recent years by the discovery of earthly microbes dwelling in all manner of extreme environments from hot springs to polar ices. The possibility of cometary life is real enough that NASA asked some of the nation's top biologists and other scientists to assess whether the returning probe might inadvertently infect Earth with a plague of microscopic aliens. That risk was ruled out. But scientists say there is a very slim chance the craft will carry back dead extraterrestrials killed by heat during capture. "We concluded that the collection method would not allow any organisms to live," said Dr. Clark R. Chapman, a senior scientist at the Southwest Research Institute, based in San Antonio, and a member of the review team. "But they might come back mashed and partly melted." The backdrop for the mission was set some 12 billion to 16 billion years ago when repercussions of the cosmic explosion known as the Big Bang filled the expanding universe with hydrogen and helium, the simplest elements. They burned as stars flashed to life. The starry furnaces in turn transformed the hydrogen and helium into a variety of heavier elements, including carbon, nitrogen, oxygen, silicon and iron. Such ashes were blown into space from parent stars by stellar winds or blasted out by stellar explosions, the great heats of which are thought to have made still heavier elements. Over generations of stars, a mix of gas and dust formed in interstellar space that included grains of graphite (pure carbon), silicon carbide (carbon and silicon) and water ice (hydrogen and oxygen). The mix is thought to have gotten richer still as new stars lit up nearby dust clouds with bursts of ultraviolet light, turning simple atoms and molecules into more complex ones like methane, methyl alcohol and dozens of other so-called organic compounds rich in carbon. Such intricate dusts in turn formed new generations of stars, perhaps accompanied by planets and icy comets not unlike those of our own solar system, which is thought to have condensed out of a dusty cloud some 4.6 billion years ago. Today, scientists know about this cosmic chemistry in part by having peered with telescopes into the icy depths of space and found the signatures of all kinds of simple and complex molecules. Joni Mitchell, it seems, got it right in her song "Woodstock" when she sang, "We are star dust." The celestial mix (much water, many organic chemicals) matches that of the human body better than Earth's general makeup does. In our solar system, most of the original cloud has vanished. It was pulled into the Sun, blown into deep space or turned into planets where internal heats and actions altered the materials still further. But some of the original cloud survives, mainly in the form of billions of comets. Other primal matter falls to Earth in the form of rocky meteorites or as a steady rain of cosmic and cometary dust. "That's the irony," said Dr. Brownlee of the University of Washington, who pioneered catching such dust in high-flying jets. "We have cometary particles all over us. Anybody who has been outside today has a cometary particle on them. But you can't find them or where they came from." The reason for the uncertainty is that the particles are mixed up amid earthly and celestial contamination and have often been altered by heat upon hitting Earth's atmosphere. Despite its ambitious goals, Stardust is one of NASA's cheaper space probes, costing $166 million. Contributing to the low price is the recycling of spare parts from earlier craft like Voyager, Galileo and Cassini. After launching from Florida, Stardust will head for deep space. On approaching interstellar dust streams and the target comet, known as Wild-2, it will deploy, on command from Earth, a particle catcher shaped like a tennis racket. The catcher is covered on both sides with an extremely low-density foam known as aerogel. This semitransparent material will slow and stop particles without altering them too much. One side will be used for the comet; the other for the interstellar dust. In 2000 and 2002, the craft will gather dust in the regions between Mars and Jupiter. Recently, other probes moving through these areas have found a strong flow of particles from roughly the direction of the constellation Sagittarius, toward which the Sun is moving. In January 2004, Stardust is to encounter Wild-2 -- a glob of dirty ice a few miles wide. It is considered an ideal target because it only recently has been deflected by Jupiter's gravity from a distant orbit into the inner solar system, so its outer layers have undergone relatively little solar heating. Wild-2 now travels in a looping path from just outside Jupiter's orbit to just inside that of Mars, where it makes its closest approach to the Sun and reaches peak activity. The spacecraft, 97 days after that peak, is to zoom past the comet. The rendezvous site lies beyond the red planet. Still, the Sun will be able to coax the ice ball into shedding dense swarms of particles and vapors. At 13,600 miles per hour, the spacecraft is to swoop through the comet's coma, the globular cloud-like mass that makes up the head, passing within 100 or so miles of the core. It will capture dust and photograph the nucleus. Particles will hit the dust catcher at up to six times the speed of a bullet fired from a high-powered rifle, NASA estimates. The craft's front end and solar panels are shielded with armor plates to protect Stardust from the storm of icy particles. Scientists say the particles will range from roughly 100 microns (twice the width of a typical human hair) to less than a micron (one-fiftieth of a human hair). A few, they judge, will be large and a million or so, smaller than a micron. After the collecting is done, in January 2006, the craft's 32-inch-wide return pod is to descend by parachute toward the United States Air Force Test and Training range in Utah. The planned landing site is 100 or so miles southwest of Salt Lake City in the desert. Then, scientists will begin analyzing its samples, working in particular to establish as firm a baseline as possible for the makeup of cosmic dust. "It will give us ground truth," Dr. Brownlee said. Scientists also hope to address a number of mysteries in the analysis of dust particles captured by jets and retrieved from meteorites, especially odd ratios in them of rare isotopes, which have the same chemical properties of parent elements but different atomic weights. In theory, studies of the samples could illuminate the evolutionary history of stars and establish a firm link between interstellar dust, the state of the solar system's early cloud, the nature of comets and the materials that today make up Earth and its inhabitants. NASA discounts the possibility that any living alien creatures will hitch a ride to Earth. "Comets are extremely unlikely places for life," Dr. John Rummel, the agency's planetary protection officer, said at a recent press conference. Nevertheless, NASA had the National Academy of Sciences, the Congressionally chartered group of leading scientists that advises the Government, go over the mission plan carefully. A 10-member panel appointed by the Academy's National Research Council concluded in a report last year that cometary life was unlikely but that "the possibility cannot be completely ruled out." In addressing the alien issue, Dr. Brownlee noted that though most of the cosmic particles that fall naturally to Earth are heated, some are not. Therefore, in theory, cometary life may already have arrived on the planet long ago. "Nature," he noted, "is always full of surprises." Copyright 1999 The New York Times Company
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 3 Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality From: Peter Brookesmith Mendoza <DarkSecretPB@compuserve.com> Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 21:32:55 -0500 Fwd Date: Wed, 03 Feb 1999 22:28:26 -0500 Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality With the compliments of the Duke of Mendoza: >From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 12:16:02 -0500 <chop chop> Oh, yawn. I should have known... I almost predicted... What do you think "rant" means? Try reading it again slowly. Do cheer up. best wishes Pseudopod D. Muscarine Dreadsome Drink
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 3 Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality From: Peter Brookesmith Mendoza <DarkSecretPB@compuserve.com> Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 20:47:09 -0500 Fwd Date: Wed, 03 Feb 1999 22:30:00 -0500 Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality With the compliments of the Duke of Mendoza: >Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 03:18:52 -0500 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> >Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >Please excuse length of this post. <post promptly snipped!> Not a bit, every word to the purpose, and you answered all my questions. Thankyou _very much_. Only one small quibble: >You conveniently leave out the fact that the 1979 event began >with a very close up UFO sighting over that building I took you >to. When the 'missing time' began I was running for my life in >terror from that thing I saw on my corner. From this discussion, yes. Not from the account in the book (see pages 112-113). I wasn't trying to avoid that issue; addressing the message to you, I rather coarsely neglected the bizarre and unaccountable possibility that not everyone on the list would have read the published version. >>"archaeological" material that certainly bears a relation to >>those "alien glyphs" I've seen, and that very probably derives >>from trance material, given what we know about their producers' >>parallel interest in hallucinogens, etc. >I know what you're referring to Peter and I don't recall ever >seeing anything quite like what I (and the others) drew. Not absolutely exactly like, as I recall, but sufficiently related to be provocative. Also (from memory) the symbols vary slightly from culture to culture. I will, when crunched foot lets me mince a trifle less effetely into the library - from where I have lately been hearing highly suspect sounds emitted by Brother TimeSpoke during my enforced absence, but that is another story - dig out some examples and send them to you. Of course, I wonder now what circumstances obtained (according to their recollections) when Budd's other subjects came upon this script. Just have to wait that one out, I guess. >>It would be a cat among >>pigeons to find that e.g. Dr 8o!la_ also had a whole three >>dozen alien scripts all alike but totally dissimilar from >>the Hopkins Collection. Aaaaiiiieee! >Yes it would indeed. Although what it mean to you if several >of them turned out to be identical? It would mean that I'd distribute arms to every able bodied man, shout "Revert to Plan A!", "Women and children first!" and (more sombrely) "The drums, Carruthers! The drums!" and nail the colors to the mast. I didn't get to be 33rd Degree whoops Duke of Mendoza without knowing how to repel a few boarders, what? Then, after a few pink gins and realizing nothing was about to happen soon, I might recall that Plan A says common symbolism among abductees across a range of investigators is at least suggestive of something happening in the brain wiring. And Plan B says reported symbolisms being common only to specific investigators suggests investigator effect. But still, let's see if there are more scripts out there first, not to mention try to analyse the one we know exists. Believe me, none of 239 Mtn Bgde bends over to pick anything up. Come to that, they don't drop anything, either. These girls are _awesome_! best wishes Planorbis D. Melecta Long Slow Buzz
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 4 Re: Premature Birth & Abduction? From: Peter Brookesmith Mendoza <DarkSecretPB@compuserve.com> Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 22:05:00 -0500 Fwd Date: Thu, 04 Feb 1999 06:35:41 -0500 Subject: Re: Premature Birth & Abduction? With the Duke's compliments: >From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: Re: Premature Birth & Abduction? >Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 16:16:58 -0500 >What you need to follow is a procedure like that used in the >best remote viewing research, or in a JUFOS piece on UFO stories >in the New York Times. Using the double-blind method would certainly be a very good wheeze. I haven't compared the current to the original version of the paper, but it's worth recalling that Lawson et al expected fewer correlations between "real" and "false" abduction stories than they found. Apart from likely lack of resources, it may be that at the time the surprise was sufficient to let them consider themselves objective. Obviously, 20+ years on, that wouldn't do now. Also the sample should be much larger than Lawson used. And I am not sure that giving the non-abductees a story structure to work on, the way he did, would be a good idea today. And there are lots of other refinements one could think of (and many did). Finding subjects uncontaminated by abduction accounts today could be just a trifle tricky, however. And your choice of judges could also be a delicate matter. But if the experiment can be repeated it should be. It remains, um, interesting that no one has yet. And so on. I sense topic drift. I could make it worse by remarking here, being too cheapskate to clutter the list with a separate two-line post, that it took me several bouts of missing time to write "Anna Karenina", but after a brief infinity disowned the piece as "an idle tale about a loose woman". On the other hand I could drag us back on course by asking if, when you (Greg) were nosing around Lawson's papers, you found any justification for my possibly false memory that he correlated particular abduction narratives with natural vs Caesarian births? best wishes Penmanship D. Myrealnameisleotolstoy Invisible Inker
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 4 Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality From: Brian Cuthbertson <brianc@freeside.fc.net> Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 21:28:02 -0600 (CST) Fwd Date: Thu, 04 Feb 1999 06:40:33 -0500 Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >From: Leanne Martin <leanne_martin@hotmail.com> >To: updates@globalserve.net >Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >Date: Tue, 02 Feb 1999 23:21:07 PST >>Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 10:38:48 -0600 (CST) >>From: Brian Cuthbertson <brianc@freeside.fc.net> >>To: updates@globalserve.net >>Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality <snip> >>So, wild speculation here: maybe one of the things that happens >>during that unremembered entry period is that the subject reacts >>"appropriately" (as so well described above) and is cleaned up >>by his/her hosts. How thoughtful of them :-) >>Just a random thought. >Brian, >Do they dry clean their knickers as well? Well, many abduction tales do indicate that by the time abductees become aware of themselves on the table, ready for an "exam", they're either wearing nothing at all, or are in some hospital-type gown. And from the accounts I've read, few if any abductees actually remember disrobing or changing clothes after boarding to attain this immodest condition. So it seems their hosts have managed at least a clothing switch during the unremembered boarding period. And if so, is it that much of a stretch to consider they might also do a little extra laundry as well, if only to ensure that our poor subject doesn't wake up back in his bed in less than optimal apparel? After all, if they've mastered the amazing, they probably have a decent handle on the mundane as well. Just wandering around in the weeds, -Brian
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 4 Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality From: Brian Cuthbertson <brianc@freeside.fc.net> Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 22:05:44 -0600 (CST) Fwd Date: Thu, 04 Feb 1999 06:42:44 -0500 Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 03:18:52 -0500 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> >Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >>Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 15:33:56 -0500 >>From: Peter Brookesmith Mendoza <DarkSecretPB@compuserve.com> >>Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> <snip> >>Even more interesting would be to discover >>that someone besides Hopkins had had subjects produce scripts >>just like those in his collection. >I've been curious about that myself! Maybe Greg can ask to look >at anything David may have in that category because he has >already seen what Budd has. Greg will be able to tell if there >are any (major) variations/deviations between them. Two cents on this for what its worth: In her recent book, "Glimpses of Other Realities: Volume II: High Strangeness", Linda Moulton includes in chapter 3 the story of an abductee named Jim Sparks, who consciously relates a series of abductions over the years during which he is taught an alien alphabet. The chapter includes clear examples of many of the figures, including how to draw them. In fact, one figure, plate 4, diagrams the entire alien alphabet, and shows which alien letters correspond to which English letters. There is also a figure (plate 5) which shows three types of alien script taught to Jim. The first is the simple alphabet, the second is a compact shorthand, and the final one is a circle with just a few odd "things" in it. The table illustrates how 20 pages of English text can be reduced to two pages of alien symbols, then to half a page of alien shorthand, and finally to the one circle containing a few very odd renderings. Finally,also reproduced there is a page of alien script written by abductee Betty Andreasson Luca. Might it be instructive to compare this material with what Hopkins has? Onward thru the fog, -Brian Cuthbertson
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 4 Re: RAMS - Cleanup The Corners From: Terry Blanton <commengr@bellsouth.net> Date: Wed, 03 Feb 1999 23:20:01 -0800 Fwd Date: Thu, 04 Feb 1999 06:45:16 -0500 Subject: Re: RAMS - Cleanup The Corners >Date: Wed, 03 Feb 1999 16:38:15 -0500 >From: Terry Blanton <commengr@bellsouth.net> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: Re: RAMS - Cleanup The Corners >>Date: Tue, 02 Feb 1999 19:26:58 -0600 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >>From: Michael Christol <mchristo@mindspring.com> >>Subject: Re: RAMS - Cleanup The Corners ><snip> >>Tell me something Robert. NASA was supposedly developing the >>Aero-Space Plane, the X-30. What has become of that program? I >>was thinking it was suppose to be flying by 1998 or 1999. Yet, >>now, I don't hear anything about it. >The X-33 prototype was to be tested this month but was delayed >due to a fuel tank problem. It has it's own web site at: >http://www.venturestar.com/ Oops! I forgot to tell you: you'll need the password since this is a TS project. Try: User ID: bovine$cat Password: rams Terry (nudge nudge)
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 4 Re: Premature Birth & Abduction? From: Judith Dale <judithdale@earthlink.net> Date: Wed, 03 Feb 1999 20:31:28 -0800 Fwd Date: Thu, 04 Feb 1999 06:49:03 -0500 Subject: Re: Premature Birth & Abduction? >From: Leanne Martin <leanne_martin@hotmail.com> >To: updates@globalserve.net >Subject: Re: Premature Birth & Abduction? >Date: Wed, 03 Feb 1999 14:40:14 PST >>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com> >>Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 15:49:42 EST >>To: updates@globalserve.net >>Subject: Re: Premature Birth & Abduction? >G'day Judith, Jim & List, >Yes! Lets please get down to 'brass tacks' here. Lets assume >that the fairies at the bottom of the garden are quite real, >too. What threat do they pose humanity. And what of the >leprechauns? And don't forget every other folkloric entity too . >. . Oh we'll be rooned I tell ye! >Why waste an ounce of brain time on urban mythology (unless >you're an urban mythologist) when concrete proof is absent? Greetings Leanne, Jim, and all, My research into mythology has led me to think that myths are based on a kernel of true experience, somewhere along the line. In traditional Lakota spirituality, there is the idea that the world of the Creator is one of Great Mystery, beyond the understanding of the common person. In this cosmology, the people of the Seven Campfires (the Lakota), were brought here from the stars, and the Star Brothers are thus considered relatives. In this cosmology, this just is, it is not something that is subject to being proven or disproven. Recently, I had a conversation with a co-worker, who is originally from India. She was raised as a Zoroastrian. In this cosmology, there is the thought that the teachings of this faith were brought by an angel. She asked if I thought the teachings could infact be from 'aliens'. I don't know, I gave her one of Zecharia Sitchin's books to read. She thinks much of his theory makes alot of sense. The stories of Faeries and Leprechauns are rife with the legends of humans being 'kidnapped' and taken to a place where time moves differently, thus causing 'lost time' to the humans. Could these really be stories of 'alien abductions' ? We say they're myths. Our history as humans has many stories that sure sound like the sightings and 'abductions' we know about now. Myth or truth? What 'proof' is needed today, to move these sightings and 'abductions' from myth to reality? We've got documents from the government, we've got witness testimony. What else would you like? I'm really curious :-). Judith Dale
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 4 Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality From: Peter Brookesmith Mendoza <DarkSecretPB@compuserve.com> Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 23:21:35 -0500 Fwd Date: Thu, 04 Feb 1999 06:58:27 -0500 Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality With the compliments of the Duke of Mendoza: >From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 16:42:27 -0500 >I've said this before, too, but evidently it bears repeating. >Many people contact abduction researchers (again, the ones I >know), but the possible abductees likely to get return phone >calls are the ones reporting a particular constellation of >consciously remembered experiences (lights in the room, >presences by the bed, missing time serious enough to have caused >an urgent search by family and/or police, and so forth). >Whether these experiences are as tangible as the signs of >burglary -- or whether they can reasonably be interpreted as >abduction indicators -- is quite another story. But abduction >investigators (again, the ones I know) don't proceed in the way >Peter implies. They'd be the first to tell you that not everyone >who thinks he/she is abducted really has been. I wasn't trying to imply abduction researchers (that you know) did proceed that way. Although "Missing Time" has a couple of instances in which the "abduction" is derived from initial reports a good deal less complex than, say, the Roper Poll's key five experiences. Read among the abductologists besides the ones you know, though, and you'll find plenty of instances in which the investigators have led the case by the nose, in some cases I suspect much to the amusement of the subjects who were having them on, and in others to their considerable pain. (See Kevin McLure's "Abduction Watch", passim, for some juicy examples of dodgy investigators and depressing results from the UK.) That's to leave aside the logical problems of proceeding from "symptoms". Even whirlwinds mess up apartments. Lights in the room, presences by the bed, missing time and missing persons, can all have mundane causes, even as a constellation. (This isn't an invite to recycle the Roper debate again... ) And, let's not forget, there are plenty of self-appointed abductees who bypass the known investigators entirely. Taken altogether, I would wager my usual dollar at evens that a rigorous, yea ruthless, analysis of every abduction claim in print and in unpublished files and on the net would still leave a very small minority that was entirely mysterious - all right, that's an overstatement - sufficiently unexplained in the majority of its integers to warrant reinvestigation. >One last word. If a tone of impatience is creeping into my >comments, it's because Peter, bless him, puts things very much >his own way -- and that way, according to me, is slanted to make >abduction investigators look far more careless than they really >are. My view is that abduction investigators are careless from the start because they think they are investigating abductions. If they just tried to find out what happened, and were not so wilfully ignorant of so-called "abnormal psychology" and a whole lot of other things, in the pursuit of their "evidence", we might know a lot more about people, perhaps much of it new and remarkable, if less about mythology. You might still end up with an apparently genuine abduction. It only takes one solid case to prove the point, after all. Investigators can take, and I'm not unaware that some do take, all the care they like in looking for potential "abductees" according to their own criteria, but that doesn't mean that's what they get. Or rather, it means they'll end up getting what they want, because of the way they interpret both their own criteria and what they hear from their subjects. "Proper" UFO investigators--of whom Allan Hendry springs to mind as the type and exemplar--take a *far* more neutral approach to their material and their witnesses than any abductologist I've ever come across. And just to be crystalline: I wouldn't waste my precious debunking time on abductions if I thought something deeply boring and essentially trivial was going on. Apparently, in some cases, something truly weird has happened to people, and deserves investigation. And the people themselves don't deserve investigators with an agenda. That way the hot tub of madness lies, real and metaphorical. (And bouncing among the bubbles therein are those with any other blanket explanations--"little nobodies", "hypnosis", "sleep paralysis"--of the phenomenon. What are known as, or thought of as, or feel like, abduction experiences are not necessarily all down to one cause, or one set, of causes, even if one were to wipe prurient aliens right off the board.) Now, I didn't say "intellectual dishonesty" once, but what difference did it really make? best wishes, and no less smiling, you tove! Purgative D. Milkwort Fluttering & Dancing in the Breeze
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 4 Re: RAMS - Cleanup The Corners From: Michael Christol <mchristo@mindspring.com> Date: Wed, 03 Feb 1999 22:59:47 -0600 Fwd Date: Thu, 04 Feb 1999 07:01:50 -0500 Subject: Re: RAMS - Cleanup The Corners >Date: Wed, 03 Feb 1999 13:02:41 +0000 >From: Robert A.M. Stephens <sti3818@montana.com> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: Re: RAMS - Cleanup The Corners >I think the x-30 is scrubbed. The latest USAF TS project for >airframe evaluation is the x-60 program. Have found little on >this save for the fact the craft is in the shape of a triangle. OK. Thanks Robert. I guess you didn't have any information on my friend Norris Collier. REgards, Mike
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 4 Re: Apocalypse Pretty Soon From: Sue Kovios <bradford@globalserve.net> Date: Wed, 03 Feb 1999 23:28:01 -0500 Fwd Date: Thu, 04 Feb 1999 07:05:37 -0500 Subject: Re: Apocalypse Pretty Soon >From: Sharon Kardol <sharon@hotmix.com.au> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: Re: Apocalypse Pretty Soon >Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 10:15:18 +0800 >How about some quality family entertainment like >Talk to the Apocalypse, or Herbie goes Apocalyptic..... How about 'Bill and Ted's Apocalyptic Adventure' or 'Apocalypse 'R Us' (since we are the masters of our fate) Actually hasn't it already been made into a motion picture. I thought Marlon Brando played Dr. M. Oh yah, that was Vietnam. What list is this? Is it the weekend yet? Oh no my label fell off. Eus Soivok Sue
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 4 The Millennium Report, February 1, 1999 From: psa@direct.ca (Paul Anderson - TMP / CPR-Canada) Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 21:05:23 -0800 Fwd Date: Thu, 04 Feb 1999 07:12:05 -0500 Subject: The Millennium Report, February 1, 1999 The Millennium Report February 1, 1999 Mystery Contrails and Weather Radar Anomalies over the US, Y2K Updates and more! _____________________________ Welcome to the first edition of The Millennium Report, the online news service of The Millennium Project, an independent research organization. TMP is a new research initiative started in January 1999 as an alternative source of news and information to the maintream media. TMP was founded by future studies researcher Paul Anderson, also director of Circles Phenomenon Research Canada. This summarized edition is available free by e-mail and is updated weekly or as breaking news develops; this copy is being sent to those already on the Circles Phenomenon Research Canada mailing list. If you do not wish to remain on this mailing list, please send your request and e-mail address to: psa@direct.ca. Full reports are available from the TMP web site links listed below. A number of reports here, as we are playing catch-up from the beginning of January. A lot going on (and we still have 11 months to go in '99!), including Y2K updates and links, plus breaking reports on the "mystery contrails" being sprayed over many locations in the US (and reportedly making many people ill; is the US military playing with fire, yet again?) and weather radar anomalies (connection with weather modification or crop circles or just radar glitches?), plus much more (see below)! Strange Days... Best wishes to all of you. Paul Anderson Founder / Director The Millennium Project _____________________________ In this update: Y2K, Mystery Contrails, Radar Anomalies Added to Special Research Projects Study Finds Evidence of Oldest Fossil Life - 3.7 Billion Years Old Thousands of Blackbirds Dying in Louisiana from Unknown Cause Confirmation: New NBC Documentary to Examine "The Hard Evidence of Aliens Among Us" Mysterious Ancient Circle in Miami Scientists Say Life Possible on Pluto's Moon Charon Astronomers Witness First Live Gamma Ray Burst The Planetary Society Supports Optical SETI New Spacecraft Design Combines Rockets and Helicopters Contrails: Poison from the Sky US Military to "Own the Weather" in 2025 UFO Roundup 4.4, January 25 A Skeptic's View of Contrail Mystery No Meteors Found Yet as Divers Examine Minnesota "Star Holes" Radar Expert Speaks Out on Anomalous Weather Radar Image Transcript of ZDTV Chat with Joe Firmage UFOs - 50 Years of Denial?: New Upcoming Documentary on The Learning Channel New Evidence of Noah's Flood? Odd "Star Hole" in Ice Found in Minnesota: Meteor? 1990 Photo of Prototype UAV Over Groom Lake? UFO Roundup 4.3 , January 18 Contrails Mystify, Sicken Americans Mystery Contrails May Be Modifying Weather Mystery Contrails: Secret Military Operation? Jet Contrails May be Sickening People Across the US Arthur C. Clark Warns of Y2K Chaos Unusual New "Emergency Broadcast System" Surprises TV Stations in US The Plan for Massive Military Mobilization: National Guard Exercises Set for May Y2K Test FEMA Urges Local Communities, Emergency Services Sector & Public to Get Ready Now for Y2K New Zealand Scientists Discover Planet that May Host Life: First Earth-Sized Planet Reportedly Found Orbiting Another Star Israeli Mid-Air UFO Explosion Analyzed A UFO "Fender Bender" in Chile...Pieces Recovered Missouri 1947 UFO Crash: Controversial New Web Site Offers "Proof" with Debris for Sale Number of Doomsday Groups Increases as Millennium Approaches Government Planning to Protect Earth from Space Creatures: New Plans to Guard Against Contamination from "Alien Microbes" Is Exotic Propulsion Technology Being Tested in Canada'a North?: Triangle Craft Reports from the Yuko Over 100 Snow / Ice Circles in Germany ____________________________ See the following web site links for full reports: Main Web Site: persweb.direct.ca/psa The Millennium Report: persweb.direct.ca/psa/tmr.html ____________________________ To be added to or removed from this mailing list, send your request and e-mail to: psa@direct.ca ____________________________ For further information or correspondence, contact: Paul Anderson Founder / Director THE MILLENNIUM PROJECT Main Web Site: http://persweb.direct.ca/psa The Millennium Report: http://persweb.direct.ca/psa/tmr.html Director CIRCLES PHENOMENON RESEARCH CANADA Affiliate of Circles Phenomenon Research International Main Web Site: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Cavern/3310 1999 Updates: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Cavern/3310/1999.html Representative BLT RESEARCH, INC. Suite 202 - 2086 West 2nd Avenue, Vancouver, BC V6J 1J4 Tel / Fax: 604.731.8522 E-Mail: psa@direct.ca
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 4 Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality From: Rebecca Keith <xiannekei@yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 21:10:21 -0800 (PST) Fwd Date: Thu, 04 Feb 1999 07:14:05 -0500 Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net> >Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >Date: Mon, 01 Feb 99 12:33:49 PST >>From: Bill Weber <koran@cchat.com> >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >>Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >>Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 00:57:58 -0500 >>>Bill, it would be a very significant area of research for >>>someone who was skilled in picking apart the data. >Rebecca and Bill, >In fact, someone skilled at picking apart the data has done so >at great length, namely Thomas E. Bullard, author of the massive >two-volume UFO Abductions: The Measure of a Mystery (1987; a >new, updated version is in the works) as well as numerous papers >and articles in IUR, JUFOS, Magonia, and elsewhere. His next >article appears in the next issue of IUR, where he responds to >the spurious charge that abduction testimony simply mirrors the >concerns of the abduction investigator. How can one obtain Bullard's two-volume set and/or the update version? When will the next IUR be available because I'd be most interested in seeing how Bullard explains what I perceive to be abduction investigator bias? -Rebecca
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 4 Re: RAMS - Cleanup The Corners From: Michael Christol <mchristo@mindspring.com> Date: Wed, 03 Feb 1999 23:09:57 -0600 Fwd Date: Thu, 04 Feb 1999 07:16:40 -0500 Subject: Re: RAMS - Cleanup The Corners >Date: Wed, 03 Feb 1999 16:38:15 -0500 >From: Terry Blanton <commengr@bellsouth.net> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: Re: RAMS - Cleanup The Corners >The X-33 prototype was to be tested this month but was delayed >due to a fuel tank problem. It has it's own web site at: >http://www.venturestar.com/ Hi Terry. Thanks for the address to the webpage. It is both interesting and disappointing. The X-30 was a true space plane. It would take off from a runway and fly directly in to orbit as any plane would. Upon completion of its flight, it would then land at any airport just as a conventional L-1011 would. The X-33 is a vertical take off plane...So, really it is a step back from the X-30, in my opinion and to my ultimate disappointment. Do you know anything about the X-60? REgards, Mike
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 4 Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality From: Rebecca Keith <xiannekei@yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 21:34:31 -0800 (PST) Fwd Date: Thu, 04 Feb 1999 07:21:56 -0500 Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 22:50:10 -0500 >>>From: Rebecca Keith <xiannekei@yahoo.com> >>>Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >>>Bill, it would be a very significant area of research for >>>someone who was skilled in picking apart the data. As the Duke >>>mentioned in another response, a serious attempt was made to try >>>to check this data out, but the suggestion was turned down by >>>Budd. I don't believe other researchers were contacted, but I >>>doubt the answer would be any different. I'm certainly not >>>qualified to do that kind of research, but I do think it is a >>>valid avenue of inquiry. >I wish I'd commented on this earlier. And maybe I missed a post >of Peter's that would shed some light on what Rebecca says here. I was referring to the time when John Powell, the Duke and John Velez were kicking around an idea of comparing some of the alien script. I think there was a bigger plan, as well, but I'd be hard-pressed to remember what it was. I'm sure that the idea was squelched by Budd, but then again, my memory isn't so great and I could be wrong. >But I was the intermediary between Peter and Budd while Peter >was writing his book, and I'm not aware that Peter ever asked >Budd for more information on the details we're talking about >here. Budd and Peter had one uncomfortable face to face meeting >(Budd was more uncomfortable than Peter was). But later on, Budd >gave Peter full answers to every question Peter asked him >through me. That wasn't what I was referring to, but I think as mentioned in another post of Peter's, both Hopkins and Jacobs have been somewhat stingy with their data. I just think if we are going to talk about TUDs (to use the Duke's acronym), more than one researcher needs to share those TUDs with the researcher analyzing the data -- and not just the alleged TUDs but the whole body of data because similarities can be very subjective, IMO. <snip> >But if now we're going to breed some kind of >myth that Peter sought this information and was rebuffed, I have >to say that I don't think it's true. I wasn't attempting to breed a myth for the Duke. -Rebecca
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 4 Re: 8/27/96 Re: MJ-12 Document From: Robert Todd <Bohica449@aol.com> Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 00:32:25 EST Fwd Date: Thu, 04 Feb 1999 07:25:53 -0500 Subject: Re: 8/27/96 Re: MJ-12 Document >From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: Re: 8/27/96 Re: MJ-12 Document >Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 17:33:43 -0400 >>Date: Tue, 02 Feb 1999 14:42:01 -0800 >>From: Ed Stewart <ufoindex@jps.net> >>To: updates@globalserve.net >>Subject: 8/27/96 Re: MJ-12 Document <snip> Friedman wrote: >Let us get facts straight: Ha! Fat chance! >1. I have never claimed to have had a TOP SECRET CLearance >although I did have a Q which gave me access to Secret >Restricted Data. On page 138 of 'Crash at Corona', Friedman claims: "Both authors handled materials classified top secret and higher, Friedman when in the nuclear industry and Berliner when in the air force." The logical inference is that Friedman had a TS clearance. Otherwise, he wouldn't have been authorized to 'handle' "top secret and higher" materials. Not only does Friedman infer that he had a TS clearance, he also infers that he had clearance for Top Secret/code word materials (as in 'higher' than TS). <snip> >3. I published in my "Final Report on Operation Majestic 12" 5 >formerly TS documents which did not have Control numbers, >whether Ed Stewart likes it or not. None of those five documents originated from the same place as the Cutler-Twining memo; that is, none of those five documents was found among the TS records in Record Group 341 (Air Force Headquarters). Friedman's argument is irrelevant, and deliberately misleading. >4. Judging by the Cutler Twining Memo, we are dealing with a >NSC/MJ-12 Special Studies Group. This is not part of the >Department of Defense. The NSC serves the President. It doesn't matter. It's where the record allegedly was "found" by Bill Moore and/or Jaime Shandera that counts. If one or the other didn't plant it in the Archives, it would have had a TS control number assigned to it. The number would have been assigned by the Air Force, not the NSC or White House. Of course, Friedman contends somebody on the Air Force declassification team planted the memo in the Archives for Moore/Shandera to find. Yeah, right. It doesn't seem to matter to Friedman that the records in question were reviewed for declassification by Air Force _and_ National Archives personnel both, and at no time did the memo surface -- and it would have surfaced because NSC materials require special handling. And, by Friedman's own admission, Moore and Shandera were the first researchers to review these records following declassification review. How odd. Just more of Friedman's _many_ misrepresentations. Robert Todd
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 4 Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality From: Rebecca Keith <xiannekei@yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 21:36:10 -0800 (PST) Fwd Date: Thu, 04 Feb 1999 07:29:25 -0500 Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 22:33:17 -0500 >>Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 22:49:34 -0500 >>From: Peter Brookesmith Mendoza <DarkSecretPB@compuserve.com> >>Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >>Even that wicked nasty debunker, my good friend Phil >>Klass, reserves his venom for abduction investigators, not >>abductees. This is consistent with his position on UFO >>investigators in general, as opposed to UFO witnesses in >>general. >Not so. He's scorned abductees as "little nobodies" who invent >(or delude themselves with) abduction stories to get on TV. >He and I had quite a riotous discussion about that. His initial >view was what I've just stated, that all abductees want to tell >their stories on television. This, of course, is not even >remotely true, and I asked him where he'd gotten this notion. >How many abductees did he know? "Only the ones I meet on TV >shows," he replied, utterly unaware that he'd just pulled the >rug, the floor, and the foundation of the house out from under >his position. Sounds as if Klass was defining all abductees as all the abductees he had been in contact with. Since I don't have my Appelle article handy, can you tell me if he dealt with factitious disorders in the JUFOS (I think) paper he wrote? If I remember correctly, the paper dealt with disorders that abductees aren't likely to suffer from (to put it simply). -Rebecca
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 4 Re: Mig-29 SMT Has Plasma Stealth System From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@get2net.dk> Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 06:19:54 +0100 (MET) Fwd Date: Thu, 04 Feb 1999 07:32:45 -0500 Subject: Re: Mig-29 SMT Has Plasma Stealth System On Wed, 03 Feb 1999, Leanne Martin wrote: >From: Leanne Martin <leanne_martin@hotmail.com> >To: updates@globalserve.net >Subject: Re: Mig-29 SMT Has Plasma Stealth System >Date: Wed, 03 Feb 1999 14:58:54 PST >>From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@get2net.dk> >>Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 01:54:52 +0100 (MET) >>Subject: Mig-29 SMT Has Plasma Stealth System >>To: updates@globalserve.net >>Recently I forwarded a TASS news item on the Russian plasma >>stealth already developed. See >>http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates/1999/jan/m30-016.shtml >>J. Pharabod, who alerted the Skunk Works mailing list to the >>TASS message, has just forwarded an interesting update. URL: >>http://www.ufomind.com/military/aircraft/skunkworks/mailing/msg02046.shtml >G'day Stig & List, >The above linked URL does not appear to work . . . Both links work for me. Best Stig
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 4 Re: Premature Birth & Abduction? From: Sharon Kardol <sharon@hotmix.com.au> Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 14:11:11 +0800 Fwd Date: Thu, 04 Feb 1999 07:34:37 -0500 Subject: Re: Premature Birth & Abduction? >From: Leanne Martin <leanne_martin@hotmail.com> >To: updates@globalserve.net >Subject: Re: Premature Birth & Abduction? >Date: Wed, 03 Feb 1999 14:40:14 PST >>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com> >>Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 15:49:42 EST >>To: updates@globalserve.net >>Subject: Re: Premature Birth & Abduction? >>>Date: Tue, 02 Feb 1999 12:13:34 -0800 >>>From: Judith Dale <judithdale@earthlink.net> >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >>>Subject: Re: Premature Birth & Abduction? >>>Let's get down to brass tacks here. Why is it happening? What if >>>anything, do we need to do to respond? Is it a threat to our >>>well-being as humans? Although, I must say, I believe we are so >>>much of a threat to ourselves, that an "alien" threat doesn't >>>seem much worse to me. >>Dear, dear Judith Dale... thank you. A breath of fresh air in >>a stale room full of rhino juice and Gripple Dripple... Finally! >>I think I love you, >G'day Judith, Jim & List, >Yes! Lets please get down to 'brass tacks' here. Lets assume >that the fairies at the bottom of the garden are quite real, >too. What threat do they pose humanity. And what of the >leprechauns? And don't forget every other folkloric entity too . >. . Oh we'll be rooned I tell ye! >Why waste an ounce of brain time on urban mythology (unless >you're an urban mythologist) when concrete proof is absent? G'day Leanne, This is my opinion, and only my opinion, unless anyone else agrees, but I think you're comparing apples with oranges here. The Adbuction phenomena has as much effort invested into it because soooooo many people have made abduction claims. And I'm not just talking about western countries or even just English speaking countries, but this occurs across the world and isn't limited to cultural beliefs (as many myths are). Perhaps if as many people claim to see the fairies, or other 'myths' as they do being abducted (by aliens), more energy would be tunneled into researching that phenomena as well. As I said, just my opinion. Cheers Sharon K
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 4 Re: 8/27/96 Re: MJ-12 Document From: Ed Stewart <ufoindex@jps.net> Date: Wed, 03 Feb 1999 22:39:26 -0800 Fwd Date: Thu, 04 Feb 1999 07:47:08 -0500 Subject: Re: 8/27/96 Re: MJ-12 Document >From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: Re: 8/27/96 Re: MJ-12 Document >Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 17:33:43 -0400 >>Date: Tue, 02 Feb 1999 14:42:01 -0800 >>From: Ed Stewart <ufoindex@jps.net> >>To: updates@globalserve.net >>Subject: 8/27/96 Re: MJ-12 Document >Let us get facts straight: Since Stanton Friedman seems to be interested in "let us get facts straight", a few corrections are in order because everytime Stanton Friedman speaks on security matters, only his ignorance and lack of relevant information becomes apparent. >1. I have never claimed to have had a TOP SECRET CLearance >although I did have a Q which gave me access to Secret >Restricted Data. A 'Q' only allows an individual access to nuclear data irrespective of what level clearance an individual has. A 'Q' by itself did not give Stanton Friedman access to Secret Restricted Data as alleged. To have access at that level, Friedman would have required a Secret clearance independent of 'Q'. Irrespective of the above, if Stanton Friedman had done his homework and researched that he alleges to have done after visiting 18 archives, he would have known that Top Secret documents have their own rules of handling. Any personal/virtual experience that may have been gained being exposed to confidential or secret documents is totally irrelevant to what is required securing Top Secret Documents. Stanton Friedman did not even know the regulations and executive orders that were applicable until I posted them to the list. It has been intellectually dishonest of Friedman to posture that his past "experience" working for various defense contractors was the basis for his professed "authority" on Top Secret documents. He brought that intellectual dishonesty to this mailing list when discussing Top Secret document procedures when he alleged and alluded to creating documents with no control numbers. That is a fact that is now part of the archive and can be independently verified by anyone on the internet. Also, Stanton Friedman elevated himself, from simply being intellectually dishonest when he states above: "I have never claimed to have had a TOP SECRET CLearance" Yet, from page 138 of _Crash at Corona_, Friedman claims: "Both authors handled materials classified top secret and higher, Friedman when in the nuclear industry and Berliner when in the air force." The logical inference is that Friedman had a TS clearance. Otherwise, he wouldn't have been authorized to "handle" "top secret and higher" materials. Not only does Friedman infer that he had a TS clearance, he also infers that he had clearance for Top Secret/code word materials (as in "higher' than TS). That is a fact that is now part of the archive and can be independently verified by anyone on the internet. >2. I have seen loads of formerly TOP SECRET Documents during my >many visits to Archives (18 at least count) So what? You never bothered to research what regulations were applicable to those documents when they were classified Top Secret for at least 20 years that you claim to be doing archive research in 18 different archives. I had to post that info to this mailing list because you were pleading ignorance of the fact and alluding to your "authority" on the subject which everybody now knows was a false appeal to authority that you never had. That is a fact that is now part of the archive and can be independently verified by anyone on the internet. >3. I published in my "Final Report on Operation Majestic 12" 5 >formerly TS documents which did not have Control numbers, >whether Ed Stewart likes it or not. It is not relevant what I like or not. The fact these Top Secret documents don't have control numbers indicates that proper procedures were not followed and are suggestive that the documents are either breaches of security, as previously explained, or bogus. None of those five documents originated from the same place as the Cutler-Twining memo; that is, none of those five documents was found among the TS records in Record Group 341 (Air Force Headquarters). Friedman's argument is irrelevant, and deliberately misleading. In over twenty years of archival "research", Stanton Friedman was not aware of the mentioned inconsistencies to ever research the genesis or provenance of those documents any further. As a matter of fact, when it comes to the genesis and provenance of the alleged MJ-12 documents, Stanton Friedman runs for cover and becomes "unavailable". Since the introduction of the alleged MJ-12 documents by Moore, Shandera, and Friedman, Friedman has refused to research and discuss the genesis/provenance of these alleged government documents. Yet, with no ownership ever having been established, that should be the first priority of anyone trying to authenticate the MJ-12 papers. >4. Judging by the Cutler Twining Memo, we are dealing with a >NSC/MJ-12 Special Studies Group. This is not part of the >Department of Defense. The NSC serves the President. So what? What you say has no relevance to anything under discussion. Your statement above employs circular logic. You are using a bogus document that at best is highly suspicious to make an assertion for the alleged validity of your statement which in itself is not relevant even if true. First of all, the fact that if the alleged Cutler Twining memo was an NSC document, it would have had to been declassified by the NSC in the first place before it could have been "mysteriously found" in the archives by your research associate William Moore. No such documentation exists, therefore supporting the alleged document to be bogus. Second, even you have admitted in the past that the alleged document had to have been improperly "placed" in the archives and then "mysteriously found by William Moore" on cue. The National Archives is on record as the alleged document not belonging where it was allegedly "found" and is on record as to its improprieties. What is relevant and important is where the record allegedly was "found" by Bill Moore and/or Jaime Shandera. If one or the other didn't plant it in the Archives, it would have had a TS control number assigned to it. The number would have been assigned by the Air Force, not the NSC or White House because of the location it was "found". Of course, Friedman contends somebody on the Air Force declassification team planted the memo in the Archives for Moore/Shandera to find. It doesn't seem to matter to Friedman that the records in question were reviewed for declassification by Air Force _and_ National Archives personnel both, and at no time did the memo surface -- and it would have surfaced because NSC materials require special handling. And, by Friedman's own admission, Moore and Shandera were the first researchers to review these records following declassification review. How odd! You won't research the genesis/provenance of this alleged document even though all the leads point to none other than your own research associates. Despite the improprieties with the Cutler Twinning memo, you conveniently "forget" that the NSC is part of the executive branch of the government and the applicable National Security Information Program executive orders that apply to the Department of Defense would also apply to the NSC. In other words, the argument for control numbers of Top Secret documents would still be valid either way making your statements above irrelevant and further evidence the Cutler Twinning memo is bogus. >5. It is simply too bad that Ed doesn't like my arguments. I >deal with the real world as it is and as it is testified to be >by Archivists who handle classified and fomerly classified >documents all the time. I realize that Ed believes he knows >more than they do and assumes that the rules about such matters >are identical and always adhered to in all governmental >agencies. This is false. Whether I like or dislike your proclamations is irrelevant. I have provided documentation that can be independently verified as to source, validity and context by anyone that is serious enough to verify my statements. What you allege above is entirely new. Name the alleged archivists that support your arguments for the alleged validity of the MJ-12 documents and provide copies of whatever letters you have substantiating this claim of yours instead of alleging general proclamations. I have copies of the archival letters received on MJ-12 by many of the researchers going back to the 1980s. Not one archivist is on record supporting your arguments. >6. I have on several occasions found "classified" documents in >boxes that had supposedly been declassiified. They were >sometimes not marked declassified. That is the real world So what? What relevance or linkage does the above proclamation have to do with the MJ-12 documents? I have on several occasions shown you to be intellectually dishonest, not only here but also in your book. Now, that is a fact, relevant to this discussion and unfortunately the real world. >7. Perhaps to soothe Ed I should have said when a memo goes from >an individual to his boss instead of from me to my boss so no >one could even think I was talking f my handling TS material.. >As indicated. The fact remains you didn't. You were got caught red-handed posturing on this mailing list alleging to be an authority based on your "experience" which you never had and are not! >8. Ed tells us that a TS Executive Order doesn't get a number >until it is declassified. No! I don't! I cited and quoted the Congressional Information Service as the source and it did not differentiate to levels of classified executive orders. If you would have read the quoted source carefully, you would see that it applied to any classified executive order, not just Top Secret. If you don't wish to independently verify the source documentation yourself, at least make the proper attribution instead of paraphrasing what amounts to be false statements and attributing them to me. >Since there is no indication that the >Truman Forrestal memo was declassified, could that not easily >explain why it did NOT have a normal number on it and the term >"special classified executive order" ( which seems to me a very >accurate description) was used to give it a useful >identification in a listing on a preliminary Briefing document. The document has been shown to be bogus in various independent ways previously by different researchers. Live with it. It is the real world. Bogus documents don't get classified or "declassified". The easiest explanation already has been provided for its improprieties. It has been shown to be bogus. No need to elicit a larger conspiracy. >I use the date when I invoice people as part of the invoice >number. The State Department uses the date as part of their >filing system number for a document.. I am sorry that dosn't >meet with Ed's approval, but that is the way it is. It is irrelevant whether it meets with my approval or not. A pound sign _#_ means number, not date. A pound sign _#_ was used. That is the real world! Not Stanton Friedman's alleged accounting techniques, or the alleged State Department procedures. Both are totally irrelevant to his argument for the validity of the alleged MJ-12 documents. >9. Obviously it would be useful if we had formerly highly >classified Briefings and special classified executive orders for >comparison. I have been unable to obtain even the 4 briefings >known to have been given by DCI Walter .B. Smith to Ike between >Nov. 4, 1952 and Jan. 9, l953. So what? The above is simply posturing without being able to show linkage or relevance to any argument related to MJ-12 discussions. No linkage has ever been shown by any MJ-12 supporter to any real document, person, resource or organization as having any connection to MJ-12. That is a fact and that is the real world. >Perhaps Ed with all his knowledge >about such matters can find some good examples. I have provided source documentation information to this list that can be independently researched and verified by any inclined list reader. The documentation provided supports my argument that the MJ-12 documents are bogus. All you have done is posture, display your ignorance on security procedures, and display a contemptible level of arrogance by attempting to pass off your intellectual dishonesty as alleged valid "research". You have been doing this to the ufological community for years. No more. Ed Stewart ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Ed Stewart ufoindex@jps.net|So Man, who here seems principal alone, There Is Something |Perhaps acts second to some sphere unknown. Going On! ,>'?'<, |Touches some wheel, or verges to some goal, Salvador Freixedo ( O O ) |'Tis but a part we see, and not a whole. ----------------ooOO-(_)-OOoo------- Alexander Pope, Essay on Man ------
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 4 Re: Gulf Sighting Report - U.S. Navy Witness From: Leanne Martin <leanne_martin@hotmail.com> Date: Thu, 04 Feb 1999 00:01:10 PST Fwd Date: Thu, 04 Feb 1999 07:52:44 -0500 Subject: Re: Gulf Sighting Report - U.S. Navy Witness >From: GT McCoy <gtmccoy@harborside.com> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: Re: Gulf Sighting Report - U.S. Navy Witness >Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 20:10:25 -0800 Avast ye land lubbers . . . >Ahoy, mates! & Mr. Field. >>From: Ben Field <ben@abcfield.force9.co.uk> >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >>Subject: Gulf Sighting Report - U.S. Navy Witness >>Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 19:19:01 -0000 >>Follows is a report BUFOD has recently received, does anybody >>have any idea weather this could have been a spinning satellite? >>I have tracked the REMOTE_ADDR and it tracks to a us.mil domain >It may be genuine or not, I'll continue... >>so it is genuine! >>All the best >>Ben Field >>BUFOD: http://www.abcfield.force9.co.uk >>RPIT: http://www.abcfield.force9.co.uk/rpit/ >>===REPORT=== >>First name: Xxxxx >>Surname: Xxxxx >>Age: 27 >>Occupation: U.S. Navy (active) >>Email address: (Received) >>Day sighting took place: Sunday >>Day (date): 24&25 >>Month sighting took place: January >>Year sighting took place: 1999 >>Time sighting took place: 1900 >>am/pm: PM >Everthing's great up to here. >>Description of area where sighting took place: Myself, a >>shipmate, and one other under NVG's or Night Vision Goggles >>witnessed a light inside orion's star system. Was this abord a ship? If so was the ship in motion? If so wouldn't the 'UFO' move relative to its background as the ship moved had the 'UFO' been a satellite that was close enough to have been seen? <snip> >>(Weather and Conditions) - Clear >>(Weather and Conditions) - Stars >>The UFO was sighted for Minutes: 20 If it was stationary (relative to Orion) for twenty minutes of Earths rotation then surely it was something further away than any satellite? >>Was any photographic record made at the time?: No >>The height the UFO was from the ground was about: in space >>permision to publish report: Yes >Okay, I'm not doubting the origin of the message its the >messenger >I doubt - GT McCoy Regards, Leanne ];-)
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 4 Re: Premature Birth & Abduction? From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net> Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 02:00:44 -0500 Fwd Date: Thu, 04 Feb 1999 07:57:15 -0500 Subject: Re: Premature Birth & Abduction? >From: Leanne Martin <leanne_martin@hotmail.com> >To: updates@globalserve.net >Subject: Re: Premature Birth & Abduction? >Date: Tue, 02 Feb 1999 23:18:49 PST >>>Is any one aware of any statistical link between premature birth >>>and claimants of abduction? >>>Or perhaps even late and C-section births? >>>Do researchers even bother to look at issues like these when >>>interviewing an 'abductee'? >>Why should they? >Looking at the techniques of 'abduction researchers' - do they >take things purely at face value or do they dig deeper? >Also, why not ask the question? 1. Of course the good ones dig deeper. Read the proceedings of the 1992 MIT conference. 2. Do abductees name "teal" as their favorite color more or less often than the population at large? Why not ask _that_ question? Greg Sandow
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 4 Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net> Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 02:29:40 -0500 Fwd Date: Thu, 04 Feb 1999 08:00:09 -0500 Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 21:32:55 -0500 >From: Peter Brookesmith Mendoza <DarkSecretPB@compuserve.com> >Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Oh, yawn. >I should have known... I almost predicted... >What do you think "rant" means? >Try reading it again slowly. Peter, you're an exquisite dancer. You could just have quoted Gilda Radner: "Oh, never mind!" Greg Sandow
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 4 Re: Open Letter: MJ-12 & Dr. Wood From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net> Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 08:45:27 -0400 Fwd Date: Thu, 04 Feb 1999 08:04:23 -0500 Subject: Re: Open Letter: MJ-12 & Dr. Wood >Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 12:08:59 -0500 >From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com> >Subject: Re: Open Letter: MJ-12 & Dr. Wood >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >>From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@get2net.dk> >>To: updates@globalserve.net >>Subject: Open Letter: MJ-12 & Dr. Wood >>Date: Tue, 02 Feb 1999 03:39:24 GMT >>Source: "alt.ufo.reports". >>Stig >*** >>From: "Sid Fiber" <dataVoid@hotmail.com> >>Newsgroups: alt.paranet.ufo,alt.ufo.reports >>Subject: Open Letter: MJ12 & Dr. Wood >>Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 16:49:58 -0800 >>(Background: This is an open letter to Dr. Bob Wood and his son >>Ryan Wood who are attempting to authenticate the validity of the >>MJ-12. These documents allegedly document the US government's >>efforts to conceal the discovery of extraterrestrial beings and >>crafts during the 1940s.) >>Dear Dr. Wood--> >>If Truman, Bush, Einstein, and others authored the Majestic 12 >>documents, then the methods of forensic-linguistics will >>conclusively prove it. >As interesting as this idea might be, the application of the >Foster technique may come up with a "false positive". This is >because we already have a few of the Cooper/Cantwheel documents >(which Wood and Wood are analyzing) which are clearly doctored >original documents. That is, you take an original document which >is in the style of a particulal person and then you change a few >words...just enough to change the meaning or context of the >document so that it fits the new meaning or context.>In this >case, take a real document and change some words to make it fit >the MJ-12/flying saucer/bodies etc., context.>Then a linguistic >analysis would probably indicate that the document was genuine. >Of course, if there was too much alteration, then the analysis >could well show it to be false. The result is: if the analysis >shows it to be true, the analysis MIGHT be correct...and it >might not; if the analysis shows it to be false, then it very >probably is false. Additional complicating factor are that many government documents are written by people other than the person who signs the document and Shakespeare's plays have lots of words. Most of the 'new' documents are relatively short. Usually accuracy increases as the quantity increases. STFriedman
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 4 X-33 Metallic Heat Shield 'Ready For Flight' From: NASANews@hq.nasa.gov Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 11:00:20 -0500 (EST) Fwd Date: Thu, 04 Feb 1999 08:08:11 -0500 Subject: X-33 Metallic Heat Shield 'Ready For Flight' Jim Cast Headquarters, Washington, DC February 3, 1999 (Phone: 202/358-1779) Dom Amatore Marshall Space Flight Center, Huntsville, AL (Phone: 256/544-0031) Ron Lindeke Lockheed Martin Skunk Works, Palmdale, CA (Phone: 805/572-4153) RELEASE: 99-9 X-33 METALLIC HEAT SHIELD 'READY FOR FLIGHT' Development of a low-cost space plane took a step forward last month when one of three technologies essential to its success was declared "ready for flight". The rugged, metallic thermal-protection panels designed for NASA's X-33 technology demonstrator passed an intensive test series that included sessions in high-speed, high-temperature wind tunnels. The panels also were strapped to the bottom of a NASA F- 15 aircraft and flight-tested at nearly 1.5-times the speed of sound. Additional laboratory tests duplicated the environment the X- 33's outer skin will encounter while flying roughly 60 miles high at more than 13 times the speed of sound. Also, a thermal-panel fit test successfully demonstrated the ease of panel installation and removal. The thermal protection system combines aircraft and space- plane design, using easy-to-maintain metallic panels placed over insulating material. As the X-33 flies through the upper atmosphere, the panels will protect the vehicle from aerodynamic stress and temperatures comparable to those a reusable launch vehicle would encounter while re-entering Earth's atmosphere. Tests have verified that the metallic thermal-protection system will protect vehicles from temperatures near 1,800 degrees Fahrenheit. "NASA is focusing on creating a next generation of reusable launch vehicles that will dramatically cut the costs associated with getting into space," said Dan Dumbacher, NASA X-33 deputy program manager. "One way to cut costs is to design rugged systems that require less maintenance and that are more airplane- like in their operations. "By developing and proving these systems, we're creating the ability to build space planes that eventually will fly to orbit, return for servicing, and launch again as often as today's commercial airplanes make scheduled flights," he added. Dumbacher is assigned to NASA's Marshall Space Flight Center, Huntsville, AL, the lead center for developing future space transportation systems. The remaining two technologies important for low-cost space access are an efficient propulsion system ideally suited to power a lifting body and, more importantly, lightweight-yet-strong composite cryogenic fuel tanks and structures to minimize vehicle weight. Work on those two challenging technologies continues as the X-33 program enters a phase of intense testing and qualification of the vehicle's components. NASA expects the metallic thermal-protection panels -- developed and built by team member BFGoodrich Aerospace/Aerostructures Group in Chula Vista, CA -- to dramatically cut maintenance time and costs associated with more fragile thermal-tile systems. Because the metallic panels on the lower surfaces of the X-33 make up the vehicle's windward, aerodynamic structural shell, the system also will obtain significant weight savings over traditional thermal systems, while being much more durable and waterproof. The X-33 is a half-scale technology demonstrator of a full- scale, commercially developed reusable launch vehicle (RLV) which Lockheed Martin has named "VentureStar", planned for development after the turn of the century. Through airplane-like operations and a single-stage-to-orbit design, a full-scale RLV could dramatically reduce the cost of putting payloads into space from $10,000 per pound to $1,000 per pound. The X-33 is scheduled to make as many as 15 test flights from Edwards Air Force Base, CA, to Dugway Proving Ground, UT, and Malmstrom Air Force Base, MT, beginning in 2000. Although suborbital, the X-33 will fly high enough and fast enough to encounter conditions similar to those experienced on an orbital flight path to fully prove its systems and performance. - end - * * * NASA press releases and other information are available automatically by sending an Internet electronic mail message to domo@hq.nasa.gov. In the body of the message (not the subject line) users should type the words "subscribe press-release" (no quotes). The system will reply with a confirmation via E-mail of each subscription. A second automatic message will include additional information on the service. NASA releases also are available via CompuServe using the command GO NASA. To unsubscribe from this mailing list, address an E-mail message to domo@hq.nasa.gov, leave the subject blank, and type only "unsubscribe press-release" (no quotes) in the body of the message.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 4 Re: Topic Drift From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net> Date: Thu, 04 Feb 1999 02:39:38 -0800 Fwd Date: Thu, 04 Feb 1999 08:37:15 -0500 Subject: Re: Topic Drift >Date: Wed, 03 Feb 1999 01:40:14 -0800 >From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: Re: Topic Drift >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >>From: Sean Jones <tedric@tedric.demon.co.uk> >>Subject: Topic Drift <snip> >I could not help but note "topic drift" on any number of threads >on various email lists. >I suppose it is inevitable. >There's little one can do about it besides complain. Maybe the >drift serves some good purpose at times, even if it is >unintentional. >So what I do? If I feel an urge to respond to an posting which >had drifted far from the originally thread, I simply change the >SUBJECT line to match! >[Larry also drops header lines too --ebk*] Hi Errol! Yes, but I don't exactly "drop" them, I sort of pull them out slowly, like a long hair found in the soup. Usually, these are perfectly redundant, like the undropped lines above: >Subject: Topic Drift which is quickly followed by: >>Subject: Re: etc: etc.; Topic Drift in the next header, and the next, on and on. I didn't think the line: To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> needed repeating in a long series of headers either. [True. Or at least it would be were the List the _only_ place where your posts are read. On average there are 500 hits daily at the UpDates Archive on Ufomind.com along with a large number of re-posts on other lists world-wide. There are also the individuals who 'swipe' messages from either the Archive or directly from here and post them to other lists without _any_ attribution to UpDates, usually by removing the .sig at the bottom and/or the 'To: ' line. Hence the my insistance that the four-line headers be included. I appreciate your motives Larry. --ebk] I had done this for brevity; hoping this was in the spirit of your other good suggestions, like keeping lines short..
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 4 Re: Media Alert - Rods TLC on Tonight From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com> Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 08:23:23 EST Fwd Date: Thu, 04 Feb 1999 08:47:04 -0500 Subject: Re: Media Alert - Rods TLC on Tonight >Date: Wed, 03 Feb 1999 11:23:36 -0500 >From: Terry Blanton <commengr@bellsouth.net> >To: updates@globalserve.net >Subject: Media Alert - Rods TLC on Tonight >"Strange Science" is scheduled to air a piece on the 'Rods' on >The Learning Channel tonight (2/3/99) at 10:00 pm EST. Check >your local listings. >More information on the subject is available at: >http://www.roswellrods.com Dear List.... I saw the show on TLC last evening. I admmit to being fascinated on several levels. The first is the reaction by, and the courtesy paid to, Phil Klass. It was noteworthy that the piece, at first glance, was treated fairly. And noteworthy too, was the defference paid to old Phil and his opinion. Also noteworthy was the treatment of the subject. It seemed to be rather professional in light of the past treatment of similar anomolies. Concluding... is this a sign of a weakening of the resolve of the debunker to malign? Or is it just that the appellation of "UFO" was completely missing from this subject matter, making it unworthy of malignant treatment with the usual level of chemotherapy? Will wonders never cease? Jim
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 4 Re: 'Apocalypse Pretty Soon' From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com> Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 08:38:08 EST Fwd Date: Thu, 04 Feb 1999 08:57:10 -0500 Subject: Re: 'Apocalypse Pretty Soon' >Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 10:37:12 -0800 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >From: Alex Heard <aheard@wired.com> >Subject: Re: 'Apocalypse Pretty Soon' >>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com> >>Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 16:48:15 EST >>To: updates@globalserve.net >>Subject: Re: 'Apocalypse Pretty Soon' >>> From: Mark Cashman <mcashman@ix.netcom.com> >>>Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 10:57:16 -0500 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >>>Subject: Re: 'Apocalypse Pretty Soon' >>>Mr Heard - >>>The last thing I would find "entertaining" is more attention >>>paid to these loonies. ><snip> >>Dear Mr. Cashman; >>I am incensed, appalled, that you would malign Mr. Heard because >>he takes these matters, these well respected teachers and >>researchers so seriously, that he gives them the attention they >>so faithfully deserve. Greer and Unarius are the stall warts of >>our science. >>Dear Got in Himmel, Cash.... next thing you'll be denigrating >>our beloved Dr. Gesundt. >>Is nothing sacred? >Both of you guys might want to read my book before you continue >opining; I know I asked for it by spouting off about my book, >uninvited, on your forum, but in all honesty, you don't know >what you're talking about. I take Greer and Unarius "seriously" >only as examples of how millennial beliefs play out in real >life. Not as noteworthy "ufologists." My article about Greer >from Outside magazine is availble on the web if you don't want >to buy the book. Dear Sirs, Madams, List, Mark, Alex and company.... Especially you Mark Cashman.... actually you don't know me. Not even my wife knows me. Maybe my mommy. Anyway, this post of mine was, as usual, tongue in cheek. Hard to talk that way. Ever tried it? I do, all the time. It is not only cathartic, but revealing of the psyche and the mentality of my Dr. Jaime Gesundt persona. It is my usual trickery at play here. By pointing to Cashman and giggling, I am actaully pointing to Heard and giggling. See? Seriously Mark, I did not mean to have this post taken in the way you took it. This is my fault. Interestingly I received a mail from someone we all know on this list all too well. He yelled at me in rather large capital letters and told me what he thought of my post. "It was unworthy of you Morty. Cashman is goning to think you were serious." So to my good friend and coleague, to Mark Cashman, and to my wife... cheeses guys, I was only kidding! For me, appologies to other than females is most unusual. This is one of those rare occasions where it happens, like pooping. For my penance I will refrain from the ingestion of Gripple for a period to be determined only by the quantity and quality of bugs crawling on my arms... my legs.... my God! Now they're on my drawers! Gesundt
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 4 Re: Premature Birth & Abduction? From: Brian Straight <brians@mdbs.com> Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 09:51:22 -0500 Fwd Date: Thu, 04 Feb 1999 17:54:43 -0500 Subject: Re: Premature Birth & Abduction? >From: Leanne Martin <leanne_martin@hotmail.com> >To: updates@globalserve.net >Subject: Re: Premature Birth & Abduction? >Date: Wed, 03 Feb 1999 14:40:14 PST >Why waste an ounce of brain time on urban mythology (unless >you're an urban mythologist) when concrete proof is absent? Well. Leanne, because it's interesting! Concrete proof there may never be, but there is no denying that many individuals claim to have experienced something extraordinary. The sheer scale of the phenomenon makes it worthy of study if not from a scientific, then at least from a sociological viewpoint. I would argue that it is a mistake to classify the abduction phenomenon as an urban myth. The urban myths you talk about are usually just that, and many of them are unique to western society, its technologies and its concerns. The term itself, 'urban myth,' denotes a certain level of social and technological development. Furthermore, in urban myth, the 'experiencer' is almost always one step or more removed from the reporter (i.e. most urban myths seem to begin with variations on the "a friend of a friend of mine" theme). What makes the abduction phenomenon different is that the information ususally comes first hand from the experiencer. Unlike most urban myth stories, such stories are usually self-consistent to a remarkable degree, and are testable, not in the scientific sense, but in terms of the self referentiality of their own 'worlds.' Thus many abductee stories, although on the surface outlandish, are remarkably consistent within the context of their self-generated worlds. Similar patterns can be discerned in experiences by individuals separated not only geographically, but culturally. This is an interesting a widespread phenomenon, confined not just to socienties permeated by western technology; it's archetypes resound through history. Its effects can be pernicious--misery, uncertainty, depression, insecurity. If the statistics are correct, hundreds of thousands of people around the world are affected by it. That makes it worth looking at very seriously. Just my .02. Brian
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 4 Re: Premature Birth & Abduction? From: Brian Straight <brians@mdbs.com> Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 09:51:22 -0500 Fwd Date: Thu, 04 Feb 1999 17:53:28 -0500 Subject: Re: Premature Birth & Abduction? >From: Leanne Martin <leanne_martin@hotmail.com> >To: updates@globalserve.net >Subject: Re: Premature Birth & Abduction? >Date: Wed, 03 Feb 1999 14:40:14 PST >Why waste an ounce of brain time on urban mythology (unless >you're an urban mythologist) when concrete proof is absent? Well. Leanne, because it's interesting! Concrete proof there may never be, but there is no denying that many individuals claim to have experienced something extraordinary. The sheer scale of the phenomenon makes it worthy of study if not from a scientific, then at least from a sociological viewpoint. I would argue that it is a mistake to classify the abduction phenomenon as an urban myth. The urban myths you talk about are usually just that, and many of them are unique to western society, its technologies and its concerns. The term itself, 'urban myth,' denotes a certain level of social and technological development. Furthermore, in urban myth, the 'experiencer' is almost always one step or more removed from the reporter (i.e. most urban myths seem to begin with variations on the "a friend of a friend of mine" theme). What makes the abduction phenomenon different is that the information ususally comes first hand from the experiencer. Unlike most urban myth stories, such stories are usually self-consistent to a remarkable degree, and are testable, not in the scientific sense, but in terms of the self referentiality of their own 'worlds.' Thus many abductee stories, although on the surface outlandish, are remarkably consistent within the context of their self-generated worlds. Similar patterns can be discerned in experiences by individuals separated not only geographically, but culturally. This is an interesting a widespread phenomenon, confined not just to socienties permeated by western technology; it's archetypes resound through history. Its effects can be pernicious--misery, uncertainty, depression, insecurity. If the statistics are correct, hundreds of thousands of people around the world are affected by it. That makes it worth looking at very seriously. Just my .02. Brian
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 4 Re: Open Letter: MJ-12 & Dr. Wood From: Rebecca Keith <xiannekei@yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 07:22:17 -0800 (PST) Fwd Date: Thu, 04 Feb 1999 17:58:40 -0500 Subject: Re: Open Letter: MJ-12 & Dr. Wood >From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: Re: Open Letter: MJ-12 & Dr. Wood >Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 08:45:27 -0400 <snip> >Additional complicating factor are that many government >documents are written by people other than the person who signs >the document and Shakespeare's plays have lots of words. Most of >the 'new' documents are relatively short. >Usually accuracy increases as the quantity increases. So, because of the 'complicating factor' the investigation shouldn't be done? Perhaps the complicating factor could be factored in to the equation. Let's not look for reasons _not_ to do research. Frankly, I think Barry Greenwood pretty well demolished the new MJ-12 papers, but I'm sure excuses will be made for his arguments as well. -Rebecca
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 4 Re: RAMS - Cleanup The Corners From: Terry Blanton <commengr@bellsouth.net> Date: Thu, 04 Feb 1999 09:56:59 -0500 Fwd Date: Thu, 04 Feb 1999 17:51:25 -0500 Subject: Re: RAMS - Cleanup The Corners >Date: Wed, 03 Feb 1999 23:09:57 -0600 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >From: Michael Christol <mchristo@mindspring.com> >Subject: Re: RAMS - Cleanup The Corners >Thanks for the address to the webpage. It is both interesting >and disappointing. >The X-30 was a true space plane. It would take off from a >runway and fly directly in to orbit as any plane would. Upon >completion of its flight, it would then land at any airport just >as a conventional L-1011 would. >The X-33 is a vertical take off plane...So, really it is a step >back from the X-30, in my opinion and to my ultimate >disappointment. Well, ya gotta walk before you can fly. >Do you know anything about the X-60? Sorry, Mike. Must be above my clearance level. Terry
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 4 New Image On RPIT Site From: Neil Morris <Neil@adm1.ph.man.ac.uk> Date: Thu, 04 Feb 1999 16:13:08 +0000 Fwd Date: Thu, 04 Feb 1999 18:02:08 -0500 Subject: New Image On RPIT Site All, I've today placed a further image on my RPIT site. This image is from the "balloon material" section of the RameyAlone photograph. The main image is just a simple enlarged section and has had NO enhancement, the inset has had some level stretching only, to promote the apparent "symbol" displayed. Follow the 4th Feb Update link from: http://adm2.ph.man.ac.uk/ftw-pics/new-1/index.htm Or the image can be directly had from (it's aprox 1300x750) http://adm2.ph.man.ac.uk/ftw-pics/new-1/rmblncrp.gif The faint "3" symbol marked in the inset with a bar-* can be found repeated in various places within the FW images and interestingly also within the Irving Newton image. Best Regards Neil. -- * * * * * * * * Neil Morris. /101101101 Virtual Bumper Stickers Inc 10110101010\ Dept of Physics. 1 1 Univ of Manchester 0 0 Schuster Labs. 1 Computer Programmers DO IT with BITS of BYTES 1 Brunswick St. 0 0 Manchester. 1 1 UK. \0101010110010110110010110101101011011110101011010/ G8KOQ E-mail: neil@adm1.ph.man.ac.uk Roswell and Alien Autopsy Archive-> http://adm2.ph.man.ac.uk/ Dave Willetts Home Page-> http://adm2.ph.man.ac.uk/dave_willetts/ Mike Sterling Home Page-> http://adm2.ph.man.ac.uk/mike-s/ Tim Morgan Home Page -> http://adm2.ph.man.ac.uk/tim-m/ * * * * * * * *
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 4 Re: Premature Birth & Abduction? From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net> Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 08:50:47 -0500 Fwd Date: Thu, 04 Feb 1999 19:00:12 -0500 Subject: Re: Premature Birth & Abduction? >Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 22:05:00 -0500 >From: Peter Brookesmith Mendoza <DarkSecretPB@compuserve.com> >Subject: Premature Birth & Abduction? >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>> >On the >other hand I could drag us back on course by asking if, when you >(Greg) were nosing around Lawson's papers, you found any >justification for my possibly false memory that he correlated >particular abduction narratives with natural vs Caesarian >births? <blinking eyes, finding myself unexpectedly back on topic> Nope, didn't see a word about it. But my own false memory is that I didn't spend much time on the birth stuff. What I remember (though of course after reading Elizabeth Loftus I'll never be able to swear to tell the truth in court testimony, should I ever give any) is looking at his contents page, seeing he'd written about birth imagery in rock videos, and, um, giggling. Greg Sandow
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 4 Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net> Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 09:33:21 -0500 Fwd Date: Thu, 04 Feb 1999 19:07:52 -0500 Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 21:34:31 -0800 (PST) >From: Rebecca Keith <xiannekei@yahoo.com> >Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >I was referring to the time when John Powell, the Duke and John >Velez were kicking around an idea of comparing some of the alien >script. I think there was a bigger plan, as well, but I'd be >hard-pressed to remember what it was. I'm sure that the idea was >squelched by Budd, but then again, my memory isn't so great and >I could be wrong. The bigger plan -- my own perhaps leaky memory tells me I started the discussion you mention -- was for Budd to submit his writing samples to a neutral team of scientists in appropriate fields. He did that, working through Stuart Appelle, the editor of JUFOS. >That wasn't what I was referring to, but I think as mentioned in >another post of Peter's, both Hopkins and Jacobs have been >somewhat stingy with their data. Depends on who you ask. Some comparisons might be in order, too. How many physicists will share data they haven't published yet? >I just think if we are going to talk about TUDs (to use the >Duke's acronym), more than one researcher needs to share those >TUDs with the researcher analyzing the data -- and not just the >alleged TUDs but the whole body of data because similarities can >be very subjective, IMO. Very! (I do believe I made exactly that point about Alvin Lawson's celebrated experiment.) We're overdue (as Jim Mortellaro has pointed out elsewhere) for another abduction conference on the scale of the one at MIT. This time it should include more skeptics, and more neutral people from outside the abduction world. Greg Sandow
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 4 Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 12:34:30 -0500 Fwd Date: Thu, 04 Feb 1999 19:15:38 -0500 Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 22:05:44 -0600 (CST) >From: Brian Cuthbertson <brianc@freeside.fc.net> >To: updates@globalserve.net >Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality ><snip> >Two cents on this for what its worth: In her recent book, >"Glimpses of Other Realities: Volume II: High Strangeness", >Linda Moulton includes in chapter 3 the story of an abductee >named Jim Sparks, who consciously relates a series of abductions >over the years during which he is taught an alien alphabet. Hi Brian, Could you scan those pages and send them to me privately so I can see them? I'll let you know if it's the same thing I was shown. Peace, John Velez ________________________________________________ jvif@spacelab.net INTRUDERS FOUNDATION/ABDUCTION INFORMATION CENTER http://www.if-aic.com "Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind." ________________________________________________
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 4 Re: Premature Birth & Abduction? From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net> Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 08:53:38 -0500 Fwd Date: Thu, 04 Feb 1999 19:10:03 -0500 Subject: Re: Premature Birth & Abduction? >Date: Wed, 03 Feb 1999 20:31:28 -0800 >From: Judith Dale <judithdale@earthlink.net> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: Re: Premature Birth & Abduction? >What 'proof' is needed today, to move these sightings and >'abductions' from myth to reality? We've got documents from the >government, we've got witness testimony. What else would you >like? I'm really curious :-). Hi, Judith. I'd say we need physical evidence, eyewitness reports of abductions, and government documents that aren't forgeries -- for a start. Greg Sandow
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 4 Mystery Skycrash UK Isle of Lewis? From: David Clarke <dclarke14@compuserve.com> Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 13:43:05 -0500 Fwd Date: Thu, 04 Feb 1999 19:18:03 -0500 Subject: Mystery Skycrash UK Isle of Lewis? Help and information wanted relating to sightings/mystery explosion at the Butt of Lewis, Outer Hebrides, Scotland, on the afternoon of October 26, 1986. New information has recently come to light regarding the origin of this incident via the Coastguard and RAF Fylingdales space tracking station in North Yorkshire. I hope to reveal this data in a forthcoming special report and via a forthcoming book. I'm looking for details of witnesses, newspaper and magazine reports, UFO reports and rumours, etc which appeared surrounding the original incident. Any help gratefully acknowledged.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 4 Re: RAMS - Cleanup The Corners From: Roger R. Prokic <rprokic@earthlink.net> Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 15:16:43 -0800 Fwd Date: Thu, 04 Feb 1999 22:36:14 -0500 Subject: Re: RAMS - Cleanup The Corners >Date: Wed, 03 Feb 1999 16:38:15 -0500 >From: Terry Blanton <commengr@bellsouth.net> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: Re: RAMS - Cleanup The Corners >>Date: Tue, 02 Feb 1999 19:26:58 -0600 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >>From: Michael Christol <mchristo@mindspring.com> >>Subject: Re: RAMS - Cleanup The Corners ><snip> >>Tell me something Robert. NASA was supposedly developing the >>Aero-Space Plane, the X-30. What has become of that program? I >>was thinking it was suppose to be flying by 1998 or 1999. Yet, >>now, I don't hear anything about it. >The X-33 prototype was to be tested this month but was delayed >due to a fuel tank problem. It has it's own web site at: >http://www.venturestar.com/ The X-30 was called NASP (National Aerospace Plane). It was cancelled in the 1990 time frame. I don't recall the exact year. The X-33 is a different plane, called the VentureStar which is being designed and built by Lockheed Martin (Skunk Works & Astronautics).
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 4 Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality From: Leanne Martin <leanne_martin@hotmail.com> Date: Thu, 04 Feb 1999 15:01:16 PST Fwd Date: Thu, 04 Feb 1999 22:40:44 -0500 Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 21:28:02 -0600 (CST) >From: Brian Cuthbertson <brianc@freeside.fc.net> >To: updates@globalserve.net >Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >>From: Leanne Martin <leanne_martin@hotmail.com> >>To: updates@globalserve.net >>Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >>Date: Tue, 02 Feb 1999 23:21:07 PST >>>Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 10:38:48 -0600 (CST) >>>From: Brian Cuthbertson <brianc@freeside.fc.net> >>>To: updates@globalserve.net >>>Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality ><snip> >>>So, wild speculation here: maybe one of the things that happens >>>during that unremembered entry period is that the subject reacts >>>"appropriately" (as so well described above) and is cleaned up >>>by his/her hosts. How thoughtful of them :-) >>>Just a random thought. >>Brian, >>Do they dry clean their knickers as well? >Well, many abduction tales do indicate that by the time >abductees become aware of themselves on the table, ready for an >"exam", they're either wearing nothing at all, or are in some >hospital-type gown. And from the accounts I've read, few if any >abductees actually remember disrobing or changing clothes after >boarding to attain this immodest condition. >So it seems their hosts have managed at least a clothing switch >during the unremembered boarding period. And if so, is it that >much of a stretch to consider they might also do a little extra >laundry as well, if only to ensure that our poor subject doesn't >wake up back in his bed in less than optimal apparel? After all, >if they've mastered the amazing, they probably have a decent >handle on the mundane as well. >Just wandering around in the weeds, >-Brian G'day Brian & List, If the 'abductors' are so keen on doing 'right' by their 'abductees' then how does one account for those who claim they ended up in some one else's clothes or their own clothes on inside out? It is too unimaginable that any super-intelligent, being capable of obviously high levels of technological development, be incapable of noting who wore what and how it was arranged on them? Regards, Leanne ];-)
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 4 Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality From: Peter Brookesmith Mendoza <DarkSecretPB@compuserve.com> Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 18:01:00 -0500 Fwd Date: Thu, 04 Feb 1999 23:02:42 -0500 Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality With the Duke's compliments: >Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 22:05:44 -0600 (CST) >From: Brian Cuthbertson <brianc@freeside.fc.net> >To: updates@globalserve.net >Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >Two cents on this for what its worth: In her recent book, >"Glimpses of Other Realities: Volume II: High Strangeness", >Linda Moulton includes in chapter 3 the story of an abductee >named Jim Sparks, who consciously relates a series of abductions >over the years during which he is taught an alien alphabet. >The chapter includes clear examples of many of the figures, >including how to draw them. In fact, one figure, plate 4, >diagrams the entire alien alphabet, and shows which alien >letters correspond to which English letters. Lord I do hope there are either more or fewer than 26 letters in that alien alphabet. No chance, I suppose, of posting a jpeg of the chart? >Might it be instructive to compare this material with what >Hopkins has? Chuckle. best wishes Parsleyleaf D. Mousserecipe Copyright Attorney & Whistle Sucker
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 4 Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality From: Peter Brookesmith Mendoza <DarkSecretPB@compuserve.com> Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 18:00:56 -0500 Fwd Date: Thu, 04 Feb 1999 22:57:36 -0500 Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality With the Duke's compliments: Going back to where we were a few days ago-- >From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: [Abduction - The Issue Of Reality] >Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 10:43:26 -0500 >But typically abduction skeptics don't even mention the full >range of possible abduction evidence -- for instance, the claim >made by some abduction investigators that abductees corroborate >even tiny unpublished details in each others' reports. --I am pleased to announce that someone (signing him/herself only "A Friend", of course) has sent me something that somehow I was unaware of, namely a skeptic addressing just this question, which I thought some of you in Erroland might like to see. I've appended a couple of notes of my own at the other end. best wishes Polkadot D. Mazurka Bojangles' Apprentice ----------------------------------- REALL News February 1994 ALIEN SUCKERS Martin Kottmeyer Abduction researchers believe an important source of verification of the claims of abductees lies in details that cases share but which are unpublished and unknown to the public. This is an important point since investigators in criminal cases routinely withhold details of cases from the media so they can trip up fraudulent confessors and copycat criminals. The repetition of the unpublicized details acts as a form of corroboration that the same individual is involved. Such statements would normally carry some weight, but skeptics tend to reserve judgment because UFOlogists usually find similarities at the expense of ignoring substantial differences. Philip J. Klass cites a number of examples in UFOs: A Dangerous Game. In the 1991 volume of the Journal of UFO Studies, John S. Carpenter has revealed one of these secret verifying details and provides an opportunity to assess how much weight to give this argument. Reporting on the double abduction of "Jennifer" and "Susan," Carpenter states one of the pair saw "little round suction cups on the bottom of their finger tips." He recalled hearing this same detail in a case reported by Budd Hopkins at a private abduction conference in Aspen, Colorado, six months earlier. Two other researchers immediately commented to Carpenter that they had encountered these details in some of their cases. Two years later an abductee who had never read a UF0 book also recalled round suction cups on the tips of four long fingers. The usefulness of the detail was finally compromised when a drawing was published in UF0 Crash at Roswell involving autopsies of aliens taken from the 1947 crash. The drawing showed sets of four circles on the tips of each finger. The crash-retrieval researchers had no direct association with abduction claims. There are numerous problems here. First, the autopsy drawing shows only circles. There is no notation that they are suckers. They could be protuberances, markings involving differences in pigmentation, or slight ridges analogous to human fingerprints. The text doesn't elaborate on what they are either. The nurse who provided the drawing described a number of things about the body such as its mummy-like fragility and the absence of opposable thumbs, but not that detail. Carpenter might be right in thinking they are suction cups, but it doesn't seem certain. These autopsy drawings are different from an autopsy drawing in Leonard Stringfield's 1982 UFO Crash/Retrievals status report. That one was based on an incident in the early 1950s and showed a four-finger arrangement with no opposable thumb. However, it was distinctly different in possessing elegantly long-pointed fingernails that looked unambiguously dangerous--that is very "un-fragile." There is no mention of suckers, and one senses they would not be workable in conjunction with those claw-like nails. Carpenter does not include drawings of Jennifer's alien's hands and finger-tip suction cups. There also are no drawings of the suction cup finger tips of Hopkins' private case or the other cases mentioned. This precludes detailed comparison. Do they all have the four-circle arrangement of the Roswell autopsy? Are the suckers single-lobed? Do they protrude from the axial tip of the finger, or are they perpendicular from the axis and protrude from the pad of the finger-tip? How large or small are they compared to the rest of the finger? There could be substantial differences which would alter one's assessment of whether these people are seeing the same things or not. Another problem is deciding how significant it is to have a detail that recurs in only five or six cases. There are hundreds of abduction cases. If we take the radical assumption that people are randomly creating each detail, even independent invention is bound to yield some repetition if only because the range of imaginable possibilities is finite. In addition, factor in the likelihood that people are likely to borrow details from the surrounding culture and the significance becomes even less. In the case of alien suction cups, there are significant cultural sources where this detail could have been borrowed from. Carpenter may be right in saying this detail never appeared in the UFO literature before the late spring of 1991. Offhand I can't recall anyone mentioning it before, and I am pretty sure I would have remembered because I would have enjoyed discovering such an instance too much. I say that because I loved George Pal's movie "War of the Worlds" and would have immediately recognized the influence. Every science fiction (SF) movie buff has the image of the suckered hand approaching the back of Sylvia and her subsequent scream of terror permanently etched in their memories as one of the best scenes of horrific suspense put to the screen. There is an amusing bit of history behind that image. There were no finger-tip suckers to the aliens in the original 1898 story by H.G. Wells. The Martians had degenerated to the extent that they were down to having a large head and two bundles of 8 delicate tentacles. They mainly just wanted our planet because theirs was dying from the long-term cooling of the sun. Cecil B. DeMille planned, in 1925, to make it into a film epic and had Roy Pomeray prepare an outline to make the story more cinematic. He changes things a tad. In the new version the aliens aren't looking for a new summer home; their "desire is to find beautiful women with whom they plan to breed and propagate a mixed Martian-Earth race which is to populate the Earth anew." The female encounters the three-foot tall amorphous Thing to her disgust and loathing and she is eventually captured by a huge, mechanical claw. Over the years several major film directors - Alfred Hitchcock, Sergei Eisenstein, and Alexander Korda - considered filming "War of the Worlds" but backed away when they learned the rights were locked up by Paramount. Around 1951, with flying saucer scares being the talk of the day, Paramount approached George Pal, who had just produced "When Worlds Collide" for them, with the idea of working up their property. Pal commissioned Barre Lyndon to do a new screenplay. It is Lyndon who introduces the suckers. He describes the encounter in almost Gothic tones. An arm that isn't an arm passes through an opening in a broken glass door. It has "ribbed degenerate musculature, thick veins," and ends "in a hand-shape with three finger-like suckers." They fasten on Sylvia's shoulder and draw her back. She tries to scream but paralysis takes her voice. Forrester, the man with her, tries to kill the creature and ends up chopping off the Thing's arm. Lyndon continues, "The suckers still cling to the girl's shoulder. Forrester pulls off the loathsome arm with the suckers tearing away part of her blouse." The dramatic function of the suckers is all too evident in Lyndon's screenplay. If this were the Eighties the scene would have been written to have had dead talons piercing deep into bleeding flesh; this being the Fifties, the horror is more superficial. Pal had the scene changed before the filming. The arm approaches Sylvia out of curiosity instead of for the purpose of capture. This had the effect of heightened suspense and doubtless plays better than Lyndon's version. We don't get the hanging dead arm, and that makes the suckers somewhat superfluous from a dramatic perspective. Aesthetically, it lends the hand a uniquely different shape and emphasizes the wholly alien character of the Martian as it moves in on Sylvia. Nobody quarrels with the results. George Pal's "War of the Worlds" has been justly praised many times over the years and regularly graces Ten-Best lists of SF films. It has played on TV many times. As recently as 1989, it inspired a short-lived series of the same name. (I don't recall if they used sucker fingers, but I doubt it.) The percentage of the population exposed to the image of the sucker fingers from this source alone cannot be negligible. Nor is it the only source. "Explorers" (1985) has a pair of goofy-looking aliens with conspicuous sucker fingers. Rob Bottin, the make-up designer indicated their form was no accident. The producer, Joe Dante, "wanted 'War of the Worlds'-type long skinny fingers and we did that with the feet also." Trekkies will recall the salt Vampire of the episode "The Man Trap" which sucked salt out of people leaving giant round hickeys on their bodies. I stumbled across one publicity shot from the virtually forgotten SF comedy series "Quark" that seemed to have a alien possessing sucker fingers. I have no reason to doubt there may be other obscure examples in the huge body of SF films and videos. Given these cultural sources, five or six cases of aliens with sucker fingers seem rather unimpressive. I am tempted to say it is rather less than one might expect given the generally Wellsian sources detectable in the abduction literature, but expectations are subject to many amorphous factors like selection effects by abductees and UFOlogists, the influence of current UFO literature and associated drawings, the unknown percentage of conscious hoaxing relative to unconscious borrowing, and so on. It is hard to know what to expect with respect to an issue like suckers on aliens. I consider it an open question whether the presence of suckers is a point in favor of a psychosocial view of the alien abduction phenomenon. The absence of drawings again precludes an assessment of the nature or degree of cultural influence versus independent invention. One point is easily grasped; the argument that abductions are real because of a corroboration using unpublicized details no longer holds. -------------------------------------------------------------- POSTER'S NOTES 1. Maybe Larry Hatch his Dater Bass (or anyone) can help with this: I have a vague memory that there is at least one CE3 case from the 60s or 70s that featured aliens with suckers on the fingers. In which case the fluence of the Wells film might be indirect, deriving from UFO folklore rather than the movie. 2. The problem with a TUD like finger suckers is this: if one *could* safely assume there were no cultural influence on the abduction accounts, one would expect more aliens to be reported with such an obvious feature, wouldn't one? (And in that it is different from alien writing, which not everyone would necessarily have the opportunity to see while captive.) One way out of that is to re-run the "24 Alien Races" scenario, of course, with all its difficulties.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 4 Re: Premature Birth & Abduction? From: Leanne Martin <leanne_martin@hotmail.com> Date: Thu, 04 Feb 1999 15:49:59 PST Fwd Date: Thu, 04 Feb 1999 23:14:19 -0500 Subject: Re: Premature Birth & Abduction? >Date: Wed, 03 Feb 1999 20:31:28 -0800 >From: Judith Dale <judithdale@earthlink.net> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: Re: Premature Birth & Abduction? <snip> >The stories of Faeries and Leprechauns are rife with the legends >of humans being 'kidnapped' and taken to a place where time >moves differently, thus causing 'lost time' to the humans. Could >these really be stories of 'alien abductions' ? We say they're >myths. Our history as humans has many stories that sure sound >like the sightings and 'abductions' we know about now. Myth or >truth? >What 'proof' is needed today, to move these sightings and >'abductions' from myth to reality? We've got documents from the >government, we've got witness testimony. What else would you >like? I'm really curious :-). G'day Judith, Like anyone interested in facts and not hearsay or stories to scare the gullible, I can only suggest one of these mysterious entities brought forth from their lair... What documents from which government prove what exactly (remember we're talking abduction here, right)? Yes many folk tales are based on some grain of truth. Before the Tasmanian Devil was identified as the nocturnal animal responsible for the blood curdling growls in the Tasmanian bush the early settlers were absolutely positive is was the devil himself come to punish them for their sins. The kernel of truth: there are blood curdling sounds in night. The untruth: it was the devil come to take the wicked sinners. The facts: the Tasmanian Devils make blood curdling growls and grunts in the night when arguing over a meal, a territory or a mate. Being nocturnally active, like most of Australia's mammals, it wasn't seen during the day when the settlers were up and about. The Australian native tribes have thousands of folk tales that are used to describe the creation of the world and its animals and people. To them they are truth incarnate. Every other cultural/religious group/tribe/cult/culture likewise has its lore. And just about everyone of them considers the beliefs of every other one of them to be mythically based BS whilst their own must, of course, be true. So, whose is the truth? Each set of lore has been around _forever_ but there is no 'evidence' for truth (quantifiable facts) for any of them. There is only _faith_ and the totemic scribblings on cave walls, bible pages, scrolls, tombs and temples, etc. Regards, Leanne ];-)
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 4 Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality From: Leanne Martin <leanne_martin@hotmail.com> Date: Thu, 04 Feb 1999 15:14:39 PST Fwd Date: Thu, 04 Feb 1999 23:09:13 -0500 Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 22:05:44 -0600 (CST) >From: Brian Cuthbertson <brianc@freeside.fc.net> >To: updates@globalserve.net >Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality <snip> >Two cents on this for what its worth: In her recent book, >"Glimpses of Other Realities: Volume II: High Strangeness", >Linda Moulton includes in chapter 3 the story of an abductee >named Jim Sparks, who consciously relates a series of abductions >over the years during which he is taught an alien alphabet. >The chapter includes clear examples of many of the figures, >including how to draw them. In fact, one figure, plate 4, >diagrams the entire alien alphabet, and shows which alien >letters correspond to which English letters. G'day Brian & List, Are we witnessing a 'cultural supremism' here? What of other languages - especially those that don't use a short alphabet such as Chinese and Japanese? Why should written english be so well catered for when it is such a recent language? Does it follow that if there are parallels with english letters that english grammar is paralleled as well? (Aside: Are we talking English english, American english, American Ebonic english, Oz english, Pidgin english, Phonetic english, etc.) Regards, Leanne ];-)
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 4 Re: Premature Birth & Abduction? From: Tim D. Brigham <devilsad@ksinc.net> Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 18:45:30 -0600 Fwd Date: Thu, 04 Feb 1999 23:28:27 -0500 Subject: Re: Premature Birth & Abduction? >From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: Re: Premature Birth & Abduction? >Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 02:00:44 -0500 >>From: Leanne Martin <leanne_martin@hotmail.com> >>To: updates@globalserve.net >>Subject: Re: Premature Birth & Abduction? >>Date: Tue, 02 Feb 1999 23:18:49 PST >>>>Is any one aware of any statistical link between premature birth >>>>and claimants of abduction? >>>>Or perhaps even late and C-section births? >>>>Do researchers even bother to look at issues like these when >>>>interviewing an 'abductee'? >>>Why should they? *snip* >2. Do abductees name "teal" as their favorite color more or less >often than the population at large? Why not ask _that_ question? >Greg Sandow Hi Greg, Leanne, etc, Yes, why _not_ ask that question? ;) It may seem completely trivial, but extremely high correlation between abductees and C-births would warrant further investigation, IMO (though I have yet to see anything to suggest to me that we would find such a correlation, who knows? If someone thinks it's there, they have my blessing to do a study on it). Many of our "most reliable" psychological tests are based simply on correlations between the test taker and a group of people found to have a certain diagnosis, and deviations from responses of 'normal' (shudder - I detest that word, but it's the most appropriate one to use here, I think) people. If 95% of 10,000 clinically depressed people list their favorite beer as Heineken and their favorite Tv show as Seinfeld, I'd find it rather intriguing, regardless of whether or not we can explain why at this point in time. It'd also lead me to think that if someone drinks heinken and watches seinfeld, they have a higher likelihood of being diagnosed as depressed (no offense to Jerry and co, or the makes of such fine beer;)) Causality, of course, if it exists in one way or another between the variables at all, can't be determined simply by the correlation. Because we can't explain a correlation doesn't mean that it's necessarily unimportant. Because we can't explain anything doesn't mean it's unimportant, almost all members of this list would attest to that. <grin> However, I also agree with Greg to some degree on this matter. It is more than a bit difficult to to take a measure of a person's _entire_ life history and personality without missing every possible, and probably unimportant, detail (as in my fairly lame example above, why the hell would I administer a questionaire to 10,000 clinically depressed people and ask them about TV and beer without some sort of hunch there's a correlation in teh first place?). Such work would probably be fairly specific in focus and be carried out by someone who believes they will find a correlation between the specific variables. There's way too much water here, kind of the opposite of shooting fish in a barrel. But since it comes up, can anyone on the list point me to research in which standardized psychological tests have been given to a large number of 'experiencers' by qualified psychologists? Apologies for the semi-coherent rant. It's been a long week <grin> BTW Greg, while I'm writing this up, I enjoyed your piece 'Mind-Body Problem'. Great work. Best, Tim )+( www.ksinc.net/~devilsad/ufo.htm The Devil's Advocate www.ksinc.net/~devilsad/ring.htm Operation MindPhuck "Better to go hungry than to feast on lies." )+(
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 5 Release From Nick Redfern From: Matthew Williams <truthseekers@btinternet.com> Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 00:29:40 -0000 Fwd Date: Fri, 05 Feb 1999 00:02:56 -0500 Subject: Release From Nick Redfern Dear UFO UpDates, I attach a text by Nick Redfern, UK UFO author which he asked me to specifically send you. Any quiereies and i can pass them on. He wanted you to have this release as it counters some statements which have recently been put out by UFO author Nick Pope... former SEC AS2 at the MOD London. Nick asks that the text be reproduced unchanged. Thank you Matthew Williams ----- The following is a release by UFO author Nick Redfern. No copyright exists on this text. for free distribution. Author may be contacted via his publishers or with small emails via this address... Release as follows: From Nick Redfern. Well as a result of my 2 December 1998 press releases, Nick Pope decided to write a reply (of sorts) in his column for the January 1999 issue of Georgina Bruni's Internet magazine, Hot Gossip. Pope misled readers of HG into believing that it was the official admission that more than 200 MOD originated UFO files were still closed to the public that led me to conclude he was 'kept in the dark' during his term with the Secretariat of the Air Staff. However, as Fox... er, sorry, Pope knows full well, my comments surrounding the allegations of a cover-up of UFO data by the MOD were not made in response to the sheer volume of records that were admitted to being on file (all of which, by the way originate from within the office of Sec (AS) 2a and its predecessors). Rather, my comments were made in response to the brief (and, I suspect, grudging) admittance that other MOD 'divisions and establishments' beyond the quaint little office that Pope worked in, also held 'some [UFO] files', but that these files could neither be identified or released. If, as Pope and the MOD repeatedly love to tell us, Sec (AS) 2a was the focal point for all UFO studies, why should certain files be held by other divisions and establishments? Moreover, I find it highly suspicious that the MOD can, with such apparent ease, identify all the files, which originated with Pope and Co. but cannot (for 'lack of funds') either identify, describe or release any of the UFO material held by the additional 'divisions or establishments'. This lame 'lack of funds' explanation is simply not good enough and is, I believe, the MODs way of stifling public and Parliamentary interest in, and awareness of, what goes on behind the scenes of the Air Staff. On a related matter, in the same column for Hot Gossip, Pope addressed the issue of RAF Rudloe Manor and the allegations concerning whether or not covert UFO investigations are or were undertaken from the base. Pope maintains that the answer is 'no'. However, the real picture is much murkier than that - as Pope himself well knows, but for reason best known to himself hasn't seen fit to discuss. First, when I conducted a tape-recorded interview with Pope in 1994, I brought up the allegations surrounding Rudloe and UFOs and asked him to comment. Without hesitation, he told me that all of the accounts concerning Rudloe were myths and 'self - fulfilling prophecies' and that, to his knowledge Rudloe had no role whatsoever in the UFO subject. Second, one of Pope's predecessors in the Air Staff (Clive Neville) told me in 1989 that the only time that Rudloe would become involved in the UFO subject would be if a member of the public filed a report with the base and from there their report would be sent to his office. And Neville was careful to point out that this wasn't limited to Rudloe - any airbase around the country would fulfil the same task. In view of the above, it was therefore most puzzling when in 1995 a statement was issued by Ruldoe and the MOD maintaining that until 1992 the base had acted as the RAF's 'UFO co-ordination point'. It should be noted that there has been some debate surrounding the wording of this statement; however in 1996, staff at Rudloe confirmed to me that the base was not just one of many co-ordination points dotted around the country, but was in fact the one and only official co-ordination point for UFO reports for the entire British Royal Air Force!! Moreover, it was admitted to me that it was entirely possible that this role had been fulfilled as far back as in the 1950s! To this date, Pope has not been able to explain satisfactorily why he did not know that Rudloe (and staff at Provost and Security Services' previous location at Government Buildings, Acton) fulfilled such a function on behalf of the Royal Air Force for what may have been 40 years! Clive Neville statement suggests that he did not know; and as Timothy Good revealed in Above Top Secret, MOD man Ralph Noyes was also unaware of the Rudloe-UFO connection. And while we are on the subject of Nick Pope's Hot Gossip column, it is interesting that he brings up again the matter of 'Flying Triangle' sightings of early 1993. In February 1999 issue of the news-stand magazine, Focus, Pope discussed he 1993 encounters and the fact that he wrote up a report at the time that was forwarded to his superiors. Pope publicly admits his belief that the incidents constituted a potential threat to the defence of UK. However when I interviewed him in 1994, what did he tell me when I asked him whether UFOs constituted a threat to the realm? 'There's no evidence of a threat to the UK that I've come across.' It cannot be argued that Pope reached his conclusion that UFOs are of defence significance after my interview with him in 1994, because in his book, 'Open Skies, Closed Minds', Pope states: "The 30-31 March [1993] sightings brought about a marked change in my own attitude. I would play no further part in bland platitudes about UFOs being 'of no defence significance'. Except when speaking to UFO investigators in 1994, it would seem...
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 5 US Executive Order on 'Alien Species' 02-03-99 From: Frances Emma Barwood <fbarwood@primenet.com> Date: Thu, 04 Feb 1999 17:46:35 -0700 Fwd Date: Fri, 05 Feb 1999 00:35:04 -0500 Subject: US Executive Order on 'Alien Species' 02-03-99 The forwarders thought it referred to plants or bacteria. We already have laws to deal with those. After I read it I thought it odd that it never really says that. It is worded creatively. What do you think? (ie, See sect.2a(2)(vi) "promote public education on invasive species and the means to address them;") Shouldn't it be 'label them'? Does 'address' mean speak to? And why is the Secretary of Defense on the committee if it is for weeds. It makes for interesting reading. Warmest regards, Frances http://www.barwood.com fbarwood@primenet.com P.O.Box 86189, Phoenix, AZ 85080-6189 602-780-7650 602-780-9125 fax Subject: [Fwd: Executive Order on Invasive Species] Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 10:58:27 -0600 From: "john ray" <John.Ray.1776@worldnet.att.net> To: "Frances Emma (AZ) Barwood" <fbarwood@primenet.com> http://www.newspage.com/cgi-bin/pnp.GetStory?story=v0203297.6us&topic=687&date=1 9990204&inIssue=TRUE&mode=topics Executive Order on Invasive Species February 4, 1999 U.S. Newswire via NewsEdge Corporation : WASHINGTON, Feb. 3 /U.S. Newswire/ -- The following was released today by the White House: By the authority vested in me as President by the Constitution and the laws of the United States of America, including the National Environmental Policy Act of 1969, as amended (42 U.S.C.. 4321 et seq.), Indigenous Aquatic Nuisance Prevention and Control Act of 1990, as amended (16 U.S.C. 4701 et seq.), Lacey Act, as amended (18 U.S.C. 42), Federal Plant Pest Act (7 U.S.C. 150aa et seq.), Federal Noxious Weed Act of 1974, as amended (7 U.S.C. 2801 et seq.), Endangered Species Act of 1973, as amended (16 U.S.C. 1531 et seq.), and other pertinent statutes, to prevent the introduction of invasive species and provide for their control and to minimize the economic, ecological, and human health impacts that invasive species cause, it is ordered as follows: Section 1. Definitions. (a) "Alien species" means, with respect to a particular ecosystem, any species, including its seeds, eggs, spores, or other biological material capable of propagating that species, that is not native to that ecosystem. (b) "Control" means, as appropriate, eradicating, suppressing, reducing, or managing invasive species populations, preventing spread of invasive species from areas where they are present, and taking steps such as restoration of native species and habitats to reduce the effects of invasive species and to prevent further invasions. (c) "Ecosystem" means the complex of a community of organisms and its environment. (d) "Federal agency" means an executive department or agency, but does not include independent establishments as defined by 5 U.S.C. 104. (e) "Introduction" means the intentional or unintentional escape, release, dissemination, or placement of a species into an ecosystem as a result of human activity. (f) "Invasive species" means an alien species whose introduction does or is likely to cause economic or environmental harm or harm to human health. (g) "Native species" means, with respect to a particular ecosystem, a species that, other than as a result of an intro-duction, historically occurred or currently occurs in that ecosystem. (h) "Species" means a group of organisms all of which have a high degree of physical and genetic similarity, generally interbreed only among themselves, and show persistent differences from members of allied groups of organisms. (i) "Stakeholders" means, but is not limited to, State, tribal, and local government agencies, academic institutions, the scientific community, nongovernmental entities including environmental, agricultural, and conservation organizations, trade groups, commercial interests, and private landowners. (j) "United States" means the 50 States, the District of Columbia, Puerto Rico, Guam, and all possessions, territories, and the territorial sea of the United States. Sec. 2. Federal Agency Duties. (a) Each Federal agency whose actions may affect the status of invasive species shall, to the extent practicable and permitted by law, (1) identify such actions; (2) subject to the availability of appropriations, and within Administration budgetary limits, use relevant programs and authorities to: (i) prevent the introduction of invasive species; (ii) detect and respond rapidly to and control populations of such species in a cost-effective and environmentally sound manner; (iii) monitor invasive species populations accurately and reliably; (iv) provide for restoration of native species and habitat conditions in ecosystems that have been invaded; (v) conduct research on invasive species and develop technologies to prevent introduction and provide for environ-mentally sound control of invasive species; and (vi) promote public education on invasive species and the means to address them; and (3) not authorize, fund, or carry out actions that it believes are likely to cause or promote the introduction or spread of invasive species in the United States or elsewhere unless, pursuant to guidelines that it has prescribed, the agency has determined and made public its determination that the benefits of such actions clearly outweigh the potential harm caused by invasive species; and that all feasible and prudent measures to minimize risk of harm will be taken in conjunction with the actions. (b) Federal agencies shall pursue the duties set forth in this section in consultation with the Invasive Species Council, consistent with the Invasive Species Management Plan and in cooperation with stakeholders, as appropriate, and, as approved by the Department of State, when Federal agencies are working with international organizations and foreign nations. Sec. 3. Invasive Species Council. (a) An Invasive Species Council (Council) is hereby established whose members shall include the Secretary of State, the Secretary of the Treasury, the Secretary of Defense, the Secretary of the Interior, the Secretary of Agriculture, the Secretary of Commerce, the Secretary of Transportation, and the Administrator of the Environmental Protection Agency. The Council shall be Co-Chaired by the Secretary of the Interior, the Secretary of Agriculture, and the Secretary of Commerce. The Council may invite additional Federal agency representatives to be members, including representatives from subcabinet bureaus or offices with significant responsibilities concerning invasive species, and may prescribe special procedures for their participation. The Secretary of the Interior shall, with concurrence of the Co-Chairs, appoint an Executive Director of the Council and shall provide the staff and administrative support for the Council. (b) The Secretary of the Interior shall establish an advisory committee under the Federal Advisory Committee Act, 5 U.S.C. App., to provide information and advice for consideration by the Council, and shall, after consultation with other members of the Council, appoint members of the advisory committee representing stakeholders. Among other things, the advisory committee shall recommend plans and actions at local, tribal, State, regional, and ecosystem-based levels to achieve the goals and objectives of the Management Plan in section 5 of this order. The advisory committee shall act in cooperation with stakeholders and existing organizations addressing invasive species. The Department of the Interior shall provide the administrative and financial support for the advisory committee. Sec. 4. Duties of the Invasive Species Council. The Invasive Species Council shall provide national leadership regarding invasive species, and shall: (a) oversee the implementation of this order and see that the Federal agency activities concerning invasive species are coordinated, complementary, cost-efficient, and effective, relying to the extent feasible and appropriate on existing organizations addressing invasive species, such as the Aquatic Nuisance Species Task Force, the Federal Interagency Committee for the Management of Noxious and Exotic Weeds, and the Committee on Environment and Natural Resources; (b) encourage planning and action at local, tribal, State, regional, and ecosystem-based levels to achieve the goals and objectives of the Management Plan in section 5 of this order, in cooperation with stakeholders and existing organizations addressing invasive species; (c) develop recommendations for international cooperation in addressing invasive species; (d) develop, in consultation with the Council on Environmental Quality, guidance to Federal agencies pursuant to the National Environmental Policy Act on prevention and control of invasive species, including the procurement, use, and maintenance of native species as they affect invasive species; (e) facilitate development of a coordinated network among Federal agencies to document, evaluate, and monitor impacts from invasive species on the economy, the environment, and human health; (f) facilitate establishment of a coordinated, up-to-date information-sharing system that utilizes, to the greatest extent practicable, the Internet; this system shall facilitate access to and exchange of information concerning invasive species, including, but not limited to, information on distribution and abundance of invasive species; life histories of such species and invasive characteristics; economic, environmental, and human health impacts; management techniques, and laws and programs for management, research, and public education; and (g) prepare and issue a national Invasive Species Management Plan as set forth in section 5 of this order. Sec. 5. Invasive Species Management Plan. (a) Within 18 months after issuance of this order, the Council shall prepare and issue the first edition of a National Invasive Species Management Plan (Management Plan), which shall detail and recommend performance-oriented goals and objectives and specific measures of success for Federal agency efforts con-cerning invasive species. The Management Plan shall recommend specific objectives and measures for carrying out each of the Federal agency duties established in section 2(a) of this order and shall set forth steps to be taken by the Council to carry out the duties assigned to it under section 4 of this order. The Management Plan shall be developed through a public process and in consultation with Federal agencies and stakeholders. (b) The first edition of the Management Plan shall include a review of existing and prospective approaches and authorities for preventing the introduction and spread of invasive species, including those for identifying pathways by which invasive species are introduced and for minimizing the risk of introductions via those pathways, and shall identify research needs and recommend measures to minimize the risk that introductions will occur. Such recommended measures shall provide for a science-based process to evaluate risks associated with introduction and spread of invasive species and a coordinated and systematic risk-based process to identify, monitor, and interdict pathways that may be involved in the introduction of invasive species. If recommended measures are not authorized by current law, the Council shall develop and recommend to the President through its Co-Chairs legislative proposals for necessary changes in authority. (c) The Council shall update the Management Plan biennially and shall concurrently evaluate and report on success in achieving the goals and objectives set forth in the Management Plan. The Management Plan shall identify the personnel, other resources, and additional levels of coordination needed to achieve the Management Plan's identified goals and objectives, and the Council shall provide each edition of the Management Plan and each report on it to the Office of Management and Budget. Within 18 months after measures have been recommended by the Council in any edition of the Management Plan, each Federal agency whose action is required to implement such measures shall either take the action recommended or shall provide the Council with an explanation of why the action is not feasible. The Council shall assess the effectiveness of this order no less than once each 5 years after the order is issued and shall report to the Office of Management and Budget on whether the order should be revised. Sec. 6. Judicial Review and Administration. (a) This order is intended only to improve the internal management of the executive branch and is not intended to create any right, benefit, or trust responsibility, substantive or procedural, enforceable at law or equity by a party against the United States, its agencies, its officers, or any other person. (b) Executive Order 11987 of May 24, 1977, is hereby revoked. (c) The requirements of this order do not affect the obligations of federal agencies under 16 U.S.C. 4713 with respect to ballast water programs. (d) The requirements of section 2(a)(3) of this order shall not apply to any action of the Department of State or Department of Defense if the Secretary of State or the Secretary of Defense finds that exemption from such require-ments is necessary for foreign policy or national security reasons. WILLIAM J. CLINTON THE WHITE HOUSE February 3, 1999.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 5 Re: Premature Birth & Abduction? From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net> Date: Thu, 04 Feb 99 20:46:10 PST Fwd Date: Fri, 05 Feb 1999 00:41:16 -0500 Subject: Re: Premature Birth & Abduction? >From: Brian Straight <brians@mdbs.com> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: Re: Premature Birth & Abduction? >Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 09:51:22 -0500 >>From: Leanne Martin <leanne_martin@hotmail.com> >>To: updates@globalserve.net >>Subject: Re: Premature Birth & Abduction? >>Date: Wed, 03 Feb 1999 14:40:14 PST >>Why waste an ounce of brain time on urban mythology (unless >>you're an urban mythologist) when concrete proof is absent? Wow. What a strange notion. Calling something a name doesn't make it so, of course, so that's not very interesting. Far more interesting in a perverse way is the suggestion that you don't investigate something until its existence is proved. Good thing science doesn't work that way, or we'd be wearing bearskins and living in caves. How can you prove -- or, for that matter, disprove -- something unless you investigate it? In point of fact, nothing is proved or disproved until it's investigated. Would we even know the world is round if somebody hadn't set out to investigate that unproved claim? My word. I'd suggest Leanne has a medieval mindset, but frankly, I don't think her mindset has made it that far along in intellectual evolution. Jerry Clark
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 5 Re: Open Letter: MJ-12 & Dr. Wood From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net> Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 22:47:55 -0400 Fwd Date: Fri, 05 Feb 1999 00:47:09 -0500 Subject: Re: Open Letter: MJ-12 & Dr. Wood >Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 07:22:17 -0800 (PST) >From: Rebecca Keith <xiannekei@yahoo.com> >Subject: Re: Open Letter: MJ-12 & Dr. Wood >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >>From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net> >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >>Subject: Re: Open Letter: MJ-12 & Dr. Wood >>Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 08:45:27 -0400 ><snip> >>Additional complicating factor are that many government >>documents are written by people other than the person who signs >>the document and Shakespeare's plays have lots of words. Most of >>the 'new' documents are relatively short. >>Usually accuracy increases as the quantity increases. >So, because of the 'complicating factor' the investigation >shouldn't be done? Perhaps the complicating factor could be >factored in to the equation. >Let's not look for reasons _not_ to do research. >Frankly, I think Barry Greenwood pretty well demolished the new >MJ-12 papers, but I'm sure excuses will be made for his >arguments as well. >-Rebecca Rebecca, where did that comment come from? I certainly didn't say the work shouldn't be done. As it happens earlier today at his request, I mailed Don Foster a copy of my book TOP SECRET/MAJIC and several papers about MJ 12 and have asked Bob Wood to send his stuff as well.. Of course the work should be attempted I merely pointed out that many of the documents are short as compared to the Bard's plays. I obviously totally disagree that Barry Greenwood or Ed Stewart or anybody else has demolished the older documents. The new ones are under investigation. You might note my comments about Barry's first article about the documents in TSM. Have you actually read it and my Final Report on Operation Majestic 12? Did you note that contrary to Ed Stewart's claims , the latter included 2 TOP SECRET documents from Robert Cutler that were in General Twining's files. at the Library of Congress Manuscript Division. Neither had control numbers. Same source, same recipient and some similar language to the Cutler -Twining memo. I suspect Ed will say they are fakes, too, despite where they originated because they weren't in the record Group at the Archives where he is sure they should have been. Let us not do Research by Proclamation Stan Friedman
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 5 Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality From: Brian Cuthbertson <brianc@freeside.fc.net> Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 20:52:58 -0600 (CST) Fwd Date: Fri, 05 Feb 1999 09:06:51 -0500 Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 12:34:30 -0500 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> >Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >>Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 22:05:44 -0600 (CST) >>From: Brian Cuthbertson <brianc@freeside.fc.net> >>To: updates@globalserve.net >>Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >><snip> >>Two cents on this for what its worth: In her recent book, >>"Glimpses of Other Realities: Volume II: High Strangeness", >>Linda Moulton includes in chapter 3 the story of an abductee >>named Jim Sparks, who consciously relates a series of abductions >>over the years during which he is taught an alien alphabet. >Hi Brian, >Could you scan those pages and send them to me privately so I >can see them? I'll let you know if it's the same thing I was >shown. >Peace, >John Velez Glad too. Keep an eye on your email box ... BTW, as you probably know anyway, the correct name of the author I mention above is Linda Moulton Howe.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 5 Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality From: Rebecca Keith <xiannekei@yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 19:11:24 -0800 (PST) Fwd Date: Fri, 05 Feb 1999 09:09:48 -0500 Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 09:33:21 -0500 >>Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 21:34:31 -0800 (PST) >>From: Rebecca Keith <xiannekei@yahoo.com> >>Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >>I was referring to the time when John Powell, the Duke and John >>Velez were kicking around an idea of comparing some of the alien >>script. I think there was a bigger plan, as well, but I'd be >>hard-pressed to remember what it was. I'm sure that the idea was >>squelched by Budd, but then again, my memory isn't so great and >>I could be wrong. >The bigger plan -- my own perhaps leaky memory tells me I >started the discussion you mention -- was for Budd to submit his >writing samples to a neutral team of scientists in appropriate >fields. He did that, working through Stuart Appelle, the editor >of JUFOS. I don't know who started it and it's not important, but I do think I remember John Powell being turned down. A more fair individual would have been hard to find. I'm glad that Budd has turned the stuff over to Appelle. I look forward to seeing the results of Appelle's work. >>That wasn't what I was referring to, but I think as mentioned in >>another post of Peter's, both Hopkins and Jacobs have been >>somewhat stingy with their data. >Depends on who you ask. Some comparisons might be in order, too. >How many physicists will share data they haven't published yet? Most physicists might have an idea where they are going with their data. Since abductions are an unchartered territory, I would think an artist, who does abduction work on the side, would want input from others. Is Budd concerned about someone stealing his work? >>I just think if we are going to talk about TUDs (to use the >>Duke's acronym), more than one researcher needs to share those >>TUDs with the researcher analyzing the data -- and not just the >>alleged TUDs but the whole body of data because similarities can >>be very subjective, IMO. >Very! (I do believe I made exactly that point about Alvin >Lawson's celebrated experiment.) Terrific. >We're overdue (as Jim Mortellaro has pointed out elsewhere) for >another abduction conference on the scale of the one at MIT. >This time it should include more skeptics, and more neutral >people from outside the abduction world. I agree. I thoroughly enjoyed reading The Proceedings and wish I still had the book with me. It was a great reference tool. -Rebecca
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 5 Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net> Date: Thu, 04 Feb 99 22:12:08 PST Fwd Date: Fri, 05 Feb 1999 09:12:18 -0500 Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 21:10:21 -0800 (PST) >From: Rebecca Keith <xiannekei@yahoo.com> >Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net> >>Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >>Date: Mon, 01 Feb 99 12:33:49 PST >>>From: Bill Weber <koran@cchat.com> >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >>>Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >>>Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 00:57:58 -0500 >>>>Bill, it would be a very significant area of research for >>>>someone who was skilled in picking apart the data. >>Rebecca and Bill, >>In fact, someone skilled at picking apart the data has done so >>at great length, namely Thomas E. Bullard, author of the massive >>two-volume UFO Abductions: The Measure of a Mystery (1987; a >>new, updated version is in the works) as well as numerous papers >>and articles in IUR, JUFOS, Magonia, and elsewhere. His next >>article appears in the next issue of IUR, where he responds to >>the spurious charge that abduction testimony simply mirrors the >>concerns of the abduction investigator. >How can one obtain Bullard's two-volume set and/or the update >version? >When will the next IUR be available because I'd be most >interested in seeing how Bullard explains what I perceive to be >abduction investigator bias? >-Rebecca Rebecca, We may be talking about two different things, and if I didn't make myself clear, I apologize. Most investigators into just about anything, not just UFO- and abduction-related phenomena, have biases. Nearly everybody goes into research expecting that at the end he or she will be able to detect or prove a particular something. That emphatically includes most scientists, who conduct their work with particular hypotheses (generally ones of whose validity they are more or less already convinced) in mind. In other words, "bias" -- if by that you mean a preconceived idea -- is not the sole possession of abduction investigators. The question, of course, has to be, how does that bias affect the work? Are the conclusions and data fatally colored by the investigator's preconceptions, or are those conclusions and data uncontaminated by them? With the particular question of abduction investigators, Eddie Bullard tried to conduct an empirical investigation into these sorts of questions. At the end of that investigation, documented in his monograph The Sympathetic Ear: Investigators as Variables in UFO Abduction Reports (1995), he found that abduction accounts tend to be pretty much alike whatever the preconceived notions of the particular abduction investigator. Naturally and properly, critics have tried to prove him wrong. In the next issue of IUR, Eddie Bullard responds to those critics. IUR is published quarterly for $25 a year from J. Allen Hynek Center for UFO Studies, 2457 West Peterson Avenue, Chicago, Illinois 60659. The next issue should be out in the later part of March. Jerry Clark
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 5 Re: Area 51 - The Alien Interview From: James Easton <pulsar@compuserve.com> Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 22:24:04 -0500 Fwd Date: Fri, 05 Feb 1999 09:14:19 -0500 Subject: Re: Area 51 - The Alien Interview Regarding: >From: Michel M. Deschamps <ufoman@ican.net> >Subject: Re: Area 51 - The Alien Interview >Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 01:07:22 -0500 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> Michael wrote: >>Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 10:50:04 -0500 >>From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com> >>Subject: Re: Area 51 - The Alien Interview >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >>I suspect that DirecTV refers to the satellite television >>company through which the original was recorded. >>Is your video of the entire 'Alien Interview' program (which was >>sold through the mail), or the program 'Strange Universe' which >>was referenced in the post that Errol mentioned? >>To my knowledge, the entire 'Alien Interview' was never shown on >television, and the 'Strange Universe' show was designed to hype >>it and sell more copies. >Steve, >The copy I have includes opinions and statements by Robert Dean, >Shawn Morton, Art Bell, David Adair (who claims to have worked >on a propulsion system), and Tom Coleman, President of Rocket >Pictures, who received the initial call from "Victor". >Steven Williams, who played a black "deep throat" on the >X-Files, narrates the presentation. We see "Victor" in shadow >being interviewed by someone. There are also black and white >re-enactments concerning EBE-1 and EBE-2. As for the Alien >Interview, it is first run without any word from anyone. Then >"Victor" explains what is unfolding during the playback. Also, a >review of the tape by Jim Dilettoso. There are also a couple of >Special Effects experts (Rick Baker included) who give their >opinions about the alien. This is what my copy consists of. I'd >like to know the date of airing. If unable to find, will mark >down closest date possible. In any event, thanks for the help. Michael, This might help, from: http://www.ufomind.com/area51/interrogation/ Alien Interrogation Video tape of the "interrogation" of an alien at Area 51, first introduced on "Strange Universe" on Apr. 14, 1997. (The participants listed below were those interviewed as experts on the Strange Universe broadcast.) David Darlington, Robert Dean, Sean Morton, Steve Neill, Victor, Whitley Strieber [End] There's some further info on the site. The full program as above has been broadcast in the UK and as with the 'Secret KGB UFO Files' I didn't notice any related media comment before or afterwards. Can't say I found the 'alien interview' remotely convincing or an impressive hoax. I would be interested in any further information about the tape you mentioned and when it was first seen. Before any public news (unless I'm mistaken) of the 'alien interview' footage, I was aware, as were others, of evidence that some 'sensational' new 'secret' film of an 'alien' was to be published and had a connection with 'Area 51'. This goes back to August 1996. It was certainly claimed and well documented in private correspondence from the time, that new footage was going to be marketed, although whether it was that same 'alien interview' remains unproven. There is a close relationship between the original source of the impending 'marketing' information received and a certain Mr Raymond Santilli. Ray was indeed one of the first I asked, in August 1996, about the claimed new footage. He denied having knowledge of the matter and I have no reason to believe he was directly involved, in any capacity. Again, I must emphasise there's no proof that 'new footage' was in fact the 'alien interview'. It would be helpful to confirm when rumours of the actual 'Area 51 alien interview' first surfaced. Following the success of the 'alien autopsy', I suppose an 'alien interview from Area 51', was a prime candidate for anyone hoping to cash in on the genre. The 'crop circle forming' has been done and admitted to be a hoax - big surprise that one - the splendid 'flying saucer' video from Mexico has evident hallmarks of a fake and 'Secrets of the KGB UFO Files' seems to have been written off with little more than abject scepticism. Paradoxically, wasn't that arguably, overall, the largest display of allegedly genuine and _tangible_ 'UFO/alien' evidence ever - 'crash site' footage with numerous people involved plus military equipment, an 'alien autopsy', supporting documents, film of the material being clandestinely purchased, etc.? If not, what was? James.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 5 Re: Abduction Hypotheses From: James Easton <pulsar@compuserve.com> Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 22:25:18 -0500 Fwd Date: Fri, 05 Feb 1999 09:18:10 -0500 Subject: Re: Abduction Hypotheses Regarding... >From: Sean Jones <seanj@tedric.demon.co.uk> >Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 21:28:02 +0000 >Subject: Re: Abduction Hypotheses >To: UFO UpDates <updates@globalserve.net> Sean wrote: >>From: John W. Ratcliff <jratcliff@worldnet.att.net> >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >>>Subject: Re: Abduction Hypotheses >>Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 22:18:19 -0600 <huge snip> >>(10)........add you own 'explanations', or hypotheses as you >>will. Lord knows I have, but none of them seem to wholly >>address the concerns of my friends who have been abused by these >>experiences. >John, no insult but you have missed two alternatives that have >solicited investigation. >10) Sleep disorder's/paralysis. >11) Astral travel/ OOBE's. >Both offer _credible_ possibilities. Sean, Some of the 'UFO' reports I'm familiar with, especially from the UK and which only later under hypnosis became 'abductions by aliens', share the same characteristics. Those involved were reportedly driving along a 'quiet road' when they encountered a 'UFO'. Subsequently, they claim to have noticed some time was unaccounted for. That's the mystery. STOP there. What's the explanation for this category of 'close encounter' UFO confrontation? If then under hypnosis, they fill in the apparent 'missing time' with accounts of 'aliens' taking them aboard a wondrous craft and performing medical experiments, often claiming to have suffered long- term ailments as a direct result, that's another mystery. Why do they 'recall' this and why do the 'aliens' often differ so dramatically? And how do we equate these cases with the possible explanations you mention? It might be worthwhile enquiring just how many cases like this are known and looking at the comparisons/differences. Off-hand, I can think of four in the UK and about the same in the US. I suspect more than that have been reported in the US and would be interested if anyone might help with some brief details of cases they're familiar with. An aside; does anyone know of an 'alien abduction' where the claimant(s) describe an 'entity' which had an almost 'heart-shaped' head and was 'wrinkled' - to quote, "as old as time itself". I know of one description from the UK and I'm sure I saw a similar sketch from a US report which Linda Moulton Howe was discussing at a lecture. It would, of course, be interesting if accounts from both sides of the water reported this quite distinctive appearance! James.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 5 Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net> Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 21:20:22 -0500 Fwd Date: Fri, 05 Feb 1999 09:22:29 -0500 Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 23:21:35 -0500 >From: Peter Brookesmith Mendoza <DarkSecretPB@compuserve.com> >Subject: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Read among the abductologists besides the ones >you know, though, and you'll find plenty of instances in which >the investigators have led the case by the nose, in some cases I >suspect much to the amusement of the subjects who were having >them on, and in others to their considerable pain. (See Kevin >McLure's "Abduction Watch", passim, for some juicy examples of >dodgy investigators and depressing results from the UK.) I don't doubt this for a minute (having read, for instance, Edith Fiore). It's sad, and so reminiscent of the therapists who persuade people they've been sexually abused. >And, let's not forget, there are plenty of self-appointed >abductees who bypass the known investigators entirely. So true. Though I'd opt for a softer term than "self-appointed." >Taken >altogether, I would wager my usual dollar at evens that a >rigorous, yea ruthless, analysis of every abduction claim in >print and in unpublished files and on the net would still leave >a very small minority that was entirely mysterious - all right, >that's an overstatement - sufficiently unexplained in the >majority of its integers to warrant reinvestigation. >My view is that abduction investigators are careless from the >start because they think they are investigating abductions. If >they just tried to find out what happened, and were not so >wilfully ignorant of so-called "abnormal psychology" and a whole >lot of other things, in the pursuit of their "evidence", we >might know a lot more about people, perhaps much of it new and >remarkable, if less about mythology. If abduction investigators believe abductions are real, it's perfectly reasonable for them to act on that belief. (And if abductions do turn out to be real, we'll be lucky they did.) Likewise, it's perfectly reasonable for you to criticize them. And now let's talk about "wilfully ignorant." My dear Peter, you're ranting again, this time without 'fessing up. What you mean to say, I think, is that abduction investigators don't take abnormal psychology enough into account, yet another perfectly reasonable point. But then your passion apparently carries you away, and soon you're making claims that, on a good day, even you will admit you can't possibly substantiate. How can you see inside abduction investigators' minds, to determine what they do or don't know? How can you see into their hearts, to determine why they haven't acquired the knowledge you're convinced they don't have? (All is forgiven if you tell me you're psychic, and e-mail the numbers I should play in the New York lottery.) To see how far into danger you've gone, let's ask which abduction investigators might be ignorant, wilfully or not, of abnormal psychology. No doubt you can cite some twits, of the kind easily savaged in Magonia. But let's restrict ourselves to well-known names. Does John Mack know abnormal psychology? I'm afraid we have to assume that he does, whatever we might think of his abduction work; the man's a psychiatrist. What about John Carpenter and Yvonne Smith? Therapists, both of them. Surely they've taken a course, at least. Edith Fiore and Richard Boylan are also therapists, bad at it though they may be. So they, too, can be presumed to know a thing or two about abnormal psych. On paper, in fact, all these people have better credentials on the subject than you might have. Dave Jacobs is a cultivated gentleman, widely read on many subjects. But I don't know how deep his psychological knowledge might be. About Budd Hopkins, though, I do have some idea. It's fascinating to see him talked about by some people on this list as if he were some kind of fool, and then see him with his friends, who include intellectuals of all stripes, psychoanalysts, Macarthur prizewinners, and -- particularly relevant here -- one of the nation's most famous psychologists, a man Budd has known for 40 years, an authority on some aspects of abnormal psychology whose books are known to any serious reader. You can hardly suppose Budd never talks to these people about his UFO work, though of course his views may or may not be theirs. >"Proper" UFO investigators--of whom Allan Hendry springs to mind >as the type and exemplar--take a *far* more neutral approach to >their material and their witnesses than any abductologist I've >ever come across. Ufologists investigating UFO sightings normally don't run into people as distressed as abductees. One thing that will _not_ work -- either humanly, or as the basis for an investigation -- is to question abductees in a detached, rigorous, neutral manner, as Hendry questioned those who reported seeing UFOs. Which is not to say you have to assume the reality of abductions. But you have to at least grant the possibility (so the abductees don't think you're saying they're crazy), and conduct your relationship, whatever form it takes, with far more supportive sympathy. If you don't do that, abductees won't trust you, and you'll never be able to carry out the sort of investigation Peter has in mind.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 5 Re: RAMS - Cleanup The Corners From: Michael Christol <mchristo@mindspring.com> Date: Thu, 04 Feb 1999 21:47:45 -0600 Fwd Date: Fri, 05 Feb 1999 09:24:31 -0500 Subject: Re: RAMS - Cleanup The Corners >Date: Thu, 04 Feb 1999 09:56:59 -0500 >From: Terry Blanton <commengr@bellsouth.net> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: Re: RAMS - Cleanup The Corners >>The X-30 was a true space plane. It would take off from a >>runway and fly directly in to orbit as any plane would. Upon >>completion of its flight, it would then land at any airport just >>as a conventional L-1011 would. >>The X-33 is a vertical take off plane...So, really it is a step >>back from the X-30, in my opinion and to my ultimate >>disappointment. >Well, ya gotta walk before you can fly. >>Do you know anything about the X-60? >Sorry, Mike. Must be above my clearance level. >Terry Grin...That's OK Terry. I appreciate you answering. REgards, Mike
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 5 Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality From: Judith Dale <judithdale@earthlink.net> Date: Thu, 04 Feb 1999 21:00:50 -0800 Fwd Date: Fri, 05 Feb 1999 10:52:00 -0500 Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >From: Leanne Martin <leanne_martin@hotmail.com> >To: updates@globalserve.net >Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >Date: Thu, 04 Feb 1999 15:01:16 PST >>Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 21:28:02 -0600 (CST) >>From: Brian Cuthbertson <brianc@freeside.fc.net> >>To: updates@globalserve.net >>Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >>So it seems their hosts have managed at least a clothing switch >>during the unremembered boarding period. And if so, is it that >>much of a stretch to consider they might also do a little extra >>laundry as well, if only to ensure that our poor subject doesn't >>wake up back in his bed in less than optimal apparel? After all, >>if they've mastered the amazing, they probably have a decent >>handle on the mundane as well. >>Just wandering around in the weeds, >>-Brian >G'day Brian & List, >If the 'abductors' are so keen on doing 'right' by their >'abductees' then how does one account for those who claim they >ended up in some one else's clothes or their own clothes on >inside out? >It is too unimaginable that any super-intelligent, being capable >of obviously high levels of technological development, be >incapable of noting who wore what and how it was arranged on >them? >Regards, >Leanne ];-) Shalom Brian, Leanne, & list, Perhaps they have trouble telling us apart, just as we do them :-D Judith
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 5 Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality From: Brian Cuthbertson <brianc@freeside.fc.net> Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 23:14:39 -0600 (CST) Fwd Date: Fri, 05 Feb 1999 11:09:49 -0500 Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 18:01:00 -0500 >From: Peter Brookesmith Mendoza <DarkSecretPB@compuserve.com> >Subject: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >With the Duke's compliments: >>Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 22:05:44 -0600 (CST) >>From: Brian Cuthbertson <brianc@freeside.fc.net> >>To: updates@globalserve.net >>Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >>Two cents on this for what its worth: In her recent book, >>"Glimpses of Other Realities: Volume II: High Strangeness", >>Linda Moulton includes in chapter 3 the story of an abductee >>named Jim Sparks, who consciously relates a series of abductions >>over the years during which he is taught an alien alphabet. >>The chapter includes clear examples of many of the figures, >>including how to draw them. In fact, one figure, plate 4, >>diagrams the entire alien alphabet, and shows which alien >>letters correspond to which English letters. >Lord I do hope there are either more or fewer than 26 letters in >that alien alphabet. No chance, I suppose, of posting a jpeg of >the chart? Hope springs eternal ... but you are correct - there are FEWER letters in the (first) alien alphabet learned by Sparks. There were actually also two other symbol sets: a shorthand variant, and an even more condensed form in which whole pages of text could apparently be represented in single "symbols". Unlike Latin letters, All three sets apparently had a 3-dimensional element to them, according to Sparks. And the alien number system went up only to 6; Sparks mentions deliberately trying to annoy his "teachers" by adding the symbol 7 each time he used their number set. Good man! Since you're interested, I'll mail a JPEG image of the chart to you privately; I doubt EBK would care to post such scans. John Velez has already requested and received a copy. It would be interesting to hear his comments on it.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 5 Re: Premature Birth & Abduction? From: Judith Dale <judithdale@earthlink.net> Date: Thu, 04 Feb 1999 21:40:44 -0800 Fwd Date: Fri, 05 Feb 1999 11:13:32 -0500 Subject: Re: Premature Birth & Abduction? >From: Leanne Martin <leanne_martin@hotmail.com> >To: updates@globalserve.net >Subject: Re: Premature Birth & Abduction? >Date: Thu, 04 Feb 1999 15:49:59 PST >>Date: Wed, 03 Feb 1999 20:31:28 -0800 >>From: Judith Dale <judithdale@earthlink.net> >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >>Subject: Re: Premature Birth & Abduction? ><snip> >>The stories of Faeries and Leprechauns are rife with the legends >>of humans being 'kidnapped' and taken to a place where time >>moves differently, thus causing 'lost time' to the humans. Could >>these really be stories of 'alien abductions' ? We say they're >>myths. Our history as humans has many stories that sure sound >>like the sightings and 'abductions' we know about now. Myth or >>truth? >>What 'proof' is needed today, to move these sightings and >>'abductions' from myth to reality? We've got documents from the >>government, we've got witness testimony. What else would you >>like? I'm really curious :-). >G'day Judith, >Like anyone interested in facts and not hearsay or stories to >scare the gullible, I can only suggest one of these mysterious >entities brought forth from their lair... > >What documents from which government prove what exactly >(remember we're talking abduction here, right)? Greetings back to you Leanne, Right, we are talking about abductions. You are correct to bring to my attention that, thus far documents released in both Britain and the US, have not addressed this issue in a convincing way (at least not to me). However, I've not read all that have been released. >Yes many folk tales are based on some grain of truth. Before the >Tasmanian Devil was identified as the nocturnal animal >responsible for the blood curdling growls in the Tasmanian bush >the early settlers were absolutely positive is was the devil >himself come to punish them for their sins. ><snip> >The Australian native tribes have thousands of folk tales that >are used to describe the creation of the world and its animals >and people. To them they are truth incarnate. >Every other cultural/religious group/tribe/cult/culture likewise >has its lore. And just about everyone of them considers the >beliefs of every other one of them to be mythically based BS >whilst their own must, of course, be true. >So, whose is the truth? Each set of lore has been around >_forever_ but there is no 'evidence' for truth (quantifiable >facts) for any of them. There is only _faith_ and the totemic >scribblings on cave walls, bible pages, scrolls, tombs and >temples, etc. >Regards, >Leanne ];-) Point well taken, however, I'm still curious to know what proof would be helpful to you? I am trying to understand here. Judith
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 5 Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality From: Brian Cuthbertson <brianc@freeside.fc.net> Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 23:43:18 -0600 (CST) Fwd Date: Fri, 05 Feb 1999 11:17:19 -0500 Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >From: Leanne Martin <leanne_martin@hotmail.com> >To: updates@globalserve.net >Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >Date: Thu, 04 Feb 1999 15:14:39 PST >>Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 22:05:44 -0600 (CST) >>From: Brian Cuthbertson <brianc@freeside.fc.net> >>To: updates@globalserve.net >>Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality ><snip> >>Two cents on this for what its worth: In her recent book, >>"Glimpses of Other Realities: Volume II: High Strangeness", >>Linda Moulton includes in chapter 3 the story of an abductee >>named Jim Sparks, who consciously relates a series of abductions >>over the years during which he is taught an alien alphabet. >>The chapter includes clear examples of many of the figures, >>including how to draw them. In fact, one figure, plate 4, >>diagrams the entire alien alphabet, and shows which alien >>letters correspond to which English letters. >Are we witnessing a 'cultural supremism' here? What of other >languages - especially those that don't use a short alphabet >such as Chinese and Japanese? Why should written english be so >well catered for when it is such a recent language? Does it >follow that if there are parallels with english letters that >english grammar is paralleled as well? >(Aside: Are we talking English english, American english, >American Ebonic english, Oz english, Pidgin english, Phonetic >english, etc.) We're talking the English (Latin) alphabet, not the English language per se. And as I noted in response to Mendoza's query, there is not a 1-to-one symbol match. Sparks actually mentions exposure to 3 symbols sets, of which the "alphabet" was just one. The other two are progressively more condensed and unfamiliar - the most condensed version consisting of cryptic symbols with the apparent capacity to hold the meaning of entire pages of our text. Sparks also notes that all three symbol sets are effectively 3-dimensional, compared to the 2D text you're reading now. Sparks voices the suspicion that the simplest set, most like ours, may have actually been specificaly designed with us in mind, and that the other two more cryptic sets might be closer to the native language of his "teachers". Onward thru it,
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 5 Re: Premature Birth & Abduction? From: Leanne Martin <leanne_martin@hotmail.com> Date: Thu, 04 Feb 1999 21:50:34 PST Fwd Date: Fri, 05 Feb 1999 11:20:44 -0500 Subject: Re: Premature Birth & Abduction? >From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: Re: Premature Birth & Abduction? >Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 02:00:44 -0500 >>>>Is any one aware of any statistical link between premature birth >>>>and claimants of abduction? >>>>Or perhaps even late and C-section births? >>>>Do researchers even bother to look at issues like these when >>>>interviewing an 'abductee'? >>>Why should they? >>Looking at the techniques of 'abduction researchers' - do they >>take things purely at face value or do they dig deeper? >>Also, why not ask the question? >1. Of course the good ones dig deeper. Read the proceedings of >the 1992 MIT conference. >2. Do abductees name "teal" as their favorite color more or less >often than the population at large? Why not ask _that_ question? G'day Greg & List, Because ones "favourite colour" (Oz english spelling) is not like the effect our birth may have on us for the rest of our lives. An analogy: Think of yourself as an onion. Deep within the onion is the core - your genetically established 'nature'. Around that are the inner layers of our pre-birth existence - being effected in a minor or major way by physical and/or chemical (incl. hormones, alcohol, nicoteine, drugs etc.) pressures during gestation. These may have an effect on your intellectual and/or physical development for the rest of your life (remember thalidomide and DES, even X-rays or excessive ultrasound.) Then a layer for the birth experience itself - your ability to deal with the trauma of birth may have been effected by the previous layers of your existence. How do you handle being prem, C-sectioned, breach, revived still birth, or even dead easy may effect you differently. Once you've completed all there is to with the birth there are neo-natal experiences. Wow - imagine the layer representing your bris! The painful reactions, sometimes near fatal, to injections. So many different layers to very complex entities... And to top it off you may by being "teal" <BG> Regards, Leanne ];-)
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 5 Re: 'Apocalypse Pretty Soon' From: Mark Cashman <mcashman@ix.netcom.com> Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 01:04:59 -0500 Fwd Date: Fri, 05 Feb 1999 11:22:20 -0500 Subject: Re: 'Apocalypse Pretty Soon' >From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com> >Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 08:38:08 EST >To: updates@globalserve.net >Subject: Re: 'Apocalypse Pretty Soon' >Seriously Mark, I did not mean to have this post taken in the >way you took it. Jim - I didn't react or "take it" in any way. Maybe you read a reply from someone else. I just chuckled. I do have a sense of humor. >This is my fault. Interestingly I received a >mail from someone we all know on this list all too well. He >yelled at me in rather large capital letters and told me what he >thought of my post. "It was unworthy of you Morty. Cashman is >goning to think you were serious." >So to my good friend and coleague, to Mark Cashman, and to my >wife... cheeses guys, I was only kidding! No offense was taken. ------ Mark Cashman, creator of The Temporal Doorway at http://www.temporaldoorway.com - Original digital art, writing, and UFO research - UFO cases, analysis, classification systems, and more... http://www.temporaldoorway.com/ufo.htm ------
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 5 Re: Premature Birth & Abduction? From: Jsmortell@aol.com Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 01:05:20 EST Fwd Date: Fri, 05 Feb 1999 11:24:31 -0500 Subject: Re: Premature Birth & Abduction? >>>From: Leanne Martin <leanne_martin@hotmail.com> >>>To: updates@globalserve.net >>>Subject: Re: Premature Birth & Abduction? >>>Date: Wed, 03 Feb 1999 14:40:14 PST >>>Why waste an ounce of brain time on urban mythology (unless >>>you're an urban mythologist) when concrete proof is absent? I have five good reasons... well, as good as the question, anyway... 1) Because 2) Put the lime in the coconut. And call us in the morning. 3) What's a Hen weigh 4) Only on alternate Thursdays... during the full moon 5) Yes 5a) No 5c) Uh huh If any letters or numb bers are out of sequence.... it's because I am drinking. OK, OK. I lied. It's only three good reasons and a few clunkers. Sue me. Gesundt
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 5 Re: Premature Birth & Abduction? From: Judith Dale <judithdale@earthlink.net> Date: Thu, 04 Feb 1999 22:35:17 -0800 Fwd Date: Fri, 05 Feb 1999 11:27:32 -0500 Subject: Re: Premature Birth & Abduction? >From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: Re: Premature Birth & Abduction? >Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 08:53:38 -0500 >>What 'proof' is needed today, to move these sightings and >>'abductions' from myth to reality? We've got documents from the >>government, we've got witness testimony. What else would you >>like? I'm really curious :-). >I'd say we need physical evidence, eyewitness reports of >abductions, and government documents that aren't forgeries -- >for a start. Thanks for your answer. Now, I may be jumping into a pile of blank here, but I am under the impression that there is at least one abduction event that was witnessed. Some fellow, Walton, I think. I may have the details wrong, but seems I've read that there were witnesses in that case. Are you saying that all of the government documents that have been released are forgeries ? I find that to be a depressing idea, though one I suppose , that is also not outside the realm of possibility. I do wonder if we aren't seeing the 'forest for the trees'. Each tree is so fascinating in and of itself, but are the individual trees distracting us? Another thought, perhaps non of the abduction events are abductions, but infact creations of the human brain/mind. Then perhaps we should look into the power of the human mind to so alter the mundane, that folks are able to develop physical marks and scars on themselves, immobilize those close by, and create mutually viewed images of 'alien' ships. Another possibility, nez pa? This is a serious question on my part. I find this possibility as intriguing as that of visitations and abductions by aliens. Perhaps we don't give ourselves enough credit as humans. Oh my, but we've gotten very far of the original subject of premature birth and abductions :-) Shalom, Judith It is all but a Great Mystery, challenging us with its solving.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 5 Re: RAMS - Cleanup The Corners From: Robert A.M. Stephens <sti3818@montana.com> Date: Fri, 05 Feb 1999 05:32:26 +0000 Fwd Date: Fri, 05 Feb 1999 11:33:26 -0500 Subject: Re: RAMS - Cleanup The Corners >Date: Wed, 03 Feb 1999 22:59:47 -0600 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >From: Michael Christol <mchristo@mindspring.com> >Subject: Re: RAMS - Cleanup The Corners >OK. Thanks Robert. >I guess you didn't have any information on my friend Norris >Collier. ====================== No Mike, I didn't. But that is not important in that I did not look at older NASA Directories. He might have been there and it doesn't show until you look at all records. -- sincerely, Robert A.M. Stephens NASA Documentation Program Stillwater Mills Contractor-Aerospace 406-745-3818 sti3818@montana.com http://198.116.116.10/gallery/arts/samples.html
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 5 Re: RAMS - Cleanup The Corners From: Terry Blanton <commengr@bellsouth.net> Date: Fri, 05 Feb 1999 09:12:18 -0500 Fwd Date: Fri, 05 Feb 1999 11:34:57 -0500 Subject: Re: RAMS - Cleanup The Corners >From: Roger R. Prokic <rprokic@earthlink.net> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 15:16:43 -0800 >Subject: Re: RAMS - Cleanup The Corners >The X-30 was called NASP (National Aerospace Plane). It was >cancelled in the 1990 time frame. I don't recall the exact >year. The X-33 is a different plane, called the VentureStar >which is being designed and built by Lockheed Martin (Skunk >Works & Astronautics). Right. However, the X-33 will prove some of the technology envisioned in the X-30. Terry
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 5 Re: Open Letter: MJ-12 & Dr. Wood From: Rebecca Keith <xiannekei@yahoo.com> Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 06:44:47 -0800 (PST) Fwd Date: Fri, 05 Feb 1999 11:38:26 -0500 Subject: Re: Open Letter: MJ-12 & Dr. Wood >From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: Re: Open Letter: MJ-12 & Dr. Wood >Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 22:47:55 -0400 >>>Additional complicating factor are that many government >>>documents are written by people other than the person who signs >>>the document and Shakespeare's plays have lots of words. Most of >>>the 'new' documents are relatively short. >>>Usually accuracy increases as the quantity increases. >>So, because of the 'complicating factor' the investigation >>shouldn't be done? Perhaps the complicating factor could be >>factored in to the equation. >>Let's not look for reasons _not_ to do research. >>Frankly, I think Barry Greenwood pretty well demolished the new >>MJ-12 papers, but I'm sure excuses will be made for his >>arguments as well. >Rebecca, where did that comment come from? I certainly didn't >say the work shouldn't be done. As it happens earlier today at To me it looked as if an excuse was being given on why it couldn't be accomplished. >his request, I mailed Don Foster a copy of my book TOP >SECRET/MAJIC and several papers about MJ 12 and have asked Bob >Wood to send his stuff as well.. Of course the work should be >attempted I merely pointed out that many of the documents are >short as compared to the Bard's plays. I'm glad to hear that you are cooperating and I hope the Woods will too. >I obviously totally disagree that Barry Greenwood or Ed Stewart >or anybody else has demolished the older documents. >The new ones are under investigation. It's perfectly OK with me if we disagree. >You might note my comments about Barry's first article about the >documents in TSM. Have you actually read it and my Final Report >on Operation Majestic 12? It's been a while and a lot of things have happened since then. Forgive me if I don't remember the details. <snip> >have been. Let us not do Research by Proclamation I don't consider myself a researcher, so I don't do research. If I ever do research again, I'll be sure not to it by proclamation. -Rebecca
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 5 Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com> Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 09:48:26 EST Fwd Date: Fri, 05 Feb 1999 11:43:02 -0500 Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 18:00:56 -0500 >From: Peter Brookesmith Mendoza <DarkSecretPB@compuserve.com> >Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >With the Duke's compliments: >Going back to where we were a few days ago-- >>From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net> >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >>Subject: [Abduction - The Issue Of Reality] >>Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 10:43:26 -0500 >>But typically abduction skeptics don't even mention the full >>range of possible abduction evidence -- for instance, the claim >>made by some abduction investigators that abductees corroborate >>even tiny unpublished details in each others' reports. >--I am pleased to announce that someone (signing him/herself >only "A Friend", of course) has sent me something that somehow I >was unaware of, namely a skeptic addressing just this question, >which I thought some of you in Erroland might like to see. >I've appended a couple of notes of my own at the other end. >best wishes >Polkadot D. Mazurka >Bojangles' Apprentice ----------------------------------- >REALL News February 1994 >ALIEN SUCKERS >Martin Kottmeyer >Abduction researchers believe an important source of >verification of the claims of abductees lies in details that >cases share but which are unpublished and unknown to the public. >This is an important point since investigators in criminal cases >routinely withhold details of cases from the media so they can trip up fraudulent confessors and copycat criminals. The >repetition of the unpublicized details acts as a form of >corroboration that the same individual is involved. >Such statements would normally carry some weight, but skeptics >tend to reserve judgment because UFOlogists usually find >similarities at the expense of ignoring substantial differences. >Philip J. Klass cites a number of examples in UFOs: A Dangerous >Game. In the 1991 volume of the Journal of UFO Studies, John S. >Carpenter has revealed one of these secret verifying details and >provides an opportunity to assess how much weight to give this >argument. >Reporting on the double abduction of "Jennifer" and "Susan," >Carpenter states one of the pair saw "little round suction cups >on the bottom of their finger tips." He recalled hearing this >same detail in a case reported by Budd Hopkins at a private >abduction conference in Aspen, Colorado, six months earlier. Two >other researchers immediately commented to Carpenter that they >had encountered these details in some of their cases. Two years >later an abductee who had never read a UF0 book also recalled >round suction cups on the tips of four long fingers. The >usefulness of the detail was finally compromised when a drawing >was published in UF0 Crash at Roswell involving autopsies of >aliens taken from the 1947 crash. The drawing showed sets of >four circles on the tips of each finger. The crash-retrieval >researchers had no direct association with abduction claims. >There are numerous problems here. First, the autopsy drawing >shows only circles. There is no notation that they are suckers. >They could be protuberances, markings involving differences in >pigmentation, or slight ridges analogous to human fingerprints. >The text doesn't elaborate on what they are either. The nurse >who provided the drawing described a number of things about the >body such as its mummy-like fragility and the absence of >opposable thumbs, but not that detail. Carpenter might be right >in thinking they are suction cups, but it doesn't seem certain. I can elaborate here, even if it wasn't clear in the text. Glenn Dennis, who provided the original drawing (which I have in my files, the original and not one of the many copies he made) said that the little circles on the fingers were suction cups. That point has always been clear to me, even if I didn't make it clear to others. >These autopsy drawings are different from an autopsy drawing in >Leonard Stringfield's 1982 UFO Crash/Retrievals status report. >That one was based on an incident in the early 1950s and showed >a four-finger arrangement with no opposable thumb. However, it >was distinctly different in possessing elegantly long-pointed >fingernails that looked unambiguously dangerous--that is very "un-fragile." There is no mention of suckers, and one senses >they would not be workable in conjunction with those claw-like >nails. Given the circulation of Len's Status Reports, it is unlikely that Glenn Dennis saw it at any point and it is doubtful if the source of his report would be Len. >Carpenter does not include drawings of Jennifer's alien's hands >and finger-tip suction cups. There also are no drawings of the >suction cup finger tips of Hopkins' private case or the other >cases mentioned. This precludes detailed comparison. Do they all >have the four-circle arrangement of the Roswell autopsy? Are the >suckers single-lobed? Do they protrude from the axial tip of the >finger, or are they perpendicular from the axis and protrude >from the pad of the finger-tip? How large or small are they >compared to the rest of the finger? There could be substantial >differences which would alter one's assessment of whether these >people are seeing the same things or not. >Another problem is deciding how significant it is to have a >detail that recurs in only five or six cases. There are hundreds >of abduction cases. If we take the radical assumption that >people are randomly creating each detail, even independent >invention is bound to yield some repetition if only because the >range of imaginable possibilities is finite. In addition, factor >in the likelihood that people are likely to borrow details from >the surrounding culture and the significance becomes even less. >In the case of alien suction cups, there are significant >cultural sources where this detail could have been borrowed >from. Carpenter may be right in saying this detail never >appeared in the UFO literature before the late spring of 1991. >Offhand I can't recall anyone mentioning it before, and I am >pretty sure I would have remembered because I would have enjoyed >discovering such an instance too much. I say that because I >loved George Pal's movie "War of the Worlds" and would have >immediately recognized the influence. Every science fiction (SF) >movie buff has the image of the suckered hand approaching the >back of Sylvia and her subsequent scream of terror permanently >etched in their memories as one of the best scenes of horrific >suspense put to the screen. Watching that film several months ago, I was struck by the similarities between what Glenn Dennis had supplied and the alien hand as shown in the film. Yes, there is a difference between the sucker pad fingers provided by Dennis and the those shown in the movie, but the similarities are difficult to ignore. <snip> >Forrester pulls off the loathsome arm with the suckers >tearing away part of her blouse." Apropos of nothing at all, Dr. Clayton Forrester is named in the acknowledgment section of Curtis Peeples WATCH THE SKIES. And yes, I know he was the evil genius who launched Mike Nelson into space on the Satellite of Love (MST 3K). <snip> >Given these cultural sources, five or six cases of aliens with >sucker fingers seem rather unimpressive. I am tempted to say it >is rather less than one might expect given the generally >Wellsian sources detectable in the abduction literature, but >expectations are subject to many amorphous factors like >selection effects by abductees and UFOlogists, the influence of >current UFO literature and associated drawings, the unknown >percentage of conscious hoaxing relative to unconscious >borrowing, and so on. It is hard to know what to expect with >respect to an issue like suckers on aliens. I consider it an >open question whether the presence of suckers is a point in >favor of a psychosocial view of the alien abduction phenomenon. >The absence of drawings again precludes an assessment of the >nature or degree of cultural influence versus independent >invention. But, if we want to see a clear case of an abduction report coming from the pop cultural sources, I suggest we reexamine the Herbert Schirmer. He was the Nebraska police officer who had his abduction reported in the Condon Committee study and who provided a drawing of what the alien creatures looked like. Now as many of you know I dabble here and there in science fiction. (See, Stan, it's really no big deal.) Anyway, I picked up a copy of the 1966 movie, 'Mars Needs Women' and was immediately struck by the look of the Martians as compared to the Schirmer drawing. Schirmer seems to be the only one who reported the alien's head gear with a little radio unit over the ear with an antenna sticking up, exactly the same costume in 'Mars Needs Women'. KRandle
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 5 Re: Premature Birth & Abduction? From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com> Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 09:54:07 EST Fwd Date: Fri, 05 Feb 1999 11:49:21 -0500 Subject: Re: Premature Birth & Abduction? >From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: Re: Premature Birth & Abduction? >Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 08:50:47 -0500 >>Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 22:05:00 -0500 >>From: Peter Brookesmith Mendoza <DarkSecretPB@compuserve.com> >>Subject: Premature Birth & Abduction? >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>> >>On the >>other hand I could drag us back on course by asking if, when you >>(Greg) were nosing around Lawson's papers, you found any >>justification for my possibly false memory that he correlated >>particular abduction narratives with natural vs Caesarian >>births? I have waited for someone to point out the other major flaw in Lawson's study but since it hasn't surfaced, let me do it. As Carl Sagan noted, and as I asked Lawson when I interviewed him on my radio show, "How does fetus know what it looks like?" If it doesn't know what it looks like, then it can't be providing a "memory" of it in its original state. Lawson's answer was, "It just does." Such an answer does not work. Anyone who thinks about it realizes that the fetus can't see itself in the womb because there is no reflective surface and there is no light. Lawson's Birth Trauma Hypothesis fails at that point. KRandle
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 5 Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net> Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 10:18:30 -0500 Fwd Date: Fri, 05 Feb 1999 11:51:53 -0500 Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 21:36:10 -0800 (PST) >From: Rebecca Keith <xiannekei@yahoo.com> >Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Since I don't have my Appelle article handy, can you tell me if >he dealt with factitious disorders in the JUFOS (I think) paper >he wrote? If I remember correctly, the paper dealt with >disorders that abductees aren't likely to suffer from (to put >it simply). Yes, Stuart talks about factitious disorders, which, he writes (quoting DSM IV, the standard compilation of mental disorders) "refers to individuals who feign physical or psychological illness where 'the motivation for the behavior is to assume the sick role.'" In other words, people with this disorder have a need to be sick, and, as DSM explains, they tend to say "yes" when their doctors ask if they have various symptoms. Thus they might be quick to agree that they'd been abducted, if someone suggested that to them. Stuart comments: "Despite some parallels with abduction accounts, there are a number of characteristics of factitious disorder that make it an unlikely source of abdcution hoaxes. Sofferers are likely to have an extensive history of hospitalizations or treatment interventions, be extremely resistant to giving up the role as patient, and are reluctant, vague, and inconsistent when asked to provide information in detail. These and other differential diagnoses are not charactersitic of the vast majority of abduction experiencers." Stuart's paper -- "The Abduction Experience: A Critical Evaluation of Theory and Evidence" (Journal of UFO Studies, New Series, Vol. 6, 1995/1996) -- does indeed deal with many disorders that abductees aren't likely to have. That's not his fault. He's reviewing theories proposed by others, and some of those theories (as he points out) are pretty farfetched. The point of his lengthy study (41 pages, with an additional seven pages of references) is to evaluate every published explanation of the abduction phenomenon, including, of course, the idea that abductions are real. His conclusions challenge both believers and skeptics. (He's professor of psychology and head of the psychology department at the State University of New York at Brockport.) Here, so everyone can see the scope of his work, are the explanations he considers: Hoaxes (wtih a subcategory of mental disorders, including factitious disorders) Suscsceptibility to Suggestion, a category that includes Hypnotic memory and hypnotizability, fantasy proneness, and false memory syndrome. Personality disorders: the boundary-deficit hypothesis; escape-from-self and masochistic fantasies; the psychically sensitive personality. Sleep anamolies. Psychopathology. Psychodynamic theories: screen memories for childhood abuse; birth memories; abortion anxiety; the collective unconscious. Environmental theories: tectonic stress and "earth lights"; allergic reactions. The Extraterrrestrial Hypothesis. Once again, let me stress that he's evaluating explanations published by others, not attempting to find an explanation himself, or to think of new possibilities that haven't yet appeared in the literature. Somebody, somewhere, could easily have come up with an uppublished explanation he doesn't discuss. Still, his paper is by miles the most thorough and learned discussion of abduction theories ever printed. Greg Sandow
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 5 Re: Premature Birth & Abduction? From: Sharon Kardol <sharon@hotmix.com.au> Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 19:27:51 +0800 Fwd Date: Fri, 05 Feb 1999 11:54:26 -0500 Subject: Re: Premature Birth & Abduction? >From: Leanne Martin <leanne_martin@hotmail.com> >To: updates@globalserve.net >Subject: Re: Premature Birth & Abduction? >Date: Thu, 04 Feb 1999 15:49:59 PST >Like anyone interested in facts and not hearsay or stories to >scare the gullible, I can only suggest one of these mysterious >entities brought forth from their lair... >What documents from which government prove what exactly >(remember we're talking abduction here, right)? >Yes many folk tales are based on some grain of truth. Before the >Tasmanian Devil was identified as the nocturnal animal >responsible for the blood curdling growls in the Tasmanian bush >the early settlers were absolutely positive is was the devil >himself come to punish them for their sins. >The kernel of truth: there are blood curdling sounds in night. >The untruth: it was the devil come to take the wicked sinners. >The facts: the Tasmanian Devils make blood curdling growls and >grunts in the night when arguing over a meal, a territory or a >mate. Being nocturnally active, like most of Australia's >mammals, it wasn't seen during the day when the settlers were up >and about. <snip> Leanne, This is true, an explanation for an event may not be accurate until concrete evidence has been found to prove or disprove the explanation, but if the effort and interest wasn't put into finding the cause of the blood-curdling howls in the night, the truth behind them may never have been found. By this I mean if we don't attempt to find the truth about alien abductions _one way or another_, we will be walking through life fooling ourselves about the truth. No-one claims to have the answers in regards to alien abductions (well that I know of any way), which is why we are attempting to find the answers through serious and not half-hearted research. Cheers, SharonK
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 5 Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com> Date: Fri, 05 Feb 1999 08:50:35 -0500 Fwd Date: Fri, 05 Feb 1999 11:57:03 -0500 Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 20:52:58 -0600 (CST) >From: Brian Cuthbertson <brianc@freeside.fc.net> >To: updates@globalserve.net >Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >>>Two cents on this for what its worth: In her recent book, >>>"Glimpses of Other Realities: Volume II: High Strangeness", >>>Linda Moulton includes in chapter 3 the story of an abductee >>>named Jim Sparks, who consciously relates a series of abductions >>>over the years during which he is taught an alien alphabet. >>Could you scan those pages and send them to me privately so I >>can see them? I'll let you know if it's the same thing I was >>shown. >>Peace, >>John Velez >Glad too. Keep an eye on your email box ... >BTW, as you probably know anyway, the correct name of the author >I mention above is Linda Moulton Howe. Brian, John, and all: I would suggest that you might want to get in touch with Dr. Mario Pazzaglini and obtain a copy of his monograph "Symbolic Messages, An Introduction to Alien Writing". It wasn't actually published, per se, but he has spoken at a local Symposium and was selling copies of it to those who were interested. The book is presumably available from the author, at: 523 Capitol Trail, Newark, Delaware 19711. Linda Howe introduced me to Dr. Pazzaglini in Roswell during the 50th, and he's quite interesting to talk to. His involvement in the genre goes back to the "early days", and his area of expertise is "Symbology" (for which he is fairly well known). His work is featured in "Glimpses of Other Realities II", and that may be referenced in the chapter mentioned above. In performing a quick search I found a web site that has some information that he's put together: http://www.brotherblue.org/brethren/pazzagli.htm There's an interview available at: http://www.pseudo.lycos.com/ Just thought I'd toss out a couple of thoughts. Steve
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 5 Re: Area 51 - The Alien Interview From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com> Date: Fri, 05 Feb 1999 09:21:53 -0500 Fwd Date: Fri, 05 Feb 1999 11:59:47 -0500 Subject: Re: Area 51 - The Alien Interview >Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 22:24:04 -0500 >From: James Easton <pulsar@compuserve.com> >Subject: UFO UpDate: Re: Area 51 - The Alien Interview >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >>Steve, >>The copy I have includes opinions and statements by Robert Dean, >>Shawn Morton, Art Bell, David Adair (who claims to have worked >>on a propulsion system), and Tom Coleman, President of Rocket >>Pictures, who received the initial call from "Victor". >>Steven Williams, who played a black "deep throat" on the >>X-Files, narrates the presentation. We see "Victor" in shadow >>being interviewed by someone. There are also black and white >>re-enactments concerning EBE-1 and EBE-2. As for the Alien >>Interview, it is first run without any word from anyone. Then >>"Victor" explains what is unfolding during the playback. Also, a >>review of the tape by Jim Dilettoso. There are also a couple of >>Special Effects experts (Rick Baker included) who give their >>opinions about the alien. This is what my copy consists of. I'd >>like to know the date of airing. If unable to find, will mark >>down closest date possible. In any event, thanks for the help. I somehow missed this response when it was first posted. The "Strange Universe" (SU) program featured the "Alien Interview" as its only topic for that program, which was unusual. They had apparently been given an exclusive (which may mean they were the only people interested), and they played it up for all it was worth. I assume that you saw the entire production, and not the bits and pieces that were given to SU, but those you mentioned above were all featured (to a limited degree0 on the TV program. >The full program as above has been broadcast in the UK and as >with the 'Secret KGB UFO Files' I didn't notice any related >media comment before or afterwards. >Can't say I found the 'alien interview' remotely convincing or >an impressive hoax. >I would be interested in any further information about the tape >you mentioned and when it was first seen. >Before any public news (unless I'm mistaken) of the 'alien >interview' footage, I was aware, as were others, of evidence >that some 'sensational' new 'secret' film of an 'alien' was to >be published and had a connection with 'Area 51'. >This goes back to August 1996. James, I think it's the same one, but who knows. >Following the success of the 'alien autopsy', I suppose an >'alien interview from Area 51', was a prime candidate for anyone >hoping to cash in on the genre. >The 'crop circle forming' has been done and admitted to be a >hoax - big surprise that one - the splendid 'flying saucer' >video from Mexico has evident hallmarks of a fake and 'Secrets >of the KGB UFO Files' seems to have been written off with little >more than abject scepticism. >Paradoxically, wasn't that arguably, overall, the largest >display of allegedly genuine and _tangible_ 'UFO/alien' evidence >ever - 'crash site' footage with numerous people involved plus >military equipment, an 'alien autopsy', supporting documents, >film of the material being clandestinely purchased, etc.? >If not, what was? The KGB program was interesting, but there was absolutely no provenance for the "film" that was shown. I'd like to follow up with some of the Russian researchers who were featured in the program, but haven't been able to locate any contacts on the "net" for them (and a language barrier is probably a factor that I'd hit down the road). Like the AA "film", there are factors included in the "film" that most people wouldn't have gotten right. On the other hand, there were other factors that give the impression that it has to be bogus. This wasn't helped by the threats allegedly made to one person who put up a web site on the program and then found himself the target of threatened litigation. He had allegedly uncovered a number of factural errors in the show, but became frightened when they sent a legal notice demanding that he "cease and desist." Of course, the individual then faded away from the "net" and his entire involvement could have been part of a broader plan to "hype" the program. With the "net", you just never know for sure. I suspect that a follow-up to the program will be produced, and the original is now being sold as a video tape in several magazines. If someone picks that video up, please let me know if they show the entire, uncut, "film" on the tape. Steve
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 5 Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality From: Rebecca Keith <xiannekei@yahoo.com> Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 09:32:48 -0800 (PST) Fwd Date: Fri, 05 Feb 1999 23:40:38 -0500 Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 10:18:30 -0500 >Yes, Stuart talks about factitious disorders, which, he writes >(quoting DSM IV, the standard compilation of mental disorders) >"refers to individuals who feign physical or psychological >illness where 'the motivation for the behavior is to assume the >sick role.'" In other words, people with this disorder have a >need to be sick, and, as DSM explains, they tend to say "yes" >when their doctors ask if they have various symptoms. Thus they >might be quick to agree that they'd been abducted, if someone >suggested that to them. >Stuart comments: >"Despite some parallels with abduction accounts, there are a >number of characteristics of factitious disorder that make it an >unlikely source of abdcution hoaxes. Sofferers are likely to >have an extensive history of hospitalizations or treatment >interventions, be extremely resistant to giving up the role as >patient, and are reluctant, vague, and inconsistent when asked >to provide information in detail. These and other differential >diagnoses are not charactersitic of the vast majority of >abduction experiencers." Thanks Greg. I wish I still had my copy of this excellent paper. <snip> >Once again, let me stress that he's evaluating explanations >published by others, not attempting to find an explanation >himself, or to think of new possibilities that haven't yet >appeared in the literature. Somebody, somewhere, could easily >have come up with an uppublished explanation he doesn't discuss. >Still, his paper is by miles the most thorough and learned >discussion of abduction theories ever printed. It also doesn't mean that some people who claim abduction might not suffer from some of these disorders. -Rebecca
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 5 Re: Premature Birth & Abduction? From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com> Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 12:58:07 EST Fwd Date: Fri, 05 Feb 1999 23:57:40 -0500 Subject: Re: Premature Birth & Abduction? >From: Sharon Kardol <sharon@hotmix.com.au> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto" <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: Re: Premature Birth & Abduction? >Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 19:27:51 +0800 >>From: Leanne Martin <leanne_martin@hotmail.com> >>To: updates@globalserve.net >>Subject: Re: Premature Birth & Abduction? >>Date: Thu, 04 Feb 1999 15:49:59 PST >>Like anyone interested in facts and not hearsay or stories to >>scare the gullible, I can only suggest one of these mysterious >>entities brought forth from their lair... >>What documents from which government prove what exactly >>(remember we're talking abduction here, right)? > >>Yes many folk tales are based on some grain of truth. Before the >>Tasmanian Devil was identified as the nocturnal animal >>responsible for the blood curdling growls in the Tasmanian bush >>the early settlers were absolutely positive is was the devil >>himself come to punish them for their sins. > >>The kernel of truth: there are blood curdling sounds in night. >>The untruth: it was the devil come to take the wicked sinners. >>The facts: the Tasmanian Devils make blood curdling growls and >>grunts in the night when arguing over a meal, a territory or a >>mate. Being nocturnally active, like most of Australia's >>mammals, it wasn't seen during the day when the settlers were up >>and about. ><snip> >Leanne, >This is true, an explanation for an event may not be accurate >until concrete evidence has been found to prove or disprove the >explanation, but if the effort and interest wasn't put into >finding the cause of the blood-curdling howls in the night, the >truth behind them may never have been found. > >By this I mean if we don't attempt to find the truth about alien >abductions _one way or another_, we will be walking through life >fooling ourselves about the truth. No-one claims to have the >answers in regards to alien abductions (well that I know of any >way), which is why we are attempting to find the answers through >serious and not half-hearted research. >Cheers, >SharonK Gentle Ladies, Men and the rest of you.... As a person who perceives (discerns, minds, notes, observes, recognizes, etc....... thank you Merriam) that he has been abducted, I can tell you and have often demonstrated, a knee jerk reaction to people telling me what I did or did not perceive to see, remember, etc. I have within my mind, a memory of events. I do not claim to even begin to understand what has occurred and I am open to any and all opinions. However I am not open to attitudes which convey the Klassian mentality which assigns undigested beef and other assorted articles of dreck to my perceptions. Opnions and theories are welcome. Statements of fact are not. For no one has sufficient _facts_ with which to make a firm statement of belief or unbelief. So where I buckle under the weight of stupidity, is when someone presents a theory as rather indipsutable fact when it is merely a theory. Too many people who tout themselves as being the "shaker-uppers" on this list speak ex cathedra. Even I cannot do that and my mind tells me these are real memories parked in there! In fact, you will please note the word I use thruout this and other posts ... the word is truth. The word is "PERCEIVE!" Because I really do not know how real the memories are. I wouldn't be sure, intellectually sure, even if I were hypnotised in order to recall. Because intellectually, neither I nor anyone else on this planet really does have the answers ... except those who may have interfaced with them critters ... people in government, if one believes such goings on go on. Which is why I drink Gripple Dripple. The nectar of unbelief. The salve of infortuitous memory. Who says I don't like debunkers? I love the little bastards. Gesundt
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 6 Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality From: Mark Cashman <mcashman@ix.netcom.com> Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 13:54:40 -0500 Fwd Date: Sat, 06 Feb 1999 00:05:00 -0500 Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com> >Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 09:48:26 EST >To: updates@globalserve.net >Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >Now as many of you know I dabble here and there in science >fiction. (See, Stan, it's really no big deal.) Anyway, I picked >up a copy of the 1966 movie, 'Mars Needs Women' and was >immediately struck by the look of the Martians as compared to >the Schirmer drawing. Schirmer seems to be the only one who >reported the alien's head gear with a little radio unit over the >ear with an antenna sticking up, exactly the same costume in >'Mars Needs Women'. This assertion bothers me for a number of reasons. First, that one can find a correlation between the appearance of an entity and a portrayal of an entity in the media does not prove that the media portrayal caused or influenced the report. To demonstrate such a claim requires showing an actual causal chain between the portrayal and the report - of which, not least, one must demonstrate that the witness saw the media presentation in question. Second, if there are several cases with similar characteristics, one must show that all of these witnesses saw the presentation in question. Third, one must explain why one portrayal rather than many others in the media caused this specific result. For instance, why don't aliens look like Michael Rennie? Or Exeter in 'This Island Earth'? Or even the 'Mu-tant' of TIE. These films both had much larger circulation than 'Mars Needs Women' (which, by the way, I have seen, and I must admit I don't recall the costume to which Kevin refers, and I have a fairly good memory). Also, why is there no correspondence in plot or dialog, or any other aspects except appearance? I seem to recall that Freud hypothesized that symbolic content in dreams was derived from events of the last few days, and was seldom based on the events of that specific day. I imagine that it needs study to determine the prevalence of recent and distant past events in confabulated accounts from hypnotic subjects, and, as far as I know, that work has not been done. If it were done, and it had a time horizon similar to Freud's hypothesis, the constraints on media related theories would be tightened, and proof / disproof of such claims would be more readily available. It seems to me that such claims are usually unverifiable. Those who claim that UFO or abduction events are based on the media rarely try to prove that the media presentation was available to the reporter. And if it is proven that it was not, then the assertion is made that the witness just doesn't remember. It's hardly scientific. And few recognize that even if the portrayal was available to the witness, that this still does not represent a causal chain. After all, why this witness and not everyone who saw the portrayal? Then there is the issue of media portrayals of something which is fairly constrained. For instance, humanoid aliens. While we can't say anything about alien life in general, there are reasons to believe that evolution might favor bilateral creatures with sense organs concentrated in the head (for instance, I refer you to Wigglesworth's "The Life Of Insects). Yet it seems to me that by the same reasoning Kevin uses to attribute Schirmer's recollections to popular culture, one might attribute all occupant cases involving humanoids to popular culture as well, despite the evolutionary possibilities (after all, non-humanoids are sparse in cinema and TV, simply because of their cost and the difficulty of doing good drama with them). I suspect that would not be wise :-) As I pointed out in my recent IUR article, that while special effects can reproduce the appearance of UFOs on film, this cannot be constituted a proof that UFOs do not exist, any more than similar reproductions consititute a proof that airplanes and bridges do not exist. The same logic applies to the idea that the existence of a similar media portrayal invalidates a UFO case. Finally, we must be cautious, as always, in interpreting the results of hypnosis, especially when hypnosis is used to recall traumatic events. We don't know as much as we should about this subject. Some researchers suggest that traumatic memories are better than normal memories. Others suggest that PTSD can distort traumatic memories. It is certainly possible that at least some of those recalling encounters under hypnosis are distorting or confabulating a less threatening experience to defend their sanity against the real memories. This certainly would represent an inlet for cultural phenomena to stand in place of real events, without invalidating those events. At any rate, I hope that Kevin's reasoning in his new book is better than the example I cited above. ------ Mark Cashman, creator of The Temporal Doorway at http://www.temporaldoorway.com - Original digital art, writing, and UFO research - UFO cases, analysis, classification systems, and more... http://www.temporaldoorway.com/ufo.htm ------
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 6 Re: Mystery Skycrash UK Isle of Lewis? From: Dave Ledger <dledger@cableinet.co.uk> Date: Fri, 05 Feb 1999 21:08:06 +0000 Fwd Date: Sat, 06 Feb 1999 09:39:44 -0500 Subject: Re: Mystery Skycrash UK Isle of Lewis? >Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 13:43:05 -0500 >From: David Clarke <dclarke14@compuserve.com> >Subject: Mystery Skycrash UK Isle of Lewis? >To: UFO Updates <updates@globalserve.net> >Help and information wanted relating to sightings/mystery >explosion at the Butt of Lewis, Outer Hebrides, Scotland, on the >afternoon of October 26, 1986. >New information has recently come to light regarding the origin >of this incident via the Coastguard and RAF Fylingdales space >tracking station in North Yorkshire. I hope to reveal this data >in a forthcoming special report and via a forthcoming book. >I'm looking for details of witnesses, newspaper and magazine >reports, UFO reports and rumours, etc which appeared surrounding >the original incident. >Any help gratefully acknowledged. Dear Errol, David and list members, In reply to David's request concerning the anomalous events of October 26th 1996 in the Outer Hebrides Scotland. We have a selection of reports FYI Dave, at the UFO Scotland website. The URL is: http://wkweb5.cableinet.co.uk/dledger/explos2.htm Hope this helps with your research amigo. If any additional info should turn up with regards to this particular case, I would appreciate it if you could forward it on to me to assist with my own personal research. Many thanks in advance. All the best to the list and good luck with your various research projects. >From your friend in Bonnie Scotland, Dave Ledger (UFO Scotland) -- ================================================================== If you see someone without a smile......give them one of yours :) ****************************************************************** Posted by: Dave Ledger (mailto:UFOSCOT@cableinet.co.uk) VISIT "UFO SCOTLAND" AT: <A HREF="http://wkweb5.cableinet.co.uk/dledger/index.htm">UFO Scotland.</A> ICQ pager http://wwp.mirabilis.com/4851425 ****************************************************************** THE TRUTH IS JUST AROUND THE CORNER!..................BUT HOW FAR? ================================================================== "The sands of time are trickling away from our dear mother Earth and yet we continue to fight amongst ourselves and destroy our natural enviroment,leaving all the mess for our children and their children's children to inherit when we're gone."
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 6 Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality From: Mendoza <DarkSecretPB@compuserve.com> Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 20:48:14 -0500 Fwd Date: Sat, 06 Feb 1999 09:45:12 -0500 Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality With the compliments of the Duke of Mendoza: >From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 21:20:22 -0500 After establishing some common ground, Greg says: >If abduction investigators believe abductions are real, it's >perfectly reasonable for them to act on that belief. The pivotal words here are "believe" and "belief" and "act". If I believe that the Earth is flat, or that the Pope is the Anti-Christ, that is one thing. If I act on it by misleading those ill-informed in history and astronomy and theology, or by attempting to assassinate astronomers or blow up the Vatican - or by throwing hand-grenades into Catholic bars in Londonderry - there is nothing perfectly reasonable about it at all. Belief in abductions is just that. There is no empirical evidence, no plausible third-party testimony (as one has for the existence of transient phenomena like thunderstorms, for example), no physical evidence that can be linked unequivocally to the alleged event - whether scar, implant or souvenir from spaceship - and no consistency even in the subjective testimony from one abduction narrative to another. The stories themselves have parallels in both folklore and in other subjective experiences (e.g. fairy lore, shamanism, witchcraft, psychotropic drugs, religious revelation). The allegedly symptomatic experiences - the subject of the five key Roper poll questions - have multiple other known causes well documented in medical and psychological literature. All the hypotheses for the objective origins of the aliens (time travel, interdimensional beings, ETH, &c &c) are not only unfalsifiable per se but best labelled speculative. The chosen investigative method, hypnosis, has been shown to be unreliable _as a general tool_ in every other application it has had on what is essentially a malleable and little understood entity, memory. Every foundation of the abduction construction industry - and I've not even touched on the madness of "genetic manipulation" - is wobbly and ambiguous, but here we are presented with a chorus line who have solved _all_ those problems, to their own satisfaction at any rate, and proceed to "act" on it, creating a massive mythology so pervasive in American and large chunks of European culture that anyone who thinks hard enough about it (I speak as one who can answer Yes to four of the five key Roper questions) can imagine themselves a potential abductee, and whom you still manage to call that "reasonable"? The Boylans and Fiores of the world are no worse than the Hopkins, Jacobs and Macks of the world: the former two just happened to work within a professional framework sufficiently established and impartial that their _un_willing victims could stop them in their tracks. Note that I am implying it takes two to create an abduction, and it's no great psychological surprise that some people feel happiest when cast in the role of victim. (Which is not to say that all who believe they've been abducted are self-cast victim figures, before you get picky. I am necessarily, for economy, dealing in generalizations here. But it may be in order to wonder to what extent abductologists choose their subjects for their willingness to buy the abduction scenario.) Point, anyway, is that it is not perfectly reasonable to act on a belief as shaky as this one. (I may as well admit I also have a detestation of proselytizing religions, and make a point of giving the Watchtower crowd and the Latter Day Saints a good grilling when they come scratching round the base of the Mage's Tower with their shenanigans and shiny faces bullshit.) I can only applaud when John Velez - who ought to know, what? - counsels people curious or worried about their anomalous experiences not to go to an abduction researcher. >To see how far into danger you've gone, let's ask which >abduction investigators might be ignorant, wilfully or not, >of abnormal psychology. All you present here are assumptions and speculations: that some psychotherapists, an historian, and an artist who knows a psychological luminary, may be aware of "abnormal" psychology. But it doesn't matter if their libraries are groaning with the literature and their brains bursting with it. They offer no evidence in their writings that they have used any such knowledge to eliminate such mundane explanations for the experiences they are dealing with (when those experiences have not been generated almost entirely under hypnosis). I can recall a sentence or two in an early Hopkins book - which, in fairness, I felt obliged to quote in my own - in which he says he explored every psychological explanation he could and couldn't find one to fit. Which is not implausible, but neither is it that no one pointed him in the right directions. Experts are not expert in everything. A distinguished marine biologist and friend could tell me nothing, recently, about current evolutionary theory, for example. David Howard, whose story I tell in my book, failed to be diagnosed as a narcoleptic throughout the first bout of his condition, which lasted about seven years. We all know examples like this (most of them probably come from experience with car mechanics). Nor do they offer any evidence that they have considered and eliminated a myriad other possible interpretations _in individual cases_ of what they are dealing with. Jacobs spends several pages skimming over skeptical objections in "Secret Life", and each one of his treatments can be exposed as fatuous. I've done the necessary on several. Jacobs has also shown himself to be absolutely intellectually dishonest - yes I will repeat this charge - by publicly persisting in his claims of alien-induced pregnancy within just a few months of that myth being demolished at the MIT conference; and in due course following them with the paranoid ramblings of "The Threat". Jacobs is actually the trickiest of all the abductologists because he describes themes, not individual cases, which is useful to a folklorist but of no utility whatever to anyone wanting insight into his method, or to get a handle on the context from which his subjects come. Mack comes the cleanest, and sinks his own boat the fastest. It's patently bloody obvious that he made no attempt whatever to explore anything but his "alien view" of what his subjects were reporting, and took every word of it at face value, and has that wonderful passage in which he more or less admits that his subjects' accounts are confabulated between them and himself. But then Mack doesn't "believe" in science either, so all is forgiven (?). >Ufologists investigating UFO sightings normally don't run into >people as distressed as abductees. One thing that will _not_ >work -- either humanly, or as the basis for an investigation -- >is to question abductees in a detached, rigorous, neutral >manner, as Hendry questioned those who reported seeing UFOs. Why ever not? None of these adjectives precludes sympathy, as you imply. "Just the facts, ma'am" can be uttered as kindly and soothingly as it can harshly. >Which is not to say you have to assume the reality of >abductions. But you have to at least grant the possibility (so >the abductees don't think you're saying they're crazy) I wish sympathizers with the abduction scenario would be consistent. On the one hand we are told abductees would rather be told they're crazy than be abductees, on the other we're told they can't take being thought crazy. I will end by repeating what I've said countless times, which is that I don't think abductees are crazy, and that this is a false dichotomy put about by abductologists subtly to bolster the appearance of reasonableness for their case. You don't have to be nuts to have weird, frightening experiences that you can't explain, any more than you have to be a pinked-up floozie in provocative clothing in order to be raped. But a bizarre, terrifying and inexplicable experience, or even set of circumstances, do not an abduction make. Well, actually, no - I won't end there: on a mildly placatory note, I'll sign off instead by saying that these generalizations in which Greg and I have been dealing will not ultimately get us very far, saying yea and nay, and so on, and actually don't reflect large areas of agreement we actually share. Our different stances might be more fruitfully applied to a particular case. Still better, a case nominated by someone else. What say? best wishes Perchtickler D. Mackerelsmoke Pole Reverser
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 6 Re: Premature Birth & Abduction? From: Mendoza <DarkSecretPB@compuserve.com> Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 20:48:17 -0500 Fwd Date: Sat, 06 Feb 1999 09:53:59 -0500 Subject: Re: Premature Birth & Abduction? With the Duke's compliments: >From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com> >Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 09:54:07 EST >To: updates@globalserve.net >Subject: Re: Premature Birth & Abduction? >I asked Lawson when I interviewed him >on my radio show, "How does fetus know what it looks like?" If >it doesn't know what it looks like, then it can't be providing a >"memory" of it in its original state. >Lawson's answer was, "It just does." >Such an answer does not work. Anyone who thinks about it >realizes that the fetus can't see itself in the womb because >there is no reflective surface and there is no light. Lawson's >Birth Trauma Hypothesis fails at that point. I found this: "Travis Walton's uncomfortable familiarity with his fetal aliens was really a shock of recognition from a semi-forgotten perinatal memory of his own fetal body shape. Fetuses touch themselves constantly, as ultrasound monitoring proves, and so it must follow that they develop a sense of their own body image. How can they suck their thumb, turn a somersault, or reach for and hold their umbilical cord when startled, as they do, without some body familiarity?" It comes from: wysiwyg://52/http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Corridor/8148/lawson5.html which is an undated Usenet post (or part of one) from Al Lawson. Even if you don't buy Lawson's thesis it's worth reading for many other wise and/or provocative comments on abduction claims and ufology in general. However, even if that (above) answers the question of foetal self-awareness, it doesn't tell me why or how my putative and presumably buried memory of myself as a foetus, or of being born, should translate itself into a fantasy (Lawson's term) about *other* little foetal nasties doing horrid things to me during my abduction, or why I should want to create a fantasy about them abducting me in the first place. However again. The foetal appearance of the Standard Gray, and their unseemly interest in all things sexual, the business about hybrids and the dying race, all point to the abduction scenario (if accepted as fantasy) having reproduction as a crucial theme. One reason why I don't find the San Olmos Sasquatch's "Abortion Anxiety Hypothesis" as weird as some. Just stirring up the mud. best wishes Pluto D. Mercury Circular Sore
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 6 Re: RAMS - Cleanup The Corners From: Michael Christol <mchristo@mindspring.com> Date: Fri, 05 Feb 1999 22:15:45 -0600 Fwd Date: Sat, 06 Feb 1999 10:04:04 -0500 Subject: Re: RAMS - Cleanup The Corners >From: Roger R. Prokic <rprokic@earthlink.net> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 15:16:43 -0800 >Subject: Re: RAMS - Cleanup The Corners >>The X-33 prototype was to be tested this month but was delayed >>due to a fuel tank problem. It has it's own web site at: >>http://www.venturestar.com/ >The X-30 was called NASP (National Aerospace Plane). It was >cancelled in the 1990 time frame. I don't recall the exact >year. The X-33 is a different plane, called the VentureStar >which is being designed and built by Lockheed Martin (Skunk >Works & Astronautics). Did they conclude that the project was too sophisticated for them? The X-30, I am referring to... Did they have trouble with the Engines which would operate as any normal jet aircraft in the atmosphere and then switch to rocket engines in space???? I was so looking to a giant step forward in 'public' space trasnsportation... To me, the X-33 is just a glorified Space Shuttle, and still not practicle for the average citizen. It was my understanding that the space plane would take off at any international air port in the USA and fly to suborbit or orbit, then decend to land in Europe or somewhere else, in just a matter of half an hour to an hour... Yes, to say I am disappointed, is a given...sigh...just once I would like to see them do something for the average citizen where space flight is concurned. At this pace, it will be another hundred years before you and I can be a participating part of it... REgards, Mike
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 6 Re: Premature Birth & Abduction? From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net> Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 22:42:41 -0500 Fwd Date: Sat, 06 Feb 1999 10:14:28 -0500 Subject: Re: Premature Birth & Abduction? >Date: Thu, 04 Feb 1999 22:35:17 -0800 >From: Judith Dale <judithdale@earthlink.net> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: Re: Premature Birth & Abduction? >>>What 'proof' is needed today, to move these sightings and >>>'abductions' from myth to reality? We've got documents from the >>>government, we've got witness testimony. What else would you >>>like? I'm really curious :-). >>I'd say we need physical evidence, eyewitness reports of >>abductions, and government documents that aren't forgeries -- >>for a start. >Thanks for your answer. Now, I may be jumping into a pile of >blank here, but I am under the impression that there is at least >one abduction event that was witnessed. Some fellow, Walton, I >think. I may have the details wrong, but seems I've read that >there were witnesses in that case. Are you saying that all of >the government documents that have been released are forgeries ? >I find that to be a depressing idea, though one I suppose , that >is also not outside the realm of possibility. There are many kinds of government documents. Some, released under the Freedom of Information act, are genuine, and don't tell us very much. At best, you'll find a high-ranking Air Force general saying, in the late '40s, that "flying discs" are, in his opinion, real objects. There are also hints that really sensitive UFO reports went somewhere other than the Air Force UFO study projects (all pretty small-scale affairs) that were publicly known. The more dramatic documents, like the ones about "MJ-12," tell much more interesting stories. They're full of crashed UFOs, alien bodies, and secret investigative teams. The problem is that nobody knows where they came from. They aren't found (with one small and very controversial exception) in official archives, and weren't released by government agencies. Copies of them -- or photographs of them -- show up in UFO investigators' mailboxes, with no proper return address. When they're closely studied, many of them turn out to be full of obvious mistakes (such as a reference to Area 51 before any such place existed). Others aren't so obviously false, but have more subtle problem. None of them has been proved to be genuine, and most ufologists think they're highly questionable, to say the least. The Travis Walton case did have witnesses, but they didn't see an abduction as such. They said they saw Walton struck by a beam of light from some unknown object. The case in which witnesses really did supposedly see an abduction in progress is the Linda "Cortile" case (that's not her real last name), investigated by Budd Hopkins, who wrote about it in a book appropriately titled "Witnessed." Here, though, we have a few problems. Four witnesses supposedly saw the abduction, but one denies it, and two of the others are shadowy figures that even Hopkins never met (he got letters from them, but otherwise can't prove that they even exist). The fourth supposed witness talked extensively with him, but then decided to drop all contact, and never confirmed the story to anyone else. I reviewed this case in great detail for IUR, the CUFOS publication. I can't say it's a hoax, but I also can't prove that it's real. So we really don't have any solid, witnessed abduction case. Greg Sandow
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 6 Re: RAMS - Cleanup The Corners From: Michael Christol <mchristo@mindspring.com> Date: Fri, 05 Feb 1999 23:56:38 -0600 Fwd Date: Sat, 06 Feb 1999 10:21:02 -0500 Subject: Re: RAMS - Cleanup The Corners >Date: Fri, 05 Feb 1999 05:32:26 +0000 >From: Robert A.M. Stephens <sti3818@montana.com> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: Re: RAMS - Cleanup The Corners >>I guess you didn't have any information on my friend Norris >>Collier. >====================== >No Mike, I didn't. But that is not important in that I did not >look at older NASA Directories. He might have been there and it >doesn't show until you look at all records. He was there at Huntsville during the days of Apollo 11, If my memory serves me correctly. I only knew this from talking to his dad. He lived across the street from my mother. I moved from Georgia to Kentucky and didn't get to see Norris after high School. REgards, Mike
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 6 Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net> Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 23:12:20 -0500 Fwd Date: Sat, 06 Feb 1999 10:18:36 -0500 Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 19:11:24 -0800 (PST) >From: Rebecca Keith <xiannekei@yahoo.com> >Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >>>That wasn't what I was referring to, but I think as mentioned in >>>another post of Peter's, both Hopkins and Jacobs have been >>>somewhat stingy with their data. >>Depends on who you ask. Some comparisons might be in order, too. >>How many physicists will share data they haven't published yet? >Most physicists might have an idea where they are going with >their data. Since abductions are an unchartered territory, I >would think an artist, who does abduction work on the side, >would want input from others. Is Budd concerned about someone >stealing his work? More likely he's worried that someone will misrepresent it. Physicists deal very often with uncharted territory. Your implication here, I think, is that abductions are trickier than, let's say, quantum theory, and that Budd, being an artist and not a scientist, could use some help from people better trained than he is. You may know that in the first years of his abduction studies, he worked very closely with several psychologists, only going out on his own when he felt he'd learned enough from them to do so. I know two psychologists with good standing in their field, neither one an abduction believer, who've watched Budd work more recently, and have nothing but respect for his methods. There are others he consults with. I'm not sure why you're assuming that he keeps all his information to himself. (As I tried to explain in another post, he's a very worldly person, with a remarkably wide and varied group of friends and acquaintances. That, of course, doesn't guarantee that he's right about everything, or that all his friends agree with him in all respects. But some people seem to think he's a naive artist who got carried away with UFO excitement, and never talks to anyone except abductees and, maybe, other painters. That's pretty far from the truth.) Scientists might or might not share data, depending on how far along they are in their research or their theories. Until they've published their work, or presented it at a seminar, they might share their tentative thoughts with colleagues they trust, but they're under no obligation to give what they've got to anyone who happens to ask. Greg Sandow
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 6 Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net> Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 00:28:43 -0600 (CST) Fwd Date: Sat, 06 Feb 1999 10:24:14 -0500 Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 09:32:48 -0800 (PST) >From: Rebecca Keith <xiannekei@yahoo.com> >Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> <snip> >Thanks Greg. I wish I still had my copy of this excellent paper. Hell, woman! You're supposed to hold on to the good stuff and get rid of the bad stuff. Didn't I teach you nuthin' in Roswell? Now I gotta whiplash you again? Bend over! Or get a scanner. Or better yet, define yourself. Are you a skeptic, a sympathetic skeptic, a debunker, a governemnt agent, a paid disinformation agent or merely a disseminator (sp?) of disinformation like the rest of us? Curious minds like mine would like to know. They would also like to know what you're getting paid per hour. Doesn't $14.50/hr seem a tad on the low side to you, given all the damage that we've managed to accrete? Don't know 'bout you, but I'm feeling due for a raise, havng thoroughly confused the issue about skeptic & debunker. $20/hr or I take a hike. Did I mention health care? Dennis
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 6 Firsts On NBC's 'Confirmation' From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@get2net.dk> Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 08:54:18 +0100 (MET) Fwd Date: Sat, 06 Feb 1999 10:33:39 -0500 Subject: Firsts On NBC's 'Confirmation' Source: UltimateTV http://www.ultimatetv.com:80/news/f/a/99/02/02febprog rams.html Stig *** A First-Rate February A Look at February Sweeps by Michele Marks First-rate programming for viewers of all ages is what you can expect for the month of February. Miniseries and awards shows top the list of programming for ABC, CBS and NBC. <snip> "Confirmation: Hard Evidence Of Aliens Among Us," Feb. 17 (8-10pm), is an NBC two-hour special based on Whitley Strieber's best-selling book. The controversial and disturbing production explores evidence that planet Earth has been visited by UFOs and alien beings. One of the highlights of the unique presentation will be the first on-camera removal of an alleged alien implant. Viewers will also see - for the very first time - controversial recorded information that attests to the possibility that we have been visited by alien spacecraft and aliens. So, whatever planet you come from, February is a first-rate viewing month. Copyright 1994-1999 UltimateTV
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 6 Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality From: Leanne Martin <leanne_martin@hotmail.com> Date: Sat, 06 Feb 1999 05:43:17 PST Fwd Date: Sat, 06 Feb 1999 10:37:15 -0500 Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 09:32:48 -0800 (PST) >From: Rebecca Keith <xiannekei@yahoo.com> >Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >>From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net> >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >>Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >>Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 10:18:30 -0500 G'day Rebecca, Greg & List, >>Yes, Stuart talks about factitious disorders, which, he writes >>(quoting DSM IV, the standard compilation of mental disorders) >>"refers to individuals who feign physical or psychological >>illness where 'the motivation for the behavior is to assume the >>sick role.'" In other words, people with this disorder have a >>need to be sick, and, as DSM explains, they tend to say "yes" >>when their doctors ask if they have various symptoms. Thus they >>might be quick to agree that they'd been abducted, if someone >>suggested that to them. >>Stuart comments: >>"Despite some parallels with abduction accounts, there are a >>number of characteristics of factitious disorder that make it an >>unlikely source of abdcution hoaxes. Sofferers are likely to >>have an extensive history of hospitalizations or treatment >>interventions, be extremely resistant to giving up the role as >>patient, and are reluctant, vague, and inconsistent when asked >>to provide information in detail. These and other differential >>diagnoses are not charactersitic of the vast majority of >>abduction experiencers." >Thanks Greg. I wish I still had my copy of this excellent paper. ><snip> >>Once again, let me stress that he's evaluating explanations >>published by others, not attempting to find an explanation >>himself, or to think of new possibilities that haven't yet >>appeared in the literature. Somebody, somewhere, could easily >>have come up with an uppublished explanation he doesn't discuss. >>Still, his paper is by miles the most thorough and learned >>discussion of abduction theories ever printed. >It also doesn't mean that some people who claim abduction might >not suffer from some of these disorders. I agree, but where do we go from here? We have a professor in the USA putting his whole career on the line by wanting to study the 'abduction phenomena', we have many interested but sceptical by-standers such as myself asking for other than 'word-of-mouth' proof, we have many hundreds of 'abductees' and we have, still, nothing _verifiable_ (in scientific terms) that manything actually happened to the 'abductees'. We bay and moan that 'they orta do something!' but what does it get us? Seriously, who has a solid idea, concept, plan, program or petition that can sway officialdom?!? God knows I don't 'coz I'm damned well sceptical of the whole pro-abduction movement. I'm still waiting for someone to own up to having the verifiable 'footage', the provable leaked document, the material sample that shakes the foundations of science, or even the alien body in the morgue that the world can see for itself. No! I am not prepared to take on face value the word of anyone who says that they were abducted - no way - no how. I do accept that there may actually have been people who were abducted. There really may have but other than there stories what proofs are there. If we use UFO reports as an example, very few claimed sightings are left in the 'unidentified' basket. How many of the thousands upon thou- sands of abductions reported would you say, if enough research was done into the 'abductee', you would accept as being halfway there in terms of actual believability? {Note: I am not saying that we must dig and dig and dig into a person's background looking for the slightest reason to discount their story.) We have seen enough duplicity on this list as to claimed credentials of 'researchers' to know that for various reasons a few people will delude themselves as well as others for various reasons, In line with that we now expect a more rigorous checking of a persons background before we accept their claims of authenticity. Yet are we to accept holus-bolus every claim of abduction as being absolutely true just because we were told it was? Up until now its just so much pissin' in the wind, and if wasn't for Dr. Mortellaro's magical gripple that occasionally makes its way to my glass {hic!} I'd be even more sceptical than I am now... <g> Cheers, Salute, bottoms up, etc. ... Leanne ];-)
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 6 Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com> Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 09:44:20 EST Fwd Date: Sat, 06 Feb 1999 10:42:30 -0500 Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >From: Mark Cashman <mcashman@ix.netcom.com> >Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 13:54:40 -0500 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >>From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com> >>Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 09:48:26 EST >>To: updates@globalserve.net >>Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >>Now as many of you know I dabble here and there in science >>fiction. (See, Stan, it's really no big deal.) Anyway, I picked >>up a copy of the 1966 movie, 'Mars Needs Women' and was >>immediately struck by the look of the Martians as compared to >>the Schirmer drawing. Schirmer seems to be the only one who >>reported the alien's head gear with a little radio unit over the >>ear with an antenna sticking up, exactly the same costume in >>'Mars Needs Women'. >This assertion bothers me for a number of reasons. >First, that one can find a correlation between the appearance of >an entity and a portrayal of an entity in the media does not >prove that the media portrayal caused or influenced the report. >To demonstrate such a claim requires showing an actual causal >chain between the portrayal and the report - of which, not >least, one must demonstrate that the witness saw the media >presentation in question. >Second, if there are several cases with similar characteristics, >one must show that all of these witnesses saw the presentation >in question. >Third, one must explain why one portrayal rather than many >others in the media caused this specific result. For instance, >why don't aliens look like Michael Rennie? Or Exeter in 'This >Island Earth'? Or even the 'Mu-tant' of TIE. >These films both had much larger circulation than 'Mars Needs >Women' (which, by the way, I have seen, and I must admit I don't >recall the costume to which Kevin refers, and I have a fairly >good memory). First, as far as I know, Schirmer was the only one to describe the aliens in this fashion. Second, if there are other, similar claims, then it is possible that those others were influenced by the first report and not necessarily by the original presentation. In other words, it is possible that Schirmer's report was the cause of the similar reports simply because his was one of the first abduction reports and was widely circulated. Third, funny you should mention This Island Earth because the "mutant" worker of Metaluna appears in occupant reports from South America. And finally, memory has nothing to do with whether the costume of the Martians is in the film or not. All you have to do is look at it again. If you read my original statement, you'll see that I was merely commenting on an amazing coincidence between what Schirmer reported and a movie that was circulating in pop culture at the time. >Also, why is there no correspondence in plot or dialog, or any >other aspects except appearance? >It seems to me that such claims are usually unverifiable. Those >who claim that UFO or abduction events are based on the media >rarely try to prove that the media presentation was available to >the reporter. And if it is proven that it was not, then the >assertion is made that the witness just doesn't remember. It's >hardly scientific. And few recognize that even if the portrayal >was available to the witness, that this still does not represent >a causal chain. After all, why this witness and not everyone who >saw the portrayal? Given the timing, I did try to find out when Mars Needs Women was circulated in the Midwest by reading the newspaper ads in 1966. Given the promotion of films in that era, that is, large newspaper ads when the films changed (usually in midweek), it is possible that Schirmer didn't see the movie, but saw the ads. And how do you prove that a particular presentation wasn't available to a specific witness? In this case, it is possible that Schirmer didn't see the movie and could tell us that he didn't see it. But, does that mean he didn't see the ads for it in the newspaper? That he didn't walk by the theater and see the posters out front displaying the Martians and their headgear? Could it be that he noticed something from the pop culture that, for some reason, stuck in his mind and then, under the influence of hypnosis, recalled that detail? <snip> >Then there is the issue of media portrayals of something which >is fairly constrained. For instance, humanoid aliens. While we >can't say anything about alien life in general, there are >reasons to believe that evolution might favor bilateral >creatures with sense organs concentrated in the head (for >instance, I refer you to Wigglesworth's "The Life Of Insects). >Yet it seems to me that by the same reasoning Kevin uses to >attribute Schirmer's recollections to popular culture, one might >attribute all occupant cases involving humanoids to popular >culture as well, despite the evolutionary possibilities (after >all, non-humanoids are sparse in cinema and TV, simply because >of their cost and the difficulty of doing good drama with them). >I suspect that would not be wise :-) I have noticed a general trend that seems to reflect this. Many (though not all) early occupant cases had creatures in "diving suits" and with tanks on their backs, not unlike those represented in many of the 1950s science fiction films. Villas-Boas, for example, described creatures that had this equipment. Later movies did away with these items when we started talking of "Earth-like" planets. Occupant reports from later days seem to have done away with such descriptions as well. Does this suggest a pop cultural contamination? Certainly. Does it prove it? Certainly not. It is merely an observation which can be challenged by suggesting that, in the 1950s version of The Thing, the creature carried no breathing apparatus. >As I pointed out in my recent IUR article, that while special >effects can reproduce the appearance of UFOs on film, this >cannot be constituted a proof that UFOs do not exist, any more >than similar reproductions consititute a proof that airplanes >and bridges do not exist. The same logic applies to the idea >that the existence of a similar media portrayal invalidates a >UFO case. And I haven't made such a claim. Again, I was commenting on an observation made between the alien creatures that Schirmer described, under hypnosis, and the pop culture that was circulating at the time. >Finally, we must be cautious, as always, in interpreting the >results of hypnosis, especially when hypnosis is used to recall >traumatic events. We don't know as much as we should about this >subject. Some researchers suggest that traumatic memories are >better than normal memories. And some don't. >Others suggest that PTSD can >distort traumatic memories. It is certainly possible that at >least some of those recalling encounters under hypnosis are >distorting or confabulating a less threatening experience to >defend their sanity against the real memories. This certainly >would represent an inlet for cultural phenomena to stand in >place of real events, without invalidating those events. Which provides a fine excuse for those claiming to be suffering from PTSD when the provable facts do not support their version of the events. But that is a whole other topic. >At any rate, I hope that Kevin's reasoning in his new book is >better than the example I cited above. The reasoning is simple. Pop culture does influence our attitudes. It is all around us. We must be aware that it is there and be prepared to answer questions about it without dismissing it with clever phrases. As for Schirmer, look at the case again. He had no conscious memory of abduction, only of seeing a UFO. It wasn't until Leo Sprinkle put him under hypnosis that the tale of abduction appeared. Let's not reject an idea simply because we find it unpleasant. KRandle
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 6 Alfred's Odd Ode #292 From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com> Date: Sat, 06 Feb 1999 09:14:44 -0600 Fwd Date: Sat, 06 Feb 1999 10:46:08 -0500 Subject: Alfred's Odd Ode #292 Apology to MW #292 (For February 6, 1999) Johnny Ford -- still locked away? Still _wrenched_ from freedom's dawn, you say. Still eating tasteless gruel he's served with hapless ladles crusted, lurid. Bullied by a cell block thug he's driven down with slaps and slugs. Remember he's a _cop_ to them, a target for the fix they're in. Sleeping on his fetid mattress, he lays awake and hears the madness; bad enough if he deserved it -- unbearable, he didn't earn it. Crimped and weak his fingers curl around the bars that cage this hero -- damn that sullen, unjust steel that takes him from the free and real. What's he doing, how's he hanging (?), listening to that cup that's banging in a distance he can't get to -- he's restricted, tied -- denied you. You won't hear what he might say that questions ways you've learned to pray. You got tired, and with _no_ emotion (based it on a foolish notion) locked a *saint* inside thick walls while mayhem, _outside_, howls and crawls! Still and all, and not a _peep_ of John Ford's status -- what _vast_ conceit! You think that it's forgotten, lost, that he has yet to bear the cost of what it was that he got close to -- fanning flames that shame and roast you? You think that it is unremembered, you called him *crazy*, then _reconsidered_? He's well enough for trial, you say? Well -- *when's* he going to have his day? And there's the rub, you covert bastard. You won't hear his harmful answer! His trial might embarrass you, and worse than that -- might prove you're _through_. It's gone on now for years and _years_. That gadfly Ford you've tried to steer? Quiet now within his cell, but bet he has a tale to tell. You'd argue that I _feed_ his madness when it's _you_ produced his sadness -- slandered him and took his name; I hope that, soon, _you're_ made to blame. Every _one_ is most surprised that he would try what you've described! All that know him, friend or foe, all know that he was framed as _though_ a mad man walked inside his clothes -- because he _looked_ for UFO's. Your case is _stupid_, uninspired -- a contrivance you have _made_ -- conspired! And getting older by the minute, hard to prove the way you spin it. Maybe, hoping soon he'll die! Maybe help him make his try!?! If he dies in _jail_ friend, I'll know _you_ did it -- don't pretend!!! That he's _there_ is your disgrace; I'll hope to see you take his place among those inmates of contrition -- those _deserving_ their positions. Months, and we have had no news that's news about John Ford in view. Our reason for our silence glares, and challenges with steady stares reluctance to speak up _one_ word where freedom is, in fact, deferred. But is that freedom you can cherish? So quickly lost, so quick to perish -- evaporating like a _dew_ on desert flowers. Yes, it's true. But you are at, as much, a risk if you speak out, then, sharp and quick, to bellows of these arbitrary -- these tyrannous, or dark contrary. Let them bring just _one_ down low, and they're emboldened -- don't you know? Then its you they finally get, _your_ freedom is a sucker's bet at the whim of one's convenience to make _you_ live in inconvenience. You don't get it, that's your error! John is _you_; he lives _your_ terror. _You're_ the one interred alive. You're the one in _jail_, Clyde! It's you that's eating awful food. It's you forsaken, betrayed -- abused! It's you without a _spark_ of hope! It's you that _lives_ this tragic joke! It's you that lives a life despised as harmful vermin -- all contrived! It's you that shuffles for the man from cell to yard, to hall -- all planned. It's you without a moment's peace, it's you that's driven to your knees! It's you that suffers needlessly. It's _you_ in torment -- YOU not free! Lehmberg@snowhill.com You. Special thanks to T.B. from GA. The fund total now stands at 150 dollars! Such is the _power_ of individual will <total absence of little smiley face>! This cash gift to John Ford is, in the long view, a gift to yourself T.B. . . . a gift to _yourself_. Thanks again! Restore John Ford! -- Explore the Alien View! Ponder the Wit & Wisdom of Ching Chow! "Unstill Life" -- Animation . . . and more. http://www.fortunecity.com/roswell/arecibo/46/ <Updated 30 January> John Ford Restoration Fund -- Send your checks and money orders to _me_, Alfred Lehmberg (cut out the lawyers, they got their's) at: 304 Melbourne Drive, Enterprise AL, 36330. Strict records kept. "Only thin, _very light_ envelopes with a return address will be accepted <g>." ~~~ $250.00 pledged -- $150.00 collected ~~~ "I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see from afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, while burning at the fundamentalist's stake.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 6 Re: FOIA on SOM 1-01 From: Gildas Bourdais <GBourdais@aol.com> Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 10:25:41 EST Fwd Date: Sat, 06 Feb 1999 10:54:51 -0500 Subject: Re: FOIA on SOM 1-01 >Date: Tue, 02 Feb 1999 13:18:45 -0800 >From: Jan Aldrich <jan@cyberzone.net ()> >To: updates@globalserve.net >Subject: FOIA on SOM 1-01 >As indicated in the posting from Bill Hamilton and the original >"Authentication II" on Joe Firmage's site, the owner and Top >Secret Control Number of SOM 1-01 has been identified. >Hamilton states the Special Operations Manual 1-01 indeed has a >Top Secret Control number. The discussion in the Woods' >"Authentication II" does not indicate they found a TS Control >Number, however, they do indicate that the manual apparently is >stamped Kirtland Air Force Base, New Mexico. >If there is a TS Control Number and a stamp indicating that the >document belonged to Kirkland AFB, NM, then you have an obvious >FOIA. The obvious thing to do is FOIA Kirkland AFB using their >TS Control Number. In my opinion, this is the second very interesting information in a week, on the question of controversial documents on alleged secret operations of the "crash-retrieval" kind. The first one was last Monday: Bob Shell clearly confirmed that captain McAndrew had told him he saw the Alien Autopsy footage in the USAF film archives, before it was released by Ray Santilli. Thank you, Bob, for this remarkable information which raises a lot of questions. I am a little surprised (not so much, in fact), that there is, so far, no reaction on this List to this most intriguing revelation. Too embarrassing ? Let's reproduce the key point of the message ("Santilli's Film Scraps", 01/02/99), where Bob Shell answered my question about the date at which McAndrew would have seen the film: >I don't think he mentioned a specific date but I had the >impression from context that he was speaking of seeing it some >years earlier. He also indicated having seen more of the film >than Santilli had. I also wondered why the author of the "Roswell Case Closed", official and final burial ot Roswell by the Air Force in 1997, could possibly have said that to one of the main researchers of the AA footage. Bob Shell's comment : >He did a good job, apparently. He was promoted out of this job >and sent off to spook school. The second information, on the purported SOM-01 Majestic -12 Group Special Operations Manual, on the subject of "Extraterrestrial Entities and technology, Recovery and Disposal", received by Don Berliner in an anonymous mail, is at the center of the present debate on new MJ-12 documents. One one hand, a series of crictics have already denounced convincingly at least two new documents as fabrications: - the "celestrial document" , analysed by Bruce Maccabee ("Oppenheimer and Einstein - New MJ-12 Doc", 21/01/99) ; - the "Annual document", with a "fatal flaw" denounced by Barry Greenwood (UFO Historical review N=B03), the tale of the Gallipoli regiment. Some had already concluded that, since there are two faked documents, the same goes with the rest. But the discovery of a Top Secret number on the SOM-01 document, and its origin, Kirtland AFB (again!), forces us to a consider a more complex analysis. It suddenly reinforces the opinion, notably of Dr Wood, that these documents are basically genuine. Unless they are "falsely genuine" as suggested by Greenwood himself in his Revue (in France, the Ministry of the Interior is known to have issued "true-false" documents, and everybody laughs at that). So, we have, probably, "true-false" documents around. Who made them? The last two findings strongly suggest that they come - some of them at least (and probably many) - from Intelligence services. Some located, notably, at Kirtland AFB, already famous for its Richard Doty and Captain Collins productions at AFOSI. Next question: Why did they do that? The common wisdom is that they have been made as debunking operations. The scenario goes like this : a true-false document is released anonymously, and is sufficiently impressive to "hook" a good number of researchers. But it falls apart later when "fatal flaws" are discovered, like a worm in the fruit. Then, of course, the choir of skeptics lament on the gullibility of "true believers". Very efficient scenario, which has worked well to debunk the mounting evidence on Roswell and the "after Roswell". Such is the "Hoax-Debunking scenario". Not entirely satisfactory, however, because it fails to explain the wealth of informations and details which are slowly corroborated in the process. The first MJ-12 "Briefing for the President" was confirmed and enriched by another one, shown to Linda Howe. Both were confirmed by two masked agent at the TV show "UFO Cover-Up ? Live !", later identified as Collins and Doty. Before that, Emenegger had been offered several thousand feet of film on the first ET landing at Holloman AFB (confirmed later by Paul Shartle, who received him at Norton AFB), and Linda Howe was offered the same ten years later. And so on, endlessly. So, I raise the question again: could it be that, at least in some quarters of the vast intelligence world, with probably diverging tendencies and opinions (think only of the three main military branches, not to forget the civilian), some group, or groups, follow a sophisticated policy of gradual revelations, under cautious control (the revelations can always be easily denied and debunked)? If this is not the case, why all those weird, progressively reinforced, information? Regards to all, Gildas Bourdais
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 6 Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net> Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 10:28:26 -0500 Fwd Date: Sat, 06 Feb 1999 10:58:03 -0500 Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >From: Mark Cashman <mcashman@ix.netcom.com> >Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 13:54:40 -0500 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >>From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com> >>Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 09:48:26 EST >>To: updates@globalserve.net >>Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >>Now as many of you know I dabble here and there in science >>fiction. (See, Stan, it's really no big deal.) Anyway, I picked >>up a copy of the 1966 movie, 'Mars Needs Women' and was >>immediately struck by the look of the Martians as compared to >>the Schirmer drawing. Schirmer seems to be the only one who >>reported the alien's head gear with a little radio unit over the >>ear with an antenna sticking up, exactly the same costume in >>'Mars Needs Women'. >This assertion bothers me for a number of reasons. >First, that one can find a correlation between the appearance of >an entity and a portrayal of an entity in the media does not >prove that the media portrayal caused or influenced the report. >To demonstrate such a claim requires showing an actual causal >chain between the portrayal and the report - of which, not >least, one must demonstrate that the witness saw the media >presentation in question. >Second, if there are several cases with similar characteristics, >one must show that all of these witnesses saw the presentation >in question. >Third, one must explain why one portrayal rather than many >others in the media caused this specific result. For instance, >why don't aliens look like Michael Rennie? Or Exeter in 'This >Island Earth'? Or even the 'Mu-tant' of TIE. <more snipped> I've stayed out of this discussion, but I want to say that, once again, Mark and I agree. I've made much the same argument in my essay "The Abduction Conundrum," soon to be published in Dennis Stacy and Patrick Huyghe's "The Anomalist." One further problem with these assertions of media influence is that -- at least as I've seen them made (maybe Kevin's book will make a better case) -- they can't be falsified. Martin Kottmeyer (who's made these assertions more strongly than anyone else) says the aliens Betty and Barney Hill described derive from an "Outer Limits" episode televised not long before the Hills were hypnotized. Betty Hill says they didn't watch the eipsode, and in fact never watched science ficition on TV. A skeptic, supporting Kottmeyer, can then say that she's lying, that her memory is faulty, or that the Hills heard about the Outer Limits aliens from friends. And there's no way to prove that the skeptic isn't right. But if there's no way to prove that the Hills' aliens didn't come from the media, how can there be any way to prove that they did? These claims of media influence need a much firmer foundation. Greg Sandow
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 6 Ufology II: Some Final Answers - On Disc From: Francis Ridge <slk@EVANSVILLE.NET> Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 19:30:35 -0600 Fwd Date: Sat, 06 Feb 1999 11:10:15 -0500 Subject: Ufology II: Some Final Answers - On Disc January 1999 PRESS RELEASE Milestone in UFO studies published on floppy disc More than two decades ago, the author introduced a new and fruitflil approach to analysing UFO reports in a book, Ufology, New Insights From Science And Common Sense. The basic idea was to focus upon the unusual and puzzling phenomena that were observed, then search for scientific explanations. Experimental data published in the literature of mainstream science was used to convert general concepts into detailed descriptions. It was sometimes possible to reproduce the effects in simple experiments on a work bench. The specific, physical processes established, beyond doubt, the nature of complex, electromagnetic fields surrounding UFOs that are artifacts of their propulsion system. Research continued along this line with periodic communiques over the ensuing years. Findings were released in many articles in UFO journals and presentations in scientific and public forums. Most of that work never reached a large audience and subsequently became buried in a limited number of out-of-print documents that were usually filed away and eventually tossed out. Many people who have become interested in UFOs during recent years have no idea of the amount of progress that has been made in understanding UFOs. For that reason, the author has compiled most of his writings onto an IBM 3 =BD " diskette. The text was written in the WRITE program of Microsoft Windows 3.1 that is easily read directly or with most word processors. Some chapters delve into rather obscure, technical areas but are written so that the general reader can follow the arguments. Scientific veracity, however, is preserved to challenge the most critical professional. In addition, several essays are included on social issues arising from UFOs. Chapters on general problems include Scientific Challenge, Interpreting Reports, Hot Rings, and Ripples. Disruption of vehicles is coverd in Engine Interference, Self-Starting, Diesels, and Batteries. Radio Effects provide quantitative data on Fadeout, Silence, and unassisted Station Changes. Human body changes are Sounds, Odors, Tastes, and Paralysis. Social questions are addressed on Attitudes of Scientitsts, Public Opinion, Communication with ETs, and UFO influence upon society at large. To obtain a copy, order UFOlogy II: Some Final Answers, from Digital Books, 12 Bryce Court, Belmont CA 94002, U.S.A. The price of $l0 includes domestic shipping and handling. Foreign orders add $1.50. James M. McCampbell Director of Research, 1975-93 Mutual UFO Network, Inc. Support AND USE the research web sites by sending $1 a month to: Sites 618 Davis Drive Mt. Vernon, IN 47620 Main InterLink Site Directory: http://www.evansville.net/~slk/InterLink.html
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 6 What's New At Magonia From: Mark Pilkington <m.pilkington@virgin.net> Date: Sat, 06 Feb 1999 14:01:43 +0000 Fwd Date: Sat, 06 Feb 1999 11:28:10 -0500 Subject: What's New At Magonia http://www.magonia.demon.co.uk/newmag.htm 06/02/99 Magonia covers gallery. A fine selection of past Magonia covers in all their greyscale glory. Abduction Watch #18 Don Worley rides again; more on Leir's improbable implants; BUFORA news Majestical Mystery Tour In the wake of yet more supposed MJ-12 papers, the late Ralph Noyes on the original fiasco. UFO Encyclopedia With the help of a bed side forklift truck, John Harney gets stuck into Jerome Clark's magnum opus. The Creative Fire Martin Kottmeyer on encounters and the artistic impulse. Future Shock & UFO cults Back in 1973, Peter Rogerson took a highly prescient look at the effects of social change on UFO cults. Mark Pilkington ------------------------------------------------ Magonia Online http://www.magonia.demon.co.uk "Mutated beaver's pretty good. But mutated beavers that can telepath and teleport are really something." Bron Fane, Rodent Mutation
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 6 Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality From: Leanne Martin <leanne_martin@hotmail.com> Date: Sat, 06 Feb 1999 08:03:47 PST Fwd Date: Sat, 06 Feb 1999 16:35:37 -0500 Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >From: Mark Cashman <mcashman@ix.netcom.com> >Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 13:54:40 -0500 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >>From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com> >>Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 09:48:26 EST >>To: updates@globalserve.net >>Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality G'day Mark & List, >>Now as many of you know I dabble here and there in science >>fiction. (See, Stan, it's really no big deal.) Anyway, I picked >>up a copy of the 1966 movie, 'Mars Needs Women' and was >>immediately struck by the look of the Martians as compared to >>the Schirmer drawing. Schirmer seems to be the only one who >>reported the alien's head gear with a little radio unit over the >>ear with an antenna sticking up, exactly the same costume in >>'Mars Needs Women'. >This assertion bothers me for a number of reasons. >First, that one can find a correlation between the appearance of >an entity and a portrayal of an entity in the media does not >prove that the media portrayal caused or influenced the report. >To demonstrate such a claim requires showing an actual causal >chain between the portrayal and the report - of which, not >least, one must demonstrate that the witness saw the media >presentation in question. **We can also calculate the statistical likelihood that a person may have exprienced such imagery in their life prior to a claim of abduction (and be totally forgetful of same). (Any good statisticians out there wanna tackle this one?) Lets see... movies where the 'abductee' may have seen a text or sub-text that matches their story very closely (M), percentage of population that saw this/these movies in 'abductee's demographic for screen release and t.v./video use = (X)[for exposure quotient], the percentage of people who see a movie but forget they saw it (tricky one that)... Well it looks pretty mind blowing to me already but IMHO there'd be someone who'd give it a go - I throw down the gauntlet to someone who can solve this, for want of a better name, Martin MIME - Movie Imagery Memory Equation!!! I may even buy a bottle of Dr. Gesundt's Gripple (via Dr. Mortellaro) for a widely accepted equation. A minor but important note here: Humans have evolved as a very visually oriented species. The development of the brain and the visual parts of it have gone on hand-in-hand. >Second, if there are several cases with similar characteristics, >one must show that all of these witnesses saw the presentation >in question. >Third, one must explain why one portrayal rather than many >others in the media caused this specific result. For instance, >why don't aliens look like Michael Rennie? Or Exeter in 'This >Island Earth'? Or even the 'Mu-tant' of TIE. This can tie in with the visually related 'acceptance' of the movie - 'I couldn't really get into it 'coz the sets weren't real enough' or 'the characterizations were bad' or 'Klaatu was obviously a man in a silver rubber suit and that ruined it for me'. We're really getting down to the nitty-gritty of human make-up here with all its individual perceptive/relative/calculative goings on that are essentially unique to each individual. This, of course, filters through to what the sub-conscious chooses to file away and how it is cross-referenced for future application to other, seemingly un- related, stimuli. >These films both had much larger circulation than 'Mars Needs >Women' (which, by the way, I have seen, and I must admit I don't >recall the costume to which Kevin refers, and I have a fairly >good memory). Don't forget, even children know (on average) when what they're watching is a fiction and file it accordingly - they get more distressed by what they see on the news (as I do). A good movie like 'The Day The Earth Stood Still' may have been 'good' only for the message - more cerebral than merely visual - yet a movie like "Mars Needs Women" was more memorable for its primal imagery - "Bugger you mate, we need to reproduce and survive!". Also, in this movie we had reinforcement of the 'females as male property' sub-text where the fight is between the males over one of their 'resoureces'. Now isn't there a parallel in the aliens abducting women for reproductive experiments here - maybe you only looked at it from a male's perspective? (No wonder leaving this List is so attractive at times you big lug! <BG>) Oddly, Michael Rennie's message is remembered by those 'abductees' who deliver the same message he did as assistant to Klaatu. So don't think his movie had no effect... "Repent your ways and work together or you're all in deep sh*t!" What other movies can you think of where the visual message, or the cerebral, has been infused in an 'abductee's story? You forgot the bleeding obvious! 'Invasion Of The Body Snatchers'!!! Where else can you find all the elements that we need to comply with both the visual and cerebral message processors sucking up the imagery? Feedback here please ... <g> >Also, why is there no correspondence in plot or dialog, or any >other aspects except appearance? Remeber how we have become visually attuned (see above) and your studies on the visual processing aspects of the brain at uni...? When abductees are interviewed what is that they are first asked?? More of the bleeding obvious > "Tell me what you saw" (Would the same be asked of a blind 'abductee' (anyone got any stats on these folk? Are there any?) >I seem to recall that Freud hypothesized that symbolic content >in dreams was derived from events of the last few days, and was >seldom based on the events of that specific day. I imagine that >it needs study to determine the prevalence of recent and distant >past events in confabulated accounts from hypnotic subjects, >and, as far as I know, that work has not been done. If it were >done, and it had a time horizon similar to Freud's hypothesis, >the constraints on media related theories would be tightened, >and proof/disproof of such claims would be more readily >available. Forget Freud and look at Jung. Also, any 'normal' person can be readily trained to 'guide' their dreams with practice- some of these individuals may already be doing it but are unaware of same. Therefore redirecting their dreams via the concerns of the day. >It seems to me that such claims are usually unverifiable. Those >who claim that UFO or abduction events are based on the media >rarely try to prove that the media presentation was available to >the reporter. And if it is proven that it was not, then the >assertion is made that the witness just doesn't remember. It's >hardly scientific. And few recognize that even if the portrayal >was available to the witness, that this still does not represent >a causal chain. After all, why this witness and not everyone who >saw the portrayal? This question gets down to the basics of what makes you you and me me. We process so much of what we percieve so similarly to others and yet so individually dissimilar from others based on our individual make- up (life experiences, pre-dispositions, mental state [ill, tired or drug effected etc.]). It is no wonder that there is such a diversity of expressed abduction experiences out there and yet they can be sub divided into similar groupings based on the experiencer's perception of events. >Then there is the issue of media portrayals of something which >is fairly constrained. For instance, humanoid aliens. While we >can't say anything about alien life in general, there are >reasons to believe that evolution might favor bilateral >creatures with sense organs concentrated in the head (for >instance, I refer you to Wigglesworth's "The Life Of Insects). >Yet it seems to me that by the same reasoning Kevin uses to >attribute Schirmer's recollections to popular culture, one might >attribute all occupant cases involving humanoids to popular >culture as well, despite the evolutionary possibilities (after >all, non-humanoids are sparse in cinema and TV, simply because >of their cost and the difficulty of doing good drama with them). >I suspect that would not be wise :-) >As I pointed out in my recent IUR article, that while special >effects can reproduce the appearance of UFOs on film, this >cannot be constituted a proof that UFOs do not exist, any more >than similar reproductions consititute a proof that airplanes >and bridges do not exist. The same logic applies to the idea >that the existence of a similar media portrayal invalidates a >UFO case. >Finally, we must be cautious, as always, in interpreting the >results of hypnosis, especially when hypnosis is used to recall >traumatic events. We don't know as much as we should about this >subject. Some researchers suggest that traumatic memories are >better than normal memories. Others suggest that PTSD can >distort traumatic memories. It is certainly possible that at >least some of those recalling encounters under hypnosis are >distorting or confabulating a less threatening experience to >defend their sanity against the real memories. This certainly >would represent an inlet for cultural phenomena to stand in >place of real events, without invalidating those events. As a PTSD experiencer I can vouch for the distortion of memory (self induced 'forgetfulness' 'coz no way do I wanna remember all my assault) and my conscious recall refuses to go past a certain point. I refuse hypnosis because I don't want to relive certain events in my life - however shortsighted that attitude may be... Regards, Leanne ];-)
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 6 UFO 30 miles NNW of Philadelphia, Pa. From: Mark Isganitis <isganim@enter.net> Date: Sat, 06 Feb 1999 11:21:23 Fwd Date: Sat, 06 Feb 1999 16:51:28 -0500 Subject: UFO 30 miles NNW of Philadelphia, Pa. Hi all! Last night, Friday Feb 5, 1999 between 6:30 and 7:00 pm EST my family and I observed a very unusual light in the evening sky in Telford Pa, about 30 miles NNW of Philadelphia. It was about 30 degrees above the southeast horizon. We observed it through binoculars and a small telescope. It was a very bright sparkling object, which rapidly flashed in all colors. It was smaller in size than either Jupiter or Venus, but noticibly brighter than either which were both observable in the southwest last evening. My telescope is powerful enough to show the disc of Jupiter, with the cloud bands and moons clearly visible, but when trained on this object, all that was visible was a bright sparkling point of light shooting off colored sparks or spikes. There were also lots of planes around to compare it to, but there was no resemblance. Mark Isganitis isganim@enter.net
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 6 Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com> Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 11:22:59 EST Fwd Date: Sat, 06 Feb 1999 16:58:39 -0500 Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 20:48:14 -0500 >From: Mendoza <DarkSecretPB@compuserve.com> >Subject: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >With the compliments of the Duke of Mendoza: >>From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net> >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >>Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >>Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 21:20:22 -0500 >After establishing some common ground, Greg says: >>If abduction investigators believe abductions are real, it's >>perfectly reasonable for them to act on that belief. >The pivotal words here are "believe" and "belief" and "act". If >I believe that the Earth is flat, or that the Pope is the >Anti-Christ, that is one thing. If I act on it by misleading >those ill-informed in history and astronomy and theology, or by >attempting to assassinate astronomers or blow up the Vatican - >or by throwing hand-grenades into Catholic bars in Londonderry - >there is nothing perfectly reasonable about it at all. Hmmm... according to that Merriam person, 'belief' means conviction of the truth of some statement or the reality of some being or phenomenon esp. when based on examination of evidence.. And the key word here is evidence. According to Dylan, when you aint got no faith, then you got unbelief. What ho, yon merry con? >Belief in abductions is just that. There is no empirical >evidence, no plausible third-party testimony (as one has for the >existence of transient phenomena like thunderstorms, for >example), no physical evidence that can be linked unequivocally >to the alleged event - whether scar, implant or souvenir from >spaceship - and no consistency even in the subjective testimony >from one abduction narrative to another. The stories themselves >have parallels in both folklore and in other subjective >experiences (e.g. fairy lore, shamanism, witchcraft, >psychotropic drugs, religious revelation). The allegedly >symptomatic experiences - the subject of the five key Roper poll >questions - have multiple other known causes well documented in >medical and psychological literature. All the hypotheses for the >objective origins of the aliens (time travel, interdimensional >beings, ETH, &c &c) are not only unfalsifiable per se but best >labelled speculative. The chosen investigative method, hypnosis, >has been shown to be unreliable _as a general tool_ in every >other application it has had on what is essentially a malleable >and little understood entity, memory. See my monograph on what those who have "memories" of abductions think of those who who insist we don't. Uh, BTW, it is defintely OK to suggest we may not. But don't anybody tell us we "don't" What was I talking about? Oh well.... onwards and upwards.... we continue... >Every foundation of the abduction construction industry - and >I've not even touched on the madness of "genetic manipulation" - How dare you, Sir, imply that my "genetics" have been manipulated. I was brought up to _understand_ that the only time I touch my genetic is when it needs to be serviced... uh, sorry, cleaned! And, I just happen to have one of those high mileage jobs, you know, the one what gets serviced but once every 100,000 miles! What gall you have, Sir! >is wobbly and ambiguous, but here we are presented with a chorus >line who have solved _all_ those problems, to their own Once again you call us wobbly and ambiguous and we have not even _touched_ the Gripple! A pox on your soul... should you have one, Sir! >satisfaction at any rate, and proceed to "act" on it, creating a >massive mythology so pervasive in American and large chunks of >European culture that anyone who thinks hard enough about it (I >speak as one who can answer Yes to four of the five key Roper >questions) can imagine themselves a potential abductee, and whom >you still manage to call that "reasonable"? Yes, but only on alternate Thursday when the moon is in it's waxing gibbeous! >The Boylans and Fiores of the world are no worse than the >Hopkins, Jacobs and Macks of the world: the former two just >happened to work within a professional framework sufficiently >established and impartial that their _un_willing victims could >stop them in their tracks. Note that I am implying it takes two >to create an abduction, and it's no great psychological surprise >that some people feel happiest when cast in the role of victim. >(Which is not to say that all who believe they've been abducted <Snipe, I mean Snip> <Snip, I mean Snipe> >I can >only applaud when John Velez - who ought to know, what? - >counsels people curious or worried about their anomalous >experiences not to go to an abduction researcher. >>To see how far into danger you've gone, let's ask which >>abduction investigators might be ignorant, wilfully or not, >>of abnormal psychology. >All you present here are assumptions and speculations: Well Duh! That's about all we got, silly person! <snip> >Nor do they offer any evidence that they have considered and >eliminated a myriad other possible interpretations _in >individual cases_ of what they are dealing with. Jacobs spends >several pages skimming over skeptical objections in "Secret >Life", and each one of his treatments can be exposed as fatuous. >I've done the necessary on several. Jacobs has also shown >himself to be absolutely intellectually dishonest - yes I will >repeat this charge - by publicly persisting in his claims of >alien-induced pregnancy within just a few months of that myth >being demolished at the MIT conference; and in due course >following them with the paranoid ramblings of "The Threat". >Jacobs is actually the trickiest of all the abductologists >because he describes themes, not individual cases, which is >useful to a folklorist but of no utility whatever to anyone >wanting insight into his method, or to get a handle on the >context from which his subjects come. Mack comes the cleanest, >and sinks his own boat the fastest. It's patently bloody obvious >that he made no attempt whatever to explore anything but his >"alien view" of what his subjects were reporting, and took every >word of it at face value, and has that wonderful passage in >which he more or less admits that his subjects' accounts are >confabulated between them and himself. But then Mack doesn't >"believe" in science either, so all is forgiven (?). Excuse me, Sir... but when the frost is on the pumpkin, that's the time for Dick to go a-dunkin ... see my point? Shoot, it's right up there on the top of my head! >>Ufologists investigating UFO sightings normally don't run into >>people as distressed as abductees. One thing that will _not_ >>work -- either humanly, or as the basis for an investigation -- >>is to question abductees in a detached, rigorous, neutral >>manner, as Hendry questioned those who reported seeing UFOs. >Why ever not? None of these adjectives precludes sympathy, as >you imply. "Just the facts, ma'am" can be uttered as kindly and >soothingly as it can harshly. >>Which is not to say you have to assume the reality of >>abductions. But you have to at least grant the possibility (so >>the abductees don't think you're saying they're crazy) >I wish sympathizers with the abduction scenario would be >consistent. On the one hand we are told abductees would rather >be told they're crazy than be abductees, on the other we're told >they can't take being thought crazy. Wasn't it you what said "just the facts?" Listen Bubba, you got it all bass ackwards.... the abductee is the person who thought he or she was crazy all along... until they discovered that others had the exact (nearly) same memories.... shared whackoid syphilitic postal ramblings of the damned? Point... it's one thing (and it's OK) for me to think I'm crazy, knowing full well that it is highly unlikely that I aint since I think I might be. But for _you_ or someone other than myself to think this is a possibility is unacceptable. And, have you tried Pepto Bismol? If that stuff does not work for you, allow me to send you a complimentary Gripple Dripple. >I will end by repeating Now this is getting interesting - and on two counts.... first, we can see the end coming (thanks Gods) and two, it does tend to repeat. Like a meal that continues to make itself evident that not all garlic is created Equal. >what I've said countless times, Countless! ... are we having fun yet? >which is that I don't think Which is _my_ point exactly! >abductees are crazy, and that this is a false dichotomy put >about by abductologists subtly to bolster the appearance of >reasonableness for their case. You don't have to be nuts to have >weird, frightening experiences that you can't explain, any more >than you have to be a pinked-up floozie in provocative clothing >in order to be raped. But a bizarre, terrifying and inexplicable >experience, or even set of circumstances, do not an abduction >make. Oh my gosh! Oh my heavens and stars! I have completely misconscrewed your tome. I had no idea you felt this way. I take back everything I said about you and more imnportant.... all those things I didn't say because EBK wouldn't have let me say it here. Sheesh. I _am_ so sorry. Forgive me Mr. Fretlox Q. Peducal, for I have failed you in my harder... larder... arder..... whatever... but I can be forgiven beCAUS, I don't even LOOK at it but once in a 100,000. >Well, actually, no - I won't end there: on a mildly placatory >note, I'll sign off instead by saying that these generalizations >in which Greg and I have been dealing will not ultimately get us >very far, saying yea and nay, and so on, and actually don't >reflect large areas of agreement we actually share. Our >different stances might be more fruitfully applied to a >particular case. Still better, a case nominated by someone else. >What say? Yah.... what you said! And remember, I am not just a client of Gripple. I am also the.... uh, I am the.... I forgot! Have another sip and get a grip! Gesundt
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 6 Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality From: Leanne Martin <leanne_martin@hotmail.com> Date: Sat, 06 Feb 1999 08:25:29 PST Fwd Date: Sat, 06 Feb 1999 17:02:29 -0500 Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 20:48:14 -0500 >From: Mendoza <DarkSecretPB@compuserve.com> >Subject: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >With the compliments of the Duke of Mendoza: >>From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net> >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >>Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >>Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 21:20:22 -0500 >After establishing some common ground, Greg says: >>If abduction investigators believe abductions are real, it's >>perfectly reasonable for them to act on that belief. <snip> >Well, actually, no - I won't end there: on a mildly placatory >note, I'll sign off instead by saying that these generalizations >in which Greg and I have been dealing will not ultimately get us >very far, saying yea and nay, and so on, and actually don't >reflect large areas of agreement we actually share. Our >different stances might be more fruitfully applied to a >particular case. Still better, a case nominated by someone else. >What say? >best wishes >Perchtickler D. Mackerelsmoke >Pole Reverser Dear Herr Mackere;smoke, Well said, here-here, congratulations! ];-)
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 6 Re: Premature Birth & Abduction? From: Leanne Martin <leanne_martin@hotmail.com> Date: Sat, 06 Feb 1999 08:31:23 PST Fwd Date: Sat, 06 Feb 1999 17:10:09 -0500 Subject: Re: Premature Birth & Abduction? >Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 20:48:17 -0500 >From: [Peter Brookesmith] Mendoza <DarkSecretPB@compuserve.com> >Subject: Premature Birth & Abduction? >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >>From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com> >>Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 09:54:07 EST >>To: updates@globalserve.net >>Subject: Re: Premature Birth & Abduction? >>I asked Lawson when I interviewed him >>on my radio show, "How does fetus know what it looks like?" If >>it doesn't know what it looks like, then it can't be providing a >>"memory" of it in its original state. >>Lawson's answer was, "It just does." >>Such an answer does not work. Anyone who thinks about it >>realizes that the fetus can't see itself in the womb because >>there is no reflective surface and there is no light. Lawson's >>Birth Trauma Hypothesis fails at that point. >I found this: >"Travis Walton's uncomfortable familiarity with his fetal aliens >was really a shock of recognition from a semi-forgotten >perinatal memory of his own fetal body shape. Fetuses touch >themselves constantly, as ultrasound monitoring proves, and so >it must follow that they develop a sense of their own body >image. How can they suck their thumb, turn a somersault, or >reach for and hold their umbilical cord when startled, as they >do, without some body familiarity?" >It comes from: >wysiwyg://52/http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Corridor/8148/lawson5.html >which is an undated Usenet post (or part of one) from Al Lawson. >Even if you don't buy Lawson's thesis it's worth reading for >many other wise and/or provocative comments on abduction claims >and ufology in general. >However, even if that (above) answers the question of foetal >self-awareness, it doesn't tell me why or how my putative and >presumably buried memory of myself as a foetus, or of being >born, should translate itself into a fantasy (Lawson's term) >about *other* little foetal nasties doing horrid things to me >during my abduction, or why I should want to create a fantasy >about them abducting me in the first place. >However again. The foetal appearance of the Standard Gray, and >their unseemly interest in all things sexual, the business about >hybrids and the dying race, all point to the abduction scenario >(if accepted as fantasy) having reproduction as a crucial theme. >One reason why I don't find the San Olmos Sasquatch's "Abortion >Anxiety Hypothesis" as weird as some. My dear Mr. Mercury (are you related to Freddie?) & List, See my prior post answering a 'Mars Needs Women' issue. Is the corollary of this 'Earth Girls Are Easy'? <G> >Just stirring up the mud. >best wishes >Pluto D. Mercury >Circular Sore Stirring the possum, Leanne ];-)
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 6 Re: Premature Birth & Abduction? From: Leanne Martin <leanne_martin@hotmail.com> Date: Sat, 06 Feb 1999 08:34:51 PST Fwd Date: Sat, 06 Feb 1999 17:24:21 -0500 Subject: Re: Premature Birth & Abduction? >From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: Re: Premature Birth & Abduction? >Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 22:42:41 -0500 <snip> >The Travis Walton case did have witnesses, but they didn't see >an abduction as such. They said they saw Walton struck by a beam >of light from some unknown object. The case in which witnesses >really did supposedly see an abduction in progress is the Linda >"Cortile" case (that's not her real last name), investigated by >Budd Hopkins, who wrote about it in a book appropriately titled >"Witnessed." Here, though, we have a few problems. Four >witnesses supposedly saw the abduction, but one denies it, and >two of the others are shadowy figures that even Hopkins never >met (he got letters from them, but otherwise can't prove that >they even exist). The fourth supposed witness talked extensively >with him, but then decided to drop all contact, and never >confirmed the story to anyone else. I reviewed this case in >great detail for IUR, the CUFOS publication. I can't say it's a >hoax, but I also can't prove that it's real. So we really don't >have any solid, witnessed abduction case. Greg, Is the above cited case the one supposedly witnessed near a bridge in New York? regards, Leanne ];-)
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 6 Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net> Date: Sat, 06 Feb 99 12:17:04 PST Fwd Date: Sat, 06 Feb 1999 17:32:28 -0500 Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com> >Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 09:44:20 EST >To: updates@globalserve.net >Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >>Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >>From: Mark Cashman <mcashman@ix.netcom.com> >>Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 13:54:40 -0500 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >>>From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com> >>>Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 09:48:26 EST >>>To: updates@globalserve.net >>>Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >>Also, why is there no correspondence in plot or dialog, or any >>other aspects except appearance? >>It seems to me that such claims are usually unverifiable. Those >>who claim that UFO or abduction events are based on the media >>rarely try to prove that the media presentation was available to >>the reporter. And if it is proven that it was not, then the >>assertion is made that the witness just doesn't remember. It's >>hardly scientific. And few recognize that even if the portrayal >>was available to the witness, that this still does not represent >>a causal chain. After all, why this witness and not everyone who >>saw the portrayal? >Given the timing, I did try to find out when Mars Needs Women >was circulated in the Midwest by reading the newspaper ads in >1966. Given the promotion of films in that era, that is, large >newspaper ads when the films changed (usually in midweek), it is >possible that Schirmer didn't see the movie, but saw the ads. >And how do you prove that a particular presentation wasn't >available to a specific witness? In this case, it is possible >that Schirmer didn't see the movie and could tell us that he >didn't see it. But, does that mean he didn't see the ads for it >in the newspaper? That he didn't walk by the theater and see the >posters out front displaying the Martians and their headgear? >Could it be that he noticed something from the pop culture that, >for some reason, stuck in his mind and then, under the influence >of hypnosis, recalled that detail? In other words, Kevin, your hypothesis is unfalsifiable. As you express it, there is no way to prove that Herb Schirmer was not exposed to these images and was, moreover, not influenced by them. Even if he didn't see the movie, he _must_ have been influenced them. Moreover, even if nothing else in his testimony sounds like anything in this silly SF movie, the differences don't matter, according to you, only the similarities. Incidentally, Schirmer's entities are not unique to Schirmer's account. Oh excuse me -- I forgot. Everybody else who speaks of such beings is under the influence of Schirmer's story. No wonder we're getting nowhere. Jerry Clark
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 6 Re: Firsts On NBC's 'Confirmation' From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com> Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 11:44:29 EST Fwd Date: Sat, 06 Feb 1999 17:28:33 -0500 Subject: Re: Firsts On NBC's 'Confirmation' >From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@get2net.dk> >Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 08:54:18 +0100 (MET) >Subject: Firsts On NBC's 'Confirmation' >To: updates@globalserve.net >Source: UltimateTV >http://www.ultimatetv.com:80/news/f/a/99/02/02febprog >rams.html >Stig >*** >A First-Rate February >A Look at February Sweeps >by Michele Marks >First-rate programming for viewers of all ages is what you can >expect for the month of February. Miniseries and awards shows >top the list of programming for ABC, CBS and NBC. ><snip> >"Confirmation: Hard Evidence Of Aliens Among Us," Feb. 17 >(8-10pm), is an NBC two-hour special based on Whitley Strieber's >best-selling book. The controversial and disturbing production >explores evidence that planet Earth has been visited by UFOs and >alien beings. One of the highlights of the unique presentation >will be the first on-camera removal of an alleged alien implant. >Viewers will also see - for the very first time - controversial >recorded information that attests to the possibility that we >have been visited by alien spacecraft and aliens. >So, whatever planet you come from, February is a first-rate >viewing month. >Copyright 1994-1999 UltimateTV Dear List and Dear Whitty.... from the Bard.... "It's my work, he'd say, and I do it for pay. And when it's all over, just as soon be on my way. Up to some paradise. Where the trout streams flow and the air is nice. And ride a horse along the trail. But then they took him to a jail house. Where they tried to turn a man into a mouse." Copy, right? Yes, Robert Zimmerman Rimbaud 1985 - a prescient little wine, fruity yet unstable. Gesundt
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 6 Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net> Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 12:29:25 -0500 Fwd Date: Sat, 06 Feb 1999 17:38:18 -0500 Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 20:48:14 -0500 >From: Mendoza <DarkSecretPB@compuserve.com> >Subject: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> Peter has given us an admirably eloquent -- wonderfully passionate, too -- summary of his views on abductions, which will find a permanent place on my hard drive. Thanks, Peter. And I like the cooperative spirit of your idea that we both examine a single case. We've certainly shown in our many private and public conversations that we can agree on both facts and methods. I do think, though, that whatever case we looked at should be meticulously documented in overwhelming detail. There's also a problem with first-hand investigation -- ideally I'd want to do some, since abduction cases normally are strewn with factual claims that are hard to evaluate. But how would Peter in Wales and me in New York do gumshoe work on the same material? (Maybe by phone.) I might nominate (off the top of my head) the case of "Beth and Anna," as set forth in their book "Connections." But the problem there is precisely the web of factual claims that Peter would certainly -- and correctly -- want to see documented. (I also might have to back out, because of other pressing business. Some of my friends on this list, who know the current state of my professional life, will understand.) But now for an unfortunately lengthy response to Peter's last. Even at the risk of straining our friendship, I want to point out what I believe is a problem with the way he presents his opinions. This was what I was getting at in the post he answered, though he didn't (in my view) explicitly respond to what I was trying to say. Peter cites many familiar criticisms of abduction research, adding some of his own. These criticisms are important, and of course need to be addressed. (Most of them have been, which is not to say that the answers given are conclusive.) But Peter overstates these criticisms, treating allegations as if they were certainties, proved beyond a shadow of doubt. Then, having established -- at least for himself -- that these arguments against "abductologists" are iron-clad, he then rebukes abduction researchers for "intellectual dishonesty" or "wilful ignorance," as if they were trying to convince us that the sky is green, or that Salieri poisoned Mozart. (To cite a myth in my own field that really has been proven false.) Here are two examples of Peter's overstatements: >Jacobs has also shown >himself to be absolutely intellectually dishonest - yes I will >repeat this charge - by publicly persisting in his claims of >alien-induced pregnancy within just a few months of that myth >being demolished at the MIT conference; The paper at the MIT conference that discussed alien-induced pregancies -- or rather the claims that abductees get pregnant, and that their unborn babies mysteriously disappear -- is "Lack of Proof for Missing Embryo/Fetus Symdrome," by John G. Miller, a California physician who's sympathetic to abduction research. Miller begins this way: "The main focus of this paper is the present lack of objective, medically-acceptable proof that embryos or fetuses are disappearing under mysterious, UFO-related circumstances. I present this as a challenge to all researchers who believe they have seen such cases to come forwrad with clear cut, unequivocal documentation that such events are occurring. I mean no offense to anyone including the researchers who have reported these allegations of alien invervention in pregnancies and the witnesses whose sincerity I have found no reason to doubt." Miller then discusses his medical colleague, Richard Neal, an obstetrician-gynecologist also sympathetic to UFO and abduction research, who tried to find such a case, and failed. Miller mentions a case that ufologist Ann Druffel investigated, in which a supposedly mysterious disappearing pregnancy turned out not be mysterious after all. He mentions many problems with missing-fetus reports (notably their subjectivity), cites six medical reasons for pregnancies to disappear, and disputes the claim, often made by abduction researchers, that doctors wouldn't publish unexplainable data for fear of being sued for malpractice. His conclusion, though, is much milder than Peter would have us believe: "It is hoped that this paper will stimulate rsearchers to focus on this problme in order to find a verifiable ME/FS [missing embryo/fetus syndrome] case. This paper is not meant in a negativistic sense. I still think it is possible that a verifiable case can be found. I think that we have not yet looked hard enough." So the author of the paper Peter cites doesn't believe that he's "demolished" the "myth" of missing fetuses. Peter may disagree with Miller -- he might find Miller's arguments conclusive. But he has no business, given Miller's own position, in phrasing his own conclusions as if they were an absolute certainty. (Peter also doesn't mention the discussion that's printed in the MIT proceedings after Miller's paper, which makes it even clearer that Miller's paper wasn't offered or received as conclusive proof of anything.) As a second example of overstatement, let me quote Peter on hypnosis: >The chosen investigative method, hypnosis, >has been shown to be unreliable _as a general tool_ in every >other application it has had on what is essentially a malleable >and little understood entity, memory. Peter here gives only one side of an ongoing argument among psychologists. It's true that Peter's side has been publishing more papers in psychological journals over the last decade, but there are also papers giving other views -- as Peter perfectly well knows, because he quotes some I told him about in his book. There are also papers and comments in the literature challenging the arguments against hypnosis. So again Peter is entitled to his opinion, but can hardly state it as a certainty. Here are some of Stuart Appelle's comments on hypnosis, from his JUFOS paper on abduction theories (I've removed his many citations to published research): "Of hypnotic memory in general is supect, then hypnotically retrieved memory of abductions must be suspect as well. However, this assumption depends on the extent to which the experimental situation is comparable to that associated with the abduction experience. "[I]n controlled experiments hypnotically enhanced memory is at best only modestly demonstrated. Instead, an increase in pseudomemories (an effect that escalates with increased pressure to recall), increased confidence in the validity of one' s pseudomemories, and increased susceptibility to suggestions or leading questions are more generally the rule. "In theory, therefore, hypnosis should have a greater potential to _create_ abduction experiences than to _retrieve_ them. This is particularly troublesome given that many more abduction reports have emerged in the course of hypnosis than through spontaneous recall. As such, it is not surprising that critics of the abduction phenomenon cite the scientific literature on hypnosis as grounds for dismissing hypnotically retrieved accounts of alien abduction. An evaluation of the argument follows. "Studies that are used to generalize to the abduction experience should involve source (retrieval) materials that are like the abduction experience in quality. Abduction memories are characterized by dynamic, emotionally charedf events that instill trauma, fear, anxiety, confusion, and anger. Moreover, they are characterized by events so unusual as to be outside the range of normal human experience. "In contrat, the bulk of laboratory research has used static and neutral source material such as memorized lists of words. Some studies have used more relevant materials for retrieval such as stress-inducing stimuli, or simulations of emotionally charged events like accidents or crimes. The results of these studies are entirely consistent with those using more mundane materials. However, they still fail to reproduce the 'strangeness' of abduction experiences, or the range and magnitude of emotional states associated with reported abductions. "Moreover, the efficacy of hypnosis in enhancing recall should be related not only to the kind of material to be retrieved, but also to the cuase of forgetting (decay, interference, repression, psychological trauma, etc.). Surprisingly, there exists virtually no research on this issue. For example, there are no systematic investigations of the accuracy or efficacy of hypnotical recall in trauma-induced amnesia. This is unfortunate, because anecdotal reports and case studies regarding recall of traumatic events abound in both the forensic and clinical literature, and provide much of the basis for the belief in hpynotic hypermnesia. [A technical term meaning "enhanced memory."] "Of course, we do not know if the abudction experience follows trauma-induced amnesia. First, this presupposed actual forgetting of some real event (as opposed to an hypnotically-created pseudomemory). Second, it presupposed experienced truama (either to an actual abduction or to some other event for which the recalled abduction is a screen memory). Third, as will be discussesd later, the very concepts of repression and dissociative amnesia are controversial. "There is an additional problem in regard to hypnosis and the mechanisms of forgetting. Real alien abductions might be forgotten because of yet unifentified processes (as suggested by the numerous reports by abduction experiencers of alien mind control). The applicability of hypnosis research to unknown mechanisms cannot, of course, be evaluated." Later in his paper, Appelle suggests that "something about the abduction experience itself [may make] it particularly susceptible to hypnotic procedures. In fact, research has identified several factors that may contribute to this situation. "First, hypnotic recall improves when the material to be remembered is meaningful to the individual, when the emotional, physical, and cognitive conditions of the original experience are hypnotically reinstated, and as context for the event is more highly integrated with the memory to be retrieved. These conditions are common to hypnotic regression for the abduction experience. "Second, research on state-dependent learning suggests that returning to the state of consciousness in which an experinece originally occurred may improve recall. For example, returning to a state of alcohol or marijuana intoxication, or the influence of stimulants improves recall of events that originally occurred durin htose conditions. If hypnosis produces a mental state that in any way resembles the state during which an abduction is originally experienced, recall for that experience could be enhanced. [citation to abduction literature snipped] "Finally, the literature on hypnosis has provided some evidence that information not previously available to consciousness can be retrieved hypnotically. For example, hypnotic recall ahs been reported for stimuli presented subliminally or during general anesthesia. ALthough this research is itself controversial, it implies that informaiton registered outside of normal conscious awareness may be accessed during hypnosis. [citation to abduction literature snipped] "These considerations suggest a basis for the specific hypnotizability obtained for abduction experiences. This should not, however, be confused with an argument for the veridicality of abduction experiences. The factors discussed certainly apply to real events, but they could also apply to experiences originating in the imagination or unconscious." {more in the same vein snipped] Very few summaries in the literature on any subject are (in my experience) as balanced as this. We all can learn from Stuart's careful weighing of opposing views. Peter, I hope you'll take my comments in the spirit in which I offer them. I'd like to remove some of the excess emotion from abduction debate, and avoid language that unavoidably reads as an attack on anyone's character. Greg Sandow
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 6 Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@connectmmic.net> Date: Sat, 06 Feb 1999 13:16:29 -0500 Fwd Date: Sat, 06 Feb 1999 17:44:44 -0500 Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com> >Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 09:44:20 EST >To: updates@globalserve.net >Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >>Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >>From: Mark Cashman <mcashman@ix.netcom.com> >>Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 13:54:40 -0500 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >I have noticed a general trend that seems to reflect this. Many >(though not all) early occupant cases had creatures in "diving >suits" and with tanks on their backs, not unlike those >represented in many of the 1950s science fiction films. >Villas-Boas, for example, described creatures that had this >equipment. Later movies did away with these items when we >started talking of "Earth-like" planets. Occupant reports from >later days seem to have done away with such descriptions as >well. > >Does this suggest a pop cultural contamination? Certainly. Does >it prove it? Certainly not. It is merely an observation which >can be challenged by suggesting that, in the 1950s version of >The Thing, the creature carried no breathing apparatus. Kevin, Mark on: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/dna/ "What Jennifer Saw - How can eyewitness identification go wrong?" "Jennifer Thompson A victim of rape who misidentified her assailant in a photospread and, again, in a physical line up." The assailant, a black, Ronald Cotton, spent ten and a half years in prison and got out because of a DNA test performed on evidence that should have been thrown away long ago. http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/dna/interviews/loftus.html We find Elisabeth Loftus (John's sweetheart...) saying: Q: What happens to memory when you're more excited and in an upsetting situation? LOFTUS: One of the things that we know about memory for very upsetting experiences, traumatic experiences, is that the memory does not work like a videotape recorder. You don't just record the event and play it back later the way a videotape player would work. The process is much more complicated, and actually what's happening is you're storing bits and pieces of the experience. Later, when you try to tell somebody what happened, you are in some sense reconstructing that experience, you're piecing it together and essentially telling a story about your experience. Q: And in a rape case? LOFTUS: Well, one of the things about a rape case, in particular, is, of course, you have people who are very close together. That's almost by definition. And short distances, that's good for memory. But to the extent that you have other factors in the situation that create problems for memory, you can get mistakes. So you do have to ask: Is it a cross-racial identification? Is it a situation where there was tremendous stress and fright? Is it a situation where the victim was given information or feedback or told stories about another victim? If there were things going on that create problems for accurate memory, it's going to affect the memory even if it was a rape, even if the people were very close together to begin with. --- The Thompson-Cotton case is only the tip of the iceberg. My impression is that traumatic events shakes one's conception of reality, in that reality is not reality anymore and at the same time far too real. An educated insurance investigator will tell us that 10 witnesses of the same accident come out with 10 different reports - because the "accident" differs enough from our personal every day experience that we have to change our perception to make it FIT within the boundaries of our perception. The accident took place though. What level does the "alleged" abduction experience reach on the stress scale? If we use the Loftus observations as a crash-checklist, we get: Although short distances are "good for memory", we "have other factors in the situation that create problems for memory", "you can get mistakes". 1. It is a cross-racial identification. 2. It is a situation where there was tremendous stress and fright. 3. Is it a situation where the victim was given information or feedback or told stories about another victim. Using my favorite find and replace tool on the Loftus interview, we get: Well, one of the things about an abduction case, in particular, is, of course, you have people who are very close together. That's almost by definition. If there were things going on that create problems for accurate memory, it's going to affect the memory even if it was a abduction, even if the people were very close together to begin with. --- Should we rely on witness testimony to assert the reality of the abduction experience? Asking the question differently might provide an answer: should we rely on witness testimony to assert the reality of the rape experience? If memory serves, nobody in the Frontline report ever doubted that a rape had taken place: there was evidence, there were other witnesses, all things which lack cruelly in most abductions reports. To have the victim testimony as a last resort to assert the reality of her experience may get us into error. Are there other ways? Well... Did "Women from Mars" have a sequel? ... to be continued (maybe someone will come up with something) Serge Salvaille
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 6 Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com> Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 14:16:15 EST Fwd Date: Sat, 06 Feb 1999 17:50:43 -0500 Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 10:28:26 -0500 >>Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >>From: Mark Cashman <mcashman@ix.netcom.com> >>Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 13:54:40 -0500 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >>>From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com> >>>Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 09:48:26 EST >>>To: updates@globalserve.net >>>Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality <snip> >One further problem with these assertions of media influence is >that -- at least as I've seen them made (maybe Kevin's book will >make a better case) -- they can't be falsified. Martin Kottmeyer >(who's made these assertions more strongly than anyone else) >says the aliens Betty and Barney Hill described derive from an >"Outer Limits" episode televised not long before the Hills were >hypnotized. >Betty Hill says they didn't watch the eipsode, and in fact never >watched science ficition on TV. A skeptic, supporting Kottmeyer, >can then say that she's lying, that her memory is faulty, or >that the Hills heard about the Outer Limits aliens from friends. >And there's no way to prove that the skeptic isn't right. While Betty Hill might have said that she didn't watch the Outer Limits episode in question, and that Barney never watched the Outer Limits either (according to Jerry Clark), that simply doesn't mean that Barney didn't happen to see that one episode or that neither he nor Betty saw previews for it that might have provided the pop cultural cues. However, before this goes much further, we should all retreat to John Fuller's Interrupted Journey in which Betty, while recounting Barney's belief that he had seen a flying saucer through the binoculars said, "And I laughed and asked him if he had watched Twilight Zone recently on TV..." (page 144 hardback) This does not prove that Betty's statement about never watching science fiction on TV is false. It does, however, demonstrate a knowledge of what the Twilight Zone was about. >But if there's no way to prove that the Hills' aliens didn't >come from the media, how can there be any way to prove that they >did? These claims of media influence need a much firmer >foundation. And, once again, I didn't say that pop culture was the influence that created these images, only that we must be aware that they exist and do better than to deny the existence. Clearly there is no way to prove that Barney Hill, for example, picked his aliens from the Outer Limits or pop culture, especially since he is dead. However, we have seen how pop culture can influence what we say and wear and act. KRandle
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 6 Re: 8/27/96 Re: MJ-12 Document From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net> Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 15:29:51 -0400 Fwd Date: Sat, 06 Feb 1999 17:56:51 -0500 Subject: Re: 8/27/96 Re: MJ-12 Document >From: Robert Todd <Bohica449@aol.com> >Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 00:32:25 EST >To: updates@globalserve.net >Subject: Re: 8/27/96 Re: MJ-12 Document >>From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net> >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >>Subject: Re: 8/27/96 Re: MJ-12 Document >>Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 17:33:43 -0400 >>>Date: Tue, 02 Feb 1999 14:42:01 -0800 >>>From: Ed Stewart <ufoindex@jps.net> >>>To: updates@globalserve.net >>>Subject: 8/27/96 Re: MJ-12 Document ><snip> >Friedman wrote: >>Let us get facts straight: >Ha! Fat chance! >>1. I have never claimed to have had a TOP SECRET CLearance >>although I did have a Q which gave me access to Secret >>Restricted Data. >On page 138 of 'Crash at Corona', Friedman claims: > "Both authors handled materials classified top secret > and higher, Friedman when in the nuclear industry and > Berliner when in the air force." >The logical inference is that Friedman had a TS clearance. >Otherwise, he wouldn't have been authorized to 'handle' "top >secret and higher" materials. Not only does Friedman infer that >he had a TS clearance, he also infers that he had clearance for >Top Secret/code word materials (as in 'higher' than TS). ><snip> The quoted words are indeed in the book. I repeat I have never had or told anybody I had a TS clearance. There was quite an argument with Richard Boylan about this. I have of course handled a great deal of formerly TS materials in my many archival visits. Bob ought to try a visit. >>3. I published in my "Final Report on Operation Majestic 12" 5 >>formerly TS documents which did not have Control numbers, >>whether Ed Stewart likes it or not. >None of those five documents originated from the same place as >the Cutler-Twining memo; that is, none of those five documents >was found among the TS records in Record Group 341 (Air Force >Headquarters). It is not irrelevant. There are many Air Force documents that Bob might think belong in RG 341, but aren't there whether he likes it or not. For example, the Library of Congress Manuscript Division in Washington has the papers of the first three Chiefs of Staff of the USAF namely Carl Spaatz, Hoyt Vandenberg (MJ-12 member), Nathan F. Twining (MJ-12 member.). Much of this material was classified TOP SECRET or Secret. Gradually more and more has been declassified. The amounts are not really trivial. For example, in Twining's case there were about 120 Archive Boxes. One of these ,about Box number 120, had folders labelled TOP SECRET and EYES ONLY. In one of these there were two memos from Robert Cutler, Special Assistant to the President. One is TOP SECRET EYES ONLY dated July 13, l953.and is a "Memorandum for General Twining" The other is TOP SECRET and is "Memorandum for the Secretary of Defense" dated June 25, l953. Distribution "Wilson 2; Nash 2, Lay 1; Koons 1; President's file 1;" The Interesting thing is that neither memo has a control number on it. Furthermore, the Cutler Twining Memo (July 14, l954)is from Robert Cutler to General Twining. It also like the other 2 memos from the same source and in the same file has no control number. The source is Robert Cutler at the White House NOT RG 341.Because some USAF HQ files are in RG 341 does NOT mean all are. >Friedman's argument is irrelevant, and deliberately misleading. >>4. Judging by the Cutler Twining Memo, we are dealing with a >>NSC/MJ-12 Special Studies Group. This is not part of the >>Department of Defense. The NSC serves the President. >It doesn't matter. It's where the record allegedly was "found" >by Bill Moore and/or Jaime Shandera that counts. If one or the >other didn't plant it in the Archives, it would have had a TS >control number assigned to it. This statement is FALSE. There are TS documents relating to General Twining in an official classified document repository (Library of Congress Manuscript Division for one) without TS Control numbers and whose provenance is certain. I published some. Cutler's office was at the White House NOT in the Pentagon. >The number would have been >assigned by the Air Force, not the NSC or White House. Of >course, Friedman contends somebody on the Air Force >declassification team planted the memo in the Archives for >Moore/Shandera to find. Yeah, right. It doesn't seem to matter >to Friedman that the records in question were reviewed for >declassification by Air Force _and_ National Archives personnel >both, and at no time did the memo surface -- and it would have >surfaced because NSC materials require special handling. And, >by Friedman's own admission, Moore and Shandera were the first >researchers to review these records following declassification >review. How odd. >Just more of Friedman's _many_ misrepresentations. One thing is for sure, If one didn't go looking, the memo would not have been fund. But Bob, to the best of my knowledge, has never been to any archive even though, based in Belmont, Pennsylvania, near Philadelphia, he is much closer to Washington, DC, than Bill and Jamie in California or me up here in New Brunswick. Bob, of course, has left out the post cards that led Bill and Jaime to DC and my earlier visit during which I found out that classification review was being done on some entries in Record Group 341. These facts are discussed in my final Report on Op. Majestic 12 and in TOP SECRET/MAJIC. Nothing like selective choice of data. Furthermore I made a substantial, but unsuccesful, effort to determine the identity of the declassification teams which handled box 189 within 3 weeks of the death of the last survining member of MJ-12 (Jerome Hunsaker) and within 2 weeks prior to when Shandera and Moore visited the archives. The declassifiers were able to bring in brief cases and were certainly in the best position of anybody to plant the CT memo. having also had access to whatever box held it in the first place. The telephone and the US mail do not provide the same exposure to archival material and how varied the format, styles, type face etc are in the real world. I recall Phil Klass claiming that the NSC used elite type.. on the basis of 9 samples he had received in the mail. He paid me $1000. because there were at least 10 done in PICA type as he certainly would have noticed if he had visited the Ike Library. I strongly recommend that Bob visit archives. It is an enlightening, sometimes time and money consuming experience. Stan Friedman
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 6 Re: Ufology II: Some Final Answers - On Disc From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net> Date: Sat, 06 Feb 1999 12:27:40 -0800 Fwd Date: Sat, 06 Feb 1999 18:02:15 -0500 Subject: Re: Ufology II: Some Final Answers - On Disc UFO UpDates - Toronto wrote: >Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 19:30:35 -0600 >From: Francis Ridge <slk@EVANSVILLE.NET> >Subject: Press Release >To: CURRENT-ENCOUNTERS@LISTSERV.AOL.COM >January 1999 >PRESS RELEASE >Milestone in UFO studies published on floppy disc <snip> >To obtain a copy, order UFOlogy II: Some Final Answers, from >Digital Books, 12 Bryce Court, Belmont CA 94002, U.S.A. The >price of $l0 includes domestic shipping and handling. Foreign >orders add $1.50. >James M. McCampbell >Director of Research, 1975-93 >Mutual UFO Network, Inc. >Support AND USE the research web sites by sending $1 a month to: >Sites >618 Davis Drive >Mt. Vernon, IN 47620 >Main InterLink Site Directory: >http://www.evansville.net/~slk/InterLink.html Dear sirs and Mmes: IF you can find anything already in print by James M. McCampbell, I suggest you do so NOW. Best wishes -Larry Hatch. = = = = = =
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 6 Re: Open Letter: MJ-12 & Dr. Wood From: Ed Stewart <ufoindex@jps.net> Date: Sat, 06 Feb 1999 10:33:38 -0800 Fwd Date: Sat, 06 Feb 1999 18:05:59 -0500 Subject: Re: Open Letter: MJ-12 & Dr. Wood >From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: Re: Open Letter: MJ-12 & Dr. Wood >Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 22:47:55 -0400 >I obviously totally disagree that Barry Greenwood or Ed Stewart >or anybody else has demolished the older documents. The new ones >are under investigation. I reference the relevant MJ-12 articles between 1987-1995 that were recorded in Just Cause, Caus Bulletin, IUR, MUFON Journal and UFO Magazine. The articles are bibliographed in a prior message to this list and available in the ufomind online index at: http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates/1999/jan/m27-003.shtml >You might note my comments about Barry's first article about the >documents in TSM. Have you actually read it and my Final Report >on Operation Majestic 12? The above is a deceptive and irrelevant ploy by Stanton Friedman. The article he references from JUST CAUSE was published in 1985 based on information given to Lee Graham whose source was none other than Stanton Friedman's MJ-12 co-researcher William Moore. The information posted by Greenwood and sourced from the dream team of Moore-Shandera-Friedman, was basically all that the dream team had "released" until that time. Friedman's "criticism" of the neutral article by Barry Greenwood should by all rights by directed at his co-researcher William Moore who released the information through Lee Graham and in turn gave it to Barry. At the time, Lee Graham was being used as a conduit to the UFO community by the dream team of Moore-Shandera-Friedman and the only available source of information to the "research" of Moore-Shandera-Friedman. What is more deceptive of Stanton Friedman is what he doesn't say in his book and can be verified from the bibliography posted to this list. There is no further mention of JUST CAUSE and the research it published demolishing the MJ-12 papers, 57 articles and references in all in JUST CAUSE and 7 in CAUS Bulletin out of the 152 references from the UFO literature posted. Most of these devastating references were published between 1987-1992 with IUR contributing 17 references, MUFON contributing 24 references and UFO magazine contributing 47 references, many of which constituted research originally published by Barry Greenwood in JUST CAUSE. Yet, Friedman's only reference to that research is the 1985 neutral article whose information came indirectly from his co-researcher William Moore. How deceptive! Stanton Friedman compounds the deception in his book of ignoring the relevant research conducted by UFO researchers within the UFO community by stating on page 85 of TS/M: "This carries the analysis of the MJ-12 documents themselves about as far as it can go. Surprisingly, nothing that we had found or that others had alleged indicated that the documents were anything other than legitimate." This Friedman deception points stronger to his intellectual dishonesty and deception directed at his readers. Not only does he ignore the JUST CAUSE published research between 1987-1992 on the bogus MJ-12 documents and makes no reference to it - including not listing JUST CAUSE in his 10 page bibliography, much of which was irrelevant to the MJ-12 papers, but he compounds his dishonesty when he declares in his book: "Surprisingly, nothing that we had found or that others had alleged indicated that the documents were anything other than legitimate." When in fact some of the JUST CAUSE published articles included letters of "protest" from Stanton Friedman and relevant and significant responses from JUST CAUSE. >Did you note that contrary to Ed >Stewart's claims , the latter included 2 TOP SECRET documents >from Robert Cutler that were in General Twining's files. at the >Library of Congress Manuscript Division. Neither had control >numbers. Same source, same recipient and some similar language >to the Cutler -Twining memo. I suspect Ed will say they are >fakes, too, despite where they originated because they weren't >in the record Group at the Archives where he is sure they should >have been. Let us not do Research by Proclamation The above paragraph continues the trend already shown of Stanton Friedman's irrelevance to the facts and will be addressed by Robert Todd in a separate post. Robert Todd was mentioned in TS/M on pages 94,99, and 106 and is intimately familiar with the bogus MJ-12 papers and the subsequent bogus claims adherred to by Stanton Friedman. Robert Todd has in the past contributed and shared his research findings to Barry Greenwood and others. Ed Stewart ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Ed Stewart ufoindex@jps.net|So Man, who here seems principal alone, There Is Something |Perhaps acts second to some sphere unknown. Going On! ,>'?'<, |Touches some wheel, or verges to some goal, Salvador Freixedo ( O O ) |'Tis but a part we see, and not a whole. ----------------ooOO-(_)-OOoo------- Alexander Pope, Essay on Man -----
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 6 Re: Who Knew? From: Stephen Miles Lewois <Ufoelf@aol.com> Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 15:30:20 EST Fwd Date: Sat, 06 Feb 1999 18:59:36 -0500 Subject: Re: Who Knew? >From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com> >Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 20:03:03 +0000 >Fwd Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 11:09:54 -0500 >Subject: Re: Who Knew? >>From: Greg St. Pierre <StrmNut@aol.com> >>Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 09:00:09 EST >>Fwd Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 09:50:49 -0500 >>Subject: Who Knew? >Previously, Greg offered: >>I thought I'd share a little known fact with you movie buffs out >>there. Before Steven Spielberg began work on E.T., he and a >>small team of artists were working on a project called "Night >>Skies", a movie about decidedly unfriendly aliens visiting >>earth. Effects people had even produced working alien creatures, >>with realistic aspects such as subdermal muscle movements, skin >>texture and facial features. >>Unfortunately, for reasons unknown, the project was suddenly >>abandoned for the cuter E.T., and the rest is history. >>The only place I've ever seen reference to this information was >>in a movie industry magazine called Cineffex. Perhaps some >>person with connections in the movie business (I won't mention >>you, Roger) could do a little digging and come up with some more >>info. Yes, this is a very interesting case study in the power of a director to change his mind. There is an article within a mag called Cinefantastique (double issue Vol 13 No 2 / Vol 13 No 3 which features many interesting behind the scenes pieces on E.T. and other science fiction movies of the day, Nov-Dec '82. Amongst the E.T. focus is an article "How E.T. Found His Smile" by Christopher Meeks. Among the many strange "facts" cited are: -Dark Skies was originally to be a dark sequel to Close Encounters showing not all encounters are so moon-beams and sunshine. -the original idea for this horror sequel was none other than the Kelly/Hopkinsville, Kentucky family's tale of their reported harrasment by glowing gremlin-like creatures! -"Spielberg told Baker a bit about the story, a violent tale akin to Sam Peckinpah's _Straw Dogs_." -creature effects master Rick Baker says "One of the girls in the Kentucky family drew a picture of what the aliens looked like . . . I didn't want to build it, really. It had a triangular head and body, and weird, hard angles." Baker created his own design which he was very proud of and when Spielberg saw it he reportedly gave a glowing review as well as the go ahead. Apparently though, Spielberg had a sudden change of heart while in Tunisia filming _Raiders of the Lost Ark_. The article goes on to quote him from an interview in Film Comment magazine that asked 'why he wanted to do a story on hostile aliens: "I don't know, I might have taken leave of my senses . . . Throughout Raiders I was in between killing Nazis and blowing up flying wings . . I was sitting in Tunisia, scratching my head and saying I've got to get back to the tranquility, or at least the spirituality, of CE3K. . . my reaction was to immediately think of a very touching and tender relationship between an extraterrestrial and an 11 year-old child who takes him in." He told the idea to Melissa Mathison in Tunisia, she wept and became the screenplay writer for the redux. This news, of course, wrecked Baker and Spielberg's business relationship and even Columbia Pictures had doubts about sinking 10 million dollars into a "Disney- type" film. However, Universal optioned the script and made the picture anyway. Baker would later claim similarities in design between his evil aliens and the cute E.T. Also in this issue are: see Roger's notes below -E.T. Phone Lawyer-regarding the allegations of copyright violation. Lisa Litchfield claimed her one-act play 'Lokey from Maldemar' was the basis for E.T. -The Gospel According to St. Steven - by Joe Thompson this is about the same thing posted previously on this list here: http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates/1998/dec/m30-005.shtml SMiles http://www.elfis.net
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 6 Filer's Files #5-1999 From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> Date: Sat, 06 Feb 1999 19:30:39 -0500 Fwd Date: Sat, 06 Feb 1999 19:30:39 -0500 Subject: Filer's Files #5-1999 Filer's Files #5-1999 MUFON Skywatch Investigations George A. Filer: MUFON Eastern Director, February 4, 1999 Majorstar@aol.com (609) 654-0020 PRESIDENT JIMMY CARTER SAW UFOs LEARY--President Carter filed two formal reports when he was governor of Georgia describing his observation of a UFO to organizations that collect and promote UFO sightings as unexplained phenomena. Thirty years ago, Jimmy Carter risked being labeled a "crackpot" when he said he saw a UFO. Now, other prominent Americans join him. It was just another fun night at the Lion's Club for Jimmy Carter =97 when suddenly from the sky a UFO "as bright as the moon" flashed before his eyes. While leaving a Lion's Club, then-Georgia Governor Jimmy Carter noticed an object in the sky. A red and green glowing orb radiated as it hurtled across the southwestern Georgia skies that January 1969 evening. Ten minutes later, it vanished. That was Jimmy Carter's story =97 and he's sticking to it. Carter became the first major politician to risk achieving "crackpot" status by claiming he had had a close encounter. "I don't laugh at people any more when they say they've seen UFOs," Carter said at a Southern Governors Conference a few years later. "I've seen one myself." Two weeks ago, Silicon Valley legend Joe Firmage quit his job as the CEO of USWeb/CKS, a $2 billion company that employs nearly 2,000 people. The reason: He's had contact with extraterrestrials and wants to expose the government conspiracy to conceal a 1947 space crash in Roswell, NM Astronauts Edgar Mitchell and Gordon Cooper say that new investigations are warranted. UFOs: 50 Years of Denial?, a documentary set to air March 3 on The Learning Channel. "The evidence points to the fact that Roswell was a real incident and that indeed an alien craft did crash and that material was recovered from that crash site," says Mitchell, who became the sixth man on the moon in the Apollo 14 mission. He says he's met with high-ranking military officers who admitted involvement with alien technology and hardware. Astronaut Cooper told a UN committee recently, "Every day in the USA, our radar instruments capture objects of form and composition unknown to us." In the documentary, Cooper speculates that public skepticism toward UFOs will shift dramatically. Pictures of flying saucers strike a dramatic image. Nick Pope notes a phenomenon that many of the people he's interviewed have developed spontaneous skills in music, painting, and poetry "It can be a life-transforming event. Whatever happened to these people," he says, "It somehow comes out." It's hard to say how Carter was affected by his close encounter. In recent years, Carter has become a prolific writer and peace activist. But the former president has never really spoken of the impact of those mysterious red and green lights all those years ago. Yet while he was on the campaign trail, he tried to use it to his advantage. "A light appeared and disappeared in the sky," he told a Washington Post reporter in 1975. "It goes brighter and brighter =85 I have no idea what it was =85 I think it was a light beckoning me to run in the California primary. The rest is history. Thanks to Buck Wolf ABCNEWS.com 1/22/99. MARYLAND GERMANTOWN -- QuBr@aol.com reports that on January 29, 1999, he had very clear sighting of a circular/saucer -- shaped craft while driving northbound on I-270 between Germantown and Frederick. There were lights both on the bottom and around the circumference, some of which were pulsing. I noticed about 4 planes that were flying in a large circle around the craft. After about 5 minutes, the craft moved upward and toward the South, stopped again, then after a few more minutes, pulsed brightly several times (still stationary) and disappeared. By this time I had pulled over to watch. After it disappeared, the other planes seemed to change flights paths, sort-of crisscrossing like they were looking for something. The sky was almost completely clear, and with the near-full moon, the shape of the craft was EASILY seen, including the parts that weren't lit. On my return southbound, I noticed several contrails coming from the West (the direction I had seen the object) heading east, with the endpoints of the contrails getting closer together (ie.same destination). Thanks to CAUS and QuBr@aol.com. GEORGIA CASE SOLVED Aviation expert Bill Rose proposed that a low level flight of a B1-B Lancer bomber was responsible for the extreme noise and fire heard and seen in Georgia on December 10, 1998. MUFON State Section Director John C. Thompson responds that a low-flying unknown craft generated considerable confusion while flying over Heard, Troup, Meriwether and other Georgia counties at 10:20 to 10:30 PM. I'm a UFO investigator who investigated the sighting, and like to pin UFOs down to explainable solutions. I'm inclined to agree that what was seen was a B1-B Lancer bomber. I contacted the FAA and the 116th Bomb Wing of the Georgia Air National Guard that operates the B1-B out of Robbins AFB. I located a witness who was directly under the path of the unknown object in north Troup County. This ex-Air Wing Marine says it was definitely flying under 1000 feet and when directly overhead was seen only as a fireball of orange-yellow color making a huge roaring noise like thunder. On it moving off to the ESE, he said it appeared to have a dark gray bottom, a long delta shaped craft with a rectangular shaped boxed-off end, with four fires coming out of the "box." Another witness said its end was boxed-shaped. He said he saw no wings nor aircraft lights, and that it looked much like drawings of the Aurora craft that is alleged to be flying. It was considerably bigger than an F-16. The racket it made he said in both intensity and duration was like no other aircraft he has ever heard. I also talked to a Meriwether Sheriffs Dept. dispatcher in Greenville, who saw it. She said that it had a blinking red light. Just received an e-mail from John Birdsong (civilian civil service) in the Warner Robins Air Logistics Center Office of Public Affairs. Who stated in part: Since the 116th arrived at Robins the number of complaints have risen significantly mainly because people locally and throughout the Eastern US are not familiar with the B-1 bomber. I looked over the messages to MSgt. Saunders and I feel confident in saying what was seen by residents in West Central GA and Southeast GA was a B-1B Lancer bomber on a low level training exercise. There is a low level training route in each of the areas mentioned and the aircraft fly at approximately 1000 AGL. At night, it probably seems 100 ft. especially with the noise created by a B-1. The B-1 is the loudest aircraft in the Air Force inventory. The times given in the message also are times a B-1 would possibly be on a low level night mission out of Robins. We are very proud to have the 116th at Robins who fly to protect our great nation with a dedicated force of men and women. If we can be of further assistance, please contact me via e-mail or by phone. My number is (912) 926-2137. Sincerely, John Birdsong. Editors Note: Thanks to John Thompson and Bill Rose who did a great job in solving this case. John never thought it was a UFO due to the loud noise of the engines. It also shows our witnesses reports were excellent. ILLINOIS CAUS thanks Allan Stagg (Allan.Stagg@ABC.com) for this report I was driving home from my overnight job in Chicago in the predawn hours of Thursday, December 17th, 1998. I was northbound on the Edens (I-94) about a mile south of the spur to the Tri-State (I-294). At 5:46 AM CST I observed a light that appeared about the intensity of the landing lights on commercial jetliners I often see circling O'Hare in the evenings as I head into town. It seemed no further than a half-mile up and a half-mile away out my windshield heading southeast. What caught my attention was a second light, about half the intensity of the first, which seemed to come up in a subtle curve from horizon line in the Northeast and headed downward toward the Southwest clearly impacting the first light. The impact caused an initial burst of light followed by a lengthy stream of white sparks trailing the first light as it continued in a southeasterly direction. The second light appeared to fall practically straight down following the collision. I was shocked at what I saw and began to brake thinking I had witnessed a midair crash between a smaller and larger aircraft. I even looked around at other cars, early risers heading to work, for a reaction of some sort but traffic continued on. There were no reports on radio or television of a crash. The event was eerily reminiscent of night footage of Patriot missiles striking Scuds during the Gulf War. Thanks to Ken Young http://home.fuse.net/ufo/ MARS GLOBAL SURVEYOR BEGINS AEROBRAKING MANEUVERS PASADENA =97 (AP) The Sacramento Bee January 30, 1999, reports that the Mars Global Surveyor fired its rocket engine in the first of a series of critical steps to end the aerobraking process that sends the spacecraft through the fringes of the atmosphere to tighten its orbit around the red planet. The spacecraft was launched Nov. 7, 1996, on a $250 million mission. It reached Mars in September 1997, going into an enormous elliptical orbit that swept very close to the planet at one end and thousands of miles out on the other end. Aerobraking was originally supposed to be done in time to begin mapping in March 1998. Mapping is now expected to begin at the end of February, Hardin said. The spacecraft's camera has already returned numerous detailed photographs of features on Mars, but even better ones are expected. Thanks to John Antczak and Gerry @ Far Shores NEW RUSSIAN STEALTH FIGHTER USES PLASMA The Keldysh Research Center has developed new technology allowing dramatic decrease in aircraft's' radar observability. Russian approach to low observability (LO) technology is completely different from US Stealth and offers complete surreptitious movement of the protected object at a significantly lower price. An exclusive interview about these technologies was conducted by Nicolai Novichkov, ITAR-TASS with director of the Center, Anatoliy Korteev. As academic explained, American approach to LO (Stealth technology) applied on B-2, F-117A, and fifth generation fighter F-22 "Raptor" is based on designing the airframes and radiation absorbing materials to minimize their radar cross section. The main drawbacks of the Stealth technology are its negative effects on the flight and agility of the stealth aircraft. Russian scientists approach the issue from the other direction. They proposed to create a plasma formation around protected object, which prevents radars from seeing it. Thus, the aerodynamical characteristics of the plane itself does not suffer. An artificially created plasma cloud surrounds the plane and guarantees more than hundred times decrease in its observability. The cloud interacts with electromagnetic waves radiated by enemy radar. First, an absorption of electromagnetic energy occurs in the cloud, since during plasma penetration it interacts with plasma charged particles, pass onto them a portion of its energy, and fades. Second, due to specific physical processes, electromagnetic wave tends to pass around plasma cloud. Both of these phenomena's results in a dramatic decrease of the reflected signal. Static and flight experiments proved the effectiveness of this technology. The first generation devices, produce a plasma field surrounding an aircraft and decrease the reflected signal were created in the Center. Later, a method of creating second generation advanced systems (capable of not only decreasing reflected signal and changing its wavelength, but also producing some false signals) was discovered. Such systems significantly complicate determination of actual aircraft's speed, its location and leads to development of completely new approaches to LO provision, unachievable to conventional Stealth technology. Furthermore, the weight of the systems developed in Russia do not exceed 100 kg, and power consumption ranges from kilowatts to tens of kilowatts. Advances in development of the third generation are on the new MIG 29. Thanks to: Anatoliy Korteev. 26/01/99 (c) ITAR-TASS, Translation by Philip Kaploun. EXCELLENT UFO VIDEOS ON INTERNET Dave Ledger has some of the best UFO video footage on the Internet. UFO Scotland at http://wkweb5.cableinet.co.uk/dledger/video.htm PRESIDENT CLINTON ADMITS AREA 51 EXISTS On January 29, 1999, Clinton sent a letter to Congress. Consistent with section 6001(a) of the Resource Conservation and Recovery Act (RCRA) (the "Act"), as amended, 42 U.S.C. 6961(a), notification is hereby given that on September 25, 1998, I issued Presidential Determination No. 98-36 (copy attached) and thereby exercised the authority to grant certain exemptions under section 6001(a) of the Act. Presidential Determination No. 98-36 exempted the United States Air Force's operating location near Groom Lake, Nevada, from any Federal, State, interstate, or local hazardous or solid waste laws that might require the disclosure of classified information concerning that operating location to unauthorized persons. Information concerning activities at the operating location near Groom Lake has been properly determined to be classified, and its disclosure would be harmful to national security. Continued protection of this information is, therefore, in the paramount interest of the United States. The determination was not intended to imply that in the absence of a Presidential exemption, RCRA or any other provision of law permits or requires the disclosure of classified information to unauthorized persons. The determination also was not intended to limit the applicability or enforcement of any requirement of law applicable to the Air Force's operating location near Groom Lake except those provisions, if any, that would require the disclosure of classified information. Sincerely, WILLIAM J. CLINTON Thanks to Ufo contact UNITED KINGDOM FLYING TRIANGLES Tim Mathews reports: As you know I've been investigating Flying Triangle Sightings in the UK for four years now and have interviewed over 130 people who claim to have seen these aircraft. None of them have claimed that what they have seen was 'football field sized' although several have claimed sizes similar to the Vulcan bomber of old. BROADGATE--On December 29, 1998, between 2200 to 2230 PM; Witness, a local DJ Peter H, saw a triangle flying at low speed, app 30 knots, flying from left to right next to the River Ribble. The triangle was somewhat larger than the jet fighters seen so often in the area and was notable for a pattern of red lights around its' entire perimeter. As it passed by, entirely silently at a distance of around 1/4 mile, Peter noticed a bright light (but not a beam as such) evident on the right side approximately half way down the leading edge. This was almost an equilateral triangle -- the triangle had a relatively broad back and probably not a 75 degree sweep. There was no evidence of high performance as such beyond the silent performance -- something that is always difficult to gauge. The craft adhered to the course of the River Ribble is instructive given similar events noted in my previous research papers and Jenny Randles 'Northern UFO News' and her book that draws on some of my research "Something In The Air." Thanks to Tim Mathews. UNITED KINGDOM "STAR WARS" BASE MENWITH HILL BASE -- The US communications base at RAF Menwith Hill is to play a front line role in a "Star Wars" system to warn the Americans of ballistic missile launches anywhere on earth. New radomes at the base on the outskirts on Harrogate will be directly linked to American infrared eyes in space and will be operational by the millennium. The change of direction at the controversial listening center has been confirmed by the Ministry of Defense. Previously the only comment about the erection of the two new radomes -- the distinctive golfballs which can be seen at the base -- has been local concern about the extension of the area of the base. Armed Forces Minister Mr. Doug Henderson said: "Construction of the two radomes at RAF Menwith Hill is due to begin in November 1999 and is scheduled for completion in February 2000. The radomes will support the new US Space Based Infrared System, providing early warning of ballistic missile launches." American personnel now number 1,370 at the base. Snip.. Graham Birdsall, editor of Quest Communications, an organization which monitors earthly aerial movements and reports of UFOs, said: "I am not that concerned about the function of monitoring what happens on the planet. What I find fascinating is the emphasis that this program gives to monitoring deep space. "That will be its capacity and it is slightly ironic bearing in mind years of denial about reports of unidentified craft." Thanks to the UK UFO Network Issue 99, 1/29/99, ufo@holodeck.demon.co.uk NEW IMAGE OF SYMBOLS ON 1947 ROSWELL BALLOON PHOTOS Neil Morris from the University of Manchester, Dept. of Physics, reports he has placed further images on my RPIT site. This image is from the "balloon material" section of the Ramey Alone photograph. The main image is just a simple enlarged section and has had NO enhancement. The inset has had some level stretching only, to promote the apparent "symbol" displayed. The faint "3" symbol marked in the inset with a bar-* can be found repeated in various places within the FW images and interestingly also within the Irving Newton image. I encourage the reader to see the new images at: http://adm2.ph.man.ac.uk/ftw-pics/new-1/index.htm Or the image can be directly had from http://adm2.ph.man.ac.uk/ftw-pics/new-1/rmblncrp.gif. Thanks to Neil Morris. Editor's Note: The apparent markings on the alleged balloon material seems very odd. "By Jove, I think you've got it!" Crass commercials: GET THE BEST REALTORS, HELP UFO RESEARCH As a special aid to our readers, we can help you obtain the best real estate experts in your area at no cost to you. Make sure you have a top notch agent, to buy or sell your home often your biggest investment. We provide free relocation information and consulting services from the largest and most respected firms. If you are planning to sell or buy a home and would like a top flight real estate agent give me a call at 609 654-0020 or e-mail me at Majorstar@aol.com. Please send your name, phone number, address, price range and location. MUFON JOURNAL For more detailed investigative reports subscribe by writing to 103 Oldtowne Road, Sequin, TX 78155-4099 or E-mail Mufon@aol.com. Filer's Files Copyright 1998 by George A. Filer, all rights reserved. Readers may post items from the Files on their Websites provided that they credit the newsletter and its editor by name and list the date of issue that the item appeared. Send your letters to me at Majorstar@aol.com. If you wish to keep your name confidential please so state.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 6 Re: The Order Of the Solar Temple From: Stephen Miles Lewis <Ufoelf@aol.com> Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 18:39:57 EST Fwd Date: Sat, 06 Feb 1999 19:39:51 -0500 Subject: Re: The Order Of the Solar Temple >From: Bruno Mancusi <Bruno.Mancusi@com.mcnet.ch> >Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 19:56:25 +0100 >Fwd Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 19:04:36 -0500 >Subject: Re: The Order Of the Solar Temple >>From: Tim D. Brigham <devilsad@ksinc.net> >>To: <updates@globalserve.net> >>Subject: The Order Of the Solar Temple >>Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 17:46:51 -0600 >>The question remains: how/from who did they get equipment >>sophisticated enuff to pull this off? Does anyone on the List >>have any insight into what specific sort of equipment may have >>been used, how it would be obtained, what it would cost, etc? >I have forwarded your message to Jean-Fran=E7ois Mayer, the Swiss >sects expert who worked with the police for the investigation on >this case. He responded that absolutely no such devices where >found. He think that simple tricks were used. >Regards >Bruno The first and only reference I heard of the alleged hi-tech delusion element within the Solar Temple Suicides was in Dr. Jacque Vallee's speech at John White's UFO Experience conference some years back. He said that there were reports this group had used such devices but that this news had not been circulated widely in America. I can dig up the exact quote if need be. Or perhaps some one could contact Vallee for his source. SMiles http://www.elfis.net
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 7 Nick Pope exposed in The Sunday Times From: Tim Matthews <matthews@zetnet.co.uk> Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 08:51:14 -0000 Fwd Date: Sun, 07 Feb 1999 06:21:14 -0500 Subject: Nick Pope exposed in The Sunday Times Dear All, We've been saying it for months and he wouldn't come clean but now, in an article featured on page 3 (no less) of today's "Sunday Times" - Britain's most respected newspaper - written by Mark Macaskill, Nick Pope is well and truly exposed. Under the heading "UFO Hunter at MOD 'kidnapped by aliens'" the article goes into detail about his Florida tollbooth abduction and quotes Jenny Randles as saying that "Clearly, the truth really is out there!". Pope won't be drawn and claims that he won't say anything because his partner at the time is a former girlfriend. The article states; "His latest revelation will come as a further surprise for the ministry, where officials were amazed when he announced that his time collating their "X Files" had convinced him that Earth was being visited by aliens." Air Staff 2a material is hardly the "X Files" but no matter.......... To print an article on p.3 of the "Sunday Times" - above a story on Oprah Winfrey - is quite remarkable and it looks like the cat is out of the bag. This week Pope saw fit to complain about UFO groups asking for research fees when making TV documentaries - this from a man who has made tens of thousands through his very limited role at Air Staff 2a within the MOD from 1991-1994. The 'Sunday Times' article also confirms that Pope is now a Higher Executive Officer - still a junior rank and with no access to any 'Most Secret' information. It looks like people are getting wise to his game; this week respected UK researcher Nick Redfern took Pope up on certain details of his knowledge about other departments who become involved in official research into "UFOs". Our Jenny says; "What surprised me more though, is why he has never admitted to it before and why he chose to describe the incident as happening to somebody else." Comments? Tim Matthews - Lancashire UFO Society. [see: http://www.sunday-times.co.uk/news/pages/Sunday-Times/frontpage.html?1146106
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 7 Budd Hopkins on Art Bells' Dreamland Tonight From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 02:54:50 -0500 Fwd Date: Sun, 07 Feb 1999 06:25:05 -0500 Subject: Budd Hopkins on Art Bells' Dreamland Tonight Hi All, Just a note to let you know that Budd will be a guest on Art Bells "Dreamland" program this evening. Check the Art Bell website for local times and listings. http://www.artbell.com I (think) Linda Moulton-Howe is on the first hour and then Budd for the remaining two hours. *And don't forget to check out EBK's 'Strange Days... Indeed' Peace, John Velez ________________________________________________ jvif@spacelab.net INTRUDERS FOUNDATION/ABDUCTION INFORMATION CENTER http://www.if-aic.com "Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind." ________________________________________________
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 7 Sighting - St Kilda Beach, Melbourne From: Larry Clark <lclark@ibm.net> Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 19:44:14 -0000 Fwd Date: Sun, 07 Feb 1999 06:33:11 -0500 Subject: Sighting - St Kilda Beach, Melbourne : : From: Julia <leia62@hotmail.com> To: lclark@ibm.net <lclark@ibm.net> Date: Thursday, January 14, 1999 9:11 AM Subject: SIGHTINGS POST FROM www.nymufon.org NAME: Julia PHONE: 000000000 ADDRESS: 0000000 CITY: Melbourne Australia STATE: VIC ZIP: 3040 EMAIL: leia62@hotmail.com NUMBER_OF_WITNESSES: 2 LOCATION: St Kilda Beach Melbourne DATE_OF_SIGHTING: 2/12/97 TIME_OF_SIGHTING: 5:15 PM DESCRIPTION_SUBMITTED: UFO hovering from the horizon in broad daylight. Watched it with my sister travel very slowly towards the shores in a North West direction. It appeared to be travelling towards the city. Was a very bright white glowing colour (no airplane have their lights on at that time of the day) It suddenly came to a halt when it reached the land and vanished. It lasted for about 5 minutes and the object was small and round. It was very bright but it seemed to form a sophisticated shape. There were no other witnesses other than my sister. The weather was hot and clear.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 7 Conference 27 Feb in the UK From: Sean Jones <tedric@tedric.demon.co.uk> Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 00:19:22 +0000 Fwd Date: Sun, 07 Feb 1999 06:36:36 -0500 Subject: Conference 27 Feb in the UK Lancashire UFO Society And The Independent UFO Network Present Countdown To The Millennium! Ufology In The Twenty First Century - A Conference To Launch The Independent UFO Network! Featuring JENNY RANDLES - Britain's best-known researcher and author on UFOs and the paranormal presents an intriguing lecture: "The Peter Day 'UFO film' - an in-depth investigation." DR. DAVID CLARKE - award-winning journalist, researcher and co-author of the acclaimed "Phantoms of the Sky". His stunning new audio-visual presentation focuses upon the 1997 'Sheffield Crash Retrieval Incident'. JERRY ANDERSON - Popular UFO researcher from Kent. Jerry will present new evidence for UFO reality by introducing quite remarkable new cases from the South East AND footage of a large UFO hovering over Kent. An expert said of the film; "this is the best UFO footage I've ever seen". JAMES DISS - UFO Outsider, skeptic and general bad egg. James' lecture; "How to fake UFO photographs and footage!".. ANDY ROBERTS - "The Armchair Ufologist". Noted for his controversial column in Fortean Times magazine Andy is the editor of the re-born IUN journal UFO Brigantia. His lecture focuses upon the Berwyn Mountains UFO case. It will be followed by a discussion of the issues surrounding the case featuring both Andy and Jenny Randles. Andy will also be talking about new developments with the Independent UFO Network. The IUN is to play an important part in this ground- breaking event and will undoubtedly become THE force in British Ufology as we countdown to the Millennium! Each lecture is to be supported by big screen overhead, video and slide projection. A wide range of snacks and refreshments will be available at low prices in the purpose built hall hired for the occasion. Central location, plenty of parking nearby, just a short walk from the station. This is a joint LUFOS/IUN event to be held on Saturday 27th February 1999 starting at 11am, finishing around 8pm. Tickets for this event cost just =A37 (=A35 members) and are available NOW from; (Cheques/postal orders to 'Lancashire UFO Society' please) Lancashire UFO Society, P.O.Box 15, Southport PR8 1GR. Venue; Holy Trinity Hall, Hoghton Street, Southport. Tel; (01995) 600186 (Brenda) and (01704) 501765 (Lynda). --
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 7 Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com> Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 20:44:18 EST Fwd Date: Sun, 07 Feb 1999 06:41:12 -0500 Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net> >Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >Date: Sat, 06 Feb 99 12:17:04 PST >>From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com> >>Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 09:44:20 EST >>To: updates@globalserve.net >>Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >>>Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >>>From: Mark Cashman <mcashman@ix.netcom.com> >>>Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 13:54:40 -0500 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >>>>From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com> >>>>Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 09:48:26 EST >>>>To: updates@globalserve.net >>>>Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >>>Also, why is there no correspondence in plot or dialog, or any >>>other aspects except appearance? >>>It seems to me that such claims are usually unverifiable. Those >>>who claim that UFO or abduction events are based on the media >>>rarely try to prove that the media presentation was available to >>>the reporter. And if it is proven that it was not, then the >>>assertion is made that the witness just doesn't remember. It's >>>hardly scientific. And few recognize that even if the portrayal >>>was available to the witness, that this still does not represent >>>a causal chain. After all, why this witness and not everyone who >>>saw the portrayal? >>Given the timing, I did try to find out when Mars Needs Women >>was circulated in the Midwest by reading the newspaper ads in >>1966. Given the promotion of films in that era, that is, large >>newspaper ads when the films changed (usually in midweek), it is >>possible that Schirmer didn't see the movie, but saw the ads. >>And how do you prove that a particular presentation wasn't >>available to a specific witness? In this case, it is possible >>that Schirmer didn't see the movie and could tell us that he >>didn't see it. But, does that mean he didn't see the ads for it >>in the newspaper? That he didn't walk by the theater and see the >>posters out front displaying the Martians and their headgear? >>Could it be that he noticed something from the pop culture that, >>for some reason, stuck in his mind and then, under the influence >>of hypnosis, recalled that detail? >In other words, Kevin, your hypothesis is unfalsifiable. As you >express it, there is no way to prove that Herb Schirmer was not >exposed to these images and was, moreover, not influenced by >them. Even if he didn't see the movie, he _must_ have been >influenced them. Moreover, even if nothing else in his testimony >sounds like anything in this silly SF movie, the differences >don't matter, according to you, only the similarities. Oh, for crying out loud, of course is it unfalsifiable which is what I was attempting to show. Even if Schirmer could prove he had not gone to the movie, he could easily have seen one of the other representations. My point was that he didn't have to see the movie to have been exposed to elements of it. That's all. Not that he was, not that he did. Only that it was possible. My point is that as one well known abduction researcher had claimed that there were no traditional sci-fi gods or demons that could have supplied the inspiration for an abduction scenario. Given pop culture, that cannot be said because the influences are all around us. That doesn't mean that Schirmer got the inspiration for his aliens from the movie, only that we have an amazing coincidence. >Incidentally, Schirmer's entities are not unique to Schirmer's >account. Oh excuse me -- I forgot. Everybody else who speaks >of such beings is under the influence of Schirmer's story. Once again, the point is that pop culture COULD influence an abductee's account, not that it DID. Schirmer could have drawn inspiration from this really crappie science fiction movie, not that he did. >No wonder we're getting nowhere. Yes, because we keep arguing over the trivia. Jerry, you seem to believe that there are NO pop culture influences in the abduction phenomena. I'm only saying there MIGHT be and we had better look at it closely rather than ignoring it. KRandle
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 7 Robert Todd On MJ-12 [was: Open Letter: MJ-12 & From: Robert Todd <Bohica449@aol.com> Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 21:06:32 EST Fwd Date: Sun, 07 Feb 1999 07:19:16 -0500 Subject: Robert Todd On MJ-12 [was: Open Letter: MJ-12 & >From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: Re: Open Letter: MJ-12 & Dr. Wood >Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 22:47:55 -0400 >>Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 07:22:17 -0800 (PST) >>From: Rebecca Keith <xiannekei@yahoo.com> >>Subject: Re: Open Letter: MJ-12 & Dr. Wood >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >>>From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net> >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >>>Subject: Re: Open Letter: MJ-12 & Dr. Wood >>>Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 08:45:27 -0400 <snip> >>Frankly, I think Barry Greenwood pretty well demolished the new >>MJ-12 papers, but I'm sure excuses will be made for his >>arguments as well. >>-Rebecca <snip> Friedman responded: >I obviously totally disagree that Barry Greenwood or Ed Stewart >or anybody else has demolished the older documents. The new ones >are under investigation. I would expect nothing less from somebody who has made a new career out of hawking the MJ-12 hoax. >You might note my comments about Barry's first article about the >documents in TSM. Have you actually read it and my Final Report >on Operation Majestic 12? Did you note that contrary to Ed >Stewart's claims , the latter included 2 TOP SECRET documents >from Robert Cutler that were in General Twining's files. at the >Library of Congress Manuscript Division. Neither had control >numbers. Same source, same recipient and some similar language >to the Cutler -Twining memo. Once again, Friedman treats us to his grand irrelevancy, as though the "2 TOP SECRET documents from Robert Cutler that were in General Twining's files" at the Library of Congress somehow validate the fake Cutler-Twining (CT) memo 'found' at the National Archives in Record Group 341 (Air Force Headquarters) by two other members of the 'research team' of Moore, Shandera, and Friedman. Implicit in Friedman's remarks is the suggestion that, because the two documents from Twining's files had no Top Secret (TS) control numbers, we shouldn't expect to see a TS control number on the CT memo 'found' by Moore and Shandera at the National Archives. If indeed this is what he is suggesting, then he has fallen vicitim to the same 'faulty reasoning' of which he routinely accuses so-called "debunkers". The fact that the documents located in Twining's files had no TS control numbers is irrelevant. What _is_ relevant is that, if the CT memo 'found' by Moore and Shandera had not been planted in the Archives, it would have been assigned a TS control number. It _is_ that simple. The fact that it does not bear such a control number is one of several pieces of evidence showing that the document did not belong where it supposedly was "found", and in fact had to have been planted there. Even Friedman acknowledges that the CT memo supposedly "found" by Moore and/or Shandera was planted in the Archives. But he contends it was planted in the Archives by members of the Air Force declassification team, so that it could be found by Moore and/or Shandera. Of course, Friedman neglects to say that at the top of the list of suspects who could have created the MJ-12 documents are the 'research team' of Moore, Shandera, and Friedman. So far as anybody can determine, Moore, Shandera, and Friedman are the _only_ people on the face of the planet with the means, motive, and opportunity to create these documents. Casting further suspicion on the team is the fact that two members of that team 'found' the CT memo at the National Archives immediately after the records among which the document was 'found' had undergone declassification review by Air Force _and_ National Archives personnel - reviews which failed to turn up the CT memo, which would have required special handling, as do all NSC materials. Again, even Friedman admits that Moore and Shandera were the first researchers to gain access to the files in question following the declassification review. Friedman contends that it is more reasonable to believe members of the Air Force declassification team planted the memo in the Archives, for Moore and Shandera to "find", than it is to believe either Moore or Shandera planted the memo in the Archives and then feigned 'discovery' of the memo. In support of his contention, Friedman offers little more than references to statements allegedly made to members of his 'research team' by alleged "inside sources". Included among these alleged statements are cryptic comments supposedly written on postcards sent to team members by alleged "inside sources", cryptic comments Friedman alleges were designed to guide team members to the National Archives to find documents planted in the Archives by the same or other "inside sources". Otherwise, there isn't a shred of evidence to support Friedman's contention that members of the Air Force declassification team had anything to do with planting the CT memo in the Archives. In his above response to Rebecca Keith, Friedman observes that at least one of the two documents found among Twining's files contains language similar to that found in the CT memo 'found' by Moore/Shandera. Apparently he sees this as further confirmation of the authenticity of the CT memo. What he doesn't say is that the 'research team' of Moore, Shandera, and Friedman, had copies of those two documents since 1981 or '82, _years_ before the CT memo ever surfaced. He sees the two documents as further confirmation of the authenticity of the CT memo. I see the two documents as the raw material used by one or more members of the 'research team' to manufacture the fake CT memo, which was later planted in the Archives by one or more team members, at which point they merely feigned 'discovery'. Like it or not, the 'research team' of Moore, Shandera, and Friedman _are_ suspects in the manufacture of the MJ-12 documents, and planting at least one of those documents among genuine files at the National Archives. So far as anybody can determine, the only people on the face of the planet who had done the archival research necessary to make sure the names, dates, and places that appear in the fake MJ-12 documents would 'check out' are the team of Moore, Shandera, and Friedman. From the very beginning of the sordid MJ-12 affair, the 'research team' of Moore, Shandera, and Friedman controlled the UFO field's access to information pertaining to the supposed MJ-12 organization, either through statements allegedly made to team members by alleged 'inside sources', or through the documents which, until relatively recently, somehow managed to surface only through one or more members of the 'research team'. Until Don Berliner received the spurious MJ-12 manual, SOM 1-01, on a roll of undeveloped film, the only sources for copies of the MJ-12 documents have been the team of Moore, Shandera, and Friedman. The Eisenhower Briefing Document (EBD) surfaced when it arrived on Shandera's doorstep on a roll of undeveloped film. The so-called Carter briefing surfaced when Bill Moore supposedly was led to a motel in upstate New York and then was given only a matter of minutes to photograph the document. The various other MJ-12 "documents" also surfaced through the 'research team' of Moore, Shandera, and Friedman, and allegedly were furnished to the team by "inside sources" in one way or another. In short, until recently, all MJ-12 roads led right back to the 'research team' of Moore, Shandera, and Friedman. >Let us not do Research by Proclamation >Stan Friedman I'm more than a little curious to know how Friedman feels about doing research by manufacturing fake government documents, planting said documents in the National Archives, and making material misrepresentations regarding 'research' into the fake documents? Considering that the 'research team' of Moore, Shandera, and Friedman, are suspects in the manufacture of the MJ-12 documents, I have to question the wisdom of awarding a $16,000 grant to Friedman to 'research' the MJ-12 documents, and I have to question exactly how much 'research' that money really bought. In the case of the Eisenhower Briefing Document, by his own account, Friedman was pulling documents out of his own files that seemed to support the EBD, even _before_ he saw the EBD! Amazing! What a magnificent researcher he is!. Unfortunately, it is all too easy to create fake documents, especially when the perpetrators have the raw materials in their own filing cabinets, gathered from years of researching the Roswell incident, as in the case of Moore, Shandera, and Friedman.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 7 On Mundell's Video + Link To Windows AVI File From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@get2net.dk>k Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 03:10:03 +0100 (MET) Fwd Date: Sun, 07 Feb 1999 07:32:15 -0500 Subject: On Mundell's Video + Link To Windows AVI File Source: http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~kenm/main.htm A link to the Windows AVI file can be found on the page. Stig *** Info on Sighting ** The video was taken on the 20th January 1999 approx. 4.50 pm GMT over my house at Inver, Larne town, Co.Antrim, N.Ireland, UK. I noticed the tri-UFO (triangular UFO) coming from the East just about 1000ft high in the sky, travelling slowly (maybe 30-40mph max). There was no sound coming from the craft. The camcorder 8mm XR (extra resolution) tape is fantastic quality of the encounter which lasts a couple of minutes. When the UFO was directly over my house it changed direction slightly to a more Northerly one. Not noticeable in the mpeg is that the tri-UFO spins round ('skids' across the sky) which is an impossible task for any known aircraft. Some people claim it could have been an F-22 aircraft but the facts are above. A couple of e-mails of other witnesses to this craft have came in to me from around the globe. Just before this encounter I was taping on my camera an unusual craft hovering over Larne Lough with a beacon aimed directly at my camera (local UFO enthusiasts claim it was some sort of anti-gravity craft but others say it was just a helicopter with strobe lights on it). In October 1998 I witnessed an egg-timer 'X' shaped object over The Glynn (near Larne) and so decided to buy a camcorder. It certainly paid off! P.S. the stills above are not very good quality. Most people should download the mpeg version unless you have ATI VCR2 compatibility. Anyone in the UK wanting a VHS copy of the 4 minutes of video including the first craft should contact me. Kenneth Mundell kenm@globalnet.co.uk
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 7 Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net> Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 21:06:17 -0500 Fwd Date: Sun, 07 Feb 1999 07:49:40 -0500 Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com> >Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 14:16:15 EST >To: updates@globalserve.net >Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >However, before this goes much further, we should all retreat to >John Fuller's Interrupted Journey in which Betty, while >recounting Barney's belief that he had seen a flying saucer >through the binoculars said, "And I laughed and asked him if he >had watched Twilight Zone recently on TV..." (page 144 hardback) Good catch, Kevin! In all the discussions of this I've read, nobody but you seems to have noticed that. Greg Sandow
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 7 Re: Premature Birth & Abduction? From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net> Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 21:02:38 -0500 Fwd Date: Sun, 07 Feb 1999 07:54:29 -0500 Subject: Re: Premature Birth & Abduction? >From: Leanne Martin <leanne_martin@hotmail.com> >To: updates@globalserve.net >Subject: Re: Premature Birth & Abduction? >Date: Sat, 06 Feb 1999 08:34:51 PST >Is the above cited case the one supposedly witnessed near a >bridge in New York? Yep -- the Brooklyn Bridge, which (odd unrelated fact) is the only one of New York City's nine major bridges any self-respecting suicide would even think of jumping from. As I learned from truck drivers at the New York Post, whose delivery dock is nearby, people jump off the Brooklyn Bridge even in the middle of the night. I don't remember ever hearing of anyone jumping from the other eight. (Not even the Verezanno Bridge, from which somebody jumped in 'Saturday Night Fever'. Hmmm...here's a case where the media has no influence! I knew there was some reason I was talking about bridge suicides....) Greg Sandow
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 7 Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net> Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 22:02:15 -0500 Fwd Date: Sun, 07 Feb 1999 09:01:48 -0500 Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com> >Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 09:44:20 EST >To: updates@globalserve.net >Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >Given the timing, I did try to find out when Mars Needs Women >was circulated in the Midwest by reading the newspaper ads in >1966. Given the promotion of films in that era, that is, large >newspaper ads when the films changed (usually in midweek), it is >possible that Schirmer didn't see the movie, but saw the ads. >And how do you prove that a particular presentation wasn't >available to a specific witness? In this case, it is possible >that Schirmer didn't see the movie and could tell us that he >didn't see it. But, does that mean he didn't see the ads for it >in the newspaper? That he didn't walk by the theater and see the >posters out front displaying the Martians and their headgear? >Could it be that he noticed something from the pop culture that, >for some reason, stuck in his mind and then, under the influence >of hypnosis, recalled that detail? But this is exactly the problem, Kevin, as Jerry and Mark and I keep pointing out. Questions like these can always be asked. You're demonstrating that there's no way to falsify any argument that Herb Schirmer got his alien from the move you cite. And since there's no way to falsify it, how can the claim be proved? (And no -- I'm not saying pop culture has no influence. I'm saying that it's hard to pin most UFO events to any particular pop-culture stimulus.) To put it differently -- what would convince you that Schirmer _didn't_ get his alien from the movie? That is, what would convince you apart from a completely different description of the alien? You have to grant, I hope you'll agree, at least the slight possibility that somebody might genuinely meet an alien resembling one in a movie. So, given that possibility, what would convince you that there wasn't any media influence? (Short of Schirmer having been raised by wolves, so he never saw any movies, movie trailers, ads for movies, or anything else in our culture.) There's an additional problem with all of this that just occured to me, courtesy of Peter Brookesmith, who helpfully posted Martin Kottmeyer's article on similar details in abduction cases. Kottmeyer points out that, in the cases he's discussing, the alleged similarities aren't as apparent to him as they were to John Carpenter and other abduction investigators. Some, in his not unconvincing view, required a leap of faith. Isn't it interesting, then, that Kottmeyer has argued more strongly and in more detail than anyone else for the influence of media on abduction narratives? He must spend half his life reading ancient science fiction comics, and seeing wonderfully bad old monster movies. Give him an abduction story, and he'll find something resembling it somewhere in a movie my video store hasn't even heard of. What he doesn't seem to understand is that -- just as with the abduction details he dissects -- many of these resemblances are matters of opinion. Abduction aliens have big eyes; aliens in a movie he's seen have big eyes; the big eyes in fact look quite different in the two cases, but that doesn't seem to bother Kottmeyer a bit. He has a double standard, in other words. When he's looking at abduction details, such differences matter a lot to him; when he's arguing for media influence on abduction accounts, the differences don't register. To return to you, Kevin, my point here is that there _are_ substantial differences -- both in specific details and in the larger context in which images appear -- between the science fiction movies you and Kottmeyer cite (not that I'm saying you and he always think alike). Again, I'm not denying that media influence abductees or anyone else. But media influence isn't random, and can't -- at least not if we want to be at all scientific -- be invoked as some catch-all explanation. Social scientists (notably absent from this debate about abduction imagery) need to specify the rules that media influence might follow, before we can responsibly say that media influenced anything in particular, unless the _causal_ connection (as opposed to mere resemblance) is absolutely obvious. Example of an obvious connection, courtesy of Philip Klass: An article about Bigfoot appears in the Washington Post, and immediately afterward people report 'bigfoot' sightings right in the DC area. (Were they confusing Washington, DC with Washington State?) One reason I'm not impressed by arguments for media influence is that the core of the reported abduction experience isn't in any science fiction I remember reading (and I read it voraciously for many years). That is, you can find details here and there, but the _entire_ picture -- shadowy aliens that come at night, take people from their beds, whisk them up to UFOs, never tell them why and frighten them by depriving them of all control, perform medical examinations, and make women pregnant -- can't be found in any science fiction narrative I've read or heard of. An important piece missing from all these arguments for media influence would be other examples of this purported phenomenon at work. That is, can anyone think of something else in real life with the emotional force of the abduction phenomenon that clearly, indisputably was created by pop culture? (Where are the social scientists? Why is a complex question like this one, which ought to be informed by specialized professional knowledge, left to amateurs like Kevin, me, Mark Cashman, Martin Kottmeyer, and Jerry Clark?) I can think of two such examples, and -- though I'm no social scientist and have no real standing to argue this point (an admission I wish others in this debate would just as cheerfully make) -- my examples seem to show that the abduction phenomenon can't have been generated the same way. One example would be the belief that Elvis is alive, fervently maintained by people who think they've seen him. And there's a parallel belief (set forth in a fascinating book by Raymond Moody, called 'Elvis After Life', I think) that Elvis has appeared to people after his death, functioning in effect as an angel. Where did this come from? Well, most likely from the intense fascination, verging on worship, that Elvis had for many people when he was alive. The match that lit the tinder might have been the Elvis sightings invented ten years or so ago by the Weekly World News, whose editors really do believe that they started the whole Elvis-is-alive phenomenon. Certainly they received thousands of letters from people who said they, too, had seen Elvis (I saw a mailbag full of those letters at the News' office in Lantana, Florida, and I opened many of them). Here you have an almost one-to-one correspondence between media story and real-life counterpart. The Weekly World News prints the story, and people immediately write in with stories of their own. My second example would be vampire cults, though I'm not sure "cult" is the proper word for them. They've been documented in at least two books. People drink each others' blood; many of them wear clothes and create environments based on vampire books and movies, especially Anne Rice's novels. Again, there's a one-to-one correspondence between pop culture and the phenomenon at hand. The vampire books and movies exist; people in the vampire groups consciously imitate them. They don't invent some other kind of vampire, a vampire that, for instance, might drink only animals' blood, or might love sunlight. You can find details in the abduction phenomenon that correspond to things (often pretty obscure) in science fiction. But can you find any familiar science fiction source that directly spawned the whole abduction narrative, the way Anne Rice spawned vampire cults? Greg Sandow
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 7 Craft Sweeps Sky For Solar System's History From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@get2net.dk> Date: Sun, 07 Feb 1999 05:24:33 GMT Fwd Date: Sun, 07 Feb 1999 09:09:32 -0500 Subject: Craft Sweeps Sky For Solar System's History Source: The Christian Science Monitor, http://www.csmonitor.com:80/durable/1999/02/05/p1s5.htm Stig *** FRIDAY, FEBRUARY 5, 1999 New Craft Sweeps Sky For Clues To Solar System's History Stardust spacecraft launches tomorrow in first effort to bring material from beyond the moon. Peter N. Spotts (pspotts@pspotts@nasw.org) Staff writer of The Christian Science Monitor ** Tomorrow, the world's most sophisticated dustpan is set to begin a seven-year sweep through the solar system - returning in 2006 with pristine samples of the microscopic bricks that are believed to have given rise to the planets. The mission marks the first time scientists have reached beyond the moon's orbit to return samples of extraterrestrial material. Scheduled for an afternoon launch from Cape Canaveral in Florida, the Stardust spacecraft will eventually pass near the core of a comet, known as Wild 2, to capture material from its coma - the cloud of cometary gas and dust that cloaks the nucleus. Scientists say the mission offers a unique opportunity to gain insights into the origin of the solar system. By bringing samples back to Earth - and analyzing them with high-tech equipment that can't be flown in space - they hope to unlock secrets contained within these ancient keepers of the solar system's early history. [Image: STARDUST: Drawing of the spacecraft, set for launch tomorrow. It will collect interstellar dust and fly past a comet in 2004. (NASA)] Earlier comet flybys - of Giacobini-Zinner in 1985 and Halley in 1986 - confirmed the theory that comets are "dirty snowballs." They formed on the frigid fringes of the solar system from a nebula of gas and dust that also gave rise to the sun and planets. A good deal of knowledge about comets' constituents has been gleaned from those missions and through the use of ground-based telescopes. In this mission, though, scientists hope to glean more by analyzing samples down to the level of individual atoms. Researchers "have long sought a sample directly from a known comet because of the unique chemical and physical information these bodies contain," says Edward Weiler, associate administrator for space science at the National Aeronautics and Space Administration (NASA), which is funding the mission. During its five-year cruise to the comet, Stardust also will snatch samples of interstellar dust, which constantly passes through the solar system. The dust forms through a variety of stellar processes, and scientists expect their examination to yield valuable clues about those processes. The relatively fresh interstellar dust, when compared with dust samples from the comet, could also yield insights into how these basic building blocks changed over the past 5.5 billion years. The effort provides an important reference point for studying cosmic dust that shuttle missions and high-flying U-2 research craft have returned. The rare particle of dust that isn't incinerated as it enters Earth's atmosphere is, however, altered by the heat. "But most important, we don't know where it comes from," says Donald Brownlee, a planetary scientist at the University of Washington in Seattle and the principal investigator for the Stardust mission. The $165 million Stardust spacecraft uses a unique device to capture the dust. The collector, which resembles an ice-cube tray shaped like a tennis racket, contains cubes of aerogel - a porous glass "cooked" much like Jell-O, then baked to draw out the moisture. What remains is a very light, transparent material that has been dubbed "frozen smoke." During the cruise to the comet, aerogel tiles in the tennis racket's "backhand" will sweep up interstellar dust. Other samples will be analyzed by a spectrometer aboard Stardust. The spectrometer determines a particle's composition from the ions the particle creates when it collides with a target inside the instrument. When Stardust reaches Wild 2 and enters the coma, the armored spacecraft will present the collector's "forehand" to pick up cometary dust. In addition, the navigation camera on Stardust will be used to try to take the first close-up shots of a comet's nucleus, just 93 miles away. After the samples have been collected, the tennis racket retracts into a special shell designed to withstand the heat of reentry into Earth's atmosphere. On Jan. 15, 2006, the craft will fly by Earth and eject the shell, which is expected to land on salt flats at the US military's Utah Test and Training Range near Salt Lake City. Although this mission marks the first time researchers have reached for samples of extraterrestrial material from beyond the moon's orbit, they are worried less about the samples contaminating Earth than Earth contaminating the samples. When the dust motes strike the aerogel tiles, they hit at speeds 30 times faster than a rifle bullet, briefly reaching temperatures sufficient to sterilize them, says Peter Tsou, a researcher at CalTech's Jet Propulsion Laboratory in Pasadena, Calif., who developed the collector system. He notes that when dust is captured in the atmosphere "you don't worry about contamination because the sample is already contaminated. Now we're catching dust that doesn't go through that. We have to take excruciating care not to introduce Earth stuff into the samples." * Before bookmarking this page in your browser, click *here. The URL for this page is: http://www.csmonitor.com/durable/1999/02/05/fp1s5-csm.shtml (c) Copyright 1999 The Christian Science Publishing Society. All rights reserved.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 7 Re: 8/27/96 MJ-12 Document From: Robert Todd <Bohica449@aol.com> Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 00:34:15 EST Fwd Date: Sun, 07 Feb 1999 09:24:12 -0500 Subject: Re: 8/27/96 MJ-12 Document >From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: Re: 8/27/96 Re: MJ-12 Document >Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 15:29:51 -0400 >>From: Robert Todd <Bohica449@aol.com> >>Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 00:32:25 EST >>To: updates@globalserve.net >>Subject: Re: 8/27/96 Re: MJ-12 Document >>>From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net> >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >>>Subject: Re: 8/27/96 Re: MJ-12 Document >>>Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 17:33:43 -0400 >>>>Date: Tue, 02 Feb 1999 14:42:01 -0800 >>>>From: Ed Stewart <ufoindex@jps.net> >>>>To: updates@globalserve.net >>>>Subject: 8/27/96 Re: MJ-12 Document >><snip> >>Friedman wrote: >>>Let us get facts straight: >>Ha! Fat chance! >>>1. I have never claimed to have had a TOP SECRET CLearance >>>although I did have a Q which gave me access to Secret >>>Restricted Data. >>On page 138 of 'Crash at Corona', Friedman claims: >>"Both authors handled materials classified top secret >>and higher, Friedman when in the nuclear industry and >>Berliner when in the air force." >>The logical inference is that Friedman had a TS clearance. >>Otherwise, he wouldn't have been authorized to 'handle' "top >>secret and higher" materials. Not only does Friedman infer that >>he had a TS clearance, he also infers that he had clearance for >>Top Secret/code word materials (as in 'higher' than TS). >><snip> >The quoted words are indeed in the book. I repeat I have never >had or told anybody I had a TS clearance. There was quite an >argument with Richard Boylan about this. I have of course >handled a great deal of formerly TS materials in my many >archival visits. Bob ought to try a visit. Oh, so you mean you _DIDN'T_ handle "materials classified top secret and higher... when in the nuclear industry" as you claimed in your book? >>>3. I published in my "Final Report on Operation Majestic 12" 5 >>>formerly TS documents which did not have Control numbers, >>>whether Ed Stewart likes it or not. >>None of those five documents originated from the same place as >>the Cutler-Twining memo; that is, none of those five documents >>was found among the TS records in Record Group 341 (Air Force >>Headquarters). >It is not irrelevant. There are many Air Force documents that >Bob might think belong in RG 341, but aren't there whether he >likes it or not. I _never_ said the documents he found at the Library of Congress belonged in RG 341. This is a complete figment of Friedman's imagination. But I suspect he knows that, and is setting up this straw man to distract readers away from his deceptions. Again, with respect to TS control numbers, the documents he and his other "research team" members found at the Library of Congress, _years_ before the fakes showed up, most certainly are NOT relevant to whether or not there should have been a TS control number on the Cutler-Twining memo Moore/Shandera 'found' in RG 341. If Moore or Shandera did not plant the Cutler-Twining memo in the Archives, it would have been there legitimately, and the Air Force _would_ have assigned a TS control number to it. Yet it has no such control number, which clearly suggests that Moore or Shandera planted the document in the files, since even Friedman acknowledges that Moore and Shandera were the first researchers to examine the files following declassificaion reviews by both Air Force _and_ National Archives personnel, reviews which failed to turn up the Cutler-Twining memo. Even Friedman has acknowledged that the Cutler-Twining memo was planted in the Archives. But he contends the document was planted by somebody on the Air Force declassification team, whereas I contend the most likely suspects are Moore and Shandera. Whether or not the documents the Moore-Shandera-Friedman "research team" found at the Library of Congress have TS control numbers has _nothing_ whatever to do with the absence of such a number on the Cutler-Twining memo, which Moore/Shandera claim was 'found' in RG 341 -- _not_ in the Library of Congress. Friedman is throwing up a smoke screen in a desperate attempt to make himself appear to be right, when in fact he couldn't be more wrong. He is clouding the issue with utter nonsense, which is a clear indication of deception on his part. >For example, the Library of Congress Manuscript >Division in Washington has the papers of the first three Chiefs >of Staff of the USAF namely Carl Spaatz, Hoyt Vandenberg (MJ-12 >member), Nathan F. Twining (MJ-12 member.). Much of this >material was classified TOP SECRET or Secret. Gradually more and >more has been declassified. The amounts are not really trivial. >For example, in Twining's case there were about 120 Archive >Boxes. One of these ,about Box number 120, had folders labelled >TOP SECRET and EYES ONLY. In one of these there were two memos >from Robert Cutler, Special Assistant to the President. One is >TOP SECRET EYES ONLY dated July 13, l953.and is a "Memorandum >for General Twining" The other is TOP SECRET and is "Memorandum >for the Secretary of Defense" dated June 25, l953. Distribution >"Wilson 2; Nash 2, Lay 1; Koons 1; President's file 1;" Once again, this nonsense simply isn't relevant to the absence of a TS control number on a document supposedly 'found' in RG 341. Once again, it is little more than a desperate attempt on Friedman's part to hide his deception. Since he seems to be big on labeling people with "mottoes," his seems to be, 'If you can't dazzle 'em with brilliance, baffle 'em with bullshit.' He's trying his best to baffle readers with irrelevant bullshit, hoping they won't catch on to his deceptions. >The Interesting thing is that neither memo has a control number >on it. Furthermore, the Cutler Twining Memo (July 14, l954)is >from Robert Cutler to General Twining. It also like the other 2 >memos from the same source and in the same file has no control >number. The source is Robert Cutler at the White House NOT RG >341.Because some USAF HQ files are in RG 341 does NOT mean all >are. More attempts to baffle. His remarks are attempts to distract readers away from the real issues. >>Friedman's argument is irrelevant, and deliberately misleading. >>>4. Judging by the Cutler Twining Memo, we are dealing with a >>>NSC/MJ-12 Special Studies Group. This is not part of the >>>Department of Defense. The NSC serves the President. >>It doesn't matter. It's where the record allegedly was 'found' >>by Bill Moore and/or Jaime Shandera that counts. If one or the >>other didn't plant it in the Archives, it would have had a TS >>control number assigned to it. >This statement is FALSE. There are TS documents relating to >General Twining in an official classified document repository >(Library of Congress Manuscript Division for one) without TS >Control numbers and whose provenance is certain. I published >some. Cutler's office was at the White House NOT in the >Pentagon. This statement most certainly is _not_ false! Moore/Shandera claim to have 'found' the Cutler-Twining memo in one of the entries in RG 341 that contains top secret materials. The documents in the entry in which the document supposedly was 'found' are filed by TS control number -- not by title, not by date, not by subject -- just TS control number. The _only_ way to access the documents is through the TS control numbers. If Moore or Shandera didn't plant the document in the file and then feign 'discovery', that is, if the document really was in the RG 341 entry legitimately, the Air Force would have assigned a TS control number to the Cutler-Twining memo long before it was turned over to the Archives, and the document would display that TS control number now. The fact that it does not show a TS control number is just one of a long list of reasons to believe the document was planted in the Archives, a conclusion to which even Friedman subscribes. Whether or not TS control numbers were used on the records at the Library of Congress is _completely_irrelevant_ to any discussion of the use of TS control numbers in the RG 341 materials, and Friedman _has_ to know it is irrelevant, yet he pushes this bogus 'explanation' almost as much as he pushes the bogus MJ-12 documents. >>The number would have been >>assigned by the Air Force, not the NSC or White House. Of >>course, Friedman contends somebody on the Air Force >>declassification team planted the memo in the Archives for >>Moore/Shandera to find. Yeah, right. It doesn't seem to matter >>to Friedman that the records in question were reviewed for >>declassification by Air Force _and_ National Archives personnel >>both, and at no time did the memo surface -- and it would have >>surfaced because NSC materials require special handling. And, >>by Friedman's own admission, Moore and Shandera were the first >>researchers to review these records following declassification >>review. How odd. >>Just more of Friedman's _many_ misrepresentations. >One thing is for sure, If one didn't go looking, the memo would >not have been fund. But Bob, to the best of my knowledge, has >never been to any archive even though, based in Belmont, >Pennsylvania, near Philadelphia, he is much closer to >Washington, DC, than Bill and Jamie in California or me up here >in New Brunswick. Bob, of course, has left out the post cards >that led Bill and Jaime to DC and my earlier visit during which >I found out that classification review was being done on some >entries in Record Group 341. These facts are discussed in my >final Report on Op. Majestic 12 and in TOP SECRET/MAJIC. Nothing >like selective choice of data. Ah, yes, more irrelvant distractions intended to mislead the reader into believing Friedman knows what he's talking about, but I don't. >Furthermore I made a substantial, but unsuccesful, effort to >determine the identity of the declassification teams which >handled box 189 within 3 weeks of the death of the last >survining member of MJ-12 (Jerome Hunsaker) and within 2 weeks >prior to when Shandera and Moore visited the archives. The >declassifiers were able to bring in brief cases and were >certainly in the best position of anybody to plant the CT memo. >having also had access to whatever box held it in the first >place. Yes, but the records also were examined by Archives personnel, so your theory -- a theory without a shred of credible evidence to support it -- is just another attempt to distract everybody away from the persons who likely manufactured the bogus Cutler-Twining memo, and planted it in the Archives. And I think Friedman knows full well that Bill Moore is the most likely suspect, since Moore told Friedman he planned to manufacture bogus government documents in an ill-fated attempt to force the government's hand on Roswell, and Friedman found the plan acceptable. It isn't clear what role Friedman played in the manufacture of the bogus documents, beyond furnishing (wittingly or unwittingly) the names, dates, and places around which the documents were built. No wonder Friedman was able simply to reach into his own file cabinets to find documents that seemingly "confirmed" various aspects of the MJ-12 documents, even _before_ Friedman was shown copies of the actual MJ-12 documents themselves! But it isn't very likely either Bill Moore or Stan Friedman will confess to their respective roles in the MJ-12 hoax. >The telephone and the US mail do not provide the same exposure >to archival material And yet I know more about government records systems than Friedman can ever hope to know. Go figure. >and how varied the format, styles, type >face etc are in the real world. I recall Phil Klass claiming >that the NSC used elite type.. on the basis of 9 samples he had >received in the mail. He paid me $1000. because there were at >least 10 done in PICA type as he certainly would have noticed if >he had visited the Ike Library. Ah, yes, the infamous bet with "debunker" Klass, a stupid bet at best, but one about which Friedman will never stop boasting. That bet had nothing to do with me. It is irrelevant, but Friedman attempts to draw a parallel, thereby suggesting that he is the brilliant Nuclear Physicist, and I am a wannabe, or soon-to-be, Phil Klass who doesn't know what he's talking about. But, I _do_ know what I'm talking about, and, as a result, I know Friedman is being dishonest -- but that's hardly news. >I strongly recommend that Bob visit archives. It is an >enlightening, sometimes time and money consuming experience. >Stan Friedman I strongly recommend that Nuclear Physicist Stan Friedman take two nuclear physics and call me in the morning, 'cause he's _really_ full of it!
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 7 The Sheffield Incident & Things From: Max Burns <AlienHype@aol.com> Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 00:34:41 EST Fwd Date: Sun, 07 Feb 1999 09:59:42 -0500 Subject: The Sheffield Incident & Things Hello good people Yes you may have noticed that I have been off line for a couple of months? Moving house / motherboard exploded - just every day things.... Please replace my old email address: AlienHype1@Aol.com with my new address: AlienHype@Aol.com And some news will be breaking that is really going to put the cat among the pigeons, regarding the Sheffield Incident... Independent information via another researcher, who is going on the record that he was in the company of, for a few days while on holiday, with a N.A.T.O. Tornado jet pilot. The pilot has confirmed 'off-the-record' that the incident over the Peak District was all the American's fault, and indeed the night's events culminated in the loss of a N.A.T.O Tornado Jet, resulting in the death of a pilot... The co-pilot found wandering on snake pass 1 hour after the incident. (Jonathan Dagenhart) mini-bus passenger. Vindicating myself and my research into this incident. Just to recap on the case, a brief summary of the Sheffield Incident: The nights' events for me began on 24 March 1997 with a telephone call to my home at about 21.55, from the witness Emma Maidenhead. During my investigation it has become apparent that there are eight clear witnesses to the UFO, with a number of other possible reports contained in the police-log. There were multiple sonic booms or air explosions occurring at 21.52 and 22.06 and the UFO was tracked on radar in the time frame of 21.55 to 22.05. The radar track occurred in between the sonic occurrences. The triangle appears to have been intercepted by the military jets, as is confirmed by three of the witnesses. A covert low flying mission taking place at the time was scheduled to be on the ground at approximately 21.20. The question must be asked "Why were the jets still in the air over thirty minutes after they were scheduled to land? This is in breach of orders, unless of course they were ordered to intercept the UFO. This would explain why they were in the air well after they were scheduled to land. The military still have not admitted to causing the sonic booms or air explosions, which occurred at 21.52 and 22.06 but the M.o.D. have changed their version of events on at least four occasions. Why would a training mission warrant such secrecy and denials? After all is said and done training missions are pretty mundane! The triangle was seen in the area by five, clear, independent witnesses. Another three witnesses all saw the glowing orange object moving across the night sky over the town of Dronfield, the city of Sheffield and the surrounding rural areas. Three of the witnesses saw the triangle either being escorted or intercepted by six military jets. Six of the triangle sightings occurred between 21.45 to 22.15. The weather conditions on that night were, clear skies with very little cloud cover and only a light breeze. Therefore the possibility of atmospheric conditions causing the sonic events must be discounted. I believe a number of questions need answering. Were there any other military aircraft over the skies of the UK on the 24th March 1997? The fact that there were three clear sightings by members of the public who saw the jets in very close proximity to the Triangle, almost 30 minutes after they were scheduled to return, should preclude the answer. Unless in fact the jets involved in the incident, were involved in a covert, low flying mission and were told to intercept the triangle. The jets were there thirty minutes after they were scheduled to land why? Were these jets not connected to those on the low flying training mission? Jets were in the area between 21.45 and 22.00. This coincides with the numerous reports of UFOs that I have collated over the last sixteen months. The witnesses are quire clear that what they saw was neither, a plane or a meteorite. In particular to the report to the police by Mr Bryan Haslam who reported his sighting of the flying triangle at 19.40. Although this was two hours before the main aspects of the incident it should not be discounted, the police felt it prudent include it in the incident log. His sighting occurred while it was still just daylight, he was quite clear about what he saw. I feel that questions remain unanswered about events over the Peak District on the 24th March 1997. The fact that the M.o.D. have changed their version of events on a number of occasions shows that something is not quite right. All these changing stories are just not warranted for something as mundane as a 'training exercise'. Perhaps most significant is the taped testimony of Mr Jonathan Dagenhart a member of the RAF, who clearly stated that he encountered a man on Snake Pass (in the Peak District) about 1 hour after the sonic events or air explosions occurred, who was "stinking of aviation fuel". This was within a couple of miles of where the incident occurred. He has since tried to retract his statement informing me that he "had been spoken to."! When I asked him to elaborate he stated that he was not allowed to comment with regard to who had spoken to him. And some more about the case to follow: This new information now leads strongly to the motivations and agenda of those who have sought to have me silenced and would have preferred it if no one had listened to me. You may know who they are. You must have seen the 'picture' building, with the cross-fertilising of posts and the aggression which this well orchestrated debunking exercise has taken shape against myself and the case over the last 18 months. Just thought that I would bring you up to speed, and is me just saying "Hello", and letting you know that I am still free, as the Crown have now cancelled my trial on the absurd drug charges for the third time - with no 're.' date listed. Obviously this is frustrating for my defence council and myself as we are keen to see this through the courts and to have my good name cleared. Although I cannot discuss the case in detail due to the laws of prejudice and subjudisy, I can say that there is no forensic evidence linking myself to exhibit A, e.g. finger-prints. If I had handled exhibit A, in the contradicting various ways the police allege - that I have held the item in question - you would have found my fingerprints or a partial print etc. I am sure you will not be surprised, in the light of recent developments, if I tell you that I was not wearing gloves. There were no gloves in the car, and exhibit A: has not got any fingerprints on it of any description - no ones..... I ask that if any of you have any important posts from the last two months that I may need to see regarding the Sheffield Case or my investigation into Chronic Fatigue Syndrome or if you mailed me and I failed to reply, please, resend. I can only apololgise for the delay. Watch your mail for the full 'on-the-record' article by a researcher who will remain, for the time being, name-less. But who, rest assured, will be going public with what he was told, regarding the Sheffield Flying triangle incident March 24th 1997. Debunkers, hard line sceptics and other spOOks, you will have to wait for this man to reveal himself before you start the attack Kindest regards, Max Burns
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 7 Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality From: Rebecca <xiannekei@yahoo.com> Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 22:01:54 -0800 (PST) Fwd Date: Sun, 07 Feb 1999 12:54:03 -0500 Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 00:28:43 -0600 (CST) >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net> >Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality > >>Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 09:32:48 -0800 (PST) >>From: Rebecca Keith <xiannekei@yahoo.com> >>Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> ><snip> >>Thanks Greg. I wish I still had my copy of this excellent paper. >Hell, woman! >You're supposed to hold on to the good stuff and get rid of the >bad stuff. Didn't I teach you nuthin' in Roswell? Now I gotta >whiplash you again? Promises, promises! I've had a slight downturn since Roswell (everything has been downhill since Roswell) and I don't have anything I need -- but that's another story for another time. >Bend over! Or get a scanner. <G> >Or better yet, define yourself. Are you a skeptic, a sympathetic >skeptic, a debunker, a governemnt agent, a paid disinformation >agent or merely a disseminator (sp?) of disinformation like the >rest of us? Well.... I'm a non-CSICOP-ian Skeptic. How's that? I can debunk, but I'm not a debunker. <VBG> >Curious minds like mine would like to know. They would also like >to know what you're getting paid per hour. Doesn't $14.50/hr >seem a tad on the low side to you, given all the damage that >we've managed to accrete? I'd be real happy with $14.50/hr right now. I was up to much more than that though, but I think the person who sent the checks didn't get the change of address card -- just like MUFON (which, like everything else seems to have gone downhill ... since Roswell). >Don't know 'bout you, but I'm feeling due for a raise, havng >thoroughly confused the issue about skeptic & debunker. $20/hr >or I take a hike. <G>I think you have made excellent points about skeptics and debunkers. -Rebecca
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 7 Re: RAMS - Cleanup The Corners From: Mark Dean <mdean@jps.net> Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 22:05:50 -0800 Fwd Date: Sun, 07 Feb 1999 13:21:47 -0500 Subject: Re: RAMS - Cleanup The Corners >Date: Fri, 05 Feb 1999 22:15:45 -0600 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >From: Michael Christol <mchristo@mindspring.com> >Subject: Re: RAMS - Cleanup The Corners >I was so looking to a giant step forward in 'public' space >trasnsportation... >To me, the X-33 is just a glorified Space Shuttle, and still >not practicle for the average citizen. >It was my understanding that the space plane would take off at >any international air port in the USA and fly to suborbit or >orbit, then decend to land in Europe or somewhere else, in just >a matter of half an hour to an hour... >Yes, to say I am disappointed, is a given...sigh...just >once I would like to see them do something for the average >citizen where space flight is concurned. >At this pace, it will be another hundred years before you and I >can be a participating part of it... Mike worry not, I've heard that the privet sector is working on getting people like you and me into space. Maybe We will see it in our life time, and have a chance at it. :-) By the way I'm back. you can tell them that your friend that worked with Marcel. Is now on the list
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 7 E.T. in Quarantine From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@get2net.dk> Date: Sun, 07 Feb 1999 06:47:09 GMT Fwd Date: Sun, 07 Feb 1999 13:28:06 -0500 Subject: E.T. in Quarantine [List only] Source: ABCNews http://abcnews.go.com:80/sections/science/DailyNews/oberg990204.html Stig *** E.T. in Quarantine By Jim Oberg Special to ABCNEWS.com Feb. 4 - Quarantines can help a society protect itself from dangerous infections. The word comes from the French, for the 40 days of isolation once faced by new arrivals who may have been infected. After the quarantine has passed, they were either certified to be disease-free - or dead. Quarantining an entire planet against potentially harmful extraterrestrial diseases becomes more difficult. Though the odds are minuscule, what's needed to prevent something with global consequences? What protections are reasonable? The launch of Stardust to retrieve a milligram of dust from the Wild-2 comet is the first human attempt to bring back extraterrestrial samples in almost three decades. NASA would like to bring back samples from Mars in less than 10 years. Other comet missions are also on tap, and the Russians dream of retrieving samples from the Martian moons Phobos and Deimos. Space Spores There's also the renewed debate over natural transport, via meteorites and space dust. A century ago, scientists used the term "panspermia" to describe the possibility that spores could naturally pass from planet to planet. Today, space experts have asked themselves if the quarantine issue isn't already moot, since new evidence and computer simulations suggest there never has been biological isolation between planets. Asteroid impacts on Earth, the moon and Mars have flung rocks off each world, circling the sun until they slam into a nearby world. One extreme view is that life on Earth is the result of contamination from Mars. That smaller planet cooled earlier than Earth, and seems to have had oceans for hundreds of millions of years while Earth's surface was still molten. Martian rocks bearing spores could have rained upon Earth until our oceans formed and provided a hospitable environment for a few lucky survivors. Rain From Mars Even today, a hundred tons of meteorites and space dust fall on Earth every day. About one-tenth of 1 percent of that - perhaps 100 kilograms per day - is from Mars. Four billion years ago, during what planetary scientists call the Period of Heavy Bombardment, there would have been much, much more. But could microorganisms survive these interplanetary journeys? During a conference on Mars exploration in Boulder, Colo., last August, retired Swedish industrialist Curt Mileikowsky discussed the work of a European team that evaluated exactly these prospects. The group considered hazards such as shock and heating during ejection off the planet's surface, cosmic rays and heat-induced DNA decay while en route, and heating during impact at the end of the journey. For some meteorites, the Europeans were astonished to discover that microbial survival rates could be very high even for trips that lasted up to a million years. While it's commonly thought that meteorites falling to Earth are thoroughly seared by the heat of atmospheric entry, this is a misconception. The outer skin may be burned off during the very brief fireball phase, but most of the meteorite's interior remains at the subfreezing temperature of deep space. Freshly fallen meteorites, far from being red hot, often have frost on them from condensation. Any microbial passengers would have a gentle landing. Hazards From Related Life If ancient Mars life also left modern descendants at home, the biohazard to its cousins on Earth is much higher than that from two independent strands of life. In a 1994 article entitled "Is It Dangerous To Return Samples From Mars To Earth?," Carl Sagan wrote: "If putative Martian organisms were originally transferred to Mars by collisions with the Earth, they may be enough like us that they could be pathogenic." The same argument holds if the transfer was from Mars to Earth. Whether Mars had - or has - life that's related to Earth life, some sort of quarantine is called for. NASA has implemented some protocols for its Mars samples, but the issue includes more than just that planet. Last year, the National Research Council in Washington, D.C., issued a report on the "biological potential" for samples from other solar system bodies, and concluded that while some sources could be judged entirely nonhazardous, others - including comets - still require protective measures. Space Sterilization Stardust scientists insist that their collecting - high-speed impact of cometary dust grains into the fine aerogel collectors - will automatically sterilize the recovered material. Test results back this up - at least for what we keep calling "life as we know it." Some scientists remain unconvinced that current protections are good enough. A new group called the International Committee Against Mars Sample Return recently launched a Web site discussing its concerns, with links to other documents on planetary quarantine. Barry DiGregorio, co-founder of the group, says he's concerned that NASA may relax its standards of Mars samples. One idea even described a special-purpose space station designed to process extraterrestrial samples in absolute isolation from Earth's biosphere - a quarantine for the Space Age. James Oberg spent 22 years as a rocket scientist for NASA, and has written eight books and numerous articles on space flight. Life on the Moon, Maybe It's commonly thought that on at least one occasion, infectious germs were brought back from the moon. This occurred on the Apollo 12 mission in November 1969, when the crew retrieved pieces of the Surveyor 3 robot that had been on the moon for two years. Subsequent culturing of swabs from various locations gave one positive result - viable Streptococcus mitus spores were picked up from a swab rubbed inside the Surveyor's camera case. Microbiologists weren't all that startled by the finding, since the temperatures inside the hardware on the lunar surface had stayed well within the range that microbial spores were known to tolerate, even if it had also been in a vacuum (and viable spores have been retrieved from spacecraft brought back after months or even years in Earth orbit). Unfortunately, the technician collecting the lunar swabs back in 1969 was seen to violate isolation protocol by laying the new swabs down on a non-sterilized table surface. So the positive results could have been caused by somebody sneezing in the room the previous day. Even though it's intriguing that the one positive was the sample taken from the most sheltered interior location of the hardware, the finding must be chalked up as interesting if true, and left to dangle in perpetual ambiguity. *Life on the Moon, Maybe More on Stardust and E.T.: *Comet Mission Launches Saturday *Lee Dye: Life in the Extreme Web Links: *The Mars Society *National Research Council Report *International Committee Against Mars Sample Return *NASA's Stardust Site *Cosmic Ancestry Archive: *Jim Oberg's past articles Copyright =A91999 ABC News Internet Ventures. All rights reserved.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 7 Greatest Intelligence Scam Of The Century? From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@get2net.dk> Date: Sun, 07 Feb 1999 10:20:06 GMT Fwd Date: Sun, 07 Feb 1999 13:30:22 -0500 Subject: Greatest Intelligence Scam Of The Century? Source: Covert Action Quarterly 63, 30 Jan 1999, http://caq.com:80/CAQ/caq63/caq63madsen.html Stig *** Crypto AG: The NSA's Trojan Whore? by Wayne Madsen For At Least Half A Century, The Us Has Been Intercepting And Decrypting The Top Secret Documents Of Most Of The World'S Governments ** It may be the greatest intelligence scam of the century: For decades, the US has routinely intercepted and deciphered top secret encrypted messages of 120 countries. These nations had bought the world's most sophisticated and supposedly secure commercial encryption technology from Crypto AG, a Swiss company that staked its reputation and the security concerns of its clients on its neutrality. The purchasing nations, confident that their communications were protected, sent messages from their capitals to embassies, military missions, trade offices, and espionage dens around the world, via telex, radio, teletype, and facsimile. They not only conducted sensitive albeit legal business and diplomacy, but sometimes strayed into criminal matters, issuing orders to assassinate political leaders, bomb commercial buildings, and engage in drug and arms smuggling. All the while, because of a secret agreement between the National Security Agency (NSA) and Crypto AG, they might as well have been hand delivering the message to Washington. Their Crypto AG machines had been rigged so that when customers used them, the random encryption key could be automatically and clandestinely transmitted with the enciphered message. NSA analysts could read the message traffic as easily as they could the morning newspaper. The cover shielding the NSA-Crypto AG relationship was torn in March 1992, when the Iranian military counterintelligence service arrested Hans Buehler, Crypto AG's marketing representative in Teheran. The Iranian government charged the tall, 50ish businessman with spying for the "intelligence services of the Federal Republic of Germany and the United States of America." "I was questioned for five hours a day for nine months," Buehler says. "I was never beaten, but I was strapped to wooden benches and told I would be beaten. I was told Crypto was a spy center" that worked with foreign intelligence services. Despite prolonged interrogation, Buehler - who had worked for Crypto AG for 13 years and was on his 25th trip to Iran - apparently maintained his ignorance. "I didn't know that the equipment was bugged, otherwise the Iranians ould have gotten it out of me by their many _methods._ " With millions of dollars in contracts and a major international spy operation at stake, the company was eager to make the incident and Buehler go away, even though the salesman had brought in 40 percent of Crypto's 100 million Swiss franc sales revenue. Crypto bought Buehler's freedom with a $1 million payment to the Iranians, returned him to Switzerland, and then, astonishingly, fired him and ordered the bewildered salesman to repay the bond. The cover-up backfired, however, when current and former Crypto employees came to Buehler's defense and shared their first-hand knowledge of manipulated cipher equipment. "I hold proofs [sic] of the rigging of code machines," said an unidentified former Crypto AG engineer. "Fifteen years ago, I saw American and German engineers doctoring our machines. It took me some time until I was certain about the manipulations. The proofs: technical documents. ... I put them in a bank safety deposit box. Then I informed the federal prosecutors_ office in Berne. There were many conversations. Suddenly, these contacts were broken off and the affair petered out." The engineer told another reporter: the schemes and the cipher keys were created by them [NSA and BND (Bundesnacrichtendienst-the German intelligence service)]. I immediately, discreetly, notified the Swiss prosecutors. There was an investigation. I was never able to find out the result. Today, the Buehler affair brings everything out in the open again. And, I'm afraid. What happened to Hans Buehler could happen to any other salesperson of Crypto AG. It's not a question of attacking this company; it's a question of saving lives.... When the Swiss media began to reveal the background of Buehler's story, Crypto AG responded with a lawsuit in an attempt to quash the story and muzzle Buehler. The suit was settled days before former Crypto engineers were to testify that they thought the machines had been altered. The parties agreed not to disclose the settlement and Crypto sought to reassure its clients. Informed sources in Switzerland and the Middle East confirmed that Crypto AG settled because it, and the NSA and BND, didn_t want to reveal anything in court. Nevertheless, the damage to Crypto AG's credibility was already done. Customers from Saddam Hussein to the Pope grew nervous. Informed of the details around the Hans Buehler incident, the Vatican =D1 which uses Swiss cipher machines to secure diplomatic communications transmitted from the Holy See to the many papal nuncios around the world-showed a marked lack of charity. An official branded the perpetrators "bandits!" SWISS CHEESE NEUTRALITY Although the Iranians may have been technically wrong about Buehler's complicity in the massive deception, they were right that something was rotten at Crypto AG. And even before the firing of Hans Buehler, some of Cypto's engineers were ambivalent about secret deals with the NSA. "At first, I was idealistic," said Juerg Spoerndli, who left Crypto in 1994. "But I adapted quickly. ... The new aim was to help Big Brother USA look over these countries_ shoulders. We_d say, _It's better to let the USA see what these dictators are doing._ " Soon, however, Spoerndli grew apprehensive over the manipulation. "It's still an imperialistic approach to the world. I don_t think it's the way business should be done." Ruedi Hug, another former Crypto AG engineer, was also critical. "I feel betrayed," he declared. "They always told us, _We are the best. Our equipment is not breakable, blah, blah, blah. ... Switzerland is a neutral country._ " Apparently not. A document released in 1995 by Britain's Public Records Office indicates that Switzerland and NATO concluded a secret deal in 1956. The "Top Secret" document, dated February 10, 1956, with the reference "prem 11/1224," was written by the famous British World War II figure, Field Marshal Bernard L. Montgomery. While "Monty" was a vice-commander of NATO, he discussed a secret alliance with Swiss Defense Minister Paul Chaudet. In peacetime, Switzerland would be officially neutral, but in wartime, it would side with NATO. A US document released in 1995 shows Switzerland's importance to US national security. A Presidential directive on national security prepared for President Truman states that "Switzerland ... delivers precision instruments and other materials necessary for the armament of the USA and NATO countries [emphasis added]." Germany's BND, too, has apparently cooperated with the US encryption rigging scheme through Siemens Defense Electronics Group of Munich. A previous director of Siemens called Crypto AG a "secret Siemens daughter," while a former Crypto AG financial director said, "the owner of the firm [Crypto] is the Federal Republic [of Germany]." The Siemens connection to Crypto was remarkably incestuous. Siemens provided technical assistance for the machine manipulation process. Suspicion about the German electronics giant's role in Crypto's operations was heightened when it was reported that Siemens helped raise the $1 million to spring Buehler from his Teheran prison cell. In fact, after revelations of the Crypto-Siemens association hit the Swiss press, Crypto's managing director Michael Grupe informed the employees that the advisory board to Crypto's board of directors was being dissolved. The two advisers-Alfred Nowosad and Helmut Wiesner-were both full-time Siemens employees. With the world media describing the company as a silent partner of German and American signals intelligence (sigint) agencies around the world, Grube announced that "Crypto is changing its profile." The German government's contribution to the encryption rigging scheme also included its pressuring another Swiss firm, Gretag Data Systems AG, to allow a "red thread" program to be installed in the encryption software. "Red threading" is the software equivalent of sending in a Greek Trojan horse. Once owned by AT&T, this encryption manufacturer was acquired in 1995 by Information Resources Engineering (IRE), Inc. of Baltimore, Maryland.19 Interestingly, IRE is staffed by a number of ex-NSA cryptographic engineers. A third Swiss encryption company, Info Guard AG, was fully acquired by Crypto AG on June 16, 1994. Info Guard, which had been 50 percent owned by Crypto AG, primarily sells encryption units to banks in Switzerland and abroad. Although German and American sigint agencies were involved in manipulating Crypto's cipher machines, Motorola, one of the NSA's major US contractors, performed the actual technical lteration, according to a former Crypto AG chief engineer who was personally involved in the manipulation process. CRYPTO HUDDLE Once the cipher machines were rigged to include the secret decryption key, the BND and NSA codebreakers could use the transmitted key to read any message sent by Crypto AG's 120 country customers. One previous Crypto AG employee contends that all developmental Crypto AG equipment had to be sent for approval to the NSA and to the German Central Cipher Bureau (Zentralstelle f=FCr Chiffrierung [ZfCH]), now the Federal Information Security Agency (Bundesamt f=FCr Sicherheit in der Informationstechnik [BSI] which is also Department 62 of the BND) in Bad Godesberg, near Bonn. In other cases, Crypto AG was apparently forced to market encryption equipment manufactured in the US, sent to Crypto, and passed off as Swiss equipment. In the 1970s, as Crypto was moving from electro-mechanical to computerized crypto units, a former Crypto AG engineer in Switzerland inspected one of the first prototype computerized machines sent from the US. He remarked that since the code could be easily broken, he found the machine useless. But when he told his superiors that he could improve the encryption process if he was given access to the mathematical functions, two US cryptographic "experts" refused to disclose the information. According to a confidential Crypto AG memorandum, one of the NSA "experts" may have been Nora L. Mackabee, an NSA cryptographer who is now retired on a horse farm in Maryland along with her husband Lester, another retired NSA employee. Between August 19 and 20, 1975, three Crypto AG engineers huddled with Mackabee (identified as representing "IA" =D1 most likely "intelligence agency") along with three Motorola engineers and one other American, Herb Frank. One Motorola engineer recalled that Frank was probably from another US intelligence agency based in northern Virginia but described him as a non-technical person who seemed to be making the administrative arrangements for Mackabee. Crypto engineer Juerg Spoerndli, who was responsible for designing the firm's encryption equipment, had heard from older engineers about the visits in earlier years by mysterious Americans. He concluded that NSA was ordering the design changes through German intermediaries. He confirmed the manipulation and admitted that in the late 1970s, he was "ordered to change algorithms under mysterious circumstances"25 to weaken his cipher units. PRIVACY? HA! Although the Buehler incident lent credence to the NSA Trojan Horse theory, it was not the first time that suspicions were raised. Teheran had become concerned in 1987 when US official claimed "conclusive evidence that Iran ordered the kidnapping" of ABC News Beirut correspondent Charles Glass. Washington's alleged proof was coded Iranian diplomatic cables =D1 intercepted by the NSA =D1 between Teheran and the Hezbollah (Party of God) terrorist group in Lebanon via Iran's embassies in Beirut and Damascus. The next year, when a terrorist bomb brought down PanAm Flight 103 over Lockerbie, Scotland, it seems the NSA gained information by intercepting the communications of Iranian Interior Minister Ali Akbar Mohtashemi. It was apparently these messages that implicated Iran, not Libya. One intelligence summary, prepared by the US Air Force Intelligence Agency, cites Iran's Mohtashemi as the mastermind. Released in redacted form pursuant to a Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) request by lawyers for the bankrupt Pan American Airlines, it states: Mohtashemi is closely connected with the Al Abas and Abu Nidal terrorist groups. He is actually a long-time friend of Abu Nidal. He has recently paid 10 million dollars in cash and gold to these two organizations to carry out terrorist activities and was the one who paid the same amount to bomb PanAm Flight 103 in retaliation for the U.S. shoot-down of the Iranian Airbus. Mohtashemi has also spent time in Lebanon. An Israeli intercept of Iranian diplomatic coded communications between Mohtashemi's Interior Ministry in Teheran and the Iranian embassy in Beirut (where Mohtashemi once served as ambassador) revealed more than two years before Buehler was arrested by Iran that the Shi_ite cleric transferred $1.2 to $2 million used for the bombing of PanAm 103 to the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine-General Command headed by Ahmed Jibril. Such revelations must have made the Iranians extremely suspect of the security of their diplomatic traffic. The role of Israel may be explained by a little-reported intelligence alliance. NSA maintains a link with the Israeli sigint entity, "Department 8200," located in northern Tel Aviv at Herzliya. The sigint link is said to involve the British Government Communications Headquarters (GCHQ) base on Cyprus. Israel's ability to crack the Iranian Crypto AG codes indicates that Israel had access to the key decoding programs. The ease with which the West was reading Iranian coded transactions obviously meant that someone in Israel's sigint services possessed the decryption keys. Then in 1992, Buehler was arrested. As the Swiss authorities struggled to put the pieces together, they at first believed that the Iranian secret services were retaliating for the arrest in Switzerland of Zeynold Abedine Sarhadi, an employee of the Iranian embassy in Berne and a nephew of former Iranian President Hashemi Rafsanjani. Swiss police had arrested Sarhadi in early 1992 and were planning to extradite him to France to face trial for the 1991 assassination in Paris of former Iranian Prime Minister Shahpour Bakhtiar. On August 7, 1991, one day before Bakhtiar was found dead with his throat slit, the Teheran headquarters of the Iranian Intelligence Service, vevak, transmitted a coded message to Iranian diplomatic missions in London, Paris, Bonn, and Geneva, inquiring "Is Bakhtiar dead?" The Iranians concluded from Western press reports that Briish and American sigint operators had intercepted and decoded the message (as reported by L_Express of Paris) and knew that Teheran was behind the assassination. They realized that their code had been broken, looked to their Crypto AG cipher machines, and picked up Buehler. According to one European source, they may also have been tipped off by Stasi files of the ex-East German regime that found their way to Iran and revealed the Crypto AG ruse. In any case, the Iranians immediately began grilling prisoner 01228-1 about the role he and his company played in giving Iranian and Libyan codes to the US. Iran knew that Bakhtiar's assassination had compromised the intelligence functions of the Iranian UN mission and embassy in Geneva. The NSA had already identified one of the assassins, Mohammed Azadi, from intercepts of his phone calls from a pay phone in the town of Annecy in Savoy and an Istanbul apartment to the Iranian diplomatic mission in Geneva. On December 6, 1994, a special French terrorism court convicted two Iranians of murdering Bakhtiar, but strangely, it acquitted Sarhadi. "Justice has not been entirely served [for] reasons of state," complained Bakhtiar's widow bitterly. Those "reasons" may have included a tacit agreement among France, Switzerland, the German BND, and the NSA to spare Sarhadi in order to avoid producing captured transmissions and preserve the questionable secrecy surrounding the Crypto AG cipher manipulation program. It was not only the "rogue states" that were targeted. During the sensitive Anglo-Irish negotiations of 1985, the NSA's British counterpart, the GCHQ, was able to decipher the coded diplomatic traffic being sent between the Irish embassy in London and the Irish Foreign Ministry in Dublin. It was reported in the Irish press that Dublin had purchased a cryptographic system from Crypto AG worth more than a million Irish pounds. It was also reported that the NSA routinely monitored and deciphered the Irish diplomatic messages. Later, during the Falklands War, British GCHQ operators were able to decrypt classified Argentine message traffic because the Argentineans were using rigged Crypto AG cipher machines. Former British Foreign Office minister Ted Rowlands publicly stated that GCHQ had penetrated Argentine diplomatic codes. US: CRYPTO BULLY If it turns out that the extent of communications interception is as broad as suspected, the international implications are profound. Every country in the world that used secure communications is potentially affected. Some have sought to abandon Crypto AG, but found their options limited. The US had at times required purchase of specific machines as a condition for favors. Pakistan was allegedly granted American military credits with only one provision, that it buy its encryption equipment from Crypto AG. Additionally, "It is not unheard of for NSA to offer preferential export treatment to a company if it builds a back door into its equipment," says one person with long experience in the field. "I_ve seen it. I_ve been in the room." Several countries abandoned Crypto AG but failed to ensure secrecy. The Libyans switched to Gretag units after the NSA cited secret communications to allege Libyan involvement in the 1986 La Belle disco bombing in West Berlin. One senior US official said the fact that the Libyans were making their codes more difficult to crack would "make our job tougher." But the NSA seemed to have the Gretag base covered as well. According to one knowledgeable cryptographic industry expert, NSA's program to co-opt the services of encryption manufacturrs probably extends to all those within reach of NSA operatives. US cryptographic companies would be definite candidates for such participation. The NSA program also likely extends to companies in NATO and pro-US countries which have close relationships with GCHQ, NSA, and the BND. Even neutral countries_ firms are not off-limits to NSA manipulations. A former Crypto AG employee confirmed that high-level US officials approached neutral European countries and argued that their cooperation was essential to the Cold War struggle against the Soviets. The NSA allegedly received support from cryptographic companies Crypto AG and Gretag AG in Switzerland, Transvertex in Sweden, Nokia in Finland, and even newly-privatized firms in post-Communist Hungary. In 1970, according to a secret German BND intelligence paper, supplied to the author, the Germans planned to "fuse" the operations of three cryptographic firms-Crypto AG, Grattner AG (another Swiss cipher firm), and Ericsson of Sweden. Securocrats often turn to the boogeyman of "rogue" nations in order to justify the expense and ethical necessity of eavesdropping on all forms of international communication, but in reality many intercepts involve messages by neutral or allied nations. NSA's 1993 release of the World War II era "magic" intercepts under FOIA pressure revealed that US military intelligence read not only messages by Axis nations, but also intercepted and decrypted the top secret communications of Allied and neutral nations. Switzerland was among the more than 30 countries whose messages were being read. Since Swiss-made cipher machines were used by many governments at the time, it is likely that the US has been reading such messages for over half a century. An early example is the use of top secret intercepts by the US delegation to the 1945 founding convention of the United Nations in San Francisco. Fifty years of intercepted communication have given the US and its co-conspirators trade, diplomatic, economic and strategic advantages. By intercepting the "bottom line" negotiating positions of foreign governments, they have been able to shape international treaties and negotiations in their own favor: They will know, for example, the exact health status of the king of Saudi Arabia, the secret financial transactions of the president of Peru, the negotiating position of South Africa's trade delegation to the World Trade Organization, or the anti-abortion strategy of the Pope in the United Nations. Such information, presented daily to the president and the secretary of state in their intelligence briefings, is extremely useful and allows the US to play high-stakes diplomatic poker with a mirror behind everyone else's back.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 7 Re: RAMS - Cleanup The Corners From: Roger R. Prokic <rprokic@earthlink.net> Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 18:18:31 -0800 Fwd Date: Sun, 07 Feb 1999 14:00:17 -0500 Subject: Re: RAMS - Cleanup The Corners >Date: Sat, 06 Feb 1999 10:04:04 -0500 >To: "UFO UpDates Subscribers":; >From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: UFO UpDate: Re: RAMS - Cleanup The Corners >Date: Fri, 05 Feb 1999 22:15:45 -0600 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >From: Michael Christol <mchristo@mindspring.com> >Subject: Re: RAMS - Cleanup The Corners >>From: Roger R. Prokic <rprokic@earthlink.net> >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >>Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 15:16:43 -0800 >>Subject: Re: RAMS - Cleanup The Corners >>>The X-33 prototype was to be tested this month but was delayed >>>due to a fuel tank problem. It has it's own web site at: >>>http://www.venturestar.com/ >>The X-30 was called NASP (National Aerospace Plane). It was >>cancelled in the 1990 time frame. I don't recall the exact >>year. The X-33 is a different plane, called the VentureStar >>which is being designed and built by Lockheed Martin (Skunk >>Works & Astronautics). >Did they conclude that the project was too sophisticated for >them? The X-30, I am referring to... I believe it was cancelled due to its high cost during a yearly budget appropriations review in Congress. >Did they have trouble with the Engines which would operate as >any normal jet aircraft in the atmosphere and then switch to >rocket engines in space???? I don't know what the progress was on the engines back then. >I was so looking to a giant step forward in 'public' space >trasnsportation... >To me, the X-33 is just a glorified Space Shuttle, and still >not practicle for the average citizen. >It was my understanding that the space plane would take off at >any international air port in the USA and fly to suborbit or >orbit, then decend to land in Europe or somewhere else, in just >a matter of half an hour to an hour... >Yes, to say I am disappointed, is a given...sigh...just >once I would like to see them do something for the average >citizen where space flight is concurned. >At this pace, it will be another hundred years before you and I >can be a participating part of it... As long as Dan Goldin is in office, there's still hope. That guy has done more for NASA to satisfy the wishes of the public than all previous administrators combined. Roger
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 7 Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality From: Mark Cashman <mcashman@ix.netcom.com> Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 01:15:32 -0500 Fwd Date: Sun, 07 Feb 1999 14:01:09 -0500 Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality > From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com> > Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 09:44:20 EST > To: updates@globalserve.net > Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality (Enormous snip) > Let's not reject an idea simply because we find it unpleasant. My comments were not a "rejection" but simply a clarification of what I, personally, require as proof from psycho-social theories. Just as I require evidence to support pro-UFO hypotheses, I also require evidence to support anti-UFO hypotheses. And, in both cases, I am opposed to hypotheses which remain essentially unprovable. Statements which claim that the witness "might" have seen something in the media which suggested some feature of the case are, frankly, not hypotheses, because they are, as Kevin's discourse on the might-have-been's of the Schirmer case demonstrated, essentially unable to be proved or disproved. In addition, I attempted to indicate that there were a number of factors involved in memory which do not necessarily support such claims. Basically, the range of possible causes for UFO or abduction phenomena can run the gamut from 1) A fantasy, based on psychological needs, and perhaps grounded in existing cultural resources. 2) A real event, memories distorted by fear reaction. 3) A real event, memories embellished due to the psychological need of the witness. 4) A real event, but not at all related to the witness interpretation (i,.e. a misperception). 5) A real event with some aspects distorted, omitted, or added due to perceptual, cognitive, and emotional factors. 6) A real event, reported largely as it occurred, within the perceptual or cognitive limitations of the witness. In the above, except for (4) "real event" means what happened was substantially what was reported. As I mentioned in my post, opinion in the psychological community is divided as to the effect of trauma and fear on memory. I think that ignoring this, or calling it "convenient" for the witness completely misses the point. The point is "we don't know". Thus, we would be wise not to claim more certainty than existing information and experiment can provide. As an example, the claimed absence of helmets in more recent occupant cases. This assertion has been made many times, but I have yet to see substantial research confirming it. One must also consider the selection effects which might be present in any catalog used for such a purpose. I have been able to find helmet-wearing cases in recent times, such as 013 4 Feb 1973 KIMBA SA 2150hrs Secs Hunt/Finkler/Degnor/Inglis Four people, in three separate vehicles, reported seeing an orange object in a clearing on a deserted stretch of country road. A man, driving alone reported seeing an orange, rectangular shape on the side of the road. A young couple said they saw a three metre high by two metre wide rectangular shape. One of them said they saw a two metre tall "man" in a white space-suit floating in the middle of the rectangular shape. The other saw an orange rectangle with a white blob on top of it. Later, a semi-trailer driver reported to police that as he passed a clearing he noted what looked like an open doorway and a figure. The police checked the clearing by going there within an hour, but found nothing to account for the observations. There are also 1950s cases with no helmets: 021 1951 HALIDON SA Morning Mrs A was out with the dog rounding up cattle on a property. She saw an unusual object resting on 4 legs. Three figures floated down from underneath the object. They were described as normal adult height. Normal human facial features, with very clear, blue eyes. Their skin seemed smooth. Clothing was a tight fitting, silver coloured suit with silver boots and a hood over their heads. Some cases are ambiguous - were there helmets? 055 1975 Near COFFS HARBOUR NSW A woman, her daughter and a child in a car came across a lighted object on the road ahead. They slowed down and a group of some four to six entities with pointed heads and no discernible facial features, surrounded the car. A beam of light shone on the car. They drove away at speed. It is said that the woman received permanent damage to one of her eyes. (All cases from Basterfield's Australian Entity Catalog http://www.temporaldoorway.com/entweb.htm ) Hasty theorizing without testable hypotheses remains the bane of this field. Psycho-social hypotheses are not immune from the requirement that clear discriminators be provided and that observations be made to determine the status of the hypothesis. ------ Mark Cashman, creator of The Temporal Doorway at http://www.temporaldoorway.com - Original digital art, writing, and UFO research - UFO cases, analysis, classification systems, and more... http://www.temporaldoorway.com/ufo.htm
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 7 Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality From: Mark Cashman <mcashman@ix.netcom.com> Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 01:15:32 -0500 Fwd Date: Sun, 07 Feb 1999 14:06:42 -0500 Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com> >Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 09:44:20 EST >To: updates@globalserve.net >Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality (Enormous snip) >Let's not reject an idea simply because we find it unpleasant. My comments were not a "rejection" but simply a clarification of what I, personally, require as proof from psycho-social theories. Just as I require evidence to support pro-UFO hypotheses, I also require evidence to support anti-UFO hypotheses. And, in both cases, I am opposed to hypotheses which remain essentially unprovable. Statements which claim that the witness "might" have seen something in the media which suggested some feature of the case are, frankly, not hypotheses, because they are, as Kevin's discourse on the might-have-been's of the Schirmer case demonstrated, essentially unable to be proved or disproved. In addition, I attempted to indicate that there were a number of factors involved in memory which do not necessarily support such claims. Basically, the range of possible causes for UFO or abduction phenomena can run the gamut from 1) A fantasy, based on psychological needs, and perhaps grounded in existing cultural resources. 2) A real event, memories distorted by fear reaction. 3) A real event, memories embellished due to the psychological need of the witness. 4) A real event, but not at all related to the witness interpretation (i,.e. a misperception). 5) A real event with some aspects distorted, omitted, or added due to perceptual, cognitive, and emotional factors. 6) A real event, reported largely as it occurred, within the perceptual or cognitive limitations of the witness. In the above, except for (4) "real event" means what happened was substantially what was reported. As I mentioned in my post, opinion in the psychological community is divided as to the effect of trauma and fear on memory. I think that ignoring this, or calling it "convenient" for the witness completely misses the point. The point is "we don't know". Thus, we would be wise not to claim more certainty than existing information and experiment can provide. As an example, the claimed absence of helmets in more recent occupant cases. This assertion has been made many times, but I have yet to see substantial research confirming it. One must also consider the selection effects which might be present in any catalog used for such a purpose. I have been able to find helmet-wearing cases in recent times, such as 013 4 Feb 1973 KIMBA SA 2150hrs Secs Hunt/Finkler/Degnor/Inglis Four people, in three separate vehicles, reported seeing an orange object in a clearing on a deserted stretch of country road. A man, driving alone reported seeing an orange, rectangular shape on the side of the road. A young couple said they saw a three metre high by two metre wide rectangular shape. One of them said they saw a two metre tall "man" in a white space-suit floating in the middle of the rectangular shape. The other saw an orange rectangle with a white blob on top of it. Later, a semi-trailer driver reported to police that as he passed a clearing he noted what looked like an open doorway and a figure. The police checked the clearing by going there within an hour, but found nothing to account for the observations. There are also 1950s cases with no helmets: 021 1951 HALIDON SA Morning Mrs A was out with the dog rounding up cattle on a property. She saw an unusual object resting on 4 legs. Three figures floated down from underneath the object. They were described as normal adult height. Normal human facial features, with very clear, blue eyes. Their skin seemed smooth. Clothing was a tight fitting, silver coloured suit with silver boots and a hood over their heads. Some cases are ambiguous - were there helmets? 055 1975 Near COFFS HARBOUR NSW A woman, her daughter and a child in a car came across a lighted object on the road ahead. They slowed down and a group of some four to six entities with pointed heads and no discernible facial features, surrounded the car. A beam of light shone on the car. They drove away at speed. It is said that the woman received permanent damage to one of her eyes. All cases from Basterfield's Australian Entity Catalog http://www.temporaldoorway.com/entweb.htm Hasty theorizing without testable hypotheses remains the bane of this field. Psycho-social hypotheses are not immune from the requirement that clear discriminators be provided and that observations be made to determine the status of the hypothesis. ------ Mark Cashman, creator of The Temporal Doorway at http://www.temporaldoorway.com - Original digital art, writing, and UFO research - UFO cases, analysis, classification systems, and more... http://www.temporaldoorway.com/ufo.htm ------
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 7 BWW Media Alert 19990207 From: BufoCalvin@aol.com Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 09:54:14 EST Fwd Date: Sun, 07 Feb 1999 14:08:51 -0500 Subject: BWW Media Alert 19990207 Bufo Calvin P O Box 5231, Walnut Creek, CA 94596 Internet: BufoCalvin@aol.com Website: <A HREF="http://members.aol.com/bufocalvin">http://members.aol.com/bufo calvin<;/a> <A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/redirect-home/bufosweirdworld"> Link to Amazon.com</a> ALL RIGHTS RESERVED (permission is granted to reproduce or redistribute this edi tion of Bufo's WEIRD WORLD provided that attribution is made to http://members.a ol.com/bufocalvin. It is good etiquette to check with strangers before you e-mai l them something. If you forward this, please make sure it is clear that you ar e forwarding it). Bufo's WEIRD WORLD Media Alert Current Edition Bufo Calvin P O Box 5231, Walnut Creek, CA 94596 Internet: BufoCalvin@aol.com Website: <A HREF="http://members.aol.com/bufocalvin"> http://members.aol.com/bufocalvin<;/A> <A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/redirect-home/bufosweirdworld">Link to Amazon.com</A> ALL RIGHTS RESERVED (permission is granted to reproduce or redistribute this edition of Bufo's WEIRD WORLD provided that attribution is made to http://members.aol.com/bufocalvin. It is good etiquette to check with strangers before you e-mail them something. If you forward this, please make sure it is clear that you are forwarding it). February 7, 1999 Listed for the first time (I only list about two weeks out) is what may be one of the most significant network specials on UFOs and abduction. It's called CONFIRMATION: THE HARD EVIDENCE OF ALIENS AMONG US? (yes, NBC weaseled by using the question mark at the end). It's based on the book of the same name (although I believe the hard back didn't use the question mark, I think the paperback did...the paperback is <A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0312967047/bufosweirdworld"> Confirmation (paperback)</A>). Author of the book Whitley Strieber is also the co-Executive Producer of the special. Strieber's first book on the topic, <A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0380703882/bufosweirdworld">Commu nion (paperback)</A>, is a genre-transcending must-read that spent an amazing amount of time on the New York Times Bestseller list. He was lauded by much of ufology for mainstreaming the topic, but rejected by some because he would not embrace the extra-terrestrial hypothesis. Contrary to the way he was typically introduced on talk shows, he did not claim to be abducted by aliens (in the sense of physical beings that evolved on another planet). The first book was truly frightening in part because it did not come to neat and easy conclusions. The special will include video footage of an implant removal, police witnesses, etc. For more information, see the NBC press release at <A HREF="http://www.nbc.com/tvcentral/mms/frpv_specials.html">NBC Specials: Confirmation</A>. I'm working this week on my second monthly Weird World Watch for FATE (the first one will appear in the April issue according to current plans...name of the feature is not confirmed). I appreciate everyone who submitted weird happenings for the last one. If you are interested in contributing, please let me know. On to the listings: Times are generally Pacific. TELEVISION A&E Next Sunday, February 14, 3:00 PM, THE UNEXPLAINED: HAUNTINGS THE DISCOVERY CHANNEL Sunday, February 7, 12:30 PM, ROOTS OF EVIL (magic) Thursday, February 11, 9:00 PM, INSIDE AREA 51 Thursday, February 11, 10:00 PM, INTO THE UNKNOWN: UNKNOWN CREATURES Friday, February 12, 12:00 AM, INSIDE AREA 51 Friday, February 12, 1:00 AM, INTO THE UNKNOWN: UNKNOWN CREATURES Saturday, February 13, 2:00 PM, INTO THE UNKNOWN, UNKNOWN CREATURES Saturday, February 13, 5:00 PM, INSIDE AREA 51 Next Sunday, February 14, 12:30, ARTHUR C. CLARKE'S MYSTERIOUS UNIVERSE, STRANGE POWERS OF ANIMALS THE LEARNING CHANNEL Sunday, February 7, 1:00 PM, STRANGE SCIENCE: ODD SOUNDS (ringing rocks; ghosts; Taos hum, etc.) Sunday, February 7, 2:00 PM, STRANGE SCIENCE: UNUSAL PEOPLE (includes spontaneous human combustions, psychic artists) Sunday, February 7, 3:00 PM, STRANGE SCIENCE: MYSTERIOUS SKIES (includes UFOs) Sunday, February 7, 4:00 PM, STRANGE SCIENCE: WEIRD PLACES Sunday, February 7, 5:00 PM, STRANGE SCIENCE: BIZARRE PHENOMENA (includes stigmata) NBC Wednesday, February 17, 8:00 PM, CONFIRMATION: THE HARD EVIDENCE OF ALIENS AMONG US? THE SCIENCE CHANNEL The new schedule (since December 28, 1998) is weird programming for an hour each at 3:00 AM, 11:00 AM,and 7:00 PM. Alternating shows are: INTO THE UNKNOWN and ARTHUR C. CLARKE'S MYSTERIOUS UNIVERSE. They also run a Roswell show now every other week (it's probably the same show every time) at 4:00 AM and noon on Sundays. THE SCI-FI CHANNEL Tuesday, February 9, 11:00 AM, SIGHTINGS: EPISODE #4027 (UFO tape; psychic detective; alien autopsy; bigfoot) Wednesday, February 10, 11:00 AM, SIGHTINGS: EPISODE #4028 (psychic cop; Queen Mary ghosts) Thursday, February 11, 11:00 AM, SIGHTINGS: EPISODE #4029 (ghosts; Israeli UFOs; premonition) Friday, February 12, 11:00 AM, SIGHTINGS: EPISODE #4030 (life on Mars; Colorado haunting; Iranian UFOs) Tuesday, February 16, 11:00 AM, SIGHTINGS: EPISODE #4031 (multi-generational alien contact; Bigfoot museum; faith healer; Peru) Wednesday, February 17, 11:00 AM SIGHTINGS, EPISODE #4032: (Georgia UFO; psychic cop; haunting) Thursday, February 18, 11:00 AM SIGHTINGS: EPISODE #4033 (Oregon ghost train; alien autopsy; Tesla) Friday, February 19, 11:00 AM SIGHTINGS: EPISODE #4034 (jetliner and UFO; Nostradamus) SYNDICATED MONTEL WILLIAMS, Tuesday, February 9, psychic Sylvia Browne and talk of angels ___________________________ This is Bufo saying, "If =everything= seemed normal, that =would= be weird!" ____________________________
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 7 Re: Robert Todd On MJ-12 From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com> Date: Sun, 07 Feb 1999 07:39:05 -0600 Fwd Date: Sun, 07 Feb 1999 14:20:56 -0500 Subject: Re: Robert Todd On MJ-12 >From: Robert Todd <Bohica449@aol.com> >Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 21:06:32 EST >To: updates@globalserve.net >Subject: Re: Open Letter: MJ-12 & Dr. Wood >>From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net> >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >>Subject: Re: Open Letter: MJ-12 & Dr. Wood >>Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 22:47:55 -0400 >>>Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 07:22:17 -0800 (PST) >>>From: Rebecca Keith <xiannekei@yahoo.com> >>>Subject: Re: Open Letter: MJ-12 & Dr. Wood >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >>>>From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net> >>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >>>>Subject: Re: Open Letter: MJ-12 & Dr. Wood >>>>Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 08:45:27 -0400 <snipped unjustified and maniacal reliance on validity of physical records _altered_ to fit, and a few words from the lovely lady Rebecca> >Unfortunately, it is all too easy to create fake documents, >especially when the perpetrators have the raw materials in their >own filing cabinets, gathered from years of researching the >Roswell incident, as in the case of Moore, Shandera, and >Friedman. >Robert Todd Your clumsily veiled, and ham handed assertion that Stanton Friedman is a liar, cheat, and forger is not born out anywhere in thirty years of _his_ service, Mr. Todd. He truly questions the unquestionable while you merely amplify the importance of the essentially invalid, but contrary, minutia. He would be on the fronts of the inexplicable, running your gamut of cheap shots to touch truth on the _face_. You are content to man, merely, your ultimately _gullible_ and destructive gamut. Don't call Mr. Friedman a liar in _my_ presence, sir, when he is one of the few _I_ can turn to for calm rationality regarding the anomalous _you_ simply deny. The _idea_ that he conspired to contrive these documents is ludicrous, indigestible, and likely _covetous_ prattle! Reality does not come in the parsed and predictable little packets that you would prefer -- pard! The manipulated records do not contain the virtuous validity that you assign to them. There _is_ conspiracy. To suggest that there is _not_ is the TRUE lunacy! BOHICA? Bend over, here it comes again? In your two color dreams -- Mr. T! Try it and you, likely, never go back to your electric sheep. Get a new address, outlook, _and_ worldview! Lehmberg@snowhill.com -- Explore the Alien View! Ponder the Wit & Wisdom of Ching Chow! "Unstill Life" -- Animation . . . and more. http://www.fortunecity.com/roswell/arecibo/46/ <Updated 30 January> John Ford Restoration Fund -- Send your checks and money orders to _me_, Alfred Lehmberg (cut out the lawyers, they got their's) at: 304 Melbourne Drive, Enterprise AL, 36330. Strict records kept. "Only thin, _very light_ envelopes with a return address will be accepted <g>." ~~~ $250.00 pledged -- $150.00 collected ~~~ "I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see from afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, while burning at the fundamentalist's stake.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 7 MJ-12 Fiasco - Just Cause [Part 1] #13 (9/1987) From: Ed Stewart <ufoindex@jps.net> Date: Sun, 07 Feb 1999 07:41:08 -0800 Fwd Date: Sun, 07 Feb 1999 14:29:43 -0500 Subject: MJ-12 Fiasco - Just Cause [Part 1] #13 (9/1987) Excerpts from JUST CAUSE #13, New Series, September 1987 The MJ-12 Fiasco **************** We can now report to you that, regretably, the MJ-12 affair appears to be a grand deception and, consequently, a giant black eye on the face of UFOlogy. This conclusion did not come lightly and was the result of extensive inquiries by CAUS. We did have high hopes that perhaps our initial doubts, as reported in our last issue, would have been allayed by additional releases and that a proper explanation would be found for the problems. It was not to be. The deeper we looked, the worse it became. In dealing with government documents it is vitally important that we know where information comes from. Otherwise, how can one possibly vouch for it's authenticity. It is why CAUS regards cover letters from agency releases almost as important as the releases themselves. In the case of MJ-12, Moore, Shandera and Friedman (herein referred to as MSF) have not provided this most basic element. The material, save for the 1954 Cutler memo, was sent to Jaime Shandera anonymously on undeveloped 35mm film which was later made into hardcopy. Who is the source? MSF doesn't say. Where did it come from? They don't say that either. This by itself should raise suspicions, but there is much more. Why did Shandera receive the film? He is not exactly a well-known person in UFOlogy. We have a situation where a "government source" finds it important to release very sensitive, still-classified documents on crashed discs, Roswell, and alien bodies, certainly the story of the century! To whom does he go? Walter Cronkite? Dan Rather? Carl Sagan? No, he goes to MSF who are clearly in the pro-Roswell camp already and need no convincing. And they do have much to gain from these "documents" being made public. It sounds pretty self-serving that someone should anonymously drop proof of Roswell into the laps of only it's chief supporters and no one else who may have more influence in uncovering the "truth." Why, at the MUFON Symposium in June, did Moore declare that the burden of proof is on those suggesting a hoax (in front of a press conference) while saying in a Ft. Walton Beach, Florida newspaper that he has found no undeniable proof that the document is genuine? In a true scientific investigation the burden of proof is _always_ on the proponent to prove his case, not on the opponent to disprove. Why did MSF alter the appearance of the MJ-12 documents in their first release of the Focus newsletter without explanation? Whole sections were deleted, giving the appearance of government censorship, but actually was performed by MSF as they _later_ admitted. It smacked of a sensationalist technique to arouse interest. These are only minor quibbles over technique. The major problems follow. The Documents ************* The core of MSF's case lies in the documents which have been "released." These are what must survive scrutiny if we are to accept MJ-12 as genuine. Since we have described them in our previous issue, we will report on our study of the papers without extensive re-quoting. -- The "Project Aquarius" report - A three-page extract of a larger document with title page and two pages of text. Source and date are unknown and no other information is traceable. We direct your attention to the title page (Exhibit 1). You see in large print "EXECUTIVE CORRESPONDENCE" and below in typescript is "Executive Briefing." Looks impressive doesn't it? It implies an important presidential paper with the bold phrase "EXECUTIVE CORRESPONDENCE." However, there is a problem as you will see next. Exhibit 2 is a reproduction of a sample sheet of stationery with a clear, plastic cover that had accidentally been sent with an FOIA release to Robert Todd in 1979. The cover says "EXECUTIVE CORRESPONDENCE" at the top and on the bottom is says "DO NOT WRITE ON THIS COVER AS IT IS INTENDED FOR RE-USE. RETURN IT WITH THE FILE COPIES TO ORIGINATING OFFICE." It is a plastic file cover used internally by various agencies in transmitting and filing paperwork. The bottom portion of the cover takes away much of the presidential flavor of the top phrase. Now note Exhibit 1 again. While the plastic cover in Exhiabit 2 shows the top and bottom printing at the _very_ top and bottom, the Aquarius paper shows "EXECUTIVE CORRESPONDENCE" dropped down about an inch or so, resulting in the bottom phrase vanishing. We believe that this was a deliberate deception to give the paper an appearance of being presidential by moving the top wording downward to cause the more mundane bottom phrasing to disappear off the photocopy. The emblem on the cover of the Aquarius paper has more the appearance of being drawn on rather that printed on the page. A felt-tipped pen could have done just as well. Of the various projects mentioned on page 2 of the Aquarius text, one, "Pounce", has appeared in UFO history. It was said to be a proposal for investigating UFOs by Kirtland AFB, New Mexico, according to the CIA's 1953 Robertson Panel. No explanation of "Pounce" appears in the Aquarius paper. Additionally, "Project Sigma" in the Aquarius paper (said to be an Air Force effort to communicate with aliens) has been located in the massive, two-volume CODE NAME DIRECTORY by the Defense Marketing Services of Greenwich, Connecticut, 1986 edition. It is listed as a "Top Secret Air Force program involving Rockwell International." If the DMS "Sigma" is not the same as the Aquarius "Sigma," then Aquarius Sigma is probably wrong because duplication of code names in a close time frame is not within normal military procedure. Obviously, two programs with the same code name within the same branch of service (Air Force) would be confused. That's why selection lists of code names exist. If the two projects are the same, where is the massive security for Aquarius "Sigma" that it appears in a commercially available directory? Project Snowbird, in a previous issue of Just Cause, was described as a "Joint Army/Air Force peacetime military exercise in the sub-artic region, 1955," according to Gale Research's CODE NAMES DICTIONARY, 1963. No connection to UFOs is apparent here and certainly not in the context of the Aquarius paper's description. Snowbird was a training exercise for Army and Air Force units under arctic conditions. Finally, our last issue dealt with the short-lived confirmation of an Air Force "Project Aquarius" by the NSA. The revelation fizzled however when the NSA retracted its's confirmation based upon a false assumption. No other independent confirmation of the Project Aquarius document has been possible. -- The CIA "MJ-5" memo - A one-page document (Exhibit 3) on CIA letterhead, but not released through FOIA. Source and year of memo are unknown. Deletions by MSF. This document first appeared in Moore's newletter Focus. It has not appeared in any subsequent discussion of MJ-12. The MJ-5 memo is a real problem. Type style, placement of security markings, use of CIA letter stationery instead of internal forms and language are all atypical of CIA standards. The executive order number quoted in the memo is non-existant. The deletion by MSF of the year forbids accurate follow-up and implies an attempt to cover a deception. We were informed by MSF in a June phone conversation about various points in favor of MJ-12. When discussion focused upon the MJ-5 memo, we stated our concern over the flaws in this paper. A response from the CIA regarding the authenticity of the memo was entirely negative, the CIA labeling the memo a "poorly made fabrication." When informed of this, MSF's only response was, "You believe them?" Indeed we do if the statement agrees with what we can see with our own eyes! It is notable that MSF have let the memo quietly disappear from later presentations of evidence on MJ-12, even though, according to MSF's phone conversation, it came from the same source as the other documents. Why is this memo no longer being discussed? Suspicious as well is the similarity of the type style in the MJ-5 memo, written on CIA letterhead, and the Aquarius paper, written by the MJ-12 group. If the MJ-5 memo is no longer valid to present as evidence of MJ-12, and it came from the same source as the other documents, then what does this say about the Aquarius paper, or indeed the rest of the evidence? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Ed Stewart ufoindex@jps.net|So Man, who here seems principal alone, There Is Something |Perhaps acts second to some sphere unknown. Going On! ,>'?'<, |Touches some wheel, or verges to some goal, Salvador Freixedo ( O O ) |'Tis but a part we see, and not a whole. ---------------ooOO-(_)-OOoo------- Alexander Pope, Essay on Man -------
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 7 MJ-12 Fiasco - Just Cause [Part 2] #13 (9/1987) From: Ed Stewart <ufoindex@jps.net> Date: Sun, 07 Feb 1999 07:41:20 -0800 Fwd Date: Sun, 07 Feb 1999 14:32:21 -0500 Subject: MJ-12 Fiasco - Just Cause [Part 2] #13 (9/1987) Excerpts from JUST CAUSE #13, New Series, September 1987 --The 1954 Cutler memo - A one-page memo on carbon copy paper from Robert Cutler, Special Assistant to President Eisenhower, to General Nathan Twining. Source is the Air Force Intelligence filr group at the National Archives in Washington, D.C. The Cutler memo is the key document to MSF's case because it is the sole piece of MJ-12 evidence that could be traced to an official source. It this is genuine, then there was an MJ-12. As mentioned in our last Just Cause, problems arose early. In telephone conversations with Edward Reese of the Military Reference Branch of the National Archives, CAUS learned that while the memo was found in an Air Force Intelligence file box, several things were peculiar. 1) The security marking appeared in an unusual position, under the date instead of on the top and bottom of the page. 2) It was a carbon copy; u n signed and not the original. 3) It lacked the usual stamping, initials; etc. found on old documents. 4) It originally lacked a Top Secret register number, by which the document could be filed in a proper folder. Implication was that it was not part of the original file grouop released by the Air Force. More on #4. Reese said he received several request for the Cutler memo, probably as a result of an article by Bruce Maccabee in the November/December 1986 issue of the International UFO Reporter. The article by Maccabee was the earliest mention of the existence of the Cutler memo, presumably given to him by Moore. Reese was unable to locate the document until one of the requests (Reese couldn't remember who) iincluded the Top Secret register number of the file which contained the memo. Apparently sometime before, someone had gone through the box with the Cutler memo, recorded the register number of the file, then later submitted the request using the register number (T4-1846). Reese, finding the memo in the file, was puzzled that it lacked the number so assigned the file number to the document himself to allow it's re-location. Moore and Shandera said they were the first individuals to inspect the boxes in 1985. In fact, the release authority at the Archives, identified by the written notation on later copies (NND 857013), indicates the year of declassification (1985) and the case number (7013) for the entire file group, not just file T4-1846. Yet, Moore's copy of the memo indicates that it was released on 1/12/87. Questions arise! If the memo was found by Moore and Shandera in 1985, why do they present a copy released two years later? Did they not get a copy when it was found on site? How did the unknown phone caller know the register nummber unless he went through the file and why didn't he make a copy while there? Where is a copy of the memo with a dated release of 1985? The implication of this is that someone planted the memo before 1987 and set it up to be "officially" discovered and "officially" released by Archives personnel. Why no mention of it by MSF before this year when, as evidenced by our article in the December 1985 Just Cause, the topic was already public news and needed to be verified at that point? Why didn't MSF confide in us at that point when we would have helped? Reese also said that an Archives visitor, not Moore or Friedman, insisted that the memo be stamped with the official National Archives stamp on the front, contrary to Archives policy of stamping the backs of documents. This was certainly to guarantee the appearance of "officiality" when the memo is reproduced. Moore's first release of the memo is the front-stamped copy (Exhibit 8). In the file T4-1846 along with the Cutler memo is a withdrawl card for an "Air Inelligence Estimate 1/54." The original document was classified and dealt with Soviet aircraft. Question: Why would the Cutler memo be filed in the same folder with a document on a completely unrelated topic? Upon visiting the National Archives on June 25th, this editor had a chance to examine the Cutler memo original. It was in Box 189, Records Group 341, Entry 267. The box was virtually empty except for a few folders containing a small number of non-UFO documents and folders with withdrawal cards. The box had been carefully scanned before declassification and most of the files were removed and replaced with the cards. Question: How did the "Top Secret Restricted" Cutler memo escape the obviousl careful sanitizing of the box, though MJ-12 was supposed to be of extreme sensitivity? The memo itself was on delicate carbon coy, rice-type paper with the tyhping in blue carbon impression and a red slash through the security marking. The memo was remarkably clean looking with little sign of 33 years of wear and handling, except for a very slight age browning around the four edges. A watermark, "DICTATION ONION SKIN," could be read and in smaller, less distinct letters a word looking like "FOX," perhaps the manufacturer. Other marking was evident but entirely unreadable. Reese was in a quandry because, despite his suspicions about the memo, he had to treat it as genuine but, in lieu of a forger coming forward, it would be extremely difficult to prove. I suggested that the document be given an in-house analysis. The controversy was sure to increase and an analysis might answer some questions. Reese thought it was a good idea so with that I thanked him and left. While you are digesting this assault on your brain cells, Exhibit 9, coming from the Assistant Director of the Eisenhower Library, give that institute's conclusions on the Cutler memo and MJ-12. Finally, a "coup de grace" for the Cutler memo came from the Archives. Exhibit 10 is a disclaimer now being sent to requesters of the memo. It gives a 10-point list of reasons why they feel the Cutler memo "poses problems." The disclaimer is signed by the same individual who was quoted in MSF's press release of June 11th as initially believing that the memo was genuine, based on the simple fact that it was found at the Archives. -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Ed Stewart ufoindex@jps.net|So Man, who here seems principal alone, There Is Something |Perhaps acts second to some sphere unknown. Going On! ,>'?'<, |Touches some wheel, or verges to some goal, Salvador Freixedo ( O O ) |'Tis but a part we see, and not a whole. ---------------ooOO-(_)-OOoo------- Alexander Pope, Essay on Man -------
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 7 MJ-12 Fiasco - Just Cause [Part 3] #13 (9/1987) From: Ed Stewart <ufoindex@jps.net> Date: Sun, 07 Feb 1999 07:41:33 -0800 Fwd Date: Sun, 07 Feb 1999 14:42:42 -0500 Subject: MJ-12 Fiasco - Just Cause [Part 3] #13 (9/1987) Excerpts from JUST CAUSE #13, New Series, September 1987 Discussion ********** Pro-MJ-12 people have claimed that security is such at the National Archives that a hoax could not be perpetrated. This editor visited the Archives on June 25th with two file folders full of xeroxed government documents, this to aid in my research into other matters. I signed in at the desk, obtained a researcher's card and walked on in without anyone so much as peeking at my folders. I spent 45 minutes with Mr. Reese while there, chatting about Mj-12 and UFOs. During that time I had ample opportunity to plant or steal documents while Reese was fielding phone calls. After our discussion I left with a manila envelope that Reese kindly provided for my folders full of documents. I went down to the desk at ground level, signed out and left. Again not so much as a look at my envelope. So much for massive security! It would have been easy, had I been so inclined, to plant a single page hidden on my person into a folder. The last I heard the National Archives was not doing a strip search of every patron! Reese had admitted that there was no way to prevent some "seeding" or thefts, that they just didn't have that kind of security. A recent news story revealed the theft of historic documents from the Archives by an art historian, something Reese told me about well before it ever became news. MSF's press release of June 11th makes several interesting comments. Acknowledging that they ar not in a position to endorse the authenticity of the documents, MSF say, nevertheless, that they _appear_ to be genuine and that "nothing has surfaced during the course of our research which would seem to suggest otherwise." They also state that a "detailed and exhaustive study" has been underway since December 1984. In that two-year study how is it that MSF managed to avoid the negative comments of various agencies and libraries relative to the authenticity of MJ-12? The Truman and Eisenhower libraries would be among the first sources to contact since the key documents came from those administrations. Either MSF contacted those sources, received positive replies, and for some strange reason are withholding results that would help prove their case, or MSF received negative replies and, as such, are misinforming the public in their press release that _nothing_ was found casting doubt on the affair. Or MSF did not contact them at all, laying waste to their claim of a detailed and exhaustive study over two years. Actually a "Majestic" project was found at the Archives but was nothing more than an emergency was plan drafted in 1952. No connection to MJ-12 is at all evident. MSF's sole support from an expert at the National Archives was a quote in the London Observer by archivist Jo Ann Williamson on May 31, 1987 (MSF Press Release, June 11, 1987, pg. 3), when the story was forced into the spotlight by Timothy Good's new book ABOVE TOP SECRET. This support did not develop during the two-year stud y but only after it hit the press. And, as slim as it was, it was demolished by Williamson herself in the July 22, 1987, National Archives MJ-12 disclaimer. It would now be a good idea for MSF to publish all the evidence of the exhaustive, two-year study, which they claim totally supports MJ-12, very soon as the story is under considerable assault. It is also time to see the additional portion of MSF's infromation; the things that they have publicly stated as having in hand relative to MJ-12. This information is, by their words, far more sensational than what has already been released. MSF wants a scientific investigation into MJ-12, but have yet to open the book fully on what broadcaster Paul Haravey calls the "rest of the story." Where are those photographs and video tape? Why haven't recent press releases by MSF discussed the "MJ-5" memo and the Aquarius report? Where is the President Carter briefing paper? Let us hear a little more about "EBEs" and the "Highs?" Wh know MSF have this information and it certainly would be a revelation if what we hear about these things turns out to be true. Why are MSF playing "Project Blue Book" and not releasing the meat? A DISTURBING REVELATION *********************** Now that we know the MJ-12 story is severely flawed, what is the source of this information? Since MSF aren't talking about their sources, we've discovered several things which we think point in the right direction. 1) In 1984, Linda Moulton Howe, who produced the well-known cattle mutilation film STRANGE HARVEST, was contacted by a government source to aid in producing a UFO documentary, essentially providing an answer to UFOs. She was invited by the source, briefed on the story, then sworn to secrecy about it until the film's eventual release. The deal was never completed. Details of the story given to her match the MJ-12 tale, along with much extra detail about contacts with "EBEs" (see MJ-12 Briefing Paper), Nordic-type aliens called "Highs" and conflicting alien factions. 2) In March 1986, UFO lecturer and research Robert Hastings visited with Ddr. Paul Bennewitz of the Kirtland 1980 sightings (see CLEAR INTENT, Epilog) at his home in Albuquerque, New Mexico, very close to Kirtland AFB. During the interview Hastings reported that Bennewitz used the phrase "Extraterrestrial Biological Entities" to describe the aliens in his UFO activities. The phrase is identical to thje MJ-12 Briefing Paper's description of aliens and came a full year before the public release of the MSF papers. How did Bennewitz know this phrase without having been told by someone? 3) CAUS Director, Peter Gersten, in a visit with a military intelligence source at Kirtland AFB in 1983, was informed of a wide range of bizarre UFO stories. Included were comments on a briefing paper on UFOs for President Carter, the Cash/Landrum UFO being a government exploitation of UFO technology (something Bennewitz has claimed as well), Bill Moore being "right on" with Roswell, and an admission that they original Project Aquarius cable (see CAUS Bulletin, December 1985) on Bennewitz and his UFO photos was "retyped" and not an original cable. This cable was the first mention anywhere of MJ-12 and Project Aquarius. What links these three incidents together? - Linda Howe's source was Air Force OSI Special Agent Richard Doty. - Peter Gersten's interview was with OSI Special Agent Richard Doty. - Bennewitz was the subject of OSI Special Agent Richard Doty's investigation of the 1980 Kirtland AFB, N.M., UFO sightings and the two maintained contact thereafter. Consider also that William Moore has been associated with Doty from the time after the original Kirtland sightings in 1980. Doty's home base, Kirtland, is noted several times in the various MSF papers. Doty knew details of MJ-12 before the December 1984 recveipt by MSF of the newly-publicized papers, as evidenced above. Doty was the OSI agent on duty at Ellsworth AFB, South Dakota during the period of the November 1977, Ellsworth hoaxed _Incident Report_ in which UFO aliens were said to engage in a gun battle with Ellsworth security guards. This from Doty himself to Peter Gersten in 1983. Question: Is Ricvhard Doty Moore's source for much of the information we are now seeing? We think it is a virtual certainty! We are also convinced of Doty's involvement in the notorius "Craig Weitzel" hoax letter, which we can discuss sometime in the future. As a result of all this, we are now forced to reassess the credibility of the now-famous OSI report on the 1980 Kirtland UFO sightings, authored in part by Doty. We had reproduced this as a late entry in CLEAR INTENT (Epilog). FINAL WORD ********** UFOlogists' comments on MJ-12 have been to the effect that there is no evidence conclusively _disproving_ MJ-12, when they should be saying that there is no evidence conclusively _proving_ MJ-12. What has happened to critical thinking on this affair? This is the bottom line in any scientuific or legal investigation. Questions must be answered concisely and completely to satisfy the rules of evidence. A claim must be solidly supported by an interlocking network of facts leading to a logical conclusion. In this case - we have a mess! Our comments in this article are strictly limited to the MJ-12 documents and associated events of the last few years. We are making no commment or conclusion on the Roswell incident itself. Something crashed there in July 1947. We don't know what. We weren't there! But in any argument about the incident, it must be _conclusively_ proven that a "spaceship" with aliens, or whatever, came down. Therefore, we do not regard the MSF documents as convincing proof of the MJ-12 group or the Roswell crash. There are too many hard questions which haven't been answered effectively and MSF's explanatuions, or in somne cases excuses, are nowhere near being decisive. Friedman has used the phrase, "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence!" in his defense of MJ-12. But neither is it proof of existence! To us, MJ-12 is a case of, "You've got to believe it to see it!" ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Ed Stewart ufoindex@jps.net|So Man, who here seems principal alone, There Is Something |Perhaps acts second to some sphere unknown. Going On! ,>'?'<, |Touches some wheel, or verges to some goal, Salvador Freixedo ( O O ) |'Tis but a part we see, and not a whole. ---------------ooOO-(_)-OOoo------- Alexander Pope, Essay on Man -------
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 7 MJ-12 Fiasco - Just Cause [Part 4] #13 (9/1987) From: Ed Stewart <ufoindex@jps.net> Date: Sun, 07 Feb 1999 07:41:46 -0800 Fwd Date: Sun, 07 Feb 1999 14:56:26 -0500 Subject: MJ-12 Fiasco - Just Cause [Part 4] #13 (9/1987) Excerpts from JUST CAUSE #13, New Series, September 1987 EXHIBIT 4 Dwight D. Eisenhower Library Abilene, Kansas 67410 August 7, 1987 [recipient's address] Dear Mr. Greenwood: This is in response to your letter of July 26. The staff of the Eisenhower Library has been unable to locate any record in our holdings of the briefing document dated November 18, 1952 or of the Majestic or MJ-12 operation. We have not located any documents with the MAJIC code word on them nor have we seen any evidence that a "Majestic-12 clearance level" ever existed during the Eisenhower Administration. Since the document was drawn up by the Truman Administration, rather than the Eisenhower, we really do not have the resources at hand to fully research and anlyze this paper. If you are interested in personally checking the national security materials in our manuscript collections for information on this alleged project, please let us know, and we will be happy to provide you with a research application and additional information on our facility. Sincerely, MARTIN M. TEASLEY Assistant Director -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Ed Stewart ufoindex@jps.net|So Man, who here seems principal alone, There Is Something |Perhaps acts second to some sphere unknown. Going On! ,>'?'<, |Touches some wheel, or verges to some goal, Salvador Freixedo ( O O ) |'Tis but a part we see, and not a whole. ---------------ooOO-(_)-OOoo------- Alexander Pope, Essay on Man -------
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 7 MJ-12 Fiasco - Just Cause [Part 5] #13 (9/1987) From: Ed Stewart <ufoindex@jps.net> Date: Sun, 07 Feb 1999 07:42:05 -0800 Fwd Date: Sun, 07 Feb 1999 14:56:45 -0500 Subject: MJ-12 Fiasco - Just Cause [Part 5] #13 (9/1987) Excerpts from JUST CAUSE #13, New Series, September 1987 EXHIBIT 6 Harry S. Truman Library Independence, Missouri 64050 August 4, 1987 [recipient address] Dear Mr. Greenwood: Thank you for your letter of July 26, 1987 with enclosures. The document you enclosed, allegedly a memorandum from President Truman to Secretary of Defense Forrestal, dated September 24, 1947, is not in our files. We have consulted with the Modern Military Records Division in the National Archives and the Eisenhower Library regarding all of these alleged "Majestic 12" documents and have taken a common position with them that we cannot authenticate any copies of documents, when we do not have the originals in our custody. Also, there is apparently no declassification stamp on this document as required by law and Government regulations, if it is actually a copy of an original document that was declassified. We hope this information is helpful to you. Sincerely, BENEDICT K. ZOBRIST Director -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Ed Stewart ufoindex@jps.net|So Man, who here seems principal alone, There Is Something |Perhaps acts second to some sphere unknown. Going On! ,>'?'<, |Touches some wheel, or verges to some goal, Salvador Freixedo ( O O ) |'Tis but a part we see, and not a whole. ---------------ooOO-(_)-OOoo------- Alexander Pope, Essay on Man -------
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 7 MJ-12 Fiasco - Just Cause [Part 6] #13 (9/1987) From: Ed Stewart <ufoindex@jps.net> Date: Sun, 07 Feb 1999 07:42:09 -0800 Fwd Date: Sun, 07 Feb 1999 14:57:54 -0500 Subject: MJ-12 Fiasco - Just Cause [Part 6] #13 (9/1987) Excerpts from JUST CAUSE #13, New Series, September 1987 EXHIBIT 9 Dwight D. Eisenhower Library Abilene, Kansas 67410 July 13, 1987 [recipient address] Dear Mr. Todd: This is in response to your letter of June 30. Our reasons for questioning the authenticity of the July 14, 1954 memorandum from Robert Cutler to General Twining are as follows: 1. President Eisenhower's Appointment Books contan no entry for a special meeting on July 16, 1954 which might have included a briefing on MJ-12. Even when the President had "Off the Record" meetings, the Appointment Books contain entries indicating the times of the meetings and the participants. 2. The classification marking on this memorandum is one we have never seen on an Eisenhower Administration document. "Top Secret" and "Restricted" are two different levels of classification. There neither is, nor ever was, a classification level known as "Top Secret Restricted." The use of "Restricted" as a classification marking was discontinued in November 1953. 3. The Declassification Office of the National Security Council has informed us that it has no record of any declassification action having been taken on this memorandum or on any other documents on this alleged project. 4. No additional documentation on MJ-12 has been located at either the National Archives or the Eisenhower Library. 5. Finally, Robert Cutler, at the direction of President Eisenhower, was visiting overseas military installations on the day he supposedly issued this memorandum--July14, 1954. The Administration Series in Eisenhower's Papers as President contains Cutler's memorandum and report to the President upon his return from the trip. The memorandum is dated July 20, 1954 and refers to Cutler's visits to installations in Europe and North Africa between July 3 and July 15. Furthermore, Cutler's name does not appear on the roster for the regular NSC jmeeting of July 15. Also, within the NSC Staff Papeers is a memorandum dated July 3, 1954 from Cutler to his two subordinates, James S. Lay and J. Patrick Coyne, explaining how they should handle NSC administrative matters during his absence; one would assume that if the memorandum to Twining were genuine, Lay or Coyne would have signed it. We are enclosing, free of charge, copies of the July 14, 1954 purported memorandum from Cutler to Twining, the July 3, 1954 memorandum from Cutler to Lay and Coyne, and the July 20, 1954 memorandum from Cutler to the President. If we can be of further assistance, please let us know. Sincerely, MARTIN M. TEASLEY Assistant Director Enclosures
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 7 MJ-12 Fiasco - Just Cause [Part 7] #13 (9/1987) From: Ed Stewart <ufoindex@jps.net> Date: Sun, 07 Feb 1999 08:01:17 -0800 Fwd Date: Sun, 07 Feb 1999 15:01:19 -0500 Subject: MJ-12 Fiasco - Just Cause [Part 7] #13 (9/1987) Excerpts from JUST CAUSE #13, New Series, September 1987 EXHIBIT 10 National Archives Washington, DC 20408 Date : July 22, 1987 Reply to Attn of : Military Reference Branch Subject : Reference Report on MJ-12 To : The Record The National Archives has received many requests for documentation and information about "Project MJ-12". Many of the inquiries concern a memorandum from Robert Cutler to General Nathan Twining, dated July 14, 1954. This particular document poses problems for the following reasons: 1. The document was located in Record Group 341, entry 267. The series is filed by a top Secret register number. This document does not bear such a number. 2. The document is filed in the folder T4-1846. There are no other documents in the folder regarding "NSC/MJ-12". 3. The Military Reference Branch (Edward Reese) has conducted a search in the records of the Secretary of Defense, the Joint Chiefs of Staff, Headquarters US Air Force, and in other related files. No further information has been found on this subject. 4. Inquiries to the US Air Force, the Joint Chiefs of Staff, and the National Security Council failed to produce further information. 5. The Acting Director of the Freedom of Information Office of the National Security Council informed us that "Top Secret Restricted Information" is a marking which did not come into use at the National Security Council until the Nixon Administration. The Eisenhower Presidential Library also confirms that this particular marking was not used during the Eisenhower Administration. 6. The document in question does not bear an official government letterhead or watermark. The NARA conservation specialist (Mary Ritzenthaler) examined the paper and determined it was a ribbon copy prepared on "dictation onionskin". The Eisenhower Library has examined its collection of the Cutler papers. All documents created by Mr. Cutler while he served on the NSC Staff have an eagle watermark in the onionskin carbon paper. Most documents sent out by the NSC were prepared on White House Letterhead paper. For the brief period when Mr. Cutler left the NSC, his carbon copies were prepared on "prestige onionskin". 7. The Judicial, Fiscal, and Social Branch searched the Official Meeting Minute Files of the National Security Council and found no record of a NSC meeting on July 16, 1954. A search of all NSC Meeting Minutes for July 1954 found no mention of MJ-12 nor Majestic. 8. The Judicial, Fiscal, and Social Branch (Mary Ronan) searched the indices of the NSC records and found no listing for: MJ-12, Majestic, Unidentified flying objects, UFO, flying saucers, or flying discs. 9. The Judicial, Fiscal, and Social Branch (Mary Ronan) found a memo in a folder titled "Special Meeting July 16, 1954" which indicated that NSC members would be called to a civil defense exercise on July 16, 1954. 10. The Eisenhower Library states, in a letter to NNMR, dated July 16, 1987: "President Eisenhower's Appointment Books contain no entry for a special meeting on July 16, 1954 which might have included a briefing on MJ-12. Even when the President had 'off the record' meetings, the Appointment Books contain entries indicating the time of the meeting and the participants... The Declassification Office of the National Security Council has informed us that it has no record of any declassification action having been taken on this memorandum or any other documents on this alleged project... Robert Cutler, at the direction of President Eisenhower, was visiting overseas military installations on the day he supposedly issued this memorandum --- July 14, 1954. The administration Series in Eisenhower's Papers as President contains Cutler's memorandum and report to the President upon his return from the trip. The memorandum is dated July 20, 1954 and refers to Cutler's visits to installations in Europe and North Africa between July 3 and 15. Also, within the NSC Staff Papers is a memorandum dated July 3, 1954, from Cutler to his two subordinates, James S. Lay and J. Patrick Coyne, explaining how they should handle NSC administrative matters during his absence; one would assume that if the memorandum to Twining were genuine, Lay or Coyne would have signed it." JO ANN WILLIAMSON Chief, Military Reference Branch Military Archives Division -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Ed Stewart ufoindex@jps.net|So Man, who here seems principal alone, There Is Something |Perhaps acts second to some sphere unknown. Going On! ,>'?'<, |Touches some wheel, or verges to some goal, Salvador Freixedo ( O O ) |'Tis but a part we see, and not a whole. ---------------ooOO-(_)-OOoo------- Alexander Pope, Essay on Man -------
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 7 Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com> Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 12:04:48 EST Fwd Date: Sun, 07 Feb 1999 15:05:54 -0500 Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 22:02:15 -0500 >>From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com> >>Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 09:44:20 EST >>To: updates@globalserve.net >>Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >>Given the timing, I did try to find out when Mars Needs Women >>was circulated in the Midwest by reading the newspaper ads in >>1966. Given the promotion of films in that era, that is, large >>newspaper ads when the films changed (usually in midweek), it is >>possible that Schirmer didn't see the movie, but saw the ads. >>And how do you prove that a particular presentation wasn't >>available to a specific witness? In this case, it is possible >>that Schirmer didn't see the movie and could tell us that he >>didn't see it. But, does that mean he didn't see the ads for it >>in the newspaper? That he didn't walk by the theater and see the >>posters out front displaying the Martians and their headgear? >>Could it be that he noticed something from the pop culture that, >>for some reason, stuck in his mind and then, under the influence >>of hypnosis, recalled that detail? >But this is exactly the problem, Kevin, as Jerry and Mark and I >keep pointing out. Questions like these can always be asked. >You're demonstrating that there's no way to falsify any argument >that Herb Schirmer got his alien from the move you cite. And >since there's no way to falsify it, how can the claim be proved? >(And no -- I'm not saying pop culture has no influence. I'm >saying that it's hard to pin most UFO events to any particular >pop-culture stimulus.) Then we seem to be in agreement. Pop culture can influence the UFO phenomena, which is all I was saying. No, we can't falsify the argument, which is what I was saying. That was it. Not that Schirmer saw Mars Needs Women, or that he saw the ads, only, in that time frame, the movie was out, and the alien he drew resembles the aliens from the movie. An interesting coincidence, but that's why they call them coincidences. >To put it differently -- what would convince you that Schirmer >_didn't_ get his alien from the movie? That is, what would >convince you apart from a completely different description of >the alien? You have to grant, I hope you'll agree, at least the >slight possibility that somebody might genuinely meet an alien >resembling one in a movie. So, given that possibility, what >would convince you that there wasn't any media influence? (Short >of Schirmer having been raised by wolves, so he never saw any >movies, movie trailers, ads for movies, or anything else in our >culture.) I never said that Schirmer got his inspiration from the movie, only that he could have. I never said that I was convinced that this was the source of his alien description, only that it could be. >There's an additional problem with all of this that just occured >to me, courtesy of Peter Brookesmith, who helpfully posted >Martin Kottmeyer's article on similar details in abduction >cases. Kottmeyer points out that, in the cases he's discussing, >the alleged similarities aren't as apparent to him as they were >to John Carpenter and other abduction investigators. Some, in >his not unconvincing view, required a leap of faith. >Isn't it interesting, then, that Kottmeyer has argued more >strongly and in more detail than anyone else for the influence >of media on abduction narratives? He must spend half his life >reading ancient science fiction comics, and seeing wonderfully >bad old monster movies. Give him an abduction story, and he'll >find something resembling it somewhere in a movie my video store >hasn't even heard of. >What he doesn't seem to understand is that -- just as with the >abduction details he dissects -- many of these resemblances are >matters of opinion. Abduction aliens have big eyes; aliens in a >movie he's seen have big eyes; the big eyes in fact look quite >different in the two cases, but that doesn't seem to bother >Kottmeyer a bit. He has a double standard, in other words. When >he's looking at abduction details, such differences matter a lot >to him; when he's arguing for media influence on abduction >accounts, the differences don't register. >To return to you, Kevin, my point here is that there _are_ >substantial differences -- both in specific details and in the >larger context in which images appear -- between the science >fiction movies you and Kottmeyer cite (not that I'm saying you >and he always think alike). Again, I'm not denying that media >influence abductees or anyone else. But media influence isn't >random, and can't -- at least not if we want to be at all >scientific -- be invoked as some catch-all explanation. Social >scientists (notably absent from this debate about abduction >imagery) need to specify the rules that media influence might >follow, before we can responsibly say that media influenced >anything in particular, unless the _causal_ connection (as >opposed to mere resemblance) is absolutely obvious. While Kottmeyer might be saying this, it is not a theory to which I subscribe. My point has always been that pop culture does exert influences on us every day and if we are going to understand abductions we cannot simply reject this idea. We can see many parallels between abductions and the pop culture, (many of them in well known movies easily obtainable in a video store). But, as you point out, these similarities might be the result of coincidence and can be viewed as circumstantial. They might not even be relevant. However, there is, at least, one way to check. It would seem to me that if we had a database of abductions of sufficient size with the proper descriptions (or better yet, drawings of the aliens), then we could review it searching for "spikes" in specific descriptions. Using Schirmer again, what if we found that no one had reported the specific descriptive features until after Mars Needs Women came out. We then find a drop off in those kinds of reports until Ralph Blum's book came out. This would suggest there might be a causal relation between these reports and the cultural influences. If, on the other hand, there are no such jumps, then the probability is that this specific stimuli had no effect on the reporting of alien abduction. Yes, I can think of other examples. How about a sudden increase in reports of nasal implants after Arnold Schwarzenegger pulled one out of his nose in Total Recall? No, I am not suggesting that the tales of nasal implants came from the movie, only that if we had a database that was large enough, we could then research it to find out if there was a sudden increase in such reports. Or, let's talk about Star Trek II, in which insects are put into the ears of two Enterprise officers. How many of us heard stories about insects crawling into people's ears right after that movie was released? >Example of an obvious connection, courtesy of Philip Klass: An >article about Bigfoot appears in the Washington Post, and >immediately afterward people report 'bigfoot' sightings right in >the DC area. (Were they confusing Washington, DC with Washington >State?) >One reason I'm not impressed by arguments for media influence is >that the core of the reported abduction experience isn't in any >science fiction I remember reading (and I read it voraciously >for many years). That is, you can find details here and there, >but the _entire_ picture -- shadowy aliens that come at night, >take people from their beds, whisk them up to UFOs, never tell >them why and frighten them by depriving them of all control, >perform medical examinations, and make women pregnant -- can't >be found in any science fiction narrative I've read or heard of. So, let me turn this around out you? What would it take for you to become "impressed" that elements of abduction could be found in science fiction? <snip> >You can find details in the abduction phenomenon that correspond >to things (often pretty obscure) in science fiction. But can you >find any familiar science fiction source that directly spawned >the whole abduction narrative, the way Anne Rice spawned vampire >cults? Greg, I'm not sure that you're being fair with your continual suggestion that these things are "often pretty obscure." That, however, is another argument. The real point is that I have not suggested that pop culture "spawned the whole abduction" narrative. I have suggested that we can see some parallels, and those parallels should be investigated before they are so casually dismissed. Nor have I suggested that the whole of the abduction phenomena can be explained by pop culture. My point, lost so often, is simply that pop culture influences our lives in many ways, and if we are to understand abduction, we should try to understand the influence of pop culture. Since this avenue of investigation has not been properly explored, I merely suggest it should be. Who knows what we might learn? KRandle
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 7 Of Spirits And Wider Reality In Sedona From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@get2net.dk> Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 19:16:23 +0100 (MET) Fwd Date: Sun, 07 Feb 1999 15:16:00 -0500 Subject: Of Spirits And Wider Reality In Sedona [List only] Source: The Boston Globe http://www.boston.com/dailyglobe2/038/nation/Of_spiri ts_and_wider_reality_in_Arizona+.shtml Stig *** Of spirits and wider reality in Arizona By Leo W. Banks, Globe Correspondent, 02/07/99 ** SEDONA, Ariz. - The UFO gift shop, Starport Sedona, is buzzing this morning. Over here is a conversation between two middle-aged women, each detailing her own tale of abduction by space aliens. Over there is a silver-haired fellow, apparently of considerable means, studying a wall map pinned with the latest UFO sightings. Down on Main Street, leaflets posted everywhere tout come-ons from psychics, pyramid builders, angels, and a bearded fellow named Joa, who promises to read your soul for $1.25 a minute. "We live in the land of the woo-woos," said Thom Stanley, editor of Sedona Excentric, a monthly publication that pokes fun at things New Age. "We started this newspaper because we'd go into restaurants and bars and everybody was talking about crystal crunchers. But nobody was writing about them." Before 1989, Sedona could not have supported a publication like Stanley's. Then, the town was little more than a pretty village in central Arizona's red rock country, a gas and gift stop populated by well-off retirees and artists. Now, it's a six-stoplight tourist mecca that attracts 4 million visitors a year, many drawn by a belief in the concept of a vortex, a place in the Earth said to emit healing energy. New Agers say that four such vortexes exist in the area, and that they make it easier for humans to communicate with spirits, to get in touch with dead relatives, or to find their own past lives. But Sedona's crystal revolution hasn't been all insight and inner peace. Some of those who have hung out spiritual shingles are on the distant fringe of reality. Robert Shapiro, who describes himself as a trance channeler, teaches expanded perception, and claims to have instructed a young woman how to become invisible so she could visit her lover in prison. This summer, visitors might have attended a seminar by Gabriel of Sedona. If you can understand the topics covered, you probably did not need to attend. They included: planetary divine administration, complementary relationships among ascending sons and daughters, ascension science and inter-universal physics, and the repercussions of the Lucifer Rebellion. The seminar closed with a chat by the Bright and Morning Star of Salvington, head administrator of our universe. Many locals are not enamored of the reputation Sedona has earned, and they see other down sides to Sedona's popularity. "The only vortex I ever felt was all the money being sucked out of my wallet," says painter Rand Carlson, who lived in Sedona for two years before returning to Tucson. Spiritual living is costly. Because the rents paid by shop owners are so high, the price of goods is high as well. Even food shopping is affected. Some residents, including the retired writer Alan Caillou, drive to a neighboring town for groceries. "You can't buy a sweater in Sedona for less than $150," Caillou said. "I drive to the Wal-Mart in Cottonwood and get a sweatshirt for $30. Sedona's economy is either Mercedes rich or back-breakingly poor. High housing costs force workers to live elsewhere. Waitresses, maids, and store clerks, whose standard wage is around $7 an hour, cannot afford to buy or rent here. They live in apartments and trailers in Cottonwood, 18 miles from Sedona, and Cornville, 12 miles away. The Chamber of Commerce president, Frank Miller, says that growth - a modest 2 to 3 percent a year - would run higher, except that the US Forest Service controls much of the land surrounding Sedona. Even so, development is a divisive issue, and it is not the construction of homes on acre lots that causes the upset. It is the boom in time-sharing apartments, in which buyers purchase one week a year for the privilege of living among the red rocks. "Time shares are freaking everybody out," Stanley said. "Instead of one home and two cars on the lot, you've got 150 people and 150 cars." And traffic. Although refugees from such cities as Los Angeles and Boston chuckle at the grousing about congestion, longtime Sedonans are horrified by it. The joke here is that old people have to shop one side of Highway 89 one day, and the other side the next because the traffic is so bad they can't get across. Blaming the New Agers for Sedona's problems happens in part because they are a handy scapegoat, and because the two have been inextricably tied. The publicity the town receives, in travel magazines and on television, invariably portrays it as a Shangri-la for the soul. The CBS News program "48 Hours" aired a segment on Sedona in which fairies were discovered inside buildings. Producers also found a real estate agent who checks to make sure that the aura of a home matches that of the buyer. Such publicity brings visitors who buy the pitch. The chamber, which used to ignore the New Age influence, has given in to it and now trumpets "mystical Sedona" on its Web site. Even Gabriel of Sedona, who runs a compound populated by followers who think he's god, is a dues-paying member of the Chamber. "People who snickered at the vortexes are now painting their Jeeps in dazzling colors," said a resident, Jim Bishop. "I think more people are selling the New Age here than living it, to be honest." Those who do live it are raising angry hackles. The Forest Service in particular isn't thrilled by the unauthorized use of its land for religious ceremonies. An example is the construction of medicine wheels on federal property. These large circles of loosely stacked rocks are considered symbols of the Earth's energy and a focal point for meditation and prayer. But the Forest Service says that disturbing natural features of the landscape is illegal and constitutes vandalism. The latest craze is burying crystal at prehistoric rock art sites, or leaving blue cornmeal as an offering to the Earth - both illegal if the site is designated an archeological dig. "A lot of them don't follow leave-no-trace practices," said Bill Stafford, a Forest official in Sedona. "But that's everybody, not just New Agers. We have worse problems with litter and people driving helter-skelter with four-by-fours." Pete A. Sanders Jr., an informal spokesman for spiritual Sedona, believes in vortex power, based on his studies of physics while a student at MIT, from which he graduated in 1972. He has taught medicine wheel etiquette to New Age pilgrims, and he recommends that rather than disturb the landscape, they build wheels in their minds. Sanders says he's troubled by New Agers out to make a buck, and those who "enslave people as devotees." But he also believes that elements within the Forest Service and the town at large are prejudiced against New Agers. "I don't support all the things people here believe," said Sanders, author of four books, including "You Are Psychic." "But I allow people to have their own beliefs. People come here on spiritual pilgimages the same way they go to Mecca or Lourdes." But others are bothered by the use of Native American ceremonies by New Age adherents. Medicine wheels are not a product of Navajo or Hopi cultures, and the sweat lodges that operate in Sedona are not run by legitimate medicine men. What happens at these rituals often has only passing connection to any real tribal custom. Margo Running, a masseuse and teacher in training whose former husband was a Lakota Sioux, has tried to raise awareness and respect among tour operators, spiritual guides and schoolchildren. In tribal cultures, the needs of the medicine man were met by those he helped. But in Sedona, Running says, money is the new buffalo robe. "We took your land, killed your culture, and cut off your hair, and now we want your spirituality, too," Running said. "To most Indians, this town is a joke. It's a matter of showing respect." ** This story ran on page A08 of the Boston Globe on 02/07/99. =A9Copyright 1999 Globe Newspaper Company.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 7 Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net> Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 12:43:21 -0600 (CST) Fwd Date: Sun, 07 Feb 1999 15:25:59 -0500 Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 22:02:15 -0500 <Giant snip> >You can find details in the abduction phenomenon that correspond >to things (often pretty obscure) in science fiction. But can you >find any familiar science fiction source that directly spawned >the whole abduction narrative, the way Anne Rice spawned vampire >cults? >Greg Sandow Greg, Let's return the favor. Who, or what, do you feel is responsible for crop circles? One could at least make the argument that the entire phenomenon can be laid at the feet of Doug Bower and Dave Chorley, with the help of associated media. Yet people are still entering crop circles and reporting all sorts of associated sensations and experiences, including shafts and beams of light. Who or what do you feel are responsible for reports of animal mutilations? Have you read Kagan & Summers' Mute Evidence? Damnably difficult to find, I know, but the "culprits" are identified pretty clearly. Unless you think aliens arereally up to it. Similarly, who or what do you feel are responsible for reports of the Chupacabras? A real, blood-sucking creature previously (and still) unknown to science? Dennis
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 7 Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net> Date: Sun, 07 Feb 99 11:29:03 PST Fwd Date: Sun, 07 Feb 1999 15:29:37 -0500 Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com> >Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 20:44:18 EST >To: updates@globalserve.net >Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>>From: >Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>>Subject: Re: Abduction - >The Issue Of Reality >Date: Sat, 06 Feb 99 12:17:04 PST >>>From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>>>Date: Sat, 6 Feb >1999 09:44:20 EST >>To: updates@globalserve.net >>Subject: Re: >Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >>>>Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >>>From: Mark >Cashman <mcashman@ix.netcom.com>>>>Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 >13:54:40 -0500 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto ><updates@globalserve.net> >>>>>From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>>>>>Date: Fri, 5 Feb >1999 09:48:26 EST >>>>To: updates@globalserve.net >>>>Subject: >Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >>>And how do you prove that a particular presentation wasn't >>>available to a specific witness? In this case, it is possible >>>that Schirmer didn't see the movie and could tell us that he >>>didn't see it. But, does that mean he didn't see the ads for >it >>in the newspaper? That he didn't walk by the theater and >see the >>posters out front displaying the Martians and their >headgear? >>Could it be that he noticed something from the pop >culture that, >>for some reason, stuck in his mind and then, >under the influence >>of hypnosis, recalled that detail? >>In other words, Kevin, your hypothesis is unfalsifiable. As >you >express it, there is no way to prove that Herb Schirmer was >not >exposed to these images and was, moreover, not influenced >by >them. Even if he didn't see the movie, he _must_ have been >>influenced them. Moreover, even if nothing else in his >testimony >sounds like anything in this silly SF movie, the >differences >don't matter, according to you, only the >similarities. >Oh, for crying out loud, of course is it unfalsifiable which is >what I was attempting to show. Even if Schirmer could prove he >had not gone to the movie, he could easily have seen one of the >other representations. My point was that he didn't have to see >the movie to have been exposed to elements of it. That's all. >Not that he was, not that he did. Only that it was possible. Kevin, with all due respect, you have said nothing at all here. You have demonstrated nothing beyond coincidence. I have the feeling, however, that when I read your book, I will find that you have dismissed Schirmer's experience -- even with its consciously recalled UFO sighting and puzzling missing time -- as generated in some fashion by this silly movie. >My point is that as one well known abduction researcher had >claimed that there were no traditional sci-fi gods or demons >that could have supplied the inspiration for an abduction >scenario. Given pop culture, that cannot be said because the >influences are all around us. And so are all sorts of other influences, including a zillion alien types featured in SF, movies, cartoons, and the like that have no correlate in "real" abduction experiences. Abductees draw on a startlingly small number of images and motifs. >>No wonder we're getting nowhere. >Yes, because we keep arguing over the trivia. Jerry, you seem >to believe that there are NO pop culture influences in the >abduction phenomena. I'm only saying there MIGHT be and we had >better look at it closely rather than ignoring it. Kevin, there is no such thing as "the abduction phenomena." Check your dictionary for the difference between "phenomena" and "phenomenon." There are "abduction phenomena" (missing time, gray aliens, anomalous scars, and the like), and then there is "the abduction phenomenon" (the generic issue we're discussing here). I have no idea whether or not popular-culture influences exist in the abduction phenomenon. Perhaps they do, perhaps they don't. All I know is that I see a lot of sloppily formulated arguments claiming such connections without demonstrated causal links. I hope that when I read your book, I will find that you have done a better job of it than we've seen here. Jerry Clark
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 7 Re: The Order Of the Solar Temple From: Bruno Mancusi <Bruno.Mancusi@com.mcnet.ch> Date: Sun, 07 Feb 1999 19:16:24 +0100 Fwd Date: Sun, 07 Feb 1999 15:34:25 -0500 Subject: Re: The Order Of the Solar Temple >From: Stephen Miles Lewis <Ufoelf@aol.com> >Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 18:39:57 EST >To: updates@globalserve.net >Subject: Re: The Order Of the Solar Temple >The first and only reference I heard of the alleged hi-tech >delusion element within the Solar Temple Suicides was in Dr. >Jacques Vallee's speech at John White's UFO Experience conference >some years back. He said that there were reports this group had >used such devices but that this news had not been circulated >widely in America. I can dig up the exact quote if need be. Or >perhaps some one could contact Vallee for his source. According to Renaud Marhic ('Phenomena' #24, Nov-Dec 1994, p. 11 and 'Enquete sur les extremistes de l'occulte', L'Horizon Chimerique, Bordeaux (France) 1995, pp. 34-35), the source (or one source) is an article of the 'Journal du Quebec', 8 Oct 1994, which cited two former OTS members. So, the existence of these devices is based only on rumors. Regards Bruno
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 7 Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net> Date: Sun, 07 Feb 99 11:33:55 PST Fwd Date: Sun, 07 Feb 1999 15:38:48 -0500 Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 21:06:17 -0500 >>From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com> >>Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 14:16:15 EST >>To: updates@globalserve.net >>Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >>However, before this goes much further, we should all retreat to >>John Fuller's Interrupted Journey in which Betty, while >>recounting Barney's belief that he had seen a flying saucer >>through the binoculars said, "And I laughed and asked him if he >>had watched Twilight Zone recently on TV..." (page 144 hardback) >Good catch, Kevin! In all the discussions of this I've read, >nobody but you seems to have noticed that. I beg to differ, my friends. This is no catch at all. Simply to have heard of The Twilight Zone is not to render one guilty of being a regular, or even occasional, viewer. In point of fact, I was the first ufologist to ask Betty Hill a related question, after a debunker had written several articles claiming a link between Barney Hill's testimony and an episode of a Twilight Zone-like show titled Outer Limits. Mrs. Hill told me, "As for the Outer Limits program -- never heard of it. Barney worked nights. If he was not working, we were never home because of our community activities. If we had been home, I am sure this title would not interest us." The clear implication of the dismissive phrase "this title" suggests that the Hills were not much enamored of SF shows on television, including, we may presume, The Twilight Zone. Jerry Clark
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 7 Follow-Up Image On RPIT Site From: Neil Morris <neil@adm1.ph.man.ac.uk> Date: Sun, 07 Feb 1999 14:00:17 -0800 Fwd Date: Sun, 07 Feb 1999 15:42:28 -0500 Subject: Follow-Up Image On RPIT Site All, I've this morning uploaded a further image to my RPIT site which follows on from the image posted on the 4th showing what could be a symbol marking on the alledged "weather balloon material" seen in the photographs taken on the 8th July 1947 in Gen Rodger Ramey's office at 8th Air Force Headquarters at Fort Worth Texas. From the positive response from that posting, I offer this further image showing more, and continuingly interesting artifacts. The 650k file can be had directly at: http://adm2.ph.man.ac.uk/ftw-pics/new-1/rppngano.gif A small thumbnail and notes are to be found at the end of the index file: http://adm2.ph.man.ac.uk/ftw-pics/new-1/fab-idx.htm Best Regards Neil. ------------------------------------------------------- Neil Morris@Home. Email: Neil@adm1.ph.man.ac.uk Web Site: http://adm2.ph.man.ac.uk/ -------------------------------------------------------
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 7 Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com> Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 14:09:01 EST Fwd Date: Sun, 07 Feb 1999 15:44:39 -0500 Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 21:06:17 -0500 >>From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com> >>Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 14:16:15 EST >>To: updates@globalserve.net >>Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >>However, before this goes much further, we should all retreat to >>John Fuller's Interrupted Journey in which Betty, while >>recounting Barney's belief that he had seen a flying saucer >>through the binoculars said, "And I laughed and asked him if he >>had watched Twilight Zone recently on TV..." (page 144 hardback) >Good catch, Kevin! In all the discussions of this I've read, >nobody but you seems to have noticed that. >Greg Greg, Kev, List and Gesundt... It is a good catch.... altho one may consider the response as kind of knee jerk.... nothing more than a cliche with no specificity of meaning or intent... almost everybody had seen at least one episode of Twigh- light Zone.... at that time. Curious, casting a kernal of doubt, but not necessarily revealing. A lot like Gesundt's newest introduction... Gripple Plus for Nighttime. "When you just gotta catch some ZZZZ's and you can't! Outstanding, and it is mild!" We also guarrantee no abduction memories with regular use of this product... write me for your supply NOW! Mortellaro, aide de Gesundt, without portfolio!
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 7 'Strange Days...Indeed' - Tonight: Ed Stewart From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> Date: Sun, 07 Feb 1999 20:37:59 -0500 Fwd Date: Sun, 07 Feb 1999 20:37:59 -0500 Subject: 'Strange Days...Indeed' - Tonight: Ed Stewart : : From: UFO UpDates - Toronto On 'Strange Days... Indeed' tonight we'll be talking with Ed Stewart. The program starts at 11:00pm EST on 1010 CFRB [AM - 50,000 watts 'clear-channel] and you can listen via your Real Player at: www.cfrb.com/cfrb.ram To call the program 'live', dial: On-Air 416-872-1010 1-800-561-CFRB *TALK [local mobiles] ebk \_______________________________________________/ UFO UpDates - Toronto - updates@globalserve.net A UFO & Related Phenomena E-Mail List operated by Errol Bruce-Knapp - 416-691-0716 UFO UpDates Archives are available at: http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates 'Strange Days...Indeed' - available live via Real Audio 11:00pm EST, Sunday nights at: www.cfrb.com/cfrb.ram
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 8 Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality From: Judith Dale <judithdale@earthlink.net> Date: Sun, 07 Feb 1999 12:37:00 -0800 Fwd Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 13:39:24 -0500 Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >From: Mark Cashman <mcashman@ix.netcom.com> >Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 01:15:32 -0500 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >>From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com> >>Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 09:44:20 EST >>To: updates@globalserve.net <snip> >>Let's not reject an idea simply because we find it unpleasant. >My comments were not a "rejection" but simply a clarification of >what I, personally, require as proof from psycho-social theories. >Just as I require evidence to support pro-UFO hypotheses, I also >require evidence to support anti-UFO hypotheses. And, in both >cases, I am opposed to hypotheses which remain essentially >unprovable. >Statements which claim that the witness "might" have seen something >in the media which suggested some feature of the case are, frankly, >not hypotheses, because they are, as Kevin's discourse on the >might-have-been's of the Schirmer case demonstrated, essentially >unable to be proved or disproved. >In addition, I attempted to indicate that there were a number of >factors involved in memory which do not necessarily support >such claims. Basically, the range of possible causes for UFO >or abduction phenomena can run the gamut from >1) A fantasy, based on psychological needs, and perhaps grounded >in existing cultural resources. >2) A real event, memories distorted by fear reaction. >3) A real event, memories embellished due to the psychological >need of the witness. >4) A real event, but not at all related to the witness interpretation >(i,.e. a misperception). >5) A real event with some aspects distorted, omitted, or added >due to perceptual, cognitive, and emotional factors. >6) A real event, reported largely as it occurred, within the >perceptual or cognitive limitations of the witness. >In the above, except for (4) "real event" means what happened was >substantially what was reported. >As I mentioned in my post, opinion in the psychological community >is divided as to the effect of trauma and fear on memory. I think >that ignoring this, or calling it "convenient" for the witness >completely misses the point. The point is "we don't know". Thus, >we would be wise not to claim more certainty than existing >information and experiment can provide. <snip> Greetings all, Thanks Mark for the above. I like your clear presentation of all of the factors that may influence a person's memory of an abduction event. Opinion as to the effect of trauma and fear on memory, is divided in the psychiatric medical and nursing communities as well. In my experience in working with abuse/trauma survivors, as well as with folks reporting abduction events, I've found that buried beneath all of the emotion and intellectual explanations the person has, there is a kernel of experiential truth. The truth of what really occurred. The task, ofcourse, is helping the person get to their truth of the matter and achieve a sense of peace with it. The difference I've seen between those that are healing from abuse and those healing from abduction events, is primarily that there is a cultural/psycosocial construct in support of abuse being real. Certainly, in some cases, that can be up for dispute in the case of some individuals. In the cases of abduction events, there is little in the current cultural/psycosocial construct to support the reality of abduction events being real. Thus, making the healing more difficult. I think the very debate raging on this list is good example of this. I am certain that my experience, with abductees, is much more limited than many others who post here, but never the less, it does give me abit of perspective. The world is full of Great Mystery. I am quite concerned, that while we try to figure it out, the barn is burning down, and we've not even gotten the hose out. (my thanks to a friend for this analogy). Shalom, Judith
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 8 Pope On A Rope From: Andy Roberts <Brigantia@compuserve.com> Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 15:57:21 -0500 Fwd Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 14:00:22 -0500 Subject: Pope On A Rope The revelations in today's 'Sunday Times' regarding Nick Pope and his 'abduction' are not at all new and there is a history to them which many listers may be unaware of. This 'abduction' experience was actually in the first draft of his first book, 'Open skies......' and was seen by Jenny Randles who read the tome at that stage. It was clear that Pope was referring to an experience *he* had allegedly undergone. It didn't appear in that book and then was alluded to in his second book 'The Uninvited'. Pope was questioned many times by UK ufologists about this case and he at first denied it until it became obvious that the first draft had been seen. He then chose to play it down, becoming coy, pretending it wasn't actually about him at all. It was suggested to him that this was all part of a calculated plan. In that despite his protestations to the contrary Pope *was* interested/involved in the subject prior to getting his job on the UFO desk. Nick denied this vehemently. It was also suggested in some more scurriloous corners that at some later stage it may become 'useful' for this 'abduction' to become public, either as publicity material for a book, or as a book in its own right. Can it be coincidence that this 'revelation' appears at a time not too far distant from the publication of Nick's blockbusting UFO novel? I suggested that to Nick myself in the green room at Central TV last September. Others on this list were present and will remember Nick's boyish grin at the time. There are many conclusions which can be drawn from these facts. Get your colouring pencils out and draw them! Happy Trails Andy
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 8 Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net> Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 14:58:03 -0600 (CST) Fwd Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 14:08:16 -0500 Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 22:02:15 -0500 <Giant snip> >The match that lit the tinder might have been the Elvis >sightings invented ten years or so ago by the Weekly World News, >whose editors really do believe that they started the whole >Elvis-is-alive phenomenon. Certainly they received thousands of >letters from people who said they, too, had seen Elvis (I saw a >mailbag full of those letters at the News' office in Lantana, >Florida, and I opened many of them). Here you have an almost >one-to-one correspondence between media story and real-life >counterpart. The Weekly World News prints the story, and people >immediately write in with stories of their own. <snip> <Greg Sandow Greg, I find it somewhat ironic that elsewhere on this list, if not in this particular thread, you've also referred to Hopkins's mailbag, which you've also been allowed to dip into and read at random. Let's call it the Case of the Two Mail Bags. Clearly, you believe that one mailbag (abductions) is worth pursuing in much greater depth than the other mail bag (Elvis sightings). You also seem to think that the Hopkins mailbag is relatively free of media (and perhaps cultural) influence, whereas the contents of the Elvis bag are attributable (seemingly) to nothing but media influence. So let's assume you get your wish and the entire social science department of a major university descends on these two sacks of mail. What would happen? I suspect both subjects would be approached from the same discipline, ie., some (perhaps particuliarized) form of phenomenology. Both reports (sightings of alien abductors and Elvis) would no doubt be treated as sociological facts, by definition. But I doubt that any sociologist worth his salt would even begin to approach the assumption that what was being seen, experienced and reported in one mailbag was indeed the original, real Elvis. Some could have been impersonators on their way to work, for example. For that matter, I have a cousin who is a pretty good ringer for Elvis, or at least the Thin Elvis. Similarly, they wouldn't regard it as their brief or province to establish the reality of UFO visitations, simply because it wouldn't ultimately make any difference to them, just as it wouldn't make any ultimate difference, sociologically speaking, if, by some miracle, Elvis were still alive. For one reason, they would quickly come to the conclusion that if A saw Elvis in San Francicso at a certain time and date, B couldn't have seen the real Elvis in New Jersey at the same time, unless the sociologists want to dip into the phenomenon referred to as bilocation, typically (but not always) associated with Saints and other religious figures. In other words, all the letters are real (as sociological facts), even if none of them are real physical facts. (That is, they couldn't all have seen Elvis.) Nor would a sociologist necessarily dispute the experience. "Who am I," he or she might say, "to declare that A or B didn't think they saw Elvis?" They may even have a corroborating witness ("All I can say is that he looked like Elvis to me," confirmed A's cousin) and an inconclusive photo snapped in a crowded mall, or, for all I know, maybe even an autograph or lock of Elvis hair. Indeed, this is the approach taken by Robert Bartholomew & George Howard in their UFOs & Alien Contact (Prometheus Books, 1998). From page 60: "Of course, our interest with these contact cases is in the _narrative content_ of the stories, not their truth or falsity per se..." [my emphasis] By the way, I would suggest that the Great American Airship wave of 1896-7 was almost wholly media-driven, when it wasn't wholly media created in the first place. Yet that doesn't stop it from routinely turning up as UFO "fact" in much of the UFO literature. I also think it would be an exceedingly interesting psychological and sociological experiment (all ethical committees concerned consenting, of course) to hypnotize a few Elvis witnesses, just to see what comes of it. For me personally, though, Elvis will never achieve the stature of a Virgin Mary until he appears on a flour tortilla. But without reading every letter in the mailbag, how do I know he hasn't already? In the meantime, I'm still awaiting convincing medical confirmation (apologies to Whitley Strieber) of that first missing fetus, along with proof of the extraordinary physical nature, never mind function -- extraordinary or other -- of any recovered implant. And speaking of Whitley Strieber -- doesn't he have a big mailbag, too? Guess we'd better call it the Case of the Three Mailbags. Make that Five Mailbags, as I assume Jacobs and Mack get letters, too. One final thought that just came to me. Since I think you would agree that not every letter that Hopkins et al receives is the real thing, what percentage of the whole do you think such false starts represent? And to what do you attribute their cause(s)? Any good sociologist worth his or her salary would probably want to look into several of these cases as well, as a control population if nothing else. Actually, so would any really good ufologist. Dennis
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 8 Re: The Sheffield Incident & Things From: Andy Roberts <Brigantia@compuserve.com> Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 15:57:27 -0500 Fwd Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 14:17:12 -0500 Subject: Re: The Sheffield Incident & Things >From: Max Burns <AlienHype@aol.com> >Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 00:34:41 EST >To: Updates@globalserve.net >Subject: Sheffield Incident & Things Whilst it's nice to see Max back in action once more it had been hoped that he could have actually come up with some useful information for once. The so called 'Sheffield Incident' has been entirely explained (on this list by Dave Clarke) as terrestrial in nature. No UFOs. No dead aircrew. To sugest the former with, no supporting evidence, is a case of Max being disingenuous in light of what he actually knows about the case. To suggest the latter, with no supporting evidence, is insensitive to say the least. Max, you are stating that aircrew have _died_ - who are these people, what are their names, and on what streets do they live? You have _no_ evidence for this claim. Burns' attempts to turn the 'Sheffield Incident' into a money making scheme have been dashed against the rocky shores of reality each time he has sirfaced with them. He has accused those who have produced contra-evidence of being 'spooks' and agents of disinformation. We wish! As regards his (now self publicised) court case. Max fails to mention that at one time he was seriously considering calling Tim Good in his 'defence', and seriously believes that his arrest and charge of possession with intent to supply amphetamines (interesting that in his email he claims he wishes to 'bring you up to speed,'!) is an effort by 'them' to suppress his research into the 'Sheffield Incident'. He wishes! In his legal CV Max fails to mention that there is currently a warrant without bail outstanding for him at Rotherham Magistrates Court, and that the police of that parish are quite keen to know Max's wherabouts following him 'forgetting' to attend court. Max finishes with: >>Watch your mail for the full 'on-the-record' article by a >researcher who will remain, for the time being, name-less. But >who, rest assured, will be going public with what he was told, >regarding the Sheffield Flying triangle incident March 24th >1997. More speculation I'm afraid. The lengths some researchers will go to in bolstering a dead case is really quite alarming. Sit back and follow this one pilgrims, it's going to be an interesting ride. Happy Trails Andy 'Hard line sceptic'.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 8 Re: Robert Todd On MJ-12 From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net> Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 17:06:42 -0400 Fwd Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 14:26:17 -0500 Subject: Re: Robert Todd On MJ-12 >From: Robert Todd <Bohica449@aol.com> >Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 21:06:32 EST >To: updates@globalserve.net >Subject: Re: Open Letter: MJ-12 & Dr. Wood >>From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net> >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >>Subject: Re: Open Letter: MJ-12 & Dr. Wood >>Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 22:47:55 -0400 >>>Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 07:22:17 -0800 (PST) >>>From: Rebecca Keith <xiannekei@yahoo.com> >>>Subject: Re: Open Letter: MJ-12 & Dr. Wood >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >>>>From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net> >>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >>>>Subject: Re: Open Letter: MJ-12 & Dr. Wood >>>>Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 08:45:27 -0400 ><snip> >>>Frankly, I think Barry Greenwood pretty well demolished the new >>>MJ-12 papers, but I'm sure excuses will be made for his >>>arguments as well. >>>-Rebecca ><snip> >Friedman responded: >>I obviously totally disagree that Barry Greenwood or Ed Stewart >>or anybody else has demolished the older documents. The new ones >>are under investigation. >I would expect nothing less from somebody who has made a new >career out of hawking the MJ-12 hoax. >>You might note my comments about Barry's first article about the >>documents in TSM. Have you actually read it and my Final Report >>on Operation Majestic 12? Did you note that contrary to Ed >>Stewart's claims , the latter included 2 TOP SECRET documents >>from Robert Cutler that were in General Twining's files. at the >>Library of Congress Manuscript Division. Neither had control >>numbers. Same source, same recipient and some similar language >>to the Cutler -Twining memo. >Once again, Friedman treats us to his grand irrelevancy, as >though the "2 TOP SECRET documents from Robert Cutler that were >in General Twining's files" at the Library of Congress somehow >validate the fake Cutler-Twining (CT) memo 'found' at the >National Archives in Record Group 341 (Air Force Headquarters) >by two other members of the 'research team' of Moore, Shandera, >and Friedman. >Implicit in Friedman's remarks is the suggestion that, because >the two documents from Twining's files had no Top Secret (TS) >control numbers, we shouldn't expect to see a TS control number >on the CT memo 'found' by Moore and Shandera at the National >Archives. If indeed this is what he is suggesting, then he has >fallen vicitim to the same 'faulty reasoning' of which he >routinely accuses so-called "debunkers". >The fact that the documents located in Twining's files had no TS >control numbers is irrelevant. >What _is_ relevant is that, if the CT memo 'found' by Moore and >Shandera had not been planted in the Archives, it would have >been assigned a TS control number. >It _is_ that simple. >The fact that it does not bear such a control number is one of >several pieces of evidence showing that the document did not >belong where it supposedly was "found", and in fact had to have >been planted there. >Even Friedman acknowledges that the CT memo supposedly "found" >by Moore and/or Shandera was planted in the Archives. But he >contends it was planted in the Archives by members of the Air >Force declassification team, so that it could be found by Moore >and/or Shandera. >Of course, Friedman neglects to say that at the top of the list >of suspects who could have created the MJ-12 documents are the >'research team' of Moore, Shandera, and Friedman. So far as >anybody can determine, Moore, Shandera, and Friedman are the >_only_ people on the face of the planet with the means, motive, >and opportunity to create these documents. >Casting further suspicion on the team is the fact that two >members of that team 'found' the CT memo at the National >Archives immediately after the records among which the document >was 'found' had undergone declassification review by Air Force >_and_ National Archives personnel - reviews which failed to turn >up the CT memo, which would have required special handling, as >do all NSC materials. >Again, even Friedman admits that Moore and Shandera were the >first researchers to gain access to the files in question >following the declassification review. >Friedman contends that it is more reasonable to believe members >of the Air Force declassification team planted the memo in the >Archives, for Moore and Shandera to "find", than it is to >believe either Moore or Shandera planted the memo in the >Archives and then feigned 'discovery' of the memo. >In support of his contention, Friedman offers little more than >references to statements allegedly made to members of his >'research team' by alleged "inside sources". >Included among these alleged statements are cryptic comments >supposedly written on postcards sent to team members by alleged >"inside sources", cryptic comments Friedman alleges were >designed to guide team members to the National Archives to find >documents planted in the Archives by the same or other "inside >sources". >Otherwise, there isn't a shred of evidence to support Friedman's >contention that members of the Air Force declassification team >had anything to do with planting the CT memo in the Archives. >In his above response to Rebecca Keith, Friedman observes that >at least one of the two documents found among Twining's files >contains language similar to that found in the CT memo 'found' >by Moore/Shandera. Apparently he sees this as further >confirmation of the authenticity of the CT memo. >What he doesn't say is that the 'research team' of Moore, >Shandera, and Friedman, had copies of those two documents since >1981 or '82, _years_ before the CT memo ever surfaced. >He sees the two documents as further confirmation of the >authenticity of the CT memo. I see the two documents as the raw >material used by one or more members of the 'research team' to >manufacture the fake CT memo, which was later planted in the >Archives by one or more team members, at which point they merely >feigned 'discovery'. >Like it or not, the 'research team' of Moore, Shandera, and >Friedman _are_ suspects in the manufacture of the MJ-12 >documents, and planting at least one of those documents among >genuine files at the National Archives. >So far as anybody can determine, the only people on the face of >the planet who had done the archival research necessary to make >sure the names, dates, and places that appear in the fake MJ-12 >documents would 'check out' are the team of Moore, Shandera, and >Friedman. >From the very beginning of the sordid MJ-12 affair, the >'research team' of Moore, Shandera, and Friedman controlled the >UFO field's access to information pertaining to the supposed >MJ-12 organization, either through statements allegedly made to >team members by alleged 'inside sources', or through the >documents which, until relatively recently, somehow managed to >surface only through one or more members of the 'research team'. >Until Don Berliner received the spurious MJ-12 manual, SOM 1-01, >on a roll of undeveloped film, the only sources for copies of >the MJ-12 documents have been the team of Moore, Shandera, and >Friedman. The Eisenhower Briefing Document (EBD) surfaced when >it arrived on Shandera's doorstep on a roll of undeveloped film. >The so-called Carter briefing surfaced when Bill Moore >supposedly was led to a motel in upstate New York and then was >given only a matter of minutes to photograph the document. The >various other MJ-12 "documents" also surfaced through the >'research team' of Moore, Shandera, and Friedman, and allegedly >were furnished to the team by "inside sources" in one way or >another. >In short, until recently, all MJ-12 roads led right back to the >'research team' of Moore, Shandera, and Friedman. >>Let us not do Research by Proclamation >>Stan Friedman >I'm more than a little curious to know how Friedman feels about >doing research by manufacturing fake government documents, >planting said documents in the National Archives, and making >material misrepresentations regarding 'research' into the fake >documents? >Considering that the 'research team' of Moore, Shandera, and >Friedman, are suspects in the manufacture of the MJ-12 >documents, I have to question the wisdom of awarding a $16,000 >grant to Friedman to 'research' the MJ-12 documents, and I have >to question exactly how much 'research' that money really >bought. > >In the case of the Eisenhower Briefing Document, by his own >account, Friedman was pulling documents out of his own files >that seemed to support the EBD, even _before_ he saw the EBD! >Amazing! What a magnificent researcher he is!. > >Unfortunately, it is all too easy to create fake documents, >especially when the perpetrators have the raw materials in their >own filing cabinets, gathered from years of researching the >Roswell incident, as in the case of Moore, Shandera, and >Friedman. > > >Robert Todd It is a shame that Bob is so angry about people doing real archival research that he has to vent such venom and make so many totally false accusations.. Why not just say he hates Friedman, Moore and Shandera and will continue to attack, to selectively choose what he presents to try to justify a preordained position? The jealousy about my $16,000 research grant from FUFOR should be obvious. He neglects the fact that the money was obtained solely for my project and could not have been used for any other purpose. But why let the facts get in the way of another rant? And why should I waste my time to dissect such garbage? I shouldn't. Stan Friedman
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 8 Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net> Date: Sun, 07 Feb 99 16:38:35 PST Fwd Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 14:30:20 -0500 Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 12:43:21 -0600 (CST) >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net> >Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >>From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net> >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >>Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >>Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 22:02:15 -0500 >Similarly, who or what do you feel are responsible for reports >of the Chupacabras? A real, blood-sucking creature previously >(and still) unknown to science? >Dennis Dennis raises a very interesting question here to which I, as a lifelong Fortean, have given much thought and for which I pretend to have no ultimate wisdom. If anyone is interested, he or she might read my history of the chupacabras phenomenon in Unexplained! 2nd Edition (Visible Ink Press, 1999, pp. 402-09), where I examine a peculiar episode where -- not, alas, for the first time -- both believers and debunkers succeeded only in confusing matters worse than they were already. The not-so-simple answer to Dennis's second question is: probably not, which only deepens the enigma in some fundamental ways. As I conclude, "The most actively involved in running down [chupacabras] cases often seem credulous, and those who dismiss them as nonsense seem willing to brush aside all sorts of interesting unanswered questions." Sound familiar? Jerry Clark
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 8 Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net> Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 16:55:27 -0500 Fwd Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 14:33:51 -0500 Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com> >Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 12:04:48 EST >To: updates@globalserve.net >Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >While Kottmeyer might be saying this, it is not a theory to >which I subscribe. My point has always been that pop culture >does exert influences on us every day and if we are going to >understand abductions we cannot simply reject this idea. We can >see many parallels between abductions and the pop culture, (many >of them in well known movies easily obtainable in a video >store). But, as you point out, these similarities might be the >result of coincidence and can be viewed as circumstantial. They >might not even be relevant. >However, there is, at least, one way to check. It would seem to >me that if we had a database of abductions of sufficient size >with the proper descriptions (or better yet, drawings of the >aliens), then we could review it searching for "spikes" in >specific descriptions. Using Schirmer again, what if we found >that no one had reported the specific descriptive features until >after Mars Needs Women came out. We then find a drop off in >those kinds of reports until Ralph Blum's book came out. This >would suggest there might be a causal relation between these >reports and the cultural influences. >If, on the other hand, there are no such jumps, then the >probability is that this specific stimuli had no effect on the >reporting of alien abduction. >Yes, I can think of other examples. How about a sudden increase >in reports of nasal implants after Arnold Schwarzenegger pulled >one out of his nose in Total Recall? No, I am not suggesting >that the tales of nasal implants came from the movie, only that >if we had a database that was large enough, we could then >research it to find out if there was a sudden increase in such >reports. >Or, let's talk about Star Trek II, in which insects are put into >the ears of two Enterprise officers. How many of us heard >stories about insects crawling into people's ears right after >that movie was released? Great ideas, Kevin. >Greg, I'm not sure that you're being fair with your continual >suggestion that these things are "often pretty obscure." That, >however, is another argument. The real point is that I have not >suggested that pop culture "spawned the whole abduction" >narrative. I have suggested that we can see some parallels, and >those parallels should be investigated before they are so >casually dismissed. >Nor have I suggested that the whole of the abduction phenomena >can be explained by pop culture. My point, lost so often, is >simply that pop culture influences our lives in many ways, and >if we are to understand abduction, we should try to understand >the influence of pop culture. Since this avenue of investigation >has not been properly explored, I merely suggest it should be. >Who knows what we might learn? I stand corrected if I misunderstood what you were saying. I very much agree that we should study pop culture and its effects on UFOs. (Likewise the effects of UFO data on pop culture; it's a mutually reinforcing loop, though I do believe that much UFO information is independent.) >So, let me turn this around out you? What would it take for you >to become "impressed" that elements of abduction could be found >in science fiction? Fair question! I don't doubt, of course, that there are correspondences. It wouldn't surprise me at all to see abductees incorporating science fiction images, because even if abductions are real there's always the possibility that fantasy gets mixed in with truth in abductee reports. (In fact, the use of hypnosis makes that much more likely, as David Jacobs hasn't gotten enough credit for explaining in The Threat.) What would it take to make me believe those correspondences are very important? I'd be impressed if common, central elements in the abduction narrative could be traced to some single source in science fiction. I take for granted that there's going to be some contamination of abduction stories from science fiction, so details of that here and there don't matter much to me. I'm especially not interested if the details are more or less random and appear to come from numerous sources, because that's what I'd expect if science fiction had only a casual influence on abduction tales. (Not, as I keep insisting, that I'm really qualified to discuss this, because -- like everyone else debating these things on this list -- I'm not a social scientist.) But if the entire core of the abduction narrative could be shown to derive from a single science fiction source -- if the relation was as close as the relation between people who like to call themselves vampires and Anne Rice -- then I'd sit up and take notice. Kevin, it's something like the definition of plagiarism. If I use the word "grok" in a science fiction novel, I'm either making an intentional tribute to Robert Heinlein, or I've forgotten I've ever read 'Stranger in a Strange Land'. If I write in a style like his, or feature crusty libertarians who philosophize at excessive length, then I'm obviously under his influence. But if I steal whole paragraphs or entire plots, then I'm plagiarizing. I'd be impressed if abduction narratives had, by this definition, plagiarized science fiction, or were like a science fiction novel that features a crusty libertarian fighting alien slugs that crawl up peoples' backs while somebody from Mars teaches free love...a novel, that is, that's so completely under a specific, identifiable influence (in this case Heinlein) that it has hardly any ndependent elements at all. Greg Sandow
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 8 Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net> Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 17:14:02 -0500 Fwd Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 14:54:28 -0500 Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net> >Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >Date: Sun, 07 Feb 99 11:33:55 PST >>>However, before this goes much further, we should all retreat to >>>John Fuller's Interrupted Journey in which Betty, while >>>recounting Barney's belief that he had seen a flying saucer >>>through the binoculars said, "And I laughed and asked him if he >>>had watched Twilight Zone recently on TV..." (page 144 hardback) >>Good catch, Kevin! In all the discussions of this I've read, >>nobody but you seems to have noticed that. >I beg to differ, my friends. This is no catch at all. Simply >to have heard of The Twilight Zone is not to render one guilty >of being a regular, or even occasional, viewer. >In point of fact, I was the first ufologist to ask Betty Hill a >related question, after a debunker had written several articles >claiming a link between Barney Hill's testimony and an episode >of a Twilight Zone-like show titled Outer Limits. Mrs. Hill >told me, "As for the Outer Limits program -- never heard of it. >Barney worked nights. If he was not working, we were never home >because of our community activities. If we had been home, I am >sure this title would not interest us." >The clear implication of the dismissive phrase "this title" >suggests that the Hills were not much enamored of SF shows on >television, including, we may presume, The Twilight Zone. Hmmm...I'm in the happy position of agreeing with everybody. Jerry, I, too, think Kevin's catch doesn't mean all that much, for all the reasons you give, but in my view Kevin did make a contribution to the discussion by bringing it up. Greg Sandow
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 8 Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net> Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 17:10:20 -0500 Fwd Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 14:51:25 -0500 Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 12:43:21 -0600 (CST) >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net> >Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >>You can find details in the abduction phenomenon that correspond >>to things (often pretty obscure) in science fiction. But can you >>find any familiar science fiction source that directly spawned >>the whole abduction narrative, the way Anne Rice spawned vampire >>cults? >Greg, >Let's return the favor. Who, or what, do you feel is responsible >for crop circles? >One could at least make the argument that the entire phenomenon >can be laid at the feet of Doug Bower and Dave Chorley, with the >help of associated media. Yet people are still entering crop >circles and reporting all sorts of associated sensations and >experiences, including shafts and beams of light. >Who or what do you feel are responsible for reports of animal >mutilations? Have you read Kagan & Summers' Mute Evidence? >Damnably difficult to find, I know, but the "culprits" are >identified pretty clearly. Unless you think aliens arereally up >to it. >Similarly, who or what do you feel are responsible for reports >of the Chupacabras? A real, blood-sucking creature previously >(and still) unknown to science? These are excellent questions, Dennis. I don't know much about Chupacabras, but I'm not impressed by arguments for the reality of crop circles or mutilations. Clearly (in my view) there's a large element of fantasy in both areas -- people are quick to believe in the improbable, without real evidence. Still, I think these aren't the equivalents to the abduction phenomenon that I wondered if anyone could find. Both crop circles and mutilations start with something tangible -- bashed-down circles of grain, and dead animals. The circles may have been created by hoaxers, and the animals may have died of natural causes, but they were there, so the fantasy started from a real stimulus. It's hard to know what that stimulus could be for abductions. I'm not saying you couldn't suggest one (in fact, Dennis, knowing your fertile mind I'll be disappointed if you don't), but you'll have to go looking, something obviously not the case with circles or mutilations. Further, neither of these preoccupations has the psychological force that abduction belief has. I'm not saying that you can't find a crop circle or mutilation fanatic here and there, but you're not (as far as I know) going to find a large number of people suffering emotional earthquakes over these things, as you do with abductions. (Nor will you find that with people into bigfoot, or the Loch Ness monster.) You do find emotional explosions about alleged satanic cults and visions of the Virgin Mary, but these have obvious roots in established religion. Maybe somewhere in the new age arena we might find something with no obvious cultural origin that holds people in as strong an emotional grip as abductions do. Belief in angels? Channeling? Alternative medicine? I'm not yet convinced -- I don't think the emotional force with these things is nearly as strong -- but maybe this is where we should look. Greg Sandow
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 8 Re: Sheffield Incident & Things From: David Clarke <dclarke14@compuserve.com> Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 17:03:51 -0500 Fwd Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 14:48:19 -0500 Subject: Re: Sheffield Incident & Things >From: Max Burns <AlienHype@aol.com> >Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 00:34:41 EST >To: Updates@globalserve.net >Subject: Sheffield Incident & Things So the mythology surrounding the "Sheffield Incident' rumbles on..... About a year ago I challenged Max Burns to produce one single eyewitness who had seen a UFO engaged in an aerial dogfight with a Tornado fighter, or who had seen one shoot a jet down on the night of March 24, 1997, over the Peak District. I also challenged him to produce the names of the Tornado crew, and the name of the base from which said plane flew. A year - and no doubt a lot of in-depth research later - what have we got? >information via another researcher, who is going on the record >that he was in the company of, for a few days while on holiday, >with a NATO Tornado jet pilot. The pilot has confirmed 'off the >record' that the incident over the Peak District....culminated >in the loss of a NATO Tornado jet, resulting in the death of a >pilot... So basically, a "friend of a friend of a friend of a friend", all of whom of course, are anonymous and off the record, like all of Max's evidence (such as the mysterious "radar operator"). On Thursday, January 21, 1999, a real Tornado GR1 fighter aircraft collided with a Cessna over the village of Everton in South Yorkshire - killing the pilot and co-pilot and the occupants of the Cessna. Wreckage from both aircraft was scattered over a wide area; dozens of people witnessed the tragedy; the names of the dead pilots were released by the RAF the following day. Are we really stupid enough to believe the RAF are capable of hiding the deaths of two pilots over one of the most densely populated areas of western Europe for two years? On March 25, 1997, more than 140 volunteer mountain rescue volunteers combed more than 50 square miles of moorland where Max claims NATO lost a fighter - without finding a single piece of wreckage of any kind. None of these men were signatories of the Official Secrets Act - and some of them were even directing the pilot of an RAF Sea King which took part in the search! Max Burns is quite right when he claims the MOD have covered up what really happened over the Peak District on the night of March 24 two years ago. But the cover-up concerns a covert low-flying exercise which resulted in two sonic booms above land - not a UFO dogfight and a lost Tornado; an explanation which all serious ufologists in the UK accept to be the case. Even Nick Pope when questioned about Max's claims concerning the lost Tornado told me his opinion: "A load of utter b*****s". The whole incident - which should really be called the Howden Moors incident as it took place nowhere near Sheffield - has been thoroughly investigated both by myself and by independent researcher Martin Jeffrey, who has reached the same conclusion as I. Our jointly written full report on the incident containing all the relevant information and names of all witnesses and informants (no "anonymous unnamed sources") will be published by the Independent UFO Network at the end of September and posted onto the Internet in due course. During the last 12 months Martin and myself have interviewed all the witnesses (including Emma Maidenhead) and traced a number of new ones including a gamekeeper on the moors who saw the "UFO" pass over his head at 500 foot and identified it as a military plane, and a police sergeant who saw a formation of jets flying across the vale of Edale in a "V" formation chasing a second jet. This latter sighting occurred just seconds after Emma's sighting in Dronfield and quite clearly describes the same aircraft she saw. As for Max's "eight clear witnesses" to a triangular UFO - the reliability of his claims here can be demonstrated by this extract from his report concerning the observation of one Dan Grayson (quote): >"It was huge, triangular in shape and hovering silently, then >it slowly moved off, it was being shadowed by an unmarked >helicopter [at 11.30pm?] Strangely enough when Martin Jeffreys contacted Mr Grayson in September last year he maintained he had not seen any triangular object - and denied ever telling Max he had! Puzzled and perplexed by Martin's evidence I contacted Mr Grayson myself and what did he tell me? [transcript of interview 23 September 1998] Dan Grayson: I saw a red stationary light in the sky which moved off after about two minutes, and seemed to split into two. I thought it was Mars at first but then it moved off and split into two and the two lights flashed off and disappeared." I was looking towards Glossop from Stannington, then I saw a helicopter which had no lights on it. Afterwards I realised it could have been the rescue helicopter. I did not think it was anything strange at the time." Dave Clarke: Did you see a triangular UFO? Dan Grayson: "No I did not. I've never said that I have. This is just one clear example of the mis-reporting and distortion of evidence which has occurred throughout the sensational version of this case which Max has been promoting; I could quote numerous others examples. The same kind of distortion has been employed with all the other witnesses whom Max has included in his report, including Jonathon Dagenhart, whose observation of a West Indian man on the Snake Pass that night has absolutely nothing to do with this case. Jonathon has never claimed this man was a Tornado pilot or co-pilot, and has not been "silenced" in any way - the only person he spoke to was myself, and he decided to withdraw his evidence after reading extracts from Max's report which he himself described as "crazy." No doubt this saga will continue and I wish Max well in his attempts to prove the unprovable. But at the end of the day we come back to some simple questions: Don't bother quoting anonymous un-named off-the-record sources, it's not proof of anything except gullibility. If a Tornado was lost that night: what are the names of the pilots? It's a simple enough question and two years later Max still hasn't come up with an answer. N.B. Most UpDates readers will probably be baffled by Max's references to his "trial on absurd drugs charges". Perhaps Max should have told readers that he has been charged by the South Yorkshire Police Drugs Squad for "possession and posession with intent to supply amphetamines," a restricted class B drug in the UK. It is the job of a jury at Sheffield Crown Court to decide whether these charges are "absurd" or otherwise - not for the readers of UFO UpDates.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 8 MAGONIA Monthly Supplement #12 From: Mark Pilkington <m.pilkington@virgin.net> Date: Sun, 07 Feb 1999 23:22:00 +0000 Fwd Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 15:15:10 -0500 Subject: MAGONIA Monthly Supplement #12 ---------------------------------------------- MAGONIA Monthly Supplement (formerly ETH Bulletin) Interpreting contemporary vision and belief ---------------------------------------------------------------- Editor: JOHN HARNEY No. 12 February 1999 ======================================================= EDITORIAL My short piece in the January issue about the Hudson Valley UFO sightings seems to have generated quite a lot of heat. Philip Klass says that not only were formations of light aircraft responsible for generating the flap, but that the pilots set out deliberately to generate UFO reports. Jerome Clark apparently favours taking the reports at face value. On the Internet, I am castigated by Tim Matthews for apparently failing to notice that other types of aircraft were involved. However, I never said that all of the sightings were attributable to light aircraft, so I am not sure what he is getting at. Further polemical letters or short articles on this subject will be welcome. ________________________________________________________________ BETTY HILL'S MEDICAL NIGHTMARE Martin S. Kottmeyer Among the finer papers presented at the famed 1992 MIT Abduction Conference was one titled "Medical Procedural Differences: Alien vs. Human". The author was John G. Miller, a physician who got his MD at the Baylor College of Medicine and practised full-time emergency medicine. Though perhaps a bit too succinct and general, the paper was perceptive, thoughtful, and fully convincing in what it had to say. Alien abduction experiences do medicine in ways both grossly and subtly different from that practised by human doctors. Aliens ignore parts of the body that human doctors take great interest in, such as the upper intestines and the heart. Aliens show more interest in the skin and the cranium than human doctors do. They do absurd things like remove eyes, do therapy with coloured lights, and remove severe pain by touching the forehead. Miller offered a conclusion that was carefully measured and worded: "The differences between reported alien and known human medical techniques and procedures are great enough to invalidate any theory that these reports somehow originate in the witnesses' own past medical experience or knowledge". (1) In the audience was John Mack and he was quick to take Miller's talk to the next level. "The information you are providing is extremely helpful from the psychiatric medical standpoint. It establishes the difficulty of finding any theoretical explanation for this from human imagination or dream or anything of this kind." (2) Miller was more cautious than that and there is clear disbelief in a number of the alien procedures. I accept Miller's opinion, but Mack's is another matter entirely. He leaps to his opinion oblivious of the wider environment from which the human imagination and dreams can take up material. To demonstrate the flaw here, I will take up the matter once more of Betty Hill's nightmare of forced medical examination. During the day after her and her husband's UFO sightings, Betty became concerned that they might have been exposed to radiation from the UFO. Almost every ufologist from Keyhoe and Lorenzen to Ruppelt and Menzel discussed stories about radiation being detected from UFOs. Atomic engines powered UFOs. That was the speculation. Betty discussed her fear of contamination with her sister and she in turn contacted a physicist. He suggested any ordinary compass might detect radiation by the needle showing disturbance on contact with the car's surface. Finding a compass, Betty rushed out into the rain and ran the compass along the wet side of the car. At first there was no effect, but then she saw some shiny circles on the car, each the size of a silver dollar. At that moment, she recalled that the beeping noise they heard the previous night came from the direction of the trunk. When she placed the compass on one of the spots, the needle wavered. "She almost panicked, but got control of herself." She tried it again and the needle went out of control. She eventually got Barney to do the tests, but he didn't think anything abnormal was going on and suggested that the compass was just reacting to the metal of the car. The test convinced her, however. This left her haunted by the realisation that she and her husband had been contaminated. The circles on the trunk echo a UFO case from the 1957 Sputnik UFO flap. Mildred Wenzel at that time was reported to have pockmarks on her car that were tested with a Geiger counter and showed radioactivity. This may be some sort of folkloric cousin to the sociologically notorious Seattle Windshield Pitting Epidemic when people started to connect pits in windshields to fallout from a nuclear test. Commentators dismiss the notion that a compass could detect radioactivity. Barney probably had it right. Normal magnetism in the metal could probably explain a compass needle wavering off magnetic north. A needle out of control might signify other things, but this is of no consequence here. The important point is this. Regardless of the test's validity, Betty feared she had been exposed to radioactive contamination. Some ten days later, Betty had a series of vivid nightmares that form the basis of her abduction account. Our interest here is in the medical examination. The examiner asks her name. They discuss what vegetables are. She tries to tell him about meat and milk, but their meaning eludes him. "My hair was closely examined, and he removed a few strands and then cut a larger piece on the back left-hand side. I was not able to see what he used for cutting purposes." He looks down her throat. He looks in her ears and collects wax. He examines the hands and fingernails and takes a piece of the fingernail. Next, a look at the feet. "They showed much interest in my skin." An apparatus gives them a magnified look at it. Then one scrapes a letter opener-like instrument along the arm. A machine is pulled over with wires that each end in a needle. The needle is touched to points all over her body. It is a test of her nervous system. Sometimes it made a limb jerk or twitch. "Both men were highly interested in this test." Then comes the pregnancy test. A needle is inserted into her navel with a sudden thrust. There is great pain. The examiners are startled and the leader "waved his hand in front of my eyes. Immediately the pain was completely gone, and I relaxed". The test ends and they discuss things for a while, but then the examiner returns to look at her teeth to see if they are removable. Barney wore dentures and they were amazed they were removable. Discussion resumes with stuff like the star map, but there are no more medical matters. One can hardly deny the differences to typical doctor's exams are more striking than the few similarities. Hair samples? Skin scraping? What is all this about? Where's the blood sample, the urine sample? How about that wave of the hand over the eyes to stop the pain? That seems distinctly hocus-pocus; too much like the hokey theatrics of a levitation act. I won't explore the issue of if one could develop an apologetic to explain these things within the context of real aliens. I could bluff one if needed, but my interest is to show that an alternative interpretation is readily available. Betty feared radiation exposure. Not surprisingly, her nightmare is centred on medical concerns. In the fifties, the medical consequences of nuclear fallout were given prominence in the wake of a test called Project Bravo. On 1 March 1954 the US detonated an atomic bomb on the Bikini atoll of the Marshall Islands. Fallout ash descended on a Japanese fishing boat called the Lucky Dragon. Most of the crew of 23 fell ill with nausea, pain, and skin inflammation. Doctors in Tokyo examined the men, cross checking data with the medical experiences gained from Hiroshima. They were confused, however, by the presence of residual radioactivity. "Even after hair cuts, nail-clippings, and a thorough scrubbing, the fishermen retained radioactivity on their skin." (3) Clips from newsreels of Marshall Islanders being examined after Project Bravo contained one image demonstrating the nature of hair loss caused by the contamination. An examiner gently pulls a clump of several strands of hair from the head. No scissors or other implements are used. Only two fingers are used. Another image, said to be of skin lesions, shows patches of depigmentation on the arm of a native. The image easily suggests the impression that layers of skin had been peeled or scraped off. (4) Here, then, is the possible source of the procedures of hair sampling, nail cutting, skin inspection and skin scraping. The needles run over Betty's body have their obvious source in the compass needle run over the car. The reactions of twitching are a variation on her nervous anxiety over the results of the compass needle test. The pregnancy test has multiple interpretations. First, fallout was known to cause mutations and foetal deformities from the experience in Hiroshima. Pregnancy would be undesirable and of high concern. The navel could be metaphorically a match to the circular pockmark on the car trunk, and the pain of Betty and the startled examiner would reflect fear of death coupled with the disbelief she experienced from Barney. I should mention that it is not unusual for dream imagery to be overdetermined and this interpretation probably complements rather than contradicts the interpretation of the needle in the navel offered in an earlier discussion. (5) The hand-wave to relieve the pain is simple magic; hypnotic induction has long been used as a means of combating pain. I doubt anyone fully awake would believe it would work on the pain resulting from a needle thrust into the abdomen, but this is a nightmare and not subject to such considerations. Vegetables, meat, and especially milk were all things that possessed hazards of contamination from fallout. In the Lucky Dragon incident, tuna were warehoused while the officials pondered the issue of whether the contamination was bad enough to prevent their selling. Milk was widely feared because of tests that showed the presence of strontium-90. With vegetables, the question was whether washing them would be enough to remove the danger of fallout. The fact that the meaning of these foods eludes the understanding of the alien could be taken to indicate a crude form of denial or cover-up analogous to governmental behaviour of downplaying radiation dangers. The shock of the dentures is a nice touch and seems to build on the infamous crash-retrieval yarn of Koehler. A prominent feature of the aliens singled out for attention was that they had perfect teeth. The Koehler yarn made it on to the national newswires and does not require that Betty knew anything about UFO literature. Keyhoe dismissed it as nonsense in an early book, but it was not mentioned in Keyhoe's The Flying Saucer Conspiracy, the book we know Betty read shortly before her nightmares. It could be that the mouth exam earlier in the experience was a set-up for this scene, but that seems a bit calculating for a dream. It may only reflect an intrusion of more normal medical procedures into the dream. The ear wax sample and the foot exam are details I offer no comment on. Whether they could be accounted for by more knowledge of the Project Bravo incident or by idiosyncrasies from Betty's life and experiences can be speculated about, but I trust the details accounted for in this interpretation are sufficient to make the point that Mack's reasoning was flawed. Human imagination and dreams can explain the medical details of this very important abduction with no profound difficulties. The fact that Betty Hill's medical nightmare has a simple undeniable relationship to her understandable anxiety makes assumptions about the involvement of aliens strictly unnecessary. It is a well-known fact that later abductions occasionally echo material from the Hill case, most especially in a fondness for needles in alien medical procedures. Cultural transmission is the simple deduction. Later abductions also show great divergences from the Hill case. I have suggested origins for a number of procedures in other articles: nose implants, (6) anal probes, (7) brain removal, eye removal, (8) heart removal, (9) embryo implantation, (10) ectogenesis. (11) They come from sources ranging from bad films to medical quackery to major literature. I have reason to believe a number of other alien procedures come from similar sources. Alien medicine is not much like human medicine, but it is very much like a horror constructed by the human imagination. References 1. Pritchard, Andrea (ed.). Alien Discussions, North Cambridge Press, 1994, 59-61 2. Ibid., 62 3. Radnet website, Information about source points of anthropogenic radioactivity: item 3A Marshall Islands - Lucky Dragon Incident 4. The relevant newsreel clips most recently surfaced in the documentary "Race for the Superbomb", the 11 January 1999 edition of The American Experience. Video available from PBS, the Public Broadcasting Service 5. "Entirely Unpredisposed", Magonia, 35 6. A real-life sinus operation performed on Larson: "The Alien Booger Menace", The REALL News, 1, 6, July 1993 7. Blockbuster Total Recall: "Probe D'Roid", The REALL News, 2, 6, June 1994 8. "Spock's Brain", generally accepted as Star Trek's worst episode, and for eye removal see the tricks of the psychic surgeons of the Philippines: "The Curse of the Space Mummies", The REALL News, 3, 5, May 1995 9. Killers from Space: "Gauche Encounters: Badfilms and the UFO Mythos" - still unpublished by popular demand 10. Horror Planet: "Spawn of the Inseminoid", The REALL News, 2, 5, May 1994 11. Brave New World: "Water EBEs", The REALL News, 3, 2, February 1995 ________________________________________________________________ LETTERS After reading your piece on the "Hudson Valley UFOs" I began to wonder if you were talking about the sightings with which the rest of us are familiar. I also was puzzled by your statement that "ETH ufologists are not very interested in these sightings". I am not sure what an "ETH ufologist" is, but in fact the Westchester sightings are quite interesting and hard to square with Philip J. Klass's beloved private pilots. Unless you dismiss, without justification, all of the witness testimony to the contrary - hardly a scientific procedure (as David Hufford has documented to devastating effect) - the Westchester events remain among the most interesting in the history of the UFO phenomenon. Boomerang-shaped UFOs, of course, have a long history, going back to 1947 at least. One particularly remarkable feature, older than 1947, is the frequent reference to brilliant searchlights. There is also the extraordinary episode at the Indian Point nuclear reactor complex, well investigated by Philip Imbrogno, who is the Philip to whom we ought to be listening here. There is also the consideration that the objects hovered for considerable periods of time, sometimes as much as 20 minutes. Witnesses often reported that the object accelerated from a very slight speed to a rapid one in five seconds or less. Other witnesses, including aircraft experts, rejected the ultralight theory as an explanation for what they saw, and an analysis by the Jet Propulsion Laboratory of a videotape concluded that the object was an unknown, not a formation of aircraft. Witnesses who saw both the UFO and the Stormville aircraft insisted they were not the same. If we are to ignore such testimony and such evidence, all we are left with is the usual feeble wheeze. The witnesses are "irrational" and always wrong, at least if they're describing something anomalous; investigators who take them seriously are . . . Americans (gasp!) . . . and we all know what they're like. Phil Klass, who "kindly" provides clippings, knows better, as do those who, having deemed all inconvenient witness testimony the raving of fools whose perceptual abilities and judgements barely suffice to get them safely across the street, are gratified to find, once again, that the "psychosocial hypothesis" explains all. Or, as some of us find ever more reason to suspect, nothing at all. Jerome Clark, Canby, Minnesota Thank you for the "credit" as the source of info on the Hudson Valley boomerang UFO sightings in the January issue of Magonia Monthly Supplement. One correction: the general aviation (GA) pilots involved were intentionally trying to create UFO reports and did not "get together to practise formation flying at night" although some of them might have made such a claim. At the time I began investigating the case I had planned to visit the area. But I learned that an APRO investigator with whom I was on friendly terms (whose name I now forget) had investigated the case and concluded it was a hoax. So I called him to confirm. He told me that he himself had seen the giant UFO "dissipate" as the individual GA aircraft "peeled off" and landed; that he had talked with several of the pilots, who refused to give him their names. But one pilot told him that they used "coded signals", i.e., when the squadron leader wanted to turn right, he would click his radio transmit button once; when he planned to turn left, he would click it twice; when all the aircraft were to turn on their landing lights, he would click his mike button three times, etc. I was concerned that there might be a mid-air collision which not only might kill the dare-devil pilots, but might kill or injure innocent citizens on the ground. So I telephoned the Deputy Administrator for GA at the FAA (Federal Aviation Administration) to inform him of the situation. His initial response was that FAA regulations did not forbid pilots from flying close to one another during good visibility (weather) conditions - so long as all the pilots involved were aware of same. My response was: If two or more of these aircraft collide and crash, injuring or killing innocent citizens on the ground, and if the victims' Congressman holds an investigation and you admit that you were aware of the situation and of the potential risks but that there was nothing in the FAA regulations that forbids such dangerous practices - you will be looking for a new job. He said he would think it over. Later I learned that two FAA inspectors visited the Stormville, NY airport and informed its manager that unless the pilots stopped their dare-devil practice, that when they took their next annual physical exam the FAA medical experts might find that these pilots had failed on some technicality and refuse to extend their pilot's licence. Or the FAA might "discover" some airport deficiency and close down its operations. Lo and behold: the giant boomerang UFO stopped coming to Hudson Valley. Philip J. Klass, Washington, D.C. Re: UFOtrash (The Great UFO Conspiracy - Channel 5). You ask: "Need I say more?" Answer: Yes, possibly. The said programme was largely a cut-and-paste job of another programme shown on Central TV (called Dreamland) last August. This in turn was merely a repeat of one originally shown on Sky TV in 1996. Nothing new under the sun! Christopher Allan, Stoke-on-Trent ________________________________________________________________ ODDS AND ENDS ================================= Knee-jerks. Tim Matthews takes your poor old editor to task on the Internet for his piece about the Hudson Valley UFOs. This is apparently because I failed to mention that some of them were sightings of advanced lighter-than-air craft which "have been developed and flown for thirty years". Well, obviously not all of the sightings were of formations of light aircraft, but then I didn't say they were. Matthews also objects to my item about underground bases, insisting that they really exist. Yes, but that's what I wrote. He protests: "Underground facilities exist - they're a military fact of life." Perhaps Matthews should read my limpid prose before publishing his knee-jerk reactions to it. Furby suicides. (What is a Furby? It's a kind of talking cuddly toy, m'lud.) Ocean FM, a radio station in Hampshire, received calls from distressed listeners who complained that their Furbies had "died" when they took part in an experiment conducted by a disc jockey, who had asked them to put them next to the radio to see if they could communicate with his girl friend's Furby in the studio. Within minutes, Furbies were dying all over southern England and attempts to revive them failed. Similar results were obtained when a US station in Rhode Island repeated the experiment, or so it is said. A spokesman for the manufacturers, Tiger Electronics, was sceptical and suggested that the owners' "imagination was running away from them". (The Daily Telegraph, 20 January 1999) ________________________________________________________________ MAGONIA Monthly Supplement is available on the Magonia web site, with printed copies sent to the favoured few. Letters and short articles welcome. Letters will be considered for publication unless otherwise indicated. Please send all contributions to the Editor: John Harney, 27 Enid Wood House, High Street , Bracknell, Berkshire RG12 1LN UK ======================================================= Mark Pilkington ------------------------------------------------ Magonia Online http://www.magonia.demon.co.uk "Mutated beaver's pretty good. But mutated beavers that can telepath and teleport are really something." Bron Fane, Rodent Mutation
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 8 Re: The Sheffield Incident & Things From: Roy Hale <roy.hale@virgin.net> Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 23:17:51 -0000 Fwd Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 15:03:55 -0500 Subject: Re: The Sheffield Incident & Things >From: Max Burns <AlienHype@aol.com> >Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 00:34:41 EST >To: Updates@globalserve.net >Subject: Sheffield Incident & Things >Hello good people >And some news will be breaking that is really going to put the >cat among the pigeons, regarding the Sheffield Incident... <snip> Hi Max, Good to see you back in action, and yes I think you have carried out some excellent research regarding this, over a year I think you spent on this Crash case, it makes good reading keep up the good work. Roy..
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 8 Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality From: John Rimmer <magonia@magonia.demon.co.uk> Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 23:49:11 +0000 Fwd Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 15:29:14 -0500 Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net> >Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >Date: Sun, 07 Feb 99 11:29:03 PST >Kevin, there is no such thing as "the abduction phenomena." >Check your dictionary for the difference between "phenomena" and >"phenomenon." There are "abduction phenomena" (missing time, >gray aliens, anomalous scars, and the like), and then there is >"the abduction phenomenon" (the generic issue we're discussing >here). >Jerry Clark As Jerry seems to be the self-appointed grammarian-in-chief to the world of ufology, throwing his [sic]s around willy-nilly, let's have a look at this alleged linguistic horror. Any objection to the phrase "the abduction phenomena" must be based on the assumption that a plural (phenomena) cannot be linked to a singular (abduction). He admits however that there are a number of separate phenomena related to abductions, so how are these to be referred to, in the absence in English of a plural definite article analagous to le/les in French? Making both words plural, as "the abductions phenomena" would only be valid if we were comparing a number of unrelated forms of abduction, such as criminal kidnappings and abductions in legal custody battles, as well as alleged alien abductions. I think it is fairly self evident that "the abduction phenomenon" refers to the collectivity of reported experiences of abduction; whereas "the abduction phenomena" refer to the variety of separate phenomena which are reported as individual experiences within that collectivity. So let us discuss the issues (in what has been up to now a singularly well- focussed and well-argued debate by all sides on this list) and avoid making dubious points by displays of pedantry. Dr. Syntax, alias -- John Rimmer www.magonia.demon.co.uk Abandon hope all ye who press Enter here
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 8 Re: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 20:37:51 -0400 From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net> Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 20:37:51 -0400 Fwd Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 15:39:26 -0500 Subject: Re: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 20:37:51 -0400 >From: Robert Todd <Bohica449@aol.com> >Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 00:34:15 EST >To: updates@globalserve.net >Subject: Re: 8/27/96 MJ-12 Document >>From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net> >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >>Subject: Re: 8/27/96 Re: MJ-12 Document >>Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 15:29:51 -0400 >>>From: Robert Todd <Bohica449@aol.com> >>>Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 00:32:25 EST >>>To: updates@globalserve.net >>>Subject: Re: 8/27/96 Re: MJ-12 Document >>>>From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net> >>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >>>>Subject: Re: 8/27/96 Re: MJ-12 Document >>>>Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 17:33:43 -0400 >>>>>Date: Tue, 02 Feb 1999 14:42:01 -0800 >>>>>From: Ed Stewart <ufoindex@jps.net> >>>>>To: updates@globalserve.net >>>>>Subject: 8/27/96 Re: MJ-12 Document >>><snip> >>>Friedman wrote: >>>>Let us get facts straight: >>>Ha! Fat chance! >>>>1. I have never claimed to have had a TOP SECRET CLearance >>>>although I did have a Q which gave me access to Secret >>>>Restricted Data. >>>On page 138 of 'Crash at Corona', Friedman claims: > >>>"Both authors handled materials classified top secret >>>and higher, Friedman when in the nuclear industry and >>>Berliner when in the air force." I have no idea how the sentence got there. No, as I have repeatedly said I did NOT have a TS clearance.I have however seen many many TS documents that have been declassified. >>>The logical inference is that Friedman had a TS clearance. >>>Otherwise, he wouldn't have been authorized to 'handle' "top >>>secret and higher" materials. Not only does Friedman infer that >>>he had a TS clearance, he also infers that he had clearance for >>>Top Secret/code word materials (as in 'higher' than TS). >>><snip> >>The quoted words are indeed in the book. I repeat I have never >>had or told anybody I had a TS clearance. There was quite an >>argument with Richard Boylan about this. I have of course >>handled a great deal of formerly TS materials in my many >>archival visits. Bob ought to try a visit. >Oh, so you mean you _DIDN'T_ handle "materials classified top >secret and higher... when in the nuclear industry" as you >claimed in your book? I made no such claim. I repeat I have handled many formerly TOP SECRET documents at the Archives Bob has never been to. >>>>3. I published in my "Final Report on Operation Majestic 12" 5 >>>>formerly TS documents which did not have Control numbers, >>>>whether Ed Stewart likes it or not. >>>None of those five documents originated from the same place as >>>the Cutler-Twining memo; that is, none of those five documents >>>was found among the TS records in Record Group 341 (Air Force >>>Headquarters). Some of the documents originated in the office of Robert Cutler and were found in the declassified files at LCMD. >>It is not irrelevant. There are many Air Force documents that >>Bob might think belong in RG 341, but aren't there whether he >>likes it or not. >I _never_ said the documents he found at the Library of Congress >belonged in RG 341. This is a complete figment of Friedman's >imagination. But I suspect he knows that, and is setting up >this straw man to distract readers away from his deceptions. >Again, with respect to TS control numbers, the documents he >and his other "research team" members found at the Library of >Congress, _years_ before the fakes showed up, most certainly >are NOT relevant to whether or not there should have been a TS >control number on the Cutler-Twining memo Moore/Shandera >'found' in RG 341. Of course they are . Some were sent from Cutler to Twining. The documents prove that not all TS documents from Cutler to Twining had TS control numbers. >If Moore or Shandera did not plant the Cutler-Twining memo in >the Archives, it would have been there legitimately, and the Air >Force _would_ have assigned a TS control number to it. This is pure unadulterated hogwash. As has been noted there were a number of teams of people with high level security clearances who had direct access to Box 189 (noted on one of the postcards). The CT memo certainly didn't belong in the box in which it was found. Bob wants to believe that means Moore or Shandera planted it there. Others handled the box and had high security clearances. I have a letter from the Archives describing that handling "August 8,l988....Concerning the declassification review of the records in Box 189 of Entry 267 of RG 341 where the Cutler memorandum was found. Here are the facts as we know them: RG 314...Entry 267... An Air Force Officer (major) reviewed box 189 of Entry 267, RG 341 sometime between September 24 and 28, l984.[This was about 2 weeks after the death of the last survining MJ-12 member Jerome Hunsaker] .Review by Records Declassification Division. Entry 267 was reviewed between May 31 and July 1, l985. Box 189 Speicifically: First review done on June 20, l985; Second review completed on June 24, l985. Two items withdrawn from box on June 24, l985...... It was first served to researchers in July 1985." Clearly persons with TS clearances had access to the box3 times before Moore and Shandera were served the box. In addition we must note that since there were other TS memos from Cutler's office to Twining that had no TS control number that means there could have been ones in RG 341 without them. Obviously the rules f that office apparently didn't require TOP SECRET CONTROL numbers on all items. >has no such control number, which clearly suggests that Moore or >Shandera planted the document in the files, since even Friedman >acknowledges that Moore and Shandera were the first researchers >to examine the files following declassificaion reviews by both Shandera and Mooore didn't do the declassification. People with clearances did as noted above. Onemight well have planted it This again is fallacious reasoning. They went when they did because I had finally been told that final Entry 267 had been classification reviewed. That review had started months before and I was told about it by Ed Reese at the Archives. II kept in touch with Jo Ann Williamson as to the progress being made. >Air Force _and_ National Archives personnel, reviews which >failed to turn up the Cutler-Twining memo. One of those reviewers could easily have planted the item there. Why is that so difficult to understand.? >Even Friedman has acknowledged that the Cutler-Twining memo was >planted in the Archives. But he contends the document was >planted by somebody on the Air Force declassification team, >whereas I contend the most likely suspects are Moore and >Shandera. It seems clear that the reviewers is much more likely to have done the planting because he needed access to both the original location of the memo and Box 189. >Whether or not the documents the Moore-Shandera-Friedman >"research team" found at the Library of Congress have TS control >numbers has _nothing_ whatever to do with the absence of such a >number on the Cutler-Twining memo, which Moore/Shandera claim >was 'found' in RG 341 -- _not_ in the Library of Congress. >Friedman is throwing up a smoke screen in a desperate attempt to >make himself appear to be right, when in fact he couldn't be >more wrong. He is clouding the issue with utter nonsense, which >is a clear indication of deception on his part. The memo was definitiely found in a box where, judging by the subject matter of the other documents therein, it didn't belong. Therefore it was planted there. >>For example, the Library of Congress Manuscript >>Division in Washington has the papers of the first three Chiefs >>of Staff of the USAF namely Carl Spaatz, Hoyt Vandenberg (MJ-12 >>member), Nathan F. Twining (MJ-12 member.). Much of this >>material was classified TOP SECRET or Secret. Gradually more and >>more has been declassified. The amounts are not really trivial. >>For example, in Twining's case there were about 120 Archive >>Boxes. One of these ,about Box number 120, had folders labelled >>TOP SECRET and EYES ONLY. In one of these there were two memos >>from Robert Cutler, Special Assistant to the President. One is >>TOP SECRET EYES ONLY dated July 13, l953.and is a "Memorandum >>for General Twining" The other is TOP SECRET and is "Memorandum >>for the Secretary of Defense" dated June 25, l953. Distribution >>"Wilson 2; Nash 2, Lay 1; Koons 1; President's file 1;" >Once again, this nonsense simply isn't relevant to the absence >of a TS control number on a document supposedly 'found' in RG >341. >Once again, it is little more than a desperate attempt on >Friedman's part to hide his deception. Since he seems to be big >on labeling people with "mottoes," his seems to be, 'If you >can't dazzle 'em with brilliance, baffle 'em with bullshit.' >He's trying his best to baffle readers with irrelevant bullshit, >hoping they won't catch on to his deceptions. I will admit that Bob author of the Cowflop is definitly an expert at BS >>The Interesting thing is that neither memo has a control number >>on it. Furthermore, the Cutler Twining Memo (July 14, l954)is >>from Robert Cutler to General Twining. It also like the other 2 >>memos from the same source and in the same file has no control >>number. The source is Robert Cutler at the White House NOT RG >>341.Because some USAF HQ files are in RG 341 does NOT mean all >>are. >More attempts to baffle. His remarks are attempts to distract >readers away from the real issues. > >>>Friedman's argument is irrelevant, and deliberately misleading. A splendid example of a proclamation directly contradicted by the evidence at hand. >>>>4. Judging by the Cutler Twining Memo, we are dealing with a >>>>NSC/MJ-12 Special Studies Group. This is not part of the >>>>Department of Defense. The NSC serves the President. >>>It doesn't matter. It's where the record allegedly was 'found' >>>by Bill Moore and/or Jaime Shandera that counts. If one or the >>>other didn't plant it in the Archives, it would have had a TS >>>control number assigned to it. >>This statement is FALSE. There are TS documents relating to >>General Twining in an official classified document repository >>(Library of Congress Manuscript Division for one) without TS >>Control numbers and whose provenance is certain. I published >>some. Cutler's office was at the White House NOT in the >>Pentagon. >This statement most certainly is _not_ false! >Moore/Shandera claim to have 'found' the Cutler-Twining memo in >one of the entries in RG 341 that contains top secret materials. >The documents in the entry in which the document supposedly was >'found' are filed by TS control number -- not by title, not by >date, not by subject -- just TS control number. The CT memo clearly didn't belong there. I repeat. There is no question that the memo didn't belong in Box 189. It had to have been planted there. >The _only_ way to access the documents is through the TS control >numbers. If Moore or Shandera didn't plant the document in the >file and then feign 'discovery', that is, if the document really >was in the RG 341 entry legitimately, the Air Force would have >assigned a TS control number to the Cutler-Twining memo long >before it was turned over to the Archives, and the document >would display that TS control number now. >The fact that it does not show a TS control number is just one >of a long list of reasons to believe the document was planted in >the Archives, a conclusion to which even Friedman subscribes. > >Whether or not TS control numbers were used on the records at >the Library of Congress is _completely_irrelevant_ to any >discussion of the use of TS control numbers in the RG 341 >materials, and Friedman _has_ to know it is irrelevant, yet he >pushes this bogus 'explanation' almost as much as he pushes the >bogus MJ-12 documents. >>>The number would have been >>>assigned by the Air Force, not the NSC or White House. Of >>>course, Friedman contends somebody on the Air Force >>>declassification team planted the memo in the Archives for >>>Moore/Shandera to find. Yeah, right. It doesn't seem to matter >>>to Friedman that the records in question were reviewed for >>>declassification by Air Force _and_ National Archives personnel >>>both, and at no time did the memo surface -- and it would have >>>surfaced because NSC materials require special handling. More mind reading the box was handled. And, >>>by Friedman's own admission, Moore and Shandera were the first >>>researchers to review these records following declassification >>>review. How odd. >>>Just more of Friedman's _many_ misrepresentations. >>One thing is for sure, If one didn't go looking, the memo would >>not have been found. But Bob, to the best of my knowledge, has >>never been to any archive even though, based in Belmont, >>Pennsylvania, near Philadelphia, he is much closer to >>Washington, DC, than Bill and Jamie in California or me up here >>in New Brunswick. Bob, of course, has left out the post cards >>that led Bill and Jaime to DC and my earlier visit during which >>I found out that classification review was being done on some >>entries in Record Group 341. These facts are discussed in my >>final Report on Op. Majestic 12 and in TOP SECRET/MAJIC. Nothing >>like selective choice of data. >Ah, yes, more irrelvant distractions intended to mislead the >reader into believing Friedman knows what he's talking about, >but I don't. >>Furthermore I made a substantial, but unsuccesful, effort to >>determine the identity of the declassification teams which >>handled box 189 within 3 weeks of the death of the last >>survining member of MJ-12 (Jerome Hunsaker) and within 2 weeks >>prior to when Shandera and Moore visited the archives. The >>declassifiers were able to bring in brief cases and were >>certainly in the best position of anybody to plant the CT memo. >>having also had access to whatever box held it in the first >>place. >Yes, but the records also were examined by Archives personnel, >so your theory -- a theory without a shred of credible evidence >to support it -- is just another attempt to distract everybody >away from the persons who likely manufactured the bogus >Cutler-Twining memo, and planted it in the Archives. And I >think Friedman knows full well that Bill Moore is the most >likely suspect, since Moore told Friedman he planned to >manufacture bogus government documents in an ill-fated attempt >to force the government's hand on Roswell, and Friedman found >the plan acceptable. >It isn't clear what role Friedman played in the manufacture of >the bogus documents, beyond furnishing (wittingly or >unwittingly) the names, dates, and places around which the >documents were built. No wonder Friedman was able simply to >reach into his own file cabinets to find documents that >seemingly "confirmed" various aspects of the MJ-12 documents, >even _before_ Friedman was shown copies of the actual MJ-12 >documents themselves! >But it isn't very likely either Bill Moore or Stan Friedman >will confess to their respective roles in the MJ-12 hoax. >>The telephone and the US mail do not provide the same exposure >>to archival material >And yet I know more about government records systems than >Friedman can ever hope to know. Go figure. Another baseless claim. >>and how varied the format, styles, type >>face etc are in the real world. I recall Phil Klass claiming >>that the NSC used elite type.. on the basis of 9 samples he had >>received in the mail. He paid me $1000. because there were at >>least 10 done in PICA type as he certainly would have noticed if >>he had visited the Ike Library. >Ah, yes, the infamous bet with "debunker" Klass, a stupid bet >at best, but one about which Friedman will never stop boasting. >That bet had nothing to do with me. It is irrelevant, but Friedman >attempts to draw a parallel, thereby suggesting that he is the >brilliant Nuclear Physicist, and I am a wannabe, or soon-to-be, >Phil Klass who doesn't know what he's talking about. But, I >_do_ know what I'm talking about, and, as a result, I know >Friedman is being dishonest -- but that's hardly news. >>I strongly recommend that Bob visit archives. It is an >>enlightening, sometimes time and money consuming experience. >>Stan Friedman >I strongly recommend that Nuclear Physicist Stan Friedman take >two nuclear physics and call me in the morning, 'cause he's >_really_ full of it! >Robert Todd I take it this ranting is an admission that indeed Bob has never been to an archive You have my sympathy Bob.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 8 Abduction Researchers: The Good, the Bad and the From: Joseph Polanik <jpolanik@mindspring.com> Date: Sun, 07 Feb 1999 21:32:25 -0500 Fwd Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 15:57:14 -0500 Subject: Abduction Researchers: The Good, the Bad and the It is undeniable that some people report positive encounters with alien beings and that some people report negative encounters with alien beings. Unfortunately, some researchers (e.g. Dr. Boylan) claim that all encounters with aliens are really positive and that those who report negative experiences are mistaken, deluded or lying, while other researchers (e.g. Dr Jacobs) claim that all encounters with aliens are really negative and that those who report negative experiences are mistaken, dluded or lying. Are experiencers deluded or are researchers closed minded? I'd like to put the matter in perspective by referencing the history of research into Near Death Experiences, NDEs. When researchers such as Raymond Moody and Kenneth Ring first presented their findings, they presented only positive cases. Moody (Reflections on 'Life After Life', p. 36): "... in the mass of material I have collected no one has ever described to me a state like the archetypical hell." Ring cites Moody (erroneously attributing the above quote to Moody's first book, 'Life After Life') and adds: "(Moody's) failure to obtain any such accounts was duplicated in the present investigation ... as I have repeatedly emphasized, both the affective tone and the visionary aspects of the near-death experience tend to be predominantly and highly positive. Even in suicide-related cases, no one described (to Ring) a mainly unpleasant or hellish experience." Life at Death, p.192-3 Ring then goes on to explain his reasons for dismissing the reports of unpleasant or hellish experiences presented by cardiologist Maurice Rawlings. Among his reasons: Rawlings is a born again Christian and the people he cites were hallucinating: "... though it is true that some near-death survivors state that various aspects of their experience were frightening, such features appear to have been, in the main, *hallucinatory visions*, which were qualitatively discriminable from the core experience itself." Life at Death_, p.195 Anyway, time moves on and more and more cases of hellish NDEs come to light. And a certain segment of fundamentalist Christianity seizes upon these cases as evidence that the Afterlife is run by the God of the Old Testament. Naturally, they accuse Moody/Ring & Co. of pushing an anti-Christian theology. And they discredit the people who reported a positive NDE by saying that they were deluded by demons. The tactics are the same: Accuse the other researchers of pushing a private agenda and allege that their interviewees are hallucinating. Now, I believe that the field of NDE studies has matured somewhat recently, but history is repeating itself in another area: Alien Abduction studies. One group, represented by Dr. Richard J Boylan among others, claims that the aliens are all benevolent and that experiencers who report negative experiences are either dis-information agents or victims of mind-control experiments by rogue intelligence agents. Another group, of which Dr. David Jacobs is the outstanding example, claims that the aliens are all evil and that those who report positive experiences, are victims of mind-control by the aliens and need to see a competent hypnotist who will convince them of that 'fact'. As the Kottmeyer study demonstrates, the experimenter's theoretical perspective determines what he or she will see. I strongly suspect that Ufology will achieve no respect as a disciplined inquiry until this experimenter bias can be greatly reduced. <.>^<.>__<.>^<.>__<.>^<.>__<.>^<.>__<.>^<.>__<.>^<.>__<.>^<.> Joseph Polanik, <jpolanik@mindspring.com> Trionic Research Institute, <http://trionica.com>
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 8 Scottish 'Area 51' - Repudiated? From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@get2net.dk> Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 02:41:37 GMT Fwd Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 16:20:43 -0500 Subject: Scottish 'Area 51' - Repudiated? Forwarded from the UASR list. Stig ^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~ [U A S R]>UFO's-, ALIEN's-, SPACE- RESEARCH MAILING LIST <[U A S R] ^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~ Posted by : Paul Ross <mmross@netcomuk.co.uk> stig.agermose@get2net.dk wrote: >Source: The Scotsman Online >http://www.scotsman.com/news/ne22spoo990206.1.html >Stig >*** >Argyll - the final frontier for the little green men? >ROBERT McNEIL > >** > >PICTURE the scene in a remote Highland glen. Sheep >are munching grass, a hawk flies overhead, a fish in >the stream comes up for a fly, and men in white masks >are dismantling a space ship. >Is it a film, is it a scene from a sci-fi novel? No, >it's a very real possibility, according to the author >of a recently published book on UFO sightings in >Scotland. <snip> In response to Stig's post, I dug this out of a copy of "The Unopened Files" (Autumn 1998) -- a monthly magazine available in the UK. Hope you find it interesting. There is extra information in that article, which I will post later. (Took a while to type it up!) :-) Paul paul@planetepoc.com ---------------------------------------------------------------- RAF Machrihanish -- The Truth at Last? With his cropped dark hair and large build he's a formidable figure. He bends forward in his chair in the restaurant, picks up a cup and drinks his coffee. As he meets my gaze, he leans back and starts: "I am a retired RAF police corporal," he says in a sedate Tynside accent. "During my military career I lived a life of order. I often carried out security patrols, manned security and entry points and checked personnel and vehicles at sites like RAF Leuchars, RAF Lossiemouth and RAF Kinloss." He explains that, after working within RAF Wittering's Armament Support Unit, under the terms of a restricted UK Eyes document, 'SD814' (this relates to the stock-piling and transportation of special weapons and sensitive material within the UK and its territories) he was posted to RAF Machrihanish, on the Isle of Kintyre in Scotland. "While I know my speaking with you will not stop the speculation, I must set the record straight," explains the former military policeman, who asked to be called simply 'Alan'. "My interest in the rumors began in 1988, when my attention was drawn to an article in the New York Times, claiming that the American air force was working on a new hypersonic spy plane code named Aurora," he said. Before long, it was suggested that RAF Machrihanish, an air base which had no RAF squadron of its own, was assisting in transatlantic testing of Aurora, thought by some to have been built with the aid of alien technology. But while stationed at the base, Alan said he learned that the rumor had been made up, as a means to draw in more tourists: "Back in 1991, another newspaper article declared 'Project Aurora seen over Machrihanish - Campbeltown locals report'. Three or four farmers and two or three security guards and the occasional drunken builder all had their names in this article and we were in hysterics because it was simply make-believe - Paul McCartney hadn't brought in enough tourism so they needed something new." Alan turned the somewhat controversial spotlight on Campbeltown because it had struggled to come to terms with the impact of the military defense cuts. At the turn of the decade, the RAF had decided to scale down personnel at the base from 250 to 70. The move cost the hard pressed local economy =A32 Million year. "The point is, we are using the process that the military still uses today, which is basically a non-confirm or deny policy. So, although we had nearly every major news organisation and Fleet Street calling us, all we could do when answering the phone was refer them back to the press office at Whitehall with the 'I am sorry, I can neither confirm or deny that'. "If something special like a secret spy-plane was at RAF Machrihanish, it would be simply impossible to keep it hidden from the civilians who run the on-base Air Ambulance Service," Alan says. "Secondly, if you take any flight path or training area where aircraft fly low, Machrihanish is no exception. Every single farmer in the area shouts, screams and cries, simply for their livestock being frightened or abused by the aircraft. Far too many locals live within blatant eye-sight of the base as well." But despite rejecting rumors about Aurora using the base, Alan assured me that the American Navy SEALS, the amphibious special forces team which played a key role in removing Iraqi troops from oil platforms they were occupying off Kuwait during the Gulf War, did maintain a small presence at the base though virtually unseen from the public: "During the 1980s, NATO started to invest a lot of money into the base and decided to post an American Navy Special Warfare unit there, which was part of the SEAl (SEa Air Land) detachment. "Machrihanish was actually the European staging point for this unit, known as Spec. War 2. In these days of Middle Eastern political turbulence, I'm sure there will be no run down of this unit and I'm sure they're still there," he continued. I can confirm this; while speaking on the telephone with Keith Abendroth of Burns Security, the latest contractors who looked after the base, I distinctly heard American voices in the background. Alan emphasised that throughout his time there, British civilian guards manned the security gates around the airfield boundary and not Navy SEAL personnel as has been suggested in the past. He said this group force never carried weapons for the means of patrolling or defending the base. My source said that he did carry a Browning 9 mm pistol and during a lot of his security patrols he was the only person, apart from the dog handlers, authorised to carry live ammunition. (That permission was given to him under terms of the Joint Service Publication (JSP 385) 'Rules of engagement or servicemen authorised to carry arms and ammunition on duty in the United Kingdom' document). The length of the runway at RAF Machrihanish has also led to considerable deliberation. It was recently reported in the book 'UFOs: The Scottish Dimension', by the chairman of the Scottish Earth Mysteries Research group and Assistant Registrar at the University of Stirling, Ron Halliday, as being over a mile in length. This suggests it had been extended to provide enough distance "to operate aircraft technology the government wanted to keep secret and that would include devices allegedly developed from captured alien discs." Indeed, the base does boast a longer than average runway, so in effort to test claims such as these, one of Alan's colleagues set him a challenge. "During one night shift, we sat down and debated these claims, because the person I was working with was a very keen plane spotter and according to Jane's Defence Weekly, our runway was reportedly 1.8 miles long. "We knew that not to be true, but this person needed some convincing. So we measured it twice, from one end to another, and it turned out to be 3.2 miles long, which classifies it as one of the largest in NATO and certainly the largest in this sprat of Europe," he said. Not withstanding advances in vertical take-off technology, the military still needs to rely on immense runway systems. Apparently, the runway was designed this way so that it could be used as an 'Emergency Airfield Over-flow' (EAOF) site. It is one of the few runways in Britain that can usher in any aircraft landing with technical problems, including the Russian Bear aircraft and the P3 Orions, of the Royal Norwegian Air force, who regularly used the air base as part of the NATO 'staging point' exercises. "An idea of the security you'd need to conceal something like highly classified aircraft from the general public; the highest security level in the UK at the moment is for our nuclear deterrent. Quite simply, in the RAF you have a minimum of 120 armed officers available - at least 30 on duty at least 30 on stand-by and then another in what's called Augmentation Force. This is made up of station personnel - live armed and ready to go. "On top of that, you need a triple airlock system of MIDAS sensors, which stands for Microwave Infrared Detection Alert System. Basically, if two sections of that system are triggered, you have an immediate armed response. On top of that, you would have internal, trembler and fence detection systems. You may also have three or four high guard towers with armed personnel in them. You'd also have mobile patrols as well. To do all this takes a lot of resources and staff and it can't be kept secret. You then need a locked air space - an area which doesn't allow anyone to overfly because if somebody can overfly, they can photograph. "I believe there might be secure installations somewhere but I've got to stress the only way to get the best security is to have complete privacy. This means having nobody there, or having nobody wanting to be there and it's something we didn't really have at RAF Machrihanish," says Alan. Be that as it may, I could sense he considered the interview to be over. I risked one more question: "Do you think the American military has used alien technology, gained either from crashed spaceships or in some sort of trade, in the manufacture of their stealth aircraft?" "I'm certainly open to the possibility. Recent quantum leaps in stealth technology have been staggering. The classic example has to be the classic SR-71 Blackbird. Years before anything was announced, the Americans were flying at Mach 3+, but I've met the flight crew of an SR-71 and they laughed at it! So yes, I do believe somewhere that there are recovered alien craft being back tracked, or else such technological advances just wouldn't be so quick," he said. As we left the restaurant, I closed the door and turned around slowly only to see an RAF Police Land Rover in the car park. Were we being watched, I thought? Alan saw it too, although wasn't overly suspicious. Raising his voice he pondered, "If such an aircraft exists, would it still be called Aurora?" I shook my head, cautiously. The Pentagon had released the name by mistake, so it probably would have been changed after it came to the public's attention. My attention was still held by the mysterious RAF van, parked a matter of feet away. With that, Alan disappeared back to his civilian way of life. As I made my way home, I reflected that even whistle blowers believe we should make up our own minds on what went on at RAF Machrihanish. - Copyright Unopened Files. All rights reserved. - Posted by : Paul Ross <mmross@netcomuk.co.uk>
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 8 Re: Abductions and Researcher Bias From: Joseph Polanik <jpolanik@mindspring.com Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 21:54:32 -0500 (EST) Fwd Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 16:32:36 -0500 Subject: Re: Abductions and Researcher Bias Abductions and Researcher Bias by Martin Kottmeyer (originally appeared in The Devil's Advocate magazine/website, http://www.ksinc.net/~devilsad/ufo.htm reposted to alt.alien.research and alt.paranet.ufo.) You have just surveyed a little over a dozen abduction investigators who have collectively handled over 1700 cases. You learn 4 of them say they have a generally favorable attitude about the nature of abduction experiences; 3 of them say such experiences are generally negative. You say to yourself this is a nice opportunity to test whether or not there is an investigator effect shaping the experiences of those they work with. You meticulously compile and collate the survey data. Finally you get the following results: Abductees with positive-attitude investigators more often feel positive about their abduction experiences. Their reactions to the entities are more often positive. The entities are perceived more often as warm and cordial. More often one of the entities seems familiar or caring. The abductees more often see themselves as partners in the experience. They more often may even identify themselves as alien. On the downside they more often have vague anxieties after their experiences. Abductees with negative-attitude investigators, on the other had, more often feel negative about their experiences. They hate and dislike the beings more often. The beings themselves are more often perceived as cold and business-like. The abductees see themselves more often as victims. Do you conclude A) Clearly it makes a difference which investigator an abductee goes to and it would be prudent to recommend that anyone wanting to explore an abduction experience seek a positively-opinionated investigator; or B) Despite many claims and fears to the contrary, the investigators' hand proves almost invisible, its touch nearly negligible in formulating the abduction. Though you have now resolved the pragmatic issue to everyone's satisfaction, your work is not yet done. You also want to know if these attitudes influence the imagery and plot of abduction stories. You look down the data columns and what you read goes something like this: Positive attitude investigators have a lower percentage of humanoids and standard Grays and a higher percentage of human-like Nordics in their files. Their cases are less likely to involve missing time and the experiences are shorter in duration. Unexpectedly, examination experiences are more common, but they are less likely to involve implants, manual handling, and the genitals. The aliens less often give threats or orders to forget. More often they give tours of the ship and school the abductee. Like the Space Brothers of the contactees they warn about future catastrophes and cataclysms more often. Their abductees are more likely to show increased psychic abilities. There are some puzzles. Their abductions more often involve paralysis. The crafts are more often disc-like. The interiors are more often cool and indirectly lit. Negative attitude investigators, in contrast, have higher percentages of humanoids, and standard Grays. Curiously, the trait of vestigial noses is more common. The examinations more often involve implants, manual handling, and the genitals are less likely to involve sample-taking. In line with the Hopkins scenario, there are more scenes involving nurseries and hybrids. Their abductees are less likely to be given tours of the ship. They are more often threatened and ordered to forget. There are fewer warnings about future catastrophes. They more often have body scars and marks. There is less about increased psychic abilities or changes in habits following the experiences. There are also some puzzles. There are more otherworldly journeys. There are more messages of reassurance. There is less anxiety during their capture, less paralysis. Their experiences are longer. The crafts are less likely to be disc-shaped. The rooms are more likely to be rectangular or wedge-shaped and less often indirectly lit. Finally, their abductees are less likely to suffer nausea or diarrhea after an experience. Do you conclude A) The results make more sense than not. Those details that don't make sense seem less central to the drama of the story and might be resolvable by further study; or B) The meaning of any relationship between attitude and description escapes ready comprehension. You have likely already guessed that this study is not hypothetical. It was part of a much larger study conducted by Thomas E. Bullard and recently published by the Fund for UFO Research under the title The Sympathetic Ear: Investigators as Variables in UFO Abduction Reports. The results reported here are my reading of data columns P and N of his Table 37. If you picked A for your conclusions, your assessment matches mine. If you picked B, you conclusions match the author of the study. They are quotes respectively from the summary after the title page and from page 89. I singled out that part of the study, most of which is excellent by the way, as the most relevant test of Philip Klass's observation that Leo Sprinkle's abductees report kinder, gentler aliens than Budd Hopkins. He felt it was not coincidence that the personal beliefs of the investigators seemed to color the experiences of their subjects. While Bullard cites Klass's opinion as what is under test, he seems to forget the specifics of what Klass says as the argument goes along and ends up fighting against some exaggerated position that no skeptic I know of ever advanced. Bullard's data replicates what Klass says and the central pragmatic issue of whether it is advisable to point abductees to positively-minded investigators is demonstrated as prudently correct. Why does Bullard offer the conclusions in the B quotes? It appears to be that he regards the puzzles in the data as so paramount that they vitiate any claim for a real investigator effect. Some details are completely unaffected by the attitude of the investigator. Though fair enough as a question of what is involved in a full portrait of the abduction phenomenon, the fact remains that the data does not contradict the specific claims that have been made by the critics he cites. It would be interesting to know how many readers of this study accept Bullard's conclusion without looking at the table of results. The main reason I bothered to double-check things was because the two lines I quoted seemed too unlikely. One can't read the UFO abduction literature without seeing the hand of the investigator is all too visible. Some examples: # Christie totally accepts the idea of Space Brothers and has participated in workshops were she chats with beautiful space beings. She attends a meeting between her boyfriend and Budd Hopkins and is eventually regressed, yielding an experience involving needles in her nose and vagina. Hopkins concludes that her change of mind proves the Space Brothers are a myth and that abductions are traumatically real (Int'l UFO Reporter, Jan/Feb. 1987); # John Mack repeatedly asks abductees why hybrids, if they are to repopulate a post-holocaust earth, seem so listless and wan. Next we learn Jerry has an abduction where the hybrid is seen as beautiful, angelic, young adults. Peter proclaims they do not appear listless to him, but have a vitality all their own. (Abduction, p. 415); # David Jacobs finds aliens that are totally non-human and avers that contactee claims are a convenient touchstone for deciding which reports are probably bogus. (Secret Life, pp. 236, 284.) Richard Boylan's subjects gets a variety suggestive of at least a dozen races and they often share human characteristics like a reverence for life and the importance of caring for children. A chapter devoted to messages from these experiences is filled with material identical to that of the contactees of the Fifties right down to an advocacy of vegetarianism. (Close Extraterrestrial Encounters, chapter 14, 15.) Each would doubtless insist their methods are superior, their results more believable, than the prior views. Doubtless, too, their subjects agree. Somebody's wrong here. I would not be shocked if everybody's wrong here. Since ufologists are to some extent getting what they believe, be careful which views you side with. I wonder if we could convince Camille Paglia to take up ufology. I'd love to see what sort of aliens she'd find. <.>^<.>__<.>^<.>__<.>^<.>__<.>^<.>__<.>^<.>__<.>^<.>__<.>^<.> Joseph Polanik, <jpolanik@mindspring.com>
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 8 Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com> Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 16:34:16 -0500 Fwd Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 16:34:16 -0500 Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality :: : Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 22:05:57 EST To: updates@globalserve.net : Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality : : : > To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net> >Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality > Date: Sun, 07 Feb 99 11:29:03 PST >>From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com> >>Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 20:44:18 EST >>To: updates@globalserve.net >>Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality [snip of the addresses that were beginning to take on too many arrows] >>>>And how do you prove that a particular presentation wasn't >>>>available to a specific witness? In this case, it is possible >>>>that Schirmer didn't see the movie and could tell us that he >>>>didn't see it. But, does that mean he didn't see the ads for >>it >>in the newspaper? That he didn't walk by the theater and >>>>see the >>posters out front displaying the Martians and their >>>>headgear? >>Could it be that he noticed something from the pop >>>>culture that, >>for some reason, stuck in his mind and then, >>>>under the influence >>of hypnosis, recalled that detail? >>>In other words, Kevin, your hypothesis is unfalsifiable. As >>>you >express it, there is no way to prove that Herb Schirmer was >>>not >exposed to these images and was, moreover, not influenced >>>by >them. Even if he didn't see the movie, he _must_ have been >>>influenced them. Moreover, even if nothing else in his >>>testimony >sounds like anything in this silly SF movie, the >>>differences >don't matter, according to you, only the >>>similarities. >>Oh, for crying out loud, of course is it unfalsifiable which is >>what I was attempting to show. Even if Schirmer could prove he >>had not gone to the movie, he could easily have seen one of the >>other representations. My point was that he didn't have to see >>the movie to have been exposed to elements of it. That's all. >>Not that he was, not that he did. Only that it was possible. >Kevin, with all due respect, you have said nothing at all here. >You have demonstrated nothing beyond coincidence. I have the >feeling, however, that when I read your book, I will find that >you have dismissed Schirmer's experience -- even with its >consciously recalled UFO sighting and puzzling missing time -- >as generated in some fashion by this silly movie. Yes, look at the picture that Schirmer drew and look at the aliens from the movie and ask yourself if they don't resemble one another. Ask yourself if there were other cases in which such is the case and then ask yourself if it isn't possible that the two resemble one another through something other than coincidence. Then ask yourself if the Schirmer sighting is anything more than the observations of a police officer of a UFO. Are there any corroborating witnesses, or is this a single witness case? Is there any corroborating physical evidence such as landing traces? >>My point is that as one well known abduction researcher had >>claimed that there were no traditional sci-fi gods or demons >>that could have supplied the inspiration for an abduction >>scenario. Given pop culture, that cannot be said because the >>influences are all around us. >And so are all sorts of other influences, including a zillion >alien types featured in SF, movies, cartoons, and the like that >have no correlate in "real" abduction experiences. Abductees >draw on a startlingly small number of images and motifs. And very specific ones that are featured on all the proper books about abduction and that have been shown on various talk shows and documentaries for the last decade. And let's not forget that there are a wide variety of aliens being reported by the abductees that do not fit into the narrow mold that has been postulated. >>>No wonder we're getting nowhere. >>Yes, because we keep arguing over the trivia. Jerry, you seem >>to believe that there are NO pop culture influences in the >>abduction phenomena. I'm only saying there MIGHT be and we had >>better look at it closely rather than ignoring it. >Kevin, there is no such thing as "the abduction phenomena." >Check your dictionary for the difference between "phenomena" and >"phenomenon." There are "abduction phenomena" (missing time, >gray aliens, anomalous scars, and the like), and then there is >"the abduction phenomenon" (the generic issue we're discussing >here). Jerry, I know the difference between phenomena and phenomenon, just as I know the difference between there, their and they're, though I sometimes use the wrong one (though with spell checker, they're all spelled right). I even know the difference between effect and affect. And I know that there is no such thing as the Congressional Medal of Honor but I don't correct people (well, not always) when they say that. >I have no idea whether or not popular-culture influences exist >in the abduction phenomenon. Perhaps they do, perhaps they >don't. All I know is that I see a lot of sloppily formulated >arguments claiming such connections without demonstrated causal >links. I hope that when I read your book, I will find that you >have done a better job of it than we've seen here. You don't see anything here other than an observation that the alien Schirmer drew under hypnosis is similar to the aliens that appeared in a movie playing the Midwest at the time. You might also notice that anything that is said that suggests that a specific abduction might not be a solid case is attacked. You might also notice that some of the arguments made by the pro-abduction people suffer from the a lack of causal relations, corroborative evidence, or any physical evidence that could support a claim of abduction. It isn't necessary to refute every statement with which you don't agree. It is sometimes necessary to look at what the other fellow is saying and realize that he (or she) does have a real point. And it isn't necessary to defend Schirmer here. KRandle
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 8 Re: Nick Pope exposed in The Sunday Times From: James Easton <pulsar@compuserve.com> Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 22:26:05 -0500 Fwd Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 17:23:20 -0500 Subject: Re: Nick Pope exposed in The Sunday Times Regarding: >From: Tim Matthews <matthews@zetnet.co.uk> >Subject: Nick Pope exposed in The Sunday Times >Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 08:51:14 -0000 Tim wrote: >Dear All, >We've been saying it for months and he wouldn't come clean but now, >in an article featured on page 3 (no less) of today's "Sunday Times" >- Britain's most respected newspaper - written by Mark Macaskill, >Nick Pope is well and truly exposed. <snip> >Comments? Tim, It would be interesting to learn where the 'Sunday Times' first heard of this story. Did the newspaper pick up on a press release by Pope's publicists? As I'm sure you know, this isn't 'news' as such and even Ian Ridpath mentioned to myself some time ago hearing that Nick Pope was now claiming to have been 'abducted by aliens'. The 'Sunday Times' reports: "It was following this incident that he applied for the job heading the defence ministry department which collects all reported sightings of UFOs and related phenomena. He did not, however, enter details of his experience on the files since he was uncertain exactly what had happened to him and because he was worried he would be labelled a crank." Does Nick Pope now make these claims, that: a) he expressly applied for a clerical officer Civil Service position which encompassed processing reports of 'UFO' sightings b) he did so following anxiety that his then girlfriend and himself may have been 'kidnapped by aliens'? If so, how does Pope equate these claims with previous explanations of how he was assigned to this clerical role, for example: (1) UFO Magazine (UK) 'Interview conducted on 5 May 996, by Mark Birdsall and Vivienne Olbison' UFO: When did you join this office, and indeed, were you aware of its function? Nick Pope: I've been in the Ministry of Defence since 1985. We are just 'posted around' every two or three years to acquire experience. I had just finished various duties associated with the Gulf War and it just so happened that there was a vacancy which cropped-up. Also in this office was a chap I had worked with quite closely with Gulf War duties and he offered me the job. I was aware that UFO research was one of its functions. UFO: Was this the reason you switched departments? Nick Pope: I was certainly interested, it sounded fascinating, but I was quite keen to get out of my old job. UFO: Did you have any previous interest in the UFO phenomenon prior to joining Sec(AS)2a? Nick Pope: Very minimal. I had seen a couple of documentaries, read a Charles Berlitz book on the 'Bermuda Triangle'. I knew very little about the subject and went in with a clean slate so-to-speak. [End] (2) CNI News -- Vol. 2, No. 19, Part 2 -- December 16, 1996 BRITISH MoD EXPERT TELLS WHY HE VIEWS SOME UFOs AS E.T. Nick Pope Says Mystery Craft Often Penetrate UK Defenses ML: How did it happen that you were assigned to the UFO desk? NP: I fell into the job by accident, really. I had been working in another part of Secretariat Air Staff in a job that I didn't particularly like. Then, during the Persian Gulf War, I was working in the Joint Operations Center in the Ministry of Defense Main Building. While I was doing that job, I was working directly for a chap [who] worked in Secretariat Air Staff 2. He had a vacancy coming up and he said, "Look, after the Gulf War is finished, instead of going back to your old job, why don't we do an internal reshuffle, and you can have the UFO job if you want it." So it didn't even go through the Personnel Section. I was never quizzed about my knowledge or beliefs on UFOs. It was simply the fact that he offered me the job, and I felt, Well, why not? ML: Were you enthused about it? NP: Part of me, if I'm being honest, was just so keen to get out of the old job that I would have jumped at anything. But, of course, I won't say that I wasn't a little bit intrigued to know why the Ministry of Defense was looking at UFOs. ML: How would you characterize your previous interest or attitude toward UFOs? NP: I would say that it wasn't so much a question of being skeptical; I just didn't know anything about it and had never really thought about it. In my entire life, as far as I can recollect, I had never read a complete book on UFOs. [End] When does Pope claim to have been 'abducted', when was he 'hypnotised', who carried out the hypnosis and is a transcript available? Does his then girlfriend substantiate the claims in any way? "He has described how he was lifted aboard an alien spacecraft and then wandered around its corridors - without, however, meeting any aliens". We can but surmise if Nick Pope wondered why in his 'hypnotic recollection'... the lights are on, but nobody's home... James "Lee Shargel is Innocent" E-mail: pulsar@compuserve.com
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 8 Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com> Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 22:11:52 EST Fwd Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 17:15:43 -0500 Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net> >Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >Date: Sun, 07 Feb 99 11:33:55 PST >>From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net> >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >>Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >>Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 21:06:17 -0500 >>>From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com> >>>Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 14:16:15 EST >>>To: updates@globalserve.net >>>Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >>>However, before this goes much further, we should all retreat to >>>John Fuller's Interrupted Journey in which Betty, while >>>recounting Barney's belief that he had seen a flying saucer >>>through the binoculars said, "And I laughed and asked him if he >>>had watched Twilight Zone recently on TV..." (page 144 hardback) >>Good catch, Kevin! In all the discussions of this I've read, >>nobody but you seems to have noticed that. >I beg to differ, my friends. This is no catch at all. Simply >to have heard of The Twilight Zone is not to render one guilty >of being a regular, or even occasional, viewer. Yet she asked if he had watched the show recently... >In point of fact, I was the first ufologist to ask Betty Hill a >related question, after a debunker had written several articles >claiming a link between Barney Hill's testimony and an episode >of a Twilight Zone-like show titled Outer Limits. Mrs. Hill >told me, "As for the Outer Limits program -- never heard of it. >Barney worked nights. If he was not working, we were never home >because of our community activities. If we had been home, I am >sure this title would not interest us." Here is a statement which we can't falsify. How do we know that Barney wasn't a closet Outer Limits viewer? How do we know that this isn't the one episode that he saw? It was only recently that my wife discovered that I watch Friends. Hey, there are some funny lines in the program. >The clear implication of the dismissive phrase "this title" >suggests that the Hills were not much enamored of SF shows on >television, including, we may presume, The Twilight Zone. Yet, Betty asked Barney if he had watched it recently.... hmmm. KRandle
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 8 Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality From: Leanne Martin <leanne_martin@hotmail.com> Date: Sun, 07 Feb 1999 19:45:12 PST Fwd Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 17:26:42 -0500 Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 21:06:17 -0500 >>From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com> >>Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 14:16:15 EST >>To: updates@globalserve.net >>Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >>However, before this goes much further, we should all retreat to >>John Fuller's Interrupted Journey in which Betty, while >>recounting Barney's belief that he had seen a flying saucer >>through the binoculars said, "And I laughed and asked him if he >>had watched Twilight Zone recently on TV..." (page 144 hardback) >Good catch, Kevin! In all the discussions of this I've read, >nobody but you seems to have noticed that. >Greg Sandow Greg, Kevin & List, Agreed - it is a good snippet to argue the case. Point to consider, though, too. We all know how T.V. culture enters the real wotld culture - vis, "Doh", "Yada, Yada, Yada" and "Master of my own domain" & etc. As much as I hate to argue for a pro-abduction point at any time, it is possible that the reference may have been picked as a popular cultural saying and therefore entered the vernacular. Not being a native U.S.Alian of the period I have no way of knowing for sure. Does anyone? Regards Leanne ];-)
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 8 Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality From: Leanne Martin <leanne_martin@hotmail.com> Date: Sun, 07 Feb 1999 20:21:01 PST Fwd Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 17:29:35 -0500 Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 22:02:15 -0500 >>From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com> >>Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 09:44:20 EST >>To: updates@globalserve.net >>Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >>Given the timing, I did try to find out when Mars Needs Women >>was circulated in the Midwest by reading the newspaper ads in >>1966. Given the promotion of films in that era, that is, large >>newspaper ads when the films changed (usually in midweek), it is >>possible that Schirmer didn't see the movie, but saw the ads. <snip> >An important piece missing from all these arguments for media >influence would be other examples of this purported phenomenon >at work. That is, can anyone think of something else in real >life with the emotional force of the abduction phenomenon that >clearly, indisputably was created by pop culture? (Where are the >social scientists? Why is a complex question like this one, >which ought to be informed by specialized professional >knowledge, left to amateurs like Kevin, me, Mark Cashman, Martin >Kottmeyer, and Jerry Clark?) Of course!!!! You may have amnesia about the true effects of the Orsone Welles "War Of The Worlds" broadcast on American society?? What better proof do you need? A radio drama clearly labeled a work of fiction having massive psychological impact on a few individuals. They in turn passed on the panic and so it spread. >I can think of two such examples, and -- though I'm no social >scientist and have no real standing to argue this point (an >admission I wish others in this debate would just as cheerfully >make) -- my examples seem to show that the abduction phenomenon >can't have been generated the same way. >One example would be the belief that Elvis is alive, fervently >maintained by people who think they've seen him. And there's a >parallel belief (set forth in a fascinating book by Raymond >Moody, called 'Elvis After Life', I think) that Elvis has >appeared to people after his death, functioning in effect as an >angel. Where did this come from? Well, most likely from the >intense fascination, verging on worship, that Elvis had for many >people when he was alive. Do they see the fat, ill, old Elvis that actually died or the younger, virile Elvis that set rock'n'roll aflame? <snip> >My second example would be vampire cults, though I'm not sure >"cult" is the proper word for them. They've been documented in >at least two books. People drink each others' blood; many of >them wear clothes and create environments based on vampire books >and movies, especially Anne Rice's novels. Again, there's a >one-to-one correspondence between pop culture and the phenomenon >at hand. The vampire books and movies exist; people in the >vampire groups consciously imitate them. They don't invent some >other kind of vampire, a vampire that, for instance, might drink >only animals' blood, or might love sunlight. A very good example to chew over. Like 'abductions' these 'Goths',as they like to be called (at least here in Oz) have taken something in from popular culture and adapted it for their lives, or adapted their lives to it. They will still draw their dole money (unemployment benefits) and use the 'free' medical system here (lucky us, eh?), they still buy food and other services, etc. Obviously real vampires have no need for that but the Goths still have deal with reality. How does this parallel 'abductions'? People who have claims of being abducted must still relate to the real world, at least those who haven't totally lost it. For the most part something has happened in their lives that they need to deal with and convert into one or more experiences within their makeup so that they can live an otherwise normal life. Some people who undergo severe and occasionally repeated trauma develop split personalities. These other personalities can cope with their stressors so that their main personality can remain 'normal' in the mind of the indivual. Other people develop fantasy worlds in which to escape from time to time or develop 'eccentricities' in their behaviour that other people accept as just part of their makeup. Others still may latch onto a sudden burst, or bursts, of intense fantasy/dreamstate expression as a means of attempting to solve a complex and troubling aspect of their lives bringing in 'alien' characters who take important roles in the mind-play. >You can find details in the abduction phenomenon that correspond >to things (often pretty obscure) in science fiction. But can you >find any familiar science fiction source that directly spawned >the whole abduction narrative, the way Anne Rice spawned vampire >cults? Try 'Invaders From Mars' for a good description of the 'taken by aliens against my will' scenario. >Greg Sandow Regards, Leanne ];-)
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 8 Condon Report Now Online From: stig.agermose@get2net.dk (Stig Agermose) Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 06:40:25 GMT Fwd Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 17:33:40 -0500 Subject: Condon Report Now Online 30 years ago, on January 9, 1969, the University of Colorado UFO Project, headed by Edward Condon and sponsored by the U.S. Air Force, released its report, Scientific Study of Unidentified Flying Objects, commonly referred to as The Condon Report. The general conclusion was "that nothing has come from the study of UFOs in the past 21 years that has added to scientific knowledge." The report is now online, but when I checked the link, I got an "Error 404 - File Not Found" message. The item below is forwarded from "alt.ufo.reports". Stig *** From: see.text@for.address Newsgroups: alt.ufo.reports,alt.tv.x-files,alt.ufo.reports,aus.tv.x-files,de.alt.ufo Subject: Condon UFO Report 1968 Now on Web Date: Sun, 07 Feb 1999 23:38:24 -0500 Lines: 36 The National Capital Area Skeptics (NCAS) is pleased to announce that the 1968 _Scientific Study of Unidentified Flying Objects_, the final report of the Colorado UFO study, is now available on the NCAS web site at: http://www.ncas.org/condon/ With the permission of the Regents of the University of Colorado (the copyright holders), a volunteer group of NCAS members has been working for more than a year to produce this internet edition of the Colorado report (frequently referred to as the Condon Report, for its scientific director, Dr. Edward U. Condon of the University of Colorado). While the Condon Report has been frequently commented on and heavily criticized over the three decades since its initial release, it has been out of print for most of that time, and has virtually disappeared from library shelves nationwide. Now that the report is on the web, anyone interested in the UFO issue can directly compare the work of the project with the claims of its critics. We welcome feedback on our Internet edition of _Scientific Study of Unidentified Flying Objects_. Paul Jaffe President, NCAS 1998-99 ncas@ncas.org
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 8 Re: Texas Sighting On Fox 4 News From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@get2net.dk> Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 08:12:49 +0100 (MET) Fwd Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 17:35:25 -0500 Subject: Re: Texas Sighting On Fox 4 News Forwarded from "alt.ufo.reports". Stig *** From: kprinter@dfw.nationwide.net (Mark Shippey) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.ufo.reports Subject: Sighting from the "TeX Files" Date: 8 Feb 1999 03:14:37 GMT Organization: Nationwide Internet / 888-Nationwide Lines: 112 by Fort Worth Star Telegram columnist Dave Lieber Updated: Saturday, Feb. 6, 1999 at 22:53 CST Another sighting of Keller spaceman expected tonight What I refer to as "the Keller spaceman" -- the unidentified flying object I wrote about in this space two months ago -- makes its television debut tonight on Fox 4 News' 9 p.m. broadcast. As part of his series on unexplained Texas phenomena called "The TeX-Files," weekend news anchorman Richard Ray presents a five-minute minidocumentary. Star-Telegram photographer M.L. Gray will tell the story of how he was driving home from work on Southlake Boulevard in late November when he noticed a bright object in the sky near Keller. He took 18 color photographs. "Clearly, M.L.'s expertise as a sky photographer and the fact that this is not a hoax makes it a really good mystery," Ray says. Before reporting the original story, I checked with area airports, radar specialists, the National Weather Service and area police departments to make sure I wasn't missing an obvious explanation. Fox 4 News, which will present the report after tonight's showing of The X Files, quotes an area UFO investigator who coincidentally lives in Keller, and a Milwaukee photography expert. Both are baffled by Gray's photographs. Since going public, Gray has taken a lot of ribbing from friends and co-workers. But he stands by what he saw. And his photographs give him added credibility. "The more I review the images, the more extraterrestrial they seem," he says. After my story appeared, I received many letters and e-mails. Ken Cherry of Keller, the UFO investigator recently appointed the Texas state director of Mutual UFO Network, the largest organization for scientific study of UFOs, joked: "Maybe the little suckers just flew to congratulate me on my recent appointment." Cherry offered me a job as a part-time field investigator with his group, but I told him I intend to stick with the Star-Telegram. Here are excerpts from other Keller spaceman letters: "I have inspected the photos of the UFO over Keller, and I would say that this is ball lightning," one man wrote. Ball lightning? I had never heard of that but did some research and learned that there are mysterious lightning balls that shoot from the sky. The only problem with this explanation is that Gray says he saw the object for 15 minutes. Lightning doesn't last that long. Another man wrote, "My buddy, who seems to know a fair amount about astronomy, says that it was Jupiter." Sorry, but tell your buddy that Gray said he saw the object drop 1,000 feet in the sky in about three seconds. Planets don't drop. A Keller woman wrote, "I saw something in the sky also. ... It did catch my attention long enough to wonder.... We see and hear so much stuff in the sky around here in Keller, so I did not give it a whole lot of thought. I figured it must be a weather balloon with the sun shining on it. But when I looked back up, it was gone." Yes, and on that late November day, the sun was behind the object in the sky from the vantage point where Gray took his photographs. And this one, which I pass along without comment: "There is something going on in the skies, and everywhere else for that matter. Actually, this world has physical beings, which is apparent, and also beings I call super-physical. That is to say, not ghosts, but beings operating on a level of nature that makes them seemingly not solid compared to humans. "You might say they operate at another dimensional level of nature or you might say they are on another vibrational level. There just does not seem to be any words that correctly defines their reality.... "Soon I will prove to the whole world that this very astonishing thing I have written to you about is very real." One of my favorites came from a Southlake woman who explained that her mother's second husband was buried in Colleyville on the day that Gray saw the object. She wrote, "That afternoon I believe his bright light was shining in Southlake, and my mother was watching and saw it. I think he was on his way to heaven, and he was letting her know it was beautiful and OK." Finally, a man with a sense of humor wrote: "I checked out the UFO pictures on the http://www.virtualtexan.com Web site. Pretty interesting, but I was left wondering, `What's next?' Are you going to start your own version of the 'Tex' Files? Who'll play Scully to your Mulder?" This reader was closer to the truth than he could have realized. Tonight, after Scully and Mulder sign off, the Keller spaceman will shine his light on local television. Folks, keep those cards and letters beaming in.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 8 Texas Sighting: Photographer Interviewed From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@get2net.dk> Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 07:33:31 GMT Fwd Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 17:38:05 -0500 Subject: Texas Sighting: Photographer Interviewed Source: Virtual Texan, http://www.virtualtexan.com/comm/virtual/fun/ufo/ Stig *** UFO near Keller! By Dave Lieber ** The following is a transcript of an interview with Star-Telegram photographer M.L. Gray and Star-Telegram columnist Dave Lieber concerning Gray's photos of an unidentified flying object which he spotted on the afternoon of Nov. 30, 1998 near Keller, Texas. Q. OK, first M.L., please don't be messing with me. Do you swear on a stack of bibles that what you're going to tell me is true? I just got back from vacation today and have no time for any silly games. A. No games. It's all true. Q. OK, start at the beginning and tell me EVERYTHING. Where were you going, when and why, etc.? A. It was Monday afternoon between 4:30 and 5 p.m. I was on my way home from work. I was in a hurry, in fact, because my wife had to go to school and I had to watch my daughter. About the time I got to Southlake -- heading west on Southlake Boulevard (Farm Road 1709) out of Grapevine, I noticed a bright light to the west, pretty much directly over the road in front of me. It struck me the way anything else bright in the sky would: you try to identify it and then go back to what you're doing. But this light changed. It grew from a small spot, slowly, into an extremely bright light. Approximately one-fourth the brightness of the sun. And then it began to dim. This process took about eight to 10 seconds. At first I thought, "How unusual. Perhaps it's a supernova and the light is reaching the earth for the first time." Because it was very unusual. Q. And then? A. And then it caught my eye so much, I kept a tight look on it. The light did not completely disappear. It turned back into an object. That really caught my attention. The object was so far away it was impossible to make out a clear shape. It was basically a speck in the sky. But the unusual thing about this speck was that it didn't seem to be moving anywhere. So I kept an eye on it, trying to avoid a car wreck at the same time. I was looking for a place to pull over and take my camera out. About the time I got my camera out and was ready to shoot, the object began to descend not an angle, but straight down. >From my best estimate, I guess the object was about three miles away. I guess it descended a thousand feet in a few seconds. And then it stopped again after the descent. Now I was really curious. Q. I'll bet. A. It slowly began to hover, still very high in the sky at this point. And it moved back and forth in a very unusual and seemingly pointless manner. By this time I had my longest lens trained on it -- which was a 300 millimeter. I desperately needed a 1,000 millimeter, but I began to shoot anyway. The object continued in its meandering path for about 30 seconds, as I continued to shoot photos. I shot about 15 frames or so, and at that point it disappeared. I could no longer see it. Q. Were you in Keller? A. By this time I was in Keller. I lost sight of it when I got to the corner of Rufe Snow Drive and Farm Road 1709. I shot about 10 frames in Southlake and another five frames in Keller. Q. Do you think it was flying above Keller? A. No, probably two to three miles west. Q. That would put it close to Interstate 35, right? A. Probably even a little further west than that. I got the sense it was very large and had to be a long way away. Q. What color was it? A. The light that appeared at first was a blazing white. Whiter than the sun at first. A pure white. And then it faded into an object that was very gray and mute in tone. But it had a brightness of its own. It's hard to explain. Q. Was the sun out at this point? A. Yes, it was. It was in the sky, but it was about 10 degrees to the left of it, south of it. Q. So could it have been a reflection of the sun on something? A. Possibly, but I've never seen an object drop from the sky in the manner this did. Q. Could it have been a weather balloon? A. Again, balloons don't tend to drop like that -- and that quickly. Q. An airplane or a helicopter? A. The bright light at first I saw ... I couldn't say it was not a reflection. But if it was, it was one of the most intense reflections I'd ever seen. At the same time, everything else that happened after that was very unconventional. When you put it all together, it was highly unusual. Q. Who have you told about this? A. Only a few of the people that I work with that I thought might enjoy hearing about it. Q. You have experience photographing objects in the sky, don't you? A. Yes, in fact, it's been said I shoot way too much in the sky. I photograph just about every aerial and atmospheric phenomenon that's known. Everything from rainbows to lightening. I've done it all. But this was something very different. Q. M.L., what do YOU think it was? A. That's a good question. (Long pause.) Since the skies around D/FW are some of the busiest skies around the face of the planet, I can't say that it's not a plane or something of that kind. However, my instinct is this object was not something conventional that people see everyday. I would say it was something brand new in the commercial or military establishment or something that's paying us a visit from a long ways away. ** Photos *This is the first photo that M.L. Gray took of the UFO near Keller on Nov. 30, 1998. It's small, but don't worry. We blew it up for you. Go to the next photo. *Now isn't that better? See it's a big ball. Now what the heck could it be? *It looks like a planet, but it isn't. It obviously isn't a plane or a helicopter. Airport radar systems report nothing unusual in the skies at that time. What the heck is it? *Then for some strange reason, the object changed shape. It became flat like a pancake and dropped about 1,000 feet in three seconds. That proves it isn't a weather balloon, which is filled with hydrogen and rises in the sky. *Beam me up, Scotty. Or whoever you are! *The phone line in the photo gives you some perspective of the distance in the sky. *This shows the complete scale without the photo being blown up. A cloud is above the UFO. If you have a problem with this, don't blame us. We can't figure out what it is, and we've checked around. We're journalists, remember? And we swear this ain't trick photography or anything unethical like that. But certainly, it gives new meaning to the term Virtual Texan. =A9 1998 Star-Telegram
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 8 Sighting Report: Yulara, near Alice Springs NT From: Diane Harrison <tkbnetw@fan.net.au> Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 00:26:11 +1000 Fwd Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 20:36:20 -0500 Subject: Sighting Report: Yulara, near Alice Springs NT The Keith Basterfield Network Australasia E-Mail tkbnetw@fan.net.au http://www.fan.net.au/~tkbnetw **************************************************************** UFO Australian Research Network Hot Line Number 1800 77 22 88 Free Call **************************************************************** Sighting Report Location: Yulara, near Alice Springs NT Time: 0100 am Date: 13th January 1999 From: Keith Douglass, Alice Springs PO.Box 3205 Alice Springs Tel:08 8953 3023 Witness: Astronomer: Mathew Pearce, aged 23 years He said: I observed an object due south, around 10klm from Yulara, the object resembled a star, Silvery blue in colour. He said: I heard no noise, height around 15 degrees, south east of Yulara,near Uluru, Air's Rock, weather clear. Mathew said it looked like a planet where there shouldn't be one. This is the second time I have seen this but this time it was over the rock. I watched it for around 2 minutes then object just faded out. Regards Diane Harrison
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 8 Re: Abduction - Media influence From: Dave Baker <davbak@globalnet.co.uk> Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 17:04:19 -0000 Fwd Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 20:39:24 -0500 Subject: Re: Abduction - Media influence Greg, Kevin and list, In a recent issue of 'Fortean Times', Steve Sessions re-examines the Pascgoula case and cites both Gort, (the robot from 'The Day The Earth Stood Still') , and the Mutant from 'This Island Earth' as a possible basis for the 'robot-like aliens' reported by Parker and Higson. The link to the Mutant is actually just the 'crab-like claws' that Charlie mentioned, although believe that originally he described the 'robot's' hands as appearing "like mittens". Actually, in all the tens of thousands of 'aliens' depicted throughout comics, book-covers, films, TV and other media, it would probably be more surprising if some of the 'aliens' alleged to have been encountered by abductees or in 'landing cases' did *not* resemble an artistic creation somewhere. I myself have other examples; the 'brain-like' entities in the Dapple-Gray Lane case from 1971 resemble the bone-sucking Silicates in the rather nasty Peter Cushing flick "Island of Terror" from 1966. The alleged abduction of Fortunato Zanfretta in Genoa, Italy, in 1978 features dark green, 10-foot tall reptilian creatures that are virtual reproductions of the 'Gill-man' from the 1950's "Creature From The Black Lagoon" films. And on and on... But we can have a reversal of this too. I have a copy of Patrick Hughes 'Field Guide to Extraterrestrials' in front of me - ( I know that the artwork is pretty twee and cartoonish) - and a quick perusal shows critters reported in the 50s and 60s are pretty unique in UFO lore , but who have starring roles in artwork and film/TV from the 70s, 80s and 90s. I can spot aliens from Dr Who,Star Trek, and the Star Wars trilogy in this little book. Does this mean that the SFX guys examine UFO journals for inspiration, is it just co-incidence, or is it an example of the collective unconciouss? Which came first, the chicken or the egg? To me, it doesn't prove anything one way or the other, but a report should not be rejected purely because the 'entity' resembles something from the media which the witness/abductee may or may not have see. I mean, I'm told that I resemble bygone-but-trying-to-make-a-comeback popster Leo Sayer but if anyone saw me in the street and for some reason had to later describe me, surely no-one would suggest that they must have been watching Top Of The Pops the night before...<vbg> Dave Baker-Yorkshire UFO Society Greg and all A couple more examples...The 'mutant' from This Island Earth, which Greg alludes to, has been sited as the foundation for the 'robots' reported by Charlie Higson in the Pascagoula case, and also the robot Gort from As there are literally thousands of 'aliens' depicted throughout film, TV, and comics since all of these media began, it would probably be stranger if some of the 'aliens' reported by abductees did not resemble the fevered imaginations of artists and special effects make-up artists.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 8 Re: Robert Todd On MJ-12 From: Josh Goldstein <clearlt@pacbell.net> Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 04:43:55 -0800 Fwd Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 20:31:00 -0500 Subject: Re: Robert Todd On MJ-12 >Date: Sun, 07 Feb 1999 07:39:05 -0600 >From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Robert Todd On MJ-12 >>Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 21:06:32 EST >>To: updates@globalserve.net >>Subject: Re: Open Letter: MJ-12 & Dr. Wood <snip> >>Unfortunately, it is all too easy to create fake documents, >>especially when the perpetrators have the raw materials in their >>own filing cabinets, gathered from years of researching the >>Roswell incident, as in the case of Moore, Shandera, and >>Friedman. >Robert Todd Robert Todd, Ed Stewart, and Alfred Lehmberg: I read the above post and did not reply until I scanned a number of following posts to see if there was a reply by Stanton Friedman. There was not so I will put my bits in. I thank Ed Stewart for supporting Mr. Todd's above statements by posting his article that originally appeared in Just Cause. I read it when it was published and it certainly made me doubt any authenticity. I certainly suspected the idea of it coming to Mr. Shandera anonymously in the mail. If I remember correctly (memory suspect), the package had an Alamagordo postmark. When Bill Moore made his great "confession of sin" before MUFON he tarnished his name. I don't remember what year he claimed he began his stint with Doty for the OSI. When did he start? How long before Paul Bennewitz was driven over the edge? When Moore admitted he wanted to plant fake documents was when he drove the last nail in his coffin. I was very surprised when Stanton Friedman received his grant years later to study the MJ-12 documents. Whose decision was that? I would think that whoever wanted to grant would at least hire a bona fide researcher who was outside the loop. I have always suspected that these documents were products of one or more birds in the infamous aviary - a disinformation ploy. As was the "UFO Coverup Live" video. I suspect the above with the new documents. Alfred Lehmberg, Lately things have been peaceful on UpDates following the last nasty brouhaha. I am interested in your opinions - when presented in an intelligent and civil manner. I wish you could maintain that. Your response to Mr. Todd's above post was an attack characterized by name calling that makes me once again wonder about your character. I'm not saying this to support Mr. Todd. I just feel that to go that low is to call your own credibility into question. It also makes me wonder about how you serve the case of John Ford if you don't adhere to a civil standard to make your points.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 8 Congratulations to Jan Aldrich From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com> Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 13:28:53 -0500 Fwd Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 20:56:32 -0500 Subject: Congratulations to Jan Aldrich It was announced over the weekend that Jan Aldrich is the recipient of the prestigious Isabel Davis Award, presented each year by the Fund for UFO Research. Former Chairman Richard Hall made the announcement during the monthly meeting of the Executive Committee this past weekend. Hall's statement regarding this award, as well as other news items for February, has been posted to the FUFOR web site (www.fufor.org). Jan's involvement in UFOlogy has spanned more than three decades, and his seemingly tireless effort shows continuing dedication. My thanks join with those of the Fund.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 8 Congratulations to Jan Aldrich From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com> Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 13:28:53 -0500 Fwd Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 20:56:01 -0500 Subject: Congratulations to Jan Aldrich It was announced over the weekend that Jan Aldrich is the recipient of the prestigious Isabel Davis Award, presented each year by the Fund for UFO Research. Former Chairman Richard Hall made the announcement during the monthly meeting of the Executive Committee this past weekend. Hall's statement regarding this award, as well as other news items for February, has been posted to the FUFOR web site (www.fufor.org). Jan's involvement in ufology has spanned more than three decades, and his seemingly tireless effort shows continuing dedication. My thanks join with those of the Fund. Steve Kaeser
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 8 UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 4, Number 6 From: John Hayes <jhayes@cableinet.co.uk> Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 20:04:49 +0000 Fwd Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 21:09:01 -0500 Subject: UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 4, Number 6 UFO ROUNDUP Volume 4, Number 6 February 8, 1999 Editor: Joseph Trainor Masinaigan@aol.com CHILEAN TV STATION AIRS SATELLITE'S UFO VIDEO On Tuesday, January 26, 1999, TV viewers in Chile were astonished when a Santiago station broadcasted satellite video images of disc-shaped UFOs measuring hundreds of miles in diameter. The video images were aired by Television de la Universidad Catolica (TV-UC) on Canal (Channel) 13. The video footage was shot by Geostationary Orbital Environmental Satellite 8 (GOES-8) on two separate occasions a few years ago. According to Chilean ufologist Luis Sanchez Perry, the program "showed an infrared photo taken by GOES-8 on July 17, 1992, clearly showing a large disc-shaped object in outer space above the Pacific Ocean in front of (just west of) the Chilean coast." According to Mario Vilches, the gigantic saucer measured "400 kilometers (240 miles) in diameter." The July 1992 image was captured by Servicio Aereo Fotometrico Ltda., an airmapping business in Santiago de Chile, the national capital. "The lines that can be seen in front of the UFO belong to electromagnetic interference that came from the UFO," Sanchez explained. At the time the image was taken, GOES-8 was in a geostationary orbit 21,600 miles (36,000 kilometers) above Earth. The huge disc appears to be moving at the same orbital speed as the satellite, approximately 6,696 miles per hour (10,713 kilometers per hour). "Three more images were taken at 10-minute intervals, and the UFO came through very clear," Sanchez added. The second GOES-8 video was shot on April 7, 1996. Although the image disappeared very quickly from the GOES website, it was downloaded by Chile's Centro Meteorologico Regional de Antofagasta. This image "shows the UFO over the Atlantic in front of (just east of) the Brazilian coast." The GOES-8 video images were discussed during the broadcast by two ufologists, Dr. Mario Dussuel of Comite de Estudios de Fenomenos Aereos Anomalos (CEFAA) and Rodrigo Cuadra of Equipe Superior de Investigacion Ovniologica (ESIO). CEFAA is Chile's official national study group, composed of government agencies, local ufologists and the Fuerza Aerea de Chile, FACH (Chilean Air Force--J.T.) (Muchas gracias a Luis Sanchez Perry y Mario Vilches para esas noticias.) R. HAWASS BRIEFS MORE ROYALTY ON OSIRIS TOMB Dr. Zahi Hawass huddled with Sweden's King Gustav and Queen Sylvia last week and gave both monarchs details of his work on the newly-found tomb of Osiris. According to the Danish newspaper Elektra Bladet, Dr. Hawass, Egypt's Undersecretary of State for the Giza Monuments, met with "King Gustav, Queen Sylvia and 75 members of their family and staff at the royal castle in Stockholm. On this occasion, he revealed his most recent and secret finds in Giza." "'I have found a shaft going 29 meters (96 feet) vertically down into the ground, halfway between the Khefren (Khafre) pyramid and the Sphinx. At the bottom, which was filled with water, we found a burial chamber with four pillars. In the middle is a large granite sarcophagus, which I expect to be the grave of Osiris,' (Egyptian god of death) Zahi Hawass says." "After 11 years as manager of the Giza area and the pyramids, he is one of the most well-known people in Egypt." "'I have been digging in Egypt for more than thirty years, and up to this date, this is the most exciting discovery I have made,' says (Dr.) Hawass, who hasn't published his findings in his country at all." "We found the shaft in November (1998) and began pumping the water recently. So several years will pass before we have finished investigating this find.'" "'But when your queen (Denmark's Queen Margarethe two weeks ago) attended my lecture in Copenhagen and displayed such an interest and knowledge regarding Egyptology, I took the opportunity of initiating Her Majesty into the most recent find.'" (See Elektra Bladet for January 31, 1999, "Sandpit of Royalty" by Dorte Quist. Many thanks to Stig Agermose for forwarding this newspaper article.) (Editor's Comment: Finding the shaft in November 1998 confirms a prophecy of American seer Edgar Cayce. In the 1930s, Cayce predicted that "a shaft leading to the Hall of Records will be discovered in 1998." There may be more tunnels and passageways under the Giza plateau still to be found.) PENTAGON CHANGES NAME OF Y2K READINESS EXERCISE According to WorldNet Daily, the Pentagon is still planning a nationwide call-up of the National Guard for May 1 but has changed the name of the exercise. WorldNet Daily "has confirmed that the National Guard is indeed planning a nationwide mobilization test. But due to the publicity surrounding the original plans, the name has been changed from COMEX/MOBEX to Communications CPX," or Exercise COMMO CPX 99. Lt. Col. Kirk Krist, a spokesman for the Pentagon's Y2K Task Force, said the exercise is just a test of the Army's communications system in the event of Y2K-related blackouts and not a dress rehearsal for Operation Abacus. "'We are still planning on holding the COMEX/MOBEX but we have officially changed the name to COMMUNICATIONS CPX to avoid any assumptios that we plan to mobilize the entire (USA) National Guard on 31 December 1999. We do not plan to do that,' explained Lt. Col. Kirk Krist of the Y2K Task Force." "'The purpose of the exercise...is to test the high- frequency radio network the Guard will use in the event there is a failure of telephone communications" as a result of the expected Y2K computer crisis. Over 460,000 National Guardsmen in all fifty of the USA's states will participate in the three-day exercise beginning May 1, 1999." (Many thanks to Y2K Newswire for February 2, 1999 for this item.) FLYING DISC PHOTOGRAPHED IN NEW ZEALAND On Saturday afternoon, January 16, 1999, people relaxing on the beach in Greymouth, South Island, New Zealand, were startled by the cries of children, who were "pointing to the western horizon" where "a UFO was enjoying itself." The UFO, described as "a large opaque and shiny disc," zipped about in the blue sky over the Pacific Ocean for several minutes. "One intrepid adult took a photograph or two of the large opaque and shiny thing as it bounced, dived and then proceeded north in a flat trajectory. Everyone is waiting to see how the film comes out, which, considering the camera is not much more than a box Brownie, will be an event in itself." Greymouth is on the South Island's western shore about 160 kilometers (100 miles) west of Christchurch. (See the New Zealand newspaper The Press for January 21, 1999, "Unusual sighting at Greymouth." Many thanks to Errol Bruce-Knapp for forwarding this article.) FLYING TRIANGLE SPOTTED NEAR PRESTON, LANCASHIRE A "flying triangle" UFO was spotted last week by a local disc jockey, Peter H., at Broadgate, near Preston, Lancashire, UK. According to Tim Matthews of the Lancashire UFO Group, Peter H. "saw a triangle flying at low speed, approximately 30 knots, flying from left to right. This was certainly not a police helicopter...the triangle was somewhat larger than the jet fighters seen often over the area," and there was "a battery of red lights seen around its entire perimeter." "As it passed by, entirely silently and at a distance of about a quarter-mile, Peter noticed a bright light evident on the right side approximately halfway down the leading edge. This was almost an equilateral triangle--the triangle had a relatively broad back and probably at a 75-degree sweep." (Many thanks to Tim Matthews of LUFOG for this report.) WALK FARM MYSTERY HAS FELIXSTOWE FOLK BAFFLED Last week's strange doings at Walk Farm in Levington, Suffolk, UK fueled rumors of a UFO crash or landing, visitations by aliens and Men in Black (MIBs) setting up a secret base. "In what could be a case for Mulder and Scully from the science fiction television series The X-Files, peculiar sightings have been baffling bemused drivers as they drive along the Felixstowe peninsula." "Just off the (motorway) A-14, grey piles have appeared among the soil of Walk Farm, Levington." "Finally, toward the point, strange squat shelters have taken their place among the paddocks. Motorists also report seeing figures invading the farm, taking readings with some mysterious surveying equipment." "Just what is going on?" "According to a neighbour, there is a simple explanation for the grey X-piles. It is a sand of limestone that is to be sewn into the garden to improve the soil." "But as for the mysterious men and the squat buildings, the neighbour was clueless." "Our attempts (by the newspaper The Evening Star--J.T.) to contact the landowner, believed to be a Mr. Mayhew, have proven fruitless, further deepening the mysteries of Walk Farm." (See The Evening Star of Ipswich, Suffolk for January 29, 1999. Many thanks to Gerry Lovell of Far Shores for forwarding the newspaper article.) BLUE FIREBALL LIGHTS UP CALIFORNIA AND NEVADA "A small meteor streaked across the sky this morning (Tuesday, February 2, 1999), startling people from San Francisco to Las Vegas (Nev.) more than 400 miles (640 kilometers) away." "'It was bright and blue and really fantastic,' one caller told San Francisco radio station KCBS." "Radio stations in several other cities, including Santa Barbara and San Bernardino in southern California, also had people calling in about the mysterious light." "People reported seeing it for about five seconds, at 6 a.m." on February 2, 1999. "The object was probably a fireball, or 'bolide' according to Jose Olivarez, director of Chabot Observatory and Science Center in Oakland," California. ''From the description, I'd say it was probably a small meteor that entered the atmosphere,' he said, 'It's not unusual, but it was clear last night so a lot of people saw it.'" "Callers said the bright light zipped across the sky, moving from east to west and vanishing over the horizon." "Sometimes missle launches have been mistaken for meteors, but the (U.S.) Air Force said it had not launched a missile from Vandenburg Air Force Base." (See the San Jose Mercury for February 2, 1999. Many thanks to Arnold Veness for forwarding the newspaper article.) SKY BOOMS IN OKLAHOMA AND WEST VIRGINIA On Tuesday, February 2, 1999, at 7:30 p.m., a "Mystery Boom, similar to what has been reported in other areas" jolted the town of Elk City, located 100 miles (160 kilometers) west of Oklahoma City. Ufologist Jim Hickman reported, "I contacted the local police, and they reported multiple phone calls from concerned citizens, all reporting windows being shaken and a loud booming sound. I was monitoring the military aircraft (radio) channels at the time, and I noticed no unusual activities." Earlier that day, at 1:30 p.m. Eastern time, a similar boom was heard in and around the city of Morgantown, West Virginia (population 25,879), located on Highways 7 and 19 approximately 155 miles (240 kilometers) northeast of Charleston, the state capital. According to ufologist James Brown, the boom "was heard in the Morgantown, W.V. area about 1:30 p.m. The emergency center received several calls about it from Star City (population 1,251)" on Highway 7about six miles (9 kilometers) west of Morgantown, "and the Mileground area." "Local radio stations also received calls from areas several miles from the city. A representative from WAJR received calls from Brookhaven and Star City." "Several calls on the afternoon talk show were about the boom. One caller described it as a blast and stated it was heard in the Core and Westover (population 4,201) areas, as well. It was also described as 'loud' in the Cassville area." (Westover and Core are on Highway 7, respectively 3 and 11 miles west of Morgantown--J.T.) "One woman said it was definitely not a blast, but a sonic boom," adding that she used to live near an airport and heard then noise quite often. "A man 'heard it in the Point Marion Road area and attributed it to a local stone quarry. In a telephone interview, he commented that he felt the boom before he heard it." (Many thanks to Jim Hickman of Skywatch International and James Brown and Stan Gordon for these reports.) GALILEO COMPLETES FINAL FLYBY OF EUROPA On Sunday, January 31, 1999, the spacecraft Galileo performed its third and closest flyby of Europa, an ice-covered moon of Jupiter located 413,734,000 miles (661,974,400 kilometers) from Earth. Scientists at NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory in Pasadena, California "reported that the Galileo spacecraft executed a close flyby of Europa on Sunday, passing a scant 894 miles (1,417 kilometers) above the surface of Jupiter's frozen moon. Early indications are that the maneuver was a success, and all scientific data was stored on the spacecraft's tape recorder for later playback." "This latest flyby is the last of a series that began in late 1997 as part of the extended Galileo-Europa Mission (GEM). Scientists are intrigued by Europa because of mounting evidence that a liquid ocean exists beneath the frozen surface. Although the moon's surface temperature is a chilly minus 260 degrees (below zero) Fahrenheit, it's possible the warmth from a tidal tug of war between Jupiter and its revolving moons could be keeping large parts of Europa's ocean liquid." Photos from the moon show that "one area of Europa's southern hemisphere shows 'brown, linear ridges extending across the surface.' These are "thought to be the remnants of cryo-volcanic activity. Cryo- volcanoes (cold volcanoes) occur when liquid as partially frozen water erupts onto the Europan surface, freezing instantly in the extremely low temperatures so far from our own sun." "A geologically older, smoother surface, bluish in color, underlies the ridge system. The blue surface is composed of almost pure water ice," although there are "drab brownish spots and ridges" in the area. Europa is 1,942 miles (3,126 kilometers) in diameter and orbits Jupiter at a distance of 416,877 miles (670,900 kilometers). (Many thanks to Steve Wilson Sr. for this news story.) (Editor's Comment: The "brown spots" may be sediments uplifted by the ice from Europa's ocean floor.) SPANISH UFOLOGISTS PLAN NATIONWIDE SKYWATCH The ufological group Estudios de Enigmas Extraterrestres (EDENEX) of Torremolinos, Spain is planning a wide-ranging skywatch for the end of February. EDENEX members "will mobilize at strategic points throughout the mountains of Malaga" to watch for UFOs. Additional skywatches and followup conferences are being planned for Seville and Granada during the summer of 1999. (Muchas gracias a Pedro P. Canto para esa noticia.) ERROL BRUCE-KNAPP HOSTS RADIO SHOW IN CANADA Canadian ufologist Errol Bruce-Knapp, moderater of the highly-popular UFO Updates, is branching into radio. Bruce-Knapp joins Scott Robbins and John Kares as hosts of the new talk show Strange Days, Indeed on station CFRB in Toronto, Canada. Strange Days...Indeed is broadcast on Sunday at the following times: 11 p.m. Eastern, 10 p.m. Central, 9 p.m. Mountain, and 8 p.m. Pacific. CFRB broadcasts at 1010 AM and on the short wave band at 6.070 SW. Roundup readers can listen to Errol's show on their computer by accessing RealAudio which can be found at the website-- http://www.cfrb.com/cfrb.ram If you want to call in with UFO questions. dial this number: 1-800-561-2372. Join Errol and his co-hosts as they discuss the latest UFO sightings. from the UFO Files... 1965: ALIENS TRY TO ABDUCT PEOPLE IN ARGENTINA Two of the strangest abduction attempts on record occurred during February 1965 in the small town of Torrent in northern Argentina. "One night in the first week of February (1965), a man living at Torrent, near Santo Tome (in Corrientes province, about 560 kilometers (350 miles) north- northeast of Buenos Aires--J.T.) called his neighbours to come outside and observe five luminous objects flying overhead. Then a transparent craft landed, and from it emerged five 'Martians.'" The aliens were described as "nearly 2 metres high (six feet, four inches), each having only one eye in the centre of the forehead. On their heads were instruments giving off flashes of different colors." According to witness Rodrigo de Riana, "They entered a farmhouse and tried to sieze a man, but withdrew in the face of the firm attitude of the villagers," reboarded their craft "and flew away." "On February 6 (1965) however, they returned and were seen by many people. Once again they tried to catch a man and failed. He escaped and gave the alarm. The villagers turned out in strength and fired their shotguns at the 'Martians,' seemingly with no effect." The second foray proving equally unsuccessful, the aliens reboarded their craft and departed once more. They have not been seen since. (See the book THE HUMANOIDS, editor Charles Bowen, Henry Regnery Co., Chicago, Illinois, 1969, "The Humanoids in Latin America" by Gordon Creighton, page 109.) FUN UFO WEBSITES: Cryptozoologist Loren Coleman has plenty of weird sightings at his website. Check it out at http://www.agate.net/~cryptozoo/cryptohome.html The Adamski Foundation now has its own website. Devoted to the work of pioneer and highly-controversial ufologist George Adamski, their site can be found at http://www.gafintl-adamski.com Scott Corrales has updated his website with the latest Chupacabra sightings. Drop in any time at http://www.inexplicata.com Don't miss our parent website UFOINFO. This week's highlight includes the GOES-8 image (shown above) that appeared on Chile's TV-UC network recently. There's no shortage of other photos, features, news and fun at http://ufoinfo.com Back issues of UFO Roundup can be read, accessed and downloaded from our webpage. Feel free to drop in any time at this URL: http://ufoinfo.com/roundup/ Here's hoping our New Zealand readers had an enjoyable time during their Waitangi Day holiday on Saturday. We'll be back next week with more saucer news from around the planet, brought to you by "the paper that goes home--UFO Roundup." See you then! UFO ROUNDUP: Copyright 1999 by Masinaigan Productions, all rights reserved. Readers may download news items from UFO Roundup onto their websites or include them in newsgroups provided that they credit the newsletter and its editor by name and list the date of issue in which the item first appeared.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 8 Re: Cash-Landrum Case - What About Colby? From: Stephen Lewis <stephen.lewis@tsl.state.tx.us> Date: 8 Feb 1999 12:59:40 -0600 Fwd Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 21:32:22 -0500 Subject: Re: Cash-Landrum Case - What About Colby? [Non-Subscriber Post] Howdy listers, A friend just told me of his watching an A&E documentary on this case. With the recent announcement about Betty Cash's death, my friend commented on the lack of info on the youngest witness, Colby, who should now be about 24 years old. Does anyone know what he has to say about the case all these years later? According to the A&E show he was the person who originally 'let the cat outta the bag' to the doctors about his family members medical problems. However he was not a part of the documentary. Perhaps he has washed his hands of the UFO community. Curious SMiles http://www.elfis.net
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 8 Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net> Date: Mon, 08 Feb 99 16:04:45 PST Fwd Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 21:37:28 -0500 Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 14:58:03 -0600 (CST) >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net> >Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >>From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net> >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >>Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >>Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 22:02:15 -0500 Dennis and Greg, >Indeed, this is the approach taken by Robert Bartholomew & >George Howard in their UFOs & Alien Contact (Prometheus Books, >1998). From page 60: >"Of course, our interest with these contact cases is in the >_narrative content_ of the stories, not their truth or falsity >per se..." [my emphasis] As much as I like and admire Bob Bartholomew -- a genuinely good guy whose participation in ufology is something for which we all ought to be grateful -- I think that an approach like this is seriously misguided. Dreams and lies and veridical events are not the same things and would not be confused, or taken to be equally or synonymously meaningful, in any other context. >By the way, I would suggest that the Great American Airship wave >of 1896-7 was almost wholly media-driven, when it wasn't wholly >media created in the first place. Yet that doesn't stop it from >routinely turning up as UFO "fact" in much of the UFO >literature. Not so, in point of fact. When one speaks of "airships", one has to understand that sightings of same were reported well before the 1896- 97 wave, and not just in the United States. Examples include the structure seen over Ottawa, Ontario, on July 12, 1891, and the events of early 1892 in Russian Poland, plus other sightings that occurred in all sorts of times and places after and before 1896-97. Since I don't want to go into a long discourse here, I can only refer readers to the extended discussion in The UFO Encyclopedia, where I show that airship-like UFOs have been seen into the present. Dennis is right at least in part, however, when he blames 1896-97 media for whipping up hysteria and encouraging hoaxers. It is clear that the press of the period did not take the sightings seriously and consequently, as a way of ridiculing the concept, gave free rein to fantasizing, both inside and outside the editorial office. Fortunately, we do have other nations' presses, plus a number of firsthand accounts from the period not dependent on journalistic confabulation, to guide us through the thicket. Who said ufology is easy? Jerry Clark
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 8 Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net> Date: Mon, 08 Feb 99 16:18:33 PST Fwd Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 21:40:00 -0500 Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 17:14:02 -0500 <snip> >Hmmm...I'm in the happy position of agreeing with everybody. >Jerry, I, too, think Kevin's catch doesn't mean all that much, >for all the reasons you give, but in my view Kevin did make a >contribution to the discussion by bringing it up. Greg, I mean no disrespect to Kevin, who's one of the good guys. I just happen -- like you -- not to be persuaded by what I have seen so far of his attempts to explain the abduction phenomenon. Still, I do look forward to seeing his argument in full. I have no doubt it will be interesting and informative, even if it turns out not to be fully convincing. Jerry Clark
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 8 Re: Pope On A Rope From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net> Date: Mon, 08 Feb 99 16:22:13 PST Fwd Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 21:54:32 -0500 Subject: Re: Pope On A Rope >Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 15:57:21 -0500 >From: Andy Roberts <Brigantia@compuserve.com> >Subject: Pope On A Rope >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >The revelations in today's 'Sunday Times' regarding Nick Pope >and his 'abduction' are not at all new and there is a history to >them which many listers may be unaware of. I'm glad that this little episode is keeping our British friends amused. To me, however, it's one hell of a bore, much ado about not much at all. Nick Pope is hardly the only apparently sane human being who believes he has had an abduction experience, and who can blame him for not wanting to broadcast his conviction? I hope against hope that this one gets a rest soon. Jerry Clark
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 9 Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net> Date: Mon, 08 Feb 99 16:34:25 PST Fwd Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 04:41:24 -0500 Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 23:49:11 +0000 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >From: John Rimmer <magonia@magonia.demon.co.uk> >Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net> >>Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >>Date: Sun, 07 Feb 99 11:29:03 PST >>Kevin, there is no such thing as "the abduction phenomena." >>Check your dictionary for the difference between "phenomena" and >>"phenomenon." There are "abduction phenomena" (missing time, >>gray aliens, anomalous scars, and the like), and then there is >>"the abduction phenomenon" (the generic issue we're discussing >>here). >>Jerry Clark My friend John Rimmer intones: >As Jerry seems to be the self-appointed grammarian-in-chief to >the world of ufology, throwing his [sic]s around willy-nilly, >let's have a look at this alleged linguistic horror. >Any objection to the phrase "the abduction phenomena" must be >based on the assumption that a plural (phenomena) cannot be >linked to a singular (abduction). He admits however that there >are a number of separate phenomena related to abductions, so how >are these to be referred to, in the absence in English of a >plural definite article analagous to le/les in French? "Phenomena" is plural, "phenomenon" singular. When using "phenomena," you don't put "the" in front of it except in a context like this: The abduction phenomena that interest me most are missing-time and multiple-participant cases. You could say, I am interested in abduction phenomena, but you can't say -- at least if you care about grammar, as we self- appointed grammarians-in-chief do by definition -- I am interested in the abduction phenomena. If you believe the abduction phenomenon (which is simply a shorthand way of characterizing the concept that some people think aliens have kidnapped them -- whatever the true cause or causes of that conviction) comprises a variety of phenomena (as, in fact, I do), the English language permits you all sorts of ways to express it. One, however, is not "the abduction phenomena." Let's use another phrase here, UFO sightings. You don't say, I am interested in the UFO sightings. You say, I am interested in UFO sightings. No "the." Got it? You can do that without implying that you think all UFO sightings arise from a single cause. Cheers, Gerry [sic] Clarke [sic]
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 9 Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net> Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 17:54:18 -0600 (CST) Fwd Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 04:49:19 -0500 Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 17:10:20 -0500 >These are excellent questions, Dennis. Thank you, Greg! >I don't know much about Chupacabras, but I'm not impressed by >arguments for the reality of crop circles or mutilations. >Clearly (in my view) there's a large element of fantasy in both >areas -- people are quick to believe in the improbable, without >real evidence. And I suppose none of us should suggest the same about abductions? >Still, I think these aren't the equivalents to the abduction >phenomenon that I wondered if anyone could find. Both crop >circles and mutilations start with something tangible -- >bashed-down circles of grain, and dead animals. The circles may >have been created by hoaxers, and the animals may have died of >natural causes, but they were there, so the fantasy started from >a real stimulus. <snip> >Further, neither of these preoccupations has the psychological >force that abduction belief has. I'm not saying that you can't >find a crop circle or mutilation fanatic here and there, but >you're not (as far as I know) going to find a large number of >people suffering emotional earthquakes over these things, as you >do with abductions. (Nor will you find that with people into >bigfoot, or the Loch Ness monster.) > Well, now you're raising the bar. Oiginally you asked for examples of media influence on society and culture. I cited crop circles, animal mutilations, and Chupacabras as possible examples. Now you say these don't have the psychological force (or emotionality) of abductions. But I think if you were to delve into their respective mailbags, you would find that they do indeed, ditto the Elvis mailbag. >You do find emotional explosions about alleged satanic cults and >visions of the Virgin Mary, but these have obvious roots in >established religion. Maybe I should bring up fictitious memories of childhood sexual abuse at this point? >Maybe somewhere in the new age arena we might find something >with no obvious cultural origin that holds people in as strong >an emotional grip as abductions do. Belief in angels? >Channeling? Alternative medicine? I'm not yet convinced -- I >don't think the emotional force with these things is nearly as >strong -- but maybe this is where we should look. You may have to reformulate that first sentence for us. Or for me, at least. What were the Salem witch trials all about, for God's sakes, if not emotional force? Are you absolutely certain and confident in asserting that abductions have "no obvious cultural origin"? If so, would you care to promote a falsifiable theory as to why you think so? Dennis
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 9 Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net> Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 18:12:26 -0600 (CST) Fwd Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 04:57:02 -0500 Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com> >Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 22:05:57 EST >To: updates@globalserve.net >Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >Jerry, I know the difference between phenomena and phenomenon, >just as I know the difference between there, their and they're, >though I sometimes use the wrong one (though with spell checker, >they're all spelled right). I even know the difference between >effect and affect. And I know that there is no such thing as the >Congressional Medal of Honor but I don't correct people (well, > not always) when they say that. <snip> >KRandle Kevin, List, Well, that may be as is. However, I would like to inform everyone within earshot that I am now accepting donations for the Widow of the Unknown Soldier Fund, or WUSF. Need I point out that their children are starving? Checks, money orders and credit cards only, please! Dennis
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 9 Tim Matthews From: Max Burns <AlienHype@aol.com> Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 19:18:05 EST Fwd Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 05:12:11 -0500 Subject: Tim Matthews ----- Subject: Re: Tim Matthews (aka Tim Hepple) Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 09:00:10 +0900 From: Duncan M. Roads <nexus@peg.apc.org> To: <AlienHype@AOL.COM>, <matthews@zetnet.co.uk> I really wonder why anyone wastes any time playing with this guy. His emails to NEXUS portrays a person who comes across as one with "a kangaroo loose in the top paddock". I take a moment to repost what I posted last year when he was frothing at the mouth over various and sundry. Tim Mathews - who took a swipe at Linda Moulton Howe and her interview published the August-September 1998 issue of NEXUS - has quite a diverse history. According to Lobster #34 Tim Mathews (aka Tim Hepple) is very well known in extreme right-wing groups as an agent provocateur. He has been connected to the intelligence front/asset known as Combat 18, and to the Israeli intelligence linked Searchlight newspaper. Judging by his ranting comments about the likelihood of NEXUS linking him with the intelligence community - I'd say he fantasises about being an 'agent' quite a lot. Although, having said that, Australian intelligence (an oxymoron if ever there was one) has often seen fit to use deniable assets with questionable mental states to infiltrate and agitate target groups of various political or religious persuasions. For those interested there was an update on Tim Hepple/Matthews in Lobster #35 in which Tim admits to joining political groups in order to pass on names and addresses to their enemies. He actually seems quite proud of it! regards Duncan Duncan M. Roads Editor, Nexus Magazine PO Box 30, Mapleton Qld 4560 Australia Tel: +61 (0)7 5442 9280; Fax: +61 (0)7 5442 9381 http://www.peg.apc.org/~nexus/ "The nature of the universe is such that ends can never justify the means. On the contrary, the means always determine the end." (Aldous Huxley)
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 9 Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net> Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 19:19:26 -0500 Fwd Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 09:48:42 -0500 Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >From: Leanne Martin <leanne_martin@hotmail.com> >To: updates@globalserve.net >Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >Date: Sun, 07 Feb 1999 20:21:01 PST >>An important piece missing from all these arguments for media >>influence would be other examples of this purported phenomenon >>at work. That is, can anyone think of something else in real >>life with the emotional force of the abduction phenomenon that >>clearly, indisputably was created by pop culture? (Where are the >>social scientists? Why is a complex question like this one, >>which ought to be informed by specialized professional >>knowledge, left to amateurs like Kevin, me, Mark Cashman, Martin >>Kottmeyer, and Jerry Clark?) >Of course!!!! You may have amnesia about the true effects of >the Orsone Welles "War Of The Worlds" broadcast on American >society?? What better proof do you need? A radio drama clearly >labeled a work of fiction having massive psychological impact on >a few individuals. They in turn passed on the panic and so it >spread. Ah. Well, first the drama wasn't so clearly labelled fiction. It was presented as if it was news. It began as if it was a broadcast of dance music. The music was interrupted by a news bulletin -- a meteor has fallen. Successive news bulletins told us about the Martians emerging from the meteor, shooting people with their heat rays, and so on. Only at the end was the frame of a news broadcast breached, and the show revealed as radio drama. Second, recent research (documented on the Project 1947 list) seems to show that the broadcast didn't cause nearly the panic most people believe. Third, even if a certain amount of panic did arise, it ended the day after the broadcast. That makes the whole affair not really comparable to the abduction phenomenon, which has persisted for more than 20 years. >>I can think of two such examples, and -- though I'm no social >>scientist and have no real standing to argue this point (an >>admission I wish others in this debate would just as cheerfully >>make) -- my examples seem to show that the abduction phenomenon >>can't have been generated the same way. >>One example would be the belief that Elvis is alive, fervently >>maintained by people who think they've seen him. And there's a >>parallel belief (set forth in a fascinating book by Raymond >>Moody, called 'Elvis After Life', I think) that Elvis has >>appeared to people after his death, functioning in effect as an >>angel. Where did this come from? Well, most likely from the >>intense fascination, verging on worship, that Elvis had for many >>people when he was alive. >Do they see the fat, ill, old Elvis that actually died or the >younger, virile Elvis that set rock'n'roll aflame? They see a verson of the old Elvis, though normally healthy and slimmed down, since the mythology normally says that he faked his death to escape from his unpleasant life. Sometimes he's bearded as well. Too bad nobody sees the young one. (Preferably in the black leather suit he wore in his 1968 TV comeback, or driving the pink Cadillac he bought when he was young and his first record hit!) ><snip> >>My second example would be vampire cults, though I'm not sure >>"cult" is the proper word for them. They've been documented in >>at least two books. People drink each others' blood; many of >>them wear clothes and create environments based on vampire books >>and movies, especially Anne Rice's novels. Again, there's a >>one-to-one correspondence between pop culture and the phenomenon >>at hand. The vampire books and movies exist; people in the >>vampire groups consciously imitate them. They don't invent some >>other kind of vampire, a vampire that, for instance, might drink >>only animals' blood, or might love sunlight. > >A very good example to chew over. Like 'abductions' these >'Goths',as they like to be called (at least here in Oz) have >taken something in from popular culture and adapted it for their >lives, or adapted their lives to it. They will still draw their >dole money (unemployment benefits) and use the 'free' medical >system here (lucky us, eh?), they still buy food and other >services, etc. Obviously real vampires have no need for that but >the Goths still have deal with reality. >How does this parallel 'abductions'? People who have claims of >being abducted must still relate to the real world, at least >those who haven't totally lost it. For the most part something >has happened in their lives that they need to deal with and >convert into one or more experiences within their makeup so that >they can live an otherwise normal life. Some people who undergo >severe and occasionally repeated trauma develop split >personalities. These other personalities can cope with their >stressors so that their main personality can remain 'normal' in >the mind of the indivual. Well, I don't know about your down-under bloodsuckers, but the overwhelming majority of the ones here don't really claim to be vampires. They just enjoy acting the role. That makes them very different from abductees, who claim experiences with something outside ordinary reality. Greg Sandow
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 9 Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net> Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 20:11:21 -0500 Fwd Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 09:53:56 -0500 Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality Work like you don't need the money. Love like you've never been hurt. Dance like nobody's watching. http://www.gregsandow.com >Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 14:58:03 -0600 (CST) >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net> >Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >Greg, >I find it somewhat ironic that elsewhere on this list, if not in >this particular thread, you've also referred to Hopkins's >mailbag, which you've also been allowed to dip into and read at >random. >Let's call it the Case of the Two Mail Bags. Clearly, you >believe that one mailbag (abductions) is worth pursuing in much >greater depth than the other mail bag (Elvis sightings). You >also seem to think that the Hopkins mailbag is relatively free >of media (and perhaps cultural) influence, whereas the contents >of the Elvis bag are attributable (seemingly) to nothing but >media influence. Well, actually three mailbags. At the Weekly World News, I was also able to root around in the mailbag full of letters from people who'd seen Batboy, a creature the News made up -- half bat, half human, and very dangerous -- which had escaped from a federal facility. These letters divided into two obvious categories. Some were clearly from the News's college-age readers, who know the paper makes up its stories, and love to play along. These letters were usually typed, took the whole thing to a higher level of nonsense -- by claiming, for instance, that Batboy only ate pomegranates -- and included delicious faked photos. The other letters were from the News's, um, general readership, who believe every word. Most of these letters were written in pencil, and recounted fleeting alleged sightings (out in the woods while hunting, for example). But I digress. I'm very lucky to have had a chance to read both the Elvis and the abduction letters, and I wish more people with strong opinions on abduction research could do the same. The two mailbags were very different. People writing about Elvis, for one thing, were certain they had seen him. Beyond that, their letters had little in common. What Elvis was doing, how he looked, what he said (if he said anything), what he said he'd been doing all these years -- all those things varied from letter to letter. The abduction writers, on the other hand, overwhelmingly do _not_ say they thought they'd been abducted. They're quite explicit about this. They say, in letter after letter, that they have no idea whether they've been abducted, but that they hope Budd can tell them whether abduction might explain things they say have been happening to them all their lives. They also don't describe alien beings of any kind (beyond shadowy presences near their beds). The experiences they do mention are consistent from letter to letter -- lights in their room that they couldn't explain, presences by the bed, UFO sightings, cases of missing time serious enough to cause a family uproar, prolonged searches, and calls to police. Many of the letters sound distressed, while, by contrast, the Elvis letters were mostly very calm. These are facts. How the facts should be interpreted is another story. In my view (factual part of message ends, interpretive part begins), it's notable that the people writing to Budd don't describe the most vivid parts of the standard abduction narrative. Nobody's taking them anywhere, they aren't floating in the are, they don't see big-eyed aliens, they aren't subject to medical procedures, they don't have disappearing pregnancies. It's true, of course, that they're all writing because they've read Budd's books, or seen him speak at a conference, or seen him on TV. So clearly he's inspired them to communicate, and it's not unreasonable to wonder whether he somehow planted the abduction story in their minds as well. But anyone who thinks he did that -- or that they're catching the abduction story from the media at large -- needs to explain why they don't regurgitate that story in their letters, why they almost uniformly relate only these muted, relatively non-compelling, peripheral parts of it. >So let's assume you get your wish and the entire social science >department of a major university descends on these two sacks of >mail. What would happen? I suspect both subjects would be >approached from the same discipline, ie., some (perhaps >particuliarized) form of phenomenology. Both reports (sightings >of alien abductors and Elvis) would no doubt be treated as >sociological facts, by definition. But I doubt that any >sociologist worth his salt would even begin to approach the >assumption that what was being seen, experienced and reported in >one mailbag was indeed the original, real Elvis. Some could have >been impersonators on their way to work, for example. For that >matter, I have a cousin who is a pretty good ringer for Elvis, >or at least the Thin Elvis. >Similarly, they wouldn't regard it as their brief or province to >establish the reality of UFO visitations, simply because it >wouldn't ultimately make any difference to them, just as it >wouldn't make any ultimate difference, sociologically speaking, >if, by some miracle, Elvis were still alive. For one reason, >they would quickly come to the conclusion that if A saw Elvis in >San Francicso at a certain time and date, B couldn't have seen >the real Elvis in New Jersey at the same time, unless the >sociologists want to dip into the phenomenon referred to as >bilocation, typically (but not always) associated with Saints >and other religious figures. In other words, all the letters are >real (as sociological facts), even if none of them are real >physical facts. (That is, they couldn't all have seen Elvis.) Dennis, I'm not quite sure what you're getting at here. As far as I know, when social scientists study any phenomenon, they absolutely need to know whether it has any obvious cause. Take, for instance, the psychologists (well, not quite a social science, but close enough) who've looked at abductions. Their very first move is to explain why they don't think the abductions are really happening, or else to make it clear, without explanation, that they take that view. Why? Because there's no point in finding a psychological explanation if abductions are real. Sociologists tend to look at real social phenomena. Suicide, for instance -- Durkheim's study of that in the 19th century was the beginning of modern sociology. The first thing they normally do is gather data. Who commits suicide? What ethnic, religious, social, economic groups do they belong to? At what point in their lives do they kill themselves? An approach to abduction letters or Elvis letters would be similar. A psychologist might look at content, but a sociologist would first look at who sent them, and only then try to correlate content with the various categories of people who were writing. Social scientists might also be interested in how the stories spread. What gave people the idea that Elvis was out there to be seen, or that they'd be believed if they wrote a letter saying they'd seen him? Eventually, any social scientist is likely to theorize -- to come up with an overall explanation for what's happening. But if you're trying to explain Elvis letters, you have to know whether it's reasonable to say that Elvis is really alive. People seeing someone generally known to be dead represent a rather different social phenomenon from people who claim to see an elusive celebrity, or bigfoot, or a serial killer on the ten most wanted list. Sociologists examining abduction letters would clearly have to make up their minds whether abductions might be real, just as psychologists who study abductions do. Yes, it's possible to examine the letters for what they tell us of the social ramifications of abduction belief -- that's possible and interesting whether abductions are real or not. But one's opinion of the letter-writers is obviously going to be affected by whether you think abductions are real, and good social scientists know that. Cultural theorists might be the one kind of social scientist who'll theorize without bothering to gather quantifiable data. But even they are likely to express some opinion on the reality of something like abductions. There's an abduction book by Jodi Dean, a political scientist who uses a cultural theory approach. She's very sympathetic to abductees, and was attacked by Frederick Crews in the New York Review of Books because she refused to say that abductions were _not_ real. As she told me, and recounts in a paper, she first became interested in abductions by reading Phil Klass's attack on them. She found him so excessive that his excesses became a phenomenon worth studying, in her view. What cultural interests does a believe in abduction reality threaten? That was the question that led to her book. And while it's theoretically possible to write about this without asking whether abductions are real, it's not humanly likely. Greg Sandow
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 9 'Sightings' & Firmage - Bell & Hoagland From: Stephen Xanthos <Alpha525@idt.net> Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 00:04:06 -0500 Fwd Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 10:15:14 -0500 Subject: 'Sightings' & Firmage - Bell & Hoagland [Non-Subscriber Post] Art, The following is a posting that I wrote on your bbs. I must say that I was surprised that you allowed Mr. Bara's comments concerning Sightings and Mr. Joseph Firmage to be posted on your main page. By allowing this posting on your main page it appears that you have totally disregarded one side of this issue and that you have, in effect, declared your allegiance to Mr. Hoagland and his theories. My fear is now that you appear to have taken sides in this issue, we will no longer enjoy interviews with guests such as Mr. Firmage or anyone else who may be at odds with Mr. Hoagland or his theories. I have read Mr. Bara�s posting and I would like to comment. It is curious to note that Mr. Bara has admonished "Sightings" and personally attacked Mr. Joseph Firmage in his writing. Mr. Bara seems to be upset with Sightings for allowing guests on the radio show who openly question Richard Hoagland�s scientific theories or his credibility. I say "seems to be" because it is the only time I can recall that I have heard Mr. Bara or anyone else associated with The Enterprise Mission, publicly complain about Mr. Rense�s radio show. I have listened to these broadcasts and in my opinion Mr. Rense has always conducted himself in an objective and professional manner and, if I am not mistaken, he has extended an open invitation to Mr. Hoagland to appear as a guest to present his side of this issue. So, as far as I am concerned, Mr. Bara�s comments directed at the "Sightings" radio show are absolutely baseless. Mr. Bara�s comments concerning Mr. Joseph Firmage are simply mean spirited. I read Mr. Firmage�s statement and as a result I concluded that Mr. Firmage has some difficulty believing Mr. Hoagland�s claims and his method of scientific investigation. In his statement, Mr. Firmage states that he had provided a financial grant to Mr. Hoagland to see if there was any "there" there. I suspect that whatever Mr. Hoagland provided to Mr. Firmage, it was not enough to convince him that his grant was spent productively, and if Mr. Hoagland did indeed accept the funding than Mr. Firmage has every right to publicly comment upon Mr. Hoagland�s research. It is curious to note that Mr. Bara now questions Mr. Firmage�s intelligence and integrity with his statement: "Obviously the acquisition of large sums of money is not dependant on the possession of a large degree of intellect or integrity.", and causes me to wonder how important was integrity when Mr. Hoagland deposited Mr. Firmage�s financial grant into his account. Respectfully, Stephen J. Xanthos Alpha525@idt.net
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 9 Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@connectmmic.net> Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 00:06:54 -0500 Fwd Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 10:22:19 -0500 Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >Date: Sat, 06 Feb 1999 17:44:44 -0500 >To: "UFO UpDates Subscribers":; >From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: UFO UpDate: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@connectmmic.net> >Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >Date: Sat, 06 Feb 1999 13:16:29 -0500 Just wondering, A couple of days ago, I wrote a post to Kevin Randle and Mark Cashman. I presented evidence concerning the questionable reliability of testimony from a witness submitted to a very high stress situation and I applied the reasoning to the abduction phenomena. The pertinence of the matter in the study of abductions cannot be contested. It is very unconfortable for any investigator. I do recall the "make reality fit within your own boundaries" syndrome has been mentioned by Hynek and Vall=E9e. But this idea does not seem to have been clearly understood by modern researchers who are still at each other's throats - so to speak - when it comes to the validity of witness testimony in the context of abduction. I offered the idea that abductologists and investigators may be on the wrong track if they rely solely on witness testimony for argumentation and understanding of the whole phenomena. I suggested that, maybe, _other_ means should me considered. I my view, the whole testimony concept should be seriously addressed and new avenues explored. Never got a peep. Sure, the quibble got going between the big shots of ufology, from nay saying to congratulations. Can someone explain me the rules of the new game in town?
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 9 Y2K and UFOs From: Tim D. Brigham <devilsad@ksinc.net> Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 00:05:35 -0600 Fwd Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 10:30:31 -0500 Subject: Y2K and UFOs >Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 20:04:49 +0000 >To: Masinaigan <Masinaigan@aol.com> >From: John Hayes <jhayes@cableinet.co.uk> >Subject: UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 4, Number 6 > UFO ROUNDUP >Volume 4, Number 6 >February 8, 1999 >Editor: Joseph Trainor >Masinaigan@aol.com <snips> >PENTAGON CHANGES NAME OF Y2K READINESS EXERCISE >According to WorldNet Daily, the Pentagon is still planning a >nationwide call-up of the National Guard for May 1 but has >changed the name of the exercise. >WorldNet Daily "has confirmed that the National Guard is indeed >planning a nationwide mobilization test. But due to the >publicity surrounding the original plans, the name has been >changed from COMEX/MOBEX to Communications CPX," or Exercise >COMMO CPX 99. >Lt. Col. Kirk Krist, a spokesman for the Pentagon's Y2K Task >Force, said the exercise is just a test of the Army's >communications system in the event of Y2K-related blackouts and >not a dress rehearsal for Operation Abacus. >"'We are still planning on holding the COMEX/MOBEX but we have >officially changed the name to COMMUNICATIONS CPX to avoid any >assumptios that we plan to mobilize the entire (USA) National >Guard on 31 December 1999. We do not plan to do that,' explained >Lt. Col. Kirk Krist of the Y2K Task Force." >"'The purpose of the exercise...is to test the high- frequency >radio network the Guard will use in the event there is a failure >of telephone communications" as a result of the expected Y2K >computer crisis. >Over 460,000 National Guardsmen in all fifty of the USA's states >will participate in the three-day exercise beginning May 1, >1999." (Many thanks to Y2K Newswire for February 2, 1999 for >this item.) Y2K is a subject which I have seen discussed on UFO web pages, in UFO discussion groups (not this one though, at least as far as I have seen), email and print UFO related bulletins, etc. Not until now did I really bother to ask why. The Y2K issue is one that interests me, as it probably interests most people to some degree or another, but why is it being more and more commonly associated with UFOs, or is this just an incorrect perception on my part? Why do publications which cover UFOs seem more likely to cover Y2K than, say, a bird watching mailing list, a journal on evolutionary biology or anything else? I do not see the Clinton impeachment affair (no pun) mentioned in American UFO publications or discussion groups, and that is a major news event in US circles, so why Y2K? I ask this with no disrespect to the UFO Roundup crew (their e-zine is one of the best ways to catch up on the happenings in the UFO field, IMO), I mean this as a general question regarding what some people seem to feel is some sort of relationship between the subjects (or else it wouldnt be covered). In what way does Y2K relate to UFOs? Is it some conspiritorial aspect? hints of government quietly planning for social instability (as some maintain they must do for 'when the reality of UFOs is disclosed'? My fear is that it merely provides fodder for those who say that the UFO field is just "saucer groupies" who are all millenialists, paranoid people awaiting any sign of armaggeddon, or people who have nothing to do but await the end of the world, be it brought by "the alien threat" or riots in the streets. Tim Brigham )+( www.ksinc.net/~devilsad/ufo.htm The Devil's Advocate www.ksinc.net/~devilsad/ring.htm Operation MindPhuck "Better to go hungry than to feast on lies." )+(
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 9 The Millennium Report - February 8, 1999 From: Paul Anderson - TMP / CPR-Canada <psa@direct.ca> Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 22:09:33 -0800 Fwd Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 10:31:55 -0500 Subject: The Millennium Report - February 8, 1999 The Millennium Report - February 8, 1999: Contrail Updates, New "Radar Circle" Anomalies, Space News and More! _____________________________ Welcome to The Millennium Report, the news service of The Millennium Project, an independent research organization initiated in January 1999 as an alternative source of news and information to the maintream media. TMP was founded by future studies researcher Paul Anderson, also director of Circles Phenomenon Research Canada. TMR is updated weekly or as breaking news develops. This free e-mail summary is available by subscription; to be added to or removed from the mailing list, send your request and e-mail address to: psa@direct.ca A web edition of TMR is available on the TMP web site. Where possible, external links are provided directly to original sources. If a link is no longer working or a document is unavailable, please notify TMP by e-mail at psa@direct.c Main Web Site (Frames): http://persweb.direct.ca/psa The Millennium Report: http://persweb.direct.ca/psa/tmr.html Special Research Projects: http://persweb.direct.ca/psa/srp.html _____________________________ In This Report: SPECIAL RESEARCH PROJECTS Contrail Reports and Feedback: Sightings from Across the US http://persweb.direct.ca/psa/conrep.html Mystery Contrails Said Analyzed to Be Ethlyene Dibromide http://www.sightings.com/ufo2/contrailsanalyzed.htm Contrails: Mass Poisoning? http://www.sightings.com/ufo2/contrailsmassp.htm New Radar Anomalies: More "Circles in the Sky" http://persweb.direct.ca/psa/radar99.html _____________________________ Mystery Radio Signal from Near the Moon? http://members.aol.com/phikent/orbit/orbitback16.html New Craft Sweeps Sky For Clues To Solar System's History http://www.csmonitor.com/durable/1999/02/05/fp1s5-csm.shtml Spain Joins NASA's ET Search http://abcnews.go.com:80/sections/science/DailyNews/life990205.html Russian Space Mirror Fails to Unfold http://www.sightings.com/ufo2/rusrefl2.htm Kitty Hawk II: NASA Planning First Airplane Flight on Mars in 2003 http://cnn.com/TECH/space/9902/02/mars.airplane/index.html New Saturn-Sized Planet Found Around Nearby Star http://news.bbc.co.uk/low/english/sci/tech/newsid_270000/270532.stm UFO Roundup 4.6, February 8 http://www.ufoinfo.com/roundup/v04/rnd04_06.html UFO Roundup 4.5, February 1 http://www.ufoinfo.com/roundup/v04/rnd04_05.html "Ether" Makes a Comeback in Physics http://www.nytimes.com/library/national/science/020299sci-essay.html New "Triangle UFO" Video from UK http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~kenm/main.htm Whiskeytown Plant May Be Rare Form of Life http://www.redding.com/news/1999/Tuesday/nws30126.htm ____________________________ To be added to or removed from this mailing list, send your request and e-mail to: psa@direct.ca ____________________________ =A9 TMP, 1999 ____________________________ For further information or correspondence, contact: Paul Anderson Founder / Director THE MILLENNIUM PROJECT Web Site : http://persweb.direct.ca/psa Director CIRCLES PHENOMENON RESEARCH CANADA Affiliate of Circles Phenomenon Research International Main Web Site (frames): http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Cavern/3310 1999 Updates: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Cavern/3310/1999.html Representative BLT RESEARCH, INC. Suite 202 - 2086 West 2nd Avenue, Vancouver, BC V6J 1J4 Tel / Fax: 604.731.8522 E-Mail: psa@direct.ca
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 9 Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality From: Ted Viens <drtedv@freewwweb.com> Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 00:16:17 -0600 Fwd Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 10:42:20 -0500 Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 14:58:03 -0600 (CST) >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net> >Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >>From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net> >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >>Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >>Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 22:02:15 -0500 ><Giant snip> >>The match that lit the tinder might have been the Elvis >>sightings invented ten years or so ago by the Weekly World News, >>whose editors really do believe that they started the whole >>Elvis-is-alive phenomenon. Certainly they received thousands of >>letters from people who said they, too, had seen Elvis (I saw a >>mailbag full of those letters at the News' office in Lantana, >>Florida, and I opened many of them). Here you have an almost >>one-to-one correspondence between media story and real-life >>counterpart. The Weekly World News prints the story, and people >>immediately write in with stories of their own. ><snip> ><Greg Sandow >Greg, >I find it somewhat ironic that elsewhere on this list, if not in >this particular thread, you've also referred to Hopkins's >mailbag, which you've also been allowed to dip into and read at >random. >Let's call it the Case of the Two Mail Bags. Clearly, you >believe that one mailbag (abductions) is worth pursuing in much >greater depth than the other mail bag (Elvis sightings). You >also seem to think that the Hopkins mailbag is relatively free >of media (and perhaps cultural) influence, whereas the contents >of the Elvis bag are attributable (seemingly) to nothing but >media influence. >So let's assume you get your wish and the entire social science >department of a major university descends on these two sacks of >mail. What would happen? I suspect both subjects would be >approached from the same discipline, ie., some (perhaps >particuliarized) form of phenomenology. Both reports (sightings >of alien abductors and Elvis) would no doubt be treated as >sociological facts, by definition. But I doubt that any >sociologist worth his salt would even begin to approach the >assumption that what was being seen, experienced and reported in >one mailbag was indeed the original, real Elvis. Some could have >been impersonators on their way to work, for example. For that >matter, I have a cousin who is a pretty good ringer for Elvis, >or at least the Thin Elvis. <snip> >One final thought that just came to me. Since I think you would >agree that not every letter that Hopkins et al receives is the >real thing, what percentage of the whole do you think such false >starts represent? And to what do you attribute their cause(s)? >Any good sociologist worth his or her salary would probably want >to look into several of these cases as well, as a control >population if nothing else. Actually, so would any really good >ufologist. >Dennis Unknown even to himself, Dennis gives us veritas nativus; an innocent truth. Nothing would further our understanding of this abduction phenomenon more than having respected sociology departments devote student lab projects to the study of the mailbags of these researchers. The Elvis mailbags could be used as a control. Under the direction of respected leaders in the field and a secured system to insure anonymity, I would believe that Hopkins, Strieber, Jacobs, and Mack would make available the deeply private letters sent to them. With carefully chosen cataloging and analysis and a sample size of at least a few thousand, far more insight into these experiences would be generated than have been in years of bantering in our public forums. Now for my sad suspicions. I really believe (brave of me to use such a volatile word in this forum, isn't it?) that some sociology departments, hearing the suggestion, would permit the study of Elvis letters as class projects. I doubt that any would risk letting themselves be associated with the significant study of abductee letters. In fairness, in my personal understanding of the human experience, allowing that the individual episode is very important for each person, I find the abduction phenomenon very unimportant in exploring the ETH for the lack of a broad context in which to study it. By analogy, we are at the level of studying the atom with the tools of alchemy. Yes, I am tarnishing the glories of Sociology, Philosophy, Psychology and others. Bye... Ted..
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 9 Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality From: Jsmortell@aol.com Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 01:23:29 EST Fwd Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 11:48:16 -0500 Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >From: Leanne Martin <leanne_martin@hotmail.com> >To: updates@globalserve.net >Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >Date: Sun, 07 Feb 1999 19:45:12 PST >Greg, Kevin & List, >Agreed - it is a good snippet to argue the case. >Point to consider, though, too. We all know how T.V. culture >enters the real wotld culture - vis, "Doh", "Yada, Yada, Yada" >and "Master of my own domain" & etc. >As much as I hate to argue for a pro-abduction point at any >time, it is possible that the reference may have been picked as >a popular cultural saying and therefore entered the vernacular. >Not being a native U.S.Alian of the period I have no way of >knowing >for sure. Does anyone? >Regards >Leanne ];-) Leanne, Greg, Kevin... et al.... I believe it not only was but still is just that, a popular piece of the culture, in the vernacular so to speak... one opine at least... Gesundt
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 9 Re: Robert Todd On MJ-12 From: Ed Stewart <ufoindex@jps.net> Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 00:01:37 -0800 Fwd Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 11:51:45 -0500 Subject: Re: Robert Todd On MJ-12 >Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 04:43:55 -0800 >From: Josh Goldstein <clearlt@pacbell.net> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: Re: Robert Todd On MJ-12 >>>Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 21:06:32 EST >>>To: updates@globalserve.net >>>Subject: Re: Open Letter: MJ-12 & Dr. Wood >>>Unfortunately, it is all too easy to create fake documents, >>>especially when the perpetrators have the raw materials in their >>>own filing cabinets, gathered from years of researching the >>>Roswell incident, as in the case of Moore, Shandera, and >>>Friedman. >>Robert Todd >Robert Todd, Ed Stewart, and Alfred Lehmberg: >I read the above post and did not reply until I scanned a number >of following posts to see if there was a reply by Stanton >Friedman. There was not so I will put my bits in. I thank Ed >Stewart for supporting Mr. Todd's above statements by posting >his article that originally appeared in Just Cause. Thank you for your comments. There will be more supporting documentation from past issues of JUST CAUSE posted in the near future to the List that originally was researched and published during the period post 1987. >I read it >when it was published and it certainly made me doubt any >authenticity. I certainly suspected the idea of it coming to Mr. >Shandera anonymously in the mail. >If I remember correctly (memory suspect), the package had an >Alamagordo postmark. Actually, the point of origin was Albuquerque, NM. The research team of Moore-Shandera-Friedman originally concealed the point of origin of the mail packet allegedly received by Shandera and would not reveal to UFO investigators what city it originated from. If one looks at the 1988 MUFON UFO Symposium Proceedings, "MJ-12 and Phil Klass: What are the facts?" by William L. Moore and Stanton T. Friedman, exhibit 2 is a reproduction of the mail packet addressed to Jaime Shandera. One can see that the repro hides the top of the three postmarks which would have contained the city of origin. It cannot be said it was so because the document was opened and cut at the top because the tear of opening can be seen at the right of the mail packet. It cannot be said it was so because the mail packet was too big and it wouldn't fit under the copier and therefore folded at the top because as seen in the exhibit, over half of the mail packet was white space below the address of Jaime Shandera and that would have been the obvious place to fold the mail packet if there was a problem fitting it into the copier. The bottom of the postmarks would have contained the State of origin, i.e. N. M. But, apparently it was blackened out on all three postmarks. In the presentation, Moore and Friedman stated the package "bored no return address". Why originally conceal the point of origin from the UFO community? It just so happens that Albuquerque, NM., would have alerted ufologists to the point of origin and possible connection to another associate of Moore-Shandera-Friedman, Richard Doty! And all reserch efforts would independently have channeled in that direction. >When Bill Moore made his great "confession >of sin" before MUFON he tarnished his name. I don't remember >what year he claimed he began his stint with Doty for the OSI. Connection to Doty according to Stanton Friedman's book does back to 1980 prior to the receipt of the MJ-12 papers by Shandera in 1984. Also of note was the revelation from the MUFON paper cited above that Moore and Friedman and been working together with Shandera since 1980. Consequently, the research team of Moore-Shandera-Friedman not only were working together and sharing archival research since 1980, but an association of Doty to the research team of Moore-Shandera-Friedman can be made. >When did he start? How long before Paul Bennewitz was driven >over the edge? When Moore admitted he wanted to plant fake >documents was when he drove the last nail in his coffin. Planting "fake documents" was a strategy William Moore of the Moore-Shandera-Friedman research team felt was very worth while. The motivation for such endeavor was enticing possible witnesses to a "watergate styled" cover-up to come forward and tell what they knew. Possible witnesses, thinking the publicised "fake documents" meant the "cover-up" had been lifted, would emerge feeling it now was okay to tell all. Thus, not only can opportunity be shown relevant to hoax suspects, but an apparent motive is also documented and shown to exist. (More later) >I was >very surprised when Stanton Friedman received his grant years >later to study the MJ-12 documents. Whose decision was that? The Fund for UFO Research (FUFOR) received donations especifically earmarked to be spent on MJ-12 research by different donors. After a major donation was made especifically naming Friedman, the Fund only funded one MJ-12 research project, Stanton Friedman. The money couldn't be used in other ways according to the Fund. Richard Hall, head of the Fund at that time, later wrote in his UFO column an article defending the Fund's actions: 01/91 UFO, Vol. 6, No. 1, pp. 30-32, Hall, Richard H., "In Defense Of MJ-12" Richard Hall, inspite of defending the Fund for MJ-12 research, ventured his personal skepticism towards Friedman's research and the alleged MJ-12 papers in: 07/92 UFO, Vol. 7, No. 4, pp. 13-14, Hall, Richard H., "Hall's Corner [Re: Personal Skepticism On MJ-12]" 09/92 UFO, Vol. 7, No. 5, pp. 10-11, Hall, Richard H., "Hall's Corner [Re: Activities of Richard Doty And Bill Moore]" 11/92 UFO, Vol. 7, No. 6, pp. 9-9, Hall, Richard H., "Hall's Corner [Re: MJ-12 Documentation and Bill Moore/Richard Doty's Roles]" It just goes to support that the strongest objections towards the alleged MJ-12 documents have come from the inside of the UFO community and not as portrayed by Stanton Friedman, a battle between him and Phil Klass. By the way, Stanton Friedman in his book Top Secret/Majic mentions on various occasions the Fund funding his research and the implication of total support that goes with it, but conveniently does not inform his readers of the Richard Hall articles above and/or his announced skepticism of Friedman's "research". And this was _after_ Friedman's 1991 Final Report on Operation Majestic 12 which was a report to the Fund on what they got for their donors' money and after the Fund had an opportunity to evaluate the "research" done by Friedman. As a matter of fact, there is _no_ mention of Richard Hall in Friedman's book _anywhere_, a treatment Friedman applied to other researchers also including Barry Greenwood/JUST CAUSE's published research in total 1987 forward. Friedman's book came out in 1996. Fd Stewart ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Ed Stewart ufoindex@jps.net|So Man, who here seems principal alone, There Is Something |Perhaps acts second to some sphere unknown. Going On! ,>'?'<, |Touches some wheel, or verges to some goal, Salvador Freixedo ( O O ) |'Tis but a part we see, and not a whole. ---------------ooOO-(_)-OOoo------- Alexander Pope, Essay on Man -------
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 9 Re: UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 4, Number 6 From: John Hayes <jhayes@cableinet.co.uk> Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 08:04:38 +0000 Fwd Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 12:01:55 -0500 Subject: Re: UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 4, Number 6 >Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 20:04:49 +0000 >To: Masinaigan <Masinaigan@aol.com> >From: John Hayes <jhayes@cableinet.co.uk> >Subject: UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 4, Number 6 <snip> > Don't miss our parent website UFOINFO. >This week's highlight includes the GOES-8 image >that appeared on Chile's TV-UC network recently. >(Note: The images appear in the online edition of >this issue at UFOINFO - webmaster@ufoinfo.com) >There's no shortage of other photos, features, >news and fun at http://ufoinfo.com In response to a few e-mails I have received the URL is: http://ufoinfo.com/roundup/v04/rnd04_06.html My apology for any confusion.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 9 Mars Probe Ready to Scan Surface From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@get2net.dk> Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 08:56:20 GMT Fwd Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 12:12:40 -0500 Subject: Mars Probe Ready to Scan Surface Source: Discovery (Channel) Online, http://www.discovery.com/news/briefs/brief1.html?ct=3D36c00a6c Stig *** Mars Probe Ready to Scan Surface ** A year behind schedule but no worse for the wear, NASA's Mars Global Surveyor is finally in position to begin mapping the Red Planet. The spacecraft, launched in 1996 as a companion spacecraft to Mars Pathfinder, will spend an entire Martian year -- 687 Earth days -- photographing the planet for future expeditions. The survey was delayed so engineers could delicately lower the probe into its proper orbit. The positioning technique, called aerobraking, involved dipping the spacecraft's solar panel into the thin Martian atmosphere like a paddle to gradually dissipate speed and reshape its orbit. The work was complicated by a structural problem with the solar panel that forced spacecraft operators to aerobrake the spacecraft extremely gently and slowly. "It has been a long and arduous task that has turned into a valuable learning experience for all of us," says Glenn Cunningham, deputy director of the Mars Exploration Program at NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory. "The use of aerobraking has been a pioneering operation for a spacecraft at Mars, and we now know that we can use this technique with confidence for future Mars missions." Mars Global Surveyor will spend the next two weeks drifting into what's called a sun-synchronous orbit so the spacecraft will cross the Martian equator every day at about 2 a.m. local solar time. In addition to mapping, the satellite will study the planet's topography, magnetic fields, mineral composition and atmosphere. It also will serve as a communications relay for the Mars Polar Lander, which is scheduled to arrive on Mars Dec. 3. * By Irene Brown, Discovery Online News DISCOVERY ONLINE Picture: NASA Copyright =A9 1999 Discovery Communications Inc.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 9 Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality From: Jean-Luc Rivera <JLRIV1@aol.com> Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 04:09:24 EST Fwd Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 12:19:05 -0500 Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality Dear Kevin, In a message dated 02/08/1999 6:49:52 PM, you wrote : >From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com> >Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 22:11:52 EST >To: updates@globalserve.net >Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto >updates@globalserve.net> >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net> >>Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >>Date: Sun, 07 Feb 99 11:33:55 PST <snip> >>I beg to differ, my friends. This is no catch at all. Simply >>to have heard of The Twilight Zone is not to render one guilty >>of being a regular, or even occasional, viewer. >Yet she asked if he had watched the show recently... My impression, and I had the pleasure to meet Betty Hill a few times, is that the question was as a kind of " I cannot believe it " joke, using what was probably the best known reference about the "impossible" at the time. A lot of people who are not " X Files " watchers are anyway using them as a reference in conversations today. >>In point of fact, I was the first ufologist to ask Betty Hill a >>related question, after a debunker had written several articles >>claiming a link between Barney Hill's testimony and an episode >>of a Twilight Zone-like show titled Outer Limits. Mrs. Hill >>told me, "As for the Outer Limits program -- never heard of it. >>Barney worked nights. If he was not working, we were never home >>because of our community activities. If we had been home, I am >>sure this title would not interest us." >Here is a statement which we can't falsify. How do we know that >Barney wasn't a closet Outer Limits viewer? How do we know that >this isn't the one episode that he saw? It was only recently >that my wife discovered that I watch Friends. Hey, there are >some funny lines in the program. We can suppose about everything we want but we must assume that of all of us Betty Hill is still the one who knew her husband and his habits the best. By the way no need to justify you being a " closet " Friends watcher > BG > <snip> Nevertheless I think that to ask the question of the cultural influences on the experiencers perceptions of whatever happened to them is a good one: Bertrand Meheust and Michel Meurger in France, Peter Hough and Jenny Randles in the UK have done some very interesting studies. Best regards Jean-Luc Rivera
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 9 Re: Sheffield Incident [Pt. 1] From: Max Burns <AlienHype@aol.com> Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 04:12:16 EST Fwd Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 22:21:38 -0500 Subject: Re: Sheffield Incident [Pt. 1] >Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 17:03:51 -0500 >From: David Clarke <dclarke14@compuserve.com> >Subject: Re: Sheffield Incident & Things >To: UFO Updates <updates@globalserve.net> >>From: Max Burns <AlienHype@aol.com> >>Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 00:34:41 EST >>To: Updates@globalserve.net >>Subject: Sheffield Incident & Things >So the mythology surrounding the "Sheffield Incident' rumbles >on..... >A year and no doubt a lot of in-depth research later what >have we got? >>information via another researcher, who is going on the record >>that he was in the company of, for a few days while on holiday, >>with a NATO Tornado jet pilot. The pilot has confirmed 'off the >>record' that the incident over the Peak District....culminated >>in the loss of a NATO Tornado jet, resulting in the death of a >>pilot... >So basically, a "friend of a friend of a friend of a friend", >all of whom of course, are anonymous and off the record, like >all of Maxi's evidence (such as the mysterious "radar operator"). Actually David, this researcher knows you far better and for much longer than he has known myself, so we could say its your friend who is the at this time anonymous person who will be going on the record. >Are we really stupid enough to believe the RAF are capable of >hiding the deaths of two pilots over one of the most densely >populated areas of western Europe for two years? Are we really stupid enough to believe the RAF/N.A.T.O are not capable of hiding the deaths of two pilots over one of the most densely populated areas of western Europe for two years? Incidentally the Peak District is not one of the most densely populated area's in western Europe. Its green belt and very few people live in this area >Max Burns is quite right when he claims the MOD have >covered up what really happened over the Peak District on the >night of March 24 two years ago. But the cover-up concerns >a covert low-flying exercise which resulted in two sonic booms >above land Yes, David lets talk sonic boom... You stated that the fire and rescue commander stated it was all down to reports of a bang and flash in the sky.& I have checked and sonic means sound, sonic booms do not cause flashes in the sky. & so what we are really talking about here is explosion with heat flame and a flash.& >You have also written that there was a boom and a flash, >" I think it was caused by two separate things that were tied >together" What were these two separate things? 1. The triangle see ya later sonic boom 2. The N.A.T.O Tornado at the same time KA BOOM. What are you on about? You have also written: >>Statement of John Beaver Yorkshire Water. >>We checked the Strines and Broomhead reservoirs for oil slick >>or debris then we were told to stand down by the police. There are thirteen reservoirs in the area concerned and they searched twoThey did not even search LadyBower which is just about the largest reservoir n the peaks and happens to run along and under the very bridge where Jonathan Dagenhart encountered the man who was covered in aviation fuel. Mr. Jonathan Dagenhart After writing a letter to this man regarding his comments in the police log he telephoned me Here follows the edited verbatim transcript of my telephone conversation. Taped interview between Max Burns and Jonathan Dagenhart on 2/5/98 Time 11.10 am I had to call the witness back on another phone so as to set up the recording Equipment the conversation went like this. He consented to being recorded. Burns Hell there Dagenhart Hello Burns So what happened that night? You'd been the Wales... Dagenhart: Well, we'd been to Wales, Um on the way home, Um driving down Snake Pass and all of a sudden just coming up to the viaduct this man stepped out in front of us, flagged us down so we stopped, pulled over I was in the front of the minibus with the driver and another passenger so I wound my window down and he started speaking to us he said I've got to get to Sheffield, Sheffield and that's basically all he said. Burns: Did he look in shock? Dagenhart: Yer, he didn't seem to really know which way Sheffield was or what he was doing or anything and the thing is I said at the time when I rang the police he smelled of diesel fuel, well since then I've joined the airforce and I'm now working for the airforce and it wasn't diesel fuel it was aviation fuel that he'd got on him. David Clarke then interviewed Jonathan Dagenhart 1 week after I had recorded the first Interview, On the 11th and 12th of May. Five days previous Mr Clark had rang the News of the World While I was there to get the story stopped from going in the News of the World. This was only four days after Mr Clark had successfully intimidated Bufora president Steve gamble and other council members into removing myself from the lecture that weekend May 2nd or 3rd. After the campaign led by David Clark to have me censored and removed from the Bufora lecture this is what Clark alleges was said. >>'I was a passenger on a minibus which was travelling across >>the snake pass towards Sheffield, late on the night of the >>24th March last year. When crossing the viaduct >>Over the reservoir the bus was flagged down by a man who >>was acting suspiciously. How do you suspiciously flag down a mini bus? >>He did not seem to know where he was and just said he >>needed to get to Sheffield. This guy was covered in fuel of >>some sort, and from the smell I thought it was Paraffin or >>diesel, but since then Ive joined the RAF and I can say it was >>a smell like aviation fuel Mr. Jonathan Dagenhart Telephoned me on the 12th of May at approximately 11.30 and sounding very flustered with a shaky voice informed me that I had twisted what he said and he no longer wanted to have his name put to his original statement. He has also spoken with Mr. Phil Taylor at the News of the World informing him that he was going to lose his job over the statement that he had made to me. When I spoke to Phil taylor at the N.o.T.W. he said the guy was almost in tears on the phone. Has David Clark reduced this man to tears this is the same day he Interviewed him, or was he made to retract his statement. May I add that Mr. Dagenhart is under the employ of the RAF where he works on jet engines and when I questioned him about who had spoken with him about this he just said a source. I further questioned him as to whether it was his employer the RAF who had silenced him and he replied that he could not say on that he ended the conversation and was very upset. Why would the RAF be hauling an engineer over the hot coals like this to the point of him telling a national news reporter that he was going to lose his job and trying to imply that I have twisted what he has said, bearing in mind that he made the comment about me twisting what he had said before it has been in print anywhere and he verified the content of the taped transcript of our conversation to Mr Mike Jarvis reporter for the News of The World and made his statements freely and without prompting. When asked, at the time did he want to remain anonymous he replied "I'm not bothered". All of which is on tape and can be cross verified by Mike Jarvis at the News of The World. I hope you all agree that for someone to turn around from being 'not bothered' to 'I'm going to lose my job', adds more weight to my case. Why would the military be pressurising a member of their workforce to retract a statement about something they claim has not occurred. I reiterate to you all I have the Dagenhart tape and he made all comments freely and without prompting The RAF are trying to make someone retract a statement about something that they claim never happened anyway WHY? So I said when he told me it was aviation fuel: Burns Ah absolutely superb Dagenhart and I will put my money on that Burns You work for the airforce Dagenhart I work for the royal air force Burns Where do you work? as a civilian for the airforce Dagenhart No I actually work for the airforce I am paid by the air force Burns Really can I ask you what job you do? Dagenhart I'm a jet engine specialist Burns A jet engine specialist Dagenhart Yes Further on In the David Clark interview with Dagenhart, >>Clark wrote. "questioned about the clothes this man was >>wearing, In light of Max Burns' claims, Dagenhart told me >>" they were just ordinary dark clothes >>he definitely not wearing the sort of uniform associated with >>RAF pilots, I would have recognised that uniform immediately" As you will see below, I asked the direct question, was it a flying suit he was wearing. Please note that I informed Dagenhart of exactly how I was reporting this story and he was fully aware of this one week previous to David Clark's, alleged interview. And was extremely willing to go on the record be recorded and speak to national news reporters Burns Ar Do you know, I must send you a full copy of this report of what's happened Do you remember they were looking for a crashed plane . Dagenhart Yep Burns Yer they've lost a military jet. Dagenhart Oh right Burns And I believe he was the co-pilot of the tornado jet that's crashed. Did it look like a flying suit he was wearing? Dagenhart Um I don't know he'd got clothes on but I mean it was dark and he'd got dark clothes on that's all. Burns And he didn't know where he was? Dagenhart No Burns Yer and there were no vehicles in the area Dagenhart There was nothing. A police car past us about 2 minutes after we passed him Ur cos. wed got a full minibus there was no room at all to get him on so we drove off. No mention of the man acting suspiciously, here is where I informed Dagenhart of exactly how I was reporting this story: Burns That night I've got multiple witnesses to an enormous UFO flying about Dagenhart Right Burns A military interception and they're trying to cover it up but you know 'll send you a copy of this if you like Dagenhart Yer brilliant Mr Dagenhart seems very excited and relaxed at the moment using words like Brilliant! Burns Do you remember anything else was his English good Dagenhart No it wasn't it was very poor very poor. Burns Yer I think he might have been a NATO pilot or co-pilot Dagenhart Yes he was of sort of African sort of origin very very dark skinned Burns And it was definitely aviation fuel Dagenhart Yes Burns And you can substantiate that because you now work for the Royal Air Force on jet engines Dagenhart Yes Burns I'll post you a copy of this report after the weekend Dagenhart Right, brilliant Burns And he really didn't know where he was going Dagenhart He didn't know where he was going it looked like he just walked off a hill Burns Really did he have any mud or anything on him Could you tell was his clothing dirty Dagenhart I couldn't tell Burns But as you work for the Royal Air Force on jet engines your absolutely 100% certain that it was aviation fuel not diesel Dagenhart Yes Burns I might contact you again if that's OK Dagenhart Yes well this is my parents number and I'm hardly ever here Burns Well I'll leave a message for you Dagenhart Yes Burns Now in my report do you ant me to change your name keep you anonymous Dagenhart To be honest I don't care Burns Thanks very much Jonathan Dagenhart You're welcome Burns You've been absolutely brilliant try to get someone else to ring with a statement Dagenhart Yer I shall Burns About the bloke Dagenhart Yer I will Burns Thanks mate Dagenhart OK Burns Brilliant Dagenhart No problem Burns Bye Dagenhart Bye contd. in post 2
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 9 Re: Sheffield Incident [Pt. 2] From: Max Burns <AlienHype@aol.com> Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 04:19:52 EST Fwd Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 22:36:08 -0500 Subject: Re: Sheffield Incident [Pt. 2] >Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 17:03:51 -0500 >From: David Clarke <dclarke14@compuserve.com> >Subject: Re: Sheffield Incident & Things >To: UFO Updates <updates@globalserve.net> >>From: Max Burns <AlienHype@aol.com> >>Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 00:34:41 EST >>To: Updates@globalserve.net >>Subject: Sheffield Incident & Things Mr Clark then wrote, >>According to Dagenharts statement on May 12th, >>" At no stage in any of this conversation did Max Tell me he >>was going to use what I had told him in a story claiming that >>I had seen the co-pilot of a >> Tornado which had been shot down by a UFO" That's right David at no stage did I assert this to Mr Dagenhart, so you must said it not me, and readers of UpDates you can see that I was completely open with what I thought had occurred, he was fully aware, on tape recorded with permission. 1 week prior to your load of bull. I have the full interview on tape of what you have just read Further on David also asked Dagenhart, >>Asked how he would react, if Max claimed he had been >>silenced as a result of withdrawing his testimony, Dagenhart >>responded >>"I haven't been silenced by anyone, I just don't want my name >>connected to a story like this and that is why I intend to tell >>Max not to involve me any further, >>"I just told him all what I saw that night and that is all I know". That last line sounds like the comment of someone under pressure and under Questioning, He did tell me all he saw that night the truth not the bull that has been Peddled after 1st original interview on the record from a very excited man. After David had spoken with him and his bosses plus god knows who else He sounds like he has been beaten with hickory sticks David also wrote >>Shortly after this conversation, Jonathan phoned Max, >>withdrew permissionfor the story to go ahead, and asked him >>not to use his name in connection with these claims as it >>could put his career in jeopardy. How could he lose his job over something the RAF has claimed has not occurred? Ok we have been around the reservoirs so David let's get back to John Beaver You also claim John Beaver also told you. >>The police told me that the RAF had admitted there was a >>plane doing a night time exercise and it had gone through the >>sound barrier. Now David are the Police lying to John Beaver is John beaver lying to you or are you lying to us now.. You see this credible statement is claiming something the RAF have still not admitted to. And infact at the time John Beavers men were told to stand down the RAF would not even admit Too having any planes in the air that night.! Well, David who's lying? >not a UFO dogfight and a lost Tornado; an explanation which >all serious ufologists in the UK accept to be the case. I have never used the word Dogfight, get to Tehran for the dog fight. Who are these serious ufologists, you really don't expect us to believe That you have spoken to all the serious ufologists, in your opinion who are these people names please, I for one know of dozens of researchers who are in support of my research. >> Even Nick Pope when questioned about Max's claims concerning the lost >>Tornado told me his opinion: "A load of utter b*****s". Really I have it in a public interview with Nick Pope, when I asked him Last year "Nick what is your opinion on the Sheffield Incident" He replied with "I don't know anything about it" In the same interview 15 minutes later he said "As far as we are concerned it remains unsolved" This was at the back end of last year. And the full log of the interview is available on Crow & Raines Web SITE.. EBK.. Do you know that URL? [No. Crow? Raine? Are you there? --ebk] Looking for Meeting log Nick Pope, if you decide to visit The same Nick Pope also stated in the log that his office was and still is the only one dealing with UFO reports.. I said what is the involvement of DI55 And other groups operating behind the scenes.. He ignored the question, apart from the fact that when Nick was at AirStaff2a He was only a junior clerk& DI55 Have been placing disinformation and also interacting with similar American groups, as well as sending out field investigator, s I offer up these documents readily available from the public record's office at Kew London. M.O.D. Documents The policy of these groups is to play down the subject of the UFO problem, so as to not fuel an outcry for a public investigation into the subject in the Houses of Parliament. In one of the documents you will see a particular reference to parliamentary questions into the subject matter. The quote from the military was, "due to the way the subject of UFO's is handled we have only had the subject raised in the Houses of Parliament a couple of times and then only in a perfunctory way". As far as we are concerned this situation is untenable, the military should be taking orders from the Government and not manipulating the situation so as to control any possible parliamentary questions into raising the issue of the subject matter. List of document numbers Air 2 / 16919 Air 2 / 17318 Air 2 / 17526 Air 2 / 17527 Air 2 / 17982 Air 2 / 17983 Air 16 / 1199 Air 20 / 7390 Air 20 / 9320 Air 20 / 9321 Air 20 / 9322 Air 20 / 9994 Prem 11 / 855 >During the last 12 months Martin and myself have interviewed all =D8 the witnesses (including Emma Maidenhead) David you have not interviewed Emma Maidenhead, however When you got Martin to ring myself, because once again you needed to discredit some witnesses, I gave Emma martins Phone number and she rang him. >>and traced a number of >new ones including a gamekeeper on the moors who saw the "UFO" >pass over his head at 500 foot and identified it as a military >plane, and a police sergeant who saw a formation of jets flying >across the vale of Edale in a "V" formation chasing a second >jet. >This latter sighting occurred just seconds after Emma's sighting >in Dronfield and quite clearly describes the same aircraft she >saw That is completely untrue and speculation on your part. >As for Max's "eight clear witnesses" to a triangular UFO - >the reliability of his claims here can be demonstrated by this >extract from his report concerning the observation of one Dan >Grayson (quote): >>"It was huge, triangular in shape and hovering silently, then >>it slowly moved off, it was being shadowed by an unmarked >>helicopter [at 11.30pm?] >Strangely enough when Martin Jeffreys contacted Mr Grayson in >September last year he maintained he had not seen any triangular >object - and denied ever telling Max he had! >Puzzled and perplexed by Martin's evidence I contacted Mr >Grayson myself and what did he tell me? >[transcript of interview 23 September 1998] >Dan Grayson: I saw a red stationary light in the sky which >moved off after about two minutes, and seemed to split into two. >I thought it was Mars at first but then it moved off and split >into two and the two lights flashed off and disappeared." >I was looking towards Glossop from Stannington, then I saw a >helicopter which had no lights on it. >Afterwards I realised it could have been the rescue helicopter. >I did not think it was anything strange at the time." >Dave Clarke: Did you see a triangular UFO? >Dan Grayson: "No I did not. I've never said that I have. David this is really strange as I also supplied Dan Graysons Tel number for Martin, but you will leach your info from anywhere But this really puzzles me, the original report that Dan Grayson Reported was in a local paper obviously not the Star, because he would have been put through to yourself as all people who ring the paper you work for with UFO sightings are and you would have simply reported it as another arrival from Amsterdam airport into Sheffield, as you have been doing with all ufo triangle reports even though at the time the airport was not completed. And he reported a Flying triangle on the night in question, That's why I contacted him in the first place, and please A bit of logic here, updates, I am the only person with his number I give his number out to others knowing that he would discredit my own statement further down the line, it would have been easier if I just said that I had lost his number. Still I will add it to the list of Scary David Clark spoke to them And the memory altered& But just to redress the balance here, you spoke with the witness Mrs Dronfield the elderly lady from High Bradfield, And you wrote something to the effect of she saw some strange Very bright aircraft lights very low going down behind the houses. I interviewed her shortly after the incident and she told myself this. Mrs. Dronfield Another witness was Mrs. Dronfield, an elderly lady who reported her sighting to the police. According to the police reports Mrs. Dronfield saw a cigar shaped object flying at a very low altitude towards Strines from High Bradfield at around 22.00. Her statement says the object was lit up more than a normal plane would have been. When I spoke to Mrs. Dronfield in person, more details began to unfold. She had in fact gone to her bedroom window with a pair of binoculars intending to look at Hale Bopp. However before she had had a chance, she noticed the UFO. It was glowing orange as it came across towards the Strines area and Mrs. Dronfield kept it in view for about twenty seconds. After speaking to Mrs. Dronfield I concluded that what she thought was a cigar shaped object could well have been the triangular object sighted by Emma Maidenhead but seen from a side view. Mrs Dronfield saw the object from side on at a low altitude, whereas Emma Maidenhead saw the object above her and so was able to see its overall shape. Both witnesses are entirely genuine and are certain of what they saw. Mrs Dronfield is an 80 year old lady who in her entire life has never had or felt the need to call the police about anything. She is intelligent and fully in control of her mental faculties& The thing is David after your article in ufo Mag I called Mrs Dronfield In light of what you had wrote about her recollection of the nights events She assured me that she had told you exactly the same as she told me. Why have you altered and almost ignored what this lady told us both? I have distorted nothing, and If anyone wishes the audio tape of the Jonathan Dagenhart interview then email me >No doubt this saga will continue and I wish Max well in his >attempts to prove the unprovable. But at the end of the day we >come back to some simple questions: No doubt this saga will continue and I wish Dave well in his attempts to disprove the provable. Take a step back there is more I could tell you, I hope you will agree that the actions, of David Clark and his little hunting party are slightly over zealous for just a difference of opinion. I believe that the actions of David Clark, Andy Robert's Must be Considered a high risk probability, that they are working to an agenda Originally not there own, and the IUN group which they are involved with is a further grip ufology Does not need freedom of speech for all. You Have been warned I am sure that David will be pleased to hear that I am to give a lecture on the Sheffield case at the BUFORA London Lectures. You are still the BUFORA press officer arnt you David? Or will I be censored like last year? I am the only person in the 35yr history of BUFORA to be censored. John Spencer wrote of this that the Bufora council last year, made a grave error of judgement and that day he stated that BUFORA had taken its first step towards facisim.. What are some people afraid of that I might be right? Hold that thought Max Burns
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 9 Re: Abductions and Researcher Bias From: Geri & Alfred Webre <Ecotoday@aol.com> Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 04:37:18 EST Fwd Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 22:44:39 -0500 Subject: Re: Abductions and Researcher Bias >From: Joseph Polanik <jpolanik@mindspring.com >Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 21:54:32 -0500 (EST) >To: updates@globalserve.net >Subject: Abductions and Researcher Bias >Abductions and Researcher Bias >by Martin Kottmeyer <snip> >As the Kottmeyer study demonstrates, the experimenter's >theoretical perspective determines what he or she will see. I >strongly suspect that Ufology will achieve no respect as a >disciplined inquiry until this experimenter bias can be greatly >reduced. Thank you. An alternative question still remains: who is the experimenter and who are the subjects in abduction phenomena? True, the Ufologist experimenter bias must be reduced. At the same time, an abduction phenomenon may be an intentional experiment which itself includes the Ufologist as subject. It may be useful to keep these multiple dynamics in mind. Geri & Alfred Webre Vancouver, BC
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 9 Re: Robert Todd On MJ-12 From: Robert Todd <Bohica449@aol.com> Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 04:59:20 EST Fwd Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 22:52:38 -0500 Subject: Re: Robert Todd On MJ-12 >From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: Re: Robert Todd On MJ-12 >Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 17:06:42 -0400 >>From: Robert Todd <Bohica449@aol.com> >>Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 21:06:32 EST >>To: updates@globalserve.net >>Subject: Re: Open Letter: MJ-12 & Dr. Wood >>>From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net> >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >>>Subject: Re: Open Letter: MJ-12 & Dr. Wood >>>Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 22:47:55 -0400 >>>>Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 07:22:17 -0800 (PST) >>>>From: Rebecca Keith <xiannekei@yahoo.com> >>>>Subject: Re: Open Letter: MJ-12 & Dr. Wood >>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >>>>>From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net> >>>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >>>>>Subject: Re: Open Letter: MJ-12 & Dr. Wood >>>>>Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 08:45:27 -0400 >><snip> <snip> >It is a shame that Bob is so angry about people doing real >archival research that he has to vent such venom and make so >many totally false accusations.. I'm not angry. And I guess it all depends on what you mean by "real archival research." Neither do I consider my accusations false. I have gone where the facts have led me, and they have led me to the conclusions I outlined in my posting. >Why not just say he hates Friedman, Moore and Shandera and will >continue to attack, to selectively choose what he presents to >try to justify a preordained position? Off hand, I can't think of anybody I _hate_. I simply stated the conclusions I reached by examining the facts surrounding the MJ-12 affair. I did not invent the facts. If Friedman wants to take it personally, so be it. >The jealousy about my $16,000 research grant from FUFOR should >be obvious. Jealousy? Cut me a break! Jeez, what an egomaniac. Sorry, Stan, not everybody is as consumed by money as you are. >He neglects the fact that the money was obtained solely for my >project and could not have been used for any other purpose. But >why let the facts get in the way of another rant? And why should >I waste my time to dissect such garbage? I shouldn't. This is irrelevant to the question of whether or not Friedman performed $16,000 worth of "research," and whether or not Friedman reported on that "research" honestly. Considering the number of relevant documents he already had in his own files from "research" trips to various Archives, documents he subsequently used to "validate" the MJ-12 documents, I have to wonder if he actually did _any_ additional research for the $16,000. Had Friedman not submitted a proposal to the Fund, that money would never have been collected. And this raises the issue of just how much Friedman knew about the true origins of the fake MJ-12 documents when he made his proposal, and how much he knew when he accepted the grant, and how much of his knowledge he shared with FUFOR. _If_ he misrepresented his knowledge, or any other material facts, in making the proposal or accepting the grant, in the real world -- well, we won't get into that. And his sparse commentary also is irrelevant to the question of whether or not it was wise for the Fund for UFO Research to award that grant to Friedman, since he is on the list of suspects who might have created, or participated in the creation of, the MJ-12 documents. I guess it's kinda the same way Friedman felt when the Air Force looked into the Roswell myth. I'm sure it didn't make a lot of sense to him to (essentially) have the Air Force investigate themselves. I think that's a valid concern. And, since he and his "research team" are suspects, to have him "research" the authenticity of the MJ-12 documents strikes me as supremely ludicrous. If he or other "research team" members had any involvement in the manufacture of the fake documents, awarding him that grant, and sanctioning him as the (more or less) "official" researcher into their authenticity, virtually assured that nothing disputing the authenticity of the documents would wind up in his "Final Report," not to mention information that might point to Friedman or other "research team" members as the forgers. And no such information found its way into his report, regardless of how much he had to distort the facts and turn logic on its head. >And why should >I waste my time to dissect such garbage? I shouldn't. >Stan Friedman Obviously, I don't consider it garbage, and neither do a number of other people in the field. And, frankly, Friedman can dissect it all he wants. The facts are the facts. And those facts, in my humble opinion, lead to the conclusion that the members of Friedman's "research team" most certainly _are_ suspects in the creation of the MJ-12 documents. I happen to think that's a far more rational conclusion than Friedman's claim that the MJ-12 "insiders" are so interested in telling the people the "truth" about Roswell that they engaged in the ridiculously farfetched antics Friedman and Moore described in so many of their writings. It seems to me Friedman is letting himself off the hook awfully easily, especially when he demands that the Air Force answer every accusaton he hurls at them. His supposed outrage is all too convenient. Everybody seems to be accountable for their actions except Friedman. Apparently he makes his proclamations, and that's supposed to be the end of it. Everybody's supposed to believe everything he says. Generally, people will believe what they _want_ to believe. People are free to research the subject and examine the facts for themselves. I prefer that they not simply take my word for it, and caution them that they shouldn't take Friedman's word for anything either. The government isn't the only group of people capable of lying and capable of manufacturing fake documents. Robert Todd
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 10 Re: What's The Point? - A Rant From: Leanne Martin <leanne_martin@hotmail.com> Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 05:11:01 PST Fwd Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 07:38:40 -0500 Subject: Re: What's The Point? - A Rant >From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com> >Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 17:31:44 EST >To: updates@globalserve.net >Subject: Re: What's The Point? - A Rant >>From: Leanne Martin <leanne_martin@hotmail.com> >>To: updates@globalserve.net >>Subject: Re: What's The Point? - A Rant >>Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 00:04:54 PST >>>From: John W. Ratcliff <jratcliff@worldnet.att.net> >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >>>Subject: What's The Point? - A Rant >>>Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 00:33:05 -0600 >>>I am ashamed to admit that I kind of, sort of, maybe, in a way, >>>sometimes believe there might really be such a thing as UFOs. <re-snip> >>>John W. Ratcliff >>>Self Mutilating UFO Groupie >Dear John, Leanne, Entities lurking and Abductee/Believer >Wannabees, I shall endeavor to refrain from ranting and attempt >to address an opinion-oid of my own on the various woids written >herein.... >>Unlike John, I am not ashamed to admit that there might be UFOs, >>ghosts, goblins, Chuppa-chups, fairies at the bottom of the >>garden, bigfoots (bigfeet?) and alien abductions, etc. (**Note >>the words _might_, please.) John, what a good rant, be careful >>though as it was fully coherent. Isn'to that breaking the >>tradition? <g> <snipped a gripple ref here . . .> >>Like John I, too, love the topic of UFOs and scour the List, >>news agents, bookshelves and the web testing my credulity daily. >>Often I wonder, too, whether my 'interface' is awry because I >>want so much to believe in things for which the evidence is >>lacking. I really do want to believe. >Please, feel free to do so at any time. Not only is it de >rigour, it also tickles... >>When I express my opinions as to why I am not a 'confirmed >>believer' in a very exacting, coherent and logical way, and >>probing for a proof positive I am assailed as if I am the >>Anti-Christ herself! >Uh, perhaps the anti Virgin. And here is where I would like to >throw up.... sorry, I mean throw in my two cents. Jim, you're not going to let a little bit of good old fashioned religious sexism ruin one of my lines are you? <g> >You may be logical and coherent, and you are certainly >extracting, as well, your are a seeker of truth. However I for >one, feel compelled to inform that in doing all of the above >coher-ing and logic-ing, that to me at least, you extract >something very personal in your posts. >Specifically, I am made to feel, in some of your posts, that for >_me_ to believe based on my experiences is what you denigrate. >I do not wish to impose what I perceive (note the word, >_perceive_), I do not wish to impose my perceptions on your >belief systems. I perceive that I have been abducted on >numerous occasions since early childhood. As an adult ADD 'sufferer' I unfortunately have one of the classic minor symptoms of the syndrome - I shoot from the lip any and all observations that may rise to the surface to make a logical point. This is genuilnely done without malice and if any hurt has been incurred I am truly sorry, Jim, to you and any other 'abductees' whom I may have upset! (Yep you heard it here first, folks . . .) In fact, quite often I am totally bewildered as to why anyone would take any offense whatsoever at facts and logic. When I was a child I got in trouble with the nuns repeatedly for 'daring' to use logic to argue the illogicality, and the wrong doing, of churches and organized religions (in an historical sense). An eight year old was not at all allowed to question religious authority - how impertinent! Needless to say I was persona no grata from a young age . . . Whilst I do refuse to hide behind my ADD and use it as an excuse for my 'keen' attitude, I affirm that it is the reason where I might let (as in: not refrain from in a tactful way) blind logic get in the way of a more reconciliatory approach. >It's OK for you to believe that this perception on my part may >very well be a bit of undigested beef. But to me, it is very >real. I don't like hearing that I am full of Tyrannosaurus Dung >in believing my own experiences. I never implied that you were full of Tyrannosaurus Dung, however, I may have, extremely abstractly, hented that you produced it . . .<g> >Further, your use and choice of words in decrying the belief >systems of others relating to religion, the Virgin or other >matters, is an insult to me, personally. Once again I do apologize to all who may have been offended by my opinions about the true nature of the use of 'virgin' from the old Jewish sect application of it, however, I must let it stand. As more of the 'Dead Sea Scrolls' are more fully interpreted and understood contextually as well as literally, the true nature of its use have only been more recently comprehended. >>The assailants, for the most part, seem not >Good choice of words... _assailants_ eh? Makes me feel very >warm and toasty when I read the word. So anyone who does not >hold your opinion and tells you so, and further make the mistake >of telling you they are insulted by your attitude, is an >assailant!?? It is not that anyone expressed a different opinion and expressed the same, it is that I felt attacked for the simplicity of the logic itself. Truly, from the ADD perspective, its a case of "These are the facts why are they are attacking me? They should attack the facts if they disagree with them." All I could see was faith against fact . . . >>to be able to step back and look at themselves and their >>'evidence' as would any unbiased and dispassionate researcher of >>any subject. (**Note I said _for the most part_.) I attacked _no >>individual_, but I have no compunction whatsoever about o >>attacking bad logic. I used religious references to point out >>their zeal and that reminds me: Which religion is the one true >>faith - each one _knows_ that it is? Which alien abduction/s >>scenario/s is/are the truth? There are far too, too many to >>choose from in religions and alien abductions and each one is >>adamant that their's is the way and the truth and the light. If >>they are all true then there are tens of thousands of gods and >>perhaps a few hundred totally different alien species with >>unique reasons to abduct you. >>(I dare say, the most 'believable' abduction stories are the >>ones where it happens without rhyme, reason, or explanation. It >>reminds me so much of human nature - where someone with the >>absolute power to do something will do it - coldly, bluntly, >>brutally - simply because they can and see no reason to do >>otherwise.) >'Scuse me.... por favor, but what the hell does that mean? Doesn't_The >most believable abduction stories are the ones where it happens >without rhyme or reason_??? You are going to have to splain that >one, Lucy. I can only conclude that an abduction where it >happens with rhyme and reason is something that is >believable.... Duh!? Jim, you didn't answer _one_ question from three paragraphs up . . . Apropo one paragraph up; Once again you missed the analogy. Picture this - Some far off country, some obnoxious dictator the likes of Idi Amin, Pol Pot, Sadam Hussein, Haili Salassi, Papa Doc Duvalier, Joseph Stalin, Adolph Hitler, Richard Nixon (you know the type - 'the ends justify the means' in their mindset.) I was using human nature to illustrate a possible 'hidden nature' of the 'abduction' thingy. These people are absolutely ruthless (Yes! They got rid of Ruth!<BG>). They will drag people off the streets and torture them on a whim and treat them as nothing more than dirt, imprison them for years, and, worst of all kill them in an instant and for one reason only - they, for whatever reason at that point in time, have the absolute power to do so! We see the same thing today in scientific research and animal farming - "Sorry animal, bugger you, we need to eat/do science/make cosmetics etc., so you're dead" [I was wrong - I don't think humans say "sorry" in this case either <g>.] We (people on the outside of the 'abduction' experience) hear, read, or whatever, so many ascribed reasons from 'abductees' as to why they were abducted, are being abducted, etc. For example:- the messianic message: "humanity is in trouble - listen or your dead"; the hybrid - "we are inter-breeding for your good and ours"; fellowship - "You are being called upon to join a fellowship of interplanetary beings"; the religious - "this is another of God's works and you are being called upon." no rhyme or reason - Shit happens. Its your unlucky day - wrong time in the wrong spot and some damn alien's got a scientific quota to fill and you're it! "I gotta get my stats up for the month or I lose credits. I'll just pick up the next bipedal organism that comes up on the scope!" Bingo! You're in. That's what I mean about "more believable":- Any organisms that are occupying a position of absolute power over other organisms may be more inclined to use their power in a disdainful way against those they deem beneath them. In nature we see it every day, in human nature we experience every day. Who knows what happens in the hearts of aliens? (The Shadow Knows!) <g> >>As stated above there _might_ be all manner of curious things >on >our world, and around it, of the likes mentioned in this >List. >There actually might be! As there might be mentally >unwell >people who claim to be abductees there might equally be >those >who truly are abductees. (I feel terribly sorry for >either >experience as both appear equally horrible to go >through.) I am >fully entitled to not believe in them until the >proof is in the >pudding, just as others do already believe in >them. >I take no exception to that. But please, allow me to repeat >your previous posts and you decide if I am too sensitive, or >else I'm gettin soft. I know, I know... another Dylan quote out >of context, sue me. Please supply your solicitor's address details for te writ . . . <g> >>I feel a bit sad >>for anyone whose life is so empty that they will choose a religion >>to fill it. In some ways it is sadder than the child who is raised >>in a particular religion, indoctrinated from birth, without ever >>being asked their permission. >>I consider myself a 'christian' (not Christian) in that I follow >>JC's tenet of "do unto others...", but there is no way I would join >>a church or organized religion and allow myself to be manipulated >>by such a group for their own self serving ends >Say, am I too sensitive or what? Give at least some of us >enough credit for using our own brains and intellect. By this >inappropriate remark(s) you are accusing me and others like me >that because I choose to practice a faith my life is empty? And >the check is in the mail and don't worry sweetheart, I'm >sterile! Does that the mean the cheque (Oz spelling) is gunna bounce? <BG> You follow every bible tenet because your church tells you so? I'm sorry but I really had to delete a lot of stuff at this point about commion sense . . . <g> >And how about...... >>Yes, people who have mental problems misperceive reality and >>that is why I added 'true-life experiencers' for all I know >>there may well be some - it is just unfortunate for your/their >>case that the evidence is lacking. Any 'true-life experiencers' >>words carry little more weight than those of others if there is >>no solid evidence to back them up - it's a fact of science life >Oh shoot, there I go again, being sensitive over someone telling >me I have mental problems. God, I am such a dip! Mea culpa, mea culpa! I forgot to preface my paragraph by saying "Jim, y'all ignore this paragraph,now, y'hear?" <G> Jim, at no point did I say any _particular individual_ has had or does have mental problems - and you know that ('coz I can tell that you really can read <g>). As stated there may be 'abductees' who are mentally ill and, equally, there may not be. All we, the inquisitive are lacking is truly quantifiable truth! [I noticed you didn't credit a text "<snip>" after "its a fact of science life", Jim. Lets get our act together now.) ** Now I gotta say, Jim, if you continue to call yourself a dip then I gotta ask someone to pass the crackers! Oops I shouldn't'a said 'crackers'!** (++++++) >And then there was the one about the..... >>This comment is sad, so sad . . . I don't have 'faith' that >>these happen and that makes me a 'sad person' - what illogical >>crap. Is this a religious List? When was EBK declared 'Il Papa >>del OVNI' and the List a diocese? >>Why should I be expected to believe something someone tells me >>about an 'alien abduction' any more than some religious nut >>ranting at me to have 'faith' in their belief that Mary was a >>virgin in the medical sense and not in a socially specificsense. >Now for the piece of resistance..... You have made your opinions >quite clear. And I do not take exception to the basic message >you embrace.... "Give me the proof!" Got no problem with that. >The problem I have is your choice of words, your attitude and >the manner in which you demean.... mean it or not. That's the >way it comes across to me. Rats, Jim, I was kinda hoping you'd pounce on my Pope reference there . . . I thought the implicit parallels were too good to pass up. <bg> All right you got me there. How many ways can one apologize (and this time you got me dead to rights - with gripple induced frustration tearing at me and I let one really politically incorrect statement fly)? Mea culpa already! But Jim - did that absolute proof ever materialize? >Just lower the volume a bit and I won't be so damned sensitive >at being referred to as a religious nut, misperceive reality and >generally have the same type of problems I would ordinarily have >on Gripple. >OK? Impossible _ that would only make those 'faith' sustained nuns-in- glass convents happy . . . >>On my recent holidays in Tasmania I happened upon two seperate >>crop circles. I did not ascribe any supernatural or 'out of this >>world' nature to them. I took them for what they are - anomolies >>that are awaiting an explanation. To my mind that is what UFOs, >>abduction experiences, etc., are - various anomolies (real or >>imagined) that are awaiting explanations. >Only too true, Leanne. >>Back to John's rant (sorry, mate, I didn't want to hijack your >>rant) - what's the point? When I grow up I'll buy a rant of my >>own . . . maybe a chicken rant, or a sheep rant, or a cattle >>rant, or a dude rant - I know, a Hoagland rant with lots of >>little Hoagies running around . . . >>Regards (stirring the possum as ever), >>Leanne ];-) >I have a belief system, you have a belief system. I am sure >that you recognize that whether it comes to religion, politics >and UFO's, there will be opinions. Got no problem with >opinions, just a serious problem with voicing them with the >strength of the emotion. And, I am the first to admit that when >it comes to religion, politics, nugs (I tend to be dyslexic) and >UFO's, I am the first person who should tone it down and wait >for the Valium to take affect. For which I apologize to all >concerned. >I reread all your posts. Mixed in between the rancor and the >sarcasm, they make sense. >">I reread all your posts. Mixed in between the rancor and the > >sarcasm, they make sense." I had to repeat it just to know I wasn't wasting my time . . . >Oh, and by the way, I too, must apologize for my getting angry. >After your departure for Tasmania, I posted an apology to the >list which basically said that the next time I feel the urge to >merge logic and reason with emotion, I shall wait 24 hours to >cool off and the valium to kick in before hitting "SEND." I find it irresistable (that cursed ADD you know) to not press "Send" when I feel a good reposte is fully due and ready! Regards, Leanne ];-)
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 10 Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality From: Leanne Martin <leanne_martin@hotmail.com> Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 05:24:08 PST Fwd Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 07:53:29 -0500 Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com> >Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 19:31:49 EST >To: updates@globalserve.net >Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >>From: Leanne Martin <leanne_martin@hotmail.com> >>To: updates@globalserve.net >>Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >>Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 14:37:26 PST >>>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com> >>>Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 08:55:29 EST >>>To: updates@globalserve.net >>>Subject: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >>>The experience leaves one exceedingly disturbed, is entirely too >>>realistic and remains in the memory longer than the worst of >>>recurring dreams. IF it continues off and on over a lifetime, >>>the results of such a personal encounter are fascinatingly >>>personal. It is like getting raped, altho being a guy, I can >>>never truly relate to that. >><snip> >>>Dr. Gesundt. >>>A very old fool for my age. I could comment at this but I bight my tongue like you wouldn't believe . . . >>A nice read Jim (btw - sorry for miss spelling your name the >>other day - I realised it as soon as I hit 'Send'). >>In all seriousness . . . >>Do you know whether you needed a lot of hospital visits as an >>infant? What have your parents told you of your first two years >>of life? Were you a premature baby who needed life support? >There were no hospital visits at all... not until age 7 and that was >years AFTER these dream/memories/events. >>It strikes me as a possible cause of your dream as a toddler. I >>can understand if you see this as too intrusive. >Not at all. There was never even an ambulance even near our home, >yet I was taken by one.... and had never seen one. TV, while invented >:) was not in our home until I was 10 years old. We didn't even have >a car until I was 10. >>Does anyone know of any correlation between being a prem-baby >>and 'abduction' experiences? >As far as being a premature infant... interestingly I was the >opposite. I arrive VERY late in the pregnancy and was delivered >by C-section. As in life in general, I gave my poor mom a rough >time. She was in labor for seven days... that must've hurt a >lot... >No... no hospitals, no doc offices (except a lady perdiatrition >and she was TALL). No labs, no ambulances, no nothing. Just a >happy childhood.... and no, no mistreatment of any kind. Lotsa >love. Lotsa nurturing. >So, let's add it all up. >1) I was late >2) Never saw a hospital or lab until after these perceived >events >3) Ditto with an ambulance (yet I went to mom that very morning >and asked her why the ambulance took me away to the hopsital up >there last night... >4) No child abuse >5) rarely left the house and the pediatrition came to us. >6) Not only was I not premature they had to lift me out So you had to be extracted in an un-natural way. The baby being pre-programmed, normally, to be delivered only one one way i.e. non-C and non-breach. >7) My part of the delivery was a breeze... no squeezing thru a >narrow opening, no birth trauma. >This was 1943. And your mother nether took you to hospital (or church?) as a new infant - especially when she went for her own post C-section check-ups? Jim, Come and lie up on zis couch I haf some qfestions to ask of you... Where was your papa during all zis - away in WWII? (I could have some fun here . . .) Regards, Leanne
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 10 Re: Robert Todd On MJ-12 From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net> Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 09:22:41 -0400 Fwd Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 07:50:10 -0500 Subject: Re: Robert Todd On MJ-12 >Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 04:43:55 -0800 >From: Josh Goldstein <clearlt@pacbell.net> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: Re: Robert Todd On MJ-12 >>Date: Sun, 07 Feb 1999 07:39:05 -0600 >>From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com> >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Robert Todd On MJ-12 >>>Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 21:06:32 EST >>>To: updates@globalserve.net >>>Subject: Re: Open Letter: MJ-12 & Dr. Wood ><snip> >>>Unfortunately, it is all too easy to create fake documents, >>>especially when the perpetrators have the raw materials in their >>>own filing cabinets, gathered from years of researching the >>>Roswell incident, as in the case of Moore, Shandera, and >>>Friedman. >>Robert Todd The above statement is totally false. Perhaps if the list of items not known to be true but turning out that way after investigation as noted in TOP SECRET/MAJIC were read, it would make this clear. For example, nobody, certainly not myself or Moore or Shandera knew about Menzel's involvement with the CIA, NSA, etc until after I visited Harvard after getting permission from 3 different people to review Menzel's papers in l986 >Robert Todd, Ed Stewart, and Alfred Lehmberg: >I read the above post and did not reply until I scanned a number >of following posts to see if there was a reply by Stanton >Friedman. There was not so I will put my bits in. I thank Ed >Stewart for supporting Mr. Todd's above statements by posting >his article that originally appeared in Just Cause. I read it >when it was published and it certainly made me doubt any >authenticity. I certainly suspected the idea of it coming to Mr. >Shandera anonymously in the mail. Why? Have you met him? It was from Albuquerque. They had been in touch with people in Albuquerque. I am told many reporters receive plain brown envelopes. I was called and portions read to me after the film was developed in 1985. It wasn't publicized by the way until 1987..I was certainly dubious about Menzel. It is all too easy for people to claim, fraud, fake, and other techniques of research by proclamation rather than investigation. Some have suggested there is only one date format in use in government documents. I published several different ones. Klass claimed only Elite type not Pica. All he had was Elite. At the Archives one finds _Pica_ etc ad nauseum. >If I remember correctly (memory suspect), the package had an >Alamagordo postmark. When Bill Moore made his great "confession >of sin" before MUFON he tarnished his name. I don't remember >what year he claimed he began his stint with Doty for the OSI. >When did he start? How long before Paul Bennewitz was driven >over the edge? When Moore admitted he wanted to plant fake >documents was when he drove the last nail in his coffin. I was >very surprised when Stanton Friedman received his grant years >later to study the MJ-12 documents. Whose decision was that? I Why was anybody surprised? The FUND did a survey of its mailing list as to what topics they thought should be researched. MJ-12 was at the top. The FUND (because I had done much research at DC Archives, the Truman and Ike Libraries etc) asked me if I thought more work could be done and, if so, to submit a Research Proposal. I did. They sent it around seeking funds for my proposal. They raised the $16K quickly for my proposal. That money had to be used to fund my work. >would think that whoever wanted to grant would at least hire a >bona fide researcher who was outside the loop. I have always >suspected that these documents were products of one or more >birds in the infamous aviary - a disinformation ploy. As was the >"UFO Coverup Live" video. I suspect the above with the new >documents. I gather that Josh thinks I am not a bona fide researcher despite my publications in scientific journals and in UFO journals. I have a list of about 100 publications (nuclear, pop, and UFO) for those who think I am not. Suspicions in the absence of knowledge shouldn't carry much weight. Unlike many armchair theorists, I demonstratd a willingness to seek witnesses, to visit Archives seeking truth and some understanding of the documents of the time. My "Final Report of Operation Majestic 12" was a Fund bestseller and includes many corroborative documents and the list of reasons for saying the documents are genuine. If my son needed brain surgery, I wouldn't take him to a foot doctor just because brain surgeons are biased. Yes, I was biased for truth, for putting things in my gray basket rather than pronouncing judgements without investigation. >Alfred Lehmberg, Lately things have been peaceful on UpDates >following the last nasty brouhaha. I am interested in your >opinions - when presented in an intelligent and civil manner. I >wish you could maintain that. Your response to Mr. Todd's above >post was an attack characterized by name calling that makes me >once again wonder about your character. I'm not saying this to >support Mr. Todd. I just feel that to go that low is to call >your own credibility into question. It also makes me wonder >about how you serve the case of John Ford if you don't adhere to >a civil standard to make your points. >Josh Goldstein It seems strange indeed that Josh accuses Alfred of name calling, but accuses me of not being bonafide, of being a party to forgery and accepts equally false name calling charges from Todd. I gather that the fact that Todd has no scientific training, has never been to an archive, has never held a security clearance, has never published an article in a scientific journal, never held a professional job, all strengthen his claims!! I always had to satisfy my professors, employers, reviewers of journal submissions, etc. Bob has never had to satisfy anybody but himself. I guess that certainly means that everything he says is true and everything I say is a lie. Let me put it bluntly. I have never ever faked a document. Anybody who says I have or helped somebody else do so is a liar. Stan Friedman
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 10 Re: Abduction The Issue Of Reality From: Leanne Martin <leanne_martin@hotmail.com> Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 05:42:39 PST Fwd Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 08:00:52 -0500 Subject: Re: Abduction The Issue Of Reality >From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com> >Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 01:51:13 EST >To: updates@globalserve.net >Subject: Re: Abduction The Issue Of Reality >>From: Leanne Martin <leanne_martin@hotmail.com> >>To: updates@globalserve.net >>Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >>Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 14:37:26 PST >>>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com> >>>Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 08:55:29 EST >>>To: updates@globalserve.net >>>Subject: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality [was... 1999 UFO Alien...] >>>The experience leaves one exceedingly disturbed, is entirely too >>>realistic and remains in the memory longer than the worst of >>>recurring dreams. IF it continues off and on over a lifetime, >>>the results of such a personal encounter are fascinatingly >>>personal. It is like getting raped, altho being a guy, I can >>>never truly relate to that. >><snip> >>>Dr. Gesundt. >>>A very old fool for my age. >>G'day Jim (& List), >>A nice read Jim (btw - sorry for miss spelling your name the >>other day - I realised it as soon as I hit 'Send'). >>In all seriousness . . . >>Do you know whether you needed a lot of hospital visits as an >>infant? What have your parents told you of your first two years >>of life? Were you a premature baby who needed life support? >Leanne.... Hi and by the way.... >There were no hospital visits at all... not until age 7 and that >was years _after_ these dream/memories/events. Hi Jim, Sometimes we can visit a hospital and never see a need to be very consciously aware of it. Especially if the reason for being there is not for our own attention . . . >>It strikes me as a possible cause of your dream as a toddler. I >>can understand if you see this as too intrusive. >Not at all. For some reason, I lost the desire to hide these >events. I no longer care about anonymity. Doesn't matter. >Besides, when under the affluence of inkahol, specifically >Gripple Dripple con gas, all the memories sort of blur into an >LSD haze... >There was never an ambulance even near our home, yet I was taken >by one.... and had never seen one. As for hospitals >strategically located just _above_ #4031 Wickham Avenue in the >Bronx, well, need I say more? Sorry, but to an Australian yes - we aren't intimates of the U.S.Alian way of life even though we have been rather well inculcated via the swamping of our t.v. media with your cheap imports <g>. An ambulance may have been called for your mother with post C-section problems (howzat for a stretch?) >TV, while invented :) was not in our home until I was 10 years >old. We didn't even have a car until I was 10. >>Does anyone know of any correlation between being a prem-baby >>and 'abduction' experiences? >As far as being a premature infant... interestingly I was the >opposite. I arrived _very_ late in the pregnancy and was >delivered by C-section. As in life in general, I gave my poor >mom a rough time. She was in labor for seven days... that >must've hurt a lot... poor thing told me about this over and >over... but only after I was a dozen or so years old. "Very late" may have been all the more reason for your mother to go to hospital for checkups. In labour (sorry Oz spelling again) for s-e-v-e-n days! Were any more born after you? [I was the middle one of even myself - dashed Catholic contraception] Or are an only child? ** Has anyone got any stats on 'abduction' experiences and the number of 'abductee's' siblings?** >No... no hospitals, no doc offices (except a lady pediatrition >and she was TALL). No labs, no ambulances, no nothing. Just a >happy childhood.... and no, no mistreatment of any kind. Lotsa >love. Lotsa nurturing. >So, let's add it all up. >1) I was late and delivered by C-section >2) Never saw a hospital or lab until after these perceived > events >3) Ditto with an ambulance (yet I went to mom that very morning > and asked her why the ambulance took me away to the hopsital > up there last night... >4) No child abuse (grandma would have murdered the bastard(s) >5) rarely left the house and the pediatrition came to us. >6) Not only was I not premature they had to lift me out. I just > was not interested in leaving that nice, warm, safe place. >7) My part of the delivery was a breeze... no squeezing thru a > narrow opening, no birth trauma. >As I am told the story, I was just laying in there minding my >own business, when all of a sudden the lights came on. Well, >what was I to do. What would you do had it been you?!? I let out >with a blood curdling scream and told that _huge_ surgeon to >mind his own beeswax and put me back.... too damned noisey out >here! Now I have it on good authority that they were wearing >green. So not having seen any little green men, only pastey >short dudes, I can testify that it was not them. As to the >insectoids, unless there was a praying mantis infestation in >mommy's tummy, it could not be from that nine plus months in >there. I do believe that babies are pre-programmed to 'expect' a 'normal' canal birth. It would be interesting to know what a 'non-normal' birth may cause an infant to think of its world. >So, I guess that leaves me with seeing things like funny looking >vehicles and hospitals with undercarriages over my house. Funny >thing is though, I was only three or four. What a forkina >imagination! Not only am I good lookin, I am also smart as a >seven year old.... even to this day. I bet your fuggina extra good lookin'! Jim, what a rapport we have going here. . . >I know. It doesn't make sense no matter how you look at it. BTW, >does it matter if I was or was not breast fed? I was. Too bad I >was too young to remember that. To this day I always keep my >eyes closed whenever I drink milk. I wasn't always so smart! Regards Leanne ];-)
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 10 Research Query: Abductees - Any Blind Abductees? From: Leanne Martin <leanne_martin@hotmail.com> Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 05:52:44 PST Fwd Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 08:20:15 -0500 Subject: Research Query: Abductees - Any Blind Abductees? G'day List, There has been much discussion of late that has had to with what a particular abductee (any abductee) may have reported seeing as a characteristic, or set of characteristics, of their abducting alien/s. Also, what tie-in there may have been between the reported visual characteristics and what the abductee may have been exposed to as visual stimuli prior to abduction, i.e. science fiction beings. Question: Are there any reported cases of abductees having been blind, and if so, what were their reported inpressions of the physical nature, as well as other characteristics, of their alien abductors? Regards, Leanne ];-)
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 10 Re: Tim Matthews From: Jonathan Dyton <jon@wibble.powernet.co.uk> Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 14:08:30 GMT Fwd Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 08:37:15 -0500 Subject: Re: Tim Matthews >From: Max Burns <AlienHype@aol.com> >Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 19:18:05 EST >To: Updates@globalserve.net >Subject: Fwd: Tim Matthews (aka Tim Hepple) >----- >Subject: Re: Tim Matthews (aka Tim Hepple) >Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 09:00:10 +0900 >From: Duncan M. Roads <nexus@peg.apc.org> >To: <AlienHype@AOL.COM>, <matthews@zetnet.co.uk> >I really wonder why anyone wastes any time playing with this >guy. His emails to NEXUS portrays a person who comes across as >one with "a kangaroo loose in the top paddock". <snip> Hi. Yeah, lots of this did the rounds last year. No doubt Andy's 'Armchair Ufologist' kicking much of it off. A quick look on the Alta Vista search engine is hardly the hardest thing in the world to do and Andy did suggest you do it and find out for yourselves... I've just finished Tim's book actually and its pretty good stuff. It's not gushing in awe of unexistent 'Nazi Technology'. There's plenty of anecdotal evidence there, eyewitnesses etc, but not a bad case for putting the view point of secret man-made flying objects. Actually, some of its pretty daminng and changed my outlook on many cases - but then thats just my opinion what do I know. I think Tim's said in print that investigation of Nazi secret technology and Project Paperclip etc, doesn't mean you agree with the Nazis. Does this mean that anyone who believes in man-made saucers dating back to captured plans, scientists and technology is a Nazi? Instantly enough to put off anyone looking.....The man has denounced the Nazis and their doing's. The point is, do you believe his book and his conclusions? And why if he's such a nutter, MI5's bitch etc, is he doing this important work, whilst the UFO field, as a whole, pushes the ETH viewpoint almost exclusivley? I draw you to the cash Nick Pope gets for his yearly pile of rubbish and the cash Matthews got - but you'll have to ask them for the figures as I'm not saying them here! Theres money in aliens and bugger-all in more mundaine explanations... Another thing. This attempt to de-stabalise the UK UFO magazines? Err, that was 3 years ago, we saw the begining of it at Quest's summer conference when that guy asked Pope about the Welsh UFO crash. Basically a few guys with genuine Official Secrets acts were going about claiming to have recovered aliens and all that stuff 20 odd years ago. I spoke to Nick Redfern and they'd tried it on with him, but he didn't bite. I think Mr Dodd did as did several others in the UK, in 96/97. This of course all coincided with Popes book in 1996... Humm Nice. I was unaware of the Taxi driver story. Hmmm... Thing is, this is trying to push the ETH, captured saucers, etc., side with no real evidence, with people involved who seem to have the right credentials... This is totaly at loggerheads with Matthew's book and anything he's written in the last 3 years to my mind. Cripes, could I accuse Max of working for MI5, if his opinions and findings are closer to the hoax thats being perpertrated on the country currently, i.e. Extraterrestrial Black Triangles, if I didn't like what he said? Maybe Tim meant the "I don't drive" bit as a joke...? Simple fact is, theres only _one_ UFO magazine now in the UK - UFO Magazine. Fortean Times covering a broad church, and as anyone who's read Kevin's fantastic Abduction Watch (The man who exposed the on-going "destablement" of the UFO comunity) will know they don't need outside influences to write the occasional article of total drivel....but every little helps... To finish off - Max mate, do you have a name for this body and a number or something for this plane that was shot down? I'd just be really interested to know thats all mate. Err, the Linda M.H. thing goes back to Derek Sheffield's Book, in regard to, as I recall, her coming over to Britain to investigate a UFO wave that was due to start the following week? Something like that. I'll dig the book out, see what he said, I know from talking to Tim, this is what he doesn't quite get... (me neither) It's just my opinions anyway, but you might like to rip into me off list.. Thats all, all the best, Cheers Jonathan Dyton http://area51.icom.net
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 10 Re: Robert Todd On MJ-12 From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com> Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 08:29:08 -0600 Fwd Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 08:41:51 -0500 Subject: Re: Robert Todd On MJ-12 >Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 04:43:55 -0800 >From: Josh Goldstein <clearlt@pacbell.net> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: Re: Robert Todd On MJ-12 >>Date: Sun, 07 Feb 1999 07:39:05 -0600 >>From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com> >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Robert Todd On MJ-12 >>>Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 21:06:32 EST >>>To: updates@globalserve.net >>>Subject: Re: Open Letter: MJ-12 & Dr. Wood ><snip> >>>Unfortunately, it is all too easy to create fake documents, >>>especially when the perpetrators have the raw materials in their >>>own filing cabinets, gathered from years of researching the >>>Roswell incident, as in the case of Moore, Shandera, and >>>Friedman. >>Robert Todd >Robert Todd, Ed Stewart, and Alfred Lehmberg: <snipped assertions, suspicions, and unctuous civilities> >Alfred Lehmberg, Lately things have been peaceful on UpDates >following the last nasty brouhaha. Yeah -- well. Stanton Friedman has done more to achieve mainstream respect for ufological matters than perhaps any other. He's been at it longer, more actively, and has used more science than most. He has managed to maintain a spotless reputation in a field where many disgrace themselves, out of hand, or, at least, embroil themselves in confusions of controversy and contemptible clap trap. Mr. Friedman has stayed above all that, maintained a rational level headedness -- _and_ been a service to us all. Cheap shots, exaggerated minutia, and character assassination are not Mr. Friedman's style -- just the *honored* opposition. My contribution to 'brouha' is an honest reaction to the conveniently myopic-pee-on-your-shoes-and-tell-you-it's raining-or-sell-you-a-dog-that-won't-hunt -- crowd ... the Korff-Stephens-Todd triad of turgid, backward-facing ineptitude <g>.This is the crowd that lacks courage, imagination, and depth. This is the crowd that would have us retreat to a sociological stone age. This is the crowd you should chastise and correct. Not me! You only make _ME_ worse <g>! >I am interested in your >opinions - when presented in an intelligent and civil manner. I >wish you could maintain that. You conclude that a debate of passion and intensity is necessarily symptomatic of a loss in intelligence or civility? How boringly bizarre. >Your response to Mr. Todd's above >post was an attack characterized by name calling that I challenge you to point to an example in the text. Mr. Todd made a strong implication that Stanton Friedman is a liar and a cheat, getting a lot closer to name calling than I ever did. I think I used considerable restraint. I regret _nothing_ in the exchange. >makes me >once again wonder about your character. . . .have _that_ any way you want it. _Your_ reaction only increases _my_ resolve. _I'm_ comfortable with my character -- that's the long and the short of it. You get like that after 50 -- I've got no one left to impress, in this world, but myself. Go fish. >I'm not saying this to >support Mr. Todd. I just feel that to go that low is to call >your own credibility into question. "And just how low _was_ it, Johnny"? If you're refering to BOHICA -- this is Mr. Todd's discription of _himself_. It's his call sign after all. Some real intelligence, credibility, and civility there -- eh, mon frere? >It also makes me wonder >about how you serve the case of John Ford if you don't adhere to >a civil standard to make your points. Talk about apples and oranges taken for green pomegranates. John Ford is not being served at all, by anyone -- Josh! That's the problem. That you would use _him_ as a whip to strike out, without a scintilla of other support, says a lot more about you, than me! Or perhaps I missed _your_ verbal support or contribution. Support the real researchers, Josh, not the shoo-fly cheap-shot artists, mired by their lack of vision and abundant intellectual cowardice to the muddy end of the gene pool. Looking forward to your contribution to John Ford's fund -- Josh. Lehmberg@snowhill.com -- Explore the Alien View! Ponder the Wit & Wisdom of Ching Chow! "Unstill Life" -- Animation . . . and more. http://www.fortunecity.com/roswell/arecibo/46/ <Updated 8 February> John Ford Restoration Fund -- Send your checks and money orders to _me_, Alfred Lehmberg (cut out the lawyers, they got their's) at: 304 Melbourne Drive, Enterprise AL, 36330. Strict records kept. "Only thin, _very light_ envelopes with a return address will be accepted <g>." ~~~ $250.00 pledged -- $150.00 collected ~~~ "I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see from afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, while burning at the fundamentalist's stake.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 10 Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com> Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 09:36:07 -0500 Fwd Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 08:46:19 -0500 Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 19:19:26 -0500 <snip> Speaking about the 1939 'War of the Worlds' broadcast, Greg mentioned: >Ah. Well, first the drama wasn't so clearly labelled fiction. It >was presented as if it was news. It began as if it was a >broadcast of dance music. The music was interrupted by a news >bulletin -- a meteor has fallen. Successive news bulletins told >us about the Martians emerging from the meteor, shooting people >with their heat rays, and so on. Only at the end was the frame >of a news broadcast breached, and the show revealed as radio >drama. I have the entire broadcast on tape, and it was clearly fictional if you tuned in at the beginning and heard the disclaimer. Of course, those that tuned in late didn't have that advantage, which is why it generated the response that it did. Several modern versions of this type of 'reality drama' have been broadcast by the major television networks, and they've made every effort to warn viewers that they're viewing a fictional event because of the perceived danger that was identified and defined by the Orson Welles broadcast so many years ago. >Second, recent research (documented on the Project 1947 list) >seems to show that the broadcast didn't cause nearly the panic >most people believe. This depends on how you define "panic" I think, and I'll have to admit that I wasn't too impressed with the discussion of this subject on the P-47 list. It is obvious that it evoked a response, or we wouldn't be talking about it today. I believe it also evoked a response at the time that resulted in the authorities going to the studio to shut down the production because of the reaction it was causing, which is no small matter. While it might be argued that this event was not one that impacted tens of thousands of people, it was very horrific for those that were caught up in the drama at the time. A number of sociologists have studied this through the years, and its good to keep in mind that they are in part limited by their own perspective and research. ===== As I sit and think about this program, I'm curious to know if this event was part of the Robertson Panel discussion in 1952 or the 1960 (?) Brookings Institute Report? Steve
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 10 Riddle of The Skies: Part 2. From: Ian Darlington <webmaster@interweb-design.co.uk> Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 14:52:54 -0000 Fwd Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 08:49:21 -0500 Subject: Riddle of The Skies: Part 2. 'Riddle of The Skies' Produced by Union Skyline for Channel 4 In the second of a three part series currently airing on UK television, we were presented with eyewitness accounts from various pilots, air traffic controllers (ATC) and the military. As this was simply a series of witness interviews and supporting information, I will list the various reports used: * A Lufthansa pilot who had two sightings over two years; a recording of a conversation he had with ATC was played. * Capt. Courant who saw objects over Albuquerque which was verified by other pilots in the area at the time. * Capt. Graham Shepherd's well-known sighting whilst flying for a British airline of a 30ft disc which flew past his aircraft just a few meters away. Although, like most other pilots he did not report the sighting officially at the time, he said he believes there is a huge resource of sightings that have never been reported. * Various reports from Mexico; one air traffic controller was quoted as saying "We need to inform the pilots of what is there." * Few sightings are reported officially. Of those that have been is the case of Mexicana 180 which Capt. Cervantes reported a collision with an object that damaged the landing gear. The damage was officially listed as "metal fatigue". * In Chile there has been an official investigation by the CAA with the help of the air force. The study analysed reports from pilots, ATC, air force, army and flying clubs. * One sighting mentioned was that of an air force pilot who was ordered to intercept an unknown aircraft and watched as it performed a 90 degree turn at mach 5. The programme then went on to question whether the sightings were secret technology being tested and used. * A brief clip of the Lockheed 'Dark Star' was shown. * John Pike of the Federation of American Scientists then spoke about the $30-35 billion 'black budget' and how there are exotic aircraft in operation with characteristics that remain secret. * Next up was Jack Picket who claims that in the 1960s he witnessed 'flying saucers' on a USAF base. He was told that it was these USAF aircraft that were responsible for all UFO sightings and Roswell. Although there are no official records to corroborate these claims, 'Project Silver Bug' in 1957 claimed to use a 'radial flow engine'. The programme then moved on to exotic new propulsion, highlighting such well-known projects as Aurora to ask if these might not be responsible for modern sightings; claiming that NASAs X-33 is a follow-on from Aurora. Next was Edgar Fouche who claims to have repaired and modified craft at Area 51. He presented information that included having to wear vision-restricting goggles whilst outside his work area and claimed that the TR3-B triangle craft is responsible for the triangle sightings of recent years and that it was copied from ET craft. He said the craft uses: a circular accelerator with mercury-based plasma rotating at 60,000 rpm, pressurised to 250,000 atm at 150 degrees Kelvin. The pilots interviewed unanimously agreed that it was unlikely that secret aircraft were responsible for their sightings, saying that they would keep them out of known traffic lanes and their manoeuvres were too impressive. Then Project Blue Book was mentioned, as well as the 20 year official Russian investigation undertaken with the help of the Academy of Sciences. The results of this investigation are available to the public in libraries and included 7,700 official reports (500 cases in just a few years). The conclusions were that the study should continue; and alien intelligence could not be ruled out, although there are several different solutions. A similar conclusion was reached by a separate study carried out by the armed forces of the Volga Steppe secret installations, as well as the Academy of Sciences and secret services. This proved conclusively that the sightings were not secret weapons tests. Quote: "We are obliged to report that an alien civilisation is present." Although there is no proof that this report exists, when challenged that UFOs were being used to cover up military secrets, a Russian General denied this saying: "No other explanation makes sense." ******REPORT ENDS********** Next week's instalment aims to present the proof of UFO reality. Report by Ian Darlington. Editor/Webmaster 'Skywatchers'. Cornwall UFO Research Group http://www.interweb-design.co.uk/cuforg mailto:cuforg@interweb-design.co.uk ICQ 12387110
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 10 Tribute To Skynet From: Mike Farrell <mikefarr@midcoast.com.au> Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 02:08:44 +1100 Fwd Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 08:54:59 -0500 Subject: Tribute To Skynet ____________ Feb. 9, 1999 Greetings UFO Researchers, We have reached a landmark moment in UFO Video Evidence! And it took just one week to reach it! With the recent news of the "Rise and Fall" of the Skynet website from Tom King <http://www.ufovideo.com/> we are left with one inescapable and sobering conclusion. The "Video Vigilante" Movement has reached critical mass! The demand to "see" what's really going on around us, with open eyes and open minds, has outstripped the affordable consumer technology available to share the UFO video evidence, that is now being gathered in increasing quantity and quality from all over our world. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >Skynet has only been online for 1 week and our site report tells >us over 15 gig were downloaded in just 1 week. >With over 95,000 hits and over 5,500 visitors to the site. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Our best human minds even 50 years ago didn't forsee the day when too many people would be looking to download the same information. I doubt if even the "aliens" had any idea what would happen to their "best laid plans" when the video camera and the computer became a common tool of human kind. And what we've just seen with the short-lived success of SKYNET, is only the beginning of a revolution in attitude and approach towards solving the UFO Mystery. What we are witnessing is the empowerment of the ordinary man and woman to meet the cosmos on his and her own terms. The result is an expansion of thought that will help to change the limited ways we look at each other and our universe, and will help to boldly pave our way into a larger world of possibilities. TOM KING, single-handedly, and with the cooperation and support of the SKYNET Team and UFO Video Enthusiasts all over the world, has showed us all that the "demand" for UFO video evidence has never been greater. TOM KING has also proven that we need each other just to handle the inquiring attention of thousands and millions of awakening minds. It's going to take many kinds of "SKYNETs" from many parts of the world to answer the call of the growing population who feel the "need to know". ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >I think we set a record or something. Our Internet Server has NEVER >heard of a single website pulling that much traffic. He informed me >that most servers don't pull that much traffic with all of their >clients they host combined. He said the average Internet server that >host domains only pulls about 20 gigs per month for all of the clients >they have. We're out doing them with just one site. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ The figures don't lie! Up until now, we've seen too much "competition" between websites and researchers. This urge to compete has strangled the natural growth of the "awareness process". We've all known this for years now, yet we are still too slow to put into practice what we preach. Now, more than ever, we have to realize the value of linking up our efforts to inform and educate the world to the accelerating emergence of a new and wider reality. And "WE" means all of us who think of ourselves as UFO Researchers! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >Everything but the MPEG files will remain in place and we are currently >working on new sites that are almost ready for you. Including a Hockey puck >shot on tape just 100 feet from the camera. The best puck footage ever shot! >And baseball sized red orb UFOs caught on tape only 50 feet from the camera! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Everyday, we are getting closer to capturing "undeniable evidence" of the UFO Intelligence on videotape. Everyday, we are finding better and quicker ways to show and share this kind of evidence to an ever widening audience. And there are many other UFO websites "out there" trying to do the same job. How can we bring it all under one roof for the convenience of the Internet user, so that whatever "evidence" we gather, can be made available for review and analysis, immediately and completely? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >"We are going to see more and more of these visitors from space and >before too long, the evidence will be incontrovertible. That you will >have on your television screens concrete evidence, that the ships are >here and that they are real and that they're not fantastic things >cooked up to make movies." (a contactee at "Giant Rock" convention in USA in 1958) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ And now some 40 years later, we are witnesses to the kind of positive action that says, YES! We will put "concrete evidence" up on your TV screens and your computer screens. And you will "see" that UFOs ARE REAL and that they're not fantastic things cooked up to make movies! Tom King's SKYNET site will be long cherished as one of those "passionate projects" that helped to wake us up to the benefits of "sharing and caring"! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ TOM KING has presented us with a valuable lesson in the promising potential and the hidden drawbacks of mass communication. I've heard some express the opinion that "pioneers" like Tom King are too arrogant, too unrealistic, too impractical, too impatient, too determined, and too demanding to inspire the kind of cooperation that is needed to bring this UFO video evidence to the peoples of this world. I can only respond to that with a reminder of a harsh fact... __________________________________________________ YOU NEED A SLEDGEHAMMER TO BREAK DOWN A BRICK WALL! Tom King is one of our strongest "sledgehammers", and the brick wall is our world's denial mechanism. This wall served it's purpose in giving us time to adjust to "new things in the heavens"... Now this same "brick wall" stands between us and the Truth of our Existence. So, we need all the "sledgehammers" we can get to bring this "Wall of Secrecy" all the way down!!! ************************************************************** Another "King" had this to say about "breaking down the wall": "The point is, that whatever's on offer should be available to everybody, and not just the elite few. If there's something to be learned from the meeting of two worlds, two cultures, two civilizations (ours and theirs) then, well surely everybody has a right to participate in the process, and in the results of that process? But the fact of the matter is we're unlikely to learn anything if knowledge of the ET presence remains the exclusive right of the "military-industrial complex and the intelligence community". To my mind, the whole "secrecy thing" is a dinosaur. It's a dinosaur that's escaped extinction for too long. It needs to be addressed. And it needs to be addressed now!" (Jon King, author of "Cosmic Top Secret-The Unseen Agenda") ******************************************************* Congradulations, TOM KING, on a remarkable job with SKYNET! I'm sure you'll find some way to give all those who want to "see", a chance to look and be amazed! And to wonder at it all!!! ******************************************************* "It Always Comes Down to the Initiative of Individuals! This is Who We Are!" ********************* Good on ya', mate!!! ___________________________ Think Globally-Act Locally! SKYNET Representative for Australia Mike Farrell ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Director of Project GUFONE '98 (Global UFO Newsvideo Exchange) http://www.fan.net.au/~tkbnetw/mikes.htm http://www.ufor.asn.au ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ P.O.Box 2526 Port Macquarie New South Wales 2444 Australia ************************************************************* "Why are all those like yourselves who believe in the existence of extra-terrestrial life on this earth, not dissuaded by all the evidence to the contrary? Because all the evidence to the contrary, is NOT entirely dissuasive!" (X-Files Episode) *************************************************************
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 10 Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com> Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 10:10:01 EST Fwd Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 08:58:26 -0500 Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net> >Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >Date: Mon, 08 Feb 99 16:18:33 PST >>From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net> >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >>Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >>Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 17:14:02 -0500 <snip> >>Hmmm...I'm in the happy position of agreeing with everybody. >>Jerry, I, too, think Kevin's catch doesn't mean all that much, >>for all the reasons you give, but in my view Kevin did make a >>contribution to the discussion by bringing it up. >Greg, I mean no disrespect to Kevin, who's one of the good >guys. I just happen -- like you -- not to be persuaded by what >I have seen so far of his attempts to explain the abduction >phenomenon. Still, I do look forward to seeing his argument in >full. I have no doubt it will be interesting and informative, >even if it turns out not to be fully convincing. >Jerry Clark Jerry - I have not tried to explain all abductions in terms of pop culture. I have suggested that some abduction witnesses have reported creatures and elements that are well established in pop culture and that is all. I have suggested that pop culture might have influenced some of the witnesses who have claimed abduction. When the full story is written, I believe that there will be multiple answers of which a pop culture influence will be nothing more than a small part of the whole. And before we have another grammar lesson, I know that it should have AMONG there, their and they're and not between there, their and they're. KRandle
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 10 Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com> Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 10:12:52 EST Fwd Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 09:04:09 -0500 Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 18:12:26 -0600 (CST) >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net> >Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >>From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com> >>Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 22:05:57 EST >>To: updates@globalserve.net >>Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >>Jerry, I know the difference between phenomena and phenomenon, >>just as I know the difference between there, their and they're, >>though I sometimes use the wrong one (though with spell checker, >>they're all spelled right). I even know the difference between >>effect and affect. And I know that there is no such thing as the >>Congressional Medal of Honor but I don't correct people (well, >>not always) when they say that. <snip> >>KRandle >Kevin, List, >Well, that may be as is. However, I would like to inform >everyone within earshot that I am now accepting donations for >the Widow of the Unknown Soldier Fund, or WUSF. Need I point out >that their children are starving? Checks, money orders and >credit cards only, please! >Dennis Dennis - Let me amend my statement to read, but there is a Medal of Honor. It hasn't been called the Congressional Medal of Honor officially for a long time. KRandle PS: Sign me up for the widow's and orphan's fund.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 10 Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality From: Brian Straight <brians@mdbs.com> Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 10:56:40 -0500 Fwd Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 09:05:42 -0500 Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 19:19:26 -0500 >>From: Leanne Martin <leanne_martin@hotmail.com> >>To: updates@globalserve.net >>Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >>Date: Sun, 07 Feb 1999 20:21:01 PST >>Of course!!!! You may have amnesia about the true effects of >>the Orsone Welles "War Of The Worlds" broadcast on American >>society?? What better proof do you need? A radio drama clearly >>labeled a work of fiction having massive psychological impact on >>a few individuals. They in turn passed on the panic and so it >>spread. > >Ah. Well, first the drama wasn't so clearly labelled fiction. It >was presented as if it was news. It began as if it was a >broadcast of dance music. The music was interrupted by a news >bulletin -- a meteor has fallen. Successive news bulletins told >us about the Martians emerging from the meteor, shooting people >with their heat rays, and so on. Only at the end was the frame >of a news broadcast breached, and the show revealed as radio >drama. What is interesting here is the 'frame' itself. Although news articles stated that the drama was interrupted three times to inform listeners that they were listening to the Mercury Theater, very few people noticed. The convention of listening to news was so ingrained that individuals were simply unable to break out of that frame and think logically. For example, the toal elapsed time on the broadcast from the landing of the martians to the mobilization of the national guard was about fifteen minutes. Thirty minutes into the broadcast, the martians had defeated the military and were moving on NYC. Considering it takes many hours to mobilize an effective force in the field, we can only conclude that listeners suspended their critical faculties and were swept along without reference to what was an impossibly abbreviated timeline. Similarly, I was in the UK when Alternative 3 was shown. ITV advertised the show as an examination of cases of "missing people." It was a fascinating show, and it was rather disappointing when I recognized a prominent British actor in the cast. Very few people could have failed to recognize this individual, but somehow that documentary 'frame' over rode the drama 'frame' for most viewers. They 'saw' exactly what they were told they were supposed to see--a documentary on the conspiracy behind missing people. I would argue that our lives are very much governed by such 'frames.' They tell us what to expect an how to behave in all sorts of situations, from restaurants and laundromats, to work, and yes, even UFO lists. For many individuals, the frame is the reality. Run a news broadcast from a respected source and tell people that the UFOs are invading, and I guarantee you'll get bucketloads of reports, some from very credible witnesses. With all due caveats re reductionism etc., I would suggest that frame analysis is an interesting methodology for approaching some aspects of the UFO phenomenon. Brian
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 10 Re: Tim Matthews From: Tim Matthews <matthews@zetnet.co.uk> Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 16:11:44 -0000 Fwd Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 09:10:09 -0500 Subject: Re: Tim Matthews >From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >To: UFO UpDates Subscribers:; >Subject: UFO UpDate: Tim Matthews >Date: 09 February 1999 10:12 >From: Max Burns <AlienHype@aol.com> >Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 19:18:05 EST >To: Updates@globalserve.net >Subject: Fwd: Tim Matthews (aka Tim Hepple) >----- >Subject: Re: Tim Matthews (aka Tim Hepple) >Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 09:00:10 +0900 >From: Duncan M. Roads <nexus@peg.apc.org> >To: <AlienHype@AOL.COM>, <matthews@zetnet.co.uk> >I really wonder why anyone wastes any time playing with this >guy. His emails to NEXUS portrays a person who comes across as >one with "a kangaroo loose in the top paddock". >I take a moment to repost what I posted last year when he was >frothing at the mouth over various and sundry. >Tim Mathews - who took a swipe at Linda Moulton Howe and her >interview published the August-September 1998 issue of NEXUS - >has quite a diverse history. >According to Lobster #34 Oh dear - no credibility straight away! >Tim Mathews (aka Tim Hepple) is very >well known in extreme right-wing groups as an agent provocateur. Ha Ha - and then you woke up!! >He has been connected to the intelligence front/asset known as >Combat 18, and to the Israeli intelligence linked Searchlight >newspaper. Fiction out of fiction! Oh Dear! Yawny Yawn. Obviously Max and Duncan are bored. Compared with the various right-wing and conspiratorial dregs associated with 'Nexus' magazine over the years this nonsense comes as a source of some amusement and perhaps Duncan has been playing with kangaroos a little too closely himself. In a previous email he actually claimed to have saved numerous lives through sales of various pills, potions and cures advertised in his magazine. A slight touch of megalomania methinks! "Our Saviour".....not. The fact that I briefly assisted the 'Searchlight' organisation - one supported by numerous Labour MPs and Euro MPs as well as trades unions in Britain and Europe - counter some very serious right-wing terrorist threats and expose the machinations of some particularly nasty racists 7 years ago (how long?) should be a cause for celebration but I am not surprised that Duncan Rhoads chooses to complain! Neither does this ancient history - about which everyone knows and are not interested to hear again - alter the fact that Linda Moulton-Howe is a major source of actual REAL disinformation. Her total lack of mention of the facts surrounding 'Project Argus' is especially interesting as is her constant naivet=E9 in relation to supposed 'inside sources' (who appear unable to get basic facts about aircraft correct!) I have exposed these for what they are - no wonder we have her now running for cover...... Remember Richard Doty? If anyone who reads 'Nexus' magazine has a problem with my anti-fascism I suggest they email me personally. Duncan and Max's postings are music to the ears of right-wing extremists everywhere. Let's hope they're proud of their latest "achievement"!! As to 'Lobster' magazine all I can say is that its' support for a real intelligence asset who admits to having done deals with UK intelligence (Yes, '"Dr." Armen Victorian') and its support for 'Combat 18' contact Larry O'Hara says more than enough about the shocking state of its readership - not to mention Robin Ramsays' complete inability to grasp reality. He obviously doesn't get out enough! By the way. What has this got to do with Ufology? It's also interesting to see that Max has something else in common with Combat 18; drug-dealing. Maybe Ramsay and Rhoads could investigate that. They obviously have nothing better to do! >Judging by his ranting comments about the likelihood of NEXUS >linking him with the intelligence community - I'd say he >fantasises about being an 'agent' quite a lot. Although, having >said that, Australian intelligence (an oxymoron if ever there >was one) has often seen fit to use deniable assets with >questionable mental states to infiltrate and agitate target >groups of various political or religious persuasions. >For those interested there was an update on Tim Hepple/Matthews >in Lobster #35 in which Tim admits to joining political groups >in order to pass on names and addresses to their enemies. More utter fantasy. I don't think many people take 'Lobster' seriously and all of O'Haras/Ramsays/Victorians' claims have been totally exposed as the sad fantasy that they are. This latest attack has _everything_ to do with the fact that I'm far too close to certain realities relating to the study of UFO phenomena. Ufology; this is my actual interest and passion - not the sad teenage ravings of a few low-life conspiracy buffs. >He actually seems quite proud of it! Well I don't sell militia videos in any of my publications......
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 10 Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net> Date: Tue, 09 Feb 99 10:22:51 PST Fwd Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 09:12:02 -0500 Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >From: Leanne Martin <leanne_martin@hotmail.com> >To: updates@globalserve.net >Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >Date: Sun, 07 Feb 1999 20:21:01 PST >>From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net> >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >>Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >>Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 22:02:15 -0500 >>>From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com> >>>Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 09:44:20 EST >>>To: updates@globalserve.net >>>Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >>An important piece missing from all these arguments for media >>influence would be other examples of this purported phenomenon >>at work. That is, can anyone think of something else in real >>life with the emotional force of the abduction phenomenon that >>clearly, indisputably was created by pop culture? (Where are the >>social scientists? Why is a complex question like this one, >>which ought to be informed by specialized professional >>knowledge, left to amateurs like Kevin, me, Mark Cashman, Martin >>Kottmeyer, and Jerry Clark?) >Of course!!!! You may have amnesia about the true effects of >the Orsone Welles "War Of The Worlds" broadcast on American >society?? What better proof do you need? A radio drama clearly >labeled a work of fiction having massive psychological impact on >a few individuals. They in turn passed on the panic and so it >spread. Boy, I'd sure require "better proof" than this. The Orson Welles War of the Worlds broadcast was a unique occurrence, and its application to UFO matters is far from clear. What evidence is there that Mars Needs Women -- obscure even by the standards of ephemeral low-budget SF flicks -- generated any kind of hysteria whatever? This is no argument at all, and all too typical of the looseness (to put it charitably) of speculations that seek to tie abduction phenomena to specific cultural stimuli. Not, of course, that the hypothesis is inherently observed; it's just that nobody so far has succeeded in demonstrating it except by ex cathedra pronouncement and indifference to the documenting of causal links. Jerry Clark
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 10 Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net> Date: Tue, 09 Feb 99 10:47:44 PST Fwd Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 13:12:24 -0500 Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com> >Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 22:05:57 EST >To: updates@globalserve.net >Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net> >>Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >>Date: Sun, 07 Feb 99 11:29:03 PST >>>From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com> >>>Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 20:44:18 EST >>>To: updates@globalserve.net >>>Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >>Kevin, with all due respect, you have said nothing at all here. >>You have demonstrated nothing beyond coincidence. I have the >>feeling, however, that when I read your book, I will find that >>you have dismissed Schirmer's experience -- even with its >>consciously recalled UFO sighting and puzzling missing time -- >>as generated in some fashion by this silly movie. >Yes, look at the picture that Schirmer drew and look at the >aliens from the movie and ask yourself if they don't >resemble one another. Ask yourself if there were other >cases in which such is the case and then ask yourself if it >isn't possible that the two resemble one another through >something other than coincidence. I remain unconvinced, since you have yet to show us -- as you would have to if your remarks are to go beyond the purely speculative -- that Schirmer saw or even heard of the movie, obscure even to somebody like me who in those days was a serious SF buff (and who, moreover, has lived in the Midwest all his life, including the year Mars Needs Women was showing in that region). You have not shown, either, that any other features from the movie appear in Schirmer's narrative. I _would_ be impressed if you could show a constellation of similarities beyond this one, not overwhelmingly impressive example. >Then ask yourself if the Schirmer sighting is anything more >than the observations of a police officer of a UFO. Are there >any corroborating witnesses, or is this a single witness >case? Is there any corroborating physical evidence such as >landing traces? A surprising statement coming from someone who surely knows that the UFO literature is full of single-witness, nonphysical-evidence cases which all of us take seriously for various good reasons. I was unaware that sightings by individual police officers of UFOs are simply ignorable. And I suppose he made up the missing-time aspect, too? >You might also notice that anything that is said that suggests >that a specific abduction might not be a solid case is >attacked. You might also notice that some of the arguments made >by the pro-abduction people suffer from the a lack of causal >relations, corroborative evidence, or any physical evidence >that could support a claim of abduction. What we need on both sides of the abduction controversy are better arguments, better evidence. Just as much of the pro-abduction literature suffers from this shortcoming, so does much of the anti- abduction literature. There is so much thoughtless slagging of the abduction phenomenon, and as much overstatement on the uncritically negative as on the uncritically positive side, that I think a reality check is needed regularly. At least the pro-abduction people, whether ultimately right or wrong, understand that there is something out there in need of an explanation better than any we've heard so far. Jerry Clark
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 10 Re: Abductions and Researcher Bias From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net> Date: Tue, 09 Feb 99 10:52:35 PST Fwd Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 13:16:36 -0500 Subject: Re: Abductions and Researcher Bias >From: Joseph Polanik <jpolanik@mindspring.com >Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 21:54:32 -0500 (EST) >To: updates@globalserve.net >Subject: Abductions and Researcher Bias >Abductions and Researcher Bias >by Martin Kottmeyer >(originally appeared in The Devil's Advocate magazine/website, >http://www.ksinc.net/~devilsad/ufo.htm Listfolk: Thomas E. Bullard's point-by-point refutation of Kottmeyer's article will appear in the next (Spring 1999) issue of International UFO Reporter. IUR, published quarterly, is a available for $25 for four issues from: J. Allen Hynek Center for UFO Studies, 2457 West Peterson Avenue, Chicago, Illinois 60659. Jerry Clark
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 10 Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com> Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 12:02:25 EST Fwd Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 13:23:38 -0500 Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@connectmmic.net> >Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 00:06:54 -0500 >>Date: Sat, 06 Feb 1999 17:44:44 -0500 >>To: "UFO UpDates Subscribers":; >>From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >>Subject: UFO UpDate: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >>From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@connectmmic.net> >>Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >>Date: Sat, 06 Feb 1999 13:16:29 -0500 >Just wondering, >A couple of days ago, I wrote a post to Kevin Randle and Mark >Cashman. <snip> >Never got a peep. Sure, the quibble got going between the big >shots of ufology, from nay saying to congratulations. I was already familiar with the work of Loftus, et. al. and had read Hufford and Ofshe, as they discussed various and related phenomena. I have also read Lenore Terr (see Greg I was paying attention), as well as other reviews of human memory in the psychological journals. I wasn't aware that we were required to response to any of the posts whether we agreed or not. And, since I was already familiar with the cited (see Jerry, I can keep some of these straight) works, I saw no reason to respond. KRandle
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 10 Re: Pope On A Rope From: Andy Roberts <Brigantia@compuserve.com> Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 12:36:27 -0500 Fwd Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 14:24:29 -0500 Subject: Re: Pope On A Rope >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net> >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Pope On A Rope >Date: Mon, 08 Feb 99 16:22:13 PST >I'm glad that this little episode is keeping our British friends >amused. To me, however, it's one hell of a bore, much ado about >not much at all. Nick Pope is hardly the only apparently sane >human being who believes he has had an abduction experience, and >who can blame him for not wanting to broadcast his conviction? >I hope against hope that this one gets a rest soon. As usual Jerry gets some facts right but misses the point completely. The issue with Popey is not what imaginary experience he is claiming - to fantasise is his perogative - but that this 'experience' took place *before* he was involved with the MOD. He has, on several occasions, stated he had no interest in or knowledge of UFOs *prior* to working at the MOD. The whole point is about whether or not he is telling the truth or being consistent. If he has been neither in the saga of his 'abduction' then how are ufologists supposed to judge his pronouncements on official attitudes to and knowledge of the UFO phenomena? Of course if Jerry wants his 'British friends' not to bother with looking into the truth about someone who is a major influence on many ufologists then we might as well all hope that enquiry into any aspect of ufology or ufologists ' gets a rest soon.' Happy Trails Andy
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 10 The Gesundt Newsletter - All the News that's fit From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com> Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 12:47:49 EST Fwd Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 14:27:19 -0500 Subject: The Gesundt Newsletter - All the News that's fit The Gesundt Newsletter - "All the News that's fit to Tint" Copyright 1999, Gesundt's Fresh Spirits and UFO Stuff This is our premier edition of the Gesundt Newsletter, we call it the G.D. News. But first, a commentary on the Budd Hopkins UFO Conference. That our founder, Dr. Jaime Gesundt, was not invited to speak at this most prestigious event, is a catastrostroke of the first order, a snub to a great man unworthy of such maltreatment. "Gesundt's Freshly Made fully intends to supply Mr. Hopkins with all the Gripple Dripple he and his guests are able to consume, in spite of this insult to the integrity of Dr. Gesundt." Enough said! Cookie Cutter UFOs sighted over Gesundt Facilities Worldwide! Plant managers at numerous Gesundt wine generating plants throughout the world are being overflown by UFO's of new and interesting design. Square, round, cube and other oddly shaped craft hover and hang for hours on end, as if waiting for something. One of our more creative plant managers decided to offer the pilots a taste, assuming that was what they wanted. So he set up ten magnums of Gripple Dripple, Gripple Dripple Plus with Vitamin G and a dozen blow up dolls from our last promotion on the roof of his facility The occupants of the craft immediately sucked up the wine and attempted to impregnate the dolls. "We now understand why they are here," Mr. Bailey Gesundt (Sedona plant manager) was quoted as saying. In the Canal Street facility, Scotty Gesundt, the plant manager there, etched arrows into the New York Pavement, pointing to the Canal Street Freshly Made plant, with a large picture of a pregnant woman holding a gallon jug of Original Gripple in her hand. After each UFO sighting report, the wine was taken up into the craft, which moments later wobbled away in a zigzag flight pattern, all the while changing shape and color in a psychedelic maze reminiscent of the sixties. Dr. Gesundt plans Historic Meeting with Fromage! Our own New York City wunderkind, tired of hearing of the exploits of the "Upstart Cheese Person," as Dr. Gesundt refers to Mr. Fromage, is willing to concede at least the good intentions of Mr. Fromage. "On that basis, wine and cheese will work together in research and discovery. Together we will find the answers." Dr. Gesundt stated in a recent interview. Harry Silvercup, the bread entrepreneur, has also expressed an interest in making this a triumvirate of Wine, Bread and Cheese. America is the best! Film at eleven! Gesundt
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 10 Nick Pope and UK UFO Magazine From: Tim Matthews <matthews@zetnet.co.uk> Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 18:54:29 -0000 Fwd Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 14:36:49 -0500 Subject: Nick Pope and UK UFO Magazine Dear All, Graham Birdsall has told me that his organisation - Quest - didn't pay Nick Pope as much as =A31,000 for lecturing three years ago. He was only paid "a fraction of the amount". I am more than happy to accept what Graham tells me. It is interesting to note that this information came from several different people. Graham believes that I should apoligize to Pope - the "innocent party". This is not going to happen because as has been made perfectly clear in recent days Nick has not been 100% straight with us on a number of crucial points. I note also that Nick Redfern, Matthew Williams and James Easton, researchers most closely associated with Grahams' UFO Magazine' (and mentioned as special correspondents in the magazine itself), have been equally critical of Nick Pope's testimony - as recent postings to 'UpDates' make clear. When we are told the truth - and we deserve the truth - about the Florida tollbooth case, Nick's claims to have become interested in the UFO subject after he took the AS2a job, his comments about flying triangle sightings, about RAF Rudloe Manor and more besides then perhaps the sorry saga of Britain's 'Fox Mulder' can be laid to rest. Tim Matthews - Lancashire UFO Society.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 10 Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality From: Mark Cashman <mcashman@ix.netcom.com> Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 15:26:40 -0500 Fwd Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 14:43:50 -0500 Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@connectmmic.net> >Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 00:06:54 -0500 >A couple of days ago, I wrote a post to Kevin Randle and Mark >Cashman. >I presented evidence concerning the questionable reliability of >testimony from a witness submitted to a very high stress >situation and I applied the reasoning to the abduction >phenomena. >I offered the idea that abductologists and investigators may be >on the wrong track if they rely solely on witness testimony for >argumentation and understanding of the whole phenomena. >I suggested that, maybe, _other_ means should me considered. >I my view, the whole testimony concept should be seriously >addressed and new avenues explored. >Never got a peep. Sure, the quibble got going between the big >shots of ufology, from nay saying to congratulations. Serge - I don't know what you mean when you imply you were ignored. It certainly is no big news to me that trauma affects testimony. Haines wrote about it in connection with UFOs in the 1980s. I believe I have mentioned it several times over the last year. Others have also discussed it. However, as I and others have mentioned, the degree and quality of the effect remains debated within the medical community. I scanned your post, could think of no useful comment to make, and so I kept silent. Should measurements be performed? Sure. Didn't we have an extended discussion on the list a while ago about possible means for using a variety of physical evidence detection methods to determine if abductions are occurring? Is testimony insufficient for science? Yes and no. Are there problems with abduction testimony? Yes. I've posted on that fairly often and won't beat the mutilated horse again. Is there something else you want me to address? ------ Mark Cashman, creator of The Temporal Doorway at http://www.temporaldoorway.com - Original digital art, writing, and UFO research - UFO cases, analysis, classification systems, and more... http://www.temporaldoorway.com/ufo.htm ------
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 10 Re: What If? From: Kathleen Andersen <KAnder6444@aol.com> Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 16:38:02 EST Fwd Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 15:05:13 -0500 Subject: Re: What If? Today, I received an email about a "rally to uncover secrecy". Here are a couple of snippets: "We want to bring national attention to the fact that secrecy has gotten out of hand and needs to be not only curtailed, but also completely reassessed. In the past, a timid attempt at a rally to end UFO secrecy held in DC was foiled by low turnout. The 50th anniversary celebration at Roswell degenerated into a carnival, thanks to spoilers from the intelligence community who wants to preserve the zany aspect of the UFO community intact. It is after all the perfect cover for testing experimental aircraft. This is why we are asking you, in the alternative media community, who frequently address issues such as these, to promote, publicize and assist us in building momentum for this event, so that once and for all, those who have kept us in the dark can be made accountable for their motives. Remy Chevalier Rally To End Secrecy endsecrecy@hotmail.com --- Do many people ever wonder that perhaps we aren't told things for a reason? Do we ever wonder how life would change? Maybe if government had some of the answers about what is going on, they might not know all the answers or intentions of "aliens" if such a thing exists. I asked the question to someone well known in the UFO field about how he felt about government secrecy.He said "They should tell us. We have a right to know, whether its good or bad. It is my right". But how would our lives change...not just "us" here who read and study about all this UFO phenomenon all the time, but your parents, your kids, your neighbors, your boss. That guy at the gas station or that mine worker in South Africa? How would they react if the goverment came right out on the news tonight and said "oh yes they are here, we don't know if they are good or bad or what their intention is but they are here". If I was an average person wanting to find out more about UFOs and bought David Jacobs book "The Threat" I would first have a nervous breakdown, cry a lot, turn reckless, kick up my heels and say "to hell with it, I'm having fun, forgot all my responsibilities because there is no future". If I was to go out and buy Whitley Strieber's books, I might never stay in a cabin ever again in the woods, drive down any deserted road nor go to sleep at night without continual fear not only for my own life but that of any young woman or child. If I happen to pick up "The Prism of Lyra" by Lyssa Royal, then I would feel all peachy keen for I knew I was a loved galactic human being, protected by a benevolent group of aliens who were only here to protect us. If I was a male and picked up "Message From the Pleiades" by Billy Meier, I would thamk my lucky stars that these creatures resembling a playmate centerfold could come into my bedroom at night. If I was that man's wife, I would be definately planning something evil for that space vixen! If I was the good catholic that I was raised, I would be knocking on the door of my local church and telling the priest that his last sermon about collecting more money for the parish or how poor Rome is would be his last, for I would have no concern about organized religion. If I was an average person I might be very upset that they did not tell us sooner. I would be on the phone to the White House and ask how "you Mr. President -- that I elected are going to protect me the tax paying citizen from aliens --NOW?". Am I the only one that realizes that life as we know it might change if we knew the truth? Does anyone think ahead? Kathleen Andersen MUFON State Section Director Seattle
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 10 Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net> Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 16:34:29 -0600 (CST) Fwd Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 15:13:04 -0500 Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 20:11:21 -0500 <snip> >Dennis, I'm not quite sure what you're getting at here. As far >as I know, when social scientists study any phenomenon, they >absolutely need to know whether it has any obvious cause. Greg, Then I assume if sociologists were to undertake a comparative study of the behavior of adherents of Islam, Christianity, Judiaism, Hinduism and Shintoism, that their first order of business would be to determine whose god/gods is/are the real one(s)? Somehow, I don't think so. Nor is it a psychologists's job to tell his/her patients that they think they may make some real progress if they first give up this ridiculous notion of a superior being out there "somewhere." Again, sociologists don't study any phenomenon, they study social phenomena, that is, human behavior, regardless of its alleged underlying cause or lack thereof. Sure, cause would be an ultimate consideration at some point perhaps, but no sociologist would ever tackle religious behavior with an eye to proving that God does or doesn't exist. Just as no historian would tackle the issue of Manifest Destiny while losing sleep wondering if we really had one or not -- and how would we _know_? They would simply regard it as a social construct, which is to say the beginning of their study rather than the end or conclusion of it. Just as abductions can now be regarded as a social construct, regardless of whether or not Pleiadeans are presently plucking us off the street and out of our houses at night or not. Which is why I said that, if handed Budd's mailbag, they would be just as interested -- as sociologists -- in the false starts and "failures" as the supposed real thing. Ditto psychologists and psychiatrists, which is why I suspect Budd's friends in those disciplines -- with the notable exception of John Mack -- prefer to remain in the background and let Budd pronounce on the literal reality of the phenomenon. Of course everything changes when the proverbial spaceship lands on the White House lawn. In which case sociologists won't be the only ones turning to their colleagues and saying, "Well, I guess that explains that!" But until that happens, sociologists will behave rather like sociologists. And ufologists will apparently behave like ufologists, postulating an abduction scenario (both in terms of scope and numbers) increasingly at odds with the world we live in. Dennis
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 10 Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality From: Jeff King <Boroimhe@aol.com> Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 19:08:40 EST Fwd Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 15:21:35 -0500 Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net> >Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 17:54:18 -0600 (CST) >Fwd Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 04:49:19 -0500 >Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >>From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net> >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >>Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >>Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 17:10:20 -0500 >Are you absolutely certain >and confident in asserting that abductions have "no obvious >cultural origin"? If so, would you care to promote a falsifiable >theory as to why you think so? >Dennis First I'll apologize for picking up this thread so late in the game, but I've been suffering from hard drive imposed exile. Dennis again asks some excellent questions, but I'd like to throw in a couple of questions of my own. While I agree with Greg that it is difficult to develop a falsifiable hypothesis regarding the cultural influences on abduction narratives, this raises the question can Greg develop a way to falsify the hypothesis that people are being abducted by aliens? Also, several days ago, Greg mentioned to Kevin Randle that he'd need to see the central elements of alien abduction reports in old science fiction to buy the idea that such stories were the seeds that germinated into modern abduction claims. Fair enough, but first we have to ask, what are the central elements? Is one the hybrid program? --after all that's what David Jacobs tells us. But then why do the elements of the hybrid program not clearly appear in Bullard's Measure of a Mystery? Bullard himself noted that prior to Intruders "reports of babies, fetuses, nurseries and hybrid beings were few in number and vague at best." The question becomes even more difficult if we think about some of the classic cases, the Hills, Pascagoula, Walton, Betty Andreasson Luca and Linda Cortile. When you think of the varying descriptions of the beings, craft, capture methods, on board experiences and conversations with the aliens (if any), the only core elements are abduction by some beings who are seemingly extraterrestrial and perform some form of medical exam or procedure. Regards, Jeff P.S. Greg, stick to your BSO guns.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 10 Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality From: Leanne Martin <leanne_martin@hotmail.com> Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 16:38:19 PST Fwd Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 15:29:10 -0500 Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 19:19:26 -0500 >Ah. Well, first the drama wasn't so clearly labelled fiction. It >was presented as if it was news. It began as if it was a >broadcast of dance music. The music was interrupted by a news >bulletin -- a meteor has fallen. Successive news bulletins told >us about the Martians emerging from the meteor, shooting people >with their heat rays, and so on. Only at the end was the frame >of a news broadcast breached, and the show revealed as radio >drama. >Second, recent research (documented on the Project 1947 list) >seems to show that the broadcast didn't cause nearly the panic >most people believe. >Third, even if a certain amount of panic did arise, it ended the >day after the broadcast. That makes the whole affair not really >comparable to the abduction phenomenon, which has persisted for >more than 20 years. Yes, but the difference here is _immediacy_. The radio show was not in any way subliminal. It was there and in your face (so to speak) and its effects were immediate. Accordingly, when it was over the reality the next day was immediate. 'Abduction' claimants (for whatever % we're talking about) who seem to quote images from sci-fi will be doing so from subliminal implants from the genre. These would take much longer to percolate to the surface (if at all) and in so doing their effects would seem more like solidly established memories. >They see a verson of the old Elvis, though normally healthy and >slimmed down, since the mythology normally says that he faked >his death to escape from his unpleasant life. Sometimes he's >bearded as well. >Too bad nobody sees the young one. (Preferably in the black >leather suit he wore in his 1968 TV comeback, or driving the >pink Cadillac he bought when he was young and his first record >hit!) >><snip> >Well, I don't know about your down-under bloodsuckers, but the >overwhelming majority of the ones here don't really claim to be >vampires. They just enjoy acting the role. That makes them very >different from abductees, who claim experiences with something >outside ordinary reality. Agreed - though we did once have the infamous "Lesbian Vampire Murder" in Brisbane a few years back where a disturbed woman apparently thought she was (according to the press) and co-opted her lover into helping her kill a man and drink his blood . . . I'd stay away from Brisbane if Iwere you <g>. >Greg Sandow
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 10 Re: How UFOs Communicate From: Terry Blanton <commengr@bellsouth.net> Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 10:08:20 -0500 Fwd Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 15:33:21 -0500 Subject: Re: How UFOs Communicate Bill Beaty has started a new discussion list called Vortexc whose sole topic is the discussion of torsion fields. Much research has been performed in Russia and Japan which seems to indicate that a variable rotating mass creates a field which can interfere with gravity. Torsion fields are neither an electromagnetic nor a gravitational effect; but, a different effect caused by angular momentum. One experiment demonstrated FTL communications by modulation of the rotating mass. For a general discussion of torsion fields see: http://www.amasci.com/freenrg/tors/tors3.html This discussion is fairly easy to follow. For more detailed information follow the links from the next level up at: http://www.amasci.com/freenrg/tors/ Torsion fields might explain many paranormal phenomena including ESP and pyramid power. The pyramid shape seems to be able to focus and store torsion field energy. One respected New Energy researcher, JLN Labs, has developed a torsion field detector which can be seen at: http://www.geocities.com/ResearchTriangle/Facility/7014/html/tsd.htm This is one of the most exciting areas of research that I have come across in some time! Terry
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 10 Re: Robert Todd On MJ-12 From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net> Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 11:26:26 -0400 Fwd Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 15:38:03 -0500 Subject: Re: Robert Todd On MJ-12 >From: Robert Todd <Bohica449@aol.com> >Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 04:59:20 EST >To: updates@globalserve.net >Subject: Re: Robert Todd On MJ-12 <snip> >Generally, people will believe what they _want_ to believe. >People are free to research the subject and examine the facts >for themselves. I prefer that they not simply take my word for >it, and caution them that they shouldn't take Friedman's word >for anything either. The government isn't the only group of >people capable of lying and capable of manufacturing fake >documents. How do we know Bob Todd didn't fake the documents?. I put lots of references and related documents in my Report. Bob tells us his suspicions. I had no knwledge that any of the basic documents were frauds. I still have no such knowledge and neither does Bob. He has lots of suspicions as I did too. I satisfied mine. I did not fake any documents, I know nothing that would lead me to believe that Bill Moore or Jaime Shandera or anybody else faked any of these documents. and know plenty that tells me they didn't. Anybody who says I was or am involved in document fakery is a liar. I have demonstrated my objectivity in my professional research. Bob has not. The FUND seemed happy with my progress reports and my final report. If he has a problem with that, tough. He brought up the $16,000. not me.If there are facts put them on the table. There is no evidence of misconduct on my part for the Fund or anybody else., because there was no misconduct. I certainly cnsider false accusations misconduct.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 10 Re: Robert Todd On MJ-12 From: Ed Stewart <ufoindex@jps.net> Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 07:51:28 -0800 Fwd Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 15:52:30 -0500 Subject: Re: Robert Todd On MJ-12 >From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: Re: Robert Todd On MJ-12 >Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 09:22:41 -0400 >Perhaps if the list of >items not known to be true but turning out that way after >investigation as noted in TOP SECRET/MAJIC were read, it would >make this clear. I have already addressed the above irrelevancy _at_length_ on this mailing list in 1996 and reposted it again January 27th of this year. It is available in the archives at: http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates/1999/jan/m27-011.shtml In summary, the post above shows that Friedman's claim of "items not known to be true" is not only idle posturing, irrelevant to establishing any real linkage to MJ-12, but also intellectually dishonest since that information was already in the files of William Moore-Jaime Shandera-Stanton Friedman, some of it as early as 1980. The reference above provides source documentation that Friedman's idle posture above is devoid of any legitimacy. Check it out and check the source documentation referenced. The question posed to Stanton Friedman both in 1996 and above has yet to addressed and answered by Stanton Friedman: "Is there anything in the new alleged evidence that establishes multiple, independent, direct, link-by-link, verified chains of evidence to show that MJ-12 is real, or that establishes the genesis/provenance of the MJ-12 documents?" >For example, nobody, certainly not myself or >Moore or Shandera knew about Menzel's involvement with the CIA, >NSA, etc until after I visited Harvard after getting permission >from 3 different people to review Menzel's papers in l986 The above claim is bogus, but more important not relevant to MJ-12. No connection to MJ-12 _ever_ has been established in all of Friedman's alleged research, or anyone else's for that matter. The bogus part of the statement above was also shown in the reference posting given. Check it out. Stanton Friedman is on record knowing about Menzel's alleged connection to alleged MJ-12 member Vannevar Bush from the Proctor letter which he has previously admitted to having a copy in his files _prior_ to the 1984 receipt of the MJ-12 film. Also, the FBI was fullfilling FOIA requests on many personalities. Stanton Friedman's research partner William Moore advertised and sold these FBI releases through his publication FOCUS. It is known that Menzel's was available from the FBI because other researchers had also independently submitted FOIA requests. Menzel's involment with the CIA, NSA, etc., was contained in the FBI FOIA releases and availalble to anyone researching Menzel and securing a FOIA release on Menzel from the FBI. >Why? Have you met him? It was from Albuquerque. They had been in >touch with people in Albuquerque. I am told many reporters >receive plain brown envelopes. I was called and portions read to >me after the film was developed in 1985. It wasn't publicized by >the way until 1987..I was certainly dubious about Menzel. Why were you dubious? You are on record already having Menzel's connection to Bush in your files prior to this time? >It is all too easy for people to claim, fraud, fake, and other >techniques of research by proclamation rather than >investigation. Can I quote you on that as an "original" Stanton Friedman quote? >Some have suggested there is only one date format in use in >government documents. I published several different ones. Klass >claimed only Elite type not Pica. All he had was Elite. At the >Archives one finds _Pica_ etc ad nauseum. What does this have to do with MJ-12? <snip> FUFOR's funding and subsequent position by Richard Hall is addressed in a previous post. >Suspicions in the absence of knowledge shouldn't carry much >weight. Unlike many armchair theorists, I demonstratd a >willingness to seek witnesses, to visit Archives seeking truth >and some understanding of the documents of the time. My "Final >Report of Operation Majestic 12" was a Fund bestseller and >includes many corroborative documents and the list of reasons >for saying the documents are genuine. See the above postings refuting the relevance of Friedman's alleged "list of reasons", but I will repeat for emphasis the following never responded to question: "Is there anything in the new alleged evidence that establishes multiple, independent, direct, link-by-link, verified chains of evidence to show that MJ-12 is real, or that establishes the genesis/provenance of the MJ-12 documents?" In the 15 years since the MJ-12 papers were allegedly received, no such evidence has ever been presented in support of the alleged documents. Even more pertinent to this thread is that Stanton Friedman ignores the question which has been asked all the way back to at least 1987 when the Moore-Shandera-Friedman began the public promotion phase of the bogus MJ-12 papers. >If my son needed brain >surgery, I wouldn't take him to a foot doctor just because brain >surgeons are biased. Yes, I was biased for truth, for putting >things in my gray basket rather than pronouncing judgements >without investigation. You have been promoting the bogus MJ-12 papers as authentic ever since the public disclosure of them by the research team of Moore-Shandera-Friedman. Since you have alleged not to "know" anything about the MJ-papers before they were allegedly shown to you in 1985 by William Moore, that means you must have completed your investigation causing you to "authenticate" those documents by the 1987 press announcement! Wasn't that before you lobbied and accepted the subsequent research grant from the FUND? <snip> >Let me put it bluntly. >I have never ever faked a document. >Anybody who says I have or helped somebody else do so is a >liar. Really? The record for the last 12 years shows otherwise. From JUST CAUSE #13, 9/87, posted to this list and available in the archives in a series of seven messages beginning with: http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates/1999/feb/m07-023.shtml "Why did MSF alter the appearance of the MJ-12 documents in their first release of the Focus newsletter without explanation? \Whole sections were deleted, giving the appearance of government censorship, but actually was performed by MSF as they _later_ admitted. It smacked of a sensationalist technique to arouse interest." MSF is short hand for the research team of Moore-Shandera-Friedman. Ed Stewart ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Ed Stewart ufoindex@jps.net|So Man, who here seems principal alone, There Is Something |Perhaps acts second to some sphere unknown. Going On! ,>'?'<, |Touches some wheel, or verges to some goal, Salvador Freixedo ( O O ) |'Tis but a part we see, and not a whole.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 10 Re: Tribute To Skynet From: Dan Geib <geibdan@qtm.net> Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 12:11:40 -0800 Fwd Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 16:02:58 -0500 Subject: Re: Tribute To Skynet >Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 02:08:44 +1100 >To: <updates@globalserve.net> >From: Mike Farrell <mikefarr@midcoast.com.au> >Subject: Tribute To Skynet Actually there is another excellent video archive, it is at http://wkweb5.cableinet.co.uk/dledger/video.htm and it too is eceptional UFO Folklore! http://www.qtm.net/~geibdan/framemst.html Dan's Magic in Michigan
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 10 Re: Riddle of The Skies: Part 2 From: Tony Spurrier <TSpurrier@compuserve.com> Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 14:39:52 -0500 Fwd Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 16:11:20 -0500 Subject: Re: Riddle of The Skies: Part 2 >From: Ian Darlington <webmaster@interweb-design.co.uk> >To: <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: Riddle of The Skies: Part 2. >Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 14:52:54 -0000 >'Riddle of The Skies' >Produced by Union Skyline for Channel 4 >In the second of a three part series currently airing on UK >television, we were presented with eyewitness accounts from >various pilots, air traffic controllers (ATC) and the military. I understand next week on this program some quite dubious footage will be shown. It'll be interesting to see how that is aired. Tony
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 10 Re: Riddle of The Skies: Part 2 From: Jeremy Anderson <Jerry@uforesearch.freeserve.co.uk> Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 20:28:29 -0000 Fwd Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 16:11:59 -0500 Subject: Re: Riddle of The Skies: Part 2 >From: Ian Darlington <webmaster@interweb-design.co.uk> >To: <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: Riddle of The Skies: Part 2. >Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 14:52:54 -0000 Dear list, Very rarely does there come along a decent, unbiased documentary regarding the UFO question. Here, we have one that seems to have taken the time to re-investigate several cases from around the world. I8 months in the making, 'Riddle of the Skies' has probably breathed new life into the publics outdated perceptions of this subject, and has stirred many dormant ufologists into reactivation. A pity then, that the producers of the programme have not had the courage to show footage (from official CCTV cameras), of what could possibly be a large, slow moving, experimental/unknown aircraft slowly moving across the skies of South-Eastern UK. "Aha!" I hear you say, "it may be shown in the third and final part of the series". WRONG!! The producers, instead of showing fresh footage from August last year, decided at the last minute, not to show the two minute long video, and pressed for, wait for it, old footage that we've all seen a thousand times over! Come on.....I remember when production companies were falling over themselves for original stuff like this. The footage in question, shows a large triangular object on the skyline at 22.00 on the 17th August 1998. The film has been scrutinised by several experts in video and aircraft recognition. None have found evidence of fraud or fakery, and is labelled as 'unknown origin'. Funny, Union Pictures were thrilled when they saw the video and then dropped it like a ton of bricks when we expressed a view that it may be _our_ technology. Probably not sensational enough Programmes like this bring the subject into the public domain, but that is all. Why can't they work for us for a change? Answer is...they just don't have the courage to do so. Now I know how fellow researchers such as Tim Mathews feel when their views are rejected. People are just so blind. I believe that the ETH exists, but not _everything_ can be quite so exotic. Jerry Anderson UFOMEK
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 10 Re: London (UK) UFO Meeting From: John Hayes <jhayes@cableinet.co.uk> Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 20:26:46 +0000 Fwd Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 16:54:47 -0500 Subject: Re: London (UK) UFO Meeting I have been asked to post the following on behalf of London UFO Studies: 26th FEBRUARY 1999 London UFO Studies presents a MAXINE PEARSON Lecture on Remote Viewing & Mind Control. (As seen on BBC Television "The Big End") Venue: The United Reformed Church Hall, Upney Lane, Barking, Essex Speaker: Maxine Pearson Time: Doors open 7-30pm starts 8pm. Admission: Adults =A34.00, Children/OAPS =A32.00. Members =A32.00. Further details: Phone Roy Lake on 0181-270-9919 Regards, John Hayes jhayes@cableinet.co.uk webmaster@ufoinfo.com UFOINFO:- http://ufoinfo.com UFO Roundup:- http://ufoinfo.com/roundup/ Filer's Files:- http://ufoinfo.com/filer/ UFOICQ Australian UFO Reports and Experiences:- http://ufoinfo.com/ufoicq/
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 10 Looking for Old UFO Books? From: Sue Kovios <bradford@globalserve.net> Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 00:54:35 -0500 Fwd Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 16:56:41 -0500 Subject: Looking for Old UFO Books? Found a good website for finding old UFO and related books. http://www.why.net/home/gwc/books.htm
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 10 Re: Robert Todd On MJ-12 From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com> Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 07:26:37 -0500 Fwd Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 17:08:27 -0500 Subject: Re: Robert Todd On MJ-12 >From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: Re: Robert Todd On MJ-12 >Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 09:22:41 -0400 <snip> >Let me put it bluntly. >I have never ever faked a document. >Anybody who says I have or helped somebody else do so is a liar. >Stan Friedman I would like to add that IMHO anyone who casts allegations of fact, without the supporting proof to back it up, is saying more about themself than they realize. Friedman's research is well documented, and while it doesn't show conclusive proof regarding the validity of any MJ-12 documents, it shows that many arguments from those who are skeptical haven't been researched well. The re-release of the numerous MJ-12 documents, which have been in reseachers hands for several years, has merely ignited a debate that was already very tired. Some have been shown to be cut-and-paste jobs that took pieces of real documents and combined them with faked text, while the veracity of others remains unclear. Steve
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 10 Re: Y2K and UFOs From: Leanne Martin <leanne_martin@hotmail.com> Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 21:04:58 PST Fwd Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 17:12:35 -0500 Subject: Re: Y2K and UFOs >From: Tim D. Brigham <devilsad@ksinc.net> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: Y2K and UFOs >Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 00:05:35 -0600 G'day Tim (& List), >Y2K is a subject which I have seen discussed on UFO web pages, >in UFO discussion groups (not this one though, at least as far >as I have seen), email and print UFO related bulletins, etc. Not >until now did I really bother to ask why. The Y2K issue is one >that interests me, as it probably interests most people to some >degree or another, but why is it being more and more commonly >associated with UFOs, or is this just an incorrect perception on >my part? There is no direct association with UFOs. It is more likely, though, the incorrect perceptions of many self-deluded people that there is direct connection where none exist. You have correctly perceived that for some people there is a connection - usually with those who see Armageddon just around the corner. Actually, I saw Armageddon just around the corner but I thought Bruce Willis had done better movies. So some religious cults and fundamentalist types are full of all sorts of foreboding. Also, some paranoid conspiracy theorists , such as those of the millenium survivalist 'movement' who seem to have surfaced recently, believe that it is being used as smokescreen by 'the new world order' to disarm the U.S.of Alians and hand over the country to the U.N. Accordingly, when they see news items like the one you cite thwy get very nervous. **Note: in a post I placed last night I queried the Pentagons warped sense of humor when I pointed out the significance of the name Lt.Col. Kirk Krist. They could not have made some people any more nervous except by putting Lt.Col Jesus Krist in charge. >Why do publications which cover UFOs seem more likely >to cover Y2K than, say, a bird watching mailing list, a journal >on evolutionary biology or anything else? Because they are catering to the self-deluded common to both camps. If you are really a paranoid conspiratorialist you'd be convinced that the Y2K bug was invented _specifically_ to work like a political 'sunset clause' and planted in the system designs deliberately to give the feds a break-point. When this point occurs they then have the opportunity to step in at the pre-determined occasion and 'wipe the slate clean' of any one/thing/group/body/organization/List/URL/WWW that they feel was getting too 'troublesome'. Many in the UFO arena may feel that that is being planned because thy're getting 'too close to the truth'! Some of the UFO/Armageddonists may even see this as the time when the earth gets taken over fully by aliens. That goes against the grain because the only ones allowed to run the world are the U.S.Alians. >I do not see the >Clinton impeachment affair (no pun) mentioned in American UFO >publications or discussion groups, and that is a major news >event in US circles, so why Y2K? That's because there's enough self-abuse cluttering the field already. >I ask this with no disrespect >to the UFO Roundup crew (their e-zine is one of the best ways to >catch up on the happenings in the UFO field, IMO), I mean this >as a general question regarding what some people seem to feel is >some sort of relationship between the subjects (or else it >wouldnt be covered). >In what way does Y2K relate to UFOs? Is it some conspiritorial >aspect? hints of government quietly planning for social >instability (as some maintain they must do for 'when the reality >of UFOs is disclosed'? See above . . . Regards, Leanne ];-)
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 11 Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@connectmmic.net> Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 18:15:15 -0500 Fwd Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 06:04:01 -0500 Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality At 02:43 PM 2/10/99 -0500, you wrote: >From: Mark Cashman <mcashman@ix.netcom.com> >Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 15:26:40 -0500 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >>From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@connectmmic.net> >>Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >>Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 00:06:54 -0500 >Is testimony insufficient for science? Yes and no. Are there >problems with abduction testimony? Yes. I've posted on that >fairly often and won't beat the mutilated horse again. >Is there something else you want me to address? Mark, In: >From: Mark Cashman <mcashman@ix.netcom.com> >Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 13:54:40 -0500 >Fwd Date: Sat, 06 Feb 1999 00:05:00 -0500 >Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >>From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com> >>Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 09:48:26 EST >>To: updates@globalserve.net >>Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality You asserted: >Finally, we must be cautious, as always, in interpreting the >results of hypnosis, especially when hypnosis is used to recall >traumatic events. We don't know as much as we should about this >subject. Some researchers suggest that traumatic memories are >better than normal memories. Others suggest that PTSD can >distort traumatic memories. It is certainly possible that at >least some of those recalling encounters under hypnosis are >distorting or confabulating a less threatening experience to >defend their sanity against the real memories. This certainly >would represent an inlet for cultural phenomena to stand in >place of real events, without invalidating those events. In: >From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@connectmmic.net> >Date: Sat, 06 Feb 1999 13:16:29 -0500 >Fwd Date: Sat, 06 Feb 1999 17:44:44 -0500 >Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality I offered: >LOFTUS: One of the things that we know about memory for very >upsetting experiences, traumatic experiences, is that the memory >does not work like a videotape recorder. You don't just record >the event and play it back later the way a videotape player >would work. The process is much more complicated, and actually >what's happening is you're storing bits and pieces of the >experience. Later, when you try to tell somebody what happened, >you are in some sense reconstructing that experience, you're >piecing it together and essentially telling a story about your >experience. We are apparently talking about the same phenomena, except that you state that distortions happen under hypnotic recollection of an event. while actual evidence suggests that distortions happen during "normal" recollection of a stressful event. Your post implied that serious distortions of memory apply ONLY to the hypnotic state. This is not the case. I understand testimony under hypnosis is a mutilated horse you won't beat again, but this one looks like a foal (not a donkey). If you care to leap to: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/dna/ Judiciary systems are based on witness testimony. Modern DNA tests are shaking this seriously. BTW, these tests are only a couple of years old. Maybe I hadn't made myself clear in the first place, but I fail to understand how, in the knowing of the need-to-fit, one can still rely to the content of a victim's testimony to assert the validity of an abduction case. Which should bring us to the next step: providing the testimony is not originating from personality problems - I believe there are ways to establish this - and not hoaxed <sigh>, maybe someone should think of devising protocol to correlate strangeness, stress and reality of an experience. To summarize: if the witness ain't a fool and/or a liar or experiencing organic conditions that could alter their perception of reality, $10.00 US something pretty real happened. P.S. I've been on this List for almost 2 years now. Dead horses, dead cows and dead dogs have been discussed among/by dedicated ufologists. If a crippled horse were an excuse for not answering someone, this List would be dead by now.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 11 Re: 8/27/96 MJ-12 Document From: Bohica449@aol.com Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 22:09:17 EST Fwd Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 06:30:35 -0500 Subject: Re: 8/27/96 MJ-12 Document >From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: Re: 8/27/96 MJ-12 Document >Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 20:37:51 -0400 <snip> >>>>On page 138 of 'Crash at Corona', Friedman claims: >>>>"Both authors handled materials classified top secret >>>>and higher, Friedman when in the nuclear industry and >>>>Berliner when in the air force." >I have no idea how the sentence got there. No, as I have >repeatedly said I did NOT have a TS clearance.I have however >seen many many TS documents that have been declassified. Huh? You're kidding, right? You have no idea how that sentence got into your book? Did you read the galleys? Surely you can do better than that? >>Oh, so you mean you _DIDN'T_ handle "materials classified top >>secret and higher... when in the nuclear industry" as you >>claimed in your book? >I made no such claim. I repeat I have handled many formerly TOP >SECRET documents at the Archives Bob has never been to. The sentence in your book is tantamount to such a claim, but -- incredibly -- you further claim you don't know how that sentence wound up in your book. It's _your_ book, and _you_ should take responsibility for its contents. Or should we assume _everything_ you write is as accidental as the claim that appears in your book, and shrug it off as meaningless? By the way, I've handled many Top Secret documents, too. >Some of the documents originated in the office of Robert Cutler >and were found in the declassified files at LCMD. >>Again, with respect to TS control numbers, the documents he >>and his other "research team" members found at the Library of >>Congress, _years_ before the fakes showed up, most certainly >>are NOT relevant to whether or not there should have been a TS >>control number on the Cutler-Twining memo Moore/Shandera >>'found' in RG 341. >Of course they are . Some were sent from Cutler to Twining. The >documents prove that not all TS documents from Cutler to Twining >had TS control numbers. They might be relevant in terms of the White House's use of TS control numbers, but they tell us _nothing_ about whether or not there should be an _AIR FORCE_ TS control number on the Cutler-Twining memo found in RG 341. If indeed the memo was _not_ planted there, and if indeed the memo was a legitimate document legitimately retired by the Air Force, it most certainly _would_ have an Air Force TS control number on it. It does not; therefore, it was planted. But you already agree it was planted (see below), which itself explains the absence of a TS control number, yet you continue to apply idiotic reasoning by insisting the CT memos found at the Library of Congress somehow show why there is no TS control number on the CT memo found in RG 341. The _fact_ that the CT memo was planted in RG 341 at the Archives is an adequate explanation for the absence of a TS control number. >>If Moore or Shandera did not plant the Cutler-Twining memo in >>the Archives, it would have been there legitimately, and the Air >>Force _would_ have assigned a TS control number to it. >This is pure unadulterated hogwash. It isn't hogwash at all, your proclamation notwithstanding. You think somebody on one of the declassification teams planted the memo for Moore and Shandera to find, and I think Moore and/or Shandera planted the memo and pretended to "discover" it. If somebody on the declassification team didn't plant it, then it _had_ to have been planted by Moore and/or Shandera. That's a _fact_! Your proclamation aside, I have no reason to believe anybody on the declassification team planted the document so Moore and Shandera could "find" it. You've offered no credible evidence, much less proof. >As has been noted there were >a number of teams of people with high level security clearances >who had direct access to Box 189 (noted on one of the >postcards). So what? You have _zero_ evidence that any of them planted anything in the Archives for Moore and Shandera to find. The postcards could have been prepared after the fact (mailed before the fact, and altered after with additional writing being added at any point in time). >The CT memo certainly didn't belong in the box in >which it was found. Bob wants to believe that means Moore or >Shandera planted it there. I don't _want_ to believe anything. I believe what I believe because it appears reasonable to me, as opposed to the ludicrous, self-serving picture you paint. If we are to believe your fantasy, MJ-12 "insiders," who want the public to know the "truth" about Roswell, are so impressed with the research of Moore, Shandera, and Friedman, that they kept track of your inquiries at the Archives, knew you had shown an interest in the TS materials undergoing declassification review, mailed postcards to your "research team" members containing cryptic clues, then stole the CT memo from some as yet unidentified, high-security location, and planted the memo in Box 189 of Entry 267 of RG 341. Surely you _have_ to acknowledge that that's an awful lot to expect _anybody_ to swallow? >Others handled the box and had high >security clearances. I have a letter from the Archives >describing that handling So what? You haven't even proven that MJ-12 exists yet, much less shown that any of the people who had official access to the Air Force records were cleared for access to information classified at the also unproven "TOP SECRET / MAJIC" level, so that they could steal the CT memo from some high-security location so they could plant it in RG 341. You haven't even proven that your "research team" was in contact with MJ-12 "insiders." All we have are your proclamations. That's it! We have a "document" (the CT memo from RG 341) that was "found" by Bill Moore and/or Jaime Shandera, members of the "research team" that had spent countless hours trying to prove the Roswell incident involved an alien spaceship. Moreover, Moore and Shandera were the _first_ researchers to gain access to these files, following declassification reviews by Air Force _and_ National Archives personnel. Even more strange, neither the Air Force nor the National Archives personnel noticed the CT memo among the files they had just looked at, even though the "document" purports to be a National Security Council (NSC) document, which requires special handling during declassification, and even though the document was physically located _between_ file folders, and not _in_ a file folder, where one would normally find a document. Given the fact that you have yet to prove the existence of "MJ-12," I think the obvious conclusion is that Bill Moore and/or Jaime Shandera planted the document in the files, and then pretended to "discover" it. I think you're being just a tad dishonest if you don't acknowledge that this is the _obvious_ conclusion to be drawn from the facts. >"August 8,l988....Concerning the declassification review of the >records in Box 189 of Entry 267 of RG 341 where the Cutler >memorandum was found. Here are the facts as we know them: >RG 314...Entry 267... An Air Force Officer (major) reviewed box >189 of Entry 267, RG 341 sometime between September 24 and 28, >l984.[This was about 2 weeks after the death of the last >survining MJ-12 member Jerome Hunsaker] .Review by Records >Declassification Division. Entry 267 was reviewed between May 31 >and July 1, l985. Box 189 Speicifically: First review done on >June 20, l985; Second review completed on June 24, l985. Two >items withdrawn from box on June 24, l985...... It was first >served to researchers in July 1985." >Clearly persons with TS clearances had access to the box3 times >before Moore and Shandera were served the box. Again, so what? (See above.) >In addition we must note that since there were other TS memos >from Cutler's office to Twining that had no TS control number >that means there could have been ones in RG 341 without them. >Obviously the rules f that office apparently didn't require TOP >SECRET CONTROL numbers on all items. The _only_ reasonable explanation for the absence of an _AIR FORCE_ TS control number on the CT memo is that the memo was planted there. The fact -- and I _do_ accept it as fact -- that the White House didn't put TS control numbers on all their correspondence _IS_ irrelevant. Once such a document found its way into the Air Force's files, the _Air Force_ would have assigned a TS control number to it. The fact that the CT memo has no such number means the document was planted. I can't imagine why you keep insisting otherwise, except that you have a big problem admitting when you're wrong about anything. >>has no such control number, which clearly suggests that Moore or >>Shandera planted the document in the files, since even Friedman >>acknowledges that Moore and Shandera were the first researchers >>to examine the files following declassificaion reviews by both >Shandera and Mooore didn't do the declassification. People with >clearances did as noted above. Onemight well have planted it Except that you have failed to prove MJ-12 even existed, or that there really are MJ-12 "insiders" who want the "truth" about Roswell to come out, or that such "insiders" were in touch with your team members, and that they arranged for the CT memo to be planted in the Air Force's records for Moore-Shandera to find. To date, all you've provided are your proclamations, which you expect everybody to accept at face value. >This again is fallacious reasoning. Another Friedman proclamation. >They went when they did >because I had finally been told that final Entry 267 had been >classification reviewed. That review had started months before >and I was told about it by Ed Reese at the Archives. II kept in >touch with Jo Ann Williamson as to the progress being made. So what? >>Air Force _and_ National Archives personnel, reviews which >>failed to turn up the Cutler-Twining memo. >One of those reviewers could easily have planted the item there. >Why is that so difficult to understand.? It isn't difficult to understand, just difficult to swallow, given the fact that it amounts to little more than your self-serving attempts to direct attention away from the people who _most likely_ planted the document there. >>Even Friedman has acknowledged that the Cutler-Twining memo was >>planted in the Archives. But he contends the document was >>planted by somebody on the Air Force declassification team, >>whereas I contend the most likely suspects are Moore and >>Shandera. >It seems clear that the reviewers is much more likely to have >done the planting because he needed access to both the original >location of the memo and Box 189. This is incredible logic. It assumes that the CT memo is genuine, when there is ample reason to be at least suspicious of its authenticity. But not you, you proclaim it genuine, and that's good enough for you! Sorry, but it isn't good enough for me. >>Whether or not the documents the Moore-Shandera-Friedman >>"research team" found at the Library of Congress have TS control >>numbers has _nothing_ whatever to do with the absence of such a >>number on the Cutler-Twining memo, which Moore/Shandera claim >>was 'found' in RG 341 -- _not_ in the Library of Congress. >>Friedman is throwing up a smoke screen in a desperate attempt to >>make himself appear to be right, when in fact he couldn't be >>more wrong. He is clouding the issue with utter nonsense, which >>is a clear indication of deception on his part. >The memo was definitiely found in a box where, judging by the >subject matter of the other documents therein, it didn't belong. >Therefore it was planted there. Yeah, we agree it was planted there. That seems pretty obvious. We disagree on who did the planting. And I have nothing to gain by being right, and nothing to lose by being wrong. Face it, Stan, if FUFOR wanted the investigation of the MJ-12 "documents" to have _any_ credibility at all, they should have picked somebody with less at stake than you. >>Once again, it is little more than a desperate attempt on >>Friedman's part to hide his deception. Since he seems to be big >>on labeling people with "mottoes," his seems to be, 'If you >>can't dazzle 'em with brilliance, baffle 'em with bullshit.' >>He's trying his best to baffle readers with irrelevant bullshit, >>hoping they won't catch on to his deceptions. >I will admit that Bob author of the Cowflop is definitly an >expert at BS Oh, my! How incredibly clever of you! >>>The Interesting thing is that neither memo has a control number >>>on it. Furthermore, the Cutler Twining Memo (July 14, l954)is >>>from Robert Cutler to General Twining. It also like the other 2 >>>memos from the same source and in the same file has no control >>>number. The source is Robert Cutler at the White House NOT RG >>>341.Because some USAF HQ files are in RG 341 does NOT mean all >>>are. >>More attempts to baffle. His remarks are attempts to distract >>readers away from the real issues. >>>>Friedman's argument is irrelevant, and deliberately misleading. >A splendid example of a proclamation directly contradicted by >the evidence at hand. Stan, I don't know of _anybody_ in the UFO field who issues more proclamations than you do. And, as far as the "evidence at hand" goes, that "evidence" seems to be limited to _your_ proclamations, based on _your_ wild speculations. Time after time, you accuse others of all kinds of things, like "research by proclamation," propaganda, and at least a half dozen other pithy little sound bites you utter at every opportunity. But I don't know of _anybody_ who employs these tactics more than you. >The CT memo clearly didn't belong there. I repeat. There is no >question that the memo didn't belong in Box 189. It had to have >been planted there. Duh! That's _the_ reason -- the _only_ reason -- it doesn't have an _AIR FORCE_ TS control number on it. White House/NSC TS control numbers _are_ irrelevant. >More mind reading the box was handled. I have no idea what point you're trying to make here. If you're questioning that the National Archives also reviewed these records for declassification, then your fight is with them, because that's what Ed Reese told me. So there is no "mind reading" involved, unless there is some other point you are trying -- and failing -- to make. And if Archives personnel also reviewed these records, it would be pretty risky business for anybody on the Air Force declassification team to try to plant anything there. >And, >>>The telephone and the US mail do not provide the same exposure >>>to archival material >>And yet I know more about government records systems than >>Friedman can ever hope to know. Go figure. >Another baseless claim. Another Friedman proclamaton. >>>I strongly recommend that Bob visit archives. It is an >>>enlightening, sometimes time and money consuming experience. >>I strongly recommend that Nuclear Physicist Stan Friedman take >>two nuclear physics and call me in the morning, 'cause he's >>_really_ full of it! >I take it this ranting is an admission that indeed Bob has never >been to an archive Just like you to jump to conclusions. But, you've been wrong before -- _many_ times before. >You have my sympathy Bob. And you have mine. It's a shame you've reduced yourself to selling tall tales using fake documents. The only difference between your "sympathy" and mine is that _mine_ is genuine. Bob Todd
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 11 Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality From: Mendoza <DarkSecretPB@compuserve.com> Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 19:12:55 -0500 Fwd Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 06:41:06 -0500 Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality With the compliments of the Duke of Mendoza: >From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 22:02:15 -0500 Circling around the Schirmer case, Greg wrote: >One reason I'm not impressed by arguments for media influence is >that the core of the reported abduction experience isn't in any >science fiction I remember reading (and I read it voraciously >for many years). That is, you can find details here and there, >but the _entire_ picture -- shadowy aliens that come at night, >take people from their beds, whisk them up to UFOs, never tell >them why and frighten them by depriving them of all control, >perform medical examinations, and make women pregnant -- can't >be found in any science fiction narrative I've read or heard of. Your mum will be after you Greg Sandow when she 'ears you've bin tellin whoppers. Take a look at page 154 of "Alien Abductions" again, which gives a very brief synopsis of Frank Herbert's "The Heaven Makers" (1968). You will note that I don't argue that either that book, or the now-famous Buck Rogers cartoon displayed on the previous pages and first unleashed upon an astonished world by Martin Kottmeyer in "Entirely Unpredisposed" (Magonia 35, 1990) are a direct influence on abduction stories - and nor does Kottmeyer. We both argue that given a certain mix of ingredients, the story will *tend* to come out in a certain dramatic order. Kottmeyer re-labels the eight episodes identified by Ed Bullard in dramatic terms in elucidating the point. I'd argue, given world enough and time, that if abduction stories are re-creations (as indeed real memories are) from fixed points of reference, then you'd not particularly expect pure reproductions of SF tales, or whatever. There are plenty of other items to draw on. Abduction narratives are either exactly what they claim to be, or they are a genre of their own created from diverse sources. Dare I say, do you find the blues form exactly reproduced in any other, and earlier, culture or tradition? If the answer is no, do you then go on to argue that West African scales, English hymnody and sea chanties, the Anglo American ballad tradition including its pentatonics, European harmony (and the implied major scale), and sundry other "influences", do not contribute to the blues? Would you even argue that a dominant ninth in a blues melody has nothing like the same effect as it does in, say, lieder? I think not. Nonetheless I was taken aback by Herbert's book. If you can get hold of a copy, I'd be most interested to hear your thoughts. best wishes Pipistrelle D. Millstone Pomegranate, the Whole Pomegranate, and Nothing But The Pomegranate PS: I am working my way through about five days' worth of this thread in a somewhat haphazard fashion (and dealing with personal mail as well) and it is taking me some time to reach yours (Greg's) dealing with phantom pregnancies, Appelle on hypnosis &c, and some form of collaborative or comparative analysis. But I'll get there. O, Lordy, will I get there. :-)
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 11 Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality From: Peter Brookesmith Mendoza <DarkSecretPB@compuserve.com> Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 19:12:55 -0500 Fwd Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 06:48:14 -0500 Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality With the compliments of the Duke of Mendoza: >From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 22:02:15 -0500 Circling around the Schirmer case, Greg wrote: >One reason I'm not impressed by arguments for media influence is >that the core of the reported abduction experience isn't in any >science fiction I remember reading (and I read it voraciously >for many years). That is, you can find details here and there, >but the _entire_ picture -- shadowy aliens that come at night, >take people from their beds, whisk them up to UFOs, never tell >them why and frighten them by depriving them of all control, >perform medical examinations, and make women pregnant -- can't >be found in any science fiction narrative I've read or heard of. Your mum will be after you Greg Sandow when she 'ears you've bin tellin whoppers. Take a look at page 154 of "Alien Abductions" again, which gives a very brief synopsis of Frank Herbert's "The Heaven Makers" (1968). You will note that I don't argue that either that book, or the now-famous Buck Rogers cartoon displayed on the previous pages and first unleashed upon an astonished world by Martin Kottmeyer in "Entirely Unpredisposed" (Magonia 35, 1990) are a direct influence on abduction stories - and nor does Kottmeyer. We both argue that given a certain mix of ingredients, the story will *tend* to come out in a certain dramatic order. Kottmeyer re-labels the eight episodes identified by Ed Bullard in dramatic terms in elucidating the point. I'd argue, given world enough and time, that if abduction stories are re-creations (as indeed real memories are) from fixed points of reference, then you'd not particularly expect pure reproductions of SF tales, or whatever. There are plenty of other items to draw on. Abduction narratives are either exactly what they claim to be, or they are a genre of their own created from diverse sources. Dare I say, do you find the blues form exactly reproduced in any other, and earlier, culture or tradition? If the answer is no, do you then go on to argue that West African scales, English hymnody and sea chanties, the Anglo American ballad tradition including its pentatonics, European harmony (and the implied major scale), and sundry other "influences", do not contribute to the blues? Would you even argue that a dominant ninth in a blues melody has nothing like the same effect as it does in, say, lieder? I think not. Nonetheless I was taken aback by Herbert's book. If you can get hold of a copy, I'd be most interested to hear your thoughts. best wishes Pipistrelle D. Millstone Pomegranate, the Whole Pomegranate, and Nothing But The Pomegranate PS: I am working my way through about five days' worth of this thread in a somewhat haphazard fashion (and dealing with personal mail as well) and it is taking me some time to reach yours (Greg's) dealing with phantom pregnancies, Appelle on hypnosis &c, and some form of collaborative or comparative analysis. But I'll get there. O, Lordy, will I get there. :-)
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 11 Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality From: Peter Brookesmith Mendoza <DarkSecretPB@compuserve.com> Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 19:12:40 -0500 Fwd Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 06:49:21 -0500 Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality With the compliments of the Duke of Mendoza: >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net> >Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >Date: Tue, 09 Feb 99 10:47:44 PST Considering the possible influence of "Mars Needs Women" on the Schirmer "abduction", Jerome remarked: >I remain unconvinced, since you have yet to show us -- as you >would have to if your remarks are to go beyond the purely >speculative -- that Schirmer saw or even heard of the movie, >obscure even to somebody like me who in those days was a >serious SF buff (and who, moreover, has lived in the Midwest >all his life, including the year Mars Needs Women was showing >in that region). It's surely the very obscurity of the item that makes the connection plausible (I won't put it any stronger than that). To make the point from the other end of the kaleidoscope: a motif from a widely disseminated and well-known SF source would be, or should be, immediately recognizable and the case in which it occurred would probably not make it into the literature. The classic *known* instance of this happening is the 1988 "Colbys" case investigated by Andy Roberts, Jenny Randles &c. But if the borrowed details are obscure, the chances of them being picked up are slimmer. Incidentally I wrote "Schirmer 'abduction'" not as a scare-quote but because the geezer was invited aboard the UFO, not napped, and much of what allegedly followed is nearer contactee stories than later abduction ones. As I've said before, abduction claims are not as consistent as some would like them to be. It would be interesting to know if the psychological profiles of Schirmer that the Condon team ran are now available for inspection in some archive or other. Leo Sprinkle wasn't told the results of the tests, but they're surely pertinent to any objective assessment of the Schirmer story. >At least the pro-abduction people, whether >ultimately right or wrong, understand that there is something >out there in need of an explanation better than any we've heard >so far. By that criterion I am "pro-abduction". Hmmmmmm. Which just goes to show that those who preach the virtues of accommodating complexity sometimes slip into over-simplification. best wishes Phyllostome D. Muscovado Flying Crystal
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 11 Re: Robert Todd On MJ-12 From: Robert Todd <Bohica449@aol.com> Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 20:21:41 EST Fwd Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 06:54:10 -0500 Subject: Re: Robert Todd On MJ-12 >Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 07:26:37 -0500 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com> >Subject: Re: Robert Todd On MJ-12 >>From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net> >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >>Subject: Re: Robert Todd On MJ-12 >>Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 09:22:41 -0400 ><snip> >>Let me put it bluntly. >>I have never ever faked a document. >>Anybody who says I have or helped somebody else do so is a liar. >>Stan Friedman >I would like to add that IMHO anyone who casts allegations of >fact, without the supporting proof to back it up, is saying more >about themself than they realize. Gee, I guess that's directed at me. >Friedman's research is well >documented, and while it doesn't show conclusive proof regarding >the validity of any MJ-12 documents, it shows that many >arguments from those who are skeptical haven't been researched >well. Friedman's research basically is garbage, and I don't care how many archives he's been to. But apparently garbage is enough to impress Kaeser. >The re-release of the numerous MJ-12 documents, which have been >in reseachers hands for several years, has merely ignited a >debate that was already very tired. Some have been shown to be >cut-and-paste jobs that took pieces of real documents and >combined them with faked text, while the veracity of others >remains unclear. >Steve Common sense -- a quality distinctly lacking in the UFO field -- _should_ tell us the documents are fakes until proven otherwise. The manner in which each and every one of the documents has surfaced itself makes them suspect. As Ed Stewart has pointed out repeatedly (to no avail), there is no provenance for the documents whatsoever. That Friedman _supposedly_ believes they are genuine is hardly evidence of anything, other than Friedman's dishonesty or stupidity. Kaeser notes that some of the documents "have been shown to be cut-and-paste jobs that took pieces of real documents and combined them with faked text, while the veracity of others remains unclear." Unclear? Leaving aside the issues of where and how and through whom each of the documents surfaced, if one document is shown to be a cut-and-paste job, shouldn't _all_ of them be assumed to be cut-and-paste jobs or otherwise manufactured? After all, according to the "research team" of Moore, Shandera, and Friedman, they _all_ originated from the same source, namely, unnamed "MJ-12 insiders" who made sure the "research team" got the "truth" about Roswell by planting documents in the National Archives for Moore and Shandera to find. If the MJ-12 "documents" were candy, would you let your children eat them without knowing exactly where they came from? If you did let your children eat them, and one of your children died because one of the pieces of candy was poisoned, would you then turn around and say, "Well, that doesn't mean they're _all_ poison," and then let the rest of your kids finish them up? I think not -- I _pray_ not! Where is the common sense in Kaeser's position? There is none! Jeez, is it any wonder that, with the likes of Friedman and Kaeser, the UFO field has issued not a challenge, but an open invitation for every con man in the world to manufacture fake documents and "fool" the UFO field with them? Hell, it doesn't take much to fool you guys. Suspicious sources for documents don't raise your suspicions. Demonstrable fakes don't shake your faith in the remaining documents. I'm waiting for the first "MJ-12 document" to surface that was manufactured using finger paints. I'm sure Friedman can concoct some asinine rationalization for why we shouldn't dismiss it out of hand. And Steve Kaiser will be right there by his side telling everybody what a wonderful job Friedman has done. I thank Mr. Kaeser for reminding me of why I promised myself not to involve myself in debates like this again, a promise I foolishly broke. Between the lying "researchers" (such as Friedman) and the gullible fools (such as Kaeser), we have, essentially, a victimless crime, like prostitution. We have those who _want_ to be fooled, and those who are all too willing to do the fooling. Please, _please_, I beg of you all, forgive me for even attempting to refute the great work Friedman has done. You have my assurance it will not happen again, even if I have to shove a stick of dynamite into my CD ROM drive and blow this sucker up. With my deepest regrets, Robert Todd
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 11 Re: Research Query: Abductees - Any Blind From: Rebecca Keith <xiannekei@yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 18:20:22 -0800 (PST) Fwd Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 07:00:22 -0500 Subject: Re: Research Query: Abductees - Any Blind >From: Leanne Martin <leanne_martin@hotmail.com> >To: updates@globalserve.net >Subject: Research Query: Abductees - Any Blind Abductees? >Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 05:52:44 PST >G'day List, >There has been much discussion of late that has had to with what >a particular abductee (any abductee) may have reported seeing as >a characteristic, or set of characteristics, of their abducting >alien/s. Also, what tie-in there may have been between the >reported visual characteristics and what the abductee may have >been exposed to as visual stimuli prior to abduction, i.e. >science fiction beings. >Question: >Are there any reported cases of abductees having been blind, and >if so, what were their reported inpressions of the physical >nature, as well as other characteristics, of their alien >abductors? I'd like to add to the questioning, if I may. Some abductees need to wear glasses to see. Some abductees are abducted at night while in bed. Since most people do not wear glasses to bed, I wonder what abductees who wear glasses to see clearly report about their visual experiences? Or do they put on their glasses before being taken away? Rebecca
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 11 Re: Research Query: Abductees - Any Blind From: Sue Kovios <bradford@globalserve.net> Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 21:03:13 -0500 Fwd Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 07:08:49 -0500 Subject: Re: Research Query: Abductees - Any Blind >From: Leanne Martin <leanne_martin@hotmail.com> >To: updates@globalserve.net >Subject: Research Query: Abductees - Any Blind Abductees? >Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 05:52:44 PST >Question: >Are there any reported cases of abductees having been blind, and >if so, what were their reported inpressions of the physical >nature, as well as other characteristics, of their alien >abductors? >Regards, >Leanne ];-) That's one question I asked Signor Velez quite awhile ago, along with deaf eyewitnesses. To his knowledge he could not recall coming across anything of this nature nor did he remember anything in Budd's records. The reason I asked was because the Canadian Institute for the Blind has a wonderful location on a lake two hours north of Toronto, not far from the site of a famous Canadian case in Bracebridge, Ontario reported by Robert Suffern in 1975. Every time I drive by on my way up to my property in Parry Sound and on the way home I wonder if it would be beneficial to stop and ask someone there about this. MUFON Ontario did however have a deaf woman report a sighting in Toronto and published in their Canadian Ufologist. Errol, publisher, may still have that file. Sue Kovios
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 11 Sighting, Toronto - February 3rd 1999 From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 07:29:34 -0500 Fwd Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 07:29:34 -0500 Subject: Sighting, Toronto - February 3rd 1999 Seen at 10:15 am for 35 seconds Garfield Bowser, a professional engineer, reported to Larry Fenwick of the Canadian UFO Research Network that he saw a wingless, noiseless, three-hundred foot long, 50 foot high object with what he describes as a "nubin" on top. It was over St. Clair Avenue West, a little beyond Casa Loma. This was a daylight sighting, seen from St. George and Bloor Street. He estimates that the object was moving at about 400 miles per hour. The witness says it was very silvery, with pointy-rounded ends and a black horizontal band around it, against a very clear, blue sky. Pearson International Airport's Enforcement Inspector was asked about flights in the area of the sighting and said that there were no aircraft in that airspace at the time. Mr Bowser, a member of both CUFORN and MUFON says that having been in the aircraft industry for 5 years and having an eye and an ear for engines, this object is unlike any craft he'd observed before. ----- Mr Bowser's original e-mail [via his son] below: ----- Sighting, Toronto - February 3rd 1999 Seen at 10:15 am for 35 seconds Moving at 400 mph to due East altitude 10,000 feet descending at 8 degress from horizontal 2-1/2 miles to the North Wingless noiseless 300 feet long 50 feet high including the 10 foot nubbin on top Pointy-rounded at both ends No tail fins Very, very silver silver in the morning sun clear blue sky no other objects in the area elevation 15 degrees from horizontal To the north at the corner of Bloor St. and St. George Seen due North - probably moving over St. Clair heading to Avenue Road not the normal area for the usual human aircraft a thin black line 150 feet long 20 feet up from the bottom appeared as a very flat oval or elipse with a nubbin on top in the centre. traversed an angle of 25 degrees in 30 seconds about 10 people around walking north, did not appear to take notice of this aerial object which I could not identify. Having been in the aircraft industry for 5 years and having an eye and an ear for engines, this object is unlike any craft I have observed heretofore. 0N THIS DAY FEBRUARY 3rd 1999. Garfield Bowser xxx-xxxx.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 11 Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality From: Leanne Martin <leanne_martin@hotmail.com> Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 18:46:57 PST Fwd Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 07:43:07 -0500 Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net> >Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >Date: Tue, 09 Feb 99 10:22:51 PST >Boy, I'd sure require "better proof" than this. The Orson >Welles War of the Worlds broadcast was a unique occurrence, and >its application to UFO matters is far from clear. What evidence >is there that Mars Needs Women -- obscure even by the standards >of ephemeral low-budget SF flicks -- generated any kind of >hysteria whatever? This is no argument at all, and all too >typical of the looseness (to put it charitably) of speculations >that seek to tie abduction phenomena to specific cultural >stimuli. Not, of course, that the hypothesis is inherently >observed; it's just that nobody so far has succeeded in >demonstrating it except by ex cathedra pronouncement and >indifference to the documenting of causal links. >Jerry Clark Jerry, See my point in a post earlier (last night) about the 'immediacy' factor to do with the Orson Welles broadcast. Its effect on whatever number of people who panicked was and they passed on the panic to others. Just as immediately, when the panic was proven to over fiction it subsided. Chalk and cheese mate. Fictions such "Mars Needs Women" and "invaders From Mars", etc., would be working at a much deeper level (I'd say a little to the left of the part of the brain that thinks the heaven and hell fictions are stored <VBG>). Regards, Leanne.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 11 Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net> Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 21:29:13 -0500 Fwd Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 07:47:59 -0500 Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@connectmmic.net> >Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 00:06:54 -0500 >A couple of days ago, I wrote a post to Kevin Randle and Mark >Cashman. >I presented evidence concerning the questionable reliability of >testimony from a witness submitted to a very high stress >situation and I applied the reasoning to the abduction >phenomena. >The pertinence of the matter in the study of abductions cannot >be contested. It is very unconfortable for any investigator. <snip> >I my view, the whole testimony concept should be seriously >addressed and new avenues explored. >Never got a peep. Sure, the quibble got going between the big >shots of ufology, from nay saying to congratulations. >Can someone explain me the rules of the new game in town? Serge, This isn't all that new a point, in my view. It's also one dealt with every day by people outside ufology -- by, for instance, cops who have to question crime victims, or investigators who need to determine what happened in a serious traffic accident, or a plane crash . Obviously, witness testimony needs to be carefully evaluated, and corroborated. Obviously, abduction research would be much further along if there was (just for example) physical evidence of abductions. But it's not unreasonable for abduction researchers to begin with personal testimony. Without that testimony, we wouldn't even know there's a phenomenon. Abductees seemed to corroborate each other by telling very similar stories, which was much more notable 20 years ago, when the standard abduction story hadn't circulated very much, than it is now. Sometimes, I think, we get a little carried away by data we bring in from outside ufology. We might put too much weight on it. (For more on this, see my post on trauma.) You don't, for instance, find people saying police shouldn't question crime victims, just because stress might make their testimony unreliable. The police, we assume, know how to take that into account. At the very least, we should ask whether abduction investigators do, rather than questioning the testimony entirely. Greg Sandow
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 11 Re: Riddle of The Skies: Part 2 From: Jeremy Anderson <Jerry@uforesearch.freeserve.co.uk> Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 03:05:10 -0000 Fwd Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 07:53:53 -0500 Subject: Re: Riddle of The Skies: Part 2 >Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 14:39:52 -0500 >From: Tony Spurrier <TSpurrier@compuserve.com> >Subject: UFO UpDate: Riddle of The Skies: Part 2. >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >>From: Ian Darlington <webmaster@interweb-design.co.uk> >>To: <updates@globalserve.net> >>Subject: Riddle of The Skies: Part 2. >>Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 14:52:54 -0000 >>'Riddle of The Skies' >>Produced by Union Skyline for Channel 4 >>In the second of a three part series currently airing on UK >>television, we were presented with eyewitness accounts from >>various pilots, air traffic controllers (ATC) and the military. >I understand next week on this program some quite dubious >footage will be shown. It'll be interesting to see how that is >aired. Tony, Is the footage you refer to, taken over East Anglia, UK? If so, it is from a substantial collection of footage by David Spoor. The footage itself is quite remarkable and should be taken as is. However, Mr. Spoor was misled into believing that some of the night time footage he captured, would be better recieved if there were some foreground from a daylight sequence of the same location, thereby giving the viewer some kind of reference in relation to the size and distance of the craft. Unfortunately, this 'addition' to the footage was not declared, and someone immediately rushed forward with the suggestion that this particular piece of film was hoaxed, therefore any footage from Mr. Spoor should be treated with caution. Caution, as we are all too aware, is something that must be considered. However, Mr. Spoor was in the company of another witness on many occassions when objects/craft were captured on video tape. I know the other witness (Peter Wrigglesworth), personally, and have seen many hours of footage he has taken in and around the very same locations frequented by David Spoor. Please, don't dismiss the footage out of hand. I believe it holds very important information that we should not, as investigators, ignore. Jerry Anderson UFOMEK
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 11 B-CAUS We Worry... From: Roger R. Prokic <rprokic@earthlink.net> Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 20:33 Fwd Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 08:11:19 -0500 Subject: B-CAUS We Worry... [The headers were incomplete - below is more insight into the increasing drift of Peter Gersten --ebk] UFOLAWYER1@aol.com wrote: Subject: [CAUS updates] - Website Wednesday...Channeled Information Dear CAUS Members: At one time, I completely discounted the value of channeled information, believing that the information was no more reliable than that coming from an Ouija board. Nowadays I have more of an open mind, since I believe that a lot of what I write and say on behalf of the CAUS comes from a 'higher' source. And I have no doubt that the story, The Ultimate Secret, that I wrote two years ago, was mostly channeled. So with this said, on this Wednesday, CAUS shares with you five websites presenting, at least in part, channeled information. 1) ZETA TALK ZetaTalk leads you through the vast amount of information being relayed by the Zetas in answer to questions posed to their emissary, Nancy. The ZetaTalk answers cover such subjects as portents of a Pole Shift and how this relates to the coming millennium Transformation the world is about to undergo; the self-centered or service-minded spiritual Orientation of humans as well as aliens from other worlds and how inadvertently giving the Call to aliens can put you in touch with one group or the other. Go to: http://zetatalk.com/ 2) VIBRANI'S ONE SOURCE Welcome to Vibrani's One Source, the Keys of Ur. Vibrani's focus is personal transformation through open knowledge for all, communication, self- empowerment, compassion, integration, responsibility and nurturing life, while always respecting autonomy. We herein explore possible applications for universal issues and ways in which we can bring metaphysical and spiritual concepts into positive, healthy, practical usage, while honoring diversity and the powerful, multidimensional, multifaceted, immortal, divine beings we truly are. Go to: http://www.vibrani.com/ 3) CELESTIAL HOME Welcome, the great gamma burst detected on Jan. 23, 1999 is the first heavenly sign? Also SOHO went off line on January 21, 1999. Then Galleo probe around Jupiter, went off line Feb. 1.1999. Could this be just coincidence? Just as Marduk said. This is the Channeling of the Nibiru. Visit and enjoy the poems and links and visit our friends. See the solar disk, and city craft poems! Why have poets written poems about earth life? Enter the artificial command environment! Go to: http://home.earthlink.net/%7Edisks/index.htm 4) CHANNELED TEACHINGS FROM A PLEIADIAN THETA MASTER Go to: http://www.angelfire.com/mt/bluestaralso/ 5) THE STAR-BORNE HOMEPAGE The Master Numbers 11:11 are appearing to millions around the planet. What does it mean? Go to: http://www.nvisible.com/1111Doorway.html So do you resonate with any of the above information? Is channeled information merely a projection of the channeler? Is the information filtered through the channeler and thus only as reliable as the channeler his/herself? Or is everything we say channeled in one way or another? Its amazing how little we really know about our own 3D reality...now isn't it? And you know what everyone says about Sedona, Arizona, the magical and mystical place of my residence...it has over one hundred channels and no TV station! Have a whimsical Wednesday and of CAUS...watch the skies! Peter A. Gersten Director Roger R. Prokic Principal Systems Engineer Aerospace Systems Division Ball Aerospace & Technologies Corp. Boulder, Colorado USA -=[sent from a Palm III & Multimail Pro v2.2.1]=-
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 11 Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net> Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 22:08:19 -0500 Fwd Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 08:17:42 -0500 Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 16:34:29 -0600 (CST) >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net> >Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >Then I assume if sociologists were to undertake a comparative >study of the behavior of adherents of Islam, Christianity, >Judiaism, Hinduism and Shintoism, that their first order of >business would be to determine whose god/gods is/are the real >one(s)? Somehow, I don't think so. Nor is it a psychologists's >job to tell his/her patients that they think they may make some >real progress if they first give up this ridiculous notion of a >superior being out there "somewhere." Normally we don't publicly challenge each others' religion. That's considered bad manners, and even offensive. So it's no wonder that sociologists and pyschologists don't consider the truth of religions when they study the behavior of their adherents. It's fun to speculate on what psychologists or sociologists might do, but here's a fact. Nearly every psychologist I've read who writes about the abduction phenomenon either carefully states that he or she doesn't think abductions are real, or else makes the same position clear with scorn or irony. Those who take care to say abductions aren't real also tend to explain why they need to say that. The reason is the obvious one -- their interpretations would be very different if they thought abductions were real. In fact, they wouldn't be looking for psychological interpretations at all. >Again, sociologists don't study any phenomenon, they study >social phenomena, that is, human behavior, regardless of its >alleged underlying cause or lack thereof. Sure, cause would be >an ultimate consideration at some point perhaps, but no >sociologist would ever tackle religious behavior with an eye to >proving that God does or doesn't exist. Just as no historian >would tackle the issue of Manifest Destiny while losing sleep >wondering if we really had one or not -- and how would we >_know_? They would simply regard it as a social construct, which >is to say the beginning of their study rather than the end or >conclusion of it. Straw man. Suppose a sociologist tackled a more down to earth issue -- why right-wingers hate Clinton so much, why they even accuse him of murder and drug dealing. Are you saying it wouldn't matter whether Clinton has actually done these things? Or, more specifically, that a sociologist who became convinced the accusations were true wouldn't start looking at those who made them rather differenty? >Just as abductions can now be regarded as a social construct, >regardless of whether or not Pleiadeans are presently plucking >us off the street and out of our houses at night or not. So? >Which is why I said that, if handed Budd's mailbag, they would >be just as interested -- as sociologists -- in the false starts >and "failures" as the supposed real thing. Ditto psychologists >and psychiatrists, which is why I suspect Budd's friends in >those disciplines -- with the notable exception of John Mack -- >prefer to remain in the background and let Budd pronounce on the >literal reality of the phenomenon. Ah, speculation. I've spoken to five psychologists who've been close to Budd, four of them at length. Four are clinicians, two of them psychoanalysts. I'm not sure how to characterize the fifth; he's best known for his books on psychological aspects of distressing historical events. I have ongoing relationships with two of these peole. Two of these people got involved in the "Linda" case, when Budd asked them to evaluate Linda's reactions to one aspect of it. Neither believes abductions are real, though one is more strongly convinced of that view than the other. Neither makes public pronouncements because they have no need to get involved in the issue. On the other hand, neither minded being quoted about the case in "Witnessed," and both were happy to talk to me on the record when I wrote about the case for IUR. (Both also have the greatest respect for Budd and his methodology in his abduction work, even if they don't agree with his conclusions.) The third of these psychologists serves on Budd's advisory committee, and believes abductions are real. I don't know if he's ever made a public statement to that effect, but I know he's trying to get his colleagues to come to the April abduction conference. The fourth is a long-time close friend of Budd's. I met him when Budd took me to a party at his home. We didn't speak about abductions, but according to Budd, this man won't comment on them publicly because he's involved in political and humanitarian causes, and doesn't want to compromise his position. I can't verify that, but it's certainly plausible. The fifth of these psychologists is an abductee. I do wish people wouldn't offer speculations as if they were solid arguments. Greg Sandow
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 11 Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net> Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 22:21:51 -0500 Fwd Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 08:20:44 -0500 Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >From: Jeff King <Boroimhe@aol.com> >Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 19:08:40 EST >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >Dennis again asks some excellent questions, but I'd like to >throw in a couple of questions of my own. While I agree with >Greg that it is difficult to develop a falsifiable hypothesis >regarding the cultural influences on abduction narratives, this >raises the question can Greg develop a way to falsify the >hypothesis that people are being abducted by aliens? Good question, Jeff. It's one I'd like to see lots of people on both sides of the question try to answer. I'm not sure, by the way, that I'm the one best qualified to give a useful response. Just as I think that social scientists ought to be involved in debates about media influence, I think we need physical scientists for this one. I'd also note that -- as far as I know -- in serious scientific work, it wouldn't be easy to falsify any hypothesis as big as this one. Take the Big Bang theory. I believe it rests on many smaller hypotheses, which would be easier to confirm or falsify than the Big Bang theory itself. Still, I'll take a shot. If a reasonably large number of abductees were constantly monitored by electronic and other instruments (I'm not going to try to specify what those instruments should be; it's not my field), and nothing showed up, I'd be much less inclined to believe that abductions are real. >Also, several days ago, Greg mentioned to Kevin Randle that he'd >need to see the central elements of alien abduction reports in >old science fiction to buy the idea that such stories were the >seeds that germinated into modern abduction claims. Fair enough, >but first we have to ask, what are the central elements? Is one >the hybrid program? --after all that's what David Jacobs tells >us. But then why do the elements of the hybrid program not >clearly appear in Bullard's Measure of a Mystery? Bullard >himself noted that prior to Intruders "reports of babies, >fetuses, nurseries and hybrid beings were few in number and >vague at best." The question becomes even more difficult if we >think about some of the classic cases, the Hills, Pascagoula, >Walton, Betty Andreasson Luca and Linda Cortile. When you think >of the varying descriptions of the beings, craft, capture >methods, on board experiences and conversations with the aliens >(if any), the only core elements are abduction by some beings >who are seemingly extraterrestrial and perform some form of >medical exam or procedure. Another good question. In an attempt to provide some answer slightly more objective than my own opinions, I asked a group of abductees to give me their views on what the central core of the phenomenon is to them. I'll shortly report what they answered. I gave my own answer here earlier. I don't remember exactly what I wrote, but I cited a number of elements. I was trying to remember what struck me first about the abduction phenomenon, when I'd only read books about it and wasn't involved in these discussions. My list included: beings that come at night and take people from their beds, make the people helpless (utter loss of control was at or near the top of the list, when I compiled the responses from abductees), never explain what their purpose is, and perform medical procedures. I'm trying to describe the core of the experience, not some analytical core of the phenomenon. Obviously, exactly what this core would be is a matter of opinion. Greg Sandow
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 11 Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net> Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 22:38:29 -0500 Fwd Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 09:20:16 -0500 Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 17:54:18 -0600 (CST) >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net> >Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >>I don't know much about Chupacabras, but I'm not impressed by >>arguments for the reality of crop circles or mutilations. >>Clearly (in my view) there's a large element of fantasy in both >>areas -- people are quick to believe in the improbable, without >>real evidence. >And I suppose none of us should suggest the same about abductions? Gosh, I'd love to see a suggestion like that! It would be a first, wouldn't it? <laughing very hard> >>Still, I think these aren't the equivalents to the abduction >>phenomenon that I wondered if anyone could find. Both crop >>circles and mutilations start with something tangible -- >>bashed-down circles of grain, and dead animals. The circles may >>have been created by hoaxers, and the animals may have died of >>natural causes, but they were there, so the fantasy started from >>a real stimulus. ><snip> >>Further, neither of these preoccupations has the psychological >>force that abduction belief has. I'm not saying that you can't >>find a crop circle or mutilation fanatic here and there, but >>you're not (as far as I know) going to find a large number of >>people suffering emotional earthquakes over these things, as you >>do with abductions. (Nor will you find that with people into >>bigfoot, or the Loch Ness monster.) >Well, now you're raising the bar. Oiginally you asked for >examples of media influence on society and culture. I cited crop >circles, animal mutilations, and Chupacabras as possible >examples. Now you say these don't have the psychological force >(or emotionality) of abductions. But I think if you were to >delve into their respective mailbags, you would find that they >do indeed, ditto the Elvis mailbag. I thought I set the bar pretty high to begin with, and I don't think I raised it in my response to you. The Elvis mailbag didn't have one-tenth the emotional force of the abduction letters -- for instance, I didn't see people begging the editors of the Weekly World News, in terms of the deepest distress, to help them understand whether or not they'd really seen Elvis. The Elvis letters were quite calm in comparison to the abduction mailbag, and this, I think, would be verifiable. Just get a team of psychologists to rate both from one to ten on a scale of distress. I'll believe crop circles have the emotional force of abductions when you show me a support group for people who've seen one. >>You do find emotional explosions about alleged satanic cults and >>visions of the Virgin Mary, but these have obvious roots in >>established religion. >Maybe I should bring up fictitious memories of childhood sexual >abuse at this point? They have obvious roots in the well-known existence of real sexual abuse. >>Maybe somewhere in the new age arena we might find something >>with no obvious cultural origin that holds people in as strong >>an emotional grip as abductions do. Belief in angels? >>Channeling? Alternative medicine? I'm not yet convinced -- I >>don't think the emotional force with these things is nearly as >>strong -- but maybe this is where we should look. >You may have to reformulate that first sentence for us. Or for >me, at least. What were the Salem witch trials all about, for >God's sakes, if not emotional force? There was a long history of hatred and fear of witches, dating back to medieval Europe. >Are you absolutely certain >and confident in asserting that abductions have "no obvious >cultural origin"? If so, would you care to promote a falsifiable >theory as to why you think so? You can't have falsifiable theories about things like that, any more than you can have falsifiable theories about the origins of the Vietnam war. These are all matters of interpretation -- literary criticism, if you like -- whether I do it, or anybody else does. Doesn't mean the interpretations don't have some value, or that some don't make more sense than others. But they're not much like scientific hypotheses. Social scientists can do better than we can, though, because they have peer review and a much larger body of knowledge, and may well have defined their terms far more precisely than we have. It's time for them to weigh into this debate. Without their help, I can't really say what even my own opinions are worth. Greg Sandow
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 11 Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality From: "Greg Sandow" <gsandow@prodigy.net> Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 22:24:36 -0500 Fwd Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 10:01:43 -0500 Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >From: Leanne Martin <leanne_martin@hotmail.com> >To: updates@globalserve.net >Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 16:38:19 PST >>Third, even if a certain amount of panic did arise, it ended the >>day after the broadcast. That makes the whole affair not really >>comparable to the abduction phenomenon, which has persisted for >>more than 20 years. >Yes, but the difference here is _immediacy_. The radio show was >not in any way subliminal. It was there and in your face (so to >speak) and its effects were immediate. Accordingly, when it was >over the reality the next day was immediate. >'Abduction' claimants (for whatever % we're talking about) who >seem to quote images from sci-fi will be doing so from >subliminal implants from the genre. These would take much longer >to percolate to the surface (if at all) and in so doing their >effects would seem more like solidly established memories. Is this your opinion, or a theory with solid support from psychologists? >>Well, I don't know about your down-under bloodsuckers, but the >>overwhelming majority of the ones here don't really claim to be >>vampires. They just enjoy acting the role. That makes them very >>different from abductees, who claim experiences with something >>outside ordinary reality. >Agreed - though we did once have the infamous "Lesbian Vampire >Murder" in Brisbane a few years back where a disturbed woman >apparently thought she was (according to the press) and co-opted >her lover into helping her kill a man and drink his blood . . . >I'd stay away from Brisbane if Iwere you <g>. Nah. I'm buying my plane ticket there right away. I love women who go to the edge....... Greg Sandow
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 11 Re: What If? From: Gary Alevy <galevy@pipeline.com> Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 02:03:40 -0500 Fwd Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 10:10:54 -0500 Subject: Re: What If? [List Only] >From: Kathleen Andersen <KAnder6444@aol.com> >Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 16:38:02 EST >To: updates@globalserve.net >Subject: Re: What If? >Today, I received an email about a "rally to uncover secrecy". >snippets snipped out < >--- >Do many people ever wonder that perhaps we aren't told things >for a reason? Do we ever wonder how life would change? Maybe if >government had some of the answers about what is going on, they >might not know all the answers or intentions of "aliens" if >such a thing exists. >I asked the question to someone well known in the UFO field >about how he felt about government secrecy.He said "They should >tell us. We have a right to know, whether its good or bad. It >is my right". >But how would our lives change...not just "us" here who read and >study about all this UFO phenomenon all the time, but your >parents, your kids, your neighbors, your boss. That guy at the >gas station or that mine worker in South Africa? How would they >react if the goverment came right out on the news tonight and >said "oh yes they are here, we don't know if they are good or >bad or what their intention is but they are here". <examples snipped> >Am I the only one that realizes that life as we know it might >change if we knew the truth? Does anyone think ahead? >Kathleen Andersen >MUFON State Section Director >Seattle Hello Kathleen, I suspect that the reason for the popularity of anti-secrecy drives in the UFO field is indirectly related to their addressing unspoken issues involved in the topic of the "right to know". Namely, these are: - the patronization that individuals feel subjected to by others who have determined that the individuals will not be able to cope with "terrible secrets". - the elusive definition of the term "national security" which has been perhaps the most common justification for secrecy regarding the UFO. The formal presentations that I am aware of that deal with the public's possible reaction for revalation of UFO information are: The Brookings Report a report that many talk about, few have read in its entirety and even fewer have owned a copy of this document). If anyone knows of the source for the printed, not web, version of and have information on where it can be purchased let me know. On Public Reaction Chapter 19, pp. 130-146, of UFOs The Real Story, 1974 Ballintine Books, NY by Robert Emenegger For readers not familiar with the latter source or do not have access to a copy I have reproduced Chapter 19 below for fair use only on this List as the material is copyrighted. I believe that the book is out of print but usually it can be found through used booksellers. Gary Alevy ----- 19. ON PUBLIC REACTION Let us assume, for the present, that this event did actually happen, that extraterrestrial visitors did arrive. How would the public, once informed, respond? What chain of problems could it create in our society? How would you react, if there was enough documented evidence to support it? The Holloman scenario and the question of how the public would respond to it was put to five leading American social psychologists. They were asked to draw up a report based on available information and research. Because no such event has ever happened before, each psychologist had to draw on his own sources and experiences, and speculate on the probable result. The study was carried out under the direction of Dr. Leon Festinger of the School for Social Research, State University of New York. The contributors were Dr. Howard Rachlin, State University of New York; Dr. Elliot Aronson, University of Texas; Dr. Elaine Walster, University of Wisconsin; and one prominent authority from Yale, who wished to remain anonymous. Each contributor covered a different aspect of the problem, although in some cases they overlapped and reinforced each other. Keep in mind that time did not allow this project to be developed into a definitive study of the problem. The reports are given here in abridged form. 1 First, Dr. Aronson of the University of Texas believes that a person's reaction to news of the humanoid from outer space would depend to a very large extent on his prior belief, and his degree of commitment to that belief. "I do not believe that there will be many extreme reactions; people will not panic, they will not become aggressive, they will not leave the cities, they won't absent themselves from their workaday world." He points out that there have been examples of panic in such situations, such as the reactions to Orson Welles's radio adaptation of H. G. Wells's War of the Worlds. "But the situation ,is very different in 1974. Basically, it is not a panic situation; there is no clear and present danger." He feels "the news that a humanoid from outer space exists will not be terribly startling to most people, especially in view of the fact that the government apparently has the situation under control and has been interviewing this humanoid for three or four years." He went on, "A person's reaction to the news will depend on his prior beliefs. Let's look at a scenario in terms of two people. We can multiply these two people by several million and get what I would regard as the typical response of someone a) who is committed to the belief that there is life in outer space, that UFOs were and are a real phenomenon, and b) a person who has pooh-poohed the notion that UFOs are real and whose prior belief was that there is no human- like life in outer space." Sam and Mildred are husband and wife. During the fifties and sixties, as apparent sightings of UFOs began to attain national prominence, Sam became increasingly convinced that they were a real phenomenon. After all, Sam reasoned, many people in many walks of life testified to having seen strange objects floating in space. Some of these people were prominent, highly respected people, some were lawenforcement officers, like sheriffs, military officers. Many books have been written claiming that UFOs are a real phenomenon. Photographs were taken that seemed to show strange objects, etc., etc., etc. Millie, on the other hand, thought that the sighting of UFOs was a bunch of hogwash, that a lot of the so-called space ships were the work of pranksters; she could actually point to a few instances where pranks were uncovered and generalized from these data. Furthermore, many of the other so-called sightings could be explained on the basis of hysteria-a few gullible people were taken in, or they saw sunspots or various cloud formations and that this kind of sighting spread by hysterical people to the point where many people were "seeing" things that really didn't exist. For support, she quotes a report from a government-sponsored commission, published in the late sixties, which concluded that there is no evidence to support the notion that UFOs exist. The commission was chaired by Edward Condon, a highly regarded physicist. She is convinced that there is no human-like life on outer planets, and therefore UFOs cannot possibly be a real phenomenon. Over the years Sam and Millie have argued bitterly about the topic of UFOs and whether or not they exist. Thus when the press conference was held breaking the news of the humanoid's existence, Sam's immediate internal reaction was intense and unmitigated joy. After all, his belief was confirmed. His commitment was exonerated. But after an initial hurrah, his dominant and persistent response was calm acceptance. He sees no need ... to stay home from work-he does not do anything differently. He was convinced for years that intelligent human life existed in outer space and it is certainly not surprising to learn that the government now has absolute proof of that existence-proof in the form of this person whom they have been interviewing for the past four years or so. They have been in direct contact with this person for four years and no disaster has struck and, accordingly, it is highly unlikely that any disaster would occur in the foreseeable future. It should be emphasized that Sam's calm acceptance of the news that human life from another planet does definitely exist is in part Sam's way of demonstrating his confidence in his prior beliefs. That is to say, the calmer he can react in public and the more accepting he is of the event without outward show of intense emotion, the more convincing he will be to himself and to other people. Thus, when Sam arrives at the office and his colleagues ask him if he's heard the news, he simply shrugs and says, "It was simply a matter of time-1 knew it would happen sooner or later." Mildred's reaction, on the other hand, is quite different. When she sees the press conference and views the humanoid she immediately suspects that the government is lying. Because of the fact that she has committed herself to the belief that UFOs are a farce and do not exist and to the belief that there is no intelligent life in outer space, anything that implies that she is wrong must be derogated and disposed of. Thus, Mildred immediately assumes that the government has something to gain by implying or demonstrating that they do indeed have a humanoid from outer space. ("Perhaps Nixon is trying to divert attention from Watergate or the energy crisis.") Thus, in almost a paranoid manner she convinces herself that it is a sham, that the socalled humanoid is an actor playing an elaborate role, hoodwinking the gullible. If she can succeed in doing this, then she can succeed in maintaining her high self-concept and in not losing the running argument that she's been having with Sam (and others) over the past several years. Now in order to do this, she has to go to great lengths to convince herself and others that the government has something to gain by doing this and that the government is dishonest and clever. Thus she will recall the Watergate situation, the so-called dirty tricks, what John Mitchell referred to as the White House Horror Stories, as examples of the duplicity and sham, as the lengths which the people in the government are willing to go in order to promote something that is to their own advantage. Moreover, because her belief has been apparrently disconfirmed, she will seek social support for the continuation of that belief. Thus, she will frantically run around to try to convince other people that there is no life in outer space, that the so-called humanoid is a fake. Notice, if you will, the contrast between Sam's behavior and Mildred's behavior. Sam's behavior is calm acceptance. Mildred, on the other hand, is fervently buttonholing and attempting to convince everyone in sight that the humanoid doesn't really exist, but he's a paid actor in makeup, etc. . . . In summary, not only does she construct plausible and elaborate theories of deception and conspiracy to account for this apparent phenomenon, but in addition, she seeks a good deal of social support for her belief. The evidence underlying this reasoning, stems largely from the theory of cognitive dissonance (Festinger, 1957). If an event occurs that is consonant with one's beliefs, that is, consistent with beliefs that a person has committed himself to, that person feels pleased, happy, calm, relaxed and is not motivated to do anything except be pleased. On the other hand, if events occur that are dissonant with the person's beliefs and commitments, he strives to reduce that dissonance. One way to reduce the dissonance is to deny the fact that those events have actually occurred, and in order to deny that fact, one has to construct an apparently reasonable explanation for the events that is consistent with the primary belief. Moreover, since a state of dissonance is an unstable and psychologically uncomfortable situation, one really needs to bolster that explanation for the events and to strengthen one's initial belief, in this case, the belief that there is no life in outer space. The more you can convince other people that you are right--in this case, the more you can convince other people that there is a government plot-the greater will be the reduction of dissonance and the more comfortable you will become. Evidence for this phenomenon stems from many experiments, most notably in a study by Festinger, Reicken, and Schachter (When Prophecy Fails). In this book, the authors describe a situation in which individuals predicted the end of the world and when the end of the world didn't come, they convinced themselves the reason it didn't come was because of their pious belief and fervent prayers. Prior to the disconfirming of their belief, they showed no apparent interest in proselytizing people; after the disconfirmation, they made great efforts to proselytize. More generally, there is a host of evidence indicating that when an individual commits himself to a particular action, unless there is good reason for that commitment, he comes to believe in that commitment, even in the face of a good deal of disconfirming evidence. When disconfirming evidence occurs, he tends to distort it so as to make it consonant with his beliefs. My description of Mildred's actions may be a bit extreme. It is conceivable that many people who committed themselves to the notion that the UFOs were figments of people's imagination would not take as extreme a position as Mildred did. That is, if the evidence of the existence of a humanoid is very powerful, or overwhelming, it would be very difficult for a person to maintain that the government was lying in the face of that much evidence, without exhibiting behavior that was bordering on the psychotic. In this case, the individual might try to reduce dissonance in an alternative manner. Perhaps he could accept that this humanoid does exist and still maintain that most of the evidence for UFOs in the past was imaginary. This would allow the person to convince himself that he was correct in his initial assessment in spite of the fact that there is life in outer space. But although it may seem far-fetched, Mildred's behavior is not without precedent. In several psychological experiments, it has been shown that people will tend to derogate the source of information that is dissonant with their own beliefs. For example, in an experiment by Aronson, Turner, and Carlsmith, it was shown that wherever the source of information was derogatable, people who discovered information that ran counter to their own opinions tended to derogate the source of that information, that is, by convincing themselves that that person was stupid, foolish, etc., etc. People do often change their opinions in the face of disconfirming evidence, but they will not change their opinions very easily if they have firmly committed themselves to that opinion in advance. That is, the evidence shows, if we believe something, but are not firmly committed to that belief, and we hear some evidence to the contrary from an unimpeachable source, we will change our opinions, but if we are deeply committed to that belief, and we encounter evidence that runs counter to our belief from a source that is derogatable, most of us tend to derogate the source of that information rather than give up our commitment to our prior belief (Aronson, Turner, Carlsmith). 2 Dr. Walster, in collaboration with four graduate students at the University of Wisconsin, approached the problem from another standpoint. They directed their attention to the importance, when presenting news of aliens landing, of emphasizing the physical similarities between them and us, playing down the dissimilarities in body parts, coloring, etc. Within the report there was a point made about the gift of knowledge and information that might be offered to us by the aliens and how we might respond: Most Americans have learned that one rarely gets "something for nothing." They know that when they accept benefits, which they cannot repay in kind, they may be obligated to repay their benefactor in unspecified ways for an unspecified time. Democritus (in the Fourth Century B.c.) said, "Accept favors in the foreknowledge that you will have to give a greater return for them." Americans are usually unwilling to extend such unlimited blanket credit. Or . . . Americans may have more specific fears. They may worry that their benefactor will demand excessive gratitude or constant acknowledgment of his social and moral superiority. Homans (1961) observed that "Anyone who accepts from another service he cannot repay in kind incurs inferiority as a cost of receiving the service. The esteem he gives the other he forgoes himself" (p. 320). Thus, social psychologists have found that individuals most appreciate gifts when they can give something in return. The Air Force, then, should be careful to stress that although the alien humanoids will surely give us things we want-universal peace, a cure for cancer, or solar energy-Americans also possess things the aliens want- jazz, achievement motivation and Colonel Sanders Chicken. Finally, Americans should be reassured that EarthAlien relationships are ultimately at their discretion. Regardless of how reassuring the interviewer is, aliens are still potentially frightening. (For example, if the aliens can provide enormous benefits, they may be more powerful than we are. What if they turn on us tomorrow?) Thus, Americans should be made to feel that it is their hand which guides the Fail-Safe button. . . . The fact that the aliens possess these weaknesses should be revealed to the public. It will reassure them that if worst comes to worst, the aliens-so recently brought into their lives and who seem to promise so much-can be taken out of their lives. 3 The third and most comprehensive report was from a highly regarded psychologist in the field of social behavior. For reasons of his own, his name will remain confidential. His analysis was peppered with enough levity to make it not only informative but enjoyable. He begins with the statement that available theory and research can be quite useful, but in a very limited way. He then dubs the Holloman Air Force Base incident as the "Humanoid-Organisms-Allegedly-Extraterrestrial HOAEX, for short." This he feels would be the reaction of the many eminent scientists, statesmen, journalists, and educators that were not asked to be present to witness the incident. The doctor states: The initial skepticism, and outright disbelief publicly expressed by many eminent scientific authorities as well as by other prestigious leaders of the national community who were not insiders will have a marked effect on the reactions of the U.S. public. They will call attention to the improbabilities of the TV press conference scenario such as: - How likely is it that creatures from another world with the capability of sending emissaries here would do so without radio contact first? -How likely is it that the creatures could survive in the earth's atmosphere-or are they in a sealed environment that they brought along with many years' supply of the gases they need, etc.? -Would the representatives of a vastly superior civilization allow themselves to be kept at an Air Force base for three years? The announcement will also get a very bad press from leading scientists and politicians in the Soviet Union and in other countries where the U.S. government, and especially the U.S. military establishment, is not trusted. Some of them will point out that the U.S. would not be wasting its time on presenting the HOAEX on TV unless they were up to no good. For example, they may speculate that the U.S. Air Force is planning to use a new destructive weapon against the S.U. and claim to the world, on the basis of its HOAEX show, that it was done by remote control. In the absence of any clear-cut demonstration that would be utterly convincing to the majority of scientists outside the little circle of the AFB, the authenticity of HOAEX will continue to influence the public's views and actions, even if supposedly convincing evidence is continuously being presented on later TV shows and in documentary movies by the AF and its scientists (and by other scientists invited to join the prestigious university lab to which the HOAEX visitors have been transferred to counteract charges of an AF plot). Many of the scientists who initially attacked the credibility of the original TV show will have publicly committed themselves. And public commitment is a great source of resistence to persuasive communications that might otherwise change a person's mind; it leads the person to reduce dissonance or conflict by bolstering his original position with new arguments. (Such studies have been made by: Deutsch, Krauss and Rosenau, 1962; Fesfinger, 1964; Gerard, Blevans, and Malcolm, 1964; Janis and Mann, 1968; Kiesler, 1968; McGuire, 1968.) So the public will continue to be treated to a wide variety of impressive negativistic comments during the months following the upcoming TV show, which will make for considerable ambiguity. Most people, when asked for an opinion on what they think the public reaction would be to aliens from a dis tant planet landing, seem to feel it would result in panic addressing himself to the possibility of panic, he gave this response: . . . studies of public reactions to war, disasters, epidemics, and other such frightening events indicate that mass panic rarely occurs except under certain very unusual circumstances (Baker and Chapman, 1962; Barton, 1969; Berkun et al., 1962; Fritz and Marks, 1954; Janis, 1951 and 1971; Kelley et al., 1965; Wolfenstein, 1957). The main type of situation in which mass panic is likely to occur is one in which people are suddenly made aware of clear and present danger that is rapidly encroaching and they also perceive that the escape routes will soon be closed so that within a few minutes they will be trapped (e.g., a conflagration inside a crowded theater). These are essentially the same circumstances that create acute traumatic neurosis, giving rise to spells of uncontrollable anxiety and memory loss and other cognitive impairments that persist for days or weeks. (Grinker and Spiegel, 1945; Janis, 1951; KaTdiner and Spiegel, 1947; Tyhurst, 1957.) Panic does not invariably occur even when these extreme conditions are present. Subsidiary factors also play a role. Under conditions of potential entrapment, ambiguities about how extensive and horrible the danger might be will heighten fear and contribute to panic. (But it should be noted that panic is not a likely response to verbal warnings that are ambiguous with regard to authenticity or that create uncertainty as to whether there might be severe, mild, or no danger at all in the offing. The disaster literature cited above indicates that ambiguous warning messages are likely to be discounted and ignored by all except a small percentage of people, mainly hyperanxious neurotic persons.) According to studies of war and disaster, three other factors also contribute to the probability that a person will display a panic reaction under conditions of potential entrapment: (1) lack of opportunity for engaging in vigorous protective action; (2) loss of contact with members of the family or with other primary groups; (3) lack of reassuring communication from esteemed persons. Another stereotype about public reactions to exotic threats that is promoted by some sensationalistic journalists is that many people are likely to wander about senselessly, like zombies. It is true that stunned, dazed, and psychotic-like withdrawal are sometimes observed in large-scale disasters, but usually it is among people who have been severely vic- timized--e.g., who have been injured or who have seen members of their family killed. None of the primary or contributory factors that make for panic or traumatic neurotic reactions, or stunned psychotic-like behavior, are likely to be present as a result of the upcoming TV press conference, with its emphasis on friendliness and cooperation with the HOAEX. Even if the message were suddenly to change the next day, with the HOAEX, presented as malign, threatening creatures who have massive death-ray weapons that can wipe out entire cities, the mere warning message itself is unlikely to evoke panic, since there is no clear and present danger. But what about Orson Welles's radio broadcast of the "Invasion from Mars"--didn't that cause a mass panic? True, the word "panic" has been used to describe the public's reactions. But a careful reading of Cantril's (1940) study of that so-called panic reveals that a small number of people in New Jersey went so far as to get into their cars to evacuate (some after carefully filling the car with essential provisions) in response to an official radio announcement to evacuate by the Governor of New Jersey. For most people, the "panic" consisted only of telephoning friends and relatives to tell them about the bad news they just heard. The main cause of the excitement was the realistic newscasts about gas spreading in New Jersey and the Governor's evacuation warning heard by people who tuned in after the program started and missed the initial announcement that it was a fictional presentation. Panic and distraught wild behavior are certainly in everyone's repertoire and could be evoked if the scenario for HOAEX were drastically changed-if they came as enemies, performed an amazingly destructive demonstration to show unambiguously the powerful capabilities of their superior weapons and then announced that within a very short time limit everyone in a particular metropolitan area of the U.S. would be dealt that same destructive treatment. Within the doomed area, panic behavior might then become widespread unless extraordinarily skillful leaders took command of the situation, giving impressive reassurances, organizing the evacuation, and mobilizing other protective actions. But that is an entirely different scenario from the one that was given. So far I have mainly been talking about how people will not behave. How will they behave? Hunger for news. Given the sensational nature of the upcoming televised press conference, the vast majority of people in the U.S. will display newshungry behavior-many will be glued to the TV set watching for the latest developments. The controversy about authenticity will add to the hunger for news. Even those people who think the whole thing is a hoax will be keenly interested in picking up every scrap of news and comment they can because of uncertainty about who is up to what. . . . And the more the uncertainties, especially about the possible hidden malignant intentions of the representatives of the superior civilization, the more rumors will spread throughout the nation about secret information that the government's withholding (cf. Allport and Postman, 1947). He then addresses himself to the question of public behavior: The main behavioral consequence of all information- seeking and misinformation-spreading will be absenteeism. While few workers and clerks will stay home during the day to watch TV, many of them will engage in mental absenteeism in the factory or office. Large numbers of people will be too busy talking to each other about the news, listening to transistor radios, and reading newspapers to do more than a small fraction of their normal daily work. How long this will last will depend partly on how long the story is kept alive by the mass media and partly on how long the major ambiguities persist. If the whole thing is promptly exposed as a hoax and the perpetrators are identified and their intent made clear, public interest will die. Or if the supply of fresh news quickly becomes exhausted, public interest will soon subside-as in the case of the moon shots. But otherwise for quite a time after the upcoming TV show interest in HOAEX will upstage the impeachment proceedings in the House and the trial in the Senate. Even Nixon's resignation speech on the eve of the Senate vote will receive less attention. Those who are more uncertain, skeptical, or outright disbelieving, will be unlikely to develop a grassroots, anti-govemmental mass movement so long as there is no clear-cut threat or deprivation to mobilize collective action (see.Milgram and Toch, 1969; Smelser, 1963). Nevertheless, there will be some preestablished small groups that will be mobilized for action-proselytizing, making propaganda for their cause, organizing demonstrations, etc. First, there are the religious doomsday cults that thrive on flying saucers and little blue or green humanoids. All the publicity about their "thing," on which they practically held a monopoly until the upcoming TV show, will mobilize them to become much more active in making statements to the press; some will predict that the HOAEX civilization will destroy the earth next Tuesday. When their prophecies fail, some of these groups will react the way the doomsday group studied by Festinger, Riecken, and Schachter ( 195 6) did-markedly increasing their proselytizing behavior. Other such groups, however, may limit themselves to a "joyous reunion" when their prophecies fail, as did the members of the "Church of the True World" studied by Hardyk and Braden (1962). The proselytizing activity of some of the doomsday groups will be matched and possibly exceeded that of religious youth groups, like the Jesus freaks, who will treat the HOAEX story as a long-awaited sign that superhuman forces are at work in the universe. Many of the people who were impressed by the Chariots of the Gods (the book and the movie) and who are longing for an out-of-this-world hero like the Stranger in a Strange Land will rally to the cause of the blue humanoids and endow them with superhuman lovingkindness and messianic qualities. Support for the messianic religious movement-in the form of joining the group, participating in religious ceremonies, etc.- will be greately increased insofar as the authenticity of the HOAEX is attested to by reputable scientists and political leaders. (A messianic movement in Europe several centuries ago was given just such impetus when leading authorities of the time endorsed the authenticity of the messiah, as described by G. Scholern in Sabbati Sevi.) But the messianic movement may be limited in its appeal, attracting mainly those already predisposed to religious fringe movements. It will have more widespread appeal if the HOAEX encourage it, directly or indirectly, by claiming that they will help earth people to save themselves from the evils that beset mankind. In this case, a much more popular messianic religious movement is to be expected, especially if it is endorsed by prestigious national leaders. If the dissimilarities between the HOAEX and us are stressed in the mass media, and if the visitors continue to be kept in isolation, and if there are no promises of interaction between mankind and other representatives of the HOAEX civilization, then the more hostile type of fringe-group movements will be aided in recruiting more participants. These groups are generally made up of people who have seen better days and who chronically project evil intentions to out-groups; many of the members seem to be addicted to patriotic fervor, directed against enemies from within and from without, because it provides them with compensatory feelings of restoring their lost status (Bell, 1963; Elm, 1972; Hofstadter, 1963 and 1965; Lipset, 1963). As long as the mass media continue to emphasize the main message of the upcoming TV press conference-that the HOAEX are benign, friendly, and cooperative -the Blue Menace movement is not likely to become anything more than a slightly expanded fringe movement. Suppose that a week or so after that s how, they happen to mention in a TV interview that their mission is to prepare earth for the arrival of HOAEX colonizers who will naturally use their superior abilities and knowledge to run things here. Or perhaps that they have waited for all the USAF publicity to give them the maximum credibility they need to deliver an ultimatum, based say on the assumption vividly conveyed in Leo Szilard's story "Calling All Planets," namely, that earthlings have become dangerous to civilizations on other planets because mankind has nuclear weapons and is now achieving the capability of launching them to targets in outer space, but is unable to curb its destructive impulses. In order to counteract the menace to all higher forms of life throughout the universe, an appropriate ultimatum to the U.S., the S.U. and all other members of the nuclear club might be to dismantle all factories that manufacture atomic weapons and to destroy all cyclotrons and other equipment essential for maintaining or developing nuclear capabilities. In that case, as I mentioned earlier, the problem of panic would loom large (depending on whether the threatened destructive blow for failing to live up to the ultimatum was completely credible and whether the deadline was imminent). In general, under conditions of extreme threat, the need for affiliation and for reliance on powerful leaders becomes very strong (Collins and Helmreich, 1970; Gerard and Rabbie, 1961; Hamblin, 1958; Janis, 1958 and 1962; Latane, 1966; Radloff and Helmreich, 1968; Rabbie, 1961 and 1964; Schachter, 1959; Wrightsman, 1969). At the same time, many people will want to link up with the S.U. and other former enemies to cope with the common predicament (cf. Elms, 1972; Sherif, 1966). As Elms points out, some social scientists have suggested "that what we really need is an enemy invader from outer space; then we would unite as one species to drive the invader away, and live in peace thereafter." But we sure can't count on it. If the S.U. doesn't believe the authenticity of the ultimatum transmitted to the USAF and thinks that HOAEX is a hoax, we are in for real trouble-maybe World War III. ------ End of Chapter 19
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 11 Mysterious Lights Over Western Australia From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@get2net.dk> Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 07:18:08 GMT Fwd Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 10:19:20 -0500 Subject: Mysterious Lights Over Western Australia Source: Australian Broadcasting Corporation, http://www.abc.net.au:80/news/state/wa/archive/metwa-11feb1999-2.htm Stig *** Mysterious lights over WA unidentified Thursday 11 February, 1999 (11:55pm WST) ** Mystery surrounds overnight reports of an unidentified object seen flying over a small town in Western Australia's wheatbelt region. The National UFO Reporting Centre, in Melbourne, says it has received a number of reports of a flying saucer-shaped craft hovering in the sky for a few seconds near New Norcia, 132 kilometres north of Perth. The centre's Ross Dowe says it is the first time there has been such a sighting over the district. But Mr Dowe says he would be very interested to hear from others who may have experienced a similar sighting within 500 kilometres of the area. "This particular object had some five to six illuminations array system on the - whatever it was - and was seen for approximately five to ten seconds and shot up into the sky by a pilot," he said. Moora police say there were similar reports of flashing lights in the sky prior to Christmas, which turned out to be wreckage returning from space. =09 =A9 1999 Australian Broadcasting Corporation Updated: Wed Feb 10 24:00:03 1999 (WST) WST =3D Western Standard Time =09
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 11 UFO-related Issues A First In County Elections From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@get2net.dk> Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 07:21:48 GMT Fwd Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 10:19:43 -0500 Subject: UFO-related Issues A First In County Elections Source: Pittsburgh Post-Gazette, http://www.post-gazette.com:80/regionstate/19990210elect5.asp Stig ** County labor council endorsing Wecht Big boost for coroner in bid for nomination for county executive Wednesday, February 10, 1999 By James O'Toole, Politics Editor, Post-Gazette ** The Allegheny County Labor Council will endorse Coroner Dr. Cyril H. Wecht over Commissioner Mike Dawida in the race for the Democratic nomination for county executive. The endorsement, which is expected to be ratified tomorrow night by delegates from the approximately 180 union locals represented by the council, is a coup for Wecht, who is also considered a favorite over Dawida in next month's endorsement vote of the Democratic party's elected committee members. While the labor council did not back Dawida in the commissioners' election four years ago, the Democrat actively courted its support this year and clearly felt he had compiled a record that would attract it. "I'm amazed and disappointed, of course," Dawida said. "I've done more for working people than anyone else in the race." Dawida maintained that he had earned labor officials' backing - and predicted that he would get that of their rank-and-file members - through his support of a variety of economic development projects and his key role in blocking privatization proposals involving Kane Hospital and other areas of county operations. "I presume that full employment for the building trades, saving 3,000 jobs from privatization, getting almost all the [county union] contracts settled after Larry Dunn's union-busting crew failed to, I guess didn't matter," he said. "I guess they were more interested in alien autopsies than that." The latter remark was a reference to his rival Wecht's appearance on a cable television program examining the question of whether extraterrestrial beings had visited Earth. It marked the first time that UFO-related issues had emerged in a county election. "We're thrilled and very happy," said Abby Murphy, Wecht's campaign manager, "This is really such an important part of the Democratic Party constituency and the county as a whole." Wecht won the endorsement, which required a two-thirds vote of the labor council's executive board, after a series of candidate interviews conducted Saturday in the Doubletree Hotel Pittsburgh, Downtown. In addition to Wecht and Dawida, the labor leaders also grilled state Sen. Jack Wagner, D-Beechview, who has expressed interest in the executive race but has yet to announce any decision about running. The three Republican candidates for county executive, Commissioner Larry Dunn, and businessmen James Roddey and David Christopher, also spoke at the session, but the council decided not to make any recommendation in the GOP race. In the election for an at-large seat on the new Allegheny County Council, the group voted to endorse John DeFazio, who is active in the Steelworkers Union. Bonnie DiCarlo, a Highland Park businesswoman, and Harry Liller, a Democratic activist from Bethel Park, also sought the at-large endorsement. The endorsements will be officially announced Friday. In anticipation of the new form of county government, the labor group has said it will mount a stepped-up campaign of local political involvement this year. The council has also been active in seeking like-minded candidates for the 13 new council districts. In preparation for endorsements in those races, the group plans a series of interviews with council candidates Feb. 26-27. The unions' decision in the Democratic race for county executive was something of a surprise given the high threshold of support needed for an endorsement - a two-thirds majority - and the fact that Dawida had backed labor's position on several contentious issues, notably the Plan B initiative that is expected to boost employment. But at least some of the union officials were reportedly swayed by an opinion poll commissioned by the unions. It showed Wecht with a formidable early lead over the incumbent commissioner. "That same internal poll shows Mike Dawida handily defeating any Republican in the fall," claimed Karen Hochberg, Dawida's campaign manager. "When they endorsed [former Commissioner Tom] Foerster last time, we were 20 or 30 points behind in a poll." But one labor leader, Al Fondy of the Pittsburgh Federation of Teachers, denied that the decision was influenced by the survey. The PFT has yet to make its own endorsements, although its political action committee is among Wecht's contributors. "It's not at all poll-driven as far as I'm concerned," said Fondy. "Mike's a nice guy; Mike deserves a lot of credit because of Plan B, and leading the fight with[Mayor Murphy], but when he came out against the property tax, he gave us no place to go. That would be devastating to the schools, and it made our choice obvious." He referred to Dawida's call for the Legislature to eliminate the property tax and find a new but as yet unspecified source of revenue to replace it. =A9
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 11 Re: Y2K and UFOs From: Joseph Trainor <Masinaigan@aol.com> Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 07:30:13 EST Fwd Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 10:33:11 -0500 Subject: Re: Y2K and UFOs >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: Y2K and UFOs >Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 00:05:35 -0600 Dear List Members: Tim Brigham raised some interesting and valid points in his email yesterday. Namely, why does UFO Roundup run Y2K stories along with the usual UFO and Fortean stories? The main reason is that the mainstream media have consigned news stories of government preparations for Y2K-related unrest to the same 'black-hole' as UFO sightings. I was surprised months ago when Canada announced the call-up for Operation Abacus. Within a few days, I received a report about the UK's Territorial Army being activated. I read a number of newspapers that week, ranging from the Boston Globe to the New York Times to the Washington Post to the online version of the Arizona Republic, and there was nothing about these historic and certainly newsworthy events. Then again, the mainstream media did not cover the astounding one-night multiple-encounter UFO flap in Maine a year ago, either. Indeed, there was no mention of the sightings ranging from Houlton to Little Deer Isle in even the New England newspapers. Unless he or she read a Maine newspaper, a person living in Portsmouth, New Hampshire, just across the river from Kittery, Maine, would have had no knowledge of the UFO events taking place up north. The sad fact is this: the mainstream media is covering up these Y2K-related measures with the same diligence with which they brand all UFO enthusiasts as "kooks". Not all newspapers are doing this. The Sun-Chronicle of Attleboro, Massachusetts ran a short article on Secretary of Agriculture Dan Glickman's speech to Congress on February 4. Was it in your newspaper? If not, why not? Here are some key points from the article: "Agriculture Secretary Dan Glickman says it is unlikely the Year 2000 computer problem will cause widespread food shortages, partly because few U.S. farmers use high-tech systems that might be susceptible." Says Mr. Glickman. But according to the February/March 1999 issue of Farm and Ranch Living, page 51, "Computers are used on 83.3 percent of America's farms." The Sun-Chronicle article continues: "Instead, Glickman warned consumers against 'needless and frivolous stockpiling of supplies.' He promised his agency (U.S. Department of Agriculture) would work with the Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA) to distribute food if there were shortages." Yes, that's the same FEMA that took two weeks to organize disaster relief after Hurricane Andrew. In the small city of Armenia, Colombia, the mobs overran and sacked the Red Cross headquarters after only three days without food. But if you point this out, you're a "kook" or an "alarmist". Like UFOs, the secret Y2K preparations are a subject that is not mentioned in polite society. Instead, the mainstream media chooses to inform us about such earthshaking issues as the brand of lipstick favored by actress Julia Roberts. (Stila 'Kate'... yes, I read the tabloids, too.) Last week I received a report about an unusual "sparkling" UFO in the sky over Telford, Pennsylvania. Curiously enough, Telford was the scene of a week-long series of black helicopter overflights in April 1998. Now they've been visited by a UFO. It seems strange that, of all the towns in Pennsylvania, tiny Telford would be the focus of two anomalous events within a 12-month period. But it is, and there seems to be an interconnectedness, the exact parameters of which I cannot possibly explain, between all of the unusual phenomena which UFO Roundup tries to report. As a proud member of the alternative media, UFO Roundup is more interested in what the facts are, in what people are seeing and experiencing, than in what governments and varying members of the public think of us. If they want to dismiss the newsletter's contents as "UFO trash" or "New Age nonsense," let them. The strange parade of anomalous events goes right on rolling along. So long as people want to read about these events, the newsletter will do its best to gather any and all available facts and put them on the Net as quickly as possible. Joseph Trainor Editor UFO ROUNDUP
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 11 Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality From: Leanne Martin <leanne_martin@hotmail.com> Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 05:49:43 PST Fwd Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 10:57:16 -0500 Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@connectmmic.net> >Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 18:15:15 -0500 >>From: Mark Cashman <mcashman@ix.netcom.com> >>Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 15:26:40 -0500 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >>Subject: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >>>From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@connectmmic.net> >>>Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >>>Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 00:06:54 -0500 >>Is testimony insufficient for science? Yes and no. Are there >>problems with abduction testimony? Yes. I've posted on that >>fairly often and won't beat the mutilated horse again. I would hope so as a mutilated horse obviously isn't worth beating. Just don't beat yourself hoarse . . . >>Is there something else you want me to address? >Mark, >>From: Mark Cashman <mcashman@ix.netcom.com> >>Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 13:54:40 -0500 >>Fwd Date: Sat, 06 Feb 1999 00:05:00 -0500 >>Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >>>From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com> >>>Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 09:48:26 EST >>>To: updates@globalserve.net >>>Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >You asserted: >>Finally, we must be cautious, as always, in interpreting the >>results of hypnosis, especially when hypnosis is used to recall >>traumatic events. We don't know as much as we should about this >>subject. Some researchers suggest that traumatic memories are >>better than normal memories. Depending on the trauma such as a witness to an auto accident or to a ghastly death in the family. Auto accident victims report the scene as if it happened "in slow motion" indicating that their mind was so attuned that they didn't miss a 'frame'. Likewise, the family of a child who dies in a ghastly manner may react to it 'almost as if it wasn't their child "sort of like watching an enactment". >>Others suggest that PTSD can >>distort traumatic memories. It is certainly possible that at >>least some of those recalling encounters under hypnosis are >>distorting or confabulating a less threatening experience to >>defend their sanity against the real memories. This certainly >>would represent an inlet for cultural phenomena to stand in >>place of real events, without invalidating those events. Hypnosis is just as useful in recalling traumatic events as it is in aiding experiencers avoid them. The premise is that if you relax someone enough they will speak honestly about any/everything. I can assure you that if the 'hypnotized' are uptight/guilty/avoidant enough then hypnosis allows them to evade/elude/obfuscate (etc.) without the guilt normally associated with such deeds. The hypnosis supresses a range of 'controlling' neurofunctions that normally enable us to be 'socially compliant functionaries'. When hypnosis is used as a 'de-stressor' to enable access through the 'socially acceptable' barriers the hypnotized are likewise less afraid to use socially unacceptible tactics in avoiding deeper probing techniques. You are as likely to hear a lie as a truth. As I told James Bond Johnson a while ago: "Do not believe a single thing you are told in counselling at face value as it is often a lie that parallels a truth." (or words to that effect) >In: >>From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@connectmmic.net> >>Date: Sat, 06 Feb 1999 13:16:29 -0500 >>Fwd Date: Sat, 06 Feb 1999 17:44:44 -0500 >>Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >I offered: >>LOFTUS: One of the things that we know about memory for very >>upsetting experiences, traumatic experiences, is that the memory >>does not work like a videotape recorder. Agreed: My counsellor seemed surprised that my 'flashbacks' of a certain event in my life stopped at a certain point, beyond which was >>You don't just record >>the event and play it back later the way a videotape player >>would work. The process is much more complicated, and actually >>what's happening is you're storing bits and pieces of the >>experience. Later, when you try to tell somebody what happened, >>you are in some sense reconstructing that experience, you're >>piecing it together and essentially telling a story about your >>experience. >We are apparently talking about the same phenomena, except that >you state that distortions happen under hypnotic recollection of >an event. while actual evidence suggests that distortions happen >during "normal" recollection of a stressful event. I believe that _both_ are true and so you can get a "double distortion" if the circumstances are right (or wrong as the case may be). The thing is that you are always dealing with an individual who is just that - so individual as to be different from average. Forget the stats as they belong to numbers- here you are looking at a person. >Your post implied that serious distortions of memory apply ONLY >to the hypnotic state. This is not the case. Agreed. Serious distortions will apply with peer pressure, life stress, mental illness, work stress, amongst so many others, that what a person will 'confess to' under hypnosis may in fact be only what they 'need to confess to' in order to relax. >I understand testimony under hypnosis is a mutilated horse you >won't beat again, but this one looks like a foal (not a donkey). >If you care to leap to: >http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/dna/ >Judiciary systems are based on witness testimony. Modern DNA >tests are shaking this seriously. BTW, these tests are only a >couple of years old. In Oz (based on UK law) a judge can 'direct' a jury to think that _any_ witness testimony was suspect. Also, if a jury returns a verdict so at odds with the judge's thinking, the judge may declare the jury's verdict 'unsafe' (if I recall things correctly). >Maybe I hadn't made myself clear in the first place, but I fail >to understand how, in the knowing of the need-to-fit, one can >still rely to the content of a victim's testimony to assert the >validity of an abduction case. >Which should bring us to the next step: providing the testimony >is not originating from personality problems - I believe there >are ways to establish this - and not hoaxed <sigh>, maybe >someone should think of devising protocol to correlate >strangeness, stress and reality of an experience. True. A socio or psychopath, it is said, can be the most convincing of liars. This good point of yours ties in, obliquely, with the "Martin MIME" - the Movie Image Memory Equation >> why a person may develop any delusions of abduction based on the possible incidental quotient of movie imagery exposure from all possible media/per given date / cultural cross section. Now there's a mouth full . . . . I actually don't expect anyone to be able to work it out (it's not like the boy with constipation where he worked it with a pencil <VBG>) by themselves as it looks very "actuarial" and God knows that actuaries need to get a life as it is already. >To summarize: if the witness ain't a fool and/or a liar or >experiencing organic conditions that could alter their >perception of reality, $10.00 US something pretty real happened. >P.S. I've been on this List for almost 2 years now. Dead horses, >dead cows and dead dogs That'll teach you!!!!! <snip> Sounds like you've been to my local meat shop . . . :-) Regards, Leanne of the Gripple Grappled ... Hic!
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 11 Re: Research Query: Abductees - Any Blind From: Leanne Martin <leanne_martin@hotmail.com> Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 06:41:33 PST Fwd Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 12:19:44 -0500 Subject: Re: Research Query: Abductees - Any Blind >Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 21:03:13 -0500 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >From: Sue Kovios <bradford@globalserve.net> >Subject: Re: Research Query: Abductees - Any Blind Abductees? >>From: Leanne Martin <leanne_martin@hotmail.com> >>To: updates@globalserve.net >>Subject: Research Query: Abductees - Any Blind Abductees? >>Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 05:52:44 PST >>Question: >>Are there any reported cases of abductees having been blind, and >>if so, what were their reported inpressions of the physical >>nature, as well as other characteristics, of their alien >>abductors? >>Regards, >>Leanne ];-) >That's one question I asked Signor Velez quite awhile ago, along >with deaf eyewitnesses. >To his knowledge he could not recall coming across anything of >this nature nor did he remember anything in Budd's records. <snip> Thanks Sue, A great response but... To keep it as simple as possible... The question is really aimed at those who are 'vision impaired' as a permanenent physical condition and I am sorry I didn't make it 'that' plain. The purpose of the question was to try to ascertain the obvious perceptive differences of 'aliens' by the sighted compared with the unsighted. And that was all.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 11 Re: Research Query: Abductees - Any Blind From: Jean-Luc Rivera <JLRIV1@aol.com> Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 10:22:20 EST Fwd Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 12:28:02 -0500 Subject: Re: Research Query: Abductees - Any Blind >Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 21:03:13 -0500 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >From: Sue Kovios <bradford@globalserve.net> >Subject: Re: Research Query: Abductees - Any Blind Abductees? >>From: Leanne Martin <leanne_martin@hotmail.com> >>To: updates@globalserve.net >>Subject: Research Query: Abductees - Any Blind Abductees? >>Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 05:52:44 PST >>Question: >>Are there any reported cases of abductees having been blind, and >>if so, what were their reported inpressions of the physical >>nature, as well as other characteristics, of their alien >>abductors? >That's one question I asked Signor Velez quite awhile ago, along >with deaf eyewitnesses. >To his knowledge he could not recall coming across anything of >this nature nor did he remember anything in Budd's records. Hi Leanne, Sue and List Members, The only case I can remember in the literature is the case of Marianne Shenefield, who became legally blind, had some abduction experiences, reported she recovered shortly her vision then became blind again. This is what I remember from the top of my head; I don't know the seriousness of the case and if her story was seriously investigated. I would tend to doubt it (the investigation) as the 2 references I have are: - an article in 'UFO Magazine' (ex California), 1990, Vol. 5 no. 3 p. 37 - an article by Patricia Sable : 'The Strange Story Of A UFO Abductee: The Light From Within' published in that paragon of ufological research 'UFO Universe', Feb-March 1991, Vol. 1 No. 1 p. 14 I can dig them out if somebody is interested. Jean-Luc Rivera
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 11 Re: Y2K and UFOs From: Henny van der Pluijm <hvdp@worldonline.nl> Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 18:35:41 +0100 (MET) Fwd Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 13:44:07 -0500 Subject: Re: Y2K and UFOs >From: Joseph Trainor <Masinaigan@aol.com> >Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 07:30:13 EST >To: updates@globalserve.net >Subject: Re: Y2K and UFOs >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >>Subject: Y2K and UFOs >>Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 00:05:35 -0600 >Dear List Members: >Tim Brigham raised some interesting and valid points in his >email yesterday. Namely, why does UFO Roundup run Y2K stories >along with the usual UFO and Fortean stories? >The main reason is that the mainstream media have consigned news >stories of government preparations for Y2K-related unrest to the >same 'black-hole' as UFO sightings. <snip> Hi Joe and list, If this is true that would be a strange situation. Here in the Netherlands you simply can't escape from news, debates, background and commercials about the Y2K problem. Personally, I decided two years ago not to pay much attention to the whole thing, because it bored me even back then. Seems escape was impossible. __________________________________________ / Met vriendelijke groet/Best wishes \ Henny van der Pluijm hvdp@worldonline.nl Technology Pages http://home.worldonline.nl/~hvdp \______________________________________/
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 11 Re: Riddle of The Skies: Part 2 From: Neil Morris <Neil@adm1.ph.man.ac.uk> Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 17:54:59 +0000 Fwd Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 13:56:48 -0500 Subject: Re: Riddle of The Skies: Part 2 >From: Jeremy Anderson <Jerry@uforesearch.freeserve.co.uk> >To: <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: Re: Riddle of The Skies: Part 2 >Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 03:05:10 -0000 >>Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 14:39:52 -0500 >>From: Tony Spurrier <TSpurrier@compuserve.com> >>Subject: UFO UpDate: Riddle of The Skies: Part 2. >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >>>From: Ian Darlington <webmaster@interweb-design.co.uk> >>>To: <updates@globalserve.net> >>>Subject: Riddle of The Skies: Part 2. >>>Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 14:52:54 -0000 >>>'Riddle of The Skies' >>>Produced by Union Skyline for Channel 4 >>>In the second of a three part series currently airing on UK >>>television, we were presented with eyewitness accounts from >>>various pilots, air traffic controllers (ATC) and the military. >>I understand next week on this program some quite dubious >>footage will be shown. It'll be interesting to see how that is >>aired. >Tony, >Is the footage you refer to, taken over East Anglia, UK? If so, >it is from a substantial collection of footage by David Spoor. >The footage itself is quite remarkable and should be taken as >is. >However, Mr. Spoor was misled into believing that some of the >night time footage he captured, would be better recieved if >there were some foreground from a daylight sequence of the same >location, thereby giving the viewer some kind of reference in >relation to the size and distance of the craft. >Unfortunately, this 'addition' to the footage was not declared, >and someone immediately rushed forward with the suggestion that >this particular piece of film was hoaxed, therefore any footage >from Mr. Spoor should be treated with caution. >Caution, as we are all too aware, is something that must be >considered. >However, Mr. Spoor was in the company of another witness on many >occassions when objects/craft were captured on video tape. I >know the other witness (Peter Wrigglesworth), personally, and >have seen many hours of footage he has taken in and around the >very same locations frequented by David Spoor. >Please, don't dismiss the footage out of hand. I believe it >holds very important information that we should not, as >investigators, ignore. All, As the RPIT group already know, I was originaly contacted by John Purdie's Union Pictures in late November when they were casting round for people to check out the clips they had assembled, I declined the offer at the time, when they told me how many clips they had and the fact the shows were going out "mid Jan 99". But I got a pleading phone call 2 weeks ago asking me "please...." could I look at just one clip for them, so as it was just one clip I said ok, then they told me I only had (by the time I got the tape) one evening to come to some conclusions. Well they got their conclusions and a set of images on a CD too, they must have been impressed as they wanted to interview me on the program, I'm glad for the UK Updater's the interview fell through because of lack of time. The footage I looked at and commented on was a piece by David Spoor's or so the Tape said on the lable, I still have it at home. The footage will be in the last program as it was used in the trailer at the end of program 2, and I should have been interviewed for program 3. I've no idea if they are using the enhancements I made but according to JP's PA they seemed impressed and could be. I've put some of the original frame grabs I used with enhanced insets on my web site, some notes are also included. http://adm2.ph.man.ac.uk/union/index.htm One or two images show "interesting" structures on the triangle. Neil. -- * * * * * * * * Neil Morris. /101101101 Virtual Bumper Stickers Inc 10110101010\ Dept of Physics. 1 1 Univ of Manchester 0 0 Schuster Labs. 1 Computer Programmers DO IT with BITS of BYTES 1 Brunswick St. 0 0 Manchester. 1 1 UK. \0101010110010110110010110101101011011110101011010/ G8KOQ E-mail: neil@adm1.ph.man.ac.uk Roswell and Alien Autopsy Archive-> http://adm2.ph.man.ac.uk/ Dave Willetts Home Page-> http://adm2.ph.man.ac.uk/dave_willetts/ Mike Sterling Home Page-> http://adm2.ph.man.ac.uk/mike-s/ Tim Morgan Home Page -> http://adm2.ph.man.ac.uk/tim-m/ * * * * * * * *
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 12 Re: Research Query: Abductees - Any Blind From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net> Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 05:35:51 -0800 Fwd Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 02:16:40 -0500 Subject: Re: Research Query: Abductees - Any Blind >Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 18:20:22 -0800 (PST) >From: Rebecca Keith <xiannekei@yahoo.com> >Subject: Re: Research Query: Abductees - Any Blind Abductees? >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >>From: Leanne Martin <leanne_martin@hotmail.com> >>To: updates@globalserve.net >>Subject: Research Query: Abductees - Any Blind Abductees? >>Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 05:52:44 PST >>G'day List, >>There has been much discussion of late that has had to with what >>a particular abductee (any abductee) may have reported seeing as >>a characteristic, or set of characteristics, of their abducting >>alien/s. Also, what tie-in there may have been between the >>reported visual characteristics and what the abductee may have >>been exposed to as visual stimuli prior to abduction, i.e. >>science fiction beings. >>Question: >>Are there any reported cases of abductees having been blind, and >>if so, what were their reported inpressions of the physical >>nature, as well as other characteristics, of their alien >>abductors? >I'd like to add to the questioning, if I may. >Some abductees need to wear glasses to see. Some abductees are >abducted at night while in bed. Since most people do not wear >glasses to bed, I wonder what abductees who wear glasses to see >clearly report about their visual experiences? Or do they put on >their glasses before being taken away? An interesting question! Could anyone gather some statistics; i.e. what percentage of abductees need glasses to get around? I mean to drive, to shop etc... not just reading glasses. This percentage could be compared to the population at large. The same could be asked about more serious disabilities. Are there any amputees among the abductees? One eyed persons? Deaf people? How about those with debilitating or life threatening diseases? Anything along these lines might shed some light or offer a small clue to these matters. Best wishes - Larry Hatch
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 12 Re: UFO-related Issues A First In County Elections From: Terry Blanton <commengr@bellsouth.net> Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 13:08:54 -0500 Fwd Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 02:21:15 -0500 Subject: Re: UFO-related Issues A First In County Elections >From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@get2net.dk> >To: updates@globalserve.net >Subject: UFO-related Issues A First In County Elections >Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 07:21:48 GMT >Source: Pittsburgh Post-Gazette, >http://www.post-gazette.com:80/regionstate/19990210elect5.asp >Stig >** >County labor council endorsing Wecht >Big boost for coroner in bid for nomination for county executive > >Wednesday, February 10, 1999 >By James O'Toole, Politics Editor, Post-Gazette >** >The Allegheny County Labor Council will endorse Coroner Dr. >Cyril H. Wecht over Commissioner Mike Dawida in the race for the >Democratic nomination for county executive. <snip> Isn't this also the location where four young lads were abducted from a canoe while camping in the Allegheny woods? Sounds like Mr. Dawida needs to get with the program! Terry
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 12 Re: The Sheffield Incident From: Martin Jeffrey <mbkc67@dial.pipex.com> Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 18:14:04 -0000 Fwd Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 02:27:14 -0500 Subject: Re: The Sheffield Incident Hello everybody. I'm Martin Jeffrey and I investigated the Howden Moors Incident along with David Clarke and Max Burns. Both investigators gave me unique access to their files and I interviewed every witness involved with the case. I have spoken to "Emma Maidenhead" who is Max's main witness and I have seen the "evidence" relating to the embarrassing episode around Jonathan Dagenhart. When I first began to investigate this case less than ten hours after the incident began, I actually interviewed witnesses before any other UFO investigator. I also took UFO Magazine's investigators to a suspected site of a crash (bracken burning) and told of my current leads. After two weeks of intense investigation and research, I left the project believing what I do now. "This case was nothing more than a mix of coincidence and hysteria inadvertantly caused by the police and Sheffield media. The RAF, broke the sound barrier over Sheffield and the Howden Moors twice and this coincided with sightings of a low flying aircraft." Since this incident I have investigated Fortean phenomena and produce "Mystery Magazine" along with my wife, Louise. But after reading Max Burn's Sheffield Incident and reading some of the utter crap I was forced to investigate this incident again. Again, I have found nothing more other than more evidence of an over ambious investigator, tight lipped RAF officials and the excellent sight that for the first time people around the world have witnessed a UFO case twist and turn and develop from "just a mundane case" into a fully fledged thorough investigation. This case can no longer go on. Everybody has been interviewed. All aspects have been covered and all the characters/players are on display. This is why I have collaborated with David Clarke, (who once I did call the enemy!!) to write The Howden Moors Incident. It is a full concise version of events that everyone should buy.(Well I would say that!!) Also checkout David's lecture at the Southport conference, 'ave a word with Tim Matthews and get a ticket. I must apologise if this email sounds like a series of soundbites but I am currently busy and thought you should know my feelings.. Stay Weird!!! Martin Contact me at: admin@thejuice.co.uk
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 12 Re: What If? From: Steven Kaeser <konsulting@pop.digiweb.com> Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 10:49:45 -0500 Fwd Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 02:42:14 -0500 Subject: Re: What If? >Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 02:03:40 -0500 >From: Gary Alevy <galevy@pipeline.com> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: Re: What If? <snip> >The Brookings Report >a report that many talk about, few have read in its entirety and >even fewer have owned a copy of this document). If anyone knows >of the source for the printed, not web, version of and have >information on where it can be purchased let me know. Gary, and list- It was at one time possible to find the full Brookings Institute report on the Internet, and I would suspect you can still find it somewhere. To my knowledge, this wasn't modified from the original. The versions that I located is included on FUFOR's FBI/NSA FOIA CD-ROM (information can be found at www.fufor.org), along with the U.S. Air Force "2025 Report". Both the Executive Summary of the Brookings Institute report and the full report are included.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 12 Re: Y2K and UFOs From: Steven Kaeser <konsulting@pop.digiweb.com> Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 11:20:25 -0500 Fwd Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 02:53:06 -0500 Subject: Re: Y2K and UFOs >From: Joseph Trainor <Masinaigan@aol.com> >Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 07:30:13 EST >To: updates@globalserve.net >Subject: Re: Y2K and UFOs <snip> >As a proud member of the alternative media, UFO Roundup is more >interested in what the facts are, in what people are seeing and >experiencing, than in what governments and varying members of >the public think of us. If they want to dismiss the >newsletter's contents as "UFO trash" or "New Age nonsense," let >them. The strange parade of anomalous events goes right on >rolling along. So long as people want to read about these >events, the newsletter will do its best to gather any and all >available facts and put them on the Net as quickly as possible. >Joseph Trainor >Editor >UFO ROUNDUP Joseph- As with the UFO phenomenon, Y2K has taken on a far greater meaning than had originally been intended. I would agree that not enough attention is being paid by many agencies and Y2K testing is behind schedule. Some countries (such as Russia) have indicated they aren't going to do any testing at all and will simply fix problems after they occur. So, the preparation that is underway runs from one end of the spectrum to the other. The media in my area has done a number of stories on the local testing, and as this year progresses I suspect there will be an increase in their frequency. But there are very basic differences between coverage given to Y2K and that of the UFO phenomenon, and their placement in the media (at least in my area) reflects that difference. I applaud your efforts to keep UFO Roundup as a source of UFO information, but IMHO the parallels between that issue and that of the "Y2K bug" are very limited. Steve
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 12 Re: Research Query: Abductees - Any Blind From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com> Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 13:59:14 EST Fwd Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 02:56:00 -0500 Subject: Re: Research Query: Abductees - Any Blind >Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 18:20:22 -0800 (PST) >From: Rebecca Keith <xiannekei@yahoo.com> >Subject: Re: Research Query: Abductees - Any Blind Abductees? >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >>From: Leanne Martin <leanne_martin@hotmail.com> >>To: updates@globalserve.net >>Subject: Research Query: Abductees - Any Blind Abductees? >>Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 05:52:44 PST >>G'day List, >>There has been much discussion of late that has had to with what >>a particular abductee (any abductee) may have reported seeing as >>a characteristic, or set of characteristics, of their abducting >>alien/s. Also, what tie-in there may have been between the >>reported visual characteristics and what the abductee may have >>been exposed to as visual stimuli prior to abduction, i.e. >>science fiction beings. >>Question: >>Are there any reported cases of abductees having been blind, and >>if so, what were their reported inpressions of the physical >>nature, as well as other characteristics, of their alien >>abductors? >I'd like to add to the questioning, if I may. >Some abductees need to wear glasses to see. Some abductees are >abducted at night while in bed. Since most people do not wear >glasses to bed, I wonder what abductees who wear glasses to see >clearly report about their visual experiences? Or do they put on >their glasses before being taken away? Rebecca and Leanne... List and others... I have always been nearsighted.... every since I was a kid. All my memories of these events contain the same three or four bits of information, one of which may interestingly, be related to eyesight.... these similar bits include the following.... 1) An almost milky white, hazy or foggy type of environment. 2) Everything is out of focus.... blurred. Since there is no memory of me wearing my glasses, and since there have been episodes of experiences before and after I was fitted with glasses, and since the blurred vision is still there, I must assume I was not wearing any aid to vision. What may be key is that my vision had not changed from age (under) 5 thru age 20... and boy am I nearsighted. So without glasses, everything is blurred at more than five or ten feet. I was not given glasses until age 10 years old. Therefore the blurred aspects of these experiences seem to be consistent with myopia before and after being given eyeglasses. Gesundt,
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 12 Re: Research Query: Abductees - Any Blind From: Marc Bell <MARC@wufog.freeserve.co.uk> Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 19:10:29 -0000 Fwd Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 02:59:51 -0500 Subject: Re: Research Query: Abductees - Any Blind >Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 18:20:22 -0800 (PST) >From: Rebecca Keith <xiannekei@yahoo.com> >Subject: Re: Research Query: Abductees - Any Blind Abductees? >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> Hi Rebecca, I am a short sighted abductee and found this very interesting. I can personally testify about many of my own experiences in this respect. Virtually all of my abductions have been night-time and without my glasses. Both through conscious recall and regression:- a) my visual perception is similar to vision without glasses b) I have no recall of ever putting my glasses on as part of any experience c) I have many memories before the age of 7 years and these involve very clear vision. At the age of 7 years my eye sight was inpaired by Scarlet Fever (now thankfully a pretty rare condition in the UK). All the best, Marc Bell
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 12 Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality From: Mark Cashman <mcashman@ix.netcom.com> Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 11:51:22 -0500 Fwd Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 03:20:48 -0500 Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@connectmmic.net> >Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 18:15:15 -0500 >We are apparently talking about the same phenomena, except that >you state that distortions happen under hypnotic recollection of >an event. while actual evidence suggests that distortions happen >during "normal" recollection of a stressful event. >Your post implied that serious distortions of memory apply ONLY >to the hypnotic state. This is not the case. I'm afraid you read this into it. I did not refer to "hypnotically elicited memories", but just "memories". >If you care to leap to: >http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/dna/ >Judiciary systems are based on witness testimony. Modern DNA >tests are shaking this seriously. BTW, these tests are only a >couple of years old. I'm not sure what relevance this has. The witness may not have correctly identified the perpetrator for a variety of reasons well covered in the witness psychology literature, but that does not mean the event did not occur. >Maybe I hadn't made myself clear in the first place, but I fail >to understand how, in the knowing of the need-to-fit, one can >still rely to the content of a victim's testimony to assert the >validity of an abduction case. That's why we have tools like the Hynek probability scale. As I mentioned at one time on this list, a single witness abduction cannot be granted any greater probability that a single witness NL or CE case - i.e. about 3. I suspect that it would be a wise idea to use the following scale (or something like it): 1) No or vague conscious memory of abduction prior to hypnosis - probability 1 2) Solid conscious memory leading up to abduction, missing time, hypnotic testimony - probability 2 3) Complete conscious memory of all aspects of case - probability 3 In studying UFOs we have greater and lesser degrees of certainty. I am especially uncertain about abductions. However, I try to keep an objective mind with regard to the evidence which exists, and I look forward to better data. Once in a while, I even throw in my two cents as to how that data could be obtained. >P.S. I've been on this List for almost 2 years now. Dead horses, >dead cows and dead dogs have been discussed among/by dedicated >ufologists. If a crippled horse were an excuse for not answering >someone, this List would be dead by now. Perhaps, but that doesn't obligate anyone to deal with the carcasses. :-) ------ Mark Cashman, creator of The Temporal Doorway at http://www.temporaldoorway.com - Original digital art, writing, and UFO research - UFO cases, analysis, classification systems, and more... http://www.temporaldoorway.com/ufo.htm
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 12 Re: Riddle of The Skies: Part 2 From: Tony Spurrier <TSpurrier@compuserve.com> Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 14:52:01 -0500 Fwd Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 03:42:58 -0500 Subject: Re: Riddle of The Skies: Part 2 >From: Jeremy Anderson <Jerry@uforesearch.freeserve.co.uk> >To: <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: Re: Riddle of The Skies: Part 2 >Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 03:05:10 -0000 >Is the footage you refer to, taken over East Anglia, UK? If so, >it is from a substantial collection of footage by David Spoor. >The footage itself is quite remarkable and should be taken as >is. >However, Mr. Spoor was misled into believing that some of the >night time footage he captured, would be better recieved if >there were some foreground from a daylight sequence of the same >location, thereby giving the viewer some kind of reference in >relation to the size and distance of the craft. Last year we met with David to view the footage and decide whether it was appropriate to show at our conference. I agree the footage is quite spectacular but I was a bit perplexed to say the least when David didn't volunteer the scenario you have given above. We then wrote to David and Jean thanking them for their hospitality,and also mentioned that we were aware of some anomalies with the footage. David called the morning he received the letter and apologised, his excuse for not mentioning it was that he was told to keep it quiet! I then spoke to someone who had checked the footage out and discovered that David's story kept changing, also that the original footage had been destroyed therefore no conclusive verification would ever be possible. David told me that he did indeed have the original footage and was waiting for it to be analysed. We offered David assistance with an independant analysis if the original footage was available, this offer was later declined by Maxine Pearson as Channel 4 were going to authenticate the footage. To cut a long story short, we told David we would not be able to show the footage unless there was some form of verification to it being genuine and untouched. David told me that he wasn't going to show the footage again publicly until this independant analysis was complete. David then pulled out of some other conferences blaming us for some reason. The question is why does David keep changing his story, and try to blame everyone else for his decisions and actions? This is why I stated the footage is dubious, not necessarilly hoaxed. >Unfortunately, this 'addition' to the footage was not declared, >and someone immediately rushed forward with the suggestion that >this particular piece of film was hoaxed, therefore any footage >from Mr. Spoor should be treated with caution. Are you aware that the sound track has possibly been dubbed on other pieces of his footage? What reason is there for him to do this? >Caution, as we are all too aware, is something that must be >considered. >However, Mr. Spoor was in the company of another witness on many >occassions when objects/craft were captured on video tape. I >know the other witness (Peter Wrigglesworth), personally, and >have seen many hours of footage he has taken in and around the >very same locations frequented by David Spoor. When I met with Peter he wasn't exactly corroborating David's footage. Btw, have you been to the bottom of Peters garden? >Please, don't dismiss the footage out of hand. I believe it >holds very important information that we should not, as >investigators, ignore. I was not dismissing the footage 'out of hand' I have dealt personally with David over this footage and there is something not quite right about the ever changing stories. Eventually David and co. pulled out of his possible inclusion in the conference as we refused to put him and his entourage up in a hotel for the entire weekend. Perhaps somewhere in all this saga there is an issue of money. Do you know if Union Pictures bought the rights to his footage? If the footage has not been authenticated then anyone viewing it should do so with an air of caution. It will be interesting to see how the documentary presents the footage, and see which of the stories emerge.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 12 Re: Riddle of The Skies: Part 2 From: Tony Spurrier <TSpurrier@compuserve.com> Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 15:32:01 -0500 Fwd Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 09:11:32 -0500 Subject: Re: Riddle of The Skies: Part 2 >Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 17:54:59 +0000 >From: Neil Morris <Neil@adm1.ph.man.ac.uk> >To: updates@globalserve.net >Subject: Re: Riddle of The Skies: Part 2 >As the RPIT group already know, I was originaly contacted by >John Purdie's Union Pictures in late November when they were >casting round for people to check out the clips they had >assembled, I declined the offer at the time, when they told me >how many clips they had and the fact the shows were going out >"mid Jan 99". >But I got a pleading phone call 2 weeks ago asking me >"please...." could I look at just one clip for them, so as it >was just one clip I said ok, then they told me I only had (by >the time I got the tape) one evening to come to some >conclusions. Well they got their conclusions and a set of images >on a CD too, they must have been impressed as they wanted to >interview me on the program, I'm glad for the UK UpDater's the >interview fell through because of lack of time. >The footage I looked at and commented on was a piece by David >Spoor's or so the Tape said on the lable, I still have it at >home. The footage will be in the last program as it was used in >the trailer at the end of program 2, and I should have been >interviewed for program 3. I've no idea if they are using the >enhancements I made but according to JP's PA they seemed >impressed and could be. >I've put some of the original frame grabs I used with enhanced >insets on my web site, some notes are also included. Neil It is obvious that David Spoor does have access to equipment to recreate and/or alter images, due to him admitting altering some footage for the conference in Nevada last year. I gather from your website that you feel the footage is genuine, but what equipment would be needed to create similar images to the same standard? Btw, did you check the original footage? Were you aware that some other footage had been tampered with, and if not does that alter your opinion on the footage you saw? Thanks, Tony
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 12 Re: Sighting, Toronto - February 3rd 1999 From: Mark Cashman <mcashman@ix.netcom.com> Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 12:07:27 -0500 Fwd Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 10:52:18 -0500 Subject: Re: Sighting, Toronto - February 3rd 1999 >Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 07:29:34 -0500 >To: "UFO UpDates Subscribers":; >From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: UFO UpDate: Sighting, Toronto - February 3rd 1999 >Toronto, Ontario Canada - February 3rd 1999 >Garfield Bowser, a professional engineer, reported to Larry >Fenwick of the Canadian UFO Research Network that he saw a >wingless, noiseless, three-hundred foot long, 50 foot high >object with what he describes as a "nubin" on top. It was over >St. Clair Avenue West, a little beyond Casa Loma. This dead horse still twitches. Please, the witness may have seen an object which subtended x degrees horizontally and y degrees vertically, but the witness cannot know it was 300 feet long and 50 feet high without knowing how far away it was... >This was a daylight sighting, seen from St. George and Bloor >Street. Therefore, the witness was not underneath it, and unless the object occluded a more distant object and was simultaneously occluded by a closer one, or a shadow was observed cast onto St. Clair Avenue West, or a triangulation was performed, we do not know how far away the object was, and without that and the angular speed, it is impossible to estimate that... >...the object was moving at about 400 >miles per hour. People on this list should know better than to accept or republish witness estimates of this sort. Please, help improve the data. Get angular size, angular speed, angular elevation, azimuth, the height of the witness above the ground, any occluded or occluding landmarks. Do not accept speed, size or distance estimates for objects more distant than about 500 feet. And still collect the above data for such sightings so that the estimates can be independently verified. ------ Mark Cashman, creator of The Temporal Doorway at http://www.temporaldoorway.com - Original digital art, writing, and UFO research - UFO cases, analysis, classification systems, and more... http://www.temporaldoorway.com/ufo.htm
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 12 CompuServe UFO Forum? From: Roy Hale <roy.hale@virgin.net> Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 20:11:24 -0000 Fwd Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 12:16:10 -0500 Subject: CompuServe UFO Forum? Hi To All, This one is for those colleagues who are also members of the CompuServe UFO Forum. Can I explain: Last night I received an e-mail from a very good friend, who has herself received an e-mail from a colleague who asked her if I had written anything for the CompuServe UFO Forum. I know that there has been an old report of the group I am involved with E.L.U.F.O.N. (Essex & London UFO Network Inc: Down To Earth Magazine) which was called the "Three Sided Mystery". This report was based on sightings of the "Black Triangle" and was posted by an ex-member of E.L.U.F.O.N. sometime last year. I am unaware of me personally writing another report for the CompuServe UFO Forum, as I quite obviously do not have access to CompuServe. So if I can I would like to ask anyone who uses the C.UFO.Forum as well as UFO Updates, whether or not they have read an article of recent on the Forum which may have mentioned myself or perhaps the group name E.L.U.F.O.N. as we would like to possibly be able to read the report (if it exsits) and to also find the source of the report, as I mentioned I am unaware of either myself or any of E.L.U.F.O.N. members having posted anything to this Forum because none of us are on CompuServe. If you have indeed come across such a report, and you happened to have read it, could I possibly ask you to forward a copy of the report to the following address: roy.hale@virgin.net & elufon@yahoo.com . This may turn out to be a complete mix up of names, but my friend was quite adamant that my name had at least been mentioned within the article. Can I thank you in advance of helping myself and E.L.U.F.O.N. for your co-operation. Kind Regards, Roy Hale..
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 12 Re: Riddle of The Skies: Part 2 From: Tony Spurrier <TSpurrier@compuserve.com> Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 16:07:29 -0500 Fwd Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 12:28:24 -0500 Subject: Re: Riddle of The Skies: Part 2 >Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 17:54:59 +0000 >From: Neil Morris <Neil@adm1.ph.man.ac.uk> >To: updates@globalserve.net >Subject: Re: Riddle of The Skies: Part 2 >I've put some of the original frame grabs I used with enhanced >insets on my web site, some notes are also included. Hi Neil I have now checked the images and have a query on the following page: http://adm2.ph.man.ac.uk/union/rf3comp.gif Your enhancements show the image to be behind the roof, however, I have zoomed into the triangle image using Adobe PhotoDeluxe 2.0 and the image appears to be infront of the roof. What software did you use to enhance the triangle image? Can someone else check this photo and let us know what they think? Thanks, Tony
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 12 Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality From: John Rimmer <magonia@magonia.demon.co.uk> Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 21:26:18 +0000 Fwd Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 12:33:38 -0500 Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 22:21:51 -0500 >>From: Jeff King <Boroimhe@aol.com> >>Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 19:08:40 EST >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >>Subject: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >>Dennis again asks some excellent questions, but I'd like to >>throw in a couple of questions of my own. While I agree with >>Greg that it is difficult to develop a falsifiable hypothesis >>regarding the cultural influences on abduction narratives, this >>raises the question can Greg develop a way to falsify the >>hypothesis that people are being abducted by aliens? >Good question, Jeff. It's one I'd like to see lots of people on >both sides of the question try to answer. >I'm not sure, by the way, that I'm the one best qualified to >give a useful response. Just as I think that social scientists >ought to be involved in debates about media influence, I think >we need physical scientists for this one. I'd also note that -- >as far as I know -- in serious scientific work, it wouldn't be >easy to falsify any hypothesis as big as this one. Take the Big >Bang theory. I believe it rests on many smaller hypotheses, >which would be easier to confirm or falsify than the Big Bang >theory itself. >Still, I'll take a shot. If a reasonably large number of >abductees were constantly monitored by electronic and other >instruments (I'm not going to try to specify what those >instruments should be; it's not my field), and nothing showed >up, I'd be much less inclined to believe that abductions are >real. This is something that could be tested scientifically. There are a number of sleep laboratories attached to universities and medical institutes in Europe and the US. An experiencer claiming regular abduction episodes could spend some time at one of these labs, wired up to whatever electronic gizmos (hope I'm not getting too technical here) they use. If no abduction experiences took place during this time, well nothing would be proved one way or the other, but if the subject reported an abduction experience which was seen to coincide with periods of rapid eye movement, increased brainwave activity or whatever, it should be possible to come to some conclusion about the nature of the experience. So all we have to do is find a willing subject and an interested institution. Easy peasy. -- John Rimmer www.magonia.demon.co.uk Abandon hope all ye who press Enter here
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 12 Re: B-CAUS We Worry... From: Geri & Alfred Webre <Ecotoday@aol.com> Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 16:47:29 EST Fwd Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 12:39:20 -0500 Subject: Re: B-CAUS We Worry... To: updates@globalserve.net Subject: B-CAUS We Worry... From: Roger R. Prokic <rprokic@earthlink.net> Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 20:33 <snip> [The headers were incomplete - below is more insight into the increasing drift of Peter Gersten --ebk] <snip> In the interests of balance, we found the following CAUS account of Joe Firmage's visitation, if accurate, of interest. Maybe Peter's just having a mid-life crisis which is still allowed. Geri & Alfred Webre Vancouver, BC ----- Subj: [CAUS updates] - Personal Contact Experiences (PCEs) --Firmage; Gulf Breeze & 2 Others Date: 99-02-05 02:58:12 EST From: UFOLAWYER1@aol.com To: CAUSupdates@caus.org Dear CAUS Members: Well, its another Friday, and you know what that means...more Personal Contact Experiences (PCEs). So sit up, slowly scroll down and prepare to meet some of the strange creatures that share this reality with us: 1) Joe Firmage writes: One morning, before the SEC papers were due but after I'd pressed the "snooze" button on the alarm clock, I feel back to sleep. During that time, I was visited by a "remarkable being, clothed in brilliant white light," carrying a glowing blue sphere, the size of a basketball. He looked annoyed, and said something to the effect "why have you bothered me?" And I said, "I want to travel in space." (which was always my lifelong dream) He laughed and said, "Why should you have the opportunity to travel in space?" I immediately said "because I'm willing to die for it." He appeared stunned, and went quiet. Dropped his head, and out of him came an electric blue sphere, about the same size as a basketball. It entered me, and I was completely overcome with intense joy and pleasure. An ecstasy that was indescribable. The physical effect lasted minutes... It was a remarkable experience, though I'm not sure still what to make of it. For a left-brained, highly rational person such as myself to have it occur personally was a stunning reminder of how little we know of the spiritual side of existence. The physical effect was stunning: a more intense pleasure than I have ever experienced. Far beyond words... While the event could have been a mental image along, it was unlike any conceivable dream, and its physical effects reverberated in my body for minutes as I got up out of bed... <snip>
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 12 Re: Robert Todd On MJ-12 From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com> Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 18:03:54 +0000 Fwd Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 12:55:47 -0500 Subject: Re: Robert Todd On MJ-12 >From: Robert Todd <Bohica449@aol.com> >Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 20:21:41 EST >Fwd Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 06:54:10 -0500 >Subject: Re: Robert Todd On MJ-12 >>Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 07:26:37 -0500 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >>From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com> >>Subject: Re: Robert Todd On MJ-12 Previously, The Great Todd offered: >Common sense -- a quality distinctly lacking in the UFO field -- >_should_ tell us the documents are fakes until proven otherwise. >The manner in which each and every one of the documents has >surfaced itself makes them suspect. <snip> >Kaeser notes that some of the documents "have been shown to be >cut-and-paste jobs that took pieces of real documents and >combined them with faked text, while the veracity of others >remains unclear." >Unclear? Leaving aside the issues of where and how and through >whom each of the documents surfaced, if one document is shown to >be a cut-and-paste job, shouldn't _all_ of them be assumed to be >cut-and-paste jobs or otherwise manufactured? <snip> >If the MJ-12 "documents" were candy, would you let your children >eat them without knowing exactly where they came from? If you >did let your children eat them, and one of your children died >because one of the pieces of candy was poisoned, would you then >turn around and say, "Well, that doesn't mean they're _all_ >poison," and then let the rest of your kids finish them up? I >think not -- I _pray_ not! >Where is the common sense in Kaeser's position? There is none! Robert, First off, we are not children and do not need to be protected by you or anyone else. If one "piece" proves to be poisoned, we won't eat the others out of stupidity. On the contrary, we'd inspect each and every remaining piece even closer than before to find out what happened and why. But the last thing an intelligent person does is make a blanket assumption about the many based on the results of the few. That sort of thinking is how racism, bigotry and stereotyping achieves dominance. More to the point, people that think that way are easy targets for governmental disinformation campaigns and propaganda. As a researcher of Government documents you, of all people, should know that the US Government has a long history of disinformation campaigns about everything under the sun that they want to keep secret. Why should the topic of UFO's be any different? If you believe there are UFO's that the government knows about and has documentation on, would it not make sense that they'd implement a variety of methods to confuse the issue? Certainly, faking documentation would be child's play and would have the very effect that the new "MJ-12" documents seem to be having. Of course, what this means is that some would appear to be fake while others would withstand closer scrutiny. I agree with you that they should all be assumed fake until proven otherwise. But, if I understand you correctly, you would prefer them _all_ to be _declared_ fake and that further research be discontinued. Why? What does it hurt to take a closer look? If they're all fake, then we'll find out. If not, then we'll find that out, too. Why throw out the baby with the bath water if there's something to be learned here? If even one MJ-12 document is proven to be valid, don't you think it's worth the efforts of Mr. Friedman and others? And let's be clear about this, Robert; these are Stan's efforts, not yours. You take no risk for his efforts; you are robbed of no glory. If Stan fails, he fails on his own. If he is successful, all of us (including you) benefit. What's your beef? More importantly, where's your own common sense? Roger Evans
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 12 Re: What If? From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com> Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 18:29:56 +0000 Fwd Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 12:58:07 -0500 Subject: Re: What If? >From: Kathleen Andersen <KAnder6444@aol.com> >Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 16:38:02 EST >Fwd Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 15:05:13 -0500 >Subject: Re: What If? Previously, Kathleen had offered: >Do many people ever wonder that perhaps we aren't told things >for a reason? Do we ever wonder how life would change? <snip> >How would they >react if the goverment came right out on the news tonight and >said "oh yes they are here, we don't know if they are good or >bad or what their intention is but they are here". <snip> >If I was the good catholic that I was raised, I would be >knocking on the door of my local church and telling the priest >that his last sermon about collecting more money for the parish >or how poor Rome is would be his last, for I would have no >concern about organized religion. >If I was an average person I might be very upset that they did >not tell us sooner. <snip> >Am I the only one that realizes that life as we know it might >change if we knew the truth? Does anyone think ahead? Hi, Kathleen. It's funny that you mentioned being the "good Catholic". Hundreds of years ago, the Roman Catholic church practiced the very form of disinformation you mention above. Practicing scientists were publicly censured while unproven paganistic beliefs about the Earth being the center of the universe were declared as "fact". The Church was scared of change because change would mean losing control of the masses. I'm afraid that not much has changed. Even as we speak, there is a struggle between Government and Church over control of the masses; how we think, what we believe. Everyone from fundamentalists to extreme liberals are touting that "their way" is the "right" way. Would life change if we knew the "truth" about ET life? Of course! The problem is that those in power would risk losing everything if the truth were known while our lives might possibly improve as a result of this knowledge. Change is inevitable, but not always bad. I say let's know the truth about ET's and let the chips fall where they may! With the exception of my wife and beautiful baby girl, my life couldn't suck any more than it already does. Bring on the aliens! <G> Later, Roger Evans
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 12 Re: Abductions and Trauma From: Sean Liddle <gortrix@kos.net> Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 18:23:19 -0600 Fwd Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 13:05:06 -0500 Subject: Re: Abductions and Trauma >From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: Abductions and Trauma >Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 23:24:47 -0500 >>From time to time I've read comments here from abduction >skeptics, who more or less deride abduction researchers for, >supposedly, not knowing enough about psychology. There's often a >superior tone in these comments, as if abduction researchers >were so clearly ignorant that anybody with a little basic >knowledge could see right through them. Okay, you touched a nerve :) I have been a believer in extraterrestrial visitations to earth for most of my coherent life (since I was about 15). I have seen objects that include lights in the night sky and what appeared to be non-terrestrial craft. I have met many, many people who have seen the same (or, claimed to). There is no doubt in my mind as to the existance of other worldly lifeforms or their occasional presence among us. I also do not doubt that humans, elephants, emus, platupi, apes and stink-bugs have all been collected, examined and, yes, dissected by these visitors. We have done the same when exploring new lands, and areas of the earth (antarctica, the ocean floor, etc, et-bloody-cerera..) What confounds me is the plethora of people claming to have been abducted and having full memory of the event. If our government can kidnap someone, mess with their mind through use of drugs and physical means. Then Brainwash them in such a way as to prevent knowledge of the events, then a much superior race capable of intersteller travel could do the same. Secondly, there is no such animal as a "hypnotic trance". Bull-pucky as my great grandfather would have said. No-one can be "hypnotized" without wanting to be, and it is easy to fake. I think we should be concentrating our efforts on collecting and analysing sightings. Compiling data and making a case for more funding to efforts like SETI is a little more important than worrying about Billy-Bobs reputed Anal Probing. Sean Liddle
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 12 Tim Good On IRC Chat - UKUFONW 02-23-99 From: United Kingdom UFO Network <ufo@holodeck.demon.co.uk> Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 23:06:35 -0000 Fwd Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 13:11:56 -0500 Subject: Tim Good On IRC Chat - UKUFONW 02-23-99 UNITED KINGDOM UFO NETWORK Tuesday 23rd February 1999 6.30pm - 8.00pm United Kingdom UFO Network special guest: T I M O T H Y G O O D Timothy Good will be answering your questions live in a moderated meeting starting at 6.30pm (UK time) Tuesday 23rd February 1999. This is a very rare occasion for Timothy Good to appear live online. Don't miss this opportunity to visit and ask those all important questions. -- BIOGRAPHY -- Timothy Good is one of the premier UFO researchers in the world. He has been a UFO researcher for over twenty years and during that time has uncovered research which he feels proves the existence of UFOs and more importantly that the Earth is being visited regularly by extra terrestrials. His research suggests that there is a worldwide cover-up of UFO's perpetrated by the intelligence communities of virtually every government on Earth. Mr Good has created the most comprehensive research on the UFO phenomena by tracing reports all the way back to the early 1930's. Timothy Good is a respected British broadcaster and lecturer. He is a professional violinist for the London Symphony Orchestra and was elected to the Royal Society of Musicians in 1980. Mr. Good has written a large number of books on the UFO phenomena: The UFO Report Alien Update Alien Contact: Top-Secret UFO Files Revealed Alien Liaison: The Ultimate Secret Above Top Secret-The Worldwide UFO Cover-Up Beyond Top Secret Alien Base (his latest book now available in paper back) --- If you are using one of the dedicated IRC programs such as the excellent MIRC available free from: http://www.mirc.co.uk/ You can visit us by connecting to one of the: Chatnet servers and joining channel #UFO --- To find the equivalent time of the meeting in your part of the world point your web browser at: http://www.worldtimezone.com/ The web site will display a map of the world with 'updated live' times. After finding the United Kingdom time you will be able to work out (in hours and minutes) the time difference between our two countries. Remembering that this IRC meeting begins at 6.30pm you should now be able to work out the equivalent time in your country. --- We look forward to seeing you there. -------------------------------- United Kingdom UFO Network ufo@holodeck.demon.co.uk http://www.holodeck.demon.co.uk/ --------------------------------
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 12 Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality From: Jeff King <Boroimhe@aol.com> Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 23:32:06 EST Fwd Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 13:24:50 -0500 Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net> >Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 22:21:51 -0500 >Fwd Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 08:20:44 -0500 >Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality Greetings to the List, >Just as I think that social scientists ought to be involved in >debates about media influence, I think we need physical >scientists for this one. I'd also note that --as far as I know >-- in serious scientific work, it wouldn't be easy to falsify >any hypothesis as big as this one. >Take the Big Bang theory. I believe it rests on many smaller >hypotheses, which would be easier to confirm or falsify than >the Big Bang theory itself. First, alien abduction claims are hardly so big a theory as the Big Bang theory. The latter is an attempt to describe the entire universe, while the former involves theories about the interaction of a few selected inhabitants on one planet and their interactions with the inhabitants of another. The magnitude of the falsification problem is, therefore, significantly less. I would also describe the support for the Big Bang theory slightly differently than you do. I'd say it is supported by specific predictions about the physical nature of the universe that are later shown to be correct (such as an abundance ratio of hydrogen to helium consistent with the predicted rate of expansion and other things I really don't fully understand). So, one way to falsify alien abduction claims is to test how well they predict physically testable matters. Two examples are missing fetus claims and alien implants. If truly anomalous terminations of pregnancies are happening we should be able to document the fact. If alien artifacts are being left in people's bodies, we should be able to recover them and test them to prove extraterrestrial manufacture. So far, every artifact recovered and properly tested has been mundane and every properly investigated missing fetus claim has been shown to have no independent corroboration or an earthly cause. With the caveat that too few proper investigations of these matters have been made, to date, these testable predictions from alien abduction claims have been falsified. >Still, I'll take a shot. If a reasonably large number of abductees >were constantly monitored by electronic and other instruments (I'm >not going to try to specify what those instruments should be; it's >not my field), and nothing showed up, I'd be much less inclined to > believe that abductions are real. I agree that this is a reasonable proposal, and I can even think of some appropriate equipment for monitoring. As you are no doubt aware, however, if nothing shows up, supporters of the alien abduction hypothesiswill just claim the aliens hid their presence, which is precisely what has occurred when limited attempts at video monitoring have been made. This is the main reason the alien abduction hypothesis is unfalsifiable,all objections have been (and I predict will be) answered with the awesome technological power and covert nature of the aliens. >In an attempt to provide some answer slightly more objective than >my own opinions, I asked a group of abductees to give me their views >on what the central core of the phenomenon is to them. I'll shortly >report what they answered. [snip] >I'm trying to describe the core of the experience, not some analytical >core of the phenomenon. Obviously, exactly what this core would be is a >matter of opinion. It'll be interesting to see what your abductee poll reveals. The problem is, however, that from the literature alone we can see a wide variance in the reported experiences of abductees, though modern reports (arguably) show more homogeneity. So you're quite right that any hypothetical "core" experience will be highly subjective. Just look at Bullard's categorizations in Measure of a Mystery. Under the element of capture he includes people physically carried into a craft and people who begin their experience through some sort of astral projection or out of body experience. Bullard then shows the psychic cases as following the same ordering principal as the cases that include a more typical example of capture. I think a strong argument can be made that the psychic cases don't really involve a capture at all. So, is capture a core element of alien abduction or not? That's why I posited that the core elements that can be agreed upon are quite few and likely to be somewhat broad. If that is the case, there are indeed examples of the core elements in old science fiction tales. And no, I don't know exactly what that tells us, if true. Regards,
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 12 Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality From: Jeff King <Boroimhe@aol.com> Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 23:34:08 EST Fwd Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 13:28:16 -0500 Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net> >Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 21:29:13 -0500 >Fwd Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 07:47:59 -0500 >Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality Ibid >Sometimes, I think, we get a little carried away by data we >bring in from outside ufology. We might put too much weight on >it. (For more on this, see my post on trauma.) You don't, for >instance, find people saying police shouldn't question crime >victims, just because stress might make their testimony >unreliable. The police, we assume, know how to take that into >account. Except many questions have been raised about whether police are very good at handling the problems with witnesses' claims. Just ask your friends in Wenatchee Washington. This also ignores the different societal needs involved in the arenas of criminal justice and science. The criminal justice system's main purpose is to protect us from our neighbors' (and our neighbors from our) worst instincts. To do so effectively, the system has to move rapidly (or at least try to). This forces the criminal justice system to accept significant compromises in its evidence gathering mechanisms. The reason eyewitness testimony is so central is because criminal jurisprudence developed at a time when that was all there really was. The choice then was to accept eyewitness testimony or give up on ever convicting any criminal and accept the inevitable social chaos. The problem of unreliability in eyewitness testimony has always been recognized, however, and procedural safeguards such as the placement of the burden of proof and persuasion, corroboration of confessions and accomplice testimony and cross-examination were developed to help minimize concerns regarding eyewitness testimony, as well as to protect us from the depredations of the state. Note also how the advent of more reliable circumstantial evidence (fingerprints, ballistics and genotyping, for example) has caused courts to start treating it as the more important type of evidence. Indeed, if you review capital punishment appellate decisions, you'll find many courts so reluctant to uphold a death sentence based on eyewitness testimony alone, some DAs of my acquaintance describe it as an unofficial third factor in the punishment stage of the bifurcated trial. Science, on the other hand, is a system that aspires to a higher level of reliability in its conclusions and, therefore, in the evidence it accepts. This, of course, means many hypothesis and theories (even favored ones) languish in the gray pile until adequate means of proving them are available. For example, for decades (if not longer) most astronomers were fully comfortable with the idea of extra-solar planets. Indeed, many took it as a given. Nevertheless, early claims about the discovery of such planets were rejected because the same astronomers understood that the then available instrumentation was inadequate to detect such planets. In recent years, however, discoveries of other planets have been accepted since now the instrumentation available to astronomers is sensitive enough to detect signs of their existence, such as a perturbations in a star's orbit. Now, if this had been a criminal law question, the earlier claims may have stood up because of the lower threshold for acceptable evidence. >At the very least, we should ask whether abduction >investigators do, rather than questioning the testimony entirely. I agree, but a true test requires complete access to tapes (preferably)or the notes of _every_ interrogation session conducted by an abduction investigator, a precaution some courts are now demanding in child sexual abuse cases. "Complete" means letting evaluators from across the spectrum, not just those sympathetic to the investigator's views. I'm not terribly confidant such a review is likely, considering one of the most prominent investigators reportedly refuses to permit his tapes to be used in MUFON's transcription project. I think it is reasonable to draw some preliminary conclusions about abduction investigators' handling of eyewitness testimony based on what is publicly available. To return to the claims of missing fetuses (Man!-you'd think I'd gone rabidly pro-life the way I keep bringing this up), as I said before, no such claim has been properly documented and authenticated. Richard Neal explained this fact at MIT (which, BTW, is what I think His Grace meant by the "myth being demolished at the MIT conference") and described how such a claim could be properly documented. Have any abduction investigators gone back to document past claims, or followed up properly on any new claims? The answer, based on the public record, is-no. Now, go back to your police example. I go to New York's finest and say "I just saw Dennis Stacy shoot and kill Greg Sandow. Stacy was shouting something about long-haired Yankee types." Any reasonable cop is going to first check and see if you are in fact dead. When he finds you sitting alive and well at your computer (enjoying the guilty pleasure of listening to They Don't Make Jews Like Jesus Anymore) he closes the case and goes on to bigger and better mysteries. The cop has showed that he is sensitive to the unreliability of witnesses' claims. At least with respect to missing fetus claims, abduction investigators have shown they aren't. Regards,
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 12 Re: The Sheffield Incident From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 22:24:53 -0500 Fwd Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 22:24:53 -0500 Subject: Re: The Sheffield Incident From: Max Burns <AlienHype@aol.com> Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 03:31:33 EST To: Updates@globalserve.net Subject: Re: The Sheffield Incident >From: Martin Jeffrey <mbkc67@dial.pipex.com> >Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 18:14:04 -0000 >Fwd Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 02:27:14 -0500 >Subject: Re: The Sheffield Incident >Hello everybody. >I'm Martin Jeffrey and I investigated the Howden Moors Incident >along with David Clarke and Max Burns. >Both investigators gave me unique access to their files and I >interviewed every witness involved with the case. >I have spoken to "Emma Maidenhead" who is Max's main witness and >I have seen the "evidence" relating to the embarrassing episode >around Jonathan Dagenhart. What you mean where David is prooved to be lying not "the embarrassing episode" Yes Martin and you were asked by myself not to hand over any more of my research to David Clark, but you did, why did you do this? You have broke a confidence, and cannot be trusted. >"This case was nothing more than a mix of coincidence and >hysteria inadvertantly caused by the police and Sheffield media. >The RAF, broke the sound barrier over Sheffield and the Howden >Moors twice and this coincided with sightings of a low flying >aircraft." You have been brain washed if this is what you now believe as your stance was the total oposoite at one stage! Pray tell are you now the area investigator for Bufora? >But after reading Max Burn's Sheffield Incident and reading >some of the utter crap I was forced to investigate this >incident again. No one forced you to do anything, well perhaps you were forced. May I remind you that it was you who supplied the information regarding Leicester Arkwright/Wainwright, was this your crap? >Again, I have found nothing more other than more evidence of an >over ambious investigator, tight lipped RAF officials and the >excellent sight that for the first time people around the world >have witnessed a UFO case twist and turn and develop from "just >a mundane case" into a fully fledged thorough investigation. You mean a fully fledged debunking exercise don't you? >This case can no longer go on. Everybody has been interviewed. >All aspects have been covered and all the characters/players are >on display. This case will go on as long as it goes on, or do you wish to impose time limits on other cases as well? >This is why I have collaborated with David Clarke, >(who once I did call the enemy!!) Am I the enenmy now? Are you the enemy now? Is it line in the sand time now? >To write The Howden Moors >Incident. It is a full concise version of events that everyone >should buy.(Well I would say that!!) Is this what this is all about, stealing another researchers work to write it up for a book? >Also checkout David's >lecture at the Southport conference, 'ave a word with Tim >Matthews and get a ticket. Sleeping with the enemy, that was a good film... May I remind you I am not the enemy... Oh and yes as you have not contacted since you betrayed my confidence. For your information I have checked and if an Army or RAF base in the uk has radar of communcations, then there will be Royal Signals at that base, as the main function of the Signals is as listed above... >I must apologise if this email sounds like a series of >soundbites but I am currently busy and thought you should know >my feelings.. You should apoligise for the sneaky back door manner in which you obtained the last data that Mr Clark did not have, even when I asked you on the phone if you were doing this for David you replied you were carrying out the investigation independantly of either David or myself. On that basis I gave you everything that I had on the case and even was always at the other end of the phone to answer any questions. I hope that you are proud of you actions and behaviour, I do have our conversation on tape when I asked you not to give my research to David Clark, and you replied you would not. You Lied to me, when all I wanted to do was share my research with you. I am saddened, what did they offer you? Martin are you Italian? They could not decide who's side they were on during the war and kept changing sides, still at least they announced it when they had changed sides. Still I can sleep at night. Can you? Max Burns \_______________________________________________/ UFO UpDates - Toronto - updates@globalserve.net A UFO & Related Phenomena E-Mail List operated by Errol Bruce-Knapp - 416-691-0716 UFO UpDates Archives are available at: http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates 'Strange Days...Indeed' - available live via Real Audio 11:00pm EST, Sunday nights at:
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 12 Re: Robert Todd On MJ-12 From: Josh Goldstein <clearlt@pacbell.net> Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 02:03:45 -0800 Fwd Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 22:35:47 -0500 Subject: Re: Robert Todd On MJ-12 >From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: Re: Robert Todd On MJ-12 >Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 09:22:41 -0400 >>Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 04:43:55 -0800 >>From: Josh Goldstein <clearlt@pacbell.net> >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >>Subject: Re: Robert Todd On MJ-12 <snip> >I gather that Josh thinks I am not a bona fide researcher >despite my publications in scientific journals and in UFO >journals. I have a list of about 100 publications (nuclear, pop, >and UFO) for those who think I am not. >Suspicions in the absence of knowledge shouldn't carry much >weight. Unlike many armchair theorists, I demonstratd a >willingness to seek witnesses, to visit Archives seeking truth >and some understanding of the documents of the time. My "Final >Report of Operation Majestic 12" was a Fund bestseller and >includes many corroborative documents and the list of reasons >for saying the documents are genuine. If my son needed brain >surgery, I wouldn't take him to a foot doctor just because brain >surgeons are biased. Yes, I was biased for truth, for putting >things in my gray basket rather than pronouncing judgements >without investigation. >>Alfred Lehmberg, Lately things have been peaceful on UpDates >>following the last nasty brouhaha. I am interested in your >>opinions - when presented in an intelligent and civil manner. I >>wish you could maintain that. Your response to Mr. Todd's above >>post was an attack characterized by name calling that makes me >>once again wonder about your character. I'm not saying this to >>support Mr. Todd. I just feel that to go that low is to call >>your own credibility into question. It also makes me wonder >>about how you serve the case of John Ford if you don't adhere to >>a civil standard to make your points. >>Josh Goldstein >It seems strange indeed that Josh accuses Alfred of name >calling, but accuses me of not being bonafide, of being a party >to forgery and accepts equally false name calling charges from >Todd. I gather that the fact that Todd has no scientific >training, has never been to an archive, has never held a >security clearance, has never published an article in a >scientific journal, never held a professional job, all >strengthen his claims!! >I always had to satisfy my professors, employers, reviewers of >journal submissions, etc. Bob has never had to satisfy anybody >but himself. I guess that certainly means that everything he >says is true and everything I say is a lie. >Let me put it bluntly. >I have never ever faked a document. >Anybody who says I have or helped somebody else do so is a >liar. >Stan Friedman Stanton, I never implied that you were not a bona fide researcher. Perhaps I should have stated...to another bona fide researcher outside the loop...rather than a bona fide researcher outside the loop. I never suspected you of having anything to do with the possibility of forging papers. That was Mr.Todd's statement. I was supporting that at one time you were associated in research with Mr. Moore and Mr. Shandera in investigating Roswell. What I meant by another researcher was someone else who had never been associated with anyone related to that document. Someone else who also was a bonafide researcher in government documents, since Moore's credibility is suspect and Shandera was his associate. I knew Bill Moore and Jaime Shandera before Moore made his confession. Afterwards I suspected the source of the MJ12 documents as to be a possible disinformation ploy manufactured by the OSI. I have never suspected that Moore, Shandera or yourself created fake documents. When your book was published in 1996 I read it with great interest. Much of your research seemed tenable. I have never come to a final conclusion about those documents being authentic or not. That has a lot to do with the paucity of supporting documents in other records. I don't yet feel it is a closed case. I will take a fresh look at your book to reacquaint myself with your results. I have always felt you to be a bonafide researcher. What you interpreted as my name calling was a misunderstanding. I did not quote Mr. Lehmberg's post in my original post because his name calling was mean ranting. If you want to refresh your memory, read it and I think you will agree. In past disagreements on this forum he acted in ways not befitting an intelligent adult. (disputing the message by personally attacking the messenger). Since I respect your background and your research abilities I would like to ask you a question. Based on your previous background in developing nuclear engines have you any reason to think that the Cash-Landrum case had anything to do with Government black nuclear engine development after you left that work? I always wondered if that might have been a possibility but could not imagine something like that being tested anywhere near populations. Josh Goldstein
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 12 UFO Crash In Israel? From: Joseph Trainor <Masinaigan@aol.com> Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 07:23:49 EST Fwd Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 22:41:09 -0500 Subject: UFO Crash In Israel? Dear List Members: Here's a report I received from a UFO Roundup reader. Has anyone seen anything about this "UFO crash" on their local news? Thanks for your time. Joseph Trainor Editor UFO ROUNDUP ----- From: "moonmother" <moonmother@email.msn.com> To: <Masinaigan@aol.com> Subject: UFO crash in Israel??? Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 21:08:28 -0500 Dear One, My son just called from Albuquerque, New Mexico stating that KOB TV had announced on the news that a UFO had crashed in Israel. This is the same TV station that announced the Roswell crash. Shortly after, the story was grounded. We haven't heard anything. Do you have any information on this. I know Israel has seen a lot of UFO activity lately. You may wish to check into this. Thank you for your time. Sincerely, Patricia Golemon
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 13 Re: 8/27/96 MJ-12 Document From: Josh Goldstein <clearlt@pacbell.net> Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 04:56:50 -0800 Fwd Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 08:21:27 -0500 Subject: Re: 8/27/96 MJ-12 Document >From: Robert Todd <Bohica449@aol.com> >Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 00:34:15 EST >To: updates@globalserve.net >Subject: Re: 8/27/96 MJ-12 Document >>From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net> >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >>Subject: Re: 8/27/96 Re: MJ-12 Document >>Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 15:29:51 -0400 >>>From: Robert Todd <Bohica449@aol.com> >>>Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 00:32:25 EST >>>To: updates@globalserve.net >>>Subject: Re: 8/27/96 Re: MJ-12 Document >>>>From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net> >>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >>>>Subject: Re: 8/27/96 Re: MJ-12 Document >>>>Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 17:33:43 -0400 >>>>>Date: Tue, 02 Feb 1999 14:42:01 -0800 >>>>>From: Ed Stewart <ufoindex@jps.net> >>>>>To: updates@globalserve.net >>>>>Subject: 8/27/96 Re: MJ-12 Document >>><snip> >>>Friedman wrote: >>>>Let us get facts straight: >>>Ha! Fat chance! >>>>1. I have never claimed to have had a TOP SECRET CLearance >>>>although I did have a Q which gave me access to Secret >>>>Restricted Data. >>>On page 138 of 'Crash at Corona', Friedman claims: >>>"Both authors handled materials classified top secret >>>and higher, Friedman when in the nuclear industry and >>>Berliner when in the air force." >>>The logical inference is that Friedman had a TS clearance. >>>Otherwise, he wouldn't have been authorized to 'handle' "top >>>secret and higher" materials. Not only does Friedman infer that >>>he had a TS clearance, he also infers that he had clearance for >>>Top Secret/code word materials (as in 'higher' than TS). >>><snip> >>The quoted words are indeed in the book. I repeat I have never >>had or told anybody I had a TS clearance. There was quite an >>argument with Richard Boylan about this. I have of course >>handled a great deal of formerly TS materials in my many >>archival visits. Bob ought to try a visit. >Oh, so you mean you _DIDN'T_ handle "materials classified top >secret and higher... when in the nuclear industry" as you >claimed in your book? >>>>3. I published in my "Final Report on Operation Majestic 12" 5 >>>>formerly TS documents which did not have Control numbers, >>>>whether Ed Stewart likes it or not. >>>None of those five documents originated from the same place as >>>the Cutler-Twining memo; that is, none of those five documents >>>was found among the TS records in Record Group 341 (Air Force >>>Headquarters). >>It is not irrelevant. There are many Air Force documents that >>Bob might think belong in RG 341, but aren't there whether he >>likes it or not. >I _never_ said the documents he found at the Library of Congress >belonged in RG 341. This is a complete figment of Friedman's >imagination. But I suspect he knows that, and is setting up >this straw man to distract readers away from his deceptions. >Again, with respect to TS control numbers, the documents he >and his other "research team" members found at the Library of >Congress, _years_ before the fakes showed up, most certainly >are NOT relevant to whether or not there should have been a TS >control number on the Cutler-Twining memo Moore/Shandera >'found' in RG 341. >If Moore or Shandera did not plant the Cutler-Twining memo in >the Archives, it would have been there legitimately, and the Air >Force _would_ have assigned a TS control number to it. Yet it >has no such control number, which clearly suggests that Moore or >Shandera planted the document in the files, since even Friedman >acknowledges that Moore and Shandera were the first researchers >to examine the files following declassificaion reviews by both >Air Force _and_ National Archives personnel, reviews which >failed to turn up the Cutler-Twining memo. >Even Friedman has acknowledged that the Cutler-Twining memo was >planted in the Archives. But he contends the document was >planted by somebody on the Air Force declassification team, >whereas I contend the most likely suspects are Moore and >Shandera. >Whether or not the documents the Moore-Shandera-Friedman >"research team" found at the Library of Congress have TS control >numbers has _nothing_ whatever to do with the absence of such a >number on the Cutler-Twining memo, which Moore/Shandera claim >was 'found' in RG 341 -- _not_ in the Library of Congress. >Friedman is throwing up a smoke screen in a desperate attempt to >make himself appear to be right, when in fact he couldn't be >more wrong. He is clouding the issue with utter nonsense, which >is a clear indication of deception on his part. >>For example, the Library of Congress Manuscript >>Division in Washington has the papers of the first three Chiefs >>of Staff of the USAF namely Carl Spaatz, Hoyt Vandenberg (MJ-12 >>member), Nathan F. Twining (MJ-12 member.). Much of this >>material was classified TOP SECRET or Secret. Gradually more and >>more has been declassified. The amounts are not really trivial. >>For example, in Twining's case there were about 120 Archive >>Boxes. One of these ,about Box number 120, had folders labelled >>TOP SECRET and EYES ONLY. In one of these there were two memos >>from Robert Cutler, Special Assistant to the President. One is >>TOP SECRET EYES ONLY dated July 13, l953.and is a "Memorandum >>for General Twining" The other is TOP SECRET and is "Memorandum >>for the Secretary of Defense" dated June 25, l953. Distribution >>"Wilson 2; Nash 2, Lay 1; Koons 1; President's file 1;" >Once again, this nonsense simply isn't relevant to the absence >of a TS control number on a document supposedly 'found' in RG >341. Bob, I think you and Stanton Friedman were having a valid debate over the evidence. However, I feel in the rest of your post you went too far in making unproven allegations and character smears. I feel your statements below discredited much of your efforts by getting down to a third person personal attack. I'm not trying to play "Mr. Judge" here but feel that after having to read through posters' past catfights on UpDates we could debate vociferously without resorting to cheap shots. >Once again, it is little more than a desperate attempt on >Friedman's part to hide his deception. Since he seems to be big >on labeling people with "mottoes," his seems to be, 'If you >can't dazzle 'em with brilliance, baffle 'em with bullshit.' >He's trying his best to baffle readers with irrelevant bullshit, >hoping they won't catch on to his deceptions. >>The Interesting thing is that neither memo has a control number >>on it. Furthermore, the Cutler Twining Memo (July 14, l954)is >>from Robert Cutler to General Twining. It also like the other 2 >>memos from the same source and in the same file has no control >>number. The source is Robert Cutler at the White House NOT RG >>341.Because some USAF HQ files are in RG 341 does NOT mean all >>are. >More attempts to baffle. His remarks are attempts to distract >readers away from the real issues. >>>Friedman's argument is irrelevant, and deliberately misleading. >>>>4. Judging by the Cutler Twining Memo, we are dealing with a >>>>NSC/MJ-12 Special Studies Group. This is not part of the >>>>Department of Defense. The NSC serves the President. >>>It doesn't matter. It's where the record allegedly was 'found' >>>by Bill Moore and/or Jaime Shandera that counts. If one or the >>>other didn't plant it in the Archives, it would have had a TS >>>control number assigned to it. >>This statement is FALSE. There are TS documents relating to >>General Twining in an official classified document repository >>(Library of Congress Manuscript Division for one) without TS >>Control numbers and whose provenance is certain. I published >>some. Cutler's office was at the White House NOT in the >>Pentagon. >This statement most certainly is _not_ false! >Moore/Shandera claim to have 'found' the Cutler-Twining memo in >one of the entries in RG 341 that contains top secret materials. >The documents in the entry in which the document supposedly was >'found' are filed by TS control number -- not by title, not by >date, not by subject -- just TS control number. >The _only_ way to access the documents is through the TS control >numbers. If Moore or Shandera didn't plant the document in the >file and then feign 'discovery', that is, if the document really >was in the RG 341 entry legitimately, the Air Force would have >assigned a TS control number to the Cutler-Twining memo long >before it was turned over to the Archives, and the document >would display that TS control number now. >The fact that it does not show a TS control number is just one >of a long list of reasons to believe the document was planted in >the Archives, a conclusion to which even Friedman subscribes. >Whether or not TS control numbers were used on the records at >the Library of Congress is _completely_irrelevant_ to any >discussion of the use of TS control numbers in the RG 341 >materials, and Friedman _has_ to know it is irrelevant, yet he >pushes this bogus 'explanation' almost as much as he pushes the >bogus MJ-12 documents. >>>The number would have been >>>assigned by the Air Force, not the NSC or White House. Of >>>course, Friedman contends somebody on the Air Force >>>declassification team planted the memo in the Archives for >>>Moore/Shandera to find. Yeah, right. It doesn't seem to matter >>>to Friedman that the records in question were reviewed for >>>declassification by Air Force _and_ National Archives personnel >>>both, and at no time did the memo surface -- and it would have >>>surfaced because NSC materials require special handling. And, >>>by Friedman's own admission, Moore and Shandera were the first >>>researchers to review these records following declassification >>>review. How odd. >>>Just more of Friedman's _many_ misrepresentations. >>One thing is for sure, If one didn't go looking, the memo would >>not have been fund. But Bob, to the best of my knowledge, has >>never been to any archive even though, based in Belmont, >>Pennsylvania, near Philadelphia, he is much closer to >>Washington, DC, than Bill and Jamie in California or me up here >>in New Brunswick. Bob, of course, has left out the post cards >>that led Bill and Jaime to DC and my earlier visit during which >>I found out that classification review was being done on some >>entries in Record Group 341. These facts are discussed in my >>final Report on Op. Majestic 12 and in TOP SECRET/MAJIC. Nothing >>like selective choice of data. >Ah, yes, more irrelvant distractions intended to mislead the >reader into believing Friedman knows what he's talking about, >but I don't. >>Furthermore I made a substantial, but unsuccesful, effort to >>determine the identity of the declassification teams which >>handled box 189 within 3 weeks of the death of the last >>survining member of MJ-12 (Jerome Hunsaker) and within 2 weeks >>prior to when Shandera and Moore visited the archives. The >>declassifiers were able to bring in brief cases and were >>certainly in the best position of anybody to plant the CT memo. >>having also had access to whatever box held it in the first >>place. >Yes, but the records also were examined by Archives personnel, >so your theory -- a theory without a shred of credible evidence >to support it -- is just another attempt to distract everybody >away from the persons who likely manufactured the bogus >Cutler-Twining memo, and planted it in the Archives. And I >think Friedman knows full well that Bill Moore is the most >likely suspect, since Moore told Friedman he planned to >manufacture bogus government documents in an ill-fated attempt >to force the government's hand on Roswell, and Friedman found >the plan acceptable. >It isn't clear what role Friedman played in the manufacture of >the bogus documents, beyond furnishing (wittingly or >unwittingly) the names, dates, and places around which the >documents were built. No wonder Friedman was able simply to >reach into his own file cabinets to find documents that >seemingly "confirmed" various aspects of the MJ-12 documents, >even _before_ Friedman was shown copies of the actual MJ-12 >documents themselves! >But it isn't very likely either Bill Moore or Stan Friedman >will confess to their respective roles in the MJ-12 hoax. >>The telephone and the US mail do not provide the same exposure >>to archival material >And yet I know more about government records systems than >Friedman can ever hope to know. Go figure. >>and how varied the format, styles, type >>face etc are in the real world. I recall Phil Klass claiming >>that the NSC used elite type.. on the basis of 9 samples he had >>received in the mail. He paid me $1000. because there were at >>least 10 done in PICA type as he certainly would have noticed if >>he had visited the Ike Library. >Ah, yes, the infamous bet with "debunker" Klass, a stupid bet >at best, but one about which Friedman will never stop boasting. >That bet had nothing to do with me. It is irrelevant, but Friedman >attempts to draw a parallel, thereby suggesting that he is the >brilliant Nuclear Physicist, and I am a wannabe, or soon-to-be, >Phil Klass who doesn't know what he's talking about. But, I >_do_ know what I'm talking about, and, as a result, I know >Friedman is being dishonest -- but that's hardly news. >>I strongly recommend that Bob visit archives. It is an >>enlightening, sometimes time and money consuming experience. >>Stan Friedman >I strongly recommend that Nuclear Physicist Stan Friedman take >two nuclear physics and call me in the morning, 'cause he's >_really_ full of it! >Robert Todd Bob, I don't like to take up bandwith using such long quotes, but I have been trying to make a point. While you may have had valid evidential points, to me you did not have to resort to cheapshots in the third person. I guess I have naively hoped we could stay in decent debates on this list after some past dogfights. I don't know what the truth is in your debate with Mr. Friedman but, in my opinion, cheap shots lessen your efforts. Thanks, Josh Goldstein By the way, what does bohica mean? I never learned that in my California hipster vernacular.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 13 Re: Robert Todd on MJ-12 From: Josh Goldstein <clearlt@pacbell.net> Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 05:27:21 -0800 Fwd Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 08:26:32 -0500 Subject: Re: Robert Todd on MJ-12 >Date: Sun, 07 Feb 1999 07:39:05 -0600 >From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: Re: Robert Todd On MJ-12 >>From: Robert Todd <Bohica449@aol.com> >>Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 21:06:32 EST >>To: updates@globalserve.net >>Subject: Re: Open Letter: MJ-12 & Dr. Wood >>>From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net> >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >>>Subject: Re: Open Letter: MJ-12 & Dr. Wood >>>Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 22:47:55 -0400 >>>>Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 07:22:17 -0800 (PST) >>>>From: Rebecca Keith <xiannekei@yahoo.com> >>>>Subject: Re: Open Letter: MJ-12 & Dr. Wood >>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >>>>>From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net> >>>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >>>>>Subject: Re: Open Letter: MJ-12 & Dr. Wood >>>>>Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 08:45:27 -0400 ><snipped unjustified and maniacal reliance on validity of physical >records _altered_ to fit, and a few words from the lovely lady Rebecca> >>Unfortunately, it is all too easy to create fake documents, >>especially when the perpetrators have the raw materials in their >>own filing cabinets, gathered from years of researching the >>Roswell incident, as in the case of Moore, Shandera, and >>Friedman. >>Robert Todd >Your clumsily veiled, and ham handed assertion that Stanton >Friedman is a liar, cheat, and forger is not born out anywhere >in thirty years of _his_ service, Mr. Todd. He truly questions >the unquestionable while you merely amplify the importance of >the essentially invalid, but contrary, minutia. He would be on >the fronts of the inexplicable, running your gamut of cheap >shots to touch truth on the _face_. You are content to man, >merely, your ultimately _gullible_ and destructive gamut. Don't >call Mr. Friedman a liar in _my_ presence, sir, when he is one >of the few _I_ can turn to for calm rationality regarding the >anomalous _you_ simply deny. The _idea_ that he conspired to >contrive these documents is ludicrous, indigestible, and likely >_covetous_ prattle! Reality does not come in the parsed and >predictable little packets that you would prefer -- pard! The >manipulated records do not contain the virtuous validity that >you assign to them. There _is_ conspiracy. To suggest that there >is _not_ is the TRUE lunacy! BOHICA? Bend over, here it comes >again? In your two color dreams -- Mr. T! Try it and you, >likely, never go back to your electric sheep. Get a new address, >outlook, _and_ worldview! >Lehmberg@snowhill.com Alfred, I should have originally quoted your above post.. I have reread Mr. Todd's post and saw that he made a debate based on his evidence but got below the belt in his third person accusations of Stanton Friedman. However, the purpose of my previous post to you was that I don't think Mr. Friedman needs you to defend him by resorting to character attacks on Mr. Todd. Two wrongs don't make a right. They demean both of you. I don't know why I jumped into the middle of this dogfight. I guess since the last big scrum on UpDates I hoped we could debate Ufology without personal attacks. To me such attacks only lower my opinion of the attackers and detract from the debate. Many researchers never fall to that level on UpDates. Stanton Friedman and Jerry Clark are two good examples. Josh Goldstein
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 13 Re: The Sheffield Incident From: Stephen Mera <s_mera@yahoo.com> Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 06:54:09 -0800 (PST) Fwd Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 08:30:23 -0500 Subject: Re: The Sheffield Incident >From: Martin Jeffrey <mbkc67@dial.pipex.com> >To: <Updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: Re: The Sheffield Incident >Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 18:14:04 -0000 >Hello everybody. >I'm Martin Jeffrey and I investigated the Howden Moors Incident >along with David Clarke and Max Burns. <snip> Surely this can't be the same Martin Jeffrey, that claimed he was moved from the Moor area by military officers where a UFO had crashed and turned the grass blue, along with so called photographs which were to appear in UFO Reality magazine, and which the Editor John King knew nothing about..... Surely not! Steve Mera. ==
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 13 Re: Research Query: Abductees - Any Blind From: Rebecca <xiannekei@yahoo.com> Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 07:03:13 -0800 (PST) Fwd Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 08:32:51 -0500 Subject: Re: Research Query: Abductees - Any Blind >From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com> >Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 13:59:14 EST >To: updates@globalserve.net >Subject: Re: Research Query: Abductees - Any Blind Abductees? <snip> >>I'd like to add to the questioning, if I may. >>Some abductees need to wear glasses to see. Some abductees are >>abducted at night while in bed. Since most people do not wear >>glasses to bed, I wonder what abductees who wear glasses to see >>clearly report about their visual experiences? Or do they put on >>their glasses before being taken away? >Rebecca and Leanne... List and others... >I have always been nearsighted.... every since I was a kid. All >my memories of these events contain the same three or four bits >of information, one of which may interestingly, be related to >eyesight.... these similar bits include the following.... >1) An almost milky white, hazy or foggy type of environment. >2) Everything is out of focus.... blurred. >Since there is no memory of me wearing my glasses, and since >there have been episodes of experiences before and after I was >fitted with glasses, and since the blurred vision is still >there, I must assume I was not wearing any aid to vision. >What may be key is that my vision had not changed from age >(under) 5 thru age 20... and boy am I nearsighted. So without >glasses, everything is blurred at more than five or ten feet. >I was not given glasses until age 10 years old. Therefore the >blurred aspects of these experiences seem to be consistent with >myopia before and after being given eyeglasses. Thanks, this is the kind of information I was interested in, for no particular reason, other than I had never heard or read of an abductee reporting difficulty seeing. Again, thanks! Rebecca
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 13 Re: Research Query: Abductees - Any Blind From: Rebecca <xiannekei@yahoo.com> Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 07:05:36 -0800 (PST) Fwd Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 08:36:11 -0500 Subject: Re: Research Query: Abductees - Any Blind >From: Marc Bell <MARC@wufog.freeserve.co.uk> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: Re: Research Query: Abductees - Any Blind Abductees? >Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 19:10:29 -0000 >I am a short sighted abductee and found this very interesting. >I can personally testify about many of my own experiences in >this respect. Virtually all of my abductions have been >night-time and without my glasses. Both through conscious recall >and regression:- >a) my visual perception is similar to vision without glasses >b) I have no recall of ever putting my glasses on as part of any >experience >c) I have many memories before the age of 7 years and these >involve very clear vision. At the age of 7 years my eye sight >was inpaired by Scarlet Fever (now thankfully a pretty rare >condition in the UK). Marc, Thanks! Just what I was interested in "seeing." <G> I knew there had to be some blurry accounts out there somewhere! Rebecca
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 13 Time Travel From: Philip Mantle - QUEST <pmquest@dial.pipex.com> Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 22:55:26 +0000 Fwd Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 08:38:00 -0500 Subject: Time Travel Dear colleagues, QUEST MAGAZINE in the UK is looking for someone who can write with authority on the question of TIME TRAVEL. If you can help please contact me direct at: pmquest@dial.pipex.com Many thanks, Philip Mantle. QUEST MAGAZINE.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 13 Re: Riddle of The Skies: Part 2 From: Tim Matthews <matthews@zetnet.co.uk> Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 17:59:25 -0000 Fwd Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 08:45:16 -0500 Subject: Re: Riddle of The Skies: Part 2 >Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 15:32:01 -0500 >From: Tony Spurrier <TSpurrier@compuserve.com> >Subject: UFO UpDate: Re: Riddle of The Skies: Part 2 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >>Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 17:54:59 +0000 >>From: Neil Morris <Neil@adm1.ph.man.ac.uk> >>To: updates@globalserve.net >>Subject: Re: Riddle of The Skies: Part 2 >>As the RPIT group already know, I was originaly contacted by >>John Purdie's Union Pictures in late November when they were >>casting round for people to check out the clips they had >>assembled, I declined the offer at the time, when they told me >>how many clips they had and the fact the shows were going out >>"mid Jan 99". >>But I got a pleading phone call 2 weeks ago asking me >>"please...." could I look at just one clip for them, so as it >>was just one clip I said ok, then they told me I only had (by >>the time I got the tape) one evening to come to some >>conclusions. Well they got their conclusions and a set of images >>on a CD too, they must have been impressed as they wanted to >>interview me on the program, I'm glad for the UK UpDater's the >>interview fell through because of lack of time. >>The footage I looked at and commented on was a piece by David >>Spoor's or so the Tape said on the lable, I still have it at >>home. The footage will be in the last program as it was used in >>the trailer at the end of program 2, and I should have been >>interviewed for program 3. I've no idea if they are using the >>enhancements I made but according to JP's PA they seemed >>impressed and could be. >>I've put some of the original frame grabs I used with enhanced >>insets on my web site, some notes are also included. >Neil >It is obvious that David Spoor does have access to equipment to >recreate and/or alter images, due to him admitting altering some >footage for the conference in Nevada last year. I gather from >your website that you feel the footage is genuine, but what >equipment would be needed to create similar images to the same >standard? Btw, did you check the original footage? >Were you aware that some other footage had been tampered with, >and if not does that alter your opinion on the footage you saw? This is all true and indeed Matthew Williams does have a tape-recording of David admitting as much. I've heard the tape by the way. I know all about the Spoor story having been lucky enough to speak with local researchers at length. They seem to be honest. Nevertheless, having been shown most of the 'better' material whilst down at Union Pictures in London I have to say that there are tremendous problems. How, for instance, did Spoor get 'air-to-ground' shots of "UFOs"?? A hot air balloon? A sensor platform......? Incidentally, both John Locker and I agreed within seconds that the supposed "triangle" footage was in fact a film of two RAF Tornados. That is not to say that there isn't some intriguing footage within the Spoor package but it is the case that he has had access to a variety of editing equipment and this concerns me. So does the fact that so many reports of high-strangeness' seem to be occuring within a small local group and the self-referencing nature of these is difficult to penetrate from the point of view an interested investigator. Of course the footage and people's experiences are totally separate.. I also heard a very unusual story about some of David's master-tapes erasing themselves prior to his journey to Nevada...... It really is a strange business! Tim Matthews.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 13 Re: Riddle of The Skies: Part 2 From: Neil Morris <Neil@adm1.ph.man.ac.uk> Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 17:54:22 +0000 Fwd Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 08:48:04 -0500 Subject: Re: Riddle of The Skies: Part 2 >Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 15:32:01 -0500 >From: Tony Spurrier <TSpurrier@compuserve.com> >Subject: UFO UpDate: Re: Riddle of The Skies: Part 2 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >>Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 17:54:59 +0000 >>From: Neil Morris <Neil@adm1.ph.man.ac.uk> >>To: updates@globalserve.net >>Subject: Re: Riddle of The Skies: Part 2 >It is obvious that David Spoor does have access to equipment to >recreate and/or alter images, due to him admitting altering some >footage for the conference in Nevada last year. I gather from >your website that you feel the footage is genuine, but what >equipment would be needed to create similar images to the same >standard? Btw, did you check the original footage? >Were you aware that some other footage had been tampered with, >and if not does that alter your opinion on the footage you saw? >Thanks, Tony Tony, I've not had access to original footage, I was supplied with a dupe of a short segment done by a Soho AV house used by Union. I suspect I was used as part of a "blind" test as this piece of footage was also "looked at" by another party (unknown) who came to similar conclusions as myself. Can I also say I was not aware of David Spoor or his footage before now. As I say on the site, due to the nature of the tape it's impossible to rule out fakery, the data your dealing with is so low resolution there is very little to get a "handle" on in the images. But that said you can look for the obvious as far as possible and even enhanced, the section of video shot in twilight didn't show any striking image density jumps you might expect. That section also has the "triangle" moving off behind a roofline and a tree, I found the move behind the tree most convincing, under a close look leaves and branches are clearly seen with the "triangle" behind. Not at all impossible to do with todays technology, but I suspect to do convincingly it's in an equipment range in excess of Mr Average, so has this chap got friends with a digital AV suite?? I don't know. As for tampered with?, in what way?, I'd like to know. On a related point, as video can so easily be "manufactured" these days could I make a suggestion that people setting out to "get" UFO footage might start taking a compact 35mm camera, even a disposable, It would make cross verification so much easier, and you'd get better pictures to!<g>. Neil. -- * * * * * * * * Neil Morris. /101101101 Virtual Bumper Stickers Inc 10110101010\ Dept of Physics. 1 1 Univ of Manchester 0 0 Schuster Labs. 1 Computer Programmers DO IT with BITS of BYTES 1 Brunswick St. 0 0 Manchester. 1 1 UK. \0101010110010110110010110101101011011110101011010/ G8KOQ E-mail: neil@adm1.ph.man.ac.uk Roswell and Alien Autopsy Archive-> http://adm2.ph.man.ac.uk/ Dave Willetts Home Page-> http://adm2.ph.man.ac.uk/dave_willetts/ Mike Sterling Home Page-> http://adm2.ph.man.ac.uk/mike-s/ Tim Morgan Home Page -> http://adm2.ph.man.ac.uk/tim-m/ * * * * * * * *
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 13 Re: B-CAUS We Worry... From: Brian Cuthbertson <brianc@freeside.fc.net> Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 13:52:12 -0600 (CST) Fwd Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 08:53:14 -0500 Subject: Re: B-CAUS We Worry... >From: Geri & Alfred Webre <Ecotoday@aol.com> >Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 16:47:29 EST >To: updates@globalserve.net >Subject: Re: B-CAUS We Worry... >>To: updates@globalserve.net >>Subject: B-CAUS We Worry... >>From: Roger R. Prokic <rprokic@earthlink.net> >>Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 20:33 >><snip> >>[The headers were incomplete - below is more insight >> into the increasing drift of Peter Gersten --ebk] >><snip> >>In the interests of balance, we found the following CAUS account >>of Joe Firmage's visitation, if accurate, of interest. Maybe >>Peter's just having a mid-life crisis which is still allowed. >>Subj: [CAUS updates] - Personal Contact Experiences (PCEs) >> --Firmage; Gulf Breeze & 2 Others >>Date: 99-02-05 02:58:12 EST >>From: UFOLAWYER1@aol.com >>To: CAUSupdates@caus.org >>Dear CAUS Members: >>Well, its another Friday, and you know what that means...more >>Personal Contact Experiences (PCEs). So sit up, slowly scroll >>down and prepare to meet some of the strange creatures that >>share this reality with us: >>1) Joe Firmage writes: >>One morning, before the SEC papers were due but after I'd >>pressed the "snooze" button on the alarm clock, I feel back to >>sleep. During that time, I was visited by a "remarkable being, >>clothed in brilliant white light," carrying a glowing blue >>sphere, the size of a basketball. This should ring a bell to anyone familiar with Ray Fowler's books on the Andreasson affair. Betty Andreasson Luca gave very similar descriptions of beings with balls of light during her abductions. Ray also wrote that his own father encountered 3 similar beings after being hit by lightning while manning a lighthouse back around the turn of the century. In that case, a sphere of light resulting from a lightning strike reportedly traveled down a cable into the lighthouse and then jumped, lodging itself in his dad's chest. Three Firmage-style beings then appeared, extracted the ball, tossed it among themselves until it shrank and dissipated; then bowed and disappeared. All in a day's work for a lighthouse keeper back then, I guess. No wonder Fowler was interested in the Andreasson case. Onward, -Brian C.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 13 Re: Y2K and UFOs From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 01:44:55 -0500 Fwd Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 08:57:59 -0500 Subject: Re: Y2K and UFOs >Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 18:35:41 +0100 (MET) >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >From: Henny van der Pluijm <hvdp@worldonline.nl> >Subject: Re: Y2K and UFOs <snip> >Here in the Netherlands you simply can't escape from news, >debates, background and commercials about the Y2K problem. >Personally, I decided two years ago not to pay much attention to >the whole thing, because it bored me even back then. >Seems escape was impossible. Hiya Henny, Joe, All, It seems like the only ones that are 'sitting pretty' re: YK2 are those of us who bought Macintosh. <G> Apparently on Jan 1 the only ones who will still be up and running will be a bunch of graphic artists and anyone else who chose Macintosh for its reliability and user friendliness. I don't want to 'rub it in' but someone should have told you that I.B.M. stands for; - I. B.ought M.ac! <lol> Greg Sandow was shocked that I complained about my Mac freezing up on me every few months or so. He informed me that Windows crashes several times a session! You PC/Windows users have my sympathy. If my computer behaved that way I would have introduced it, (or Bill Gates) to a 'Louisville Slugger' long ago. <G> * Note to all 'Powermac' and 'G3' owners; your computer clock is good until the year 2019! Who cares if won't work after that. Do you still plan to own the same computer 20 years from now anyway? Crap, I just turned 50, I may not even be around then! <VBG> Sittin pretty in "Macland" where clocks never stop. Trade in your PC's for G3's before it's too late! **Mr Jobs, I expect a healthy commission for the increase in sales next quarter! <G> John Velez :-D [End of Computer side of discussion on this thread --ebk - DOS Box operator] ________________________________________________ jvif@spacelab.net INTRUDERS FOUNDATION/ABDUCTION INFORMATION CENTER http://www.if-aic.com "Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind." ________________________________________________
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 13 Re: Riddle of The Skies: Part 2 From: neil morris <neil@adm1.ph.man.ac.uk> Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 21:24:08 -0800 Fwd Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 09:10:33 -0500 Subject: Re: Riddle of The Skies: Part 2 >Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 16:07:29 -0500 >From: Tony Spurrier <TSpurrier@compuserve.com> >Subject: Re: Riddle of The Skies: Part 2 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >I have now checked the images and have a query on the following >page: >http://adm2.ph.man.ac.uk/union/rf3comp.gif >Your enhancements show the image to be behind the roof, however, >I have zoomed into the triangle image using Adobe PhotoDeluxe >2.0 and the image appears to be infront of the roof. What >software did you use to enhance the triangle image? >Can someone else check this photo and let us know what they think? Tony, Mmmmm tricky....it does look that way, but remember this is a well contrast stretched image and if you check the original frame you can see the roofline is _well_ out of focus, it doesn't have a _defined_ edge, it's fuzzy, the contrast stretching only makes this fuzzy edge worse, there is no abrupt cut off line, it "fades" out. The object being brighter than the rest of the general background, persists into the fade out area further and so seems to give an overlap, that's how I see it. If you check the last of the "t" shots you can see the leaves and branches of a better focused (further away) tree as the object moves behind it, there is no overlap/fade area in this image. As a side note over fuzzy images, in part of the sequence I spotted a large fuzzy "blob" move accross the left corner of the picture and thought "Whay! what's this then!!", only to realise after spending a few wasted mins looking at it that the "blob" was actually "flapping", a bird of course!<BG>, you can see it in the bottom left of 2comp . I didn't use anything fancy on the images, PhotoShop5, no filters only tailored the levels to pull out the object after converting to greyscale. Best Regards Neil. ------------------------------------------------------- Neil Morris@Home. Email: Neil@adm1.ph.man.ac.uk Web Site: http://adm2.ph.man.ac.uk/ -------------------------------------------------------
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 13 Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@connectmmic.net> Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 16:38:50 -0500 Fwd Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 09:13:15 -0500 Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >Subject: UFO UpDate: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >From: Mark Cashman <mcashman@ix.netcom.com> >Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 11:51:22 -0500 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >>From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@connectmmic.net> >>Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >>Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 18:15:15 -0500 >>We are apparently talking about the same phenomena, except that >>you state that distortions happen under hypnotic recollection of >>an event. while actual evidence suggests that distortions happen >>during "normal" recollection of a stressful event. >>Your post implied that serious distortions of memory apply ONLY >>to the hypnotic state. This is not the case. >I'm afraid you read this into it. I did not refer to >"hypnotically elicited memories", but just "memories". I am 47 years old. In 1999, I am a crack in computing, father of a 6 year-old lady. Please don't spare my intellectual arrogance, and conveniently snip your own words: >>>Finally, we must be cautious, as always, in interpreting the >>>results of hypnosis, especially when hypnosis is used to recall >>>traumatic events. We don't know as much as we should about this >>>subject. Some researchers suggest that traumatic memories are >>>better than normal memories. Others suggest that PTSD can >>>distort traumatic memories. It is certainly possible that at >>>least some of those recalling encounters under hypnosis are >>>distorting or confabulating a less threatening experience to >>>defend their sanity against the real memories. This certainly >>>would represent an inlet for cultural phenomena to stand in >>>place of real events, without invalidating those events. I can take you know. Any List reader will notice that my: >>Your post implied that serious distortions of memory apply ONLY >>to the hypnotic state. This is not the case. Is totally irrelevant and I now understand why Leanne Martin recently mentioned that "Serious distortions will apply with peer pressure". Sorry. This won't happen again. I promise. Serge Salvaille
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 13 Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality From: Steven Kaeser <konsulting@pop.digiweb.com> Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 14:58:14 -0500 Fwd Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 09:15:37 -0500 Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 21:26:18 +0000 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >From: John Rimmer <magonia@magonia.demon.co.uk> >Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality <snip> >>Still, I'll take a shot. If a reasonably large number of >>abductees were constantly monitored by electronic and other >>instruments (I'm not going to try to specify what those >>instruments should be; it's not my field), and nothing showed >>up, I'd be much less inclined to believe that abductions are >>real. >This is something that could be tested scientifically. There are >a number of sleep laboratories attached to universities and >medical institutes in Europe and the US. An experiencer claiming >regular abduction episodes could spend some time at one of these >labs, wired up to whatever electronic gizmos (hope I'm not >getting too technical here) they use. If no abduction >experiences took place during this time, well nothing would be >proved one way or the other, but if the subject reported an >abduction experience which was seen to coincide with periods of >rapid eye movement, increased brainwave activity or whatever, it >should be possible to come to some conclusion about the nature >of the experience. >So all we have to do is find a willing subject and an interested >institution. Easy peasy. John, and List - The UFO Research Coalition has been involved in developing an "Abduction Monitoring Project" for the past several years. Facilities performing research into sleep dysfunction probably aren't trying to monitor the same things, but that's really a judgement call. Details regarding this project have been kept under wraps and it has been far more complicated than most had realized it would be. I would mention that the goal is not to monitor the individual, but their environment. Steve
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 13 Re: Robert Todd On MJ-12 From: Steven Kaeser <konsulting@pop.digiweb.com> Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 15:21:22 -0500 Fwd Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 09:21:12 -0500 Subject: Re: Robert Todd On MJ-12 >From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com> >Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 18:03:54 +0000 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: Robert Todd On MJ-12 >>From: Robert Todd <Bohica449@aol.com> >>Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 20:21:41 EST >>Fwd Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 06:54:10 -0500 >>Subject: Re: Robert Todd On MJ-12 >>>Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 07:26:37 -0500 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >>>From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com> >>>Subject: Re: Robert Todd On MJ-12 >Previously, The Great Todd offered: >>Common sense -- a quality distinctly lacking in the UFO field -- >>_should_ tell us the documents are fakes until proven otherwise. >>The manner in which each and every one of the documents has >>surfaced itself makes them suspect. ><snip> >>Kaeser notes that some of the documents "have been shown to be >>cut-and-paste jobs that took pieces of real documents and >>combined them with faked text, while the veracity of others >>remains unclear." >>Unclear? Leaving aside the issues of where and how and through >>whom each of the documents surfaced, if one document is shown to >>be a cut-and-paste job, shouldn't _all_ of them be assumed to be >>cut-and-paste jobs or otherwise manufactured? ><snip> >>If the MJ-12 "documents" were candy, would you let your children >>eat them without knowing exactly where they came from? If you >>did let your children eat them, and one of your children died >>because one of the pieces of candy was poisoned, would you then >>turn around and say, "Well, that doesn't mean they're _all_ >>poison," and then let the rest of your kids finish them up? I >>think not -- I _pray_ not! >>Where is the common sense in Kaeser's position? There is none! <snip> Robert- My common sense doesn't actually include lumping all the MJ-12 documents together, which is why I wouldn't necessary reject them all because some are proven to be fake. I think your analogy is a bit extreme. Oviously one could test candy to see if it was poisoned or not. and so far as I can tell, no one is going to die if they read these documents. There were no "new" documents in this last group that was publicized by Firmage's web page, only a re-hash of documents that had already been debated ad nauseum. I certainly don't subscribe to the position that any of them are real, but some are simply unproven one way or the other. As far as I'm concerned, they are useless unless some sort of provenance can be found for them. As you've pointed out, they are very suspicious and we should all be very skeptical. Unless new proof develops, I think our time would be better spent researching or debating other issues. Steve
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 13 Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net> Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 17:06:47 -0500 Fwd Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 09:22:57 -0500 Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >From: Jeff King <Boroimhe@aol.com> >Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 23:32:06 EST >To: updates@globalserve.net >Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >First, alien abduction claims are hardly so big a theory as the >Big Bang theory. The latter is an attempt to describe the entire >universe, while the former involves theories about the >interaction of a few selected inhabitants on one planet and >their interactions with the inhabitants of another. The >magnitude of the falsification problem is, therefore, >significantly less. I would also describe the support for the >Big Bang theory slightly differently than you do. I'd say it is >supported by specific predictions about the physical nature of >the universe that are later shown to be correct (such as an >abundance ratio of hydrogen to helium consistent with the >predicted rate of expansion and other things I really don't >fully understand). So, one way to falsify alien abduction claims >is to test how well they predict physically testable matters. >Two examples are missing fetus claims and alien implants. If >truly anomalous terminations of pregnancies are happening we >should be able to document the fact. If alien artifacts are >being left in people's bodies, we should be able to recover them >and test them to prove extraterrestrial manufacture. So far, >every artifact recovered and properly tested has been mundane >and every properly investigated missing fetus claim has been >shown to have no independent corroboration or an earthly cause. >With the caveat that too few proper investigations of these >matters have been made, to date, these testable predictions from >alien abduction claims have been falsified. But implants and missing pregnancies aren't predictions made from the hypothesis that aliens are abducting us. They're additional claims made by abductees and investigators. The abductions could be real, and even so the claims of implants and pregnancies could be wrong. >I agree that this is a reasonable proposal, and I can even think >of some appropriate equipment for monitoring. As you are no >doubt aware, however, if nothing shows up, supporters of the >alien abduction hypothesiswill just claim the aliens hid their >presence, which is precisely what has occurred when limited >attempts at video monitoring have been made. This is the main >reason the alien abduction hypothesis is unfalsifiable,all >objections have been (and I predict will be) answered with the >awesome technological power and covert nature of the aliens. Sigh. So? It's also true that any attempt to predict and/or measure what aliens supposedly do might be completely out to lunch. Compare the discussion of SETI scientists listening for alien radio signals. There's endless debate about whether aliens would or wouldn't use radio, and the question is, until we meet some aliens, completely unresolveable. There _are_ real questions about how to conduct monitoring and what it might or might not show, which doesn't mean we shouldn't do it. I don't see the point, though, of discounting in advance what any party to the debate is likely to say. Greg Sandow
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 13 Re: Abductions and Trauma From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net> Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 17:13:50 -0500 Fwd Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 09:26:18 -0500 Subject: Re: Abductions and Trauma >Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 18:23:19 -0600 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >From: Sean Liddle <gortrix@kos.net> >Subject: Re: Abductions and Trauma >What confounds me is the plethora of people claming to have been >abducted and having full memory of the event. If our government >can kidnap someone, mess with their mind through use of drugs >and physical means. Then Brainwash them in such a way as to >prevent knowledge of the events, then a much superior race >capable of intersteller travel could do the same. Not all that many abductees claim full memory of the event. Nor am I convinced the government can do what you say. >Secondly, there is no such animal as a "hypnotic trance". >Bull-pucky as my great grandfather would have said. No-one can >be "hypnotized" without wanting to be, and it is easy to fake. This is an argument for qualified psychologists to settle. Some of them (a minority) do hold your opinion, most don't. >I think we should be concentrating our efforts on collecting and >analysing sightings. Compiling data and making a case for more >funding to efforts like SETI is a little more important than >worrying about Billy-Bobs reputed Anal Probing. I'm sure the "Billy-Bobs" on this list -- real people, who've suffered from what they believe are real experiences -- will enjoy your opinion. Greg Sandow
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 13 Re: What If? From: Greg St. Pierre <StrmNut@aol.com> Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 21:02:35 EST Fwd Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 09:30:54 -0500 Subject: Re: What If? >From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com> >Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 18:29:56 +0000 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: Re: What If? >snip< >I say let's know the truth about ET's and let the chips fall where >they may! With the exception of my wife and beautiful baby girl, >my life couldn't suck any more than it already does. Bring on the >aliens! <G> Hey roger, One must consider the possibility that the revelation of such knowledge could genuinely put your beloveds (and mine) in real danger from a variety of sources. Most of the time, I want desperately to know it all. Once in a while though, that deep down voice says "Be careful what you wish for...." Greg
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 13 KAPRA - Ontario, Canada From: Sean Liddle <gortrix@kos.net> Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 21:51:58 -0600 Fwd Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 09:39:12 -0500 Subject: KAPRA - Ontario, Canada Greetings everyone. Well, I am sure the vast majority of you have no clue who I am or what KAPRA is. Let me enlighten you. My name is Sean Robert Liddle, I am a 31.75 year old human male who currently resides in the Metropolis of Kingston, Ontario. I was the former founder and president of the Quinte Aerial Phenomenon Research Association which folded a number of years ago for reasons I won't go into here (just leave it to say do not form partnerships with persons you went to high school with for that reason alone!!). I have now reformed the group in the Kingston area and have changed the name to protect ME. :) I work in the field of consulting engineering and therefore have that good old "prove it" science background to make me skeptical occationally, but I assure you, I am a believer and wish only to gain proof to bring others along to our side. If anyone would like to contact me about sightings etc in the Oshawa to Cornwall area, please feel free to email me at: gortrix@kos.net Thanks all, and to quote Jack Horkheimer, "keep looking up"! Sean Liddle KAPRA (pronounced the same as QAPRA strangely enough!)
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 13 Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net> Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 21:29:38 -0600 (CST) Fwd Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 09:44:05 -0500 Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >From: Jeff King <Boroimhe@aol.com> >Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 23:32:06 EST >To: updates@globalserve.net >Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >>From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net> >>Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 22:21:51 -0500 >>Fwd Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 08:20:44 -0500 >>Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality <mucho snippo> >So, one way to falsify alien abduction claims >is to test how well they predict physically testable matters. >Two examples are missing fetus claims and alien implants. If >truly anomalous terminations of pregnancies are happening we >should be able to document the fact. If alien artifacts are >being left in people's bodies, we should be able to recover them >and test them to prove extraterrestrial manufacture. So far, >every artifact recovered and properly tested has been mundane >and every properly investigated missing fetus claim has been >shown to have no independent corroboration or an earthly cause. >With the caveat that too few proper investigations of these >matters have been made, to date, these testable predictions from >alien abduction claims have been falsified. > Jeff, I couldn't agree with you more. And Greg, this is not to gang-jump on you, but it really is time for people with these particularly extraordinary claims to provide, not extraordinary evidence, so much as simple, mundane evidence of their claims. Let me put that more fairly: it's up to the abductionologists who publicize such claims and allegations to substantiate them. Claims of missing time, we concede, would be almost impossible to prove (or disprove). Missing fetuses and alien implants are another issue altogether. Where is the even remotely suggestive evidence of such assertions? Where is the evidence anywhere in the psychiatric and/or psychological literature, _prior to the advent of the abduction literature_, that hundreds and thousands, and perhaps millions of people, were having their lives disrupted by this phenomenon? There is none, none whatsoever, although we are now being informed that abductions (routinely) begin in childhood and predate the Hills' 1961 experience by decades. Yet not a single one of these disturbances surfaced at the time in a form that would be even remotely semi-recognizable to any modern day abduction adherent. Let me emphasize this: if the emotional distress (occasioned by abductions) to which Sandow and others are so attached were real, physically and historically, _then it would have cropped up somewhere_ before the advent of the UFO abduction literature. But it patently and demonstrably didn't. It is just not there. Hopkins, Jacobs, Mack and Sandow can search for it until the cows come home, and they won't find it. It's not there and there's no reason why it shouldn't be, if thousands or millions of people were experiencing abductions prior to the Hills going public. No one having allegedly experienced an abduction in the 1920s, for example, could use fear of UFO ridicule as an excuse for not coming forward, given that UFO ridicule wouldn't exist for another 20+ years. Indeed, the 20s (and the turn of the century) were quite promotive of claims of extraterrestrial beings. One might argue that anyone experiencing little grays at the time would have beat down the doors of their neighborhood Freudian shrink in order to tell their story. Much else is there -- but no patently recognizable abductions and alien grays. Why not? It's not an idle question. Why did no hint of alien abductions surface anywhere prior to the Hill account (or, if you prefer, the 1957 Villas Boas case)? If one assumes that today's abductees were routinely being abducted in their early youth, as they now claim? We're also now being told that it's all in the family; generation after generation is tracked, followed (implanted?) and abducted. _Then where in God's name is the pre-Hill evidence of same?_ Where, anywhere, is there evidence that abductions are anything remotely resembling a "routine" or ongoing occurrence? So heartfelt emotions are involved? So what? Heartfelt evotions are activated at Lourdes, Mecca and at any number of places and under any number of circumstances, and they don't necessarily indicate anything other than abiding proof of the fact that humans are emotional beings. Distress is just that, nothing more, nothing less. And as we all know, not all "abductees" experience distress. Oh, hell, I don't even want to go on. Read Strieber's mailbag. After that, read Sprinkle's mailbag. Then read Mack's mailbag. Then get back to me. Curious minds like mine would like to know: which mailbag can I trust? Who's account is typical and consistent? And typical and consistent according to what or whom? Incidentally, the above is addressed to Greg and not Jeff. Meanwhile, I'm getting very short-tempered about this stuff. Apologies to Clark and Bullard aside, but _there is no consistent abduction account_, period, and it's high time everyone faced up to that fact. As well as the fact that what changes in the previously recognized abduction scenario that have occurred, ie., nurseries, hybrid babies, missing fetuses, etc., clearly reflect larger social concerns being played out contemporaneously. One has to be socially obtuse to conclude that, whatever else is going on, the abduction phenomenon is remarkably free of parallel cultural developments, which just happen to be concerned with issues of abortion, genetic engineering, adoption, hybridization/racialization, etc. Not! Curious, isn't it, that the aliens' concerns so closely mimic our own? So technologically advanced on the one hand, so culturally handicapped on the other. Capable of space travel and the ability to beam human beings through solid objects -- but so inadequate when it comes to feelings and emotions. A dying race that couldn't survive without us -- and how lucky they were to have stumbled across us! Billions of years advanced, masters of all they surveyed -- but somehow it was just us that they needed. This is not just science fiction, it's bad science fiction. See Mike Davis's definitive 'Cosmic Dancers on History's Stage?' in The Anomalist 5: http://www.anomalist.com That's assuming, of course, that citations solve everything. Dennis
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 13 Re: MAGONIA Monthly Supplement #12 From: James Bouck <JGBOUCK@aol.com> Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 22:42:52 EST Fwd Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 09:51:26 -0500 Subject: Re: MAGONIA Monthly Supplement #12 >Date: Sun, 07 Feb 1999 23:22:00 +0000 >To: updates@globalserve.net >From: Mark Pilkington <m.pilkington@virgin.net> >Subject: MAGONIA Monthly Supplement #12 >EDITORIAL >My short piece in the January issue about the Hudson Valley UFO >sightings seems to have generated quite a lot of heat. Philip >Klass says that not only were formations of light aircraft >responsible for generating the flap, but that the pilots set out >deliberately to generate UFO reports. Jerome Clark apparently >favours taking the reports at face value. On the Internet, I am >castigated by Tim Matthews for apparently failing to notice that >other types of aircraft were involved. However, I never said >that all of the sightings were attributable to light aircraft, >so I am not sure what he is getting at. Further polemical >letters or short articles on this subject will be welcome. You may have never said that all of the sightings were attributable to light aircraft but, you never even hinted that any might have been anything other than light aircraft. I guess it's not what you say but what you don't say when called upon the carpet for something. If you are going to be a closed minded individual like Klass then stand up for what you say and not what you don't say. Jim Bouck
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 13 Re: What If? From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@connectmmic.net> Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 23:01:32 -0500 Fwd Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 09:53:59 -0500 Subject: Re: What If? >From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com> >Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 18:29:56 +0000 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: Re: What If? >>From: Kathleen Andersen <KAnder6444@aol.com> >>Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 16:38:02 EST >>Fwd Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 15:05:13 -0500 >>Subject: Re: What If? >Previously, Kathleen had offered: >>Do many people ever wonder that perhaps we aren't told things >>for a reason? Do we ever wonder how life would change? ><snip> >>How would they >>react if the goverment came right out on the news tonight and >>said "oh yes they are here, we don't know if they are good or >>bad or what their intention is but they are here". >Would life change if we knew the "truth" about ET life? Of >course! The problem is that those in power would risk losing >everything if the truth were known while our lives might >possibly improve as a result of this knowledge. >Change is inevitable, but not always bad. I say let's know the >truth about ET's and let the chips fall where they may! With the >exception of my wife and beautiful baby girl, my life couldn't >suck any more than it already does. Bring on the aliens! <G> Roger, Kathleen, I am in Roger's situation familywise. Life does have a meaning after all. As far as information goes, I am afraid keeping people away from the truth has always been the best way to control them. The Catholic Church used this in its prime time because it had the power. Not to say that it was replaced by something any better. Can this obscure entity known as "the mass" take the truth? An interesting debate. But this "what if" is, to say the least, exhilarating. Take care, Serge Salvaille
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 13 Odd Early Morning Sky Glows in Pennsylvania From: Stan Gordon <paufo@westol.com> Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 00:18:18 -0500 Fwd Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 09:56:16 -0500 Subject: Odd Early Morning Sky Glows in Pennsylvania Odd Early Morning Sky Glows in Pennsylvania From Stan Gordon PA UFO Hotline (724-838-7768) www.westol.com/~paufo Within the last few weeks, I have had two similar reports of unusual early morning glows in the sky. The first occurred on January 18, 1999 about 6:20 A.M. in the direction of Sheakleyville, PA in Mercer County. Witnesses reported looking due north, and saw the entire northern horizon illuminated with a fiery red color. The glow appeared to pulsate from brighter to dimmer, giving the observers the impression that there was a large forest fire in that area. According to one witness, the glow was right on the horizon, no color was visible in the upper part of the sky. Later that day, being curious about what was seen that morning, a witness contacted local authorities to see if they had an explanation for the strange glow, since there was no mention of any fires in the local news. They also had no idea what caused the illumination. I speculated that what they might have see could have been the Northern lights, since they have been seen in this area in the past. Normally when they are seen however, we generally hear more widespread reports. I discussed this matter with a meteorologist acquaintance of mine, and he also thought that this was a possible explanation. There were a few low clouds in that area at the time of the observance, and he speculated that the rising sun could have illuminated these clouds causing the reddish appearance. I discussed these ideas with one observer, who said that she has seen the northern lights and this was quite different. She also said this glow was of an intense color, and thought it unlikely to be related to the sunrise. The second report occurred at 1:54 A.M. on the morning of February 8, 1999, near Turtle Creek a suburb of Pittsburgh. The witness was using his computer when something drew his attention to the nearby window. He was looking southeast, and noticed the entire skyline lit up like a big fire. It was described as rosy-orange in color, and pulsated brighter and dimmer. He watched this for about 2 to 3 minutes, when suddenly in the center of the glow, a bright white diamond shaped light appeared for a second "like a flash bulb going off." Instantly after the flash, the sky went back to normal and the fiery glow had disappeared. Once again the witness was curious enough to call around for explanations, which he was unable to find. I also checked for possible sources for the glow, but so far a cause has not been determined. Westmoreland County 911 which handles emergency calls in the area of the glow, had no reports of fires, or other calls that would be associated with the report. I am curious if others are receiving similar reports, and I welcome any explanations for the source of these glows. Stan Gordon
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 13 'Chrome Football' Shuttle Footage From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@get2net.dk> Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 04:47:22 GMT Fwd Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 10:01:34 -0500 Subject: 'Chrome Football' Shuttle Footage Source: "alt.paranet.ufo". Stig *** From: "mukker" <mukker@chezmux.freeserve.co.uk> Newsgroups: alt.paranet.ufo Subject: Shuttle footage Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 02:02:33 -0000 There's a three-part, three-hour long UFO documentary being shown in the UK on Channel 4. (Riddle of the Skies, Union Skyline Prod.) They've already shown some shuttle footage that is almost 'proof' (and I mean better stuff than the black & white 'attempted shootdown') and hopefully they'll show one particular sequence which I saw at their offices in London, which if I were them I'd save as the final 'clincher'. Unless it's one hell of a hoax... you see the Earth, in full colour, to one side. Part of the shuttle is also in shot, then what can only be described as a 'chrome football', perfectly smooth, wanders in front of the camera, jiggles about for a few seconds then shoots away. It's NOT the skycam thing they use. Venus, I suppose.... MMcA
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 13 New UFO Videos Online From: Dave Ledger <dledger@CABLEINET.CO.UK> Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 05:35:12 +0000 Fwd Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 10:11:52 -0500 Subject: New UFO Videos Online Greetings listmembers, Tonight (Friday 12th) I posted about 15 new video clips onto the UFO Scotland videos page. Some of the footage at least to my knowledge, has not been available on the internet until now. The videos are mostly MPG files and they are all available for download to your hard drives but we must ask that they are only used for research purposes only and not to be used for any financial gain whatsoever. The urls for these new clips are as follows: http://wkweb5.cableinet.co.uk/dledger/video.htm http://wkweb5.cableinet.co.uk/dledger/video1.htm or AOL etc: Also we are lacking in a few details about some of the new clips posted and would like to ask some of the learned members of the list if they may be able to assist in any way with a few dates, times and locations etc. Any and all help on this matter will be well appreciated and it also serves to keep the general public better informed as to the facts of the ufo phenomenon. There will be many more new pieces of new footage to follow as soon as we can get them up on the site, but this task alone is proving to be a lengthy and time consuming process.Still we will persevere due to our total commitment to the cause. I sincerely thank you all for your time and wish you all well with your own various projects. All the best to everyone and keep watching the skies. From your friend, Dave Ledger (UFO Scotland) -- ================================================================== If you see someone without a smile......give them one of yours :) ****************************************************************** Posted by: Dave Ledger (mailto:UFOSCOT@cableinet.co.uk) VISIT "UFO SCOTLAND" AT: <A HREF="http://wkweb5.cableinet.co.uk/dledger/index.htm">UFO Scotland.</A> ICQ pager http://wwp.mirabilis.com/4851425 ****************************************************************** THE TRUTH IS JUST AROUND THE CORNER!..................BUT HOW FAR? ================================================================== "The sands of time are trickling away from our dear mother Earth and yet we continue to fight amongst ourselves and destroy our natural enviroment,leaving all the mess for our children and their children's children to inherit when we're gone."
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 13 UFO Over Peru Filmed By TV Station From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@get2net.dk> Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 05:07:54 GMT Fwd Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 10:14:16 -0500 Subject: UFO Over Peru Filmed By TV Station Source: "alt.ufo.reports". Stig *** From: ufoalarcon@webtv.net (Guillermo Alarcon) Newsgroups: alt.ufo.reports Subject: Live U.F.O.S. over Peru Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 15:51:37 -0600 (CST) Organization: WebTV Subscriber Lines: 43 --WebTV-Mail-307313289-6236 To all UFO researchers: I have received many e-mails today saying that there was a UFO over Peru last night and that a TV station captured the footage live, and that there is also an underground base near Lima, Peru? Does anybody know something about it? Sincerely, Guillermo Alarcon. http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Nebula/3703/ramses.html http://www.anw.com/dreamlandfx/images/Triad32a-m.JPG http://members.tripod.com/~webtv17/alienface.gif http://www.listbot.com/cgi-bin/subscriber?Act=subscribe_list&list_id=ufologia http://www.listbot.com/subscribe_button.gif Join our mailing list! --WebTV-Mail-307313289-6236--
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 13 Re: What If? From: Sharon Kardol <sharon@hotmix.com.au> Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 13:58:18 +0800 Fwd Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 10:20:41 -0500 Subject: Re: What If? >From: Roger Evans <moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com> >Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 18:29:56 +0000 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: Re: What If? <snip> >Would life change if we knew the "truth" about ET life? Of >course! The problem is that those in power would risk losing >everything if the truth were known while our lives might >possibly improve as a result of this knowledge. Absolutely. "Them" holding the truth from us (if infact they are) is not because of some impending doom or national security, it's all about power and control. What would be the point of being the President if not for the power and control (just as Ms Lewinsky <G>). >Change is inevitable, but not always bad. I say let's know the >truth about ET's and let the chips fall where they may! With the >exception of my wife and beautiful baby girl, my life couldn't >suck any more than it already does. Bring on the aliens! <G> Absobloodylutely. We can be the masters of our own destiny, but only if we are informed and prepared. >Later, Better later than never, I suppose :} >Roger Evans Cheers Sharon K
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 13 Martian 'Bacteria' Matched To Earth From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@get2net.dk> Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 06:49:05 GMT Fwd Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 10:33:48 -0500 Subject: Martian 'Bacteria' Matched To Earth Source: http://news.bbc.co.uk/low/english/sci/tech/newsid_277000/277674.stm Stig *** BBC News Online: Sci/Tech Thursday, February 11, 1999 Published at 15:26 GMT Martian 'bacteria' matched to Earth By BBC News Online Science Editor Dr David Whitehouse ** Unusual features found on a Martian meteorite may be those of fossilised alien bacteria after all, research suggests. When Nasa researchers first made their claims about Martian microfossils in 1996 they were greeted with scepticism by those who believed the shapes were too small to have come from any bacteria-like organisms. But in a new study, scientists have shown that the tiny fossilised structures can be produced after microbes have died. The experiments have shown that certain parts of Earth bacteria can also leave similar remains when they are fossilised. "We believe we have clearly shown that features similar in size and shape to those in the Martian meteorite do exist within the biological record on Earth," said Kathie Thomas-Keprta of Lockheed Martin Space Mission Systems and Services in Houston, Texas. But she warned that this does not prove definitively that the meteorite features are fossilised organisms. Fossilised filaments The Earth bacteria, taken from rocks in Washington state, were bred in conditions that simulated the environment deep beneath the Earth's surface. When they died, they became fossilised in only eight weeks. Scientists saw that about 30% of the microbes grown in the laboratory had filaments attached. Crucially, filaments that were not attached to the organisms also became fossilised. Researchers say it is the first time such tiny parts of bacteria have been shown to become mineralised in the same way as whole microbe. It suggests the structures on the Martian rock may also be the fossilised remains of filaments. Original findings The longest shapes identified on the meteorite are approximately 1/25 the diameter of a human hair. Dr Everett Gibson, a Nasa planetary scientist who worked on the meteorite, says the new study supports the original findings. ALH84001, the potato-sized Martian meteorite is about 4.5 billion years, the period when Mars formed. It is believed to have originated beneath the Martian surface. It is believed that billions of years ago Mars was warmer and wetter. The water is believed to have penetrated fractures in the surface rock, forming an underground water system. This system may have been the best location for life during much of Mars's history. The Earth bacteria used in this new experiment came from the Columbia River basalt of Washington State. They are an example of life thriving at depth in fractured rock where it is isolated from light and protected from any harsh environment at the surface. So it may be a good example of what life was like on Mars. Relevant Stories: *The source of Martian water (21 Jan 99 | Sci/Tech) *Rain check on Mars (11 Dec 98 | Sci/Tech) *Mars' north pole revealed in stunning 3D (08 Dec 98 | Sci/Tech) *New hope of finding life on Mars (22 Oct 98 | Sci/Tech) Red planet rock (10 Aug 98 | Sci/Tech) Internet Links: *Lockheed Martin Space Mission Systems and Services Life on Mars? (Nasa) The BBC is not responsible for the content of external internet sites. =A9
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 13 Re: The Sheffield Incident From: David Clarke <dclarke14@compuserve.com> Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 06:45:38 -0500 Fwd Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 10:50:38 -0500 Subject: Re: The Sheffield Incident >From: Martin Jeffrey <mbkc67@dial.pipex.com> >To: <Updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: Re: The Sheffield Incident >Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 18:14:04 -0000 <snip> >This case was nothing more than a mix of coincidence and >hysteria inadvertantly caused by the police and Sheffield media. >The RAF, broke the sound barrier over Sheffield and the Howden >Moors twice and this coincided with sightings of a low flying >aircraft. <snip> Martin's independent evidence bears out what I have been saying about this 'incident' for the best part of two years. As for the "over-ambitious investigator" to whom Martin refers: Max Burn's most recent, voluminous, posts on UpDates are indicative of his confusing fantasy with reality to the point where he is actually playing a part in his own episode of the X-Files - and this one has more holes in the plot than average. The more he posts to the Internet, the more it become obvious how little he knows about the geography of the area he is discussing, the rules of evidence and even basic investigation techniques. I will dealing with his claims and allegations concerning my "intimidation" of witnesses and other investigators in a separate post. My experience and qualifications - including a PhD from the University of Sheffield, ten years working as an investigative journalist, and a series of awards for my work - speak for themselves. I am keeping Mr Dagenhart, in particular, informed about what Max is claiming and this may lead to separate action elsewhere. Some of those people whom Max is invoking are now starting to post their separate evidence to this List, and he will soon find himself having to eat his own words. All I ask is that readers who are interested in this 'incident' should acquaint themselves with both sets of evidence before making their own minds up. My account appeared in the UK UFO Magazine in July/August last year and full updated 40 page report will be available from the Independent UFO Network shortly. The twists and turns of this case have illustrated the dichotomy that exists in the UK between serious ufology and the lunatic fringe. Anyone like myself who ventures into the muddy waters and tries to take a serious and scientific look at the problem is demonised and pilloried by that lunatic fringe. Their only method of responding to reasonable questions about their extreme claims is to throw the words "debunker", "skeptic" and "cover-up" like confetti. It's a highly convenient way of avoiding having to produce a logical argument that adheres to the scientific method like the rest of us have to follow. The word of Max is all very amusing for those of us watching from the outside - but what worries me is the damage that it is doing to the reputation of ufology as a whole. How can any serious UFO investigator and researcher expect scientists and Governments to take a serious look at the UFO evidence when the subject is entertaining unscientific claims of the kind he is promoting? One final point: If Max wants to put an end to this saga once and for all, there is a quite simple way of doing it. We can argue about it on UpDates for years, but if he is so confident he has evidence which can "prove" (his words) that NATO lost a jet over the Peak District (with the loss of life) as a result of a UFO incident - then he should take his evidence to the appropriate authorities for an independent investigation. It is a criminal offence in the United Kingdom to hide a dead body or the remains of a dead body from the HM Coroner - and that is in effect what Max is claiming has happened in this case. I challenge Max to present his "report" and conclusions to HM Coroner for South Yorkshire. Christopher Dorries, at the Medico-Legal Centre, Sheffield, by March 1 this year. If Mr Dorries finds there is any evidence to support such a claim I will accept my conclusions are wrong. If Max fails to present his evidence by March 1 then it will be obvious he has none, and readers can draw their own conclusions. It's time to put up or shut up once again, Mr Burns.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 13 Miami 'Circle' is Railroad Turntable From: Robert A.M. Stephens <sti3818@montana.com> Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 05:04:41 -0700 Fwd Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 11:13:05 -0500 Subject: Miami 'Circle' is Railroad Turntable To all, In 1911 The Narrow Gauge Railway Co. operated by Teddy Collins and Sons, known as the Narrow Gauge Starfire Co., originally from the Oak Hill area of Pennsylvania, was contracted in May of 1910 by the operations board for the then fledging Florida East Coast Railway and Navigation Co. to begin dredging in the Miami byway area for an intended spur link from thier interchange 'Y' at mile post 289. In so doing, since the Florida East Coast Railway was standard gauge (4' 8 1/2" as per modern AAR standards) the large road engines and the lighter switchers, were much too heavy to operate on the required light rails (30 lbs. per yard) that construction trains running on the sand based ground in an around the area were using, resorted to contracting a narrow gauge railroad builder and operator to perform the works. Teddy Collins was the outfit. The man himself was a lumberman who fell back on railway construction work to offset the downturn in lumbering that was vexing the nation in the 1906-13 time frame. He got the contract to construct the following: 1. A 6 mile long elevated standard gauge RR bed from the FECRwy. junction in western Miami, then curve through downtown Miami proper, crossing the waterway-mud area in question, then terminating with a branch that would come to the ocean side stead. 2. A twin turntable pier structure for a low slung Howe-Truss center span bridge. (the 'Circle' in question). 3. Laid course to be with 100 per yard rail. In 1913 Collins finished construction but the excavation of the waterway nearly broke him. The remnants of native American artifacts in the area is a result of the deep muck removal of material on the site in the attempt to form a more stable road bed. The attempt in this area failed. The FECRwy. abandoned the 6 mile spur in favor of Teamsters moving freight from the FECRwy. railhead to downtown locations. The circle in question was the standard design base at the time of building a Howe-Truss, center bearing bridge traverse. Thought I would let you know. References: 'The Railroad in the Sun'. The FECRwy.Co.' Howell North Books, 1962 John T. Labbe 'Lumbering and Logging in Pennsylvania' Veron Goe and John Kasler 1970-(out of print--collectors edition) 'The Locomotives that Baldwin built' Coronado Press, 1969 Elgin Meeks 'Rails Through Dixie' Peach Tree Press, 1975 John Vilden and Ennice Kregg 'The Climax Locomotive. A Geared Wonder' Narrow Gauge Pictorial Dann James Historical Publishers, 1980 (Pg. 133. Pict. of locomotive used in the dredging work. Locomotive CN # 190,. Climax Locomotive Works, Corry Penny.) 'Mikado: The Locomotives of Florida' (a trieste to the 2-8-2 Wheel Arrangement For Fast Freight on Light Ground.' Locomotive Historical Quarterly. DoT Document number 388.55.A (1989) And lastly, there are far more compelling 'circles' of note that are real, not railroad excavations, at the sound end of the Kennedy Space Center along the Banana River. Wonder why no one is talking about that. Perhaps a little too close to 'Space' based subject matter? -- sincerely, Robert A.M. Stephens NASA Documentation Program Stillwater Mills Contractor-Aerospace KSC-PIB/shuttle 406-745-3818 sti3818@montana.com http://198.116.116.10/gallery/arts/samples.html
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 13 Re: Robert Todd On MJ-12 From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net> Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 09:38:10 -0400 Fwd Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 11:31:32 -0500 Subject: Re: Robert Todd On MJ-12 >Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 02:03:45 -0800 >From: Josh Goldstein <clearlt@pacbell.net> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: Re: Robert Todd On MJ-12 >Stanton, >I never implied that you were not a bona fide researcher. >Perhaps I should have stated...to another bona fide researcher >outside the loop...rather than a bona fide researcher outside >the loop. I never suspected you of having anything to do with >the possibility of forging papers. That was Mr.Todd's statement. >I was supporting that at one time you were associated in >research with Mr. Moore and Mr. Shandera in investigating >Roswell. What I meant by another researcher was someone else who >had never been associated with anyone related to that document. >Someone else who also was a bonafide researcher in government >documents, since Moore's credibility is suspect and Shandera was >his associate. I knew Bill Moore and Jaime Shandera before Moore >made his confession. Afterwards I suspected the source of the >MJ12 documents as to be a possible disinformation ploy >manufactured by the OSI. I have never suspected that Moore, >Shandera or yourself created fake documents. When your book was >published in 1996 I read it with great interest. Much of your >research seemed tenable. I have never come to a final conclusion >about those documents being authentic or not. That has a lot to >do with the paucity of supporting documents in other records. I >don't yet feel it is a closed case. I will take a fresh look at >your book to reacquaint myself with your results. >I have always felt you to be a bonafide researcher. What you >interpreted as my name calling was a misunderstanding. I did not >quote Mr. Lehmberg's post in my original post because his name >calling was mean ranting. If you want to refresh your memory, >read it and I think you will agree. In past disagreements on >this forum he acted in ways not befitting an intelligent adult. >(disputing the message by personally attacking the messenger). >Since I respect your background and your research abilities I >would like to ask you a question. Based on your previous >background in developing nuclear engines have you any reason to >think that the Cash-Landrum case had anything to do with >Government black nuclear engine development after you left that >work? I always wondered if that might have been a possibility >but could not imagine something like that being tested anywhere >near populations. >Josh Goldstein Thanks for the clarification. I do find it strange that some people accept the notion that Shandera and Moore faked the CT memo and flew all the way to Washington spending days ther before finding it, but did nothing with it for years. They went to all the trouble to find watermarked onionskin paper, clearly aged, from a cmpany that made it only in bid lots, managed to find out somehow that Cutler was out of the country on the date given for the memo, so it wasn't signed, somehow knew enough to put in a slant red pencil mark through the unusual security marking (not truly verified as having been in use at that time until the GAO went througn tons of documents and noted that such a marking was used in the right time frame despite claims that it hadn't been. Found out that both Twining and Ike were in town on the date of the meeting, etc etc. What did they do with it? _Nothing_ for years besides sending me a copy. Since the EBD was on film sent in the mail so there could be no check of ink or paper, no watermark, etc, why not just send a Xerox copy of the "faked" document through the mail? A lot cheaper than flying from California to DC and spending several days there. Why go through the crazy business of sending cryptic postcards from exotic places? People on this List can testify to having seen them. How did they know Box 189 could be used???? There are many more problems with this very strange scenario that some want to accept. Re: Nuclear Propulsion for the Cash Landrum case. Yes, I for one have always wondered about the possibility of the craft being ours and that accounting for the fleet of helicopters to retrieve the highly classified, and dangerous technlogy. The Aircraft Nuclear Propulsion Program was officially cancelled in about 1961 after spending roughly a billion dollars. A great deal of very exotic high temperature nuclear technlogy had been developed. One possible use rather than replacing the burner cans in turbines would be to create electrical power for a Magenoaerodynamic system similar to the Electromagnetic Submarine successfully tested in the mid l960s. As I noted in various papers about 30 years ago, such a system might get around all the problems of atmospheric flight such as controlling lift, drag, heating, radar profile, sonic boom production etc. Perhaps an accident made them lose control. Perhaps it even was unmanned. It might have used a liquid metal cooled reactor (worked on by Pratt Whitney) rather than the direct cycle air cooled reactors developed by General Electric. Stan Friedman
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 13 Re: Robert Todd on MJ-12 From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com> Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 08:01:01 -0600 Fwd Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 13:22:13 -0500 Subject: Re: Robert Todd on MJ-12 >Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 05:27:21 -0800 >From: Josh Goldstein <clearlt@pacbell.net> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: Re: Robert Todd on MJ-12 <snip> >Alfred, I should have originally quoted your above post.. I have >reread Mr. Todd's post and saw that he made a debate based on >his evidence but got below the belt in his third person >accusations of Stanton Friedman. However, the purpose of my >previous post to you was that I don't think Mr. Friedman needs >you to defend him by resorting to character attacks on Mr. Todd. >Two wrongs don't make a right. They demean both of you. Again -- I maintain a spirited debate. Mr. Todd creates my reaction. I don't agree with your assessment, and will let the moderator decide the definition of a 'wrong'. A closer inspection concludes that my attack is on ideas, I believe, not on the person. >I don't know why I jumped into the middle of this dogfight. I >guess since the last big scrum on UpDates I hoped we could >debate Ufology without personal attacks. I appreciate you coming back on this, and throttle back, somewhat <g>, on my assessment of your position, but keep wearing a cup. >To me such attacks only >lower my opinion of the attackers and detract from the debate. I'm content to let ebk conclude what constitutes an unwarranted attack. You should too. >Many researchers never fall to that level on UpDates. Stanton >Friedman and Jerry Clark are two good examples. Well -- let's keep reading, shall we? Lehmberg@snowhill.com -- Explore the Alien View! Ponder the Wit & Wisdom of Ching Chow! "Unstill Life" -- Animation . . . and more. http://www.fortunecity.com/roswell/arecibo/46/ <Updated 8 February> John Ford Restoration Fund -- Send your checks and money orders to _me_, Alfred Lehmberg (cut out the lawyers, they got their's) at: 304 Melbourne Drive, Enterprise AL, 36330. Strict records kept. "Only thin, _very light_ envelopes with a return address will be accepted <g>." ~~~ $250.00 pledged -- $150.00 collected ~~~ "I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see from afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, while burning at the fundamentalist's stake.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 13 Re: Heavenly Vedic Casket and Inverted Trees From: Lawrie Williams <nemesis@fastinternet.net.au> Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 00:42:51 +1000 Fwd Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 13:44:39 -0500 Subject: Re: Heavenly Vedic Casket and Inverted Trees Electronic Journal Of Vedic Studies, Vol. 1 (1995), issue 2 (May) email: ejvs-list@shore.net (C) With the authors and the editors Michael Witzel, Looking for the Heavenly Casket To make a start, the editor presents a short article on an interesting topic of Vedic astronomy. The identity of the "Heavenly Bucket" has eluded us so far.... Abstract Throughout Vedic literature, from the Rgveda to the Brhadaranyaka Upanisad, reference is occasionally made to a "heavenly casket" (divya kosa), from which water is poured down towards earth. Several attempts have been made to locate this vessel in the sky. In the present article the relevant materials are presented a new solution is proposed which combines, according to the well tested philological approach, mythological facts with a keen observation of nature..... Address: Michael Witzel, Department of Sanskrit and Indian Studies, Harvard University, 53 Church Street, Cambridge MA 02138, USA. phone: 617 - 495 3295 617 - 496 8570 (voicemail) fax: 617 - 496 8571 email: witzel@husc3.harvard.edu .....descriptions and interpretations of the phenomena of the night sky and its mythology were virtually absent until Kuiper's articles "The Three Strides of Visnu" and "The Heavenly Bucket" where (4) he pointed out that there also is another type of movement, of actual turning of the night sky. As is now well known, at night, the great Vedic god Varuna holds the world tree, in the form of a large Asvattha, up-side down, its roots pointing upwards and its branches pointing downwards. "In the unfathomable space king Varuna, he of purified intelligence, upholds the tree's stupa (RtuftS); they [the branches] stood directed downwards. May their rays be fixed in us" (RV 1.24.7) (4). This has become a familiar image that as occupied the imagination of Vedic seers, mystics, and poets for centuries. It occurs, again, in the Katha Upanisad 6.1, Taittiriya Aranyaka 1.11.5 (a text taken over from the Katha school) and in the Bhagavad Gita 15.1. What does such an image entail? It means, as Kuiper posited, that at night the netherworld is situated above us, in the night sky. The earth thus turns around its horizontal axis or, rather, it slowly shifts its horizon (as "viewed" from the observer's position at the center of earth, sky and netherworld). This might seem a very strange image for us. However, the texts are clear enough and attention may also be drawn to a little known fact: the same idea can be found in a grave in W. Denmark. There, about one hundred years ago, a tomb was excavated in which a tree has been inserted, upside down, in a stone hand mill -- exactly the type of image Kuiper wanted to demonstrate for the Vedic night sky..... (deletia astronomy) In this upward region of the night sky another strange feature can be found - at least, in mythology. Kuiper pointed out some 20 years ago that Varuna as well as some other gods turn over or tip over a heavenly vessel, a casket or bucket (kosa) and empty its contents over the earth down beneath it, as can be seen in passages like the following. RV 5.85.3 "Varuna has poured out the cask, with its rim turned downwards, over heaven, earth and the interspace. Thereby the king of the whole world sprinkles the soil, as the rain (sprinkles) the barley." (10) RV 8.72.8 "With the ten (fingers) of Vivasvat, Indra has pulled up the heavenly bucket, with a threefold cord." (11) RV 8.72.10 "They (the hotrs) pour out with obeisance the inexhaustible source that goes round(?) with its bottom upwards (and) its rim downwards". (12)..... If one then were to try to find the heavenly casket in the night time sky, one cannot immediately discover, in the direct vicinity of the pole star anything which looks like a casket or a bucket. What then, could be this apparently "invisible" vessel? Some texts of the AV and of the Upanisads provide the key for an understanding. AV 10. 8.9 (17) runs as follows: " A bowl (camasa) with orifice downwards, bottom-side up - in it is deposited glory of all forms; there sit together the seven seers, who have become the keepers of it, the great one".... There is an even clearer version of this AV verse in BAUK 2.2.4 (SB 14.5.2.4) "There is a cup with its mouth below and its bottom up. In it is placed every form of glory. On its rim [tire] sit seven seers. Voice as an eighth is united with prayer (brahman)." [tr. HUME] .... (the author goes on to argue that this humming inverted bowl is the big dipper) .....I have tried to point out that many features of the Vedic Night Sky still are not understood well --and this means that we simply do not understand the meaning of some difficult passages of Vedic mythology, especially of those of the RV. In a wider context, this is of importance, too: If we do not pay attention to the counterclockwise motion of the Milky Way, we are not able to understand some complicated images of Vedic eschatology: why is there a path of the gods and a path of the ancestors, why is Yama's realm is both high up in the night sky and down below the earth as well as in the South. (25) In short, we have to pay close attention to such images in order to grasp a large part of Vedic mythology and cosmography. Even now, after some 150 years of the study of Vedic texts, our understanding of the Vedic night sky still is in its infancy.... 25. See BEI 2, n. 103: "with the ascent of Varuna to the zenith of the night sky, Yama and his paradise also move"; cf. Kuiper, Bliss of Asa, p. 119. F. B. J. Kuiper, The Heavenly Bucket, in: India Maior (Fs. Gonda), Leiden 1972, 144-156. (repr. in: Kuiper, Ancient Indian Cosmogony (ed. J. Irwin). Delhi: Vikas, 1983) The Bliss Of Asa, IIJ 8, 1964, 96-129. (repr. in: Kuiper, Ancient Indian Cosmogony (ed. J. Irwin). Delhi: Vikas, 1983) The Three Strides Of Visnu, Indological Studies in Honor of W.N. Brown , New Haven 1962) In the next issue, a list of microfilms (some 40,000 fols.) made in the Seventies in various parts of India and Nepal will be published by M. Witzel. These include some rare Vedic texts which are in need of study - something that cannot always be carried out by just one person or at one location alone. It is hoped that this kind of inventory will stimulate exchange and cooperation which has, of course, always been extended on a personal basis between some scholars in the field..... http://www.rz.uni-frankfurt.de/home/ftp/pub/titus/public_html It will function as a central web site for access to resources of relevance to Comparatists, Indo-Europeanists and other interested scholars. __________________________________________________
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 13 Re: The Sheffield Incident From: Max Burns <AlienHype@aol.com> Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 09:44:54 EST Fwd Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 13:51:02 -0500 Subject: Re: The Sheffield Incident >Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 06:54:09 -0800 (PST) >From: Stephen Mera <s_mera@yahoo.com> >Subject: Re: The Sheffield Incident >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >>From: Martin Jeffrey <mbkc67@dial.pipex.com> >>To: <Updates@globalserve.net> >>Subject: Re: The Sheffield Incident >>Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 18:14:04 -0000 >>Hello everybody. >>I'm Martin Jeffrey and I investigated the Howden Moors Incident >>along with David Clarke and Max Burns. ><snip> >Surely this can't be the same Martin Jeffrey, that claimed he >was moved from the Moor area by military officers where a UFO >had crashed and turned the grass blue, along with so called >photographs which were to appear in UFO Reality magazine, and >which the Editor John King knew nothing about..... Surely not! >Steve Mera. >== Thanks Steve, I had forgotten about the Military that Martin had told me were all over the area.. The Shefield case is a real event, and if anyone wishes to read my full and updated report on this then email me at: AlienHype@Aol.com Max
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 13 Re: Miami Circle is Railroad Turntable From: Patricia Mason <pmason@ee.net> Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 10:30:00 -0500 Fwd Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 14:00:59 -0500 Subject: Re: Miami Circle is Railroad Turntable >Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 05:04:41 -0700 >From: Robert A.M. Stephens <sti3818@montana.com> >To: UFO Updates Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>, >Subject: Miami 'Circle' is Railroad Turntable I happen to have a map of ancient earthworks and mounds in the Eastern US. Attached is a map of Florida. From what I've read most were burial mounds and vast shell heaps, no mention of effigy mounds like those found here in Ohio (home of the Great Serpent Mound) and elsewhere in the region. It's still a mystery who the people were that built the mounds. No memory of them or why they built the earthworks remains. Many of the effigy mounds and so-called forts were not burial mounds and their function is still unknown although astroarcheological alignments have been documented at some locations. From The Mound-Builders: A Reconstruction Of The Life Of A Prehistoric America Race, Through Exploration And Interpretation Of Their Earth Mounds, Their Burials, And Their Cultural Remains By Henry Clyde Shetrone Kennikat Press, Inc. Port Washington, NY (C)1964 originally published in 1930 Thought it interesting, Pat
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 13 Re: Odd Early Morning Sky Glows in Pennsylvania From: GT McCoy <gtmccoy@harborside.com> Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 09:22:24 -0800 Fwd Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 14:11:43 -0500 Subject: Re: Odd Early Morning Sky Glows in Pennsylvania >From: Stan Gordon <paufo@westol.com> >To: UFO Updates -Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>, >Subject: Odd Early Morning Sky Glows in Pennsylvania >Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 00:18:18 -0500 Hello All, Just a short note,having lived in northern climes, I have seen _many_ aurora events due to my nightime travels and jobs. Yes, they can do just about anything, as decribed in the post about "Morning Sky Glows" - and be bright enough to be seen in a populated area. With the Sun going towards a "Max" in 2000 we'll hear more about this -GT McCoy
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 13 Re: Research Query: Abductees - Any Blind From: SKvs <bradford@globalserve.net> Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 12:16:39 -0500 Fwd Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 14:14:34 -0500 Subject: Re: Research Query: Abductees - Any Blind >From: Leanne Martin <leanne_martin@hotmail.com> >To: updates@globalserve.net >Subject: Re: Research Query: Abductees - Any Blind Abductees? >Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 06:41:33 PST >>Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 21:03:13 -0500 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >>From: Sue Kovios <bradford@globalserve.net> >>Subject: Re: Research Query: Abductees - Any Blind Abductees? >>>From: Leanne Martin <leanne_martin@hotmail.com> >>>To: updates@globalserve.net >>>Subject: Research Query: Abductees - Any Blind Abductees? >>>Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 05:52:44 PST >>>Are there any reported cases of abductees having been blind, and >>>if so, what were their reported inpressions of the physical >>>nature, as well as other characteristics, of their alien >>>abductors? >>>Leanne ];-) >>That's one question I asked Signor Velez quite awhile ago, along >>with deaf eyewitnesses. >>To his knowledge he could not recall coming across anything of >>this nature nor did he remember anything in Budd's records. ><snip> >A great response but... >To keep it as simple as possible... >The question is really aimed at those who are 'vision impaired' >as a permanenent physical condition and I am sorry I didn't make >it 'that' plain. >The purpose of the question was to try to ascertain the obvious >perceptive differences of 'aliens' by the sighted compared with >the unsighted. And that was all. Sorry Leanne, you did say 'blind' in your original message. I guess I couldn't 'see' what you were really inquiring about. I guess 'blind' could refer to any visual impairment, and I responded as I interpreted your question. I'll put my glasses on next time so I can see what I'm responding to. ]8-) Regards, Sue
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 13 Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality From: Gildas Bourdais <GBourdais@aol.com> Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 13:36:22 EST Fwd Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 14:22:56 -0500 Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >From: Jean-Luc Rivera <JLRIV1@aol.com> >Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 04:09:24 EST >To: updates@globalserve.net >Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >Dear Kevin, >In a message dated 02/08/1999 6:49:52 PM, you wrote : >From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com> >Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 22:11:52 EST >To: updates@globalserve.net >Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto>updates@globalserve.net> >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net> >>Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >>Date: Sun, 07 Feb 99 11:33:55 PST <snip> >Nevertheless I think that to ask the question of the cultural >influences on the experiencers perceptions of whatever happened >to them is a good one: Bertrand Meheust and Michel Meurger in >France, Peter Hough and Jenny Randles in the UK have done some >very interesting studies. > Best regards >Jean-Luc Rivera To the List, I agree with Jean-Luc that the books of French authors Meheust and Meurger represent a very complete examination of the question of cultural influences, such as SF litterature. I don't agree at all with them but they have done a very good job. It has been at the core of French ufology for more than twenty years. It even became a trend dubbed "psycho-socio", and it had a lot of followers. In short, for them all of ufology was a psycho- sociological phenomenon (BTW it's funny to see French filmmaker and skeptic Francois Truffaut mention the idea at the end of the film Close Encounters, in which he played the role of Jacques Vallee). So, for a French reader, this idea sounds a little old hat today. It would have been good to translate these books at the time. However, I find the discussion on UFO UpDates very interesting and I thank every participant to it. I will certainly read with interest the book of Kevin Randle. Of course, even there are real abductions, there must be a lot of psycho-socio contamination today, which makes the early studies, such as Bullard's, so important. About the Hill case, I would add a little personal remark here. In the book, coauthored by Dr Simon, I noticed that several times (if not all times) in the hypnosis sessions, Simon tries to have Betty and Barney admit that they dreamed their encounter. But everytime they insist that it was real. So much for the influence of the good Doctor! Remember that, at the end he was able to put Barney in a trance, just saying: "Trance, Barney!". At this point of the debate, it is well worth recalling five points put forward by Dr Mack in favor of the reality of abductions (see his speech recorded on video at a conference of John White. I quote from memoty after seeing the video): 1- the consistency of many testimonies, by witnesses not knowing each other, even in minute details ; 2- evidence of real, physical abduction : in a number of cases, there are witnesses of their physical absence ; 3- testimonies of children as soon as two years of age, with nose bleed and pointing to the sky ; 4- the absence of psychiatric condition (Mack did not have one single case) ; 5- observation of UFO at the same time in the area, reported for instance in the next morning local paper. Perhaps there will be, sometime, a sixth and final point: the reality of implants, if it can be proved ? BTW, if I remember well, there was a military report of UFO tracked on radar by a nearby base in the Hill case,as mentioned by Allen Hynek. Just one more word: I would suggest that we keep in mind, for all abduction cases as well as older contactee cases and CE 3 cases, the ET deception factor. It's also present, apparently, in the Hill case. Gildas Bourdais
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 13 Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com> Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 13:40:46 EST Fwd Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 14:30:52 -0500 Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 21:29:38 -0600 (CST) >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net> >Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >Jeff, >I couldn't agree with you more. >And Greg, this is not to gang-jump on you, but it really is time >for people with these particularly extraordinary claims to >provide, not extraordinary evidence, so much as simple, mundane >evidence of their claims. There is no simple, mundane, evidence of the claims of abductees, simply because there is only the word of the abductee, that some "thing" has happened. The only evidence I hold, which demonstrates that I have been abducted, is the word of a worried mother when I dissappeared for two hours as a very young man.... perhaps 6 or 7 years old. That this missing time coincides with memory of an abduction experience should be evidence of the nature asked for. That it is not, is evidence of a closed mind. Any mind closed to evidence should not serve on the jury of judgement. My opinion. >Let me put that more fairly: it's up to the abductionologists >who publicize such claims and allegations to substantiate them. Why is this so in your philosophy? Why do you not take on a level of responsibility in the evaluation of that data which exists in lieu of denying that the data has merit to begin with? What you dismiss out of hand as fancy may very well be fact. >Claims of missing time, we concede, would be almost impossible >to prove (or disprove). Missing fetuses and alien implants are >another issue altogether. >Where is the even remotely suggestive evidence of such >assertions? Where is the evidence anywhere in the psychiatric >and/or psychological literature, _prior to the advent of the >abduction literature_, that hundreds and thousands, and perhaps >millions of people, were having their lives disrupted by this >phenomenon? There is none, none whatsoever, although we are now >being informed that abductions (routinely) begin in childhood >and predate the Hills' 1961 experience by decades. Yet not a >single one of these disturbances surfaced at the time in a form >that would be even remotely semi-recognizable to any modern day >abduction adherent. Wrong. By 1943 I was about three years old. And by 1943 I had two experiences which I remember as being abduction experiences. However at age two, and in 1942, I had never heard of a flying saucer, aliens or for that matter, anything related to the subject. These experiences were not shared or witnessed, but in my memory, they took place. The vision is alive as if it happened only last night. At age two plus. And the experiences were shared by me with my parents, who remember them quite vividly as described to them by me. At age two I was already communicating quite effectively in the English language. I started speaking clearly at 1 and a half years. And so these "dreams" are of a conveyance (perceived ambulance) which I had never seen before, taking me "up" to a hospital "in the sky!" Must have been Gripple in mother's milk, eh? >Let me emphasize this: if the emotional distress (occasioned by >abductions) to which Sandow and others are so attached were >real, physically and historically, _then it would have cropped >up somewhere_ before the advent of the UFO abduction literature. >But it patently and demonstrably didn't. It is just not there. >Hopkins, Jacobs, Mack and Sandow can search for it until the >cows come home, and they won't find it. It's not there and >there's no reason why it shouldn't be, if thousands or millions >of people were experiencing abductions prior to the Hills going >public. Well, I guess one of those cows just came home. In 1942 not only was I not yet three years old, but I had not read a book yet, seen a UFO which I could recognize as being one... etc., etc. Did it ever occur to you that perhaps the reason such information does not exist in literature is that no one understood or even remotely conceived of the possibility of alien intervention? And perhaps much of what appears as legend or even religion, may actually be such an experience? The key word is "may!" Can you imagine a person living in, say, 1800 AD arriving at the conclusion that he was abducted by aliens and taken away in their airship? Doubtful. As a matter of fact, the first horseless carriage was built in 1802 and was driven by a small steam engine. It did an honest 8 miles per hour and had to be disassembled due to lack of interest in such a conveyance. Perhaps the inventor should have used the coal burner as the first traveling fast food vendor in history. He made have made his fortune that way, eh? >No one having allegedly experienced an abduction in the 1920s, >for example, could use fear of UFO ridicule as an excuse for not >coming forward, given that UFO ridicule wouldn't exist for >another 20+ years. Indeed, the 20s (and the turn of the century) >were quite promotive of claims of extraterrestrial beings. One >might argue that anyone experiencing little grays at the time >would have beat down the doors of their neighborhood Freudian >shrink in order to tell their story. Much else is there -- but >no patently recognizable abductions and alien grays. Why not? >It's not an idle question. Why did no hint of alien abductions >surface anywhere prior to the Hill account (or, if you prefer, >the 1957 Villas Boas case)? If one assumes that today's >abductees were routinely being abducted in their early youth, as >they now claim? Oh but it is definitely an idle question because I do not agree that you have thought it through sufficiently to garner a conclusion such as has been drawn. A 1920's person may have or may NOT have had such an experience. But how that man (or woman, sorry) may have perceived it is another question entirely is it not? Perhaps that piece of underdone potato again. Or a dream? Or just the conclusion that speaking of such things would not exactly make the person popular except to ridicule. Say, what is it with some of you folks anyway? Have you no vision? Have you no place in your philosophy, no room, for possibilities such as do not exist in yours? Philosophy? Or silly phosophy. Informed people want to know. Sounds like some folks don't.... want to know. >We're also now being told that it's all in the family; >generation after generation is tracked, followed (implanted?) >and abducted. _Then where in God's name is the pre-Hill evidence >of same?_ Where, anywhere, is there evidence that abductions are >anything remotely resembling a "routine" or ongoing occurrence? You have not been paying attention to posts right here on this news list. There have been several well known abductees with direct recall of their experiences, having a family history of such goings on. It has occurred in my own family. But the perception of the event was, by virtue of the level of education and knowledge, misconstrued as being religious, paranormal et al. >So heartfelt emotions are involved? So what? Heartfelt evotions >are activated at Lourdes, Mecca and at any number of places and >under any number of circumstances, and they don't necessarily >indicate anything other than abiding proof of the fact that >humans are emotional beings. >Distress is just that, nothing more, nothing less. And as we all >know, not all "abductees" experience distress. >Oh, hell, I don't even want to go on. Read Strieber's mailbag. >After that, read Sprinkle's mailbag. Then read Mack's mailbag. >Then get back to me. Curious minds like mine would like to know: >which mailbag can I trust? Who's account is typical and >consistent? And typical and consistent according to what or >whom? >Incidentally, the above is addressed to Greg and not Jeff. >Meanwhile, I'm getting very short-tempered about this stuff. >Apologies to Clark and Bullard aside, but _there is no >consistent abduction account_, period, and it's high time >everyone faced up to that fact. Actually you are again mistaken. An abduction experience, a remembered abduction experience, occurred to me in about 1960 ish. My recall is rather vivid. This event was shared by a friend, with whom I was hunting on that day. My friend had similar recall but had been living half way across the country for the past 30 years. I had lost contact with him until only last year, when I found him via a search engine. He wrote me with some memories of that same trip, and memories which he has had for these nearly 38 years. He wrote me with those memories. They were discussed and rediscussed. He recently came to NY to renew the acquaintence. Our memories are nearly identical... with the exception of the first few moments of the event. He remembered a small family of "deer" and I remembered a small family of rabbits... he was loaded for deer. I was loaded for small game using a shotgun. He had a rifle... The recall of the shared experience is uncanny. >As well as the fact that what changes in the previously >recognized abduction scenario that have occurred, ie., >nurseries, hybrid babies, missing fetuses, etc., clearly reflect >larger social concerns being played out contemporaneously. >One has to be socially obtuse to conclude that, whatever else is >going on, the abduction phenomenon is remarkably free of >parallel cultural developments, which just happen to be >concerned with issues of abortion, genetic engineering, >adoption, hybridization/racialization, etc. >Not! >Curious, isn't it, that the aliens' concerns so closely mimic >our own? So technologically advanced on the one hand, so >culturally handicapped on the other. Capable of space travel and >the ability to beam human beings through solid objects -- but so >inadequate when it comes to feelings and emotions. A dying race >that couldn't survive without us -- and how lucky they were to >have stumbled across us! Billions of years advanced, masters of >all they surveyed -- but somehow it was just us that they >needed. Truth be known that these may be thoughts planted for the benefit of the abductee. Anyone who is an abductee and believes what they have been told by kidnappers should consider rethinking the scenario thru. Personally, I don't believe anything "they" have to say to me. They have not earned my belief or respect. And with all due respect, and not that it matters, neither have you, Sir. >This is not just science fiction, it's bad science fiction. See >Mike Davis's definitive 'Cosmic Dancers on History's Stage?' in >The Anomalist 5: Gesundt
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 13 Re: CompuServe UFO Forum? From: Tony Spurrier <TSpurrier@compuserve.com> Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 12:25:37 -0500 Fwd Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 14:35:42 -0500 Subject: Re: CompuServe UFO Forum? >From: Roy Hale <roy.hale@virgin.net> >To: <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: CompuServe UFO Forum? >Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 20:11:24 -0000 >This one is for those colleagues who are also members of the >CompuServe UFO Forum. >Can I explain: >Last night I received an e-mail from a very good friend, who has >herself received an e-mail from a colleague who asked her if I >had written anything for the CompuServe UFO Forum. <snip> >If you have indeed come across such a report, and you happened >to have read it, could I possibly ask you to forward a copy of >the report to the following address: roy.hale@virgin.net & >elufon@yahoo.com . Hi Roy There was a parody of your original report which was written jointly by myself and Sue lawrence. It was written in Xmas spirit and was posted on the forum on 25th December 1998. Your name was included in the article, although you were not quoted, nor any statements attributed to you and you were not included in any of the circumstances within the article. Does this clarify the situation? Tony
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 13 Pope Phone Home From: Jeremy Anderson <Jerry@uforesearch.freeserve.co.uk> Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 19:07:25 -0000 Fwd Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 14:39:06 -0500 Subject: Pope Phone Home Dear all, I have just received my latest copy of the British publication of the 'Fortean Times'. In the 'Hierophant' column at the end of the mag, is a lovely little story outlining Nick Popes latest fame file. Instead of advertising his latest book, it seems Nick is getting into television advertising 'One to One' cellphones. Nick say's that he would like to have a One to One with - an alien! I hope he didn't get paid for the ad, you know, cashing in on the subject and all that!! Sadly, I think the ad will go over a lot of heads....I mean, who outside the UFO community has ever _heard_ of Nick Pope - apart from his publishers and bank manager, of course? Comments? Jerry Anderson
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 13 Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net> Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 13:25:14 -0600 (CST) Fwd Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 14:46:18 -0500 Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 17:06:47 -0500 >It's also true that any attempt to predict and/or measure what >aliens supposedly do might be completely out to lunch. Compare >the discussion of SETI scientists listening for alien radio >signals. There's endless debate about whether aliens would or >wouldn't use radio, and the question is, until we meet some >aliens, completely unresolveable. There _are_ real questions >about how to conduct monitoring and what it might or might not >show, which doesn't mean we shouldn't do it. I don't see the >point, though, of discounting in advance what any party to the >debate is likely to say. The SETI assumption is that most intelligent civilizations will inevitably experience or pass through an "Age of Radio," not necessarily that all will, or have as yet, or won't eventually go on to something bigger and better. As a teenager in Fort Worth, I used to lie awake at night listening to a (if memory serves) 100,000-watt AM radio station coming out of Ciudad Acuna, Mexico. The reason why it was in Mexico, just across the border from Del Rio, was because such huge transmitters were outlawed in the US. The call letters were something like XEG. This is where Wolfman Jack got his start as a DJ. And even as we speak, the Wolfman is still hurtling through the vastness of space at 186,000 miles a second. It's scary (or at least sobering) to think that if there are any alien SETI scientists out there, the first sign of our presence could well be Wolfman Jack. An even more scarifying thought: one of the major advertizers on the station (he may have even owned it) was a local crank who promoted a rejuvenation process aimed at wealthy, aging males. As I recall, this involved injections of an extract taken from billy goat testicles. I've always wondered if the aliens weren't lying awake at night, listening to the same station. Maybe that explains why they're here now. They couldn't resist a good pitchman anymore than we can. Dennis
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 13 Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net> Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 15:08:35 -0500 Fwd Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 15:36:46 -0500 Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 21:29:38 -0600 (CST) >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net> >Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >And Greg, this is not to gang-jump on you, but it really is time >for people with these particularly extraordinary claims to >provide, not extraordinary evidence, so much as simple, mundane >evidence of their claims. I agree. >Where is the even remotely suggestive evidence of such >assertions? Where is the evidence anywhere in the psychiatric >and/or psychological literature, _prior to the advent of the >abduction literature_, that hundreds and thousands, and perhaps >millions of people, were having their lives disrupted by this >phenomenon? There is none, none whatsoever, although we are now >being informed that abductions (routinely) begin in childhood >and predate the Hills' 1961 experience by decades. Yet not a >single one of these disturbances surfaced at the time in a form >that would be even remotely semi-recognizable to any modern day >abduction adherent. You have, of course, surveyed (in remoreless detail) the psychological literature from the turn of the century till today. >Let me emphasize this: if the emotional distress (occasioned by >abductions) to which Sandow and others are so attached were >real, physically and historically, _then it would have cropped >up somewhere_ before the advent of the UFO abduction literature. >But it patently and demonstrably didn't. It is just not there. >Hopkins, Jacobs, Mack and Sandow can search for it until the >cows come home, and they won't find it. It's not there and >there's no reason why it shouldn't be, if thousands or millions >of people were experiencing abductions prior to the Hills going >public. As Dennis perfectly well knows, many writers have found parallels to the abduction experience in folklore and religious history, in cultures throughout the world, from ancient times until today. I'd suggest he argue with them, instead of me. I'm not impressed with the way most of these writers make these parallels -- I can't conclude as easily as they do (a) that abductions aren't real because folk beliefs in other cultures are too much like the abduction narrative, or (b) that abductions _are_ real but can't be carried out by extraterrestrial beings, because that version of the story is only our own culture's version of it. In other words, I think the parallels have been overstated. That they exist, though, is hard for anyone to deny. If abductions are in fact real, some of those folkloric or religious accounts could well be abduction stories. >No one having allegedly experienced an abduction in the 1920s, >for example, could use fear of UFO ridicule as an excuse for not >coming forward, given that UFO ridicule wouldn't exist for >another 20+ years. Indeed, the 20s (and the turn of the century) >were quite promotive of claims of extraterrestrial beings. One >might argue that anyone experiencing little grays at the time >would have beat down the doors of their neighborhood Freudian >shrink in order to tell their story. Much else is there -- but >no patently recognizable abductions and alien grays. Why not? >It's not an idle question. Why did no hint of alien abductions >surface anywhere prior to the Hill account (or, if you prefer, >the 1957 Villas Boas case)? If one assumes that today's >abductees were routinely being abducted in their early youth, as >they now claim? >We're also now being told that it's all in the family; >generation after generation is tracked, followed (implanted?) >and abducted. _Then where in God's name is the pre-Hill evidence >of same?_ Where, anywhere, is there evidence that abductions are >anything remotely resembling a "routine" or ongoing occurrence? Jean-Luc Rivera has compiled a dossier of UFO cases before the abduction era, in which abductions seem to have occured. I'll let him comment further. And as for references n the psychological literature, what exactly are we looking for? The full-blown, familiar abduction narrative, little grays, medical exams, and all? Or simply nocturnal visitations, strange lights, beings by the bed, reports of being carried off to strange places? Before we can even deal with these questions, we have to know how many accounts we find of _any_ paranormal experience. A 1975 paper by sociologist Andrew Greeley (cited in David Hufford's book "The Terror That Comes In The Night"), says that fully one-fifth of all Americans have had paranormal experiences. How many of them show up in the psychological literature? Let's put aside, for the moment, the many papers in which experimental psychologists try vainly to prove that people who've had paranormal experiences (including UFO sightings) or even believe in the paranormal must be suffering from some kind of psychopathology. How many case studies of paranormal experience are there? And, Dennis -- please don't tell me once again about the chapter in "The Fifty-Minute Hour," the one you've brought to my attention several times. I don't want anecdotes about paranormal case studies here and there. I want hard data about how often such things showed up in psychological literature in the past century. Before we have such numbers, we're in no position to say why any particular paranormal experience is or isn't discussed. I suspect we'd do better, in any case, to look at reports from the various societies for psychical research, and the like. I might draw a parallel here with out of body experiences. They've been reported endlessly, and written about early in this century under the "psychical research" heading. How often were they mentioned in mainstream psychological literature? For that matter, how often are they --- or abductions -- mentioned even now? How many case studies of abductees have appeared in psychological journals? (I know of only one, in a book by a hypnotherapist, and it's really not a complete case study. It's just a quick summary, in two or three pages, of an abduction case, with no evaluation of why the abductee in question might have thought he was abducted.) We might also want to look -- who's going to take on this gigantic task? -- in the records of mental hospitals, for cases that suggest abduction, but which weren't discussed in psychology papers. John Velez has written here, I believe, about his uncle, who he says was committed to a mental hospital well before the Hill case, because he insisted that white dwarfs came to his bedroom. For scientific purposes, we can't simply take John's word on this, but suppose we had medical records documenting that it really happened. How many other cases like it might there be? The only way we'd ever find them is by looking through the records of every patient ever committed to a mental hospital. For what it's worth, I've had three friends tell me -- not in an abduction context, and in two of the three cases before Budd Hopkins published any of his books -- that they've had phantom nocturnal visitors. Whether they'd also tell their therapists (should they be in therapy) might be a very different story. Finally, let me add some nuance to what Dennis is saying here. "Abductologists" have said very little about how many abductions may have occured in past generations. David Jacobs, in fact, is the only one I've known to make any definite statements at all, and what he says isn't quite what Dennis implies. Dave says he thinks the present abduction program might have begun in the 1890's. The number of abductees, in his view, was at first small, and then increased geometrically as the abducting aliens kept abducting the descendants of their original targets. Thus, there would have been many fewer abductees in past generations than there are now. Forgive me, Dennis, if I say that I'm not quite sure what you're claiming, as basic factual statements get muddied, just a bit, in the passion of your outurst here. But if you really are saying, as I think you are, that abduction researchers want us to believe there were as many abductions in the past as there allegedly are today -- where did you get that information? >So heartfelt emotions are involved? So what? Heartfelt evotions >are activated at Lourdes, Mecca and at any number of places and >under any number of circumstances, and they don't necessarily >indicate anything other than abiding proof of the fact that >humans are emotional beings. >Distress is just that, nothing more, nothing less. And as we all >know, not all "abductees" experience distress. I've never used distress as evidence that abductions are real. As for much else that Dennis said -- for instance, his claim that in the 1920's people felt much freer to talk about extraterrestrial visits -- I'll save any detailed comment for some other time. About the 1920's, though, I'm reminded of something George Bernard Shaw once wrote. To understand it, you need to know that Verdi wrote 26 operas, but that from the 1870's, at a guess, until the 1970's, most of them were almost never performed. The only way to get to know them was to find a printed score in a library, and either play it on the piano or read through it, hearing the music in your head. Shaw, who was a music critic in the 1890's, at some point wrote about some Verdi anniversary, which had elicited scholarly comments on many of those then-forgotten works. Shaw, predictably, wasn't impressed with what the scholars said, and above all with their comparisons between the unfamiliar works and operas like "Aida" and "Rigoletto," which any self-respecting opera fan knows virtually by heart. By that standard, Shaw said -- exaggerating, obviously, but in spirit quite right -- these scholars knew no more about the less familiar Verdi operas than they knew about "the tunes Miriam timbreled [in Biblical times] on the shores of the Red Sea." So, Dennis -- I know, as you do, that in the '20s, with radio very new, there was brief excitement about the chance of hearing radio messages from Mars. But are either of us qualified to state what the overall climate about alien visits might have been? About that, I bet, you and I know just as little as we do about Miriam. Cordially, Greg Sandow
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 13 Re: From: Dan Geib <geibdan@qtm.net> Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 15:21:42 -0800 Fwd Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 15:39:49 -0500 Subject: Re: >Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 05:35:12 +0000 >From: Dave Ledger <dledger@CABLEINET.CO.UK> >Subject: New UFO Videos Online >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>, >Greetings listmembers, >Tonight (Friday 12th) I posted about 15 new video clips onto the >UFO Scotland videos page. Some of the footage at least to my >knowledge, has not been available on the internet until now. >The videos are mostly MPG files and they are all available for >download to your hard drives but we must ask that they are only >used for research purposes only and not to be used for any >financial gain whatsoever. >The urls for these new clips are as follows: >http://wkweb5.cableinet.co.uk/dledger/video.htm >http://wkweb5.cableinet.co.uk/dledger/video1.htm <snip> Dave, What a great set of clips they are. I made a few links to you from UFO Folklore so that you get a bigger share of traffic that a good site like this should get Dan UFO Folklore ! http://www.qtm.net/~geibdan/framemst.html Dan's Magic in Michigan http://www.qtm.net/~geibdan/magician
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 13 Re: New UFO Videos Online From: Dan Geib <geibdan@qtm.net> Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 15:21:42 -0800 Fwd Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 15:59:49 -0500 Subject: Re: New UFO Videos Online >Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 05:35:12 +0000 >From: Dave Ledger <dledger@CABLEINET.CO.UK> >Subject: New UFO Videos Online >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>, >Greetings listmembers, >Tonight (Friday 12th) I posted about 15 new video clips onto the >UFO Scotland videos page. Some of the footage at least to my >knowledge, has not been available on the internet until now. >The videos are mostly MPG files and they are all available for >download to your hard drives but we must ask that they are only >used for research purposes only and not to be used for any >financial gain whatsoever. >The urls for these new clips are as follows: >http://wkweb5.cableinet.co.uk/dledger/video.htm >http://wkweb5.cableinet.co.uk/dledger/video1.htm <snip> Dave, What a great set of clips they are. I made a few links to you from UFO Folklore so that you get a bigger share of traffic that a good site like this should get Dan UFO Folklore ! http://www.qtm.net/~geibdan/framemst.html Dan's Magic in Michigan http://www.qtm.net/~geibdan/magician
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 13 Filer's Files #6-1998 From: Moderator UFO UpDates Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 16:10:02 -0500 Fwd Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 16:10:02 -0500 Subject: Filer's Files #6-1998 Source: http://ufoinfo.com/filer/1999/ff_9906.html FILER'S FILES Filer's Files #6-1998 MUFON Skywatch Investigations George A. Filer: MUFON Eastern Director, Majorstar@aol.com (609) 654-0020 February 11, 1999 Filer's Files: sponsored by Global Force Ltd PRESIDENT CARTER'S UFO SIGHTING REPORT TO NICAP During the autumn of 1973 hundreds of people throughout the United States reported UFOs to National Investigations Committee on Aerial Phenomena (NICAP). Both Governors Reagan of California and Carter have reported seeing UFOs, both later became Presidents. Jimmy Carter stated, "If I become President, I'll make every piece of information that this country has about UFO sightings available to the public." LEARY, GEORGIA =96On October 12, 1973, then Governor Carter responded to NICAP's inquiries about his sighting with a letter and a report form. Harry Lederman the Regional Investigator handled the investigation. The following is the essential answers to questions on the NICAP form: Name-Jimmy Carter, Occupation-Governor, Address: State Capitol Atlanta, phone 404 656-1776. Education -- Graduate in Nuclear Physics. Military Service=97Navy. Carter and ten members of the Leary Georgia Lions Club witnessed a UFO, shortly after dark, 30 degrees above the western horizon in October of 1969. The group of persons observed the object for ten to twelve minutes starting at 7:15 EST. The object was at one time as bright as the moon. The object changed size, color, and brightness. The object was sharply outlined and self-luminous. The object came close, moved away--came close then moved away. It was about the same size as the moon, maybe a little smaller, Varied from brighter/larger than planet to apparent size of moon. The object moved to distance then disappeared. Estimated distance to the object was difficult to determine, maybe 300-1000yards about 30 degrees above the horizon. Signed 9/18/73 Jimmy Carter. Editor's Note: Considering this testimony it is doubtful this was a planet or an aircraft. The brightest star, Sirius, has a magnitude of -1.4, Venus at its brightest can reach a magnitude of about -5, and the full moon is -12. Additional information is needed to determine the exact nature of the object and thus it remains as a viable unidentified object in my opinion. Numerous attempts have been made by Georgia MUFON to contact President Carter for further detailed analysis. NEW JERSEY BRICK -- Edward Pisciotta writes, "Just sending you a note because I also had a sighting near Route 70 on July 10, 1998." The craft was nearly round without wings, exhaust, or sound. It moved slow and low at only 500 to 1000 feet high as it passed over me. Half of it was black and the other half was emitting bright light. It tumbled very slowly as it moved. It caused me some medical problems immediately afterwards. The skin of the palms of my hands peeled and I had a spot on my chest that looked like a melanoma. I went to a dermatologist for that and it turned out to be non malignant. I also developed a lump that almost required surgery but it went away quickly with anti biotics. The peeling was within a few days of the sighting. My palms never peeled before. I think I was gripping the pole of a street sign to steady myself as I watched. The sky was clear and it was day light. This ship was a very highly visible solid object. Months earlier, my neighbor and I saw a high altitude, strobing light streak across the sky extremely fast. Thanks to Edward Pisciotta edp@webspan.net and Larry Clark, lclark@ibm.net. Editors Note: Many sightings have occurred on Route 70 that runs on the southern edge of Navy Lakehurst, Fort Dix, and McGuire Air Force Bases. NEW JERSEY FIRE IN THE SKY WILLIAMSTOWN -- On February 10, 1999, at about 9:30 PM Evelyn Galson and her spouse Russ were outside talking to a friend. It was a clear night with no clouds. As I was looking across the street, I saw fire fall from the sky. It started about tree top level and fell straight down in front of the motel across the street. It burned out quickly. There was no time for me to tell my husband to look since it was over so fast. It was strange that it started so low in the sky, just a little higher than the roof of that hotel. I could see the trees behind the fire, so it was actually in front of those trees. Thanks to Evelyn at evelyngalson@yahoo.com NORTH CAROLINA PEACHTREE -- JD says thanks for not giving our identities. I was in charge of the Computer Programming curriculum at the local community college nearly three years ago, when my wife and I saw a UFO. It was early spring on a warm day with the last fading hints of a beautiful sunset behind the mountains on the west side of the river. We pulled into Peachtree Quick Stop. Kathy went into the store and I stayed outside to get gas. Kathy stuck her head out and yelled, "John! Look at that!" She pointed across the road, out past the field by the General Textile plant. I saw a black shape streaking through the valley, over the river. It looked as if it had come from behind the hospital and was heading in the direction of Murphy. The first thing I noticed was that it was moving very quickly. The second thing was that it was making no sound at all. I was not particularly excited, and I certainly wasn't afraid. The clerk was telling Kathy that he had been watching it fly through the valley for the last thirty minutes, and it seemed to upset him. He kept asking, "What is that thing?" I went back outside, and watched it for a few minutes from the side of the road. Eventually, I crossed the road and watched it for nearly thirty minutes. It was a very dark, flat black, and I saw no lights reflecting off the object. It had red and green lights, but they were in the wrong configuration for an aircraft. It could fly at nearly hover speed, and then in a matter of a couple of seconds, it would accelerate to a speed I estimated to be 300 knots. This craft made no sound at all. It usually flew with the point of the boomerang pointed in the direction of flight, but at other times it seemed to be able to fly sideways just as easily. Perhaps this was an optical illusion. I saw no conventional directional controls such as aerilons, elevators, or vertical stabilizers. This triangular craft stood out in clear contrast as a black object between me and the mountains. On several occasions, it flew below the trees that line the river. It was about 100 or 200 yards from the road, and was clearly visible as it hovered in front of me. Then, it turned and streaked back up the valley towards the college. We then drove down the mountain and were crossing the bridge over the river as we entered Clay County. I saw something in my headlights and hit the brakes. We slowed to maybe 10 or 15 miles per hour and stared at the huge craft clearly visible in our car's headlights. It was nearly hovering just over the trees next to the road at the horse farm. We got to within 100 yards of the craft. It took nearly five seconds from the time the front of the craft went over the centerline of the road until the tail end crossed the same line In shape, it was a cross between a triangle and a shortened and thickened boomerang. There were no straight lines or sharp angles, it was smoothly curved over its entire shape. We could see the entire bottom of the craft. I slowed the car and stopped, just as it accelerated at a tremendous rate silently over the river back in the direction of Peachtree. I started driving up the road very slowly as Kathy looked for the craft to return. We had gone through Brasstown and were rounding the sharp curve back to the right just as Kathy called out, "There it is!" The craft flew down the valley to the fire station at an estimated speed of 100 knots. It changed course and flew over the Campbell Folk School, heading in the general direction of Martins Creek. We went on home and made separate drawings and decided the craft was 50 feet long with a 75 feet wing span. It was about ten to fifteen feet thick at the front, tapering smoothly to a thickness of about three or four feet at the rear. It was an extraordinary experience This is the first time I've told my story to the world-at-large. Thanks to JD. OHIO ELKTON-- January 25, 1999, a 26-year old was traveling to Middletown, Ohio and began noticing unusual air traffic. He stopped his car at the Madison Food Market on Route 122 and watched four odd lights in the sky. He placed a phone call home and Ms. Smith (name changed) was curious and drove around the area. Upon returning she noticed 'a star-like light that appeared over the barn.' Ms. Smith said, that the light was to the south of her location, and it became very bright. The object hovered for about 10-minutes, and flashing red and green lights could be seen. Ms. Smith said that two smaller 'lights' were also visible 'dancing' back and forth. They would disappear and reappear from behind the treeline. The two smaller white-colored objects blinked. During the event, a faint low-pitched humming or droning sound was heard. The objects appeared at a low elevation above her five-acre field. The main object was closer. The sightings were from 8:22 to 8:45 PM. "bigger and brighter than any airplane. Ms. Smith retrieved a pair of binoculars and viewed the main object, adding that it looked 'hazy.' The objects moved very smoothly and departed from view by slowly moving off, disappearing behind trees in the distance. No animal reactions were noted. The weather conditions were clear skies with very cold temperatures. She is familiar with routine air traffic. Thanks to Kenny Young UFO Research http://home.fuse.net/ufo/. Ken feels serious consideration should be given to misidentification of stars, as Ms. Smith stated that sky conditions were clear and the object, when viewed through binoculars, seemed 'hazy.' Visual misinterpretation of stars and planets could be a factor, but this does not account for the 'droning noise' reported. OREGON MCMINNIVILLE =96February 2, 1999. I know this might sound crazy but it is totally true. My friends and I were camping on his ranch about a mile from his house. We were sitting around the fire and we heard some noises in the bushes. So we went over to check it out. We came upon some weird footprints in the mud. There was a circle with 4 lines leading away from it (guess they would be toes). So we followed them. The curiosity got the best of us. We went through the woods and into a meadow when we saw something that looked like a walking tree except for the head. The creature was walking through the meadow at a more than casual pace. When we went to use a flashlight to look at it as it disappeared. About 2 hours later a strange light shot across the sky without sound. Thanks to: ijackson85@yahoo.com (Ian) CANADA MONTREAL =97 On February 5, 1999, Gabriel Allen, while driving into the city writes, "I passed over the Lac des Deux Montagnes bridge. I glanced to my right at 05:43 AM and noticed a smallish object emitting a pale white glow over the water. It was hovering, similar to a Harrier VTOL jet before landing. Another motorist and I pulled the car onto the shoulder to observe. As we watched, the object appeared to change places in the air. It must have moved incredibly fast to explain what we observed. I cannot quite pin down exactly what it did, but it was unlike the actions of any aircraft I have ever seen. A female motorist stopped and we directed her to look at the object above the lake. Then the UFO ascended sharply and dramatically and disappeared into the heavy cloud cover. All three of us experienced an intense vibration accompanied by a sound not unlike an intense thunder clap. The three of us exchanged names and numbers. As I entered the car and turned the ignition, a burst of static came over the radio and then quieted. I pressed the scan button to switch to my original channel, 95.9 FM, but the tuner selected a station, 02 MHz up the dial. This was also a dead station but instead of static a nonrandom periodic clicking came over the speakers accompanied by a slight hum. I hit scan again and the radio appeared to resume normal operation. Moreover, I checked my watch to note the time. It's a digital Timex, about six years old but with a relatively new battery (about three months old). The battery had completely worn out and my watch was dead. I replaced the battery today and the watch works fine. After the incident I developed a rash around my abdomen similar to hives. Large, localized swellings appear and move around my stomach and back. I am allergic to nuts so I am familiar with this reaction." Thanks to John Thompson and ISUR. (This report is suspect but we are investigating) Michael Strainic, Canadian National Director of MUFON reports that on November 9, 1998, pilots of an airliner flying from Alaska to California saw unusual unidentified lights in the sky. The flight was approximately 90 nautical miles west of the Sandspit, British Columbia, VOR station in the area of Queen Charlotte Islands, when one of the pilots asked their ground controller. "Do you have traffic for me?" The controller told the flight that he had no traffic, and confirmed with North Bay Air Defense that there were no aircraft within 200 nautical miles of their location. The pilots then reported a visual sighting of traffic at their 12, 1 and 3 o'clock positions. They observed three orange objects, and then two white objects. The pilots stated that they could possibly be flares. However, a check with the Rescue Coordination Centre confirmed there were no flares active in the area at this time. The pilots were flying in visual conditions in a dark night sky. The local time was approximately 7:27 PM. Since a Canadian military flight had reported sighting meteors in the same area the previous night, the pilots were asked if what they were observing might be meteors. Their answer was simple and direct: "They're not meteors." Checks with the military regarding the meteors of the previous night were met with the usual and predictable lack of interest. The airline flight number is on file with MUFON but is being withheld while the investigation continues. Thanks to Michael Strainic See http://www.renaissoft.com/ufocanada/. AURORA IN ALASKA Let me just take you up on the latest "Aurora" sighting in Alaska made by Warren A. Bill Rose writes I spoke with a leading aircraft recognition expert in an attempt to determine what aircraft details are visible at what range, allowing for aircraft size and atmospheric conditions. The opinion is that a 747 is approaching the limits of (unaided) recognition at about 7 miles distance. On this basis, it seems unlikely that an overall shape (described as a silver reflective triangle) could be determined at a distance of 15 miles, even if the craft was somewhat larger than an airliner. This report from Alaska is still very interesting and something unusual seems to be taking place, although we do need more detailed information before a reasonable assessment can be made. Thanks to Bill Rose. NORTHERN IRELAND LARNTOWN -- Kenneth Mundell video taped a flying triangle type aircraft on January 20, 1999, at 4:50 PM GMT over his house at Inver, Larne town, Co. Antrim, Northern Ireland, UK. He states, "I noticed the Tri-UFO [triangular UFO] coming from the East just about 1000 feet high traveling slowly at 30 mph to-40mph maximum speed. There was no sound coming from the craft. The camcorder 8 mm XR [extra resolution] tape is fantastic quality of the encounter that lasts a couple of minutes. When the UFO was directly over my house it changed direction slightly to a more Northerly one. Not noticeable in the MPEG is that the UFO spins round and 'skids' across the sky, which is an impossible task for any known aircraft. In October 1998, I witnessed an egg-timer 'X' shaped object over the Glynn near Larne and decided to buy a camcorder. It certainly paid off! There are stills on the Website. After careful examination of the tape there are at least two aircraft nearby. When the triangular object is flying away from the camera [slowly] there appears to be what seems to sound like a plain engine. The video can be seen at http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~kenm NEW ZEALAND FLYING DISC PHOTOGRAPHED GREYMOUTH -- On Saturday afternoon, January 16, 1999, people relaxing on the beach on South Island's western shore were startled by the cries of children who were "pointing to the western horizon. There was "a UFO was enjoying itself." The UFO, described as "a large opaque and shiny disc," zipped about in the blue sky over the Pacific Ocean for several minutes. "One intrepid adult took a photograph or two of the large opaque and shiny thing as it bounced, dived and then proceeded north in a flat trajectory. Everyone is waiting to see how the film comes out, which, considering the camera is not much more than a box Brownie, will be an event in itself." Greymouth is on the South Island about 160 kilometers west of Christchurch. ("The Press" New Zealand 1/21/99, "Unusual sighting at Greymouth." Many thanks to Errol Bruce- Knapp. Crass commercials: GET THE BEST REALTORS, HELP UFO RESEARCH As a special aid to our readers, we can help you obtain the best real estate experts in your area at no cost to you. Make sure you have a top notch agent, to buy or sell your home often your biggest investment. We provide free relocation information and consulting services from the largest and most respected firms. If you are planning to sell or buy a home and would like a top flight real estate agent give me a call at 609 654-0020 or e-mail me at Majorstar@aol.com. Please send your name, phone number, address, price range and location. MUFON JOURNAL For more detailed investigative reports subscribe by writing to 103 Oldtowne Road, Sequin, TX 78155-4099 or E-mail Mufon@aol.com. Filer's Files Copyright 1998 by George A. Filer, all rights reserved. Readers may post items from the Files on their Websites provided that they credit the newsletter and its editor by name and list the date of issue that the item appeared. Send your letters to me at Majorstar@aol.com. If you wish to keep your name confidential please so state.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 14 Conference & Sheffield Truth From: Tim Matthews <matthews@zetnet.co.uk> Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 21:41:54 -0000 Fwd Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 09:19:57 -0500 Subject: Conference & Sheffield Truth Dear All, On Saturday 27th February the joint LUFOS/IUN launch Conference is bringing together some of the best UFO researchers and investigators. One of the speakers at the event is Dr. David Clarke, who has investigated the controversial "Sheffield Incident" both in a professional and private capacity. He will be presenting, for the first time, the complete facts about the case in a specially-prepared lecture supported by video, slide and overhead projection. This lecture, and the special new IUN report on the "Sheffield Incident", will be on sale on the day and proceeds will be used to support similar research of a high standard. It is to be hoped that all concerned parties will be present on the day to hear a full accounting of the events which have been the focus for much debate on the UpDates forum. Jerry Anderson from Kent, a particularly able researcher, will also be present to give a remarkable account of his recent investigations that appear to have drawn a high degree of interest from several agencies. He will show some equally intriguing UFO video footage of an object filmed over Kent. Andy Roberts will present a definitive account of the Berwyn Mountain crash retrieval case and the prolific and popular Jenny Randles will also be lecturing. Jenny and Andy will discuss the Berwyn case in public. Their differing views have surfaced in the pages of "Fortean Times" in recent months..... James Diss, skeptic, will be talking about fake UFO photographs and footage. The latest stunning research on the subject of Man-Made UFOs will also be presented. From around 6pm the open discussion on the future of Ufology and our place in it will no doubt lead to heated exchanges! All in all a day not to be missed. A ground-breaking event where objectivity will, for once, reign supreme. I hope to see you all there. US attendees get in free!!!! Tim Matthews - Lancashire UFO Society. Tickets are selling well. Available for just =A37 (cheques to 'Lancashire UFO Society') from; The Secretary, Lancashire UFO Society, P.O. Box 15, Southport PR8 1GR, United Kingdom. Tel; (01704) 501765 and (01995) 600186.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 14 Re: Riddle of The Skies: Part 2 From: Neil Morris <neil@adm1.ph.man.ac.uk> Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 22:00:42 -0800 Fwd Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 09:27:29 -0500 Subject: Re: Riddle of The Skies: Part 2 >From: Tim Matthews <matthews@zetnet.co.uk> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: Re: Riddle of The Skies: Part 2 >Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 17:59:25 -0000 >This is all true and indeed Matthew Williams does have a >tape-recording of David admitting as much. I've heard the tape >by the way. >I know all about the Spoor story having been lucky enough to >speak with local researchers at length. >They seem to be honest. >Nevertheless, having been shown most of the 'better' material >whilst down at Union Pictures in London I have to say that there >are tremendous problems. How, for instance, did Spoor get >'air-to-ground' shots of "UFOs"?? >A hot air balloon? A sensor platform......? >Incidentally, both John Locker and I agreed within seconds that >the supposed "triangle" footage was in fact a film of two RAF >Tornados. >That is not to say that there isn't some intriguing footage >within the Spoor package but it is the case that he has had >access to a variety of editing equipment and this concerns me. >So does the fact that so many reports of high-strangeness' seem >to be occuring within a small local group and the >self-referencing nature of these is difficult to penetrate from >the point of view an interested investigator. >Of course the footage and people's experiences are totally >separate.. >I also heard a very unusual story about some of David's >master-tapes erasing themselves prior to his journey to >Nevada...... >It really is a strange business! Tim, I can only comment on the short piece of tape I have, it seems to contain 3 short clips, 2 of which show an object at a distance, even with optical zoom there's far from great definition in the images, in these 2 segments the object seems stationary or moving only very slowly. The tape appeared to be shot at or just after sunset or just before sunrise, the fact that the object seems to be uniformly illuminated to me seems more consistant with a "flat platform" structure both seen, and illuminated from below, it does not seem to have any shadows or shading, as I see it, any other configuration other than a flat surface in that position would present some variations, shadows, in it's surface illumination??. The 3rd segment seems to be shot well into twilight but seems to present the shape of the object sharpest, the enhanced shots do suggest a solid triangular shape with well defined edges, again the shape seems uniformly illuminated accross it's area, suggesting again a flat surface illuminated from below. As for this being a military aircraft, I've spent many more years than I like to remember visiting my wife's families cottage which isn't too far from RAF Valley on Anglesy North Wales, they do Fast Jet training with Hawk trainers, Jaguar's AND Tornado's, not to mention the variety of helicopters and heavy transports to-ing and fro-ing, so I'm not totally unfamiliar with what one looks like in the air, day or night. I'm well convinced these don't look like the object in the tape I saw. The comments I've made on the footage I saw are just that "comments", I cannot state that the footage is genuin and I didn't set out to do that. I don't think that's possible with any certanty JUST from a piece of video today, as the medium is so easily manipulated and it has such a poor image resolution, it can hide a multitude of sins. Film?...well thats horse of a different colour... The only way I would feel happy with ANY piece of tape would be if I had a nice clutch of 3rd party witnesses to go with it!. I think thats the only SAFE way to treat this form of medium with what can be done with digital manipulation today, AND the problem for UFO research is only going to get worse as technology improves. To repeat, I cannot say the tape is genuine, neither have I seen anything in the footage that say's it's a fake. To me the object exibits lighting characteristics consistant with a triangular platform observed from below, at distance, and illuminated from a very low angle, the enhanced images tend to support the triangle shape for the object, what puzzels me is the dark circular structure seen in the object as it moves off behind the tree. I'm struck that we are actually seeing the object more in side/rear elevation at this point rather from below as in the earlier shots, again I cannot prove this point, I'm rather "reading" it from the apparent motion the object makes as it moves off, it seems this "darker" area is almost the negative compliment to the central "light" seen on the object when viewed from below, just a thought. Neil. BUT unless there is independant coroberation of the sighting you must class this as "Not Proven" ------------------------------------------------------- Neil Morris@Home. Email: Neil@adm1.ph.man.ac.uk Web Site: http://adm2.ph.man.ac.uk/ -------------------------------------------------------
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 14 'The Uninvited'? From: Mike Farrell <mikefarr@midcoast.com.au> Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 08:49:04 +1100 Fwd Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 09:31:49 -0500 Subject: 'The Uninvited'? Hello, Has anyone seen or recorded that new TV program on Alien Abductions called 'The Uninvited'? Can anyone confirm if this program was aired in the States? I have not seen any talk about it on the mailing lists or newservices. Have you? Thanks Much! Mike Farrell Director of Project GUFONE (Global UFO Newsvideo Exchange) http://www.fan.net.au/~tkbnetw/mikes.htm http://www.ufor.asn.au -------------------------------------------- The Uninvited! An exciting new documentary on the alien abduction phenomenon is to be screened by The Learning Channel in the United States on 18 January. The Uninvited has been made by Transmedia Productions (the team responsible for the successful UFO documentary, Dreamland) It's possibly the most comprehensive program on the subject ever produced, and features interviews with the likes of Budd Hopkins, David Jacobs, John Mack, Whitley Strieber, Travis Walton, and Peter Robbins. There's also a rare interview with Linda Cortile, and footage of one of Budd's Support Group meetings, together with some sensational new cases, and a few surprises. But unlike so many programs on this subject, it's genuinely balanced, and contains contributions from those sceptical of the theory that the explanation for claims of alien abductions is extraterrestrial. There are interviews with Philip Klass, Dr Chris French (Head of the Psychology Department at Goldsmith's College) and Dr Susan Blackmore (Senior Lecturer in Psychology at the University of the West of England). The programme will be screened in the UK by Sky One, at a date yet to be decided. But once it's out in the States, expect much Internet debate.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 14 'Strange Days...Indeed' - Tonight: Nick Balaskas From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 10:41:44 -0500 Fwd Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 10:41:44 -0500 Subject: 'Strange Days...Indeed' - Tonight: Nick Balaskas From: UFO UpDates - Toronto On 'Strange Days... Indeed' tonight we'll be talking with Nick Balaskas. Nick's deep and abiding interest in UFO phenomena, his work at York University in Toronto and his network of contacts around the Canadian university system place him in a unique positon. Nick is seen, by fellow UFO researchers and investigators to be a neutral and reliable access point to the scientific community. Peers and students regard Nick's ability to gather anomalous items for study by them as a refreshing and intriguing departure from the kind of research they usually do. For the past couple of years Nick and his colleagues have had the opportunity to examine a number of alleged UFO-related articles. Implants, x-rays, debris, film, body-parts and clothing have all been closely studied by university specialists across Canada. Join my co-host Jonn Kares and I on 'Strange Days...Indeed' as we discuss some of Nick's research results with him. The program starts at 11:00pm EST on 1010 CFRB AM - 50,000 watts 'Clear-Channel' 6070khz Shortwave and you can listen via your Real Player at: www.cfrb.com/cfrb.ram To call the program 'live', dial: On-Air 416-872-1010 1-800-561-CFRB [all over North America] *TALK [local mobiles] ebk
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 14 'Alien Abduction' - A Book Review From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 11:13:45 -0500 Fwd Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 11:13:45 -0500 Subject: 'Alien Abduction' - A Book Review Source: Fortean Times #119 March 1999 [North America] page 56 ------ Alien Abduction Peter Brookesmith Blandford Cassell, London. 1998, hb =A315.99, pp176, index, illus. ISBN 0-7137-2701-0 Peter Brookesmith's latest fearless foray into the bogs of contemporary ufology bluntly states its premise on the second page of text: "To step outside the rituals of the 'believer' versus 'skeptic' debate: for that has long since grown stale, and it often seems that the two sides are shouting so loudly that neither can hear what the other is saying." But even the middle road has to lead somewhere and it's apparent where the author is headed here, long before the concluding chapter is reached. While it may not be possible to completely rule out the argument that some abductions are literal, physical events as described by the 'victims' (not necessarily a totally apt description we come to learn), there's a lot of existing mystery about the mind and mental states that need clarifying and eliminating. After demolishing the exceedingly optimistic faith shown in regressive hypnosis, Brookesmith makes haggis out of three other shibboleths of the abduction-as literal-event camp: namely content, consistency, and number. Via interviews with abductees encountered on his own or through contacts while doing field research in America =96 Brookesmith pretty much paves over any argument that abductees are all telling the same basic tale of being kidnapped and greyhandled. Turns out there's a whole zoo of alien abductors out there, not all of them following the same manual. But what about the supposed consistency and sequence of the eight stages of abduction, first identified by folklorist Edward Bullard in 1987 and touted by many literalists ever since? (In order, they are capture, examination, conference, tour, otherworldly journey, theophany, return and aftermath.) Seems the consistency may not have been there from the start. Fully ~8 per cent of the 270 or so abductions Bullard studied at the time didn't follow the 'correct' order. What about the 62 per cent that did? Elementary, says Brookesmith, drawing on the work of Martin Kottmeyer. "To put it simply, Bullard's correct order is the right way to tell a story." Citing my own calculations elsewhere, Brookesmith observes that the huge numbers alleged for abductions (3.7 million Americans alone, according to one poll~ collapse under their own weight. Extrapolated worldwide, we would be looking at more than 80 million abductions in the last half-century, perhaps many times more if individuals are abducted repeatedly throughout their lifetime, as some advocate. If abductions aren't to be taken literally, however, how are they to be taken? Here Brookesmith's middle road runs into a few potholes of its own, arguably because there is no single easy answer, as the author himself admits, but a constellation of causes or circumstances that can't be readily circumscribed. Thus some will take his conclusion =96 that "Whichever way we read the myth, it insists on telling us that we are the aliens" =96 as little more than a platitude. But then one would have to ask, among other questions, why the aliens' concerns =96 about issues of gene extraction, manipulation, and future survivability =96 expressed in their reported actions while simultaneously denied in their evident lack of emotions, so closely mimic our own current concerns. Dennis Stacy
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 14 Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality From: Judith Dale <judithdale@earthlink.net> Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 14:19:42 -0800 Fwd Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 11:20:35 -0500 Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com> >Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 13:40:46 EST >To: updates@globalserve.net >Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >>Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 21:29:38 -0600 (CST) >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >>From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net> >>Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >>Jeff, >>I couldn't agree with you more. >>And Greg, this is not to gang-jump on you, but it really is time >>for people with these particularly extraordinary claims to >>provide, not extraordinary evidence, so much as simple, mundane >>evidence of their claims. >There is no simple, mundane, evidence of the claims of >abductees, simply because there is only the word of the >abductee, that some "thing" has happened. The only evidence I >hold, which demonstrates that I have been abducted, is the word >of a worried mother when I dissappeared for two hours as a very >young man.... perhaps 6 or 7 years old. That this missing time >coincides with memory of an abduction experience should be >evidence of the nature asked for. Greetings all, As I've been following this discussion, regarding 'Abduction - The Issue of Reality', I've found myself feeling angry, frustrated, stunned, and finally amused about the hue and cry for 'proof'. I tend to agree with Jim's comments, above. That is, that there is often no simple and mundane evidence to support the claims of abductees. However, Jim does have the observations and words of his mother, that he disappeared for two hours coinciding with his memory of an abduction experience occurring during that time. I consider that evidence leaning strongly toward 'proof'. In my own life, I've had two experiences involving missing time, the 'proof' of which can only be corroborated by my clock, and my partner, at the time. I do not consider these experiences abductions, because I consented to go after being asked first. On both occasions, my clock radio failed to come on at the time it had been set for. Actually, it didn't come on at all, resulting in both myself and my partner being late for work. Frankly, had it not been for the fact that the clock radio had been interfered with, I would have merely considered these two particular experiences as extremely vivid and real seeming dreams. In both situations, I was approached by beings who said,"We have information for you, but you need to come with us to receive it. Are you willing to come with us?". Each time, I considered the offer and asked myself if I was willing to go with them. I didn't sense any danger, and I was curious, so I consented. Each event ended with me being told something to the effect of, "that's all for now". On the first occasion, I found myself sitting on the floor by the bed, feeling disoriented and stunned. On the second occasion, I found myself sitting up in bed, feeling disoriented and stunned. On both occasions, I looked at the clock and was amazed. With the first event, it was one hour past the time the radio should have come on. With the second event, it was almost two hours past wakeup time. Both times, I checked the clock. Yes, it was set. No, I hadn't forgotten to set it the night before. It should have come on. There had been no power failure, I had set it, it simply didn't come on. The simple mundane evidence is that the clock radio failed to come on at the designated preset time, resulting in two people being late for work. I could say, "Well, the clock didn't work right, that's what happened". Yes, on the surface it would seem so. Except, I was shown things and given information, which has proven to be very relevant to the work I'm doing now, as a nurse working with the client population I do. Personally, I'm satisfied that these were real events in my life. Oh, I forgot to mention in the preceding, in event #1 I was taken to a 'ship', and in event #2 I was taken to a 'space station'. Perhaps, it is the case for those who cry the loudest for proof, that they've not had such extraordinary experiences in their lives, thus, cannot fathom that such events are real. Or, perhaps, they've had extraordinary events, but find the memory of such too overwhelming or odd to be believed. I don't know. However, I do maintain that the general discussion regarding needing 'proof', is 'fiddling while Rome burns'. Due to experiences I began having as a child, the experiences I've heard from those that I work with, the experiences friends have shared, events I've witnessed, I've come to the conclusion that there is far, far more than the mundane world that greets us each day. Yes, I do think that our perceptions are colored by cultural influences, but I don't think that those influences negate the reality of what is being experienced by many. Cultural influences may only serve to provide a framework for explanation. Infact, I am beginning to think that even terming some events as extraordinary, is a misnomer. A misnomer imposed by cultural influences. Well, enough out of me, for now. Judith Dale
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 14 'Alien Abduction' - A Book Review From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 11:13:45 -0500 Fwd Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 11:13:45 -0500 Subject: 'Alien Abduction' - A Book Review Source: Fortean Times #119 March 1999 [North America] page 56 ------ Alien Abduction Peter Brookesmith Blandford Cassell, London. 1998, hb =A315.99, pp176, index, illus. ISBN 0-7137-2701-0 Peter Brookesmith's latest fearless foray into the bogs of contemporary ufology bluntly states its premise on the second page of text: "To step outside the rituals of the 'believer' versus 'skeptic' debate: for that has long since grown stale, and it often seems that the two sides are shouting so loudly that neither can hear what the other is saying." But even the middle road has to lead somewhere and it's apparent where the author is headed here, long before the concluding chapter is reached. While it may not be possible to completely rule out the argument that some abductions are literal, physical events as described by the 'victims' (not necessarily a totally apt description we come to learn), there's a lot of existing mystery about the mind and mental states that need clarifying and eliminating. After demolishing the exceedingly optimistic faith shown in regressive hypnosis, Brookesmith makes haggis out of three other shibboleths of the abduction-as literal-event camp: namely content, consistency, and number. Via interviews with abductees encountered on his own or through contacts while doing field research in America =96 Brookesmith pretty much paves over any argument that abductees are all telling the same basic tale of being kidnapped and greyhandled. Turns out there's a whole zoo of alien abductors out there, not all of them following the same manual. But what about the supposed consistency and sequence of the eight stages of abduction, first identified by folklorist Edward Bullard in 1987 and touted by many literalists ever since? (In order, they are capture, examination, conference, tour, otherworldly journey, theophany, return and aftermath.) Seems the consistency may not have been there from the start. Fully ~8 per cent of the 270 or so abductions Bullard studied at the time didn't follow the 'correct' order. What about the 62 per cent that did? Elementary, says Brookesmith, drawing on the work of Martin Kottmeyer. "To put it simply, Bullard's correct order is the right way to tell a story." Citing my own calculations elsewhere, Brookesmith observes that the huge numbers alleged for abductions (3.7 million Americans alone, according to one poll~ collapse under their own weight. Extrapolated worldwide, we would be looking at more than 80 million abductions in the last half-century, perhaps many times more if individuals are abducted repeatedly throughout their lifetime, as some advocate. If abductions aren't to be taken literally, however, how are they to be taken? Here Brookesmith's middle road runs into a few potholes of its own, arguably because there is no single easy answer, as the author himself admits, but a constellation of causes or circumstances that can't be readily circumscribed. Thus some will take his conclusion =96 that "Whichever way we read the myth, it insists on telling us that we are the aliens" =96 as little more than a platitude. But then one would have to ask, among other questions, why the aliens' concerns =96 about issues of gene extraction, manipulation, and future survivability =96 expressed in their reported actions while simultaneously denied in their evident lack of emotions, so closely mimic our own current concerns.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 14 Re: The Sheffield Incident From: Max Burns <AlienHype@aol.com> Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 17:13:18 EST Fwd Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 13:43:43 -0500 Subject: Re: The Sheffield Incident >Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 06:45:38 -0500 >From: David Clarke <dclarke14@compuserve.com> >Subject: The Sheffield Incident >To: UFO Updates <updates@globalserve.net> >>From: Martin Jeffrey <mbkc67@dial.pipex.com> >>To: <Updates@globalserve.net> >>Subject: Re: The Sheffield Incident >>Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 18:14:04 -0000 ><snip> >>This case was nothing more than a mix of coincidence and >>hysteria inadvertently caused by the police and Sheffield media. >>The RAF, broke the sound barrier over Sheffield and the Howden >>Moors twice and this coincided with sightings of a low flying >>aircraft. ><snip> >Martin's independent evidence bears out what I have been saying >about this 'incident' for the best part of two years. That would be nice but as the two of you are now re-writing the incident together, so its hardly independent is it? UpDates readers, we all know that it is an elementary rule of logic that you cannot prove a negative. So David, you are saying about evidence to prove something did not occur is out of line with what we know about logic. >As for the "over-ambitious investigator" to whom Martin refers: >Max Burn's most recent, voluminous, posts on UpDates are >indicative of his confusing fantasy with reality to the point >where he is actually playing a part in his own episode of the >X-Files - and this one has more holes in the plot than average. Actually David I do not watch the X-Files, and indeed do not have a TV. I believe that you do have not the ability or the qualifications to be making psychological analysis of myself and therefore it is just speculation on your part. In the hope of making myself out to be some sci-fi nut feeding on my own self delusion? >The more he posts to the Internet, the more it become obvious >how little he knows about the geography of the area he is >discussing, the rules of evidence and even basic investigation >techniques. I know plenty about the area and with the amount of time I have spent in around the surrounding area I do know that the Peak District is not one of the, as you put it: "Most densely populated area in Europe" >I will dealing with his claims and allegations concerning my >"intimidation" of witnesses and other investigators in a >separate post. Why do you need time to get your cover story worked out? >My experience and qualifications - including a PhD from the >University of Sheffield, ten years working as an investigative >journalist, and a series of awards for my work - speak for >themselves. Actually they do not speak for themselves. Indeed when one of my friends covertly E-mailed you about the Sheffield incident, they asked you what you knew about Dragons in light of you pontificating about your credentials. you wrote 20 pages about myself and the Sheffield case. With regard to Dragons - bearing in mind, readers of UpDates, that Dr David Clark's Doctorate is in Mythology & Folklore - you said of the enquiry regarding Dragons to Kaosquasar@Aol.com... quote: "I dont have a lot of knowledge about those" Well David Clark, let me help you out here. Dragons have been reported in various cultures from the Chinese and Russian. Indeed almost all historical records dating back 2000yrs have of stories of dragons, including the stories from British history and folklore Hope I helped you out there, so perhaps your comments do not speak for themselves. >I am keeping Mr Dagenhart, in particular, informed about what >Max is claiming and this may lead to separate action elsewhere. >Some of those people whom Max is invoking are now starting to >post their separate evidence to this List, and he will soon >find himself having to eat his own words. I am sorry David I will not be eating my words. If you are inferring a court action with regard to Mr Dagenhart, then I welcome it and will have a full media turnout to hear the reasons why I will not back down regarding what has been investigated by me and was originally discussed with Mr Dagenhart. Your professional conduct will no doubt come into question during a potential court case, and your motivations for acting in the manner in which you have. As you must remember I have the Jonathan Dagenhart interview on tape. You have chosen not to reply to any of the serious allegations I am making regarding your claims: 1... What I discussed with Dagenhart. 2....Things you claim that I never asked. The transcript of the interview clearly shows your assesment to be incorrect. Yes, let Mr Dagenhart take this to court and I will supply the proper national media for the case. >All I ask is that readers who are interested in this 'incident' >should acquaint themselves with both sets of evidence before >making their own minds up. What's up David? Concerned that you have been rumbled in light of my previous posts in PT1 & PT2? That the corner has been turned? That the readers of UpDates are now starting to see the real you and the fact that I am simply a man in search of the truth whatever that turns out to be? The truth is not to be meted out by yourself, especially since you have now been uncovered. I insist that you answer the points from my previous posts before you start trying to assist your buddies. Bear in mind that the claims from my previous posts are either backed up by text written in your own words or by audio-recorded conversations in connection with the Sheffield incident. You are in a corner my friend. Best if you let it drop. >My account appeared in the UK UFO >Magazine in July/August last year and full updated 40 page >report will be available from the Independent UFO Network >shortly. More procrastinating and pontificating in the hope of bolstering your work of fiction - never mind the fact that UFO magazine UK is under careful watch in light of recent articles and comments by Quest Publications, regarding the subject matter in general. Even Tim Matthews has some serious concerns about the acts and motivations of Quest Publications in light of certain elements of ufology. Please do not push for me to reveal what they are. These matters are in the hands of others and it is not for me to reveal the information at this time. >The twists and turns of this case have illustrated the dichotomy >that exists in the UK between serious ufology and the lunatic >fringe. I hope that the readers of UpDates will see for themselves in my posts that I am neither lunatic nor in need of psychological help. It is in fact another clear attempt by Mr Clark to paint a false picture of myself and others of different beliefs to Mr Clark and his friends. >Anyone like myself who ventures into the muddy waters and tries >to take a serious and scientific look at the problem is >demonised and pilloried by that lunatic fringe. I have not demonised you, in fact you are the only one making slurs against others whose opinions differ from yourself. Readers of UpDates you know the old story: "If you cannot get the case destroyed, destroy the man" >Their only method of responding to reasonable questions about >their extreme claims is to throw the words "debunker", "skeptic" >and "cover-up" like confetti. This is a perfect example of reverse psychology. >It's a highly convenient way of avoiding having to produce a >logical argument that adheres to the scientific method like the >rest of us have to follow. The word of Max is all very >amusing for those of us watching from the outside - but what >worries me is the damage that it is doing to the reputation of >ufology as a whole. That's it David, try to gather your flock. You say "logical argument". I have caught you out on a number of points in my previous posts to UpDates, to which, as of yet, you have not responded. You cannot get more logical than that. >How can any serious UFO investigator and researcher expect >scientists and Governments to take a serious look at the UFO >evidence when the subject is entertaining unscientific claims of >the kind he is promoting? How can any serious UFO investigator and researcher expect scientists and governments to take a serious look at the UFO evidence when the subject is full of disinformation, the like of which I have exposed you as being involved with in my previous post One final point: >If Max wants to put an end to this saga once and for all, there >is a quite simple way of doing it. We can argue about it on >UpDates for years, but if he is so confident he has evidence >which can "prove" (his words) that NATO lost a jet over the Peak >District (with the loss of life) as a result of a UFO incident - >then he should take his evidence to the appropriate authorities >for an independent investigation. There you go again David . In my previous post of a few days ago I actually wrote: "And some news will be breaking that is really going to put the cat among the pigeons, regarding the Sheffield Incident. independent information via another researcher who is going on the record that he was in the company of for a few days while on holiday with a N.A.T.O. Tornado jet pilot. who has confirmed off the record that the incident over the peak district was all the Americans fault, and indeed the nights events culminated in the loss of a N.A.T.O. Tornado Jet, resulting in the death of a pilot..." You see what I am getting at, readers of UpDates? Mr Clark cannot even report something correctly that was posted on UpDates only a few days ago... >It is a criminal offence in the United Kingdom to hide a dead >body or the remains of a dead body from the HM Coroner - and >that is in effect what Max is claiming has happened in this >case. Who said the MOD have hidden this body? Let me bring you up to speed David. My brother served 15 years in the UK Military - including the Falklands conflict, in which he was on board the Canberra. If you know any thing about that conflict, the only people on board the ship were, Marines/Special Forces. He also three tours in Northern Ireland and two tours in Germany. My Uncle served 22 years in the RAF.. My family has a long record of military service. One time my brother was badly injured, a senior officer came to our home to inform my parents that he was alive. When my mother asked how he had been injured he said. "All I can say is that your son was injured on a mission in defence of the realm" And anyway what I am talking about is a N.A.T.O. pilot or co-pilot and would be dealt with by N.A.T.O. Even if it were a British N.A.T.O. Pilot or co-pilot in question, the statement would go something like, your son/daughter/husband/wife lost their life on a classified mission and died with honour in defence of the realm, etc. I know this to be right. >I challenge Max to present his "report" and conclusions to HM >Coroner for South Yorkshire. Christopher Dorries, at the >Medico-Legal Centre, Sheffield, by March 1 this year. There you go again - you and Martin laying down the rules and making demands. I say this to you David - when I have what I need to prove this case. 1. The name of the pilot or co-pilot who has died 2. The name of the air base where this plane took off from 3..The registration number of the crashed Tornado.. You will be the last to know, Whether or not this was the TR3B or an extra terrestrial Triangle, whether or not this is a case of hostile action or pilot error or simple plane malfunction while on an escort duty or interception. I am quite certain that we are dealing with a crashed Tornado, a dead pilot or co-pilot, and I continue with my search for the truth... And on a final note, I demand that you answer the allegations of your deception regarding this case from points raised in my previous posts in response to you - from the posts called Sheffield Pt1 & Pt2 >If Max fails to present his evidence by March 1 then it will be >obvious he has none, and readers can draw their own conclusions. >It's time to put up or shut up once again, Mr Burns. Have the readers of UpDates ever heard something so outrageous, demanding a time limit on my investigation? Tut, tut, tut, Mr Clark. Its time for Mr Clark to answer the points I raised in my previous posts Sheffield PT1 & PT2... If any reader wishes to have a copy of the Jonathan Dagenahart interview then email myself or for the updated full report email myself or you contact Roy Hale at: roy.hale@virgin.net Regarding the excellent news stand publication Down to Earth. The Sheffield case is being featured over three issues... My story regarding this case will also be appearing in the States in Unknown Mag, for details of this excellent Mag and how to obtain it contact Chris Flemming at UNKNWNMAG@aol.com I will also be presenting the case to the Bufora membership at the university of London Lectures Sat June 5th 1999 (opposite Madame Tussauds) Details from Malcoum Robinson at Judithjaafar@compuserve.com. So you will see people are listening to me in the UK and Stateside, despite the claims of Mr Clark and his few friends... Ufology unfolding before your very eyes,
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 14 Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net> Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 18:32:06 -0600 (CST) Fwd Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 13:59:03 -0500 Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 15:08:35 -0500 <snip> >You have, of course, surveyed (in remoreless detail) the >psychological literature from the turn of the century till >today. No, of course not. But I am widely read (ahem!), and some of those who I read are even more widely read than I am. Collectively, we continue to draw a blank concerning a convincing, say, pre-1960, abduction account. >As Dennis perfectly well knows, many writers have found >parallels to the abduction experience in folklore and religious >history, in cultures throughout the world, from ancient times >until today. I'd suggest he argue with them, instead of me. I'm >not impressed with the way most of these writers make these >parallels -- I can't conclude as easily as they do (a) that >abductions aren't real because folk beliefs in other cultures >are too much like the abduction narrative, or (b) that >abductions _are_ real but can't be carried out by >extraterrestrial beings, because that version of the story is >only our own culture's version of it. I didn't suggest a variation of either a or b. What I suggested was that certain abductionologists have claimed or suggested (the choice is yours) that the modern day abduction is probably at least 50-60 years older than we originally thought it was. If so, including any meaningful numbers at all, then I suggested that there should be ample, or at least some, evidence of same. <snip> >And as for references n the psychological literature, what >exactly are we looking for? The full-blown, familiar abduction >narrative, little grays, medical exams, and all? Or simply >nocturnal visitations, strange lights, beings by the bed, >reports of being carried off to strange places? I would think that we would be looking for something like what is routinely referred to as today's typical abduction, preferably with hybrid offspring. But perhaps you don't accept the notion of a typical abduction, either? >Before we can even deal with these questions, we have to know >how many accounts we find of _any_ paranormal experience. A 1975 >paper by sociologist Andrew Greeley (cited in David Hufford's >book "The Terror That Comes In The Night"), says that fully >one-fifth of all Americans have had paranormal experiences. How >many of them show up in the psychological literature? Let's put >aside, for the moment, the many papers in which experimental >psychologists try vainly to prove that people who've had >paranormal experiences (including UFO sightings) or even believe >in the paranormal must be suffering from some kind of >psychopathology. How many case studies of paranormal experience >are there? >And, Dennis -- please don't tell me once again about the chapter >in "The Fifty-Minute Hour," the one you've brought to my >attention several times. I don't want anecdotes about paranormal >case studies here and there. I want hard data about how often >such things showed up in psychological literature in the past >century. Before we have such numbers, we're in no position to >say why any particular paranormal experience is or isn't >discussed. Greg, Well, I'm not going to do your reading for you, if that's what you want. If you want a starter citation, look no further than Hilary Evans's article, "Of Mars and Mediums," which appeared in the Sept/Oct 1986 issue of IUR. Reports of paranormal phenomena in general? You might start with Frederic W. H. Myers's two-volume Human Personality and Its Survival of Bodily Death (Longmans, Green & Co., London, 1903), and maybe a few works by Herbert Thurston, such as The Physical Phenomena of Mysticism, to name but a couple of titles within easy eyesight. My point, however, which you seem to have ignored, was that the cultural climate regarding such matters was quite different then (when abductions supposedly began) than it is now. As a consequence, I suggested, no climate of ridicule would have surrounded alien encounter experiences any more than the other experiences which were being freely reported at the time. My next question was, so why don't we see 'em? Seemed like a logical follow on to me. Won't mention 50-Minute Hour again, promise. Didn't mention it in my last post, either. Glad to see, though, that you've finally tracked down a copy and read it. I cite things and you don't like it; I don't cite things and you don't like it. You're a hard man to please, Mr. Sandow! BTW, have your read John Fowles's The Maggot? (J. Clark will correct me if I got the title wrong.) >I suspect we'd do better, in any case, to look at reports from >the various societies for psychical research, and the like. I >might draw a parallel here with out of body experiences. They've >been reported endlessly, and written about early in this century >under the "psychical research" heading. How often were they >mentioned in mainstream psychological literature? Your point's well taken, but then so is mine. In days past, there wasn't the sharp dichotomy between things officially psychological and officially paranormal that we see today. In effect, we were just in the sorting out process at the time. (Whether rightly or wrongly, of course, is the matter of another discussion entirely.) That said, the Society for Psychical Research and its journal were highly regarded, were, in fact, _mainstream_ for the times. In short, the perfect place for an abduction account, or anything remotely resembling same, to be written up in, assuming that it wouldn't have gone to some other mainstream journal in the first place. >For that matter, how often are they --- or abductions -- >mentioned even now? How many case studies of abductees have >appeared in psychological journals? (I know of only one, in a >book by a hypnotherapist, and it's really not a complete case >study. It's just a quick summary, in two or three pages, of an >abduction case, with no evaluation of why the abductee in >question might have thought he was abducted.) You'll have to ask the abductees and the psychologists that one. My own answer would be a rather long treatise, I'm afraid. Besides, I was basically asking about earlier times, based on what abductees are alleging now. >We might also want to look -- who's going to take on this >gigantic task? -- in the records of mental hospitals, for cases >that suggest abduction, but which weren't discussed in >psychology papers. John Velez has written here, I believe, about >his uncle, who he says was committed to a mental hospital well >before the Hill case, because he insisted that white dwarfs came >to his bedroom. For scientific purposes, we can't simply take >John's word on this, but suppose we had medical records >documenting that it really happened. How many other cases like >it might there be? The only way we'd ever find them is by >looking through the records of every patient ever committed to a >mental hospital. Well, why not ask John or his uncle for copies of his uncle's medical records? Then we can ask the psychologist, or whoever it was that had him committed, why they didn't think accounts of being abducted by white dwarfs weren't worthy of being written up and submitted for publication. <snip> >Finally, let me add some nuance to what Dennis is saying here. >"Abductologists" have said very little about how many abductions >may have occured in past generations. David Jacobs, in fact, is >the only one I've known to make any definite statements at all, >and what he says isn't quite what Dennis implies. Dave says he >thinks the present abduction program might have begun in the >1890's. The number of abductees, in his view, was at first >small, and then increased geometrically as the abducting aliens >kept abducting the descendants of their original targets. Thus, >there would have been many fewer abductees in past generations >than there are now. Forgive me, Dennis, if I say that I'm not >quite sure what you're claiming, as basic factual statements get >muddied, just a bit, in the passion of your outurst here. But if >you really are saying, as I think you are, that abduction >researchers want us to believe there were as many abductions in >the past as there allegedly are today -- where did you get that >information? > If you'll go back and read my original post, you'll see that I said "hundreds, thousands, or millions." So let's say it's hundreds in 1900, thousands by 1920, hundreds of thousands by 1940, and millions by 1990. I don't think I ever suggested that the Roper Report numbers were supposed to apply, say, to 1905, 1915, 1925 or 1935. My point was: whatever the numbers, where is the evidence of same outside the contemporary UFO literature? My larger point was: where were these newly introduced aspects of the abduction phenomenon (abductions since childhood, generation from generation, hybrid babies, and so on) at the time Bullard wrote his classical, oft-cited study of same? And that was only a mere decade ago. My other point was: howcome these new introductions so closely parallel prominent social and cultural concerns, anxieties contemporaneous with the new material, or shadings, which abductees are only now reporting? <snip> >So, Dennis -- I know, as you do, that in the '20s, with radio >very new, there was brief excitement about the chance of hearing >radio messages from Mars. But are either of us qualified to >state what the overall climate about alien visits might have >been? About that, I bet, you and I know just as little as we do >about Miriam. >Cordially, >Greg Sandow Greg, See most of the above and then some. Radio was only a half or quarter of it. The telescope was also involved. Astronomer Lowell (and others) were seeing canals on Mars. Claims of beings seen on the Moon, via telescope, were also common at the time. And of course the original War of the Worlds by H. G. Wells had also already appeared, along with The Time Machine. And don't confine me to the '20s. The historical point is clearly there, if you want to read the existing literature. Psychology, philosophy, and, for that matter, physics, were not nearly as well separated or delineated from the so-called paranormal as they are today. I wouldn't expect to see contemporary accounts claiming that people had been abducted by aliens from Zeti Reticuli. But I would expect to see accounts of diminuitive gray dwarfs if they were operative at the time, as Jacobs apparently believes. Much later, say in the '50s or '60s, I would have expected a handful of such cases to have surfaced in the pediatric literature, if nowhere else, given anticipated concerns of distressed parents. A few confirmed cases of missing fetuses along the way would be welcome as well. Much, if not most of this, of course, could have been done without reference to any alien involvement, suspected or otherwise. Dennis
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 14 Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality From: John Rimmer <magonia@magonia.demon.co.uk> Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 10:15:13 +0000 Fwd Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 14:18:38 -0500 Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com> >Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 13:40:46 EST >To: updates@globalserve.net >Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >You have not been paying attention to posts right here on this >news list. There have been several well known abductees with >direct recall of their experiences, having a family history of >such goings on. It has occurred in my own family. But the >perception of the event was, by virtue of the level of education >and knowledge, misconstrued as being religious, paranormal et >al. Yes, but the point is that these family histories of abduction experiences have only surfaced as memories in the last 10-15 years. Where are the _contemporary_ records of abductions or abduction-type experiences in previous generations? Except, of course, for the folklore-type abductions beloved of the pstcho-sociologists, which abductologists reject as an analogue of the modern abduction experience. All the information about pre-Hill/AVB come from *memories* which have been recorded in the last decade. >Actually you are again mistaken. An abduction experience, a >remembered abduction experience, occurred to me in about 1960 >ish. My recall is rather vivid. This event was shared by a >friend, with whom I was hunting on that day. My friend had >similar recall but had been living half way across the country >for the past 30 years. I had lost contact with him until only >last year, when I found him via a search engine. He wrote me >with some memories of that same trip, and memories which he has >had for these nearly 38 years. He wrote me with those memories. >They were discussed and rediscussed. He recently came to NY to >renew the acquaintence. Our memories are nearly identical... >with the exception of the first few moments of the event. He >remembered a small family of "deer" and I remembered a small >family of rabbits... he was loaded for deer. I was loaded for >small game using a shotgun. He had a rifle... Where either you or your friends memories recorded or reported anywhere before you started discussing it betwen yourselves? How can you be sure that in discussing it you have not unwittingly confabulated a joint memories. Who took the lead in the discussions? Just _how_ independent are your separate memories? -- John Rimmer www.magonia.demon.co.uk Abandon hope all ye who press Enter here
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 14 Re: 'Chrome Football' Shuttle Footage From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 14:47:04 -0500 Fwd Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 14:16:15 -0500 Subject: Re: 'Chrome Football' Shuttle Footage >From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@get2net.dk> >To: updates@globalserve.net >Subject: 'Chrome Football' Shuttle Footage >Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 04:47:22 GMT >Source: "alt.paranet.ufo". >Stig >*** >From: "mukker" <mukker@chezmux.freeserve.co.uk> >Newsgroups: alt.paranet.ufo >Subject: Shuttle footage >Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 02:02:33 -0000 >There's a three-part, three-hour long UFO documentary being >shown in the UK on Channel 4. (Riddle of the Skies, Union >Skyline Prod.) They've already shown some shuttle footage that >is almost 'proof' (and I mean better stuff than the black & >white 'attempted shootdown') and hopefully they'll show one >particular sequence which I saw at their offices in London, >which if I were them I'd save as the final 'clincher'. >Unless it's one hell of a hoax... you see the Earth, in full >colour, to one side. Part of the shuttle is also in shot, then >what can only be described as a 'chrome football', perfectly >smooth, wanders in front of the camera, jiggles about for a few >seconds then shoots away. It's NOT the skycam thing they use. >Venus, I suppose.... >MMcA Hello All, If one of my Listmates in the UK would make a video recording of this for me I would send $ to cover any and all expenses. I am especially interested in securing a copy of this shuttle footage. If you can do this for me, contact me privately at jvif@spacelab.net and we'll make arrangements. Thank you. (I can have the tape transferred from PAL to VHS format on this end, so not to worry about incompatibility.) Peace, John Velez ________________________________________________ jvif@spacelab.net INTRUDERS FOUNDATION/ABDUCTION INFORMATION CENTER http://www.if-aic.com "Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind." ________________________________________________
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 14 Re: Research Query: Abductees - Any Blind From: Josh Goldstein <clearlt@pacbell.net> Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 03:02:26 -0800 Fwd Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 14:20:58 -0500 Subject: Re: Research Query: Abductees - Any Blind >Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 07:05:36 -0800 (PST) >From: Rebecca <xiannekei@yahoo.com> >Subject: Re: Research Query: Abductees - Any Blind Abductees? >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >>From: Marc Bell <MARC@wufog.freeserve.co.uk> >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >>Subject: Re: Research Query: Abductees - Any Blind Abductees? >>Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 19:10:29 -0000 >>I am a short sighted abductee and found this very interesting. >>I can personally testify about many of my own experiences in >>this respect. Virtually all of my abductions have been >>night-time and without my glasses. Both through conscious recall >>and regression:- >>a) my visual perception is similar to vision without glasses >>b) I have no recall of ever putting my glasses on as part of any >>experience >>c) I have many memories before the age of 7 years and these >>involve very clear vision. At the age of 7 years my eye sight >>was inpaired by Scarlet Fever (now thankfully a pretty rare >>condition in the UK). >Marc, >Thanks! Just what I was interested in "seeing." <G> >I knew there had to be some blurry accounts out there >somewhere! I'm glad this topic was brought out. I never before thought about how people with vision aids may have a scarier time being abducted into a situation that may cause increased fear due to everything being blurry and somewhat unidentifiable. I imagine that if there are any blind abductees it may be terrifying to be suddenly abducted into an unknown environment and have bizarre interaction with unknown entities one can not see in any form. Josh Goldstein
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 14 Meteor Over California? From: Ian Darlington - CUFORG <cuforg@interweb-design.co.uk> Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 14:52:56 -0000 Fwd Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 14:30:01 -0500 Subject: Meteor Over California? Just in case anyone missed this story :-) Source: CNN http://www.cnn.com/TECH/space/9902/12/bright.light.ap/ N. Californians startled by 2nd bright light February 12, 1999 Web posted at: 5:42 p.m. EST (2242 GMT) SAN FRANCISCO (AP) -- For the second time this month, Northern Californians have spotted a bright light in the sky. People from San Francisco to Sacramento reported seeing the light about 7 p.m. Thursday night. One Sacramento resident said the object was "flying higher than the tops of trees" and appeared to have "rocket fins above the tail." An astronomer who did not see the light says it was most likely a fireball or meteor. Officials at nearby Air Force bases say the military launched no missiles in the area last night. Last Tuesday, a meteor estimated at the size of a Volkswagen streaked across the Western sky, startling people from Las Vegas to San Francisco. The Associated Press contributed to this report. -------ENDS----- Ian Darlington. Editor/Webmaster 'Skywatchers'. Cornwall UFO Research Group http://www.interweb-design.co.uk/cuforg mailto:cuforg@interweb-design.co.uk ICQ 12387110
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 14 BWW Media Alert 19990214 From: Bufo Calvin <BufoCalvin@aol.com> Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 09:54:39 EST Fwd Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 14:36:07 -0500 Subject: BWW Media Alert 19990214 Bufo Calvin P O Box 5231, Walnut Creek, CA 94596 Internet: BufoCalvin@aol.com Website: http://members.aol.com/bufocalvin http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/redirect-home/bufosweirdworld ALL RIGHTS RESERVED (permission is granted to reproduce or redistribute this edition of Bufo's WEIRD WORLD provided that attribution is made to http://members.aol.com/bufocalvin. It is good etiquette to check with strangers before you e-mail them something. If you forward this, please make sure it is clear that you are forwarding it). February 14, 1999 Happy Valentine's Day! Due to the holiday, this one may be a bit sparse. While my wife supports the time I spend at the computer, I don't think it's very romantic ;) . I may try and add some later. This is the week CONFIRMATION: THE HARD EVIDENCE OF ALIENS AMONG US? on NBC. As I mentioned last time, this is one of the more significant television broadcasts on weird topics. One unusual element is that Whitley Strieber (author of <A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0312967047/bufosweirdworld"> Confirmation (paperback)</A>, on which it is based) is a co-Executive Producer of the special. I have heard many times that people have felt manipulated by the Producers of shows...for example, author Budd Hopkins in Nova's KIDNAPPED BY UFOS? (( <A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/6303996043/bufosweirdworld"> NOVA: Kidnapped by UFOs? (video)</A>). It seems less likely in this case. Hopkins and John Mack are both scheduled to appear in the special. Other highlights include: The Tremble County Disturbance (1993 Ohio: several police officers see a UFO. Audio from the time is played, and one officer is interviewed); UFO Evidence (films and photos, include the McMinville Trent still shots); The Jesse Long Story (an L.A. abductee); The Black Vault story (heavy-duty conspiracy website (<A HREF="http://www.blackvault.com/"> http://www.blackvault.com/<;/A>); and Streiber himself. For more information, see the NBC press release at <A HREF="http://www.nbc.com/tvcentral/mms/frpv_specials.html">NBC Specials: Confirmation</A>. Tomorrow, the fifteenth, is the deadline for me for Bufo's WEIRD WORLD Watch (tentative title) for the April issue of FATE. If you'd like to send me any weird reports, I'd appreciate it. Everything has to have a citable source. It's a great way to direct people to your website, if I use it. E-mail me for more information. On to the listings: Times are generally Pacific. TELEVISION A&E Sunday, February 14, 3:00 PM, THE UNEXPLAINED: HAUNTINGS THE DISCOVERY CHANNEL Sunday, February 14, 12:30, ARTHUR C. CLARKE'S MYSTERIOUS UNIVERSE, STRANGE POWERS OF ANIMALS THE LEARNING CHANNEL NBC Wednesday, February 17, 8:00 PM, CONFIRMATION: THE HARD EVIDENCE OF ALIENS AMONG US? THE SCIENCE CHANNEL The new schedule (since December 28, 1998) is weird programming for an hour each at 3:00 AM, 11:00 AM,and 7:00 PM. Alternating shows are: INTO THE UNKNOWN and ARTHUR C. CLARKE'S MYSTERIOUS UNIVERSE. They also run a Roswell show now every other week (it's probably the same show every time) at 4:00 AM and noon on Sundays. THE SCI-FI CHANNEL Tuesday, February 16, 11:00 AM, SIGHTINGS: EPISODE #4031 (multi-generational alien contact; Bigfoot museum; faith healer; Peru) Wednesday, February 17, 11:00 AM SIGHTINGS, EPISODE #4032: (Georgia UFO; psychic cop; haunting) Thursday, February 18, 11:00 AM SIGHTINGS: EPISODE #4033 (Oregon ghost train; alien autopsy; Tesla) Friday, February 19, 11:00 AM SIGHTINGS: EPISODE #4034 (jetliner and UFO; Nostradamus) ___________________________ This is Bufo saying, "If =everything= seemed normal, that =would= be weird!" ____________________________ You can stop receiving this from me just by asking (note: it is commonly redistributed, and I can't control you getting it from those sources) by e-mail at BufoCalvin@aol.com. You can also subscribe or unsubscribe to Bufo's WEIRD WORLD Media Alert the same way. Also, please let me know if there is something in the media you think I should cover. Deadline is Tuesday, t he week before. _____________________________
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 14 Re: BWW Media Alert 19990214 From: Bufo Calvin <BufoCalvin@aol.com> Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 09:54:39 EST Fwd Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 14:33:59 -0500 Subject: Re: BWW Media Alert 19990214 Bufo Calvin P O Box 5231, Walnut Creek, CA 94596 Internet: BufoCalvin@aol.com Website: http://members.aol.com/bufocalvin http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/redirect-home/bufosweirdworld ALL RIGHTS RESERVED (permission is granted to reproduce or redistribute this edition of Bufo's WEIRD WORLD provided that attribution is made to http://members.aol.com/bufocalvin. It is good etiquette to check with strangers before you e-mail them something. If you forward this, please make sure it is clear that you are forwarding it). February 14, 1999 Happy Valentine's Day! Due to the holiday, this one may be a bit sparse. While my wife supports the time I spend at the computer, I don't think it's very romantic ;) . I may try and add some later. This is the week CONFIRMATION: THE HARD EVIDENCE OF ALIENS AMONG US? on NBC. As I mentioned last time, this is one of the more significant television broadcasts on weird topics. One unusual element is that Whitley Strieber (author of <A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0312967047/bufosweirdworld"> Confirmation (paperback)</A>, on which it is based) is a co-Executive Producer of the special. I have heard many times that people have felt manipulated by the Producers of shows...for example, author Budd Hopkins in Nova's KIDNAPPED BY UFOS? (( <A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/6303996043/bufosweirdworld"> NOVA: Kidnapped by UFOs? (video)</A>). It seems less likely in this case. Hopkins and John Mack are both scheduled to appear in the special. Other highlights include: The Tremble County Disturbance (1993 Ohio: several police officers see a UFO. Audio from the time is played, and one officer is interviewed); UFO Evidence (films and photos, include the McMinville Trent still shots); The Jesse Long Story (an L.A. abductee); The Black Vault story (heavy-duty conspiracy website (<A HREF="http://www.blackvault.com/"> http://www.blackvault.com/<;/A>); and Streiber himself. For more information, see the NBC press release at <A HREF="http://www.nbc.com/tvcentral/mms/frpv_specials.html">NBC Specials: Confirmation</A>. Tomorrow, the fifteenth, is the deadline for me for Bufo's WEIRD WORLD Watch (tentative title) for the April issue of FATE. If you'd like to send me any weird reports, I'd appreciate it. Everything has to have a citable source. It's a great way to direct people to your website, if I use it. E-mail me for more information. On to the listings: Times are generally Pacific. TELEVISION A&E Sunday, February 14, 3:00 PM, THE UNEXPLAINED: HAUNTINGS THE DISCOVERY CHANNEL Sunday, February 14, 12:30, ARTHUR C. CLARKE'S MYSTERIOUS UNIVERSE, STRANGE POWERS OF ANIMALS THE LEARNING CHANNEL NBC Wednesday, February 17, 8:00 PM, CONFIRMATION: THE HARD EVIDENCE OF ALIENS AMONG US? THE SCIENCE CHANNEL The new schedule (since December 28, 1998) is weird programming for an hour each at 3:00 AM, 11:00 AM,and 7:00 PM. Alternating shows are: INTO THE UNKNOWN and ARTHUR C. CLARKE'S MYSTERIOUS UNIVERSE. They also run a Roswell show now every other week (it's probably the same show every time) at 4:00 AM and noon on Sundays. THE SCI-FI CHANNEL Tuesday, February 16, 11:00 AM, SIGHTINGS: EPISODE #4031 (multi-generational alien contact; Bigfoot museum; faith healer; Peru) Wednesday, February 17, 11:00 AM SIGHTINGS, EPISODE #4032: (Georgia UFO; psychic cop; haunting) Thursday, February 18, 11:00 AM SIGHTINGS: EPISODE #4033 (Oregon ghost train; alien autopsy; Tesla) Friday, February 19, 11:00 AM SIGHTINGS: EPISODE #4034 (jetliner and UFO; Nostradamus) ___________________________ This is Bufo saying, "If =everything= seemed normal, that =would= be weird!" ____________________________ You can stop receiving this from me just by asking (note: it is commonly redistributed, and I can't control you getting it from those sources) by e-mail at BufoCalvin@aol.com. You can also subscribe or unsubscribe to Bufo's WEIRD WORLD Media Alert the same way. Also, please let me know if there is something in the media you think I should cover. Deadline is Tuesday, t he week before. _____________________________
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 14 Re: Robert Todd On MJ-12 From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com> Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 10:04:07 EST Fwd Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 14:42:04 -0500 Subject: Re: Robert Todd On MJ-12 >From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: Re: Robert Todd On MJ-12 >Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 09:38:10 -0400 >>Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 02:03:45 -0800 >>From: Josh Goldstein <clearlt@pacbell.net> >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >>Subject: Re: Robert Todd On MJ-12 <snipped question from Josh> <snipped opening comment by Stan]> >I do find it strange that some people accept the notion that >Shandera and Moore faked the CT memo and flew all the way to >Washington spending days ther before finding it, but did nothing >with it for years. >They went to all the trouble to find watermarked onionskin >paper, clearly aged, from a cmpany that made it only in bid >lots, managed to find out somehow that Cutler was out of the >country on the date given for the memo, so it wasn't signed, >somehow knew enough to put in a slant red pencil mark through >the unusual security marking (not truly verified as having been >in use at that time until the GAO went througn tons of documents >and noted that such a marking was used in the right time frame >despite claims that it hadn't been. Found out that both Twining >and Ike were in town on the date of the meeting, etc etc. What >did they do with it? _Nothing_ for years besides sending me a >copy. >Since the EBD was on film sent in the mail so there could be no >check of ink or paper, no watermark, etc, why not just send a >Xerox copy of the "faked" document through the mail? A lot >cheaper than flying from California to DC and spending several >days there. Why go through the crazy business of sending cryptic >postcards from exotic places? >People on this List can testify to having seen them. >How did they know Box 189 could be used???? There are many more >problems with this very strange scenario that some want to >accept. <snipped Cash-Landrum scenario> Stan, list, all - I had planned to stay out of this simply because my views are well known and there was little to add to the debate. However -- There is a very good reason to go to all the trouble to find the Cutler-Twining memo (note, letter, document) in the National Archives. It gives it a pedigree. Remember, we have all complained, noted, observed, and suggested that all the original MJ-12 documents lacked provenance. They arrived at the homes of UFO researchers (Shandera for the initial set, Don Berliner for the Operations Manual, and now others for the new crop) without a way of tracing their point of origin. Basically they all go back to the researcher who brought them to the attention of the rest of us and no farther. This suggests that they might be bogus. Remember too, that some of the earlier MJ-12 documents have been declared bogus by all parties. What is new with the CIA, MJ-5 memo? And let's not forget that Bill Moore told various versions about the Aquarius Telex. Dick Hall wrote, "The AFOSI document is not authentic in the sense of not being an original; Moore has retyped it and done a cut and paste job as he acknowledged in answer to my direct questioning." Moore was saying that he had done this because the original was so poor that it was nearly impossible to read. Checks revealed that the original message, that is, the real AFOSI document did not contain the reference to MJ-12 which means the document was much more than just a cut and paste job. It was a bogus document created to bolster MJ-12 with an official looking document. The Eisenhower Briefing Document and the Truman Memo that accompany it have been challenged by respected questioned document examiners. One of them, contacted by Stan, told him that the Truman Memo was a fake because the typeface of the typewriter didn't exist until the 1960s. This was based on a full strikeup of every letter and character of the typewriter and the numbers and symbols on it so that the specific type of typewriter could be identified. This would suggest the Truman Memo is a fake and because it was attached to the Eisenhower Document, suggests it to is a fake. That means that none of the MJ-12 documents had withstood the scrutiny of an expert, the very expert that Stan had selected to examine the document. Couple this to the fact that Bill Moore had said that he had been thinking of creating a "Roswell" document to see what he could shake loose, and Moore's admission that he had cut and paste the Aquarius Telex and MJ-12 is beginning to look very shaky. Add to that the statement by Bob Pratt, that he, Moore, and some unidentified man (probably Richard Doty) were writing a fiction book about a UFO cover-up that employed an organization labeled as MJ-12 prior to the documents arriving at Shandera's house, and MJ-12 is sinking fast. So, why go to all the trouble of creating a carbon copy of the Cutler-Twining memo, which wasn't signed because Cutler was out of the country (though it could by that it wasn't signed because it was a carbon), and then plant it in the National Archives? Because it provides the look of a provenance for the memo. How can we question a document that has come from the National Archives? They're not faking documents. The discovery there seems to provide the key link in MJ-12. It provides the provenance at a government agency so MJ-12 suddenly becomes more legitimate. Why go to all this trouble? To provide a note of intrique into the affair, make it sound clandestine, and provide a good story about the important work being done. And, when all else fails, to be able to suggest that it was really government disinformation that created the fakes and not fanatical UFO researchers. But isn't it interesting that Moore talked of creating a "Roswell" document before MJ-12 surfaced? Isn't it interesting that Moore and Bob Pratt wrote a novel that contained references to MJ-12 before the documents surfaced? Isn't it interesting that all of the early documents were traceable back to Moore and no further? And, isn't it interesting that two of those documents, the CIA MJ-5 document and the Aquarius Telex are seen as being bogus by nearly everyone, and the source of them is Moore too? This is a long-winded answer to Stan's questions about why Moore would fly clear across the country to do this. He wanted a source that was traceable back into the government, even if he had to be the conduit of that trace. KRandle
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 14 Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality From: John Rimmer <magonia@magonia.demon.co.uk> Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 17:55:43 +0000 Fwd Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 14:52:26 -0500 Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 15:08:35 -0500 <Dennis's contribution snipped> >As Dennis perfectly well knows, many writers have found >parallels to the abduction experience in folklore and religious >history, in cultures throughout the world, from ancient times >until today. I'd suggest he argue with them, instead of me. I'm >not impressed with the way most of these writers make these >parallels -- I can't conclude as easily as they do (a) that >abductions aren't real because folk beliefs in other cultures >are too much like the abduction narrative, or (b) that >abductions _are_ real but can't be carried out by >extraterrestrial beings, because that version of the story is >only our own culture's version of it. This is true, but those writers - including myself - who have done this have emphasised that the parallel accounts are distinguished by the way they are adjusted to the society in which they occur. An eighteenth century fairy abduction from central Europe takes place in an 'alternative' world which mirrors the realities of eighteenth century Europe - the fairy hoard will have a king and queen, there will be carriages drawn by miniature horses, the fairies' clothes will be made from rich fabrics, etc., etc., etc. This are not misinterpretations of alien artifacts by people with poor verbal skills. They are detailed descriptions, consistent within themselves and between similar accounts. There are no accounts, until the modern UFO era, of abductions which involve futuristic machinery, small, big-eyed grey creatures or high-tech medical examinations. The features which are shared by both sets of accounts are the ones based on a heritage of myth and belief: magical powers to levitate or pass through walls, stories of interbreeding and changling children, time distortions - precisely those worrying, 'unscientific' elements which disturb the more literal-minded ufologists. >In other words, I think the parallels have been overstated. That >they exist, though, is hard for anyone to deny. If abductions >are in fact real, some of those folkloric or religious accounts >could well be abduction stories. The parallels have been overstated only if anyone believes the historical accounts are descriptions of a physical abduction phenomenon carried out by the same agencies which are allegedly abductiong people today. >And as for references n the psychological literature, what >exactly are we looking for? The full-blown, familiar abduction >narrative, little grays, medical exams, and all? Or simply >nocturnal visitations, strange lights, beings by the bed, >reports of being carried off to strange places? I see no reason why we should not be looking for the "full blown" abduction narrative with grays, medical exams and the full monty, in historical reports. Otherwise we are left with nothing but the nocturnal visitations, strange lights and beings by the bed which can all be explained by natural psychological processes. It is the unique features of the modern abduction experience which can be traced to contemporary social concerns, contemporary imagery and the influence of contemporary abduction researchers. >Before we can even deal with these questions, we have to know >how many accounts we find of _any_ paranormal experience. A 1975 >paper by sociologist Andrew Greeley (cited in David Hufford's >book "The Terror That Comes In The Night"), says that fully >one-fifth of all Americans have had paranormal experiences. How >many of them show up in the psychological literature? Let's put >aside, for the moment, the many papers in which experimental >psychologists try vainly to prove that people who've had >paranormal experiences (including UFO sightings) or even believe >in the paranormal must be suffering from some kind of >psychopathology. How many case studies of paranormal experience >are there? The dreaded Roper Poll and the spurious statistics which have been spun from it demonstrate the dangers of trying to play the numbers game. I am pretty convinced that there are a significant number of paranormal experiences which are not actually recognised as paranormal experiences - for examples of the type of thing I mean read "Virtual Banality" in Magonia 51, or Johnny Mendoza's (any relation, Peter?) letter in the latest Strange magazine. Experimental psychologists may be trying to prove that percipients are suffering from some sort of psychopathology. I doubt if many sceptical or psychosocial ufologists are. the point we are trying to get across is that these sorts of experiences are part of the *normal* funtioning of the brain under certain conditions. <snips> >For what it's worth, I've had three friends tell me -- not in an >abduction context, and in two of the three cases before Budd >Hopkins published any of his books -- that they've had phantom >nocturnal visitors. Whether they'd also tell their therapists >(should they be in therapy) might be a very different story. I don't see the relevance of this. No-one is denying that people have had experiences with apparent noctural visitors since the year dot. It's just that this real *experience* - for which there are quite well accepted psychological and neurological explanations - is the one from which Hopkins, Mack and so forth are fashioning a new techno-mythology. >About the 1920's, though, I'm reminded of something George >Bernard Shaw once wrote. To understand it, you need to know that >Verdi wrote 26 operas, but that from the 1870's, at a guess, >until the 1970's, most of them were almost never performed. The >only way to get to know them was to find a printed score in a >library, and either play it on the piano or read through it, >hearing the music in your head. >Shaw, who was a music critic in the 1890's, at some point wrote >about some Verdi anniversary, which had elicited scholarly >comments on many of those then-forgotten works. Shaw, >predictably, wasn't impressed with what the scholars said, and >above all with their comparisons between the unfamiliar works >and operas like "Aida" and "Rigoletto," which any >self-respecting opera fan knows virtually by heart. By that >standard, Shaw said -- exaggerating, obviously, but in spirit >quite right -- these scholars knew no more about the less >familiar Verdi operas than they knew about "the tunes Miriam >timbreled [in Biblical times] on the shores of the Red Sea." I do so enjoy Greg's musical diversions. Perhaps he could help with a little game I was playing in Magonia a year or so ago: classical music links to ufology. The British composer George Lloyd wrote a movement called "Flying Saucers" for his Charade Suite; there's Philip Glass's "Thousand Airplanes on the Roof", an opera based on an abduction experience, and didn't he also write "Itiapu", after the place in Brazil where there was a famous military close encounter in the 50s? And of course there's Tim Good who used to be a violinist with the London Symphony Orchestra Yours, allegro con brio, -- John Rimmer www.magonia.demon.co.uk Abandon hope all ye who press Enter here
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 14 Bach's 'Reality Check' From: Ron Bach <roam5@utinet.com> Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 03:06:26 -0700 Fwd Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 14:55:17 -0500 Subject: Bach's 'Reality Check' Reality Check By Ron Bach Sunday, February 14, 1999 Ashes to Ashes, Dust to Dust If Y2K doesn�t get you, Asteriods must! Grim as it may sound, the world is coming to an end. At least that is the message around the world from Hi-Tech Corporations, Ufology, and Conspiracy circles. Throw in the Anti-Christ and it gets real scary. Everyone knows that sex sells. But so does fear. In fact, fear has sold for centuries under the disguise of religion and insurance. Just last week, I was approached by a missionary who handed me a brochure with an image of a man burning in Fire. Join us, he said. There is no other salvation from the coming calamity. For those who are not religiously inclined, several Web Sites on the Internet claim that a huge Asteroid is on a collision course with Earth. The so-called Asteroid will impact Earth either in June 1999 or November 1999. These Web Sites urgently insist that all ground based and space based telescopes must be directed towards the Taurid Stream of Meteors, for an early warning. Prominent astronomers disagree. According to them, even if there were an Asteroid or a Meteor approaching the Earth, it would be invisible to the telescopes until too late. This is especially true for the Asteroids or Meteors in the Taurid Stream, where such large objects, say about the size of a football field, would be well hidden in the dust surrounding them. So how do these groups on the Internet know that such an Asteroid is scheduled for a collision in June 1999? Well, for starters they are not offering any proof. Even if they have proof, which is doubtful, they claim that should they disclose the proof or their sources, Black Ops would execute them within 48 hours! Millions of people around the world have caught on to this hysteria. Either they are busy storing enough food, water, and medicine or are busy purchasing the more luxurious generators, crank radios, and flashlights. Not that such precautions are totally unnecessary. For all we know, Y2K could disrupt the normal life for a couple of weeks. In that aspect the above precautions are well justified. However, if the objectives of preparations are geared towards an Asteroid hit, then it is in vain. Any one, who has recently seen Hollywood movies such as Deep Impact or Armageddon, should understand the power of such large Asteroids hitting the earth. A thousand-foot Tsunami or a devastating Earthquake could get you even if you were underground with your supplies. In a worst case scenario, such a catastrophe could probably bury you even deeper under the rubble making your escape impossible unless you carried a Bulldozer with you. Probably you would be much safer sitting with food cans and water bottles in a boat in the middle of the Ocean, provided you had enough time to row out that far! Sadly, the cans and bottles would not last for a year. Scary as it seems, the Apocalypse scenario falls apart when one steps back from the hysteria and thinks rationally. For example the same group that prophesizes the Asteroid hit, is busy studying an ancient Mayan Circle in Florida. Headed by Richard C. Hoagland, the group claims a strong connection of the so-called Mayan Circle to Stonehenge. One wonders that if this group is so sure of an Asteroid hit in June 1999, as they boldly state on their Web Site "The Enterprise Mission", then they must have nerves of steel spending two weeks in Miami taking pictures of an ancient Mayan Circle from a parking lot! However they are not an exception in making ludicrous claims. Another group CSETI (Center for the Study of Extraterrestrial Intelligence) headed by a Dr. Steven Greer goes a step further and claims they can attract Extra Terrestrials, just like you would call your friend out for dinner. This group also sells the so-called Do It Yourself kits that can attract ET's to communicate with you at a designated time and place. And if that does not suffice, Dr. Greer also claims to have hundreds of decorated military and intelligence personnel who at one time or other have worked with ET's. Reportedly, Dr. Greer also has video testimonies from these so-called witnesses who will step forward and verify their claims. That has not happened yet. Why? Well, these witnesses are apparently under an oath and are waiting for the US Government to pardon them before they step forward. Right! The question then is, if people like Dr. Greer are capable of communicating with the ET's, and if people like Richard Hoagland have proof of an Asteroid hit in June 1999, why don�t they ask the ET's to take them to a safe place? Like maybe a distant Galactic Planet? Or why doesn't Dr. Greer request the ET's to blow up the Asteroid for the good of humanity in the first place? On the contrary, when people like Robert A. M. Stephens, a NASA Sub Contractor, known as RAMS in UFOlogy circle, try to argue the validity of such claims, he is mocked at and framed as a Covert Government Operative. Although there is every reason to worry about natural and manmade calamities, think about what if these prophecies do not materialize? For financially well off families that would not pose a problem. But if you spend your last dollar on that flashlight, you certainly will be under the poverty line in the new Millenium. May be it is time for a Reality Check, Now.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 15 Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com> Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 15:18:00 EST Fwd Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 12:22:08 -0500 Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 10:15:13 +0000 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >From: John Rimmer <magonia@magonia.demon.co.uk> >Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com> >>Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 13:40:46 EST >>To: updates@globalserve.net >>Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >>You have not been paying attention to posts right here on this >>news list. There have been several well known abductees with >>direct recall of their experiences, having a family history of >>such goings on. It has occurred in my own family. But the >>perception of the event was, by virtue of the level of education >>and knowledge, misconstrued as being religious, paranormal et >>al. > >Yes, but the point is that these family histories of abduction >experiences have only surfaced as memories in the last 10-15 >years. Where are the _contemporary_ records of abductions or >abduction-type experiences in previous generations? That is your opinion. We have stories in our family which go back several generations (two) which read like a modern abduction phenom. Only problem is the interpretation given to the stories... further, most older generations like to keep these stories in the family and generally do not refer to them outside of the family. There are those among us who have such stories. Many are just now being written by the most recent of us who perceive we are experiencers. These will be booked in the hands of a reputable researcher... note use of the singular. >Except, of course, for the folklore-type abductions beloved of >the pstcho-sociologists, which abductologists reject as an >analogue of the modern abduction experience. All the information >about pre-Hill/AVB come from *memories* which have been recorded >in the last decade. >>Actually you are again mistaken. An abduction experience, a >>remembered abduction experience, occurred to me in about 1960 >>ish. My recall is rather vivid. This event was shared by a >>friend, with whom I was hunting on that day. My friend had >>similar recall but had been living half way across the country >>for the past 30 years. I had lost contact with him until only >>last year, when I found him via a search engine. He wrote me >>with some memories of that same trip, and memories which he has >>had for these nearly 38 years. He wrote me with those memories. >>They were discussed and rediscussed. He recently came to NY to >>renew the acquaintence. Our memories are nearly identical... >>with the exception of the first few moments of the event. He >>remembered a small family of "deer" and I remembered a small >>family of rabbits... he was loaded for deer. I was loaded for >>small game using a shotgun. He had a rifle... >Where either you or your friends memories recorded or reported >anywhere before you started discussing it betwen yourselves? How >can you be sure that in discussing it you have not unwittingly >confabulated a joint memories. Who took the lead in the >discussions? Just _how_ independent are your separate memories? They were indeed written, recorded, confirmed, stored and much of it was retold as it was happening... on another venue. The information is verifiable and has already been discussed with a researcher who has my respect. The other player has suffered much as a result of his recall over a period of 35 years or so... his recall is not as recent as mine and his story was indeed previously recorded privately and shared with his wife and children who also have had experiences but perceived theirs prior to learning of George's experience. This experience left my friend shattered by virtue of it's strangeness. He is a scientist, a man unused to a reality which cannot be recognized as a reality in the strictest definition of the scientist. While my recall is recent, it is the recall of the "detail" which is recent. My recall of "a strange event" goes back all those years. And no, we did not discuss it until we began to correspond last year. This too can be verified. There are those, however who will believe nothing which they will not allow themselves to believe. We grew up together, spent a great deal of time together in shooting sports. _Never_ spoke of our experience many years ago until we met again after about a thirty year hiatus. We did not even discuss it the afternoon we found ourselves in a place we were not in just moments prior. Those moments, however, turned out to be hours. What had been an early afternoon hunting trip to the Catskill foothills became a late afternoon completed trip sitting in restaurant, hours later. We drove home in complete silence and never mentioned it again. In part, this was because of the strangeness, in part due to a kind of numbness of mind which lasted more than a few days. In large part, we have no idea why we said nothing. To tell more would be unfair to the organization I chose to work with. There are answers to all of the questions people will ask. But the answers will not satisfy those who fear hearing the truth for reasons I cannot ascribe or assign. Some have told me that hearing such (as truth) would destroy their personal life paradigm. My personal opinion... if it is fear which destroys your judgment, then lose it or die not knowing truth, whatever the truth may be. As Frank Herbert said in Dune, "Fear is the mind killer.... it is the little death which causes total obliteration...." We face our fear. Do you who fear, face yours? Gesundt
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 15 UFO and Paranormal Courses From: Stephen Mera <s_mera@yahoo.com> Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 12:29:49 -0800 (PST) Fwd Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 12:23:57 -0500 Subject: UFO and Paranormal Courses MAPIT a Manchester run group are running a 20 week tutored course on many debatable subjects. The course known as the BITC costs just =A330.00. for more details check our site at: Http://www.maxpages.com/mapit/home =3D=3D
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 15 Re: Abductions and Researcher Bias From: Joseph Polanik <jpolanik@mindspring.com> Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 20:54:54 GMT Fwd Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 12:26:28 -0500 Subject: Re: Abductions and Researcher Bias >From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: Re: Abductions and Researcher Bias >Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1998 11:14:46 -0500 >>From: Tim Brigham - Devil's Advocate <devilsad@ksinc.net> >>To: <updates@globalserve.net> >>Subject: Abductions and Researcher Bias >>Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 22:00:27 -0600 >>After following a few of the various discussions re abductions >>recently on this list (especially ones focusing heavily on >>social factors), thought the following might be of interest. >>Source: The Devil's Advocate >>www.devilsadvocate.base.org >>(originally appeared in the print zine). >>"Abductions and Researcher Bias" or >>"Why Does every Abduction Researcher always find his own >>Favorite Breed of Alien?" >>by >>Martin Kottmeyer >The subtitle is a sad exaggeration. I've seen abductees who work >with Budd Hopkins form every possible view of the abduction >phenomenon. Quite a few are willing to entertain friendly >thoughts about their abductors, even though Budd doesn't think >that way. Isn't that precisely the problem. >>Abductees with positive-attitude investigators more often feel >>positive about their abduction experiences. Their reactions to >>the entities are more often positive. The entities are perceived >>more often as warm and cordial. More often one of the entities >>seems familiar or caring. The abductees more often see >>themselves as partners in the experience. They more often may >>even identify themselves as alien. On the downside they more >>often have vague anxieties after their experiences. >>Abductees with negative-attitude investigators, on the other >>had, more often feel negative about their experiences. They hate >>and dislike the beings more often. The beings themselves are >>more often perceived as cold and business-like. The abductees >>see themselves more often as victims. >As I've said, I've seen a fair number of Budd Hopkins's >abductees entertain positive views of the aliens, and even come >to positive conclusions. One conclusion I come to is that >abductees, on their own, form many views of the phenomenon. If >the abduction investigator they work with shares their views, >they're more likely to stay with him or her. No doubt this sorting does occur. That would imply that the researcher's perspective attracts experiencers whose reports support that view and repels experiencers whose reports support a different view. The researcher's results, when based on the reports of those who self-sort this way, is based on a skewed sample ... not a random sample as would be required by a scientific methodology. >To some extent, of >course, investigators do affect their abductees' views; that >would only be natural. But there's another factor at work, too, >and that's how abductees pick the investigator they want to work >with. >Anyone who felt he or she was being visited by angelic beings >wouldn't be very drawn to Budd after reading his books or seeing >him on TV. Nor would anyone who had really painful experiences, >and was interested in an objective, scientific view of the >phenomenon -- and please don't underestimate the number of >abductees who feel this way! -- go running to John Mack. I've >mentioned here before that abductees are often described as if >they were much more passive than they are. They make choices, >and form their own views. >But if Mack or Sprinkle talk >a lot about their positive view of the aliens -- and if that's >echoed by many people in their groups -- then abductees who feel >otherwise won't keep coming. This isn't investigator influence. >It's abductee choice. It doesn't matter who sorts the data. It still ends up skewed. The researcher who does not acknowledge that his/her database is not representative of the whole population of experiencers translates that skewed database into a skewed theory. <.>^<.>__<.>^<.>__<.>^<.>__<.>^<.>__<.>^<.>__<.>^<.>__<.>^<.> Joseph Polanik, <jpolanik@mindspring.com> Trionic Research Institute, <http://trionica.com>
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 15 Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality From: Bill Weber <koran@cchat.com> Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 16:10:21 -0500 Fwd Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 12:28:50 -0500 Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 14:19:42 -0800 >From: Judith Dale <judithdale@earthlink.net> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >Greetings all, >As I've been following this discussion, regarding 'Abduction - >The Issue of Reality', I've found myself feeling angry, >frustrated, stunned, and finally amused about the hue and cry >for 'proof'. Hi, Judith, No matter how you slice it, there certainly is a need for more quantifiable evidence. After all, without hard, tangible, quantifiable data with which to do traditional research, we wouldn't even know answers to questions like whether or not it is safer to eat butter or margarine. (BTW, is it safer to eat butter or margarine???) What I find amazing, however, is that as many times as John Velez has offered, nobody has taken him up in looking into physical trace evidence. Instead, it's largely ignored. In fact, anything of an objective, tangible nature that JV has laid out on this list has been similarly treated. Second, I think there is a difference, or should be anyway, between asking a "researcher" to provide better evidence and methodology and _blaming_ an abductee for "not moving this discussion along," (or even inferring they're laughable, stupid, crazy, or perceptually screwy.) - a kind of blame. The abductees only part in this was having the experience that he or she can't explain. As more becomes known, variables change, methods are adapted, and results are reinterpreted. If abduction has existed into antiquity, and if we are operating on some sort of a straight line progression with this, maybe more evidence of a tangible nature will be gained in the future. Until then, I guess its the abductee's lot to smile and field those misdirected and "oh so sincere" questions about crapping in their pants - and that's a shame. Sincerely, Bill
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 15 Re: 'The Uninvited'? From: Georgina Bruni <georgina@easynet.co.uk> Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 21:10:33 +0000 Fwd Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 12:31:52 -0500 Subject: Re: 'The Uninvited'? >Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 08:49:04 +1100 >To: <updates@globalserve.net> >From: Mike Farrell <mikefarr@midcoast.com.au> >Subject: 'The Uninvited' >Hello, >Has anyone seen or recorded that new TV program on Alien >Abductions called 'The Uninvited'? >Can anyone confirm if this program was aired in the States? >I have not seen any talk about it on the mailing lists or >newservices. Have you? Nick Pope's documentary "The Uninvited" was postponed, but will be screened by TLC on 1st March. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Georgina Bruni Editor in chief of Hot Gossip UK magazine E-mail: georgina@easynet.co.uk E-mail: 104707.336@compuserve.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * HOT GOSSIP UK www.hotgossip.co.uk Celebrating three years on the internet Britain's first on-line Gossip Magazine * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * COMMENT FOR TODAY You are only as good as you think you are
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 15 Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality From: Dennis <dstacy@texas.net> Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 15:14:08 -0600 (CST) Fwd Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 12:33:42 -0500 Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 17:55:43 +0000 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >From: John Rimmer <magonia@magonia.demon.co.uk> >Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >I do so enjoy Greg's musical diversions. Perhaps he could help >with a little game I was playing in Magonia a year or so ago: >classical music links to ufology. The British composer George >Lloyd wrote a movement called "Flying Saucers" for his Charade >Suite; there's Philip Glass's "Thousand Airplanes on the Roof", >an opera based on an abduction experience, and didn't he also >write "Itiapu", after the place in Brazil where there was a >famous military close encounter in the 50s? And of course >there's Tim Good who used to be a violinist with the London >Symphony Orchestra >Yours, allegro con brio, And on National Public Radio not too long ago, I heard a rendition, by a bloody Englishman I believe, of Woody Guthrie's flying saucer song, circa the late Forties. Dennis
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 15 Tim Matthews on IRC From: Sean Jones <tedric@tedric.demon.co.uk> Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 21:17:58 +0000 Fwd Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 12:36:03 -0500 Subject: Tim Matthews on IRC UNITED KINGDOM UFO NETWORK Saturday 20th February 1999 11pm onwards United Kingdom UFO Network special guest: T I M M A T T H E W S Tim Matthews will be answering your questions live in a moderated meeting starting at 11pm (UK time) Saturday 20th February 1999. This is the first occasion for Tim Matthews to appear live online. Don't miss this opportunity to visit and ask those all important questions. -- BIOGRAPHY -- Tim Matthews is a controversial UFO researcher, indeed his research into Nazi UFO's has gained him many enemies. However his work is first class even if you do not agree with his results. His book "UFO Revelation" is out on the 18th of February. It is all about the Nazi UFO's and the "ET Lie", it is certainly bound to raise a lot of controversy. Tim Matthews is as charming as he is outspoken, he is certainly one to watch out for in the next few years of British UFO research. Tim Matthews has certainly had a chequered past but he has moved on from that and now has a new goal in life, uncovering the ET lie as told by the world's government's. This is a speaker not to missed. --- If you are using one of the dedicated IRC programs such as the excellent MIRC available free from: http://www.mirc.co.uk/ You can visit us by connecting to one of the: Chatnet servers and joining channel #UFO --- There is now also a JAVA chat page that MAC users or those with out a dedicated IRC program can use at http://irc.ircweb.com/javairc/ Here you will need to enter a "nickname" and after that you will need to type /join #ufo in the command window. For any additional information email for help at IRC-HELP@tedric.demon.co.uk --- To find the equivalent time of the meeting in your part of the world point your web browser at: http://www.worldtimezone.com/ The web site will display a map of the world with 'updated live' times. After finding the United Kingdom time you will be able to work out (in hours and minutes) the time difference between our two countries. Remembering that this IRC meeting begins at 6.30pm you should now be able to work out the equivalent time in your country. --- We look forward to seeing you there. -------------------------------- United Kingdom UFO Network ufo@holodeck.demon.co.uk http://www.holodeck.demon.co.uk/ --------------------------------
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 15 Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality From: Leanne Martin <leanne_martin@hotmail.com> Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 15:17:30 PST Fwd Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 12:39:13 -0500 Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 14:19:42 -0800 >From: Judith Dale <judithdale@earthlink.net> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >Greetings all, >As I've been following this discussion, regarding 'Abduction - >The Issue of Reality', I've found myself feeling angry, >frustrated, stunned, and finally amused about the hue and cry >for 'proof'. <snip> >On the first occasion, I found myself sitting on the floor by >the bed, feeling disoriented and stunned. On the second >occasion, I found myself sitting up in bed, feeling disoriented >and stunned. On both occasions, I looked at the clock and was >amazed. With the first event, it was one hour past the time the >radio should have come on. With the second event, it was almost >two hours past wakeup time. Both times, I checked the clock. >Yes, it was set. No, I hadn't forgotten to set it the night >before. It should have come on. There had been no power failure, >I had set it, it simply didn't come on. <snip> G'day Judith, The evidence is _absolutely clear_. The time has come to buy a new clock . . .. <g> Regards,
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 15 Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality From: Tim D. Brigham <devilsad@ksinc.net> Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 17:32:10 -0600 Fwd Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 12:42:23 -0500 Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 17:55:43 +0000 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >From: John Rimmer <magonia@magonia.demon.co.uk> >Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality <snip> >Experimental psychologists may be trying to prove that >percipients are suffering from some sort of psychopathology. I >doubt if many sceptical or psychosocial ufologists are. the >point we are trying to get across is that these sorts of >experiences are part of the _normal_ funtioning of the brain >under certain conditions. John, Greg, all, Can you please clarify this last statement? What is meant by "normal functioning" and "certain conditions?" I _think_ I know what you mean by this statement, just by knowing, to some degree, where you are coming from, but you discuss psychopathology as abnormal, while saying abduction related experiences are results of "normal" functions. If the abduction experience is a result of such normal functioning, then why isn't generalized anxiety disorder, or obsessive compulsive d/o? Some would argue that both of these disorders are "normal," in the sense that both are recognized disorders affecting 'large' numbers of people, as well possibly acting as sorts of 'self preservation' mechanisms to cope with emotions or situations. To rephrase the question, I guess I am asking, what is normal, in your opinion? Are the Freudian concepts of repression or projection 'normal' ways to cope? Are we speaking of normal as healthy, being in tune with objective reality, commonly occurring, explainable in the context of psychobiology, or something else? Also, since you bring up experimental psych, my personal feeling, as a 'psychologist in training,' is that _some_ ("underline the some....") abduction accounts are not explainable by psychopathology or psychosocial theories. I know you made that statement as a generalization, but I just wanted to throw in my own $.02 about _other_ ways in which I think psychology can help us understand these matters. Setting aside for a moment the extremely important study of how memory works and how accurate it is under various conditions, how psychological disorders could account for some types of experiences, and all the other aspects of psychology that most people may think of when they see "psychology" and "abduction" in the same sentence, I think are are a lot of roads down the "excluded middle" that psychology, among other scientific specialties, can let us explore. Ones which don't involve hallucinations, sleep disorders, hypnotically generated memories, etc. I don't mean to say that the following ideas should be limited to "exploration by psychologists only," or anything of the sort, but I'm just telling you where I am coming from. My personal opinion is that some abduction accounts (I guess what some would label as the "true experiences") could be the result of the interaction of _the psychology of the experiencer_ and _the nature of the stimulus itself_. Could states of consciousness which we don't fully understand, which could be encountered, say, during during sleep states, or ritual/spirtual practices, among a plethora of other times/activities, allow such experiences to occur, _when combined with the presence of the external stimulus_ (just call it 'X' for the sake of discussion)? If a state of consciousness, say some sort of enhanced sensitivity to widget beta waves, or, maybe, electromagnetic waves, is entered, unintentionally, or maybe even intentionally, and X is present (applied?), could an abduction experience result? What about an out of body experience, or something similar to what people have reported in Raymond Moody's "psychomanteum"? Of course, the debate would then be, well what the hell _is_ X and _how_ does it do this? You could argue a Persigner-esque point of view, or an "externally existing Jungian archetype/Ultraterrestrial" theory, hightened sensitivity to inherited and common neurological patterns or brain structure which result in similar experiences independent of media or social influence, deliberately induced hallucinations, etc. etc (ie, you could argue X is an intelligence, or some sort of 'radiation' or something similar). <takes a deep breath> I understand that in this jumbled form, I am in no way addressing all the variables at play in these phenomena. Now, I also know that if you feel that _every_ case of alien abduction, and other paranormal experiences can be explained by psychopathology or psychosocial theories (and believe me, at times I feel that way myself, which negates the need for everything else I'm saying), my 'off the top of my head' ideas don't seem to be applying occams razor, but, if you think that there are some experiences which indicate that both external and internal influences, which are as yet not understood, are at work, and youre not ready to buy into an alien civilization flying here and doing these things (quite a leap to make, from "something unusual and not understood happened" to "aliens from space took me to make a hybrid baby," IMO, similar to the 'explanation' of fairy kidnappings or airships created by mad sceintists, methinks), etc, then something along these lines is the simplest and most _testable_ idea I can see as plausible. Hmm... I had no idea this was gonna turn into something which looks much like an alcohol induced philosophy rant, so I'll bow out now by saying that my point is that I think there are plenty of possible explanations which are not purely psychosocial or purely ET in nature, which can, and should be explored. To all; Happy corporate created holiday, and may scumbags everywhere make up for a year of wrongdoings to their significant others by delivering a $5 box of candy. Best wishes, Tim Brigham )+( www.ksinc.net/~devilsad/ufo.htm The Devil's Advocate www.ksinc.net/~devilsad/ring.htm Operation MindPhuck "Better to go hungry than to feast on lies." )+(
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 15 Re: UFO Crash In Israel? From: Henny van der Pluijm <hvdp@worldonline.nl> Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 03:16:39 +0100 (MET) Fwd Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 12:49:20 -0500 Subject: Re: UFO Crash In Israel? >From: "moonmother" <moonmother@email.msn.com> >To: <Masinaigan@aol.com> >Subject: UFO crash in Israel??? >Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 21:08:28 -0500 >Dear One, >My son just called from Albuquerque, New Mexico stating that KOB >TV had announced on the news that a UFO had crashed in Israel. >This is the same TV station that announced the Roswell crash. >Shortly after, the story was grounded. We haven't heard >anything. Do you have any information on this. I know Israel >has seen a lot of UFO activity lately. You may wish to check >into this. The latest news is that it was ... a weather balloon. Shucks, they just can't get it right at KOB. __________________________________________ / Met vriendelijke groet/Best wishes \ Henny van der Pluijm hvdp@worldonline.nl Technology Pages http://home.worldonline.nl/~hvdp \______________________________________/
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 15 UFO Wave In Peru From: Dr. Virgilio Sanchez-Ocejo <pharaoh@web2000.net> Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 19:12:54 -0800 Fwd Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 12:44:12 -0500 Subject: UFO Wave In Peru UFOs wave in Peru, South America. There have been a lot of ufos sighting flying over Peru. A week ago a local television showed a home video of a ufo flying over the capital, Lima. This week Chanel 5 and Chanel 2 in their 11.pm news, presented two separated home videos of flying ufos, one in Jesus Maria and another in Callao. The last one, and more spectacular, showed two ufos flying at tree top and at very slow speed. They combined and then separated at interval. On Wednesday, February 10, ufos were reported flying at low altitude, over the coast line betwen Chorrillos and Callao. Neighbors of the zone went outside their homes with the hope of seeing them again. Saturday, February 13. Another ufo was filmed at day time and showed in Chanel 5 Panamericana Television. There are severals reports of sighting over Lima (Lince) and in Ica (Pisco) to the north with Ecuador. Peruvian authorities are having problems with complains from the Colombian government about airships entering their airspace from Peru without authorization. Of course, peruvian government denied the charges. Thanks to Rose Marie Paz Wells. Dr. Virgilio Sanchez-Ocejo Miami UFO center
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 15 Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net> Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 01:41:24 -0500 Fwd Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 12:59:55 -0500 Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 17:55:43 +0000 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >From: John Rimmer <magonia@magonia.demon.co.uk> >Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >I do so enjoy Greg's musical diversions. Perhaps he could help >with a little game I was playing in Magonia a year or so ago: >classical music links to ufology. The British composer George >Lloyd wrote a movement called "Flying Saucers" for his Charade >Suite; there's Philip Glass's "Thousand Airplanes on the Roof", >an opera based on an abduction experience, and didn't he also >write "Itiapu", after the place in Brazil where there was a >famous military close encounter in the 50s? And of course >there's Tim Good who used to be a violinist with the London >Symphony Orchestra Leaving the ufological bits in John's message for later, and going straight to the fun stuff..... Yes, Philip did indeed write "Itiapu," but I don't believe there's any connection to UFOs. Philip spends part of every year in Brazil, so it's natural for him to write music with a Brazilian connection. Other classical music-UFO junctures...we'd have to include skeptic Robert Sheaffer, who's a fine amateur opera tenor. His singing can be heard on his website: http://hugin.imat.com/~sheaffer/ Ellen Crystall, of Pine Bush fame, writes or used to write New Age music, in a style pretty close to classical; her work (musical) isn't bad at all. She also has a PhD. in musicology, from New York University. She wrote her thesis, if I remember correctly, on spiritual 20th century composers. Bruce Maccabee plays the piano and composes in a lovely romantic classical style. Michael Daugherty, one of the leading young American classical composers, is having a piece called "UFO" premiered by the New York Philharmonic next season. Michael's music always has a pop culture connection; some of his other pieces are "Dead Elvis," "Jackie O" (an opera), "Route 66," and "Spaghetti Western." When the Philharmonic wrote a brief description of "UFO" for a large press package on its plans for next year, I was consulted (hard to believe, but true) on the ufology involved. Imagine my dismay when the draft copy said the UFO phenomenon began with the Roswell crash! I explained as simply and nonconfrontationally as I could that things really began with Kenneth Arnold, etc., etc., etc., but in vain. They stuck with what they wrote. What use is it to call on consultants if you don't take them seriously? (He said, a trace of a whine creeping into his voice.) I should have charged them. Then they would have _had_ to make the change. There's a ufologist who's active on the Project 1947 list who once played the banjo in a production of Kurt Weill's "Mahagonny" at the San Francisco Opera. I blush to say that I've forgotten his name. I hope I'm not leaving anybody out! And now for the shameless self-promoting plug. If anybody wants to hear my own music, or learn about my other musical activities -- to find out, for instance, why the Boston Symphony says even worse things about me than Dennis Stacy does (just kidding, Dennis!) -- do visit my website, http://www.gregsandow.com. Some more distant, not strictly ufological connections: There are visitors from space in Philip Glass's opera "The Voyage," commissioned by the Metropolitan some years ago. There were also space aliens (very amusing ones) in a work-in-progress by Meredith Monk, presented this past summer at the Jacob's Pillow Dance Festival. These aliens watched in disbelief as two humans chatted over dinner. Sometimes they'd paralyze the people, and step in to taste the food. As I remember, they were especially curious about corn on the cob. Poor Meredith -- I guess she didn't know that aliens like strawberry ice cream! Greg Sandow
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 15 Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net> Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 01:41:24 -0500 Fwd Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 13:13:51 -0500 Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 17:55:43 +0000 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >From: John Rimmer <magonia@magonia.demon.co.uk> >Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >I do so enjoy Greg's musical diversions. Perhaps he could help >with a little game I was playing in Magonia a year or so ago: >classical music links to ufology. The British composer George >Lloyd wrote a movement called "Flying Saucers" for his Charade >Suite; there's Philip Glass's "Thousand Airplanes on the Roof", >an opera based on an abduction experience, and didn't he also >write "Itiapu", after the place in Brazil where there was a >famous military close encounter in the 50s? And of course >there's Tim Good who used to be a violinist with the London >Symphony Orchestra Leaving the ufological bits in John's message for later, and going straight to the fun stuff..... Yes, Philip did indeed write "Itiapu," but I don't believe there's any connection to UFOs. Philip spends part of every year in Brazil, so it's natural for him to write music with a Brazilian connection. Other classical music-UFO junctures...we'd have to include skeptic Robert Sheaffer, who's a fine amateur opera tenor. His singing can be heard on his website: http://hugin.imat.com/~sheaffer/ Ellen Crystall, of Pine Bush fame, writes or used to write New Age music, in a style pretty close to classical; her work (musical) isn't bad at all. She also has a PhD. in musicology, from New York University. She wrote her thesis, if I remember correctly, on spiritual 20th century composers. Bruce Maccabee plays the piano and composes in a lovely romantic classical style. Michael Daugherty, one of the leading young American classical composers, is having a piece called "UFO" premiered by the New York Philharmonic next season. Michael's music always has a pop culture connection; some of his other pieces are "Dead Elvis," "Jackie O" (an opera), "Route 66," and "Spaghetti Western." When the Philharmonic wrote a brief description of "UFO" for a large press package on its plans for next year, I was consulted (hard to believe, but true) on the ufology involved. Imagine my dismay when the draft copy said the UFO phenomenon began with the Roswell crash! I explained as simply and nonconfrontationally as I could that things really began with Kenneth Arnold, etc., etc., etc., but in vain. They stuck with what they wrote. What use is it to call on consultants if you don't take them seriously? (He said, a trace of a whine creeping into his voice.) I should have charged them. Then they would have _had_ to make the change. There's a ufologist who's active on the Project 1947 list who once played the banjo in a production of Kurt Weill's "Mahagonny" at the San Francisco Opera. I blush to say that I've forgotten his name. I hope I'm not leaving anybody out! And now for the shameless self-promoting plug. If anybody wants to hear my own music, or learn about my other musical activities -- to find out, for instance, why the Boston Symphony says even worse things about me than Dennis Stacy does (just kidding, Dennis!) -- do visit my website, http://www.gregsandow.com. Some more distant, not strictly ufological connections: There are visitors from space in Philip Glass's opera "The Voyage," commissioned by the Metropolitan some years ago. There were also space aliens (very amusing ones) in a work-in-progress by Meredith Monk, presented this past summer at the Jacob's Pillow Dance Festival. These aliens watched in disbelief as two humans chatted over dinner. Sometimes they'd paralyze the people, and step in to taste the food. As I remember, they were especially curious about corn on the cob. Poor Meredith -- I guess she didn't know that aliens like strawberry ice cream! Greg Sandow
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 15 Re: 'Chrome Football' Shuttle Footage From: Sean Jones <tedric@tedric.demon.co.uk> Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 21:24:08 +0000 Fwd Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 16:00:39 -0500 Subject: Re: 'Chrome Football' Shuttle Footage >Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 14:47:04 -0500 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> >Subject: Re: 'Chrome Football' Shuttle Footage >Hello All, >If one of my Listmates in the UK would make a video recording of >this for me I would send $ to cover any and all expenses. I am >especially interested in securing a copy of this shuttle >footage. If you can do this for me, contact me privately at >jvif@spacelab.net and we'll make arrangements. Thank you. (I can >have the tape transferred from PAL to VHS format on this end, so >not to worry about incompatibility.) >Peace, >John Velez Hiya John, You sweet-talked me :-) I'll let you have a copy of my copy if you want :-) I can't record NTSC but I can watch NTSC, is it the same with you and PAL? -- In an infinite universe infinitely anything is possible. Sean Jones Homepage--http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Zone/1745/index.htm UFO page--http://www.tedric.demon.co.uk/
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 15 X-Rays Of Suspected 'Implant' From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 04:08:45 -0500 Fwd Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 16:14:58 -0500 Subject: X-Rays Of Suspected 'Implant' Hi All, A couple of months ago I sent out a .jpg of an x-ray that was sent to us for analysis. I wanted an 'independant' expert(s) to conduct the testing or analysis ob the x-rays and a couple of other 'anomalous objects' that we had in our possession. Nick Balaskas was kind enough to perform this service. As I promised, here are some preliminary results of that analysis. As you will see, the radiologist at York seems to think that the 'object' is _outside_ of the subjects head. Not _inside_. Interesting. None of the other physicians and radiologists I have shown them to said anything of the kind. This report will be added to the database. When I have the final reports in my hands I will post to this list as I promised. Peace, John Velez ================== '>' = me, JV No '>' = Nick B. On Sat, 6 Feb 1999, John wrote: >Hi Nick, >Thanx for the update! >Yes, you can cut or examine the bead in any way necessary to >determine its composition. Thanks for the okay. I expect to have some facts for you on this bead soon. >The "subject" in the x-rays recently (within a month) suffered >a mild stroke. He is fine, I have communicated with him. He is >being managed with medication and all his faculties appear to >be intact. As a result of this hospital stay, there are now a set >of MRI scans and scads of other (very recent) medical data >available. I have already requested as much of the new material >as he can provide. He's a good guy and very cooperative. I'm sure >we'll be able to provide whatever you guys may need. Let's see >what comes in the package he sends me. Tell the radiologist >that more will be on the way as soon as it in my possesion. I am sorry to hear about the mild stroke and I pray that he has a quick and full recovery. I visited the radiologist and she confirmed our findings that the "implant" seems to be completely _outside_ the head and body area altogether. I am returning the three medical x-rays to you separately by mail along with a full report of our findings (York University and The Michener Institute). If there any new x-rays or the MRI show any other foreign objects, we would certainly be very interested in seeing these too. >Interesting stuff. Please keep me posted as to progress. I >doubt that anything will ever prove to be 'conclusive' but >all these little bits and pieces may one day begin to add >up to something significant. Thanx again for your efforts. There are a few more tests that need to be done on the compass and do not have a reply from the compass supplier yet regarding some questions. I will let you know about our findings on the compass and bead before I return them to you along with our reports. Bye for now. Nick --- ________________________________________________ jvif@spacelab.net INTRUDERS FOUNDATION/ABDUCTION INFORMATION CENTER http://www.if-aic.com "Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind." ________________________________________________
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 15 Re: 'Alien Abduction' - A Book Review From: Josh Goldstein <clearlt@pacbell.net> Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 02:14:56 -0800 Fwd Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 16:19:25 -0500 Subject: Re: 'Alien Abduction' - A Book Review >Source: Fortean Times > #119 March 1999 [North America] > page 56 >------ >Alien Abduction >Peter Brookesmith >Blandford >Cassell, London. 1998, hb >=A315.99, pp176, index, illus. >ISBN 0-7137-2701-0 >Peter Brookesmith's latest fearless foray into the bogs of >contemporary ufology bluntly states its premise on the second >page of text: "To step outside the rituals of the 'believer' >versus 'skeptic' debate: for that has long since grown stale, >and it often seems that the two sides are shouting so loudly >that neither can hear what the other is saying." >If abductions aren't to be taken literally, however, how are >they to be taken? Here Brookesmith's middle road runs into a few >potholes of its own, arguably because there is no single easy >answer, as the author himself admits, but a constellation of >causes or circumstances that can't be readily circumscribed. >Thus some will take his conclusion -- that "Whichever way we read >the myth, it insists on telling us that we are the aliens" -- as >little more than a platitude. But then one would have to ask, >among other questions, why the aliens' concerns -- about issues >of gene extraction, manipulation, and future survivability -- >expressed in their reported actions while simultaneously denied >in their evident lack of emotions, so closely mimic our own >current concerns. >Dennis Stacy I hope everyone in the UpDates family had a lovely Valentine experience whether with your sweetheart on earth beside you or with your sweetheart inside your own heart. Your Self. Hi Dennis, Interesting review of the tome of the Duke of Mendoza in which he took the road less traveled or maintained. After you cited a few of his key points and his conclusion you posited your own statement. Man, getting support fo a closer answer to your hypothesis most likely belongs to the province of Psychiatry. They can help you see if there is a road for your cerebral quest and an answer to your question. Please watch out for the potholes and drink extra Gripple.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 15 Re: Robert Todd On MJ-12 From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net> Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 08:32:45 -0400 Fwd Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 16:24:50 -0500 Subject: Re: Robert Todd On MJ-12 >From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com> >Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 10:04:07 EST >To: updates@globalserve.net >Subject: Re: Robert Todd On MJ-12 >Stan, list, all - <snip> >But isn't it interesting that Moore talked of creating a >"Roswell" document before MJ-12 surfaced? Isn't it interesting >that Moore and Bob Pratt wrote a novel that contained references >to MJ-12 before the documents surfaced? Isn't it interesting >that all of the early documents were traceable back to Moore and >no further? And, isn't it interesting that two of those >documents, the CIA MJ-5 document and the Aquarius Telex are seen >as being bogus by nearly everyone, and the source of them is >Moore too? >This is a long-winded answer to Stan's questions about why Moore >would fly clear across the country to do this. He wanted a >source that was traceable back into the government, even if he >had to be the conduit of that trace. >KRandle I certainly appreciate the calm tone of Kevin's postingr. I still can find no evidence that Moore and Shandera faked the CTMemo or the EBD or the post cards. Remember that they both flew to DC, that I was in very close touch with them for years prior to and after the discovery. Finding a memo in a box where it doesn't belong and having several features just asking for trouble, hardly provides an adequate provenance. Bob Wood's document examiner, Mr. Black, has already professionally stated that the TF memo typeface is appropriate for the time frame . That will be published shortly if it hasn't been already. Nobody seems to be mentioning that it was TIM GOOD in the UK that first published the EBD. Bill Moore was indeed given to playing games. That is a far cry from him and Jaime being professional document forgers. I wish we could date the ink on the CT-memo, might help. Surely a forger would want to have the forgery in his possession so that it could be sold. The CT memo cannot be removed from the Archives. I should also point out that not only is there no signature on the CT but no /s/ as is on a memo from Cutler to Twining at the LCMD. I have been told that forgers are normally very very careful to do nothing that calls their work into question. That is certainly not the case here. with the unusual Classification, traceable paper etc Kevin is aware that I have dealt at length with his objections to the MJ-12 documents in my 37 page, l994, paper "Operation Majestic 12? YES!". I am pleased that at least I am not being named as a forger. Even Phil Klass hasn't gone that far. While most on this list are probably aware that Kevin and I have had strong differences, they may not be as aware that the communicatons between Kevin and Don Schmitt and Bill and Jaime were as I recall much stronger. Stan Friedman
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 15 Re: Odd Early Morning Sky Glows in Pennsylvania From: Brian Straight <brians@mdbs.com> Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 09:06:41 -0500 Fwd Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 17:31:48 -0500 Subject: Re: Odd Early Morning Sky Glows in Pennsylvania >From: Stan Gordon <paufo@westol.com> >To: UFO Updates -Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>, >Subject: Odd Early Morning Sky Glows in Pennsylvania >Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 00:18:18 -0500 >Odd Early Morning Sky Glows in Pennsylvania >>From Stan Gordon >PA UFO Hotline (724-838-7768) >www.westol.com/~paufo >Within the last few weeks, I have had two similar reports of >unusual early morning glows in the sky. The first occurred on >January 18, 1999 about 6:20 A.M. in the direction of >Sheakleyville, PA in Mercer County. Witnesses reported looking >due north, and saw the entire northern horizon illuminated with >a fiery red color. I would hazard that this is undoubtedly auroral in nature. I have seen aurora that look very like a sunrise or sunset, especially in the more southerly latitudes. We are approaching a time of maximum sunspot activity, with a concomitant increase in aurora visible from lower latitudes. Unfortunately, I don't have activity reports for the day you mentioned to hand, but I could research them if you like. As for the second sighting in the south--clearly not auroral in nature. Brian
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 15 Tim Matthews/Aka Tim Hepple From: Marc Bell <MARC@wufog.freeserve.co.uk> Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 14:57:19 -0000 Fwd Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 18:00:18 -0500 Subject: Tim Matthews/Aka Tim Hepple Hi I recieved this earlier today, I presume its probably connected with the current debate on 'The Sheffield Incident'? Does any one know its source? All the best, Marc (Woolwich UFO Research Group) ----- From: The Terminator <terminator2001@hotmail.com> To: eotl@west.net <eotl@west.net> Date: 15 February 1999 00:51 Subject: Tim Matthews/Aka Tim Hepple THE REAL - LIFE X-FILES ---------------------------------------------------------------- (The Resurfacing of Agent Provocateur Tim Hepple) AKA Ufologist Tim Matthews Tim Hepple infiltrated GA through the Lancaster based Autonomy anti-poll tax group in 1991 but was exposed by Larry O'Hara in 1993. During this time, he posed as an Eco-teur, wrote the Eco-defenders Handbook, and laid the groundwork for the Gandalf prosecution, so militant Greens could be presented as an 'ecoterrorist threat'. Hepple resurfaced as 'Tim Matthew's' in 1997. Despite claims to have been broken with his past, when the Anti-Deception Committee confronted him on 24th January 1998 at his 'When Worlds Collide' UFO conference in Stockport, they found his old Searchlight crony, Ray Hill amongst his heavies. Attendees were unimpressed by Hepples thuggery when the ADC were thrown out for leafleting (text below) - a third walked out immediately. New Ufology or old MI5 dirty tricks? Today's conference has been organised by Tim Matthew's who presents himself as the rising star of the UFO movement. He is keen advocate of something he term the "new Ufology" which suggests that the military are behind UFO events. When listening to Matthew's, we advise you to bear in mind his extremely violent and suspect past activities about which, as far as we know, he has not come clean. It is our concern about his past, and the fact that good people who he sought to trick are now serving 3 years jail sentences that explains our presence here today. Matthew's has written an account of his past, It is called At War with Society, and it is written under his real name, Tim Hepple. While containing some outrageous lies (fully dealt with in Larry O'Hara's book, at War with the Truth) the admissions are damaging enough. After starting off as a football thug (p.1) and flirting with he National Front n 1985 (p2) Hepple joined the BNP in 1986 (p3) and was at that time "a hard-line national socialist" (p.3). Hepple admitted to being at this time a Nazi thug "enjoying slagging people off" and getting info fights". If this is all he ever was, a Nazi loser who has now (1998) reformed his ways, we couldn't care less - good luck to him we'd say. But his activities were not in light of evidence, some of which is here revealed for the first time, merely those of a political loser but something far more sinister, a thug seeming to act under licence from the stare and therefore immune from prosecution for thuggery. On 27/2/88 there was a fight between BNP paper seller and anti-fascists in Sheffield. The police were (suspiciously) close by the scene, and one of them (PC Rowlands was set upon by Hepple and two other fascists, Baynes & Thorpe. According to the police statement by the defendants Baynes, Hepple & Thorpe... this caused the officer to receive abrasion to his jaw, swelling and bleeding on the inside of his mouth. When this case finally came to court in April 1989, while the other two received six months jail sentences, Hepple miraculously had his charges dropped! Not surprisingly, even the BNP (not known for quick thinking) began to suspect that Hepple was receiving protection from some higher authority, and decided to hold a Tribunal of Enquiry, which Hepple admits was sorted by a political ally so that it became "nothing more than a formality". As for the assault on the police officer, while elsewhere Hepple happily boasts of beating up anti-fascists in particular of this incident all he had to say was "considering I hadn't even been involved this was nonsense" After being acquitted by the BNP Tribunal the very next thing Hepple did was attend and play an active part in the BNP invasion of Dewsbury in June 1989, indeed he boasts that: "I take a lot of responsibility for the Dewsbury riot... leading hundreds of young thugs." He even admits being the provider of the army smoke bomb put in my bag the morning before the riot". Given this riot led to the arrest of 82 primarily local Asian youths he has a lot to answer for and so too do those people within the state who on the evidence we have outlined above, seem to have decided he was such a valuable state asset inside the fascist movement that he was even allowed to beat up police and get away wit it by having the charges dropped before it came to trial. Isn't that the most logical explanation? If you doubt it, just ask yourself what would happen if you decided to beat up your local policeman (or woman) in full view of their colleague and two passer by. Do you really think it wouldn't even come to trial? Of course you don't but then 'agent Hepple' was (and is) no ordinary member of the public. Hepple & the Searchlight Gang Hepple next admits to having contacted the supposedly 'anti-fascist' Searchlight organisation in 1990, a year after the Dewsbury riot. Searchlight run a magazine of that name, and hawk stories concerning the far right to the media, as the 'public face' of their activities. In reality, as has been demonstrated by numerous commentators such as Duncan Campbell, Lobster magazine and even by Searchlight editor Gerry Gable (in a leaked 1977 memo) they act as spies of MI5 and in the past Special Branch, and spreaders of misinformation about a range of radical causes including Welsh nationalists, animal rights activists, anarchists, anti-poll tax protesters, indeed anybody the political police doesn't like. It is our view that Hepple was working for Searchlight/ the State when he beat up the policeman as far back as 1988, and organised the Dewsbury riot in 1989. NO wonder he doesn't want to talk about his past as an agent provocateur. We do. Hepple claimed that he was "Witness tot he early event in the life of (neo-nazi thugs) Combat 18 and I reported back to Searchlight." In 1994 Searchlight called for MI5 to be given legal powers to investigate C18. Yet in 1995, for political reasons, Searchlight announced that C18 had in fact been set up by MI5. Hepple even appeared in a World in Action documentary describing in sickening detail a brutal C18 attack. Clearly 'Agent Hepple ' had been taking part in yet another episode of political thuggery sanctioned if not organised at the highest level by the Security Services. Agent Hepple & the Green Anarchists. In A lie too far & At War with the Truth extensive information has been published concerning his infiltration of t hi s group, as well as his attempt to infiltrate Class War and other left-wing groups, at the same time as he was supposedly mealy an "anti-fascists" infiltrating the BNP. Hepple's failed attempt to turn Green Anarchist into an armed gang which would dance to the state's tune is proved by extensive correspondence in his own handwriting which he has not dared to deny is by him. Why not ask him? Rather than repeat the overwhelming and damming evidence contained within those two pamphlets (to which neither he nor Searchlight have ever dared reply, or respond to O'Hara's repeated requests for them to sue him), we seek to draw your attention to some new evidence, as well as one point Hepple admitted in At War with Society that should be overlooked in 1989 he joined the army intending: "To work up from the bottom up and try to develop my language skills and move into an intelligence role." He writes that he does not intend to "dwell on this experience" which means he choose not to mention his (backed up by non-police witnesses) who phoned the police during the fight): The officer remained on the floor' and suffered indiscriminate kicking to his body and head, administered" Surely good reasons for not "dwelling" on this phase of his life, those who have been his targets and are now, such as the Ufologist community would do well to remember this. In November last, three people associated with the Green Anarchist newspaper collective - Steve Booth, Noel Molland & Sax Wood, were jailed in Portsmouth for three years by a judge who was formerly a military judge, the notorious drunk Judge Selwood. Their supposed 'crime' was inciting persons unknown to conspire with others) also unknown) to commit crimes (unknown) over a five year period. This supposedly constituted a (indictment, P2) Conspiracy to incite criminal damage to be caused ... and to incite actions beyond lawful and democratic means of protest. The real complaint the state has about them is they published news of animal rights and other direct actions against injustice in the Green Anarchist newspaper, and as such had to be politically crushed. The relevant issues of Green Anarchist they were persecuted for issues 29-38 inclusive. And you will already have guessed when it was that Hepple started to infiltrate and write for Green Anarchist - that's right, issue 29! What a surprise then (or not) that although the main crux of the prosecution case was a supposed conspiracy between GA and supporters of the ALF, one article that appeared in issue 29, written by Hepple, was not included in the indictment. And yet this article called upon reader to Use the ALF as an Example of practical and spontaneous opposition to animal abuse. Similar methods and organisation should be utilised for a wider range of activities here and now! For issue 31, Hepple supplied the addresses of BNP leader John Tyndall & Fascist printer Tony Hancock, which were both later attacked. At issue here is not the rights and wrongs of these attacks but the basic fact that whereas others involved in GA have been sent down for three years for a supposed conspiracy to incite others to commit criminal damage there is no proof ever happened as a result of articles in GA, or happened at all, a different se of rules appointed to Hepple. In clear echoes of this Sheffield immunity, while nearly sixty associates of Green Anarchist were questioned or turned over by the police, and some repeatedly, not only was Hepple (a key contribution) never charged as a result of writing these articles, according to a police report Hepple was never even questioned! According to this report dated 29/8/95 & written by PC Guy Collyer, Hepple's then partner (now) Mrs Matthew's) Linda Suggett "said that Hepple would not speak to meet me and wanted no involvement". Indeed without (supposedly) questioning him Collyer made the inspirational deduction (or was he just obeying order?) that Hepple was "probably not involved in GA's incitement campaign". He adds "it is not known whether Hepple could have supplied any useful information". . Can you credit this? DO you really think the state didn't know he wrote the above articles, at least as inciting if not more than those for which people are today in jail? And he wasn't even questioned? Hardly credible again, how many criminals of any description would ever be convicted if all they have to do is get a friend or whoever to state they don't want to speak to the police? It's bullshit, isn't it? But again, as in the case of Sheffield former (??) Army Intelligence operative Hepple leads a very charmed life indeed doesn't he?.... Bringing It Back to Earth Which explains why we here today to for analysis of his past activities seems to show three things of relevance: 1) He is thug and proven liar and a voracious gatherer of intelligence and personal detail of activist of any sort, of precisely the kind MI5/Special Branch & indeed Army Intelligence are interested in. 2) Where he is involved, the political police have an interest, whether it is disclosed sooner or later. 4) Disrupting existing groups, setting up dummy groups and urging 5) others to take 'direct action' (for which they rather than he 6) carry the can) seems never to be far from his mind. Bearing this in mind, we give all Ufologists this friendly warning - don't trust this chameleon, don't give him access to your mailing list, don't listen to him if (as part of his "new Ufology) he urges you to say invade military bases. Or perhaps buzz them in his friend's helicopter! We say this not because we are pacifists, but because Hepple/Matthew's is big trouble, and in our past experience of him, his involvement in your field s intended at the very least to sow confusion and dissension. What better way for MI5/Special Branch or indeed t he Ministry of Defence to justify spending scarce resources on political surveillance of the Ufologist community than sending in assets like we believe Hepple/Matthew's to be -to lay the ground an and put people in the frame. And to his current political views they're anybody's guess - but his uncritical praise of the mythical achievements of nazi science' in the Sightings article shows that's one part of his ideological baggage still very near to and. In the end though, as further extensively detailed in A lie too far and At War With the Truth, he's a low-life thug provocateur and spy - and you should boot him out of community before he succeeds in wrecking it. 'Good research' - that's the way to do it! Any further information received and acted upon at the address below in strictest confidence and remember 'Tim, the Truth is out there, and you're still at war with it! THE ANTI-DECEPTION COMMITTEE, BM BOX 4769, LONDON WCIN 3XX. Reproduced from GA # with kind permission. Hanky-panky in the British UFO world taken from 'Lobster' No 34 Winter 1998, p23 The former Searchlight agent provocateur, Tim Hepple, is now cruising the British UFO world under the guise of 'Tim Matthews' of the 'Lancashire UFO Society'. A major attempt to spread disinformation through the British UFO magazines is underway. Kevin McClure wrote about this in the second editon of his new newsletter 'Abduction Watch'. Although the content of the stories varies from claims of secret British operations to cover-up the murder and mutilation of British citizens by aliens, to more mundane tales of secret bases and secret military units, tbe seven or eight stories in the past couple of years all have one thing in common: the source is anonymous and claims to be in some branch of the British military. In what is presumably part of the same operation, Armen Victorian received a phone-call this October from a man claiming to be a taxi-driver who had found a briefcase left in his cab with some official papers in it -- an oldie but a goodie, that one! This 'taxi-driver' then tried to run part of this disintbrmation project, the story about alien contact with the British state, past him. What the purpose of this disinformation operation is -- your guess is as good as mine (or McClure's). Update ('Lobster' No 35 Summer 1998, p22) My two-line squib about Tim Matthews' previous incarnation as Tim Hepple in Lobster 34 seems to have set the cat among the UFOlogical pigeons. In response to it Mr Matthews sent out a document to various 'UFO researchers' , in which he said the following: "In late 1991 I undertook to engage in undercover work for an internationally respected anti-fascist investigative magazine called Searchlight having previously been briefly involved with the British National Party in 1988/9 ....the work involved my joining the British National Party and meeting some very dangerous individuals. Within weeks of moving to London I was working at the BNP headquarters where I had access to the names and addresses of hundreds of fascist activists and sympathisers. These were passed onto the Searchlight team. In addition, I was able to expose the birth of a particularly nasty group called 'Combat 18' set up by a group of football hooligans and organised with the help of an notorious American nazi called Harold Covington." As students of Larry O'Hara will know, this is not quite the whole story. Later in the piece Mr Matthews wrote this: "Lobster has suggested there is a government conspiracy to disinform the UFO community about abductions (see issue 34) partly involving an anonymous "taxi driver" who phoned Mr Victorian recently ......Any such conspiracy, were it to exist, could not possibly involve me (I don't have a driving license for a start!)....". Mr Matthews is denying something I did not suggest.... ---------------------------------------------------------------- Update... Since the above feature was posted on this site, I have come across the following gems which might be of interest to anyone intrigued by the career of Hepple/Matthews. Flying Saucers - Secret History The Real X-Files. The Terminator (Cleaning House for the ufo community)
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 15 BWW Media Alert Update 19990215 From: Bufo Calvin <BufoCalvin@aol.com> Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 09:48:54 EST Fwd Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 18:06:11 -0500 Subject: BWW Media Alert Update 19990215 Bufo Calvin P O Box 5231, Walnut Creek, CA 94596 Internet: BufoCalvin@aol.com Website: <A HREF="http://members.aol.com/bufocalvin">http://members.aol.com/bufo calvin<;/a> <A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/redirect-home/bufosweirdworld"> Link to Amazon.com</a> ALL RIGHTS RESERVED (permission is granted to reproduce or redistribute this edi tion of Bufo's WEIRD WORLD provided that attribution is made to http://members.a ol.com/bufocalvin. It is good etiquette to check with strangers before you e-mai l them something. If you forward this, please make sure it is clear that you ar e forwarding it). February 15, 1999 Consider this an revised version of the short one I sent yesterday. I pretty much stayed off the computer, in support of Valentine's Day, but I felt I should do more than I sent out. For instance, I apologize for missing the repeat of A&E's ANCIENT MYSTERIES WITH LEONARD NIMOY: BIGFOOT, about which a correspondent was nice enough to e-mail yesterday. Unfortunately, it ran last night, but it available commercially at It's not bad, and This is the week CONFIRMATION: THE HARD EVIDENCE OF ALIENS AMONG US? on NBC. As I mentioned last time, this is one of the more significant television broadcasts on weird topics. One unusual element is that Whitley Strieber (author of <A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0312967047/bufosweirdworld"> Confirmation (paperback)</A>, on which it is based) is a co-Executive Producer of the special. I have heard many times that people have felt manipulated by the Producers of shows...for example, author Budd Hopkins in Nova's KIDNAPPED BY UFOS? (( <A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/6303996043/bufosweirdworld"> NOVA: Kidnapped by UFOs? (video)</A>). It seems less likely in this case. Hopkins and John Mack are both scheduled to appear in the special. Other highlights include: The Tremble County Disturbance (1993 Ohio: several police officers see a UFO. Audio from the time is played, and one officer is interviewed); UFO Evidence (films and photos, include the McMinville Trent still shots); The Jesse Long Story (an L.A. abductee); The Black Vault story (heavy-duty conspiracy website (<A HREF="http://www.blackvault.com/"> http://www.blackvault.com/<;/A>); and Streiber himself. For more information, see the NBC press release at <A HREF="http://www.nbc.com/tvcentral/mms/frpv_specials.html">NBC Specials: Confirmation</A>. Tomorrow, the fifteenth, is the deadline for me for Bufo's WEIRD WORLD Watch (tentative title) for the April issue of FATE. If you'd like to send me any weird reports, I'd appreciate it. Everything has to have a citable source. It's a great way to direct people to your website, if I use it. E-mail me for more information. On to the listings: Times are generally Pacific. TELEVISION A&E Sunday, February 14, 3:00 PM, THE UNEXPLAINED: HAUNTINGS Next Sunday, February 28, 7:00 PM, ANCIENT MYSTERIES WITH LEONARD NIMOY: SEARCH FOR THE ABOMINABLE SNOWMAN THE DISCOVERY CHANNEL Sunday, February 14, 12:30 PM, ARTHUR C. CLARKE'S MYSTERIOUS UNIVERSE, STRANGE POWERS OF ANIMALS Sunday, February 21, 12:30 PM, ARTHUR C. CLARKE'S WORLD OF STRANGE POWERS: AN ELEMENT OF THE DIVINE (dowsing) Next Thursday, February 25, 9:00 PM, AMERICA'S HAUNTED HOUSES Next Thursday, February 25, 10:00 PM, INTO THE UNKNOWN: SUPERNATURAL BEINGS Next Friday, February 26, 12:00 AM, AMERICA'S HAUNTED HOUSES Next Friday, February 26, 1:00 AM, INTO THE UNKNOWN: SUPERNATURAL BEINGS Next Friday, February 26, 8:00 PM, OZ ENCOUNTERS: UFOS IN AUSTRALIA (I've suggested this one before...nice little documentary with first person stuff and minimal theorizing) Next Friday, February 26, 11:00 PM, OZ ENCOUNTERS: UFOS IN AUSTRALIA (I've suggested this one before...nice little documentary with first-person stuff and minimal theorizing) THE HISTORY CHANNEL Sunday, February 21, 7:00 PM, HISTORY UNDERCOVER: ROSWELL, AN ALIEN OBSESSION Sunday, February 21, 11:00 PM, HISTORY UNDERCOVER: ROSWELL, AN ALIEN OBSESSION Next Wednesday, February 24, 11:00 AM, THE 20TH CENTURY WITH MIKE WALLACE: ARE WE ALONE? (UFOs) Next Monday, February 22, 5:00 PM, ALIEN HUNTERS (unclear if this is appropriate to this list or SETI) Next Monday, February 22, 9:00 PM, ALIEN HUNTERS (unclear if this is appropriate to this list or SETI) Next Tuesday, February 22, 1:00 AM, ALIEN HUNTERS (unclear if this is appropriate to this list or SETI) Next Wednesday, February 24, 4:00 PM, THE 20TH CETNURY WITH MIKE WALLACE: ARE WE ALONE? (UFOs) THE LEARNING CHANNEL NBC Wednesday, February 17, 8:00 PM, CONFIRMATION: THE HARD EVIDENCE OF ALIENS AMONG US? THE SCIENCE CHANNEL The new schedule (since December 28, 1998) is weird programming for an hour each at 3:00 AM, 11:00 AM,and 7:00 PM. Alternating shows are: INTO THE UNKNOWN and ARTHUR C. CLARKE'S MYSTERIOUS UNIVERSE. They also run a Roswell show now every other week (it's probably the same show every time) at 4:00 AM and noon on Sundays. THE SCI-FI CHANNEL Tuesday, February 16, 11:00 AM, SIGHTINGS: EPISODE #4031 (multi-generational alien contact; Bigfoot museum; faith healer; Peru) Wednesday, February 17, 11:00 AM SIGHTINGS, EPISODE #4032: (Georgia UFO; psychic cop; haunting) Thursday, February 18, 11:00 AM SIGHTINGS: EPISODE #4033 (Oregon ghost train; alien autopsy; Tesla) Friday, February 19, 11:00 AM SIGHTINGS: EPISODE #4034 (jetliner and UFO; Nostradamus) Next Tuesday, February 23, 11:00 AM, SIGHTINGS: EPISODE #4035 (UFO; ghost town with ghosts; Hale-Bopp comet) Next Wednesday, February 24, 11:00 AM, SIGHTINGS: EPISODE #4036 (UFOs; angels; haunted highway; alien autopsy) Next Thursday, February 25, 11:00 AM, SIGHTINGS: EPISODE #4037 (Colorado haunting; unidentified submarine object) Next Friday, February 26, 11:00 AM, SIGHTINGS :EPISODE #4038 (D.C. UFOs; Whitley Strieber; exorcism in Japan) SYNDICATED THE MONTEL WILLIAMS SHOW: At least one station is re-running the recent one with psychic Sylvia Browne on Tuesday, February 16 THE ROSEANNE SHOW: Next Thursday, February 25: psychic and author James Van Praagh ___________________________ ___________________________ This is Bufo saying, "If =everything= seemed normal, that =would= be weird!" ____________________________
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 15 Re: Pope On A Rope From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net> Date: Mon, 15 Feb 99 11:41:26 PST Fwd Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 18:16:21 -0500 Subject: Re: Pope On A Rope >Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 12:36:27 -0500 >From: Andy Roberts <Brigantia@compuserve.com> >Subject: Re: Pope On A Rope >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net> >>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Pope On A Rope >>Date: Mon, 08 Feb 99 16:22:13 PST >>I'm glad that this little episode is keeping our British friends >>amused. To me, however, it's one hell of a bore, much ado about >>not much at all. Nick Pope is hardly the only apparently sane >>human being who believes he has had an abduction experience, and >>who can blame him for not wanting to broadcast his conviction? >>I hope against hope that this one gets a rest soon. >As usual Jerry gets some facts right but misses the point >completely. >The issue with Popey is not what imaginary experience he is >claiming - to fantasise is his perogative - but that this >'experience' took place *before* he was involved with the MOD. >He has, on several occasions, stated he had no interest in or >knowledge of UFOs *prior* to working at the MOD. I'm afraid our friend shows his hand here. We are informed, with precisely no evidence bearing one way or another on the question, that Nick Pope's (er, excuse me, "Popey's") experience was "imaginary." How do we know? Why, Andy told us so! That being the case, how could we doubt? And who would believe somebody called "Popey" anyway? Pope's alleged crime here seems about as serious as that of the debunking writer who claims, at the outset of a UFO-bashing book or lecture, that he "would love to believe" in visiting aliens and that he looked at the evidence "hoping" to find such. Uh huh. Anybody who believes that, please contact me -- I've got a great price on a bridge in Brooklyn. Likewise, pro-UFO writers love to tell us that they were "skeptical" when they set out expecting to "disprove" the UFO phenomenon, only to be persuaded to the contrary by the weight of the evidence. If it were a crime to lie about these things, the prisons of the world would be even more crowded than they sadly are already. Beyond that, I am reminded of a favorite expression of an old history professor of mine. He used to say that for everything, there's the good reason and the real reason. Andy Roberts has told us the good reason. The real reason here appears to be to punish Pope for the heresy of (1) thinking UFOs may represent something important, possibly including (gasp!) extraterrestrial visitation, and (2) undergoing an abduction experience, than which nothing is more deserving of the stake in some quarters. It seems to me that the Pope matter is worth noting as a matter of some small passing interest, then relegating to obscurity. (Of more interest, of course, would be an actual investigation of his abduction report, but hey, ridicule and dismissal are much easier, and so much more satisfying.) We may anticipate, with dreary certainty, that the significance of Pope's reluctance to broadcast his perceived experience will be inflated and flogged like a dead horse. Jerry Clark
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 15 Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality From: Jean-Luc Rivera <JLRIV1@aol.com> Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 12:06:34 EST Fwd Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 18:20:47 -0500 Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality Hi Greg, Dennis and list members, >From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 15:08:35 -0500 >>Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 21:29:38 -0600 (CST) >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >>From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net> >>Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality <big snip> >>No one having allegedly experienced an abduction in the 1920s, >>for example, could use fear of UFO ridicule as an excuse for not >>coming forward, given that UFO ridicule wouldn't exist for >>another 20+ years. Indeed, the 20s (and the turn of the century) >>were quite promotive of claims of extraterrestrial beings. One >>might argue that anyone experiencing little grays at the time >>would have beat down the doors of their neighborhood Freudian >>shrink in order to tell their story. Much else is there -- but >>no patently recognizable abductions and alien grays. Why not? >>It's not an idle question. Why did no hint of alien abductions >>surface anywhere prior to the Hill account (or, if you prefer, >>the 1957 Villas Boas case)? If one assumes that today's >>abductees were routinely being abducted in their early youth, as >>they now claim? >>We're also now being told that it's all in the family; >>generation after generation is tracked, followed (implanted?) >>and abducted. _Then where in God's name is the pre-Hill evidence >>of same?_ Where, anywhere, is there evidence that abductions are >>anything remotely resembling a "routine" or ongoing occurrence? >Jean-Luc Rivera has compiled a dossier of UFO cases before the >abduction era, in which abductions seem to have occured. I'll >let him comment further. Some time ago, I went through my own relatively extensive collection of UFO litterature (both books and magazines) and found a few cases published before the Hills' and Villas-Boas went to print where there were indications of what we call now abduction symptoms (like missing time, strange dreams or bedroom visitors). Were they 'real' abductions in the meaning of today? Were they something else? We will never know for sure. I might publish something with the list of those potential abduction reports one day. I will disagree with some of Dennis comments: back in the 50's and 60's, ufologists of the time, embattled with the contactees and trying desperately to gain some "respectability , were censoring their own investigations quite often. In print were disappearing the witness mention of occupants, of parapsychological phenomena and other 'off the norm' details. This might be one of the explanations for the absence of potentially indicative of abduction reports. Another is that if you don't think about asking some questions to the witness, you will not get the answers. Thirty years ago, nobody was asking the 'right' questions. And back in the 20's, despite the wide interest for the Martians, there was also a lot of ridicule towards the mediums channelling either spirits or Martians. Nothing has changed much: without precluding of the nature of the experience, the experiencer who comes forward for reporting his story has to show a lot of courage. It was true 70 years ago, it is true today. Best regards Jean-Luc Rivera
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 15 Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net> Date: Mon, 15 Feb 99 13:15:53 PST Fwd Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 18:24:34 -0500 Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 18:32:06 -0600 (CST) >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net> >Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >>From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net> >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >>Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >>Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 15:08:35 -0500 >My point, however, which you seem to have ignored, was that the >cultural climate regarding such matters was quite different then >(when abductions supposedly began) than it is now. As a >consequence, I suggested, no climate of ridicule would have >surrounded alien encounter experiences any more than the other >experiences which were being freely reported at the time. My >next question was, so why don't we see 'em? Seemed like a >logical follow on to me. Dennis, With all due respect, the statements above are based on nothing at all, except a desire to advance a point of view you find congenial. I would love to see some sort of evidence -- _any_ evidence -- that somebody could report an encounter with alien visitors prior to the UFO era and not meet withering ridicule. The turn-of-the-century UFO wave suggests the contrary, in fact. The notion that "airships" might be piloted by "Martians" (as ETs were assumed to be then) occasioned much hilarity -- and a lot of telling of tall tales based on what was presumed to be an outlandish absurdity -- in the press of the period. In fact, Charles Fort, who would know if anybody did about the probable reception of such reports, wrote on the very subject in a letter published in the New York Times (September 5, 1926): "If it is not the conventional or reasonable thing upon this earth to believe in visitors from other worlds, most of us could watch them a week and declare that they were something else, and likely enough make things disagreeable for anyone who thought otherwise." Prescient words, indeed. Even on this list one finds plenty of evidence that our fellow human beings seek to "make things disagreeable" for anyone who presumes to find evidence for -- or, even more heretically, have personal experience of -- alien visitors. Where are you, Mr. Fort, now that we need you more than ever? For an example of what may have been an early UFO abduction, and the hostile (and ultimately tragic) response accorded same, see Elsie Shirley's "Out of the Sky? A Curious Story of 1911," IUR, Winter 1997-98, pp. 13,27. Jerry Clark
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 15 Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@connectmmic.net> Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 14:40:29 -0500 Fwd Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 18:28:13 -0500 Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >>Date: Sat, 06 Feb 1999 17:44:44 -0500 >>To: "UFO UpDates Subscribers":; >>From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >>Subject: UFO UpDate: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >>From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@connectmmic.net> >>Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >>Date: Sat, 06 Feb 1999 13:16:29 -0500 Finally, I'll get this thing straight. The relevance of witness confabulation related to high stress and high strangeness experience is the following: 1. Abduction victims show symptoms typical to Post Traumatic Stress Syndrome: ----------------- http://www.psych.org/psych/htdocs/public_info/ptsd.html It's been called shell shock, battle fatigue, accident neurosis and post rape syndrome. It has often been misunderstood or misdiagnosed, even though the disorder has very specific symptoms that form a definite psychological syndrome. ----------------- 2. Their reaction proves that a real event took place: ----------------- http://www.psych.org/psych/htdocs/public_info/ptsd.html The disorder is post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) and it affects hundreds of thousands of people who have been exposed to violent events such as rape, domestic violence, child abuse, war, accidents, natural disasters and political torture. From: http://www.bonni.net/trinity/discord/ptsd.html In practical terms, symptoms can include any combination of the following: Recurring nightmares about the event, including possibly intrusive memory flashbacks. Difficulty sleeping or changes in appetite. Feelings of anxiety and fear, especially when exposed to events or situations reminiscent of the trauma. Jumpiness, edginess, exaggerated startle reflex, or becoming overly alert. Depression, sadness, and lack of energy. Spontaneous crying. Sense of despair and hopelessness. Memory problems, including difficulty in remembering aspects of the trauma. Feeling "scattered" or "off center", and unable to focus on work or daily activities. Difficulty making decisions or carrying out plans. Irritability, agitation, or feelings of anger and resentment. Feeling emotionally "numb," withdrawn, disconnected, or different from others. Oveprotectiveness of loved ones, or fear for the safety of loved ones. Not being able to face certain aspects of the trauma, and avoiding activities, places, or even people that remind you of the event. ----------------- 3. Psychology 101: Stress is a response of a living organism to a stimuli. ----------------- From: http://www.bonni.net/trinity/discord/ptsd.html It's also a misnomer that Post Traumatic Stress Disorder is something that only soldiers get. It is true that combat veterans are known to develop PTSD, but victims and survivors of any and all kinds of trauma can and do develop PTSD, including those who have experienced natural disasters, assault, plane crashes, car accidents, and many other sorts of traumatic events. Child abuse survivors are almost certain to live with symptoms of this disorder, as do survivors of domestic violence and political upheavals such as civil war or revolutions. PTSD is associated with trauma where the victim felt helpless, overwhelmingly afraid, and experienced the threat of death or injury to themselves or others, as already mentioned. It is in no way limited to soldiers and combat veterans. ----------------- 4. Abduction victim's testimony problems are _compounded_ by the nature of the experience itself: high stress AND threatened personal security AND high strangeness. The experiencer's credibility is thus questioned by people who don't know that there is a difference between psychology, psychiatry, psychoanalysis and Alfred Hitchcock. 5. It is a necessity for the abduction victim to _contaminate_ herself: read about your experience, talk with other experiencers. This should be encouraged as it will help to reassert reality, at the expense of the reliability of the account. 5a. Who cares? First comes sanity, then life, then credibility. Corollary: 1. Abductologists should be second when dealing with abduction victims. There is a need for professional resources. 2. If you don't find this funny, you're probably dead. Serge Salvaille
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 15 UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 4, Number 7 From: John Hayes <john@bofrok.freeserve.co.uk> Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 19:49:08 +0000 Fwd Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 19:10:27 -0500 Subject: UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 4, Number 7 UFO ROUNDUP Volume 4, Number 7 February 15, 1999 Editor: Joseph Trainor UFO ROUNDUP Volume 4 Number 7 Febuary 15, 1999 Editor: Joseph Trainor Masinaigan@aol.com LARGE DAYLIGHT UFO SEEN OVER DOWNTOWN TORONTO On Wednesday, February 3, 1999, at 10:15 a.m., aircraft engineer Garfield Bowser was at the corner of St. George and Bloor Streets in Toronto, the largest city in Canada, when he spied a very large UFO crossing the sky. Bowser reported that he "saw a wingless, noiseless, three-hundred-foot-long, fifty-foot-high object with a 'nubin' on top. It was over St. Clair Avenue West a little beyond Casa Loma." He "estimated that the object was traveling at about 400 miles per hour. No tail fin. Elevation 15 degrees from horizontal. Altitude 10,000 feet, descending to 8 degrees from horizontal two-and-a-falk miles to the north. It was very silvery, with pointy-rounded ends and a black horizontal band around it, against a very clear blue sky." "Having been in the aircraft industry for five years and having an eye and ear for engines, this object is unlike any craft I have observed heretofore," Bowser stated. The case is being investigated by ufologist Larry Fenwick of the Canadian UFO Research Network. A call to Toronto's Pearson International Airport revealed that there were "no aircraft in that airspace at the time." (Many thanks to Errol Bruce-Knapp for this news story.) ANOTHER UFO VIDEOTAPED IN NORTHERN IRELAND On Wednesday, January 20, 1999, at 4:50 p.m., Kenneth Mundell stepped out of his home in Inver, a suburb of Larne, Country Antrim, Northern Ireland, and spotted something strange in the eastern sky. Quickly he grabbed his camcorder. "I noticed the triangular UFO coming from the east just about 1,000 feet high in the sky," Mundell reported. "It was travelling slowly, perhaps 30 to 40 miles per hour. There was no sound coming from the craft." As the UFO approached his house, Mundell began recording its image on 8 millimeter XTR (Extra Resolution) videotape. "When the UFO was directly over my house, it changed direction, shifting to a more northerly one," he reported, adding that the UFO seemed to "'skid' across the sky, an impossible task for any known aircraft." Larne is a city in County Antrim located about 42 miles (70 kilometers) north of Belfast. (Many thanks to Kenneth Mundell for this report.) TRIANGULAR UFOs FLY OVER BLOEMFONTEIN, SOUTH AFRICA On Friday, February 5, 1999, eight people in Bloemfontein, a large city in the Oranje Vrystaat region of South Africa, watched as several metallic UFO's flew overhead for eight minutes. Witnesses described the UFOs as "triangular-shaped, greyish-coloured objects with brightly-coloured lights at the corners." One witness reportedly captured "a couple of minutes" of the overflight "on videotape." "A couple of small UFOs were seen both motionless and zigzagging back and forth." A local newspaper reported on Sunday, February 7, 1999, that a UFO had flown over the town of Graaff- Reinette back in December 1998. The same newspaper also reported that "a farmer who came upon a UFO that had landed on a gravel road near his farm" in a rural district near Bloemfontein. "The engine of his truck just cut out, and he was 'frozen' in the act of getting out of the truck. A farm worker who was standing against the fence also could not move. After the UFO left, everything returned to normal. The farmer drove to the nearest police station, and the police investigated the site." Bloemfontein is located 500 kilometers (300 miles) southwest of Johannesburg. (Many thanks to Leenta Scott for sending this news story.) UFOs SIGHTED IN THREE STATES OF AUSTRALIA The level of UFO activity in Australia has remained high for the past few weeks. On Wednesday, January 13, 1999, astronomer Matthew Pearce, 23, spotted a UFO with his telescope while skywatching in his hometown of Yulara, Northern Territory, about 400 kilometers (240 miles) southwest of Alice Springs. Pearce reported, "I observed an object due south, around 10 kilometers (6 miles) from Yulara. The object resembled a star, silvery-blue in colour. I heard no noise. Height around 15 degrees, southeast of Yulara, near Uluru. Visibility clear. It looked like a planet where there shouldn't be one. I watched it for around two minutes, then the object blinked out." (Editor's Note: Uluru, also known as Ayer's Rock, is a site in central Australia held sacred by the indigenous aboriginal people. It's similar to Bear Butte near Sturgis, South Dakota, USA, which is revered by the Lakota (Sioux), Zizitzah (Cheyenne) and Absaroka (Crow) people.) On Saturday, January 23, 1999, two boys, ages 8 and 7, were looking out their bedroom window at 9:15 p.m. when they spotted a brightly-lit UFO hovering in the sky. The incident occurred at Burpengary, Queensland, 10 kilometers (6 miles) from Deception Bay. The boys' mother told ufologist Diane Harrison that "the boys told me last night they saw a UFO. I said, "Yes, right. Kids, stop making up stories.' They said, 'Mum, we really did see a UFO. I'll draw it.' The boys said they watched it from their bedroom window for some time. They said it looked like a Christmas tree just floating in the sky," with red, green, blue, white and orange lights. On Thursday, February 11, 1999, residents of New Norcia, Western Australia, in the "wheatbelt region" 132 kilometers (79 miles) from Perth, W.A., spotted a disc-shaped UFO hovering overhead. According to the Australian Broadcasting Corp., "The National UFO Reporting Centre, in Melbourne, says they have received a number of reports of a flying-saucer-shaped craft hovering in the sky for a few seconds near New Norcia...(Australian ufologist) Ross Dowe says it is the first time there has been such a sighting over the district. 'This particular object had some five or six illuminations' and 'was seen for approximately five to ten seconds and then shot up into the sky,'" Australian Broadcasting Corp. quoted Ross Dowe as saying. (Many thanks to Keith Douglass and Diane Harrison for these reports.) DANISH MOTORISTS TRAILED BY TWO MYSTERIOUS LIGHTS On Friday, January 1, 1999, at 3:45 a.m., Henrik H. and a companion left Hjarup in the Soenderjylland region of southern Denmark, planning to drive to Skodborg. As they passed through Varndrup, they noticed something strange in the sky. "The sky was between clear and a little misty," Henrik reported. "The UFOs approached from the south. Their shape was round. Their lights were milky, not very intense but intense enough to cast a reflective glow on the zinc roof of a barn. They circled our car but not in the same level or pattern of flight." "No sound was heard. They went sort of in a straight line. They did not fly together but each bt itself," he reported, adding that they kept the objects in view until they reached Skodborg at 5 a.m. Henrik said SUFOI, the Scandinavian ufology group, "told us it was some spotlight, located at a discotechque near Roedding. But how is it possible for a spotlight to follow a car for over 25 kilometers?" (Email Interview) DAZZLING UFO HOVERS OVER TELFORD, PENNSYLVANIA On Friday, February 5, 1999, at 6:30 p.m., a dazzling UFO appeared in the sky over Telford, Pennsylvania (population 4,238), a small town on Highway 9 about 30 miles (50 kilometers) north- northwest of Philadelphia. Eyewitness Mark Isganitis reported, "My family and I observed a very unusual light in the evening sky in Telford. It was about 30 degrees above the southeastern horizon. We observed it through binoculars and with a small telescope." "It was a very bright sparkling object which repeatedly blinked in all colors," Mark reported. "It was smaller in size than either Jupiter or Venus, but unusually brighter than either, which were both observable in the southwest last evening." "My telescope is powerful enough to show the disc of Jupiter with its cloud banks and moons clearly visible. But when trained on this object, all that we could see was a bright sparkling point of light shooting off colored sparks or spikes." (Many thanks to Errol Bruce-Knapp for forwarding this report.) (Editor's Comment: Telford, Pa. was the site of a week-long black helicopter flap in April 1998.) UFOs SEEN FLYING NEAR WEST ELKTON, OHIO On Monday, January 25, 1999, at 8:22 p.m., a 26-year-old man was driving to Middletown, Ohio. As he stopped at the Madison Food Market on Route 122, he spotted "four odd lights in the sky." He put through a phone call to his mother, "Mrs. Smith," in West Elkton, Ohio (population 117), a small town on Route 503 about 48 miles (71 kilometers) north of Cincinnati, and asked her if the lights were visible from there. "After taking the phone call, Mrs. Smith was curious to have a look," so she "drove a short distance to the vicinity of Wayne Trace and West Elkton Road before returning home, not having seen anything." But when she arrived home, Mrs. Smith saw "the light appear to the south of her location, and it became brighter." She described it as "a star-like light that approached over our barn." "The object hovered for about ten minutes, and blinking red and green lights could be seen. She added that 'two other lights could be seen with the bright lights.' The two smaller UFOs "would 'dive' back and forth, as well as disappear and reappear... During the event, a fast, low-pitched humming or droning could be heard." Mrs. Smith observed the UFO from the walkway behind her kitchen porch. "The (main) object hovered at a low elevation above her five-acre field. The main object, she said, was closer, and the two smaller objects more distant." (Many thanks to Kenneth Young for Cincinnati UFO Research for this report.) DUTCH MOTORIST SAYS UFO DISABLED HIS OPEL CAR One night in August 1998, at 1 a.m., Joost van F. decided to let his dog go for a moonlight run in T. Wiske nature park, near Zaandam, a suburb 10 kilometers (6 miles) north of Amsterdam, capital of the Netherlands. "I was driving an Opel Kadett with a 1600 centimeter engine, a sports model," Joost reported. "The park is closed to traffic, but residents of the neighborhood sometimes drive in there to let their dogs have some exercise." "After letting out my dog, and as the (Opel's) motor was running, it stopped--all at once--just shut down. In reflex, I braked. I had been rolling along at about 5 kilometers per hour, and my car came to a full stop." "Did I run through a puddle? No, the way was 'dry' for at least ten meters back. I stepped out of the car, flashlight in my hand. I opened the motor compartment (hood in the USA, bonnet in the UK-- J.T.)." "As I was checking the engine block and the electric wires, suddenly I felt a presence behind me. Strangely my dog did not bark or show any signs of upset. Turning, I saw two bright lights shooting up into the sky, almost vertical and at a speed much higher than an aircraft or a helicopter might use. No noise, no venting gases (exhaust--J.T.), nothing. They were about eye-height above the trees and out of sight within two seconds. They were over Zaandam and Purmerend, about one kilometer away." When he tried the Opel's engine again a few minutes later, it started right up and ran without missing a beat. (Email Interview) SOUTH TEXAS ROCKED BY OPERATION LAST DANCE On Monday night, February 8, 1999, over a dozen black helicopters flew into the center of Kingsville, Texas (population 25,276), a small city on Highway 77 about 50 miles (80 kilometers) southwest of Corpus Christi. The choppers disgorged soldiers in full combat gear, who rappelled to the ground on nylon ropes. The "urban terrain" infiltration exercise was carried out by the U.S. Army Special Operations Command and had the code name Operation Last Dance. According to WorldNet Daily, two buildings in Kingsville were damaged during the maneuvers. The first, an abandoned police station, was destroyed by fire. A commercial building had its roof damaged after two or more black helicopters attempted to land on it. "The assistant police chief confirmed what no one else would." "'The United States Army Special Operations Command was conducting a training exercise in our area,' admitted Arthur Rogers, when the police chief was unavailable for comment." "That was more than Mayor Phil Esquivel would declare. He said he was sworn to secrecy for national security reasons." "Witnesses reported that black helicopters with no identification markings flew into the city just after dark. They arrived in the center of the city, which had been evacuated by police. The secret training maneuver lasted several hours." "'I live out in the country, and they flew right over us, and our house just trembled,' said Thelma, a resident who would only give her first name." "They asked us to keep it secret,' repeated Esquivel several times. 'I respect national security. It was very well controlled, and no one was hurt. It didn't expend city taxpayers' dollars. The police department warned all surrounding neighbors. We're supporting national security." The cause of the fire at the abandoned police station is still undetermined. Elsewhere in Texas, black helicopters and other mystery vehicles were on the move. On Sunday, February 8, 1999, residents of Grand Prairie, Texas (population 99,616) a city on Highway 180 about 36 miles (57 kilometers) west of Dallas, spotted 15 black helicopters flying in formation over the city. Betty D. reported that "the 15 helicopters formed a straight line across the sky. They were all H-60 Blackhawks, it looked like to me. There was one that had a lot of electronic antennae sticking out the front. They flew slow and in formation--left to right, then north to south." The same afternoon, Sunday, February 8, a female Texas Ranger (the Rangers are a unit of the Texas Department of Public Safety--J.T.) pulled over a flatbed semi truck on Highway 72 in Clayton, Texas (population 450), a small town located about 57 miles (91 kilometers) southwest of Shreveport, Louisiana. The Ranger asked to see the manifest, and the trucker said, "Sure thing, ma'am." The Ranger read the manifest and said she thought the truck was over the highway's weight limit. When she pulled back the tarp on the flatbed, she got the shock of her life. Stacked on the truck were dozens of signs emblazoned with the message This area is now under Martial Law. (See WorldNet Daily for February 10, 1999, "What happened in Kingsville, Texas Monday night. Residents report unmarked helicopters, soldiers dropping from ropes,' by David M. Bresnahan.) (Editor's Comment: Does Texas governor George W. Bush even know what's going on in his own state?) UN TROOPS ON MANEUVERS IN THREE STATES OF USA On Wednesday, February 10, 1999, Fort Polk, Lousiana was closed to the general public. The post will remain closed until February 17 as the troops there conduct "peace enforcement training." Since 1992, Fort Polk, located just east of Leesville, about 250 miles (400 kilometers) northwest of New Orleans, has been the United Nations Joint Training Centre for North America. "The peace enforcement training is being conducted by the Joint Readiness Training Center. The scenario will involve troops acting as hostile forces which will not give up fighting in the fictitious nation" of Cortina. In the training scenario, a civil war has broken Cortina into two new republics Cortina and Acadia, and now "a multi-national force has been called in to establish peace." Serving as one "hostile force" will be First Battalion, 509th Airborne Infantry Regiment, while its opponent will be 2nd Armored Cavalry Regiment. "The primary forces being trained are the 3rd Brigade, 25th Infantry Division from Hawaii. They will receive support from Company C, 1st Battalion, 8th Infantry (Regiment) from Fort Carson, Colorado, 3rd Battalion, 1st Special Forces Group from Fort Lewis, Washington (state), the 159th Corps Support Group, a reserve unit from Helena, Montana, along with (U.S.) Air Force units from North Carolina, Texas, Washington, Massachusetts and California." The 5,000 U.S. troops will participate in the exercise with troops from a number of foreign nations, which have not been identified. "Much of Fort Polk has been closed to the public during the exercise, primarily for safety concerns because live ammunition will be in use." "'I live about 15 miles away from Fort Polk,' Cynthia Lyles told WorldNet Daily. 'This sounds like martial law training to me, in the name of peace, using reserve units and Special Forces.'" "Military spokesmen insisted the training is not intended to prepare troops for domestic events." Also last week, residents of Pennsylvania and Florida reported seeing white United Nations sports utility vehicles on the move in their states. On Monday, February 8, 1999, troopers of the Pennsylvania State Police pulled over a white UN Chevrolet Suburban with no license plates. In the vehicle were three Caucasian males in camoflauge battledress utilities (BDUs) of a style the U.S. Army calls woodland camo. The men had no identification on their persons and could not speak a word of English. The incident took place on Highway 8 just outside Oil City, Pennsylvania (population 11,949), located about 130 miles (208 kilometers) north of Pittsburgh. Nearly a month earlier, on January 11, 1999, Charles D. reported seeing six white UN Chevy Suburbans "going like hell" on Highway 62 near Warren, Pennsylvania (population 11,122), a small city 70 miles (112 kilometers) southeast of Erie, Pa. He reported that the vehicles were escorted by three black helicopters--AH-1 Cobras-- flying back and forth over the convoy as it rolled along. On Saturday, February 6, 1999, witness James P. spotted "five (UH-60) Blackhawks hovering over Sebring, Florida (population 8,900) as he was driving on Highway 17. The following morning, Sunday, February 7, 1999, James spotted "two black Cobras" flying parallel to the highway. A few minutes later, along came two "desert camo" flatbed trucks, heading north, carrying huge bales of concertina barbed wire. (See WorldNet Daily for February 11, 1999, "Another military operation in Louisiana," by David M. Bresnahan. See also the Oil City, Pa. Derrick for February 9, 1999.) from the UFO Files... 1954: UFO LANDS NEAR THE LANCASHIRE LAKES A UFO landed in the Lake District of Lancashire on February 15, 1954. Here's a summary of that unusual encounter. "Two boys, Stephen Darbishire, and his cousin, Adrian Myer, saw a circular domed object hovering above Coniston Old Main in the Lake District of Lancashire," UK. "The object was described as being metallic and manufactured in appearance, and possessing an upper turret with what were alleged to be 'portholes.' Two snapshots were taken with a simple camera, one of the hovering object, another of the device as it sped away past the witnesses." "The somewhat diffuse images on the film seem to confirm that something was present which was strikingly similar to the object in the first Adamski photographs. (Note: The domed UFO that George Adamski photographed in California in November 1952) In fact, one researcher (ufologist Leonard G. Cramp) has demonstrated by means of orthographic projections that the Darbishire and Adamski photographs could be of identical objects." (See the book THE HUMANOIDS, edited by Charles Bowen, Henry Regnery Co., Chicago, Ill., 1969. page 14. See also the Lancashire Daily Post for February 19, 1954.) FUN UFO WEBSITES Don't miss our parent site, UFOINFO, with its wide array of photo features. Log on any time at http://ufoinfo.com Back issues of UFO Roundup can be accessed and dowloaded at our webpage. We're at http://ufoinfo.com/roundup What a week! It looks as if the UFOs are back with a vengeance, popping up all over the world. But we'll be right there to cover their appearances. As always, bringing you the latest UFO news will be "the paper that goes home--UFO Roundup." See you next week! UFO ROUNDUP: Copyright 1999 by Masinaigan Productions, all rights reserved. Readers may post news items from UFO Roundup on their websites or in newsgroups provided that they credit the newsletter and its editor by name and list the date of issue in which the item first appeared. http://ufoinfo.com/roundup/v04/rnd04_07.html
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 16 Himself & The Rest From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 08:08:12 -0500 Fwd Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 08:08:12 -0500 Subject: Himself & The Rest Source: Project-1947 List Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 23:28:57 -0700 : : From: Wendy Connors <ProjectSign@EMAIL.MSN.COM> Subject: Re: A Horse is a Horse of CAUS of CAUS To: PROJECT-1947@LISTSERV.AOL.COM You may be interested in the "State of Ufology" found on the Project SIGN Research Center Website. A wonderful look into the inner workings of the unbridled passions of current "great" ufologists within the field by the most wonderfully talented and artistic endeavors of Ms. Faeylyn Wylder. Bring your popcorn and join in the singing...a place we should all visit when things look like a retrospective of the the Titanic. Wendy Connors The Current State of Ufology as Dramatic Cantata in Satire by Ernestine Gilbert-Sullivan Featuring Your Favorite Late Night Talk Show Host and His Guests http://members.aol.com/ufolabnm/jason/savoy2.htm
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 16 The Sheffield Incident - A Breather From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 08:26:12 -0500 Fwd Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 08:26:12 -0500 Subject: The Sheffield Incident - A Breather UpDates Subscribers need a break from the 'Sheffield' discussions - if and when there appears to be a resolution we'll pick up the thread again. Until that time the following is the last of the discussion here. Below, in one post are the remaining messages on the Sheffield thread as of this morning ebk ----- Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 11:15:18 -0500 From: Andy Roberts <Brigantia@compuserve.com> Subject: UFO UpDate: Re: The Sheffield Incident To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> Max Burns once again presses his nose through the playground bars and jeers about the alleged 'Sheffield Incident'........... Yet again Max has made serious allegations about the events (or non-events) in this case and about other researchers. Yet again he has failed to substantiate them. But his smokescreen is effective in that if the available facts about this case are not marshalled and correctly portrayed then the 'Sheffield Incident' is going to be touted by the easily led, weak of mind and hard of thinking as being a genuine mystery, one of the few alleged crash retrievals in the UK and one of the few cases in the world where air crew have died after being involved in a UFO incident. Serious researchers should be paying close attention to the dialogue between Max and his gainsayers because this one case reveals much about the process and difficulties of investigation and verification of a UFO event. Elsewhere in his posts Max has asked, rather naively, if there has now been a 'line drawn in the sand'. Of course there is Max - a line between provable, documented facts and the uninformed, unprovable speculation which forms the ammunition of superstition, leading to the beliefs Max currently holds. Armed superstition aptly sums up Max's position on this case. Max bandies alleged elements of this case around as though he were talking about the weather. UpDates readers should be reminded again that he is claiming (without any foundation in fact) these very serious allegations: * That a 'plane was shot down or crashed after involvement with a UFO. * That two crew were killed. * That this entire incident has been covered up * That serious UK ufologists have lied about information they hold and, more ludicrously, that they are being paid or coerced by the government to do this. And Max says he doesn't watch the X Files. Puhleese Max. Irrespective of all Max's witterings the 'Sheffield Incident' has been investigated by some very competent researchers who have only presented facts which are verifiable either by documentation or witness statement. And. I have to add, witness statement taken from interviews in which the witnesses were not led. Those people, David Clarke and Martin Jeffries have not had to sink to bombastic speculation or allegations about deaths, cover ups or disinformation agents. This way of approaching a case may not be 'sexy', it may not fuel fantasies but listers should pause for a moment to consider just *why* Max Burns feels it necessary to promote himself at the expense of the alleged death of other human beings, with *no* evidence whatsoever. *This* is the reality of ufology today. It's hard, intensive claim and counter claim and the line to which Max refers is between truth and fantasy. It would be nice if researchers could work together, whatever their beliefs, in the solving of a case, but this rarely happens. In the 'Sheffield Incident' Dave Clarke and Martin Jeffries have offered to follow up any of the more delusional claims Max has made if he provides them with the information. This would not be unreasonable in light of the serious allegations he has made, and if his information and claims *were* true then this would provide independent verification. Surely what we must all be aiming at as researchers who wish to be taken seriously? To date Max has not done this. I would suggest this is for two reasons. Firstly because independent investigation has proved his claims, to date, are untenable. And secondly because Max is desperate to make a name/money out of something which never happened. The situation has been further compounded by the actions of the British UFO Research Association (BUFORA). Once a touchstone for genuine research in the UK BUFORA has been hoodwinked by Max's unproved delusions and is giving him a public platform for them. Add to this the fact that Max is currently on the run from the police in Rotherham and you have a major UFO research organisation supporting criminals! A criminal that openly lies about the deaths of other human beings. How sad matters have become in the 'search' for fame and fortune. Should we play all this down, mutter 'free speech' under our breath and let the lunatics take over the asylum? It's easily done. But if those of us who have been involved in the Sheffield Incident do so we are being compliant in the creation of yet another strand in the ETH mythos and of aiding and abbetting a researcher in pulling the wool over the eyes of the public and his colleagues in the subject. So I recommend that, boring as it may be, y'all keep a track of both Max Burns and of the Sheffield Incident. It's bound to be fun. And for those of you in the north of England I suggest going along to Dave Clarke's lecture in Southport on 27th Feb. and seeing what the *facts* of the matter really are. Happy Trails Andy That would be nice but as the two of you are now re-writing the incident together, so its hardly independent is it? UpDates readers, we all know that it is an elementary rule of logic that you cannot prove a negative. So David, you are saying about evidence to prove something did not occur is out of line with what we know about logic. >As for the "over-ambitious investigator" to whom Martin refers: >Max Burn's most recent, voluminous, posts on UpDates are >indicative of his confusing fantasy with reality to the point >where he is actually playing a part in his own episode of the >X-Files - and this one has more holes in the plot than average. Actually David I do not watch the X-Files, and indeed do not have a TV. I believe that you do have not the ability or the qualifications to be making psychological analysis of myself and therefore it is just speculation on your part. In the hope of making myself out to be some sci-fi nut feeding on my own self delusion? >The more he posts to the Internet, the more it become obvious >how little he knows about the geography of the area he is >discussing, the rules of evidence and even basic investigation >techniques. I know plenty about the area and with the amount of time I have spent in around the surrounding area I do know that the Peak District is not one of the, as you put it: "Most densely populated area in Europe" >I will dealing with his claims and allegations concerning my >"intimidation" of witnesses and other investigators in a >separate post. Why do you need time to get your cover story worked out? >My experience and qualifications - including a PhD from the >University of Sheffield, ten years working as an investigative >journalist, and a series of awards for my work - speak for >themselves. Actually they do not speak for themselves. Indeed when one of my friends covertly E-mailed you about the Sheffield incident, they asked you what you knew about Dragons in light of you pontificating about your credentials. you wrote 20 pages about myself and the Sheffield case. With regard to Dragons - bearing in mind, readers of UpDates, that Dr David Clark's Doctorate is in Mythology & Folklore - you said of the enquiry regarding Dragons to Kaosquasar@Aol.com... quote: "I dont have a lot of knowledge about those" Well David Clark, let me help you out here. Dragons have been reported in various cultures from the Chinese and Russian. Indeed almost all historical records dating back 2000yrs have of stories of dragons, including the stories from British history and folklore Hope I helped you out there, so perhaps your comments do not speak for themselves. >I am keeping Mr Dagenhart, in particular, informed about what >Max is claiming and this may lead to separate action elsewhere. >Some of those people whom Max is invoking are now starting to >post their separate evidence to this List, and he will soon >find himself having to eat his own words. I am sorry David I will not be eating my words. If you are inferring a court action with regard to Mr Dagenhart, then I welcome it and will have a full media turnout to hear the reasons why I will not back down regarding what has been investigated by me and was originally discussed with Mr Dagenhart. Your professional conduct will no doubt come into question during a potential court case, and your motivations for acting in the manner in which you have. As you must remember I have the Jonathan Dagenhart interview on tape. You have chosen not to reply to any of the serious allegations I am making regarding your claims: 1... What I discussed with Dagenhart. 2....Things you claim that I never asked. The transcript of the interview clearly shows your assesment to be incorrect. Yes, let Mr Dagenhart take this to court and I will supply the proper national media for the case. >All I ask is that readers who are interested in this 'incident' >should acquaint themselves with both sets of evidence before >making their own minds up. What's up David? Concerned that you have been rumbled in light of my previous posts in PT1 & PT2? That the corner has been turned? That the readers of UpDates are now starting to see the real you and the fact that I am simply a man in search of the truth whatever that turns out to be? The truth is not to be meted out by yourself, especially since you have now been uncovered. I insist that you answer the points from my previous posts before you start trying to assist your buddies. Bear in mind that the claims from my previous posts are either backed up by text written in your own words or by audio-recorded conversations in connection with the Sheffield incident. You are in a corner my friend. Best if you let it drop. >My account appeared in the UK UFO >Magazine in July/August last year and full updated 40 page >report will be available from the Independent UFO Network >shortly. More procrastinating and pontificating in the hope of bolstering your work of fiction - never mind the fact that UFO magazine UK is under careful watch in light of recent articles and comments by Quest Publications, regarding the subject matter in general. Even Tim Matthews has some serious concerns about the acts and motivations of Quest Publications in light of certain elements of ufology. Please do not push for me to reveal what they are. These matters are in the hands of others and it is not for me to reveal the information at this time. >The twists and turns of this case have illustrated the dichotomy >that exists in the UK between serious ufology and the lunatic >fringe. I hope that the readers of UpDates will see for themselves in my posts that I am neither lunatic nor in need of psychological help. It is in fact another clear attempt by Mr Clark to paint a false picture of myself and others of different beliefs to Mr Clark and his friends. >Anyone like myself who ventures into the muddy waters and tries >to take a serious and scientific look at the problem is >demonised and pilloried by that lunatic fringe. I have not demonised you, in fact you are the only one making slurs against others whose opinions differ from yourself. Readers of UpDates you know the old story: "If you cannot get the case destroyed, destroy the man" >Their only method of responding to reasonable questions about >their extreme claims is to throw the words "debunker", "skeptic" >and "cover-up" like confetti. This is a perfect example of reverse psychology. >It's a highly convenient way of avoiding having to produce a >logical argument that adheres to the scientific method like the >rest of us have to follow. The word of Max is all very >amusing for those of us watching from the outside - but what >worries me is the damage that it is doing to the reputation of >ufology as a whole. That's it David, try to gather your flock. You say "logical argument". I have caught you out on a number of points in my previous posts to UpDates, to which, as of yet, you have not responded. You cannot get more logical than that. >How can any serious UFO investigator and researcher expect >scientists and Governments to take a serious look at the UFO >evidence when the subject is entertaining unscientific claims of >the kind he is promoting? How can any serious UFO investigator and researcher expect scientists and governments to take a serious look at the UFO evidence when the subject is full of disinformation, the like of which I have exposed you as being involved with in my previous post One final point: >If Max wants to put an end to this saga once and for all, there >is a quite simple way of doing it. We can argue about it on >UpDates for years, but if he is so confident he has evidence >which can "prove" (his words) that NATO lost a jet over the Peak >District (with the loss of life) as a result of a UFO incident - >then he should take his evidence to the appropriate authorities >for an independent investigation. There you go again David . In my previous post of a few days ago I actually wrote: "And some news will be breaking that is really going to put the cat among the pigeons, regarding the Sheffield Incident. independent information via another researcher who is going on the record that he was in the company of for a few days while on holiday with a N.A.T.O. Tornado jet pilot. who has confirmed off the record that the incident over the peak district was all the Americans fault, and indeed the nights events culminated in the loss of a N.A.T.O. Tornado Jet, resulting in the death of a pilot..." You see what I am getting at, readers of UpDates? Mr Clark cannot even report something correctly that was posted on UpDates only a few days ago... >It is a criminal offence in the United Kingdom to hide a dead >body or the remains of a dead body from the HM Coroner - and >that is in effect what Max is claiming has happened in this >case. Who said the MOD have hidden this body? Let me bring you up to speed David. My brother served 15 years in the UK Military - including the Falklands conflict, in which he was on board the Canberra. If you know any thing about that conflict, the only people on board the ship were, Marines/Special Forces. He also three tours in Northern Ireland and two tours in Germany. My Uncle served 22 years in the RAF.. My family has a long record of military service. One time my brother was badly injured, a senior officer came to our home to inform my parents that he was alive. When my mother asked how he had been injured he said. "All I can say is that your son was injured on a mission in defence of the realm" And anyway what I am talking about is a N.A.T.O. pilot or co-pilot and would be dealt with by N.A.T.O. Even if it were a British N.A.T.O. Pilot or co-pilot in question, the statement would go something like, your son/daughter/husband/wife lost their life on a classified mission and died with honour in defence of the realm, etc. I know this to be right. >I challenge Max to present his "report" and conclusions to HM >Coroner for South Yorkshire. Christopher Dorries, at the >Medico-Legal Centre, Sheffield, by March 1 this year. There you go again - you and Martin laying down the rules and making demands. I say this to you David - when I have what I need to prove this case. 1. The name of the pilot or co-pilot who has died 2. The name of the air base where this plane took off from 3..The registration number of the crashed Tornado.. You will be the last to know, Whether or not this was the TR3B or an extra terrestrial Triangle, whether or not this is a case of hostile action or pilot error or simple plane malfunction while on an escort duty or interception. I am quite certain that we are dealing with a crashed Tornado, a dead pilot or co-pilot, and I continue with my search for the truth... And on a final note, I demand that you answer the allegations of your deception regarding this case from points raised in my previous posts in response to you - from the posts called Sheffield Pt1 & Pt2 >If Max fails to present his evidence by March 1 then it will be >obvious he has none, and readers can draw their own conclusions. >It's time to put up or shut up once again, Mr Burns. Have the readers of UpDates ever heard something so outrageous, demanding a time limit on my investigation? Tut, tut, tut, Mr Clark. Its time for Mr Clark to answer the points I raised in my previous posts Sheffield PT1 & PT2... If any reader wishes to have a copy of the Jonathan Dagenahart interview then email myself or for the updated full report email myself or you contact Roy Hale at: roy.hale@virgin.net Regarding the excellent news stand publication Down to Earth. The Sheffield case is being featured over three issues... My story regarding this case will also be appearing in the States in Unknown Mag, for details of this excellent Mag and how to obtain it contact Chris Flemming at UNKNWNMAG@aol.com I will also be presenting the case to the Bufora membership at the university of London Lectures Sat June 5th 1999 (opposite Madame Tussauds) Details from Malcoum Robinson at Judithjaafar@compuserve.com. So you will see people are listening to me in the UK and Stateside, despite the claims of Mr Clark and his few friends... Ufology unfolding before your very eyes, "Its nice to be important" "but its more important to be nice" <<<>>> From: AlienHype@aol.com Received: from AlienHype@aol.com by imo24.mx.aol.com (IMOv18.1) id HKJSa03472 for <updates@globalserve.net>; Mon, 15 Feb 1999 13:29:58 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <da045b95.36c867a6@aol.com> Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 13:29:58 EST To: updates@globalserve.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: The Sheffield Incident Content-type: text/plain; charset=3DUS-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0.i for Windows 95 sub 118 In a message dated 13/02/99 17:09:39 GMT Standard Time, updates@globalserve.net writes: > Subj: UFO UpDate: Re: The Sheffield Incident > Date: 13/02/99 17:09:39 GMT Standard Time > From: updates@globalserve.net (UFO UpDates - Toronto) > > Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 06:45:38 -0500 > From: David Clarke <dclarke14@compuserve.com> > Subject: The Sheffield Incident > To: UFO Updates <updates@globalserve.net> > > > >From: Martin Jeffrey <mbkc67@dial.pipex.com> > >To: <Updates@globalserve.net> > >Subject: Re: The Sheffield Incident > >Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 18:14:04 -0000 > > <snip> > > >This case was nothing more than a mix of coincidence and > >hysteria inadvertantly caused by the police and Sheffield media. > >The RAF, broke the sound barrier over Sheffield and the Howden > >Moors twice and this coincided with sightings of a low flying > >aircraft. > > <snip> > > Martin's independent evidence bears out what I have been saying > about this 'incident' for the best part of two years. That would be nice but as the two of you are now re writing the incident together its hardly independant is it? Updates readers, we all know that it is an elementary rule of logic that you cannot proove a negative, so what you are saying about evidence to proove something did not occur is out of line with what we know about logic. > As for the "over-ambitious investigator" to whom Martin refers: > Max Burn's most recent, voluminous, posts on UpDates are > indicative of his confusing fantasy with reality to the point > where he is actually playing a part in his own episode of the > X-Files - and this one has more holes in the plot than average. Actually David I do not watch the XFiles, and indeed do not have a TV. I believe that you have not the ability or the qualifercations to be making psychological analysis of myself and therefore is just speculation on your behalf, in the hope of making myself out to be some sci fi nut feeding into my own self delussion. How very poor of you. > The more he posts to the Internet, the more it become obvious > how little he knows about the geography of the area he is > discussing, the rules of evidence and even basic investigation > techniques. I know plenty about the area and with the amount of time I have spent in around the surrounding area I do know that the Peak district is not one of the as you put it i quote. "Most densely populated area in Europe" > I will dealing with his claims and allegations concerning my > "intimidation" of witnesses and other investigators in a > separate post. Why do youn need time to get your cover story worked out? > My experience and qualifications - including a PhD from the > University of Sheffield, ten years working as an investigative > journalist, and a series of awards for my work - speak for > themselves. Actually they dont speak for themselves, indeed when one of my friends covertly emailed you about the Sheffield incident, and as another motive they asked you what you knew about Dragons in light of you pontifercating and procrastinating about your credentials. you wrote 20 pages about myself and the Sheffield case, and with regard to Dragons, bearing in mind readers of updates, that Dr David Clark,s Doctorate is in Mythology & Folklore, you said on the enquiry regarding Dragons to Kaosquasar@Aol.com... quote "I dont have a lot of knowledge about those" Well David Phd Clark, let me help you out here, dragons have been reported in various cultures from the Chinese Russian in ideed almost all historical records of dating back 2000yrs have records of stories of dragons.. including the stories from Brittish history and folklore> Hope I helped you out there, so perhaps your comments do not speak for themselves. > > I am keeping Mr Dagenhart, in particular, informed about what > Max is claiming and this may lead to separate action elsewhere. > Some of those people whom Max is invoking are now starting to > post their separate evidence to this List, and he will soon > find himself having to eat his own words. I am sorry David I will not be eating my words, and if you are infering a court action with regard to Mr Dagenhart, then I welcome it, then I will have a full media turnout to hear the reasons why I will not back down regarding what has been investigated by myself and was originaly discussed with Mr Dagenhart. Your professional conduct will no doubt come in to question during the infered court case, and your motivations for acting in the manner in which= you have behaved with the obvious lies that you have told. as you must remember I have the Jonathan Dagenhart interview on tape. and as in my previous post which you have chosen not to reply to any of the serious allegations i am making regarding your, claims regarding. 1... What I discussed with Dagenhart. 2....Things you claim that I never asked, but the transcript of the= interview clearly shows your interview to be a pack of lies, regarding some of the claims you have made regarding my indepth on the record interview taken previous to your rantings and veiled threats of court action. Yes let Mr Dagenhart take this to court and I will supply the proper national Media for the case.. > All I ask is that readers who are interested in this 'incident' > should acquaint themselves with both sets of evidence before > making their own minds up. What,s up David concerned that you have been rumbled inlight of my previous posts PT1 & PT2,and that the corner has been turned that the readers of updates are now starting to see the real you and the fact that I am simply a man in search of the truth what ever that turns out to be, the truth although the truth is a three sided blade The truth is not to be meated out by yourself, especially since you have now been uncoverd, and I insist that you answer the the points about your dishonesty from my previous posts before you start trying to assist your buddies. bearing in mind that the claims from my previous posts are either backed up by text written in your own words or by audio convesations recorded in connection with the Sheffield incident. You are in a corner my friend best if you let it drop. My account appeared in the UK UFO > Magazine in July/August last year and full updated 40 page > report will be available from the Independent UFO Network > shortly. More procrastinating and pontitfercating in the hope of bolstering your work of fiction, never mind the fact that UFO magazine UK are under carefull watch in light of recent articles and comments by quest publications, regarding the subject matter in general. Even your big buddie Tim Mathews has some serious concerns about the acts and motivations of quest publications in light of certain elements of ufology. Please do not push me to reveal what they are, as these matters are in hand with others and it is not for me to repeat this information at this time, and anyway inlight of your behaviour you most certainly will not be privy to this information untill it becomes public. > The twists and turns of this case have illustrated the dichotomy > that exists in the UK between serious ufology and the lunatic > fringe. I hope that the readers of updates will see for themselves in my posting that I am neither lunatic nor in need of psyhologocal help, and is in fact= another clear attemp by Mr Clark to paint a false picture of myself and others of different belief systems to mr Clark and his friends. > Anyone like myself who ventures into the muddy waters and tries > to take a serious and scientific look at the problem is > demonised and pilloried by that lunatic fringe. I have not demonised you, infact you are the only one making slurs against others who opinion diffrers from yourself. Readers of updates you know the old story. " If you cannot get the case destroyed destroy the man" > Their only method of responding to reasonable questions about > their extreme claims is to throw the words "debunker", "skeptic" > and "cover-up" like confetti. This is a perfect example of reverse psychology. > > It's a highly convenient way of avoiding having to produce a > logical argument that adheres to the scientific method like the > rest of us have to follow. The word of Max is all very > amusing for those of us watching from the outside - but what > worries me is the damage that it is doing to the reputation of > ufology as a whole. Thats it David try to gather your flock, you say a logical argument I have caught you out lying on a number of points in my previous posts to updates, to which as of yet you have not responded.. you cannot get more logical than that. > How can any serious UFO investigator and researcher expect > scientists and Governments to take a serious look at the UFO > evidence when the subject is entertaining unscientific claims of > the kind he is promoting? How can any serious UFO investigator and researcher expect scientists and Governments to take a serious look at the UFO evidence when the subject is full of disinformation and lies the like of which I have exposed you as being involved with in my previous post One final point: > > If Max wants to put an end to this saga once and for all, there > is a quite simple way of doing it. We can argue about it on > UpDates for years, but if he is so confident he has evidence > which can "prove" (his words) that NATO lost a jet over the Peak > District (with the loss of life) as a result of a UFO incident - > then he should take his evidence to the appropriate authorities > for an independent investigation. > > It is a criminal offence in the United Kingdom to hide a dead > body or the remains of a dead body from the HM Coroner - and > that is in effect what Max is claiming has happened in this > case. > > I challenge Max to present his "report" and conclusions to HM > Coroner for South Yorkshire. Christopher Dorries, at the > Medico-Legal Centre, Sheffield, by March 1 this year. > > If Mr Dorries finds there is any evidence to support such a > claim I will accept my conclusions are wrong. > > If Max fails to present his evidence by March 1 then it will be > obvious he has none, and readers can draw their own conclusions. > > It's time to put up or shut up once again, Mr Burns. <<<>>> To: "UFO UpDates - Toronto" <updates@globalserve.net> From: "Jerome Clark" <jkclark@frontiernet.net> Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Conference & Sheffield Truth Date: Mon, 15 Feb 99 13:50:32 PST > From: Tim Matthews <matthews@zetnet.co.uk> > To: <updates@globalserve.net> > Subject: The Truth About The Sheffield Incident At Last! > Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 21:41:54 -0000 > James Diss, skeptic, will be talking about fake UFO photographs > and footage. Tim, You gotta be making this up! Or is this the guy's pseudonym? Would that all debunkers were so up front about their approach. Jerry Clark <<<>>> From: "roy hale" <roy.hale@virgin.net> To: <updates@globalserve.net> Subject: Sheffield Incident Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 23:06:43 -0000 Hi Max, Having had the chance to read and publish your full account and investigation into the Sheffield Incident, I and others cannot help but think that something has indeed been covered up. Its also been amazing to see a group of UFO researchers actually ganging up on yourself , for the sole purpose of dis-proving this case. I think what has been missed by these researchers some who are well known sceptics , is the fact that you have said on many occasions that you are not saying that this crash was caused by an Extraterrestrial Craft, it could have been a Military B.P. which would have been under the most secret operations. Many people have asked me the question why a gang of UFO researchers have made it their job to do what the Government do best. And come on people UFOlogy is not about what awards people win for what ever research they carry out, all that does is it make sure they get on all of the circuit lectures which can be quite rewarding. And to hear the latest from one of Max's so called colleagues actually changing his tune and publicly slagging him off, begs understanding in fact it opens new areas to this case rather than just closing it. I understand that rather investigate the facts some of these researchers have actually done some digging on Max himself and have put this into the public arena, for what reason: Simple: Dis-Credit the researcher and you Dis-Credit the research, this has left many people to question their stance on this case. If Martin Jeffrey's is saying that this case should now close, maybe he ought to point the same line in the direction of D.Clark as I understand he has quite a few bookings to talk about this case. It's a cold night........... Roy. <<<>>> Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 14:20:28 -0500 From: David Clarke <dclarke14@compuserve.com> Subject: Sheffield/Howden Moors incident Sender: David Clarke <dclarke14@compuserve.com> To: UFO Updates <updates@globalserve.net> Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 06:46:41 -0500 From: David Clarke <dclarke14@compuserve.com> Subject: Sheffield/Howden Moor incident To: UFO Updates <updates@globalserve.net> >>Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 04:12:16 EST >>From: Max Burns <AlienHype@aol.com> >>To: Updates@globalserve.net >>Subject: Re: Sheffield Incident [Pt. 1] Max Burns has made a number of false and misleading statements and allegations concerning my involvement in the Howden Moors incident. I hope subscribers will hear my right of reply to these. >Incidentally the Peak District is not one of the most densely >populated area's in western Europe. Its green belt and very few >people live in this area Actually Max the Peak District is the most visited National Park in Britain, and is the second most visited national park in the world after Mount Fuji in Japan. The Peak - a small area of land sandwiched between two of the highest populated cities in the north of England - received more than 5 million visitors last year, and anyone who lives in the area or who regularly walks and climbs the moors would not describe the region as remote. I live just a couple of miles from the border with it and every weekend the moors you are talking about are literally swarming with thousands of people. None of them has found a bit of Tornado jet so far! Only those with a very basic acquaintance with the area (like you when Paul Bradley was taking you round in his car) would make such as statement as you have. I clearly remember Andy Roberts asking you about well known places such as Margery Hill at the BUFORA Conference in 97 and you not having a clue what he was talking about. So much for your in-depth research which cost thousands of pounds! >You stated that the fire and rescue commander stated it was all >down to reports of a bang and flash in the sky.& I have checked >and sonic means sound, sonic booms do not cause flashes in the >sky. & so what we are really talking about here is explosion >with heat flame and a flash. First it was not the fire and rescue commander who said that - get your facts right. The police commander was giving her opinion, based upon the statement of the farmers who saw a low flying plane and saw a plume of smoke and a red glow over the moors. Her opinions are actually a side-issue and are not necessarily my own views; unlike you Max I like to let people speak in their own words. Sonic booms can be caused by jets breaking the sound barrier. They do that by rapid acceleration to supersonic speed with their engines at full tilt. Who says sonic booms do not cause flashes in the sky - have you ever seen a jet firing its afterburners and reaching supersonic speed? You obviously don't know what you are talking about. >You have also written that there was a boom and a flash, >"I think it was caused by two separate things that were tied >together" What were these two separate things. The two separate things were a sonic boom and a flash caused by a jet's engines causing the flash. That is a logical connection. Invoking "EM weapons" that we don't know exist is not a logical connection. Triangular UFOs don't even enter into the equation. The witnesses who reported a low-flying aircraft near Bolsterstone at precisely the time of the second sonic boom (10.06pm) did NOT see a triangular UFO. Those witnesses are Mr and Mrs Morton, Marie-France Tattersfield and John Littlewood. Strange therefore that Max has completely ignored Marie-france's statement because she was actually the police's prime witness - the person who actually triggered the search in the first place! Could that be because what she described was a plane and not a "triangle" and it wasn't possible to distort her evidence to fit your theory? (sorry - forgot that Marie France is an agent of the Government/Cover-Up....just like every one else who disagrees with you) >There are thirteen reservoirs in the area concerned and > they searched twoThey did not even search LadyBower > which is just >about the largest reservoir in the peaks and > happens to run along and under the very bridge where > Jonathan Dagenhart encountered the man who was > covered in aviation fuel.> Yes there are 13 reservoirs. Most of them provide drinking water for the cities of Sheffield and Manchester and are the subject of continuous structural and quality checks by Yorkshire Water and Seven Trent Water authorities. Both authorities routinely drain all 13 reservoirs on a rotational basis and Ladybower is often so low in summer you can see the church tower of the drowned Ashopton village church spire. The water board workers who regularly carry out these checks assure me they would have noticed if the wreckage of a 20-tonne Tornado fighter bomber was submerged or floating around in one of the reservoirs. First off the fuel and oil that would have leaked from the wreckage would have seeped straight into the water supply which I drink and which is subject to an array of stringent safety checks and triggered off a massive public safety alert within hours. It is simply impossible for a aircraft of that size and bulk to have disappeared into one of the reservoirs without having left a trace. That is a fact which can be independently established by anyone who makes the effort to contact Yorkshire Water and Severn Trent - as I have done. But it's an amusing aside that Max once told his chauffeur Paul Bradley that he was planning to hire a small boat and dredge the reservoirs himself! Now that would have been funny! >Mr. Jonathan Dagenhart Max seems intent on boring UpDates readers silly with his continual posting of Jonathan's tape transcript. But the transcript dosen't prove anything. If its the best evidence for a Tornado having been shot down then it shows what a dearth of evidence there is! No one doubts that Jonathan saw a man on the Ladybower viaduct - it is how that simple report has been taken out of context and used in a way that Dagenhart never intended that is my point. A point which Max simply cannot get through his brain because he has become so obsessed with finding anything to bolster his fantasy. The transcript clearly shows Jonathon just reporting what he saw; without speculation or frills .He dosen't say at any stage in the transcript that this man was a Tornado pilot - that is Max's interpretation; an interpretation which stretches credibility beyond any rational point. The term "acting suspiciously" was how the police categorised his report, which was known to have been caused by a failed suicide attempt. That is fact which can be checked independently with the Peak National Park Ranger service. But no doubt they are the agents of the cover-up too. >David Clarke then interviewed Jonathan Dagenhart 1 week after I >had recorded the first Interview, On the 11th and 12th of May. >Five days previous Mr Clark had rang the News of the World >While I was there to get the story stopped from going in the >News of the World. Max you really are inflating my ego by claiming that I have the power to stop the News of the World from running a story. Even the Attorney General has trouble doing that. The facts are that the News of the World did not use the story because the paper concluded Max's claims simply didn't stand up. Despite what you may think of newspapers, and the stories they print there always has to be evidence to support even the most ludicrous of claims. In this case the News of the World could see how preposterous the claims are, and how stupid it would make them look. All I did was send my colleague at the NOTW copies of the news cuttings that had appeared in the local press. They decided not to run your story - if you claim otherwise then lets see the proof, because you have none. >(Mr Dagenhart) Telephoned me on the 12th of May at >approximately 11.30 and sounding very flustered with a shaky >voice informed me that I had twisted what he said and he no >longer wanted to have his name put to his original statement. >He has also spoken with Mr. Phil Taylor at the News of the >World informing him that he was going to lose his job over the >statement that he had made to me. When I spoke to Phil taylor >at the N.o.T.W. he said the guy was almost in tears on the >phone. Has David Clark reduced this man to tears this is the >same day he Interviewed him, or was he made to retract his >statement. After I withdrew the thumbscrews from Mr Dagenhart he actually thanked me for doing him such a wonderful favour. In fact his words were "I owe you one mate - thanks for letting me know what I was letting myself in for." The facts are that Mr Dagenhart and his family are simply horrified at how Max has used his innocent testimony to support such extreme and bizarre claims. Jonathan has asked Max specifically NOT to use his name in his writings and postings, and yet Max has ignored his request and posted his name across the Internet. Who is being honest and who is being dishonest there Max? Do you respect a person's request not to have his name used without his permission? Do you adhere to any principles at all? Or are you just out to make a fast buck and to hell with who gets hurt on the way.... Hence your desperation to obtain =A31,500 from a tabloid newspaper at any cost. Surely that is the mark of a researcher dedicated to finding the truth! >Why would the RAF be hauling an engineer over the hot coals >like this to the point of him telling a national news reporter >that he was going to lose his job and trying to imply that I >have twisted what he has said, You are either stupid or naive if you really believe people have not lost their jobs by having their names associated with loony stories in Sunday tabloid newspapers. Anyone with an ounce of common sense would not like to see their name associated with a crazy UFO yarn in the News of the World, a paper which is only one step up from the Sunday Sport (a UK soft porn rag). Truth or untruth does not come into this equation; it's not what Jonathan's evidence was, it was the crazy theory it was going to be associated with that he was upset about - hence his retraction. >Why would the military be pressurising a member of their >workforce to retract a statement about something they claim > has not occurred. The military has not pressurised him into doing anything. He took the decision himself without any intimidation from anyone. If anyone does not believe me I can provide his phone number and you can ring and ask him youself! He's hardly been silenced - I've spoken to him several times, and he backs up everything I am saying. Get out of that one, Max. >Burns Ar Do you know, I must send you a full copy of > this report of what's happened Do you remember > they were looking for a crashed plane. So why did you not send him a copy of the report like you promised Max? Were you afraid he might be horrified at what was in it? In the end it was me who provided him with the relevant parts of it - no wonder he ended up in tears on the phone. Poor guy! >>"I just told him all what I saw that night and that is all I know". That last line sounds like the comment of someone under pressure and under Questioning,>> Yeah I had just got him under the bright light, strapped to the leather chair at that point, about to fit the electrodes into place. >After David had spoken with him and his bosses plus god knows who else He sounds like he has been beaten with hickory sticks.> He must have loved it though hence his heartfelt thanks afterwards for delivering him fromthe attentions of the loony world of ufology, I'm happy to come to the protection of any ordinary member of the public out there who might have the misfortune to fall into the clutches of the assorted cultists and weirdos who go around claiming to be UFO investigators, many of whom have got a screw loose and should not be turned loose on society. >You also claim John Beaver also told you.> I don't claim it Max, I have his transcribed verbatim statement in shorthand notes which can be inspected by anyone. >>The police told me that the RAF had admitted there was a >>plane doing a night time exercise and it had gone through the >>sound barrier. >>Now David are the Police lying to John Beaver is John beaver lying to you or are you lying to us now.. You see this credible statement is claiming something the RAF have still not admitted to. And infact at the time John Beavers men were told to stand down the RAF would not even admit Too having any planes in the air that night.! Well, David who's lying?>> A very good point Max and I agree with you it shows someone certainly is lying. But all I'm doing is presenting what Mr Beever told me accurately.That's all part of objectively presenting readers with un-edited and un-distorted information directly from original sources. It is then up to them to draw their own conclusions. That is good journalism and is how historians are trained to collect and analyse evidence. The trouble with you is that you are neither - you are a believer so you distort everything to fit your preconceived beliefs without you evenrealising you are doing it. However - its a trait that's glaringly obvious to everyone else ... and is the source of lots of amusement to us all. > you really don't expect us to believe That you have spoken to all the serious ufologists, in your opinion who are these people names please, I for one know of dozens of researchers who are in support of my research.> There are only a small number of serious researchers in the whole of the UKwho knowanything at all about this subject. All the rest have got into this subject in the last few years after watching a few episodes of the X-Files - you included judging by your increasingly lurid fantasies. I don't need to name them because they know who they are. Anyone who believes a UFO shot down a Tornado over the Peak District is plainly crazy, gullible or would believe the moon is made of green cheese if Max told them it was. There is no witness claiming to have seen such an event, and you have not come up with one shred of evidence that would stand up in a court of law. >> Even Nick Pope when questioned about Max's claims concerning the lost >>Tornado told me his opinion: "A load of utter b*****s". Really I have it in a public interview with Nick Pope, when I asked him Last year "Nick what is your opinion on the Sheffield Incident" He replied with "I don't know anything about it" In the same interview 15 minutes later he said "As far as we are concerned it remains unsolved" > You've missed the point again Max. Nick might not know anything about the incident, but he knows that NATO did not lose a jet that night, or that the RAF is capable of covering up the loss of one and the death of its pilot in the circumstances you describe for two years. I have seen the interview you describe and that is quite clearly what he states. At the Central TV Live UFO debate we attended I discussed the Sheffield case with Nick and I asked him what he thought of your conclusions about the Tornado jet. His response was exactly as I described it, and I was quite taken aback. I asked could I quote him on that and he said I could! >During the last 12 months Martin and myself have interviewed all =D8 the witnesses (including Emma Maidenhead) David you have not interviewed Emma Maidenhead, however When you got Martin to ring myself, because once again you needed to discredit some witnesses, I gave Emma martins Phone number and she rang him.> So I forced Martin to ring her and intimidated him too? No doubt Martin will be responding to your crazy allegations himself on Updates. Martin can speak for himself and has already done so on this listing. What readers have to ask is why was Max so desperate to stop me from speaking to Emma? What had he got to hide? Perhaps it was this: Martin concluded that she was easily led, and that she was completely under your influence and would say anything you wanted her to. If you don't believe me ask Martin - that valued and respected researcher (your own words) >David this is really strange as I also supplied Dan Graysons Tel number for Martin, but you will leach your info from anywhere > Dan Grayson's phone number is freely available in the BT Phone Book forSheffield. I simply looked it up and phoned him and he was more than happy to speak to me. Yes Martin spoke to him initially but concluded his evidence was worthless as he had not seen any triangle like you claimed he had. Got your facts wrong again. Can you get anything right? >Reported was in a local paper obviously not the Star, because he would have been put through to yourself as all people who ring the paper you work for with UFO sightings are and you would have simply reported it as another arrival from Amsterdam airport into Sheffield, as you have been doing with all ufo triangle reports even though at the time the airport was not completed.> Oh dear - you've got your facts badly wrong yet again! The "triangle" report you described was caused by a KLM flight from Amsterdam, and the airport was open and fully functional at the time of that sighting Max, as you well know. The witnesses themselves were happy to accept they had seen and misinterpreted a aircraft which was coming in to land at precisely the time they saw the "UFO". You are the only person who continues to believe otherwise! >But just to redress the balance here, you spoke with the witness Mrs Dronfield the elderly lady from High Bradfield, And you wrote something to the effect of she saw some strange Very bright aircraft lights very low going down behind the houses.> > After speaking to Mrs. Dronfield I concluded that what she thought was a cigar shaped object could well have been the triangular object sighted by Emma Maidenhead but seen from a side view.> Speculation if I ever saw it - complete and utter speculation. > Mrs Dronfield saw the object from side on at a low altitude, whereas Emma Maidenhead saw the object above her and so was able to see its overall shape. Both witnesses are entirely genuine and are certain of what they saw. Mrs Dronfield is an 80 year old lady who in her entire life has never had or felt the need to call the police about anything. She is intelligent and fully in control of her mental faculties&> Mrs Dronfield called the police to report what she saw after hearing radio reports about the alleged aircrash on the moors. That's all there is to it. You were the one who told this old lady she had seen "an Extraterrestrial spaceship". She just simply reported what she saw. It's my belief she saw an aircraft. We must agree to differ. >The thing is David after your article in ufo Mag I called Mrs Dronfield In light of what you had wrote about her recollection of the nights events She assured me that she had told you exactly the same as she told me.> My article in UFO mag says: "one witness in Stannington said she could not see any wings on the object which she described as like a long cigar which looked like it was on fire because it glowed. She said this eerie looking craft came from the direction of Bradfield and disappeared towards Strines." That is precisely what she told me and precisely what I reported. I have her statement in shorthand notes in front of me as I type this, >Why have you altered and almost ignored what this lady told us both?> I haven't. You are deluding yourself. Why have you ignored Marie-France Tattersfield's evidence? >No doubt this saga will continue and I wish Dave well in his attempts to disprove the provable. > I don't have to prove anything Max. I'm not the one who is making the fantastic claims - that's you, remember? And so far you have come up with nothing except fantasy, confabulation and nonsense to support them. >I believe that the actions of David Clark, Andy Robert's Must be Considered a high risk probability, that they are working to an agenda Originally not there own, and the IUN group which they are involved with is a further grip ufology Does not need freedom of speech for all. You Have been warned> Yeah we are both in the pay of MI5 and the Security Services. That's why I live in a tiny terraced house and drive a rusty Fiat Punto. Wages at M15 weren't what they used to be! Keep on dreaming Max, if the paranoid delusions don't get the better of you first. >I am sure that David will be pleased to hear that I am to give a lecture on the Sheffield case at the BUFORA London Lectures.> It should be screened nationally so we can all have a great belly laugh. Perhaps you can get the audience to chip in at the end so that you can hire that little boat and go dredging the reservoir for the crashed Tornado. Actually I will be giving a talk on the same subject for BUFORA the following month, so you will be in company. >You are still the BUFORA press officer arnt you David?> Yes thankyou, and your attempts to undermine my position are glaringly obvious for everyone to see. They won't work as I don't give in to intimidation. As for John Spencer's views his comment on your theories is this: "because I argued we should not supress views does NOT mean I agree with them! John S." Max labours under the impression that no one should be interested or studying UFOs if they don't "believe in UFOs and aliens". That is my definition of "fascist". Keep on dreaming Max... Best Regards.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 16 Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality From: judithdale <judithdale@earthlink.net> Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 13:00:06 -0800 Fwd Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 08:49:30 -0500 Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >From: Leanne Martin <leanne_martin@hotmail.com> >To: updates@globalserve.net >Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 15:17:30 PST >>Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 14:19:42 -0800 >>From: Judith Dale <judithdale@earthlink.net> >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >>Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >>Greetings all, >>As I've been following this discussion, regarding 'Abduction - >>The Issue of Reality', I've found myself feeling angry, >>frustrated, stunned, and finally amused about the hue and cry >>for 'proof'. ><snip> >>On the first occasion, I found myself sitting on the floor by >>the bed, feeling disoriented and stunned. On the second >>occasion, I found myself sitting up in bed, feeling disoriented >>and stunned. On both occasions, I looked at the clock and was >>amazed. With the first event, it was one hour past the time the >>radio should have come on. With the second event, it was almost >>two hours past wakeup time. Both times, I checked the clock. >>Yes, it was set. No, I hadn't forgotten to set it the night >>before. It should have come on. There had been no power failure, >>I had set it, it simply didn't come on. ><snip> >G'day Judith, >The evidence is _absolutely clear_. The time has come to buy a >new clock . . .. <g> >Regards, >Leanne ];-) Hi Leanne and list, You know, I thought about getting a new clock, never did. Still have the same one. Works great. Even has a battery backup in case the power goes off. At least my automatic coffee maker worked right both times I went journeying with those folks. Shoot, if they'd stuck around, I could've been the proper hostess, and offered them a cup ;-) Shalom, Judith
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 16 Re: Bach's 'Reality Check' From: Sue Kovios <bradford@globalserve.net> Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 16:33:20 -0500 Fwd Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 08:55:54 -0500 Subject: Re: Bach's 'Reality Check' >Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 03:06:26 -0700 >From: Ron Bach <roam5@utinet.com> >To: UFO Updates <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: Bach's 'Reality Check' >Grim as it may sound, the world is coming to an end. At least >that is the message around the world from Hi-Tech Corporations, >Ufology, and Conspiracy circles. Throw in the Anti-Christ and it >gets real scary. >The question then is, if people like Dr. Greer are capable of >communicating with the ET's, and if people like Richard Hoagland >have proof of an Asteroid hit in June 1999, why don�t they ask >the ET's to take them to a safe place? Like maybe a distant >Galactic Planet? Or why doesn't Dr. Greer request the ET's to >blow up the Asteroid for the good of humanity in the first >place? >May be it is time for a Reality Check, Now. Better yet, maybe it's time for those who really know what the hell is going on, to let us in on their little secrets. 80% of the population is totally oblivious to any of this. If you asked them what Y2K was they probably would say it's the size of a diamond. And if you asked them what an asteroid was they'd probably recollect Hailey's Comet. Secrets lead to speculation, and speculation to rumour, and you know the old telephone line routine. 'We're going looking for star dust' could turn into 'There's an asteroid coming at us'. If Hoagland and the 'peace and light' societies have this knowledge who are their sources? And if they know, why don't the rest of us? Or perhaps 'This is a test, this is only a test', compliments of FEMA. Live one day at a time is great if you've got all the time in the world. Actually we do because we don't know exactly when it's going to end, so we should. But if we had an inkling of our future, think of all the things we would do differently, and perhaps even for one another. Unfortunately, secrets aren't meant to keep us together. They're meant to deceive and conceal (for 50 years) until it's safe to come out of the closet and it's too late for repercussion. Isn't it grand that our leaders, and theirs, can live in a world without guilt or accountability. They obviously don't owe us anything. But can you imagine, if any of this is real, what terror they must live with. I don't feel for them whatsoever. And if this is just hype, I still don't feel for them. Putting people through has always been their style. Unfortunately, we live in a wait-and-see world. That's reality, always has been, always will be. You can't take very much at face value any more. Sue
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 16 Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality From: John Rimmer <magonia@magonia.demon.co.uk> Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 22:47:09 +0000 Fwd Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 08:58:53 -0500 Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >From: Tim D. Brigham <devilsad@ksinc.net> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 17:32:10 -0600 >>Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 17:55:43 +0000 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >>From: John Rimmer <magonia@magonia.demon.co.uk> >>Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality ><snip> >>Experimental psychologists may be trying to prove that >>percipients are suffering from some sort of psychopathology. I >>doubt if many sceptical or psychosocial ufologists are. the >>point we are trying to get across is that these sorts of >>experiences are part of the _normal_ funtioning of the brain >>under certain conditions. >John, Greg, all, >Can you please clarify this last statement? What is meant by >"normal functioning" and "certain conditions?" I _think_ I know >what you mean by this statement, just by knowing, to some >degree, where you are coming from, but you discuss >psychopathology as abnormal, while saying abduction related >experiences are results of "normal" functions. <massive snip> Yes, I could have put this better, my only excuse is that because of the transatlantic time difference I am usually writing this stuff at midnight after a hard day at the library battling with English majors. What I mean is that there are a certain number of psycholocical conditions which can occur in individuals not suffering from any psychopathology: things like false awakenings, hypnogogic and hypnopompic imagery, some kinds of fugue states (so-called highway hypnosis, for instance), which can cause most of the situations described in abduction reports. These states are not necessarily, or even generally, associated with extreme stress or trauma, but seem to be part of the normal functioning of the brain. -- John Rimmer www.magonia.demon.co.uk Abandon hope all ye who press Enter here
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 16 Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net> Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 16:12:35 -0800 Fwd Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 09:01:51 -0500 Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 15:14:08 -0600 (CST) >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >From: Dennis <dstacy@texas.net> >Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >And on National Public Radio not too long ago, I heard a >rendition, by a bloody Englishman I believe, of Woody Guthrie's >flying saucer song, circa the late Forties. Dennis: A Woody Guthrie F.S. song! I never heard of that! Is there any chance of putting the lyrics (at least) on the list? Best - Larry Hatch
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 16 Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net> Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 16:36:31 -0800 Fwd Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 09:05:10 -0500 Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 01:41:24 -0500 >>Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 17:55:43 +0000 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >>From: John Rimmer <magonia@magonia.demon.co.uk> >>Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >>I do so enjoy Greg's musical diversions. >There's a ufologist who's active on the Project 1947 list who >once played the banjo in a production of Kurt Weill's "Mahagonny" >at the San Francisco Opera. I blush to say that I've forgotten >his name. That was me, Larry Hatch .. some 30 years ago! I am no longer active in the music scene. Mahagonny ran for two weeks at the Curran Theater. It was considered "light opera". BTW, The same Curran Theater just finished the longest run in its, or San Francisco history: F.L. Weber's "Phantom of the Opera". -LH
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 16 Bimini From: Dr. Virgilio Sanchez-Ocejo <pharaoh@web2000.net> Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 20:16:07 -0800 Fwd Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 09:11:45 -0500 Subject: Bimini FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE PRESS RELEASE -- 05 FEBRUARY (FOR VALENTINE'S DAY), 1999 Update on the Scott Stones Research: As the true story of the evolution of civilization begins to unfold through information now coming forth from ancient records discovered by the Scott Stones explorers, they are STILL AWAITING help from the authorities in instituting appropriate protection for the site. The safety of extremely valuable artifacts is at stake, and this aspect is of far greater concern to the explorers than any fleeting thrill that might be obtained by being the first to blurt out information identifying the location of this precious evidence. A greedy desire to be first could cause irreparable damage which would forever be regretted. As a matter of fact, ITS TOO LATE, NOW, TO BE FIRST, anyway! And those who are still desperately searching for positive, unquestionable proof of Atlantis -- hoping for fame and fortune, as a result of being the first to reveal such long-awaited evidence, are just TOO LATE! -- *IT HAS ALREADY HAPPENED*! Some of the frustrated and unbelieving are already expressing their opinion that the Scott Stones evidence is 'still lurking in the realms of the unproven.' And unfortunately, there are even some who would prefer to have this evidence REMAIN UNSEEN -- while they frantically scramble to come up with some kind of visible evidence of their own! Be it as it may, until appropriate protection has been instituted; there will be no pictures released by the Scott Stones explorers nor will further on-site investigations have a chance to begin (through their consent). Nevertheless, while awaiting the orderly establishment of proper safeguards, the explorers will continue to release announcements of various evidence that has come to light through their research. With this in mind, the explorers are happy to announce publicly, that **INCONTROVERTIBLE EVIDENCE HAS NOW SURFACED** from their research that can finally solve one of the most vexing mysteries of recent archaeology in the Bimini area! For many years there has been considerable interest in Bimini and its surrounding environs. Since the 1920's, the Cayce followers have spearheaded this concern and have held firmly to their belief that this area was once a part of the sunken continent of Atlantis -- based on little more than their unwavering faith in the clairvoyant readings of Edgar Cayce. The remarkable explorer and researcher, Dr. Manson Valentine, was ALSO of the opinion that this area had once been the seat of a long-forgotten civilization -- based (in his case, however,) on many accounts of archaeological evidence which he, himself, had amassed through years of dedicated fieldwork and investigation. His announcements, concerning the discovery of the 'Bimini Wall' in 1968, startled the world. The news was heralded as the long-awaited proof, championing the theory that the Bimini area had once been a part of Atlantis. This grand explorer passed away in 1994, at the age of 92. He had perseveringly pursued the evidence for a quarter-of-a-century and had maintained his beliefs concerning the Bimini Wall right to the very end. His obituary stated that HE: "WENT TO HIS GRAVE BELIEVING that the stones were part of the sunken continent of Atlantis." However, now, after more than three decades of serious effort and overall expenditures, involving millions of dollars; little in the way of verifiable proof has come forth to support former claims concerning the validity of the 'Bimini Wall.' Did it indeed play some important role in this ancient, lost civilization? Was it actually part of the infra-structure of the sunken continent of Atlantis? THIS BAFFLING MYSTERY HAS NOW BEEN SOLVED! The Scott Stones explorers have uncovered tangible archaeological evidence that can finally explain this long-standing mystery. This amazing evidence surfaced unexpectedly as a sidelight of their previous research, involving the ancient megalithic culture and the ruins of its temples which they had discovered in 1994. There had been no intentional investigation of the 'Bimini Wall' on their part. The evidence developed as an enexpected result of correlations that were drawn from their earlier discoveries. This evidence now PROVES, once and for all (after all these years), that THE 'BIMINI WALL' WAS *INDEED* A VALID PART OF THE SUNKEN REALM OF ATLANTIS! Its former purpose and function have now been positively and unequivocally identified! So, the big question: 'Who discovered Atlantis'? Well, if it wasn't Solon or Bill Gates, then IT WAS VALENTINE! This, of course, means that those still desperately trying to track down proof-positive evidence of Atlantis, so as to be 'first and foremost' in presenting such evidence, are already TOO LATE! THE PRIZE HAS ALREADY BEEN TAKEN! DR. MANSON VALENTINE TOOK THIS CROWN, over three decades ago -- awarded to him, now, posthumously! The Scott Stones Research clearly shows that Valentine and his Bimini Wall announcements were the first reports of tangible evidence of a valid part of what is now known to have been Plato's Atlantis. This new evidence ALSO PROVES that this distinguished discovery actually occurred PRECISELY at the time (1968) that Cayce had predicted such a discovery would occur! Meaning: Dr. Valentine had been correct! the readings of Edgar Cayce, concerning this discovery, had been correct! and those who previously believed them had been correct! This, of course, ALSO MEANS: those who rejected these earlier reports had been *WRONG*! -- and here lies the grand-entanglement! and the very reason that some have already 'dropped-the-ball' in the face of this new evidence. Meanwhile the general public continues to cry, 'let us see it, and we'll believe it'! But then, there's that 'ever-mysterious element' that always seems to be involved. And, that is the 'believe it, and you'll see it' factor. That's the one, of course, that generally perplexes the majority of unbelievers. Pictures, video, and actual evidence will begin to be released by the Scott Stones explorers, after the site has been protected. ALL -- awaits: proper protection of the site! In the interim, for those who have read the "CHALLENGE' press release, issued on December 21, 1998: We're still 'keeping a list'! Interested parties may contact: <scottstones @ hotmail.com > (the Egyptology Society is no longer processing information concerning the Scott Stones Research -- we thank them for their previous assistance)
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 16 Re: Robert Todd On MJ-12 From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com> Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 20:24:29 EST Fwd Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 09:14:26 -0500 Subject: Re: Robert Todd On MJ-12 >From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: Re: Robert Todd On MJ-12 >Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 08:32:45 -0400 >>From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com> >>Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 10:04:07 EST >>To: updates@globalserve.net >>Subject: Re: Robert Todd On MJ-12 <snip> >I certainly appreciate the calm tone of Kevin's posting. Thank you, Stan. <snip> >Bob Wood's document examiner, Mr. Black, has already >professionally stated that the TF memo typeface is appropriate >for the time frame . That will be published shortly if it hasn't >been already. Did he use a complete strike up of the various typefaces as did the questioned document examiner that you contacted? >Nobody seems to be mentioning that it was TIM GOOD in the UK >that first published the EBD. This could be because Barry Greenwood established that Good had received his copies of the EBD from a "CIA" source who turned out to be Moore. Greenwood did a devastating expose of how he was able to prove that that Good's copy came from Moore. I even talked about it in A History of UFO Crashes. (Hey, everyone else is mentioning their books, so I thought I would join in.) >Bill Moore was indeed given to playing games. That is a far cry >from him and Jaime being professional document forgers. No one said they were professionals. And didn't Moore basically admit that he had "retyped" the Aquarius Telex, added the headings in a cut and paste job, and then admit that the MJ-12 reference wasn't there in the first place? <snip> >I have been told that forgers are normally very very careful to >do nothing that calls their work into question. That is >certainly not the case here. with the unusual Classification, >traceable paper etc Kevin is aware that I have dealt at length >with his objections to the MJ-12 documents in my 37 page, l994, >paper "Operation Majestic 12? YES!". I am pleased that at least >I am not being named as a forger. Even Phil Klass hasn't gone >that far. Certainly aware of the paper but don't buy the arguments. >While most on this list are probably aware that Kevin and I have >had strong differences, they may not be as aware that the >communicatons between Kevin and Don Schmitt and Bill and Jaime >were as I recall much stronger. Please leave me out of that. Schmitt was the one allegedly in contact with Moore and Shandera. As far as I know, I have never spoken to Bill Moore and met Shandera once, in Roswell, in 1997 and we didn't talk about MJ-12 or anything like that. He was busy trying to convince me that J. Bond Johnson hadn't said that Ramey told him, Johnson, that the debris was from a balloon. I didn't buy that argument either. KRandle
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 16 Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality From: Jeff King <Boroimhe@aol.com> Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 20:32:39 EST Fwd Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 09:17:16 -0500 Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net> >Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 17:06:47 -0500 >Fwd Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 09:22:57 -0500 >Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >But implants and missing pregnancies aren't predictions made >from the hypothesis that aliens are abducting us. They're >additional claims made by abductees and investigators. The >abductions could be real, and even so the claims of implants and >pregnancies could be wrong. While your statement is true, it is also true for any aspect of abduction claims. For a purely hypothetical example, if you could prove that every abductee seen by Hopkins, Jacobs, Carpenter and Mack was lying, that still wouldn't prove that real abductions aren't happening. Hell, it could turn out that Fiore and the Hotub man were right all along. The main importance of the pregnancy and implant claims is that they can be independently tested by means that don't only rely on verbal testimony. On the one hand the existence of such claims allows us to test the skill and diligence of abduction investigators in verifying abduction claims. As I mentioned in anther post, so far the abduction investigators have failed the test. On the other hand they also give us a way to test the trustworthiness of abduction claims generally. (Note, before the flames start, I use the term trustworthiness in the sense of whether claims are reporting a physically real occurrence, not whether abductees are lying.) Again, with the caveat that too few tests have been made, every recovered implant has been shown to be of an earthly nature, and the only (reported) fully investigated missing pregnancy was shown to be within the norms of human medical science. If parts of a claim that can be independently tested continue to come up short, it's reasonable to conclude that the unverifiable parts are also suspect. >There _are_ real questions about how to conduct monitoring and what >it might or might not show, which doesn't mean we shouldn't do it. >I don't see the point, though, of discounting in advance what any party >to the debate is likely to say. And when did I say the monitoring shouldn't take place? If you want to argue about something, at least start with a point I actually make. If you recall, I agreed with you that electronic monitoring is a good idea. My contribution to the idea is to require double blind assignment between a test group with active monitors and a control group with dummy monitors. While there are barriers to monitoring, the main one, as in most of modern life's endeavors, is cost. As for discounting a party's position, I merely pointed out the response that certain parties have provided to all contrary evidence. Look at Jacobs and video monitoring. When several abductees are seen getting up and turning off the machine, he concludes that aliens made them do it. Surely more earthbound explanations should have been considered and tested first. So my point was-the monitoring is a perfectly good way of testing claims, but if the results contradict the physical abduction scenario, I think past pronouncements make it reasonable to predict how some of the more prominent investigators will answer. Regards, Jeff
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 16 Re: 'Chrome Football' Shuttle Footage From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 01:27:34 -0500 Fwd Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 11:59:09 -0500 Subject: Re: 'Chrome Football' Shuttle Footage >Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 21:24:08 +0000 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >From: Sean Jones <tedric@tedric.demon.co.uk> >Subject: Re: 'Chrome Football' Shuttle Footage >>Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 14:47:04 -0500 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >>From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> >>Subject: Re: 'Chrome Football' Shuttle Footage >>Hello All, >>If one of my Listmates in the UK would make a video recording of >>this for me I would send $ to cover any and all expenses. I am >>especially interested in securing a copy of this shuttle >>footage. If you can do this for me, contact me privately at >>jvif@spacelab.net and we'll make arrangements. Thank you. (I can >>have the tape transferred from PAL to VHS format on this end, so >>not to worry about incompatibility.) >Hiya John, >You sweet-talked me :-) >I'll let you have a copy of my copy if you want :-) I can't >record NTSC but I can watch NTSC, is it the same with you and >PAL? Hiya Sean, I have already had several offers but since I already have a long time friendship with you I'll take you up on your offer! Geez, I'm not sure but I think I have to get PAL converted to NTSC _before_ I can play it on my machine at home. Actually, what I want to do is digitize it and study it frame by frame in my computer. The 'cleaner' the copy the better! Thanx buddy! I'll contact you privately and make arrangements. Thanks all who offered to help. Regards,
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 16 =?iso-8859-1?Q?UFO_UpDate:_Re:_On_Ed_Fouch=E9_Speaking_at_?= From: Josh Goldstein <clearlt@pacbell.net> Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 01:03:00 -0800 Fwd Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 12:05:50 -0500 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?UFO_UpDate:_Re:_On_Ed_Fouch=E9_Speaking_at_?= Hi Everyone, This Wednesday, the speaker at MUFON LA will be Ed Fouch=E9, the author of "Alien Rapture: The Chosen". You may remember a bit of a fuss on here in January when Mr. Fouch=E9's sister tried to defend her brother regarding Tim Mathews' questioning his background and authenticity. I am interested if anyone outside of the Fouch=E9s has investigated if there is any truth to his classified background, especially his claim of having worked in Area 51. I'm a follower of the "extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof" standard. I can find nothing on UFO Mind where anyone investigated his claimed background. His bookmate, the notorious Brad Steiger has his own questionable author background. So Tim Mathews, Stanton Friedman, anyone else, what gives with this guy? Is he another bizarre poseur running his "insider info" rap a la Lazar, Corso, and a flock of odd birds? Can he produce more verification than Lazar's W2 form? Mr. Fouch=E9 claims he has paystubs, etc. Has his name gone through massive whiteouts a la Lazar and his history. How hard should I laugh or is there anything redeeming about Mr. Fouch=E9? thanks, Josh Goldstein MJ-13
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 16 Riddle of the Skies - Part 3 From: Neil Morris <Neil@adm1.ph.man.ac.uk> Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 10:31:01 +0000 Fwd Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 12:20:59 -0500 Subject: Riddle of the Skies - Part 3 All, I'd just like to comment on part of the David Spoor video footage seen in the 3rd part of Riddle of the Skies which aired here in the UK last night (Mon 15th Feb). My comments are aimed at the "night footage" where Mr Spoor shot a segment of vidoe from out the front of his house of an "object" hovering not too far away down the street and which then speeds away off to the left and out of shot, it's quite a spectacular piece of video, as the object doesn't seem to exibit any acceleration when it moves off, it seems to change from stationary to "cruise speed" from one frame to the next, most odd. But that's not the item I would like to make comment about, interesting though it is. This segment of video was examined and commented on by a commercial company specialising in photo analysis, I don't have the name to hand whithout trawling through the tape but he came up with the comment that he thought the tape as supplied had been copied "from a TV screen" and as such wasn't a 1st generation copy and so was unable to make a judement. Looking at the the tape I find this curious, IF Mr Spoor had copied the footage by "shooting a TV screen" using std "domestic" VCR and camera I would have expected just a smidgim of "frame float" on the resultant tape, as there would be no "lock" between the VCR sync and the camera sync. Broadcasters and AV outfits use a system called "Genlock" which uses a master sync generator so that ALL the equipement locks together, this gives a solid frame lock when you switch to, or feed from, any video source in the system. Now to my eyes the piece of video "seemed" rock solid sync-wise, which to me infers the equipement used, _if_ it had been copied in that manner was a "little" more sophisticated than your common or garden domestic camcorder and VCR. A few alternatives spring to mind, either Mr Spoor has connections with professional equipment which opens up the avenue to a hoax, or the guy giving the analysis got it wrong and the video was not copied as he thought, or from the way he seemed to be trying to talk his way out of giving ANY opinion, it was total "verbage". ???Has anyone got this footage, I would like a close look??. I also found it interesting that there WERE witnesses to at least some of the sightings he taped. Neil. -- * * * * * * * * Neil Morris. /101101101 Virtual Bumper Stickers Inc 10110101010\ Dept of Physics. 1 1 Univ of Manchester 0 0 Schuster Labs. 1 Computer Programmers DO IT with BITS of BYTES 1 Brunswick St. 0 0 Manchester. 1 1 UK. \0101010110010110110010110101101011011110101011010/ G8KOQ E-mail: neil@adm1.ph.man.ac.uk Roswell and Alien Autopsy Archive-> http://adm2.ph.man.ac.uk/ Dave Willetts Home Page-> http://adm2.ph.man.ac.uk/dave_willetts/ Mike Sterling Home Page-> http://adm2.ph.man.ac.uk/mike-s/ Tim Morgan Home Page -> http://adm2.ph.man.ac.uk/tim-m/ * * * * * * * *
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 16 Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net> Date: Tue, 16 Feb 99 10:37:38 PST Fwd Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 12:37:08 -0500 Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 16:12:35 -0800 >From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >>Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 15:14:08 -0600 (CST) >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >>From: Dennis <dstacy@texas.net> >>Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >>And on National Public Radio not too long ago, I heard a >>rendition, by a bloody Englishman I believe, of Woody Guthrie's >>flying saucer song, circa the late Forties. >Dennis: A Woody Guthrie F.S. song! >I never heard of that! Is there any chance of putting the >lyrics (at least) on the list? Larry, Dennis's "bloody Englishman" is the left-wing singer-songwriter Billy Bragg. In the spring of 1995, Woody Guthrie's daughter Nora (Woody himself died in 1967 after being bedridden with Huntington's Chorea since the early 1950s) approached Bragg and asked if he'd be interested in setting music to lyrics her father had written but never turned into songs. The result was the 1998 CD Mermaid Avenue (Elektra), on which Bragg and the American alternative-country band Wilco put new melodies to Guthrie's words. Interviewed on National Public Radio, Bragg said he and Wilco had recorded some 40 songs, only 15 of which appear on the CD. One of the unreleased numbers was a light-hearted song about flying saucers. As I recall, Bragg either mentioned it only in passing or (less likely) played a short extract from it. If the latter, I think I -- as a ufologist as well as a songwriter with a longtime interest in the folk- music movement -- would have remembered it. Guthrie habitually wrote songs out of the daily newspaper. Perhaps the most famous of his newspaper-inspired songs is "Philadelphia Lawyer," among the few of his compositions to become a country hit (originally by the Maddox Brothers and Rose and since covered by many others). The saucer song was no doubt written with a press account of the new craze/mystery at hand. Jerry Clark
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 17 Re: Bach's 'Reality Check' From: Judith Dale <judithdale@earthlink.net> Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 09:09:33 -0800 Fwd Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 02:21:44 -0500 Subject: Re: Bach's 'Reality Check' >Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 16:33:20 -0500 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >From: Sue Kovios <bradford@globalserve.net> >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Bach's 'Reality Check' >>Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 03:06:26 -0700 >>From: Ron Bach <roam5@utinet.com> >>To: UFO Updates <updates@globalserve.net> >>Subject: Bach's 'Reality Check' >>Grim as it may sound, the world is coming to an end. At least >>that is the message around the world from Hi-Tech Corporations, >>Ufology, and Conspiracy circles. Throw in the Anti-Christ and it >>gets real scary. >>The question then is, if people like Dr. Greer are capable of >>communicating with the ET's, and if people like Richard Hoagland >>have proof of an Asteroid hit in June 1999, why don�t they ask >>the ET's to take them to a safe place? Like maybe a distant >>Galactic Planet? Or why doesn't Dr. Greer request the ET's to >>blow up the Asteroid for the good of humanity in the first >>place? >>May be it is time for a Reality Check, Now. >Better yet, maybe it's time for those who really know what the >hell is going on, to let us in on their little secrets. 80% of >the population is totally oblivious to any of this. If you >asked them what Y2K was they probably would say it's the size of >a diamond. And if you asked them what an asteroid was they'd >probably recollect Hailey's Comet. > >Secrets lead to speculation, and speculation to rumour, and you >know the old telephone line routine. 'We're going looking for >star dust' could turn into 'There's an asteroid coming at us'. ><snip> >Live one day at a time is great if you've got all the time in >the world. Actually we do because we don't know exactly when >it's going to end, so we should. But if we had an inkling of >our future, think of all the things we would do differently, and >perhaps even for one another. Greetings Sue and all, As far as I can tell, from my studies of history, there have always been 'chicken littles'. In addition, it seems that as certain 'significant' dates approach, their hue and cry becomes even louder and more hysterical. The end is coming, and we'd best be prepared. Save our bodies, build shelters, leave the cities, get weapons, food, etc. Save our souls, live righteously and get saved, by some outside powerful force. The government is keeping secrets, and we are the victims of its lies. Quick now, scramble around, get prepared. Oh no, maybe an asteroid is going to bonk the planet. Maybe China, Russia, or North Korea are going to nuke us. The environment is failing, we are killing it and ourselves in the process. There's new strains of bacteria, resistant to antibiotics, exotic viruses of dubious origin, old viruses emerging again. Let's see, have I left anything out ? Oh yes, I have. Our current life span is what, 80 + years ? Then what ? Oh right, the body dies. Yup, doesn't matter what we do, its going to happen. Well, some go sooner, but we all go. My point here, is why panic ? What difference should it make if we know ahead of time when our individual or collective end is coming ? We could, each of us, live each day as if it is the last. We could work on saving ourselves and not give our power away. What a concept. Sue, I think you're right in your assessment of the effect of secrets. Speculation does indeed lead to rumor, etc. Add in the effect of those crying the end in loud voices, and confusion and fear reigns. However, I think we, perhaps, are being to busy assigning blame. How would it be, if we each of us stood tall and strong in our very competent and powerful human selves ? Perhaps we could stop the abductions, hold the visitors/intruders accountable for their behaviors. Tell the 'government' you all just go right on playing your games of power and deception. 'Cause guess what, we've figured it out for ourselves, and we've realized you're just like Rikki Tikki Tavi, and you aren't going to kill our snakes for us. The visitors/intruders most likely aren't going to save us . Neither will some guru savior. Reality check? Yes, indeed. We will all die. Some day, some how. In the mean time, let's work together to make our lives powerful to live and behold. Let's stop 'fiddling while Rome burns'. Regards, Judith
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 17 Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net> Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 12:17:49 -0500 Fwd Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 02:34:51 -0500 Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 16:12:35 -0800 >From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >>And on National Public Radio not too long ago, I heard a >>rendition, by a bloody Englishman I believe, of Woody >>Guthrie's flying saucer song, circa the late Forties. >Dennis: A Woody Guthrie F.S. song! >I never heard of that! Is there any chance of putting the >lyrics (at least) on the list? There's also one by Jimmy Durante! I don't have the record, so I can't supply the lyrics. It's pretty funny, though. Greg Sandow
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 17 Re: Pope On A Rope From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net> Date: Tue, 16 Feb 99 12:40:31 PST Fwd Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 03:23:56 -0500 Subject: Re: Pope On A Rope >Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 23:09:25 -0600 (CST) >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net> >Subject: Re: Pope On A Rope >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net> >>Subject: Re: Pope On A Rope >>Date: Mon, 15 Feb 99 11:41:26 PST >>>Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 12:36:27 -0500 >>>From: Andy Roberts <Brigantia@compuserve.com> >>>Subject: Re: Pope On A Rope >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >>I'm afraid our friend shows his hand here. We are informed, >>with precisely no evidence bearing one way or another on the >>question, that Nick Pope's (er, excuse me, "Popey's") experience >>was "imaginary." How do we know? Why, Andy told us so! That >>being the case, how could we doubt? And who would believe >>somebody called "Popey" anyway? >And you're showing your hand as well. Nick Pope is England's >equivalent of Philip Corso, except that the former is still >naive. >Yes, he got a huge advance and wrote a bestselling book based on >his experience at the MoD. All well and good. But as Andy >Roberts said, with no mention of any prior UFO knowledge or >experience of his own, in fact, a denial of same. >Then he wrote a second book about UFO abductions (about which >Albion's inhabitants are supposed to be experts?), and suddenly >he's been abducted himself! Now, both accounts can't be right. >Somewhere along the line Pope has lied, or, if you prefer, >prevaricated or dissembled (or merely omitted until the time was >right). >Corso couldn't have done better. But you don't seem too >concerned about that. Dennis, I rest my case. No slander against a hated advocate of heresy is enough, it appears. Not a shred of evidence of supports your outrageous charge that Pope (er, excuse me, "Popey") and Philip Corso are morally equivalent, unless you know -- which I very seriously doubt -- a whole hell of a lot more than you're revealing here. The attempt at moral equivalency here staggers the mind. Jerry Clark
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 17 Re: Pope On A Rope From: Andy Roberts <Brigantia@compuserve.com> Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 12:54:09 -0500 Fwd Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 03:41:12 -0500 Subject: Re: Pope On A Rope >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net> >Subject: Re: Pope On A Rope >Date: Mon, 15 Feb 99 11:41:26 PST Jerry Clarke wrote: >I'm afraid our friend shows his hand here. We are informed, >with precisely no evidence bearing one way or another on the >question, that Nick Pope's (er, excuse me, "Popey's") experience >was "imaginary." How do we know? Why, Andy told us so! That >being the case, how could we doubt? And who would believe >somebody called "Popey" anyway? I never believed my hand was hidden Jerry! You were informed 'with precisely no evidence' for the simple reason that Pope has never provided any evidence his alleged experience was anything _other_ than imaginary. The point which you missed - again - is a significant one. Let's break it down: - Pope claims he had no knowledge in or interest of UFOs prior to working on the UFO desk at the MOD - Pope claims the information he gleaned vis a vis UFOs whilst _at_ the MOD is the truth, he even hints at things he knows which he can't reveal to us mere mortals - Then in the first draft of 'Open Skies....' he writes about an alleged abduction experience which happend _to_him_. - Pope _denies_ this was the case, despite it being seen by Jenny Randles when she was sent the draft copy - The experience then surfaces pseudonymously in Pope's second book - He _still_ denies it had anything to do with him - even on live TV - Then, lawdy, lawdy. He comes out and says it was him after all. Now in my book that makes disingenuous, at the very least, for not coming clean. It also begs the *serious- question of how are we supposed to believe *anything- he writes or lectures about. Pope is regarded by many people as _the_ man, thousands attend his lectures, tens of thousands read his books. Most of them believe every word he says. Hell, he's a nice, affable guy. But he clearly has problems with a straight story. So what is his material _really_ worth? Jerry also wrote: >It seems to me that the Pope matter is worth noting as a matter >of some small passing interest, then relegating to obscurity. Simply because either a) you miss the point again or b) because you find a famous ufologists' problems with a straight narrative somewhat unsettling for what it may say about others. >(Of more interest, of course, would be an actual investigation >of his abduction report, but hey, ridicule and dismissal are >much easier, and so much more satisfying.) I'm sure ufologists will be queing up to investigate this case. But will Nick give us the thin skinny? Probably, but only in his next book. >We may anticipate, >with dreary certainty, that the significance of Pope's >reluctance to broadcast his perceived experience will be >inflated and flogged like a dead horse. There's a hell of a lot of 'dreary certainty' in ufology, usually when people are getting near the nub of a case or a person's attitude. Thanks to Dennis for chipping (it's about time ufologists on this list began being a little less apathetic!) in with his point of view, echoing my own: >Meanwhile, Roberts must be one of them there psychosociologists >against which you are so opposed. Git them waggons in a circle Martha, the psychosocioligists is a comin'. Sorry if all this goes over old ground again. We British are like that with _facts_ we like to grip them and worry them until something comes out. This applies also to the 'Sheffield Incident' which EBK has 'rested'. Nothing less than censorship if you ask me! Here we had a 'big' case in progress being openly discussed - pro and con. There was a real chance of a bottom line being reached, and certainly information about the case, reseachers and methods of research being available for all to see. Obviously real ufology is not interesting enough to be seen 'live' on UpDates. I wonder how long the 'abduction' thread will run. Forever, probably because it's non-threatening and ultimately non-provable. I realise many ufologists find the discussion of case methodolgy and of individual personalities a little peturbing. But both those elements are at the _heart_ of this subject and their seams are deep and when mined bring forth great treasure. Bless you anyway Errol for letting us all, whatever our views, waffle on like this. Happy Trails
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 17 Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net> Date: Tue, 16 Feb 99 12:54:46 PST Fwd Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 03:50:36 -0500 Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 21:58:55 -0600 (CST) >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net> >Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net> >>Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >>Date: Mon, 15 Feb 99 13:15:53 PST >>I would love to see some sort of evidence -- _any_ evidence -- >>that somebody could report an encounter with alien visitors >>prior to the UFO era and not meet withering ridicule. The >>turn-of-the-century UFO wave suggests the contrary, in fact. >>The notion that "airships" might be piloted by "Martians" (as >>ETs were assumed to be then) occasioned much hilarity -- and a >>lot of telling of tall tales based on what was presumed to be an >>outlandish absurdity -- in the press of the period. >Like Jean-Luc Rivera (to whom, see my response), you've >concocted a straw man and used it against me. I was never >talking about the popular press and arguing that something >similiar to today's abductions should have shown up there if >abductions were common at the time. Should I put that in >capitals or would you prefer to go back and read my posts again? Dennis, Please don't blame me if you want to respond to something I didn't say, okay? I was replying specifically to your strange assertion that people in the pre-UFO era wouldn't face ridicule if they reported encounters with alien beings. I note with satisfaction that you don't even try to defend that, er, difficult position this time around. Try to can the paranoia, guy, and stop the flailing away at strawmen. None of your long posting (snipped here) tries to address the issue on which I was commenting, and moreover, you ignore an example of a possible early abduction I raise. Meantime, if you can cease and desist from huffing, puffing, and self-righteous posturing for a moment, my friend, allow me to tell you that I have thought of, and written on, many of the same matters you raise. Go to The UFO Encyclopedia, 2nd Edition, and read what I have to say about the problems with evidence for a pre-1960s abduction phenomenon. Of course, if you need to tell me what I already I know, I guess there's no way I can stop you. A small word of warning, however: I may fall asleep midway through your post. Jerry Clark
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 17 Re: Riddle of the Skies - Part 3 From: Jeremy Anderson <Jerry@uforesearch.freeserve.co.uk> Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 18:25:21 -0000 Fwd Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 03:56:33 -0500 Subject: Re: Riddle of the Skies - Part 3 >Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 10:31:01 +0000 >From: Neil Morris <Neil@adm1.ph.man.ac.uk> >To: UFO Updates List <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: Riddle of the Skies - Part 3 >All, >I'd just like to comment on part of the David Spoor video >footage seen in the 3rd part of Riddle of the Skies which aired >here in the UK last night (Mon 15th Feb). >My comments are aimed at the "night footage" where Mr Spoor shot >a segment of video from out the front of his house of an >"object" hovering not too far away down the street and which >then speeds away off to the left and out of shot, it's quite a >spectacular piece of video, as the object doesn't seem to exhibit >any acceleration when it moves off, it seems to change from >stationary to "cruise speed" from one frame to the next, most >odd. >But that's not the item I would like to make comment about, >interesting though it is. This segment of video was examined and >commented on by a commercial company specialising in photo >analysis, I don't have the name to hand without trawling >through the tape but he came up with the comment that he thought >the tape as supplied had been copied "from a TV screen" and as >such wasn't a 1st generation copy and so was unable to make a >judgement. >Looking at the tape I find this curious, IF Mr Spoor had >copied the footage by "shooting a TV screen" using std >"domestic" VCR and camera I would have expected just a smidgen >of "frame float" on the resultant tape, as there would be no >"lock" between the VCR sync and the camera sync. Broadcasters >and AV outfits use a system called "Genlock" which uses a master >sync generator so that ALL the equipment locks together, this >gives a solid frame lock when you switch to, or feed from, any >video source in the system. Now to my eyes the piece of video >"seemed" rock solid sync-wise, which to me infers the equipment >used, _if_ it had been copied in that manner was a "little" more >sophisticated than your common or garden domestic camcorder and >VCR. The piece of film certainly looked as though it were in sync. A few years ago, when I only had access to ONE video recorder, enhancement of an object on video was simply filmed from a TV screen directly onto video camera, and then, back onto video....a labourious process to say the least! However, I soon found that by altering the angle of the video camera, I could match up the picture so there was absolutely no flickering between the resolution etc. This was trial and error, but can be done....even by an unskilled photographer. > >A few alternatives spring to mind, either Mr Spoor has >connections with professional equipment which opens up the >avenue to a hoax, or the guy giving the analysis got it wrong >and the video was not copied as he thought, or from the way he >seemed to be trying to talk his way out of giving ANY opinion, >it was total "verbiage". >???Has anyone got this footage, I would like a close look??. >I also found it interesting that there WERE witnesses to at >least some of the sightings he taped. Unfortunately, Mr. Spoor didn't come over too well on the argument regarding the 'suspicious' footage. It would have been in his best interests to have declared the tape had been filmed via a video camera via a TV, instead of staying quiet. Surely he couldn't have been so naive as to think that a video 'expert' wouldn't spot it! This, once again, shows some potentially mind-blowing footage to be nothing but a probable hoax. When will people learn? Mr. Spoor has only himself to blame. The authenticity of the footage he has offered in the past, has now been put in jeopardy, simply because he didn't declare that the film was a copy! A hard lesson to learn, but one that definitely should have occurred to him Jerry Anderson UFOMEK
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 17 Dutch Motorist Says UFO Disabled His Opel Car From: Jeroen Kumeling <ufonet@xs4all.nl> Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 19:56:38 +0100 Fwd Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 03:59:26 -0500 Subject: Dutch Motorist Says UFO Disabled His Opel Car This is a message to Joost van F from Zaandam: Will you contact us? Jeroen Kumeling UFO-Werkgroep Nederland email: ufonet@xs4all.nl PO BOX: 2191 7500 CD Enschede-NL UFO-Hotline: 053-4310412 DUTCH MOTORIST SAYS UFO DISABLED HIS OPEL CAR One night in August 1998, at 1 a.m., Joost van F. decided to let his dog go for a moonlight run in T. Wiske nature park, near Zaandam, a suburb 10 kilometers (6 miles) north of Amsterdam, capital of the Netherlands.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 17 Re: Riddle of the Skies - Part 3 From: Tony Spurrier <TSpurrier@compuserve.com> Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 14:14:30 -0500 Fwd Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 04:01:23 -0500 Subject: Re: Riddle of the Skies - Part 3 >Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 10:31:01 +0000 >From: Neil Morris <Neil@adm1.ph.man.ac.uk> >To: Ufo Updates List <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: Riddle of the Skies - Part 3 >Now to my eyes the piece of video "seemed" rock solid sync-wise, >which to me infers the equipement used, _if_ it had been copied in that >manner was a "little" more sophisticated than your common or garden >domestic camcorder and VCR. David's VCR is pretty standard but he has a little more than just a domestic camcorder. I haven't got the exact specification but it cost somewhere in the region of 2 thousand pounds, just like the average house husband owns <g>. >???Has anyone got this footage, I would like a close look??. As far as I'm aware copies of the footage are few and far between, have you got David's contact details? if not I can give them to you. >I also found it interesting that there WERE witnesses to at least >some of the sightings he taped.< We found that odd, we couldn't remember Jean saying that she'd witnessed the triangle, but we may be wrong. Tony
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 17 Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net> Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 14:23:27 -0800 Fwd Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 04:04:32 -0500 Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality Dear Jerry and list: >To: "UFO UpDates - Toronto" <updates@globalserve.net> >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net> >Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >Date: Tue, 16 Feb 99 10:37:38 PST >Dennis's "bloody Englishman" is the left-wing singer-songwriter >Billy Bragg. In the spring of 1995, Woody Guthrie's daughter >Nora (Woody himself died in 1967 after being bedridden with >Huntington's Chorea since the early 1950s) approached Bragg and >asked if he'd be interested in setting music to lyrics her >father had written but never turned into songs. The result was >the 1998 CD Mermaid Avenue (Elektra), on which Bragg and the >American alternative-country band Wilco put new melodies to >Guthrie's words. <snip> Well, that more than explains why I never heard of it! I don't follow the folk music genre closely, but I like one old Woody Guthrie tune in particular. It would be nice to know the lyrics. . Thank you for your detailed response. Best wishes - Larry Hatch
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 17 Re: Odd Early Morning Sky Glows in Pennsylvania From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 17:31:36 -0500 Fwd Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 04:11:35 -0500 Subject: Re: Odd Early Morning Sky Glows in Pennsylvania >From: Greg St Pierre <StrmNut@aol.com> >Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 21:16:05 EST >To: updates@globalserve.net >Subject: Re: Odd Early Morning Sky Glows in Pennsylvania >>From: Brian Straight <brians@mdbs.com> >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >>Subject: Re: Odd Early Morning Sky Glows in Pennsylvania >>Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 09:06:41 -0500 >>I would hazard that this is undoubtedly auroral in nature. I >>have seen aurora that look very like a sunrise or sunset, >>especially in the more southerly latitudes. We are approaching a >>time of maximum sunspot activity, with a concomitant increase in >>aurora visible from lower latitudes. Unfortunately, I don't have >>activity reports for the day you mentioned to hand, but I could >>research them if you like. >Hey Brian, >I agree, sounds like aurora BUT...... >At the slight inclination at which the light was visible, one >would think folks a few states to the north would have seen it >directly overhead. In other words, the Pennsylvanian's light >"over there" would have to be someone else's "straight up". So, >why no reports? Was the weather clear to the north that night? >On a related note, I was watching TV one night during increased >solar activity. The screen suddenly started to scramble, and the >audio (Letterman) was suddenly replaced by "......and we seem to >be getting some auroral interference here too......." in a very >casual voice. I was eavesdropping somehow on some TV control >room conversation. It was a little surreal. I ran outside to to >find a remarkable sight. A white band of light was almost >overhead, and stretched northeast to northwest. >From the >northern horizon came flashes or waves of rapidly moving light, >which would end at the overhead band of light. The effect was >very similar to that in a dying flourescent light, a sort of >pulsing motion. I realized that for the moment, I could SEE the >solar winds slamming into, and being channeled by, the earth's >magnetic field. Over the next hour, the band receded north, to >be replaced by a fan-shaped display, like crepuscular rays from >the horizon. >Auroras are cool. >Greg Hi Greg, Just to chip in two cents, 'somebody' could also be conducting 'high atmosphere' testing of some kind. I believe during certain types of tests they may release certain gases high in the atmosphere that are capable of glowing in bright (and visible from the surface on a clear night) colors after release. _I'm not sure_ but "I think" certain types of weather tests and tests for atmospheric composition work that way. It could also be the results of that infernal 'contraption' the geniuses who run my wonderful government set up in Alaska called, 'H.A.A.R.P' Those Insane bastards built that monstrosity (and very real global threat to us all) with the intentions of actually using it. Congress didn't approve all those million$ for nuttin' honey! <G> If they are bouncing high intensity energy/radiation off the stratosphere, I wouldn't be at all surprised if the effects would be visible as far south as Pennsylvania. They would, probably, never publicly announce or confirm such a test if it was in fact they who were responsible. God help us all if those monkey-boys punch a hole (if that is possible) in 'our' protective stratosphere. Please excuse the digression, enough rant! <G> I just wanted to offer up one or two other viable candidates. Peace, John Velez ________________________________________________ jvif@spacelab.net INTRUDERS FOUNDATION/ABDUCTION INFORMATION CENTER http://www.if-aic.com "Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind." ________________________________________________
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 17 Re: Abductions and Researcher Bias From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 17:53:19 -0500 Fwd Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 04:19:17 -0500 Subject: Re: Abductions and Researcher Bias >From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: Re: Abductions and Researcher Bias >Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 23:30:31 -0500 >>From: Joseph Polanik <jpolanik@mindspring.com> >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >>Subject: Re: Abductions and Researcher Bias >>Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 20:54:54 GMT >>>>"Why Does every Abduction Researcher always find his own >>>>Favorite Breed of Alien?" >>>>by >>>>Martin Kottmeyer >>>The subtitle is a sad exaggeration. I've seen abductees who work >>>with Budd Hopkins form every possible view of the abduction >>>phenomenon. Quite a few are willing to entertain friendly >>>thoughts about their abductors, even though Budd doesn't think >>>that way. >>Isn't that precisely the problem. >Huh? <reluctant snip> Greg, you're the "big brother" I never had! <G> You take on all comers with such sanity, intelligence and grace that it puts everyone else to shame. We abductees are just 'too close to it' to be able to participate in the debate/discussion in any truly balanced way. It is after all 'happening to us' and our feelings can't help but get involved to one degree or another. You on the other hand, have a sobriety/sanity and reasonableness that is _absolutely_ necessary if any kind of intelligent discussion is going to bear fruit in the end. I guess I'm writing this to say; don't get frustrated or let yourself run out of gas dude. We _all_ need your strong rational voice. Now get back out there, kick ass, and take names later! :-D My hero! If I only had de woids meself. <VBG> John 'I'll tell my big brother' Velez ________________________________________________ jvif@spacelab.net INTRUDERS FOUNDATION/ABDUCTION INFORMATION CENTER http://www.if-aic.com "Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind." ________________________________________________
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 17 Re: Robert Todd On MJ-12 From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net> Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 19:11:05 -0400 Fwd Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 04:27:14 -0500 Subject: Re: Robert Todd On MJ-12 >From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com> >Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 20:24:29 EST >To: updates@globalserve.net >Subject: Re: Robert Todd On MJ-12 >>From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net> >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >>Subject: Re: Robert Todd On MJ-12 >>Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 08:32:45 -0400 ><snip> >>I certainly appreciate the calm tone of Kevin's posting. >Thank you, Stan. ><snip> >>Bob Wood's document examiner, Mr. Black, has already >>professionally stated that the TF memo typeface is appropriate >>for the time frame . That will be published shortly if it hasn't >>been already. >Did he use a complete strike up of the various typefaces as did >the questioned document examiner that you contacted? Black hasn't published it yet. But certainly the document examiner that I talked to did not tell me that he had done a report of any kind. He did express an opinion. Is this published somewhere? Do you have a copy? >>Nobody seems to be mentioning that it was Tim Good in the UK >>that first published the EBD. >This could be because Barry Greenwood established that Good had >received his copies of the EBD from a "CIA" source who turned >out to be Moore. Greenwood did a devastating expose of how he >was able to prove that that Good's copy came from Moore. I even >talked about it in A History of UFO Crashes. (Hey, everyone else >is mentioning their books, so I thought I would join in.) My recollection is that Good's copy was shown not to be from Moore. As a matter of fact it makes little sense that it would have since Good published before Moore published portions of a few pages. I might add that the copies I have distributed have all been clean copies. I even proovided FUFOR with their first clean copy. >>Bill Moore was indeed given to playing games. That is a far cry >>from him and Jaime being professional document forgers. >No one said they were professionals. And didn't Moore basically >admit that he had "retyped" the Aquarius Telex, added the >headings in a cut and paste job, and then admit that the MJ-12 >reference wasn't there in the first place? ><snip> >>I have been told that forgers are normally very very careful to >>do nothing that calls their work into question. That is >>certainly not the case here. with the unusual Classification, >>traceable paper etc Kevin is aware that I have dealt at length >>with his objections to the MJ-12 documents in my 37 page, l994, >>paper "Operation Majestic 12? YES!". I am pleased that at least >>I am not being named as a forger. Even Phil Klass hasn't gone >>that far. >Certainly aware of the paper but don't buy the arguments. >>While most on this list are probably aware that Kevin and I have >>had strong differences, they may not be as aware that the >>communicatons between Kevin and Don Schmitt and Bill and Jaime >>were as I recall much stronger. >Please leave me out of that. Schmitt was the one allegedly in >contact with Moore and Shandera. As far as I know, I have never >spoken to Bill Moore and met Shandera once, in Roswell, in 1997 >and we didn't talk about MJ-12 or anything like that. He was >busy trying to convince me that J. Bond Johnson hadn't said that >Ramey told him, Johnson, that the debris was from a balloon. I >didn't buy that argument either. Obviously we have different views of the history of this discussion. Unfortunately I recall that in History of UFO Crashes on page 1, it was claimed that your article in the UFO Encyclopedia had dismissed Roswell.. However, Roswell is nowhere mentioned in that Encyclopedia' I am off to Istanbul until next week. Stan Friedman
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 17 Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 18:23:45 -0500 Fwd Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 04:39:07 -0500 Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 21:58:55 -0600 (CST) >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net> >Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net> >>Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >>Date: Mon, 15 Feb 99 13:15:53 PST >>Dennis, >>With all due respect, the statements above are based on nothing >>at all, except a desire to advance a point of view you find >>congenial. >Jerry, >Let's assume I'm 100% wrong and you're 100% right, which I'm >sure is the way you would prefer it, anyway. Unfortunately, my >corollary (see below) would still stand. <snip> >So I repeat: if the distress levels reported today, and >particularly the concern voiced over children, have been with us >since the turn of the century, then I would expect to see _some_ >evidence of same in the voluminous existing psychiatric, >psychological, parapsychological, and pediatric literature. >After all, Hale's elf made it into a scientific biography. Hi Dennis, Just jumping in for a sec. You raise a valid point and a good question. I'm not defending the argument that abductions have been going on for X number of years, I have no way to know how long it's been going on. But _if_ abductions began say at the turn of the century, there would be a gradual spread that may take years to reach a point of saturation in the general population large enough (to have it reported often enough) to make publications of any kind. You are also not taking into consideration the very human fact that most folks would rather keep their mouths shut than be thought of as crazy, strange, or different. Not to mention the real possibility of being committed to a mental institution in those times! A search of old psychiatric records from mental institutions might prove a rich source of the very material you are speaking of. I wonder _how_many_ were committed over the years because they were "suffering from the delusion" that they were being visited/counselled/taken by "elves" or "dwarfs." Or how many of those "delusions" contained elements involving lights, or operating rooms, or any of the other abduction "regulars." I bet it would be a fruitful study. The whole Mormon religion is based on such an "abduction/visitation-like" account. Glowing beings travelling on beams of light, the works. That was 1825! I don't know, you make a really good point. I just think that either of the above would have a powerful effect on the number of "reports" that would have actually surfaced in the past. I'm not calling you wrong Sasquatch, only saying that it isn't quite as cut and dry as you're painting it. Maybe it _is_ there, only you're looking for it in the wrong places! <G> I'm outta here. Carry on gents. Regards, John Velez, Rooting for the truth ________________________________________________ jvif@spacelab.net INTRUDERS FOUNDATION/ABDUCTION INFORMATION CENTER http://www.if-aic.com "Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind." ________________________________________________
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 17 Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality From: Leanne Martin <leanne_martin@hotmail.com> Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 17:51:04 PST Fwd Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 04:52:03 -0500 Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 13:00:06 -0800 >From: judithdale <judithdale@earthlink.net> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >Hi Leanne and list, >You know, I thought about getting a new clock, never did. Still >have the same one. Works great. Even has a battery backup in >case the power goes off. At least my automatic coffee maker >worked right both times I went journeying with those folks. >Shoot, if they'd stuck around, I could've been the proper >hostess and offered them a cup ;-) >Shalom, >>Judith Hi again Judith, Emily Post would be please . . . :-) Out of curiosity - was there anything else electrical in the room that was possibly effected? For example: Battery operated wristwatches; Personal computer built-in real-time clock; Electric blanket; Programmable air conditioner; Electronic organizer in your pocketbook (or what of your partner's) [organizer that is, not pocket book]. Regards,
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 17 Re: The Saucer Song [was: Abduction - The Issue Of From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net> Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 20:12:11 -0600 (CST) Fwd Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 05:20:39 -0500 Subject: Re: The Saucer Song [was: Abduction - The Issue Of >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net> >Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >Date: Tue, 16 Feb 99 10:37:38 PST >Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 16:12:35 -0800 >From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >Larry, >Dennis's "bloody Englishman" is the left-wing singer-songwriter >Billy Bragg. In the spring of 1995, Woody Guthrie's daughter >Nora (Woody himself died in 1967 after being bedridden with >Huntington's Chorea since the early 1950s) approached Bragg and >asked if he'd be interested in setting music to lyrics her >father had written but never turned into songs. The result was >the 1998 CD Mermaid Avenue (Elektra), on which Bragg and the >American alternative-country band Wilco put new melodies to >Guthrie's words. >Interviewed on National Public Radio, Bragg said he and Wilco >had recorded some 40 songs, only 15 of which appear on the CD. >One of the unreleased numbers was a light-hearted song about >flying saucers. As I recall, Bragg either mentioned it only in >passing or (less likely) played a short extract from it. If the >latter, I think I -- as a ufologist as well as a songwriter with >a longtime interest in the folk- music movement -- would have >remembered it. Larry, Jerry: Actually, they played the song and mentioned the fact that it wasn't on the CD. Billy Bragg did it in the studio, during the interview. Jerry, I sent you the following email on 7-2-98: "Jerry: Talk of the Nation, I believe it was, had on a British singer yesterday, Billy Bragg, who sang a flying saucer song written by Guthrie in about 1950. I wasn't quite prepared, so I didn't have pen and paper exactly handy. About all I can remember is My flying saucer Where can you be? [...] Come back tonight Love and kiss my tears away. Dennis" I'm pretty sure, in retrospect, that the program was Fresh Air with Terry Gross, and not Talk of the Nation. Presumably, anyone should be able to order a copy of that particular program by visiting the National Public Radio web page and doing a little searching. It would have aired in late June or early July of 1998. >Guthrie habitually wrote songs out of the daily newspaper. >Perhaps the most famous of his newspaper-inspired songs is >"Philadelphia Lawyer," among the few of his compositions to >become a country hit (originally by the Maddox Brothers and Rose >and since covered by many others). The saucer song was no doubt >written with a press account of the new craze/mystery at hand. >Jerry Clark Probably the case here. But it's not a bad song at all. I suspect the light and airy Billy Bragg treatment probably owes something to the Byrds's "Hey, Mr. Spaceman!" Dennis PS: Jerry, you gotta watch that memory. It's tricky stuff!
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 17 An Out of Body Contact with a Grey? From: Joseph Poloniak <jpolanik@mindspring.com> Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 21:38:53 -0500 (EST) Fwd Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 05:24:28 -0500 Subject: An Out of Body Contact with a Grey? Waldo Vieria is a Brazilian doctor who has experienced OBEs, Out of Body Experiences, since the age of 6. He is now about 70. In 'Projections of the Consciousness', he describes many of his OBEs. In one of them he found himself in a strange city. His account continues: A faint yellowish light permeated the whole city. It seemed like the scenery was permanently immersed in an eternal gloom. I was not able to locate any planets or stars in the grayish sky. As they passed me, a group of friendly-looking extrphysical consciousnesses warned: "Beware of robbers." Within moments a consciousness having a human form with animal-like features, incapable of hiding the evil, dark nature of its psychosoma, lunged at me with all its might in a sudden extraphysical attack. It was frenetically trying to drain all the life force from me like a vampire or energetic leach. I seemed as though it would have inhaled me whole, if it could. I tried to free myself from it by emitting energy of peace with all my might. Surprisingly, the extraphysical consciousness backed away as if it had received an electric shock, and disappeared as quickly as it had appeared. Do you think he might have encountered a grey, or something similar? {*}.{*}:{*}^{*}:{*}.{*}.{*}:{*}^{*}:{*}.{*} Joseph Polanik, jpolanik@mindspring.com Trionic Research Institute, http://www.trionica.com
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 17 Upcoming UFO Shows on TV - North America From: David Pengilly - UFO*BC <david_pengilly@dccnet.com> Date: 16 Feb 1999 19:10:58 -0800 Fwd Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 06:01:04 -0500 Subject: Upcoming UFO Shows on TV - North America We, at UFO*BC thought you might like to know about some of the interesting UFO shows that will be airing soon. 1) Whitley Strieber and NBC present a two hour examination of the UFO phenomenon. For details visit the following website: http://www.confirmation.net/confirmationnet.html - Feb 17: "Confirmation: The Hard Evidence of Aliens Among Us" 2) "Alien Invasion Week" on TLC. Feb 28 - March 4, 1999 [8 p.m.-11 p.m. (ET) and 11 p.m. - 2 a.m. (ET)] Most of the shows are North American Premieres For details visit the following website: http://www.discovery.com/sched/domestic/maps/990228tlc.html - Feb 28: UFOs Uncovered: Out Of This World - Feb 28: UFOs Uncovered: Dark Secret - Feb 28: UFOs Uncovered: Are Aliens Here? - March 1: ET Encounter - March 1: The Uninvited - March 2: Searching For UFOs - March 4: UFOs: 50 Years of Denial *********************************************************** If you do not want to receive these updates, please reply with your e-mail address and I will gladly remove your name from the list. Thank you. Dave Pengilly dave@ufobc.org
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 17 Upcoming UFO Shows on TV - Details From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 06:08:34 -0500 Fwd Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 06:08:34 -0500 Subject: Upcoming UFO Shows on TV - Details Feb 17: 'Confirmation: The Hard Evidence of Aliens Among Us' [Tonight - 8:00pm NBC/ONtv - 2 Hours] Source: http://strieber.com/ Whitley Strieber's 'The Communion Homepage' 01/18/99 - Confirmation Special To Air Feb. 17 The two-hour Confirmation Special will appear on NBC on Wednesday, February 17. Check your local listings for time. Produced by Mark Wolper and Whitley Strieber, the special searches for hard evidence of the unknown, centered around the issues raised in Whitley Strieber's book Confirmation. Examining such mysteries as unexplained objects in NASA Space Shuttle footage, never before revealed UFO sightings and explosive new information about implants, the special strives to offer an even-handed view. It gives skeptics and believers equal time to state their cases, and is frank about possible hoaxes. Taking its cue from Strieber's often-stated admonition that "we have to keep the questions open," the special nevertheless comes up with startling new evidence that some very real mysteries are out there waiting to be solved. Dr. Roger Leir's implant team removes an object on-camera, which is then placed under laboratory analysis, with results that suggest in the strongest terms that it is unwise for authorities to continue to ignore the implant issue. Visit the Confirmation website for more! http://www.confirmation.net/ ________________________________________________________________ Source: TLC's 'Adventures For Your Mind' Site http://www.discovery.com/sched/domestic/maps/990228tlc.html UFOs Uncovered: Out Of This World North American Premiere: February 28, 8 p.m.-9 p.m. ET Scientists and government officials agree on one thing: There is absolutely no evidence to suggest that UFOs exist. However, they also agree that there is no irrefutable, scientific proof that Earth hasn't been visited by extraterrestrials. Astronomer Dr. Seth Shostak, who has spent his career searching for ET�s for SETI (Search for Extra Terrestrial Intelligence), lays out the scientific facts about the possibilities and probabilities of extraterrestrial life. Investigate unexplained incidents within the U.S. space program and Russian space program where astronauts report seeing unidentified flying objects near their spacecraft only to be met with silence from ground control. Dan Goldin, Director of NASA, describes the agency's position on extraterrestrial life as well as UFOs. Story Musgrave, NASA�s most traveled astronaut, describes why he�s convinced that extraterrestrials exist. UFOs Uncovered: Dark Secret North American Premiere: February 28, 9 p.m.-10 p.m. ET Investigate incidents of UFO sightings by airplane pilots around the world. Reports include monitoring an unidentified flying object on radar, as well as actual visuals of UFO. Air traffic controllers confirm blips of unidentified flying objects moving at extraordinarily high speeds and even NORAD, the North American Defense network, has monitored such events. Professor Leon Brenig of Brussels University and physics professor August Meesen of the University of Leuven in Belgium have studied this phenomenon and reveal their findings. The Chilean government has declared that UFOs are real; a recently declassified Canadian government memorandum states, "Flying Saucers exist ... the matter is the most highly classified subject in the United States Government, rating higher even than the H-bomb." From Project Blue Book to the highly sensationalized Area 51 in Roswell, New Mexico, profile the United States� interest in UFOs and subsequent stonewalling of public inquiries. John Pike of the Federation of American Scientists, an organization dedicated to investigating the military's "Black Budget," suggests that the government and the military may be recycling lessons from America�s early atom bomb program. Namely, if you want to keep a weapon secret and you don�t need it operationally, hide it, test it and deny it�s existence utterly. UFOs Uncovered: Are Aliens Here? North American Premiere: February 28, 10 p.m.-11 p.m. ET The possibility of life beyond Earth hinges on one fact: the immense size of the universe. Dr. Frank Drake of the SETI Institute describes his mathematical equation that postulates that there are over a billion civilizations living in the universe. Examine physical evidence of alleged UFO landings and crashes around the world and discover whether they stand-up to scientific scrutiny. Investigate historic illustrations of flying objects including those found in a 12th Century Georgian church and in an illustrated version of the bible. Examine historically documented ET events from Nuremburg in 1561 to an event in Fatima, Portugal, in 1917 that was officially pronounced by the Catholic Church to be a miracle. Meet scientists like Jesco Von Puttkamer of NASA who apply scientific reasoning to discount extraterrestrial UFO sightings. Von Puttkamer explains that bright planets and other natural phenomena are often mistaken for UFOs. Finally, go to the SETI Institute where Dr. Seth Shostak and his colleagues use their powerful radio telescope to scan the heavens and seek the elusive signal that will provide conclusive scientific evidence that we are not alone. ET Encounter North American Premiere: March 1, 9 p.m.-10 p.m. ET In 1996, more than 60 witnesses attested to strange creatures being captured in Varginha, Brazil. Talk to the principal investigators who recorded startling testimony from eyewitnesses. Visit the sites where the creatures were allegedly spotted and hear eyewitness accounts before learning the official explanation from the military and fire brigade. Puerto Rico has also been a site of reported contact with strange beings in recent years. Many people have reputedly suffered the loss of hundreds of goats, chickens, rabbits and domestic dogs -- all were mutilated with signature puncture marks in the neck. Can this mutilation be attributed to a pack of wild dogs or is it a mere publicity stunt? Or is this the work of a creature nicknamed the "Chupacabras," the goat-sucker, by the locals? Speak to officials at Puerto Rico's Department of Agriculture Services who discount rumors of this mysterious creature. Then, talk with police officers, farmers and civil defense officers who say the Chupacabras is more than a myth. The Uninvited North American Premiere: March 1, 10 p.m.-11 p.m. ET Investigate famous alleged abductions in the United States and the United Kingdom. Meet people that claim they've been abducted as they explain their harrowing captures in chilling detail. Scientists comment on the recurring themes told by alleged abductee's around the world and offer several definitions of an alien abduction from a psychological experience to inter-dimensional phenomena. Meet scientists from Harvard and MIT who not only believe that alien abductions have occurred, but that they are regular occurrences. Investigate the abduction of author Whitley Strieber whose account was produced into the motion picture Communion, starring Christopher Walken and the abduction of a person whose experience was featured in the motion picture Fire In The Sky. Searching For UFOs North American Premiere: March 2, 9 p.m.-10 p.m. ET Alleged abductee's from all walks of life share a similar experience: a powerful light pulling them in, followed by the appearance of short creatures with large, dark oval-shaped eyes. Revealing this experience isolates abductee's from society and remains a stigma for the rest of their lives. Meet alleged abductee's and ufologists who are working to discover the reason behind alien abductions and to shed light on these mysterious events in order to give abductee�s peace of mind. UFOs: 50 Years of Denial North American Premiere: March 4, 9 p.m.-10 p.m. ET Do UFOs really exist? Conspiracy theorists have speculated about the government�s involvement in UFO intelligence and research. Some people think the government is trying to cover up the existence of both aliens and UFOs, hide official reports from the public, and suppress information on sightings that cannot easily be explained. Eyewitness accounts, personal testimony of high-ranking government officials, and government reports contain substantial evidence pointing to the existence of UFOs. Are the theorists right? There is another theory: The government is testing new flight technology and covering up public sightings with UFO propaganda in the interest of national security. ----- ebk
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 17 Re: On Ed Fouche Speaking at MUFON L.A. Meeting From: Diana Botsford <diana_botsford@hotmail.com> Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 20:09:40 PST Fwd Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 06:20:48 -0500 Subject: Re: On Ed Fouche Speaking at MUFON L.A. Meeting >Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 01:03:00 -0800 >From: Josh Goldstein <clearlt@pacbell.net> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: On Ed Fouch=E9 Speaking at MUFON L.A. Meeting >Hi Everyone, <snip> >I am interested if anyone outside of the Fouch has investigated >if there is any truth to his classified background, especially >his claim of having worked in Area 51. I'm a follower of the >"extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof" standard. I >can find nothing on UFO Mind where anyone investigated his >claimed background. Mr. Fouche's wife Rebecca, not sister, was the one who "defended" him in recent posts on UFO UpDates. She works as editor for a great deal of his material and is actually quite intelligent in her own right. As far as Fouche's claims, prior to having him on our webshow as a guest, we requested a copy of his discharge papers from the Air Force. I then had several independent military consultants review the papers for authenticity. They checked out. Although I am not of the same opinions as Fouche regarding triangular aircraft (my judge and jury are still out), I have found him to be honest and forthcoming of the gaps in his knowledge. I respect that tremendously at a time where everyone is attempting to be an expert. If interested, you can listen to his audio interview on our site at: http://communities.msn.com/ufo/archives.asp Jeff Rense - host of Sightings on the Radio - has also interviewed Mr. Fouche and his archives are available at http://www.sightings.com In the end, we all need to make our own decisions. Material and data supplied by individuals like Mr. Fouche is worthy of consideration but can not on its own sway or convince any of us in any direction. And I'm sure he'd agree with that. Diana Botsford Publisher/Community Manager UFO Community on MSN http://communities.msn.com/ufo - - - - - - "To follow knowledge like a sinking star, Beyond the utmost bound of human thought . . To strive, to seek, to find and not to yield." Tennyson's Ulysses
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 17 MSNBC's 'Hockenberry' Last Night From: Greg St. Pierre <StrmNut@aol.com> Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 23:53:54 EST Fwd Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 06:30:25 -0500 Subject: MSNBC's 'Hockenberry' Last Night Dear list, Just finished watching the Hockenberry Show on MSNBC. I was caught completely by surprise when the last half-hour of what is a routinely political talk show was devoted entirely to the subject of alien abductions, in anticipation of Wednesday's "Confirmation" show. Hockenberry started out with the typical sneery face and cute comments, but quickly graduated to a more serious posture, and even managed to ask reasonable straightforward (if routine) questions about the subject. What really struck me about this was the panel. Budd Hopkins, John Mack, Whitley Strieber, and Joe Nickell of The Skeptical Inquirer. That's three to one right off the bat, and I knew skepticism was going to take a few hits on this one. Indeed, all three pro-abduction guests did a superb job of keeping the conversation focused on the aspects of the phenomenon that merit the most attention, such as implants, physical effects to the environment in the vicinity of an abduction, multiple person abductions, scars, ect. On the few occasions that Joe got a word in edgewise, he rambled about waking dreams, which looked rather silly when countered with the aformentioned physical evidence. In short, he got beaten up. It wasn't a particularly fair segment, but as we say in these parts: TFB! Greg
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 17 Re: Abductions and Researcher Bias From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net> Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 23:03:22 -0600 (CST) Fwd Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 06:37:49 -0500 Subject: Re: Abductions and Researcher Bias >From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: Re: Abductions and Researcher Bias >Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 23:30:31 -0500 <snip> >This is one aspect of ufology that's beginning to irk me, >bigtime. I engage in delightful, even thought-provoking volleys >with Dennis Stacy. One of the thoughts provoked in me is that >neither of us is really qualified to render an opinion on alleged >media influence on abductions, because neither of us is a social >scientist, and because we're not basing our views on serious >studies by social scientists. Greg, I agree with you completely! Now I assume Hopkins, Jacobs, Mack and Clark are lining up behind me to do likewise. On this we do agree: not enough social scientists have punched enough time cards when it comes to the UFO (and abduction) question. Will we necessarily like it anymore when they do? Probably not, if "The Gods Have Landed: New Religions From Other Worlds" (State University of New York Press, 1995, James R. Lewis, editor) is any indication. As Clark has rightfully pointed out elsewhere (I leave it up to him to provide the citation), it's pretty depressing when PhDs can't even read the literature and get the fundamental basics right. So maybe we should continue our amateur 'socializing', after all. Think of it as holding the Fort (pun intended). And don't forget: this is e-mail, not a tennis match. You don't have to chase after every volley. <snip> >If you're going to present one side of a question, state that >it's one side, and give some of the arguments against it. If >you're going to cite or quote a published article, don't present >it as if it offered the last word on whatever it says, if in fact >it's part of a lively debate. Give some of the context, some of >the background from which it emerges, some of the opposing views >it's evoked, or will evoke. I'm sure I've failed to do this in >the past, and will try to mend my ways. I hope I have some >company. I will if Jerry will! >End of rant. I'll only add, getting back to the subject at hand, >that there's an additional problem in assembling a sample >population of experiencers. People tell all kinds of abduction >stories -- from modest ones to real whoppers. Some abductees tell >you simply what they think has happened to them, without drawing >many conclusions. Others tell you how many alien races they've >met, and what the intentions of each of them might be. Yes -- and why is this? And who knows and determines what the whoppers are? <snip> >Budd encourages the latter, and discourages the former, thus >creating a climate where people can talk about the one thing they >can be sure about, which is how they feel about what they believe >happened to them. This -- I'm sure many on this list will have >trouble believing what I'm about to say, and again I can't blame >them -- creates a climate of something very near rationality, as >opposed to the wild speculation and stew of unrelated stories you >get when you indulge everyone's least grounded opinions and >alleged reminiscences (which is what Whitley Strieber did, for >instance, in "The Communion Letters"). Again, as far as The Communion Letters are concerned, I couldn't agree with you more. Unfortunately (along with Mack's mailbag), they raise the perennial issue: just where _is_ the cut-off between the modest abduction accounts and the wilder ones, and who determines which is which, and how? <snip> >It's also why anyone who thought abductions represented some kind >of real phenomenon -- whether an actual abduction by aliens, or >some up to now unknown psychological syndrome -- might >responsibly work with Budd's inevitably skewed sample. If you're >trying to find out, by extensive conversation with abductees, >what lies behind this phenomenon, who would be more helpful to >talk to? Those who speak modestly about themselves, and seem >grounded, or those who seem ready to believe almost anything? Well, uh, er, yes, except for the obvious objections, which see the above. What you seem to be saying here is that Budd's more modest abductees are the real abductees whereas the "wilder" ones, by definition, aren't. >(I know there can be other views on this. For instance, if you >believe that the phenomenon is essentially psychosocial, I can >understand why you'd find the craziest reports just as valuable, >datawise, as the most sober.) >Greg Sandow Actually, what I'd really like to know is just what _is_ today's acceptable abduction report, who determines which ones are sober and crazy, and how? If Budd, or anyone else, can figure this out beforehand (doesn't Jacobs claim to have it down to a science?), then howcome the crazies turn up in the support groups at all? What happened to the hidden clues that are supposed to separate the real thing from the false starts? Amateur, non-degreed social scientists like myself would like to know. Dennis
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 17 Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net> Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 23:03:24 -0600 (CST) Fwd Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 06:48:02 -0500 Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >From: Bill Weber <koran@cchat.com> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 16:10:21 -0500 <snip> >Second, I think there is a difference, or should be anyway, >between asking a "researcher" to provide better evidence and >methodology and _blaming_ an abductee for "not moving this >discussion along," (or even inferring they're laughable, stupid, >crazy, or perceptually screwy.) - a kind of blame. The abductees >only part in this was having the experience that he or she can't >explain. As more becomes known, variables change, methods are >adapted, and results are reinterpreted. If abduction has >existed into antiquity, and if we are operating on some sort of >a straight line progression with this, maybe more evidence of a >tangible nature will be gained in the future. Until then, I >guess its the abductee's lot to smile and field those >misdirected and "oh so sincere" questions about crapping in >their pants - and that's a shame. >Sincerely, >Bill Bill, I'm not blaming abductees for anything, least of all the experience they have. And far from my questions about loss of bladder and bowel control being "misdirected" and sarcastically "oh so sincere" (in your words), they're something that I've been thinking about for some time, and which I consider a legitimate issue. Is the abduction experience terrifying enough to occasion same, or isn't? Several abduction researchers have let it be known that they are withholding certain details of the abduction experience as a control mechanism, the better to determine the real thing. I simply asked if the loss of bowel and bladder control (known to occur under moments of stress) might be one of those invariables. There was nothing insincere about it. Or, for that matter, misdirected. It was a simple inquiry, nothing more. I won't dwell on the subject matter if you won't. Dennis
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 17 Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net> Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 03:38:47 -0800 Fwd Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 06:58:10 -0500 Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >From: Leanne Martin <leanne_martin@hotmail.com> >To: updates@globalserve.net >Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 17:51:04 PST >>Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 13:00:06 -0800 >>From: judithdale <judithdale@earthlink.net> >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >>Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >>You know, I thought about getting a new clock, never did. Still >>have the same one. Works great. Even has a battery backup in >>case the power goes off. At least my automatic coffee maker >>worked right both times I went journeying with those folks. >Out of curiosity - was there anything else electrical in the >room that was possibly effected? >For example: >Battery operated wristwatches; >Personal computer built-in real-time clock; >Electric blanket; >Programmable air conditioner; >Electronic organizer in your pocketbook (or what of your >partner's) [organizer that is, not pocket book]. Dear Judith and Leanne: One caution: Most of the electronic devices you mention, and others, have some sort of memory. The clock remembers when to alarm, or do something else. It remembers what time it is now, so it can increment that time each second. Organizers etc. are almost all memory. I'm not talking about simple, dumb electrical appliances like the electric blanket. My point is, that all of these can be 're-set', sent to never-never land or an endless loop by a simple electrical discharge, if it is strong enough. A bolt of lightning will do, or sometimes just the static from a rug. Several devices could go bonkers at the same time, with a perfectly mundane explanation. Just that happened recently at work when we had a rare thunderstorm here. Best wishes - Larry Hatch
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 17 Re: Pope On A Rope From: Roy Hale <roy.hale@virgin.net> Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 01:41:58 -0000 Fwd Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 07:24:32 -0500 Subject: Re: Pope On A Rope Hi, I understand Nick is quite flattered by all the talk of his "Abduction" at the moment. I hear his book circulation has risen considerably. Keep up the the PR lads, you're doing a hell of a job. And to think I started out looking for ET & Co.... Ah well, I suppose humans can be interesting when they want to be. Roy
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 17 'Confirmation' - Congratulations!!!!! From: Stephen G. Bassett <ParadigmRG@aol.com> Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 22:10:21 EST Fwd Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 22:54:26 -0500 Subject: 'Confirmation' - Congratulations!!!!! Congratulations to: Mark Carlotto Jerome Clark Robert Davi Don Ecker John Greenwald Budd Hopkins David Jacobs Jack Kasher Roger Leir Michael Lindemann John Mack Edgar Mitchell Derrel Sims Whitley Strieber Mark Wolper and NBC For initiating, creating and completing a landmark documentary. So many fine documentaries have been made, so much work, all have made a difference. But this work was the right material, with the right presentation at the right time. It will have impact on the media, the public and, most importantly, the politics. This can be the year of disclosure and the beginning of a full partnership between public and government in the most profound event in human history. Whatever the eventual outcomes, our destiny will be in our own hands. Well done, Steve Bassett Paradigm Research Group
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 18 Trumbull County on 'Confirmation' From: Kenny Young <ufo@fuse.net> Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 23:38:23 -0500 Fwd Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 00:21:52 -0500 Subject: Trumbull County on 'Confirmation' This brief note is in response to the 'Confirmation' special and their coverage of the 1994 Trumbull County Disturbance. First, thanks to the 'Confirmation' team for the elaborate and dramatic production. Also, thanks to them for securing interviews with the officers involved. That was an accomplishment. And above all, thanks to these police officers for their courage. What was not addressed in the 'Confirmation' special was the societal factors involved which kept this information from the public for 4-years. The viewer was basically unaware that this affair was mired in secrecy. Although the Trumbull County Disturbance - as a UFO sighting - is interesting as well as credible, a good portion of the actual story is the secrecy engine which forged ahead after the happening. These details even indicate that news media officials in Youngstown, Ohio allowed this story to be denied public consideration. Further, it was stated that 'Confirmation' broke the story for the first time on television. This was a slight inaccuracy, as WXIX FOX-19 News in Cincinnati broke the story of the Trumbull County Disturbance last summer. Astronomer Mr. James E. McGaha was also shown on the segment, given airtime to 'dismiss' the Trumbull County Disturbance. McGaha asserted that 'twinkling stars' were to blame for the event and a simple 'fireball' was responsible for the light reported by Officer Melero. The 'shutdown' of the patrol cruiser, McGaha proclaimed, was sheer coincidence while the fireball was seen overhead. Mr. James E. McGaha, I am sorry sir, but your suggestions were most irrational and inappropriate given the facts of the Trumbull County situation. You did demonstrate a powerful lack of understanding regarding the key data elements of this case. Eliminating this entire affair with an all-encompassing explanation of this nature denies and disregards key detail such as: Officers were responding to CITIZEN ADVISEMENT of a UFO situation. It was not a 'police only' affair. The location of the primary object was triangulated by several units approaching from different directions while corresponding via radio. This could not happen had twinkling stars been a factor. Eyewitness testimony indicates varying descriptive detail given: a blue flaming object, massive light which illuminates the ground, structured object, "parachute-like" appendage spied through binoculars, and a "massive, rotating saucer." These specific comments - using selected terms to describe the visual observation of a low-level object - have been ignored by McGaha. His deletion of key detail is not scientific and should be recognized as such. Note that visual separation is established by officers involved who were able to recognize stars and planets versus the UFOs. Visual separation is also established by the officers, who report jet aircraft later flying in the region. Stars were clearly differentiated between the jet aircraft and UFOs. By appearing before cameras suggesting an explanation so fraudulent provides us with a suspicion that Mr. McGaha's motives were ideological, and not valid scientific concerns. Interestingly, during my interview for the 'Confirmation' special last summer, I soundly refuted McGaha's suggestions before his interview. For reasons I cannot fathom, those refutations were deleted from the piece. Perhaps this deletion was in the interest of 'balance...?' At any rate, it is nice to see this amazing case receive interest and my hats off to the producers and participants. I am thankful to have been involved. Details of this case and the 9-1-1 tapes can be freely heard at the website below. Kenny Young -- UFO Research http://home.fuse.net/ufo/
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 18 STS-48 UFO Debunked? From: Mike Farrell <mikefarr@midcoast.com.au> Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 23:43:28 +1100 Fwd Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 00:22:52 -0500 Subject: STS-48 UFO Debunked? Hello UpDates List, Here's a good reply to the STS-48 Debunked article by James Oberg. See what you think? Ice crystals or spacecraft? __________________________________________ Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 22:15:43 -0600 To: Mike Farrell <mikefarr@midcoast.com.au> From: Gary Hart <geehart@frontiernet.net> Subject: Re: NASA STS-48 UFO Debunked Friends, The charts presented are irrelevant to the discussion of the motion of the objects observed. From the lecture by Dr. Jack Kasher, Univ. of Nebraska: He calculated which thruster was fired out of the forty-eight on the shuttle. The known thrust produced would not change the view attitude noticeably. Five main objects' movements were plotted. the appearance or disappearance of objects was not in question: the sun's angle was irrelevant. The fact that several moving objects _stopped_ for several frames before the "shot from the ground", then reversed direction and zipped away in directions and speeds inconsistent with the thrust plume from the thruster _is_ relevant. All anomalous object angles, sizes and speeds inconsistent with characteristics of objects that would be close to the shuttle. Accelerations for anomalous objects calculated and inconsistent with time thruster fired and energy emitted. Need I go on? Any further comments? Get Dr. Kasher's video and decide for yourself. His calculations tell me more than Oberg's blather. I agree with Dr. Kasher's conclusions. ~Gary _______________________________ Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 09:42:53 EST From: SkeptInq@aol.com Subject: Feb 17 NBC Special on STS-48 Debunked To: CSICOP-ANNOUNCE@LISTSERV.AOL.COM CSICOP Fellow and Space Program expert James Oberg writes to inform us: Subj: Feb 17 NBC Special on STS-48 Debunked Date: 99-02-12 18:14:41 EST From: JamesOberg@aol.com With regard to next week's NBC Strieberfest on UFO evidence, the 1991 space shuttle STS-48 zig-zag UFOs are debunked by newly-obtained NASA records at http://www.igs.net/~hwt/zigzag.html but NBC will still act as if they really might be genuine.... London, British Isles %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 18 Re: Robert Todd On MJ-12 From: John Rimmer <magonia@magonia.demon.co.uk> Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 12:57:33 +0000 Fwd Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 00:28:13 -0500 Subject: Re: Robert Todd On MJ-12 >From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: Re: Robert Todd On MJ-12 >Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 08:32:45 -0400 >I have been told that forgers are normally very very careful to >do nothing that calls their work into question. That is >certainly not the case here. >Stan Friedman Bit of a "heads I win tales you lose" here. If the document seems authentic then obviously it can't be a forgery. But if the document looks questionable it still can't be a forgery because forgers are too clever as to produce questionable documents. Must be those disinformation guys, hey, Stan? -- John Rimmer www.magonia.demon.co.uk Abandon hope all ye who press Enter here
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 18 WWW - QUEST From: Philip Mantle - UFO <pmufo@dial.pipex.com> Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 21:06:53 +0000 Fwd Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 00:33:17 -0500 Subject: WWW - QUEST Dear Colleagues, Many people have shown an interest in possibly seeing a copy of QUEST MAGAZINE. The best I can do for the moment is post you the web site details which feature QUEST and other publications published by Top Events & Publications Ltd. It is: www.topevents.co.uk Many thanks, Philip Mantle.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 18 Re: Abductions and Researcher Bias From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net> Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 08:25:29 -0500 Fwd Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 00:44:33 -0500 Subject: Re: Abductions and Researcher Bias >Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 23:03:22 -0600 (CST) >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net> >Subject: Re: Abductions and Researcher Bias >On this we do agree: not enough social scientists have punched >enough time cards when it comes to the UFO (and abduction) >question. Will we necessarily like it anymore when they do? >Probably not, if "The Gods Have Landed: New Religions From Other >Worlds" (State University of New York Press, 1995, James R. >Lewis, editor) is any indication. As Clark has rightfully >pointed out elsewhere (I leave it up to him to provide the >citation), it's pretty depressing when PhDs can't even read the >literature and get the fundamental basics right. Yep, same with some of the psychologists who've studied abductions. One shining exception is Richard Hall's piece on abductions and mass hysteria, from the MIT proceedings (the one where he compares abductions to established cases of mass hysteria, of which there aren't very many, and demonstrates major differences). However, Hall is, and I don't say this with any disrespected, solidly pro-UFO, so I'd prefer to suspend judgement till I've heard from the other side. Which brings me to something else I could rant about -- forming conclusions after only one paper has been published. Take, for instance, the John Miller paper from the MIT conference about missing fetuses, the one Peter Brookesmith said "demolishes" any idea that abductees get mysteriously pregnant and then lose the babies equally mysteriously. Leaving aside the point that, when you actually read it, it does no such demolishing (at least not in its author's eyes), it, too, is only one paper on what could well be a very complicated subject. One paper, mo matter how apparently thorough, isn't an adequate scientific or scholarly treatment, and I doubt would be accepted as such in any other field. >So maybe we should continue our amateur 'socializing', after >all. Think of it as holding the Fort (pun intended). Good one, Dennis. It's just -- in my view -- that we reach an end to what we can usefully say, without some professional input. >And don't forget: this is e-mail, not a tennis match. You don't >have to chase after every volley. Hmmm....does that mean I also don't have to listen to all the CDs the record companies send me? And I'm not compelled to eat every cookie if someone gives me a batch of them? I don't have to read the New York Times every day? Damn! You're changing my life! >>Budd encourages the latter, and discourages the former, thus >>creating a climate where people can talk about the one thing they can be sure about, which is how they feel about what they >>believe happened to them. This -- I'm sure many on this list >>will have trouble believing what I'm about to say, and again >>I can't blame them -- creates a climate of something very >>near rationality, as opposed to the wild speculation and stew >>of unrelated stories you get when you indulge everyone's least >>grounded opinions and alleged reminiscences (which is what >>Whitley Strieber did, for instance, in "The Communion >>Letters"). >Again, as far as The Communion Letters are concerned, I couldn't >agree with you more. Unfortunately (along with Mack's mailbag), >they raise the perennial issue: just where _is_ the cut-off >between the modest abduction accounts and the wilder ones, and >who determines which is which, and how? The Hopkins/Jacobs method is to accept only things that are independently reported by more than one person. Seems like a reasonable stab at an approach, no matter how much you disagree with the H & J conclusions. It's certainly better than opening your arms and mind to every unconfirmed story that comes along. (Note: I'm _not_ saying that Hopkins/Jacobs abduction stories have been confirmed, even if they're told independently by a dozen people.) >>It's also why anyone who thought abductions represented some kind >>of real phenomenon -- whether an actual abduction by aliens, or >>some up to now unknown psychological syndrome -- might >>responsibly work with Budd's inevitably skewed sample. If you're >>trying to find out, by extensive conversation with abductees, >>what lies behind this phenomenon, who would be more helpful to >>talk to? Those who speak modestly about themselves, and seem >>grounded, or those who seem ready to believe almost anything? >Well, uh, er, yes, except for the obvious objections, which see >the above. What you seem to be saying here is that Budd's more >modest abductees are the real abductees whereas the "wilder" >ones, by definition, aren't. Not really. I'm saying that Budd's more modest abductees are, in some ways, more reasonable to study as examples of the phenomenon, though I'm glad you quoted my acknowledgement of other ways to look at this: >>(I know there can be other views on this. For instance, if you >>believe that the phenomenon is essentially psychosocial, I can >>understand why you'd find the craziest reports just as valuable, >>datawise, as the most sober.) As for who's a "real" abductee....<big shrug>. If abductions are real, then the real abductees are those who've really been abducted. Presumably, if we ever prove abductions are real, we'll have learned enough to know who's really had the experience, at least as well as we now know, let's say, who's really been raped. If abductions turn out to be a psychological phenomenon, then deciding who's a "real" abductee becomes a matter of psychological diagnosis, comparable to diagnosing....[fill in the name of your favorite mental condition; I'm not going to say "comparable to diagnosing schizoprenia," or something, out of consideration for abductees]. >Actually, what I'd really like to know is just what _is_ today's >acceptable abduction report, who determines which ones are sober >and crazy, and how? >If Budd, or anyone else, can figure this out beforehand (doesn't >Jacobs claim to have it down to a science?), then howcome the >crazies turn up in the support groups at all? What happened to >the hidden clues that are supposed to separate the real thing >from the false starts? Crazies aren't very happy in Budd's support groups, because nobody wants to listen to their craziness. Obviously the range of "acceptable" abduction reports -- in the Hopkins/Jacobs view -- has widened, because (as you and others have forcefully pointed out) there are things like hybrid babies that have been added to the "acceptable" list. The standard, though, remains the same -- what's acceptable is what's been reported independently (and, supposedly, without anyone being guided by leading questions) by more than one person. If abductions are real, and it's really aliens or some other unknown beings doing them, we're going to have a hard time deciding what's "acceptable," because we don't know anything about these beings, or about their capabilities. As you remember, Dennis, this is how I ended my long essay on abductions for your excellent publication, The Anomalist -- once we think we might be dealing with aliens, all bets are off about what things might happen, and we're in no position to declare a priori what seems reasonable and what doesn't. That doesn't mean we also throw away all judgement, and, for instance, accept absolutely anything anybody tells us, without any confirmation...but we'd also better not rule anything out just because it sounds crazy to us. Budd, I might add, seems to get good results -- or at least gets reasonable people to work with -- by choosing those who report most of the Roper poll indicators, rather than those who, like many of the writers in The Communion Letters, write long uncorroborated stories of the strange things they say have happened to them. (And yes, I know that's yet another can of worms. It's also interesting to ask why Budd doesn't seem to get many of those letters, and maybe that also speaks well for his methods. He attracts people who are less likely to believe anything that comes into their heads.) Greg Sandow
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 18 Re: STS-48 UFO Debunked? From: Mike Farrell <mikefarr@midcoast.com.au> Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 01:19:13 +1100 Fwd Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 00:52:58 -0500 Subject: Re: STS-48 UFO Debunked? Hello UpDates List, Here's a reply from James Oberg to remarks made by Gary Hart who supported the analysis of Dr. Kasher on the STS-48 footage. Any further rebuttal? _________________________________ From: JamesOberg@aol.com Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 08:40:46 EST To: mikefarr@midcoast.com.au, CSICOP-ANNOUNCE@LISTSERV.AOL.COM Subject: Re: STS-48 UFO Debunked? YES! Objections from Hart: >The fact that several moving objects STOPPED for several frames >before the "shot from the ground", then reversed direction and >zipped away in directions and speeds inconsistent with the >thrust plume from the thruster IS relevant.>> Kasher has been informed (I have copies of my letters) for at least five years that the visible pulse is only PART of the full thruster firing, which is generally invisible to the TV image except during brief moments of propellant mixture mismatch. This can be confirmed by watching any number of OMS or RCS jet firing videos and comparing with telemetry records -- records which Kasher failed to seek out, but were easily sent to Dr. Irwin Wieder when he reviewed Carlotto's paper for JSE. Therefore Kasher's assumption that object motion changed PRIOR to the pulse runs contrary to reality -- the telemetry clearly shows the thruster firing coinciding with the particle motion changing -- and contrary to information in his possession. As to plume direction, the expanding combustion products not only stream out of the nozzle, they also bounce out of the stream at large angles even far downstream, and they bounce off shuttle structure such as wings and pods and come back at you from unexpected directions -- predicting jet plume effects on nearby satellites was in fact part of my technical specialty for NASA and although I did my best to educate Kasher on what we had discovered -- and how we use computer models to accurately predict these effects so as to avoid knocking small objects around too badly -- I see little evidence he understood what I was trying to tell him. BTW, there is no evidence any objects 'reversed direction'. Although the projection of the line of sight motion onto the TV screen's two dimensions shows a sharp angle, the sharpness could easily be the result of viewing the object as it moved away from the camera while the course change was only 10 or 20 degrees -- this was discussed on the site that you found unconvincing, so it suggests you need to re-read it. >All anomalous object angles, sizes and speeds inconsistent with >characteristics of objects that would be close to the shuttle. >Accelerations for anomalous objects calculated and inconsistent >with time thruster fired and energy emitted. Need I go on? Kasher's mathematical mumbo-jumbo is useless as evidence because the test criteria have never been validated in a double-blind (or any other kind) experiment where Kasher is shown other videos including both near and far objects, and he has proved his ability to tell them apart. He has never done this -- so the equations are snares of the innumerate. Particle acceleration occurs during the course of the thruster firings and at no other times -- just as you would expect from nearby objects hit by plumes. And since Kasher's calculations use erroneous jet firing times -- against the advice of experts -- naturally their results will be astounding. >Any further comments? Get Dr. Kasher's video and decide for >yourself. His calculations tell me more than Oberg's blather. I >agree with Dr. Kasher's conclusions. Mr. Hart, how many other videos of drifting objects hit by jet plumes would it take to persuade you that it was a normal space flight occurrence?
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 18 Re: Abductions and Researcher Bias From: Tim D. Brigham <devilsad@ksinc.net> Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 09:29:59 -0600 Fwd Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 01:05:01 -0500 Subject: Re: Abductions and Researcher Bias >From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: Re: Abductions and Researcher Bias >Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 23:30:31 -0500 >>From: Joseph Polanik <jpolanik@mindspring.com> >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >>Subject: Re: Abductions and Researcher Bias >>Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 20:54:54 GMT >>>>"Why Does every Abduction Researcher always find his own >>>>Favorite Breed of Alien?" >>>>by >>>>Martin Kottmeyer <snip> >>>>Kottmeyer's title -- "Why Does every Abduction Researcher >>>>find his own always Favorite Breed of Alien?" -- is, as I've >>>>said, an exaggeration. "Always" is the key word. It just >>>>ain't so. >>>As I've said, I've seen a fair number of Budd Hopkins's >>>abductees entertain positive views of the aliens, and even come >>>to positive conclusions. One conclusion I come to is that >>>abductees, on their own, form many views of the phenomenon. If >>>the abduction investigator they work with shares their views, >>>they're more likely to stay with him or her. >>No doubt this sorting does occur. That would imply that the >>researcher's perspective attracts experiencers whose reports >>support that view and repels experiencers whose reports support >>a different view. >>The researcher's results, when based on the reports of those who >>self-sort this way, is based on a skewed sample ... not a random >>sample as would be required by a scientific methodology. >Except I just said that the abductees who work with Budd have all >sorts of views of the aliens. Some who take a positive view still >work with him. So the sample isn't as skewed as Kottmeyer, for >one, seems to expect. >Besides, whoever claimed any investigator's file of abductees >represented a random sample? That could never be true. The >scientific methodology in abduction studies comes from people >like Eddie Bullard, who survey the work of as many abduction >investigators as they can find. >Finally, while I'll grant that the words "random sample of >abductees" have a sound scientific ring, how would anyone >assemble such a thing in reality? How would you even define an >abductee? Is an abductee anyone who thinks they are, or someone >who in effect has been vetted by an investigator? >If it's the latter, which investigators' vetting do we accept? >The whole idea of a random sample gets a little less tangible, I >think, once we start trying to make it a reality. >>It doesn't matter who sorts the data. It still ends up skewed. >>The researcher who does not acknowledge that his/her database is >>not representative of the whole population of experiencers >>translates that skewed database into a skewed theory. <snips> Hi Greg, Regarding the subtitle/byline of the article, it is an admitted (and I thought, an obvious) exaggeration. If I recall correctly (not positive here), that was actually my suggestion. I thought that it was _such_ an obvious exaggeration that no one would take issue with it and would instead see it for what it was - my small attempt to add some flair to the pages, as well as give me a chance to use my corel draw program to make a cool box in which to insert a byline <g> - but I've learned a lot since waaaaay back in 95 (?) when I printed that in my lil 'zine ;) I am glad though, that you were able to move beyond that one line and actually address the issue itself, which not many people have done, as far as I have seen. If anyone is still caught up on that line though, I will admit and take full responsibility for the innaccuracy of the subtitle (but hell, I would've done that since day one), however, in exchange you must actually address the rest of the article <g> Greg, I have a lot of respect for you and the way in which you approach such discussions, it is nice to see that some people can actually still talk about such matters without resorting to insults and such. I agree with you that this is by no means the "final" word on the issue, and I don't think Martin intended or expected it to be either, it was just an alternate view of the data Bullard presented. Some good points from the other side of the fence have been raised as well - on the matters of "abductee self-selection" of which researchers they will chose, etc. My mind is still open about the matter, and I'm looking forward to the reply in the next IUR. Take care, Tim )+( www.ksinc.net/~devilsad/ufo.htm The Devil's Advocate www.ksinc.net/~devilsad/ring.htm Operation MindPhuck "Better to go hungry than to feast on lies." )+(
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 18 Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality From: Jean-Luc Rivera <JLRIV1@aol.com> Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 10:33:23 EST Fwd Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 01:10:37 -0500 Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 21:58:53 -0600 (CST) >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net> >Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >>From: Jean-Luc Rivera <JLRIV1@aol.com> >>Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 12:06:34 EST >>To: updates@globalserve.net >>Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality <snip> >>I will disagree with some of Dennis comments: back in the 50's >>and 60's, ufologists of the time, embattled with the contactees >>and trying desperately to gain some "respectability , were >>censoring their own investigations quite often. In print were >>disappearing the witness mention of occupants, of >>parapsychological phenomena and other 'off the norm' details. >>This might be one of the explanations for the absence of >>potentially indicative of abduction reports. Another is that if >>you don't think about asking some questions to the witness, you >>will not get the answers. Thirty years ago, nobody was asking >>the 'right' questions. >I was not, of course, talking about the UFO literature. I was >asking, in essence, where is there any evidence of abductions >anywhere _other_ than in the UFO literature? Dear Dennis, Thank you for the precision. I think the point is very interesting. Do you know if anybody did this kind of research in the psychological and psychiatric journals of the 30's to the 60's ? Of course, if there are some potential cases, they might be hidden amongst other case histories and the reader would have to look for the indicators of a 'potential' abduction as defined today. >>And back in the 20's, despite the wide interest for the >>Martians, there was also a lot of ridicule towards the mediums >>channelling either spirits or Martians. Nothing has changed >>much: without precluding of the nature of the experience, the >>experiencer who comes forward for reporting his story has to >>show a lot of courage. It was true 70 years ago, it is true >>today. >Again, I'm not necessarily talking about any particular >individual going to the press. My point was: If abductions are >as scarifying as they are reported to be, and if they routinely >involve children, wouldn't some parent or parents have >approached _someone_ for help over the many decades preceding >the Hill incident. And wouldn't we logically expect to see some >past record of same? I'm not talking about front page headlines, >I'm talking about the odd case history that would be written up >and submitted to one of the many psyhcological and >parapsychological journals that fluorished earlier in the >century. >Dennis My question is the same as above: do you know of anybody who did that kind of research ? The only person I can think of, at least for the parapsychological journals, is Hilary Evans. Maybe he could give us his opinion about this point. Until someone has done it, I am afraid our discussion will become pointless because uninformed. I will seize this opportunity to thank all the participants on this thread for an extremely informative discussion, a high level of knowledge and a complete absence of name calling and spurious arguments. It should serve as an example of what researchers from diverse opinions can achieve when they want to. Jean-Luc Rivera
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 18 Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality From: Tim D. Brigham <devilsad@ksinc.net> Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 09:46:44 -0600 Fwd Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 01:13:52 -0500 Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com> >Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 15:18:00 EST >To: updates@globalserve.net >Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >>Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 10:15:13 +0000 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >>From: John Rimmer <magonia@magonia.demon.co.uk> >>Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >>>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com> >>>Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 13:40:46 EST >>>To: updates@globalserve.net >>>Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality <snip> >>Where either you or your friends memories recorded or reported >>anywhere before you started discussing it betwen yourselves? How >>can you be sure that in discussing it you have not unwittingly >>confabulated a joint memories. Who took the lead in the >>discussions? Just _how_ independent are your separate memories? >They were indeed written, recorded, confirmed, stored and much >of it was retold as it was happening... on another venue. The >information is verifiable and has already been discussed with a >researcher who has my respect. The other player has suffered >much as a result of his recall over a period of 35 years or >so... his recall is not as recent as mine and his story was >indeed previously recorded privately and shared with his wife >and children who also have had experiences but perceived theirs >prior to learning of George's experience. This experience left >my friend shattered by virtue of it's strangeness. He is a >scientist, a man unused to a reality which cannot be recognized >as a reality in the strictest definition of the scientist. >While my recall is recent, it is the recall of the "detail" >which is recent. My recall of "a strange event" goes back all >those years. And no, we did not discuss it until we began to >correspond last year. This too can be verified. There are >those, however who will believe nothing which they will not >allow themselves to believe. >We grew up together, spent a great deal of time together in >shooting sports. _Never_ spoke of our experience many years ago >until we met again after about a thirty year hiatus. We did >not even discuss it the afternoon we found ourselves in a place >we were not in just moments prior. Those moments, however, >turned out to be hours. What had been an early afternoon >hunting trip to the Catskill foothills became a late afternoon >completed trip sitting in restaurant, hours later. We drove >home in complete silence and never mentioned it again. In part, >this was because of the strangeness, in part due to a kind of >numbness of mind which lasted more than a few days. In large >part, we have no idea why we said nothing. >To tell more would be unfair to the organization I chose to work >with. There are answers to all of the questions people will >ask. But the answers will not satisfy those who fear hearing >the truth for reasons I cannot ascribe or assign. Some have >told me that hearing such (as truth) would destroy their >personal life paradigm. My personal opinion... if it is fear >which destroys your judgment, then lose it or die not knowing >truth, whatever the truth may be. >As Frank Herbert said in Dune, "Fear is the mind killer.... it >is the little death which causes total obliteration...." We >face our fear. Do you who fear, face yours? Indeed, but would accept such truth if it meant discovering that a part of your life you have spent much energy and time dealing with, and in some sense, accepting as truth - an abduction event- was actually explainable as something else? It works both ways. As far as not letting anyone know the truth because it would "destroy their life paradigm" or some such, well, thanks for protecting us, but isn't that the same thing that 'believers' so angrily accuse the US government of in these matters? Again, it works both ways. If you live with a paradigm in which alien abductions exist as undeniable fact, how does that differ from one who lives with a paradigm in which they undeniably don't? It's easier to live with a belief, even if that belief isn't the most popular one on the planet (however, in the case of belief in alien abductions, believers certainly aren't alone), than it is to admit that you _don't_ know what the hell is going on, and to not buy into anyone who says that they do. "Better to go hungry than to feast on lies." Take care, Tim Brigham )+( www.ksinc.net/~devilsad/ufo.htm The Devil's Advocate www.ksinc.net/~devilsad/ring.htm Operation MindPhuck "Better to go hungry than to feast on lies." )+(
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 18 Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality From: Steven Kaeser <konsulting@pop.digiweb.com> Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 08:44:01 -0500 Fwd Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 01:17:33 -0500 Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 03:38:47 -0800 >From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality <snip> >Dear Judith and Leanne: >One caution: Most of the electronic devices you mention, and >others, have some sort of memory. The clock remembers when to >alarm, or do something else. It remembers what time it is now, >so it can increment that time each second. Organizers etc. are >almost all memory. I'm not talking about simple, dumb electrical >appliances like the electric blanket. >My point is, that all of these can be 're-set', sent to >never-never land or an endless loop by a simple electrical >discharge, if it is strong enough. A bolt of lightning will do, >or sometimes just the static from a rug. >Several devices could go bonkers at the same time, with a >perfectly mundane explanation. Just that happened recently at >work when we had a rare thunderstorm here. Larry, and list- Electromagetic Pulse effects aren't the same as voltage surges, which is the primary problem one has around thunderstorms (although both can cause serious problems for electronics). One involves an electromagnetic field that affects the flow of electrons, while the other involves transient voltage "spikes" that can overwhelm unprotected circuits (i.e. microchips) and burn out some sensitive devices. There was an interesting report on 20/20 last week regarding EM weopons, and their impact on electronics. The U.S. military didn't weigh in on the subject, which is probably where the real expertise is located, but a private researcher who is familiar with the subject had designed a device in his garage that shut down a car, heart monitoring device, and (of course) a couple of computers. Just a comment. Steve
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 18 Re: Pope On A Rope From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net> Date: Wed, 17 Feb 99 10:56:21 PST Fwd Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 01:25:50 -0500 Subject: Re: Pope On A Rope >Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 12:54:09 -0500 >From: Andy Roberts <Brigantia@compuserve.com> >Subject: Re: Pope On A Rope >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net> >>Subject: Re: Pope On A Rope >>Date: Mon, 15 Feb 99 11:41:26 PST >Jerry Clarke wrote: First off, Andy, the last name is Clark, not Clarke. >>I'm afraid our friend shows his hand here. We are informed, >>with precisely no evidence bearing one way or another on the >>question, that Nick Pope's (er, excuse me, "Popey's") experience >>was "imaginary." How do we know? Why, Andy told us so! That >>being the case, how could we doubt? And who would believe >>somebody called "Popey" anyway? >I never believed my hand was hidden Jerry! You were informed >'with precisely no evidence' for the simple reason that Pope has >never provided any evidence his alleged experience was anything >_other_ than imaginary. The point which you missed - again - is >a significant one. Let's break it down: That Pope has not provided evidence tells us only that he has not provided evidence. Got that? It tells us nothing about whether the experience was imaginary or not. To make that determination, we need to know more than your highly biased opinion. >- Pope claims he had no knowledge in or interest of UFOs prior >to working on the UFO desk at the MOD >- Pope claims the information he gleaned vis a vis UFOs whilst >_at_ the MOD is the truth, he even hints at things he knows >which he can't reveal to us mere mortals I very much doubt that Pope has used the phrase "mere mortals". Let's see some specific quotes here to determine context and accuracy of paraphrase. Or are you simply employing cheap sarcasm in place of a rational argument? >- Then in the first draft of 'Open Skies....' he writes about an >alleged abduction experience which happend _to_him_. >- Pope _denies_ this was the case, despite it being seen by Jenny >Randles when she was sent the draft copy >- The experience then surfaces pseudonymously in Pope's second >book >- He _still_ denies it had anything to do with him - even on >live TV In full anticipation, of course, of the torrent of ridicule that would wash over him should it be revealed that this was his own personal abduction experience. And that, of course, is precisely what happened. >- Then, lawdy, lawdy. He comes out and says it was him after all. >Now in my book that makes disingenuous, at the very least, for >not coming clean. So? >It also begs the *serious- question of how are >we supposed to believe *anything- he writes or lectures about. Oh, my. I guess I live in the larger world, where persons not ordinarily thought of as pathological liars are disingenous all the time when it comes to things they'd rather other people did not want to know about, such as matters that could embarrass them or open them to ridicule or worse. (Why, I'll bet that if you did enough research, you could even find Presidents of the United States who have conducted themselves in precisely that fashion.) I guess St. Andy adheres to higher standards of divine conduct than we mere mortals can manage. >Jerry also wrote: >>It seems to me that the Pope matter is worth noting as a matter >>of some small passing interest, then relegating to obscurity. >Simply because either a) you miss the point again or b) because >you find a famous ufologists' problems with a straight narrative >somewhat unsettling for what it may say about others. The more I read of your remarks, my friend, the more certain I am that I have scored a bull's eye on the point. For what "a famous ufologists' [sic] problems with a straight narrative" have in common with comparable problems by non-ufologists (aka normal human beings), see above. >>We may anticipate, >>with dreary certainty, that the significance of Pope's >>reluctance to broadcast his perceived experience will be >>inflated and flogged like a dead horse. >There's a hell of a lot of 'dreary certainty' in ufology, >usually when people are getting near the nub of a case or a >person's attitude. So Andy's remarks suggest. >Thanks to Dennis for chipping (it's about time ufologists on >this list began being a little less apathetic!) in with his >point of view, echoing my own: >>Meanwhile, Roberts must be one of them there psychosociologists >>against which you are so opposed. >Git them waggons in a circle Martha, the psychosocioligists is a >comin'. Huh? What are the psychosociologists doing here? I certainly never mentioned them. Hell, I didn't even _think_ of 'em. And what are those wagons doing in the picture? Who's Martha? Are we suddenly in a Western movie? Dennis, what were you smoking when you wrote the above? Please pay better attention in the future, okay? Or to put it another way: Why the paranoia here, or -- more to the point -- the frantic desire by Andy and Dennis to change the subject? Or is the answer all too obvious? >Sorry if all this goes over old ground again. We British are >like that with _facts_ we like to grip them and worry them until >something comes out. I sure hope you don't break your arm congratulating yourself and a whole islandful of countrymen there. And thanks, too, for alerting all of us foreigners to our indifference to facts. All I can say is, we do our best. Jerry Clark
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 18 Re: The Saucer Song From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net> Date: Wed, 17 Feb 99 11:08:25 PST Fwd Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 01:34:04 -0500 Subject: Re: The Saucer Song >Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 20:12:11 -0600 (CST) >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net> >Subject: The Saucer Song [was: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality] >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net> >>Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >>Date: Tue, 16 Feb 99 10:37:38 PST >>Interviewed on National Public Radio, Bragg said he and Wilco >>had recorded some 40 songs, only 15 of which appear on the CD. >>One of the unreleased numbers was a light-hearted song about >>flying saucers. As I recall, Bragg either mentioned it only in >>passing or (less likely) played a short extract from it. If the >>latter, I think I -- as a ufologist as well as a songwriter with >>a longtime interest in the folk- music movement -- would have >>remembered it. >Larry, Jerry: >Actually, they played the song and mentioned the fact that it >wasn't on the CD. Billy Bragg did it in the studio, during the >interview. Dennis, Thanks for the info. I may have come in a little late on Terry Gross's show and missed Bragg's snippet of the Guthrie lyric. I do recall his saying something to the effect that if Mermaid Avenue sold well enough, there would be a follow-up release of songs currently in the can. Possibly this would include the saucer song. There has, however, yet been no second CD announced. Jerry Clark
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 18 Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality From: Judith Dale <judithdale@earthlink.net> Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 08:58:47 -0800 Fwd Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 01:56:01 -0500 Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 18:23:45 -0500 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> >Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >>Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 21:58:55 -0600 (CST) >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >>From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net> >>Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >>So I repeat: if the distress levels reported today, and >>particularly the concern voiced over children, have been with us >>since the turn of the century, then I would expect to see _some_ >>evidence of same in the voluminous existing psychiatric, >>psychological, parapsychological, and pediatric literature. >>After all, Hale's elf made it into a scientific biography. >Hi Dennis, ><snip> >You are also not taking into consideration the very human fact >that most folks would rather keep their mouths shut than be >thought of as crazy, strange, or different. Not to mention the >real possibility of being committed to a mental institution in >those times! A search of old psychiatric records from mental >institutions might prove a rich source of the very material you >are speaking of. I wonder _how_many_ were committed over the >years because they were "suffering from the delusion" that they >were being visited/counselled/taken by "elves" or "dwarfs." Or >how many of those "delusions" contained elements involving >lights, or operating rooms, or any of the other abduction >"regulars." I bet it would be a fruitful study. The whole Mormon >religion is based on such an "abduction/visitation-like" >account. Glowing beings travelling on beams of light, the works. >That was 1825! <snip> Hi guys and gals, John, I think you make a good point here. My review of the literature related to the history of 'mental illness' treatment, has revealed a variety of past approaches and beliefs regarding various claims of 'visitations'. There is a history of folks being seen as saints, heretics, witches, possessed by 'the devil', or being lunatics, related to their tales of being 'visited', abducted, and the like. The framework for the societal definition of these events, seems to be based in whatever the religious/scientific/cultural paradigm was at the time. There does seem to be a connection between how these folks were treated based on how open they were about their experiences. Secrecy and hiding the experience has always seemed to prevail. Except, in those cases where the person really was affected emotionally and behaviorally, by their experiences. Thus becoming obvious to all around them that something was askew. I have a close friend, who infact was psychiatrically hospitalized back in 1956 or '57, due to becoming quite hysterical as the result of intrusions and 'abductions'. Aside from one event that occurred in her childhood, involving 'glowing beings' visiting her, all of the rest of the events in her life began after a 'football field' size UFO hovered for an hour or so over the Airforce base she and her family lived on. That event occurred in 1954, in Texas. Reports of the event were completely squelched. All of the officers at the time, including her husband, were told to not say one word about the event to any civilians. Anyway, following that event, she began to have many, many 'visitor' intrusions into her life. Her daughter, who was about 3 or 4 at the time, also, experienced an abduction event. A couple of years later, when they were stationed in Alaska, my friend apparently became quite 'unglued', resulting in her hospitalization. At the military hospital no less. She comments now, that the staff and doctors there, were very clear with her, that she was 'crazy', and couldn't possibly be being 'bothered' by aliens. Although, my friend's experience occurred in the '50's, I bring it up only as an example of what can and has occurred to people who were open and honest about their experiences. Regards, Judith
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 18 Re: Pope On A Rope From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net> Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 12:55:35 -0600 (CST) Fwd Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 07:58:58 -0500 Subject: Re: Pope On A Rope >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net> >Subject: Re: Pope On A Rope >Date: Tue, 16 Feb 99 12:40:31 PST >The attempt at moral equivalency here staggers the mind. >Jerry Clark Jerry, Let me just say this: I knew Ralph Noyes (who held either the same or very similar job as Pope) and Nick Pope is no Ralph Noyes. By that, I mean (mostly) that Noyes worked the UFO desk in the Ministry of Defence as well -- and knew what he didn't know. As for equivalent, here's what I had in mind. Nick Pope was really who he said was. So was Corso (well, to some extent). Both men then wrote hugely successful (and some would say influential) books that -- uh, how shall I say this? -- inflated both their role in and insider knowledge of, the UFO phenomenon. I do not equate the contents of the two books, as Corso's was entirely a work of fiction. In fact, if I were going to be fair, which, alas, we know I never am, I would probably place a good part of the blame for Corso's fiction on his co-author. That said, I have nothing against writing books for money. In fact, once I have the secret figured out, I hope to apply it in practice myself. (You bribe an editor, don't you?) Pope was no doubt approached by a publisher and the two of them agreed that he had a book about his experiences at the MoD in him. Nothing the matter with that. He was probably also aware of the fact that the book that Noyes didn't write then wouldn't do now -- so he wrote the one he did. Fair enough again, but that doesn't render Pope immune from criticism if, as appears, he's been caught out playing loose with some of his facts or claims. He can always take the Friedman defense: "I don't know how that sentence got there." I henceforth propose that all UFO books should be co-authored in the future. This will leave each author the defense, when sentences mysteriously appear mid-paragraph (or perhaps even constitute entire paragraphs), that "The other guy did it!" Still staggering minds, but not abducted yet... Dennis
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 18 Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality From: John Rimmer <magonia@magonia.demon.co.uk> Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 19:21:15 +0000 Fwd Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 08:02:47 -0500 Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 18:23:45 -0500 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> >Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >You are also not taking into consideration the very human fact >that most folks would rather keep their mouths shut than be >thought of as crazy, strange, or different. So that's the end of the Jerry Springer show then! -- John Rimmer www.magonia.demon.co.uk Abandon hope all ye who press Enter here
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 18 Re: Riddle of the Skies - Part 3 From: Tim Matthews <matthews@zetnet.co.uk> Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 13:58:41 -0000 Fwd Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 08:06:37 -0500 Subject: Re: Riddle of the Skies - Part 3 >From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >To: UFO UpDates Subscribers:; >Subject: UFO UpDate: Re: Riddle of the Skies - Part 3 >Date: 17 February 1999 09:01 > >Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 14:14:30 -0500 >From: Tony Spurrier <TSpurrier@compuserve.com> >Subject: Re: Riddle of the Skies - Part 3 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >>Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 10:31:01 +0000 >>From: Neil Morris <Neil@adm1.ph.man.ac.uk> >>To: Ufo Updates List <updates@globalserve.net> >>Subject: Riddle of the Skies - Part 3 >>Now to my eyes the piece of video "seemed" rock solid >>sync-wise, which to me infers the equipement used, _if_ >>it had been copied in that manner was a "little" more >>sophisticated than your common or garden domestic camcorder >>and VCR. >David's VCR is pretty standard but he has a little more than >just a domestic camcorder. I haven't got the exact specification >but it cost somewhere in the region of 2 thousand pounds, just >like the average house husband owns <g>. >>???Has anyone got this footage, I would like a close look??. >As far as I'm aware copies of the footage are few and far >between, have you got David's contact details? if not I can give >them to you. >>I also found it interesting that there WERE witnesses to at least >>some of the sightings he taped.< >We found that odd, we couldn't remember Jean saying that she'd >witnessed the triangle, but we may be wrong. This is very odd especially as it is clear that the footage relating to their supposed sighting is out of focus. Was there an actual triangle shown? Let's get some facts straight here; 1 - Spoor has admitted to Matthew Williams, on a tape that I've heard, to altering the footage. 2 - He has claimed to local investigators that some unseen force was able to erase the vital master copies of some tapes. 3 - When down at Union Pictures they showed us the footage and we told them all about it. The programme didn't show what we'd been shown because there was additional footage of two RAF Tornados described by Graham Birdsall (in a Sunday newspaper) as remarkable footage (or something very similar indeed..) - of 'triangular UFOs'. UK researchers have, no doubt, seen this article. 4 - Therefore one can only conclude that UP were concerned enough to call Spoor in and then try and verify his footage. The guy who analyzed it clearly felt there was something very wrong here and Spoor looked incredibly nervous. Not only that; the expert came up with several much better reasons for this footage for instance the suspicion that the camera was moving and not the object. In any case Spoor did have time to engage in the so-called "laborious process" of filming things off TV. He has been unavailable for work for years.... 5 - I have seen, as have several others in the past, still "photos" that show a UFO from ABOVE. These were obviously done using some sort of Photoshop type programme and again I ask; HOW DID SPOOR GET AIR-TO-GROUND SHOTS? I'll briefly tell you one story related to me by a local investigator in the area. Spoor was sitting in a library one day when he met up with a guy who claimed to have these photos of UFOs over the coast. He gave Spoor access. Therefore these did not originate with Spoor. Sound like BS? Does to me. And yet this story from one of his major supporters. 6 - At one point in December '97 (off the top of my head) Spoor broke away from local investigators to go it alone. At this point his wife, a local councillor no less, got in on the act and they engaged the services of John Downes to promote the footage. Downes, also caught on tape by Williams, took a percentage of any monies made. I heard, but cannot prove yet, that Spoor received several thousand pounds for his footage. Well he must have been paid by UP..... UP should be congratulated for attempting to fully analyze the footage. Downes was purely interested in marketing the footage, as far as I can tell. 7 - Spoor was clearly interested in money and told locals that he had decided to go it alone in order to "get something out of this". You can interpret that comment however you like.... 8 - There are very few witnesses to the "UFOs" Spoor recorded. 9 - There is clear evidence, again uncovered by Matthew Williams, that the backgrounds and audio part of the tapes have been altered in order to make them look better than they are/were. 10 - Spoor may have been heavily influenced by members and supporters of what might be best described as a local 'Contactee' cult. This was related to me by somebody associated with this group and I cannot prove that this is true. All in all a very dubious business. Spoor did have access to all kinds of equipment and he was backed up by his wife in this. He was influenced by people who represent the UFO Industry and not objective UFO research. Tim Good initially saw some of the footage, if my memory serves me correctly, and gave it a thumbs down but changed his mind after an intervention by certain well-known researchers in the Yorkshire area. At one point both Omar Fowler and Tony Dodd were involved too and it might be interesting to ask them for their opinions on this matter. The facts are clear; the footage is highly suspect indeed and we can only conclude that the likelihood of fakery is high. Tim X
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 18 Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality From: Bill Weber <koran@cchat.com> Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 15:19:13 -0500 Fwd Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 08:09:11 -0500 Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 23:03:24 -0600 (CST) >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net> >Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >I'm not blaming abductees for anything, least of all the >experience they have. >And far from my questions about loss of bladder and bowel >control being "misdirected" and sarcastically "oh so sincere" >(in your words), they're something that I've been thinking about >for some time, and which I consider a legitimate issue. Is the >abduction experience terrifying enough to occasion same, or >isn't? >Several abduction researchers have let it be known that they are >withholding certain details of the abduction experience as a >control mechanism, the better to determine the real thing. >I simply asked if the loss of bowel and bladder control (known >to occur under moments of stress) might be one of those >invariables. >There was nothing insincere about it. Or, for that matter, >misdirected. >It was a simple inquiry, nothing more. >I won't dwell on the subject matter if you won't. Hi, Dennis, Sure. Nuff said. (I've been thinking about it a lot lately as well - but mostly with regard to my three year old.) I think my point has already been made more than adequately by Jerry Clark, elsewhere on the list. Sincerely, Bill
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 18 Re: Reality Check From: Ron Bach <roam5@utinet.com> Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 05:26:07 -0700 Fwd Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 08:12:10 -0500 Subject: Re: Reality Check Public Announcement Re: Reality Check - Paranoia Running Rampant As We Slide To 2000 By Ron Bach February 16, 1999 Further to my above article, I am stormed with correspondence where personal reply to each individual is difficult if not impossible. Especially when most are repeatedly demanding similar clarifications. Let me address the clarifications in public for mutual convenience alongside historical and archive purposes. 1) My choice of the words "ludicrous", "so-called", "claims", "pardon", and "oath" in my article. If my usage of "ludicrous" has led to any misunderstandings, then I offer my sincere apologies to Richard C. Hoagland and Steven Greer alongside their respective organizations and supporters. Until we have public acceptance and proof regarding an approaching Asteroid, Meteor, or Comet from either Civilian Organizations, Public Organizations, Private Organizations, or Extraterrestrial entities (if you like), I will unabashedly continue using the words "so-called" and "claims". To the best of my knowledge, there is a debate amongst UFO community with regards to just how many "Security Oaths" and/or "Agreements", the witnesses are bound by. Hence my usage of generalized word "Pardon" rather than "immunity" and "oath" rather than "Security Oath". 2) Do I doubt that these witnesses exist? Again very little information is publicly disclosed regarding the witnesses, their experiences, and their testimonies. Certain UFO groups have more access to that information and I am not a member of those. However, considering the sensitive claim, and the fact that it may be impossible for Steven Greer or other associated organizations to disclose evidence at this stage, I will neither completely doubt nor totally believe. Hence the word "claims". I am aware about the Washington D.C. conference, in that such a conference took place. Again, I am not aware about the specifics of that conference at this stage. 3) My choice of heroes to back my claims, especially Robert A.M. Stephens (RAMS). Nowhere in my article have I used any quote, reference, or question raised by Robert A. M. Stephens to back my claims (I did not make claims). I Just mentioned his name since in my opinion some of his questions addressed to Richard C. Hoagland were legitimate. Unfortunately, those questions remain unanswered. However, since none of Robert A. M. Stephens' questions were directly addressed with regards to the approaching Asteroid, Meteor, or Comet, I indirectly put forward my question regarding the proof of approaching Asteroid, Meteor, or Comet in my article. Realizing my error of not specifically asking this question(s) to Richard C. Hoagland, I have decided to further research Richard C. Hoagland's Asteroid hypothesis in order to seek further clarifications or a set of questions. 4) Do I believe that the Miami Circle in Florida is very important? A resounding YES. Whatever the circle really may be, it is unwise to ignore it. However, if an Asteroid, Meteor, or Comet will collide with Earth in June 1999, then Miami Circle's priority would be downgraded. 5) Do I believe in Martian Faces, Lunar Anomalies, Masonic Conspiracies, Black Ops, etc.? Sorry, but I have not mentioned these anywhere in my article or in my posts. Neither do I wish to be dragged in these matters at this stage. Forgive me for being one track minded, but if we are going to perish -- probably by June 1999 -- then I don't give a damn to any of the above. 6) Why did I select Sightings - Jeff Rense World to post my article? Since many in the UFO community by now will know that millions of people received my article for public posting at the same time, obviously, I did not SELECT Sightings. On the contrary, Sightings was the first site that publicly posted it as they considered it to be newsworthy. Since majority people who correspond with me refer to Sightings, I am very grateful to everyone at Sightings for their support. Considering the amount of mail I receive due to Sightings, obviously Sightings is one of the best sites that provides timely informative news from all sources around the world without unnecessary claptrap. 7) Comments and Replies: As of writing this announcement on February 16, 1999 11:50 p.m. (Hong Kong time), I personally have not received any flame from either Richard C. Hoagland, Steven Greer, or their respective organizations. To that extent, I appreciate their integrity and apologize if my wordings have insulted them. On the contrary, I have received hundreds of abusive, insulting, and content free correspondence and calls from their apparent supporters. I kindly suggest those people to refrain from derogatory insults and abuse. You are always welcome to suggest your opinions and comments. I have always kindly replied to such correspondence and will continue to do so provided you restrain your emotions. Think about it. If we are going to die pretty soon, why bother with trivial insults or abuse? Finally, I wish to extend my hearty thanks to the countless people who have send me supportive mail and taken the necessary time and effort to correct me and debate me where ever necessary on these matters. It really does show you care when you go through the trouble of doing it with a positive attitude. Copyright notice: You may reproduce, distribute, publish, or forward this article as long as the contents are not changed and proper credit is given to the author. Copyright (c) 1999.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 18 Re: Ed Fouche From: Nancy Davidson <nld1@ix.netcom.com> Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 15:55:43 -0600 (CST) Fwd Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 08:16:52 -0500 Subject: Re: Ed Fouche >Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 01:03:00 -0800 >From: Josh Goldstein <clearlt@pacbell.net> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: Ed Fouche Hi - On one his postings about Ed Fouche, Josh Goldstein said that Brad Steiger had dubious writing credentials. I had also heard that Brad Steiger is not his real name. Can Josh Goldstein shed some light on his comment. Also has anybody read the book "Overlords" by David L Davidson. Thanks. Nancy Davidson
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 18 Re: Dutch Motorist Says UFO Disabled His Opel Car From: Mark Cashman <mcashman@ix.netcom.com> Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 17:00:05 -0500 Fwd Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 08:17:59 -0500 Subject: Re: Dutch Motorist Says UFO Disabled His Opel Car >From: Jeroen Kumeling <ufonet@xs4all.nl> >To: <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: Dutch Motorist Says UFO Disabled His Opel Car >Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 19:56:38 +0100 >DUTCH MOTORIST SAYS UFO DISABLED HIS OPEL CAR >One night in August 1998, at 1 a.m., Joost van F. decided to let >his dog go for a moonlight run in T. Wiske nature park, near >Zaandam, a suburb 10 kilometers (6 miles) north of Amsterdam, >capital of the Netherlands. So how about the rest of the story? ------ Mark Cashman, creator of The Temporal Doorway at http://www.temporaldoorway.com - Original digital art, writing, and UFO research - UFO cases, analysis, classification systems, and more... http://www.temporaldoorway.com/ufo.htm
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 18 Max Burns' Non-Criminal Record From: Max Burns <AlienHype@aol.com> Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 17:17:06 EST Fwd Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 08:42:08 -0500 Subject: Max Burns' Non-Criminal Record >Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 11:15:18 -0500 >From: Andy Roberts <Brigantia@compuserve.com> >Subject: Re: The Sheffield Incident >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> <snip> >Add to this the fact that Max is currently on the run from the >police in Rotherham and you have a major UFO research >organisation supporting criminals! Errol, Since you wish to have no more discussion on the Sheffield incident at this time, I hope that you can post this, as there are some incorrect and liable statements from Mr Andy Robert's in the above quoted post. This malicious attempt to slur my good name, is outrageous, and untrue, 1...Mr Robert's allegation that I am a "criminal" 2...And that BUFORA are supporting "Criminals" is also untrue. I am not "on the run from Rotherham police". I am a man of _no_ criminal convictions. There has been a warrant issued from the court for my arrest, due to an amount of council tax that I owe. I am about to start a new job and hope to bring these payments up to date in the very near future. Council Tax A tax introduced by the local government finance act of 1992. A local authority must levy and collect it: Local government finance act 1992. 1(1) It is payable in respect of dwellings situated in its area (ibid., s 1(1)). There are different amounts for dwellings in different valuation bands (ibids, s 5) The persons liable to pay the tax are set out in ibid,ss 6-9. The amount of tax payable is calculated in accordance with ibid, ss 10-13 The local authority must compile a valuation list showing which of the valuation bands is applicable to the dwelling (ibid,s 30). The Secretary of State has power to limit the amount of tax payable. Above extract from Mozley & Whiteley's, Law Dictionary, eleventh edition. But more importantly this warrant and the amount of money I owe is under British law a "_Civil_Matter_ and _not_ under any circumstances a _criminal_ matter. I bet no one else has ever owed some money to the government/..... I.R.S , etc. I repeat to all subscribers of UpDates, I am a man of _no_ criminal convictions. I cannot allow this to continue at the expense of my good name. Having spoken to my legal representative and taken his advice, I demand that Mr Andy Robert's makes a full apology via this list, within seven days from the date of the posting. and that he withdraw the allegation that I am a criminal. Without prejudice or malice. Or that he supplies his home address, so that the correct legal documentation may be served. I am no longer accepting personal posts from Mr Andy Robert's. I have all ready given Mr Robert's the opportunity to rectify this wilful statement to this List. "Its nice to be important but its more important to be nice" Dirty tricks campaigns will not be tolerated. Max Burns
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 18 Re: On Ed Fouche Speaking at MUFON L.A. Meeting From: Josh Goldstein <clearlt@pacbell.net> Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 18:56:14 -0800 Fwd Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 09:49:52 -0500 Subject: Re: On Ed Fouche Speaking at MUFON L.A. Meeting >From: Diana Botsford <diana_botsford@hotmail.com> >To: updates@globalserve.net >Subject: Re: On Ed Fouche Speaking at MUFON L.A. Meeting >Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 20:09:40 PST >Mr. Fouche's wife Rebecca, not sister, was the one who >"defended" him in recent posts on UFO UpDates. She works as >editor for a great deal of his material and is actually quite >intelligent in her own right. >As far as Fouche's claims, prior to having him on our webshow as >a guest, we requested a copy of his discharge papers from the >Air Force. I then had several independent military consultants >review the papers for authenticity. They checked out. Thanks, Diana but I am familiar with his and his wife's ciaims. You saw his discharge but not any documents supporting what he did in the service. Did you see any other su[[porting documents regarding positions he held in military or civilian life. I still would really like to know if anyone has done any background investigation of this man and his claims. I'll see him talk tonight and grill him for evidence beyond his story. Josh Goldstein MJ-13
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 18 Re: Pope On A Rope From: James Easton <pulsar@compuserve.com> Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 22:09:41 -0500 Fwd Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 09:52:55 -0500 Subject: Re: Pope On A Rope Regarding: >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net> >Subject: Re: Pope On A Rope >Date: Mon, 15 Feb 99 11:41:26 PST Jerry wrote: >>Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 12:36:27 -0500 >>From: Andy Roberts <Brigantia@compuserve.com> >>Subject: Re: Pope On A Rope >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net> >>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Pope On A Rope >>Date: Mon, 08 Feb 99 16:22:13 PST >>The issue with Popey is not what imaginary experience he is >>claiming - to fantasise is his perogative - but that this >>'experience' took place *before* he was involved with the MOD. >>He has, on several occasions, stated he had no interest in or >>knowledge of UFOs *prior* to working at the MOD. >I'm afraid our friend shows his hand here. We are informed, >with precisely no evidence bearing one way or another on the >question, that Nick Pope's (er, excuse me, "Popey's") experience >was "imaginary." How do we know? Jerry, The question we Brits, ever polite and helpful, yet not noted for our incredible gullibility, might ask isn't, "how can we determine if one's 'alien abduction' claims may conceivably be removed from factual reality', rather than, "is there any evidence which might help substantiate your claims, sir?". That's e-v-i-d-e... you'll find it in a dictionary. >Pope's alleged crime here seems about as serious as that of the >debunking writer who claims, at the outset of a UFO-bashing book >or lecture, that he "would love to believe" in visiting aliens >and that he looked at the evidence "hoping" to find such. Uh >huh. >Anybody who believes that, please contact me -- I've got a great >price on a bridge in Brooklyn. Does it come replete with a paradigm challenging, scientifically founded and *immensely credible* to ufology, 'alien abduction' stor... don't temp us, Jerry. >The real reason here appears to be to punish Pope for the heresy >of (1) thinking UFOs may represent something important, possibly >including (gasp!) extraterrestrial visitation... Yes. What's your point. >... and (2) undergoing an abduction experience, than which >nothing is more deserving of the stake in some quarters. Has he actually claimed to have undergone an 'abduction experience', i.e., kidnapped by beings from another planet, dimension, Texas, whatever? The 'Sunday Times' article, whilst maintaining that Nick acknowledges being 'abducted', states that "Pope refused to confirm or deny the claim", and for some reason never actually quotes Nick Pope at all. I don't know, however, I do know that during the on-line (IRC) 'United Kingdom UFO Network' conference with Nick Pope, on 23rd May 1998, the following exchange took place: <Nesssus> Hi again Nick, What makes you feel that you was abducted? <Nick_Pope> I don't recall ever claiming that I had been! LOL. Presuming that's not 'Lots of Lies' and trusting you will note that over here, one is not an alien abductee, 'you was abducted'. No messin'. Until Nick can be documented as making such a claim, it all seems to be speculation. Unless, of course, there's evidence that he previously had, in which case, that's another matter. James.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 18 Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality From: Judith Dale <judithdale@earthlink.net> Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 19:55:17 -0800 Fwd Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 09:59:40 -0500 Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 03:38:47 -0800 >From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality <snip> >My point is, that all of these can be 're-set', sent to >never-never land or an endless loop by a simple electrical >discharge, if it is strong enough. A bolt of lightning will do, >or sometimes just the static from a rug. ><snip> Hi Larry, Leanne, and all, At the time the events occurred in my life, I was pretty low tech. No computer or other such electronic devices. Just the clock radio, automatic coffee maker, TV, and stereo. The coffee maker did it's thing. Came on, brewed the coffee, and turned off after an hour, as it is supposed to. So, I got up to brewed warm, not hot coffee, with the on/off indicator light dark. As far as I could tell, the only piece of equipment affected, was the clock radio. The implication of this, to me, was that the clock radio had specifically been interfered with, so that it would not come on and disturb the event. Regards, Judith
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 18 Re: 'Confirmation' - Congratulations! From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com> Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 10:06:00 -0500 Fwd Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 10:06:00 -0500 Subject: Re: 'Confirmation' - Congratulations! :: : Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 23:12:37 EST To: updates@globalserve.net : Subject: Re: 'Confirmation' - Congratulations! : : : A very few of you I call my friends, some of you I never met.... until tonight. Let me add to the adulations and congratulations.... WELL DONE MEN... you did good for us all. And NBC wasn't half bad needer. Hear we go again with the Dylan stuff.... I would hope that he was right when he said, "And the times, they are a changin" Were you all here right now, I'd give you all a wet sloppy kiss right smack on the lips.... thank you, thank you very much. Mark Carlotto Jerome Clark Robert Davi Don Ecker John Greenwald Budd Hopkins David Jacobs Jack Kasher Roger Leir Michael Lindemann John Mack Edgar Mitchell Derrel Sims Whitley Strieber Mark Wolper and NBC Dr. James S. Mortellaro, Ph.D.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 18 Re: 'Confirmation' - Congratulations! From: Lesley Cluff <manitou@fox.nstn.ca> Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 01:09:29 -0500 Fwd Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 10:30:18 -0500 Subject: Re: 'Confirmation' - Congratulations! >From: Stephen G. Bassett <ParadigmRG@aol.com> >To: updates@globalserve.net >Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 22:10:21 EST >Subject: 'Confirmation' - Congratulations! I agree it was likely one of the best documentaries on UFOs and aliens and all that stuff that I have ever seen. But I have one comment --- Mr. Klass has no credibility anymore. His attitude that its nothing but natural phenomena, based on the idea that UFOs of any description or 'other people' in this universe is "impossible" is now out of date thanks to new technologies which can examine far deeper and more thoroughly than ever before. While serious researchers and even producers of documentaries are making use of the new equipment, etc, Mr. Klass doesn't seem to be doing the same thing. When the subject of the reality of UFOs was based on anecdotes and guesses, he could get away with his skepticism and could argue very well in favour of more mundane explanations for what people saw in the sky, on the ground, etc. But now the interest in the subject has grown, there seems to be more money, to pay for the tests and seriously research the subject with as much scientific method as possible. UFO people are now way ahead of Klass. Whenever I see him in a documentary these days, he looks more and more like an old fool who refuses to see or believe anything beyond the nose on his face - even when he's tripping over the truth. Why, oh why, do producers of UFO documentaries, seem to insist on including this man? Have we not come far enough that simply presenting hard evidence, and following through the check process to determine its validity, is enough to balance the whole, without Klass? Cut the Klass bits out and the rest of the program was very, very fascinating! Lesley -- Lesley Cluff, Ontario, Canada manitou@fox.nstn.ca
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 18 Re: 'Confirmation' - Congratulations! From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net> Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 01:20:18 -0500 Fwd Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 10:40:02 -0500 Subject: Re: 'Confirmation' - Congratulations! >From: Stephen G. Bassett <ParadigmRG@aol.com> >To: updates@globalserve.net >Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 22:10:21 EST >Subject: 'Confirmation' - Congratulations!!!!! >Congratulations to: > Mark Carlotto > Jerome Clark > Robert Davi > Don Ecker > John Greenwald > Budd Hopkins > David Jacobs > Jack Kasher > Roger Leir > Michael Lindemann > John Mack > Edgar Mitchell > Derrel Sims > Whitley Strieber > Mark Wolper and > NBC >For initiating, creating and completing a landmark documentary. >So many fine documentaries have been made, so much work, all >have made a difference. But this work was the right material, >with the right presentation at the right time. It will have >impact on the media, the public and, most importantly, the >politics. Hello Steve, Hi All, I just want to echo Stephen's remarks. I was impressed. I was most impressed with the testing results on the recovered Implant. (There's a little bone the skeptics can have a good chew on!) I can't wait to hear them "explain" the results of that test where the scientists couldn't identify the composition (element _unknown_!) of the outer-coating of the implant. Let em take it up with the scientists that performed the analysis! <G> The evidence for a _real_, _physical_ phenomenon is begining to surface. I hope I'm not drooling too much. Ghod knows we've had so little to celebrate about. This was an important program. Even if the 'host' was a little hokey; skulking around in the dark in a London Fog raincoat using that 'David Carradine' raspy whisper. It was interesting to see the tables turned on Mr Klass and his errand-boy Joe Nickel. Their empty 'arguments' didn't look, or sound, so good against the backdrop of all the evidence that was presented. Some folks will never believe no matter how much evidence is presented. For them I am truly sorry. It will be the ones who were inflexible and unwilling to open their minds that will suffer the most. Many of us who have taken the risk and come forward to report, have experienced a _lot_ of abuse at the hands of the hard core skeptics. I hope that one day they will all realize that they were beating up on the very ones that were trying to open their eyes. And at no small personal expense. Cosmic Law decrees: "What cometh around, also doth goeth around"! <G> Maybe one day we'll be debating a thread about different psychosocial theories to explain why some people are so terminally closed-minded! <EG> Congrats Whitley and all concerned. Very well done. And about time too! *John Velez, Webmaster IF-AIC *With finger poised over the 'send' button for a post titled: "We Tried To Warn You!" <EG> ________________________________________________ jvif@spacelab.net INTRUDERS FOUNDATION/ABDUCTION INFORMATION CENTER http://www.if-aic.com "Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind." ________________________________________________
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 18 Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com> Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 01:51:19 EST Fwd Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 10:44:37 -0500 Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >From: Tim D. Brigham <devilsad@ksinc.net> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 09:46:44 -0600 <snip> >>As Frank Herbert said in Dune, "Fear is the mind killer.... it >>is the little death which causes total obliteration...." We >>face our fear. Do you who fear, face yours? >Indeed, but would accept such truth if it meant discovering that >a part of your life you have spent much energy and time dealing >with, and in some sense, accepting as truth - an abduction >event- was actually explainable as something else? It works >both ways. >As far as not letting anyone know the truth because it would >"destroy their life paradigm" or some such, well, thanks for >protecting us, but isn't that the same thing that 'believers' so >angrily accuse the US government of in these matters? Again, it >works both ways. If you live with a paradigm in which alien >abductions exist as undeniable fact, how does that differ from >one who lives with a paradigm in which they undeniably don't? Missing the point, Tim... please allow me to attempt finding it for you. Personally, I do not live with a paradigm in which alien abduction exists as undeniable fact. My argument is that too many skeptics live with a paradigm in which they do not. Simple fact. I am open to hear logic and reason for or against alien intervention. Thus far, and from my perspective, I have heard nothing to the contrary of alien intervention. Swamp gas, Venus, Weather balloons, Ultra Lights flying in formation etc. But nothing which would disprove that which exists in my memory, unaided by hypnosis, drugs or Gripple Dripple. My mind is open. Perhaps yours and certainly many others, is closed to the possibility of my memory being correct. A thing is true or it is not true. In time, we shall all know the truth. At present, neither of us can be certain of it. >It's easier to live with a belief, even if that belief isn't the >most popular one on the planet (however, in the case of belief >in alien abductions, believers certainly aren't alone), than it >is to admit that you _don't_ know what the hell is going on, and >to not buy into anyone who says that they do. >"Better to go hungry than to feast on lies." Thus far, the only thing in my life which prompts belief is my own recollection. I freely admit, and have done so right here on this List in past posts, that I do not know whether my memory is accurate. But until you or anyone else can prove that it is not, or until I or someone like me can prove otherwise, we shall remain at stalemate. That it is possible, is all the skepticism I shall tolerate from where I sit. 'Tis better to die hungry and be the feast of flies than to attempt to feed on lies, which is death. Jim Mortellaro
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 18 Re: 'Implants' - Confirmed? From: Mike Farrell <mikefarr@midcoast.com.au> Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 18:22:37 +1100 Fwd Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 10:55:59 -0500 Subject: Re: 'Implants' - Confirmed? ___________________________ Hello Abduction Researchers, I've just received a most disturbing and enlightening message about the "real" purpose of "alien implants", if indeed they exist, as popularized on recent programs like 'Confirmation'. Disturbing, because our full potential as human beings could be denied as a result of this - and enlightening, because this idea could empower us to explore the possibilities that may be prevented by so-called "alien implants". What you are about to read makes more sense to me that any previous explanations like 'tracking-devices', 'monitoring, storage and communication devices', or 'soul-catchers', etc. My reason for informing you is to find out if any one else out there has heard about this purpose for 'alien implants'. I have not found references to this idea in the available UFO literature. If you have more information, would you please share it with us? The following is a real message from a real abductee, who I have known for many years as an honest & forthright family man, in a high-profile job that demands accuracy and good judgement. He remains anonymous, because the lives of many people depend on his work, and his employers would not be as understanding about all this as we usually are. Please give us some feedback on this idea! Thank You! __________________________ Hi Mike, Having had what could be called an interesting experience, I have been "told" the reason for some implants. One of the reasons is that during the early 90s I experienced several very strong out of body experiences or Astral traveling. During these events I visited several places that were beyond imagination for beauty and complexity. On one of these trips I viewed several other realities. I have been told that implants are a blocking device to stop the "New Generation" of the human species from using these new powers and that if un-checked, the human beings would be able to travel and communicate with literally thousands of races in the universe. The 'greys' want to stop this evolution until they have completed their agenda. I have visited several sites on the internet about this Phenmenon of remote viewing and each time have been disconected and my machine interfered with. Something is going on at the moment and 'It' is worrying me! Regards, AC __________________________ Think Globally-Act Locally! Mike Farrell Global UFO Newsvideo Exchange Project Director and List Moderator http://www.fan.net.au/~tkbnetw/mikes.htm http://www.ufor.asn.au
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 18 Re: Pope On A Rope From: AlienHype@aol.com Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 03:12:56 EST Fwd Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 11:35:19 -0500 Subject: Re: Pope On A Rope >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net> >Subject: Re: Pope On A Rope >Date: Wed, 17 Feb 99 10:56:21 PST >>Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 12:54:09 -0500 >>From: Andy Roberts <Brigantia@compuserve.com> >>Subject: Re: Pope On A Rope >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >That Pope has not provided evidence tells us only that he has >not provided evidence. Got that? It tells us nothing about >whether the experience was imaginary or not. To make that >determination, we need to know more than your highly biased >opinion. >>- Pope claims he had no knowledge in or interest of UFOs prior >>to working on the UFO desk at the MOD >>- Pope claims the information he gleaned vis a vis UFOs whilst >>_at_ the MOD is the truth, he even hints at things he knows >>which he can't reveal to us mere mortals >I very much doubt that Pope has used the phrase "mere mortals". >Let's see some specific quotes here to determine context and >accuracy of paraphrase. Or are you simply employing cheap >sarcasm in place of a rational argument? Well, said Jerry. Mr Roberts and his group seem to have the attitude that if your opinion differs from theirs you are either full of delusions, making it all up for attention, or part of the lunatic-fringe. This group of ufologists in the UK, involved in the forming of I.U.N UK, appear to be trying to force anyone who differs with them into submission or hound them out of ufology. It smacks of a full-out effort by 'intelligence' groups to suppress research by ufologists. This simply cannot be allowed to happen. If you search the UpDates archive at Ufomind you'll see a deliberate pattern of action by these individuals - none of which has anything to do with research into the subject matter. >Or to put it another way: >Why the paranoia here, or -- more to the point -- the frantic >desire by Andy and Dennis to change the subject? Or is the >answer all too obvious? >>Sorry if all this goes over old ground again. We British are >>like that with _facts_ we like to grip them and worry them until >>something comes out. >I sure hope you don't break your arm congratulating yourself and >a whole islandful of countrymen there. And thanks, too, for >alerting all of us foreigners to our indifference to facts. All >I can say is, we do our best. Jerry you have to understand - these are the self-appointed 'elite' of British ufology - they spend their days sharing and cross-fertilising each others posts when the need to destroy cases and people comes up. In reality they are a group of highly-motivated and agressive predators who are well organised and will stop at nothing to suppress and debunk all aspects of anything 'ET', feeding the continuing confusion in ufology.. >Or are you simply employing cheap >sarcasm in place of a rational argument? >Why the paranoia here, or -- more to the point -- the frantic >desire by Andy and Dennis to change the subject? Or is the >answer all too obvious? I do not fear the psychology of ridicule that people like this employ or asking questions about motivation and reasons for their being in ufology. It just seems rather pointless behaviour to me unless there's a hidden agenda. Max Burns
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 18 Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net> Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 03:29:22 -0500 Fwd Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 11:36:59 -0500 Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 08:58:47 -0800 >From: Judith Dale <judithdale@earthlink.net> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >I have a close friend, who infact was psychiatrically >hospitalized back in 1956 or '57, due to becoming quite >hysterical as the result of intrusions and 'abductions'. Aside >from one event that occurred in her childhood, involving >'glowing beings' visiting her, all of the rest of the events in >her life began after a 'football field' size UFO hovered for an >hour or so over the Airforce base she and her family lived on. <snip> >A couple of years later, when they were stationed in >Alaska, my friend apparently became quite 'unglued', resulting >in her hospitalization. At the military hospital no less. She >comments now, that the staff and doctors there, were very clear >with her, that she was 'crazy', and couldn't possibly be being >'bothered' by aliens. >Although, my friend's experience occurred in the '50's, I bring >it up only as an example of what can and has occurred to people >who were open and honest about their experiences. Judith, Is there any way you can get your friend's medical records, so we can document that all this really happened? You know that I'm not questioning your honesty, or your friend's. But as you may have seen me (and others) say before on this list, we've got to turn some of this anecdotal abduction evidence into something much more solid. If we had proof (in the form of medical records) that your friend really was hospitalized back in the '50s for what sounds like an alien abduction, it would be a big advance for the field. Many thanks for considering this, Greg Sandow
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 18 Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality From: Leanne Martin <leanne_martin@hotmail.com> Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 01:41:57 PST Fwd Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 11:41:16 -0500 Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 08:44:01 -0500 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >From: Steven Kaeser <konsulting@pop.digiweb.com> >Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >Larry, and list- >Electromagetic Pulse effects aren't the same as voltage surges, >which is the primary problem one has around thunderstorms >(although both can cause serious problems for electronics). One >involves an electromagnetic field that affects the flow of >electrons, while the other involves transient voltage "spikes" >that can overwhelm unprotected circuits (i.e. microchips) and >burn out some sensitive devices. >There was an interesting report on 20/20 last week regarding EM >weopons, and their impact on electronics. The U.S. military >didn't weigh in on the subject, which is probably where the real >expertise is located, but a private researcher who is familiar >with the subject had designed a device in his garage that shut >down a car, heart monitoring device, and (of course) a couple of >computers. Steve and Larry, (You caught up <G>) Precisely the reason I asked the question in the first place ... Judith, Any answers yet? It may rather relevant Regards, Leanne ];-)
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 18 'Confirmation' - New York Times Blinks From: Ignatius Graffeo <Ufoseek@aol.com> Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 08:45:09 EST Fwd Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 11:53:45 -0500 Subject: 'Confirmation' - New York Times Blinks Following this editorial opinion is the New York Times review of 'Confirmation: The Hard Evidence of Aliens Among Us?' The NY Times (no surprise) takes the hardline position of denial until "real" proof is presented and focused too closely on the negative "ridicule factor" that NBC News distastefully attached to it. NBC calling both sides of the coin here to garner "sweeps" ratings while adding its own laughable 'spin-doctoring', using an incredulous host (did you notice that weird heavy black cape he wore?). Actor Robert Davi looked like a hybrid of Dr. Frankensien and Igor. The truth is plainly evident behind the makeup! -Ufoseek@aol.com ---------------------------------- NBC's 'Aliens' riddled with questions John Martin - New York Times Syndicate The first thing I want to tell you about "Confirmation: The Hard Evidence of Aliens Among Us?" (NBC at 8) is that you should take a close look at the title. Notice that question mark at the end? It should tell you that the two-hour-long February ratings "sweeps" special contains "evidence" that is dubious at best and that a word as unequivocal as "confirmation" is ridiculously misplaced. Next, notice that the host is actor Robert Davi. If NBC ever digs up anything close to confirmation it will be Tom Brokaw or, at least, Jane Pauley and Stone Phillips delivering the news, not the grim-faced co-star of NBC's "Profiler." This freak show is as indefensible as the press release (also dotted with questions marks) that arrived with it. For example, NBC boasts that the special contains "eyewitness accounts from police who've witnessed alien craft." In fact, the Ohio police officer makes a point of saying he doesn't know what he saw. Minor detail? As to the footage of an operation to remove what a man says he believes is an alien implant, again NBC calls it "alleged." There's a chance we've been visited. There's a chance people have been abducted. But what's the chance that in the 52 years since the alleged Roswell UFO crash everyone supposedly involved in the cover-up carried the secret to their grave? What is certain is that thousands of flying saucer hoaxes have been exposed and scores of authors and newsletter editors are making a lot of money from the UFO-conspiracy/alien abduction industry. And I'll go out on a limb here and suggest that there are as many people in mental institutions who are convinced they are Jesus Christ as there are people who believe they've been abducted by aliens. Confirmation? Hard evidence? We're still waiting. ____________________________________ Keeping you informed with the latest UFO and alternative news: UFOSEEK... For the Source! http://www.ufoseek.org
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 18 Re: Riddle of the Skies - Part 3 From: Tony Spurrier <TSpurrier@compuserve.com> Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 08:59:35 -0500 Fwd Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 12:09:22 -0500 Subject: Re: Riddle of the Skies - Part 3 >From: Tim Matthews <matthews@zetnet.co.uk> >To: "UFO UpDates - Toronto" <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: Re: Riddle of the Skies - Part 3 >Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 13:58:41 -0000 >>We found that odd, we couldn't remember Jean saying that she'd >>witnessed the triangle, but we may be wrong. >This is very odd especially as it is clear that the footage >relating to their supposed sighting is out of focus. >Was there an actual triangle shown? Tim, Just for clarification, I used the word 'triangle' as this was Neil's description of the alleged object on the footage he looked at. This was the particular piece Jean claims to have witnessed firsthand. Tony
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 18 Re: Robert Todd On MJ-12 From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com> Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 09:23:42 EST Fwd Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 12:13:13 -0500 Subject: Re: Robert Todd On MJ-12 >From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: Re: Robert Todd On MJ-12 >Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 19:11:05 -0400 >>From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com> >>Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 20:24:29 EST >>To: updates@globalserve.net >>Subject: Re: Robert Todd On MJ-12 >>>From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net> >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >>>Subject: Re: Robert Todd On MJ-12 >>>Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 08:32:45 -0400 >><snip> >>>I certainly appreciate the calm tone of Kevin's posting. >>Thank you, Stan. >><snip> >>>Bob Wood's document examiner, Mr. Black, has already >>>professionally stated that the TF memo typeface is appropriate >>>for the time frame . That will be published shortly if it hasn't >>>been already. >>Did he use a complete strike up of the various typefaces as did >>the questioned document examiner that you contacted? >Black hasn't published it yet. But certainly the document >examiner that I talked to did not tell me that he had done a >report of any kind. He did express an opinion. Is this published >somewhere? Do you have a copy? He has offered a number of oral reports. He told you specifically what he had found and suggested that you "wash your hands of the whole thing." Why do you need a written report when you already have all the relevant information from the man, including his professional opinion that the MJ-12 documents, including the EBD and the Truman memo are fake? >>>Nobody seems to be mentioning that it was Tim Good in the UK >>>that first published the EBD. >>This could be because Barry Greenwood established that Good had >received his copies of the EBD from a "CIA" source who turned >>out to be Moore. Greenwood did a devastating expose of how he >>was able to prove that that Good's copy came from Moore. I even >>talked about it in A History of UFO Crashes. (Hey, everyone else >>is mentioning their books, so I thought I would join in.) >My recollection is that Good's copy was shown not to be from >Moore. As a matter of fact it makes little sense that it would >have since Good published before Moore published portions of a >few pages. I might add that the copies I have distributed have >all been clean copies. I even proovided FUFOR with their first >clean copy. All of this is irrelevant. Barry Greenwood established through the physical evidence that Moore is the source of Good's copy of the MJ-12 documents. Who published what when is not important here. >>>Bill Moore was indeed given to playing games. That is a far cry >>>from him and Jaime being professional document forgers. >>No one said they were professionals. And didn't Moore basically >>admit that he had "retyped" the Aquarius Telex, added the >>headings in a cut and paste job, and then admit that the MJ-12 >>reference wasn't there in the first place? >><snip> >>>I have been told that forgers are normally very very careful to >>>do nothing that calls their work into question. That is >>>certainly not the case here. with the unusual Classification, >>>traceable paper etc Kevin is aware that I have dealt at length >>>with his objections to the MJ-12 documents in my 37 page, l994, >>>paper "Operation Majestic 12? YES!". I am pleased that at least >>>I am not being named as a forger. Even Phil Klass hasn't gone >>>that far. >>Certainly aware of the paper but don't buy the arguments. >>>While most on this list are probably aware that Kevin and I have >>>had strong differences, they may not be as aware that the >>>communicatons between Kevin and Don Schmitt and Bill and Jaime >>>were as I recall much stronger. >>Please leave me out of that. Schmitt was the one allegedly in >>contact with Moore and Shandera. As far as I know, I have never >>spoken to Bill Moore and met Shandera once, in Roswell, in 1997 >>and we didn't talk about MJ-12 or anything like that. He was >>busy trying to convince me that J. Bond Johnson hadn't said that >>Ramey told him, Johnson, that the debris was from a balloon. I >>didn't buy that argument either. >Obviously we have different views of the history of this >discussion. Unfortunately I recall that in History of UFO >Crashes on page 1, it was claimed that your article in the UFO >Encyclopedia had dismissed Roswell.. However, Roswell is >nowhere mentioned in that Encyclopedia' And this is relevant how? It does not say that and you know it. It says that I had dismissed all the reports of crashed saucers that I had heard when I wrote the entry of them for the UFO Encyclopedia in 1979. In A History of UFO Crashes, I do say that the road was littered with crashed saucer tales and included Roswell in that to make a point. KRandle
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 19 Important Update & USA Today Ad. From: The Kairos <thekairos@the-word-is-truth.org> Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 00:59:51 -0500 Fwd Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 09:42:35 -0500 Subject: Important Update & USA Today Ad. Hello, I would like to call your attention to the USA TODAY on Friday, February 19th. [Page 11a] You will find there a prominent notice from the International Space Sciences Organization calling attention to a clear pattern of serious consideration of the "Unidentified Flying Object" phenomenon by the United States Government, and also a surprising fact of Cold War history only recently coming to light. Timed with this placement, various updates have been made to my web site at www.TheWordIsTruth.org. Please pay a visit, and pass this message along to others who may be interested. Very best, J O S E P H F I R M A G E Founder & Chairman ______________________________________ International Space Sciences Organization
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 19 Re: STS-48 Debunked? From: Mike Farrell <mikefarr@midcoast.com.au> Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 02:13:57 +1100 Fwd Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 10:08:30 -0500 Subject: Re: STS-48 Debunked? Hello, Due to new information posted by NASA spokesman, James Oberg, we have reason to re-examine the infamous UFO footage of Shuttle flight STS-48 from Sept.15, 1991. Now, almost 8 years later, we are still divided on the truth of this matter. The skeptics say "ice crystals", the believers say "spacecraft", and the debunkers say the rest of us don't know what we're looking at. Here's my simple question to Mr. Oberg and his pointed reply. Let's see if we can resolve this matter and then ask, how will these results affect the analysis of the more recent Shuttle Footage of STS-80 in Dec.'96, showing yet more "ice crystals" that appear to rise from the earth's surface and other "ice crystals" that appear to join up in a triangular formation in earth's orbit? Could we be making something out of nothing? Or is it all a matter of perception and agenda? Have a look and decide for yourself! _______________ Hello Mr. Oberg, Thank you for your recent reply to the posting on new information about the STS-48 Footage. While I have your ear, may I ask you one simple question about an aspect of that film that has always troubled me, as a long time UFO researcher in Australia. After all, the shuttle was over our heads when all this supposedly took place!;- Your arguments sound resonable, and certainly any serious and sensible researcher does not want to see "pink elephants" where there are none. But I've always been troubled by that one object that seems to rise up from the atmosphere, move slowly to the left, then pause for a second, then makes a sharp right angle turn and shoots off to the right into space. My question about this is, have you ever personally seen or do you know about any other shuttle footage that is available for the public to see, that would show "ice crystals" moving in the exact same manner, especially with a right angle turn and increase in speed? You asked the question: "how many other videos of drifting objects hit by jet plumes would it take to persuade you that it was a normal space flight occurrence?" Answer: It would only take one other film showing the exact same movements to convince me. Do such other films exist and how can we see them? Thank You for taking the time to revisit this "can of worms" or "urine dump", as the case may be!;- Think Globally-Act Locally! Mike Farrell Director of Project GUFONE %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% Here's the reply from Mr. Oberg: From: JamesOberg@aol.com Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 07:15:48 EST To: mikefarr@midcoast.com.au Subject: Re: Simple Question on STS-48 In a message dated 2/17/99 6:10:51 PM Central Standard Time, mikefarr@midcoast.com.au writes: >My question about this is, have you ever personally seen or do >you know about any other shuttle footage that is available for >the public to see, that would show "ice crystals" moving in the >exact same manner, especially with a right angle turn and >increase in speed? Yes, I'll be posting them on the ABCNEWS.COM science page later today... you can also find a link from my home page at www.jamesoberg.com. The non-ice theories _depend_ on ignoring available shuttle data and on the naivite and enforced ignorance of the target audience -- _you_ are the target! *************************************************************************
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 19 Re: Pope On A Rope From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net> Date: Thu, 18 Feb 99 10:32:01 PST Fwd Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 10:10:28 -0500 Subject: Re: Pope On A Rope >Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 12:55:35 -0600 (CST) >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net> >Subject: Re: Pope On A Rope >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net> >>Subject: Re: Pope On A Rope >>Date: Tue, 16 Feb 99 12:40:31 PST Dennis, >>The attempt at moral equivalency here staggers the mind. >Let me just say this: I knew Ralph Noyes (who held either the >same or very similar job as Pope) and Nick Pope is no Ralph >Noyes. By that, I mean (mostly) that Noyes worked the UFO desk >in the Ministry of Defence as well -- and knew what he didn't >know. Of course Pope's being no Noyes (a subject on which I have precisely no opinion) does not make Pope a Corso. >As for equivalent, here's what I had in mind. Nick Pope was >really who he said was. So was Corso (well, to some extent). >Both men then wrote hugely successful (and some would say >influential) books that -- uh, how shall I say this? -- inflated >both their role in and insider knowledge of, the UFO phenomenon. >I do not equate the contents of the two books, as Corso's was >entirely a work of fiction. In fact, if I were going to be fair, >which, alas, we know I never am, I would probably place a good >part of the blame for Corso's fiction on his co-author. Here, I guess, you are more charitable than I. Corso's book is just one huge whopper after another, so much so that it is hard, maybe impossible, to believe that the late colonel was not complicit in ... well, literary fraud is not too strong a word, in my judgment. A couple of years, while visiting various New York publishers, I met Corso's editor, whose remarks indicated that Corso was well aware of what was inside the then-unpublished volume. Of course I hadn't read it at the time. I asked the man what he thought of Corso's revelations, and he said he'd prefer not to express his private opinion. After the book came out and I read it (or the half of it I managed to get through, anyway), I understood why. The difference between Pope and Corso is this: Pope behaved disingenuously about an experience that he privately believed had happened to him but which he did not wish to own up to in public. Corso spoke openly about experiences that, all evidence and reason tell us, he knew fully well never occurred in the real world. >Fair enough again, but that doesn't render Pope immune from >criticism if, as appears, he's been caught out playing loose >with some of his facts or claims. He can always take the >Friedman defense: "I don't know how that sentence got there." You and I really don't disagree much here. Yes, his lack of openness and his denials do open him to criticism. My point simply is that what he did, while not a model of perfect conduct, is understandable and, moreover, hardly rare in all sorts of human situations. In other words, on the scale of sins, this sort of thing comes in pretty close to the bottom. Jerry Clark
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 19 Re: Miami 'Circle' is Railroad Turntable From: Kathleen Andersen <KAnder6444@aol.com> Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 11:37:27 EST Fwd Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 10:13:25 -0500 Subject: Re: Miami 'Circle' is Railroad Turntable >Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 05:04:41 -0700 >From: Robert A.M. Stephens <sti3818@montana.com> >To: UFO Updates Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>, >Subject: Miami 'Circle' is Railroad Turntable >1. A 6 mile long elevated standard gauge RR bed from the >FECRwy. junction in western Miami, then curve through downtown >Miami proper, crossing the waterway-mud area in question, then >terminating with a branch that would come to the ocean side >stead. >2. A twin turntable pier structure for a low slung Howe-Truss >center span bridge. (the 'Circle' in question). >The remnants of native American artifacts in the area is a >result of the deep muck removal of material on the site in the >attempt to form a more stable road bed. I think your explaination sounds very logical. I was just curiious if the answer is this simple. NBC news reports this morning that archeologist do not know how old the circle is, nor its purpose. I just returned last night from Florida and the news there is that it might be a calendar showing solstice and equinox. Either way...its a fascinating find. Kathleen Andersen Mufon State Section Director Seattle
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 19 Re: Pope On A Rope From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net> Date: Thu, 18 Feb 99 11:45:34 PST Fwd Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 10:16:09 -0500 Subject: Re: Pope On A Rope >Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 22:09:41 -0500 >From: James Easton <pulsar@compuserve.com> >Subject: UFO UpDate: Re: Pope On A Rope >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >The question we Brits, ever polite and helpful, yet not noted for >our incredible gullibility, might ask isn't, "how can we >determine if one's 'alien abduction' claims may conceivably be >removed from factual reality', rather than, "is there any >evidence which might help substantiate your claims, sir?". After several readings, I fear James's meaning continues to elude me. I am sure the problem is less incoherence of thought than sentence written in haste. (I hope readers of my postings, on which I have exhibited similar failings from time to time, will be charitable to me in turn.) Anyway, I can respond only generally, to state as follows: We Americans, at least in our best moments, prefer to answer questions, positively or negatively, on evidence. When none bearing on the matter is available, we defer judgment. Ex cathedra pronouncements, such as the one Andy Robert offered in place of insightful observation, are unhelpful. In other words, where the epistemological status of Nick Pope's abduction claim (if that is what it is) is concerned, there is nothing useful we can say at this stage. Is that so difficult to comprehend? Jerry Clark
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 19 Re: Ed Fouche From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com> Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 12:29:22 EST Fwd Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 10:23:59 -0500 Subject: Re: Ed Fouche >From: Nancy Davidson <nld1@ix.netcom.com> >Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 15:55:43 -0600 (CST) >To: updates@globalserve.net >Subject: Brad Steiger >>Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 01:03:00 -0800 >>From: Josh Goldstein <clearlt@pacbell.net> >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >>Subject: Ed Fouche >Hi - On one his postings about Ed Fouche, Josh Goldstein said >that Brad Steiger had dubious writing credentials. I had >also heard that Brad Steiger is not his real name. Brad Steiger's writing credentials are not dubious. He has been writing professional for more than thrity-five years. He has published more than 125 books on a variety of topics, many of which we are all interested in. Brad reports what he heards and draws the conclusions that he wants based on his interpretation of the facts as he knows them. He is among the first to admit when he makes a mistake and tries to repair it. But Brad is not a scientist, he is a writer of material on the strange. There are many things that Brad has written with which I don't agree, but we have had a number of long and interesting conversations about UFOs. He seems to accept, as authentic, the MJ-12 papers and I don't. That doesn't make Brad a bad guy. Like everyone, we have to look at what he writes and decided whether or not we want to accept it, just as we should do with anyone else. And yes, Brad is _now_ his real name.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 19 Re: Pope On A Rope From: Andy Roberts <Brigantia@compuserve.com> Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 13:13:14 -0500 Fwd Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 10:27:34 -0500 Subject: Re: Pope On A Rope To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net> Subject: Re: Pope On A Rope Date: Wed, 17 Feb 99 10:56:21 PST Jerry's continued attempts at evading the issue regarding Nick Pope are amusing and educative. >That Pope has not provided evidence tells us only that he has >not provided evidence. Got that? It tells us nothing about >whether the experience was imaginary or not. To make that >determination, we need to know more than your highly biased >opinion. The whole business is much sorrier and complicated than than Jerry. I'll make it simple again. Apologies to those who have actually understood what I'm getting at. This will be the last time, I promise. Even if Jerry still doesn't understand. * Pope claimed in the first draft of his first book that he had been involved in what you call an 'abduction'. * It didn't appear in the book and Pope subsequently denied it was ever there. It was, and was witnessed by Jenny Randles. *He also calimed no knowledge or interest in UFOs prior to his job at the MOD. *This is clearly wrong. Therefore, go figure. >I very much doubt that Pope has used the phrase "mere mortals". >Let's see some specific quotes here to determine context and >accuracy of paraphrase. Or are you simply employing cheap >sarcasm in place of a rational argument? Touche Jerry, or is that just touchy? >In full anticipation, of course, of the torrent of ridicule that >would wash over him should it be revealed that this was his own >personal abduction experience. And that, of course, is precisely >what happened. Whether he anticpiated ridicule or not is immaterial. The point is that a self styled 'expert' on UFOs who is taken seriously by a great number of people, and who makes money from same, has seriously misled (to say the least) those people. Now that concerns me. It should concern you too Jerry. >Oh, my. I guess I live in the larger world, where persons not >ordinarily thought of as pathological liars are disingenous all >the time when it comes to things they'd rather other people did >not want to know about, such as matters that could embarrass >them or open them to ridicule or worse. (Why, I'll bet that if >you did enough research, you could even find Presidents of the >United States who have conducted themselves in precisely that >fashion.) I guess St. Andy adheres to higher standards of divine >conduct than we mere mortals can manage. Oh, my sides! No Jerry I just expect published authors to have the good grace not to mislead the people who give them the easy living they enjoy. >Huh? What are the psychosociologists doing here? They're watching you Jerry. And wondering. >Why the paranoia here, or -- more to the point -- the frantic >desire by Andy and Dennis to change the subject? Or is the >answer all too obvious? No paranoia Jerry. Only the sincere desire to point out serious inconsistencies in an influential UFO 'researcher' and author's writings. It would be bad enough if Popey were claiming something provable - that he is claiming something for which the physical evidence is non existent makes the whole affair risible. And as I have said previously it throws into doubt *anything* Pope alleges or even hints at. Nick Redfern's recent statements about Pope's (lack) of UFO knowledge are also worth mentioning in this context. This isn't me being snidey either - I've told him all this to his face. I don't believe him and think the whole sequence of events has the odour of fish about it. >Or is the >answer all too obvious? No Jerry, it's not. Why can't you actually say what you mean instead of talking in riddles? It's not obvious, so please say what you mean. If only for the benefit of the less intelligent psychosociologists on the list. Happy Trails Andy
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 19 Auroral Activity Warning From: Brian Straight <brians@mdbs.com> Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 11:23:04 -0500 Fwd Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 10:35:24 -0500 Subject: Auroral Activity Warning Errol -- I occasionally get auroral warning reports like the one included here. Brian MIDDLE LATITUDE AURORAL ACTIVITY WARNING ISSUED: 03:25 UTC, 18 FEBRUARY /\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\ (To receive these warnings automatically via e-mail, subscribe using the form page at: http://solar.uleth.ca/solar/www/sublists.html) VALID BEGINNING AT: EFFECTIVE IMMEDIATELY VALID UNTIL: 19:00 UTC ON 20 FEBRUARY HIGH RISK PERIOD: 18 FEB (UTC days) MODERATE RISK PERIOD: 18 - 19 FEB PREDICTED ACTIVITY INDICES: 40, 20, 12, 10 (18 FEB - 21 FEB) POTENTIAL MAGNITUDE OF MIDDLE LATITUDE AURORAL ACTIVITY: MODERATE TO HIGH POTENTIAL DURATION OF THIS ACTIVITY: MAIN BELT = 18 TO 24 HOURS MINOR BELT = 24 TO 36 HOURS ESTIMATED OPTIMUM OBSERVING CONDITIONS: NEAR LOCAL MIDNIGHT EXPECTED LUNAR INTERFERENCE: NIL OVERALL OPPORTUNITY FOR OBSERVATIONS FROM MIDDLE LATITUDES: GOOD AURORAL ACTIVITY MAY BE OBSERVED APPROXIMATELY NORTH OF A LINE FROM... OREGON TO SOUTHERN IDAHO OR POSSIBLY NORTHERN UTAH TO WYOMING TO NEBRASKA TO IOWA TO ILLINOIS TO INDIANA TO OHIO TO PENNSYLVANIA TO DARK SKY SITES OF NEW YORK STATE AND POSSIBLY PARTS OF DELAWARE, KENTUCKY AND THE VIRGINIA'S. ACTIVITY MAY ALSO BE OBSERVED APPROXIMATELY NORTH OF A LINE FROM... UNITED KINGDOM AND POSSIBLY EXTREME NORTHERN PARTS OF FRANCE TO BELGIUM TO NORTHERN GERMANY TO NORTHERN POLAND TO NORTHERN RUSSIA INCLUDING ALL OF NORWAY, SWEDEN AND FINLAND. OBSERVATIONS FROM THESE MORE SOUTHERLY LOCATIONS WILL REQUIRE CONDITIONS TO REMAIN ABNORMALLY STRONG FOR AN ABNORMAL LENGTH OF TIME. ALTHOUGH THIS IS POSSIBLE, CONDITIONS ARE NOT EXPECTED TO REMAIN STRONGLY FAVORABLE FOR AURORAL STORMING UNTIL EUROPE IS IN DARKNESS AGAIN. NEVERTHELESS, IT WILL BE POSSIBLE. NEW ZEALAND AND SOUTHERN AUSTRALIA SHOULD BE FAIRLY WELL POSITIONED FOR OBSERVING ACTIVITY. NOTE: Serious observers interested in real-time conditions are encouraged to investigate the SWARM software at: http://solar.uleth.ca/solar/www/swarm.html SYNOPSIS... A strong interplanetary disturbance has impacted the Earth at 02:50 UTC on 18 February. This disturbance is pulling strong magnetic fields that are capable of producing strong to intense auroral activity. We are beginning to see strong substorming over the higher latitudes as well as attendant equatorward expansion of the auroral ovals. It appears this may end up being a fairly good opportunity for observing auroral activity over North America. This warning will remain active until 19:00 UTC on 19 February. It will then be updated, downgraded, or allowed to quietly expire. PLEASE REPORT OBSERVATIONS OF AURORAL ACTIVITY TO: http://solar.uleth.ca/solar/www/auroras.html CURRENT SPACECRAFT OBSERVATIONS OF AURORAL ACTIVITY CAN BE FOUND AT: http://solar.uleth.ca/solar/www/aurora.html ** End of Warning **
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 19 Re: On Ed Fouche Speaking at MUFON L.A. Meeting From: Diana Botsford <diana_botsford@hotmail.com> Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 11:08:13 PST Fwd Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 10:41:48 -0500 Subject: Re: On Ed Fouche Speaking at MUFON L.A. Meeting >Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 18:56:14 -0800 >From: Josh Goldstein <clearlt@pacbell.net> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: Re: On Ed Fouche Speaking at MUFON L.A. Meeting <snip> >Did you see any other supporting documents >regarding positions he held in military or civilian life. Hi Josh - I assume you are in Laughlin? I have only seen the discharge papers but they included listings of some of his key work. We compared the papers to those of my consultants and they matched up. He did work in electronics and did have crypto listed. Further than that, no - we haven't check him out. The difficult part of discerning Fouche's claims is that Alien Rapture itself is fiction. You have to determine what Fouche considers to be 'real' and what he has generated as plot devices. Good luck, and please, keep us posted. Diana Botsford Publisher/Community Manager UFO Community on MSN http://communities.msn.com/ufo - - - - - - "To follow knowledge like a sinking star, Beyond the utmost bound of human thought . . To strive, to seek, to find and not to yield." Tennyson's Ulysses
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 19 Phil Klass and The Trent Photos From: Royce J. Myers III <rjm3@sprintmail.com> Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 11:19:13 -0800 Fwd Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 10:53:04 -0500 Subject: Phil Klass and The Trent Photos Phil Klass is the antithesis of reason and common sense. The man will stop at nothing and use any explanation to discount any UFO case. His militant positon on the Trent photos is ridiculous. He was reaching for any explanation he could to debunk the photos and the witnesses. I interveiwed both Paul Trent and his wife in 1994 at their home in McMinville, Oregon. They were adamant that they believed they photographed a secret military aircraft at the time, _not_ a UFO (i.e.: aliens, et al). They don't even believe in aliens! They are among some of the most sincere people I have ever met. I didn't detect any kind of deception from them during my 3 hours conversation with them. Also, the same type of object was photographed again a few years later, this time in France by a pilot. Why NBC failed to use that information is beyond me. The NBC special has shown beyond a doubt that the photos are authentic. Phil is always crying how science is never used in these cases... Phil, ever hear of the Condon Committee? The Trent photos were not dismissed by that investigation. As for the statement made by Klass that the Trents were out for attention, that is complete speculation with no basis in fact of any kind. I'm wondering if Phil Klass ever took the time to interview the Trents...probably not. The Trents and their childeren were subjected to a great amount of ridicule when their photos became famous and for years following. In fact, the Trents made absolutely no money from the photos, the only thing they received was a trip to New York where they appeared on a program there. The Trents told me they had loaned their negatives to this program for them to use. This was the last of the negatives they ever saw. Since then the photos have been used in many documentaries, books, and so on. From what the Trents have told me, the negatives were in fact stolen from them. But they did not seek to recover them because of all the trouble the photos had caused. I wonder how much money has been made off those negatives since. If the Trents were out for money or fame, then why did they not pursue a course of action to reclaim their property and profit from the photos? Because financial gain was not their motive. They simply saw something strange in the sky and photographed it. The Trents (to my knowledge) still live quietly in McMinville, Oregon in a modest retirement complex. They live off a small retirement fund which they worked for all their lives. Mr.Trent (when I talked with him in 1994) was having problems walking and was in desparate need of an electric cart in order for him to be able to go anywhere. These are two honest people who honestly reported what they saw... hardly famous and hardly rich. Regards, Royce J. Myers III Eugene, Oregon
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 19 Re: Riddle of the Skies - Part 3 From: Neil Morris <neil@adm1.ph.man.ac.uk> Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 20:25:46 -0800 Fwd Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 10:58:37 -0500 Subject: Re: Riddle of the Skies - Part 3 >Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 08:59:35 -0500 >From: Tony Spurrier <TSpurrier@compuserve.com> >Subject: Re: Riddle of the Skies - Part 3 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >>From: Tim Matthews <matthews@zetnet.co.uk> >>To: "UFO UpDates - Toronto" <updates@globalserve.net> >>Subject: Re: Riddle of the Skies - Part 3 >>Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 13:58:41 -0000 >>>We found that odd, we couldn't remember Jean saying that >>>she'd witnessed the triangle, but we may be wrong. >>This is very odd especially as it is clear that the footage >>relating to their supposed sighting is out of focus. >>Was there an actual triangle shown? >Tim, >Just for clarification, I used the word 'triangle' as this was >Neil's description of the alleged object on the footage he >looked at. This was the particular piece Jean claims to have >witnessed firsthand. >Tony Tim, In the footage I enhanced, a triangular shape is well indicated and it's edges well defined. I am hoping to obtain some of the more dubious footage shortly. Neil. ------------------------------------------------------- Neil Morris@Home. Email: Neil@adm1.ph.man.ac.uk Web Site: http://adm2.ph.man.ac.uk/ -------------------------------------------------------
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 19 Re: 'Confirmation' - New York Times Blinks From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj@proaxis.com> Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 13:35:45 -0800 (PST) Fwd Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 11:12:08 -0500 Subject: Re: 'Confirmation' - New York Times Blinks >From: Ignatius Graffeo <Ufoseek@aol.com> >Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 08:45:09 EST >To: Updates@globalserve.net >Subject: 'Confirmation' - New York Times Blinks Opposing this TV program, Ignatius Graffeo writes: >For example, NBC boasts that the special contains "eyewitness >accounts from police who've witnessed alien craft." In fact, the >Ohio police officer makes a point of saying he doesn't know what >he saw. Minor detail? That's usually the point -- if a witness does't know what he saw -- he can't identify it as anything at all earthly or of man-made origin, then it remains unidentified and is a UFO. So if it wasn't at all earthly, the term "alien" was OK to use in
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 19 Re: 'Implants' - Confirmed? From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj@proaxis.com> Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 13:35:43 -0800 (PST) Fwd Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 11:14:19 -0500 Subject: Re: 'Implants' - Confirmed? >Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 18:22:37 +1100 >To: <updates@globalserve.net> >From: Mike Farrell <mikefarr@midcoast.com.au> >Subject: 'Implants' - Confirmed? >I've just received a most disturbing and enlightening message >about the "real" purpose of "alien implants", if indeed they >exist, as popularized on recent programs like 'Confirmation'. .. >My reason for informing you is to find out if any one else out >there has heard about this purpose for 'alien implants'. I have >not found references to this idea in the available UFO >literature. If you have more information, would you please share >it with us? >Hi Mike, >I have been told that implants are a blocking device to stop the >"New Generation" of the human species from using these new >powers and that if un-checked, the human beings would be able to >travel and communicate with literally thousands of races in the >universe. >The 'greys' want to stop this evolution until they have >completed their agenda. Mike, One doesn't necessarily believe what an ET conveys to an abductee. In this case, consider all the abductees who have had their implants disappear on them, or they fell out and were lost, plus those now that have been surgically removed. Do any of them report having suddenly gained an ability to travel and communicate with whatever alien races they wish? I haven't heard of it. One might more logically ask if abductees with implants feel they have gained strongly in their psychic abilities, since the time of their abduction when they received the implant? A considerable fraction of them might respond "yes," in which case one would again ask if any of them lost this increased psychic power if/when their implant was removed or disappeared.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 19 Re: 'Implants' - Confirmed? From: Jacquie Cosford <millpond@shaw.wave.ca> Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 23:15:22 -0500 Fwd Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 11:20:45 -0500 Subject: Re: 'Implants' - Confirmed? >Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 18:22:37 +1100 >To: <updates@globalserve.net> >From: Mike Farrell <mikefarr@midcoast.com.au> >Subject: 'Implants' - Confirmed? >___________________________ >Hello Abduction Researchers, >I've just received a most disturbing and enlightening message >about the "real" purpose of "alien implants", if indeed they >exist, as popularized on recent programs like 'Confirmation'. >Disturbing, because our full potential as human beings could be >denied as a result of this - and enlightening, because this idea >could empower us to explore the possibilities that may be >prevented by so-called "alien implants". >__________________________ >Hi Mike, >I have been told that implants are a blocking device to stop the >"New Generation" of the human species from using these new >powers and that if un-checked, the human beings would be able to >travel and communicate with literally thousands of races in the >universe. Dear list members: This is just a short response to the above quoted message and I apologize if my words are not scientifically technical enough for the many ufologists and scientists who frequent this List. Firstly, I believe that all human beings possess psychic ability but we tend to ignore those intuitive feelings while conscious. However, while falling asleep and in the sleeping state, our souls are free to explore this realm as I have had many experiences while in this state. Lately, while falling asleep, I've been hearing a very loud buzzing sound. This sound is difficult to explain but it isn't "auditory" in nature as it is "heard" in my head and felt as a vibration. My question is this... has anyone else recently been experiencing this? Regards to you all
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 19 Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality From: judithdale <judithdale@earthlink.net> Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 23:17:59 -0800 Fwd Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 11:32:17 -0500 Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 03:29:22 -0500 ><snip> >>A couple of years later, when they were stationed in >>Alaska, my friend apparently became quite 'unglued', resulting >>in her hospitalization. At the military hospital no less. She >>comments now, that the staff and doctors there, were very clear >>with her, that she was 'crazy', and couldn't possibly be being >>'bothered' by aliens. ><snip> >Is there any way you can get your friend's medical records, so >we can document that all this really happened? >You know that I'm not questioning your honesty, or your >friend's. But as you may have seen me (and others) say before on >this list, we've got to turn some of this anecdotal abduction >evidence into something much more solid. >If we had proof (in the form of medical records) that your >friend really was hospitalized back in the '50s for what sounds >like an alien abduction, it would be a big advance for the >field. Greetings Greg and all, The questions you raise are good ones, and I agree that more concrete evidence in the way of records would be helpful. I raised your questions to my friend's daughter. She was not very encouraging about obtaining a signed release of information from her mom, that could be sent to the hospital's medical records department. Her mom is dying of cancer. This is not an issue the daughter wants to raise with her mom at this time. She did tell me that she remembers her mom going to the hospital, and being there for quite some time. However, she did suggest I talk to her brother, who being somewhat older than she, may remember more. Further, from my own experience working in health care for the past 27 years, I doubt that the records even exist, any longer. I think that most hospitals destroy patient records after 10 yrs. Also, we are talking about a military hospital. I, myself, am not comfortable bringing up this subject with my friend, now. We last talked about it over Thanksgiving. The subject came up during a conversation regarding making peace with one's life and self before death. My friend did share info with me about some of her experiences. Info about physical burn like marks and strange rashes that occurred after some of the 'abductions'. The horror and sense of violation she experienced. She, briefly, described being taken onto a ship, but then, told me we had to change the subject. She was terrified that talking about 'them' would cause 'them 'to come back. She did tell me that these abductors weren't like the "angelic looking beings" that came to her when she was a child. In that situation, she was very young (I can't remember how old she said she was). She was bedridden due to severe chronic nose bleeds that were the result of tuberculosis. She said, "one day these 'glowing beings' appeared at the foot of my bed, and told me they'd healed me". From that point on, no more nose bleeds, and all evidence of active TB disappeared. She was able to get up and resume her life, after being bedridden for nearly a year. This sudden healing and return to health has been verified by her sisters. Infact, her family had been told that she was dying, so took this event as a miracle. This is what I know of this woman's situation. If I am able to learn more from this family, that can be helpful on this, the subject of the reality of abductions, I will speak up with it. I will say, that the reluctance I've encountered with this woman and her family, in talking about this issue, is one I've encountered before with other 'abductees', including myself. I only speak up now, because the issue seems to have hit a type of critical mass. I am certain, that as humans, we do not have to roll over and play victim to these events. We have brains, minds, spirit, and consciousness. We have primacy over our reality. Therefore, we have power. No more 'fiddling'. Intellectualizing over the issue of proof, ie: not enough, not good enough, etc., only serves to drain our power by keeping our attention off of the solution, IMHO. In my view, it is absolutely not okay that some of us are taken against our will. This is in violation of fundamental cosmic law, in my opinion. Of course, if we don't know how to exert our will (not like 'willpower'), and own our primacy in this world, then we are easy pickings. Whew, I'm getting carried away, here, so I'll stop, for now. Greg, you have a lovely way of asking your questions. I agree with the others on this List, who've commended you on your calm and down to earth approach. Regards, Judith
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 19 Re: Ed Fouche From: Josh Goldstein <clearlt@pacbell.net> Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 04:12:25 -0800 Fwd Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 11:36:31 -0500 Subject: Re: Ed Fouche >From: Nancy Davidson <nld1@ix.netcom.com> >Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 15:55:43 -0600 (CST) >To: updates@globalserve.net >Subject: Brad Steiger >>Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 01:03:00 -0800 >>From: Josh Goldstein <clearlt@pacbell.net> >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >>Subject: Ed Fouche >Hi - On one his postings about Ed Fouche, Josh Goldstein said >that Brad Steiger had dubious writing credentials. I had >also heard that Brad Steiger is not his real name. >Can Josh Goldstein shed some light on his comment. Also has >anybody read the book "Overlords" by David L Davidson. Thanks. Hi Nancy, Regarding Brad Steiger, what I meant was that in my opinion, some of the books he authored were a bit off the mark with their ratio of facts to fiction. I buzzed over to Burbank and witnessed Ed Fouche's presentation to MUFON LA. I had developed my first suspicions when I saw the first advertisement of his book. Wednesday's appearance was a confirmation of my suspicion that he could not provide any supporting evidence to help support his claim. Mr.Fouche told his background, his claims of working on many black projects, including within Area 51. He showed many slides, but nothing to support his classified positions beyond a couple of shots of him in an Air Force uniform years ago. However, through his sources he knows every black aircraft in every program at Area 51 or any other location. He knows the truth of the aliens and our government. He knows what is going on. What you need to know. Ed Fouche told a massive story before MUFON LA without attempting to validate any reality beyond his story. No, I didn't interrupt his show to pin him down. At the end of his talk he was mobbed with people asking him to answer their questions regarding the black world and aliens. They had taken every word as the new gospel and they asked him every question possible, except they missed asking him whether he truly was who he claimed to be. I did not want to spoil the freeding frenzy of true believers. Ed Fouche is a very good storyteller. Of course none of us mortals had yet seen his book - held up by publishing delays. I mean the guy may be who he claims to be. Who am I to ask? But after 30+ years following the bizarre circus that is a large part of the UFO field, I can't begin to count the many - the other men in black. The men who suddenly pop up in the field (like human crop circles), having grown out of the black world after learning the terrible truths of black programs. Now conscience says tell the people the truth. They tell great stories but truths need supports. More supports than other "unnamed sources in need to know positions". Sometimes evidence is missing yet the "truth" still sounds great for a while to many naive people. Eventually truth prevails, and in many cases the insider and his tale of the truth are revealed as faded mirages. I will email Mr.Fouche and ask him for some support of his claims as to his truth from deep inside the black world. Beyond that I was told a radio show asked to see his military discharge. Sure, he was in the service, doing what? I still have not found where anyone has undertaken to examine his background beyond the biography he has written. Perhaps I should suspend judgement until I read his book. I do hope it contains more than his presentation. Josh Goldstein MJ-13
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 19 Max Burns From: Andy Roberts <Brigantia@compuserve.com> Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 11:26:25 -0500 Fwd Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 11:52:07 -0500 Subject: Max Burns Max Burns goes to great pains to evade the truth about his current legal circumstances. Listers may feel this is not relevant to ufological investigation. But if Max is openly lying about his legal situation, what does that say about his ufological investigations? As to the nature of his 'crimes', that's immaterial, it's the attempts to deceive ufologists which perturb me. So, for the, ahem, record.... Max is currently on the run. Fact. He failed to appear in court to answer charges of huge Poll Tax arrears. A warrant without bail has been issued for his arrest. This warrant can be actioned by the police and will mean he will be taken into custody (then most probably bailed again). Max is also charged with extremely serious drug traffiking offences. Possession with intent to supply of 1000 tablets of amphetamine sulphate to be exact, among other charges. He is due to appear on these charges at Sheffield Crown Court on May 17th. As yet he has not been found guilty. But however he portrays himself he is not whiter than white, and seeks to cover up the depths to which he is involved in illegal activities. Therefore I think it reasonable to be suspicious about the allged 'facts' of any UFO investigation in which he is involved and for which he can produce no evidence. Happy Trials Andy
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 19 C-E: 'Confirmation' - The Elderly Gentleman From: Kenny Young <ufo@FUSE.NET> Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 11:13:24 -0500 Fwd Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 11:58:43 -0500 Subject: C-E: 'Confirmation' - The Elderly Gentleman In watching a video of the CONFIRMATION segment about the Trumbull County action this morning, one interesting part stood out which hasn't been discussed yet. The producers took pains to recount the events of Officer Melero from his dispatch to the strange event involving a blinding light and his cruiser 'shutting down.' On his way to the Samson Road vicinity, the officer encountered an 'elderly gentleman' who flagged him down to tell of a glowing object 'right above' his house. On the CONFIRMATION piece, the Elderly Gentleman, portrayed by an actor, is seen walking his dog and appearing in the headlights of the cruiser while the police officer is enroute to the scene of the UFO disturbance. With voice-over narration, the audience understands that this person has seen a UFO over his home. During my 1996 interview with Melero, he took great pains to talk about this person, stressing that the Elderly Gentleman was "lost" and wandering in the roadway. Melero was certain to give the impression that he was spooked by the kind chap and his plight, and stated: "I regret now that I didn't get his I.D." From the notes I have retained during the '96 interview, it was not said this elderly gentleman was walking his dog. This may have been added as part of the storyline for the program. The CONFIRMATION piece, while including the Elderly Gentleman segment, did not provide detail about his dazed and wandering state as Melero indicated in '96. (This is just one of the many items of this case which was not covered) I thought this would be something of interest to add, which happened prior to the shut-down of the patrol car. Kenny Young -- UFO Research
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 19 Bloemfontein, South Africa Case - Disclaimer From: Mike Farrell <mikefarr@midcoast.com.au> Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 03:46:19 +1100 Fwd Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 12:06:11 -0500 Subject: Bloemfontein, South Africa Case - Disclaimer _______________________ Please post this message to all Mailing Lists that have issued details of this UFO sighting on the 5 FEB 1999 over Bloemfontein, South Africa. The full report will be published ASAP. signed, Barry Taylor. <stingray@nor.com.au> Australian connection. Working with ECUFOR. (S.Africa) _______________________ DISCLAIMER ============== 19 February 1999 This disclaimer is issued by the Evaluation Center of UFO Reports (ECUFOR) and serves to bring to the attention of all readers and publishing institutions including the Internet that the details surrounding an alledged UFO sighting on the 5 FEB 1999 over Bloemfontein, South Africa, are incorrect and denounced as false by the original witnesses. ECUFOR is currently investigating the sighting including the video material taken at the time and will issue a public release once all relevant witness testimonies have been documented and verified... and the video material authenticated . A further public release will be issued once analysis of the video material is complete. All persons , institutions and publishing houses are asked to refrain from promoting any further unsubstantiated details of this case in the interests of accurate reporting and the integrity of the witnesses involved . RESEARCH CO-ORDINATOR ECUFOR SOUTH AFRICA
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 20 Re: Pope On A Rope From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net> Date: Fri, 19 Feb 99 12:33:23 PST Fwd Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 09:00:46 -0500 Subject: Re: Pope On A Rope >Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 13:13:14 -0500 >From: Andy Roberts <Brigantia@compuserve.com> >Subject: Re: Pope On A Rope >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net> >Subject: Re: Pope On A Rope >Date: Wed, 17 Feb 99 10:56:21 PST Patient and gentle listfolk: >Jerry's continued attempts at evading the issue regarding Nick >Pope are amusing and educative. I can't believe that the point I am trying to make -- that Pope's being disingenuous about an experience he clearly did not want to own up to is an understandable and recognizable, if lamentable, human action -- continues to elude the ever censorious and self-righteous Mr. Roberts. Or maybe I can. I would bring up the old saw about how Americans and Brits are divided by a common language, except that I strongly suspect that our other British readers understand perfectly well what I'm saying here. >>That Pope has not provided evidence tells us only that he has >>not provided evidence. Got that? It tells us nothing about >>whether the experience was imaginary or not. To make that >>determination, we need to know more than your highly biased >>opinion. >The whole business is much sorrier and complicated than than >Jerry. I'll make it simple again. Apologies to those who have >actually understood what I'm getting at. This will be the last >time, I promise. Even if Jerry still doesn't understand. >* Pope claimed in the first draft of his first book that >he had been involved in what you call an 'abduction'. And what do you call it? I have simply been following the lead of your discussion and the commentary in the British press. Ought I not have done that? Shall we start calling "abductions" something else -- say, "xizzleyos"? Would that make you feel better? >* It didn't appear in the book and Pope subsequently >denied it was ever there. It was, and was witnessed >by Jenny Randles. >*He also calimed no knowledge or interest in UFOs >prior to his job at the MOD. >*This is clearly wrong. Therefore, go figure. Wrong, but as I've stated in another posting, hardly a major matter, and with rich precedent and parallel in all forms of human activity, including the sworn Congressional testimony of U.S. Supreme Court nominees claiming to be open-minded or unread on issues in which, once they get the job, they demonstrate they held positions all along. One might add that in the scheme of human history, members of the Supreme Court are larger players than a Nick Pope will ever be. >>I very much doubt that Pope has used the phrase "mere mortals". >>Let's see some specific quotes here to determine context and >>accuracy of paraphrase. Or are you simply employing cheap >>sarcasm in place of a rational argument? >Touche Jerry, or is that just touchy? I take it that the answer to my last question is yes. >>In full anticipation, of course, of the torrent of ridicule that >>would wash over him should it be revealed that this was his own >>personal abduction experience. And that, of course, is precisely >>what happened. >Whether he anticpiated ridicule or not is immaterial. Why is it immaterial? Because you declare it so? Because you find it much easier to dish out ridicule than to be at the receiving end of it? Maybe, for just one second or two, you might want to put yourself in Pope's place. >The point is that a self styled 'expert' on UFOs who is taken >seriously by a great number of people, and who makes money from >same, has seriously misled (to say the least) those people. Now >that concerns me. It should concern you too Jerry. Why? Should I also be losing sleep over Peter Rojcewicz's deception? See below. >>Oh, my. I guess I live in the larger world, where persons not >>ordinarily thought of as pathological liars are disingenous all >>the time when it comes to things they'd rather other people did >>not want to know about, such as matters that could embarrass >>them or open them to ridicule or worse. (Why, I'll bet that if >>you did enough research, you could even find Presidents of the >>United States who have conducted themselves in precisely that >>fashion.) I guess St. Andy adheres to higher standards of divine >>conduct than we mere mortals can manage. >Oh, my sides! I take it that you've conceded the point. >No Jerry I just expect published authors to have the good grace >not to mislead the people who give them the easy living they >enjoy. This continuing obsession with Pope's bank account is certainly curious. Does one catch a whiff of envy here? You'd think that Pope was some sort of Billy Meier or Philip Corso or somebody, who'd concocted a lot of wild stories out of thin air for financial gain. Pope's world-shattering sin is that he was disingenuous about what he apparently believed to be an abduction experience because, understandably to most of us, he did not want to open himself to ridicule. Yes, yes, all of us should be more honest and forthcoming, but as lies go, Pope's is hardly among the most consequential or venal. Apparently Andy's planet is smaller than the one the rest of us live one, and this sort of thing is worth a good, soul-satisfying rant. On the planet I live on, there are, sadly, far greater sins and tragedies to trigger my moral indignation. The cosmic moral transgression that has Andy in such a state of dudgeon is akin to the sin of Peter M. Rojcewicz. Rojcewicz published a paper in a respected academic periodical -- the Journal of American Folklore -- in which he reported a college student's encounter with an apparent man in black in an Oz Factor setting. The student was identified as (if memory serves) "Steve Elliot." At no time, in print or in interaction with the journal, did Rojcewicz admit to anyone that the individual he had treated as someone else was, in fact, himself. Stake-wielding Andy, we may be sure, would demand that Rojcewicz's crime be exposed, that the journal apologize to its readers, that every word Rojcewicz utters forever after (including, presumably, observations about the weather) be viewed with suspicion. Since the MIB story also appears in Rojcewicz's University of Pennsylvania Ph.D. dissertation, presumably Andy would want us to bring his lies to the university's attention and maybe even see about getting his doctorate withdrawn. >>Huh? What are the psychosociologists doing here? >They're watching you Jerry. And wondering. They must have a lot of time on their hands. Maybe they should do something productive, like getting a job with Ken Starr or something, since I gather they are partial to witchhunts. Otherwise, what in hell are they doing here? Maybe the answer is simply that you have psychosociologists on the brain. I'm sure there is a treatment available for the affliction, my friend, and surely you'll wish to seek it out before you betray further symptoms of this curious disorder. >>Why the paranoia here, or -- more to the point -- the frantic >>desire by Andy and Dennis to change the subject? Or is the >>answer all too obvious? >No paranoia Jerry. Only the sincere desire to point out serious >inconsistencies in an influential UFO 'researcher' and author's >writings. It would be bad enough if Popey were claiming >something provable - that he is claiming something for which the >physical evidence is non existent makes the whole affair >risible. Of course all of us claim "something for which the physical evidence is non existent" all of the time. I have no "physical evidence" to support my account of just about everything I did yesterday. Nor, I suspect, do you. Where UFO claims are concerned, the bulk have "nonexistent" physical evidence, including cases we all -- or most of us short of Klass and CSICOP, anyway -- agree to be puzzling and suggestive. Even Blue Book's unknowns consist largely of reports without supporting physical evidence. Your point, Andy? >And as I have said previously it throws into doubt *anything* >Pope alleges or even hints at. Nick Redfern's recent statements >about Pope's (lack) of UFO knowledge are also worth mentioning >in this context. This isn't me being snidey either - I've told >him all this to his face. I don't believe him and think the >whole sequence of events has the odour of fish about it. I trace the fishy smell in my nostrils to Andy's charmless self- righteousness and self-serving polemic. In other words, to the red herrings he has sent floating through the rhetorical stream. Jerry Clark
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 20 C-E: Trumbull Co. 9-1-1 recordings.ra From: Kenny Young <ufo@FUSE.NET> Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 08:35:10 -0500 Fwd Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 09:53:02 -0500 Subject: C-E: Trumbull Co. 9-1-1 recordings.ra Francis Ridge wrote: >Kenny, >Is the audiotape available as a soundbite on the Ohio site? >This would really be great. I realize it's sizeable, but maybe >no worse than an image. >Fran Fran; The tapes are available in the form of a *.ram file, which is actually archived from Jeff Rense's SIGHTINGS ON THE RADIO website. Virtually the entire 9-1-1 tape is available there, heard on two segments. Once you click on the link you can hear it in Real Audio or Real Player. Scroll forward to the time it specifies to hear the segment. For the links, go: http://home.fuse.net/ufo/Trumbull_Index.htm -- UFO Research http://home.fuse.net/ufo/
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 20 C-E: Trumbull Co. 9-1-1 recordings.ra From: Kenny Young <ufo@FUSE.NET> Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 08:35:10 -0500 Fwd Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 09:53:02 +0000 Subject: C-E: Trumbull Co. 9-1-1 recordings.ra Francis Ridge wrote: >Kenny, >Is the audiotape available as a soundbite on the Ohio site? >This would really be great. I realize it's sizeable, but maybe >no worse than an image. >Fran Fran; The tapes are available in the form of a *.ram file, which is actually archived from Jeff Rense's SIGHTINGS ON THE RADIO website. Virtually the entire 9-1-1 tape is available there, heard on two segments. Once you click on the link you can hear it in Real Audio or Real Player. Scroll forward to the time it specifies to hear the segment. For the links, go: http://home.fuse.net/ufo/Trumbull_Index.htm -- UFO Research http://home.fuse.net/ufo/
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 20 Re: Pope On A Rope From: Andy Roberts <Brigantia@compuserve.com> Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 12:46:26 -0500 Fwd Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 10:34:56 -0500 Subject: Re: Pope On A Rope >From: AlienHype@aol.com >Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 03:12:56 EST >To: updates@globalserve.net >Subject: Re: Pope On A Rope >Well, said Jerry. Mr Roberts and his group seem to have the >attitude that if your opinion differs from theirs you are >either full of delusions, making it all up for attention, or >part of the lunatic-fringe. Hardly Max, all we seek from other ufologists is the clear presentation of evidence claimed and the chance to be able to investigate it or comment on it ourselves. This is not unreasonable and the more exotic the claims the less unreasonable it becomes. Far too many people are introducing what are little more than 'stories' into the UFO community and expecting them to be swallowed whole with no digestive process. If that is what passes for ufology then we should all be trying to change it. The fact that quite a lot of 'exotic' UFO cases are in fact touted in the UK by people who are 'making it all up' or are part of the 'lunatic fringe' just goes with the territory. And adds to the fun. >This group of ufologists in the UK, involved in the forming of >I.U.N UK, appear to be trying to force anyone who differs with >them into submission or hound them out of ufology. Max displays his considerable ignorance of UK ufology. Again. The IUN has been in existence since 1988, published over thirty magazines, was responsible for bringing many US ufologists to the UK (Keel, Vallee, Friedman, Moore, Howe, etc), produces in depth reports, organises conferences, supports case research etc etc. We have no intention of forcing anyone into submission or hounding them out of ufology. But we will no longer work silently behind the scenes. >It smacks of a full-out effort by 'intelligence' groups to >suppress research by ufologists. This just causes us to laugh 'til we're hoarse. Whenever good, hard core sceptics start to solve cases, take a high profile and head the believers off at the pass they have only one get out clause - 'Mummy, mummy, it's obviously a concerted effort by 'intelligence' groups.' Hell, if I was approached and asked to work for such a group and they would pay me I would gladly do it. Being paid for scepticism - just imagine! The fact is they have never approached anyone that I know of in UK ufology over the past 20 odd years. >This simply cannot be allowed to happen. If you search the >UpDates archive at Ufomind you'll see a deliberate pattern of >action by these individuals - none of which has anything to do >with research into the subject matter. No, you'll see a deliberate pattern of the following: Sceptics in the UK becoming more organised and cohesive, determined to take and investigate exotic UFO claims (such as 'crashes' like Rendlesham, Berwyn Mountain, the Sheffield Incident, sundry 'abductions' etc etc). We have managed to stem the tide of sensible ufologists leaving the field and to start to act positively to counter the growing UFO mythologies. Anyone got a problem with that? >Jerry you have to understand - these are the self-appointed >'elite' of British ufology - they spend their days sharing and >cross-fertilising each others posts when the need to destroy >cases and people comes up. Actually Max - you've appointed us the elite. But hey, let's not be modest. We are all pretty damn good researchers and investigators with an excellent published track record. We know how to research a case efficiently and we know how to get the results into the UFO press. Anyone got a problem with that? >In reality they are a group of highly-motivated and agressive >predators who are well organised Damn right! But we know our stuff. What's wrong with being highly motivated and aggressive? What's wrong with being well organised? This ain't no party, this ain't no disco, this ain't no fooling around. >and will stop at nothing to >suppress and debunk all aspects of anything 'ET', feeding the >continuing confusion in ufology.. Rubbish Max - we work on cases and ufologists and make people aware of our findings. The 'confusion' is only there because of people like yourself. >I do not fear the psychology of ridicule that people like this >employ Good! >or asking questions about motivation and reasons for >their being in ufology. But you just did Max! >It just seems rather pointless behaviour to me >unless there's a hidden agenda. No hidden agendas. Whatsover. And the behaviour has a very sharp point indeed. Happy Trails Andy
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 20 Re: 'Confirmation' - New York Times Blinks From: Ignatius Graffeo <Ufoseek@aol.com> Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 13:26:55 EST Fwd Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 10:38:38 -0500 Subject: Re: 'Confirmation' - New York Times Blinks >Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 13:35:45 -0800 (PST) >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj@proaxis.com> >Subject: Re: 'Confirmation' - New York Times Blinks Opposing this TV program, Ignatius Graffeo writes: >For example, NBC boasts that the special contains "eyewitness >accounts from police who've witnessed alien craft." In fact, the >Ohio police officer makes a point of saying he doesn't know what >he saw. Minor detail? Jim, I did NOT oppose this program, only commented on the opposition to it in the article by the New York Times writer. Please re-read the original post. http://members.aol.com/ufoseek/nytblinks.htm Ignatius Graffeo
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 20 Re: 'Confirmation' - New York Times Blinks From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com> Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 13:56:46 EST Fwd Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 10:40:53 -0500 Subject: Re: 'Confirmation' - New York Times Blinks >Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 13:35:45 -0800 (PST) >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj@proaxis.com> >Subject: Re: 'Confirmation' - New York Times Blinks >>From: Ignatius Graffeo <Ufoseek@aol.com> >>Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 08:45:09 EST >>To: Updates@globalserve.net >>Subject: 'Confirmation' - New York Times Blinks >Opposing this TV program, Ignatius Graffeo writes: >>For example, NBC boasts that the special contains "eyewitness >>accounts from police who've witnessed alien craft." In fact, the >>Ohio police officer makes a point of saying he doesn't know what >>he saw. Minor detail? > >That's usually the point -- if a witness does't know what he saw >-- he can't identify it as anything at all earthly or of >man-made origin, then it remains unidentified and is a UFO. So >if it wasn't at all earthly, the term "alien" was OK to use in >describing it, in the case of a reliable witness. > Jim Deardorff James... good name that... Hmmm. Speaking hypothetically, what would your reaction have been to an anomolous object hovering, accelerating, carrying multiple lights (like a Christmas tree) and performing abnormally for all to see? Abnormally, defying the laws of physics and performaing in a most alien (to our technology) way! Silently! Let's say you were familiar with basic physics... with basic science. Let's say you were a professional at making observations, say, like a police officer... officers... If "we" had stuff like that in our repertoire of weaponry and aircraft, could it possibly be that we've been flying it for decades in total secret? Not using it against our enemies? And flying it in full view of citizens all over the world? But secretly, of course! What appelation would you use to attempt defining this "thing," in the light of the show's focus? A putty tat, maybe? Swamp gas? Gripple? Unidentified flying solid object defying all the known laws of physics. UFSODATKLOP! Have you ever seen an anomalous object? One that defies all manner of science and physics that we understand and know? If you've studied the phenom and eliminated everything possible except psychosis, what else may it be? If your answer is psychosis, you are hopeless. "You" being those who prefer Gripple over memory, Swamp Gas over Alien and that old Klass Gasser, "They just want attention!" Say, did you just see that? I tawt I taw a putty tat!? I did, I did. I taw a putty tat! A flying putty tat with Christmas tree lights, cream in the middle and a cherry on top. Call Klass. He'll straighten us all out. He knows everything. James Gesundt
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 20 Re: Phil Klass and The Trent Photos From: DRudiak@aol.com Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 14:18:19 EST Fwd Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 10:53:58 -0500 Subject: Re: Phil Klass and The Trent Photos >From: Royce J. Myers III <rjm3@sprintmail.com> >Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 11:19:13 -0800 >Fwd Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 10:53:04 -0500 >Subject: Phil Klass and The Trent Photos >The Trents (to my knowledge) still live quietly in McMinville, >Oregon in a modest retirement complex. They live off a small >retirement fund which they worked for all their lives. Mr.Trent >(when I talked with him in 1994) was having problems walking and >was in desparate need of an electric cart in order for him to be >able to go anywhere. These are two honest people who honestly >reported what they saw... hardly famous and hardly rich. Royce, thanks for your interesting comments about your impressions of the Trents. Paul Trent died in 1996 and his wife in early 1997. Several of their children and Trent's brother still live in the area, however. In 1997 I visited the site where the photos were taken. It's changed quite a bit since 1950. Trees are planted in the back yard and a cherry orchard across the road, what used to be a vacant field in the photos. As a result, the view from the back yard where Trent took his photos has been obscured by trees. Trent's house burned down in the 1960s and a trailor home now occupies the site. However, the famous garage in the photos is still there, though altered. The rafters which cast the controversial shadows have been cut back and gutters added. A car shelter has been added in front, and further obscures the view. The propane tank of the photos is long gone. Incidentally, the garage is much larger than what you would think from the photos. It holds two cars and has workspace down the sides. There is also a storage shed attached to the back. This has relevance to another bogus argument raised by skeptics against the authenticity of the Trent photos: why didn't Trent walk around back of the garage, i.e. to his left, to keep the object in view when it moved to the left and was about to be obsured by the roof of the garage? The most important reason is that it was a long walk around the back of the garage. Furthermore, Trent would have lost sight of the object while he was doing this. It was much simpler (and more logical) for Trent to walk forward and to his right a few feet to keep the object in view the entire time and then snap his second photo. Another objection to the Trent photos was why didn't others see the object? Again a site visit by skeptics would have provided a logical answer. The area was very sparsely populated, consisting primarily of large open farm fields with a few farm houses scattered here and there. Even today, there probably aren't more than about 30-50 people per square mile. A neighbor who directed me to the old Trent farm told me that UFO sightings in the area are quite common because of the openness of the region, general clarity of the skies, and the fact that people tend to spend a lot of time outdoors. He and his wife recounted one such sighting where the entire family saw some very bright object zip upward at a 45 degree angle while they were driving home one night. The wife's parents had apparently had a classic "mothership" sighting of a large cylinder with objects coming out of it. [They would never lie about something like that, she said.] All in all, the husband estimated maybe 50 percent of the people in the area had similar accounts. Along these lines, I found another local UFO report from the 1950 period dated July 6 (About a month after the Trent photos were first published) in the McMinnville Telephone-Register. It read: "Williamina Men See Flying Disc "More mail--more flying saucer reports. Mail continues to straggle into the Telphone Register news desk with requests for the Flying Saucer edition, and with this morning's mail came a phone call from Williamina reporting flying saucers in that area. [Williamina is a tiny town about 5 miles down the highway from the Trent farm] "Three Williamina firemen, Oscar Lee, Al Felton, and Ray Kroll, are reported to have seen an object in the sky north of Williamina Wednesday night [July 5] between 7:30 and 8 p.m. The object appeared to resemble the pictures taken by Paul Trent two months ago, although thefiremen said the object seemed to be a greater distance and at an estimated height of 1500 feet. "According to the report, the object seemed to hover motionless in the sky for some seven or eight minutes before disappearing. They reported that the object reflected the light, and shone brilliantly. "Another witness, Herman Flatau, is also said to have witnessed the object about the same time." David Rudiak
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 20 Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net> Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 14:26:10 -0500 Fwd Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 11:01:31 -0500 Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 23:17:59 -0800 >From: judithdale <judithdale@earthlink.net> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >The questions you raise are good ones, and I agree that more >concrete evidence in the way of records would be helpful. >I raised your questions to my friend's daughter. She was not >very encouraging about obtaining a signed release of information >from her mom, that could be sent to the hospital's medical >records department. Her mom is dying of cancer. This is not an >issue the daughter wants to raise with her mom at this time. >She did tell me that she remembers her mom going to the hospital, >and being there for quite some time. However, she did suggest I >talk to her brother, who being somewhat older than she, may >remember more. Further, from my own experience working in >health care for the past 27 years, I doubt that the records even >exist, any longer. I think that most hospitals destroy patient >records after 10 yrs. Also, we are talking about a military >hospital. >I, myself, am not comfortable bringing up this subject with my >friend, now. We last talked about it over Thanksgiving. The >subject came up during a conversation regarding making peace >with one's life and self before death. My friend did share info >with me about some of her experiences. Info about physical burn >like marks and strange rashes that occurred after some of the >'abductions'. The horror and sense of violation she >experienced. She, briefly, described being taken onto a ship, >but then, told me we had to change the subject. She was >terrified that talking about 'them' would cause 'them 'to come >back. <more snipped, including Judith's information that most hospitals don't keep records for more than ten years> Judith, Thanks so much for your serious and detailed answer. I know these things are complex, since they involve deep personal feelings. And there's something else we all should be aware of. Not everyone with possibly important UFO information feels impelled to share it with the world. This can be especially true of abductees, who simply don't feel, many of them, that it's their job to serve as experimental subjects or data banks for the UFO community. Anyone who doesn't understand this feeling should think harder about the human issues involved. Among much else, going public with abduction information -- as is obviously necessary if anyone shares medical records -- means getting embroiled in contrversy. We should remember that Linda "Cortile" (the abductee whose case is the subject of Budd Hopkins's book "Witnessed") was called at home by complete strangers calling themselves UFO investigators. Her husband's employer was called, and asked if he knew his employee's wife was an abductee. This can get nasty, obviously. I have to sympathize with abductees who simply don't want to get involved. >Intellectualizing over the issue of proof, ie: not enough, not >good enough, etc., only serves to drain our power by keeping >our attention off of the solution, IMHO. >In my view, it is absolutely not okay that some of us are taken >against our will. This is in violation of fundamental cosmic >law, in my opinion. Of course, if we don't know how to exert our >will (not like 'willpower'), and own our primacy in this world, >then we are easy pickings. >Whew, I'm getting carried away, here, so I'll stop, for now. I'm glad you made this last point, Judith, and I -- speaking only for myself -- would have been happy to read much more in this vein. Suppose abductions really happen. If so, we're lucky that people like Budd and Dave Jacobs (along with many abductees) have gone out on a limb and tried to describe what abductions are about, even before we have solid proof. Skeptics can complain all they want, and many of their points are well taken. But the implications for our world as gigantic, very obviously, so -- even if there should only be slight chance that abductions are real -- we're lucky someone is taking the data seriously. Greg Sandow
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 20 Re: STS-48 Debunked? From: Greg St. Pierre <StrmNut@aol.com> Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 15:07:45 EST Fwd Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 11:06:27 -0500 Subject: Re: STS-48 Debunked? Hello List, I've seen this shuttle video many times, and have reached a conclusion. Ditch it. Forget it. The other videos shown on the Confirmation program were far more entertaining, and gave far more evidence of being distant from the cameras and of being genuinely unexplainable. I simpy cannot reconcile in my mind the idea that STS-48 shows enough perspective on the objects to indicate their distance. Additionally, the blast from a thruster would likely have drastically different effects on particles having only minor differences in distance from the camera. Just watch dust being blown around near a building corner some day, and you'll get my drift: Particles in very close proximity moving in opposite directions at differing velocities, that sort of thing. Now, before anyone lectures me about the differences between linear thrust in space and turbulent air, let me say that what direction the thruster faces, how far it was from the camera, and what effect its proximity to the shuttle's surface has on it's emissions are all questions that I've not yet seen addressed. Until such time as they are, I say the video is a waste of time and energy that could be expended on better videos such as the others that were shown. Greg
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 20 Re: STS-48 Debunked? From: Don Ecker <decker@ufomag.com> Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 12:20:36 -0800 Fwd Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 11:21:53 -0500 Subject: Re: STS-48 Debunked? >Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 02:13:57 +1100 >To: <updates@globalserve.net> >From: Mike Farrell <mikefarr@midcoast.com.au> >Subject: STS-48 Debunked? >Due to new information posted by NASA spokesman, James Oberg, >we have reason to re-examine the infamous UFO footage of Shuttle >flight STS-48 from Sept.15, 1991. Now, almost 8 years later, >we are still divided on the truth of this matter. If I may step in here for a moment, I would like to make a statement in reference to the STS 48 question. I am the person that broke this story in June of 1992. I had received a tape from Don Ratch with the STS 48 footage and a number of other incidents on this video from that mission.When I received it Dr. Bruce Maccabee happened to be at my home in Southern Calf. There were several other people present and we all watched the video with great interest. At the time, and unknown to myself or anyone else, Maccabee was very aware of this incident. He had been made aware of this by Ratch and Vincent DiPietro. They had been trying to garner congressional interest in this matter and certain Congressional representatives had been contacted. It was considered a very hot subject. I later was to find out that DiPietro was extremely concerned for his safety. Maccabee never let on. I contacted a producer that I knew that worked for Larry King. After calling him in Washington, he asked me to go to CNN in Los Angeles and they would "beam" some of the footage back to Washington. I did this and then waited to hear. The producer in question called me back and was very excited. I pointed out several items about this footage that I found incredible. First I know something about how material acts in a "zero-g" environment. By this time I had closely watched "event 2" close to one hundred times. I was then, and am now convinced that this was not a prosaic happening. The main object in question does not tumble or turn at all! If this were ice crystals, as Oberg maintains, and _if_ a thruster is fired (which is explained when the light blossoming effect happens as "something" flashes toward the object) which "pushes the debris" then the so-called crystals should tumble, turn and so on. _It_does_not_. They then scheduled the program and asked me for recommendations on someone to take the con position. I first mentioned Phil Klass but he declined. I then mentioned Jim Oberg. They called Oberg up and he accepted. I had decided to set the ground rules first and when we finally went on the air I asked Oberg if he was operating under any security restrictions. He became angry and did not want to answer. Instead of a simple yes or no he did what many "skeptics" do and launched into an ad hominim attack. He accused me of coming on the show to sell magazines. King however told Oberg that this was a "fair" question and Oberg then stated that on DOD (Dept. of Defense) operations that he did sign security agreements, but STS 48 was not a DOD mission. I asked Oberg if he would be able to talk about "unknowns" if he had knowledge of them and he claimed he could. He went on to say that he has written about many UFO cases, which is true. I however, question whether he is objective about what he has written. When I pointed out that on this mission, the object did not tumble, it could not have been waste water because the water dump happened later (on the video) instead of answering these questions, he made a remark about how surprised he was that I could "know so much being hundreds of miles from mission control." I also pointed out that the so called thruster firing (that Oberg claimed pushed the "ice crystals about") did not change the view from the shuttle. In other words, if they _had_ been fired, the view from the camera would have moved, it did several minutes later. Not then. And of course the thing that _convinced_ me was the next day the satellite feed from NASA was encrypted. Later, I was informed from a source I have (and this of course is not verified) that there were some very pissed off people at NASA and in the DOD. So the bottom line is I really think that we in the UFO research community had a genuine "smoking gun" and we let it get away. Ice Crystals? Not very damned likely. -- Don Ecker http://www.ufomag.com http://libertyworksradio.com Heading Toward the Millennium!
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 20 RenseNews From: Jeff Rense <eotl@west.net> Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 11:27:46 -0500 Fwd Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 11:27:46 -0500 Subject: RenseNews :: Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 08:10:10 -0800 (PST) : : : To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> Subject: RenseNews *** RenseNews *** The Week Ahead 2-20-99 thru 2-27-99 Guests, Announcements, Week's Top Stories From sightings.com RenseNews is distributed by Free Subscription Only. If you wish to unsubscribe, email:jocelyn@dewittec.net *** TOP STORIES *** Just a few of the this week's most intriguing! http://www.sightings.com * US Attacks US - What's Going On Here?? * Largest Meteorite Crater Ever Found In Europe * Wild New UFO Sightings In Europe And The US This Week * New Software Picks Better Investments Than Wall Street's Finest * Stunning New Digital Pictures of the Sphinx and Giza * Lammer's Shocker - First Book To Expose Military 'Alien' Abductions * Effects Of Microwaves On Foods And Consumers * Monsanto Is Fined For Genetic Food 'Pollution' - Vows Fight * Miami Circle Saved - County Will Confiscate Site Via 'Eminent Domain' * Hospitals Jammed As Banned Pesticide Said Sprayed From Skies * The Car That Drives You * Swiss Army And Intel Said To Be Joining ECHELON * Y2K - US Government Announces Worldwide Potential Problems * Y2K - Guard Units Train To Combat Problems Read these fascinating articles and dozens more at www.sightings.com Allstories are saved and archived in our huge DataPages section *** THIS WEEK'S GUESTS *** 2-21-99 thru 2-27-99 (Please note Jeff's Guest schedule can change due to late breaking stories, etc) SUN 2-20-99 Jon Peniel: The Lost Teachings Of Atlantis author will describe his amazing personal UFO encounters. Jose Escamilla: The latest on his incredible discovery of 'Rods', the new, flying life forms that have been captured on video and film around the world and just featured on TLC. MON 2-21-99 Benedick Howard: Update on the Navy's worldwide LFAS sonarizing project which has been damaging dolphin and whales. Our oceans in trouble. Beverly Jaegers: Another visit from the World famous Remote Viewer with RV targets for you to go after! Fascinating. TUE 2-22-99 LIVE From Laughlin UFO Congress! UFO*BC Canada UFO Report Surprise World Famous UFO Expert Guests WED 2-23-99 LIVE from Laughlin UFO Congress! Surprise World Famous Expert Guests THU 2-24-99 LIVE from Laughlin UFO Congress! Surprise World Famous UFO Expert Guests FRI 2-25-99 LIVE from Laughlin UFO Congress! Surprise World Famous UFO Expert Guests SAT 2-26-99 David John Oates Reverse Speech Show. The discoverer of RS does reversals live on the air! Also hear the rich and famous revealing their deepest truths! *** ANNOUNCEMENTS *** RenseWorld Opens! Visit the most amazing cyber experience ever... An entire VIRTUAL PLANET is now open for online exploration! Imagine...with a couple of mouse clicks you can leave this reality and travel to another dimension in time and space where you will meet hundreds and then thousands of people who are busy building homes, castles, parks, and estates that will blow your mind. There are no limits to the potential of RenseWorld, so come and visit... ...if you dare! System Requirements PC users running Windows & IE, and MAC users running either VirtualPC or SoftWindows with Internet Explorer can download the full RenseWorld browser in minutes. Just hop the banner RenseWorld banner link at the top of Jeff's homepage and get ready for... a true cyber phenomenon. ________ NEW! Jeff Rense Y2K RESOURCE CENTER Because of the intense interest and scores of requests, we have expanded our sightings.com Y2K resource marketplace to include even more critical commercial information and preparedness products and services, etc. CHECK IT OUT http://www.sightings.com/y2kresource/y2k1r.html *** PROGRAM INFORMATION *** Program Show Times Live Coast-To-Coast Monday-Friday 7-10pm Pacific 10-1am Eastern Sundays 8-11pm Pacific 11-2am Eastern Call in Line: 888 667-2346; 888 ON-RADIO Program Transcripts at http://www.immunotex.com/rense/ Program Audio Tapes 888 456-4340 Live Real Audio Broadcasts http://www.sightings.com Connect to Real Audio and listen LIVE Real Audio Archives Connect to our archives and hear your favorite guests and show topics for the past two years! http://www.sightings.com RenseWorld Click on the RenseWorld banner link at the top of http://www.sightings.com ------------------------- Share with your friends! Please feel free to forward this electronic issue of RenseNews to any and all who are interested... as long as it is forwarded in its entirety and not modified in any fashion. Thank you! -------------------------- To subscribe or unsubscribe: <jocelyn@dewittec.net -------------------------- RenseNews is produced independently in cooperation with Jeff Rense. The material and views expressed herein do not necessarily reflect those of Jeff Rense, sightings.com, or the Jeff Rense - Sightings Radio Program.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 20 C-E: Rumor About 'Confirmation' "Payoff" False From: Kenny Young <ufo@FUSE.NET> Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 09:00:37 -0500 Fwd Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 11:58:42 -0500 Subject: C-E: Rumor About 'Confirmation' "Payoff" False C-E List; Someone posted some bogus info alleging the 'Confirmation' producers were trying to pay money for an abduction account from an Ohio police officer, but this was evidently not the case. Enclosed below are the details of what sparked this brief rumor that someone alerted me about through E-mail and the phone call which clarified the issue. The following announcement appeared on an MSNBC "Space Science" internet Bulletin Board from someone who claimed the following: Subject: INSIDER INFO ON NBC UFO "PROOF" From: dadean Host: cc5-31.ccia.com Date: Thu Feb 18 07:36:26 I was impressed that they showed both sides of the story, but here's something they didn't tell you: The last segment concerning the police in Ohio took place not far from where I live. The local news interviewed the cop after the show aired last night. He said that he only saw a light (not a spacecraft like what was depicted on the show), but the real kicker is that he said the producers OFFERED him $5000 to say he was ABDUCTED. He declined the offer, but that essentially reveals the motives of the show, hardly a even-handed attempt at examining the subject. ... As reported on the MSNBC Space BBS http://bbs.msnbc.com/bbs/msnbc-space/posts/be/25117.asp --------------------- COMMENT: This report appeared to be a glaring problem, so verification of the account was thought necessary. WFMJ Television (101 West Boardman Street - Youngstown, OH 44503) was contacted by telephone this morning (330-744-8821) and a kind and helpful employee in the newsroom assisted. She informed that their news report, which appeared on the 11 p.m. newscast following the 'Confirmation' special, was produced by reporter Matt Stone. She assisted with the verification attempt by pulling the script for this segment and reading it to me over the phone. Officer Melero, when interviewed by Matt Stone, stated that the Sightings television program had called him to offer $5,000.00 if he would recount an abduction experience. (Isn't that interesting?) For clarification, this does not involve the 'Confirmation' producers, as indicated in the posting on the MSNBC Space BBS. The person who posted this announcement on the MSNBC Space BBS had made incorrect information available on the internet. Lastly, as this person pointed out, there is a slight 'dramatization' of the initial sighting of the UFO by the police officer for the 'Confirmation' special. During the 1996 interview with the officer involved -whose car was effected by the UFO- he explained that what he observed was a massive light which lit up the ground. He did not described ANY sructure. The 'Confirmation' piece utilized special effects showing a big structured 'craft' with a rotating section. This was clearly dramatized for this one segment. It should be stressed, however, that OTHERS involved after this primary sighting DID recount such descriptive detail. Aside from this, does anyone on the Current Encounters List know when the TV show 'Sightings' on the Sci-Fi Channel ceased production? Were they in pre-production for any programs after June of 1998? Thanks, Kenny Young [Feb. 20, 1999] -- UFO Research http://home.fuse.net/ufo/
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 20 Questions On A Couple Of Old Photos... From: Ralph Howard <RHJr1983@aol.com> Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 19:42:02 EST Fwd Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 12:17:21 -0500 Subject: Questions On A Couple Of Old Photos... In the course of making myself a catchy screen-saver for my computer at work, I ran across two old UFO photographs shown in Frank Edwards' 'UFOs: Serious Business'. The two photos are shown one above the other, one is shot no. 1 of the 2 Trent photos (May 1950), and the other is a photo of an extremely similar disc that is stated to have been taken by a French Air Force pilot near Rouen, France in March 1954. I am aware of all of the analytical work done on the Trent photos. Concerning the other photo, from France: -Does anyone know of the primary source of the photograph? Is it written up anywhere with a case analysis? -Was the photo ever studied or analyzed? Granted Frank Edwards was by no means a UFO 'authority', but as he pointed out there in his book, the correspondence of the two disc-shapes seems remarkable. Any information or comments would be welcomed. ***************************************************** Ralph O. Howard, Jr. [RHJr1983@aol.com] ISUR, Atlanta Georgia USA http://www.isur.com *****************************************************
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 20 More 'Implants' From: Mike Farrell <mikefarr@midcoast.com.au> Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 14:28:09 +1100 Fwd Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 12:24:21 -0500 Subject: More 'Implants' _________________ Hello UpDates List, The recent showing of the NBC 'Confirmation' has rattled the "cage of complacency".... Several of you have inquired about the websites that this abductee had problems accessing. Being a computer novice, I'm a bit reluctant to try them out. For those of you competent and brave enough, the addresses follow this abductees latest reply to the "real" purpose of "alien implants". Thank You, Mike Farrell Director of Project GUFONE (Global UFO Newsvideo Exchange) http://www.fan.net.au/~tkbnetw/mikes.htm **************************************************************** Hey Mike, Having seen the types of implants listed by Derell Simms and having at least been exposed to two types, one which I have physically seen and the other I know about but haven't seen. Don't ask me how I know what it looks like, I just do. The First was a result of an abduction where I completely disappeard from the house for a period of several hours (at night) and have a visible scar from that experience. The second was from an implant placed inside the corner of my eye. You can imagine the shock that I felt when viewing one of these implants and the rush of memories that came flooding back. This type of implant was placed one night and it looks like a husk from birdseed, only it is of a plastic type of material. It fell from the corner of my eye and I had not the vaguest idea how it got there until I remebered when seeing the Simms article. I had been paranoid about insects flying around the room and biting me for close on two months after that incident, thinking that I had been bitten by a mosquito or something similar. The wound was similar to a red sore and took two weeks to clear up. I have no memory of what happened to the implant case, as I later found out what it was, and have vague memories of insect like eyes looking at me. Under Hypnosis, I had a severe panic attack when regressed back to this and another time on a lonely highway down near Nowra, "another incident". I am sure many many people are being infested with these implants and I am positive my informer is 100% correct for the reasons they are there. ((ie: a "blocking device" to human psychic powers) --------------------------------------------------------------- Since the conjecture of the use of implants and their actual use against the human race has risen again and yet still we struggle to find answers, we forget one thing about the Aliens as stated in the article by the preacher man. That "THEY" have the ability to manipulate us human beings, but we have the ability to "RESIST" them by virtue of the fact that they did not anticipate the evolution of such a determined species as ours. It is my belief that we have a multi-layer brain system that we use to empart ourselves on the everyday physical world and the Subconcious part that keeps ourselves "safe and secure" by Guarding against the physical world. A sort of programme running in the background, running a survival analysis. This we do through heriditary responses and learnt conditioning. The third level is the realm of the Dreamscape, where our inner being roams subconsiously, teaching and relaxing us and sending messages, which we have to interprete through dreams. The fourth level or the ID as it is sometimes known, is the basis that everything works on. The TRUE SELF, the Soul, the very fabric that makes you, you. The inner light that you carry forever, a luminous energy field, that is tuned to the very lifeforce of the universe. This can never be interefered with by anyone or anything. During the Abduction scenario, the Aliens basically short circuit the Connection from the concious mind to the unconcious mind using senapsis-interfering technology, affecting our short term memory. As the mind switches to compensate or goes into the subconcious (survival mode), memories filter through. It is these traumatic memories that then return by certain triggers such as Smells ,Sounds, light patterns ,etc. These creatures can not comprehend the Complexity of the Human Brain because pure and simple, they only have a one level brain. It has often been stated that they act like a hive mentality and individualism does not exist . So called feelings of love from these creatures is a manipulation of the persons own emotions to achieve a means to an end . DO NOT BE FOOLED that these creature care, they DO NOT posses the ability to care. They have devoted their existance to evolving their one level brain which has the abilty to (mind Control, Levitate objects when two or more are present, Transpose the Victims own Emotions against them, And trancend physical barriers by manipulation of the energy field, allowing transit through solid objects provided they are not too thick. How long it will continue is anyones guess and what the ultimate purpose is I again do not know, but one thing I do know is, one day I will remember everything and will know the reason why. And also know that more people will be implanted , but soon, VERY Soon, the tables will be turned against them. We are evolving quicker than most peole could imagine. And this is a threat to their agenda. RESIST AT ALL COSTS! Regards, AC %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% Hey Mike, I have not gone back to the Astral projection site as my computer goes into a whizz bang shutdown mode when I try to access it. This is the only site this happens on. It opens up my Microsoft Office programme, goes to a panel that says; warning-sytems malfunction, and the screen goes completely white, then nothing at all for about a minute, then it shuts down. Next time I start it up it says "Restore Decktop Panel". Maybe I am being paranoid, but other things are happening at the moment as well, which I will keep you informed. ___________________________________________ Here's the "astral path" for you to follow. The astral projection site is SPyderWEB--the Real X-Files http://seasurf.com/~radioman or fedwatch@hotmail.com if you go to this site it has a CIA Logo as the webpage, strobe down to ASTRAL on the left side, enter there and go to the panel at the bottom which asks, topics enter on Astral projection or OBE. The Art Bell site has a black panel under ASTRAL enter there and the button on the left is an orange one that seems to flash, enter there and good luck getting past the third page. Hope that some of the others have a better chance at looking at this site. A friend of mine said I should check for Viruses, which I did with a virus progamme and my machine is all clear. Let me know your results. Thanks, AC
The UFO UpDates Archive Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 20 STS-80 Debunked? From: Mike Farrell <mikefarr@midcoast.com.au> Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 14:28:42 +1100 Fwd Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 12:27:35 -0500 Subject: STS-80 Debunked? _________________ Hello UpDates List, The NASA shuttle footage showing "possible" UFO activity in near Earth orbit, seems to be taking a "bashing" lately with new arguments released by James Oberg. Can anyone point me towards analysis or detailed reports on the NASA Shuttle footage of STS-80 from Dec. 1996? It appears that further discussion of the anamolous objects in the earlier NASA shuttle footage STS-48 from Sept. 1991, is like beating a "dead horse". Is there still some "life" in the STS-80 footage? Besides seeing the entire film and reading some preliminary reports on UFO web news services and articles in the UFO magazines from England, I have yet to hear about a detailed analysis of STS-80, like reports published by Dr. Jack Kasher on the STS-48 footage. After asking James Oberg for his opinion on STS-80, here is what he sent me. Is this all there is? I'm new on the Internet, so forgive me if this is "old hat" to you!:-> Thanks, Mike Farrell Director of Project GUFONE (Global UFO Newsvideo Exchange) http://www.fan.net.au/~tkbnetw/mikes.htm ____________________________________________________________ Notes on the STS-80 UFOs" -- James Oberg January 1997 The STS-80 scenes seem to me to be identical in origin to the infamous STS-48 scenes and to numerous others throughout the shuttle flight program: low-light sensitive B&W cameras are trained on the receding horizon during night passes, to observe serendipitous lightning events for an experiment called Mesoscale Lightning Experiment, managed out of NASA-MSFC in Huntsville. You can see the dark horizon, the glowing 'air glow' layer, moving stars, moving city lights below, lightning flashes, and under moonlit conditions, dim clouds. By the way, these low-light B&W cameras are pretty old and are being replaced mission by mission -- the suite of cameras carried by a shuttle (one in each corner of the payload bay, two on the RMS, others perhaps mounted on the keel looking upwards at target spacecraft, plus a few handheld units inside the cabin) can be adjusted as needed, and a new color CCD camera is much higher quality (it doesn't 'bloom' in overbright reflections, and can't be damaged by sun exposure), but it's not as sensitive in low light, so there are fewer opportunities to see such views every year. When sunrise occurs (due to the Orbiter's motion along its orbit), even though the Orbiter is now bathed in sunlight, the camera is still trained on the dark side of Earth. But now the floating particles which routinely accompany every shuttle flight (often ice particles, sometimes junk from the payload bay, pieces of insulation blankets, a dozen or more distinctly different sources) can become visible in the sunlight, sometimes even moving into sunlight from the umbra of the Orbiter (and thus "appearing suddenly"). These are close to the camera, sometimes a few feet, at most a few hundred feet. Sometimes they are hit by pulses of gas from the RCS jets as they automatically fire to gently nudge the spaceship back towards a pre-set orientation. Because of the sensitivity of the camera, moving particles leave streaks -- even stars can be seen to do this when the camera is being panned (usually by command from a controller in the Mission Control Center). Tumbling particles tend to flash. Bright particles overload the optics and appear as "rings" or "do-nuts" with darker centers. There's nothing else to it, as far as I can tell. Everyone in the control center knows about this visual phenomenon, everyone has seen it numerous times, and they laugh at notions these are anomalous, while they grimace at yet more silly stories by people who don't seem to understand much (or do seem to misunderstand a lot) about "ordinary" space flight. As far as I was able to determine, these STS-80 scenes were recorded beginning about 11:55 PM PST on December 1, 1996. That's 07:55 GMT on December 2. Since the shuttle was launched on Nov 19, that is 324/19:55:47, this makes it about 12 days 11 hours 59 minutes "Mission Elapsed Time", or MET. This was on rev 197, crossing Venezuela, then the West Indies. The Orbiter attitude was bottom forward, with the vehicle yawed somewhat so the nose was off to one side. According to the activity plan sent up that morning, the crew was doing some evaluation of an EVA tool associated with their airlock problems, and the two pilots were scheduled to begin a review of landing procedures. Lunch was to follow. When I asked crewman Story Musgrave, who is not shy about talking about anomalies of any kind, he assured me he saw nothing unusual on the flight, at this point or at any other. The camera, "B" located at the rear of the payload bay, was in a pre-set position which was later changed by ground commands. Judging from the star motion at the horizon, it was looking southwest, not precisely backwards (since then the stars would have been setting straight down across the horizon). I don't have the exact numbers on the camera's pan/tilt and it's too much trouble to get them. According to a computer reconstruction of the trajectory, sunrise occurred at GMT 07:57. That's precisely when the picture shows a slight foggy periphery, and when the first objects appear. They keep showing up until about 08:01, when sunlit clouds come into the camer's field of view and the iris automatically stops way down so that the tiny objects (and stars too) are no longer visible. The camera view continues in daylight for long after that. The crew's "Earth Obs Exposures" daily plan listed ground targets which confirm this flight path: 12/11:54:05 Caracas 12/11:55:58 Montserrat and then 12/12:19:34 Lake Nasser 12/12:21:13 Jiddah, Saudi Arabia 12/12:21:23 Mecca These are "opportunities" only, not assignments, and apparently nobody was free to take the shots over Caracas and Montserrat. Here is some trajectory data from which you can reconstruct the flight path and lighting conditions at the interval of interest, if you have the commonly- available software. M50 State Vector GMT 337:00:54:47.00 MET 012:04:59:00 Position (ft) X 7272023.0 Y -20753260.5 Z -2137127.9 Velocity (ft/sec) VX 20614.669694 VY 8420.434295 VZ -11894.207423 At MET 12/11:55:47 for example, position is lat 15.07N, Lon 62.06W, alt 185.4nm, inertial velocity 25245.6034 ft/sec, the orbital range is 183.8361 to 193.8737 nm, period 91:23.435, beta angle -34 degrees (the sun is off to the right of the orbital plane by this angle), The video that I saw over in the Public Affairs Office was tape #612710. If you want to specify it to buy your own copies, give the MET or GMT times, and order ten minutes before and after the interval, so you can see the typical phenomena of stars leaving trails, and auto iris control functioning, and at one point the constellation Orion going by, and at the end a view around the Orbiter's sunlit payload bay. All very ordinary, unspectacular, normal space views, in my opinion. I don't know where the impression came from that this was a rebroadcast of daily highlights, since these programs are invariably short (10-15 minutes), with short clips jumping from scene to scene, usually involving views of astronauts. This sequence, on the other hand, was continuous for at least 20 minutes from the same camera, and the geography and lighting are consistent with the real time orbital motion. I looked at the "Flight Day Highlights" summary for three days around this date and that's what they consisted of, with no replay of any of these "dancing dots" scenes (why should there have been?). I don't expect that this will change many minds and I don't intend to go on television to face some wild accusations that I'm a paid liar for the grand conspiracy, and basically I don't take anyone seriously who takes these stories seriously. Life's too short for me to care what some people want to believe these scenes show. I've already spent too much time, but I figured somebody had to make a rational response, whether it was understood and believed, or not.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 20 UK Security Service Records 1914-1945 From: Paul Wittry <ppw3@premier1.net> Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 20:52:26 -0800 (PST) Fwd Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 12:32:50 -0500 Subject: UK Security Service Records 1914-1945 Thought someone might be interested in this..... ----- Security Service Records 1914-1945 - PRO [.pdf] http://www.pro.gov.uk/releases/Mi51999/default.htm The UK Public Record Office (last described in the January 8, 1999 Scout Report) has recently made a second release of Security Service Records (MI5), consisting primarily of personal files from British agents and enemy spies. Users may download catalog descriptions of the files in .pdf format or view overviews of the key documents at the site. Images of selected documents are also available, including files on Mata Hari, the first intelligence report on the capture of Rudolf Hess, images of a cardboard code carried by German spy Josef Jakobs, and a report on the use of Carrier Pigeons by German intelligence. Additional resources at the site include an overview of the first MI5 record release and a guide to accessing the records in person at the PRO in Kew. Although this release will be noticed mostly by researchers, anyone with an interest in wartime espionage will enjoy the selected full-text images. [MD] From: The Scout Report, Copyright Internet Scout Project 1994-1999. http://scout.cs.wisc.edu/ -------------------------------------------------------------------- -Paul -Owl says, open your eyes. -- +-------+------------------------------------+ | \ / | Paul Wittry, Chief Reclaimer | | (OvO) | NITE OWL COMPUTER RECLAIMERS | | (^^^) | <ppw3@premier1.net><bi065@scn.org> | | \^/ | LINUX COMPATIBLE, USED COMPUTERS | | ^ ^ | <http://www.premier1.net/~ppw3> | +-------+------------------------------------+ >> Powered by Caldera OpenLinux 1.2 <<
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 20 Re: STS-48 Debunked? From: Sharon Kardol <sharon@hotmix.com.au> Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 13:28:21 +0800 Fwd Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 12:36:43 -0500 Subject: Re: STS-48 Debunked? >Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 02:13:57 +1100 >To: <updates@globalserve.net> >From: Mike Farrell <mikefarr@midcoast.com.au> >Subject: STS-48 Debunked? >Due to new information posted by NASA spokesman, James Oberg, >we have reason to re-examine the infamous UFO footage of Shuttle >flight STS-48 from Sept.15, 1991. Now, almost 8 years later, >we are still divided on the truth of this matter. >The skeptics say "ice crystals", the believers say "spacecraft", >and the debunkers say the rest of us don't know what we're >looking at. >Here's my simple question to Mr. Oberg and his pointed reply. >Let's see if we can resolve this matter and then ask, how will >these results affect the analysis of the more recent Shuttle >Footage of STS-80 in Dec.'96, showing yet more "ice crystals" >that appear to rise from the earth's surface and other >"ice crystals" that appear to join up in a triangular formation >in earth's orbit? >Could we be making something out of nothing? >Or is it all a matter of perception and agenda? >Have a look and decide for yourself! <snip> >Here's the reply from Mr. Oberg: >From: JamesOberg@aol.com >Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 07:15:48 EST >To: mikefarr@midcoast.com.au >Subject: Re: Simple Question on STS-48 >Yes, I'll be posting them on the ABCNEWS.COM science page >later today... you can also find a link from my home page at >www.jamesoberg.com. Mike, Can you tell me which one of the videos at the abcnews.com science page is supposed to be another example of ""ice crystals" moving in the exact same manner, especially with a right angle turn and increase in speed?", as you requested from Mr Oberg, because I cant see the similarities. Thanks, Cheers SharonK
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 20 The Conningsby Tapes From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@get2net.dk> Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 06:50:17 GMT Fwd Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 12:41:23 -0500 Subject: The Conningsby Tapes Source: "alt.ufo.reports", Tommy Boyd is a host on Talk Radio UK, but the tapes aren't mentioned on that website either. See http://www.vitalo.com/the-whale/second4.htm Further details would be very much appreciated. Stig *** From: "TB" <boyd@cheapnet.co.uk> Newsgroups: alt.ufo.reports Subject: The Conningsby (UK) UFO debate Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 20:47:19 -0000 Organization: INSnet Customer Posting Mark Hall wrote: >Toby, >I've never heard about this before. Could you send me >some more info on the "Conningsby Tapes"? >Thanks for your help. >Anything I can do help you, don't hesitate to ask. >Mark Hall. >>From: TB <boyd@cheapnet.co.uk> >>Newsgroups: alt.ufo.reports >>Date: 11 February 1999 17:16 >>Subject: The Conningsby Tapes >>Dear Newsgroup >>I am new to this group but am hearing a great deal in >>the UK about something called "The Conningsby Tapes". >>They allegedly contain recordings of transmissions >>between UFO's and British fighter planes. Can anyone >>shed some light on this? >>Toby Dear Mark I heard about it thru a friend in the UK who listens to a talk radio presenter called Tommy Boyd. I think the URL is: http://www.cheapnet.co.uk/boyd/ Although there is no mention of this subject on his site as yet, he's planning a live radio show on the internet and claims he's got tapes of UFOs talking to/interfering with RAF fighter plane radios. Interesting, I also know someone who works for the RAF who reckons he's heard the term "Conningsby Tapes" before. Do you know which group/person/etc might be able to shed some light on this?
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 20 UFO Flap Over Australia 02-19-99 From: Diane Harrison <tkbnetw@fan.net.au> Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 23:33:51 +1000 Fwd Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 13:34:07 -0500 Subject: UFO Flap Over Australia 02-19-99 The Keith Basterfield Network Australasia E-Mail tkbnetw@fan.net.au http://www.fan.net.au/~tkbnetw **************************************************************** Australian UFO Research Network Hot Line Number 1800 77 22 88 Free Call **************************************************************** AUSTRALIAN UFO RESEARCH NETWORK HOTLINE 1800 77 22 88 (Free Call) All states Diane Harrison reporting. 19TH 2. 1999 UFO FLAP OVER AUSTRALIA Hi Skywatcher's If your in Australia it would be a good idea to watch the sky tonight. It would appear we might be having a UFO flap, last night 19th 2. 1999 The Australian UFO Research Network Hotline 1 800 77 22 88 was running hot. Reports of Orange Balls of light came in from all over state, some Where reported staying visible for around 3 minutes. Exford Victoria Time Reported: 9.20pm : Bright Orange Lights Seen in sky for 3 minutes then went off and on again. Persons sounded very excited Hydleburg West Time Reported: 9.31pm: A groups of 4 people said they witnessed orange balls of light they where very excited, they didn't leave a contact number. Perth Time Reported: 9.32pm: Caller reported orange light in sky. Victoria, Melbourne Time Reported: 9.33.pm(Qld time) Orange lights it the sky. Please phone Anthony on his mobile Burn Hill Vic: Time Reported: 9.41pm: Orange light seen in the sky, please phone & Beckas Marsh Vic: Orange ball of light visible for 3 minutes. Date: 17th February 1999 Day: Wednesday Time Reported: 9.30.pm South Cessnock New South Wales, photos taken: Adam aged 15 years said: he saw a orange object going from north to south, followed by a second one which was coming from the east. It then flashed out and re appeared in a second then became visible again. Adam said his mother "Margaret" was prepared this time with film and camera and they have taken some photo's. They telephoned Williamtown RAAF base and was told they the base was closed for the night and no plains were flying. Thank you Adam UFO on Video, Gaven Way Queensland Channel nine Brisbane on Tuesday 16th Feb Report by Mike Farrell mikefarr@midcoast.com.au Matt from Chl.9 said the event took place on the Northern end of the Gold Coast inland near a town called Gaven. It was late afternoon, the couple walked outside home to see some friends off, and noticed a bright light hovering low in the sky. The lady ran back in and got video camera and took just a couple of minutes of video before the object descended below the tree line and disappeared from view. It's real bushy where they live, and no airports close by. They watched it a couple of minutes before she went and got the camera. The news crew got a interview with her and showed about 20 seconds of raw footage. The witnesses said it changed colors, but the film just shows a bright white light that seems to change shape as it slowly moves away. Matt wouldn't give me any contact details, but will call the lady and pass on Diane's home phone number, which I gave him and the Hotline number. Lady has contacted Diane More details to come. Thanks Mike for following this up All relevant details have been passed on to State Investigator all under investigation (U/I) Regards Diane Harrison Australian UFO Research Network Hotline Co Director If you live in Australia and you would like to report a UFO sighting Just Call 1800 77 22 88 it's a Free Call in ALL STATES and we will get back to you. Just For the Record Mr Ross Dowe is not a member of The Australian UFO Research Network 1800 77 22 88. If you call any 1 900 number in Australia you will be charged anything from $3.95 to $4.95 per minute to report your sighting. So who ya gonna call 1 800 77 22 88 _Free_ Call :>)
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 20 NBC-Video 'Confirmation' Available? From: Joachim Koch <AchimKoch@compuserve.com> Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 09:00:44 -0500 Fwd Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 13:37:40 -0500 Subject: NBC-Video 'Confirmation' Available? Hello List! Yesterday I popped in the NBC website to look for additional information about the NBC special "Confirmation" because nobody here was aware of that tv special. I found out that they offer a video entitled 'Confirmation'. Could anyone please tell me if this is the same as what was broadcasted or at least contains the main segments! Thanks a lot Joachim Koch, Berlin
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 20 23rd Feb -IRC- Tim Good - UKUFONW From: United Kingdom UFO Network <ufo@holodeck.demon.co.uk> Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 14:04:14 -0000 Fwd Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 13:40:41 -0500 Subject: 23rd Feb -IRC- Tim Good - UKUFONW UNITED KINGDOM UFO NETWORK *** NEW CONNECTION INFO VIA WEB BROWSER BELOW *** Tuesday 23rd February 1999 6.30pm - 8.00pm United Kingdom UFO Network special guest: T I M O T H Y G O O D Timothy Good will be answering your questions live in a moderated meeting starting at 6.30pm (UK time) Tuesday 23rd February 1999. This is a very rare occasion for Timothy Good to appear live online. Don't miss this opportunity to visit and ask those all important questions. -- BIOGRAPHY -- Timothy Good is one of the premier UFO researchers in the world. He has been a UFO researcher for over twenty years and during that time has uncovered research which he feels proves the existence of UFOs and more importantly that the Earth is being visited regularly by extra terrestrials. His research suggests that there is a worldwide cover-up of UFO's perpetrated by the intelligence communities of virtually every government on Earth. Mr Good has created the most comprehensive research on the UFO phenomena by tracing reports all the way back to the early 1930's. Timothy Good is a respected British broadcaster and lecturer. He is a professional violinist for the London Symphony Orchestra and was elected to the Royal Society of Musicians in 1980. Mr. Good has written a large number of books on the UFO phenomena: The UFO Report Alien Update Alien Contact: Top-Secret UFO Files Revealed Alien Liaison: The Ultimate Secret Above Top Secret-The Worldwide UFO Cover-Up Beyond Top Secret Alien Base (his latest book now available in paper back) --- If you are using one of the dedicated IRC programs such as the excellent MIRC available free from: http://www.mirc.co.uk/ You can visit us by connecting to one of the: Chatnet servers and joining channel #UFO --- To find the equivalent time of the meeting in your part of the world point your web browser at: http://www.worldtimezone.com/ The web site will display a map of the world with 'updated live' times. After finding the United Kingdom time you will be able to work out (in hours and minutes) the time difference between our two countries. Remembering that this IRC meeting begins at 6.30pm you should now be able to work out the equivalent time in your country. --- Connecting via your java compatible web browser After connecting to the Internet goto the below url: http://irc.ircweb.com/javairc/ The web page will display: ** JAVirc, an irc client at IrcWeb.Com Your Browser must have Java Capabilities for this to work. Please Be Patient this may take a moment to load. ** Once the java-irc page has loaded it will either appear infront of or behind your web browser. You will know it's there because it will ask the below questions: Nickname: Username: email: Answer the questions and click 'Connect'. After a short time text will scroll up the screen then stop. In the small oblong section at the bottom type: /join #ufo Within a few seconds you should be connected to the channel. The window is fully resizeable. --- We look forward to seeing you there. -------------------------------- United Kingdom UFO Network ufo@holodeck.demon.co.uk http://www.holodeck.demon.co.uk/ --------------------------------
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 21 Re: An Out of Body Contact with a Grey? From: Nemesis <nemesis@fastinternet.net.au> Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 00:47:55 +1000 Fwd Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 07:24:52 -0500 Subject: Re: An Out of Body Contact with a Grey? >From: Joseph Poloniak <jpolanik@mindspring.com> >Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 21:38:53 -0500 (EST) >To: UFO Updates <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: An Out of Body Contact with a Grey? >Waldo Vieria is a Brazilian doctor who has experienced OBEs, Out >of Body Experiences, since the age of 6. He is now about 70. In >'Projections of the Consciousness', he describes many of his >OBEs. Then perhaps he had a contact experience and has been telepathic since. >In one of them he found himself in a strange city. His >account continues: >A faint yellowish light permeated the whole city. It seemed >like the scenery was permanently immersed in an eternal gloom. I >was not able to locate any planets or stars in the grayish sky. Titan perhaps, which has a photochemical smog and very low light levels. >As they passed me, a group of friendly-looking extrphysical >consciousnesses warned: "Beware of robbers." >Within moments a consciousness having a human form with >animal-like features, incapable of hiding the evil, dark nature >of its psychosoma, lunged at me with all its might in a sudden >extraphysical attack. It was frenetically trying to drain all >the life force from me like a vampire or energetic leach. I >seemed as though it would have inhaled me whole, if it could. Perhaps no more than the Titanian equivalent of a friendly slap on the back. It is hard to interpret feelings when in another body, since the usual chemical mediators are not active. You feel three states: impassiveness, elation and abrupt anxiety. >I tried to free myself from it by emitting energy of peace >with all my might. Surprisingly, the extraphysical consciousness >backed away as if it had received an electric shock, and >disappeared as quickly as it had appeared. Perhaps its reaction was: "Whoops,I didn't realize you are currently possessed by a Terran." >Do you think he might have encountered a grey, or something >similar? In a way, yes. Had he found a mirror, he would have seen that he was at that time in the body of one of the graia as well. Lawrie____
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 21 RAMS & 'Silver Veil' From: <webmaster@cdfnet.com> Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 08:54:25 -0600 Fwd Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 07:31:09 -0500 Subject: RAMS & 'Silver Veil' Press Release We announce on our web site in the next few days Robert A. M. Stephens' much awaited data on the Silver Veil. Last fall Robert appeared on a number of talk shows culminating with an abortive interview on the Art Bell show. Stephens, a NASA contractor of many years' experience, brought to light a number of new concepts to a community which purports to seek the truth about contact with extraterrestrials. What we are bringing out in the next few days is exactly what Robert said all along. We are presenting the first, if only, look at the Silver Veil anywhere on the web. He talked about it. Now we are ready to present it. The real details we are providing, although of course sketchy due to the classified nature of most of the projects involved, promise extrordinary insight. Before Robert no one in the UFO community was discussing Silver Veil. Now it and a number of other projects such as X-60 and SoL (Speed of Light Technologies) are surfacing. The NORAD Silver Veil, we quote from Robert's documentation: "...is the main Management and Primary Vehicle on orbit in the Fence program. It oversees all Intruder Assessment, Diagnostic for Targeting, reporting primary to ground control,and is the primary sourcing for reconnaisance in space. It functions as a coordinator with the 8 other cousins in the Fence Parameter Battle Earth Space Protocol Regimes (FPBESPR). Stage 4 will consits of the next level of technological packaging with more advanced reconnaisance capability. " Robert A. M. Stephens, after witnessing his curious debacle/abortive interview on the Art Bell show and preemptive discussion on others, demonstrates here on his web site that what he has said is true. After numerous calls, national and international, regarding Stephens' validity, his apparently cynical approach to the facetious, if arrogant talk show community is here vindicated. When an insider lets out a little information it is much more than all the speculation that the channellers and what he labels as the "Strange" community can muster. On the web site then in the next couple of days is the first release, if sketchy, of the Silver Veil. We hope that it is the first of much more, although, given the cynical response of "Who Cares" by some, we wonder if the talk show community would be better off continuing to huckster its empty, simplistic wares. We close then with this quote again from Robert encouraging you to stay tuned to : http://www.cdfnet.com/RAMSES The question then is, and Robert Stephens ask this with the most conviction, "what are we looking for in space?" This comes from someone who is directly involved in failure assessment, documentation, and modifcication work involving this very subject. Good question then we must all ponder. We close again with Robert A. M. Stephens' own words: It lends also the gravity of Stephens military like assessment of this culture that unless we clean ourselves up, no one is going to be told anything. If the very people who work on this technlogy like Stephens are in question of it all, then it stands that we must raise the level of query to the same standard as we see in the technical acumen revealed in these very documents. I guess we are forewarned."
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 21 Down To Earth Magazine - UK Update From: Roy Hale <roy.hale@virgin.net> Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 15:47:41 -0000 Fwd Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 07:33:10 -0500 Subject: Down To Earth Magazine - UK Update Dear Colleagues, I would just like to post the following information, regarding Down To Earth Magazine of which I am the editor. Due to the magazine going through changes our Ad prices have been brought in line with the rising costs for printing and distribution. They are still cheaper than most other magazines, but are also in line with current Ad prices. The quality of Down to Earth magazine has increased four-fold of recent and our main drive is to have the magazine full colour by the end of this year. (Those receiving the latest issue (5) please dis-regard the old Ad prices.) Advertising enquiries are welcome World -Wide and you will need to contact myself on the above e-mail address with your full clear Advertising instructions & details. Down To Earth Magazine new Ad prices as of February 1999: FULL PAGE AD (B&W): =A3200. 2/3 PAGE: =A3150. 1/2 PAGE: =A3125. 1/3 PAGE: =A3100. 1/4 PAGE: =A370.00 DISPLAY BOX: =A330.00 OUTSIDE BACK COVER (COLOUR) =A3300. INSIDE FRONT COVER: (COLOUR) =A3300. INSIDE BACK COVER (COLOUR) =A3300. Editor: Roy Hale - roy.hale@virgin.net for inquiries on / Article Placements/ General Magazine information. For all those who wish to purchase a copy of Down to Earth, and are unable to reach the shops you can secure yourself a copy by Mail Order, enclosing a cheque / postal order for =A32.50p for p&p =A32.00 for magazine 0.50p for posting. Send to: Roy Hale (Down To Earth Magazine) 21 Sparrow Green, Bull Lane Dagenham Essex RM10 7EU U.K. Editorial discretion will be shown for all adverts. Anyone wishing to contribute to the magazine should send all submissions to the above address. We would welcome articles from both "Believers" and "Non - Believers" of the ETH, as we feel this gives a fair balance. But we will only accept constructive positive non - slanderous articles on the UFO subject, we want to leave the dog fights outside the door. We currently have writers in , UK, Italy, Australia, US, Canada, Mainland Europe, Latin America, we would like to hear from writers of the Scandinavian countries, also Africa, amongst others. We also Exchange magazines with groups from around the World, if you have a magazine and would like to exchange please forward your details to the above e-mail address. If any of you are still not sure on any of the above, then please do not hesitate to contact me on the above e-mail address. Please also remember Advertising will also be doubled on our forth-coming web-site( Which allows for more viewing for Advertisers), which is near on completion. Magazine issues will be posted to the web-site, one issue behind the current. Wishing you all the best, Roy Hale (Editor)
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 21 Re: 'Implants' - Confirmed? From: Mike Farrell <mikefarr@midcoast.com.au> Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 02:54:50 +1100 Fwd Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 07:42:32 -0500 Subject: Re: 'Implants' - Confirmed? >Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 23:15:22 -0500 >From: Jacquie Cosford <millpond@shaw.wave.ca> >Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 23:15:22 -0500 >Subject: Re: 'Implants' - Confirmed? >Lately, while falling asleep, I've been hearing a very loud >buzzing sound. This sound is difficult to explain but it isn't >"auditory" in nature as it is "heard" in my head and felt as a >vibration. >My question is this... has anyone else recently been >experiencing this? This is from my abductee friend (AC), who is sincere, but protective of his identity. Though, I can say that "AC" gives you some idea of how "it all" looks from down here! (To those that wonder...honestly, it's not me! After 20 years of UFO research, I should be so lucky as to finally "see one" of those "little buggers"!;->) Mike Farrell Project GUFONE Australia --- From Australian Abductee (AC): To the lady who has the buzzing sound, Yes, I do get intervals when the audible "noise comes through. It is a humming sound that lasts for about ten to twenty seconds. And also during my youth and later into adulthood, vibrations at the onset of sleep would also happen. Literally my bed would start to shake and vibrate until I was completely awake. The night of my abduction, I was awoken by this very phenomenon, and then was instantly paraylized, and then woke up the next morning with a very irate wife wondering "where on earth" I had been for the past several hours whilst she looked for me. Also To the lady's inquiry, does she have the "Blue lights" that are associated with the "Buzzing Sounds"? Regards, AC ----------
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 21 Re: Phil Klass and The Trent Photos From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com> Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 13:24:57 EST Fwd Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 08:11:28 -0500 Subject: Re: Phil Klass and The Trent Photos >From: DRudiak@aol.com >Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 14:18:19 EST >To: updates@globalserve.net >Subject: Re: Phil Klass and The Trent Photos >>From: Royce J. Myers III <rjm3@sprintmail.com> >>Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 11:19:13 -0800 >>Fwd Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 10:53:04 -0500 >>Subject: Phil Klass and The Trent Photos >Snip >Another objection to the Trent photos was why didn't others see >the object? Again a site visit by skeptics would have provided >a logical answer. The area was very sparsely populated, >consisting primarily of large open farm fields with a few farm >houses scattered here and there. Even today, there probably >aren't more than about 30-50 people per square mile. <snip> Hi Dave; Regarding why many more people than do... do not see an anomalous object, a UFO... I live in a community of 500 families. Each one of these families has a terrace. Five buildings, 100 terraces, and most of these are occupied each summer evening, with folks outside, taking in the cooler evening air. Last August I saw a huge triangular flying object flying at a calculated 3500 feet above our condo.... the thing had to be 900 or so feet at it's widest point. It made no sound, it was all lit up, glowing with a metallic silver/gray light of it's own, it was flying with a flat edge leading, not a point, it had unimaginably bright strobing blue-white and red lights flashing and carried three yellow lights at each apex. One would imagine that this sight alone would prompt some reaction by other humans. Additive, I was screaming at my wife to come out on the terrace to see this "UFO" and at the top of my lungs. They must have heard me in Kansas! But not one of my neighbors, at ten o'clock at night, bothered to call me, write me, call the cops, OR EVEN LOOK UP! So help me, I was hyperventilating at this sight, watching conventional aircraft flying at a thousand feet _under_ this thing, perpendicular to it's flight path, screaming for "Rosemarie, come out here quick, you just have to see this huge.... yadda, yadda, yadda...." The only witnesses were about 35 or so people in the entire county of Westchester in NY State, the bedroom of NY City. Thirty five folks called the State Police, and all of these were further north of me, in a more remote part of the County, where people are rarely inside their homes on a summer evening. Go figure. I am sure that skeptics would say that it's because there was nothing there. And I might just agree. In August, here in Westchester County, there is a great deal of swamp gas which accumulates in the ... eh ... the swamps of Westchester. The State Police Troopers (two of them) swore that what they saw was ... not conventional and not even possible. The one witness who, independent of everyone else, swore that a huge triangle "landed" over a large swamp (actually it was a reservoir, but we need to be consistent here) also decreibed the object as over a thousaond feet wide, triangle, etc... (poor bastard) must've been Grippling like the rest of us. And how about those Mets? Gesundt
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 21 Re: Pope On A Rope From: Andy Roberts <Brigantia@compuserve.com> Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 13:33:15 -0500 Fwd Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 08:13:30 -0500 Subject: Re: Pope On A Rope >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net> >Subject: Re: Pope On A Rope >Date: Wed, 17 Feb 99 10:56:21 PST >I can't believe that the point I am trying to make -- that >Pope's being disingenuous about an experience he >clearly did not want to own up to is an understandable >and recognizable, if lamentable, human action -- >continues to elude the ever censorious and self-righteous >Mr. Roberts. Or maybe I can. I would bring up the old saw >about how Americans and Brits are divided by a common >language, except that I strongly suspect that our other >British readers understand perfectly well what I'm saying here. I've made my point. We should not trust anything produced by any ufologists if they are proven liars. Happy Trails Andy
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 21 Re: 'Confirmation' - New York Times Blinks From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj@proaxis.com> Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 11:52:50 -0800 (PST) Fwd Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 08:16:23 -0500 Subject: Re: 'Confirmation' - New York Times Blinks >From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com> >Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 13:56:46 EST >To: updates@globalserve.net >Subject: Re: 'Confirmation' - New York Times Blinks >Hmmm. Speaking hypothetically, what would your reaction have >been to an anomolous object hovering, accelerating, carrying >multiple lights (like a Christmas tree) and performing >abnormally for all to see? Abnormally, defying the laws of >physics and performaing in a most alien (to our technology) way! >Silently! >Let's say you were familiar with basic physics... with basic >science. Let's say you were a professional at making >observations, say, like a police officer... officers... >If "we" had stuff like that in our repertoire of weaponry and >aircraft, could it possibly be that we've been flying it for >decades in total secret? Not using it against our enemies? And >flying it in full view of citizens all over the world? But >secretly, of course! What appelation would you use to attempt >defining this "thing," in the light of the show's focus? A >putty tat, maybe? Swamp gas? Gripple? Unidentified flying >solid object defying all the known laws of physics. >UFSODATKLOP! Jim, One of us must be missing the other's point. Given your hyothetical situation above, what would my reaction be? I think I'd rush around to as many of these "all" who also witnessed the event and try to get them to let me take down their names and phone numbers. Then I'd report the sighting to the (US) National UFO Reporting Center, and then perhaps write a letter to the editor of my local newspaper about it. >Have you ever seen an anomalous object? One that defies all >manner of science and physics that we understand and know? If >you've studied the phenom and eliminated everything possible >except psychosis, what else may it be? If your answer is >psychosis, you are hopeless. Yes, precisely, I'd call it a UFO. I think you're lecturing to the wrong person! Yes, I have seen a few UFOs, with at least two of them being very anomalous. There's a link to them on my web site at: http://www.proaxis.com/~deardorj
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 21 Re: NBC-Video 'Confirmation' Available? From: Royce J. Myers III <rjm3@sprintmail.com> Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 12:34:41 -0800 Fwd Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 08:21:22 -0500 Subject: Re: NBC-Video 'Confirmation' Available? >Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 09:00:44 -0500 >From: Joachim Koch <AchimKoch@compuserve.com> >Subject: NBC-Video 'Confirmation' Available? >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Hello List! >Yesterday I popped in the NBC website to look for additional >information about the NBC special "Confirmation" because nobody >here was aware of that tv special. >I found out that they offer a video entitled 'Confirmation'. >Could anyone please tell me if this is the same as what was >broadcasted or at least contains the main segments! >Thanks a lot >Joachim Koch, Berlin Yes it is. The only difference is that it has 12 additional minutes of footage and an interview with Art Bell. I was glad to see that Whitley had enough sense not to include the Bell segment, it was hard enough being credible with the Robert Stack rip-off host they had to begin with. --Royce J. Myers III
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 21 Re: Pope On A Rope From: Tim Matthews <matthews@zetnet.co.uk> Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 18:22:15 -0000 Fwd Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 08:29:38 -0500 Subject: Re: Pope On A Rope >Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 12:46:26 -0500 >From: Andy Roberts <Brigantia@compuserve.com> >Subject: Pope On A Rope >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >>From: Max Burns <AlienHype@aol.com> >>Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 03:12:56 EST >>To: updates@globalserve.net >>Subject: Re: Pope On A Rope >>Well, said Jerry. Mr Roberts and his group seem to have the >>attitude that if your opinion differs from theirs you are >>either full of delusions, making it all up for attention, or >>part of the lunatic-fringe. >Hardly Max, all we seek from other ufologists is the clear >presentation of evidence claimed and the chance to be able to >investigate it or comment on it ourselves. >This is not unreasonable and the more exotic the claims the less >unreasonable it becomes. Far too many people are introducing >what are little more than 'stories' into the UFO community and >expecting them to be swallowed whole with no digestive process. >If that is what passes for ufology then we should all be trying >to change it. The other excellent example, beyond the fantasy of the Howden Moor fiasco, is the Mark Lloyd 'sighting' where Lloyd claims that a 3 miles long UFO hovered for 20-30 minutes over Cheshire on the same day as the "Manchester Near Miss" incident of January 1995. He is the only person to have seen this. In an area with a population of several millions! >The fact that quite a lot of 'exotic' UFO cases are in fact >touted in the UK by people who are 'making it all up' or are >part of the 'lunatic fringe' just goes with the territory. And >adds to the fun. >>This group of ufologists in the UK, involved in the forming of >>I.U.N UK, appear to be trying to force anyone who differs with >>them into submission or hound them out of ufology. The forces of law and order are much more likely to hound Max out of Ufology - and this is not a conspiracy! >Max displays his considerable ignorance of UK ufology. Again. >The IUN has been in existence since 1988, published over thirty >magazines, was responsible for bringing many US ufologists to >the UK (Keel, Vallee, Friedman, Moore, Howe, etc), produces in >depth reports, organises conferences, supports case research etc >etc. >We have no intention of forcing anyone into submission or >hounding them out of ufology. But we will no longer work >silently behind the scenes. >>It smacks of a full-out effort by 'intelligence' groups to >>suppress research by ufologists. >This just causes us to laugh 'til we're hoarse. Whenever good, >hard core sceptics start to solve cases, take a high profile and >head the believers off at the pass they have only one get out >clause - 'Mummy, mummy, it's obviously a concerted effort by >'intelligence' groups.' Absolutely right. According to Max and 'Terminator2001' I work for Mossad and MI5, Not to mention Odessa. Quite how this is possible is anyone's guess and no wonder that "skeptics" have to get organised...... I am, after all, an IUN operative...... >Hell, if I was approached and asked to work for such a group and >they would pay me I would gladly do it. Being paid for >scepticism - just imagine! The fact is they have never >approached anyone that I know of in UK ufology over the past 20 >odd years. Why do they need to bother? With people like Max and Mark Lloyd around spreading their nonsense the intelligence community, such as it is, hardly needs to bother with spreading "disinformation" within Ufology. There are so many wacky beliefs, and wacky believers that I think alot of us find it difficult to believe we're involved with this subject sometimes. >>This simply cannot be allowed to happen. If you search the >>UpDates archive at Ufomind you'll see a deliberate pattern of >>action by these individuals - none of which has anything to do >>with research into the subject matter. >No, you'll see a deliberate pattern of the following: >Sceptics in the UK becoming more organised and cohesive, >determined to take and investigate exotic UFO claims (such as >'crashes' like Rendlesham, Berwyn Mountain, the Sheffield >Incident, sundry 'abductions' etc etc). We have managed to stem >the tide of sensible ufologists leaving the field and to start >to act positively to counter the growing UFO mythologies. >Anyone got a problem with that? Certainly not and it's about time. I think that there is a misconception here. Skeptics do not believe that nothing is happening; just that there are not masses of alien craft abducting people, mutilating animals, probing unwitting suspects and doing shady deals with secret groups of Bilderbergers in underground facilities.... Many people within IUN#2 believe that there ARE earthlights and secret military aircraft etc. They even support the views of scientists that there may be intelligent life out there........ >>Jerry you have to understand - these are the self-appointed >>'elite' of British ufology - they spend their days sharing and >>cross-fertilising each others posts when the need to destroy >>cases and people comes up. >Actually Max - you've appointed us the elite. But hey, let's not >be modest. We are all pretty damn good researchers and >investigators with an excellent published track record. We know >how to research a case efficiently and we know how to get the >results into the UFO press. >Anyone got a problem with that? >>In reality they are a group of highly-motivated and agressive >>predators who are well organised >Damn right! But we know our stuff. What's wrong with being >highly motivated and aggressive? What's wrong with being well >organised? >This ain't no party, this ain't no disco, this ain't no fooling >around. >>and will stop at nothing to >>suppress and debunk all aspects of anything 'ET', feeding the >>continuing confusion in ufology.. Not true! We're actually trying to simplify and demystify events. >Rubbish Max - we work on cases and ufologists and make people >aware of our findings. The 'confusion' is only there because of >people like yourself. >>I do not fear the psychology of ridicule that people like this >>employ >Good! >>or asking questions about motivation and reasons for >>their being in ufology. They're involved in Ufology because it's their choice, and interest.... >But you just did Max! >>It just seems rather pointless behaviour to me >>unless there's a hidden agenda. There is no hidden agenda, just a sensible response to years of nonsense........like the claim that alien craft 'took out' and 'vanished' other aircraft over Sheffield a couple of years ago.....
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 21 Re: Miami 'Circle' is Railroad Turntable From: Dr. Virgilio Sanchez-Ocejo <pharaoh@web2000.net> Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 21:39:32 -0800 Fwd Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 09:00:20 -0500 Subject: Re: Miami 'Circle' is Railroad Turntable [I think I was suffering 'brain-cramp' when I posted RAMS observations on the Miami story. This will be the last post in this thread - unless it suddenly relates to UFO phenomena --ebk] This article appears in The Miami Herald, Thursday, February 18,1999, page 12 A, after I forward Mr. Martin Merzer, the e-mail signed by Robert A.M. Stephens. Archaeologists dispute alternative theories. By Martin Merzer Miami Herald Senior Writer. Is it just a random collection of natural holes? The drain field for septic tank? The remains of a circular driveway? Or of a landscape arrangement of palm trees? Of a narow-gauge railroad turntable? Of a water tower? Many alternate explanations for the Miami Circle have been proposed by scientists, New Age adherents and the very imaginative. Miami-Dade archaeologists and other experts who have examined the site say those theories are wrong. They say the Circle, whatever its purpose might have been, was carved by humans hundreds of years ago. "Its too easy for someone to analyze something they haven't seen," said John Ricisak, a Miami-Dade archaeologist and field director on the Circle site. "I've been here virtually every day for seven months. No one knows better than I what this may be." John Gifford, an archaeologist at the university of Miami's Rosenstiel School of Marine and Atmospheric Science, has examined the site six times since September. Any chance it is not hundreds of years old and created by humans? "Zero," Gifford said. "This is an archaeological site that is at least 500 and possible 2,000 years old. It is not recent." Here's a look at some of the theories: (1) Natural holes that happen to form a circular pattern. Some believe that the basins within the Circle and other holes on the site were caused by rain water and minerals that leached through the limestone bedrock. Though such holes are found elswhere in South Florida, local archaeologists say the rectangular basins and most of the other holes in or near the Circle bear unmistakable markings of ancient tools. One tool in particular, a wood stake tipped with a sharp seashell, has been shown capable of penetrating the limestone, Ricisak said. In addition, Gifford said: "The mayority of the holes all share common characteristics of size and depth. I think they are contemporary with each other and pre-Columbian in time." That means they were carved before Christopher Columbus'arrival in the Americas in 1492. (2) The drain field of the septic tank still on the site and once used by a now-razed apartment complex. Again, the holes appear to have tool markings, archaeologists say. In addition, the elevation of the site would have carried drainage away from most of the Circle, Ricisak said. (3) The remains of a circular driveway or holes dug for palm trees once found on the Brickell estate that sat on the site. Ricisak said close study has shown that the driveway and the Circle do not line up. As for the holes dug for the palm trees... "Ridiculous," Ricisak said. "If I'm not going to dig a regular pattern of rectangular holes. The holes would be round. And again, the tool marks are not consistent with those of a shovel or a pick ax." (4) The foundation of a narrow-gauge railroad's turntable or a water tower. These theories have gained credence on the Internet, but research by archaeologists and The Herald has found no evidence that either structure ever existed on the site. Local archaeologists said they welcome theories on what purpose the Circle might have served. But at this point, they have little patience for those who insist it may not be of archaeological value. "That's part of science, the need to withstand the criticism of our peers." Ricisak said. "But it's frustating to keep dealing with these things that come from people who have never seen the site." Herald senior writer Martin Merzer can be reached by e-mail at: <mmerzer@herald.com>
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 21 Re: 'Confirmation' - New York Times Blinks From: GT McCoy <gtmccoy@harborside.com> Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 19:26:49 -0800 Fwd Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 09:09:44 -0500 Subject: Re: 'Confirmation' - New York Times Blinks >From: Ignatius Graffeo <Ufoseek@aol.com> >Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 08:45:09 EST >To: Updates@globalserve.net >Subject: 'Confirmation' - New York Times Blinks >Following this editorial opinion is the New York Times review of >'Confirmation: The Hard Evidence of Aliens Among Us?' >The NY Times (no surprise) takes the hardline position of denial >until "real" proof is presented and focused too closely on the >negative "ridicule factor" that NBC News distastefully attached >to it. Hello all, Yes, I believe that Klaatu could land on the roof of the NY Times, Gort, in his indignation destroys the buliding, and they would interview Klass on...oh never mind. >NBC calling both sides of the coin here to garner "sweeps" >ratings while adding its own laughable 'spin-doctoring', using an >incredulous host (did you notice that weird heavy black cape he >wore?). If he was in New York, a cape is effective keep Pigeon droppings off the regular clothes. >Actor Robert Davi looked like a hybrid of Dr. Frankensien and >Igor. The truth is plainly evident behind the makeup! Yesss master, ehhehunnnneh, ehhehunneh. >NBC's 'Aliens' riddled with questions >John Martin - New York Times Syndicate > The first thing I want to tell you about "Confirmation: The >Hard Evidence of Aliens Among Us?" (NBC at 8) is that you should >take a close look at the title. >Notice that question mark at the end? How about review? Unprejudicial? Unbiased? Critique? Amazing thing the Question-Mark??? >It should tell you that the two-hour-long February ratings >"sweeps" special contains "evidence" that is dubious at best and >that a word as unequivocal as "confirmation" is ridiculously >misplaced. >Next, notice that the host is actor Robert Davi. If NBC ever >digs up anything close to confirmation it will be Tom Brokaw or, >at least, Jane Pauley and Stone Phillips delivering the news, >not the grim-faced co-star of NBC's "Profiler." >This freak show is as indefensible as the press release (also >dotted with questions marks) that arrived with it. You know,if this "reviewer" ever had any thing remotely miraculous or unknowable happened to him he is of the "bit of undigested beef" school. >For example, NBC boasts that the special contains "eyewitness >accounts from police who've witnessed alien craft." In fact, the >Ohio police officer makes a point of saying he doesn't know what >he saw. Minor detail? What _did_ he _see? Cops, Pilots, ATC, people tend to be, ah, _observers_ and are fully aware of most "situations" that concern their occupations. >As to the footage of an operation to remove what a man says he >believes is an alien implant, again NBC calls it "alleged." How is "it" explained, in the context of the show? Seems to me there isn't room to blow it off. >There's a chance we've been visited. There's a chance people >have been abducted. One can only hope that the reviewer is accorded the chance. >But what's the chance that in the 52 years since the alleged >Roswell UFO crash everyone supposedly involved in the cover-up >carried the secret to their grave? I don't think so-yet. >What is certain is that thousands of flying saucer hoaxes have >been exposed and scores of authors and newsletter editors are >making a lot of money from the UFO-conspiracy/alien abduction >industry. Gee EBK, Glenn, John, Stanton, Don, et.al. What a gold mine this UFO biz is! >And I'll go out on a limb here and suggest that there are as >many people in mental institutions who are convinced they are >Jesus Christ as there are people who believe they've been >abducted by aliens. Okay, how 'bout Napoleon(s) too. Meglomainia isn't restricted to those who "believe". >Confirmation? Hard evidence? >We're still waiting. Yes pilgrims, so am I so am I. -GT McCoy "Get your facts first, then distort them as much as you want" - Mark Twain
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 21 Re: Pope On A Rope From: James Easton <pulsar@compuserve.com> Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 22:40:14 -0500 Fwd Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 09:12:02 -0500 Subject: Re: Pope On A Rope >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net> >Subject: Re: Pope On A Rope >Date: Thu, 18 Feb 99 11:45:34 PST Jerry wrote: >After several readings, I fear James's meaning continues to >elude me. Jerry, Yes, I see what you mean. I had highlighted your comments to Andy Roberts: >I'm afraid our friend shows his hand here. We are informed, >with precisely no evidence bearing one way or another on the >question, that Nick Pope's (er, excuse me, "Popey's") experience >was "imaginary." How do we know? How do we know such a claimed 'experience' is imaginary... we perhaps don't, however, there is rarely evidence to prove the 'negative', so is any self-proclaimed abductee and implantee given the benefit of doubt? The point was, it isn't a question of whether Nick Pope or anyone's alleged 'experiences' are imaginary, the issue is what evidence exists to substantiate an 'alien abduction' claim, not the reverse. I was maybe trying to put this diplomatically - I appreciate that personal experiences by their nature can't easily offer tangible evidence. As noted, there appears be no documented claim by Nick Pope that he was ever 'abducted', he has replied with amusement indicating otherwise, the 'Sunday Times' article doesn't actually contain a single quoted statement from him and consequently, the entire issue seems to be speculation. If he has made such a claim, perhaps someone can provide the 'confirmation'. James. E-mail: pulsar@compuserve.com
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 21 'Full Disclosure' On 'The X-Files' From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@get2net.dk> Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 04:39:49 GMT Fwd Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 09:16:05 -0500 Subject: 'Full Disclosure' On 'The X-Files' Source: The Contra Costa Times via the Star-Telegram, http://www.star-telegram.com:80/news/doc/1047/1:ENTNEWS68/1:ENTNEWS68021999.= html Stig *** Updated: Friday, Feb. 19, 1999 at 08:44 CST X-Cursions: 'The future is here and all bets are off' By Michael Liedtke and George Avalos Contra Costa Times ** For weeks, we heard that "The X-Files" brain trust planned to use the first two Sundays in February for "full disclosure" about the head-spinning conspiracy that has confounded viewers for 5 1/2 years. After watching the latest episode, "One Son," we must admit that series creator Chris Carter fulfilled the promise. The show really did bare all: we got to see Agents Mulder and Scully naked together in the shower. Other than that revealing scene, this episode really didn't show us a whole lot more than we already had conjured in our vivid imaginations. In many ways, the series is cloaked in even more mystery than it was before "One Son." OK, so this episode more or less marked the end of a 50-year conspiracy between a secretive cabal of power-mongering Earthlings known as the "Syndicate" and a domineering species of extraterrestrials who intend to annex the planet as part of their intergalactic fiefdom. But we are left to ponder the myriad new conspiracies that may arise from the ashes of the Syndicate members, who were torched by the faceless rebel aliens, a group that might have its own designs on Earth. The faceless aliens have launched a scheme that, while hostile to the black-oil aliens, doesn't necessarily mean they are going to extend an olive branch to the human race. These rebel aliens seem to be following a scorched-Earth strategy -- literally. And if these warring alien factions aren't enough for Mulder and Scully to worry about, there are still plenty of slippery humans around to muddle things even further. The Cigarette-Smoking Man (CSM) and his new errand girl, Agent Diana Fowley, are still around to hatch their behind-the-scenes schemes, and the always-elusive double agent, Alex Krycek, remains the series' chameleon -- a one-armed man who seems heroic one minute and despicable the next. Also, an important piece of the conspiratorial puzzle introduced in the "X-Files" movie remains in place. The Syndicate's leader, Conrad Strughold, wasn't present during the rebel aliens' immolation of his colleagues in that West Virginia hangar. Presumably, he is still free to continue the exotic experiments that he has been marshaling in the Tunisian desert. All in all, we think Carter omitted a key phrase in his promotion for this much-hyped two-part arc in the "X-Files." The teasers should have declared, "Full Disclosure; Virtually No Closure." WHAT WE LEARNED: As we suspected, the Syndicate had been planning to double-cross the aliens all along. The Syndicate's cooperation was just a ruse to buy time for the human race and develop a vaccine to fight the extraterrestrial virus. "The plan was to stall, to resist, to save everyone," CSM told Mulder. Mulder's sister, Samantha, was abducted as part of a twisted quid pro quo worked out between the Syndicate and the aliens. The Syndicate received an alien fetus in return for donating someone from each of their nuclear families. This wasn't a huge revelation for anyone who saw the video version of the movie. Speaking of the movie, the film's alley-dwelling informant, Alvin Kurtzweil, was right about the government declaring a state of emergency once the alien colonization begins. Assuming Kurtzweil was right on this point, then it seems logical to presume he was also accurate when he said the Federal Emergency Management Administration would orchestrate this devious act at the start of a long holiday weekend. It may just be a coincidence, but the "X-Files" season finale is scheduled to occur just before Memorial Day weekend in May. WHAT WE DON'T KNOW: Did CSM add his son, the ineffectual but increasingly noble Agent Spender, to his ever-growing count of murder victims, or will Spender resurface under unexplained circumstances? Did CSM really intend to kill Spender, or are they both faking the death? Did Cassandra Spender really die in that inferno at the El Rico Air Force Base in West Virginia? Or did the rebel aliens cart her away and claim her as a sort of extraterrestrial prisoner of war? The FBI bureaucracy is officially listing Cassandra among the charred corpses, but keep in mind that CSM has an incentive to make it appear that she is dead even if she remains alive. Why did the faceless rebels steal the alien fetus and what are they planning to do with it? What exactly is the relationship between CSM and Fowley? The look that they exchanged when they first saw each other in the hangar suggested their camaraderie might extend beyond professional chicanery. When CSM visited the quarantined Cassandra, he placed something on her cart. What was it? What will become of Marita Covarrubias -- Mulder's one-time informant, Krycek's former lover -- who's now a seriously damaged guinea pig from the Syndicate's aborted experiments? Mulder peeked at Scully's naked body while they were in the shower. Did his ogling offend Scully, who seemed to turn away once she saw him looking? How much did Scully see of Mulder? Did Mulder take another, much colder shower after checking out Scully? What was the deal with the Syndicate members' hair in 1973? Did they moonlight as a troupe of Elvis imitators to conceal their true agenda from society's suspicious minds? QUOTE OF THE WEEK: "The future is here and all bets are off," Mulder advised his soon-to-be former boss, Assistant Director Kersh. X-Cursions is dispatched weekly by Contra Costa (Calif.) Times staff writers Michael Liedtke and George Avalos, who will be thinking of Scully's birthday suit when she turns 35 on Feb. 23. E-mail them at mliedtke@cctimes.com or gavalos@cctimes.com. Or visit them by going to www.hotcoco.com and typing "xfiles" in the quickword area. Distributed by Knight Ridder/Tribune Information Services. =A9 1999 Star-Telegram -- Terms and Conditions -- Send us your Feedback.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 21 A Poststructuralist Take On The UFO Phenomenon From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@get2net.dk> Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 05:14:31 GMT Fwd Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 09:29:13 -0500 Subject: A Poststructuralist Take On The UFO Phenomenon [List only] Source: Reason Magazine, http://www.reasonmag.com:80/9903/bk.mg.learned.html Stig *** REASON * March 1999 Learned Nonsense By Mark Goldblatt Aliens in America: Conspiracy Cultures from Outerspace to Cyberspace, by Jodi Dean, Ithaca: Cornell University Press, 242 pages, $15.95 paper ** The author of Aliens in America, Jodi Dean, is a professor at Hobart and William Smith Colleges; the publisher is a respected university press. With a cursory glance at the title, therefore, an unwary reader might anticipate a learned inquiry into extraterrestrial phenomena. But in Dean's poststructuralist take on UFO sightings and alien abductions, E.T. takes a back seat to politics. From the first page to the last, in fact, the author remains doggedly agnostic with regard to the reality of what she is describing. Reality itself (a word she prefers to put inside quotation marks) is pretty much beside the point for Dean, whose academic field is not astronomy but political science and whose previous work concerned the rather more earthbound subjects of feminism and identity politics. Dean's thesis in this book, insofar as it can be encapsulated, is that "to claim to have seen a UFO, to have been abducted by aliens, or even to believe those who say they have" constitutes "a political act" because it "contests the status quo"--a status quo that is both political and epistemological. On the political front, she rounds up and slimes the usual b=EAtes noires of the left: white guys, big corporations, the military-industrial complex. On the epistemological front, Dean's case is far more radical, arguing that the popularity of ufology "marks the widespread conviction that previously clear and just languages and logics...are now alien, now inseparable from their irrational others." Alien narratives, in short, "challenge us to face head-on...the dissolution of notions of truth, rationality, and credibility" in the information age. Before continuing, I should note that already I have misrepresented Dean's enterprise. To refer to her thesis as a "thesis" is to belie the book's critical method and, ultimately, its raison d'=EAtre. For thesis implies a logical structure, an argument developed according to principles of inductive and deductive reasoning. By contrast, Dean's book is based on a technique of pseudo-analysis that amounts to a verbal Rorschach test. Rather than argue points, she links--her favorite word--disparate ideas by mere juxtaposition, forging connections that range from mildly intriguing (UFO sightings are linked with apocalyptic anxieties in our era and in the last fin de si=E8cle) to bizarre (astronauts are linked with mainframe computers, witnesses to alien abductions with networked PCs) to obscene (the death of Christa McAuliffe in the Challenger explosion is linked with the perception of outer space as menacing and, finally, with the supposed sexual violation of female abductees). What you get, in effect, is a performance, a routine of synaptic somersaults in which Dean free-associates on the themes of aliens and UFOs. Mostly, it's by-the-numbers stuff: The space race, she notes, was more about politics than science; the seven original Mercury astronauts were all white, male, and married--and thus did not represent a true cross section of America; and the Internet has enabled people who would once have been deemed harmless kooks to connect and form a growing subculture. But the performance veers toward unintended farce in moments of wildly misplaced smugness, the philosophical equivalent of Wile E. Coyote's triumphant snickering as he lights the fuse of his Acme rocket skates: "It is hardly surprising," Dean writes, "that a new skepticism toward religious thinking--this time that which masks itself as science--has emerged." Or: "I guess he [a writer who stresses the importance of fact checking] is reassured by the vagueness of categories such as `facts' and `reality' and the nostalgia they invoke." Or: "The fact that abduction accesses the stresses and excesses of millennial technoculture doesn't get to the truth of abduction (as if getting to truth were still a possibility)." Considered in itself, Dean's is a pro-foundly silly book on a numbingly pathetic subject--a parade of the duped and the deluded marshaled in support of highbrow posturing by which the duped and the deluded would themselves be appalled. After all, if you spend your life insisting on the reality of your alien encounter, you do not want to hear that "reality" is itself an illusion. Considered as a scholarly work, written by a college professor and published by a university press, Dean's book is symptomatic of a much deeper problem in American intellectual life. The problem is that a growing number of highly credentialed academics simply do not know how to think. Not what to think--the reason colleges exist is to haggle out what to think--but how to think. Rational argument is no longer the sine qua non of the advancement of propositions among educated people; indeed, rationality is seen in certain circles not as a method of getting at truth but as an instrument of oppression. As Dean writes: "Argument, thought by some to be an important part of the process of democracy, is futile, perhaps because democracy can bring about Holocaust." Argument is linked to democracy. Democracy is linked to Holocaust. Therefore: Argument is evil. Q.E.D. The most significant question raised by Dean's book, on reflection, has nothing to do with ufology. Rather, it is a more general question: How did nonsense--as a critical genre--come to be equated with scholarship? As I mentioned at the outset, Aliens in America is a "poststructuralist" take on the phenomena of UFO sightings and alien abduction. The term, however, requires clarification. Poststructuralism is the philosophical position, or anti-position, that underpins much of the trendiest academic work, including Dean's. It is a theoretical approach to texts that gained a brief cachet among leftist intellectuals in France in the late 1960s and soon thereafter found a lasting niche in literature and social science departments on American campuses. To understand poststructural theory, you must know its genesis. Despite its French popularizers, it is the bastard child of American New Criticism of the 1930s and '40s--in particular, the precept that the meaning of a text is not controlled by the artist's intention. The New Critics held that a text, once created, should be divorced from what is known about its creator, and its meaning subsequently negotiated, as it were disembodied, by its critical audience. Yet the New Critics never doubted that a text was held together by a "voice," perhaps non-authorial but still a unified presence, or that the text possessed a set of coherent meanings, or that it would sustain certain meanings and contradict others. The poststructural twist on New Criti-cism was the denial that a coherent meaning could ever be had; poststructuralism declared, on the contrary, that every reading is a misreading, that language is always indeterminate and self-contradictory, unbound by any unified voice, and hence that every effort to pin down a meaning is doomed from the start. From such premises is derived the practice of "deconstruction"--the teasing out of secondary and tertiary senses of individual lines, words, or even syllables to show how a text contradicts what it seems clearly to mean. To wit, Jacques Derrida's notorious de-fense of his poststructuralist colleague Paul de Man, who, as a literature professor at Yale, helped popularize deconstruction. In a 1940 essay for the pro-Nazi newspaper Le Soir, de Man, then living in occupied Belgium, stated, "One can thus see that a solution to the Jewish problem that would lead to the creation of a Jewish colony isolated from Europe would not have, for the literary life of the West, regrettable consequences." In 1988, when de Man's wartime writings became public, Derrida defended his friend, contending that de Man was compelling us to think the unthinkable--the erasure of Jews en masse from Europe. In so doing, Derrida argued, de Man reminded us of the right of all people to live in peace. When the critic's goal is to find contradictions, rather than to reconstruct what the text means, then he or she can set aside the logic of observation and inference and take up free association, word play or, in Dean's case, "linking." Thus, the poststructuralist exercise (project is the preferred term but fails to convey how tiresome and repetitive the approach becomes) is always the same: To show how every text resists yielding up a unified, coherent, common-sense meaning--and how such resistance thereby challenges the very idea of "common sense." The text itself need not be a poem or a play or a novel. It can be a religious tract or a political treatise. Or a painting or a photograph or a movie. Or, in more recent examples, a sitcom or soap opera or commercial. Or a pop star. Or a criminal trial. Or, in the case of Aliens in America, the phenomena of UFO sightings and alien abductions. Despite its apparent novelty, then, Dean's exercise remains the perpetual poststructuralist exercise: to show how the text resists a unified, coherent meaning, and thereby challenges common sense. "UFO belief," she writes, "thus challenges the presumption that there is some `public' that shares a notion of reality, a concept of reason, and a set of criteria by which claims to reason and rationality are judged." And again: "Against a scientific priesthood, the individual is held up as an independent source of knowledge. Supporting abductees, or at least respecting their right to their opinions, appears to be radical, a way to resist (for a time) the dominance of scientific and government elites invested not simply in a particular determination of the real, but in set hierarchies for the production and validation of legitimate knowledge." The challenge to common sense, therefore, constitutes not just an act of epistemological resistance but also of political resistance: "Abductees acknowledge that, from the perspective of the dominant culture, their words are illogical, unreasonable, unscientific. Yet they insist, as a matter or right, truth, and survival, that these words be spoken. They speak, braving the incredulity they know they will encounter, because they experience it themselves." Speaking the truth to power: In the fi-nal analysis, it is the political utility of poststructuralism, regardless of the sheer inanity of the theory itself, that accounts for its adoption by the intellectual left. As Dean states: "Various Marxists, feminists, and multiculturalists have stressed the importance of knowledge gained at the margins; the importance of the standpoint of the oppressed as epistemologically superior to the falsely disembodied, disconnected view from nowhere. There are myriad perspectives on the world, each with its own legitimate claim to the truth." So, for example, if you're a multiculturalist, you can argue--against historical evidence--that Greek philosophy is derived from sub-Saharan Africa; or if you're a feminist, you can argue--against biological evidence--that gender is completely a social construct; or if you're a Marxist, you can argue--against experiential evidence --that socialism is compatible with individual rights. What could be more useful, if you can't make a coherent, rational case for what you believe, than a theory that undermines the notion of objective truth, that relativizes all knowledge? Perhaps, then, it was inevitable that poststructuralism and ufology find each other, since both sets of believers stake out logically invincible positions. As Dean herself points out, "From its early years in the cold war up through today, ufology has attributed the paucity of physical evidence of flying saucers to a vast cover-up, explaining that the nation's political, economic, and religious institutions would collapse if the alien truth were known." Thus, the fact that believers cannot adequately support what they believe is itself a kind of support; indeed, when someone writes a book dissecting and demolishing their scarce "evidence" (as the late Carl Sagan did in 1990's The Demon-Haunted World), this is only further proof that they are onto something big. Poststructuralists similarly stake out irrefutable positions. Critiques of the theory are dismissed as mere logical objections--poststructuralism, its advocates contend, calls into question the dominant status of logic in intellectual exchange and thus stands above such quibbling. Several of its best known practitioners even reject the principle of noncontradiction (x and not-x cannot simultaneously be predicated of y) as an arbiter of truth or falsehood. Apparently so does Dean. Hence, she can blithely assert on page 173: "Confronted with dissolution, insecurity, surveillance, and paranoia, the best response could well be not to respond at all, to wait and see what happens. The problem is that too much happens." But then, on the very next page, without a trace of self-consciousness, she can also assert: "The audience identifies with the characters on Seinfeld because nothing ever happens to any of us." Too much happens. Nothing ever happens. Such is the universe through the poststructural looking glass. Lack of evidence is evidence of suppressed evidence. Logical contradiction is no bar to academic argument. If there are indeed aliens among us, they must be shaking their heads. Mark Goldblatt has written for The New York Times, The New York Post, and Newsday. He teaches developmental courses and the history of ideas at the Fashion Institute of Technology of the State University of New York. =A9
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 21 Re: Phil Klass and The Trent Photos From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@aol.com> Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 02:28:45 EST Fwd Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 09:33:55 -0500 Subject: Re: Phil Klass and The Trent Photos From: DRudiak@aol.com Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 14:18:19 EST Fwd Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 10:53:58 -0500 Subject: Re: Phil Klass and The Trent Photos >Paul Trent died in 1996 and his wife in early 1997. Several of >their children and Trent's brother still live in the area, >however. >In 1997 I visited the site where the photos were taken. Damn Gesundt's gripple! Paul Trent died in 1997 and Evelyn Trent in early 1998. She was interviewed in June 1997 by the McMinnville News-Register for a retrospective, but when I visited in April 1998 (not 1997), I was informed she had also died, I think in January. Sorry about the date mix-up. David Rudiak
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 21 Re: Max Burns From: AlienHype@aol.com Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 04:27:00 EST Fwd Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 10:25:16 -0500 Subject: Re: Max Burns >Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 11:26:25 -0500 >From: Andy Roberts <Brigantia@compuserve.com> >Subject: Max Burns >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Max Burns goes to great pains to evade the truth about his >current legal circumstances. Listers may feel this is not >relevant to ufological investigation. But if Max is openly lying >about his legal situation, what does that say about his >ufological investigations? >As to the nature of his 'crimes', that's immaterial, it's the >attempts to deceive ufologists which perturb me. So, for the, >ahem, record.... >Max is currently on the run. Fact. >As to the nature of his 'crimes', that's immaterial. Its only immaterial, because you cannot name one criminal conviction on my behalf..... Fact. What crimes are these Mr Roberts? Is this a kangaroo court? Have you ever heard the term 'innocent until proven guilty in a court of law'? Its the way we do things in the UK. Its called 'Presumption of innocence until proven guilty'. And that, like it or not, is the current legal position. I am not trying to deceive anybody. It is yourself who is attempting to deceive other ufologists with you wilful, wrong, statements regarding charges and my current legal position. A fact that, in the future, you will pay for in a court of law. I know that even you cannot come up with evidence to back up your wrongful allegations, regarding my current legal status. As they do not exist a fact you are fully aware of. Because it is a _fact_ that I have no convictions. If anyone wishes to telephone or fax my legal rep's assistant Diane Plummer, 01142 496 666 fax 01142 496 700, I will instruct her to confirm my current legal status.. to those interested. Just for the amusement of the of the readers of UpDates, I am not on my own in this. In the UK there are 6 million people who owe council tax to there various local goverment. whoohhhhh! Not that I think that just because I am one of 6 million people, that makes it right. However, as I have not been in a fiscal position to bring these payments up to date - I find myself in this position of having to go before the local magistrates court, regarding this 'Civil Matter' and the money that I owe to the local government. I am not "on the run". There _is_ a warrant out for my arrest, For a _"Civil Matter" & not as you previously reported when you wrongly claimed and stated that I am a _"criminal"_ and that the warrant is out for my arrest pertaining to a criminal matter. I will be bringing my arrears up to date in the near future. >He failed to appear in court to answer charges of huge Poll Tax >arrears. A warrant without bail has been issued for his arrest. >This warrant can be actioned by the police and will mean he will >be taken into custody (then most probably bailed again). Not just Council tax arrears but "huge" poll tax arrears.. (council tax) I hope so, as its only a civil matter. A fact which you have tried to smoke screen by, once again, reporting to the list regarding these charges as listed below.& >Max is also charged with extremely serious drug traffiking >offences. Possession with intent to supply of 1000 tablets of >amphetamine sulphate to be exact, Well, if you are going to split hairs its 963 tablets. If you really want to be exact as you so like to claim.. I have not been charged with drug trafficking.. The charge is 'intent to supply amphetamine sulphate' to be exact - with no mention of the word trafficking. Trafficking would be a completely separate charge - which I have not been charged with either. But, once again, you who claim to be reporting 'facts' cannot even get a few basic things correct. If readers of UpDates would care to note that the error is always on the side of 'make it sound as bad as you can'... Once again it is down to the investigation that Mr Roberts and Co. are so desperate to have me discredited for that they are concerned that my valid points in my investigation just might carry some weight with other ufologists. The problem is that you and your group have gone overboard for some reason to discredit myself and disprove my version of events into the case.... I have already received a number of posts from subscribers, proffering support. It is the eyes of the List that seem to be looking at the case and the actions of you and your group - more closely, as this constant attack is drawing attention to yourselves.. You are so desperate, you felt the need to not only lie about the fact that I am a criminal ... and have no criminal convictions. You accuse me of: >The depths to which he is involved in illegal activities. Once again you are massaging the picture to paint a bad picture of myself... >Among other charges. What are these other charges? Let me answer there are none... >He is due to appear on these charges at Sheffield Crown Court >on May 17th. As yet he has not been found guilty. But however >he portrays himself he is not whiter than white, and seeks to >cover up the depths to which he is involved in illegal >activities. Mr Roberts reported this new court date a full 48hrs before my defence team managed to inform me about it. And you are not actively collecting intelligence on me? You are the only person covering anything up or you would have not felt the need to lie about my current legal status regarding the fact that I am a man with no legal convictions. Fact. I am not involved in any illegal activities. You will also have your day in court. You had better bring your cheque book, as your allegations that: 1. I am a criminal, are unfounded and fabricated by you. 2. "seeks to cover up the depths to which he is involved in illegal activities." Are also untrue, and you know this. If my trial on May 17th actually commences, as it has been cancelled on a number of occasions, and has dragged on for 17 months, my Barrister will open my defence with "My client is a man of no previous criminal convictions." Is he lying too, something which he could get struck off for? I don't think so. Mr Roberts wrote: >Therefore I think it reasonable to be suspicious about the >alleged 'facts' of any UFO investigation in which he is involved >and for which he can produce no evidence. Therefore I think it reasonable to be suspicious about the motivation and agendas of a group of people who would misreport facts about my personal life in an effort to discredit myself and cast doubt upon my investigation into the Sheffield case. May I also add that Mr Roberts has myself at a legal disadvantage, as although I would like to comment further on the charges against myself - to which I have pleaded _Not_Guilty - due to the laws of prejudice and subjudisy I cannot comment on the evidence or lack of evidence as the case may be coming trial. I may also add that due to the future serving of legal papers in respect of the libel action I am about to commence against Mr Andy Roberts, I cannot reply to any more posts from him regarding anything of a personal nature... I also ask that EBK, now finish with any postings other than the full apology, from Mr Andy Roberts or others regarding this matter, as I feel it prudent that I should not respond any further than I already have to the wrongful libellous allegations from Mr Andy Roberts I demand that Mr Andy Roberts makes a full apology via this list, before the 25th February 1999, and that he withdraw the allegation that I am a criminal. Without prejudice or malice. Or that he supplies his home address, so that the correct legal documentation may be served. The clock is ticking Mr Roberts. I hope that you do not withdraw, as I know that I am in the right, and as they say in libel-land..... See you in court. Max Burns Innocent until proven guilty.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 21 Fighting off Energy Sucking Entities From: Joe Polanik <jpolanik@mindspring.com> Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 12:47:40 -0500 (EST) Fwd Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 10:37:07 -0500 Subject: Fighting off Energy Sucking Entities Below is an extract from Robert Perterson's book, 'Out of Body Experiences: How To Have Them And What To Expect'. The extract is a description of an OBE during which he encountered two entities he took to be vampires. He fought off one, but the other overpowered him ... and began sucking his blood! He woke up from this nightmare (or had a false awakening), rehearsed his dream battle (spontaneous _mild_?) and was hurled into an Out of Body Experience. This is a very interesting report, not only because of the positive outcome, but because the also because it shows that some aspects of the experience incorporate perceptions despite an apparently inert physical body and senses. Bob Peterson is a long time Out of Body Experiencer and has written a detailed comparison between the Out of Body Experience [OBE] and the Alien Abduction Experience [AAE], the text of which is available at Peterson's website: http://www.winternet.com/~rsp/ Enjoy, Joe Polanik [Begin Extract]: I was dreaming that I was camping along a riverside with a group of people. We thought we were safe, but suddenly two vampires --- one male, one female --- attacked our camp, and the dream turned into a nightmare. I fought the female vampire for a long time and I finally killed her. I was exhausted. Much to my horror, the other vampire came running and attacked me. We fought long and hard, but I was weak from my fight with the female vampire. He finally overpowered me and started sucking the blood out of me. I became weaker and realized I couldn't fight anymore. I was dying in my dream! I actually believed I was dying. Then I woke up startled, and opened my eyes. I immediately saw a hand grasping for my throat! I was fully conscious, inside my body, and it seemed as if someone was trying to kill me! I reenacted the dream-battle in my head for a few seconds, thought I was dying again, and I was ejected out of my body like bread out of a toaster! I sat up and turned to look who was attacking my poor body. the hand that was reaching for my throat was my own! It was loosely draped over the pillow! I sighed a breath of relief. I wasn't in danger after all. I had literally been scared to death! Although out of my body, I was glued to it. But this time, instead of trying to free myself, I tried to control my astral self with my mind. I thought hard, "I want to go to [my brother's house]" but nothing happened. Instead, I heard my physical voice (kind of muffled) saying it in the background! I looked at my astral hands. They were gently waving back and forth. ... I was drawn closer to the physical body and I dropped inside and immediately opened my eyes (no blackout), I saw my hand draped over the pillow, as if it was reaching for my throat, exactly as I saw it during the OBE. [End Extract] {*}.{*}:{*}^{*}:{*}.{*}.{*}:{*}^{*}:{*}.{*} Joseph Polanik, jpolanik@mindspring.com Trionic Research Institute, http://www.trionica.com
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 21 Re: KAPRA - Ontario, Canada From: John Hayes <jhayes@cableinet.co.uk> Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 12:18:45 +0000 Fwd Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 10:39:53 -0500 Subject: Re: KAPRA - Ontario, Canada >Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 21:51:58 -0600 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >From: Sean Liddle <gortrix@kos.net> >Subject: KAPRA - Ontario, Canada Hello Sean, In your recent mesage to UFO UpDates you stated that QAPRA has folded. Unfortunately I still have an entry on the UFOINFO web site and I wondered if you could send me some information on the new group? If you do not want to do this let me know and I will delete the old entry completely . Best wishes, John Hayes jhayes@cableinet.co.uk webmaster@ufoinfo.com UFOINFO:- http://ufoinfo.com UFO Roundup:- http://ufoinfo.com/roundup/ Filer's Files:- http://ufoinfo.com/filer/ UFOICQ Australian UFO Reports and Experiences:- http://ufoinfo.com/ufoicq/
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 21 Blue Bolide in NH From: Greg St. Pierre <StrmNut@aol.com> Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 10:40:45 EST Fwd Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 10:53:23 -0500 Subject: Blue Bolide in NH Dear List, On Monday, February 15th at 7:00pm, my father in-law, Rick, saw a bright blue fireball decending to the northwest, which would put it over Manchester or Concord. "It left a long blue tail behind it, and was visible for about two seconds," he said. He did not see the end of the object's trajectory as it went behind some trees. Seems as though there's been a lot of this type of activity in the last year. Is the average number of fireballs increasing, or are more people looking up these days? Greg St. Pierre
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 21 BWW Media Alert 19990221 From: BufoCalvin@aol.com Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 11:37:19 EST Fwd Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 14:02:45 -0500 Subject: BWW Media Alert 19990221 Bufo Calvin P O Box 5231, Walnut Creek, CA 94596 Internet: BufoCalvin@aol.com Website: <A HREF<A HREFALL RIGHTS RESERVED (permission is granted to= reproduce or redistribute this edition of Bufo's WEIRD WORLD provided that= attribution is made to http://members.aol.com/bufocalvin. It is good= etiquette to check with strangers before you e-mail them something. If you= forward this, please make sure it is clear that you are forwarding it). February 21, 1999 Once again, I have to be a bit brief. I'm writing a computer class on= Visual Basic for Applications for Excel 97 this weekend, and I'm teaching it Monday through Wednesday this week! Besides, I coach an Odyssey of the Mind team, and we are meeting pretty much all day today (the local tournament is next week). But enough about me ;). CONFIRMATION (on NBC last week) was a landmark production. Oh, it didn't= come across as science, or serious news. It still had a narrator (Robert Davi)= who spoke as if the ideas got any heavier, he=85couldn't=85stand=85up. It was= very heavy on "dramatic recreations", but still managed to include a lot of the original material. I would say that the skeptics were treated more even- handedly than believers usually are by "the other side". Phil Klass and Joe Nickell both got air-time, although the skeptics didn't get "the last word". That's an easy way to spot the leanings of the Producers of a show (or what they want you to think they believe): who, besides the host, gets to speak last? Commonly on talk shows, they will have believers on, and then bring a skeptic out for a "last word" refutation. The show is not yet available through Amazon (and therefore, not through Bufo's WEIRD WORLD Books), but you can get it directly from NBC. They= promise additional footage, and a t-shirt, for $24.95 + S&H. The number is 1-800-NBC-2634 (I think), or http://www.nbc.com. One of the most interesting elements of the show was the 1993 Ohio case= where more than ten police officers communicated with dispatch about a UFO (or three, in at least one case) that they were pursuing. Dreamland= Interactive, Producers of the incredible CD-ROM, THE UFO ANTHOLOGY ( <A HREF=3D"http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0966965108/bufosweirdworld= "> The UFO Anthology Volume One (CD-ROM)</A>), is releasing those audio tapes commercially. Again, the 911 tapes are not yet available through me, but= when they are, I'll let you know (and get them on the website). They can be ordered directly from Dreamland now at <A= HREF=3D"http://www.4dreamland.com/cgi- local/shop.pl/page=3Dindex.html">http://www.4dreamland.com/cgi- local/shop.pl/page=3Dindex.html</A>. On to the listings: Times are generally Pacific. TELEVISION A&E Sunday, February 28, 7:00 PM, ANCIENT MYSTERIES WITH LEONARD NIMOY: SEARCH= FOR THE ABOMINABLE SNOWMAN THE DISCOVERY CHANNEL Thursday, February 25, 9:00 PM, AMERICA'S HAUNTED HOUSES Thursday, February 25, 10:00 PM, INTO THE UNKNOWN: SUPERNATURAL BEINGS Friday, February 26, 12:00 AM, AMERICA'S HAUNTED HOUSES Friday, February 26, 1:00 AM, INTO THE UNKNOWN: SUPERNATURAL BEINGS Friday, February 26, 8:00 PM, OZ ENCOUNTERS: UFOS IN AUSTRALIA (I've= suggested this one before...nice little documentary with first person stuff and= minimal theorizing) Friday, February 26, 11:00 PM, OZ ENCOUNTERS: UFOS IN AUSTRALIA (I've suggested this one before...nice little documentary with first-person stuff and minimal theorizing) Saturday, February 27, 5:00 PM, AMERICA'S HAUNTED HOUSES Next Thursday, March 4, 10:00 PM, INTO THE UNKNOWN: MONSTERS OF THE DEEP Next Friday, March 5, 1:00 AM, INTO THE UNKNOWN: MONSTERS OF THE DEEP THE HISTORY CHANNEL Sunday, February 21, 7:00 PM, HISTORY UNDERCOVER: ROSWELL, AN ALIEN= OBSESSION Sunday, February 21, 11:00 PM, HISTORY UNDERCOVER: ROSWELL, AN ALIEN= OBSESSION Wednesday, February 24, 11:00 AM, THE 20TH CENTURY WITH MIKE WALLACE: ARE WE ALONE? (UFOs) Monday, February 22, 5:00 PM, ALIEN HUNTERS (unclear if this is appropriate= to this list or SETI) Monday, February 22, 9:00 PM, ALIEN HUNTERS (unclear if this is appropriate= to this list or SETI) Tuesday, February 22, 1:00 AM, ALIEN HUNTERS (unclear if this is appropriate to this list or SETI) Wednesday, February 24, 4:00 PM, THE 20TH CENTURY WITH MIKE WALLACE: ARE WE ALONE? (UFOs) Saturday, February 27, 3:00 PM, HISTORY UNDERCOVER: ROSWELL, AN ALIEN OBSESSION Next Monday, March 1, 5:00 PM, THE MYSTERIES OF AMELIA EARHART (alien abduction is suggested) Next Monday, March 1, 9:00 PM, THE MYSTERIES OF AMEILA EARHART (alien abduction is suggested) Next Tuesday, March 2, 1:00 AM, THE MYSTERIES OF AMELIA EARHART (alien abduction is suggested) THE LEARNING CHANNEL Next Sunday, February 28, 8:00 PM, UFOS UNCOVERED: OUT OF THIS WORLD= (includes UFOs in space) Next Sunday, February 28, 9:00 PM, UFOS UNCOVERED: DARK SECRETS (includes NORAD and Area 51) Next Sunday, February 28, 10:00 PM, UFOS UNCOVERED: ARE ALIENS HERE?= (includes crashes) Next Sunday, February 28, 11:00 PM, UFOS UNCOVERED: OUT OF THIS WORLD (includes UFOs in space) Next Monday, March 1, 12:00 AM, UFOS UNCOVERED: DARK SECRETS (includes NORAD and Area 51) Next Monday, March 1, 1:00 AM, UFOS UNCOVERED: ARE ALIENS HERE? (includes crashes) Next Monday, March 1, 7:00 PM, THE UNINVITED (includes Whitley Strieber) Next Tuesday, March 2, 1:00 AM, THE UNINVITED (includes Whitley Strieber) Next Tuesday, March 2, 9:00 PM, SEARCHING FOR UFOS Next Wednesday, March 3, 12:00 AM, SEARCHING FOR UFOS: Next Wednesday, March 3, 9:00 PM, UFOS: ABOVE AND BEYOND (hosted by James Doohan) Next Thursday, March 4, 12:00 AM, UFOS: ABOVE AND BEYOND (hosted by James Doohan) Next Thursday, March 4, 10:00 PM, UFOS AND OTHER CLOSE ENCOUNTERS Next Friday, March 5, 1:00 AM, UFOS AND OTHER CLOSE ENCOUNTERS Next Friday, March 5, 9:00 PM, UFOS: STORIES OF ABDUCTION THE SCIENCE CHANNEL The new schedule (since December 28, 1998) is weird programming for an hour each at 3:00 AM, 11:00 AM,and 7:00 PM. Alternating shows are: INTO THE= UNKNOWN and ARTHUR C. CLARKE'S MYSTERIOUS UNIVERSE. They also run a Roswell show now every other week (it's probably the same show every time) at 4:00 AM and= noon on Sundays. THE SCI-FI CHANNEL Tuesday, February 23, 11:00 AM, SIGHTINGS: EPISODE #4035 (UFO; ghost town= with ghosts; Hale-Bopp comet) Wednesday, February 24, 11:00 AM, SIGHTINGS: EPISODE #4036 (UFOs; angels; haunted highway; alien autopsy) Thursday, February 25, 11:00 AM, SIGHTINGS: EPISODE #4037 (Colorado= haunting; unidentified submarine object) Friday, February 26, 11:00 AM, SIGHTINGS :EPISODE #4038 (D.C. UFOs; Whitley Strieber; exorcism in Japan) SYNDICATED THE ROSEANNE SHOW, Monday, February 22: aliens THE ROSEANNE SHOW: Thursday, February 25: psychic and author James Van= Praagh ___________________________ ___________________________ This is Bufo saying, "If =EErything____________________________ You can stop receiving this from me just by asking (note: it is commonly redistributed, and I can't control you getting it from those sources) by e-mail at BufoCalvin@aol.com. You can also subscribe or unsubscribe to Bufo's WEIRD WORLD Media Alert the same way. Also, please let me know if there is something in the media you think I should cover. Deadline is= Tuesday, the week before.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 21 Filer's Files #7-1999 From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 16:56:44 -0500 Fwd Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 16:56:44 -0500 Subject: Filer's Files #7-1999 Source: http://ufoinfo.com/filer/1999/ff_9907.html FILER'S FILES Filer's Files #7-1999 MUFON Skywatch Investigations George A. Filer: MUFON Eastern Director, Majorstar@aol.com (609) 654-0020 February 18, 1999, 1998 NBC UFO TELEVISION SHOW "CONFIRMATION" A SUCCESS "Confirmation: The Hard Evidence of Aliens Among Us?" was aired on NBC television February 17, 1999. I feel this was an excellent presentation, and one of the best UFO specials ever. I would like to congratulate those who participated. I think Ufology won the match over the debunking scientists about three to one. I particularly enjoyed the Brookfield Township, Ohio Police Department's willingness to state frankly what they saw. Kenny Young did a great job in his investigation of the case a came across as credible and confident. The testimony of the police officers and actual 911 recordings and dispatcher's statements made this case entirely convincing and credible. The police claimed they witnessed three UFOs, one even caused the police cruisers engine to stop. When UFO departed the engine restarted itself. The astronomer claimed it was scintillation, twinkling of stars and a fireball since they can be brighter than the moon. It was just a coincidence the police car's engine stopped with the UFO overhead. Scientists have rejected the power of observation by others for centuries. This is what delayed for so long the `scientific' discovery of meteors, giant squid, gorillas, and many other wild and wonderful facts of this world. Even though UFOs are unlikely they do happen. Scientific rationalization is not always correct. I think NBC and Whitley Strieber did a masterful job of pointing this out to the viewer. Joe Firmage the former CEO of US Web placed a full page advertisement in the February 19, USA Today Newspaper using famous quotes of world leaders. This is well done ad and indicates to many that UFOs are a serious business. With a tenth of the money for the cost of the ad, we could follow up our very promising leads. However, this kind of powerful advertising I predict will open some very important doors. Thanks to Joe Firmage for his vision and sincerity A story from Europe sheds light on the real UFO situation. George Keleti, the Minister of Defense in Hungary, in an article by Attila Lenart entitled "Ask a Question to the Minister of Defense: George Keleti was asked, "Are You Afraid of a UFO Invasion?" He answered: "Around Szolnok many UFO reports have been received from the Ministry of Defense, which obviously and logically means that they [UFOs] know very well where they have to land and what they have to do. It is remarkable indeed that the Hungarian newspapers, in general newspapers everywhere, reject the reports of the authorities." Nepszava, Budapest, 8/18/94. NEW YORK Several local MUFON members, including State Section Director for the county, Richard Sitts, visited the Saratoga Lake area on Saturday, February 13, 1999. The area has had a high number of UFO's reported since last summer. They were there to provide possible confirmation of anomalous activity. They in fact observed an unusual display. In Richard's words: " The sighting was silent to us across the lake. It appeared very similar to what we saw on Chris' tape. The number of lights varied from 1 to 5. Color varied from amber to white. Did not appear to be airplanes. Wish we'd had a camera! What we had there was an informal ride to the lake without any planning. Just a spontaneous event for us. We'll go back. "The film Dick refers to is a nine minute segment captured by local investigator Chris O'Leary. It shows first one, then two brilliant objects that appear to hover over the lake with the brilliant light reflected in the water. Each object then leaves in an opposite direction. The second object to leave goes down to the end of the lake where ducks are heard apparently reacting to the object. That object then continues on past the lake and is observed moving along the contour of the hill beyond the lake, illuminating the tree line. A copy of the film has been forwarded to a MUFON video analyst. Thanks to Larry Clark. http://www.nymufon.org & Richard Sitts: RASitts@aol. NEW JERSEY WANAQUE RESERVOIR-On February 9, 199, my friend Ryan and I visited the reservoir to look for UFOs. We saw two objects over the hill on the horizon. One was pulsating from a bronze light color to red and at one point increased in intensity. They sat still as we watched and left. That's all that happened. We only stayed for ten minutes because it was so very cold outside, we'll return when its warmer. Thanks to Mike. PENNSYLVANIA PHILADELPHIA -- Mark writes that on Friday, February 5, 1999, between 6:30 and 7:00 PM, my family and I observed a very unusual light in the evening sky in Telford. That's about 30 miles NNW of Philadelphia. It was about 30 degrees above the southeast horizon. We observed it through binoculars and a small telescope. It was a very bright sparkling object, which rapidly flashed in all colors. It was smaller than either Jupiter or Venus, but noticeably brighter than either which were both observable in the southwest last evening. My telescope is powerful enough to show the disc of Jupiter, with the cloud bands and moons clearly visible. When I looked at this object, all that was visible was a bright sparkling point of light shooting off colored sparks or spikes. There were also lots of planes around to compare it to, but there was no resemblance. Mark Isganitis isganim@enter.net MERCER COUNTY -- Stan Gordon reports there were odd early morning sky glows on January 18, 1999, about 6:20 AM in the direction of Sheakleyville, PA. Witnesses saw the entire northern horizon illuminated with a fiery red color. The glow appeared to pulsate from brighter to dimmer, giving the observers the impression that there was a large forest fire in that area. The glow was right on the horizon, no color was visible in the upper part of the sky. I speculated that what they might have see could have been the Northern lights, since they have been seen in the past. Normally when they are seen however, we generally hear more widespread reports. I discussed this matter with a meteorologist acquaintance of mine, and he also thought that this was a possible explanation. The rising sun could have illuminated some clouds causing the reddish appearance. The Northern Lights appear very different. TURTLE CREEK -- The second report occurred at 1:54 A.M. on the morning of February 8, 1999, a suburb of Pittsburgh. He was looking southeast, and noticed the entire skyline lit up like a big fire. It was described as rosy- orange in color, and pulsated brighter and dimmer. He watched this for about 2 to 3 minutes, when suddenly in the center of the glow, a bright white diamond shaped light appeared for a second "like a flash bulb going off." Instantly after the flash, the sky went back to normal and the fiery glow had disappeared. Westmoreland County 911 emergency had no reports of fires, or other calls that would be associated with the report. Thanks to Stan Gordon UFO Hotline 724-838-7768. NORTH CAROLINA CHARLOTTE-- R. Terry Kimbrell reports that on February 10, 1999, a strange large V-shaped object w/ red lights bordering the craft was sighted by two brothers. The object was low, with no sound, and about 6" across at arm's length. It approached from the NW, moving SE across the sky with absolutely no sound. It was moving the whole time but was visible for about five minutes at 7:44 PM. It had red lights all around, one at the nose, about three at the lateral sides, and maybe two at the back. Richard A. Bellin said, there were six to eight lights around it. John my brother and I disagree on what we think it is. He believes it was alien and I think it was military in origin. Black is the only word we could both use to describe what we saw. It had no discernable shape, albeit what you could determine from the lights bordering the craft. Weather was clear and the stars were blocked out between the lights. The UFO was followed by 15 small jet aircraft that may have been military. I tried to contact Douglas Int. Airport tonight with no luck, just voice mail. The witnesses sounded very intelligent and sincere. There is a lake in the area that has many UFO reports. Thanks to T. Kimbrell and John Thompson and Richard A. Bellin grildchs@mindspring.com and ISUR. GEORGIA INVESTIGATION MOULTRIE - MUFON investigator John Thompson met with A 77 year old woman and her daughter who saw a UFO. She saw a short fat plane like object at only a 100 feet away. It had short stubby tail and a set of swept-back wings. Real size was that of a standard car. It was about 20 feet off the ground and she saw the UFO for 15 to 20 minutes. It made no sound and its only movement was a single headlight that came out of it in a straight level path. The bluish- gray or bluish-green light returned on the same path into the bottom of the craft. She says it did move and stopped several times and moved in and out of the craft. She didn't see the UFO come or leave. Spence Airfield is only a mile away and is still used. MUFON says most witness underestimate distance and overestimate how long they see a UFO; add another one, they usually overestimate the size of a UFO. That explains why nearly all close-encounters I have investigated -- but not always -- involve a craft of car or van size. Most possible explanation for the midnight to 1:00 AM, 4/10/97 was some kind of secret black-project craft operating out of Moody Air Force Base at Valdosta. Why the UFO was loitering silently over a cotton field for 45 minutes? A call to the Colquitte County Sheriffs Dept., (912) 896-7430, yielded some interesting information. The dispatcher said, at 11:00 PM in the summer of 1997, she saw six large stationary lights that changed from orange to red color. The lights formed a diamond shape, with one light at each corner and two in the middle of the diamond. They were low on the horizon but above the trees for "five minutes." The lights suddenly blinked out. The same night at 11:00 PM two other Colquitte County residents called to report lights. I have had reports of this before--but could not explain the diamond shape formed by the lights or why they changed in the fashion they did. These cases show something unusual was happening in Colquitte County in 1997. Thanks to John Thompson. OHIO DAYTON-Kenny Young reports at 11:15 PM on Sunday evening, February 14, 1999, a 'blue-colored object' with a whispy, luminous tail was seen by dozens of people who had reported the object as a UFO. At least five callers to the Sci-Zone radio program on WLW 700 A.M. (Cincinnati) described the oddity. One caller was a motorist from Dayton, Ohio who spotted the object to the northwest of his location. Another caller was from Milford, Ohio, and also reported the object to the North. The object, he said, accompanied a 'flash' before it disappeared behind a tree line. A later statement from WLW newscasters informed that the object was spotted in Ohio and West Virginia, and that the news station had received several calls. Cincinnati-area UFO researcher Charles Stuart was fortunate enough to actually spot the object while traveling in his car. He stated, "At around 11:15, Sunday night, February 14, 1999, I momentarily observed a bluish-white light descending vertically, disappearing behind a tree-line to the north. The appearance was similar to fireworks. The mystery light did not break up or dim before disappearing on the horizon as do most common meteors. In fact, it gave the impression that it had landed or impacted only a mile or so away. My best bet at this time is that the light was simply a large meteor or bolide passing through Earth's atmosphere at a high altitude. The light appeared to me to be the apparent size of a dime at arm's length. Thanks to Charles Stuart and Kenny Young: ufo@FUSE.NET CALIFORNIA San Francisco Examiner, February 12, 1999, Bright light in night sky over Bay Area and Northern Californians by surprise for the second time this month. People from the Bay Area to Sacramento reported seeing the light, which some said lasted as long as two minutes, at about 7:30 PM on Feb. 11. An astronomer said it was likely a fireball, or an extremely bright part of the Aurigids meteor shower. Thanks to Gerry @ Far Shores updates@globalserve.net CANADA TORONTO -- On Wednesday, February 3, 1999, at 10:15 AM, aircraft engineer Graveled Bowser spied a very large UFO crossing the sky. Bowser reported that he "saw a wingless, noiseless, three-hundred-foot-long, fifty-foot-high object with a 'nubbin' on top. It was over St. Clair Avenue West a little beyond Casa Loma." He estimated that the object was traveling at about 400 miles per hour. Elevation 15 degrees from horizontal. Altitude 10,000 feet, descending to 8 degrees from horizontal two miles to the north. It was very silvery, with pointy-rounded ends, no tail fin, and a black horizontal band around it. The sky was clear blue. "Having been in the aircraft industry for five years and having an eye and ear for engines, this object is unlike any craft I have observed heretofore," Bowser stated. The case is being investigated by Larry Fenwick of the Canadian UFO Research Network. Thanks to Bruce-Knapp and UFO Roundup Vol. 4, #7, 2/15/99 Editor: Joe Trainor. EDITORIAL: NOT ONLY IS ET OUT THERE, THE UNIVERSE IS CROWDED Astronomers are finding that the universe is apparently crowded with planets. Although only 18 planets have been found officially, new techniques have determined that almost 90% of the stars tested, wobble. The gravitational pull of planets orbiting the stars cause them to wobble. Early indications are that a large majority of the stars examined have planets and possibly solar systems similar to our own. There are billions of stars, more than the grains of sand at the sea shore, and these still early calculations indicate a large majority of stars have planets orbiting them. Those of you who believe in extraterrestrial visitation can now point to the fact that most space scientists are now convinced that E.T. is out there. They do not necessarily agree with the idea that E.T. is visiting us. Drakes equations need updating. The odds for E.T. visitation have now increased tremendously. Mathematics often leads scientific discovery and updated equations will likely predict they have visited us. Additionally, mankind has ancient sacred written records indicating these visits have taken place. Sumarian texts repeatedly claim we have been visited by the Anunnaki who came to Earth from Heaven. If you pick up the Koran, Torah or the Bible and read them not as religious spiritual books, but as history, the record is surprisingly clear. We have been visited repeatedly by angels, lords and human like alien creatures from space. They repeatedly state they are God's messengers. Zecharia Sitchin the author of Genesis Revisited and The Earth Chronicles told me that Genesis was a compilation of the true history of Earth. Modern science is just starting to catch up with the revelations of space travel, creation, and genetic engineering. The Bible has many scriptures that can be interpreted as UFOs. Seventy per cent of its predictions have come true, while many seem about to happen. Finis Jennings Dakes and his family spent 43 years literalizing the Bible instead of spiritualizing it. The Dakes Annotated Reference Bible states: In the beginning God created the Heaven and the Earth. Heaven is a material planet with temples, homes, cities, animals, trees, marriage, musical instruments, rain and fire. It is God's dwelling place with mansions, angels, and armies. It is located in the North part of the universe in relationship to Earth. NASA feels that in less than fifty years we will be able to make Mars habitable. It's called terraforming. It seems reasonable an advanced form of extraterrestrial intelligence could have visited our planet, perhaps on its way to exploring or even populating the whole galaxy? According to the scriptures fifty men from Earth have been taken to heaven and have lived there in natural bodies. Some notable ones include Enoch and Elijah. The alien visitors usually referred to as angels or lords, claim to be sent by God the supreme being. They declare God even created Homo Sapiens. Christianity claims God placed his son on Earth to instruct us in a better way to live. Some of Jesus' last words were, "In my Father's house there are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. I will come again!" John 14-2. The ancient Indian Vedic texts refer to vimanas or craft that match our descriptions of UFOs. Perhaps the visitors attempt to direct our beliefs so we can join other worlds in peace. There are 18 confirmed planets/brown dwarfs around main sequence stars: The top 29 candidates are listed: (1) HD 75289 update 1 Feb. 99. (2) 51 Peg update 2 Sep. 98. (3) HD 187123 update 17 Dec. 98. (4) upsilon And update 12 Dec. 96. (5) 55 Cnc update 27 Oct. 98. (6) rho CrB update 2 Sep. 98. (7) HD 217107 update 11 Jan. 99. (8) HD 210277 update 17 Dec. 98. (9) 16 Cyg B update 23 Nov. 98. (10) Gliese 876update 1 Sep. 98. (11) 47 Uma update 19 Dec. 96. (12) 14 Her update 17 Dec. 98. (13) HD 195019 update 11 Jan. 99. (14) tau Boo update 25 Nov. 97. (15) HD 168443 update 11 Jan. 99. (16) Gl 86 update 24 Nov. 98. (17) 70 Vir update 4 Dec. 98. (18) HD 114762 update 16 Dec. 98. 13 Jupiter mass limit (19) HD 110833 update 4 Nov. 96. (20) BD -04 782 update 4 Nov. 96. (21) HD 112758 update 4 Nov. 96. (22) HD 98230 update 4 Nov. 96. (23) HD 18445 update 4 Nov. 96. (24) HD 29587 update 4 Nov. 96. (25) HD 140913 update 4 Nov. 96. (26) HD 283750 update 6 Nov. 96. (27) HD 89707 update 4 Nov. 96. (28) HD 217580 update 4 Nov. 96. (29) Gl 229 update 11 Dec. 98. There are a large number of unconfirmed, doubtful or unpublished possible planet like objects. See http://wwwusr.obspm.fr/planets/catalog.html PLANETS LINE UP AND MAY CAUSE SOME UFO REPORTS On of February 23, Jupiter and Venus will be within a mere 12' of arc of each other appearing to merge. This is less than half the diameter of the full moon. Venus will be brighter. It technically is not a "conjunction," but, an "appulse." Thirty minutes after sunset, look to the west-southwest for Jupiter and Venus. Saturn will also be there farther to the south, and higher in the sky. Just rising will be Mercury. All four planets will line up like this \ slash mark and be joined by the crescent moon on the 18th. ROSWELL PHOTOGRAPHIC INTERPRETATION ANALYSIS CONTINUES The government claims what was found near Roswell, NM was a mundane Mogul balloon and a kite like device known as a RAWIN target reflector. Neil Morris a member of the Roswell Photo Interpreter Team (RPIT) continues his examination of Bond Johnson's photos taken of the balloon wreckage in General Ramey's office in 1947. "Close examination indicates something more complex is in the photos. Neil writes, "I continue the analysis of the alleged balloon around the area of the 'symbol' with interesting results." This shows the prominent symbol 'E,' but off to the left is a fainter '2' like symbol. The lines highlight the path of a "pipe" as structure spotted by fellow British RPIT member Ben Field. It seems to be attached to the edge of the material very much like a "hem" to a piece of cloth though it gives the impression of being far more ridged than the material. Similar "tube" like structures can be seen attached to the "foil sheets," on examination of damaged examples they show a "wire-frame" or pipe structure. There appears to strange structures, pointing out from the debris at an angle towards the camera. There is a small highly reflective sphere, the right hand one is much darker but still reflective. What to me looks very much as a badly burned and charred cable. The outer insulation layer of an electrical cable has been burned away and just left the very thin "conductor" intact. If you subject a piece of standard mains cable to a blow torch for a few minutes and you'll get the same sort of result. If the "balloon envelope" had been in close proximity to intense heat for the time it took to burn away the outer covering of the cable? Would we STILL sees this amount of INTACT envelope material? There appears to be "charred" cable-like item attached to the "pipe" structure that is attached to the edge of the "balloon envelope." Another puzzling discovery is that on the edge of foil peaking out from the "balloon material" there is a neat piece of decorative artwork! I see branching Plant Fronds or Comet Trails, and to the top left what could very well be taken as an abstract "fish"! There is increasing evidence within the photographs that the "balloon material" was subject to extreme heat. A neoprene coated nylon balloon would not survive intact as in the images. As well as the charred cables there is an image of a "metallic" bead adhering to the surface of the "material" that shows signs, in the form of a "trail," that it struck the material while molten. It then rolled a short way while still molten, leaving the trail before solidifying in its final position. Thanks to Neil Morris@Home. E- mail: Neil@adm1.ph.man.ac.uk Please visit the Website at: http://adm2.ph.man.ac.uk/ Crass commercials: GET THE BEST REALTORS, HELP UFO RESEARCH As a special aid to our readers, we can provide you with the best real estate experts in your area at no cost to you. Make sure you have a top notch agent, to buy or sell your home or real estate investments. We provide free relocation information and consulting services from the largest and most real estate firms. If you are planning to sell or buy a home and would like a top flight real estate agent give me a call at 609 654-0020 or e-mail me at Majorstar@aol.com. Please send your name, phone number, address, price range and location. MUFON JOURNAL For more detailed investigative reports subscribe by writing to 103 Oldtowne Road, Sequin, TX 78155-4099 or E-mail Mufon@aol.com. Filer's Files Copyright 1998 by George A. Filer, all rights reserved. Readers may post items from the Files on their Websites provided that they credit the newsletter and its editor
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 21 'Strange Days...Indeed' - Tonight: Jerome Clark & From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 18:50:58 -0500 Fwd Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 18:50:58 -0500 Subject: 'Strange Days...Indeed' - Tonight: Jerome Clark & From: UFO UpDates - Toronto On 'Strange Days... Indeed' tonight, Jerome Clark & John Velez. Join co-host Jonn Kares and I on 'Strange Days...Indeed' as we discuss NBC's 'Confirmation' with Jerome Clark & John Velez. The program starts at 11:00pm EST on 1010 CFRB AM - 50,000 watts 'Clear-Channel' 6070khz Shortwave and you can listen via your RealPlayer at: www.cfrb.com/cfrb.ram To call the program 'live', dial: On-Air 416-872-1010 1-800-561-CFRB [all over North America] *TALK [local mobiles] ebk
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 22 Re: Pope On A Rope From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net> Date: Sun, 21 Feb 99 11:59:46 PST Fwd Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 10:21:58 -0500 Subject: Re: Pope On A Rope >Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 13:33:15 -0500 >From: Andy Roberts <Brigantia@compuserve.com> >Subject: Re: Pope On A Rope >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net> >>Subject: Re: Pope On A Rope >>Date: Wed, 17 Feb 99 10:56:21 PST >>I can't believe that the point I am trying to make -- that >>Pope's being disingenuous about an experience he >>clearly did not want to own up to is an understandable >>and recognizable, if lamentable, human action -- >>continues to elude the ever censorious and self-righteous >>Mr. Roberts. Or maybe I can. I would bring up the old saw >>about how Americans and Brits are divided by a common >>language, except that I strongly suspect that our other >>British readers understand perfectly well what I'm saying here. >I've made my point. We should not trust anything produced by >any ufologists if they are proven liars. Hey, Cowboy, Just out of curiosity, since you failed to address any of the arguments I made, let's see if we can nail you down on just this one point. Since we are not to trust anybody who ever fibbed about anything, for any reason whatever -- the effect, of course, is to put Pope's disingenuousness on the same level as the lies of the most monstrous of prevaricators (an indication also of the level of moral and intellectual sophistication on which our mounted friend is operating) -- does that include Peter Rojcewicz? Is he, like Pope, a proven liar, not to be believed about anything, including remarks about weather conditions? Is it your desire that the University of Pennsylvania withdraw his Ph.D. certification? Should the Journal of American Folklore be notified so that it can apologize to its readers? Anxious minds want to know. Leaving Cheyenne, Jerry Clark
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 22 Re: Pope On A Rope From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net> Date: Sun, 21 Feb 99 12:06:50 PST Fwd Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 10:23:50 -0500 Subject: Re: Pope On A Rope >Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 22:40:14 -0500 >From: James Easton <pulsar@compuserve.com> >Subject: Re: Pope On A Rope >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net> >>Subject: Re: Pope On A Rope >>Date: Thu, 18 Feb 99 11:45:34 PST >Jerry wrote: >>I'm afraid our friend shows his hand here. We are informed, >>with precisely no evidence bearing one way or another on the >>question, that Nick Pope's (er, excuse me, "Popey's") experience >>was "imaginary." How do we know? >How do we know such a claimed 'experience' is imaginary... we >perhaps don't, however, there is rarely evidence to prove the >'negative', so is any self-proclaimed abductee and implantee >given the benefit of doubt? My word. Can what I have said been _that_ difficult to understand? Andy Roberts stated flatly, without producing evidence bearing on the question, that Nick Pope's experience was "imaginary". I said that until evidence either way is available, we can make no useful comments on its epistemological status, positive or negative. I don't even know where "benefit of doubt" remark comes from. It simply has nothing to do with my point, which -- except to Roberts and apparently to you -- should have been thoroughly uncontroversial. Jerry Clark
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 22 Roseanne ET/Abduction Show - Today From: Patricia Mason <pmason@ee.net> Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 12:56:14 -0500 Fwd Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 10:26:15 -0500 Subject: Roseanne ET/Abduction Show - Today The Roseanne ET/abduction show broadcast has been changed to Monday, Feb. 22. FYI, Pat
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 22 Re: 'Implants' - Confirmed? From: Jacquie Cosford <millpond@shaw.wave.ca> Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 13:16:45 -0500 Fwd Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 10:28:57 -0500 Subject: Re: 'Implants' - Confirmed? >Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 02:54:50 +1100 >To: <updates@globalserve.net> >From: Mike Farrell <mikefarr@midcoast.com.au> >Subject: 'Implants' - Confirmed? >>Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 23:15:22 -0500 >>From: Jacquie Cosford <millpond@shaw.wave.ca> >>Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 23:15:22 -0500 >>Subject: Re: 'Implants' - Confirmed? >>Lately, while falling asleep, I've been hearing a very loud >>buzzing sound. This sound is difficult to explain but it isn't >>"auditory" in nature as it is "heard" in my head and felt as a >>vibration. >>My question is this... has anyone else recently been >>experiencing this? >This is from my abductee friend (AC), who is sincere, but >protective of his identity. Though, I can say that "AC" gives >you some idea of how "it all" looks from down here! >(To those that wonder...honestly, it's not me! After 20 years of >UFO research, I should be so lucky as to finally "see one" of >those "little buggers"!;->) > >Mike Farrell >Project GUFONE >Australia > >--- > >>From Australian Abductee (AC): > >To the lady who has the buzzing sound, Yes, I do get intervals >when the audible "noise comes through. It is a humming sound >that lasts for about ten to twenty seconds. And also during my >youth and later into adulthood, vibrations at the onset of sleep >would also happen. Literally my bed would start to shake and >vibrate until I was completely awake. The night of my abduction, >I was awoken by this very phenomenon, and then was instantly >paraylized, and then woke up the next morning with a very irate >wife wondering "where on earth" I had been for the past several >hours whilst she looked for me. > >Also To the lady's inquiry, does she have the "Blue lights" >that are associated with the "Buzzing Sounds"? > >Regards, AC >---------- Hello Mike Thank you for your response to my inquiry. As to the question about "blue lights", I have not experienced anything of that nature, and in fact, I doubt very much if I am an abductee. The UFO phenomena has been one of my avid interests for many years, but as my father puts it "an unnatural obsession"? Needless to say I don't discuss it with him anymore! When I asked if anyone else had experienced a "buzzing sound" I was infering that perhaps the aliens are sending some sort of signal that raises our consciousness. This could be part of an evolutionary process. There is another more likely explanation for this buzzing phenomena, as someone else did point out, but wrote directly to my e-mail address, so I'll quote it here: >You are in a state with a bit more effort you can experience >an out of body experience. The buzzing noise means that you >are becoming aware of the transition period from wakefulness >to sleep/dreaming. Normally this passes too quickly and we >are not alert enough to catch it, so congratulations! Each experience seems to pose new questions yet still no answers! This is quoted from the original post... >Having had what could be called an interesting experience, I >have been "told" the reason for some implants. One of the >reasons is that during the early 90s I experienced several very >strong out of body experiences or Astral traveling. During >these events I visited several places that were beyond >imagination for beauty and complexity. On one of these trips I >viewed several other realities. >I have been told that implants are a blocking device to stop the >"New Generation" of the human species from using these new >powers and that if un-checked, the human beings would be able to >travel and communicate with literally thousands of races in the >universe. The first person suggested that the "buzzing" sound is an indictor of astral travel, while your source says that the aliens don't want us to develop these abilities. If this is true, then it would explain the buzzing sounds, because when they happen to me I instantly wake up. The problem with this subject (and I know it all sounds so farfetched) is how can we possibly acquire concrete proof? All we end up with is more questions, but no solid answers. regards Jacquie
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 22 [lunascan] MGS Update From: Francis Ridge <slk@evansville.net> Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 07:55:36 -0600 Fwd Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 10:42:40 -0500 Subject: [lunascan] MGS Update A little off-topic, but of interest to most of our readers, is the status of the MGS or Mars Global Surveyer. In case you didn't know it, they're getting ready to do the high-res mapping that was scheduled last year when they had problems with the antenna. This should be awesome. Fran Mars Global Surveyor Mars Global Surveyor has completed its two-week gravity calibration period and has successfully executed a 22 m/s bipropellant maneuver to transfer to the mapping orbit orbital parameters on Friday afternoon (Feb 19). Earlier in the week, solid state recorder 2A apparently shut off by itself. Power cycling restored power consumption and functional testing of the unit will be accomplished later today. Otherwise, the spacecraft is performing normally. The coming week will see a flight software update for mapping and a one-day operational test of the mapping (nadir panel toward the planet) orientation. Prepared by Mars Surveyor Operations Project Manager NASA Jet Propulsion Laboratory Support AND USE the research web sites by sending $1 a month to: Sites 618 Davis Drive Mt. Vernon, IN 47620 Main InterLink Site Directory: http://www.evansville.net/~slk/InterLink.html ---------------------------------------------------------------- THE LUNASCAN PROJECT (TLP): An Earth-Based Telescopic Imaging (EBTI) program using live and recorded CCD technology to document and record Lunar Transient Phenomena (TLPs). The Lunascan Project HomePage http://www.evansville.net/~slk/lshomepage.html The Project's Mission Statement : http://www.evansville.net/~slk/miss.html
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 22 Re: 'Confirmation' - New York Times Blinks From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com> Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 13:32:51 EST Fwd Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 10:47:23 -0500 Subject: Re: 'Confirmation' - New York Times Blinks > Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 11:52:50 -0800 (PST) >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >From: Jim Deardorff <deardorj@proaxis.com> >Subject: Re: 'Confirmation' - New York Times Blinks >>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com> >>Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 13:56:46 EST >>To: updates@globalserve.net >>Subject: Re: 'Confirmation' - New York Times Blinks >>Hmmm. Speaking hypothetically, what would your reaction have >>been to an anomolous object hovering, accelerating, carrying >>multiple lights (like a Christmas tree) and performing >>abnormally for all to see? Abnormally, defying the laws of >>physics and performaing in a most alien (to our technology) way! >>Silently! >>Let's say you were familiar with basic physics... with basic >>science. Let's say you were a professional at making >>observations, say, like a police officer... officers... >>If "we" had stuff like that in our repertoire of weaponry and >>aircraft, could it possibly be that we've been flying it for >>decades in total secret? Not using it against our enemies? And >>flying it in full view of citizens all over the world? But >>secretly, of course! What appelation would you use to attempt >>defining this "thing," in the light of the show's focus? A >>putty tat, maybe? Swamp gas? Gripple? Unidentified flying >>solid object defying all the known laws of physics. >>UFSODATKLOP! >One of us must be missing the other's point. Given your >hyothetical situation above, what would my reaction be? I think >I'd rush around to as many of these "all" who also witnessed the >event and try to get them to let me take down their names and >phone numbers. Then I'd report the sighting to the (US) National >UFO Reporting Center, and then perhaps write a letter to the >editor of my local newspaper about it. >>Have you ever seen an anomalous object? One that defies all >>manner of science and physics that we understand and know? If >>you've studied the phenom and eliminated everything possible >>except psychosis, what else may it be? If your answer is >>psychosis, you are hopeless. >Yes, precisely, I'd call it a UFO. I think you're lecturing to >the wrong person! Yes, I have seen a few UFOs, with at least two >of them being very anomalous. There's a link to them on my web >site at: >http://www.proaxis.com/~deardorj >Jim Deardorff Dear Deardorff (I just had to write that): It is a commonly known fact that I do my best work while not in control of my senses. You see, not only am I the Marketing Director for Gesundt's Freshly Mades, I am also the corporate taster. In this position (usually prone) I sometimes do not make myself entirely clear. When this happens, merely ignore me as do most of my relatives, including my mother-in-law, who I thought was deceased but instead, merely refuses to speak to, let alone with, me. In my post, I meant to make clear that I was speaking to 'them' when it appeared as if I referred to 'you'! To atone for this terrible crime, I have arranged for Gesundt's to send you a year's supply of our latest manifestation, 'Tipple-less Gripple!' Drink as much as you can and never fall down. I was testing this when I wrote my tome, to which you referred above. If you do not imbibe, you are missing one of the finest sensations life has to offer, one which provides the most fun you can have with your clothes on. Enjoy. Gesundt Hite
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 22 Paradigm Research Press Release - 2/17/99 From: Stephen Bassett <ParadigmRG@aol.com> Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 15:21:28 EST Fwd Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 10:59:31 -0500 Subject: Paradigm Research Press Release - 2/17/99 Paradigm Research Group February 17, 1999 Press Release Washington, DC -- Stephen Bassett, the only registered lobbyist in the United States representing extraterrestrial related phenomena research and activists organizations, will address the McClendon Study Group on Wednesday, February 24 at the National Press Club. The Press Club is located at 14th and F Streets, NW. The presentation will begin at 7:30 p.m. The press, public and legislative staff are invited. There is no charge. The McClendon Study Group has met every other Wednesday since 1989, and was begun by senior White House Correspondent Sarah McClendon to provide interested public and press in-depth background on important news stories. McClendon still leads the group with assistance from Study Group chairman, John Hurley. Past speakers include FBI Director William Sessions, DC Congresswoman Eleanor Holmes Norton, consumer advocate Ralph Nader, CNN staffers April Oliver and Jack Smith, David Levy of the National Security Council and many others in the news. The topic will be The Politics of UFOs: The Road to Disclosure. Mr. Bassett will address the ongoing collapse of the cover-up by elements of the U.S. government of closely held knowledge of an extraterrestrial presence in our world. Other aspects of the larger story, some of which to be soon aired on NBC's February 17 special, "Confirmation," will also be discussed Stephen Bassett is the founder of the Paradigm Research Group, which was established in early 1996 to provide professional services to researchers and political activists throughout the world in the field of extraterrestrial related phenomena. He has spoken nationally on the politics of UFOs and disclosure and is the author of The Paradigm Clock, the official website of the Paradigm Research Group (www.paradigmclock.com). The "Paradigm Clock" is modeled after the "Doomsday Clock" published by the Bulletin of Atomic Scientists, and tracks the proximity to formal disclosure by the U. S. government of the confirmed presence of extraterrestrial, non-human intelligence. His work has been referenced in the Washington Post, New York Times, Legal Times, Montgomery Gazette, National Journal and O'Dwyer's Washington Report among others. He has been a guest on numerous national radio programs and plans to begin a nationwide talk radio tour in March of this year. To contact Paradigm Research Group: phone: 301-564-1820 fax: 301-564-4066 email: ParadigmRG@aol.com Paradigm Clock Website: www.paradigmclock.com
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 22 UFOs Over Heathrow Airport, London From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@get2net.dk> Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 11:09:09 -0500 Fwd Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 11:09:09 -0500 Subject: UFOs Over Heathrow Airport, London :: Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 00:52:04 +0100 (MET) : : : : Subject: UFOs Over Heathrow Airport, London To: updates@globalserve.net Source: alt.ufo.reports Stig *** From: Ian Venn <ian.venn@btinternet.com> Newsgroups: alt.ufo.reports Subject: UFO's over Heathrow London Date: 21 Feb 1999 22:01:08 GMT I have sightings of two unusual stationary lights over Heathrow Airport, London, as I write - 22.00 Sunday 21st, February - anyone else confirm these? -- Ian Venn ian.venn@btinternet.com
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 22 Re: From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@get2net.dk> Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 01:33:44 +0100 (MET) Fwd Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 11:11:19 -0500 Subject: Re: Source: alt.alien.research Stig *** From: daydisk@webtv.net (Charles Stuart) Newsgroups: alt.alien.research Subject: Lonnie Zamora - Gary Wilcox- Coincidence?!!! Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 01:21:57 -0500 (EST) Most people who have more than just a passing interest in UFOs are familiar with the Zamora incident which was alleged to have occurred just outside of Socorro, NM on April 24, 1964. It is a highly esteemed case except for/ to the most hardcore debunkers, mostly because of the credibilty of officer Zamora and the fact that indentations were found in the extremely hard ground and some bushes were burned. J. Allen Hynek remarked, " ...I personally am willing today to accept his testimony as genuine.." Anyway, Zamora reported seeing two, small aliens standing beside a metallic, white, egg-shaped object minutes before it blasted off. Not too many people know, however, that earlier the same day, Gary T. Wilcox reported practically the same event on his farm near Tioga City, NY. He too claimed to have seen two small beings near a metallic, egg-shaped object in a field surrounded by woods. This case was given less credibilty at the time because of one key difference: Gary claimed to have talked to "his" two little aliens. There is no way that the two men could have known about the other's report unless they knew each other and there is absolutely no evidence that they did. If we rule out collusion, however, with what are we left? An extremely unlikely coincidence whether either or both reports was (were) true! --cgs
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 22 Commentary on Jerry Black's Challenge to Whitley From: Jorma Kosonen <unicab@laatikko.saunalahti.fi> Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 02:52:55 +0200 Fwd Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 11:14:28 -0500 Subject: Commentary on Jerry Black's Challenge to Whitley >From: Glenn Joyner <infohead@airmail.net> >Date: Sat, 02 Jan 1999 03:03:12 -0600 >Fwd Date: Sun, 03 Jan 1999 15:01:48 -0500 >Subject: Jerry Black's Challenge To Whitley Strieber Jorma Kosonen: Commentary on Jerry Black's Challenge to Whitley Strieber It is to be noted with some mirth and perhaps even jollity that at last, as more than ten years have passed since Communion by Whitley Strieber was published, investigations are made and full analysis given in the Mr.Jerry Blackway. I regard his review valid as well as a sharp and holistic insight on this issue. At first be it noted that I have several reasons for my commentary and support on Mr. Black. These will be shown below. Because of the fact that I am native Finnish, there is no possibility for me to fully get perceptions of a native American reader. Because my mother tongue is Finnish, it is very hard for me to evaluate most of the details being got by a native American, upon reading Strieber. However, I have the impression that my ability in understanding English makes it possible to evaluate English text with relatively small percentage of misunderstanding. After reading the Finnish version of Communion it is easy to a Finnish reader to step in the world opened by Strieber. Thereafter one must read English originals or Swedish, because of lack of Finnish translations. I have read both Communion (in Finnish) and Transformation and, in addition, some 25 % of Breakthrough. I have read most of Transformation in Swedish, too. It is my view that some of Mr. Strieber's readers may have spent partly sleepless nights upon reading his books. Extremities may well be in somnia or other symptoms. This point of view is of utmost importance when evaluating Mr. Strieber's text. Personally, it was about two years ago that I had some insomnia-type nights upon reading Communion and even had a pause on reading to get balanced. I even returned the book to our local library for one week to get rid of everything. Later on I have got the perception that this kind of response may be ascribed to Mr. Strieber's talented dramatization and reader's natural aptitude towards this type of subject matter. I also want to say that many readers may have got anguished for Strieber's books. I found myself delighted about Mr.Black's review. This is because I realized having been unconsciously disturbed at length by almost exactly the same items that Mr. Black is laying on the table. >In the front of his book, Transformation, I note the following >transcript: >Transformation is dedicated to those who have had the courage to >be named in this book as witnesses to my experience. Also, for me, the list of names in the beginning of Transformation supporting Mr.Strieber's story was left in the air after reading the book, exactly like Mr. Black noted. However, it came to my overall perception that Mr.Strieber was surrounded by complete lonesomeness in his matter; I wished he would have named at least one person being with him in a close encounter with the aliens, or at least when sighting the objects. But never. All the way he was alone. This was very disturbing for me. Mr.Black repeatedly refers at disturbing details in the books. I think it is not necessary to put all of them here again. Be it said,as before, that almost each of the details brought forward by him were disturbing for me at length, too. However, a detail of Mr. Black 's text (erroneously ?) reads : >publisher, only a few people knew this information. At that >point in time, Ed Conroy made mention to Mr. Strieber that, in >Glen Rock, Wisconsin, there had just been a report that hundreds >of people in the town had heard these knocks on their roofs, with I could not find Glen Rock, Wisconsin at my Road Atlas. Instead, there is Glenrock, Wyoming. In my edition of Breakthrough, Strieber writes about Glenrock, Wyoming. Finally, I maybe might add one more passage not given by Mr.Black. As he states there are several passages giving rise to ask if they are for writing-the-book-for-its-sake.I deeply agree with Mr.Black. Personally, I like to add this one: In Transformation, Strieber is presenting almost a list on some paranormal phenomena at systematical conditions. He alleges to have experienced levitat ion, going through wall as well as having given at least temporary clairvoyance. Although his text is not a mere list on these abilities, I had the impression that what took place was a kind of purposeful and condensed demonstration on paranormal phenomena. For me, this was extremely troublesome. I can not be lieve that Mr.Strieber would have stood all that without being unbalanced. No doubt he may have been already, but his demonstrative show was terrible and obviously artificial. Listing paranormal phenomena gives rise to readers' thoughts that most probably was not Mr.Strieber's purpose. As stated, this was extremely troublesome for me, and it matches perfectly with Mr. Black's criticism on Strieber's text. Undoubtedly, Whitley Strieber's work has been a notable event in the history of world ufo literature. His brilliant and talented skills are favoured by millions of readers. Personally, I would think that Mr.Strieber can be given price for making people think of possibility of extraterrestrial life. However, as reading his books may have been a bad disservice to many people, I want to point out my opinion that the writer maybe has merely used his talents and imagination with skills for dramatizing, beyond standard level. So you can be relaxed and, to my mind, have a good sleep. Jorma Kosonen unicab@saunalahti.fi
The UFO UpDates Archive Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 22 Down To Earth Magazine - UFO Update From: Tony Spurrier <TSpurrier@compuserve.com> Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 20:26:56 -0500 Fwd Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 15:16:48 -0500 Subject: Down To Earth Magazine - UFO Update >From: Roy Hale <roy.hale@virgin.net> >Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 15:47:41 -0000 >Fwd Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 07:33:10 -0500 >Subject: Down To Earth Magazine - UK Update >They are still cheaper than most other magazines, but are also >in line with current Ad prices. The quality of Down to Earth >magazine has increased four-fold of recent and our main drive is >to have the magazine full colour by the end of this year. >(Those receiving the latest issue (5) please dis-regard the old >Ad prices.) Roy I know you feel I knock your posts on here but these price increases do seem extreme. Many people in the UK will welcome a new magazine but before deciding to advertise at the new prices you should be telling everyone the distribution figures. In order to accept the cost effectiveness of spending some 200 to 300 hundred pounds you need to be assured distribution in the ten of thousands. What is the current distribution? >FULL PAGE AD (B&W): 200 pounds Previous price 12 pounds >2/3 PAGE: 150 pounds >1/2 PAGE: 125 pounds. Previous price 8 pounds >1/3 PAGE: 100 pounds >1/4 PAGE: 70 pounds Previous price 4 pounds >DISPLAY BOX: 30 pounds >OUTSIDE BACK COVER (COLOUR) 300 pounds >INSIDE FRONT COVER: (COLOUR) 300 pounds >INSIDE BACK COVER (COLOUR) 300 pounds
The UFO UpDates Archive Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 22 Re: RAMS & 'Silver Veil' From: Henny van der Pluijm <hvdp@worldonline.nl> Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 04:15:58 +0100 (MET) Fwd Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 19:27:12 -0500 Subject: Re: RAMS & 'Silver Veil' >Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 08:54:25 -0600 >Subject: Silver Veil Press Release: RAMSES Speaks >From: <webmaster@cdfnet.com> >To: UFO UpDates <updates@globalserve.net> >Press Release >We announce on our web site in the next few days Robert A. M. >Stephens' much awaited data on the Silver Veil. Last fall >Robert >appeared on a number of talk shows culminating with an abortive >interview on the Art Bell show. Stephens, a NASA contractor of >many years' experience, brought to light a number of new >concepts to a community which purports to seek the truth about >contact with extraterrestrials. >What we are bringing out in the next few days is exactly what >Robert said all along. We are presenting the first, if only, >look at the Silver Veil anywhere on the web. He talked about it. >Now we are ready to present it. The real details we are >providing, although of course sketchy due to the classified >nature of most of the projects involved, promise extrordinary >insight. Before Robert no one in the UFO community was >discussing Silver Veil. Now it and a number of other projects >such as X-60 and SoL (Speed of Light Technologies) are >surfacing. > Hello Ramses, This X-60 thing intrigues me. I have been interested in aerospace technology for almost 30 years and have followed the history and development of the X-planes. X60 seems to me a designation that is way out compared to the current projects under development that go up to X38. Also, it took over 50 years to go from X-1 to X-38. The X-1 flew in 1947, the X-29 first flew in 1984, the X33 and X37 are still under development. Just to name a few examples. And now suddenly there would be an X60? Where did the X40 until X59 go? Don't tell me they are all secret. Actually hardly any X-plane has been secret while it was under development. __________________________________________
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 22 STS-80 Story From: Bill Hamilton <skywatcher22@hotmail.com> Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 13:20:09 PST Fwd Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 19:53:53 -0500 Subject: STS-80 Story Story On The STS-80 Footage As I have remarked before, the story of how the STS-80 footage was made public started in Dec. 1996. On Dec. 1, 1996 my friend John Maxfield was viewing the NASA Select channel (22) in Sacaramento when he saw something anomalous appear on the screen. He popped in a cassette and started recording. A few days later he called me and sent me a copy. I showed this for the first time at the UFO Congress in Laughlin, NV in Jan. 1997. Subsequently, it was shown on Fox News (locally) in Phoenix, AZ. We sent a copy to Dr. Jack Kasher for analysis, but to this day never received an answer or analytical report. The footage was first posted on the Internet on Tom King's website, OVNI CHAPTERHOUSE (now called Skynet). After Tom posted this, Richard Hoagland caught wind of it and mentioned this and read my email postings on the Art Bell show. We also arranged to send a copy of this video to Hoagland (S-VHS format) to have it analyzed, and, to date, never received an answer. Since that time Hoagland has announced plans to sell this video. Sarcastically, I would like to say how wonderful the rapid response has been to video analysis. We did not want to make any definitive statements until we had the results of an analysis. However, I would like to say that the object that caught my immediate attention was the large round glowing object with a dark center that seems to pop up from below the cloud layer, moves slightly, then holds position as the shuttle moves on. This object then ascends to join two others, one of which blinks. If this is debris from the shuttle, then how does it appear to move beneath the clouds? McGaha of Tucson (CSICOP member) made a statement to Fox News that the shuttle was passing over the nightside of earth so that objects far from the shuttle could not be seen. This despite the low-light level camera. The object in question does not seem to be reflecting sunlight, moonlight, starlight, or any other light, but appears to be self-luminous as do the other objects. Since clouds illuminated by lightning and other self-luminous objects far away from the camera are visible, I do not see why these objects could not be some distance from the camera. McGaha concludes these objects are shuttle debris. What caused this shuttle debris to move in one direction, then another, then halt movement as the shuttle continues to move. No thrusters are firing at this point. I, for one, would like to see more analysis done on this footage, and have the results published. Sincerely, Bill Hamilton Executive Director Skywatch International, Inc.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 22 San Luis Valley Update From: Christopher O'Brien <tmv@pop.amigo.net> Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 21:19:11 -7 Fwd Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 19:44:49 -0500 Subject: San Luis Valley Update Dear Investigator/Researchers: After a numbing 8 weeks off-line dealing w/ a nasty cyber-virus and a nearly trashed computer, I am back on-line. First off, Enter The Valley (St. Martin's Paperbacks ISBN 0-312- 96835-3), the second of four books examining the San Luis Valley, has finally been published. If ETV is not available at your favorite bookstore, please let me know. Any comments and feedback will be warmly appreciated. Reports of unusual aerial activity in the greater San Luis Valley area have increased dramatically during the first two months of 1999. The following are several of the more compelling cases: Tue Jan 26, 1999 at 8:15 - 8:32 PM, La Veta, CO-Huerfano County/La Veta MOA CE1 UNDER INVESTIGATION (Perkins) PRELIMINARY REPORT "Seven witnesses" see a large craft hovering over golf course near the town of La Veta, CO in the center of the La Veta, Military Operations Area. Two witnesses claim they were between "1/8 and 1/4 mile" away from the "600 foot" craft which was described as "hovering" over small lake located on a golf course across the street from their store. First witness, a woman, had walked outside as she and her husband were closing up shop and was startled to see what she initially thought was "a 747 landing." Immediately she realized it wasn't moving. The unconventional-looking craft appeared to have wings and bright lights in the front. It was described as translucent- looking and was accompanied by a low humming sound. Initially structure was not visible. Then, after summoning her husband, they both observed "orange-colored portholes" appear on the side. Witnsseswatched as the object shot a probe-like beam downward toward the lake. Trees obscured their view of the lake surface, but they assumed the beam or tube was going down into the water. More details will be provided after further investigation. FRI Jan 22, 1999 between 10:00 and 10:30 PM 2 miles S of Costilla, NM turnoff MA1 (Paye/O'Brien) Two motorists traveling north on NM 522 in separate cars, 9 miles south of the CO/NM border, Taos County NM, claimed to have separate but simultaneous unusual experiences. Brad Sleep, a UNM college student was following his girlfriend, Sarah Fisher when he witnessed what appeared to be a large meteor descending straight down toward the ground. The object was white colored and had a short tail. After descending quickly for a couple of seconds, the object abruptly stopped, changed color to a reddish white and hovered in a stationary position for "45-60 seconds" at about "35,000 to 40,000' feet in altitude. He observed this directly in front of him to the north. He slowed his truck and Sarah, who didn't observe the aerial object, continued on. Sleep pulled over to the side of the highway, turned off his engine and climbed out of his pickup truck as the object began a series of 12 to 15 , 6 degree wide lateral figure-eights. Each figure eight tok approximately 3 seconds to complete. Then the object headed to the SE, directly overhead, toward Taos. The craft had a roar similar to a jet plane but sounded different. "There was a reverberating hum that was different." Sleep observed that a single object ". . . seemed to be responsible" for the event, noting "if it was one craft, it sure wasn't conventional." He also said the event "could have been some kind of exchange between two objects." Sarah, meanwhile claims that when she had proceeded "about a mile" up the road from the time Brad stopped, a strangly lit car went by that "was all lit up on the sides by light that wasn't supposed to be thre." As soon as the lit-up car had passed her, headed south, several small objects rained down on the upper part of the driver side windshield. She thought the two events were strange and after they had driven the remaining three miles to town Brad told her of his sighting and she related her experience. Brad didn't remember a car passing by him as he stood outside his car watching the object. Thur Feb 4, 1999, 9:30-10:00 PM San Antonio Mountain, Taos County NM KRZA transmitter goes down for five days Thur Feb 4, 1999, 9:30-10:00 PM between San Isabelle and N. Crestone Creek Saguache County AN1 (O'Brien) Two witnesses driving south on Highway 17 observe "a brilliant orb of white light" hovering around 200' off the ground to the east of them. At one point during the 35 to 40 second sighting one witness (a retired career Air Force officer) noted the object shot a beam of light at the ground "like it was looking for a place to set down." There are no roads in the area where the object was spotted. The following morning at 7:45 AM, the ex-Air Forcer observed a dark grey van with smoked windows and government plates headed into Crestone. He noticed that the van had "no other markings . . . which seemed odd." He instantly connected the van with the previous night's sighting. He felt ". . . they were looking for whatever we saw the night before." Fri Feb 5, 1999 Baca Grande Development, CO Saguache County I attempt to interview government scientists in grey van at a stop sign. They claim they were "with the National Weather Service" and decline to divulge why they were in the area. I counted 8 people in this particular van. They were dressed in dress shirts and slacks and looked like scientists. Another Crestone resident claims to have seen a second government van that morning, but it was "dark blue." Tue Feb 9, 1999 9:55 to 9:58 PM Northern/Middle San Luis Valley CO FB1 (O'Brien) Myself and another witness observe a fast moving unblinking dull- orange orb travel NW to SE over the SLV. Object seemed to be below 5,000' in altitude and was 2 to 3X the size of Venus (at setting). Covered the 100 mile distance in about 3 minutes. Sat Feb 13, 1999 at 3:05 PM SLV, north of Center, CO MA1 Saguache County (O'Brien) Two witnesses observe a erratically moving silver reflection that was visible three times--each time for several seconds. Object seemed to be below 2,000' in altitude and made sharp twisting turns. One witness described it as looking like "a fishing lure in the sky." The second witness was able to focus a pair of binoculars on the object and described it as being "kind of rectangular-looking, but with no wings." 12 to 15 minutes later, a flight of 4 fightrs buzzed the area headed north, the wrong way up the SLV, instead of down. The jets flew over the same area where the object had been seen. Sun Feb 21, 1999 at 10:15 AM Westcliffe, CO FB1 Custer County (O'Brien) Two witnesses (one of them a pilot) report two jet fighters, one in front of the other) flying W to E at 50,000' in altitude at between 1,000 and 1,500 mph. Pacing the the second jet was an object that seemed about 10,000' below the jets. This object was rounded and was reflecting a goldish color. The jets left contrails the third object did not. The pilot/witness was puzzled by how fast all three craft were traveling. "They were definitely flying faster than the speed of sound." These are several of the more compelling reports I have fielded these past two weeks. I am also investigating a claim by a local law enforcement officer that "the guys on graveyard were seeing weird meteor-like objects nightly for two weeks" (The first two weeks in January.) More on these events later . . . Christopher O'Brien CAUS/Skywatch tmv@amigo.net http://home.amigo.net/tmv
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 22 MILAB - New Book On Military & Alien Abductions From: Philip Mantle <el51@dial.pipex.com> Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 17:33:52 +0000 Fwd Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 19:52:35 -0500 Subject: MILAB - New Book On Military & Alien Abductions --- Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 15:22:15 +0100 (MET) From: Helmut F. Lammer <hfl@bimgs5.kfunigraz.ac.at> Subject: MILAB - New Book On Military & Alien Abductions To: scw@web.net Attached is some information about the first book which concentrates only on the evidence of covert military involvement in alien abductions! best regards Dr. Helmut Lammer P.S. I would be glad if you inform your friends and interested parties about the book. You can also post the cover, info etc. on your Web-side or mail it to your friends! --- Information concerning MILABS, the first book which documents in detail covert military involvement in the alleged alien abduction phenomenon. MILABS Military Mind Control and Alien Abduction by Dr. Helmut and Marion Lammer Foreword: Dr. Richard Sauder will be published via Illuminetpress in the USA during spring 1999 -- April/May 1999. For deteiled informations contact the publisher on his Web-side: http://www.illuminetpress.com =================================================================== Dr. Helmut Lammer / Marion Lammer MILABS Military Mind Control and Alien Abduction During the last years, more and more people who experienced alien abductions claimed that they were also harrassed by covert military agencies. Some of them, like Katharina Wilson, Leah Haley, Melinda Leslie, Dr. Karla Turner, etc. experienced traumatic flashbacks and recall kidnappings by unknown military personnel. Until now such cases were only reported in some books and journals of abductees, since most well known alien abduction researchers ignored these cases, although the know about them! MILABS will be the first book which documents in detail that there is amazing evidence that covert human military agencies are involved in the alien abduction mystery. The book reviews the former top secret US mind-control projects like ARTICHOKE, MKULTRA, etc., compares the experiences of mind-control victims and MILAB abductees -- alleged alien anductees who claim that they were also kidnapped, examined, interrogated, sometimes implanted with tiny foreign objects,...by human military personnel, men in white lab coats or men in bussiness suits. The book addresses the following topics: 1. Documented History of Secret Mind and Behaviour-Control Experiments 2. A Possible Purpose of MILABS 3. Activity of Dark Unmarked Helicopters in Connection with Alien Abductions 4. Alleged Kidnappings of Alien Abductees by Covert Military/Intelligence Personnel 5. Genetic Aspect of MILABS 6. Otherworldly Journeys and Military Underground Facilities 7. Creating an Imaginary Alien Abductee 8. Toward a Controlled Society: Terrestrial Implants and their Application to MILABS and Future Warfare 9. Military Interrogation Sessions with Alleged Alien Abductees 10. Guidelines for Future Research In point 7 and 8 you will also read about the development of biological process control weapons, virtual reality brain implants, etc. The book is well documented with references of official but not well known scientific and military papers, photos, former top secret government documents, x-rays where everybody can see implants, statements of professional therapists, researchers, hypnosis transcripts of people who were interrogated on secret military underground research facilities, etc. If you think you are quite familiar with the alien abduction phenomenon - Think again! After reading MILABS you will discover that there are much more sinister aspects involved!
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 22 Re: Pope On A Rope From: Andy Roberts <Brigantia@compuserve.com> Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 11:22:03 -0500 Fwd Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 19:58:14 -0500 Subject: Re: Pope On A Rope >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net> >Subject: Re: Pope On A Rope >Date: Sun, 21 Feb 99 11:59:46 PST >To: ufoupdates@globalserve.net >Hey, Cowboy, >Just out of curiosity, since you failed to address any of the >arguments I made, let's see if we can nail you down on just this >one point. My pleasure Jerome. >Since we are not to trust anybody who ever fibbed about >anything, for any reason whatever -- the effect, of course, is >to put Pope's disingenuousness on the same level as the lies of >the most monstrous of prevaricators (an indication also of the >level of moral and intellectual sophistication on which our >mounted friend is operating) -- does that include Peter >Rojcewicz? Is he, like Pope, a proven liar, not to be believed >about anything, including remarks about weather conditions? Is >it your desire that the University of Pennsylvania withdraw his >Ph.D. certification? Should the Journal of American Folklore be >notified so that it can apologize to its readers? Discounting your clodhopping way with sarcasm at the beginning of the preceding para., yes is the answer. At no time did I state that we shouldn't trust anyone who had lied about anything, as you are well aware. What I did say, and which seems to have had some difficulty sinking in with you, is that if and when people involved in any aspect of anomalous phenomena research or investigation issue lies into the arena which are subsequently discovered then we should not immediately trust anything they say until they have provided the required evidence. It doesn't matter whether it's Popey, Max Burns (though obviously more fun when it is) or Peter Rojcewicz. That must be about the fifth time I've made the same point in slightly different ways. I trust you have now worked it out and your anxious mind is at rest once more. Happy Trails
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 22 Re: On Jerry Black's Challenge to Strieber From: Keith Woodard <qwoodard@worldnet.att.net> Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 11:43:53 -0800 Fwd Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 20:09:04 -0500 Subject: Re: On Jerry Black's Challenge to Strieber >Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 02:52:55 +0200 >To: updates@globalserve.net >From: Jorma Kosonen <unicab@laatikko.saunalahti.fi> >Subject: Commentary on Jerry Black's Challenge to Whitley Strieber >>From: Glenn Joyner <infohead@airmail.net> >>Date: Sat, 02 Jan 1999 03:03:12 -0600 >>Fwd Date: Sun, 03 Jan 1999 15:01:48 -0500 >>Subject: Jerry Black's Challenge To Whitley Strieber <snip> >I regard his review valid as well as a sharp and holistic >insight on this issue. <snip> That reminds me. I never saw what I considered Black's best point addressed by anyone ********* Begin Black text *********** First of all, he claims, in his books, Communion and Transformation, to have been basically traumatized by these continual encounters with the Visitors at his isolated cabin in New York, during 1985 and 1986, especially. He describes, in dramatic detail, his being fearful to the point of tears, and frightened to the point of physiological shock, at these continual encounters with the Visitors during the numerous weekend trips that he took to the New York cabin. However, we are asked to believe that he regularly took his young son, Andrew, as well as his wife, Ann, with him on these weekend trips, knowing that the odds were very high that he was going to be confronted with more experiences with these terrifying Visitors. I find no logic in this course of action whatsoever. In fact, if these encounters are indeed real, I find it very disturbing that he would allow his young son, Andrew, to possibly be subjected to the vision of these terrifying beings on any given weekend that he took the boy along. If Andrew had been subjected to an encounter with the Visitors, the psychological trauma which he may have suffered could have required some very extensive psychiatric help for years. It is equally perplexing that he would subject his wife to the possibility of these horrifying encounters. So I found this to be completely out of what one would consider the normal actions of a loving father and husband, in subjecting his son and wife to such a scenario, weekend, after weekend, after weekend. ********* End Black text *********** Bruce Maccabee called Black a "skeptic," and perhaps by today's standards he is. But I can still remember a time when skeptics had reservations about some of the adventures of Travis Walton. Kind regards, Keith
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 22 Re: NBC-Video 'Confirmation' Available? From: Minna Laajala <hiekkape@saunalahti.fi> Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 23:04:04 +0200 Fwd Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 22:14:33 -0500 Subject: Re: NBC-Video 'Confirmation' Available? >Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 12:34:41 -0800 >From: Royce J. Myers III <rjm3@sprintmail.com> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: Re: NBC-Video 'Confirmation' Available? >>Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 09:00:44 -0500 >>From: Joachim Koch <AchimKoch@compuserve.com> >>Subject: NBC-Video 'Confirmation' Available? >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >>Yesterday I popped in the NBC website to look for additional >>information about the NBC special "Confirmation" because nobody >>here was aware of that tv special. >>I found out that they offer a video entitled 'Confirmation'. >>Could anyone please tell me if this is the same as what was >>broadcasted or at least contains the main segments! >Yes it is. The only difference is that it has 12 additional >minutes of footage and an interview with Art Bell. I was glad to >see that Whitley had enough sense not to include the Bell >segment, it was hard enough being credible with the Robert Stack >rip-off host they had to begin with. >--Royce J. Myers III Hey everybody on the list! I=B4m looking for two items: 1) The movie called 'Communion' 2) This NBC`s document called "Confirmation...." Can anyone of you help me with this? I know I=B4m not the only one in Finland looking for these items, but at least I could tell to some of them where to contact. (=3D aliens not included...) Greatfully thanking Minna L. hiekkape@saunalahti.fi
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 22 UFO ROUNDUP Volume 4, Number 8 From: Joseph Trainor <Masinaigan@aol.com> Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 19:47:04 +0000 Fwd Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 21:57:15 -0500 Subject: UFO ROUNDUP Volume 4, Number 8 UFO ROUNDUP Volume 4, Number 8 February 22, 1999 Editor: Joseph Trainor UFOs VIDEOTAPED IN THE SKIES OF PERU On Tuesday night, February 9, 1999, just before midnight, pescadores from the port of Pisco, 300 kilometers (180 miles) south of Lima, the capital of Peru, watched a large anomalous light emerge from the Pacific Ocean. The UFO, described by witnesses as a nave nodriza (Spanish for "supply ship" or mothership--J.T.) rose into the air, banked sharply to the right and flew away in an easterly direction, heading for the shore. The following evening, Wednesday, February 10, 1999, residents of Chorrillos, a suburb of Lima about 16 kilometers (10 miles) south of the capital, reported seeing luminous discs "flying at a low altitude." In Jesus Maria, another Lima suburb, residents poured into the plaza to watch the overflight. One man videotaped it with his camera. Within the hour, another squadron of luminous UFOs flew over the seaport city of Callao, 13 kilometers (8 miles) west of Lima. By now, the word had spread, and a crowd of about 2,000 people witnessed the overflight of Callao. "Neighbors in the zone went outside of their homes in the hope of seeing the OVNIs (Spanish acronym for UFOs) again." At 11 p.m. that evening, Canal 5 (Channel 5) Television Panamericana stunned all two million residents of Lima with a special 40-minute broadcast on the UFO flap. The show aired home video footage of the objects flying over Jesus Maria and Callao. Canal 2 in Lima also aired the UFO videos. In the city of Ica, 400 kilometers (240 miles) south of Lima and 100 kilometers (60 miles) south of Pisco, residents saw two luminous UFOs flying eastward towards the Andes. On Thursday, February 11, people in the cafes around Pisco's central plaza were talking nonstop about the second UFO display the previous night. Rumors spread about the presence of an undersea base a dozen kilometers offshore. Some said it was an alien base; others claimed that it was "an OTAN (Spanish acronym for NATO) secret base." According to UFO Roundup correspondent Pilar Valencia, Lima's "tabloid press went wild on Days 1 and 2 of the flap," printing the Pisco undersea base story and speculating that the UFOs were in Peru to observe "the end of the world." Friday, February 12, 1999, saw UFO reports coming from the desert northeast of Jorge Chavez International Airport, 16 kilometers (10 miles) north of Lima In Lince, a Lima suburb 5 kilometers (3 miles) south of the Plaza de San Martin, residents rushed into the Avenida Garcilaso de la Vega to watch the UFOs pass overhead. (Editor's Comment: This is getting too close for comfort. In 1978, I lived on the Avenida Petit Thouars in Lince.) Beachgoers in La Herradura, a seaside resort 11 kilometers (7 miles) from Lima, reported seeing anomalous lights in the sky after sunset. (Editor's Note: It's late summer right now in Peru and the other countries of the southern hemisphere.) According to Dr. Virgilio Sanchez Ocedo of UFO Miami, on Saturday, February 13, 1999, "Another UFO was filmed in daytime and shown on Canal 5 Television Panamericana" that night. The startling videotape shows the saucer skimming low over the rooftops of stucco houses and palm trees in Callao. The same day, however, the Lima newspapers El Comercio and El Expresso dismissed the flap, stating that the nocturnal lights had been caused by "a news magazine's advertising campaign--a helicopter with lights cruising the nighttime skies." (See the newspapers El Comercio and El Expresso for February 13, 1999. Muchas gracias a Pilar Valencia, Guillermo Alarcon, Henry Farias, Rose Marie Paz y Dr. Virgilio Sanchez Ocedo para esas informaciones sobre los OVNIs en Peru.) GIANT CYLINDRICAL UFO SEEN OVER GLOUCESTERSHIRE On Monday, February 8, 1999, businessman Miles J. was relaxing in his seat aboard a British Midlands A310 Airbus jetliner when he spotted something odd outside his window. He was flying home from Belfast, Northern Ireland, and the plane "had just begun its descent into London's Heathrow Airport. I was seated on the right side of the Airbus, and I first saw it as a kind of after-image." Looking again, Miles "saw a large, cigar-shaped UFO, at very high altitude. The very large, distinct, big cylindrical object was above the highest cloud layer. It seemed, relative to the aircraft, to be stationary. It was about 15 degrees deviation from the aircraft's flight path." "As the Airbus began to descend, the object remained fixed in altitude," he added, "It was finally obscured by scudding high cloud. It will appear to have been stationary, and in the last minutes of observation, I placed it at an altitude of approximately 45,000 to 50,000 feet approximately 50 miles from the aircraft. The object was white, long, and cylindrical, with no obvious features. It was pencil thin, with rounded ends, also white." Miles stated that he believes his plane was "a bit south of Birmingham" when he spotted the UFO. "There was complete cloud cover below, so no recognisable city could be seen. It would have been 25 minutes before landing. It was still in view up to the final descent, which would have been 10 minutes before landing. So that the total time in view was 15 minutes." If Miles's estimate of 50 miles is accurate, the giant UFO would have been hovering over Gloucestershire, perhaps near Cheltenham, Winchcomb or Northleach. (Email Interview) SECOND BLUE FIREBALL SIZZLES OVER CALIFORNIA On Thursday night, February 11, 1999, at about 7 p.m., another "blue fireball" lit up the night sky of northern California...and this one had tail fins! "People from San Francisco to Sacramento (California's state capital--J.T.) reported seeing the bright light about 7 p.m." "One Sacramento resident said the object 'was flying higher than the tops of trees' and appeared to have 'rocket fins above the tail.'" "One astronomer who did not see the light said it was most likely a fireball or meteor. Officials at nearby (U.S.) Air Force bases said the military launched no missiles in the area last night." (See the Modesto, Cal. Bee for February 12, 1999. Many thanks to Ian Darlington and Errol Bruce-Knapp for forwarding this news story.) BLUE UFO SIGHTED BY MANY IN SOUTHWESTERN OHIO On Sunday, February 14, 1999, at 11:15 p.m., hundreds of witnesses between the cities of Dayton and Cincinnati in southwestern Ohio sighted a "blue-colored object with a wispy, luminous trail." Five people called radio station WLW 700 AM in Cincinnati and talked about the UFO on the talk show Sci-Zone. "One caller was a retired cop from Dayton, Ohio (population 185,000) who spotted the object to the northwest of his location." "Another caller was from Milford, Ohio and also reported the object to the north. The object, he said, accompanied a 'flash' before its disappearance behind a tree here." Charles Stuart, a UFO researcher who lives in the Cincinnati area, witnessed the object while driving his car. He reported, "At around 11:15 p.m. Sunday night, February 14, 1999, I observed a bluish-white object descending vertically, disappearing behind a tree-line to the north...This mystery object did not jump up or down before before disappearing on the horizon. In fact, it gave the impression that it landed or impacted only a mile away. My best bet at this time is that the light was probably a large meteor or bolide passing through Earth's atmosphere at high altitude. The light appeared to be the apparent size of a dime at arm's length." (Many thanks to Kenneth Young of Cincinnati UFO Research for this report.) NEW UFO SIGHTING AT NEW JERSEY'S WANAQUE LAKE On Tuesday, February 9, 1999, two boys, Mike and Ryan, hiked up to Wanaque Reservoir in northern New Jersey "to look for UFOs." "We saw two objects over the hill on the horizon," Mike reported, "One was pulsating from a bronze light color to red and at one point was increasing in intensity. They just sat still as we watched and left. We only stayed for ten minutes as it was very cold outdoors. We'll return when it's warmer." New Jersey's Wanaque Reservoir has had a history of UFO activity dating back to its first big flap in 1966. The reservoir is located in Passaic County about 30 miles (48 kilometers) west of New York City. (See Filer's Files #7 for 1999. Many thanks to George A. Filer, Eastern director of MUFON, for letting UFO Roundup quote from his newsletter.) ORANGE SPHERE UFOs BACK IN ACTION IN AUSTRALIA Friday night, February 19, 1999, saw orange-sphere UFOs in the skies of two Australian states. In Exford, Vic., at 9:20 p.m., residents reported "bright orange lights seen in the sky for three minutes. They went off and then on again." At 9:33 p.m., residents in Melbourne, capital of Victoria state, reported an overflight of orange lights. At 9:41 p.m., a man in Burn Hill, Vic. telephoned the Australian UFO Research Network Hotline and reported "an orange light in the sky. The UFO was visible for three minutes." In Western Australia, at 9:31 p.m., four people in the town of Hydleburg "said they observed orange balls of light where they were." And in Perth, capital of Western Australia, a caller reported a "strange light in the sky" at 9:32 p.m. that night. (Many thanks to Diane Harrison of Australian UFO Research Network Hotline for these reports.) ECUFOR REQUESTS TIMEOUT IN BLOEMFONTEIN CASE South Africa's Evaluation Centre of UFO Reports (ECUFOR) issued a statement over the weekend, bringing "the attention of all readers and publishing institutions, including the Internet, that the details surrounding an alleged UFO sighting on 5 February 1999 are incorrect." ECUFOR stated that a UFO was sighted in the Bloemfontein area, and that they are presently investigating the case in depth. "ECUFOR is currently investigating the sighting, including the video taken at the time, and will issue a public release once all relevant witness testimonies have been documented and verified...all the video material authenticated. A further public release will be issued once analysis of the video material is complete." (Many thanks to Errol Bruce-Knapp for the ECUFOR press release.) BLACK HELICOPTERS RAID MORE TOWNS IN TEXAS The U.S. Army continued Operation Last Dance last week, with more "night tactical insertion" live-ammunition exercises in several towns near Corpus Christi, Texas. On Friday evening, February 12, 1999, the black helicopters swept into Port Aransas, Texas (population 2,233), located on the northern tip of Mustang Island about 30 miles (48 kilometers) eastward across the bay from Corpus Christi. "Black helicopters flew in low over the city and hovered over some large fuel tanks in a beach area. The tanks are enclosed in a large fenced area. Soldiers dressed in black rappelled by (nylon) rope to the tanks, stayed for a few minutes and then took off again." "Port Aransas mayor Glenn Martin said he didn't know how to answer questions from residents about training because he hadn't been informed." According to the Corpus Christi Caller Times, "'I didn't know what was going on,' Martin said, 'They were calling up asking about a bunch of black helicopters.'" Black helicopters also appeared in San Augustine within a day or two of the Port Aransas exercise. San Augustine (population 2,337) is on Highway 147 approximately 223 miles (367 kilometers) southeast of Dallas. "The town of San Augustine had a confirmed military exercise within the past few days. Residents report they were frightened by black helicopters at night." In an interview with WorldNet Daily, Thomas Sanchez, emergency coordinator with the Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA) in Kingsville, Texas, said, "They pulled the same stunt in a little county south of us, in a little town called Sarita, population 500. Black helicopters were reported hovering over a private residence with search lights. That incident happened prior to the start of Last Dance," which began in Kingsville on February 8. Sarita is on Highway 77, about 40 miles (64 kilometers) south of Corpus Christi. "Residents in Calallen were badly frightened when Last Dance came to their backyard. This attack took place at an abandoned water plant on the Nueces River along (Interstate Highway) I-37. Homes and an apartment complex are located within a hundred yards, according to residents. Police had surrounded the area to keep bystanders away, and printed notices were placed on residents' doors about 30 minutes before it happened. This notice did not disclose the nature of the exercise." Black helicopters were also spotted in San Antonio, Annaville and in Austin, the state capital. "Carol Darby, a spokeswoman for the Army Special Operations Command at Fort Bragg" in North Carolina told WorldNet Daily "that the public is never notified before such exercises because it poses a security risk and also a danger to residents, who tend to gather and watch." "Darby has said that as the world grown more urban, it is important for Special Forces to practice their skills in a variety of urban environments." On Tuesday, February 16, 1999, about 100 Delta Force troopers flew from California to Texas to participate in the final exercise of Operation Last Dance. "The elite group of 100 is trained to fight terrorists in an urban environment. They have arrived at Corpus Christi Naval Station and Fort Sam Houston for the last days of the training exercise that has caused so much controversy." (See the Corpus Christi Caller Times for February 13, 1999, "Military training disrupts Port A residents." See also WorldNet Daily for February 12, 1999, "Port Aransas, Texas attacked;" for February 13, 1999, "Armed and Dangerous--Is the Army invading Texas?" and February 18, 1999, "Yes, Texas, there are black helicopters" by David M. Bresnahan.) MEXICAN PYRAMID MUCH OLDER THAN EXPECTED Proceedings of the Fourth International Maya Congress in Antigua, Guatemala produced some surprises about the Mayan pyramid of Comalcalco. The small city of Comalcalco is located in Mexico's Tabasco state about 410 kilometers (246 miles) east of Mexico City. "The papers presented" at the conference "discussed an excavation which Gordo Eckholm began at Comalcalco's Temple 2 site. At the top of the temple, into its floor, Eckholm dug a trench, which revealed thirty-eight previous flooring levels. These levels, of course, imply a very long occupation. Floorings can be estimated to last twenty to thirty years; therefore it could be supposed that the levels would suggest eight or nine hundred years of occupation at the site." "Since most researchers agrees that Comalcalco terminated its building period between 1000 and 1200 A.D., estimates date the first flooring back to 100 or 200 A.D." "Eckholm's drawings are quite specific. Under the last or lowest floor, they show the stucco covering of a clay mound, which was the base of the temple itself. This mound dated much earlier than Maya times." (See Ancient American volume 4, number 26, Winter 1999, "Mexico's pyramidal Comalcalco--a thousand years older than suspected," by Neil Steede, page 16) (Editor's Comment: This suggests that the original Comalcalco mound pyramid--like the one at Cahokia, Illinois, USA--was a sacred site for hundreds of years before the rise of the Mayan civilization.) from the UFO Files... 1954: ALIEN LANDS AT LOSSIEMOUTH A strange encounter between a human and a reputed alien took place at Lossiemouth, in northeastern Scotland, on February 18, 1954. "Writer, amateur astronomer and ornithologist Cedric Allingham claimed that he saw a flying saucer land near Lossiemouth, on the north- eastern cost of Scotland." "A 'man' some six feet tall emerged from the craft and approached Allingham. This being was said to be human-like in most respects, and appeared to differ only in that he had a very high forehead. He wore a one-piece garb with footwear incorporated, but no helmet. He also had tiny tubes running up into his nostrils, and the witness considered these to be part of a breathing aid." "According to the witness in his published account, he and the 'man' contrived to converse by signs, and it is claimed that the visitor indicated that he came from Mars. Photographs of both the saucer and the 'Martian' were taken and published in support of this claim." (See THE HUMANOIDS, edited by Charles Bowen, Henry Regnery Co., Chicago, Illinois, 1969, pages 14 and 15. See also FLYING SAUCER FROM MARS by Cedric Allingham, Frederick Muller Books, London, 1956.) FUN UFO WEBSITES UFOSeek has a new Paranormal and UFO Search Engine. Check it out at http://www. ufoseek.com Rick Fowler has a nice array of UFO events in Canada's Saskatchewan province at his new website. Drop in any time at this URL: http://duke.usask.ca/~fowlerr/u.html Don't miss our parent site, UFOINFO. We're now linked directly to Wally's World. Check out the links, photos, features and news stories available at http://ufoinfo.com Back issues of UFO Roundup can be read, accessed and downloaded at our webpage. Come on in and browse at http://ufoinfo.com/roundup That's it for this week. We'll be back next week with more saucer news from around the planet, brought to you by "the paper that goes home--UFO Roundup." See you then. UFO ROUNDUP: Copyright 1999 by Masinaigan Productions, all rights reserved. Readers may post news items from UFO Roundup on their websites or in newsgroups, provided that they credit the newsletter and its editor by name and list the date of issue in which the item first appeared. John Hayes jhayes@cableinet.co.uk webmaster@ufoinfo.com UFOINFO:- http://ufoinfo.com UFO Roundup:- http://ufoinfo.com/roundup/ Filer's Files:- http://ufoinfo.com/filer/ UFOICQ Australian UFO Reports and Experiences:- http://ufoinfo.com/ufoicq/
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 22 Re: Pope On A Rope From: Rory Lushman <rory.l@zen.co.uk> Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 22:35:02 -0000 Fwd Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 22:34:38 -0500 Subject: Re: Pope On A Rope Dear All, Whilst driving home in a blizzard last night, I was listening to the car radio and I heard that Nick Pope was a guest on Talk Radio's, James Whale show. James asked him about his alleged abduction but Nick would neither confirm or deny he had been allegedly abducted even though James pushed him for an answer. He did however say, that if "this person" who had been abducted, worked for the MOD, the event was prior to his employment with said department. He then also went on to say that if "this person" had been regressed to try and retrieve more memories, it would have been long after they left the MOD. He then stated that if "this person" had indeed been abducted or had been regressed, then it had not interfered with "their" work, as it had not occurred during "their" particular work period. So it was nothing to do with anybody. He says he was never interested in UFO's and it was the MOD who offered him his post, not him applying for it. Cryptic or what. Sounds like an admission to me. Why doesn't he just say no, if it never happened. Nick also went on to say that no "black projects" have the capability to do the right angle turns that these reported UFO's make. He says the RAF do NOT have anything that can do this, or indeed, neither does any Airforce in the world. He has spoken to people who have told him this. Eeerrrrrr yeah. Rory Lushman.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 23 Adduction: Serious Research Questions From: Leanne Martin <leanne_martin@hotmail.com> Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 15:02:30 PST Fwd Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 07:50:20 -0500 Subject: Adduction: Serious Research Questions G'day Listers, I have two serious questions: Q1p1: Does anyone know of any research into abductions where amputees were the victims? Q1p2: If so did any of them report the perception that they we no longer an amputee, i.e. that they seemed to be complete again physically? Q2p1: Does anyone know of any research into abductions where blind people (not 'vision impaired')were the victims? [I do mean blind from birth.] Q2p2: If so how did these victims describe their abductors (and what they had experienced)? I repeat - these are serious questions. Regards, Leanne ];-)
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 23 The Millennium Report - February 22, 1998 From: Paul Anderson - TMP/CPR-Canada <psa@direct.ca> Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 15:38:38 -0800 Fwd Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 07:53:11 -0500 Subject: The Millennium Report - February 22, 1998 The Millennium Report The News Service of The Millennium Project February 22, 1998: Contrail and Y2K Updates, Miami Circle SAVED, UFO News, "Martial Law" in Texas and more _____________________________ The Millennium Project Web Site: http://persweb.direct.ca/psa _____________________________ In This Report: Contrail Reports, Photos and Feedback - Updated, Including Report and Photos from Missouri (Special Research Projects) http://persweb.direct.ca/psa/conrep.html Contrails: William Thomas Interview on Art Bell - February 18, 1999 (This audio file link requires RealAudio or RealPlayer http://ww2.broadcast.com/artbell/abell/9902/ab0218.ram Contrails Over Long Island, New York - Report and Photos http://www.sightings.com/ufo2/cccontrails.htm Contrails: Mass Vaccination? http://www.sightings.com/ufo2/massvacc.htm Contrail Analysis: Examining the Difference Between "Normal" and "Spray" Contrails http://www.erols.com/igoddard/contrail.htm New "Radar Circle" Anomaly in Nevada (Special Research Projects) http://persweb.direct.ca/psa/radar99.html White House Fears Y2K Panic http://www.wired.com/news/news/politics/story/17986.html Y2K: American Cities Begin Alerting Public http://www.y2knewswire.com/19990222.htm Y2K Glitch in Ontario Results in Erroneous Traffic Tickets - Payment Due in 2097! http://www.earthchangesTV.com/breaking/index.htm#y2k0215 Miami Circle SAVED! http://www.sightings.com/ufo2/miamicircle2.htm Miami Circle Live Cam http://www.enterprisemission.com/miamicam.html US Attacks US: "Martial Law" Training Exercises in Texas http://www.sightings.com/politics2/attacks.htm UFO Roundup 4.8, February 22 http://www.ufoinfo.com/roundup/v04/rnd04_08.htm Filer's Files - February 19, 1999 http://www.sightings.com/ufo2/newlights.htm Scientists Slow Down Speed of Light to 38 mph! http://www.sightings.com/ufo2/speedoflight.htm A Steamy Coverup on the Red Planet http://science.nasa.gov/current/event/ast18feb99_1.htm _________________________ The Millennium Report is the news service of The Millennium Project, an independent research organization initiated in January 1999 as an alternative source of news and information to the maintream media. TMP was founded by future studies researcher Paul Anderson, also director of Circles Phenomenon Research Canada. TMR is updated weekly or as breaking news develops. This free e-mail summary is available by subscription; to be added to or removed from the mailing list, send your request, including either "subscribe TMR" or "unsubscribe TMR" and e-mail address to: psa@direct.ca A web edition of TMR, with this report plus previous news listings, is available on the TMP web site. Where possible, external links are provided directly to original sources. If a link is no longer working or a document is unavailable, please notify TMP by e-mail at psa@direct.ca See the TMP web site for complete news and information updates: Main Web Site (frames): http://persweb.direct.ca/psa The Millennium Report: http://persweb.direct.ca/psa/tmr.html Special Research Projects: http://persweb.direct.ca/psa/srp.html _____________________________ =A9 TMP, 1999 For further information or correspondence, contact: Paul Anderson Founder / Director THE MILLENNIUM PROJECT Main Web Site (frames): http://persweb.direct.ca/psa The Millennium Report: http://persweb.direct.ca/psa/tmr.html Special Research Projects: http://persweb.direct.ca/psa/srp.html Director CIRCLES PHENOMENON RESEARCH CANADA Affiliate of Circles Phenomenon Research International Main Web Site (frames): http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Cavern/3310 1999 Updates: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Cavern/3310/1999.html Representative BLT RESEARCH, INC. Suite 202 - 2086 West 2nd Avenue, Vancouver, BC V6J 1J4 Tel / Fax: 604.731.8522 E-Mail: psa@direct.ca
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 23 Re: A Poststructuralist Take On The UFO Phenomenon From: Michael Christol <mchristo@mindspring.com> Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 18:02:11 -0600 Fwd Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 07:57:49 -0500 Subject: Re: A Poststructuralist Take On The UFO Phenomenon >Dean's thesis in this book, insofar as it can be encapsulated, >is that 'to claim to have seen a UFO, to have been abducted by >aliens, or even to believe those who say they have' constitutes >'a political act' because it 'contests the status quo'--a status >quo that is both political and epistemological. On the political >front, she rounds up and slimes the usual b=EAtes noires of the >left: white guys, big corporations, the military-industrial >complex. On the epistemological front, Dean's case is far more >radical, arguing that the popularity of ufology 'marks the >widespread conviction that previously clear and just languages >and logics...are now alien, now inseparable from their >irrational others.' Alien narratives, in short, 'challenge us to >face head-on...the dissolution of notions of truth, rationality, >and credibility' in the information age. Am I to assume then that when Dean states: 'to claim to have seen a UFO, to have been abducted by aliens, or even to believe those who say they have' constitutes 'a political act' because it 'contests the status quo' - a status quo that is both political and epistemological;' that to make a political statment could be construed to 'violate the law of the land?' In essence to become a 'political criminal?' If this is so, then what do we surmise about the great men and women of the past who, through great inventions, change the 'status quo' of accepted reality, and politically speaking: 'violate the law of the land?' Does this make such people as: Thomas Edison, Alexander Graham Bell, Nikola Tesla, Orvil and Wilber Wright, Madam Curie, Jonas Salk, and other great names criminals because they 'challanged' and 'prevailed' over the 'accepted reality of their times?' Is this ideology making all who would 'push the boundaries' outward and reveal a totally '_new_' awareness Criminals? Are we so paranoid that we would rather dwell in the past than move to the future? Maybe I have misinterpreted the above statement. If so, would someone please show me where. Also, please forgive the misspelled words and typos which may have occurred in this message. REgards, Mike
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 23 Italian Sighting? From: Diane Harrison <tkbnetw@fan.net.au> Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 11:49:59 +1000 Fwd Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 08:03:51 -0500 Subject: Italian Sighting? The Keith Basterfield Network Australasia E-Mail tkbnetw@fan.net.au http://www.fan.net.au/~tkbnetw **************************************************************** UFO Australian Research Network Hot Line Number 1800 77 22 88 Free Call **************************************************************** Hi everyone I need some help with a recent UFO sighting which took place in Italy it was shown on Foxtel channel 37 Time 5.30am on Thursday 18th 2 1999 Program E FATTE VOSTRI I have had a call from a viewer here in Australia that said the UFO which appeared over Gaven Way, Via Gold Coast was the same has the one seen in Italy. Cigar Shape with a very light on the end. "Can some help verify the Italian UFO footage". At present the Australian UFO footage is under video analysis. I will let you know soon what the results are. Regards Diane Harrison
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 23 Australian UFO Research Network 'Outback Tour' From: Diane Harrison <tkbnetw@fan.net.au> Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 11:55:40 +1000 Fwd Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 08:40:51 -0500 Subject: Australian UFO Research Network 'Outback Tour' The Keith Basterfield Network Australasia E-Mail tkbnetw@fan.net.au http://www.fan.net.au/~tkbnetw **************************************************************** UFO Australian Research Network Hot Line Number 1800 77 22 88 Free Call **************************************************************** THE AUSTRALIAN UFO RESEARCH NETWORK "OUTBACK TOUR" Hi Skywatchers, I'm taking a trip to Australia's Red Center with 5 Australian Ufologists. I have posted the itinerary so your able to follow the path where taking. It is our intention to talk to has many country people as we can about UFO sightings in their area. We will be filming the whole trip so when we get home we can share the experience with those who where not able to tag a long. Some of you may already be aware that Australia now has a 1 800 telephone number "Report a UFO Sighting Free Call". It is supported by 58 UFO Groups and Independent UFO Researchers through out Australia & New Zealand. 58 doesn't sound a lot but in Australia it is. Most groups have around 200 to 300 members. It is our intention AUFORN to inform our country people of the Free Call Hotline. Robert and I have printed over 2000 flyers and will be dropping them off as we go. We Aussie know there's nothing like the bush telegraph to get the message out. The Australian UFO Research Network is a non-profit organization and a lot of money comes out of or members own pockets, I think Jim can relate to this. Our Hotline however, is sponsored by private businesses, UFO Groups & Independent Researchers I would like to take this opportunity to thank all who have sponsored the Hotline number - all our Australasian UFO groups, independent researchers & private enterprise. My warm thanks to Duncan Roads of the NEXUS Magazine. Duncan was kind enough to back the UFO Hotline number by placing a quarter page advertisement worth over $250 and a donation. Thank you very much Mr Duncan Roads for your support I will be off-line for 15 days from the 27th 2 1999 to 14th 3 1999. I have left the Hotline in the hands of AUFORN members, Jan & Kay, I'm sure the'll do a great job. Right Girls? :>) To those how may be on this Network in Australia and would like to meet up with us, check the Itinerary. We maybe coming through your home town. I will keep you all posted if I see anything :>) Take Care Regards Diane Harrison Skywatch International Australian Director Founder of The Keith Basterfield Network Australasia Co-Director The Australian UFO Research Network Free_Call_Hotline ______________________________________________________________ Itinerary for the trip to Alice Springs Alice Springs 1999 UFO Outback Tour Day 1. Sat Leave Brisbane for Longreach Day 2. Sun: Longreach To Boulia Stopover: Boulia Visiting: Ruins of The Min Min Hotel Day 3. Mon: Boulia to Gregory Stopover: Camooweal Caves Visiting: Camooweal Caves National Park Day 4. Tues: Gregory to Tennant Creek Stopover: Wycliffe Well Visiting: Devils Marbles, Wycliffe Well Roadhouse, meeting up with Keith Douglass Alice Springs own UFO investigator Day 5. Wed: Alice Springs Stopover: 3 days Visiting: Ayres Rock, sightseeing with local ufologist Keith Douglass Day 8. Sun: Return Trip Home - Alice To Tennant Creek Stopover: Renner Visiting: Renner Springs Day 9. Mon: Tennant Creek To Mount Isa Stopover: Mount Isa Visiting: Mines, Talk to the locals. DAY 10. Tue: Mount Isa To Cloncurry, Winton Stopover: Winton Visiting: Bladenburg National Park Day 11. Wed: Winton To Alhpa Or Emerald? Stopover: Emerald Visit: Fairbairn Dam, Queensland's largest orange plantation, go Opal mining. DAY 12. Thu: Emerald To Carnarvon Gorge Stopover: 2 Days - Carnarvon Gorge National Park DAY 13. Fri: Carnarvon to Bunya Mountains Stopover: Bunya Mountain Visit: The Bunya Mountains National Park Day 14 Sat: Home To Brisbane For more details contact: Diane Harrison tkbnetw@fan.net.au
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 23 Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality From: Peter Brookesmith Mendoza <DarkSecretPB@compuserve.com> Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 23:38:24 -0500 Fwd Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 08:45:53 -0500 Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality With the complimnts of the Duke of Mendoza: >From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 12:29:25 -0500 I am answering this in two posts, because there are two quite different bits to Greg's message... >I like the cooperative spirit of your idea that we both >examine a single case. We've certainly shown in our >many >private and public conversations that we can agree on both >facts and methods. I do think, though, that whatever case we >looked at should be meticulously documented in overwhelming >detail. There's also a problem with first-hand investigation -- >ideally I'd want to do some, since abduction cases normally are >strewn with factual claims that are hard to evaluate. But how >would Peter in Wales and me in New York do gumshoe work on the >same material? (Maybe by phone.) Gumshoeing wasn't quite what I had in mind... not that I'm agin the principle, but there is that tricky matter of the Atlantic and, as you point out, even more, time. (This response comes so late because actual work forced me to ignore virtually everything else, and more work is going to jump out of its alien egg and infest me again soon, too. I never recommend being around me at breakfast anyway, but this could get really messy.) Give me six months in New York, and a decent budget, though, and I'd say we should take "Witnessed" apart. If being so long in New York didn't take me apart first! I was thinking of some *reasonably* well-documented case that one might dissect. Not necessarily in public, i.e. listville, at least until the exercise was complete. Not necessarily in a great rush. And more as an essay in seeing where the limits of the report(s) lie - on which I suspect we would largely agree - and the limits of our different approaches. You benign and forgiving, myself jaundiced, jaded and cynical, of course. I note none of the good and the great out there has suggested what such a case might be, despite the invitation to nominate one. I wonder why. But I would suggest it's one that's not only copiously reported but old and dead and relatively simple - like, not Andreasson, or Cortile, or Tujunga Canyon. My thought was less to "solve" a case than to look at the way it has been reported - or, in my notoriously closed-minded terms, turned *into* an abduction - and what questions haven't been answered, or can't be answered, and so on. besy wishes Pressgang D. Midshipman Grog Rationer
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 23 Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality From: Peter Brookesmith Mendoza <DarkSecretPB@compuserve.com> Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 23:38:20 -0500 Fwd Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 08:49:19 -0500 Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality With the compliments of a belated Duke of Mendoza: >From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 10:28:26 -0500 >One further problem with these assertions of media influence is >that -- at least as I've seen them made (maybe Kevin's book will >make a better case) -- they can't be falsified. Martin Kottmeyer >(who's made these assertions more strongly than anyone else) >says the aliens Betty and Barney Hill described derive from an >"Outer Limits" episode televised not long before the Hills were >hypnotized. >Betty Hill says they didn't watch the eipsode, and in fact never >watched science ficition on TV. A skeptic, supporting Kottmeyer, >can then say that she's lying, that her memory is faulty, or >that the Hills heard about the Outer Limits aliens from friends. >And there's no way to prove that the skeptic isn't right. >But if there's no way to prove that the Hills' aliens didn't >come from the media, how can there be any way to prove that they >did? These claims of media influence need a much firmer >foundation. Falsifiability here is, I submit with great respect, a red herring. How falsifiable are abduction claims? Or perhaps I should say, how falsifiable are abduction claims, given the way they are presented by their investigators? I doubt we can do much science on these stories, although one can shred bits of them on scientific grounds - Linda Cortile's nonsense about shellfish eating basalt, for example, or the whole of the hybrid-baby/alien pregnancy scenario on genetic grounds. We are dealing - and should admit we are dealing - with something much nearer a balance of probabilities than proof beyond reasonable doubt. >From that point of view - looking at the evidence forensically rather than (pseudo)scientifically - we have in the Hills' case the first appearance of wraparound speaking eyes in the abduction/CE3 literature. We have a TV show 10 days or so before with the first appearance of wraparound speaking eyes in science fiction. These are *two* unique items, not just one. Barney had, I established, the opportunity to see the show, certainly the opportunity to hear about it, and a man deeply interested in the possibility of contact with aliens (whether he liked it or accepted it at this point or not). I could go to the extreme of liberalism, not a position I like to inhabit for long, and say that *even if the Hills' encounter were genuine*, the detail of the wraparound speaking eyes very likely came from "The Bellero Shield" and in one form or another have contaminated abduction accounts (true or false, whatever) since. What Betty Hill told Jerome Clark on the phone is scarcely relevant, and he can continue to refer to "unkillable canards" as long as he likes; we have either an amazing coincidence or powerful evidence for direct influence. No doubt as a Fortean - oh, never mind. Kottmeyer has pointed out a similar addition from the media, the appearance of "pencil-thin necks" only after the film "CE3" came out. You may also recall that Betty's aliens' "Durante schnozzles" vanished quite early on in her accounts, if you doubt narrators can be influenced. And we now know Barney most definitely heard Betty's accounts of her dreams before the hypnosis began; how likely then is it that the two of them were *not* coming over time to a consensus... ? For a detailed take, I add for everyone's delectation Martin Kottmeyer's latest effusion on this, published in REALL News Vol 6 No 5 (June/July 1998), accessible at http://www.reall.org/newsletter/v06/n05/eyes-still-speak.html and under that a brief passage (page 26) from Ed Bullard's 'Apocalypse in Gray', IUR Summer 1998 (pages 20-27). best wishes Pickenshovel D. Manualworker Fork Lifter ------------------------------- THE EYES STILL SPEAK Martin Kottmeyer Defenders of the reality of the alien abduction phenomenon have taken notice of my argument that Barney Hill was influenced by the Outer Limits episode "The Bellero Shield" that appeared in The REALL News (Vol. 2, #7; July 1994) and elsewhere. Evidently disturbed by its implications they have offered some counter-arguments that they hope refute or render uncertain this claim of influence. Those appearing in Jerome Clark's The UFO Book: Encyclopedia of the Extraterrestrial (Visible Ink Press, 1998, pp. 15, 291-2.) will be addressed in what follows. 1. Both Jerome Clark and Thomas E. Bullard offer our first argument in their independent entries on "Abduction Phenomenon" and "Hill Abduction Case." Simply put, they feel Barney probably did see wraparound eyes on the entity long before "The Bellero Shield" aired. His earlier, conscious recall of what happened on the date of initial sighting seems to suggest this interpretation to them. Bullard states Barney "remembered a being with compelling eyes looking down at him from a UFO. If he saw the Outer Limits episode, he might have borrowed the wraparound eyes as a metaphor, but his preoccupation with the staring entity and its eyes began years before this television image could have influenced him." Clark states, "In his conscious memory, dating from that night in September 1961 (long before the airing of the show, in other words), Barney could recall seeing the beings only from a distance, from which perspective the precise shape of the eyes may not have been easily apparent. He did, however, remember vividly the intense stare and the apparent mental message that the beings were about to capture him. The sense of being caught in the stare, and of being the recipient of communication in that state, is consistent with his later testimony." Observe that neither Bullard nor Clark offers quotations in support of their attempted refutations. Let's look at the actual record provided by John Fuller in The Interrupted Journey. In the first document on the case, Information Report 100-1-61, neither the figures on the craft or their eyes are mentioned. Fuller avers this was because of fear of ridicule. The next document is Betty Hill's letter to Donald Keyhoe. In it she states, "one figure was observing us from the windows." Barney is described as hysterical and "laughing and repeating that they are going to capture us." (p. 47) Is this consistent with seeing a being with compelling eyes? Next we come to Webb's report of October 26, 1961. In it the leader in the craft is described as peering out of the window at Barney. The being is not close enough to observe facial characteristics, but Barney could see a grin on one figure and an expressionless face. The eyes are not emphasized and no word of elongation or eyes that speak. (p. 54) When we come to the account of the Hohman, Jackson, McDonald meeting of November 1961 the description runs, "moving figures in the craft, the one that kept looking back at me with those eyes. He gave me the impression -- and this was dim in my memory, but there just the same -- that he was a capable person, and there can be no nonsense here. We have business to attend to." There is still no mention of wraparound eyes or eyes that speak and it seems odd that he can discern such impressions as the person being a no-nonsense capable person and yet overlook these traits if they were consciously present. (p. 67) Further along, on p. 76, Barney is wrestling with his emotions that are described as, "The unexplained panic, that he knew to be foreign to his general reactions plagued him, in addition to the curtain of absolute blankness that descended at that moment." Basically, what he is preoccupied with is not "those eyes" but the missing time and his hysteria. This is also manifestly the issue in his presenting complaints to Doc Simon. This is the extent of the paper trail on these matters prior to the hypnosis sessions with Doc Simon. However, there is one account I skipped. In Chapter One, Fuller describes Barney seeing the craft in these terms: "His memory at this point is blurred. For a reason he cannot explain, he was certain he was about to be captured. He tried to pull the glasses away from his eyes, to turn away, but he couldn't. As the focus became sharp, he remembered the eyes of the one crew member who stared down at him. Barney had never seen eyes like that before." (p. 32) Bullard has admitted in correspondence that this was the source of his impression that Barney had seen compelling eyes, albeit it is clear that Barney feels the compulsion to watch before he had focused the glasses. The bigger problem is that Fuller does not give his sources for this construction of this account. Given what we see in the extant paper trail, it seems likely that Fuller is incorporating material post-dating the hypnosis sessions with Doc Simon. Clark's assertions that Barney was "caught in the stare" and that he received "communication in that state" or an "apparent mental message" have no support in the paper trail and it is a puzzle how he even got the impression such things happened. Barney's sense of imminent capture is more simply understood as his reading of the situation that he believes a craft is hovering out there and is interested in him for some reason. He didn't need a mental message to infer there might be reason to worry that something like capture is being considered. Clark's claim that the conscious memories are consistent with the hypnosis session has additional problems. The speaking eyes belong to a figure standing in the road not the figure in the craft that purportedly generated the sense of imminent capture. The message of the speaking eyes in the hypnosis session was "Don't be afraid." Barney says in the hypnosis session that he isn't. Yet in the conscious recollections of both Barney and Betty, he panicked and became hysterical. Perhaps I'm quibbling, but that doesn't look consistent to me. 2. Our second argument appears in the writings of both Bullard and Clark though with different degrees of emphasis and detail. Writes Clark in The UFO Book, "Kottmeyer did not trouble to inquire of Betty Hill, who is still alive, if she and her husband were in the habit of watching Outer Limits. (When asked by another writer, Betty said, 'As for the Outer Limits -- never heard of it. Barney worked nights. If he was not working, we were never home because of our community activities. If we had been home, I am sure this title would not interest us.')" In a summer 1996 review of Carl Sagan's book The Demon-Haunted World, Clark frets that Sagan "recycles Martin Kottmeyer's specious theory, by now an all-but-unkillable canard, that Barney Hill got the idea for wraparound eyes from a 1964 episode of Outer Limits. To start with the Hills never watched the show; Betty had never even heard of it until I asked her about it last year." Despite the word "start" there, this is the only argument he uses in the Sagan review to show that we are wrong. Bullard simply says Betty says Barney did not see The Outer Limits episode without offering quotes or reference. The context suggests he puts less weight on this argument and offers it more in an informational way than a way of killing a canard. True, I didn't inquire. Wraparound eyes and speaking eyes are so exotic and the congruence in time so impressive, anything that Betty might say would be irrelevant. If she had said Barney had seen it, I would not have used it because it would be a weak argument guaranteed to be picked apart, dismissed, and form a target of innuendo. Historians, indeed most people, know that second-hand decades-old memories are unreliable. The fact that Clark happened to be the first to inquire Betty on the point in 1995 despite my "canard" being around since 1990 shows how unusual Clark's action was. Betty says she never heard of The Outer Limits. The issue is whether or not Barney saw it. Betty says Barney worked nights. The implication here would seem to be that Barney could not have seen the show because he was working when the show was airing. Peter Brookesmith has recently established that Barney was working from midnight to 8:00 a.m. The Outer Limits aired from 7:30 to 8:30 p.m. on Monday evenings. Betty's statement thus seems largely irrelevant or invalid. I might be inclined to take the comment about community activities more seriously if it meant as a corollary the Hills did not even own a TV or that nobody in their community owned TV sets. As Peter Brookesmith has suggested in his recent book Alien Abductions , this may decrease the chances Barney saw the show, but it increases the odds he may have run into someone who saw the show and told Barney about it. The statement that such a title would not interest them means little since they could have been flipping through the channels and watched the relevant parts not even knowing what show it was. Brookesmith mentions that when he talked with Betty Hill in April 1997, she elaborated on this point by indicating their interests were rather more intellectual than one might guess. The problem here is that The Outer Limits was a show by intellectuals, promoted as a show dealing in ideas, and that the specific episode "The Bellero Shield" was conspicuously Shakespearean in tone to the point of having obvious adaptations from Macbeth. Clearly, she is not helping her case with such an upside-down argument. Clark's faith that he has proven the claim of influence specious and nothing more than a canard is a poor gamble ultimately. Random chance arranging the congruence of speaking, wraparound eyes with the ancillary details appearing so close in time in both The Outer Limits and Barney's regression is too huge an improbability. The safe bet is Betty is wrong or overlooking something. Clark could have spared Betty and himself some embarrassment if he had simply exercised a little common sense. 3. The next argument is uniquely Clark's. He points out that Barney said the talking eyes at one point came so close to him that they pressed against him. "And I felt like the eyes had pushed into my eyes," seems to be the line he is not quoting. (p. 154) He points out that recent abduction accounts bear this detail even though it had been overlooked in subsequent rehashes of the Hill case. He quotes a passage from the sessions of one of David Jacobs's subjects named Karen Morgan, which, presumably, Clark thinks illustrates the point. Oddly, it does not. Morgan describes the eyes overwhelming her, going inside of her, and making her gone. Not only does Morgan not say the eyes pressed against hers, but Barney never said the eyes went inside him, overwhelmed him, or made him gone. Adding to the inconsistency is the fact that Morgan describes eyes that are all black and Barney drew eyes showing iris, pupil, and white. Clark's point would have been more correctly illustrated with three other cases in Jacobs who do actually describe alien faces pressed against the faces of abductees. And, indeed, he does better his point by recalling a similar account gathered by Karla Turner in a different work. Clark asserts, "Even Kottmeyer refrains from contending such accounts can be traced to a few overlooked sentences among the many Barney spoke during hours of hypnotic testimony. Having exhausted his argument he retreats into 'psychological symbolisms,' which he finds meaningful and others may see as evidence of Kottmeyer's reluctance to entertain more heretical and disturbing possibilities." I stated in my REALL News article that it would be tempting to speculate that the alien bonding practices described in the Jacobs book are descended from Barney's talking eyes. I refrained because I saw there were differences that also needed to be taken into account and, while it was something clearly interesting enough to mention in passing, I didn't want to clutter up a nice piece with a lengthy digression. Fuller's book remains in print and is far from obscure or inaccessible. It is possible that an abductee read it and passed along the eye-to-eye closeness detail in conversation. The complicating factor is that when Spock of Star Trek mind-melds with humans, his face is almost eyeball-to-eyeball close as well. Given the iconic status of Trek in our culture, who can deny that this might be a more plausible source of influence, especially in the absence of further details being borrowed from Fuller's book? The Lynn Miller account in the Jacobs book, to expand on this, speaks of the alien touching her head and of there being a situation of vulnerability which is redolent with Spock's reservations about performing mind-melding because of the terrible intimacy of the process, an intimacy suggestive of sexual union. Thinking of Trek about these differences is only natural. Bringing Barney into the argument demands we ask why he did not speak of vulnerability or pleasurable feelings with a sexual component as Miller did. There is additionally a complication apparent to anyone familiar with the historical legacy of exaggerated eye imagery in the world's storehouse of art, myth, and psychology. Eyes are rich in associations repeatedly exploited by the imagination. Miller and Trek may both be tapping into this cluster of common symbols rendering the need for Miller to know Trek or Fuller's book moot. What Clark sees as restraint, exhausting the argument, and a retreat, I felt was only being up-front about alternative interpretations. There's just no pleasing some people. And just what does Clark want us to entertain that is so heretical and disturbing? Aliens are able to overwhelm you, make you gone, just by looking into your eyes. Such lyrical horror seems to me the province of people like Stephen King and Whitley Strieber, whose rhetoric of magical powers and ethereal mind are more suited to the easy speculations of fiction than the rigor of logic. One small measure of the ease with which this idea comes can be seen in Camille Flammarion's 1890 work of fiction Urania. Flammarion was one of the first writers of scientific romance to imagine worlds populated by non-humans. On one such distant world he describes aliens with glowing eyes that had a special quality. "More than that, the power of their glance is such that they exert an electric and magnetic influence of variable intensity, and which under conditions has the effect of lightning, causing the victim upon whom the force and energy of their will is fixed to fall down dead." (p. 37) This could be considered an exact match to being made gone and overwhelmed, but before we start calling Flammonde an early abductee let's not overlook the fact that the alien eyes aren't black. What Clark promotes is a return to the ancient beliefs of the evil eye and possession, magical doctrines discarded by educated men for many, many years. That is truly disturbing and I do not apologize for being reluctant to join Clark in his courageous appetite for worm-eaten concepts. 4. Finally, Clark makes a number of accusations that I suppose form a type of argument. He says my claim of influence tells us nothing about the Hill experience. I took a small detail out of a much larger context of a complex experience and asked you to think of it as the only issue of consequence and to dismiss similar testimony about this detail as irrelevant to considerations about its reality status. What is missing is "a coherent hypothesis though it is hard to imagine what that hypothesis might be." He felt my claims were an effort to "explain away the Hill encounter." My inclination is to ask the reader to dig up my earlier paper and see how hallucinatory this sounds. My interest was to tell people about my discovery of the compelling coincidence of speaking and wraparound eyes appearing in a fictional alien encounter on The Outer Limits mere days before it appeared in Barney Hill's hypnosis testimony and the implications of people repeating this description in later accounts. I said nothing about this being an explanation for the whole of the Hill case, nor asked anyone to think it is the only thing of interest in the case. I trust most readers and editors appreciated the succinct character of my argument and regard Clark's demands for a lengthy exegesis of a complex experience as sophistry -- to say nothing about impractical outside of a book. My claim was simple and coherent. It should be evident by now that it is Clark's own comments that are largely incoherent and what is missing from his own account is an honest attempt to come to terms with that coincidence. Clark evidently believes Barney never saw "The Bellero Shield," but why then did that show happen to have wraparound and speaking eyes in it? I've viewed hundreds of SF films and state with no fear of contradiction that such traits are too exotic and scarce to seriously believe that random chance could arrange the coincidence. As a final note, I am pleased to report that Bullard has admitted in correspondence he erred about the argument in point 1, grants point 2 was open to obvious reservations, and agrees random chance is hard to swallow. He has other ruminations on this affair which I cherish, but I won't force his hand. In The UFO Book he regarded the counter-arguments to Barney being influenced as "the triumph of uncertainty" and proof of how the inspection of skeptical arguments shows them to be ramshackle structures. Inspection of the inspection has negated this triumph. The claim for influence still stands. -------------------------------- Discussing false memories in the course of reviewing David Jacobs's 'The Threat', Ed Bullard also wrote: Some years ago Martin Kottmeyer, a skeptic and student of popular culture, discovered that Barney Hill's description of his abductor resembled the alien in 'The Bellero Shield', an episode of the 'Outer Limits' science fiction TV series. Resemblances between science fiction and UFOs are a dime a dozen and prove only that the cultural cafeteria stocks every possible analogy. Whatlent special interest to the 'Bellero Shield' alien was the fact that the episode aired in February 1964, little more than a week before Barney underwent hypnosis to retrieve memories from his period of missing time in 1961. He stressed two features of the alien: Its eyes seemed to "wrap around" the side of its head, and these same eyes "spoke" to him. The TV alien presented those exact same qualities. I dismissed these likenesses because I thought Barney had retained a conscious preoccupation with alien eyes, if not necessary [sic] the "wraparound" description, ever since the night of the abduction. I was wrong. On closer reading in John G. Fuller's 'The Interrupted Journey', I saw that Barney had no recollection of alien eyes from his look into the UFO through his binoculars, and his preoccupation began only under hypnosis. The wraparound look and the telepathic speaking seem too distinctive for coincidence. Betty Hill is certain that they never watched 'Outer Limits'; yet this fact only sharpens the cautionary tale. Barney's reaction to the eyes under hypnosis was genuine and wrenching. If his exposure amounted to no more than a casual glance while flipping channels, or some chance observation forgotten a week later, human memory proves its remarkable ability to sponge up trivia and recast it as emotion-laden experience.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 23 Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality From: Peter Brookesmith Mendoza <DarkSecretPB@compuserve.com> Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 23:38:31 -0500 Fwd Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 08:52:15 -0500 Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality With the compliments of the Duke of Mendoza: >From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 12:29:25 -0500 Greg takes me to task, but not the cleaners, for overstating my case. Specifically, first, on the matter of of missing foetuses and allegedly alien-induced pregnancies. I had said that the case for these had been "demolished" by "Lack of Proof for Missing Embryo/Fetus Symdrome," by John G. Miller, presented at the MIT conference in 1992 (or was it 93). Greg he say: >His conclusion, though, is much milder than Peter would have us >believe: >"It is hoped that this paper will stimulate rsearchers to focus >on this problme in order to find a verifiable ME/FS [missing >embryo/fetus syndrome] case. This paper is not meant in a >negativistic sense. I still think it is possible that a >verifiable case can be found. I think that we have not yet >looked hard enough." >So the author of the paper Peter cites doesn't believe that he's >"demolished" the "myth" of missing fetuses. Peter may disagree >with Miller -- he might find Miller's arguments conclusive. But >he has no business, given Miller's own position, in phrasing his >own conclusions as if they were an absolute certainty. At best Miller's position reminds me of old-time evolutionists looking for a "missing link" between the apes and H. sapiens. We now know that that was too simple a way of looking for the connection between the two, and the issue has become altogether more complicated by the increase in knowledge. But enough was known in those distant days for anthropologists and evolutionists to have realized that they were asking the wrong questions; however, they didn't, and insisted a missing link must be out there somewhere if we could only find it. Miller asks the wrong questions and draws the wrong conclusions from his own work and, yes, I do think his findings are as conclusive as any one piece of research can be [I do take that point]. Miller just didn't want to accept them, because (it takes no great insight to discern) he is, as Greg euphemizes it, "sympathetic to abduction research". My objection here is that Miller, like many another, starts and ends in a sympathetic position, instead of simply asking, like the denizens of Broadway in a Damon Runyon story, "as follows: 'What is going on?' I see absolutely no reason not to present Miller's demolition as such, regardless of his own attitude. I could as easily say that the data Bullard's "Measure of a Mystery" disposes of the notion of any great consistency among abduction reports. Or I could carve the joint another way and say that the consistency he finds indicates something different from what he descries in the phenomenon. Those aren't his conclusions, but so what? There are other reasons to think the alien baby syndrome is hokum: in the midst of an otherwise bizarre argument, Michael Swords sets to rather satisfactorily on this issue in his 1991 MUFON Symposium presentation. I cite him only because he is a bona-fide ufologist and True Believer (Roswell, ETH) and not some wicked debunker whose name would only make some eyes glaze over and others to cross. Having said that, raising my treatment of Miller and his views is a bit of a diversion from the reason I mentioned him. Attention span being what it is, I'll pedantically remind everyone why: that despite Miller's paper, David Jacobs persisted in insisting that missing foetuses were a fact of life. He was at a loss to explain, when I challenged him, why these "virgin pregnancies" were not reported in the medical literature (they aren't: I had a massive database check run that confirmed it). There is no evidence beyond assertion for them whatever. Jacobs bases a whole thesis - if you can dignify his whacky ideas thus - on the alien breeding program. He plays fast and loose with what is known, as opposed to what is merely said. An aside. This is one of many reasons I call him intellectually dishonest. And, frankly, tough tittie, if being so blunt causes the more genteel of our readers to gibber and squeak like the sheeted dead. Possibly this is a cultural difference; Americans may have to learn to live with Chaucerian forthrightness. I recently read Greg's notorious criticism of the Boston Symphony & its resident conductor. A more mildly expressed opinion of what is plainly a bloody shambles one could scarcely hope to encounter. But from the half-crazed reaction, anyone would think Greg had exposed them all as cannibals and catamites. I doubt his article would have caused more than a few snorty letters - probably from viola players, who don't know the difference anyway - to the paper in the UK. As it is, ufology is bloated with mealy mouthed weasel-worded poltroonery, for reasons one can only imagine are political, social, or economic, that it's long since past time a pin was stuck in that balloon of cosiness. Back on the highway. Greg then quotes at length from Stuart Appelle on hypnosis. I find this interesting but not as balanced as Greg does; in fact, I'd say that underneath the urbane tone it verges on special pleading. Hypnosis has been shown time and again to be unreliable as a guide to real events, and of many different kinds, and the culprit is generally the hypnotizer, whose role Appelle doesn't address. Perhaps the most egregious are the tales of ritual satanic abuse - whose patterns are startlingly close to abduction stories, as another paper at MIT showed - that have emerged from agenda-laden investigators thus "refreshing" the memory. But Appelle would like us to reserve a special possibility that the technique works - assuming, one supposes, an expert practitioner, no leading, no suggestive set and setting, &c - for a particular kind of experience, under whose head abduction experiences can be subsumed. I beg leave to doubt that the generalized failures and pitfalls of using hypnosis will transmute into golden success in very specific conditions until shown otherwise, and in enormous detail. I can think of ways to investigate Appelle's suggestion experimentally, too, and using real-life trauma as the raw material. (Think security cameras.) The most valuable paragraph Greg quotes is the last: >"These considerations suggest a basis for the specific >hypnotizability obtained for abduction experiences. This should >not, however, be confused with an argument for the veridicality >of abduction experiences. The factors discussed certainly apply >to real events, but they could also apply to experiences >originating in the imagination or unconscious." Here I find myself back where I started. I have never argued that there is no such thing as an abduction experience. It is the literal physical reality I question. Nothing that Appelle says suggests I should recant that position. Nor do I see any reason to consider that my original comment about hypnosis - >The chosen investigative method, hypnosis, >has been shown to be unreliable _as a general tool_ in every >other application it has had on what is essentially a malleable >and little understood entity, memory. - is an overstatement. The emphasis is there for all to see. Finally, Greg says: >Peter, I hope you'll take my comments in the spirit in which I >offer them. I'd like to remove some of the excess emotion from >abduction debate, and avoid language that unavoidably reads as >an attack on anyone's character. No problem! best wishes Plantaganet D. Merovingian Proper Gent
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 23 Re: Pope On A Rope From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net> Date: Tue, 23 Feb 99 10:05:17 PST Fwd Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 16:05:35 -0500 Subject: Re: Pope On A Rope >Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 11:22:03 -0500 >From: Andy Roberts <Brigantia@compuserve.com> >Subject: Re: Pope On A Rope >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net> >>Subject: Re: Pope On A Rope >>Date: Sun, 21 Feb 99 11:59:46 PST >>To: ufoupdates@globalserve.net >>Since we are not to trust anybody who ever fibbed about >>anything, for any reason whatever -- the effect, of course, is >>to put Pope's disingenuousness on the same level as the lies of >>the most monstrous of prevaricators (an indication also of the >>level of moral and intellectual sophistication on which our >>mounted friend is operating) -- does that include Peter >>Rojcewicz? Is he, like Pope, a proven liar, not to be believed >>about anything, including remarks about weather conditions? Is >>it your desire that the University of Pennsylvania withdraw his >>Ph.D. certification? Should the Journal of American Folklore be >>notified so that it can apologize to its readers? >Discounting your clodhopping way with sarcasm at the beginning >of the preceding para., yes is the answer. Roberts signs his communications "Happy Trails," after the Dale Evans song. I addressed him as "Cowboy." I signed off "Leaving Cheyenne," after the venerable Western folk song. Offense was not meant, guy. >At no time did I >state that we shouldn't trust anyone who had lied about >anything, as you are well aware. What I did say, and which seems >to have had some difficulty sinking in with you, is that if and >when people involved in any aspect of anomalous phenomena >research or investigation issue lies into the arena which are >subsequently discovered then we should not immediately trust >anything they say until they have provided the required >evidence. It doesn't matter whether it's Popey, Max Burns >(though obviously more fun when it is) or Peter Rojcewicz. I rest my case. I think we are not -- I am trying to be charitable here -- dealing with someone whose thinking can exactly be characterized as nuanced. In the real world persons shade the truth for all kinds of reasons, good and bad. Shading the truth in a particular instance so as not to subject oneself to embarrassment or ridicule is among the most common, practiced by all sorts of otherwise honorable and truthful individuals. In the two cases we are discussing -- that of somebody here called "Popey" (Nick Pope to the rest of us) and that of Peter Rojcewicz (no known insulting nickname available) -- we are dealing with persons who shaded the truth for the reasons stated above. Unless we find evidence that Pope and Rojcewicz have engaged in a pattern of chronic lying, no one except the self-righteous crusader like Andy Roberts will draw larger negative conclusions. This, in fact, was the point I made in my first posting. Everything Roberts has done so far simply confirms the suspicion I had all along: he's out heretic-hunting, and reason, fairness, and proportion be damned. Jerry Clark
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 23 Re: Pope On A Rope From: Rory Lushman <rory.l@zen.co.uk> Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 16:01:28 -0000 Fwd Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 16:06:03 -0500 Subject: Re: Pope On A Rope >From: Tim Matthews <matthews@zetnet.co.uk> >To: "UFO UpDates - Toronto" <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: Re: Pope On A Rope >Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 18:22:15 -0000 >The other excellent example, beyond the fantasy of the >Howden Moor fiasco, is the Mark Lloyd 'sighting' where >Lloyd claims that a 3 miles long UFO hovered for 20-30 >minutes over Cheshire on the same day as the >"Manchester Near Miss" incident of January 1995. >He is the only person to have seen this. In an area with a >population of several millions! Tim is absolutely correct on the above. I have been involved with the Mark Lloyd case - not always by choice - for about three years. Please find below my account of this case. Please note that our group, the Pendle, Hyndburn UFO Network, also produce a magazine called "DOWN TO EARTH" and this should not be confused with the magazine of the same title produced by ELUFON, plus our advertising is FREE. THE MANCHESTER AIR MYTH. Many of you will no doubt remember the famous Manchester Air Miss case, whereby British Airways pilots Roger Wills and Mark Stuart reported a UFO shooting past their Boeing 737 in the opposite direction. Their flight which was inbound from Milan, was on the final approach to Manchester International Airport, runway 24. The date was January 6th, 1995. They reported their sighting as being on the approach to Manchester, not over the city as many mistakenly believe. They reported their sighting to the CAA, who took over a year to investigate this case. The time for the sighting was logged at 1848, so therefore it was dark. Much has been discussed about this case but I do not want to go over old ground in this article. Instead I want to focus on a witness who claims to have seen something of similar a shape but not the same size on the same night. Mark Lloyd a resident of Gatley, near Stockport, claims to have seen a large triangular craft on the exact date as the pilots, although he reports his sighting as being at between 1530 and 1600. This is indeed a fascinating case. Why? He claims the object he saw was at 4000 feet, exactly the same height as the pilots reported. He claimed he watched this object performing forward and reverse movements and claimed it dropped occasionally like a falling leaf. He watched it fly over or near Manchester Airport. He says he watched it through a gap in the clouds. This is the case of the ever increasing UFO. Memories fade as we get older but in Mark's case, they grow much better. At this time of day, it would be starting to go dark, yet Mark manages to recall and draw with so much detail, his sighting. I have spoken to Mark on many occasions and he is still coming into the cinema where I work to show me pictures of his sighting. Firstly, we need to go back to the beginning to show how this case has developed into a fairy tale of epic proportions. Back in August of 1996, I organised a UFO Conference to coincide with the release of the film Independence Day. Basically the day consisted of four films, Close Encounters Of The Third Kind, Communion, Fire In The Sky and finishing with ID4. We also had three guest speakers, Jenny Randles, Peter Hough and Steven Mera. The event was a success, with over 300 hundred people attending. A couple of weeks before the event, I was approached by Mark Lloyd. He showed me a rough drawing of what he claimed to have seen back in January 1995. He went on to tell me how he had not reported this sighting to anyone until after the CAA report, a year later because he was threatened not to. He only came clean because the CAA report was published and so he felt he could not be threatened as this was common knowledge. This is where the story gets bizarre. I asked him who had threatened him. He told me that he woke up one night and a man in a black trench coat was stood next to his bed. He says his girl friend did not wake up. He got out of bed. I asked him what this man wanted. Mark reported that the man did not utter a word. He opened his coat and showed Mark a pump action shot gun tucked by his waist. Mark stated to me that the man was American. I asked as to whether it was the accent that made Mark think this. He stated it was not as the man in black did not speak at any time during this meeting. I asked how he knew he was American. Mark replied=85.. "he was wearing a baseball cap." Instantly alarm bells rang. What was this logic Mark was trying to pass onto me. The man then just disappeared out of Mark's house. Mark then came back a few days later and said he had something to tell me, which was a secret, although he told a work colleague the details, along with everybody he came across. It was another night, he was woken up by a Grey alien at the end of his bed. This alien had red eyes but no legs and seemed to be hovering above the ground. The alien did not do anything and once again his girlfriend slept throughout the whole thing. Mark asked me if I would let him speak at the conference. I told him that we were fully booked and on a tight schedule, which was absolutely true. The conference date came and was a success. Mark managed to talk to Jenny Randles and Peter Hough, although what they made of his case, I do not know. He had brought in a computerised image to show people at the conference. I never heard much from Mark after that for a good few months. He then kept calling into the cinema where I work. His drawing had been updated. He stated the object he had seen was the size of an aircraft carrier, he had previously told me it was the size of Wembley Stadium. We held a Men In Black Conference to coincide with the release of the film, this time we had Jenny Randles, Paulinne DelCour-Min, Tim Matthews and Eric Morris. Mark did not show up at this conference. However shortly after, Mark came into the cinema and asked to speak to Eric Morris and myself. He claimed that he was being followed and that people were watching him and invited Eric and myself to his home to show us the proof. Just before we went, he explained how BT vans -how original - were watching his house. A van pulled up outside a Chinese Take-Away opposite the cinema and Mark stated that this was watching him. In reality it was someone who was just nipping into collect their meal. They drove off without even looking at us. When we got to Mark's house, he pointed to a tree opposite and said that was where the red light from the camera that was watching him was. We could see no light and he told us it had probably been removed. He then pointed to a house opposite his and said someone was watching him at that very moment. We looked through binoculars and it turned out to be a plant in the window. He then said that there were men in the trees watching us. Eric and myself looked but could not see anything - not that we expected to. The three of us went to the end of the garden and had a closer look at the trees, which were situated in a neighbours garden. Mark told us he could see the whites of their eyes. In reality this was just daylight shining through the dark undergrowth. Mark told us he was no longer interested in UFO's as it had ruined his life, yet on his bedside locker, there was a pile of UFO magazines. We left his house and told Mark to keep in touch with us. There are some details I cannot print here but some drastic event occurred after this in relation to Mark. I never saw Mark for a long period after that. He called into the cinema and said he was feeling a lot better. He left and I never saw him again until about three months ago. He came in and told me he had been to New York. He reported that he had been on an aircraft carrier and had told the Captain that the object he had seen back in 1995, was 10 times bigger than his ship -this thing certainly grows. I asked Mark, how no one else had not reported this giant sized craft in the sky. He recounts that there was one witness stood behind him on the night=85.a man wearing a trilby hat - was this Arthur Daley doing a bit of ducking and diving. ( Arthur Daley is a TV character) Mark could not understand what I was getting at when I suggested to him that thousands at the airport would have seen this object. He told me that when he was in Terminal One Lounge, you only have a limited view of the runway. He said he had noticed this when he was waiting for the American Airlines flight to New York, he could see his plane parked at the pier. The view from Terminal One Lounge is limited but then so must Mark's memory must have been. American Airlines fly from Terminal Two and have done since March 1993, when it opened. Oooopssss, its the small things that trip these people up. However, I pressed on. What about all the people on the top level car park , always a handful of people plane spotting can be found here. What about the people in the control tower, the people in the planes, the people working at the Airport, in fact any damn person within a 15 mile vicinity. All irrelevant according to Mark. We are talking conspiracies of all conspiracies, all Cheshire and Manchester were in on this one. Mark was stood on Styal Road, Gatley, when he saw the huge craft. He jumped out of his car and watched this object for over twenty minutes, manoeuvring in the sky. Styal Road, although in the village of Gatley, is very busy, yet no one else reported anything. Mark was stood on the pavement looking towards the corner of Lomond Road, which leads to Wythenshawe. From his view point, it is nearly 2 miles to the centre of the runway at Manchester Airport. >From here, it is easy to see planes heading towards runway 24 when they are landing at this end. >From Mark's ever increasing detailed image, I plotted a line from this via the A-Z of Manchester. Originally he claimed the object was over the centre of Manchester Airport. Then he changed it to being over the end of Runway 06. His final version is that it was actually over Knutsford, nearly 8 miles away. If this object was over Knutsford and looked huge when he saw it, this would have made it nearly three miles across. The UFO's from the Independence Day film are back. I refuse to reproduce his picture here as this is so ridiculous, however I have reproduced a map of the area. (not here folks) I asked him how could no one else have seen the object. He tried to explain that no one walks around looking at the sky. I reminded him that Knutsford would have been in the shadow of this, even though it would have been getting dark. Potentially millions would have seen this object yet, yet not one other person reported it. Only Arthur Daley saw it but he could not be traced. Mark got agitated when I asked him questions. I said if he wanted people to listen to him, then he had to be prepared for questions. I gave him a sighting form, which he never filled out. He told me he had been in the Control Tower at the airport and spoke to the Chief Air Traffic Controller. He had just walked in, no security stopped him. Would you fly from Manchester knowing this? He asked me not to contact the Tower, as they may send people to question him - they must have forgot to do that on the day. Mark has now produced a new image, complete with pyramid and thousands of lights. The colour has changed from black to the bluish grey featured in the "Russian UFO Crash." This colour was to help it blend when it went invisible. He said that no one could make a model like the object he had seen. I told him to look at Star Wars, ID4 and many other science fiction films. He is now trying to get a model - that no one can make - into=85..the Millennium Dome. I challenged him as to why his original report was so different from his latest epic. I wanted to know why after all this time had he chosen to reveal that this object could become invisible. He claimed he did say this. I'm sure I would have remembered this if he had told me. Mark has been trying to get as much publicity for this case as possible and unfortunately one thing keeps cropping up=85 money. He wants to sell his pictures to people across the land. He told me he'd sold one to the woman featured in his picture of the area. Basically he had taken a picture of where he allegedly saw the object and had someone put a computerised "UFO" he saw onto it. The woman was so impressed that she bought a picture. He tells me he hopes to return to America this year to lecture about his case as many people are interested. America, be warned. This case is so obviously a farce. Mark cannot offer one tiny shred of evidence to support his alleged sighting. I hoped that this case had died a death but I fear now that Mark is on another publicity drive. I fear we will hear more from him, not less. I know he has spoken to other researchers who may not be aware of the details. I warn you all, take a very wide berth from this case, do not let him use you to promote this totally imagined case. He has had his story featured in a number of local papers and also some now defunct UFO magazines. The Stockport Express pictured him dressed in a Hawaiian flowered shirt and sunglasses. The sighting was January=85hardly the weather for sunglasses=85 a poor reconstruction indeed. I recently managed to find Mark's original drawings. On his drawings, he lists the colours of the "object", which are totally different to what he is now saying. Mark is looking for conferences to reveal his case=85.any takers, lambs to the slaughter. Many people accuse British ufologists of being over sceptical. I think you can see from the above account that there are some "characters" who report over the top accounts. I have looked at this case for over three years and I have been very patient towards Mark, yet he never produced many of the things he said he would. This is why we are sceptical of many cases - not all. Whilst many people are very sincere about what they have seen, there are those who choose to change the details of their case, when they realise that they are not getting the publicity they seek. The problem with this, is the TV stations lap up people like this and this makes a joke of serious research. Alien's sell; planes and everyday objects don't. Rory Lushman.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 23 Re: Italian Sighting? From: Fabrizio Monaco <F.Monaco@stm.it> Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 17:18:10 +0100 Fwd Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 16:11:08 -0500 Subject: Re: Italian Sighting? >From: Diane Harrison <tkbnetw@fan.net.au> >To: UFO UpDates <updates@globalserve.net>, >Subject: Help Needed >Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 11:49:59 +1000 >Hi everyone >I need some help with a recent UFO sighting which took place in >Italy it was shown on Foxtel channel 37 >Time 5.30am on Thursday 18th 2 1999 >Program E FATTE VOSTRI >I have had a call from a viewer here in Australia that said the >UFO which appeared over Gaven Way, Via Gold Coast was the same >has the one seen in Italy. >Cigar Shape with a very light on the end. "Can some help verify >the Italian UFO footage". Hi everybody, I live in Rome (Italy). Please do not trust this program, it is only a way to debunk sightings and UFO researchers. Best Regards, Fabrizio Monaco CISETI International Coordinator
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 23 Re: On Jerry Black's Challenge to Strieber From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net> Date: Tue, 23 Feb 99 12:19:29 PST Fwd Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 16:21:11 -0500 Subject: Re: On Jerry Black's Challenge to Strieber >From: Keith Woodard <qwoodard@worldnet.att.net> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: Re: On Jerry Black's Challenge to Strieber >Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 11:43:53 -0800 >>>Fwd Date: Sun, 03 Jan 1999 15:01:48 -0500 >>>Subject: Jerry Black's Challenge To Whitley Strieber >That reminds me. I never saw what I considered Black's best >point addressed by anyone Keith and other listfolk: Here's another point to consider. In Breakthrough (1995) Whitley Strieber recounts a final interview he conducted with Robert Sarbacher, a physicist who before his death in 1986 spoke with me and several others about his alleged knowledge of crashed and recovered spacecraft, learned during the period he spent as a consultant to the Defense Department's Research and Development Board. Sarbacher, a scientist with undisputed credentials, provided me (as well as Bruce Maccabee and Stanton Friedman, in separate interviews) with only sketchy information reflecting his reported only indirect involvement in research on the crash materials. The word "Roswell," which I mentioned when I interviewed him in early 1985, rang no bells. Sarbacher seemed to know little about UFOs and crash lore. He acted puzzled even when I mentioned "Blue Book", whose meaning I had to explain to him. The Breakthrough account, however, has Sarbacher talking in detail about "that fabric we obtained at Roswell." Sarbacher here even says he examined it personally -- an allegation he specifically did not make when we spoke. What's most interesting, though, is that in Communion (1987) Strieber writes that Sarbacher "died a few days" before Strieber ever heard of him; thus, "I was unable to interview him." Jerry Clark
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 23 Re: A Poststructuralist Take On The UFO Phenomenon From: Robert Irving <RobIrving@aol.com> Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 13:01:10 EST Fwd Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 16:27:28 -0500 Subject: Re: A Poststructuralist Take On The UFO Phenomenon >Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 18:02:11 -0600 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >From: Michael Christol <mchristo@mindspring.com> >Subject: Re: A Poststructuralist Take On The UFO Phenomenon Michael, >Am I to assume then that when Dean states: 'to claim to have >seen a UFO, to have been abducted by aliens, or even to believe >those who say they have' constitutes 'a political act' because >it 'contests the status quo' - a status quo that is both >political and epistemological;' that to make a political >statment could be construed to 'violate the law of the land?' In >essence to become a 'political criminal?' >If this is so, then what do we surmise about the great men and >women of the past who, through great inventions, change the >'status quo' of accepted reality, and politically speaking: >'violate the law of the land?' <snip> >Maybe I have misinterpreted the above statement. If so, would >someone please show me where. Because nowhere in the review does anyone talk of violating laws in the strictly 'criminal' sense. When Max Ernst (or was it Marcel Duchamp?) described the meeting of two or more distinct realities on an unfamiliar plane as a criminal attack on our assumptions of nature, I don't think he was talking in terms of cops banging down the door. What Dean is saying, I hope (I've not read her paper), is that 'crazy', unevidenced and even erroneous ideas are useful just because they challenge the status quo. This is not illegal in most places. She uses 'political' in terms of 'policy', social agreement... status quo (& considering the etymology of 'policy' and 'state' you may have a point). The scientific heroes you mention are those whose ideas survived. Countless others have not. Dean might be arguing that we cannot expect the benefits of one without the other. Rob
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 23 Anal Probe Anyone? From: Sean Jones <tedric@tedric.demon.co.uk> Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 18:50:39 +0000 Fwd Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 16:30:18 -0500 Subject: Anal Probe Anyone? On a lighter note: 140 years we've been coming to earth, performing anal probes on the humans and erasing their memories and all we've really learnt is... ....one in 10 don't seem to mind. -- In an infinite universe infinitely anything is possible. Sean Jones Homepage--http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Zone/1745/index.htm UFO page--http://www.tedric.demon.co.uk/
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 23 Condon Report Now On Web From: Jorma Kosonen <unicab@laatikko.saunalahti.fi> Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 22:39:16 +0200 Fwd Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 16:43:10 -0500 Subject: Condon Report Now On Web For those not informed the Condon survey is now downloadable, (1400 pages...) The site is: <http://www.ncas.org/condon/~table of contents> Regards, Jorma Kosonen unicab@saunalahti.fi
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 23 London UFO Studies Meetings From: John Hayes <jhayes@cableinet.co.uk> Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 20:56:56 +0000 Fwd Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 18:04:32 -0500 Subject: London UFO Studies Meetings Dear Errol, I have been advised by Roy Lake of London UFO Studies that the Maxine Pearson lecture on 26th February has been postponed until 12th March due to illness. Roy will present a talk on the original date and the revised details are given below: 26th FEBRUARY London UFO Studies presents "A Talk by Roy Lake" Includes an open discussion with the public Venue: The United Reformed Church Hall, Upney Lane, Barking, Essex Speaker: Roy Lake Time: Doors open 7-30pm starts 8pm. Admission: Adults =A34.00, Children/OAPS =A32.00. Members =A32.00. Further details: Phone Roy Lake on 0181-270-9919 12th March London UFO Studies presents a MAXINE PEARSON Lecture on Remote Viewing & Mind Control. (As seen on BBC Television "The Big End") Venue: The United Reformed Church Hall, Upney Lane, Barking, Essex Speaker: Maxine Pearson Time: Doors open 7-30pm starts 8pm. Admission: Adults =A34.00, Children/OAPS =A32.00. Members =A32.00. Further details: Phone Roy Lake on 0181-270-9919 Regards, John Hayes jhayes@cableinet.co.uk webmaster@ufoinfo.com UFOINFO:- http://ufoinfo.com UFO Roundup:- http://ufoinfo.com/roundup/ Filer's Files:- http://ufoinfo.com/filer/ UFOICQ Australian UFO Reports and Experiences:- http://ufoinfo.com/ufoicq/
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 23 Re: Condon Report Now On Web From: Don Allen <dona@totcon.com> Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 16:16:15 -0700 Fwd Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 18:35:08 -0500 Subject: Re: Condon Report Now On Web >Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 22:39:16 +0200 >To: updates@globalserve.net >From: Jorma Kosonen <unicab@laatikko.saunalahti.fi> >Subject: Condon Report Now On Web >For those not informed the Condon survey is now >downloadable, (1400 pages...) >The site is: >http://www.ncas.org/condon/~table>http://www.ncas.org/condon/~table of contents> That will give a file not found error. Try http://www.ncas.org/condon>http://www.ncas.org/condon/
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 23 Re: NBC-Video 'Confirmation' Available? From: Michael Christol <mchristo@mindspring.com> Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 17:21:27 -0600 Fwd Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 18:40:40 -0500 Subject: Re: NBC-Video 'Confirmation' Available? >From: Minna Laajala <hiekkape@saunalahti.fi> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: Re: NBC-Video 'Confirmation' Available? >Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 23:04:04 +0200 >Hey everybody on the list! >I=B4m looking for two items: >1) The movie called 'Communion' >2) This NBC`s document called "Confirmation...." >Can anyone of you help me with this? I know I=B4m not the only one >in Finland looking for these items, but at least I could tell to >some of them where to contact. (=3D aliens not included...) >Greatfully thanking >Minna L. >hiekkape@saunalahti.fi Finding those two movies/documentaries, is not the hard part. I have both of them, along with over 300 video tapes in my collection of UFO related material. However, I cannot reproduce it in any format other than NTSC at this time. I would suggest you contact Mike Farrell at: <mikefarr@midcoast.com.au> or write him at: P.O.Box 2526 Port Macquarie New South Wales 2444 Australia Director of Project GUFONE '98 (Global UFO Newsvideo Exchange) http://www.fan.net.au/~tkbnetw/mikes.htm http://www.ufor.asn.au He has the facilities to make these and other video tapes in the European format as well as most other formats, as I understand it. REgards, Mike
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 24 Nightly Alien Encounters? From: Jorma Kosonen <unicab@laatikko.saunalahti.fi> Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 01:31:20 +0200 Fwd Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 04:33:16 -0500 Subject: Nightly Alien Encounters? NIGHTLY ALIEN ENCOUNTERS? It was some weeks ago that I read transcribed lectures of a well known German, Rudolf Steiner, given in Helsinki, Finland in 1913. The lectures were later published as: 'Spiritual Background of Bhagavad Ghita'. The book consists of a series of spiritual lectures held by Mr. Steiner in Helsinki at the beginning of the century. They were saved by stenography from German language and later printed as book: 'Die okkulten Grundlagen der Bhagavad Gita' ; (3rd ed.1962) A passage of his text had my attention as it straightly seems to be in context with certain kind of nightly encounter stories. I will return to that in a moment. Mr. Rudolf Steiner was one of the most famous European culture anthropologists of our century as well as a known spiritualist and scientific researcher of human spiritual history. Maybe his most famous life work, however, has been in developing teaching methodologies known as Rudolf Steiner Schools. His spiritual dimensions were less known in publicity. In his fifth Helsinki lecture Mr. Steiner profoundly describes the differences of nature of being asleep and being awake to lay basis of correct understanding of Bhagavad Ghita (holy book of hinduism) birth history, as well as essentials of understanding the book. Mr. Steiner states that sleep is necessary to humans as a renewing force for spirit. What may happen when reining in this power is described as follows: ------ '...Now suppose, that somebody succeeded in - and it some-times really happens - reining in these forces [that renew a sleeping human] ...without letting them do their task. It then happens - and really there are cases - just like it happens when a sleeping human reins in the forces that normally would operate as builders of cerebral structure. This may happen, a human may have experiences of being a kind of awake when in fact this is not the case, being unable to move his limbs and have no observations of his surroundings. However, he is awake. ....This type of moments are favourable for us to beam forces consumed by our brains to spiritual [clair]voyance. Then, it is possible for us - being non-moving just like when sleeping - to have a look on worlds of spirits. This was the case also in 17th and 18th century when people a kind of stopped these builder forces. For a moment, he did not allow these forces to operate and this is when he temporarily became clairvoyant. What did he see ? He saw the powers being influencing at his brain from spiritual worlds, he was able to see forces preparing him from about 15th century to 19th century so as to prepare 20th century people to step into the spiritual world. There has always been persons who had such experiences. And those experiences were upsetting, extremely impressive. There has always been people who had a momentary feeling on the existence of this spiritual world that made something special exist in his external world, something that mankind had never seen before. This new entity was in sinus of this finer organ. People becoming clairvoyant in the manner described were able to see spiritual beings at work for developing the human's system. Hence, we have made a characterization on clairvoyance from one point of view. Thus we may have views on a new spiritual life. If some era of mankind will release forces preparing people for future, these forces may become observable for a spiritual sight...' ------ He was Rudolf Steiner in Helsinki as early as 1913. This might rise some questions: 1. Is Mr. Steiner's sense of words to be interpreted as if those beings observed between sleep and awake have been preparing human's mental development for future really ? As it is well known, several abduction stories refer at some kind of message on such or similar. 2. Is Mr. Steiner's description a sleep paralysis or perhaps a hypnagogic state, upon which some people have seen strange shapes ? It is more than easy to see context with nightly encounters. Hence, one may remark medicine during the second decennium of our century having been able to point out an explanation for this kind of mental observations. (In fact, Mr. Steiner speaks about frontal lobe.) Be it noted that hallucinations are partly ascribed to temporal lobe epilepsy; this has scientific verification by modern medicine. We may see that Mr. Steiner's vision might ask two separate items: Firstly, he put a person's individual spiritual growth to be essential of one's ability to see (something that most people are not able to see even though they try to be concentrated). I.e. is this unique ability a high level spiritual gift worth sensitizing for everyone ? Secondly, one might ask the role of transformed state of perception in observations and misobservations of this kind. How the alleged original and realistic shapes are ascribed to transformation of perception ? Is some transformation the real key for nightly alien encounters ? ------------ The short citation is from the Finnish translation of the book. An English translation is probably available in library nearest you. Jorma Kosonen unicab@saunalahti.fi
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 24 Re: A Poststructuralist Take On The UFO Phenomenon From: Michael Christol <mchristo@mindspring.com> Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 18:37:41 -0600 Fwd Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 04:46:07 -0500 Subject: Re: A Poststructuralist Take On The UFO Phenomenon >From: Robert Irving <RobIrving@aol.com> >Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 13:01:10 EST >To: updates@globalserve.net >Subject: Re: A Poststructuralist Take On The UFO Phenomenon >>Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 18:02:11 -0600 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >>From: Michael Christol <mchristo@mindspring.com> >>Subject: Re: A Poststructuralist Take On The UFO Phenomenon >Michael, >>Maybe I have misinterpreted the above statement. If so, would >>someone please show me where. >Because nowhere in the review does anyone talk of violating laws >in the strictly 'criminal' sense. When Max Ernst (or was it >Marcel Duchamp?) described the meeting of two or more distinct >realities on an unfamiliar plane as a criminal attack on our >assumptions of nature, I don't think he was talking in terms of >cops banging down the door. What Dean is saying, I hope (I've >not read her paper), is that 'crazy', unevidenced and even >erroneous ideas are useful just because they challenge the >status quo. This is not illegal in most places. She uses >'political' in terms of 'policy', social agreement... status quo >(& considering the etymology of 'policy' and 'state' you may >have a point). Grin... Well Rob, what is said publicly and what is intimated, in some cases can be the same thing. In others it may verge on fantasy. Grin...I like the way you said: "This is not illegal 'IN MOST PLACES.'" <g> Thus you leave open the possibility that it very well may be in other places. <G> This was why I originally posted my questions. As you know there has always been rumours of "impending danger," and in some cases, it seems physical harm or even death has occurred to UFO researchers/investigators, as well as others who just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. An example of this is John Ford. I have known him for about eight years and he has shared a lot of information with me as it was unfolding as far as the alleged crashes on Long Island are concerned. I find it extremely interesting that when he would not back away from the South Haven Park incident, he and his LIUFON Group, were harassed by the local police for passing out leaflets regarding anyone who might have seen anything dealing with the alleged crash in the park. I was given the names of several of the witnesses and I called and talked with each of them. They verified much of what John was saying. I even wrote in protest to the Long Island Police Chief about the way John and his group were being treated. I received a reply, which I still have in my data base. Eventually, we are told that John was part of a conspiracy against Republican John Powell, and an attempt to "kill him," by irradiating his toothpaste by adding small amounts of radium to it. Give me a break...It would take years to achieve this if even then. It might have eventually made him ill, if John could have intercepted every tube of tooth paste John Powell ever bought or used. So, they take John, claim he is "mentally ill," and stick him in a mental hospital, so he cannot continue to bombard the media and the internet with his beliefs in regard to what happened on Long Island. I personally don't think John was dangerous. I think he was set up. He was sometimes paranoid and always eccentric, but that does not make him a "murderer". So, in at least this case, I can see where challenging the "established reality" can and probably did result in someone being taken out of society so they could not continue to foster such "preposterous ideas!" John Ford did indeed produce a "political act", when he forced the Politicians and Law Enforcement officials to take notice of him and his group and their claims of "official cover-up" on Long Island. Not only that, but I have been unable to locate one of his right hand associates within LIUFON, Brian Levins, who has disappeared from his last known residence and phone number. This occurred in 1997, I think. I have come to the conclusion that he may in fact be dead! He and I were very close associates. We exchanged video tapes, files and the latest information occurring in ufology. He had a TV Program on Long Island, with Kenny Lloyd, called "UFOs With Levins And Lloyd", a local access cable program on the Island. After I could not locate Brian, I called Kenny Lloyd and ask if he knew where Brian was, and he gave me the impression that he hadn't seen him in several months. He was not the least concerned when I told him I had been unable to locate Brian. That seems quite strange to me, considering the two of them worked TV Show a year or more. >The scientific heroes you mention are those whose ideas >survived. Countless others have not. Dean might be arguing that >we cannot expect the benefits of one without the other. >Rob Dean, in my opinion did not encourage us to "push the edges" of our reality. In essence Dean was telling me: "Be content with what you can perceive with your five physical senses. Don't make waves." Now that is just my take on it Rob. But some may say I am a trouble maker and just looking for an excuse to cause trouble. <G> In fact, I definitely encourage all rational humans to "push the boundaries of their present state of reality." Expand the Conscious balloon and become one of the "great" names in our history. I am comfortable with the status quo until some experience presents itself to me, to make me aware that there is something "more"!
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 24 OBLOS or 'Mobile Cophased Laser Weapon System'? From: Leanne Martin <leanne_martin@hotmail.com> Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 17:05:19 PST Fwd Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 04:53:43 -0500 Subject: OBLOS or 'Mobile Cophased Laser Weapon System'? Bruce Maccabee & List, [Bruce's mailbox is full & 'bouncing'--ebk] *** Forwarded from The Keith Baskerfield Network list. Would anyone have any feedback about this proposed explanation for 'glowing orange balls'? It sounds a bit far-fetched to but someone better qualified in optical physics may know . . . Regards, Leanne ];-) Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 11:31:59 +1100 To: Aussiepost@listbot.com From: Mike Farrell <mikefarr@midcoast.com.au> Subject: Re: OBLOS or "Mobile Cophased Laser Weapon System"? The Keith Basterfield Network Australasia - http://www.fan.net.au/~tkbnetw ____________________________________________ To: Mike Farrell <mikefarr@midcoast.com.au From: Barry Taylor <stingray@nor.com.au> Subject: Re: OBLOS or "mobile cophased laser weapon system"? Hi gang, Don't get too excited by the orange balls of light in the sky. This may very well be part of a new weapons testing program developed here in the USA being tested in your area. ---------- This is like saying that all the strobing and flashing white lights we see in the sky are Iridiun Satellite Flares.( Got 2 Flares on tape last 3 nights, similar time and VERY bright) Take note of it, but do not consider it is the answer to all the orange "lights" around. The 3 types of orange UFO's that I have seen and videoed are certainly not Laser generated, they were real UFO's. They may be working on a "mobile cophased laser weapon system" but why try it out over some of our largest Cities and Country Towns, unless they either using it as a "scape goat" for the real UFO activity. Or gauging community reaction to see if they can fool mass populations. Either way, it would take a small task force to set up equip- ment that would have to be bigger than a hand held Laser. The orange UFO's seen here have all been low altitude, slow flying. Many have come from, and gone beyond ground based line of sight. Which would mean that the lasers source would have to be situated at altitude. There seems to be an increase of this type of sighting lately, the powers to be would want to defuse the UFO aspect. But the fact remains, they still show up. Barry. e-mail stingray@nor.com.au U.F.O. Home Page URL http://www.nor.com.au/users/stingray/ ORIGINAL MESSAGE: _____________________________________ At 10:05 AM 2/22/99 +1100, you wrote: Message from official source in USA: ******************************************************** Hi Networkers A response to the orange balls of light around Australia ******************************************************** Don't get too excited by the orange balls of light in the sky. This may very well be part of a new weapons testing program developed here in the USA being tested in your area. It is a mobile cophased laser weapon system designed for ground to air defense. (I have talked with the people who developed the software to operate it). A hot glowing plasma ball of energy is created ONLY where the beams intersect. The beams themselves cannot be seen with the naked eye. It can just appear and move at fantastic speeds in any direction without making any noise other than a mild hissing noise at very close range due to the expanding air molecules within the plasma ball itself, and then just disappear. It will appear as a glowing 3-D image from the ground. A newer air to air system is also being tested now as well. I know it would be a lot more fun if these were real ufo vehicles, but those are a bit more rare. Hope the information helps. --------------------------------------
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 24 Re: On Jerry Black's Challenge to Strieber From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net> Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 20:05:45 -0600 Fwd Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 05:05:53 -0500 Subject: Re: On Jerry Black's Challenge to Strieber >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net> >Subject: Re: On Jerry Black's Challenge to Strieber >Date: Tue, 23 Feb 99 12:19:29 PST <snip> >The Breakthrough account, however, has Sarbacher talking in >detail about "that fabric we obtained at Roswell." Sarbacher >here even says he examined it personally -- an allegation he >specifically did not make when we spoke. >What's most interesting, though, is that in Communion (1987) >Strieber writes that Sarbacher "died a few days" before Strieber >ever heard of him; thus, "I was unable to interview him." >Jerry Clark Jerry, Thanks for the info re Strieber's two vastly varying views of his "interview" with Sarbacher. Good find! Now, does this mean that Strieber is no Pope, or that Pope is no Strieber? Or that Sarbacher is no Corso, or that Corso is no Sarbacher? Or that...never mind! Dennis
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 24 Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality From: Stephen MILES Lewis <elfis@io.com> Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 21:51:30 -0500 Fwd Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 06:43:49 -0500 Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net> >Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 21:06:17 -0500 >Fwd Date: Sun, 07 Feb 1999 07:49:40 -0500 >Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >>From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com> >>Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 14:16:15 EST >>To: updates@globalserve.net >>Subject: Re: Abduction - The Issue Of Reality >>However, before this goes much further, we should all retreat to >>John Fuller's Interrupted Journey in which Betty, while >>recounting Barney's belief that he had seen a flying saucer >>through the binoculars said, "And I laughed and asked him if he >>had watched Twilight Zone recently on TV..." (page 144 hardback) >Good catch, Kevin! In all the discussions of this I've read, >nobody but you seems to have noticed that. >Greg Sandow --- OK-so on the subject of determining whether someone has seen a pop culture image . . . . Previously different UFO UpDaters had suggested calling upon Forensics for help in investigating reports of alien abduction. Did anyone of you list members out there catch the New Detectives show on Discovery Channel? It featured Dr. Lawrence Farwell PhD who has developed eeg style brain wave activity software which "recognizes" the brain's unique signature response to "recognized" images stored in the brain as 'memory'. This technology, if proven reliable, could be used in a number of different approaches to the study of ufo close encounter investigations. I've not found a web page for him or his work but have found these refs below: http://truth.idbsu.edu/polygraph/Farwell.html this site details his in court testimony, however, the court saw fit to not accept his testimony as valid. See also: http://truth.idbsu.edu/polygraph/polylaw.html and the Journal of Credibility Assessment & Witness Psychology: http://truth.idbsu.edu/jcaawp/default.html or you can buy an article on the subject here: http://www.indigo-net.com/IOL/Sommaires/int93/int220.htm http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/ren_productions/apr1997.htm#4 Computerized Brain-Scan Technology A new forensic tool developed by Lawrence A. Farwell, Ph.D., President of Human Brain Research Laboratory, Inc., Burke, Virginia, shows great promise in the identification of criminals and those who fail to tell the truth. Government and security professionals may someday make use of this technology to verify the identity of authorized employees, job applicants, emigrants and known government agents. Although fingerprints and DNA matching are extremely accurate methods used by law enforcement professionals in the identification of suspects, accurate, usable samples are not always available when they are needed. In addition, uncontaminated DNA samples are only available in 2% of criminal cases where DNA processing is permitted. Farwell�s Brain Fingerprinting technique is based on what suspects and subjects �know� to be the absolute true. This is because Brain Fingerprinting relies on the memory of the suspect and their response to questions asked and/or pictures shown to them on a computer monitor. Their brain response to these images is what verifies what they know to be true. For example, a number of suspects were connected to a computer via a series of sensors embedded in a head piece that is placed on their heads. As a series of words, phrases and/or pictures are flashed across a screen of a monitor, the computer measures the suspect�s immediate, unhesitating mental response to each stimuli. The responses are then retained, processed and mapped within the computer. A report is then printed out and/or displayed on the computer monitor for the test administrator to view. Using the Farwell Brain Fingerprinting method in a murder investigation, the test administrator might show a picture of the murder weapon, the victim or the crime scene, mixed among other unrelated images, to each suspect via a computer monitor. Each suspect�s electrical brain response would then be measured and recorded as each image is presented. If their response suddenly changes for one or more of the images, their response is noted. Because the immediate mental response of the suspect is involuntary, the suspect cannot consciously prevent their initial reaction. This then either confirms or disproves that the subject had anything to do with the murder. --- SMiles --- Stephen MILES Lewis Writer, Designer, Producer, Editor & INFORMATIONALIST E.L.F. INFESTED SPACES - Journal of Possible Paradigms mailto:elfis@io.com ELFIS OnLine : http://www.elfis.net ELFIS Archive : http://www.elfis.net/ELFOL0/ELFOLARC.html ELFIS Links :
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 24 Re: A Poststructuralist Take On The UFO Phenomenon From: Robert Young <YoungBob2@aol.com> Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 22:25:33 EST Fwd Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 16:19:48 -0500 Subject: Re: A Poststructuralist Take On The UFO Phenomenon From: Michael Christol <mchristo@mindspring.com> Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 18:02:11 -0600 Fwd Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 07:57:49 -0500 Subject: Re: A Poststructuralist Take On The UFO Phenomenon <snip> >Am I to assume then that when Dean states: 'to claim to have >seen a UFO, to have been abducted by aliens, or even to believe >those who say they have' constitutes 'a political act' because >it 'contests the status quo' - a status quo that is both >political and epistemological;' that to make a political >statement could be construed to 'violate the law of the land?' In >essence to become a 'political criminal?' >If this is so, then what do we surmise about the great men and >women of the past who, through great inventions, change the >'status quo' of accepted reality, and politically speaking: '>violate the law of the land?' >Does this make such people as: Thomas Edison, Alexander Graham >Bell, Nikola Tesla, Orvil and Wilber Wright, Madam Curie, Jonas >Salk, and other great names criminals because they 'challanged' >and 'prevailed' over the 'accepted reality of their times?' As I recall from public education theory which has been developed over the last 60 years or so, there are several types of people who will respond differently to new information: The Innovators: a small percentage (<5% or so?, I forget the exact numbers) who first develop new ideas. The Early Adopters (Maybe 25% or so of the population, who are quick to pick up new ideas and adopt them. The Late Adopters (Maybe 50% of the population, who may adopt a new idea over the next 10 years or more) Forgot what this group's called (25% of the population, who will probably never adopt these new ideas, in their lifetimes. Bob Young
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 24 The Real Issue..... From: Jack Solomon <pan@mcmail.com> Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 11:42:54 -0000 Fwd Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 17:11:14 -0500 Subject: The Real Issue..... Why are they here....? Every day I recieve half a million accounts describing UFOs of one form or another but what is the latest thinking on the undercurrent behind the phenomenon, i.e. the "abductees"..... beyond the obvious forms of imediate discomfort from such a traumatic event-how do they "feel" about the experience? What is the message imparted to them about the aliens presence here on Earth....? Personally I think we can look at the avalanche of evidence to take it as read that the authorities have been keeping a good number of secrets about this phenomenon. I think the smart ufologist needs to move beyond this line of - dare I say -"dated" approach and second guess the next move. Or even series of moves. In that way, better mentally prepare themselves for what the future might hold Jak aka pan@mcmail.com
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 24 Re: Condon Report Now On Web From: Jorma Kosonen <unicab@laatikko.saunalahti.fi> Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 13:15:40 +0200 Fwd Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 17:01:47 -0500 Subject: Re: Condon Report Now On Web >Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 16:16:15 -0700 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >From: Don Allen <dona@totcon.com> >Subject: Re: Condon Report Now On Web >>Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 22:39:16 +0200 >>To: updates@globalserve.net >>From: Jorma Kosonen <unicab@laatikko.saunalahti.fi> >>Subject: Condon Report Now On Web >>For those not informed the Condon survey is now >>The site is: >>http://www.ncas.org/condon/~table>http://www.ncas.org/condon/~table of >contents> >That will give a file not found error. Try >http://www.ncas.org/condon>http://www.ncas.org/condon/ >instead. Yes! The error is because the link name string was cut from '..of contents' by the server program. I.e. the highlighted and underlined string was shortened by the server modifier routine. Regards, Jorma
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 24 Major UFO Flap in Italy 02-23-99 From: Maurizio Baiata <mbalien@tin.it> Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 16:42:39 +0100 Fwd Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 17:34:57 -0500 Subject: Major UFO Flap in Italy 02-23-99 Dear Sirs, The magazine "Notiziario UFO" is the leading italian magazine of UFO research and investigation. I'm submitting below information regarding the wave of UFO sightings occurring on the evening of 23 February in Italy. Best regards, Maurizio Baiata Editor of "Notiziario UFO" ----- PRESS RELEASE The objects were UFOs, not Venus and Jupiter Further to the consistent wave of UFO sightings in several central northern Italian regions that were reported on 23 February to the editorial staff of "Notiziario UFO", the editor of the monthly magazine of UFO research and investigation states as follows: The outbreak of sightings, which occurred around 7 PM in two different towns of the Venetian area and were noticed simultaneously in Bologna, Turin, San Giovanni Valdarno, Cuneo, Turin, Venice, Genoa, Ravenna, Novara, Pescara, Gualdo Tadino, Lucca and Rome, came to a halt just before 9 PM. It has been a significant and long lasting phenomenon. Most of the eye-witnesses saw two very bright lights in the sky, at varying altitudes and different in size, stationary or slowly passing by, at times coupled together and intermitently lit up, while others described them as geometric formations totally different from a planetary phenomenon and mainly hovering at low altitude. In Novara, two lights headed towards Invorio, stopped for about 30 minutes and, right after, flew in the direction of Gozzano. As the switchboards of police stations were jammed by thousands of alarmed phone calls, several astronomical observations explained the phenomenon as an unusual conjunction between Jupiter and Venus and some even mentioned Saturn. Among the sightings reported to "Notiziario UFO", primarily contradicting the statement is Mr. Filippo Bigazzi's, from San Giovanni Valdarno, who noticed and videoed, in the presence of his relatives, two stationary lights which intermittently appeared and disappeared. Meanwhile at 7.20 PM in Ravenna, Mr. Stefano Matteucci, observed by telescope a three lights formation, with atop a darker square shaped object. Another video was shot in Venice by Mr. Federico Provoleri who caught a bright moving object. Interestingly enough, the editorial staff here was informed that the military bases of Istrana and Tessera, Veneto, were kept on the alert. Many reports were confirmed by video-tapes which will later be analyzed by the technical experts of our magazine. The UFO flap of 23 February takes its place within a context of a sudden intense series of sightings all over Italy, occurring first in October '98 and reported again and again through the month of February, characterized by constant weekly phone calls. -----
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 24 Re: Pope On A Rope From: Andy Roberts <Brigantia@compuserve.com> Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 12:45:33 -0500 Fwd Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 17:39:45 -0500 Subject: Re: Pope On A Rope >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net> >>Subject: Re: Pope On A Rope >>Date: Sun, 21 Feb 99 11:59:46 PST >>To: ufoupdates@globalserve.net >I rest my case. I think we are not -- I am trying to be >charitable here -- dealing with someone whose thinking can >exactly be characterized as nuanced. In the real world persons >shade the truth for all kinds of reasons, good and bad. Shading >the truth in a particular instance so as not to subject oneself >to embarrassment or ridicule is among the most common,practiced >by all sorts of otherwise honorable and truthful individuals. Yes they do, and in what passes for the 'real' world - ie where individuals are not claiming exotic interactions with strange beings, that's just how it is. But if people are not telling the entire truth about experiences which have a somewhat dubious reality status then I still think it is reasonable that we treat _all_ their information, unless fully evidenced, with care. That you are obviously prepared not to speaks volumes Jerome. >In the two cases we are discussing -- that of somebody here >called "Popey" (Nick Pope to the rest of us) and that of Peter >Rojcewicz (no known insulting nickname available) -- we are >dealing with persons who shaded the truth for the reasons >stated above. Unless we find evidence that Pope and Rojcewicz >have engaged in a pattern of chronic lying, no one except the >self-righteous crusader like Andy Roberts will draw larger >negative conclusions. Well that's not strictly true Jerome. I think it's safe to say that in UK ufology most people are highly critical of Pope for his jiggery pokery wth this 'abduction' experience. That, coupled with the fact that his general ufological knowledge is, shall we say 'thin' (read his history in 'Open Minds....') makes anything he says - in mine and many other people's opinions - somewhat dubious. >This, in fact, was the point I made in my first posting. >Everything Roberts has done so far simply confirms the >suspicion I had all alo ng: he's out heretic-hunting, and >reason, fairness, and proportion be damned. Heretic hunting can be fun, it's true. But in Nick Pope's case all any of us want is for him to supply information to back up his claims and allegations. Not much to ask for as a ufologist eh Jerome? Happy Trails Andy
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 24 Black's Interesting Offer to Maccabee From: Glenn Joyner <infohead@airmail.net> Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 12:55:04 -0600 Fwd Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 17:45:48 -0500 Subject: Black's Interesting Offer to Maccabee Greetings, EBK and List Members: I have seen several responses to Jerry Black's open letter to Whitley Strieber, and have printed and forwarded them to him. I'm sure he will appreciate your comments. One early commentator to that piece was Bruce Maccabee. Jerry has dictated and asked me to post for him a response to Mr. Maccabee's comments. Glenn ----- An Open Letter to Bruce Maccabee From Jerry Black February, 1999 During the next 90 days, Mr. Maccabee, I will be placing my final report on the Ed Walters Gulf Breeze sightings on my Internet website. I will be discussing, at length, all of the main issues of the Ed Walters case. I will show anyone and everyone why this case has been proven conclusively to be a hoax. So at this time I will respond only briefly to your three-page reply to my review of Whitley Strieber's case. Early in my review of Mr. Whitley Strieber's books, I noticed, in the book, Communion, that you helped Mr. Strieber with certain portions of his manuscript. Obviously, at that particular time, you would have no way of knowing, for sure, whether Mr. Strieber's claims in his book, Communion, were valid or not. Yet, you certainly had no reservations whatsoever in lending your name to the acknowledgments section of the book. It seems like your track record, Mr. Maccabee, for the last ten years or so, certainly is not a very good one. We first have the Guardian case, which you supported on national television, that was proven to be a hoax by one of your own people in the MUFON organization, Mr. Tom Theofanous. Then you supported the Ed Walters Gulf Breeze case, which likewise has been proven, beyond a shadow of a doubt, to be a hoax. (I will demonstrate this to all interested parties in my report which will be forthcoming in the next 90 days.) Then you loaned your name to the acknowledgment section of Mr. Strieber, and helped him with portions of his manuscript for Communion, which would indicate to most people that you are a supporter of Mr. Strieber's case. Certainly, while the jury is out on the case of Mr. Whitley Strieber, it is definitely a questionable case, at best. So it appears, Mr. Maccabee, that during the last ten years you are on record as supporting very dubious cases, or, at the least, in the case of Whitley Strieber, very questionable cases. Before my final review of Ed Walters' Gulf Breeze sightings comes out in the next three months, I would appreciate it if you would show the people on the Internet exactly where I have ever said that witnesses to the same thing that Ed Walters photographed were deluded, part of a conspiracy along with Ed and family, or were simply in it for the publicity. I have never stated that, either in print, or verbally in any tapes I have sent to you or to anyone else, Mr. Maccabee. So, please, let's try to be honest. Others may have said that, but not I. What I have said, and will continue to say, is that anyone else's testimony to the fact that they saw an object similar to that Ed Walters claims to have seen, or photographed an object similar to those that Ed Walters claims to have, are evaluated on their own individual merit. Just because someone photographed an object that looks somewhat like Mr. Walters' photographs, or just because someone has come forth and verbally stated that they saw an object that looked like the Walters objects, does not validate the Ed Walters photographs. Ed Walters' photographs must stand on their own merit. I stated in my letter, "It has been conclusively proven that the objects Ed Walters photographed were models." You response was, "Conclusively proven? Only in Black's mind (and that of a few others). "Arguments over the Gulf Breeze photographs have raged over years, and despite the efforts of the died in the wool skeptics, the photographs still stand. They don't/won't understand the examinations those photographs have undergone." Yes, Mr. Maccabee, everyone does understand the examinations these photographs have undergone. They have undergone the examination of Mr. Jeff Sainio and yourself, against the examination of Mr. William G. Hyzer and his son, Mr. James B. Hyzer. Mr. William G. Hyzer stated in his final report that Photo #19 has been conclusively proven to be a double exposure. You, Mr. Maccabee, and Mr. Jeff Sainio, cannot even play in the same ball park as William G. Hyzer and James B. Hyzer. (For any interested parties who may be reading this open letter, we have Mr. Hyzer's rather impressive resume posted in an earlier open letter at our website, which can be seen at http://members.xoom.com/blackshole/jb02.html ) William Hyzer's experience in the medium spans over 40 years, and his son, James, has over 20 years experience. So the informed public out there should be quite aware of all of the examination that these photographs have undergone. Mr. Hyzer, one of the top ten photographic analysis people in the country, using first generation copies -- the same that Jeff Sainio used at different times -- has proven conclusively, as I said, that Photo #19, was definitely, without question, a double exposure. It is not, as you try to imply, his opinion. He has proven it conclusively. As I said, you also state, "Only in Mr. Black's mind (and that of a few others)." How many years have you had your head hidden in the sand, Mr. Maccabee? I think the statement should be the other way around... Only you, Jeff Sainio, Walt Andrus, the Gulf Breeze supporters, and a few others in the country support the Ed Walters photographs. The vast majority of serious UFO researchers, those who have seen all of the material available, do not support the Ed Walters sightings. Even your own MUFON Board of Directors does not support, in the majority, the Ed Walters Gulf Breeze sightings. You know that I know that is a fact. So you cannot even bring all of your MUFON Board of Directors in to support the Ed Walters case. Many of the Regional Directors and State Directors certainly do not support the case. Some of them, which I have talked to, are very embarrassed about it, and try to stay away from the topic when it is brought up. I have heard statements like, "Well, that was something in the past. Let's go forward, Jerry." So get your head out of the sand, Mr. Maccabee. The truth is, only you and a few others support the Ed Walters Gulf Breeze case. You state in your letter that a smear test reported by Jeff Sainio in the 1992 MUFON Symposium Proceedings argues against a double exposure of the Ed Walters photographs. The only thing that has been smeared during the investigation of the Ed Walters photographs, I'm afraid, are the reputations of you, Mr. Maccabee, and of Mr. Jeff Sainio, as photographic analysts. I will elaborate in great detail, in my upcoming final report on the Ed Walters Gulf Breeze sightings. Moving on, Mr. Maccabee, I stated in my letter that it was the view of Mr. Billy J. Rakes, President of the Polygraph Association of Florida in 1992, and also the view of the National Polygraph Association, that the subject, the person under investigation, cannot take/sponsor his own polygraph test -- it is considered to be an invalid test. Your reply to that was, "To say that the test results were null and void is a statement of opinion only, and not a fact. Mr. Black, so far as I know, never talked to the polygraphist who tested Ed twice." I did talk to him, and he gave good reasons for believing that his polygraph tests were valid. Wow, I didn't know that you talked to Harvey McLaughlin, Jr. personally, and that he told you that the polygraph test was completely valid. And, by the way, our President, Bill Clinton, told us that he "never had sexual relations with that woman," Monica Lewinsky. Who cares if you talked to Harvey McLaughlin, Jr. personally? I, in fact, talked to Ronald Lauland, the gentleman who gave Ed Walters his PSE test, five or six times. That does not make it a valid test, Mr. Maccabee. It appears that whenever an expert in a particular field takes a conclusive position or view, to you Mr. Maccabee, and to Mr. Walt Andrus, if it is contrary to what you believe, it becomes only an opinion. The facts are thus: Mr. Billy J. Rakes, President of the Polygraph Association of Florida, the National Polygraph Association, and 99 percent of the polygraph experts in this country, take the view that a subject who is under investigation cannot take/sponsor his own polygraph test. It is considered invalid. Whether you talk to them, whether I talk to them, whether the President of the United States talks to them, it is considered an invalid test, for obvious reasons. If we were to ask 100 ten year olds to give us the reason that a person under investigation cannot take/sponsor/pay for his own polygraph tests, 99 percent of those children would be able to give us a valid reason. Yet, you, Mr. Maccabee, with your Ph.D., cannot seem to understand why this test is considered an invalid test. Finally, Mr. Maccabee, in my upcoming review of the Ed Walters Gulf Breeze sightings, you will be given the opportunity to make $1,000.00 -- if you truly believe that the Ed Walters photographs are genuine. You should not be able to legitimately refuse this test. However, should you accept, if you are wrong about the Ed Walters photographs, and they are as Mr. William G. Hyzer has stated -- definitely double exposures -- you will lose $1,000.00. We will all wait and see if you are up to the challenge, Mr. Maccabee. Thank you for your time. Regards, Jerry Black JB/gmj A NOTE ABOUT JERRY BLACK: Mr. Jerry Black has been researching and investigating UFOs in a scientific and objective manner for the past 40 years. His Internet website can be found at: http://members.xoom.com/blackshole Mr. Black invites your comments on the above. He does not have an e-mail address, but can be reached at the following address and phone number: Jerry Black 6276 Taylor Pike Blanchester, Ohio 45107 (513) 625-2613 +~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+ | A Place That Every Parent Should Visit | | http://www.crossfields.com/~jerry/MBMF | +~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 24 Asteroids! From: Mitch Battros <earthcng@earthlink.net> Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 09:48:49 -0800 Fwd Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 17:54:33 -0500 Subject: Asteroids! Caution folks, this article is a bit scary, but true. This could be the explanation for the sharp increase in Fireball sightings. Has NASA, as well as other government officials, been less than forthcoming with what they know concerning Asteroids. Mitch Battros Cosmic rocks ganging up on Earth...02/24/99 Seth Borenstein Herald Washington Bureau WASHINGTON -- A dangerous asteroid will whiz by Earth today in a cosmic close call. Similar near misses are expected March 2, 18, 26 and April 1. Astronomers are discovering potential killer asteroids at a record pace. The public's flirtation last year with fear of menacing space rocks -- fueled by two fictionalized movies and one widely reported threat -- has faded. But astronomers scanning the sky with new technology are finding more asteroids than ever. There are almost weekly additions to science's official list of "potentially hazardous asteroids." In 1998, scientists found 55 of the would-be killers -- more than in the previous six years combined. Now the all-time list is at 163 and growing. None of these rocks is expected to hit Earth directly. But they are too close for comfort. "It's crazy," said University of Arizona astronomer Tim Spahr, scientist for one of three teams of sky searchers. "It's not even active, it's just insane." Caution, read with care!!!! Here are a few recent examples: This afternoon, a half-mile-wide asteroid discovered in January will whiz by Earth at a distance of 3.4 million miles. That rock, called 1999 BJ8, is expected to give Earth its closest call in the next 22 months, according to the ever-changing list of dangerous objects. On Feb. 4, 30-foot-wide rock came incredibly close to Earth. It was only 632,000 miles away (2 1/2 times the distance from here to the moon), and scientists didn't notice until it had already passed and was moving away. For a few brief hours Feb.16, it looked as if a two-thirds-of-a-mile-long asteroid discovered in January could come even closer than that -- maybe even hit us in 2066 or 2073. But new photographs showed that the rock with an unusual orbit would be close, but not that close. The biggest reason that astronomers are finding more of these near-miss asteroids is the redirection of Air Force technology from tracking killer satellites to spotting killer rocks. Massachusetts Institute of Technology's Lincoln Laboratory, a federally funded national security research center outside Boston, changed the asteroid tracking world last March when it began using Air Force technology to scan the sky with a telescope based in New Mexico. The lab's program, called LINEAR, has found 38 of the last 59 asteroids. "We have it down to a point where we're in a groove," LINEAR chief Grant Stokes said. But even as new threats are being found much more frequently than before, "we're way behind," said Don Yeomans, manager of NASA's Near Earth Object program. That's because last year, NASA set a goal of finding most potential asteroid threats within 10 years. Asteroids are considered a threat if they are bigger than half a mile wide and are going to come within five million miles of Earth. Astronomers guess there are 2,000 such asteroids out there, and so far they have found about 8 percent of them. So even though the number of asteroids being found is soaring, it's not growing fast enough, experts said. NASA, which spends $3.5 million a year on asteroid tracking, is speeding up the process. A second LINEAR program goes on-line this spring. With a second LINEAR, astronomers should find 90 percent of those killer rocks in about 16 or 17 years. The last time a big asteroid hit was 65 million years ago. That was the asteroid that landed in the Yucatan and is thought to have wiped out the dinosaurs. Of course, there are millions of others that could cause major disasters, like a 150-foot-wide one that exploded over Tunguska, Siberia, in 1908 and leveled thousands of square miles of forests. "If you were going to find every object that's going to threaten the Earth with a Tunguska, you're talking millions, not thousands." said researcher Jeff Larsen of the University of Arizona's Spacewatch tracking program. Mitch Battros Producer - Earth Changes TV arthchangesTV.com
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 24 Re: Tim Matthews From: Robin Ramsay <user@lobster.karoo.co.uk> Date: Mon, 03 Sep 1956 16:25:19 +0000 Fwd Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 18:04:08 -0500 Subject: Re: Tim Matthews [Nn-Subscriber Post] >From: Tim Matthews <matthews@zetnet.co.uk> >Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 16:11:44 -0000 >Fwd Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 09:10:09 -0500 >Subject: Re: Tim Matthews Lobster, Hull, UK Weds 24th Feb. Dear Errol Bruce-Knapp, A number of comments by Tim Matthews have been brought to my attention; and while I suspect that responding will only encourage him, a couple of things have to be put right. Matthews says Lobster has 'no credibility', which is simply a matter of opinion. It stands or falls by itself. However he goes on to say the following: >As to 'Lobster' magazine all I can say is that its' support for >a real intelligence asset who admits to having done deals with >UK intelligence (Yes, '"Dr." Armen Victorian') and its support >for 'Combat 18' contact Larry O'Hara says more than enough >about the shocking state of its readership - not to mention >Robin Ramsays' complete inability to grasp reality. He >obviously doesn't get out enough!" and >I don't think many people take 'Lobster' seriously and all of >O'Haras/Ramsays/Victorians' claims have been totally exposed as >the sad fantasy that they are." I am not aware of Armen Victorian being an 'intelligence asset' or 'having done deals with UK intelligence' and would be fascinated to know the location of this information. As for 'all of O'Haras/Ramsays/Victorians claims' hav[ing] been totally exposed as the sad fantasy they are' - what precisely is he doing here except engaging in further ad hominem attacks? Which claims does he have in mind? Between us we have made many in several fields! The personal abuse I can ignore. But an allegation such as Matthews' about Victorian and British intelligence is more serious. What we know as _fact_ about Matthews is the following: working for Searchlight he infiltrated the far right in the UK. Working for persons unknown he then infiltrated the magazine Green Anarchist and, in classic agent provocateur fashion, encouraged its readers towards acts of violence and law-breaking. (That members of Green Anarchist were subsequently the objects of a massive operation and prosecution by the British state, up to and including MI5, may be a coincidence.) The first claim is admitted by Matthews and the second is documented (a) by the material he wrote for the magazine and (b) by the testimony of the Green Anarchist members who were around at the time. It is on the basis of these previous activities that some people, me included, are suspicious of his role in the UFO field. Yours sincerely, Robin Ramsay, editor, Lobster.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 24 European Journal of UFO and Abduction Studies From: John Hayes <jhayes@cableinet.co.uk> Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 20:48:58 +0000 Fwd Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 18:15:09 -0500 Subject: European Journal of UFO and Abduction Studies Dear Errol, I'm not sure if you allow subscription forms on the list, but if you do please include this. If not a copy of the form is available at: http://ufoinfo.com/magazines/ejufoas3.html EUROPEAN JOURNAL OF UFO AND ABDUCTION STUDIES "Bringing the UFO Community Closer." Subscription Form You can pay for the European Journal of UFO and Abduction Studies in a variety of ways: Cheque Credit card (Visa, Delta, Eurocard, Mastercard) International Money Cheque/Draft I wish to purchase the European Journal of UFO and Abduction Studies in the following way (tick one option): [ ] Cheque. Please make the cheque payable to "Totton College" [UK residents only] [ ] Credit card. Please fill in your credit card number and signature below: Card Number: / / / / Exp.Date: Card Type (e.g. Visa, Mastercard): Signature of card holder: Address if different to subscription address: [ ] International Money Cheque/Draft. You must pay all charges. Draft must be in Pounds Sterling. Make cheque payable to "Totton College" Subscription details. All prices include postage and packaging. I wish to subscribe for the following issue(s) [ ] Launch issue only {September 1999} [ ] Launch issue and Volume 1 {2 issues in 2000} [ ] Launch issue plus Volume 1 and Volume 2 {2 issues in 2001} Prices for the European Journal of UFO and Abduction Studies: Launch issue only: United Kingdom =A34.75 Europe =A35.75 [airmail only] Rest of the World =A37.00 [surface mail] =A38.00 [airmail] Launch issue and Vol. 1: United Kingdom =A313 Europe =A316 [airmail only] Rest of the World =A320 [surface mail] =A322 [airmail] Launch issue, Vol. 1 and 2: United Kingdom =A321 Europe =A326 [airmail only] Rest of the World =A332 [surface mail] =A335 [airmail] Name and address where you would like your subscription sent [BLOCK CAPITALS PLEASE]: Name Address Country Return this form with payment details to: Subscriptions, EJUFOAS, Totton College, Water Lane, Totton, Southampton, SO40 3ZX, England. ------------ Regards, John Hayes jhayes@cableinet.co.uk webmaster@ufoinfo.com UFOINFO:- http://ufoinfo.com UFO Roundup:- http://ufoinfo.com/roundup/ Filer's Files:- http://ufoinfo.com/filer/ UFOICQ Australian UFO Reports and Experiences:- http://ufoinfo.com/ufoicq/
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 24 European Journal of UFO and Abduction Studies - From: John Hayes <jhayes@cableinet.co.uk> Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 20:47:27 +0000 Fwd Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 18:18:55 -0500 Subject: European Journal of UFO and Abduction Studies - Dear Errol, Craig Roberts recently sent information for inclusion on the UFOINFO site about a new magazine "European Journal of UFO and Abduction Studies." For those who may be interested and do not have web access I will forward the details in this and two other messages: European Journal of UFO and Abduction Studies Craig Roberts Editor of EJUFOAS UFO Studies Totton College Water Lane Totton Southampton SO40 3ZX England E-Mail: <ejufoas@totton.ac.uk> The European Journal of UFO and Abduction Studies is the journal of TRUTH UK [The Totton Researchers of Ufology Theory and History]. The journal has been initially set up to bring the European UFO community closer and is primarily, but not exclusively aimed at these organisations. The journal is objective in nature, allowing an outlet for the broad spectrum of issues related to UFO and Abduction phenomena. This includes all academic based subjects (e.g. astronomy, biology, psychology etc.) as well as spiritual aspects, scepticism and new theoretical issues. Therefore, the European Journal of UFO and Abduction Studies wants to publish ufological papers and ideas from a wide range of individuals, organisations and stand points. EUROPEAN JOURNAL OF UFO AND ABDUCTION STUDIES "Bringing the UFO Community Closer." POST FAR AND WIDE 20th February 1999 TRUTH UK intend the European Journal of UFO and Abduction Studies to be European! Therefore, we need your help to spread the word. Currently, we have many contacts, but we are missing UFO organisations from the following nations: Albania, Andorra, Armenia, Azerbaijan, Austria, Belarus, Bosnia-Herzegovina, Bulgaria, Cyprus, Czech Republic, Estonia, Faroe Isles, Georgia, Greenland, Gibraltar, Greece, Kazakhstan, Kirghizstan, Latvia, Liechtenstein, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Macedonia, Moldova, Montenegro, Serbia, Slovenia, Tajikistan and Turkmenistan. If you know of any UFO organisations then please can you send them details of this journal. Your help is very much appreciated. Also, please contact members of your own organisation and other organisations in your country. Thank you, and we look forward to hearing from you soon with papers and subscriptions. [End] Regards, John Hayes jhayes@cableinet.co.uk webmaster@ufoinfo.com UFOINFO:- http://ufoinfo.com UFO Roundup:- http://ufoinfo.com/roundup/ Filer's Files:- http://ufoinfo.com/filer/ UFOICQ Australian UFO Reports and Experiences:- http://ufoinfo.com/ufoicq/
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 24 European Journal of UFO and Abduction Studies From: John Hayes <jhayes@cableinet.co.uk> Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 20:49:33 +0000 Fwd Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 18:20:51 -0500 Subject: European Journal of UFO and Abduction Studies Dear Errol, Here are the submission guidelines for EJUSOAS: European Journal of UFO and Abduction Studies Craig Roberts Editor of EJUFOAS UFO Studies Totton College Water Lane Totton Southampton SO40 3ZX England E-Mail: <ejufoas@totton.ac.uk> EUROPEAN JOURNAL OF UFO AND ABDUCTION STUDIES "Bringing the UFO Community Closer." SUBMISSION GUIDELINES FOR POTENTIAL CONTRIBUTORS. "Bringing the European UFO Community Closer." The European Journal of UFO and Abduction Studies is the journal of TRUTH UK [The Totton Researchers of Ufology Theory and History]. The journal has been initially set up to bring the European UFO community closer and is primarily, but not exclusively aimed at these organisations. The journal is objective in nature, allowing an outlet for the broad spectrum of issues related to UFO and Abduction phenomena. This includes all academic based subjects (e.g. astronomy, biology, psychology etc.) as well as spiritual aspects, scepticism and new theoretical issues. Therefore, the European Journal of UFO and Abduction Studies wants to publish ufological papers and ideas from a wide range of individuals, organisations and stand points. Types of papers and articles we are looking for In reality, there are no papers that we will not consider. However, to help potential contributors, below are broad areas you may wish to write about: Theoretical issues. These articles may assess the validity of existing theories, expand on existing theories or present new theoretical ideas. Historical issues. These articles may look at the historical progression of UFO and Abduction phenomena or describe ancient accounts and issues. Empirical studies. These articles may be a report on primary research and data collection/analysis. Analysis of attitudes towards the UFO and Abduction phenomena may be an avenue of thought for instance. Methodological and Investigation issues. These articles may assess the methods and investigative techniques that ufology employs. They may also suggest particular methods that could be useful in the field of ufology. Cultural issues. These articles may look at whether particular aspects of ufology are culturally unique or non-culture bound. Commentaries. These articles can assess the notions published by authors in the European Journal of UFO and Abduction Studies. Case Studies / Reports of enhanced sightings (e.g. 'flaps'). These articles can give details of interesting cases or 'flaps' which may not have got a wider audience before. These will still be reviewed to ensure that the reports are ethically sound (see the notes on ethics within these submission guidelines). Authors of papers accepted in the above categories will receive a free copy of the journal that their paper appears in (if a paper has more than one author, the lead author will get the free copy). For articles accepted in the categories below, no free copy will be sent. Research Noticeboard. This section will allow researchers to communicate with one another in order to collaborate and discuss work. This will be an essential section for ufology researchers. Calls for help with research will be included. Reviews. Publishers and broadcasting companies may send books and videos for review. This section will give an objective view of the items sent. Ethical Considerations For articles that describe research using human participants, ethical guidelines must have been adhered to or the article will be returned without review. Research, therefore, should adhere to the ethical guidelines of the British Psychological Society or the American Psychological Association (or other recognised National Guidelines in your home nation - please supply us with details). Work with individuals who you feel are 'abductees' must also meet the guidelines described in "Ethics Code for Abduction Experience Investigation and Treatment," Journal of UFO Studies, Vol 5 (1994). Research that is seen as being ethically dubious will not be reviewed or published in this journal. If names are to be mentioned, consent for this in written form must be sent to the Editor along with the article submitted which involves the individuals in question. Pseudonyms can be used as long as it is clear that the name provided is one. Submission of papers Papers should be sent to the following address: Craig Roberts, Editor of EJUFOAS, UFO Studies, Totton College, Water Lane, Totton, Southampton, SO40 3ZX, England. Alternatively, authors can submit articles via electronic mail to: ejufoas@totton.ac.uk Papers sent via postal mail. Submissions should arrive in triplicate on A4 sized paper. A front sheet should be provided with the title of the paper along with the author(s) address(es) [postal and e-mail if applicable]. Then, the paper will be peer reviewed (blind) by three members of the editorial board. Papers sent via electronic mail. Two electronic mails have to be sent. One must have the title of the paper along with the author(s) address(es) [postal and e-mail if applicable]. The second must contain the paper along with any images and figures as attachments that are either in text form or Microsoft Word compatible. Then, the paper will be peer reviewed (blind) by three members of the editorial board. All papers must include a full reference section where authors of papers and books, the title of the book/article, the volume (if applicable) and year of publication are clearly visible. The following style is preferred: For citing articles. Hickman, J.C., McConkey III, E.D. and Barrett, M.A. (1995/6) 'Fewer Sightings in the National Press: A Content Analysis of UFO News Coverage in the New York Times, 1947-1995,' Journal of UFO Studies, Vol 6 (new series), p.213- 226. For citing books. Nagaitis, C. and Mantle, P. (1994) Without Consent: A Comprehensive Survey of Missing-Time and Abduction Phenomena in the UK. Ringpull Press Limited, Cheshire, UK. For citing chapters from books. Wagstaff, G.F. (1986) 'Hypnosis as Compliance and Belief: A Socio-Cognitive View,' in P.L.N. Naish (ed.) What is Hypnosis? Current Theories and Research Open University Press, Milton Keynes, UK, p.59-84. [END] Regards, John Hayes jhayes@cableinet.co.uk webmaster@ufoinfo.com UFOINFO:- http://ufoinfo.com UFO Roundup:- http://ufoinfo.com/roundup/ Filer's Files:- http://ufoinfo.com/filer/ UFOICQ Australian UFO Reports and Experiences:- http://ufoinfo.com/ufoicq/
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 24 Re: Robert Todd On MJ-12 From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net> Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 19:20:09 -0400 Fwd Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 18:34:45 -0500 Subject: Re: Robert Todd On MJ-12 >Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 12:57:33 +0000 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >From: John Rimmer <magonia@magonia.demon.co.uk> >Subject: Re: Robert Todd On MJ-12 >>From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net> >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >>Subject: Re: Robert Todd On MJ-12 >>Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 08:32:45 -0400 >>I have been told that forgers are normally very very careful >>to do nothing t hat calls their work into question. That is >>certainly not the case here. >Bit of a "heads I win tales you lose" here. If the document >seems authentic then obviously it can't be a forgery. But if >the document looks questionable it still can't be a forgery >because forgers are too clever as to produce questionable >documents. Must be those disinformation guys, hey, Stan? This a gross misrepresentation of what I have written in both TOP SECRET/MAJIC and Final Report on Operation Majstic 12. The CT memo is the only MJ-12 document that is an original. Real paper with watermark, aging, etc. It is not a xerox, not on film. It shows a real watermark etc etc. The paper was only made in bid lots and long before it was found. I don't talk in terms of looks authentic. I looked for and found many facts. For somebody to go through so much trouble and then intentionally put in eyebrow raising items like The unusual clearance, the absence of a /s/ etc etc., makes no sense. It was only during the GAO investigation that it was conclusively and independently determined that indeed such a security marking had been used at that time. I repeat forgers whether paintings, currency, documents do as little as possible to call attention to genuiness. Stan Friedman
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 25 Re: Big Lights Out West From: Daev Walsh - Blather <daev@blather.net> Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 18:55:23 +0000 Fwd Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 01:44:57 -0500 Subject: Re: Big Lights Out West [apologies if anyone gets this twice or three times - the first postings seem to have been lost in the ether....Blather] ______________________________________________________ B L A T H E R p a r a n o r m a l p r o v o c a t e u r i s m By Dave (daev) Walsh daev@blather.net Web: http://www.blather.net _______________________________________________________ February 12th 1999, Dublin, Ireland Vol 2. No. 37 _______________________________________________________ On the occasion of the last Vernal Equinox of the Millennium Quaternity presents: The first Transmute Conference *Who's Running This Show Anyway...!? A Multi-Paradigm Exploration* At the Guildhall, Salisbury, Wiltshire, England March 19-21 1999 Robert Anton Wilson; Dr John Mack (and "Experiencer") Alan F. Alford; Michael Baigent; Lindsay Clarke; Neil Freer; Charles Ginenthal; Patrick Harpur; Rob Irving; Richard Leigh; David Marsh; Lynn Picknett; Clive Prince; Michael Poynder; Peter Tompkins; Steve Wilson; Roger Woolger and KEN CAMPBELL! More details at http://www.transmute.co.uk/ ______________________________________________________ BIG LIGHTS OUT WEST As mentioned in *Good Puzzle* a couple of weeks back, there was a spate of Dublin UFO sightings *predicted* for 0500 hrs on January 30th. Dare we admit it, but this insomniac was indeed awake at the time (after having spent the evening lurching about the streets). We saw nothing in the sky other than the manner of thing that one expects to see (stars, clouds, aircraft, etc.), and as we didn't hear tell of any radio, TV or newspaper reports afterwards, Blather would only be *thrilled* to hear news to the contrary... A report of a rather bizarre nature (as if anything we report *isn't* bizarre) has come to us by way of the noble folk at Astronomy Ireland, originating with a certain Paraic O'Loughlin. He tells us that on December 27th 1998, he was motoring to Castlebar, Co. Mayo, along with three fellow passengers. At about 1910 hrs, whilst on the Tuam (Co. Galway) side of Claremorris, they were startled by two 'very bright flashes about 10 seconds apart'. One of the people in the car 'noticed a very bright persistent light following the first flash which lasted about 6 seconds'. As the second flash happened, they pulled the car up at a gateway. It seems that the 'persistent light' remained for over 4.5 minutes. No one had a camera with them, but Paraic returned a few days later to take some shots from the gateway with his digital camera, and from memory drew the 'persistent light' into the photograph, asking the other witnesses to verify the accuracy. They are all in agreement that the image shown 'is as close as possible' to the phenomenon they witnessed. While looking at this strange light, they all noticed 'narrow bands of coloured light rotating in a clockwise direction around the column', as well as part of it. These bands briefly radiated outward at about 45 degrees to the base of the column, while continuing to rotate. We're not sure how Paraic made these reckonings, but he says that that 'given the distance of about 1-1.5 miles [1.6-2.4km], we estimated the base of the column to be between 50 and 75 yards [48-70m]. Paraic and his friends contacted the E.S.B (Electricity Supply Board), who assured him that 'no device was capable of producing that amount of power' without their knowledge. Paraic then says that there *were* power outages in the area that night due to the extreme weather conditions [see *Storm Chaos* link below]. Working from Ordnance Survey maps [presumably 1:50000], Paraic drew a line between Claremorris and Crossboyne, about 2-3 miles [3.2-4.8km]. The sighting happened close to this line. On consultation with the Gardai, they opted to contact Mid West Radio, who mention it on the air, along with a taped conversation with Paraic. From this they have learned that others have seen the flashes, including three who saw the column, one driving from Galway to Clifden, one on Lurragh hill just outside Portumna and the other working at Breafy House Hotel in Castlebar. Paraic is baffled, and welcomes any comments... He can be emailed at padraigol@tinet.ie and his impression of what he witnessed is at http://www.blather.net/images/featured/issue2no37lightinthesky.jpg Whatever this light was would have had to have been witnessed over a huge area, during a period of severe weather conditions in which two men died from tree falls, and 60,000 homes were without electricity. But as Blatherskiver John Maguire muses: 'I am concerned at their other witnesses geographic location. They are giving us 4 points on a square area up to 70 miles by 70 miles. 3 other witnesses for an ENORMOUS 5 minute burst of light in a relatively populous area in DECEMBER at 7 o clock in the evening. During a blackout? No residual lighting, no street lighting. Hmmmm. This should have been seen by almost everyone. Portumna, Claremorris and Clifden as I don't need to explain to you are quite a ways from each other...' [see map link] Us Blatherskites have mused much upon this matter - could have been some kind of terrestrial 'sprite' - as in an 'Upper Atmospheric Optical Flashes Excited by Thunderstorms'? Sprites are large globs released into the upper atmosphere during large cloud-to-ground lightning discharges - a phenomenon only recognised since 1989. Hopefully we can elicit more information from Paraic on this matter - for instance - was it cloudy that night? Was it windy at the time? Was there *thunder*? It's even difficult to rule out sightings of Iridium flares, which have nothing to do with burning elements, but rather the name of a telecommunications company responsible for the placing of a series of low orbit satellites. There's currently 66 of them in a near-polar orbit some 485 miles (780 km) above the earth. Usually satellites can be seen moving steadily across the sky, winking. Iridiums, however, occasionally brighten - which even NASA feel will contribute to UFO sightings. The satellites flare up for 5-20 seconds, then vanish...as Jim Foster of NASA Goddard Space Flight Center says: 'Astronomers use an apparent brightness magnitude scale to determine how bright one object is compared to another. On this scale, the faintest stars that we can see with the unaided eye have a magnitude of about 5. The brightest star, Sirius, has a magnitude of -1.4, Venus at its brightest can reach a magnitude of about -5, and the full moon is approximately -12. Iridium flares can attain a magnitude of -7, which is about 120 times brighter than Sirius! Some observers have mentioned that when the satellite "flares," it looks like a headlight beam shining in the darkness.' This is due to sunlight reflecting from the satellites towards Earth, and the best time to see them is after dusk or before dawn, when the Earth is dark, but the satellite is still in sunlight. Glint from satellites is nothing special, but the Iridiums have silver-coated Teflon antennae. 'Since the axis of the satellite is constantly oriented vertical to the Earth's surface, the antennae plates are aligned in such a way that they can produce a direct, specular (mirror-like) reflection of the Sun's disk. From Earth, this reflection may be viewed only from a narrow, approximately north to south swath, which is on the order of twenty or thirty miles (about 32 to 48 km) in width.' It's possible to predict when to see each of these satellites - we know where both they and the sun are...the *German Space Operations Centre* has a website that allows web users to determine the details for spotting most satellites, including Iridiums [see below]. It doesn't let us go back in time, but it does let us know that the optimum time for seeing Iridiums from the Castlebar area at the moment is from 0500-0800 hrs and 1700-2000 hrs. Now, before waves of protest break free from the angry masses, let us declare that the above meanderings are just theory - we're merely examining possibilities. If Paraic's description - and picture - are indeed accurate, we would doubt that it was a satellite, even an Iridium. However, if the source was terrestrial, we would tend to agree with the ESB - it would use an enormous amount of electricity. If it was some monstrous burst of winter lightning, has there been evidence found of it on the landscape - and how could it have lasted for such a length of time? Dave (daev) Walsh 12th February 1999 ______________________________________________________ NOTES: *Good Puzzle* http://www.blather.net/archives2/issue2no35.html Astronomy Ireland http://ireland.iol.ie/~ai/ Storm Chaos - Irish Times December 28th http://www.irish-times.com/irish-times/paper/1998/1228/storm.htm Electricity Supply Board http://www.esb.ie An Garda S=EDoch=E1na - Ireland's Police Force http://www.garda.ie/ Map of West of Ireland http://www.blather.net/images/featured/issue2no37_map.gif German Space Operations Centre Satellite Predictions http://www2.gsoc.dlr.de/satvis/ Red Sprites and Blue Jets http://elf.gi.alaska.edu/sprites.html Upper Atmospheric Optical Flashes Excited by Thunderstorms http://sprite.gi.alaska.edu/html/sprites.htm Bolts from the blue http://www.newscientist.com/ns/970412/bolts.html What is an iridium flare? http://pao.gsfc.nasa.gov/GSFC/Educ/science/1998/05-04-98.htm IRIDIUM http://users.skynet.be/sky56407/htmleng/iridium.htm Iridium Flares - Explanatory Notes http://www2.gsoc.dlr.de/satvis/iridiumhelp.html Catch a *Flaring/Glinting Iridium http://www2.satellite.eu.org/sat/vsohp/iridium.html ______________________________________________________ MORE ON GENERAL MICHAEL COLLINS As if we didn't damage the history books enough last week; mere minutes after catapulting *Blather: Ancient Irish Astronauts* into the void, into our hands wander a rare and precious daguerreotype of General Collins in his NASA regalia. It's now available for perusal on the Blather steam-driven website: http://www.blather.net/images/featured/issue2no36spacebig.jpg *Blather: Ancient Irish Astronauts* http://www.blather.net/archives2/issue2no36.html ______________________________________________________ WHAT'S NEW AT MAGONIA http://www.magonia.demon.co.uk/newmag.htm 01/02/99 Magonia Monthly Supplement #11 : The Fitzgerald Report, Hudson Valley UFOs, Satanism Update. Abduction Watch #16/17 : Don Worley - Talking Dirty; invisibility, the latest tool in the circlemakers' box; The Abduction Reinvestigation Project ______________________________________________________ FATE Magazine: True Reports of the Strange and Unknown Reporting on UFOs, psychic phenomena, ghosts and hauntings, mystery animals, and other mystical experiences since 1948. To subscribe, call 1-800-728-2730 (U.S.) or visit http://www.fatemag.com ______________________________________________________ NiceOne - Ireland's No.1 Internet Directory NiceOne provides access to over 4,000 Irish Websites supporting Irish products & Services on the World Wide Web. (http://www.niceone.com) _______________________________________________________ SPONSORSHIP: While Blather will always remain free to the subscriber, we're always willing to talk to interested parties with regard to sponsorship. Contact: daev@blather.net _______________________________________________________ For the Blather archives, please go to: http://www.blather.net/archives/index.html _______________________________________________________ SUBSCRIBING TO BLATHER Send an email to: <list@blather.net> with the word subscribe in the body of the message. An automatic acknowledgement should be returned to you by e-mail within a few minutes. UNSUBSCRIBING Send an email to <list@blather.net> with the word unsubscribe in the body of the message. TECHNICAL PROBLEMS If you are having any technical problems, please email admin@blather.net _______________________________________________________
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 25 Re: A Poststructuralist Take On The UFO Phenomenon From: Michael Christol <mchristo@mindspring.com> Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 19:57:06 -0600 Fwd Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 02:24:33 -0500 Subject: Re: A Poststructuralist Take On The UFO Phenomenon >From: Robert Young <YoungBob2@aol.com> >Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 22:25:33 EST >To: Updates@globalserve.net >Subject: Re: A Poststructuralist Take On The UFO Phenomenon >>Does this make such people as: Thomas Edison, Alexander Graham >>Bell, Nikola Tesla, Orvil and Wilber Wright, Madam Curie, Jonas >>Salk, and other great names criminals because they 'challanged' >>and 'prevailed' over the 'accepted reality of their times?' >As I recall from public education theory which has been >developed over the last 60 years or so, there are several types >of people who will respond differently to new information: >The Innovators: a small percentage (<5% or so?, I forget the >exact numbers) who first develop new ideas. >The Early Adopters (Maybe 25% or so of the population, who are >quick to pick up new ideas and adopt them. >The Late Adopters (Maybe 50% of the population, who may adopt a >new idea over the next 10 years or more) >Forgot what this group's called (25% of the population, who will >probably never adopt these new ideas, in their lifetimes. Very Good Bob. So, where do you think This Dean lady fits in this assessment? After all, she is a highly educated Professor at a respected College. REgards, Mike
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 25 Re: A Poststructuralist Take On The UFO Phenomenon From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com> Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 20:43:56 +600 Fwd Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 02:47:47 -0500 Subject: Re: A Poststructuralist Take On The UFO Phenomenon Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 18:37:41 -0600 To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> From: Michael Christol <mchristo@mindspring.com> Subject: Re: A Poststructuralist Take On The UFO Phenomenon >From: Robert Irving <RobIrving@aol.com> >Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 13:01:10 EST >To: updates@globalserve.net >Subject: Re: A Poststructuralist Take On The UFO Phenomenon >>Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 18:02:11 -0600 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >>From: Michael Christol <mchristo@mindspring.com> >>Subject: Re: A Poststructuralist Take On The UFO Phenomenon <snipped aerobatic academics> >Grin... . . . which makes one wonder how much grinning John Ford has done in the past five years -- presupposing the irony that his only mention, thus far, is as inanimate support for an academic point . . . . Is the man that forgettablely odious that he should be relegated, so casually, to the position of clinical third person, of use only as support in esoteric debate? This is not an indictment, rather a reminder what the deal is. John Ford suffers as we speak. >Well Rob, what is said publicly and what is intimated, in some >cases can be the same thing. In others it may verge on fantasy. >Grin...I like the way you said: "This is not illegal 'IN MOST >PLACES.'" <g> Thus you leave open the possibility that it very >well may be in other places. <G> . . . perhaps many other places right _here_. Certainly in Suffolk county -- not to put too fine a point on it. >This was why I originally posted my questions. >As you know there has always been rumours of "impending danger," >and in some cases, it seems physical harm or even death has >occurred to UFO researchers/investigators, as well as others who >just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. . . . Resulting in ridicule, suspicion, censure, disrespect, and persecution when interested in the most exciting, challenging, and interesting occurrences of our time . . . >An example of this is John Ford. I have known him for about >eight years and he has shared a lot of information with me as it >was unfolding as far as the alleged crashes on Long Island are >concerned. Why can't John Ford get a trial? Why aren't more of us filled with moral outrage, genuine fear, and justifiable concern? Finally, why do we think that _we_ will be treated any differently at the denouement. >I find it extremely interesting that when he would not back away >from the South Haven Park incident, he and his LIUFON Group, >were harassed by the local police for passing out leaflets >regarding anyone who might have seen anything dealing with the >alleged crash in the park. Can you testify to first hand knowledge of his persecution? If so, can you share it here? Anything to inspire a little more of MY righteous indignation. I'm interested. We should all be _keenly_ interested. >I was given the names of several of the witnesses and I called >and talked with each of them. They verified much of what John >was saying. The Suffolk county political machine maintains that all of Ford's evidence is a fabrication produced by Ford's unstable mental condition. It seems you have first hand confirmation of his veracity. Beyond its use to support an academic point, can you testify to it, here? >I even wrote in protest to the Long Island Police Chief about >the way John and his group were being treated. I received a >reply, which I still have in my data base. God bless you, sir! Can you share it here? >Eventually, we are told that John was part of a conspiracy >against Republican John Powell, and an attempt to "kill him," by >irradiating his toothpaste by adding small amounts of radium to >it. Give me a break...It would take years to achieve this if >even then. It might have eventually made him ill, if John could >have intercepted every tube of tooth paste John Powell ever >bought or used. It does seem to strain credulity, and remember -- this was a conspiracy of three. _Three_ people had to demonstrate this lunacy, simultaneously. One of the three was a Suffolk county tool. >So, they take John, claim he is "mentally ill," and stick him in >a mental hospital, so he cannot continue to bombard the media >and the internet with his beliefs in regard to what happened on >Long Island. So -- two years in an institution for the criminally insane, followed by three years in regular gulag once it has been determined that he is competent to stand trial. Why can't he get a trial? What about *right* to _speedy_ trial? Why are we so blithely tolerant of this strange and unusual persecution? >I personally don't think John was dangerous. I think he was set >up. He was sometimes paranoid and always eccentric, but that >does not make him a "murderer". Your assessment contributes to the unanimous, with regard to those that new him. Still, he rots in jail! >So, in at least this case, I can see where challenging the >"established reality" can and probably did result in someone >being taken out of society so they could not continue to foster >such "preposterous ideas!" John Ford did indeed produce a >"political act", when he forced the Politicians and Law >Enforcement officials to take notice of him and his group and >their claims of "official cover-up" on Long Island. All within the letter of the law, the constitution, and our alleged societal ethic . . . still, . . . >Not only that, but I have been unable to locate one of his >right hand associates within LIUFON, Brian Levins, who has >disappeared from his last known residence and phone number. >This occurred in 1997, I think. A peculiar *coincidence*, pregnant with portentous potentials? >I have come to the conclusion that he may in fact be dead! He >and I were very close associates. We exchanged video tapes, >files and the latest information occurring in ufology. Dead! >He had a TV Program on Long Island, with Kenny Lloyd, called >"UFOs With Levins And Lloyd", a local access cable program on >the Island. >After I could not locate Brian, I called Kenny Lloyd and ask if >he knew where Brian was, and he gave me the impression that he >hadn't seen him in several months. He was not the least >concerned when I told him I had been unable to locate Brian. >That seems quite strange to me, considering the two of them >worked TV Show a year or more. What do you make of this, on reflection? <snip> I heard Laura Lee mention him briefly on her radio program last week. I missed her point in some AM static, and have yet to dig it out of her archives, but she seemed remarkably unconcerned about his situation. I find this behavior baffling, cross-purposed, and dangerous. Forgive my seeming impertinence, but the plight of John Ford chaps my ass. John Ford should be promoted out of the ambivalence we extend to him. He was fighting the good fight when he was taken down in a way that can only be described as above the law. John Ford is each one of us, on the one hand, and on the other a strident and more involved warrior for our cause. He deserves attention that he is just not getting. Restore John Ford! Lehmberg@snowhill.com Explore the Alien View! Ponder the Wit & Wisdom of Ching Chow! "Unstill Life" -- Animation . . . and more. http://www.fortunecity.com/roswell/arecibo/46/ <Updated 30 January> John Ford Restoration Fund -- Send your checks and money orders to _me_, Alfred Lehmberg (cut out the lawyers, they got theirs) at: 304 Melbourne Drive, Enterprise AL, 36330. Strict records kept. "Only thin, _very light_ envelopes with a return address will be accepted <g>." ~~~ $250.00 pledged -- $150.00 collected ~~~ "I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see from afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, while burning at the fundamentalist's stake.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 25 History Channel Special From: Joe Firmage <jfirmage@uswebcks.com> Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 22:08:28 -0800 Fwd Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 03:54:08 -0500 Subject: History Channel Special Hello everyone, I thought the History Channel's special tonight on "Aliens in Ancient History" was excellent. Though impossible to cover exhaustively in 60 minutes, the exploration of consistent accounts of sightings of structured metalic craft spanning Sumerian, Vedic, Egyptian, Biblical, and early American writings was compelling. Combined with modern reports of the same phenomenon and emerging concepts in physics, the pattern is clear, present, and explicable. J O S E P H F I R M A G E Founder & Chairman ______________________________________ International Space Sciences Organization
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 25 Re: Tim Matthews From: Henny van der Pluijm <hvdp@worldonline.nl> Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 04:25:19 +0100 (MET) Fwd Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 03:49:26 -0500 Subject: Re: Tim Matthews >Date: Mon, 03 Sep 1956 16:25:19 +0000 >From: Robin Ramsay <user@lobster.karoo.co.uk> >To: updates@globalserve.net >Subject: Re: Tim Matthews <a lot snipped> >The first claim is admitted by Matthews and the second is >documented (a) by the material he wrote for the magazine and (b) >by the testimony of the Green Anarchist members who were around >at the time. >It is on the basis of these previous activities that some >people, me included, are suspicious of his role in the UFO >field. Hi list, I am glad that the person of Tim Matthews has become a subject on this list. In fact I had been suspicious about Tim as well as I read dozens of editions of his 'newsletter' that he put out to a number of people including me. Each edition was the same as the others in the sense that it contained nothing more than ad hominem attacks and negativity. Speaking in the 'we' form, he attacked Linda Moulton in this edition, in the next the Birdsall brothers, in another Nick Pope, and so on and so on. At the same time he portrayed himself as the one and only UK ufologist who was out to seek the truth. A few months ago I got sick of it and asked to be removed from his list. Nothing happened and more negativity came in. Once more I asked to be removed and still I got my daily load of garbage. Eventually I threatened to expose this policy of Tim to send out unsollicited email and finally he complied. Judging from this experience and the outright character assassination on other ufologists that he is conducting, it doesn't surprise me that some UK ufologists are suspicious of his role in the field. __________________________________________ / Met vriendelijke groet/Best wishes \ Henny van der Pluijm hvdp@worldonline.nl Technology Pages http://home.worldonline.nl/~hvdp \______________________________________/
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 25 Re: Pope On A Rope From: Roy Hale <roy.hale@virgin.net> Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 06:56:53 -0000 Fwd Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 09:02:56 -0500 Subject: Re: Pope On A Rope >From: Rory Lushman <rory.l@zen.co.uk> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: Re: Pope On A Rope >Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 16:01:28 -0000 >Please note that our group, the Pendle, Hyndburn UFO Network, >also produce a magazine called "DOWN TO EARTH" and this should >not be confused with the magazine of the same title produced by >ELUFON, plus our advertising is FREE. >From roy.hale@virgin.net Hi All & Rory, Sorry I overlooked the fact that there is indeed another publication with the same name as ours. I understand that PHUFON have a Monthly -Bimonthly? 20 Page Side Stapled Newsletter I am not sure how much the budget is for the production of this Newsletter, but currently Our " 60 Page Magazine" bi-monthly is =A3350.00 for printing costs. This is the main reason for charging for Advertising space. Rory's newsletter on the other hand must be well funded by other means, I wish him all the best with his newsletter. If anyone has not had the chance to read a copy of "Down to Earth Magazine UK" which is now run separately from ELUFON, you can post =A32.50 to the following address to ensure yourself a copy. R.Hale (Down To Earth) 21 Sparrow Green, Bull Lane Dagenham Essex RM10 7EU UK If anyone is curious about my publication and you would like a second opinion on the mag, you can ask the following researchers for their review of the magazine. Chris Evers (Hull UFO Society: HUFOS & Faster than Light Magazine) David Kingston ( Crop Phenomena Investigations) Malcolm Robinson ( SPI London) David Quickenden (Astrasearch: Kent) Max Burns ( One of the UK's Foremost Investigators) Fabrizio Monaco (CISETI : Italy) QUFORG (Queensland UFO Research Group: Australia) Chris Martin (Investigator / Author :London) Steve Gerrad ( Southampton UFO Group: SUFOG) Jennifer Jarvis (Orbwatch: Ontario Canada) OVNI (France) Omar Fowler All of the above should be able to give you an unbiased opinion on my publication "Down To Earth Magazine UK". Also I am at this moment in talks with a number of publishers in the UK, so hopefully this will get "D.T.E" even further afield in the UK. Thanks,
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 25 Re: Major UFO Flap in Italy 02-23-99 From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com> Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 02:37:13 EST Fwd Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 09:08:03 -0500 Subject: Re: Major UFO Flap in Italy 02-23-99 >From: Maurizio Baiata <mbalien@tin.it> >Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 16:42:39 +0100 >Fwd Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 17:34:57 -0500 >Subject: Major UFO Flap in Italy 02-23-99 <snip> >I'm submitting below information regarding the wave of UFO >sightings occurring on the evening of 23 February in Italy. >The objects were UFOs, not Venus and Jupiter <snip> >The outbreak of sightings, which occurred around 7 PM in two >different towns of the Venetian area and were noticed >simultaneously in Bologna, Turin, San Giovanni Valdarno, Cuneo, >Turin, Venice, Genoa, Ravenna, Novara, Pescara, Gualdo Tadino, >Lucca and Rome, came to a halt just before 9 PM. Venus and Jupiter set in the west around 8 P.M. local time. >Most of the eye-witnesses saw two very bright lights in the sky, >at varying altitudes and different in size, stationary or slowly >passing by, at times coupled together and intermitently lit up, >while others described them as geometric formations totally >different from a planetary phenomenon and mainly hovering at low >altitude. In Novara, two lights headed towards Invorio, stopped >for about 30 minutes and, right after, flew in the direction of >Gozzano. I couldn't find Invorio or Gozzano on a road map of Italy, but I would bet good odds that they were to the West of Novara (in the same direction as Venus and Jupiter). Can anybody on the list help? <snip> >several astronomical observations >explained the phenomenon as an unusual conjunction between >Jupiter and Venus and some even mentioned Saturn. >Interestingly enough, the editorial staff >here was informed that the military bases of Istrana and >Tessera, Veneto, were kept on the alert. Due, undoubtedly, to the NATO build-up in preparation for possible committment to Kosovo, which also may account for some sightings. Bob Young
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 25 Re: History Channel Special From: Roy Hale <roy.hale@virgin.net> Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 13:34:37 -0000 Fwd Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 12:10:37 -0500 Subject: Re: History Channel Special >From: Joe Firmage <jfirmage@uswebcks.com> >To: updates@globalserve.net >Subject: History Channel Special >Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 22:08:28 -0800 >Hello everyone, >I thought the History Channel's special tonight on "Aliens in >Ancient History" was excellent. Though impossible to cover >exhaustively in 60 minutes, the exploration of consistent >accounts of sightings of structured metalic craft spanning >Sumerian, Vedic, Egyptian, Biblical, and early American writings >was compelling. >Combined with modern reports of the same phenomenon and emerging >concepts in physics, the pattern is clear, present, and >explicable. >J O S E P H F I R M A G E >Founder & Chairman >______________________________________ >International Space Sciences Organization Hi Joe, Although I didn't get to see this programme I am very much on the same thinking concerning early historical ET visitations. Another programme (Video) to look out for which is also an excellent piece of Research is 'Are We Alone In The Universe?' By Zecharia Stitchin. Roy..
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 25 Re: South Australian UFO Report From: Diane Harrison <tkbnetw@fan.net.au> Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 23:48:47 +1000 Fwd Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 12:18:48 -0500 Subject: Re: South Australian UFO Report The Keith Basterfield Network Australasia E-Mail tkbnetw@fan.net.au http://www.fan.net.au/~tkbnetw **************************************************************** UFO Australian Research Network Hot Line Number 1800 77 22 88 Free Call **************************************************************** Please Post: Source:'Country Times' Newspaper 23.2.99. Location: Roxby Downs towards Port Augusta Time: 10:25 p.m. Date: Febuary 5th .1999 From: South Australian Ufologist Peter Johnson <prlfj@netyp.com.au> I have just read this account in the local paper from Jeff Cook (quite a famous poet from Minlaton 30 miles south of Maitland) , he is a on the local council and involved with any number of other public interests around the area, you could not wish for a better witness from this area, so I was rapt when I saw this article. What's Cooking on the UFO Front? This report is written by my self, Jeff Cook of Minlaton, but the events were seen by both Mick Cartwright and myself, and discussed at length, with no disagreement as to what was seen. Neither Mick nor myself had partaken of any alcohol or stimulants during the preceding 24 hour period. I was returning south from Roxby Downs towards Port Augusta, on the night of February 5, as a passenger in a car driven by Mick Cartwright. About 10:25 p.m. I was suddenly aware of what initially appeared to be the scene of an incident on the road, about 1.5 miles ahead of us - ther were many red lights and at least one blue flashing light. Within seconds I realised the lights were not stationary, but were moving along the road at a similar speed to ours, and appeared to be weaving a few feet either side of straight ahead. I have no explanation as to why those lights were not seen from a greater distance, as the night was clear, the road relatively straight and flat. At that distance I had the impression of the size and positioning of the lights being similar to a CFS firefighter truck from the rear, with a blue flashing light on the top left hand corner, but only facing forward, not rotating. Our initial speed was 100kph, but increased to 110 kph, and we were obviously getting closer to the lights. CHANGING LIGHTS As we got closer, another pair of red lights appeared to be a few feet to the right, and in line with the lower red lights, but the position varied from about two feet to the right and upto eight feet to the right, while the other lights did not appear to change their relative positions. The blue flashing light was reflected on the road, trees and white posts, but was only a glow, not a definite light. Sometimes there appeared to be a second white light at a much lower level and not timed with the upper light. I noticed that although the low - level bushes on the side of the road were swaying violently in a north/south direction, the surrounding trees did not appear to be affected by any breeze. There were no visible lights from any other traffic, either from in front or behind our vehicle. I noticed there seemed to be no glow of headlight from the (assumed) vehicle in front, that is, it did not light up the road, trees or white posts as it passed them, but the flashing lights did. As the assumed vehicle weaved, there was no impression of any side lights, as are seen on trucks and larger vehicles. After a few minutes, the lights of an assumed car appeared to come from a left hand curving rise heading north. As they approached spot were they should have been blocked by the assumed vehicle we were following, they they were not blocked in any way, even momentarily. After a few seconds of their approach, the approaching lights disappeared, and I assumed the vehicle had gone into a dip in the road and would re-appear. But it did not reappear and, as our vehicle continued, there was no dip in the road, nor break in the trees on either side of the road, where the approaching vehicle could have gone without leaving signs. There was no dust stirred up from the side of the road to suggest it had left the bitumen surface. As we approached the road side sign warning of a rail crossing, we were about 300 yards behind the assumed "firetruck" and closing. The right hand red light that had been changing position from two to eight feet from the rear right then had a blue light flashing glow facing forward immediately in front of it. At this the lights from our vehicle should have been able to easily illuminate distinctive features of a vehicle but I could only see the lights. VANISHED The lower right hand "movable" lights then moved out to a position which made the "vehicle about 20 feet wide (full width of the road surface), then vanished completely, from a position 200 yards north of the rail crossing sign. As we approached and passed this spot, it was evident that no vehicle could have left the road at that speed without making extreme dust and flying gravel which would have impacted on our vehicle. Likewise, ther was no evidence of interference with roadside trees and bushes. My extensive experience on the road has me convinced that the "vehicle which we were following did not have the properties of any I have ever seen or heard of, and no man made conveyance could change direction to go upwards instantly, nor could a pilot of any aircraft survive the gravity forces necessary to instantly disappear upwards. The "vehicle" did NOT continue forwards, sideways, up of down. It simply vanished! Soon after, our car did reach an upward left hand curve from which the previously mentioned approaching car headlights could have come, but none of the above has an explanation that I can think of. END. Thank you Peter Johnson for this Report Regards Diane Harrison
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 25 CSI Launches Space Website Search Engine From: Ignatius Graffeo <Ufoseek@aol.com> Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 09:16:16 EST Fwd Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 13:30:32 -0500 Subject: CSI Launches Space Website Search Engine Company Press Release Commercial Space Industries Launches Innovative Internet Search Engine for Outer Space Websites FORT LAUDERDALE, FL--(BUSINESS WIRE)--Feb. 18, 1999-- Commercial Space Industries (CSI) today announced that it has launched a new internet portal titled "Lunartic.com". The new web service focuses on helping internet users locate websites covering space related topics such as astronomy, outer space, and UFOs and also features the latest space and astronomy news. Lunartic.com can be found on the internet at: http://lunartic.com. "There was a real void on the internet for a portal which featured outer space, astronomy, and UFO websites," said John House, president and founder of CSI. "We are extremely excited to be offering this service to the internet community. Lunartic.com is the portal that fills that void by providing a search engine and news service that delivers an exhaustive list of websites on-topic without the user having to filter through thousands of off-topic sites." he added. Lunartic.com allows a user to search for websites by entering user-defined text or key words, or by selecting from a variety of fixed topics such as aerospace, astronomy, government, education, and commercial sites. Visitors to Lunartic.com also find the latest news from a wide variety of sources such as NASA, the European Space Agency, and commercial space companies. Users may also submit a website address -- or URL -- to be added to the search engine's list of websites. Several features cause Lunartic.com to outpace other internet portals: - Lunartic.com uses only human input to add websites to its database. Only legitimate, on-topics websites are accepted eliminating thousands of off-topic entries on a user's search results. - Visitors to Lunartic.com find the latest news about outer space, astronomy, and UFOs - updated daily, sometimes hourly. - Search results on Lunartic.com show the dates that a website was added or modified. This allows the user to quickly judge whether or not to visit the site. - All websites listed by Lunartic.com are tested on a regular basis to be certain they are "alive". Non-responsive websites are deleted from the Lunartic.com database. Lunartic.com is operated by the Internet Publishing Division of Commercial Space Industries, a division of J.M.House Industries, Inc. dedicated to delivering a variety of high-technology, cutting-edge products and services to a global marketplace which promote the commercialization and privatization of outer space. Visit CSI's website at http://isnetwork.net. Source: DigitalWork http://www.digitalwork.com Contact: Commercial Space Industries, Boca Raton Darrel Johnson, 561/347-0503 Fax: 561-347-0503 Email: djohnson@isnetwork.net Copyright =A9 1999 Business Wire. All rights reserved. _______________________________________________ Keeping you informed with the latest UFO and alternative News: UFOSEEK... For the Source! http://members.aol.com/ufoseek/ http://www.ufoseek.org
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 25 Fireball/Airplane Crash/UFO? From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@YorkU.CA> Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 10:08:14 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time) Fwd Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 13:32:11 -0500 Subject: Fireball/Airplane Crash/UFO? Hi everyone. Driving to work yesterday morning I heard on the radio (680 AM in Toronto) about a bright meteor that was seen and reports of a possible airplane crash in the Kitchener/Waterloo area (west of Toronto) at about 6:30 a.m. earlier that same morning. I did not hear any further details while listening to the same radio station yesterday after work or see any possible related story in today's newspaper. Does anyone, especially those living in the K-W area, know anything more about this fireball/crashed airplane/UFO report? Nick Balaskas
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 25 Re: Pope On A Rope From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net> Date: Thu, 25 Feb 99 10:15:52 PST Fwd Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 13:34:48 -0500 Subject: Re: Pope On A Rope >Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 12:45:33 -0500 >From: Andy Roberts <Brigantia@compuserve.com> >Subject: Pope On A Rope >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net> >>>Subject: Re: Pope On A Rope >>>Date: Sun, 21 Feb 99 11:59:46 PST >>>To: ufoupdates@globalserve.net >>I rest my case. I think we are not -- I am trying to be >>charitable here -- dealing with someone whose thinking can >>exactly be characterized as nuanced. In the real world persons >>shade the truth for all kinds of reasons, good and bad. Shading >>the truth in a particular instance so as not to subject oneself >>to embarrassment or ridicule is among the most common,practiced >>by all sorts of otherwise honorable and truthful individuals. >Yes they do, and in what passes for the 'real' world - ie where >individuals are not claiming exotic interactions with strange >beings, that's just how it is. But if people are not telling the >entire truth about experiences which have a somewhat dubious >reality status then I still think it is reasonable that we treat >_all_ their information, unless fully evidenced, with care. That >you are obviously prepared not to speaks volumes Jerome. Yeah, whatever you say, Andrew. I hold the strange view that human beings are complex and that their actions, even if misguided, cannot always be laid to venal motives, though I can understand why it would serve your ideological purposes to believe so in Nick Pope's case. >>In the two cases we are discussing -- that of somebody here >>called "Popey" (Nick Pope to the rest of us) and that of Peter >>Rojcewicz (no known insulting nickname available) -- we are >>dealing with persons who shaded the truth for the reasons >>stated above. >>Unless we find evidence that Pope and Rojcewicz >>have engaged in a pattern of chronic lying, no one except the >>self-righteous crusader like Andy Roberts will draw larger >>negative conclusions. >Well that's not strictly true Jerome. I think it's safe to say >that in UK ufology most people are highly critical of Pope for >his jiggery pokery wth this 'abduction' experience. That, >coupled with the fact that his general ufological knowledge is, >shall we say 'thin' (read his history in 'Open Minds....') makes >anything he says - in mine and many other people's opinions - >somewhat dubious. Having met Pope casually and spent time with him once at a UFO conference in Leeds, I agree that "his general ufological knowledge is ... thin." That, however, does not speak to his honesty and credibility any more than does his understandable reluctance to associate himself with something so ridicule- inducing as a perceived abduction experience. All we know so far is that Pope had what he apparently suspects was some sort of extraordinary experience which he wanted to put on record and from which he nonetheless wished to distance himself in public. No further conclusions are possible at this stage, and it does none of us any credit to pretend otherwise. Jerry Clark
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 25 Re: Black's Interesting Offer to Maccabee From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net> Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 12:54:26 -0400 Fwd Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 13:40:56 -0500 Subject: Re: Black's Interesting Offer to Maccabee >Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 12:55:04 -0600 >To: updates@globalserve.net >From: Glenn Joyner <infohead@airmail.net> >Subject: Black's Interesting Offer to Maccabee >Greetings, EBK and List Members: >I have seen several responses to Jerry Black's open letter to >Whitley Strieber, and have printed and forwarded them to him. >I'm sure he will appreciate your comments. One early commentator >to that piece was Bruce Maccabee. Jerry has dictated and asked >me to post for him a response to Mr. Maccabee's comments. >Glenn >----- >An Open Letter to Bruce Maccabee >From Jerry Black >February, 1999 >During the next 90 days, Mr. Maccabee, I will be placing my >final report on the Ed Walters Gulf Breeze sightings on my >Internet website. I will be discussing, at length, all of the >main issues of the Ed Walters case. I will show anyone and >everyone why this case has been proven conclusively to be a >hoax. >So at this time I will respond only briefly to your three-page >reply to my review of Whitley Strieber's case. <snip> As a member of the Board of MUFON, and as a scientist who has known Dr. Maccabee for about 30 years, and who has indeed met Ed Walters, I will here state my unequivoval support for Dr. Maccabee's objectivity, attention to details, and careful approach to ufological research in all areas including his investigation of the Ed Walters case. I have yet to see any indication that Mr. Black is a scientist or has published in peer reviewed journals . Having strong opinions is not the same as being objective. Stan Friedman
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 25 Re: A Poststructuralist Take On The UFO Phenomenon From: Robert Young <YoungBob2@aol.com> Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 11:13:19 EST Fwd Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 13:38:31 -0500 Subject: Re: A Poststructuralist Take On The UFO Phenomenon >From: Michael Christol <mchristo@mindspring.com> >Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 19:57:06 -0600 >Fwd Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 02:24:33 -0500 >Subject: Re: A Poststructuralist Take On The UFO Phenomenon >>From: Robert Young <YoungBob2@aol.com> >>Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 22:25:33 EST >>To: Updates@globalserve.net >>Subject: Re: A Poststructuralist Take On The UFO Phenomenon <snip> >>there are several types of people who will respond differently to >>new information: >>The Innovators: a small percentage (<5% or so?, I forget the >>exact numbers) who first develop new ideas. >>The Early Adopters (Maybe 25% or so of the population, who are >>quick to pick up new ideas and adopt them. >>The Late Adopters (Maybe 50% of the population, who may adopt a >>new idea over the next 10 years or more) >>Forgot what this group's called (25% of the population, who will >>probably never adopt these new ideas, in their lifetimes. >Very Good Bob. >So, where do you think This Dean lady fits in this assessment? >After all, she is a highly educated Professor at a respected College. Well, Mike: I once received an undergraduate degree in English and have followed the political contortions of the members of the Modern Language Association during the rise and fall of Poststructuralism with some small interest. At this late date, it ain't at all clear that she is in the first two groups. Most of the Edison, et al. crowd, were probably in groups 1 or 2. Since something over half of adult Americans seem now to subscribe to an ETH explanation for some UFO reports, I wonder where that puts them? Of course, by thinking in these terms we are engaging in poststructuralist "thought". Clear skies, Bob Young
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 25 Re: Phil Klass and The Trent Photos From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com> Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 13:14:15 -0500 Fwd Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 13:44:42 -0500 Subject: Re: Phil Klass and The Trent Photos >From: DRudiak@aol.com >Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 14:18:19 EST >To: updates@globalserve.net >Subject: Re: Phil Klass and The Trent Photos >>From: Royce J. Myers III <rjm3@sprintmail.com> >>Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 11:19:13 -0800 >>Fwd Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 10:53:04 -0500 >>Subject: Phil Klass and The Trent Photos >In 1997 I visited the site where the photos were taken. It's >changed quite a bit since 1950. Trees are planted in the back >yard and a cherry orchard across the road, what used to be a >vacant field in the photos. As a result, the view from the back >yard where Trent took his photos has been obscured by trees. >Trent's house burned down in the 1960s and a trailor home now >occupies the site. Major changes had occurred by the 1970's when I began my investigation. >However, the famous garage in the photos is still there, though >altered. The rafters which cast the controversial shadows have >been cut back and gutters added. A car shelter has been added >in front, and further obscures the view. The propane tank of the >photos is long gone. I think that was an oil tank. Certainly looked like one at the house where I grew up. It was still there in 1967 when Hartmann took his one photo of the Trent back yard (during the investigation for the Condon Report). >Incidentally, the garage is much larger than what you would >think from the photos. It holds two cars and has workspace down >the sides. There is also a storage shed attached to the back. >This has relevance to another bogus argument raised by skeptics >against the authenticity of the Trent photos: why didn't Trent >walk around back of the garage, i.e. to his left, to keep the >object in view when it moved to the left and was about to be >obsured by the roof of the garage? The most important reason is >that it was a long walk around the back of the garage. >Furthermore, Trent would have lost sight of the object while he >was doing this. It was much simpler (and more logical) for >Trent to walk forward and to his right a few feet to keep the >object in view the entire time and then snap his second photo. Thanks for confirmation of the length of the garage. From aerial photos I had concluded it was about 28 feet long. >Another objection to the Trent photos was why didn't others see >the object? Again a site visit by skeptics would have provided a >logical answer. The area was very sparsely populated, >consisting primarily of large open farm fields with a few farm >houses scattered here and there. Even today, there probably >aren't more than about 30-50 people per square mile. Mrs Trent told me, during phone conversations in the middle 1970's that her in-laws, who lived several hundred feet away along the same road (house probably still there) saw it. Furthermore, she said some other neighbor of hers saw the same thing. James McDonald was told about the in-laws' sighting, but they were dead by the time he learned of hits (in 1968 I believe). The other possible witness was dead by the time I found out about her. <snip> >David Rudiak
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 25 Re: Questions On A Couple Of Old Photos... From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com> Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 13:14:09 -0500 Fwd Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 13:49:08 -0500 Subject: Re: Questions On A Couple Of Old Photos... >From: Ralph Howard <RHJr1983@aol.com> >Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 19:42:02 EST >To: updates@globalserve.net >Subject: Questions On A Couple Of Old Photos... >In the course of making myself a catchy screen-saver for my >computer at work, I ran across two old UFO photographs shown in >Frank Edwards' 'UFOs: Serious Business'. The two photos are >shown one above the other, one is shot no. 1 of the 2 Trent >photos (May 1950), and the other is a photo of an extremely >similar disc that is stated to have been taken by a French Air >Force pilot near Rouen, France in March 1954. >I am aware of all of the analytical work done on the Trent >photos. Concerning the other photo, from France: >-Does anyone know of the primary source of the photograph? Is it >written up anywhere with a case analysis? >-Was the photo ever studied or analyzed? Thank you for your request for info on the "Rouen" photo. The date was not 1954. That was an error created by the publication of a sketch of it in NICAP's 'UFO Evidence'. The original publication was in the 'Royal Air Force Flying Review' in Britain in the spring of 1957 I believe (maybe '58). I don't have my information here at hand, but I seem to recall that it was supposedly taken in March, 1957. The editor of 'Flying Saucer Review' was made aware of the publication and got a copy to print in the FSR. In the middle 1970's I wrote to RAF Flying Review after getting info from the FSR editor. There was no information on the source of the photo other than what was printed in the RAF magazine. A search of French Air Force sources by Dr,. Claude Poher failed to turn up any info on the photo. All that can be said for certain is that it is _not_ simply a copy of Trent #2.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 25 Re: Phil Klass and The Trent Photos From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com> Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 13:14:48 -0500 Fwd Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 13:56:31 -0500 Subject: Re: Phil Klass and The Trent Photos >Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 11:19:13 -0800 >From: Royce J. Myers III <rjm3@sprintmail.com> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: Phil Klass and The Trent Photos >Phil Klass is the antithesis of reason and common sense. >The man will stop at nothing and use any explanation to discount >any UFO case. His militant positon on the Trent photos is >ridiculous. He was reaching for any explanation he could to >debunk the photos and the witnesses. >I interveiwed both Paul Trent and his wife in 1994 at their home >in McMinville, Oregon. They were adamant that they believed they >photographed a secret military aircraft at the time, _not_ a UFO >(i.e.: aliens, et al). >They don't even believe in aliens! >They are among some of the most sincere people I have ever met. >I didn't detect any kind of deception from them during my 3 >hours conversation with them. > >Also, the same type of object was photographed again a few years >later, this time in France by a pilot. Why NBC failed to use >that information is beyond me. This information was contained in Flying Saucer Review and the Royal Air Force Flying Review in 1957. Although there is no doubt that this famous "Rouen" photo does (did) exist, an effort in the latter 1970's to track down the photographer failed. The Image in the Rouen photo is clearly _not_ just a copy of the UFO image in the Trent photo #2. >The NBC special has shown beyond a doubt that the photos are >authentic. I had done this nearly 20 years earlier. Although I was not mentioned in the NBC special, I was interviewed (and ended up on the cutting room floor). Rand Molnar who was the photo analyst made use of my work in arriving at his conclusion. >Phil is always crying how science is never used in these >cases... Phil, ever hear of the Condon Committee? The Trent >photos were not dismissed by that investigation. Sort of true. William Hartmann, the photo analyst, was apparently convinced that Trents had seen and photographed a strange object at some distance. However, Dr. Condon, in writing his summary of the report, reported that a photogrammetrist had considered the photos to be too fuzzy for worthwhile photogrammetry. Now, Hartmann had made use of photometry, not photogrammetry to arrive at his conclusion (photometry - measurements of relative _brightness_ of images) (photogrammetry - measurements of relative _positions_ or _directions_ of images). This was a bit of verbal obfuscation on th part of Condon who I am sure, knew the difference between photometry and photogrammetry. >As for the statement made by Klass that the Trents were out for >attention, that is complete speculation with no basis in fact of >any kind. I'm wondering if Phil Klass ever took the time to >interview the Trents...probably not. There is no evidence that they were "out" for attention. The fact that they got attention does not imply that they intended to get it. >The Trents and their childeren were subjected to a great amount >of ridicule when their photos became famous and for years >following. In fact, the Trents made absolutely no money from the >photos, the only thing they received was a trip to New York >where they appeared on a program there. > >The Trents told me they had loaned their negatives to this >program for them to use. This was the last of the negatives they >ever saw. Since then the photos have been used in many >documentaries, books, and so on. >From what the Trents have told me, the negatives were in fact >stolen from them. But they did not seek to recover them because >of all the trouble the photos had caused. I wonder how much >money has been made off those negatives since. If the Trents >were out for money or fame, then why did they not pursue a >course of action to reclaim their property and profit from the >photos? Because financial gain was not their motive. They simply >saw something strange in the sky and photographed it. Not much money has been made from those negatives. On the other hand, I saw to it that, people who contacted me for information on the Trent photos and who wanted to publish my analysis along with their photos, had to contact the Trents for permission. I suppose they _might_ have been paid as much as a few hundred dollars over the last 25 years since I was involved as a result of my efforts to see that they got paid something for use of their pictures. However, over the last 49 years the pictures have been published dozens of times with no compensation for the Trents. >The Trents (to my knowledge) still live quietly in McMinville, >Oregon in a modest retirement complex. They live off a small >retirement fund which they worked for all their lives. Mr.Trent >(when I talked with him in 1994) was having problems walking and >was in desparate need of an electric cart in order for him to be >able to go anywhere. These are two honest people who honestly >reported what they saw... hardly famous and hardly rich.> It is my understanding that Evelyn and Paul have died in the last few years.. The only video-taped interview of which I am aware was done by Terry Halstead in 1995. >Regards,> >Royce J. Myers III >Eugene, Oregon Thanks for your valuable input on the Trent case. You are one of a number of researchers (Bill Powell, Frank Wortman, Frank Halstead, Bill Hartmann, Veikko Itkonen, Bruce Maccabee, Arthur Fryer, etc.) who have interviewed the Trents and found them to be down-to-earth people who would not be likely to create any hoax, to say nothing of a UFO hoax.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 26 Pending Lawsuit - Dilettoso vs. Korff From: Jim Dilettoso <jim@villagelabs.com> Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 14:54:16 -0700 Fwd Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 08:01:14 -0500 Subject: Pending Lawsuit - Dilettoso vs. Korff Kal Korff. I require that you respond immediately to the prior e-mails that I have sent you and address the issues of your background, your purposes, your methods, your actual credentials, your allegations against me and your publications. Subsequent to your refusal to respond to these issues, I suggest that you have �Consented by your Conduct� that you have no credible support for your allegations and position . Therefore you must: Prove the following immediately. 1. Source of your information on my �court records show �$2000000 swindle of my investors." 2. Proof (not hear-say) that I have conned people with my image processing testing as you have stated. OR THEN. Remove the following (within 48 hours) 1 All search engine submissions that you made with the tag line � Jim Dilettoso finally exposed for Good?� this includes Yahoo, Excite, Alta Vista, Infoseek 3. Postings on UFOMind and UFO Updates with the Tag �Jim Dilettoso finally exposed for Good� 4.You initiated these E-mail responses by First issuing a ficticious open letter wherein you claimed stated $2000000 suit proven in court, swindle, 5. This letter was also sent to UFOUpdates in Toronto and then many people responded using the �subject line that you created<�JDFEFG� 6. YOU then posted these to Glen Campbell and UFOUpdates and others 7. You then submitted them to search engines. 8. Remove allegations on your homepage that I am responsible for your Art Bell fiasco. 9. Remove allegations on your web page that Village Labs is going out of business 10. Remove allegations on your web page that a fellow con man to Jim Dilettoso , admitted that he/they faked UFO picture testing. 11. If you do not do this then I will do the following: 12. Notify InterNic and Network solutions of your various deeds 13. I will file a complaint with the FCC 14. File complaints with Yahoo, Netscape, Alta Vista , Excite and then 15. I will file suit against you, Boeing Data (your Webhost during that era) Prometheus. Total Research Inc. UFOMIND Glen Campbell UFO UpDates - Toronto 16. These are slanderous, untrue statements, mixed with pseudo-allegations and have no right to continue to be posted/ posted on UFOmind or any other place that has these under the pretense of public good or public service. It was done malicilously and calculated to diminish my reputation. And has affected my credibility and ability to continue to earn a living. 17. I have hired a noted firm to remove these items from the Internet and BILL you. (I will be awarded these fees in a court settlement.) 18. I will be awarded legal fees by the court to do these things, and I have already selected and (retained) the most competent law firm(s) that you or your people can imagine 19. I will be awarded damages and punitive awards and don�t you think for a minute that I won�t win. Succinctly, Jim Dilettoso CC: List suppressed
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 26 Major 'UFO Flap' in Italy - Venus & Jupiter? From: Edoardo Russo <edoardo.russo@torino.ALPcom.it> Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 23:47:16 +0100 Fwd Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 08:14:19 -0500 Subject: Major 'UFO Flap' in Italy - Venus & Jupiter? >From: Maurizio Baiata <mbalien@tin.it> >To: <Updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: Major UFO Flap in Italy >Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 16:42:39 +0100 >I'm submitting below information regarding the wave of UFO >sightings occurring on the evening of 23 February in Italy. More properly than a "wave" it should rather be called a "flap", since it was a sudden flood of nearly contemporary sightings, as opposed to a large number of different reports on a wider time span. As a matter of fact, thousands of people all over half the Italian peninsula (as northwest as Aosta, as northeast as Gorizia, as west as Sassari, as southwest as Viterbo, as southeast as Pescara), watched astonished two bright lights hovering low in the western sky, between 6.30 p.m. and roughly 8 p.m. The lights were close to each other (less than one moon diameter), the one at the left brighter and higher than the other one. They were far more luminous than any star or planet, and were described by some witnesses as "like halogen lamps" or "like a car parked in the sky with two headlines on". Many witnesses remained more than an hour watching them, and several had the time to take photographs and/or to videotape the lights. A lot of witnesses called newspapers, the police, airports, radio/TV stations, astronomical observatories and - of course - ufologists, since a lot of people simply thought it was just that: a UFO. We at CISU (Centro Italiano Studi Ufologici) got hundreds of calls: journalists, police on patrol, pilots in flight, Carabinieri on duty at airports just wanted us to tell them what it was. The sky phenomenon was indeed long-expected and forecast, I'd rather say it was waited for with a strong expectation by... astronomers (both professional and amateur), just because of its spectacularity: planets Venus and Jupiter in conjuction, at a maximum magnitude. Fearing precisely an undue "UFO fever", the CISU had issued a first release on February 13 on the mailing list UFOITALIA and a further alert was issued on the Internet that same morning, at 6.44 a.m., twelve hours before the flap began. But neither ufologists nor astronomers had forecast that the bright luminosity was to be unexpectedly multiplied by the strong wind that had cleaned the atmosphere and, somewhere, caused refraction effects which made the sky show a very unusual and worrying sight for those who were not already aware of it. That same effect of a sort of "atmospheric lens" had already caused thousands of IFO sightings on New Year first hours of 1979, when Carabinieri and the Police cars even chased Venus (and Jupiter) all over Italy and took pictures of it/them in the sky. The Venus-Jupiter couple is also not new to ufology, since it caused quite a few reports during the great UFO wave of December 1978. On February 17, 1975, that same kind of Venus/Jupiter conjunction caused a UFO flap over a large area in Northern Italy. >The objects were UFOs, not Venus and Jupiter Well, you know, every single UFO sighting has to be evaluated on itself. There may well be single reports on that evening, which were not due to THAT astronomical phenomenon, but the greatest part of those sightings WERE surely Venus and Jupiter. You have to allow for some error margins both in quantitative and in qualitative details, but if you take the task and go out interviewing each witness and checking azimuts and zenits, you'll get quite a consistent pattern, as for every similar flap: a Gauss-like distribution around a central (most probably true) value, with a decreasing numer of cases as each value increasingly differs from it (Gauss queue). It's quite an instructive exercise for somebody claiming to do "the leading italian magazine of UFO research and investigation". Anyway, there's a thumb rule you may apply to this case, as well as to any report you (more probably: someone else) might suspect to be due to stars/planets/moon: 1) check on any astronomy almanac (yet better: use any astronomy software) that Venus and Jupiter were indeed close to each other and prominent in the western sky between 6.30 p.m. and 8 p.m. on February 23, 1999, from the proper latitudes/longitudes; 2) verify with the witnesses the exact direction the lights were; 3) ask them whether they did notice BOTH the two planets (they could have hardly missed 'em) AND the UFOs, OR only noticed the two UFOs; in the first case, you'll have the "null hypothesis" ('twas but the planets) falsified; in the second one, well... you'd have to call for such complex supplementary assumptions as deliberately mischievious aliens putting their spaceships right in front of the two planets as seen from exactly the witnesses... Another indication in the same sense should be the fact that astronomers all over Italy were there skywatching and saw the lights, and photographed them, and are positive that they were just that, i.e. two of the most prominent planets. Of course, you might also cry "cover-up" by that ugly thing - you know - "official science", but I won't believe that you'd dare to suggest all those hundreds amateur astronomers are all part of the conspiracy, would you? Well, if you happen to glance over astronomy newsgroups, you'll hear them having fun and joking at those UFO buffs who cried "UFO", and blaming "ufologists" (expecially some "leading UFO magazine") for not caring to teach readers how to tell wheat from stuff. As far as the CISU is concerned, we did our homework, but the same cannot be said of others who - not unexpectedly - keep on complaining against those bad "IFOlogists only busy at studying weather balloons" (guess who?). Ah, I won't even mention the fact that several (serious-minded) ufologists also had the (easy) chance to witness the eerie sight on Tuesday evening and had no trouble at confirming it was Jupiter and Venus, though VERY awfully bright. Nor will I add that those two planets had been perfectly visible on the previous evenings, as have been on the (two) following ones, depending only upon cloud coverage for you (or me) to be able to see them (as I did, in fact). >Among the sightings reported to "Notiziario UFO", primarily >contradicting the statement is Mr. Filippo Bigazzi's, from San >Giovanni Valdarno, who noticed and videoed, in the presence of >his relatives, two stationary lights which intermittently >appeared and disappeared. It escapes to me why that description would contradict the identification: surely not the intermittence, I hope (I will not bore you with meteorological info, but would urge you to go out and do some ordinary sky watching, in that case). >Meanwhile at 7.20 PM in Ravenna, Mr. >Stefano Matteucci, observed by telescope a three lights >formation, with atop a darker square shaped object. Another >video was shot in Venice by Mr. Federico Provoleri who caught a >bright moving object. What has it all to do with those two, motionless lights in the western sky? It reminds me of that time that when I wrote an article in "Notiziario UFO" (yes, the mag you are now editor of, but it was 20 years ago) and revealed that Venus was the cause for a celebrated UFO sighting in Naples, on December 18, 1978: a local ufologist tried to contradict me by claiming that a ship in the bay had been hit by something underwater, that morning! What could I say in answer? >The UFO flap >of 23 February takes its place within a context of a sudden >intense series of sightings all over Italy, That may have helped to set the stage for a UFO "reference structure" even for such a seemingly un-ufological sight as two planets. It's not been the first time. It won't be the last. But it's a real shame that people calling themselves ufologists still cannot learn from a 50-years-long history and admit when a planet is not a UFO. Aren't there enough high strangeness reports, that you have to ride one-hour-long sightings of some motionless light in the sky? Ufology is much more a serious matter than that. Best regards Edoardo Russo Centro Italiano Studi Ufologici CISU, Casella postale 82, 10100 Torino - tel 011-3290279 - fax 011-545033 http://www.arpnet.it/~ufo e-mail: edoardo.russo@torino.alpcom.it
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 26 Abduction Researcher Email Address Needed From: Leanne Martin <leanne_martin@hotmail.com> Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 14:28:21 PST Fwd Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 08:05:50 -0500 Subject: Abduction Researcher Email Address Needed G'day List Would anyone have the email contact details of: Budd Hopkins, David Jacobs, Josh Goldstein or Ken Ring? I am following a line of abduction research and would like to hear from any interested abduction researchers and or abductees. Regards, Leanne Martin Computer Engineer @ WANG GLOBAL Australia
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 26 Re: South Australian UFO Report From: Greg St. Pierre <StrmNut@aol.com> Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 18:11:29 EST Fwd Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 08:18:17 -0500 Subject: Re: South Australian UFO Report >From: Diane Harrison <tkbnetw@fan.net.au> >To: UFO UpDates <updates@globalserve.net>, >Subject: South Australian UFO Report >Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 23:48:47 +1000 >I noticed that although the low - level bushes on the side of >the road were swaying violently in a north/south direction, the >surrounding trees did not appear to be affected by any breeze. I seem to recall another case from the UK wherein trees and/or other foliage were seen by a policeman to be violently affected by the close proximity of a UFO. Anyone know of other similar cases? Greg
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 26 Re: A Poststructuralist Take On The UFO Phenomenon From: Michael Christol <mchristo@mindspring.com> Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 19:30:51 -0600 Fwd Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 08:47:09 -0500 Subject: Re: A Poststructuralist Take On The UFO Phenomenon >From: Robert Young <YoungBob2@aol.com> >Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 11:13:19 EST >To: Updates@globalserve.net >Subject: A Poststructuralist Take On The UFO Phenomenon >>Very Good Bob. >>So, where do you think This Dean lady fits in this assessment? >>After all, she is a highly educated Professor at a respected College. >Well, Mike: >I once received an undergraduate degree in English and have >followed the political contortions of the members of the Modern >Language Association during the rise and fall of >Poststructuralism with some small interest. >At this late date, it ain't at all clear that she is in the >first two groups. Most of the Edison, et al. crowd, were >probably in groups 1 or 2. Yes, I would definitely agree with that statment. <g> >Since something over half of adult Americans seem now to >subscribe to an ETH explanation for some UFO reports, I wonder >where that puts them? Of course, by thinking in these terms we >are engaging in poststructuralist "thought". >Clear skies, >Bob Young Ha, ha, ha....very good Bob. You create a delima for the average UFO enthusiast. <G> In other words, we are damned if we do and damned if we don't! <g> Well, since I accept the possibility that since the 1960's, or early 1970's roughly 90 percent of all UFO sightings may well be deep black technological development aircraft, that still leaves me with 10% which could possibly fall in to the ETH or Dimensional Hypothisis as well. Possibly both. Yet, On the History Channel last night, 'Ancient Aliens' proposed that the aliens had been with us from day one. I think that is a very credible hypothesis. I tend to agree that there is enought documentation in virtually every ancient culture to support that theory, if one is "open minded." I found that the arguements of Dr. Thomas McDonough were more incredible that those of the supporters. He likes to suggest that ancient cultures had vivid imaginations, describing scenes of which they had, or allegedly had "NO KNOWLEDGE." Yet, he asserts that these ancient peoples had these capabilities. It makes more sense to a poor boy like myself that these ancient peoples were actually caught between two waring technologies. I wrote a paper in 1995 entitled: 'UFOs And Man, Their Possible Relationship'. I am attatching it* to this for you to take a look at and see what you think of my conjectures back then.<G> [*See following posts -- ebk] Take care Bob. REgards, Mike
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 26 Pt. 1/3 - UFOs And Man, Their Possible From: Michael Christol <mchristo@mindspring.com> Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 19:30:51 -0600 Fwd Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 08:53:22 -0500 Subject: Pt. 1/3 - UFOs And Man, Their Possible UFOs And Man, Their Possible Relationship Mike Christol 4/8/95 What is this thing which we call the 'UFO Phenomena'? What is the relationship between the phenomena and mankind? Why has the phenomena had such an effect on man and yet at the same time, almost totally eluded his attempts to understand it? These are just a few of the questions which plague the serious investigator of the subject of UFOs. It is my intention to try and shed a little light on these questions as well as give a history which links the subject to mans history, both recent and ancient. Ancient? You say. Yes. It appears that this is a subject which reaches back to the very foundation of human history. There is even evidence which tends to support the idea that had it not been for this inter-action between an "outside" intelligence, and the primitive life forms on the planet earth, that man's evolutionary development might have take many thousands or more years to reach the earliest stages of intelligence which our scientists and researchers now accept as the roots of man kinds beginnings. Zecharia Sitchin, is a scholar who from his youth challenged the traditional interpretation of the Bible. Sitchin tells us in his own words, how he came to the conclusions which fifty years later allowed him to write the first of his Earth Chronicles Books, entitled "THE TWELFTH PLANET." "The Old Testament has filled my life from childhood. I was totally unaware of the then raging Evolution versus Bible debates. But as a young schoolboy studying Genesis in its original Hebrew, I created a confrontation of my own. We were reading one day in Chapter VI that when God resolved to destroy Mankind by the Great Flood, 'the sons of the deities', who married the daughters of men were upon the Earth. The Hebrew original named them Nefilim; the teacher explained it meant 'giants'; but I objected: didn't it mean literally 'Those Who Were Cast Down', who had descended to Earth? I was reprimanded and told to accept the traditional interpretation." 1. "Accept the traditional interpretation!" How often have we heard that said? "Take our word for it, we know of what we speak." Well, unfortunately, based on the accumulated evidence by open minded scholars and students of today, they are being forced to accept the idea that they may not know of what they speak. Sitchin's interest in the Nefilim, became an obsession with him. He learned to read and decipher the writings of the Sumerian, Babylonian, Assyrian, Hittite, Canaanite and other ancients texts. 2. Through his study of these ancient languages Sitchin came to the conclusion that the Solar System, as we know it today, did not always exist. In the original evolution of this Solar System, the Earth did not exist. According to these early Sumerian, texts, the Sun brought forth this system slowly but surely. The first planets were Mercury (Mummu) and Tiamat, the water planet. Eventually these two planets were joined by Venus (Lahamu) and Mars (Lahmu). These were followed by the addition of Jupiter (Kishar), Saturn (Anshar), and Pluto (Gaga). The final two planets added to the system were Uranus (Anu) and Neptune (Ea). As you can see, the earth still did not exist, according to the ancient records. When, then did this planet become a part of our present Solar System? According to the Sumerian and Akkadian records, a large rogue planet entered our solar system. As this large planet, about five times the size of the Earth, passed by the Sun, it was captured and put into an elliptical orbit which requires 3600 years to complete one circuit. This large planet became known to the ancients as Marduk. Eventually this planet, moving in a counter clockwise orbit, approached the planet Tiamat, precede by its moons on a collision course. As the moons gravitational forces came in contact with Tiamat, the planet was split in half. One half of the planet spun off into space and was inserted in an orbit closer to the sun, while the other half of the planed became what we now know as the asteroid belt between Mars and Jupiter. When Tiamat was thrown into it's new orbit, it took it's moon (Kingu) with it. This planet eventually settled in the third position from the Sun and became what we today know as our home planet, Earth. As the planet settled from this catastrophic event, the waters drained and filled the low lying areas creating the oceans and seas as they existed in ancient times. Approximately, 400,000 years ago, Astronauts from this rogue planet, i.e., Marduk, appear to have landed on Earth. They approached and landed in what is now known as Mesopotamia, near the Persian Gulf. According to the ancient Sumerian texts, the first Astronaut to land on Earth was known as ENKI. 3 This first landing was followed by a colonization of other astronauts from Marduk. Eventually, the Nefilim moved across the great seas and started to mine the precious metals in Africa. It appears that the metal they needed most was Gold. They allegedly transported it in great cargo shipments back to Marduk, for absorption into their planet's atmosphere. Just why they introduced this into their atmosphere is not made clear, but one might speculate that it may have something to do with their 3600 year elliptical orbit, and possibly the gold in some way helped the planet to maintain heat within it's atmosphere during it's time in the distant areas of the solar system. One thing is evident, however, and that is that the Nefilim became very tired of working the long, arduous hours in those mines. Eventually we are told by the Sumerians that a revolt took place and the Nefilim went on strike and refused to go back into the mines. Since the revolt posed a serious problem for the ruling Nefilim, it was finally decided that they would take the most advanced bi-ped, or Ape-like creature, and through the use of Genetic manipulation, they would "CREATE" a worker to do the hard work in the mines. This creation, supposedly resulted in a primitive "MAN." Let's see what the Sumerians had to say about this: "The drama of Man's creation, it appears, was compounded by a late birth. The 'mixture' of 'clay' and 'blood' was used to induce pregnancy in fourteen birth goddesses. But nine months passed, and the tenth month commenced. 'The period of opening the womb had elapsed.' Understanding what was called for, the Mother Goddess 'performed the midwifery.' That she engaged in some surgical operation emerges more clearly from a parallel text (in spite of it's fragmentation): 'Ninti...counts the months... The destined 10th month they called; The Lady Whose Hand Opens came. With the...she opened the womb. Her face brightened with joy. Her head was covered; ...made an opening; That which was in the womb came forth.' 'Overcome with joy, the Mother Goddess let out a cry.' 'I have created! My hands have made it!' 'How was the creation of Man accomplished? The text 'When the gods as men' contains a passage whose purpose was to explain why the 'blood' of a god had to be mixed into the 'clay.' The 'divine' element required was not simply the dripping blood of a god, but something more basic and lasting. The god that was selected, we are told, had TE.E.MA--a term the leading authorities on the text (W.G. Lambert and A. R. Millard of Oxford University) translate as 'personality.' But the ancient term is much more specific; it literally means 'that which houses that which binds the memory.' Further on, the same term appears in the Akkadian version as etemu, which is translated as 'spirit.'" 4 What all of this appears to be saying is that there was "something in the blood of the god that was the repository of his individuality." This something, which was put through a series of "purifying baths," was "the god's genes." The reason for this mixing of the divine element with the earthly element was spelled out thusly: "In the clay, god and Man shall be bound, to a unity brought together; So that to the end of days the Flesh and the Soul which in a god have ripened-- that Soul in a blood-kinship be bound; As its Sign life shall proclaim. So that this not be forgotten, Let the 'Soul' in a blood-kinship be bound." 5 Was the "clay" with which the godly element mixed and earthly element? If so, then the only possible conclusion is that the sperm of a god, or his genetic material, was inserted into the egg of a lower life form, or, an ape-woman! So it was, according to the Ancient Sumerian writings that primitive man came into being. Because of the nature of his creation, primitive man was a hybrid, thus sterile. This necessitated the Nefilim having to continue the reproductive process until they amassed a large number of these primitive "workers" to replace the "gods" in the mines. Accordingly, however, continued genetic updates to man, eventually resulted in him being able to reproduce offspring himself. Once this occurred, the gods began to look on the female offspring with favor, and thus the stories which we find in the Bible of the "sons of God looking on the daughters of men and finding them fair." Thus they took them for wives and the females conceived and bore offspring which were half human and half Nefilim. So, here from the writings of the early Sumerians, we have the beginnings of the inter-action between what I call NELF (NON EARTHLY LIFE FORMS) and man. From this time on, the gods played an important part in the history of the human race. Virtually every civilization has a recorded history of encounters with what today we call THE UFO PHENOMENA. This may explain as well, why the alleged ABDUCTION PHENOMENA is taking place. It may just be a continued improvement of our species, or it may be that they (the ancient race the Sumerians referred to as gods) are checking large cross sections of humanity in different parts of the world to see what physiological changes have taken place from generation to generation. Is humanity, then just considered to be a lab experiment? I shall now attempt to show that the connection between God and Man did not stop there, but has carried over to us today through many different sources. My main source at this time, however is the Bible. Let me interject something here for clarity. Even though the Bible talks about God in the Singular, in the Old Testament, I am convinced it is a carry over of the earlier Sumerian history. So, when I quote from the Bible and it uses the word "Lord" or "God," try to remember the previous context in which the term applied. These Nefilim were considered God, and Gods by the ancient Sumerians. But to me, we are talking about an ancient Space Traveling Civilization who did what they felt was necessary to set up the Earth Colony and through a long period of time, cultivate it into a thriving planet replete with all manner of animal and Human life. The Old Testament is truly just that, a TESTAMENT, or Testimony to the history of these early colonists on Earth. One of the contacts God made with man which indicates something unusual, was the contact Moses had on Mt. Horeb. Moses had led the flock of sheep of his father-in-law, Jethro, into the desert and eventually wound up at Horeb. While walking on this mount, as described in Exodus 3, vs. 2 through 4, Moses became aware of a "bush" which "burned," but was not consumed. "And the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed. "And Moses said, I will now turn aside, and see this great sight, why the bush is not burnt. "And when the Lord saw the he turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, Here am I." So we see that it appears from this narration, that two beings may have appeared to Moses. Was the bush concealing some type of object which glowed, or appeared to be on fire? It appears that this object was at least large enough to hold one or more person, and possibly the bush, in reality, may have been a thicket. We are not told how the Lord departed from Moses in this case, but there are other incidents in the relationship with Moses, where God inter-acts with Moses in full view of the Israelites. As we know, Moses went to Pharaoh several times after this incident requesting that Pharaoh allow his people to leave Egypt as a free people. Of course Pharaoh, refused and this resulted in a series of plagues, which culminated with the final plague in which Pharaoh's first born son died. After this final plague, Pharaoh allowed the Israelites to leave, but afterward, changed his mind and pursued them into the desert. Guided by the Lord, Moses and the Israelites began their journey to the "promised land," of their deliverance. In the 13th chapter of Exodus, vs 21 and 22, we find the following: "And the Lord went before them by day in a pillar of a cloud, to lead them the way; and by night in a pillar of fire, to give them light; to go by day and night: "He took not away the pillar of the cloud by day, nor the pillar of fire by night, from before the people." In the 14th chapter of Exodus, in vs 19, 20, and 24, we read the following: "And the angel of God, which went before the camp of Israel, removed and went behind them; and the pillar of the cloud went from before their face, and stood behind them: "And it came between the camp of the Egyptians and the camp of Israel; and it was a cloud and darkness to them, but it gave light by night to these: so that the one came not near the other all the night. "And it came to pass, that in the morning watch the Lord looked unto the host of the Egyptians through the pillar of fire and of the cloud, and troubled the host of the Egyptians." So we see, that the Lord was within the "Pillar of a cloud," and went before the Israelites to guide their way and protect them. We also see that they were able to travel at night, due to the ability of the "Pillar" to become like "fire" as well. We also notice that there was nothing the pursuing Egyptians could do to interfere with the cloud. When the Egyptians attempted to overtake the Israelites, the "Angel of God," removed the pillar of a cloud from the vicinity of the Israelites and stationed itself before the Egyptians, thus blocking their progress. Once the Israelites started their crossing of the Red Sea, the Egyptians immediately began to pursue them. It was at this time that the Lord troubled them through the "pillar of fire, and of the cloud," as written in vs 23. This trouble we find written in the next verse: "And took off their chariot wheels, that they drave them heavily: so that the Egyptians said, Let us flee from the face of Israel; for the Lord fighteth for them against the Egyptians." So, we see that this was a physical reality, this pillar of a cloud/fire. It actually physically interfered with the chariots and caused the wheels to come off of them. Once the Israelites had completed their crossing of the Red Sea, the waters were allowed to return to their place, and those Egyptians who were in the channel which the Israelites had walked were drowned, including their horses. From here, Moses and the Israelites continue their journey until
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 26 Pt. 2/3 - UFOs And Man, Their Possible Relationship From: Michael Christol <mchristo@mindspring.com> Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 19:30:51 -0600 Fwd Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 08:55:13 -0500 Subject: Pt. 2/3 - UFOs And Man, Their Possible Relationship "Ye have seen what I did unto the Egyptians, and how I bare you on eagles' wings, and brought you unto myself." "HOW I BARE YOU ON EAGLES' WINGS!" So, here we have an indication that Moses was physically lifted up and carried to the Mount by some type of flight. This is not the last occasion where God approaches Moses from the air. In the 9th verse we read: "And the Lord said unto Moses, Lo, I come unto thee in a thick cloud, that the people may hear when I speak with thee, and believe thee for ever. And Moses told the words of the people unto the Lord." After the discussion finished, Moses returned to his people and warned them that the Lord God would be descending upon the Mountain, and if any of them should touch or set foot on the mountain while the Lord was there, they would die. Even the beast would die if it touched the mountain during the sojourn of the Lord. What type of condition was in place that would cause the death of a human or beast, by the simple touch of the place where this abode of the Lord had descended? Are we talking about some type of radiation exposure, here? A field effect of some type? Remember, all they had to do was touch or set foot on any part of the mountain during God's sojourn, to die. Quite a no- trespassing sign, was it not? On the third day, we are told in Chapter 19, the 16th verse: "there were thunders and lightnings, and a thick cloud upon the mount, and the voice of the trumpet exceeding loud: so that all the people that was in the camp trembled." In verse's 18 through 20 we see the following: "And mount Sinai was altogether on a smoke, because the Lord descended upon it in fire: and the smoke thereof ascended as the smoke of a furnace, and the whole mount quaked greatly. "And when the voice of the trumpet sounded long, and waxed louder and louder, Moses spake, and God answered him by a voice. "And the Lord came down upon mount Sinai, on the top of the mount: and the Lord called Moses up to the top of the mount: and Moses went up." And in the 24th Chapter, vs, 15 through 18 we read: "And Moses went up into the mount, and a cloud covered the mount. "And the glory of the Lord abode upon mount Sinai, and the cloud covered it six days: and the seventh day he called unto Moses out of the midst of the cloud. "And the sight of the glory of the Lord was like devouring fire on the top of the mount in the eyes of the children of Israel. "And Moses went into the midst of the cloud, and gat him up into the mount: and Moses was in the mount forty days and forty nights." So Moses went into the midst of the cloud and was taken up into the mountain, huh? Sounds as though this was definitely more than a simple cloud, composed of water vapor. There are many, many more references to the Lord God appearing to the Israelites and others in the Old Testament. 6. In the Old Testament, we also find recorded, that the patriarch Jacob spent a night in a field outside of Haran and saw "a ladder set up on Earth and its top reaching heavenwards," on which "angels of the Lord" were going up and down. Jacob reportedly saw the Lord, himself at the top of the Ladder. Jacob was afraid, and said: "Indeed, a God is present in this place, and I knew it not.... Indeed, this is none but the Lord's abode and this is the Gateway to Heaven." 7 Here we have what today would be considered a Close Encounter of the third kind. We have a man lying down to sleep in a field, only to awake and find the "abode" of the Lord sitting in the same field, with "a ladder" extended from the earth, to the "gateway to Heaven." In other words, it appears from this description, that the craft was sitting on the ground and a door was open with a ladder extending from the cabin to the earth below, and not only that, but "angels" were seen going up and down that ladder from Heaven to Earth! If that wasn't enough, Jacob saw the Lord, Himself, standing at the top of the Ladder, in Heaven, or His Abode. This sighting, or vision, visibly shook Jacob. It was not something he had been expecting to see. We are then told that in the morning when Jacob awoke from his sleep, that the "Abode," the "ladder," and the "angels" were gone. The experience was so tremendous, that Jacob later said it was good to be there, and set up a pillar with the stone he had used as a pillow on which to sleep. And he poured oil on the pillar and called the name of that place "Beth-el." 8 In the first chapter of the Book of Ezekiel, we read the experience of Ezekiel, the priest, the son of Buzi. In his own words, Ezekiel relates what happened to him. He states that on April 5, in his thirtieth year, that he was among the captives by the river Chebar, and that the heavens were opened, and he saw visions of God. "And I looked, and behold a whirlwind came out of the North, a great cloud, and a fire infolding itself, and a brightness was about it, and out of the midst thereof as the colour of amber, out of the midst of the fire." What Ezekiel has described is a typical UFO sighting. A whirlwind, typical of a spinning motion as reported by many people who see UFOs. "A great cloud, and a fire infolding itself...a brightness was about it...the colour of amber, out of the midst of the fire." Here again typical of UFO descriptions. A cloud with fire surrounding it, the color of amber, or a burnt, redish orange. The rest of the chapter is dedicated to the description of the object and it's occupants. It is clear that Ezekiel was watching something which he had no words to describe. So, it becomes clear, that he is identifying the occupants as part of the object. In other words, he says: "Also out of the midst thereof came the likeness of four living creatures. And this was their appearance; they had the likeness of a man. "And every one had four faces and every one had four wings. "And their feet were straight; and the sole of their feet was like the sole of a calf's foot: and they sparkled like the colour of burnished brass. "And they had the hands of a man under their wings on their four sides and their wings. "Their wings were joined one to another; they turned not when they went; they went every one straight forward. "As for the likeness of their faces, they four had the face of a man, and the face of a lion, on the right side; and they four had the face of an ox on the left side; they four also had the face of an eagle. "Thus were their faces: and their wings were stretched upward; two wings of every one were joined one to another, and two covered their bodies. "And they went every one straight forward: whither the spirit was to go, they went; and they turned not when they went. "As for the likeness of the living creatures, their appearance was like burning coals of fire, and like the appearance of lamps; it went up and down among the living creatures; and the fire was bright, and out of the fire went forth lightning. "And the living creatures ran and returned as the appearance of a flash of lightning. "Now as I beheld the living creatures, behold one wheel upon the earth by the living creatures, with his four faces. "The appearance of the wheels and their work was like unto the colour of a beryl: and they four had one likeness: and their appearance and their work was as it were a wheel in the middle of a wheel. "When they went, they went upon their four sides: and they turned not when they went. "As for their rings, they were so high that they were dreadful; and their rings were full of eyes round about them four. "And when the living creatures went, the wheels went by them: and when the living creatures were lifted up from the earth, the wheels were lifted up. "Whithersoever the spirit was to go, they went, thither was their spirit to go; and the wheels were lifted up over against them: for the spirit of the living creatures was in the wheels. "When those went, these went; and when those stood, these stood; and when those were lifted up from the earth, the wheels were lifted up over against them: for the spirit of the living creature was in the wheels." 9 It can be seen that Ezekiel could not distinguish the difference between the creatures and the vehicle in which they were residing. He inter-acted the two. He described the creatures as having the likeness of a man. Everyone had four faces, or in other words, there were four occupants within each this craft. They had straight feet and wore some type of footware which was similar to cowhide, or leather. It is also apparent that their clothing "sparkled like burnished brass." They also had the hands of a man and the face of a man. It also appears that they had certain strengths or traits which he described as the face of a lion, the face of an ox, and the face of an eagle. We could speculate here that these characteristics were kingly, strong, and of clear vision. But, it would only be speculation. He then goes on to describe the objects themselves as having four wings joined together, which would make them circular, or disk shaped. He also says that the vehicles "turned not," as they went, but when they went, the spirit of the creature went with it. When the vehicles were lifted up, so were the creatures lifted up. When they went, they went as lightning, and were as lamps and burning coals of fire. Here again we see the connection of the fire surrounding or emanating from the energy field around the vehicle. Ezekiel then describes the "rings" which were "so high that they were dreadful; and their rings were full of eyes round about them four." Here he is describing what the copula of the craft, with it's portholes, looked like, usually having some type of coil or rotating ring above and below the portholes. It is quite evident that he is frightened by what he has seen, for in the 28th verse of the first chapter, he ends his writing by saying: "This was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the Lord. And when I saw it, I fell upon my face , and I heard a voice of one that spake." Not only did he feel fear, and fall on his face, but he heard a voice which spoke to him as well. There was an inter-action between these entities and Ezekiel. The Lord, talked with him and gave him a mission to fulfill . This sounds very similar to many of the stories told by modern day "Contactees." As I have said previously, the Bible contains many such accounts. For my last quotation from this inspiring collection of Sacred Books, I will now relate some experiences as related to the Prophet Elijah. Following the theme we have already established, Elijah, a prophet of God was also given the mantle of power, which was symbolized by his mantle, or cloak. With this cloak Elijah, in the presence of his apprentice, Elisha, smote the Jordan River and it parted, allowing them to walk across on dry ground. Once they had crossed the river, Elijah advised Elisha that he would be leaving him. While they were walking, the following event transpired, as found in Second Kings, Chapter Two, verse Eleven: "And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven." That this was an unexpected event to Elisha, was shown in the next verse: "And Elisha saw it, and he cried, My father, my father, the chariot of Israel, and the horsemen thereof. And he saw him no more: and he took hold of his own clothes, and rent them in two pieces." I would think this would be an understandable reaction to seeing one's mentor taken away in such an unexpected manner. So, again we see the appearance of the "Whirlwind." And the fiery chariot is again demonstrating the glowing field which manifests around these flying objects. But there are other indications that the "God" which Elijah served was connected with a very advanced technological system. On at least three occasions Elijah called for God to send down fire from heave. The first occasion occurred when Elijah confronted the priests of Baal. He invited them to kill two bullocks and for the priests to cut their bullock into pieces and lay them on an alter of wood with no fire under them. They were then to pray for their god, Baal, to consume the offering. This went on all afternoon and cry as they might, nothing happened and their sacrifice was not consumed. Elijah, on the other hand, built himself an alter from twelve stones, one for each of the twelve tribes of Israel, and placed his sacrifice on it. He then called for them to fill four barrels of water and pour it on the sacrifice. Having done this, Elijah then called for the Lord God of Abraham, Isaac, and Israel to hear him and accept his sacrifice. Then, as stated in the 1 Kings, 18, vs. 38: "Then the fire of the Lord fell, and consumed the burnt sacrifice, and the wood, and the stones, and the dust, and licked up the water that was in the trench." In 2 Kings, 1, vs 10 through 12 it is stated: "And Elijah answered and said to the captain of fifty, If I be a man of God, then let fire come down from heaven and consume thee and thy fifty. And there came down fire from heaven, and consumed him and his fifty." The same scenario is played out in the next two verses as another Captain and fifty soldiers came to take Elijah to their king. 10 So, here we see three instances where Elijah called down fire from heaven. Heaven, as we have established, in Jacobs vision, was in some type of vehicle. What we are looking at, in my opinion is similar to what is currently projected in the Si-Fi series Star Trek. Phaser beams which are capable of being focused on very small targets are fired from space craft high above the planet, out of sight. Sixty years ago, such ideas would have been ridiculous, however, today, it is accepted science. Phaser beams, fiery chariots, whirlwinds, pillar of a cloud, pillar of fire, dark clouds with terrible lightnings descending on mountains, of which it is unlawful for anyone to set foot on while the cloud is there, at threat of death. How many more examples do we need, to see that the prophets of the Bible were dealing with something more than just wispy, nonphysical spirits? HISTORICAL CHRONOLOGY Let us then look at what I consider to be a long list of sightings which eventually led up to the modern era of Ufology, which began in June, 1947, and continues even today. "In 90 B.C., over the Roman township of Spoletum, or Spoletium, in Umbria, 65 miles north of Rome, a globe of fire appeared in the sky with terrific noise, and burning in the north. A globe of fire, golden in colour, fell to the earth from the sky and was seen to gyrate. It became greater in size and was seen to rise from the earth and travel east, obscuring the disc of the sun with it's magnitude.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 26 Pt. 3/3 - UFOs And Man, Their Possible Relationship From: Michael Christol <mchristo@mindspring.com> Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 19:30:51 -0600 Fwd Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 08:59:43 -0500 Subject: Pt. 3/3 - UFOs And Man, Their Possible Relationship "B.C. 216: Things like ships were seen in the sky over Italy. At Apri (180 Roman miles east of Rome, in Apulia), a round shield was seen in the sky. The moon fought with the sun. "B.C. 213: At Hadria, (Gulf of Venicd), the strange spectacle of men with white clothing was seen in the sky. They seemed to stand around an alter, and were robed in white. "B.C. 166: At Cassinum (S. Germany), the sun shown at night for several hours. "B.C. 99: In Tarquinia (about 52 miles north-west of Rome), there fell in different places a thing like a flaming torch, and it came suddenly from the sky. Towards sunset, a round object like a globe, or round or circular shield took its path in the sky, from west to east. "B.C. 90: At sunrise there came a terrific noise in the sky, and a globe of fire appeared burning in the north, near Aenarie, now called Ischia, in the Bay of Naples. 65 miles north of Rome, in Umbria, a globe of fire, of golden colour, fell to the earth gyrating. It then seemed to increase in size, rose from the earth, and ascended into the sky, where it obscured the disc of the sun, with it's brilliance. It revolved towards the eastern quadrant of the sky. "B.C. 58 Near old Rome, Lycosthenes says: 'Lights were seen in the sky, and strange noises heard. Flesh rained like snow from heaven, which in great goblets were caught by all kinds of birds flying to and fro, and they caught it in their beaks and talons in the air, before it reached the ground. The residue, which fell down and lay a long time abroad in the city and fields, was found to have neither its colour nor odour changed, which is contrary to the wont of stale flesh or meat.' "A.D. 98: At Tarquinia, an old town in Campania, Italy, a burning shield passed over the sky at Rome, at sunset. It came sparkling form the west and pasted to the east. "A.D. 348: A terrible sign appeared in the sky, shaped like a pillar. It was in the time of the Roman Emperor, Theodosius. "A.D. 383: Strange lights were seen in the sky in the days of Emperor Theodosius. On a sudden, a bright globe appeared at midnight. It shown brilliantly near the day star (planet, Venus), about the circle of the zodiac. This globe shown little less brilliantly than the planet, and little by little, a great number of other glowing orbs drew near the first globe. The spectacle was like a swarm of bees flying around the bee-keeper, and the light of these orbs was as if they were dashing violently against each other. Soon, they blended together into one awful flame, and bodied forth to the eye as a horrible two-edged sword. The strange globe which was first seen now appeared like the pommel to a handle, and all the little orbs, fused with the first, shown as brilliantly as the first globe. This sword burned for forty days, and then vanished. "A.D. 398: A thing like a burning globe, presenting s sword, shown brilliantly in the sky over the city of Byzantium (modern Istanbul or Constantinople, Turkey). It seemed almost to tough the earth from the zenith. Such a thing was never reported to have been seen before by men. "A.D. 577: A thing like a lance passed across the sky, from north to west, over France. "A.D. 773: A red cross appeared after sunset, in the sky over England. "A.D. 1118: A cross and a moon shining white appeared in the sky, in France. "A.D. 1150: A cross appeared in the sky at noon, in England. "A.D. 1269: On December 6, at twilight, a strange brightness, shaped like a cross gave light from high in the air and shown down on the city of Cracow, Poland, and on all the Country. "A.D. 1290: At Byland, or Begeland Abby, in the North Yorkshire Riding, while the abbot and monks were in the refectorium, a flat, round, shining silvery object---discus, in the record--- flew over the abbey, and caused the utmost terror. "A.D. 1322: In the first hour of the night of Nov.4 (after 7 PM>) there was seen in the sky over Uxbridge, England, a pile (pillar) of fire the size of a small boat, pallid and livid in colour. It rose from the south, crossed the sky with a slow and grave motion, and went north. Out of the front of the pile, a fervent red flame burst forth with great beams of light. Its speed increased, and it flew through the air...Many beholders saw it in collision, and there came blows as of a fearful combat, and sounds of crashes were heard at a distance. "A.D. 1387: In November and December of this year, a fire in the sky, like a burning and revolving wheel, or round barrel of flame, emitting fire from above, and others in the shape of a long fiery beam, were seen through a great deal of the winter, in the country of Leicester, England, and in Northamptonshire. "A.D. 1479: In Arabia, a comet was seen like a sharp beam set with points, with the form of a scythe. (Sounds like the modern triangular or crescent design.) 11 ....These reports do not stop here, in antiquity, but continue up until the Twentieth Century, where the phenomena began to manifest itself in greater numbers on a global scale. Due to technological advances in air power, etc., the phenomena was now considered to be technological, rather than the acts of gods and demons. But, who was operating the devices? From where did they originate? These were some of the questions which the average man as well as the scientist and the military/government began to ask. There are reports of UFO sightings and alleged contacts with government leaders which date back to pre WW 11 times. But, we will not deal with that aspect of the phenomena at this time, but pick up with the modern age of UFOLOGY, which began on June 28, 1947, when a business man by the name of Kenneth Arnold spotted a formation of disks flying above Mount Ranier in the State of Washington. When Kenneth Arnold landed, he was greeted by a group of newspaper reporters, who questioned him about his radio report to the control tower about his sighting. Kenneth told the reporters that the only description which he could think of which would best describe the motion of the objects he had seen was that of a saucer skipping across water. One of the reporters then responded that the objects were "FLYING SAUCERS." Thus the public became aware of the presence of some type of physical vehicle which allegedly did not originate on this planet. "Ten days later, on July 8, 1947, the Public Information Office at the Roswell Army Air Field released a statment that said the remains of a 'flying disc' had been recovered from a ranch near Corona, New Mexico. Within hours, however, this story was replaced by the Pentagon's official account that the disc was simply a misidentified radar reflector from a downed weather balloon. And so began the government's successful fourty-eight year conspiracy to conceal the truth." 12 This press release, which stirred the flames of curiosity around the world, was brought about because of a rancher who discovered a massive amount of wreckage strewn across his ranch, the day after a sever thunder storm drenched the area. Two weeks later, this rancher, Mac Brazel related his story to the Sheriff in Roswell. After Brazel had left, the sheriff called the Roswell Army Air Field and related the story to the officer who answered the phone. As a result of this phone call, Major Jesse Marcel, Intelligence Officer for the 509th Bomber Group, the only Atomic Bomb wing in existence at that time, along with a Counter Intelligence Corp Man, called Cavitt, proceeded to the Brazel ranch and collected as much of the debris as they could carry in their vehicles. Marcel did not go directly to the air field, but due to the late hour, went home. He took much of the material he had collected and spread it out on the kitchen table. He then woke his wife and son and showed the material to them. His son, Jesse Marcel, Jr., noticed that an I-beam appeared to have markings of some type on it. Marcel demonstrated that the material, although thin as the foil in a cigarette pack, was stronger than any known metal he had ever seen. He tried to cut it...with no success. He also crumpled it up in a ball, only to have it return to it's original shape. His wife commented that it felt as though she didn't have any- thing in her hands, it was so light. The next morning, Marcel took the material to the base, and was then ordered to fly it to Fort Worth, Texas, the home of the Eighth Air Force. While there, Brig. General Roger Ramey called a press conference, and told Major Marcel not to say anything. He then posed Major Marcel with the wreckage of a Radar Corner Reflector balloon and told the press that the crashed flying saucer was in reality nothing more than the balloon. Major Marcel knew that what he was posing with was not the material he had picked up on the ranch of Mac Brazel. But, because he had been ordered to remain silent, he could not say so. This information became public knowledge as a result of the research of Stanton Freidman and William Moore, and was first published in a book called "THE ROSWELL INCIDENT," by Charles Berlitz and William L. Moore. Stanton Freidman later discovered other witnesses as he traveled around the country giving his "FLYING SAUCERS ARE REAL" lectures at colleges. While lecturing at LSU in Batton Rouge, Louisiana, on February 20, 1978, Freidman heard someone say: "The person you really ought to talk to is Jesse Marcel. He handled pieces of one of those things." 13 Freidman later called information and asked for Jesse Marcel. He received his number in Houma, Louisiana and called him to arranged an interview. It was at this interview that the details of the crash and recovery of a flying disk finally came to light. Though the story had been reported in THE ROSWELL INCIDENT, there had been no interview with any of those first hand witnesses to the material found at the crash site. From this interview, the inside story began to emerge and the CRASH AT ROSWELL, as it is now known, flooded the consciousness of people all across North America as well as Europe and parts of Asia. I will not go into the establishment of the Governments' attempt to cover up this information...that is a story for another paper. I will only say, that had the government not chosen the route it took, we might well have a different understanding of our roll as humans, in the Cosmos. Over the past forty-eight years, the UFO phenomena has gone through several phases. In the late forties and early fifties we were introduced to the CONTACTEES. These individuals claimed to have made contact with Alien Brothers from Mars and Venus, and virtually every other known planet in our Solar System, as well as planets allegedly hidden behind the Sun. Needless to say, this facet of the phenomena was greeted with scorn by the serious investigators of the UFO. However, there were some early photos and film footage, that despite their best efforts at exposing them as fakes, have managed to remain unexplained. In the early sixties, the first of what was to become known as the ABDUCTION PHENOMENON occurred. This encounter was reported in the book THE INTERRUPTED JOURNEY and was the story of Betty and Barney Hill. The story unfolds as follows: "On the night of September 19, 1961, Betty and Barney Hill were driving toward their home in Portsmouth, New Hampshire from Canada via Route 3 through the White Mountains. Betty noticed a bright light which seemed to be moving, and they stopped several times to look at it through binoculars. Finally they discerned a large craft with a double row of windows and after stopping the car, Barney looked at the craft as it hovered over some nearby trees and saw perhaps six figures looking out of the windows. They started to drive away and noticed a beeping sound coming from the trunk, and felt a tingling sensation and drowsiness. Another series of beeps aroused them and they discovered they had traveled 35 miles and could not recall what had happened in between. After arriving home, Barney noticed a rash on his lower abdomen and that his shoes were scuffed. Betty discovered round, shiny spots on the trunk of the car, which caused a compass to swing wildly when brought near. Ten days later Betty began having nightmares in which she and Barney had been taken aboard a flying saucer and examined, but it was not until two years later that they both underwent hypnosis in an attempt to find out what happened that night. Separately, they recounted a story of being taken aboard a space- craft shortly after the first set of beeps. They could communicate with the aliens without speech, and described them as humanoid, with large eyes that reached around to the side of the head, no nose, and a mouth that was a slit without lip muscles. After the beings had performed the physical examinations, the Hills were released and told they would remember nothing of the experience. As an aftermath of the case, Betty reported that she had been shown a map of the alien's home star group although she was not able to understand it. Under hypnosis she drew the map, in which the stars were connected by lines possibly suggesting trade routes. After several years of research an amateur astronomer, Marjorie Fish, found a star pattern similar to Betty's. The main star is Zeta Reticuli, so this case is now frequently referred to by that title. Although Betty had drawn her map in 1964, the Fish pattern could not have been known until publication of the 1969 edition of Catalog of Nearby Stars. Other astronomers dispute Fish's findings, however, and note that unless one connects her stars like Betty did, the star patterns themselves bear little resemblance to each other. Betty had observed in 1965 that her stars resembled the constellation Pegasus, and some suggest that there are at least three other patterns that would serve just as well." 14 Since this first known abduction, back in 1961, there have allegedly been thousands upon thousands of people who have come forward with tales of such abductions by non-earthly life forms. Did these events really take place on a physical plane of reality? Were they just hallucinations, created in the fabric of the human psyche? These alleged abductions have been reported by people from all walks of life, including firemen, policemen, doctors, lawyers, college professors, housewives, factory workers, etc., etc., etc.. These individuals pretty much describe the same thing. Physical examinations on some type of a table in a sterile room or atmosphere, which is totally foreign to them. During these examinations, the abductee reports the taking of skin scrapings, hair samples, mucus from the nasal membranes, sperm samples in men and ovum in women. In many cases, people report being taken directly from their beds, while they sleep, and floated through walls, windows, etc., into a waiting "ship," or "craft." Once the examinations are completed, the abductee is either given a tour of the craft or put back where s/he was taken from, with the admonition that they would not remember what had happened, or that they would not remember for a long period of time, and the memories would return, slowly. There have been cases where female abductees reported being impregnanated by their abductors, with physical examination later verifing that they were pregnant. Later, however, during the first trimester, the aliens would return and remove the fetus. On another occasion, the female would again be taken and presented with a small "hybrid" child. The aliens would hand her the child and indicate that they wanted the abductee to hold and love the child. It appears that the purpose of this was to help the child bond with it's biological mother and give it a sense of security and being loved. To my knowledge, there is no physical proof to verify any of the above statements. However, there does appear to be one possible avenue which we could logically traverse. In the first part of this paper, it was stated that these Gods came to earth to mine the natural elements to transport back to their home world. They later created a life form to work in their place so they would not have to. According to those who have allegedly interacted with these beings, it appears that they have degraded to a state of physical decay. As a result, based on the information which these abductees have imparted, it could be that these same alien species, or at least their ancestors, are now turning to the species which they created in the beginning of human history, to now restore their dying race to health. Or at least create a "New" race of descendents, combining the genes of humans and aliens for the survival of one or both species. As in the beginning, so in the end... "And God said...Let us create man in our own image, after our likeness..." So from the dust of the earth, God molded man's body, and "breathed the breath life into his nostrils, and man became a Living Soul." Male and female created he them. 15 So it seems that since that first beginning, God, in one form or another has watched over the advances of mankind. Now, has mankind been given the opportunity to return the favor and preserve those who first gave him life? Maybe one day we will have the answer. Until then, we can only speculate... END.... Mike Christol 4/8/95
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 26 The Millennium Report: STS-61 UFO Footage From: Paul Anderson - TMP / CPR-Canada <psa@direct.ca> Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 19:22:16 -0800 Fwd Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 09:20:10 -0500 Subject: The Millennium Report: STS-61 UFO Footage The Millennium Report The News Service of The Millennium Project February 25, 1999 _____________________________ In This Report: UFO Footage from STS-61 (Hubble Telescope Repair Mission) - An Exclusive Report from The Millennium Project By Paul Anderson Director In light of recent new interest in and coverage of the incredible yet controversial UFO video footage from the space shuttle STS-48 and STS-80 missions, I have decided to re-release some related information on footage from another misson, STS-61, the famous Hubble Telescope Repair Mission in December, 1993. TMP is in possession of footage from this mission, all recorded from the live NASA feed, which is similar in many aspects to the footage from the two previously mentioned missions. Please note that this case was made public and available to anyone who was interested at the time, although we didn't have the internet and web accessibility that we do now. As mentioned below, we received little or no response at the time. A few days ago I read the recent news posting by Bill Hamilton of Skywatch International regarding similar lack of response to their initial discovery of the STS-80 footage back in 1996, portions of which were just aired on NBC's Confirmation special on February 17, 1999. After viewing the tape again, I decided that perhaps it was time to "re-open" the case as it were, given the similarities between what was videotaped in all three missons, in order to increase public exposure and perhaps finally get proper analysis done. As with STS-80 and STS-48, this footage is compelling, even if not "conclusive". It will be praised by some and slammed by others, I am sure. A brief summary: I was formerly the Vancouver director for MUFON / UFO*BC at the time, 1993 (I have since become an independent researcher, founder of The Millennium Project, although I am still also the Canadian director for Circles Phenomenon Research Canada), when an associate of mine who was a programming manager at one of our local cable TV stations, and also a (former) MUFON investigator, alerted me to some footage he had downloaded from the Hubble Telescope Repair Mission. The entire live NASA feed was recorded, and virtually every second of the footage was scanned, looking for anything unusual. There are at least 13 "events" showing possible unusual activity. All of these I still have on an original station-produced dupe of the special broadcast he set up for one of our local cable programs. One sequence shows a "disc" with dark centre (similar to STS-80). Other sequences show variations of "strobing" or "pulsating" lights. They appear to "flash" on and off in a more or less regular pattern, unlike (?) tumbling space junk and often appear to maintain position relative to the shuttle / telescope. Verification of this would require detailed analysis. If you watch carefully the footage from STS-80 of the three objects close together in space near the earth's limb you'll notice that one of the object which is moving appears to "pulsate". This is similar to some of the footage from STS-61. Other sequences show fast or very slow moving objects moving across the picture, in one instance resembling "projectiles". Event #1: Bright, fast moving object crossing view of Earth in nightime shot over Gulf of Mexico Event #2: Bright "flashes" below shuttle, over Houston area. (Probably lightning?). Event #3: Two fast moving "projectiles" move diagonally across screen, one following the other, in similar trajectory and direction and at (apparently) similar speed. Event #4: One bright object moving horizontally across screen, another light "flashing" in distance, out beyond (?) the telescope itself (view of telescope in distance after it was released from shuttle). Event #5: Slow moving light "flashing" out past shuttle (view of open cargo bay). Second object "flashing" brightly. Third (non flashing) object slowly approaches the second flashing object. Limb of earth now in clear view; no stars are visible in background. Event #6: Bright, slow moving object approaches limb of earth. Night time shot (low light camera). Background stars appear to move "away" from limb of earth; object moves in opposite direction. Event #7: Dim "flashing" light in space behind astronauts working on telescope. Event #8: Three or four "strobing" lights out beyond telescope. Another bright object on other side of screen. Event #9: (when camera cuts away from event #8) Couple of objects moving behind astronauts as they work on telescope. Event #10: (when camera cuts back again to view in event #8) Two objects "strobing", in an alternating manner and maintaining position; third dimmer object moving away from them. Telescope in full view. Event #11: Bright object moving slowly behind astronauts working on telescope. Event #12: Bright object near limb of earth, slowly moving downward. Event #13: "Disk" with dark centre seen as camera zooms in on region of space near earth. Camera artifact? Similar to footage from STS-80. These events were sometimes filmed during periods of little or no shuttle activity and often the camera will pan off when events are occurring. I don't know if anyone else has documented the same footage we did or not. I have heard of very little coverage by anybody of any of this except for an occassional passing reference to possibly some odd footage from this mission, but no detailed reports, etc. In any case, as with Bill Hamilton, we also "put out the word" on this, and sent out a few VHS copies to select researchers, and received little if any response other than mostly local interest. We subsequently moved on to other things, and the matter was relegated to the sidelines and then eventually forgotten. We considered the footage to probably not be as possibly significant as first thought, given the lack of feedback. After subsequent viewing, I don't necessarily agree with all assessments made in the taped program (as presented by my associate); I do feel though that a number of these "events" are unusual enough to warrant further investigation, in particular the "strobing" effects and "projectiles". Also, my former associate is no longer involved in this research and dropped out of the whole "UFO scene" some time ago. At this time, I do not have the software to put still frames or clips from the video on the web site. However viewing this footage, a copy can be made available or a viewing session may be arranged. TMP is seeking qualified video analysis experts to examine this footage; preliminary arrangements for this on one front are being made via researchers Bill Hamilton and Tom King; anyone else interested in doing analysis or know of someone who can, please contact me. Paul Anderson Director The Millennium Project Suite 202 - 2086 West 2nd Avenue, Vancouver, BC V6J 1J4 Tel / Fax: 604.731.8522 E-Mail: psa@direct.ca ______________________ The Millennium Report is the news service of The Millennium Project, an independent research organization initiated in January 1999 as an alternative source of news and information to the maintream media. TMP was founded by future studies researcher Paul Anderson, also director of Circles Phenomenon Research Canada. TMR is updated weekly or as breaking news develops. This free e-mail summary is available by subscription; to be added to or removed from the mailing list, send your request, including either "subscribe TMR" or "unsubscribe TMR" and e-mail address to: psa@direct.ca A web edition of TMR, with this report plus previous news listings, is available on the TMP web site. Where possible, external links are provided directly to original sources. If a link is no longer working or a document is unavailable, please notify TMP by e-mail at psa@direct.ca See the TMP web site for complete news and information updates: Main Web Site (frames): http://persweb.direct.ca/psa The Millennium Report: http://persweb.direct.ca/psa/tmr.html Special Research Projects: http://persweb.direct.ca/psa/srp.html _____________________________ =A9 TMP, 1999 For further information or correspondence, contact: Paul Anderson Founder / Director THE MILLENNIUM PROJECT Main Web Site (frames): http://persweb.direct.ca/psa The Millennium Report: http://persweb.direct.ca/psa/tmr.html Special Research Projects: http://persweb.direct.ca/psa/srp.html Director CIRCLES PHENOMENON RESEARCH CANADA Affiliate of Circles Phenomenon Research International Main Web Site (frames): http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Cavern/3310 1999 Updates: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Cavern/3310/1999.html Representative BLT RESEARCH, INC. Suite 202 - 2086 West 2nd Avenue, Vancouver, BC V6J 1J4 Tel / Fax: 604.731.8522 E-Mail: psa@direct.ca
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 26 Re: Fireball/Airplane Crash/UFO? From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@YorkU.CA> Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 22:50:41 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time) Fwd Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 09:24:47 -0500 Subject: Re: Fireball/Airplane Crash/UFO? Hi everyone. Below is a forwarded e-mail from Jeff Westover which suggests that this same object was also observed many hundreds of miles to the west of Toronto. A followup e-mail from Jeff informed me that details about this sighting can be found in the Muskegon edition of MLIVE (Michigan online newspaper) at the web site below. http://mu.mlive.com/news/index.ssf?/news/stories/mmeteo$01.frm Nick Balaskas ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 12:42:50 -0800 (PST) From: Jeff Westover <frequentflier66@yahoo.com> To: nikolaos@YorkU.CA Subject: Fireball Nick, The same reports of a fireball/airplane crash came from the western shores of Michigan (around Muskegon). According to yesterday's news on Central Michigan University Public Radio (Mt Pleasant, MI), police were swamped with phone calls about the same type of event at the same approximate time (6:30 am). Jeffrey S. Westover Mt Pleasant, Michigan == Enter into the Night Of Light Art Gallery at http://www.crystaltower.com/jeffw/
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 26 Re: Black's Interesting Offer to Maccabee From: bruce maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com> Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 23:11:28 -0500 Fwd Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 09:28:34 -0500 Subject: Re: Black's Interesting Offer to Maccabee >Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 12:55:04 -0600 >To: updates@globalserve.net >From: Glenn Joyner <infohead@airmail.net> >Subject: Black's Interesting Offer to Maccabee >I have seen several responses to Jerry Black's open letter to >Whitley Strieber, and have printed and forwarded them to him. >I'm sure he will appreciate your comments. One early commentator >to that piece was Bruce Maccabee. Jerry has dictated and asked >me to post for him a response to Mr. Maccabee's comments. >Glenn ----- >An Open Letter to Bruce Maccabee >From Jerry Black >February, 1999 >During the next 90 days, Mr. Maccabee, I will be placing my >final report on the Ed Walters Gulf Breeze sightings on my >Internet website. I will be discussing, at length, all of the >main issues of the Ed Walters case. I will show anyone and >everyone why this case has been proven conclusively to be a >hoax. <snip> I'm sure that everyone anxiously awaits your proof. And, by the way, I hope your proof also includes proof that the January 8, 1990 photos by Ed, and other photos and videos by him, are also hoaxes, because it would be, perhaps, unimaginable that Ed faked everything from Nov. 11, 1987 through May 1, 1988 but took valid photos or real UFOs after that.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 26 Heading Down Under From: Roy Hale <roy.hale@virgin.net> Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 12:51:51 -0000 Fwd Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 13:37:04 -0500 Subject: Heading Down Under Hi, I will be arriving in Australia the first week in April and I would like if possible some recommendations for specific areas where UFOs are seen regularly. I am staying up the Sapphire Coast (Truro:Merimbula) and would be most grateful if any of my Australian colleagues could get back to me with any such data. I will be staying there for 1 month, so I am hoping to have some excellent skywatches, with, hopefully, a few sightings. Regards,
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 26 Re: South Australian UFO Report From: Mark Cashman <mcashman@ix.netcom.com> Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 11:45:58 -0500 Fwd Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 13:46:48 -0500 Subject: Re: South Australian UFO Report >From: Greg St. Pierre <StrmNut@aol.com> >Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 18:11:29 EST >To: updates@globalserve.net >Subject: Re: South Australian UFO Report >I seem to recall another case from the UK wherein trees and/or >other foliage were seen by a policeman to be violently affected >by the close proximity of a UFO. >Anyone know of other similar cases? Greg - One of the classics of this sort of case is documented at http://www.temporaldoorwar.com/ufo/report/470813.htm The case is multiple witness (all witnesses interviewed by press), close range (300 feet) with trees swirling underneath a rapidly passing, terrain-following disc. There were two groups of witnesses which observed the object from different perspectives. A "shockwave" case (single witness), which may be a related effect, is http://www.temporaldoorway.com/ufo/report/650713.htm ------ Mark Cashman, creator of The Temporal Doorway at http://www.temporaldoorway.com - Original digital art, writing, and UFO research - UFO cases, analysis, classification systems, and more... http://www.temporaldoorway.com/ufo.htm ------
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 26 DRB Concerns About Meddling Ufologists From: Donald Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca> Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 13:04:15 -0300 Fwd Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 13:50:39 -0500 Subject: DRB Concerns About Meddling Ufologists Hi List, Coming home at lunch I heard a news report on the car radio that two Defence Research Board [a quasi military/private concern] researchers working out of Montreal had sent an email to the Prime Minister's Office in Canada expressing their concerns about private/amateur UFO researchers possibly endangering this planet with a possible alien invasion as a result of their amateur reseach. Apparently the PMO's office has replied stating that it is causing them no real concern. The Defence Research Board has been operating in this country for over 50 years and is a force to contend with. it is an intregal part of the military reseach community and I've personally run into them during my investigations more that once...mostly over Shag harbour. It is more than a think-tank but actively devises weapons and ideas for weapons with and for the military in this country and probably NATO countries as well. So this letter to the PM raises a few questions. 1] Is this serious. 2] If so, is this an admission then that the DRB is actively pursuing research on UFOs. We know they are but can't prove it. 3] Do they know something we don't know about the sensitivity on the subject of other life forms and in what area-the crafts themselves, the abduction field etc. 4] Was this a ploy by these two to leak the possibility that the DRB is much more involved in this field than we thought. 5] Why just pick on us, why not SETI. They seem to be more active in seeking out alien life forms than us. There are likely other question others may pose, but I've got to get back to work. Someone might run across this story on the wire services. If they do could they please inform us. Best, Don Ledger
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 26 Re: Pope On A Rope From: Andy Roberts <Brigantia@compuserve.com> Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 12:27:03 -0500 Fwd Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 14:05:46 -0500 Subject: Re: Pope On A Rope >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net> >Subject: Re: Pope On A Rope >Date: Thu, 25 Feb 99 10:15:52 PST >Yeah, whatever you say, Andrew. I hold the strange view that >human beings are complex and that their actions, even if >misguided, cannot always be laid to venal motives, though I >can understand why it would serve your ideological purposes >to believe so in Nick Pope's case. No one is disputing your strange views, Jerome. Only one particular action by one particular person involved in ufology. >Having met Pope casually and spent time with him once at a UFO >conference in Leeds, I agree that "his general ufological >knowledge is ... thin." At least we agree on something! >That, however, does not speak to his >honesty and credibility any more than does his understandable >reluctance to associate himself with something so ridicule- >inducing as a perceived abduction experience. It speaks volumes about his research into and expectations of the UFO field though. The fact that as an author making big moolah he chooses to be 'tactical' about his alleged 'abduction' suggests lots. You can't wiggle out of that with cod-sincerity Jerome. >All we know so far is that Pope had what he apparently suspects >was some sort of extraordinary experience which he wanted to put >on record No - we don't even know that. All we know is he has claimed that, then retracted it, then claimed it again. >and from which he nonetheless wished to distance >himself in public. Until the time, or market, was right. >No further conclusions are possible at this >stage, and it does none of us any credit to pretend otherwise. We must agree to disagree. Happy Trails Andy
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 26 Chat with UFO Lobbyist Stephen Bassett From: Yvonne Hedenland <vonni_h@kirkham.ewind.com> Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 12:00:06 -0600 Fwd Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 14:08:54 -0500 Subject: Chat with UFO Lobbyist Stephen Bassett Live from the Sedona Seminar Join the Politics of UFOs team and Lobbyist Stephen Basett for a special chat this Sunday, Feb 28, at 6pm, PT-- live from Sedona, Arizona--on the current swing to get Congress off it's duff and back to work on the issues of UFO secrecy. Botsford's Netshow audio interview with Bassett is now available, You can access this interview and the chat as well, at http://communities.msn.com/ufo The Briefing Room chats can be accessed by any IRC client. The chat server is irc.msn.com port 6667 and the room or channel name is #briefing.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 26 Chat with UFO Lobbyist Stephen Bassett From: Yvonne Hedenland <vonni_h@kirkham.ewind.com> Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 12:00:06 -0600 Fwd Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 14:18:56 -0500 Subject: Chat with UFO Lobbyist Stephen Bassett Live from the Sedona Seminar Join the Politics of UFOs team and Lobbyist Stephen Basett for a special chat this Sunday, Feb 28, at 6pm, PT-- live from Sedona, Arizona--on the current swing to get Congress off it's duff and back to work on the issues of UFO secrecy. Botsford's Netshow audio interview with Bassett is now available, You can access this interview and the chat as well, at http://communities.msn.com/ufo The Briefing Room chats can be accessed by any IRC client. The chat server is irc.msn.com port 6667 and the room or channel name is #briefing.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 26 The Anomalist 7 From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net> Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 14:46:09 -0600 Fwd Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 16:12:21 -0500 Subject: The Anomalist 7 The Anomalist 7 is hot off the press! Sample contents at: http://www.anomalist.com/print/cont7.html
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 26 Trent and Rouen Images From: James Easton <pulsar@compuserve.com> Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 14:54:27 -0500 Fwd Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 16:09:40 -0500 Subject: Trent and Rouen Images Regarding discussions on the 'Rouen' photograph and its resemblance with the Trent photographs, some time ago I put together a graphics file which was simply an exercise in comparing respective images. As the subject has come up again, I've uploaded the image file to my Web site and it might be of interest. What I had set out to consider was how much image manipulation was required to make a 'Rouen' photograph from the Trent image. Interestingly, a 'colour contoured' version of the Trent image which has been published, seems to be even more like the Rouen photograph. My conclusion - it was relatively easy to create a close match and basically requires the dimensions of the Trent image to be slightly 'stretched' lengthways. Given that there seems to be no documented record of where the Rouen photograph originated and as it's almost identical to the Trent image in the first place, I wondered if the 'Rouen photograph' was in fact intended to have been a copy of the 'Trent saucer'. If so, perhaps when it had been copied in the 1950s, the 'duplicate' wasn't exact, became slightly stretched and some of the precise detail wasn't mirrored in the copying process. This is maybe easier to see in the graphics file. Reaffirming that there's no argument presented with it, the results of the experiment can be seen at: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/pulsar/rouen.jpg James. E-mail: pulsar@compuserve.com
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 26 Re: Pope On A Rope From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net> Date: Fri, 26 Feb 99 15:20:04 PST Fwd Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 16:15:22 -0500 Subject: Re: Pope On A Rope >Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 12:27:03 -0500 >From: Andy Roberts <Brigantia@compuserve.com> >Subject: Re: Pope On A Rope >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >It speaks volumes about his research into and expectations of >the UFO field though. The fact that as an author making big >moolah he chooses to be 'tactical' about his alleged 'abduction' >suggests lots. You can't wiggle out of that with cod-sincerity >Jerome. >We must agree to disagree. Fair enough, Andrew. But could you please explain to me what "cod-sincerity" is? Not an expression, I fear, that's made it to this side of the ocean. I just hope that whatever it means, it smells better than the fish. Cheers, Jerry Clark
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 27 Trumbull County on Art Bell From: Kenny Young <ufo@fuse.net> Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 16:52:40 -0500 Fwd Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 20:29:58 -0500 Subject: Trumbull County on Art Bell Trumbull County on Art Bell To hear the dramatic 9-1-1 recordings for the '94 Trumbull County Disturbance, tune in to the ART BELL radio program tonight (Friday night/Saturday morning) Feb. 26 & 27 around 1:00 a.m. E.D.T. The 9-1-1 recordings will also be posted in their entirety (without comment or interruption) on the internet in the days ahead. Kenny Young -- UFO Research
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 27 Re: Trent and Rouen Images From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@aol.com> Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 17:51:41 EST Fwd Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 20:35:25 -0500 Subject: Re: Trent and Rouen Images >From: James Easton <pulsar@compuserve.com> >Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 14:54:27 -0500 >Fwd Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 16:09:40 -0500 >Subject: Trent and Rouen Images >My conclusion - it was relatively easy to create a close match >and basically requires the dimensions of the Trent image to be >slightly 'stretched' lengthways. >Given that there seems to be no documented record of where the >Rouen photograph originated and as it's almost identical to the >Trent image in the first place, I wondered if the 'Rouen >photograph' was in fact intended to have been a copy of the >'Trent saucer'. >If so, perhaps when it had been copied in the 1950s, the >'duplicate' wasn't exact, became slightly stretched and some of >the precise detail wasn't mirrored in the copying process. This >is maybe easier to see in the graphics file. Oh, come on! Even stretched, diced, sliced, shredded and otherwise manipulated, the Rouen photograph very obviously is _not_ a simple copy of the Trent photo in many respects (curvature of the rim, relative rim size, tower size, shape and detail, clarity of image, graininess, etc.). If anything, I think your demonstration shows exactly the opposite of what you intended. This doesn't prove the Rouen photo is genuine, just that it wasn't copied directly from theTrent photo. Anyway, thanks for the demonstration. David Rudiak
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 27 Canadian Defence Department Scientists On Alien From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@get2net.dk> Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 00:09:04 +0100 (MET) Fwd Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 20:41:00 -0500 Subject: Canadian Defence Department Scientists On Alien Source: The National Post - Toronto http://www.nationalpost.com/news.asp?f=3D990226/2315727&s2=3Dnational&s3=3Dn= ews Stig *** Friday, February 26, 1999 Defence Department on alien alert 2 scientists urge PM to regulate messages sent by UFO fanatics Robert Fife National Post ** Two Defence Department scientists are urging Jean Chretien to help avert an alien invasion prompted by unregulated message traffic sent into space by UFO fanatics. Yvan Dutil and Stephane Dumas, who work as astrophysicists at the Defence Research Establishment in Valcartier, Que., have written the prime minister to ask him to regulate communications with extraterrestrials. The two scientists, who are themselves attempting to contact extraterrestrial life, are concerned that inexperienced UFO fanatics could inadvertently invite an alien invasion. "Sooner or later, messages carelessly designed might put Earth at risk," they wrote in an e-mail sent to Mr. Chretien and Art Hanger, the Reform party Defence critic. "For example, UFO cultists could send a message through space asking extraterrestrials to come and rule Earth." Contacted yesterday at the Valcartier research establishment, Mr. Dutil said he and his colleague believe it is time the federal government got involved in regulating extraterrestrial communications. "The main proposal is if you want to send something in space, the message should have to be checked out," he said. "It is not stupid to do this since [these communications] may imply danger so you have to be careful. It is like playing with dynamite." Mr. Dutil stressed that the Defence Department is not involved in his and Mr. Dumas' plans to communicate with extraterrestrials. Peter Donolo, the prime minister's usually voluble communications director, was almost speechless when told of the request of the government scientists to regulate "amateur" message traffic. "Come on, this is insane," he blurted out and then added: "We are not aware that fraternizing with aliens from outer space is a problem." Mr. Hanger said he just cannot believe the Defence Department has allowed the two scientists to "play around with these kinds of fantasies. "I don't know if they have talked to any moon people lately but it is obvious they are living in a fantasy world," said Mr. Hanger, who wondered "if they are going to converse in both of Canada's official languages." Mr. Dutil said he and Mr. Dumas are involved in a project called Encounter 2001 where they hope to communicate with extraterrestrial civilizations using a transmitter in the Ukraine that is 100,000 times stronger than an ordinary TV. Mr. Dutil said he and his partner's interest in the project is "purely scientific" and they got involved because they wanted to limit the risks to Earth by establishing proper communications and rules in dealing with aliens. "There is a concern, for example, you have a religious group that believes in extraterrestrials as God and they want to call God to come here and who knows what might happen? If there is advanced civilization in space and they receive this kind of message they may come here and still play God," he said. Chan Tysor, president of Houston-based Celelstis Inc, a company that sends cremated remains into space, told the National Post yesterday that he is participating in the Encounter 2001 project with the two Canadian scientists. Copyright =A9 Southam Inc. All rights reserved. Optimized for browser versions 3.0 and higher. "National Post Online is a production of Southam Inc., Canada's largest publisher of daily newspapers."
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 27 Re: Phil Klass and The Trent Photos From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@aol.com> Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 17:56:59 EST Fwd Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 20:38:22 -0500 Subject: Re: Phil Klass and The Trent Photos >From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com> >Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 13:14:15 -0500 >Fwd Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 13:44:42 -0500 >Subject: Re: Phil Klass and The Trent Photos >>From: DRudiak@aol.com >>Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 14:18:19 EST >>To: updates@globalserve.net >>Subject: Re: Phil Klass and The Trent Photos >>However, the famous garage in the photos is still there, though >>altered. The rafters which cast the controversial shadows have >>been cut back and gutters added. A car shelter has been added >>in front, and further obscures the view. The propane tank of the >>photos is long gone. Immediately after I got home from trip, I did a little experiment to see if I could replicate the lighting conditions in the Trent photos. I used an aluminum ice cream tub as a model of the tank and a short 2 x 4 to simulate a rafter. These I placed against the east wall of my home (since it is the east wall of the garage which shows in photos). I took the photos at the same time of day as the Trent's remembered (evening, just before sunset) on the same day of the year (May 11). By good fortune, it had also rained that day and it was still partially overcast with the clouds beginning to break up. As a result, I got a lot of indirect lighting by reflection of sunlight off the clouds. One of the skeptical objections to the Trent photos is that the lighting is all wrong for the time of day which the Trents said the sighting occurred. Particularly vocal about this has been Robert Shaeffer, who claims the photos would have had to be taken in the morning when the sun was in the east and directly illuminating the east wall of the garage in order to get the glare off the aluminized tank and the rafters casting discrete shadows. Bruce Maccabee has since argued (and demonstrated with a photo I believe) that indirect lighting of sunlight reflected off of clouds can also do this, and my little experiment confirms that. There is a very strong glare off the aluminum tank even in this indirect light, and the tank is shadowed at the bottom, just like in the Trent photos. My "rafter" also casts a very noticeable shadow in indirect light, though probably not so discrete as in the Trent photos. But it is also absolutely impossible to replicate the exact lighting conditions as they occurred in 1950. My more diffuse shadow could easily be explained by more indirect lighting sources from the clouds, not to mention the wall of my neighbors house only 10 feet away. Regardless, fairly distinct shadows can be cast by indirect sunlight in rather common lighting conditions (overcast skies). So this skeptical objection to the Trent photos and the veracity of the Trents is likely bogus as well. <snip> >>Incidentally, the garage is much larger than what you would >>think from the photos. It holds two cars and has workspace down >>the sides. There is also a storage shed attached to the back. >>This has relevance to another bogus argument raised by skeptics >>against the authenticity of the Trent photos: why didn't Trent >>walk around back of the garage, i.e. to his left, to keep the >>object in view when it moved to the left and was about to be >>obsured by the roof of the garage? The most important reason is >>that it was a long walk around the back of the garage. >>Furthermore, Trent would have lost sight of the object while he >>was doing this. It was much simpler (and more logical) for >>Trent to walk forward and to his right a few feet to keep the >>object in view the entire time and then snap his second photo. >Thanks for confirmation of the length of the garage. From aerial >photos I had concluded it was about 28 feet long. I measured the length of the garage with a tape measure and found it to be just over 24 feet long. I didn't measure the width of the shed in back, but from my photos, it appears to be about 8 feet wide, making the total length about 32 feet. I don't know if the shed was there in 1950, but the timbers look pretty old. I also didn't measure the width of the garage, but it appeared to be built on a square plan, which would make it about 24 feet wide. The distance from the soil to the base of the rafters was 92 inches. The pitch of the roof appeared to be built using a common 1 to 3 slope, i.e I guesstimated that there was a 4 foot rise at the peak over a 12 foot run at the base. I would also guess that to keep the construction as economical as possible, everything would be build around lengths of 8 feet or 12 feet, standard 2 x 4 construction lengths. This is all summarized in a diagram below (not to scale). I have also marked the approximate positions where Trent took his two photos. This makes it rather obvious why it would make more sense for Trent to move a few feet to his right to take the second photo rather than run around back of the rather wide garage/shed. The front of the garage is set back 100 feet from the road out front. I have also marked the position of the old phone pole that shows up in both photos. In photo 1, it lines up close to the NE corner of the garage. In photo 2 it is further to the right because of Trent shifting positions. The pole is no longer there, but the current owner said that the present service comes in there at the position of the old pole. That position is 40-41 feet from the right (east) edge of the driveway, which lines up with the right (east) edge of the garage. It is set back 15-16 feet from the present pavement on the road, or 84 - 85 feet from the front of the garage. This information should be useful in pinning down where Trent was when he took his photos. E.g., Trent's position in photo 1 would have formed an angle of about 26 degrees w.r.t. the east side of the garage and NE corner. (Use nonproportional font like Courier to view properly) FIELD N | W --- E | S O Present phone/power pole (15" thick) 13' setback ------------------------------------------------- road 20' wide ------------------------------------------------ 15-16' Setback | | O <------ 40-41' ---->| Position of old | | phone pole in | | Photos | Drive- | | way | | | | | ----------------- | | | Current House Garage 100' | | | uses part of from road | | | old foundation | |15-16' ---------------- | | ^ | | | 11-12' ------------- - Roof of Garage | Double |^ Rafters 92" from ground Appeared to Have| Garage || ~1 to 3 Pitch | || 24' | || 2 Approx. Trent ------------- 1 Positions | Shed | ~8' (Unmeasured) ---------- ~ 24'(Unmeasured) >>Another objection to the Trent photos was why didn't others see >>the object? Again a site visit by skeptics would have provided a >>logical answer. The area was very sparsely populated, >>consisting primarily of large open farm fields with a few farm >>houses scattered here and there. Even today, there probably >>aren't more than about 30-50 people per square mile. >Mrs Trent told me, during phone conversations in the middle >1970's that her in-laws, who lived several hundred feet away >along the same road (house probably still there) saw it. >Furthermore, she said some other neighbor of hers saw the same >thing. James McDonald was told about the in-laws' sighting, >but they were dead by the time he learned of hits (in 1968 I >believe). The other possible witness was dead by the time I >found out about her. Since I'm in an ASCII diagramming frenzy, I've included a diagram of the area, with various buildings that are currently in the immediate neighborhood (as best as I can remember or show up in my photos). The old Trent farm can be found by going 10-1/2 miles SW of McMinnville on Highway 18 (Salmon River Highway). The farm is on Christensen Rd. (old Rural Route 3) which comes off left (south) of the highway for 0.1 mile, then like the saucers, makes a 90 degree turn due east. The Trent place is another 0.1 miles down the road. The nearest house is about 100 yards down the road and looks like it was probably built after 1950. There are several more clustered down near the corner (one a converted barn). This is probably where the Trent in-laws lived (Paul Trent's brother and sister-in-law said they lived closer to the highway). So they were about 0.1 miles away. This is basically what the area is like: mostly open fields with a few rural roads. Farm homes and outbuildings are here and there along the rural roads. (More or less to scale) B (Old barn of photos?) N W E S * Highway 18 X * (McMinnville 10.5 H * miles to NE) X * * House marked H on Highway is probably * | present in Trent photos * | .1 mile | Field | X | Christensen Rd. X |_______X________________________ X B | X # Garage .1 mile B = Converted barn Incidentally, the house on HIghway 18 which I've marked "H", is probably the distant house visible in the two photos (it looks like it, though there've been some changes). The structure I've marked "B" set back from the highway might be where the barn in the photos is, but may have been converted to a home. There is another farm outbuilding on the highway to the right of the house which looks more recent than 1950. Christensen Rd., I was told, is named after an old farmer who is still alive and still farming about a mile SE of the Trent place. I was also told that he knew the Trents. Whether he has personal knowledge of the sighting is another matter. >Thanks for your contribution to the Trent Saga. You're welcome. David Rudiak
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 27 NASA Awards $600,000 To Antigravity Experiment From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@get2net.dk> Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 00:37:28 +0100 (MET) Fwd Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 21:32:05 -0500 Subject: NASA Awards $600,000 To Antigravity Experiment Source: Star Tribune, http://www2.startribune.com/cgi-bin/stOnLine/article?thisStory=3D70743796 Stig *** Published Wednesday, February 24, 1999 Home Planet: Heat islands, tornado profiles, antigravity study (snip) The incredible being of lightness UFO buffs, take note: NASA has awarded $600,000 to an Ohio company to try to reproduce an antigravity experiment reported several years ago in Physica, a Russian physics journal. In that article, a scientist reported that he had managed to get a spinning, superconducting disc to lose as much of 2 percent of its weight. He hypothesized that if this result were due to some gravity-shielding effect, when expanded and controlled it might allow a craft to float into space without being launched. The first NASA-funded attempt to reproduce the experiment failed, but the company, Superconductive Components, will try again. Some physicists think NASA is chasing a will-o-the-wisp and wasting a lot of money, but the agency appears to be hedging its bets: Overcoming gravity would be quite a weighty accomplishment. -- Compiled by Jim Dawson =A9 Copyright 1999 Star Tribune. All rights reserved.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 27 Contrails and Frogs From: Lawrie Williams <nemesis@fastinternet.net.au> Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 09:51:51 +1000 Fwd Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 21:34:07 -0500 Subject: Contrails and Frogs >From: "nelke" <nelke@stlnet.com>.... >http://www.usatoday.com/life/science/environ/lse020.htm >USA TODAY - THURSDAY, FEBRUARY 25, 1999..... >...WASHINGTON - Frogs are disappearing throughout the nation at >unprecedented rates, spurring Interior Secretary Bruce Babbitt to >ask Congress Wednesday for more than $9 million to try to find out >why..... >There is evidence that up to a third of the 230 species of native >frogs, toads and salamanders in the United States - species that >have been around since dinosaur days - are declining, Babbitt said. >At the same time, freakish frogs with multiple or missing limbs and >facial deformities have been reported in 42 states over the past few >years, he said. >"All amphibian biologists are now convinced that something unusual >and catastrophic is happening," said Ron Heyer, research curator at >the National Museum of Natural History..... >So far, there are more questions than answers about what might be >causing the frogs' problems. Among the possibilities: contamination >of the frogs' environment by pesticides and herbicides used by >farmers and gardeners; an increase in ultraviolet radiation caused >by chemicals destroying the planet's protective ozone layer; disease >and fungus infections; the introduction of non-native, frog-eating >fish into the habitat; and the loss of wetlands because of >development.... OK, here is a fresh new conspiracy hypothesis, and a good one....... Contrails and Frogs Frogs have been dying over here too, high in the mountains and far from evnironmental change. It can only be something being dispersed through the atmosphere. It is likely the abducting entities associated with UFOs are members of the same family as frogs. The fundie-mentality secret government agencies have decided to "save" us from the sometimes painful gifts these little dudes are sharing to enhance humankind. So they have developed a bioweapon that kills all things with the same physiology, from frogs to EBIEs. Poor little dudes, just doing a benevolent job and they are being made to croak by right wing Americans. Lawrie Williams_____
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 27 [MC] ATTENTION - Special Bulletin (2) From: Geri & Alfred Webre <Ecotoday@aol.com> Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 18:55:52 EST Fwd Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 21:37:56 -0500 Subject: [MC] ATTENTION - Special Bulletin (2) The following was posted on Wes Thomas" MindControl discussion list. We have no idea about its original provenance. Geri & Alfred Webre Vancouver BC Subj: [MC] ATTENTION - Special Bulletin (2) Date: 99-02-26 05:14:13 EST From: gwilson_spur@lineone.net (Graham M. Wilson) To: MINDCONTROL-L@mail.sonic.net (MC Mailing List) Notes from an insider ('The Voice') "The UFO/Military Abduction/Genetic/Mind Control/Censorship" I am an ex-employee (security operative) from a black-budget top secret underground R & D facility situated not far from London (England). For the past 5 years I have contravened the Official Secrets Act by publishing my documents detailing the base, the projects, personnel involved, locations, code names, etc., but due to pressure brought to bear on me not only by the NSA and MI5, but from 'friendly fire', the so called 'UFO Elite', my disclosures, my documents have been brought to a standstill and I have been effectively silenced. As mentioned above I was a security operative at the facility, I am also a victim of the main project at the base run by the NSA, mind control, genetic experimentation and military UFO abductions. I have endured endless threats, intimidation and harassment from various military and intelligence agencies over time. The loss of the equipment I used to publish my documents, coupled with very severe financial problems and then the sudden death of my father, on top of the pressures from agencies and engineered apathy by the UFO community have resulted in my not being in a position to get the vital info and data into the public domain. As a last resort in my attempts to get some real help and assistance was by way of a letter published in the 'Truth Campaign' magazine (Ivan Fraser, UK) this detailed my plight and requested help, to date no such help of any kind has been forthcoming. I now ask those UFO/conspiracy researchers whom are not controlled by the UFO media and 'UFO Elite' to assist me in continuing with my disclosures. Without practical help my documents are no more, I need help with funds, donations, equipment to actually produce the files, anything and everything, great or small. If you can help and do your to knock the controlling 'UFO Elite' off their manipulative perches, please get in touch, now. Failing any help I have to pronounce 'The Voice' dead. Barry M. King, 27 The Green, Melbourne, Chelmsford, Essex, CM1 2BQ, UK. Tel: +44 (0)1245 493775 E-Mail: bmk_thevoice@yahoo.com Internet: http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/Barracks/1159/ ISSN: 1462-9313 The above was sent to me by The Voice, with a note asking for it to be put on the net, mailing lists and newsgroups. Scanned images of The Voice documents can also be seen on our website. Graham M. Wilson (Chairman & Director of Investigations) Society for Paranormal & UFO Research (SPUR) Tel. +44 (0)1924 468280 Mob. +44 (0)7887 641824 Fax. +44 (0)1924 455357 ICQ # 23996159 Email: GWilson_SPUR@LineOne.net Web: http://surf.to/spur ************************************************************** MINDCONTROL-L Mind Control and Psyops Mailing List To unsubscribe or subscribe: send a message to majordomo@sonic.net with the following text: "unsubscribe MINDCONTROL-L" or "subscribe MINDCONTROL-L". Post to: MINDCONTROL-L@mail.sonic.net. Wes Thomas <west@sonic.net>, list moderator
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 27 *** Jeff Rense Weekly e-News *** 2-27-99 From: Jeff Rense Weekly e-News <jocelyn@dewittec.net> Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 18:42:38 -0600 Fwd Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 21:47:49 -0500 Subject: *** Jeff Rense Weekly e-News *** 2-27-99 *** Jeff Rense Weekly e-News *** The Week Ahead 2-28-99 thru 3-6-99 Guests, Announcements, Week's Top Stories From sightings.com Jeff Rense News is distributed by Free Subscription Only. If you wish to unsubscribe, email: jocelyn@dewittec.net ---<+>--- ** EXCLUSIVE: PHOTOGRAPH OF THE 'MIAMI CIRCLE'** only at www.sightings.com! ---<+>--- *** TOP STORIES *** Just a few of the last week's most intriguing! http://www.sightings.com * More Big Asteroids Found - Many 'Too Close For Comfort' * Century's Top 100 News Stories * Y2K - Senate Committee Says 2000 Bug 'Serious And Potentially Devastating' * Y2K - New Report: FAA And The State Department FLUNK Y2K Readiness * Echinacea And St. John's Herbs Could Impair Fertility * Weather Modification Now A Growth Business * Supergerm Ignores Strongest Antibiotics - Kills Woman * Peru UFOs Caught On Video - Giant Cylinder Seen Near Heathrow * CFR Takes Over American Jewry * Babies Carried And Born By Men Now Said To Be Possible * More Birds Forgetting To Head South For The Winter * Russian Weapons Experts Confirm Baghdad Rearmament Connection * Y2K - US And Russia Ponder The Nuclear Dangers * Scientists Engineer 'Stealth Virus' To Deliver Gene Therapy * New Computer Catches Speeders, Etc. - Tickets Mailed In 10 Minutes * British Army Spraying E.Coli In Germ Warfare Tests Read these fascinating articles and dozens more at www.sightings.com All stories are saved and archived in our huge DataPages section *** FEATURE ARTICLE *** Y2K - FEMA Preparing For Disaster - 2-24-99 ATLANTA (CNN) -- The Federal Emergency Management Agency -- used to dealing with unpredictable disasters such as hurricanes, floods and fires -- finds itself in the rare situation of knowing when a crisis may strike. FEMA workers are gearing up for a potential Y2K emergency, predicted to happen when some computers fail to recognize the year 2000 and cease to function. "Given the current level of information available, we should prepare for Y2K as we prudently prepare every year for a potential winter storm," said FEMA Deputy Director Mike Walker. FEMA and federal agencies are also meeting with state and local emergency managers to determine who's ready for Y2K and who is not. "The department is confident that electric power will not be a Y2K problem," said Janet Benini of the Transportation Department. Although a number of Washington bureaucrats have made similar assurances, some local officials are wary. "They haven't finished their total assessment and we haven't finished ours," said Bob Lay, an emergency manager in Brevard County, Florida. "Until we finish that assessment, I don't know that I can paint the same rosy picture." Officials in nearby Miami-Dade County are asking residents to have enough food and water stored up for 14 days, which would see the area through a disruption similar too that caused by Hurricane Andrew in 1992. Meanwhile, FEMA has planned a national Y2K readiness exercise for June. "If preparing for Y2K helps prepare America for earthquakes, hurricanes or floods or anything like that, it will have been well worth the effort," said Walker. Correspondent Marsha Walker contributed to this report. *** THIS WEEK'S GUESTS *** 2-28-99 thru 3-6-99 (Please note Jeff's Guest schedule can change due to late breaking stories, etc) SUN 2-28-99 Tim Matthews: Human Engineered UFOs... the latest revelations MON 3-1-99 Jeff Green: Fluoride In Your Body... from water to toothpaste Charles Phillips: Y2K Insider Information... getting closer each day TUE 3-2-99 Ingo Swann: Legendary Remote Viewer... a candid conversation WED 3-3-99 Michael Lindemann: Weekly UFO/ET Update ... the latest from the best William Buhlman: Learn OBE's On Demand! ... yes, it's true THU 3-4-99 Peter Robbins: UFOs... superb researcher shares new data FRI 3-5-99 Nancy: ZetaTalk - Talking With ET...by popular demand SAT 3-6-99 David John Oates Reverse Speech Show. The discoverer of RS does reversals live on the air! ________ *** EDITOR'S CORNER *** We've had MANY requests about radio affiliates in local areas! Well, Jeff has some tremendous affiliates but, as Jeff puts it, "The primary problem with expanding our affiliate base as quickly as we would like is the simple fact that a handful of corporations own virtually all the major talk stations in America. And they will only air the programs they own, independents like our program are screened out." Well, that may be but they also have to answer to people because potential advertisers like to see those big numbers -- you know, like Jeff has. Having a local affiliate in your area (if you don't) would make it convenient in a lot of ways, including letting friends, with no internet access, in on a crucial guest coming up. But MORE IMPORTANTLY -- think how many people we could reach with *solid* information! How many people would "wake up" if they were simply exposed? Wouldn't it be awe-inspiring if together we were able to create one of the biggest information movements in history? We could, you know. I'll keep you updated. ------------------- Check out these SPECIAL SECTIONS: RenseWorld! Visit the most amazing cyber experience ever... An entire VIRTUAL PLANET is now open for online exploration -- a TRUE cyber phenomenon! Click on the RenseWorld banner on http://www.sightings.com NOTE: If you downloaded the free browser over a few days ago, download the NEW browser for RenseWorld by clicking on the RenseWorld banner. Jeff Rense Y2K RESOURCE CENTER http://www.sightings.com/y2kresource/y2k1r.html ------------------------- *** PROGRAM INFORMATION *** Program Show Times Live Coast-To-Coast Monday-Friday 7-10pm Pacific 10-1am Eastern Sundays 8-11pm Pacific 11-2am Eastern Call in Line: 888 667-2346; 888 ON-RADIO Program Transcripts at http://www.immunotex.com/rense/ Program Audio Tapes 888 456-4340 Live Real Audio Broadcasts http://www.sightings.com Connect to Real Audio and listen LIVE Real Audio Archives Connect to our archives and hear your favorite guests and show topics for the past two years! http://www.sightings.com RenseWorld Click on the RenseWorld banner link at the top of http://www.sightings.com Advertising Jeff Rense websites and radio show mailto:silentsalesman@usa.net for rates and info. All technical questions, or questions related to Sightings.com should be sent to the appropriate email. You can find out where at http://www.sightings.com/1.mail/infocenter.html ------------------------- Share with your friends! Please feel free to forward this issue of Jeff Rense Weekly e-News to any and all who are interested... as long as it is forwarded in its entirety and not modified in any fashion. Thank you! -------------------- It's not too late. The time to prepare is NOW but growing shorter. For the best preparation guide on the market: http://www.immunotex.com/prepare-now/ -------------------------- To subscribe or unsubscribe: jocelyn@dewittec.net -------------------------- Jeff Rense Weekly e-News is produced independently in cooperation with Jeff Rense. The material and views expressed herein do not necessarily reflect those of Jeff Rense, sightings.com, or the Jeff Rense - Sightings Radio Program.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 27 Re: Robert Todd On MJ-12 From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net> Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 20:59:57 -0400 Fwd Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 21:55:39 -0500 Subject: Re: Robert Todd On MJ-12 >From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com> >Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 09:23:42 EST >To: updates@globalserve.net >Subject: Re: Robert Todd On MJ-12 >>From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net> >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >>Subject: Re: Robert Todd On MJ-12 >>Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 19:11:05 -0400 >>>From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com> >>>Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 20:24:29 EST >>>To: updates@globalserve.net >>>Subject: Re: Robert Todd On MJ-12 >>>>From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net> >>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >>>>Subject: Re: Robert Todd On MJ-12 >>>>Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 08:32:45 -0400 >>>>I certainly appreciate the calm tone of Kevin's posting. >>>the questioned document examiner that you contacted? >>Black hasn't published it yet. But certainly the document >>examiner that I talked to did not tell me that he had done a >>report of any kind. He did express an opinion. Is this published >>somewhere? Do you have a copy? >He has offered a number of oral reports. He told you >specifically what he had found and suggested that you "wash your >hands of the whole thing." Why do you need a written report when >you already have all the relevant information from the man, >including his professional opinion that the MJ-12 documents, >including the EBD and the Truman memo are fake? I consider it an offhand opinion not a carefully documented professional opinion >>>>Nobody seems to be mentioning that it was Tim Good in the UK >>>>that first published the EBD. >>>This could be because Barry Greenwood established that Good had >>received his copies of the EBD from a "CIA" source who turned >>>out to be Moore. Greenwood did a devastating expose of how he >>>was able to prove that that Good's copy came from Moore. I even >>>talked about it in A History of UFO Crashes. (Hey, everyone else >>>is mentioning their books, so I thought I would join in.) >>My recollection is that Good's copy was shown not to be from >>Moore. As a matter of fact it makes little sense that it would >>have since Good published before Moore published portions of a >>few pages. I might add that the copies I have distributed have >>all been clean copies. I even proovided FUFOR with their first >>clean copy. >All of this is irrelevant. Barry Greenwood established through >the physical evidence that Moore is the source of Good's copy of >the MJ-12 documents. Who published what when is not important >here. I do not have any reason to believe that Barry is correct having talked at length with Tim about this. <snip> >>Obviously we have different views of the history of this >>discussion. Unfortunately I recall that in History of UFO >>Crashes on page 1, it was claimed that your article in the UFO >>Encyclopedia had dismissed Roswell.. However, Roswell is >>nowhere mentioned in that Encyclopedia' >And this is relevant how? It does not say that and you know it. >It says that I had dismissed all the reports of crashed saucers >that I had heard when I wrote the entry of them for the UFO >Encyclopedia in 1979. In A History of UFO Crashes, I do say that >the road was littered with crashed saucer tales and included >Roswell in that to make a point. Sorry, but the facts are different from the claim. Here is the quote from page 1 "A History of UFO Crashes" AVON, 1995 $5.50. US $7.50 Canada "In fact in l980 I provided Ron Story with the segment on the hidden alien bodies and crashed saucers for "The UFO Encyclopedia". In it I made it clear that none of the reports of crashed saucers had ever withstood objective investigation. The road was strewn with the remains of those stories, starting with the Aztec, New Mexico, case and working its way to the Spitzbergen report and the events near Roswell, New Mexico"... Those are the words as printed. Clearly Kevin was stating that he included Roswell in his UFO Encyclopedia segment. However, there is no mention of Roswell in his segment or anywhere else in the Encyclopedia... presumably because the articles were written before there was any noise about Roswell. I cannot, of course, claim to know what was in Kevin's mind when this was written. I can only know what he wrote. I think it is understandable why I am skeptical about some of the claims made in the above postings. Stan Friedman
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 27 Re: Phil Klass and The Trent Photos From: Keith Woodard <qwoodard@worldnet.att.net> Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 17:26:57 -0800 Fwd Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 21:59:26 -0500 Subject: Re: Phil Klass and The Trent Photos >Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 11:19:13 -0800 >From: Royce J. Myers III <rjm3@sprintmail.com> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: Phil Klass and The Trent Photos <snip> >I interveiwed both Paul Trent and his wife in >1994 at their home in McMinville, Oregon. >They were adamant that they believed they >photographed a secret military aircraft at the >time, _not_ a UFO (i.e.: aliens, et al). >They don't even believe in aliens! <snip> In THE UFO VERDICT, Robert Sheaffer claims, "Mrs. Trent told the Portland Oregonian [apparently June 10, 1950 - KW] that she had spotted UFOs along the coast on three different occasions, but until the photos were taken 'no one would believe me.' In a 1967 follow-up interview in the same newspaper, Mrs. Trent stated, 'We've seen quite a few since then [1950 - RS], but we didn't get any pictures, they disappeared too fast.' " If this is true, it would appear that the Trents were "repeaters," no? >The NBC special has shown beyond a doubt >that the photos are authentic. That's a lot to expect of a program like "Confirmation." Their heavy ammunition on this was delivered by Rand Molnar of the Brooks Institute of Photography: "There's no sign, no hint of anything suspending the object, a thread, a wire. I just don't see any threads or any wires there." Here, I think NBC missed an opportunity to nail the point down. On his post-"Confimation" show the night of the broadcast, Art Bell interpreted Molnar's remark as most viewers probably did: "They took that one down very well," Art concluded. "Had there been a wire, it would have been seen. Simple as that." But that's not what Molnar said. He just said he couldn't see one. Moreover, threads can be pretty thin. It seems possible to my layman's mind that a thread might not have left any trace at all in the photograph. It seems to me it would have been nice to hear Molnar's opinion on whether a thread would necessarily be visible, but NBC apparently thought differently. However, Molnar also made this point: "I think if it were an item very close to the camera, it would have a much darker underneath in that one photograph." In THE UFO VERDICT, Robert Sheaffer writes: "Maccabee points out that there is one simple alternative explanation: the model UFO was made of translucent plastic, and hence light from the sky could pass through the object and cause it to appear brighter than a shaded, opaque object could possibly be. The Dutch science writer and UFO skeptic Hans Van Kampen has suggested that sunlight reflecting off the metal oil tank might account for the brightness of the object's underside. Another prosaic and entirely plausible explanation is that the Trents had a flashbulb mounted on thkeir camera when the picture was taken. Portrait photographers often use a 'fill-in flash' for daylight shots, to soften harsh shadows. If the Trents, for whatever reason, had an ordinary flashbulb attached to their camera, it would cause the bottom of the object to appear far brighter than expected. (A flashbulb would also explain the washed-out appearance of the object in the other photo.) Molnar also said, "There'd probably be more evidence of some sort of texture, surface detail." "Probably?" That would seem to imply that, under certain conditions, we might not see such texture on a close object. Since Molnar wasn't given an opportunity to nail any of these points down, I wonder if Bruce Maccabee would be kind enough to offer his opinion. Kind regards, Keith
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 27 Re: Pending Lawsuit - Dilettoso vs. Korff From: Lawrie Williams <nemesis@fastinternet.net.au> Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 11:45:41 +1000 Fwd Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 22:08:45 -0500 Subject: Re: Pending Lawsuit - Dilettoso vs. Korff >Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 14:54:16 -0700 >From: Jim Dilettoso <jim@villagelabs.com> >To: Kal Korff <TotlResrch@aol.com> >Subject: Pending Lawsuit <snip> >Succinctly, >Jim Dilettoso >CC: List suppressed Jim, this is cyberspace. You demand the _removal_ of data, you will only create a black market. What has been posted is what was posted on a given day. You cannot unexist it. A healthier and more realistic alternative to REMOVAL of information is to require the ADDITION of correcting text. Please dwell on this because it is so important. I know a little about this because recently Mike Farrell of GUFON demanded the removal of records from the Generallyweird list. Yet it was no more than a feisty debate on the reality or otherwise of Evil Demons - Mike had been reading a bit too much David Jacobs late at night. : ) Every time one of you guys goes in boots and all, you are paying lawyers to tighten the noose around the freedom of information on the internet. What is right and proper in your case might mean the arbitrary supression of all sorts of other stuff in the future. Because your money will go to the setting of _precedents_ that will only take far more good money to _maybe_ remove at a later date. This is a very unfortunate trend. And by demanding removal of stuff, people are left wondering: "What has HE got to hide???" By simply ensuring addition of balancing information, he who is in the right can be seen to be in the right. If information flows freely, we all soon can sort out who the big mouthed pratts are. We don't need lawyers to do that. That is what we are losing every time there is one of these actions. Lawrie Williams__________
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 27 Re: UFOs And Man, Their Possible Relationship From: Lawrie Williams <nemesis@fastinternet.net.au> Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 11:47:18 +1000 Fwd Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 22:11:05 -0500 Subject: Re: UFOs And Man, Their Possible Relationship >Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 19:30:51 -0600 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >From: Michael Christol <mchristo@mindspring.com> >Subject: Pt. 3/3 - UFOs And Man, Their Possible Relationship >....According to those who have allegedly interacted with these >beings, it appears that they have degraded to a state of >physical decay. As a result, based on the information which >these abductees have imparted, it could be that these same alien >species, or at least their ancestors, are now turning to the >species which they created in the beginning of human history, to >now restore their dying race to health. Or at least create a >"New" race of descendents, combining the genes of humans and >aliens for the survival of one or both species..... That part could be disinformation. A person who allegedly met with another set of entities says that they are in very good health thankyou although there is a "portion" of themselves lost long ago that they are still seeking here. Maybe the picture being given some abductees is metaphorical in nature - that would not be new! - and that they are recovering genes that fell by the wayside when they left this dangerous little planet millennia ago. If is likely that they are now so remote from the natural environment that they need certain supplements and it has always been easier to come and collect them here than to synthesize them. With human attacks becoming more persistent and deadly it might be that large off-world or inner-world populations are now suffering malnutrition, hence the "physical decay". In Greek mythology Zeus (science) defeated the Titans (High Mountain Gods) by denying them a herb they needed to be able to arise again after being injured. They say you don't know what you've got till its gone. Lawrie Williams______
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 27 1876 Helicopter Mystery From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@get2net.dk> Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 03:19:55 +0100 (MET) Fwd Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 22:15:45 -0500 Subject: 1876 Helicopter Mystery Source: alt.alien.research Stig ___ From: JimOhio@webtv.net (Jim Goodluck) Newsgroups: alt.alien.research Subject: 1876 helicopter mystery Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 22:03:31 -0500 (EST) A tidbit from Jack Finney's book 'Forgotten News' (1984), p. 282: ---------------------------------- "Mr. W.J. Lewis, of New York City, has invented a flying-machine, which scientific gentlemen pronounce a decided wonder," begins a news story in 'Leslie's Illustrated Newspaper' of December 30, 1876. It "is the forerunner of an apparatus," the story continues, "which he promises to attain a speed through the air of at least one hundred miles an hour." Then, startlingly, the story provides detailed specifications: "... two propellors fo lifting, and the shorter part bending downward ... [with] a propellor at the rear end which is used for driving the machine forward." Its motive power was a huge spring "weighing several pounds," and: "Running through the entire length of the frame is a shaft, connecting with and communicating the power to the different propellors. The shaft of the rear propellor is connected with the main shaft by a universal joint. The propellors are right and left handed, the flanges or blades, of which there are four to each propellor, are concave-convex in form. Each one is set in motion by four beveled wheels, which are connected with the shafts, and therefor the motion is simultaneous. "Situated near the center of gravity are a pair of movable planes, slightly convex-concave, one on either side, which are used to guide the machine up or down. In the front is a rudder to give a right or left motion ..." What _about_ this? A helicopter flying through the skies of 1876? Well, the news report includes an illustration, which seems to show exactly that; and, the article continues tantalizingly: "During a formal test, Mr. Lewis directed his machine at various angles, and in all instances it flew" -- "flew"! -- "sraight in the direction pointed." And, that's all this forgotten story has to say about that. Is it possible? Could it really have happened? I consulted a designer for Grumman Aerospace Corporation, Joseph Lippert Jr., ... And, in a report headed "The Lewis Flying Machine of 1876", aircraft designer Lippert says: "It is believed that such a device ... could make short flights since it is indicated to have the necessary lifting forces, and arrangement of forces to provide longitudinal stability, directional and roll control." So there you have it: the picture and specifications described in this forgotten story apparently make sense to one of Grumman's ace designers. He continues: "From the description and illustration, a 'modern' equivalent may be sketched as follows ... The counter rotating lifting propellors", he says, "would reduce the overturning torque, but there would be some residual torque .... The downward inclination of the rear portion of the fuselage is interesting since this results in a thrust inclination of the rear thrusting propellor which produces a stabilizing influence. This principle is ... in use today .... A minor ... defect in the design could be the placement of the 'rudder' in the forward position. Some early pioneers did however fly aircraft with forward surfaces .... It is concluded that ... a similar model today ... could fly and be controllable." So that's that: a helicopter in the year of the Custer massacre. And which the nineteenth century seems to have forgotten. Maybe so. Because I think the nineteenth century took "Progress" for granted, took stunning inventions in stride. Few soothsayers of the times ever failed to predict that the skies would soon fill with flying machines. So when W.J. Lewis sent a helicopter flying through the air of 1876, I think people weren't a bit surprised. That they'd been expecting it. Probably wondered why it took so long. And then, what with one thing or another, they got busy, the whole thing just slipped the nineteenth century's mind, and they simply forgot to pass the news down to us. --------------- Jim http://expage.com/page/stuff2read http://expage.com/page/storage http://expage.com/page/fit4life
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 27 Re: Trent and Rouen Images From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com> Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 22:40:06 -0500 Fwd Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 22:18:56 -0500 Subject: Re: Trent and Rouen Images >Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 14:54:27 -0500 >From: James Easton <pulsar@compuserve.com> >Subject: Trent and Rouen Images >To: UFO UpDates <updates@globalserve.net> >Regarding discussions on the 'Rouen' photograph and its >resemblance with the Trent photographs, some time ago I put >together a graphics file which was simply an exercise in >comparing respective images. The Rouen photo is not simply a copy of the Trent #2. Although both photos are side views, the angle is not the same. Regarding the history of the Rouen photo: published in Royal Air Force Flying Review in July, 1957 and in the Flying Saucer Review in May-June, 1957. The photo was reportedly taken in France in March, 1957. In 1976 Brinsley Le Poer Trench (Earle of Clancarty) who was the editor of FSR in 1957 wrote me a letter to say that he had searched his records (at my request) and found no copy of the photo. He did not know exactly where it had come from. Claude Poher, who was the initial director of GEPAN in France, made a search of French Air Force sources and failed to find any evidence connected with the photo. Thus it stands or falls on its own as an orphan photo (no known "father or mother"). I'm sure the trail, if there ever was one, has long grown cold.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 27 Scientists Fear Alien Invasion From: Michael J. Woods <b1fbtn51@pop1.sympatico.ca> Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 22:44:09 -0500 (EST) Fwd Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 22:21:55 -0500 Subject: Scientists Fear Alien Invasion Dear List, This wire service story was sent across the system at 8:54a.m. by the Canadian Press. It is a scalp of a story from the National Post, likely today's (friday's) edition. Any typos are mine. No comments are added. Have fun. Scientists fear alien invasion TORONTO (CP) _ Two Defence Department scientists are urging the government to avert an alien invasion by preventing amateur UFO chasers from beaming careless messages into space. Yvan Dutil and Stephane Dumas, who work as astrophysicists at the Defence Research Establishment in Valcartier, Que., make the appeal in an e-mail to the prime minister, the National Post reports from Ottawa. The scientists, who are also engaged in trying to make contact with extraterrestrial life, want the government to regulate any communications intended for aliens. They fear that inexperienced UFO chaser could inadvertently invite an invasion from other worlds. "Sooner of later, messages carelessly designed might put Earth at risk," says their e-mail, also sent to the Reform defence critic and obtained by the Post. "For example, UFO cultists could send a message through space asking extraterrestrials to come and rule Earth." Peter Donolo, rarely at a loss for words as the prime minister's communications director, was almost speechless when told of the scientists' request. "Come on, this is insane," Donolo told the Post. "We are not aware that fraternizing with aliens from outer space is a problem." But Dutil says he and his colleague are genuinely concerned. "The main proposal is if you want to send something into space, the message should be checked out," Dutil told the Post. "It is not stupid to do this since (such messages) may imply danger, so you have to be careful. It is like playing with dynamite. "There is a concern, for example, you have a religious group that believes in extraterrestrials as God and they want to call God to come here and who knows what might happen? If there is advanced civilization in space and they receive this kind of message, they may come here and still play God." Dutil said the efforts of he and Dumas to contact aliens is unrelated to their work at the Defence Department. The scientists are privately involved with a project called Encounter 2001 which hopes to make contact with otherwordly life by beaming messages from a powerful transmitter in Ukraine. Please note: this arrived on our computers this morning at the CITY-TV newsroom in Toronto. Many in the newsroom suggested this might be about the most intelligent news we can expect out of Ottawa. Others aren't as optimistic. Mike Woods The truth can STAY out there, send in a good fantasy!!
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 27 John Ford [was: A Poststructuralist...] From: Michael Christol <mchristo@mindspring.com> Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 22:57:32 -0600 Fwd Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 22:43:08 -0500 Subject: John Ford [was: A Poststructuralist...] >From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 20:43:56 +600 >Subject: Re: A Poststructuralist Take On The UFO Phenomenon ><snipped aerobatic academics> >>Grin... >. . . which makes one wonder how much grinning John Ford has >done in the past five years -- presupposing the irony that his >only mention, thus far, is as inanimate support for an academic >point . . . . Is the man that forgettablely odious that he >should be relegated, so casually, to the position of clinical >third person, of use only as support in esoteric debate? This is >not an indictment, rather a reminder what the deal is. John Ford >suffers as we speak. No...I doubt that John has grinned even once during his "entombment." No, he does not deserve this type of treatment from a vendictive system which is using him to make a statment. People who murder others are not necessarily put through this type of treatment. Many are placed in prison for as little as five or six years and turned loose. But, John is locked away and will not even allowed the decency of a trial. What a Country! >. . . perhaps many other places right _here_. Certainly in >Suffolk county -- not to put too fine a point on it. Yes, you may be correct. >. . . Resulting in ridicule, suspicion, censure, disrespect, and >persecution when interested in the most exciting, challenging, >and interesting occurrences of our time . . . Yes, and in a country which was origionally established as a "Republic" but has since denigrated to a "Democracy" and in my opinion now borders on absolute "socialism." >Why can't John Ford get a trial? Why aren't more of us filled >with moral outrage, genuine fear, and justifiable concern? >Finally, why do we think that _we_ will be treated any >differently at the denouement. Because it hasn't happened to them! Their little lives are just rolling along, unchallenged, so they do not know what it is to be subjected to the type of treatment John has had to endure. We can also thank our "all knowing media" for their help in projecting John Ford into his predicament! >Can you testify to first hand knowledge of his persecution? If >so, can you share it here? Anything to inspire a little more of >MY righteous indignation. I'm interested. We should all be >_keenly_ interested. It appears that Preston Nickols was using John's truck one evening to go somewhere when he was deliberately run off the road and left for dead. John thought they were after him, and got Preston by mistake. This was a while before John was arrested. I will make an attempt to see if I have John's words on audio tape to back this statment up. It has been several years since those conversations and I could be a little off in the details. I will let you know later. >The Suffolk county political machine maintains that all of >Ford's evidence is a fabrication produced by Ford's unstable >mental condition. It seems you have first hand confirmation of >his veracity. Beyond its use to support an academic point, can >you testify to it, here? I have the testimonies of those whom I talked with who verified the crackdown on SouthHaven Park, during the time frame which John says the "crash" occurred in. I am not sure, but it is possible that I may have some audio tape of some of those phone conversations here somewhere. >>I even wrote in protest to the Long Island Police Chief about >>the way John and his group were being treated. I received a >>reply, which I still have in my data base. >God bless you, sir! Can you share it here? Yes I can. Here it is: Michael Christol UFO/PARANORMAL INVESTIGATIONS 2610 W. 5th. St. Owensboro, Ky. 42301 February 14, 1993 Police Commissioner c/o Suffolk County Police Dept. Yaphank Ave. Yaphank, New York 11980 Dear Commissioner, I am writing you in regards to an incident initially reported as Police Report Number 93-13373. It is my understanding that this incident occurred on January 9th of this year and involved Police Officer (shield number) 3453 (5th Precinct) who was associated with Police Car number 522. It is my further understanding that this officer stopped and detained without legal cause members of the Long Island UFO Network (LIUFON), harassed them while they were unlawfully detained, and threatened continued harassment at an unspecified later date. Apparently this unwarranted action was in response to the LIUFON member's legal distribution of literature supportive of their research and investigation into matters pertaining to an incident that happened in South Haven Park on November 24, 1992. Please understand that these individuals, functioning according to the laws of a free and democratic society, fully intend to pursue all avenues of recourse regarding this matter as well as aggressively pursue their research and investigation regarding the South Haven Park incident. As the chief law enforcement official in your jurisdiction it is your fiduciary responsibility as well as your civic duty to uphold the laws of our country and its subdivisions - not to encourage, directly allow, or allow through inaction the breaking of those laws. I hope that as this matter unfolds the members of the LIUFON can count on the positive cooperation of the members of their local law enforcement community. Sincerely, Michael Christol CC: John Ford - LIUFON ---------------------------------------------------------------- The Reply to Me: Date: 06-23-93 22:18 Subj: Letter Ok John, Here is the copy of the letter I received from the Suffolk Police Department. ---------------------------------------------------------------- COUNTY OF SUFFOLK <SEAL> ROBERT J. GAFFNEY PETER F. COSGROVE County Executive Police Commissioner POLICE DEPARTMENT April 29, 1993 Mr. Michael Christol UFO/PARANORMAL Investigations 2610 W. 5th Street Owensboro, Ky. 42301 RE: Alert #93-94 Dear Mr. Christol: At the direction of Police Commissioner Peter F. Cosgrove, I was charged with investigating the incident in which our Officers confronted members of "The Long Island U.F.O. Network, Inc." on January 9, 1993. As you know, our Officers received a call from a citizen reporting suspicious persons going door to door reporting U.F.O.'s were sighted in the area (CC#93-013373). Accordingly, the Officers responded and conducted an investigation. Upon identifying the individuals involved and ascertaining that they were not engaged in any criminal activity, those persons were permitted to continue on their way. Our investigation has been unable to substantiate that our Officers were rude or unprofessional. Members of your organization were not unlawfully detained, nor were their constitutional rights infringed. Serious accusations of this type are not looked upon lightly by this department. As to your concerns that our Officers would, in the future, continue to investigate calls of suspicious persons, even those that might involve your members, please rest assured that we will. We are sworn to protect our citizens and we will investigate any such calls we may receive, no matter who is engaged in the questionable behavior. As we continually strive to maintain the high level of professionalism of our Officers, we thank you for bringing this incident to our attention for review. If you have any further questions, feel free to contact me at 854-8502. Sincerely, Edward J. Bienz, Deputy Inspector Executive Officer Fifth Precinct 30 YAPHANK AVENUE, YAPHANK, NEW YORK 11980 - (516) 852-6000 ---------------------------------------------------------------- >It does seem to strain credulity, and remember -- this was a >conspiracy of three. _Three_ people had to demonstrate this >lunacy, simultaneously. One of the three was a Suffolk county >tool. If I remember correctly, John wasn't the only person associated with him who wound up in Jail. I am not talking about the other two people who are linked to John in the toothpaste deal. Do you know anything about this? >>So, they take John, claim he is "mentally ill," and stick him in >>a mental hospital, so he cannot continue to bombard the media >>and the internet with his beliefs in regard to what happened on >>Long Island. >So -- two years in an institution for the criminally insane, >followed by three years in regular gulag once it has been >determined that he is competent to stand trial. Why can't he get >a trial? What about *right* to _speedy_ trial? Why are we so >blithely tolerant of this strange and unusual persecution? Americans have been Dumbed down. We have been shown what happens to those who choose to "be different." To abide by a different set of Ides and Ideals. All we need do is look to "Waco, Texas," and to the Lannie Weaver incident. It is just their way of saying "stay in line, or this will happen to you." I guess we could go all the way back to the "Kent State," incident also to show that American men in Uniform will fire on other Americans! >>I personally don't think John was dangerous. I think he was set >>up. He was sometimes paranoid and always eccentric, but that >>does not make him a "murderer". >Your assessment contributes to the unanimous, with regard to >those that new him. Still, he rots in jail! Yes and I don't know anything that can be done, short of a loud outcry by the Majority of the "American Public." What do you think the chances of that happening are? Remember, these are the same people who are bombarded with weekly TV programs such as "Cops!" They are use to seeing "the official" side of the story, but very seldom see the other side once they are arrested. I am not saying that many of these people don't need to be restrained, for the safety of their families, but some may well be wronged. >All within the letter of the law, the constitution, and our >alleged societal ethic . . . still, . . . Yes, STILL! But remember one thing. Even in Bibical times, Jesus said to the Pharasees: YOU live by the letter of the law, but not by the Spirit of the law. In other words, their heads were in it but not their hearts. This is where Society exists today in this country. >>Not only that, but I have been unable to locate one of his >>right hand associates within LIUFON, Brian Levins, who has >>disappeared from his last known residence and phone number. >>This occurred in 1997, I think. >A peculiar *coincidence*, pregnant with portentous potentials? If you can find any information about Brian, please let me know. AS of now, his disappearance is just a ? >>I have come to the conclusion that he may in fact be dead! He >>and I were very close associates. We exchanged video tapes, >>files and the latest information occurring in ufology. >Dead! I pray that we are wrong here. >>He had a TV Program on Long Island, with Kenny Lloyd, called >>"UFOs With Levins And Lloyd", a local access cable program on >>the Island. >>After I could not locate Brian, I called Kenny Lloyd and ask if >>he knew where Brian was, and he gave me the impression that he >>hadn't seen him in several months. He was not the least >>concerned when I told him I had been unable to locate Brian. >>That seems quite strange to me, considering the two of them >>worked TV Show a year or more. >What do you make of this, on reflection? I think his reaction to my call was one of surprise that someone was asking about Brian. He seemed to be caught flatfooted, not really knowing how to answer. And the one he gave was not acceptabel to me. How could he not know anything about Brian???? ><snip> >I heard Laura Lee mention him briefly on her radio program last >week. I missed her point in some AM static, and have yet to dig >it out of her archives, but she seemed remarkably unconcerned >about his situation. I find this behavior baffling, >cross-purposed, and dangerous. Forgive my seeming impertinence, >but the plight of John Ford chaps my ass. If you dig this out, let me know. I would like to check this out also. >John Ford should be promoted out of the ambivalence we extend to >him. He was fighting the good fight when he was taken down in a >way that can only be described as above the law. John Ford is >each one of us, on the one hand, and on the other a strident and >more involved warrior for our cause. He deserves attention that >he is just not getting. Restore John Ford! I agree. Had I been there, On Long Island, as a part of his local working group, I may well have been a part of this sad situation. But living in Kentucky, I was only remotely involved. >Lehmberg@snowhill.com Take care Alfred. Keep up the long fight. REgards, Mike Download ICQ at http://www.icq.com/ ICQ#:7508455 BBS: (502) 683-3026 Fax: (502) 686-7394 Home: (502) 683-6811 ---
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 27 Updated Sheffield Incident Site From: Max Burns <AlienHype@aol.com> Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 23:53:00 EST Fwd Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 22:46:10 -0500 Subject: Updated Sheffield Incident Site For your information, The updated Sheffield Incident, can be read at this site http://www.abduct.com/aaer/_aaer.htm The Sheffield Incident A Flying Triangle Incident Comments are welcome Max Burns
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 27 Who Is/Was Gen. W.B. Smith? From: Lesley Cluff <manitou@fox.nstn.ca> Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 02:12:46 -0500 Fwd Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 22:50:53 -0500 Subject: Who Is/Was Gen. W.B. Smith? Got lucky and came across Co. Philip J. Corso's book, The Day After Roswell, at a remainders sale in a local mall for only about one-fifth the original cost of the hardback! And WOW, this is almost scary stuff! Rumours, wild guesses, even intelligent researched guesses had the advantage that you could either believe them or not, or just hold them in mind until enough evidence comes along to indicate the most appropriate perception. What Corso is talking about here, well, a lot of it is the old rumours etc that I really wasn't sure I ever wanted to know might be true. And I am not even half way through the book! The mystery is gone! He offers the info in a context that those of us who were a bit too young, or among the unborn, back in the fifties that we could never have known, but he was in the center of the paranoia, and in a position to know about the st ate of mind of the American people and its armed forces at that time. Within the context he offers (accurate from my own knowledge of history of the period, since I was still a glint in dad's eye in 1947), a lot of bits and pieces of information (rumour or disinformation we have all wondered at times) make sense which without that context, were pretty much unbelievable. Now, a question: On page 74, Corso lists the first members of Pres Truman's 'working group'. One of the people listed is Secretary of Defense, James Forrestal. On page 82, Corso says Forrestal committed suicide two years into the Truman administration, and was replaced in this group by a General W.B. Smith. Question: Who was General W.B. Smith? Anyone know where he came from or anything about his background? What do W. and B. stand for? And what eventually happened to him? Where is he now? I have a feeling Corso has revealed something he doesn't realize he has revealed. But I could be all wrong. Do let me know if anyone has any info on this Smith guy? Lesley manitou@fox.nstn.ca -- Lesley Cluff, Ontario, Canada manitou@fox.nstn.ca
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 27 Zecharia Sitchin? From: Josh Goldstein <clearlt@pacbell.net> Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 04:02:57 -0800 Fwd Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 23:01:47 -0500 Subject: Zecharia Sitchin? Hello UpDates, I'd like to ask a question I've wondered for many years yet never got around to seriously investigating. What do other Sumerian scholars (noted and degreed) feel regarding Zecheriah Sitchin's interpretations of the Sumerian tablets? Thanks,
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 27 Alien Invasion -- From Rod Allen, Times & From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net> Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 08:26:42 -0400 Fwd Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 23:30:25 -0500 Subject: Alien Invasion -- From Rod Allen, Times & I was sent this message by a reporter. These 2 characters seem not to understand that worrying about an invasion as a response to a message from Earth assumes aliens can get here fairly promptly. If they can now (or at least 5 years from now) than obviously they almost certainly could have 50 or 500 years ago. Alien visitations should be of far greater importance than mere message sending. Stan ------ From: Allen, Rod <Rod.Allen@timestranscript.com> To: 'fsphys@brunnet.net' <fsphys@brunnet.net> Date: Friday, February 26, 1999 2:19 PM Subject: alien invasion -- from rod allen, times & transcript To Stanton Friedman - TORONTO (CP) - Two Defence Department scientists are urging the government to avert an alien invasion by preventing amateur UFO chasers from beaming careless messages into space. Yvan Dutil and Stephane Dumas, who work as astrophysicists at the Defence Research Establishment in Valcartier, Que., make the appeal in an e-mail to the prime minister, the National Post reports from Ottawa. The scientists, who are also engaged in trying to make contact with extraterrestrial life, want the government to regulate any communications intended for aliens. They fear that inexperienced UFO chasers could inadvertently invite an invasion from other worlds. "Sooner or later, messages carelessly designed might put Earth at risk," says their e-mail, also sent to the Reform defence critic and obtained by the Post. "For example, UFO cultists could send a message through space asking extraterrestrials to come and rule Earth." Peter Donolo, rarely at a loss for words as the prime minister's communications director, was almost speechless when told of the scientists' request. "Come on, this is insane," Donolo told the Post. "We are not aware that fraternizing with aliens from outer space is a problem." But Dutil says he and his colleague are genuinely concerned. "The main proposal is if you want to send something into space, the message should have to be checked out," Dutil told the Post. "It is not stupid to do this since (such messages) may imply danger, so you have to be careful. It is like playing with dynamite. "There is a concern, for example, you have a religious group that believes in extraterrestrials as God and they want to call God to come here and who knows what might happen? If there is advanced civilization in space and they receive this kind of message, they may come here and still play God." Dutil said the efforts of he and Dumas to contact aliens is unrelated to their work at the Defence department. The scientists are privately involved with a project called Encounter 2001 which hopes to make contact with otherworldly life by beaming messages from a powerful transmitter in Ukraine. From Rod Allen, Times & Transcript, Moncton phone 383 2526 fax 859 4904 e-mail - allenr@timestranscript.com Thought you might be interested! Any comment?
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 27 Re: South Australian UFO Report From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net> Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 06:59:42 -0800 Fwd Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 23:49:07 -0500 Subject: Re: South Australian UFO Report >From: Greg St. Pierre <StrmNut@aol.com> >Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 18:11:29 EST >To: updates@globalserve.net >Subject: Re: South Australian UFO Report >>From: Diane Harrison <tkbnetw@fan.net.au> >>To: UFO UpDates <updates@globalserve.net>, >>Subject: South Australian UFO Report >>Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 23:48:47 +1000 >>I noticed that although the low - level bushes on the side of >>the road were swaying violently in a north/south direction, the >>surrounding trees did not appear to be affected by any breeze. >I seem to recall another case from the UK wherein trees and/or >other foliage were seen by a policeman to be violently affected >by the close proximity of a UFO. >Anyone know of other similar cases? >Greg Dear Greg: I found a few more cases of UFOs twisting and perverting our green leafy friends! Let us hope they are not sucking out their precious vegetal fluids as well. Searching the records by an attribute (VEG as in vegetation affected) combined with a series of search words (twist, break, broken, thrash) I pulled out the following records: Please see below for a short explanation of my peculiar fields.. #626: 1947/4/0 08:20hrs 2mn 2:42:20E 45:8:0N 3313 WEU FRN CNT 8 6 COL-DE-SERRE,FRance: SLNT 30M DOMED SCR HVRS OVR CAR: TREES BEND:VFAST /LDLN#249 Ref# 3 VALLEE:UFO ENIGMA: Challenge/Science Page No. 139. PASTURE #2524: 1952/9/22 1800h 10mn 115:45:0W 48:49:0N 3332 NAM USA MNT 8 6 YAAK,MT: RUMOR/RADAR-MEN:UFO LANDS:BREAKS TREES: HOPS ABOUT+FLIES WHEN MIL NEARS Ref# 136 GROSS,L.:UFOs a HISTORY-1952 Book 5 of 6, Pg 44. MIL. BASE #4700: 1957/4/22 13:0 10 2:40:0E 42:28:0N 3333 WEU FRN PYO 7 7 PALALDA,FR: 5M FLAMING DISK HVRS/VINYARD:WILD SPINS: VINES THRASH:>>NE:/r8#391 Ref# 141 GROSS,L: UFOs a HISTORY-1957, Book 2 of 10 Pg 46 FARMs #6234: 1964/11/8 23:0 2 73:35:40W 45:56:0N 3333 NAM CAN QBC 7 6 ST ALEXIS/MONTCALM,QB:GLOW-OBJ/TREES: CRUSHED+BROKEN BRANCHES: /r180p32 + /LDLN#76 Ref# 24 NICAP: UFO INVESTIGATOR Volume 3 Issue 3. FOREST #6886: 1966/6/27 0400hrs 8min. 2:30:0E 42:9:0N 3333 WEU SPN GER 7 9 CISTELLA,SPain: SCR LANDS, THEN 2 CYLS!: ALL TAKE OFF in SMOKE: TWISTED BRANCHES + BURNS Ref# 50 OLMOS/CUFOS:CATALOG SPAIN & PORTUGAL, Pg 10 Mtns #7374: 1967/6/21 0000h [?] 77:23:0W 37:37:0N 3333 NAM USA VRG 7 7 MECHANICSVILLE,VA: HUGE DOMED OBJ RISES from WOODS with ROCKET NOISE: TREES BROKEN: /NICAP Ref# 180 PHILLIPS,Ted/CUFOS: PHYSICAL TRACES: Page No. 49 FOREST #7394: 1967/7/5 04:20h 1min 72:17:0W 41:47:0N 3333 NAM USA CNC 4 8 COVENTRY,CT: BALL/LITE HVRS LO/SKY:GRASS TWISTED FLAT: big communications.base: /LDLN#93 Ref# 113 LORENZEN, ENCOUNTERS w UFO OCC's Pg 13. RESIDENT'L #7409: 1967/7/17 15:20 65 6:23:0E 47:4:0N 3333 WEU FRN DBS 10 7 ARC-SOUS-CICON,FR: 4 KIDS:3 DARK OIDS: MUSICAL SPEECH! BROKEN PLANTS+FPRINTS: /r30 [ = OVNI Catalog by Figuet & Ruchon ] Ref# 194 LUMIERES dans la NUIT.(Paris) Issue No. 95 MOUNTAINS #7612: 1967/10/24 22:20 1 1:55:0W 53:16:0N 3333 WEU GBI ENG 7 6 BUXTON,ENGL: 30'RND OBJ SEEN:YLW GLOW/REAR. "CAUSES TREETOPS TO BEND": NFD [<= No Further Detail available ] Ref# 24 NICAP: UFO INVESTIGATOR Vol. 4 Issue 4. TOWN &CITY #8103: 1968/9/26 [? hrs] 1 7:33:0E 46:8:0N 3331 WEU SWZ VLS 6 7 VILLA<>SASSENEIRE,SWZ: TREES TWIST: Mrs Gaspoz feels no wind: 20M SCR ascends FAST Ref# 230 LDLN CONTACT LECTEURS series '68-'72 Vol. 4 Issue 3. Mtns #8441: 1969/6/17 2:0 45 47:13:0W 23:39:0S 3333 SAM BRZ SPL 7 7 IBIUNA,BRZ: 2 OBS: 30'DOMED SCR BEAMS UP: 26 FEET of'BROKEN VEG: SCRS+FBLS seen for months /r156#6. Ref# 180 PHILLIPS,Ted: PHYSICAL TRACES: Pg 65. RESIDENT'L #9201: 1972/8/12 4:50 4 4:39:0E 46:26:0N 3333 WEU FRN S&L 7 9 S/CLUNY,FR: NLTS ORBIT ORG.OVOID:CARS STOP: BROKEN BRANCHES found: /FSRv19#4+/LDLN#122 Ref# 193 PHENOMENA SPATIAUX Quarterly, Paris Issue #35. RESIDENT'L #9228: 1972/8/24 0300 2mn 43:56:0W 19:55:0S 3332 SAM BRZ MGR 8 8 BELO HORIZONTE,BRZL: SVRL OBS:UFO LANDS:3 FIGs OUTSIDE: BROKEN TREES+BURNT GRASS Ref# 231 CONTACT/UK: The UFO REGISTER by year YEAR =78 TOWNs #9464: 1973/4/3 11:30 1 90:44:40W 36:56:0N 3333 NAM USA MSO 8 7 ELLSINORE,MO: LRG SLNT DOMED MTL SCR RISES/WOODS: PORTHOLES+STILTS!: TREES BROKEN Ref# 160 MUFON UFO JOURNAL Issue No. 240. FOREST #12594: 1979/1/8 17:30h 3min: 10:47E - 43:42N 3333 WEU ITL PI 7 7 S.CROCE SULL'ARNO,ITL:40M SCR/10M alt:ANTENNA/DOME: TREE BENDS : ANIMALS FRANTIC Ref# 39 ITACAT: Maurizio Verga CISU/Italy Page No. 142 FARMLANDS #13494: 1982/12/30 1830h 2mn: 93:21W 32:01N 3333 NAM USA LSN 7 8 COUSHATTA,LA: SVRL OBS:WHIRR+HISS: Double circle of NLTS hovers in trees: fast exit: BROKEN LIMBs found. Ref# 210 The APRO BULLETIN. (Lorenzen) Volume 31 Issue 8 RESIDENT'L #13612: 1984/1/20 0300h 5min 115:50:0E 31:52S 3333 OCN AUS WAU 8 9 HAZELMERE,W.AUSTRL: COPS+SVRL:30M VERT.CONE/LITE/YARD: TREES THRASH: EME [ Electromagnetic Effects -LH ] : /MFJ#196 Ref# 229 UFO RESEARCH AUSTRALIA NEWSLETTER : YEAR =84 No.1 #15567: 1993/1/29 2340h 10min: 122:09W 52:7:0N 3333 NAM CAN BCO 4 7 WILLIAMS LAKE,BC: SLNT VBRITE LITE BEAMS 600' TO HOUSE: broken tree found later. Ref# 60 UFO NEWSCLIPPING SERVICE: Issue #299. FOREST #16956: 1996/3/17 17:30h 2min: 49:12:0W 20:56:0S 3333 SAM BRZ SPL 8 7 IPIGUA,BRZ: BIRDS FLEE:12M SLNT MTLC SCR ascends: PALM TREE BENDS AWAY!:SCR NEST LEFT Ref# 236 BOLETIM CEPEX (Quarterly/Brazil) Issue No. 28 FARMLANDS Fields: #xxxxx is a case number for sorting purposes only. These change all the time. 19YY/MM/DD is the date the incident occurred, YYYY/MM/DD. The *U* UFO Database is fully Y2K compliant. [ Early records predate the Christian calendar. ] 17:30 is LOCAL LEGAL time, on a 24-hour clock. The hour is bumped ahead for Daylight Savings time, along with the witness' clocks. The "minutes" field that follows is ESTIMATED DURATION of the event. Longitude / Latitude is in degrees:minutes:seconds. In places I have deleted the "Seconds", often = zero, to accommodate Canadian line-length restrictions. 3333 (or the like) is a rating of TIME ACCURACY. 3 = known, 2 = approx., 1 is unknown, and 0 means irrelevant. 3210 means Year known; Month approx, day unknown and time-of day irrelevant. SAM BRZ SPL (as per case #16956 above) is Continent (South America), Country (Brazil), State/Province (Sao Paolo). The final 2 numbers are highly subjective ratings for Strangeness and Credibility, in that order, based on the Brown Beer scale (hexadecimal: 0 - F where F = 15.) The next two lines are a highly abbreviated synopsis. I have edited some of these for readability. Old *U* users are familiar with my peculiar but hopefully useful way of cramming the most info into a single line of text. The last line is the main reference. Other refs. are squeezed into the synopsis. The last item in the last line is the general terrain or location type for statistical purposes. Please email me privately for more info on the database. < larryhat@jps.net > Best wishes - Larry Hatch PS: I'm sure there are more relevant cases lurking in the data. I only tried 4 or 5 search words. -LH
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 27 Re: South Australian UFO Report From: John Hayes <jhayes@cableinet.co.uk> Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 16:20:59 +0000 Fwd Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 23:55:58 -0500 Subject: Re: South Australian UFO Report Hello Diane, Can I ask if it is permissable to post your reports in the News section of UFOINFO please? It seems a shame for them to 'disappear' after they have been posted on the mailing lists and could be of use if I keep them on the site.....you may of course already be archiving them on the web. Best wishes, John Hayes jhayes@cableinet.co.uk webmaster@ufoinfo.com UFOINFO:- http://ufoinfo.com UFO Roundup:- http://ufoinfo.com/roundup/ Filer's Files:- http://ufoinfo.com/filer/ UFOICQ Australian UFO Reports and Experiences:- http://ufoinfo.com/ufoicq/
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 28 Re: Who Is/Was Gen. W.B. Smith? From: Moderator UFO UpDates - Toronto Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 00:20:31 -0500 Fwd Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 00:20:31 -0500 Subject: Re: Who Is/Was Gen. W.B. Smith? Leslie, >Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 02:12:46 -0500 >From: Lesley Cluff <manitou@fox.nstn.ca> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: Who Is/Was Gen. W.B. Smith? <snip> >Question: Who was General W.B. Smith? Anyone know where he came >from or anything about his background? What do W. and B. stand >for? And what eventually happened to him? Where is he now? It's amazing what knowing what the initials stand for when using 'Dogpile' at dogpile.com [one of best search engines]. Here are pop-ups for General Walter Bedell Smith: 1. NORMANDY:1944 -- Smith, Walter Bedell Smith, Walter Bedell Walter Bedell Smith, 1946 By courtesy of the U.S. Army (b. Oct. 5,1895, Indianapolis, Indiana, U.S.--d. Aug. 9,1961, Washington, D.C.), U.S. Army general, diplomat, and administrator, who served as chief of staff for U.S... http://normandy.eb.com/ 2. Patton Cast Part of the 'Patton' and 'History in Film' web sites. Includes plot, outlines, worksheets and screen photos. http://www.hargray.com/ 3. Infosel - Algunas citas sobre ovnis de personajes importantes Algunas citas de personajes importantes referentes al fen=F3meno ovni. http://comunidades.infosel.com/ 4. General Walter Bedell Smith As Director Of Central Intelligence, October1950-February1953 by Montague, Ludell L.; General Walter Bedell Smith As Director Of Central Intelligence, October1950-February1953 by Montague, Ludell L.; Montague, Ludwell L. // Designed by Goodman, Allan E. ISBN Order-->click "Add To Cart" below More books like this--> BOOK TOPICS... http://www.opengroup.com/ 5. Nodule 00 - Page12 Nodule 00 Page12 of 43 Previous Page Next Page Table of Contents THE CIA The conspiracy to assassinate John F. Kennedy came out of a long history. http://www.weberman.com/ 6. NLE Bibliographies A Select Bibliography Central Intelligence Agency Beck, Melvin. Secret Contenders: The Myth of Cold War Counterintelligence. New York: Sheridan Square Publications,1984. Bissell, Richard M. Reflections of a Cold Warrior: From Yalta to the Bay of... http://redbud.lbjlib.utexas.edu/ 7. True Stories Books Alphabetic Index (G) from Open Group True Stories books alphabetic titles listing. http://www.openpublishing.com/ 8. THE RUSSIAN ELECTION THE RUSSIAN ELECTION by Olin Robison This commentary was first given on Vermont Public Radio on June 7,1996 One hundred fifty-seven years ago this week the Marquis de Custine set out from his home in France to tour Russia. This aristocratic... http://www.salsem.ac.at/ 9. Secretary of State Dulles on Israeli Withdrawal Cyber encyclopedia that covers everything from anti-Semitism to Zionism. http://www.us-israel.org/ 10. Warfighting Rules 11. The Bilderberg Group: Planning the World's Future Behind Closed Doors A ParaScope special report on the Bilderberg Group, with details of the1998 meeting in Ayrshire, Scotland. http://www.parascope.com/ 12. FACTBOOK ON INTELLIGENCE The Genesis of the CIA The United States has carried on foreign intelligence activities since the days of George Washington, but only since World War II have they been coordinated on a government-wide basis. Even before Pearl Harbor, President... http://wn.bilkent.edu.tr/ 13. Bilderberg and the NWO risephoenix home This article is copied from Parascope The Bilderberg and the New World Order Bilderberg Meets Secretly in Toronto From Staff Reports The Bilderberg, the highest echelon of the global financial and political elite, recently met at... http://www1.geocities.com/ 14. Natura 6/1997 - Recenze - Otto Skorzeny: Me velitelske operace Natura 6/1997 - Recenze - Otto Skorzeny: Me velitelske operace http://www.ujep.cz/ 15. Planet Ten (The Library Page) "> Associated Links Previous Letter Next Letter Quotes Home Page Library Page Collie's Home Page Quotations S Sachs - Saint-Exupiry - Sandburg - Santayana - Sante - Schiller - Schultz - Schurz - Schwambach - Schweitzer - Seneca - Shakespeare - Shaw. http://www.uniblab.com/ 16.1996 Bilderberg conference in Toronto - participants and articles Index | Homepage | Good Index | Good Links | Bad Index | Bad Links Bilderberg |1998 |1997 |1996 |1995 | Reports | Origins | Bernhard Bilderberg Conferences1996 Bilderberg Conference - CIBC Leadership Centre, Toronto, Canada Spotlight Article . http://www.tlio.demon.co.uk/ 17. http://gopher.nara.gov:70/ Records of the Central Intelligence Agency [CIA] (Record Group 263)1894-1986 (bulk1947-74) 413 cu. ft.163.1 ADMINISTRATIVE HISTORY Established: In the National Security Council, effective September18,1947, pursuant to the National Security Act. http://gopher.nara.gov:70/ 18. Eisenhower Library audiovisiual Holdings AUDIOVISUAL HOLDINGS The audiovisual collection of the Eisenhower Library constitutes a valuable documentary resource relating to the life and times of Dwight D. Eisenhower. To date, the Library has accessioned309,762 still photographs, 537 motion. http://history.cc.ukans.edu/ 19. Conservative Calendar October The Conservative Calendar for the Month of October (Each day lists the men and events commemorated and characteristic quotes are added; Special thanks go to Bob Schadler, The Philadelphia Society Member who provided the information)1998... http://www.townhall.com/ 10. The Bilderbergers The Bilderberg Group - The Invisible Power House - With its membership selected from the power =E9lite of Europe and North America, many wonder if the Bilderbergers are conspiring to establish a 'new world order'. Extracted from Nexus Magazine... http://www.bgw.net/ 11. The Bilderbergers The Bilderberg Group - The Invisible Power House - With its membership selected from the power =E9lite of Europe and North America, many wonder if the Bilderbergers are conspiring to establish a 'new world order'. =A91994 by Armen Victorian, PO Box 99. http://www.magna.com.au/ 12. The Bilderbergers Return to american-photo.com HOME PAGE | SUBS INFO | BACK ISSUES | PRODUCTS LIST | ORDER FORM The Bilderberg Group - The Invisible Power House -With its membership selected from the power =E9lite ofEurope and North America, many wonder if the... http://american-photo.com/ 13. The Bilderbergers HOME PAGE | SUBS INFO | BACK ISSUES | PRODUCTS LIST | ORDER FORM The Bilderberg Group - The Invisible Power House - With its membership selected from the power =E9lite of Europe and North America, many wonder if the Bilderbergers are conspiring to... http://www.icom.net/ 14. The Bilderbergers HOME PAGE | SUBS INFO | BACK ISSUES | PRODUCTS LIST | ORDER FORM The Bilderberg Group - The Invisible Power House - With its membership selected from the power =E9lite of Europe and North America, many wonder if the Bilderbergers are conspiring to... http://www.altnews.com.au/ 15. Daily Revolution - Freaky Friday - ,1997 - News for the Third Millennium The Daily Revolution - Research Tools and News for the third millennium - Teachers and students of all ages love our Daily Features and West Florida Edition Tampa Bay / St. Petersburg's first Online Daily Newspaper with live weather views, chat, ga http://dailyrevolution.com/ 16. February 09 On February 09.. 40th day of the year with325 days left (Numerology =3D1) Happy Birthday to: In1404, Constantine XI Dragases, last Byzantine Emperor In1441, Ali Sjir Neva'i [Fani], Turkish poet/author (Mahbub al-kulub) In1578, Giambattista... http://tako.wwa.com/ 17. Transylvania - The Roots of Ethnic Conflict Transylvania - The Roots of Ethnic Conflict THE ROLE OF TRANSYLVANIA IN SOVIET POLICY As the armistice agreement declared the Vienna Award of August30,1940, to be null and void, the Hungarian government was looking for a solution of the... http://www.hu.net/ 18. The Creation of the Central Intelligence Group Salvage and Liquidation The Creation of the Central Intelligence Group Michael Warner Editor's Note: This article is an expanded version of one that appeared under the same title in the fall 1995 edition of Studies in Intelligence. January1996... http://www.odci.gov/ 19. The Battle of Normandy The Battle of Normandy An Overview In the years since1945, it has become increasingly evident that the Grand Alliance forged between the British Commonwealth and the United States was often beset with disagreement over the correct strategy to... http://www.history.rochester.edu/ 20. The Bilderbergers The Bilderberg Group - The Invisible Power House - With its membership selected from the power =E9lite of Europe and North America, many wonder if the Bilderbergers are conspiring to establish a 'new world order'. Extracted from Nexus Magazine... http://www.bgw.net/ 21. The Bilderbergers The Bilderberg Group - The Invisible Power House - With its membership selected from the power =E9lite of Europe and North America, many wonder if the Bilderbergers are conspiring to establish a 'new world order'. =A9 1994 by Armen Victorian, PO Box 99. http://www.magna.com.au/ 22. The Bilderbergers Return to american-photo.com HOME PAGE | SUBS INFO | BACK ISSUES | PRODUCTS LIST | ORDER FORM The Bilderberg Group - The Invisible Power House -With its membership selected from the power =E9lite ofEurope and North America, many wonder if the... http://american-photo.com/ 23. The Bilderbergers HOME PAGE | SUBS INFO | BACK ISSUES | PRODUCTS LIST | ORDER FORM The Bilderberg Group - The Invisible Power House - With its membership selected from the power =E9lite of Europe and North America, many wonder if the Bilderbergers are conspiring to... http://www.icom.net/ 24. The Bilderbergers HOME PAGE | SUBS INFO | BACK ISSUES | PRODUCTS LIST | ORDER FORM The Bilderberg Group - The Invisible Power House - With its membership selected from the power =E9lite of Europe and North America, many wonder if the Bilderbergers are conspiring to... http://www.altnews.com.au/ 25. Daily Revolution - Freaky Friday - , 1997 - News for the Third Millennium The Daily Revolution - Research Tools and News for the third millennium - Teachers and students of all ages love our Daily Features and West Florida Edition Tampa Bay / St. Petersburg's first Online Daily Newspaper with live weather views, chat, ga http://dailyrevolution.com/ 26. February 09 On February 09.. 40th day of the year with 325 days left (Numerology =3D2) Happy Birthday to: In 1404, Constantine XI Dragases, last Byzantine Emperor In 1441, Ali Sjir Neva'i [Fani], Turkish poet/author (Mahbub al-kulub) In 1578, Giambattista... http://tako.wwa.com/ 27. Transylvania - The Roots of Ethnic Conflict Transylvania - The Roots of Ethnic Conflict THE ROLE OF TRANSYLVANIA IN SOVIET POLICY As the armistice agreement declared the Vienna Award of August 30, 1940, to be null and void, the Hungarian government was looking for a solution of the... http://www.hu.net/ 28. The Creation of the Central Intelligence Group Salvage and Liquidation The Creation of the Central Intelligence Group Michael Warner Editor's Note: This article is an expanded version of one that appeared under the same title in the fall 1995 edition of Studies in Intelligence. January 1996... http://www.odci.gov/ 29. The Battle of Normandy The Battle of Normandy An Overview In the years since 1945, it has become increasingly evident that the Grand Alliance forged between the British Commonwealth and the United States was often beset with disagreement over the correct strategy to... http://www.history.rochester.edu/ 30. The Creation of the Central Intelligence Group Salvage and Liquidation The Creation of the Central Intelligence Group Michael Warner Editor's Note: This article is an expanded version of one that appeared under the same title in the fall 1995 edition of Studies in Intelligence. January1996... http://www.terrorism.net/ 31. Towards a Global Government To get the complete story, lets go back to a time before this country was colonized. The plan to create a Global government for the world is over100 years old. This is going to be focused to just point out the major facts and then you can do... http://www.freespeech.org/ 32. http://www.eagle-net.org/ [PART16] FIRE FROM THE SKY by "One Who Knows" [NOTE: The following information is taken from the tail end of a long series by an unknown author with "inside" information on a secret particle-beam "SDI/STAR WARS" conflict between the U.S. and... http://www.eagle-net.org/ 33. Information Regarding UFOs (Aliens) More information on request... http://www.savba.sk/ 34. Unacknowledged, by Steven M. Greer, M.D., CSETI Unacknowledged, by Steven M. Greer, M.D., CSETI - From cogenesis journal: voices of the transformation, a publication of Eos Co-Creations. http://www.cogenesis.com/ 35. RUSSIA RUSSIA "Government has been the indispensable handmaiden of private wealth since the origin of society. And far from having embellished history with a significant exception, the government of the United States, without the camouflage of custom or... http://www.greencity.com/ 36. Unacknowledged UNACKNOWLEDGED by Steven M. Greer M.D. International Director, Center for the Search for Extraterrestrial Intelligence/CSETI Can the government keep a secret? A really big secret - the biggest of all time? When the peccadilloes of every politician.. http://www3.pair.com/ 37. Deadline Expires on CSETI Ultimatum to US Government regarding UFO >Position Papers by Dr. Greer< | NEW Additional Position Papers Can the government keep a secret? A really big secret - the biggest of all time? When the peccadillos of every politician and government leader are prime time news, could the... http://cseti.org/ 38. Joining The War At Sea - Chapter Eleven Chapter Eleven - Germany Capitulates Published book now available direct from the author by clicking here. Copyright 1998 Franklyn E. Dailey Jr. - dailey@crocker.com Joining The War At Sea - Table of Contents Form a Task Force, Execute Mission... http://www.daileyint.com/ 39. http://www9.pair.com/ Date: Sun,14 MAR199610:15:36 -0700 From: Gayle Ross @centuryinter.net> Newgroups: alt.conspiracy Subject: The NEW WORLD ORDER is dead! To: All who are concerned about the New World Order The New World Order is dead, long live the GLOBAL... http://www9.pair.com/ 40. http://fhss.byu.edu/ Political Science 471 US Intelligence and National Security Brigham Young University Instructor: Dr. Stan A. Taylor Office Hours: MWF3:00-4:00 Course Description: This is a graduate and undergraduate level seminar in which student reading plays a.. http://fhss.byu.edu/ Warfighting Rules Common Sense And Not So Common Sense If the enemy is in range, so are you. If its stupid, but it works, it ain't stupid. You are not Superman. Never draw fire; it irritates everyone around you. When in doubt, empty the magazine... http://home.fia.net/ Roswell incident, original members of Majestic-12 Roswell, New Mexico, probably the most famous or infamous place to UFO buffs around the world. This page deals with the Roswell Incident as it is called. http://www.fortunecity.com/roswell/lefanu/260/roswell.htm Untitled Central Intelligence Agency An Annotated Checklist Prepared by Dr. Walter Pforzheimer April1996 Dr. Pforzheimer was the first curator of the CIA's famous Historical Intelligence Collection.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 28 UFO-Landing Case With Picture In 1968 From: Werner Walter <113236.1604@compuserve.com> Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 17:03:09 -0500 Fwd Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 00:24:06 -0500 Subject: UFO-Landing Case With Picture In 1968 Hello, Now I read the MUFON UFO Journal from December 1998. In a article about Ted Phillips, Dwight Connelly writes about a UFO-landing case in 1968. Nearby was a daylight photo of the UFO taken. Thats a sensation because I don't remember a case in which a UFO was photographed which has produced landing-traces. Has anyone more informations about this case and can send me the picture of this UFO?
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 28 Remarkable 'Meteors' From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com> Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 19:27:25 -0500 Fwd Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 00:37:26 -0500 Subject: Remarkable 'Meteors' Barry Greenwood has claimed that the "remarkable meteors" seen by crew members of the USS Supply in 1904 actually were meteors. My calculations suggest that they were "too remarkable" to be meteors. [] REMARKABLEmeteor.txt Even More Remarkable - The USS Supply Sighting of 1904 by Bruce Maccabee In his premier issue of the "UFO Historical Review," author Barry Greenwood has presented what would seem to be a reasonable explanation for a sighting of three glowing bodies passing through the atmosphere by several members of the crew of the USS Supply, a Naval ship, on February 28, 1904. Greenwood has made the not-surprising suggestion that these were meteors. The main factors that seem inconsistent with the meteor hypothesis are the claims that (a) the meteors "did come below the clouds" estimated at about 1 mile (1.6 km) high, (b) they did "soar instead of continuing their southeasterly course" which would have taken them over the ship and (c) they were seen for "over two minutes." The quotes are from the report written by Lt. Frank H. Scofield as published in the Monthly Weather Review, March, 1904 and reproduced below. (Note: Scofield eventually became the Chief of Naval Operations.) The meaning of "soar" as used here is that the glowing objects appeared to travel roughly horizontally (constant altitude) below the clouds as they approached the ship, and then they appeared to climb through the cloud altitude and move directly away from the ship, to "soar" into the heavens, at a constant angular elevation of about 75 degrees (but not radially away from the center of the earth; the angular elevation would have to be 90 degrees for a radial departure). Scofield's report, entitled "Remarkable Meteors," begins as the objects were first sighted by the Officer of the Deck and then by two other people on deck. The objects "appeared near the horizon and below the clouds, traveling in a group from northwest by north (true) directly toward the ship. At first their angular motion was rapid and color a rather bright red. As they approached the ship they appeared to soar, passing above the clouds at an elevation of about 45 deg. After rising above the clouds their angular motion became less and less until it ceased, when they appeared to be moving direcly away from the earth at an elevation of about 75 deg. and in direction west-northwest (true). It was noted that the color became less pronounced as the meteors gained in angular elevation. When sighted the largest meteor was in the lead, followed by the second in size at a distance of less than twice the diameter of the larger and then by the third in size at a similar distance from the second in size. They appeared to be traveling in echelon and so continued as long as in sight. The largest meteor had an apparent area of about six suns. It was egg shaped, the sharper end forward. This end was jagged in outline. The after end was regular and full in outline. The second and third meteors were round and showed no imperfections in shape. The second meteor was estimated to be twice the size of the sun in appearance and the third meteor about the size of the sun. When the meteors rose there was no change in relative position; nor was there at any time any evidence of rotation or tumbling of the larger meteor. I estimated the clouds to be not over 1 mile high. The near approach of these meteors to the surface and the subsequent flight away from the surface appear to be most remarkable, especially so as their actual size could not have been great. That they did come below the clouds and soar instead of continuing their southeasterly course is also equally certain, as the angular motion ceased and the color faded as they rose. The clouds, in passing between the meteors and the shop completely obscured the former. Blue sky could be seen in the intervals between the clouds. The meteors were in sight for over two minutes and were carefully observed by three people, whose accounts agree as to details. (the Officer on Deck) sent a messenger to me who brought an untelligible message. When I arrived on the bridge the meteors had been obscured for about one-half minute." Lt. Scofield carefully interviewed the witnesses shortly after the sighting and then compiled this report which would have us believe that "meteors" traveled "in echelon" (a flying formation) underneath the 1 mile high cloud layer and then rose upward, passing above the cloud layer and apparently moving directly away from the ship. As Greenwood pointed out in his article, the statement that they were traveling for a period of time below the clouds is sufficient to reject the meteor hypothesis. The report of traveling "in echelon" and then rising upward above the clouds further contradicts the meteor explanation. Nevertheless, Greenwood argues that these were meteors for the following reasons: 1). although the witnesses claimed that the objects were below the clouds, this was an "optical illusion" because they were initially at a very great distance near the horizon; they only appeared to the "below the clouds"; they were only seen through "intervals" in the cloud cover; hence they could have been far above the clouds. 2). the initial great distance made them look red (atmospheric reddening, as with sunlight on the horizon) and as they traveled along they got closer to the ship so the distance light had to travel through the atmosphere continually decreased and the red color diminished. 3). the existence of three objects can be explained as a result of a single large meteor breaking into three parts. 4). there were no trails reported, but meteors don't always have trails. 5). the two minute duration is not inconsistent with known durations of meteors (Greenwood cites a 100 sec meteor observation in 1972). These reasons seem "reasonable." And yet, Scofield seemed "awfully certain" that these objects were below the clouds. As Greenwood stated in his article, "...if the objects were below a cloud cover...it is unlikely that they were meteors without their having impacted nearby. It also strains logic to think that large meteors would take an upward turn that close to the surface and disappear from view." More than 20 years ago, when I became interested in this sighting report (published in NICAP's UFO Evidence) I decided to do something no one else had ever done (and Greenwood did not do). I decided to check the original record to see if there was anything left out of Scofield's report. There was. The log of the U. S. Naval Ship Supply is at the National Archives. For the date and time in question we read: "0400 - 0800 Cloudy to fair; light breeze from WSW; at 0600 wind shifted to SW; steaming on course NE(1/4)E; executed morning orders; steam 125 lbs., revolutions 64.6. At 0610 three large bodies appeared in the sky traveling from NW(1/2)W. The largest one egg or pear shaped, with sharp point and ragged edge to full body aft. In size it appeared to be six times the size of the sun. The next one was round and about twice the size of the sun. The third one was round and about twice the size of the sun. They were in echeleon (sic) when first seen and were below the clouds and traveling fast and rising to directly overhead. They were dull red in color and were in sight about three minutes. The largest body would cover all of them. When first seen were like an airship." Supplemental information registered in the log at 0600 hours includes: "wind 9.8 knots, SE, force 2, barometer 30.38, air temperature 62, water temperature 58" and the all-important information on clouds that is only hinted at by Scofield: "stratus, moving from north, coverage 9." Stratus are horizontally layered cloud caused by atmospheric cooling over large horizontal areas. They are not very thick vertically and can exist from the surface (where they are essentially fog) up to a mile or more. "Coverage 9" indicates that the sky was about 90% covered by the cloud layer which was moving southward (coming from the north). Mr. Greenwood's hypothesis is that the supposed meteor (which subsequently broke up) entered the atmosphere hundreds of miles from the ship in the direction of the initial view (NW by 1/2 W or about 292 degrees azimuth). It's track took it directly toward the ship as it curved around the surface of the earth. Subsequently it began to glow and then split into three parts. Eventually it became visible to the Supply officers on deck while at a distance of perhaps 800 km or about 500 miles. For Greenwood's hypothesis hypothesis to work it would be necessary that there be NO cloud cover in the direction of the meteors when they were first seen and, furthermore, that there was no cloud cover in the direction of the meteors until the they got much closer to the ship at an angular elevation of about 45 degrees when they reportedly rose through the cloud layer. It would be at this time that clouds started to block the direct view. This means that there had to be a "slot" or opening in the 90% cloud cover from the horizon up to an angular elevation of at least 45 degrees, with the axis of this slot aligned with the azimuth of the "meteors." This is, of course, possible, but highly unlikely considering the layered nature of stratus clouds. Mr. Greenwood's hypothesis as described and illustrated by his drawings can be illustrated by imagining a straight line path of a meteor above the curved surface of the earth. Assume this meteor started to glow at an altitude of about 100 km (60 miles), then penetrated the atmosphere to a depth of about 50 km (30 miles) and then continued along a substantially straight path that took it away from the earth, probably becoming invisible as it reached once again about 100 km altitude. It would have reached 100 km just before it was over the ship so that it's highest observed angular elevation would have been about 75 degrees. (Note: the actual track of a meteor this close to the earth is a slight curve with radius much greater than the radius of the earth, 6328 km or about 4,000 miles. However, use of a curved-path in this illustration would seriously complicate the analysis and provide little further information. Of course, the "ultimate" curved path for a non-crashing object is parallel to the surface of the earth, i.e., an orbit with radius of curvature (6328 + H), where H is the minimum height of the object. No grazing meteor track would have a radius this small.) Further, his hypothesis would require that the first view of this meteor (or group) was at the time that it was about at it's lowest altitude. Assume, then, that it was 50 km high when first seen. By geometry one can show that if it was first seen at 50 km altitude while traveling along a straight path that would pass through 100 km altitude over the ship, then its distance would have been about 800 km or 500 miles away and it would have been right on the horizon. Initially the angular elevation would have increased slowly, but then the rate of increase of elevation would itself increase, being the most rapid as the meteors disappeared nealy over the ship (with looking almost straight up as the meteors traveled nearly a horizontal path over the ship), in contradiction to Mr. Greenwood's suggestion that the rate of increase of angular elevation would decrease as the meteors moved away from the earth. If the meteors were climbing out of the atmosphere, and hence cooling and hence glowing less as they approached the ship, they might fade to invisibility before passing over the ship but at no time would the angular elevation seem to stop increasing as long as the meteors were visible. In other words, there is no way that glowing meteors could appear to stop their approach to overhead, i.e., to stop the increase in angular elevation, and then fade out as if moving directly away from the ship at an elevation of 75 degrees. The observation that the angular elevation ceased to increase once it reached about 75 degrees seems to be completely incompatible with the meteor hypothesis. Mr. Greenwood has suggested that a sighting duration of "over two minutes" is unusual, but not an impossible meteor duration. Of course, we see now that the actual observer who wrote the entry into the ship's log placed the duration at about 3 minutes, so Scofield was being conservative. A good question to ask at this point would be, what is the longest duration that one might expect to see a meteor? I answered this question some 20 years ago at a time when the Coyne-helicopter case was being debated. Since Greenwood referred to the 1972 fireball meteor, let's use it as an example. It became visible when it was about 90 km high and at it's lowest it was about 60 km high. This was a "skipping meteor" which passed through the upper atmosphere of the earth, glowed, and then "bounced off" the atmosphere and continued its travels through the void of space (having suffered a severe deviation from its initial track). Now imagine as before a straight line cutting through a circle, where the circle represents that atmosphere at 90 km altitude (above the circular earth) and the straight line is a good approximation to the path of a meteor. The closest distance of the straight line to the surface is 60 km. One can show using geometry that the **straight line path** from 90 km above the surface down to 60 km and back up to 90 km (5 degrees elevation) is a distance of about 1250 km. The 1972 fireball traveled at roughly 14.5 km/sec on average. If we use this as an estimated speed for the Supply "fireballs" than, if someone had watched it from the beginning to the end of its glow, he would have seen it for about 1250/14.5 = 86 seconds (an observer exactly under the center of the glowing path would see this travling from horizon to horizon in 86 seconds). (Note: the 1972 meteor approached the earth from behind at about 10 km/sec, but then accelerated as it got closer and was traveling at about 14.5 km/sec relative to the surface of the earth at its closest approach.) Of course, the meteor did not travel in a straight line, but rather curved over the earth and hence traveled a slightly longer path in the atmosphere than calculated here. A space satellite that observed the meteor in infra-red light estimated the glow path was about 1500 km and the duration of visibility to the satellite was a bit over 100 seconds. (This satellite was able to detect the infra-red glow before the meteor made the atmosphere hot enough to be visible to the eye, and then the satellite was able to "see" the meteor longer then the naked eye.) This is the value quoted by Greenwood as if a ground observer could have seen it for that duration, but, of course, no ground observer could see it that long. Actually the ground observed durations ranged up to 1 minute with most of the observations being 40 seconds or less. The famous film of this fireball lasts "only" 26 seconds. One concludes from this analysis that it is virtually impossible to see a meteor **from horizon to horizon** that lasts as long as 100 seconds. The USS Supply officers sighted the meteors, not from horizon to horizon, but at most about halfway, from the horizon to overhead. This would take half as long, say 50 seconds or less. Hence the claimed duration of "over 2 minutes" and perhaps as much as 3 minutes lies far outside the normal meteor duration of visibility. These were truly remarkable, i.e., remarkably slow, meteors. (Note that **orbiting** bodies in low earth orbit could have observation durations this long, but they would not escape the orbit, so they would not appear to soar. Furthermore, to maintain a glow, such an orbiting body would have to travel at a high altitude, far above the clouds to avoid frictional energy loss that would slow it further and cool it below glowing speed.) The "bottom line" on the meteor hypothesis is that it is strained, at the very least, by the observation that they appeared to travel beneath the clouds (considering the 90% cloud cover), strained even further by the observation that the angular motion ceased and they appeared to travel directly away from the ship, and finally it is rejected by the reported duration of over 2 minutes.
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 28 South Africa Sighting - Video Evaluation From: Barry Taylor <stingray@nor.com.au> Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 11:56:03 +1100 (EST) Fwd Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 00:45:26 -0500 Subject: South Africa Sighting - Video Evaluation Evaluation Center for UFO Reports P.O.BOX 7784 Newton Park Port Elizabeth 6055 South Africa cellphone: 0826592428 E-mail: ecufor@mweb.co.za ----------------------------------------------------------------- NEWS RELEASE ============ DATE : 27-02-1998 FROM : EVALUATION CENTER FOR UFO REPORTS (ECUFOR) TO : ALL INTERESTED PARTIES SUBJECT : GRAAFF-REINET SIGHTING - VIDEO FOOTAGE CASE REFERENCE : 01JLGR27128 PLEASE NOTE : THIS NEWS RELEASE MAY ONLY BE QUOTED FROM IF PROPER REFERENCE IS MADE AS TO IT'S SOURCE, IE: ECUFOR, AND THAT THE CONTENTS OF SUCH QUOTES IS BOTH ACCURATE AND IN CONTEXT. ECUFOR has completed its preliminary investigation during this past week of the Graaff-Reinet sighting during which video footage was made of alledged UFOs. Testimonies of primary witnesses have been obtained. No additional witnesses have come forward during the past week. Basic details of the sighting are as follows : On the 27th December 1998 at about 3pm, the Laubscher family observed between 8 to 10 objects moving rapidly in a Northernly direction over Graaf-Reinet, a small town situated in the well known Karroo and some 260km NNW of Port Elizabeth. Mr Laubscher managed to capture on video a few minutes of this incident. According to the witness desciptions and supported to a certain extent by the video footage, the objects appeared somewhat roundish triangular and seemed to move in a group. Occasionally one or two would stop and the others would circle around them and then they would go forward again. This motion repeated itself a few times. While moving the objects were shinny gold in colour but when stationary appeared to switch to red and then to blue. The size of these objects was judged to be roughly 4 to 5 times that of a boeing at the same altitude. The group had been in view for a few seconds when another much larger object travelling at very high speed in the same flight path proceeded in a northernly direction through and past the group. The larger object appeared gold in colour and was basically spherical, travelled at a constant speed and did not change colour. Its size was estimated to be roughly 8 times that of a boeing at the same altitude. The group of smaller objects then followed the larger sphere as they all disappeared behind some high cloud nearer the horizon. According to the video footage these clouds appear to be at an altitude of roughly 25000 to 30000 feet. There was no visible residue or jet stream and no noise. The video footage has been examined and upon frame by frame viewing does indicate the presense of at least three objects simultaniously. Some of the zooming is out of focus but there is substantial " good " footage and this will be further examined using sophisticated digitizing and colour enhancement technics both locally and overseas. Investigations into the case will continue and once the video analysis results are obtained, a further News Release will be issued. THIS NEWS RELEASE MAY ONLY BE QUOTED FROM IF PROPER REFERENCE IS MADE AS TO ITS SOURCE, IE: ECUFOR AND THAT THE CONTENTS OF SUCH QUOTES IS BOTH ACCURATE AND IN CONTEXT. Released by : ECUFOR REPRESENTATIVE RESEARCH CO-ORDINATORS T.FARLEY AND N.HERBIET E-mail : ecufor@mweb.co.za bye @Oo.? e-mail stingray@nor.com.au
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 28 Re: [MC] ATTENTION - Special Bulletin (2) From: Jeff Westover <frequentflier66@yahoo.com> Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 19:16:20 -0800 (PST) Fwd Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 00:52:07 -0500 Subject: Re: [MC] ATTENTION - Special Bulletin (2) >From: Geri & Alfred Webre <Ecotoday@aol.com> >Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 18:55:52 EST >To: updates@globalserve.net >Subject: [MC] ATTENTION - Special Bulletin (2) >The following was posted on Wes Thomas" MindControl discussion >list. We have no idea about its original provenance. >Geri & Alfred Webre >Vancouver BC >Subj: [MC] ATTENTION - Special Bulletin (2) >Date: 99-02-26 05:14:13 EST >From: gwilson_spur@lineone.net (Graham M. Wilson) >To: MINDCONTROL-L@mail.sonic.net (MC Mailing List) >Notes from an insider ('The Voice') >"The UFO/Military Abduction/Genetic/Mind Control/Censorship" >I am an ex-employee (security operative) from a black-budget top >secret underground R & D facility situated not far from London >(England). For the past 5 years I have contravened the Official >Secrets Act by publishing my documents detailing the base, the >projects, personnel involved, locations, code names, etc., but >due to pressure brought to bear on me not only by the NSA and >MI5, but from 'friendly fire', the so called 'UFO Elite', my >disclosures, my documents have been brought to a standstill and >I have been effectively silenced. Well...you did get this posted on UFO UpDates...that has to count for something. >As mentioned above I was a security operative at the facility, I >am also a victim of the main project at the base run by the NSA, >mind control, genetic experimentation and military UFO >abductions. I have endured endless threats, intimidation and >harassment from various military and intelligence agencies over >time. >The loss of the equipment I used to publish my documents, >coupled with very severe financial problems and then the sudden >death of my father, on top of the pressures from agencies and >engineered apathy by the UFO community have resulted in my not >being in a position to get the vital info and data into the >public domain. You could post them here, on UFO Updates...FOR FREE! >As a last resort in my attempts to get some real help and >assistance was by way of a letter published in the 'Truth >Campaign' magazine (Ivan Fraser, UK) this detailed my plight and >requested help, to date no such help of any kind has been >forthcoming. >I now ask those UFO/conspiracy researchers whom are not >controlled by the UFO media and 'UFO Elite' to assist me in >continuing with my disclosures. Without practical help my >documents are no more, I need help with funds, donations, >equipment to actually produce the files, anything and >everything, great or small. If you can help and do your to >knock the controlling 'UFO Elite' off their manipulative >perches, please get in touch, now. Failing any help I have to >pronounce 'The Voice' dead. Er...ah...again, you could post your information on UFO UpDates for free and we could donate our cash to charities that help the homeless, the environment, victims of abuse and human rights violations, cancer and AIDS programs, etc. Please, if you have any information that can further ufology, post it on UFO UpDates. Jeffrey S. Westover
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 28 Re: Pending Lawsuit - Dilettoso vs. Korff From: Greg St. Pierre <StrmNut@aol.com> Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 22:28:13 EST Fwd Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 00:54:45 -0500 Subject: Re: Pending Lawsuit - Dilettoso vs. Korff >Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 11:45:41 +1000 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >From: Lawrie Williams <nemesis@fastinternet.net.au> >Subject: Re: Pending Lawsuit - Dilettoso vs. Korf <snip> >And by demanding removal of stuff, people are left wondering: >"What has HE got to hide???" >By simply ensuring addition of balancing information, he who is >in the right can be seen to be in the right. >If information flows freely, we all soon can sort out who the >big mouthed pratts are. We don't need lawyers to do that. That >is what we are losing every time there is one of these actions. >Lawrie Williams Hi Lawrie, May I say that if my livelyhood was potentially threatened by a bunch of libelous information posted on the web or any place else, you can bet your hindquarters that I'd be using every tool at my disposal to erradicate any examples of said information, and web-freedom-be-damned!
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 28 Re: Trumbull County on Art Bell From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net> Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 19:42:55 -0800 Fwd Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 00:57:04 -0500 Subject: Re: Trumbull County on Art Bell >Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 16:52:40 -0500 >From: Kenny Young <ufo@fuse.net> >To: updates@globalserve.net >Subject: Trumbull County on Art Bell >Trumbull County on Art Bell >To hear the dramatic 9-1-1 recordings for the '94 Trumbull County >Disturbance, tune in to the ART BELL radio program tonight (Friday >night/Saturday morning) Feb. 26 & 27 around 1:00 a.m. E.D.T. >The 9-1-1 recordings will also be posted in their entirety (without >comment or interruption) on the internet in the days ahead. >Kenny Young >-- >UFO Research >http://home.fuse.net/ufo/ Dear Ken: I heard the entire lot. There are many many good people out there, truly good people, who have no use for truth or objectivity whatsover. If you jammed facts down their innocent throats they would puke them right up all over the carpet. I like and love a lot of these folks. Please let them doze, they do you no harm.. Best wishes - Larry Hatch. PS: Your clock is off by at least 1 or two minutes, you fool! PPS: You fool! you fool!!! = = = = = =
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 28 Re: Phil Klass and The Trent Photos From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com> Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 23:43:27 -0500 Fwd Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 01:03:51 -0500 Subject: Re: Phil Klass and The Trent Photos >From: Keith Woodard <qwoodard@worldnet.att.net> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: Re: Phil Klass and The Trent Photos >Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 17:26:57 -0800 >>Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 11:19:13 -0800 >>From: Royce J. Myers III <rjm3@sprintmail.com> >>>Subject: Phil Klass and The Trent Photos <snip> >>I interveiwed both Paul Trent and his wife in >>1994 at their home in McMinville, Oregon. >>They were adamant that they believed they >>photographed a secret military aircraft at the >>time, _not_ a UFO (i.e.: aliens, et al). > >>They don't even believe in aliens! <snip> >In THE UFO VERDICT, Robert Sheaffer claims, "Mrs. Trent told the >Portland Oregonian [apparently June 10, 1950 - KW] that she had >spotted UFOs along the coast on three different occasions, but >until the photos were taken 'no one would believe me.' In a >1967 follow-up interview in the same newspaper, Mrs. Trent >stated, 'We've seen quite a few since then [1950 - RS], but we >didn't get any pictures, they disappeared too fast.' "> If this is true, it would appear that the Trents were "repeaters," no? It is my feeling that this is one of several Klassic Garbage arguments. If the Trent's thought UFOs were military vehicles, then why not see more than one? The complaint about "repeaters" is based on the assumption that UFOs are so rare (or don't exist at all!) that a person is unlikely to see even one. What Klass and others have ignored is the fact that the previous sightings were never reported to anyone and, moreover, may not have been True UFOs (alien craft) but rather simple misidentifications. Any person might misidentify objects in the sky many times. The only way "repeater" would have an impact would be if, as Klass suggests, the Trent's hoaxed a photo to provide "proof" that UFOs were real to validate the earlier sightings. Supposing that they did hoax the one sighting (two photos) for whatever reason. Then, if they claim to have seen UFOs again, why not create more hoax photos? After all the first photos brought them nationwide notoriety but no money. Perhaps the next set might bring them fortune as well as fame.... The fact that they had _only_one_ photo sighting is significant when compared with the skeptical claims that they created this sighting in order to validate previous sightings and in order to "get rich". Fact is, the Trents were "too lazy" as some have put it and sufficiently mentally challenged to be able to even contemplate such a thing. >>The NBC special has shown beyond a doubt >>that the photos are authentic. >That's a lot to expect of a program like "Confirmation." True. >Their heavy ammunition on this was delivered by Rand Molnar of >the Brooks Institute of Photography: "There's no sign, no hint >of anything suspending the object, a thread, a wire. I just >don't see any threads or any wires there." >Here, I think NBC missed an opportunity to nail the point down. >On his post-"Confimation" show the night of the broadcast, Art >Bell interpreted Molnar's remark as most viewers probably did: >"They took that one down very well," Art concluded. "Had there >been a wire, it would have been seen. Simple as that."> >But that's not what Molnar said. He just said he couldn't see >one. Moreover, threads can be pretty thin. It seems possible to >my layman's mind that a thread might not have left any trace at >all in the photograph. It seems to me it would have been nice >to hear Molnar's opinion on whether a thread would necessarily >be visible, but NBC apparently thought differently.> True: if the Trents had been clever or merely lucky they could have picked a thread color that matches the sky background, in which case there would be "no possibility" of a thread image detectible within the photographic noise. >However, Molnar also made this point: "I think if it were an >item very close to the camera, it would have a much darker >underneath in that one photograph." >In THE UFO VERDICT, Robert Sheaffer writes: >"Maccabee points out that there is one simple alternative >explanation: the model UFO was made of translucent plastic, and >hence light from the sky could pass through the object and cause >it to appear brighter than a shaded, opaque object could >possibly be. Amusing that Arch-skeptic Sheaffer used MY suggested explanation for the extra bright bottom. This is after I had shown his suggested explanation (dirt/grease on the lens causing veiling glare) was not sufficient. Of course, my suggestion would require a bit more effort on the part of th Trents to make the UFO model, as opposed to simply hanging a small pie pan from a thread. >> The Dutch science writer and UFO skeptic Hans Van >>Kampen has suggested that sunlight reflecting off the metal oil >>tank might account for the brightness of the object's underside. No, if a model hanging under th wire then the model was too close to the ground and the tank was too far away for any reflection to illuminate the tilted bottom >>Another prosaic and entirely plausible explanation is that the >>Trents had a flashbulb mounted on thkeir camera when the picture >>was taken. Portrait photographers often use a 'fill-in flash' >>whatever reason, had an ordinary flashbulb attached to their . >>camera, it would cause the bottom of the object to appear far >>brighter than expected. (A flashbulb would also explain the >>washed-out appearance of the object in the other photo.)>> I suggest this is a crock. Don't know that the Trents even had a flash. But again, this would require extra mental effort on the part of people' who wouldn't even think of a hoax, to say nothing of a slightly complex hoax. >Molnar also said, "There'd probably be more evidence of some >sort of texture, surface detail." >"Probably?" That would seem to imply that, under certain >conditions, we might not see such texture on a close object. Cuts no ice. >Since Molnar wasn't given an opportunity to nail any of these >points down, I wonder if Bruce Maccabee would be kind enough to >offer his opinion. Molnar had read my extensive reports on the McMinnville case and in th interview (part that ended up on the cutting room floor.. I guess they wanted no reference to me in their documentary) that he agreed with what I had found (no string, bottom brighter than it ought to be). Look, the bottom lie is this: the pictures could have been faked. It would have taken some planning or "luck" to get a model with the bottom brighter than it ought to be (the assumption in all my calculations was a WHITE bottom, which is as bright as possible withou being a source of light itself.) HOwever, the Trents were not people who even think of hoaxing anything. EVERYONE who talked to them was convinced they were "mentally challenged." NO ONE who talked to them (that I am aware of) gained the impression that they were clever, devious people capable of carrying off a stunt like this for over 50 years....or even for 1 year. In all the hours of conversation I had with Mrs. Trent in the middle 1970's she never mentioned aliens or flying saucers. Strange, if she was attempting a major flying saucer hoax. The NBC special missed an opportunity to air the only videotaped extensive interview of the Trents, which was done by Terry Halstead in 1995 (?). This interview provides ample information on a personal level that shows the Trents were not the type of
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 28 Re: Who Is/Was Gen. W.B. Smith? From: James Bond Johnson <JBONJO@aol.com> Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 23:37:49 EST Fwd Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 01:08:56 -0500 Subject: Re: Who Is/Was Gen. W.B. Smith? >Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 02:12:46 -0500 >From: Lesley Cluff <manitou@fox.nstn.ca> >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >Subject: Who Is/Was Gen. W.B. Smith? Lesley, Here is a bit of info re General Walter Bedell Smith... http://metalab.unc.edu/pub/academic/history/marshall/military/mil_hist_inst/s/Sm
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 28 Filer's Files #8-1999 From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 03:11:50 -0500 Fwd Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 03:11:50 -0500 Subject: Filer's Files #8-1999 Filer's Files #8-1999 MUFON Skywatch Investigations George A. Filer: MUFON Eastern Director, February 25, 1999, 1998 Majorstar@aol.com (609) 654-0020 THERE IS A SHARP INCREASE IN SIGHTINGS WORLDWIDE IN 1999. Sightings of UFOs were sharply down between December 20, 1998, and January 6, 1999. Although some fire balls and lights were observed, structured UFOs were last seen heading south along the Australia coast presumed to be headed for Antarctica in late December. It's now summer in the Southern Hemisphere. During January, the sightings seemed to pick up in Australia and spread north. Numerous sightings have been reported in February. CONNECTICUT NEW HAVEN -- Ryan John Devlin reports that on February 13, 1999, at 9:34 PM I was with my family at a park called West Rock. I was walking and looking up at the stars and saw lights in the sky that looked weird. The park is on a little mountain. I told everybody to lookup and we saw some very strange lights, that made some strange patterns in the sky. 203-932-3528, 100 Tuthill St. West Haven CT. Thanks to ISUR and John Thompson. NEW YORK SHERBURNE -- Two witnesses, a teenage boy and his mother, witnessed an unusual object on January 23, 1999, at 8:00 PM. A short distance from our house, my mother and I witnessed an oval/diamond shaped object surrounded by a misty pink light that 'flashed.' It was hovering about 40 feet above Knapp Road. We watched it continue in that direction until it disappeared. My grandparents who live next door told us that they heard a sound as if someone was blowing into a bottle. Our family has also witnessed two other sightings during October in the past two years. Both sightings were three yellow, oval/diamond shaped objects in the eastern sky around 9:30 PM. The high speed objects moved separately and sporadically for three hours. Thanks to: lclark@ibm.net "Larry Clark, http://www.nymufon.org NEW JERSEY RUNNEMEDE =96 MUFON field investigator Evelyn Gaulson reports that on February 15, 1999, at about 8:45 PM, Mary Ann spotted a strange object in the sky. Mary Ann noticed a large object about 60 feet above the ground. It had iridescent lighting like a prism would display. She could see pink, mauve and yellow and other colors in the light. It was a long tube that would move sideways and then forward. The tube would hover for a while and then more sideways again making a very high-pitched hum. Her daughter came outside and Mary Ann asked her what she saw? The daughter said it looked like a long cigar. They watched for 5 minutes before it flew off sideways and suddenly disappeared. After the tube left they noticed a funny odor that smelled very sweet almost like vanilla. Thanks to Evelyn Galson. VIRGINIA PRINCE GEORGE COUNTY -- Rick Atristain, MUFON State Director reports that five UFOs were sighted on February 10, 1999, at around 7:15 PM. The witnesses stated: "My two teenage children and myself were driving on a two-lane back road that goes past the Federal Reformatory." Approximately 20 feet above the tree line, we sighted a lighted object hovering above the trees. It was encircled in white pulsing, rotating lights, with a single larger light on the bottom. Suddenly, four other smaller lighted objects lined up in a line beside the larger one. As we turned a curve and our car beams shone in that direction, the smaller objects suddenly disappeared one by one. Then the larger object moved about 1/2 mile distance in about three seconds. First, it was above the trees, then momentarily it was on the other side of the reformatory. We watched for four minutes. They made no noise. The areas that surround the prison are flat lands (Ft. Lee Military Base). On one side is the Appomattox River and on the other is Route 295. We often observe military planes, including experimental aircraft. However these did not look similar. Thanks to Rick Atristain. GEORGIA This month, Venus and Jupiter have been approaching one another in the sky and will seem to almost merge on 23 February. Being low on the horizon, and depending on the weather, a lens like effect can take place, making them seem to do all sorts of tricks. ACKWORTH -- On February 22, 1999, at about 8:00 PM witnesses saw two lights on the western horizon, one over the other, but separated. He indicated that they changed colors from green to yellow to white, and would alternate in going from the size of a pearl held at arm's length to the size of a quarter. They also changed in magnitude. He watched for about 10 minutes and said they appeared to be hovering, but he noticed the lights of about 5 aircraft flying nearby. Investigators this may be a classic case of celestial objects being mistaken for a UFO. It may be that the approaching cloud front containing ice crystals and possibly temperature inversions could have influenced the appearance of these celestial bodies. I say this MAY be the planets, but the case needs further investigation. Thanks to Tom Sheets. FLORIDA MIAMI =96 State Section Director Mary Margaret Zimmer reports that the witness Dr. H. noticed a round platinum-like object flying at 7:30 PM on February 3, 1999. The UFO was flying just above the houses at approximately 30 mph. It had a dome with a bright flashing light on top. A rim extended from the body and above the rim. There were smaller lights and the object was flat on the bottom. It flew with the front part tilted slightly higher that the back. The closest the object came to the witness was about 200 feet based on the width of the road. She felt the height of the abject was 90 feet or less based on the height of the tower at the Falls Shopping center, and the height of a red balloon tethered to an apartment complex. Dr. H. followed the object heading north in her car for about ten minutes. Although, her window was down she could hear no sound. The object appeared larger than a car. Upon returning home she summoned her son. From their upstairs window they saw a bright light moving slowly toward the north. Margaret Zimmer made an excellent drawing of the craft. It appears to be similar to the type photographed over Gulf Breeze, Florida. Dr. H felt awe and elation at seeing the craft. She contacted the FAA, police, Channel 10 and 23 in Miami. The FAA suggested she call the National UFO Reporting Center and Good Year Blimp in Pompano. No blimps were flying that night. Thanks to Peter Davenport's National UFO Reporting Center for his notification and to Margaret Zimmer. Editors Note: The witnesses seem of high quality and took responsible action to find an explanation for their sighting. OHIO A letter from Anna who believes she was abducted aboard a UFO. The outside of the craft had a spring to it like rubber and the door was a foot square and appeared black. No matter how big you were you were able to get through the door and floated to the bottom. There was a cylinder or tank about a foot by 10 feet filled with something that looked like clouds. There were two tall objects beside them that looked like a workshop grinder on the top. When moving the craft seemed to be held up on its outer circumference. Also there was no air currents such as bumps from gusts of wind. The upper part or the dome was covered in colored {red, blue, etc.} chips. Below at one section were molded seats that one's knee would not fit into. In the center was a chair shaped like a question mark. The one arm rest had control panels that looked like pastel colored push pins, but were flat. When the panel was touched the colored dome emitted something and then the dome lost its color and turned to white and gray. The chips looked like crystals. Electricity was produced. In the outer circumference of the craft there were seats with small pads. I heard metal like a hatch opening and then the craft became unbearably cold. Thanks to Donna Trumbull Co. Ohio. MUFON WESTERN KENTUCKY UNIVERSITY CONFERENCE On April 24, Bowling Green, Kentucky MUFON presents the Giants in UFOLOGY: Speakers are John Carpenter on abduction research, Stanton Friedman on Roswell, Ted Phillips on physical trace cases, and Dr. Roger Scott the Director of the Hardin Planetarium and Professor of Physics and Astronomy at Western Kentucky University. For more information contact Kentucky MUFON at ufoarch@gte.net or 502 769-6458 Thanks to Scott Voight . COLORADO AND NEW MEXICO SAN LUIS VALLEY -- UFO activity has increased dramatically. - On Jan 26, 1999 at 8:15 to 8:32 PM, seven witnesses" saw a large UFO near La Veta. Two witnesses claim they were less than a 1/4 mile from the "600 foot" craft that was "hovering" over small lake located on a golf course. The first witness, a woman, had walked outside as she and her husband were closing up shop and were startled to see what she initially thought was "a 747 landing." Immediately she realized it was not moving. The unconventional-looking craft appeared to have wings and bright lights in the front. It was described as translucent-looking and was accompanied by a low humming sound. Initially structure was not visible. Then, after summoning her husband, they both observed "orange-colored portholes" appear on the side. They watched as the object shot a probe-like beam or tube downward toward the lake. TAOS COUNTY -- On January 22, 1999, at 10:45 PM motorists traveling north on NM 522 in separate cars, 9 miles south of the Colorado and New Mexico border, had separate unusual experiences. Brad Sleep, a UNM college student was following his girlfriend, Sarah Fisher when he witnessed what appeared to be a large meteor descending straight down toward the ground. The object was white colored and had a short tail. After descending quickly for a couple of seconds, the object abruptly stopped, changed color to a reddish white and hovered for almost a minute at about 37,000 feet. Sleep pulled over to the side of the highway. Sarah, who did not observe the UFO continued on. He climbed out of his pickup truck as the object began a series of 14 lateral figure-eight's that took about 3 seconds to complete. Then the object headed to the SE toward Taos. The craft had a roar similar to a jet plane but had a reverberating hum that was different. Sarah, proceeded "about a mile" up the road from where Brad stopped, when she saw a strange car that was all lit up on the sides by light that wasn't supposed to be there." When the lit-up car passed several small objects rained down on the driver side of her windshield. SAN ANTONIO MOUNTAIN =96 On February 4, 1999, the KRZA transmitter goes down for five days. At 9:45 PM in Saguache County two witnesses driving south on Highway 17 saw a brilliant orb of white light hovering around 200 feet above the ground. During the 40 second sighting a retired career Air Force officer noted the object shot a beam of light at the ground. SAN LUIS VALLEY -- On February 9, 1999, Chris and another witness observed a fast moving unblinking dull-orange orb travel southeast at 9:55 PM. The object was below 5,000 feet in altitude and was 3 times the size of Venus. It covered a 100 miles in 3 minutes. SAGUACHE COUNTY -- February 13, 1999, at 3:05 PM two witnesses observed an erratically moving silver reflection three times--each time for several seconds. The object seemed to be below 2,000 feet and made sharp twisting turns. It looked like "a fishing lure in the sky." The second witness was able to focus a pair of binoculars on the object and described it as being "kind of rectangular-looking, but with no wings." Twelve minutes later, four fighters buzzed this area headed north. WESTCLIFFE --On February 21, 1999, a pilot and another witness report two jet fighters flying east at 50,000 feet in altitude at 10:15 AM. Pacing the second jet was an object that seemed about 10,000 feet below the jets. This object was rounded and was reflecting a goldish color. The jets left contrails the third object did not. The pilot was puzzled by how fast all three craft were traveling. "They were definitely flying faster than the speed of sound." Thanks to Christopher O'Brien tmv@pop.amigo.net Christopher reports his new book Enter The Valley (St. Martin's Paperbacks ISBN 0-312- 96835-3 has been published. JULESBURG -- On February 13, 1999, Scott Luft reported he had a UFO sighting at 4:15 AM. I am a security guard for a local hog farm operation in N.E. Colorado. I was coming up a county road going north to check one of our barns. I was about eight miles southeast of Julesburg. There are allot of tower beacons flashing in our area, but this did not flash. I noticed a very bright star in the North sky among a large amount of stars visible. When I saw the light I did not remember seeing a star there 20 seconds ago. I stopped and got out my binoculars. As I watched the object the light started to glow brighter and brighter. Then the object proceeded to "take off" going north. It made a dip towards the ground and then made an upward arch and was gone at tremendous speed. --Thanks to Jerry Clark and Scott Luft http://www.nymufon.org 970-474-2107 12 West 4th Street Julesburg 80737 scottl@henge.com - CALIFORNIA MOJAVE -- Peter Davenport reported numerous sightings on February 22, 1999, on the Art Bell radio show. Witnesses reported citing a glowing green fireball going southwest at 8:30 PM. As the object slowed the color changed and a triangular shaped craft was observed. Editors Note: We have reports that a new X-60 triangle shaped craft that has VTOL capabilities may be flying in this area. The craft is the size of 737 commercial aircraft and still in its test phase. The craft may be hypersonic reaching speeds above mach 5. ASTEROIDS GETTING TOO CLOSE FOR COMFORT WASHINGTON -- A dangerous asteroid whizzed by Earth on February 24, 1999. Similar near misses are expected March 2, 18, 26 and April 1. Astronomers are discovering potential killer asteroids at a record pace. The public's flirtation last year with fear of menacing space rocks -- fueled by two fictionalized movies and one widely reported threat -- has faded. But astronomers scanning the sky with new technology are finding more asteroids than ever. There are almost weekly additions to science's official list of potentially hazardous asteroids. In 1998, scientists found 55 of the would-be killers -- more than in the previous six years combined. Now the all-time list is at 163 and growing. None of these rocks is expected to hit Earth directly. But they are dangerously close. `This afternoon, a half-mile-wide asteroid discovered in January will whiz by Earth at a distance of 3.4 million miles. On Feb. 4, a 30-foot-wide rock came incredibly close to Earth. It was only 632,000 miles away. The biggest reason that astronomers are finding more of these near-miss asteroids is the redirection of Air Force technology from tracking killer satellites to spotting killer rocks. Massachusetts Institute of Technology's Lincoln Laboratory, a federally funded national security research center outside Boston, changed the asteroid tracking world last March when it began using Air Force technology to scan the sky with a telescope based in New Mexico. The lab's program, called LINEAR, has found 38 of the last 59 asteroids. `We have it down to a point where we're in a groove,'' LINEAR chief Grant Stokes said. But even as new threats are being found much more frequently than before, "We're way behind,'' said Don Yeomans, manager of NASA's Near Earth Object program. That's because last year, NASA set a goal of finding most potential asteroid threats within 10 years. Asteroids are considered a threat if they are bigger than half a mile wide and are going to come within five million miles of Earth. Astronomers guess there are 2,000 such asteroids out there, and so far they have found about 8 percent of them. "If you were going to find every object that's going to threaten the Earth, you're talking millions, not thousands,'' said researcher Jeff Larsen of the University of Arizona's Spacewatch tracking program. Thanks to Seth Borenstein Herald Washington Bureau 02/24/99 Mitch Battros http://www.earthchangestv.com ITALY Skywatch reports the editor of the monthly magazine of Italian UFO research states: The outburst of sightings, which occurred February 23, around 7:00 PM were noticed simultaneously in Bologna, Turin, San Giovanni Valdarno, Cuneo, Turin, Venice, Genoa, Ravenna, Novara, Pescara, Gualdo Tadino, Lucca and Rome. They came to a halt just before 9 PM. It has been a significant and long lasting phenomenon. Most of the eye witnesses saw two very bright lights in the sky, at varying altitudes and different in size, stationary or slowly passing by, at times coupled together and intermittently lit up. Others, described them as geometric formations totally different from planets hovering at low altitude. Switchboards of the police stations were jammed by thousands of alarmed phone calls, several astronomical observations explained the phenomenon as an unusual conjunction between Jupiter and Venus. Among the sightings reported to "Notiziario UFO," contradicting the planet explanations was Mr. Filippo Bigazzi's, from San Giovanni Valdarno, who video filmed two stationary lights that intermittently appeared and disappeared. Meanwhile at 7:20 PM in Ravenna, Mr. Stefano Matteucci, observed by telescope a three light formation on top a darker square shaped object. Another video was shot in Venice by Mr. Federico Provoleri who caught a bright moving object. Interestingly, military bases of Istrana and Tessera, Veneto, were kept on the alert. A UFO flap occurred in October '98 and started again in January and continues. Thanks to: Bill Hamilton Skywatch Director. MALAYSIA KUALA ROMPIN: reports that on February 16, 1999, at 10:30 PM there was a very large craft in the sky. (Its a very big aeroplant): Thanks to Haffiez at haffiez_81@usa.net AUSTRALIA BURLEY HEADS BEACH -- Shane Thorpe reports that at 10:30 PM there were two sightings of UFOs. First, a UFO came around twice, I thought I was day dreaming but I saw it again in the same spot. When it moved it was as if it moved in right angles as if it was dodging things and it moved very fast. Then it just hovered in mid air about 800 meters high. It was half red and half bluish white. This happened about 3 weeks ago. I've been looking every where to report it. 23 Villa St. Annerley, Queensland, Jon_aa@hotmail.com COMMENTS ON CONFIRMATION NBC TV SHOW JESSIE MARCEL JR. -- Numerous Trumbull County police appeared on the TV show claiming to witness a UFO. Dr. Marcel writes: "The fact that the gentleman who identified himself as an astronomer really had to jump through so many hoops to explain the event really stretches the imagination. To say that all the 911 calls from twinkling stars, a fireball and the stalling of the officers cruiser with its radios was just a coincidence has about as much credibility as "swamp gas". It would be interesting to keep a diary of all the convoluted explanations that the debunkers put forth to explain the unexplainable. Sometimes the simplest explanation is the most fantastic explanation. Thanks to Dr. Jess Marcell Jr. SAM SHERMAN comments on the STS 48 video taken from the Space Shuttle. I have had the privilege to see digital clones of NASA's master tapes to STS-48 images in a high tech video studio. Further, on the STS-48 Mission there were more similar events than the famous flash-right angle turn and lots more luminous anomalous objects flying around. Since I was looking at digital clones of the originals (showing no quality loss) I asked the technician to enlarge one of the larger objects to the limits of the system's resolution and the object took on a disk like shape with a dome protrusion on what might be the top of of the craft. During researching my docudrama film BEYOND THIS EARTH I have seen numerous similar NASA images that lead me to conclude that some of the information I have researched about ET craft over Planet Earth is true. Furthermore, during the course of this production we sent up a surveillance plane over Northern California, with the aid of space scientists and filmed similar anomalous luminous objects over the good old USA. I had sighted one of these myself in the1960s. Viewing it through binoculars, with 3 other witnesses, I must conclude that ET craft are visiting this world and that we have not been able to stop whatever they are doing, which DOD must conclude is a security threat until it is proven otherwise. In short, I have no trouble concluding that the ET Hypothesis is fully real, verifiable, far advanced beyond our technology and a true problem for our Space, Defense and Intelligence agencies. I just hope we don't cut the military, space and intelligence budgets before that time, we will probably need them. Thanks to Sam Sherman flexaret2@aol.com Crass commercials: GET THE BEST REALTORS, AND HELP UFO RESEARCH As a special aid to our readers, we can provide you with the best real estate experts in your area at no cost to you. Make sure you have a top notch agent, to buy or sell your home or real estate investments. We provide free relocation information and consulting services from the largest and most real estate firms. If you are planning to sell or buy a home and would like a top flight real estate agent give me a call at 609 654-0020 or e-mail me at Majorstar@aol.com. Please send your name, phone number, address, price range and location. MUFON JOURNAL For more detailed investigative reports subscribe by writing to 103 Oldtowne Road, Sequin, TX 78155-4099 or E-mail Mufon@aol.com. Filer's Files Copyright 1998 by George A. Filer, all rights reserved. Readers may post items from the Files on their Websites provided that they credit the newsletter and its editor by name and list the date of issue that the item appeared. Send your letters to me at Majorstar@aol.com. If you wish to keep your name confidential please so state. http://ufoinfo.com/filer/1999/ff_9908.html
UFO UpDates A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena 'Its All Here In Black & White' Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 > Feb > Feb 28 NY Times 'Confirmation' Review From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 03:55:41 -0500 Fwd Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 03:55:41 -0500 Subject: NY Times 'Confirmation' Review ----- NY Times: February 17, 1999, Wednesday TELEVISION REVIEW; Visitors From Outer Space Via Transylvania Station ----- Does anyone have the above review available in .txt format they can send me, please? ebk