UFO UpDates
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   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Aug

                          UFO UpDates Mailing List
                                  Aug 1999

  Aug 1:

   Re: Sheffield UFO Incident 2? - Marc Bell [33]
   Re: Nick Pope's Weird World - Rory Lushman [75]

  Aug 2:

   Re: IFOs - engima9 [128]
   Re: Nick Pope's Weird World - Georgina Bruni [31]
   Bang a Gong? - Mike Hallal [4]
   [anomilt] BAR 199907 - BufoCalvin@aol.com [142]
   Re: Sheffield UFO Incident 2? - Tony Spurrier [12]
   Re: Sheffield UFO Incident 2? - Tony Spurrier [57]
   Re: Sheffield UFO Incident 2? - Sue Addison [30]
   Obtaining The COMETA Rreport? - Keith Rowell [3]
   Nick Pope'S Weird World - Aug '99 - Georgina Bruni [152]

  Aug 3:

   CPR-Canada News: Update #3 on Hagersville - Paul Anderson - TMP /
   CPR-Canada [46]
   Re: Obtaining The COMETA Rreport? - Perry Petrakis - SOS OVNI [14]
   Re: Nick Pope's Weird World - Jenny Randles [132]
   Re: Nick Pope's Weird World - Rory Lushman [40]
   Nostra Damas Was _Not_ Wrong! - Jim Mortellaro [34]
   Re: IFOs - Bobbie Felder [53]
   Re: Arnold Saw Pelicans - Asgeir W. Skavhaug [217]
   Stephen Basset And Pressures For Congressional Ufo - Giuliano
   Marinkovicc [97]
   Re: Sheffield UFO Incident 2? - John Rimmer [71]
   Re: IFOs - John Rimmer [137]
   Re: Sheffield UFO Incident 2? - Josh Goldstein [21]
   Re: Bang a Gong? - Josh Goldstein [11]

  Aug 7:

   An Unexpected Hiatus - UFO UpDates - Toronto [13]
   Notes From The Borderland - Arthur Mix [20]
   Ghost And UFOs - We've Got 'Em All - Keith Basterfield Network [41]
   Sighting Report 27.07.1999 OZ File - Keith Basterfield Network [54]
   Sighting Report 07.07.1999 OZ File - Keith Basterfield Network [31]
   Re: Sheffield UFO Incident 2? - dave bowden [44]
   What's Wrong With British Ufology? - Martin Phillips [12]
   Re: Nick Pope's Weird World - Jenny Randles [21]
   Re: IFOs - Jerome Clark [148]
   Re: Arnold Saw Pelicans - Bruce Maccabee [211]
   Re: Obtaining The COMETA Rreport? - Gildas Bourdais [34]
   Summary of French COMETA Report - Gildas Bourdais [288]
   Would You Bet The Ranch? - Stephen G. Bassett [25]
   Re: Sheffield UFO Incident 2? - Tony Spurrier [15]
   Re: Arnold Saw Pelicans - Kathleen Anderson [58]
   Re: Robert Sarbacher Letter At Auction Now - William Steinman [12]
   Sighting Reports Via UFO Scotland Website And My - Dave Ledger [198]
   Richard Hall's final 'Reality Check' - Steven Kaeser [120]

  Aug 3:

   'UFOINFO' Surveillance Van!? - John Hayes [41]
   Technowars & ECHELON - "Cathy Johnson" [1367]

  Aug 7:

   Filer's Files #31 --1999 - George A. Filer [392]
   Summary of French COMETA Report - Gildas Bourdais [288]
   Conscious Life, Dr. Steven Greer & The Prophets - prophets@maui.net
   [133]
   Re: P-47: The Stupidity within Ufology - Max Burns [49]
   Alfred's Odd Ode #311 - Alfred Lehmberg [91]

  Aug 8:

   The TRUTH about what happened to Knapp... the rest - Jim Mortellaro
   [76]
   Re: Would You Bet The Ranch? - Alfred Lehmberg [31]
   Re: IFOs - John Rimmer [15]
   Re: Nick Pope's Weird World - Dave Bowden [33]
   Re: What's Wrong With British Ufology? - Dave Bowden [25]
   P-47: The Problem Of MUFON - Herb Taylor [24]
   P-47: Re: The Problem of MUFON - William E. Jones [45]
   P-47: Re: The Problem of MUFON - Tony Rullan [53]
   C-E: Hubble Moon Photos Found - Kutovoy, Anatoly [28]
   'Strange Days...Indeed' - Tonight: Wendy Connors - UFO UpDates -
   Toronto [24]

  Aug 9:

   Re: Arnold Saw Pelicans - Dave Bowden [18]
   Research Proposal - Hypnotic Suggestibility - Tim D. Brigham [145]
   CPR-Canada News: 'Basket Weaving 101' at Roundway - Paul Anderson - TMP
   / CPR-Canada [57]
   Re: The Stupidity Within Ufology - Dave Baker [50]
   Re: Sighting Reports Via UFO Scotland Website And - Tony Spurrier [33]
   Re: Arnold Saw Pelicans - Bruce Maccabee [41]
   New Free Internet UFO/Paranormal TV Station - Mark Hall [130]
   BWW Media Alert 19990808 - BufoCalvin@aol.com [188]
   Re: IFOs - John Rimmer [180]
   Re: C-E: Hubble Moon Photos Found - David Rudiak [47]
   Re: Arnold Saw Pelicans - GT McCoy [101]
   Re: Richard Hall's final 'Reality Check' - Bruce Maccabee [23]
   CPR-Canada News: Hagersville and Roundway A - Paul Anderson - TMP /
   CPR-Canada [60]
   Re: Sheffield UFO Incident 2? - Josh Goldstein [21]
   Sighting, Morton Bay, Queensland Australia - Diane Harrison [72]
   Re: Nick Pope's Weird World - Georgina Bruni [27]
   Re: Arnold Saw Pelicans - Jim Mortellaro [54]
   Re: What's Wrong With British Ufology? - Rory Lushman [64]
   Re: Mystery Bang in Scotland - David Clarke [23]

  Aug 10:

   THE MOTHMAN PROPHECIES at The Prophets Conference - prophets@maui.net
   [79]
   Re: IFOs - Jerome Clark [245]
   Re: C-E: Hubble Moon Photos Found - Bob Young [24]
   Re: Research Proposal - Hypnotic Suggestibility - Bobbie Felder [20]
   Re: P-47: Re: The Problem of MUFON - Kathleen Andersen [45]
   Re: Arnold Saw Pelicans - Dave Bowden [68]
   What's On Brisbane Qld Australia Aug 28 1999 - Keith Basterfield
   Network [48]
   Re: C-E: Hubble Moon Photos Found - Steven Kaeser [16]
   Re: C-E: Hubble Moon Photos Found - David Rudiak [18]
   Research Release: 'USAAF' UFO Research Pre-1947 - Wendy Connors [87]
   Re: C-E: Hubble Moon Photos Found - Brian Straight [29]

  Aug 11:

   Demand the truth and get it not... - Jim Mortellaro [67]
   Re: Research Proposal - Hypnotic Suggestibility - Joel Henry [43]
   Re: What's Wrong With British Ufology? - Martin Phillips [100]
   Re: C-E: Hubble Moon Photos Found - Serge Salvaille [23]
   Re: P-47: Re: The Problem of MUFON - Jim Bouck [33]
   Re: Arnold Saw Pelicans - David Rudiak [26]
   Re: C-E: Hubble Moon Photos Found - Dennis Stacy [13]
   Re: CPR-Canada News: 'Basket Weaving 101' at - Sue Strickland [35]
   NASA: Sharp Mars Images Reveal Active Red Planet - NASANews@hq.nasa.gov
   [99]
   UFO ROUNDUP Volume 4 Number 16 - Joseph Trainor - Masinaigan [196]
   Re: What's Wrong With British Ufology? - Rory Lushman [29]
   Re: Research Proposal - Hypnotic Suggestibility - Jenny Randles [73]
   Re: Pics - Dave Ledger [52]
   Re: Research Proposal - Hypnotic Suggestibility - Tim D. Brigham [20]
   Re: Hypnotic Suggestibility - Tim D. Brigham [46]
   UFOs Filmed Over English Channel - David Clarke [47]
   Re: Pics - Jenny Randles [45]
   Re: Robert Sarbacher Letter At Auction Now - Nick Balaskas [51]
   Re: Research Proposal - Hypnotic Suggestibility - Kevin Randle [53]
   Re: UFOs Filmed Over English Channel - Jenny Randles" [68]
   Re: Pics - Jerry Anderson [59]
   The Eclipse - "Martin Phillips" [11]
   Re: What's Wrong With British Ufology? - Martin Phillips [59]
   Re: UFOs Filmed Over English Channel - Jerry Anderson [65]
   1937 UFO Crash in Germany? - Keith Basterfield Network [38]

  Aug 12:

   'UFO Research List': An Open Letter to Nick Pope - James Easton [152]
   'Flying Pelicans on the Attack!' - James Easton [149]
   Black helicopters in Jane's Defence Weekly - Steven J. Dunn [14]
   Filer's Files #32 --1999 - George A. Filer [410]
   Re: C-E: Hubble Moon Photos Found - Bob Young [10]
   Re: Hubble Moon Photos Found - Bob Young [21]
   Re: Research Proposal - Hypnotic Suggestibility - Tim D. Brigham [98]
   Re: - Sue Strickland [9]

  Aug 13:

   Re: Research Proposal - Hypnotic Suggestibility - joel henry [32]
   Re: UFO Video Capture Pics (May '99) - Robert Moore [31]
   Re: 1937 UFO Crash in Germany? - Werner Walter [8]
   Re: 'Flying Pelicans on the Attack!' - Jerome Clark [50]
   Re: C-E: Hubble Moon Photos Found - Joachim Koch [44]
   Re: 'Flying Pelicans on the Attack!' - Nick Balaskas [67]
   And Still They Come..... - Jerry Anderson [48]
   Re: Research Proposal - Hypnotic Suggestibility - Jim Mortellaro [92]
   Re: Black helicopters in Jane's Defence Weekly - Josh Goldstein [25]
   Re: Research Proposal - Hypnotic Suggestibility - Steven Kaeser [30]
   Re: Research Proposal - Hypnotic Suggestibility - Jenny Randles [97]
   Re: Black helicopters in Jane's Defence Weekly - Terry Blanton [26]
   Re: UFO Video Capture Pics (May '99) - John Velez [48]
   Re: Research Proposal - Hypnotic Suggestibility - Kevin Randle [91]
   Re: Black Helicopters in Jane's Defence Weekly - Wendy Connors [62]
   Re: 'Flying Pelicans on the Attack!' - Donald Ledger [92]

  Aug 14:

   Re: Black helicopters in Jane's Defence Weekly - dave bowden [45]
   Re: Black helicopters in Jane's Defence Weekly - Donald Ledger [36]
   Re: And Still They Come..... - Rick Goldsmith [78]
   Re: Black helicopters in Jane's Defence Weekly - Gavin A. J. McLeod
   [36]
   Re: 1937 UFO Crash in Germany? - Thiago Ticchetti [12]
   Re: Black helicopters in Jane's Defence Weekly - GT McCoy [41]
   Alfred's Odd Ode #312 - Alfred Lehmberg [132]

  Aug 15:

   Re: 'Flying Pelicans on the Attack!' - Scott Reed [64]
   UFO*BC Updates - Aug 1999 - Dave Pengilly - UFO*BC [26]
   To Subscribers via demon.co.uk - Moderator UFO UpDates [16]
   'Strange Days...Indeed' - Tonight: Don Berliner 0f - UFO UpDates -
   Toronto [66]
   Re: 'Flying Pelicans on the Attack!' - Bruce Maccabee [382]
   Socorro: The Zamora 'Insignia' - Robert Moore [90]
   More on Seti@home - Sean Jones [265]
   Re: Black helicopters in Jane's Defence Weekly - Terry Blanton [44]
   Re: Research Release: 'USAAF' UFO Research Pre-1947 - Bruce Maccabee
   [21]
   Re: Black helicopters in Jane's Defence Weekly - Larry Hatch [65]

  Aug 16:

   Roswell Rods On NBC Show - Stig Agermose [14]
   'Ferris Wheel' UFO - Logan Village, Brisbane OZ - Diane Harrison -
   Keith Basterfield Network [40]
   Strange Lights Puzzle The Watchers - Dave Ledger [54]
   'Roswell' In Tennessee? - Stig Agermose [48]
   Sam Sherman's Site On Edwards AFB Pursuit - Stig Agermose [16]
   Re: 'Ferris Wheel' UFO - Logan Village, Brisbane OZ - Diane Harrison -
   Keith Basterfield Network [67]
   Re: Research Release: 'USAAF' UFO Research Release - Wendy Connors [63]
   BWW Media Alert 19990815 - BufoCalvin@aol.com [208]
   Re: Pics - John Rimmer [34]
   Failed Polygraph Yields Unexpected Benefit - Ryan S. Wood [226]
   Re: Socorro: The Zamora 'Insignia' - Michel M. Deschamps [59]
   Re: Socorro: The Zamora 'Insignia' - Martin Jeffrey [35]
   Re: Socorro: The Zamora 'Insignia' - Joel Henry [44]
   Re: Socorro: The Zamora 'Insignia' - Mark Cashman [141]

  Aug 17:

   Re: Failed Polygraph Yields Unexpected Benefit - Serge Salvaille [39]
   Re: Socorro: The Zamora 'Insignia' - Kevin Randle [32]
   Re: Socorro: The Zamora 'Insignia' - Andy Roberts [25]
   Re: Socorro: The Zamora 'Insignia' - Jerome Clark [44]
   Re: [CTRL] X-Files Version Of History Backed By - Don Allen [100]
   Re: Socorro: The Zamora 'Insignia' - Jerry Anderson [57]
   Re: Socorro: The Zamora 'Insignia' - Bruce Maccabee [26]
   Re: 'Unidentified Plane' Precedes Fighter - Bruce Maccabee [20]
   Re: Strange Lights Puzzle The Watchers - Bruce Maccabee [8]
   Re: Socorro: The Zamora 'Insignia' - Bruce Maccabee [23]
   Re: Socorro: The Zamora 'Insignia' - James Easton [97]
   Re: [CTRL] X-Files Version Of History Backed By - Bruce Maccabee [48]
   Re: Socorro: The Zamora 'Insignia' - Bruce Maccabee [28]
   Re: Socorro: The Zamora 'Insignia' - Jerome Clark [27]
   Re: Failed Polygraph Yields Unexpected Benefit - Jan Aldrich [7]
   Re: Socorro: The Zamora 'Insignia' - Mark Cashman [85]
   Daylight Disk Reported in Eastern Pennsylvania - Stan Gordon [38]
   Re: Socorro: The Zamora 'Insignia' - GT McCoy [43]
   Y2K And Your VCR - Donald Ledger [12]

  Aug 18:

   Re: Socorro: The Zamora 'Insignia' - Donald Ledger [32]
   'New?' FBI memo about Roswell - Henny van der Pluijm [10]
   Re: Socorro: The Zamora 'Insignia' - Brian Cuthbertson [39]
   Re: Black helicopters in Jane's Defence Weekly - Leanne Martin [27]
   Noble Lawmen Find NASA Official In Cave - Stephen MILES Lewis [52]
   Re: Socorro: The Zamora 'Insignia' - Perry Mick [15]
   Socorro Metal - Jerry Anderson [40]
   Re: 'New?' FBI memo about Roswell - Stan Friedman [36]
   Re: Socorro: The Zamora 'Insignia' - Andy Roberts [59]

  Aug 20:

   Scotish Sighting Reports - Dave Ledger [327]
   Re: Socorro: The Zamora 'Insignia' - Donald Ledger [79]
   Mysterious Light Flummoxes Astronomers - Stig Agermose [35]
   Another Daylight UFO Sighting In Pennsylvania - Stan Gordon [29]
   SETI@home Screensaver Project Breaks Record - Stig Agermose [58]
   UFOcity.com Report 8/99 - Peter Robbins [459]
   Re: Y2K And Your VCR - Gavin A. J. McLeod [21]
   Re: Socorro: The Zamora 'Insignia' - Jim Mortellaro [55]
   Re: Socorro: The Zamora 'Insignia' - Bruce Maccabee [95]
   Re: 'New?' FBI memo about Roswell - Bruce Maccabee [20]
   Ohio shimmering lights not UFO - A.P. - Kenny Young [21]
   Re: 'New?' FBI memo about Roswell - Steven W. Kaeser [46]

  Aug 21:

   UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 4, Number 17 - Joseph Trainor [251]
   Re: Socorro: The Zamora 'Insignia' - Jerome Clark [104]
   NASA Selects Miniature Spacecraft To Test Space - NASANews@hq.nasa.gov
   [86]
   Re: Socorro: The Zamora 'Insignia' - Serge Salvaille [34]
   Re: Socorro: The Zamora 'Insignia' - Martin Phillips [31]
   Re: 'New?' FBI memo about Roswell - Michel M. Deschamps [24]
   Re: Socorro: The Zamora 'Insignia' - David Rudiak DRudiak@aol.com [198]
   Recent Sighting Submissions Outside Scotland - Dave Ledger [246]
   Abductions: A Funny Thing Happened... - Dennis Stacy [38]
   Alfred's Odd Ode #313 - Alfred Lehmberg [85]
   Germany - The Greifswald-Lights - Werner Walter [7]
   Re: Socorro: The Zamora 'Insignia' - GT McCoy [82]
   Socorro: The Zamora 'Insignia' - Larry Hatch [61]
   Re: Socorro: The Zamora 'Insignia' - Jim Mortellaro [49]
   UFO Ridicule - John Rimmer [43]
   Re: UFO Report Reveals Rifts At CIA - John Rimmer [16]
   Re: Abductions: A Funny Thing Happened... - John Velez [66]
   CIA Said To Rue Its Longterm UFO Cover-Up - UFO UpDates <

  Aug 22:

   'Doorway Amnesia' & Modern Day Abductees? - Roy Hale [14]
   Re: - Dennis Stacy [19]
   'Strange Days...Indeed' - Tonight: Don Berliner 0f - UFO UpDates -
   Toronto [22]
   'Strange Days...Indeed' - Tonight: Jan Aldrich - UFO UpDates - Toronto
   [22]
   Re: Abductions: A Funny Thing Happened... - Dennis Stacy [18]
   'Strange Days...Indeed' - Tonight: Jan Aldrich - UFO UpDates - Toronto
   [22]

  Aug 23:

   FYI - UFO UpDates - Toronto [7]
   Re: UFO Ridicule - Michel M. Deschamps [73]
   CPR-Canada News: Circle Reported Near Dease Lake, - Paul Anderson - TMP
   / CPR-Canada [52]
   Re: Abductions: A Funny Thing Happened... - Jim Mortellaro [68]
   Re: 'New?' FBI memo about Roswell - Neil Morris [70]
   UFO Over Cubatao, Sao Paulo - Thiago Ticchetti [32]
   BWW Media Alert 19990822 - Bufo Calvin [218]
   Filer's Files #33 - George A. Filer [382]
   Films of UFOs and Sasquatch - Royce J. Myers III [13]
   Lawyer To Sue For Release Of Real X Files - Mark Hall [69]

  Aug 24:

   Re: 'Doorway Amnesia' & Modern Day Abductees? - Amy Hebert [32]
   Re: Abductions: A Funny Thing Happened... - Joseph Polanik [46]
   Wilhelm Reich's Contact With Space - Stig Agermose [166]
   Re: Socorro: The Zamora 'Insignia' - Bruce Maccabee [28]
   Re: Socorro: The Zamora 'Insignia' - Bruce Maccabee [53]
   Re: Alfred's Odd Ode #313 - Michael Christol [31]
   Re: Abductions: A Funny Thing Happened... - John Velez [28]
   NACOMM Sighting Report - Kenny Young [76]
   Re: 'Doorway Amnesia' & Modern Day Abductees? - Jenny Randles [76]
   High Flying Sagan - UFO UpDates - Toronto [123]
   Re: UFO Ridicule - bruce maccabee [54]
   Re: UFO Ridicule - Jerome Clark [85]
   WSJ Article on Bigelow - Brian Straight [4]
   Re: Kenneth Arnold's 'Flying Discs' - Asgeir W. Skavhaug [59]
   Re: UFO Video Capture Pics (May '99) - Sean Jones [32]
   Project ALP - John Hayes [39]
   Re: 'New?' FBI memo about Roswell - Kevin Randle [65]
   Re: Abductions: A Funny Thing Happened... - Dennis Stacy [17]
   Re: Films of UFOs and Sasquatch - John Velez [22]
   Re: 'Doorway Amnesia' & Modern Day Abductees? - John Velez [53]
   Re: Films of UFOs and Sasquatch - George Barkouris [21]
   CPR-Canada News: New Formation - Edmonton, Alberta - Paul Anderson -
   TMP / CPR-Canada [66]
   Re: Abductions: A Funny Thing Happened... - Kevin Randle [57]
   Re: Socorro: The Zamora 'Insignia' - Larry Robinson S/AP/EIS
   Kinesiology [144]
   Re: Abductions: A Funny Thing Happened... - Greg Sandow [59]
   Re: Socorro: The Zamora 'Insignia' - Andy Roberts [216]
   Re: Fireball Likely End Of Perseid Meteors - GT McCoy [16]
   NASA Propulsion Awards - Terry Blanton [82]
   Re: High Flying Sagan - Brian Straight [22]
   Re: Socorro: The Zamora 'Insignia' - Joel Henry [56]
   Re: Socorro: The Zamora 'Insignia' - Joel Henry [32]
   Re: High Flying Sagan - David Rudiak [138]
   Re: UFO Ridicule - John Rimmer [31]
   Re: UFO Ridicule - John Rimmer [158]

  Aug 25:

   Re: UFO Ridicule - Tim D. Brigham [26]
   Re: Research Proposal - Hypnotic Suggestibility - Tim D. Brigham [104]
   Re: Research Proposal - Hypnotic Suggestibility - Tim D. Brigham [45]
   Re: High Flying Sagan - Dennis Stacy [21]
   Re: Re: Socorro: The Zamora 'Insignia' - Bruce Maccabee [33]
   Re: Kenneth Arnold's 'Flying Discs' - Bruce Maccabee [73]
   TMP News: Next Opportunity for Images of 'Face' on - Paul Anderson -
   TMP / CPR-Canada [44]
   Re: Research Proposal - Hypnotic Suggestibility - Tim D. Brigham [20]
   Re: Socorro: The Zamora 'Insignia' - Jerome Clark [232]
   Re: Abductions: A Funny Thing Happened... - Jim Mortellaro [46]
   Re: UFO Ridicule - Jerome Clark [166]
   Re: 'Doorway Amnesia' & Modern Day Abductees? - Amy Hebert [64]
   Re: 'New?' FBI memo about Roswell - Neil Morris [160]
   Re: UFO Ridicule - Jenny Randles [202]

  Aug 26:

   Re: 'New?' FBI memo about Roswell - James Bond Johnson [115]
   European Journal of UFO and Abduction Studies - John Hayes [29]
   UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 4, Number 18 - Joseph Trainor - Masinaigan [443]
   Jorge Martin's e-mail? - Thiago Ticchetti [10]
   Recent OZ Sightings [08-25-99] - Diane Harrison - Keith Basterfield
   Network [137]
   Re: Research Proposal - Hypnotic Suggestibility - Jerome Clark [44]
   Re: Socorro: The Zamora 'Insignia' - Dennis Stacy [48]
   Re: Next Opportunity for Images of 'Face' - Mac Tonnies [31]
   Re: Abductions: A Funny Thing Happened... - Dennis Stacy [23]
   Bright Blue Flash Of Light Over San Francisco Bay - Stig Agermose [13]
   The Brave New World Of Arthur C. Clarke - Stig Agermose [3]
   Re: 'Doorway Amnesia' & Modern Day Abductees? - Sue Strickland [66]
   TMP News: Addendum - Fax Numbers for NASA and CNN - Paul Anderson - TMP
   / CPR-Canada [53]
   Re: 'Doorway Amnesia' & Modern Day Abductees? - John Velez [80]
   Re: Research Proposal - Hypnotic Suggestibility - Jenny Randles [136]
   Re: Socorro: The Zamora 'Insignia' - David Rudiak [472]
   Re: Kenneth Arnold's 'Flying Discs' - David Rudiak [70]
   Re: 'New?' FBI memo about Roswell - Kevin Randle [84]

  Aug 27:

   Re: UFO Ridicule - Bill Weber [34]
   Re: Abductions: A Funny Thing Happened... - Jim Mortellaro [40]
   Re: UFO Ridicule - Greg Sandow [10]
   Re: Socorro: The Zamora 'Insignia' - Jim Mortellaro [94]
   Re: - neil morris [111]
   Re: 'Doorway Amnesia' & Modern Day Abductees? - Dave Baker [35]
   Re: 'New?' FBI memo about Roswell - UFO UpDates - Toronto [119]
   Re: UFO Ridicule - John Rimmer [60]
   Re: 'New?' FBI memo about Roswell - David Rudiak [233]
   Re: 'New?' FBI memo about Roswell - neil morris [111]
   Re: Kenneth Arnold's 'Flying Discs' - Jim Mortellaro [94]
   Re: Kenneth Arnold's 'Flying Discs' - Dennis Stacy [30]
   NASA Unveils First Images From Chandra X-Ray - NASANews@hq.nasa.gov
   [91]
   CE: Mantell Update - slk [15]
   June UFO Report From New Mexico - Kenny Young [54]
   P-47: Corso's DA66 - Jim Klotz [11]
   Re: Socorro: The Zamora 'Insignia' - Asgeir W. Skavhaug [179]
   Re: UFO Ridicule - Jerome Clark [91]
   Re: UFO Ridicule - Jenny Randles [88]
   Re: 'New?' FBI memo about Roswell - James Bond Johnson [317]
   Re: Filer's Files #34 - George A. Filer [389]
   Re: UFO Ridicule - Jim Mortellaro [41]
   Re: Films of UFOs and Sasquatch - Royce J. Myers III [28]

  Aug 28:

   CPR-Canada News: More Crop Circles - Ardmore, - Paul Anderson - TMP /
   CPR-Canada [70]
   Re: UFO Ridicule - Dennis Stacy [76]
   Re: 'New?' FBI memo about Roswell - Dennis Stacy [37]
   BWW Media Alert 19990827 - Bufo Calvin [191]
   Re: UFO Ridicule - Bill Weber [74]
   Alfred's Odd Ode #314 - Alfred Lehmberg [111]
   Re: Daylight Flying Triangle Footage - John Velez [52]
   TUVPO Project ALP - Erol Erkmen [16]
   Re: Kenneth Arnold's 'Flying Discs' - Asgeir W. Skavhaug [87]
   Re: UFO Ridicule - Scott Reed [98]
   Re: 'New?' FBI memo about Roswell - Alfred Lehmberg [55]
   Re: UFO Ridicule - Jerome Clark [46]

  Aug 29:

   Re: 'New?' FBI memo about Roswell - David Rudiak [100]
   Re: 'New?' FBI memo about Roswell - Mac Tonnies [24]
   Re: 'New?' FBI memo about Roswell - Steven W. Kaeser [29]
   Re: UFO Ridicule - Dennis Stacy [25]
   Re: Georgia: UFO Cult Claims Harassment By - GT McCoy [35]
   Re: UFO Desk Update - Paul Williams [11]
   Of Poop, Gas, Birds And Bull... - Jim Mortellaro [132]
   Re: Daylight Flying Triangle Footage - Amy Hebert [27]
   Re: 'New?' FBI memo about Roswell - Neil Morris [51]
   Re: Georgia: UFO Cult Claims Harassment By - Paul Williams [31]
   Re: 'New?' FBI memo about Roswell - David Rudiak [51]
   Re: UFO Ridicule - Diane Harrison - Keith Basterfield Network [82]
   Re: UFO Ridicule - Jerome Clark [43]
   'Strange Days...Indeed' - Tonight: Michael David - UFO UpDates -
   Toronto [139]

  Aug 30:

   CPR-Canada News - 08-29-99 - Paul Anderson - TMP / CPR-Canada [122]
   Re: UFO Ridicule - John Rimmer [81]
   Re: 'New?' FBI memo about Roswell - Gildas Bourdais [31]
   Re: Of Poop, Gas, Birds And Bull... - Marty Murray [41]
   Re: UFO Ridicule - Dennis Stacy [10]
   Re: UFO Ridicule - Dennis Stacy [120]
   Re: Research Proposal - Hypnotic Suggestibility - Tim D. Brigham [54]
   Re: Of Poop, Gas, Birds And Bull... - Bruce Maccabee [141]
   Re: Research Proposal - Hypnotic Suggestibility - Tim D. Brigham [39]
   Re: Daylight Flying Triangle Footage - John Velez [49]
   Re: Of Poop, Gas, Birds And Bull... - Sean Jones [54]

  Aug 31:

   RPIT: Photograph Example - Neil Morris [25]

   The number enclosed in brackets is the number of lines of new text in





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Aug > Aug 1

                        Re: Sheffield UFO Incident 2?

From: Marc Bell <MARC@wufog.freeserve.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 1 Aug 1999 07:12:25 +0100
Fwd Date: Sun, 01 Aug 1999 08:52:04 -0400
Subject: Re: Sheffield UFO Incident 2?


 >From: Rory Lushman <Oubliette@currantbun.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
 >Subject: Re: Sheffield UFO Incident 2?
 >Date: Sat, 31 Jul 1999 10:41:33 +0100

 >>From: Marc Bell <MARC@wufog.freeserve.co.uk>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Sheffield UFO Incident 2?
 >>Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1999 20:04:13 +0100

 >>My opinion is also swayed by the fact I have seen one of these
 >>craft recently at close quarters with two witnesses present. It
 >>'blinked' out against a clear blue sky. Perhaps someone on this
 >>list can name a 'man made' craft that can do this.

 >Firstly you need to define how close, "close quarters" is.
 >Witness reliability of distance is very poor.  Saying it blinked
 >out gives the impression it was a long way from the observer.
 >Planes blink out. Planes heading towards you with a spotlight on
 >(yes they have them on during the day) then suddenly turning
 >away can give the impression of blinking. A plane that reflects
 >sunlight, can also blink off as it turns away.

 >You describe it as a craft; on what do you base this
 >observation. I have seen many things that to the naked eye seem
 >"weird."  But get a pair of binoculars out and "Hey Presto",
 >mystery solved. I was watching some white balloons fly over my
 >house yesterday, I could see them through the binoculars.
 >However, to the naked eye, they looked like a spinning, white
 >bright object.

<snip>

Hi Rory,

If you're interested I'll post the details.

But how do you judge scale & distance against a clear
blue sky?

All the best,

Marc





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                         Re: Nick Pope's Weird World

From: Rory Lushman <Oubliette@currantbun.com>
Date: Sun, 1 Aug 1999 11:27:52 +0100
Fwd Date: Sun, 01 Aug 1999 09:03:00 -0400
Subject: Re: Nick Pope's Weird World


 >From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >Date: Sat, 31 Jul 1999 12:41:50 EDT
 >Subject: Re: Nick Pope's Weird World
 >To: updates@globalserve.net

 >>From: Georgina Bruni <georgina@easynet.co.uk>
 >>Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 14:57:36 +0100
 >>To: updates@globalserve.net
 >>Subject: Nick Pope's Weird World


 >>>From: Rory Lushman <Oubliette@currantbun.com>
 >>>To: UFO Updates <updates@Globalserve.net>
 >>>Subject: Re: Nick Pope's Weird World
 >>>Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 22:28:22 +0100

 >>Over the past few months I d been becoming more
 >>bullish in my response to certain people within ufology who'd
 >>been sniping at me over the years.  Nobody likes criticism,
 >>and I'd been getting a fair bit - little of it constructive in
 >>nature.

 >>>Maybe if you removed the following from your opening header,
 >>>people would take you seriously.

 >>Welcome to the July column, and the latest news and gossip from
 >>the weird and wacky world of UFOs, alien abductions and the
 >>paranormal.

 >I am bound and driven, not to mention shriven, by my conscience
 >and liver (what's left of both, the combination achieving a
 >modest similacrum to both) to comment on the comments...
 >coments, whatever...  sorry, my speel cheeker aint workin.

Eerrr, Whatever.

 >Please, Kind Sir, elicit from your pen, the name of any _one_
 >UFO researcher or other person or persons who are associated
 >with the subject, who is at one time or another (if not too
 >freaking often), whacky, wild, gossiping weirdos.  Go ahead.  I
 >dare you.


Georgina Bruni by her own comments. Alas your little ploy to get
me to name names, will not work. What purpose would it serve.


 >While I agree on the definition, and agree that gossiping should
 >be stopped, I also think that the request should be made of, oh,
 >say 95% of all of us in this racket.  Which is why I do my
 >Grippling in public.  May as well act like the idiot I am
 >instead of people saying it behind my back.  I am much more
 >comfortable this way. And I get to call a spade the ass-a-whole
 >he, she or it really is without having the portfolio the biggies
 >on this list have.


You miss the point in all your efforts to attempt a witty
answer, in which you fail. Gossip has always been a part of any
activity, work, leisure or relationships; its human nature.

_But_, when you advertise a magazine based on gossip, who is
going to take you seriously. Moreover, who is going to take a
forthcoming book seriously when Georgina is too busy writing, or
repeating gossip in her bulletins.

Aren't we all doing our "grippling" in public by using the
UpDates forum.


 >>Being Nick Pope's messenger doesn't help either. Tell him to
 >>get on the Internet and do his own messages instead of using
 >>you.

 >I disagree, all my posts are written by my own personal ghost.
 >Make that ghost writer.  Goebles Gomez.  Aint his stuff great?


If you say so.

 >>If your standard of research is on a par with Nick's, then
 >>welcome to the Twilight Zone. Don't go on any toll roads, they
 >>cause you all sorts of problems. Of course we are all looking
 >>forward to your forthcoming book to set the record straight.

 >Do you know what you just wrote and how it reminds me of
 >something?  Let me elaborate....

No, please not more attempts at humour.

 >Rory, I do not disagree with you.  I just think that you have a
 >very limited target in mind.  You should consider opening up the
 >choke on that 12 gauge you are using.  Full choke is for blowing
 >holes in one person.  Me thinks you need to knock down a coupla'
 >more clays than the one you shot at.  Try a modified, open or
 >maybe no choke at all.  I use a sawed off meeself.  And for full
 >effectiveness, try a SIX gauge.  Woof!  Powders them clays like
 >baking soda in the wind.

Keep taking the tablets....at least your responses are unique.

Cheers






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                                  Re: IFOs

From: engima9 <ENGIMA9@compuserve.com>
Date: Sun, 1 Aug 1999 12:16:41 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 02 Aug 1999 10:23:32 -0400
Subject: Re: IFOs


 >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >Date: Sat, 31 Jul 99 10:27:32 PDT
 >Fwd Date: Sat, 31 Jul 1999 18:19:50 -0400
 >Subject: Re: IFOs

Just a few selective comments re some specific aspects of the
recent John Rimmer/Jerome Clark "IFO" debate.....

(John Rimmer wrote):

 >>So basically, to reject a workable scientific model of the
 >>universe on the basis of a series of contentious and
 >>questionable narratives, is iconoclastic and by inference a
 >>goodthing; continuing to doubt the literal validity of these
 >>reports because there is no convincing evidence behind them,
 >>is being safe and unheretical and fearful of the riducule of
 >>the establishment.

(Jerome Clark's reply):

 >It's precisely this sort of self-righteous posturing that helps
 >make us American ufologists so deeply skeptical of the theories
 >of English majors and librarians about UFOs. Yet one more
 >reason I am proud not to be a pelicanist, or psychosociologist,
 >or whatever the proper name for your continuing exercise in
 >ridicule-avoidance.

No, Mr. Clark, none of this is "self-righteous posturing". This
is an attitude born of U.K Ufologists - *active* Ufologists -
discovering, (time after time) that many supposed "classic UFO"
cases have totally reasonable solutions, when subjected to
detailed and critical examination. And I wouldn't call this
attitude "ridicule avoidance", either. It's merely British
researchers "accepting the facts"; no matter how much they
contrast with our expectations, or upset our (previously held)
world view/beliefs. And make no mistake - many of us have
entered this subject as firm believers in the ETH; only to find
that the evidence simply won't justify that conclusion (at least
conclusively). The critical findings of U.K Ufology - even when
subject to protracted assault by determined critics - have stood
the test of time. But when does the UFO community ever give us
the credit for this? The high intellectual level of British and
European Ufology has been won at a great cost, akin to battling
through a tide of credulity and ignorance often as thick as the
frontal armour on an Abrams MBT!

But the sad thing is that the publishing and other print (and
electronic) media seem determined to ignore this hard-won
knowledge-base and continually push an uncritical view of this
subject down the throats of the ignorant general public.

The soul of Ufology effectively sold for "Judas-silver"! But
that's another story.......


(Jerome Clark also wrote:)

 >There is, of course, "convincing evidence" for the existence of
 >anomalous UFOs, though no one would know that from reading
 >Magonia. Maybe you think that grand rhetorical gestures will
 >drive the heresies (and the heretics) from the temple.

Yes, it does exist; but it's all highly controversial. And most
of it refers to low strangeness events. As for the evidence of
"high strangeness" level, what does exist is open to question.
None of it goes anyway to proving that holy cow of Ufology, the
ETH. This odd "factual standoff", where we don't have any real
proof, only suggestive "evidence", seems to hint more at unusual
forms of natural phenomena than alien spacecraft.

<snip>

 >.....convincingly documented cases which have stubbornly
 >withstood the assaults of pelicanists, see The UFO Encyclopedia,
 >2nd Ed., on the Coyne CE2 (254-57), Portland County Sightings
 >(719-27), RB-47 case (761-90), or the Socorro CE2/CE3 (856-67).

That's all very much a matter of opinion. Serious question marks
still hang over ALL these cases; if it were otherwise would the
validity of the ETH be based on belief and conviction rather
than incontrovertable physical evidence? If any of these cases
were truely evidential for an ETH origin of UFOs, any one of
them alone would have vindicated the ETH. They haven't even
conclusively resolved the question of UFO reality to the
satisfaction of the mainstream scientific community!

<snip>

 >Long live the iconoclasm of American ufology, and long may it
 >thrive. Too bad British ufology -- or at least that end of it
 >that's wandering aimlessly through the library stacks -- has
 >lost its way.

Yet again, here we have the usual Jerome Clark charge that all
of those critical of the USA approach towards UFOs are
"librarians", "English majors" or "armchair researchers".

Well, for your information, (and picking one example from the
air, so to speak) one such critical UK "Ufologist" is David
Clarke, who has been actively investigating UFOs since the early
1980's, but has reached (approximately) the same conclusions as
John Rimmer! So this viewpoint is hardly born of merely being an
"armchair" researcher. It's born of checking the data and often
finding it evidentually lacking - well, in regards to the ETH
anyhow.

The average "critical" UK researcher openly accepts there IS a
physical aspect to UFOs (and also more subjective ones). We base
these findings on what has been uncovered during OUR case
investigations, fused with the work of researchers as diverse as
Paul Devereux and Dr. Susan Blackmore, as well as on the
knowledge accumulated by mainstream science (ranging from
geophysics to neurology).

Rather than U.K ufology having lost it's way, we U.K researchers
often feel that USA researchers have lost their way; the latter
seemingly more concerned with how many people "believe" in UFOs
rather than WHY they believe in UFOs (to quote just one
example)! But, then again, maybe American researchers should
start opening their eyes and start noticing the actuality of the
psychosocial componants of Ufology, a factor all too blindingly
obvious to UK and European UFO researchers.

<snip>


 > The UFO Handbook represents one informed, thoughtful man's
 >opinion and should be read as such, not as a late-20th-Century
 >edition of The Bible. It also represents the pessimistic state
 >of mind Allan was in at the time he wrote it, and so there is a
 >subjective element to the conclusions it draws. (There is, of
 >course, a "subjective element" in just about all things human
 >beings, including you and me, do. I mention this only because
 >the Handbook's more enthusiastic, lessly critically minded
 >readers like to think of it as coldly objective -- meaning only,
 >naturally, that it tells them, or at least they think it does,
 >what they want to hear.)

Surely if Allan Hendry was "pessimistic" regarding certain
aspects of UFOs, this could be attributed to WHAT he found
during his examination of UFO sighting claims. Yes, while it is
true that some researchers (seemingly) forget that he
"uncovered" a reasonable quantity of "True UFOs", it should also
not be forgotten that he also found many more IFOs too. IFOs
that were often described in exotic terms. For example,
advertising aircraft which can resemble illuminated "Domed
discs" under certain viewing conditions/angles. While his study
gives SOME hope that there MAY be some form of ACTUAL UFO
phenomena, which can withstand critical examination, it also
shows that eyewitness testimony cannot be depended on for the
reality of UFOs.

Regards,






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                         Re: Nick Pope's Weird World

From: Georgina Bruni <georgina@easynet.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 01 Aug 1999 18:25:02 +0100
Fwd Date: Mon, 02 Aug 1999 10:25:37 -0400
Subject: Re: Nick Pope's Weird World


 >From: Rory Lushman <Oubliette@currantbun.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
 >Subject: Re: Nick Pope's Weird World
 >Date: Sun, 1 Aug 1999 11:27:52 +0100

Re: My forthcoming book:

Rory. your comments are noted. I have e-mailed Jenny Randles
privately with regard to her taking the liberty of posting
details of a "private e-mail" communication onto a public forum.

With regard to my forthcoming book, it is a totally separate
entity than the magazine you refer too. Nick Pope's column does
not necessarily reflect my own opinion on the subject, this also
applies to the subjects written by the 14 other contributing
editors who write for Hot Gossip UK on subjects as varied as
Art, Music, Fashion, Health etc.

You talk of gossip - there has been more gossip (including that
which you yourself have posted here) about my forthcoming book
on the Rendlesham Forest incident. But the truth is, that none
of you gossip mongers have a clue about its contents and will
probably get the shock of your lives when you do find out. And I
assure you there is no gossip within these pages, in fact, I
think one of the things which will become evident, is the
exposure of gossip and rumour which has been prominent in this
case. It takes a good gossip columnist to spot the nonsense, you
know!

Rory, I suggest you go away and come back when the book is
published, you can criticise it as much as you like then.
Meanwhile, you nor anyone else can possibly know its contents,
even the title is top secret.

Now there's a thought to play with

Regards

Georgina Bruni






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                                Bang a Gong?

From: Mike Hallal <mhallal9@idt.net>
Date: Sun, 01 Aug 1999 13:52:33 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 02 Aug 1999 10:27:07 -0400
Subject: Bang a Gong?


Any reports on NASA also measuring the lunar "vibrations" when
Prospector went bang?

Is the Honeymooner's mascot "still ringing"?

Or is the hollow/cavernous mooncore theory a load of cheese?





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                            [anomilt] BAR 199907

From: BufoCalvin@aol.com
Date: Sun, 1 Aug 1999 13:31:05 EDT
Fwd Date: Mon, 02 Aug 1999 10:37:02 -0400
Subject: [anomilt] BAR 199907


Bufo Calvin
P O Box 5231, Walnut Creek, CA 94596
Internet: BufoCalvin@aol.com
Website: http://members.aol.com/bufocalvin
http://members.aol.com/bufocalvin
<http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/redirect-home/bufosweirdworld
Link to Amazon.com

July, 1999 (Vol. 2, #7)

Books mentioned in BAR can be ordered on most e-mail systems by
clicking on the hyperlink title. This will take you to the book
at Amazon.com. You can read more about it at that point and
decide if you want to order it. If you do, you add it to your
"shopping cart". Then, if you want another title mentioned here,
please click on it in this post. If you have questions, please
e-mail Bufo at bufocalvin@aol.com BufoCalvin@aol.com

Books are also available by phone from Greenleaf Publications at
1-800-905-UFOs (1-800-905-8367). If you call, please be sure to
tell them that Bufo sent you.

Books in BAR now include some titles available from the UK.
This is for the convenience of my European subscribers, as well
as allowing for the listing of more titles.  These books will be
indicated with a (UK) designation.

NOTE: It is possible that by the next issue, BAR will be coming
to you from a different listserver.  Specifically, it may come
to you from Onelist.  A final decision hasn't been made.  My
"mystery benefactor" has served me well and generously over the
years, but there are some conveniences in using Onelist (as I do
for http://www.onelist.com/subscribe/bwnl Bufo's WEIRD
NEWS LINKS).  If you have any input, please let me know.

If you have books to recommend, please let me know. If you would
like to be named as recommending it, include that information as
well and tell me you would like to be cited.

In this issue: Featured Titles and Recent Arrivals:

FEATURED TITLES:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0684856026/bufosweirdworld
Cryptozoology A to Z (paperback)

http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0684856026/bufosweirdworl08

Cryptozoology A to Z (UK) (paperback)
by Loren Coleman and Jerome Clark
August 1999
270 pages, illustrations, photographs, appendices, recommended reading (no
index)

I don't know how long it has been since I enjoyed a book this
much!  While 1999 has produced a surprising quantity of
cryptozoology titles, the quality has been remarkably good as
well.

Coleman and Clark give us an encyclopedia of "hidden" animals.
While some, such as the Loch Ness Monsters and Bigfoot, will be
familiar to almost everyone, others will likely be delightful
surprises for most readers.  The book also includes welcome
entries on people involved in the field, as well as
scientifically-recognized species that have a bearing on the
topic (such as the coelacanth and the mountain gorilla, both
major discoveries of the twentieth century).

Generally, this seems to be the book the authors wanted to
write.  A few things could use a bit more fleshing out: for
example, the Barbara Wasson entry praises her book, but doesn't
name it (although it is listed in the bibliography).  Due to an
apparent desire to be up-to-date, some of the elements will seem
overly time-period-dependent in the future (the talk of current
or future expeditions, for example).  These minor imperfections
don't significantly detract from the professionalism of the
book.  I read it cover to cover, although its encyclopedia
format will make it a useful reference book as well.

The book does steer clear of paranormal interpretation of the
various creatures, allowing one entry (Goblin Universe) and a
few brief mentions of books.  This was probably a wise choice.
While it limits the book somewhat, it makes it appropriate for a
wider audience.  Any school library, for instance, would be
well-served by having it on the shelves.  While some may
criticize the authors for excluding UFO and occult
interpretations, it seems completely legitimate to focus the
book on this one approach.

Each of the entries is informative, accurate, and entertaining.
In the same way that ON THE TRACK OF UNKNOWN ANIMALS inspired
many of today's cryptozoologists, CZAZ will inspire tomorrow's.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0028623878/bufosweirdworld

The Complete Idiot's Guide to Extraterrestrial Intelligence (paperback)

http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0028623878/bufosweirdworl08

The Complete Idiot's Guide to Extraterrestrial Intelligence (UK)
(paperback)

by Michael Kurland
January 1999
325 pages, illustrations, photographs, appendices, index

What would happen if you paid an astronomer to write a book
about astrology?  You would get wonderfully precise descriptions
of the constellations, with an occasional "Oh yeah, they are
supposed to affect your personality, too."

That's very much the feeling I got with this book.  The author,
Michael Kurland, is apparently much more of a science fiction
fan and science buff that an expert on UFOs.  While what is
covered in the book is mostly accurate, it leaves out large
portions of the picture.

The book, of course, doesn't represent itself as being solely
about UFOs.  However, they are prominently featured on the book
cover, and it is part of a series on weird topics (including
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0028631137/bufosweirdworld
Palmistry,

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0028629043/bufosweirdworld
Being Psychic,
and http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0028631129/bufosweirdworld
New Millennium Predictions).

Somebody looking for a book about ufology would be disappointed
with this.  For example, while many science fiction tv series
get their own entries, all of the paranormal shows (SIGHTINGS,
UNSOLVED MYSTERIES, etc.) are lumped into one.

The book is also disdainful and dismissive of things the author
doesn't like or doesn't seem to understand.  While the Dummies
series of books is quite good and respectful of the reader, this
one (as a representative of the Idiot's series) seems to treat
them as though the author thinks they are morons.

The book is organized in a useful manner, and profusely
illustrated with cartoons that define terms, provide quotations,
and so on.  If it had been written by someone who not only could
write (as Kurland clearly can), but was an expert on and
interested in UFOs, it could have been a good overview of the
topic.  As it is, it is better suited to those interested in
SETI and sci-fi.


RECENT ADDITIONS:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1567183085/bufosweirdworld
Astral Voyages (paperback)
by Dr. Bruce Goldberg
June 1999

<A
HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/188068313X/bufosweirdworld">Buck'
s County Ghost Stories (paperback)</A>
by Charles J. Adams
June 1999

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0709061188/bufosweirdworld
Doubles: The Enigma of the Second Self (hardback)
by Rodney Davies
July 1999

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0932813577/bufosweirdworld
Liquid Conspiracy (paperback)
Subtitle: LSD, JFK, the CIA, Area 51, and UFOs
by George Piccard
July 1999

____________________________
*Prices are set by Amazon.com. Clicking on the link will take
you to their current listing and show the current price. Books
marked with UK are available from Amazon.co.UK.
____________________________






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                        Re: Sheffield UFO Incident 2?

From: Tony Spurrier <TSpurrier@compuserve.com>
Date: Sun, 1 Aug 1999 15:36:07 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 02 Aug 1999 10:40:52 -0400
Subject: Re: Sheffield UFO Incident 2?


 >Date: Sat, 31 Jul 1999 18:55:11 +0000
 >From: Dave Bowden <dave.bowden@cableinet.co.uk>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
 >Subject: Re: Sheffield UFO Incident 2?

 >Your original comment also made mention of a 'lower standard'
 >used by Roy Hale. This is laughable coming from someone who
 >hasn't even seen the footage we are speaking of.

Dave

My comment was not directed at this footage, which was actually
brought up after my comment. Perhaps you missed my example of
the childs balloon?

Tony





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                        Re: Sheffield UFO Incident 2?

From: Tony Spurrier <TSpurrier@compuserve.com>
Date: Sun, 1 Aug 1999 15:36:22 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 02 Aug 1999 10:42:36 -0400
Subject: Re: Sheffield UFO Incident 2?


 >From: Marc Bell <MARC@wufog.freeserve.co.uk>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
 >Subject: Re: Sheffield UFO Incident 2?
 >Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1999 20:04:13 +0100<

 >What I have seen with my own eyes and what I've seen on video
 >(when I have also been a witness), can only be discribed as
 >'un-explained'. However in my humble opinion, there is nothing
 >to say that some of these could be a) structured E.T. craft b)
 >sky beast

I agree. I too have witnessed some strange lights which were
possibly part of a structured craft, and every effort was made
to identify it's origin. Unfortunately, it wasn't picked up on
radar by Heathrow nor by RAF West Drayton. So I too can't rule
out the possibility of it being an ET craft, but in the same
vane I can't say it was. The reason I jumped in this thread was
that someone said that the body of evidence suggested some UFOs
are ET craft, and I believe that until there is open public
contact by ET's we can only theorise about them visiting Earth,
therefore UFOs remain UFOs.

My point about standards of evidence was that two people, both
believers in the eth can view the same evidence, one will accept
it as an ET craft without investigation, the other will look for
other possible explanations before accepting the possibility.

 >My opinion is also swayed by the fact I have seen one of these
 >craft recently at close quarters with two witnesses present. It
 >'blinked' out against a clear blue sky. Perhaps someone on this
 >list can name a 'man made' craft that can do this.

As a witness you know what you saw, but to those who didn't
witness it you need to demonstrate that you made attempts to
look for a conventional explanation. Did you see if the object
was picked up on civilian radar, military radar, did you check
whether it was an iridium flare? Without the obvious
explanations being checked any sighting can be dubbed a UFO but
remains a long way short of being an ET craft.

Ufology is littered with anecdotal evidence, it's about time a
minimum standard was set for sighting investigations. Currently
it's left to each group and their standard of evidence, which
varies from just talking to witnesses and deciding whether to
believe them or not, to rigorous investigations including door
to door enquiries to find corroborating witnesses.

 >It is also interesting to note that I was on a mobile phone link
 >to Chris Martin talking about sightings we had made earlier that
 >day (on video) and one of the witnesses a few seconds prior to
 >this was telling me she'd love to see one really close up.... I
 >can't explain it.

I have been studying aspects of the subconscious mind, and I
don't mean hypnotism. The mind is very suggestible and I could
show you some astounding feats that are possible simply by
talking directly to the subconscious. Some of the
synchronicities in ufology, like the one you mention above,
could be realised through a degree of suggestibility. It's just
something I think we need to bear in mind, but I'm not saying it
accounts for your experience.

Marc I have only used the sightings you mention as examples, and
I'm not directing my opinion at you, but discussing the way
forward to make evidence of UFOs more acceptable.

Tony





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                        Re: Sheffield UFO Incident 2?

From: Sue Addison <NevadaFighter@compuserve.com>
Date: Sun, 1 Aug 1999 16:39:23 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 02 Aug 1999 10:50:44 -0400
Subject: Re: Sheffield UFO Incident 2?


 >Date: Sat, 31 Jul 1999 18:55:11 +0000
 >From: Dave Bowden <dave.bowden@cableinet.co.uk>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
 >Subject: Re: Sheffield UFO Incident 2?


 >>Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 11:16:51 -0400
 >>From: Tony Spurrier <TSpurrier@compuserve.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Sheffield UFO Incident 2?
 >>To: "updates@globalserve.net" <updates@globalserve.net>

 >>I have never mentioned anything about Chris Martin's video, only
 >>Roy and yourself have brought this into play. My original
 >>comment was that everyone has a different standard to which they
 >>believe a UFO is an ET craft.

 >I need more than a ball of light in the sky to convince me that
 >it's an ET craft too but Chris has brought this video to me for
 >analysis and it stands up as a true UFO. ie: it's not a
 >satellite because it's under the clouds, it changes direction,
 >it zips off from 0 to whatever in a split second, need I say
 >more.

 >Your original comment also made mention of a 'lower standard'
 >used by Roy Hale. This is laughable coming from someone who
 >hasn't even seen the footage we are speaking of.

 >Even though I agree it's no evidence of ET it IS evidence of the
 >phenomena that occupies our skies. Keep the teeth clenched until
 >you've seen the footage then start flapping the jaw.

 >Dave.

PMFJI, but could you explain where Tony has ever questioned the
video or research of Chris Martin or Marc Bell? I've been
following this thread and have not seen any evidence of him even
hinting at this.

Sue






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                        Obtaining The COMETA Rreport?

From: Keith Rowell <krowell@mail.teleport.com>
Date: Sun, 1 Aug 1999 17:14:14 -0700
Fwd Date: Mon, 02 Aug 1999 10:52:00 -0400
Subject: Obtaining The COMETA Rreport?

Is this report available somewhere on the Internet in French or
English? Thanks for any help you can give me in locating a copy.

KR






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                      Nick Pope'S Weird World - Aug '99

From: Georgina Bruni <georgina@easynet.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 02 Aug 1999 14:14:19 +0100
Fwd Date: Mon, 02 Aug 1999 10:56:59 -0400
Subject: Nick Pope'S Weird World - Aug '99


NICK  POPE�S  WEIRD  WORLD
HOT GOSSIP UK

By Nick Pope

We made it to August, so Nostradamus was wrong, and I�ll get to
see the total eclipse, after all.  Hurrah!  Now all we�ve got to
worry about is the Y2K Bug, doomsday cults and another Spice
Girls Xmas single.  It�ll be touch and go, but we may yet make
it to the next Millennium.


Total Eclipse

On Wednesday 11 August, I�ll be travelling down to south Devon
for the most awesome show on Earth - a total eclipse of the sun.
Most of the TV networks will be running �eclipse specials�, and
I�ve already pre-recorded an interview for Channel 5 about the
likelihood of UFOs being seen during the eclipse.  This has come
up because of what happened in Mexico during the total eclipse
on 11 July 1991, when numerous people saw UFOs, and a number of
sightings were captured on film.  I think ufologists need to be
careful here.  Many of those people travelling down to see
totality will be predisposed towards the ETH, and people often
see what they expect to see, or want to see.  Furthermore, many
people are planning to see the eclipse from aircraft,
helicopters and hot air balloons.  So when darkness falls, the
sky will be filled with all sorts of light sources that were
invisible a few moments before.  Imagine somebody on the ground,
with a camcorder, who suddenly catches sight of a bright light.
People get quite emotional during eclipses, so we may get all
sorts of UFO sighting reports and shaky videos. Sorry to be a
party pooper, but I think ufologists should retain a healthy
scepticism about any UFOs seen during this or any other eclipse.
Anyway, watch the usual Internet sites for details of any
sightings, and I�ll write a full, eye-witness report in my next
column.

Finally, on this subject, an important warning.  Never, ever
look directly at the sun, unless you�re using an approved
eclipse viewer that complies to approved safety standards.  Do
not look through a piece of film.  Do not look through
sunglasses.  Do not look through a bit of glass you�ve held in
front of some smoke for a few moments.  If you do any of these
things, you run the risk of serious eye damage, including
permanent blindness.  The eclipse will be a truly awesome
spectacle, but if you don�t follow the safety advice that will
be published in the media, it may be the last thing you ever
see.  Please pass this warning onto everyone you know who�s
planning to watch, and ensure that children are properly
supervised.


New JFK Documents

One of the most interesting things to emerge from the recent G8
summit of the world�s leading powers was that the Russian
delegation handed the American delegation copies of KGB
documents on the JFK assassination.  Lee Harvey Oswald had lived
in the USSR for a time, and after Kennedy�s murder, the Soviets
were petrified that the US would think they had something to do
with the killing.  So the KGB launched its own investigation.
JFK researchers have known about these documents for some time,
and some have been given access to the papers, but this latest
development is bound to rekindle interest, not least on the part
of my Editor in Chief!


UFO Magazine Website

Check out the new UFO Magazine website at ufomag.co.uk for a
wide range of interesting articles, features and photographs.
There�s advance news about conferences, and details of how to
order a huge variety of UFO-related books, videos, audio tapes
and documents.  This is an important new site, and the plan is
that it will be constantly updated, to bring you breaking news
stories.


The Uninvited

I hope you saw The Uninvited on Sky One on Wednesday 7 July at
10pm.  This was the most comprehensive programme on alien
abductions ever made, and was part of a series of UFO-related
programmes made by Transmedia Productions. Watch out for that
10pm slot on Wednesdays, on Sky One, as they seem to be showing
all the programmes in the series.  If you missed it, you can
probably order the video from UFO Magazine, via the website
listed above.


Alien Big Cats

My brother still hasn�t sent me his report of his sighting of a
large cat in South Devon, so cryptozoologists will have to wait
until my next column, when I hope to be able to feature his
account in its entirety.


THAAD

Conspiracy theorists who believe that the Strategic Defence
Initiative (nicknamed the �Star Wars� programme) was designed to
deal with an alien threat may be interested to learn that the
first successful test of the Theater High Altitude Area Defence
(THAAD) Missile took place in America on 10 June.  Ostensibly a
ballistic missile defence system, this involves a missile
intercepting and destroying another missile.  The test took
place at the White Sands missile range in New Mexico.


Engage

Star Trek fans will be familiar with the concept of warp speed,
in which the various incarnations of the USS Enterprise have
traversed the galaxy at speeds way in excess of light speed.
Now comes yet more serious scientific research which suggests
that such concepts aren�t so way out, after all. The 12 June
edition of New Scientist carried an article highlighting recent
research carried out by Chris Van Den Broeck at the Institute
for Theoretical Physics at the Catholic University of Leuven in
Belgium.  At this stage these are just ideas, but the important
thing is that they are being debated by scientists.  Check out
the New Scientist website at www.newscientist.com for details of
how to access this and other fascinating information.


Uh-Oh, Here Comes Trouble

OK, so Nostradamus goofed, and his �great king of terror� didn�t
come from the sky last month, after all (Actually, that was a
mistranslation, but it was a good story while it lasted, so what
the hell!).  But maybe he just got the date wrong by a month or
so.  What makes me say this?  Well, the Cassini spaceprobe is on
its way to Saturn, but on 18 August it flies very close to the
Earth as part of the strategy to gain extra speed by use of the
so-called slingshot effect.  The spacecraft weighs over six
tons, and carries a plutonium power source which aroused the
wrath of environmental protesters when it was launched in 1997.
Watch the skies, and hope NASA got their sums right.


Early Chupacabras Incident?

Here�s an item of interest for those people who�ve followed the
mystery of the so-called Chupacabras - a strange creature most
frequently seen in Puerto Rico, and associated with various
attacks on animals.  The other day I was re-reading Frank
Drake�s excellent book, Is Anyone Out There?  It�s an
interesting account of the history of radio astronomy, and SETI.
Suddenly, in chapter 4, I came across a little anecdote I must
have missed previously. Drake describes his period as director
of the observatory at Arecibo on Puerto Rico (home to the
largest radio telescope in the world) and mentions an occasion
where a local employee saw a strange man in a black cloak
loitering around the installation.  The man said he thought he
was a vampire, and two days later, a cow was found dead on a
nearby farm, with all the blood drained from its body.  There
was a local panic, and to placate his employees, Drake laced the
food with garlic, and put the word out that this was part of a
strategy to deal with the situation.  There were no further
incidents.  The date isn�t entirely clear from the book, but
seems to be 1966 or 1967.


And Finally

Is it true what people are saying?  I�ve heard a rumour, and
maybe it is just that.  But, well � is there really a new Star
Wars movie out?  They kept that quiet, didn�t they?!


Spaceguard

On 15 June the issue of the threat to the Earth from comets and
asteroids was debated in the House of Lords.  This followed a
debate in the Commons on 3 March.  The Government is considering
what action to take.  Further details are at
http://ds.dial.pipex.com/spaceguard.


Ed�s Note:

Nick Pope�s two books, Open Skies, Closed Minds and The
Uninvited,  are available from all good bookshops.  Simon &
Schuster are his UK publishers, while The Overlook Press publish
his books in America.  Nick�s debut novel, Operation Thunder
Child, will be published in October by Simon & Schuster Ltd.

Posted by Editor in Chief Georgina Bruni on behalf of Nick Pope
Hot Gossip Uk
www.hotgossip.co.uk





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                  CPR-Canada News: Update #3 on Hagersville

From: Paul Anderson - TMP / CPR-Canada <psa@direct.ca>
Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 13:35:46 -0800
Fwd Date: Tue, 03 Aug 1999 13:21:59 -0400
Subject: CPR-Canada News: Update #3 on Hagersville


CPR-Canada News
News and Updates from Circles Phenomenon Research Canada

http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Cavern/3310


Update #3 on Hagersville, Ontario Crop Formations

August 2, 1999

_____________________________


A diagram has been added to the web site (also attached, � Paul
Anderson, CPR-Canada) showing the relationship between the
smaller Hagersville #1 formation and the lunar eclipse which
occurred on the evening of July 28, as described by Lynda
Powless (see Update #2, July 30). Diagram based on fax copy from
Lynda. Indicated is the position of where Lynda was standing
inside the formation at the time, at the end of the one "arm"
which points to where the moon was in the sky.


Paul Anderson
Director
Circles Phenomenon Research Canada

_____________________________


A reminder for all Canadian subscribers / readers -
your assistance is welcome and needed - ANY reports
of other possible circles this year, please do let us
know as soon as possible!

See Reporting and Field Research Guidelines
(http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Cavern/3310/reporting.html)
on the web site for more information.

_____________________________


CPR-Canada News is the e-mail update service of Circles
Phenomenon Research Canada, and is published periodically or as
breaking news develops, with the latest news and information and
is available free by subscription; to be added to or removed
from the mailing list, send your request, including "subscribe
CPR-Canada News" or "unsubscribe CPR-Canada News" and e-mail
address to:

psa@direct.ca

CPR-Canada welcomes your reports and submissions. Forward all
correspondence to:


CIRCLES PHENOMENON RESEARCH CANADA
Circles Phenomenon Research International

Main Office

Suite 202 - 2086 West 2nd Avenue
Vancouver, BC  V6J 1J4  Canada
Tel / Fax: 604.731.8522
E-Mail: psa@direct.ca
Web: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Cavern/3310


� Circles Phenomenon Research Canada, 1999








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                      Re: Obtaining The COMETA Rreport?

From: Perry Petrakis - SOS OVNI <sosovni@pacwan.fr>
Date: Mon, 02 Aug 1999 23:01:59 +0200
Fwd Date: Tue, 03 Aug 1999 13:23:28 -0400
Subject: Re: Obtaining The COMETA Rreport?


 >Date: Sun, 1 Aug 1999 17:14:14 -0700
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
 >From: Keith Rowell <krowell@mail.teleport.com>
 >Subject: Obtaining The COMETA Rreport?

 >Is this report available somewhere on the Internet in French or
 >English? Thanks for any help you can give me in locating a copy.

 >KR


This report is heavily copyrighted material published by a
commercial publication and not an official document free of
rights. It is therefore unavailable over the net.

Best wishes to all

Perry Petrakis
Editor Phenomena
http://www.sosovni.com





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                         Re: Nick Pope's Weird World

From: Jenny Randles <nufon@currantbun.com>
Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 22:09:31 +0100
Fwd Date: Tue, 03 Aug 1999 13:49:51 -0400
Subject: Re: Nick Pope's Weird World


 >From: Georgina Bruni <georgina@easynet.co.uk>
 >Date: Sun, 01 Aug 1999 18:25:02 +0100
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
 >Subject: Re: Nick Pope's Weird World

 >>From: Rory Lushman <Oubliette@currantbun.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Nick Pope's Weird World
 >>Date: Sun, 1 Aug 1999 11:27:52 +0100

 >Re: My forthcoming book:

 >Rory. your comments are noted. I have e-mailed Jenny Randles
 >privately with regard to her taking the liberty of posting
 >details of a "private e-mail" communication onto a public forum.

 >With regard to my forthcoming book, it is a totally separate
 >entity than the magazine you refer too. Nick Pope's column does
 >not necessarily reflect my own opinion on the subject, this also
 >applies to the subjects written by the 14 other contributing
 >editors who write for Hot Gossip UK on subjects as varied as
 >Art, Music, Fashion, Health etc.

 >You talk of gossip - there has been more gossip (including that
 >which you yourself have posted here) about my forthcoming book
 >on the Rendlesham Forest incident. But the truth is, that none
 >of you gossip mongers have a clue about its contents and will
 >probably get the shock of your lives when you do find out. And I
 >assure you there is no gossip within these pages, in fact, I
 >think one of the things which will become evident, is the
 >exposure of gossip and rumour which has been prominent in this
 >case. It takes a good gossip columnist to spot the nonsense, you
 >know!

 >Rory, I suggest you go away and come back when the book is
 >published, you can criticise it as much as you like then.
 >Meanwhile, you nor anyone else can possibly know its contents,
 >even the title is top secret.
 >
 >Now there's a thought to play with
 >
 >Regards
 >
 >Georgina Bruni


Hi,

All I will say is this. Good luck to Georgina if she has a
really new twist on this case and will shock us all etc. Any new
book on this affair is fascinating. I look forward to it and am
not pre-supposing anything about it. How could I if even the
title is top secret.

But I was placed in a position where a week or two ago a series
of questions were asked of me by Georgina. I had to offer
replies, but did not feel that I could do so for her book. She
knows why because I have explained this to her. The questions
she put to me (by e mail, requesting replies in the same way)
pre-supposed, by their tone, negative things about my involvement
with the case during the past 18 years. Not one was a positive
question about my work or findings, my views about the case,
etc. Instead they were about why I had allegedly obscurred
documents, given two different dates (Jan and Feb l981) for
first getting involved in the case, a requirement to clarify
exactly who I had and had not spoken with, the implication being
that my comments in my books on this matter are false, and so
on. Bitty, fringe, often trivial things that I knew arose from
the nasty rumours about my association with this case that
certain people (not Georgina) have been spreading around for two
or three years.

As some UK ufologists know, such rumours suggest that I have
lied, mislead people, and even that I fiddled finances to not
pay money due to my colleagues (when in fact the reverse is true
- I gave money out of my own pocket)  Nobody has ever put these
accusations to me directly - despite my asking of these people
that they put up or shut up (i.e. publish evidence of their
claims or stop telling these stories). I know of them via
several friends who had been told this gossip and had warned me
about it. Nobody has as yet dared put anything into print, which
is wise given that the stories are false and some are clearly
defamatory.

The last thing I want to do is get involved in this sort of
messy, disgusting affair as it serves ufology no purpose
whatsoever in my view. This is why I have not made an issue of
it in public for the past three years. So when I got these
questions from Georgina built around some of the same tales
(without clarifying her sources or intent behind asking them) I
decided not to give her quotes for her book. Not because I
dislike her (I don't). Not because I am scared or jealous of her
Rendlesham book (I am neither). Nor because I could not reply to
the questions (I certainly could refute them with documentary
evidence). But because if I gave replies to gossip based
questions regarding untrue and peripheral stories it would stir
up a squabble ufology is better off without. Also all her
readers would see of my connection with this case were the
accusations, my replies to same and so would likely get the
impression my 18 years were riddled with falsity as they would
mostly not be aware of the many other things I have done and
said about the case. There was no question in a positive light
about my research or views on the case to even temper the
effect.

As I have repeatedly said to Georgina I would have willingly
cooperated with her by providing any reasonable data or
answering any balanced questions. But I felt that I could not
respond to what amounted to veiled accusations fuelled by
rumour. I prefered to let my books and articles on the case
stand for themselves as I have always tried to set out what I
had discovered in there, fairly and objectively.

However, given that she might still include the tall tales
somewhere gave me no choice but to register my replies to her
questions with someone. This was merely to demonstrate that I
did have answers to give and could provide them immediately, not
simply come up with them after the fact should the publication
of her book leave me with no choice but to do that. I did this
quietly, with a few people only, asking them not to go public
but to file them away for future reference.

Georgina's questions and my replies to them have not been
published anywhere amd will not be by myself. They were just
lodged in this way for self-keeping. This is what she terms
above the liberty and the public forum. You will have noted that
I deliberately refrained from posting the questions and my
replies to UpDates for you all to see in order to limit the
course I felt I had to take to that described above. I would be
happy to let anyone see my reply, but it did not seem
appropriate to do so in more than the limited sense I have
noted. I had covered myself and that was all I wanted to do.

I took this decision to respknd to the questions in this way and
it was not an easy one. indeed I asked the advice of several
people before doing so. I have no idea why people are coming up
with these tales about my role in this case or to what extent
Georgina is, or is not, taking them seriously. But the fact that
she asked her questions around them was of course disconcerting.

All I know is that for 18 years I have been wrestling with this
complex case trying to figure out what truth lies behind it. I
don't have all the answers but I have gradually felt my way
towards a better grasp of things and tried to convey that
through my books and articles. To the best of my knowledge I
have always done so openly and honestly and been as fair as
possible with all other parties who have been involved. If
Georgina has reason to feel otherwise, I ask her to say so here
and justify those claims with evidence rather than allusions to
unproven tales and rumours.


Best wishes,






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                         Re: Nick Pope's Weird World

From: Rory Lushman <Oubliette@currantbun.com>
Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 23:14:37 +0100
Fwd Date: Tue, 03 Aug 1999 13:52:45 -0400
Subject: Re: Nick Pope's Weird World


 >From: Georgina Bruni <georgina@easynet.co.uk>
 >Date: Sun, 01 Aug 1999 18:25:02 +0100
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
 >Subject: Re: Nick Pope's Weird World

 >Re: My forthcoming book:

 >Rory. your comments are noted. I have e-mailed Jenny Randles
 >privately with regard to her taking the liberty of posting
 >details of a "private e-mail" communication onto a public forum.

Its common knowledge your writing a book, isn't it?

 >You talk of gossip - there has been more gossip (including that
 >which you yourself have posted here) about my forthcoming book
 >on the Rendlesham Forest incident. But the truth is, that none
 >of you gossip mongers have a clue about its contents and will
 >probably get the shock of your lives when you do find out. And I
 >assure you there is no gossip within these pages, in fact, I
 >think one of the things which will become evident, is the
 >exposure of gossip and rumour which has been prominent in this
 >case. It takes a good gossip columnist to spot the nonsense, you
 >know!

A case of the pot calling the kettle black. She openly writes a
gossip column and I comment on it and that makes me a gossip.
Twisted logic. Would you like to repeat the gossip I am supposed
to have touted. You mix up statements, I said your bulletins
were based on gossip, when did I say that about your book.

 >Rory, I suggest you go away and come back when the book is
 >published, you can criticise it as much as you like then.
 >Meanwhile, you nor anyone else can possibly know its contents,
 >even the title is top secret.


I'll never sleep not knowing the title, go on tell
me....zzzzzzzzzzzz.

I think you are you are twisting facts and manipulating
statements to suit your own ends.

 >Now there's a thought to play with


I got bored playing with that thought and went to play with my
action man.


Actually I was being kind when I said it was a gossip magazine.
What I really should have said was that its contents are not in
keeping with its title, "Hot Gossip". Its very tepid gossip and
yawn inspiring stuff.

Rory Lushman






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                        Nostra Damas Was _Not_ Wrong!

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 12:48:26 EDT
Fwd Date: Tue, 03 Aug 1999 12:46:45 -0400
Subject: Nostra Damas Was _Not_ Wrong!


There has been some blather and rant of late that Cosa Nostra -
Nuestra Dames, Nosradamas, goofed about August and Cassini.
Well, when the boys from Mongo arrived here for their weekly ton
of Gripple order, along with the extra gross of both Julio, Jr.
and Pia anatomically correct blow up dolls. They (being from
another dimension an' all) informed us that in the 11th
dimension, Cassini crashed into Brooklyn, disgorging all of it's
Latimum (that is what they call "plutonium" on Mongo) in a huge
explosion. All life within the planet's borders, which included
Canal Street and Washington AC/DC, was destroyed.  It is
expected that 95% of the planet's lifeforms will die within
several muffles (their equivalent of several years).

Also, in the 13th dimension, a great Satan, as the comet Elvis
was referred to being, slammed into the earth at ludicrous speed
and destroyed all life.  Only some old man, a baby and the
government at their underground HQ survived. It was noted by the
Mongolians, that the old guy had been squeezing and drinking
left over Gripple grappa and feeding it to the baby, who was
lactose intolerant.

I understand because _I_, am lactose intolerant.  I am also
intolerant of most of you of little faith.

And so, more right-on predictions by the great Nostra Cosa
reigns supreme yet again.  He just got the time/space wrong. Or
did he?

According to the Mongolians, August in this dimension occurs
later than on their own dimension.  They implied that when our
time came, they would be taking our Gripple Works with them on
the mother ship. Stay tuned.  Only on Upchu.... sorry, only on
UPDATES will you get this latest stuff.

Michael Lindemann, eat your heart out!  We scooped you on this
one, didn't we?

Dr. J. Jaime Gesundt, self appointed, self anointed and proud.

PS: I just tried our new Julio, Jr., doll.  And boy are my arms





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                                  Re: IFOs

From: Bobbie Felder <jilain@plinet.com>
Date: Mon, 02 Aug 1999 11:01:20 -0600
Fwd Date: Tue, 03 Aug 1999 12:49:26 -0400
Subject: Re: IFOs


 >Date: Sun, 1 Aug 1999 12:16:41 -0400
 >From: Robert Moore <ENGIMA9@compuserve.com>
 >Subject: Re: IFOs
 >To: UFO Updates <updates@globalserve.net>,


 >Rather than U.K ufology having lost it's way, we U.K researchers
 >often feel that USA researchers have lost their way; the latter
 >seemingly more concerned with how many people "believe" in UFOs
 >rather than WHY they believe in UFOs (to quote just one
 >example)! But, then again, maybe American researchers should
 >start opening their eyes and start noticing the actuality of the
 >psychosocial componants of Ufology, a factor all too blindingly
 >obvious to UK and European UFO researchers.

While I fully understand that learned men and women will
inevitably disagree on data on just about ANY subject, what I
don't understand is this apparent "drawing of battle lines"
between U.K. researchers and U.S.A researchers. Please do
correct me if I am wrong, but as a "lay person" on the outside
looking in, it appears that this attitude of "we are right, you
are wrong, we are more scientific than you are,  our research
methods are better than yours, so there" accomplishes nothing
more than perpetuating the general concensus.....world-wide
concensus, not just local in the USA and UK...that the field
called ufology is nothing more than an Internet-born
money-making farce that has the nerve to try to pass itself off
as a legitimate science.

I base those statements on a couple years of experience actually
talking with the "common people" around the world as well as
conversations with ufologists. These were conversations in
person, via telephone, via IRC, via ICQ, and via email.  Those
who actually do give ufology the credit it is due are a very
small minority in the overall world population.  That would
appear to be the reality of the world we live in.

The field of ufology in general needs some degree of respect
from the general populous before it will be taken seriously by
any of the mainstream scientific and media communities.  I don't
think researchers squabbling among themselves is going to
accomplish that goal.  And if that is not one of the goals of
ufology in general, then I feel there is no hope for the field
to ever move beyond the "fringes" in the mind of John Q. Public.

The "common person" seems to just sit there, waiting for two or
more ufologists to start name-calling and back-biting.  To Mr.
Common Person, that is all the evidence he/she needs to dismiss
the entire field as nothing more than a joke.

My thoughts on the subject, for what its worth......


Bobbie Felder
Denver, CO

jilain@plinet.com
ICQ #7524076
IRC Undernet #Devils_Tower



                   ~~~Tell me not, in mournful numbers,
                        Life is but an empty dream!
                      For the soul is dead that slumbers,
                        And things are not what they seem.~~~








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Aug > Aug 3

                           Re: Arnold Saw Pelicans

From: Asgeir W. Skavhaug <asge-s@online.no>
Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 20:29:39 +0200
Fwd Date: Tue, 03 Aug 1999 12:55:11 -0400
Subject: Re: Arnold Saw Pelicans


 >From: Kathleen Anderson <KAnder6444@aol.com>
 >Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 21:32:59 EDT
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
 >Subject: Re: Kenneth Arnold's 'Flying Discs'

 >>From: Roger Evans >moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
 >>Date: Sat, 24 Jul 1999 21:35:20 +0000
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
 >>Subject: Kenneth Arnold's 'Flying Discs'

 ><snip>

 >>let's face it;
 >>Arnold's stories were so inconsistent that just about anything
 >>could fit the mold, even, I'm sorry to say, Pelicans.


 >Sorry, Rog, I feel like I could possibly get a brain hemmorage
 >over the pelican theory. I can't seem to get it across  that we
 >don't have pelicans in Washington state. Canadian Geese yes,
 >Pelicans no. But you did make a good point that there is some
 >Arnold points that don't fit.

 >To James Easton, perception is a major key with the Arnold case.
 >Its a hard thing to visualize when you are sitting in the UK. A
 >map will never take the place of being at the actual location. I

<snip>

 >I am off again this weekend to Mt. Rainier. I will take plenty
 >of video if anyone is interesting in seeing. Granted I am not
 >totally convinced Arnold had a good perspective of any object
 >near Mt. Baker over 60 miles to the north. It would have to be a
 >large object to see it. Much bigger than a 747!

 >No, I am not the expert here. But I have yet to come across many
 >other people who can  match my hours over the years of sitting,
 >hiking and sleeping on that mountain wondering what Kenneth
 >Arnold did actually see.

 >P.S. But of course I've really enjoyed the debate of it all!!!

 >Kathleen Andersen
 >MUFON State Section Director
 >Seattle
-----------------------------------

 >From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 10:44:11 -0400
 >Fwd Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 15:47:49 -0400


 >Subject: Re: Arnold Saw Pelicans

 >EASTON MAKES GRAB FOR PUBLICITY
 >BECOMES THE LATEST TO BE STUCK TO
 >THE ARNOLD-EXPLANATION-TARBABY

 >James Easton has gone public with his pelican theory.

 >>N E W S  R E L E A S E


 >>Is the 'Flying Saucer' Mystery Finally Solved

 >>On 24 June, 1947, just before 3:00 p.m., private pilot Kenneth
 >>Arnold was flying over the Cascade mountain range in Washington
 >>state, when something caught his eye. To his left and in the
 >>distance was a formation of nine unusual objects which "fluttered
 >>and sailed", their wings occasionally reflecting light from the
 >>afternoon sun.
 >>Arnold noticed that the formation flew like a flock of geese,
 >>however, as it seemed they were too fast for birds, he presumed
 >>these must be a new type of military jet. Arnold reckoned the
 >>aircraft were travelling in excess of 1,000 miles an hour and
 >>later told a fascinated media how the objects flew "like speed
 >>boats on rough water or similar to the tail of a Chinese kite
 >>that I once saw blowing in the wind".

 >>More significantly, he recalled in his subsequent book, 'The
 >>Coming of the Saucers', "As I put it to newsmen in Pendleton,
 >>Oregon, they flew like a saucer would if you skipped it across
 >>the water".

<snip>
------------------------

 >From: Asgeir W. Skavhaug <asge-s@online.no>
 >Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 18:46:42 +0200
 >Fwd Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 20:33:44 -0400
 >Subject: Kenneth Arnold Sighting

 >>From: Asgeir W. Skavhaug <asge-s@online.no>
 >>Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 18:42:04 +0200
 >>Fwd Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 16:17:30 -0400
 >>Subject: Re: Kenneth Arnold Sighting

<snip>

 >>- One of the planes were different from the others. Not much
 >>attention has been paid to this

<snip>

 >The leading craft up in the front of the chain
 >could be a Northrop, tail-less, flying wing construction (an
 >early YB-49 prototype, or scaled model?). (I don't believe very
 >much in the "pelican theory".)


Hi List,

Well, for some reason I just wanted to dig somewhat deeper into
this material and find out something more about the AW pelicans.

About pelicans in the Washington state, the following URL can be
contacted (The Pelican Watch Page):

http://ecocanada.com/seepel/wwwboard.html

So I did, and here's my e-mail:

http://ecocanada.com/seepel/messages/263.html

with the following excerpt:

"I'm wondring whether any of you on this List know if American
White Pelicans are observed in Washington State in May, June,
July? Maybe in the Cascade Mountains, Mt. Baker, etc. How about
30 to 40 years ago? I'm also wondring whether they're flying in
some sort of formation; a chain or step-wise formation, for
instance, with the leader at the front, and higher up than the
others."

Note that I -- with purpose -- when submitting this mail, didn't
mention neither "Mt. Renier", "50 years ago" or "echelon
formation", to avoid any, more direct, links to Arnold's
sighting.



The answer from The Pelican Watch Page was:

http://ecocanada.com/seepel/messages/264.html

with excerpt:

"Hi... yes, AWPs are found in Washington State - your state Fish
and Wildlife people contacted us a few years ago. As about the
movies of them in flight... good idea! we'll work at it, perhaps
not immediately, but soon I hope. Yes, they do fly in formation
normally... undulating "Vs" or "Ls" with the leader flapping
first, and the others following in a sort of wave. These birds
are terrific at rising on thermals, soaring incredibly high
before striking out in their direction of choice.."

Note specifically here that the "undulating" movements in the
air is also a description used by media etc., e.g., "undulating
like a "saucer" skipping over water". Also note that the birds
seem use to shift formation shape, from Vs (like geese) to Ls,
and vice versa. Possibly also forming a long chain.

Further, the following URLs can be checked regarding people's
observations of AWPs across the US:

http://ecocanada.com/seepel/messages/251.html

with the excerpt:

"I saw a flock of about 30 white pelicans circling over my
hometown of Benicia, north of the Carquinez Strait, which is a
bit north and east of the SF Bay. They were gorgeous, bright in
the morning sunlight, and heading south to fly over the water."

(Note specifically their bright appearance in the sun.)

http://ecocanada.com/seepel/messages/246.html

with excerpt:


"On June 5, 99 there was a small flock of white pelicans land on
Navajo Reservoir, in land. The reservoir is approxmitally 50
miles south/east of Durango, Colorado. The flock seemed to be
lead by a beige/brown bird, smaller than the white pelicans,
with a toucan type beak? I am not having any luck locating info
about this flock on the net."

Note that the (most/all of the) flocks seem to be led by a bird
being somewhat different from the others(!)

http://ecocanada.com/seepel/messages/182.html


with excerpt:

"Have been monitoring several hundred white pelicans on wetlands
at the confluence of Mississippi and Illinois rivers. Am curious
as to their flying habits, and have witnessed flocks rising on
air currents and prevailing winds to great heights in a
spiralling fashion sometimes resulting in a retrace of several
miles before gaining sufficient height to continue their flying
course.What height do these magnificent birds reach when
spiraling,it appears to be several thousand feet!"

http://ecocanada.com/seepel/messages/146.html

with excerpts:

"... I love to watch them fly, and would like to learn more
about their habits and flying technique. To me they just seem to
be in love with their fine, graceful art of flying..."


--------

In any case, watching these AWPs seems to be an exciting
experience for everyone!

If Arnold really did meet one of these flocks at Mt. Reinier --
which is regarded as a (very) rare event -- I guess he would
have an exciting experience as well.  (It is also reported that
he had to take an emergency landing with his plane right after
the sighting, because his back became overstressed due to his
movements inside the plane.)

The weather conditions around the higher parts of Mt. Reinier
are often extreme, and fast-changing, and should a flock of
pelicans fly into the frequently occurring high winds, I guess
the flock would change the altitudes quite often, from high
(thousands of feet) to low (hundreds of feet) maybe within few
minutes.



It is clear that the following elements in AWP sightings are in
common with Arnold's sighting:

* AWPs are observed in the Washington state (but, I guess they
were appearing more frequently about 50 years ago than today).

* Everyone -- lucky to watch them -- are excited by their
appearance.

* The pelicans are following the wind speeds (which can be high,
with wind gusts); they're rising on air currents and prevailing
winds to great heights -- to several thousand feet -- along the
mountains; they are terrific at rising on thermals, soaring
incredibly high before striking out in their direction of
choice.

* Their leader usually seems to be different in appearance than
the others.

* They do fly in formation normally... undulating "Vs" (and also
flying like geese) or "Ls" with the leader flapping first, and
the others following in a sort of wave.

* They seem to be synchronized in their flying pattern, also
when diving for food into the water.

* They seem have a bright appearance in the sunshine.


Thus, the pelican theory might hold if we assume that:

* Arnold (significantly) overestimated their formation speed
(but depends on the local wind speeds/gusts, above/along the
mountain sides, that day).

* The size of the individual craft (object) was (significantly)
overestimated; Arnold was actually closer to the objects than
reported.


But this might very well be the case, since he became very
excited as he spotted the objects.


And further, that the following assumptions are valid:

* Arnold lacked money, and saw some business opportunities in
the story after being influenced by the media people. (Very
common these days as well, in connection with UFO reports.)

* Arnold wanted attention and publicity (and maybe this could
positively affect his company). (Very common these days as well,
in connection with UFO reports.)

* Arnold actually did see the objects, but was exaggerating when
talking to the media about the event and the objects'
appearance; he let it sound more of an adventure, perhaps having
in mind the Flash Gordon stories, and the Orson Welles' story on
the radio 10 years earlier. (But I don't think he ever mentioned
the objects as coming from an other world/planet.)


And, after some revisions in my opinions, as more information
has become available -- and also using Occam's razor -- I now
tend to believe that the objects were pelicans in a formation
along the Cascade mountains, and also being aware of that such
an observation event is indeed a (very) rare one in the
Washington state -- maybe much less than once-in-a -lifetime
event.

Sorry, thus it seems that I have shifted my opinion and
subjective judgments regarding the Arnold objects -- from
mechanical objects (craft) to organic ones (AW pelicans).



- The COMING of the PELICANS!


Best regards,

Asgeir





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Aug > Aug 3

             Stephen Basset And Pressures For Congressional Ufo

From: Giuliano Marinkovicc <9a4ag@clarc.org>
Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 13:35:51 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 03 Aug 1999 12:59:31 -0400
Subject: Stephen Basset And Pressures For Congressional Ufo


Sent by:

AGETI
Analytical Group For Extra-Terrestrial Information

AGETI SSI Project
section for searching and intercepting

Edited By: Ageti_Master 9A4Ag Giuliano Marinkovicc

==========================================================================

Greetings to all of you out there who are trying to solve the controversy
inside ufology once for all! I have been awake at 04 hours today 2nd of
August 1999. (CET time) in the morning to wait for Stephen Basset but it was
good job. I had great oportunity to ask mr. Stephen personaly some questions
at IRC. He is ufologist from Washington D.C. who is lobbying towards political
communitiy with a goal of UFO disclosure and to open hearings inside american
Congress connected with the witnessess from NASA and military intelligence
community who are ready to talk in front of the Congress about their UFO
knowledge.

My questions directly pointed to him were:

<^-AGETI-^> stephen: How the loby projects are getting through the American
             Congress...is there any interest presented by the Congress to hold
             hearings and can we find key political person like Stephen Schiff
             in the past who could start the chain reaction?
<^-AGETI-^> stephen: How many key witnessess from military intelligence
             community and astronauts does project have to present in front of
             the Congress and are there any key witnessess connected with the
             crashed saucers (if there was any)?
<^-AGETI-^> Stephen: Are there any interests by the loby project in getting
             the international UFO military witnessess and present them in
             front of the Congress too to show the world wide pattern?
<^-AGETI-^> stephen: Besides Edgar Mitchell and Gordon Cooper are there any
             more mainstream astronauts who are ready to talk?
<^-AGETI-^> stephen: Are you aware of the Jimmy's Carter stand towards the
             pressure for Congressional Hearing..will he give maybe his
             contribution because he and Gerald Ford have tried similuar stuff
             before?
<^-AGETI-^> stephen: Besides the testimonies is there any physical evidence
             that it will be presented in hearings and what are they if it is
             any?
<^-AGETI-^> stephen: Have you contacted professor Peter Sturrock from
             Standford University to help the project with his conclusions also
             because he has issued a report in June 1998 (picked up by
             mainstream media) that UFO's have physical impact at the
             surroundings and that kills the blue book?
<^-AGETI-^> stephen: Do you have any contact with Chilean UFO Air Force
             Comission and have you heard for the new report about UFO's
             released few weeks ago in France and is that going to help
             pressure in US?

==========================================================================

His answers at this important questions you may find in the trancript of
the whole section of the conversation at the IRC.
The name of the server is: irc.msn.com channel #briefing
The aproximate time of the beggining:  17:10 PT - 01:10 UTC - 03:10 CET
The end of the conversation: 18:36 PT - 02:26 UTC - 04:36 CET

My nick on the channel was "^-AGETI-^"

Important nick on the channel also is "Rebecca_UFO". She is the leader of
the section "Politics and UFO's" at irc.msn.com and she is the
co-ordinator of the conversation and she is controling the questions.

The nick of the Stephen is of course "Stephen\bBasset"

The mark in the transcript "*nick*" means that someone has contacted me
in the PRIVATE mode and that only I can see on the channel.

The mark "<^-AGETI-^> -> *nick*" means that I am contacting someone else
in the PRIVATE mode and that nobody can see on the channel besides me
and contacted person.

The other lines are open traffic on the channel and everyone can see it.

For more informations about this chats go to:
http://communities.msn.com/UFO

I am sending the trancript in UU format...To convert it you must have
UUDOS software (uuenview.exe uudeview.exe) or similuar. When you
converte file you will get ZIP.file and after you unzip you will have
TXT extension. If there is going to be problems with decoding please
contact me at: 9a4ag@clarc.org

Here it is; the whole trancript:


_=_
_=_ Part 001 of 001 of file stepheng.zip
_=_


[] stepheng.zip


==========================================================================
AGETI - WORLD WIDE HAMRADIO GROUP
ANALYTICAL GROUP FOR EXTRA-TERRESTRIAL INFORMATION
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
AGETI_MASTER:                        |  POST ADDRESS:
9A4AG - GIULIANO MARINKOVICC - JIMMY |  ANTE STARCHEVICCA 25/C
                                      |  23000 ZADAR
                                      |  CROATIA, EUROPE
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
TELEPHONE:                           |  PACKET RADIO ADDRESS:
for international calls:             |  9A4AG@9A0YSI.SBK.HRV.EU
+385-23-430-970                      |
                                      |  E-MAIL ADDRESS:
for calls inside Croatia:            |  9a4ag@s55tcp.ampr.org
023/430-970                          |  or
                                      |  9a4ag@9a0tcp.ampr.org
                                      |  or
                                      |  9a4ag@clarc.org
                                      |
                                      |  AGETI E-MAIL LIST: (croatian language)
                                      |  ageti@sdf.lonestar.org
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
INTERACTIVE CONFERENCE MODE  |  9A4AG's and AGETI HOME PAGE:
                              |  http://www.clarc.org/~9a4ag
AMPRn WW UFO channel 1947    |
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
AGETI IS A GROUP OF RADIO-AMATEURS WHO ARE EXCHANGING WORLD WIDE
INFORMATION, VIEWS AND NEWS ABOUT THE EXTRA-TERRESTIRAL SUBJECT!!!
==========================================================================


==========================================================================

SPECIAL AGETI_MASTER REPORT:





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Aug > Aug 3

                        Re: Sheffield UFO Incident 2?

From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 23:49:29 +0100
Fwd Date: Tue, 03 Aug 1999 14:04:04 -0400
Subject: Re: Sheffield UFO Incident 2?


 >From: Pat McCartney <ElPatricio@aol.com>
 >Date: Sat, 31 Jul 1999 02:51:12 EDT
 >Subject: Re: Sheffield UFO Incident 2?
 >To: updates@globalserve.net

 >>Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 20:58:59 +0100
 >>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
 >>Subject: Re: Sheffield UFO Incident 2?
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>

 >>Witnesses in a court trial are usually dealing with events we
 >>know can happen. Houses do get burgled. People do get murdered.
 >>Fraudsters do rob unsuspecting marks. The evidence sought here
 >>is to determine how plausible it is that a particular
 >>individual commited any of these acts. However a case in which
 >>I claimed that you teleported yourself into my house in the
 >>middle of the night and stole my video recorder might not be so
 >>straightforward. If I produced someone who saw you actually
 >>disappearing through the house wall and appearing a few moments
 >>later with the said video in your hand, that wirness might just
 >>get as tough a ride as abductee witnesses get from the
 >>sceptics.

 >Do you realize how ethnocentric your comparison is? Do you
 >honestly believe that humanity has reached the apex of
 >technological development, and that cultures which may have
 >existed for thousands or _millions_ of years longer than ours
 >may not have developed a trick or two that would seem magical to
 >us? Like muskets would seem to the Aztecs? Like cellular biology
 >would seem to medieval blood-letters? Or a Harrier jump jet to
 >the Roman legions?

The cellular biology bit might be tricky, but the principles of
muskets and jump-jets could be explained to any reasonably
intelligent person through simple demonstrations of force and
reaction. I'm not saying an Aztec or an ancient Roman would then
be able to go ahead and build one (nor could you and I) but they
would be able to see pretty clearly that this wasn't magic.
Tribespeople in Papua New Guinea have managed to move from
dug-out canoes to piloting jets in a single lifetime - aren't
you the one being a bit ethnocentric here?

 >Perhaps lack of evidence is not the problem for you. Perhaps
 >it's a lack of imagination.

 >Comtemplating the breadth of the universe and the ability of
 >life to survive no, _thrive_ in environments that humans would
 >find deadly, most people, scientists included, now realize life
 >is probably common throughout our galaxy.

By no means all scientists, and even so, so what?

 >What we "know can happen" is culturally determined, and the
 >cumulative testimony of UFO witnesses suggests our definition
 >is, shall we say, a trifle limited. To paraphrase Thomas Huxley,
 >we must sit before human testimony like a child before coming to
 >grips with the UFO phenomenom.

More cultural relativism. If I were to push you hard against a
brick wall I doubt if you would go through it unharmed. More
likely you would suffer a bloody nose and serious bruising - all
"culturally determined", no doubt! What you are talking about
here is "magic". In the world of magic people can walk through
walls, the laws of physics can be suspended, the law of gravity
can be overturned as easyily as a disputed parking ticket.

If the aliens can do _anything_ because their cultures have
existed thousands of millions  of year longer than ours, then
they have become supernatural beings beyond the range of any
rational scientific discussion. They are beyond dispute, they
are beyond evidence. We may as well pack up and go home, for any
evidence we find, pro or con, is worthless. We've already seen
someone on this list proclaming that the aliens must be real,
and must be pretty damn clever beacause they've been so
effective in hiding the evidence for their existence. >
 >Incidentally, we were speaking of UFOs, not accounts of
 >abductions, which by their nature often do not lend themselves
 >to multiple witnesses or radar corroboration.

Which is all the more remarkable when they conduct these
abductions over major cities and are only witnessed by a few,
carefully selected individuals. But hey... it's magic!






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Aug > Aug 3

                                  Re: IFOs

From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 23:27:55 +0100
Fwd Date: Tue, 03 Aug 1999 14:08:56 -0400
Subject: Re: IFOs


 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
 >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >Subject: Re: IFOs
 >Date: Sat, 31 Jul 99 10:27:32 PDT

 >>Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 22:43:35 +0100
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
 >>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
 >>Subject: Re: IFOs

 >>So basically, to reject a workable scientific model of the
 >>universe on the basis of a series of contentious and
 >>questionable narratives, is iconoclastic and by inference a good
 >>thing; continuing to doubt the literal validity of these reports
 >>because there is no convincing evidence behind them, is being
 >>safe and unheretical and fearful of the riducule of the
 >>establishment.

 >It's precisely this sort of self-righteous posturing

You're the expert, Jerry...

 >that helps
 >make us American ufologists so deeply skeptical of the theories
 >of English majors and librarians about UFOs. Yet one more reason
 >I am proud not to be a pelicanist, or psychosociologist, or
 >whatever the proper name for your continuing exercise in
 >ridicule-avoidance.

What's all this about "ridicule avoidance"? Do you seriously
think that I and other sceptical ufologists (not just in
Britain, by the way) have adopted our views just to placate some
mysterious group of people who apparently have nothing better to
do that go around jeering at a random collection of UFOs? It's
flattering to imagine that the scientific establishment thinks
I'm worth a good belly-laugh, and if so I'm delighted to be able
to add to the gaity of nations. No, sorry to tell you this
Jerry, because it is such a delightful idea, but I, and the
other "pelicanists" I know (by the way be careful about using
that word next time you're in the UK) actaully came to our
current viewpoints by actually studying the evidence and not
bothering too much about what our elders and betters might
think. > >There is, of course, "convincing evidence" for the
existence of >anomalous UFOs, though no one would know that from
reading >Magonia.

Then you don't read it very well. We have never denied that
there are anomalous UFOs. We just don't automatically jump to
the conclusion that they are physical spacecraft.

 >Maybe you think that grand rhetorical gestures will
 >drive the heresies (and the heretics) from the temple. There
 >must be _some_ rational explanation for strange allegations like
 >yours.  You should, however, save them for the rubes.  The
 >people on this list are better informed than that.

Sorry, but I just can't understand what on earth you're
rabbitting on about here - my loss, I'm sure.

 >The rest of you are referred to the UFO literature.  For some
 >convincingly documented cases which have stubbornly withstood
 >the assaults of pelicanists, see The UFO Encyclopedia, 2nd Ed.,
 >on the Coyne CE2 (254-57), Portland County Sightings (719-27),
 >RB-47 case (761-90), or the Socorro CE2/CE3 (856-67).  To cite
 >just a very small number.

Ah, ha! So finally you've listed your "best cases"! After about
a year of asking.

 >Amusingly, no less than the eminent
 >historian of astronomy Steven Dick recently stated (at a private
 >gathering of UFO historians held

- in a telephone booth? -

 >in Chicago late this past May)
 >that "evidence" in science is always a matter of dispute and
 >negotiation; he went on to say that ufologists' evidence is
 >entirely reasonable in that context (the history of scientific
 >disputation), and he said what we're doing is well worth doing.

Very amusing. Bet you didn't pin him down and ask him if he
thought UFOs were extraterrestrial spacecraft, though, did you?
This strikes me as the sort of nice non-committal statement that
a polite guest at a private gathering would say. I wonder just
how much negotiation is possible about, say, the second law of
thermodynamics? I fact, on re- reading it the statement seems to
reflect a sort of post-modernist cultural relativism normally
associated with French philosophers and, erm, English majors.

 >Asked why he believed in one controversial phenomenon, which
 >skeptics have charged is based solely on misidenti- fications
 >and hoaxes, a scientist of world-class reputation has stated the
 >following:

 >"Though ... I have never seen the phenomenon personally, I feel
 >that there is no question that [this phenomenon] exists. I have
 >talked to six eyewitnesses of the phenomena and think there is
 >no reasonable doubt as to the authenticity of their
 >observations.

"No doubt"? How remarkable.

 >Furthermore, the reports are all remarkably
 >similar and have common features with the hundreds of
 >observations that appear in the literature."

Yes, just like the hundreds of ghost stories, encounters with
Satan, messages from spirits, memories of past lives, etc.,
etc., etc. This is just the old "I can get it for you wholesale"
school of research, where we are meant to be impressed by the
sheer number reports.

 >What a dope.  Obviously, this true believer has never read The
 >UFO Handbook or Magonia,

I'm puzzled. Are you comparing The UFO Handbook to Magonia, as
two "pelicanist" publications, and suggesting that the Handbook
dismisses UFO reports with "grand rhetorical gestures?

 >Long live the iconoclasm of American ufology, and long may it
 >thrive.  Too bad British ufology -- or at least that end of it
 >that's wandering aimlessly through the library stacks -- has
 >lost its way.

Jerry, go to your local library (I suppose they do have one in
Canby), get a card, talk to the librarians. They are quiet,
gentle people who will treat you kindly, and help you to get
over this crippling fear you have of my respected profession. We
only really get threatening if you keep your books overdue!

 >David Hufford's more scholarly The Terror
 >That Comes in the Night, for example, does not deal specifically
 >with UFO reports (though they are mentioned), but it amounts to
 >a powerful refutation of some of Handbook's more disputable
 >assertions -- i.e., the ones particularly beloved of
 >pelicanists.

I agree with you about Hufford. He makes the important point
that the "Old Hag" stories collected by folklorists and others
in Newfoundland were being treated as collections of stories,
and no-one was seriously entertaining the possibility that these
stories represented actual events being reported by the people
who had experienced them. Totally valid and very relevant to the
UFO phenomenon. It is also a point I made in my article "The UFO
is alive and well and living in Fairyland":

"When attempting explanations for fairy(s), monster(s) and other
traditional entities, folklore students have thought in terms of
historical traditions, literay analogues and tribal ritual. They
have all but ignored the possibilit that people did, and often
still do, actually *see* these things." Pretty much Hufford's
point, I think, but made in 1970, twelve years before
publication of The Terror that Comes in the Night.

 >>The point is that a lot has changed in ufology on both sides of
 >>the Atlantic since those heady days in the seventies. And the
 >>way American ufology has gone has been away from those landmark
 >>publications, whereas in Euroland many of us have tended to
 >>stick closer to the ideas of these great American pioneers.

 >Like, you mean, Keyhoe, Hall, McDonald, Davis, Bloecher, Hynek,
 >Webb, and all those other psychosocial theorists?

The great American pioneers I was thinking of were Hendry... and
you. But as they say, the prophet is without honour in his own





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   Aug > Aug 3

                        Re: Sheffield UFO Incident 2?

From: Josh Goldstein <clearlt@pacbell.net>
Date: Tue, 03 Aug 1999 03:21:40 -0700
Fwd Date: Tue, 03 Aug 1999 14:12:39 -0400
Subject: Re: Sheffield UFO Incident 2?


 >Date: Sun, 1 Aug 1999 15:36:22 -0400
 >From: Tony Spurrier <TSpurrier@compuserve.com>
 >Subject: Re: Sheffield UFO Incident 2?
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>

<snip>

 >I have been studying aspects of the subconscious mind, and I
 >don't mean hypnotism. The mind is very suggestible and I could
 >show you some astounding feats that are possible simply by
 >talking directly to the subconscious. Some of the
 >synchronicities in ufology, like the one you mention above,
 >could be realised through a degree of suggestibility. It's just
 >something I think we need to bear in mind, but I'm not saying it
 >accounts for your experience.

 >Marc, I have only used the sightings you mention as examples,
 >and I'm not directing my opinion at you, but discussing the way
 >forward to make evidence of UFOs more acceptable.


Tony,

Please describe your "astounding feats that are possible simply
by talking directly to the subconsious."

Thanks,






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   Aug > Aug 3

                              Re: Bang a Gong?

From: Josh Goldstein <clearlt@pacbell.net>
Date: Tue, 03 Aug 1999 03:25:22 -0700
Fwd Date: Tue, 03 Aug 1999 14:14:38 -0400
Subject: Re: Bang a Gong?


 >Date: Sun, 01 Aug 1999 13:52:33 -0400
 >From: Mike Hallal <mhallal9@idt.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
 >Subject: Bang a Gong?

 >Any reports on NASA also measuring the lunar "vibrations" when
 >Prospector went bang?

 >Is the Honeymooner's mascot "still ringing"?

 >Or is the hollow/cavernous mooncore theory a load of cheese?

Mike,

Go ask Alice.

Josh






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   Aug > Aug 3

                        'UFOINFO' Surveillance Van!?

From: John Hayes <ufoinfo@ukgateway.net>
Date: Tue, 03 Aug 1999 12:11:19 +0100
Fwd Date: Tue, 03 Aug 1999 12:44:43 -0400
Subject: 'UFOINFO' Surveillance Van!?


Dear Errol and List Members,

A week or two ago I received a message from someone telling me
that they had seen a 'surveillance' van with aerials and wanted
to know if there was UFO activity in their area.

After asking for more details they said the van had the UFOINFO
web site address on the side - As most of you probably know I am
in the UK, and have no knowledge of this van.

Unfortunately I do not have the original message as I thought
nothing more of it, but the reply is as follows:


Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 20:47:48 -0500
To: webmaster@ufoinfo.com
Subject: Marked Van in Ft Wayne, In

John,

I came across the Web page after my wife saw a van in Ft Wayne
with an antenna marked with your web page.  I am bookmarking
your web page.  I actually have a couple interesting UFO stories
myself-including 2 friends working at Area 51.  I just wondered
if there was a particular reason the van was in Ft Wayne last
week.

Chris
=====

Then on Saturday I found the following in my mail:

Date: Sat, 31 Jul 1999 21:47:58 -0700
To: webmaster@ufoinfo.com
Subject: Warsaw Indiana

I spotted a ufoinfo van here in my town, Warsaw Indiana. It had
Georgia plates on it. I spotted it this morning. I was curious
to what it was doing clear up here.

Thanks!

PS, NICE SITE!!!


B White
=======

At one point I thought the van might belong to Joseph Trainor
but he has just replied and said it is not his.

If anyone knows anything about the van I would be interested in
knowing - I just hope it is a 'fan' of the site.

Thanks in advance,

John Hayes

ufoinfo@ukgateway.net
webmaster@ufoinfo.com

UFOINFO:- http://ufoinfo.com

Archives for UFO Roundup/Filer's Files/UK UFO Network Bulletin/





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   Aug > Aug 3

                            Technowars & ECHELON

From: "Cathy Johnson" <cej@idirect.ca>
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 10:04:32 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 03 Aug 1999 13:16:04 -0400
Subject: Technowars & ECHELON


ILETS

DIRT

ECHELON

ENCRYPTION/HACKER/VIRUS WARS


Privacy and Free Speech take a back seat


The following series of articles, posts and commentaries are in
reverse order, from the latest news to the origin of our
following this on going tale of intrigue, espionage and the
trampling of civil liberties on a global scale. This is one
story that the Ameri-Advocate has not only pursued from its
discovery in mid 1998 but we have also unfortunately been
victims of this electronic conflict along with, now millions of
others. If you are new to this tale then please proceed to the
bottom of this page and work your way up. Once caught up I'm
sure your going to want to come back often to catch the latest
on this series.

A late breaking item,... for a complete breakdown on these
technologies, the history and the agencies behind them, please
click over to "Interception Tech 2000" If you thought we were
joking all this time I promise you, after you read this site
you'll realize exactly far this has gone and how long its been
in the making.


Ellis




From: Zombie Cow <waste@zor.hut.fi>

From: Anonymous <nobody@neuropa.net>
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Exposing the Global Surveillance System (Lengthy)

EXPOSING THE GLOBAL SURVEILLANCE SYSTEM

by Nicky Hager

In the late 1980s, in a decision it probably regrets, the US
prompted New Zealand to join a new and highly secret global
intelligence system. Hager's investigation into it and his
discovery of the ECHELON dictionary has revealed one of the
world's biggest, most closely held intelligence projects. the
system allows spy agencies to monitor most of the world's
telephone, e-mail, and telex communications.

For 40 years, New Zealand's largest intelligence agency, the
Government Communications Security Bureau (GCSB) the nation's
equivalent of the US National Security Agency (NSA) had been
helping its Western allies to spy on countries throughout the
Pacific region, without the knowledge of the New Zealand public
or many of its highest elected officials. What the NSA did not
know is that by the late 1980s, various intelligence staff had
decided these activities had been too secret for too long, and
were providing me with interviews and documents exposing New
Zealand's intelligence activities. Eventually, more than 50
people who work or have worked in intelligence and related
fields agreed to be interviewed.

The activities they described made it possible to document,
from the South Pacific, some alliance-wide systems and projects
which have been kept secret elsewhere. Of these, by far the most
important is ECHELON.

Designed and coordinated by NSA, the ECHELON system is used to
intercept ordinary e-mail, fax, telex, and telephone
communications carried over the world's telecommunications
networks. Unlike many of the electronic spy systems developed
during the Cold War, ECHELON is designed primarily for
non-military targets: governments, organizations, businesses,
and individuals in virtually every country. It potentially
affects every person communicating between (and sometimes
within) countries anywhere in the world.

It is, of course, not a new idea that intelligence
organizations tap into e-mail and other public
telecommunications networks. What was new in the material leaked
by the New Zealand intelligence staff was precise information on
where the spying is done, how the system works, its capabilities
and shortcomings, and many details such as the codenames.

The ECHELON system is not designed to eavesdrop on a particular
individual's e-mail or fax link. Rather, the system works by
indiscriminately intercepting very large quantities of
communications and using computers to identify and extract
messages of interest from the mass of unwanted ones. A chain of
secret interception facilities has been established around the
world to tap into all the major components of the international
telecommunications networks. Some monitor communications
satellites, others land-based communications networks, and
others radio communications. ECHELON links together all these
facilities, providing the US and its allies with the ability to
intercept a large proportion of the communications on the
planet.

The computers at each station in the ECHELON network
automatically search through the millions of messages
intercepted for ones containing pre-programmed keywords.
Keywords include all the names, localities, subjects, and so on
that might be mentioned. Every word of every message intercepted
at each station gets automatically searched whether or not a
specific telephone number or e-mail address is on the list. The
thousands of simultaneous messages are read in "real time" as
they pour into the station, hour after hour, day after day, as
the computer finds intelligence needles in telecommunications
haystacks.

SOMEONE IS LISTENING The computers in stations around the globe
are known, within the network, as the ECHELON Dictionaries.
Computers that can automatically search through traffic for
keywords have existed since at least the 1970s, but the ECHELON
system was designed by NSA to interconnect all these computers
and allow the stations to function as components of an
integrated whole. The NSA and GCSB are bound together under the
five-nation UKUSA signals intelligence agreement. The other
three partners all with equally obscure names are the
Government Communications Headquarters (GCHQ) in Britain, the
Communications Security Establishment (CSE) in Canada, and the
Defense Signals Directorate (DSD) in Australia.

The alliance, which grew from cooperative efforts during World
War II to intercept radio transmissions, was formalized into the
UKUSA agreement in 1948 and aimed primarily against the USSR.
The five UKUSA agencies are today the largest intelligence
organizations in their respective countries. With much of the
world's business occurring by fax, e-mail, and phone, spying on
these communications receives the bulk of intelligence
resources. For decades before the introduction of the ECHELON
system, the UKUSA allies did intelligence collection operations
for each other, but each agency usually processed and analyzed
the intercept from its own stations.

Under ECHELON, a particular station's Dictionary computer
contains not only its parent agency's chosen keywords, but also
has lists entered in for other agencies. In New Zealand's
satellite interception station at Waihopai (in the South
Island), for example, the computer has separate search lists for
the NSA, GCHQ, DSD, and CSE in addition to its own. Whenever the
Dictionary encounters a message containing one of the agencies'
keywords, it automatically picks it and sends it directly to the
headquarters of the agency concerned. No one in New Zealand
screens, or even sees, the intelligence collected by the New
Zealand station for the foreign agencies. Thus, the stations of
the junior UKUSA allies function for the NSA no differently than
if they were overtly NSA-run bases located on their soil.

The first component of the ECHELON network are stations
specifically targeted on the international telecommunications
satellites (Intelsats) used by the telephone companies of most
countries. A ring of Intelsats is positioned around the world,
stationary above the equator, each serving as a relay station
for tens of thousands of simultaneous phone calls, fax, and
e-mail. Five UKUSA stations have been established to intercept
the communications carried by the Intelsats.

The British GCHQ station is located at the top of high cliffs
above the sea at Morwenstow in Cornwall. Satellite dishes beside
sprawling operations buildings point toward Intelsats above the
Atlantic, Europe, and, inclined almost to the horizon, the
Indian Ocean. An NSA station at Sugar Grove, located 250
kilometers southwest of Washington, DC, in the mountains of West
Virginia, covers Atlantic Intelsats transmitting down toward
North and South America. Another NSA station is in Washington
State, 200 kilometers southwest of Seattle, inside the Army's
Yakima Firing Center. Its satellite dishes point out toward the
Pacific Intelsats and to the east. *1

The job of intercepting Pacific Intelsat communications that
cannot be intercepted at Yakima went to New Zealand and
Australia. Their South Pacific location helps to ensure global
interception. New Zealand provides the station at Waihopai and
Australia supplies the Geraldton station in West Australia
(which targets both Pacific and Indian Ocean Intelsats). *2

Each of the five stations' Dictionary computers has a codename
to distinguish it from others in the network. The Yakima
station, for instance, located in desert country between the
Saddle Mountains and Rattlesnake Hills, has the COWBOY
Dictionary, while the Waihopai station has the FLINTLOCK
Dictionary. These codenames are recorded at the beginning of
every intercepted message, before it is transmitted around the
ECHELON network, allowing analysts to recognize at which
station the interception occurred.

New Zealand intelligence staff has been closely involved with
the NSA's Yakima station since 1981, when NSA pushed the GCSB to
contribute to a project targeting Japanese embassy
communications. Since then, all five UKUSA agencies have been
responsible for monitoring diplomatic cables from all Japanese
posts within the same segments of the globe they are assigned
for general UKUSA monitoring.3 Until New Zealand's integration
into ECHELON with the opening of the Waihopai station in 1989,
its share of the Japanese communications was intercepted at
Yakima and sent unprocessed to the GCSB headquarters in
Wellington for decryption, translation, and writing into
UKUSA-format intelligence reports (the NSA provides the
codebreaking programs).

"COMMUNICATION" THROUGH SATELLITES The next component of the
ECHELON system intercepts a range of satellite communications
not carried by Intelsat.In addition to the UKUSA stations
targeting Intelsat satellites, there are another five or more
stations homing in on Russian and other regional communications
satellites. These stations are Menwith Hill in northern England;
Shoal Bay, outside Darwin in northern Australia (which targets
Indonesian satellites); Leitrim, just south of Ottawa in Canada
(which appears to intercept Latin American satellites); Bad
Aibling in Germany; and Misawa in northern Japan.

A group of facilities that tap directly into land-based
telecommunications systems is the final element of the ECHELON
system. Besides satellite and radio, the other main method of
transmitting large quantities of public, business, and
government communications is a combination of water cables under
the oceans and microwave networks over land. Heavy cables, laid
across seabeds between countries, account for much of the
world's international communications. After they come out of the
water and join land-based microwave networks they are very
vulnerable to interception. The microwave networks are made up
of chains of microwave towers relaying messages from hilltop to
hilltop (always in line of sight) across the countryside. These
networks shunt large quantities of communications across a
country. Interception of them gives access to international
undersea communications (once they surface) and to international
communication trunk lines across continents. They are also an
obvious target for large-scale interception of domestic
communications.

Because the facilities required to intercept radio and
satellite communications use large aerials and dishes that are
difficult to hide for too long, that network is reasonably well
documented. But all that is required to intercept land-based
communication networks is a building situated along the
microwave route or a hidden cable running underground from the
legitimate network into some anonymous building, possibly far
removed. Although it sounds technically very difficult,
microwave interception from space by United States spy
satellites also occurs.4 The worldwide network of facilities to
intercept these communications is largely undocumented, and
because New Zealand's GCSB does not participate in this type of
interception, my inside sources could not help either.

NO ONE IS SAFE FROM A MICROWAVE A 1994 expos of the Canadian
UKUSA agency, Spyworld, co-authored by one of its former staff,
Mike Frost, gave the first insights into how a lot of foreign
microwave interception is done (see p. 18). It described UKUSA
"embassy collection" operations, where sophisticated receivers
and processors are secretly transported to their countries'
overseas embassies in diplomatic bags and used to monitor
various communications in foreign capitals. *5

Since most countries' microwave networks converge on the
capital city, embassy buildings can be an ideal site. Protected
by diplomatic privilege, they allow interception in the heart of
the target country. *6 The Canadian embassy collection was
requested by the NSA to fill gaps in the American and British
embassy collection operations, which were still occurring in
many capitals around the world when Frost left the CSE in 1990.
Separate sources in Australia have revealed that the DSD also
engages in embassy collection. *7 On the territory of UKUSA
nations, the interception of land-based telecommunications
appears to be done at special secret intelligence facilities.
The US, UK, and Canada are geographically well placed to
intercept the large amounts of the world's communications that
cross their territories.

The only public reference to the Dictionary system anywhere in
the world was in relation to one of these facilities, run by the
GCHQ in central London. In 1991, a former British GCHQ official
spoke anonymously to Granada Television's World in Action about
the agency's abuses of power. He told the program about an
anonymous red brick building at 8 Palmer Street where GCHQ
secretly intercepts every telex which passes into, out of, or
through London, feeding them into powerful computers with a
program known as "Dictionary." The operation, he explained, is
staffed by carefully vetted British Telecom people: "It's
nothing to do with national security. It's because it's not
legal to take every single telex. And they take everything: the
embassies, all the business deals, even the birthday greetings,
they take everything. They feed it into the Dictionary." *8 What
the documentary did not reveal is that Dictionary is not just a
British system; it is UKUSA-wide.

Similarly, British researcher Duncan Campbell has described how
the US Menwith Hill station in Britain taps directly into the
British Telecom microwave network, which has actually been
designed with several major microwave links converging on an
isolated tower connected underground into the station.9

The NSA Menwith Hill station, with 22 satellite terminals and
more than 4.9 acres of buildings, is undoubtedly the largest and
most powerful in the UKUSA network. Located in northern England,
several thousand kilometers from the Persian Gulf, it was
awarded the NSA's "Station of the Year" prize for 1991 after its
role in the Gulf War. Menwith Hill assists in the interception
of microwave communications in another way as well, by serving
as a ground station for US electronic spy satellites. These
intercept microwave trunk lines and short range communications
such as military radios and walkie talkies. Other ground
stations where the satellites' information is fed into the
global network are Pine Gap, run by the CIA near Alice Springs
in central Australia and the Bad Aibling station in Germany. *10
Among them, the various stations and operations making up the
ECHELON network tap into all the main components of the world's
telecommunications networks. All of them, including a separate
network of stations that intercepts long distance radio
communications, have their own Dictionary computers connected
into ECHELON.

In the early 1990s, opponents of the Menwith Hill station
obtained large quantities of internal documents from the
facility. Among the papers was a reference to an NSA computer
system called Platform. The integration of all the UKUSA station
computers into ECHELON probably occurred with the introduction
of this system in the early 1980s. James Bamford wrote at that
time about a new worldwide NSA computer network codenamed
Platform "which will tie together 52 separate computer systems
used throughout the world. Focal point, or `host environment,'
for the massive network will be the NSA headquarters at Fort
Meade. Among those included in Platform will be the British
SIGINT organization, GCHQ." *11

LOOKING IN THE DICTIONARY The Dictionary computers are
connected via highly encrypted UKUSA communications that link
back to computer data bases in the five agency headquarters.
This is where all the intercepted messages selected by the
Dictionaries end up. Each morning the specially "indoctrinated"
signals intelligence analysts in Washington, Ottawa,Cheltenham,
Canberra, and Wellington log on at their computer terminals and
enter the Dictionary system. After keying in their security
passwords, they reach a directory that lists the different
categories of intercept available in the data bases, each with
a four-digit code. For instance, 1911 might be Japanese
diplomatic cables from Latin America (handled by the Canadian
CSE), 3848 might be political communications from and about
Nigeria, and 8182 might be any messages about distribution of
encryption technology.

They select their subject category, get a "search result"
showing how many messages have been caught in the ECHELON net on
that subject, and then the day's work begins. Analysts scroll
through screen after screen of intercepted faxes, e-mail
messages, etc. and, whenever a message appears worth reporting
on, they select it from the rest to work on. If it is not in
English, it is translated and then written into the standard
format of intelligence reports produced anywhere within the
UKUSA network either in entirety as a "report," or as a summary
or "gist."

INFORMATION CONTROL A highly organized system has been
developed to control what is being searched for by each station
and who can have access to it. This is at the heart of ECHELON
operations and works as follows.

The individual station's Dictionary computers do not simply
have a long list of keywords to search for. And they do not send
all the information into some huge database that participating
agencies can dip into as they wish. It is much more controlled.

The search lists are organized into the same categories,
referred to by the four digit numbers. Each agency decides its
own categories according to its responsibilities for producing
intelligence for the network. For GCSB, this means South Pacific
governments, Japanese diplomatic, Russian Antarctic activities,
and so on.

The agency then works out about 10 to 50 keywords for selection
in each category. The keywords include such things as names of
people, ships, organizations, country names, and subject names.
They also include the known telex and fax numbers and Internet
addresses of any individuals, businesses, organizations, and
government offices that are targets. These are generally written
as part of the message text and so are easily recognized by the
Dictionary computers.

The agencies also specify combinations of keywords to help sift
out communications of interest. For example, they might search
for diplomatic cables containing both the words "Santiago" and
"aid," or cables containing the word "Santiago" but not "consul"
(to avoid the masses of routine consular communications). It is
these sets of words and numbers (and combinations), under a
particular category, that get placed in the Dictionary
computers. (Staff in the five agencies called Dictionary
Managers enter and update the keyword search lists for each
agency.)

The whole system, devised by the NSA, has been adopted
completely by the other agencies. The Dictionary computers
search through all the incoming messages and, whenever they
encounter one with any of the agencies' keywords, they select
it. At the same time, the computer automatically notes technical
details such as the time and place of interception on the piece
of intercept so that analysts reading it, in whichever agency it
is going to, know where it came from, and what it is. Finally,
the computer writes the four-digit code (for the category with
the keywords in that message) at the bottom of the message's
text. This is important. It means that when all the intercepted
messages end up together in the database at one of the agency
headquarters, the messages on a particular subject can be
located again. Later, when the analyst using the Dictionary
system selects the four- digit code for the category he or she
wants, the computer simply searches through all the messages in
the database for the ones which have been tagged with that
number.

This system is very effective for controlling which agencies
can get what from the global network because each agency only
gets the intelligence out of the ECHELON system from its own
numbers. It does not have any access to the raw intelligence
coming out of the system to the other agencies. For example,
although most of the GCSB's intelligence production is primarily
to serve the UKUSA alliance, New Zealand does not have access to
the whole ECHELON network. The access it does have is strictly
controlled. A New Zealand intelligence officer explained: "The
agencies can all apply for numbers on each other's
Dictionaries. The hardest to deal with are the Americans. ...
[There are] more hoops to jump through, unless it is in their
interest, in which case they'll do it for you."

There is only one agency which, by virtue of its size and role
within the alliance, will have access to the full potential of
the ECHELON system the agency that set it up. What is the system
used for? Anyone listening to official "discussion" of
intelligence could be forgiven for thinking that, since the end
of the Cold War, the key targets of the massive UKUSA
intelligence machine are terrorism, weapons proliferation, and
economic intelligence. The idea that economic intelligence has
become very important, in particular, has been carefully
cultivated by intelligence agencies intent on preserving their
post-Cold War budgets. It has become an article of faith in much
discussion of intelligence. However, I have found no evidence
that these are now the primary concerns of organizations such as
NSA.

QUICKER INTELLIGENCE,SAME MISSION A different story emerges
after examining very detailed information I have been given
about the intelligence New Zealand collects for the UKUSA allies
and detailed descriptions of what is in the yards-deep
intelligence reports New Zealand receives from its four allies
each week. There is quite a lot of intelligence collected about
potential terrorists, and there is quite a lot of economic
intelligence, notably intensive monitoring of all the countries
participating in GATT negotiations. But by far, the main
priorities of the intelligence alliance continue to be
political and military intelligence to assist the larger allies
to pursue their interests around the world. Anyone and anything
the particular governments are concerned about can become a
target.

With capabilities so secret and so powerful, almost anything
goes. For example, in June 1992, a group of current "highly
placed intelligence operatives" from the British GCHQ spoke to
the London Observer: "We feel we can no longer remain silent
regarding that which we regard to be gross malpractice and
negligence within the establishment in which we operate." They
gave as examples GCHQ interception of three charitable
organizations, including Amnesty International and Christian
Aid. As the Observer reported: "At any time GCHQ is able to home
in on their communications for a routine target request," the
GCHQ source said. In the case of phone taps the procedure is
known as Mantis. With telexes it is called Mayfly. By keying in
a code relating to Third World aid, the source was able to
demonstrate telex "fixes" on the three organizations. "It is
then possible to key in a trigger word which enables us to home
in on the telex communications whenever that word appears," he
said. "And we can read a pre-determined number of characters
either side of the keyword."12 Without actually naming it, this
was a fairly precise description of how the ECHELON Dictionary
system works. Again, what was not revealed in the publicity was
that this is a UKUSA-wide system. The design of ECHELON means
that the interception of these organizations could have occurred
anywhere in the network, at any station where the GCHQ had
requested that the four-digit code covering Third World aid be
placed.

Note that these GCHQ officers mentioned that the system was
being used for telephone calls. In New Zealand, ECHELON is used
only to intercept written communications: fax, e-mail, and
telex. The reason, according to intelligence staff, is that the
agency does not have the staff to analyze large quantities of
telephone conversations.

Mike Frost's expos of Canadian "embassy collection" operations
described the NSA computers they used, called Oratory, that can
"listen" to telephone calls and recognize when keywords are
spoken. Just as we can recognize words spoken in all the
different tones and accents we encounter, so too, according to
Frost, can these computers. Telephone calls containing keywords
are automatically extracted from the masses of other calls and
recorded digitally on magnetic tapes for analysts back at agency
headquarters. However, high volume voice recognition computers
will be technically difficult to perfect, and my New
Zealand-based sources could not confirm that this capability
exists. But, if or when it is perfected, the implications would
be immense. It would mean that the UKUSA agencies could use
machines to search through all the international telephone calls
in the world, in the same way that they do written messages. If
this equipment exists for use in embassy collection, it will
presumably be used in all the stations throughout the ECHELON
network. It is yet to be confirmed how extensively telephone
communications are being targeted by the ECHELON stations for
the other agencies.

The easiest pickings for the ECHELON system are the
individuals, organizations,and governments that do not use
encryption. In New Zealand's area, for example, it has proved
especially useful against already vulnerable South Pacific
nations which do not use any coding, even for government
communications (all these communications of New Zealand's
neighbors are supplied, unscreened, to its UKUSA allies). As a
result of the revelations in my book, there is currently a
project under way in the Pacific to promote and supply publicly
available encryption software to vulnerable organizations such
as democracy movements in countries with repressive governments.
This is one practical way of curbing illegitimate uses of the
ECHELON capabilities.

One final comment. All the newspapers, commentators, and "well
placed sources" told the public that New Zealand was cut off
from US intelligence in the mid-1980s. That was entirely untrue.
The intelligence supply to New Zealand did not stop, and
instead, the decade since has been a period of increased
integration of New Zealand into the US system. Virtually
everything the equipment, manuals, ways of operating, jargon,
codes, and so on, used in the GCSB continues to be imported
entirely from the larger allies (in practice, usually the NSA).
As with the Australian and Canadian agencies, most of the
priorities continue to come from the US, too.

The main thing that protects these agencies from change is
their secrecy. On the day my book arrived in the book shops,
without prior publicity, there was an all-day meeting of the
intelligence bureaucrats in the prime minister's department
trying to decide if they could prevent it from being
distributed. They eventually concluded, sensibly, that the
political costs were too high. It is understandable that they
were so agitated.

Throughout my research, I have faced official denials or
governments refusing to comment on publicity about intelligence
activities. Given the pervasive atmosphere of secrecy and
stonewalling, it is always hard for the public to judge what is
fact, what is speculation, and what is paranoia. Thus, in
uncovering New Zealand's role in the NSA-led alliance, my aim
was to provide so much detail about the operations the technical
systems, the daily work of individual staff members, and even
the rooms in which they work inside intelligence facilities
that readers could feel confident that they were getting close
to the truth. I hope the information leaked by intelligence
staff in New Zealand about UKUSA and its systems such as ECHELON
will help lead to change.






New York Times
http://www10.nytimes.com/library/tech/99/05/cyber/articles/27network.html

May 27, 1999



Lawmakers Raise Questions About International Spy Network



By NIALL McKAY


An international surveillance network established by the
National Security Agency and British intelligence services has
come under scrutiny in recent weeks, as lawmakers in the United
States question whether the network, known as Echelon, could be
used to monitor American citizens.

Last week, the House Committee on Intelligence requested that
the National Security Agency and the Central Intelligence Agency
provide a detailed report to Congress explaining what legal
standards they use to monitor the conversations, transmissions
and activities of American citizens.

The request is part of an amendment to the annual intelligence
budget bill, the Intelligence Reauthorization Act. It was
proposed by Bob Barr, a Georgia Republican and was supported by
the chairman of the House Intelligence Committee, Porter Goss, a
Florida Republican. The amendment was passed by the House on May
13 and will now go before the Senate.

Barr, a former CIA analyst, is part of a growing contingent in
the United States, Europe and Australia alarmed by the existence
of Echelon, a computer system that monitors millions of e-mail,
fax, telex and phone messages sent over satellite-based
communications systems as well as terrestrial-based data
communications. The system was established under what is known
as the "UKUSA Agreement" after World War II and includes the
security agencies of the United States, Britain, Canada,
Australia and New Zealand.

Although Echelon was originally set up as an international spy
network, lawmakers are concerned that it could be used to
eavesdrop on American citizens.

"I am concerned there are not sufficient legal mechanisms in
place to protect our private information from unauthorized
government eavesdropping through such mechanisms as Project
Echelon," Barr said in an interview on Tuesday.

The finished report will outline the legal bases and other
criteria used by United States intelligence agencies when
assessing potential wiretap targets. It will be submitted to the
House and made available to the public.

"If the agencies feel unable to provide a full account to the
public, then a second classified report will be provided to the
House Committee on Intelligence," Barr said. "This is to stop
the agencies hiding behind a cloak of secrecy."

Judith Emmel, chief of public affairs for the NSA, declined to
comment about the UKUSA Agreement but said the agency was
committed to responding to all information requests covered by
Barr's amendment. "The NSA's Office of General Counsel works
hard to ensure that all Agency activities are conducted in
accordance with the highest constitutional, legal and ethical
standards," she said.

Until last Sunday, no government or intelligence agency from the
member states had openly admitted to the existence of the UKUSA
Agreement or Echelon. However, on a television program broadcast
on Sunday in Australia, the director of Australia's Defense
Signals Directorate acknowledged existence of the agreement. The
official, Martin Brady, declined to be interviewed for the
"Sunday Program," but provided a statement for its special on
Echelon. "DSD does cooperate with counterpart signals
intelligence organizations overseas under the UKUSA
relationship," the statement said.


----------------------------------------------------------------

Related Articles
European Parliament Debates Wiretap Proposal
(May 7, 1999)
Dutch Law Goes Beyond Enabling Wiretapping to Make It a Requirement
(April 14, 1998)

European Study Paints a Chilling Portrait of Technology's Uses
(February 24, 1998)


----------------------------------------------------------------


Meanwhile, European Parliament officials have also expressed
concern about the use of Echelon to gather economic intelligence
for participating nations. Last October, the spying system came
to the attention of the Parliament during a debate on Europe's
intelligence relationship with the United States. At that time,
the Parliament decided it needed more information about Echelon
and asked its Science and Technology Options Assessment Panel to
commission a report.

The report, entitled "Development of Surveillance Technology and
Risk of Abuse of Economic Information", was published on May 10
and provides a detailed account of Echelon and other
intelligence monitoring systems.

According to the report, Echelon is just one of the many code
names for the monitoring system, which consists of satellite
interception stations in participating countries. The stations
collectively monitor millions of voice and data messages each
day. These messages are then scanned and checked against certain
key criteria held in a computer system called the "Dictionary."
In the case of voice communications, the criteria could include
a suspected criminal's telephone number; with respect to data
communications, the messages might be scanned for certain
keywords, like "bomb" or "drugs." The report also alleges that
Echelon is capable of monitoring terrestrial Internet traffic
through interception nodes placed on deep-sea communications
cables.

While few dispute the necessity of a system like Echelon to
apprehend foreign spies, drug traffickers and terrorists, many
are concerned that the system could be abused to collect
economic and political information.

"The recent revelations about China's spying activities in the
U.S. demonstrates that there is a clear need for electronic
monitoring capabilities," said Patrick Poole, a lecturer in
government and economics at Bannock Burn College in Franklin,
Tenn., who compiled a report on Echelon for the Free Congress
Foundation. "But those capabilities can be abused for political
or economic purposes so we need to ensure that there is some
sort of legislative control over these systems."

On the "Sunday Program" special on Echelon, Mike Frost, a former
employee of Canada's Communications Security Establishment, said
that Britain's intelligence agency requested that the CSE
monitor the communications of British government officials in
the late 1980s. Under British law, the intelligence agency is
prohibited from monitoring its own government. Frost also said
that since the cold war is over, the "the focus now is towards
economic intelligence."

Still, Echelon has been shrouded in such secrecy that its very
existence has been difficult to prove. Barr's amendment aims to
change that. "If this report reveals that information about
American citizens is being collected without legal
authorization, the intelligence community will have some serious
explaining to do," Barr said.



----- Original Message -----
From: Perry E. Metzger <perry@piermont.com
To: <cryptography@c2.net
Sent: Saturday, June 05, 1999 6:30 AM
Subject: NSA and Congress at odds over Echelon

Federal Computer Week has an interesting article about the NSA
resisting Congressional oversight about Echelon:

http://www.fcw.com/pubs/fcw/1999/0531/web-nsa-6-3-99.html

Congress, NSA butt heads over Echelon

BY DANIEL VERTON (dan_verton@fcw.com)

Congress has squared off with the National Security Agency over
a top-secret U.S. global electronic surveillance program,
requesting top intelligence officials to report on the legal
standards used to prevent privacy abuses against U.S. citizens.

According to an amendment to the fiscal 2000 Intelligence
Authorization Act proposed last month by Sen. Bob Barr (R-Ga.),
the director of Central Intelligence, the director of NSA and
the attorney general must submit a report within 60 days of the
bill becoming law that outlines the legal standards being
employed to safeguard the privacy of American citizens against
Project Echelon.

Echelon is NSA's Cold War-vintage global spying system, which
consists of a worldwide network of clandestine listening posts
capable of intercepting electronic communications such as
e-mail, telephone conversations, faxes, satellite transmissions,
microwave links and fiber-optic communications traffic. However,
the European Union last year raised concerns that the system may
be regularly violating the privacy of law-abiding citizens [FCW,
Nov. 17, 1998].

However, NSA, the super secret spy agency known best for its
worldwide eavesdropping capabilities, for the first time in the
history of the House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence
refused to hand over documents on the Echelon program, claiming
attorney/client privilege.

Congress is "concerned about the privacy rights of American
citizens and whether or not there are constitutional safeguards
being circumvented by the manner in which the intelligence
agencies are intercepting and/or receiving international
communications...from foreign nations that would otherwise be
prohibited by...the limitations on the collection of domestic
intelligence," Barr said. "This very straightforward
amendment...will help guarantee the privacy rights of American
citizens [and] will protect the oversight responsibilities of
the Congress which are now under assault" by the intelligence
community.

Calling NSA's argument of attorney/client privilege
"unpersuasive and dubious," committee chairman Rep. Peter J.
Goss (R-Fla.) said the ability of the intelligence community to
deny access to documents on intelligence programs could
"seriously hobble the legislative oversight process" provided
for by the Constitution and would "result in the envelopment of
the executive branch in a cloak of secrecy."

Copyright 1999 FCW Government Technology Group




GERMANY ENCOURAGES TECHNO/COMM DEFENSE STRATEGY IN RESPONSE TO
ANGLO TECHNO-INVASION



From: "Ellis Smith"


<smithorg@bellatlantic.net>


June 6,1999



Germany has apparently woken up to the slight of hand activities
of the US DOJ activities regarding encryption and electronic
interdiction. (ILETS/DIRT) What is absolutely amazing is under
the pretense of chasing gangsters and terrorist's all these
countries never thought about the simple fact that they're all
gangs of one form or another and that with a little gratuity,
corporate activities could just as easily be included in the
monitoring routines. Its just business... like any other.


Ellis


----- Original Message -----

From: Putrefied Cow <waste@zor.hut.fi

To: <iufo@world.std.com

Sent: Friday, June 04, 1999 10:20 AM

Subject: IUFO: Germany Endorses Strong Crypto




Germany Endorses Strong Crypto


Wired News Report


5:20 p.m. 3.Jun.99.PDT



In an apparent response to corporate spying allegedly conducted
in Europe by the United States, Germany is encouraging citizens
and businesses to use strong cryptography.

"[Germany] considers the application of secure encryption to be
a crucial requirement for citizens' privacy, for the development
of electronic commerce, and for the protection of business
secrets," reads a translated version of a policy framework
document released

Wednesday by Germany's Federal Department of Business and
Technology (BMWI).

"The federal government will therefore actively support the
distribution of secure encryption. This includes in particular
increasing the security consciousness of citizens, business and
administration.


Australia recently became the first nation to admit it
participates in Echelon, a previously secret global surveillance
network capable of intercepting electronic communications
anywhere in the world.


Echelon is said to be principally operated by the United States'
National Security Agency and its UK equivalent, the Government
Communications Headquarters. In addition to Australia, the
system relies on cooperation with other signals-intelligence
agencies in Canada and

New Zealand.


Earlier this month, UK investigative journalist Duncan Campbell
submitted Interception Capabilities 2000, his report on Echelon,
to the European Parliament's Science and Technology Options
Assessment Panel.


Campbell had been asked to investigate the system in the wake of
charges made last year in the European Parliament that Echelon
was being used to funnel European government and industry
secrets into US hands. In the wake of the report, the Australian
government confirmed the Echelon alliance to media in follow-up
interviews.


Though Wednesday's German government statement does not mention
Echelon, the document alludes to the specter of industrial
espionage.


"For reasons of national security, and the security of business
and society, the federal government considers the ability of
German manufacturers to develop and manufacture secure and
efficient encryption products indispensable," the statement
said. The government added that it would take additional
measures to strengthen its domestic crypto software industry.


The policy also cautioned that while encryption may be used to
criminal ends, the need to protect electronic commerce overrides
any such concerns. The department said it would prepare and
release a report on the criminal uses of cryptography within two
years.


The US government restricts the export of strong crypto on the
grounds that it might be used by terrorists and hostile nations
to conceal communications.


- Posted by: Putrefied Cow <waste@zor.hut.fi



27 May 1999 Source: Hardcopy Business Week, May 31, 1999,
pp.110-111.

INTELLIGENCE

THEY'RE LISTENING TO YOUR CALLS

Echelon monitors phones, E-mail, and radio signals



  You think the Internet brings grave new threats to privacy?
Then you probably don't know about Echelon. Run by the super
secret National Security Agency, it's the grand- daddy of all
snooping operations.


Business and political leaders are waking up to the alarming
potential of this hush-hush system. A combination of spy
satellites and sensitive listening stations, it eavesdrops on
just about every electronic communication that crosses a
national border ; phone calls, faxes, telexes, and E-mail ;plus
all radio signals, including short-wave, airline, and maritime
frequencies. Echelon's globe-straddling system also listens in
on most long distance telecom traffic within countries. Ditto
for local cell-phone calls.


Indeed, if a phone call or message travels via satellite or
microwave relay during any part of its journey, it probably gets
picked up by Echelon. So the lion's share of all
telecommunications traffic is bugged because even undersea phone
cables and fiberoptic terrestrial systems often have microwave
links somewhere in the loop. "Americans should know that every
time they place an international call, the NSA is listening,"
says John E. Pike, a military analyst at the Federation of
American Scientists in Washington. "Just get used to the fact
;Big Brother is listening."


In Europe, Big Brother may soon get a second set of ears. The
European Parliament is working on a junior version of Echelon. A
resolution outlining the technical standards for tapping such
new tech systems as the Internet was approved on May 7.


Encryption is no guarantee of privacy either. The NSA, which is
bigger than the Central Intelligence Agency and runs Echelon
from its headquarters at Ft. Meade, Md., has little trouble
unscrambling messages encoded with most commercial encryption
software. With a little more time, NSA can probably break
"crypto" schemes with so- called keys almost 1,000 bits long,
says Lisa S. Dean, vice-president for technology at the Free
Congress Research & Education Foundation, a conservative think
tank in Washington. "That's why 1,028 bits is used by most
organizations that are concerned about confidentiality."


If it's any consolation, the vast bulk of all communications are
never heard or seen by people. Echelon's chief task is sifting
through civilian telecom traffic for clues about terrorist
plots, drug-smuggling cartels, political unrest, and other
intelligence requested by the Pentagon, government strategists,
and law-enforcement agencies. Supercomputers screen the
so-called intercepts for key words related to such matters. If
the computers don't spot anything suspicious, the tapes get
erased after a month or so.


LEAKS AND POACHERS.


Still, like any technological tool, Echelon is subject to
political abuses∧ there have been some. During the Reagan
Administration, Echelon intercepted phone calls by Michael
Barnes, then a Democratic Congressman from Maryland, to
Nicaraguan officials, and transcripts were leaked to the press.
Echelon can also backfire: On two occasions, Canadian spooks who
collaborate with the NSA used Echelon to pick up information on
pending U. S.China grain deals and steal the business with lower
prices.


Echelon has been operating with little fanfare for decades. It
springs from a secret pact signed in 1948 by the U. S.,
Australia, Britain, Canada, and New Zealand&the countries
running Echelon's main listening posts (map). Then, last year,
the system was hauled into the glare of public scrutiny by a
study prepared for the European Parliament by Omega Foundation,
a British market researcher. Europeans were enraged by its
finding that "within Europe, all Email, telephone, and fax
communications are routinely intercepted" by the NSA. "Unlike
many of the electronic spy systems developed during the Cold
War," the report noted, "Echelon is designed for primarily
non-military targets: governments, organizations, and businesses
in virtually every country."



From: "d.linen" <

linen@flash.net


...snip...@niehs.nih.gov 27 May 99 8:46 am


http://www.nytimes.com/library/tech/99/05/cyber/articles/27network.html


An international surveillance network established by the
National Security Agency and British intelligence services has
come under scrutiny in recent weeks, as lawmakers in the United
States question whether the network, known as Echelon, could be
used to monitor American citizens. Last week, the House
Committee on Intelligence requested that the National

Security Agency and the Central Intelligence Agency provide a
detailed report to Congress explaining what legal standards they
use to monitor the conversations, transmissions and activities
of American citizens.

<snip>

Until last Sunday, no government or intelligence agency from the
member states had openly admitted to the existence of the UKUSA
Agreement or Echelon. However, on a television program broadcast
on Sunday in Australia, the director of Australia's Defense
Signals Directorate acknowledged the existence of the agreement.
The official, Martin Brady, declined to be interviewed for the
"Sunday Program," but provided a statement for its special on
Echelon. "DSD does cooperate with counterpart signals
intelligence organizations overseas under the UKUSA
relationship," the statement said.

<snip>

According to the report, Echelon is just one of the many code
names for the monitoring system, which consists of satellite
interception stations in participating countries. The stations
collectively monitor millions of voice and data messages each
day. These messages are then scanned and checked against certain
key criteria held in a computer system called the "Dictionary."

In the case of voice communications, the criteria could include
a suspected criminal's telephone number; with respect to data
communications, the messages might be scanned for certain
keywords, like "bomb" or "drugs." The report also alleges that
Echelon is capable of monitoring terrestrial Internet traffic
through interception nodes placed on deep-sea communications
cables.

<snip>


ILETS, THE PHONE COMPANY, THE BANK, THE CREDIT CARD COMPANY AND
THE UFO COMMUNITY

by Ellis Smith


Alpha testing to Beta Testing - What better way to test
electronic warfare technologies then an intellectually and
technologically superior public control group?

Yesterday afternoon while going through email I noted a very
unusual note generated by a gentleman to a nondescript post.
Rather then reply, the note was converted to an attachment, then
re-sent to a very large distribution lis. The attachment with a
three word reply.


(This is not to infer the gentleman himself was the responsible
party. As anyone involved in softwar's knows, nine times out of
ten the originating parties had no clue their email was being
altered or tampered with in process of distributing it.)


It struck me as very odd as to what purpose one would one go to
this effort in order to forward an attachment of a prior email
for a three word response. Something here did not compute. As
many might already realize, virus's and trojan horses can only
be successfully transmitted by either hypertext links and/or
email attachments.


I confronted the gentleman on the list, not directly but
indirectly, asking as to why such an effort to convert to an
attachment for such a minuscule response? He was not even aware
it had been converted and according to the list moderator not
everyone received it as being an attachment. This is even odder.


Within five minutes of my email being successfully distributed
to those online I was knocked offline as was one of our own
subscribers in Texas which is very far away from California or
New York/New Jersey.

As I was about to pick up the phone to contact THE PHONE COMPANY
to inquire as to why I was no longer able to connect, when our
subscriber called me directly stating "I've just been knocked
offline and I cannot get back on". She has relentlessly been
pursued by the hackers we've focused on for the past year and so
she called to ask my advice. Needless to say, I told her her
timing was impeccable as I too was unable to get online having
been unexpectedly disconnected.


I spent the next two and one half hours working my way thru *THE
PHONE COMPANY's Corp. structure. It seems that even "THE PHONE
COMPANY was unable by phone to reach it's own PHONE COMPANY's
Internet Services Division.. After 7 attempts and 2 hours I
finally got thru. It seemed that the entire North Jersey servers
had just had their password systems crashed and no one could log
in.


North Jersey is the most densely populated area in the nation.


THE PHONE COMPANY had only just discovered the "outage" 20
minutes before I "worked" my way through their corporate
structure even though the network had actually been down 2
hours. Apparently no one could get through in order to inform
them their system was down.

Texas and NJ do not share a common carrier. The coincidence of
the email, our outages and THE PHONE COMPANY suddenly crashing
simultaneous defies statistical probability. Not to mention that
less then four months ago when our system was destroyed, THE
PHONE COMPANY was hacked at that time also (according to Network
Engineers who will not be quoted for fear of their jobs or
lives) and was shut down completely for many , many hours.

Now, suddenly in light of this massive outage; this "FBI STORY"
comes out via MSNBC.

(Hackers Vrs. FBI - MSNBC)


Yeah right.


Lets try my story.


In June of 1998 ILETS witnessed the software being displayed at
a vendor convention in NYC and purchases it.


Mid July unknown military/intelligence cost centers contracted
"a known Internet corporate executive of wealth, resources and
whom they had purchased and set up into his previous position of
wealth and fame". They gave him the military contract to devise
and test this product into a workable and verifiable weapon.


They utilized data centers around the globe to Alpha test their
product and tailor it to defeat their target test group and
succeeded by compromising the individual test group they
determined would be the greatest challenge. The UFO community's
demographic's are such that the average user is intellectually
and technologically adept if not superior and they possess a
foundation of belief that assumes a conspiracy is waged against
them. Meaning in essence, they are already prepared defensively.
Once this community was compromised they proceeded to compromise
A MAJOR CREDIT CARD/BANK COMPANY by initiating falsified credit
debits repeatedly from an account in Florida to a retail site in
North Dakota which just happens to be the legal Corporate
headquarters of the same bank.


They then defeated A MAJOR COMMUNICATIONS HUB NETWORK SOURCE,
namely THE PHONE COMPANY; by knocking them completely offline
for hours.


After the results were proven in ALPHA testing, the reports were
generated and provided to the Pentagon. During this time war
erupted in the Balkans. When Clinton was presented with the
choices available and when the aerial bombing was proving to not
be producing the results expected; this new technology was
brought to his attention.


Last week Clinton signed an executive order allowing this
technology to be put into action and approved its use in
acquiring Serbian funds clandestinely and to disrupt their
communications systems. Within two days of the signing of this
Executive Order, Beta testing began and hence THE PHONE COMPANY
was hit again, as were the same members of their test Alpha
group and I'd wager the BANK and CREDIT CARD customers were as
well. This all being part of the final validation process before
they go live in Europe.


How many people lost tons of money for the nonsense that ensued
when THE PHONE COMPANY password server was raided and rendered
incapacitated?


How many credit card holders are going to be over charged by
$50.00 transaction across the board as they test their
capabilities to usurp their Banking systems overseas?


And if anyone wonders why the US MILITARY and the rest of these
slimy b******* read my site, it must certainly and primarily be
DIRT, ILETS and its Domestic Testing.


Amazing what kind of attention a guy in a bathrobe can get eh?

Ellis





From: "Ellis Smith" <

smithorg@bellatlantic.net


Nice to know our tax dollars are being used so effectively with
a limited budget. How come they can triple their work efforts in
domestic espionage but not manage to do so with say food stamps
or rental assistance with the same budgets?


Ellis


_____________________________________________________




Forwarded from NewsScan Daily:


NewsScan Daily, 21 May 1999 ("Above The Fold")


************************************************************

NewsScan Daily is a summary of significant information
technology news, written by John Gehl & Suzanne Douglas. It is a
FREE service of

NewsScan.com. Visit us at http://www.NewsScan.com/

************************************************************


ELECTRONIC WIRETAPS TRIPLED LAST YEAR


The number of wiretaps placed by state and federal law
enforcement officials on cell phones, pagers, e-mail and other
telecommunications devices nearly tripled last year, and for the
first time wiretaps on cell phones and pagers outnumbered those
on conventional telephones. About three-quarters of the 1,329
wiretaps authorized were related to drug cases, according to a
report issued by the Administrative Office of the U.S. Courts.
Wiretaps on wireless communications devices -- cell phones and
pagers -- more than doubled, from 206 in 1997 to 576 last year,
and for the first time, five e-mail wiretaps were implemented.
(USA Today 21 May 99)
http://www.usatoday.com/life/cyber/tech/ctf213.htm


EU PLAN FOR INTERNET SNOOPING UNDER ATTACK


The U.K. House of Commons Select Trade and Industry Committee
has released a report criticizing the European Union's Enfopol
resolution, which would force Internet service providers and
telecommunications carriers to establish an infrastructure that
would enable law enforcement agencies to intercept Internet
traffic. Calling the plan unjustified and unfeasible, committee
chairman Martin O'Neill said, "We felt the civil-liberties
arguments outweighed the security arrangements. If (the
intelligence services) could justify what they were doing in
terms of results, people would want to do it. Otherwise, it's a
leap in the dark." O'Neill also noted that such restrictions
could damage the climate for e-commerce in Great Britain, and
Europe in general.


(TechWeb 21 May 99)

http://www.techweb.com/wire/story/TWB19990520S0022






- Posted by: Putrefied Cow <waste@zor.hut.fi




International Conspiracy Threatens Internet Privacy

ILETS - DIRT - ECHELON

From: Ellis Smith

To: AMERI-ADVOCATE

Sent: Sunday, May 23, 1999 7:15 PM

Subject: [Ameri-Advocate] ILETS - STATE DEPT-WASHINGTON

This is purely a personal opinion and should not be held as
reason for bombing, espionage, insertion of radioactive material
or legal entanglements of the ridiculous kind. This is an
expression of free speech and personal interpretation that are
guarantee under the constitution and should any retribution be
inherited from this expression we are prepared with counsel,
legally to respond.

Now, having said this...

According to ABC news this evening Data Warfare permission has
been authorized by President Clinton. This is a surprise?
Frankly no.

The UFO community having endured close to a year of bizarre
hacking and viral attacks should not find it unusual that the
Dept. of State has finally been given clearance to perform the
tasks legally and in a mode of direct warfare that they've
already more then tested and perfected on this nations own
population for the past year.

Numerous reports and occurrence have transpired over the past

year that although leave no definitive proof nor verifiable
audit trail that this is the case; still, any idiot with half a
consciousness can follow with the slightest amount of grey
matter.

It began with the release of the "top five groups to watch for
the millennia". The usual terrorist cells, drug dealers,
communist infiltrators, right wing armed white supremacist
extremist groups and UFO buff's? What was wrong with this
picture?

What makes the UFO investigative community unique is the
demographic's. Most are technically trained and disciplined, are
relatively well off economically, are dedicated and have a
premise of paranoia as their base line of investigative
endeavors. What better target group to test the most invasive
and technologically complex projects initiated to date then on a
target group who are already expecting technological invasion,
are technologically savvy to the state of the art in data
interception and defensive arts and who are most likely to not
raise a public flag should things go awry?

What is fascinating is that true to form in the US ability to
devise superior technology their efforts were fast and perfected
easily, taking under a year to quantify their ability and
project viability. They compromised *A Major Bank* Visa, *A
Phone Company*, hundreds of individual labs an personal
computers and God only knows how many commercial interest's in
they're qualification routines.

Now, with this completed, President Clinton signs off on allow
this project to go live in a "war zone" to go after Milosovech's
and Serbia's Bank Accounts.

Big Surprise. Its nice to know that somehow we played a BS bit
part in the overall strategy to deprive genocidal maniac's the
ability to wage war on innocent civilians. However I will
reiterate, that I would appreciate NATO continuing with the
effort on the other criminal states in the world, namely South
Dakota, Minnesota and Arizona who are also actively engaged in
their own genocidal war on innocent civilians.

Since NATO and the US feel that hypocrisy is somehow
explainable, having endured their testing at great personal
monetary loss I might add, makes the effort far less noble and
far more nauseating.

IMHO ,

Ellis

________________________________________________________________

Ellis Smith" smithorg@bellatlantic.net

Once again, thanks to the Europeans, we're receiving even more
info on the US's war on the electronic community and civilians
as a whole, complements of ILETS and its associated membership
and strategic alliances.

Ellis

-----Original Message-----

From: Traumatic Dog waste@zor.hut.fi


Spying on the Spies

by Niall McKay

12:15 p.m. 10.May.99.PDT

The National Security Agency has its ear to the world, but
doesn't listen to everyone at once. That was one conclusion of a
new report, Interception Capabilities 2000, accepted late last
week by the European Parliament's Science and Technology Options
Assessment Panel (STOA).

The panel commissioned Duncan Campbell, a British investigative
reporter, to prepare a report on Echelon, the US-led satellite
surveillance network. "I have no objection to these systems
monitoring serious criminals and terrorists," said Glyn Ford, a
British Labour Party member of parliament and a committee member
of STOA. "But what is missing here is accountability, clear
guidelines as to who they can listen to, and in what
circumstances these laws apply."

Campbell was asked to investigate the system in the wake of
charges made last year in the European Parliament that Echelon
was being used to funnel European government and industry
secrets into US hands. "What is new and important about this
report is that it contains the first ever documentary evidence
of the Echelon system," said Campbell.

Campbell obtained the document from a source at Menwith Hill,
the principal NSA communications monitoring station, located
near Harrogate in northern England. The report details how
intelligence agencies intercept Internet traffic and digital
communications, and includes screen shots of traffic analysis
from NSA computer systems.

Interception Capabilities 2000 also provides an account of a
previously unknown, secret international organization led by the
FBI. According to Campbell, the "secret" organization, called
ILETS (International Law Enforcement Telecommunications
Seminar), is working on building backdoor wiretap capabilities
into all forms of modern communications, including satellite
communications systems.

"[The report] is undoubtedly the most comprehensive look at
Echelon to date because of its attention to detail -- [and] the
NSA's use of technology," said John Young, a privacy activist in
New York. Although the United States has never officially
acknowledged Echelon's existence, dozens of investigative
reports over the past decade have revealed a maze-like system
that can intercept telephone, data, cellular, fax, and email
transmissions sent anywhere in the world. Previously, Echelon
computers were thought to be able to scan millions of telephone
lines and faxes for keywords such as "bomb" and "terrorist." But
Campbell's report maintains that the technologies to perform
such a global dragnet do not exist.

Instead, Campbell said that the system targets the
communications networks of known diplomats, criminals, and
industrialists of interest to the intelligence community. The
report charges that popular software programs such as Lotus
Notes and Web browsers include a "backdoor," through which the
NSA can gain access to an individual's personal information.

Citing a November 1997 story in the Swedish newspaper, Svenska
Dagbladet, the report said that "Lotus built in an NSA 'help
information' trapdoor to its Notes system, as the Swedish
government discovered to its embarrassment." The report goes on
to describe a feature called a "work factor reduction field"
that is built into Notes and incorporated into all email sent by
non-US users of the system. The feature reportedly broadcasts 24
of the 64 bits of the key used for each communication, and
relies on a public key that can only be read by the NSA.

Lotus could not be reached for comment.

The new report emerges as politicians on both sides of the
Atlantic are growing increasingly concerned about Echelon and
its capabilities. "I believe that it's time that there is some
congressional scrutiny of the Echelon project and I am examining
a way to do that," said Representative Bob Barr (R-Georgia). "I
understand the need for secrecy -- I was with the CIA myself --
but Echelon has raised some questions about fundamental policy
and constitutional rights."

Barr is concerned that the NSA is using its Echelon partners to
help it sidestep laws that forbid the US government from spying
on its own people. So far, there has been very little scrutiny
of spy systems in the United States, according to Patrick Poole,
a privacy advocate and lecturer in government and economics at
Bannock Burn College in Franklin,Tennessee. "The only
significant examination of spy systems in the United States was
the Church Report, which was prompted by Watergate in the early
'70s," said Poole. "I hope that Europe's interest in the Echelon
system will spark some new debate in the US."

Echelon is believed to be principally operated by the NSA and
its British counterpart, the Government Communications
Headquarters.

The system also reportedly relies on agreements with similar
agencies in other countries, including Canada's Communications
Security Establishment, Australia's Defense Signals Directorate,
and New Zealand's Government Communications Security Bureau.

________________________________________________________________

Source

: Codex Data Systems http://www.thecodex.com/

http://www.codexdatasystems.com/cdsnews.html

Want to know they're saying about D.I.R.T.?

Military and Government Agency Access ONLY

Certain Information is Restricted and Closed To Unauthorized Use.

PLEASE READ ACCESS WARNINGS, IF ANY, AND ABIDE BY THEM.

All accesses verified.

Access to restricted area is granted upon receipt of your

official request on agency letterhead.

Call 914-627-0011 for details or fax Official Agency letterhead

to: 914-627-0211

Technical Specifications

Sale of this technology is restricted to military, government
and law enforcement agencies only... For additional information
we require a written request on official letterhead signed by an
authorized official...

Codex Data Systems, Inc. will be happy to provide a demonstration
to any authorized agency

The first public demonstration of D.I.R.T. was on June 5, 1998
at the SpookTech98 Conference in New York City

Network World - July 1998

DIRT Bugs Strike!

By Winn Schwartau

"Imagine being able to monitor and intercept data from any PC in
the world anytime you want.

Then DIRT's for you.

DIRT stands for Data Interception by Remote Transmission, and if
Codex Data Systems in Bardonia, New York has anything to say
about it, will become the next law enforcement tool to help stop
the bad guys.

The cops are having a terrifically hard time dealing with
cybercrime, and they all put on-line child pornography at the
top of the list because of the emotional response to it.

Suspected terrorists, drug traffickers, money launderers, are
also potential targets for DIRT as are various criminal
organizations which employ anonymity, remote control and
encryption to hide themselves. DIRT represents a fabulous, but
questionably legal/ethical means of information gathering by
intelligence agencies as well as private investigators.

Thus Frank Jones and Codex Data Systems begat DIRT. "We have to
give law enforcement the tools they need to get real criminals.

So many of them are now using encryption, DIRT allows law
enforcement to read encrypted messages."

DIRT operates surreptitiously like a Trojan Horse. It is
transmitted secretly to a target via email in several ways:
either as a proprietary protocol, self extracting executable,
dummy segment fault, hidden ZIP file, application specific
weakness, macro, a steganographic attachment or other methods
the company's technical wizard, Eric Schneider will not divulge.

Once the DIRT-Bug is successfully embedded in the target
machine, two things occur. One, all keystrokes at the keyboard
are secretly captured and when the target machine is connected
on-line, it will stealthily transmit the captured contents to a
remotely located DIRT-Control Central for analysis. This is how
encryption keys are to be discovered and later used to develop
evidence in criminal cases.

Secondly, when the target is on-line, his PC will invisibly
behave like an anonymous FTP server, giving the folks at
DIRT-Control Center 100% access to all resources. So much for
privacy!

Dave Banisar Staff Counsel at the Electronic Privacy Information
Center in Washington, DC. said DIRT "Sounds like something the
Stasi would have developed." The problem is enforcement and
abuse he points out. "The only way to control this technology is
after the fact, during the trial when the police have to show
how they obtained evidence."

When I first saw DIRT demonstrated in New York (June 5, 1998), I
thought, "What if this gets out to the entire Internet
community. what will happen if we no longer ever trust our
email?"

The vast majority of computer crime goes unrecognized,
unreported and unprosecuted. Despite the fact that the use of
DIRT or a DIRT-like clone developed by the computer underground
violates the Computer Abuse Act of 1984 and an assortment of
other laws, the ability to control it remains extremely slim.

And the uses for DIRT-like software stagger the imagination.

All that someone with DIRT needs to know is your email address.

Period. All he has to do is send you an email, with the embedded
DIRT-Trojan Horse and he's home free, and you are a clueless
victim.

Large organizations usually worry about hackers breaking and
entering their networks. Now they have reason to worry that
DIRT-Bugs could invade their networks as well; whether launched
by an investigating law enforcement authority, international
competitors or spies, or just hackers. The last thing in the
world they want is for critical workstations to be broadcasting
passwords, encryption codes and providing complete system access
to whoever controls DIRT-Central.

Unfortunately, most firms with whom I deal have little
implementation of the minor policies they have developed. Thus,
defending against DIRT can be difficult. However, organizations
which utilize NAT and proxies in their firewalls achieve some
degree of confidence that DIRT's remote access capability will
not function. Just the keyboard strokes (and associated private
information) will be broadcast to DIRT-Central.

According to the developers at Codex Data Systems, if you are a
solitary PC sitting on a dial-up or a cable modem, there is
nothing - today - you can do except don't click on your email
attachments. Of course, ignoring email from strangers is always
a good idea. But, if I were a cop or a bad guy using DIRT, I
would certainly go after your home PC as well as the one at
work. It's a whole lot easier, and I am going to learn just as
much.

With the advent of more and more powerful Trojans, such as DIRT
(which only occupies 20K), the threat to our networked systems
gets clearer and clearer. As Frank Jones, the inventor says,
"There are no more secrets with DIRT."

TechWeek - Sept. 1998

Beware the Keystroke Cops

by Sarah Ellerman

Getting DIRT on criminals

"There is another powerful tool for surreptitiously intercepting
data, but it is only available to law enforcement and the
military. Called DIRT (Data Interception and Remote
Transmission), it was released in June by Codex Data Systems,
Inc. Investigators need only know your e-mail address to
secretly install the program. Once they do, investigators can
read your documents, view your images, download your files and
intercept your encryption keys. DIRT was developed to assist law
enforcement in pedophilia investigations, but future uses could
include drug investigations, money laundering cases and
information warfare.

How is DIRT different from Back Orifice? The sale of DIRT is
restricted, while Back Orifice is free for the downloading.

Also, there are already fixes available for Back Orifice, but no
way yet to defend against DIRT. "

Most feel secure when they encrypt their data, but it's an
illusion of comfort if a keystroke monitor is involved. DIRT
defeated Pretty Good Privacy in a matter of minutes at a recent
conference simply by stealing the user's key as it was typed
in."



Internet & Intranet Business & Technology Report - Oct. 1998
D.I.R.T. - The Ultimate Competitive Intelligence Tool

by Deb Cameron

"Codex Data Systems, Inc. of New York has created Data
Interception for Remote Transmission (DIRT), a surveillance tool
designed for law enforcement professionals. DIRT is similar to
BO in some respects, but it is smaller (less than 18K versus
120K for BO) and yet more stealthy. It runs as a much lower
level process and is virtually undetectable. In addition, it
cannot be stopped by firewalls.

DIRT was originally developed to aid in the investigation of
child pornographers and other isolated criminals using
standalone PCs. By becoming a spy in the user's computer, the
law enforcement official can gather needed evidence to
successfully prosecute a criminal case. Frank Jones, creator of
DIRT, surveyed the market for computer surveillance tools to aid
law enforcement professionals. When he found no suitable
products, he began developing DIRT, which he continues to
enhance.

DIRT logs all keystrokes on the target workstation and transmits
them the next time that system is online. Because users type in
their encryption pass phrases at the keyboard, which are then
transmitted via DIRT, the product helps law enforcement
officials decrypt documents and provides them with substantial
evidence for criminal investigations. All DIRT communications
are encrypted on their way back to the DIRT Control Center,
protecting them in case they are intercepted by a random system
administrator.

In the latest version of DIRT, the agency need not send the
software as an e-mail message at all; the law enforcement agency
needs only the e-mail address or the IP address of the target
system. (At the very least, the variety of techniques described
here should make users wary of dismissing the idea that a third
party could install software without their knowledge.)

DIRT currently runs on Windows 95, 98, and NT systems and a Unix
version is being developed. Only qualified law enforcement
agencies can purchase DIRT; furthermore, Codex currently sells
the software only to U.S. law enforcement agencies.

Jones emphasizes that surreptitious surveillance tools, such as
Back Orifice and keystroke logging facilities, are illegal to
develop or possess in the United States, according to U.S. code
2512. These tools are illegal even if they are used by network
administrators unless each end user explicitly agrees to the
monitoring.

DIRT is legal because it is a law enforcement tool that can only
be sold to law enforcement agencies. DIRT itself is not a threat
to the average corporate network, but the knowledge that such a
tool exists should make users consider whether their networks
are secure. Security is clearly a relative term, and
organizations ignore security issues at their own risk."

Additional Info requests by Authorized Agencies ONLY
cds@ucs.net






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   Aug > Aug 7

                            An Unexpected Hiatus

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
Date: Sat, 07 Aug 1999 14:00:56 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 07 Aug 1999 14:00:56 -0400
Subject: An Unexpected Hiatus





Gentle Readers,

Feeling mightily pleased last week with the new burner
& player, the Eudora upgrade, G2 and a few tweaks, on
Tuesday morning came a shock.

The damn system would only boot into safe-mode. To cut
many, many hours of frustration, a single chip on a
RAM set chose to quit. It took the usual eternity to
track down the problem. Michael Seaman of Mandala Design
in Toronto has, once again, saved the bute-ox. Thanks
Michael.

The server UpDates has been using for the past

Mail should start flowing again following this post.

ebk








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                          Notes From The Borderland

From: Arthur Mix <arfamix@yahoo.com>
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 03:41:52 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Sat, 07 Aug 1999 07:58:40 -0400
Subject: Notes From The Borderland


[Non-subscriber post]

Notes From The Borderland is an English parapolitical magazine
edited by Larry O'Hara, reporting on secret state covert
operations, dirty tricks, the far right and other news from the
often suppressed fringes of politics. �2.50p from BM 4769 London
WC1N 3XX, UK

In preparation:

'At War With The Universe' - an account of Tim Hepple/Tim
Matthews and his infiltration of the UFO scene.

ISSUE 2 (October 1998) :
David Shayler- Ememy of MI5 he might be, a friend of the left he
is not.
Herr Vogt - Karl Marx's forgotten masterpiece
More state dirty tricks in Yorkshire exposed
Jaimie - infiltrator and agent provocateur
Mind control by Robin Whitaker

Analysis, Facts, documents, sources
Find out what is really going on.

NFTB, BM 4769, London WC1N 3XX, UK
Pager phone (UK) 01523-492994





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                     Ghost And UFOs - We've Got 'Em All

From: Keith Basterfield Network <tkbnetw@fan.net.au>
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 22:38:56 +1000
Fwd Date: Sat, 07 Aug 1999 08:06:02 -0400
Subject: Ghost And UFOs -  We've Got 'Em All


Thanks for the newspaper clipping to
Keith Douglass AUFORN rep Alice Springs NT
_________________________________________

GHOST AND UFOs we've got 'em all

NT NEWS Paper 30th 6.1999
By Nikki Voss

Australia was 11 percent weirder last year and The Territory can
take the credit for the big jump In strange phenomena.

The Australian Center for Mystery Investigations (ACMI) has
found UFO sightings and reports of haunted houses doubled in the
NT in the past financial year. ACMI chief investigator Tim "the
Yowie Man" Bull said yesterday he was excited by the findings
but said  the strange lights and ghostly apparitions could be
linked to an increase of defence force air traffic and the
notorious Humpty Doo haunted house case.

Triangle

Mr. Bull said the Territory was like the "an Australian version
of the Bermuda Triangle with 200 UFO reports in NT skies last
year � up by 50 percent. The UFO hot spots were Wycliffe Well
near Tennant Creek and Darwin rural area. Mr. Bull said
yesterday "The trend in the Territory is the opposite to the
rest of the country."

There are more reports of unexplained lights than ever before.
There are probably more reports in the NT Because people spend a
lot more time in the great out- Doors "But that may be because
of all the unusual defence Force planes flying around." There
were 30 reports of Poltergeists  and ghost. Mr. Bull said, "Most
of the ghost are in the Darwin area although I have had a few
cases in Alice Springs and one at Elliott.

"This might be because of all the publicity about the Humpty Doo
horror house." In other results, Tasmanian Tiger sightings were
up 37 per cent, Alien Abduction reports fell 2 percent and
bizarre coincidences plummeted 17 per cent.

Regards Diane  Harrison

Co. Director of The Australian UFO Research Network.
Australian Skywatch Director.


The Keith Basterfield Network Australasia
E-Mail  tkbnetw@fan.net.au
http://www.fan.net.au/~tkbnetw/new
UFO Australian  Research Network Hot Line Number





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                     Sighting Report 27.07.1999 OZ File

From: Keith Basterfield Network <tkbnetw@fan.net.au>
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 22:51:48 +1000
Fwd Date: Sat, 07 Aug 1999 08:09:24 -0400
Subject: Sighting Report 27.07.1999 OZ File


Sighting Report 27.07.1999 OZ File

AUFORN Rep: John Mapson
Location: Bundaberg, QLD Australia.

Date: 27.07.1999
Day: Wednesday
Time: 7.00pm
Duration of Sighting 7.00pm to 7.30pm
Location: 500meters  South of Moorlands road turn off near
Rosedale Road, North Bunderberg Queensland.
Environment which object was sighted: Bush & Farmland

Sightee's 2: Michael & Katrina Baldwin

Report 1. Mrs. Katrina Baldwin age 27 years.

I was about 3 klms down Rosedale road traveling north when in
front of me above the tree line30 degrees west to the horizon I
saw a very bright light. The sky was clear and there was a full
moon.

It light appeared to be moving a lot faster than any plane,
helicopter or anything you normally see in the sky. The whole
object was one bright light. By the time I pulled up on my
footpath this large bright light was stopped further down the
road.

I was watching it for a few minutes, then my husband asked what
I was doing. I then parked the car and told him about it. We
both went out on to the footpath and watched it for about ten
Minutes.

This object appeared to be hovering in the one spot then it
would slightly move to the left. The light had a clear circular
outline and I noticed a faint inner line. Then the bright light
started to change colours,  red to orange and back To white. We
both went inside to get a drink and when we came out it was
gone.

Report 2. Mr. Michael J Baldwin age 30 years

My wife was out picking up our son from tennis in town and she
was on her way home when she saw a bright light going through
the sky to the left of the car. When she got into the front
driveway she called me out to show me the object hovering in the
sky it was to the north west of the house around 50 meters above
the trees at about 30 degrees to the horizon.

We watched it for about ten more minutes before we both went
inside to make a coffee.

The Object was a round in shape it went orange & white light
but it went a blue  colour for a second or two also it appeared
to be pulsating, it also moved left then right and up then down
then it disappeared. END DH.

Thank you John Mapson AUFORN Rep, Bundaberg QLD
for snail mailing this report.

Regards Diane Harrison
Co. Director of The Australian UFO Research Network
Australian Skywatch Director

The Keith Basterfield Network Australasia
E-Mail  tkbnetw@fan.net.au
http://www.fan.net.au/~tkbnetw/new
UFO Australian  Research Network Hot Line Number
1800 77 22 88 Free Call







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                     Sighting Report 07.07.1999 OZ File

From: Keith Basterfield Network <tkbnetw@fan.net.au>
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 23:00:46 +1000
Fwd Date: Sat, 07 Aug 1999 08:13:44 -0400
Subject: Sighting Report 07.07.1999 OZ File


Sighting Report 07.07.1999 OZ File
_____________________________________

AUFORN Rep: Keith Douglass
Location: Alice Springs Northern Territory Australia.

Date: 07.07.1999
Time: 5.00am
Duration of Sighting: 1 minute
Location: 2 klm South of McGrath Creek, Stuart Highway NT

Environment which object was sighted: Australian
outback bushland

Sightee:  Mr. Desmond Nelson aged 64 years.

Report:

I was camping approximately 20klm north of Alice Springs and I
was doing some star gazing at around 5.00am and observed a dark
oval shaped shadow in the sky it was the size of a truck.

What brought my attention to it was it blocked out the stars and
when it moved away you could see the stars again.

The object had no sound it moved at a medium speed it was
approximately 60 degrees to the horizon. There was also a
brighter  star like object flashing on and off and moving around
in a limited area in the sky, then both objects just vanished.

Thankyou AUFORN Rep Kieth Douglass  for snail mailing this report.

_____________________________________________

Regards Diane Harrison

Co. Director of The Australian UFO Research Network
Australian Skywatch Director

The Keith Basterfield Network Australasia
E-Mail  tkbnetw@fan.net.au
http://www.fan.net.au/~tkbnetw/new
UFO Australian  Research Network Hot Line Number
1800 77 22 88 Free Call





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                        Re: Sheffield UFO Incident 2?

From: dave bowden <dave.bowden@cableinet.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 03 Aug 1999 16:06:48 +0000
Fwd Date: Sat, 07 Aug 1999 08:15:47 -0400
Subject: Re: Sheffield UFO Incident 2?


 >Date: Sun, 1 Aug 1999 16:39:23 -0400
 >From: Sue Addison <NevadaFighter@compuserve.com>
 >Subject: UFO UpDate: Re: Sheffield UFO Incident 2?
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>

 >>Date: Sat, 31 Jul 1999 18:55:11 +0000
 >>From: Dave Bowden <dave.bowden@cableinet.co.uk>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Sheffield UFO Incident 2?

 >>>Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 11:16:51 -0400
 >>>From: Tony Spurrier <TSpurrier@compuserve.com>
 >>>Subject: Re: Sheffield UFO Incident 2?
 >>>To: "updates@globalserve.net" <updates@globalserve.net>

 >>>I have never mentioned anything about Chris Martin's video, only
 >>>Roy and yourself have brought this into play. My original
 >>>comment was that everyone has a different standard to which they
 >>>believe a UFO is an ET craft.

 >>I need more than a ball of light in the sky to convince me that
 >>it's an ET craft too but Chris has brought this video to me for
 >>analysis and it stands up as a true UFO. ie: it's not a
 >>satellite because it's under the clouds, it changes direction,
 >>it zips off from 0 to whatever in a split second, need I say
 >>more.

 >>Your original comment also made mention of a 'lower standard'
 >>used by Roy Hale. This is laughable coming from someone who
 >>hasn't even seen the footage we are speaking of.

 >>Even though I agree it's no evidence of ET it IS evidence of the
 >>phenomena that occupies our skies. Keep the teeth clenched until
 >>you've seen the footage then start flapping the jaw.

 >>Dave.

 >PMFJI, but could you explain where Tony has ever questioned the
 >video or research of Chris Martin or Marc Bell? I've been
 >following this thread and have not seen any evidence of him even
 >hinting at this.


Hi Sue,

Possibly you are missing the point here.

Tony has clearly got something against Roy for reasons that are
beyond me (run over his cat or something), the evidence I
presented to Tony as a 'recent' case are just to show that Roy's
investigation process is by no means of a 'lower standard'.

It make's no difference to me whether Tony Spurrier is aware or
un-aware of that particular case.

Anyway, I've got more serious work to be getting on with.

Hopefully end of thread

Dave.





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                     What's Wrong With British Ufology?

From: Martin Phillips <mphillips@btinternet.com>
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 21:22:33 +0100
Fwd Date: Sat, 07 Aug 1999 08:18:24 -0400
Subject: What's Wrong With British Ufology?


Dear All,

As a subscriber to this list, I'm stunned at the vitriol spewed
forth by British ufologists about each other. Every day there's
another dispute, every day there's another insult.

I'd like to know what purpose all this serves - and don't you
think that it undermines your credibility when the general level
of debate is so low.

I may be naive, but perhaps if you stopped insulting each other
and listened for a minute, you may learn something.

I hope this isn't taken as a troll message - take it as a plea
for calm and reason.






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                         Re: Nick Pope's Weird World

From: Jenny Randles <nufon@currantbun.com>
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 21:50:26 +0100
Fwd Date: Sat, 07 Aug 1999 08:23:21 -0400
Subject: Re: Nick Pope's Weird World


Hi,

Further to my message re Georgina Bruni and her Rendlesham book,
I should add a sequel.

Georgina and I have talked this out between us over the lasat 24
hours and have reached an understanding. I am happy with the
intent she has for her book as she has explained it to me and we
were both victims of something of a mutual misunderstanding
brought about by others. She has promised me her book will not
delve into politics and the silly tales doing the rounds about
me. I have promised to assist her questions on the early days of
the Rendlesham case, which I will over the next few days.

I wanted to post this message as it offers a positive bit of
news. What look like irreconcilable differences can be resolved
if you suspend judgement, are willing to listen and to talk
through your problems. The medium of the internet can hinder
communication via the inability to hear emphasis or judge
meaning behind words often written in haste, but it can in cases
like this assist it too. Just thought you'd like to know about a
problem solved rather than one created.

Best wishes,






   UFO UpDates
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   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Aug > Aug 7

                                  Re: IFOs

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
Date: Tue, 03 Aug 99 18:26:41 PDT
Fwd Date: Sat, 07 Aug 1999 17:05:12 -0400
Subject: Re: IFOs


 >Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 23:27:55 +0100
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
 >From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
 >Subject: Re: IFOs

 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
 >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >>Subject: Re: IFOs
 >>Date: Sat, 31 Jul 99 10:27:32 PDT

 >>>Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 22:43:35 +0100
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
 >>>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>

 >>>Subject: Re: IFOs


Hi, John,

Are you sure you want to go through all this again?  Haven't
we been through this before?  It seems to me that we even
ended up the subject of a Fortean Times column awhile ago.
Why this compulsion to revisit the scene of the crime?

Oh, well....

 >>I am proud not to be a pelicanist, or psychosociologist, or
 >>whatever the proper name for your continuing exercise in
 >>ridicule-avoidance.

 >What's all this about "ridicule avoidance"? Do you seriously
 >think that I and other sceptical ufologists (not just in
 >Britain, by the way) have adopted our views just to placate some
 >mysterious group of people who apparently have nothing better to
 >do that go around jeering at a random collection of UFOs?

I think you've shown your hand when you resort to the sort
of transparent rhetorical device which leads you to conjure
up a "mysterious group of people who apparently have nothing
better to do that [sic] go around jeering at a random collection
of UFOs"?  First, the second part of that sentence makes even
less sense than the first does, and second, the first part
transparently begs the question of the large role ridicule has
played in the UFO controversy over the decades.  As, of course,
you well know.  Disingenuity doesn't suit you, John.

I stand by my point, and I am amused to see a psychosocial
theorist -- of all people -- disputing the effect of the
psychological and social fact of ridicule of ufologists and UFO
witnesses (not

"a random collection of UFOs," whatever that's supposed to
mean).  The arguments of the PSH school are so flimsy on their
face that to understand them, one has to look at the psychology
and sociology of this particular school of belief.  Of course this
drives people like you crazy, even though you're routinely
focusing comparable analyses on everybody else.  As Edward
G. Robinson famously said, "You've been dishin' out so long
you can't take it no more!"

 >Then you don't read it very well. We have never denied that
 >there are anomalous UFOs. We just don't automatically jump to
 >the conclusion that they are physical spacecraft.

Stop being disingenuous, John.  Among other things, it's
boring.  If you are against conclusion-jumping, then we are
in full agreement.  Where we disagree, I suspect, that you're
only against jumping to those conclusions that you haven't
jumped to yourself.  Lively, entertaining, and literate though
it be, Magonia is no stranger to conclusion-jumping.  To the
contrary, it's as full of such movement as a poolful of frogs.
My word, last time around you were even defending, or sort of
defending, Peter Rogerson's hilarious conclusion-jumping
about the relationship of America's Hispanic population to
its alien-abduction experiences.


 >>The rest of you are referred to the UFO literature.  For some
 >>convincingly documented cases which have stubbornly withstood
 >>the assaults of pelicanists, see The UFO Encyclopedia, 2nd Ed.,
 >>on the Coyne CE2 (254-57), Portland County Sightings (719-27),
 >>RB-47 case (761-90), or the Socorro CE2/CE3 (856-67).  To cite
 >>just a very small number.

 >Ah, ha! So finally you've listed your "best cases"! After about
 >a year of asking.

I have repeatedly referred you to my UFO Encyclopedia and also
to the larger UFO literature.  Given  your position, I can understand
why you wouldn't want to read it.

 >>Amusingly, no less than the eminent
 >>historian of astronomy Steven Dick recently stated (at a private
 >>gathering of UFO historians held

 >- in a telephone booth? -

Is that a joke?  Well, let me tell you the one about how many
psychosocial theorists it takes to change a lightbulb.....  Oh,
never mind.  It might create an international incident.

 >>in Chicago late this past May)
 >>that "evidence" in science is always a matter of dispute and
 >>negotiation; he went on to say that ufologists' evidence is
 >>entirely reasonable in that context (the history of scientific
 >>disputation), and he said what we're doing is well worth doing.

 >Very amusing. Bet you didn't pin him down and ask him if he
 >thought UFOs were extraterrestrial spacecraft, though, did you?

Huh?  I'm afraid your point escapes me, unless it's to change
the subject, and if I were you, I'd do the same.

 >This strikes me as the sort of nice non-committal statement that
 >a polite guest at a private gathering would say. I wonder just
 >how much negotiation is possible about, say, the second law of
 >thermodynamics? I fact, on re- reading it the statement seems to
 >reflect a sort of post-modernist cultural relativism normally
 >associated with French philosophers and, erm, English majors.

You weren't there, John, and it shows, I'm afraid.  But not knowing
something has never stopped a psychosocial theorist, in my
observation.

 >>Asked why he believed in one controversial phenomenon, which
 >>skeptics have charged is based solely on misidenti- fications
 >>and hoaxes, a scientist of world-class reputation has stated the
 >>following:

 >>"Though ... I have never seen the phenomenon personally, I feel
 >>that there is no question that [this phenomenon] exists. I have
 >>talked to six eyewitnesses of the phenomena and think there is
 >>no reasonable doubt as to the authenticity of their
 >>observations.


 >>"Furthermore, the reports are all remarkably
 >>similar and have common features with the hundreds of
 >>observations that appear in the literature."

 >Yes, just like the hundreds of ghost stories, encounters with
 >Satan, messages from spirits, memories of past lives, etc.,
 >etc., etc. This is just the old "I can get it for you wholesale"
 >school of research, where we are meant to be impressed by the
 >sheer number reports.

And ball lightning -- which some psychosocial theorists have
even suggested explain otherwise unaccounted-for UFO reports.
I'm afraid you've just made my point for me. Scientists do think
like ufologists.

 >>What a dope.  Obviously, this true believer has never read The
 >>UFO Handbook or Magonia,

 >I'm puzzled. Are you comparing The UFO Handbook to Magonia, as
 >two "pelicanist" publications, and suggesting that the Handbook
 >dismisses UFO reports with "grand rhetorical gestures?

Any more of this disingenuous play-acting and I think I am going
to pass into a deep, deep slumber.  For the rest of you: remember,
it's John and his fellow pelicanists who are always citing The UFO
Handbook as some sort of definitive validation of their position.
It isn't, of course, but John can't seem to grasp that he was being
ribbed here.  If I didn't know you better, my friend, I'd wonder if
you have a sense of humor.

 >>Long live the iconoclasm of American ufology, and long may it
 >>thrive.  Too bad British ufology -- or at least that end of it
 >>that's wandering aimlessly through the library stacks -- has
 >>lost its way.

 >Jerry, go to your local library (I suppose they do have one in
 >Canby), get a card, talk to the librarians. They are quiet,
 >gentle people who will treat you kindly, and help you to get
 >over this crippling fear you have of my respected profession. We
 >only really get threatening if you keep your books overdue!

John, I'm afraid you're talking about _British_ librarians.  In
this country only thugs, ex-cons, and sociopaths get hired to
attend libraries.  Late at night you can see them prowling the
streets, heavily armed, chewing on cheap cigars, and chasing
down terrified children and little old ladies with overdue books
and dealing out street justice.  No, I'm going to stay away from
those guys!

Fearfully,






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Aug > Aug 7

                           Re: Arnold Saw Pelicans

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 11:12:11 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 07 Aug 1999 17:18:45 -0400
Subject: Re: Arnold Saw Pelicans


 >From: Asgeir W. Skavhaug <asge-s@online.no>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
 >Subject: Re: Arnold Saw Pelicans
 >Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 20:29:39 +0200

 >>From: Kathleen Anderson <KAnder6444@aol.com>
 >>Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 21:32:59 EDT
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Kenneth Arnold's 'Flying Discs'

 >>>From: Roger Evans>moviestuff@cyberjunkie.com>
 >>>Date: Sat, 24 Jul 1999 21:35:20 +0000
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
 >>>Subject: Kenneth Arnold's 'Flying Discs'

 >><snip>

 >>>let's face it;
 >>>Arnold's stories were so inconsistent that just about anything
 >>>could fit the mold, even, I'm sorry to say, Pelicans.>


 >>Sorry, Rog, I feel like I could possibly get a brain hemmorage
 >>over the pelican theory. I can't seem to get it across that we
 >>don't have pelicans in Washington state. Canadian Geese yes,
 >>Pelicans no. But you did make a good point that there is some
 >>Arnold points that don't fit.>

 >>To James Easton, perception is a major key with the Arnold case.
 >>Its a hard thing to visualize when you are sitting in the UK. A
 >>map will never take the place of being at the actual location. I>

<snip>

 >>I am off again this weekend to Mt. Rainier. I will take plenty
 >>of video if anyone is interesting in seeing. Granted I am not
 >>totally convinced Arnold had a good perspective of any object
 >>near Mt. Baker over 60 miles to the north. It would have to be a
 >>large object to see it. Much bigger than a 747!>

 >>No, I am not the expert here. But I have yet to come across many
 >>other people who can match my hours over the years of sitting,
 >>hiking and sleeping on that mountain wondering what Kenneth
 >>Arnold did actually see.

 >>P.S. But of course I've really enjoyed the debate of it all!!!

 >>Kathleen Andersen
 >>MUFON State Section Director
 >>Seattle
-----------------------------------

 >>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >>Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 10:44:11 -0400
 >>Fwd Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 15:47:49 -0400>>>


 >>Subject: Re: Arnold Saw Pelicans

 >>EASTON MAKES GRAB FOR PUBLICITY
 >>BECOMES THE LATEST TO BE STUCK TO
 >>THE ARNOLD-EXPLANATION-TARBABY>

 >>James Easton has gone public with his pelican theory.>

 >>>N E W S R E L E A S E

<snip>

 >>From: Asgeir W. Skavhaug <asge-s@online.no>
 >>Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 18:42:04 +0200
 >>Fwd Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 16:17:30 -0400
 >>Subject: Re: Kenneth Arnold Sighting

<snip>

 >>>- One of the planes were different from the others. Not much
 >>>attention has been paid to this

<snip>

 >>The leading craft up in the front of the chain
 >>could be a Northrop, tail-less, flying wing construction (an
 >>early YB-49 prototype, or scaled model?). (I don't believe very
 >>much in the "pelican theory".)


 >Hi List,

 >Well, for some reason I just wanted to dig somewhat deeper into
 >this material and find out something more about the AW pelicans.>

 >About pelicans in the Washington state, the following URL can be
 >contacted (The Pelican Watch Page):

 >http://ecocanada.com/seepel/wwwboard.html

 >So I did, and here's my e-mail:

 >http://ecocanada.com/seepel/messages/263.html

 >with the following excerpt:

 >"I'm wondring whether any of you on this List know if American
 >White Pelicans are observed in Washington State in May, June,
 >July? Maybe in the Cascade Mountains, Mt. Baker, etc. How about
 >30 to 40 years ago? I'm also wondring whether they're flying in
 >some sort of formation; a chain or step-wise formation, for
 >instance, with the leader at the front, and higher up than the
 >others."

 >Note that I -- with purpose -- when submitting this mail, didn't
 >mention neither "Mt. Renier", "50 years ago" or "echelon
 >formation", to avoid any, more direct, links to Arnold's
 >sighting.



 >The answer from The Pelican Watch Page was:

 >http://ecocanada.com/seepel/messages/264.html

 >with excerpt:

 >"Hi... yes, AWPs are found in Washington State - your state Fish
 >and Wildlife people contacted us a few years ago. As about the
 >movies of them in flight... good idea! we'll work at it, perhaps
 >not immediately, but soon I hope. Yes, they do fly in formation
 >normally... undulating "Vs" or "Ls" with the leader flapping
 >first, and the others following in a sort of wave. These birds
 >are terrific at rising on thermals, soaring incredibly high
 >before striking out in their direction of choice..">

 >>Note specifically here that the "undulating" movements in the
 >air is also a description used by media etc., e.g., "undulating
 >like a "saucer" skipping over water". Also note that the birds
 >seem use to shift formation shape, from Vs (like geese) to Ls,
 >and vice versa. Possibly also forming a long chain.

<snip>

Your research into pelicans is commendable. However, except for
Kathleen Anderson, none of the participants in the debate up to
now argued that there were no pelicans. If there were no
pelicans now, and never had been in Washington State, then it
would have been impossible for Arnold to see pelicans flying
about 20 miles west of Mt. Rainier. However, pelicans DO EXIST
(!) and they CAN FLY LONG DISTANCES (!) and hence it is not
impossible that Arnold could have seen pelicans.

However, what is "impossible" for me to imagine is that he
could have mistaken pelicans within a mile or so of his airplane
for metallic, shiny semicircular-shaped objects 20 miles away.
It is impossible to imagine for reasons I have outlined.

 >It is clear that the following elements in AWP sightings are in
 >common with Arnold's sighting:

 >* AWPs are observed in the Washington state (but, I guess they
 >were appearing more frequently about 50 years ago than today).

Looks like an opportunity for bird watching

 >* Everyone -- lucky to watch them -- are excited by their
 >appearance.

Not an important argument (and I bet :"everyone" is not
"excited")

* The pelicans are following the wind speeds (which can be high,
 >with wind gusts); they're rising on air currents and prevailing
 >winds to great heights -- to several thousand feet -- along the
 >mountains; they are terrific at rising on thermals, soaring
 >incredibly high before striking out in their direction of
 >choice.

We have heard of a top speed of 50 mph and an altitude over
10,000 ft. No on has provided proof that the birds would fly
long distances at high altitude and high speed. Don't know about
the possibility of thermals 20 miles west of Rainier. We do
know from Arnold's report it was good flying weather which
generally means low wind or at least low wind shear (a uniformly
moving air mass).

 >* Their leader usually seems to be different in appearance than
 >the others.

Not a difference in shape, but color. Arnold clearly reported a
difference in shape.


 >* They do fly in formation normally... undulating "Vs" (and also
 >flying like geese) or "Ls" with the leader flapping first, and
 >the others following in a sort of wave.

And, as other's have pointed out, they fly close together...
like tens of feet separating them.

 >* They seem to be synchronized in their flying pattern, also
 >when diving for food into the water.

Good thing Arnol didn't report a saucer diving down and coming
up with a big fish.

 >* They seem have a bright appearance in the sunshine.

Seem? Or do have a "bright" appearance. Question: has anyone
reported a pelican reflecting sunlight like a mirror or like a
shiny glint from a distant airplane (so distant you can't see
the airplnane, only the glint).


 >Thus, the pelican theory might hold if we assume that:

 >* Arnold (significantly) overestimated their formation speed
 >(but depends on the local wind speeds/gusts, above/along the
 >mountain sides, that day).

IT would have required an immense overestimate regardless
of the weather conditions at the time.


 >* The size of the individual craft (object) was (significantly)
 >overestimated; Arnold was actually closer to the objects than
 >reported.

Yes, about 1/20 of the distance which would make several foot
sized objects have the same apparent (i.e., angular) size as
very distant ones(e.g., 4 ft at 1 miles has the same angular
size as 80 ft at 20 miles).

But, of course, the problem with being close is that Arnold's
plane would outrun the birds. DRAW A MAP!!!!!

 >But this might very well be the case, since he became very
 >excited as he spotted the objects.

Very excited? Excited enough to become completely illogical
and incapable of distinguishing near from far?

I doubt it. AFter all, he made measurements and did "tests" to
confirm his impressions (comparing with a distant aircraft,
using a cowling tool, using his clock, turning his airplane and
rolling down the window). His report sounds very "level headed"
and to me and not at all "flighty" .... as is your reasoning
here.

 >And further, that the following assumptions are valid:

 >* Arnold lacked money, and saw some business opportunities in
t>he story after being influenced by the media people. (Very
 >common these days as well, in connection with UFO reports.)

Absolutely no evidence of this.

This is not the first suggestion that it was a hoax (whether made up
completely or inspired by a rare pelican sighting). However,
NONE of the previous scientific investigators proposed hoax, after
reading Arnold's report, and after the FBI and Air Force
checked up on him. Cancel this one!

* Arnold wanted attention and publicity (and maybe this could
positively affect his company). (Very common these days as well,
in connection with UFO reports.)

Absolutely no evidence of this. Another version of the hoax
argument. Chuck it! (Throw it out).

 >* Arnold actually did see the objects, but was exaggerating when
 >talking to the media about the event and the objects'
 >appearance; he let it sound more of an adventure, perhaps having
 >in mind the Flash Gordon stories, and the Orson Welles' story on
 >the radio 10 years earlier. (But I don't think he ever mentioned
 >the objects as coming from an other world/planet.)

Arnold never gave the slightest hint that he was exaggerating or
expanding on anything. The type of person who does this
(sociopath or "con - man", with "con" short for "confidence")
generally can't help himself and he never stops .... stretching
the truth beyond believability.

 >And, after some revisions in my opinions, as more information
 >has become available -- and also using Occam's razor -- I now
 >tend to believe that the objects were pelicans in a formation
 >along the Cascade mountains, and also being aware of that such
 >an observation event is indeed a (very) rare one in the
 >Washington state -- maybe much less than once-in-a -lifetime
 >event.

A "less than once in a lifetime event." HAHAHAHA May I suggest
you take Occam's Razor and shave off the pelicans (unless you
can prove pelicans can fly faster than 100 mph at 9,200 ft
altitude)





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Aug > Aug 7

                      Re: Obtaining The COMETA Rreport?

From: Gildas Bourdais <GBourdais@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 12:40:45 EDT
Fwd Date: Sat, 07 Aug 1999 17:23:35 -0400
Subject: Re: Obtaining The COMETA Rreport?


 >Date: Mon, 02 Aug 1999 23:01:59 +0200
 >From: Perry Petrakis - SOS OVNI <sosovni@pacwan.fr>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
 >Subject: Re: Obtaining The COMETA Rreport?


 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
 >>From: Keith Rowell <krowell@mail.teleport.com>
 >>Subject: Obtaining The COMETA Rreport?

 >Is this report available somewhere on the Internet in French or
 >English? Thanks for any help you can give me in locating a copy.

 >KR

Perry Petrakis has answered this, to which I wish to bring
corrections and complements :

 >This report is heavily copyrighted material published by a
 >commercial publication and not an official document free of
 >rights. It is therefore unavailable over the net.


This document is not "heavily copyrighted". It is just very
normaly copyrighted, and the copyright belongs to the
association COMETA, collective author of the document.

It is not yet on the internet, but I have made a summary, which
is approved by the association COMETA. I have sent it to my
friend Michael Lindemann, who asked for it, and who has just
published it in his CNI Newsletter (August 1). Now I am going to
send it to UFO Updates and anyone will be free to copy my text.
If you care to receive the report itself, I will send it to you
provided you reimburse me the price and postage. I have saved a
few copies for that.

Now, if you want to translate it and publish it (perhaps on
internet ?), you should write to the administrator of the
association COMETA, who owns the copyright and translation
rights:

Mr Michel Algrin 25, Boulevard Saint-Germain
75005 Paris, France

Regards,

Gildas Bourdais





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Aug > Aug 7

                       Summary of French COMETA Report

From: Gildas Bourdais <GBourdais@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 12:40:50 EDT
Fwd Date: Sat, 07 Aug 1999 17:31:56 -0400
Subject: Summary of French COMETA Report


Hello to all List members

Here is my summary of the French COMETA report, free for
copy and publishing, provided its contents are respected.

Best regards,
Gildas Bourdais


The French Report on UFOs and Defence: a short presentation
by Gildas Bourdais

It must be stressed here that this is an independant report,
written by a private association called COMETA. It is summarized
here with the approval of the authors.

To translate and publish the report itself, in part or in its
integrality, permission should be asked by writing to the
administrator of the association COMETA, Mr Michel Algrin, 25,
boulevard Saint-Germain, 75005 Paris, France.



On Friday 16 of July 1999 was published in France an outstanding
document, called "UFOs and Defence. What must we be prepared for
?" ("Les OVNI et la Dfense. A quoi doit-on se prparer?") This
ninety pages report is the result of an in depth study of UFOs,
covering many aspects of the subject, especially questions of
defence.

The study was carried out during several years by an independant
group of former "auditors" at the very serious Institute of
Higher Studies for National Defence, or IHEDN ("Institut des
hautes tudes de dfense nationale"), and of qualified experts
from various fields. Before its public release, it has been sent
to French President of the Republic Jacques Chirac, and to Prime
minister Lionel Jospin.


This Report is prefaced by General Bernard Norlain, of the Air
Force, former Director of IHEDN, and it begins with a preamble
by Andr Lebeau, former President of the National Center for
Space Studies ("Centre national d'tudes spatiales", CNES),the
French equivalent of NASA.

The group itself, collective author of the report, is an
association of experts, many of whom are or have been auditors
of IHEDN, and it is presided over by General Denis Letty, of the
Air Force, former auditor(FA) of IHEDN. Its name "COMETA" stands
for "Committee for in depth studies".

A non exhaustive list of members is given at the beginning, and
it is impressive enough. It includes:

General Bruno Lemoine, of the Air Force (FA of IHEDN), Admiral
Marc Merlo (FA of IHEDN). Michel Algrin, Doctor in Political
Sciences, attorney at law (FA of IHEDN), General Pierre Bescond,
engineer for armaments (FA of IHEDN), Denis Blancher, Chief
National Police superintendant at the Ministry ot the Interior,
Christian Marchal, chief engineer of the national "corps des
Mines", Research Director at the "National Office of
Aeronautical Research" (ONERA), General Alain Orszag, Phd in
physics, engineer for armaments.

The committee also expresses its gratitude to outside
contributors, among whom:

Jean-Jacques Vlasco, head of SEPRA at CNES, Franois Louange,
President of Fleximage, specialist of photo analysis, General
Joseph Domange, of the Air Force, general delegate of the
Association of auditors at IHEDN.


General Norlain tells in a short preface how this committee was
created. General Letty came to see him in March 1995, when he
was Director of IHEDN, to discuss his project of committee on
UFOs. Norlain assured him of his interest and addressed him to
the Association of Auditors (AA) of IHEDN, which in turn gave
him its support.

It is interesting to recall here that, twenty years ago, it was
a report of that same Association which led to the creation of
GEPAN, the first unit for UFO study, at CNES.

As a result, several members of the committee come from the
Association of Auditors of IHEDN,joined by other experts. Most
of them hold, or have held, important functions in defence,
industry, teaching, research,or various central administrations.
General Norlain expresses hope that this report will help
develop new efforts nationally, and an indispensable
international cooperation.

General Letty, as president of COMETA, points to the main theme
of the report, which is that the accumulation of well documented
observations compells us now to consider all hypotheses as to
the origin of UFOs, especially extraterrestrial hypotheses.

The committee then presents the contents of the study: In a
first part, presentation of some remarkable cases, both French
and foreign; In a second part, they describe the present
organization of research in France and abroad, and studies made
by scientists worldwide which may bring partial explanations, in
accordance with known laws of physics. The main global
explanations are then reviewed, from secret crafts to
extraterrestrial manifestations; In a third part, will be
examined measures to be taken regarding defence, from
information of pilots, both civilian and military, to strategic,
political and religious consequences, should the
extraterrestrial hypothesis be confirmed.


Part I: "Facts and Testimonies"

Many of the cases selected are well known by most researchers,
and need only to be mentioned here. They are:

-Testimonies of French pilots. M. Giraud, pilot of MirageIV
(1977); Colonel Bosc, fighter pilot (1976); Air France flight
AF 3532 (jan 1994).

-Aeronautical cases world wide. Lakenheath (1956); RB-47 (1957)
; Teheran (1976); Russia (1990); San Carlos de Bariloche
(Argentina, 1995).

-Observations from the ground. Tananarive (1954); observation
of a saucer near the ground by a French pilot, J.-P. Fartek
(1979); observation at close range over a Russian missile site,
by several witnesses (1989).

-Close encounters in France. Valensole (Maurice Masse, 1965);
Cussac, Cantal (1967); Trans-en-Provence (1981); Nancy
(so called case of the "Amaranth" 1982).

-Counter-exemples of elucidated phenomena (two cases).

Although the selection is limited, it seems to be sufficient to
convince an uninformed but open minded reader of the reality of
UFOs.


Part II: "The Present State of Knowledge"

The second part, entitled "the present state of knowledge" ("Le
point des connaissances"), begins with a survey of the
organization of the official UFO research in France, from the
first intructions given to the "gendarmerie" in 1974 for the
redaction of reports, to the creation of GEPAN in 1977, its
organization and its results: collection of more than 3,000
reports from the gendarmerie, cases studies, statistical
analyses. It then surveys agreements passed by GEPAN and, later,
SEPRA, with the air force and the army, the civilian aviation
and other organs, such as civilian and military laboratories for
the analysis of samples, and photographies.

Regarding the methods and results, we are reminded of some
famous cases (Trans-en-Provence, l'Amarante), and emphasis is
made on the the catalogues of cases, notably of pilots
(Weinstein catalogue), and "radar/visual", world wide. A
historical note appears here with a quotation of the famous
letter of General Twining, of september 1947, asserting already
to the reality of UFOs.

The following chapter, called "hypotheses and attempts at
modeling" ("OVNI: hypothses,essais de modlisation") discusses
some models and hypotheses which are under study in several
countries.

Partial simulations have already been made for UFO propulsion,
based on observations of aspects such as: speed, movements and
accelerations, engine failure of nearby vehicles, paralysis of
witnesses.

One model is MHD propulsion, already tested successfully in
water, and wich might be achieved in the atmosphere with
superconducting circuits, in a few decades. Other studies are
briefly mentioned, regarding both atmospheric and space
propulsion, such as particle beams, antigravity, reliance on
planetary and stellar impulsion.

The failure of land vehicle engines may be explained by
microwave radiations. In fact, high power hyperfrequency
generators are under study in France and other countries. One
application is micro wave weapons. Particle beams, for instance
proton beams, which ionize the air and become therefore visible,
might explain the observation of truncated luminous beams. Micro
waves might explain body paralysis.

In the same chapter are next studied "global hypotheses". Hoaxes
are rare and easily detected. Some non-scientific are put aside,
such as conspiration and manipulation by very secret, powerful
groups, parapsychic phenomena, collective hallucinations. The
hypothesis of secret weapons is also regarded as very
improbable, the same as "intoxication" at the time of the cold
war, or just natural phenomena.

We are then left with various extraterestrial hypotheses. One
version has been developed in France by astronomers Jean-Claude
Ribes and Guy Monnet, based on the concept of "space islands" of
American physicist O'Neill, and it is compatible with present
day physics.

The organization of UFO research in the United States,
Great Britain and Russia, is surveyed rapidly.

In the United States, the media and the polls show a marked
interest and concern of the public, but the official position,
especially of the Air Force, is still one of denial, more
precisely that there is no threat to national security.
Actually, declassified documents, released under FOIA, show
another story, one of surveillance of nuclear installations by
UFOs, and the continued study of UFOs by the military and
intelligence agencies.

The report stresses the importance, in the United States, of
private, independant associations. It mentions the "Briefing
Document. Best available evidence" sent in 1995 to a thousand
personalities worldwide, and the Sturrock workshop in 1997, both
sponsored by Laurance Rockefeller. The "Briefing Document" has
obviously been welcomed by the authors of the COMETA report. The
committee also notes the public emergence of alleged insiders
such as Colonel Philip Corso, and considers that his testimony
may be partly significant as to the real situation in that
country, in spite of many critics.

The report describes briefly the situation in Great Britain,
with a special mention for Nick Pope, and poses the question of
the possible existence of secret studies pursued jointly with
American services. It mentions as well research in Russia, and
the release of some information, notably by the KGB in 1991.


Part III: UFOs and Defence

The third part, "UFOs and Defence" ("Les OVNI et la dfense"),
states that, if it is true that no hostile action has been
proved yet, at least some actions of "intimidation" have been
recorded in France (case of of the Mirage IV for instance).
Since the extraterrestrial origin of UFOs cannot be ruled out,
it is therefore necessary to study the consequences of that
hypothesis at the strategic level, but also political, religious
and media/public information levels.

The first chapter ofPart III is devoted to prospective
strategies ("Prospectives stratgiques") and it begins with
fundamental questions: "What if extraterrestrials? What
intentions and what strategy can we deduce from their behavior
?"

Such questions open a more controversial part of the report.
Possible motivations of extraterrestrial visitors are explored
here, such as protection of planet Earth against the dangers of
nuclear war, suggested for instance by repeated flying over
nuclear missile sites.

The committee then ponders the possible repercussion on the
behavior, official or not, of different states, and focuses on
the possibility of secret, privileged contacts which might be
"attributed to the United States". The attitude of the U.S. is
seen as "most strange" since the 1947 wave and the Roswell
event. Since that time, a policy of increasing secrecy seems to
have been applied, which might be explained by the protection at
all cost of military technological superiority to be acquired
from the study of UFOs.

Next, the report tackles the question: "What measures must we
take now?" At the least, whatever the nature of UFOs, they
impose "critical vigilance", in particular regarding the risk
of "destabilizing manipulations". A kind of "cosmic vigilance"
should be applied by the elites, nationally and internationally,
in order to prevent any shocking surprise, erroneous
interpretation and hostile manipulation.

Nationally, COMETA urges the strenghening of SEPRA, and
recommends the creation of a cell at the highest level of
government, entrusted with the development of hypotheses,
strategy, and preparation of cooperation agreements with
European and other foreign countries. A further step would be
that European states and the European Union undertake diplomatic
action toward the Unites States within the framework of
political and strategic alliances.

A key question of the report is "What situations must we be
prepared for?". It mentions such situations as: extraterrestrial
move for official contact; discovery of a UFO/alien base on the
territory or in Europe; invasion (deemed improbable) and
localised or massive attack; manipulation or deliberate
disinformation aiming at destabilizing other states.

COMETA devotes special attention to "aeronautical implications",
with detailed recommendations aimed at various personnels, such
as air staffs, controllers, weathermen and engineers. It also
makes recommendations at the scientific and technical levels,
aimed at developping research, with potential benefits for
defence and industry.

The report further explores the political and religious
implications of UFOs, using as a model the perspective of our
own exploration of space: how would we do it, how would we
handle contacts with less advanced civilizations?

Such an approach is not new to the well informed readers of the
abundant ufological literature, but it has a special value here,
being treated seriously at such a level. The media/publicity
implications are not forgotten, with the problems of
disinformation, fear of ridicule, and manipulation by certain
groups.

In its conclusion, COMETA claims that the physical reality of
UFOs, under control of intelligent beings, is "quasi certain".
Only one hypothesis takes into account the available data: the
hypothesis of extraterrestrial visitors. This hypothesis is of
course unproved, but has far-reaching consequences. The goals of
these alleged visitors remain unknown but must be the subject of
speculations and prospective scenarios.

In its final recommendations, it stresses again the need to:

1) inform all decision-makers and persons in position of
responsibility;

2) reinforce means of investigation and study at SEPRA;

3) have UFO detection taken into account by agencies engaged
in of space surveillance;

4) create a strategic cell at the highest state level;

5) undertake diplomatic action toward the Unites States
for cooperation on this "capital question";

6) study measures which might be necessary in case of
emergencies.


Finally, this document is accompanied by seven
interesting annexes which are worth reading even
by seasoned ufologists:

-1 Radar detection in France

-2 Observations by astronomers

-3 Life in the Universe

-4 Colonization of space

-5 The Roswell case - The disinformation (an interesting text
which will be criticized by some readers, and welcomed by
others, including myself)

-6 Antiquity of the UFO phenomenon. Elements for a chronology.

-7 Reflexionn on various psychological, sociological and
political aspects ot the UFO phenomenon.

The importance of this report should not be missed by all
informed ufologists around the world, considering not only its
contents but the personality of its authors, and in spite of
critics which may be addressed to it.

In fact, some sharp critics have been made soon after the
release of the report, on the Internet, and in the French press
with an article by sociologist Pierre Lagrange curiously
denouncing an operation of disinformation by way of ridiculing
the subject ("Libration of July 21, 1999). Let's hope that the
present summary will help clarify the debate.





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   Aug > Aug 7

                          Would You Bet The Ranch?

From: Stephen G. Bassett <ParadigmRG@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 03:33:08 EDT
Fwd Date: Sat, 07 Aug 1999 17:42:34 -0400
Subject: Would You Bet The Ranch?


August 5, 1999

Colleagues and friends,

On July 11, 1991 the biggest UFO flap in history began in Mexico
during a solar eclipse.  One of the many outcomes of this flap
was to raise the awareness level to UFO/ET phenomena of a major
second world nation and by extension the rest of Latin America.

It is eight years later.  During this time enormous effort was
made to bring about formal acknowledgment of what is becoming
almost ludicrously obvious.  Nevertheless, the resistance to
open government and a public partnership has been intense.

On August 11 a new solar eclipse will swing across England -
across an area which, during the same period, has been
experiencing its own extraordinary form of provocative
exposition.  For perhaps a prosaic and personal reason, I have a
profound sense of expectation.  Do you?

Who is willing to bet the ranch our visitors are <not> going to
raise the ante again with a new, more explicit display impelling
us to get off our tuckus, grow up and get on with disclosure?

Just a late night thought.

Steve Bassett
PRG
__________________________________________

"End the government UFO cover-up, support <A
HREF="http://www.x-ppac.org">X-PPAC</A>"
__________________________________________






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                        Re: Sheffield UFO Incident 2?

From: Tony Spurrier <TSpurrier@compuserve.com>
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 18:21:11 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 07 Aug 1999 16:50:23 -0400
Subject: Re: Sheffield UFO Incident 2?


 >From: Josh Goldstein <clearlt@pacbell.net>
 >Date: Tue, 03 Aug 1999 03:21:40 -0700
 >Fwd Date: Tue, 03 Aug 1999 14:12:39 -0400
 >Subject: Re: Sheffield UFO Incident 2?

 >Please describe your "astounding feats that are possible simply
 >by talking directly to the subconsious."

Well, if you do a search on Dr. Angel Escudero you will find he
has carried out thousands of conventional surgical operations
without the use of anaesthetic, hypnosis, acupuncture etc.
Instead the patients literally just tell themselves their bodies
are anaethetised and they are then able to undergo the
operations in full waking consciousness.

So there's the example of 'astounding feats that are possible
simply by talking directly to the subconscious'.






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                           Re: Arnold Saw Pelicans

From: Kathleen Anderson <KAnder6444@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 19:23:31 EDT
Fwd Date: Sat, 07 Aug 1999 17:02:46 -0400
Subject: Re: Arnold Saw Pelicans


 >From: Asgeir W. Skavhaug <asge-s@online.no>
 >Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 18:42:04 +0200
 >Fwd Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 16:17:30 -0400
 >Subject: Re: Kenneth Arnold Sighting

Regarding your recent post:

 >"Hi... yes, AWPs are found in Washington State - your state Fish
 >and Wildlife people contacted us a few years ago. As about the
 >movies of them in flight... good idea! we'll work at it, perhaps

I checked that website and also wrote myself. First of all, this
website clearly stated that AWP winter in northern California
and summer in Texas. You quoted sightings in San Francisco and
in Denver. San Francisco is about 1,000 miles/16 hours drive
from Seattle. Denver about the same to the East

I don't think I know what country you are originating from so
cannot tell what your perception of distance and
geography/topography is. Can't compare San Francisco to Seattle
-- Seattle to Denver. Its like comparing England to Egypt. Lots
of variety in plants, people, climate, animals in between.

There is one major point all your pelican lovers are missing.
The perception of the mass of Mt. Rainier is very deceiving by
visual observation. Why do we have so many climbing accidents
every year here? Because of this reason. Its so clear and
prominent, rising from sea level to 14,410 feet in a matter of
60 miles, that is hard to actually understand its size and what
can be seen or not seen by the naked eye.

OK so I was up there this weekend. Actually on Mt. Rainier --
not observing it from 35 miles as last week. I started hiking at
Sunrise 6,100 feet and managed (huffing and puffing) to a fire
tower at 7,100 feet and about 4 "flat miles" to the summit. The
view looks like the summit is right there. But one has to
remember you are not just 4 miles away, you are also an
additional 7,000 some odd feet below it.

Being that close, I shot some video of climbers on a trail. They
were 1/2 mile from me but on another ridge. You could not make
them out without the aid of my telephoto lens. They just blended
in the mass. What's a human in size? Average 5 to 6 feet? How do
they compare to a pelican? How could you see a pelican at
Arnold's distance when you cannot even distinguish a human who
is less than a mile away from you?

These two weeks of exploration have made me think only of one
thing. If Arnold was off -- he is off on the size. What he saw
might have been much larger than he thought. But seeing
pelicans/geese/ducks/eagles/hawks above Mt. Rainier, I will
still take the stand of "no way".

Two points to ponder.

I just learned that there is actually a mountain (small) called
Mt. Baker which sits just below and part of the foothills (not
sure they are really hills) of Rainier. Then we have Mt. Baker
the volcano. The little Mt. Baker is about 4,000 feet. An
insignificant hill that has been hacked to death by the dear
Weyerhaeuser company and their big chain saws.

Secondly, I am putting together a video tape of last weeks view
and this weeks views of Mt. Rainier. Oh, I found an incredible
new road (well thank you again Weyerhaeuser for logging) that
has a great view of Rainier from about 15 miles due north.
Altitude was 6,300 feet. I am planning on sending this tape to
Bruce as he has tends to be more analytical than myself and in
hopes he will shed some light into the mystery.





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                 Re: Robert Sarbacher Letter At Auction Now

From: William Steinman <wsteinmn@pe.net>
Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 07:02:34 -0700
Fwd Date: Sat, 07 Aug 1999 17:46:27 -0400
Subject: Re: Robert Sarbacher Letter At Auction Now

[Non-subscriber post]

The Robert I. Sarbacher letter to William S. Steinman, dated
Nov. 29, 1983, is now on the auction block at eBay under item #
141895776. It is listed under Books:Non-Fiction:Paranormal.

This is the letter in which Dr. Robert I. Sarbacher, president
of the Washington Institute of Technology, admitted in writing,
for the first and only time, that the U.S. Government had
Crashed & Recovered U.F.O.'s and bodies in captivity,

This letter is considered a major piece of U.F.O. Evidence.

It goes to the highest bidder. Bidding closes on Aug. 14, 1999.

Very Sincerely
William S. Steinman





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              Sighting Reports Via UFO Scotland Website And My

From: Dave Ledger <dledger@cableinet.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 02 Aug 1999 16:03:53 +0100
Fwd Date: Sat, 07 Aug 1999 17:55:44 -0400
Subject: Sighting Reports Via UFO Scotland Website And My


Greetings listmembers,

Here are a few sighting reports received recently via the UFO
Scotland website. I thought that I would forward them on to the
various lists FYI.

Oh yes, one more thing! For the record:

The term UFO, at least to the team at UFO Scotland, means an
unidentified object of some kind and NOT an alien spaceship.
That is quite a jump with many unfounded assumptions, if we are
to assume that every unidentified craft or object spotted in our
skies, is to be an extra-terrestrial craft from another world.
If that was the case, I fear that the Human race would be
outnumbered by all these frequent visitors and our skies would
be full of these things everywhere. However, this is obviously
not the case. Lets get real and honest folks!

Here's hoping that we can all start to work together sharing our
findings and being civil to eachother, whilst we all go about
our various quests to uncover the truth behind this bizarre
phenomena. Teamwork, consideration and respect for other
researchers and their work, will achieve results through time.

If we can all be seen by the media and various authorities in
general, to be civil and supportive to eachother, perhaps
UFOLOGY will be taken a little more seriously and make a little
headway instead of the Status Quo that has been observed for the
last 50 years regarding UFO research, the way it is portrayed to
the public, the real truth and the media's involvement.

It really concerns me when I read reports from other researchers
who have been studying the ufo phenomena for the past 30,40 or
even 50 years. When I see their results and data gained during
this research time, I can see not much more than I have found
after just under three years of serious research into this
phenomena.

Are we going to be sitting here in 10, 20 or thirty years from
now with exactly the same feelings and questions?  I sure hope
not!  Not one group or researcher can do this or find all of the
hidden answers on their own. We all need eachother and have to
work together as a large and organised unit, if we want to avoid
asking these same questions again in a few decades time.

Treat others how you would like to be treated yourself, and stop
waiting for the almighty Govts of the world to tell all, cause
it won't happen anytime soon. We have to find the answers
ourselves, as a large and united worldwide research unit and not
expect the info to be given to us on a golden platter as we all
so readily do.

Construction and not Destruction folks!

Well thats my rant I guess :0)  Any and all feedback is welcome
of course.

Thanks for your time,

 >From your friend in Bonnie Scotland,

                                    Dave Ledger (UFO Scotland)

Sighting reports follow below:
************************************************************************

Name : T W
date: : 7/10/99
location: : LIVERPOOL
time : 10.50
PM : on
My_Sighting_Submission : UFO SIGHTING

I just thought i'd hang the washing out, when I suddenly felt
something was watching me, so I turned and in the distance there
was an object about 500ft up it was not an aeroplane I know that
because it was soundless it was kind of triangler shape and had
white lights beaming from the bottom I felt quite scared i ran
in to tell my dad but it was gone as if it had never been there
it was far to fast for a plane there was nothing to be seen in
the distance.

----------------------------------------------------------------

Name : t
date: : aprill 1991
location: : tebay  cumbria england
time : 10.30
PM : on
My_Sighting_Submission :

me my brother and two freinds seen an object in the sky ,it was
about the size as venus a bit bigger and brighter,at first it
moved in a straight line as a satelite would. one of my freinds
said it was a satelite,as soon as he said this the object
stopped and circled 3 times, then it zoom off zig zagging at
incredible speeds,it had changed colour by this time to a
crimson colour, then it stopped and changed to its origanal
colour of silvery white, then it became a amber colour and
started to decend slowly, going left then right, like a falling
leaf or a bit of paper,at this time the object became very
bright so bright it looked like a dot of light right in front of
your eyes, one of my freinds became frightend and decided to
return to the tent were we was camping. the object stayed
performing impossible manouveres for more than 2 hours, untill
my brother and freind returned to the tent. i kept watching then
the ufo turn colour again to silvery white, and remained
stationary like a star ,i watched it for a long time and it did
not move so i joined my freinds back in the tent. the weather at
the time was clear with a few clouds.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Name : R L
date: : 27/7/99
location: : Edinburgh
time : 1:00
AM : on
My_Sighting_Submission :

A bright white, blue and green light. Direction west Elevation
45 degrees. Moving left to right and then right to left.
Duration of sighting 1min approx.

----------------------------------------------------------------

Name : Michael James Martinez
date: : 8/1/1999
location: : Bethlehem  PA
time : Around 7:30/8:00
PM : on
My_Sighting_Submission :

It was around 7:30/8:00, and I was swimming in my aunts pool and
I got out becuase the water was getting cold and I decided to
sit on the deck of the pool to dry off. I was just sitting there
for about five miniuts and I saw this red flash of light about
two hundred feet away. I did not here any sound of what a plane
would make and just like a bat out of hell, a red orbed shaped
object appeared out of no where. It was about three hundred feet
off the ground and it just hovered and bobbed around,and just as
fast as it apered it disappeared. As astonished as I was I was
about to run in the house when I saw a jet go past and past the
jet was a bright flash and I saw someting shoot off like a
bullet. So I suppose I saw two unidentified flying objects.

----------------------------------------------------------------


Name : Aaron Crossley
date: : 6/6/99
location: : Madison, AL, USA
time : 12:05 am Central Time
AM : on
My_Sighting_Submission :

Let me start of by saying that I am quite the UFO enthusiast and
have been facsinated with anything UFO related since I was a
little kid. I got a call at about 12:05am from my friend
jessica, who was over at her boyfriend David's house with
several of my other friends. They told me that her, and everyone
at the house at the time had been out watching UFOs for a few
minutes now. I was ecstatic and went to go wake my parents. I
got my dad up and outside to come search the sky. We spotted in
the south-eastern sky a stobing light. It seemed to be high
altitude, although admitadly i'm not too good at judging
altitude. I've seen planes strobe lights and this was different.
This very bright, and not moving. It started to strobe at a
faster and faster pace until it would flash once very brightly
(Enough to light up a good bit of the sky), dissapear, and then
to my amazement re-appear in another part of the sky with
another big flash, After the big flash it beg! an slowing its
bright white blinking to the rate it was at before.  At this
point I decided I had to go get my mom, as my dad didnt want me
to wake her up the first time. When her and I got back
downstairs I walked out of my garage just in time to see it
dissapear with another white flash and reapear with another
white flash. At one point the first one flashed bright once,
another one showed up, and flew near the first at a high rate of
speed, pulling off a sharp turn torwards it. The second one was
reddish, but still flashed white sometimes. It was the most
incredible thing I have ever seen. After a good half hour  of
putting on what seemed to be some kind of show they started
moving south in dissapearing, re-apearing zig zag patterns,
until they got too far to see. I wish i had some kind of video
camera, as I would love to watch it over and over again. It was
amazing, and yet kind of creepy at the same time. I have several
witnesses, and my friend John says he saw police off! icers and
civilian spectators looking up into the sky in a convienence
store parking lots on his way home. I have not yet called the
Madison Police Department to confirm this. I did however call
the air traffic control tower at huntsville international
airport and asked them if they had any sightings or blips and
they just told me that air traffic control doesnt track anything
that they arent expecting. I kindly asked him to ask someone who
was there the night it happened, but the guy there didnt see
anything. I guess they dont look at the radar screen unless a
planes coming in. Have you guys gotten any sightings like this?
Can you refer me to some video clips that contain a similar
sighting? Do you get many sightings like this? Mail me anytime,
and I dont care about anonymity. If you wish to speak to any of
the other witnesses via phone E-mail me. I watched the news the
next day and apparantly the media didnt get wind of it, so I
really want this one to get out. Thank you for! your time.

----------------------------------------------------------------



Subject:
         ufo sighting
   Date:
         Tue, 27 Jul 1999 13:47:22 -0500
   From:
         Richard Powell <dibblee@bellsouth.net>
     To:
         UFOSCOT@cableinet.co.uk


on or about 090152 i sighted a ufo in greensboro,n.c. i observed a huge
saucer shaped object hovering between two houses. i was 15 years old at
the time and was riding my bike and only caught a glimpse of this object
because my momentum carried me to a point where on of the houses blocked
my vision.i immediately slammed on the brakes to the bike and returned
to the location of my sighting only to view a rapidly dissapearing speck
in the sky. in my best judgement, this all happened in about 10 seconds.
there were no sounds. because i did not want people to think i was
crazy, i told noone about this incident at that time.   richard m.
powell, b,ham ala
--
==================================================================
If you see someone without a smile......give them one of yours :)
******************************************************************
Posted by: Dave Ledger  (mailto:UFOSCOT@cableinet.co.uk)
VISIT "UFO SCOTLAND" AT:
<A HREF="http://wkweb5.cableinet.co.uk/dledger/">UFO Scotland.</A>
ICQ pager      http://wwp.mirabilis.com/4851425
******************************************************************
THE TRUTH IS JUST AROUND THE CORNER!..................BUT HOW FAR?
==================================================================
"The sands of time are trickling away from our dear mother Earth
  and yet we continue to fight amongst ourselves and destroy our
natural enviroment,leaving all the mess for our children and their





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                    Richard Hall's final 'Reality Check'

From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
Date: Thu, 05 Aug 1999 16:46:58 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 07 Aug 1999 18:00:58 -0400
Subject: Richard Hall's final 'Reality Check'


[I am forwarding this posting to the Project 1947 List with
permission from Richard Hall.]

Richard Hall has sent along his last column submitted to UFO
Magazine. He gave them the option of publishing it as a letter
to the editor. They did not publish it, but instead left the
readers with the impression that he was disappearing from their
pages for no specific reason.

He has allowed us to post the column here.


--
Jan Aldrich
Project 1947
http://www.project1947.com/
P. O. Box 391, Canterbury, CT 06331, USA
Telephone: (860) 546-9135


CALL ME A PURIST!

By Richard Hall


It has been my privilege to contribute a column ("The column
formerly known as Reality Check") to this magazine for several
years, and I am grateful to editor Vicki Cooper Ecker for this
opportunity. Now, however, I have decided to resign and I feel
that I owe the readers an explanation.

As I explained in a private communication, I am just old
fashioned or simple minded enough to think that UFO Magazine
should be about UFOs, not about all the other things it is
increasingly about, such as the total domination of the June
issue by Egyptian archeology. Leave borderline science (and
sometimes beyond the fringe pseudoscience) for aficionados of
same. Leave science fiction for a science fiction publication.
Leave imaginative fiction...please!

To my way of thinking UFOs are a real, physical scientific
mystery that have been swept under the carpet by the major
institutions of our society. The failure of Government to
acknowledge the problem in an open and positive way, and the
failure of conventional news media to ferret out the story
through standard methods and investigative journalism, leaves a
very confused public. When we, the advocates of a real mystery,
mix in other oddball or offbeat ideas with UFOs and toss in
fiction and imagination, it can only lead to further confusion.

There is a clearcut need for good investigative journalism,
which Vicki and Don Ecker have demonstrated an aptitude for. But
whatever economic imperatives or organizational biases are at
work, UFO Magazine has drifted more and more toward subject
matter that has little if anything to do with UFOs. The tone of
the magazine has become uncomfortably close to anti-scientific
or anti-establishment, often entertaining some pretty far-out
notions in the process as if they were more accurate than
present knowledge.

It won't do to simply say that mainline science or scholarship
doesn't have all the answers, and that reasonable alternative
explanations are being offered. Good "borderline science"
(Fortean) research obviously is needed in many areas, and
science needs to wake up to strong evidence of anomalies. But
credible scholarship on the part of some contributing authors
often is lacking. The disc-plane article in the May issue, for
example, is simply bad history.

The speculations about alleged operational U.S. "flying saucer"
craft are totally unsupported by any objective, documented
evidence. The notion that the 1947 Arnold sighting and the 1950
McMinnville, Oregon, photographs (among other cases) could have
been secret U.S. disc craft is, frankly, nonsense. In neither
case did the UFO perform like conventional craft. Arnold's UFOs
oscillated and flipped. The Oregon object hovered silently.

Beyond that, there is not an iota of evidence that any of the
proposed aircraft ever became operational. Lots of patents and
other "paper plans" for unusual aircraft exist, but not the
actual craft itself. The AVRO "saucer" clearly never went beyond
the air cushion machine stage. Also, the author's quaint notion
that the 1955 Air Force photograph showed an actual craft in
flight is laughable. The double image is a fake.

When this sort of blatant speculation is presented as if it were
somehow superior to current knowledge, and slick "theories"
(here and elsewhere) are advanced that far outstrip good
evidence, sensible and scholarly people can only wince. Half-
baked theories are a dime a dozen, and contaminate the UFO field
on a regular basis.

Meanwhile, the relationship of many feature articles to the
serious, factual UFO mystery ranges from tenuous to nonexistent.
Already this year we have seen articles about a killer asteroid,
the future mission of the Air Force, and human evolution. We
have also seen Peter Gersten in a funny looking robe traipsing
around in the desert in pursuit of an obvious hoax. We have seen
issues devoted to fake photographs, even on how to fake
photographs, up to and including a rehash of the now thoroughly
discredited Billy Meier fakes.

To be sure, we have had some good reporting during this period,
including the very fine February issue devoted largely to pilot
sightings and the April issue with interesting material about
UFOs and Russia. Here and there some good news items have been
reported, but seldom good quality feature articles on the
primary topic: UFOs. A lot of good UFO research work is being
done out there which is essentially ignored.

A bothersome fact is that we seldom see contributions by or
about any of the mainline active ufologists or the many sane,
grounded individual researchers who work mainly out of the
limelight. In abduction research, people like Budd Hopkins,
David Jacobs, Ray Fowler. Solid mainline researchers like Don
Berliner, Rob Swiatek, Tom Deuley, Mark Rodeghier, Michael
Swords. Worthy historical researchers like Barry Greenwood, Jan
Aldrich, Loren Gross, Jerry Clark, Wendy Connors, and Michael
Hall.

A fascination with the much contaminated Roswell case (even
though I consider it valid at the core) hides the fact that
there are many other so-called crash-retrieval cases well worth
digging into. Innumerable impressive physical evidence cases.
Major accomplishments in archival research that people need to
know about. But, as I have repeatedly protested in my column,
these things apparently are not "sexy" enough for the "spiritual
questors" and other people who want final answers, now, if not
yesterday. Imagination plays a supporting role in human
endeavor, but it is not a valid substitute for grounded,
scholarly research.

I deeply regret this drift toward some kind of least common
denominator. The magazine could continue to play an important
role by focusing on investigative journalism, case studies,
sensible historical research, and news reporting. But that does
not appear to be in the cards. Therefore, I cannot in good
conscience continue to "play along" in hopes that UFO Magazine
will evolve into the badly needed publication it could be. All
the signs suggest otherwise.

And so I say, thanks for hearing me out. I will continue to
fight for my principles and present my viewpoint elsewhere.






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                          Filer's Files #31 --1999

From: George A. Filer <Majorstar@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 18:32:38 EDT
Fwd Date: Sat, 07 Aug 1999 18:09:02 -0400
Subject: Filer's Files #31 --1999


Filer's Files #31 --1999,  MUFON Skywatch Investigations
George A. Filer, Director, Mutual UFO Network Eastern
August 5, 1999,   Majorstar@aol.com  (609) 654-0020

ROSWELL SPACECRAFT HELPED DEVELOP OUR SPY PLANES

Aviation artist William M. McDonald writes, "Now that legendary
Lockheed engineer and Chief model kit designer for the Testor
Corporation, John Andrews is dead, I can announce that he
personally confirmed the design connection between the Roswell
Spacecraft and the Lockheed Martin Unmanned Combat Air Vehicles
(UCAVs), spy planes, Joint Strike Fighters, and Space Shuttles."
How can anyone miss the comparison that my
Stingray/Porpoise-like Chimaera design has in common with the
three "Aurora" planes, the F-117 Nighthawk, the TR-3A "Black
Manta," and even the original old YF-12A/SR-71 Blackbird spy
planes of Kelly Johnson's Genius?  John Andrews was a close
personal friend of "Skunk Works" CEO Ben Rich, the hand picked
successor of Kelly Johnson, the man famous for the F-117
Nighthawk "Stealth" fighter, it's half-pint prototype the HAVE
BLUE, and the top secret F-19 Stealth Interceptor.  Before Rich
died of cancer, Andrews took my questions to him and Rich
confirmed:

1.  There are two types of UFOs.  The ones we build, and the
ones THEY build.  We learned from both crash retrievals and
actual "Hand-me-downs." The Government knew, and until 1969 took
an active hand    in the administration of that information.
After the 1969 Nixon 'Purge,' administration was handled by an
international board of directors in the private sector.

2.  'An item,' as opposed to 'The item' was recovered near the
world's only combat operational atom bomb base (Roswell AAF) in
1947.  Hull design,  aerodynamic measurements, propulsion info
was passed directly to Jack Northrop and Kelly Johnson,
beginning in 1950.  A major block of data being passed on from
'The Working Group' at Wright Patterson AFB's Foreign
Technologies Division in 1952.  The  item refers to the top
secret designation of Kelly's original variant of the U-2 (TR-1)
spy plane in congressional and Pentagon budgets in the 1950s.

3.  Nearly all 'Biomorphic' aerospace designs were inspired by
the Roswell spacecraft from Kelly's SR-71 Blackbird, onward to
today's drones, UCAVs, and aerospace craft.

4.  The inward canted vertical stabilizers of the F-19, the HAVE
BLUE, many drones, some UCAVs, and the SR-71 matched the 30
degrees inward cant of the Roswell spacecraft's shark fin shaped
pair of vertical stabs or 'Winglets.'  Same goes for the wing
camber to fuselage     "Blend" of the airframe designs.

5.  The outward cants of the F-22 Raptor, the F-117, the
McDonnell Douglas YF-23, and the TACIT BLUE stealth concept
prototypes perform similar aerodynamic functions for stability
in high performance flight.

6.  Rich observed that the impression Kelly Johnson's contacts
had was a negative impression and Kelly implied in rare
conversations on the subject that "Factions" from "Out there"
were a threat, more than they were a blessing.  The cost of
having "Them" around was "Unimaginable" and "Unbelievable."

7.  It was Ben Rich's opinion, that the public should not be
told.  He believed they could not handle the truth, ever.  Only
in the last months of his decline did he begin to feel that the
'International corporate board of directors' dealing with the
"Subject," could represent a bigger problem to citizens'
personal freedoms under the  United States Constitution than the
presence of off world visitors themselves.

Andrews passed this information on to me in stages, from 1994
until my last phone conversation with him around the Christmas
holidays of 1998.  Thanks to William M. McDonald at
Argonaut-Greywolf@home.com.  Editors Note: I thought it was disc
shaped, but we have many reports there are both ours and their
UFOs in our skies.

LONG ISLAND, NEW YORK DISC

MASTIC -- A taxi owner reports seeing a large hovering disc
shaped craft on July 14, 1999.  His passengers also saw the disc
as they drove to nearby Shirley at 11:20 PM.  He picked up a
second set of passengers and drove the ten minutes back to
Mastic where he saw the disc shaped like two saucers laid rim to
rim.  It was 500 feet in altitude made of brightly polished
aluminum.  It was flat on the bottom with a slight rise at the
top.  There were bright lights on the top and bottom.  Thanks to
Frank at Pat Marcattilio's MUFON UFO Meeting at the Hamilton, NJ
Library the first Wednesday of each month.  And thanks to Pat
for donating an UFO exhibit panel to the Air Victory Museum in
Medford concerning Captain Ruppelt of Blue Book.


PENNSYLVANIA ORB SIGHTING

BETHLEHEM -- Michael James Martinez reports sighting a UFO on
August 1, 1999, around 7:45 PM.  Martinez states, "I was
swimming in my aunts pool, when I got out I saw this red flash
of light about two hundred feet away.  I did not hear any sound.
Then just like a bat out of hell, a red orbed shaped object
appeared about three hundred feet off the ground, it hovered and
bobbed around and disappeared.  I saw a jet go past and a bright
flash flew past the jet.  I saw something shoot off like a
bullet, so I suppose I saw two UFOs." Thanks to Dave Ledger
UFOSCOT@cableinet.co.uk)

MARYLAND

BALTIMORE -- My husband John and I had an unusual sighting on
August 2, 1999. It was 5:00 PM and we were driving on US 40.  I
spotted a round silver shaped object hovering to the south near
the Lockheed Martin Airport.  I pointed it out to my husband,
who was excited since this was his first sighting.  The object
hovered for a bit then slowly went through a cloud, then above
the cloud and eventually disappeared after five minutes.  The
azimuth was 190 and angular elevation 45 degrees.  The object
was about the size of an 'O' at arm's length.  The sun
illuminated object from the side. We could see no distinguishing
features, nor external lights as the sun illuminated the object
from the side.  We didn't hear any sound.  The weather was clear
with occasional puffy clouds at 25,000 feet, NW wind at 9 mph,
guests to 20 mph. A phone call to the airport was negative,
although they were extremely interested.  Thanks to Jen and John
at LJenSilver


FLORIDA

NORTH BROWARD COUNTY � On July 31, 1999, a photograph was taken
of a UFO at 6:00 AM.  The slow-moving craft was visible for
about a minute as it moved south at about 15,000 feet and then
disappeared.  It appeared as large as a dime held at arm's
length.  It seems to be surrounded by an energy field. Thanks to
Dennis and Mary Zimmer at Miami MUFON mmz@gzinc.com


ALABAMA

MADISON � Aaron Crossley writes, "Let me start of by saying that
I am quite the UFO enthusiast and have been fascinated with
anything UFO related since I was a little kid.  I got a call at
about 12:05 AM on June 6, 1999, from my friend Jessica, who was
at her boyfriend David's house with several friends watching
UFOs.  I was so ecstatic, I woke my parents.  We spotted a
strobing light that was very different from any I've seen.  The
strobe was very bright and not moving.  It started to strobe at
a faster and faster pace until it would flash once very
brightly.  This was enough to light up a good bit of the sky!
It would disappear and then to my amazement reappear in another
part of the sky with another big flash.  After the big flash it
slowed its bright white blinking to the rate it was at before.
At one point the first one flashed bright once, then another
reddish light showed up, and flew near the first at a high rate
of speed, pulling off a sharp turn towards it.  The second red
one flashed white sometimes.  It was the most incredible thing I
have ever seen.  After a half hour of putting on some kind of
show they started moving south disappearing, reappearing in zig
zag patterns.  It was amazing, and yet creepy.  Madison Police
and civilian spectators also saw them.  I called the control
tower at Huntsville Airport.  They told me that air traffic
control doesn't track anything that they aren't expecting.
Thanks to Dave Ledger UFOSCOT@cableinet.co.uk. Editor's Note: A
new type of strobe light is being fitted to some commercial
aircraft.


ARKANSAS

My name is Joey Derbes and I saw something July 29, 1999, and I
don't know what it was. I was wondering if there were any
reports of meteor showers or a satellite in or around Arkansas
at 9:10 to 9:15 PM.  Any information would be helpful.

Thanks Joey Derbes at jderbes@tcac.net.  Editors Note: None were
reported.


NEVADA

My name is Evelyn McNutt and I was reading your article on the
recent Belgian sighting of a strange UFO.  I knew instantly that
it was the same type of craft that my mother had seen about 13
years ago as she traveled across Nevada on her way to Las Vegas.
She was in the desert, miles from anyone and it was in the early
morning hours and she saw it hovering not far from her car.  She
stopped and observed the craft and could see crinkled-looking
aluminum in the back of the craft.  It had lighting circling the
UFO as it hovered above the ground.  She remembered her camera
in the seat beside her and was going to take a picture when the
craft began to land.  An object that looked like a horse's tail
came out of the back of the UFO and made a swooshing circular
motion!  She was scared!  When the craft began to land she sped
off in her car in fright.  I have seen numerous sightings
myself!  Thanks to Evelyn McNutt  starlite@methow.com and John
Hayes ufoinfo@ukgateway.net


OREGON

EUGENE � "My name is Clark Kent (really!)  On August 2, 1999, I
saw a boomerang shaped craft without a fuselage fly west very
rapidly past at about 11:30 Pacific time."  The craft seemed
very close, and flew very low and silently about 20 to 25
degrees above the horizon.  The craft was very brightly lit
seemingly from within.  The light intensity was equally bright
over the entire surface, that appeared like "frosted" glass, or
a very opaque plastic.  It remained lit for about 3 seconds,
then faded rapidly faster than an iridium satellite flare, but
slower than turning off a house light.  It was moving in the
direction of its 'point.'  All the edges appeared rounded, i.e.,
arcs as opposed to right angles.  My best guess is it's a
stealth plane, but it seemed to be flying awful low for one.
And why over Eugene?  Thanks to Clark Kent at ckent23@ibm.net.
Editor's Note: The Stealth B-2 bomber best fits your description
of the craft except they are dark in color and have sharply cut
off wing tips.  There could have been some type of reflection of
the surface of the craft.


CALIFORNIA

VACAVILLE -- A sales associate, age 17, reports he was being
driven home by his mother after work on July 27, 1999, when they
spotted a UFO.  It was a clear dark night and the moon was high
in the sky at 10:08 PM.  The mother said, "Look below the moon
at the hovering light!"  Jeremy said, "What I saw surprised me.
Way below the moon was a strange hovering object."  It had a
strange yellowish gray glow and wasn't very bright, but clearly
visible.  The height the UFO was about 150 feet.  The craft was
hanging above the power lines only three miles from Travis AFB.
as the UFO hovered and then moved erratically changing color.
It rotated and maneuvered. "My Mom swerved and almost had an
accident as the object flew off so high and fast!"  Thanks to
Jeremy Matney and Ben Field at http://www.abcfield.foirce9.co.uk

FEATHER RIVER CANYON, BELDON � Malcolm Uhl writes, "I am a MUFON
investigator trainee and ham radio operator.  On June 16, 1999,
two couples and myself were talking at the campground fire ring
at 2:30 PM.  To our left is Caribou Road east of Belden.  We had
a daylight spotting of a large metallic craft at 35 degrees
above the horizon.  It was 50 feet in length, stationary with a
bright silver in color.  We could not hear any noise.  In the
July issue of the MUFON Journal on page nine is a perfect sketch
of this cylindrical shaped craft.  It was also observed by two
prospectors working on their gold claim on Rush Creek the next
day at about the same time.  Thanks to Malcolm Uhl  at
gold_bug10@hotmail.com (mickey uhl)


MISSOURI AND D.C. CONNECTION WITH UFOs

SAINT LOUIS POST DISPATCH �July 25, 1999, by Jon Sawyer and,
Stephanie Hanes wrote the following article: "We're just normal
people and we want the truth," says Bruce Widaman (MUFON's State
Director, explaining why he hopes to make Missouri the first
state with a ballot initiative demanding that Washington
disclose what it knows about UFOs and extraterrestrial
encounters. Missouri's show-me role in the UFO disclosure
campaign was confirmed by Stephen Bassett of suburban
Washington, who last week announced formation of the country's
first political action committee that directly targets the
government's alleged suppression of data about UFOs.  Bassett
said the new group (X-PPAC), for Extraterrestrial Phenomena
Political Action Committee; is aimed at ending what it views as
"the government embargo of facts confirming the presence of
extraterrestrial life forms in our world." "The whole thrust of
my work is to make this issue mainstream, to see it treated with
the seriousness it deserves," said Bassett, a former business
consultant who decided three years ago to devote himself full
time to the UFO issue.  The challenge is overcoming what
activists call the "laughter curtain" � the linkage of UFO
concerns with two-headed monsters and other tabloid fare.  In
Missouri, Widaman, in his work life a hardware salesman, is
putting the finishing touches on language for the ballot
initiative.  He said, he has about 200 conservative Ufologists
prepared to start gathering signatures, in hopes of getting the
issue on the ballot next year. "If there's nothing to the UFO
question then why all the secrecy?" "People who don't think that
this is real are just showing their terrestrial chauvinism." See
www.X-PPAC.org)


CANADA

PORT MOODY - On July 30, 1999, time Greg was standing on his
balcony at 10:40 PM and noticed what he thought was an aircraft.
He says, "However, I ruled it out, my next assumption was a
satellite.  I noticed the light got brighter.  During this time
the object traveled horizontal to the ground and started to
climb higher and began to dim.  I've seen many a satellite, but
not like that.  The craft seemed to be heading out into space!
Thanks to Greg fontaing@netcom.ca  & Skywatch
skywatch@itlnet.net.

ONTARIO CROP CIRCLES -- Lynda Powless editor of The Turtle
Island News, and Hopi Indian resident of the Six Nations
reservation where two new formations were found reports.  She
describes elaborate lay patterns in both formations. In
virtually all the pathways joining the circles, the crop is
"braided"; in the smaller formation, the wheat is flattened in
one direction, then a second layer of wheat is flattened over
top of this, at a diagonal flow to the pathways themselves.  In
one of the circles in the longer formation the wheat is laid in
a "five-pointed star" pattern.  At one point along one of the
pathways in the smaller formation, the tops of the stalks were
"singed or burned".  About two weeks ago some of the residents
of the reservation reported seeing two bright lights hovering
just above these two fields. Then, on Saturday July24th, another
resident photographed, three large beams of light like large
spotlights, extending up into the air from the same or nearby
field similar to recent reports in England. The three beams of
light then converged into one large beam.  Digital cameras fail
inside or near the formations, but good photos were successfully
taken with analog cameras.  Some video footage taken showed only
"snow" when played back.  Also reports of people experiencing
headaches and / or nausea.  One person who took a Geiger counter
into the circles last Tuesday reportedly obtained a reading of
about 600, with a "normal" reading of about 150 outside.  Lynda
noticed on the night of July 28 lunar eclipse in Canada that an
arm of the formation pointed directly at where the moon was in
the sky.  There have also been good reports on the circles in
the July 29/30 editions of The Hamilton Spectator newspaper in
Ontario. Thanks to Paul Anderson Circles Phenomenon Research
Canada psa@direct.ca (- TMP / CPR
http://www.iaml.net/~timestar/hagerscrop.htm


ENGLAND

  LIVERPOOL -- On July 10, 1999, at 10:50 PM I just thought I'd
hang the washing out, when I suddenly felt something was
watching me, so I turned and in the distance there was an object
about 500 feet up.  It was not an airplane, I know that because
it was soundless it was kind of triangular shape and had white
lights beaming from the bottom.  I felt quite scared I ran in to
tell my dad but it was gone as if it had never been there.  It
was far too fast for a plane, since there was nothing to be seen
in the distance. Thanks to Dave Ledger  UFO Scotland,
UFOSCOT@cableinet.co.uk


ASTEROIDS PREDICTED BY NOSTRADAMOUS

Interpretation of Nostradamous' prediction suggest that August
11, 1999, solar eclipse is believed to be the date described
that some interpret as an asteroid or Comet coming into Earth's
orbit.  It is unclear if it is an actual collision or just the
mere presence in our solar system, that would disrupt climatic
events on earth.  Others believe it will be the vision or sign
of other events to unfold.  Robert Egan  an expert on
Nostradamous states: "Again this will be the astronomical event
that identifies the reality of the prophecy -- sort of a
triggering mechanisms a timing devise in the stars to tell us
what 'Time' it is.  The players, the countries, leaders, the
nuclear missiles are now all in place, according to the stars of
our universe, all according to the science of astronomy. 'Time
will certainly tell. Thanks to Mitch Battros, For details see:

http://www.earthchangesTV.com/predict/nostrabobus.htm  1,000
Asteroids May Threaten Earth. Editors Note: Up to 1,000
asteroids are large enough and close enough to Earth to cause
planet-wide damage, but the chances of a collision are extremely
remote.  There are 2,000 to 4,000 asteroids of about one-third
of a mile in diameter that cross the orbital path of the Earth.
These would be big enough to cause extensive regional damage,
but probably would not have planet-wide effects. This eclipse is
prominent in various predictions of future world catastrophes.


NEW GIANT PLANET FOUND CALLED: IOTA HOR B

LA SILLA OBSERVATORY - The European Southern Observatory reports
discovering a new extra-solar giant planet in Earth-like orbit.
This 5.4-mag solar-type star is a companion to iota Horologii
(iota Hor) and is located at a distance of 56 light-years.  It
is just visible to the unaided eye in the southern constellation
Horologium (The Pendulum Clock).  The discovery is the result of
a survey of forty solar-type stars begun in 1992.  It is based
on highly accurate measurements of stellar radial velocities.
The presence of a planet in orbit around a star is inferred from
small regular changes of velocity, as the host star and its
planet revolve around a common center of gravity.  Further
planets in this solar system are likely due to unusual
variability of the star. Thanks to Mark A. LeCuyer
randydan@wavetech.net


U.S. GOVERNMENT UFO PROOF RELEASED: Audio tapes of a genuine UFO
Alert at Edwards Air Force base and studied by the Foreign
Technology Division at Wright Patterson Air Force Base, are now
available for distribution to the public.  Lunar Astronaut Dr.
Edgar Mitchell was at Edwards the night the UFO chase occurred.
The 6th person to walk on the moon said, "The night it happened
I investigated it myself and this was a real event."  Sam
Sherman's audio documentary tape called THE EDWARDS AIR FORCE
BASE ENCOUNTER on the night of October 7, 1965, uses the actual
voice recordings provided by the Air Force.  During this event
12 high tech luminous UFOs invade secure air space and came down
low over the runways at Edwards AFB.  Tower operator Sgt. Chuck
Sorrels spotted them and notified the Air Defense Command.  Sgt.
Sorrels is heard on the original tapes and in a new segment
where he verifies the event as it is heard on the archival
recordings.  The UFOs are described and a decision is made to
launch F-106 fighter interceptors.  Your there for an important
part of UFO history.  Hear it for yourself, its the best UFO
tape ever made.  Tape cost is $14.95 each plus $2.00 for
shipping -- total $16.95 -- you can send either a personal check
or money order to: Independent International Films, Box 565,
Dept. GF, Old Bridge, New Jersey 08857.


DERREL SIMS former CIA operative and trainer, master
hypnotherapist and hypnotic anesthesiologist, NLP Master, 4th
Degree Black Belt, firewalk trainer, handwriting analysts, and
abductee, will present for the first time in NYC, a week long
presentation on the abduction phenomena.  He will present
physical proof of the alien presence.  Monday, August 16th @
7:30pm Alien and Military Intelligence Cover-up As a former CIA
operative and trainer, Derrel Sims has a unique
perspectivintensity as you view the surgical removal of an
actual implant.  Experience the findings of Derrel�fs
medical/scientific team work.  Wednesday, August 18th, 7:30pm
Mass Abduction Presentation Derrel a hypnotic anesthesiologist
and full time UFO investigator, in a proactive move, created a
Manchurian candidate.  By giving the volunteer post hypnotic
commands to create a reaction from the alien presence, Sims hit
the Jackpot.  Amazing physical evidence will be shown of 8
persons in a mass abduction.  Thursday, August 19th, 7:30 pm
Handwriting and Symbol Analysis In England 180 people attended
this amazing workshop where all got to watch their
subconconscious draw realities on paper.  Derrel then shows you
how to evaluate your own and others handwriting.  Friday, August
20th, 7:30 pm The truth of what hypnosis can and cannot do and
how to tell if you are an alien abductee. This is a fascinating
ride into how one can possibly gain evidence of human/alien
contact.  Sims will use Infra red, Ultra violet and the visible
spectrum of light to prove your case. This investigator of 35
years, has found physical proof of abductions and will discuss
how you can do so as well!  All events are located at the Source
of Life, 22 W. 34th Street, 5th floor. & cost is $25 @ the door
($20 with phone reservations; call 718-565-0852)  Derrel is also
available for Private sessions.

MUFON JOURNAL For more detailed investigative reports subscribe
by writing to 103 Oldtowne Road, Sequin, TX 78155-4099 or E-mail
Mufon@aol.com.  Filer's Files Copyright 1999 by George A. Filer,
all rights reserved.  Readers may post items from the Files on
their Websites provided that they credit the newsletter and its
editor by name and list the date of issue that the item
appeared.  Send your letters to me at Majorstar@aol.com.  If you





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   Aug > Aug 7

                       Summary of French COMETA Report

From: Gildas Bourdais <GBourdais@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 12:40:50 EDT
Fwd Date: Sat, 07 Aug 1999 18:10:11 -0400
Subject: Summary of French COMETA Report


Hello to all List members

Here is my summary of the French COMETA report, free for
copy and publishing, provided its contents are respected.

Best regards,
Gildas Bourdais


The French Report on UFOs and Defence: a short presentation
by Gildas Bourdais

It must be stressed here that this is an independant report,
written by a private association called COMETA. It is summarized
here with the approval of the authors.

To translate and publish the report itself, in part or in its
integrality, permission should be asked by writing to the
administrator of the association COMETA, Mr Michel Algrin, 25,
boulevard Saint-Germain, 75005 Paris, France.



On Friday 16 of July 1999 was published in France an outstanding
document, called "UFOs and Defence. What must we be prepared for
?" ("Les OVNI et la Dfense. A quoi doit-on se prparer?") This
ninety pages report is the result of an in depth study of UFOs,
covering many aspects of the subject, especially questions of
defence.

The study was carried out during several years by an independant
group of former "auditors" at the very serious Institute of
Higher Studies for National Defence, or IHEDN ("Institut des
hautes tudes de dfense nationale"), and of qualified experts
from various fields. Before its public release, it has been sent
to French President of the Republic Jacques Chirac, and to Prime
minister Lionel Jospin.


This Report is prefaced by General Bernard Norlain, of the Air
Force, former Director of IHEDN, and it begins with a preamble
by Andr Lebeau, former President of the National Center for
Space Studies ("Centre national d'tudes spatiales", CNES),the
French equivalent of NASA.

The group itself, collective author of the report, is an
association of experts, many of whom are or have been auditors
of IHEDN, and it is presided over by General Denis Letty, of the
Air Force, former auditor(FA) of IHEDN. Its name "COMETA" stands
for "Committee for in depth studies".

A non exhaustive list of members is given at the beginning, and
it is impressive enough. It includes:

General Bruno Lemoine, of the Air Force (FA of IHEDN), Admiral
Marc Merlo (FA of IHEDN). Michel Algrin, Doctor in Political
Sciences, attorney at law (FA of IHEDN), General Pierre Bescond,
engineer for armaments (FA of IHEDN), Denis Blancher, Chief
National Police superintendant at the Ministry ot the Interior,
Christian Marchal, chief engineer of the national "corps des
Mines", Research Director at the "National Office of
Aeronautical Research" (ONERA), General Alain Orszag, Phd in
physics, engineer for armaments.

The committee also expresses its gratitude to outside
contributors, among whom:

Jean-Jacques Vlasco, head of SEPRA at CNES, Franois Louange,
President of Fleximage, specialist of photo analysis, General
Joseph Domange, of the Air Force, general delegate of the
Association of auditors at IHEDN.


General Norlain tells in a short preface how this committee was
created. General Letty came to see him in March 1995, when he
was Director of IHEDN, to discuss his project of committee on
UFOs. Norlain assured him of his interest and addressed him to
the Association of Auditors (AA) of IHEDN, which in turn gave
him its support.

It is interesting to recall here that, twenty years ago, it was
a report of that same Association which led to the creation of
GEPAN, the first unit for UFO study, at CNES.

As a result, several members of the committee come from the
Association of Auditors of IHEDN,joined by other experts. Most
of them hold, or have held, important functions in defence,
industry, teaching, research,or various central administrations.
General Norlain expresses hope that this report will help
develop new efforts nationally, and an indispensable
international cooperation.

General Letty, as president of COMETA, points to the main theme
of the report, which is that the accumulation of well documented
observations compells us now to consider all hypotheses as to
the origin of UFOs, especially extraterrestrial hypotheses.

The committee then presents the contents of the study: In a
first part, presentation of some remarkable cases, both French
and foreign; In a second part, they describe the present
organization of research in France and abroad, and studies made
by scientists worldwide which may bring partial explanations, in
accordance with known laws of physics. The main global
explanations are then reviewed, from secret crafts to
extraterrestrial manifestations; In a third part, will be
examined measures to be taken regarding defence, from
information of pilots, both civilian and military, to strategic,
political and religious consequences, should the
extraterrestrial hypothesis be confirmed.


Part I: "Facts and Testimonies"

Many of the cases selected are well known by most researchers,
and need only to be mentioned here. They are:

-Testimonies of French pilots. M. Giraud, pilot of MirageIV
(1977); Colonel Bosc, fighter pilot (1976); Air France flight
AF 3532 (jan 1994).

-Aeronautical cases world wide. Lakenheath (1956); RB-47 (1957)
; Teheran (1976); Russia (1990); San Carlos de Bariloche
(Argentina, 1995).

-Observations from the ground. Tananarive (1954); observation
of a saucer near the ground by a French pilot, J.-P. Fartek
(1979); observation at close range over a Russian missile site,
by several witnesses (1989).

-Close encounters in France. Valensole (Maurice Masse, 1965);
Cussac, Cantal (1967); Trans-en-Provence (1981); Nancy
(so called case of the "Amaranth" 1982).

-Counter-exemples of elucidated phenomena (two cases).

Although the selection is limited, it seems to be sufficient to
convince an uninformed but open minded reader of the reality of
UFOs.


Part II: "The Present State of Knowledge"

The second part, entitled "the present state of knowledge" ("Le
point des connaissances"), begins with a survey of the
organization of the official UFO research in France, from the
first intructions given to the "gendarmerie" in 1974 for the
redaction of reports, to the creation of GEPAN in 1977, its
organization and its results: collection of more than 3,000
reports from the gendarmerie, cases studies, statistical
analyses. It then surveys agreements passed by GEPAN and, later,
SEPRA, with the air force and the army, the civilian aviation
and other organs, such as civilian and military laboratories for
the analysis of samples, and photographies.

Regarding the methods and results, we are reminded of some
famous cases (Trans-en-Provence, l'Amarante), and emphasis is
made on the the catalogues of cases, notably of pilots
(Weinstein catalogue), and "radar/visual", world wide. A
historical note appears here with a quotation of the famous
letter of General Twining, of september 1947, asserting already
to the reality of UFOs.

The following chapter, called "hypotheses and attempts at
modeling" ("OVNI: hypothses,essais de modlisation") discusses
some models and hypotheses which are under study in several
countries.

Partial simulations have already been made for UFO propulsion,
based on observations of aspects such as: speed, movements and
accelerations, engine failure of nearby vehicles, paralysis of
witnesses.

One model is MHD propulsion, already tested successfully in
water, and wich might be achieved in the atmosphere with
superconducting circuits, in a few decades. Other studies are
briefly mentioned, regarding both atmospheric and space
propulsion, such as particle beams, antigravity, reliance on
planetary and stellar impulsion.

The failure of land vehicle engines may be explained by
microwave radiations. In fact, high power hyperfrequency
generators are under study in France and other countries. One
application is micro wave weapons. Particle beams, for instance
proton beams, which ionize the air and become therefore visible,
might explain the observation of truncated luminous beams. Micro
waves might explain body paralysis.

In the same chapter are next studied "global hypotheses". Hoaxes
are rare and easily detected. Some non-scientific are put aside,
such as conspiration and manipulation by very secret, powerful
groups, parapsychic phenomena, collective hallucinations. The
hypothesis of secret weapons is also regarded as very
improbable, the same as "intoxication" at the time of the cold
war, or just natural phenomena.

We are then left with various extraterestrial hypotheses. One
version has been developed in France by astronomers Jean-Claude
Ribes and Guy Monnet, based on the concept of "space islands" of
American physicist O'Neill, and it is compatible with present
day physics.

The organization of UFO research in the United States,
Great Britain and Russia, is surveyed rapidly.

In the United States, the media and the polls show a marked
interest and concern of the public, but the official position,
especially of the Air Force, is still one of denial, more
precisely that there is no threat to national security.
Actually, declassified documents, released under FOIA, show
another story, one of surveillance of nuclear installations by
UFOs, and the continued study of UFOs by the military and
intelligence agencies.

The report stresses the importance, in the United States, of
private, independant associations. It mentions the "Briefing
Document. Best available evidence" sent in 1995 to a thousand
personalities worldwide, and the Sturrock workshop in 1997, both
sponsored by Laurance Rockefeller. The "Briefing Document" has
obviously been welcomed by the authors of the COMETA report. The
committee also notes the public emergence of alleged insiders
such as Colonel Philip Corso, and considers that his testimony
may be partly significant as to the real situation in that
country, in spite of many critics.

The report describes briefly the situation in Great Britain,
with a special mention for Nick Pope, and poses the question of
the possible existence of secret studies pursued jointly with
American services. It mentions as well research in Russia, and
the release of some information, notably by the KGB in 1991.


Part III: UFOs and Defence

The third part, "UFOs and Defence" ("Les OVNI et la dfense"),
states that, if it is true that no hostile action has been
proved yet, at least some actions of "intimidation" have been
recorded in France (case of of the Mirage IV for instance).
Since the extraterrestrial origin of UFOs cannot be ruled out,
it is therefore necessary to study the consequences of that
hypothesis at the strategic level, but also political, religious
and media/public information levels.

The first chapter ofPart III is devoted to prospective
strategies ("Prospectives stratgiques") and it begins with
fundamental questions: "What if extraterrestrials? What
intentions and what strategy can we deduce from their behavior
?"

Such questions open a more controversial part of the report.
Possible motivations of extraterrestrial visitors are explored
here, such as protection of planet Earth against the dangers of
nuclear war, suggested for instance by repeated flying over
nuclear missile sites.

The committee then ponders the possible repercussion on the
behavior, official or not, of different states, and focuses on
the possibility of secret, privileged contacts which might be
"attributed to the United States". The attitude of the U.S. is
seen as "most strange" since the 1947 wave and the Roswell
event. Since that time, a policy of increasing secrecy seems to
have been applied, which might be explained by the protection at
all cost of military technological superiority to be acquired
from the study of UFOs.

Next, the report tackles the question: "What measures must we
take now?" At the least, whatever the nature of UFOs, they
impose "critical vigilance", in particular regarding the risk
of "destabilizing manipulations". A kind of "cosmic vigilance"
should be applied by the elites, nationally and internationally,
in order to prevent any shocking surprise, erroneous
interpretation and hostile manipulation.

Nationally, COMETA urges the strenghening of SEPRA, and
recommends the creation of a cell at the highest level of
government, entrusted with the development of hypotheses,
strategy, and preparation of cooperation agreements with
European and other foreign countries. A further step would be
that European states and the European Union undertake diplomatic
action toward the Unites States within the framework of
political and strategic alliances.

A key question of the report is "What situations must we be
prepared for?". It mentions such situations as: extraterrestrial
move for official contact; discovery of a UFO/alien base on the
territory or in Europe; invasion (deemed improbable) and
localised or massive attack; manipulation or deliberate
disinformation aiming at destabilizing other states.

COMETA devotes special attention to "aeronautical implications",
with detailed recommendations aimed at various personnels, such
as air staffs, controllers, weathermen and engineers. It also
makes recommendations at the scientific and technical levels,
aimed at developping research, with potential benefits for
defence and industry.

The report further explores the political and religious
implications of UFOs, using as a model the perspective of our
own exploration of space: how would we do it, how would we
handle contacts with less advanced civilizations?

Such an approach is not new to the well informed readers of the
abundant ufological literature, but it has a special value here,
being treated seriously at such a level. The media/publicity
implications are not forgotten, with the problems of
disinformation, fear of ridicule, and manipulation by certain
groups.

In its conclusion, COMETA claims that the physical reality of
UFOs, under control of intelligent beings, is "quasi certain".
Only one hypothesis takes into account the available data: the
hypothesis of extraterrestrial visitors. This hypothesis is of
course unproved, but has far-reaching consequences. The goals of
these alleged visitors remain unknown but must be the subject of
speculations and prospective scenarios.

In its final recommendations, it stresses again the need to:

1) inform all decision-makers and persons in position of
responsibility;

2) reinforce means of investigation and study at SEPRA;

3) have UFO detection taken into account by agencies engaged
in of space surveillance;

4) create a strategic cell at the highest state level;

5) undertake diplomatic action toward the Unites States
for cooperation on this "capital question";

6) study measures which might be necessary in case of
emergencies.


Finally, this document is accompanied by seven
interesting annexes which are worth reading even
by seasoned ufologists:

-1 Radar detection in France

-2 Observations by astronomers

-3 Life in the Universe

-4 Colonization of space

-5 The Roswell case - The disinformation (an interesting text
which will be criticized by some readers, and welcomed by
others, including myself)

-6 Antiquity of the UFO phenomenon. Elements for a chronology.

-7 Reflexionn on various psychological, sociological and
political aspects ot the UFO phenomenon.

The importance of this report should not be missed by all
informed ufologists around the world, considering not only its
contents but the personality of its authors, and in spite of
critics which may be addressed to it.

In fact, some sharp critics have been made soon after the
release of the report, on the Internet, and in the French press
with an article by sociologist Pierre Lagrange curiously
denouncing an operation of disinformation by way of ridiculing
the subject ("Libration of July 21, 1999). Let's hope that the
present summary will help clarify the debate.





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   Aug > Aug 7

               Conscious Life, Dr. Steven Greer & The Prophets

From: prophets@maui.net
Date: Fri, 06 Aug 1999 07:31:29 -1000
Fwd Date: Sat, 07 Aug 1999 21:06:43 -0400
Subject: Conscious Life, Dr. Steven Greer & The Prophets


This article appeared in the August issue of Conscious Life, a
Bay Area newspaper devoted to personal growth, health, wellness
and spirituality. For information on Conscious Life, please call
(510) 654-6228.

---

"ET Contact" a Real Possibility

An Interview with Dr. Steven Greer

- By Randy Peyser

Dr. Steven Greer, an emergency room physician and the
International Director for The Center for the Study of
Extraterrestrial Intelligence (CSETI) will be a featured speaker
at The Prophet's Conference in Pt. Townsend, WA, Aug. 27-29.
Presenters include Dr. Edgar Mitchell, Dr. John Mack, Dr. Robert
Anton Wilson, Gregg Braden, James Twyman, John A. Keel, and
others.

Randy Peyser: You state that you have successfully established preliminary
contact and communication with extraterrestrial spacecraft at close range.
Can you talk about that?

Dr. Steven Greer: Yes. This is a major theme of my new book,
Extraterrestrial Contact: The Evidence and Implications. CSETI
has teams which go out all over the world establishing contact
with these life forms at close range.

RP: How do you establish contact?

SG: We use lasers, electromagnetic systems, high-powered light,
and radio signals that we send which have beeping tones on them
that have been recorded off of UFOs. We transmit these signals
out into space as sort of a beacon so they can pick up exactly
where we are. Then we remotely vector these crafts into the
site, using thought.

RP: You use thought?

SG: I believe that's what these life forms are using for
communicating through interstellar space because the speed of
light is too slow. If your star system is only a thousand light
years away, you're going to have some means of communication
that bypasses linear space and time. The Moody Blues weren't too
far off the mark when they said, "Thinking is the best way to
travel." I would modify that to say that thought is operating
outside the constraints of linear space and time. Therefore,
communication can be instant even if it's across an entire
galaxy of 150,000 light years, such as the Milky Way.

RP: Do you train people to do this?

SG: Yes. We take people through this program where they can not
only remotely view the spacecraft, but they can remotely vector
it, showing them where we are and guiding them in. On many
occasions we've had these craft appear overhead, right above the
ground. Sometimes they're phase-shifted so they almost look like
a hologram, like a translucent sort of craft.

We train people all over the world, not for the purpose of
giving people a curiosity seeker's show of the universe, but to
give people the skills to be citizen ambassadors. In my
experience, ETs are interested in not only understanding us, but
in helping us. They are ready to interface with us in a peaceful
way if we approach them in a peaceful way.

RP: Can you address the fear factor associated with UFOs? We've
all heard reports about abductions, implants, and experiments
conducted upon people by the Grays.

SG: It's nonsense. We have a very serious problem where advanced
black budget covert projects that operate outside of any
constitutional oversight have taken extraterrestrial materials
and biological matter and created scenarios using those to make
it look like there are extraterrestrial events going on which
are, in fact, 100 percent human in origin. For example, the
Grays that I know that exist are artificial biological life
forms that are made out at a facility in New Mexico named Dulce
which is connected underground to Los Alamos.

We have already cloned not only humans, but things that look
extraterrestrial but aren't. They're based on the genetic
material that we have retrieved. I'm telling you on the record
for the first time that we do have this ability and I have
people who can confirm this.

Humans have also been targeted for abduction by paramilitary
units using very sophisticated warfare systems, electronics that
can interface with consciousness and have set up these things
called, "abductions."

I'm not saying that every person who's had an ET encounter has
been the victim of a military encounter, but the ones you hear
about for the most part are victims of military operations. This
sounds more bizarre than saying there are ETs, but it also
happens to be the truth. I have spoken to people who have been
on abduction squads and they don't know why they're doing this.
They're commanded to do it and they do it.

For many years we have had what are called, "alien reproduction
vehicles," that look like UFOs but are manufactured by a
consortium of companies such as Lockheed Martin, Northrup,
E-Systems, and FAIC and others. These things in conjunction with
electronics that allow an interface with conscious thought and
the conscious state of a human have been used to simulate
extraterrestrial abductions.

What's disturbing about this is that people who have had real ET
encounters have subsequently been targeted for this kind of faux
experience to confuse the database and put a spin of fear on the
subject. There has been a deliberate attempt to demonize and
frighten people about this issue.

RP: But why?

SG: Abductions, cattle mutilations, and other frightening
scenarios have been militarily orchestrated for the purpose of
putting information out which would discredit the field in the
eyes of mainstream scientists, policy makers, and the media.

The reason behind this is that people profit from war. Military
spending in the world just hit a trillion dollars this year. To
grow it to a three trillion dollar business in the next
millennia, you've got to have an enemy off planet, because
everyone knows that with every small country in the world
getting nuclear weapons, we can't afford any more international
conflicts that are of any significance.

There is an attempt in my opinion to export this "threat." I'm
almost quoting now from Ronald Reagan who on multiple occasions
said, "Wouldn't our task of creating world unity and peace be
easier if we had a common alien threat to unite against and
fight?"

Instead of the "evil empire" being the Soviet Union, there has
been an attempt to gradually indoctrinate and condition people
to be afraid of and to hate everything extraterrestrial so that
there could be a justification for the military industrial
complex to have a very strong, space-based presence in the next
century.

We've been working with the government trying to encourage them
to totally close down all these secret projects and get this
information out so that we can safely begin to come together as
a people and discuss how to peacefully establish long-term
relations with these life forms. People have to begin to empower
themselves to be citizen diplomats.



For information on the Prophet's Conference:
www.greatmystery.org Editor, interviewer and feature articles
writer Randy Peyser can be reached at
http://members.aol.com/rpeyser

________________________________________

You may receive The Prophets Conference Brochure by calling
toll-free 1-888-777-5981 and leaving your name and address, or
by emailing axiom@greatmystery.org.

Thank you for forwarding this information to your friends and
member lists. Questions, unsubscribe, subscribe, inquiries,
comments, issues? Send email to Cody@greatmystery.org


explore... http://www.greatmystery.org






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   Aug > Aug 7

                   Re: P-47: The Stupidity within Ufology

From: Max Burns <MBurns6711@cs.com>
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1999 15:17:54 EDT
Fwd Date: Sat, 07 Aug 1999 21:18:46 -0400
Subject: Re: P-47: The Stupidity within Ufology


 >From: Richard D. Nolane <raynaud@total.net>
 >To: <updates@globalserve.net>
 >Subject: Re: P-47 :The Stupidity within Ufology
 >Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 11:22:13 -0500

 >>Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 23:50:54 -0600
 >>From: Wendy Connors <ProjectSign@EMAIL.MSN.COM>
 >>Subject: The Stupidity Within Ufology
 >>To: PROJECT-1947@LISTSERV.AOL.COM

<snip>

 >You are right when you say that something is wrong with the
 >members of various UFO lists . These lists are invaded with
 >insanities discussed over and over (pelicans, etc) with boring
 >personals quarrels  (Max Burns, Peter Brookesmith, etc), with
 >inflated egos (sorry I have not the necessary space to write all
 >the names...) and so on.

  Dear Richard,

I have not one of those inflated ego's you were talking about, I
am simply investigating a case, the findings and conclusions I
have reached happen to disagree with a group of friendly hard
core sceptics in the UK..

The "Usual Suspects", as I like to call them with some
affection.. I agree that the petty squabling that has gone on
over this case is very childish, but the sceptics need all the
ammo they can muster, including whether or not I have paid my
gas bill, council tax, whatever. and really has nothing to do
with this case or any case for that matter.

I have not wished to be involved in personal grudge gripes, but
the UK sceptics play hard ball and I have at least had to defend
myself against these head hunters...boring as it may seem for
you, How do think I feel?

I will tell you, every time that I have to respond to there
personal attacks that takes up my time that could be better
spent conducting research, And when I ask them to answer
questions to this list that they dont like. They just ignore
them, and revert back to whether I have paid my council tax
bill...

You are right it is boring, but hey this is a discussion list..
I am making claims, that others disagree with, they call me a
liar, because I am short of the definning evidence to prove my
version of events, and that is their right..

But absense of evidence is not evidence of absense

I call them debunkers, liars perpetrators of dis-information
etc....but still I believe the evidence to prove my case is out
there, and the search goes on. They will not answer the
questions that I put to them, but will let you all know if I
burnt my toast this morning

And so the game goes on

Max Burns


Its nice to be important, but more important to be nice..






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   Aug > Aug 7

                            Alfred's Odd Ode #311

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Sat, 07 Aug 1999 08:46:46 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 07 Aug 1999 21:24:18 -0400
Subject: Alfred's Odd Ode #311


Apology to MW #311 (For August 7, 1999)

. . . You look up in a churning sky and see the moons of Mars
describe an arc that drags them through _your_ air to swirl
burning clouds up there!! *Horns* they'd grow, or *beards*
they'd have, with *hair* or *arms* or *hands* to grab and smash
your walls and raze your cities; nature frowns, enraged --
un-pretty! Moons of fury! Roundhouse swings! Winds a flurry --
shrieks and screams, and savages the Earth forsaken by these
Gods too long mistaken. Massive bolides in the sky will chance
their dangerous dance -- we die! Bad enough they swing and miss
us, if a punch should land to kiss us, we would cease to even be
-- our atoms scattered far and free!

Forget the moons, and think attraction. Remember "tides" -- our
moon in action? Mars would pull the seas so high they'd scrape
the clouds from starless skies! Tidal waves, some miles tall,
would wash the planet pole to pole!! The pull of all this
gravitation raises water's elevation -- smashing up (an awful
course!) our puny buildings down by force!!!

Cheek to jowl our bones would molder, death would rot in piles
-- smolder. Millions, billions and trillions (square meters),
piled like dead fall -- battered, disfeatured. Hummingbirds and
tiger's jaws are mixed with shattered human's paws and pounded
to a carbon slurry soon contrived as ~WATER~ hurries!

Forget the water, what of EARTH? It's moving like the water,
WORSE! And along with water's crushing force it hoards electrons
-- but of course. Lightning is impressive, grand, if cloud to
cloud or cloud to land. Its bolt is HUGE just Earth confined; it
shatters trees and strikes you blind! But it's _NOTHING_ when
compared what's passed between the planets, shared -- where
bolts become the spears of Zeus, and miles THICK these bolts cut
loose!! Its smaller cut would dwarf the canyon we had labeled
"grand," companion! Fire breathing, mad, and sacking, it's a
twisting churning *dragon*. . . existing down to present day to
underlie the words we pray.

Forget the lighting, mere *influence* turns the POLES to new
congruence! The Earth's thin crust is wrenched quite loose and
continents are bashed/abused to take new form, are rearranged,
and shredded in a blender -- braised! What was frozen, blisters
-- STEAMS (!) in hot hell fire, shrieks and screams. What was
tropic harbors glaciers, scraped down clean -- it's God's
erasure. Burning naphtha rains from skies that churn with
madness they comprise, and Earth afire (sooty black) -- absorbs
the heat . . . and cold comes back.

Those that see these huge events are scarred beyond their scared
consent. . .

Burnt into their hollow souls how well they know the words
they've told. . .

Imbued, perhaps, the very genes, themselves, may keep, alive,
this dream. . .

The suffering (somehow so intense), the blood is ink for line
and writ, and all the horror of those days is written into parts
we play. . .

Pity those who've watched the planets spin too close and touch
-- God damn it! These are sights one shouldn't see!! They stun
and shock, too harsh to BE!!!  These are "worlds in collision."
These comprise our strange religions. This is more than just
contusion. This is cosmic mass confusion. This is more than can
be borne, to dance impaled on nature's horn, but such it IS as
world's clash, the air afire -- the waters crash! Such it is to
see worlds race, and shred themselves in HARSH embrace! Such it
is in "Earth's upheaval" -- slaughtered piles of
critters/people, tossed up in these massive banks of ruined
flesh to rot and stink.

Lehmberg@snowhill.com
But never -- no never! Never to the crown of God's creation!

   ~/\/\/\/\/\//\///x
     [`~~//~~`/\///
      (<>'<>]//    __________ <heh!>
     \\\  <    \ X
        [~=~\] ///\
      \\|//\\//
       \\X//
         V

Be sure to visit my site and check the illustration for this ode
-- it's a doozy! <g>. Tune in next week for some discussion on
the *difference* between science, and the ubiquitously intrepid
scientist. Twitchers be warned.

Restore John Ford.

--
Ponder the Wit & Wisdom of Ching Chow!
View "Unstill Life" -- Animation . . . and more.
Consider Matter, Mind & Movement.
See the current HTML "Apology to MW" with illustration.
Take a ride in the Teleporter.

Explore "Alfred Lehmberg's Alien View" at his Fortunecity URL.

http://www.fortunecity.com/roswell/arecibo/46/
<Updated 7 August>

John Ford Restoration Fund -- Send your checks and
money orders to _me_, Alfred Lehmberg
(cut out the lawyers, they got their's) at:
304 Melbourne Drive, Enterprise AL, 36330. Strict records kept.
$350.00 pledged -- $200.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see from
afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, burned at the
fundamentalist's stake.









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             The TRUTH about what happened to Knapp... the rest

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 7 Aug 1999 17:38:55 EDT
Fwd Date: Sun, 08 Aug 1999 12:08:22 -0400
Subject: The TRUTH about what happened to Knapp... the rest


Errol Bruce Knapp quits radio, TV and Updates; then changes
mind.

You got it first from TCSUSADHOFMWC&P (The Canal Street
Uofological Society and Discount House of Freshly Made Wine
Cheese and Publishing).  You didn't hear it from that Cheese
Upstart, that Linemann guy or even Rinso and his pro-Eskimo
storm troopers.  You heard it from Doctor JJG...

Not only did DJJG get it first, he published it first and is the
first UFOlogist to print excerpts from his exclusive interview
with the Kanappy.  Eat your hearts out, you so-called "Scoopers"
out there.  Eat your hearts out.

JJG: OK, doc! Tell me what the hell happened, and don't
      spare us any detail.  Remember, we got the goods on tape!

EBK: Well, like I wrote, the euphoria software got intoberated.....

[JJG rudely interrupts]

JJG: Hey, I told you we had the truth here, Kanappy, so cut
      the crappola and tell us the truth.  We got you for that
      motel job, and we're talkin to your friend Bellow. You
      don't wanna hafta go back to jail, be a nice fellow.

EBK: OK you bastards, just gimme some Gripple and move
      that freakin light away from my eyes.  An gimme a
      smoke. I need a smoke when I talk and drink.

JJG: [Gives the perp a smoke and a "special" Gripple]

      Now TALK!

EBK: I hate you, Gesundt.  But the truth is, my wife comes home
      after a little Gripple and Tupperware party and tells me
      she's leaving me for an ESKIMO she met there!

JJG: OK, take it easy.  Have another belt and take a deep breath.
      Feel better?  Good, now continue please.

EBK: Well, I'm afraid I went off the deep end.  I, I, I.... I
      just can't go on with this.  Please, another belt and one
      a' them special hand rolled butts, please.  An, uh, you
      got sumpin ta' eat? I got the munchies.....

The rest of the story is, unfortunately, unprintable due to
Errol's use of improper language.  This is, after all, an
intolerant list.  However we can tell you that Errol wound up on
the streets of Toronto, having visited every Gripple Speakeasy
in town.  And in case you are not aware, Toronto has a lotta
Gripple Speakeasy's.... The poor man somehow arrived in New
York, at our Canal Street Gripple Works Plant number 1, clothes
filthy and with the sour efluvium of his humanity reeking worse
than the local feet we use to stomp our grapes.  It was an awful
sight.  His shirt, one of those K Mart dress shirts, you know,
the ones with the ruffled collar, stained heavily with Pizza
sauce and Grappa juice.  Also, there was, on that collar, the
lipstick pattern of our own Pia cross dresser, Doloras del Rio.

We cleaned, sobered and sprayed him down and proceeded to
interrogate him in order to determine what happened.  He's fine
now.  His beloved returned to him last night, after a three day
affair that was destined to fail. She found out that that old
wive's tail about what blubber does to a man was all a filthy
lie and chose to remain with her beloved but tiny Errol.  All's
well that ends well.  And she even forgave him his indiscretion
over that Pia cross dresser.  Especially after finding out that
she was really a he dressed like a she.  And that the operation
didn't work anyway so he was not a she or a he in disguise after
all. She (he) was an "it!"

So all is forgiven in the Kanappy house and the dermatologist
even remarked that the "666" tattoo was removable, as the ink
used was merely regurgitated Gripple.

Welcome back Doctor Kanappy.  Unfortunately, we at the New York
TCSUSADHOFMWC&P will have to take back our honorary Ph.D. At
least until after you've paid us for putting and cleaning you
up. You owe us $375 for the Gripple, $179.95 for the delousing
and $827.29 to Gripple Hospital for three days in our tank.
Then there are the doctors' bills.  I hope the hell you got
insurance, cause this aint Canada, Pal.  Here, we fork up at
least half a grand a month so we can get ripped off by not only
an insurance company, but the medical people. Which is why we
have great Medical Malpractice laws.

We know a great lawyer, in case you aint insured and aint got
the money to pay them bills.  He takes half.  You pay us with
the other half.

What do you get?  You get to keep your kneecaps!

Love,






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                        Re: Would You Bet The Ranch?

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Sat, 07 Aug 1999 17:36:23 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 08 Aug 1999 12:08:22 -0400
Subject: Re: Would You Bet The Ranch?


 >From: Stephen G. Bassett <ParadigmRG@aol.com>
 >Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 03:33:08 EDT
 >Subject: Would You Bet The Ranch?
 >To: undisclosed-recipients:;

 >August 5, 1999

 >Colleagues and friends,

<snipped solar eclipse serendipity>

 >Who is willing to bet the ranch our visitors are <not>going to
 >raise the ante again with a new, more explicit display impelling
 >us to get off our tuckus, grow up and get on with disclosure?


I should hope so! If it's bad news it's not going to get any
better with age! If it's good news, let's get on with it!

 >Just a late night thought.

. . . Been having those myself.

Lehmberg@snowhill.com


--
Ponder the Wit & Wisdom of Ching Chow!
View "Unstill Life" -- Animation . . . and more.
Consider Matter, Mind & Movement.
See the current HTML "Apology to MW" with illustration.
Take a ride in the Teleporter.

Explore "Alfred Lehmberg's Alien View" at his Fortunecity URL.

http://www.fortunecity.com/roswell/arecibo/46/
<Updated 7 August>

John Ford Restoration Fund -- Send your checks and
money orders to _me_, Alfred Lehmberg
(cut out the lawyers, they got their's) at:
304 Melbourne Drive, Enterprise AL, 36330. Strict records kept.
$350.00 pledged -- $200.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see from
afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, burned at the





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                                  Re: IFOs

From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 7 Aug 1999 23:56:57 +0100
Fwd Date: Sun, 08 Aug 1999 12:08:22 -0400
Subject: Re: IFOs


 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
 >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >Subject: Re: IFOs
 >Date: Tue, 03 Aug 99 18:26:41 PDT

 >>Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 23:27:55 +0100
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
 >>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
 >>Subject: Re: IFOs


 >"a random collection of UFOs," whatever that's supposed to
 >mean).

Before we get too far into this, that was a mistyping for "a
random collection of ufologists". Sorry, I should have put (sic)
after it.

More detailed response follows, if anyone can stand it.

--
John Rimmer





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                         Re: Nick Pope's Weird World

From: Dave Bowden <dave.bowden@cableinet.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 07 Aug 1999 22:32:27 +0000
Fwd Date: Sun, 08 Aug 1999 12:08:22 -0400
Subject: Re: Nick Pope's Weird World


 >From: Jenny Randles <nufon@currantbun.com>
 >To: <updates@globalserve.net>
 >Subject: Re: Nick Pope's Weird World
 >Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 21:50:26 +0100

 >Hi,

 >Further to my message re Georgina Bruni and her Rendlesham book,
 >I should add a sequel.

 >Georgina and I have talked this out between us over the lasat 24
 >hours and have reached an understanding. I am happy with the
 >intent she has for her book as she has explained it to me and we
 >were both victims of something of a mutual misunderstanding
 >brought about by others. She has promised me her book will not
 >delve into politics and the silly tales doing the rounds about
 >me. I have promised to assist her questions on the early days of
 >the Rendlesham case, which I will over the next few days.

 >I wanted to post this message as it offers a positive bit of
 >news. What look like irreconcilable differences can be resolved
 >if you suspend judgement, are willing to listen and to talk
 >through your problems. The medium of the internet can hinder
 >communication via the inability to hear emphasis or judge
 >meaning behind words often written in haste, but it can in cases
 >like this assist it too. Just thought you'd like to know about a
 >problem solved rather than one created.


Hi Jenny,

Thanks a bundle for that. It's refreshing to hear some news
about ufologist's/researchers/whatever actually getting on and
working together.

Restores my faith in what's left of humanity.

I know what you're saying about the e-mail's lack of body
language and pupil dilation, we try to get over it a bit with
the smiley button :) but it still ends up like talking to Data
from Startrek :(

Dave.





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                   Re: What's Wrong With British Ufology?

From: Dave Bowden <dave.bowden@cableinet.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 07 Aug 1999 23:29:51 +0000
Fwd Date: Sun, 08 Aug 1999 12:08:22 -0400
Subject: Re: What's Wrong With British Ufology?


 >From: Martin Phillips <mphillips@btinternet.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
 >Subject: What's Wrong With British Ufology?
 >Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 21:22:33 +0100

 >Dear All,

 >As a subscriber to this list, I'm stunned at the vitriol spewed
 >forth by British ufologists about each other. Every day there's
 >another dispute, every day there's another insult.

 >I'd like to know what purpose all this serves - and don't you
 >think that it undermines your credibility when the general level
 >of debate is so low.

 >I may be naive, but perhaps if you stopped insulting each other
 >and listened for a minute, you may learn something.

 >I hope this isn't taken as a troll message - take it as a plea
 >for calm and reason.


Hi Martin,

I couldn't agree with you more,

I too get sick and tired of this name attacking that name for
whatever reason and at the end of the day it get's nowhere.

It would be nice if all ufologists pooled their resources but
let's face it, we're talking about humans here right! Its only
been a few thousand years since we dropped down from the tree's.

So maybe we should give it some time.

Wanna share a banana?

Dave.





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                         P-47: The Problem Of MUFON

From: Herb Taylor <HerbUFO@AOL.COM>
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 11:51:42 EDT
Fwd Date: Sun, 08 Aug 1999 12:08:22 -0400
Subject: P-47: The Problem Of MUFON

Greetings to the list:

It seems that once again the subject of ufology being in dire
straits has come to the forefront.  Not surprisingly, it
concerns the seeming withering away of MUFON.

This once proud organization is falling apart at the seams, and
has come to represent much of what's wrong in this field.  There
has never been much of a meaningful leadership that cared about
how things were getting done, and that situation has only gotten
worse.

In addition, the departure of Dennis Stacy as editor of the
MUFON Journal was a blow from which they have yet to recover.
He kept the Journal as a worthwhile read, something that I
understand is no longer the case.  This publication now caters
to the naive and gee-whiz element of MUFON, which may well
comprise most members.

I left after being a member for nearly twenty-three years, in
protest of the Journal's loss of integrity.

One may ask, perhaps, whether in fact MUFON as it's now
constituted serves any real purpose, whether it be for its
members, or for research?  Personally, I think the answer to
both is a resounding NO.  Indeed, should it go under, I'll shed
no tears.  Sadly, MUFON has become part of the problem, not part
of the solution.

Regards, Herb Taylor





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                       P-47: Re: The Problem of MUFON

From: William E. Jones <Joneswufo@AOL.COM>
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 22:27:20 EDT
Fwd Date: Sun, 08 Aug 1999 12:08:22 -0400
Subject: P-47: Re: The Problem of MUFON


 >Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 11:51:42 EDT
 >From: HerbUFO@AOL.COM
 >Subject: The Problem Of MUFON
 >To: PROJECT-1947@LISTSERV.AOL.COM


Herb:

I hope you are worng. I think it would be very difficult to
build another organization with the stature of MUFON any time
soon. I would like to think that the objective element of MUFON
can take charge and make it viable well into the next century.
We need a good spokes-organization for ufology that has the ear
of the press and of serious ufologists, one that will represent
our field well and take a leadership role in the dissemination
of quality information.

John Schuessler is Walt's heir apparent. My guess is that he
will assume the leadership role after next year's symposium in
St. Louis. Maybe we should start working on him. Walt did a good
job in building MUFON. It is up to the MUFON Board of Directors,
the membership, and interested quality ufologists like yourself
to make sure that what "Walt has built" is not lost. I hope the
new leadership will get support and take charge soon - not
waiting another year or more - to give the organization new
direction for the 21st Century, as trite as that may sound. This
isn't an issue of Walt's retirement, but of getting new ideas
and implementing them to help build on what has already been
accomplished by Walt and others. MUFON does not have to wait
until Walt retires. Who knows? He could be the driving force
behind these changes if we could just get his attention. Perhps
we need to be more creative in how we express our opinions.

I really think that the proposal Don Weatherby of Springfield,
Ohio (he is a good friend of mine and a member of MUFON of Ohio,
as well as MUFON) made to the Board in July would help establish
the new direction. Having MUFON as the focus of an accessible
data base of UFO reports would put MUFON on the map. I am sure
that this data base would require a lot of support, but as I
understand it we could all enter data from our home computers.
With a lot of peole entering data, the data base could soon
become a force to reckon with. I am not sure how quality is
maintained, but Don has ideas about that. It can be done.

Perhaps those ex-MUFON members who have dropped out over the
years should re-join and make their voices heard.

Other changes, I am sure, need to be undertaken by the Board. I
hope they solicit ideas from the membership and the UFO
community at large. Maybe I am naive. I know that I am hopeful.

Bill Jones
MUFON State Director for Ohio





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                       P-47: Re: The Problem of MUFON

From: Tony Rullan <TonyRullan@AOL.COM>
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1999 17:30:06 EDT
Fwd Date: Sun, 08 Aug 1999 12:08:22 -0400
Subject: P-47: Re: The Problem of MUFON

To Bill, Mark, and others interested in MUFON's future:

I had the pleasure to attend (for the first time) the 1999 MUFON
State Directors meeting on the Friday before the MUFON
conference and made the following observation:

Despite MUFON's mission statement (the systematic collection and
analysis of UFO data, with the ultimate goal of learning the
origin and nature of the UFO phenomenon), the state directors'
meeting had nothing to do with data collection or UFO research.
The main objective of this meeting was for each state director
to report how many members they had, their state's budget,
activities, newsletters, and updates on the recruitment efforts.
Of the 50 states, less than half were present (I am estimating).
In one full day of discussion, very little discussion of UFO
data, analysis, and research was made (with the exception of the
Database proposal).  Nevertheless, I think this type of
discussion is what the MUFON Board wants to hear every year from
state directors.  I was a bit disappointed because I thought
each State Director was going to report the latest cases, share
info on the best resources available to conduct research,
present results on studies conducted on their states, and
mention any updates that will further the study of the nature of
the UFO phenomena.

A more useful setup for a full day discussion would have been to
have Committee Chairpersons report on the latest research on a
particular topic (History, Physical Traces, Abduction, etc.,
etc.).  This would require that MUFON reorganize by Committee on
Research Topics instead of Geographic Location.  Committee
Chairpersons will then organize MUFON members according to
interest and research activities and not just location.  Group
efforts from people with common interests and goals are more
conducive to results than group efforts from people whose only
commonality is that they live in the same state.

As I thought more about this idea, I decided to reject it and
not to recommend it.  I realized that many MUFON chapters get
together mainly for entertainment purposes.  Many people go to
monthly MUFON meetings to be entertained with exciting stories.
They don't want to join committees to do work.  Moreover, MUFON
is interested in increasing the membership (which was the main
focus of the State Directors meeting) and I believe MUFON can
increase the membership via State Directors pushing agendas that
(no matter how wild and speculative) will draw more members. I
am generalizing, so please do not take offense.  Despite my
comments above, there are several State Directors who are real
visionaries, energetic, and smart who are trying to do the right
thing at the state level.  But a few great State Directors
cannot pull a National organization.


I felt compelled to share my opinion since some of you also want
MUFON to improve.  However, at this point I rather do individual
research rather than try to change the MUFON organization.  I
will leave that to others with more political acumen.

Regards,
Tony Rullan





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                        C-E: Hubble Moon Photos Found

From: Kutovoy, Anatoly <kutovoj@MAIL.IAE.LT>
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 08:09:58 +0200
Fwd Date: Sun, 08 Aug 1999 12:08:22 -0400
Subject: C-E: Hubble Moon Photos Found


NASA Lied Again - Hubble Moon Photos Found

http://oposite.stsci.edu/pubinfo/pr/1999/14/pr-photos.html

The Space Telescope Science Institute (STSI) released pictures
of a celestial object that most people thought the Hubble
telescope was not allowed to view: our own Moon. - Sky and
Telescope Magazine. Many People have requested NASA to cause the
Hubble Space Telescope to be pointed towards the Moon and send
back high resolution pictures of any or all of the alleged
Apollo Lunar landing sites showing any equipment left behind
such as the LEM pads, or anything large enough to be spotted by
the HST at an average distance of perhaps 1.28 billion feet,
which is an average of about 15,400,000,000 inches distance from
Earth. NASA objected stating, "the Moon is too bright", commonly
followed-up by, "the Hubble can't focus on something that close"
[250,000 miles?]. We knew that this was a lie since the HST has
sufficient resolution to return exquisitely clear images of the
Lunar landscape. Positive evidence has turned up that indeed
NASA & Co. have been lying all along about this Moon is too
bright/too close balderdash. I'd just like to say... See?... I
told you so. - Bible Thumper

HEY NASA! Now that we know you CAN do it... how about taking
high resolution close up photos using the Hubble Telescope of
the following alleged Apollo landing locations on the Lunar
surface: Mare Tranquillitatis 0.67N - 23.49E, Oceanus
Procellarum 3.20S - 23.38W, Fra Mauro 3.67S - 17.47W, Hadley
Rille 26.10N - 3.65E, Descartes 8.99S - 15.51E, Taurus-Littrow
20.16N - 30.76E

What lie will NASA tell now?






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              'Strange Days...Indeed' - Tonight: Wendy Connors

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
Date: Sun, 08 Aug 1999 14:45:39 -0400
Fwd Date: Sun, 08 Aug 1999 14:45:39 -0400
Subject: 'Strange Days...Indeed' - Tonight: Wendy Connors




From: UFO UpDates - Toronto

On 'Strange Days... Indeed' tonight, Wendy A. Connors head of
the Project Sign Research Center in Albuquerque, New Mexico.
Wendy's a private researcher, a Ufololgical Historian specializing
in the historical aspects of Project SIGN.

For those of you haven't visited the Project Sign Research
Center website - you should. There's a wealth of historical
information there, at:

www.projectsign.com

Join co-host Jonn Kares and I along with Wendy on 'Strange
Days...Indeed' tonight.

The program starts at 11:00pm EST on

1010 CFRB AM - 50,000 watts 'Clear-Channel'

6070khz Shortwave

and you can listen via Media Player at:

www.cfrb.com/

You'll need to access the site using Internet Explorer since
Media Player seems to choke using any version of Netscape -
thanks Mr. Bill!


To call the program 'live', dial:

On-Air    416-872-1010
           1-800-561-CFRB [all over North America]
           *TALK [local mobiles]


ebk





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                           Re: Arnold Saw Pelicans

From: Dave Bowden <dave.bowden@cableinet.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 08 Aug 1999 01:37:04 +0000
Fwd Date: Mon, 09 Aug 1999 11:18:03 -0400
Subject: Re: Arnold Saw Pelicans


 >Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 11:12:11 -0400
 >From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >Subject: Re: Arnold Saw Pelicans
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>


<snip>


 >A "less than once in a lifetime event." HAHAHAHA May I suggest
 >you take Occam's Razor and shave off the pelicans (unless you
 >can prove pelicans can fly faster than 100 mph at 9,200 ft
 >altitude)

Oh God, how long's this Pelican thing going to go on for.

The guy was a qualified pilot, he saw something unusual, he
reported it. It obviously wasn't birds of any kind because a
qualified pilot would have recognised that.

Judging by this report maybe he should have kept his mouth shut,
the way so many pilots wished they had kept their mouths shut in
the years following.

I really don't see the logic of this debate.

Dave.





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                 Research Proposal - Hypnotic Suggestibility

From: Tim D. Brigham <TBrigham@ksinc.net>
Date: Sat, 7 Aug 1999 23:39:00 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 09 Aug 1999 11:20:34 -0400
Subject: Research Proposal - Hypnotic Suggestibility


Subject: Research Proposal - Hypnotic Suggestibility, Event
Related Brain Potentials, and Paranormal Experiences

Hello all,

After some talk with various members of this list in regards to
abduction research, I have finally finished a rough draft of a
research proposal which grew out of these discussions. It has
changed quite a bit from my original intentions and is less
obviously related to UFOs. Original plans were to have abduction
experiencers be specifically sought out and have them examine
ambiguous stimuli while brain potentials were recorded via EEG,
and these results would be compared to controls. The focus has
shifted to examine the theoretical "fantasy prone personality,"
paranormal belief and experiences, and how all of this may may
relate to hypnotic suggestibility as well as what goes on in the
brain when people evaluate ambiguous stimuli. I think it has
taken on a more 'doable' (and yes, conservative) form, and may
lay some groundwork for future research which is more directly
related to UFOs/abductions. I have in no way written off more
directly related UFO/abduction studies, and I hope to get the
chance to push the envelope a bit more in the future. The
abstract follows, as well as an earlier "pre-proposal" which
gives a bit more detail. If anyone cares to review the full
proposal, feel free to request it (just so I can avoid spamming
20 pages over the list to those who dont want it).

Best,

Tim Brigham
---

Research Proposal:
Hypnotic Suggestibility, Event Related Potentials, Stimulus
Ambiguity, and Fantasy Proneness

Abstract

The proposed study aims to explore the nature of hypnotic
suggestibility and how decisions are made regarding ambiguous
external stimuli. Three categories of visual stimuli, differing
in ambiguity, will be presented immediately following recorded
oral statements regarding these stimuli. Some of these
statements will be accurate while others will be inaccurate.
Participants will indicate agreement or disagreement with the
oral statement after the visual stimuli is presented. Event
Related Potential data will be obtained via scalp electrodes
during stimulus trials, and this data will allow objective
measurement and comparison of cognitive processes at work.
Fantasy proneness, cognitive failures, and reports of personal
paranormal experiences and beliefs will also be measured. The
researcher hypothesizes that highly hypnotizable participants
will demonstrate a greater degree of suggestibility than low
hypnotizables while in a hypnotic state of the same depth. It is
further hypothesized that fantasy proneness and cognitive
failures will correlate positively with hypnotic suggestibility.

____________________

Pre-Proposal

Hypnotic Suggestibility, Event Related Potentials, Stimulus
Ambiguity, Fantasy Proneness, and Paranormal Experiences


The proposed study aims to explore the nature of hypnotic
suggestibility and how decisions are made regarding ambiguous
stimuli. Event Related Potential data will be obtained via scalp
electrodes during stimulus trials, and this data will allow
objective measurement and comparison of cognitive events at work.
It is also hoped that data will be gathered that will provide
information regarding if and how decision making processes are
related to fantasy proneness and level of hypnotizability. A
total of 30 participants will be involved in the study, with 15
selected because they test "high in hypnotizability" and the
remaining 15 because they test "low in hypnotizability." All
participants will be involved in the research in both hypnotized,
and 'normal,' states of consciousness. Randomization and counter-
balancing will be used in determining the order of each
individual's participation, and the order in which groups of
stimuli are presented.

Participants will be presented with images (via a computer
monitor) using the STIM system located in the Neurocognition Lab
at The University of West Florida, and oral statements regarding
the nature of these stimuli will be presented by the researcher,
in pre- recorded form, just before each image is presented.
Participants will indicate whether they agree disagree with the
oral statement presented by pressing the corresponding button on
a provided input device.

Three categories of images will be used as stimuli. The first
category of images presented will be extremely simple in nature.
In 50% of images in this category, the screen will be filled with
a solid color. The researcher will present an oral statement
regarding the nature of the stimulus. In half of these cases the
statement will be accurate regarding the nature of the stimulus
("true"), while in other cases it will be obviously inaccurate
("false"). As an example of an accurate statement, in a case in
which the screen color is green, the researcher would state "The
screen color will be green." In the inaccurate cases, the
researcher might state, before a green screen is presented, "This
is blue." Simple geometric shapes will also be presented
(independently) as stimuli in 50% of the trials. In these cases,
the researcher will either accurately describe the upcoming
stimulus' shape or inaccurately describe it (e.g. "This is a
triangle").

The second category of images will be selected from the Rorschach
Test and will, therefore, be much more ambiguous in nature.
Statements regarding the stimuli will again be presented, in this
case, suggestions as to what the image resembles. Some of these
statements will be selected because they are  statements commonly
made by people who view that particular Rorschach blot (ex. "This
resembles a butterfly."), while other statements will be crafted
so that they bear little resemblance to the image  (e.g. the
statement that "This is a hammer" when it's shape obviously does
not resemble a hammer).

The third category of images will be selected from the Thematic
Apperception Test (TAT), and will also be ambiguous in nature.
The oral statements presented preceding these images will be
regarding the nature of events supposedly depicted. Similar to
the Rorschach images, some of these statements will be selected
from responses commonly given by people who are being
administered the TAT (ex. "This man is preparing for work"),
while other statements regarding the events pictured will be
selected because they would require a much larger cognitive 'leap
' agreement.

In addition, all participants will undergo a brief "control data"
gathering session, in which they are instructed, while in an
ordinary state of consciousness, to deliberately indicate
agreement with statements which they consciously know to be
inaccurate or false. ERPs will be recording during these sessions
and the results will be used to determine if episodes in which
participants are consciously acting against their own judgements
differ from data gathered in which 'misjudgments' are presumed to
be unintentional or the result of hypnotic suggestion.

Tests administered to participants will include: The Stanford
Hypnotic Susceptibility Scale, which will be the first test
administered to potential participants, to evaluate their level
of hypnotizability. Once participants have been selected, more
tests will be administered. The Inventory of Childhood Memories
and Imaginings (ICMI), a modified version of The Paranormal
Belief Scales (PBS), and The Creative Experiences Questionnaire
(CEQ), will be administered to assess if any of the participants
can be classified as "Fantasy Prone Personalities." Results of
these tests will be evaluated to determine if they yield any
correlation to hypnotizability or participants' accuracy in
judging the ambiguous stimuli. The Dissociative Experiences Scale
(DES), The Cognitive Failures Questionnaire (CFQ), will also be
administered.

Information gathered from this study will include: Are
participants more prone to agree with inaccurate statements when
hypnotized? Do participants scoring high on hypnotizability make
these inaccurate judgements more often than participants who
score low in hypnotizability? Do the ERPs of participants who
agree with inaccurate statements indicate that they truly do not
perceive any incongruence, and is this influenced by whether they
are in an 'ordinary' or hypnotized state of consciousness? And
are there correlational relationship(s) between, fantasy
proneness, hypnotizability, and suggestibility?









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              CPR-Canada News: 'Basket Weaving 101' at Roundway

From: Paul Anderson - TMP / CPR-Canada <psa@direct.ca>
Date: Sat, 7 Aug 1999 23:30:50 -0800
Fwd Date: Mon, 09 Aug 1999 11:23:48 -0400
Subject: CPR-Canada News: 'Basket Weaving 101' at Roundway


CPR-Canada News
News and Updates from Circles Phenomenon Research Canada

http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Cavern/3310


"Basket Weaving 101 at Roundway Hill"

August 7, 1999

_____________________________


With a season of many amazing and beautiful formations already
in England, this one certainly puts a new twist on things ("and
now for something completely different") - the latest formation,
at Roundway Hill, Wiltshire (the second now at this location),
displays a floor pattern which is literally "woven like a
basket" amid numerous thin rings of standing crop.
Unfortunately, the farmer cut the formation down almost
immediately after its discovery. However, Ulrich Kox was able to
take aerial photos before it met its fate. Some of his pictures
(as well as of many other circles) can be seen here (the top
three images in the left-hand menu):

http://cropcircleconnector.com/Sorensen/circles/1999/main.html

Or on the main 1999 page:

http://cropcircleconnector.com/1999/1999.html

Now, with the much-anticipated eclipse only four days away,
what may we expect next?


Paul Anderson
Director
Circles Phenomenon Research Canada

_____________________________


See the Circle Phenomena in Canada Report Archive 1999
for updates on Canadian crop circle reports as additional
information becomes available:

(http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Cavern/3310/1999.html)

A reminder for all Canadian subscribers / readers - your
assistance is welcome and needed - ANY reports of other
possible circles this year, please do let us know as soon as
possible! See Reporting and Field Research Guidelines on the
web site for more information:

(http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Cavern/3310/reporting.html).

_____________________________


CPR-Canada News is the e-mail update service of
Circles Phenomenon Research Canada, and is published
periodically or as breaking news develops, with the
latest news and information and is available free by
subscription; to be added to or removed from the mailing
list, send your request, including "subscribe CPR-Canada
News" or "unsubscribe CPR-Canada News" and e-mail
address to:

psa@direct.c

CPR-Canada welcomes your reports and submissions.
Forward all correspondence to:


CIRCLES PHENOMENON RESEARCH CANADA
Circles Phenomenon Research International

Main Office

Suite 202 - 2086 West 2nd Avenue
Vancouver, BC  V6J 1J4  Canada
Tel / Fax: 604.731.8522
E-Mail: psa@direct.ca
Web: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Cavern/3310


� Circles Phenomenon Research Canada, 1999







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                      Re: The Stupidity Within Ufology

From: Dave Baker <davbak@globalnet.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 8 Aug 1999 10:08:48 +0100
Fwd Date: Mon, 09 Aug 1999 11:30:06 -0400
Subject: Re: The Stupidity Within Ufology


 >From: Max Burns <MBurns6711@cs.com>
 >Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1999 15:17:54 EDT
 >Subject: Re: P-47: The Stupidity within Ufology
 >To: updates@globalserve.net

 >>From: Richard D. Nolane <raynaud@total.net>
 >>To: <updates@globalserve.net>
 >>Subject: Re: P-47 :The Stupidity within Ufology
 >>Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 11:22:13 -0500

 >>>Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 23:50:54 -0600
 >>>From: Wendy Connors <ProjectSign@EMAIL.MSN.COM>
 >>>Subject: The Stupidity Within Ufology
 >>>To: PROJECT-1947@LISTSERV.AOL.COM

 ><snip>

 >The "Usual Suspects", as I like to call them with some
 >affection.. I agree that the petty squabling that has gone on
 >over this case is very childish, but the sceptics need all the
 >ammo they can muster, including whether or not I have paid my
 >gas bill, council tax, whatever. and really has nothing to do
 >with this case or any case for that matter.

 >And when I ask them to answer questions to this list that they
 >don't like. They just ignore  them, and revert back to whether I
 >have paid my council tax morning

 >And so the game goes on


Max, the Usual Suspects, & the List

I don't recall Max asking questions of his Usual Suspects which
they choose to ignore. It's more like the other way round.

1)The name of the pilot or co-pilot who was killed

2) The registration number (or whatever) of the RAF/NATO Tornado
that was shot down

etc., etc. (we've all seen these questions before)

I'm going to forget any personal issues between these guys, poll
tax bills, calls to the courts, hate mail between the parties
etc etc, we've all heard that lot before too, and have probably
all made up our own minds on who is right, telling the truth,
and all the rest.

My question to Max and the group, is how the 'pilot /co-pilot'
found wandering on the Snake pass ( and on whose existence Max's
entire case rests) managed to escape alive from a crashed or
crashing jet while covered in aviation fuel.

Come on...on a logical basis, how did he do it? Forget UFOs,
triangles, crash-retrieval teams and whether or not Dr. Dave
Clarke, Andy Roberts, Tim Matthews etc are in the pay of DI6,
MI5, Mossad, DOA, NSA, NASA, the Masons, the Illuminatum, or the
frikkin' Teletubbies, how did this pilot/co-pilot escape a
crashing or crashed jet whilst covered in aviation fuel without
going up in flames, or one hell of an explosion? Who was this
guy? James Bond?

That's all I want to know.

Suppose this makes me a Usual Suspect now...

Dave Baker









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              Re: Sighting Reports Via UFO Scotland Website And

From: Tony Spurrier <TSpurrier@compuserve.com>
Date: Sun, 8 Aug 1999 06:51:31 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 09 Aug 1999 11:39:30 -0400
Subject: Re: Sighting Reports Via UFO Scotland Website And


 >Date: Mon, 02 Aug 1999 16:03:53 +0100
 >From: Dave Ledger <dledger@cableinet.co.uk>
 >To: UFO SCOTLAND MAIL <ufomail@multiweb.force9.co.uk>
 >Subject: Sighting Reports Via UFO Scotland Website And My Rant!

Hi Dave

How's things?

 >Here's hoping that we can all start to work together sharing our
 >findings and being civil to eachother, whilst we all go about
 >our various quests to uncover the truth behind this bizarre
 >phenomena. Teamwork, consideration and respect for other
 >researchers and their work, will achieve results through time.

Well said.

 >Are we going to be sitting here in 10, 20 or thirty years from
 >now with exactly the same feelings and questions?  I sure hope
 >not!  Not one group or researcher can do this or find all of the
 >hidden answers on their own. We all need eachother and have to
 >work together as a large and organised unit, if we want to avoid
 >asking these same questions again in a few decades time.

This was exactly my point recently, let's work together and
agree a standard of evidence. What happens now is one person or
group will say a case proves an ET craft, another will say it
doesn't, an argument ensues and the truth of the case gets lost
in the bickering.

Ufology in the UK seems to be a relgion to some to prove ET's
exist rather than looking objectively at the evidence. We then
hear the opinion first with the facts being with held. I would
prefer the facts to be presented with the details of the
investigation to assess what action has taken place to identify
the sighting. Then opinion can be left to the individuals and
follow up investigations by anyone interested in the sighting,
case or whatever.

Simply put, facts first - opinions later.

Tony





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                           Re: Arnold Saw Pelicans

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Sun, 8 Aug 1999 11:00:52 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 09 Aug 1999 11:50:37 -0400
Subject: Re: Arnold Saw Pelicans


 >From: Kathleen Anderson <KAnder6444@aol.com>
 >Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 19:23:31 EDT
 >Subject: Re: Arnold Saw Pelicans
 >To: updates@globalserve.net


 >There is one major point all your pelican lovers are missing.
 >The perception of the mass of Mt. Rainier is very deceiving by
 >visual observation. Why do we have so many climbing accidents
 >every year here? Because of this reason. Its so clear and
 >prominent, rising from sea level to 14,410 feet in a matter of
 >60 miles, that is hard to actually understand its size and what
 >can be seen or not seen by the naked eye.

 >OK so I was up there this weekend. Actually on Mt. Rainier --
 >not observing it from 35 miles as last week. I started hiking at
 >Sunrise 6,100 feet and managed (huffing and puffing) to a fire
 >tower at 7,100 feet and about 4 "flat miles" to the summit. The
 >view looks like the summit is right there. But one has to
 >>additional 7,000 some odd feet below it.

 >Being that close, I shot some video of climbers on a trail. They
 >were 1/2 mile from me but on another ridge. You could not make
 >them out without the aid of my telephoto lens. They just blended
 >in the mass. What's a human in size? Average 5 to 6 feet? How do
t>hey compare to a pelican? How could you see a pelican at
 >Arnold's distance when you cannot even distinguish a human who
 >is less than a mile away from you?>


Note that the pelican hypothesis does not assume that the
pelicans were over th mountains. Rather it assumes that they
were about 20 miles west of th mountains, near Arnold (within a
mile or two). The question then is, would there have been
pelicans flying at high altitude 20 miles west of Rainier?

Of course, the pelican hypothesis also assumes that pelicans
could be seen by their bright reflections - like polished metal
- at distances greater than it would be possible to see the
bodies at least as dots.

As I pointed out in an earlier message (which may not have been
posted) a mirror reflection can be seen much farther than a
diffuse reflection (as from a bird body). Hence "real UFOs:"
might be detected by solar reflection farther then they could be
seen as objects, whereas pelicans could only be seen as far as
it would be possible to see the bodies directly (maybe up to 4
miles?). And, of course, they would never seem to reflect the





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                 New Free Internet UFO/Paranormal TV Station

From: Mark Hall <capn_black@msn.com>
Date: Sun, 8 Aug 1999 23:33:09 +0100
Fwd Date: Mon, 09 Aug 1999 12:13:45 -0400
Subject: New Free Internet UFO/Paranormal TV Station


The Enigma Channel is one of three new TV networks being
launched in association with EAVAP - the European Academy of
Video & Audio Production - which is having a �3million broadcast
studio complex being built at Alexandra Palace London, England.
Alexandra Palace was the place where John Logie Baird first
broadcast television pictures fifty years ago.  Now, as we enter
the 21st Century, it is once again the epicentre of an important
technological breakthrough in television. The Enigma Channel is
the first TV network specifically designed to broadcast
documentaries about esoteric subjects on the Internet.

The Enigma Channel is a completely FREE TV service offering
programmes 'on demand'. There are several programme categories
for viewers to choose from including UFOs, Crop Circles, Earth
Mysteries, The Paranormal, New Science, Religion & Politics.
Once a viewer has located a programme which they want to watch
it is simply a matter of clicking on the title, and after just a
brief pause the programme will start to roll.

You do not need any special equipment to watch The Enigma
Channel.  It doesn't matter if you have a PC or a Mac - once you
have the Enigma Channel 'GAP' software downloaded (which takes
just 2 minutes) everyone will be able to watch.  You can use any
Browser and any standard modem. Netscape Navigator 4.0 & a 56K
modem is recommended for better picture quality - but even
viewers with 28.8 modems will be able to enjoy the wide range of
exciting, esoteric programmes on offer. The new breed of
satellite 'surf boxes' which allow you to surf the internet via
a standard satellite TV dish will enable you to watch The Enigma
Channel on your standard TV, alongside all your favourite TV
channels.

The Enigma Channel has a potential english-speaking on-line
audience of 500 million people - far bigger than any cable or
satellite TV network presently in operation.  Arabic, Spanish
and Japanese sub-titled services of the Enigma Channel will be
launched in the 4th quarter of 2000. Test transmissions will
start at 9pm GMT on the 9.9.99.  Viewers will be able to apply
for their FREE Enigma Channel TV License at www.enigmatv.com
later this year. Full Service will start at 6pm GMT on Christmas
Day 1999.

The documentaries transmitted are exclusive to The Enigma
Channel, have never before been seen on TV and can be bought on
VHS tape from the Enigma Channel on-line shop.  The Enigma
Channel will be launching an on-line interactive TV Guide called
"ZAP! Magazine" which will list all the programmes on the
channel plus information about other on-line TV stations such as
The Healing Channel & D.I.Y.- TV.

Chairman/CEO of The Enigma Channel, Christopher Everard,
addressed the Digital Media Convention in London last week; "The
Enigma Channel's programme content exactly matches the on-line
demographics of the Internet. Our pre-launch market research
suggests we'll be having over 9.6million viewers per day.  After
one year on the air, we'll be attracting more viewers than some
UHF TV channels!  We are part of a grassroots revolution in
Television which will eventually see the TRUTH broadcast - not
merely items that fit in with the government's agenda. The
Enigma Channel is committed to bringing people high quality
in-depth documentaries about subjects which the mainstream media
refuse to cover in a serious way.  Our first season of
programmes features over 4 hours of Crop Circle documentaries -
all made by people who have a deep empathy for the subject -
that's more TV airtime than all the TV stations in the whole
world have dedicated to the subject in the last 20 years!  The
Enigma Channel is the best way of finding out up to date
information on UFOs, Crop Circles, Earth Mysteries and other
esoteric subjects. You can watch what you want to watch -
whenever you want to watch it - for FREE! The Internet is
changing everything - especially who will own TV in the future -
big business, or the viewer... the Internet is on the viewer's
side!  When your children ask you about aliens, the pyramids or
flying saucers in the future, you won't have to lie to them, or
repeat to them the disinformation handed out by governments -
you'll be able to get the facts - instantaneously. For free."
PRESS INFO: Tel. 0044 (0)181 850 2109 / e-mail:
enigmatv@iname.com

* The Enigma Channel has released a new documentary about Crop
Circles called "CROP CIRCLE UPDATE 1999". This documentary lasts
for nearly 3 HOURS and features high quality photography and
video footage of all the major British formations from the 1980s
to June 1999.  It has been produced especially for those people
who wish to have a complete, chronological selection of all the
biggest and most impressive pictograms - this documentary
features interviews with Andy Thomas, the author of Vital Signs,
Karen Douglas, who discusses the links between Crop Circle
geometry and the science of Cymatics and Wilhelm Reich's Orgone
Energy, and also stunning visuals by award winning photographer,
Steve Alexander.

* All the most important pieces of amateur UFO footage shot
between 1990 and 1996 in and around fields where crop circles
have appeared is included in this documentary - including the
infamous Oliver's Castle footage - which the programme makers
have enhanced using the latest computer graphics technology.
The Oliver's Castle footage shows several 'luminosities' flying
over a field and a crop circle appears miraculously under them.
The enhanced segments of this important footage reveal more UFO
activity than had previously been detected - including some
classic 'flying saucer-shaped' anomalous objects. Although
written off as a 'hoax' by some, the new enhanced version of
this important footage seems to suggest that it is absolutely
genuine.

* CROP CIRCLE UPDATE 1999 uses images from ancient Islamic,
Hermetic, Egyptian and Hebrew texts on Sacred Geometry to show
how 'classical' and 'magical' geometry are often used to great
effect in the British Crop Circles.  The chronological 'family
tree' of British pictograms reveals that Crop Circle patterns
often have a 'prophetic' undertone - some crop formations
hinting at gene-manipulation and DNA experiments just prior to
the introduction of GM Crops and Food in 1996. There are also
strong links between Islamic 'Hilal' geometry and ancient
religious/spiritual motifs such as mandalas, ankhs & crescents.

* American regression therapist, Barbara Lamb, discusses her
'close encounter' with a luminosity and gives her opinion on the
possible E.T. connection with the Crop Circles. Author and
Professional Astrologer, Palden Jenkins, offers his learned
opinions based on a lifetime of studying high level channelling
projects, working with psychics and researching the ET-UFO
phenomenon. CROP CIRCLE UPDATE 1999 also includes an interview
with leading Dutch researcher, Janet Ossebaard, who reveals how
the Crop Circles have been with us throughout the 20th Century -
not just in recent decades.

* Overall, Crop Circle Update 1999 is the most comprehensive and
sympathetic documentary ever made about the British Crop Circle
phenomenon. It is available at a reduced price to all members of
CCCS, CPRI, VURA and The Enigma Channel's Viewer's Club.

* Cheques Made Payable to: THE ENIGMA CHANNEL, 163 Churchbury
Road London SE9 5JB UK (please state PAL or NTSC required).
PRESS INFO: Tel. 0044 (0) 181 850 2109  E-mail:
chris-e@dircon.co.uk

Mark Hall
UFO Community On MSN http://communities.msn.com/ufo/
CSETI www.cseti.org





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                          BWW Media Alert 19990808

From: BufoCalvin@aol.com
Date: Sun, 8 Aug 1999 13:16:17 EDT
Fwd Date: Mon, 09 Aug 1999 15:04:09 -0400
Subject: BWW Media Alert 19990808


Bufo Calvin
P O Box 5231, Walnut Creek, CA 94596
Internet: BufoCalvin@aol.com
Website: <A
HREF="http://members.aol.com/bufocalvin">http://members.aol.com/bufocalvin<;/A>
<A HREF="http://www.onelist.com/subscribe/bwnl">Bufo's WEIRD NEWS LINKS</A>
<A
HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/redirect-home/bufosweirdworld">Link
to Amazon.com</A>
ALL RIGHTS RESERVED (permission is granted to reproduce or redistribute this
edition of Bufo's WEIRD WORLD provided that attribution is made to
http://members.aol.com/bufocalvin. It is good etiquette to check with
strangers before you e-mail them something. If you forward this, please make
sure it is clear that you are forwarding it).

August 8, 1999

As usual, let me know what you think at <A HREF="mailto:
bufocalvin@aol.com">BufoCalvin@aol.com</A>.

On to the listings: Times are generally Pacific.

RADIO

Eddie Middleton's very popular show in the South, Nightsearch, has a website
at <A HREF="http://listen.to/nightsearch">http://listen.to/nightsearch<;/A>.
Starting soon, the new website at <A
HREF="http://www.nightsearch.net/">http://www.nightsearch.net/<;/A>.
Unfortunately, no streaming audio. Sundays from 2:00 to 4:00 PM (Pacific).
The call-in line is 901-365-1430.

Don Ecker, of UFO MAGAZINE, hosts STRANGE DAZE on the Liberty Works. It can
be heard on streaming Real Audio at <A
HREF="http://www.broadcast.com/radio/talk/lwrn">http://www.broadcast.com/radio
/talk/lwrn</A>.

Ken Dashow, THE EDGE OF REALITY, Sundays at 9:00 PM, Fridays at 5:00 PM.
Dashow is known for his sarcastic wit. <A
HREF="http://www.talkamerica.com/dashow.html">http://www.talkamerica.com/dasho
w.html</A> and <A
HREF="http://www.dashow.com/edge.html">http://www.dashow.com/edge.html<;/A>.
There is some dispute on these times. A correspondent tells me (thanks! If
you'd like to be acknowledged on the list, let me know) that it runs from
5:00 PM to 8:00 PM (Pacific...that's how times are generally listed here),
with a repeat from 8:00 PM to 11:00 PM on Saturdays.

Mike Jarmus, REALITY AND BEYOND, 7:00 PM Sundays, <A
HREF="http://spectrum.orn.com/omega.ram">http://spectrum.orn.com/omega.ram<;/A>
. Streaming audio available

Art Bell - DREAMLAND
Currently, the most popular talk show on this area. <A
HREF="http://www.artbell.com/">http://www.artbell.com/<;/A>. Live streaming
audio (and video) available.

Jeff Rense - SIGHTINGS
Jeff is well-versed on the topics, but likes to let the guests speak,
resulting in one of the best radio shows on these topics. You can hear Real
Audio of the show, and there are archives as well. Go to <A
HREF="http://www.sightings.com/">http://www.sightings.com/<;/A> for more
information. The show is on at 7:00 PM Pacific Monday through Friday, and
8:00 PM Pacific on Sunday. You can hear it anywhere through your computer.
Please note that Jeff also often covers topics which I do not consider
relevant to this list. To subscribe to the Jeff Rense Weekly E-news (which
includes articles and a complete guest listing), e-mail (subject: Subscribe)
<A HREF="mailto:jocelyn@dewittec.net">mailto:jocelyn@dewittec.net</A>.

Sunday, August 8, 8:00 PM, Col. John Alexander (futuristic weaponry...include
some weird stuff, probably)
Monday, August 9, 7:00 PM, Joyce Murphy, live from England on crop circles
Tuesday, August 10, 7:00 PM, Annie Kirkwood, Marian messages
Wednesday, August 11, 7:00 PM, Michael Lindemann, Weekly UFO/World report;
Joyce Murphy live from England
Thursday, August 12, 7:00 PM, John Mini on the Mayan day of destiny; author
Paul Stonehill on Russian ufology
Friday, August 13, 7:00 PM, Brad Steiger

Paul Williams and Scott Carr: UFO DESK
This New York show has been around for years, but is now available on
streaming audio. The website is <A
HREF="http://www.escape.com/~paulw/ufodesk.html">http://www.escape.com/~paulw/
ufodesk.html</A>. It runs at 8:00 PM (Pacific) on Sundays.

Jeff Mishlove AND THE VIRTUAL UNIVERSITY
Webcast every weekday at 8:00 PM for two hours, with a repeat at 10:00 PM.
Webcast at <A
HREF="http://www.wisdomradio.com/">http://www.wisdomradio.com/<;/A>.

ERSKINE OVERNIGHT
Webcast 9:00 PM to Midnight with an immediate repeat at <A
HREF="http://www.talkamerica.com/">Talkamerica.com</A>.

TELEVISION

A&E (USA)

Sunday, August 8, 11:00 AM, THE UNEXPLAINED: MODERN PSYCHICS

BBC (Australia) (Time zone unknown)

Saturday, August 14, 12:10 AM, INVESTIGATING UFOS
Next Sunday, August 15, 7:10 AM, INVESTIGATING UFOS
Next Sunday, August 15, 7:10 PM, INVESTIGATING UFOS

CBS (USA)

Friday, August 13, 8:00 PM, UNSOLVED MYSTERIES (includes exorcism)

DISCOVERY CHANNEL (EUROPE) (ALL TIMES GMT+1)

Monday, August 9, 10:25 AM, ARTHUR C. CLARKE'S MYSTERIOUS WORLD: CABINET OF
CURIOUSITIES (includes the moving rocks of Death Valley)
Monday, August 9, 12:15 PM, ARTHUR C. CLARKE'S MYSTERIOUS UNIVERSE: INTO THIN
AIR (disappearances)
Tuesday, August 10, 10:25 AM, ARTHUR C. CLARKE'S WORLD OF STRANGE POWERS:
WARNINGS FROM THE FUTURE
Wednesday, August 11, 10:25 AM, ARTHUR C. CLARKE'S WORLD OF STRANGE POWERS:
THINGS THAT GO BUMP IN THE NIGHT (poltergeists)

THE DISCOVERY CHANNEL (USA)

Saturday, August 14, 5:00 PM, AMERICA'S HAUNTED HOUSES
Next Thursday, August 19, 10:00 PM, INTO THE UNKNOWN: GHOSTS AND UFOS (pilot
UFO encounters; New Zealand UFO; haunted British castles)
Next Friday, August 20, 1:00 AM, INTO THE UNKNOWN: GHOSTS AND UFOS (pilot UFO
encounters; New Zealand UFO; haunted British castles)

E! (USA)
Sunday, August 8, 7:30 AM, FASHION EMERGENCY (includes psychic)

FOX SOAP TALK (Australia) (Time zone unknown)

Thursday, August 12, 10:30 PM, THE UNEXPLAINED: PSYCHIC DETECTIVES
Friday, August 13, 2:30 AM, THE UNEXPLAINED: PSYCHIC DETECTIVES
Next Sunday, August 15, 12:30 AM, THE UNEXPLAINED: PSYCHIC DETECTIVES
Next Sunday, August 15, 4:30 AM, THE UNEXPLAINED: PSYCHIC DETECTIVES

HISTORY CHANNEL (USA)

Next Thursday, August 19, 8:30 AM, HISTORY'S CRIMES AND TRIALS (includes the
"Amityville Horror")
Next Thursday, August 19, 1:30 PM, HISTORY'S CRIMES AND TRIALS (includes the
"Amityville Horror")

LOCAL TELEVISION (USA)

BEYOND THE UNEXPLAINED WITH JANET RUSSELL
Janet does get major guests on her show.  Check with your local cable company
to see if it is cablecasting the show.  Specific guest information not
currently available.
SUNDAYS Cablevision of Woodbury NY
        CH 25/80/96  9:30PM
MONDAYS Cablevision of Riverhead NY
        CH 27        10:00AM
        Manhattan Neighborhood Network NY
        CH 56        1:30AM
TUESDAYS Cablevision of Yorktown Heights NY
         CH 34       8:30PM
         Community TV of Sante Fe New Mexico
         CH 8        8:30PM
WEDNESDAYS Gateway Access "12" SpringCreek NY
           CH 12     8:30PM
           Pac "8" TV of Los Alamos N.Mexico
           CH8       4:00 PM
THURSDAY Cablevision of Hauppague NY
          CH 25       5PM
          LTV of Easthampton NY
          CH 27       10:00 AM
FRIDAY   Cablevision of Brookhaven NY
          CH 99          9:30PM
          PAC 8 of Los Alamos New Mexico
          CH 8           9:00 PM
SATURDAY Cablevision of Westchester NY
          CH 58/37        2:00 PM

THE SCIENCE CHANNEL (USA)

New schedule again, since March 29, 1999.
Every day but Tuesday and Saturday, 9:00 AM, ARTHUR C. CLARKE (don't know
which one)
Every day but Tuesday and Saturday, 9:30 AM, ARTHUR C. CLARKE
Weekdays, 10:00 AM, STRANGE BUT TRUE?
Every day but Tuesday and Saturday, 5:00 PM, ARTHUR C. CLARKE
Every day but Tuesday and Saturday, 5:30 PM, ARTHUR C. CLARKE
Weekdays,6:00 PM, STRANGE BUT TRUE?
Every day but Monday and Sunday, 1:00 AM, ARTHUR C. CLARKE
Every day but Monday and Sunday, 1:30 AM, ARTHUR C. CLARKE
Tuesdays through Saturdays, 2:00 AM, STRANGE BUT TRUE?
Wednesdays, Thursdays, Fridays, 9:00 AM and 9:30 AM, ARTHUR C. CLARKE'S
MYSTERIOUS UNIVERSE
Wednesdays, Thursdays, Fridays, 5:00 PM and 5:30 PM, ARTHUR C. CLARKE'S
MYSTERIOUS UNIVERSE
Saturdays, OUT OF THIS WORLD all day long

THE SCI-FI CHANNEL (US Feed)

Monday, August 9, 11:00 AM, SIGHTINGS: EPISODE #5062 (heartland ghost; UFOs
disable missiles; face on Mars; crop circles; musical therapy; Nostradamus)
Tuesday, August 10, 11:00 AM, SIGHTINGS: EPISODE #5063 (Illinois haunting;
Russian foo fighter; angels)
Wednesday, August 11, 11:00 AM, SIGHTINGS: EPISODE #5064 (psychic detective;
Angel of Death; Ouija; weird places; haunting; sasquatch)
Thursday, August 12, 11:00 AM, SIGHTINGS: EPISODE #5065 (UFOs; Edgar
Mitchell; website; mutated frogs; school haunting; lake monster)
Friday, August 13, 11:00 AM, SIGHTINGS: EPISODE #5066 (Ohio UFOs;
out-of-body-experiences; cybersouls; life on Io; nightclub haunting)
Tuesday, August 17, 11:00 AM, SIGHTINGS: EPISODE #5068 (Texas haunting; Nazi
UFOs; alien abductions; plant communication; Korean UFOs)
Wednesday, August 18, 11:00 AM, SIGHTINGS: EPISODE #5069 (psychic detective;
Atlantis; alchemy; haunting; ley lines; divination)
Thursday, August 19, 11:00 AM, SIGHTINGS: EPISODE #5070 (New York UFOs,
ghosts on film; psychics; earthquake predictions)
Friday, August 20, 11:00 AM, SIGHTINGS:EPISODE #3001 (poltergeists; UFOs;
psychic sculptor)
___________________________

This is Bufo saying, "If =everything= seemed normal, that =would= be weird!"
____________________________

You can stop receiving this from me just by asking (note: it is commonly
redistributed, and I can't control you getting it from those sources) by
e-mail at BufoCalvin@aol.com. You can also subscribe or unsubscribe to Bufo's
WEIRD WORLD Media Alert the same way. Also, please let me know if there is
something in the media you think I should cover. Deadline is Tuesday, the
week before.
_____________________________







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   Aug > Aug 9

                                  Re: IFOs

From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 9 Aug 1999 00:43:57 +0100
Fwd Date: Mon, 09 Aug 1999 15:08:31 -0400
Subject: Re: IFOs


 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
 >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >Subject: Re: IFOs
 >Date: Tue, 03 Aug 99 18:26:41 PDT

 >>Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 23:27:55 +0100
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
 >>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
 >>Subject: Re: IFOs

 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
 >>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >>>Subject: Re: IFOs
 >>>Date: Sat, 31 Jul 99 10:27:32 PDT

 >>>>Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 22:43:35 +0100
 >>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
 >>>>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
 >>>>Subject: Re: IFOs

 >Hi, John,

 >Are you sure you want to go through all this again?  Haven't
 >we been through this before?  It seems to me that we even
 >ended up the subject of a Fortean Times column awhile ago.
 >Why this compulsion to revisit the scene of the crime?

 >Oh, well....

 >>What's all this about "ridicule avoidance"? Do you seriously
 >>think that I and other sceptical ufologists (not just in
 >>Britain, by the way) have adopted our views just to placate some
 >>mysterious group of people who apparently have nothing better to
 >>do that go around jeering at a random collection of UFOs?

 >I think you've shown your hand when you resort to the sort
 >of transparent rhetorical device which leads you to conjure
 >up a "mysterious group of people who apparently have nothing
 >better to do that [sic]

Glad to see the old sub-editors [sic] back in action, though it
must get a bit overworked with rapidly typed internet postings.

 >go around jeering at a random collection
 >of UFOs"?  First, the second part of that sentence makes even
 >less sense than the first does, and second, the first part
 >transparently begs the question of the large role ridicule has
 >played in the UFO controversy over the decades.  As, of course,
 >you well know.  Disingenuity doesn't suit you, John.

Look, I'm not talking about establishment scientists and tenured
academics here - or indeed witnesses who have had no prior
connection with the subject, as well you very well know. I'm
talking about a group of people who write about, research and
investigate UFO reports in their spare time - they earn their
living as newspaper journalists, social workers, copywriters,
civil servants and, gulp!, librarians. Why should such low level
nobodies be concerned about the alleged ridicule of some sort of
scientific elite or hostile media. Curiously the ones who get
the most ridicule seem to be the ones who make the most money!

 >I stand by my point, and I am amused to see a psychosocial
 >theorist -- of all people -- disputing the effect of the
 >psychological and social fact of ridicule of ufologists and UFO
 >witnesses (not

 >"a random collection of UFOs," whatever that's supposed to
 >mean).

(correction already posted, I meant "ufologists")

 >>Then you don't read [Magonia] very well. We have never denied that
 >>there are anomalous UFOs. We just don't automatically jump to
 >>the conclusion that they are physical spacecraft.
 >
 >Stop being disingenuous, John.  Among other things, it's
 >boring.  If you are against conclusion-jumping, then we are
 >in full agreement.  Where we disagree, I suspect, that you're
 >only against jumping to those conclusions that you haven't
 >jumped to yourself.  Lively, entertaining, and literate though
 >it be, Magonia is no stranger to conclusion-jumping.  To the
 >contrary, it's as full of such movement as a poolful of frogs.
 >My word, last time around you were even defending, or sort of
 >defending, Peter Rogerson's hilarious conclusion-jumping
 >about the relationship of America's Hispanic population to
 >its alien-abduction experiences.

Oh, for God's sake, not this again. I really don't want to bore
everyone stiff. The debate is archived. Surely there must be
some more barmy old nonsense in Magonia that you could quote for
a change?

 >>>The rest of you are referred to the UFO literature.  For some
 >>>convincingly documented cases which have stubbornly withstood
 >>>the assaults of pelicanists, see The UFO Encyclopedia, 2nd Ed.,
 >>>on the Coyne CE2 (254-57), Portland County Sightings (719-27),
 >>>RB-47 case (761-90), or the Socorro CE2/CE3 (856-67).  To cite
 >>>just a very small number.

 >>Ah, ha! So finally you've listed your "best cases"! After about
 >>a year of asking.

 >I have repeatedly referred you to my UFO Encyclopedia and also
 >to the larger UFO literature.  Given  your position, I can understand
 >why you wouldn't want to read it.

I confess I probably haven't read the whole 1600 pages of the
three-volume edition and the 1500 pages of the second edition,
but throwing 3100 pages of an encycopaedia at me - however
excellent, and I refer to it constantly - is hardly a statement
of the dozen or so UFO cases most indicative of a physical
phenomenon. Now you've quoted four you find particularly
impressive. Thank you.

 >>>Amusingly, no less than the eminent
 >>>historian of astronomy Steven Dick recently stated (at a private
 >>>gathering of UFO historians held

 >>- in a telephone booth? -

 >Is that a joke?  Well, let me tell you the one about how many
 >psychosocial theorists it takes to change a lightbulb.....  Oh,
 >never mind.  It might create an international incident.

"How many psychosocial theorists does it take to change a
lightbulb?" "What evidence do you have that the bulb isn't
working?"

OK, not brilliant, but the best I could come up with at one
o'clock in the morning!

 >>>in Chicago late this past May)
 >>>that "evidence" in science is always a matter of dispute and
 >>>negotiation; he went on to say that ufologists' evidence is
 >>>entirely reasonable in that context (the history of scientific
 >>>disputation), and he said what we're doing is well worth doing.

 >>This strikes me as the sort of nice non-committal statement that
 >>a polite guest at a private gathering would say. I wonder just
 >>how much negotiation is possible about, say, the second law of
 >>thermodynamics? I fact, on re- reading it the statement seems to
 >>reflect a sort of post-modernist cultural relativism normally
 >>associated with French philosophers and, erm, English majors.

 >You weren't there, John, and it shows, I'm afraid.  But not knowing
 >something has never stopped a psychosocial theorist, in my
 >observation.

Perhaps you could post the text of his talk, or a summery, and
we'll have a clearer idea of just what he was saying. Whatever
it was, I'm sure it was not a straightforward endorsement of the
extraterrestrial hypothesis.

 >>>Asked why he believed in one controversial phenomenon, which
 >>>skeptics have charged is based solely on misidenti- fications
 >>>and hoaxes, a scientist of world-class reputation has stated the
 >>>following:

 >>>"Though ... I have never seen the phenomenon personally, I feel
 >>>that there is no question that [this phenomenon] exists. I have
 >>>talked to six eyewitnesses of the phenomena and think there is
 >>>no reasonable doubt as to the authenticity of their
 >>>observations.

 >>>"Furthermore, the reports are all remarkably
 >>>similar and have common features with the hundreds of
 >>>observations that appear in the literature."

 >>Yes, just like the hundreds of ghost stories, encounters with
 >>Satan, messages from spirits, memories of past lives, etc.,
 >>etc., etc. This is just the old "I can get it for you wholesale"
 >>school of research, where we are meant to be impressed by the
 >>sheer number reports.

 >And ball lightning -- which some psychosocial theorists have
 >even suggested explain otherwise unaccounted-for UFO reports.
 >I'm afraid you've just made my point for me. Scientists do think
 >like ufologists.

Avoiding the subject, Jerry. Are you saying that the "hundreds
of observations" are evidence for encounters with Satan,
messages from spirits, past lives, etc? Ball lightning is a
disputed phenomona, I agree, but it does not appear to operate
outside the overall bounds of science. As far as I know the main
advocate of ball-lightning as an explanation for UFO reports is
(or was until he got onto mirages) Steuart Campbell, who is one
of the last people I would describe as a psychosocial theorist.

 >>>What a dope.  Obviously, this true believer has never read The
 >>>UFO Handbook or Magonia,

 >>I'm puzzled. Are you comparing The UFO Handbook to Magonia, as
 >>two "pelicanist" publications, and suggesting that the Handbook
 >>dismisses UFO reports with "grand rhetorical gestures?

 >Any more of this disingenuous play-acting and I think I am going
 >to pass into a deep, deep slumber.  For the rest of you: remember,
 >it's John and his fellow pelicanists who are always citing The UFO
 >Handbook as some sort of definitive validation of their position.
 >It isn't, of course, but John can't seem to grasp that he was being
 >ribbed here.  If I didn't know you better, my friend, I'd wonder if
 >you have a sense of humor.

Oh dear, actually my little comment *was* meant as a joke. The
significance of Hendry's Handbook is that it represents a
sceptical viewpoint which developed as a result of actually
investigating cases. Many American ufologists (and quite a few
British ones as well, I hope no nationalistic bias here) seem to
think that "sceptics" are always people who have come to
ufologys from the outside with the purpose of ridiculing it. In
my experience most serious sceptics, certainly in Britain (burst
of God Save the Queen, Land of Hope and Glory, Jerusalem and
other jingoistic melodies) have reached their conclusions after
long and detailed study of the evidence; most probably started
as believers" and in some cases have come very reluctantly to
their sceptical positions. And I don't think "establishment
ridicule" had much to do with it.

--
John Rimmer, establishment lackey
Magonia Magazine
www.magonia.demon.co.uk






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   Aug > Aug 9

                      Re: C-E: Hubble Moon Photos Found

From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 8 Aug 1999 20:57:16 EDT
Fwd Date: Mon, 09 Aug 1999 15:10:00 -0400
Subject: Re: C-E: Hubble Moon Photos Found


 >From: Kutovoy, Anatoly <kutovoj@MAIL.IAE.LT>
 >Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 08:09:58 +0200
 >Fwd Date: Sun, 08 Aug 1999 12:08:22 -0400
 >Subject: C-E: Hubble Moon Photos Found


 >NASA Lied Again - Hubble Moon Photos Found

 >http://oposite.stsci.edu/pubinfo/pr/1999/14/pr-photos.html

 >The Space Telescope Science Institute (STSI) released pictures
 >of a celestial object that most people thought the Hubble
 >telescope was not allowed to view: our own Moon. - Sky and
 >Telescope Magazine. Many People have requested NASA to cause the
 >Hubble Space Telescope to be pointed towards the Moon and send
 >back high resolution pictures of any or all of the alleged
 >Apollo Lunar landing sites showing any equipment left behind
 >such as the LEM pads, or anything large enough to be spotted by
 >the HST at an average distance of perhaps 1.28 billion feet,
 >which is an average of about 15,400,000,000 inches distance from
 >Earth. NASA objected stating, "the Moon is too bright", commonly
 >followed-up by, "the Hubble can't focus on something that close"
 >[250,000 miles?]. We knew that this was a lie since the HST has
 >sufficient resolution to return exquisitely clear images of the
 >Lunar landscape. Positive evidence has turned up that indeed
 >NASA & Co. have been lying all along about this Moon is too
 >bright/too close balderdash. I'd just like to say... See?... I
 >told you so. - Bible Thumper

 >HEY NASA! Now that we know you CAN do it... how about taking
 >high resolution close up photos using the Hubble Telescope of
 >the following alleged Apollo landing locations on the Lunar
 >surface: Mare Tranquillitatis 0.67N - 23.49E, Oceanus
 >Procellarum 3.20S - 23.38W, Fra Mauro 3.67S - 17.47W, Hadley
 >Rille 26.10N - 3.65E, Descartes 8.99S - 15.51E, Taurus-Littrow
 >20.16N - 30.76E

 >What lie will NASA tell now?

They aren't lying about not being able to resolve lunar landing
sites with Hubble.  I suggest you read your own referenced
Website:

http://oposite.stsci.edu/pubinfo/pr/1999/14/pr-photos.html

Note the part near the bottom which reads:

(lower right) A close-up view of Copernicus' terraced walls.
Hubble can resolve features as small as 280 feet across.

280 feet is a bit larger than a LEM, much less a LEM pad, no?
Can Hubble do better than this?  Not according to basic optical
physics.  A mirror about 2 meters across imaging something
220,000 miles away in blue light (which would give maximum
resolution), can only barely resolve features about 280 feet
across.

Sorry, that's just the way it is.  No lies by NASA here.


David Rudiak






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   Aug > Aug 9

                           Re: Arnold Saw Pelicans

From: GT McCoy <gtmccoy@harborside.com>
Date: Sun, 8 Aug 1999 19:19:21 -0700
Fwd Date: Mon, 09 Aug 1999 15:23:16 -0400
Subject: Re: Arnold Saw Pelicans


 >From: Kathleen Anderson <KAnder6444@aol.com>
 >Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 19:23:31 EDT
 >Subject: Re: Arnold Saw Pelicans
 >To: updates@globalserve.net

Hello, All I'm as usual, going to comment on somthing that I
actually know-and hopefully not make a drooling fool of myself.

 >>From: Asgeir W. Skavhaug <asge-s@online.no>
 >>Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 18:42:04 +0200
 >>Fwd Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 16:17:30 -0400
 >>Subject: Re: Kenneth Arnold Sighting

 >Regarding your recent post:

and regarding these and several others.

 >>"Hi... yes, AWPs are found in Washington State - your state Fish
 >>and Wildlife people contacted us a few years ago. As about the
 >>movies of them in flight... good idea! we'll work at it, perhaps

 >I checked that website and also wrote myself. First of all, this
 >website clearly stated that AWP winter in northern California
 >and summer in Texas. You quoted sightings in San Francisco and
 >in Denver. San Francisco is about 1,000 miles/16 hours drive
 >from Seattle. Denver about the same to the East

According to Peterson's "A Field Guide To Western Birds", (I've
been an active to semi active birder since oh, 1970 b.b. -
before baldness-) AWP's run up into the Southern part of British
Coulmbia.

 >I don't think I know what country you are originating from so
 >cannot tell what your perception of distance and
 >geography/topography is. Can't compare San Francisco to Seattle
 >-- Seattle to Denver. Its like comparing England to Egypt. Lots
 >of variety in plants, people, climate, animals in between.

You want variety, (you'll appreciate this,Kathleen) drive I-90
from Seattle to Spokane. Or, I-84, Portland to Boise. Heck,
Vancouver to Castlegar, eh?

 >There is one major point all your pelican lovers are missing.
 >The perception of the mass of Mt. Rainier is very deceiving by
 >visual observation. Why do we have so many climbing accidents
 >every year here? Because of this reason. Its so clear and
 >prominent, rising from sea level to 14,410 feet in a matter of
 >60 miles, that is hard to actually understand its size and what
 >can be seen or not seen by the naked eye.

But if you using the mountain as a reference whether things that
fly past it are behind it or in front of it I refrain, ahem,
"draw a map".

 >OK so I was up there this weekend. Actually on Mt. Rainier --
 >not observing it from 35 miles as last week.

<snip>

 >Being that close, I shot some video of climbers on a trail. They
 >were 1/2 mile from me but on another ridge. You could not make
 >them out without the aid of my telephoto lens. They just blended
 >in the mass. What's a human in size? Average 5 to 6 feet? How do
 >they compare to a pelican? How could you see a pelican at
 >Arnold's distance when you cannot even distinguish a human who
 >is less than a mile away from you?

Kathleen, it depends on a lot but it boils down to this
contrast. I've been in smoke and couldn't see a very large, red
and white striped DC-somthing or-other, going in the opposite
direction - and at my Altitude - until it started to
uncomfortably fill my Cessna's windscreen. Then hunting on a
very clear, cold day, on Mt. Emily in Eastern Oregon, I could
easily see my red clad Father - even recognizing his distinctive
gait - at over 3/4 mile accross what was known as "windy
saddle".

 >These two weeks of exploration have made me think only of one
 >thing. If Arnold was off -- he is off on the size. What he saw
 >might have been much larger than he thought. But seeing
 >pelicans/geese/ducks/eagles/hawks above Mt. Rainier, I will
 >still take the stand of "no way".

I can't say that he was off on size, again -contrast.

 >Two points to ponder.

 >I just learned that there is actually a mountain (small) called
 >Mt. Baker which sits just below and part of the foothills (not
 >sure they are really hills) of Rainier. Then we have Mt. Baker
 >the volcano. The little Mt. Baker is about 4,000 feet. An
 >insignificant hill that has been hacked to death by the dear
 >Weyerhaeuser company and their big chain saws.

I am familar (sometimes, too familar) with the area around Mt.
Rainier. I don't think that this is the Mt. Baker of Arnold's
story.(by the by aren't Weyerhauser's grazing habits somthing to
behold- most of that has been shipped  unmilled- to Asia in the
past, will so again when the economy over there improves)

 >Secondly, I am putting together a video tape of last weeks view
 >and this weeks views of Mt. Rainier. Oh, I found an incredible
 >new road (well thank you again Weyerhaeuser for logging) that
 >has a great view of Rainier from about 15 miles due north.
 >Altitude was 6,300 feet. I am planning on sending this tape to
 >Bruce as he has tends to be more analytical than myself and in
 >hopes he will shed some light into the mystery.

Ok about AWP's, they are very decent flyers: they can soar,
cruise economically in, as would be called, a linear formation.
However I have never known them to cruise over the Cascades, the
flight pattern of the AWP is everso steady, not behaving like:
"the  tail of a kite". Also, late June is well out of migration
season, 1947 was not as nasty as 1948 in the Northwest. The AWP
likes open, large, bodies of water, and, I know I haven't seen
and will defy anyone to see Pelicans over the Cascades (the west
side, in particular) in a large formation. (Pleeze don't say
you have a picture of a solitary AWP on the boat dock at
Stihiken or Sammamish or Tieton (not grand) lakes-stragglers
exsist.)

A final note; I'm trying not to be belligerent ,I've seen the same area
time and again from nearly Arnold's perspective. Pelicans_not_

GT McCoy






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   Aug > Aug 9

                  Re: Richard Hall's final 'Reality Check'

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Sun, 8 Aug 1999 23:56:50 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 09 Aug 1999 15:25:51 -0400
Subject: Re: Richard Hall's final 'Reality Check'


 >Date: Thu, 05 Aug 1999 16:46:58 -0400
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
 >From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
 >Subject: Richard Hall's final 'Reality Check'


 >[I am forwarding this posting to the Project 1947 List with
 >permission from Richard Hall.]

 >Richard Hall has sent along his last column submitted to UFO
 >Magazine. He gave them the option of publishing it as a letter
 >to the editor. They did not publish it, but instead left the
 >readers with the impression that he was disappearing from their
 >pages for no specific reason.>

<snip>

--
 >Jan Aldrich
 >Project 1947
 >http://www.project1947.com/
 >P. O. Box 391, Canterbury, CT 06331, USA
 >Telephone: (860) 546-9135>


 >CALL ME A PURIST!

 >By Richard Hall


 >It has been my privilege to contribute a column ("The column
 >formerly known as Reality Check") to this magazine for several
 >years, and I am grateful to editor Vicki Cooper Ecker for this

Thanks for posting this commentary by Richard Hall.






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   Aug > Aug 9

                 CPR-Canada News: Hagersville and Roundway A

From: Paul Anderson - TMP / CPR-Canada <psa@direct.ca>
Date: Sun, 8 Aug 1999 23:36:55 -0800
Fwd Date: Mon, 09 Aug 1999 15:36:10 -0400
Subject: CPR-Canada News: Hagersville and Roundway A


CPR-Canada News
News and Updates from Circles Phenomenon Research Canada

http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Cavern/3310


Hagersville and Roundway Crop Circles: A Comparison

August 9, 1999

_____________________________


Just a quick thought on the recent new formations here in
Canada and the Roundway Hill "basket" formation in Wiltshire,
England, as examples.

The extraordinary formation at Roundway was, regrettably,
quickly cut down by the farmer before a ground survey
could be done (would love to have seen Mark's and Stuart's
field report on that one!!).

The formations at Hagersville, Ontario were also harvested
by the farmer soon after discovery (but are still there,
flattened well below the standing cut crop). The same kind
of hasty reaction to simply get rid of these things.

However...

The Native Indians, on whose reservation the (Hagersville)
circles appeared, have actually been holding ceremonies right
beside them specifically to *celebrate* their appearance; they
treat them with respect and even reverance. Maybe that is why
they were made where they were. An interesting comparison of
different reactions to the same phenomenon. Perhaps a lesson
is in order here?


Paul Anderson
Director
Circles Phenomenon Research Canada

_____________________________


See the Circle Phenomena in Canada Report Archive 1999
for updates on Canadian crop circle reports as additional
information becomes available:

(http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Cavern/3310/1999.html)

A reminder for all Canadian subscribers / readers - your
assistance is welcome and needed - ANY reports of other
possible circles this year, please do let us know as soon as
possible! See Reporting and Field Research Guidelines on
the web site for more information:

(http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Cavern/3310/reporting.html).

_____________________________


CPR-Canada News is the e-mail update service of
Circles Phenomenon Research Canada, and is published
periodically or as breaking news develops, with the
latest news and information and is available free by
subscription; to be added to or removed from the mailing
list, send your request, including "subscribe CPR-Canada
News" or "unsubscribe CPR-Canada News" and e-mail
address to:

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CPR-Canada welcomes your reports and submissions.
Forward all correspondence to:


CIRCLES PHENOMENON RESEARCH CANADA
Circles Phenomenon Research International

Main Office

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� Circles Phenomenon Research Canada, 1999








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   Aug > Aug 9

                        Re: Sheffield UFO Incident 2?

From: Josh Goldstein <clearlt@pacbell.net>
Date: Mon, 09 Aug 1999 02:03:01 -0700
Fwd Date: Mon, 09 Aug 1999 16:55:17 -0400
Subject: Re: Sheffield UFO Incident 2?


 >Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 18:21:11 -0400
 >From: Tony Spurrier <TSpurrier@compuserve.com>
 >Subject: Re: Sheffield UFO Incident 2?
 >To: "updates@globalserve.net" <updates@globalserve.net>

 >>From: Josh Goldstein <clearlt@pacbell.net>
 >>Date: Tue, 03 Aug 1999 03:21:40 -0700
 >>Fwd Date: Tue, 03 Aug 1999 14:12:39 -0400
 >>Subject: Re: Sheffield UFO Incident 2?

 >>Please describe your "astounding feats that are possible simply
 >>by talking directly to the subconsious."

 >Well, if you do a search on Dr. Angel Escudero you will find he
 >has carried out thousands of conventional surgical operations
 >without the use of anaesthetic, hypnosis, acupuncture etc.
 >Instead the patients literally just tell themselves their bodies
 >are anaethetised and they are then able to undergo the
 >operations in full waking consciousness.

 >So there's the example of 'astounding feats that are possible
 >simply by talking directly to the subconscious'.


Tony, I did a bit of a net search but found no sites. What
gives?

Josh






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                 Sighting, Morton Bay, Queensland Australia

From: Diane Harrison <tkbnetw@fan.net.au>
Date: Mon, 09 Aug 1999 22:55:09 +1000
Fwd Date: Mon, 09 Aug 1999 17:01:02 -0400
Subject: Sighting, Morton Bay, Queensland Australia


Hi everyone it would appear we are having a lot of sightings
this winter which is most unusual for this part of the year.
Around 10% have been identified, and the rest well we are still
working on right gang :>)

Cheers Diane
____________________________________________

Sighting Report OZ File

Report By Diane Harrison

Morton Bay Sighting, Queensland Australia

Date: 07.08.1999
Day: Saturday
Time: 10.10pm
Duration of sighting: 3 minutes
Observation: 15 degrees to the horizon due west
Location: Russell Island  "Boat Jetty" Morton Bay, Queensland
Aust
Sightees: Mrs B Griffin 59 years & Mrs M Griffin daughter
inlaw 39 years.

Report:

Mrs. Barbara Griffin said: "I was sitting with my daughter
inlaw fishing off the boat jetty at Russell Island , we had
been there for quite sometime from 7.30pm.  It was a
beautiful  night the sky was clear and there was no wind and
not to many fish biting either but all up a really nice
relaxing night  !until we saw this object!.

Q. Where did I first notice it.

I was casting my fishing line out into the water and was just
about to sit down when I noticed these very bright "brilliant"

red balls of lights 7 in all "coming towards us from the west
which is from the coast " Redland Bay township to be precise
with the location".

I watched them and I thought to myself my god what kind of a
plane is that.  I've never seen a plane like that before and
I've lived out here for many years and I know my planes and
this was no plane it was a triangle in shape with 7
brilliant  red pulsating lights.

  <= (Coast Redland Bay) <= (West to East) => Out to Sea

*
               *
*  *               *  < lights pulsating on & off
              *
*

This  object moved very slowly "nothing like a plane" so slow
and there was (no sound).

I then got my daughter inlaws attention !!Margie, Margie!!, I
had to say it twice because she was watching it too with her
mouth wide open to the floor.

"What do you think that thing is" she just stood there with
her mouth open.

Then "My god Barbs it's huge no! no! Babs it couldn't be?
could it? is it a bl-----dy UFO lets get out of here before it

comes this way".

I just sat there watching it while Margie started running
around collecting the fishing gear.
"I then shouted at Mags its okay its gone Mags where did it
go?.

We thought it might have gone behind the Island so we both
watched and waited to see if it would reappear at the other
end of the island  but "nothing appeared"

This thing passed behind Karangara Island out of sight going
out to sea and never re-appeared.


        *    ===> East
        **    *   Karangara  Island approx.  1.3klm long
        *       Morton Bay QLD
                #######################
~~~##############################~~~~
~~~~~~~~  ~~~~~~~  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~   ~~~~~~~~  ~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~  ~~~~~~~~~       ~~~~~~
~~~~~###############################~~~~~~~

               Russell Island Morton Bay Qld.

Margie then yelled "Babs that's really weird where did it go
something that big can't just vanish come on lets go.
So we packed up our fishing tackle and went home with a real
fishing tail to tell.

So that's when I thought of the UFO hotline I heard your
number on the Radio Station 4BC  on Sunday morning last
weekend.


Still under investigation

Regards Diane Harrison
Co. Director AUFORN
Australian Skywatch Director





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                         Re: Nick Pope's Weird World

From: Georgina Bruni <georgina@easynet.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 09 Aug 1999 17:43:54 +0100
Fwd Date: Mon, 09 Aug 1999 17:02:44 -0400
Subject: Re: Nick Pope's Weird World


 >From: Jenny Randles <nufon@currantbun.com>
 >To: <updates@globalserve.net>
 >Subject: Re: Nick Pope's Weird World
 >Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 21:50:26 +0100

 >Georgina and I have talked this out between us over the lasat 24
 >hours and have reached an understanding. I am happy with the
 >intent she has for her book as she has explained it to me and we
 >were both victims of something of a mutual misunderstanding
 >brought about by others. She has promised me her book will not
 >delve into politics and the silly tales doing the rounds about
 >me.

<snip>

Hi Jenny

Thanks for setting the record straight. I just want to add my
piece here as I know it wasn't meant to look like it - but it
tends to look as if we did some kind of deal... which of course
we didn't. As you now know - I never had any intention of
writing any gossip about you in the book - and that goes for
every other ufologist/researcher too. As I explained, the book
is not based on gossip but is about the case and the witnesses
and not about the lives of researchers, other than their
contribution to the case.

I would like to thank you also for setting the record straight
about your contribution to the case in those early days.  I
appreciate your generous reply. Will be in touch.

Sincerely,

Georgina Bruni





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                           Re: Arnold Saw Pelicans

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 9 Aug 1999 12:56:33 EDT
Fwd Date: Mon, 09 Aug 1999 17:04:37 -0400
Subject: Re: Arnold Saw Pelicans


 >Date: Sun, 08 Aug 1999 01:37:04 +0000
 >From: Dave Bowden <dave.bowden@cableinet.co.uk>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
 >Subject: Re: Arnold Saw Pelicans

 >>Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 11:12:11 -0400
 >>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Arnold Saw Pelicans
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>

 ><snip>

 >>A "less than once in a lifetime event." HAHAHAHA May I suggest
 >>you take Occam's Razor and shave off the pelicans (unless you
 >>can prove pelicans can fly faster than 100 mph at 9,200 ft
 >>altitude)

 >Oh God, how long's this Pelican thing going to go on for.

 >The guy was a qualified pilot, he saw something unusual, he
 >reported it. It obviously wasn't birds of any kind because a
 >qualified pilot would have recognised that.

 >Judging by this report maybe he should have kept his mouth shut,
 >the way so many pilots wished they had kept their mouths shut in
 >the years following.

 >I really don't see the logic of this debate.


That is precisely the point, Dave.  There is no logic to the
argument, eh!  Pelicans!  What a load of crap!  I'll bet you
dollars to law enforcement's donuts that there wasn't a pelican
in the sky that day.  It's merely another attempt to dispose the
entire story by hoaxing it.  I'll bet the farm that the person
who started this is an agent for the CIA or the NSA.  Maybe even
NASA!  Everyone knows that NASA has been deceiving the very
people who have been paying for their operations all these
years.  And we even immortalized the German rocket scientists
who got us started on this star trek by planting their kissers
on the Walt Disney Hour on Prime Time Sunday TV here in the good
ol' US of A, lo those many years ago in the 50's and 60's.

Horse Hockey!

No, my fellow fiends, they were not pelicans, not swamp gas, and
definitely not cumulating nimbal clouds.  What Arnold saw was
... you heard it here ... what Arnold saw was ... who the hell
knows what Arnold saw?

Which is the whole point.  The man was a pilot.  He saw
something anomalous.  He described the damned thing as best a
pilot could in those days.  And pilots in those days had to have
better awareness of their surroundings than pilots these days.

Either take his sighting as being UFO's in the truest sense of
the word or don't.  But for heaven's sake, not to mention my
liver, stop with the damned pelicans already.  Not merely
because the theory is one which will never be resolved and
therefore adding another dimension of complete silliness to this
dialog is much more than counterproductive, but because it is
such a silly one to embrace just by the sound of it.

I mean Swamp Gas is silly enough.  But for cripe's sake...
PELICANS?

May I suggest a quick, self inflicted whack with one a' them
Harry Carry thingies?






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                   Re: What's Wrong With British Ufology?

From: Rory Lushman <Oubliette@currantbun.com>
Date: Mon, 9 Aug 1999 19:00:57 +0100
Fwd Date: Mon, 09 Aug 1999 17:07:47 -0400
Subject: Re: What's Wrong With British Ufology?


 >Date: Sat, 07 Aug 1999 23:29:51 +0000
 >From: Dave Bowden <dave.bowden@cableinet.co.uk>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
 >Subject: Re: What's Wrong With British Ufology?


 >>From: Martin Phillips <mphillips@btinternet.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
 >>Subject: What's Wrong With British Ufology?
 >>Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 21:22:33 +0100

 >>Dear All,

 >>As a subscriber to this list, I'm stunned at the vitriol spewed
 >>forth by British ufologists about each other. Every day there's
 >>another dispute, every day there's another insult.

 >>I'd like to know what purpose all this serves - and don't you
 >>think that it undermines your credibility when the general level
 >>of debate is so low.

 >>I may be naive, but perhaps if you stopped insulting each other
 >>and listened for a minute, you may learn something.

 >>I hope this isn't taken as a troll message - take it as a plea
 >>for calm and reason.


 >Hi Martin,

 >I couldn't agree with you more,

 >I too get sick and tired of this name attacking that name for
 >whatever reason and at the end of the day it get's nowhere.

 >It would be nice if all ufologists pooled their resources but
 >let's face it, we're talking about humans here right! Its only
 >been a few thousand years since we dropped down from the tree's.

I think many miss the point. Whilst it seems its all out warfare
and a case of them us, this is so far from the truth.

If you are going to make wild announcements as regards UFO cases
and not back them up with any substantiated material, you
deserve to be challenged.

Whilst many reading this list probably have made up their own
minds which side of the debate they believe to the relevant case
they are reading, we are forgetting one thing.

The public. Should we let investigators put their
unsubstantiated cases to the public. Many members of the public
go to lectures/conferences to hear the latest in ufology. They
are probably not aware of the facts - or lack of facts - behind
the case.

Investigations should be of a high standard and I think we
should not allow anyone to talk "rubbish" if they cannot back up
their claims.

Everyone has a right to an opinion but if people think we should
sit back and let people talk about UFO's with no research being
done then they should not be in ufology.

UpDates is a forum for both sides of the debate. I know I will
certainly challenge anyone who preaches without facts. Of course
you have the right to challenge me and I'm not afraid of being
put on the spot...are you. I doubt there are many insults and
I'm sure Errol would not let them get through.

If wanting answers to questions makes you a broadcaster of
insults, then I think some people are very naive.

As can be seen on many messages, we are always classed as the
"usual suspects" because we don't accept everything that is put
to us. We would all like to get along in peace and harmony but
opposite sides will always have friction at the debating level.

I despair at what some researchers are allowed to get away with
when lecturing to the public at conferences. When you stand up
at a conference and speak to the public, whatever side of the
debate you are on, you should expect questions. Even if those
questions totally oppose your beliefs. If you can substantiate
them, what have you go to worry about.

Cheers






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                        Re: Mystery Bang in Scotland

From: David Clarke <crazydiamonds@compuserve.com>
Date: Mon, 9 Aug 1999 15:27:46 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 09 Aug 1999 17:09:29 -0400
Subject: Re: Mystery Bang in Scotland


The following item appeared in the Daily Telegraph
(London),  31 July 1999

"TOWN HIT BY MYSTERY TREMOR

"EMERGENCY services in Stornoway received a stream of calls
yesterday after buildings were shaken by a tremor.

"Coastguards in the Western Isles town said they even had a call
from a boat at sea after the crew felt severe vibrations. A
spokesman at the Royal Navy base at Faslane said there had not
been an earthquake and that the tremor must have been caused by
an explosion at sea, a supersonic aircraft or a missile.

"Glen Ford, a seismologist with the British Geological Survey in
Edinburgh, said: "We get about six of these mysteries a year."

Interesting to compare this with the mystery explosion and plane
crash which triggered a massive search of the Atlantic northwest
of Lewis in October 1996.

I predict that soon we shall be hearing more rumours of strange
objects retrieved from the sea in great secrecy by the
military...claims about top-level cover-ups and other hokum.

Either way, the RAF must be getting very careless with their
Tornadoes nowadays - this must be the second one they've lost to
the Flying Triangles in as many years.

Wonder where the pilot bailed out - as there's not many passing
minibuses to hitch rides on in the North Atlantic!





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              THE MOTHMAN PROPHECIES at The Prophets Conference

From: prophets@maui.net
Date: Sun, 08 Aug 1999 18:36:34 -1000
Fwd Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 09:21:45 -0400
Subject: THE MOTHMAN PROPHECIES at The Prophets Conference


The legendary ROBERT ANTON WILSON's latest book - "Everything is
Under Control: Conspiracies, Cults, and Cover-Ups" - tells us of
"The Mothman Prophecies," the research of another legend, JOHN
A. KEEL.  Both Wilson and Keel are joining the panel, "The UFO:
Anomaly, Reality, Implications," at THE PROPHETS CONFERENCE
being held in the picturesque Port Townsend, Washington, during
the weekend of AUGUST 27-29.  They will be joined on this
unprecedented panel by JOE FIRMAGE, DR. EDGAR MITCHELL, DR.
STEVEN GREER, and MARCIA SCHAFER.  Each of the panelists will
also present an individual workshop.

Other presenters at this exceptional gathering are Gregg Braden,
Ilona Selke, James Twyman, and Joan Ocean.

Full conference information is available at
http://www.greatmystery.org/prophets.html, or by calling
toll-free 1-888-777-5981
________________________________________________

The Mothman Prophecies
from "Everything is Under Control" by Robert Anton Wilson

In 1968, West Virginia, especially in the area bordering on
Ohio, became the scene of an outbreak of weirdity that
crisscrosses several categories of controversy. As documented in
John Keel's The Mothman Prophecies, the phenomena included:

� the first in the series of mysterious "cattle mutilations-
that have recurred regularly in many other states, usually
further west; � over 100 sightings of strange lights (or UFOs)
in the sky; � three classic "close encounter" cases, in which
people saw, or thought they saw, extraterrestrials, or critters
they considered extraterrestrial; � about 70 sightings of
Mothman, a traditional "monster' of the area who, like Bigfoot
and Nessie, keeps coming back to shock or terrorize a few
witnesses, but never lingers long enough to be scientifically
confirmed; and � a long parade of men in black, most of them
driving black Cadillacs and looking vaguely "Oriental." Mothman
is, or appears as, or is hallucinated as, a humanoid figure with
giant mothlike wings and glaring red eyes.

Another spook visiting the area called himself Indrid Cold and
said he came from a planet named Lanulos. He appeared twice to a
salesman named Woodrow Derenberger, with whom he seemed to
communicate by telepathy. Derenberger was thereafter vexed by
strange phone calls combining threats, electronic hums, and
code-like beeps. (See "Secret Cipher of the UFOnauts. ')

While trying to investigate this combination of real weirdity
(the cattle mutilations, the UFO sightings confirmed on radar)
and growing mob hysteria, Keel himself became the target of the
weirdness. A maelstrom of electronic and mechanical accidents
haunted him, and strange people contacted him by strange means
to prophesy future events. The major repeated prophecies were
(1) the Pope would be stabbed while visiting the Middle East,
(2) Robert Kennedy was in danger, and the threat waited for him
in a hotel kitchen, (3) there would be a nationwide power
failure on December 24 at noon.

The Pope was not stabbed in the Middle East; he was stabbed the
next year in Manila. Robert Kennedy was shot dead in a hotel
kitchen by Sirhan Sirhan and/or persons unknown. There was no
power failure on December 24 at noon, but at that exact hour a
bridge collapsed in West Virginia, right in the center of the
UFO/ Mothman activities, killing over 100 people.

Keel claims that most major UFO flaps have this penumbra of
magick and surrealism about them, usually ignored by both
skeptics and the ardent believers in the ETH (extraterrestrial
theory.) He prefers to call the entities involved
ultra-terrestrials, existing on the borderland between matter
and energy, or reality and dream, and regards them as
mischievous, deceptive, often dangerous, and likely to produce
mental illness in those who insistently try to communicate with
them.

Reference:
The Mothman Prophesies, by John Keel, IlumiNet Press, Avondale
Estates, Ga., 1991
_______________________________________

Robert Anton Wilson may be found at www.rawilson.com
_______________________________________

You may receive The Prophets Conference Brochure by calling
toll-free 1-888-777-5981 and leaving your name and address, or
by emailing axiom@greatmystery.org.

Thank you for forwarding this information to your friends and
member lists. Questions, unsubscribe, subscribe, inquiries,
comments, issues? Send email to Cody@greatmystery.org








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                                  Re: IFOs

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
Date: Mon, 09 Aug 99 19:09:45 PDT
Fwd Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 09:41:20 -0400
Subject: Re: IFOs


 >Date: Mon, 9 Aug 1999 00:43:57 +0100
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
 >From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
 >Subject: Re: IFOs

 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
 >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >>Subject: Re: IFOs
 >>Date: Tue, 03 Aug 99 18:26:41 PDT

 >>>Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 23:27:55 +0100
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
 >>>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
 >>>Subject: Re: IFOs

 >>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
 >>>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >>>>Subject: Re: IFOs
 >>>>Date: Sat, 31 Jul 99 10:27:32 PDT

 >>>>>Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 22:43:35 +0100
 >>>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
 >>>>>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
 >>>>>Subject: Re: IFOs


Hi, John,

 >>go around jeering at a random collection
 >>of UFOs"?  First, the second part of that sentence makes even
 >>less sense than the first does, and second, the first part
 >>transparently begs the question of the large role ridicule has
 >>played in the UFO controversy over the decades.  As, of course,
 >>you well know.  Disingenuity doesn't suit you, John.

 >Look, I'm not talking about establishment scientists and tenured
 >academics here - or indeed witnesses who have had no prior
 >connection with the subject, as well you very well know. I'm
 >talking about a group of people who write about, research and
 >investigate UFO reports in their spare time - they earn their
 >living as newspaper journalists, social workers, copywriters,
 >civil servants and, gulp!, librarians. Why should such low level
 >nobodies be concerned about the alleged ridicule of some sort of
 >scientific elite or hostile media. Curiously the ones who get
 >the most ridicule seem to be the ones who make the most money!

I think you're being disingenuous here, or at least that's a
charitable interpretation of what otherwise strikes me as an
extraordinary naivete which I would not ordinarily associate
with you.

No adult wants to be ridiculed.  The older we get, the more we
desire respectability, and that includes those of us who haven't
been able to shake our youthful fascination with UFOs.  I
suspect that a strong unconscious factor underlying efforts to
domestic UFOs (which the psychosocial approach is, if it's
anything) is to allow the ufologist to maintain his interest
while at the same time

being able to assure friends, neighbors, onlookers, and
potential print critics that "no, I don't think UFOs are about
anything heterodox; see, I'm just like you, and I'm not one of
those crazy people who actually think UFOs could be about
something radical."  As an outside observer, I have long had the
impression that ridicule avoidance is a skeleton rattling loudly
in the PSHer's closet.

I also understand that everybody except PSHers has unconscious
motivations, which Magonia is always happy to explain to us.
Maybe, though, you might be good to taste your own medicine once
in a while.  Perhaps one cure for pelicanism.

 >>>Then you don't read [Magonia] very well. We have never denied that
 >>>there are anomalous UFOs. We just don't automatically jump to
 >>>the conclusion that they are physical spacecraft.

 >>Stop being disingenuous, John.  Among other things, it's
 >>boring.  If you are against conclusion-jumping, then we are
 >>in full agreement.  Where we disagree, I suspect, that you're
 >>only against jumping to those conclusions that you haven't
 >>jumped to yourself.  Lively, entertaining, and literate though
 >>it be, Magonia is no stranger to conclusion-jumping.  To the
 >>contrary, it's as full of such movement as a poolful of frogs.
 >>My word, last time around you were even defending, or sort of
 >>defending, Peter Rogerson's hilarious conclusion-jumping
 >>about the relationship of America's Hispanic population to
 >>its alien-abduction experiences.

 >Oh, for God's sake, not this again. I really don't want to bore
 >everyone stiff. The debate is archived. Surely there must be
 >some more barmy old nonsense in Magonia that you could quote for
 >a change?

It's really odd that the editor of Magonia, of all people, would
object to conclusion-jumping.  Without conclusion-jumping,
would there be a Magonia?  I would be the last to say that
Magonia is not worth reading, but I think that any fair-minded
reader would come to the conclusion, fairly early on, that it
reads (as I've said more than once but have had no reason to
change my mind since) more like a journal of literary criticism
than a scientific publication.  That doesn't mean that every
conclusion you jump to is wrong (though I think many are); it
just means that you ought not to be pointing fingers at others
who take a more cautious, empirically based, less
theory-obsessed pproach.

 >>>>The rest of you are referred to the UFO literature.  For some
 >>>>convincingly documented cases which have stubbornly withstood
 >>>>the assaults of pelicanists, see The UFO Encyclopedia, 2nd Ed.,
 >>>>on the Coyne CE2 (254-57), Portland County Sightings (719-27),
 >>>>RB-47 case (761-90), or the Socorro CE2/CE3 (856-67).  To cite
 >>>>just a very small number.


 >>>>in Chicago late this past May)
 >>>>that "evidence" in science is always a matter of dispute and
 >>>>negotiation; he went on to say that ufologists' evidence is
 >>>>entirely reasonable in that context (the history of scientific
 >>>>disputation), and he said what we're doing is well worth doing.

 >>>This strikes me as the sort of nice non-committal statement that
 >>>a polite guest at a private gathering would say. I wonder just
 >>>how much negotiation is possible about, say, the second law of
 >>>thermodynamics? I fact, on re- reading it the statement seems to
 >>>reflect a sort of post-modernist cultural relativism normally
 >>>associated with French philosophers and, erm, English majors.

 >>You weren't there, John, and it shows, I'm afraid.  But not knowing
 >>something has never stopped a psychosocial theorist, in my
 >>observation.

 >Perhaps you could post the text of his talk, or a summery, and
 >we'll have a clearer idea of just what he was saying.

The proceedings of the meeting will be published later this
year.

 >Whatever
 >it was, I'm sure it was not a straightforward endorsement of the
 >extraterrestrial hypothesis.
  The discussion was not about the extraterrestrial,
psychosocial, or any other  hypothesis.  Nor, for that matter,
was the conference at which Steven Dick's remarks were offered.
As in his various published remarks on the UFO controversy (in
two books on the ET-life debate and on a 1992 paper on science
and the UFO controversy) he was discussing whether the UFO
phenomenon is potentially about something other than random
misperceptions and hoaxes, and about whether there is evidence
bearing on the question, and about whether the UFO

phenomenon is worth anybody's concentrated attention.  The tenor
of his remarks, as anybody who was there would agree, was not at
all like what one would read in, say, Magonia.  Dick was not
vaguely polite about but vocally supportive of serious,
disciplined UFO study, and he gets on famously with the likes of
scientific colleague Mike Swords, former JUFOS editor, who has
written eloquently, insightfully, and sympathetically on
science, ufology, and the ETH.

In my observation the persons most obsessed with the ETH are
persons like you.  Most of us are rather more concerned about
immediate, pragmatic issues such as investigation,
documentation, and history.

I certainly consider the ETH a reasonable reading of the most
puzzling UFO cases, but like most of my colleagues it's not
something that is anywhere close to being uppermost in my mind,
and I'm no dogmatist on the subject.  Moreover, I see no
purpose's being served in elevating it to ufology's foremost
issue, especially at this very early stage of an emerging
discipline (or so we hope).

At the Chicago conference, which comprised not just Americans
but French and Italian colleagues as well, the ETH just never
came up. You seem unable to imagine that over here, we can
discuss "UFO" without following it immediately with "spaceship."
My word.  We do it all the time.  You guys are so lost in a
thicket of theory that you've forgotten that there are ways out
of the woods.  If we can't discuss the UFO phenomenon without
disrupting every exchange with theory-based digressions, we
aren't going to be able to talk about it at all.

 >>>>Asked why he believed in one controversial phenomenon, which
 >>>>skeptics have charged is based solely on misidenti- fications
 >>>>and hoaxes, a scientist of world-class reputation has stated the
 >>>>following:

 >>>>"Though ... I have never seen the phenomenon personally, I feel
 >>>>that there is no question that [this phenomenon] exists. I have
 >>>>talked to six eyewitnesses of the phenomena and think there is
 >>>>no reasonable doubt as to the authenticity of their
 >>>>observations.

 >>>>"Furthermore, the reports are all remarkably
 >>>>similar and have common features with the hundreds of
 >>>>observations that appear in the literature."

 >>>Yes, just like the hundreds of ghost stories, encounters with
 >>>Satan, messages from spirits, memories of past lives, etc.,
 >>>etc., etc. This is just the old "I can get it for you wholesale"
 >>>school of research, where we are meant to be impressed by the
 >>>sheer number reports.

 >>And ball lightning -- which some psychosocial theorists have
 >>even suggested explain otherwise unaccounted-for UFO reports.
 >>I'm afraid you've just made my point for me. Scientists do think
 >>like ufologists.

 >Avoiding the subject, Jerry. Are you saying that the "hundreds
 >of observations" are evidence for encounters with Satan,
 >messages from spirits, past lives, etc? Ball lightning is a
 >disputed phenomona, I agree, but it does not appear to operate
 >outside the overall bounds of science. As far as I know the main
 >advocate of ball-lightning as an explanation for UFO reports is
 >(or was until he got onto mirages) Steuart Campbell, who is one
 >of the last people I would describe as a psychosocial theorist.

You completely missed the point the first time and do so the
second time, I notice.  Pelicanists routinely ridicule the
argument the patterns in the data, coupled with numerous
observations from reliable witnesses, comprise a case for the
reality of UFOs as extraordinary phenomena.  When I show how a
scientist draws comparable conclusions from ball-lightning
reports, all of a sudden we're hearing about "Satan, messages
from spirits, past lives, etc." (not even themselves related
questions, by the way). I appreciate your ability to make no
point at all, but really....

In fact, if you'd read the BL literature, you'd know that the
principal reason for the slowness of many scientists to accept
the phenomenon is that it _does_ seem "outside the overall
bounds of science."  BL causes scientific theorists no end of
difficulties. For example, a ball that lasts one minute or more
(as many are reported to do) requires an energy content so high
that science does not know how it could be formed. (There are,
of course, theories, none yet fully substantiated, all disputed
in one fashion or another.)

Here's another analogy to the UFO controversy. Physicist James
Dale Barry, another sympathetic chronicler of BL, has written in
his classic book on the subject, "The unbiased examination of
ball lightning reports leads one to conclude that a great
percentage of the reports are highly questionable and could be
interpreted in several ways." And yet he _still_ believes in the
reality of BL. Wow. He's beginning to sound more and more like a
ufologist and, worse, an American one.


 >The
 >significance of Hendry's Handbook is that it represents a
 >sceptical viewpoint which developed as a result of actually
 >investigating cases. Many American ufologists (and quite a few
 >British ones as well, I hope no nationalistic bias here) seem to
 >think that "sceptics" are always people who have come to
 >ufologys from the outside with the purpose of ridiculing it. In
 >my experience most serious sceptics, certainly in Britain (burst
 >of God Save the Queen, Land of Hope and Glory, Jerusalem and
 >other jingoistic melodies) have reached their conclusions after
 >long and detailed study of the evidence; most probably started
 >as believers" and in some cases have come very reluctantly to
 >their sceptical positions. And I don't think "establishment
 >ridicule" had much to do with it.

As I have said before, ridicule has always been a force in UFO
history, and it has affected ufologists, on both conscious and
unconscious levels.  It's a subject that needs to be discussed
far more often than it is.  Even in the pages of Magonia.

Amazingly, you seem to be arguing that Hendry was some sort of
pelicanist -- er, excuse me, "skeptic" -- when in fact, from
"actually investigating cases," he documented, or helped
document, some of the most puzzling and evidential in the
history of the phenomenon, including the Marshall County CE2,
the Cash-Landrum CE2, the Colusa CE1, the Gill CE3, and the
Ocala radar/visual.  I guess that puts him at odds with your
beloved domestic skeptics who -- unlike, say, Hendry (or, for
that matter, McDonald, Zeidman, Walt Webb, Weitzel, Hynek,
Bloecher, Sparks, Maccabee, Davis, and the other great
investigators on this side of the water) -- reached (as you
would have it) inevitably skeptical conclusions "after long and
detailed study of the evidence."

As one who himself has devoted "long and detailed study" to the
evidence, I find my skepticism of the skeptics (to borrow
Maccabee's felicitous phrase) grows ever more acute the more I
am exposed to them.






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                      Re: C-E: Hubble Moon Photos Found

From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 9 Aug 1999 23:46:15 EDT
Fwd Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 10:03:51 -0400
Subject: Re: C-E: Hubble Moon Photos Found


 >From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@aol.com>
 >Date: Sun, 8 Aug 1999 20:57:16 EDT
 >Fwd Date: Mon, 09 Aug 1999 15:10:00 -0400
 >Subject: Re: C-E: Hubble Moon Photos Found.

 >>From: Kutovoy, Anatoly <kutovoj@MAIL.IAE.LT>
 >>Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 08:09:58 +0200
 >>Fwd Date: Sun, 08 Aug 1999 12:08:22 -0400
 >>Subject: C-E: Hubble Moon Photos Found

<snip>

 >>What lie will NASA tell now?

 >They aren't lying about not being able to resolve lunar landing
 >sites with Hubble.  I suggest you read your own referenced
 >Website:

 ><http://oposite.stsci.edu/pubinfo/pr/1999/14/pr-photos.html>

 >Note the part near the bottom which reads:

 >(lower right) A close-up view of Copernicus' terraced walls.
 >Hubble can resolve features as small as 280 feet across.

 >280 feet is a bit larger than a LEM, much less a LEM pad, no?
 >Can Hubble do better than this?

Dear David, Anotoly and List:

At low Sun (eg., just before sunset or just after sunrise), is
it possible that any Apollo hardware left on the Moon might cast
a shadow 280 feet long?

Bob Young





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               Re: Research Proposal - Hypnotic Suggestibility

From: Bobbie Felder <jilain@plinet.com>
Date: Mon, 09 Aug 1999 23:40:26 -0600
Fwd Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 10:06:01 -0400
Subject: Re: Research Proposal - Hypnotic Suggestibility


 >From: Tim D. Brigham <TBrigham@ksinc.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
 >Subject: Research Proposal - Hypnotic Suggestibility
 >Date: Sat, 7 Aug 1999 23:39:00 -0500

 >Subject: Research Proposal - Hypnotic Suggestibility, Event
 >Related Brain Potentials, and Paranormal Experiences

<snip>

 >The focus has shifted to examine the theoretical "fantasy
 >prone personality," paranormal belief and experiences,

Why?

Bobbie



Bobbie Felder
Denver, CO

jilain@plinet.com
ICQ #7524076
IRC Undernet #Devils_Tower



                   ~~~Tell me not, in mournful numbers,
                        Life is but an empty dream!
                      For the soul is dead that slumbers,
                        And things are not what they seem.~~~








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                     Re: P-47: Re: The Problem of MUFON

From: Kathleen Andersen <KAnder6444@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 01:46:49 EDT
Fwd Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 10:11:46 -0400
Subject: Re: P-47: Re: The Problem of MUFON


 >Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 22:27:20 EDT
 >From: William E. Jones <Joneswufo@AOL.COM>
 >Subject: Re: The Problem of MUFON
 >To: PROJECT-1947@LISTSERV.AOL.COM >>

 >Having MUFON as the focus of an accessible
 >data base of UFO reports would put MUFON on the map.

and

 >From: Tony Rullan <TonyRullan@AOL.COM>

 >Group efforts from people with common interests and goals are more
 >conducive to results than group efforts from people whose only
 >commonality is that they live in the same state.

I agree with both your comments. Our membership is down in
Western Washington state but it has nothing to do with Walt
Andrus or the journal. It has to do with someone dedicating time
and "cheerleading" in attracting, selling and entertaining
bodies. Its a lot of work. And let's face it, when someone pays
any kind of fee they usually want to be "entertained" every
month with some multi media show. And if everyone recalls, Walt
has always said this is a grass roots organization. We lost the
talents of two very well respected people in our area due to
illness and we are still recovering.

Unforunately/fortunately the internet provides plenty of access
to entertainment, information, interaction and satisfaction for
UFO lovers. Not having to leave home and getting info sure does
compete. And besides I can pick and chose as to what topics I
want to participate in. Its easy. I can sit in my pajamas, not
fight traffic and keep my great view of Puget Sound and still
enjoy my UFO research.

I personally do pay my dues every year because I like getting
the Journal. I might not like every article in it, but I sure
wouldn't want to miss anything. And take a look at Northern and
Southern California chapters. They are doing very well with
membership. Actually Eastern Washington thanks to Jerry Rowles
has doubled the size of his group over the last year.

Our members here didn't leave because of lack of information,
they left for lack of entertainment. We are working on getting
the show back on the road but like anything else it takes an
investment and dedication of people. And I agree, most here want
to know what was going on in our own backyard.

And Herb..... its easy to find problems in any organization.
Rules of business: Progress is made when someone takes a
problem  and offers a solution.

Kathleen Andersen
State Section Director - Seattle
MUFON





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                           Re: Arnold Saw Pelicans

From: Dave Bowden <dave.bowden@cableinet.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 14:52:06 +0000
Fwd Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 10:14:59 -0400
Subject: Re: Arnold Saw Pelicans


 >From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >Date: Mon, 9 Aug 1999 12:56:33 EDT
 >Subject: Re: Arnold Saw Pelicans
 >To: updates@globalserve.net

 >>Date: Sun, 08 Aug 1999 01:37:04 +0000
 >>From: Dave Bowden <dave.bowden@cableinet.co.uk>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Arnold Saw Pelicans

 >>>Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 11:12:11 -0400
 >>>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >>>Subject: Re: Arnold Saw Pelicans
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>

 >><snip>

 >>>A "less than once in a lifetime event." HAHAHAHA May I suggest
 >>>you take Occam's Razor and shave off the pelicans (unless you
 >>>can prove pelicans can fly faster than 100 mph at 9,200 ft
 >>>altitude)

 >>Oh God, how long's this Pelican thing going to go on for.

 >>The guy was a qualified pilot, he saw something unusual, he
 >>reported it. It obviously wasn't birds of any kind because a
 >>qualified pilot would have recognised that.

 >>Judging by this report maybe he should have kept his mouth shut,
 >>the way so many pilots wished they had kept their mouths shut in
 >>the years following.

 >>I really don't see the logic of this debate.

 >That is precisely the point, Dave.  There is no logic to the
 >argument, eh!  Pelicans!  What a load of crap!  I'll bet you
 >dollars to law enforcement's donuts that there wasn't a pelican
 >in the sky that day.  It's merely another attempt to dispose the
 >entire story by hoaxing it.  I'll bet the farm that the person
 >who started this is an agent for the CIA or the NSA.  Maybe even
 >NASA!  Everyone knows that NASA has been deceiving the very
 >people who have been paying for their operations all these
 >years.  And we even immortalized the German rocket scientists
 >who got us started on this star trek by planting their kissers
 >on the Walt Disney Hour on Prime Time Sunday TV here in the good
 >ol' US of A, lo those many years ago in the 50's and 60's.

 >Horse Hockey!

Well Jim, you and your Gripple certainly put it a lot better
than I could.

 >No, my fellow fiends, they were not pelicans, not swamp gas, and
 >definitely not cumulating nimbal clouds.  What Arnold saw was
 >... you heard it here ... what Arnold saw was ... who the hell
 >knows what Arnold saw?

Perhaps he saw silver painted air-borne crash test dummies, that
would tie in nicely with the stupid (what! was I born yesterday)
explanation the US airforce gave for Roswell.

 >Which is the whole point.  The man was a pilot.  He saw
 >something anomalous.  He described the damned thing as best a
 >pilot could in those days.  And pilots in those days had to have
 >better awareness of their surroundings than pilots these days.

 >Either take his sighting as being UFO's in the truest sense of
 >the word or don't.  But for heaven's sake, not to mention my
 >liver, stop with the damned pelicans already.  Not merely
 >because the theory is one which will never be resolved and
 >therefore adding another dimension of complete silliness to this
 >dialog is much more than counterproductive, but because it is
 >such a silly one to embrace just by the sound of it.

 >I mean Swamp Gas is silly enough.  But for cripe's sake...
 >PELICANS?

When I read about the Pelican theory I had to check the calendar
to make sure it wasn't April the first.

 >May I suggest a quick, self inflicted whack with one a' them
 >Harry Carry thingies?

Well I do know that using alien technology certain people have
created a breed of masochistic cows that produce cream which
will actually whip itself.

Dave.





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                What's On Brisbane Qld Australia Aug 28 1999

From: Keith Basterfield Network <tkbnetw@fan.net.au>
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 23:48:17 +1000
Fwd Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 10:19:00 -0400
Subject: What's On Brisbane Qld Australia Aug 28 1999


"WHAT'S ON"  QUEENSLAND 28th 8 1999
http://www.fan.net.au/~tkbnetw/new/what'son.htm
________________________________________

The Keith Basterfield Network & The Australian UFO Research
Network helping to promote Australian UFology

Report a UFO Free call Hotline1800 77 22 88

The Australian UFO Research Network is a non-profit
organisation all money raised will be donated to the running  of
the UFO Hotline serving all the Australian UFO community.

________________________________________


PRESENTING

Saturday  August 28th 1999

MR. REX GILROY
Author of
MYSTERIOUS AUSTRALIA

6.30pm start doors open 6.00pm

If you have ever wondered who really discovered Australia
Whether UFOs visited this  ancient land in ages past and still
are.

Whether the fabled Yowie, the extinct Tasmanian tiger. The
mysterious marsupials, panther and giant other  monoliths
scattered through the landscape. Where Homo sapiens actually
originated, then your   in for a big surprise.

For Australia is a land of unsurpassed mysteries beyond  even
our wildest dreams and imagining.

Come and listen to Rex and be surprised and what intriguing
evidence he has found over the past 30 years.

Be early for the early bird $20.oo or  $30.oo at the door
A discount on group bookings.
A light supper Tea & Coffee included.

Pay by Bankcard, MasterCard, Visa, all Cash or Cheques

Post to "Australia only"
PO Box 805
Springwood Queensland 4127

For More details call Diane or Robert on

Tel 07 38088567 or 07 55477933 in Australia only
or E-mail tkbnetw@fan.net.au

So be Early :>) and don't miss out "limited seating".

Venue Springwood Community Centre
Corner of Cinderella Drive & Vanessa BLVD Springwood Queensland

Regards Diane Harrison

Co Director of The Australian UFO Research Network
Found of  The Keith Basterfield Network Australasia
Australian Skywatch Director

E-Mail  tkbnetw@fan.net.au
http://www.fan.net.au/~tkbnetw/new

UFO Australian  Research Network Hot Line Number
1800 77 22 88 Free Call





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                      Re: C-E: Hubble Moon Photos Found

From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 11:02:06 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 22:18:55 -0400
Subject: Re: C-E: Hubble Moon Photos Found


 >From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >Date: Mon, 9 Aug 1999 23:46:15 EDT
 >Subject: Re: C-E: Hubble Moon Photos Found
 >To: updates@globalserve.net

 >Dear David, Anotoly and List:

 >At low Sun (eg., just before sunset or just after sunrise), is
 >it possible that any Apollo hardware left on the Moon might cast
 >a shadow 280 feet long?

 >Bob Young

As would every other formation that rises above the surface.
The problem would be trying to identify the shadow that was
caused by the remains of the Apollo lander and other hardware
that was left on the surface.  This would probably be very
tricky, but perhaps possible (depending on the resolution of the
image).

Steve





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                      Re: C-E: Hubble Moon Photos Found

From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 11:11:17 EDT
Fwd Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 22:21:49 -0400
Subject: Re: C-E: Hubble Moon Photos Found


 >From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >Date: Mon, 9 Aug 1999 23:46:15 EDT
 >Fwd Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 10:03:51 -0400
 >Subject: Re: C-E: Hubble Moon Photos Found

 >Dear David, Anotoly and List:

 >At low Sun (eg., just before sunset or just after sunrise), is
 >it possible that any Apollo hardware left on the Moon might cast
 >a shadow 280 feet long?

I suppose.  But there would be no way of distinguishing it from
any other shadow, say from a large boulder.  What would be
needed is sufficient resolution to see actual features on a LEM.
That would require a near-orbiting space telescope a 100 times
bigger than Hubble.

In any case, there would be no way of settling this dispute with
photos.  If NASA really did fake the moon landings, it would be
child's play for them to digitally doctor photos of the landing
sites to make it look like LEMs were really there.






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               Research Release: 'USAAF' UFO Research Pre-1947

From: Wendy Connors <ProjectSign@email.msn.com>
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 11:07:33 -0600
Fwd Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 22:42:18 -0400
Subject: Research Release: 'USAAF' UFO Research Pre-1947


Research Release:

On a recent research trip to Dayton, Ohio, Wendy Connors and
Mike Hall recovered some new information that directly impacts
the historical record of Ufology. This information comes from a
very knowledgable and inside source to the inner workings of
Project's SIGN, Grudge and Blue Book. This source desires to
remain unnamed at this point in time and both Mike and I will
certainly honor his desires. No discussion as to who the source
might be will be entertained by us. This source did, however,
work directly with the people comprising SIGN, Grudge and Blue
Book for many years and was not only friends, but part of a good
old boy's network within T-2.

The following information is shared with all of our fellow
researchers:

Prior to 1947, in the fall and winter months of 1946, not only
was the Navy deeply investigating the Ghost Rocket phenomena in
the Baltic, but many sightings of disc-like craft were being
reported by military pilots at this same time. Some sightings
were in the Pacific areas as well as over the United States.
Many of these cases are still unknown to the ufological
community.

In late 1946, Colonel Howard McCoy, Colonel Miles Goll and two
other officers within T-2 Intelligence set up a Top Secret
office away from T-2 proper to begin looking into the flying
discs being reported. At this time such an investigation was
beyond the scope of T-2 and no authorization had been given for
such an investigation. Although the office was used as a base of
operations for analysis of these military sightings, it was not
official, nor had Air Force Intelligence (A2 or AFOIN) sanction
to do so.

By the time of the Kenneth Arnold and other early 1947 cases, A2
decided to begin investigation of the flying discs. Word was
passed down through Gen. Carl T. Spaatz that AFOIN should begin
looking into the situation. Word had leaked out to Gen. George
McDonald that several officers at T-2 had already begun looking
into some of the reports. In order to prevent the upper
eschelons from learning that this unofficial investigation had
already begun over seven months earlier, and time and money had
been used, a paper trail was needed to cover the fact that this
unauthorized investigation had begun without approval. This was
accomplished quickly by T-2 sending requests to AFOIN (A2) for
all prior reports of disc sightings by the military as well as
the Ghost Rocket investigations that had been in progress for
almost a year.

In order to further cover and make the previous unauthorized
investigations legitimate, Gen. Nathan Twining complied with an
emergency request from Gen. McDonald, through Gen. Schulgen that
an opinion be written regarding the flying discs. This was
unique, because at the time of the Twining Memo, T-2 was not
answerable to AMC. T-2 was solely stationed at Wright Field due
to the fact that much of the support elements T-2 needed were
all ready in place at Dayton. After June 14, 1947, T-2 was only
an administrative area for AMC. The officers comprising T-2
answered only to A2 (AFOIN) and not through the chain of command
at AMC. The Twining memo was definitely for real, but it was
produced under different circumstances than was previously
believed.

Capt. Edward J. Ruppelt, in his book, "The Report on
Unidentified Flying Objects" had stated that although the
investigations of flying discs had begun by August 1947, it was
not an official investigation. This new information validates
Ruppelt, but Ruppelt was not privy to the fact that the flying
disc investigations began almost 10 months earlier. There has
always been a question about Ruppelt's acumen regarding the
beginning point of the flying disc investigation and now it
seems imperative that Ruppelt's work be more closely examined
and analyized. Fran Ridge is already hard at work regarding this
aspect.

This new information has caused much excitement between Mike and
myself. We have enough documentation gathered to show that this
new information is valid and will be shared in its entirety in
the coming months. However, our research is still on-going and
other important elements regarding the early investigations and
people involved have been recovered and continuing to be
recovered. This information will also be passed on to the list
members at the appropriate time. We are still evaluating all the
new information.

One further note to share with interested list members. Our
source was an extremely close friend and associate with Col.
Harold Watson. He confirms that Col. Watson was still heading
ATIC during October, 1951 and Col. Dunn was working closely with
Col. Watson.

Both Mike and I hope this new information will be of benefit to
our fellow researchers.

Wendy Connors and Michael Hall
Project SIGN and Project Blue Book Research Centers
www.projectsign.com











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                      Re: C-E: Hubble Moon Photos Found

From: Brian Straight <brians@mdbs.com>
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 10:33:20 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 22:30:05 -0400
Subject: Re: C-E: Hubble Moon Photos Found


 >>>From: Kutovoy, Anatoly <kutovoj@MAIL.IAE.LT>
 >>>Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 08:09:58 +0200
 >>>Fwd Date: Sun, 08 Aug 1999 12:08:22 -0400
 >>>Subject: C-E: Hubble Moon Photos Found

 ><snip>

 >>>What lie will NASA tell now?


Anatoly is trying to bolster the frankly ridiculous view that
the US never did manage to put a man on the moon and that lunar
landing video and pix were courtesy some Hollywood soundstage.

I'm a Purdue Ph.D (which should allow Dr. Gesundt to reply to me
directly, should the occasion arise), and many of the guys who
walked on the moon were Purdue grads.  I've met a number of
them, and if they are part of some vast conspiracy to mislead
the world, then I guess I'd give 'em all Oscars, because they
sure fool me.  A more genuine, down-to-earth (paradoxically!)
bunch of guys you couldn't meet.

In addition, I remember observing several TLI burns through
binoculars-- we sure as hell sent something pretty big out of
earth orbit! In addition, I was also indirectly involved with
the laser 'moonbounces,' in which a laser beam from earth was
bounced off reflectors Neil Armstrong and Buzz Aldrin deployed
during the Apollo 11 mission. The bounces flashed back clear and
intense, and were easily visible in the primitive video hooked
up to a 25 inch telescope. Someone set up those reflectors in
the Sea of Tranquility, and did a damn fine job.

Those who would argue that the moon landings never took place
should study the real evidence--not the nonsense promulgated by
the conspiracy web sites.

Brian





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                     Demand the truth and get it not...

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 13:11:26 EDT
Fwd Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 08:02:27 -0400
Subject: Demand the truth and get it not...


Demand the truth and get it not... or Aks and you shall get naught
but decieved.


Well, this is _not_ funny, folks.  Not funny at all.  Think
about this if you will.  Some people think UFOs are something
earthly but offer no proof of this except theory.  Which is
fine.  But these self same people believers trumpet their
position by accusing the believers of not having proof.  Whoops!
'S'up here?

And then there are the believers.  They claim they _have_ the
proof, and they are the proof.  After all, their minds,
intellects, not to mention their wounds in some cases, are proof
sufficient! These believers have the proof and preclude any and
all objections by using this argument.  Whoops!  'S'up here?

Uh, "S'up" is a subjective plus perfect conjugation of the
phrase, "What's up?" in the Urban jungles of the United States
of A.  We tend to talk funny here. Where was I?  Oh, yeah....
uh:

So there you have the believers and the unbelievers and their
respective positions.  Mainly prone.  Next come the skeptics.
Now _heres_ a group of rather dim bulbs if I ever saw one.  "I'm
skeptical!" they shout in loud voices.  And the only proof of
skepticism these folks offer is that there is no proof from
either side.  Whoops!  'S'up here?

Then there are those who write books, speak speeches and portray
themselves as ex-spurts in the science of Ufology.  And the
check is in the mail.  Then there are the do gooders.  Hear them
proclaim just how important it is to give unto those who have
been abducted, sucked of their juices and otherwise probed and
disrobed, etc.  I admit to siding with these, as I recall (at
least in the memory) of having been done unto in these various
vicarious manners....

I could, of course, go on, and on.  But yet again I aks, "What's
the point?"  Good question.  The point is that no one got the
Motts. No one!  And wouldn't it be really neat if we could all
forget about the next speaking speech, the next booking booked,
the next book published, etc. and get together and compare
notes?  Huh?

Yup.  Sure would.  But that is a rather naive thing to expect.
The ravings of some Grippled lunatic who needs the truth but
neither sees nor hears it from anyone.  I have that need.  I
need to know what the hell happened to me and why it happened. I
understand that there are drugs extant which elicit the truth
from someone who has it to express.  Hypnosis, when properly
applied, can be used as a tool to extract truth.  But the
debunkers and spitters of bile and puffed up ego would have us
believe otherwise.

Perhaps we should seek the assistance of the NSA and their band
of merry men (and women) and aks them if they could lend a hand
and supply some of Jack's special sauce with which to garner
truth.  Huh?

Perhaps we could aks the secret government if they would lend us
a few of their sopwith camels in an effort to explore the space
around and just outside of our atmosphere to tell what's out
there. Probably nuttin' honeys'.  Nuttin but ice crystals and
space debris.

Maybe we could aks NASA what their people have seen in space.
Nah!  They aint seen nuttin needer.  Hey, I got me an idea!
What about asking (sorry, I am beginning to sober up) the
Pressley family what they know about God, the Universe and
Everything.

Well, I guess I've had enough of myself.  I've presented no
answers, only questions. I have delivered no honest suggestions,
merely created more confusion, have I not?  I've detracted from
the sum total of human knowledge in this post. Have I not?

Which means I am about par with the rest of you ex spurts.

I rest my cases.

Gesundt





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               Re: Research Proposal - Hypnotic Suggestibility

From: Joel Henry <jhenry@visi.com>
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 12:11:46 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 08:04:50 -0400
Subject: Re: Research Proposal - Hypnotic Suggestibility


 >Date: Mon, 09 Aug 1999 23:40:26 -0600
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
 >From: Bobbie Felder <jilain@plinet.com>
 >Subject: Re: Research Proposal - Hypnotic Suggestibility

 >>From: Tim D. Brigham <TBrigham@ksinc.net>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
 >>Subject: Research Proposal - Hypnotic Suggestibility
 >>Date: Sat, 7 Aug 1999 23:39:00 -0500

 >>Subject: Research Proposal - Hypnotic Suggestibility, Event
 >>Related Brain Potentials, and Paranormal Experiences

 ><snip>

 >>The focus has shifted to examine the theoretical "fantasy
 >>prone personality," paranormal belief and experiences,

 >Why?


The problem here is the ASSumption that all abductees are
fantasy prone individuals who are also firmly entrenched in
certain paranormal, etc. belief systems. This is simpy not
true and very few poeple actually check to see if the
abductee has already been checked out for these features.
This is part of the psychological screening process which
needs to be done even before the hypnotic regression occurs
and is the deciding element if the regression should even
bother to be done.

Each regression case should be qualified as to accuracy,
usefullness, and competence by checking on whether and to
what extent the abductee in question has been checked out
beforehand and by whom.

Throwing around generalisations about hypnotism and bad
mouthing the hypnotists without first knowing the processes
that were used and checking for mistakes, etc. by reviewing
tapes of the regressions is a serious act of prejudice.
We don't need knee-jerk criticism of things based on no
solid facts.

If, after careful examination of the regression, regressor,
methods used, and prescreening process, the case appears to be
poorly handled, then it can be labelled as such and set aside
as non-useable in further study and investigation. I don't see
this being done by ANY naysayers.

Joel Henry

Minnesota MUFON


-------------------------------------------------------------------
Minnesota MUFON Field Investigator, Minnesota MUFON Journal Editor,
Minnesota MUFON Webmaster
Minnesota MUFON Web Page: http://www.visi.com/~jhenry/index.html






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                   Re: What's Wrong With British Ufology?

From: Martin Phillips <mphillips@btinternet.com>
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 22:18:02 +0100
Fwd Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 08:08:58 -0400
Subject: Re: What's Wrong With British Ufology?


 >From: Rory Lushman <Oubliette@currantbun.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
 >Subject: Re: What's Wrong With British Ufology?
 >Date: Mon, 9 Aug 1999 19:00:57 +0100

 >>Date: Sat, 07 Aug 1999 23:29:51 +0000
 >>From: Dave Bowden <dave.bowden@cableinet.co.uk>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
 >>Subject: Re: What's Wrong With British Ufology?

 >>>From: Martin Phillips <mphillips@btinternet.com>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
 >>>Subject: What's Wrong With British Ufology?
 >>>Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 21:22:33 +0100

 >>>Dear All,

 >>>As a subscriber to this list, I'm stunned at the vitriol spewed
 >>>forth by British ufologists about each other. Every day there's
 >>>another dispute, every day there's another insult.

 >>>I'd like to know what purpose all this serves - and don't you
 >>>think that it undermines your credibility when the general level
 >>>of debate is so low.

 >>>I may be naive, but perhaps if you stopped insulting each other
 >>>and listened for a minute, you may learn something.

 >>>I hope this isn't taken as a troll message - take it as a plea
 >>>for calm and reason.

 >>Hi Martin,

 >>I couldn't agree with you more,

 >>I too get sick and tired of this name attacking that name for
 >>whatever reason and at the end of the day it get's nowhere.
 >
 >>It would be nice if all ufologists pooled their resources but
 >>let's face it, we're talking about humans here right! Its only
 >>been a few thousand years since we dropped down from the tree's.


 >I think many miss the point. Whilst it seems its all out warfare
 >and a case of them us, this is so far from the truth.

 >If you are going to make wild announcements as regards UFO cases
 >and not back them up with any substantiated material, you
 >deserve to be challenged.

 >Whilst many reading this list probably have made up their own
 >minds which side of the debate they believe to the relevant case
 >they are reading, we are forgetting one thing.

 >The public. Should we let investigators put their
 >unsubstantiated cases to the public. Many members of the public
 >go to lectures/conferences to hear the latest in ufology. They
 >are probably not aware of the facts - or lack of facts - behind
 >the case.

 >Investigations should be of a high standard and I think we
 >should not allow anyone to talk "rubbish" if they cannot back up
 >their claims.

 >Everyone has a right to an opinion but if people think we should
 >sit back and let people talk about UFO's with no research being
 >done then they should not be in ufology.

 >UpDates is a forum for both sides of the debate. I know I will
 >certainly challenge anyone who preaches without facts. Of course
 >you have the right to challenge me and I'm not afraid of being
 >put on the spot...are you. I doubt there are many insults and
 >I'm sure Errol would not let them get through.

 >If wanting answers to questions makes you a broadcaster of
 >insults, then I think some people are very naive.

 >As can be seen on many messages, we are always classed as the
 >"usual suspects" because we don't accept everything that is put
 >to us. We would all like to get along in peace and harmony but
 >opposite sides will always have friction at the debating level.

 >I despair at what some researchers are allowed to get away with
 >when lecturing to the public at conferences. When you stand up
 >at a conference and speak to the public, whatever side of the
 >debate you are on, you should expect questions. Even if those
 >questions totally oppose your beliefs. If you can substantiate
 >them, what have you go to worry about.


Dear All,

I posted the original question, and so I think I ought to answer
the points raised.

I was not being naive, I hope, in thinking that debates can be
had about subjects without personal comments being made. I'd
cite the recent spats over the Sheffield Incident as an example.
I think most rational people would agree that the proponents of
this 'incident' are struggling to create a story without the
facts to back it up (I suppose that will mean he starts up
again!). But the tone of the debate degenerated rapidly into
exchanges that would do little credit to five-year-olds in a
playground.

Similarly, the British community last year saw an opponent
of the ETH being accused of being a neo-nazi, an Israeli agent
and an agent provocateur for British Intelligence, all at the
same time (two out of three, maybe...) Whether he's right or
wrong in his theories, you wonder about an opponent whose
first response is to start name-calling.

The plain fact is, there are virtually no facts in this field
that are indisputable (by definition, as there are so many
arguments). So, debate is going to happen, and opinions are
going to be expressed. I've no problem with that. I do object to
name-calling, and i object loudly to self-appointed arbiters of
what is fit or unfit to be presented to the public. Give them
all the facts, and let them decide. So to say...

 >Investigations should be of a high standard and I think we
 >should not allow anyone to talk "rubbish" if they cannot back up
 >their claims.

means you think you know best what's good for the public. Thank
you, but I'd rather decide for myself, after hearing all sides
of the debate. The above comment calls for censorship, the very
thing that most people interested in UFOs complain that our
political leaders do.

Martin Phillips





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                      Re: C-E: Hubble Moon Photos Found

From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@connectmmic.net>
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 19:35:32 -0700
Fwd Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 08:10:58 -0400
Subject: Re: C-E: Hubble Moon Photos Found


 >From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >Date: Mon, 9 Aug 1999 23:46:15 EDT
 >Subject: Re: C-E: Hubble Moon Photos Found
 >To: updates@globalserve.net

 >>From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@aol.com>
 >>Date: Sun, 8 Aug 1999 20:57:16 EDT
 >>Fwd Date: Mon, 09 Aug 1999 15:10:00 -0400
 >>Subject: Re: C-E: Hubble Moon Photos Found.

 >>>From: Kutovoy, Anatoly <kutovoj@MAIL.IAE.LT>
 >>>Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 08:09:58 +0200
 >>>Fwd Date: Sun, 08 Aug 1999 12:08:22 -0400
 >>>Subject: C-E: Hubble Moon Photos Found

<snip>

 >>280 feet is a bit larger than a LEM, much less a LEM pad, no?
 >>Can Hubble do better than this?

 >Dear David, Anotoly and List:

 >At low Sun (eg., just before sunset or just after sunrise), is
 >it possible that any Apollo hardware left on the Moon might cast
 >a shadow 280 feet long?

Bob,

Will a shadow 280,000 feet long show in a 280 feet resolution
frame if the shadow is 20 feet wide?

Serge Salvaille






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                     Re: P-47: Re: The Problem of MUFON

From: Jim Bouck <JGBOUCK@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 20:27:21 EDT
Fwd Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 08:34:27 -0400
Subject: Re: P-47: Re: The Problem of MUFON


 >From: Kathleen Andersen <KAnder6444@aol.com>
 >Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 01:46:49 EDT
 >Subject: Re: P-47: Re: The Problem of MUFON
 >To: updates@globalserve.net

<snip>

 >And Herb..... its easy to find problems in any organization.
 >Rules of business: Progress is made when someone takes a
 >problem  and offers a solution.

 >Kathleen Andersen
 >State Section Director - Seattle
 >MUFON


Thank you Kathy,  I'm glad there are still those that realize
that it is easy to be a quitter and yet there are those of us
that refuse to quit and if changes are to be made they can be
made from the inside.

We in New York State have our problems with membership also and
have lost members for various reasons.  Some because of disen-
chantment with the organization and some because they lost
interest all together.

What might be a fad to some remains a dedication to others.  We
in NY are working to improve MUFON not attack it.

There are still things that need to be done, but it won't get
done if we just quit and sit on our butts and complain.  We need
to get out there and rebuild or repair where and when it is
needed.

I have had moments in the past in which I wanted to quit when
some friends of mine did quit. But I didn't and we have made
great improvements in NYS. We are going to make even more
improvements.  But if we all quit who will do the improvements?

As the saying goes "You can be part of the problem or be part of
the solution."

Jim Bouck
NYMUFON-ASD





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                           Re: Arnold Saw Pelicans

From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 21:51:50 EDT
Fwd Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 08:24:08 -0400
Subject: Re: Arnold Saw Pelicans


 >From: Dave Bowden <dave.bowden@cableinet.co.uk>
 >Date: Sun, 08 Aug 1999 01:37:04 +0000
 >Fwd Date: Mon, 09 Aug 1999 11:18:03 -0400
 >Subject: Re: Arnold Saw Pelicans


 >Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 11:12:11 -0400
 >From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >Subject: Re: Arnold Saw Pelicans
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>

<snip>

 >A "less than once in a lifetime event." HAHAHAHA May I suggest
 >you take Occam's Razor and shave off the pelicans (unless you
 >can prove pelicans can fly faster than 100 mph at 9,200 ft
 >altitude)

 >Oh God, how long's this Pelican thing going to go on for.

<snip>

 >I really don't see the logic of this debate.

Dave,

Maybe we should move the discussion over to a more appropriate
thread, such as "The Stupidity Within Ufology?"

Perhaps we're just jealous.  It's not often that one achieves
immortality in this field, but "pelicans" is an instant classic,
right up there with "swamp gas" and "crash dummies" for really
incredibly dumb debunking explanations.  Ufology will still be
laughing at it at the centennial of Arnold's sighting.

Fellow Dave

Fellow Sufferer





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                      Re: C-E: Hubble Moon Photos Found

From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 23:14:38 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 08:25:20 -0400
Subject: Re: C-E: Hubble Moon Photos Found


 >From: Brian Straight <brians@mdbs.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
 >Subject: Re: C-E: Hubble Moon Photos Found
 >Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 10:33:20 -0500

<snip>

 >Those who would argue that the moon landings never took place
 >should study the real evidence--not the nonsense promulgated by
 >the conspiracy web sites.

 >Brian


Hubba, hubba!

Or is it Hubble, Hubble!?

Dennis
http//:www.anomalist.com





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                Re: CPR-Canada News: 'Basket Weaving 101' at

From: Sue Strickland <strick@H2Net.net>
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 22:35:12 -0600
Fwd Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 08:28:27 -0400
Subject: Re: CPR-Canada News: 'Basket Weaving 101' at


 >Date: Sat, 7 Aug 1999 23:30:50 -0800
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
 >From: Paul Anderson - TMP / CPR-Canada <psa@direct.ca>
 >Subject: CPR-Canada News: 'Basket Weaving 101' at Roundway Hill

 >CPR-Canada News
 >News and Updates from Circles Phenomenon Research Canada

 >http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Cavern/3310

 >"Basket Weaving 101 at Roundway Hill"

 >August 7, 1999

 >_____________________________

 >With a season of many amazing and beautiful formations already
 >in England, this one certainly puts a new twist on things ("and
 >now for something completely different") - the latest formation,
 >at Roundway Hill, Wiltshire (the second now at this location),
 >displays a floor pattern which is literally "woven like a
 >basket" amid numerous thin rings of standing crop.
 >Unfortunately, the farmer cut the formation down almost
 >immediately after its discovery. However, Ulrich Kox was able to
 >take aerial photos before it met its fate. Some of his pictures
 >(as well as of many other circles) can be seen here (the top
 >three images in the left-hand menu):

 >http://cropcircleconnector.com/Sorensen/circles/1999/main.html

 >Or on the main 1999 page:

 >http://cropcircleconnector.com/1999/1999.html

 >Now, with the much-anticipated eclipse only four days away,
 >what may we expect next?

 >Paul Anderson
 >Director
 >Circles Phenomenon Research Canada


Dear Sirs,

These are works of art!  Thanks for sharing with us.  Whoever or
whatever created such beauty shows a deep appreciation for
similar art forms.  They may be graffiti to the farmer, but they
really are beautiful.

Hugs, Sue





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              NASA: Sharp Mars Images Reveal Active Red Planet

From: NASANews@hq.nasa.gov
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 13:30:24 -0400 (EDT)
Fwd Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 08:31:18 -0400
Subject: NASA: Sharp Mars Images Reveal Active Red Planet

Douglas Isbell
Headquarters, Washington, DC                    August 10, 1999
(Phone: 202/358-1753)

Franklin O'Donnell
Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Pasadena, CA
(Phone: 818/354-5011)

RELEASE:  99-91

SHARPEST-EVER MARS IMAGES REVEAL ACTIVE RED PLANET

      Newly released images from NASA's Mars Global Surveyor show
that the red planet is a different place today than it was two
years ago when the spacecraft arrived -- a world constantly
reshaped by forces of nature including shifting sand dunes,
monster dust devils, wind storms, frosts and polar ice caps that
grow and retreat with the seasons.

      "Mars is a cold, dry desert, but our camera has shown it is
far from being a stagnant place," said Dr. Michael Malin,
principal investigator for the Mars Global Surveyor camera at
Malin Space Science Systems, San Diego, CA.  "Over the past few
months, we have captured a unique record of seasonal and
meteorological events, which demonstrates that Mars is active and
dynamic today."

      The spacecraft's camera monitors the planet's weather on a
daily basis from orbit, just like weather satellites on Earth.
Today, Mars is a much more dynamic place than the planet the
Viking spacecraft saw in the late 1970s.  The weather has been
particularly active during the past two months, as spring arrived
in the southern hemisphere and autumn approached in the north.

      "Storm clouds have been brewing over the north polar ice cap
all through the month of July, and soon, ever-increasing portions
of the north polar cap will be plunged into wintertime darkness,"
Malin said.  "As the season changes rapidly, clouds will cover
much of the northern plains and it might begin to snow as the
polar cap expands."

      In other regions of Mars, dust devils are the prevailing
weather story.  Dust devils result from spinning vortices of air
that arise when the ground is heated and general wind flow is
light.  On Earth they are relatively small features, but on Mars,
dust devils are thought by some to be a major transporter of the
fine, pinkish dust that gives the sky its unearthly brownish
color, as seen by the Mars Pathfinder and Viking landers.  Dust
devils may also help initiate the seasonal raising of dust over
wide areas of Mars.

      In mid-May, swirling columns of dust as high as five miles
(eight kilometers) were observed in northern Amazonis Planitia.
Dust devils in this area, northwest of the large Tharsis
volcanoes, appear to be common; they were also seen by the Viking
missions of the 1970s.  The average dust devil is slow-moving and
may carry several tons of dust within its height of 1.2 miles (two
kilometers).

      Each lasts for a few hours at most during the hottest part of
the Martian day in the late afternoon, Malin said.  Although the
winds in these vortices are sufficient to raise dust, they have
much less power than tornadoes on Earth, which develop under very
different meteorological circumstances.

      Global Surveyor's camera has also returned tantalizing
evidence of recent shifting sands in dune fields first seen in
Mariner 9 pictures of Mars from the early 1970s.  Scientists are
interested in dune fields isolated within large impact craters
because their dark color suggests that the dust which covers much
of the rest of the planet does not accumulate on their sandy
surfaces.

      "This indicates that the dunes must be moving and that over
time we may be able to see changes that will allow us to measure
the rates of wind erosion on Mars," Malin explained.

      Sand dunes also are giving Mars scientists some new insights
as to how Mars' seasonal polar ice caps retreat at the end of each
winter as seasonal warming occurs.  The most dramatic views show
patches of dark sand poking through fields of carbon dioxide
frost.  First seen in 1998 in the north polar region, the same
features have been seen this year on dunes near the south pole.

      "These pictures look like aerial photographs of dunes on
Earth," Malin said.  "They are so unusual in this context that we
thought for a while that we were looking at a process that
involves small 'explosions,' but the new images showed that wind
was responsible for the streaks we were seeing."

      The dark spots on frost-covered dunes continue to grow and
spread as spring approaches until, eventually, the entire dune
field is frost-free.

      A variety of new images of Mars is available on the Internet
at:

                       http://www.msss.com/

      Mars Global Surveyor is the first mission in a long-term
program of Mars exploration, known as the Mars Surveyor Program,
managed by the Jet Propulsion Laboratory for NASA's Office of
Space Science, Washington, DC.  JPL's industrial partner is
Lockheed Martin Astronautics, Denver, CO, which developed and
operates the spacecraft.  JPL is a division of the California
Institute of Technology, Pasadena, CA.

                             -end-

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                       UFO ROUNDUP Volume 4 Number 16

From: Joseph Trainor - Masinaigan <Masinaigan@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 15:39:40 +0100
Fwd Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 13:06:55 -0400
Subject: UFO ROUNDUP Volume 4 Number 16


UFO ROUNDUP
Volume 4, Number 16
August 10, 1999
Editor: Joseph Trainor

BACK FROM THE DEAD... WELL, ALMOST!

      Nice to be back.  And it's hard to believe that three
months and three weeks have passed since the "Millenium Bugout,'
also known as your editor's move to the Midwest put a dent in
this year's edition of UFO Roundup.

      For the time being, until I can find a reliable server, the
newsletter is going to resemble the Fortean Times of the late
70s and early 80s. It's liable to be more of a "sporadical" than
a "weekly."  But I will try to have the newsletter back on track
with a regular schedule in the near future.

      For now, though, let's get to the news.  Read the first
three stories, and you'll see why I've started

calling 1999 the "summer of Midwest mysteries."

MYSTERIOUS VAN SIGHTED IN WARSAW, INDIANA

      On Sunday, August 1, 1999, at 9 a.m., B. White and D.
Jagger were having breakfast at the American Table restaurant in
Warsaw, Indiana (population 10,968), a small city 85 miles (136
kilometers) southeast of Chicago, when they spotted an unusual
white van parked in the lot of the Days Inn next door.

      White described the vehicle as "all white with UFO
INTERCEPT on the back window.  Under that it had the web address
www.ufoinfo.com."

      Although this is the web address of UFO INFO, the parent
site of UFO Roundup, neither site webmaster John Hayes nor
newsletter editor Joseph Trainor owns such a van or has any
knowledge of a group calling itself UFO INTERCEPT.

      Deepening the mystery were the van's out-of-state license
plates and its puzzling array of high-tech communications
equipment and antennae.

      White described it as "a full-size newer van" with "Georgia
plates.  He was unable to recall the numerals on the Georgia
license plate.

      The two men saw "lots of antennas and the rotating dish of
a radar," White reported, "It was white like on a ship," and the
dish "spun around."

      White saw a male Caucasian approach the mysterious van.  He
described the man as "late fifties, early sixties.  He had
medium-length white/ gray hair.  He was around 5 feet, 9 inches
(tall). 190 to 200 pounds and stocky...He had on jeans and a
sky-blue, button-up shirt that was not tucked in."

      "The man walked to the van and opened the driver door and
peered around, leaning in the van," he added, "He then walked to
the passenger door and did the same.  He closed the door and
then walked up some (motel) stairs."

      Their curiosity aroused by the website addressm White and
Jagger logged onto the UFO INFO website. Afterwards, they sent
an email to webmaster John Hayes, who lives in Edmonton, London,
UK and was intrigued by the web address on the van.

      The investigation continues.

(Editor's Comment:  John and I have separate opinions on this
case.  He thinks it might be a high-tech-oriented  Roundup fan.
I think it's a surveillance van of the Bureau of Alcohol,
Tobacco and Firearms (ATF) in UFO drag.  Although what it's
doing in Warsaw, Indiana is anybody's guess.)


BLACK HELICOPTER CRASHES DULUTH'S JULY FOURTH CELEBRATION

      On Sunday, July 4, 1999, your editor left his apartment at
8:30 p.m. to watch the big Fourth of July fireworks celebration
in Duluth, Minnesota (population 85,414), a port city on Lake
Superior approximately 156 miles (249 kilometers) north of
Minneapolis.

      At first I planned to watch the fireworks show from Skyline
Parkway, up on Hawk Ridge, which has a panoramic view of St.
Louis Bay, Duluth and the neighboring city of Superior,
Wisconsin.  But a thunderstorm was moving in, and the cloud
mists were so thick up on the ridge that I could barely see
twenty feet (6 meters) ahead of me.

      So Instead, I drove halfway down Duluth's Central Hillsie
to Observation Community Park, one of the 32 municipal parks in
the city.  The park is located on Third Street near Tenth Avenue
West and has a breathtaking view of the downtown area, the
city's waterfront, Park Point and Bayfront Park, the site of the
Fourth of July celebration.

      About 35 people from the neighborhood were with me at 9
p.m., waiting for the show to begin in one hour.  Mindful of the
"tornado alert" I'd seen on KDLH-TV Channel 3 earlier in the
evening, I kept one eye on the threatening clouds.  We heard
several booms of thunder and saw lightning flashes, mostly
within the thunderclouds.  Although an occasional lightning bolt
touched down across St. Louis Bay in Superior, Wisconsin and
west of our city near Thompson Hill and Spirit Mountain.

      At 9:05 p.m. I saw the black helicopter.  It came in fast
from the west, over the Enger Tower, and made a slight turn to
the left, flying right past Observation Park at an estimated
altitude of 4,000 feet.

      I couldn't believe my eyes.  No pilot in his right mind
would be flying in weather like this.  I saw lightning flashing
white and pale green just above the chopper's rotor blades.  But
the pilot flew on as if it were a clear and sunny day.

      The helicopter was a pitch-black turbojet chopper with four
rotor blades, a Polaroid windshield, two side windows, a
shrouded tail rotor and no visible landing gear, neither wheels
nor skids.  The helicopter had no insignia of any kind visible.
It was operating without red or green navigation lights.

      I kept this helicopter in view as it flew past the park in
a northeasterly direction, over the midtown area, until it
disappeared over the hily horizon north and east of Mount Royal
and Woodland Avenue.  I had the helicopter in view for about
three minutes.

      At 9:10 p.m., Observation Park was hit by a sudden, violent
downpour.  The rain lasted for only five minutes, however.
Afterwards, the onlookers and I stepped out from under the eaves
of the Clubhouse building and resumed our viewing spots in the
park's tennis courts, still waiting for the fireworks show.

      At 9:40 p.m., the black helicopter returned. This time it
came from the Spirit Mountain area, a little to the south of its
previous point of origin, and flew the same west-to-east course
over the central city.  Again the pilot seemed oblivious to the
high winds and lightning flashes among the clouds. This time,
however, the chopper did have two lights on.  Both of them were
bright yellowish-white lights, mounted in the center of the
botom of the fuselage and aiming fore and aft.  Even at an
estimated altitude of 2,500 feet, the lights' glow was strong
enough for me to make out details of the chopper's fuselage in
the growing darkness.

      After the fireworks show, I returned home and dug out my
aircraft recognition handbook.  I looked for a match with the
helicopter I'd seen.  And I fouind one.

      I believe it was a Eurocopter AS 565 Panther, a light
attack and utility chopper unveiled in 1984 and used by NATO.

      The thunderstorm turned out to be one of the most
destructive in the Northland in recent years, affecting an area
stretching from International Falls, Minnesota to Rhinelander,
Wisconsin. The storm did $14 million worth of damage to the
region, although most of the lightning damage was in northern
Wisconsin.

      I have no idea why that NATO chopper was flying in so
violent a thunderstorm or what it was doing in Duluth,
Minnesota.  (For more on the storm, see the Duluth News-Tribune
for July 5, July 6 and July 22, 1999.)

(Editor's Comment:  During the past month, I've wondered if the
black chopper was out searching for Benjamin Smith. the gunman
who killed basketball coach Ricky Byrdsong and a Korean grad
student in Illinois and Indiana over the Fourth of July weekend.
But if it was hunting for Smith, it was in the wrong state.
Smith died in a police shootout in southern Illinois earlier
that Sunday evening.)


MAN DISAPPEARS IN LAKE MICHIGAN TRIANGLE

      On Friday, June 26, 1999, a 37-foot Sea Ray Sundancer
powerboat ran over a fishing boat and capsized it.  The accident
took place on Lake Michigan just east of Two Rivers, Wisconsin
(population 13,030) a town located 91 miles (145 kilometers)
north of Milwaukee.

      Missing and presumed dead is Mark Rickert of Appleton,
Wisconsin.

      "Chief Petty Officer Mark Barker, in charge of the U.S.
Coast Guard station in Two Rivers and Sheboygan said the agency
searched 100 square miles in calm seas 'with fantastic
visibility,' Saturday," June 27, 1999.

      "'We turned up nothing,' he said."

      "The Coast Guard called off its search for the 46-year-old
man Saturday...The missing man and three others on the 19-foot
fishing boat when a 37-foot Sea Ray Sundancer 'ran over' their
vessel, Barker said."

      "Barker said there were no plans to resume the search for
Mark Rickert...unless some development warranted that move."
(See the Milwaukee Sentinel for June 27, 1999.)

(Editor's Note: Two Rivers is 7 miles north of Manitowoc,
Wisconsin.  Like its sister city across the lake--Ludington,
Michigan--Manitowoc is alleged to be a nexus of the Lake
Michigan Triangle. Manitowoc is also the locale of the sighting
of the :weird white creature" in April 1998.)


UFO VIDEOTAPED IN NORTHERN BRAZIL

      On Sunday, July 4, 1999, a UFO hovered in the morning sky
over Jardim das Piranhas, a town in the state of Rio Grande do
Norte in Brazil and was videotaped by a local photographer.

      Promtly at 8 a.m., Ricardo Rilley Cavalcantede Oliveira,
32, left his home on the Rua Pedro Araujo with his camcorder.
Rilley Cavalcantede makes his living as a videographer
specializing in shooting footage of weddings, and he was on his
way to a local church.

     Ricardo told the Brazilian newspapers that the UFO "was just
a glow, like a flourescent light.  It was blue at that time and
became reddish."

      That evening, he showed the video in public in Jardim das
Piranhas central plaza.  As the crowd watched, the UFO appeared
again at 8 p.m., hovering over the plaza.

      He described the glowing UFO as being "like a plate."

      Ricardo immediately grabbed his camcorder and began
shooting.  He shot ten minutes of video, and then his battery
began wearing down.  He went to fetch a fresh battery for the
camcorder.  When he returned, the hovering object was gone.

      "The thing was a white orb and then became red," Ricardo
reported, "with a green aura around the edge."  (See the
Brazilian newspaper Diario de Natal for July 6, 1999.  Muito
obrigado a Thiago Luiz Ticchetti por eso caso.)

      Join us again for more UFO and paranormal news from around
the world. The email address is still the same.  So for the time
being, send your UFO reports to Masinaigan@aol.com.  Have a
great week!

=======

UFOINFO:- http://ufoinfo.com

Archives for UFO Roundup/Filer's Files/UK UFO Network Bulletin/





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   Aug > Aug 11

                   Re: What's Wrong With British Ufology?

From: Rory Lushman <Oubliette@currantbun.com>
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 15:39:10 +0100
Fwd Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 13:09:58 -0400
Subject: Re: What's Wrong With British Ufology?


 >From: Martin Phillips <mphillips@btinternet.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
 >Subject: Re: What's Wrong With British Ufology?
 >Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 22:18:02 +0100

 >>From: Rory Lushman <Oubliette@currantbun.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
 >>Subject: Re: What's Wrong With British Ufology?
 >>Date: Mon, 9 Aug 1999 19:00:57 +0100

 >> Investigations should be of a high standard and I think we
 >>should not allow anyone to talk "rubbish" if they cannot back up
 >>their claims.

 >means you think you know best what's good for the public. Thank
 >you, but I'd rather decide for myself, after hearing all sides
 >of the debate. The above comment calls for censorship, the very
 >thing that most people interested in UFOs complain that our
 >political leaders do.


Interpret it how you will and twist my comments to suit your
argument. I will clarify my point for you. I said everyone is
entitled to an opinion. I'm not after censoring anyone but
everyone should expect to have to answer questions to back up
their research, whether pro or anti ET.

Can you honestly say it fair to let someone talk for two hours
about how we all descended from gold miners thousands of years
ago and not have the right to ask on what they base their
theory. I say let them talk, they are highly amusing.

Why censor these people, they make idiots of themselves anyway.
Before anyone challenges me on that comment, I am talking about
a very small minority that even the pro ET crowd find extreme.

Rory Lushman.





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   Aug > Aug 11

               Re: Research Proposal - Hypnotic Suggestibility

From: Jenny Randles <nufon@currantbun.com>
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 15:42:58 +0100
Fwd Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 14:29:08 -0400
Subject: Re: Research Proposal - Hypnotic Suggestibility


 >Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 12:11:46 -0500
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
 >From: Joel Henry <jhenry@visi.com>
 >Subject: Re: Research Proposal - Hypnotic Suggestibility

 >>Date: Mon, 09 Aug 1999 23:40:26 -0600
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
 >>From: Bobbie Felder <jilain@plinet.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Research Proposal - Hypnotic Suggestibility

 >>>From: Tim D. Brigham <TBrigham@ksinc.net>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
 >>>Subject: Research Proposal - Hypnotic Suggestibility
 >>>Date: Sat, 7 Aug 1999 23:39:00 -0500

 >>>Subject: Research Proposal - Hypnotic Suggestibility, Event
 >>>Related Brain Potentials, and Paranormal Experiences

 >><snip>

 >>>The focus has shifted to examine the theoretical "fantasy
 >>>prone personality," paranormal belief and experiences,

 >>Why?

 >The problem here is the ASSumption that all abductees are
 >fantasy prone individuals who are also firmly entrenched in
 >certain paranormal, etc. belief systems. This is simpy not
 >true and very few poeple actually check to see if the
 >abductee has already been checked out for these features.
 >This is part of the psychological screening process which
 >needs to be done even before the hypnotic regression occurs
 >and is the deciding element if the regression should even
 >bother to be done.

 >Each regression case should be qualified as to accuracy,
 >usefullness, and competence by checking on whether and to
 >what extent the abductee in question has been checked out
 >beforehand and by whom.

 >Throwing around generalisations about hypnotism and bad
 >mouthing the hypnotists without first knowing the processes
 >that were used and checking for mistakes, etc. by reviewing
 >tapes of the regressions is a serious act of prejudice.
 >We don't need knee-jerk criticism of things based on no
 >solid facts.



Hi,

Now I did not read what was actually a very sensible and
interesting experiment in this light. In my experience as a
researcher of abduction cases (the more detailed justification
is in my new book 'Aliens and Abductions' - which cross compares
cases from many different countries) several statistical results
stand out.

One of these is that witnesses are visually creative to a far
higher degree than a normal population sample. What it means, of
course, is another matter. But this emerged from my data and it
has been found in studies of US and Australian cases too. So I
think it is a reasonably valid proposition.

This is not the same as suggesting that abductees are thus
fantasy prone. This theory - whilst a reasonable one to propose
out of such data - has, in fact, not been verified in tests
carried out - as various papers presented at the MIT symposium
in l992 pretty firmly established.

However, the data itself as regards to a tendancy towards visual
creativity remains and requires a resolution. That is why the
kind of research being proposed could potentially offer
fascinating results. It is by these that we should judge the
work not by any presupposition of what theory might lie behind
the experiment or what outcome it might take us towards.

As I have noted before in this forum the fact that abductees are
visually creative is not in of itself incompatible with alien
contact. It may prove to be more compatible with some other
theory, of course, or ultimately it may not. But facts are facts
and evidential results from serious experiments are evidential
results. We need both to define workable theories - not merely
suppositions and guesses as to what is happening based on too
often subjective data - and we ought not to make up our minds as
to what the best theory is before we actually have such results.
I doubt that was what was suggested here, but lets just wait and
see what emerges.

Best wishes,

Jenny Randles





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   Aug > Aug 11

                                  Re: Pics

From: Dave Ledger <dledger@cableinet.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 17:03:59 +0100
Fwd Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 14:34:28 -0400
Subject: Re: Pics


 >From: Jerry Anderson <jerry@uforesearch.freeserve.co.uk>
 >To: <updates@globalserve.net>
 >Subject: Pics
 >Date: Mon, 9 Aug 1999 22:54:40 +0100


 >Dear list,

 >Take a look at these photo's, and tell me what you think the
 >object is.

 >The object is travelling from left to right.

 >There were no lights what - so - ever on the 'vehicle'.

 >It moved at around 15 - 20 mph.

 >Estimated size is approx. 100 foot long.
 >
 >Estimated altitude 1000 feet.
 >
 >There was no noise reported.
 >
 >No balloons or dirigibles were operating that night.

 >No civil or military aircraft were in the area at that time.

 >Video enhancement shows a minor exhaust emission.

 >It reflected no light from the town below.


Dear Errol, Jerry and list,

Regarding the recent pics sent to the list by Jerry Anderson:

FYI, We actually have this footage on the UFO Scotland website
entitled gravesend.mpg.

Also an interesting fact that Jerry seems to have left out which
may well be relevant:

This particular footage was recorded by a night security camera
in Gravesend, Kent during July of 1997. The amazing thing is
that no-one to my knowledge from Kent, actually confirmed this
sighting or saw anything as the video was recorded. Can these
cameras see things that the human eye cannot?, or could it be a
glitch with the surveillance system itself?

The gravesend footage can be downloaded from the first page of
our videos collection at:

http://wkweb5.cableinet.co.uk/dledger/video.htm

I have also added some new pieces of footage to the UFO Scotland
website over the last few days, for anyone with an interest in
UFO's captured on film. The downloads are free of course :0)

Any comments or constructive criticism are welcome as always.

All the best for now,

 From your friend,

Dave Ledger. (UFO Scotland)


PS: Wasn't the eclipse eerie and spectacular? Hopefully we will
see some ufo footage come forward over the next few days
captured during the eclipse just like in Mexico 1991.

--
==================================================================
If you see someone without a smile......give them one of yours :)
******************************************************************
Posted by: Dave Ledger  (mailto:UFOSCOT@cableinet.co.uk)
VISIT "UFO SCOTLAND" AT:
<A HREF="http://wkweb5.cableinet.co.uk/dledger/">UFO Scotland.</A>
ICQ pager      http://wwp.mirabilis.com/4851425
******************************************************************
THE TRUTH IS JUST AROUND THE CORNER!..................BUT HOW FAR?
==================================================================
"The sands of time are trickling away from our dear mother Earth
  and yet we continue to fight amongst ourselves and destroy our
natural enviroment,leaving all the mess for our children and their
children's children to inherit when we're gone."





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   Aug > Aug 11

               Re: Research Proposal - Hypnotic Suggestibility

From: Tim D. Brigham <TBrigham@ksinc.net>
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 13:03:21 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 14:36:43 -0400
Subject: Re: Research Proposal - Hypnotic Suggestibility


 >Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 12:11:46 -0500
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
 >From: Joel Henry <jhenry@visi.com>
 >Subject: Re: Research Proposal - Hypnotic Suggestibility

 >Throwing around generalisations about hypnotism and bad
 >mouthing the hypnotists without first knowing the processes
 >that were used and checking for mistakes, etc. by reviewing
 >tapes of the regressions is a serious act of prejudice.
 >We don't need knee-jerk criticism of things based on no
 >solid facts.

 >If, after careful examination of the regression, regressor,
 >methods used, and prescreening process, the case appears to be
 >poorly handled, then it can be labelled as such and set aside
 >as non-useable in further study and investigation. I don't see
 >this being done by ANY naysayers.

 >Joel Henry


Speaking of facts, weren't you all the ones who, a couple of
years ago, had decided to perform some sort of massive project
to get "independent verification" of UFO abductions? That one
oddly died out, to my knowledge....





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   Aug > Aug 11

                         Re: Hypnotic Suggestibility

From: Tim D. Brigham <TBrigham@ksinc.net>
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 12:57:47 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 14:39:04 -0400
Subject: Re: Hypnotic Suggestibility


 >Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 12:11:46 -0500
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
 >From: Joel Henry <jhenry@visi.com>
 >Subject: Re: Research Proposal - Hypnotic Suggestibility

 >>Date: Mon, 09 Aug 1999 23:40:26 -0600
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
 >>From: Bobbie Felder <jilain@plinet.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Research Proposal - Hypnotic Suggestibility

 >>>From: Tim D. Brigham <TBrigham@ksinc.net>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
 >>>Subject: Research Proposal - Hypnotic Suggestibility
 >>>Date: Sat, 7 Aug 1999 23:39:00 -0500

 >>>Subject: Research Proposal - Hypnotic Suggestibility, Event
 >>>Related Brain Potentials, and Paranormal Experiences

 >><snip>

 >>>The focus has shifted to examine the theoretical "fantasy
 >>>prone personality," paranormal belief and experiences,

 >>Why?

Well I think you snipped at least part of the answer - it's more
doable. I do not have unlimited resources or assistance. I have
nothing but my own money at this point to do what I will, and
have the help and equipment of people (and this is important)
who think this might be _worthwhile and interesting_ to be
involved in and decide they are interested in helping me- a
lowly undergrad at this point- out. Read that last part again
and think about it. I never said this was the end all of UFO
studies, but I think it's a good step in gathering some data.


 >The problem here is the ASSumption that all abductees are
 >fantasy prone individuals who are also firmly entrenched in
 >certain paranormal, etc. belief systems.

Who said all?

I could go on about signal to noise, trying to screen out
fantasy prone ppl from "real abductees" etc, but.... Nuff said.

 >Throwing around generalisations about hypnotism and bad
 >mouthing the hypnotists without first knowing the processes
 >that were used and checking for mistakes, etc. by reviewing
 >tapes of the regressions is a serious act of prejudice.
 >We don't need knee-jerk criticism of things based on no
 >solid facts.

Again, I honestly have no idea what/who exactly you are
referring to. If a scientififc study is a way to 'bad mouth a
hypnotist,' that's a new one to me. But we are in agreement
about lack of facts, which is why I'm keeping this response
short so I can try to actually gather some.

Keep watching the skies-
Tim





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                      UFOs Filmed Over English Channel

From: David Clarke <crazydiamonds@compuserve.com>
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 14:45:44 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 15:41:59 -0400
Subject: UFOs Filmed Over English Channel


Dear all,

I am in possession of a remarkable camcorder video film which
appears to show at least two, possibly three, unidentified
flying objects alongside a passenger jet over the English
Channel.

The video was taken by a Sheffield family of three who were
outbound to Tangiers, Morocco, from Birmingham City Airport, on
board an Air Morocco 737, several years ago.

The family were sitting in the front passenger seats of the
plane, as the couple's daughter is severely disabled. The
camcorder was pointing out of the cabin window backwards towards
the wings. Although nothing was seen at the time, when footage
of the flight was edited a week ago all the family noticed a
strange dark object which is clearly visible on the video
apparently hovering beyond the wing of the aircraft, which is
sharply visible against a blue sky.

Close examination of the video shows a second, and possibly a
third object closer to the wing.

The object which first draws attention appears to be ball-shaped
and grey in colour, and examination at Sheffield University has
identified other apparent "features" which may or may not be
significant.

The footage lasts two or three seconds, during which this
ball-shaped object appears to join the others before the camera
pans away inside the aircraft. Footage taken earlier and later
in the flight do not show any obvious feature on the aircraft
window or wing which could have been responsible.

The weather at the time is clear blue skies with light cumulus
clouds; and the aircraft was cruising between 33-35,000 feet
when the "UFOs" appear. A shot seconds earlier appears to show
one of the Channel Islands, possibly Guernsey, shortly before
the objects come into view.

Having examined the video I have unable to reach any conclusions
as to what is shown, but have considered the possibility of
meteorological balloons or optical illusions.

At the moment the family are trying to identify an exact time
and date when the video was taken to facilitate further
investigation. The family have offered the video for computer
enhancement and analysis as they are anxious to find an
explanation for what they filmed.

The footage is currently being copied for examination at two
university departments.

I am appealing to anyone who can offer, or suggest contacts for
further independent expert analysis to contact me by email.

No details of this incident have yet appeared in the Press.

Many thanks,

Dr David Clarke





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   Aug > Aug 11

                                  Re: Pics

From: Jenny Randles <nufon@currantbun.com>
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 20:15:13 +0100
Fwd Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 15:51:24 -0400
Subject: Re: Pics


 >From: Jerry Anderson <jerry@uforesearch.freeserve.co.uk>
 >To: <updates@globalserve.net>
 >Subject: Pics
 >Date: Mon, 9 Aug 1999 22:54:40 +0100

 >Dear list,

 >Take a look at these photo's, and tell me what you think the
 >object is.

 >The object is travelling from left to right.

 >There were no lights what - so - ever on the 'vehicle'.

 >It moved at around 15 - 20 mph.

 >Estimated size is approx. 100 foot long.

 >Estimated altitude 1000 feet.

 >There was no noise reported.

 >No balloons or dirigibles were operating that night.

 >No civil or military aircraft were in the area at that time.

 >Video enhancement shows a minor exhaust emission.

 >It reflected no light from the town below.


Hi,

Thanks for posting these intriguing photos. My first thought
concerned the aura round the object that suggests relative
proximity to the camera. Particularly as the very slow speed
estimate suggests it cannot be a factor of motion by the object.
For that reason I'd be interested to know where the judgement of
size and distance originates.

I did contemplate a bird (not a pelican -  dont worry Jerry)
based on similar cases of photos that I have seen freeze birds
in UFO like postures. But this seems to be clearly refuted for
various reasons, not least that this is a sequence ofd shots and
to expect so many to create UFO like images by chance is pushing
things. Also assuming the time measurements given are correct.
If there is relatively minor motion between shots taken a minute
apart what is the duration for the entire sequence of the
sighting and between all the shots where time readings are not
visible?

The speed estimate obviously depends upon the accuracy of height
and distance. What is the distance from the camera to the
building in the right background as on first sight the object
appears to be closer than that. Of course, these are subjective
estimates and I assume a full analysis has been completed? If so
are the figures quoted based on that or witness estimates?

This is certainly an intriguing case as it stands. Can you tell
us more about what the witness reported and how the footage was
secured, please?

Best wishes,

Jenny Randles







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   Aug > Aug 11

                 Re: Robert Sarbacher Letter At Auction Now

From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@YorkU.CA>
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 15:03:39 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time)
Fwd Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 15:47:46 -0400
Subject: Re: Robert Sarbacher Letter At Auction Now


 >From: William Steinman <wsteinmn@pe.net>
 >To: <updates@globalserve.net>
 >Subject: Robert Sarbacher Letter At Auction Now
 >Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 07:02:34 -0700

 >[Non-subscriber post]

 >The Robert I. Sarbacher letter to William S. Steinman, dated
 >Nov. 29, 1983, is now on the auction block at eBay under item #
 >141895776. It is listed under Books:Non-Fiction:Paranormal.

 >This is the letter in which Dr. Robert I. Sarbacher, president
 >of the Washington Institute of Technology, admitted in writing,
 >for the first and only time, that the U.S. Government had
 >Crashed & Recovered U.F.O.'s and bodies in captivity,

 >This letter is considered a major piece of U.F.O. Evidence.

 >It goes to the highest bidder. Bidding closes on Aug. 14, 1999.

 >Very Sincerely
 >William S. Steinman


Hi everyone.

This letter by Dr. Robert I. Sarbacher to researcher William S.
Steinman is an important verification of and addition to the
September 15, 1950 interview that Dr. Sarbacher gave to Wilbur
B. Smith of the Canadian Department of Transport which Smith
summarized in his now famous November 21, 1950 "Memorandum to
the Controller of Telecommunications".  This memorandum,
originally stamped Top Secret but which can now be viewed by the
public at the National Archives of Canada, states that flying
saucers exist and that they are the most highly classified
subject in the United States Government, among other things.

In a 1983 interview of Sarbacher by Stan Friedman, Sarbacher
made reference to someone who attended all the meetings at
Wright Field concerning the recovered saucers.  Steinman was
able to identify this someone as Dr. Eric A. Walker,
distinguished scientist and past President of Penn State
University. Interestingly, in a letter to Steinman, Walker made
mention of four surviving occupants of a landing vehicle (Walker
believed it may still exist at Wright Field) who were
successfully integrated into American society.  This idea that
human looking E.T.s are roaming the Earth seems to be supported
in the opinions expressed by Colonel Howard McCoy of Project
Sign and later with NICAP in a long lost audio tape that was
recently tracked down by Wendy Connors and played on Errol's
'Strange Days...Indeed' UFO radio program last Sunday night.

Although they were highly respected scientists, it is not too
surprising that these and other things that Sarbacher, Smith,
Walker and others have stated in writing or in interviews about
their firsthand knowledge of the UFO phenomena are not readily
accepted even by believing ufologists.  Is there a limit on how
much truth or strangness about UFOs we are prepared to accept?

A quick look at eBay for this historic Sarbacher letter (item
141895776) surprised me that after 10 bids, the top bid was only
$152.95.

Nick Balaskas






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               Re: Research Proposal - Hypnotic Suggestibility

From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>>
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 15:43:13 EDT
Fwd Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 16:20:23 -0400
Subject: Re: Research Proposal - Hypnotic Suggestibility


 >Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 12:11:46 -0500
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
 >From: Joel Henry <jhenry@visi.com>
 >Subject: Re: Research Proposal - Hypnotic Suggestibility


 >>Date: Mon, 09 Aug 1999 23:40:26 -0600
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
 >>From: Bobbie Felder <jilain@plinet.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Research Proposal - Hypnotic Suggestibility

 >>>From: Tim D. Brigham <TBrigham@ksinc.net>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
 >>>Subject: Research Proposal - Hypnotic Suggestibility
 >>>Date: Sat, 7 Aug 1999 23:39:00 -0500

 >>>Subject: Research Proposal - Hypnotic Suggestibility, Event
 >>>Related Brain Potentials, and Paranormal Experiences

 >><snip>

 >>>The focus has shifted to examine the theoretical "fantasy
 >>>prone personality," paranormal belief and experiences,

 >>Why?


 >The problem here is the ASSumption that all abductees are
 >fantasy prone individuals who are also firmly entrenched in
 >certain paranormal, etc. belief systems. This is simpy not
 >true and very few poeple actually check to see if the
 >abductee has already been checked out for these features.
 >This is part of the psychological screening process which
 >needs to be done even before the hypnotic regression occurs
 >and is the deciding element if the regression should even
 >bother to be done.

The real problem here is not the abductee and his or her
belief structure, but that of the researcher conducting the
investigation. No one has really looked into that until we
did it in The Abduction Enigma. What we found was that
most of the abductees were sincere and honest people who
had some kind of unusual experience or who believed they
had. It was the researcher who hung the label on it,
injecting his or her own beliefs into the situation. He who
shall remain nameless lost his license not only for hot
tubing but for implanting his beliefs on his clients. Edith
Fiore told her patiences, when nothing appeared, "To make
it up."

And before we hear, once again that Fiore is not accepted by the
"mainstream" I might point out that she has been endorsed by one
half of the partnership that created ACCET to teach mental
health professionals how to deal with those who believed they
have been abducted.

 >Each regression case should be qualified as to accuracy,
 >usefullness, and competence by checking on whether and to
 >what extent the abductee in question has been checked out
 >beforehand and by whom.


And shouldn't the person conducting the regression also be
checked out. I might add here that in the experiment conducted
using chemical regression that no abduction memory surfaced,
although such memories were recovered under hypnotic regression.







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   Aug > Aug 11

                    Re: UFOs Filmed Over English Channel

From: Jenny Randles" <nufon@currantbun.com>
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 20:28:22 +0100
Fwd Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 16:26:51 -0400
Subject: Re: UFOs Filmed Over English Channel


 >Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 14:45:44 -0400
 >From: David Clarke <crazydiamonds@compuserve.com>
 >Subject: UFOs Filmed Over English Channel
 >To: UFO Updates <updates@globalserve.net>

 >I am in possession of a remarkable camcorder video film which
 >appears to show at least two, possibly three, unidentified
 >flying objects alongside a passenger jet over the English
 >Channel.

 >The video was taken by a Sheffield family of three who were
 >outbound to Tangiers, Morocco, from Birmingham City Airport, on
 >board an Air Morocco 737, several years ago.

 >The family were sitting in the front passenger seats of the
 >plane, as the couple's daughter is severely disabled. The
 >camcorder was pointing out of the cabin window backwards towards
 >the wings. Although nothing was seen at the time, when footage
 >of the flight was edited a week ago all the family noticed a
 >strange dark object which is clearly visible on the video
 >apparently hovering beyond the wing of the aircraft, which is
 >sharply visible against a blue sky.

 >Close examination of the video shows a second, and possibly a
 >third object closer to the wing.

 >The object which first draws attention appears to be ball-shaped
 >and grey in colour, and examination at Sheffield University has
 >identified other apparent "features" which may or may not be
 >significant.

 >The footage lasts two or three seconds, during which this
 >ball-shaped object appears to join the others before the camera
 >pans away inside the aircraft. Footage taken earlier and later
 >in the flight do not show any obvious feature on the aircraft
 >window or wing which could have been responsible.

 >The weather at the time is clear blue skies with light cumulus
 >clouds; and the aircraft was cruising between 33-35,000 feet
 >when the "UFOs" appear. A shot seconds earlier appears to show
 >one of the Channel Islands, possibly Guernsey, shortly before
 >the objects come into view.

 >Having examined the video I have unable to reach any conclusions
 >as to what is shown, but have considered the possibility of
 >meteorological balloons or optical illusions.

 >At the moment the family are trying to identify an exact time
 >and date when the video was taken to facilitate further
 >investigation. The family have offered the video for computer
 >enhancement and analysis as they are anxious to find an
 >explanation for what they filmed.

 >The footage is currently being copied for examination at two
 >university departments.

 >I am appealing to anyone who can offer, or suggest contacts for
 >further independent expert analysis to contact me by email.

 >No details of this incident have yet appeared in the Press.

Hi,

This sounds interesting. Not having seen it I dont want to make
too many presumptions but how much have you considered the
possibility of some kind of optical reflection effect - like the
infamous sighting of an aircraft tailfin double reflection?
Hints of this appear with the reference to the grey image, just
by the wing, the fact that there are three images and that these
seem to merge as the camera moves / pans away.

These features, along with the sharp backward pointing angle of
the camera, match what happened on the Manchester-Southampton
flight where the tail fin appeared as a consequence of the
complex optics involved as if it were a freely floating UFO. So
its an option to bear in mind. But of course, this is pure
guesswork at this stage and without knowing the optics involved
it cannot be more than that. You need to try to establish the
type of aircraft used on that precise flight.

Is there any way you can capture a still for posting? That might
give us a better impression.

Best wishes,






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   Aug > Aug 11

                                  Re: Pics

From: Jerry Anderson <jerry@uforesearch.freeserve.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 21:13:23 +0100
Fwd Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 16:39:19 -0400
Subject: Re: Pics


 >Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 17:03:59 +0100
 >From: Dave Ledger <dledger@cableinet.co.uk>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
 >Subject: Re: Pics


 >>From: Jerry Anderson <jerry@uforesearch.freeserve.co.uk>
 >>To: <updates@globalserve.net>
 >>Subject: Pics
 >>Date: Mon, 9 Aug 1999 22:54:40 +0100


 >>Dear list,

 >>Take a look at these photo's, and tell me what you think the
 >>object is.

 >>The object is travelling from left to right.

 >>There were no lights what - so - ever on the 'vehicle'.

 >>It moved at around 15 - 20 mph.

 >>Estimated size is approx. 100 foot long.

 >>Estimated altitude 1000 feet.

 >>There was no noise reported.

 >>No balloons or dirigibles were operating that night.

 >>No civil or military aircraft were in the area at that time.

 >>Video enhancement shows a minor exhaust emission.

 >>It reflected no light from the town below.


 >Regarding the recent pics sent to the list by Jerry Anderson:

 >FYI, We actually have this footage on the UFO Scotland website
 >entitled gravesend.mpg.

 >Also an interesting fact that Jerry seems to have left out which
 >may well be relevant:

 >This particular footage was recorded by a night security camera
 >in Gravesend, Kent during July of 1997. The amazing thing is
 >that no-one to my knowledge from Kent, actually confirmed this
 >sighting or saw anything as the video was recorded. Can these
 >cameras see things that the human eye cannot?, or could it be a
 >glitch with the surveillance system itself?


Dear Dave and List,

My apologies to you Dave for neglecting to mention that part of
the Gravesend footage is on your superb UFO Scotland site!

I will send you the full footage Dave, and maybe we can make it
available to all.

Dave is quite correct in his description surrounding the facts
of this particular sighting, except that there was one other
witness, independent of the camera operator, who reported the
'craft' to the local Police. Unfortunately, he declined to leave
a forwarding name and despite appeals in the press he still has
not come forward.

The investigation is ongoing, and will be featured in a London
Weekend TV production in the fall this year. The programme is
entitled 'The Unknown', in which the crew travelled all around
the world in their search for UFO footage.

It is interesting to note that the recent British documentary
'Riddle Of The Skies' originally wanted to use this footage,
declaring that it was a lot more convincing than most of the
footage they had previously acquired. A pity then, that they
gave some lame excuse for not airing it on national TV.....in
short, they lost their bottle.

For more information on this and other British sightings
undertaken by myself and our team, please visit:
http://roswell.fortunecity.com/aroma/294 and head for the Index
page.

Best wishes,






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   Aug > Aug 11

                                 The Eclipse

From: "Martin Phillips" <mphillips@btinternet.com>
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 22:19:16 +0100
Fwd Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 17:51:50 -0400
Subject: The Eclipse


Dear All,

As some of you will know, Britain enjoyed a solar eclipse
today. It was a blowout for most people, becasue of cloud
cover, but in the SE of England we saw a 95% coverage.

Given what happened in Mexico a few years ago, are
there any signs of increased UFO sightings here?

At least we shouldn't be confusing birds with UFOs - from
what i saw, all the birds stopped flying and found a roost
during the darkening - I assume this is normal in near-
total eclipses?

Martin Phillips





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   Aug > Aug 11

                   Re: What's Wrong With British Ufology?

From: Martin Phillips <mphillips@btinternet.com>
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 22:15:57 +0100
Fwd Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 17:54:30 -0400
Subject: Re: What's Wrong With British Ufology?


 >From: Rory Lushman <Oubliette@currantbun.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
 >Subject: Re: What's Wrong With British Ufology?
 >Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 15:39:10 +0100

 >>From: Martin Phillips <mphillips@btinternet.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
 >>Subject: Re: What's Wrong With British Ufology?
 >>Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 22:18:02 +0100

 >>>From: Rory Lushman <Oubliette@currantbun.com>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
 >>>Subject: Re: What's Wrong With British Ufology?
 >>>Date: Mon, 9 Aug 1999 19:00:57 +0100

 >>>Investigations should be of a high standard and I think we
 >>>should not allow anyone to talk "rubbish" if they cannot back up
 >>>their claims.

 >>means you think you know best what's good for the public. Thank
 >>you, but I'd rather decide for myself, after hearing all sides
 >>of the debate. The above comment calls for censorship, the very
 >>thing that most people interested in UFOs complain that our
 >>political leaders do.

 >Interpret it how you will and twist my comments to suit your
 >argument. I will clarify my point for you. I said everyone is
 >entitled to an opinion. I'm not after censoring anyone but
 >everyone should expect to have to answer questions to back up
 >their research, whether pro or anti ET.

 >Can you honestly say it fair to let someone talk for two hours
 >about how we all descended from gold miners thousands of years
 >ago and not have the right to ask on what they base their
 >theory. I say let them talk, they are highly amusing.

 >Why censor these people, they make idiots of themselves anyway.
 >Before anyone challenges me on that comment, I am talking about
 >a very small minority that even the pro ET crowd find extreme.



I think you're trying to move the goalposts here - you said 'I
think we should not allow anyone to talk "rubbish" if they
cannot back up their claims'. My point was that there is little
evidence that is absolutely conclusive and inarguable in the
field, so for most cases, one man's interpretation is often as
good as another's.

Look at Roswell, Majestic-12, Area 51, Aurora and Flying
Triangles - the same evidence is being interpreted in
diametrically opposed ways, because there's so little that's
concrete. So your call to stop people talking rubbish can only
mean 'stop people saying things that I disagree with', because
what's rubbish to you is probably the gospel truth to someone
else.

I'd say that most of the arguments in the UFO field are verys
similar to arguments about the interpretation of the New
Testament that happen between the Protestant, Catholic and
Orthodox churches. I just think the UFO debates have more basis
in fact that the religious debates!

Anyway, you seem to have changed your mind slightly, in that you
now seem happy to let anyone talk, because they'll make fools of
themselves. I'd say that's everyones' inalienable right,
including me (and I think my appeal for reasoned debate, and the
reaction, showed I can do it with the best of them).

I'll go back to reading the fur fly over this month's hot feud -
we've had the Sheffield Incident (ha ha), I think it's time for
another one).

Martin Phillips






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   Aug > Aug 11

                    Re: UFOs Filmed Over English Channel

From: Jerry Anderson <jerry@uforesearch.freeserve.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 22:44:06 +0100
Fwd Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 20:36:55 -0400
Subject: Re: UFOs Filmed Over English Channel


 >Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 14:45:44 -0400
 >From: David Clarke <crazydiamonds@compuserve.com>
 >Subject: UFOs Filmed Over English Channel
 >To: UFO Updates <updates@globalserve.net>

 >Dear all,

 >I am in possession of a remarkable camcorder video film which
 >appears to show at least two, possibly three, unidentified
 >flying objects alongside a passenger jet over the English
 >Channel.

 >The video was taken by a Sheffield family of three who were
 >outbound to Tangiers, Morocco, from Birmingham City Airport, on
 >board an Air Morocco 737, several years ago.

 >The family were sitting in the front passenger seats of the
 >plane, as the couple's daughter is severely disabled. The
 >camcorder was pointing out of the cabin window backwards towards
 >the wings. Although nothing was seen at the time, when footage
 >of the flight was edited a week ago all the family noticed a
 >strange dark object which is clearly visible on the video
 >apparently hovering beyond the wing of the aircraft, which is
 >sharply visible against a blue sky.

 >Close examination of the video shows a second, and possibly a
 >third object closer to the wing.

 >The object which first draws attention appears to be ball-shaped
 >and grey in colour, and examination at Sheffield University has
 >identified other apparent "features" which may or may not be
 >significant.

 >The footage lasts two or three seconds, during which this
 >ball-shaped object appears to join the others before the camera
 >pans away inside the aircraft. Footage taken earlier and later
 >in the flight do not show any obvious feature on the aircraft
 >window or wing which could have been responsible.

 >The weather at the time is clear blue skies with light cumulus
 >clouds; and the aircraft was cruising between 33-35,000 feet
 >when the "UFOs" appear. A shot seconds earlier appears to show
 >one of the Channel Islands, possibly Guernsey, shortly before
 >the objects come into view.

 >Having examined the video I have unable to reach any conclusions
 >as to what is shown, but have considered the possibility of
 >meteorological balloons or optical illusions.

 >At the moment the family are trying to identify an exact time
 >and date when the video was taken to facilitate further
 >investigation. The family have offered the video for computer
 >enhancement and analysis as they are anxious to find an
 >explanation for what they filmed.

 >The footage is currently being copied for examination at two
 >university departments.

 >I am appealing to anyone who can offer, or suggest contacts for
 >further independent expert analysis to contact me by email.

 >No details of this incident have yet appeared in the Press.


Dear David, Errol and List,

The sighting (albeit delayed), reminds me of letter sent to the
'Fortean Times' (issue 87 June 1996 - pg. 51), where a Simon
Williams writes:

"On 16th February (1996), at about 1.45 pm I was travelling
with a group of friends on a Sealink ferry from Calais to Dover,
when a metallic disc-shaped object fell vertically from nowhere,
stopped at what was still a great height, and then moved off
towards France. Unfortunately, my camera was on the coach and I
was Unable to get it; but five other people on deck with me were
able to back up what I had seen".

Wouldn't it be a coincidence if he had seen a similar object on
the same day, only from sea level?

Keep us posted.

Best wishes,






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   Aug > Aug 11

                         1937 UFO Crash in Germany?

From: Keith Basterfield Network <tkbnetw@fan.net.au>
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 09:09:17 +1000
Fwd Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 20:45:04 -0400
Subject: 1937 UFO Crash in Germany?


In Search of information
___________________________________

Hi List members

Could anyone help me with "any information" regarding an alleged
1937 UFO crash in Germany. I'm interested in the slightest
rumors. If anyone has heard rumors or you can direct me where to
find  more information it would be very much appreciated.

Regards Diane Harrison
E-mail tkbnetw@fan.net.au
Co. Director The Australian UFO Research Network

_________________________________________
Also I've  found an old newspaper clipping from
the Telegraph Newspaper in Australia.
I thought you might like to read it.
______________________________________

The Telegraph Newspaper 7th July 1947

While the United States Military air craft hunted the skys  over
pacific coast areas today with out result, Flying Saucers  where
reported over Canada for the first time. Scores of residents of
Wallaceburg, in Southwestern Ontario, asserted that they saw  2
large formations of the illuminated  discs swung over a wide arc
in the sky on Saturday night.

In South Dakota a National guard pilot, already in the air, was
ordered by radio to run down a silvery disc with a short tail
which a Sioux Falls residents said he saw shoot across the sky
a few minutes previously.

The pilot flew in the direction of the reported disc but radio
back  that he could not find it.

The army air force has added jet planes to its force of standard
fighters which are standing by in the hope of chasing and
explaining  the mystery of flying saucers which have intrigued
the country for 12 days.

Mr David Lilienthal, chairman of The United States Atomic energy
commission, said the saucers had nothing to do with atomic
experiments.

The Army and the Navy also have entered positive Disclaimers.
_____________________________________________






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              'UFO Research List': An Open Letter to Nick Pope

From: James Easton <voyager@ukonline.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 02:04:23 +0100
Fwd Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 03:29:18 -0400
Subject: 'UFO Research List': An Open Letter to Nick Pope


From: James Easton <voyager@ukonline.co.uk>
To: UFORL <UFORL@listbot.com>
Subject: An Open Letter to Nick Pope
Date: Sat, 7 Aug 1999 03:34:31 +0100


Dear Nick,

In the July issue of 'NICK  POPE'S  WEIRD  WORLD', you wrote:

"Over the past few months I'd been becoming more  bullish in my
response to certain people within ufology who'd been sniping at
me over the years.  Nobody likes criticism, and I'd been getting
a fair bit - little of it constructive in nature.  If people
were criticising my views on, say, Roswell, then fine.  I wasn't
there, and so my view probably counts no more or no less than
anybody else who's followed the case with a reasonable degree of
interest.  But it rankled when outsiders who'd probably never
even visited MOD Main Building started casting doubts on my
knowledge about - and access to - government and military UFO
files.  I've worked for the MOD for over fourteen years now, and
three of those were spent researching and investigating UFO
sightings, alien abductions, crop circles, animal mutilations
and any other weird and wonderful reports that came my way".


I trust I'm not one of the aforementioned 'critics' and perhaps
you can help clear up some of the confusion which surrounds a
number of claims.

To recap; your appointment with the Ministry of Defence (MoD)
was as an Executive Officer. To clarify for the 'uninitiated'
(I'm a former Civil Servant), the standard grading hierarchy is
clerical assistant - clerical officer - executive officer -
higher executive officer - and upwards.

Although your affirmation clearly gives the impression of being
HM Government's full-time investigator of "UFO sightings, alien
abductions, crop circles, animal mutilations", etc., I
understand that was not the situation.

Weren't your duties varied and 'UFO etc. reports' only one
aspect? In possibly the first 'promotional' interview you gave,
to 'UFO Magazine' (UK) on 5 May, 1996, it was stated:

UFO Magazine: When did you join this office, and indeed, were
you aware of its function?

Nick Pope: I've been in the Ministry of Defence since 1985. We
are just 'posted around' every two or three years to acquire
experience. I had just finished various duties associated with
the Gulf War and it just so happened that there was a vacancy
which cropped-up. Also in this office was a chap I had worked
with quite closely with Gulf War duties and he offered me the
job. I was aware that UFO research was one of its functions.

UFO: Was this the reason you switched departments?

Nick Pope: I was certainly interested, it sounded fascinating,
but I was quite keen to get out of my old job. [End]

As you said, "UFO research was one of its functions".

Can you please clarify what the job title was and its other
functions?

What percentage of your appointment was actually spent on 'UFO
etc.' related matters?

Was it, for example, a situation where the 'UFO etc.' duties
took up, approximately, 75 percent of your time, 50 percent, or
did they only perhaps demand a few hours per week, maybe even,
over a period of three years, average a few hours each month?

It's obviously of interest to know how much emphasis our
government put on this and whether it continues to do so.


On the question of any 'cover-up', you helpfully confirmed and
have maintained this had no substance whatsoever. Typical of
your response was the one given to Michael Lindemann, editor of
'CNI News', on November 17, 1996, during a 'UFO conference' at
Blackpool.

Lindemann asked, "This seemingly irrational denial of
significant UFO events could be interpreted as evidence of a
deliberate cover-up. What are your views on that?".

To which you replied, "I found no evidence to support a cover-up
in Britain. I think, without trying to sound too arrogant, that
I would have gotten a few hints in three years if there had been
someone doing my job but on a covert basis, not least because
the one thing they would have needed beyond anything else was
access to the raw data of the witnesses, and never once in three
years had any witness complained that I had sent someone around
to the house".

 >From your experiences, the Ministry of Defence's opinion on the
subject was emphasised in the 'UFO Magazine' interview. Asked,
"One gets the impression that the MoD consider the UFO
phenomenon totally irrelevant?", you accepted, "That's correct".

Naturally, this included the 1980 'Rendlesham forest' case,
where it's now proven from the original witness testimonies I
obtained, that the 'UFO' sightings involved a two mile pursuit
of a light which turned out to be the Orfordness lighthouse
beacon.

Your assessment on the MoD's reaction to Col. Halt's 'UFO'
report was again perhaps best clarified in that pivotal 'UFO
Magazine' interview:

"My best assessment of what happened next is - absolutely
nothing! The report was written on the 13th January and when it
arrived at Whitehall, whoever was doing the job didn't have the
faintest idea what to do with it, probably took one look at it
and said, what am I supposed to do? I am afraid to say it simply
ended up in a file".

Also from that interview:

UFO Magazine: Was there a cover-up?

Nick Pope: No. Not in the MoD - I think the MoD's response was
just ineffective.

UFO Magazine: That's a very big statement?

Nick Pope: Yes, but if something of that magnitude was reported
and simply placed on file, then what else can you say? [End]

As you may know, there will be a book published on the
'Rendlesham' case next year, with the stated intention of
exposing a grandiose cover-up, witnessed threatened, etc.

We trust your 'inside knowledge' is a more reliable appraisal
and you can be called on to testify to same, although it has
been stated you will be writing the foreword to this book, which
seems difficult to equate. Does that imply you maybe didn't have
access to the 'secret' information after all, or is it simply
that any cover-up didn't involve the MoD?


One comment you made to 'UFO Magazine' was, "There is not some
great mysterious organisation which is actually getting on with
the bread and butter of investigation, whilst I sent out
standard letters".

In a later interview, given to Clas Svahn of UFO Sweden and
published in 'Narkontakt', you reportedly stated, "And I get the
impression that, too use a coin of phrase - the X-Files has been
closed down. They've gone back to the bad old days where they
just send out standard letters and I think the investigation
they do now is at absolute minimum".

If you were sending out standard letters, what had changed?

I'm sure you will agree that our Government's position on 'UFO
research' would benefit from overall clarification and
Secretariat(Air Staff)2a1a have been asked to comment on these
points, especially how much time has been and remains allocated
to, as you put it, "researching and investigating UFO sightings,
alien abductions, crop circles, animal mutilations and any other
weird and wonderful reports".


It would be remiss not to take this opportunity to attempt one
final elucidation. In the 'Narkontakt' article, it's noted:

"Nick Pope is now completing the manuscript of his next book.
The theme is 'abduction'.

And we have information that the crescendo of the book will be
Nick Pope's own abduction. The previous defence-expert suspects
that he as well as his girlfriend was taken aboard a spaceship
when the passed a car-toll some years ago".

The transcript of an on-line question and answer conference
dated 23 May 1998, records that that your response to the
question 'why did you think you had been abducted by aliens',
was, "I don't recall ever claiming that I had been!"

Apparently _someone_ claimed you had been and the story was
included in the draft manuscript for your 'alien abductions'
book.

As you can imagine, a number of people are confused by this
paradox.

Is there an emphatic denial that this story was ever in the
draft manuscript?


I trust this are all reasonable and relevant questions.

Your reply would be greatly appreciated and certainly not only
by myself.

Please feel free to reply directly.


Best wishes,

James Easton.
E-mail: voyager@ukonline.co.uk





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                      'Flying Pelicans on the Attack!'

From: James Easton <voyager@ukonline.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 02:21:17 +0100
Fwd Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 03:41:39 -0400
Subject: 'Flying Pelicans on the Attack!'


Some new material has come to light which has a direct relevance
on the Arnold case and the specularity of birds per se.

I quote:

"This was on the other side of the world - in Brisbane, state
capital of Queensland. I was in an office overlooking the city
(arguing, if I remember correctly, with a customs inspector
about import licenses) and it was late in the afternoon. The sun
was low on the horizon - and moving slowly above it from north
to south was a line of brilliant silver disks.

They looked like metallic mirrors, and they were oscillating or
flipflopping with a regular seesaw motion. Once again, I could
not guess their size or distance.; they were so bright and tiny
against the darkening sky that it was almost impossible to
decide their shape, but they gave the impression of being
ellipses. I don't mind admitting that in the few minutes before
they came closer I felt myself wondering if the Martian invasion
had started; this was the only time I have ever seen a fleet of
textbook flying saucers.

In this case, the explanation turned out to be something I
already knew - and didn't believe. Many UFO sightings (including
one that is the subject of a celebrated and authentic film) were
due, I'd read, to birds reflecting sunlight under unusual
conditions of illumination. This theory seemed so absurd that I
dismissed it contemptuously; but it is perfectly correct.

The lights I saw flipping across Brisbane were nothing more than
sea gulls, the undersurfaces of their wings acting as mirrors.

Though I have lived beside the sea for a quarter of my life and
am doing so now, this is the only time I have ever witnessed
this phenomenon, and I would never have credited it without the
evidence of my own eyes.

The effect of oscillating metallic disks was absolutely
realistic; it would have fooled anyone".

 >From 'Things in the Sky', a non-fiction essay by Arthur C.
Clarke, written in 1958.


I'd almost forgotten that I've witnessed the same phenomenon and
may even have mentioned it a couple of years back.

Looking out of the window, I noticed some brilliant 'lights'
circling about a mile away and around 200 feet. I presumed it
was a reflection from late afternoon sun on seagulls as I knew
they were frequent visitors to that location. It wasn't certain
though as the outline of birds couldn't be seen at all and I had
to use binoculars before confirming the explanation.

Consider the reflective capabilities of a glossy, all white (bar
the wingtips) bird with a ten foot wingspan. Under appropriate
conditions, could this act like a large mirror?

Yes, quite conceivably and this was what had been pointed out by
Michael Price at the beginning. Michael is an ornithologist with
experience of the Pacific North-west area and perhaps worth
reiterating his conclusions on the question - did Kenneth
Arnold's description of the objects indicate any Pacific North-
west bird as a distinct candidate:

"So, on to Mr. Arnold's description that started this whole damn
thing about UFO's (part of my misspent youth was spending a few
thousand hours as an  amateur astronomer and I never got to see
even one UFO that really baffled  me, he grumbled). Given the
location, 25 mi off Mt Rainier's glacial sides, ice would be a
great substitute reflector and would easily blast enough
sunlight back up onto birds' underwings to make them reflect
very brightly.

Just look at the excruciating whiteness of the underwings of an
adult white-headed gull such as a Herring or Glaucous-winged
flying over snow on a sunny winter day.

Given the time of year, and that, if Arnold *were* looking at
birds whether or not he knew it, what would they likely be?
Canada Geese come to mind immediately, most other large
waterfowl being in the North, and he mentions geese as a
possibility. But what would Canada geese be doing high up over
Mt Rainier in late June? Heading for a molting lake, probably.
Could they reflect that much light? Certainly, particularly if
over ice. How about gulls? Well, which gulls are likely then?
It's a little ways inland, so Glaucous-winged Gull isn't likely,
but California Gull would be.

The formation's possible: gulls may fly in ragged 'V's, but they
don't necessarily maintain uniformity in the vertical as they
might in the horizontal, and so gulls might fly in the formation
Arnold describes.

There's another possible candidate species in the area at that
time of year (sporadically) whose color, size, flight profile
and proclivity for formation flight at sometimes quite high
altitude would even more produce *every* detail of the
phenomenon which Arnold observed: a flock of non- or
failed-breeder southbound White Pelicans. They'd have been large
enough to visible for a good distance, they fly in formation,
and if the light were reflecting just right off a large nearby
glaciated peak, their comparatively vast white underwing area
would reflect a *ton* of light in exactly the pattern described
by Arnold.

I'd submit that the hypothesis of a small southbound flock of
failed- or non-breeder American White Pelicans observed by
someone unfamiliar with underwing reflectivity would provide the
same phenomena and be at least as good an alternative
possibility than seeing artefacts from another planet.

Darn it".


I could have written those same closing remarks.

Of course Arnold's sighting wasn't as a ground observer and if
birds were the source, any reflectivity wouldn't necessarily be
confined to the underwings.

I previously wrote:

"I would only add a mention of the National Geographical
article, 'Pelican Profiles', which I recently located in the
November 1943 issue and records:

'I recall the day in the early thirties when a companion and I,
sight-seeing among the bubbling mud geysers on the eastern side
of the [Salton] sea, observed a hundred white birds manoeuvring
majestically in the sky. They played follow the leader.

Then they soared into the blue until only the sun, glinting on
white feathers, flashed their location'.

As I've said, this is proof these birds were reflective from a
considerable distance, even 'out of sight'."

Clarke's experience is one of many which can further testify
that is correct.


I also previously noted:

"Bruce Maccabee, in his paper, 'The The Complete Sighting Report
of Kenneth Arnold.' states:

'It is important to notice how Arnold's attention was first
drawn to the presence of strange flying objects because his
initial observation rules out any explanation that is based on
things in the sky which are not shiny (reflective, like a
mirror) such as, for example, birds'."

I trust it is now proven that birds can be reflective, like a
mirror, and this equally applies when considering other 'UFO'
cases where that explanation may have been ruled out.

Although not a common occurrence, it's still a surprise, as
Clarke himself said:

"This theory seemed so absurd that I dismissed it
contemptuously..."

...I would never have credited it without the evidence of my own
eyes.

The effect of oscillating metallic disks was absolutely
realistic; it would have fooled anyone".


Perhaps coincidental, Clarke describes the birds as 'flipping'
and taken with the National Geographic article's narrative of
how White Pelicans 'flashed' their location, it's comparative to
Arnold's comments that the nine objects 'seemed to flip and
flash in the sun, just like a mirror", or, "I observed the
objects outlines plainly as they flipped and flashed in the
snow", or, "I watched them flip and flash in the sun".

We can read too much into semantics of course and it wouldn't
only be birds that could 'flip and flash in the sun, just like a
mirror'.

Conversely, the significant point now established is that this
description could apply to birds.


So there you go, Arthur C. Clarke, of all people, unknowingly
describing in 1958 what may have been related to an explanation
for the 'unidentified objects' sighting which gave rise to
'flying saucers' in the first place.

[Just a suggestion, please don't hit me...]


James.
E-mail: voyager@ukonline.co.uk







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   Aug > Aug 12

                 Black helicopters in Jane's Defence Weekly

From: Steven J. Dunn <SDunn@LOGICON.COM>
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 09:44:15 -0700
Fwd Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 09:28:27 -0400
Subject: Black helicopters in Jane's Defence Weekly


Dear List members:

There in an article in the 28 July 1999 issue of _Jane's Defence
Weekly_ that may be of interest to members of the list. It is
entitled, "The Disappearing Helicopter" and, in highly
non-ufologically-oriented style (as would be expected), deals
with the "black helicopter" phenomon.

Ex: "There is a persistent legend, fostered by occasional
eye-witness testimony, that the US government has developed a
helicopter so stealthy that part of its repertoire includes the
ability to run silently."

Groom Lake and tests in the SW US are also prominently
mentioned.

Regards,






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   Aug > Aug 12

                          Filer's Files #32 --1999

From: George A. Filer <Majorstar@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 21:42:32 EDT
Fwd Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 09:56:39 -0400
Subject: Filer's Files #32 --1999


Filer's Files #32 --1999,  MUFON Skywatch Investigations
George A. Filer,  Director, Mutual UFO Network Eastern
August 11, 1999,   Majorstar@aol.com  (609) 654-0020

Numerous reports of Flying Triangles are becoming common place.
This infers that either they belong to our government or
possibly alien forces.  The following Flying Triangle reports
may help provide significant evidence in our search for answers.

GEORGIA

Former Chief of Police Tom Sheets, the Georgia MUFON State
Director writes that he has information regarding the 'booms'
heard in West Georgia and Eastern Alabama on August 2, 1999.
This event has been heavily covered in all of the Atlanta and
Georgia news.  John Thompson of La Grange, a founding Board
Member for ISUR and former MUFON State Director, advised that
Georgia Emergency Management Agency (GEMA) had assigned a team
to investigate this event.  GEMA has also located a witness that
observed something coming down, with speculation about it being
a 'shooting star.'  GEMA has also stated that these
circumstances indicate a security or safety threat, hence the
investigative team.  Three witnesses from Chambers County
Alabama have come forward.  At 9:58 PM on Monday, August 2,
1999, there was a loud boom heard throughout the area around
Troup County and into Eastern Alabama.  There was a concurrent
interruption of satellite TV and some cable broadcasts, as well
as some power disruptions.  Dogs went wild, howling and seeking
cover, then everything became completely quiet.

About a minute after the boom, the three witnesses went outside
to look and listen and saw two huge 'V' shaped objects fly
directly over their home.  The craft were moving completely
silent at about 30 mph at an estimated 250 to 300 feet altitude.
They calculated the size of craft to be about 160 feet wide.
They saw 7 or 8 very bright, very big, (like blue-white halogen)
lights aligned along the surface.  The observation was about 5
minutes in duration, or until 5 jet fighters arrived on the
scene as if in pursuit.  At that point, a witness stated that
the two 'V' shaped craft split and went straight up, arching
apart at an incredible speed.  They left a bright streak as they
departed.  The streak estimated apparent size was about 3 feet
long if held at arm's length.  Local authorities have vouched
for the reliability of the primary witness in this case.
Furthermore, a spokesperson for the Troup County Georgia
Sheriff's Department has stated that they received a report from
another witness of seeing an unusual bright white light on
nearby West Point Lake.  This lake seems to be 'center point'
for anomalous events in the Troup area.  Thanks to John Thompson
and Tom Sheets, ISUR Board www.isur.com.

Editor's Note: These Flying Triangles may represent an advanced
antigravity propulsion system that affects electrical power and
television transmission.  Did they penetrate from space causing
the sonic booms?  Remember the F-117 Stealth fighter represents
20 year old technology and the Black Budget spends billions on
dollars annually, more than is spent on health and education.
We can speculate these craft were Senior Citizen (Program
Element 041316F) a tactical lift aircraft.  A vertical lift
aircraft could operate from Eglin Air Force Base and use low
level training routes over Heard County to train for troop
insertion and covert activity.  The craft deliberately operate
at low altitude in order to avoid radar detection.  The possible
intercept by jet aircraft infers that an exercise was taking
place or the jets were actually chasing alien UFOs away.


MASSACHUSETTS

WORCHESTER � On August 3, 1999, Brian Hennessy writes, "I saw
several objects in the night sky that were cigar shaped, silver
and with a metallic like substance to them."  Over the past few
weeks, I observed about seven of these objects in the evening
sky from 7:00 to 8:45 PM.  They always appear in the east and
head towards the north.  They are about 30 to 50 feet in length.
I'm attempting to use my camcorder and film them.  Thanks to
Brian Hennessy   bcnh63@cs.com


NEW JERSEY

  SEWELL -- I have believed in UFO's for some time, but have
never seen one.  On Saturday, July 17th, 1999, I think I may
have seen one.  It was about 10:00 PM, and  clear night. I was
throwing something into the trash out at the curb, when I turned
and saw something that looked like an airplane, but the lights
were formatted backwards.  There were three white lights, two in
the front, leading it, and one in the back as it flew from west
to east.   There was also a steady red light in the center,
which was not blinking, but glowing faintly.  There was a low
humming sound.  It was a common triangle shaped UFO. Thanks to:
Chris Augustin, augustin-chris@aramark.com, Dave Ledger
dledger@cableinet.co.uk

KYW Channel 3, Eye Witness News in Philadelphia announced the
landing of a UFO in New Jersey. It turned out to be a two small
meteorites that fit nicely in your hand.


MARYLAND

GERMANTOWN -- Dave age 19, an Assistant Laboratory Technician
writes that on August 5, 1999, "My girlfriend, my uncle and I
spotted an extremely bright light.  It gyrated and moved at
infrequent intervals, mostly left and right, but occasionally up
and down dramatically between 12:45 to 3:00 AM.  The object
seemed to alter its shape and tip from a flat position
(longitudinally) to its side (latitudinally).  The object also
altered its output of light at infrequent intervals.  It was
difficult to keep within the sights of our binoculars.  The
weather was clear and calm.  The UFO was sighted for three hours
and 45 minutes.  I heard a slight odd high pitched sound that
sounded as if something was rotating extremely quickly.  I heard
this once when the light came closer around 2:00 and stayed
until 3:00 AM.  The UFO hovered, maneuvered erratically around
the sky.  The height the UFO was about the altitude of other
planes.  There was no loss of time.  Thanks to Ben Field and
BUFOD.


FLORIDA

FORT MEYERS � On July 31, 1999, at 11:30 PM a young man and his
friend went out by the pool and noticed 3 blinking lights very
low on the horizon in a symmetrical line.  The objects changed
color from white to red to orange and back to white.  After
getting binoculars they saw the lights stop blinking and then
start again.  Sometimes two lights would blink in unison and
then stop.  The observers saw the bottom light come up to the
middle one and stay by it.  At one point they saw a fourth light
come up quickly from below and disappear back down again.  After
midnight at 12:25 the three lights formed a triangle, sometimes
blinking in unison with a fourth and fifth light coming from the
east.  It seemed to move east slightly, just above the trees.
DEERFIELD BEACH - On July 20, 1999, at 8:10 P.M. a woman driving
home from work saw a "large silver rod-shaped craft" at Military
Trail and S.W. 10th Street. Thanks to Mary Margaret Zimmer
mmz@gzinc.com Miami MUFON


OHIO

COSHOCTON - Jenny Herritt reports, "I just got back from Ohio
where I was investigating some strange occurrences.  Hawk and
Karen who live on the infamous Township Road 6, where there are
frequent strange sightings saw a triangle shaped UFO last April.
The craft hovered and slowly moved around the area for 15 to 20
minutes.  Then it seemed to descend below the tree line.  The
UFO was dark in color and had rapidly flashing bright lights.
The sighting lasted about five minutes.  Angular elevation was
45 degrees and object was seen to the west.  The region is
fairly remote and heavily forested.  Witness did not attempt to
follow the UFO to the apparent landing site.  Due to the heavy
cover they were not able to determine location of where the UFO
descended of if it did land. The UFO sighting was followed by
sightings of a large animal described as resembling a large bear
walking upright.  Numerous huge tracks and reported sightings of
this creature have been observed.  Thanks to Jenny Herritt at
LJenSilver, Hawk & Karen.


TEXAS

WICHITA FALLS � A witness who wishes to keep his name
confidential writes that on August 6, 1999, at 11:30 PM near or
at Sheppard Air Force Base a light shaped like a snake shot from
the ground up.  The snake was white in color, not real bright
but bright enough to see.  It rose to a few hundred feet, then
vanished.  This was not fireworks or lightning or for that
matter anything I've ever seen!  I was traveling south on the
freeway.  I was not yet in city lights.  It appeared in my
opinion to be some sort of man made laser, but lasers travel in
a straight line. It wasn't as bright as a laser would appear on
this dark road.  It looked like a weapons test of some sort.
Thanks to: Fallberg@webtv.net.  Editors Note: The 82nd Training
wing conducts courses in munitions, communications and
electronics at Sheppard AFB.  Some sort of training exercise may
have been conducted as the witness drove by the base.


WASHINGTON

OAKVILLE -- Sunny Barclift writes, "I appeared on the 'Unsolved
Mysteries' program in 1997 regarding the gelatinous goo that
fell over my mother's farm and surrounding area.  Around 8:00
PM, on the third day following the first fallout I witnessed a
very large dark charcoal gray triangular craft "floating" over
our neighbors house.  I say floating because it appeared to be
flying slower than the stall speed of a conventional aircraft.
It made absolutely no sound.  The most anomalous feature of the
craft was that it glowed all around the periphery a yellowish,
green neon-like glow. There were contoured areas present and
small rectangular "windows" from which emanated a soft diffused
yellow light. The undercarriage appeared as though it had been
molded.  This sighting occurred on August 10, 1994.  The craft
was approximately 80 ft by 100 ft.  It was at an altitude of
about 500 feet.  It traveled in the direction of it's point due
east and parallel to State Route 12 west. Thanks to Peter A.
Gersten  CAUS and Sunny Barclift (witness33@hotmail.com)


UNITED KINGDOM CROP CIRCLES

Cliff Capers reports that Joyce Murphy from 'Beyond Boundaries'
is currently in the Wiltshire, England investigating crop
circles.  The expedition is led by Ruben Uriarte, director of
Northern California MUFON.  Their helicopter flew over ten
recent formations on August 4, 1999.  Joyce says, "We went into
the East Kennet Long Barrow formation which was discovered
yesterday morning, our overflight being among the very first to
observe this new formation."  'West Kennet Long Barrow is one of
the largest Neolithic burial tombs in Britain, constructed in
3700 BC, and in continual use for well over 1000 years."  The
area is very close to the oldest mound in Europe, called Silbury
Hill, that has overlooked many fantastic formations in the past.
The next formation visited at ground level was Devil's Den which
appeared the 3rd week of July near another ancient site of
standing stones.  A very positive article appeared this morning
in the Gazette and Herald telling the story of Jane Ross's
vision of a soon to happen formation, which occurred a couple of
days later - The Circle of Life as she named it. Thanks to:
Joyce Murphy and Cliff Capers ccapers@swbell.
http://www.beyondboundaries.org


SCOTLAND

EDINBURGH - On July 27, 1999, the witness reports seeing a
strange fast moving bright white, blue and green light at 1:00
AM.  The light was in the west at an elevation of 45 degrees
moving left to right and then right to left.  The duration of
the sighting was one minute. Dave Ledger
UFOSCOT@cableinet.co.uk)


AUSTRALIA

RUSSEL ISLAND -- Barbara Griffin said: "I was fishing with my
daughter-in- law Margie on the boat jetty at 7:30 PM when I
noticed these very bright "brilliant" red balls of lights coming
towards us from Redland Bay.  I know planes and this was not
normal it was a triangle with 7 brilliant red pulsating lights.
This object moved very slowly "nothing like a plane" so slow and
there was no sound.  Margie saw it and stated, "My god Barb,
it's huge no! no! Babs it couldn't be? could it? is it a bloody
UFO?" Lets get out of here!"  I just sat there watching it while
Margie started running around collecting the fishing gear. "I
then shouted its okay its gone, Mags where did it go?  "Babs
that's really weird where did it go something that big can't
just vanish?  We took our fishing tackle and went home with a
real fishing tail to tell. ALICE SPRINGS, OUTBACK -- Desmond
Nelson aged 64 years states, " I was camping and I was doing
some star gazing at around 5.00 AM when I observed a dark oval
shaped shadow in the sky.  It was the size of a truck.  What
brought my attention to it was it blocked out the stars and when
it moved away you could see the stars again. The object had no
sound it moved at a medium speed it was 60 degrees to the
horizon.  There was also a brighter star like object flashing on
and off and moving around in a limited area in the sky, then
both objects just vanished.  Thanks to Diane Harrison Co.
Director AUFORN Australian Skywatch tkbnetw@fan.net.au


NEW JERSEY ABDUCTIONS WITH DERREL SIMS COMMENTS

Vincent Creevy writes that, "On June 11, 1998, a man I will call
'Rick' contacted me.  He knew that I have researched the
abduction phenomenon for many years, and we have been friends
for over six years.  He described strange red-brown stains he
and his wife "Pat" discovered on their hands when awakening two
days prior.  Rick has experienced unusual phenomena related to
UFOs.  Pat has been a witness to some of these experiences, and
has observed a UFO at close range.

DERREL SIMS COMMENTS ARE IN CAPITAL LETTERS

"CLOSENESS OFTEN INDICATES CONTACT OF SOME KIND."  Vince, "I
have no reason to doubt their veracity.  These are basically
stable people.  The stains were difficult to wash off, and had
no odor.  The stains remained on their hands until June 12."
SIMS,  "IN CASES I HAVE INVESTIGATED, THE STAIN MATERIAL IS
USUALLY ABDOMINAL TO PELVIC IN ITS LOCATION. IS IT POSSIBLE THEY
"TOUCHED THE AFFECTED AREAS WHILE WET?"  Vince, In trying to
explain the appearance of the stains, Pat said they reminded him
of staining caused by spilled iodine.  "THIS MAY BE AN ASTUTE
OBSERVATION.  IN THE CASES I HAVE WORKED ON, THE MATERIAL SEEMS
TO BE A SORT OF "BETADINE SOLUTION" LIKE WE USE IN OUR SURGICAL
REMOVALS OF ALLEGED IMPLANTS.  IF THIS IS CORRECT IT MAY
DESCRIBE A SURGICAL SETTING IN WHICH ONE OR MORE OF THESE FOLKS
MAY HAVE BEEN IN."  Vince, "The same day he called, at my
request both individuals scraped samples of the stained skin off
their hands, transferred the samples to waxed paper, and placed
that in the refrigerator."  SIMS, "IT MIGHT HAVE BEEN GOOD TO
PLACE ONE DRY, ONE IN FORMALIN, AND ONE IN WATER.  THE CELLS
BENEATH THE "COLORATION" MIGHT NEED TO BE REVIEWED AS WELL."

Vince, "Three days later I transferred the scrapings to white
paper in order to enhance the visibility of the samples and to
prevent contamination from the wax. Although the amount of
scrapings was small, they were distinctly dark in color.
Subsequently, with the help of Linda Howe, I was able to enlist
the services of a scientist at a midwest university.  He agreed
to run tests on the skin samples to determine the chemical
composition of the staining substance."  SIMS, "THIS IS WISE, BY
MY THINKING.  KNOWING WHAT I DO (NOW) I WOULD HAVE ALSO SENT
THIS TO (US) OR A MEDICAL LAB THAT MIGHT BE ABLE TO PURSUE THIS
IN ANOTHER VIEW.  SEPARATE SAMPLES WOULD BE VERY IMPORTANT AS
WELL.

Vince,  "On June 14, I forwarded the following items to the
scientist. The skin scrapings from Rick and Pat taken on June
11; Rick's written account of the events of the night of June 8,
1998, which is essentially a UFO Abduction experience.  Color
photocopies of two Polaroid photos taken of Rick's hands on the
morning of June 9.  There was a recurrence of the hand staining
on the night of June 29.  However, this time the stains only
occurred on Rick's hands.  Very clear photographs were taken.
An additional skin scraping was taken from the affected areas of
Rick's hands the next morning.  A portion of this skin sample
was sent to the scientist on July 9.  I have retained the
remaining portion.  On September 18 the results of the testing
were sent to me.  The scientist stated that he found it
difficult to draw any firm conclusion from his examination of
the June 6 samples.  However, the June 30 sample yielded a peak
of 6.997 on the TIC scale.  I was told this indicated an
"unknown" substance.  That is, the staining substance is not in
the vast catalog of known compounds against which the anomalous
substances were matched.  What does this mean?  It proves
nothing, except that the staining substance is very rare, so
rare that it does not exist in the matching catalog at the
university's laboratory.  But this is probably enough to rule
out simple fraud or mistake.  Both explanations would
necessarily involve a fairly commonly available compound, thus
one easily identifiable by the laboratory.  On the other hand,
we seem to have ruled out prosaic explanations for the stains.
This makes us take a bit more seriously the possibility that the
stains occurred in connection with the "abduction" events.  The
significance of the stains, and their exact chemical
composition, become extremely interesting and serious puzzles.
Since these tests were done, Rick has once again awakened with
stained hands.  No scrapings were taken.  Needless to say, Rick
and Pat are frustrated."

SIMS,  "IF THEY WOULD LIKE TO FILL OUT SOME QUESTIONNAIRES FOR
US, THEY MAY DO SO. THIS MIGHT HELP EXPLORE OTHER
POSSIBILITIES."  Vince,  "They have gone to extreme lengths to
discover what their experiences may represent for the world of
science.  And they have been very patient in their efforts.    I
am seeking recommendations for further research or additional
testing. All photographs and laboratory data will be furnished
to persons who have serious research proposals.

SIMS,  "IF VINCE WOULD BE INTERESTED WE WOULD LIKE TO TAKE A
LOOK AND SEE WHAT OUR TEAM CAN COME UP WITH.  TWO ADDITIONAL
QUESTIONS.  #1 HAVE EITHER OF THESE PERSONS, FOUND ANY OF THESE
STAINS ON THEIR UNDERWEAR OR ON ANY OTHER PLACE?  #2 HAVE EITHER
OF THESE PEOPLE BEEN CHECKED OUT WITH A BLACK LIGHT OR IR.
VIEWING?  IF IT IS NOT KNOWN HOW TO PERFORM THIS SIMPLE CHECK,
PLEASE INQUIRE.  I DISCOVERED THIS IN THE EARLY 90'S CONCERNING
ALLEGED ABDUCTEES AND THEIR EXPERIENCES.  QUERY; AT SOME POINT
WHEN ALL TESTING, EVALUATIONS, ETC, ARE FINALIZED, MEMORY
RETRIEVAL TECHNIQUES ON CONSCIOUS AND SUBCONSCIOUS LEVELS MIGHT
BE USEFUL TO SEE IF THE MEMORY OF "HOW" THE MATERIALS GOT THERE,
ARE CONSISTENT WITH THE PHYSICAL FINDINGS.  IF THIS IS DONE
CORRECTLY SOME REAL EVIDENCE MIGHT SURFACE AND GIVE CLEAR
INDICATIONS OF "MEMORY" VS. RECALL.   GEORGE  LET ME KNOW IF I
CAN HELP VINCE OR ADVISE YOU ON ANY OF YOUR OTHER CASES. HAPPY
TO COMMENT.  Thanks to Vince Creevy, Derrel Sims, Linda Howe,
and Bob Durant.

ROBERT SARBACHER LETTER AT AUCTION:  The Dr. Robert I. Sarbacher
letter to William S. Steinman, dated Nov. 29, 1983, is now on
the auction block at e Bay under item # 141895776.  It is listed
under Books: Non-Fiction: Paranormal.  This is the letter in
which scientist Dr. Robert I. Sarbacher, president of the
Washington Institute of Technology, admitted in writing, for the
first and only time, that the U.S. Government had Crashed &
Recovered UFO's and bodies in captivity at Wright Field.  This
letter is a major piece of UFO Evidence.  It goes to the highest
bidder and closes on Aug.14. Thanks to: William S. Steinman
wsteinmn@pe.net

CONGRATULATIONS  to Jennifer Todd and Michael Lamond on their
marriage at St Patrick's Church in Glen Cove, NY.  I hope they
are enjoying their honeymoon at Lake Como and Florence, Italy.
It was a wonderful wedding and reception.

JOE STEFULA -- Our prayers are with fine Investigator and
Researcher Joe Stefula who just had an operation at Debora Heart
Hospital in NJ.  He is in stable condition with a good prognosis
according to the Director of Public Relations, Kim Almon.

CIRAEP'S 3rd Philadelphia Phenomena Conference will take place
on August 20-22, 1999, at the Elkins Park Hospital 60 E.
Township Line Road, Elkins Park, PA.  Speakers include Steve
Bassett the world's only UFO lobbyist, and Nancy Talbot who
discusses what the crop circles are telling us.

U.S. GOVERNMENT UFO PROOF RELEASED: Audio tapes of a genuine UFO
Alert at Edwards Air Force base and studied by the Foreign
Technology Division at Wright Patterson Air Force Base, are now
available for distribution to the public.  Lunar Astronaut Dr.
Edgar Mitchell was at Edwards the night the UFO chase occurred.
The 6th person to walk on the moon said, "The night it happened
I investigated it myself and this was a real event."  Sam
Sherman's audio documentary tape called THE EDWARDS AIR FORCE
BASE ENCOUNTER on the night of October 7, 1965, uses the actual
voice recordings provided by the Air Force.  During this event
12 high tech luminous UFOs invade secure air space and came down
low over the runways at Edwards AFB.  Tower operator Sgt. Chuck
Sorrels spotted them and notified the Air Defense Command.  Sgt.
Sorrels is heard on the original tapes and in a new segment
where he verifies the event as it is heard on the archival
recordings.  The UFOs are described and a decision is made to
launch F-106 fighter interceptors.  You are there for an
important part of UFO history.  Hear it for yourself, it's the
best UFO tape ever made.  Tape cost is $14.95 each plus $2.00
for shipping -- total $16.95 -- you can send either personal
check or money order to: Independent International Films, Box
565, Dept. GF, Old Bridge, New Jersey 08857.

DERREL SIMS former CIA operative and trainer, master
hypnotherapist and hypnotic anesthesiologist, NLP Master, 4th
Degree Black Belt, firewalk trainer, handwriting analysts, and
abductee, will present for the first time in NYC, a week long
presentation on the abduction phenomena.  He will present
physical proof of the alien presence.  Monday, August 16th @
7:30pm Alien and Military Intelligence Cover-up As a former CIA
operative and trainer, Derrel Sims has a unique
perspectivintensity as you view the surgical removal of an
actual implant.  Experience the findings of Derrel's
medical/scientific team work.  Wednesday, August 18th, 7:30pm
Mass Abduction Presentation Derrel a hypnotic anesthesiologist
and full time UFO investigator, in a proactive move, created a
Manchurian candidate.  By giving the volunteer post hypnotic
commands to create a reaction from the alien presence, Sims hit
the Jackpot.  Amazing physical evidence will be shown of 8
persons in a mass abduction.  Thursday, August 19th, 7:30 PM
Handwriting and Symbol Analysis In England 180 people attended
this amazing workshop where all got to watch their
subconconscious draw realities on paper.  Derrel then shows you
how to evaluate your own and others handwriting.  Friday, August
20th, 7:30 PM The truth of what hypnosis can and cannot do and
how to tell if you are an alien abductee. This is a fascinating
ride into how one can possibly gain evidence of human/alien
contact.  Sims will use Infra red, Ultra violet and the visible
spectrum of light to prove your case. This investigator of 35
years, has found physical proof of abductions and will discuss
how you can do so as well!  All events are located at the Source
of Life, 22 W. 34th Street, 5th floor & cost is $25 @ the door
($20 with phone reservations; call 718-565-0852)  Derrel is also
available for Private sessions.

MUFON JOURNAL For more detailed investigative reports subscribe
by writing to 103 Oldtowne Road, Sequin, TX 78155-4099 or E-mail
Mufon@aol.com.  Filer's Files Copyright 1999 by George A. Filer,
all rights reserved.  Readers may post items from the Files on
their Websites provided that they credit the newsletter and its
editor by name and list the date of issue that the item
appeared.  Send your letters to me at Majorstar@aol.com.  If you
wish to keep your name confidential please so state. See Filers
Files at http://www.contrailconnection.com/njmufon/





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                      Re: C-E: Hubble Moon Photos Found

From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 01:11:19 EDT
Fwd Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 10:06:03 -0400
Subject: Re: C-E: Hubble Moon Photos Found


 >From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@connectmmic.net>
 >Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 19:35:32 -0700
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
 >Subject: Re: C-E: Hubble Moon Photos Found

 >Will a shadow 280,000 feet long show in a 280 feet resolution
 >frame if the shadow is 20 feet wide?

Dear Serge,

Hmm ... Well, maybe not.  I guess we wil have to wait for a closer
look.






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                        Re: Hubble Moon Photos Found

From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 01:01:23 EDT
Fwd Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 09:59:09 -0400
Subject: Re: Hubble Moon Photos Found


 >From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@aol.com>
 >Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 11:11:17 EDT
 >Fwd Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 22:21:49 -0400
 >Subject: Re: C-E: Hubble Moon Photos Found

<snip>

 >there would be no way of distinguishing it from
 >any other shadow, say from a large boulder.  What would be
 >needed is sufficient resolution to see actual features on a LEM.
 >That would require a near-orbiting space telescope a 100 times
 >bigger than Hubble.

As I recall, the LEM had about 10 foot high legs.  The bases of
the crafts should still be there.  A long rectangular shadow on
"stilts" might be one.

 >In any case, there would be no way of settling this dispute with
 >photos.  If NASA really did fake the moon landings, it would be
 >child's play for them to digitally doctor photos of the landing
 >sites to make it look like LEMs were really there.

What dispute?  Did I come in on something weird, here?  It might
actually have been easier to land on the Moon than to fake it
for 30 years.  I vote for the easiest answer.






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               Re: Research Proposal - Hypnotic Suggestibility

From: Tim D. Brigham <TBrigham@ksinc.net>
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 00:38:18 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 10:10:58 -0400
Subject: Re: Research Proposal - Hypnotic Suggestibility


 >From: Jenny Randles <nufon@currantbun.com>
 >To: <updates@globalserve.net>
 >Subject: Re: Research Proposal - Hypnotic Suggestibility
 >Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 15:42:58 +0100

 >Now I did not read what was actually a very sensible and
 >interesting experiment in this light. In my experience as a
 >researcher of abduction cases (the more detailed justification
 >is in my new book 'Aliens and Abductions' - which cross compares
 >cases from many different countries) several statistical results
 >stand out.

 >One of these is that witnesses are visually creative to a far
 >higher degree than a normal population sample. What it means, of
 >course, is another matter. But this emerged from my data and it
 >has been found in studies of US and Australian cases too. So I
 >think it is a reasonably valid proposition.

 >This is not the same as suggesting that abductees are thus
 >fantasy prone. This theory - whilst a reasonable one to propose
 >out of such data - has, in fact, not been verified in tests
 >carried out - as various papers presented at the MIT symposium
 >in l992 pretty firmly established.

 >However, the data itself as regards to a tendancy towards visual
 >creativity remains and requires a resolution. That is why the
 >kind of research being proposed could potentially offer
 >fascinating results. It is by these that we should judge the
 >work not by any presupposition of what theory might lie behind
 >the experiment or what outcome it might take us towards.

 >As I have noted before in this forum the fact that abductees are
 >visually creative is not in of itself incompatible with alien
 >contact. It may prove to be more compatible with some other
 >theory, of course, or ultimately it may not. But facts are facts
 >and evidential results from serious experiments are evidential
 >results. We need both to define workable theories - not merely
 >suppositions and guesses as to what is happening based on too
 >often subjective data - and we ought not to make up our minds as
 >to what the best theory is before we actually have such results.
 >I doubt that was what was suggested here, but lets just wait and
 >see what emerges.


Hellos,

Thanks to everyone who responded both on and off list. A few
folks have asked, in various ways, the question of why the focus
has shifted from the specific subject of alien abductions, to
hypnotic suggestibility and a _possible_ relation to paranormal
belief and fantasy proneness.

I suppose I should have clarified a bit when I sent the abstract
out, but to summarize - I wanted to aim for something which I
could actually begin to carry out. I do not have the time or
resources, or the 'pull' to get the resources, which would be
needed to look specifically for and examine people who have
reported abduction experiences.

Someday, this is something I would like to do, but it simply is
not possible at this point, unless someone with an interest and
the money to back it wants to see the idea further examined.

Also, the proposal has to go thru certain people and be examined
before I get an oppurtunity to use the lab and facilities I
mentioned to gather the EEG data.

This is a lab with a half million dollars worth of equipment and
many people working on varied topics in cognitive and biological
psychology. If I jumped in immediately with something "far out,"
or at least totally unrelated to the interests of the guys in
charge, in my current position, I had little chance of getting
any of the support that I would need to get things started.

The original plan was to have experiencers evaluate ambiguous
stimuli while EEG data was gathered, similar, I think, to what
(Dr!) Kevin Randle did for his dissertation. This data was going
to be compared to controls and examined to see if differences
exist in how experiencers evaluate ambiguous stimuli- shapes,
images, lights, whatever.

The other obstacle I could not see any way of working around (at
this point) was how to select who is most likely an 'actual
experiencer.' If the causes of abduction reports are varied (as
many folks suspect), it seems that a _very_ large sample would
be required to be able search for patterns and avoid various
masking and confounding variables.

I honestly do not know if fantasy proneness or suggestibility
relates to UFO abduction reports. That's why I want to do a
study. A hypothesis had to be written, and I went with what I
suspected: that of experiencers, a much higher percentage than
of 'controls' will be suggestible or possibly fantasy prone. Not
all. But enough so that analysis finds a pattern and gives us
some data to work with. Biological correlates of cognitive
differences would be intriguing and amazing data to find, so I
decided to look for it.

An acquaintance on another list brought up the subject of
causation, as did Jenny. We can not infer that because people
are creative, suggestible, or prone to dissociative states, that
these factors cause paranormal reports. But if they are
correlated, we perhaps may have at least narrowed the scope of
what areas we should look at, and further explore. Rather than
fantasy prone personality, mayhaps we will find a "susceptible
to parapsychological phenomena" personality, and maybe we won't.
It is simply too early to say, but I don't think that means that
we should just give up on objective studies of the subject.

Best,

Tim

)+(
TBrigham@ksinc.net
http://zap.to/DevilsAdvocate  The Devil's Advocate
http://zap.to/MindPhuck  Operation MindPhuck
"Better to go hungry than to feast on lies."





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                                     Re:

From: Sue Strickland <strick@H2Net.net>
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 23:44:38 -0600
Fwd Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 10:15:22 -0400
Subject: Re:


 >Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 15:03:39 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time)
 >From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@YorkU.CA>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
 >Subject: Re: Robert Sarbacher Letter At Auction Now

 >>From: William Steinman <wsteinmn@pe.net>
 >>To: <updates@globalserve.net>
 >>Subject: Robert Sarbacher Letter At Auction Now
 >>Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 07:02:34 -0700







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               Re: Research Proposal - Hypnotic Suggestibility

From: joel henry <jhenry@visi.com>
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 09:14:34 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 08:08:39 -0400
Subject: Re: Research Proposal - Hypnotic Suggestibility


 >From: Tim D. Brigham <TBrigham@ksinc.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
 >Subject: Re: Research Proposal - Hypnotic Suggestibility
 >Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 13:03:21 -0500

 >>Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 12:11:46 -0500
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
 >>From: Joel Henry <jhenry@visi.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Research Proposal - Hypnotic Suggestibility

 >>Throwing around generalisations about hypnotism and bad
 >>mouthing the hypnotists without first knowing the processes
 >>that were used and checking for mistakes, etc. by reviewing
 >>tapes of the regressions is a serious act of prejudice.
 >>We don't need knee-jerk criticism of things based on no
 >>solid facts.

 >>If, after careful examination of the regression, regressor,
 >>methods used, and prescreening process, the case appears to be
 >>poorly handled, then it can be labelled as such and set aside
 >>as non-useable in further study and investigation. I don't see
 >>this being done by ANY naysayers.

 >>Joel Henry

 >Speaking of facts, weren't you all the ones who, a couple of
 >years ago, had decided to perform some sort of massive project
 >to get "independent verification" of UFO abductions? That one
 >oddly died out, to my knowledge....

No it hasn't. We have everything ready and when the right
abductee (current occurances) comes along we will monitor. It's
very hard to predict when someone will get abducted.

Joel Henry
Minnesota MUFON

-------------------------------------------------------------------
Minnesota MUFON Field Investigator, Minnesota MUFON Journal Editor,
Minnesota MUFON Webmaster
Minnesota MUFON Web Page: http://www.visi.com/~jhenry/index.html





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                    Re: UFO Video Capture Pics (May '99)

From: Robert Moore <ENGIMA9@compuserve.com>
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 15:03:25 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 08:18:02 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO Video Capture Pics (May '99)


 >From: Ben Field <ben@abcfield.force9.co.uk>
 >Subject: UFO Video Capture Pics (May '99)
 >Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 21:49:19 +0100
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>

 >Dear List

 >I received a video from a couple in the UK that captured a UFO
 >while they were on holiday, attached to this email are a few
 >images captured from the video. My opinion is that it looks
 >like an advertising "blimp", but I  am hoping some other people
 >may be able to tell me if they have seen anything similar. The
 >UFO moved fairly slowly from right to left.

 >Location and dates:
 >Day sighting took place: Saturday   01  May   1999
 >Time sighting took place: 8.00/9.00approx am/pm: PM

 >Description of area where sighting took place: Country. By Motor
 >Museum. Caravan Site at Stanmore Hall, Bridgenorth Shropshire.
 >Nearest town: Bridgenorth    Country: Shropshire

Dear List,

The form depicted in the various video captures looks very
similar - in general shape, proportions and hue - to the "Virgin
Airship" (named after the British-based large aircraft, food
and entertainment corporation owned by English businessman
Richard Branson).

This airship, with it's distinctive floodlit/luminated gasbag,
has been the cause of numerous sightings throughout the U.K
during the 1990's.

The reported slow motion is also consistant with the image shown
in these video captures being an advertising airship (either the
Virgin one or another very like it).


Robert Moore,
IUN.





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                       Re: 1937 UFO Crash in Germany?

From: Werner Walter <113236.1604@compuserve.com>
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 17:05:05 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 08:27:06 -0400
Subject: Re: 1937 UFO Crash in Germany?


 >From: Keith Basterfield Network <tkbnetw@fan.net.au>
 >To: UFO UpDates <updates@globalserve.net>
 >Subject: 1937 UFO Crash in Germany?
 >Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 09:09:17 +1000


Hi Diane and Listmembers,

No information about a UFO-crash 1937 in Germany in my files.


Werner Walter





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                    Re: 'Flying Pelicans on the Attack!'

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 99 08:40:57 PDT
Fwd Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 08:06:18 -0400
Subject: Re: 'Flying Pelicans on the Attack!'


 >From: James Easton <voyager@ukonline.co.uk>
 >To: UFO UpDates <updates@globalserve.net>
 >Subject: 'Flying Pelicans on the Attack!'
 >Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 02:21:17 +0100

 >Some new material has come to light which has a direct relevance
 >on the Arnold case and the specularity of birds per se.

 >"This was on the other side of the world - in Brisbane, state
 >capital of Queensland. I was in an office overlooking the city
 >(arguing, if I remember correctly, with a customs inspector
 >about import licenses) and it was late in the afternoon. The sun
 >was low on the horizon - and moving slowly above it from north
 >to south was a line of brilliant silver disks.

 >They looked like metallic mirrors, and they were oscillating or
 >flipflopping with a regular seesaw motion. Once again, I could
 >not guess their size or distance.; they were so bright and tiny
 >against the darkening sky that it was almost impossible to
 >decide their shape, but they gave the impression of being
 >ellipses. I don't mind admitting that in the few minutes before
 >they came closer I felt myself wondering if the Martian invasion
 >had started; this was the only time I have ever seen a fleet of
 >textbook flying saucers.

 >In this case, the explanation turned out to be something I
 >already knew - and didn't believe. Many UFO sightings (including
 >one that is the subject of a celebrated and authentic film) were
 >due, I'd read, to birds reflecting sunlight under unusual
 >conditions of illumination. This theory seemed so absurd that I
 >dismissed it contemptuously; but it is perfectly correct.

 >The lights I saw flipping across Brisbane were nothing more than
 >sea gulls, the undersurfaces of their wings acting as mirrors.

 >Though I have lived beside the sea for a quarter of my life and
 >am doing so now, this is the only time I have ever witnessed
 >this phenomenon, and I would never have credited it without the
 >evidence of my own eyes.

 >The effect of oscillating metallic disks was absolutely
 >realistic; it would have fooled anyone".

 > >From 'Things in the Sky', a non-fiction essay by Arthur C.
 >Clarke, written in 1958.

Ever noticed that pelicanists always deem "anecdotal testimony"
worthless, except, of course, when -- as here -- it suits their
purposes?  A yarn like the above also suits the severely
UFOphobic Clarke's purposes and therefore should be read with
all appropriate skepticism. It's another of those anecdotes in
the grand tradition of pelicanist yarn-spinning (Menzel in
particular was skilled at the dropping of the convenient
anecdote)  -- i.e., "I don't believe in UFOs because I once saw
one and it turned out to be" fill in the blank.  Clarke may or
may not have invented the story out of whole cloth, but at the
very least  we may reasonably suspect that there is a certain
amount of, er, exaggeration in it.

Jerry Clark






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                      Re: C-E: Hubble Moon Photos Found

From: Joachim Koch <AchimKoch@compuserve.com>
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 17:41:08 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 09:53:08 -0400
Subject: Re: C-E: Hubble Moon Photos Found


 >From: Brian Straight <brians@mdbs.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
 >Subject: Re: C-E: Hubble Moon Photos Found
 >Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 10:33:20 -0500

<snip>

 >Those who would argue that the moon landings never took place
 >should study the real evidence--not the nonsense promulgated by
 >the conspiracy web sites.

 >Brian

Hello,

I've just returned from a trip to Wiltshire, UK, and found that
you  are discussing the probability that the moonlandings are
faked.

Does anybody here know the book "Dark Moon - NASA and the
Whistleblowers"? I would be very interested to hear comments
from those here in this list who are well known as photographic
experts such as Bruce et.al. about what they think  about the
evidence these authors have presented that there are faults in
the NASA moon photographs such as different angles of shadows of
objects, varying shadow lengths, astronauts filled in with light
on their shadow side, crosshairs  b  e  h  i  n  d  objects and
so on ?

One quote from page 32 of that book (I do not advertise here
but I think this is a very considerable source of information):

"In an attempt to disprove our own additional lighting
hypothesis, Quantec Image Processing in the UK carried out a
series of laboratory tests on a number of  NASA photographs from
'Apollo 11'. David Groves PhD who founded Quantec is more than
adequately qualified to undertake such a project. He has a BSc
(Hons) Class 1 in Applied Physics and his PhD was in Holographic
Computer Measurement. He is also a Chartered Physicist and a
Member of the Institution of Physics. Initially David Groves was
determined to disprove our theories."

"When they first approached us, "he said," I thought 'here we
go, a bunch of people who have misunderstood the nature of these
images'. But as a professional in image processing, I was
surprised to find that these pictures are full of contradictions
and inconstencies."

The "contradictions and inconstencies" are presented in detail -
too much evidence for  another mere conspiracy theory.

Please comment!

Kindest regards

Joachim Koch

http://www.ufos.de





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                    Re: 'Flying Pelicans on the Attack!'

From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@YorkU.CA>
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 17:57:37 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time)
Fwd Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 10:05:02 -0400
Subject: Re: 'Flying Pelicans on the Attack!'


 >From: James Easton <voyager@ukonline.co.uk>
 >To: UFO UpDates <updates@globalserve.net>
 >Subject: 'Flying Pelicans on the Attack!'
 >Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 02:21:17 +0100

<snip>

 >"I would only add a mention of the National Geographical
 >article, 'Pelican Profiles', which I recently located in the
 >November 1943 issue and records:

 >'I recall the day in the early thirties when a companion and I,
 >sight-seeing among the bubbling mud geysers on the eastern side
 >of the [Salton] sea, observed a hundred white birds manoeuvring
 >majestically in the sky. They played follow the leader.

 >Then they soared into the blue until only the sun, glinting on
 >white feathers, flashed their location'.

 >As I've said, this is proof these birds were reflective from a
 >considerable distance, even 'out of sight'."

<snip>

On several occasions I have observed white point-like objects
circling in the blue sky overhead.  One time it was after I put
down Leonard Stringfield's latest UFO crash monograph and looked
up while I was laying flat on a lawn chair in my backyard.  It
was easy to convince myself that these were distant UFOs, visible
by reflected sunlight.  Unlike the Arnold sighting, no shape or
even changing brightness was noted for these point-like objects
which suggested that they were highly symmetrical UFOs or very
distant birds (I concluded the latter was correct from the way
they were moving).

Yes, birds such as seagulls and pelicans do reflect sunlight, as
all birds do, but they do not reflect more sunlight or appear
brighter when they are much further away, even 'out of sight'.
Since my circling objects were not as bright as sunlight
reflecting off polished metallic surfaces such as airplanes, I
concluded they were in fact birds (probably seagulls since I
lived within a few miles of Lake Ontario).

When the sun is very low in the sky or has just set, high flying
birds will still be noticed in the darker sky since the sun can
still see them.  Although these birds will appear more luminous
in a darker sky, they will not actually be brighter.  During a
visit to Athens many years ago I was impressed to see a V-shaped
formation of bright point-like objects moving slowly high in the
sky at dusk.  Although I could convince myself that these too
were UFOs (and they could have been), I concluded they were just
high flying migrating birds.

 >I trust it is now proven that birds can be reflective, like a
 >mirror, and this equally applies when considering other 'UFO'
 >cases where that explanation may have been ruled out.

<snip>

The amount of light reflected off a mirror (even a tarnished
one) is very much different to the amount of light reflected off
birds, including white ones.  I think experienced pilots would
easily distinguish between a distant silvery coloured airplane
common in the 1940's or a UFO and white birds closer by from the
amount of light reflected off them.

Years ago on one of my many trips by car on the highway between
Ottawa and Toronto I saw a very large dark elliptical shaped
well defined object in the distant daylight sky which changed
its shape slowly with time.  Driving closer to it, this single
object resolved into literally thousands of small black birds
which were flying closely together as if they had one mind.
Since there are many airports in the area, I wondered if any of
them picked up a strong radar return that indicated there was a
large slow moving object or UFO was in the area.

Although I have initially mistaken some birds for UFOs,I still
feel that what Arnold saw and described can better be explained
as some unknown aircraft or UFOs rather than large white birds
such as pelicans.

Nick Balaskas






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   Aug > Aug 13

                          And Still They Come.....

From: Jerry Anderson <jerry@uforesearch.freeserve.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 23:33:48 +0100
Fwd Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 10:10:39 -0400
Subject: And Still They Come.....


Dear Errol and List,

Here in the South East of England in the county of Kent, on the
night of Sunday 1st August 1999, there was a sighting involving
lots of witnesses, probably around 50 - 60.

All these witnesses live in an area called Ayelsham, about 10
miles from the port of Dover.

The spectacle was videoed by at least one person (hurrah!), who
recorded for several minutes.

When I first saw the footage, it put me in mind of the video
sequences from Mexico showing multiple shiny discs/spheres.

Indeed, there are many of these objects clearly visible on the
Ayelsham video, which also shows an aircraft (anti-collision
lights etc.), passing underneath them, indicating that the
objects were at a very high altitude. The eyewitnesses claim
that all participants in this 'Armada' were multi-coloured and
reflective. The footage (taken in the dark with a fair amount of
light pollution), shows only silvery coloured objects in no
discernible pattern, crossing from south to north in a slow
procession, although there were two other larger objects
trailing behind and seemed to accelerate and catch up with the
main group.

The next day (Monday), the local TV station showed the tape and
interviewed author Timothy Good and a meteorologist (sorry,
can't remember his name at the mo), in the studio.

Tim said that he was in no doubt that the objects were nothing
more than helium filled metallic coloured balloons. The
meteorologist said that in his opinion, the sighting was not
caused by any atmospheric condition with which he was familiar.

As is usually the way with the media, they left the story
'hanging', inviting the public to phone-in with their
explanations.

When I first viewed the footage, I was inclined to go with the
'metallic balloon' theory, but when the two larger objects
increased speed to join the others, I had second thoughts.

If it were simply the wind that had blown them, wouldn't it have
affected the main cluster?

The weather conditions were excellent, and as far as I can tell,
there was no wind (I live a mile and a half from the scene).

There were, however, balloons let off from Maidstone in Kent
that day (45 miles away), in aid of Cancer Research. These were
metallic and helium filled.

I find it difficult to believe that 60 - 70 balloons could stay
together over that kind of distance, all at the same height
(more or less), and still manage to reflect the lights of a
small village many thousands of feet below at such a magnitude.

Comments please folks; I'm relying on you!

Best wishes,

Jerry Anderson





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               Re: Research Proposal - Hypnotic Suggestibility

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 20:09:35 EDT
Fwd Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 10:14:45 -0400
Subject: Re: Research Proposal - Hypnotic Suggestibility


 >From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>>
 >Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 15:43:13 EDT
 >Subject: Re: Research Proposal - Hypnotic Suggestibility
 >To: updates@globalserve.net

 >>Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 12:11:46 -0500
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
 >>From: Joel Henry <jhenry@visi.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Research Proposal - Hypnotic Suggestibility

 >>>Date: Mon, 09 Aug 1999 23:40:26 -0600
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
 >>>From: Bobbie Felder <jilain@plinet.com>
 >>>Subject: Re: Research Proposal - Hypnotic Suggestibility

 >>>>From: Tim D. Brigham <TBrigham@ksinc.net>
 >>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
 >>>>Subject: Research Proposal - Hypnotic Suggestibility
 >>>>Date: Sat, 7 Aug 1999 23:39:00 -0500

 >>>>Subject: Research Proposal - Hypnotic Suggestibility, Event
 >>>>Related Brain Potentials, and Paranormal Experiences

 >>><snip>

 >>>>The focus has shifted to examine the theoretical "fantasy
 >>>>prone personality," paranormal belief and experiences,

 >>>Why?

 >>The problem here is the ASSumption that all abductees are
 >>fantasy prone individuals who are also firmly entrenched in
 >>certain paranormal, etc. belief systems. This is simpy not
 >>true and very few poeple actually check to see if the
 >>abductee has already been checked out for these features.
 >>This is part of the psychological screening process which
 >>needs to be done even before the hypnotic regression occurs
 >>and is the deciding element if the regression should even
 >>bother to be done.

 >The real problem here is not the abductee and his or her
 >belief structure, but that of the researcher conducting the
 >investigation. No one has really looked into that until we
 >did it in The Abduction Enigma.

Another bone in the soup, eh? Where's the beef? To add
another element into the equation may not be so bad. However
I would like to point to the words used. Words are really
terrific little tools. They can be used to attempt to make the
point intended to be made not by logic and reason, but by
marketing the point with the words.... Confused?

Let me elaborate...

"The _real_ problem.." Oh good, now we all know the real
problem. All other problems must therefore be fake. Thanks!

And then came the following....

" ... real problem here is not the abductee ... but the
researcher conducting the investigation. No one has really
looked into that until we did it in The Abduction Enigma... "

Oy! Do you mean that until you guys wrote your book, no one, you
mean _NO ONE_ really looked into the researcher conducting the
investigation? Holy cow! Well, gee, thanks a whole bunch, guys!
Somebody oughta right a wrong here.

 >What we found was that
 >most of the abductees were sincere and honest people who
 >had some kind of unusual experience or who believed they
 >had. It was the researcher who hung the label on it,
 >injecting his or her own beliefs into the situation. He who
 >shall remain nameless lost his license not only for hot
 >tubing but for implanting his beliefs on his clients. Edith
 >Fiore told her patiences, when nothing appeared, "To make
 >it up."

Guilt of all the researchers by association (yours) with some
who may not have done it properly. Good thinking. Make that bad
logic.

 >And before we hear, once again that Fiore is not accepted by the
 >"mainstream" I might point out that she has been endorsed by one
 >half of the partnership that created ACCET to teach mental
 >health professionals how to deal with those who believed they
 >have been abducted.

Perhaps you should sue her for misconduct?

 >>Each regression case should be qualified as to accuracy,
 >>usefullness, and competence by checking on whether and to
 >>what extent the abductee in question has been checked out
 >>beforehand and by whom.

 >And shouldn't the person conducting the regression also be
 >checked out. I might add here that in the experiment conducted
 >using chemical regression that no abduction memory surfaced,
 >although such memories were recovered under hypnotic regression.


Maybe that has something to do with the manner in which the
memory was planted and/or erased. Face it, sirs, you don't have
the answers, and so to imply that you have uncovered the _real_
problem is another attempted crime perpetrated on the very
people whom you seek to convince.

Notice how I get when people use that series of words... "The
Real Truth... We Discovered It, Too!" Horse hockey. Peddle
that tripe to someone who'll read it. Gesundt don't do dat!

 >KRandle, Ph.D.

Jim Mortellaro, Ph.D., MBA, MOUSE.

I got more letters than you do. I must, as a consequence, be
smarter. Eh? Not. Just more vulnerable to culpable
misstatements by those claiming to have the Motts. In case you
are not aware, Motts makes juice.






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   Aug > Aug 13

               Re: Black helicopters in Jane's Defence Weekly

From: Josh Goldstein <clearlt@pacbell.net>
Date: Fri, 31 Aug 1956 10:29:49 +0000
Fwd Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 10:19:40 -0400
Subject: Re: Black helicopters in Jane's Defence Weekly


 >Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 09:44:15 -0700
 >From: Steven J. Dunn <SDunn@LOGICON.COM>
 >Subject: Black helicopters in Jane's Defence Weekly
 >To: UFO Updates <updates@globalserve.net>,

 >Dear List members:

 >There in an article in the 28 July 1999 issue of _Jane's Defence
 >Weekly_ that may be of interest to members of the list. It is
 >entitled, "The Disappearing Helicopter" and, in highly
 >non-ufologically-oriented style (as would be expected), deals
 >with the "black helicopter" phenomon.

 >Ex: "There is a persistent legend, fostered by occasional
 >eye-witness testimony, that the US government has developed a
 >helicopter so stealthy that part of its repertoire includes the
 >ability to run silently."

 >Groom Lake and tests in the SW US are also prominently
 >mentioned.



This is most interesting. I'll have to check out that issue of
Jane's. I have been aware of black helicopter reports for many
years. I have seen reports of "silent running". As a former Huey
(UH-1) pilot (175th Assault Helicopter Company, "The Outlaws") I
flew the choppers with the loudest flapping blades. I can't
imagine what rotor blage design or other technology would create
a silent helicopter. Does anyone out there in Updates universe
have any ideas?

Josh





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   Aug > Aug 13

               Re: Research Proposal - Hypnotic Suggestibility

From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 10:11:38 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 10:23:12 -0400
Subject: Re: Research Proposal - Hypnotic Suggestibility

 >Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 09:14:34 -0500
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
 >From: joel henry <jhenry@visi.com>
 >Subject: Re: Research Proposal - Hypnotic Suggestibility

 >>From: Tim D. Brigham <TBrigham@ksinc.net>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Research Proposal - Hypnotic Suggestibility
 >>Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 13:03:21 -0500

<snip>

 >>Speaking of facts, weren't you all the ones who, a couple of
 >>years ago, had decided to perform some sort of massive project
 >>to get "independent verification" of UFO abductions? That one
 >>oddly died out, to my knowledge....

 >No it hasn't. We have everything ready and when the right
 >abductee (current occurances) comes along we will monitor. It's
 >very hard to predict when someone will get abducted.

 >Joel Henry
 >Minnesota MUFON

I would also point out that there is a project that has been
underway for the past several years known as the "Abduction
Monitorring Project", which is being coordinated by the UFO
Coalition.  This is not a "sleep monitorring" effort, per se,
but is attempting to monitor the area surrounding the "abductee"
for changes.  Details are being kept under wraps to keep this
research from becoming tainted, and will involve test subjects
in several locations around the U.S.

Additional study in this area is certainly needed, but I
wouldn't assume that just because there's a lack of Internet
publicity that there isn't any good research being performed.






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   Aug > Aug 13

               Re: Research Proposal - Hypnotic Suggestibility

From: Jenny Randles <nufon@currantbun.com>
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 15:24:31 +0100
Fwd Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 16:10:09 -0400
Subject: Re: Research Proposal - Hypnotic Suggestibility


 >From: Tim D. Brigham <TBrigham@ksinc.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
 >Subject: Re: Research Proposal - Hypnotic Suggestibility
 >Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 00:38:18 -0500

 >>From: Jenny Randles <nufon@currantbun.com>
 >>To: <updates@globalserve.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Research Proposal - Hypnotic Suggestibility
 >>Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 15:42:58 +0100

 >Hellos,


 >I suppose I should have clarified a bit when I sent the abstract
 >out, but to summarize - I wanted to aim for something which I
 >could actually begin to carry out. I do not have the time or
 >resources, or the 'pull' to get the resources, which would be
 >needed to look specifically for and examine people who have
 >reported abduction experiences.

 >I honestly do not know if fantasy proneness or suggestibility
 >relates to UFO abduction reports. That's why I want to do a
 >study. A hypothesis had to be written, and I went with what I
 >suspected: that of experiencers, a much higher percentage than
 >of 'controls' will be suggestible or possibly fantasy prone. Not
 >all. But enough so that analysis finds a pattern and gives us
 >some data to work with. Biological correlates of cognitive
 >differences would be intriguing and amazing data to find, so I
 >decided to look for it.

 >An acquaintance on another list brought up the subject of
 >causation, as did Jenny. We can not infer that because people
 >are creative, suggestible, or prone to dissociative states, that
 >these factors cause paranormal reports. But if they are
 >correlated, we perhaps may have at least narrowed the scope of
 >what areas we should look at, and further explore. Rather than
 >fantasy prone personality, mayhaps we will find a "susceptible
 >to parapsychological phenomena" personality, and maybe we won't.
 >It is simply too early to say, but I don't think that means that
 >we should just give up on objective studies of the subject.



Hi,

I think you will find - as I have - that there is what we might
term an 'abduction prone personality' - not an FPP as such.
Indeed focusing too much on fanrasy proneness is going to be a
danger. It will alienate abductees (sorry about the pun but it
will!) because they will connect it with an accusation that
their frighteningly real experience is an imaginary one. It will
head in the right direction but veer off too far into territory
already established not to be the basis of a CE 4 case.

The major clues that distinguish such people in my experience
as abduction prone - not fantasy prone - and which statistical
results have borne out by studies in the US, Austria and
Australia to my knowledge - are as follows:

Sex: Higher number of females than male (about 2 to 1 in my
experience)

Age: Over three quarters of witnesses in the 21 - 30 age range.

Psychic track record: At least 50% report two or more other
psychic phenomena beyond abductions in their lives.

Early life recall: Many abductees spontaneously describe events
in their lives prior to the age of one, whereas very few non
abductees can do so.

Imaginary playmates: (As yet unquantified by me) but a recurrent
pattern in my cases where abductees 'played with' or
'communicated' with unseen presences in childhood.

Psychic toys: One in four abductees spontaneously describe such
things - balls of light seen in the bedroom between the ages 2 -
8 and which 'play' with them.

Visually creativity: One of the most marked features but harder
to quantify. Abductees clearly have an above average tendancy
towards the ability to visualise and manipulate images in a
creative way (sometimes expressed more obviously than others via
art wirk, poetry, etc)

If you can determine ways to incorporate such findings into your
studies this will provide useful data. Together a scoring system
can I believe be defined as to how much of an APP (abduction
prone personality) someone is. This would allow us to have some
kind of a value judgement factor to apply to future cases as
well as objective means to do further research into sub sets of
people that are APP (who have had abductions), APP (who have as
yet not) and non APP. That would be a useful experiment.

Being an APP does not mean you will necessarily have an
abduction. I have come upon people with the pattern who seem to
express their abilities differently (eg by becoming a medium).
Nor does it presume that the abduction is an imaginary
phenomenon as the term FPP (Fantasy Prone Personality) obviously
suggests. An APP might just as easily be aware of things that
non APPs cannot tune into.

Fantasy proneness, as defined by psychology, is not the answer.
Some of the symptoms overlap but I think we need the concept of
abduction proneness to emphasise the differences otherwise
skeptics will continue to allege that abductees are FPP and FPP
are of course simply gifted at imagination - ergo abductions are
nothing more than imagination. That logic appears good on the
surface but is clearly not the case from studies of abductees on
the ground and so any project that heads too far in such a
direction would be counter-productive, not to mention a backward
step as previous FPP studies have already shown it not to be the
answer.

Lets try to find good scientific evidence for drawing up a scale
of abduction proneness because that I believe would lead us
forward.

Best wishes,






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   Aug > Aug 13

               Re: Black helicopters in Jane's Defence Weekly

From: Terry Blanton <commengr@bellsouth.net>
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 13:17:52 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 16:13:40 -0400
Subject: Re: Black helicopters in Jane's Defence Weekly


 >Date: Fri, 31 Aug 1956 10:29:49 +0000
 >From: Josh Goldstein <clearlt@pacbell.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
 >Subject: Re: Black helicopters in Jane's Defence Weekly

<snip>

 >This is most interesting. I'll have to check out that issue of
 >Jane's. I have been aware of black helicopter reports for many
 >years. I have seen reports of "silent running". As a former Huey
 >(UH-1) pilot (175th Assault Helicopter Company, "The Outlaws") I
 >flew the choppers with the loudest flapping blades. I can't
 >imagine what rotor blage design or other technology would create
 >a silent helicopter. Does anyone out there in Updates universe
 >have any ideas?

I believe it was Tom Clancy's 'Debt of Honor' which described
the near-silent helicopter. Clancy has said that he takes the
true technology and cuts its performance in half when he writes
about it.  It this is the case, we very well might have a silent
helicopter.

The chopper blade noise is primarily due to the leading edge of
the main rotor blade exceeding the speed of sound. The resulting
sonic boom is difficult to overcome with long blades since their
linear speed is greater than a shorter blade with the same
rotational velocity. If you could create a very short blade
which provided the same amount of lift, you could reduce the
chopper noise significantly.






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   Aug > Aug 13

                    Re: UFO Video Capture Pics (May '99)

From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net>
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 14:58:00 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 16:16:46 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO Video Capture Pics (May '99)

 >Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 15:03:25 -0400
 >From: Robert Moore <ENGIMA9@compuserve.com>
 >Subject: Re: UFO Video Capture Pics (May '99)
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>

 >>From: Ben Field <ben@abcfield.force9.co.uk>
 >>Subject: UFO Video Capture Pics (May '99)
 >>Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 21:49:19 +0100
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>

 >>Dear List

 >>I received a video from a couple in the UK that captured a UFO
 >>while they were on holiday, attached to this email are a few
 >>images captured from the video. My opinion is that it looks
 >>like an advertising "blimp", but I  am hoping some other people
 >>may be able to tell me if they have seen anything similar. The
 >>UFO moved fairly slowly from right to left.

 >>Location and dates:
 >>Day sighting took place: Saturday   01  May   1999
 >>Time sighting took place: 8.00/9.00approx am/pm: PM

 >>Description of area where sighting took place: Country. By Motor
 >>Museum. Caravan Site at Stanmore Hall, Bridgenorth Shropshire.
 >>Nearest town: Bridgenorth    Country: Shropshire

 >Dear List,

 >The form depicted in the various video captures looks very
 >similar - in general shape, proportions and hue - to the "Virgin
 >Airship" (named after the British-based large aircraft, food
 >and entertainment corporation owned by English businessman
 >Richard Branson).

 >This airship, with it's distinctive floodlit/luminated gasbag,
 >has been the cause of numerous sightings throughout the U.K
 >during the 1990's.

 >The reported slow motion is also consistant with the image shown
 >in these video captures being an advertising airship (either the
 >Virgin one or another very like it).


Hi Roger, hi All,

If it is the Virgin blimp it should be an easy matter for one of
our brothers/sisters in the UK to call the company and inquire
if it was in the air, and it's location, on the night in
question. If someone would be so kind as to take the time to
check it out and post their findings many of us here across the
Pond would be grateful.

Regards,

John Velez
________________________________________________
                                  jvif@spacelab.net
                     ABDUCTION INFORMATION CENTER
                             http://www.if-aic.com/
  "Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind."
________________________________________________





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   Aug > Aug 13

               Re: Research Proposal - Hypnotic Suggestibility

From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 16:03:52 EDT
Fwd Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 16:52:47 -0400
Subject: Re: Research Proposal - Hypnotic Suggestibility


 >From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 20:09:35 EDT
 >Subject: Re: Research Proposal - Hypnotic Suggestibility
 >To: updates@globalserve.net

 >>From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>>
 >>Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 15:43:13 EDT
 >>Subject: Re: Research Proposal - Hypnotic Suggestibility
 >>To: updates@globalserve.net

 >>>Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 12:11:46 -0500
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
 >>>From: Joel Henry <jhenry@visi.com>
 >>>Subject: Re: Research Proposal - Hypnotic Suggestibility

<various names and addresses snipped>

<another snip>

 >>The real problem here is not the abductee and his or her
 >>belief structure, but that of the researcher conducting the
 >>investigation. No one has really looked into that until we
 >>did it in The Abduction Enigma.

 >Another bone in the soup, eh? Where's the beef? To add
 >another element into the equation may not be so bad. However
 >I would like to point to the words used. Words are really
 >terrific little tools. They can be used to attempt to make the
 >point intended to be made not by logic and reason, but by
 >marketing the point with the words.... Confused?

 >Let me elaborate...

 >"The _real_ problem.." Oh good, now we all know the real
 >problem. All other problems must therefore be fake. Thanks!

Let's argue semantics... or better yet, change it to read, "A
real problem..."

 >And then came the following....

 >" ... real problem here is not the abductee ... but the
 >researcher conducting the investigation. No one has really
 >looked into that until we did it in The Abduction Enigma... "

 >Oy! Do you mean that until you guys wrote your book, no one, you
 >mean _NO ONE_ really looked into the researcher conducting the
 >investigation? Holy cow! Well, gee, thanks a whole bunch, guys!
 >Somebody oughta right a wrong here.

So, let's get sarcastic here, or realize simply that while some
talked about the researchers conducting the investigations,
little attention was paid to that specific problem. We attempted
to address it at length because we believed it to be an
important aspect of understanding all about alien abduction.

 >>What we found was that
 >>most of the abductees were sincere and honest people who
 >>had some kind of unusual experience or who believed they
 >had. It was the researcher who hung the label on it,
 >>injecting his or her own beliefs into the situation. He who
 >>shall remain nameless lost his license not only for hot
 >>tubing but for implanting his beliefs on his clients. Edith
 >>Fiore told her patiences, when nothing appeared, "To make
 >>it up."

 >Guilt of all the researchers by association (yours) with some
 >who may not have done it properly. Good thinking. Make that bad
 >logic.

Nope, merely two of the most egregious examples. I could have
noted Dr. James Harder for his leading of Pat Roach in his
attempts to validate the Hill abduction or David Jacobs for his
suggestion that only he knows the proper way of conducting
hypnotic regression.

 >>And before we hear, once again that Fiore is not accepted by the
 >>"mainstream" I might point out that she has been endorsed by one
 >>half of the partnership that created ACCET to teach mental
 >>health professionals how to deal with those who believed they
 >>have been abducted.

 >Perhaps you should sue her for misconduct?

Don't have to... her patients have already done that.

 >>>Each regression case should be qualified as to accuracy,
 >>>usefullness, and competence by checking on whether and to
 >>>what extent the abductee in question has been checked out
 >>>beforehand and by whom.

 >>And shouldn't the person conducting the regression also be
 >>checked out. I might add here that in the experiment conducted
 >>using chemical regression that no abduction memory surfaced,
 >>although such memories were recovered under hypnotic regression.

 >Maybe that has something to do with the manner in which the
 >memory was planted and/or erased. Face it, sirs, you don't have
 >the answers, and so to imply that you have uncovered the _real_
 >problem is another attempted crime perpetrated on the very
 >people whom you seek to convince.

It has to do with the way the memories were "recovered" under
hypnotic regression and the fact that under chemical regression
we know that the subject is in an altered state but under
hypnosis we cannot be sure.

 >Jim Mortellaro, Ph.D., MBA, MOUSE.

 >I got more letters than you do. I must, as a consequence, be
 >smarter. Eh? Not. Just more vulnerable to culpable
 >misstatements by those claiming to have the Motts. In case you
 >are not aware, Motts makes juice.

Forgive me a little vanity here. I just received the degree in
June. Besides, I can add letters before and after my name.

KRandle, Ph.D.





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   Aug > Aug 13

               Re: Black Helicopters in Jane's Defence Weekly

From: Wendy Connors <ProjectSign@email.msn.com>
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 14:17:47 -0600
Fwd Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 17:12:41 -0400
Subject: Re: Black Helicopters in Jane's Defence Weekly


 >From: Steven J. Dunn <SDunn@LOGICON.COM>
 >Subject: Black helicopters in Jane's Defence Weekly
 >To: UFO Updates <updates@globalserve.net>,
 >Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 09:44:15 -0700

 >>From: Josh Goldstein <clearlt@pacbell.net
 >>Date: Fri, 31 Aug 1956 10:29:49 +0000
 >>Fwd Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 10:19:40 -0400
 >>Subject: Re: Black helicopters in Jane's Defence Weekly


 >Dear List members:

 >There in an article in the 28 July 1999 issue of _Jane's Defence
 >Weekly_ that may be of interest to members of the list. It is
 >entitled, "The Disappearing Helicopter" and, in highly
 >non-ufologically-oriented style (as would be expected), deals
 >with the "black helicopter" phenomon.
 >Ex: "There is a persistent legend, fostered by occasional
 >eye-witness testimony, that the US government has developed a
 >helicopter so stealthy that part of its repertoire includes the
 >ability to run silently."
 >Groom Lake and tests in the SW US are also prominently >mentioned.


 >>This is most interesting. I'll have to check out that issue of
 >>Jane's. I have been aware of black helicopter reports for many
 >>years. I have seen reports of "silent running". As a former Huey
 >>(UH-1) pilot (175th Assault Helicopter Company, "The Outlaws") I
 >>flew the choppers with the loudest flapping blades. I can't
 >>imagine what rotor blage design or other technology would create
 >>a silent helicopter. Does anyone out there in Updates universehave any
   ideas?
 >>Josh

No mystery Josh.

They are the closet variety pelicans the racist white flock
refuses to acknowledge exist. They even have the gall (no pun
intended) to make these little guys fly behind them out of
sight. From what I understand, the pier pilings are segregated
also. Since these poor unfortunate critters don't reflect like a
mirror while flipping around in the sun, they are doomed to fly
mostly at night. As soon as the Pelicanists get themselves
thoroughly organized, perhaps they will endeavor to use Purple
Robes to file a discrimination suit against the elitist white
pelicans. It is time those dastardly pouch carrying cretins get
what they deserve! In the meantime, I am starting a fund raising
effort to assist these poor unfortunate pelicans. I guarantee 2%
of all funds sent in to go directly to the alleviation of black
pelican suffering throughout the State of Washington. The
remainder will, of course, go into a seperate fund for the
continuing research into those excessively rare occassions when
the White Supremist Pelican's (WSP) play their favorite game of
throwing Sara Lee pie tins back and forth to each other in an
attempt to confuse the non-Pelicanists within the field of
ufology.

In further developments, word has been received that the silent
rotors are, in fact, surplus Archie beanies that the white
pelican's make the black ones wear. The bells on these beanies
have been removed in order for the black pelicans to sneak
through on the underground pelican railroad undetected to
Wright-Patterson AFB, where they can be protected in that secret
blue room inside the non-existent hanger 18, until they can
safely be taken across the border into Canada and welcomed with
open arms by Errol.

Time to fess up about your involvement Errol! <G>

Wendy Connors

[Its only the beanies that interest us - honest! That nice
  Mr. Myer has been most helpful - thanks Osc. -- ebk]





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   Aug > Aug 13

                    Re: 'Flying Pelicans on the Attack!'

From: Donald Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 17:04:06 -0300
Fwd Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 20:42:56 -0400
Subject: Re: 'Flying Pelicans on the Attack!'


 >Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 17:57:37 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time)
 >From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@YorkU.CA>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
 >Subject: Re: 'Flying Pelicans on the Attack!'

 >>From: James Easton <voyager@ukonline.co.uk>
 >>To: UFO UpDates <updates@globalserve.net>
 >>Subject: 'Flying Pelicans on the Attack!'
 >>Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 02:21:17 +0100

 ><snip>

 >>"I would only add a mention of the National Geographical
 >>article, 'Pelican Profiles', which I recently located in the
 >>November 1943 issue and records:

 >>'I recall the day in the early thirties when a companion and I,
 >>sight-seeing among the bubbling mud geysers on the eastern side
 >>of the [Salton] sea, observed a hundred white birds manoeuvring
 >>majestically in the sky. They played follow the leader.

 >>Then they soared into the blue until only the sun, glinting on
 >>white feathers, flashed their location'.

 >>As I've said, this is proof these birds were reflective from a
 >>considerable distance, even 'out of sight'."

 ><snip>

 >On several occasions I have observed white point-like objects
 >circling in the blue sky overhead.  One time it was after I put
 >down Leonard Stringfield's latest UFO crash monograph and looked
 >up while I was laying flat on a lawn chair in my backyard.  It
 >was easy to convince myself that these were distant UFOs, visible
 >by reflected sunlight.  Unlike the Arnold sighting, no shape or
 >even changing brightness was noted for these point-like objects
 >which suggested that they were highly symmetrical UFOs or very
 >distant birds (I concluded the latter was correct from the way
 >they were moving).

 >Yes, birds such as seagulls and pelicans do reflect sunlight, as
 >all birds do, but they do not reflect more sunlight or appear
 >brighter when they are much further away, even 'out of sight'.
 >Since my circling objects were not as bright as sunlight
 >reflecting off polished metallic surfaces such as airplanes, I
 >concluded they were in fact birds (probably seagulls since I
 >lived within a few miles of Lake Ontario).

 >When the sun is very low in the sky or has just set, high flying
 >birds will still be noticed in the darker sky since the sun can
 >still see them.  Although these birds will appear more luminous
 >in a darker sky, they will not actually be brighter.  During a
 >visit to Athens many years ago I was impressed to see a V-shaped
 >formation of bright point-like objects moving slowly high in the
 >sky at dusk.  Although I could convince myself that these too
 >were UFOs (and they could have been), I concluded they were just
 >high flying migrating birds.

 >>I trust it is now proven that birds can be reflective, like a
 >>mirror, and this equally applies when considering other 'UFO'
 >>cases where that explanation may have been ruled out.

 ><snip>

 >The amount of light reflected off a mirror (even a tarnished
 >one) is very much different to the amount of light reflected off
 >birds, including white ones.  I think experienced pilots would
 >easily distinguish between a distant silvery coloured airplane
 >common in the 1940's or a UFO and white birds closer by from the
 >amount of light reflected off them.

 >Years ago on one of my many trips by car on the highway between
 >Ottawa and Toronto I saw a very large dark elliptical shaped
 >well defined object in the distant daylight sky which changed
 >its shape slowly with time.  Driving closer to it, this single
 >object resolved into literally thousands of small black birds
 >which were flying closely together as if they had one mind.
 >Since there are many airports in the area, I wondered if any of
 >them picked up a strong radar return that indicated there was a
 >large slow moving object or UFO was in the area.

 >Although I have initially mistaken some birds for UFOs,I still
 >feel that what Arnold saw and described can better be explained
 >as some unknown aircraft or UFOs rather than large white birds
 >such as pelicans.


Hi Nick,

Good points all. Just wanted to point out one of the problems
with this field and that is the use of the initials, UFO. You
stated in your last paragraph that you had initially mistaken
some birds for UFOs when in fact the birds were UFOs until you
identified them.

I know this subject has been kicked around for years but the UFO
term has come to mean two things. First an Unidentified Flying
Object which in the literal sense means an unidentified object,
in the air, flying and the viewer can't figure out what it is.
It is a judgement call on behalf of the witness and becomes more
credible depending on the witnesses' ability and expertise in
certain areas.

UFO also seems to mean an extraterrestrial object that is under
intelligent control [again perhaps extraterrestrial] but please
add your own interpretation here... i.e. inter-dimensional,
co-existant Earth-life forms, etc.

Wouldn't it be nice if we could come up with a term that would
switch a UFO to either an IFO or the new term, which would
denote whatever the hell we think these things are? The term
Flying Saucer, of course sucks.

Don Ledger





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   Aug > Aug 14

               Re: Black helicopters in Jane's Defence Weekly

From: dave bowden <dave.bowden@cableinet.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 21:58:39 +0000
Fwd Date: Sat, 14 Aug 1999 12:21:38 -0400
Subject: Re: Black helicopters in Jane's Defence Weekly


 >Date: Fri, 31 Aug 1956 10:29:49 +0000
 >From: Josh Goldstein <clearlt@pacbell.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
 >Subject: Re: Black helicopters in Jane's Defence Weekly

 >>Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 09:44:15 -0700
 >>From: Steven J. Dunn <SDunn@LOGICON.COM>
 >>Subject: Black helicopters in Jane's Defence Weekly
 >>To: UFO Updates <updates@globalserve.net>,

 >>Dear List members:

 >>There in an article in the 28 July 1999 issue of _Jane's Defence
 >>Weekly_ that may be of interest to members of the list. It is
 >>entitled, "The Disappearing Helicopter" and, in highly
 >>non-ufologically-oriented style (as would be expected), deals
 >>with the "black helicopter" phenomon.

 >>Ex: "There is a persistent legend, fostered by occasional
 >>eye-witness testimony, that the US government has developed a
 >>helicopter so stealthy that part of its repertoire includes the
 >>ability to run silently."

 >>Groom Lake and tests in the SW US are also prominently
 >>mentioned.

Hi Josh,

 >This is most interesting. I'll have to check out that issue of
 >Jane's. I have been aware of black helicopter reports for many
 >years. I have seen reports of "silent running". As a former Huey
 >(UH-1) pilot (175th Assault Helicopter Company, "The Outlaws") I
 >flew the choppers with the loudest flapping blades. I can't
 >imagine what rotor blage design or other technology would create
 >a silent helicopter. Does anyone out there in Updates universe
 >have any ideas?

Yep, anyone talking about 'silent helo's' has seen one too many
episodes of Blue Thunder. As you quite rightly pointed out it's
the rotors that make the noise.

It would be 'physically' impossible to create a silent running
helicopter.

I wish they could though, I live very near to a military base
and on more than one occasion I have been woken up in the early
hours of the morning by the 'whop whop whop' of those noisy
bastards flying past my house.

I'm in two minds whether I should get myself one of those
do-it-yourself SAM site kits for the back yard.

There's a special on at B&Q's at the moment.

If you're interested in stealth-helicopters check out the
Russian 'Black Shark' now there's a piece of kit.

Still as noisy as hell but at least the radar guy won't see it.






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               Re: Black helicopters in Jane's Defence Weekly

From: Donald Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 17:53:52 -0300
Fwd Date: Sat, 14 Aug 1999 13:42:23 -0400
Subject: Re: Black helicopters in Jane's Defence Weekly


 >Date: Fri, 31 Aug 1956 10:29:49 +0000
 >From: Josh Goldstein <clearlt@pacbell.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
 >Subject: Re: Black helicopters in Jane's Defence Weekly

 >>Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 09:44:15 -0700
 >>From: Steven J. Dunn <SDunn@LOGICON.COM>
 >>Subject: Black helicopters in Jane's Defence Weekly
 >>To: UFO Updates <updates@globalserve.net>,

 >>Dear List members:

 >>There in an article in the 28 July 1999 issue of _Jane's Defence
 >>Weekly_ that may be of interest to members of the list. It is
 >>entitled, "The Disappearing Helicopter" and, in highly
 >>non-ufologically-oriented style (as would be expected), deals
 >>with the "black helicopter" phenomon.

 >>Ex: "There is a persistent legend, fostered by occasional
 >>eye-witness testimony, that the US government has developed a
 >>helicopter so stealthy that part of its repertoire includes the
 >>ability to run silently."

 >>Groom Lake and tests in the SW US are also prominently
 >>mentioned.

 >This is most interesting. I'll have to check out that issue of
 >Jane's. I have been aware of black helicopter reports for many
 >years. I have seen reports of "silent running". As a former Huey
 >(UH-1) pilot (175th Assault Helicopter Company, "The Outlaws") I
 >flew the choppers with the loudest flapping blades. I can't
 >imagine what rotor blage design or other technology would create
 >a silent helicopter. Does anyone out there in Updates universe
 >have any ideas?


Hi Josh,

Bell has the new tail-rotorless [the real noisemaker on most
helicopters-except for Josh's UH-1] chopper out with the five
blade rotor. Apparently it is much quieter than the the older
models, but not silent. The police are using it for night
patrols in places where they can sneak up on suspected prowlers,
etc. But it gets noisey when it gets within 500 feet.






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   Aug > Aug 14

                        Re: And Still They Come.....

From: Rick Goldsmith <rgoldsm@synapse.net>
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 17:41:34 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 14 Aug 1999 13:47:39 -0400
Subject: Re: And Still They Come.....


 >From: Jerry Anderson <jerry@uforesearch.freeserve.co.uk>
 >To: UFO UpDates <updates@globalserve.net>
 >Subject: And Still They Come.....
 >Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 23:33:48 +0100

If I may, having NOT seen the footage;

 >Dear Errol and List,

 >Here in the South East of England in the county of Kent, on the
 >night of Sunday 1st August 1999, there was a sighting involving
 >lots of witnesses, probably around 50 - 60.

 >All these witnesses live in an area called Ayelsham, about 10
 >miles from the port of Dover.

 >The spectacle was videoed by at least one person (hurrah!), who
 >recorded for several minutes.

 >When I first saw the footage, it put me in mind of the video
 >sequences from Mexico showing multiple shiny discs/spheres.

 >Indeed, there are many of these objects clearly visible on the
 >Ayelsham video, which also shows an aircraft (anti-collision
 >lights etc.), passing underneath them, indicating that the
 >objects were at a very high altitude. The eyewitnesses claim
 >that all participants in this 'Armada' were multi-coloured and
 >reflective. The footage (taken in the dark with a fair amount of
 >light pollution), shows only silvery coloured objects in no
 >discernible pattern, crossing from south to north in a slow
 >procession, although there were two other larger objects
 >trailing behind and seemed to accelerate and catch up with the
 >main group.

'Sounds like balloons so far...

 >The next day (Monday), the local TV station showed the tape and
 >interviewed author Timothy Good and a meteorologist (sorry,
 >can't remember his name at the mo), in the studio.

 >Tim said that he was in no doubt that the objects were nothing
 >more than helium filled metallic coloured balloons. The
 >meteorologist said that in his opinion, the sighting was not
 >caused by any atmospheric condition with which he was familiar.

I agree. Balloons. Was the meteoroligist asked if it looked like
balloons to her/him? If so, what was the reply? Were they the
weather person for that station?

Besides, If Tim said it's balloons, there's a pretty good chance
its balloons.

 >As is usually the way with the media, they left the story
 >'hanging', inviting the public to phone-in with their
 >explanations.


 >When I first viewed the footage, I was inclined to go with the
 >'metallic balloon' theory, but when the two larger objects
 >increased speed to join the others, I had second thoughts.

Think of the bigger objects as being a bunch of balloons tied
together. They may have bumped around into a configuration that
gave them a more efficient "sail" to catch the wind as opposed
to the singular balloons, being round, I'm assuming. If all the
balloons, big and small were moving ( same direction ) this
would be plausible. If they just zoomed over from a standstill,
that would be something else indeed!

 >If it were simply the wind that had blown them, wouldn't it have
 >affected the main cluster?

 >The weather conditions were excellent, and as far as I can tell,
 >there was no wind (I live a mile and a half from the scene).

No wind on the ground maybe... Any clouds? Were they moving?

 >There were, however, balloons let off from Maidstone in Kent
 >that day (45 miles away), in aid of Cancer Research. These were
 >metallic and helium filled.

Everybody say: A-HA!

 >I find it difficult to believe that 60 - 70 balloons could stay
 >together over that kind of distance, all at the same height
 >(more or less), and still manage to reflect the lights of a
 >small village many thousands of feet below at such a magnitude.

Actually, I've always been impressed by how a bunch of balloons
stays as close as it does, in relatively calm weather.  But when
you consider them as being all the same size, weight, etc.
There's no good reason why they should not level off at more or
less the same height. If they are let go all at once, chances
are they will stay pretty close together. This wouldn't really
apply on a windy or stormy day though.

As far as the light is concerned: Could it have been reflected
sunlight, possibly from below the horizon? Maybe lights from the
nearest city or refinery? Maidstone perhaps?


 >Comments please folks; I'm relying on you!

Balloons. Definitely. 'Hope I haven't burst anyones' bubble.   :)

R.G.





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               Re: Black helicopters in Jane's Defence Weekly

From: Gavin A. J. McLeod <gavin_mcleod@bc.sympatico.ca>
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 17:03:04 -0700
Fwd Date: Sat, 14 Aug 1999 14:28:36 -0400
Subject: Re: Black helicopters in Jane's Defence Weekly



 >Date: Fri, 31 Aug 1956 10:29:49 +0000
 >From: Josh Goldstein <clearlt@pacbell.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
 >Subject: Re: Black helicopters in Jane's Defence Weekly

 >>Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 09:44:15 -0700
 >>From: Steven J. Dunn <SDunn@LOGICON.COM>
 >>Subject: Black helicopters in Jane's Defence Weekly
 >>To: UFO Updates <updates@globalserve.net>,

 >>Dear List members:

 >>There in an article in the 28 July 1999 issue of _Jane's Defence
 >>Weekly_ that may be of interest to members of the list. It is
 >>entitled, "The Disappearing Helicopter" and, in highly
 >>non-ufologically-oriented style (as would be expected), deals
 >>with the "black helicopter" phenomon.

 >>Ex: "There is a persistent legend, fostered by occasional
 >>eye-witness testimony, that the US government has developed a
 >>helicopter so stealthy that part of its repertoire includes the
 >>ability to run silently."

 >>Groom Lake and tests in the SW US are also prominently
 >>mentioned.


 >This is most interesting. I'll have to check out that issue of
 >Jane's. I have been aware of black helicopter reports for many
 >years. I have seen reports of "silent running". As a former Huey
 >(UH-1) pilot (175th Assault Helicopter Company, "The Outlaws") I
 >flew the choppers with the loudest flapping blades. I can't
 >imagine what rotor blage design or other technology would create
 >a silent helicopter. Does anyone out there in Updates universe
 >have any ideas?


Approximately 3 years ago on a cable TV channel, a program on
recent technology reviewed the development of a very low noise
helicopter.

The helicopter was developed by NASA for police surveillance. It
was described as being able to follow the activities of a
fleeing felon while having a noise signature below ambient
street noise (even at night).






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   Aug > Aug 14

                       Re: 1937 UFO Crash in Germany?

From: Thiago Ticchetti <thiagolt@opengate.com.br>
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 23:39:54 -0300
Fwd Date: Sat, 14 Aug 1999 14:25:28 -0400
Subject: Re: 1937 UFO Crash in Germany?


 >Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 17:05:05 -0400
 >From: Werner Walter <113236.1604@compuserve.com>
 >Subject: Re: 1937 UFO Crash in Germany?
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>

 >>From: Keith Basterfield Network <tkbnetw@fan.net.au>
 >>To: UFO UpDates <updates@globalserve.net>
 >>Subject: 1937 UFO Crash in Germany?
 >>Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 09:09:17 +1000

 >Hi Diane and Listmembers,

 >No information about a UFO-crash 1937 in Germany in my files.


Hold on because I do have some information about this crash!





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               Re: Black helicopters in Jane's Defence Weekly

From: GT McCoy <gtmccoy@harborside.com>
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 20:17:55 -0700
Fwd Date: Sat, 14 Aug 1999 15:10:22 -0400
Subject: Re: Black helicopters in Jane's Defence Weekly


Hello, all (Thank God this doesn't involve Pelicans.)


 >Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 13:17:52 -0400
 >From: Terry Blanton <commengr@bellsouth.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
 >Subject: Re: Black helicopters in Jane's Defence Weekly

 >>Date: Fri, 31 Aug 1956 10:29:49 +0000
 >>From: Josh Goldstein <clearlt@pacbell.net>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Black helicopters in Jane's Defence Weekly

 ><snip>

 >>This is most interesting. I'll have to check out that issue of
 >>Jane's. I have been aware of black helicopter reports for many
 >>years. I have seen reports of "silent running". As a former Huey
 >>(UH-1) pilot (175th Assault Helicopter Company, "The Outlaws") I
 >>flew the choppers with the loudest flapping blades. I can't
 >>imagine what rotor blage design or other technology would create
 >>a silent helicopter. Does anyone out there in Updates universe
 >>have any ideas?

Being a fan of Clancy's he's usually accurate.

 >I believe it was Tom Clancy's 'Debt of Honor' which described
 >the near-silent helicopter. Clancy has said that he takes the
 >true technology and cuts its performance in half when he writes
 >about it.  It this is the case, we very well might have a silent
 >helicopter.

 >The chopper blade noise is primarily due to the leading edge of
 >the main rotor blade exceeding the speed of sound. The resulting
 >sonic boom is difficult to overcome with long blades since their
 >linear speed is greater than a shorter blade with the same
 >rotational velocity. If you could create a very short blade
 >which provided the same amount of lift, you could reduce the
 >chopper noise significantly.


Terry,

This has been tried before; Curtiss- yes the builder of the P-40
of WW11-had built the X-22  which was a Tilt-Rotor (4, two in
front two in back on a King Air (B-200) type fuselage.

The X-22 was equipped with Four wide cord, short propellers. Two
problems: not enough lift for the power, and the complexity of
the trasmissions. However the X-22 was quiet in the
propeller/rotor area but it used four very noisy gas turbines,
RR Darts I believe.

GT McCoy






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   Aug > Aug 14

                            Alfred's Odd Ode #312

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 1999 07:33:03 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 14 Aug 1999 15:14:57 -0400
Subject: Alfred's Odd Ode #312


Apology to MW #312 (For August 14, 1999)

Science is most misconstrued, or misused with an attitude. A
useful tool within ones belt, a wealth of uses we've all felt,
but dote upon its cloying ways, so soon we are as clones and
slaves to wallow in its easy vices, suspect fixes -- new
devices. Science is then disrespected, primacies (too quick)
neglected, try to sprint before we walk, or mumble where we once
would talk.  Science laughs and  snaps it's fingers, still, the
subtle fear will linger; we could lose what we have gained if
what propels us finds our shame.

Smirking laughter fills the halls at feeding troughs where
*science* lolls in languid lunches with the twitcher, poorer --
poorer, richer . . . richer. Focused on the *bigger* picture,
call it their convenient stricture, they must toe the *party*
line or lose their funding, jobs and minds. Consider Tesla, what
a find -- an Einstein for Electrickind? They sure sensed where
HE was headed, dried him up, then HEAPED discredit!  Being
right's no guarantee. We _shall_ not HAVE what makes us free!
Velikovsky's explanation, some support and gave citation -- he
wrote a book so roundly panned it _begs_ another look, by damn!
Sitchin makes the ancients real, and what they wrote's the real
deal. They had the knowledge far exceeding what's copped to in
our schools; he's pleading.

Look at all the temples crazed, ruined in *disasters* razed.
Built to face a rising sun upon the solstice, one could run a
line configured for encryptions, strange conjunctions, and
eclipses.  They knew their _seasons_-- knew a year -- divided by
their days of fear. A number of the circle WAS . . .  nine times
forty -- works it does! All the numbers (excluding seven) turn
three sixty 'round the heavens. They weren't stupid, knew their
stuff -- to make damned sure they'd _food_ enough!

Here's the point, and listen closely, the temples are rebuilt --
if costly. Still not stupid, they display a temple turned
degrees away! The sun has moved (!), and turned right back (!);
it's come up in a western track! Temples moved to follow suns in
shifting solar dances FROM locations they had held for years --
and when it moved it kindled fear! Kingdoms were reduced in
thunder, populations quaked at wonders they would think had
seared their souls despite their sacrifice OR gold.

Science's shocked, then dismisses sundials that don't work as
*misses* -- errors that our elders made, in ignorance that
they've put paid? A year, in days, three sixty-five (a quarter,
change, to keep it right). That's the way it's always been (?),
and any less is weak and thin? Science smiles knowingly, like
they've the answers, glowingly -- like we can TRUST those at the
trough to tell us when enough's enough.

"Scientists are just not Science" they intone their self
reliance. "Science is a path we use to keeps the facts for firm
review. Thesis and antithesis -- we test them out for synthesis.
This becomes a brand new posit searching for its op-posite. This
is found and onward bound -- repeated, scored , and checked (if
*sound*). Continued to some far refrain, we hope some meager
TRUTH remains." You think that I _confuse_ the two. You think
it's me that misconstrues. But no, my friend  -- and just
BECAUSE it's science IS as science DOES, that you will stay down
on your knees, to hide the skies, and NOT be free. You just
mouth that old refrain -- a cloak you wear to hide the stain.
These are just mere words to you -- to stonewall's what you
really do!

You won't check the two percent, you won't talk to Mr. Rense.
You won't cop to what you SAY to him in private. You don't pay!
You can't search the scary skies without assumptions you
contrive to keep on feeding at a trough that keeps you down and
clueless -- lost. You _can't_ mean your snide derision, blame it
on the imposition of our leaders unelected that remain so
undetected. What is hidden? What betrays? What grand secret
haunts our days? What will near term futures bring? Gracious
bounty, or slaps and stings?

Lehmberg@snowhill.com

~~~<>~~~~~~<>~~~~~~<>~~~~~~<>~~~~~~<>~~~~~~<>~~~

Dr. Gary Posner, MD and cult leader of the Tampa Bay Skeptics
wrote the following in "Faulty Sense of Reality", published in
"Skeptical Inquirer", 3(2), p. 79:

"[Believers in the paranormal may be] afflicted with a thought
disorder that manifests in... a faulty sense of reality...
[their] irrational behavior... may be more compatible with a
diagnosis of ambulatory schizophrenia... than with mere
naivete."

<BZ writes>

So, once again, we see the basic pseudoscientific line of
argumentation of the "skeptics": instead of addressing the
claims with the specificity demanded of the scientific method
and the protocols of logical debate, Posner chooses to assert
that his opponents suffer from a pathological medical condition,
a bold claim for which Posner apparently has no burden of proof.
Posner, a self-styled "skeptic" forgets that in science,
criticisms of claims must be specific, not vague attacks -- much
less vague attacks on mental stability.

Posner, like most "skeptics", will cloak the shocking
irrationality of his amazingly pseudoscientific claim in the
holy robes of "science", thus lending a false sense of
scientific legitimacy to an approach more consistent with witch
hunts and crowd madness than with the scientific methodology
which he ironically claims to defend. In reality, he only
denigrates that which he purports to promote.

Thank you, Posner, for illustrating the essence of "skepticism"
in a way that is highly effective in discrediting any sense of
objectivity and scientific rationality that you might have hoped
to enjoy. Of course, your fellow skeptic cult members will
simply laugh and congratulate you, but that's only to be
expected.

How did the scientific community morally deteriorate to such a
level where base instinct overrides the logical faculties?
Posner's comments are the antithesis of scientific methodology
and logical debate, yet CSICOP promotes such intolerable,
fanatical viewpoints nevertheless, all while cloaking their
zealous agenda of dogmatic fascism in the ruse of
objective science.

-- Brian Zeiler

~~~<>~~~~~~<>~~~~~~<>~~~~~~<>~~~~~~<>~~~~~~<>~~~

Not all THAT overstated, no?  �And so it goes as one wonders
what a scientist really is. It's not science. That's just a
cloak they use.

What's new in John Ford's miserably unjust existence . . . I've
heard disturbing rumors

Restore John Ford!

--
Ponder the Wit & Wisdom of Ching Chow!
View "Unstill Life" -- Animation . . . and more.
Consider Matter, Mind & Movement.
See the current HTML "Apology to MW" with illustration.
Take a ride in the Teleporter.

Explore "Alfred Lehmberg's Alien View" at his Fortunecity URL.

http://www.fortunecity.com/roswell/arecibo/46/
<Updated 7 August>

John Ford Restoration Fund -- Send your checks and
money orders to _me_, Alfred Lehmberg
(cut out the lawyers, they got their's) at:
304 Melbourne Drive, Enterprise AL, 36330. Strict records kept.
$350.00 pledged -- $200.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see from
afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, burned at the
fundamentalist's stake.






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Aug > Aug 15

                    Re: 'Flying Pelicans on the Attack!'

From: Scott Reed <sreed@zoomnet.net>
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 1999 09:11:40 -0400
Fwd Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 10:30:30 -0400
Subject: Re: 'Flying Pelicans on the Attack!'


 >Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 17:04:06 -0300
 >From: Donald Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
 >To: updates@globalserve.net
 >Subject: Re: 'Flying Pelicans on the Attack!'

 >>Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 17:57:37 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time)
 >>From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@YorkU.CA>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
 >>Subject: Re: 'Flying Pelicans on the Attack!'

<snip>

 >>Although I have initially mistaken some birds for UFOs,I still
 >>feel that what Arnold saw and described can better be explained
 >>as some unknown aircraft or UFOs rather than large white birds
 >>such as pelicans.

 >Hi Nick,

 >Good points all. Just wanted to point out one of the problems
 >with this field and that is the use of the initials, UFO. You
 >stated in your last paragraph that you had initially mistaken
 >some birds for UFOs when in fact the birds were UFOs until you
 >identified them.

 >I know this subject has been kicked around for years but the UFO
 >term has come to mean two things. First an Unidentified Flying
 >Object which in the literal sense means an unidentified object,
 >in the air, flying and the viewer can't figure out what it is.
 >It is a judgement call on behalf of the witness and becomes more
 >credible depending on the witnesses' ability and expertise in
 >certain areas.
 >
 >UFO also seems to mean an extraterrestrial object that is under
 >intelligent control [again perhaps extraterrestrial] but please
 >add your own interpretation here... i.e. inter-dimensional,
 >co-existant Earth-life forms, etc.
 >
 >Wouldn't it be nice if we could come up with a term that would
 >switch a UFO to either an IFO or the new term, which would
 >denote whatever the hell we think these things are? The term
 >Flying Saucer, of course sucks.

Incidentally, and I know this is somewhat off-topic to birds,
but I also had an interesting experience I'd like to share here
that may add to the discussion.

About 2 years ago I was driving home from work.  It was about 6
p.m or so--an extremely heavy and powerful rainstorm had just
subsided, and in the clearing air I saw a swooping, silver donut
shaped object come out of the mist and whip around the sky
directly above me, possibly as close as 70 feet from my car.

This sighting lasted only 20 seconds or more, but it was long
enough for me to notice the battleship grey/silver of the
object, and clearly it's shape.  The object, as quickly as it
had dropped into sight, rose back beyond my line of sight (above
the car windshield) and was gone.

I was, however, lucky enough to have seen it's underside, which
housed what was clearly a string and connecting apparatus--very
similar to weather balloons, I knew.  I pieced it all together,
and realized that the heavy rains had pushed the balloon down
quite a distance.  It was now working it's way back up.

As I continued to drive home, I couldn't help but wonder what my
interpretation of the event would have been had I known nothing
about weather balloons?  What would my explanation turn into had
I not been fortunate enough to have seen it's underside--or even
if I had seen the object from just a few more feet distance, or
under slightly different visual circumstances?

Scott R.

     Visit Reed Comics and preview  HIGH STRANGENESS,
       a 'pop-art' exploration of UFO phenomenon, and the
                ------  weekly on-line comic strip ------
                  -------- THE LAST ODYSSEY --------
        http://www.zoomnet.net/~sreed/strangeness.htm






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   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Aug > Aug 15

                          UFO*BC Updates - Aug 1999

From: Dave Pengilly - UFO*BC <david_pengilly@dccnet.com>
Date: 14 Aug 1999 09:08:30 -0700
Fwd Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 10:34:27 -0400
Subject: UFO*BC Updates - Aug 1999

We have recently updated our website - http://ufobc.org
The following items are linked from our Homepage, under
"What's New"

1) Coming Events
  - Sasquatch Conference, John Schuessler Lecture & More!
  - http://ufobc.org/events.htm

2) "Sighting in Terrace" - 15-Oct-97
  - http://ufobc.org/terrace.htm

3) "Yukon UFO Investigator Kept Busy"
  - a story about our representative in Whitehorse, Martin Jasek
  - http://www.sightings.com/ufo4/busy.htm

4) "Malcolm Corey's UFO Sightings"
  - A lifetime of sightings by our friend Malcolm Corey
  - http://ufobc.org/corey.htm

5) "High Tension" by Graham Conway
  - a story of high strangeness, and a mother's concern
  - http://ufobc.org/tension.htm

6) "Summer 99" issue of UFO*BC Quarterly is now out!
  - http://ufobc.org/summer99.htm

7) "Recently Reported Sightings" - updated on 8-Aug-99
  - http://ufobc.org/recent.htm

***********************************************************

If you do not want to receive these updates, please reply
with your e-mail address and I will gladly remove your name
from the list. Thank you.

Dave Pengilly
dave@ufobc.org





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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Aug > Aug 15

                       To Subscribers via demon.co.uk

From: Moderator UFO UpDates
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 17:17:50 -0400
Fwd Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 17:17:50 -0400
Subject: To Subscribers via demon.co.uk




For some reason, [I suspect demon.co.uk has installed new
anti-spam software] mail to UpDates subscribers whose addresses
end with the extension .demon.co.uk is being bounced back here.

There are over a two dozen of you - most of whom have with
UpDates for a long period of time.

I've had to remove your addresses from the List. Please contact
your postmaster and send a Cc: of the message to the UpDates
address with a copy to abuse@globalserve.net

With any luck the two systems will be able to resolve this
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Failing resolution the only option is to re-subscribe using a
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Please be sure to enclose your name along with your .demon.co.uk
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ebk









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   Aug > Aug 15

             'Strange Days...Indeed' - Tonight: Don Berliner 0f

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 17:53:16 -0400
Fwd Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 17:53:16 -0400
Subject: 'Strange Days...Indeed' - Tonight: Don Berliner 0f




From: UFO UpDates - Toronto

On 'Strange Days... Indeed' tonight, Don Berliner chairman of
the Fund for UFO Research.

For those of you not familiar with Don and FUFOR the following
is from the Fund's website at: www.fufor.org/

---

MESSAGE FROM THE FUND CHAIRMAN

...It is the goal of the Fund to add to the knowledge of this
peculiar phenomenon in a manner that moves us toward the
eventual understanding of the 20th Century's most durable
mystery.

We will try to include only that information which has been
checked out carefully. There will be no rumors, no unsupported
theories, and no discussions of matters that are merely
possible.

Despite what you may have heard, the Fund is a completely
independent organization, having absolutely no connection to any
branch or agency of any government. Our financial support comes
from the sales of reports and other literature and from
individual donations. The names of contributors have always been
kept private.

The Fund does not take a stand on any controversial issue (e.g.
Area 51) and does its best to remain at arm's length from other
mysteries (e.g. Crop Circles), even if some people think they
are related to UFOs. We do not engage in feuds and respond to
only the most serious attacks. When faced with clearly illegal
activity, such as the claim by another organization that it was
responsible for a report in which we were directly involved, we
will not hesitate to call on the legal profession to make our
position clear.

We are convinced that UFOs are worth very serious study by
properly qualified individuals. But it has not yet been
determined, to the satisfaction of the majority of
scientifically-trained persons, what UFOs are, where they come
from, who or what is directing them, and why they are here.

Everyone has ideas on these questions, but the proof of any
answer has yet to be nailed down.

Our only formal connection to another UFO organization is our
participation in the UFO Research Coalition, along with the
Center for UFO Studies and the Mutual UFO Network. We continue
to fund and conduct scientific projects under this umbrella.

Now to an organizational matter. At the end of 1997, Chairman
Richard Hall stepped down after five highly productive years,
and Board Member Don Berliner was elected to replace him. The
latter has been a free-lance aviation and science writer for
more than 30 years, specializing in sporting and historic
aviation topics, as well as UFOs. In the mid-to-late 1960s, he
worked under Hall as a full-time staff member of NICAP, the
National Investigations Committee on Aerial Phenomena.

If you have any comments or suggestions which are consistent
with the above expression of our philosophy, you are invited to
communicate them via email to comments@fufor.org

---

Join co-host Jonn Kares and I along with Don on 'Strange
Days...Indeed' tonight.

The program starts at 11:00pm EST on

1010 CFRB AM - 50,000 watts 'Clear-Channel'

6070khz Shortwave

and you can listen via Media Player at:

www.cfrb.com/

You'll need to access the site using Internet Explorer since
Media Player seems to choke using any version of Netscape -
thanks Mr. Bill!


To call the program 'live', dial:

On-Air    416-872-1010
           1-800-561-CFRB [all over North America]
           *TALK [local mobiles]







   UFO UpDates
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   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Aug > Aug 15

                    Re: 'Flying Pelicans on the Attack!'

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 11:42:26 -0400
Fwd Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 19:05:24 -0400
Subject: Re: 'Flying Pelicans on the Attack!'


 >From: James Easton <voyager@ukonline.co.uk>
 >To: UFO UpDates <updates@globalserve.net>
 >Subject: 'Flying Pelicans on the Attack!'
 >Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 02:21:17 +0100

 >Some new material has come to light which has a direct relevance
 >on the Arnold case and the specularity of birds per se.

 >I quote:

 >"This was on the other side of the world - in Brisbane, state
 >capital of Queensland. I was in an office overlooking the city
 >(arguing, if I remember correctly, with a customs inspector
 >about import licenses) and it was late in the afternoon. The sun
 >was low on the horizon - and moving slowly above it from north
 >to south was a line of brilliant silver disks.>>

Note Carefully: "moving slowly _above_ it from North to South
was a line of brilliant silver disks."


 >They looked like metallic mirrors, and they were oscillating or
 >flipflopping with a regular seesaw motion.

The reflections of sunlight were changing with orientation. Not
surprising.

 > Once again, I could
 >not guess their size or distance.; they were so bright and tiny
 >against the darkening sky that it was almost impossible to
 >decide their shape, but they gave the impression of being
 >ellipses. I don't mind admitting that in the few minutes before
 >they came closer I felt myself wondering if the Martian invasion
 >had started; this was the only time I have ever seen a fleet of
 >textbook flying saucers.

 >In this case, the explanation turned out to be something I
 >already knew - and didn't believe. Many UFO sightings (including
 >one that is the subject of a celebrated and authentic film)

This would be the Delbert Newhouse film (Tremonton, Utah, 1952).
Although the film was widely reported and known to the public by
the middle fifties (featured in the UFO Green/Rouse movie),
thanks to incomplete investigation by Project Blue Book (as
admitted by Ruppelt in his book, Chapter 16) only a few
investigators knew that Newhouse and his wife saw the objects
when they were close. They certainly did not look like birds at
that time!! Evidently Clark, who reviewed Ruppelt's book for the
Journal of the British Interplanetary Society (Sept 1956) forgot
what Ruppelt wrote about Newhouse's direct testimony (which
Ruppelt got from Newhouse _after_ Ruppelt had retired from the
AF).

Incidently, Clark gave Ruppelt's book a rather good review.

 > were
 >due, I'd read, to birds reflecting sunlight under unusual
 >conditions of illumination. This theory seemed so absurd that I
 >dismissed it contemptuously; but it is perfectly correct.

OK to be contemptuous. "Perfectly correct" only under certain
conditions that didn't apply to Arnold's sighting. Seen belo.

 >The lights I saw flipping across Brisbane were nothing more than
 >sea gulls, the undersurfaces of their wings acting as mirrors.>

The birds were "above" but "close to" the sun, i.e., the angle
between the birds and the sun was small (don't know how many
degrees from the above statement). Keep this small angle in
mind!!

 >Though I have lived beside the sea for a quarter of my life and
 >am doing so now, this is the only time I have ever witnessed
 >this phenomenon, and I would never have credited it without the
 >evidence of my own eyes.

 >The effect of oscillating metallic disks was absolutely
 >realistic; it would have fooled anyone".

 >>From 'Things in the Sky', a non-fiction essay by Arthur C.
 >>Clarke, written in 1958.

 >I'd almost forgotten that I've witnessed the same phenomenon and
 >may even have mentioned it a couple of years back.

 >Looking out of the window, I noticed some brilliant 'lights'
 >circling about a mile away and around 200 feet. I presumed it
 >was a reflection from late afternoon sun on seagulls as I knew
 >they were frequent visitors to that location. It wasn't certain
 >though as the outline of birds couldn't be seen at all and I had
 >to use binoculars before confirming the explanation.

 >Consider the reflective capabilities of a glossy, all white (bar
 >the wingtips) bird with a ten foot wingspan. Under appropriate
 >conditions, could this act like a large mirror?

 >Yes, quite conceivably and this was what had been pointed out by
 >Michael Price at the beginning. Michael is an ornithologist with
 >experience of the Pacific North-west area and perhaps worth
 >reiterating his conclusions on the question - did Kenneth
 >Arnold's description of the objects indicate any Pacific North-
 >west bird as a distinct candidate:

 >"So, on to Mr. Arnold's description that started this whole damn
 >thing about UFO's (part of my misspent youth was spending a few
 >thousand hours as an amateur astronomer and I never got to see
 >even one UFO that really baffled me, he grumbled). Given the
 >location, 25 mi off Mt Rainier's glacial sides, ice would be a
 >great substitute reflector and would easily blast enough
 >sunlight back up onto birds' underwings to make them reflect
 >very brightly.

Note that Mr. Price claims that sunlight reflected from snow on
Mt. Rainier was the source of the light reflected from the
birds. He did NOT suggest that the sun itself was the source
because he knew that the _Unknown_ Reflectors or URs (there's a
nice neutral term) were _East_ of Arnold while the sun was west.
This is important. (see below)

 >Just look at the excruciating whiteness of the underwings of an
 >adult white-headed gull such as a Herring or Glaucous-winged
 >flying over snow on a sunny winter day.

The "excruciating whiteness" is only obvious when the bird is
close (well within a mile).

Note this: it appeared to Arnold that the URs passed behind
mountain tops south of Rainier (the disappearance having been
"explained" in the past as the tilting of a bird so that it
momentarily faded from view, I suppose by becoming too small in
angular size to detect), and given that Arnold was over 9,000 ft
high but the mountain tops are around 6000 ft, then Arnold MUST
have been looking very slightly (2 degree depression angle) DOWN
at the birds. This would give a glancing angle of light
reflection from the TOPS of th birds, as long as the URs were
silhouetted against Mr. Rainier...but not before they reached
the direction of Mt. Rainier and not after they passed the
direction to Mt. Rainier. See below.

 >Given the time of year, and that, if Arnold *were* looking at
 >birds whether or not he knew it, what would they likely be?
 >Canada Geese come to mind immediately, most other large
 >waterfowl being in the North, and he mentions geese as a
 >possibility. But what would Canada geese be doing high up over
 >Mt Rainier in late June? Heading for a molting lake, probably.
 >Could they reflect that much light? Certainly, particularly if
 >over ice.

Certainly?
This guy is confident but see below...

 >How about gulls? Well, which gulls are likely then?
 >It's a little ways inland, so Glaucous-winged Gull isn't likely,
 >but California Gull would be.>

 >The formation's possible: gulls may fly in ragged 'V's, but they
 >don't necessarily maintain uniformity in the vertical as they
 >might in the horizontal, and so gulls might fly in the formation
 >Arnold describes.

 >There's another possible candidate species in the area at that
 >time of year (sporadically) whose color, size, flight profile
 >and proclivity for formation flight at sometimes quite high
 >altitude would even more produce *every* detail of the
 >phenomenon which Arnold observed: a flock of non- or
 >failed-breeder southbound White Pelicans.

Would they produce _every_ detail Arnold observed? Draw A Map
(jeesh! How many times do I have to ask for a map that proves
that _birds_ could supply the dynamics reported by Arnold. I
supplied one and no one even commented. Maybe it never got
posted. So here it is again. Play with it.)

 >They'd have been large
 >enough to visible for a good distance,

A couple of miles, _maybe_ (they were seen nearly edge on.)
Their "fantastic" wingspan did not play a big role in this
sighting.

 >they fly in formation,

Great!

 >and if the light were reflecting just right off a large nearby
 >glaciated peak, their comparatively vast white underwing area
 >would reflect a *ton* of light in exactly the pattern described
 >by Arnold.

Too bad Arnold was viewing from above, eh? Oh, well, just modify
the hypothesis now that you know your basic assumption of seeing
the birds from below is wrong. Assume that vast expanse of wing
seen from slightly _above_ could reflect a "ton" of light...(etc.)
See below.

 >I'd submit that the hypothesis of a small southbound flock of
 >failed- or non-breeder American White Pelicans observed by
 >someone unfamiliar with underwing reflectivity would provide the
 >same phenomena and be at least as good an alternative
 >possibility than seeing artefacts from another planet.

 >Darn it".

Oh, don't sound so "down." Your brilliant (like reflecting
pelicans) theory still doesn't work, see below.

 >I could have written those same closing remarks.

Darn it, but you didn't. So he got there first.

 >Of course Arnold's sighting wasn't as a ground observer and if
 >birds were the source, any reflectivity wouldn't necessarily be
 >confined to the underwings.

True... with Arnold _above_ the birds the underwing reflection
would be only occasional, if at all, when the birds tilted. But
then there is a question: if the bird is east of Arnold, and the
bird is lower than Arnold and if you imagine a bird to a roughly
flat plate (at least when the wings are maximally extended to
reflect a "ton" of light), then, if you tilt the plate enough so
that Arnold can see the bottom of the plate (even though he is
above), how can this plate less than a mile away, reflect light
emanating from snow/ice on the side of Mount Rainier at
altitudes above about 8,000 ft?

Light traveling in severely bent paths maybe?

The only way this can work is if the light from the Glacier,
most of which was _above_ Arnold was reflected off the _tops_ of
the URs.

 >I previously wrote:

 >"I would only add a mention of the National Geographical
 >article, 'Pelican Profiles', which I recently located in the
 >November 1943 issue and records:

 >'I recall the day in the early thirties when a companion and I,
 >sight-seeing among the bubbling mud geysers on the eastern side
 >of the [Salton] sea, observed a hundred white birds manoeuvring
 >majestically in the sky. They played follow the leader.

 >Then they soared into the blue until only the sun, glinting on
 >white feathers, flashed their location'.>

Yes. _Glint_. That is the answer, but.... see below.
Unfortunately the direction to the sun and to the birds is not
given here, but the angle between birds and the sun may have
been relatively small (e.g., less than 20 degrees).

 >As I've said, this is proof these birds were reflective from a
 >considerable distance, even 'out of sight'."

Yes, when "close:" to the sun.

 >Clarke's experience is one of many which can further testify
 >that is correct.

 >I also previously noted:

 >"Bruce Maccabee, in his paper, 'The The Complete Sighting Report
 >of Kenneth Arnold.' states:

 >'It is important to notice how Arnold's attention was first
 >drawn to the presence of strange flying objects because his
 >initial observation rules out any explanation that is based on
t>hings in the sky which are not shiny (reflective, like a
 >mirror) such as, for example, birds'.">

Yes, and not placed in this statement is Arnold's claim that he
first saw the URs North of Mt. Rainier, and, of course, he last
saw them far SOUTH of Mt. Rainier.... as bright reflections.

 >I trust it is now proven that birds can be reflective, like a
 >mirror, and this equally applies when considering other 'UFO'
 >cases where that explanation may have been ruled out.

Reflective like a mirror? Whoops. Misplaced trust. See below.

 >Although not a common occurrence, it's still a surprise, as
 >Clarke himself said:

 >"This theory seemed so absurd that I dismissed it
 >contemptuously..."

 >...I would never have credited it without the evidence of my own
 >eyes.

 >The effect of oscillating metallic disks was absolutely
 >realistic; it would have fooled anyone".

Yes, but "anyone" was not in an airplane with a capability of
trying to chase these birds.

 >Perhaps coincidental, Clarke describes the birds as 'flipping'
 >and taken with the National Geographic article's narrative of
 >how White Pelicans 'flashed' their location, it's comparative to
 >Arnold's comments that the nine objects 'seemed to flip and
 >flash in the sun, just like a mirror", or, "I observed the
 >objects outlines plainly as they flipped and flashed in the
 >snow", or, "I watched them flip and flash in the sun".>

 >We can read too much into semantics of course and it wouldn't
 >only be birds that could 'flip and flash in the sun, just like a
 >mirror'.

 >Conversely, the significant point now established is that this
 >description could apply to birds.>

Yes, but not to birds in the Arnold sighting. See below.

 >So there you go, Arthur C. Clarke, of all people, unknowingly
 >describing in 1958 what may have been related to an explanation
 >for the 'unidentified objects' sighting which gave rise to
 >'flying saucers' in the first place.>

 >[Just a suggestion, please don't hit me...]

Well, you deserve to be hit for once again proposing with all
the confidence you can muster a theory without fully "wringing
it out" to see if it still flies after carfeful analysis./

First of all, regardless of reflection, where is your map that
proves birds can satisfy the dynamics?

My map is attached again. It's only an 8 k .gif file.

And now comes the reward for all you who have drudged through
this bird"stuff" once again. Yes, birds can have an _enhanced_
reflection under the right viewing conditions.

So can boards and bricks and even the blacktop road! Why is
this? The phenomenon of "forward gloss." When a moderately flat
diffuse (rough) surface... or a portion of a curved diffuse
surface...is viewed in such a way that the light "grazes" the
surface you can get an enhanced reflection. (Note: if there was
a "perfectly diffuse surface" which would appear rough at all
wavelengths of light and from all viewing directions then such a
surface would not have forward gloss. However, no real surface
meets these conditions. The enhanced reflection of forward gloss
still is not as bright as specular mirror reflection viewed
under the same conditions.)

This enhanced reflection might be quite bright if the reflecting
surface is itself a "bright" diffuse reflector, such as a white
surface. To get the enhanced reflection, the angle between the
reflecting surface and the light source itself must be very
small.... a few degrees, for example.

You can see this for yourself by taking almost any flat surface,
holding it up almost between yourself and the sun (or a light).
Now tilt it so that you are looking along the surface (the
sighting line is _nearly_parallel_ to the portion of the surface
which is reflectint light). You can play with the tilt to find
that the closer you get to having the sighting line parallel to
the surface, the brighter is the reflection. Even black velvet,
which is one of the "blackest" surfaces known, has a "gloss" or
"sheen" which can be seen when the viewing angle is correct.

Naturally, this also applies to birds. Let's immediately go the
the _optimum_ hypothesis for "forward glass" or "sheen" to apply
to the Arnold sighting of URs. Go back and look at the beginning
of this whole message and A.C. Clark's description of bright
reflections looking like saucers, but actually being birds
flying "above" the sun at or near sunset. Although he did not
state a number, it is apparent that there were not many degrees
of angle between the direction to the light source and the
direction to the sun. Hence Clark viewed the birds under optimum
conditions for forward gloss to occur.

But, in Arnold's case, the birds were nowhere "near" the sun.
Hence ornithologist Price suggests that the light source was
actually sunlight reflected from the ice and snow on Rainier. Of
course _most_ (perhaps all?) of this ice and snow was above 6000
ft (it was late June and Rainier is 14,400 ft high; snow from
6000 ft to the top) and Arnold viewed the URs from slightly
above.

Therefore the major source of light from the mountain would have
come from snow/ice that was higher than Arnold or the URs. This,
then, is the optimum stuation for reflection from the _tops_ of
the URs. (There might be a small portion possible from the
bottom but there was not much snow/ice at lower altitudes to
provide reflected light to illuminate the bottoms of the birds).

Now let's assume the URs were actually pelicans (or other birds)
east of Arnold. What might one expect under these conditions?

One might expect no sighting _until_ the birds were between
Arnold and Mt. Rainier, because there was no source of light
(and no reflective mountain) to cause the forward gloss to occur
and the birds were too far away to be detected by normal
reflection. Then, while the birds were between Arnold and Mt.
Rainier, one might expect Arnold to report that the objects
looked like bright flashes seen in a roughly periodic manner
(due to forward gloss), but the "flashers" were so far away he
couldn't see their shape.

THEN one might expect Arnold to report that he saw
them NO MORE after they passed Rainier (because
there was no longer a source of light in the direction
of the birds to cause the forward gloss)

In other words, it would have been a very short sighting...
and certainly not "startling".

Under these conditions one wonders
whether or not he would have reported seeing thin dark lines.
He would report this only if they were close
enough so that, when the wings weren't
oriented for optimum flash (gloss), they blocked a noticeable
amount of light coming
directly from the glacier to his eyes.

Furthermore, we know from his report that they must have been
close enough to give an impression of shape. If birds, then they
were within a mile or so and it is hard to imagine that he
wouldn't have realized that the "flipping and flashing" was
caused by wings flapping. And, of course, he could have outrun
them. DRAW A MAP.

So you see, since the sun could NOT have been the direct source
of light that might have caused forward gloss to occur, then the
"ton of light" could only have come from reflection of sunlight
off Mt Rainier, and this would occur only while the birds were
in the direction of Mt. Rainier.

I presume that Mr. Easton has pursued this bright reflection
hypothesis because I have argued in previous messages that a
metallic sunlight reflection could be seen from a distance much
greater than the distance at which a person could see the
reflector itself whereas a (normal) bird reflection could not be
seen farther than the distance at which a person could see the
bird itself, at least as a tiny bright dot against the
background sky.

Hence Arnold's report of being able to see the flashes at the
beginning of the sighting before he could see the objects,
during the sighting as they flew past Rainier and at the end of
the sighting after they were so far away he couldn't see the
objects, is consistent with a specular or mirror-like reflection
from a polished metal surface. In other words, Arnold could see
the reflection at a distance greater than the distance at which
the reflector itself would appear at least as a dot against the
sky.

On the other hand, Arnold's report is not consistent with a
normal bird reflection hypothesis because under normal
conditions the bird could only be seen by diffuse reflection and
would at least appear as a dot in the sky (brighter than the
sky, one presumes), i.e., one could actually see the body of the
bird.

The present "enhancement" of the bird reflection hypothesis is
based on the discovery that under optimum conditions of
alignment between the light source and the birds there can be an
enhanced reflection, in which it _might_ be that one could see
the reflection from the birds before one could actually make out
any details of the birds themselves. This is the situation as
reported by AC Clark. It _might_ apply to the situation as
reported by Arnold during the time the URs were between Arnold
and the mountain.

Uh, oh!

A thought just occurred to me: the forward gloss reflection
could not be brighter than the light source which is reflected.
Hmmmm. That means that even in the optimum forward gloss
condition the hypothetical reflection from birds would not be
brighter than the ice/snow would appear. On the other hand a
metallic (specular) reflection of direct sunlight could EASILY
be brighter than the maximum (diffuse or semidiffuse) reflection
from the snow/ice.

Back to the drawing board/

Reject!
Reject!
Draw A Map!
Reject!!







   UFO UpDates
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   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Aug > Aug 15

                       Socorro: The Zamora 'Insignia'

From: Robert Moore <ENGIMA9@compuserve.com>
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 15:28:27 -0400
Fwd Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 19:21:32 -0400
Subject: Socorro: The Zamora 'Insignia'


[Note, file attachments are not sent to the UFO UpDates
  Archive at UFO Mind --ebk]

Dear list,

Today, I read with considerable interest James Easton's recent
posting on his "UFO Research" email list, regarding a possible
"balloon" explanation cited recently for the "classic"  Lonnie
Zamora/Socorro New Mexico CE3 case, which (as you all know)
occurred on the 24th April 1964
......

The main gist of this claim reads as follows (following text
taken from James Easton's original  email):

<snip>

 >I'm not sure how well known [Larry] Robinson's published material is
 >known and perhaps surprisingly, or maybe not, I've only ever seen
 >it mentioned once, briefly, on any 'UFO' related forum. He
 >states:

 >"I believe I have solved the 1964 Socorro NM UFO case.  I not
 >only think I know what it was, but who owned it.  I have seen the
 >same thing here, and identified it.  Once, it flew so low over my
 >house that I could hear the occupants talking.  The intermittant
 >roar scared my dog.  I have seen it land and take off, and the
 >effects and sounds were identical to the descriptions in
 >Sanderson's and Hynek's books.  I even saw the tilting of the
 >elliptical shape, and heard the rise in pitch when the roar
 >ceased.

 >What was it?  A manned hot air balloon.  I didn't tumble to this
 >fully until I heard the rising pitch of the burner as the pilot
 >shut it down after a burn.  I have seen them start it up, and I
 >have witnessed a touch-and-go landing, as well as several end of
 >flight landings.  The only difference is the color.  Our local
 >balloon is green, with white advertizing for the owner's local
 >winery on the side.

 >I then remembered seeing an ad published in 1962 or 1963, showing
 >the development of this wonderful vehicle by the St. Regis Paper
 >Company.  My hobby at the time was aviation and model airplanes.
 >The ad was in a magazine in my social studies classroom (so I do
 >not know what magazine it was, but it had to do with business).
 >There was a beautiful picture of the balloon flying over the
 >northwest forests.  The company logo was on the side of the white
 >balloon.  The blurb said the balloon was going to fly an
 >exploratory mission around the western U.S. in 1963-64.  Get
 >this:  The company logo is A CIRCLE WITH AN ARROW IN IT,
 >POINTING UP.  Very similar to what Zamora reported.

 >Here's what I think happened.  Either the dump flap on the
 >balloon (for collapsing it after landing) accidentally opened
 >partway, or some other problem forced a landing.  The crew made
 >it right, and seeing a policeman approaching (with a possible
 >trespass arrest), set up the stand, turned the fans and burner
 >on, refilled the bag, and took off.  With a warm bag, this can be
 >done in one to three minutes.  The bag tilts from a horizontal
 >ellipse to a vertical one as it fills with hot air.  A man stands
 >near the bag to keep the mouth open with the stand and a pole.

 >Notice the flame blasts up from the basket into the balloon, just
 >as Zamora described.  The fan sounds like a gasoline engine
 >(which runs it), and the burner roars much louder.  The platform,
 >crew, and stand leave marks -at one end of the landing site!  The
 >bag probably did not.

 >This early balloon had a platform with a railing rather than a
 >solid basket, so Zamora didn't see the platform easily without
 >his glasses. Note that this may have been the only one of these
 >in the world at the time.  The sport developed from the St. Regis
 >balloon--the ad said they developed the burner.

 >The only discrepancies seem to be the size reported (Zamora
 >thought it was a car at first), and the speed of disappearance.
 >We know how hard it is to determine the size, speed, or distance
 >to an unfamiliar object without knowing at least one of them
 >accurately.  I have seen our local balloon go from hovering to
 >disappearing in the distance in under five minutes by rising into
 >moving air.  Add to that the loss of Zamora's glasses and the
 >balloon could easily have been lost to sight quickly".

<snip>

Incidentally, I had already come across Larry Robinson's website
about a year or so previously  - where he originally put forward
his solution for the Socorro incident - and have been surprised
on not hearing any mention of his claim within UFO circles.

Logging onto the website address of the "International Paper"
Company (which was given in Easton's original email), I
downloaded the .gif depicting their company logo. I then
increased it's size slightly - unfortunately, some minor loss
of definition occurred during this process -  and beneath their
logo I have pasted a depiction of the UFO's "insignia" drawn by
L. Zamora himself back in 1964.

I have attached the .jpg showing this composite image to this
email.  As you can see, the "International Paper" logo shares
more than a passing resemblance to the Zamora 1964 "UFO"
insignia.  On this alone, this "new" proposed explanation for
the Socorro incident clearly requires further pursual and
comment by the UFO community.

Robert Moore,
I.U.N.

zamora2.JPG





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Aug > Aug 15

                              More on Seti@home

From: Sean Jones <tedric@tedric. demon. co. uk>
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 1999 22:20:11 +0100
Fwd Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 18:10:39 -0400
Subject: More on Seti@home


This is an excellent non-subscriber post on Seti@home I have
forwarded it from whom I received it.

----------------

Subject: Re: SETI@Home
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 03:11:27 -0400 (EDT)
From: "O'Regan, Emlyn" <Emlyn. ORegan@actew. com. au>
Reply-To: larryniven-l@bucknell. edu
To: Multiple recipients of list <larryniven-l@bucknell. edu>

Following is an excellent post by Robert Bradbury about
SETI@home, and SIs (super intelligences) from the Extropians
list. Unfortunately, it explains quite eloquently why SETI@home
(and SETI itself) likely wont be successful. Sorry to delurk
just to throw a spanner in the works.

There are other things that you can do with spare cycles,
however. . .

Emlyn


 >Well the fact of the matter is: you can't really say for sure
 >what a SI will want to do with its time. You can blather on
 >all day, but it's all a guess.

I can't "say for sure" that we won't get blown to bits by
a near-earth crossing asteroid tomorrow morning. All I can
do is argue that it is very unprobable and construct my life
around that premise. The people doing SETI@home, IMHO,
are doing a lot of work with a poor apreciation for the
very low probability of success. Which to my mind is sad
because with a little work we could move forward on multiple
fronts instead of only one.

 >In fact you can't even be
 >completely sure that there are even any SIs in this universe.

True, but I can sift a body of evidence and create a reasonable
argument that the number of SIs hugely outweighs the number of
nearby civilizations at our level.

Some of this evidence would include:

(a) 90% of the mass in the galaxy is "missing".

(b) The gravitational microlensing researchers have done
simulations based on their *observed* frequency of gravitational
microlensing events and postulate there are *400 billion*
objects with masses averaging 0. 3 Solar masses they *can't see*
orbiting our galaxy. That is about 2x the number of stars that
we can see.

(c) Astronomers looking at other galaxies don't see the number
of Red giant stars they expect. In some cases there seems to be
evidence of an IR "glow" (which they attribute to dust).

(d) Kardashev and a couple of other Russian astronomers have
gone through the IRAS data (the best infrared survey data we
have so far) and have discovered some interesting anomalies in
the directional distribution of "cold" objects around our
galaxy.

(e) The stars in the galactic halo in globular clusters are very
low in metal (meaning they are very old, perhaps older than the
best estimates of the age of the universe -- or that they may be
the leftovers from SI metal extracting mining operations).

(f) M-brain architectures (layered supercomputers surrounding
stars) seem to be optimal computing architectures for many
problems and have heat emission signatures that are very
difficult to detect using current technologies.

So taking Ockham's Razor, which of the following would you
choose:

(1) That the longest lived "entities" in the galaxy will be
technological civilizations that have evolved to the limits
allowed by *known* physics (which as far as I can tell are
something like M-brains).

(2) That the galactic halo consists of strange "concentrations"
of brown dwarfs orbiting small black holes (one proposed
explanation using "known" astronomical objects without any
theory as to how such things came to be formed).

(3) That the galactic halo is composed of mysterious "new"
particles (WIMPs) that explain at least (a) and (b) above?

Since SETI has been unsuccsessful so far, people have argued
for lowering the frequencies for some of the Drake Eqn parameters.
Some prefer to mess with f_l (evolving life), some with f_i
(intelligent life), or f_c (communicative life) but then you
always end up arguing that we shouldn't exist and you are
bucking the trends in current findings in astronomy & biology.

As we ourselves provide evidence that most of the parameters in
the Drake equation lead to the development of intelligent,
communicative "technological civilizations" (TCs) and doing
*any* SETI work assumes there are at least 2 TCs, then, one is
really concerned with the final "L" parameter of the equation:
"the mean Lifetime TC's are in a "communicative state".

Given the FERMI Paradox ("I see no aliens") and the lack of SETI
success lots of handwaving has to be done to explain why TC's
pass out of a communicative state.

So lets examine this with the "UFE" (Universal Fatality Equation):

Pa = the probability a civilization is knocked out by an Accident
  (asteroid, comet, blazar, supernova, etc. ) and stays knocked out

Pd = the probability that a civilization De-evolves or decays away
  (i. e. once you have evolved survival and preservation instincts
and intelligence, somehow you "lose" them; this might include
losing an interest in space. )

Pn = the probability of *No* nanotechnology (even after thousands of
  years of R&D)

Ps = the probability of permanent Stagnation (either environmentally-
  or self-imposed) at some "level of growth" beneath the limits
  imposed by physics (your material/energy limits)

Now, if Pa + Pd + Pn + Ps = 1 for *all* technological civilizations
that have ever evolved (in billions of years of galactic history),
then:

No technological civilization in our galaxy has ever evolved to the
limits imposed by known physics -- i. e. No SIs.

This is a the inversion of (1) above. There are some
interesting interactions in this equation, because as you reduce
Pa or Pd, you probably increase Pn which in turn may reduce Ps.
Of course one can argue that an increased Pn causing a
singularity of the grey goo type increases Pa, but you have to
argue it for all civilizations.

[I'm open to suggestions on how to improve the UFE. ]

Unless you argue a very low level of TCs (which makes SETI@home
kind of silly), or for the universal application of the UFE,
then I don't think you can escape the evolution of SIs. If even
a single SI evolved more than ~100,000 years ago, then you have
to accept that our galaxy should theoretically be at Kardashev
Type III Civilization level (i. e. extensively developed). Sagan
and other showed many years ago that even using "current-level"
technologies, interstellar travel is feasible. That means that
whole-galaxy colonization is possible and would occur in short
time periods (millions of years). Nanoprobe colonization
managed by SIs makes it happen much faster.

Why hasn't everything been colonized?If you take (a-e) above,
it would appear that most of it *has* been colonized. Whether
SIs do in fact colonize (or whether many or all SIs evolve
locally) and whether they fight over resources remain
interesting questions.

Why do we still see stars? My best explanations to date is that
the central part of the galaxy isn't a very safe place to be
(black holes, blazars, supernovas, etc. ) and its simply not
worth the time and energy trying to keep the garden weeded. The
other possibility is along the lines that Greg has proposed
which kind of evolves from John Ball's "Zoo hypothesis", which
is that perhaps the centers of galaxies (with all of their
natural "hazards") are used for cultural/meme breeding grounds.
Or perhaps after billions of years of existence and consuming a
majority of the available matter/energy SIs have just lost
interest in it. Or it may be the least expensive way to breed an
increasing supply of materials that can be used to store their
prodigious memories.

So lets fit the observationional data to the theories --

Either

- They are here watching everything we say and do (because
nanotechnology seems within the laws of physics *and*
nanotechnology allows this level of "spying" undetected by us.
Since they haven't "contacted" us it isn't because they aren't
able, it is because they have reasons for not doing so.

or

- They aren't here and are simply content to watch us from afar.
(Because they certainly have the observing capacity to
continuously monitor the development of our planet. ) or - They
are completely disinterested in us -- we are beneath the
nematodes.

Now, it would appear that the development time for a
technological civilization from the pre-radio stage to the
post-singularity stage is ~100 years on a planet similar to
ours. In the post-singularity stage, you don't communicate with
"broadcast" radio-waves -- you communicate with tightly focused
high power lasers aimed directly at the person you want to talk
with (presumably another SI) because you then have the
technology to find them and directed optical communication
provides the highest bandwidth at the lowest energy cost. It is
worth noting that this idea is slowly catching on in the SETI
community and there have been several conferences devoted to
Optical SETI.

So, for the SETI@home project to work, as has been suggested, by
"evesdropping" on similar level civilizations, they would have
to be within ~100 light years of us. If they are beyond that
their signals would have already passed us by. If you plug the
number of Earth-like planet supporting stars in 100 cubic light
years into the Drake equation (rather than the number of stars
in the galaxy) then your probability of success gets very small.
It is also true that the calculations on the power levels
required (for a continuous omnidirectional signal) require a
level of civilization that we won't reach for some 10's of
years. So the detection "non-intentional" signals from a
civilization like ours is limited to something like 10-20
light-years, further lowering your Drake Equation probability.
Once you get to the level of civilization where you can send a
high-power signal omnidirectionally (or have sufficiently good
telescopes that you can see planets where someone might be
listening for a low power directional signal) you are very near
the singularity boundary. For us, NASA may get the "Terrestrial
Planet Finder" spacecraft up around 2010 *iff* they stay on the
current proposed schedule. So if we use our own civilization
as a benchmark, we might have the power and/or know where to
send a signal by perhaps 2020. That looks to be to be pretty
close to singularity time.

I will acknowledge that using our civilization as a predictor
for development paths of other civilizations is a really poor
statistical exercise, but its the best we can do at this point.

So, when I go through all this stuff carefully, I reach the
conclusion that SETI@home will not work and people have just
been hoodwinked. Now, this is being done by people who don't
know about nanotech, don't really understand computer (and
therefore SI) architectures, and who would be shocked by
concepts such as "uploading". I'm not against them, I plan to
educate them and perhaps if I'm lucky change a few minds.

However, this is the Extropian forum, so I feel pretty
comfortable telling the people here (who are aware of the afore
mentioned concepts), that you are being really silly if you
think this will work.

 >So you are saying there is nothing currently available better
 >than SETI@Home to spend your time on? Or did I misunderstand.

No, the 2MASS data is available. They have released part of it
in a very compressed form. However, you would have to write the
application yourself to compute the black body radiation curves
from the data (not very difficult I believe).

The question is whether you have "thinking" time to spend on it
or just "computer" time. If you have just computer time there
isn't any game other than SETI@home. But to my mind you should
put the SETI@home computers in suspend mode and donate the value
of the electricity saved to an organization that can pay someone
to write a competing application to do an analysis of the 2MASS
data. That is because the 2MASS data *will* produce interesting
things, though due to the frequencies they use in ground
observations, I would say the probability for SIs, unless they
are nearby, is low. Though not as low as SETI@home because there
are potentially many more long-lived SIs than nearby
life-supporting planets. in their radio-communications stage.

After they start releasing the Sloan Digital Sky Survey data in
a couple of years the Sloan data and the 2MASS data combined
will give you I think 8 data points to compute the temperature
of each object. Then there will be plenty of work for all the
computers we can lay our hands on. We will still however be
limited because to get the frequencies where the cold SIs are
the brightest (and therefore most detectable at a distance)
requires a space-based survey. NASA and ESA are working on such
spacecraft but I don't think they go up until after 2005 and
even then I suspect the data will be difficult for us to get for
a while. ]

 >>software to process the 2MASS data and then we would
 >>have a crack at finding those darn SuperIntelligences.

 >Why that's a great idea! Instead of spending your time dissing
 >everything, you could actually take some of the advances the
 >SETI people have made in distributed computing and use it
 >for something else!

First you have to get the SETI people to see the possibility,
and since they have been at this for nearly 35 years in the face
of virtually no results, it is going to take some *strong*
arguments to shake their "faith".

I'm only at the beginning of this road and didn't realize that
the 2MASS data was available until about a week ago. I strongly
agree that the distributed computing model is a great way to go
for astronomy research as well as promoting interest in space.
What I'm dissing on is the fact that the SETI people gloss over
some of the details (like the transmitter power requirements)
that make people think the probability for aliens that we can
communicate with is >>1 instead of << 1. You never hear about
these things unless you delve into
the literature in some detail.

 >Let me know when you
 >have that software for the 2MASS stuff ready. Ok? Ok.

It will be September at least before I have a chance to talk to
people. What I'm going to try to do (given this discussion) is
see if I can convince the SETI@home people to talk to the 2MASS
people.

 >>6th cousin, twice removed from the
 >>S. F. Author "Raymond Douglas Bradbury"

 >What, is that a name drop or what?

I'm going to have to add more smileys for you, thats for
sure. . . . People often acuse me of going way out on a limb, so I
like to provide them with a genetic explantion for it. :-)

Ah noooo, its my genes doing it to me again. . .
Conscious evolution will never work. . .

Robert



--
In an infinite universe infinitely anything is possible.
  Sean Jones
  Homepage--http://www. geocities. com/Area51/Zone/1745/index. htm
UFO page--http://www. tedric. demon. co. uk/









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Aug > Aug 15

               Re: Black helicopters in Jane's Defence Weekly

From: Terry Blanton <commengr@bellsouth.net>
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 1999 23:54:15 -0700
Fwd Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 18:29:13 -0400
Subject: Re: Black helicopters in Jane's Defence Weekly


 >From: GT McCoy <gtmccoy@harborside.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
 >Subject: Re: Black helicopters in Jane's Defence Weekly
 >Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 20:17:55 -0700

 >Hello, all (Thank God this doesn't involve Pelicans.)

Yes, agreed! How dead can one horse be?

 >This has been tried before; Curtiss- yes the builder of the P-40
 >of WW11-had built the X-22 which was a Tilt-Rotor (4, two in
 >front two in back on a King Air (B-200) type fuselage.

 >The X-22 was equipped with Four wide cord, short propellers. Two
 >problems: not enough lift for the power, and the complexity of
 >the trasmissions. However the X-22 was quiet in the
 >propeller/rotor area but it used four very noisy gas turbines,
 >RR Darts I believe.

Yep, I remember the X-22. But technology has advanced
considerably.

With today's composits, I have no problem with the small rotors,
but overall lift becomes the issue. You must increase the
angular velocity of the rotor to compensate, which means more
horsepower from the turbines and more noise.

But, look at the audio phase inversion technology today. I think
it is the automaker Infinity which reduces the interior noise of
its cars by taking a sample of the exterior noise and rapidly
creating the same signal 180 degrees out of phase. You pump this
audio signal into the car body with acoustic transducers and
lots of power and the result is cancellation of engine and road
noise.

I have seen a similar system in home use. It puts a microphone
in the airducts which samples the fan noise and inverts the
received signal. By feeding the inverted signal back into the
ductwork at a point further down (the distance to that point is
a function of the electronic processing delay to create the
inverted signal), you can reduce the air noise by 20 dB or more.

Another system involves the use of headphones which are fed an
inverted signal. I saw that one on the Discovery Channel.

To make it work on a chopper requires kilowatts of acoustic
amplification to cancel the turbine noise. But, hey, with the
money they have to spend, there is no doubt in this electrical
engineering consultant's mind that this is a doable project.

I bet you can make a small bladed helicopter with multiple
turbines which can purr like a kitten.

Personally, I would prefer to see a quieter air conditioning
system. <g>

Terry





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   Aug > Aug 15

             Re: Research Release: 'USAAF' UFO Research Pre-1947

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 00:29:48 -0400
Fwd Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 18:30:56 -0400
Subject: Re: Research Release: 'USAAF' UFO Research Pre-1947


 >From: Wendy Connors <ProjectSign@email.msn.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
 >Subject: Research Release: 'USAAF' UFO Research Pre-1947
 >Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 11:07:33 -0600


 >Research Release:

 >On a recent research trip to Dayton, Ohio, Wendy Connors and
 >Mike Hall recovered some new information that directly impacts
 >the historical record of Ufology. This information comes from a
 >very knowledgable and inside source to the inner workings of
 >Project's SIGN, Grudge and Blue Book. This source desires to
 >remain unnamed at this point in time and both Mike and I will
 >certainly honor his desires. No discussion as to who the source
 >might be will be entertained by us. This source did, however,
 >work directly with the people comprising SIGN, Grudge and Blue
 >Book for many years and was not only friends, but part of a good
 >old boy's network within T-2.>

 >The following information is shared with all of our fellow
 >researchers:

Thanks for this information.  Perhaps this is the beginning of
the "second track" of saucer/UFO information outside normal
channels which has been long suspected!





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   Aug > Aug 15

               Re: Black helicopters in Jane's Defence Weekly

From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net>
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 01:58:47 -0700
Fwd Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 18:34:40 -0400
Subject: Re: Black helicopters in Jane's Defence Weekly


 >Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 21:58:39 +0000
 >From: dave bowden <dave.bowden@cableinet.co.uk>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
 >Subject: Re: Black helicopters in Jane's Defence Weekly

 >>Date: Fri, 31 Aug 1956 10:29:49 +0000
 >>From: Josh Goldstein <clearlt@pacbell.net>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Black helicopters in Jane's Defence Weekly

 >>>Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 09:44:15 -0700
 >>>From: Steven J. Dunn <SDunn@LOGICON.COM>
 >>>Subject: Black helicopters in Jane's Defence Weekly
 >>>To: UFO Updates <updates@globalserve.net>,

 >>>Dear List members:

 >>>There in an article in the 28 July 1999 issue of _Jane's Defence
 >>>Weekly_ that may be of interest to members of the list. It is
 >>>entitled, "The Disappearing Helicopter" and, in highly
 >>>non-ufologically-oriented style (as would be expected), deals
 >>>with the "black helicopter" phenomon.

 >>>Ex: "There is a persistent legend, fostered by occasional
 >>>eye-witness testimony, that the US government has developed a
 >>>helicopter so stealthy that part of its repertoire includes the
 >>>ability to run silently."

 >>>Groom Lake and tests in the SW US are also prominently
 >>>mentioned.

 >Hi Josh,

 >>This is most interesting. I'll have to check out that issue of
 >>Jane's. I have been aware of black helicopter reports for many
 >>years. I have seen reports of "silent running". As a former Huey
 >>(UH-1) pilot (175th Assault Helicopter Company, "The Outlaws") I
 >>flew the choppers with the loudest flapping blades. I can't
 >>imagine what rotor blage design or other technology would create
 >>a silent helicopter. Does anyone out there in Updates universe
 >>have any ideas?

 >Yep, anyone talking about 'silent helo's' has seen one too many
 >episodes of Blue Thunder. As you quite rightly pointed out it's
 >the rotors that make the noise.

 >It would be 'physically' impossible to create a silent running
 >helicopter.

 >I wish they could though, I live very near to a military base
 >and on more than one occasion I have been woken up in the early
 >hours of the morning by the 'whop whop whop' of those noisy
 >bastards flying past my house.

 >I'm in two minds whether I should get myself one of those
 >do-it-yourself SAM site kits for the back yard.

 >There's a special on at B&Q's at the moment.

 >If you're interested in stealth-helicopters check out the
 >Russian 'Black Shark' now there's a piece of kit.

 >Still as noisy as hell but at least the radar guy won't see it.

 >Dave.

Hello all:

I'm no expert in aircraft, but can only pass on what a
'specialist' assigned to Vietnam told me. He was there servicing
special radios to monitor enemy troop movements, a story in
itself.

There were no "silent" copters. But, he said that there were
some that were so quiet that they could race up to a bunch of
cong in the field, and spray them with gunfire before they could
take cover. They had no advance warning like one might expect
from those noisy ordinary jobs you can hear a mile away.

They had some special pods on the tips of the rotor blades, if I
recall correctly. These did something to minimize or counteract
the normal swish-swish or whop whop noise. This is back in the
early 1970s mind you.

Best wishes

- Larry Hatch






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   Aug > Aug 16

                          Roswell Rods On NBC Show

From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@get2net.dk>
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 03:06:29
Fwd Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 18:56:12 -0400
Subject: Roswell Rods On NBC Show


Source: "alt.alien.visitors".

Stig

***

From: skepticaled@webtv.net (E. L.)
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors
Subject: Rods in Roswell, N.M.
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 1999 16:38:04 -0400 (EDT)


Tune in to "You Asked For It", Sunday, Aug. 15, on NBC-TV, at 8
p.m., EST, and see Jose Escamilla present his footage of rods.
The segment is described as "...new UFO phenomena in Roswell,
N.M."

Of course, they're not UFOs but an
undiscovered-as-yet-by-science living organism that flies in the
face of logic (pun definitely intended!).

TV Rod Man, Edward Lopez, NYC.








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               'Ferris Wheel' UFO - Logan Village, Brisbane OZ

From: Diane Harrison - Keith Basterfield Network <tkbnetw@fan.net.au>
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 09:20:06 +1000
Fwd Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 18:51:01 -0400
Subject: 'Ferris Wheel' UFO - Logan Village, Brisbane OZ


The Keith Basterfield Network Australasia
http://www.fan.net.au/~tkbnetw/new

Multiple witnesses sight UFO Ferris wheel near Logan Village
42klm from Brisbane City.

OZ File 15.08.1999

Interview has been arranged with other witnesses  Wednesday

Date: 15.08.1999
Time: 9.15pm
Location: Logan Village. Bobermien Road
Duration of sighting: 20 minutes
Observation: 45 degrees to the horizon
Direction:Westerly direction to Jimboomba Township
Shape: Ferris wheel
Size: 50 cent piece at arms length
Lights: Colour white, 50 or more
Weather: Some cloud mostly clear
Number of sightees: 6

Hi everyone

Jennifer said she had just walked outside to have a smoke and
noticed her neighbour looking up at an object in the sky  this
object had two rings of lights one ring going clock wise the
other going anti-clock wise it was beautiful to look at.

I ran inside and got my sister and my husband and they watched
it as well. I then got on the phone and rang my father to see if
he could see it he said he couldn't. I rang my mother who lives
close to Brisbane to see she could see it, but she couldn't and
she said the Brisbane EKKA didn't seem to have any light shows
that she was aware of that night.

It was amazing, the lights on the object turned very fast one
ring in a clockwise direction the other set in a anti-clockwise
direction. One ring of lights left the other ring of  lights by
moving away then it moved back again. It did this for some time
then it just disappeared.

It was great we we're all so excited at what we had seen I
decided to call Channel 7 news and they didn't want to know?. So
I tried Channel 9 news and they gave us your number.


More details to come I will keep you all posted.

Regards Diane Harrison
Co Director The Australian UFO Research Network
Australian Skywatch Director





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                     Strange Lights Puzzle The Watchers

From: Dave Ledger <dledger@cableinet.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 01:11:52 +0100
Fwd Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 19:01:34 -0400
Subject: Strange Lights Puzzle The Watchers


FYI folks.
--
==================================================================
If you see someone without a smile......give them one of yours :)
******************************************************************
Posted by: Dave Ledger  (mailto:UFOSCOT@cableinet.co.uk)


ICQ No: #4851425

****************************************************************
** THE TRUTH IS JUST AROUND THE CORNER!..................BUT HOW
FAR?
================================================================

"The sands of time are trickling away from our dear mother Earth
and yet we continue to fight amongst ourselves and destroy our
natural enviroment, leaving all the mess for our children and
their children's children to inherit when we're gone."


Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 18:16:48 -0400
From: Neil Cunningham <106015.2402@compuserve.com>
Subject: Strange lights puzzle the watchers.
To: Dave Ledger <dledger@cableinet.co.uk>


Strange Lights Puzzle The Watchers

Cornwall Gaurdian Newspaper
12/8/99


Mysterious lights were seen in Cornwalls skies during the total
eclipse yesterday morning and their images have been captured on
video.

Two Bodmin families totalling 11 people including children, were
amoung the groups that saw three balls of light hovering in the
darkness before shootinmg off at high speed, in a southerely
direction, as daylight returned.

Adrian Crocker, 39 a professional meteorologist, was with his
wife and children in a neighbours back garden in Pethbridge
Drive, Bodmin, when he saw three lights, grabbed his video
camera and zoomed in on them.

"They were completley spherical and were hovering for about a
minute during the period of totallity, "he said.

"All eleven of us saw them, either with the
naked eye or later when I played the tape back.

"The only difference between what we saw and what is on tape is
the clour.The tape shows them as white, but actually they looked
orange".

St. Austell based professional cameraman Tim Farrow, who was
filming the eclipse on open ground near Roche, said that he had
captured "some strange images" on video tape.

Speaking only minutes after arriving back at his office after
recording the eclipse, he said"I have had a quick look at my
footage and there is something that looks like a fast moving
object.

"I'm going to check it out properly before I say any more, other
than I, ve never seen anything like it and I don, t think it is
any evert caused by the eclipse itself."

---

Also in same newspaper, different article it goes on to say:

Some skywatchers in Cornwall, however, say they saw things
yesterday that they were not looking for....UFO, s.

There were many reports of hovering balls of light being spotted
during the period of totall darkness, which shot off in a
southerly direction as soon as light returned.Whole families and
complete strangers standing next to each other clain to have
witnessed the phenomena, which was captured on video.

All in all, it was a strange kind of day.





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   Aug > Aug 16

                           'Roswell' In Tennessee?

From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@get2net.dk>
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 04:49:51
Fwd Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 19:06:09 -0400
Subject: 'Roswell' In Tennessee?


Source: "alt.paranet.ufo" and "alt.ufo.reports".

Stig

***

From: "marsman" <OneFoot@Hotbot.com>
Subject: There may be another "Roswell"
Newsgroups: alt.paranet.ufo

Followup-To: alt.paranet.ufo

In 1931, near Jasper, a rural community in East Tennessee, the
local weekly newspaper reported that a group of farmers found
what looked to them to be a newly wrecked delivery van in a
clump of trees on Mike Cabiness' farm more than a mile from the
nearest road. Near the wreck was what most of the farmers in the
newspaper articles said look to them like a "pig slaughter."

One farmer, a Brown I think, said he didn't think the dead
things were pigs, that "the legs didn't look right."

In any case, the article reports that the county judge had a
look, then telegraphed a U.S. Senator from Tennessee, a friend
of his, and reported the incident because it all seemed very
wrong to him.

The next day, a group of U.S. Army officers from Ft. Bragg, N.C.
arrived, took their own look, then hired the ice delivery truck
from the local ice plant and hauled the meat and bones away
packed in ice.

The "van" was hauled away the next day by a troop of soldiers

--
Posted via Talkway - http://www.talkway.com
Exchange ideas on practically anything (tm).

********************************************************

From: "bill.watson" <xxx.fun@torrid.org>
Subject: 1930s newspaper clippings
Newsgroups: alt.ufo.reports
X-Client-NNTP-Posting-Host: 140-114.lnj.com/169.137.140.114
Followup-To: alt.ufo.reports

About the collection of newspaper clippings in the University of
Tennessee library about the "pig slaughter" and the delivery van
smashed into trees a mile from any road back in the early 1930s?
Marsman has it wrong in some areas. There is no Jasper "County"
in east Tennessee, there is a Jasper "town," though. It's small
and rural, near Chattanooga, where I grew up.

And I remember my uncles and my father talking on Sunday
afternoons sometimes about the time an army plane crashed on our
cousin's farm near Jasper and the pilot was naked and all cut up
when he and his neighbors found it. What was always a mystery to
Dad and the others was that the army brought in several
truckloads of soldiers to surround the farm while they were
loading the dead pilot in ice and carrying him and his plane
both off.

I just wonder if the newspaper clippings record something about
this old family legend we have, except for the "pig" twist?

-- Posted via Talkway - http://www.talkway.com Exchange ideas on





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   Aug > Aug 16

                  Sam Sherman's Site On Edwards AFB Pursuit

From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@get2net.dk>
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 04:58:08
Fwd Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 19:15:36 -0400
Subject: Sam Sherman's Site On Edwards AFB Pursuit


Source: "alt.paranet.ufo".

Stig

***

From: Sam Sherman <flexaret2@aol.com>
Newsgroups: alt.paranet.ufo
Subject: U.S. AIR FORCE UFO PURSUIT- DECLASSIFIED!

from: flexaret2@aol.com (S. Sherman) 8-12-99

Website:

http://www.edwardsufo.com)


Authentic declassified materials from the Department of the Air
Force documents the Air Force pursuit of UFOs at Edwards AFB on
7Oct65.

The all-new website features audio recordings of Air Force
personnel on UFO alert plus visual documents. Verify it
yourself.

See the website

http://www.edwardsufo.com.





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             Re: 'Ferris Wheel' UFO - Logan Village, Brisbane OZ

From: Diane Harrison - Keith Basterfield Network <tkbnetw@fan.net.au>
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 21:16:09 +1000
Fwd Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 19:24:32 -0400
Subject: Re: 'Ferris Wheel' UFO - Logan Village, Brisbane OZ


More witnesses sight UFO Ferrist wheel
Marsden 38klm from Brisbane City.
OZ File 15.08.1999

Interview has been arranged with other sightees
Wednesday also

Date: 15.08.1999
Time: Approx 8.50pm
Location: Hickory St residents, Marsden, Brisbane
Duration of sighting: 40 minutes
Observation: 45 degrees to the horizon
Direction: Westerly direction towards Jimboomba & Beaudesert.
Shape: Ferris wheel lying on its side
Size: Size of foot ball field
Lights: Colour white, 50 or more
Weather: Some cloud mostly clear
Number of sightees: 4
_________________________________________

Hi everyone the plot has now thickened more people  have now come forward
to report the strange wheel in the sky on Saturday 14th 08 1999.
_________________________________________

Summary of more to come.

4 residents of Hickory St Marsden have today reported  seeing
the UFO Ferris wheel.

(1) Witness Miss Sharn J called the Hotline to ask if  anyone
had seen strange lights in the sky on Saturday night around
8.50pm.

Sharn said: It was awesome the size of a  foot ball field  it
had  2 rows of lights turning in opposite directions. The object
was laying on its side, it reminded me of  Close Encounters the
movie and do you know not one of us was scared of  it "not at
all" I was so excited. I ran over to my neighbour who was
outside and asked  him to look up "can you see what I see" he
looked and  said sh---t and ran inside telling me he was going
to call  someone he looked really scared ha!. My friends and I
went over to the park to get a clearer look. It was so cold but
no one wanted to go inside to get our jackets we didn't want to
miss a moment of it.

We could see the reflection of the lights on the clouds  turning
very fast then when the cloud moved it disappeared.

Question: Could it have been a Laser light show.

A: No way we couldn't see any other light source coming from the
ground, thats was what we first thought it might have been.

________________________________________

Investigator Report at present:

At present I have contacted The Beenleigh Police and  have been
informed by Peter from operations.

The only thing they had out  that night was a helicopter out
looking for a young boy who had gone missing  earlier that
evening.

I informed Peter why I was calling and asked if anyone had
reported strange lights that night. He said he was  working on
Saturday evening and nothing had been called in of that nature
he was aware of.  He said he was happy to pass any enquires back
to us.

I called most of the local Clubs in the area from Waterford to
Jimboomba to see if they had light shows in progress at that
time nothing to report.

Still under investigation
More to come I will keep you informed.

Regards Diane Harrison

Co Director The Australian UFO Research Network Australian
Skywatch Director.

The Keith Basterfield Network Australasia
E-Mail  tkbnetw@fan.net.au
http://www.fan.net.au/~tkbnetw/new
UFO Australian  Research Network Hot Line Number
Free Call Any state anytime 1800 77 22 88







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             Re: Research Release: 'USAAF' UFO Research Release

From: Wendy Connors <ProjectSign@email.msn.com>
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 07:56:20 -0600
Fwd Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 20:43:49 -0400
Subject: Re: Research Release: 'USAAF' UFO Research Release


 >Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 00:29:48 -0400
 >From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >Subject: Re: Research Release: 'USAAF' UFO Research Pre-1947
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>

 >>From: Wendy Connors <ProjectSign@email.msn.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
 >>Subject: Research Release: 'USAAF' UFO Research Pre-1947
 >>Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 11:07:33 -0600

 >>Research Release:

 >>On a recent research trip to Dayton, Ohio, Wendy Connors and
 >>Mike Hall recovered some new information that directly impacts
 >>the historical record of Ufology. This information comes from a
 >>very knowledgable and inside source to the inner workings of
 >>Project's SIGN, Grudge and Blue Book. This source desires to
 >>remain unnamed at this point in time and both Mike and I will
 >>certainly honor his desires. No discussion as to who the source
 >>might be will be entertained by us. This source did, however,
 >>work directly with the people comprising SIGN, Grudge and Blue
 >>Book for many years and was not only friends, but part of a good
 >>old boy's network within T-2.>

 >>The following information is shared with all of our fellow
 >>researchers:


 >Thanks for this information.  Perhaps this is the beginning of
 >the "second track" of saucer/UFO information outside normal
 >channels which has been long suspected!

Hi Bruce,

It is probably too soon to entertain this possibility, but I
certainly agree that from the various subtlties in documents,
etc. over the years that a strong possibility exists that
saucer/UFO information outside normal channels may have existed
or is currently being engaged. However, this new information,
even though it comes from an incredibly solid source, is still
in the research stage by both Mike and myself. We are hard at
work attempting to gather secondary sources in order to cement
this small element into finality.

We do believe the information we received has a high validity
point based upon two factors at this time, but we do want more
clarification. First, the source is excellent and is
credentialed. Secondly, the fact that just suddenly McCoy at T-2
is sending Loedding to the Pentagon to work with Dr. Carroll in
June 1947 does not make sense itself. In other words, it is
illogical that just at the drop of the hat that the Pentagon
OIN/AFOIN/AFBIN (gotta keep some people happy here so they don't
have a heart attack <g>) suddenly wants a liaison from T-2 to
come and arrange for a flying disc investigation. The written
requirments of T-2 were to analyze and evaluate all Air
Intelligence and ensure that information was sent up the chain
of command. It does seem logical that those heading T-2 may have
been looking and analyzing the very early disc sighting reports
slowly coming in and felt that a possible national security
issue may be immenent. Thus, feelers of possibility and concern
were sent up to the Pentagon for consideration and from there
the conclusion was reached that this high probability warranted
a closer look...thus, the liaison function begins for the
preparation of an official investigation (analysis) begins. Mike
and I certainly have about 10,000 questions we desire to ask and
that opportunity will occur in the next couple of months. We
certainly will keep the ufological community informed as to our
progress, but all of this should still be denoted as a
preliminary finding at this stage.

Wendy Connors
Project SIGN Research Center
www.projectsign.com








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                          BWW Media Alert 19990815

From: BufoCalvin@aol.com
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 12:40:48 EDT
Fwd Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 20:44:46 -0400
Subject: BWW Media Alert 19990815


Bufo Calvin
P O Box 5231, Walnut Creek, CA 94596
Internet: BufoCalvin@aol.com
Website: <A
HREF="http://members.aol.com/bufocalvin">http://members.aol.com/bufocalvin<;/A>
<A HREF="http://www.onelist.com/subscribe/bwnl">Bufo's WEIRD NEWS LINKS</A>
<A
HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/redirect-home/bufosweirdworld">Link
to Amazon.com</A>
ALL RIGHTS RESERVED (permission is granted to reproduce or redistribute this
edition of Bufo's WEIRD WORLD provided that attribution is made to
http://members.aol.com/bufocalvin. It is good etiquette to check with
strangers before you e-mail them something. If you forward this, please make
sure it is clear that you are forwarding it).

August 15, 1999

By next week, this may be coming to you via Onelist, due to certain
conveniences.  If you have any comment on the proposed switch, please let me
know.

I've also had a request to mark re-runs (repeat showings) as such.  I don't
always know, given the broad range of material that I cover.  However, the
vast majority of the shows listed here are repeats.  SIGHTINGS, for example,
is not in current weekly production.  Shows often are imports: much of what
THE DISCOVERY CHANNEL runs in the US on these topics comes from other
countries.  If I know if something is a premiere, I'll try and list that in
the future.

As usual, let me know what you think at <A HREF="mailto:
bufocalvin@aol.com">BufoCalvin@aol.com</A>.

On to the listings: Times are generally Pacific.

RADIO

Eddie Middleton's very popular show in the South, Nightsearch, has a website
at <A HREF="http://listen.to/nightsearch">http://listen.to/nightsearch<;/A>.
Starting soon, the new website at <A
HREF="http://www.nightsearch.net/">http://www.nightsearch.net/<;/A>.
Unfortunately, no streaming audio. Sundays from 2:00 to 4:00 PM (Pacific).
The call-in line is 901-365-1430.

Don Ecker, of UFO MAGAZINE, hosts STRANGE DAZE on the Liberty Works. It can
be heard on streaming Real Audio at <A
HREF="http://www.broadcast.com/radio/talk/lwrn">http://www.broadcast.com/radio
/talk/lwrn</A>.

Ken Dashow, THE EDGE OF REALITY, Sundays at 9:00 PM, Fridays at 5:00 PM.
Dashow is known for his sarcastic wit. <A
HREF="http://www.talkamerica.com/dashow.html">http://www.talkamerica.com/dasho
w.html</A> and <A
HREF="http://www.dashow.com/edge.html">http://www.dashow.com/edge.html<;/A>.
There is some dispute on these times. A correspondent tells me (thanks! If
you'd like to be acknowledged on the list, let me know) that it runs from
5:00 PM to 8:00 PM (Pacific...that's how times are generally listed here),
with a repeat from 8:00 PM to 11:00 PM on Saturdays.

Mike Jarmus, REALITY AND BEYOND, 7:00 PM Sundays, <A
HREF="http://spectrum.orn.com/omega.ram">http://spectrum.orn.com/omega.ram<;/A>
. Streaming audio available

Art Bell - DREAMLAND
Currently, the most popular talk show on this area. <A
HREF="http://www.artbell.com/">http://www.artbell.com/<;/A>. Live streaming
audio (and video) available.

Jeff Rense - SIGHTINGS
Jeff is well-versed on the topics, but likes to let the guests speak,
resulting in one of the best radio shows on these topics. You can hear Real
Audio of the show, and there are archives as well. Go to <A
HREF="http://www.sightings.com/">http://www.sightings.com/<;/A> for more
information. The show is on at 7:00 PM Pacific Monday through Friday, and
8:00 PM Pacific on Sunday. You can hear it anywhere through your computer.
Please note that Jeff also often covers topics which I do not consider
relevant to this list. To subscribe to the Jeff Rense Weekly E-news (which
includes articles and a complete guest listing), e-mail (subject: Subscribe)
<A HREF="mailto:jocelyn@dewittec.net">mailto:jocelyn@dewittec.net</A>.

Sunday, August 15, 8:00 PM, Don Ecker of UFO Magazine
Wednesday, August 18, 7:00 PM, Michael Lindemann, Weekly UFO/World report
Thursday, August 19, 7:00 PM, Dr. Louis Turi on divine astrology
Friday, August 20, 7:00 PM, Jan Lamprecht on hollow planets

Paul Williams and Scott Carr: UFO DESK
This New York show has been around for years, but is now available on
streaming audio. The website is <A
HREF="http://www.escape.com/~paulw/ufodesk.html">http://www.escape.com/~paulw/
ufodesk.html</A>. It runs at 8:00 PM (Pacific) on Sundays.

Jeff Mishlove AND THE VIRTUAL UNIVERSITY
Webcast every weekday at 8:00 PM for two hours, with a repeat at 10:00 PM.
Webcast at <A
HREF="http://www.wisdomradio.com/">http://www.wisdomradio.com/<;/A>.

ERSKINE OVERNIGHT
Webcast 9:00 PM to Midnight with an immediate repeat at <A
HREF="http://www.talkamerica.com/">Talkamerica.com</A>.

TELEVISION

A&E (USA)

BBC (Australia) (Time zone unknown)

Sunday, August 15, 7:10 AM, INVESTIGATING UFOS
Sunday, August 15, 7:10 PM, INVESTIGATING UFOS

BBC WORLD (Europe) (GMT+1)

Sunday, August 15, 11:10 AM, CLOSE ENCOUNTERS (featuring Sue Blackmore on
abductions)
Sunday, August 15, 7:10 PM, CLOSE ENCOUNTERS (featuring Sue Blackmore on
abductions)

CHANNEL 5 (Europe) (GMT+1)

Sunday, August 15, 12:30 PM, ANIMAL X (includes a reported American goat-man
and psychic animals)

DISCOVERY CHANNEL (EUROPE) (ALL TIMES GMT+1)

Sunday, August 15, 9:30 PM, MYSTERIOUS BRITAIN: LOCH NESS
Monday, August 16, 10:25 AM, ARTHUR C. CLARKE'S WORLD OF STRANGE POWERS:
GHOSTS, APPARITIONS, AND HAUNTED HOUSES
Monday, August 16, 11:45 AM, ARTHUR C. CLARKE'S MYSTERIOUS UNIVERSE: AT
DEATH'S DOOR
Monday, August 16, 12:15 PM, ARTHUR C. CLARKE'S MYSTERIOUS UNIVERSE: MEETING
MARY (Marian visions)
Tuesday, August 17, 10:25 AM, ARTHUR C. CLARKE'S WORLD OF STRANGE POWERS:
FAIRIES, PHANTOMS, FANTASTIC PHOTOGRAPHS
Wednesday, August 18, 10:25 AM, ARTHUR C. CLARKE'S WORLD OF STRANGE POWERS:
HAVE WE LIVED BEFORE?

THE DISCOVERY CHANNEL (USA)

Thursday, August 19, 10:00 PM, INTO THE UNKNOWN: GHOSTS AND UFOS (pilot UFO
encounters; New Zealand UFO; haunted British castles)
Friday, August 20, 1:00 AM, INTO THE UNKNOWN: GHOSTS AND UFOS (pilot UFO
encounters; New Zealand UFO; haunted British castles)
Saturday, August 21, 2:00 PM, INTO THE UNKNOWN: GHOSTS AND UFOS (pilot UFO
encounters; New Zealand UFO; haunted British castles)
Next Thursday, August 26, 9:00 PM, SCIENCE MYSTERIES: MONSTERS OF THE LAKE
Next Friday, August 27, 12:00 AM, SCIENCE MYSTERIES: MONSTERS OF THE LAKE

FOX SOAP TALK (Australia) (Time zone unknown)

Sunday, August 15, 12:30 AM, THE UNEXPLAINED: PSYCHIC DETECTIVES
Sunday, August 15, 4:30 AM, THE UNEXPLAINED: PSYCHIC DETECTIVES

HISTORY CHANNEL (USA)

Thursday, August 19, 8:30 AM, HISTORY'S CRIMES AND TRIALS (includes the
"Amityville Horror")
Thursday, August 19, 1:30 PM, HISTORY'S CRIMES AND TRIALS (includes the
"Amityville Horror")

LOCAL TELEVISION (USA)

BEYOND THE UNEXPLAINED WITH JANET RUSSELL
Janet does get major guests on her show. Check with your local cable company
to see if it is cablecasting the show. Specific guest information not
currently available.
SUNDAYS Cablevision of Woodbury NY
CH 25/80/96 9:30PM
MONDAYS Cablevision of Riverhead NY
CH 27 10:00AM
Manhattan Neighborhood Network NY
CH 56 1:30AM
TUESDAYS Cablevision of Yorktown Heights NY
CH 34 8:30PM
Community TV of Sante Fe New Mexico
CH 8 8:30PM
WEDNESDAYS Gateway Access "12" SpringCreek NY
CH 12 8:30PM
Pac "8" TV of Los Alamos N.Mexico
CH8 4:00 PM
THURSDAY Cablevision of Hauppague NY
CH 25 5PM
LTV of Easthampton NY
CH 27 10:00 AM
FRIDAY Cablevision of Brookhaven NY
CH 99 9:30PM
PAC 8 of Los Alamos New Mexico
CH 8 9:00 PM
SATURDAY Cablevision of Westchester NY
CH 58/37 2:00 PM

NATIONAL GEOGRAPHIC (Australia) (Time Zone Unknown)

Tuesday, August 17, 10:00 PM, SEA MONSTERS (don't know if this is just an
evocative title, or really appropriate to the list)
Wednesday, August 18, 4:00 AM, SEA MONSTERS (don't know if this is just an
evocative title, or really appropriate to the list)
Wednesday, August 18, 10:00 AM, SEA MONSTERS (don't know if this is just an
evocative title, or really appropriate to the list)
Wednesday, August 18, 4:00 PM, SEA MONSTERS (don't know if this is just an
evocative title, or really appropriate to the list)

THE SCIENCE CHANNEL (USA)

New schedule again, since March 29, 1999.
Every day but Tuesday and Saturday, 9:00 AM, ARTHUR C. CLARKE (don't know
which one)
Every day but Tuesday and Saturday, 9:30 AM, ARTHUR C. CLARKE
Weekdays, 10:00 AM, STRANGE BUT TRUE?
Every day but Tuesday and Saturday, 5:00 PM, ARTHUR C. CLARKE
Every day but Tuesday and Saturday, 5:30 PM, ARTHUR C. CLARKE
Weekdays,6:00 PM, STRANGE BUT TRUE?
Every day but Monday and Sunday, 1:00 AM, ARTHUR C. CLARKE
Every day but Monday and Sunday, 1:30 AM, ARTHUR C. CLARKE
Tuesdays through Saturdays, 2:00 AM, STRANGE BUT TRUE?
Wednesdays, Thursdays, Fridays, 9:00 AM and 9:30 AM, ARTHUR C. CLARKE'S
MYSTERIOUS UNIVERSE
Wednesdays, Thursdays, Fridays, 5:00 PM and 5:30 PM, ARTHUR C. CLARKE'S
MYSTERIOUS UNIVERSE
Saturdays, OUT OF THIS WORLD all day long

THE SCI-FI CHANNEL (US Feed)

Tuesday, August 17, 11:00 AM, SIGHTINGS: EPISODE #5068 (Texas haunting; Nazi
UFOs; alien abductions; plant communication; Korean UFOs)
Wednesday, August 18, 11:00 AM, SIGHTINGS: EPISODE #5069 (psychic detective;
Atlantis; alchemy; haunting; ley lines; divination)
Thursday, August 19, 11:00 AM, SIGHTINGS: EPISODE #5070 (New York UFOs,
ghosts on film; psychics; earthquake predictions)
Friday, August 20, 11:00 AM, SIGHTINGS:EPISODE #3001 (poltergeists; UFOs;
psychic sculptor)
Monday, August 23, 11:00 AM, SIGHTINGS: EPISODE #3002 (haunting; alien
abductions; angels; cattle mutilations; new species)
Tuesday, August 24, 11:00 AM, SIGHTINGS: EPISODE #3003 (Area 51; pet
interpreter; ice circles; psychic detective; alien abductees)
Wednesday, August 25, 11:00 AM, SIGHTINGS: EPISODE #3004 (Bigfoot;
near-death-experience)
Thursday, August 26, 11:00 AM, SIGHTINGS: EPISODE #3005 (Tuguska event;
near-death experiences; spontaneous human combustion; hauntings)
Friday, August 27, 11:00 AM, SIGHTINGS: EPISODE #3006 (psychic detective;
earthquake predictions; UFO hoax; power of prayer; SETI)
___________________________

This is Bufo saying, "If =everything= seemed normal, that =would= be weird!"
____________________________

You can stop receiving this from me just by asking (note: it is commonly
redistributed, and I can't control you getting it from those sources) by
e-mail at BufoCalvin@aol.com. You can also subscribe or unsubscribe to Bufo's
WEIRD WORLD Media Alert the same way. Also, please let me know if there is
something in the media you think I should cover. Deadline is Tuesday, the
week before.
_____________________________







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   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Aug > Aug 16

                                  Re: Pics

From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 12:55:58 +0100
Fwd Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 20:48:35 -0400
Subject: Re: Pics


 >From: Jerry Anderson <jerry@uforesearch.freeserve.co.uk>
 >To: <updates@globalserve.net>
 >Subject: Pics
 >Date: Mon, 9 Aug 1999 22:54:40 +0100

 >Dear list,

 >Take a look at these photo's, and tell me what you think the
 >object is.

 >The object is travelling from left to right.

 >There were no lights what - so - ever on the 'vehicle'.

 >It moved at around 15 - 20 mph.

 >Estimated size is approx. 100 foot long.

 >Estimated altitude 1000 feet.

 >There was no noise reported.

 >No balloons or dirigibles were operating that night.

 >No civil or military aircraft were in the area at that time.

 >Video enhancement shows a minor exhaust emission.

 >It reflected no light from the town below.

John Harney, Editor of "Magonia Monthly Supplement" and former
scientific officer at the British Meteorlogical Office, saw this
piece of film in February at a UFO conference in Southport
organised by Tim Matthews. He reports in Monthly Supplement
No.13, March 1999:

"UFOMEK is also excited by a pice of security video footage
which is said to show a triangular UFO moving very slowly over
the Thames at Gravesend... The video was shown to us. It was of
rather poor quality, but to me the object looks remarkably like
a fractostratus cloud."

Full text available on Magonia's website.

Sorry about the late reply to this, but I was one of those
people getting all their UpDates messages bounced by the deadly
Demon!


--
John Rimmer
Magonia Magazine





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   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Aug > Aug 16

                 Failed Polygraph Yields Unexpected Benefit

From: Ryan S. Wood <rswood@igc.apc.org>
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 16:51:34 -0800
Fwd Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 21:03:45 -0400
Subject: Failed Polygraph Yields Unexpected Benefit


FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE, August 16, 1999

Failed Polygraph Yields Unexpected Benefit

REDWOOD CITY, California -- The recently leaked Top Secret MJ-12
UFO documents from Mr. Timothy Cooper have undergone a series of
authentication tests by investigators Dr. Robert M. Wood, Ryan
S. Wood and other questioned document examiners. Besides the
basic forensic authentication tests of chronology, style,
typography, content and authorship the Woods are increasingly
focusing on the important issue of provenance. One of five
currently disclosed sources of the Majestic documents is Mr.
Timothy Cooper of Big Bear Lake, California, who received some
Majestic documents in his post office mailbox and through
personal contacts between 1992 and 1999. Mr. Cooper's alleged
sources are: 1) counterintelligence agent Thomas Cantwheel, 2)
Cantwheel's daughter, 3) a Legionnaire, formerly Air Force
counterintelligence, and 4) a former CIA employee.  Mr. Cooper
has sworn out three affidavits related to this matter and to
date none of the information supplied in the affidavits has been
shown to be false. Recently, however Mr. Cooper took a polygraph
examination and did not do well.

Tim Cooper and the Polygraph

On the Mike Jarmus radio show, Robert Durant (an anomaly
researcher who regularly and systematically questions the
truthfulness of unusual claims) when interviewing Mr. Cooper,
unexpectedly challenged him to a polygraph exam.  His purpose
was to further understand the provenance of the new top secret
Majestic documents and try to determine if Cooper had forged the
documents and was perpetrating a massive fraud.  Mr. Cooper
agreed to take a polygraph, and Dr. Wood arranged to have him
examined by a highly qualified polygrapher, Mr. William Stanley
Lane, Certified Polygraph Examiner, a former president of the
California Association of Polygrapher Examiners and highly
regarded in his field.  The test was narrowed, at the
polygrapher examiner's insistence, from a large battery of
questions down to the central issue of where did he get the
documents.

Tim Cooper has consistently stated that he will protect the
identity of his two covert sources, both before and after the
polygraph test. When asked the question, "Did you lie when you
said that you received the 'Majestic Documents' in your
mailbox?" he said, "No."  This answer clearly indicated
deception, when asked three different times.  This deception is
to be expected, based on his determination to conceal the
identity of the other sources, concealed from the conversation.
We have subsequently clarified these sources, and they are now
described in the table of document acquisition that follows.
Many of the Cooper entries on this table as a direct result of
issues raised by the polygraph test.

In addition, when asked the question, "Did you lie when you said
that you gave those documents to a Mr. Bob and Ryan Wood?" the
"No" answer showed deception.  It certainly should have, since
he gave most of the documents to Stan Friedman or one or two to
Timothy Good, and only two documents to Bob and Ryan (the
Interplanetary Phenomenon Unit Report and the so-called "First
Annual Report.")

On ABC's Sunday news program August 8, 1999, it was stated that
polygraph exams are not admissible in jury trials and that the
Supreme Court recently supported a challenge to that ruling.
Criminals such as Aldrich Ames can and do pass lie detector
tests.  Also, innocent people can be placed under suspicion
because the science of lie detectors is still considered
unreliable.  As worst, studies show a 50/50 chance of truth
being shown, and at best, the Defense Department has four
studies showing accuracy of 80-95%.

In post-test discussion with Mr. Cooper, asking him why he
showed deception, he told us that he always intended to protect
the identity of his two other sources besides the mailbox
Cantwheel source, and would continue to do so. This is
consistent with the deceptive results recorded, and polygraph
examiner Lane agrees.

"Accordingly, Tim's polygraph test, although conclusive that his
answers very likely showed deception consistent with the context
of the questions, is moving us toward a better understanding of
the provenance of these fascinating documents, many of which are
deemed authentic by other means" said Ryan Wood.

In the process of pinning down Mr. Cooper on exactly which
documents he obtained from whom and when, we have developed the
following tabular information concerning the sources of the
Majestic documents.  The documents themselves can be found in
our book, "The Majestic Documents" available by calling
1-800-845-2151.

Table of Top Secret UFO Majestic Document Sources

Description:  Eisenhower Briefing Document (EBD) , 18 Nov. 1952
              (7 pages)
Date Discovered:  December 12, 1984
Source:  Jaime Shandera's house mailbox, Los Angeles, CA

Description:  Truman to Forrestal (1 page) 24 Sep 1947
Date Discovered: December 12, 1984
Source:  Jaime Shandera's house mailbox, Los Angeles, CA

Description:  Cutler Twining Memo, 14 July 1954(1 page)
Date Discovered: July 1985
Source:  Jaime Shandera, RG 341, E-267 National Archives

Description:  JFK and Marilyn Monroe  (1 page) 3 Aug 1962
Date Discovered: 1992
Cooper from a former CIA source

Description:  Humelsine to President Truman (1 page) 25 Sep 1947
Date Discovered: October 7, 1992
Source:  Cooper in PO mailbox from Cantwheel

Description:  Air Accident Report, 8 July 1947 (3 pages)
Date Discovered: 1993
Source:  Cooper Air Force Counterintelligence Legionnaire

Description:  Hillenkoetter Memo to the Joint Intelligence
               Committee (1 page) 19 Sep 1947
Date Discovered: March 1993
Source:  Cooper in PO mailbox from Cantwheel

Description:  Majestic Twelve First Annual Report - Panel,
              1948 (1 pages)
Date Discovered: Jan 19, 1994
Source:  Cooper in PO mailbox from Cantwheel

Description:  Special Operations Manual, April 1954 (21 pages)
Date Discovered:  March 4, 1994
Source:  Don Berliner house mailbox, Alexandria VA

Description:  Majestic Twelve annual report Table of contents
              (1 page)
Date Discovered:   December 30, 1994
Source:  Cooper in PO mailbox from Cantwheel

Description:  4th Annual Report of Majestic with Annexes 1952
               (14 pages)
Date Discovered:   February 22, 1995
Source:  Cooper in PO mailbox from Cantwheel

Description:  Interplanetary Phenomenon Unit Intelligence
               Assessment, 22 July 1947 (7 pages)
Date Discovered:  July 16, 1995
Source:  Cooper in at personal meeting with Cantwheel

Description:  Interplanetary Phenomenon Unit Field Order
               (1 page) 4 July, 1947
Date Discovered:  July 16, 1995
Source:  Cooper in at personal meeting with Cantwheel

Description:  JFK to Director CIA (1 page) 28 June 1961
Date Discovered:   July 16, 1995
Source:  Cooper  Meeting with Cantwheel

Description:  Kennedy memo on classification review of UFO
               files affecting National Security, 12, Nov. 1963
               (1 page)
Date Discovered:  July 16, 1995
Source:  Cooper  Meeting with Cantwheel

Description:  Mission Assessment of Recovered Lenticular
               Aerodyne Objects (White Hot), 24 Sept. 1947
               (19 pages)
Date Discovered:  June 6, 1996
Source:  Cooper in PO mailbox from Cantwheel's daughter, Salina

Description:  Directive to Twining Via Eisenhower (1 page),
               8 July 1947
Date Discovered:   June 6, 1996
Source:  Cooper in PO mailbox from Cantwheel's daughter Salina

Description:  Directive to Twining by Truman (1 page), 9 July,
               1947
Date Discovered:  June 6, 1996
Source:  Cooper in PO mailbox from Cantwheel's daughter, Salina

Description:  Einstein - Oppenheimer, June 1947 (6 pages)
Date Discovered:   June 6, 1996
Source:  Cooper in PO Mailbox from Cantwheel's daughter, Salina

Description:  Joint Intelligence Objectives Agency Memo # 1412,
               12 April 1949 (1 Page)
Date Discovered:  January 1999
Source:  Cooper  allegedly fromCIA Paperclip FOIA, although
          received 1994

Both Bob and Ryan have spent a combined 60 hours with Tim Cooper
over a course of three years. They have been to his house, read
many of his papers, talked with him at length, both about the
polygraph and these and other documents. We believe that he did
not forge anything, based on our personal evaluation of him, his
style, his habits, his demeanor, and his writing despite the
"failed" polygraph examination.

Several distinguished researchers have stated that if there were
crashes and parts recovered, it would be remarkable if there was
not a paper trail. The central question is "Which documents that
have been leaked are authentic or hoaxed, and if hoaxed, why,
when, by whom and for what purpose?

Truth, Deception or Falsehood - Too Early To Conclude

"We in no way are ruling out the possibility that these
documents were donated to Tim Cooper as a likely way to get them
onto the world stage. It is important to remember that if it
were not for the efforts of Bob and Ryan everything in Tim
Cooper's entire collection would still be sitting in the "gray
basket" of Stan Friedman or Tim Good's questionable stack and
unlikely to have been published at all. Another, very real
possibility is that some aspects of the documents are part of a
deceptive, disinformation campaign designed for the mid-fifties
or later to confuse or re-direct the Soviet or Chinese
technological investments. There may be other reasons we also do
not perceive.

It is critical however, to look at each document and further
analyze each sentence or phrase for truth, deception or
falsehood. It is illogical to generalize that if one phrase is
somehow wrong that the entire document is wrong, as the clich
goes, "Lets not throw the baby out with the bathwater."

Resolution of the currently released set of documents is a huge
task that is nearly 50% done although we have disclosed only 10%
of the research results about the authentication of the
currently released documents. Both truths and deception may both
be seen as authentic, because historical documents represent
ideas and not facts, troubling issues of a documents
authenticity sometimes may never be resolved. "No amount of
degree of content analysis, typography nor chronology, without
physical testing of original documents, ever completely satisfy
professional standards of authenticity", said Dr. Wood.
However, during 2000 much more will be released along with more
authentication research in the form of our presentations,
publications, documentaries and planned our web site", said Ryan
Wood.

Meanwhile, Mr. Cooper continues to receive packages with
archival contents, some of which are original paper, ink and
watermark. These offer significant promise to get to the heart
of the history of the Majestic Documents.

Where Can you See The Majestic Documents

The new Majestic documents were first published on
www.TheWordIsTruth.org web site as part of Joe Firmage's launch
of the International Space Sciences Organization, www.ISSO.org.
They also can be purchased by calling 1-800-845-2151, including
a multimedia CDROM that discusses the authenticity of these
documents. Stan Friedman has published a detailed book, Top
Secret Majic, which includes some of the Majestic documents. It
covers the authenticity of the Eisenhower Briefing Document; Mr.
Freidman was the first to publish a preliminary version of the
Special Operations Manual - Extraterrestrial Entities and
Technology, Recovery and Disposal.

Wood & Wood Enterprises

Dr. Robert M and Ryan S Wood are partners dedicated to the
investigation of Majestic, MAJIC or MJ-12 documents.  Our goals
are to research, authenticate and publish our results in widely
accepted media.  We employ a variety of specialists in key
fields that contribute to our efforts. We welcome volunteers
that are willing to sign non-disclosure agreements and that have
a reputation for integrity and a dogged determination to search
for the truth.







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   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Aug > Aug 16

                     Re: Socorro: The Zamora 'Insignia'

From: Michel M. Deschamps <ufoman@ican.net>
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 13:11:51 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 21:36:35 -0400
Subject: Re: Socorro: The Zamora 'Insignia'


 >Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 15:28:27 -0400
 >From: Robert Moore <ENGIMA9@compuserve.com>
 >Subject: Socorro: The Zamora 'Insignia'
 >To: UFO Updates <updates@globalserve.net>

 >Dear list,

 >Today, I read with considerable interest James Easton's recent
 >posting on his "UFO Research" email list, regarding a possible
 >"balloon" explanation cited recently for the "classic"  Lonnie
 >Zamora/Socorro New Mexico CE3 case, which (as you all know)
 >occurred on the 24th April 1964
 >.....

 >The main gist of this claim reads as follows (following text
 >taken from James Easton's original  email):

 ><snip>

 >>I'm not sure how well known [Larry] Robinson's published material is
 >>known and perhaps surprisingly, or maybe not, I've only ever seen
 >>it mentioned once, briefly, on any 'UFO' related forum. He
 >>states:

 >>"I believe I have solved the 1964 Socorro NM UFO case.  I not
 >>only think I know what it was, but who owned it.  I have seen the
 >>same thing here, and identified it.  Once, it flew so low over my
 >>house that I could hear the occupants talking.  The intermittant
 >>roar scared my dog.  I have seen it land and take off, and the
 >>effects and sounds were identical to the descriptions in
 >>Sanderson's and Hynek's books.  I even saw the tilting of the
 >>elliptical shape, and heard the rise in pitch when the roar
 >>ceased.

 >>What was it?  A manned hot air balloon.  I didn't tumble to this
 >>fully until I heard the rising pitch of the burner as the pilot
 >>shut it down after a burn.  I have seen them start it up, and I
 >>have witnessed a touch-and-go landing, as well as several end of
 >>flight landings.  The only difference is the color.  Our local
 >>balloon is green, with white advertizing for the owner's local
 >>winery on the side.

<snip>

 >Incidentally, I had already come across Larry Robinson's website
 >about a year or so previously  - where he originally put forward
 >his solution for the Socorro incident - and have been surprised
 >on not hearing any mention of his claim within UFO circles.

<snip>


If anyone out there thinks the hot air balloon theory can
explain the Lonnie Zamora sighting, then you've got a
second-think coming.

How can a hot air balloon cause 9-inch deep landing gear marks
and burns on a nearby bush?  Come on!

Think, people, think!

How does it explain the fact that after the object lifted-off,
it hovered for a short while about 20 feet in the air before
slowly moving off?

And how about the report made on Unsolved Mysteries of another
witness who stopped for gas at a local service station and told
the attendant something to the effect of:

"I tell ya, your aircraft sure fly low around here.  We were
south of town headed north.  Something flew right over the hood
of the car, doing about 150 miles an hour...a white oval-shaped
object...scared us to death."

Now, that's one _speedy_ balloon!

Michel M. Deschamps
MUFON's Provincial Section Director for Sudbury, Ontario,
Canada & UFO Researcher/Historian






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   Aug > Aug 16

                     Re: Socorro: The Zamora 'Insignia'

From: Martin Jeffrey <martin-j@lineone.net>
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 21:51:06 +0100
Fwd Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 21:43:59 -0400
Subject: Re: Socorro: The Zamora 'Insignia'


Further to the previous emails

I have read the emails from James Easton and Robert Moore with
great interest and feel that the following information should be
taken in to account.

Zamora after the sighting reported to his collegues, that he saw
the red insignia as "una 'V' invertido con tres lineas debajo"
which translates "an inverted 'V' with three parallel lines
underneath."

After the instigation by Captain Holder of the US Army on 24
April '64 that Zamora could only describe the 'Insignia' to
official investigators, Zamora refused to describe the insignia
to anyone not of official status until 30 April 64 - after the
US army investigation.

After this time, he began to tell the multitude of investigators
that he had seen a vertical arrow with a line under it, with
vertical lines on each side, similar to the International Paper
Insignia.

Allen J Hynek, while being interviewed by Ray Stanford, said
"Zamora told me it was just an inverted "V" with some lines
across it. I can't recall exactly how many lines there were.."

Ray Stanford in his book "Socorro Saucer" also claims that
Captain Holder may have faked Zamora's "five minutes after"
drawing and may have influenced Zamora to actually change his
story after the 30 April.

Socorro Police officers and two radio despatchers all reported
that the "five minutes after" drawing was a piece torn off a
paper bag, yet Holder contributed to the US Army investigation a
piece of magazine page with the drawing on it.

Before we lay claim to solving the mystery of the "Zamora"
sighting, should we check the facts of the original
investigation and question whether the red insignia we all
"know"  is infact a substitute?

Food for thought...



Martin Jeffrey





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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Aug > Aug 16

                     Re: Socorro: The Zamora 'Insignia'

From: Joel Henry <jhenry@visi.com>
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 16:23:19 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 21:52:27 -0400
Subject: Re: Socorro: The Zamora 'Insignia'


 >Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 15:28:27 -0400
 >From: Robert Moore <ENGIMA9@compuserve.com>
 >Subject: Socorro: The Zamora 'Insignia'
 >To: UFO Updates <updates@globalserve.net>

 >Dear list,

 >Today, I read with considerable interest James Easton's recent
 >posting on his "UFO Research" email list, regarding a possible
 >"balloon" explanation cited recently for the "classic"  Lonnie
 >Zamora/Socorro New Mexico CE3 case, which (as you all know)
 >occurred on the 24th April 1964
 >......

<snip>

This is a typical example of arm-chair debunkery. One of the
most important features of the Zamora case is the "burnt landing
area". The only way a balloon could burn the ground is if it was
upside down. Anyone with a working knowledge of balloons knows
they don't work that way at all. No basket was seen. Balloonists
don't ride inside the balloon itself! It also assumes Mr. Zamora
is too stupid to recognise a balloon. He described an egg shape,
NOT a light bulb shape. No ropes. Also it hovered on it's
_side_. Try doing that with a balloon! You must have taken your
info _only_ from Blue Books pathetic account.

Over-simplifying, ignoring facts and concentrating only on the
easiest to explain away elements is typical bonehead-debunking
(aka- Phil Klass.) If you can't requite _all_ the important
factors, why bother to print such a flimsy explanation? The guy
was stone throwing distance from the craft! He would have to be
blind AND stupid to think a solid object was a balloon! I could
go on and on. The craft was seen to hover in place for several
minutes (try and do _that_ with a balloon!), the flames came out
the _bottom_ of the craft, _not_ the middle and were firing
downward. If you feel the need to armchair debunk, at least
_try_ to stick to all the _facts_ of the case, not pathetic
generalisations or stretched interpretations. Otherwise you only
serve to waste our time. Did you really bother to think this
through at all? Have you bothered to read all the full accounts
of the case?

Let's get back to _real_ investigation and research PLEASE!

Joel Henry
Minnesota MUFON FI & Webmaster.

PS- whatever happened to the moon lander explanation? Too far
off in time? Didn't bother the Air Force at all in Case Closed. ;)


-------------------------------------------------------------------
Minnesota MUFON Field Investigator, Minnesota MUFON Journal Editor,
Minnesota MUFON Webmaster
Minnesota MUFON Web Page: http://www.visi.com/~jhenry/index.html






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                     Re: Socorro: The Zamora 'Insignia'

From: Mark Cashman <mcashman@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 12:31:20 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 21:28:01 -0400
Subject: Re: Socorro: The Zamora 'Insignia'


 >Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 15:28:27 -0400
 >From: Robert Moore <ENGIMA9@compuserve.com>
 >Subject: Socorro: The Zamora 'Insignia'
 >To: UFO Updates <updates@globalserve.net>

 >I have attached the .jpg showing this composite image to this
 >email.  As you can see, the "International Paper" logo shares
 >more than a passing resemblance to the Zamora 1964 "UFO"
 >insignia.  On this alone, this "new" proposed explanation for
 >the Socorro incident clearly requires further pursual and
 >comment by the UFO community

Hi, Robert!

The balloon as an explanation of the Socorro is easily refuted
by the following facts from the case report - the content of
which Mr. Robinson, Mr. Easton, and yourself seem surprisingly
unaware of:

1) The object was first heard in the middle of a high-speed
chase from a distance of about 0.75 mile. The sound was a roar
with volume comparable to a jet engine or an explosion. The roar
frequency descended from high to low. These are not
characteristic of hot air balloon envelope heating systems,
which at most emit a sort of "foosh" sound or a relatively soft
non-pitched white / pink noise spectrum sound (at sustained full
on).

2) The object was roughly in the direction of the sun and yet
the flame was visible as bluish against the sky and the hills,
and in the shape of a cone (point up). This is not
characteristic of a hot air balloon envelope heating system. It
is also likely that a heating system flame at such a distance
would subtend a very small visual angle and would be much less
noticeable than the balloon envelope and the gondola. Yet
neither the envelope nor the gondola were observed. This
suggests an extreme brightness for the flame, far in excess of
typical hot air balloon heating systems. Note that hot air
balloon flames are typically invisible at the bottom and orange
at the top (I have photos to prove this for anyone skeptical).
Indeed, such flames are typically invisible with any proximity
to the sun (again, I have photos to demonstrate this). Also,
there was no translucency noted at any time, which would be
expected with a balloon.

3) The landed object was observed in an environment with
numerous reference points, allowing for easy size determination.
The object size was estimated at about 15-20 feet in diameter,
compared with the 80 feet for a typical hot-air balloon. The
surface of the object was an aluminum white color, which would
be an unusual fabric for hot-air balloons. The object is two or
three feet above the ground on "legs", much lower than the
typical balloon with gondola - the basket height is typically
eight feet (including heating system supports) and the bottom of
the envelope is typically about 12-15 feet above that to prevent
setting the fabric on fire. If the object had lost sufficient
lift such that the envelope had fallen over onto the ground, the
time taken by the sighting was insufficient to raise to balloon,
and, in addition, the geometry change would have been quite
noticeable, yet it was not noticed.

4) The two persons were also observed in proximity to landmarks,
making size determination more certain than it might otherwise
be. Also, the distance from the car to the object at closest
approach was about 100 feet, well within typical stereoscopic
vision range, and the object and persons were observed in
conjunction with rocks and scrub of typical height, allowing for
a good estimate of size. Also note that contrary to typical
ballooning practice, the occupants were away from (though close
to) the balloon and the gondola, despite a fair wind which might
have taken the balloon into an uncontrolled movement.

5) Within a period of no more than a couple of minutes from
first observation, the object lifted away, after two or three
thumps like a car door slamming, making a very, very loud roar.
No changes in the object geometry suggestive of a flexible
envelope were observed. The  roar went from low to high
frequency, reversing the original sequence. The flame was blue
with orange at the bottom. Once again, hot air balloon heating
systems typically emit a flame with the opposite configuration,
and the bottom is typically invisible. As the object rose, no
apparent translucency was noted, despite the bright sky and the
presence of the sun behind and left of the object relative to
the witness.

6) The insignia was observed as red. There is no evidence that
IP used a red logo. Also, why was their name not written below
the logo for better advertising? There are many possible similar
shapes for a simple vertical arrow with an arc over it and a
line below. I believe an Arabic symbol for Venus has been
mentioned as similar. One might also mention the Weyerhaeuser
logo. Indeed, for any small set of lines, there is hardly a
shape which humans have not used in many contexts.

7) Up to this point all observations had been made with properly
corrected glasses with attached sun lenses. The remaining
observations are made without glasses, but do not require
extensive visual acuity to be accurate.

8) In a few seconds the object has risen to 20-25 feet above the
ground. This is fairly fast for a hot-air balloon, much less for
one with about a quarter of the envelope volume of a typical hot
air balloon. At this point the object is level with the car and
about 125 feet away. Though Zamora has lost his glasses, it is
unreasonable to suppose he cannot notice a gondola under a
balloon at that distance, against the sky.

9) Despite having attained a fairly small amount of altitude,
the object roar ceases - shutting down heating at this point
would be atypical behavior for a balloon launch in unfriendly
terrain (which this was - studded with rocks, scrub, and the
dynamite shack over which the object then flew).

10) The object was traveling very fast - such that it passed
over the dynamite shack and disappeared in the distance in a
space of less than half a minute from the first sound. A speed
estimate using a 5 and 15 mile horizon suggests speeds of 600 -
1800 mph, a far cry from a balloon. A 30 mph wind could only
push a balloon over a five mile horizon in ten minutes, for
instance. It would take a half hour to do so over a 15 mile
horizon. Photos in the original report show that the area
visible from Zamora's car was extensive. With the terrain
largely flat and with the car at a high point, the horizon would
be probably even more distant than 15 mi.

11) The indentations were estimated to indicate a per pad weight
of 1 ton, for a total object weight of 4 tons. Obviously this is
far in excess of even a large modern balloon. The indentations
were unique in the area, yet one might expect a hurried balloon
takeoff, especially from a gondola down position, to have left
other markings. No chemicals suggestive of propellant were found
on the burned bushes.

12) No inquires to AF installations found indications of an
experimental aircraft.

13) No chase vehicles were ever seen.

14) Despite national press attention, no balloon operator ever
came forward.

In short, Robert, it is not true that "this 'new' proposed
explanation for the Socorro incident clearly requires further
purusal and comment by the UFO community." Indeed, despite
withering criticism on the Project 1947 list (to which James
refused to properly respond), James continues to "share" this
explanation as worthy of attention, which it is not. It clearly
fails on both quantitative and qualitative grounds.

I have no objection to hypotheses for UFO incidents. But they
must meet the criteria for a proper hypothesis (i.e. they must
explain most or all of the observation) PRIOR to introduction.
The effort which has been wasted in this community by responding
to the "pelican" non-hypothesis, and now this, is considerable
and detracts from more appropriate uses of researcher time.

------
Mark Cashman, creator of The Temporal Doorway at
http://www.temporaldoorway.com
- Original digital art, writing, music and UFO research -

UFO cases, analysis, classification systems, and more...
http://www.temporaldoorway.com/ufo/index.htm
------







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   Aug > Aug 17

               Re: Failed Polygraph Yields Unexpected Benefit

From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@connectmmic.net>
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 01:42:13 -0700
Fwd Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 12:47:59 -0400
Subject: Re: Failed Polygraph Yields Unexpected Benefit


 >Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 16:51:34 -0800
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
 >From: Ryan S. Wood <rswood@igc.apc.org>
Subject: Failed Polygraph Yields Unexpected Benefit

 >FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE, August 16, 1999

 >Failed Polygraph Yields Unexpected Benefit

 ><snip>

 >Tim Cooper has consistently stated that he will protect the
 >identity of his two covert sources, both before and after the
 >polygraph test. When asked the question, "Did you lie when you
 >said that you received the 'Majestic Documents' in your
 >mailbox?" he said, "No."  This answer clearly indicated
 >deception, when asked three different times.  This deception is
 >to be expected, based on his determination to conceal the
 >identity of the other sources, concealed from the conversation.

 ><snip>

 >In post-test discussion with Mr. Cooper, asking him why he
 >showed deception, he told us that he always intended to protect
 >the identity of his two other sources besides the mailbox
 >Cantwheel source, and would continue to do so. This is
 >consistent with the deceptive results recorded, and polygraph
 >examiner Lane agrees.

<snip>

 >"Accordingly, Tim's polygraph test, although conclusive that his
 >answers very likely showed deception consistent with the context
 >of the questions, is moving us toward a better understanding of
 >the provenance of these fascinating documents, many of which are
 >deemed authentic by other means" said Ryan Wood.

<snip>

Correct me if I'm wrong:

A person answers a question with a "no" and says this "no"
was a lie...

"Yes" must have been too complicated.

And that is supposed to clarify things?

Hehehe.

Am I missing something here?

Sorry.  Must be some gas from the Zamora case.

BTW.  Would James pass a polygraph test?

Hehehe.







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   Aug > Aug 17

                     Re: Socorro: The Zamora 'Insignia'

From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 08:55:05 EDT
Fwd Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 12:52:57 -0400
Subject: Re: Socorro: The Zamora 'Insignia'


 >From: Michel M. Deschamps <ufoman@ican.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
 >Subject: Re: Socorro: The Zamora 'Insignia'
 >Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 13:11:51 -0400


 >>Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 15:28:27 -0400
 >>From: Robert Moore <ENGIMA9@compuserve.com>
 >>Subject: Socorro: The Zamora 'Insignia'
 >>To: UFO Updates <updates@globalserve.net>


 ><snip>

 >If anyone out there thinks the hot air balloon theory can
 >explain the Lonnie Zamora sighting, then you've got a
 >second-think coming.

 >How can a hot air balloon cause 9-inch deep landing gear marks
 >and burns on a nearby bush?  Come on!

 >Think, people, think!

 >How does it explain the fact that after the object lifted-off,
 >it hovered for a short while about 20 feet in the air before
 >slowly moving off?

 >And how about the report made on Unsolved Mysteries of another
 >witness who stopped for gas at a local service station and told
 >the attendant something to the effect of:

I'll go you one better than that. In the Project Blue Book file
there is a letter suggesting that two men from Dubuque, Iowa,
traveling in New Mexico at the time saw the same craft. The
letter writer didn't have any names but said the article
appeared on the front page of the Dubuque newspaper. Apparently
no one ever followed up on this.

Took me almost twenty minutes to find the article. Paul Kies and
Larry Kratzer claimed they saw the same object as Zamora. They
didn't add much in the way of additional descriptions, but did
provide some corroboration of the Zamora sighting.

KRandle, Ph.D.





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   Aug > Aug 17

                     Re: Socorro: The Zamora 'Insignia'

From: Andy Roberts <Brigantia@compuserve.com>
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 13:40:52 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 16:25:30 -0400
Subject: Re: Socorro: The Zamora 'Insignia'

:
:
:


 >From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
 >Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 08:55:05 EDT
 >Subject: Re: Socorro: The Zamora 'Insignia'
 >To: updates@globalserve.net


 >I'll go you one better than that. In the Project Blue Book file
 >there is a letter suggesting that two men from Dubuque, Iowa,
 >traveling in New Mexico at the time saw the same craft. The
 >letter writer didn't have any names but said the article
 >appeared on the front page of the Dubuque newspaper. Apparently
 >no one ever followed up on this.
 >Took me almost twenty minutes to find the article. Paul Kies and
 >Larry Kratzer claimed they saw the same object as Zamora. They
 >didn't add much in the way of additional descriptions, but did
 >provide some corroboration of the Zamora sighting.

But if Zamora *did* see and misperceive a balloon,
and if these two witnesses saw the same object, a balloon
is what they also saw.

The fact that they were anonymous and the report wasn't checked
needs no comment at all.

Why attempts to explain Zamora's sighting reasonably and
in terms of known objects causes so much problems with some
people is a mystery in itself. Don't you *want* to identify
what he saw?

Happy Trails

Andy





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   Aug > Aug 17

                     Re: Socorro: The Zamora 'Insignia'

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 99 13:10:36 PDT
Fwd Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 16:28:09 -0400
Subject: Re: Socorro: The Zamora 'Insignia'


 >From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
 >Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 08:55:05 EDT
 >Subject: Re: Socorro: The Zamora 'Insignia'
 >To: updates@globalserve.net

 >>From: Michel M. Deschamps <ufoman@ican.net>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Socorro: The Zamora 'Insignia'
 >>Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 13:11:51 -0400

 >>>Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 15:28:27 -0400
 >>>From: Robert Moore <ENGIMA9@compuserve.com>
 >>>Subject: Socorro: The Zamora 'Insignia'
 >>>To: UFO Updates <updates@globalserve.net>

 >>And how about the report made on Unsolved Mysteries of another
 >>witness who stopped for gas at a local service station and told
 >>the attendant something to the effect of:

 >I'll go you one better than that. In the Project Blue Book file
 >there is a letter suggesting that two men from Dubuque, Iowa,
 >traveling in New Mexico at the time saw the same craft. The
 >letter writer didn't have any names but said the article
 >appeared on the front page of the Dubuque newspaper. Apparently
 >no one ever followed up on this.

 >Took me almost twenty minutes to find the article. Paul Kies and
 >Larry Kratzer claimed they saw the same object as Zamora. They
 >didn't add much in the way of additional descriptions, but did
 >provide some corroboration of the Zamora sighting.

Kevin,

Well, actually, wrong on both counts.

There was a follow-up investigation, conducted by a couple of
your fellow Iowans.  I'll quote myself here (UFO Encyclopedia,
2nd Ed., p. 860):

"[Ray Stanford] makes much of an account published in an Iowa
newspaper, the Dubuque Telegraph-Herald, on April 29. The
article reported that two local men ... observed Zamora's UFO
while passing through Socorro late on the afternoon of the
twenty-fourth. Stanford did not interview the men but relied
solely on the clipping. In May 1978, when ufologists Ralph
DeGraw and Patrick Crowley spoke separately with with Kies and
Kratzer, they noted serious discrepancies in their respective
testimonies. Their descriptions of the aerial phenomenon they
allegedly observed differed not only from Zamora's but from each
other's."

DeGraw's article on his investigation appeared in his
long-defunct magazine The UFO Examiner, September 1978, pp. 4-6.

Jerry Clark







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   Aug > Aug 17

               Re: [CTRL] X-Files Version Of History Backed By

From: Don Allen <dona@amigo.net>
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 13:01:44 -0600
Fwd Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 16:35:16 -0400
Subject: Re: [CTRL] X-Files Version Of History Backed By

Source: Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL]

Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 12:07:54 -0600
From: Hilary A. Thomas <standingrock@PAGOSA.NET>
Subject: [CTRL] X-Files version of history is backed by CIA report
To: CTRL@LISTSERV.AOL.COM

  -Caveat Lector-

ISSUE 1544 Tuesday 17 August 1999

X-Files version of history is backed by CIA report
By Michael Smith

THE CIA has released a secret history of its investigations into
UFO sightings, revealing that there was more truth in the
popular television series The X-Files than is often believed.

The highly critical report describes often bitter debates
between real-life X-Files investigators who believed that "the
truth is out there" and their sceptical bosses. It records tales
of bumbling undercover agents whose activities fuelled a
widespread belief that the government was covering up what the
agency described as "extra-terrestrial visitations by
intelligent beings".

The problem was eventually passed to the agency's physics and
electronics division where in true X-Files style just one
analyst investigated UFO phenomena. But the Fifties equivalent
of Fox Mulder was constantly undermined by his boss, described
by the CIA history as "a non-believer in UFOs", who tried but
failed to declare the project "inactive".

While the CIA investigations eventually concluded that all the
sightings could be explained, the report concludes that
"misguided" attempts to keep them secret led to widespread
belief of a government cover-up.

The report, written by Gerald K Haines, the official CIA
historian, was commissioned by the then CIA director James
Woolsey in 1993 in the wake of renewed claims of a CIA-led
cover-up. It calls for the first time on documents that the
agency hid from UFO enthusiasts who obtained thousands of more
mundane files under the Freedom of Information Act. The report,
completed in 1997, has been released at the request of the
British academic journal Intelligence and National Security and
is published in its summer issue this month.

US intelligence began investigating UFO sightings in 1947 when a
pilot claimed to have seen nine discs travelling at more than
1,000 mph in Washington state. The claim was backed up by
additional sightings including reports from military and
civilian pilots and air traffic controllers.

The first investigation, Operation Saucer, was carried out by US
air intelligence which initially feared that the objects might
be Soviet bombers. But some officers became convinced that UFOs
existed and in a top-secret report concluded many of the
sightings were "interplanetary". Air force chiefs had the report
rewritten to conclude that "although visits from outer space are
deemed possible, they are believed to be very unlikely".

The CIA initially dismissed the investigations as "midsummer
madness". But an agency committee decided they could be used by
Moscow either to create mass hysteria or to overload the air
warning system, making it unable to distinguish between UFOs and
Soviet bombers.

In 1955, claims by two elderly sisters to have had contact with
UFOs attracted widespread publicity. A CIA agent describing
himself as an air force officer spoke to them and reported that
he appeared to have stumbled upon a scene from Arsenic and Old
Lace. Analysis of a "code" which the women believed aliens were
using to make contact with them while they listened to their
favourite radio programme was morse code from a US radio
station.

But when UFO enthusiasts heard of the "air force" officer's
visit they became immediately suspicious that he was a member of
the CIA trying to cover up the affair. One enthusiast pursued
the CIA conspiracy theory and was visited by another CIA
officer, who claimed to be in the air force and even wore an air
force uniform. The ruse failed, making the conspiracy theorists
even more suspicious.

The refusal to release 57 documents on the investigation in the
Seventies, to protect sources, also fuelled the cover-up theory,
Haines concluded.


28 January 1999: [Connected] What the little green men say about scientists
8 July 1998: Scientists deride UFOs report
30 June 1998: Scientists call for inquiry on UFOs
24 November 1997: Clinton looked for evidence of UFOs

  � Copyright of Telegraph Group Limited 1999. Terms & Conditions of
reading. Commercial information.

DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER
==========
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list.
Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substance�not
soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory',
with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is
used politically by different groups with major and minor
effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That
being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts,
and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL
gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not
apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.
========================================================================
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   Aug > Aug 17

                     Re: Socorro: The Zamora 'Insignia'

From: Jerry Anderson <jerry@uforesearch.freeserve.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 22:38:26 +0100
Fwd Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 22:26:06 -0400
Subject: Re: Socorro: The Zamora 'Insignia'


 >From: Martin Jeffrey <martin-j@lineone.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
 >Subject: Re: Socorro: The Zamora 'Insignia'
 >Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 21:51:06 +0100

 >Further to the previous emails

 >I have read the emails from James Easton and Robert Moore with
 >great interest and feel that the following information should be
 >taken in to account.

 >Zamora after the sighting reported to his collegues, that he saw
 >the red insignia as "una 'V' invertido con tres lineas debajo"
 >which translates "an inverted 'V' with three parallel lines
 >underneath."

 >After the instigation by Captain Holder of the US Army on 24
 >April '64 that Zamora could only describe the 'Insignia' to
 >official investigators, Zamora refused to describe the insignia
 >to anyone not of official status until 30 April 64 - after the
 >US army investigation.

 >After this time, he began to tell the multitude of investigators
 >that he had seen a vertical arrow with a line under it, with
 >vertical lines on each side, similar to the International Paper
 >Insignia.

 >Allen J Hynek, while being interviewed by Ray Stanford, said
 >"Zamora told me it was just an inverted "V" with some lines
 >across it. I can't recall exactly how many lines there were.."

 >Ray Stanford in his book "Socorro Saucer" also claims that
 >Captain Holder may have faked Zamora's "five minutes after"
 >drawing and may have influenced Zamora to actually change his
 >story after the 30 April.

At a press conference soon after the sighting at the 'El Rio
Hotel', Prof. J Allen Hynek, accompanied by Major William Connor
from the Office of Public Information told reporters that Lonnie
Zamora had described the insignia on the craft to him: "He
described it to me as an inverted 'V' with a sort of bar across
it". *

Later on, Zamora confirmed that the insignia was indeed an
inverted 'V' with THREE lines through it.

Six years later, Hynek also confirmed to Ray Stanford that
Zamora described the 'V' and three lines. However, a month
later, Stanford questioned Hynek about the insignia. This time,
Hynek told him that the only insignia he had ever heard about
was the 'Arrow and Arch' one, which was given to the public via
the newspaper articles!!!

It seems reasonable, therefore, to asume that there was no 'mix
up' in the descriptions. The 'Arrow' symbol was possibly a
cover. But for what? If the object were manufactured 'locally'
using an advanced propulsion system, then it is very likely that
the project was put out to contract for this purpose. Could the
insignia have been one that was in use temporarily by the
prototype designers at the time?

If so, it would make sense to cover their tracks using another
'logo'. Then again, would there have been any official insignia
been allowed to be displayed, especially during a test run over
a non-military area?

* from 'Socorro Saucer' by
Ray Stanford

Best Wishes,





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                     Re: Socorro: The Zamora 'Insignia'

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 17:53:21 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 22:31:44 -0400
Subject: Re: Socorro: The Zamora 'Insignia'


 >Subject: Re: Socorro: The Zamora 'Insignia'
 >From: Mark Cashman <mcashman@ix.netcom.com>
 >Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 12:31:20 -0400
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>

 >>Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 15:28:27 -0400
 >>From: Robert Moore <ENGIMA9@compuserve.com>
 >>Subject: Socorro: The Zamora 'Insignia'
 >>To: UFO Updates <updates@globalserve.net>

 >>I have attached the .jpg showing this composite image to this
 >>email.  As you can see, the "International Paper" logo shares
 >>more than a passing resemblance to the Zamora 1964 "UFO"
 >>insignia.  On this alone, this "new" proposed explanation for
 >>the Socorro incident clearly requires further pursual and
 >>comment by the UFO community

 >The balloon as an explanation of the Socorro is easily refuted
 >by the following facts from the case report - the content of
 >which Mr. Robinson, Mr. Easton, and yourself seem surprisingly
 >unaware of:

I thank Mark Cashman for his typically cogernt and complete
discussion of yet another "failure of UFO skepticism."   What he
has written here supports what I have presented in two previous
messages.

Incidently, for those of you yearning for UFO explanations, do
go to Larry Robinson's site, where you will find everything
explained (Socorro, McMinnville, Gulf Breeze, New Zealand,
etc.)






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   Aug > Aug 17

                  Re: 'Unidentified Plane' Precedes Fighter

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 17:53:27 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 22:33:55 -0400
Subject: Re: 'Unidentified Plane' Precedes Fighter


 >Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 14:39:02 -0400
 >From: Kenny Young <ufo@fuse.net>
 >To: updates@globalserve.net
 >Subject: 'Unidentified Plane' Precedes Fighter Disappearance


 >This is a Sunday morning story from the AP news wires. I have
 >been looking for any follow-ups or clarifications to this story
 >on the FOX NEWSWIRES [which I frequently check] and haven't seen
 >anything to this point. Like many other items they post, this
 >one seems to have been dropped out of the news without any
 >follow-up. If anything further can be found on this issue,
 >please notify -- KY

---------

 >Fighter plane disappears off coast of Japan
 >8.25 a.m. ET (1226 GMT) August 15, 1999>

 >TOKYO (AP)  A Japanese fighter jet that had been sent to
 >intercept an unidentified plane off Japan's southern coast was
 >missing Sunday, the Defense Agency said Sunday.
 ><>

This reminds me of a story told to me personally by "Hawk" of an
event in 1958 or 57 (disappearance of a jet after being ordered
to fire on a UFO that had been detected on radar).







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                   Re: Strange Lights Puzzle The Watchers

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 17:53:12 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 22:29:00 -0400
Subject: Re: Strange Lights Puzzle The Watchers


 >Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 01:11:52 +0100
 >From: Dave Ledger <dledger@cableinet.co.uk>
 >To: updates@globalserve.net
 >Subject: Strange Lights Puzzle The Watchers


 >****************************************************************
 >THE TRUTH IS JUST AROUND THE CORNER!..................BUT HOW
 >FAR?


And.......

which corner?






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                     Re: Socorro: The Zamora 'Insignia'

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 17:53:31 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 22:36:01 -0400
Subject: Re: Socorro: The Zamora 'Insignia'


 >Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 16:23:19 -0500
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
 >From: Joel Henry <jhenry@visi.com>
 >Subject: Re: Socorro: The Zamora 'Insignia'


 >>Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 15:28:27 -0400
 >>From: Robert Moore <ENGIMA9@compuserve.com>
 >>Subject: Socorro: The Zamora 'Insignia'
 >>To: UFO Updates <updates@globalserve.net>

 >>Dear list,

 >>Today, I read with considerable interest James Easton's recent
 >>posting on his "UFO Research" email list, regarding a possible
 >>"balloon" explanation cited recently for the "classic"  Lonnie
 >>Zamora/Socorro New Mexico CE3 case, which (as you all know)
 >>occurred on the 24th April 1964
 >>......

 ><snip>

 >This is a typical example of arm-chair debunkery.

My most recent paper is entitled "Prosaic Explanations: the
Failure of UFO Skepticism."  I did not discuss the Zamorra case,
but I could certainly have included it. (Do discuss Val Johnson/
police car damage case of Aug 1980, A. C. Urie of AUg. 1947
Arnold, Japan Airlines Nov. 1986 over Alaska, and New Zealand).

Let us not forget the Klassic explanation of Socorro:
hoax.





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                     Re: Socorro: The Zamora 'Insignia'

From: James Easton <voyager@ukonline.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 23:04:53 +0100
Fwd Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 22:43:59 -0400
Subject: Re: Socorro: The Zamora 'Insignia'


I didn't bring up the 'Socorro' incident on the 'public' UpDates
list and currently wouldn't have, in view of certain ongoing
enquiries.

However, as it's a controversial topic and comments are being
made without any appreciation of recent breakthroughs in research
(not only my own, I would add), I will respond.

It may be prudent to keep in mind the following, from an article
entitled `Don Piccard - 50 Years of Ballooning Memories', at:

http://www.balloonlife.com/9707/piccard.htm

"During his years at Raven, between 1962 and 1964, Piccard
devoted his energy to marketing the Vulcoon, one-man thermal
balloons. Stressing his lack of security clearance at the time,
Piccard says he worked strictly on sport balloons and had no
contact with any of Raven's military contracts. Be that as it
may, following a 1987 interview in Balloon Life with Don
Piccard, where he described his civilian work with Raven, the
CIA library in Langley, Virginia, began to subscribe to the
magazine".

[...]

"Reflecting back to those days at Raven, Piccard thinks the
company's sport balloon division was a cover-up for the military
applications of ballooning. `The sport balloon program, which was
not believed in by the Raven Industry management, was strictly
getting this crazy guy who liked to fly in balloons and make
cover. So, when one of these other balloons went down, it would
just look like a sport balloonist'. When the Navy terminated its
contract with Raven, the sport balloon program died too. That was
in December of 1964".
[End]


Although generally realised that the reconnaissance
possibilities offered by hot-air balloons were overtaken by the
successful deployment of spy satellites, this is a significant
'cover up' claim by Piccard, one of the central figures in the
development of hot-air ballooning.

If the "military applications" program was terminated at the end
of 1964, then all work must have taken place before then.

Which means that there were a number of publicly undocumented,
hot-air balloon flights prior to December 1964 and these must
have taken place somewhere.

It's now known exactly where.


Some 'impossibilities' have been cited in opposition to the
suggestion (which was Larry Robinson's, not mine) that Zamora
possibly encountered a hot-air balloon.

Recent, unpublished, developments have proven that some
'impossibilities' are not based on a full understanding of the
overall situation at that time.

This has nothing to do with Zamora and everything to do with what
none of us realised about the work Don Piccard alludes to.

Until some further enquiries are resolved, it's not really
possible to say more and whether there might be a connection to
the Zamora sighting


The rumoured 'International Paper' balloon may be a misnomer.
Larry Robinson's recollections seem to involve elements of
different articles he read and which have become jumbled over
time.

It still requires some sorting out, however, the probabilities
are much clearer now.

As previously highlighted, Robinson claimed:

"1965-Feb 1967: I saw an article or ad showing the results of a
multi-state series of hot-air balloon flights. A map was
included, showing the landing points of the balloon and some
amusing anecdotes of things that happened to the balloonists.
One of these was an encounter with a lawman who they thought was
going to shoot it out with them. The balloon freaked him out.
The article said, "We later found out that he thought he was
seeing a space ship." IF ANYONE CAN POINT ME TO THIS ARTICLE, IT
MIGHT COMPLETE THE PROOF".

This 'multi-state series' was almost certainly a transcontinental
crossing of the U.S. by Tracy Barnes from April to September
1966.

As such, this could not have involved the Zamora case.

These flights were featured in a number of magazines and one
source - which hasn't yet been located - is the 'Popular
Science', July 1966 issue.

Interestingly, Robinson refers to 'Popular Science' as a magazine
he read:

3) Mar 1967: I bought the LOOK special on flying saucers.(2) I
first saw the account of the Socorro sighting here. For some
reason, the name Socorro NM was very familiar at the time,
because I had just seen it on a map. I thought of a map I saw in
Popular Science involving a performance run of a car, but
Socorro was not on it. I did not see the drawings Zamora made
until June 1968, in NICAP's "The UFO Evidence." I immediately
thought of the logo I had seen earlier, but I discounted a
balloon, because I did not know balloons could be noisy. [End]


As the July 1966 'Popular Science' article was written whilst
the transcontinental flights were ongoing, it couldn't have
featured a map of all the locations visited. It might have shown
the intended landing points.

If it did refer to a humorous incident, when a 'local cop
thought a hot-air balloon was a space-ship', it could still be a
knowledgeable reference to the Zamora incident from 1964.

That article is obviously important to see.

Does anyone have access to a copy?

Its contents and the possible significance of some other
matters, can hopefully be clarified before too long.


James.
E-mail: voyager@ukonline.co.uk









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   Aug > Aug 17

               Re: [CTRL] X-Files Version Of History Backed By

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 19:04:13 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 23:15:55 -0400
Subject: Re: [CTRL] X-Files Version Of History Backed By


 >Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 13:01:44 -0600
 >To: updates@globalserve.net
 >From: Don Allen <dona@amigo.net>
 >Subject: [CTRL] X-Files Version Of History Backed By CIA Report

 >Source: Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL]>

 >Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 12:07:54 -0600
 >From: Hilary A. Thomas <standingrock@PAGOSA.NET>
 >Subject: [CTRL] X-Files version of history is backed by CIA report
 >To: CTRL@LISTSERV.AOL.COM

 >  -Caveat Lector-

 >ISSUE 1544 Tuesday 17 August 1999

 >X-Files version of history is backed by CIA report
 >By Michael Smith

 >THE CIA has released a secret history of its investigations into
 >UFO sightings, revealing that there was more truth in the
 >popular television series The X-Files than is often believed.>

 >The highly critical report describes often bitter debates
 >between real-life X-Files investigators who believed that "the
 >truth is out there" and their sceptical bosses. It records tales
 >of bumbling undercover agents whose activities fuelled a
 >widespread belief that the government was covering up what the
 >agency described as "extra-terrestrial visitations by

<snip>

 >The report, written by Gerald K Haines, the official CIA
 >historian, was commissioned by the then CIA director James
 >Woolsey in 1993 in the wake of renewed claims of a CIA-led
 >cover-up. It calls for the first time on documents that the
 >agency hid from UFO enthusiasts who obtained thousands of more
 >mundane files under the Freedom of Information Act. The report,
 >completed in 1997, has been released at the request of the
 >British academic journal Intelligence and National Security and
 >is published in its summer issue this month.


Well, this is one of the least historically-informed messages
I've seen posted recently.

To imagine that Haines' report was released "at the request of
the British academic journal" is sheer nonsense.

Haines' report was published in the unclassified spring edition
of Studies in Intelligence here in the good old US of A two
years ago. It caused a big press flap when the press discovered
it in early August of 1997.

The only new information provided by the report (everything else
was in the FOIPA documents released by the CIA 20 years ago!)
was that the men running the high altitude spy plane, U-2
project, believed (apparently) that their plane caused lots of
UFO sightings. (i.e., misidentifications of the U-2) This was
nonsense... as demonstrated by an article I wrote and posted
in June, 1997, long before the press was even aware that the
article by Haines existed.






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                     Re: Socorro: The Zamora 'Insignia'

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 19:04:07 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 23:14:50 -0400
Subject: Re: Socorro: The Zamora 'Insignia'


 >Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 13:40:52 -0400
 >From: Andy Roberts <Brigantia@compuserve.com>
 >Subject: Re: Socorro: The Zamora 'Insignia'
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>

 >>From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
 >>Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 08:55:05 EDT
 >>Subject: Re: Socorro: The Zamora 'Insignia'
 >>To: updates@globalserve.net>


 >>I'll go you one better than that. In the Project Blue Book file

<snip>

 >But if Zamora *did* see and misperceive a balloon,
 >and if these two witnesses saw the same object, a balloon
 >is what they also saw.

 >The fact that they were anonymous and the report wasn't checked
 >needs no comment at all.

 >Why attempts to explain Zamora's sighting reasonably and
 >in terms of known objects causes so much problems with some
 >people is a mystery in itself. Don't you *want* to identify
 >what he saw?


No problem with attempts to explain the sighting..... providing
these "attempts" are themselves logical.

So far, I've seen much illogic (like the hot air blower pointing
downwared and firing through the bottom of the gondola to
explain the smouldering bushes...... or, if not that, then at
least tipped on its side when they turned it on and it blasted
some vegetation before being uprighted..... but even that would
have to happen through the WALL of the gondola.....)

Yes, if you "want" something enough... you can have it!







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                     Re: Socorro: The Zamora 'Insignia'

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 99 18:40:27 PDT
Fwd Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 23:23:36 -0400
Subject: Re: Socorro: The Zamora 'Insignia'


 >Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 13:40:52 -0400
 >From: Andy Roberts <Brigantia@compuserve.com>
 >Subject: Re: Socorro: The Zamora 'Insignia'
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>

 >>From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
 >>Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 08:55:05 EDT
 >>Subject: Re: Socorro: The Zamora 'Insignia'
 >>To: updates@globalserve.net


Hi, Andy,

 >Why attempts to explain Zamora's sighting reasonably and
 >in terms of known objects causes so much problems with some
 >people is a mystery in itself. Don't you *want* to identify
 >what he saw?

With all due respect, I think you've missed the point.  We
_haven't_ been given a reasonable explanation "in terms of known
objects."  What we've been given instead, in a fashion all too
familiar to ufologists over the long, dreary history of UFO
debunking, is an unreasonable explanation which fits not at all
with the known object to which that explanation claims to link a
putative UFO.

Given the choice between a lousy explanation and no explanation,
any reasonable observer would go with the latter.  Anybody who
is concerned with truth-seeking in UFO (and other) matters
_should_ have "problems" with shoddy theorizing, and where the
Socorro CE2/CE3 is concerned, that's all we've been given so
far.

Jerry Clark







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               Re: Failed Polygraph Yields Unexpected Benefit

From: Jan Aldrich <jan@cyberzone.net>
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 18:39:46 -0700
Fwd Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 23:27:16 -0400
Subject: Re: Failed Polygraph Yields Unexpected Benefit


 >From: Ryan S. Wood <rswood@igc.apc.org>
 >Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 16:51:34 -0800
 >Fwd Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 21:03:45 -0400
 >Subject: Failed Polygraph Yields Unexpected Benefit


"Oceania has always been at war with East Asia."

                         -- '1984' George Orwell

--
Jan Aldrich






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                     Re: Socorro: The Zamora 'Insignia'

From: Mark Cashman <mcashman@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 20:13:53 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 23:32:39 -0400
Subject: Re: Socorro: The Zamora 'Insignia'


 >Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 13:40:52 -0400
 >From: Andy Roberts <Brigantia@compuserve.com>
 >Subject: Re: Socorro: The Zamora 'Insignia'
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>

 >Why attempts to explain Zamora's sighting reasonably and
 >in terms of known objects causes so much problems with some
 >people is a mystery in itself. Don't you *want* to identify
 >what he saw?

Hi, Andy!

If you read my previous post, you would see that the problem
lies not in a reaction to an attempt to present a mundane
explanation  (in other words, we are not looking at a
non-rational rejection of a hypothesis), but in the content of
the proposed hypothesis and its fit to the evidence.

Hypotheses like the balloon hypothesis for Socorro, the pelican
hypothesis for the Arnold sighting, the kite hypothesis for the
initial Exeter sighting, and the migrane theory of CE-IIIs
founder on the observations, the witnesses, and the facts of the
universe as we know it. In my original post I showed that the
hot-air balloon hypothesis cannot account for more than a
fraction of the Socorro observation. Indeed, it should have been
immediately obvious to anyone that it did not.

A hypothesis which discards data which is inconvenient for it
without extensive justification does not deserve consideration.

Period.

In our field, that means data about perceptual and cognitive
psychology, calibrated against the specific witness in question,
is required before claiming they are suffering from perceptual
or cognitive error.

As a field investigator, I look at every case as hard as I can,
with the full belief that I will find a mundane explanation.
When every effort I can exert to demonstrate such an explanation
as accounting for _the vast majority_ of the observations fail,
then I accept the case as unidentified, with a probability
rating based on the type of witnesses, their number, the
observational conditions, the consistency of the account, and
any supporting physical evidence.

As a historical researcher, I am fully aware that there is
always a possibility that even an apparently solid case will
disintegrate under close scrutiny. Nevertheless, there are some
cases which have remained a mystery after decades of
investigation and reinvestigation. Socorro is one of these.
Cases that have attained this stature definitely place an onus
on the hypothesizer to demonstrate congruence of the proposed
explanatory phenomena to the observations in the case. In other
words, they bear the burden of proof.

Period.

Neither I nor anyone else are required to demonstrate why their
hypothesis should not gain immediate and widespread acceptance.
They must demonstrate why it should, and do so to the community
of those knowledgable about the case. When that fails, it is
their job to admit failure and go make a better hypothesis.

Personally, I am quite weary of the laziness of the people who
toss out these easily falsifible hypotheses. When I investigate
a case, the result is typically tens of pages of supporting
documentation, measurements, and calculations, which require
days of effort to produce.

The armchair fantasists, on the other hand, alter the facts of
the case, or airily speculate that the witness _must_ have been
mistaken about major sections of their observations, and
apparently feel no responsibilty to support this with empirical
or quantitative proof. Why should I or anyone else pay any
attention to their fantasies?

Sadly, the answer is that there are many people who lack
knowledge of science, and who are willing to accept this stuff
as a subsititute for real scientific activity, just as the New
Age wing of UFO studies accepts Ashtar, Montauk, and Meier and
the rest of the junk that occupies their end of the spectrum.
Intellectual honesty compels serious researchers to dispute the
garbage that passes for thought in both instances.

Unfortunately, it also takes time that we can ill-afford. Real
UFO data is out there. I have 940 cases currently in the Project
1947 EM Effects catalog - every one a CE-II. Instead of working
on them, I end up explaining how hot-air balloons work and
behave to people who are too lazy or ignorant to find out for
themselves before they make silly proposals.

Then the same people who waste our time with that sort of
garbage mutter darkly about how ufology isn't progressing, and
how resistant the "believers" are to mundane explanations.

Sheesh!

------
Mark Cashman, creator of The Temporal Doorway at
http://www.temporaldoorway.com
- Original digital art, writing, music and UFO research -

UFO cases, analysis, classification systems, and more...
http://www.temporaldoorway.com/ufo/index.htm
------







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               Daylight Disk Reported in Eastern Pennsylvania

From: Stan Gordon <paufo@westol.com>
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 21:53:15 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 23:37:41 -0400
Subject: Daylight Disk Reported in Eastern Pennsylvania


Daylight Disk Reported in Eastern Pennsylvania: UFO Sightings
Active Across The State

Yesterday afternoon, I received a report from woman, whose young
son had related to her details of something strange he had just
observed. The incident took place about 5 miles from Reading, PA
in Berks County. The lady told me how her son ran into the house
very excited and described a silver disk that he observed high
in the sky. I had the opportunity to talk with the lad who
sounded very mature for his age, and he was able to give me a
detailed account of what took place. He had checked the time,
and says that the sighting occurred at 2:12 P.M.  The
preliminary information indicates the boy was outside watching
some birds flying around, when his attention was drawn to a
silver disk shaped object above him and high in the sky. The
object appeared motionless during the time he observed it. The
young man stated that at the bottom of the disk, he could see
what looked like a figure U that was dark green in color. As the
boy watched, suddenly the object zoomed off at a high rate of
speed towards the South. The witness recalls a low rumble as the
object sped out of sight in a matter of seconds. More
information on this case is being gathered.

During July and August, there has been an apparent surge in UFO
sighting activity being reported around the state. The National
UFO Reporting Center lists numerous reports that they have
received, many are from eastern sections of the state. There
have also been incidents reported from other locations of the
commonwealth as well. Some of the cases I am currently looking
into include numerous colored lights and odd beams illuminating
the sky in Indiana County, and an account from a woman who was
sitting in her car near a suburb of Pittsburgh, who reports that
a silent wide beam of light suddenly appeared above her and
projected downward, illuminating the inside of her vehicle. She
immediately got out of the car, but could not see or hear
anything that could account for the source of the bright beam.

I am interested in any anomalous events reported in Pennsylvania.

Stan Gordon

PA UFO Hotline: 724-838-7768

Stan Gordon's UFO Anomalies Zone: http://www.westol.com/~paufo






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                     Re: Socorro: The Zamora 'Insignia'

From: GT McCoy <gtmccoy@harborside.com>
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 18:32:54 -0700
Fwd Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 23:45:32 -0400
Subject: Re: Socorro: The Zamora 'Insignia'


 >Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 13:40:52 -0400
 >From: Andy Roberts <Brigantia@compuserve.com>
 >Subject: Re: Socorro: The Zamora 'Insignia'
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>

Hello all, I was praying that the subject of Pelicans would go
away. It did.


 >>From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
 >>Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 08:55:05 EDT
 >>Subject: Re: Socorro: The Zamora 'Insignia'
 >>To: updates@globalserve.net

Let me start by saying: New Mexico in April is a lousy time to
fly Balloons. Wind and dust are not condusive to Good Balloon
travel.

 >>I'll go you one better than that. In the Project Blue Book file
 >>there is a letter suggesting that two men from Dubuque, Iowa,
 >>traveling in New Mexico at the time saw the same craft. The
 >>letter writer didn't have any names but said the article
 >>appeared on the front page of the Dubuque newspaper. Apparently
 >>no one ever followed up on this.
 >>Took me almost twenty minutes to find the article. Paul Kies and
 >>Larry Kratzer claimed they saw the same object as Zamora. They
 >>didn't add much in the way of additional descriptions, but did
 >>provide some corroboration of the Zamora sighting.

 >But if Zamora *did* see and misperceive a balloon,
 >and if these two witnesses saw the same object, a balloon
 >is what they also saw.

 >The fact that they were anonymous and the report wasn't checked
 >needs no comment at all.

 >Why attempts to explain Zamora's sighting reasonably and
 >in terms of known objects causes so much problems with some
 >people is a mystery in itself. Don't you *want* to identify
 >what he saw?

Let's start with what he didn't see, 1: A helicopter of the era
too noisy. 2: Swamp Gas Socorro? 3: A Balloon of the Hot Air
type (oh, I'm not going  any farther with that) .

What ever Zamora saw (I'm almost convinced it might have been a
little somthing that had wandered "off range" at white sands -
but not quite). I think that Zamora was not a fool and at least
knew what a hot air balloon was. International paper should
have a record of the balloon's exploits - somebody should have.
April in the Southwest is windy - very windy. I don't think it
would be a good time to hold the Socorro Balloon Festival.

-GT McCoy






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                              Y2K And Your VCR

From: Donald Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 21:44:36 -0300
Fwd Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 23:54:48 -0400
Subject: Y2K And Your VCR


Sorry, Errol but I thought this worth repeating.

Don

------

Tip for the day:

If your VCR has a year setting on it, which most do, you will
not be able to use the programmed recording feature after
12/31/99.

Don't throw it away.

Instead set it for the year 1972 as the days are the same as the
year 2000.

The manufacturers won't tell you. They want you to buy a new Y2K
VCR. Pass this along to all your friends.


Michelle Norman






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                     Re: Socorro: The Zamora 'Insignia'

From: Donald Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 21:53:14 -0300
Fwd Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 00:04:11 -0400
Subject: Re: Socorro: The Zamora 'Insignia'


 >Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 13:40:52 -0400
 >From: Andy Roberts <Brigantia@compuserve.com>
 >Subject: Re: Socorro: The Zamora 'Insignia'
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>

 >>From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
 >>Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 08:55:05 EDT
 >>Subject: Re: Socorro: The Zamora 'Insignia'
 >>To: updates@globalserve.net

 >>I'll go you one better than that. In the Project Blue Book file
 >>there is a letter suggesting that two men from Dubuque, Iowa,
 >>traveling in New Mexico at the time saw the same craft. The
 >>letter writer didn't have any names but said the article
 >>appeared on the front page of the Dubuque newspaper. Apparently
 >>no one ever followed up on this.
 >>Took me almost twenty minutes to find the article. Paul Kies and
 >>Larry Kratzer claimed they saw the same object as Zamora. They
 >>didn't add much in the way of additional descriptions, but did
 >>provide some corroboration of the Zamora sighting.

 >But if Zamora *did* see and misperceive a balloon,
 >and if these two witnesses saw the same object, a balloon
 >is what they also saw.

 >The fact that they were anonymous and the report wasn't checked
 >needs no comment at all.

 >Why attempts to explain Zamora's sighting reasonably and
 >in terms of known objects causes so much problems with some
 >people is a mystery in itself. Don't you *want* to identify
 >what he saw?

What do you mean by identify Andy?. Do you mean when only 50
percent of the facts fit or 60 percent...or are you referring to
100 percent. We are nowhere near 100 percent yet so why blow it
off?

Don





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                        'New?' FBI memo about Roswell

From: Henny van der Pluijm <hvdp@worldonline.nl>
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 04:35:02 +0200 (MET DST)
Fwd Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 00:09:30 -0400
Subject: 'New?' FBI memo about Roswell


Found this at http://www.space.com/area51/websightings_812.html


For old-school UFOlogists, the Paranormal News published an FBI
memo concerning the 1947 Roswell object and 12 pages of Project
Blue Book documents. Although the Blue Book documents were
introductory in nature, the Roswell memo described the object
recovered as "a flying disc � hexagonal in shape � the object
found resembles a high-altitude weather balloon with a radar
reflector, but that telephone conversation between their office
and Wright Field had not borne out this belief."

Is this new?





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                     Re: Socorro: The Zamora 'Insignia'

From: Brian Cuthbertson <brianc@fc.net>
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 23:09:13 -0500 (CDT)
Fwd Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 12:52:33 -0400
Subject: Re: Socorro: The Zamora 'Insignia'


 >From: Martin Jeffrey <martin-j@lineone.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
 >Subject: Re: Socorro: The Zamora 'Insignia'
 >Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 21:51:06 +0100

 >Further to the previous emails

 >I have read the emails from James Easton and Robert Moore with
 >great interest and feel that the following information should be
 >taken in to account.

 >Zamora after the sighting reported to his collegues, that he saw
 >the red insignia as "una 'V' invertido con tres lineas debajo"
 >which translates "an inverted 'V' with three parallel lines
 >underneath."

To add a perhaps irrelevant aside to this thread:  there is, in
Linda Moulton Howe's recent book, "Glimpses of Other Realities,
Volume II: High Strangess" in Chapter 1 ("Military Voices") the
report of a special forces soldier of a Vietnam War incident, in
September 1971.  A group of some 14 men on a special mission to
Cambodia encountered a shiny object landed in a jungle clearing,
with some 20 humanoids around it.  To make a long story short,
after an unfortunate shooting incident the beings entered the
craft and it left.  The part relevant here is a very interesting
drawing of the craft by the soldier - looks vaguely similar to
Zamorra's description.  Here's the caption next to his drawing:

  Plate 43 - Spherical craft with symbol etched in mirrored
             surface that matches symbol drawn by Officer
             Lonnie Samora in Socorro, New Mexico on April
             24, 1964.  Drawing by Joe from 1971 Cambodia
             encounter.


The symbol is an inverted V, with a vertical line inside it, and
a horizontal line under it.  Covering the inverted V like a dome
is a half circle.

A reproduction of Lonnie Zamora's drawing appears on the next
page, and the match is almost exact.

According to the report, upon their return to base camp, the
special forces unit members were sequestered and intensely
grilled about the incident by the CIA, using drugs like Seconal.
Quite a tale ...

Well anyway, for what its worth ...

-Brian Cuthbertson





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   Aug > Aug 18

               Re: Black helicopters in Jane's Defence Weekly

From: Leanne Martin <leanne_martin@hotmail.com>
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 23:14:24 PDT
Fwd Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 13:01:07 -0400
Subject: Re: Black helicopters in Jane's Defence Weekly


 >From: GT McCoy <gtmccoy@harborside.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
 >Subject: Re: Black helicopters in Jane's Defence Weekly
 >Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 20:17:55 -0700

 >>Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 13:17:52 -0400
 >>From: Terry Blanton <commengr@bellsouth.net>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Black helicopters in Jane's Defence Weekly

 >>>Date: Fri, 31 Aug 1956 10:29:49 +0000
 >>>From: Josh Goldstein <clearlt@pacbell.net>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
 >>>Subject: Re: Black helicopters in Jane's Defence Weekly


Hi Listers,


Appropos the chopper noise issue (not that I like to give the
conspiracy theorists anything else to take on board):

Haven't you guys heard about inverse noise propagation?

Inverse noise propagation is a noise generation technique which
uses an inverse wave form noise pattern to counteract the
original noise source. For example negative one (-1) added to
positive one (+1) equals zero -  just done with sound.

[Noise cancelling microphones do it electronically with pickup
signal inversion.]

I believe the technique is in development for jet aircraft noise
and I know that some good work has already been done with car
echaust noise.

Regards to all theorists,

Leanne  ];-o





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   Aug > Aug 18

                   Noble Lawmen Find NASA Official In Cave

From: Stephen MILES Lewis <elfis@austin.rr.com>
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 09:27:01 +0000
Fwd Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 13:03:21 -0400
Subject: Noble Lawmen Find NASA Official In Cave


Is this for real?

SMiles

-=-=-=-=-

From: Terry W. Colvin <fortean@primenet.com>
To: forteana@primenet.com <forteana@primenet.com>
Subject: Noble lawmen find NASA official in cave
Date: Wed, Aug 18, 1999, 6:40 AM


http://members.aol.com/phikent/orbit/orbit.html

The Daily & Sunday Jeffersonian

Posted 8/13/99

Noble lawmen find NASA official in cave

Kevin Macri

The Daily Jeffersonian

CALDWELL - Noble County Sheriff Landon T. Smith apprehended
a Florida man Tuesday who was found living in a cave near
Wolf Run State Park.

Smith said his office received a call last Sunday of a
person in a car with Florida license plates who was behaving
strangely. Deputies were unable to locate the vehicle.
Tuesday, a second call was received regarding a vehicle that
matched the same description parked on a township road in
the area of the park.

When deputies arrived on the scene, they found the vehicle
packed full of supplies, but could not locate the driver.

Smith had the vehicle transported to the Noble County Jail
and began a search.

"We got to thinking that possibly something had happened to
the driver. We went out to search the area and tracked a
person through a field and wooded areas," he said. "We then
found rope that led down embankments and ravines. When we
got to the bottom of a second ravine we found him in a cave.
He was trying to boil eggs. It was real smoky. In fact,
some of the deputies didn't like it in his cave."

Smith said the man, Lloyd Albright, 47, of Satellite Beach,
Fla., was cooperative, but because of his suspicious
behavior, Smith placed him under arrest in order to remove
him from the property.

According to Smith, Albright said he was hiding in the cave
to avoid meteor showers which he said will hit the Atlantic
Ocean and cause a 200-foot tidal wave, wreaking havoc on the
East Coast and Florida.

Upon investigating Albright further, Smith found the man to
be a computer programer for NASA.

In his vehicle, a late model Saturn, he found 16 weapons
with ammunition, camping gear, dried food, blankets,
clothing and 200 pounds of wheat.

"I spoke with his wife and she said he was concerned about
the meteor shower. She said he wanted the rest of the family
to join him but they declined his offer."

Smith said Albright said he learned about the cave by
searching the Internet.
--
Terry W. Colvin, Sierra Vista, Arizona (USA)
fortean@primenet.com







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                     Re: Socorro: The Zamora 'Insignia'

From: Perry Mick <bridgingworlds@hotmail.com>
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 05:24:09 -0700
Fwd Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 13:06:58 -0400
Subject: Re: Socorro: The Zamora 'Insignia'


 >From: GT McCoy <gtmccoy@harborside.com>
 >To: "UFO UpDates - Toronto" <updates@globalserve.net>
 >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Socorro: The Zamora 'Insignia'
 >Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 18:32:54 -0700

<snip>

 >April in the Southwest is windy - very windy. I don't think it
 >would be a good time to hold the Socorro Balloon Festival.

<snip>

I can attest to that, flew across NM in a C172 in April one year
and really got beat up by turbulence.  It cleared up when I got
to Arizona.

Also, I don't think anyone's mentioned this:  Zamora's boss arrived
on the scene a few minutes after the event, while Zamora was still
there.  Zamora's boss didn't see the craft.  How could a balloon
disappear so quickly?






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                                Socorro Metal

From: Jerry Anderson <jerry@uforesearch.freeserve.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 22:37:56 +0100
Fwd Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 18:28:57 -0400
Subject: Socorro Metal


Dear Errol and list,

As you know, there were small deposits of metal found on one of
the stones at the landing site. This was presumably where the
landing gear of the object touched down, scraping against a
quartz impregnated rock.

Unfortunately, Ray Stanford lost some of the material through
careless handling, but those that remained were analysed by Dr.
Frankel of NASA's Goddard Lab.

On Wednesday, 29th July 1964, the results of the analysis were
passed to Ray Stanford.

Here is the excerpt from Stanford's 'Socorro Saucer':

Frankel: "We have analysed the particles that were clinging to
the rocks surface,' Frankel told me. 'The particles are
comprised of a material that could not occur naturally.
Specifically, it consists predominantly of two metallic
elements, zinc and iron, with minute traces of other elements,
and there is something that is rather exciting about the
zinc-iron alloy of which we find the particles to consist: Our
charts of all alloys known known to be manufactured on Earth,
the USSR included, do not show any alloy of the specific
combination or ratio of the two main elements involved here.
This finding definitely strengthens the case that might be made
for an extraterrestrial origin of the Socorro object."

Frankel goes on to say: "I am virtually certain that the alloy
involved here is not manufactured anywhere on Earth."

Dr. Frankel suggested that there were other tests he would
conduct to show the percentages of each element. However, every
time Stanford contacted Frankel after that, he was effectively
fobbed off with some petty excuse by Frankel's secretary. Some
time later, Stanford received a phone call from one Thomas P.
Siacca Jr. of the Spacecraft Systems Branch of NASA. Siacca told
Stanford that he had been told to call him to give him the
official conclusion of the Socorro analysis. "Everything Dr.
Frankel told you was a mistake....the sample was determined to
be silica, SiO2."

Quite a turn-around by NASA. Effectively blaming an eminent
'in-house' analyst for making such an unbelievable mistake!
Balloons.....

I think not!






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                      Re: 'New?' FBI memo about Roswell

From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 16:49:03 -0300
Fwd Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 18:15:37 -0400
Subject: Re: 'New?' FBI memo about Roswell


 >From: Henny van der Pluijm <hvdp@worldonline.nl>
 >Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 04:35:02 +0200 (MET DST)
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
 >Subject: 'New?' FBI memo about Roswell

 >Found this at >http://www.space.com/area51/websightings_812.html

 >For old-school ufologists, the Paranormal News published
 >an FBI memo concerning the 1947 Roswell object and 12 pages
 >of Project Blue Book documents. Although the Blue Book
 >documents were introductory in nature, the Roswell memo
 >described the object recovered as "a flying disc -
 >hexagonal in shape - the object found resembles a
 >high-altitude weather balloon with a radar reflector, but
 >that telephone conversation between their office
 >and Wright Field had not borne out this belief."

 >Is this new?


This document is definitely _not_ new.

It was originally received by Dr. Bruce Maccabee in the late
1970s, with about 1600 other FBI UFO pages, in response to his
FOIA request.

It is included in the 1980 book "The Roswell Incident" by
Charles Berlitz and William  L. Moore and included in Bill's
(1985) 50 page MUFON Symposium Paper 'Crashed Saucers --Evidence
in Search of Proof' ($8.00 including P. and H from UFORI, POB
958, Houlton, ME 04730-0958).

It is also selectively quoted from in a totally deceptive
fashion, as might be expected, by Colonel Richard Weaver in 'The
Roswell Report Fact vs. Fiction in the New Mexico Desert'.

He had the chutzpah to leave out the clause starting "but
telephonic (sic) conversation...."

I noted this and many other deceptive comments by Weaver in my
1994, 27 page paper "Roswell Incident, USAF, and NY Times" ($4.
from UFORI.) and also in my 1996  book TOP SECRET/MAJIC
(autographed, hard cover only $15 from UFORI) page 114.

Yes, there really was a lot done before the internet became so
popular..

Stanton Friedman





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                     Re: Socorro: The Zamora 'Insignia'

From: Andy Roberts <Brigantia@compuserve.com>
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 13:44:00 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 18:41:17 -0400
Subject: Re: Socorro: The Zamora 'Insignia'


 >Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 21:53:14 -0300
 >From: Donald Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
 >To: updates@globalserve.net
 >Subject: Re: Socorro: The Zamora 'Insignia'

Don Ledger wrote:

 >What do you mean by identify Andy?. Do you mean when only 50
 >percent of the facts fit or 60 percent...or are you referring to
 >100 percent. We are nowhere near 100 percent yet so why blow it
 >off?

I mean what I say, 'identify', ie work towards the state when
the nature and origin of the Socorro object is known.
Unfortunately in this discussion all I've seen so far is a lot
of self opinionated people stating what it can't possibly be
because...well, because a lot of reasons I suspect.

It may have been a hot air balloon, it may not. But look at it
another way.

* We know balloons exist

* We have some evidence to suggest that they may well have been
flown in that area of America at that time

* There is some suggestion that a platform-like structure may
have been used on balloons at this time

* We know that the insignia looked similar to an insignia
used on a balloon

* Zamora radioed in that the object, 'looks like a balloon.'

* He noted the figures 'looked normal in shape' (like human
balloon pilots?)

* He noted the 'object was smooth, no doors or windows' (like a
balloon?)

* The object's ease of silent movement and lifting slowly is
largely consistent with a balloon.

and so on........

Now those points, to my sceptical mind, makes me think there is
a very real possibility a hot-air balloon may have been
involved. True, it doesn't explain some of Zamora's statement -
but much of what he said fits a hot air balloon. So why this
theory hasn't been taken seriously by many on this list astounds
and worries me.

 >From: GT McCoy <gtmccoy@harborside.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
 >Subject: Re: Socorro: The Zamora 'Insignia'
 >Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 18:32:54 -0700

GT Mcoy opined:

 >I think that Zamora was not a fool and at least
 >knew what a hot air balloon was.

Well, he did say it 'looks like a balloon' GT! But in any case
no witness describes their experience perfectly and they are
_all_ subject to the vagaries of misperception. Zamora may have
been a policeman but I'm afraid the UFO subject is littered with
examples of policemen (alone and in groups) misperceiving
everything from planes to stars as 'UFOs', chasing said
misperceptions for miles and so on. So please don't try to tell
me we should take a literal view of the whole sighting!

With any UFO case it's perfectly reasonable (before you all
start yipping) -nay, essential - to fit any relevant parts of
the sighting to phenomena we already know exist. Which in this
case is why the balloon theory is perfectly feasible.

Oh, alright, I'm a pelicanist and proud!

Happy Trails

Andy






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                          Scotish Sighting Reports

From: Dave Ledger <dledger@cableinet.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 23:49:40 +0100
Fwd Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 14:40:04 -0400
Subject: Scotish Sighting Reports

Dear Errol & Listmembers,

FYI, here are a few reports and sightings that have been
submitted to the UFO Scotland sightings submission page on our
website, over the past few weeks or so.

Please note that many of the sightings that we receive cannot
possibly be further researched by ourselves due to the location
being outwith the Scotland area amongst other things.

Therefore, if any investigators or researchers near the location
of any sightings which may be reported by ourselves in the
future IE: outside Scotland, could possibly get in touch with
the sightees or follow up on the report or provide any
assistance and support needed, then the submission would not
have been in vain. That is also providing you deem it worthy of
further investigation of course.

We do try to weed out any probable hoaxes etc before sending out
the reports to you all, but at the same time, we try to remain
open minded enough to provide the support needed by the many
experiencers also. As many of you who have experienced a real
anomalous UFO sighting will already know, it can be a life
changing experience and difficult to deal with mentally,
especially the closer encounters.

The Scotland reports follow below:

Name : Pamela Hunter
date: : 28th June 1999
location: : In the skies above Mayfield In Midlothian, Scotland.
time : 23.20  or  11.20pm

My_Sighting_Submission : As I am in the flight path for flights
going in to Edinburgh airport, it,s not unusual to see
head-lights from aircraft etc. However this time , I was having
my last coffee in the garden (as it was a clear night where i
am,) I was looking at the sky when I noticed a very bright light
and very HIGH like a star. It was moving in a straight line. At
first I thought it was a plane, but the light was too bright and
too far a away i just knew it was different I,ve never seen
anything like this before. I followed this light for approx
20/30 seconds then the light dropped from the sky towards earth.
It was so fast, it looked as though it dropped 100,s of feet in
a very short space of a second or two.  Then the light continued
in a straight line again then quickly moved of and disappeared.
I was taken aback. So much so that I had to phone Edinburgh
Airport  to report it in case there was something they should
have known about.  They only knew of the Aircraft ! that had
been on that flight path at approx 11.15pm five minutes before
the incident. This I knew about as I had also been watching that
aircraft. But this incident happened about 5 minutes after.
Airtraffic control were not aware of anything else in the sky.
I am absolutely amazed at what I have just seen and feel the
need to talk to someone else about this, in the hope that
someone else saw this.  By the way there was no brandy or
whisky in my coffee!!!

******************************************************************

Star-like object Sighted in Central Scotland
Source: Eye-Witness Report by   LesPeck@aol.com
Date:   Friday , 21st May 1999
Time:   11:10 pm approx

Friday, May 21st - 23.10 approx. A small object, same size and
colour as a star, crossed the southern sky (West to East).
Binoculars did not significantly enlarge the image. It was not a
plane - there were no flashing lights; it was just a star-type
object, travelling steadily West to East until is disappeared
behind clouds. It took about 90 seconds to cross one-third of
the sky. Do satellites travel West to East at high speeds?

(Editors Note: After researching my own personal sighting of
star like objects. I can tell the readers that "Yes" satellites
can travel in almost any direction across the sky and sometimes
they do appear to be moving quite fast. However, if the objects
either stop or change direction suddenly, as they did during our
own sighting in August 1997, then it is highly unlikely that
these objects will be satellites.)

****************************************************************

Mystery UFO sighting in Dunfries, Scotland.
Date: Friday 21st May 1999
Time: 11:54 pm
Source: Dumfries & Galloway Standard 13th August 1999.
(Forwarded by UFO Scotland member, Mark Fraser at Haunted
Scotland)



Driving through Thornhill the other morning I happened to see
the ad for the Friday Standard, so here it is below..........

An appeal has gone out for help in identifying a mystery object
that zipped across the night-time skies of Dumfries.

Witness Mark McClevlland could hardly believe his eyes as the
glowing, oblong shaped craft took just seconds to appear and
disappear heading west towards the Stewarty.

The incident happened at the end of May but Mark only decided to
talk about it this week.

He was afraid of the ridicule that can be associated with UFO
witnesses. "I suppose curiosity has the better of me." He said
at his home in Cargenbridge Avenue.

"We have had the anniversary of the Moon landings and the
Eclipse so I thought this week was the appropriate time.

"I want to know what it was I saw and hear from anyone else who
may of seen it."

The sighting happened at 11.45pm on Friday, May 21 in Lochside.
Mark was on a Veranda at flats in Lewars Avenue.

                                          By Doug Archibald

"It was moving far faster than any jet I have ever seen in the
area- Mach 2 least," he said.

"Its whole body was glowing and its unusual speed made me think
it was a Meteor at first. But it had no Vaporisation trail
behind or any bright friction glow in front.

"It was a short, thick oblong, almost a mere line, glowing a
dull red or orange colour.

"It was hard to be sure but I thought its colour varied in
intensity or shimmered slightly along its length.

"Its port dipped ‘side’ was about 30 degrees but it
maintained straight and level flight throughout.

"There was no visible navigation light of the type you should
see winking away on an aircraft at night. Nor did I see any
exhaust spikes behind it."

Mark estimated the object was about the size of a jet fighter
around 2,000 feet. he said there was no noise and he is
absolutely certain it was neither a meteor or a satellite." I
have no idea what it was," he said. "But I would like to find
out."

A police spokeswoman said there had been no reports of strange
craft in the skies at the time.

An RAF spokesman said too much time has elapsed to check whether
planes had been flying at that time. " There is no reason why a
plane Should not have been flying over Dumfries though," he
said.

As long as it was above 2,000 feet it is all right. After 11pm
low flying stops."

He said a fast flying jet would "almost inevitably make a noise".

****************************************************************

Name : James
date: : March 99
location: : Above Inverness
time : 20.30 pm

My_Sighting_Submission : Myself and two friends saw a bright
light which appeared to come from the direction of the moon.
When first spotted it was stationary and then appeared to head
in a Southerly direction, at what seemed a phenomenal speed.  It
glowed white the whole time, not giving off any noise or any
tail wind to show propulsion.

****************************************************************

Name : Tony Hughes
date: : 23/06/99
location: : M8 Motorway approx. 1 mile from A720 Ed Bypass
time : 11.40 pm

My_Sighting_Submission : Driving back from Manchester to Fife we
were on the M8 heading west (Glasgow direction) into the fading
light when I spotted a bullet-shaped object 'hovering' in the
air approx 20 feet from the edge of the carriageway and approx
20 feet in the air. I slowed down and pointed it out to my
father who thought it looked round, I thought more cylindrical.
I didn't want to stop the vehicle. I saw no ropes or lines
attached to it tethering it to the ground and it was not moving
in the breeze. Once past it we could not see it as it had
blended into the background of the black eastern sky.

****************************************************************

Subject: Flashes of light and things.......
Date: Sunday, 21st February 1999
From: <MarkFraser@hauntedscotland.freeserve.co.uk>

1999.Ayrshire

Sunday evening, 21st February 1999.........These flashes were
reported over Ayrshire, from Kilmarnock to Ardrossan. The towns
are 15 miles apart and were seen over both towns at the same
time by two people who on the telephone to each other. The first
reported flashes were around 18.00hrs, until 22.00hrs. One male
head loud bangs in Kilmarnock at 21.58hrs straight after one
flash. I also saw several of these flashes and would describe
them as bright blue in colour\ while others were brilliant
white.......... lighting  the whole sky, somewhat akin to a
camera flash.

Thunder & lightening........!?!

The area often experiences these type of localised flashes of
light along with ground rumblings, vibratory noises.....
humming..... buzzing sounds, any idea's would be appreciated.
Also reported along the west coast are the meteor type UFO's,
along with the orangy fiery balls.

Some one put it to me that at Dounray they have some sort of EM
weapon, which is often tested in the area and could cause such
effects. Would appreciate your comments on this.

Strange lights were also seen over Fenwick recently which I am
at the moment looking into and will give you more details if and
when I get any.

****************************************************************

Subject: Dundee UFO Sighting.
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 20:29:11 +0100
Source: Dundee Courier and Advertiser 29th July 1999
Thanks to "Allan Robertson" (allan@robertson61.freeserve.co.uk)
for forwarding this report.


"UFO SIGHTING LEAVES BIG QUESTION MARK

It was just another Tuesday night in Monifieth for Jennifer
Young and her friend as they sat in her back garden enjoying a
chat and a glass of wine.

Average, that is, until they looked skyward and witnessed what
they both described as "completely unexplainable" and "straight
out of the X-Files."

The sighting at around 9.30 pm appeared to the women as a huge
fireball travelling through the sky in a northerly direction,
towards Forfar.

But the shape, which was "completely orange, did not seem to
have a vapour trail and made no sound," then stopped in its
tracks and changed direction, splitting into two vertical,
parallel lines."

Bemused and bewildered, the two sat gazing in awe at the sight
until Jennifer telephoned a friend in Monikie, who had also
witnessed the bizzare shapes.

Jennifer (25), who works in a gift shop in Broughty Ferry, said,
"It was amazing. As we watched the shapes, which were still
glowing orange, they appeared to alter shape again and bend into
a sort of question mark, without the dot.

" I don't know what it was, but I've never seen anything like it
before. I don't think there could be a plausible explanation for
it."

Neither Mills Observatory in Dundee nor the observatory in St
Andrews had anyone on duty at the time of the sighting and
equally had no explanation. However, Mills had a report from
someone in Tayport who had also seen an unusually coloured shape
flying over the Dundee area.

But although the scene was undoubtedly a strange one, there
seems to be a logical explanation for it.

A spokesman for the St Andrews Observatory said that a fighter
jet, travelling at high altitude would create vapour crystals
and cause the plane to take on the appearance of a fireball.

Likewise, the parallel lines could have been caused by the wing
tails, which would also account for the change of direction as
planes use their wings to alter their course.

The vapour would have then remained in the air and could have
easily been blown into the shape described by the friends.

But Jennifer refutes the explanation. "If you'd seen what we did
you would have a very hard time accepting the fact that it was a
jet. "I see jets flying over my house all the time. "It looked
like nothing I've
ever seen before."

****************************************************************

Subject: Grangemouth UFO? Date: Friday, 31st Jul 1999 Source:
UFO Scotland member "Jim horne" (raydyak@freezone.co.uk)

Tonight at 10-45pm,I had an anomalous sighting!! yellow/orange
light ,bright , it was definately not an aeroplane of any kind.
This is my 3rd anomalous sighting in two years , and in the same
piece of sky. I was all a fluster!!! trying to find
binoculars!!! some things going on?

****************************************************************

Subject: Bathgate UFO?
Date: Friday 31st July 1999 at around Midnight
Source: UFO Scotland member "David Colman"
         (David@supr.freeserve.co.uk)

Hi Dave, Some quick supporting info on this one.

David Colman Jnr and his friend also witnessed a large
yellow/orange/red ball in the sky above Boghall (a suburb of
Bathgate).  David tells me that a man approaching his house
triggered off a security light and as the light came on the boys
were stunned to see the light flare in the sky. David said, " It
was as if the light in the sky had responded to the security
light, it was really strange" I have as yet not interviewed the
second witness.  More when I speak with him. D. Colman (senior)

****************************************************************

Date: Mon, 9 Aug 1999 15:27:46 -0400
From: David Clarke <crazydiamonds@compuserve.com>
Subject: Mystery Bang in Scotland
To: UFO Updates <updates@globalserve.net>


The following item appeared in the Daily Telegraph
(London),  31 July 1999

"TOWN HIT BY MYSTERY TREMOR

"EMERGENCY services in Stornoway received a stream of calls
yesterday after buildings were shaken by a tremor.

"Coastguards in the Western Isles town said they even had a call
from a boat at sea after the crew felt severe vibrations. A
spokesman at the Royal Navy base at Faslane said there had not
been an earthquake and that the tremor must have been caused by
an explosion at sea, a supersonic aircraft or a missile.

"Glen Ford, a seismologist with the British Geological Survey in
Edinburgh, said: "We get about six of these mysteries a year."

Interesting to compare this with the mystery explosion and plane
crash which triggered a massive search of the Atlantic northwest
of Lewis in October 1996.

I predict that soon we shall be hearing more rumours of strange
objects retrieved from the sea in great secrecy by the
military...claims about top-level cover-ups and other hokum.

Either way, the RAF must be getting very careless with their
Tornadoes nowadays - this must be the second one they've lost to
the Flying Triangles in as many years.

Wonder where the pilot bailed out - as there's not many passing
minibuses to hitch rides on in the North Atlantic!

***************************************************************

Intelligent flashes in the Ayrshire skies?
Date: August 12th 1999
Time: Aprox 4:00 am
Location: Ayr, Scotland.


I received this e-mail post/report recently from a very good and
trusted friend of mine who wishes to remain anonymous for the
time being. I can tell you all that I trust this person 100% and
have no reasons personally to doubt their report.

Dear Dave,

Just a note to tell you of this...... you can use it if you feel
it worthy enough, but leave my name away  for the time being as
I am quite perplexed.


This occurred at 04.00hrs apprx Thursday morning (ED: that would
be August 12th 1999)..........we have all heard of flashing your
torch at the heavens to attract a UFO, to be honest I always
quite chuckled at this.

Well I work nights, this night\ morning was beautiful and clear
and at 03.30hrs I was quite frankly bloody bored and went to sit
on the roof to watch the sky and began flashing my flashlight
into the sky at a stationary star to the left of Venus.

To my utter astonishment the star (0341hrs) flashed back three
times and then began moving to the North East. I continued to
flash my light and every now and then it would flash back, until
it disappeared from my view.

I continued to flash my light into the sky and at 03.55hrs I
received another series of flashes from what I thought to be an
empty sky. I could not at first see what they were coming from,
but then I saw a moving light way high above, moving in more or
less the same direction as the first.

This also flashed a further twice in response to my torch. As
this light headed away into the night sky, another light came in
from over the coast in the west. This was at a much lower
altitude and as I watched it, it just blinked out of existence.

As I said it was a clear, crisp, star filled night without a
cloud in sight - several shooting stars appeared now and then.
The air traffic left long contrails, and I observed several
satellites in the hour that I was on the roof, before I
unfortunately had to go out on patrol, by then it was light.

To be honest I am quite perplexed. Have you tried this, and if
so have you had any results. What do you reckon the explanation
could be.

Because they were not satellites........it was not reg
air-traffic, nor were they shooting stars. They were most
definitely, I am sure responding to my flash-light and if so
they must have bloody good eye-sight even though I use a very
powerful maglite and spotlight.

Best wishes, look forward to your response....

(END)


--

================================================================
If you see someone without a smile......give them one of yours :)
****************************************************************
Posted by: Dave Ledger  (mailto:UFOSCOT@cableinet.co.uk)

VISIT "UFO SCOTLAND" AT:
http://wkweb5.cableinet.co.uk/dledger/

JOIN the UFO Scotland mailing list at:
http://UFOscotland.listbot.com">UFO Scotland Mail List.

ICQ No: #4851425
******************************************************************
THE TRUTH IS JUST AROUND THE CORNER!..................BUT HOW FAR?
==================================================================
"The sands of time are trickling away from our dear mother Earth
  and yet we continue to fight amongst ourselves and destroy our
natural enviroment,leaving all the mess for our children and their





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   Aug > Aug 20

                     Re: Socorro: The Zamora 'Insignia'

From: Donald Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 20:51:06 -0300
Fwd Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 21:32:42 -0400
Subject: Re: Socorro: The Zamora 'Insignia'


 >Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 13:44:00 -0400
 >From: Andy Roberts <Brigantia@compuserve.com>
 >Subject: Socorro: The Zamora 'Insignia'
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>

 >>Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 21:53:14 -0300
 >>From: Donald Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
 >>To: updates@globalserve.net
 >>Subject: Re: Socorro: The Zamora 'Insignia'

 >Don Ledger wrote:

 >>What do you mean by identify Andy?. Do you mean when only 50
 >>percent of the facts fit or 60 percent...or are you referring to
 >>100 percent. We are nowhere near 100 percent yet so why blow it
 >>off?

 >I mean what I say, 'identify', ie work towards the state when
 >the nature and origin of the Socorro object is known.
 >Unfortunately in this discussion all I've seen so far is a lot
 >of self opinionated people stating what it can't possibly be
 >because...well, because a lot of reasons I suspect.

 >It may have been a hot air balloon, it may not. But look at it
 >another way.

 >* We know balloons exist

 >* We have some evidence to suggest that they may well have been
 >flown in that area of America at that time

 >* There is some suggestion that a platform-like structure may
 >have been used on balloons at this time

 >* We know that the insignia looked similar to an insignia
 >used on a balloon

 >* Zamora radioed in that the object, 'looks like a balloon.'

 >* He noted the figures 'looked normal in shape' (like human
 >balloon pilots?)

 >* He noted the 'object was smooth, no doors or windows' (like a
 >balloon?)

 >* The object's ease of silent movement and lifting slowly is
 >largely consistent with a balloon.

 >and so on........

 >Now those points, to my sceptical mind, makes me think there is
 >a very real possibility a hot-air balloon may have been
 >involved. True, it doesn't explain some of Zamora's statement -
 >but much of what he said fits a hot air balloon. So why this
 >theory hasn't been taken seriously by many on this list astounds
 >and worries me.

 >>From: GT McCoy <gtmccoy@harborside.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Socorro: The Zamora 'Insignia'
 >>Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 18:32:54 -0700

 >GT Mcoy opined:

 >>I think that Zamora was not a fool and at least
 >>knew what a hot air balloon was.

 >Well, he did say it 'looks like a balloon' GT! But in any case
 >no witness describes their experience perfectly and they are
 >_all_ subject to the vagaries of misperception. Zamora may have
 >been a policeman but I'm afraid the UFO subject is littered with
 >examples of policemen (alone and in groups) misperceiving
 >everything from planes to stars as 'UFOs', chasing said
 >misperceptions for miles and so on. So please don't try to tell
 >me we should take a literal view of the whole sighting!

 >With any UFO case it's perfectly reasonable (before you all
 >start yipping) -nay, essential - to fit any relevant parts of
 >the sighting to phenomena we already know exist. Which in this
 >case is why the balloon theory is perfectly feasible.

 >Oh, alright, I'm a pelicanist and proud!


Ever notice when the argument is weak, they start with the
disparaging remarks. Yipping, Jesus give me a break. So you are
satisfied with 50% of the facts. Balloons can't hold stable in
the wind. They don't move against the wind. Getting a balloon up
and running when its envelope has collasped can't be done in two
minutes. Don't buy into any suggestion that it can be done. And
20 feet in size? How does that square with two people being
lifted off. Its plain impossible. Andy I love a nice neat
explanation but not these, in the same area, same rounded shape,
they're both on the same planet explanations. They are too
loose.

You say Zamora said it looked like a balloon, by comparison
maybe. If he had said it was as big as a house would you have
used that as an explanation. I mean there were probably some of
those around as well, not to mention the shack.

As for pelicans, as far as I know they don't stick their heads
in the sand.

Don






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   Aug > Aug 20

                   Mysterious Light Flummoxes Astronomers

From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@get2net.dk>
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 04:07:45
Fwd Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 21:44:57 -0400
Subject: Mysterious Light Flummoxes Astronomers


Source: AP via the South China Morning Post.

Stig

***

Thursday, August 19, 1999

SPACE

Mysterious light flummoxes astronomers

ASSOCIATED PRESS in Los Angeles

**

A mysterious celestial object detected three years ago is
baffling scientists who have been unable to determine its makeup
or distance from Earth.

It was rare for astronomers to find an unexplainable object, but
even more unusual for it to remain undefined for more than a
week, said George Djorgovski, a California Institute of
Technology astronomer who helped discover the object.

Mr Djorgovski and his team at the institute's Palomar
Observatory detected the object, a pinpoint of light, during a
digital survey of the northern sky.

Usually, astronomers are able to determine an object's
composition and distance by breaking down its light into a
spectrum and analysing it.

But the mystery object's spectrum does not fit any of the known
patterns. Scientists are unsure whether the object is inside our
galaxy or at the edge of the universe.

Repeated photographs revealed no changes in its appearance.

Some astronomers believe the object may be a new class of
quasar, sources of energy found in the centre of galaxies and
believed to be powered by matter falling into massive black
holes.

Mr Djorgovski challenged fellow astronomers to help explain it
at the June meeting of the American Astronomical Society in
Chicago.


*Nasa's plutonium-powered Cassini probe flew within 1,160km of
Earth on Tuesday in a successful bid to gain enough momentum for
the final leg of its seven-year journey to Saturn.


Published in the South China Morning Post. Copyright � 1999. All
rights reserved







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   Aug > Aug 20

                Another Daylight UFO Sighting In Pennsylvania

From: Stan Gordon <paufo@westol.com>
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 00:04:07 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 21:50:15 -0400
Subject: Another Daylight UFO Sighting In Pennsylvania


Another Daylight UFO Sighting Reported In Pennsylvania


A second daylight observation of something unusual in the sky on
Monday afternoon, August 16, 1999, has been reported from Butler
County, north of Pittsburgh. A husband and wife were relaxing in
a swimming pool, when at about 5:45 P.M. the man noticed in the
eastern sky, a circular object that appeared to be of a dull
gray metallic color. The object was high in the sky and was
quite small when first observed. During the next few minutes as
the couple watched, the object moved west towards their
direction over Butler,  but remained at a high altitude. As the
object got closer, it became larger and more detail could be
seen. the couple could see that there were actually two round or
circular objects that appeared to be joined together side by
side, but giving the impression that they were individual
objects. The objects were "like quarters on edge" and they
appeared thin with little depth.

The sun did not appear to reflect off of the devices.  As the
couple continued to watch, the objects suddenly stopped, then
made a sharp 90 degree turn towards the North and moved behind a
tree blocking the view of the observers. They continued to look
waiting for the objects to emerge from behind the tree, but this
never occured. The man exited the pool and ran to another
location to try to spot the objects, but they were never seen
again. No sound was heard during the observation. The witnesses
who have never seen anything like this before, are convinced
that what they saw was not an aircraft or balloons.

At about 2:12 P.M. earlier this date, near Reading, PA in Berks
County, a silver disk shaped object was reportedly seen as it
moved off at a high rate of speed towards the South.






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                 SETI@home Screensaver Project Breaks Record

From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@get2net.dk>
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 04:37:36
Fwd Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 21:46:57 -0400
Subject: SETI@home Screensaver Project Breaks Record


Source:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/low/english/sci/tech/newsid_423000/423022.stm

Stig

***


BBC News Online: Sci/Tech

Tuesday, August 17, 1999 Published at 18:11 GMT 19:11 UK

Alien hunter breaks record

By BBC News Online Science Editor Dr David Whitehouse

**

The SETI@home screensaver project, which allows anyone with a
desktop computer to join the search for intelligent life in
space, is now the largest computation ever done, on Earth at
least.

Since May, over a million people have downloaded the SETI@home
screensaver. But, despite an accumulated 50,000 years of
computer time, no signs of alien life have yet been found.

The SETI@home program has infiltrated homes, offices and
classrooms in 223 countries, "It is truly a phenomenon," said
SETI@home project director David Anderson. "One person runs it
in an office and pretty soon the whole office is doing it."

Companies large and small (including the BBC) as well as schools
and universities have formed groups to compete to see whose
computers can analyse the most chunks of data.

The program acts like a screen saver, starting when the computer
is idle and analysing data collected from the Arecibo radio
telescope in Puerto Rico.

The analysis is done automatically and the results are sent back
to the University of California at Berkeley, while participants
can see the progress on the computer screen.


Number cruncher


According to Professor Anderson it proves the value of
distributed computing and it has encouraged him to look around
for other projects that could benefit from this technique.

"SETI@home is now the largest computation ever done on this
planet, we have accumulated more than 50,000 years of computing
time so far," said project scientist Dan Werthimer, a research
physicist at the University of California Berkeley's Space
Sciences Laboratory.

"This also is the most sensitive sky survey ever conducted,"
Professor Werthimer added. SETI@home is so powerful because we
are using the world's largest telescope and we are able to use
it continuously, 24 hours a day, by piggybacking on other
observations."

Of the million people who have downloaded the software about
600,000 have completed at least one unit of data analysis.

Analysts say that the backlog of data from the Arecibo telescope
is rapidly disappearing, and Professor Anderson and his team are
currently updating the software to analyse the data again to
search for more complex signals.


Relevant Stories:

Is anybody out there?  (17 Aug 99 | Sci/Tech)
A signal from ET?  (31 Mar 99 | Sci/Tech)
Largest alien-hunting telescope planned  (09 Feb 99 | Sci/Tech)
Search for life on Mars with your computer  (15 Jun 98 | Sci/Tech)


Internet Links:

Seti@home
Seti
The Planetary Society Seti page
Arecibo Observatory


The BBC is not responsible for the content of external internet sites.

�







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   Aug > Aug 20

                           UFOcity.com Report 8/99

From: Peter Robbins <ufolist@mail.teamcpm.com>
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 17:13:45 -0600
Fwd Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 22:09:17 -0400
Subject: UFOcity.com Report 8/99


UFOcity.com Report
By Peter Robbins
UFOcity.com Editor-In-Chief
August 1999


Editor's note: This issue of the UFOcity.com Report has been
sent to our regular subscribers, as well as a number of
individuals who have not requested it, but whom we felt might
find it of interest.

The format of the UFOcity.com Report is editorial content first,
followed by information on some of our products.  Please note
that we consider such "sales pitches" as opportunities to post
reviews of current and classic UFO literature, both video and
print.  We want to make it easy for you to become more aware of
the available resources concerning the topics we discuss in our
website, and we will do our best to get them to you quickly,
should you choose to order from us.

We hope that you will want to be kept up to date on this
compelling and often misunderstood subject, but also understand
that this may not be the case.  If you do not wish to receive
any more issues of this free report, simply email us at
<ufolist@teamcpm.com> and include the word "unsubscribe" in the
subject.  We appreciate that your time is valuable and thank-you
in advance for your consideration in this matter.

Sincerely,
Peter Robbins
for the UFOcity.com Report


UFOcity.com Receives Its First Award

UFOcity.com would like to thank "World of the Strange" website
<http://www.jb-graphics.com/thestrange> and editor Louise Lowry
for our site's first award for excellence.  We are fans of the
WOTS site and subscribe to their weekly e'zine as well.  Thanks
Louise, your goodwill and your acknowledgment are very much
appreciated!

"World of the Strange would like to honor UFOCITY.COM, with our
Award Of Excellence for September, for all their breaking news
and storylines they carry...if you haven't been to this site it
is a must for all you researchers  and just plain folks
interested in anything along the paranormal line...topics
include The Unexplained, Weird Sciences, Nick Pope Articles,
Weird Worlds, Crop Circles, Fortean Articles and a host of other
materials...please stop by and bookmark this site for updates.
Below is a small article telling you about UFOcity.com and it's
Editor Peter Robbins and their host of people that contribute to
the on-going search...WOTS is proud to be a small part of their
working force..I was shocked to find out that WOTS was the first
that came forward to offer such an Award for their hard work!"


NSA in Hot Water With European Parliament

"The National Security Agency is the most secretive, official
organization ever created by the United States government.  The
NSA is accountable to none of us.  Its stated purpose and
mission were deeply classified at the agency's birth and have
never been released to the public.  The contents of its charter
are similarly unavailable.  So is the NSA's annual budget, and
budget disbursement.  We are not allowed to know anything about
its worldwide operations (or) high-tech breakthroughs... Shortly
after its inception, the organization began to establish a
presence in Great Britain."

Peter Robbins, 1996, Left at East Gate*

  America's super-secret National Security Agency may be in for
  the fight of its institutional life.  Its adversary: The
  European Parliament.  So reports the Los Angeles Times  in an
  August 4 article** by Simon Davies.

Ten years after the fall of the Soviet Union, the NSA continues
to eavesdrop on the world's communications -- without the
world's approval. Their activities include the monitoring of
telephone systems in almost every country - friend and foe alike
- without any  democratic oversight or legal basis.

During the past twelve months however, representatives of the
European Parliament (EP) have learned, with more than a little
shock and dismay, that the Agency has created, in cooperation
with the British government, a method by which it is able to
intercept almost every fax, e-mail and telephone call sent or
received in greater Europe.  Confirmation of this news has
angered governments throughout Europe and is currently the
subject of an Italian judicial inquiry.

The fact that the National Security Agency has been intercepting
European communications for decades is not considered news in
Europe, but it has never been officially acknowledged by any of
the affected governments.  We know for a fact that members of
Great Britain's Parliament have been trying for years to get the
NSA to fess up to their incessant spying, but all such efforts
have been rebuffed or ignored.

It now appears though that this explosive issue is finally
getting the attention it deserves.  Two studies commissioned by
the European Parliament have confirmed the existence of
NSA-controlled and operated communications intelligence
facilities in Britain.  The first report notes that  "...the NSA
had established a surveillance capacity over the entire European
communications network."  It also goes on to describe "...a grid
of supercomputers, known as Echelon, capable of scanning vast
areas of the communications spectrum to detect keywords."

  To complicate matters, the EP has also learned that the NSA has
  been expanding its efforts at commercial espionage for the
  benefit of American economic interests.

It was last September that parliamentarians first demanded more
openness and accountability on the part of the US spy agency.
The EP's second report, "Interception Capabilities 2000," goes
on to make public the particulars of  a classified plan to
create a "...seamless web of telecommunications surveillance
across all national boundaries."  The plan calls for the merging
of two, huge information gathering systems -- one for national
security and the other for law enforcement -- which would result
in a single operation with the capacity to negate national
control of all surveillance activities.  The plan has even been
approved by the FBI.

In Washington, the House Permanent Select Committee on
Intelligence has ordered the NSA to surrender Echelon-related
documents.  The agency has responded by claiming attorney-client
privilege -- a first in the annals of the House Select
Committee.

Although I have my doubts, this response may signal the end of
the agency's privileged position in the intelligence community.
An amendment has been attached to the fiscal 2000 Intelligence
Authorization Act by Representative Bob Barr, a Georgia
Republican who is justifiably concerned with a  potential breach
of constitutional privacy rights.  Barr's amendment would
require the CIA, the NSA and Attorney General Janet Reno to
submit reports describing what legal steps and methods are being
taken within Project Echelon to safeguard the privacy rights of
American citizens.

Meanwhile, the official Italian inquiry, headed up by Deputy
District Attorney Vittorio De Cesare, is looking into NSA
violations of Italian law. The country's head privacy
commissioner, Stefano Rodota, is quoted in the Italian press as
saying that "The U.S. government [has] not replied to the
requests for clarifications made explicitly by the European
Parliament." Other European privacy officials are following in
his footsteps and also beginning to investigate the NSA's
Echelon program.  If left unchecked, America's top intelligence
agency will soon have "a seamless, borderless, surveillance web
that touches all facets of our communication," and one which is
subject to no congressional oversight mechanisms whatsoever.
UFOcity.com will post updates on this extremely important news
story as they are received.

  *Left at East Gate: A First-Hand Account of the
  Bentwaters-Woodbridge UFO Incident, Its Cover-up and
  Investigation, by Larry Warren & Peter Robbins, Marlowe &
  Co./Thunders Mouth Press, 1997

** Source: Los Angeles Times, August 4, 1999: "Europe Blows
Whistle on That Great Eavesdropper, the NSA -- The top secret
agency is spying for the U.S. in ways that other nations find
increasingly alarming and intrusive." Copyright 1999.  All
Rights Reserved - - - Simon Davies Is a Visiting Fellow in the
Computer Security Research Centre in the London School of
Economics and Director of the Human Rights Group, Privacy
International


A Washington First: X-PPAC

And its about time!  On July 21, the formation of the first
Political Action Committee to Target the Politics of UFO's - The
Extraterrestrial Phenomena Political Action Committee, or
X-PPAC, was announced by its executive director, Stephen
Bassett, on Art Bell's Coast to Coast, the largest late night
talk show in America.  The paperwork for X-PPAC was filed with
the Federal Election Commission (FEC) on February 13, 1999.  The
independent committee will be Washington, DC based.

X-PPAC's primary mission is to address and put an end to this
government's continued stonewalling of facts which confirm the
presence of extraterrestrial life forms on Earth, and to forge a
partnership between the government and the people dedicated to
creating a policy which will directly address this fact.

X-PPAC will also work to reform the secret-keeping bureaucracy
in this country, which has grown steadily since first instituted
in 1947. Additionally, the political Action Committee will
dedicate some of its efforts to declassifying advanced
technology which has could be of help in reversing the
destruction of the environment, but which is now cloaked in
National Security Act edicts.

Executive Director Bassett notes that X-PPAC will be involved in
such pending political activities as the UFO State Ballot
Initiative, national Open Congressional Hearing Petition, direct
lobbying, newspaper and television ads, direct contributions to
candidates, grass roots education, and more.  The Committee will
also network with established environmental and secrecy reform
groups on matters they share in common.

As a group dedicated to open government and secrecy reform,
X-PPAC will exceed minimum disclosure requirements.  All
financial transactions will be posted to the X-PPAC website
within 48 hours.

In dedicating himself to this project, Steve Bassett has taken
on a major commitment - and one we may all be the beneficiaries
of.  We at UFOcity.com commend him for this historic undertaking
and have already let him know that we stand ready to assist in
any manner we are able.  If you want to help, or know more about
X-PPAC, contact Stephen Bassett.  Phone: 301-564-1820; Email:
ExPPAC@aol.com


Spectacular French Military Report on UFO's Released (With
thanks to Filer's Files #29-1999, Bob Durant and Perry Petrakis)

A committee from the Association of Former Junior Officials from
the French Institute for Higher Defense Studies [IHEDN] has
released a report claiming UFOs are real and funds should be
appropriated for further research.  Two years of private
hearings were held with   military personnel.  The title is
"UFOs and  Defense" --"What can we do to prepare?"  The title
infers the UFOs present a security problem to the nation.  It
contains a preface by French Air Force General Bernard Norlain,
the former director.  The report does not have official status,
but is signed by the association of former executives of IHEDN.
It may be unofficial to keep the US and UK governments from
protesting.  The report is 90 pages long and has been sent to
the highest political leaders.  Researcher Bob Durant says, "I
think these names and titles alone say it all."  Chapters:  1.
Testimony of French pilots, 2. Worldwide UFO sightings by
pilots,  3. Sightings from ground observers,  4. Close
encounters in France,  5. Examples of explained cases,  6.
Organization of UFO research in France,  7. Methods and results
of GEPAN and SEPRA,  8. Hypotheses for UFOs, tests and modeling,
9. Organization of international research,  10. Strategic
prospects,  11. Aeronautical implications,  12. Scientific and
technical implications,  13. Political and religious
implications,  14. Public relations implications. Appendices:
1. Radar detection in France,  2. Observations by astronomers,
3. Life in the universe,  4. The colonization of space,  5. The
Roswell Incident - disinformation,  6. History of the UFO
phenomenon,  7. Remarks about various psychological,
sociological and political aspects of the UFO phenomenon.  The
report was published in a magazine called VDS on July 17. The
document recommends an intensification of UFO investigations by
SEPRA, France's official UFO investigative organization headed
by scientist Jean-Jacques Velesco.  To some the report is
disappointing because it fails to mention 1989 Belgian
sightings.  However, sections covered military sightings at
Lakenheath (UK), Teheran and the US.  It also backs Lt. Co.
Phillip Corso's statements.


Ex-NASA UFO Whistleblower's Background Checks Out

Early in July, UFOcity.com posted an article which had been
forwarded to us by CNI News (See: "NASA Veteran Releases
Bombshell Claims On UFO's," posted July 8).  The piece concerned
one Clark McClelland and his claims of a long-time UFO cover-up
at NASA.  McClelland alleged that he had been employed at NASA
for more than three decades, during which time space agency
officials and employees were privy to a number of UFO incidents.
Mr. McClelland even stated that he was told by the father of the
American rocketry program, Warner Von Brun, that a spacecraft
from points unknown had crashed near Roswell NM in 1947.

CNI News and UFOcity.com were both clear in stating that Clark
McClelland's claims were as yet unfounded, but felt the story
should be run.  In the interim, we made a number of calls and
inquiries which took us no closer to the truth.  We are pleased
to report however that after some serious professional digging,
CNI has been able to confirm that McClelland's NASA background
does check out.

This is not to say that his UFO-related accounts are all
guaranteed authentic (although they may well be), but that he is
a credible witness. We will keep you posted as more information
becomes available.


2 Excellent UFO Photos Examined

In early August, two extremely provocative UFO photographs were
sent to radio host Jeff Rense of "Jeff Rense/Sightings on the
Air" radio show (see this week's "Radio & TV Report" on
UFOcity.com for show information).  The photographer, Mr. Edward
F. Slayton of Florida, verified his identity for Mr. Rense and
appears to be an upstanding and credible individual who happened
to be at the right place at the right time with a camera.  Take
a few minutes to examine these pictures for yourself at
<http://www.jeffrense.com/ufo4/slayton.htm>; they are most
compelling..

Source: Jeff Rense/Sightings on the Air http://sightings.com/

Special Thanks to Jeff Rense and to Edward F. Slayton
http://theillusion.com/ufo


Breaking News..

If you haven't visited UFOcity.com in the past month, here are
some of the news stories you missed -- Huge UFO Reported Over
Brazil and Nearby Countries; Scientists Warn Of Risk From
'Doomsday' Asteroids; UFO Cult Disappears in Colombia; Giant
Crop Circle at Alton Barnes, England; NASA Selects Missions To
Mercury And A Comet's Interior As Next Discovery Flights;
Citizens Against UFO Secrecy vs. the Department of Defense;
Preparing for a Grave New World (Defense Secretary Cohen); A
Commercial Return to the Moon; Georgia (UFO) Sect Alarms
Neighbors; Shuttle's Fuel Leak Danger Revealed; and, Y2K - State
Department Says Failures 'Inevitable'; Exploring Century's
Greatest Explosion, and The French Report on UFOs and Defense:
All these articles and more are available in our archives.
Don't miss out on the breaking news this month!


UFO-Related CD-ROM's Now Available at Reduced Price!

UFOcity.com Report is excited to announce that the CD-ROM
versions of BEYOND ROSWELL, LEFT AT EAST GATE and PSYCHIC
DISCOVERIES are now on sale! Instead of paying the list price of
$29.95 each, all three titles can now be had for the price of
two - $59.90!  These extraordinary CD-ROM's are packed with
information, documents and video clips and are all designed to
play on both PC's and Macs.  All contain the full text of the
books they are based on (with PSYCHIC DISCOVERIES containing 2
complete books).  For ordering information, click on
<http://www.ufocity.com/shop/cdroms.html>. Particulars on all
three follow:

Beyond Roswell The crash at Roswell is the best-known UFO
incident in the world. Beyond Roswell examines all of the facts
from that day in July 1947 and brings forth the proof that
aliens had crash landed on this earth. Many of the people
involved in the cover-up of the crash came forward, at great
personal risk, to speak about what they witnessed. Features
digital footage of the alleged alien autopsy film, a fully
searchable text, hundreds of indexed pages of supporting photos,
documentation, video clips, a screensaver and much more.

Left At East Gate: A First-Hand Account of the
Bentwaters-Woodbridge UFO incident, Its Cover-up and
Investigation. With more evidence than was ever found at
Roswell, the events chronicled in this book constitute the
best-documented UFO incident in the history of Great Britain,
and in the annals of the United States Air Force. Contains the
complete text of the five hundred page British best-seller,
search engine, supporting documents, military records, letters,
maps, color photographs, UFO information databases, screensaver
and almost fifty minutes of location video and interview
footage.


Psychic Discoveries
Includes the complete text of the two definitive books on
psychic breakthroughs in the Soviet Union: the international
best-seller, Psychic Discoveries Behind the Iron Curtain, and
The Iron Curtain Lifted. These books reveal the
"inner-space-race" that raged during the Cold War and was won by
the Soviets. Here are the startling revelations of how Soviet
scientists succeeded in harnessing psychic weapons.  Also
contains search capacities, photographs, screensaver, selected
articles from the ESP Papers: Soviet Scientists Speak Out. and
rare video footage of psychokinesis (mind over manner)


Hard to Find Videos Now Available on UFOcity.com

We are delighted to announce that almost 90 new titles have been
added to our video store.  They include some of the very best
UFO-related ever assembled, and include tapes on Area 51,
abductions, implants, ancient visitations, Roswell, and the best
collection of UFO film and video footage available anywhere.
Our online store also carries dozens of tapes on paranormal
subjects, including crop circles, ancient Egypt, the Dead Sea
Scrolls, Mars, The Tunguska explosion, Nikola Tesla, cults,
conspiracies, ancient knowledge, healing, etc.  All have
excellent production values, are competitively priced, and easy
to order online.  You can review all of our new titles by
clicking on ufocity.com/ufocity.cfm


And our video pick of the month is: The Secret of Nikola Tesla
Unlike any Tesla documentary or lecture tape you may have seen
previously, this item is completely unique.  The Secret of
Nikola Tesla is nothing less than a feature-length film
biography of one of the most brilliant and enigmatic figures of
all time, with the legendary Orson Wells playing the role of
financier J.P. Morgan!

More than even Thomas Edison, Nikola Tesla was truly the father
of our modern technological age.  He was, among other things,
the inventor of the AC (alternate current) induction motor,
which made the universal transmission and distribution of
electricity possible.  His achievements led to the development
of radio, television, remote control, radar and the
hydroelectric dam.  Tesla's discoveries are also the basis for
the emerging science of free energy.

As both a film fanatic and a long-time student of Tesla's work,
I was not even aware that this movie existed until our
distributor told me about it. It has been almost impossible to
find until now, so treat yourself to a copy or surprise a friend
with one.  A unique addition to any video library and available
from UFOcity.com's online video store.


Summer reading from Arcturus Online

For many of us on busy schedules, summer is one of the few times
of the year when we can get in some reading for pleasure, and
Arcturus Books, "the Amazon.com of UFO books," continues to
offer the best selection of UFO and paranormal titles we know
of.  I know I have harped on this point in the past, but we
Americans are reading less and less, which, I must say, I find
somewhat scary.  No amount of TV, films or Internet surfing can
take the place of books, especially in an area as complex as UFO
studies.  Anyone seriously interested in this fascinating
subject should be building their libraries, as well as their
video collections, and Arcturus is just the place to do it.  The
following selections are from their July catalogue and are
easily ordered online by clicking on
<http://www.ufocity.com/arcturus/index.html>.  You can find the
August catalogue on this webpage as well.

2. Appleby, Nigel. HALL OF THE GODS. Heinemann, 1998. HC, 1st
ed., 420pp. This book, which deals with the search for a "Hall
of Records" in the Giza complex, was no sooner published last
June, when it was abruptly withdrawn from the market by its
publisher (alleged copyright infringements), and all unsold
copies destroyed. All, that is, except one lot which had been
set aside for author signings--apparently nobody was paying
attention to that stash. I got lucky one day recently, cornered
a good part of the lot and bought as many as I dared. These are
likely the last freely available copies in the U.S., and
possibly in the world!  It's a great read, and already about
half the copies are gone. Plain copies, $39.95, and 8 signed
copies remaining, at $49.95. They'll be selling this for
hundreds in 20 years!

13. Buckley, Christopher. LITTLE GREEN MEN. RH, 1999. HC, 301pp.
Oh dear, another skewering of the UFO/conspiratorial mentality.
In this send-up, John Oliver Banion, a George Wills-like talk
show host, is abducted by aliens and thrown totally out of sync
with respect to his cushy former existence. He comes to believe
that ETs have chosen him to "champion the most important cause
in the millennium" and this sets up within him a personal
crisis: to fake continuing his establishment celebrity or become
the leader of his "impassioned and somewhat scruffy new friends"
who want to expose government UFO secrecy. Satire
abounds.....but of course the next thing we will read in the UFO
press is that the government has found a New way to time-release
its secrets to us.....as comedy. $24.95

24. Fort, Charles. THE BOOK OF THE DAMNED. Prometheus, 1999.
Qual. soft, 310pp. Reprint of 1919 ed. One of the best things
that could happen to the Fortean reader is this nice softcover
format of Fort's great classic--upgrade your crummy paperback
while you're waiting for that first edition! $19.95. (THE
COMPLETE BOOKS OF CHARLES FORT is also available at $29.95)

27. Hall, Michael D. UFOS: A CENTURY OF SIGHTINGS. 1999, 8 _ x
11,  416pp, photos, index. A history, but different from other
UFO histories, in that it is wave-oriented as opposed to
case-oriented. Coverage of the waves of 1947, 1952, 1954, 1957,
1965-6 and 1973 are emphasized, and there is coverage of
continuing developments right to our own times. It is clear that
Hall prefers writing about the earlier UFO Age, for the book is
top-heavy with that coverage to the point where the reader might
feel short-changed with the coverage given to post-1960 events.
On the other hand, the more recent material is subject to much
social and ufological contamination--so if Hall's forte is the
purer and more innocent era of ufology, then let us rejoice in
the amount of space he gives to it. Excellent book, $39.95

79. Blevins, David. INTERNATIONAL UFO DIRECTORY, 5TH EDITION.
Phaedra Enterprises, 1998. 48pp, spiral bound, with over 550
worldwide groups & publications! $20.00

83. Haines, Dr. Richard F. CE-5: THE CHRONICLE OF
HUMAN-INITIATED CONTACT. 1998, large softbound, 435pp. Text
illustrations, bibliography, index, 20 tables. 242 cases of UFO
encounters which involve some kind of alien-human contact
(responses to overtly friendly human behavior, responses to
human thought, responses to overtly hostile human behavior) are
described here, and are given a "probability" rating. Excellent
science, $24.95

84. Hall, Michael D., and Wendy A. Conners. ALFRED LOEDDING AND
THE GREAT FLYING SAUCER WAVE OF 1947. 1998, lg format softbound,
192pp. This work surveys the many hundreds of 1947 UFO cases
(including many never before published), and introduces the UFO
world to Dr. Alfred Loedding, whose role in designing the secret
Project Sign and whose work with that project must rank him with
one of those few scientists who play an important part in
shaping our government's original UFO policies. A cornerstone in
a good UFO library, $21.95

85. Hesemann, Michael. UFOS: THE SECRET HISTORY. 1998, qual.
soft, 536pp, chronology, index. A book jam-packed with
everything that any ufologist could want: history (including the
ancient history of UFOs), classic cases, contactee
retrospectives, lots of '50s nostalgia, hundreds of
illustrations (over 80 in color). An extra bonus is a generous
serving of recent European developments and cases--something
often lacking in U.S. ufology. $18.95.

91. Leir, Dr. Roger K. THE ALIENS AND THE SCALPEL: SCIENTIFIC
PROOF OF ET IMPLANTS IN HUMANS. 1998, qual. soft, 240pp. 37
pages of biological and metallurgical analysis reports. Well, on
the NBC documentary, all they got were a shard of glass and a
piece of rust. It's a big stretch from those to "alien
monitoring devices," but perhaps you should have the information
from the recognized (and qualified) authority on the matter in
hand before you write off implanted alien devices as just
another ufological dead end. $18.95; SIGNED HARDCOVERS, $24.95

A good library is one of the most important posessions you will
ever have. Get in the habit of adding books to it each and every
month!


If you have a friend who you think might enjoy receiving the
UFOcity.com Report, please tell them about it or forward them a
copy.  To subscribe, email us at <ufolist@teamcpm.com> and
include the word "subscribe" in the subject.  To unsubscribe,
email us at the same address and include the word "unsubscribe"
in the subject.









   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Aug > Aug 20

                            Re: Y2K And Your VCR

From: Gavin A. J. McLeod <gavin_mcleod@bc.sympatico.ca>
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 21:39:07 -0700
Fwd Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 22:22:19 -0400
Subject: Re: Y2K And Your VCR


 >Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 21:44:36 -0300
 >From: Donald Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
 >To: updates@globalserve.net
 >Subject: Y2K And Your VCR

 >Sorry, Errol but I thought this worth repeating.

 >Don

 >------

 >Tip for the day:

 >If your VCR has a year setting on it, which most do, you will
 >not be able to use the programmed recording feature after
 >12/31/99.

 >Don't throw it away.

 >Instead set it for the year 1972 as the days are the same as the
 >year 2000.

 >The manufacturers won't tell you. They want you to buy a new Y2K
 >VCR. Pass this along to all your friends.

 >Michelle Norman


It is relatively easy to test a VCR for Y2K problems.
Set the date and time for December 31, 1999 at 11:55 P.M.
Set the VCR to begin recording at January 1, 2000 at 00:05 A.M.
turn off VCR. Wait 10 minutes. Observe results if any.

Gavin McLeod





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Aug > Aug 20

                     Re: Socorro: The Zamora 'Insignia'

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 00:50:28 EDT
Fwd Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 22:24:42 -0400
Subject: Re: Socorro: The Zamora 'Insignia'


 >From: GT McCoy <gtmccoy@harborside.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
 >Subject: Re: Socorro: The Zamora 'Insignia'
 >Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 18:32:54 -0700

 >>Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 13:40:52 -0400
 >>From: Andy Roberts <Brigantia@compuserve.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Socorro: The Zamora 'Insignia'
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>

 >Hello all, I was praying that the subject of Pelicans would go
 >away. It did.

 >>>From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
 >>>Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 08:55:05 EDT
 >>>Subject: Re: Socorro: The Zamora 'Insignia'
 >>>To: updates@globalserve.net

 >Let me start by saying: New Mexico in April is a lousy time to
 >fly Balloons. Wind and dust are not condusive to Good Balloon
 >travel.

 >>>I'll go you one better than that. In the Project Blue Book file
 >>>there is a letter suggesting that two men from Dubuque, Iowa,
 >>>traveling in New Mexico at the time saw the same craft. The
 >>>letter writer didn't have any names but said the article
 >>>appeared on the front page of the Dubuque newspaper. Apparently
 >>>no one ever followed up on this.
 >>>Took me almost twenty minutes to find the article. Paul Kies and
 >>>Larry Kratzer claimed they saw the same object as Zamora. They
 >>>didn't add much in the way of additional descriptions, but did
 >>>provide some corroboration of the Zamora sighting.

 >>But if Zamora *did* see and misperceive a balloon,
 >>and if these two witnesses saw the same object, a balloon
 >>is what they also saw.

 >>The fact that they were anonymous and the report wasn't checked
 >>needs no comment at all.

 >>Why attempts to explain Zamora's sighting reasonably and
 >>in terms of known objects causes so much problems with some
 >>people is a mystery in itself. Don't you *want* to identify
 >>what he saw?

 >Let's start with what he didn't see, 1: A helicopter of the era
 >too noisy. 2: Swamp Gas Socorro? 3: A Balloon of the Hot Air
 >type (oh, I'm not going  any farther with that) .

 >What ever Zamora saw (I'm almost convinced it might have been a
 >little somthing that had wandered "off range" at white sands -
 >but not quite). I think that Zamora was not a fool and at least
 >knew what a hot air balloon was. International paper should
 >have a record of the balloon's exploits - somebody should have.
 >April in the Southwest is windy - very windy. I don't think it
 >would be a good time to hold the Socorro Balloon Festival.

 >-GT McCoy


Good thinking GT.  However I have a solution to this dilemma.
Remember that time "BP?"  (Before Pelicans), when some guy
or maybe one a' them womens said that Hispanics never get
abducted?  Well, was not Lonnie a Hispanic?

Cogito, ergo ...

Another case solved by J. Jaime Gesundt, and not a whisper
of swamp gas.

J. Jaime Gesundt, Ph.D., MBA, M.O.U.S.E, Coming loud.





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   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Aug > Aug 20

                     Re: Socorro: The Zamora 'Insignia'

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 03:45:17 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 22:33:24 -0400
Subject: Re: Socorro: The Zamora 'Insignia'


Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 13:44:00 -0400
 >From: Andy Roberts <Brigantia@compuserve.com>
 >Subject: Socorro: The Zamora 'Insignia'
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>


 >>Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 21:53:14 -0300
 >>From: Donald Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
 >>To: updates@globalserve.net
 >>Subject: Re: Socorro: The Zamora 'Insignia'

 >Don Ledger wrote:

 >>What do you mean by identify Andy?. Do you mean when only 50
 >>percent of the facts fit or 60 percent...or are you referring to
 >>100 percent. We are nowhere near 100 percent yet so why blow it
 >>off?

 >I mean what I say, 'identify', ie work towards the state when
 >the nature and origin of the Socorro object is known.
 >Unfortunately in this discussion all I've seen so far is a lot
 >of self opinionated people stating what it can't possibly be
 >because...well, because a lot of reasons I suspect.

 >It may have been a hot air balloon, it may not. But look at it
 >another way.>

 >* We know balloons exist

Yes. And conventional objects used in explanation must have
characteristic that mach the reported characteristics.


 >* We have some evidence to suggest that they may well have been
 >flown in that area of America at that time

Still yet to be proved, I guess. And even if true, have yet to
prove there was on in the vicinity of the sighting. So the
balloon explanation has one blow against it: no known balloon in
area

 >* There is some suggestion that a platform-like structure may
 >have been used on balloons at this time

Again, this is a guess.  And we have know knowledge that there
was a balloon with platform-like structure in the area at the
time/ (Note: the Socoro sighting was a big press story, in many
or most newspapers.  Jolly good entertainment, you know. Hard to
imagine potential baloonists in the area would not have seen the
story. Yet no one called to confirm being in the area at the
time/._)  The balloon explanation has another blow against it.


 >* We know that the insignia looked similar to an insignia
 >used on a balloon

We do? perhaps Zamorra's original description was correct and
not the later version.  And besides this statment means little
as written "the insignia looked similar to an insigna used on a
balloon."  On what balloon?

 >* Zamora radioed in that the object, 'looks like a balloon.'

Yup,. that dummy. He correctly identified it (says Andy) and
then canged his mind.  Why? Did h notice something' about it
that contradicted the shape description> AND, by the way, he
said BALLOON, not "balloon with gondola".  A balloon (less
gondola) is round. HE may have had in mind a large "toy" balloon
or a weather balloon (less radiosonde or radar reflector),etc.
Blow against the balloon hypothesis.

 >* He noted the figures 'looked normal in shape' (like human
 >balloon pilots?)


 >* He noted the 'object was smooth, no doors or windows' (like a
 >balloon?)

Strange he noted that there were no fine details such as windows
or doors, but he failed to notice a rather large "basket"
underneath which supported the two humans Blow against th
balloon explanation.

 >* The object's ease of silent movement and lifting slowly is
 >largely consistent with a balloon.

Yes, but object got out of sight quickly (next person to arrive
on scene didn't see it).  Must have been a BIG wind. Blow
against the balloon hypothesis

 >and so on........

Indeed!

 >Now those points, to my sceptical mind, makes me think there is
 >a very real possibility a hot-air balloon may have been
 >involved. True, it doesn't explain some of Zamora's statement -
 >but much of what he said fits a hot air balloon. So why this
 >and worries me.

Larry Robinson seems to say it WAS a hot air balloon. DO you
think, based on the above arguments, that it WAS such a balloon.

 >>From: GT McCoy <gtmccoy@harborside.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Socorro: The Zamora 'Insignia'
 >>Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 18:32:54 -0700

 >GT Mcoy opined:

 >>I think that Zamora was not a fool and at least
 >>knew what a hot air balloon was.

 >Well, he did say it 'looks like a balloon' GT! But in any case
 >no witness describes their experience perfectly and they are
 >_all_ subject to the vagaries of misperception. Zamora may have
 >been a policeman but I'm afraid the UFO subject is littered with
 >examples of policemen (alone and in groups) misperceiving
 >everything from planes to stars as 'UFOs', chasing said
 >misperceptions for miles and so on. So please don't try to tell
 >me we should take a literal view of the whole sighting!>

 >With any UFO case it's perfectly reasonable (before you all
 >start yipping) -nay, essential - to fit any relevant parts of
 >the sighting to phenomena we already know exist. Which in this
 >case is why the balloon theory is perfectly feasible.>

 >Oh, alright, I'm a pelicanist and proud!

More like an albatrossist.





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Aug > Aug 20

                      Re: 'New?' FBI memo about Roswell

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 03:45:06 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 22:36:24 -0400
Subject: Re: 'New?' FBI memo about Roswell


 >From: Henny van der Pluijm <hvdp@worldonline.nl>
 >Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 04:35:02 +0200 (MET DST)
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
 >Subject: 'New?' FBI memo about Roswell


 >Found this at http://www.space.com/area51/websightings_812.html


 >For old-school UFOlogists, the Paranormal News published an FBI
 >memo concerning the 1947 Roswell object and 12 pages of Project
 >Blue Book documents. Although the Blue Book documents were
 >introductory in nature, the Roswell memo described the object
 >recovered as "a flying disc hexagonal in shape the object
 >found resembles a high-altitude weather balloon with a radar
 >reflector, but that telephone conversation between their office
 >and Wright Field had not borne out this belief." >

 >Is this new?

Hardly. I got the FBI documents under FOIPA in May 1977, so I
was the first person outside the FBI to see that document. Of
course, it made no impression at the time since the Roswell
investigation had not been done.  It was first published in the
1981 book "The Roswell Incident"... It is in the package of FBI
documents on the FBI web cite (look under FOIPA)






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                    Ohio shimmering lights not UFO - A.P.

From: Kenny Young <ufo@fuse.net>
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 07:07:17 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 22:39:04 -0400
Subject: Ohio shimmering lights not UFO - A.P.


Shimmering lights a memorial, not UFO
The Associated Press

Source: The Cincinnati Enquirer
Thursday, August 19, 1999
Page B9

Canton, Ohio - Lights in the sky that perplexed two women turned
out to be the result of a man's final wish.

Peggy Bryant and Lisa Pileggi, neighbors in Perry Township, said
they saw the shimmering lights between 11 a.m. and noon Monday.
They told The Repository that most of the lights looked like two
spheres stacked on top of each other "like a snowman."

It turns out that the ashes of Charles D."Chic" Porazzo, 63, had
been sent aloft by about that time in 50 yellow balloons. His
memorial service was held at St. Joan of Arc Catholic Church,
which is near where the women were walking when they noticed the
lights.

Mr. Porrazzo's sister-in-law, Midge Porrazzo, said the
description of the lights matched the balloons appearance.

End of article
--
UFO Research
http://home.fuse.net/ufo/






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                      Re: 'New?' FBI memo about Roswell

From: Steven W. Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 07:47:07 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 22:41:52 -0400
Subject: Re: 'New?' FBI memo about Roswell


 >From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
 >To: "UFO UpDates - Toronto" <updates@globalserve.net>
 >Subject: Re: 'New?' FBI memo about Roswell
 >Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 16:49:03 -0300

 >>From: Henny van der Pluijm <hvdp@worldonline.nl>
 >>Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 04:35:02 +0200 (MET DST)
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
 >>Subject: 'New?' FBI memo about Roswell

 >>Found this at >http://www.space.com/area51/websightings_812.html

 >>For old-school ufologists, the Paranormal News published
 >>an FBI memo concerning the 1947 Roswell object and 12 pages
 >>of Project Blue Book documents. Although the Blue Book
 >>documents were introductory in nature, the Roswell memo
 >>described the object recovered as "a flying disc -
 >>hexagonal in shape - the object found resembles a
 >>high-altitude weather balloon with a radar reflector, but
 >>that telephone conversation between their office
 >>and Wright Field had not borne out this belief."

 >>Is this new?

 >This document is definitely _not_ new.

 >It was originally received by Dr. Bruce Maccabee in the late
 >1970s, with about 1600 other FBI UFO pages, in response to his
 >FOIA request.

 >It is included in the 1980 book "The Roswell Incident" by
 >Charles Berlitz and William  L. Moore and included in Bill's
 >(1985) 50 page MUFON Symposium Paper 'Crashed Saucers --Evidence
 >in Search of Proof' ($8.00 including P. and H from UFORI, POB
 >958, Houlton, ME 04730-0958).

 >It is also selectively quoted from in a totally deceptive
 >fashion, as might be expected, by Colonel Richard Weaver in 'The
 >Roswell Report Fact vs. Fiction in the New Mexico Desert'.

 >He had the chutzpah to leave out the clause starting "but
 >telephonic (sic) conversation...."

 >I noted this and many other deceptive comments by Weaver in my
 >1994, 27 page paper "Roswell Incident, USAF, and NY Times" ($4.
 >from UFORI.) and also in my 1996  book TOP SECRET/MAJIC
 >(autographed, hard cover only $15 from UFORI) page 114.

 >Yes, there really was a lot done before the internet became so
 >popular..

 >Stanton Friedman

Stanton is absolutely correct.  I would add that the quoted text
of the document that was posted is not as it actually appears,
which gives a different impression than the actual memo.  The
memo can also be seen on the FBI's web site in their FOIA
section, and is included on the Fund for UFO Research's FOIA
Archive I CD-ROM (featuring FBI and NSA FOIA documents).





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                      UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 4, Number 17

From: Joseph Trainor <Masinaigan@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 21:16:59 EDT
Fwd Date: Sat, 21 Aug 1999 09:19:10 -0400
Subject: UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 4, Number 17


     UFO ROUNDUP
Volume 4, Number 17
August 16, 1999
Editor: Joseph Trainor

DAY CARE GUNMAN LINKED
TO UFO HOTSPOT

      On Tuesday, August 10, 1999, Buford O'Neal
Furrow Jr., 37, of Olympia, Washington state
reportedly walked into the North Valley Jewish
Community Center in the Granada Hills area
of Los Angeles and opened fire, wounding
five people.
      Shot in the attack on the building's day care
center summer camp were volunteer receptionist
Isabelle Shalometh, 68; camp counselor Mindy
Finkelstein, 16; Joshua Stepakoff, age 6;
James Zidell, age 6; and Benjamin Kadish,
age 5.
      Since last week's assault, the four older
victims have been treated and released.  Five-
year-old Benjamin Kadish remains in serious
condition at the Children's Hospital in Los
Angeles.
      After fleeing the crime scene, Furrow
reportedly shot and killed Joseph Ileto, 39,
a mail carrier employed by the U.S. Postal
Service.
      Furrow, a.k.a. Neal Furrow, then fled
the Los Angeles area by taxicab, spending
$800 on two long-distance taxi rides that
took him to Las Vegas, Nevada.
      Furrow turned himself in at the FBI
office in Las Vegas the following day.
      According to an unidentified FBI source,
Furrow attacked the day care center because
he reportedly "wanted to send a wake-up call
to Americans to kill Jews."
      Asked why he shot Ileto, Furrow reportedly
answered that the mail carrier "was a non-white
and working for the (USA) government."
      Ileto was born in the Philippines and has
been a resident and citizen of the USA for
twenty-five years.
      Furrow was brought up in Lacey, Wash.,
near Olympia, the son of a master sergeant in
the U.S. Air Force.  Following graduation from
high school in 1979, Furrow enlisted in the
Army but was given a medical discharge after
a mishap in basic training.
      In the early 1990s, he reportedly joined the
rightwing Aryan Nations sect, serving as a
security guard at the group's summer congress
in 1995.  (See the Spokane, Wash. Spokesman-
Review for July 26, 1995.)
      According to USA Today, "Sue Stengel, head
of the Western States Council for the Anti-
Defamation League, said Furrow and (Debbie)
Mathews were married during an Aryan Nations
ceremony on the Idaho compound sometime
in the early 90s.  Furrow sometimes introduced
Mathews as his wife..."
      Debbie Mathews was married to Robert
"Bobby" Mathews (1949-1985), who founded
The Order, a.k.a. Bruder Schwiegen (German
for Silent Brotherhood--J.T.), a neo-Nazi urban
guerrilla group that robbed an armored car in
Ukiah, California and shot Jewish radio talk
show host Alan Berg in Denver, Colorado
fifteen years ago.  Mathews was killed in a
shootout with FBI agents on Whidbey Island
in Washington state in 1984.  (Editor's Note:
Curiously, Bobby Mathews was born in Marfa,
Texas, home of the mysterious "Marfa spook
lights.")
      According to USA Today, "The couple, who
lived in Metaline Falls, Wash. and in the desert
town of Rosamond in southern California, are
now said to be separated." (See USA Today for
August 12, 1999, page 2-A, "Furrow was
treated for mental illness."
      Furrow was a resident of Rosamond in 1993
and 1994 but has been seen there on occasion
since then.
      Rosamond (population 7,430) is located on
Highway 14 about 70 miles north of Los Angeles,
and is close to Edwards Air Force Base.  The
desert town is also one of the most notorious
UFO hotspots in California.
      Thirteen months before Furrow attempted to
turn himself in for treatment at the Fairview
Psychiatric Clinic in Washington state,
Rosamond was the site of a spectacular
UFO sighting.
      According to the Antelope Valley Press,
at 9:15 p.m. on the night of April 22, 1998,
dozens of Rosamond residents sighted
"a large object, not quite octagonal in shape,
between 100 yards to 200 yards wide, with
bright orange and yellow lights seen around
its rim," floating above Albertson's grovery
store. Both passing motorists and diners at
the local Taco Bell saw the UFO, which, they
reported, "made no sound."  (See the
Antelope Valley Press for April 23, 1998,
"Residents Report Flying Craft."  See also
UFO Roundup, volume 3, number 18 for
May 3, 1998, "Giant Octagonal UFO Seen
in Rosamond, California.")
(Editor's Comment: Don't look for this
story on Conspiracy Bull Shit--check the
initials--any time soon.)

TWO METALLIC UFOs FLY
OVER BRAZILIAN BEACH

      On Wednesday, July 7, 1999, "two metallic
yellow OVNIs" (Portuguese acronym for UFOs-
J.T.) were spotted while flying over Praia da
Baleia beach on Ilha Bela in the South Atlantic,
off the coast of Sao Paulo state.
      According to Diario de Grande ABC, "the
objects had a strange metallic yellow color
and were coming from the ocean" at a height
of "about 20 meters (66 feet).  They had no
wings and made no sound."
      Brazilian ufologists are investigating
the sighting.  (See the Brazilian newspaper
Diario de Grande ABC for July 8, 1999.
Muito obrigado a Thiago Luiz Tichetti por
eso caso.)

UFO HOVERS OVER TOWN
IN NORTHERN PORTUGAL

      On Saturday, July 10, 1999, a silvery UFO
was seen hovering over Rojas, a tiny town
in the rugged mountains of the Tras os Montes
region of northern Portugal.
      "There were a lot of witnesses to this
sighting," a resident reported.  "They say it
was kind of like a silver ball with a black or
navy-blue stripe at the center.  They had it
in view for over five minutes."
      Rojas is about 50 kilometers (30 miles)
west of Mirandella, site of last year's big UFO
sighting, and about 270 kilometers (164 miles)
north of Lisboa, the national capital.  (Muito
obrigado a Guillermo Alarcon por eso caso.)
(Editor's Note:  The Tras os Montes area was
also the site of a weird sheep mutilation case
back in the spring of 1997.)

DEAD EGYPTIAN REVIVES
IN THE MORGUE

      According to the newspaper Al-Akhbar of
Cairo, "a man pronounced dead from drowning
off the coast of Alexandria, Egypt regained
consciousness after spending three hours in
a morgue refrigerator."
      "Ali Abdel-Rahim Muhammad, 32, an
Arabic teacher, said the last thing he remembers
is having a dizzy spell and seeing a vision of his
mother's face while swimming at the beach on
Monday," August 9, 1999.
      Muhammad "was awakened by a loud bang
and unfamiliar voices."
      "'I found myself locked inside tight walls of
metal and whispers of people I didn't recognize,'
Muhammad said."
      "He grabbed the hand of an attendant who
was trying to close the refrigerator drawer in the
Alexandria morgue.  His firm grip sent the
attendant and a family who had apparently
come over to identify the body of a loved one
scurrying out of the morgue, yelling, 'Help us!'"
(See the Minneapolis, Minn. Star-Tribune for
August 11, 1999, page A-3, "'Drowned' Egyptian
awakens in morgue.")
(Editor's Comment: H.P. Lovecraft would have
had a field day with this story!)

ATTACK OF THE GIANT
TURTLES: THE ADVENTURE
CONTINUES...

      "An ancient sea turtle, nearly half the size of
a full-grown steer, was rescued near the
Verrazanno Narrows Bridge" in New York City's
harbor on Tuesday, August 10, 1999.
      "Coast Guard officers who rescued the
turtle, estimated to weigh 600 pounds and to
be nearly a century old, spotted it Monday,"
August 9, 1999, while making an inspection
tour of the oil tanker M/V Loucas, out of
Nicosia, Cyprus.
      "The turtle had snagged its left fin on a
line attached to a lobster cage near the bow
of the tanker and was weak from trying to
keep afloat with one free fin."
      "'This is an unusual case,' said Coast
Guard officer Don Wagner, who said the
Coast Guard chose to return the animal to
the sea rather than take it to an aquarium."
      "'It has been doing well for 100 years,
so it was better to let it go,' said Wagner."
(See the Chicago Tribune for August 11, 1999,
page 6, "Snagged by ship's line, giant sea
turtle is rescued.")

UNITED NATIONS POLICE
MAKE DEBUT IN KOSOVO

      The first contingents of the United Nations
International Police Force (UNIPF) arrived in
Pristina, Kosovo last week, composed of
policemen from many UN member states.
But there were some organizational
problems
      "More than 80 policemen sent from Nepal
and Bangladesh to work in Kosovo don't have
the basic equipment or training for the province's
hostile environment, the commander of the
UN's international police force said Tuesday,"
August 10, 1999.
      "The 50 officers from Nepal and 36 from
Bangladesh are 'on hold' for now, said Col.
Michael Jorsback of Sweden."
      "Jorsback is chief of staff of the U.N.
International Police Force in Kosovo, which
was created to help fight ethnic violence and
rampant crime."
      "According to Jorsback, the Nepalese
arrived without handguns, while 36 of the 49
sent from Bangladesh were mostly
administrative personnel."  (See the St. Paul,
Minn. Pioneer Press for August 11, 1999,
page 4A, "Not all cops cut out for Kosovo.")
(Editor's Comment: So now we have a
United Nations International Police Force
which is answerable only to a Security
Council elected by no one.  No, don;t look
for this news on Conspiracy Bull Shit,
either.)

      Join us next time for more UFO and
paranormal news from around the world.
With any luck, we might be able to get
our from the UFO Files feature section
up and running again.  Until then, have
a great week!

UFO ROUNDUP: Copyright 1999 by
Masinaigan Productions, all rights
reserved.  Readers may post news stories
from UFO Roundup on their websites or
in newsgroups provided that they credit the
newsletter and its editor by name and
list the date of issue in which the item
first appeared.
===============



UFOINFO:- http://ufoinfo.com

Archives for UFO Roundup/Filer's Files/UK UFO Network Bulletin/





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                     Re: Socorro: The Zamora 'Insignia'

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 99 10:17:52 PDT
Fwd Date: Sat, 21 Aug 1999 09:27:25 -0400
Subject: Re: Socorro: The Zamora 'Insignia'


 >Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 13:44:00 -0400
 >From: Andy Roberts <Brigantia@compuserve.com>
 >Subject: Socorro: The Zamora 'Insignia'
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>

 >>Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 21:53:14 -0300
 >>From: Donald Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
 >>To: updates@globalserve.net
 >>Subject: Re: Socorro: The Zamora 'Insignia'


Hi, Andy,

 >I mean what I say, 'identify', ie work towards the state when
 >the nature and origin of the Socorro object is known.
 >Unfortunately in this discussion all I've seen so far is a lot
 >of self opinionated people stating what it can't possibly be
 >because...well, because a lot of reasons I suspect.

What are "self-opinionated people," by the way?  Does this
phrase have any meaning whatever? What is the opposite of a
"self-opinionated person" -- somebody who lets other people
dictate his opinions?


 >Now those points, to my sceptical mind, makes me think there is
 >a very real possibility a hot-air balloon may have been
 >involved. True, it doesn't explain some of Zamora's statement -
 >but much of what he said fits a hot air balloon. So why this
 >theory hasn't been taken seriously by many on this list astounds
 >and worries me.

To my skeptical mind, it seems that what we have here is the
problem of pelicanism in a nutshell, and it astounds and worries
me.

In your response you fail even to acknowledge, much less to
refute, the quite clear, specific reasons that have led critics
to reject the hot-air theory about Socorro.  Instead, we are
treated to intimations that something must be wrong with the
skeptics, something that you apparently know but the rest of us
are too -- fill in the unflattering adjective -- to figure out
about ourselves.

Your response, such as it is, amounts to little more than
tongue-clucking.  You follow it by listing items whose
relevance, given the many cited problems with the hot-air
theory, you are unable to demonstrate.  And of course, in common
with all pelicanist treatments of Socorro, the associated CE2
cases of April 23, 24, and 25 go conveniently unmentioned.

All of this comes, I gather, from your strongly held belief that
since UFOs cannot exist (and those who think otherwise suffer
from certain unnamed intellectual or other maladies), any
counterexplanation -- however lousy, however undemonstrable,
however at variance with what we know about a specific case --
is preferable.  The problem, I think, is not us but you.  Why do
you want to believe in something that, from all available
evidence, isn't so?

 >>From: GT McCoy <gtmccoy@harborside.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Socorro: The Zamora 'Insignia'
 >>Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 18:32:54 -0700

 >>I think that Zamora was not a fool and at least
 >>knew what a hot air balloon was.

 >Well, he did say it 'looks like a balloon' GT! But in any case
 >no witness describes their experience perfectly and they are
 >_all_ subject to the vagaries of misperception. Zamora may have
 >been a policeman but I'm afraid the UFO subject is littered with
 >examples of policemen (alone and in groups) misperceiving
 >everything from planes to stars as 'UFOs', chasing said
 >misperceptions for miles and so on. So please don't try to tell
 >me we should take a literal view of the whole sighting!

Again, the pelicanist practice of reinventing a case so that it
can be "explained."  We are asked here to believe that Andy
Roberts knows better what Zamora saw than Zamora does, even
though (unlike the sightings you allude to) his sighting
occurred in broad daylight and at close range -- precisely the
circumstances under which testimony is most likely to be
accurate.  In any event, the practice of reinventing testimony
so that it can be explained has been so thoroughly demolished
that it's depressing to encounter it here, stated as if so
self-evidently true here that it requires no empirical
justification or supporting evidence.  All you have to do,
apparently, is to declare it, and the subject's closed. Sorry,
but it doesn't work that way.

(Parenthetically, it's worth noting that you accept eyewitness
testimony when it suits your perceived purposes.  Thus, we are
to believe that, unlike anything else Zamora said, he was
dead-on accurate when he allegedly said the object "looked like
a balloon." [Which, even if true, would be perfectly normal and
natural.  As Hynek noted long ago, witnesses tend immediately to
connect their UFO with something familiar and reject that
identification only when it becomes clear that it doesn't
account for what they're seeing.  It's called the escalation of
hypotheses.] In any event, I can't find that quote in my own
sources. Zamora's first impression, in fact, was not that the
object was a balloon.  He thought initially that he was looking
at a white car lying either on its side or upside down. When he
realized that wasn't so, he speculated that the craft was an
experimental vehicle from nearby White Sands Proving Grounds.)

Interestingly, not even Blue Book, desperate as it was to
"solve" the case, resorted to the hot-air theory. In his
memoirs, frustrated at his inability to account for Zamora's
UFO, former Blue Book head Hector Quintanilla was reduced to
intimating that Zamora had hoaxed it.  While there's no evidence
for that theory, either, it's easier to believe in a hoax here
than in a hot-air balloon -- though hot air, sans balloon, has
been much in evidence on the pelicanist end of this discussion.


 >Oh, alright, I'm a pelicanist and proud!

I don't think anybody, based on what we've seen, would doubt
that.  I am not a pelicanist, plan never to be one, and couldn't
be prouder of the choice I've made.

Cheers,

Jerry Clark







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   Aug > Aug 21

               NASA Selects Miniature Spacecraft To Test Space

From: NASANews@hq.nasa.gov
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 12:00:17 -0400 (EDT)
Fwd Date: Sat, 21 Aug 1999 09:32:15 -0400
Subject: NASA Selects Miniature Spacecraft To Test Space

Donald Savage
Headquarters, Washington, DC   Aug. 19, 1999
(Phone:  202/358-1547)

RELEASE:  99-95

NASA SELECTS MINIATURE SPACECRAFT TO TEST SPACE TECHNOLOGY

They're each about the size of a large birthday cake, weigh
about as much as a desktop computer, and are smart enough to fly
in formation far from Earth while they test new technologies.

They are three very small satellites, called the Nanosat
Constellation Trailblazer mission, and today NASA selected them
as the agency's latest New Millennium mission.  The mission will
validate methods of operating several spacecraft as a system,
and test eight technologies in the harsh space environment near
the boundary of Earth's protective magnetic field, or
magnetosphere.

Each Trailblazer spacecraft will be an octagon 16 inches across
and 8 inches high, and each will have booms and antennas that
will extend after launch. The mission will cost $28 million and
will be launched in 2003 as a secondary payload on an expendable
launch vehicle. The mission is managed by NASA's Goddard Space
Flight Center, Greenbelt, MD.

Results from the Trailblazer mission will be used to design
future missions using constellations of lightweight (about 44
pounds), highly miniaturized autonomous spacecraft.  One
proposed constellation of up to 100 spacecraft positioned around
the Earth will monitor the effects of solar activity that can
affect spacecraft, electrical power and communications systems.
Others will study global precipitation and the atmospheres of
other planets.

The Nanosat Constellation Trailblazer is the fifth in the
agency's New Millennium program, which tests technology for
future space and Earth science missions.  The program's goal is
to dramatically reduce the weight, size and costs of missions
while increasing their science capabilities.

      The technologies to be flown and tested, and the partners
      involved, are:

-- A miniature communications system to determine the positions
of the spacecraft using the Global Positioning System (NASA's
Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Pasadena, CA, and Cincinnati
Electronics Corp., Mason, OH).

-- A set of software that automatically operates the spacecraft
and determines orbits (Bester Tracking System, Emeryville, CA).

-- A communications system component that uses one-fourth the
voltage and half the power, weighs 12 times less and is nine
times smaller than proven technology (Aero Astro, Boston, MA).

-- A new method of connecting electrical lines that saves weight
(Lockheed Martin, Denver, CO).

-- A new type of microelectronic device that is more reliable
and uses 20 times less power than proven technology (Goddard
Space Flight Center and the University of New Mexico,
Albuquerque).

-- An electrically tunable coating that can change its
properties from absorbing the Sun's heat when the spacecraft is
cool to reflecting or emitting heat when needed (Goddard Space
Flight Center and the Johns Hopkins University Applied Physics
Lab, Laurel, MD).

-- A very tiny microelectromechanical system chip that provides
fine attitude adjustments on the spacecraft using 8.5 times less
power and weighing less than half as much as proven systems
(Marotta Scientific Controls, Montville, NJ).

--  Development of a Lithium Ion Power System for Small
Satellites. A rechargeable lithium ion battery that stores two
to four times more energy and has a longer life than proven
technology (Yardney Technical Products, Pawcatuck, CT).

"Not only could these technologies make future missions more
productive and less expensive, some could become consumer
products," said Dr. Dana Brewer, New Millennium Program
Executive, NASA Headquarters, Washington, DC.  "For example, the
variable- emittance thermal-control system is a coating applied
to surfaces such as automobile windows which becomes highly
reflective when you apply an electrical current to it.  It
blocks out a lot of the sunlight, keeping it cooler inside a
car."

-end-

     * * *

NASA press releases and other information are available
automatically by sending an Internet electronic mail message to
domo@hq.nasa.gov. In the body of the message (not the subject
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                     Re: Socorro: The Zamora 'Insignia'

From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@connectmmic.net>
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 22:20:08 -0700
Fwd Date: Sat, 21 Aug 1999 09:38:25 -0400
Subject: Re: Socorro: The Zamora 'Insignia'


From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
To: 02 - UFO UpDates Subscribers <":;"@connectmmic.net>
Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 1999 15:41 Fragment
Subject: UFO UpDate: Re: Socorro: The Zamora 'Insignia'


 >Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 13:44:00 -0400
 >From: Andy Roberts <Brigantia@compuserve.com>
 >Subject: Socorro: The Zamora 'Insignia'
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>

 >>Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 21:53:14 -0300
 >>From: Donald Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
 >>To: updates@globalserve.net
 >>Subject: Re: Socorro: The Zamora 'Insignia'

<snip>

 >With any UFO case it's perfectly reasonable (before you all
 >start yipping) -nay, essential - to fit any relevant parts of
 >the sighting to phenomena we already know exist. Which in this
 >case is why the balloon theory is perfectly feasible.

My explanation of the Socorro case...

I believe Zamora saw a flying tatooed elephant experiencing an
intestinal disorder known as meteorism.  I leave to your
imagination (pun intended) how some huge fart got ignited.

This explanation - which I hereby copyright - covers every angle
of Zamora's sighting: the size of the thing, the roar, the
exhaust.  You name it.

The landing marks? Come on: you can't winch up a crashed
elephant into thin air.  I propose four 30 foot beams chained
together by amateurs to lift the dead elephant and put it in the
back of a truck.

Fits the bill.

 >Oh, alright, I'm a pelicanist and proud!


What exactly do you pride yourself in?

Honesty?

Coherence?

Pelicanism?





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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Aug > Aug 21

                     Re: Socorro: The Zamora 'Insignia'

From: Martin Phillips <martin.phillips@dtn.ntl.com>
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 23:18:59 +0100
Fwd Date: Sat, 21 Aug 1999 09:59:56 -0400
Subject: Re: Socorro: The Zamora 'Insignia'


 >Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 13:44:00 -0400
 >From: Andy Roberts <Brigantia@compuserve.com>
 >Subject: Socorro: The Zamora 'Insignia'
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>

 >I mean what I say, 'identify', ie work towards the state when
 >the nature and origin of the Socorro object is known.
 >Unfortunately in this discussion all I've seen so far is a lot
 >of self opinionated people stating what it can't possibly be
 >because...well, because a lot of reasons I suspect.

 >Now those points, to my sceptical mind, makes me think there is
 >a very real possibility a hot-air balloon may have been
 >involved. True, it doesn't explain some of Zamora's statement -
 >but much of what he said fits a hot air balloon. So why this
 >theory hasn't been taken seriously by many on this list astounds
 >and worries me.

 >With any UFO case it's perfectly reasonable (before you all
 >start yipping) -nay, essential - to fit any relevant parts of
 >the sighting to phenomena we already know exist. Which in this
 >case is why the balloon theory is perfectly feasible.


As someone without any firm theories as to what's going on with
UFOs, and therefore neutral in the ET/human arguments, I watch
'debates' like this with interest.

As normal, there are strongly-argued views which use the same
evidence to argue for opposite points of view. I agree that
balloons should be considered, but I'd say they have been
considered here.

Going purely from messages on this list, and re-reading some
books which mention Socorro, balloons might explain some things.
But they don't explain everything, so a balloon isn't the
answer.






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Aug > Aug 21

                      Re: 'New?' FBI memo about Roswell

From: Michel M. Deschamps <ufoman@ican.net>
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 02:27:29 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 21 Aug 1999 11:39:37 -0400
Subject: Re: 'New?' FBI memo about Roswell


 >From: Henny van der Pluijm <hvdp@worldonline.nl>
 >Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 04:35:02 +0200 (MET DST)
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
 >Subject: 'New?' FBI memo about Roswell

 >Found this at http://www.space.com/area51/websightings_812.html

 >For old-school UFOlogists, the Paranormal News published an FBI
 >memo concerning the 1947 Roswell object and 12 pages of Project
 >Blue Book documents. Although the Blue Book documents were
 >introductory in nature, the Roswell memo described the object
 >recovered as "a flying disc . hexagonal in shape . the object
 >found resembles a high-altitude weather balloon with a radar
 >reflector, but that telephone conversation between their office
 >and Wright Field had not borne out this belief."

 >Is this new?


No, the document is not new.

I found it amongst the 575 documents I purchased from The Fund
For UFO Research.  And it is also available on the FBI website,
under Unusual Phenomena.

Stanton Friedman also mentioned this document a few years ago.
Apparently, it is the cover story that was later given to the
public and the press.

Michel M. Deschamps
MUFON's Provincial Section Director for Sudbury,
Ontario, Canada








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   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Aug > Aug 21

                     Re: Socorro: The Zamora 'Insignia'

From: David Rudiak DRudiak@aol.com
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 14:27:41 EDT
Fwd Date: Sat, 21 Aug 1999 12:07:48 -0400
Subject: Re: Socorro: The Zamora 'Insignia'


From: Andy Roberts <Brigantia@compuserve.com>
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 13:44:00 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 18:41:17 -0400
Subject: Re: Socorro: The Zamora 'Insignia'


 >Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 21:53:14 -0300
 >From: Donald Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
 >To: updates@globalserve.net
 >Subject: Re: Socorro: The Zamora 'Insignia'

Don Ledger wrote:

 >>What do you mean by identify Andy?. Do you mean when only 50
 >>percent of the facts fit or 60 percent...or are you referring to
 >>100 percent. We are nowhere near 100 percent yet so why blow it
 >>off?

 >I mean what I say, 'identify', ie work towards the state when
 >the nature and origin of the Socorro object is known.

It doesn't, however, mean chasing after a lot of obvious red
herrings like "hot air balloon."

 >Unfortunately in this discussion all I've seen so far is a lot
 >of self opinionated people stating what it can't possibly be
 >because...well, because a lot of reasons I suspect.

Yes, a LOT of very good reasons, NONE of which I notice that you
address, just like a true pelicanist.

We would very much like to hear how a hot air balloon can leave
deep impressions in the ground. That's one heavy "hot air
balloon."

Or why there was no evidence of a gondola. Do you really
believe crews go INSIDE hot air balloons?

Hows this? Zamora when he was CLOSE to the object (50 feet --
that's how close), said it was no larger than a small car. You
obviously have no concept of how much volume a hot air balloon
would have to displace to raise two men plus equipment into the
air. Here's a simple calculation that shows that is would be
IMPOSSIBLE for a "balloon" that size to lift that much weight.

 >From the fundamental gas law

PV = nRT,

where P=Pressure, V=volume, T = Temperature, R = gas constant,
n = number of moles of air.

Now let's look at the case of a hot air balloon of volume V.
The volume doesn't change with temperature (balloon assumed to
be nonextensible). Since the balloon is open to the air, the
pressure P at equilibrium will equal external air pressure (no
air flowing in or out of the balloon). So the product PV at
equilibrium is constant regardless of air temperature inside the
balloon.

This means that if the temperature is increased, some fraction
of the moles of air, n, have to leak out to keep the product on
the right side of the equation constant as well. So let's say
external air temperature is 300 deg. Kelvin (27 deg Celsius or
81 deg Fahrenheit) and the internal air temperature is 25%
greater than this, or 375 deg K. Then the number of moles
inside the balloon has to decrease by 20% to keep the product on
the right constant.

Thus the hot air balloon loses about 20% of its air mass and
weight. This is where it gets its buoyancy. According to
Archimede's principle, the loss of weight, or buoyancy, equals
the weight of the fluid that is displaced (in this case, the air
that flows out of the balloon as it is heated). So if the
Socorro object was a balloon, the weight of the air displaced by
heating of the air would have to equal the weight of the
passengers plus the weight of the balloon equipment if the whole
mess was to float.

Let's say the "balloonists" were real little guys, only 50 kg
each or 110 pounds. That's 100 kg for the two of them. Let's
say the balloon equipment (bag, heater, fuel, rigging, etc.) was
only another 30 kg.  This means for them to lift off, 130 kg
of air had to be displaced from the main balloon.

So now the question becomes, how big does the balloon have to be
such that if it loses 20% of it's air, this will equal 130 kg of
mass? (These are very conservative mass figures, BTW, but I'm
trying to give the absurd hot air balloon theory all the wiggle
space it can get.)

The density of air at 300 deg Kelvin is about 1.3 kg/m^3. Thus
about 100 m^3 of air equals 130 kg.  Therefore, if the balloon
started with 500 m^3 of air at 300 deg Kelvin, heated the air to
375 deg, leaked out 20% of its original air mass, or the
equivalent of 100 m^3, it would now have just enough buoyancy to
float the balloon plus the crew of two.

Well, how big is a car-size object? Instead of an oval like
Zamora described, let's make it a box, 2 x 2 x 5 meters, or
something like a VW van. That's 20 meter^3 altogether.

But we need a balloon volume at least 500 meter^3 in order for
the hot air balloon to float. OOPS!!!! The stupid hot-air
balloon hypothesis is only off by a factor of about 25. For a
volume of 500 m^3, a spherical balloon has to have a diameter of
around 10 meters or over 30 feet. Now do you understand why hot
air balloons are considerably larger than VW vans? Do you think
Zamora could tell the difference from only 50 feet away?

Even if the "balloon" were filled with hydrogen, which would
increase the lift by nearly a factor of 4, the object would
still have been much too small to have lifted two men, even
real little guys.

 >It may have been a hot air balloon, it may not.

How about not?

 >But look at it another way.

 >* We know balloons exist

We know lots of things exist. E.g., Zamora said it was the
size of a car and he initially thought it was a car. Does that
mean we should consider a Chevy as a hypothesis? Chevy's exist.

 >* We have some evidence to suggest that they may well have been
 >flown in that area of America at that time

"Some evidence to suggest," or clear-cut evidence? Even if true,
what difference would it make if none of the other pertinent
details fit? Why consider the Chevy hypothesis even if there
were lots of Chevys in New Mexico at that time? Perhaps because
Chevys don't fly? Well, neither do hot air balloons that size.

 >* There is some suggestion that a platform-like structure may
 >have been used on balloons at this time

A "suggestion" or actual evidence?  As usual, all we have is a
lot of pelicanist handwaving.

 >* We know that the insignia looked similar to an insignia used on a balloon

Do we?

 >* Zamora radioed in that the object, 'looks like a balloon.'

Which was nothing more than a comparison to a familiar object
when asked on the radio what it looked like. It doesn't mean it
was a balloon or Zamora thought it was a balloon.  Zamora
initially thought it was an overturned car when looking at it
from a distance. Does that mean we should waste a lot of time
considering the Chevy hypothesis?

 >* He noted the figures 'looked normal in shape'

(like human balloon pilots?)

But small like children. Footprints found afterwards were also
small, quite independent of his perception. So if these were
human balloon pilots, they were midget balloon pilots. Not a lot
of those around.

 >* He noted the 'object was smooth, no doors or windows' (like a
 >balloon?)

Strange "hot air balloon" that lacks seams and rigging. Where
was the gondola, or do you really believe people ride inside hot
air balloons? How do you imagine they got inside or steered if
there were no doors or windows?

 >* The object's ease of silent movement and lifting slowly is
 >largely consistent with a>balloon.

How about Zamora's description of how the "object was travelling
very fast" after it lifted off and quickly disappeared over the
mountains? Is that "largely consistent with a balloon?"

 >and so on........

And so on? We're still waiting for you to get to the beef -- at
least one strong piece of evidence that anybody in his right
mind should even entertain the ridiculous "hot air balloon"
hypothesis.

 >Now those points, to my sceptical mind,

To your highly illogical, scientifically untrained mind. But I
forget -- you're a pelicanist.

 >makes me think there is
 >a very real possibility a hot-air balloon may have been
 >involved. True, it doesn't explain some of Zamora's statement -

"Some" or most? To everybody except the pelicanists, it is
blatantly obvious that the vast majority of details don't fit.

 >but much of what he said fits a hot air balloon.

Essentially nothing of what he said fits a hot air balloon.

 >So why this theory hasn't been taken seriously by many on
 >this list astounds and worries me.

It would be truly worrisome if many on this list took this
nonsense seriously. The fact that this apparently "astounds"
you, is only evidence that you are as clueless as the original
pelicanist himself, James Easton.

 >>From: GT McCoy <gtmccoy@harborside.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
 >>Subject:
 >>Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 18:32:54 -0700

GT Mcoy opined:

 >>I think that Zamora was not a fool and at least
 >>knew what a hot air balloon was.

 >Well, he did say it 'looks like a balloon' GT! But in any case
 >no witness describes their experience perfectly and they are
 >_all_ subject to the vagaries of misperception.

Funny how the "vagaries of misperception" never apply to the
details pelicanists choose to focus on, to the exclusion of all
the others that obviously don't fit.

 >Zamora may have
 >been a policeman but I'm afraid the UFO subject is littered with
 >examples of policemen (alone and in groups) misperceiving
 >everything from planes to stars as 'UFOs', chasing said
 >misperceptions for miles and so on. So please don't try to tell
 >me we should take a literal view of the whole sighting!

Zamora saw the whole thing up close. There were familiar objects
to scale size by, such as bushes and two humanoid figures right
next to the object. Impressions left in the ground were another
means by which the size of the object could be estimated quite
independently of Zamora's account. So, among other things, the
object was much too small to have been a hot air balloon and
clearly much too heavy.

 >With any UFO case it's perfectly reasonable (before you all
 >start yipping) -nay, essential - to fit any relevant parts of
 >the sighting to phenomena we already know exist. Which in this
 >case is why the balloon theory is perfectly feasible.

No, it's not "perfectly feasible." It's scientifically
impossible. People aren't rejecting it because they are
"opinionated." They are rejecting it because it is obviously
absurd. There are all sorts of major details that are lethal to
the hot air balloon hypothesis. Why should anybody with brains
consider the trivial details that might match when many more
important details clearly do not.

How can a hot air balloon the size of a car lift two men?

 >Oh, alright, I'm a pelicanist and proud!

Uhhh, Andy, this is not something to be proud of. But
pelicanist seem to be clueless about a lot of things.






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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Aug > Aug 21

                Recent Sighting Submissions Outside Scotland

From: Dave Ledger <dledger@cableinet.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 20:32:52 +0100
Fwd Date: Sat, 21 Aug 1999 12:23:09 -0400
Subject: Recent Sighting Submissions Outside Scotland


Dear Errol & listmembers,

FYI, here are a few UFO reports and sightings that have been
submitted to the UFO Scotland sightings submission page on our
website, over the past few weeks or so.

Please note that many of the sightings that we receive cannot
possibly be further researched by ourselves due to the location
being beyond Scotland's area amongst other things.

Therefore, if any investigators or researchers near the location
of any sightings which may be reported by ourselves in the
future i.e. outside Scotland, could possibly get in touch with
the witnesses or follow up on the report or provide any
assistance and support needed, then the submission would not
have been in vain. That is also providing you deem it worthy of
further investigation of course.

We do try to weed out any probable hoaxes etc before sending out
the reports to you all, but at the same time, we try to remain
open minded enough to provide the support needed by the many
experiencers also. As many of you who have experienced a real
anomalous UFO sighting will already know, it can be a life
changing experience and difficult to deal with mentally,
especially the closer encounters.

The reports are posted as received and are not edited in any
way.

My Sincere thanks for your time and assistance,

 >From your friend,

                 Dave Ledger (UFO Scotland)


Sighting reports follow:

Name : Aaron Crossley   (watching4vimana@yahoo.com)
date: : 6/6/99
location: : Madison, AL, USA
time : 12:05 am Central Time
AM : on

My_Sighting_Submission: Let me start of by saying that I am
quite the UFO enthusiast and have been facsinated with anything
UFO related since I was a little kid. I got a call at about
12:05am from my friend jessica, who was over at her boyfriend
David's house with several of my other friends. They told me
that her, and everyone at the house at the time had been out
watching UFOs for a few minutes now. I was ecstatic and went to
go wake my parents. I got my dad up and outside to come search
the sky.

We spotted in the south-eastern sky a strobing light. It seemed
to be high altitude, although admitadly i'm not too good at
judging altitude.

I've seen planes strobe lights and this was different. This very
bright, and not moving. It started to strobe at a faster and
faster pace until it would flash once very brightly (Enough to
light up a good bit of the sky), dissapear, and then to my
amazement re-appear in another part of the sky with another big
flash, After the big flash it began slowing its bright white
blinking to the rate it was at before.

At this point I decided I had to go get my mom, as my dad didnt
want me to wake her up the first time. When her and I got back
downstairs I walked out of my garage just in time to see it
dissapear with another white flash and reapear with another
white flash. At one point the first one flashed bright once,
another one showed up, and flew near the first at a high rate of
speed, pulling off a sharp turn torwards it. The second one was
reddish, but still flashed white sometimes.

It was the most incredible thing I have ever seen. After a good
half hour  of putting on what seemed to be some kind of show
they started moving south in dissapearing, re-apearing zig zag
patterns, until they got too far to see. I wish I had some kind
of video camera, as I would love to watch it over and over
again. It was amazing, and yet kind of creepy at the same time.

I have several witnesses, and my friend John says he saw police
officers and civilian spectators looking up into the sky in a
convienence store parking lots on his way home. I have not yet
called the Madison Police Department to confirm this.

I did however call the air traffic control tower at huntsville
international airport and asked them if they had any sightings
or blips and they just told me that air traffic control doesnt
track anything that they arent expecting. I kindly asked him to
ask someone who was there the night it happened, but the guy
there didnt see anything. I guess they dont look at the radar
screen unless a planes coming in. Have you guys gotten any
sightings like this? Can you refer me to some video clips that
contain a similar sighting? Do you get many sightings like this?
Mail me anytime, and I dont care about anonymity. If you wish to
speak to any of the other witnesses via phone E-mail me. I
watched the news the next day and apparantly the media didnt get
wind of it, so I really want this one to get out. Thanks you for
your time.

****************************************************************

Name: Tim Weatherall  (www.weatherrs.@freeserve.co.uk)
date: : 7/10/99
location: LIVERPOOL
time: 10.50
PM: on

My_Sighting_Submission: UFO sighting I just thought I'd hang the
washing out, when I suddenly felt something was watching me, so
i turned and in the distance there was an object about 500ft up
it was not an aeroplane I know that because it was soundless it
was kind of triangler shape and had white lights beaming from
the bottom I felt quite scared I ran in to tell my dad but it
was gone as if it had never been there it was far to fast for a
plane there was nothing to be seen in the distance.?

****************************************************************

Name : Michael James Martinez  (Budgie@gateway.net)
date: : 8/1/1999
location: : Bethlehem  PA
time : Around 7:30/8:00
PM : on
My_Sighting_Submission : It was around 7:30/8:00, and I was
swimming in my aunts pool and I got out becuase the water was
getting cold and I decided to sit on the deck of the pool to dry
off. I was just sitting there for about five miniuts and I saw
this red flash of light about two hundred feet away. I did not
here any sound of what a plane would make and just like a bat
out of hell, a red orbed shaped object appeared out of no where.
It was about three hundred feet off the ground and it just
hovered and bobbed around,and just as fast as it apered it
disappeared. As astonished as I was I was about to run in the
house when I saw a jet go past and past the jet was a bright
flash and I saw someting shoot off like a bullet. So I suppose I
saw two unidentified flying objects.

****************************************************************

Name : John Thomson  (Rolstonaccordions@compuserve.com)
date: : 1/08/99
location: : MorningsideRoad Newmains
time : 12:15
AM : on

My_Sighting_Submission : Ball of light blue light passing at
very high speed , high altitude

****************************************************************

Name : Jn Trausti Arason  (admin@ice.is)
date: : dont remember
location: : Iceland, Reykjavik , Grafarvogi
time :  about 20:00 PM
PM : on

My_Sighting_Submission : Well I woke up one morning and look out
of the window then I saw weird light .. it flied very very fast
I saw it in about 10 sec, no sound from it. Maybe satelite?
Maybe UFO?

****************************************************************

Name : Chris Augustin  (augustin-chris@aramark.com)
date: : 7/17/1999
location: : Sewell, New Jersey
time : 10:00 Eastern Time
PM : on

My_Sighting_Submission : I have believed in UFO's for some time, but
have never seen one.

Saturday, July 17th, 1999 I think I may have seen one. It was
about 10:00 at night, and was a clear night. I was throwing
something into the trashcan out at the curb, and when I turned
around and walked towards the house I looked up at the sky. That
is when I saw something that looked like an airplane, but the
lights were formatted backwards. Flying west to east, there were
three white lights, two in the front, leading it, and one in the
back. There was also a steady red light in the center, which was
not blinking, but glowing faintly. There was no sound like a
normal plane would make, but a low humming sound. There were
also no other planes in the area. I watched it until it passed;
I did not have any cameras, so I could not get a picture of it.
I always look up at night and look for things, but I did not
expect to really find anything around here. I think I saw the
common triangle UFO.

****************************************************************

Name : Tanner  (tannerjoe_98@yahoo.com)
date: : mid august 1999
location: : Indiana
time : 10 to 11 pm
PM : on

My_Sighting_Submission : my friend and I were at the town park
when we heard like a really lound windy noise but we thought it
was a truck goin accross the broken down tracks. so we went up
town and set on a bench near the bank when a couple of girls
showed up and said somthing was chasing them and they were
really freaked out so we got in the car with them just to make
sure they were goin to be ok. they took us near the end of town
when she sudenly slamed on the brakes and said there it is we
looked up and there was 3 lights blue white red. It looked as if
it was comin towards us so she took off and it was right up
above us then we didnt see so we went back to the bank. and we
noticed it again but it was high in the atmosphere now but it
look like there was a hole in the sky then we noticed 2 of them
so my friend and I was goin toward my house, about 2 blocks from
the bank, when we seen more of the light that looked like they
were comming toward us so we ran all the way to my! house I went
in and got my camra and broncolars. some how we couldnt get pics
of them it seemed it was to dark or somthing. but I could get a
good glimpse of them with my broncolars it looked like a disk
with one side lighted up. I kept seeing them all through the sky
then we heard that wind noise again and we looked in the trees
and we seen a triagle thing with a spotlight thing in the front
and red light on one side and blue light on the other it was to
low for planes and to quiet it went right through my trees and
vanished and then that was the last we seen of them. im not
makeing this up. the next day one of my other friends who we
didnt even say anything about the story started telling us about
it that he seen it too.

****************************************************************


Name : jimmy sullivan
date: : august ,11,1999
location: : paoli,pa
time : 9:37  eastern time
PM : on
My_Sighting_Submission : When I was playing whith my sister I
saw a spotlight with red lights surrounding an amber light.It
was not moving.I went inside to get my ufo book. I came back in
about 9 seconds  and it was gone. but I still remembered the
color of the lights and I remembered the spotlight. the colors
matched. thats how I found out it was a ufo.I liked it because
it was a UFO.
****************************************************************


Name : Mister Mulder  (x.files@home.com)
date: : June 18/99
location: : Toronto Canada
time : 11:45
PM : on
My_Sighting_Submission : For about a month I saw a bright white
light outside my window for my apartment looks out over the
water. And I studied and stared at it for it appeared everynight
at the exact same time. I would watch it to see what it was. I
thought maybe it was a planet or something till one night I was
in my room and I went to the window i took the screen out and
leaned out the window as far as I could ( I am 17 stories up)
and i know they dont help but I tryed using my binoculars to no
avail. I climbed back in my room re put the screen in the window
and for the first time in a about a month I spent watching this
this . It just dissappeaerd it moved so fast to the left going
west and I looked all around to try and see is this for real or
what and since that night I only saw it twice more. Think what
you want but I know I saw a ufo and it wasnt the only time
either I have seen one.

****************************************************************

Name : P.Edmondson   (p.edmondson@virgin.net)
date: : 5th August 1999
location: : Nelson Lancashire
time : 9.50
PM : on

My_Sighting_Submission : Sighting of a single bright light in
the sky. >From my Kitchen window it just appeared in a N NE
position. There were no other flashing lights visible ie like
that of a helicoptor. I could not hear any sound at all. The
height of the object was about 400 ft. Visible for about 30
seconds and then the light went out like a light bulb as if it
accelerated away from me at an amazing speed. It could not be a
helicoptor as It would have been audible and other flashing
lights would have been visible. I have also ruled out the
possibility of this being an aeroplane as it was too low and the
light dissapeared too quickly.

****************************************************************


================================================================
== If you see someone without a smile......give them one of
yours :)
****************************************************************
** Posted by: Dave Ledger  (mailto:UFOSCOT@cableinet.co.uk)

VISIT "UFO SCOTLAND" AT:
wkweb5.cableinet.co.uk/dledger/

JOIN the UFO Scotland mailing list at:
http://UFOscotland.listbot.com"

ICQ No: #4851425
******************************************************************
THE TRUTH IS JUST AROUND THE CORNER!..................BUT HOW FAR?
==================================================================
"The sands of time are trickling away from our dear mother Earth
  and yet we continue to fight amongst ourselves and destroy our
natural enviroment,leaving all the mess for our children and their
children's children to inherit when we're gone."






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Aug > Aug 21

                    Abductions: A Funny Thing Happened...

From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 20:30:36 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 21 Aug 1999 12:30:12 -0400
Subject: Abductions: A Funny Thing Happened...

Abductions: A Funny Thing Happened on the Way to the Millennium


List,

One aspect of the UFO phenomenon I occasionally think about (to
the chagrin of some) is the abduction angle.

For all practical intent & purposes it began in 1961, with the
Betty & Barney Hill experience, in the same way that the UFO
phenomenon itself can be said to begin with the 1947 Arnold
sighting: i.e., yes, earlier precedents (such as the 1957
Villas-Boas case) can be found, but we all know what we're
talking about here.

The point is this: in the last 38 years since the Hill event
(can we round it off to an even 40?), two separate lines of
thought have taken exponentially opposite tangents of evidence,
or, if you prefer, indication.

One the one hand, we're told by abductionoligists that
abductions now number in the millions.

On the other hand, the number of surveillance systems under
civilian and scientific control has also exploded exponentially
during the same period. Think back 40 years ago and compare that
day's technology to today's, 1961 NASA to 1999 NASA. The
personal computer, never mind global positioning satellites, and
civilian "spy" satellites weren't even a gleam in Blue Book's
eye. The number of civilian air traffic controllers and radar
systems in operation worldwide has probably multiplied by at
least a factor of four, if not eight or twelve. As of today, if
you want, you can even enlist your own personal desktop computer
in SETI -- the Search for Extraterrestrial Intelligence. Yet
classic UFO sightings don't seem to have kept pace with claims,
allegations, or extrapolations of UFO abductions.

So how is it, given these two highways headed in apparently
opposite directions, that we can claim more close encounters
than ever with little corroborating evidence to back it up, when
our sensors have multiplied many times over?

Read between the lines (MJ-12's job must be getting harder by
the minute, requiring a vast infusion of personnel to maintain
the coverup, etc).Talk amongst yourselves. Get back to me.

Dennis Stacy
http://www.anomalist.com






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                            Alfred's Odd Ode #313

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 1999 05:11:38 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 21 Aug 1999 16:25:50 -0400
Subject: Alfred's Odd Ode #313


Apology to MW #313 (For August 21, 1999)

Has J. D. Ford at last resolved the tribulations Powell evolved?
Is the battle over -- lost? Is he bullied, cowed, and tossed?
Did three men, in TRUTH, contrive to murder Powell as it's
described? _Has_ John pleaded mental health, admitting he, in
fact, used stealth to plot a killing with some others he had met
-- some stupid brothers? Did he get the isotope and try to kill
(like one fine dope!) with cancer as a murder weapon? Can he be
that lost? It happens.  Suffolk county says he's guilty,
forgetting _Suffolk_ may be filthy -- lost in their own wicked
schemes beyond the scope of John Ford's dreams.

John is ONE against the many. People, quick, condemned him
plenty. To this day he's ridiculed as a futile, phony fool!
Short and portly, described as Fudd-like, he's disgraced because
he looked like every fat kid *earning* torment in this world
that LOVES conformists. He was strident, and litigious -- in
your face . . . perhaps obnoxious. He could _make_ an enemy, and
that's a fact that's plain to see. What he's not, by MOST
account, was a danger to himself (you louts!), or any other
living thing that slinks or crawls -- SOME human beings!!!

I can't believe these smirking cretins, noses running, dripping
-- leaking . . . sneering up their soggy sleeves their
judgements (so like farts) they sneeze. Quick to simply go along
with ROT that Suffolk County's grown, they'd *wish* away
anomaly, so bogus their *reality*. Suffolk county's FAR from
righteous! I argue that it's SPITEFUL -- BLIGHTED, _too_ quick
down a shady road, and filled with thugs that lurk like toads.
His critics, somewhat less than balanced, offer unjust SCORN on
balance. They would caper at the fire as they burned him -- sick
desire. Taking glee in his misfortune, laughing that he's lost a
fortune, they're derisive as they crow their litanies that suck
and blow.

What can cause such fulsome hatred? What's he threatened that's
so sacred? What worshiped cow will quake in fear as Johnny Ford
comes snooping near? Powell's involved in kick back schemes that
filled his pocket, so it seems. Perhaps he couldn't bear
inspection; perhaps too much foretold detection; perhaps, in
FACT, a UFO came down inside that park. Who knows?  Who's to say
in times like these that wrench us to our bleeding knees, and
make us pray in mossy cloisters, sans our sense and smarts, or
choices!!!

I would live in belts we'd made of asteroids; we'd work and
play. I would have my livelihood depend on drops my pen makes
good. I would live a real deal beyond what some will say is
*real*, finding all my satisfaction minus harmful, harsh
distraction, knowing all the secrets there, and sweeping all the
corners bare! I would have the prisons emptied -- promptly
filled with cops and preachers. All the cops performing graft,
plus those who know it -- ALL the rest! All the preachers saving
souls, but lining pockets (don't you know), plus the ones who
witnessed this (but dummied up), yes, ON that list! Pardon this
hyperbole, poetic license sets me free!  Unconfined to raw
tradition, I can trace with some precision that which jerks your
chain the best. I slap the paint -- it STICKS? You bet!

I don't know if  Ford was wronged, but I suspect it clear and
strong. I don't know if he is crazy -- some that ARE have
INTEREST, plainly. I don't CARE that he was forward, or talked
like Daffy Duck -- was awkward. I don't CARE he stepped on toes,
or bothered Powell -- was up his nose! I don't CARE that I'M
derided for positions I've decided are more moral THAN those
held by nymwits (that can go to hell)! Those that wish poor John
Ford ill are filled with malice, ire and swill. They can chew
the bitter root; their ample asses bear my boot. Shove it where
the sun won't see (!), if John Ford lost (?) than YOU'RE not
free!

Lehmberg@snowhill.com

Heavy freaking sigh!

Restore John Ford!

--
Ponder the Wit & Wisdom of Ching Chow!
View "Unstill Life" -- Animation . . . and more.
Consider Matter, Mind & Movement.
See the current HTML "Apology to MW" with illustration.
Take a ride in the Teleporter.

Explore "Alfred Lehmberg's Alien View" at his Fortunecity URL.

http://www.fortunecity.com/roswell/arecibo/46/
<Updated 14 August>
http://www.fortunecity.com/roswell/witches/237/lehmberg.html

John Ford Restoration Fund -- Send your checks and
money orders to _me_, Alfred Lehmberg
(cut out the lawyers, they got their's) at:
304 Melbourne Drive, Enterprise AL, 36330. Strict records kept.
$350.00 pledged -- $200.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see from
afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, burned at the





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                       Germany - The Greifswald-Lights

From: Werner Walter <113236.1604@compuserve.com>
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 1999 08:39:25 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 21 Aug 1999 16:30:25 -0400
Subject: Germany - The Greifswald-Lights


Hi Listmembers,

Now, we from CENAP-Germany have an English-URL with a report on
the Greifswald-lights.

Please visit:

http://www.01019freenet.de/CENAP-MV

Thanks.

Werner Walter





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                     Re: Socorro: The Zamora 'Insignia'

From: GT McCoy <gtmccoy@harborside.com>
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 1999 07:09:05 -0700
Fwd Date: Sat, 21 Aug 1999 16:37:57 -0400
Subject: Re: Socorro: The Zamora 'Insignia'


 >From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 00:50:28 EDT
 >Subject: Re: Socorro: The Zamora 'Insignia'
 >To: updates@globalserve.net


Hello, all (Others have made points that I wanted to make, and I
won't re-hash them)

 >>From: GT McCoy <gtmccoy@harborside.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Socorro: The Zamora 'Insignia'
 >>Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 18:32:54 -0700

 >>>Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 13:40:52 -0400
 >>>From: Andy Roberts <Brigantia@compuserve.com>
 >>>Subject: Re: Socorro: The Zamora 'Insignia'
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>

 >>Hello all, I was praying that the subject of Pelicans would go
 >>away. It did.

 >>>>From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
 >>>>Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 08:55:05 EDT
 >>>>Subject: Re: Socorro: The Zamora 'Insignia'
 >>>>To: updates@globalserve.net

 >>Let me start by saying: New Mexico in April is a lousy time to
 >>fly Balloons. Wind and dust are not condusive to Good Balloon
 >>travel.
 >
 >>>>I'll go you one better than that. In the Project Blue Book file
 >>>>there is a letter suggesting that two men from Dubuque, Iowa,
 >>>>traveling in New Mexico at the time saw the same craft. The
 >>>>letter writer didn't have any names but said the article
 >>>>appeared on the front page of the Dubuque newspaper. Apparently
 >>>>no one ever followed up on this.
 >>>>Took me almost twenty minutes to find the article. Paul Kies and
 >>>>Larry Kratzer claimed they saw the same object as Zamora. They
 >>>>didn't add much in the way of additional descriptions, but did
 >>>>provide some corroboration of the Zamora sighting.

 >>>But if Zamora *did* see and misperceive a balloon,
 >>>and if these two witnesses saw the same object, a balloon
 >>>is what they also saw.

<snip>

 >>>Why attempts to explain Zamora's sighting reasonably and
 >>>in terms of known objects causes so much problems with some
 >>>people is a mystery in itself. Don't you *want* to identify
 >>>what he saw?

I _want_ to identify it, a balloon it is not-look at the
obvious-the direction of travel, the fact that it left evidence
that is clearly not what a hot air balloon would leave.Oh, never
mind.

New Mexico in the spring is a nasty place to fly a Hot Air
balloon I don't think International Paper would have risked an
cross-county flight at that time (I nearly got slammed into the
dirt years ago on the San Augustin-at the first part of May-in a
four engine Douglas)

 >>Let's start with what he didn't see, 1: A helicopter of the era
 >>too noisy. 2: Swamp Gas Socorro? 3: A Balloon of the Hot Air
 >>type (oh, I'm not going any farther with that) .

 >>What ever Zamora saw (I'm almost convinced it might have been a
 >>little somthing that had wandered "off range" at white sands -

I've always wondered if the insigina as originally decribed by
Zamora wasn't a marking for Tracking Cameras and maybe the thing
(whose-ever technology that it was testing) wandered off-range
at White Sands due to a problem, say, a fouled plug on the Ford
flathead that ran the Transwarp drive, or sombody had to take a
leak - whatever - and got caught by the local Cop.

 >>but not quite). I think that Zamora was not a fool and at least
 >>knew what a hot air balloon was

<snip>

Also, why is it that the Observer's opinion in all of these
'solved' cases tend to be rend- ered irrelevant. Zamora
-Cop, Arnold - Pilot. I'll add Trent, too and others. Is it that
they are too stupid to know what they saw was truly, ah, prosaic
or just maybe what they saw was well, strange. Being conveniently
dead also helps, when you can't defend yerself against the Ol'
ad homnem.

 >Good thinking GT. However I have a solution to this dilemma.
 >Remember that time "BP?" (Before Pelicans), when some guy
 >or maybe one a' them womens said that Hispanics never get
 >abducted? Well, was not Lonnie a Hispanic?

 >Cogito, ergo ...
 >
 >Another case solved by J. Jaime Gesundt, and not a whisper
 >of swamp gas.

 >J. Jaime Gesundt, Ph.D., MBA, M.O.U.S.E, Coming loud.

There's enough gas and hot air on this subject to fill a
Goodyear - Blimp that is.

- GT McCoy





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                       Socorro: The Zamora 'Insignia'

From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net>
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 1999 08:28:42 -0700
Fwd Date: Sat, 21 Aug 1999 16:41:02 -0400
Subject: Socorro: The Zamora 'Insignia'


 >From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@connectmmic.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
 >Subject: Re: Socorro: The Zamora 'Insignia'
 >Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 22:20:08 -0700

 >From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
 >To: 02 - UFO UpDates Subscribers <":;"@connectmmic.net>
 >Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 1999 15:41 Fragment
 >Subject: UFO UpDate: Re: Socorro: The Zamora 'Insignia'

 >>Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 13:44:00 -0400
 >>From: Andy Roberts <Brigantia@compuserve.com>
 >>Subject: Socorro: The Zamora 'Insignia'
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>

 >>>Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 21:53:14 -0300
 >>>From: Donald Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
 >>>To: updates@globalserve.net
 >>>Subject: Re: Socorro: The Zamora 'Insignia'

 ><snip>

 >>With any UFO case it's perfectly reasonable (before you all
 >>start yipping) -nay, essential - to fit any relevant parts of
 >>the sighting to phenomena we already know exist. Which in this
 >>case is why the balloon theory is perfectly feasible.

 >My explanation of the Socorro case...

 >I believe Zamora saw a flying tatooed elephant experiencing an
 >intestinal disorder known as meteorism. I leave to your
 >imagination (pun intended) how some huge fart got ignited.

 >This explanation - which I hereby copyright - covers every angle
 >of Zamora's sighting: the size of the thing, the roar, the
 >exhaust. You name it.

 >The landing marks? Come on: you can't winch up a crashed
 >elephant into thin air. I propose four 30 foot beams chained
 >together by amateurs to lift the dead elephant and put it in the
 >back of a truck.

 >Fits the bill.

 >>Oh, alright, I'm a pelicanist and proud!

 >What exactly do you pride yourself in?

 >Honesty?

 >Coherence?

 >Pelicanism?

Dear Serge:

I wrote this really nice repartee about an hour ago, but my
machine threw a fit. Nevertheless, the gist was:

1) As interesting as a balloon solution for the Zamora events
may have seemed, it just doesn't wash. Personally, I am keeping
the Zamora sighting listed with the same ratings they had for a
long long time.

2) When a "pelicanization" becomes really really absurd, as has
NOT yet happened here, I would like to offer another word: "
Penguinization ".

Penguins are not only cute, comical and suicidally devoted to
their young, they are also better swimmers than the fish they
eat ( obviously! ).

They have one big limitation. Zoos aside, they only live in the
polar extremes of the Southern Hemisphere.

I therefore suggest that the term " Penguinization ", with all
its variants, be reserved for UFO explanations which not only
are at variance with most of the the facts [ like some recent
Socorro arguments ], but which are so bone-headedly stupid as to
make the Hollow-Earth types cluck their tongues and roll their
eyes..

With (mostly) good intentions:

- Larry Hatch





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                     Re: Socorro: The Zamora 'Insignia'

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 1999 13:14:58 EDT
Fwd Date: Sat, 21 Aug 1999 16:52:11 -0400
Subject: Re: Socorro: The Zamora 'Insignia'


 >From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@connectmmic.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
 >Subject: Re: Socorro: The Zamora 'Insignia'
 >Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 22:20:08 -0700

 >From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
 >To: 02 - UFO UpDates Subscribers <":;"@connectmmic.net>
 >Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 1999 15:41 Fragment
 >Subject: UFO UpDate: Re: Socorro: The Zamora 'Insignia'

 >>Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 13:44:00 -0400
 >>From: Andy Roberts <Brigantia@compuserve.com>
 >>Subject: Socorro: The Zamora 'Insignia'
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>

 >>>Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 21:53:14 -0300
 >>>From: Donald Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
 >>>To: updates@globalserve.net
 >>>Subject: Re: Socorro: The Zamora 'Insignia'

 ><snip>

 >>With any UFO case it's perfectly reasonable (before you all
 >>start yipping) -nay, essential - to fit any relevant parts of
 >>the sighting to phenomena we already know exist. Which in this
 >>case is why the balloon theory is perfectly feasible.

 >My explanation of the Socorro case...

 >I believe Zamora saw a flying tatooed elephant experiencing an
 >intestinal disorder known as meteorism.  I leave to your
 >imagination (pun intended) how some huge fart got ignited.

 >This explanation - which I hereby copyright - covers every angle
 >of Zamora's sighting: the size of the thing, the roar, the
 >exhaust.  You name it.

 >The landing marks? Come on: you can't winch up a crashed
 >elephant into thin air.  I propose four 30 foot beams chained
 >together by amateurs to lift the dead elephant and put it in the
 >back of a truck.

 >Fits the bill.

 >>Oh, alright, I'm a pelicanist and proud!

 >What exactly do you pride yourself in?

 >Honesty?

 >Coherence?

 >Pelicanism?

Serge, I hereby confer upon yous, the degree of honorary Ph.D.
The reason? For being the smartest sumgun on this list. And the
funniest.

I hereby hang up my Gripple and sex toys and will them to you.

God bless you, Serge.
I am defeated.
I am mortified.
I am in shame.
I am finished.

I am also laughing my whatsit off.






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                                UFO Ridicule

From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 1999 20:37:33 +0100
Fwd Date: Sat, 21 Aug 1999 19:57:21 -0400
Subject: UFO Ridicule


If ebk and the List will indulge me, I'd like to come back to a
topic which was being discussed before those British subscribers
who use Demon Internet were temporarily evicted from the List by
their ISP, for reasons which are still not entirely clear.

Jerome Clark was insistent that psycho-socially oriented
ufologists and "pelicanists" (delightful phrase which we must
all use as much as possible) were inclined to adopt sceptical
positions because they feared ridicule from some ill-defined
establishment if people started to think that they might believe
in the objective existence of a hitherto unknown physical
phenomenon - possibly extraterrestrial - as a source of UFO
reports.

Now I can understand that some people, largely tenured
academicians, could feel that their UFO research might be seen,
by some people in authority over them, to reflect badly on their
academic position. Whatever the rights and wrongs of the case,
John Mack is an obvious example here.

I can also see that some UFO witnesses, with no other links into
the field, might be concerned what neighbours and employers
might think if their experiences became subject to general
gossip and sensational reporting.

What I cannot see is why experienced, long-time ufologists,
whose employment has no possible connection to ufology (to pick
an example at random, librarians employed by a local council),
who have no particular connection to the academic world, and who
couldn't give a bugger what their casual aquaintances might
think of their interest in UFOs (or indeed, whose casual
aquaintances are equally unlikely to be concerned) should be so
overcome by the fear of ridicule.

I would be interested to hear from any ufologists who *have*
been so overcome by the chill winds of ridicule that they have
moved to a public position of "ridicule avoidance" as described
by Jerome Clark. I fully understand that they might not wish to
discuss this on the List, but if they were to reply privately to
my e-mail address I will naturally keep their names
confidential.

The other possibility, of course, is that there is no such fear
of ridicule amongst ufologists generally, apart from in the
specific circumstance I mention above, that sceptical ufologists
have arrived at their sceptical positions through a study of the
evidence they have come across, and that Jerome Clark is talking
through his hat.






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                     Re: UFO Report Reveals Rifts At CIA

From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 1999 20:11:42 +0100
Fwd Date: Sat, 21 Aug 1999 19:57:21 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO Report Reveals Rifts At CIA


 >Source: Jeff Renses 'Sightings' Site

 >http://www.sightings.com/ufo4/ciaufo.htm

 >UFO Report Reveals Rifts At CIA
 >by Michael Smith
 >The Daily Telegraph

<lots snipped>

 >In 1955, claims by two elderly sisters that they had
 >contact with UFOs attracted widespread publicity. A CIA agent
 >describing himself as an air officer spoke to them and reported
 >that he appeared to have stumbled upon a scene from Arsenic and
 >Old Lace. Analysis of a "code" that the women believed aliens
 >were using to make contact with them while they listened to
 >their favorite radio program showed it was Morse from a U.S.
 >radio station.

Does anybody have the slightest idea what case is being referred





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                  Re: Abductions: A Funny Thing Happened...

From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net>
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 1999 16:53:50 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 21 Aug 1999 20:09:26 -0400
Subject: Re: Abductions: A Funny Thing Happened...

 >Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 20:30:36 -0500
 >To: updates@globalserve.net
 >From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
 >Subject: Abductions: A Funny Thing Happened...

 >Abductions: A Funny Thing Happened on the Way to the Millennium

 >List,

 >One aspect of the UFO phenomenon I occasionally think about (to
 >the chagrin of some) is the abduction angle.

Hi Dennis,

Abduction "angle"(?) Your choice of words is something I always
pay attention to Sasquatch. Do you?

Actually, I am not 'chagrinned' at all. There's an awful lot to
be said for the infrequency of your visits to the subject of UFO
abduction. :)

I also have tickets to hear a dissertation on theoretical
physics that is being given by Sylvester Stallone. <lol>

<snip>

 >So how is it, given these two highways headed in apparently
 >opposite directions, that we can claim more close encounters
 >than ever with little corroborating evidence to back it up, when
 >our sensors have multiplied many times over?

Dennis, those "sensors" that you mention are mostly the property
of the very folks being blamed for the cover-up! Proliferation
of detection technology aside, it's very expensive stuff to own
and operate. Excluding FAA/ground control radars I'll wager that
the rest of that sophisticated equipment belongs to military,
NASA, and intelligence operations.

Just how much "public access" do you assume we have to such
data? I wouldn't be at all surprised to find the -actual- radar
data (re: UFOs) that has been kept hidden over the years (for
reasons of "National security") to multiply by 100 fold should
such records ever enter the public domain.

They don't ever tell us spit Dennis. Unless we all gang up on
'em and demand it. Getting any information out of those guys is
just like pulling teeth. Much less any data that would be of a
'sensitive' nature/subject.

Catch 22. Why would the guys who are trying to keep it a "gray
area" (pun intended) have been releasing the very scientific
proof that we would need to prove it all along? You assume we
would automatically know if such data existed. That's naive.

 >Read between the lines (MJ-12's job must be getting harder by
 >the minute, requiring a vast infusion of personnel to maintain
 >the coverup, etc).

All you would have to do to recruit people who would be loyal
and maintain security would be to convince them that they would
be making their sacrifice for the benefit of all mankind. Appeal
to their love of family, and country/patriotism. Would probably
be easy for them to recruit a lot of basically good people
thatta way.

If you don't think it's possible to maintain secrecy/security
while simultaneously maintaining a large and diverse workforce,
just reread your Oppenheimer/Manhattan Project histories. It's
not only do-able, it's been done. And quite successfully too I
might add.  :)

BTW, don't hold your breath waiting for Uncle Sham to release
any recon data it may possess on UFOs, (that it may have
acquired via it's own detection equipment! ) You'd be dead and
blue long before that happens. <Hee-Haw>)

Peace,

John Velez

________________________________________________
                                  jvif@spacelab.net
                     ABDUCTION INFORMATION CENTER
                             http://www.if-aic.com/
  "Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind."
________________________________________________






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                  CIA Said To Rue Its Longterm UFO Cover-Up

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 1999 12:29:38 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 21 Aug 1999 12:29:38 -0400
Subject: CIA Said To Rue Its Longterm UFO Cover-Up


Source: Space.com

http://www.space.com/sciencefiction/phenomena/cia_report_818.html


CIA Said To Rue Its Longterm UFO Cover-Up

by

Robert Scott Martin
Staff Writer
posted: 05:14 pm ET
18 August 1999

Central Intelligence Agency <http://www.cia.gov/>

CIA's Role in the Study of UFOs, 1947-90
<http://www.odci.gov/csi/studies/97unclas/ufo.html>


Not only has the U.S. Central Intelligence Agency admitted its
role in trying to "correct" public opinion about UFOs over the
last half century, it now believes the policy caused "major
problems" in dealing with the public.

In an internal report entitled "CIA's Role in the Study of UFOs,
1947-90," agency historian Gerald K. Haines portrayed the CIA as
consistently and deliberately working to suppress reports of
unidentified aerial phenomena since modern UFO sightings began
with the Kenneth Arnold case of 1947.

Still, even in a paper filled with covert attempts on the part
of both the CIA and the Air Force to "persuade the public that
UFOs were not extraordinary," Haines himself continued the
suppressive policy, perhaps unconsciously, by writing that the
CIA "paid only limited and peripheral attention to the
phenomena" since the early 1950s.

This tension in the report, written at the request of CIA
Director R. James Woolsey in 1997, is a telling reflection of
the government agency's troubled broader relationship with UFO
sightings and literature. Haines' history is studded with
depictions of the CIA not only repressing UFO reports and
reviewing recommendations that agents monitor UFO clubs for
subversive activities, but also trying to hide its own interest
in the matter.

Indeed, the struggle to "carefully restrict" and "forbid" any
public awareness of CIA involvement in UFO investigations
eclipses the actual investigations as the major thrust of the
agency's UFO efforts. Even though the agency had accepted the
Air Force's conclusion that there was only "a remote
possibility" that UFOs were interplanetary aircraft as early as
1952, investigations of the "massive buildup of sightings" went
on, just in case.

Concealment of CIA interest

However, after 1953, when negative findings from a civilian
panel motivated the CIA to "put the entire issue of UFOs on the
back burner" entirely, Haines said the agency became almost
exclusively concerned with covering up its own involvement in
the world of unidentified flying objects.

This aggressive policy of public non-involvement was important
to the CIA for many reasons. First, a number of agency officials
and study groups over the years urged the CIA to "conceal its
interest" because such attention would seem to officially
sanction to the existence of UFOs. Although the agency itself,
like the Air Force, believed the chance of flying saucers posing
a direct threat was minimal, the fear that even unfounded public
belief in the phenomenon, if encouraged by government interest,
could be enough to "touch off mass hysteria and panic."

Particularly in the 1950s, the Cold War heightened this somewhat
obsessive concern with hiding any evidence of the CIA's
involvement, said Haines. Although the agency's UFO study group
did not see any security threat emerging directly out of flying
saucers themselves, even if they actually existed, the CIA was
deeply worried by the possibility that Soviet agents could use
UFOs as "a possible psychological warfare tool" or cloak a more
Earthly attack with fake UFO reports.

Tantalizingly, Haines also noted that at least one CIA Director,
Walter Bedell Smith, "wanted to know what use could be made of
the UFO phenomenon in connection with US psychological warfare
efforts." The report does not mention whether the agency
followed up on this opportunity to manipulate UFO reports in a
more sophisticated manner for its own purposes.

As the 1950s wore on, the CIA became even less interested in
UFOs in themselves and more concerned with covering up its own
early involvement with the phenomenon. In 1955, only the
possibility that the Soviets would eventually develop a flying
saucer of their own kept the investigations from ending
completely.

Meanwhile, ironically, the CIA had built its own "unidentified
flying object," the U-2 surveillance aircraft, and sightings of
these planes needed to be kept out of the media. According to
Haines, Air Force investigators were "careful not to reveal the
true cause" of U-2 sightings. However, having no other means of
explaining the encounters, it is likely the field agents were
forced either to lie or retreat into a suspicious silence.

The return of the repressed

Haines argues that this suspicious silence was not a good
strategy for the agency, but the established need for secrecy
left the CIA with little choice while fervor over the
government's role in "covering up" UFO information grew. Even
though the agency itself "had a declining interest in UFO cases"
by the late 1950s, it was still spending considerable resources
looking out for "the more sensational UFO reports and flaps" in
order to suppress them.

Ultimately, this policy backfired by highlighting the CIA's role
in investigation -- or the ominous cover-up thereof -- only to
"add fuel to the growing mystery surrounding UFOs." UFO
researchers blamed the agency for starting the UFO flap of the
1950s for psychological warfare purposes, and the idea proved so
persuasive that even CIA Director Stansfield Turner asked his
staff whether the agency was "in UFOs" after reading a 1979 New
York Times article.

At the end, Haines concluded, the tactics of silence and
repression were a failure. "The UFO issue probably will not go
away soon, no matter what the agency does or says. The belief
that we are not alone in the universe is too emotionally
appealing and the distrust of our government is too pervasive to
make the issue amenable to traditional scientific studies of
rational explanation and evidence."

Indeed, much of that "distrust" was the CIA's own doing, and the
benefits appear to have been limited. Despite the agency's best
efforts to keep UFO reports out of the media, according to
Haines, "an extraordinary 95 percent of all Americans have at
least heard or read something about UFOs, and 57 percent believe
they are real."







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   Aug > Aug 22

                  'Doorway Amnesia' & Modern Day Abductees?

From: Roy Hale <roy.hale@virgin.net>
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 1999 15:13:38 +0100
Fwd Date: Sun, 22 Aug 1999 11:31:04 -0400
Subject: 'Doorway Amnesia' & Modern Day Abductees?


Hi People,

Flicking through my copy of 'The complete Book of UFOs An
Investigation into Alien Contacts and Encounters, Jenny Randles
& Peter Hough.

I came across this paragraph, Page 145: Taken from The Villas
Boas case 5th October 1957.

"Villas Boas remembered vividly being carried up a ramp and into
the craft, while modern Abductees suffer 'Doorway Amnesia' and
have no recollection, even under hypnosis, of how they got
inside."

If the Abduction researchers on this list could enlighten us if
this is the case with modern day Abductees. Does the memory of
entering the craft always get wiped? Is this what you have found





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   Aug > Aug 22

                                     Re:

From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 1999 22:06:30 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 22 Aug 1999 11:33:52 -0400
Subject: Re:


 >Date: Sat, 21 Aug 1999 16:53:50 -0400
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
 >From: John <jvif@spacelab.net>
 >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Abductions: A Funny Thing Happened...


<Giant snip>

 >BTW, don't hold your breath waiting for Uncle Sham to release
 >any recon data it may possess on UFOs, (that it may have
 >acquired via it's own detection equipment! ) You'd be dead and
 >blue long before that happens. <Hee-Haw>)

 >Peace,

 >John Velez


John,

Glad to see you're alive and well! Peace to you, too!

A more measured response to follow manana or the day after. Or
the day after that. Right now us South Texans, Sasquatch
included, are battening down the hatches in anticipation of
Hurricane Bret.

Yee haw!






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   Aug > Aug 22

             'Strange Days...Indeed' - Tonight: Don Berliner 0f

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 1999 16:26:54 -0400
Fwd Date: Sun, 22 Aug 1999 16:26:54 -0400
Subject: 'Strange Days...Indeed' - Tonight: Don Berliner 0f




From: UFO UpDates - Toronto

On 'Strange Days... Indeed' tonight, Jan Aldrich Co-ordinator of
Project 1947 and Moderator of Project 1947 the E-Mail List.

Discussion points will probably be the Haines' CIA report which has
surfaced again in the press and a little bit about the UFO History
Workshop held in Chicago last May.  Perhaps we will get on to the
Arnold and Socorro cases, also.

Join co-host Jonn Kares and I along with Jan on 'Strange
Days...Indeed' tonight.

The program starts at 11:00pm EST on

1010 CFRB AM - 50,000 watts 'Clear-Channel'

6070khz Shortwave

and you can listen via Media Player at:

www.cfrb.com/

You'll need to access the site using Internet Explorer since
Media Player seems to choke using any version of Netscape -
thanks Mr. Bill!


To call the program 'live', dial:

On-Air    416-872-1010
           1-800-561-CFRB [all over North America]
           *TALK [local mobiles]







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   Aug > Aug 22

               'Strange Days...Indeed' - Tonight: Jan Aldrich

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 1999 16:29:35 -0400
Fwd Date: Sun, 22 Aug 1999 16:29:35 -0400
Subject: 'Strange Days...Indeed' - Tonight: Jan Aldrich




From: UFO UpDates - Toronto

On 'Strange Days... Indeed' tonight, Jan Aldrich Co-ordinator of
Project 1947 and Moderator of Project 1947 the E-Mail List.

Discussion points will probably be the Haines' CIA report which has
surfaced again in the press and a little bit about the UFO History
Workshop held in Chicago last May.  Perhaps we will get on to the
Arnold and Socorro cases, also.

Join co-host Jonn Kares and I along with Jan on 'Strange
Days...Indeed' tonight.

The program starts at 11:00pm EST on

1010 CFRB AM - 50,000 watts 'Clear-Channel'

6070khz Shortwave

and you can listen via Media Player at:

www.cfrb.com/

You'll need to access the site using Internet Explorer since
Media Player seems to choke using any version of Netscape -
thanks Mr. Bill!


To call the program 'live', dial:

On-Air    416-872-1010
           1-800-561-CFRB [all over North America]
           *TALK [local mobiles]







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   Aug > Aug 22

                  Re: Abductions: A Funny Thing Happened...

From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 1999 22:06:30 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 22 Aug 1999 16:31:47 -0400
Subject: Re: Abductions: A Funny Thing Happened...


 >Date: Sat, 21 Aug 1999 16:53:50 -0400
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
 >From: John <jvif@spacelab.net>
 >Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Abductions: A Funny Thing Happened...


<Giant snip>

 >BTW, don't hold your breath waiting for Uncle Sham to release
 >any recon data it may possess on UFOs, (that it may have
 >acquired via it's own detection equipment! ) You'd be dead and
 >blue long before that happens. <Hee-Haw>)

 >Peace,

 >John Velez


John,

Glad to see you're alive and well! Peace to you, too!

A more measured response to follow manana or the day after. Or
the day after that. Right now us South Texans, Sasquatch
included, are battening down the hatches in anticipation of
Hurricane Bret.






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   Aug > Aug 22

               'Strange Days...Indeed' - Tonight: Jan Aldrich

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 1999 18:29:19 -0400
Fwd Date: Sun, 22 Aug 1999 18:29:19 -0400
Subject: 'Strange Days...Indeed' - Tonight: Jan Aldrich




From: UFO UpDates - Toronto

On 'Strange Days... Indeed' tonight, Jan Aldrich Co-ordinator of
Project 1947 and Moderator of Project 1947 the E-Mail List.

Discussion points will probably be the Haines' CIA report which has
surfaced again in the press and a little bit about the UFO History
Workshop held in Chicago last May.  Perhaps we will get on to the
Arnold and Socorro cases, also.

Join co-host Jonn Kares and I along with Jan on 'Strange
Days...Indeed' tonight.

The program starts at 11:00pm EST on

1010 CFRB AM - 50,000 watts 'Clear-Channel'

6070khz Shortwave

and you can listen via Media Player at:

www.cfrb.com/

You'll need to access the site using Internet Explorer since
Media Player seems to choke using any version of Netscape -
thanks Mr. Bill!


To call the program 'live', dial:

On-Air    416-872-1010
           1-800-561-CFRB [all over North America]
           *TALK [local mobiles]







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   Aug > Aug 23

                                     FYI

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 11:07:58 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 11:07:58 -0400
Subject: FYI

Server/System/Software problems have created difficulties
for the past couple of weeks.

This message is to check current configurations between
here and your screens.

No digital response is necessary - however a quietly uttered
sympathetic/empathetic "Aw!" will likely be felt here. <G>

ebk






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   Aug > Aug 23

                              Re: UFO Ridicule

From: Michel M. Deschamps <ufoman@ican. net>
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 1999 00:07:09 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 11:51:52 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO Ridicule


 >Date: Sat, 21 Aug 1999 20:37:33 +0100
 >To: updates@globalserve. net
 >From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia. demon. co. uk>
 >Subject: UFO Ridicule

 >If ebk and the List will indulge me, I'd like to come back to a
 >topic which was being discussed before those British subscribers
 >who use Demon Internet were temporarily evicted from the List by
 >their ISP, for reasons which are still not entirely clear.

 >Jerome Clark was insistent that psycho-socially oriented
 >ufologists and "pelicanists" (delightful phrase which we must
 >all use as much as possible) were inclined to adopt sceptical
 >positions because they feared ridicule from some ill-defined
 >establishment if people started to think that they might believe
 >in the objective existence of a hitherto unknown physical
 >phenomenon - possibly extraterrestrial - as a source of UFO
 >reports.

 >Now I can understand that some people, largely tenured
 >academicians, could feel that their UFO research might be seen,
 >by some people in authority over them, to reflect badly on their
 >academic position. Whatever the rights and wrongs of the case,
 >John Mack is an obvious example here.

 >I can also see that some UFO witnesses, with no other links into
 >the field, might be concerned what neighbours and employers
 >might think if their experiences became subject to general
 >gossip and sensational reporting.

 >What I cannot see is why experienced, long-time ufologists,
 >whose employment has no possible connection to ufology (to pick
 >an example at random, librarians employed by a local council),
 >who have no particular connection to the academic world, and who
 >couldn't give a bugger what their casual aquaintances might
 >think of their interest in UFOs (or indeed, whose casual
 >aquaintances are equally unlikely to be concerned) should be so
 >overcome by the fear of ridicule.

 >I would be interested to hear from any ufologists who *have*
 >been so overcome by the chill winds of ridicule that they have
 >moved to a public position of "ridicule avoidance" as described
 >by Jerome Clark. I fully understand that they might not wish to
 >discuss this on the List, but if they were to reply privately to
 >my e-mail address I will naturally keep their names
 >confidential.

 >The other possibility, of course, is that there is no such fear
 >of ridicule amongst ufologists generally, apart from in the
 >specific circumstance I mention above, that sceptical ufologists
 >have arrived at their sceptical positions through a study of the
 >evidence they have come across, and that Jerome Clark is talking
 >through his hat.

Dear John,

I'm one of those Ufologists who are in a unique position to talk
about UFOs because I myself, have had 14 separate sightings
since 1974. I'm 35 years old, have been MUFON's Provincial
Section Director for Sudbury, Ontario, Canada since 1991, and my
specialty is researching newspaper archives for UFO clippings.
Since this has to do with history, I therefore consider myself a
UFO historian, more specifically with the history of UFO
sightings in Northern Ontario.

I was only afraid of ridicule when it took me two days to report
my second sighting to the local police in October 1990. They,
of course, don't do anything about these reports but did keep me
on the line long enough for them to determine whether or not I
was a nutcase. Since then, I've never been afraid of the
ridicule, although I tend to receive a lot of it from skeptical
friends of mine and the media, namely the local press and
television reporters.

I believe it's time the tables were turned. UFO eyewitnesses
should realize that there are a lot more believers/knowers out
there than they might think. But they don't know that, and this
makes it difficult for these people to come forward with
confidence and speak out without being afraid of people calling
them crazy or worse.

Education is the key.

Michel M. Deschamps
MUFON Provincial Section Director for Sudbury, Ontario,
Canada & UFO Researcher/Historian.






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   Aug > Aug 23

              CPR-Canada News: Circle Reported Near Dease Lake,

From: Paul Anderson - TMP / CPR-Canada <psa@direct.ca>
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 1999 21:51:23 -0800
Fwd Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 13:50:05 -0400
Subject: CPR-Canada News: Circle Reported Near Dease Lake,



CPR-Canada News
News and Updates from Circles Phenomenon Research Canada

http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Cavern/3310


Circle Reported Near Dease Lake, British Columbia


August 21, 1999

_____________________________


Preliminary Report - August 21

Another circle report, the fourth so far this year.

Report received August 19, from Jeff Otto, via David Pengilly of
UFO*BC. After initial e-mail correspondence, I spoke to Jeff this
evening about what he saw.

Single circle in wild grass, about 90 km south of Dease Lake,
in northern BC, about 300 km from the BC / Yukon border. Close to
Ealve Lake. Approximately 100 feet diametre. Spotted by Jeff
at about 5:00 am on August 7 while driving north to Dease Lake
along the right hand side of the Junction 37 Highway. Very remote
location. Circle is reportedly flattened down very clearly among
the standing plants.

Further details when available.

Paul Anderson
Director
CPR-Canada

_____________________________


Circle Phenomena in Canada Report Archive 1999:

http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Cavern/3310/1999.html

A reminder for all Canadian subscribers / readers - your
assistance is welcome and needed - ANY reports of other
possible circles this year, please do let us know as soon as
possible! See Reporting and Field Research Guidelines on the
web site for more information:

http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Cavern/3310/reporting.html

_____________________________


CPR-Canada News is the e-mail update service of
Circles Phenomenon Research Canada, and is published
periodically or as breaking news develops, with the
latest news and information and is available free by
subscription; to be added to or removed from the mailing
list, send your request, including "subscribe CPR-Canada
News" or "unsubscribe CPR-Canada News" and e-mail
address to:

psa@direct.c

CPR-Canada welcomes your reports and submissions.
Forward all correspondence to:


CIRCLES PHENOMENON RESEARCH CANADA
Circles Phenomenon Research International

Main Office

Suite 202 - 2086 West 2nd Avenue
Vancouver, BC  V6J 1J4  Canada
Tel / Fax: 604.731.8522
E-Mail: psa@direct.ca
Web: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Cavern/3310


� Circles Phenomenon Research Canada, 1999







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                  Re: Abductions: A Funny Thing Happened...

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 1999 00:41:09 EDT
Fwd Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 13:47:47 -0400
Subject: Re: Abductions: A Funny Thing Happened...


 >Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 20:30:36 -0500
 >To: updates@globalserve.net
 >From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
 >Subject: Abductions: A Funny Thing Happened...

 >Abductions: A Funny Thing Happened on the Way to the Millennium

 >List,

 >One aspect of the UFO phenomenon I occasionally think about (to
 >the chagrin of some) is the abduction angle.

 >For all practical intent & purposes it began in 1961, with the
 >Betty & Barney Hill experience, in the same way that the UFO
 >phenomenon itself can be said to begin with the 1947 Arnold
 >sighting: i.e., yes, earlier precedents (such as the 1957
 >Villas-Boas case) can be found, but we all know what we're
 >talking about here.

A matter of opinion.

 >The point is this: in the last 38 years since the Hill event
 >(can we round it off to an even 40?), two separate lines of
 >thought have taken exponentially opposite tangents of evidence,
 >or, if you prefer, indication.

A vector has magnitude and direction.  I once knew a vector. He
was my friend.  You are no vector.  You see, you have magnitude,
but no direction.  At least no indicated direction.

 >One the one hand, we're told by abductionoligists that
 >abductions now number in the millions.

They may.

 >On the other hand, the number of surveillance systems under
 >civilian and scientific control has also exploded exponentially
 >during the same period. Think back 40 years ago and compare that
 >day's technology to today's, 1961 NASA to 1999 NASA. The
 >personal computer, never mind global positioning satellites, and
 >civilian "spy" satellites weren't even a gleam in Blue Book's
 >eye. The number of civilian air traffic controllers and radar
 >systems in operation worldwide has probably multiplied by at
 >least a factor of four, if not eight or twelve. As of today, if
 >you want, you can even enlist your own personal desktop computer
 >in SETI -- the Search for Extraterrestrial Intelligence. Yet
 >classic UFO sightings don't seem to have kept pace with claims,
 >allegations, or extrapolations of UFO abductions.

Maybe there is a definite difference in their technology vs.
ours?

 >So how is it, given these two highways headed in apparently
 >opposite directions, that we can claim more close encounters
 >than ever with little corroborating evidence to back it up, when
 >our sensors have multiplied many times over?

Well, for one thing, you assume (and we all know what happens
when one assumes) that the corroborating evidence to which some
adhere, is not corroborating evidence to some others; like you,
for instance.

Evidence is offered and you reject it.  So therefor there is no
evidence. Good thinking.

 >Read between the lines (MJ-12's job must be getting harder by
 >the minute, requiring a vast infusion of personnel to maintain
 >the coverup, etc).Talk amongst yourselves. Get back to me.

 >Dennis Stacy
 >http://www.anomalist.com

Dear Mr. Menace;

 >Talk amongst yourselves.

We did.

 >Get back to me.

Ummm.... why assume it's worth the effort?

It isn't.  Although I must admit it's cathartic and lots of fun.

I'll say this much.  You certainly got Klass.

J. Jaime Gesundt, researcher, philosopher and mean spirited when
it comes to people with closed minds.  Why?  Because sometimes
those minds are so shut tight, that there is some concern as to
whether there is even one in there at all!

"And what's a sweetheart like you, doin' in a dump like this?"
(Dylan)





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                      Re: 'New?' FBI memo about Roswell

From: Neil Morris <neil@adm1.ph.man.ac.uk>
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 1999 10:03:35 -0700
Fwd Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 13:58:02 -0400
Subject: Re: 'New?' FBI memo about Roswell


 >From: Michel M. Deschamps <ufoman@ican.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
 >Subject: Re: 'New?' FBI memo about Roswell
 >Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 02:27:29 -0400

 >>From: Henny van der Pluijm <hvdp@worldonline.nl>
 >>Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 04:35:02 +0200 (MET DST)
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
 >>Subject: 'New?' FBI memo about Roswell

 >>Found this at http://www.space.com/area51/websightings_812.html

 >>For old-school UFOlogists, the Paranormal News published an FBI
 >>memo concerning the 1947 Roswell object and 12 pages of Project

<snip>

 >>reflector, but that telephone conversation between their office
 >>and Wright Field had not borne out this belief."

 >>Is this new?

 >No, the document is not new.

 >I found it amongst the 575 documents I purchased from The Fund
 >For UFO Research.  And it is also available on the FBI website,
 >under Unusual Phenomena.

 >Stanton Friedman also mentioned this document a few years ago.
 >Apparently, it is the cover story that was later given to the
 >public and the press.

 >Michel M. Deschamps
 >MUFON's Provincial Section Director for Sudbury,
 >Ontario, Canada


FWIW as I read it, it's _not_ the cover story but a strong hint
as to what _actually_ happend that evening.

It does _totally_ support the "Cover Story" scenario  because of
the facts given being  _totally_ out of place in the timeline in
view of what was else being _fed_ to the news media that night.

This _URGENT_ teletype was sent out at 6.17pm FW time YET at
_5.30pm_ FW time, 45mins _before_, Maj Kirton of the the
Intellegence Office of the FWAAF was informing a reporter for
the Dallas Morning News that the debris was that of a High
Altitude Weather Balloon, nothing to make a fuss over, no need
to fly it on to WF, end of story. Please also note this was 1hr
_before_ Irving Newton's ID of the debris was sent out on the AP
wire (6.30pm FW) AND 30 mins _before_ Newton even came ON
DUTY(6.00pm FW).

To cap it all Kirton was identified as the AF contact who gave
the information in the teletype to the FBI Dallas office,
presumably shortly before the teletype was sent, after all it
was marked URGENT, and I doubt the FBI would sit on this info
for very long. So, 5.30pm the debris was a mundane Weather
Balloon for the press, and stopping at Fort Worth AAF yet for
the FBI at aprox 6.00pm AND reported by the self same Maj Kirton
"telephonic conversation" with the techie's at WF "had not borne
out that belief" ie, it _wasn't_ 'mundane debris' and it _was_
being flown on to Wright Field!. Yet at 6.30pm on the AP Wire,
Irving Newton says again it'a a mundane Weather Balloon. Later
that evening, radio reporter Joe Wilson in Chicago stated he had
spoken shortly before the broadcast with officials at Wright
Field and they were _still_ _awaiting_ the debris arrival.
Perhaps FWAAF hadn't told them it was just a weather balloon and
wouldn't be coming?.

Thomas Dubose plainly stated the Weather Balloon story was a
cover given under order of Gen McMullen to "get the press off
the AF's back", this single piece of evidence, the FBI teletype,
when viewed in context with all the other information coming out
of the AF for public consumtion seems clearly to say that is
_exactly_ what happened.

There's lots'a holes in the Fort Worth end of Roswell and yet
still more to come out.

Neil.

-------------------------------------------------------
                      Neil Morris@Home.

Email:             Neil@adm1.ph.man.ac.uk

Web Site:         Roswell - Alien Autopsy
                   http://adm2.ph.man.ac.uk/
                  The Fort Worth Photographs
                http://adm2.ph.man.ac.uk/ftw-pics/





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   Aug > Aug 23

                         UFO Over Cubatao, Sao Paulo

From: Thiago Ticchetti <thiagolt@opengate.com.br>
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 1999 11:41:23 -0300
Fwd Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 14:02:29 -0400
Subject: UFO Over Cubatao, Sao Paulo


Dear fellas,

On August, 21, around 12:58 Am, Mr. Roberto Rabelo saw a huge
UFO over the city of Cubatao, So Paulo.

He told that when he arrived at the ETA (Water Treatment
Estation), and there were 3 others fellas watching the
phenomenom.

"It was aorund 12:58 Am, dawn of August 21, and I looked to the
north and there was a UFO at a low altitude".

"One of the operators sad that it should be a short-circuit in a
near energy tower. Then we ascended the tower and realized that
thing was not convencional. The UFO was higher!".

"The UFO had a red light on top and 3 others red lights below
it, in  a triangular shape. The lights did not blink. Seconds
later, between the red lights, a lot of flashs, hundreds of
white flashs! Then all dissapeared".

"I estimated that the UFO was bigger than a soccer field".

Once again the UFO appeared, just like the first time, but this
time when the flash lights turned off, from the UFO another
object, like a yellow ball, came out, wich was in direction of
the COSIPA ( a food factory).

For the third time the UFO appeared again and this time they
were able to see a "shadow" behind it. Something triangular.

Finally the UFO was in east direction, passing over the COSIPA.

All the sighting lasted 20 minutes.


THIAGO LUIZ TICCHETTI
Diretor Do Departamento de Publicao e Traduo Especializadas
(DEPTE - EBE-ET / Brasilia-Brasil)
Director of the Publication Department and Specialized Translation
ICQ - 35119615
http://www.ebe-et.com.br
http://www.opengate.com.br/ebe-et

*********************** 2006 World Cup - Brazil *******************





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   Aug > Aug 23

                          BWW Media Alert 19990822

From: Bufo Calvin <BufoCalvin@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 1999 11:29:58 EDT
Fwd Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 14:03:40 -0400
Subject: BWW Media Alert 19990822


Bufo Calvin
P O Box 5231, Walnut Creek, CA 94596
Internet: BufoCalvin@aol.com
Website: <A
HREF="http://members.aol.com/bufocalvin">http://members.aol.com/bufocalvin<;/A>
<A HREF="http://www.onelist.com/subscribe/bwnl">Bufo's WEIRD NEWS LINKS</A>
<A
HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/redirect-home/bufosweirdworld">Link
to Amazon.com</A>
ALL RIGHTS RESERVED (permission is granted to reproduce or redistribute this
edition of Bufo's WEIRD WORLD provided that attribution is made to
http://members.aol.com/bufocalvin. It is good etiquette to check with
strangers before you e-mail them something. If you forward this, please make
sure it is clear that you are forwarding it).

August 22, 1999

The switch to Onelist as a server for this list has begun.  Existing
subscribers have not yet been switched over, and you will still be receiving
this via my mystery benefactor's list (just as you have been before).  People
who subscribed since last week will be getting this one via Onelist.  By next
week, I expect it to be complete.  Please do not switch yourself to Onelist
if you have already been receiving this�that might result in you getting it
twice.  If you have asked to drop (I don't think anyone did this week),
please let me know right away if you get it.  Thank you to the people who
responded with opinions about Onelist.  They were generally positive, and I
have had a good experience with the Bufo's WEIRD NEWS LINKS list.  One
correspondent was concerned about slow delivery: please let me know if you
have any unusual experiences with it.

Completely unconnected to that, next week's will be on an odd schedule, due
to my being off the computer for several days.  That has also shifted my
monthly appearance on NIGHTSEARCH, and I'm scheduled to be on today (see
radio).

As usual, let me know what you think at <A HREF="mailto:
bufocalvin@aol.com">BufoCalvin@aol.com</A>.

On to the listings: Times are generally Pacific.

LIVE EVENTS (conferences, lectures, etc.)

What: THE PROPHET'S CONFERENCE
When: August 27 through August 29
Where: Port Townsend, Washington
Who: An incredible group, including: John A. Keel (THE MOTHMAN PROPHECIES,
etc.), John Mack (pulitzer-prize winning Harvard psychiatrist supporter of
abductions), Joe Firmage (the "UFO CEO"), Dr. Stephen Greer (CSETI), and
several more big names
Contact Information: <A
HREF="http://www.greatmystery.org/prophets.html">http://www.greatmystery.org/p
rophets.html</A> or toll-free
1-888-777-5981.
I'm coincidentally going to be in Seattle that weekend, but I don't think
I'll make the conference.  Love to see Keel, though�he's one of the best
writers and thinkers in this field, even though (or perhaps because) he likes
to "rattle the cage".

RADIO

Eddie Middleton's very popular show in the South, Nightsearch, has a website
at <A HREF="http://listen.to/nightsearch">http://listen.to/nightsearch<;/A>.
Starting soon, the new website at <A
HREF="http://www.nightsearch.net/">http://www.nightsearch.net/<;/A>.
Unfortunately, no streaming audio. Sundays from 2:00 to 4:00 PM (Pacific).
The call-in line is 901-365-1430.

Sunday, August 22, 2:00 PM: Bufo Calvin (yes, me�in case you thought there
were two of us ;) ), monthly UFO/paranormal media report

Ken Dashow, THE EDGE OF REALITY, Sundays at 9:00 PM, Fridays at 5:00 PM.
Dashow is known for his sarcastic wit. <A
HREF="http://www.talkamerica.com/dashow.html">http://www.talkamerica.com/dasho
w.html</A> and <A
HREF="http://www.dashow.com/edge.html">http://www.dashow.com/edge.html<;/A>.
There is some dispute on these times. A correspondent tells me (thanks! If
you'd like to be acknowledged on the list, let me know) that it runs from
5:00 PM to 8:00 PM (Pacific...that's how times are generally listed here),
with a repeat from 8:00 PM to 11:00 PM on Saturdays.

Mike Jarmus, REALITY AND BEYOND, 7:00 PM Sundays, <A
HREF="http://spectrum.orn.com/omega.ram">http://spectrum.orn.com/omega.ram<;/A>
. Streaming audio available

Art Bell - DREAMLAND
Currently, the most popular talk show on this area. <A
HREF="http://www.artbell.com/">http://www.artbell.com/<;/A>. Live streaming
audio (and video) available.

Jeff Rense - SIGHTINGS
Jeff is well-versed on the topics, but likes to let the guests speak,
resulting in one of the best radio shows on these topics. You can hear Real
Audio of the show, and there are archives as well. Go to <A
HREF="http://www.sightings.com/">http://www.sightings.com/<;/A> for more
information. The show is on at 7:00 PM Pacific Monday through Friday, and
8:00 PM Pacific on Sunday. You can hear it anywhere through your computer.
Please note that Jeff also often covers topics which I do not consider
relevant to this list. To subscribe to the Jeff Rense Weekly E-news (which
includes articles and a complete guest listing), e-mail (subject: Subscribe)
<A HREF="mailto:jocelyn@dewittec.net">mailto:jocelyn@dewittec.net</A>.

Sunday, August 22, 8:00 PM, Michael Lindemann's weekly UFO/ET report; Peter
Davenport of the National UFO Reporting Center (repeat)
Tuesday, August 24, 7:00 PM, Graham Conway of the UFO*BC Canada Report
Wednesday, August 25, 7:00 PM, Michael Lindemann's weekly UFO/ET report
Thursday, August 26, 7:00 PM, Dr. Robert Wood and Ryan Wood on MJ-12 documents
Friday, August 27, 7:00 PM, Nancy Leder, Zetatalk

Paul Williams and Scott Carr: UFO DESK
This New York show has been around for years, but is now available on
streaming audio. The website is <A
HREF="http://www.escape.com/~paulw/ufodesk.html">http://www.escape.com/~paulw/
ufodesk.html</A>. It runs at 8:00 PM (Pacific) on Sundays.

Jeff Mishlove AND THE VIRTUAL UNIVERSITY
Webcast every weekday at 8:00 PM for two hours, with a repeat at 10:00 PM.
Webcast at <A
HREF="http://www.wisdomradio.com/">http://www.wisdomradio.com/<;/A>.

ERSKINE OVERNIGHT
Webcast 9:00 PM to Midnight with an immediate repeat at <A
HREF="http://www.talkamerica.com/">Talkamerica.com</A>.

TELEVISION

BBC WORLD (Europe) (GMT+1)

Sunday, August 22, 11:10 AM, THE END OF THE WORLD (includes UFO beliefs)
Sunday, August 22, 7:10 PM, THE END OF THE WORLD (includes UFO beliefs)

CHANNEL 5 (Europe) (GMT+1)

Sunday, August 22, 12:30 PM, ANIMAL X (big cats in England; the Beast of
Bodmin; giant squids; psychic animals)

CHANNEL 7 (Australia) (Time Zone Unknown)

Saturday, August 28, 1:30 AM, SIGHTINGS (episode unknown)

THE DISCOVERY CHANNEL (Australia) (Time Zone Unknown)

Sunday, August 22, 12:00 PM, ARTHUR C. CLARKE'S MYSTERIOUS UNIVERSE (episode
unknown)
Thursday, August 26, 8:00 PM, ARTHUR C. CLARKE'S MYSTERIOUS UNIVERSE (episode
unknown)
Friday, August 27, 9:00 AM, ARTHUR C. CLARKE'S MYSTERIOUS UNIVERSE (episode
unknown)
Sunday, August 29, 12:00 PM, ARTHUR C. CLARKE'S MYSTERIOUS UNIVERSE (episode
unknown)

THE DISCOVERY CHANNEL (Europe) (GMT+1)

Sunday, August 22, 11:45, DIVINE MAGIC (ghosts)
Monday, August 23, 10:25 AM, ARTHUR C. CLARKE'S WORLD OF STRANGE POWERS:
MESSAGES FROM THE DEAD
Monday, August 23, 11:45 AM, ARTHUR C. CLARKE'S MYSTERIOUS UNIVERSE: THE EVIL
EYE
Monday, August 23, 12:15 PM, ARTHUR C. CLARKE'S MYSTERIOUS UNIVERSE: SECRETS
OF ANCIENT WORLDS
Tuesday, August 24, 10:25 AM, ARTHUR C. CLARKE'S WORLD OF STRANGE POWERS: THE
ROOTS OF EVIL (curses)
Wednesday, August 25, 10:25 AM, ARTHUR C. CLARKE'S WORLD OF STRANGE POWERS:
METAL BENDING, MAGIC, AND MIND OVER MATTER

THE DISCOVERY CHANNEL (USA)

Thursday, August 26, 9:00 PM, SCIENCE MYSTERIES: MONSTERS OF THE LAKE
Friday, August 27, 12:00 AM, SCIENCE MYSTERIES: MONSTERS OF THE LAKE
Saturday, August 28, 5:00 PM, SCIENCE MYSTERIES: MONSTERS OF THE LAKE
Next Thursday, September 2, 10:00 PM, INTO THE UNKNOWN: STRANGE BEASTS
(mystery big cats in the UK; hairy biped in China)
Next Friday, September 3, 1:00 AM, INTO THE UNKNOWN: STRANGE BEASTS (mystery
big cats in the UK; hairy biped in China)


LOCAL TELEVISION (USA)

BEYOND THE UNEXPLAINED WITH JANET RUSSELL
Janet does get major guests on her show. Check with your local cable company
to see if it is cablecasting the show. Specific guest information not
currently available.
SUNDAYS Cablevision of Woodbury NY
CH 25/80/96 9:30PM
MONDAYS Cablevision of Riverhead NY
CH 27 10:00AM
Manhattan Neighborhood Network NY
CH 56 1:30AM
TUESDAYS Cablevision of Yorktown Heights NY
CH 34 8:30PM
Community TV of Sante Fe New Mexico
CH 8 8:30PM
WEDNESDAYS Gateway Access "12" SpringCreek NY
CH 12 8:30PM
Pac "8" TV of Los Alamos N.Mexico
CH8 4:00 PM
THURSDAY Cablevision of Hauppague NY
CH 25 5PM
LTV of Easthampton NY
CH 27 10:00 AM
FRIDAY Cablevision of Brookhaven NY
CH 99 9:30PM
PAC 8 of Los Alamos New Mexico
CH 8 9:00 PM
SATURDAY Cablevision of Westchester NY
CH 58/37 2:00 PM

PBS (USA)
Dates, times, and even content of shows seem to vary on different PBS
stations. These listings are for KQED in San Francisco. Check your local
station.

Sunday, August 22, 10:30 AM, PETS: PART OF THE FAMILY (includes a psychic)
Next Wednesday, September 1, 11:00 pM, GREAT DRIVES: HIGHWAY 93 (Graham
Greene in search of UFOs)

THE SCIENCE CHANNEL (USA)

New schedule again, since March 29, 1999.
Every day but Tuesday and Saturday, 9:00 AM, ARTHUR C. CLARKE (don't know
which one)
Every day but Tuesday and Saturday, 9:30 AM, ARTHUR C. CLARKE
Weekdays, 10:00 AM, STRANGE BUT TRUE?
Every day but Tuesday and Saturday, 5:00 PM, ARTHUR C. CLARKE
Every day but Tuesday and Saturday, 5:30 PM, ARTHUR C. CLARKE
Weekdays,6:00 PM, STRANGE BUT TRUE?
Every day but Monday and Sunday, 1:00 AM, ARTHUR C. CLARKE
Every day but Monday and Sunday, 1:30 AM, ARTHUR C. CLARKE
Tuesdays through Saturdays, 2:00 AM, STRANGE BUT TRUE?
Wednesdays, Thursdays, Fridays, 9:00 AM and 9:30 AM, ARTHUR C. CLARKE'S
MYSTERIOUS UNIVERSE
Wednesdays, Thursdays, Fridays, 5:00 PM and 5:30 PM, ARTHUR C. CLARKE'S
MYSTERIOUS UNIVERSE
Saturdays, OUT OF THIS WORLD all day long

THE SCI-FI CHANNEL (US Feed)

Monday, August 23, 11:00 AM, SIGHTINGS: EPISODE #3002 (haunting; alien
abductions; angels; cattle mutilations; new species)
Tuesday, August 24, 11:00 AM, SIGHTINGS: EPISODE #3003 (Area 51; pet
interpreter; ice circles; psychic detective; alien abductees)
Wednesday, August 25, 11:00 AM, SIGHTINGS: EPISODE #3004 (Bigfoot;
near-death-experience)
Thursday, August 26, 11:00 AM, SIGHTINGS: EPISODE #3005 (Tuguska event;
near-death experiences; spontaneous human combustion; hauntings)
Friday, August 27, 11:00 AM, SIGHTINGS: EPISODE #3006 (psychic detective;
earthquake predictions; UFO hoax; power of prayer; SETI)

SYNDICATED (USA)

Next Wednesday, Sept 1, LEEZA (psychics and hypnotists)
___________________________

This is Bufo saying, "If =everything= seemed normal, that =would= be weird!"
____________________________

You can stop receiving this from me just by asking (note: it is commonly
redistributed, and I can't control you getting it from those sources) by
e-mail at BufoCalvin@aol.com. You can also subscribe or unsubscribe to Bufo's
WEIRD WORLD Media Alert the same way. Also, please let me know if there is
something in the media you think I should cover. Deadline is Tuesday, the
week before.
_____________________________







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Aug > Aug 23

                              Filer's Files #33

From: George A. Filer <Majorstar@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 1999 12:22:52 EDT
Fwd Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 23:53:49 -0400
Subject: Filer's Files #33


Filer's Files #33 --1999,  MUFON Skywatch Investigations
George A. Filer,  Director, Mutual UFO Network Eastern
August 22, 1999,   Majorstar@aol.com  (609) 654-0020

SIGHTINGS INCREASE IN EASTERN US, CANADA, AND BRAZIL

PENNSYLVANIA DAYLIGHT UFO

READING -- Stan Gordon received a report from woman who told him
how her son ran into the house very excited.  He described a
silver disk flying high in the sky on August 16, 1999.  Stan
interviewed the boy who had been outside watching some birds
flying around, when his attention was drawn to a silver disk
shaped object above him and high in the sky.  The object
appeared motionless at 2:12 PM.  The young man stated, he could
see what looked like a figure U that was dark green in color at
the bottom of the disk.  The object zoomed off at a high rate of
speed towards the South with a low rumble.  During July and
August, there has been an apparent surge in UFO sighting
activity being reported around the state. The National UFO
Reporting Center lists numerous reports that they have received,
many are from eastern sections of the state.  These include
numerous colored lights and odd beams illuminating the sky in
Indiana County.  A woman near Pittsburgh reports that a silent
wide beam of light suddenly appeared above her and projected
downward, illuminating the inside of her vehicle.  She
immediately got out of the car, but could not see anything that
could account for the source of the bright beam.  BUTLER COUNTY
-- Stan Gordon reports a second daylight observance of a UFO on
August 16, 1999, has been reported north of Pittsburgh.  A
married couple were relaxing in a swimming pool at about 5:45
PM.  The man noticed in the eastern sky, a circular object that
appeared to be of a dull gray metallic color.  The object was
high in the sky and was quite small when first observed.  During
the next few minutes as the couple watched, the object moved
west towards their direction over Butler, but remained at a high
altitude.  As the object got closer, it became larger and more
detail could be seen.  The couple could see that there were
actually two round or circular objects that appeared to be
joined together side by side, but giving the impression that
they were individual objects.  The objects were "like quarters
on edge" and they appeared thin with little depth.  The sun did
not appear to reflect off the devices.  As the couple continued
to watch, the objects suddenly stopped, then made a sharp 90
degree turn towards the North and moved behind a tree blocking
the view of the observers. They continued to look waiting for
the objects to emerge from behind the tree, but this never
occurred.  Thanks to: Stan Gordon, PA UFO Hotline: 724-838-7768
Website:  http://www.westol.com/~paufo

STAINED HANDS ON POSSIBLE NEW JERSEY ABDUCTEE

John Combest writes concerning the case Vince Creevy and Derrel
Sims discussed last week, concerning possible repeated
abductions.  I read about these folks with the stains on their
hands.  Since the occurrence of the stains has been somewhat
repetitive with Rick and seems to be only on his hands, I formed
the notion that Rick is not getting his hands into the staining
material because of what the abductors are doing to him, but
what they are having him do to someone else or something.  In
other words, he is being used to accomplish some task which
subjects him to the staining material.  Sounds like a real ripe
case for regression.  Just a thought.  Thanks to: John Combest
jecombest@worldnet.att.net CLIFTON � I returned the call of
another possible abductee on August 23, 1999.  He informed me
that he had been abducted last night and was regularly visited
by several kinds of alien beings.  We are attempting to
establish a support group in Northern New Jersey to investigate
these cases in more detail. SUSSEX COUNTY -- Frank Gussie
reports he witnessed a triangular UFO in the summer of 1968.  I
was 11 years old at the time.  It came over the trees maybe 200
feet up and flew over me and disappeared toward the Delaware
River. It was a bright shiny silver gray in color.  I called my
family but they came out too late.  We had the house in
Hainesville, NJ at the time and we were on rural dirt road.  I
had not seen or heard of any more triangular shaped UFOs until I
was watching Sightings on Fox television about a similar Russian
UFO thus validating my sighting.  Thanks to Frank Gussie
(kilo95@aol.com)

WISCONSIN ILLINOIS STRANGE DISAPPEARANCE

MANITOWOC - UFO investigator Joe Trainor who is moving to Duluth
writes In June we had another "Lake Michigan Triangle" incident.
An excursion boat vanished ten miles east of Manitowoc,
Wisconsin.  Yes, that's the same Manitowoc where the weird white
critter showed up last year. The Coast Guard swept the lake
bottom with sonar, but there was no sign of wreckage.  Thanks to
Joe Trainor.

ILLINOIS STRANGE DISAPPEARANCE

CHICAGO � On August 14, 1999, a father and two young children
went sailing on Lake Michigan on a hot summer day.  They have
been missing since then.  Their sailboat was fond after an
intensive air and sea search.  The sailboat was found drifting
several days later twenty-five miles northeast of Chicago.  The
craft was still in good condition with the main mast stowed.
All three occupants were missing.  Editor's Note: The entire
Great Lakes are known for frequent UFO sightings and strange
disappearances.

OKLAHOMA

YUKON -- S. Ritter e-mail states, "As I stopped at the stop
light at 1st Street and Vandement on March 22, 1999, I witnessed
a strange cigar-shaped object.  "It was flying along and then it
stopped for a second or two, then it took off again heading
east."  I could see that both of the ends of this strange
looking craft were round without wings.  Later, the same evening
around 11:00 PM, I was making my rounds checking to make sure
all of our doors were locked.  I saw out of the corner of my
eye, that there was something or someone standing behind my
husband's desk chair where he sits to do his office work.  This
thing was just watching me.  It was dark gray in color and a
little taller than my 6 year old son.  It had a big head, and a
small body and it was wearing a black robe.  When I turned
around quickly, it was gone.  The being really startled me.  I
thought perhaps it was my son playing a trick, but when I went
to see if it was him, he was sound asleep.  Since I have seen
these strange craft, and this being, I cannot let my guard down.
There is something and someone out there.  Thank to S. Ritter of
Yukon.

MONTANA

KAILISPELL -- On the evening of August 9, 1997, I happened to
look up, towards the West.  It was cloudless, and the sun had
been down for a while, so there was just a thin band of light on
the western horizon.  Something came out of the west, going very
fast, and as it arrived overhead, I saw its underside quite
clearly.  It was shaped like a short, blunt triangle, with sides
that bulged outward slightly.  It was colored a dirty gold, and
from the back was streaming three short thin lines of exhaust.
They were very evenly spaced.  It was traveling very straight,
as it was holding the same altitude and there was no curve to
its path at all.  The exhaust was the same color as the object
but just a bit brighter, and I thought at the time it might be
that color because of its altitude -- maybe high enough to catch
sunlight?  I saw no lights. The object was about 1/2 the size of
a full moon. Because of it's speed, it was only visible for
perhaps 6 or 7 seconds.  Malmstrom AFB lies just on the other
side of the Rockies from us.  Thanks to  kubac@digisysnet .

CANADIAN TRIANGLE UFO

VANCOUVER, BC -- Bill Oliver UFO*BC reports that on May 19,
1999, Ladner Jordan was looking out his bedroom window when he
viewed a triangular object in the southwest sky at 2:30 AM.  It
was moving very slowly to the northwest. It would periodically
change position from left to right.  The lights on the object
were flashing in a rotating manner, and there was no sound
discernible.  Jordan estimates that the craft was at an
elevation of 2000 feet.  He watched the object until 4:00 AM.
VANCOUVER -- Mike was looking towards the south, watching a
plane flying below the clouds, heading west towards the airport
on June-7, 1999.  Suddenly, a silver disc-like object dropped
out of the clouds into a clear blue patch of sky behind and to
the east of the plane at 12:10 PM.  The object remained
stationary while the plane continued westward.  After about 5 10
seconds, there was a flash of bright light and the object was
gone.  The object was smaller than a dime at arm's length, but
still easily discernible as a disc with light glinting off of
it. The "flash" looked similar to a ship going into warp drive.
On June 22, 1999, four witnesses observed a disc-shaped craft
flying at a high altitude at 7:15 PM.  The green, blue, red and
white lights appeared to be rotating (or the craft was).  The
sky was clear, the moon was visible and no sound was heard.
Total viewing time about 5 minutes. BURNBY -- On July 3, 1999,
Alice and a companion were driving south when they observed an
extremely bright white light, stationary in the southeastern
sky. They pulled their vehicle over and stopped to watch the
object between 8:30 and 9:00 PM.  It appeared to be below cloud
level.  Over the next 5 minutes the light slowly diminished in
intensity and finally "vanished." Both witnesses claimed they
were familiar with approaching aircraft, and this was not the
case. SOUTH BURNBY � On July 23, 1999, several witnesses
observed a small pulsating red light slowly circling the Alex
Fraser Bridge at 00:45 AM.  After about 50 minutes it slowly
drifted away. The pulsation rate was 46 cycles per minute.
LANGLEY�On July 28, 1999, Peter, watched a brilliant white light
across the street from where he was sitting on his porch at
10:00 PM. "It just appeared; as large as a garbage can lid." The
light/object moved slowly across the street towards him and out
of sight around the house. He followed. It was hovering over a
hydra pole. As he watched, the light went out. No noise had been
heard emanating from it. Total viewing time was about 90
seconds. SATURNA ISLAND -- On 29-July-99, a couple used 15 power
binoculars to watch an object move back and forth then up and
down in the Northwest sky at 00:30 AM. It was a bright white
light that flashed red, blue and green.  After 1/2 an hour, it
slowly moved south towards Bellingham.  It appeared to be round,
very high up, and no noise could be heard. Total viewing time
about 1 hour. One of the witnesses is ex-RCMP and is familiar
with aircraft, having worked at the Vancouver Airport Thanks to:
Bill Oliver UFO*BC     www.ufobc.org. MISSISSAUGA, ONTARIO --
Aaron and I were outside helping pack my parents van as they
were heading out to Nova Scotia on July 23, 1999.  I was looking
at the stars in the sky when I spotted an intense bright white
light heading west over the Clarkson/Lorne Park. The light was
moving at a fast rate of speed.  It made no sound.  After about
10 seconds, it made a sudden 90 degree turn to the north.  It
started to move faster and after about another 5 seconds turned
again 90 degrees and headed east. The light then disappeared
from sight. My house is under flight paths for planes arriving
and departing from Pearson International Airport, however the
airport is closed at this hour. Thanks to awarner81@yahoo.com

TWO MOTHER SHIP UFOs FLY OVER BRAZIL

LAVRINHAS -- On July 13, 1999, Lus Messano, a teacher and owner
of a farm said, "A flight of UFOs hovered above the cities of
Lavrinhas and Cachoeira Paulista, in So Paulo at 8:00 PM."  Two
of these objects were very big.  They were the size of the full
moon.  Around ten smaller UFOs departed from the two mother
ships. The event took 3 hours and some other people saw it as
well.  On July 22nd, Mr. Messano reported that virtually the
same event happened again, and that five Brazilian Air Force
jet-fighters attempted to intercept them. We are still looking
for more information on these events.  PRAIA DA BALEIA -- On
Wednesday, July 7, 1999, "two metallic yellow OVNIs" or UFOs
were spotted while flying over Praia da Baleia beach on Ilha
Bela in the South Atlantic Ocean, off the coast of Sao Paulo
State.  According to Diario de Grande ABC, "the objects had a
strange metallic yellow color and were coming from the ocean" at
a height of "about 20 meters (66 feet).  They had no wings and
made no sound."  Brazilian ufologists are investigating the
sighting.  (See the Brazilian newspaper Diario de Grande ABC for
July 8, 1999. Thanks to   THIAGO LUIZ TICCHETTI   Director
Departamento de Publicao e Traduo Especializadas (DEPTE -
EBE-ET Brasilia)

SCOTLAND

EDINBURGH � On June 28, 1999, Pamela Hunter reports, "As I am in
the flight path for flights going into Edinburgh airport, it's
not unusual to see landing-lights from aircraft.  However this
time, I noticed a very bright light and very HIGH like a star.
It was moving in a straight line at 11:00 PM.  At first I
thought it was a plane, but the light was too bright and too far
away I just knew it was different I have never seen anything
like this before. I followed this light for 25 seconds then the
light dropped from the sky towards earth.  It was so fast, it
looked as though it dropped 100s of feet in a very short space
of a second or two.  Then the light continued in a straight line
again then quickly moved off and disappeared.  Thanks to Dave
Ledger UFO Scotland

UFO HOVERS OVER TOWN IN NORTHERN PORTUGAL

    On Saturday, July 10, 1999, a silvery UFO was seen hovering
    over Rojas, a tiny town in the rugged mountains of the Tras
    os Montes region of northern Portugal.  "There were a lot of
    witnesses to this sighting," a resident reported.  "They say
    it was kind of like a silver ball with a black or navy-blue
    stripe at the center.  They had it in view for over five
    minutes."  Rojas is about 50 kilometers (30 miles) west of
    Mirandella, site of last year's big UFO sighting, and about
    270 kilometers (164 miles) north of Lisboa, the national
    capital.  Thanks to Joseph Trainor, UFO Roundup 8/11/99 and
    Guillermo Alarcon.

JENNY RANDLE'S COMMENTS ON ABDUCTIONS

UK investigator and outstanding author Jenny Randle's writes,
"By all means I will comment on abductions." I first
investigated such a case in the UK 20 years ago. For seven years
I worked with clinical psychologists and attended about a dozen
regression experiments on various cases. The outcome was quite
varied and none involved the traditional US gray figures
conducting medical examinations. What entities did appear were
mostly human or Nordic. But there was a range of others -- from
monsters to robots. The only real consistency came in the basic
form of the experience -- witness sees a light, witness loses
consciousness, witness awakes in strange bright room and sees
entities, some sort of contact/psychic experience or message is
conveyed, witness reawakens back in prior environment (e.g.,
bedroom or car -- these accounting for 17 out of 19 cases I was
part of during that time). There were smatterings of medical
probes but nothing like that found in the Hopkins cases. The
above work occurred between l979 and l986. From this data
several conclusions emerged. Various witnesses explained their
doubts about hypnosis. They felt it made them more confused, not
less so. They were unclear of the reality status of their
experience. Some felt positively harmed psychologically by the
trauma of hypnosis.  I also saw warning signs -- e.g., a case
where I found myself suddenly speaking to the witness (in
regression) who was no longer describing her encounter but
channeling the alien and cosmic messages as if I was now
actually addressing that being. Or another where a witness
suffered an epileptic seizure during regression. And at least
three cases where the doctor, monitoring EEG and ECG of the
witness, terminated the experiment as these became dangerously
high. I even later discovered that one doctor (medically
qualified) whom one of my colleagues was working with was
evidently using a drug to help induce hypnosis that brought him
considerable pressure from the medical council afterwards, since
I gather some of his patients were unaware of its use.

For these reasons I rapidly came to see hypnosis as a major part
of the problem -- given its less than acknowledged ability to
always stimulate memory rather than fantasy. As our primary duty
was to the witness, it was to my mind dangerous to push them
into such situations merely on the pretext that we were seeking
'better evidence' about their abduction. The tighter controls
and l988 BUFORA ban on the use of regression altogether greatly
reduced the number of reported abductions; although not to zero.
Some conscious memory cases did arrive and, of course, several
UK groups continued unabated with the use of regression.
Although I have not recommended the use of hypnosis to any
witness since the BUFORA ban and have not been directly involved
in any subsequent case that has used it I have personally
undergone hypnosis (via a clinical psychologist) as part of an
experiment and sat in as observer on other peoples cases where
hypnosis was used (again via a different clinical psychologist)

I also discovered several cases where my investigation revealed
that the perceived time loss of a few minutes -- the period
thought to contain the abduction -- probably never actually
occurred. Logically, if there was no time lapse (or at most say
five minutes) then there could be no abduction.  But as an
abduction recall did emerge vis hypnosis in these cases we had a
problem.  Was the recall a fantasy induced by hypnosis but taken
more seriously because of the misdiagnosis of a time lapse?  Or
was the abduction experience real enough but contracted in time
so that it seemed to last, say, an hour when only five minutes
went by?  If so there is one phenomenon that already involves
what we find in abductions -- such time contractions, scene
jumping and impossible reality superimposed onto normal reality.
That phenomenon is the dream -- particularly the lucid dream. I
thought immediately this was a significant clue and have
developed from it my 'waking lucid dream' hypothesis.

 >From the evidence I have watched unfold -- across personally
now some 30 cases and with association of some kind with several
others - I have some opinions on what is happening.  Firstly,
witnesses to an abduction are almost always sincere.  These are
not hoaxes but genuine, mystifying experiences.  They occur to
what we might call an abduction prone personality -- with traits
that have clearly stood out in my cases and via several other
studies (e.g., by Keith Basterfield in Australia, Ken Philips in
the UK and Dr Alex Keul's European anamnesis experiments). They
are predominantly young (very few over the age of 40), female
(around two thirds of UK witnesses), above average intelligence,
creatively visual, with a developing interest in ecology and
similar ideals, possessive of above average recall of early life
experiences (e.g. prior to the age of 2) and commonly with a
life long track record of experiencing strange phenomena of
which the abduction/s is/are just a part.  Not all witnesses
have all features but 90% of mine have at least three.  As such
I think it is fair to say that being an abductee is a specialist
skill.  The second part of this article will continue next week.
Thanks to Jenny Rankles.

KECKSBURG, PENNSYLVANIA TAPE -- UFO crash/retrieval Video
Documentary   Most readers of this column are familiar with the
Roswell event, but many are unaware that a similar incident
occurred in Pennsylvania in 1965, near a small rural community
called Kecksburg.  Veteran UFO researcher Stan Gordon, has been
gathering information on this case for many years, and has
produced a studio made 92 minute video called "Kecksburg The
Untold Story."  This production recently won the 1998 EBE film
award for the Best Historical UFO Documentary.  The video
contains interviews with many people who have information about
the case including witnesses who saw the object in the sky, and
those who say they came across a large metallic acorn shaped
object with strange markings, partially buried in the ground,
before the military arrived on the scene.  Among those
interviewed are reporters who were on location that night.  A
witness says he saw the odd acorn shaped object on the back of
an army flatbed tractor trailer truck.  Civilians claim they
were confronted by armed military personnel.  For the first time
witnesses speak out on camera discussing information which
suggests that there could have been a cover-up.  A startling
revelation is revealed here from a witness, who says he saw a
body in the same building with the Kecksburg object at
Wright-Patterson Air Force Base only days after it was delivered
there. Also contained in the documentary are some of the actual
audio excerpts from the WHJB radio special called "Object in the
woods."  It was broadcast soon after the incident in a "cut and
edited version."  To order your copy of "Kecksburg The Untold
Story"  send a check or money order to: Stan Gordon Productions,
P.O. Box 936, Greensburg, PA 15601. Attention: Dept. GF.  The
cost of the tape including shipping and handling is $35.90.  For
PA residents the cost including tax, S&H is $38.05. For more
information, check out Stan's updated website at
www.westol.com/~paufo

U.S. GOVERNMENT UFO PROOF RELEASED: Audio tapes of a genuine UFO
Alert at Edwards Air Force base and studied by the Foreign
Technology Division at Wright Patterson Air Force Base, are now
available for distribution to the public.  Lunar Astronaut Dr.
Edgar Mitchell was at Edwards the night the UFO chase occurred.
The 6th person to walk on the moon said, "The night it happened
I investigated it myself and this was a real event."  Sam
Sherman's audio documentary tape called THE EDWARDS AIR FORCE
BASE ENCOUNTER on the night of October 7, 1965, uses the actual
voice recordings provided by the Air Force.  During this event
12 high tech luminous UFOs invade secure air space and came down
low over the runways at Edwards AFB.  Tower operator Sgt. Chuck
Sorrels spotted them and notified the Air Defense Command.  Sgt.
Sorrels is heard on the original tapes and in a new segment
where he verifies the event as it is heard on the archival
recordings.  The UFOs are described and a decision is made to
launch F-106 fighter interceptors.  You are there for an
important part of UFO history.  Hear it for yourself, it's the
best UFO tape ever made.  Tape cost is $14.95 each plus $2.00
for shipping -- total $16.95 -- you can send eitherpersonal
check or money order to: Independent International Films, Box
565, Dept. GF, Old Bridge, New Jersey 08857.







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   Aug > Aug 23

                         Films of UFOs and Sasquatch

From: Royce J. Myers III <evidence@hotmail.com>
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 1999 12:41:47 PDT
Fwd Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 23:55:40 -0400
Subject: Films of UFOs and Sasquatch


Hello to all -

I was wondering if anyone remembers hearing about a man in
either the Air Force or the Secret Service who served aboard Air
Force One during JFK's presidency.

This person reported that he had conversations with JFK
regarding UFOs. He had also stated that JFK would watch
classified films of UFOs and Sasquatch at the Pentagon.

I vaguely remember hearing his story on either Heff Rense or Art
Bell. Any help would be greatly apreciated. Thank you.

Regards,

Royce J. Myers III
eXpos: The Watchdog of UFOlogy � 1998
http://home.sprintmail.com/~rjm3






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   Aug > Aug 23

                  Lawyer To Sue For Release Of Real X Files

From: Mark Hall <capn_black@msn.com>
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 1999 22:44:23 +0100
Fwd Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 23:58:58 -0400
Subject: Lawyer To Sue For Release Of Real X Files


UK Sunday Telegraph Aug 22nd 1999

Sunday 22 August 1999
Lawyer to sue for release of 'real X-Files'
By James Langton in New York

The truth is out there, and Peter Gersten believes that he knows
where to find it. As director of the Citizens Against UFO
Secrecy he will launch a lawsuit this week against the United
States government, claiming that its refusal to hand over secret
documents on the existence of flying saucers is a violation of
his constitutional rights.

While the authorities, including the Department of Defence and
the CIA, continue to insist that they are not concealing details
about alien incursions, their denials are undermined by growing
evidence of real-life X-Files.

The British academic journal Intelligence and National Security
last week published an official CIA report that documented
attempts by the agency to uncover the truth behind UFO sightings
over half a century. It revealed that the CIA operated its own
team of UFO investigators and that, like the television series
The X-Files in which secret agents probe extra-terrestrial
activity, the agency was plagued by sometimes bitter divisions
between sceptics and those who believed in flying saucers. Mr
Gersten and his organisation hope that their latest lawsuit will
force the authorities to reveal what they know about a large
number of well-documented sightings of large triangular craft
seen over Arizona and New Mexico in recent years. The objects,
some many times larger than a jumbo jet, have been observed by
tens of thousands of people. One was filmed over Phoenix two
years ago but later interpreted by the air force as a series of
flares dropped in a training mission - an explanation few
accepted. "People have a right to the truth," says Mr Gersten, a
lawyer from Scottsdale, Arizona, who believes that
extra-terrestrials are trying to contact us through crop
circles. "I believe that the authorities have evidence and that
I can prove it in a court of law."

While such extreme opinions are only shared by a tiny minority,
most Americans believe that their government knows more than it
will say. Opinion polls show that more than half now believe in
UFOs. And after years of denial, almost all branches of the
American military now admit that they carried out their own
secret investigations into flying saucers, particularly in the
1950s when UFO fever peaked.

The CIA report, by its official historian Gerald Haynes, says
that the agency eventually concluded that most reports could be
explained and that there were no little green men. While some
CIA agents believed that there was evidence of genuine UFO
activity, the official version attributes at least half the
sightings to secret US Air Force reconnaissance aircraft such as
the U2 and Blackbird.

Dr Bruce Maccabee, one of America's leading UFO experts who
regularly met CIA agents from 1979, believes that the "real
X-Files" are in the vaults of the air force and FBI. The air
force also maintained Project Blue Book in which it documented
nearly 13,000 sightings between 1951 to 1969, all but 700 of
which it was able to explain as conventional aircraft or natural
phenomenon.

The air force has also attempted - with very limited success -
to end speculation that it recovered the remains of a spacecraft
which crashed near Roswell, New Mexico, in 1947 and several
alien bodies. It has released previously classified files which
claim that the "saucer" was actually a weather balloon used to
monitor nuclear tests and that the "aliens" were crash test
dummies for parachute prototypes. Among UFO diehards, however,
such "explanations" are seen only as evidence of a further
cover-up.


Mark Hall
UFO Community On MSN http://communities.msn.com/ufo/
CSETI www.cseti.org
UFOStudies  http://ufostudies.oaktree.co.uk/





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   Aug > Aug 24

                Re: 'Doorway Amnesia' & Modern Day Abductees?

From: Amy Hebert <yelorose@swbell.net>
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 1999 17:07:27 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 01:23:59 -0400
Subject: Re: 'Doorway Amnesia' & Modern Day Abductees?


 >From: Roy Hale <roy.hale@virgin.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
 >Subject: 'Doorway Amnesia &  Modern Day Abductees ?
 >Date: Sat, 21 Aug 1999 15:13:38 +0100


 >If the Abduction researchers on this list could enlighten us if
 >this is the case with modern day Abductees. Does the memory of
 >entering the craft always get wiped? Is this what you have found
 >to be the case?

Roy, you have raised an interesting point!

Reflecting upon your question, I came up with three possible
reasons why modern day abduction stories seem to skip the
"doorway" process:

1. Abductor technology may now include a "beam me up" procedure
that wasn't available or perfected back then

2. Some of the first symptoms reported by abductees before they
are abducted are paralysis and/or unconsciousness so the
abductors may now more heavily sedate their victims before
attempting to transfer them to another location (humans are more
"compliant" when they are unconscious and can't fight back)

3. Most of the cases we learn about now may be influenced by
researcher bias which tends to "stereotype" events according to
what the *researcher* believes happened or what he/she thinks
will be more "acceptable" to the public

There are other, less publicized cases in which abductees
remember, even without hypnosis, being taken aboard a vehicle
via a ramp or stairs.  We just don't hear about them because
they do not fit the "average" case scenario and thus tend to be
rejected and/or ignored by mainstream abductology.

BTW, Betty Hill also recalled being taken up a ramp when she was
abducted.


Amy
Home Page: "http://members.tripod.com/TheVanguard"





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   Aug > Aug 24

                  Re: Abductions: A Funny Thing Happened...

From: Joseph Polanik <jpolanik@mindspring.com>
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 1999 22:38:13 GMT
Fwd Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 01:30:21 -0400
Subject: Re: Abductions: A Funny Thing Happened...


 >Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 20:30:36 -0500
 >To: updates@globalserve.net
 >From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
 >Subject: Abductions: A Funny Thing Happened...

 >List,

 >One aspect of the UFO phenomenon I occasionally think about (to
 >the chagrin of some) is the abduction angle.

 >For all practical intent & purposes it began in 1961, with the
 >Betty & Barney Hill experience, in the same way that the UFO
 >phenomenon itself can be said to begin with the 1947 Arnold
 >sighting: i.e., yes, earlier precedents (such as the 1957
 >Villas-Boas case) can be found, but we all know what we're
 >talking about here.

<snip to the rhetorical question>

 >So how is it, ... that we can claim more close encounters
 >than ever with little corroborating evidence to back it up, when
 >our sensors have multiplied many times over?

Why is it that we _assume_ that one phenomenon (UFOs) has
anything to do with the other (abduction/contact experiences)?

I emphasized 'assume' because I am amazed at the variability in
the willingness to evaluate evidence.

It's almost universally accepted that the government is lying
about this issue because they've admitted it. Only a skeptic
would be gullible enough to believe that they've finished lying.

There is a widespread willingness to consider evidence that
radar contact has been made with objects (presumably craft) not
produced on Earth.

There is a lesser, but growing, willingness to consider that
something extraordinary is happening to so-called abductees and
contactees.

Where is the willingness to soberly evaluate the evidence as to
whether one phenomena is related to the other, and, if so, how?

Is there any evidence that would selectively discriminate
between these theories:

1. That the same off-world beings that pilot the craft are also
perpetrating the abductions.

2. That abductions are Out-of-Body Experiences, Lucid Dreams or
cases of Awareness during Sleep Paralysis that are unrecognized
or incompletely recalled.

I know that there are advocates of each point of view. But if we
were to sit down to soberly sift the evidence available now, do
we find any that is simultaneously consistent with one theory
but inconsistent with the other?

Joe



*****************************************************
Joseph Polanik, jpolanik@mindspring.com





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   Aug > Aug 24

                     Wilhelm Reich's Contact With Space

From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@get2net.dk>
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 05:39:34
Fwd Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 01:41:03 -0400
Subject: Wilhelm Reich's Contact With Space


Source: space.com

http://www.space.com/area51/reich_816.html

Part 1 of 2.

Stig

***

Wilhelm Reich's Contact With Space

By Robert Scott Martin
Staff Writer

Aug 16 1999 17:38:03 ET

**

On January 28, 1954, Wilhelm Reich "happened accidentally to
observe two bright yellow-orange lights moving in front of a
mountain range toward a lake." The encounter was the opening
salvo of a "war" with UFOs that would occupy the final phases of
Reich's troubled medical and scientific career.

At the time, Reich, a trained psychoanalyst who had once
belonged to Sigmund Freud's inner Vienna circle, was already
facing what he called "emotional and physical misery" caused by
his more terrestrial battle with the U.S. Food & Drug
Administration over the use of "orgone," a controversial form of
ambient "life energy" he claimed to have discovered.

Reich found an inexhaustible range of uses for his discovery,
touting orgone as everything from the secret of antigravity to a
tool for weather control, especially rainmaking. Most
importantly, he found that he could use orgone to "interfere"
with UFOs.

But to the FDA, orgone simply did not exist, rendering Reich's
orgone-based therapies prosecutable under quackery statutes.
Even today, four decades after the controversy, Reichian
therapists claim to be able to manipulate the energy for a wide
variety of healing effects, including the cure for cancer,
without resorting to drugs, radiation or chemicals. Instead,
Reichians work to build up a current of orgone within the
patient's vicinity in order to strengthen and heal the
underlying life force itself.

Nevertheless, Reich's legal fight with the FDA ended with his
death in prison after defying a federal injunction against the
use of orgone for medical purposes.

Whatever the official status of his medical theories, Reich
expected a response when he wrote to the U.S. Air Force about
his UFO sighting. He reasoned that "the U.S. Air Force is the
natural organization in the Western world responsible" for
dealing with such phenomena because "it operates in the
atmosphere and watches the frontier upward toward outer space."
When the military didn't deal with his report to his
satisfaction, Reich took matters into his own hands.


The encounter and the Air Force


In his letter to the Air Force, reproduced in his last book,
Contact With Space, Reich described his sighting as "a brightly
shining light" moving from west to east through the forest
outside Rangeley, Maine. A second, similar phenomenon soon
joined the first, both moving steadily in front of Spotted
Mountain. He concluded that the objects were not stars due to
their course and the mountain intervening between their apparent
motion and the sky, but the possibility that they were military
vehicles or other objects of a terrestrial type did not seem to
occur to him.

At around the same time, Reich's secretary, Ilse Ollendorff,
also reported seeing "a similar, but brighter and bigger,
because closer, object." Like the aerial phenomena observed by
Reich, Ollendorff's sighting hovered in front of a mountain, but
then "was seen rising once vertically upward, settling down
again and then disappearing."

The Air Force, for its part, was either unaware of Reich's
running battle with the FDA, or was intrigued enough by his
encounter to overlook the controversy. Lt. Steven J. Hebert,
stationed at the Presque Isle Air Force Base, wrote back telling
Reich that the "subject officer notified this organization to
take whatever action necessary, since this unit is interested in
investigating unidentified aerial phenomena."

Hebert enclosed a copy of Technical Information Sheet Form A,
the Air Force's UFO reporting questionnaire, for Reich and
Ollendorff to fill out and return. As Contact With Space
ruefully notes, Reich received the letter only five days before
the FDA obtained the injunction forbidding the distribution of
orgone equipment as medical devices.

Reich returned the questionnaire along with a copy of a short
essay, "Survey on Ea," providing background on other unusual
occurrences around the Orgonon research facility, including the
revelation that friends had told Reich "of saucers having been
seen over Orgonon in 1951." However, he had taken little
personal interest in the reports until 1953, when his discovery
of Keyhoe's book made him wonder whether UFOs -- or, in his
terminology, "Enigma Alpha" or "Ea" -- might be propelled by
orgone.

The Air Force did not reply, perhaps put off by the impenetrable
nature of the "basic orgonometric equations" included as an
appendix to "Survey on Ea." In the book, Reich includes a rather
coyly self-important note saying "not all can be revealed" about
his relationship with the Air Force, but there is no evidence in
Contact With Space that Reich was in communication with the
military until October, a full six months later.

Instead, during that time, Reich writes that he busied himself
with appealing the FDA injunction and preparing a research trip
to Arizona, where he hoped to investigate the role played by
orgone reactions in the formation of deserts.


Watching for hostile signs in the sky


In looking toward space to explain his sighting, Reich showed
himself to be anything but an uncontaminated witness. Like most
U.S. citizens in the 1950s, exposed to years of speculation that
flying saucers were not native to the Earth, Reich already
believed that unknown aerial phenomena were, in his words, most
likely "contacts with visitors from outer space."

Reich was familiar with Donald Keyhoe's groundbreaking 1953 book
Flying Saucers from Outer Space, leaving him predisposed to look
for extraterrestrial explanations for the unknown lights weaving
across the sky near his Maine research facility. Moreover, the
fact that he had seen 'War of the Worlds' only three weeks
before reporting his sighting was also likely a contributing
factor -- as Reich called the film "a rather realistic approach
to the planetary emergency," it evidently made quite an
impression.

Furthermore, the cultural climate of the 1950s not only
predisposed Reich to look beyond the Earth, but to look for
evidence that his UFOs were engaged in "warlike" behavior.

The threat of war was in the air, both in Reich's embattled
personal life and in the broader political framework. The Keyhoe
book popularized several apparently hostile encounters between
Air Force pilots and unidentified aerial phenomena, while no
less a personage than General Douglas MacArthur would warn only
a year after Reich's sighting that "all countries on Earth will
have to unite to ... make a common front against attack by
people on other planets."

With that in mind, the Austrian refugee, who had fled to the
United States from the Nazis, considered it not only a
scientific but a patriotic duty to alert Air Force Intelligence
to the encounter at once.

This policy of full disclosure was typical to Reich, who had
taken care to keep the White House informed about developments
in orgone research since 1951. While his critics point to this
as another symptom of what long-time skeptic Martin Gardner
called Reich's "paranoid egoism," Reich himself seems to have
considered the matter a "major responsibility" and seems to have
downplayed the potential uses of his encounter as a
self-promotional vehicle.


Just before the war with the UFOs


In May, however, Reich made an accidental discovery that a few
Air Force officers, including General Harold Watson, chief of
intelligence at Wright-Patterson Air Force Base, would find very
interesting.

As Reich was scanning the sky with a "cloudbuster," a device he
had designed to draw orgone out of the sky in order to induce
rain, he saw a star "fade out" in the presence of three other
witnesses. He pointed the cloudbuster pipes at a second blinking
light, which also faded in brightness. Meanwhile, the first star
reasserted itself once the cloudbuster was pointed away from it.

Reich repeated the experiment three more times in quick
succession, reporting identical effects each time. As it was
scientifically impossible that his device could have interacted
with actual stars -- even in orthodox Reichian literature, the
cloudbuster's range was measured in kilometers, not lightyears
-- he concluded that his device had interfered with two UFOs.

Having concluded that his cloudbuster could also function as a
"spacegun," Wilhelm Reich began to outfit his Arizona expedition
as though preparing for a war with outer space.

**

Next: Reich uses two spaceguns to fight a pitched months-long
battle -- in his words, "a galactic Valley Forge" -- with UFOs
in the Arizona desert.

*

more stories:

*Firmage Set to Launch Research Institute  *Government Closer to
Revealing Alien Presence, Group Says         images

*Wilhelm Reich *Organon, the Maine facility where Reich saw the
UFOs

related links:

*Public Orgonomic Research Exchange *The Wilhelm Reich
Museum(part one of a two part series)


Copyright �1999 space.com, inc. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. You can
read our terms of service.





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   Aug > Aug 24

                     Re: Socorro: The Zamora 'Insignia'

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 1999 23:49:36 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 08:21:17 -0400
Subject: Re: Socorro: The Zamora 'Insignia'


 >From: Martin Phillips <martin.phillips@dtn.ntl.com>
 >Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 23:18:59 +0100
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
 >Subject: Re: Socorro: The Zamora 'Insignia'


 >>Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 13:44:00 -0400
 >>From: Andy Roberts <Brigantia@compuserve.com>
 >>Subject: Socorro: The Zamora 'Insignia'
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>


 >As someone without any firm theories as to what's going on with
 >UFOs, and therefore neutral in the ET/human arguments, I watch
 >'debates' like this with interest.

 >As normal, there are strongly-argued views which use the same
 >evidence to argue for opposite points of view. I agree that
 >balloons should be considered, but I'd say they have been
 >considered here.

 >Going purely from messages on this list, and re-reading some
 >books which mention Socorro, balloons might explain some things.
 >But they don't explain everything, so a balloon isn't the
 >answer.

 >I'd say 'nice try, but needs more work to be convincing'


Dear Martin,

You have hit the nail on the head. The Failure of UFO Skepticism
is to provide Prosaic Explanations which may fit some facts of
th observation but overall or wrong or just _unconvincing_.

However, the Maccabee's First Rule of Debunking is:  any
explanation is better than none. The second rule is :  if the
first explanation seems unconvincing or is proven wrong, try
another. The corolloary is: keep trying until one sticks.





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   Aug > Aug 24

                     Re: Socorro: The Zamora 'Insignia'

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 1999 23:49:51 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 11:08:06 -0400
Subject: Re: Socorro: The Zamora 'Insignia'


 >From: David Rudiak DRudiak@aol.com
 >Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 14:27:41 EDT
 >Subject: Re: Socorro: The Zamora 'Insignia'
 >To: updates@globalserve.net


 >From: Andy Roberts <Brigantia@compuserve.com>
 >Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 13:44:00 -0400
 >Fwd Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 18:41:17 -0400
 >Subject: Re: Socorro: The Zamora 'Insignia'


 >>Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 21:53:14 -0300
 >>From: Donald Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
 >>To: updates@globalserve.net
 >>Subject: Re: Socorro: The Zamora 'Insignia'>

<snip>

 >Here's a simple calculation that shows that is would be
 >impossible for a "balloon" that size to lift that much weight.

I thank Dave Rudiak for providing a quantitative analysis of the
balloon "problem."   It is a further illustration of th fact
that a phenomenon which forms the core idea of a "prosaic
explanation" must be a known physical phenomenon and must
therefor obey known physical laws.

 >>>From the fundamental gas law

 >PV = nRT,

P = DRT would have been an easier starting point, where D
is the Density.

As Dave pointed out, pressure equilibrium at the opening of the
balloon (when the hot air is no being injected) means that P
inside = DiRTi = P ountside = DoRTo. If the inside temperature
is 20% higher than the outside, then Ti = 1.2 To and Di =
(1/1.2)Do. (These are nominal numbers, of course.)  The buoyancy
force is proportional to the difference in mass which is the
difference in the product DV: m supported by buoyancy = V(Do -
Di) = V(Do - 0.8Do) = VDo(.2), For a 500 m^3 volume and air
density as 1.3 Kg/m^3 the mass supported is 500x1.3x0.2 = 130
kg. Multiply by 2.2 to get "pounds of mass " :  286 lbs.

As Dave pointed out, even with lightweight balloonists, like 100
lbs each, there is not enough supported weight left to allow for
the weight of the balloon and the weight of the the gondola
,fuel, fuel burner (to heat the air) etc. Moreover, to get this
130 Kg difference required V = 500m^3 and that crorresponds to
about 5 m in radius or 10 m in diameter.... abou 30 feet.  At a
distance of 50 feet the angle subtanded at the eyes of Zamorra
by the balloon this big would be about 30 degrees.   This is
HUGE...... By way of comparison, an 8 ft car at 50 ft subtends
an angle of only about 9 degrees. One may well expect that
Zamorra, being a policeman, was well familiar with the
appearance and angular size of a car at 50 ft. Hence if he
compared it to a car in size we might conclude that the angular
size was much closer to 10 degrees than to 30 degrees.

Yes, he compared it to a balloon. Probably because of shape and
being in the air. A child's balloon? Or perhaps he was thinking
of a weather balloon (ca 6 ft in diameter). I'm sure he wasn't
thinking of a 30 (or more) diameter of a hot air balloon with
basket/gondola, etc.







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                          Re: Alfred's Odd Ode #313

From: Michael Christol <mchristo@mindspring.com>
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 1999 23:14:36 -0700
Fwd Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 11:08:06 -0400
Subject: Re: Alfred's Odd Ode #313


 >Date: Sat, 21 Aug 1999 05:11:38 -0500
 >From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
 >Subject: Alfred's Odd Ode #313



 >Apology to MW #313 (For August 21, 1999)

 >Has J. D. Ford at last resolved the tribulations Powell evolved?
 >Is the battle over -- lost? Is he bullied, cowed, and tossed?
 >Did three men, in TRUTH, contrive to murder Powell as it's
 >described? _Has_ John pleaded mental health, admitting he, in
 >fact, used stealth to plot a killing with some others he had met
 >-- some stupid brothers? Did he get the isotope and try to kill
 >(like one fine dope!) with cancer as a murder weapon? Can he be
 >that lost? It happens.  Suffolk county says he's guilty,
 >forgetting _Suffolk_ may be filthy -- lost in their own wicked
 >schemes beyond the scope of John Ford's dreams.

<snip>

 >John is ONE against the many. People, quick, condemned him
 >plenty. To this day he's ridiculed as a futile, phony fool!
 >Short and portly, described as Fudd-like, he's disgraced because
 >he looked like every fat kid *earning* torment in this world
 >that LOVES conformists. He was strident, and litigious -- in
 >your face . . . perhaps obnoxious. He could _make_ an enemy, and
 >that's a fact that's plain to see. What he's not, by MOST
 >account, was a danger to himself (you louts!), or any other
 >living thing that slinks or crawls -- SOME human beings!!!

Nice retort Alfred. I second what you have said. Hopefully, the
truth will emerge one day soon, and those who have used John
Ford to foster their points of view as well as their careers
will be brought to bear the burden of their guilt.

Keep hammering Alfred.

REgards, Mike






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                  Re: Abductions: A Funny Thing Happened...

From: John Velez<jvif@spacelab.net>
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 02:36:39 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 11:08:06 -0400
Subject: Re: Abductions: A Funny Thing Happened...

 >Date: Sat, 21 Aug 1999 22:06:30 -0500
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
 >From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
 >Subject: Re: Abductions: A Funny Thing Happened...

 >>Date: Sat, 21 Aug 1999 16:53:50 -0400
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
 >>From: John <jvif@spacelab.net>
 >>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Abductions: A Funny Thing Happened...

 ><Giant snip>

 >>BTW, don't hold your breath waiting for Uncle Sham to release
 >>any recon data it may possess on UFOs, (that it may have
 >>acquired via it's own detection equipment! ) You'd be dead and
 >>blue long before that happens. <Hee-Haw>)

 >John,

 >Glad to see you're alive and well! Peace to you, too!

 >A more measured response to follow manana or the day after. Or
 >the day after that. Right now us South Texans, Sasquatch
 >included, are battening down the hatches in anticipation of
 >Hurricane Bret.

 >Yee haw!

 >Dennis

Hi Dennis,

Don't come out of the root cellar until she blows over! Take
care of yourself and we'll all pray that the storm isn't severe
enough to harm life or property.

Look forward to hearing from you later.

Regards,






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                           NACOMM Sighting Report

From: Kenny Young <ufo@fuse.net>
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 07:30:08 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 11:08:06 -0400
Subject: NACOMM Sighting Report


-----

Date: Sun, 22 Aug 1999 22:58:57 -0500
From: Tim Hagemeister <director@nacomm.org>
To: "director@ufocenter.com" <director@ufocenter.com>
Subject: NACOMM Sighting Report


Date:08-06-99
Locations: Indianapolis, IN
Reporter: Carl M.
NACOMM Investigator: Dave Hagemeister

Experience: Carl M. is a young husband and father who works in a
profession which demands careful attention to details and swift
reaction to unfolding events. He is, also, an amateur
astronomer, member of an astronomical society and has actively
pursued his interests in that science for many years.

At 0137 hours, on Friday, 08/06/99 (the week-end that the famous
Brickyard-400 auto-race was held in his home city of
Indianapolis, Indiana), Carl had a very remarkable experience!
At the time, he was sitting in his favorite, high-back,
semi-reclining �star-gazing-chair� on the driveway of his home;
seriously involved in his frequent routine of practicing
observation-techniques � this time in preparation for the
Perseid Meteor Shower display which was due to appear on
08/12/99.

Carl said that he was not using any vision enhancing equipment
at the time and that the sky was crystal-clear, with a small,
wispy, fog-cloud occasionally passing to the South. He had been
viewing toward the Northeast for about 45 minutes; as that is
where the radiant of the meteor shower was expected on the 12th.

Suddenly, he detected a movement in the Southern part of the
sky; but, initially assumed that it was nothing more than a
dark-colored, low-flying bird whose underbelly was being
illuminated by light-glow from the city �  not an uncommon sight
for a city astronomer. However, upon quickly turning toward the
object, for a better look; he immediately noticed what appeared
to be a gray spot behind it and to one side.

Then, as the object continued to move rapidly in a level,
South-to-North trajectory, it soon came into full view, and Carl
saw what appeared to be a single, dull-black,
triangularly-shaped craft, with relatively straight,
equal-length sides, a solid-mass-body and gray spots on its
tips. He estimated it to be about the length of a
16-wheel-semi-truck with attached box-trailer; but, only 4-6
feet high.

As the object passed over, at about a 45 degree angle from where
he was then standing; and approximately 50  feet above the
ground( just over the line of trees in his front yard); it was
illuminated by bright lights at  the car wash, located about a
block away. Carl could clearly see that the craft was emitting
no light; its skin appeared smooth - with no visible windows,
bulges, appendages or propulsion outlets � nor were there any
vapor trails.

The object continued in a Northerly direction at a relatively
high rate-of-speed (Carl estimated it to be about 100 MPH, based
upon his recollection of the cars racing on the Indy-oval);
until it was blocked from his view by neighboring houses and
trees. He said that the entire sighting event was over in less
than 10 seconds!

Carl stated that the most striking aspect of the whole
experience was that there was absolutely no sound associated
with the craft � no jet-noise, no hum, no whir and no air
turbulence! Therefore, had it not been for the facts that he was
sky watching at the time and that the city lights provided
illumination; he definitely would not have even known that the
object had passed by. Further, there were 5 dogs in his house
and none of them sounded any kind of alarm during the incident �
which they invariably would have done had any ordinary object
come within such close proximity!

Finally, Carl says that, had the object continued upon the same
course it was on when he lost sight of it, it should have passed
over I-65 at approximately the Raymond Street Exit, and possibly
was seen by others. However, he is not surprised that nothing
has appeared in the local news media; considering the universal
lack of credence that they currently given reports of this
nature!

Report submitted 08/21/99 @ 1330 by Dave Hagemeister


Further inquiries regarding this sighting may be directed to:
9908inin@nacomm.org






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   Aug > Aug 24

                Re: 'Doorway Amnesia' & Modern Day Abductees?

From: Jenny Randles <nufon@currantbun.com>
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 11:07:06 +0100
Fwd Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 11:08:06 -0400
Subject: Re: 'Doorway Amnesia' & Modern Day Abductees?


 >From: Roy Hale <roy.hale@virgin.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
 >Subject: 'Doorway Amnesia' & Modern Day Abductees?
 >Date: Sat, 21 Aug 1999 15:13:38 +0100

 >Hi People,

 >Flicking through my copy of 'The complete Book of UFOs An
 >Investigation into Alien Contacts and Encounters, Jenny Randles
 >& Peter Hough.

 >I came across this paragraph, Page 145: Taken from The Villas
 >Boas case 5th October 1957.

 >"Villas Boas remembered vividly being carried up a ramp and into
 >the craft, while modern Abductees suffer 'Doorway Amnesia' and
 >have no recollection, even under hypnosis, of how they got
 >inside."

 >If the Abduction researchers on this list could enlighten us if
 >this is the case with modern day Abductees. Does the memory of
 >entering the craft always get wiped? Is this what you have found
 >to be the case?


Hi,

Doorway Amnesia was discovered by Dr Eddie Bullard in his
analysis of hundreds of abductions. I can confirm that it is a
significant feature of British cases I have dealt with. Indeed
it is easily the most consistent feature of them - present in
over 95% of the cases I have dealt with. Similiar levels of
prevelance seem present elsewhere.

It is critical for many reasons. Firstly it gives a test of the
imagination hypothesis - something I tested for the MIT
symposium. Here it was found that people asked to fantasise an
abduction described this moment of capture nearly as often as
real abductees do not describe it. They conjured up imaginative
scenes of being led up a ramp into a spaceship, possily coerced
by ind control or at the point of a ray gun. Such things happen
in reality very rarely indeed.

For me this simple test thus provides one of the most cogent
arguments again st the 'all in the mind' hypothesis favoured by
psycho-socialists. I have yet to see them properly address this
truly glaring anomaly.

Note also that in most fictional renditions of an abduction -
for instance Close Encounters of the Third Kind, the scenes in
the Dynasty /Colby's TV soap - the actual moment of abduction/
or entry into the spaceship is graphically portrayed. Naturally.
What story teller is going to omit the most visually amazing
scene of the entire plot.

Well, abductees do - surely suggesting they are not mere story
tellers, consciously or otherwise.

In fact the problem goes much deeper. A typical abduction
features a witness who sees a light (interpreted as a UFO) loses
consciousness, awakes later at some missing time period after
the original encounter and gradually recalls the abduction
memory. This can be with the aid of hypnosis, through dreams or
flashbacks or protrtacted aid from UFOlogists.   What I find
most interesting is that a huge assumption is very often then
made by both the witness (but usually at the behest of the
investigators). Any scene where an alien meeting occurs is
presumed to takew place inside the spaceship. The big white
environment with an alien presence is frequently guessed to lie
behoind the light / craft initially perceived after an
unremembered (even via hypnosis) trip through its doors.

The one question you have to ask - but very few do ask - is what
if this major tenet of UFOlogy is a massive mistake? What if the
abduction does not occur inside the UFO?

There are plenty of clues in the data to suggest to the contrary
and very few that conclusively point towards the direct sighting
- kidnap - entry into the UFO - abduction inside the UFO story
line.

This is fundamental to our entire understanding of what is
happening and so is no minor issue. I have come upon cases where
there is little doubt a UFO interpretation is imposed onto a
case where under other circumstances an NDE story line works
just as well. And vice versa too. Whether the judgment about
terming a case an abduction into a UFO is valid or not the fact
remains the choice is often a UFOlogist driven assumption. As I
put it at Washington last month - we are as often the architects
as we are the archivists of this phenomenon and it is a problem
we have to take more seriously.






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                              High Flying Sagan

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 11:08:06 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 11:08:06 -0400
Subject: High Flying Sagan

http://www.sightings.com/politics4/fly.htm



Carl Sagan Flew Higher Than Scientific Imagination Alone

By Keay Davidson

Examiner Science Writer

http://www.examiner.com/990822/0822skyhigh.html
8-23-99



California Cosmology: Carl Sagan's Berkeley years.

For young people of the '60s and '70s, marijuana use was a rite
of passage. To the very youngest, smoking the illegal drug was
the boldest way to rebel against parental and governmental
authority. But many young adults used "weed" too. The term
"groves of academe" took on a new meaning in universities, where
the spiky-leaved plants grew vigorously and covertly under
ultraviolet lamps in dormitory closets.

Carl Sagan had been a regular marijuana user from the early '60s
on. He believed the drug enhanced his creativity and insights.
His closest friend of three decades, Harvard psychiatry
professor Dr. Lester Grinspoon, a leading advocate of the
decriminalization of marijuana, recalls an incident in the '80s
when one of his California admirers mailed him, unsolicited,
some unusually high-quality pot. Grinspoon shared the joints
with Sagan and his last wife, Ann Druyan. Afterward Sagan said,
"Lester, I know you've only got one left, but could I have it?
I've got serious work to do tomorrow and I could really use it."

Grinspoon's 1971 book "Marihuana Reconsidered" included a long
essay by an unidentified "Mr. X," who described his happy
experiences with the drug. The essay identified Mr. X as "a
professor at one of the top-ranking American universities" but
disguised his identity by saying he was "in his early forties."
In my interview with Grinspoon, he revealed that Mr. X was Sagan
(who turned 37 the year the book was published by Harvard
University Press).To Grinspoon, Sagan's use of the drug is
dramatic disproof of the popular wisdom that pot diminishes
motivation: "He was certainly highly motivated to work, to
contribute."

Mr. X's essay is of interest not merely because it reveals
Sagan's use of an illegal drug but also because it offers a
glimpse of feelings he rarely shared. Portions of the account
follow, beginning with Sagan's drug-induced version of Plato's
myth of the cave.

It all began about ten years ago. I had reached a considerably
more relaxed period in my life " a time when I had come to feel
that there was more to living than science, a time of awakening
of my social consciousness and amiability, a time when I was
open to new experiences.

I had become friendly with a group of people who occasionally
smoked cannabis, irregularly, but with evident pleasure.
Initially I was unwilling to partake, but the apparent euphoria
that cannabis produced and the fact that there was no
physiological addiction to the plant eventually persuaded me to
try. My initial experiences were entirely disappointing; there
was no effect at all, and I began to entertain a variety of
hypotheses about cannabis being a placebo which worked by
expectation and hyperventilation rather than by chemistry. After
about five or six unsuccessful attempts, however, it happened. I
was lying on my back in a friend's living room idly examining
the pattern of shadows on the ceiling cast by a potted plant
(not cannabis!). I suddenly realized that I was examining an
intricately detailed miniature Volkswagen, distinctly outlined
by the shadows. I was very skeptical at this perception, and
tried to find inconsistencies between Volkswagens and what I
viewed on the ceiling. But it was all there, down to hubcaps,
license plate, chrome, and even the small handle used for
opening the trunk. When I closed my eyes, I was stunned to find
that there was a movie going on on the inside of my eyelids.
Flash...a simple country scene with red farmhouse, blue sky,
white clouds, yellow path meandering over green hills to the
horizon. Flash...same scene, orange house, brown sky, red
clouds, yellow path, violet fields... Flash...Flash...Flash.

The flashes came about once a heartbeat. Each flash brought the
same simple scene into view, but each time with a different set
of colors...exquisitely deep hues, and astonishingly harmonious
in their juxtaposition. Since then I have smoked occasionally
and enjoyed it thoroughly...

I smile, or sometimes even laugh out loud at the pictures on the
insides of my eyelids," Mr. X/Sagan wrote.

Even so, he remained the astute scientific observer:

While my early perceptions were all visual, and curiously
lacking in images of human beings, both of these items have
changed over the intervening years.... I test whether I'm high
by closing my eyes and looking for the flashes. They come long
before there are any alterations in my visual or other
perceptions. I would guess this is a signal-to-noise problem,
the visual noise level being very low with my eyes closed....
[Flashed images resemble] cartoons: just the outlines of
figures, caricatures, not photographs. I think this is simply a
matter of information compression: it would be impossible to
grasp the total content of an image with the information content
of an ordinary photograph, say 108 [100 million] bits, in the
fraction of a second which a flash occupies.

"I find that today a single joint is enough to get me high....
in one movie theater recently I found I could get high just by
inhaling the cannabis smoke which permeated the theater." Pot
enhanced his pleasure in music and food. ("A potato will have a
texture, body, and taste like that of other potatoes, but much
more so.") In sex, too: marijuana "gives an exquisite
sensitivity, but on the other hand it postpones orgasm: in part
by distracting me with the profusion of images passing before my
eyes."

"I find that most of the insights I achieve when high are into
social issues," he added. "I can remember one occasion, taking a
shower with my wife while high, in which I had an idea on the
origins and invalidities of racism in terms of gaussian
distribution curves. It was a point obvious in a way, but rarely
talked about. I drew the curves in soap on the shower wall, and
went to write the idea down. One idea led to another, and at the
end of about an hour of extremely hard work I found I had
written 11 short essays on a wide range of social, political,
philosophical, and human biological topics...I have used them in
university commencement addresses, public lectures, and in my
books....

"...If I find in the morning a message from myself the night
before informing me that there is a world around us which we
barely sense, or that we can become one with the universe, or
even that certain politicians are desperately frightened men, I
may tend to disbelieve; but when I'm high I know about this
disbelief. And so I have a tape in which I exhort myself to take
such remarks seriously. I say "Listen closely, you sonofabitch
of the morning! This stuff is real!"

Sagan added: "I have on a few occasions been forced to drive in
heavy traffic when high. I've negotiated it with no difficulty
at all, although I did have some thoughts about the marvelous
cherry-red color of traffic lights."







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                              Re: UFO Ridicule

From: bruce maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 1999 23:50:35 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 11:08:06 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO Ridicule


 >Date: Sat, 21 Aug 1999 20:37:33 +0100
 >To: updates@globalserve.net
 >From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
 >Subject: UFO Ridicule

 >If ebk and the List will indulge me, I'd like to come back to a
 >topic which was being discussed before those British subscribers
 >who use Demon Internet were temporarily evicted from the List by
t>heir ISP, for reasons which are still not entirely clear.

 >Jerome Clark was insistent that psycho-socially oriented
 >ufologists and "pelicanists" (delightful phrase which we must
 >all use as much as possible) were inclined to adopt sceptical
 >positions because they feared ridicule from some ill-defined
 >establishment if people started to think that they might believe
i>n the objective existence of a hitherto unknown physical
 >phenomenon - possibly extraterrestrial - as a source of UFO
 >reports.

<snip>

 >I would be interested to hear from any ufologists who *have*
 >been so overcome by the chill winds of ridicule that they have
 >moved to a public position of "ridicule avoidance" as described
 >by Jerome Clark. I fully understand that they might not wish to
 >discuss this on the List, but if they were to reply privately to
 >my e-mail address I will naturally keep their names
 >confidential.

 >The other possibility, of course, is that there is no such fear
 >of ridicule amongst ufologists generally, apart from in the
 >specific circumstance I mention above, that sceptical ufologists
 >have arrived at their sceptical positions through a study of the
 >evidence they have come across, and that Jerome Clark is talking
 >through his hat.

 >Just a thought.
<
Just a thought:

Mr. Rimmer's "other possibilty" is the likely choice. It seems
to me that "pelicanists" are part of the "Failure of UFO
Skepticism" which is to advance "prosaic explanations" which
cannot withstand extensive analysis.   The discussions which
ensue absorb a huge amount of "bandwidth."

We now have a Zamorra/Socorro discussion which
is  "demanding" daily feeding, with pelicanists replaced by
"balloonists."

Previously it was Arnold, for which the term "pelicanist" was
invented.

In each case we have an explanation which has _some_
similarities to the reported phenomenon is proposed as _the_
explanation and then the question is "why _can't_ it be..." a
pelican or a balloon?

In both cases there are quantitive as well as qualitative
reasons to reject (Draw A Map;  30 foot balloon size at least),
but these seem to fly over the heads of pelican/balloon/ists.

Anyway, I now "look forward" to the "pelicanization" of
McMinnville and numerous other classic sightings. (Anyone want
to tackle New Zealand, with the color movies that most people
don't even know exist?)





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                              Re: UFO Ridicule

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 99 09:36:36 PDT
Fwd Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 13:57:06 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO Ridicule


 >Date: Sat, 21 Aug 1999 20:37:33 +0100
 >To: updates@globalserve.net
 >From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
 >Subject: UFO Ridicule


Hi, John,

 >Jerome Clark was insistent that psycho-socially oriented
 >ufologists and "pelicanists" (delightful phrase which we must
 >all use as much as possible) were inclined to adopt sceptical
 >positions because they feared ridicule from some ill-defined
 >establishment if people started to think that they might believe
 >in the objective existence of a hitherto unknown physical
 >phenomenon - possibly extraterrestrial - as a source of UFO
 >reports.

What is your obsession with the notion of an "establishment"?
It's a word I have not used but (if memory serves) you have
now employed more than once in this discussion.  The only
failure to define here is yours.  Exactly what "establishment"
are you talking about?  I don't think I've heard this word this
often since the 1960s.

 >Now I can understand that some people, largely tenured
 >academicians, could feel that their UFO research might be seen,
 >by some people in authority over them, to reflect badly on their
 >academic position. Whatever the rights and wrongs of the case,
 >John Mack is an obvious example here.

 >I can also see that some UFO witnesses, with no other links into
 >the field, might be concerned what neighbours and employers
 >might think if their experiences became subject to general
 >gossip and sensational reporting.

Again, you are addressing a subject I didn't raise. I was
discussing ridicule, not "gossip and sensational reporting."
Not at all the same thing.

 >What I cannot see is why experienced, long-time ufologists,
 >whose employment has no possible connection to ufology (to pick
 >an example at random, librarians employed by a local council),
 >who have no particular connection to the academic world, and who
 >couldn't give a bugger what their casual aquaintances might
 >think of their interest in UFOs (or indeed, whose casual
 >aquaintances are equally unlikely to be concerned) should be so
 >overcome by the fear of ridicule.

For a simple reason, John: most human beings -- even most
librarians --don't like to be made fun of.  You seem, absurdly,
to have reduced all of us to the sum of our financial interests.
By adopting what you yourself concede to be a pelicanist
position, you have effectively ensured that you are not one of
those iconoclastic ufologists who question the conventional
wisdom on the matter, and thereby you have immunized yourself
from ridicule.

 >I would be interested to hear from any ufologists who *have*
 >been so overcome by the chill winds of ridicule that they have
 >moved to a public position of "ridicule avoidance" as described
 >by Jerome Clark. I fully understand that they might not wish to
 >discuss this on the List, but if they were to reply privately to
 >my e-mail address I will naturally keep their names
 >confidential.

Look to your soul, my friend.  Magonia and the larger PSH crowd
of which it is a part are always going on and on about
unconscious motivations of which witnesses and non-PSH theorists
are unaware but which nonetheless, according to you guys, drive
them to certain experiences, actions, and behaviors.

At the same time PSH types and pelicanists --if there is a
difference any longer between them, and your remarks above
(happily from my point of view) acknowledge the obvious: there
aren't -- go bonkers if you suggest that they may have their own
unconscious motivations. I am suggesting one likely explanation
for the PSHers' curious desire to domestic the UFO phenomenon.
Besides assuring their own intellectual and cultural
respectability, the effort turns the UFO phenomenon into
something sufficiently trivial that it can be managed by a small
journal published out of the curiously named John Dee Cottage in
London. If you are to believe Magonia, the UFO phenomenon need
not threaten a single orthodox belief or bourgeois sensibility.
I'm sure all of this makes you feel good, even if its
contribution to ufology's most interesting -- and troubling --
questions ends up being negligible.


 >The other possibility, of course, is that there is no such fear
 >of ridicule amongst ufologists generally, apart from in the
 >specific circumstance I mention above, that sceptical ufologists
 >have arrived at their sceptical positions through a study of the
 >evidence they have come across, and that Jerome Clark is talking
 >through his hat.

Nah.  Another transparent PSH attempt to cast a potentially
troubling question into the psychic wilderness.

 >Just a thought.

Not much of one, I'm afraid.

Jerry Clark





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                           WSJ Article on Bigelow

From: Brian Straight <brians@mdbs.com>
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 10:57:31 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 13:59:37 -0400
Subject: WSJ Article on Bigelow


For those interested, today's Wall Street Journal has a front
page (and quite substantial) article on Robert Bigelow.

Brian

[Note this post was delayed 24 hours --ebk]






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                     Re: Kenneth Arnold's 'Flying Discs'

From: Asgeir W. Skavhaug <asge-s@online.no>
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 20:33:57 +0200
Fwd Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 15:37:20 -0400
Subject: Re: Kenneth Arnold's 'Flying Discs'


 >From: Asgeir W. Skavhaug <asge-s@online.no>
 >Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 20:06:24 +0200
 >Fwd Date: Sat, 24 Jul 1999 22:56:46 -0400
 >Subject: Re: Kenneth Arnold's 'Flying Discs'


 >>From: James Easton <pulsar@compuserve.com>
 >>Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 12:07:00 -0400
 >>Fwd Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 16:53:08 -0400


 >>Subject: Kenneth Arnold's 'Flying Discs'


 >>In response to various comments concerning the recently
 >>published proposal that Kenneth Arnold's celebrated, inaugural
 >>'UFO' (not 'flying saucer') sighting of 24 June, 1947, wasresolved.
 >>The two main accounts which Arnold gave of the entire incident
 >>were in a letter he subsequently sent to the US Air Force and in
 >>his much later book, 'The Coming of the Saucers'. It doesn't
 >>help matters that both accounts seem to be significantlydifferent.

 ><snip>

 >>Alternatively, having looked at the full picture of Arnold's
 >>various reports, inconsistencies and proclivity to make some
 >>claims which at times bordered on the absurd, I'm satisfied that
 >>overall there's sufficient evidence why a formation of White
 >>Pelicans is demonstrably the 'best fit' by a long way for
 >>Arnold's nine, perplexing, 'flying discs'.


 >>(C) James Easton
 >>22 July, 1999.

 >James & List,

 >Is it possible to show any real in-flight photos of these White
 >Pelicans, included in a mail on this List? Or, maybe some videofilm?


Hi List,

(Warning! This mail contains some pelican info, and is primarily
intended for birders/"pelicanists".)


Here are a couple of URLs regarding in flight photos of the AW
pelicans:

A:

http://www.mbr-pwrc.usgs.gov/id/framlst/i1250id.html
  (This URL also includes a summer map. This map are based on
  Breeding Bird Survey, BBS, data. The index to abundance is the
  count on survey routes, sum of 50, 3-min point counts. This
  index is about what you would expect to see in 2.5 hours of
  roadside birding, if you are a very good birder. Remember, the
  BBS is conducted in June.)

Notice that specifically _one_ of the birds in the in-flight
photo (click on the photo to enlarge) closely resembles a disc
(!!) (or disk), when watched at the bird's in-flight level.

B:

http://mamba.bio.uci.edu/~pjbryant/biodiv/birds/pelecaniformes/070147.htm


Notice that "when flying, they (i.e., the AW pelicans) seem to
'sparkle' as the light plays off of their white and black
feathers.", i.e.,

http://sazoo-aq.org/pelicans.htm



Also notice that "during the spring breeding season, both sexes
sprout a temporary _disk-like_  (!!) horn on the center of the
top of the bill. The horn drops off when incubation begins",
i.e.,

http://www.webh.com/grandlake/pelicans/white.htm


About movies of them in flight, this might be provided "perhaps
not immediately, but soon", i.e.,

http://ecocanada.com/seepel/messages/264.html


Regards,
Asgeir





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                    Re: UFO Video Capture Pics (May '99)

From: Sean Jones <tedric@tedric.demon.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 20:22:34 +0100
Fwd Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 15:41:27 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO Video Capture Pics (May '99)


 >From: Ben Field <ben@abcfield.force9.co.uk>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
 >Subject: UFO Video Capture Pics (May '99)
 >Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 21:49:19 +0100


Hi Ben, Errol, All

 >I received a video from a couple in the UK that captured a UFO
 >while they were on holiday, attached to this email are a few
 >images captured from the video.

 >My opinion is that it looks like an advertising "blimp", but I
 >am hoping some other people may be able to tell me if they have
 >seen anything similar. The UFO moved fairly slowly from right to
 >left.

 >Location and dates:

 >Day sighting took place: Saturday
 >Day (date): 01
 >Month sighting took place: May
 >Year sighting took place: 1999

 >Time sighting took place: 8.00/9.00approx
 >am/pm: PM

 >Description of area where sighting took place: Country. By Motor
 >Museum. Caravan Site at Stanmore Hall, Bridgenorth Shropshire.

 >Nearest town: Bridgenorth
 >Country: Shropshire

I spoke to Spoke to Emily Williams of "Virgin Airships and
Balloons" on Monday 23/Aug/1999 and she said that there was not
one in the area, unless there was a "stray" but none where
reported.

So I hope that clarifies the Virgin balloon theory :-)
--
     In an infinite universe infinitely anything is possible.
                        Sean Jones
  Homepage--http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Zone/1745/index.htm
             UFO page--http://www.tedric.demon.co.uk/





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                                 Project ALP

From: John Hayes <ufoinfo@ukgateway.net>
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 20:52:55 +0100
Fwd Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 15:46:26 -0400
Subject: Project ALP


Dear Errol,

I received this message today and am passing it on to the list
in case it is of interst to anyone.


From: Erol Erkmen <andromeda1@turk.net>
To: <webmaster@ufoinfo.com>
Subject: project alp
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 21:11:23 +0300


Maybe you can save a life


TUVPO is starting a research project about UFOlogy.

Any information forwarded to us will be added to our data bank
and kept as an important source in determining the connection
between ALP's and earthquakes. TUVPO would be very happy to work
with organizations and institutions who could contribute to this
project. TUVPO believes that even the smallest amount of
information might be beneficial to save peoples' lives.At the
moment, the research project consists of finding out if a
relationship exists between ALP reports and seismic movements,
and filing a report. For a report to be valid, it must contain
seismic movement reports in the region where the ALP's have been
seen. Seismic movements must be recorded no later than 30 days
after observation.

The observation of ALP's must be documented by photos,
eyewitness report or the media. Reports which do not carry the
above features will not be taken into consideration. Any person
or institution who would like to participate in this project may
send their reports from their own region or from regions (all
over the world) they are able to reach by Internet. The
participants will be published in our web page. All you need to
do is write your name, surname, e-mail address (Hotmail or any
other similar free e-mail addresses will not be accepted) to
kayt@tuvpoorg.cjb.net

Project alp: http://members.tripod.com/~ufolojist/alp.html
=============================================

Regards,

John Hayes

ufoinfo@ukgateway.net
webmaster@ufoinfo.com

UFOINFO:- http://ufoinfo.com

Archives for UFO Roundup/Filer's Files/UK UFO Network Bulletin/
AUFORN Australian UFO Reports and Experiences







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                      Re: 'New?' FBI memo about Roswell

From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 16:11:50 EDT
Fwd Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 15:50:45 -0400
Subject: Re: 'New?' FBI memo about Roswell


 >Date: Sun, 22 Aug 1999 10:03:35 -0700
 >To: updates@globalserve.net
 >From: Neil Morris <neil@adm1.ph.man.ac.uk>
 >Subject: Re: 'New?' FBI memo about Roswell


 >>From: Michel M. Deschamps <ufoman@ican.net> >>To: UFO UpDates
- Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >>Subject: Re: 'New?' FBI
memo about Roswell >>Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 02:27:29 -0400

 >>>From: Henny van der Pluijm <hvdp@worldonline.nl> >>>Date:
Wed, 18 Aug 1999 04:35:02 +0200 (MET DST) >>>To: UFO UpDates -
Toronto <updates@globalserve.net> >>>Subject: 'New?' FBI memo
about Roswell

 >>>Found this at
http://www.space.com/area51/websightings_812.html

 >>>For old-school UFOlogists, the Paranormal News published an
FBI >>>memo concerning the 1947 Roswell object and 12 pages of
Project

<snip>

 >>>reflector, but that telephone conversation between their
office >>>and Wright Field had not borne out this belief."

<snip>

 >FWIW as I read it, it's _not_ the cover story but a strong hint
 >as to what _actually_ happend that evening.

 >It does _totally_ support the "Cover Story" scenario  because
of >the facts given being  _totally_ out of place in the
timeline in >view of what was else being _fed_ to the news media
that night.

 >This _URGENT_ teletype was sent out at 6.17pm FW time YET at
 >_5.30pm_ FW time, 45mins _before_, Maj Kirton of the the
 >Intellegence Office of the FWAAF was informing a reporter for
 >the Dallas Morning News that the debris was that of a High
 >Altitude Weather Balloon, nothing to make a fuss over, no need
 >to fly it on to WF, end of story. Please also note this was 1hr
 >_before_ Irving Newton's ID of the debris was sent out on the
AP >wire (6.30pm FW) AND 30 mins _before_ Newton even came ON
 >DUTY(6.00pm FW).

 >To cap it all Kirton was identified as the AF contact who gave
 >the information in the teletype to the FBI Dallas office,
 >presumably shortly before the teletype was sent, after all it
 >was marked URGENT, and I doubt the FBI would sit on this info
 >for very long. So, 5.30pm the debris was a mundane Weather
 >Balloon for the press, and stopping at Fort Worth AAF yet for
 >the FBI at aprox 6.00pm AND reported by the self same Maj
 >Kirton "telephonic conversation" with the techie's at WF "had
 >not borne out that belief" ie, it _wasn't_ 'mundane debris' and
 >it _was_ being flown on to Wright Field!. Yet at 6.30pm on the
 >AP Wire, Irving Newton says again it'a a mundane Weather
 >Balloon. Later that evening, radio reporter Joe Wilson in
 >Chicago stated he had spoken shortly before the broadcast with
 >officials at Wright Field and they were _still_ _awaiting_ the
 >debris arrival. Perhaps FWAAF hadn't told them it was just a
 >weather balloon and wouldn't be coming?.

And let us not forget that Star-Telegram photographer J. Bond
Johnson said that General Ramey told him that it was a weather
balloon when Johnson arrived to take the photographs earlier in
the day. Johnson told me, "I took two pictures [which we now
know is probably six] and then they [Ramey] said... 'Oh, we've
found out what it is and you know, it's a weather balloon and so
forth.'"

In a second interview, Johnson said, "I posed General Ramey with
this debris. At that time I was briefed on the idea that it was
not a flying disk as first reported but, in fact, was a weather
balloon that had crashed."

So, the story of the weather balloon was in place before any
reporters arrived in General Ramey's office.

KRandle, Ph.D.





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                  Re: Abductions: A Funny Thing Happened...

From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 15:18:45 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 15:52:22 -0400
Subject: Re: Abductions: A Funny Thing Happened...


 >From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >Date: Sun, 22 Aug 1999 00:41:09 EDT
 >Subject: Re: Abductions: A Funny Thing Happened...
 >To: updates@globalserve.net

<snip>

 >I'll say this much.  You certainly got Klass.

 >J. Jaime Gesundt, researcher, philosopher and mean spirited when
 >it comes to people with closed minds.  Why?  Because sometimes
 >those minds are so shut tight, that there is some concern as to
 >whether there is even one in there at all!

 >"And what's a sweetheart like you, doin' in a dump like this?"
 >(Dylan)


Quoting Dylan:

"When you're lost in the rain in Juarez and it's Easter time,
too/ And gravity fails and negativity won't pull you through"

What's a guy gonna do? Call people names?

Dennis






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                       Re: Films of UFOs and Sasquatch

From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net>
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 02:48:18 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 15:56:49 -0400
Subject: Re: Films of UFOs and Sasquatch


 >From: Royce J. Myers III <evidence@hotmail.com>
 >To: updates@globalserve.net
 >Subject: JFK: Films of UFOs and Sasquatch
 >Date: Sun, 22 Aug 1999 12:41:47 PDT

 >Hello to all -

<snip>

 >This person reported that he had conversations with JFK
 >regarding UFOs. He had also stated that JFK would watch
 >classified films of UFOs and Sasquatch at the Pentagon.

Hi Royce,

I always wondered what Dennis Stacy's (Sasquatch) connection to
UFOs was. Thanx for clearing that up! :)

As far back as the early 60's eh? <lol>

Peace and best wishes for all our friends in Southern Texas
toughing out the storm.

John Velez
________________________________________________
                                  jvif@spacelab.net
                     ABDUCTION INFORMATION CENTER
                             http://www.if-aic.com/
  "Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind."
________________________________________________







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                Re: 'Doorway Amnesia' & Modern Day Abductees?

From: John Velez<jvif@spacelab.net>
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 03:00:12 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 15:58:50 -0400
Subject: Re: 'Doorway Amnesia' & Modern Day Abductees?


 >Date: Sun, 22 Aug 1999 17:07:27 -0500
 >From: Amy Hebert <yelorose@swbell.net>
 >Subject: Re: 'Doorway Amnesia' & Modern Day Abductees?
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>


 >>From: Roy Hale <roy.hale@virgin.net>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
 >>Subject: 'Doorway Amnesia &  Modern Day Abductees ?
 >>Date: Sat, 21 Aug 1999 15:13:38 +0100


 >>If the Abduction researchers on this list could enlighten us if
 >>this is the case with modern day Abductees. Does the memory of
 >>entering the craft always get wiped? Is this what you have found
 >>to be the case?


 >Roy, you have raised an interesting point!

 >Reflecting upon your question, I came up with three possible
 >reasons why modern day abduction stories seem to skip the
 >"doorway" process:

<snip>

Hi Amy, hi All,

I'd just like to comment on the following:

 >3. Most of the cases we learn about now may be influenced by
 >researcher bias which tends to "stereotype" events according to
 >what the *researcher* believes happened or what he/she thinks
 >will be more "acceptable" to the public

I would hope that researchers who ignore testimony in favor of
their own beliefs/biases are in the extreme minority. The
"abduction researchers" (which is a misnomer, most of them are
investigative authors/reporters) that I have met are men who are
reporting on what they have been told by the experiencers.

Not using folks as a platform to advance their own agenda. (As
many would have you believe.)

What you suggest in your statement above is that researchers of
such low standards and ethics are 'common.' Not from what I've
seen Amy.

 >There are other, less publicized cases in which abductees
 >remember, even without hypnosis, being taken aboard a vehicle
 >via a ramp or stairs.  We just don't hear about them because
 >they do not fit the "average" case scenario and thus tend to be
 >rejected and/or ignored by mainstream abductology.

I didn't respond to this thread originally because;

1. The question was asked of "abduction researchers" - which I
am not.  And...

2. The only recollection that I have of an access door came up
during a hypnosis session. (Material that I do not recall
consciously and clearly, I have a tendency not to trust or put
much stock in.)

Regards,

John Velez
________________________________________________
                                  jvif@spacelab.net
                     ABDUCTION INFORMATION CENTER
                             http://www.if-aic.com/
  "Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind."
________________________________________________







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                       Re: Films of UFOs and Sasquatch

From: George Barkouris <apurimac@ath.forthnet.gr>
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 12:30:51 +0200
Fwd Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 16:01:48 -0400
Subject: Re: Films of UFOs and Sasquatch


 >From: Royce J. Myers III <evidence@hotmail.com>
 >To: updates@globalserve.net
 >Subject: JFK: Films of UFOs and Sasquatch
 >Date: Sun, 22 Aug 1999 12:41:47 PDT

 >Hello to all -

 >I was wondering if anyone remembers hearing about a man in
 >either the Air Force or the Secret Service who served aboard Air
 >Force One during JFK's presidency.

 >This person reported that he had conversations with JFK
 >regarding UFOs. He had also stated that JFK would watch
 >classified films of UFOs and Sasquatch at the Pentagon.

 >I vaguely remember hearing his story on either Heff Rense or Art
 >Bell. Any help would be greatly apreciated. Thank you.

The name is William Holden. The man was a steward on Air Force
One. On June 27, 1963 he had a conversation with JFK about
UFO's.

You can read 'Beyond Roswell' by Michael Hesemann and Philip
Mantle, Ch.9 page 138 about that.

Regards,

George Barkouris

Athens, Greece





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             CPR-Canada News: New Formation - Edmonton, Alberta

From: Paul Anderson - TMP / CPR-Canada <psa@direct.ca>
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 23:54:02 -0800
Fwd Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 16:00:27 -0400
Subject: CPR-Canada News: New Formation - Edmonton, Alberta


CPR-Canada News
News and Updates from Circles Phenomenon Research Canada

http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Cavern/3310


New Formation - Edmonton, Alberta

August 23, 1999

_____________________________


Editor:
Paul Anderson
Director
CPR-Canada

_____________________________


Preliminary Report - August 23

Just received a report, courtesy Gordon Kijek of the Alberta UFO
Study Group (http://www.planet.eon.net/~kijek/), of a
"quintuplet" crop formation within the city limits of Edmonton,
Alberta. Located on the University of Alberta Farm in south
Edmonton.

This is the fifth report for Canada now this year.

Reported by Dr. James Butler, Professor, Conservation Biology,
Parks, Wildlife, and Environmental Interpretation (University of
Alberta).

Found August 23, 1999. In mixed wheat. One large 20m circle with
four satellite circles in almost exact compass headings.
Satellites all slightly different diameters but all just under
7m across. The centre circle is connected to the satellites by
pathways approx. 3m wide, and the crop is laid down facing
toward the satellites. The large centre circle is slightly more
oval than circular. All five circles are laid in a clockwise
direction.

Dr. Butler reports "no swollen nodes", broken stems and lifted
soil at the roots".

May be a prank, but we are awaiting further details and images,
and CPR-Canada / CPR-Alberta will conduct its own ground
investigation ASAP.

The Edmonton Journal interviewed Dr. Butler and the article is
to be in tomorrow's paper (Tuesday, August 24, 1999).

_____________________________


Circle Phenomena in Canada Report Archive 1999:

http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Cavern/3310/1999.html

A reminder for all Canadian subscribers / readers - your
assistance is welcome and needed - ANY reports of other
possible circles this year, please do let us know as soon as
possible! See Reporting and Field Research Guidelines on the
web site for more information:

http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Cavern/3310/reporting.html

_____________________________


CPR-Canada News is the e-mail update service of
Circles Phenomenon Research Canada, and is published
periodically or as breaking news develops, with the
latest news and information and is available free by
subscription; to be added to or removed from the mailing
list, send your request, including "subscribe CPR-Canada
News" or "unsubscribe CPR-Canada News" and e-mail
address to:

psa@direct.c

CPR-Canada welcomes your reports and submissions.
Forward all correspondence to:


CIRCLES PHENOMENON RESEARCH CANADA
Circles Phenomenon Research International

Main Office

Suite 202 - 2086 West 2nd Avenue
Vancouver, BC  V6J 1J4  Canada
Tel / Fax: 604.731.8522
E-Mail: psa@direct.ca
Web: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Cavern/3310


� Circles Phenomenon Research Canada, 1999







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                  Re: Abductions: A Funny Thing Happened...

From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 09:12:22 EDT
Fwd Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 16:05:36 -0400
Subject: Re: Abductions: A Funny Thing Happened...


 >From: Joseph Polanik <jpolanik@mindspring.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
 >Subject: Re: Abductions: A Funny Thing Happened...
 >Date: Sun, 22 Aug 1999 22:38:13 GMT


 >>Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 20:30:36 -0500
 >>To: updates@globalserve.net
 >>From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
 >>Subject: Abductions: A Funny Thing Happened...

 >>List,

 >>One aspect of the UFO phenomenon I occasionally think about (to
 >>the chagrin of some) is the abduction angle.

 >>For all practical intent & purposes it began in 1961, with the
 >>Betty & Barney Hill experience, in the same way that the UFO
 >>phenomenon itself can be said to begin with the 1947 Arnold
 >>sighting: i.e., yes, earlier precedents (such as the 1957
 >>Villas-Boas case) can be found, but we all know what we're
 >>talking about here.

  <snip to the rhetorical question>

 >>So how is it, ... that we can claim more close encounters
 >>than ever with little corroborating evidence to back it up, when
 >>our sensors have multiplied many times over?

 >Why is it that we _assume_ that one phenomenon (UFOs) has
 >anything to do with the other (abduction/contact experiences)?

 >I emphasized 'assume' because I am amazed at the variability in
 >the willingness to evaluate evidence.

 >It's almost universally accepted that the government is lying
 >about this issue because they've admitted it. Only a skeptic
 >would be gullible enough to believe that they've finished lying.

 >There is a widespread willingness to consider evidence that
 >radar contact has been made with objects (presumably craft) not
 >produced on Earth.

 >There is a lesser, but growing, willingness to consider that
 >something extraordinary is happening to so-called abductees and
 >contactees.

 >Where is the willingness to soberly evaluate the evidence as to
 >whether one phenomena is related to the other, and, if so, how?

We (Russ Estes, Bill Cone and I) have tried to do this in 'The
Abduction Enigma'.

 >Is there any evidence that would selectively discriminate
 >between these theories:

 >1. That the same off-world beings that pilot the craft are also
 >perpetrating the abductions.

 >2. That abductions are Out-of-Body Experiences, Lucid Dreams or
 >cases of Awareness during Sleep Paralysis that are unrecognized
 >or incompletely recalled.

You have left out sleep paralysis, vivid dreams, hoax,
psychological manipulation by hypno-therapists and a couple of
other explanations.

 >I know that there are advocates of each point of view. But if we
 >were to sit down to soberly sift the evidence available now, do
 >we find any that is simultaneously consistent with one theory
 >but inconsistent with the other?

We find that abduction stories have existed since humans began
recording their thoughts. We find parallels in pop culture. We
find parallels in the tales of Satanic Ritual Abuse and tales of
Multiple Personality Disorder.


KRandle, Ph.D.





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   Aug > Aug 24

                     Re: Socorro: The Zamora 'Insignia'

From: Larry Robinson  S/AP/EIS Kinesiology <lrobins@indiana.edu>
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 13:36:38 -0500 (EST)
Fwd Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 16:13:06 -0400
Subject: Re: Socorro: The Zamora 'Insignia'


Socorro: The Author Responds

First, I suggest that you read my web page before arguing the
contents. Many of your arguments were already addressed.

It is at:

http://php.indiana.edu/~lrobins/howisoco.htm

Unfortunately, due to decisions beyond my control, the site is
not robot-searchable. Our administrators are so afraid of
crackers that they have denied us many privileges, including
robots, pasting from other emails and emailing through web page
forms.

Addressing the comments of all who have posted:

1. The burner used in modern hot-air balloons was invented
    in 1962. The balloons were very rare in 1964, but several
    races had already occurred.

2. The metal triangular platform was used until 1965, when
    a suitable basket became available. I have photos of them,
    including some copied from a Time magazine article
    published before the sighting. Zamora's "legs" would have
    been the A-frame over the platform (which explains why only
    two legs were seen).

3. Newer burners are quieter and more efficient than the
    original ones.

4. A zinc-iron alloy is found on the surface of galvanized pipe.

5. At the first sighting of the flame, the roof of the car may
    have hidden the envelope of the balloon, or the sunglasses
    may have made it match the sky.

6. NO witness can correctly estimate the size, distance, speed,
    or altitude of an object, unless one of these happens:

    a. The witness knows what the object is (good size estimate).
    b. The object comes within 20 feet of the witness.
    c. The object passes in front of and behind known objects.
    d. The object casts a shadow or leaves marks in a known
       location.
    e. Other measuring means are used.

    If the witness makes an incorrect guess of the identity of
    the object, all size, distance, speed, and altitude
    estimates are distorted by the guess.

    Pilots and air support personnel can routinely make good
    estimates of the distance, speed, or altitude of airplanes.
    But they have one advantage the UFO witness does not have:
    They know the objects they are looking at are airplanes, and
    so have a pretty good size estimate. A UFO can be the size
    of a bug, a building, or a planet. Attempts to estimate
    distance, speed, and altitude fail when the unknown object
    is assumed to be the size of an airplane.

    It is amazing that UFOlogists habitually ignore these facts.
    They routinely take an estimate of size, distance, speed, or
    altitude given by a witness to be an ironclad fact, instead
    of a very rough guess based on the sizes of known vehicles.
    Even trained observers cannot find out this information
    without the aids listed above. Many guesses are off by
    factors of 100, and quite a few are off by factors of
    100,000 to 1,000,000. Many air traffic controllers made this
    last mistake before the invention of RADAR, radioing landing
    instructions to bright planets (especially Venus) that were
    suddenly uncovered by clouds.

7. Using USGS maps of the area, I determined that Zamora
    underestimated the distance to the landing site by a factor
    of 3. Scaling up the distance also scales up the men and the
    balloon envelope to normal size.

8. Likewise, if Zamora ran as he said he did, he broke the world
    record for sprinting. Zamora's time-sense seems to be off.

9. Likewise, the other drivers' estimates were no better without
    any of the above factors to help them.

10. Zamora could not identify the balloon because he never heard
     of a noisy balloon. Neither had the Air Force officers (the
     original project was for the Navy).

11. The logo was for purposes of sport balloon racing, not
     advertizing. Most balloons in such sports still carry a
     symbolic ID inside a circle. They are used to identify the
     balloons for scoring purposes, like numbers on race cars and
     football jerseys.

12. The triangular platform  was made of a pipe or welded metal
     frame, with a mesh metal grid (similar to those found on fire
     escapes) on top. It could very well have made the marks.

13. The bottom of the object (if it was indeed a balloon) was
     never seen clearly by Zamora. First it was hidden by terrain
     (from both viewpoints), then he lost his glasses.

14. The wind and the rough terrain should cause a rough landing.
     This caused the deep marks, and probably the burnt brush.
     The platform might even have turned over.

15. The takeoff happens in these stages (I have seen this many
     times):

     a. The envelope is inflated on the ground (from the account,
        it never deflated; it just lost lift).
     b. The burner is fired SIDEWAYS to lift the envelope. As the
        envelope lifts, the burner is angled up (the initial
        hovering). This takes 10 to 20 seconds.
     c. Another blast of the burner is used to lift the craft
        off of the ground (the horizontal motion).

16. The object did NOT disappear in the distance, but went
     behind terrain.

17. The object stayed low enough on takeoff that Zamora probably
     never saw the (edge-on) platform -- if only he hadn't lost
     his glasses.

18. Three of the marks coincide almost exactly with the
     dimensions of the platforms. The fourth could have been
     from an early strike, from the platform turning over,
     from the mouth ring of the envelope, or from accessory
     equipment.

19. Zamora stated that "the wind was at my back" during the
     sighting from the location where he parked. Other
     accounts (by investigators) of wind direction were probably
     reversed by the false assumption (shared by many UFOlogists)
     that a south wind blows toward the south (a south wind is
     defined as coming from the south). Even Hynek has this
     reversed, not just here but in other sightings.

20. If the wind speed had been brisk, the chase car might have
     been left behind (as they also are where roads are sparse).
     Also (unless you knew what you were looking for) would you
     recognize a chase car or grasp its significance? The first
     time I saw one, I had no idea what it was for. The trailer
     looked like it had a small airboat (for swamps) on it.

21. The first Vulcoon had a thirty foot (diameter) envelope, and
     a parachute-style harness to hold one man. Later models were
     bigger (40, 50, and 65 ft) and used platforms.

22. The roar is much louder if you are in a cone where you can
     hear the echo from inside the envelope. In the modern
     balloon, the basket removes most of this, but the open mesh
     platform would not.

23. I have the 1966 article. The 65 ft. balloon had an enclosed
     triangular gondola painted orange. The envelope of this
     balloon had orange and white stripes. It is NOT the article
     I am looking for.

24. Unfortunately, I was not yet interested in UFOs when I read
     the article by the balloonists. I found out about the
     Socorro case later, after the magazine had been returned. I
     do have a drawing I had made of the balloon at the time I
     read the article (I had wanted to make a flying model of it
     at the time). It has the International Paper logo on it.

     Other items found in that spiral notebook date the contents
     to a period encompassing February 1965 to January 1967. I
     first learned of the Socorro case in March 1967.



If we can't even agree on the first year of the 3rd millennium
(it's really 2001), how can we ever solve any UFO case?

By the way, if someone ever does catch an extraterrestrial space
ship, it can't be called a UFO anymore, because it is no longer
an Unidentified Flying Object.



----   X-   @=   =_o   <o>   >-o   =-I->   <-   88->  =>X   ----
Larry Robinson S/AP/EIS       lrobins@indiana.edu
Indiana University            (812) 855-5073      Room 42
Kinesiology Dept              http://php.indiana.edu/~lrobins
1025 E 7th St       Rm 112    Hot-air balloons DO make noise!
Bloomington IN 47405-7109






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   Aug > Aug 24

                  Re: Abductions: A Funny Thing Happened...

From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net>
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 12:17:36 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 16:25:45 -0400
Subject: Re: Abductions: A Funny Thing Happened...


 >From: Joseph Polanik <jpolanik@mindspring.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
 >Subject: Re: Abductions: A Funny Thing Happened...
 >Date: Sun, 22 Aug 1999 22:38:13 GMT

 >Is there any evidence that would selectively discriminate
 >between these theories:

 >1. That the same off-world beings that pilot the craft are also
 >perpetrating the abductions.

 >2. That abductions are Out-of-Body Experiences, Lucid Dreams or
 >cases of Awareness during Sleep Paralysis that are unrecognized
 >or incompletely recalled.

 >I know that there are advocates of each point of view. But if we
 >were to sit down to soberly sift the evidence available now, do
 >we find any that is simultaneously consistent with one theory
 >but inconsistent with the other?

Very lucid thinking. To me, though, there are some intermediate
stages -- are abductions physical experiences at all? And if
they are, how do we know they involve the same beings
responsible for UFOs?

I understand Joe's point, though. These two theories are the
main ones out there. One hurdle in answering Joe's question, of
course, is to know what "evidence" is. Abductees claim, with
abduction researchers seconding them, that they have marks on
their bodies that can't be explained, that they wake up in
clothes they didn't go to bed in, that they wake up with
unexplainable stains on their bodies. Are these claims -- and
the visible marks, and garments still bearing the stains --
"evidence"? If we accept these assertions, then abductions would
seem to be real experiences, not lucid dreams or awareness
during sleep paralysis. (Unless we want to assume that the marks
are like stigmata, generated by the mind.)

Then there are many abductees who claim to remember abductions
in which they're taken away in UFOs. The Hill case is only the
most famous of these. Often enough abductees claim to remember
these abductions without hypnosis. Are these accounts
"evidence"? If they are, then they establish an apparent
connection between abduction experiences and UFOs, since the
UFOs are allegedly seen in the sky, then landing, then from the
inside, and, at the end of the experience, flying off again. (Of
course, we wouldn't know for absolute sure that these flying
craft are the same ones seen in UFO sightings. Though what else
would they be?)

Finally (though I suppose this isn't evidence, but simply a
suggestive line of thought) the abduction beings are normally
described as small humanoids. In the days when "occupants," as
they then were gingerly called, were often seen near landed
UFOs, these occupants were almost universally described as small
humanoids. That seems to establish at least a possibility of a
connection between UFO sightings and abductions. (To which
skeptics could reasonably reply: Abductees outside the US don't
report small humanoids as often, and the "small humanoids" in
UFO encounters also seemed to vary greatly, both in appearance
and behavior.)

I'm not, in this post, arguing for the reality of the evidence I
mention, so I hope people won't want to engage me in that
discussion. I'm responding in the spirit of Joe's thoughtful
post, trying to suggest possible ways to answer the very good
question he raised.

Greg Sandow






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   Aug > Aug 24

                     Re: Socorro: The Zamora 'Insignia'

From: Andy Roberts <Brigantia@compuserve.com>
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 12:46:24 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 16:34:45 -0400
Subject: Re: Socorro: The Zamora 'Insignia'


 >Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 03:45:17 -0400
 >From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >Subject: Re: Socorro: The Zamora 'Insignia'
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>

Y'all seem to be missing the point, but I'm happy to
keep trying to get through to you!

Bruce wrote:

 >Yes. And conventional objects used in explanation must have
 >characteristic that mach the reported characteristics.

But many of the characteristics reported by Zamora _do_ match
the appearance and flight characteristics of a hot-air balloon.

<snip>

 >Larry Robinson seems to say it _was_ a hot air balloon. Do you
 >think, based on the above arguments, that it WAS such a balloon.

Unfortunately what I think won't affect reality :-) Because
no-one on this list was there we can only speculate, based on
our interpretations of Zamora's account. There are no 'facts'
beyond this, despite what you may choose to believe about what
he saw.

However, based on what I've read by Robinson, Easton and others,
and of a re-reading of such Zamora stuff as I have, I think it
is a perfectly reasonable suggestion that he *did* see some type
of hot-air balloon.

I would commend anyone interested to hot-foot it to James
Easton's UFO Research List where he has recently posted a fine
and worthy exposition of the Zamor event in relation to it being
a balloon (for some reason he doesn't want it cross-posting, so
I haven't).

If you can struggle through the mounds of pelican feathers you
just might be informed!

 >More like an albatrossist.

Ahh, the humble albatross, much loved by Monty Python, with or
without wafers. Originally, I believe, deemed by those who saw
one to indicate they (not the albatross) were lost at sea
without any idea where they were or were heading. And we've seen
an awful lot of albatrosses on this list lately.

Don Ledger wrote:

 >Ever notice when the argument is weak, they start with the
 >disparaging remarks. Yipping, Jesus give me a break.

'Yipping', Don because the speed and ferocity with which which
many people on this list jump to keep almost anything as a 'UFO'
rather than work toward an explanation, makes me think of
yipping dogs defending their self-determined territory.

 >So you are
 >satisfied with 50% of the facts.

Yes,  - if 50% of the fact support a prosaic explanation, I'd go
with them over 50% of facts which support what, exactly? The
right to keep the Soccorro event unsolved? Seems that way to me.

 >Balloons can't hold stable in
 >the wind. They don't move against the wind. Getting a balloon up
 >and running when its envelope has collasped can't be done in two
 >minutes. Don't buy into any suggestion that it can be done. And
 >20 feet in size? How does that square with two people being
 >lifted off. Its plain impossible.

All arguable - see Easton's exposition. Depends how deflated it
was (and remember again Zamora said it was like a balloon,
possibly indicating it wasn't *that* deflated, if it was one).
The drawing Zamora made looks like - if it was a balloon - that
it was quite well inflated, thus needing relatively little air
to get it off the ground. It also depends on the power of the
burners. Your statement depends on many things - but none of
them disprove a balloon.

 >Andy I love a nice neat
 >explanation but not these, in the same area, same rounded shape,
 >they're both on the same planet explanations. They are too
 >loose.

I never said this was _the_ explanation - merely that it is as
good - better even - than many of the others.

 >You say Zamora said it looked like a balloon, by comparison
 >maybe. If he had said it was as big as a house would you have
 >used that as an explanation.

But he didn't. And houses don't fly. He said it looked like a
balloon, by your own admission 50% of the 'facts' could match a
balloon.

Jerry Clark wrote: (and lawdy Jerry do your posts take some
figuring out!)

 >What are "self-opinionated people," by the way?  Does this
 >phrase have any meaning whatever? What is the opposite of a
 >"self-opinionated person" -- somebody who lets other people
 >dictate his opinions?

In this instance I take the phrase to mean people who are so
certain, so dead set that a prosaic explanation for Soccorro
cannot lie in the balloon hypothesis that their opinion are
driven more by their ego than a desire to examine the case.

 >To my skeptical mind, it seems that what we have here is the
 >problem of pelicanism in a nutshell, and it astounds and worries
 >me.

If I've been able to astound and worry an eminent ufologist by
suggesting an alternate way of looking at Socorro I apologise
most sincerely.

 >In your response you fail even to acknowledge, much less to
 >refute, the quite clear, specific reasons that have led critics
 >to reject the hot-air theory about Socorro.  Instead, we are
 >treated to intimations that something must be wrong with the
 >skeptics, something that you apparently know but the rest of us
 >are too -- fill in the unflattering adjective -- to figure out
 >about ourselves.

Because I am _stressing_ the indicators which *support* the
balloon hypothesis.

 >Your response, such as it is, amounts to little more than
 >tongue-clucking.

I have no idea what noise pelicans or albatrosses make. Let's
say I'm squawking to keep up with the avian analogies eh?

 >You follow it by listing items whose
 >relevance, given the many cited problems with the hot-air
 >theory, you are unable to demonstrate.

The relevance is simply that people have suggested a balloon was
responsible, that a balloon may have been in the area, that many
characteristics Zamora describe match those of balloon
appearance and flight. I am merely supporting a theory which I
believe has relevance and don't want to see it dismissed by
those who would rather seek to keep a classic UFO case
unexplained than admit a terrestrial explantion may be possible.

 > And of course, in common
 >with all pelicanist treatments of Socorro, the associated CE2
 >cases of April 23, 24, and 25 go conveniently unmentioned.

Because they are irrelevant Jerry. The cases you mention don't
describe the same object or flight characteristitcs as that seen
by Zamora.

What's more they took place, what, up to 200 miles away from
Socorro? C'mon............

 >All of this comes, I gather, from your strongly held belief that
 >since UFOs cannot exist

Where have I ever said, or intimated, that Jerry?

I never fail to be boggled by the inablity of some US ufologists
to understand the sceptical position held by many UK ufologists.

As you have said yourself, in private emails discussing how I
should describe my standpoint for my forthcoming IUR article,
the word 'sceptical', to US ufologists indicates debunking. But
that's certainly not my position.

UFOs obviously exist, but are all resolvable - surely you agree
with that? Even should one UFO be resolved as an alien craft
it's still a resolution, and that's what matters. So let's have
less of what my father would call 'silly talk' eh?

 >(and those who think otherwise suffer
 >from certain unnamed intellectual or other maladies),

Only those who won't even accept terrestrial explanations as a
possibility.

 >any
 >counterexplanation -- however lousy, however undemonstrable,
 >however at variance with what we know about a specific case --
 >is preferable.

But in this case the balloon hypothesis (not an explanation) is
valid so your comments are merely opinion. 'Variance with what
we believe' is I think how your sentence should read in this
case.

 >The problem, I think, is not us but you.  Why do
 >you want to believe in something that, from all available
 >evidence, isn't so?

See the foregoing.

 >Again, the pelicanist practice of reinventing a case so that it
 >can be "explained."  We are asked here to believe that Andy
 >Roberts knows better what Zamora saw than Zamora does, even
 >though (unlike the sightings you allude to) his sighting
 >occurred in broad daylight and at close range -- precisely the

Hardly - merely stressing that witnesses are not precise and that
taking all a witness says literally is naive.
And I can supply you with some top quality cases of police
officers (note the plural) seeing and misperceiving (and photographing)
natural phenomena as a UFO in broad daylight, for as
long as an hour.

 >circumstances under which testimony is most likely to be
 >accurate.

See above - it ain't so Jerry.

 > In any event, the practice of reinventing testimony
 >so that it can be explained has been so thoroughly demolished
 >that it's depressing to encounter it here, stated as if so
 >self-evidently true here that it requires no empirical
 >justification or supporting evidence.  All you have to do,
 >apparently, is to declare it, and the subject's closed. Sorry,
 >but it doesn't work that way.

We will just have to disagree on our views about witness
testimony and how ufologists interpret same.

 >(Parenthetically, it's worth noting that you accept eyewitness
 >testimony when it suits your perceived purposes.

Not so. I am prepared to consider witness testimony in
its totality and match it against possibilities. The balloon
hypothesis is a possibility. Therefore.......

 >Thus, we are
 >to believe that, unlike anything else Zamora said, he was
 >dead-on accurate when he allegedly said the object "looked like
 >a balloon." [Which, even if true, would be perfectly normal and
 >natural.  As Hynek noted long ago, witnesses tend immediately to
 >connect their UFO with something familiar and reject that
 >identification only when it becomes clear that it doesn't
 >account for what they're seeing.  It's called the escalation of
 >hypotheses.] In any event, I can't find that quote in my own
 >sources.

Page 858, vol 2, of your excellent UFO Encyclopedia....'I
answered, "It looks like a balloon".'

 >Zamora's first impression, in fact, was not that the
 >object was a balloon.  He thought initially that he was looking
 >at a white car lying either on its side or upside down.

But - and I'm sure you'll correct me if I'm wrong - his
statement that it 'looked like a balloon' was his first verbal
communication as to what he thought the object was.

 >When he
 >realized that wasn't so, he speculated that the craft was an
 >experimental vehicle from nearby White Sands Proving Grounds.)
 >Interestingly, not even Blue Book, desperate as it was to
 >"solve" the case, resorted to the hot-air theory. In his
 >memoirs, frustrated at his inability to account for Zamora's
 >UFO, former Blue Book head Hector Quintanilla was reduced to
 >intimating that Zamora had hoaxed it.  While there's no evidence
 >for that theory, either, it's easier to believe in a hoax here
 >than in a hot-air balloon -- though hot air, sans balloon, has
 >been much in evidence on the pelicanist end of this discussion.

Yeah, yeah Jerry. I aren't saying it *wasn't* a hoax - and nor
can you disprove the hoax hypothesis Jerry.

 >I don't think anybody, based on what we've seen, would doubt
 >that.  I am not a pelicanist, plan never to be one, and couldn't
 >be prouder of the choice I've made.

The wider the range of species we have the better Jerry! Can I
have my tea now?

Happy Trails

Andy






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   Aug > Aug 24

                 Re: Fireball Likely End Of Perseid Meteors

From: GT McCoy <gtmccoy@harborside.com>
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 06:51:12 -0700
Fwd Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 16:22:49 -0400
Subject: Re: Fireball Likely End Of Perseid Meteors


 >Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 01:12:26
 >To: updates@globalserve.net
 >From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@get2net.dk>
 >Subject: Fireball Likely End Of Perseid Meteors


Hello, list, Stig

 >Source: The Denver Post,

 >http://www.denverpost.com/news/news0817d.htm

 >Stig

 >***

 >Fireball likely end of Perseid meteors

 >By Karen E. Crummy
 >Special to The Denver Post

 >**

 >August 17 - If you saw it, you're not alone.


<snip>

Seems like those slow meteors are gittin' more common lately,or
was 133 per just a misprint

-GT McCoy





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   Aug > Aug 24

                           NASA Propulsion Awards

From: Terry Blanton <commengr@bellsouth.net>
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 13:21:50 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 16:36:30 -0400
Subject: NASA Propulsion Awards


From:

http://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/PAO/pressrel/99_66.htm

(Sorry, no pelican power propulsion.)

        <><><><><><><><><><>

NASA Glenn Announces Breakthrough Propulsion Physics Selections

NASA Glenn Research Center announces the selection of six
proposals for experiments and theoretical work in Breakthrough
Propulsion Physics -- research that may ultimately lead to
methods of practical interstellar travel.

The distances between stars is so great that with existing
propulsion technology a probe would travel tens of thousands of
years before reaching our nearest neighboring star. Even with
the most ambitious new propulsion technology based on known
physics, it would still be extremely difficult for a probe to
reach that far within 50 years. To overcome these limitations to
practical interstellar space travel, new propulsion physics is
being sought by the Breakthrough Propulsion Physics program.
These six research selections are an early step in this process.

"Intriguing developments have appeared in recent scientific
literature that can serve as starting points for this kind of
research," said Marc Millis, the project manager for the program
at Glenn. The Breakthrough Propulsion Physics program is the
beginning of NASA's effort to systematically assess these
findings and theories. "At this stage of research, success is
defined as learning more about these developments rather than
achieving breakthroughs," Millis added.

The proposals were selected after a two-stage peer review
process. In the first stage, 50 specialists from academia,
government and industry scored the 60 proposals received. In the
second stage, government reviewers selected a variety of
approaches from the top ranking proposals.

The proposers will negotiate for grants, contracts or
cooperative agreements worth a total program value of $430,000.
The principal investigators and a brief description of the work
they proposed follow:

(1) John Cramer (University of Washington, Seattle, WA) proposed
a test to see if rapidly changing electric fields can affect
inertia as suggested in 1991 by James Woodward, in the journal
Foundations of Physics Letters. If there is such an effect, it
may be exploited to develop a new method of space propulsion. In
any case, the research will add to the understanding of how
inertia is tied to the surrounding matter of the universe.

(2) Jordan Maclay (Quantum Fields LLC, Richland Center, WI) and
MEMS Optical Inc. (Huntsville, AL) proposed an experimental and
theoretical study of quantum vacuum energy. The experiments will
use micro-electromechanical devices to test force and energy
effects predicted by quantum electrodynamics.

(3) Harry Ringermacher (General Electric Corporate Research and
Development, Schenectady, NY) with the collaboration of
researchers from Washington University, St. Louis, MO, and
United Technologies Research Center, East Hartford, CT, proposed
a magnetic resonance experiment to test a theory linking
electromagnetism, mass, and time. Ringermacher originally
published the theory in 1994, in the journal Classical and
Quantum Gravity.

(4) Glen Robertson and Ron Litchford (NASA Marshall Space Flight
Center, Huntsville, AL) proposed an experimental study of
possible links between superconductors and gravity as recently
discussed in several scientific journals. They plan to use a
torsion balance, similar to those used to search for
material-dependant gravitational effects, to search for
superconductor-gravity effects.

(5) Kevin Malloy (University of New Mexico, Albuquerque, NM) and
Raymond Chiao (University of California at Berkeley, Berkeley,
CA) proposed experiments and theoretical work on "superluminal
quantum tunneling," an effect where light appears to pass
through barriers faster than it travels through normal space.
The proposed research will critically examine some of the
faster-than-light hypotheses associated with this effect.

(6) Serguei Krasnikov (Altamonte Springs, FL) proposed to
theoretically assess the necessity of "negative energy"
suggested in recent scientific literature on hyperfast travel.
The possibilities for enabling hyperfast travel is more feasible
if negative energy is not required.

The Glenn Breakthrough Propulsion Physics program is part of a
continuing effort to provide the scientific advancements
necessary for future propulsion technology. It is funded by the
Advanced Space Transportation Program, managed by NASA Marshall
Space Flight Center, Huntsville, AL, and the Advanced Concepts
Program of the NASA Office of Space Science, Washington, DC.

Summaries of the proposals are available at:

http://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/PAO/pressrel/99_66addm.htm







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   Aug > Aug 24

                            Re: High Flying Sagan

From: Brian Straight <brians@mdbs.com>
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 12:59:35 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 16:37:52 -0400
Subject: Re: High Flying Sagan


 >Source: SIGHTINGS

 >http://www.sightings.com/politics4/fly.htm

 >Carl Sagan Flew Higher Than Scientific Imagination Alone

 >By Keay Davidson


 >"I find that most of the insights I achieve when high are into
 >social issues," he added. "I can remember one occasion, taking a
 >shower with my wife while high, in which I had an idea on the
 >origins and invalidities of racism in terms of gaussian
 >distribution curves. It was a point obvious in a way, but rarely
 >talked about. I drew the curves in soap on the shower wall, and
 >went to write the idea down. One idea led to another, and at the
 >end of about an hour of extremely hard work I found I had
 >written 11 short essays on a wide range of social, political,
 >philosophical, and human biological topics...I have used them in
 >university commencement addresses, public lectures, and in my
 >books....


So that explains it.  There are few writers on social and
political issues who can approach Sagan in the sheer drivel of
his output in this and other areas where his expertise does not
extend, but where, nevertheless, he feels compelled to offer his
opinions.

Brian






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   Aug > Aug 24

                     Re: Socorro: The Zamora 'Insignia'

From: Joel Henry <jhenry@visi.com>
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 15:01:35 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 16:57:16 -0400
Subject: Re: Socorro: The Zamora 'Insignia'


 >Date: Sun, 22 Aug 1999 23:49:51 -0400
 >From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >Subject: Re: Socorro: The Zamora 'Insignia'
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>

 >I thank Dave Rudiak for providing a quantitative analysis of the
 >balloon "problem."   It is a further illustration of th fact
 >that a phenomenon which forms the core idea of a "prosaic
 >explanation" must be a known physical phenomenon and must
 >therefor obey known physical laws.

 >>>>From the fundamental gas law

 >>PV = nRT,

 >P = DRT would have been an easier starting point, where D
 >is the Density.

 >As Dave pointed out, pressure equilibrium at the opening of the
 >balloon (when the hot air is no being injected) means that P
 >inside = DiRTi = P ountside = DoRTo. If the inside temperature
 >is 20% higher than the outside, then Ti = 1.2 To and Di =
 >(1/1.2)Do. (These are nominal numbers, of course.)  The buoyancy
 >force is proportional to the difference in mass which is the
 >difference in the product DV: m supported by buoyancy = V(Do -
 >Di) = V(Do - 0.8Do) = VDo(.2), For a 500 m^3 volume and air
 >density as 1.3 Kg/m^3 the mass supported is 500x1.3x0.2 = 130
 >kg. Multiply by 2.2 to get "pounds of mass " :  286 lbs.

 >As Dave pointed out, even with lightweight balloonists, like 100
 >lbs each, there is not enough supported weight left to allow for
 >the weight of the balloon and the weight of the the gondola
 >,fuel, fuel burner (to heat the air) etc. Moreover, to get this
 >130 Kg difference required V = 500m^3 and that crorresponds to
 >about 5 m in radius or 10 m in diameter.... abou 30 feet.  At a
 >distance of 50 feet the angle subtanded at the eyes of Zamorra
 >by the balloon this big would be about 30 degrees.   This is
 >HUGE...... By way of comparison, an 8 ft car at 50 ft subtends
 >an angle of only about 9 degrees. One may well expect that
 >Zamorra, being a policeman, was well familiar with the
 >appearance and angular size of a car at 50 ft. Hence if he
 >compared it to a car in size we might conclude that the angular
 >size was much closer to 10 degrees than to 30 degrees.

 >Yes, he compared it to a balloon. Probably because of shape and
 >being in the air. A child's balloon? Or perhaps he was thinking
 >of a weather balloon (ca 6 ft in diameter). I'm sure he wasn't
 >thinking of a 30 (or more) diameter of a hot air balloon with
 >basket/gondola, etc.

Dr. Maccabee and the rest,

You have totally missed the most important fact that makes this
whole math issue a moot one. The tripod landing holes were made
by an object weighing TONS, compressing and compacting the sand
and earth below it. It would take a balloon the size of the
freaking Hindenburg to get that much weight into the sky!! I
don't even need to do the math to figure that one out! BEFORE
you start belching pointless theories, please go over ALL the
facts, then you won't be wasting our time or yours. More square
pegs pounded into round holes..... :(

Joel Henry Minnesota MUFON

-------------------------------------------------------------------
Minnesota MUFON Field Investigator, Minnesota MUFON Journal Editor,
Minnesota MUFON Webmaster
Minnesota MUFON Web Page: http://www.visi.com/~jhenry/index.html







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   Aug > Aug 24

                     Re: Socorro: The Zamora 'Insignia'

From: Joel Henry <jhenry@visi.com>
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 14:34:00 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 16:54:59 -0400
Subject: Re: Socorro: The Zamora 'Insignia'


 >Date: Sun, 22 Aug 1999 23:49:36 -0400
 >From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >Subject: Re: Socorro: The Zamora 'Insignia'
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>

 >>Going purely from messages on this list, and re-reading some
 >>books which mention Socorro, balloons might explain some things.
 >>But they don't explain everything, so a balloon isn't the
 >>answer.

 >>I'd say 'nice try, but needs more work to be convincing'

 >Dear Martin,

 >You have hit the nail on the head. The Failure of UFO Skepticism
 >is to provide Prosaic Explanations which may fit some facts of
 >th observation but overall or wrong or just _unconvincing_.

 >However, the Maccabee's First Rule of Debunking is:  any
 >explanation is better than none. The second rule is :  if the
 >first explanation seems unconvincing or is proven wrong, try
 >another. The corolloary is: keep trying until one sticks.


Thank you!

I've been trying to pound this point home for years now.
Skeptics and debunkers seem to think that it's ok for THEM to
hammer square peg solutions into round hole problems but anyone
who would dare to do that in favor of the ET hypothesis would be
burnt at the stake. Typical scientific hypocrisy. Sometimes the
ET explanation IS THE BEST and most accurate explanation but has
already been rejected out of hand by those whose patheticly
narrow belief systems simply cannot tolerate the idea of ET
visitation. Chaps my @ss!!!!!

Joel Henry
Minnesota MUFON

-------------------------------------------------------------------
Minnesota MUFON Field Investigator, Minnesota MUFON Journal Editor,
Minnesota MUFON Webmaster
Minnesota MUFON Web Page: http://www.visi.com/~jhenry/index.html






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   Aug > Aug 24

                            Re: High Flying Sagan

From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 16:30:48 EDT
Fwd Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 17:00:41 -0400
Subject: Re: High Flying Sagan


 >From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
 >Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 11:08:06 -0400
 >Fwd Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 11:08:06 -0400
 >Subject: High Flying Sagan

 >http://www.sightings.com/politics4/fly.htm

 >Carl Sagan Flew Higher Than Scientific Imagination Alone

 >By Keay Davidson

 >Examiner Science Writer

 >http://www.examiner.com/990822/0822skyhigh.html
 >8-23-99

 >California Cosmology: Carl Sagan's Berkeley years.

In addition to the part of Sagan being a pothead, the Examiner
published a larger excerpt of Keay Davidson's new book on Sagan
in their Sunday magazine, Aug. 22.

See http://www.examiner.com/990822/0822sagan.html

In brief, it portrays Sagan as a very arrogant, self-centered,
confident, brilliant, and ambitious guy who wanted to be very
famous.

Davidson does a good job of profiling Sagan's history. But this
is also the same Keay Davidson, a hard-core debunker, who two
years ago pushed a preposterous meteor "explanation" for the
Kenneth Arnold sighting. Yes, Davidson is a "science writer,"
but he is also a pelicanist. Therein lies the rub.

You see, Davidson couldn't resist taking an extremely nasty
swipe at J. Allen Hynek, former astronaut Brian O'Leary, and
James McDonald, labeling them pseudoscientists. Why were they
pseudoscientists? Davidson doesn't explain. He simply lumps them
in with John Lilly and Timothy Leary who became heavily involved
with drugs later in life. It's painting everybody with the same
brush, a Klassic debunking tactic. What Davidson doesn't tell
the reader is that his contempt for Hynek, O'Leary, and McDonald
had to do with their audacity in stating that UFOs were real.
That, in Davidson's book, makes them guilty of "pseudoscience"
and "mysticism."

Davidson first discusses Sagan's relationship with Lilly, most
famous for his experiments with dolphin intelligence.

"Lilly's admirers were less charmed by his subsequent career. He
began taking mind-altering drugs and wrote strange, sometimes
incomprehensible books about his experiences. His dolphin
research, once so acclaimed, fell into disfavor and is now
largely ignored. 'We've come to realize [dolphins' are not
intelligent,' [Frank] Drake now says.

"Now in his mid-'80s and living in Hawaii, Lilly claims he has
psychically communicated with extraterrestrials via drugs. The
extraterrestrials -- 'transcendent beyond-humans,' he calls them
-- inhabit 'other dimensions.' ...

"He recalled that when Sagan visited the Caribbean laboratory,he
declined to take drugs. 'I was into LSD at the time and he
didn't want to take that..." Nor would Sagan try ketamine, an
anesthetic that is Lilly's drug of choice for his flotation-tank
'experiments.' Lilly attributes Sagan's refusal to take drugs to
his careerist personality: he was one of those people who is
'still on the excecutive ladder, trying to climb it. And they
don't want to get off the ladder!' As we shall see, Sagan was
less straitlaced than Lilly thought."

Now comes the swipe at Hynek, McDonald, and O'Leary:

"Lilly's strange decline epitomized that of a not terribly
uncommon personality type of the late 20th century, the
once-capable scientist who, tired of the rigors of cold, hard
reason, begins to dip into pseudoscience and mysticism. Some,
like J. Allen Hynek, apparently enjoyed their late-life ventures
into the irrational and were little the worse for it. Others
ended up going off the deep end, philosophically speaking --
Lilly, Timothy Leary, Brian O'Leary, James McDonald. Sagan knew
this last set of people -- fairly well, in the cases of Lilly
and O'Leary. Their disappearance into uncharted waters may have
reinforced Sagan's anxiety that he expressed in one of his last
books, "The Demon-Haunted World." He might have wondered: If
capable scientists could drift so far from common sense, what
hope was there for civilization?"

That's Davidson laying it on pretty thick. He's smug, unfair,
nasty, and condescending -- just like a typical debunker. But
it's also a case of the pot calling the kettle black since his
meteor explanation for the Arnold sighting is pseudoscience in
the truist sense, right up there in it's stupidity with pelicans
and hot-air balloons (which have gotten a lot of play here
recently). Davidson, a newspaper science writer, can't hold a
candle to a truly brilliant, world-class scientist like Dr.
James McDonald, whom Davidson so cruelly malligns. McDonald's
sin of "pseudoscience" was apparently nothing more than strongly
advocating a position, based on a _lot_ of hard research, that
Davidson doesn't like.

What about Sagan's views on interstellar travel? Well it seems,
if you read between the lines, that it's not pseudoscience to
suggest that humans might conceivably do it, only pseudoscience
to suggest that aliens might do it. More irony here, since to
hold such a logically contradictory point of view is again
pseudoscientific.

"Around 1960, almost all scientists regarded flight to the stars
as effectively impossible, period. The stars were simply too far
away to be reached in tolerable periods of time....

"Sagan was the first distinguished American scientist to defend
publicly, and in detail, the possibility of interstellar travel.
In an article, "Direct Contact among Galactic Civilizations by
Relativistic Spaceflight," in 1963, he wrote that radio
communication was far inferior to the goal of interstellar
travel, because only with the latter would we be able to
communicate with any technically unsophisticated cultures or be
able to gather biological specimens. In other writings, he
discussed possible types of starships -- among others, Robert W.
Bussard's interstellar 'ramjet,' which would fuel its
thermonuclear engines by sucking in hydrogen gas from space.
Starships traveling close to the pseed of light would benefit
from Einstein's principle of time dilation: onboard time would
slow down. ... Sagan speculated that galactic aliens visited
Earth in the distant past."

So Sagan was OK as long as he talked of us possibly going there,
but according to Davidson, it isn't OK to speculate about them
coming here:

"Such speculation 'appalled' Sagan's friend and colleague
Stanley Miller. 'It raises the question of whether he is a
serious guy,' he said decades later. Even the gentle Frank Drake
looks back on Sagan's speculation about ancient astronauts and
acknowledges that it 'was not good science.' A few
Sagan-watchers apparently wondered if he had truly abandoned his
youthful fascination with UFOs. Did he still harbor secret hopes
that the aliens are overhead in their silver ships awaiting an
opportune time to land?"

I think these excerpts summarize the narrow-minded,
pseudoscientific mind-set of the scientist debunkers pretty
well. No scientist should dare even suggest that we have been or
are being visited, not if they don't want to be turned into
outcasts in the mainstream scientific community. Even Sagan felt
the heat, which may very well explain why a careerist like Sagan
considerably toned down his earlier arguments favoring ET
visitation and turned to debunking instead.

Overall, as long as Davidson sticks to the facts and doesn't
start ranting, his article is well-written, interesting, and a
fun read. Among other things, he discusses the beginnings of
SETI and Frank Drake's involvement. Drake, along with Lloyd
Berkner (of MJ-12 and Robertson Panel infamy) were the ones to
start Project Ozma in the late 1950's while Berkner was was
director of the National Radio Astronomy Observatory
radiotelescope at Green Bank, West Virginia. So was this just
normal scientific curiousity by somebody like Berkner, or was
Berkner more interested not in the question if somebody else was
out there, but where were they coming from?

David Rudiak









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   Aug > Aug 24

                              Re: UFO Ridicule

From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 22:05:35 +0100
Fwd Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 17:47:45 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO Ridicule


 >Date: Sun, 22 Aug 1999 23:50:35 -0400
 >From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >Subject: Re: UFO Ridicule
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>

 >>Date: Sat, 21 Aug 1999 20:37:33 +0100
 >>To: updates@globalserve.net
 >>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
 >>Subject: UFO Ridicule

 >>The other possibility, of course, is that there is no such fear
 >>of ridicule amongst ufologists generally, apart from in the
 >>specific circumstance I mention above, that sceptical ufologists
 >>have arrived at their sceptical positions through a study of the
 >>evidence they have come across, and that Jerome Clark is talking
 >>through his hat.

 >>Just a thought.

 >Just a thought:

 >Mr. Rimmer's "other possibilty" is the likely choice. It seems
 >to me that "pelicanists" are part of the "Failure of UFO
 >Skepticism" which is to advance "prosaic explanations" which
 >cannot withstand extensive analysis.   The discussions which
 >ensue absorb a huge amount of "bandwidth."

This is rather getting away from the idea of sceptical
ufologists adopting their positions because of the fear of
ridicule (a theory as unconvincing as any pelicans), but is does
give me the opportunity to comment that not all pelicanists are
convinced by the pelican arguments for Arnold, or the hot air
ballon arguments for Socorro.

However this does not mean that we adopt the "absence of
evidence means evidence for the ETH" option.

-- John Rimmer
Magonia Magazine www.magonia.demon.co.uk







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                              Re: UFO Ridicule

From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 21:57:08 +0100
Fwd Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 17:50:51 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO Ridicule


 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
 >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >Subject: Re: UFO Ridicule
 >Date: Mon, 23 Aug 99 09:36:36 PDT

 >>Date: Sat, 21 Aug 1999 20:37:33 +0100
 >>To: updates@globalserve.net
 >>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
 >>Subject: UFO Ridicule

 >Hi, John,

 >>Jerome Clark was insistent that psycho-socially oriented
 >>ufologists and "pelicanists" (delightful phrase which we must
 >>all use as much as possible) were inclined to adopt sceptical
 >>positions because they feared ridicule from some ill-defined
 >>establishment if people started to think that they might believe
 >>in the objective existence of a hitherto unknown physical
 >>phenomenon - possibly extraterrestrial - as a source of UFO
 >>reports.

 >What is your obsession with the notion of an "establishment"?
 >It's a word I have not used but (if memory serves) you have
 >now employed more than once in this discussion.  The only
 >failure to define here is yours.  Exactly what "establishment"
 >are you talking about?  I don't think I've heard this word this
 >often since the 1960s.

By "The Establishment" I simply mean any influential group of
people, not necessarily formally connected with each other but
sharing conservative views, who are, according to Jerry,
subjecting UFO researchers to ridicule. I don't know who these
people are, but as Jerry insists that there are people who
ridicule ETH and "Ojective Physical Phenomenon" slants on the
UFO subject, so surely it's up to Jerry to define who these
people are.

 >>Now I can understand that some people, largely tenured
 >>academicians, could feel that their UFO research might be seen,
 >>by some people in authority over them, to reflect badly on their
 >>academic position. Whatever the rights and wrongs of the case,
 >>John Mack is an obvious example here.

 >>I can also see that some UFO witnesses, with no other links into
 >>the field, might be concerned what neighbours and employers
 >>might think if their experiences became subject to general
 >>gossip and sensational reporting.

 >Again, you are addressing a subject I didn't raise. I was
 >discussing ridicule, not "gossip and sensational reporting."
 >Not at all the same thing.

If unwary UFO percipients report their experiences in good faith, and
find themselves subjected to gossip and sensational reporting, it is
understandable that they would feel they are being ridiculed when this
happens. If they then choose to stay schtum and not talk about their
experience anymore, I see this as a perfectly justified form of
"ridicule avoidance". I just do not see what your point is here.
 >
 >>What I cannot see is why experienced, long-time ufologists,
 >>whose employment has no possible connection to ufology (to pick
 >>an example at random, librarians employed by a local council),
 >>who have no particular connection to the academic world, and who
 >>couldn't give a bugger what their casual aquaintances might
 >>think of their interest in UFOs (or indeed, whose casual
 >>aquaintances are equally unlikely to be concerned) should be so
 >>overcome by the fear of ridicule.
 >
 >For a simple reason, John: most human beings -- even most
 >librarians --don't like to be made fun of.  You seem, absurdly,
 >to have reduced all of us to the sum of our financial interests.
 >By adopting what you yourself concede to be a pelicanist
 >position, you have effectively ensured that you are not one of
 >those iconoclastic ufologists who question the conventional
 >wisdom on the matter, and thereby you have immunized yourself
 >from ridicule.

Most of the time I don't particularly mind being made fun of,
it's something we all have to put up with as part of the human
condition. I do object to being made fun of because of something
I have no control over, such a race, colour of skin or height.

I just want to know _who_ are the people ridiculing ufologists,
who are the _really_ iconoclastic ufologists, and just what *is*
the conventional wisdom on this subject. I have had a number of
off-list replies on this question, from people who have
suggested, from their own experience, that ETH-oriented
ufolgists seem to be the most prone to subject others to
ridicule - I see plently of that on this list. I quote from one
correspondent (he has not particularly asked me to preserve his
anonymity, but as I have not asked otherwise, I shall do so):

"I would also add that the argument could also be made that
someone who suggests a relation between incubi/succubi attacks
and alien abductions, or sleep paralysis and alien abductions,
or other dimensional visitations vs hardware in the skys, or
spiritual/demonic phenomena, or for that matter, attempts to
relate the ufo phenomena to the paradigm emerging from quantum
physics, is just as likely, if not MORE likely, to experience
raised eyebrows or hostility, as someone suggesting visitors
from Alpha Centuri to a population that believes in UFOs"

 >>I would be interested to hear from any ufologists who *have*
 >>been so overcome by the chill winds of ridicule that they have
 >>moved to a public position of "ridicule avoidance" as described
 >>by Jerome Clark. I fully understand that they might not wish to
 >>discuss this on the List, but if they were to reply privately to
 >>my e-mail address I will naturally keep their names
 >>confidential.

 >Look to your soul, my friend.  Magonia and the larger PSH crowd
 >of which it is a part are always going on and on about
 >unconscious motivations of which witnesses and non-PSH theorists
 >are unaware but which nonetheless, according to you guys, drive
 >them to certain experiences, actions, and behaviors.

 >At the same time PSH types and pelicanists --if there is a
 >difference any longer between them, and your remarks above
 >(happily from my point of view) acknowledge the obvious: there
 >aren't -- go bonkers if you suggest that they may have their own
 >unconscious motivations. I am suggesting one likely explanation
 >for the PSHers' curious desire to domestic

[sic?]

 >the UFO phenomenon.

Jerry, I'm open to all sorts of suggestions about my unconscious
motivations for the opinions I have adopted - ufological,
political, cultural, whatever. I just don't see how ridicule has
affected my views on UFOs, or the views of other sceptical
ufologists I know. If we were so scared of ridicule I'd hardly
be spending good drinking time attempting to reply to the
baffling arguments you present on this list. But if you have any
other ideas on my motivations, I'd be interested to read them.

 >Besides assuring their own intellectual and cultural
 >respectability, the effort turns the UFO phenomenon into
 >something sufficiently trivial that it can be managed by a small
 >journal published out of the curiously named John Dee Cottage in
 >London.

As opposed, presumably, to a massive circulation international media
empire operating out of the boringly-named prairie-hick-town Canby,
Minnesota. What has my address got to do with anything? Surely it isn't
- gosh, gulp - *ridicule* is it?

 >If you are to believe Magonia, the UFO phenomenon need
 >not threaten a single orthodox belief or bourgeois sensibility.
 >I'm sure all of this makes you feel good, even if its
 >contribution to ufology's most interesting -- and troubling --
 >questions ends up being negligible.

Jerry, don't you think the concept that ordinary, respectable
people - policeman, pilots, librarians, English majors, social
workers, editors - are capable of massive, radical
misinterpretations of common phenomena and experiences is
unsettling to bourgeois sensibilities? Don't you think that the
idea that psychological and sociological conditioning can render
people unable to record objectively what is happening around
them at any particular time, threatens orthodox belief? How much
more comforting it must be to believe that witnesses -
especially *reliable* witnesses and *trained* observers - are
always reporting exactly what happened, and are never to be
questioned or doubted as to the reliability of their
observations. After all, policemen always tell the truth!
Bourgeoise? Moi?

 >>The other possibility, of course, is that there is no such fear
 >>of ridicule amongst ufologists generally, apart from in the
 >>specific circumstance I mention above, that sceptical ufologists
 >>have arrived at their sceptical positions through a study of the
 >>evidence they have come across, and that Jerome Clark is talking
 >>through his hat.

 >Nah.  Another transparent PSH attempt to cast a potentially
 >troubling question into the psychic wilderness.

Jerry, if there is a question here, will you answer it? Who's
doing the ridiculing? And what evidence to you have that *any*
PSH pelicanists has adopted their position to avoid ridicule?

--
John Rimmer
Ooh, please, don't laugh at me or I'll come out in spots.
Magonia Magazine
www.magonia.demon.co.uk







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   Aug > Aug 25

                              Re: UFO Ridicule

From: Tim D. Brigham <TBrigham@ksinc.net>
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 17:19:47 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 15:01:18 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO Ridicule


 >Date: Sun, 22 Aug 1999 23:50:35 -0400
 >From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >Subject: Re: UFO Ridicule
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>

 >Mr. Rimmer's "other possibilty" is the likely choice. It seems
 >to me that "pelicanists" are part of the "Failure of UFO
 >Skepticism" which is to advance "prosaic explanations" which
 >cannot withstand extensive analysis.   The discussions which
 >ensue absorb a huge amount of "bandwidth."

The Failure of UFO Skepticism, eh? oh dear, when pressed to the
wall Dr. Mac it sounds awfully like you view this as an "us and
them" situation, with anyone who isn't "one of us" being "one of
them" (dear g-d, after all, anyone who doesn't belieeeeve must
be as nuts as they think _we_ are")! But to play along, perhaps
you can enlighten us as to "The Victory of UFO Believers" - such
as when it happened, what it accomplished, etc.

 >In each case we have an explanation which has _some_
 >similarities to the reported phenomenon is proposed as _the_
 >explanation and then the question is "why _can't_ it be..." a
 >pelican or a balloon?

Now now, I don't think They (in this case they being The Failed
Skeptics, and not The Man (TM), or The Cosmic Watergate- which
is available, by the way for 7$ from POB 10853, Gulf Breeze FL)
_ever_ suggested that this explanation was the correct one, at
least no one I saw said any such thing, rather, someone brought
up the subject and simply asked if it did/could fit.







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   Aug > Aug 25

               Re: Research Proposal - Hypnotic Suggestibility

From: Tim D. Brigham <TBrigham@ksinc.net>
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 17:48:22 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 15:05:21 -0400
Subject: Re: Research Proposal - Hypnotic Suggestibility


 >From: Jenny Randles <nufon@currantbun.com>
 >To: <updates@globalserve.net>
 >Subject: Re: Research Proposal - Hypnotic Suggestibility
 >Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 15:24:31 +0100

Hi Jenny, sorry it took so long to reply. Had days off from
school and started a new job, so was intentionally taking a
break from the topic for a bit.

<snip>

 >Hi,

 >I think you will find - as I have - that there is what we might
 >term an 'abduction prone personality' - not an FPP as such.
 >Indeed focusing too much on fanrasy proneness is going to be a
 >danger. It will alienate abductees (sorry about the pun but it
 >will!) because they will connect it with an accusation that
 >their frighteningly real experience is an imaginary one.
 >It will head in the right direction but veer off too far into
 >territory already established not to be the basis of a CE 4 case.

 >The major clues that distinguish such people in my experience
 >as abduction prone - not fantasy prone - and which statistical
 >results have borne out by studies in the US, Austria and
 >Australia to my knowledge - are as follows:

 >Sex: Higher number of females than male (about 2 to 1 in my
 >experience)

 >Age: Over three quarters of witnesses in the 21 - 30 age range.

 >Psychic track record: At least 50% report two or more other
 >psychic phenomena beyond abductions in their lives.

 >Early life recall: Many abductees spontaneously describe events
 >in their lives prior to the age of one, whereas very few non
 >abductees can do so.

 >Imaginary playmates: (As yet unquantified by me) but a recurrent
 >pattern in my cases where abductees 'played with' or
 >'communicated' with unseen presences in childhood.

 >Psychic toys: One in four abductees spontaneously describe such
 >things - balls of light seen in the bedroom between the ages
 >2 - 8 and which 'play' with them.

 >Visually creativity: One of the most marked features but harder
 >to quantify. Abductees clearly have an above average tendancy
 >towards the ability to visualise and manipulate images in a
 >creative way (sometimes expressed more obviously than others
 >via art wirk, poetry, etc)

Jenny, perhaps I am misunderstanding you, but the majority of
these traits are considered typical of the FPP. Are you saying
that while they share these traits that the APP (abduction prone
personality, for lack of a better term) is NOT the same as the
FPP, or are you saying that FPP simply may not be wholly a
measure of fantasy? If you are saying that what Fantasy
Proneness actually is, and indeed if it even exists, is still
unknown, then I agree.

As to abductees being put off by the term, very true, and I
think it is an important, and unfortunate point. However, I am
merely interested in whether or not there is a correlation
between Fantasy Proneness and abduction reports. That doesnt
mean that I buy into the explanation and description of what
Fantasy Proneness actually is (perhaps it is misnamed).  Also,
If evidence seems to indicate that suggestibility, fantasy
proneness, and paranormal reports are not correlated, then it
won't be a shot to my gut, rather, just a question answered. And
on the other hand, if they ARE correlated, I am not saying that
this will prove that one causes the other, your ideas about an
APP will still need more exploration and cannot be discounted.
However, if they have MANY traits in common, would it not be
more prosaic to speculate that the APP is merely a "sub-type" of
APP, rather than something completely different?

 >If you can determine ways to incorporate such findings into
 >your studies this will provide useful data. Together a scoring
 >system can I believe be defined as to how much of an APP (abduction
 >prone personality) someone is. This would allow us to have some
 >kind of a value judgement factor to apply to future cases as
 >well as objective means to do further research into sub sets of
 >people that are APP (who have had abductions), APP (who have as
 >yet not) and non APP. That would be a useful experiment.

Can you elaborate on what you see as some of the differences
between the FPP and the APP, as thus far I see mostly
similarities in your post.

 >Being an APP does not mean you will necessarily have an
 >abduction. I have come upon people with the pattern who seem to
 >express their abilities differently (eg by becoming a medium).
 >Nor does it presume that the abduction is an imaginary
 >phenomenon as the term FPP (Fantasy Prone Personality) obviously
 >suggests. An APP might just as easily be aware of things that
 >non APPs cannot tune into.

 >Fantasy proneness, as defined by psychology, is not the answer.
 >Some of the symptoms overlap but I think we need the concept of
 >abduction proneness to emphasise the differences otherwise
 >skeptics will continue to allege that abductees are FPP and FPP
 >are of course simply gifted at imagination - ergo abductions are
 >nothing more than imagination. That logic appears good on the
 >surface but is clearly not the case from studies of abductees on
 >the ground and so any project that heads too far in such a
 >direction would be counter-productive, not to mention a backward
 >step as previous FPP studies have already shown it not to be the
 >answer.

The results of research I have been able to get my hands on have
been mixed. I have not seen a general consensus regarding a
correlation (or lack of), or any conclusive evidence either way.
Perhaps you can point me to some researcher which strongly
indicates that there is no relation, or at least no causal
relation?

Best,
Tim


)+(
TBrigham@ksinc.net
http://zap.to/DevilsAdvocate  The Devil's Advocate
http://zap.to/MindPhuck  Operation MindPhuck
"Better to go hungry than to feast on lies."
)+(






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   Aug > Aug 25

               Re: Research Proposal - Hypnotic Suggestibility

From: Tim D. Brigham <TBrigham@ksinc.net>
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 17:55:13 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 15:08:00 -0400
Subject: Re: Research Proposal - Hypnotic Suggestibility


 >Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 10:11:38 -0400
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
 >From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
 >Subject: Re: Research Proposal - Hypnotic Suggestibility

 >>Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 09:14:34 -0500
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
 >>From: joel henry <jhenry@visi.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Research Proposal - Hypnotic Suggestibility

 >>>From: Tim D. Brigham <TBrigham@ksinc.net>
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
 >>>Subject: Re: Research Proposal - Hypnotic Suggestibility
 >>>Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 13:03:21 -0500

 ><snip>

 >>>Speaking of facts, weren't you all the ones who, a couple of
 >>>years ago, had decided to perform some sort of massive project
 >>>to get "independent verification" of UFO abductions? That one
 >>>oddly died out, to my knowledge....

 >>No it hasn't. We have everything ready and when the right
 >>abductee (current occurances) comes along we will monitor. It's
 >>very hard to predict when someone will get abducted.

 >>Joel Henry
 >>Minnesota MUFON

 >I would also point out that there is a project that has been
 >underway for the past several years known as the "Abduction
 >Monitorring Project", which is being coordinated by the UFO
 >Coalition.  This is not a "sleep monitorring" effort, per se,
 >but is attempting to monitor the area surrounding the "abductee"
 >for changes.  Details are being kept under wraps to keep this
 >research from becoming tainted, and will involve test subjects
 >in several locations around the U.S.

I agree that additional study of this area is needed, but the
cynic that is me requires me to add that I hope that if _no
evidence or support_ for the physical abduction hypothesis is
found (which I suspect, for various reasons, will be the case),
that those involved will be as quick to make those findings
public as they would if they caught an alien on videotape,
documented environmental changes, or some such. I merely wonder
"can someone not have already done this? and if so, why haven't
we heard about it?" Not finding what you want or expect to find
should be made public as well, as I think most will agree.

Best, Tim

)+(
TBrigham@ksinc.net
http://zap.to/DevilsAdvocate  The Devil's Advocate
http://zap.to/MindPhuck  Operation MindPhuck
"Better to go hungry than to feast on lies."
)+(





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   Aug > Aug 25

                            Re: High Flying Sagan

From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 19:24:36 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 15:09:24 -0400
Subject: Re: High Flying Sagan


 >From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@aol.com>
 >Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 16:30:48 EDT
 >Subject: Re: High Flying Sagan
 >To: updates@globalserve.net

<snip>

 >Overall, as long as Davidson sticks to the facts and doesn't
 >start ranting, his article is well-written, interesting, and a
 >fun read. Among other things, he discusses the beginnings of
 >SETI and Frank Drake's involvement. Drake, along with Lloyd
 >Berkner (of MJ-12 and Robertson Panel infamy) were the ones to
 >start Project Ozma in the late 1950's while Berkner was was
 >director of the National Radio Astronomy Observatory
 >radiotelescope at Green Bank, West Virginia. So was this just
 >normal scientific curiousity by somebody like Berkner, or was
 >Berkner more interested not in the question if somebody else was
 >out there, but where were they coming from?

David Rudiak
 >

Hell, you know everything.

Why don't you tell us?

Especially that part about MJ-12.

Dennis





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   Aug > Aug 25

                   Re: Re: Socorro: The Zamora 'Insignia'

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 00:20:30 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 17:14:28 -0400
Subject: Re: Re: Socorro: The Zamora 'Insignia'


 >Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 15:01:35 -0500
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
 >From: Joel Henry <jhenry@visi.com>
 >Subject: Re: Socorro: The Zamora 'Insignia'

<snip>

 >>Yes, he compared it to a balloon. Probably because of shape and
 >>being in the air. A child's balloon? Or perhaps he was thinking
 >>of a weather balloon (ca 6 ft in diameter). I'm sure he wasn't
 >>thinking of a 30 (or more) diameter of a hot air balloon with
 >>basket/gondola, etc.

 >Dr. Maccabee and the rest,

 >You have totally missed the most important fact that makes this
 >whole math issue a moot one. The tripod landing holes were made
 >by an object weighing TONS, compressing and compacting the sand
 >and earth below it. It would take a balloon the size of the
 >freaking Hindenburg to get that much weight into the sky!! I
 >don't even need to do the math to figure that one out! BEFORE
 >you start belching pointless theories, please go over ALL the
 >facts, then you won't be wasting our time or yours. More square
 >pegs pounded into round holes..... :( >

 >Joel Henry Minnesota MUFON


Ah, yes, another sticky wicket for the balloonists. Well,
perhaps they dug the landing gear into th ground to leave
depressions... or maybe they conveniently landed in depressions
that were already there... or maybe the depressions had nothing
to do with the "balloon" landing... I'm sure there is a way out
of this dilemma...

Larry Robinson suggests that the roof of Zamorra's car blocked
his view of the balloon above the basket/ gondola, as Zamorra
drove toward the "balloon"... if I understand correctly.

I think we should decide whether the balloon really was lying
on its side as Zamorra approached, or if it was really
completely inflated and above the basket.








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   Aug > Aug 25

                     Re: Kenneth Arnold's 'Flying Discs'

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 00:20:25 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 17:19:20 -0400
Subject: Re: Kenneth Arnold's 'Flying Discs'


 >From: Asgeir W. Skavhaug <asge-s@online.no>
 >To: <updates@globalserve.net>
 >Subject: Re: Kenneth Arnold's 'Flying Discs'

 >(Warning! This mail contains some pelican info, and is primarily
 >intended for birders/"pelicanists".)
 >Here are a couple of URLs regarding in flight photos of the AW
 >pelicans:

Thanks for finding these sites.

A:

 >http://www.mbr-pwrc.usgs.gov/id/framlst/i1250id.html

 > (This URL also includes a summer map. This map are based on
 >Breeding Bird Survey, BBS, data. The index to abundance is the
 >count on survey routes, sum of 50, 3-min point counts. This
 >index is about what you would expect to see in 2.5 hours of
 >roadside birding, if you are a very good birder. Remember, the
 >BBS is conducted in June.)

Yesm and if I read the map correctly, not one was counted near
Mt. Rainier.

 >Notice that specifically _one_ of the birds in the in-flight
 >photo (click on the photo to enlarge) closely resembles a disc
 >(!!) (or disk), when watched at the bird's in-flight level.

Yes, indeed. Ignore the beak/bill, which appears to be about 1/3
the length and maybe 1/4 or 1/5 the height.

Seen almost "perfectly" edge on at a moment when the wings are
at the same altitude as the body. The lower half (belly) is
shaded by the wings. Of course, if this were to tilt enough to
reveal its back the wings would be obvious. LENGTH: 50 inches or
4 ft. So, this is the size we should be using when it looks like
a "disc". Arnold estimated the length of the objects as
approximately equal in angular size to the spacing of engines on
a DC-4 at 15 miles. Assume he was right, with the spacing about
60 ft. Then the birds would be 4/60 x 15 = 1 mile away. (The
angular size length would be 0.00076 radians. )

Assume the birds were traveling at top speed of 50 mph =0.83
mi/min traveling heading south, while Arnold travels 100 mph =
1.88 mi/min east. Assume they were closest at 1 mile away and
directly ahead of Arnold's plane (i.e., due east, as Arnold
claimed the objects were for a short time as they flew south).
Then, 32 seconds later they have moved 0.44 miles south and
Arnold has reached their intial position (!). That is, he is now
due north and must be looking south to see their rear ends. He
is obviously flying PAST them. Moreover, he is a lot closer now
and could easily make out the wings.


Draw A Map

 >B:

 >http://mamba.bio.uci.edu/~pjbryant/biodiv/birds/pelecaniformes/070147.htm


 >Notice that "when flying, they (i.e., the AW pelicans) seem to
 >'sparkle' as the light plays off of their white and black
 >feathers.", i.e.,

Yeah, "sparkle" off white and _black_ feathers. You see the
white areas are brighter than the background blue and the
_black_ areas. I suspect if viewed at a distance these might
even appear dark against th sky, rather than bright. At any
rate, not one appears as a solar reflection in a mirror or
polished metal.

 >http://sazoo-aq.org/pelicans.htm

 >Also notice that "during the spring breeding season, both sexes
 >sprout a temporary _disk-like_ (!!) horn on the center of the
 >top of the bill. The horn drops off when incubation begins",
 >i.e.,

Amusing.

 >http://www.webh.com/grandlake/pelicans/white.htm


If there is one thing I have learned abou ufology it is that you
get to study so many seemingly non-related issues. _In_ the
McMinnville case I had to find out how "big" the sun is when
shining through thin clouds. (Bet no one ever thought of that
before... or since! I probably have the world's only data on the
angular size of the sun vs the relative transmission of clouds.)
_In_ the Zamorra case we are learning more than we ever wanted
to know about balloons, and here it is pelicans uberalles!

My only conclusion after reviewing this pelican information is
that pelicans are even less likely than before to be the
explanation.







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   Aug > Aug 25

             TMP News: Next Opportunity for Images of 'Face' on

From: Paul Anderson - TMP / CPR-Canada <psa@direct.ca>
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 23:59:29 -0800
Fwd Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 17:31:50 -0400
Subject: TMP News: Next Opportunity for Images of 'Face' on



TMP News
News and Updates from The Millennium Project

http://persweb.direct.ca/psa


Next Opportunity for MGS to Image the "Face on Mars"
on August 27


August 25, 1999

_____________________________


Editor:
Paul Anderson
Director
The Millennium Project

_____________________________


The next opportunity for the Mars Global Surveyor to take new
images of the controversial "Face on Mars" and other objects in
the Cydonia region of Mars, with unparalleled resolution, takes
place on August 27, 1999. After that, the next time is not until
November. Now is the crucial time to pressure NASA to keep to
its publicized commitment to continue to take new images until
the matter is settled (or will it ever be?). TMP considers this
to be a very important issue, which NASA has neglected for far
too long now.

Link to report on The McDaniel Newsletter web site:

http://www.mcdanielreport.com/flyby.htm

_____________________________


TMP News is the e-mail update service of The Millennium Project,
and is published periodically or as breaking news develops, with
the latest news and information and is available free by
subscription; to be added to or removed from the mailing list,
send your request, including "subscribe TMP News" or
"unsubscribe TMP News" and e-mail address to:

psa@direct.c

Subscribers to The Millennium Report, the monthly e-mail
newsletter of TMP (coming September, 1999) will also
receive TMP News

TMP welcomes your reports and submissions. Forward all
correspondence to:


THE MILLENNIUM PROJECT

Suite 202 - 2086 West 2nd Avenue
Vancouver, BC  V6J 1J4
Canada
Tel / Fax: 604.731.8522
E-Mail: psa@direct.ca
Web: http://persweb.direct.ca/psa


� The Millennium Project, 1999






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   Aug > Aug 25

               Re: Research Proposal - Hypnotic Suggestibility

From: Tim D. Brigham <TBrigham@ksinc.net>
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 19:23:28 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 17:59:13 -0400
Subject: Re: Research Proposal - Hypnotic Suggestibility


Correcting 2 of my own errors. Apologies.

 >As to abductees being put off by the term, very true, and I
 >think it is an important, and unfortunate point. However, I am
 >merely interested in whether or not there is a correlation
 >between Fantasy Proneness

Or "the set of traits which has been called 'Fantasy Proneness,"
to be more correct


 >and abduction reports. That doesnt mean that I
 >buy into the explanation and description of what Fantasy
 >Proneness actually is (perhaps it is misnamed).  Also, If
 >evidence seems to indicate that suggestibility, fantasy
 >proneness, and paranormal reports are not correlated, then it
 >won't be a shot to my gut, rather, just a question answered.
 >And on the other hand, if they ARE correlated, I am not saying that
 >this will prove that one causes the other, your ideas about an
 >APP will still need more exploration and cannot be discounted.
 >However, if they have MANY traits in common, would it not be
 >more prosaic to speculate that the APP is merely a "sub-type" of
 >APP, rather than something completely different?

That should be "sub- type of FPP."







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                     Re: Socorro: The Zamora 'Insignia'

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 99 19:55:33 PDT
Fwd Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 18:02:31 -0400
Subject: Re: Socorro: The Zamora 'Insignia'


 >Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 12:46:24 -0400
 >From: Andy Roberts <Brigantia@compuserve.com>
 >Subject: Re: Socorro: The Zamora 'Insignia'
 >To: UFO Updates <updates@globalserve.net>

 >>Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 03:45:17 -0400
 >>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Socorro: The Zamora 'Insignia'
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>


Hi, Andy,

 >Jerry Clark wrote: (and lawdy Jerry do your posts take some
 >figuring out!)

Nah, I don't think so. They're perfectly clear. Maybe you need
glasses, or new ones if you're already wearing specs. Or maybe
views different from yours are by definition incomprehensible to
you. Somehow I doubt that, though. C'mon, Andy.

 >>What are "self-opinionated people," by the way? Does this
 >>phrase have any meaning whatever? What is the opposite of a
 >>"self-opinionated person" -- somebody who lets other people
 >>dictate his opinions?

 >In this instance I take the phrase to mean people who are so
 >certain, so dead set that a prosaic explanation for Soccorro
 >cannot lie in the balloon hypothesis that their opinion are
 >driven more by their ego than a desire to examine the case.

If that's your definition, you're "self-opinionated," too -- so
determined to believe, even in the absence of persuasive
evidence, that there _has_ to be a mundane explanation for the
Socorro CE2/CE3 that you'll take _anything_, whatever its
problems, to support that belief. On the other hand, the
skeptics have cited clear and specific evidence that the hot-air
balloon is just so much hot air -- evidence you have yet to
address.

 >>To my skeptical mind, it seems that what we have here is the
 >>problem of pelicanism in a nutshell, and it astounds and worries
 >>me.

 >If I've been able to astound and worry an eminent ufologist by
 >suggesting an alternate way of looking at Socorro I apologise
 >most sincerely.

And if skeptical views of hot-air theories have astounded and
worried you, as you say they have, maybe you're educable, after
all. Astonishment and worry can serve as wake-up calls, and
maybe you've just heard one.

 >>In your response you fail even to acknowledge, much less to
 >>refute, the quite clear, specific reasons that have led critics
 >>to reject the hot-air theory about Socorro. Instead, we are
 >>treated to intimations that something must be wrong with the
 >>skeptics, something that you apparently know but the rest of us
 >>are too -- fill in the unflattering adjective -- to figure out
 >>about ourselves.

 >Because I am _stressing_ the indicators which *support* the
 >balloon hypothesis.

And not addressing, even slightly, the many, many problems
with it. Instead, we get lectures on the intellectual and
emotional failings of those who have cited those problems.

 >>And of course, in common
 >>with all pelicanist treatments of Socorro, the associated CE2
 >>cases of April 23, 24, and 25 go conveniently unmentioned.

 >Because they are irrelevant Jerry. The cases you mention don't
 >describe the same object or flight characteristitcs as that seen
 >by Zamora.

Alas, the way of the pelicanist. Each UFO case exists in a
vacuum, apart from anything else that ever took place, however
close in proximinity, however the features overlap, whatever the
interesting patterns that seem to link them. What's irrelevant,
I'm afraid, is the sort of tired argument -- more suited, say,
to the late 1940s -- that you bring to this. You're a bright
guy, Andy, and we deserve better from you.


 >>All of this comes, I gather, from your strongly held belief that
 >>since UFOs cannot exist

 >Where have I ever said, or intimated, that Jerry?

In just about every statement I've ever seen associated with
you. If I'm wrong, you can easily prove it. See below.

 >I never fail to be boggled by the inablity of some US ufologists
 >to understand the sceptical position held by many UK ufologists.

And we never fail to be depressed by the excesses of pelicanism
we see in many UK ufologists. The problem, unfortunately, is not
that we don't understand you. To the contrary, we understand
you all too well.

 >As you have said yourself, in private emails discussing how I
 >should describe my standpoint for my forthcoming IUR article,
 >the word 'sceptical', to US ufologists indicates debunking. But
 >that's certainly not my position.

So you are genuinely open-minded about the possibility that some
UFOs may represent something extraordinary, such as, say, the
operations of a nonhuman intelligence? I must say I am
surprised. If that's so, I'd be interested in knowing which
cases you think may indicate as much. I'd also like to know how
your views differ from, say, Klass's or Brookesmith's, and where
you think they're wrong.

 >UFOs obviously exist, but are all resolvable - surely you agree
 >with that? Even should one UFO be resolved as an alien craft
 >it's still a resolution, and that's what matters. So let's have
 >less of what my father would call 'silly talk' eh?

And speaking of silly talk:

UFOs, Andy, are _unidentified_ flying objects. There's no such
animal as an unidentified object that's identified. Resolving
puzzling UFO cases, as the long, sad history of pelicanism has
repeatedly demonstrated, is much, much easier said than done. As
witness recent attempts to turn Zamora's UFO into a hot-air
balloon or Arnold's UFOs into pelicans.

 >>(and those who think otherwise suffer
 >>from certain unnamed intellectual or other maladies),

 >Only those who won't even accept terrestrial explanations as a
 >possibility.

Please name some names here. Obviously, you aren't referring to
me, Mark Cashman, Bruce Maccabee, David Rudiak, or anybody else
who's taken the skeptical side in this debate. So who won't
accept "terrestrial explanations"? Of course, your self-serving
caricature of the discussion notwithstanding, the real question
at issue is whether this specific "terrestrial explanation"
works. Since it doesn't, it isn't those who won't accept that
fact who are the believers. Why is it so hard to concede the
obvious: that so far we _don't know_ what Lonnie Zamora (as well
as other witnesses both at Socorro and elsewhere) saw between
April 23 and 25, 1964?

 >>any
 >>counterexplanation -- however lousy, however undemonstrable,
 >>however at variance with what we know about a specific case --
 >>is preferable.

 >But in this case the balloon hypothesis (not an explanation) is
 >valid so your comments are merely opinion. 'Variance with what
 >we believe' is I think how your sentence should read in this
 >case.

Nah, I stick with what I said. Nobody who investigated the case
in its wake, including Blue Book UFOphobes, employed arguments
such as we've seen from you, Easton, and other pelicanists. We
do have a body of knowledge about the Socorro case, and it
didn't point even BB's Sgt. David Moody, adept at explanations
so imaginative that he ought to be a pelicanist hero, in the
direction of a hot-air balloon.


 >>Again, the pelicanist practice of reinventing a case so that it
 >>can be "explained." We are asked here to believe that Andy
 >>Roberts knows better what Zamora saw than Zamora does, even
 >>though (unlike the sightings you allude to) his sighting
 >>occurred in broad daylight and at close range -- precisely the

 >Hardly - merely stressing that witnesses are not precise and that
 >taking all a witness says literally is naive.

Just as is the complacent dismissal of inconvenient testimony,
which is what you're providing in its place. Even Blue Book
didn't disregard Zamora's testimony as you're doing, and believe
me, Blue Book was as keen for a conventional explanation as you
are.

 >And I can supply you with some top quality cases of police
 >officers (note the plural) seeing and misperceiving (and photographing)
 >natural phenomena as a UFO in broad daylight, for as
 >long as an hour.


And of course the history of UFOs is full of lousy
"conventional" explanations where pelicanists complacently
assumed that the witnesses, however qualified, didn't know what
they were talking about. That being the case, why even bother
interviewing witnesses? You can always cite an anecdote -- as
you just did -- proving whatever you need to believe.

At least Donald Menzel, who criticized James McDonald for
bothering to interview witnesses, was consistent, even if
pseudoscientific. Menzel bragged that he never had to leave the
armchair to know what witnesses had _really_ seen. You're doing
the same here with Zamora. If I have to choose between Zamora
and Roberts on the Socorro CE2/CE3, I'll take Zamora anyday. And
I'll bet any nonpelicanist would do exactly the same. All you're
telling us is that, since you can't get Zamora to tell us what
you need to hear, he must be wrong. On the other hand, I'm sure
that if Zamora had precisely described a balloon (as often
witnesses precisely describe, say, Venus -- what David Hufford
characterizes as the difference between folk experience and folk
explanation), you would have no trouble accepting his every
word. In fact, you'd cite it as powerful evidence that he _had_
seen a balloon, and you know what? I'd agree with you.

For a powerful lesson on the dangers of unsupported assumptions
about witness error, see Hufford's The Terror That Comes in the
Night: An Experience-Centered Study of Supernatural Assault
Traditions (University of Pennsylvania Press, 1982) -- a book
that, recently on this list, John Rimmer strangely suggested
_supports_ pelicanist approaches. In fact, as Hufford himself
(whom I have known for years; see his kind comments on the back
cover of The UFO Encyclopedia, 2nd Ed.) would tell you, it
raises profound doubts about their utility, not to mention their
basis in science and reason. Eyewitness testimony deserves a far
more thoughtful discussion -- on _both_ sides -- than we
typically see in ufologist/pelicanist discourse.

 >>circumstances under which testimony is most likely to be
 >>accurate.

 >See above - it ain't so Jerry.

Oh, really? 'Tis so, I fear. You have yet to demonstrate, except
by simple statement of belief, that we should disregard Zamora's
testimony when it fails to suit an interpretation of the episode
that you find congenial. Tell you what: why don't you go to
Socorro and meet Zamora (I've done that, by the way)? Don't
listen to him -- just _tell_ him what he saw. I'm sure he'll
appreciate it.


 >>(Parenthetically, it's worth noting that you accept eyewitness
 >>testimony when it suits your perceived purposes.

 >Not so. I am prepared to consider witness testimony in
 >its totality and match it against possibilities. The balloon
 >hypothesis is a possibility. Therefore.......

A more likely possibility is that Zamora's object remains
unidentified. Why is that simple notion so threatening to you?
The balloon "possibility" has taken a pretty thorough thrashing
on this list, and the only interesting question remaining is why
you just can't seem to let it go.


 >>When he
 >>realized that wasn't so, he speculated that the craft was an
 >>experimental vehicle from nearby White Sands Proving Grounds.)
 >>Interestingly, not even Blue Book, desperate as it was to
 >>"solve" the case, resorted to the hot-air theory. In his
 >>memoirs, frustrated at his inability to account for Zamora's
 >>UFO, former Blue Book head Hector Quintanilla was reduced to
 >>intimating that Zamora had hoaxed it. While there's no evidence
 >>for that theory, either, it's easier to believe in a hoax here
 >>than in a hot-air balloon -- though hot air, sans balloon, has
 >>been much in evidence on the pelicanist end of this discussion.

 >Yeah, yeah Jerry. I aren't saying it *wasn't* a hoax - and nor
 >can you disprove the hoax hypothesis Jerry.

So now it was a hoax, is that right? I believe it was Bruce
Maccabee who said that one principle of UFO-debunking is that if
one "explanation" doesn't fly, another will be rushed in to take
its place. And when that one fails ... well, there's a long list
of failed explanations for Socorro, including superplasma, hoax
by witness (Klass proposed both), hoax by pranksters, dust devil
(Menzel proposed both of these), secret military vehicle... I'm
sure there are others, just as I'm sure that once the hot-air
balloon is retired, another "explanation" will be on its way,
and once again we skeptics will be criticized for our inability
to believe -- unless, of course, this explanation, unlike the
others, actually makes sense Alas, I refuse to hold my breath in
anticipation. I'd be pleased, of course, to be wrong about this,
but my precognitive vision fails to scope out a plateful of crow
in my future. If it's there, however, all I ask is that you pass
the ketchup.

By the way, I still think your IUR article is a splendid piece
of work. A small suggestion: stick to what you know, and you'll
do fine.

Cheers,

Jerry Clark







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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Aug > Aug 25

                  Re: Abductions: A Funny Thing Happened...

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 21:53:45 EDT
Fwd Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 18:06:08 -0400
Subject: Re: Abductions: A Funny Thing Happened...


 >Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 15:18:45 -0500
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
 >From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
 >Subject: Re: Abductions: A Funny Thing Happened...

 >>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >>Date: Sun, 22 Aug 1999 00:41:09 EDT
 >>Subject: Re: Abductions: A Funny Thing Happened...
 >>To: updates@globalserve.net

 ><snip>

 >>I'll say this much. You certainly got Klass.

 >>J. Jaime Gesundt, researcher, philosopher and mean spirited when
 >>it comes to people with closed minds. Why? Because sometimes
 >>those minds are so shut tight, that there is some concern as to
 >>whether there is even one in there at all!

 >>"And what's a sweetheart like you, doin' in a dump like this?"
 >>(Dylan)


 >Quoting Dylan:

 >"When you're lost in the rain in Juarez and it's Easter time,
 >too/ And gravity fails and negativity won't pull you through"

 >What's a guy gonna do? Call people names?

 >Dennis

Maybe... however please make note of the names called...

"Menace." A sort of tongue in cheek admonition on the opinions
of the Klassic Jurassic debunking technique used in lieu of
outright ridicule but just as effective. As in Dennis the
Menace, who tore up whatever joint he was in with an abandon
bordering on the logic carried in the brain of a tornado.

Hmmm. What other names were in use in that post? None that I
can imagine. Oh, yeah, the part about what may lurk in the
hearts and/or minds of some who choose to use the technique
above described, the "Kick 'em in the ass and step on the gas!"
technique. Maybe. When I wrote:

 >> researcher, philosopher and mean spirited when
 >> it comes to people with closed minds

Nope. Doesn't float in my terlet bowl.

By the way...

Glad you guys made it through the sturm undt drang down
that-a-way. Wouldn't want youse to suffer the indignity of being
carried away by a lot of fast-blowing hot-air. Even the one from
that hurricain. No, not the one the authorities came to blame,
for sumthin' that he never done. Like John Ford, put in a prison
cell but one, time he coulda been, the champeen of the Klass..

Don't rhyme, but then I aint no Lehmburg. Even when sober.

Love,
J. Jaime Gesundt,
Debunker of Tutti Debunkers







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   Aug > Aug 25

                              Re: UFO Ridicule

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 99 20:45:44 PDT
Fwd Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 21:37:32 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO Ridicule


 >Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 21:57:08 +0100
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
 >From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
 >Subject: Re: UFO Ridicule

 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
 >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >>Subject: Re: UFO Ridicule
 >>Date: Mon, 23 Aug 99 09:36:36 PDT

 >>>Date: Sat, 21 Aug 1999 20:37:33 +0100
 >>>To: updates@globalserve.net
 >>>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
 >>>Subject: UFO Ridicule


Hi, John,

 >By "The Establishment" I simply mean any influential group of
 >people, not necessarily formally connected with each other but
 >sharing conservative views, who are, according to Jerry,
 >subjecting UFO researchers to ridicule. I don't know who these
 >people are, but as Jerry insists that there are people who
 >ridicule ETH and "Ojective Physical Phenomenon" slants on the
 >UFO subject, so surely it's up to Jerry to define who these
 >people are.

Let's see if I've got this straight. Please enlighten me: are
you telling us that ridicule is not regularly directed at
ufologists and UFO witnesses? On what, may I ask, do you base
this extraordinary claim? Maybe I missed something. I _was_ out
of town -- excuse me, my "prairie-hick town" -- over the
weekend.

 >>Again, you are addressing a subject I didn't raise. I was
 >>discussing ridicule, not "gossip and sensational reporting."
 >>Not at all the same thing.

 >If unwary UFO percipients report their experiences in good faith, and
 >find themselves subjected to gossip and sensational reporting, it is
 >understandable that they would feel they are being ridiculed when this
 >happens. If they then choose to stay schtum and not talk about their
 >experience anymore, I see this as a perfectly justified form of
 >"ridicule avoidance". I just do not see what your point is here.

Let's see now. There is no ridicule, only "gossip and
sensational reporting," and witnesses are too stupid to tell the
difference?

 >>For a simple reason, John: most human beings -- even most
 >>librarians --don't like to be made fun of. You seem, absurdly,
 >>to have reduced all of us to the sum of our financial interests.
 >>By adopting what you yourself concede to be a pelicanist
 >>position, you have effectively ensured that you are not one of
 >>those iconoclastic ufologists who question the conventional
 >>wisdom on the matter, and thereby you have immunized yourself
 >>from ridicule.

 >Most of the time I don't particularly mind being made fun of,
 >it's something we all have to put up with as part of the human
 >condition. I do object to being made fun of because of something
 >I have no control over, such a race, colour of skin or height.

I'm sure you're a particularly noble member of the human race,
John.  Still, the rest of us, who aren't quite so noble (some of
us live in "prairie-hick towns" and don't know any better),
dislike being made fun of. Lamentable, even shocking, I know,
but true.

 >I just want to know _who_ are the people ridiculing ufologists,
 >who are the _really_ iconoclastic ufologists, and just what *is*
 >the conventional wisdom on this subject. I have had a number of
 >off-list replies on this question, from people who have
 >suggested, from their own experience, that ETH-oriented
 >ufolgists seem to be the most prone to subject others to
 >ridicule - I see plently of that on this list. I quote from one
 >correspondent (he has not particularly asked me to preserve his
 >anonymity, but as I have not asked otherwise, I shall do so):

 >"I would also add that the argument could also be made that
 >someone who suggests a relation between incubi/succubi attacks
 >and alien abductions, or sleep paralysis and alien abductions,
 >or other dimensional visitations vs hardware in the skys, or
 >spiritual/demonic phenomena, or for that matter, attempts to
 >relate the ufo phenomena to the paradigm emerging from quantum
 >physics, is just as likely, if not MORE likely, to experience
 >raised eyebrows or hostility, as someone suggesting visitors
 >from Alpha Centuri to a population that believes in UFOs"

The point being, of course, that anybody who suggests that UFOs
are not conventionally explainable opens him- or herself up to
ridicule. Thanks for making my point. Apparently your anonymous
correspondent is more sensitive to the varying levels of
ridicule than most of us would be, including the ridiculers
themselves, but we agree on the essential point. We don't agree,
however, on how to spell the plural of "sky."


 >Jerry, I'm open to all sorts of suggestions about my unconscious
 >motivations for the opinions I have adopted - ufological,
 >political, cultural, whatever. I just don't see how ridicule has
 >affected my views on UFOs, or the views of other sceptical
 >ufologists I know. If we were so scared of ridicule I'd hardly
 >be spending good drinking time attempting to reply to the
 >baffling arguments you present on this list. But if you have any
 >other ideas on my motivations, I'd be interested to read them.

I'm glad my arguments "baffle" you, John. I take it that I am
forcing you to think, and that's always a good thing. Let me
explain what I'm saying as simply as possible so that even a
PSHer can understand it:

PSH approaches are often predicated on the belief that
unconscious impulses, unknown to the affected persons, lead us
to various opinions, beliefs, and even experiences. We may even
deny -- as strongly as you have above -- that particular
impulses underlie what we do, think, and perceive. It is only
when I argue that PSHers may have unconscious motivations which,
by definition, are hidden from their conscious knowledge -- and
that one such motivation may be a fear of ridicule (which you
are so keen to deny that you are reduced to claiming that
ridicule of ufologists and witnesses scarcely exists; my word,
don't you read Peter Brookesmith? a newspaper?) -- that suddenly
a favorite PSH argument becomes invalid.

 >>Besides assuring their own intellectual and cultural
 >>respectability, the effort turns the UFO phenomenon into
 >>something sufficiently trivial that it can be managed by a small
 >>journal published out of the curiously named John Dee Cottage in
 >>London.

 >As opposed, presumably, to a massive circulation international media
 >empire operating out of the boringly-named prairie-hick-town Canby,
 >Minnesota. What has my address got to do with anything? Surely it isn't
 >- gosh, gulp - *ridicule* is it?

Thank you for ridiculing my home town. (I'm sorry that the
honorable Civil War/Indian War general -- he's in the history
books, John -- after whom Canby is named had a boring last
name.) I was _joking_ about John Dee Cottage. Are pelicanists
humorless? I guess so, since I detect no humor in your boring
urban chauvinism, alas, or predictable class prejudice.

For the record, I think London is a great town. As you know,
I've actually been there. Another great town, though a very
different one, is Canby, Minnesota -- a place that, though
you'll never be here, you apparently believe you know all about.
But you wouldn't be a pelicanist if you didn't know all about
those things you're in fact ignorant of, would you? Nor would
you be one if you couldn't put down human beings of whom you
know precisely nothing. Way to go, guy. I am _really_ impressed.

 >>If you are to believe Magonia, the UFO phenomenon need
 >>not threaten a single orthodox belief or bourgeois sensibility.
 >>I'm sure all of this makes you feel good, even if its
 >>contribution to ufology's most interesting -- and troubling --
 >>questions ends up being negligible.

 >Jerry, don't you think the concept that ordinary, respectable
 >people - policeman, pilots, librarians, English majors, social
 >workers, editors - are capable of massive, radical
 >misinterpretations of common phenomena and experiences is
 >unsettling to bourgeois sensibilities? Don't you think that the
 >idea that psychological and sociological conditioning can render
 >people unable to record objectively what is happening around
 >them at any particular time, threatens orthodox belief? How much
 >more comforting it must be to believe that witnesses -
 >especially *reliable* witnesses and *trained* observers - are
 >always reporting exactly what happened, and are never to be
 >questioned or doubted as to the reliability of their
 >observations. After all, policemen always tell the truth!
 >Bourgeoise? Moi?

As to the last question: yup. Beyond that:

The usual pelicanist strawman argument, without which there
would, I fear, be no pelicanism. I have never met anybody who
thought witnesses are always right, but perhaps you can
enlighten all of us and start citing names of those who do. What
you can't stand to think about is that witnesses are not
_always_ wrong and may, in fact, just as often be right. Rather
than deal with that threatening possibility, that unwelcomely
complex consideration, you simply caricature the argument. Which
may tell us that -- even if on an unconscious level -- you know
you could be wrong.


 >Jerry, if there is a question here, will you answer it? Who's
 >doing the ridiculing? And what evidence to you have that *any*
 >PSH pelicanists has adopted their position to avoid ridicule?

Again, let's see if we've got this straight. There is no
ridicule, is that right? And everybody has unconscious impulses
except residents of John Dee Cottage and allies thereof?

A proud prairie hick,

Jerry Clark






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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Aug > Aug 25

                Re: 'Doorway Amnesia' & Modern Day Abductees?

From: Amy Hebert <yelorose@swbell.net>
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 05:45:01 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 21:43:54 -0400
Subject: Re: 'Doorway Amnesia' & Modern Day Abductees?


 >Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 03:00:12 -0400
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
 >From: John Velez<jvif@spacelab.net>
 >Subject: Re: 'Doorway Amnesia' & Modern Day Abductees?

 >I would hope that researchers who ignore testimony in favor of
 >their own beliefs/biases are in the extreme minority. The
 >"abduction researchers" (which is a misnomer, most of them are
 >investigative authors/reporters) that I have met are men who are
 >reporting on what they have been told by the experiencers.

You are certainly right about the differences between abduction
researchers and investigative authors/reporters. Those who
_research_ abductions do so to gather information to gain a
clearer perspective of the phenomenon while investigative
authors/reporters may only seek material for their next article
or book. Sometimes researchers become authors/reporters and
authors/reporters become researchers. It's gotten hard, lately,
to tell the difference.

As for researchers ignoring or altering testimony due to their
own beliefs and bias, even Budd Hopkins advised Whitley Strieber
to leave out the part about the aliens leading him around by his
penis because he thought people would not believe it (much like
the semen extraction was left out of the Hill's abduction
account). I can certainly understand why he felt the need to
withhold this information from the public but I can't help but
wonder how many other researchers and/or investigative
authors/reporters have done the same presenting a less than
accurate picture of the abduction phenomenon.

When one does research, he/she is obligated to report the facts
as they are observed not as he/she believes *should* be reported
or what's best for the public (we've been told what to believe
or not believe for too long). If abduction phenomena were
reported according to what's _really_ going on, the high
strangeness and bizarre aspects would make it seem much less
comprehensible than currently believed. But that's how it is and
truth may not always be what we want it to be.

 >What you suggest in your statement above is that researchers of
 >such low standards and ethics are 'common.' Not from what I've
 >seen Amy.

Unfortunately, John, as a counselor I have seen the down side of
the low standards and unethical practices used by many so-called
"researchers". I've seen what happens to the abductees when they
have had encounters of the worst kind - with attention greedy
investigators/authors/self-professed researchers. I don't know
if these types of "researchers" are common but I do know they
are much more prevelant than most people realize. I've known
many...some were/are my dearest friends.

Without established guidelines and formal, ethical standards of
practice, it's become a free-for-all where everyone from the
quack down the street to doctors, scientists and college
professors are sharing the same lecture podiums, the same pens
at books signings and often appear side-by-side on TV specials.

Unfortunately, from my experiences, I *have* noted bias and
self-promotion in many "researchers/investigators" rather than a
serious emphasis on research and careful investigation. There is
bias in all research. I think rather than deny the existence of
this trend, we need to bring it into clearer focus and evaluate
the symptoms, causes and solutions.

 >2. The only recollection that I have of an access door came up
 >during a hypnosis session. (Material that I do not recall
 >consciously and clearly, I have a tendency not to trust or put
 >much stock in.)

You are very wise, John. ;>

Amy
Home Page: "http://members.tripod.com/TheVanguard"






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   Aug > Aug 25

                      Re: 'New?' FBI memo about Roswell

From: Neil Morris <Neil@adm1.ph.man.ac.uk>
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 14:37:45 +0100
Fwd Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 22:40:58 -0400
Subject: Re: 'New?' FBI memo about Roswell


[Note: Images are _not_ posted to the Archive at
  Ufomind - subscription has its benefits --ebk]

 >From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
 >Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 16:11:50 EDT
 >Subject: Re: 'New?' FBI memo about Roswell
 >To: updates@globalserve.net

 >>Date: Sun, 22 Aug 1999 10:03:35 -0700
 >>To: updates@globalserve.net
 >>From: Neil Morris <neil@adm1.ph.man.ac.uk>
 >>Subject: Re: 'New?' FBI memo about Roswell

 >>FWIW as I read it, it's _not_ the cover story but a strong hint
 >>as to what _actually_ happend that evening.

 >>It does _totally_ support the "Cover Story" scenario  because
 >of >the facts given being  _totally_ out of place in the
 >timeline in >view of what was else being _fed_ to the news media
 >that night.

 >>This _URGENT_ teletype was sent out at 6.17pm FW time YET at
 >>_5.30pm_ FW time, 45mins _before_, Maj Kirton of the the
 >>Intellegence Office of the FWAAF was informing a reporter for
 >>the Dallas Morning News that the debris was that of a High
 >>Altitude Weather Balloon, nothing to make a fuss over, no need
 >>to fly it on to WF, end of story. Please also note this was 1hr
 >>_before_ Irving Newton's ID of the debris was sent out on the
 >AP >wire (6.30pm FW) AND 30 mins _before_ Newton even came ON
 >>DUTY(6.00pm FW).

 >>To cap it all Kirton was identified as the AF contact who gave
 >>the information in the teletype to the FBI Dallas office,
 >>presumably shortly before the teletype was sent, after all it
 >>was marked URGENT, and I doubt the FBI would sit on this info
 >>for very long. So, 5.30pm the debris was a mundane Weather
 >>Balloon for the press, and stopping at Fort Worth AAF yet for
 >>the FBI at aprox 6.00pm AND reported by the self same Maj
 >>Kirton "telephonic conversation" with the techie's at WF "had
 >>not borne out that belief" ie, it _wasn't_ 'mundane debris' and
 >>it _was_ being flown on to Wright Field!. Yet at 6.30pm on the
 >>AP Wire, Irving Newton says again it'a a mundane Weather
 >>Balloon. Later that evening, radio reporter Joe Wilson in
 >>Chicago stated he had spoken shortly before the broadcast with
 >>officials at Wright Field and they were _still_ _awaiting_ the
 >>debris arrival. Perhaps FWAAF hadn't told them it was just a
 >>weather balloon and wouldn't be coming?.

 >And let us not forget that Star-Telegram photographer J. Bond
 >Johnson said that General Ramey told him that it was a weather
 >balloon when Johnson arrived to take the photographs earlier in
 >the day. Johnson told me, "I took two pictures [which we now
 >know is probably six] and then they [Ramey] said... 'Oh, we've
 >found out what it is and you know, it's a weather balloon and so
 >forth.'"

 >In a second interview, Johnson said, "I posed General Ramey with
 >this debris. At that time I was briefed on the idea that it was
 >not a flying disk as first reported but, in fact, was a weather
 >balloon that had crashed."

 >So, the story of the weather balloon was in place before any
 >reporters arrived in General Ramey's office.

 >KRandle, Ph.D.


Kevin and list,

I do not intend to jump into the debate over the various "taped"
interviews and what was said and not said with JBJ over the
years, except to say that in the last few months an independant
source has confirmed the main part of JBJ's recollections as
they stand "today", and expanded intrestingly on what we now
know of the events at the Star-Telegram and FWAAF at that time.

JBJ would be the first to admit his memories of the photo
session are fragmentory and as he put's it "in soundbites", a
good description I think of old memories, unless your blessed
(or cursed) with the photographic form, try recalling your own
childhood memories and then attempt to drag out exact detail as
questioning a witness, what colour was x?, what did y
say..exactly?. I tried this little exercise on myself, it opened
my eyes a little to the hurdles faced by witnesses when asked to
recall events "in detail" from 50+ years ago, "soundbites" is a
good description indeed.

What Ramey did or did not say at the time we can NEVER be sure,
nobody taped _that_ conversation and the only surviving person
who was there will today readily admit he does not recall what
Ramey said exactly word for word, only the "impression" he gave.

What we DO have, and dismissed totally by so many people (why?)
are those photographs, of unchallenged provenance and hard
evidence of instants captured in time of part of one of the most
contentious pieces of recent US history.

To question _why_ they are seemingly so ignored, if Errol will
indulge me, (and forward the attached JPG image file <g>) I
would like to go through 5 points visible in just a small
section of one of those images JBJ took in Gen Ramey's office
that afternoon.

My remarks are made in the assumption that we start with the
explanation as given by the USAF that the debris displayed in
Gen Ramey's office is that of an ML307B radar target with
associated balloon envelope.


The section of image is taken from the Ramey/Dubose photo and is
_un-enhanced_. The section can be identified quite easily in any
resonable sized reproduction of this image and is located to the
bottom left of the photo, a part of the foil sheets nearest the
camera.

The yellow highlights indentify glyphs seen on the diagonal
"panel" tramlines, these can actually be identified in the small
reproductions of this image in Kevin's books, though the glyphs
are below the resolution of that reproduction.

Items.

#1. The Glyph Panel.

Marker number 1 indicates the two sides of this diagonal feature
seen bisecting this foil panel, from examination of other debris
this panel is formed from a thin "I" beam section attached to
the rear of the foil panel, some evidence of this can be seen as
just showing from behind damaged foil at 1a.

Neither panel or support structure are an ML307 specification.

#2. The Glyphs.

Within the panel structure and highlighted in yellow can be seen
a number of regularly formed shapes or glyphs. The glyphs are of
both a raised nature in the metalic foil and flat surface
markings.

Though the ML307 specification called for the ML307 designator
to be "painted" or "stencilled" on the reflector, the above do
not meet this specification and do not say ML307!.

#3. Marker 3 points to a metalic feature known to the RPIT as
the "lionhead" as to some it gives the appearance of a
decorative animal head holding "the glyph panel" in it's mouth.

This is not part of the ML307 specification, (3a)as this is also
at the junction of a number of "tapes", wooden supports should
be evident. They are not. (NO wooden struts are seen at all on
this section of the debris)

#4. Marker 4 points to a feature known to the RPIT as "the plug"
as this item seems to be either a plug or fastener in appearance
and is at the end of item number 5.

#5. Marker 5 points to a item resembling a flat ribbon cable,
this point is made more evident as it can be observed to be
rolled as it passes into a circular opening on "the plug".

Items 4 and 5 are not part of any ML307 specification.

There are lots more like these all over the images, including
the Newton photograph taken some time later that evening.

Edgetapes that are not edgetapes but hollow flattened tube
structures containing ridged wire formers, wirelike "cable
looms" seemingly attached to the rear of beam/foil structures,
pipelike structures and "charred" cable like debris attached to
the "balloon envelope" a balloon envelope that by the way has a
"metallic" button attached to a "fabric" like tassle.

I've not even mentioned that piece of paper Ramey's got in his
hand.

_All_ these features and others _can_ be seen in the 4 ST
images, images long since dismissed and ignored as nothing more
that Ramey's "switched debris", did anyone realy bother to have
a "good" look?. All those features _are_ there and they've been
there since 1947 when the pictures were shot, it's lucky they've
_not_ faded like so many memories have in the years between, the
Star-Telegraph darkroom must have had a good batch of Hypo in
that week.


Neil.


--
** * * * * * *
Neil Morris.   /101101101 Virtual Bumper Stickers Inc 10110101010\
Dept of Physics.   1 1
Univ of Manchester 0 0
Schuster Labs. 1  Computer Programmers DO IT with BITS of BYTES  1
Brunswick St.  0 0
Manchester.1 1
UK.\0101010110010110110010110101101011011110101011010/
G8KOQ


  E-mail: neil@adm1.ph.man.ac.uk

Roswell and Alien Autopsy Archive->http://adm2.ph.man.ac.uk/
Dave Willetts Home Page->  http://adm2.ph.man.ac.uk/dave_willetts/
Mike Sterling Home Page->  http://adm2.ph.man.ac.uk/mike-s/
Tim Morgan Home Page   ->  http://adm2.ph.man.ac.uk/tim-m/

** * * * * * *






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   Aug > Aug 25

                              Re: UFO Ridicule

From: Jenny Randles <nufon@currantbun.com>
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 12:16:19 +0100
Fwd Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 21:51:43 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO Ridicule


Hi,

I have been following this debate with interest, and I think
valid points are being made on all sides.

Firstly, I do not think most UK skeptics have adopted an
anti-ETH position because of any sinister reason. Motives
possibly at work tend to operate unconsciously and go
unrecognised by all sides here. Certainly there will be
complicating factors because we are all human beings and we will
behave in unpredictable ways not like machines.

For instance, there is bound to be some desire to gravitate
towards friends. In the UK ufology is polarised into a them and
us mentality. There are the strong ETH supporters - notably the
ones that get the most attention and make the most money (viz
Tim Good, Nick Pope, Nick Redfern). Any writer is bound to feel
a pull in that direction if they have any financial sense, that
is. So, in fact, this is a pro ETH slant in operation. I have
felt it more than once.

But without question, in my experience, many people who study
UFOs objectively here recognise, whilst not the failure of the
ETH (for some - and certainly for me - it is a perfectly valid
interpretation of some of the evidence) then at least its
shortcomings. They recognise that the evidence decrees other
possibilities in many cases and are left with a dilemma. Do I
defend an interpretation of the phenomenon that I do not accept
merely to get fame and fortune and attract star billing in the
UFO circuit? Some (and I wont name names but they know who they
are) do exactly that - a few no doubt without realising it.
Thankfully, many in ufology here have a high ethical and moral
stand and tell it like they see it (not like how many want it to
be). This is almost akin to ufological suicide, because they are
neither the anti UFO skeptics that the media love (eg Richard
Wiseman is the current darling of that clan) nor the (guaranteed
to give a good quoute) vociferous proponents (such as the
utterly sincere and eloquent ones like Tom Good and the two
Nicks cited before). As such a realistic position on UFOs taken
in the UK generally makes it very hard to get your message
across.

I recall the 90 minute live 'Strange But True?' network show we
did on UFOs on 24 June l997 (was this the worlds only live TV
spectacular from a major network - the equovalent of NBC, CBS or
ABC in the US - on our 50th anniversary?) I spent three months
planning that venture with ITV. A whole series of good ideas
)(eg to covertly stage an IFO and film the post sighting
response from all parts of society in the chosen town - or the
plan to do a nationwide survey of UFOs on the night) were all
dumped by the network despite being approved by my bosses at the
show. Why? Because the edict came from TV that the show must
present UFOs in a format that was easy for the viewers to
comprehend. That translated into them versus us. Have someone on
to say it was a spaceship (and the broader their ideas the
better - if we can get juicy quotes about cover ups,etc etc
great). Get someone on to say it was all a load of tosh and
really just a meteor. Great. Viewers can revel in the conflict.
But, I pointed out, every programme does this - why not be
different - and what about the strength of British ufology - the
idea that UFOs are real but not necessarily spacecraft and
possibly reflect some sort of new science out of which we can
develop energy resources or new propulsion systems. Oooh, no.
That will befuddle their poor little brains was pretty much the
response. Ergo the show went on and was feeble. Ego mania aside
I am pretty damned sure that my original plan (which might not
all have been workable) would have made a far more interesting
programme and been far less plodding and repetitive than what we
got. But it was too daring for ITV because it did not reinforce
this absurd stereotyping of ufology that they demand.

Strange But True? got cancelled after this live show. So maybe
there was some justice - although part of the team are involved
in a new ITV documentary on UFOs that screens this autumn. I am
not working on that because I refused to be involved (turning
down a much needed fee). I was very unhappy with the way the
concept seemed utterly disinterested in displaying credible
ufology and instead just wanted what was termed 'characters' to
represent what was also termed by the brief 'the UFO industry'.
The warning signs were obvious and other factors intruded which
caused me to want not to be involved with this show. Maybe I
misjudged. It hasnt aired yet so we shall see. But I am afraid
what I saw behind the scenes was a worrying example of how it
does not pay in any sense   at all to support any kind of middle
of the road UFO stance in the UK. Recognition fame and fortune
only follow certitude.

These issues all go contrary to what Jerry Clark suggests and
support John Rimmer. But it is not as simple as that.

In one case I worked on we garnered a whole slew of scientists
in a private get together and they all turned down the chance to
research solid UFO evidence in the privacy of their own labs.
They did this despite the total, demonstrated backing of Kodak
and guarantees of anonymity. The full story is in the book 'The
UFOs that never were' which Dave Clarke, Andy Roberts and I have
just written. The point is that it was fear of being associated,
even by their peers in private, with the image that ufology has.
There was never any chance this UFO was a spaceship. IT was
clear to UFOlogists, skeptics and scientists alike here that we
were seeking a rational answer. But fear of ridicule and loss of
future grant funding drove the top atmospheric physics labs in
the UK away from an interesting UFO case.

Nor is this unique. The Birchwood Mall video footage (taken by a
security camera) was used as a test case after the shopping
centre called me in to trouble shoot. We worked quietly with
several local scientists who are big wigs in the UK skeptics
movement to try to resolve this case. What happened? After a few
weeks we were all still mysrified despite suggestions by them,
field tests and meetings at a university. And the skeptics quit.
Not a peep about their failed efforts appeared in their
magazine, which frequently ridicules UFOs (and is supported
openly and with articles by British UFO writers like Hilary
Evans and Steuart Campbell). Some time later I appeared on a
national TV show with the science writer who edits their
magazine. I showed the footage (with the blessing of the
shopping mall) in an attempt to resolve this case by getting
viewer suggestions. The science writer demanded to know details
of this case before talking about it on air - at which point
(and to the shame of the skeptics) I noted that she really ought
to know all the details given how much effort some of her
colleagues had put in to it after we invited them to assist in
cracking the case from day one!

We solved this case eventually. It wasnt a UFO. But the point is
that the scientists have maintained a deathly silence throughout
(to this day they have said not a word and not printed letters I
have sent asking them why). I can only guess - this was
presumably because they feared that their inability to explain a
case translated into perceived support of a UFO and thus might
not go down well with colleagues, ergo they chose silence. But
it shows that both science and skepticism is effected by human
decision making and the fear of ridicule.

I could cite further examples, so this fear is a powerful force
and it works (as here) with people I consider honest and
objective - not die hard debunkers. It is reasonable to
consider, therefore, as Jerry suggests, whether it can effect
UFOlogists too. Just as much as some ETH belief is a factor of
joining the crowd, going with the flow and recognising its aid
in a successful career as a UFOlogist, so in the UK might the
reverse apply.

As just shown taking an objective stance on UFOs can be a
lonely, unrewarding thing. Nobody thanks you for it. Nobody
wants to hear what you say. You get treated as just another one
of those nutters by the media all the time who either are not
erudite enough or do not want to see distinctions in their
simplistic logic about this phenomenon. (Look at the coverage of
the recent Washington DC conference by highly regarded
newspapers - all skeptics versus the believers (in spaceships)
and no depth - so the millions of readers get no impression of
the broader issues thanks to lazy journalists who cannot be
bothered to find out that there are other perspectives at work)

Inevitably we cling to each other for support. Serious ufology
in the UK is a small sand castle assailed on all sides by the
winter gales and onrushing seas. As Jerry knows (my infamous
letter on a plane from Sydney to Cairns) (by all means talk of
it or quote from it Jerry as its an example of this point) at
times I suppress my suspicions about a possible alien reality
just so as not to offend or appear too strange to colleagues
with whom I want to maintain a good rapport . It is a
subconscious process but I an sure it is there and I suspect it
effects others too.

But with me  - I trust - it would never reach the point where it
prevented me from recognising or speaking up for what I honestly
regarded as the truth. I am long past caring how others see me.
My life outside of UFOs from a toddler onward (as many of you
will know) has long prepared me for that. I have had to exist in
a climate of fear and ridicule, maltreated by society, and so
any abreaction for taking UFOs seriously is as of nothing by
comparison. Equally, my views on subjects such as time anomalies
and OOBEs (based here on direct experience not observation as
with alien contact) are way out of line with most serious UK
UFOlogists and far more likely to cause me to be perceived oddly
than if I were to offer more open support for a version of the
ETH (as indeed I have often done).


My point really is that with other people less honed by a
lifetime of being regarded as an eccentric curiosity, the
pressure to conform is sure to be greater. Britain is a very
conservative society. By tradition we do not get wildly excited
and emotional all the time. Even our ETH supporters are calm,
methodical and understated.  (There are exceptions to all rules,
of course). So I am pretty sure that an undercurrent exists
whereby some degree of suppression of alien reality operates for
social reasons.

But I am equally certain that the real bottom line is the
evidence. Those of us who are not overt ETH supporters have
indeed reached that stance through the evidence and its
blatantly obvious conflicting nature. However, sometimes I see
certainty against the ETH and in favour of psycho-socialism that
I suspect may be more than just a logical judgement. For to my
mind the evidence is suggestive, but not probative, of an alien
component. It is clearly much more strongly behind things like
UAP and the psycho-social dimension to UFO reality. But I dont
see how anyone can have a surity of explanation from the data at
our disposal. For it is incomplete, contradictory and beset by
confusion not conviction of one possibility above all others.

As such, whilst my middle of the road stance and willingness to
concede a role for all these things is often perceived as
indecision and sitting on the fence I regard it as the only
sensible path to follow right now. Frankly whilst I respect
their fortitude I tend to distrust reasons for offering total
support to one UFO perspective or the other. For me the evidence
just is not that clear cut to make such a bold proposition and
it has the attendant danger of all who make up their mind.
Evidence that conflicts with that decision is likely to be given
far less credence, if taken on board at all, than evidence that
supports it.

For me, given the current state of play, thats a very good
reason to remain undecided.

Best wishes,

Jenny Randles





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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Aug > Aug 26

                      Re: 'New?' FBI memo about Roswell

From: James Bond Johnson <JBONJO@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 13:15:48 EDT
Fwd Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 07:54:26 -0400
Subject: Re: 'New?' FBI memo about Roswell


 >Subj:  UFO UpDate: Re: 'New?' FBI memo about Roswell
 >Date: 08/24/1999 1:33:32 PM Pacific Daylight Time
 >From: updates@globalserve.net (UFO UpDates - Toronto)

 >From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
 >Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 16:11:50 EDT
 >Subject: Re: 'New?' FBI memo about Roswell
 >To: updates@globalserve.net

 >>Date: Sun, 22 Aug 1999 10:03:35 -0700
 >>To: updates@globalserve.net
 >>From: Neil Morris <neil@adm1.ph.man.ac.uk>
 >>Subject: Re: 'New?' FBI memo about Roswell

 >>>From: Michel M. Deschamps <ufoman@ican.net
 >>>To: UFO UpDates >- Toronto <updates@globalserve.net
 >>>Subject: Re: 'New?' FBI memo about Roswell
 >>>Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 02:27:29 -0400

 >>>>From: Henny van der Pluijm <hvdp@worldonline.nl
 >>>>Date: >Wed, 18 Aug 1999 04:35:02 +0200 (MET DST)
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - >Toronto <update@globalserve.net
 >>>>Subject: 'New?' FBI memo about Roswell

 >>>>Found this at http://www.space.com/area51/websightings_812.html

 >>>>For old-school UFOlogists, the Paranormal News published an FBI
 >>>>memo concerning the 1947 Roswell object and 12 pages of Project

 ><snip>

 >>>>reflector, but that telephone conversation between their
 >office >>>and Wright Field had not borne out this belief."

 ><snip>

 >>FWIW as I read it, it's _not_ the cover story but a strong hint
 >>as to what _actually_ happened that evening.

 >>It does _totally_ support the "Cover Story" scenario  because
 >>of the facts given being  _totally_ out of place in the
 >>timeline in >view of what was else being _fed_ to the news media
 >>that night.

 >>This _URGENT_ teletype was sent out at 6:17 PM FW time YET at
 >>_5.30 pm_ FW time, 45 mins _before_, Maj Kirton of the the
 >>Intelligence Office of the FWAAF was informing a reporter for
 >>the Dallas Morning News that the debris was that of a High
 >>Altitude Weather Balloon, nothing to make a fuss over, no need
 >>to fly it on to WF, end of story. Please also note this was 1 hr
 >>_before_ Irving Newton's ID of the debris was sent out on the
 >AP >wire (6:30 PM FW) AND 30 mins _before_ Newton even came ON
 >>DUTY (6:00 PM FW).

 >>To cap it all Kirton was identified as the AF contact who gave
 >>the information in the teletype to the FBI Dallas office,
 >>presumably shortly before the teletype was sent, after all it
 >>was marked URGENT, and I doubt the FBI would sit on this info
 >>for very long. So, 5:30 PM the debris was a mundane Weather
 >>Balloon for the press, and stopping at Fort Worth AAF yet for
 >>the FBI at approx. 6:00 PM AND reported by the self same Maj
 >>Kirton "telephonic conversation" with the techie's at WF "had
 >>not borne out that belief" i.e., it _wasn't_ 'mundane debris' and
 >>it _was_ being flown on to Wright Field!. Yet at 6:30 PM on the
 >>AP Wire, Irving Newton says again it's a mundane Weather
 >>Balloon. Later that evening, radio reporter Joe Wilson in
 >>Chicago stated he had spoken shortly before the broadcast with
 >>officials at Wright Field and they were _still_ _awaiting_ the
 >>debris arrival. Perhaps FWAAF hadn't told them it was just a
 >>weather balloon and wouldn't be coming?.

 >And let us not forget that Star-Telegram photographer J. Bond
 >Johnson said that General Ramey told him that it was a weather
 >balloon when Johnson arrived to take the photographs earlier in
 >the day. Johnson told me, "I took two pictures [which we now
 >know is probably six] and then they [Ramey] said... 'Oh, we've
 >found out what it is and you know, it's a weather balloon and so
 >forth.'"

 >In a second interview, Johnson said, "I posed General Ramey with
 >this debris. At that time I was briefed on the idea that it was
 >not a flying disk as first reported but, in fact, was a weather
 >balloon that had crashed."

 >So, the story of the weather balloon was in place before any
 >reporters arrived in General Ramey's office.

 >KRandle, Ph.D.

J. Bond Johnson replies:

I cannot imagine why KRandle, Ph.D. continues to mischaracterize
the details of my photo session with General Ramey in his 8th
Air Force headquarters offices on July 8, 1947.

There were never any other reporters known to be in General
Ramey's office that day. These apparently were only figments of
Randle's very fertile imagination.

Randle has taken several hours of phone chats that he initiated
with me -- which consisted primarily of his lecturing me as to
what REALLY happened in the General's office --  and then by
carefully editing his tapes (which he has admitted) he has put
words into my mouth that I never would have said in the context
that he has indicated.

The result is an entirely false and misleading impression.

In trying to reconstruct the details of that photography
assignment for my newspaper, the Fort Worth Star-Telegram, which
I largely had forgotten after the passage of more than 40 years
during which I gave almost no thought to that story -- in trying
to be helpful to Randle even though he never offered to
compensate me in any way for my time, I "tried on" several
possible scenarios to see if such conjecturings would assist in
restoring my memory.

Randle then proceeded to selectively and arbitrarily write his
own story using my various projected theories. That he has not
even come close to providing an accurate account of what might
have happened in connection with the Roswell Event is most
unfortunate.

Randle has interviewed many of the Roswell witnesses and often
has been accused of misquoting them or putting words into their
mouths. When they have challenged his accounts he accuses them
of "changing their stories."

I can appreciate that he is primarily a fiction writer and
certainly not a historian, but it certainly would be helpful if
he would accurately distinguish fiction from at least possible
facts. The results of his unadmirable actions have only further
confused the Roswell story, which is largely constructed of
folklore and little hard evidence and have added nothing
constructive to history.

Now, with dramatic hard evidence unfolding from the dedicated
work of the RPIT international volunteer photo interpretation
group, Randle is further exposed for attempting to twist his
fanciful theories into fact without any real basis for such.
This could not have happened to a more deserving individual.






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   Aug > Aug 26

                European Journal of UFO and Abduction Studies

From: John Hayes <ufoinfo@ukgateway.net>
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 20:01:51 +0100
Fwd Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 07:57:56 -0400
Subject: European Journal of UFO and Abduction Studies


Dear Errol I would like to pass on this 'message' from Craig
Roberts:


European Journal of UFO and Abduction Studies Launch Issue
Craig Roberts
Editor of EJUFOAS
25th August 1999


The first issue of the European Journal of UFO and Abduction
Studies is being published 6th September 1999 and will contain
the following papers:


Project for a database of ball lightning observations in Italy -
Paolo Toselli & Renato Fedele (Italy).

Preliminary identifications of alien contact/abduction
experiences as hallucinatory states induced by prolonged
exposures to electromagnetic pollution in the environment -
Albert Budden (UK).

UFO declassification - the Spanish model - Vicente-Juan
Ballester Olmos (Spain).

Forum Debate Article: Scum, sludge and ufological residue -
Albert Budden (UK).


Those interested in obtaining a copy of the Journal should send
an e-mail to the editor Craig Roberts at ejufoas@totton.ac.uk
for further details or see the entry on UFOINFO at:

http://ufoinfo.com/magazines/uk.shtml#ejufoas
=============================================

John Hayes

ufoinfo@ukgateway.net
webmaster@ufoinfo.com

UFOINFO:- http://ufoinfo.com

Archives for UFO Roundup/Filer's Files/UK UFO Network Bulletin/
AUFORN Australian UFO Reports and Experiences






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   Aug > Aug 26

                      UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 4, Number 18

From: Joseph Trainor - Masinaigan <Masinaigan@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 20:02:04 +0100
Fwd Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 08:04:21 -0400
Subject: UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 4, Number 18



     UFO ROUNDUP
Volume 4, Number 18
August 24, 1999
Editor: Joseph Trainor

DAYLIGHT DISCS SPOTTED
IN PENNSYLVANIA

      On Monday, August 16, 1999, at 2:12 p.m., a
boy living in Berks County, five miles (8 kilometers)
from Reading, Pennsylvania (population 78,380)
"ran into the house very excited and described a
silver disk that he observed high in the sky."
      According to Pennsylvania ufologist Stan Gordon,
"The boy was outside watching some birds flying
around when his attention was drawn to a silver,
disk-shaped object above him and high in the sky.
The young man stated that at the bottom of the disk
he could see what looked like a figure U that was
dark green in color."
      "As the boy watched, suddenly the object zoomed
off at a high rate of speed towards the south.  The
witness recalls a low rumble as the object sped out
of sight in a matter of seconds."
      Reading is approximately 65 miles (104 kilometers)
northwest of Philadelphia.
      Three hours later, at 5:45 p.m., in Butler County,
Pennsylvania, near Pittsburgh, "a husband and wife
(were) relaxing in a swimming pool when...the man
noticed in the eastern sky a circular object that
appeared to be a dull gray metallic color.  The
object was high in the sky and quite small when
first observed," Gordon reported.
      "During the next few minutes, the couple
watched.  The object moved west toward the
direction over Butler (population 15,714).  As the
object got closer, it became larger, and some detail
could be seen. The couple could see that there
were actually two round or circular objects that
appeared to be joined together side by side, but
giving the impression that they were an individual
object.  The objects were 'like quarters (USA
25-cent coin--J.T.) on edge.'  And they appeared
thin with little depth."
      "As the couple continued to watch, the
objects suddenly stopped," Gordon added, "Then
made a 90-degree turn towards the north and
moved behind a tree, blocking the view of the
observers."
      The UFOs did not reenter the couple's field
of vision.  Both witnesses reported, "No sound was
heard during the observation."  (Many thanks to
Stan Gordon for this news story.)

CROP CIRCLE REPORTED
IN BRITISH COLUMBIA

      On Saturday, August 7, 1999, Jeff Otto was
driving on the Junction 37 Highway in northern
British Columbia when he spotted an unusual
crop circle on the right-hand side of the
highway, close to Ealve Lake.
      The area is 54 miles (90 kilometers) south
of Dease Lake, B.C., and about 210 miles
(336 kilometers) north of Vancouver, Canada's
major port on the Pacific Ocean.
      According to David Pengilly of UFO*BC and
Paul Anderson of Circles Phenomenon Research-
Canada, the crop circle was "a single circle in wild
grass...approximately 100 feet (30 meters) in
diameter..  The circle is reportedly flattened down
among the standing plants."  (Many thanks to
Paul Anderson of Circles Phenomenon Research-
Canada for this report.)

PHANTOM PANTHER ON THE
PROWL IN MINNESOTA

      The small town of Hugo, Minnesota
(population 4,417) has been and continues to
be the site of repeated sightings of a phantom
panther, a full-grown panther or black leopard
that has been seen, photographed and
videotaped since June 11, 1999.
      "The black feline roaming the fields and
woods of Hugo eluded capture last weekend
but was caught on film, leading officials to
believe that the mysterious interloper is not
just a big barn cat."
      "'I am now convinced it is a black leopard,'
said Wayne Eller, a conservation officer with
the state Department of Natural Resources
(DNR), who covers most of Washington County,
including Hugo.  'There's no doubt in my mind,'
Eller said, after seeing a dozen photos taken
Saturday (August 14, 1999) by a Forest Lake
Township man."
      "Eller noted that the big cat was seen in
daylight Saturday by four people, including Mark
Richert, the second Washington County deputy
to spot it.  The first deputy saw the cat late on
June 11 near a Hugo butcher shop, not far from
last weekend's sightings."
      "Eller and county deputies responded about
1 p.m. Saturday after David Johnson and his wife
reported seeing and photographing the cat in a
grass field on their land in Forest Lake Township,
near Hugo's northern boundary."
      "Deputies started patrolling area roads and
Richert saw the cat loping along in a ditch.  Then
another resident spotted it and fired a gun to
attract deputies as the car bolted into a swampy
area near Henna Avenue and 170th Street near
Hardwood Creek in Hugo."
      "'I thought we finally had it cornered in about a
square-mile swampy area,' Eller said.  But his plans
began unravelling as several deputies were called
away to a drowning at Big Carnelian Lake.  He
waited for an hour for a tracker with dogs...The
tracker came without the dogs...So Eller asked the
tracker and another DNR officer, both armed with
guns and two-way radios, to walk through the swamp
to flush out the cat.  They beat the underbrush to
drive the cat toward Eller and a deputy who waited
with a shotgun and a high-powered rifle.  The DNR
officer heard what sounded like a large animal in the
brush, but no cat appeared."
      "'I really thought we had him.  I'd like some
closure, just for my peace of mind,' said Eller, who
retires this month.  'I don't want anyone hurt.  I'd
like to catch it so people could let their kids play in
the yard again.'"
      "'The cat has not created a single problem
with anyone we know of,' Eller said.  'A big predator
will avoid fighting at all costs, because if it gets
hurt, it cuts down its efficiency for escape and
hunting.'  He said the car has plenty of rabbits,
gophers and small game for food."
      "Beth Jo Schoeberl, a zoologist who works
with leopards at the Minnesota Zoo, also urged
caution.  After seeing photocopies of David
Johnson's pictures, she said, 'My best guess is
that it's a juvenile leopard.  It's not a jaguar, which
is very stocky.  I don't know of any black pumas.'"
      "'I'd guess somebody had it as a pet or to
breed it, and it escaped,' Schoeberl said, and if so,
it could be more dangerous because it might not
fear humans."
      "'They are natural-born killing machines,'
Schoeberl said.  'Anything that runs is fair game;
it evokes a natural response to pounce on
something that runs.  Little kids or pets are
possibly at risk.'"
      Hugo, Minn. is located about 11 miles
(17 kilometers) north of St. Paul, the state
capital.
      "Hugo Mayor Wally Stoltzman has advised
residents to watch their children carefully and
keep them in at night...Stoltzman said the calls
about possible leopard sightings keep pouring in.
'It seems to go in seclusion for a while, and then
all of a sudden, it pops up again,' he said.  'This
car has nine lives.'"  (See the Minneapolis, Minn.
Star-Tribune for August 19, 1999, page B3,
"Pictures of Hugo cat convince DNR officer it's
a leopard.")

RESIDENTS SEE UFO FLEET
NEAR AYELSHAM, KENT, UK

      Between fifty and sixty residents of Ayelsham,
Kent, UK, a small town near Dover about 80 miles
(128 kilometers) southeast of London spotted
"an armada" of bright silvery high-flying UFOs on
Sunday, August 1, 1999.
      One witness had a camcorder handy and
shot several minutes of footage.
      The video reportedly shows "many of these
objects clearly visible" and "also shows an
aircraft (anti-collision lights, etc.) passing
underneath them, indicating that the objects
were at a very high altitude."
      "The eyewitnesses claim that all the
participants in this 'armada' were multi-coloured
and reflective."
      "The videotape shows only silver-coloured
objects in no discernible pattern, crossing from
north to south in slow procession, although there
were two other objects lagging behind and
seemed to accelerate to catch up with the main
group."
      On Monday, August 2, 1999, the video was
aired on a local TV news broadcast in Dover.
The news team interviewed British ufologist
Timothy J. Good."
      A meteorologist interviewed for the
broadcast reportedly explained that the UFOs
may have been "helium-filled ballons let off
from Maidstone (Kent)" in an event designed
"to benefit cancer research."  (Many thanks
to Jerry Anderson for forwarding this report.)
(Editor's Comment: If the objects were balloons,
then how could two of them suddenly speed up
and catch up with the main group?)

"FERRIS WHEEL" UFO
DAZZLES AUSTRALIANS

      On Sunday, August 15, 1999, at 8:50 p.m.,
a giant, brightly-lit UFO, "shaped like a Ferris
wheel," appeared over Marsden, Queensland,
Australia, a town 38 kilometers (22 miles)
south of Brisbane.
      The UFO was sighted by four residents of
Hickory Street in Marsden, who kept it in
view for 40 minutes.
      Witnesses estimated that the huge object
"was 45 degrees above the horizon" and was
"heading west towards Jimboomba."
      They described the UFO as looking "like
a Ferris wheel lying on its side, the size of a
football field, white with more than 50 lights."
      Miss J. Sharn, an eyewitness, said, "It
was awesome--the size of a football field.
It had two rows of lights turning in opposite
directions.  The object was laying on its
side.  It reminded me of Close Encounters,
the movie, and do you know, not one of us
was scared of it.  Not at all.  I was so excited.
I ran over to my neighbour, who was outside,
and asked him to look.  'Can you see what I
see?'  He looked and said, 'Shit!' and ran
inside."
      "My friends and I went over to the park to
get a better look," she added.  "It was so cold,
but no one wanted to go inside to get our
jackets.  (Editor's Note:  Right now it's winter
in Australia and the other countries of the
southern hemisphere.)  We didn't want to miss
a moment of it.  We could see the reflection of
the lights on the clouds, turning very fast.  When
the clouds moved, it disappeared."  (Many thanks
to Diane Harrison of the Australian UFO Research
Network for this report.)

WORKMEN SEE LUMINOUS
UFO IN SOUTHERN BRAZIL

      On Saturday, August 21, 1999, at 12:58 a.m.,
Roberto Rabelo and three other municipal water
department workers saw a highly luminous UFO
hovering above the water treatment plant in the
city of Cubatao, Sao Paulo state, Brazil.
      While at the ETA water plant in Cubatao,
Rabelo reported, "It was around 12:58 a.m., and
I looked to the north and saw the OVNI
(Portuguese acronym for UFO--J.T.) at low
altitude.  One of the (plant) operators said that
it could be a short-circuit in an electrical tower.
Then we climbed the tower and realized that the
thing was not conventional."
      "The OVNI was much higher.  The OVNI had
a red light on top and three other red lights below
it in a triangular shape.  The lights did not blink."
      "Seconds later, between the red lights--a lot of
flashes, hundreds of white flashes.  Then they
all disappeared.  I estimated the OVNI to be larger
than a futbol (soccer in the USA--J.T.) field."
      Again the UFO appeared, Rabelo added,
"just like the first time, but this time with the
flashing lights turned off.  From the OVNI, another
object, like a yellow ball, came out, which flew off
in the direction of the COSIPA," a local food-
processing factory.
      "For the third time, the OVNI appeared again,
and this time we were able to see a dark 'shadow,'
triangular in shape, behind the red lights.  Finally
the OVNI left in an easterly direction, passing over
the COSIPA."
      The four men had the UFO in view for
approximately 20 minutes.  (Muito obrigado a
Thiago Luiz Ticchetti por eso caso.)

CASSINI COMPLETES
RENDEZVOUS WITH EARTH

      On Tuesday, August 17, 1999, the Cassini
spacecraft flew past Earth at 8:28 p.m. Pacific
Daylight Time, passing 727 miles (1,171
kilometers) above Pitcairn Island in the South
Pacific.
      The robot spacecraft was launched from
Cape Canaveral, Florida, USA on October 15,
1997.  With last week's flyby of Earth,
Cassini concludes its "tour" of the inner planets.
Its previous stop was Venus.
      As it passed each of the inner planets,
Cassini picked up a "gravity boost," adding to
its speed and adjusting its trajectory for the
long trip to Saturn.
      According to the NASA news release,
"Cassini's mission is to study Saturn, its moons,
its elaborate rings, and its magnetic and
radiation environments for four years.  Cassini
will also deliver the European Space Agency's
(ESA) Huygens probe via parachute to the
surface of Saturn's (largest) moon, Titan."
      "The flyby gave Cassini a 5.5 kilometer-per-
second (12,000 miles per hour) boost in speed,
sending the spacecraft on toward the ringed
planet almost one billion kilometers away."
      During the flyby, nine of Cassini's 12
science systems were turned on and aimed at
Earth and Luna, also known as the moon, to
make observations.
      Next stop for Cassini is Jupiter.  Cassini
will fly by the gas giant on December 30, 2000.
"The giant planet's gravity will bend Cassini's
flight path to put it on course for arrival into
orbit around Saturn on July 1, 2004."
      Cassini will attempt to drop the Huygens
probe onto Titan on November 30, 2004."
(Many thanks to Steve Wilson Sr. for the
NASA news release.)

Y2K: SECRET NAVY STUDY
PREDICTS WIDESPREAD
POWER FAILURES

      "A (U.S.) Navy report predicts 'probable' or
'likely' power failures in electrical and water
systems for many cities because of the Year
2000 technology problem--an assessment more
dire than any other made by the government."
      "President Clinton's top Y2K adviser,
John Koskinen, called the Navy's conclusions
overly cautious, saying they assumed that major
utilities would fail unless proved otherwise."
      "The most recent version of the Navy study,
updated about two weeks ago, predicted
'probable' or 'likely' partial failures in electric
utilities that serve nearly 60 of roughly 400
Navy and Marine Corps facilities."
      "The study predicted that partial electrical
failures are 'likely,' for example, in Orlando, Fla.;
Gulfport, Miss.;Fort Lauderdale, Fla. and nine
other small to mid-size cities."
      "It also predicted partial water system
failures are probable in Dallas, Nashville,
Houston, Baton Rouge, La., Montgomery, Ala.,
Tulsa, Okla. and 59 other cities."
      "The study forecast partial natural gas
failures as 'likely' in Albany, N.Y., Fort Worth,
Texas, Pensacola, Fla., Charleston, S.C.,
Columbus, Ohio and Nashville, Tenn."
      "The military report contrasts sharply with
predictions from the White House, which weeks
ago said in a report that national electrical
failures are 'highly unlikely.'  The White House
report also said that disruptions in water
service from the date rollover from 99 to 00
are 'increasingly unlikely.'"
      "'The way they worked was, until you have
information for contingency planning purposes,
you ought to assume there was a problem,'
said Koskinen, who vouched for the Navy
report's authenticity."
      "The Navy report was initially summarized
on an Internet site run by Jim Lord, a Y2K
author, who said he obtained it "from a
confidential source of the highest reliability
and integrity.'"
      "'The military has to work from the worst
case, but so do we,' Lord said.  'It's
reprehensible for them to know this and
keep it from us.'"
      "Koskinen said the Navy wasn't
witholding information, noting that it was
available on a Defense Department website."
      "However, the report was removed from
the site about two weeks ago."  Neither
"Koskinen nor the department offered an
explanation."  (See the Minneapolis, Minn.
Star-Tribune for August 20, 1999, page A10,
"Many cities may experience Y2K-related
failures, Navy predicts."

from the UFO Files...

1915: DINOSAURS' D-DAY

      During the evening hours of July 30, 1915,
Unterseeboot  (German for submarine) U-28
was on a wartime patrol in the Atlantic Ocean
when a lookout in the conning tower reported
an Allied ship on the horizon.
      Immediately the klaxon sounded.  German
sailors rushed to their battle stations.  The
boat's skipper, Kapitanleutnant Freiherr (Baron)
von Forstner ordered, "Secure the hatch and
dive."
      "Dive!  Dive!" the coxswain shouted.
      "Fifteen degrees down rudder.  Level off
at twenty meters," Von Forstner said, throwing
the periscope switch.  Instantly the steel tube
rose from its steel well.
      What happened next qualifies as the
strangest incident of World War One.
      Holding the periscope handles, Von Forstner
peered through the eyepiece.  Outlined in the
faint moonlight was the silhouette of a British
freighter, the S.S. Iberian.
      "Range one hundred meters.  Prepare
torpedo."
      "Jawohl, Herr Kapitan," the coxswain
replied, "Torpedo ready!"
      Von Forstner snapped, "Fire!"
      Writing in U-28's ship's log, the German
captain reported, "There was a violent
explosion, 25 seconds after the Iberian
went under, and a few seconds later, a
gigantic sea monster was hurled, writhing
and struggling, around 30 meters (100 feet)
into the air.  The monster was around 20
meters (66 feet) long, shaped like a crocodile.
His head was long and pointed; he had four
legs terminating in big fins.  He remained
above water for around 5 seconds, so there
was no time to photograph him.  Three other
officers saw him."
      Incredibly, on the same night, July 30, 1915,
elsewhere in the Atlantic, another German
U-boat reported an encounter with a seagoing
dinosaur.
      Aboard the U-20, Kapitanleutnant Werner-
Lowisch reported, "Saw a sea serpent at 10 p.m.,
without possibility of doubt.  The creature had a
longish head, scales like a crocodile's, and legs
with proper feet.  The mate saw him, but when the
captain came up from below, the monster had
vanished.  The monster was about 27 meters
(90 feet) long."
     July 30, 1915:  D-Day for dinosaurs!?
(See the book Strange Mysteries of the Great
War by Harold T. Wilkins, London, 1935.)

      Join us next time for more UFO news from
around the planet, brought to you by "the paper
that goes home--UFO Roundup."  Have a great
week!

UFO ROUNDUP: Copyright 1999 by Masinaigan
Productions, all rights reserved.  Readers may
post news items from UFO Roundup on their
websites or in newsgroups provided that they
credit the newsletter and its editor by name and
list the date of issue in which the item first
appeared.
================================================

John Hayes

ufoinfo@ukgateway.net
webmaster@ufoinfo.com

UFOINFO:- http://ufoinfo.com

Archives for UFO Roundup/Filer's Files/UK UFO Network Bulletin/
AUFORN Australian UFO Reports and Experiences






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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Aug > Aug 26

                           Jorge Martin's e-mail?

From: Thiago Ticchetti <thiagolt@opengate.com.br>
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 19:26:31 -0300
Fwd Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 08:09:28 -0400
Subject: Jorge Martin's e-mail?

Hello fellas,

I really need Jorge Martin's e-mail address.

It is very important and urgent.

Thanks.

THIAGO LUIZ TICCHETTI
Diretor Do Departamento de Publicao e Traduo Especializadas
( DEPTE - EBE-ET / Brasilia-Brasil)
Director of the Publication Department and Specialized Translation
ICQ - 35119615
http://www.ebe-et.com.br







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                       Recent OZ Sightings [08-25-99]

From: Diane Harrison - Keith Basterfield Network <tkbnetw@fan.net.au>
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 09:42:33 +1000
Fwd Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 08:15:06 -0400
Subject: Recent OZ Sightings  [08-25-99]


For members of UFO UpDates from the TKBnetwork in OZ

Some UFO reports come in via snail mail and I have to type them
up for posting. Most times the reports are old by a few months
"from some investigator" but never the less still interesting.

What we all have to remember we rely on the generosity of the
investigators for the time and effort in collating and
collecting such reports, and most of you would be aware the
investigators "do not get paid".

"Darn it" :>()

So when an old-ish UFO report is sent in to me via snail mail I
still find them interesting and I try to find out whether other
UFO sightings have occurred in that area and at what time.

I call it "Networking" a pattern of information collected to
form a Net.

A little like fishing, cast the net and see what you catch.

The bigger the net the bigger the catch "right" Keep up the
great work everyone "lets go fishing :>)"

Regards Diane Harrison

Co Director of The Australian UFO Research Network.
Australian Skywatch Director & Founder of
The Keith Basterfield Network Australasia

A network that works together stays together
Cheer's from the "A Team"

Enjoy:)
________________________________

Date: 19.07.1999
Day; Monday
Time Reported: 8.11pm
Source: Alan Do
Location: Fernvale
Tel: 03 9752
Report given to nearest rep: Diane
E-mail: tkbnetw@fan.net.au

Report:

Alan said he as never reported anything before but felt
he had to reports this sighting. He said he saw 8 orange
stars and these stars where moving south east, I have
never seen orange stars fly by before. Do you get many
reports of orange flying stars at all?

Regards Diane Harrison
______________________________________

Report 1.

Via snail mail AUFORN Rep Victoria Wellard
for Holloways Beach Far North QLD

Victoria is in her 60s and doing a great job
thankyou Victoria.

Date: 07.06.1999
Time:11.40pm
Location: Manunda, Cairns, Qld Australia
Duration of sighting: 10 minutes
Observation: 20 degrees to the horizon
Direction: North East moving North West
Shape: Round
Size: very big
Lights: Colour very bright orange
Weather: Clear
Number of sightees: 1

Mr M as asked for his name to be kept out
of the report but is happy to inform us of what
he saw.

I noticed a bright object travelling N.E to N.W
horizontally at approximately 20 degrees to the
horizon.

I discounted it being Venus because Venus
shines white this thing was a very bright and
orange.

The object progressively fading to magnitude 2 over
10 minutes. The accurate point of reference for distance
is it was behind trees approximately 10 meters away
from me, I went out into the street for an unobstructed
view of the object.

At 11.50pm I telephoned Cairns International Airport
control tower to find out if they had observed the object
on radar. The A.C.T told me there was no aircraft in
the controlled airspace at that time.
The control tower is approximately 2klm away from
my observation of the object.

I did report the matter to the local UFO group
but did not call the police.

What was really strange about the whole thing I
was visited by 2 Queensland police officers on a so
called unrelated matter, I had a letter stolen out of
my mail box 5 weeks ago.
I thought this very strange that they would even wast
their time investigating this and why 5 weeks later???.

Report 2.

Via snail mail AUFORN Rep Victoria Wellard.

Date: 18.09.1998
Time:8.00pm
Location: Cairns, Qld Australia
Duration of sighting: 30 minutes
Observation: On top mountain range
Direction: North West
Shape: Round
Size: very big
Lights: Colour very bright white
Weather: Clear
Number of sightees: 4 Mr A.F Manies & Mr W Strong,
B Strong & J Strong

We were Fishing on the jetty, early in the night
and witnessed a moving object in the sky. It
move to just over the top of the mountain range.
Then it went below the mountains for a while,
then it re-appeared just above it and moved to
the center of the sky at about 50 degrees then it
shoot off at tremendous speed.

I was skeptical about UFO until I saw this thing
move. END.

Report 3.

Via snail mail AUFORN Rep Victoria Wellard.

Date: 15.11. 1998
Time: 4.15pm
Location: Hollowys Beach, Qld, Australia
Duration of sighting: 15 minutes
Observation: My back yard
Direction: North West to South East
Shape: Cigar Shape
Size: very big
Lights: Colour very bright orange Flashing
Weather: Clear
Number of sightees: 1 Victoria Wellard

I saw a cigar shaped object with two very bright orange
one behind the other & flashing alternately and quite
low in the sky travelling NW to SE slowly, no noise.
At arms length it would have been as big as a golf ball.
Then I lost sight of it when it disappeared over my
neighbours roof.

Victoria Wellard AUFORN for Holloways
Beach Far North QLD

Thank you for sharing these reports
Victoria Wellard AUFORN
Rep Holloways Beach North QLD

The Keith Basterfield Network Australasia
E-mail tkbnetw@fan.net.au
http://www.fan.net.au/~tkbnetw/new

UFO Australian Research Network Hot Line Number
1800 77 22 88 A Free Call any State Any Time.







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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Aug > Aug 26

               Re: Research Proposal - Hypnotic Suggestibility

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 99 19:07:12 PDT
Fwd Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 08:21:55 -0400
Subject: Re: Research Proposal - Hypnotic Suggestibility


 >From: Tim D. Brigham <TBrigham@ksinc.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
 >Subject: Re: Research Proposal - Hypnotic Suggestibility
 >Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 17:55:13 -0500

 >>Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 10:11:38 -0400
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
 >>From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Research Proposal - Hypnotic Suggestibility

 >>>Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 09:14:34 -0500
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
 >>>From: joel henry <jhenry@visi.com>
 >>>Subject: Re: Research Proposal - Hypnotic Suggestibility

 >>>>From: Tim D. Brigham <TBrigham@ksinc.net>
 >>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
 >>>>Subject: Re: Research Proposal - Hypnotic Suggestibility
 >>>>Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 13:03:21 -0500


 >>I would also point out that there is a project that has been
 >>underway for the past several years known as the "Abduction
 >>Monitorring Project", which is being coordinated by the UFO
 >>Coalition. This is not a "sleep monitorring" effort, per se,
 >>but is attempting to monitor the area surrounding the "abductee"
 >>for changes. Details are being kept under wraps to keep this
 >>research from becoming tainted, and will involve test subjects
 >>in several locations around the U.S.

 >I agree that additional study of this area is needed, but the
 >cynic that is me requires me to add that I hope that if _no
 >evidence or support_ for the physical abduction hypothesis is
 >found (which I suspect, for various reasons, will be the case),
 >that those involved will be as quick to make those findings
 >public as they would if they caught an alien on videotape,
 >documented environmental changes, or some such. I merely wonder
 >"can someone not have already done this? and if so, why haven't
 >we heard about it?" Not finding what you want or expect to find
 >should be made public as well, as I think most will agree.

My word. I know rather more about this quiet experiment than you
evidently do. The participants are largely neutrals in the
abduction debate (as you are not, I gather), and most are
scientifically trained. They are determined to conduct the
experiment in a methodologically proper manner, so that the
results -- whatever they are -- actually have a chance of
_meaning_ something. None of them has a stake in the outcome,
and the results, when available, will be published in the
appropriate forum.

Jerry Clark








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   Aug > Aug 26

                     Re: Socorro: The Zamora 'Insignia'

From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 20:13:50 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 08:19:02 -0400
Subject: Re: Socorro: The Zamora 'Insignia'


 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
 >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >Subject: Re: Socorro: The Zamora 'Insignia'
 >Date: Tue, 24 Aug 99 19:55:33 PDT

 >>Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 12:46:24 -0400
 >>From: Andy Roberts <Brigantia@compuserve.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Socorro: The Zamora 'Insignia'
 >>To: UFO Updates <updates@globalserve.net>

 >>>Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 03:45:17 -0400
 >>>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >>>Subject: Re: Socorro: The Zamora 'Insignia'
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>


<Great, gigantic, huge snip>


  Hi, All

If Errol would only pay five cents a word or if I didn't have to
pick up my kid from school, I'd explain all this stuff about a
witness' testimony and the unidentified nature of the perceived
phenomenon straightaway.

But he ain't and I do.

Suffice it to say this: an oral description of an event ain't
the event itself, although Dave Rudiak will beg to differ when
it suits his purposes.

UFO insignias are relatively rare; if Zamorra's coincidentally
resembles an insignia that can be shown to have existed at the
time, then that avenue deserves to be pursued to its ultimate
conclusion.

As does the question, if Zamorra was dead on, where did his
spaceship with an insignia _go_? Was it a one off event, or
should we expect to see the same insignia reported repeatedly
over space and time during the ensuing years? Or if not, why
not?

Did the aliens, fearful that their insignia would give them away
-- now that it had been revealed in the UFO literature -- order
a fleet-wide white-over of same? ("Now they won't be able to
recognize us!") Or was it at about this point that the aliens
decided it would be better to develop that selective
invisibility program (per Budd Hopkins) that they'd been working
on all along? ("Damn! I don't know why we didn't think of that
to begin with!")

And enlarge the interiors at the same time, the examination
rooms having grown rather cramped by now? ("Hey, the old FD [for
Flying Disc] 107 ain't what it used to be!" In Telepathic Speak,
of course.) I mean, if you're going to retrofit anyway...why not
go whole hog? (Insert the vastly improved, insignialess FD-127
at this stage.)

My personal feeling, however, is that --

Damn, gotta get my kid before the aliens do!

Dennis





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                  Re: Next Opportunity for Images of 'Face'

From: Mac Tonnies <Alintelbot@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 21:06:22 EDT
Fwd Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 08:25:47 -0400
Subject: Re: Next Opportunity for Images of 'Face'


 >>Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 23:59:29 -0800
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
 >>From: Paul Anderson - TMP / CPR-Canada <psa@direct.ca>
 >>Subject: TMP News: Next Opportunity for Images of 'Face' on Mars


I've written NASA and other organizations re. the "Face"
and affiliated landforms before.  Here's a typical reply,
accompanied by my own reply back to NASA.

I'm not sure who this Woody Smith is, but he doesn't seem
to be very bright.  Somewhere along the way, NASA's stated
policy of open disclosure has been perverted into the usual
"People Interested in the Face on Mars are Kooks" treatment.

--Mac Tonnies

####

In a message dated 8/2/99 8:44:59 AM, Woody Smith wrote:

 >We didn't miss [chance to photograph Face] at all. The following
 >location contains high-resolution photographs taken by the Mars
 >Global Surveyor of the "Face on Mars," which clearly show it to
 >be a natural formation.

I'm very much aware of the April 5 image (just one image,
contrary to your message).  The "Face" is quite likely natural,
but I don't think the April image "clearly" shows anything
conclusive.  Indeed, it has revealed several new features that
deserve to be looked at.  Also, the photograph in question,
though of great interest, was taken under less than optimal
lighting and weather conditions.  The imaging opportunity on
August 26 should allow us to look straight down at the alleged
"Face" under vastly improved conditions.

I stand by the reasonable, inquisitive attitude expressed
in my initial letter.

Sincerely,

Mac Tonnies
[address]






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   Aug > Aug 26

                  Re: Abductions: A Funny Thing Happened...

From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 21:10:19 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 08:41:06 -0400
Subject: Re: Abductions: A Funny Thing Happened...


 >From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 21:53:45 EDT
 >Subject: Re: Abductions: A Funny Thing Happened...
 >To: updates@globalserve.net

 >Glad you guys made it through the sturm undt drang down
 >that-a-way. Wouldn't want youse to suffer the indignity of being
 >carried away by a lot of fast-blowing hot-air. Even the one from
 >that hurricain. No, not the one the authorities came to blame,
 >for sumthin' that he never done. Like John Ford, put in a prison
 >cell but one, time he coulda been, the champeen of the Klass..

 >Don't rhyme, but then I aint no Lehmburg. Even when sober.

 >Love,
 >J. Jaime Gesundt,
 >Debunker of Tutti Debunkers


Quoting again:

"I started out on burgundy, but soon hit the harder stuff My
friends said they'd stick behind me when the going got rough But
the joke was on me -- there was nobody there to bluff I think
I'm going back to New York City -- I do believe I've had
enough."

And remember: "The cops don't need you, boy, and man they expect
the same."

SA Sasquatch





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   Aug > Aug 26

              Bright Blue Flash Of Light Over San Francisco Bay

From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@get2net.dk>
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 05:07:46
Fwd Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 08:44:34 -0400
Subject: Bright Blue Flash Of Light Over San Francisco Bay


Source: alt.ufo.reports

Stig

***

From: Mark069@hotmail.com
Newsgroups: alt.ufo.reports
Subject: Bay Area: Bright Flash of Blue Light in Sky.
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 20:44:34 GMT


Anyone else see a bright blue flash of light in the southern sky
of the bay area this morning?  I heard an initial report on CBS
Radio that people had called in and they were checking with
Vandenberg Airforce Base for any missile tests but there were
none...

Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.





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                   The Brave New World Of Arthur C. Clarke

From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@get2net.dk>
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 05:45:45
Fwd Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 09:08:07 -0400
Subject: The Brave New World Of Arthur C. Clarke


Source: Asiaweek,

http://www.pathfinder.com:80/asiaweek/current/issue/cs2.html

Stig

***





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   Aug > Aug 26

                Re: 'Doorway Amnesia' & Modern Day Abductees?

From: Sue Strickland <strick@H2Net.net>
Date: Sat, 21 Mar 1998 22:26:31 -0700
Fwd Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 09:16:12 -0400
Subject: Re: 'Doorway Amnesia' & Modern Day Abductees?


 >From: Jenny Randles <nufon@currantbun.com>
 >To: <updates@globalserve.net>
 >Subject: Re: 'Doorway Amnesia' & Modern Day Abductees?
 >Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 11:07:06 +0100

Hi Jenny, Roy, Greg, ebk, Tim, Dennis and all other list
members,

I just wanted to share another funny bone you all keep tickling.
I'm one experiencer that hasn't lost her sense of humor.
Picture this:

You're 12 and you've come over to my house on a Friday night to
spend the night. We're going to cram for the French exam. The
downstairs of my home is something from "House Beautiful"
magazine, so since you've never seen my room, you expect it to
be just as lovely.

I open the door to my room and what happens next makes you cover
your face. You're assailed by a putrid, decaying odor that makes
you gag.  I say, "Don't mind my room, it's always this way.  It
used to bother me, but the swamp gas is something I have to live
with."  You'd rather leave, but after a few short minutes the
odor seems to subside.  Besides, your curiosity is peeked.  You
decide to find out what in the world caused this swamp gas odor
in my bedroom.

Well, unfortunately for you, you don't have to wait long.

While sitting on the bed studying, trying to keep from noticing
the green slime-covered walls and floors, you suddenly notice
the outside wall to the bedroom beginning to deform and
part... and what to your wondering eyes do you see?

The wall has suddenly given birth to a huge hot-air balloon and
it's floated right into this bedroom swamp. The room fills with
a white fog and the swamp gas odor intensifies. The balloon
takes up the whole room.  There's no place to run.  You look
over at me to see if I'm seeing the same thing.

I'm laughing and crying, bent over with tears streaming down my
face.

"She must be hysterical.  I must be dreaming," you say out loud.

After all, you could have fallen asleep studying.  You gag and
bend over the edge of the bed to throw up. It's so foggy-white
you can't see  the edges of the balloon, where it ends...it just
goes up and up into and beyond the roof.  You don't remember
what happened after that.

You wake up the next morning beside me, with the sun shining in
the windows.

The bedroom is painted a light sage-blue, with white and yellow
daisy print accent pillows, curtains and furniture to match. It
doesn't smell like swamp gas. There's no balloon in the room.
It's orderly, clean and just as attractive as the rest of the
house.  You were dreaming, right?

You jump out of bed to go to the bathroom.  Oops!  You slip.

You turn and see your vomit on the floor beside the edge of the
bed.  You look over at me, and notice I'm wearing your pj's and
look down to see you're wearing mine.  How strange.

Then you begin to remember the 'dream'.

Now, this last little story is just that...a funny little story.
It's not real.  It didn't happen.  It's made up.

What isn't funny is that the very strangeness that it imparts is
the very _exact_ strangeness that we abductees deal with when
they come to 'visit'.  It has elements of what really does
happen.

So, when you think about this kind of strangeness, don't imagine
you'll enjoy it, or wish it to happen to you or your friends and
family.

Don't think that just because you don't understand it, that it
didn't happen exactly like you perceived it.

Try to find out why the vomit is just where you knew it was, and
decided to ignore it.

Hugs, Sue





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   Aug > Aug 26

              TMP News: Addendum - Fax Numbers for NASA and CNN

From: Paul Anderson - TMP / CPR-Canada <psa@direct.ca>
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 00:23:42 -0800
Fwd Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 09:19:46 -0400
Subject: TMP News: Addendum - Fax Numbers for NASA and CNN


TMP News
News and Updates from The Millennium Project

http://persweb.direct.ca/psa


Addendum - Fax Numbers for NASA and CNN


August 26, 1999

_____________________________


Editor:
Paul Anderson
Director
The Millennium Project

_____________________________


A brief addendum regarding the previous report yesterday on the
next opportunity for the Mars Global Surveyor to take new images
of the "Face on Mars" on *August 27*, during its current mapping
mission.

Here are fax numbers (more effective for this kind of thing than
e-mail) for NASA (Dan Goldin) and CNN, which were missing from
yesterday's e-mail update:

NASA (Dan Goldin)
202.358.2810

CNN
404.681.3578

Let them know that you want the Face and Cydonia reimaged, and
the raw images released *without delay*. There will be another
pass by the spacecraft over the region in November.

Link to report on The McDaniel Report Newsletter web site:

http://www.mcdanielreport.com/flyby.htm

TMP will be adding more information, findings and links
relating to this issue in Special Research Projects
(http://persweb.direct.ca/psa/srp.html) on the web site:

http://persweb.direct.ca/psa/cydonia.html


_____________________________


TMP News is the e-mail update service of The Millennium
Project, and is published periodically or as breaking news
develops, with the latest news and information and is
available free by subscription; to be added to or removed
from the mailing list, send your request, including "subscribe
TMP News" or "unsubscribe TMP News" and e-mail address
to:

psa@direct.c

Subscribers to The Millennium Report, the monthly e-mail
newsletter of TMP (coming September, 1999) will also
receive TMP News

TMP welcomes your reports and submissions. Forward all
correspondence to:


THE MILLENNIUM PROJECT

Suite 202 - 2086 West 2nd Avenue
Vancouver, BC  V6J 1J4
Canada
Tel / Fax: 604.731.8522
E-Mail: psa@direct.ca
Web: http://persweb.direct.ca/psa


� The Millennium Project, 1999






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                Re: 'Doorway Amnesia' & Modern Day Abductees?

From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net>
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 03:57:58 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 09:21:58 -0400
Subject: Re: 'Doorway Amnesia' & Modern Day Abductees?

 >Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 05:45:01 -0500
 >From: Amy Hebert <yelorose@swbell.net>
 >Subject: Re: 'Doorway Amnesia' & Modern Day Abductees?
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>

 >>Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 03:00:12 -0400
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
 >>From: John Velez<jvif@spacelab.net>
 >>Subject: Re: 'Doorway Amnesia' & Modern Day Abductees?

 >>I would hope that researchers who ignore testimony in favor of
 >>their own beliefs/biases are in the extreme minority. The
 >>"abduction researchers" (which is a misnomer, most of them are
 >>investigative authors/reporters) that I have met are men who are
 >>reporting on what they have been told by the experiencers.

Hi Amy,

You responded:

 >You are certainly right about the differences between abduction
 >researchers and investigative authors/reporters. Those who
 >_research_ abductions do so to gather information to gain a
 >clearer perspective of the phenomenon while investigative
 >authors/reporters may only seek material for their next article
 >or book. Sometimes researchers become authors/reporters and
 >authors/reporters become researchers. It's gotten hard, lately,
 >to tell the difference.

Semantics Amy. I think we need to define terms. (For me) a
"researcher" is a highly trained and independant (in terms of
belief one way or the other) professional. Preferably someone
trained in the sciences with the credentials and expertise to
back up his/her findings.

In my book if they don't fit that definition then they are
"authors" or investigative reporters and nothing more.

 >Unfortunately, John, as a counselor I have seen the down side of
 >the low standards and unethical practices used by many so-called
 >"researchers". I've seen what happens to the abductees when they
 >have had encounters of the worst kind - with attention greedy
 >investigators/authors/self-professed researchers. I don't know
 >if these types of "researchers" are common but I do know they
 >are much more prevelant than most people realize. I've known
 >many...some were/are my dearest friends.

Again a case of 'semantics.' What you call a "researcher" (if
they conduct themselves as you describe above) is nothing more
than an oportunist or charlatan. The title "researcher" should
be held in reserve for those who have dedicated a lifetime to
study and work in their chosen field. And preferably someone
with a Ph.D in their chosen discipline.

 >Without established guidelines and formal, ethical standards of
 >practice, it's become a free-for-all where everyone from the
 >quack down the street to doctors, scientists and college
 >professors are sharing the same lecture podiums, the same pens
 >at books signings and often appear side-by-side on TV specials.

I agree. When I first arrived on the public scene some six years
ago ufology was in a sad state. It has only worsened with time.
You can count the number of serious/qualified people that are
involved without having to take your shoes off!  :)

 >Unfortunately, from my experiences, I *have* noted bias and
 >self-promotion in many "researchers/investigators" rather than a
 >serious emphasis on research and careful investigation. There is
 >bias in all research. I think rather than deny the existence of
 >this trend, we need to bring it into clearer focus and evaluate
 >the symptoms, causes and solutions.

Charlatans. As*holes with a personal agenda.

 >>2. The only recollection that I have of an access door came up
 >>during a hypnosis session. (Material that I do not recall
 >>consciously and clearly, I have a tendency not to trust or put
 >>much stock in.)

 >You are very wise, John. ;>

50 years of living has a way of either 'wisening you up' or
killing you off quickly!

Johnny Winter wrote:

"Every now and then I know it's kinda hard to tell, but I'm
still alive and well!"  <VBG>

Keep fighting the good fight and let the 'Lords of Karma' take
care of the clowns. It's all any of us can do.

Regards,

John Velez
________________________________________________
                                  jvif@spacelab.net
                     ABDUCTION INFORMATION CENTER
                             http://www.if-aic.com/
  "Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind."
________________________________________________







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   Aug > Aug 26

               Re: Research Proposal - Hypnotic Suggestibility

From: Jenny Randles <nufon@currantbun.com>
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 11:39:32 +0100
Fwd Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 09:26:32 -0400
Subject: Re: Research Proposal - Hypnotic Suggestibility


 >From: Tim D. Brigham <TBrigham@ksinc.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
 >Subject: Re: Research Proposal - Hypnotic Suggestibility
 >Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 17:48:22 -0500

 >>From: Jenny Randles <nufon@currantbun.com>
 >>To: <updates@globalserve.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Research Proposal - Hypnotic Suggestibility
 >>Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 15:24:31 +0100

 >Hi Jenny, sorry it took so long to reply. Had days off from
 >school and started a new job, so was intentionally taking a
 >break from the topic for a bit.

 ><snip>


 >Jenny, perhaps I am misunderstanding you, but the majority of
 >these traits are considered typical of the FPP. Are you saying
 >that while they share these traits that the APP (abduction prone
 >personality, for lack of a better term) is NOT the same as the
 >FPP, or are you saying that FPP simply may not be wholly a
 >measure of fantasy? If you are saying that what Fantasy
 >Proneness actually is, and indeed if it even exists, is still
 >unknown, then I agree.


Yes, I am arguing the latter - and, since FPP tends to be
discussed (by ufologists and by psychologists) on the basis that
it is a subjective, imaginary phenomenon I think it wiser to
avoid the term.

However, also there were numerous studies done into FPP and
close encounter witnesses both before and after the MIT
symposium. Mark Rodeghier led one. Even Keith Basterfield, who
was the major proponent of FPP since his 'Image Hypothesis' book
nearly 20 years ago, said at MIT that he accepted FPP was not
working.

To my understanding the problem came not in the undoubted
similarity of traits that you correctly note. Rather it came
when standard tests fir FPP were adopted, eg using things like
the MMPI to study witnesses. These showed no clear statistical
evidence that witnesses were more FPP than a non UFO related
sample. Similar results appeared in the l993 Ottawa study where
close encounter witnesses showed no greater FPP traits via such
profile testing.  As you say all tests of this type have at best
proved inconclusive and some were negative. I dont recall any
that show a significant direct link between FPP and abductions.

On the other hand links between abductees and creative
visualisation are marked. CV is a sub trait of the FPP but being
CV does not make one FPP. As such I think the links that appear
are possibly the result of the FPP and Abduction Prone
Personality sharing the key common factor (creative
visualisation).

A l995 study (reported on by the SPR in London) involved a study
by Dr Charles McCreery in Oxford into 450 people who had
experienced OOBEs. Comparison of personality profiles with non
OOBE witnesses produced evidence of a correlation between FPP
traits (that were higher in the OOBE sample than the control).
But a deeper analysis led them to suspect it was an inherent
ability that was common to both the FPP and OOBE rather than a
person who was FPP inevitably having OOBEs. I suspect the same
would be true of abductees. Indeed McCreery noted (just as I
suspect from abductee data) that it is wrong to assume the fact
that someone is FPP makes them a candidate for having OOBEs. It
is suggested by the data that they could develop FPP personality
characteristics because they grow into a lifestyle that
accommodates the sort of experience (such as OOBEs) that others
do not.

Of course, there are some reasons why this could be the case. A
few were hinted at by the work of Ken Ring comparing abductees
and NDE witnesses.  It may be that we all naturally shut off
inate creative visual abilities that children naturally possess.
Those that do this successfully grow with an objective, rational
maturity and become the skeptics or materialistic realists of
this world. Those who - via experiences that are nurtured during
childhood (be they perceived as OOBEs or abductions) grow with a
lasting value placed upon their CV abilities. Since the majority
of the world follow the former path we dictate the rules and
determine that materialism is good creative visualisation bad
(or rather bad if considered to be any type of reality because
the only true reality is materialism). In fact, if more people
werew inately FPP and our society cultivated these traits rather
than eliminated them from children we would have a very
different way of looking at things. At least there would be more
tolerance of those who considered CV fuelled experiences to be a
form of reality worth taking as seriously as we take
rationalism. Cultures which favour things such as shamanism (eg
the aboriginee) do this to a degree.

Another problem is the fact that FPP is best correlated with
hypnotic susceptibility (actually why it was initially
discovered) and that abduction data emerges to a large degree
via this route. I quote from my chapter on FPP in my book (out
here next week) on abductions -

'There must be a connection (between FPP and abductees) since
there are too many factors in common - artistic creativity,
early life recall, lifelong psychic track records, hypnotic
susceptibility, etc. But exactly what is the relationship? Since
much abduction data emerges via hypnosis and since from the
start of work on FPP it was established that these people are
the best hypnotic subjects, we have a problem. The data produced
by abductees through hypnosis is by definition biased. Those
without FPP traits would be less good at regression and less
likely to produce the detailed recall that creates the
abduction. This is another reason for ceasing the use of
hypnosis, for while it is dominant we will never be sure what
role FPP has in the abduction evidence.' ('The Complete Book Of
Aliens And Abductions', Piatkus, London, p 154)

In other words, a worrying outcome of this debate is that our
over use of hypnosis to retrieve abduction evidence leaves us
unable to establish a link just because abductees might show FPP
traits. That is an absolutely predictable outcome because
abductees often emerge via hypnosis (and non hypnotised
witnesses who might be abductees often never realise they are
abductees). But since people who can be hypnotised are provably
more likely to be FPP than those who cannot our abductee data
base is certain to be over stocked by FPP subjects irrespective
of whether this has any direct correlation with the fact that
they are abductees.


As such I advise we steer away from FPP data as such and seek a
new set of parameters - what I term the APP (Abduction Prone
Personality) which we can then cross check against others. But
we need to do this via three samples - non UFO witnesses, close
encounter witnesses who have been regressed and close encounter
witnesses who could not be regressed.

In addition, Eddie Bullard pointed out that what we might be
doing in identifying FPP trends in witnesses is finding them in
a sub set (people that are really contactees) rather than
traditional abductees. So we may need to find a way to
differentiate between these two terms. One of the most obvious
differences is that a contactee initiates the alien/human
communication and does so in a stress free environment, whereas
an abductee has no apparent choice in the experience which most
definitely is stress laden as it unfolds.

I am not aware of any APP, FPP, or other profile studies that
seek similarities or differences between abductees and
contactees (today all alien contact witnesses wrongly do get
labelled as one thing). So maybe this work is an essential first
step.

My point is not that what you plan is a bad idea. Nor that it is
unnnecessary. But only that it is a good deal more complicated
than it seems.

Best wishes,

Jenny Randles







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   Aug > Aug 26

                     Re: Socorro: The Zamora 'Insignia'

From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 08:51:50 EDT
Fwd Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 09:35:31 -0400
Subject: Re: Socorro: The Zamora 'Insignia'


 >From: Larry Robinson  S/AP/EIS Kinesiology <lrobins@indiana.edu>
 >Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 13:36:38 -0500 (EST)
 >Fwd Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 16:13:06 -0400
 >Subject: Re: Socorro: The Zamora 'Insignia'


 >Socorro: The Author Responds

 >First, I suggest that you read my web page before arguing the
 >contents. Many of your arguments were already addressed.

 >It is at:

 >http://php.indiana.edu/~lrobins/howisoco.htm

 >Addressing the comments of all who have posted:

 >1. The burner used in modern hot-air balloons was invented
 >  in 1962. The balloons were very rare in 1964, but several
 >   races had already occurred.

Still no evidence that any of this was occurring in New Mexico.
As others have pointed out, April in New Mexico is also a very
dangerous time to be ballooning, with lots of high winds.  In
fact, Zamora noted that the wind was blowing hard at the time.
What would balloonists have been doing out in such wind?

 >2. The metal triangular platform was used until 1965, when
 >   a suitable basket became available. I have photos of them,
 >   including some copied from a Time magazine article
 >   published before the sighting. Zamora's "legs" would have
 >   been the A-frame over the platform (which explains why only
 >   two legs were seen).

Strangely, this alleged balloon platform left deep impressions
in hard ground, which calculates out to a device weighing
thousands of pounds, not some lighter-than-air craft.

 >3. Newer burners are quieter and more efficient than the
 >  original ones.

 >4. A zinc-iron alloy is found on the surface of galvanized pipe.

Very commonplace stuff, easily identifiable.  Yet NASA,
according to Ray Stanford, couldn't match the alloy to any known
one.  Later they changed their story to it being silicon
dioxide.  If this was nothing by ordinary galvanized pipe on a
nonclassified International Paper hot-air balloon, why all the
cloak and dagger?

 >5. At the first sighting of the flame, the roof of the car may
 >   have hidden the envelope of the balloon, or the sunglasses
 >  may have made it match the sky.

How exactly would the sunglasses have made it match the sky?
Sounds like more handwaving to me.

 >6. NO witness can correctly estimate the size, distance, speed,
 >   or altitude of an object, unless one of these happens:

Altitude initially:  zero (on ground).  Speed initially: zero
(on ground).  Distance:  Easily determinable from ground
landmarks and maps.  Size:  Lots of comparison objects on
ground.

 >   a. The witness knows what the object is (good size estimate).

Well, among other things, Zamora saw two humanoids.  If you
assume these were actually normal-sized human adults, as you are
doing, Zamora had two extremely familiar objects to scale size
with.  There were also other objects like bushes, boulders, and
such before and after the sighting.  The ravine was shallow and
the main object was totally within the ravine, not sticking up
out of the ravine like an inflated hot-air balloon would have.
This _wasn't_ the case of some object way off in the distance
with nothing familiar near by to compare it to.

 >   b. The object comes within 20 feet of the witness.

That's total rubbish!  Where did you dream that up?  One direct
depth and size scaling mechanism, stereopsis, is operative up to
1500 feet in people with normal vision.  Size constancy of
familiar objects likewise operates up to considerable distance.
That's why a person 200 feet away doesn't look 1/10th the size
of somebody standing at your purely imaginary 20 foot limit.
They both are perceived as about same size.  And _relative size_
of objects is completely unaffected by distance.  Size constancy
and relative size are particularly relevant here, since the
sight of two human beings would instantly scale the nearby oval
object as well.

Zamora did briefly see two beings at approximately 1000 feet.
He thought maybe they looked like large children or small men.
One could question just how accurately Zamora could judge the
actual size of two people at that distance, but he wasn't likely
to be off by more than a foot in height.  They were familiar
objects and served as perfect scaling mechanism  for the ovoid
object.  Apparently this object was about three times larger in
length than they were high, because Zamora placed its long
dimension at 12 to 15 feet, or about that of a small car (which
he thought it was initially).  That's much too small for a
hot-air balloon.  Robinson tries to wave a magic wand and
finesse the issue below, but his argument leads to even greater
absurdities.

 >   c. The object passes in front of and behind known objects.

That was certainly the case with Zamora's sighting -- lots of
comparison objects very close by; object in a ravine in front of
small cliff, object below rim of ravine, etc.

 >   d. The object casts a shadow or leaves marks in a known location.

Object left marks in a known location, fixing the exact position
of the object.  Distances are _known_.

 >  e. Other measuring means are used.

 >   If the witness makes an incorrect guess of the identity of
 >   the object, all size, distance, speed, and altitude
 >   estimates are distorted by the guess.

How could he make such a mistake in the case of your two alleged
human balloonists?  It's not as if adult humans are unfamiliar
objects or range that drastically in size.  Compared to the two
beings nearby, the ovoid object was the size of a small car.
You can't get around this, though you try.

 >   Pilots and air support personnel can routinely make good
 >   estimates of the distance, speed, or altitude of airplanes.
 >   But they have one advantage the UFO witness does not have:
 >   They know the objects they are looking at are airplanes, and
 >   so have a pretty good size estimate.

Uh, remember, there were two humanoid beings there for
comparison, which according to you were human balloonists.  And
unlike airplanes miles away, Zamora was literally within
spitting distance of this object at closest approach.  The
precise position of the object was known.

 >A UFO can be the size of a bug, a building, or a planet.

Yes, but not human beings, standing close to the unknown object.
This is a completely different situation than the straw-man
debunking scenario you are trying to create.

 >Attempts to estimate
 >   distance, speed, and altitude fail when the unknown object
 >  is assumed to be the size of an airplane.

What does this have to do with Zamora's close-quartrers sighting
with all sorts of comparison objects about?

 >   It is amazing that UFOlogists habitually ignore these facts.

What I see is Larry Robinson ignoring the particulars of the
Zamora sighting: object not moving on ground, close range
sighting, many comparison objects, known distances.

 >   They routinely take an estimate of size, distance, speed, or
 >   altitude given by a witness to be an ironclad fact, instead
 >   of a very rough guess based on the sizes of known vehicles.
 >   Even trained observers cannot find out this information
 >   without the aids listed above. Many guesses are off by
 >   factors of 100, and quite a few are off by factors of
 >   100,000 to 1,000,000. Many air traffic controllers made this
 >   last mistake before the invention of RADAR, radioing landing
 >   instructions to bright planets (especially Venus) that were
 >   suddenly uncovered by clouds.

Typical skeptical blather that is irrelevant to the particulars
of the Zamorra case at very close range, lots of reference
objects, etc.  This is just Robinson trying to throw up a smoke
screen to divert attention from the inadequacies of his theory.

 >7. Using USGS maps of the area, I determined that Zamora
 >   underestimated the distance to the landing site by a factor of 3.

What particular sighting position are you referring to?  I
assume the distant one.  Even if Zamorra had the _absolute_
distance wrong by a factor of 3, it has no effect on the
RELATIVE size of objects, which is unchanged with distance.  If
the object was about 3 times larger than the people, the actual
distance doesn't matter.

 > Scaling up the distance also scales up the men and the
 > balloon envelope to normal size.

First of all, the actual absolute distance has nothing to do
with with the perceived relative sizes involved, a point you
obviously don't grasp.

Nonetheless, let's play along and follow your strange line of
reasoning to its logical conclusion.  Zamora placed the ovoid
object as car size, 12 to 15 feet in its greatest dimension.
Well, that alone is death to a hot-air balloon theory.  Larry
Robinson has to scale that up by a factor of three if the
balloon theory has any chance, so he magically rescales
everything.

Unfortunately, he also has to scale up the crew by the same
factor of 3.  Since Zamora judged them to be the size of boys or
small men, which places them in the 4 to 5 foot range, rescaling
them produces men 12 to 15 feet tall!!!

Oops!!  Since when are people 12 to 15 feet tall "normal-size?"

 >8. Likewise, if Zamora ran as he said he did, he broke the world
 >   record for sprinting. Zamora's time-sense seems to be off.

Huh?  Zamora said that when he heard the roar, he ran maybe 25
feet away from the object, glanced over his shoulder to see it
rise to his level, a period of time he estimated to be 6
seconds.  Then he ran maybe another 25 feet to the place where
he ducked down.

Well let's see.  25 feet in 6 seconds is 100 yards in 72
seconds!  Even if this was off by a factor of 4 (he ran twice as
far in half the time), that's still 100 yards in 18 seconds.
Last I heard, that was hardly "the world record for sprinting."
I think even an out-of-shape, middle-aged traffic cop running up
hill could manage that, especially juiced on adrenaline.

Where is Robinson going with this?  Like a true pelicanist
trying to salvage the unsalvagable, Robinson is trying to claim
ALL of Zamora's perceptions were way, way off.  If Zamora's time
sense was off, then his perception of relative size was as well,
even though the two have nothing to do with one another.  Please
also note when these estimates were made.  One is with Zamora
scared out of his wits and the other was when he was calmly
assessing the situation from a distance.

 >9. Likewise, the other drivers' estimates were no better without
 >   any of the above factors to help them.

Zamora had those factors:  familiar landmarks and objects to
scale by; known distances, stationary object, etc.  Why does
Larry Robinson persist with this obvious nonsense that Zamora
lacked all these things?

 >10. Zamora could not identify the balloon because he never heard
 >    of a noisy balloon. Neither had the Air Force officers (the
 >    original project was for the Navy).

A rose is a rose is a rose.  And a balloon is a balloon is a
balloon.  Even Zamora compared it to a balloon in shape when he
radioed in after the object left, even though he didn't think it
was a balloon.   Problem is, it was obviously much too small to
be a human-carrying balloon and also moving much too fast.  And
since when are hot air balloons ovoid, sideways ovoid at that?


The Air Force people with Project Blue Book had a debunking
mandate.  They had lots of time to ponder the whole thing for
years afterwards (I'm sure they were very aware of hot-air
balloons which had been around in one form or another for 200
years -- they were not as mysterious as Larry Robinson tries to
make them sound), yet could never come up with a decent
explanation.  The best they could do was hoax.

 >11. The logo was for purposes of sport balloon racing, not
 >    advertizing. Most balloons in such sports still carry a
 >    symbolic ID inside a circle. They are used to identify the
 >    balloons for scoring purposes, like numbers on race cars and
 >    football jerseys.

Oddly, even without his glasses and from a distance of 100 to
150 feet, Zamora could clearly make out the symbol, but not,
according to Larry Robinson, the much larger crew, propane tank,
metal platform, and balloon rigging suspended underneath.  Even
after he put his glasses back on, he still, mysteriously, could
not make any of these out.

Zamora obviously had very peculiar vision.  The blurrier it got,
the easier it was to make out the smaller stuff and the harder
it was to make out the bigger stuff.  Unfortunately, that is the
exact opposite of the way optics really work.

 >12. The triangular platform  was made of a pipe or welded metal
 >    frame, with a mesh metal grid (similar to those found on fire
 >    escapes) on top. It could very well have made the marks.

Really?  Where did a balloon get the necessary weight?  Note how
Robinson tries to solve this problem below -- the balloon
slammed into the ground on landing.  What -- no casualties?

13. The bottom of the object (if it was indeed a balloon) was
      never seen clearly by Zamora. First it was hidden by terrain
      (from both viewpoints), then he lost his glasses.

Then how did he see the two guys standing on the ground at a
distance?  How about the same two guys standing on a platform as
the balloon rose up? He would have had a clear view of them and
the platform, and also when the object took off cross country
just clearing the dynamite shack (what would have just cleared
the dynamite shack?  -- perhaps the men on the platform?).

Remember, he could see the symbol, maybe 2-1/2 feet high clear
enough to draw it, but, according to you, he couldn't make out
anything else that was much larger.  This is typical absurdist
skeptical argumentation.  We are treated to a disappearing crew
and equipment act.

 >14. The wind and the rough terrain should cause a rough landing.
 >    This caused the deep marks, and probably the burnt brush.
 >    The platform might even have turned over.

More skeptical grasping at straws.  If the platform had come
down that hard to produce deep depressions, the balloonists
would likely have been killed.  Zamora would have seen bodies
lying on the ground and a deflated balloon (how else could the
balloon come down hard?).

A platform turned over would have left identifying marks and
again suggests serious injury to the balloonists. The balloon
and platform also would likely have been dragged across the
ground even in light winds, leaving all sorts of drag marks.
And Zamorra didn't notice anything burning on the ground, such
as the bush, until AFTER the object left.

 >15. The takeoff happens in these stages (I have seen this many
 >   times):

 >    a. The envelope is inflated on the ground (from the account,
 >       it never deflated; it just lost lift).

It would have had to lose a whole lot of lift to go slamming
into the ground like you hypothesize, implying that it was at
least partially deflated.

But like typical pelicanist magical thinking, it slams into the
ground to make the depressions, tips over to burn the ground,
yet the crew is uninjured and the balloon remains fully inflated
so that they can rapidly escape into the air from the
approaching Zamora.

Furthermore, fully inflated, a large hot-air balloon sticks up
like a sore thumb above the landscape and is impossible to
confuse with a car lying on the ground.  It's like saying Zamora
couldn't tell the difference between something the size of a
house and something the size of car with two people standing
there to easily scale everything.

 >   b. The burner is fired SIDEWAYS to lift the envelope. As the
 >      envelope lifts, the burner is angled up (the initial
 >      hovering). This takes 10 to 20 seconds.

Wait a second!  If the balloon is still fully inflated, it's
directly overhead.  Why would the burner be turned sideways?
Wouldn't it be turned sideways only if it was deflated and lying
on the ground?

 >    c. Another blast of the burner is used to lift the craft
 >       off of the ground (the horizontal motion).

 >16. The object did NOT disappear in the distance, but went
 >    behind terrain.

Not exactly.  Zamora said that once airborne, it took off at
high speed.  "Object was travelling very fast.  It seemed to
rise up, and take off imediately across country.  I ran back to
my car and as I ran back I kept an eye on the object.  I picked
up my glasses, got into the car, and radioed to Nep Lopez, radio
operator...   As I was calling Nep, I could still se the object.
The object seemed to lift up slowly, and to "get small" in the
distance very fast.  It seemed to just clear  Box Canyon or Six
Mile Canyon mountain.  It disappeared as it went over the
mountains.  It had no flame whatsoever as it was travelling over
the ground, and made no smoke or noise."

So the object WAS receding rapidly in the distance and then disappeared
behind MOUNTAINS several miles distant.

Now further, all this took place in less than two minutes.  He
had it in sight nearly the entire time.   Now I don't know
exactly what mountains it disappeared behind, but my topo map
shows Box Canyon about 4 or 5 miles distant, meaning the object
covered at least 4 miles in two minutes, or was travelling over
100 mph.

Uh, isn't that a little fast for a "hot air balloon?"  The wind
was blowing strong, but was there a hurricane blowing?  And do
you think any sane hot air balloonists would have risked heading
for mountains in high winds?

Also note that Zamora never saw any further evidence of flame.
A hot-air balloon would have to be continually "primed" with
fresh infusions of heated air to keep it airborne, and also if
was to rise much higher in the air to clear the mountains.

 >17. The object stayed low enough on takeoff that Zamora probably
 >    never saw the (edge-on) platform

Wasn't the object down in a ravine with Zamora on higher ground?
If "the object stayed low enough on takeoff" how exactly did it
rise out of the ravine so that the balloon plus "platform" and
crew could take off cross country?  How could Zamora see it just
clear the dynamite shack yet again fail to see the
crew/platform/equipment suspended below?

 >-- if only he hadn't lost his glasses.

HAHAHA!  Odd how his vision was good enough even without his
glasses to make out the symbol on the side only 2 to 2-1/2 feet
high, but not good enough to make out the much larger platform,
crew, and necessary hot-air balloon equipment.

 >18. Three of the marks coincide almost exactly with the
 >    dimensions of the platforms. The fourth could have been
 >    from an early strike, from the platform turning over,
 >    from the mouth ring of the envelope, or from accessory
 >    equipment.

 >19. Zamora stated that "the wind was at my back" during the
 >   sighting from the location where he parked.

Was it blowing over 100 mph?  That's what it would have taken
for the object to disappear that fast.  Even if this estimate of
speed was off by a factor of 4, the winds would have been
dangerously fast for hot air ballooning.  No balloonist in his
right mind would have taken off again.  People are killed by
this, as happened a few months ago to some hot-air balloonists
in California when unexpected winds came up.  Any winds over 15
to 20 mph are considered much too dangerous for hot-air
ballooning.

 >    Other accounts (by investigators) of wind direction were probably
 >    reversed by the false assumption (shared by many UFOlogists)
 >    that a south wind blows toward the south (a south wind is
 >   defined as coming from the south). Even Hynek has this
 >    reversed, not just here but in other sightings.

Doesn't really matter.  The winds would have had to be hurricane
force to account for the rapid disappearance.  Furthermore, the
object took off more to the west or WSW, according to the AF
site map, against normal prevailing winds.  Whether the wind was
flowing from the south or north, the object would have been
flying against a crosswind.  Balloons can't do that.

 >20. If the wind speed had been brisk, the chase car might have
 >    been left behind (as they also are where roads are sparse).
 >    Also (unless you knew what you were looking for) would you
 >    recognize a chase car or grasp its significance? The first
 >    time I saw one, I had no idea what it was for. The trailer
 >    looked like it had a small airboat (for swamps) on it.

Yep, very "brisk" -- more hurricane force winds seem called for
here if the balloon was going to leave the chase car behind.
These balloonists must have had a death wish.

And what's this about the object being far from the roads so the
chase car couldn't follow?  This whole incident happened only a
few hundred yards from a major highway.

 >21. The first Vulcoon had a thirty foot (diameter) envelope, and
 >    a parachute-style harness to hold one man. Later models were
 >    bigger (40, 50, and 65 ft) and used platforms.

Yep, as I calculated here the other day, 30 feet is the bare
minimum size for such a balloon, i.e., if the two balloonists
were midgets and their equipment and balloon weighed next to
nothing.  Of course, I didn't realize then that I should have
blown the balloonists up in size by a factor of 3 so that the
object could also be inflated to hot-air balloon-size instead of
car-size.  So we now have 12-15 foot humans (the rescaled humans
now being "normal size" according to Robinson) and also
rescaling to at least a metric ton each.  Unfortunately, instead
of a rescaled balloon maybe 40 feet across, we now need a much
bigger hot-air balloon over 100 feet across to lift our
"normal-sized," metric ton giants.  Throughout all this, Zamora
at close range is completely unable to make out the huge balloon
bag or the human giants as the balloon lifts because he isn't
wearing his glasses.  However, he is able to make out the much
smaller "logo" on the side and draw a picture of it.

Maybe this all makes perfect sense to Larry Robinson, but it
leaves the rest of us a bit confused.  The more Larry Robinson
tries to patch up his leaky hot-air balloon theory, the more
absurd it becomes.

 >22. The roar is much louder if you are in a cone where you can
 >    hear the echo from inside the envelope. In the modern
 >    balloon, the basket removes most of this, but the open mesh
 >    platform would not.

 >23. I have the 1966 article. The 65 ft. balloon had an enclosed
 >    triangular gondola painted orange. The envelope of this
 >    balloon had orange and white stripes. It is NOT the article
 >    I am looking for.

Obviously not.  No matter what size hot-air balloon you
hypothesize, it would have stuck well above the edge of the
small ravine, which was fairly shallow, and been much too large
to have been confused with something car-size and totally WITHIN
the confines of the ravine and low to the ground, like a crashed
car (Zamora's initial impression).   Remember, when the object
had lifted no more than 20-25 feet to Zamora's level, it was
able to take off cross country and clear an 8 foot dynamite
shack by several feet.

Here are some more points to ponder.  Why would a hot-air
balloon be painted all white?  That would make it extremely
difficult to track from the ground by a chase car (could easily
be lost from sight against the clouds, e.g.).  Every hot air
balloon I've ever seen has had a colorful envelope.  Those
orange and white stripes were not just there for style.

Furthermore, has anybody EVER seen a hot air balloon that was
ovoid with the long axis parallel to the ground, or sideways?
That's what Zamora described.

 >24. Unfortunately, I was not yet interested in UFOs when I read
 >    the article by the balloonists. I found out about the
 >    Socorro case later, after the magazine had been returned. I
 >    do have a drawing I had made of the balloon at the time I
 >    read the article (I had wanted to make a flying model of it
 >    at the time). It has the International Paper logo on it.

Yes, the logo.  The small logo that Zamora could clearly see
even without glasses, yet somehow completely miss the crew and
platform suspended underneath.  Above all, pelicanism demands
magical thinking.

Leon Davidson, a Los Alamos chemist and the guy who initially
got his hands on Blue Book Special Report #14, had his own
theory about the object and logo.  It was a secret government
craft operated by the CIA.  If you turn the "C" sideways, stick
the "I" in the center of the "A", and place the "IA" combo
underneath the sideways "C", you have a stylish CIA logo.
Davidson even went so far as to suggest that, as an inside
agency joke, it also stood for former CIA director Allen Dulles'
initials:  D opened up and turned sideways with the A sandwiched
inbetween.  Hey, it's possible, isn't it?

Here's my theory.  Many real estate companies sport logos
similar to what Zamora described, a pitched home roof being the
"arrow" shape in Zamora's drawing.  (One in the San Francisco
yellow pages even has an arch over the top).  So this was a
sighting of two small real estate agents in a white Chevy
looking at the mayor's property.  The mayor was considering
placing a fried chicken wings fast-food place there, so the real
estate agents pounded some test holes in the ground to test for
soil compactness (accounts for indentations in ground), then
burned a clearing with gasoline at the proposed fried chicken
wings site (burned bush, scorched rock).

That's a really dumb theory, but just as consistent with various
details as the equally dumb hot-air-balloon theory.  The
proportions and shape better fit the sighting (Zamora initially
thought it was a white car), the thumping noise Zamora heard
which he thought sounded like doors being closed was obviously
the agents getting in the car and slamming the doors.  There's
no missing gondola or platform or crew to account for, as in
Robinson's hot-air balloon theory. The roaring noise and dust
was the Chevy ripping out of there (they were burning without a
license -- didn't want to deal with the cops).  The logo is
equally well accounted for.

As long as you leave out a lot of other pertinent details, the
Chevy/real-estate-agent  theory works just fine.  And as any
good debunker can tell you, any mundane theory, no matter how
ridiculous, is still more plausible than believing in space
aliens.

A good pelicanist can then apply more magical thinking to
account for the things that don't work.  Having been bamboozled
by some real estate agents, the embarrassed traffic cop makes up
a cover story.  He quickly sweeps away the tire tracks before
back-up arrives and makes up the story about the mysterious
flying object, etc., etc.

 >    Other items found in that spiral notebook date the contents
 >    to a period encompassing February 1965 to January 1967. I
 >   first learned of the Socorro case in March 1967.

In the end, all this theory amounts to is your alleged vague
memory of an alleged magazine article.  Even if you ever find
the alleged article about the alleged IP hot-air-balloon, you've
got a mess of other very serious problems with your theory that
need to be PROPERLY addressed.   As is, it is indeed a hot-air
balloon theory, since it consists mostly of a lot of hot air.






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Aug > Aug 26

                     Re: Kenneth Arnold's 'Flying Discs'

From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 08:58:55 EDT
Fwd Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 09:38:24 -0400
Subject: Re: Kenneth Arnold's 'Flying Discs'


 >From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 00:20:25 -0400
 >Fwd Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 17:19:20 -0400
 >Subject: Re: Kenneth Arnold's 'Flying Discs'


 >If there is one thing I have learned abou ufology it is that you
 >get to study so many seemingly non-related issues....
 >_In_ the Zamorra case we are learning more than we ever wanted
 >to know about balloons, and here it is pelicans uber alles!

 >My only conclusion after reviewing this pelican information is
 >that pelicans are even less likely than before to be the
 >explanation.


I was hiking last week in Point Reyes, north of San Francisco,
on the Pacific Ocean.  There are lots of California brown
pelicans flying up and down the coast.  These aren't the same as
those pesky Great White Pelicans that the pelicanist rhapsodize
about for the Arnold sighting.  But since we are learning more
than we ever wanted to know about pelicans, I throw in some of
my observations.

The largest of these pelicans appeared to measure maybe 5 or 6
feet, wing-tip to wing- tip, with a body maybe 2 feet long.
Despite flying down at sea level, these birds were flapping
wings almost continuously, except for an occasional brief glide
now and then.  What about pelicans thousands of feet up, like
what would be needed for the Arnold sighting?  Well the air is
less dense up there, the GWP's are larger, and near-continuous
wing beating would seem to be essential to maintain altitude and
speed.  If Arnold was close enough to discern some shape, this
wing-beating should have been readily apparent.

I made estimates of speed by timing their flight from several
hundred north of me until they flew several hundred feet south
of my position. Even when I used conservative figures for
distance, I never got speeds faster than 30 mph.  Most of the
time the speeds were in the 15 to 25 mph range.  These estimates
are admittedly rough and don't necessarily apply to GWP's, of
course.

There was certainly no common denominator as to how the pelicans
travelled.  Some were loners.  Others clearly flew in pairs.
They flew near one another, and when one turned and paused to
fly into the wind and "hover" over the ocean, so did the other.

I saw two larger formation flights.  One was a diamond shape of
four birds.  Another was a lopsided V-shape of 6 birds, with a
lone bird on one side of the V and 4 others on the other side
behind the leader.  In these geometric formations, the birds
were in extremely close quarters, flying literally wing-tip to
wing-tip, as they must for true formation flying.

Arnold, however, saw 9 objects in single file in echelon
formation strung out over about 10+ degrees.  If one assumes
that the "birds" were at least two miles away so that Arnold
couldn't clearly discern any flapping or other clear signs of
"pelicaness," like beaks,  then 10+ degrees translates into the
birds being separated from each other by at least 200+ feet.
That is NOT true formation flying.

I did sometimes see groups of 3 to 5 pelicans flying in very
loose single file, meaning one bird might _seem_ to be following
soon after the other and roughly separated anywhere from 50 to
200 feet.  But there was nothing particularly coordinated about
their flight nor was this step-like echelon flying.  The spacing
was completely irregular, the flapping was not in sync, nor did
a trailing bird necessarily turn in a predictable way when the
one in front did.  It was more like a group of otherwise lone
birds simply following coastline together, but not one another.

It was late in the afternoon, the sun was getting low, so I also
tried to observe the pelicans when their angle to the sun was
low on the chance that I might catch some of that bird sheen off
those oily feathers that we hear so much about.  Well, I never
saw it, but again these were brown pelicans and less reflective.
Off in the distance, maybe a mile up the coast, they looked like
nothing more than dark dots and were hard to see.

So much for my pelican-watching.

David Rudiak





   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Aug > Aug 26

                      Re: 'New?' FBI memo about Roswell

From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 09:14:45 EDT
Fwd Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 09:40:42 -0400
Subject: Re: 'New?' FBI memo about Roswell


 >Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 14:37:45 +0100
 >From: Neil Morris <Neil@adm1.ph.man.ac.uk>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
 >Subject: Re: 'New?' FBI memo about Roswell


 >>From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
 >>Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 16:11:50 EDT
 >>Subject: Re: 'New?' FBI memo about Roswell
 >>To: updates@globalserve.net

 >>>Date: Sun, 22 Aug 1999 10:03:35 -0700
 >>>To: updates@globalserve.net
 >>>From: Neil Morris <neil@adm1.ph.man.ac.uk>
 >>>Subject: Re: 'New?' FBI memo about Roswell

 >>>FWIW as I read it, it's _not_ the cover story but a strong hint
 >>>as to what _actually_ happend that evening.

  <snip>

 >>And let us not forget that Star-Telegram photographer J. Bond
 >>Johnson said that General Ramey told him that it was a weather
 >>balloon when Johnson arrived to take the photographs earlier in
 >>the day. Johnson told me, "I took two pictures [which we now
 >>know is probably six] and then they [Ramey] said... 'Oh, we've
 >>found out what it is and you know, it's a weather balloon and so
 >>forth.'"

 >>In a second interview, Johnson said, "I posed General Ramey with
 >>this debris. At that time I was briefed on the idea that it was
 >>not a flying disk as first reported but, in fact, was a weather
 >>balloon that had crashed."

 >>So, the story of the weather balloon was in place before any
 >>reporters arrived in General Ramey's office.



 >Kevin and list,

 >I do not intend to jump into the debate over the various "taped"
 >interviews and what was said and not said with JBJ over the
 >years, except to say that in the last few months an independant
 >source has confirmed the main part of JBJ's recollections as
 >they stand "today", and expanded intrestingly on what we now
 >know of the events at the Star-Telegram and FWAAF at that time.

 >JBJ would be the first to admit his memories of the photo
 >session are fragmentory and as he put's it "in soundbites", a
 >good description I think of old memories, unless your blessed
 >(or cursed) with the photographic form, try recalling your own
 >childhood memories and then attempt to drag out exact detail as
 >questioning a witness, what colour was x?, what did y
 >say..exactly?. I tried this little exercise on myself, it opened
 >my eyes a little to the hurdles faced by witnesses when asked to
 >recall events "in detail" from 50+ years ago, "soundbites" is a
 >good description indeed.

 >What Ramey did or did not say at the time we can NEVER be sure,
 >nobody taped _that_ conversation and the only surviving person
 >who was there will today readily admit he does not recall what
 >Ramey said exactly word for word, only the "impression" he gave.

What a very interesting dodge. Johnson had very coherent
recollections of what transpired in General Ramey's office. He
offered those, with no prompting from me, suggesting that he was
told, upon arrival, that the debris was from a weather balloon.
He returned to the office and wrote an article for the newspaper
which said much the same thing. In other words, the accounts
from the time confirm this version of the events. Yes, Johnson
said on tape, repeatedly that he wrote the July 9, 1947 article
which he now denies that he wrote.

Yes, there are problems with human memory, especially when the
events are so far in the past. Yes, memories evolve and change
as we attempt to "access" them. However, the problem here is not
one of small, expected changes but one that is at the core of
the entire story. That is, did General Ramey tell Johnson that
it was a weather balloon. The answer, according to Johnson,
originally, was "Yes." Now, it's "No."

And no one is suggesting that Johnson recall the exact words or
anything else. Just give us a feeling for what happened. That is
what he did in the original tapes and is what he is doing now.
Too bad that these impressions are contradictory.

That is the problem here, and not an attempt to recreate,
exactly, what was said by whom at the time. Johnson has
radically altered his story to the point where he is now
claiming that he unwrapped the debris. Get real.

Oh, and the cap on the radiator is not Marcel's, it's Ramey's.
Take a look at it again and you'll see a general's star and not
a major's oak leaf.

 >What we DO have, and dismissed totally by so many people (why?)
 >are those photographs, of unchallenged provenance and hard
 >evidence of instants captured in time of part of one of the
most >contentious pieces of recent US history.

The photographs have not been ignored. They have been examined
from the moment they were first identified. They show a weather
balloon and rawin target.

KRandle





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   Aug > Aug 27

                              Re: UFO Ridicule

From: Bill Weber <koran@cchat.com>
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 10:02:14 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1999 05:39:23 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO Ridicule


Hi, Jenny,

You say,

 >Firstly, I do not think most UK skeptics have adopted an
 >anti-ETH position because of any sinister reason. Motives
 >possibly at work tend to operate unconsciously and go
 >unrecognised by all sides here. Certainly there will be
 >complicating factors because we are all human beings and we will
 >behave in unpredictable ways not like machines.

Then you state,

 >But I am equally certain that the real bottom line is the
 >evidence. Those of us who are not overt ETH supporters have
 >indeed reached that stance through the evidence and its
 >blatantly obvious conflicting nature.

Really?  I don't get it.  After weeks of debate in which the
opponents clearly demonstrate a better knowledge of both
pelicans _and_ hot air balloons than do the proponents, and also
clearly show how neither explanation fit the facts of the cases
they purport to explain, you still think this kind of skepticism
is based on evidence?

With that kind of reasoning, who needs evidence?

With that rationale, these witnesses obviously can't
perceive the difference between a pelican and a passing freight
train, and neither can any other witness.

Anything described as "big" is an elephant, and anything with
lights is an airplane.

And exactly what is a "not overt ETH supporter?"  How would they
view evidence differently than a "not overt PSH supporter," for
instance?

Does a "not overt ETH supporter" believe in ETH in spite of lack
of evidence?

Do you believe there is no evidence to support ETH?

I'm confused. <G>

Best,

Bill






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   Aug > Aug 27

                  Re: Abductions: A Funny Thing Happened...

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 12:37:50 EDT
Fwd Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1999 05:46:11 -0400
Subject: Re: Abductions: A Funny Thing Happened...


 >Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 21:10:19 -0500
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
 >From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
 >Subject: Re: Abductions: A Funny Thing Happened...

 >>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >>Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 21:53:45 EDT
 >>Subject: Re: Abductions: A Funny Thing Happened...
 >>To: updates@globalserve.net

 >>Glad you guys made it through the sturm undt drang down
 >>that-a-way. Wouldn't want youse to suffer the indignity of being
 >>carried away by a lot of fast-blowing hot-air. Even the one from
 >>that hurricain. No, not the one the authorities came to blame,
 >>for sumthin' that he never done. Like John Ford, put in a prison
 >>cell but one, time he coulda been, the champeen of the Klass..

 >>Don't rhyme, but then I aint no Lehmburg. Even when sober.


 >Quoting again:

 >"I started out on burgundy, but soon hit the harder stuff My
 >friends said they'd stick behind me when the going got rough But
 >the joke was on me -- there was nobody there to bluff I think
 >I'm going back to New York City -- I do believe I've had
 >enough."

 >And remember: "The cops don't need you, boy, and man they expect
 >the same."

If anyone out there is a Dylan freak like me, then they are
allowed to believe, not believe, Klass, not Klass, make or make
up swamp gas, the sour effluvium of human gas, not bathe, bathe,
kill, go postal, snort, keep women as slaves (or men, depending
on one's tastes) keep slaves in general, no matter the gender,
or just about do or say anything they wish.  And Gesundt, the
world's oldest living Dylan freak, will allow it.  For a time.
Depending on the state of his liver.  And when the moon is in
it's waxing gibbous phase.

Te absolvo.

Just this once.

Gesundt -
" ...  and it's a wonder that you still know how to breathe!"
"Oh how I wish that just this once, you could stand inside
  my shoes,
Then you'd know what a drag it is to be you."






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                              Re: UFO Ridicule

From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net>
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 12:54:39 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1999 05:52:46 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO Ridicule


 >From: Jenny Randles <nufon@currantbun.com>
 >To: <updates@globalserve.net>
 >Subject: Re: UFO Ridicule
 >Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 12:16:19 +0100

 >I have been following this debate with interest, and I think
 >valid points are being made on all sides.

I trust I'm not the only one to applaud Jenny for her honesty,
her fairness, and her thoroughness in tackling this
much-disputed question. I learned a lot from what she wrote.

Greg Sandow





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   Aug > Aug 27

                     Re: Socorro: The Zamora 'Insignia'

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 13:44:53 EDT
Fwd Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1999 05:56:43 -0400
Subject: Re: Socorro: The Zamora 'Insignia'


 >Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 20:13:50 -0500
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
 >From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
 >Subject: Re: Socorro: The Zamora 'Insignia'

 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
 >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Socorro: The Zamora 'Insignia'
 >>Date: Tue, 24 Aug 99 19:55:33 PDT

 >>>Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 12:46:24 -0400
 >>>From: Andy Roberts <Brigantia@compuserve.com>
 >>>Subject: Re: Socorro: The Zamora 'Insignia'
 >>>To: UFO Updates <updates@globalserve.net>

 >>>>Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 03:45:17 -0400
 >>>>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >>>>Subject: Re: Socorro: The Zamora 'Insignia'
 >>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>

 ><Great, gigantic, huge snip>


 > Hi, All

 >If Errol would only pay five cents a word or if I didn't have to
 >pick up my kid from school, I'd explain all this stuff about a
 >witness' testimony and the unidentified nature of the perceived
 >phenomenon straightaway.

I dunno why you bother with Docca Kanappy when Gesundt's
Publishing pays in Gripple.  And then you won't hafta pick the
kids up from school.  You could let 'em stay home and groove
out on fresh wine.

 >But he ain't and I do.
 >
 >Suffice it to say this: an oral description of an event ain't
 >the event itself, although Dave Rudiak will beg to differ when
 >it suits his purposes.
 >
 >UFO insignias are relatively rare; if Zamorra's coincidentally
 >resembles an insignia that can be shown to have existed at the
 >time, then that avenue deserves to be pursued to its ultimate
 >conclusion.
 >
 >As does the question, if Zamorra was dead on, where did his
 >spaceship with an insignia _go_? Was it a one off event, or
 >should we expect to see the same insignia reported repeatedly
 >over space and time during the ensuing years? Or if not, why
 >not?

Well, the pressure's down. The ship aint here. It gone north for
a while.  They say that vanity got the best of it.  But it sure
left here in style.

 >Did the aliens, fearful that their insignia would give them away
 >-- now that it had been revealed in the UFO literature -- order
 >a fleet-wide white-over of same? ("Now they won't be able to
 >recognize us!") Or was it at about this point that the aliens
 >decided it would be better to develop that selective
 >invisibility program (per Budd Hopkins) that they'd been working
 >on all along? ("Damn! I don't know why we didn't think of that
 >to begin with!")

To attempt to assign alien reasoning with human reasoning is in
itself, insane.  On the assumtion that (just for the hell of it)
alien life forms have made it here for whatever reason(s), then
how the hell can anyone use human logic and reason to cypher it
all out?

We spend time and money (which in my book is the same) on
listening for alien life out there which _MUST_ be out there.
But just try to say that maybe, just maybe, they are not all out
there, but some of them actually made it here, and you are
treated in the same manner Dennis the Menace would by Mr. Wilson
as Mr. Wilson's house burns down because little Dennis lit a
match in the living room.

If you were a dolphin or a lizard laying down a turd pattern in
the sand and that Australian Croc Hunter comes along and probes
your whatsis to determine your sex, would you be able to assign
your lizard logic or dolphin juice to deduce why this funny
looking boob was poking your arse?  Huh?

Dunno why I am the only one seeing thru the vail of mockery in
that series of sentences.  However, you are a Dylan person. Uh,
but my patience is waning, like the phase of the moon. Soon, you
shall be relegated back into the relm of Verlain and Rimbaud.

 >And enlarge the interiors at the same time, the examination
 >rooms having grown rather cramped by now? ("Hey, the old FD [for
 >Flying Disc] 107 ain't what it used to be!" In Telepathic Speak,
 >of course.) I mean, if you're going to retrofit anyway...why not
 >go whole hog? (Insert the vastly improved, insignialess FD-127
 >at this stage.)

Maybe this one was a shape changer from Mongo. I mean, it _is_
possible that it was a small craft used on occasions where cops
must be confused into thinking the thingy may be a baloon.

Remember "F Troop?"  _it is balooon!_  Maybe the Fugawees
misinterpreted a baloon for an sideways eggshaped spaceship. Or
maybe they knew it was a sideways placed eggshaped space ship
from Mongo but told everyone it was a baloon blown sideways by
the wind, which was not an idiot wind, but a wind created by
hard driving (but lost) pelicans with huge horny beak thingies
and feathers shining in the sun.  Maybe.

Hmmm.  Hey, you never know!

 >My personal feeling, however, is that --

 >Damn, gotta get my kid before the aliens do!

 >Dennis

Yeah, better go pick up the kids. I'll send some Gripple
so you can spend more time here with us.






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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Aug > Aug 27

                                     Re:

From: neil morris <neil@adm1.ph.man.ac.uk>
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 21:45:03 -0700
Fwd Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1999 06:06:59 -0400
Subject: Re:


 >From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
 >Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 09:14:45 EDT
 >Subject: Re: 'New?' FBI memo about Roswell
 >To: updates@globalserve.net

 >>Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 14:37:45 +0100
 >>From: Neil Morris <Neil@adm1.ph.man.ac.uk>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
 >>Subject: Re: 'New?' FBI memo about Roswell


Kevin and list,

 >>I do not intend to jump into the debate over the various "taped"
 >>interviews and what was said and not said with JBJ over the
 >>years, except to say that in the last few months an independant
 >>source has confirmed the main part of JBJ's recollections as
 >>they stand "today", and expanded intrestingly on what we now
 >>know of the events at the Star-Telegram and FWAAF at that time.

 >>JBJ would be the first to admit his memories of the photo
 >>session are fragmentory and as he put's it "in soundbites", a
 >>good description I think of old memories, unless your blessed
 >>(or cursed) with the photographic form, try recalling your own
 >>childhood memories and then attempt to drag out exact detail as
 >>questioning a witness, what colour was x?, what did y
 >>say..exactly?. I tried this little exercise on myself, it opened
 >>my eyes a little to the hurdles faced by witnesses when asked to
 >>recall events "in detail" from 50+ years ago, "soundbites" is a
 >>good description indeed.

 >>What Ramey did or did not say at the time we can NEVER be sure,
 >>nobody taped _that_ conversation and the only surviving person
 >>who was there will today readily admit he does not recall what
 >>Ramey said exactly word for word, only the "impression" he gave.

 >What a very interesting dodge. Johnson had very coherent
 >recollections of what transpired in General Ramey's office. He
 >offered those, with no prompting from me, suggesting that he was
 >told, upon arrival, that the debris was from a weather balloon.

I can only repeat as before, though we havn't got confirmation
of the events within Ramey's office at the time of the
photo-shoot, we do now have independant confirmation of the rest
of JDB's "current" recollections of events that day/night at the
ST/FWAAF and other associated events.

And no I'm not going to outline them at this time.

 >He returned to the office and wrote an article for the newspaper
 >which said much the same thing. In other words, the accounts
 >from the time confirm this version of the events. Yes, Johnson
 >said on tape, repeatedly that he wrote the July 9, 1947 article
 >which he now denies that he wrote.

_All_ that night's editions of the ST don't support this...

And

Which article?, there were 3 seperate "versions" printed in the
Star-Telegram that night from the 9/10pm "Bulldog" edition
through to the late edition in the early hours. JBJ maintains he
left directly after printing his pics!, his usual habit was to
make his colledge dorm by 6pm for dinner, he was late. The 3 ST
stories are _all_ different in content, mainly spun arround the
AP wire stories, except for one edition which does have some
"interesting" content not carried by any wireservice. The
"Bulldog" would have been the ONLY edition JBJ _could_ have
written copy for, it's content is _pure_ AP story.

 >Yes, there are problems with human memory, especially when the
 >events are so far in the past. Yes, memories evolve and change
 >as we attempt to "access" them. However, the problem here is not
 >one of small, expected changes but one that is at the core of
 >the entire story. That is, did General Ramey tell Johnson that
 >it was a weather balloon. The answer, according to Johnson,
 >originally, was "Yes." Now, it's "No."

 >And no one is suggesting that Johnson recall the exact words or
 >anything else. Just give us a feeling for what happened. That is
 >what he did in the original tapes and is what he is doing now.
 >Too bad that these impressions are contradictory.

 >That is the problem here, and not an attempt to recreate,
 >exactly, what was said by whom at the time. Johnson has
 >radically altered his story to the point where he is now
 >claiming that he unwrapped the debris. Get real.

Wether JBJ did or did not unwrap, handle or pose the debris,
talk or not talk to Ramey, Dubose or even Marcel is irrelevent
actually, when faced with the amount of data available in the
photographs he took.

 >Oh, and the cap on the radiator is not Marcel's, it's Ramey's.
 >Take a look at it again and you'll see a general's star and not
 >a major's oak leaf.

No Kevin, you take a look at the image attached with this email.

I guess you were looking at the RameyDuBose image when you
_thought_ you saw the badge, easily done at a cursory glance.
What you should have done as I did 12+ months ago and cross
check with the other 2 instances of the cap/tie images, IF you
had done this you would have found the bright markings on the
cap in the Ramey/DuBose image are nothing more than negative
emulsion damage. The best image of the cap is contained in
RameyAlone, the main image in my attachment, as you can see from
the enhanced lower inset the cap is bare, the upper inset is the
RameyDubose version, _with damage_.

There actually _is_ a hint of some cap adornment which I've
marked with a "*" in the lowere inset but there's far too little
detail to go on IMHO.


 >>What we DO have, and dismissed totally by so many people (why?)
 >>are those photographs, of unchallenged provenance and hard
 >>evidence of instants captured in time of part of one of the
 >most >contentious pieces of recent US history.

 >The photographs have not been ignored. They have been examined
 >from the moment they were first identified. They show a weather
 >balloon and rawin target.

 >KRandle
 >

Do they?...

And now they also show a cap _without_ a badge which you said it
_had_?...

Will you now dispute the provanace of the photographs?, have
they changed since you first viewed them.?

It seems you have made an error in _one_ of your judgements of
these images just maybe you have made others too.?

Neil.

  thecap.jpg

-------------------------------------------------------
                      Neil Morris@Home.






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   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Aug > Aug 27

                Re: 'Doorway Amnesia' & Modern Day Abductees?

From: Dave Baker <davbak@globalnet.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 17:08:13 +0100
Fwd Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1999 05:59:24 -0400
Subject: Re: 'Doorway Amnesia' & Modern Day Abductees?


 >From: Jenny Randles <nufon@currantbun.com>
 >To: <updates@globalserve.net>
 >Subject: Re: 'Doorway Amnesia' & Modern Day Abductees?
 >Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 11:07:06 +0100

 >>From: Roy Hale <roy.hale@virgin.net>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
 >>Subject: 'Doorway Amnesia' & Modern Day Abductees?
 >>Date: Sat, 21 Aug 1999 15:13:38 +0100

 >>If the Abduction researchers on this list could enlighten us if
 >>this is the case with modern day Abductees. Does the memory of
 >>entering the craft always get wiped? Is this what you have found
 >>to be the case?

 >Hi,

 >Doorway Amnesia was discovered by Dr Eddie Bullard in his
 >analysis of hundreds of abductions. I can confirm that it is a
 >significant feature of British cases I have dealt with. Indeed
 >it is easily the most consistent feature of them - present in
 >over 95% of the cases I have dealt with. Similiar levels of
 >prevelance seem present elsewhere.

 >snip

 >The one question you have to ask - but very few do ask - is what
 >if this major tenet of UFOlogy is a massive mistake? What if the
 >abduction does not occur inside the UFO?

Hi Jenny, Roy & List,

There are a number of cases in which the abductee is convinced
that their abduction took place underground, in either caves or
even underground bases. I think there is at least one lengthy
example in Bryan's 'Close Encounters of the 4th Kind.'

A researcher in my own group interviewed an abductee who
conciously - no hypnotism folks -recalled that she was abducted
from her bedroom, but 'woke up' inside a huge outdoor
environment similar to a quarry, where abduction proceedures
took place. But like the Doorway Amnesia, she had no
recollection of travel to this 'quarry', or of a journey back.

Dave Baker - Yorkshire UFO Society





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   Aug > Aug 27

                      Re: 'New?' FBI memo about Roswell

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1999 06:06:02 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1999 06:06:02 -0400
Subject: Re: 'New?' FBI memo about Roswell

Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 21:45:03 -0700
To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
From: neil morris <neil@adm1.ph.man.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: 'New?' FBI memo about Roswell


 >From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
 >Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 09:14:45 EDT
 >Subject: Re: 'New?' FBI memo about Roswell
 >To: updates@globalserve.net

 >>Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 14:37:45 +0100
 >>From: Neil Morris <Neil@adm1.ph.man.ac.uk>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
 >>Subject: Re: 'New?' FBI memo about Roswell


Kevin and list,

 >>I do not intend to jump into the debate over the various "taped"
 >>interviews and what was said and not said with JBJ over the
 >>years, except to say that in the last few months an independant
 >>source has confirmed the main part of JBJ's recollections as
 >>they stand "today", and expanded intrestingly on what we now
 >>know of the events at the Star-Telegram and FWAAF at that time.

 >>JBJ would be the first to admit his memories of the photo
 >>session are fragmentory and as he put's it "in soundbites", a
 >>good description I think of old memories, unless your blessed
 >>(or cursed) with the photographic form, try recalling your own
 >>childhood memories and then attempt to drag out exact detail as
 >>questioning a witness, what colour was x?, what did y
 >>say..exactly?. I tried this little exercise on myself, it opened
 >>my eyes a little to the hurdles faced by witnesses when asked to
 >>recall events "in detail" from 50+ years ago, "soundbites" is a
 >>good description indeed.

 >>What Ramey did or did not say at the time we can NEVER be sure,
 >>nobody taped _that_ conversation and the only surviving person
 >>who was there will today readily admit he does not recall what
 >>Ramey said exactly word for word, only the "impression" he gave.

 >What a very interesting dodge. Johnson had very coherent
 >recollections of what transpired in General Ramey's office. He
 >offered those, with no prompting from me, suggesting that he was
 >told, upon arrival, that the debris was from a weather balloon.

I can only repeat as before, though we havn't got confirmation
of the events within Ramey's office at the time of the
photo-shoot, we do now have independant confirmation of the rest
of JDB's "current" recollections of events that day/night at the
ST/FWAAF and other associated events.

And no I'm not going to outline them at this time.

 >He returned to the office and wrote an article for the newspaper
 >which said much the same thing. In other words, the accounts
 >from the time confirm this version of the events. Yes, Johnson
 >said on tape, repeatedly that he wrote the July 9, 1947 article
 >which he now denies that he wrote.

_All_ that night's editions of the ST don't support this...

And

Which article?, there were 3 seperate "versions" printed in the
Star-Telegram that night from the 9/10pm "Bulldog" edition
through to the late edition in the early hours. JBJ maintains he
left directly after printing his pics!, his usual habit was to
make his colledge dorm by 6pm for dinner, he was late. The 3 ST
stories are _all_ different in content, mainly spun arround the
AP wire stories, except for one edition which does have some
"interesting" content not carried by any wireservice. The
"Bulldog" would have been the ONLY edition JBJ _could_ have
written copy for, it's content is _pure_ AP story.

 >Yes, there are problems with human memory, especially when the
 >events are so far in the past. Yes, memories evolve and change
 >as we attempt to "access" them. However, the problem here is not
 >one of small, expected changes but one that is at the core of
 >the entire story. That is, did General Ramey tell Johnson that
 >it was a weather balloon. The answer, according to Johnson,
 >originally, was "Yes." Now, it's "No."

 >And no one is suggesting that Johnson recall the exact words or
 >anything else. Just give us a feeling for what happened. That is
 >what he did in the original tapes and is what he is doing now.
 >Too bad that these impressions are contradictory.

 >That is the problem here, and not an attempt to recreate,
 >exactly, what was said by whom at the time. Johnson has
 >radically altered his story to the point where he is now
 >claiming that he unwrapped the debris. Get real.

Wether JBJ did or did not unwrap, handle or pose the debris,
talk or not talk to Ramey, Dubose or even Marcel is irrelevent
actually, when faced with the amount of data available in the
photographs he took.

 >Oh, and the cap on the radiator is not Marcel's, it's Ramey's.
 >Take a look at it again and you'll see a general's star and not
 >a major's oak leaf.

No Kevin, you take a look at the image attached with this email.

I guess you were looking at the RameyDuBose image when you
_thought_ you saw the badge, easily done at a cursory glance.
What you should have done as I did 12+ months ago and cross
check with the other 2 instances of the cap/tie images, IF you
had done this you would have found the bright markings on the
cap in the Ramey/DuBose image are nothing more than negative
emulsion damage. The best image of the cap is contained in
RameyAlone, the main image in my attachment, as you can see from
the enhanced lower inset the cap is bare, the upper inset is the
RameyDubose version, _with damage_.

There actually _is_ a hint of some cap adornment which I've
marked with a "*" in the lowere inset but there's far too little
detail to go on IMHO.


 >>What we DO have, and dismissed totally by so many people (why?)
 >>are those photographs, of unchallenged provenance and hard
 >>evidence of instants captured in time of part of one of the
 >most >contentious pieces of recent US history.

 >The photographs have not been ignored. They have been examined
 >from the moment they were first identified. They show a weather
 >balloon and rawin target.

 >KRandle
 >

Do they?...

And now they also show a cap _without_ a badge which you said it
_had_?...

Will you now dispute the provanace of the photographs?, have
they changed since you first viewed them.?

It seems you have made an error in _one_ of your judgements of
these images just maybe you have made others too.?

Neil.

  thecap.jpg

-------------------------------------------------------
                      Neil Morris@Home.

Email:             Neil@adm1.ph.man.ac.uk

Web Site:         Roswell - Alien Autopsy
                   http://adm2.ph.man.ac.uk/
                  The Fort Worth Photographs





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                              Re: UFO Ridicule

From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 21:58:28 +0100
Fwd Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1999 06:09:44 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO Ridicule


 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
 >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >Subject: Re: UFO Ridicule
 >Date: Tue, 24 Aug 99 20:45:44 PDT

 >>Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 21:57:08 +0100
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
 >>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
 >>Subject: Re: UFO Ridicule

 >>I just want to know _who_ are the people ridiculing ufologists,
 >>who are the _really_ iconoclastic ufologists, and just what *is*
 >>the conventional wisdom on this subject. I have had a number of
 >>off-list replies on this question, from people who have
 >>suggested, from their own experience, that ETH-oriented
 >>ufolgists seem to be the most prone to subject others to
 >>ridicule - I see plently of that on this list. I quote from one
 >>correspondent (he has not particularly asked me to preserve his
 >>anonymity, but as I have not asked otherwise, I shall do so):

 >>"I would also add that the argument could also be made that
 >>someone who suggests a relation between incubi/succubi attacks
 >>and alien abductions, or sleep paralysis and alien abductions,
 >>or other dimensional visitations vs hardware in the skys, or
 >>spiritual/demonic phenomena, or for that matter, attempts to
 >>relate the ufo phenomena to the paradigm emerging from quantum
 >>physics, is just as likely, if not MORE likely, to experience
 >>raised eyebrows or hostility, as someone suggesting visitors
 >>from Alpha Centuri to a population that believes in UFOs"

 >The point being, of course, that anybody who suggests that UFOs
 >are not conventionally explainable opens him- or herself up to
 >ridicule. Thanks for making my point. Apparently your anonymous
 >correspondent is more sensitive to the varying levels of
 >ridicule than most of us would be, including the ridiculers
 >themselves, but we agree on the essential point.

Absolutely, and as far as most non-ufologists are concerned the
ideas put forward by PSHers relating to the explanations
described by my correspondent above, are as strange and
unsettling as the ETH. If sceptical and psychosocial ufologists
were *really* afraid of ridicule, we wouldn't even be in ufology
in the first place.

 >We don't agree,
 >however, on how to spell the plural of "sky."

Always the sub-editor, eh, Jerry?

 >For the record, I think London is a great town. As you know,
 >I've actually been there. Another great town, though a very
 >different one, is Canby, Minnesota -- a place that, though
 >you'll never be here, you apparently believe you know all about.
 >But you wouldn't be a pelicanist if you didn't know all about
 >those things you're in fact ignorant of, would you? Nor would
 >you be one if you couldn't put down human beings of whom you
 >know precisely nothing. Way to go, guy. I am _really_ impressed.

I'm sure Canby is a fine town and its inhabitants fine people. I
was laying it on rather heavily, but that's because I was
baffled (you just have that effect on me, Jerry) by your strange
suggestion that my address was somehow an attempt to trivialise
and manage the UFO phenomenon.

I'm sure that most people on this lists are getting a bored with
this exchange as I am, so I'll call it quits now, and allow you
to claim victory over the pelicanists.

--
John Rimmer
Magonia Magazine





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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Aug > Aug 27

                      Re: 'New?' FBI memo about Roswell

From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 18:30:30 EDT
Fwd Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1999 06:18:31 -0400
Subject: Re: 'New?' FBI memo about Roswell


 >From: Neil Morris <neil@adm1.ph.man.ac.uk>
 >Date: Sun, 22 Aug 1999 10:03:35 -0700
 >Fwd Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 13:58:02 -0400
 >Subject: Re: 'New?' FBI memo about Roswell


 >FWIW as I read it, it's _not_ the cover story but a strong hint
 >as to what _actually_ happend that evening.

 >It does _totally_ support the "Cover Story" scenario  because of
 >the facts given being  _totally_ out of place in the timeline in
 >view of what was else being _fed_ to the news media that night.

 >This _URGENT_ teletype was sent out at 6.17pm FW time YET at
 >_5.30pm_ FW time, 45mins _before_, Maj Kirton of the the
 >Intellegence Office of the FWAAF was informing a reporter for
 >the Dallas Morning News that the debris was that of a High
 >Altitude Weather Balloon, nothing to make a fuss over, no need
 >to fly it on to WF, end of story. Please also note this was 1hr
 >_before_ Irving Newton's ID of the debris was sent out on the AP
 >wire (6.30pm FW) AND 30 mins _before_ Newton even came ON
 >DUTY(6.00pm FW).

 >To cap it all Kirton was identified as the AF contact who gave
 >the information in the teletype to the FBI Dallas office,
 >presumably shortly before the teletype was sent, after all it
 >was marked URGENT, and I doubt the FBI would sit on this info
 >for very long. So, 5.30pm the debris was a mundane Weather
 >Balloon for the press, and stopping at Fort Worth AAF yet for
 >the FBI at aprox 6.00pm AND reported by the self same Maj Kirton
 >"telephonic conversation" with the techie's at WF "had not borne
 >out that belief" ie, it _wasn't_ 'mundane debris' and it _was_
 >being flown on to Wright Field!. Yet at 6.30pm on the AP Wire,
 >Irving Newton says again it'a a mundane Weather Balloon. Later
 >that evening, radio reporter Joe Wilson in Chicago stated he had
 >spoken shortly before the broadcast with officials at Wright
 >Field and they were _still_ _awaiting_ the debris arrival.
 >Perhaps FWAAF hadn't told them it was just a weather balloon and
 >wouldn't be coming?.

 >Thomas Dubose plainly stated the Weather Balloon story was a
 >cover given under order of Gen McMullen to "get the press off
 >the AF's back", this single piece of evidence, the FBI teletype,
 >when viewed in context with all the other information coming out
 >of the AF for public consumtion seems clearly to say that is
 >_exactly_ what happened.

 >There's lots'a holes in the Fort Worth end of Roswell and yet
 >still more to come out.

Neil,

Thanks for the brief timeline, reiterating critical times in the
development of the cover story.  I don't think many people
understand just how quickly the weather balloon cover story
developed.  It was being put out by Ramey and Kirton well before
Irving Newton ever laid eyes on the wreckage in Gen. Ramey's
office and gave it an official identification.  It went out
before James Bond Johnson showed up to take his pictures.

Here are some more times to ponder, everything given FW time.
The Roswell press release announcing the recovery of a crashed
disk went out at 3:26 pm over the AP wire.  Three hours later at
6:30 was the AP bulletin of Newton identifying the wreckage as a
weather balloon radar target.  But a lot happened in between.

According to the New York Times, the story of the crashed disk
began to change within an hour of the crashed disk press
release.  A San Francisco Examiner reporter called Ramey
directly at FW within an hour, and according to the Examiner
story, Ramey opined that it looked like a radar target and
weather balloon.  The story also said that a weather officer
(Newton) was _later_ brought in to make the ID official.  The
Examiner claimed they were the first to get the true story out.

It should be noted that Bond Johnson's own newspaper, the FW
Star-Telegram said essentially the same thing.  Ramey thought it
was a radar target from the gitgo and later brought in a weather
officer.  One edition of the paper, also had Dubose immediately
IDing it:  "As soon as the 'disk' was brought into Gen. Ramey's
office, he and Col. Dubose tabbed it as a weather device.  The
weather officer on duty at the time, Warrant Officer Newton,
merely made identification positive."

The same story also attributed the following to Dubose:    "Col.
Dubose declared that tinfoil objects of the type used on the
kite were employed in Europe during bombing missions to throw
off German radar.  The tinfoil causes huge 'blips' on a radar
screen he added.  The same device also was used on life rafts in
the Pacific to facilitate air-sea rescue work."

Since Dubose later was in charge of A.F. air-sea rescue,  it
seems very likely that such statements did come from Dubose.
Dubose was obviously very familiar with the foil/paper
reflectors used in all such devices. The fact that Dubose later
went on record numerous times that the radar target was a cover
story cannot be ignored.

At 4:15 pm (according to Gen. Hoyt Vandenberg's diary),
Vandenberg left his office for an hour and apparently ducked
into the Pentagon press room to take direct charge of the story
(various newspaper, such as the Washington Post, NY Tiimes, and
SF Examiner).  Note this is again within an hour of the Roswell
press release.  From there, say the stories, both Roswell base
and Ramey in FW were called.

What exactly Ramey said while on the phone differs in various
news stories.  One from New York PM has Ramey saying he had seen
it, explicitly identifying the debris as the remains of a
weather balloon and radar reflector, adding it was high level
stuff and he hadn't let anybody see or photograph it yet.  He
would later bring in a weather officer for a look. So once again
Ramey was calling it a weather balloon/radar reflector well
before Irving Newton appeared and also before J.B. Johnson.

The Washington Post and other newspapers had Ramey declaring
that it looked something like a box-kite covered with foil and
was nothing to get excited about.  Then he added it was in his
office but he hadn't seen it yet.  He allegedly went to take a
look, then called back to say that it appeared to be 25 feet
across!  It seems Ramey simply made this up, since there is
nothing in the photos to remotely suggest such a dimension.  If
he made up the description, it strongly suggests nothing was
there yet.

Now let's move on to 4:53 pm, when an AP bulletin, with a
Washington dateline, had Ramey declaring that "the disk" HAD
been sent on to Wright Field.  Regardless of whether the debris
had or had not already been forwarded to Wright, this was the
first wire service story that explicitly mentioned Ramey's
involvement.  Previously there had been only vague AAF
statements (such as in the original Roswell press release) about
the disk being forwarded to unidentified "higher headquarters."

Back in FW, according to J B Johnson, his editor had been
following the story by teletype.  Therefore, 4:53 would mark the
time when the editor would first learn of the local angle and
know to dispatch a reporter to the base to cover the story.
Johnson says it would have taken about half an hour to drive
across town to the base, so this first places him in Ramey's
office around 5:30.

Note, this is the same time Ramey's intel officer Major Kirton
is telling the Dallas Morning News that's it's nothing but a
weather balloon and radar target.  The flight to Wright Field
had been cancelled, he tells them (a falsehood also repeated by
Ramey initially and an unidentified FW public information
officer according to other news stories). At around the same
time, Kirton was also apparently talking to the Dallas FBI
office.  He gave them another story, as reflected in the FBI
telegram of 6:17 pm.  Instead of being cancelled, the "disc and
balloon" were "being transported to Wright Field by special
plane for examination."

Well, then, if the "disc and balloon" was already on its way to
Wright Field (as noted also in the 4:53 news bulletin citing
Ramey himself), what the hell was in Ramey's office for Newton
to soon identify?  Perhaps substituted debris?

Johnson was there for about 20 minutes, took his photos, and
left shortly before 6:00.  Irving Newton came on duty at 6:00
and was immediately ordered to Ramey's office.  He ID'ed the
debris, had his picture taken by photographer unknown, and then
left quickly to return to his unmanned weather post.  At 6:30
was the AP bulletin announcing Newton's identification, though
hinted at earlier at 6:03 in another AP bulletin that came out
of Washington, saying it might be a meteorological device.  So,
before Newton even had a chance to ID the object, the Pentagon
was apparently also putting out the weather balloon story.

When did Marcel actually get to FW?  That is still uncertain.
In some newspaper stories, the AAF apparently claimed that
Marcel had left Roswell at 10:00 am.  This time was obviously
bogus, since that would have placed Marcel at FW no later than
noon.  Marcel's recollection was that when he first got to
Ramey's office with debris samples, Ramey wasn't there, but
arrived soon after.  The debris swap, photos, and speaking to
reporters happened a short time later.  Marcel was not in
Ramey's office for 5 or 6  hours.

There is also the testimony of Robert Porter, who was on the
plane with Marcel.  When they got to FW, the crew left to get
some food.  When they got back, they were told that the debris
on the plane had been transferred to another transport plane and
shipped to Wright Field.  They were also told that it was a
weather balloon.  Again, noonish or early afternoon was too soon
for this to happen.  It more likely happened close to the 4:53
announcement of the disk being shipped on to Wright Field.

Marcel recalled being ordered to FW to see Ramey in the morning,
but not leaving until the afternoon.  Note, it would take time
to properly prep and load a B-29 for flight.  There are also
indications in his testimony of him still being in Roswell when
the crashed disk story first hit the wire at 3:26 FW time.  He
said he was at Roswell at the time of Haut's press release
(though confused about the time, which he placed the previous
night) and, like others, also talked about trying to field
reporters' inquiries, but not being able to say anything.  He
also spoke of how a reporter apparently went to his home and his
wife referring the reporter to Col. Blanchard at the base.

This suggests that he left for FW soon after the press release,
probably at around the same time the press was being told Col.
Blanchard had gone on leave and was unavailable for comment.
According to witness Sgt. Robert Shirkey, Blanchard accompanied
Marcel to the plane.   And according to Robert Porter, the plane
was personally piloted by the Roswell Deputy C/O, Lt. Col. Payne
Jennings, the guy supposedly taking over from Blanchard on his
leave.  This was obviously mighty important balloon debris!

A B-29 could make the 400 mile flight in under an hour and a
half, maybe even an hour and a quarter, placing Marcel in FW at
around 5:00, close to the 4:53 bulletin time with Ramey saying
it had been forwarded to Wright Field.  Marcel went immediately
to Ramey's office, but Ramey wasn't there.  He may still have
been talking to some reporters or Washington on the phone, as
reported by the newspapers, or dealing with the message he had
in his hand when finally photographed by Johnson.  But soon he
came in.  Marcel showed him the debris samples.  They went to
the map room.  When they come back, the debris Marcel brought
had been swapped with that of a weather balloon.  Johnson was
now there, took his pictures, and so on.

Under this scenario, any description about the debris that Ramey
made prior to Marcel's arrival or claims that he had seen it
were bogus.  I think this explains the strange statement by
Ramey, reported by the Washington Post and elsewhere, of going
to take a look at the debris in his office, and then saying it
was 25 feet across.  There was simply nothing there yet for
Ramey to look at.  It had been decided that a weather balloon
was going to be the cover story, so Ramey just had to give vague
descriptions to the press until the weather balloon was finally
brought to his office.

Ramey's operations officer, Col. John Ryan, had already hinted
to the press the day before that weather balloon radar targets
were a likely explanation for the flying disk reports.  This
also coincided with a photo of the Circleville, Ohio crashed
radar target appearing on the front page of the FW Star Telegram
the same day.  It looks to me like this cover story could have
been in the works for a full day.  The Army and Navy then
followed up with several weather balloon and radar target
demonstrations in succeeding days as part of a flying saucer
debunking campaign, as explicitly mentioned by United Press in
the lead sentence of their Roswell story on July 9.  (A year
later, the Air Force likewise tried to use a radar target as the
"explanation" for the famous Chiles-Whitted airline pilot
sighting.)

The following year, Ryan replaced Blanchard at Roswell.  Ryan
eventually became the AF Chief of Staff and Chairman of the
Joint Chiefs (his son Michael is the current AF C of S).   Ryan,
Blanchard, and Ramey all gave Marcel sterling recommendations a
year later when he was being transferred to higher intelligence
work.  Blanchard said he was "exceptionally well qualified" and
"highly reliable."  Both Ryan and Ramey called Marcel
"outstanding."  Ramey thought him command officer material.  The
SAC made him Chief of some sort of foreign air intelligence
division (actually termed "Alien Capabilities" -- no kidding),
what they called a "key" position.  Does this sound like
somebody who misidentified a balloon and embarrassed his
superiors?






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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Aug > Aug 27

                      Re: 'New?' FBI memo about Roswell

From: neil morris <neil@adm1.ph.man.ac.uk>
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 21:45:03 -0700
Fwd Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1999 06:43:16 -0400
Subject: Re: 'New?' FBI memo about Roswell


  >From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
  >Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 09:14:45 EDT
  >Subject: Re: 'New?' FBI memo about Roswell
  >To: updates@globalserve.net

  >>Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 14:37:45 +0100
  >>From: Neil Morris <Neil@adm1.ph.man.ac.uk>
  >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
  >>Subject: Re: 'New?' FBI memo about Roswell


Kevin and list,

  >>I do not intend to jump into the debate over the various "taped"
  >>interviews and what was said and not said with JBJ over the
  >>years, except to say that in the last few months an independant
  >>source has confirmed the main part of JBJ's recollections as
  >>they stand "today", and expanded intrestingly on what we now
  >>know of the events at the Star-Telegram and FWAAF at that time.

  >>JBJ would be the first to admit his memories of the photo
  >>session are fragmentory and as he put's it "in soundbites", a
  >>good description I think of old memories, unless your blessed
  >>(or cursed) with the photographic form, try recalling your own
  >>childhood memories and then attempt to drag out exact detail as
  >>questioning a witness, what colour was x?, what did y
  >>say..exactly?. I tried this little exercise on myself, it opened
  >>my eyes a little to the hurdles faced by witnesses when asked to
  >>recall events "in detail" from 50+ years ago, "soundbites" is a
  >>good description indeed.

  >>What Ramey did or did not say at the time we can NEVER be sure,
  >>nobody taped _that_ conversation and the only surviving person
  >>who was there will today readily admit he does not recall what
  >>Ramey said exactly word for word, only the "impression" he gave.

  >What a very interesting dodge. Johnson had very coherent
  >recollections of what transpired in General Ramey's office. He
  >offered those, with no prompting from me, suggesting that he was
  >told, upon arrival, that the debris was from a weather balloon.

I can only repeat as before, though we havn't got confirmation
of the events within Ramey's office at the time of the
photo-shoot, we do now have independant confirmation of the rest
of JDB's "current" recollections of events that day/night at the
ST/FWAAF and other associated events.

And no I'm not going to outline them at this time.

  >He returned to the office and wrote an article for the newspaper
  >which said much the same thing. In other words, the accounts
  >from the time confirm this version of the events. Yes, Johnson
  >said on tape, repeatedly that he wrote the July 9, 1947 article
  >which he now denies that he wrote.

_All_ that night's editions of the ST don't support this...

And

Which article?, there were 3 seperate "versions" printed in the
Star-Telegram that night from the 9/10pm "Bulldog" edition
through to the late edition in the early hours. JBJ maintains he
left directly after printing his pics!, his usual habit was to
make his colledge dorm by 6pm for dinner, he was late. The 3 ST
stories are _all_ different in content, mainly spun arround the
AP wire stories, except for one edition which does have some
"interesting" content not carried by any wireservice. The
"Bulldog" would have been the ONLY edition JBJ _could_ have
written copy for, it's content is _pure_ AP story.

  >Yes, there are problems with human memory, especially when the
  >events are so far in the past. Yes, memories evolve and change
  >as we attempt to "access" them. However, the problem here is not
  >one of small, expected changes but one that is at the core of
  >the entire story. That is, did General Ramey tell Johnson that
  >it was a weather balloon. The answer, according to Johnson,
  >originally, was "Yes." Now, it's "No."

  >And no one is suggesting that Johnson recall the exact words or
  >anything else. Just give us a feeling for what happened. That is
  >what he did in the original tapes and is what he is doing now.
  >Too bad that these impressions are contradictory.

  >That is the problem here, and not an attempt to recreate,
  >exactly, what was said by whom at the time. Johnson has
  >radically altered his story to the point where he is now
  >claiming that he unwrapped the debris. Get real.

Wether JBJ did or did not unwrap, handle or pose the debris,
talk or not talk to Ramey, Dubose or even Marcel is irrelevent
actually, when faced with the amount of data available in the
photographs he took.

  >Oh, and the cap on the radiator is not Marcel's, it's Ramey's.
  >Take a look at it again and you'll see a general's star and not
  >a major's oak leaf.

No Kevin, you take a look at the image attached with this email.

I guess you were looking at the RameyDuBose image when you
_thought_ you saw the badge, easily done at a cursory glance.
What you should have done as I did 12+ months ago and cross
check with the other 2 instances of the cap/tie images, IF you
had done this you would have found the bright markings on the
cap in the Ramey/DuBose image are nothing more than negative
emulsion damage. The best image of the cap is contained in
RameyAlone, the main image in my attachment, as you can see from
the enhanced lower inset the cap is bare, the upper inset is the
RameyDubose version, _with damage_.

There actually _is_ a hint of some cap adornment which I've
marked with a "*" in the lowere inset but there's far too little
detail to go on IMHO.


  >>What we DO have, and dismissed totally by so many people (why?)
  >>are those photographs, of unchallenged provenance and hard
  >>evidence of instants captured in time of part of one of the
  >most >contentious pieces of recent US history.

  >The photographs have not been ignored. They have been examined
  >from the moment they were first identified. They show a weather
  >balloon and rawin target.

  >KRandle
  >

Do they?...

And now they also show a cap _without_ a badge which you said it
_had_?...

Will you now dispute the provanace of the photographs?, have
they changed since you first viewed them.?

It seems you have made an error in _one_ of your judgements of
these images just maybe you have made others too.?

Neil.

   thecap.jpg

-------------------------------------------------------
                       Neil Morris@Home.






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   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Aug > Aug 27

                     Re: Kenneth Arnold's 'Flying Discs'

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 21:08:58 EDT
Fwd Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1999 06:36:13 -0400
Subject: Re: Kenneth Arnold's 'Flying Discs'


 >From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@aol.com>
 >Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 08:58:55 EDT
 >Subject: Kenneth Arnold's 'Flying Discs'
 >To: updates@globalserve.net

 >>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >>Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 00:20:25 -0400
 >>Fwd Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 17:19:20 -0400
 >>Subject: Re: Kenneth Arnold's 'Flying Discs'

 >>If there is one thing I have learned abou ufology it is that you
 >>get to study so many seemingly non-related issues....
 >>_In_ the Zamorra case we are learning more than we ever wanted
 >>to know about balloons, and here it is pelicans uber alles!

 >>My only conclusion after reviewing this pelican information is
 >>that pelicans are even less likely than before to be the
 >>explanation.

 >I was hiking last week in Point Reyes, north of San Francisco,
 >on the Pacific Ocean.  There are lots of California brown
 >pelicans flying up and down the coast.  These aren't the same as
 >those pesky Great White Pelicans that the pelicanist rhapsodize
 >about for the Arnold sighting.  But since we are learning more
 >than we ever wanted to know about pelicans, I throw in some of
 >my observations.

 >The largest of these pelicans appeared to measure maybe 5 or 6
 >feet, wing-tip to wing- tip, with a body maybe 2 feet long.
 >Despite flying down at sea level, these birds were flapping
 >wings almost continuously, except for an occasional brief glide
 >now and then.  What about pelicans thousands of feet up, like
 >what would be needed for the Arnold sighting?  Well the air is
 >less dense up there, the GWP's are larger, and near-continuous
 >wing beating would seem to be essential to maintain altitude and
 >speed.  If Arnold was close enough to discern some shape, this
 >wing-beating should have been readily apparent.

 >I made estimates of speed by timing their flight from several
 >hundred north of me until they flew several hundred feet south
 >of my position. Even when I used conservative figures for
 >distance, I never got speeds faster than 30 mph.  Most of the
 >time the speeds were in the 15 to 25 mph range.  These estimates
 >are admittedly rough and don't necessarily apply to GWP's, of
 >course.

 >There was certainly no common denominator as to how the pelicans
 >travelled.  Some were loners.  Others clearly flew in pairs.
 >They flew near one another, and when one turned and paused to
 >fly into the wind and "hover" over the ocean, so did the other.

 >I saw two larger formation flights.  One was a diamond shape of
 >four birds.  Another was a lopsided V-shape of 6 birds, with a
 >lone bird on one side of the V and 4 others on the other side
 >behind the leader.  In these geometric formations, the birds
 >were in extremely close quarters, flying literally wing-tip to
 >wing-tip, as they must for true formation flying.

 >Arnold, however, saw 9 objects in single file in echelon
 >formation strung out over about 10+ degrees.  If one assumes
 >that the "birds" were at least two miles away so that Arnold
 >couldn't clearly discern any flapping or other clear signs of
 >"pelicaness," like beaks,  then 10+ degrees translates into the
 >birds being separated from each other by at least 200+ feet.
 >That is NOT true formation flying.

 >I did sometimes see groups of 3 to 5 pelicans flying in very
 >loose single file, meaning one bird might _seem_ to be following
 >soon after the other and roughly separated anywhere from 50 to
 >200 feet.  But there was nothing particularly coordinated about
 >their flight nor was this step-like echelon flying.  The spacing
 >was completely irregular, the flapping was not in sync, nor did
 >a trailing bird necessarily turn in a predictable way when the
 >one in front did.  It was more like a group of otherwise lone
 >birds simply following coastline together, but not one another.

 >It was late in the afternoon, the sun was getting low, so I also
 >tried to observe the pelicans when their angle to the sun was
 >low on the chance that I might catch some of that bird sheen off
 >those oily feathers that we hear so much about.  Well, I never
 >saw it, but again these were brown pelicans and less reflective.
 >Off in the distance, maybe a mile up the coast, they looked like
 >nothing more than dark dots and were hard to see.

 >So much for my pelican-watching.

 >David

PIcky-picky Mr. Rood... Rud Eeee Aaack.  I got it.  RUDIACK!

OK. Now for the points.  The pelicans which Arnold saw were from
New York State. They are oilier, bigger, whiter and faster than
anywhere else on the planet.  Also, they are shaped a lot
differently than in the west.  For example, they are more like
circles with a chunk cut out, like the half moon.

We New Yorkers all know this to be so.  Now the question is,
what the hell were they doing flying around Mt. Rainier....
Rainier, Rainy... whatever?

Well, they were abducted by aliens flying in spacecraft which
look much like birds of pray... you know, like the Star Trek bad
guys. And they were flown to the west coast in an effort to
determine just how smart these New York Pelicans were as
compared with their west coast counterparts.  See, they were
being studied for a new design in bird of pray spacecraft by the
Mongos'.

Funny thing about this entire project which the aliens learned?
The birds turned out to be a lot smarter than the pelicanists.

Wierd, huh?






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                     Re: Kenneth Arnold's 'Flying Discs'

From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 21:40:51 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1999 06:41:51 -0400
Subject: Re: Kenneth Arnold's 'Flying Discs'


 >From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@aol.com>
 >Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 08:58:55 EDT
 >Subject: Kenneth Arnold's 'Flying Discs'
 >To: updates@globalserve.net

<snip>

 >It was late in the afternoon, the sun was getting low, so I also
 >tried to observe the pelicans when their angle to the sun was
 >low on the chance that I might catch some of that bird sheen off
 >those oily feathers that we hear so much about.  Well, I never
 >saw it, but again these were brown pelicans and less reflective.
 >Off in the distance, maybe a mile up the coast, they looked like
 >nothing more than dark dots and were hard to see.

 >So much for my pelican-watching.


David,

As you say in the snipped part above, the Great White is indeed
a bird of a different color.

In early August I saw one up fairly close in Jackson Hole,
Wyoming. These guys are _big_ birds, a ten-foot wingspan being
no exaggeration. He/she flew much like a hawk or buzzard -- a
leisurely flap of the wing now and then, followed by a long,
graceful glide.

They are a brilliant white and can easily be seen at a distance
of miles (as I did back in June in the same location).

Not saying (or even suggesting!) that that's what Arnold saw --
just saying that the Great White Pelican is truly impressive in
person. And that they hang out around Jackson Hole, if nowhere
else.

Which I guess qualifies me as a pelicanist. Happily, as my wife
happens to be an aviculturist.






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                NASA Unveils First Images From Chandra X-Ray

From: NASANews@hq.nasa.gov
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 13:00:16 -0400 (EDT)
Fwd Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1999 07:07:10 -0400
Subject: NASA Unveils First Images From Chandra X-Ray

Donald Savage
Headquarters, Washington, DC     August 26, 1999
(Phone:  202/358-1547)

Dave Drachlis
Marshall Space Flight Center, Huntsville, AL
(Phone:  256/544-0034)

Dr. Wallace Tucker
Chandra X-ray Observatory Center, SAO, Cambridge, MA
(Phone:  617/496-7998)

RELEASE:  99-98

NASA UNVEILS FIRST IMAGES FROM CHANDRA X-RAY OBSERVATORY

Extraordinary first images from NASA's Chandra X-ray Observatory
trace the aftermath of a gigantic stellar explosion in such
stunning detail that scientists can see evidence of what may be
a neutron star or black hole near the center.  Another image
shows a powerful X-ray jet blasting 200,000 light years into
intergalactic space from a distant quasar.

Released today, both images confirm that NASA's newest Great
Observatory is in excellent health and its instruments and
optics are performing up to expectations. Chandra, the world's
largest and most sensitive X-ray telescope, is still in its
orbital check-out and calibration phase.

"When I saw the first image, I knew that the dream had been
realized," said Dr. Martin Weisskopf, Chandra Project Scientist,
NASA's Marshall Space Flight Center, Huntsville, AL.  "This
observatory is ready to take its place in the history of
spectacular scientific achievements."

"We were astounded by these images," said Harvey Tananbaum,
Director of the Smithsonian Astrophysical Observatory's Chandra
X- ray Center, Cambridge, MA.  "We see the collision of the
debris from the exploded star with the matter around it, we see
shock waves rushing into interstellar space at millions of miles
per hour, and, as a real bonus, we see for the first time a
tantalizing bright point near the center of the remnant that
could possibly be a collapsed star associated with the
outburst."

After the telescope's sunshade door was opened last week, one of
the first images taken was of the 320-year-old supernova remnant
Cassiopeia A, which astronomers believe was produced by the
explosion of a massive star.  Material blasted into space from
the explosion crashed into surrounding material at 10 million
miles per hour.  This collision caused violent shock waves, like
massive sonic booms, creating a vast 50-million degree bubble of
X-ray emitting gas.

Heavy elements in the hot gas produce X-rays of specific
energies.  Chandra's ability to precisely measure these X-rays
tells how much of each element is present.  With this
information, astronomers can investigate how the elements
necessary for life are created and spread throughout the galaxy
by exploding stars.

"Chandra will help to confirm one of the most fascinating
theories of modern science -- that we came from the stars," said
Professor Robert Kirshner of Harvard University.  "Its ability
to make X-ray images of comparable quality to optical images
will have an impact on virtually every area of astronomy."

Chandra also imaged a distant and very luminous quasar -- a
single star-like object -- sporting a powerful X-ray jet
blasting into space.  The quasar radiates with the power of 10
trillion suns, energy which scientists believe comes from a
supermassive black hole at its center.  Chandra's image,
combined with radio telescope observations, should provide
insight into the process by which supermassive black holes can
produce such cosmic jets.

"Chandra has allowed NASA to seize the opportunity to put the
U.S. back in the lead of observational X-ray astronomy," said
Dr. Edward Weiler, Associate Administrator of Space Science,
NASA Headquarters, Washington, DC.  "History teaches us that
whenever you develop a telescope 10 times better than what came
before, you will revolutionize astronomy.  Chandra is poised to
do just that."

The Chandra X-ray observatory was named in honor of the late
Nobel laureate Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar.  NASA's Marshall
Space Flight Center manages the Chandra program.  TRW, Inc.,
Redondo Beach, CA, is the prime contractor for the spacecraft.
The Smithsonian's Chandra X-ray Center controls science and
flight operations from Cambridge, MA.

The first Chandra images will be posted to the Internet at:

http://chandra.nasa.gov      andhttp://chandra.havard.edu

       -end-

     * * *

NASA press releases and other information are available
automatically by sending an Internet electronic mail message to
domo@hq.nasa.gov. In the body of the message (not the subject
line) users should type the words "subscribe press-release" (no
quotes).  The system will reply with a confirmation via E-mail
of each subscription.  A second automatic message will include
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unsubscribe from this mailing list, address an E-mail message to
domo@hq.nasa.gov, leave the subject blank, and type only
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   Aug > Aug 27

                             CE: Mantell Update

From: slk <slk@EVANSVILLE.NET>
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 06:51:29 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1999 07:08:13 -0400
Subject: CE: Mantell Update

Greetings,

Here is the new Mantell site with new documents supporting
something other than a  balloon (skyhook or otherwise). If
nothing else it illustrates that we'd have a very strange set of
coincidences in this one day's list of observations. It also
shows that important documents were conveniently left out of the
Blue Book files.

http://www.evansville.net/~slk/mantell.htm

Fran


Support AND USE the research web sites by sending $1 a month to:
Sites
618 Davis Drive
Mt. Vernon, IN  47620
Main InterLink Site Directory:
http://www.evansville.net/~slk/InterLink.html






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                       June UFO Report From New Mexico

From: Kenny Young <ufo@FUSE.NET>
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 06:36:53 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1999 07:24:03 -0400
Subject: June UFO Report From New Mexico

This is a recently submitted sighting from last June in New
Mexico, and I am not familiar if there are any researchers or
organizations in this region that tracks or documents sightings,
or maintains a regional database. The sender does not wish to
provide a name to the list, although the person agrees to have
her E-mail address made known if a researcher wanted to contact
her. At any rate, here is the report received yesterday, and
sent to the list with permission...

--------------------------------

Subject: sighting?
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 17:46:33 EDT
From: Jdoty333@aol.com To:  ufo@fuse.net

About 10:30 p.m on June 10th, my fiancee, my daughter and I were
driving west on I-40 near Alburquerque, NM to a family reunion
in CA; daughter i n back reading, fiancee driving, I was looking
at the millions of stars; it was a beautiful night.  We were in
the middle of nowhere.  I noticed two intensely bright stars in
the northern sky about 20/25 degrees up from the horizon just
about exactly parallel to the car.  But, they were just too
bright for regular stars.  I asked my fiancee to pull over so we
could get a better look.  After about a minute, we got out the
binoculars to get a better look. Just intensely bright, blue
light with an "aura" around them was all we could see.  They
were about the same distance apart as they were up off of the
ground.  Suddenly, the light on the left shot off toward the
west at a mind-numbing speed, dipped down a bit, back up and
just STOPPED again in the sky.  Then the light on the right
started to "mosey" toward the east.  We drove like crazy to try
and catch it and get to the point where it was parallel with the
car again.  The interstate was straight at this point and
another light "blinked" on right in front us in the sky and
started to move slowly toward the light which had moved west.
(That really got our attention!!)  It finally just went away,
behind a mountain or somewhere, perhaps.

We drove for about 1/2 hour trying to catch up to the light that
had darted off and never even got close.  We were doing about 80
mph.  It was still in the sky where it  stopped.  We got to a
little town and lost it in the trees and town lights.

The light on the right and the "blinked on" light had what
seemed to be some blinking lights on them but no noise.  We had
turned off the car when we initially pulled over to see if we
could hear anything and there wasn't a sound.

My fiancee is 54 and director of an arts organization.  I am one
of his board members.  My daughter is a 19 year old college
student.  We all saw them.

Did anyone else?  Got a clue as to what it was that we did see?
I wanted to notify someone immediately but didn't want to seem
like a kook.  I am not, I assure you.

Your reply with additional information would be much
appreciated.  Thank you for your time.

[name deleted]
Jdoty333@aol.com
Hot Springs National Park, AR
--
UFO Research
http://home.fuse.net/ufo/







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                             P-47: Corso's DA66

From: Jim Klotz <jimklotz@FOXINTERNET.NET>
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 19:10:29 -0700
Fwd Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1999 07:33:19 -0400
Subject: P-47: Corso's DA66


Somewhat belatedly, we have posted Philip Corso's US Army
DA66 forms, along with the FOIA release letter and comment
mostly provided by Jan Aldrich.

Thanks to Jan [Aldrich] for providing the material to us, and
thanks to Larry Bryant who originally obtained that material
through FOIA.

This material is available at:

http://www.cufon.org/cufon/corso_da66.htm

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Jim Klotz [CUFON SYSOP]   I put a $dollar in the change machine....
jimklotz@foxinternet.net        But nothing changed!
http://www.cufon.org





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                     Re: Socorro: The Zamora 'Insignia'

From: Asgeir W. Skavhaug <asge-s@online.no>
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1999 14:34:43 +0200
Fwd Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1999 21:25:07 -0400
Subject: Re: Socorro: The Zamora 'Insignia'


 >From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@aol.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
 >Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 08:51:50 EDT
 >Subject: Re: Socorro: The Zamora 'Insignia'

 >>From: Larry Robinson  S/AP/EIS Kinesiology <lrobins@indiana.edu>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
 >>Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 16:13:06 -0400
 >>Subject: Re: Socorro: The Zamora 'Insignia'

 >>Socorro: The Author Responds
 >>First, I suggest that you read my web page before arguing the
 >>contents. Many of your arguments were already addressed.

<snip>

 >Leon Davidson, a Los Alamos chemist and the guy who initially
 >got his hands on Blue Book Special Report #14, had his own
 >theory about the object and logo.  It was a secret government
 >craft operated by the CIA.  If you turn the "C" sideways, stick
 >the "I" in the center of the "A", and place the "IA" combo
 >underneath the sideways "C", you have a stylish CIA logo.
 >Davidson even went so far as to suggest that, as an inside
 >agency joke, it also stood for former CIA director Allen Dulles'
 >initials:  D opened up and turned sideways with the A sandwiched
 >inbetween.  Hey, it's possible, isn't it?

 >Here's my theory.  Many real estate companies sport logos
 >similar to what Zamora described, a pitched home roof being the
 >"arrow" shape in Zamora's drawing.  (One in the San Francisco
 >yellow pages even has an arch over the top).  So this was a
 >sighting of two small real estate agents in a white Chevy
 >looking at the mayor's property.  The mayor was considering
 >placing a fried chicken wings fast-food place there, so the real
 >estate agents pounded some test holes in the ground to test for
 >soil compactness (accounts for indentations in ground), then
 >burned a clearing with gasoline at the proposed fried chicken
 >wings site (burned bush, scorched rock).

<snip>

David & List,

Here are some of _my_ speculations regarding the Zamora
sighting.

If we (for the time being) rule out the balloon theory, and
assuming that Zamora wasn't (willingly or unwillingly)
hallucinating, we can say that the craft reported -- and
("badly" ) sketched -- by Zamora, i.e.,

http://www.qtm.net/~geibdan/a1999/mar/zamora.htm

seemed to have:

* A fairly powerful, noisy booster motor to leave the ground and
get into the air.

    - Therefore, this seems to me to be more of an ordinary,
      'terrestrial' combustion propulsion system, but it doesn't
      really need to be like this.

*Possibly a different and much less noisy propulsion system
taking over to cruise the craft through the air.


   - Well, the balloon, or airship/blimp, theory cannot really be
     ruled out here -- assuming that the speed of the craft was
     (significantly) overestimated (though, there were possibly
     high winds in the area that day, which could speed up the
     craft.)

Further,

*No windows, doors or hatches along the fuselage were sketched
*No technical details of the craft were sketched (e.g., nozzles,
exhaust pipes, etc.) -- just the egg shape, the legs and the
insignia.

     -  The insignia seems to be sketched fairly detailed. And,
     what is the 'big circle' sketched around the sketched craft
     suppose to mean?

*The two "humanoids" were not sketched (Did they need any
breathing apparatus? Helmets? What did they really look like?)

*The 'humanoids' 'just stood' outside the craft, seemingly doing
nothing (or, they didn't have time to do anything before Zamora
came).

*They probably stayed for only a short time at the site; they
landed just before Zamora arrived at the site, and then they
'had to hurry'.



And, further, one can ask the question why the craft (piloted by
_terrestrials or ETs_) did stop at the particular site, which is
within a ravine in the dry desert -- but, right in the middle of
the socalled Socorro Seismic Anomaly, SSA (see below)! (Seismic
activity can also be caused by underground nuclear, or regular,
bomb testing.) Apparently, the craft didn't have any engine
trouble, either.

Some speculative answers might be to (keep anonymous, and not
being observed by the military ground radars in the area) and:

*Undertake espionage; study military activity in the area
*Close-up study of landscape, animals, plants and/or soil
*Collect samples of animals, plants and/or soil
*Take pictures
*Undertake measurements of radiation and/or seismic activity in
the area, including results from military activity (atomic bomb
testing?)
*Have some fresh air, and stretch their legs (after a looong
travel?)
*Navigational problems
*Search for water/food
*Abduct people/mutilate animals
*Take a leak

In any case, _they got scared and had to hurry_ -- as usual in
such UFO cases. But why??

One of my speculations deals really with the possible
correlation between the alleged Zamora sighting and earthquakes
in the area.

Thus, according to:

http://krach.nmt.edu/R82/R82.HTM

with the following excerpt:

  "The Socorro region is of particular importance because it
  contributes a disproportionate share of the state's seismicity.
  The concentration of earthquake activity in the Socorro area
  shows up clearly on a map of the seismicity of New Mexico
  (Figure 1). The dense cluster of activity in the west central
  part of the state is shown in greater detail in Figure 2.
  _Because the concentration of activity near Socorro is so
  sharply defined and unusual, the name Socorro Seismic Anomaly
  (SSA) has been proposed for the region_ (Sanford et al.,
  1995a). The size of the SSA is 5200 km2 which is only 1.6
  percent of the total area of New Mexico yet it accounted for 36
  percent of the state's earthquake activity from 1962 through
  1995."

And, also according to:

http://www.nmt.edu/mainpage/news/tremors.html

with the following excerpts:

  "Historical and recent records of earthquakes in New Mexico
  show that, although the area along the Rio Grande from Socorro
  north to Bernardo occupies only two percent of the total area
  of the state, it accounts for about 45 percent of all of New
  Mexico's earthquake activity. Seismic records also show that
  the earthquake activity in the area is often dominated by
  swarms of temblors lasting days or weeks, some strong enough to
  be felt."

------------

  "Aster explains that the relatively high earthquake activity in
  the Socorro area, an area that seismologists refer to as the
  "Socorro seismic anomaly," is probably attributable to the
  ongoing inflation of a mostly thin, yet extensive, horizontal
  layer of molten rock, the 'Socorro magma body,' residing about
  12 miles below the middle Rio Grande valley, between Socorro
  and Bernardo. -NMT- George Zamora."

Further, according to:

http://www.laurentian.ca/www/neurosci/tectonicedit.htm

with the following excerpt:

  "As stresses accumulate over time, UFO phenomena are generated.
  Generally there is a critical magnitude of stress that
  precipitates a sudden, substantial release in the strain
  energy: this is called an earthquake or a seismic event.
  According to the TST, detectable earthquakes do not cause most
  UFOs. Instead, both UFOs or ALP and earthquakes are generated
  by the same process: earth stress. Because earth stresses
  generally escalate over several months to years before
  earthquakes, most UFO reports _should precede earthquakes_.
  However variations in local stresses frequently follow strong
  seismic events; consequently a small proportion in the numbers
  of UFOs should occur during these adjustment periods."

Coupling the above mentioned information one can start
speculating in the possibility of a positive correlation between
the seismic activity in the Socorro area _and the Zamora
sighting_.

Also referring to:

http://krach.nmt.edu/R79/table1.gif

 From this table we can see that the Zamora sighting occurred in
a period between a couple of earthquakes with high magnitude; in
the "short" period between 6 June '63 and 23 Jan '66; among the
very few highest in a 30-year period, with magnitudes of 4.0 and
4.8.

Then, should there possibly be any correlation between the
Zamora sighting and the seismic activity in the Socorro area?

However, this is only a coarse speculation, inspired by the
report mentioned above, and it doesn't need to mean anything at
all!

Why should there be any correlation at all? What should be the
reason or cause for possible correlation? Was the sighting
(existing) due to (or caused by) the seismic activity (before
and/or after the latest earthquakes), _or vice versa_? And, were
'they' really terrestrials or ETs? Can the assumption that
Zamora wasn't (willingly or unwillingly) hallucinating be
completely ruled out ? (unwillingly due to, e.g., the release of
anomalous electromagnetic fields and radioactive gases). And,
can the possibility for hoaxing, conspiracy or collusion be
completely ruled out? Did Zamora have any psychotic problems?

In the Zamora case I guess we'll never get an exact answer to
this. I would say that it will continue to be 'just an
interesting story' -- but, the speculations or debate around
this story should, in my opinion, continue in any case.


Regards,





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                              Re: UFO Ridicule

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 99 08:44:34 PDT
Fwd Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1999 21:31:02 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO Ridicule


 >Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 21:58:28 +0100
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
 >From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
 >Subject: Re: UFO Ridicule

 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
 >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >>Subject: Re: UFO Ridicule
 >>Date: Tue, 24 Aug 99 20:45:44 PDT

 >>>Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 21:57:08 +0100
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
 >>>From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
 >>>Subject: Re: UFO Ridicule


Hi, John,

 >>The point being, of course, that anybody who suggests that UFOs
 >>are not conventionally explainable opens him- or herself up to
 >>ridicule. Thanks for making my point. Apparently your anonymous
 >>correspondent is more sensitive to the varying levels of
 >>ridicule than most of us would be, including the ridiculers
 >>themselves, but we agree on the essential point.

 >Absolutely, and as far as most non-ufologists are concerned the
 >ideas put forward by PSHers relating to the explanations
 >described by my correspondent above, are as strange and
 >unsettling as the ETH. If sceptical and psychosocial ufologists
 >were *really* afraid of ridicule, we wouldn't even be in ufology
 >in the first place.

With all due respect, you're making claims to radicalism you
really don't deserve.  For virtually as long as there has been a
UFO controversy, PSH-like notions have been bandied about, in
the most respectable forums, to account for UFO sightings. (A
particularly egregious example: "Psychiatry and UFO Reports" by
Lester Grinspoon and Alan D. Persky, in Sagan and Page's UFOs: A
Scientific Debate [1972].)

The claim that witnesses suffer from grotesque misperceptions
is, in fact, a hoary one.  The principal difference between PSH
and traditional debunking is that you guys gave debunking
another name. To your credit, you also pioneered the lit-crit
approach to ufological discourse. I don't mean that, as no doubt
you're taking it, as an unqualified putdown. The quality of
prose in Magonia is admirable, even if in the service of the
ideas most ufologists would find untenable.

A second point: By suggesting that a desire for respectability
and a fear of ridicule may have something to do with
neoskeptical approaches within ufology, I meant merely to make a
point: that unconscious impulses may drive PSHers as much as the
rest of us, about whose unconscious impulses, real or imagined,
PSHers have had much to say. In other words, if you dish it out,
you have to take it.  That, however, is not the same as saying
that is the end of the discussion.  In the end, it is our ideas
we are obliged to respect and discuss, not our alleged
unconscious motivations.  And that applies to your side as much
as mine.

 >>For the record, I think London is a great town. As you know,
 >>I've actually been there. Another great town, though a very
 >>different one, is Canby, Minnesota -- a place that, though
 >>you'll never be here, you apparently believe you know all about.
 >>But you wouldn't be a pelicanist if you didn't know all about
 >>those things you're in fact ignorant of, would you? Nor would
 >>you be one if you couldn't put down human beings of whom you
 >>know precisely nothing. Way to go, guy. I am _really_ impressed.

 >I'm sure Canby is a fine town and its inhabitants fine people. I
 >was laying it on rather heavily, but that's because I was
 >baffled (you just have that effect on me, Jerry) by your strange
 >suggestion that my address was somehow an attempt to trivialise
 >and manage the UFO phenomenon.

What baffled me, and continues to baffle me, about your
thin-skinned response to the mild -- very mild -- joke I made
about your address is that you, probably unlike most list
members, know who John Dee was.  You yourself made a joke about
it in Magonia years ago when you moved into the house. (For the
uninitiated, John Dee was a still controversial Elizabethan
alchemist/Cabalist. For a good, short account of his curious
life and career, see Chapter 8 of Frances A. Yates's The Occult
Philosophy in the Elizabethan Age [1979].)

You told the joke on yourself because, at least in those days,
you had a sense of humor.  You appreciated the irony that a
skeptical case against UFOs is being made from a house named
after (or once owned by?) one of history's more prominent
occultists.  If I lived in Menzel, Minnesota, and you made a
crack about that, I'd laugh with you, not take offense.  Maybe
the real issue is this: what in hell ever possessed our British
friends to name their houses?

 >I'm sure that most people on this lists are getting a bored with
 >this exchange as I am, so I'll call it quits now, and allow you
 >to claim victory over the pelicanists.

Is this your idea of going out on a grace note? I hope not; I
think better of you. A victory over pelicanists and $5.50 will
get me a six-pack of Leinenkugel's any day.

In any event: relax, my friend.  It's only ufology. It's not as
if it's something important.

Cordially,

Jerry Clark










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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Aug > Aug 27

                              Re: UFO Ridicule

From: Jenny Randles <nufon@currantbun.com>
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1999 15:09:13 +0100
Fwd Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1999 21:36:32 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO Ridicule


 >From: Bill Weber <koran@cchat.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
 >Subject: Re: UFO Ridicule
 >Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 10:02:14 -0400

 >Hi, Jenny,

 >You say,

 >>Firstly, I do not think most UK skeptics have adopted an
 >>anti-ETH position because of any sinister reason. Motives
 >>possibly at work tend to operate unconsciously and go
 >>unrecognised by all sides here. Certainly there will be
 >>complicating factors because we are all human beings and we will
 >>behave in unpredictable ways not like machines.

 >Then you state,

 >>But I am equally certain that the real bottom line is the
 >>evidence. Those of us who are not overt ETH supporters have
 >>indeed reached that stance through the evidence and its
 >>blatantly obvious conflicting nature.

 >Really?  I don't get it.  After weeks of debate in which the
 >opponents clearly demonstrate a better knowledge of both
 >pelicans _and_ hot air balloons than do the proponents, and also
 >clearly show how neither explanation fit the facts of the cases
 >they purport to explain, you still think this kind of skepticism
 >is based on evidence?


Slow down a bit. Please dont start seeing things I do not
intend. When did I defend pelicans as the cause of the Ken
Arnold case? I have said from the word go that I did not believe
that answer and, after a couple days of thought, if you recall,
weeks and weeks ago, that I had yet to see evidence that
persuaded me Socorro was a balloon.

I was answering a question about the reasons behind the inherent
scepticism in Britain and doing so from a general perspective
not defending any individual or any argument about a particular
case.

This was an attempt to explain the difference of approach here
and in the US and not a defence of people and cases that I never
even mentioned. It involves philosophy, psychology, subconscious
motives and cannot ever be clear cut. But I do think that
perception of the evidence (as it is interepreted) is the
primary factor. That is my experience anyhow - and it is
obviously not universally applicable as nothing ever can be to
human beings.

 >With that kind of reasoning, who needs evidence?

 >With that rationale, these witnesses obviously can't
 >perceive the difference between a pelican and a passing freight
 >train, and neither can any other witness.

 >Anything described as "big" is an elephant, and anything with
 >lights is an airplane.

 >And exactly what is a "not overt ETH supporter?"  How would they
 >view evidence differently than a "not overt PSH supporter," for
 >instance?

As I repeat this is not about individual cases its about a
philosophy of approach to ufology. In the UK this tends to be
along the lines of - most sightings prove to be IFOs so lets
work on the assumption we might find one here, if we do and it
makes sense, say so, if we dont then the case stays a UFO. I
dont see anything wrong with that as a philosophy but it is how
people approach ufology here. Thats all I was saying.

As for overt support of the ETH I mean simply that it is not
regarded as the only alternative to a case always being solved
in mundane terms. If its a reasonable option for a case, fine,
consider it. But as it requires the acceptance of unproven
things it should not be a first resort - merely a possibility -
as is true of several other theories, of course. My support for
the ETH is qualified as I have noted on this list in my previous
descriptions.

I think it likely there are other intelligences involved in some
encounters. I am less convinced they necessarily come from
another star system and arrive in spaceships. That is what I
regard as support for the ETH in an overt manner. My support for
the ETH is somewhat more subtle but is not nil.


 >Does a "not overt ETH supporter" believe in ETH in spite of lack
 >of evidence?


Sorry, I am confused. The ETH is a theory. Whether you consider
the evidence supports it or not (and you then support it overtly
- ie openly and in its traditional form - or you do so in a more
subtle and understated fashion) is down to individual
interpretation of that evidence. To me the evidence quite
clearly points towards the a conflict of idealogies and is not
firmly supportative of one reality above another (partly I
suspect because there is more than one type of UFO in the
equation). But I am quite happy to accept the data points others
somewhere else and that either or neither of us might be right.


 >Do you believe there is no evidence to support ETH?


I did not say that at all if you read my message.

 >I'm confused. <G>


Join the club!

Best wishes,

Jenny






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   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Aug > Aug 27

                      Re: 'New?' FBI memo about Roswell

From: James Bond Johnson <JBONJO@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1999 10:31:07 EDT
Fwd Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1999 22:24:00 -0400
Subject: Re: 'New?' FBI memo about Roswell


 >From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@aol.com>
 >Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 18:30:30 EDT
 >Subject: Re: 'New?' FBI memo about Roswell
 >To: updates@globalserve.net

As Project Director for RPIT (Roswell Photo Interpretation
Team), I would like to take this opportunity to thank David
Rudiak for all the assistance he has provided to RPIT during the
past year. He has time and again dug through his extensive
newspaper clipping files of the Roswell Event to provide another
"angle" on this very confused story, which now rivals the Battle
of the Little Big Horn, a few years earlier, for reporting
errors.

 >>From: Neil Morris <neil@adm1.ph.man.ac.uk>
 >>Date: Sun, 22 Aug 1999 10:03:35 -0700
 >>Fwd Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 13:58:02 -0400
 >>Subject: Re: 'New?' FBI memo about Roswell

 >>FWIW as I read it, it's _not_ the cover story but a strong hint
 >>as to what _actually_ happened that evening.

 >>It does _totally_ support the "Cover Story" scenario  because of
 >>the facts given being  _totally_ out of place in the timeline in
 >>view of what was else being _fed_ to the news media that night.

 >>This _URGENT_ teletype was sent out at 6:17pm FW time YET at
 >>_5:30pm_ FW time, 45mins _before_, MAJ Kirton of the
 >>Intelligence Office of the FWAAF was informing a reporter for
 >>the Dallas Morning News that the debris was that of a High
 >>Altitude Weather Balloon, nothing to make a fuss over, no need
 >>to fly it on to WF, end of story. Please also note this was 1hr
 >>_before_ Irving Newton's ID of the debris was sent out on the AP
 >>wire (6:30pm FW) AND 30 mins _before_ Newton even came ON
 >>DUTY (6:00pm FW).

 >>To cap it all Kirton was identified as the AF contact who gave
 >>the information in the teletype to the FBI Dallas office,
 >>presumably shortly before the teletype was sent, after all it
 >>was marked URGENT, and I doubt the FBI would sit on this info
 >>for very long. So, 5:30pm the debris was a mundane Weather
 >>Balloon for the press, and stopping at Fort Worth AAF yet for
 >>the FBI at approx 6:00pm AND reported by the self same MAJ Kirton
 >>"telephonic conversation" with the techie's at WF "had not borne
 >>out that belief" i.e., it _wasn't_ 'mundane debris' and it _was_
 >>being flown on to Wright Field! Yet at 6:30pm on the AP Wire,
 >>Irving Newton says again it's a mundane Weather Balloon. Later
 >>that evening, radio reporter Joe Wilson in Chicago stated he had
 >>spoken shortly before the broadcast with officials at Wright
 >>Field and they were _still_ _awaiting_ the debris arrival.
 >>Perhaps FWAAF hadn't told them it was just a weather balloon and
 >>wouldn't be coming?.

 >>Thomas Dubose plainly stated the Weather Balloon story was a
 >>cover given under order of Gen McMullen to "get the press off
 >>the AF's back", this single piece of evidence, the FBI teletype,
 >>when viewed in context with all the other information coming out
 >>of the AF for public consumption seems clearly to say that is
 >>_exactly_ what happened.

 >>There's lots'a holes in the Fort Worth end of Roswell and yet
 >>still more to come out.

 >Neil,

 >Thanks for the brief timeline, reiterating critical times in the
 >development of the cover story.  I don't think many people
 >understand just how quickly the weather balloon cover story
 >developed.  It was being put out by Ramey and Kirton well before
 >Irving Newton ever laid eyes on the wreckage in Gen. Ramey's
 >office and gave it an official identification.  It went out
 >before James Bond Johnson showed up to take his pictures.

 >Here are some more times to ponder, everything given FW time.
 >The Roswell press release announcing the recovery of a crashed
 >disk went out at 3:26 pm over the AP wire.

This was the AP flash that my Fort Worth Star-Telegram city
editor, Cullum Greene, was responding to when he dispatched me
about 3:30 p.m. to go to Fort Worth Army Air Field and get
photos of a crashed flying saucer that was being flown from
Roswell.

<snip>

 >What exactly Ramey said while on the phone differs in various
 >news stories.  One from New York PM has Ramey saying he had seen
 >it, explicitly identifying the debris as the remains of a
 >weather balloon and radar reflector, adding it was high level
 >stuff and he hadn't let anybody see or photograph it yet.  He
 >would later bring in a weather officer for a look. So once again
 >Ramey was calling it a weather balloon/radar reflector well
 >before Irving Newton appeared and also before J.B. Johnson.

David and I have discussed this point before and we do not agree
of this detail. In his scenario he has me arriving at Ramey's
office after Ramey had identified the debris as a "weather
device." All the recollections that I have and the reconstructed
evidence that has been made available to RPIT does not concur.
All these details will be discussed when RPIT publishes its
first annual report shortly. Suffice it to say at this point
throughout my two and a half hours personal involvement with the
Roswell Event there was no mention of a "weather balloon" or
"weather device" by anyone. When I left the Star-Telegram around
6 p.m. on July 8, 1947, the "flying saucer" story was still very
much alive!

 >The Washington Post and other newspapers had Ramey declaring
 >that it looked something like a box-kite covered with foil and
 >was nothing to get excited about.  Then he added it was in his
 >office but he hadn't seen it yet.  He allegedly went to take a
 >look, then called back to say that it appeared to be 25 feet
 >across!  It seems Ramey simply made this up, since there is
 >nothing in the photos to remotely suggest such a dimension.  If
 >he made up the description, it strongly suggests nothing was
 >there yet.

 >Now let's move on to 4:53 pm, when an AP bulletin, with a
 >Washington dateline, had Ramey declaring that "the disk" HAD
 >been sent on to Wright Field.  Regardless of whether the debris
 >had or had not already been forwarded to Wright, this was the
 >first wire service story that explicitly mentioned Ramey's
 >involvement.  Previously there had been only vague AAF
 >statements (such as in the original Roswell press release) about
 >the disk being forwarded to unidentified "higher headquarters."

 >Back in FW, according to J. B. Johnson, his editor had been
 >following the story by teletype.  Therefore, 4:53 would mark the
 >time when the editor would first learn of the local angle and
 >know to dispatch a reporter to the base to cover the story.

Rudiak has forgotten that I was dispatched to FWAAF based on the
3:26 p.m. AP flash.

 >Johnson says it would have taken about half an hour to drive
 >across town to the base, so this first places him in Ramey's
 >office around 5:30.

No, I arrived at General Ramey's office shortly after 4 p.m. and
departed there shortly after 4;30 p.m., arriving back at the
Star-Telegram just after 5 p.m. That time has been clearly
identified since I can clearly recall that there was concern
that the photo retouching artist had just left for home at 5
p.m. and had to be recalled, causing a delay in the paper being
able to run the photos. As it happened, my photos of
Ramey/Dubose and Marcel did not run until the midnight edition,
even though there was coverage from the "Bulldog" (street sales)
Edition.

 >Note, this is the same time Ramey's Intel officer Major Kirton
 >is telling the Dallas Morning News that's it's nothing but a
 >weather balloon and radar target.  The flight to Wright Field
 >had been canceled, he tells them (a falsehood also repeated by
 >Ramey initially and an unidentified FW public information
 >officer according to other news stories). At around the same
 >time, Kirton was also apparently talking to the Dallas FBI
 >office.  He gave them another story, as reflected in the FBI
 >telegram of 6:17 pm.  Instead of being canceled, the "disc and
 >balloon" were "being transported to Wright Field by special
 >plane for examination."

 >Well, then, if the "disc and balloon" was already on its way to
 >Wright Field (as noted also in the 4:53 news bulletin citing
 >Ramey himself), what the hell was in Ramey's office for Newton
 >to soon identify?  Perhaps substituted debris?

 From the timeline developed through the diligent work of RPIT
for the past 14 months there would have been no opportunity for
any "switch" of debris. It is clear that whatever Marcel brought
to Fort Worth from Roswell on the B-29 was what was opened while
I was in General Ramey's office just prior to the photo session.

 >Johnson was there for about 20 minutes, took his photos, and
 >left shortly before 6:00.

Again, Rudiak is in error on these facts.

 >Irving Newton came on duty at 6:00
 >and was immediately ordered to Ramey's office.  He IDed the
 >debris, had his picture taken by photographer unknown, and then
 >left quickly to return to his unmanned weather post.  At 6:30
 >was the AP bulletin announcing Newton's identification, though
 >hinted at earlier at 6:03 in another AP bulletin that came out
 >of Washington, saying it might be a meteorological device.  So,
 >before Newton even had a chance to ID the object, the Pentagon
 >was apparently also putting out the weather balloon story.

 >When did Marcel actually get to FW?  That is still uncertain.
 >In some newspaper stories, the AAF apparently claimed that
 >Marcel had left Roswell at 10:00 am.

In the series of articles in the Star-Telegram covering this
breaking story, the first article in the first and second
editions mentioned that Marcel had left Roswell at 10:00 am.
However, this account was deleted in the later editions of the
morning paper. This would have been corrected by an AAF
spokesman phoning the city desk or an AP correction.

 >This time was obviously
 >bogus, since that would have placed Marcel at FW no later than
 >noon.  Marcel's recollection was that when he first got to
 >Ramey's office with debris samples, Ramey wasn't there, but
 >arrived soon after.  The debris swap, photos, and speaking to
 >reporters

The "reporters" folklore continues to be repeated. There has
_never_ been _any_ reporter other than myself known to have been
in Ramey's office on July 8, 1947, happened a short time later.
Marcel was not in Ramey's office for 5 or 6 hours.

This is an important point that should not be overlooked.

 >There is also the testimony of Robert Porter, who was on the
 >plane with Marcel.  When they got to FW, the crew left to get
 >some food.  When they got back, they were told that the debris
 >on the plane had been transferred to another transport plane and
 >shipped to Wright Field.  They were also told that it was a
 >weather balloon.  Again, noonish or early afternoon was too soon
 >for this to happen.  It more likely happened close to the 4:53
 >announcement of the disk being shipped on to Wright Field.

 >Marcel recalled being ordered to FW to see Ramey in the morning,
 >but not leaving until the afternoon.  Note, it would take time
 >to properly prep and load a B-29 for flight.  There are also
 >indications in his testimony of him still being in Roswell when
 >the crashed disk story first hit the wire at 3:26 FW time.  He
 >said he was at Roswell at the time of Haut's press release
 >(though confused about the time, which he placed the previous
 >night) and, like others, also talked about trying to field
 >reporters' inquiries, but not being able to say anything.  He
 >also spoke of how a reporter apparently went to his home and his
 >wife referring the reporter to Col. Blanchard at the base.

 >This suggests that he left for FW soon after the press release,
 >probably at around the same time the press was being told Col.
 >Blanchard had gone on leave and was unavailable for comment.
 >According to witness Sgt. Robert Shirkey, Blanchard accompanied
 >Marcel to the plane.  And according to Robert Porter, the plane
 >was personally piloted by the Roswell Deputy C/O, Lt. Col. Payne
 >Jennings, the guy supposedly taking over from Blanchard on his
 >leave.  This was obviously mighty important balloon debris!

 >A B-29 could make the 400 mile flight in under an hour and a
 >half, maybe even an hour and a quarter, placing Marcel in FW at
 >around 5:00,

The RPIT timeline places Major Marcel arriving in Fort Worth
between 3:30 and 4 p.m. I arrived in Ramey's office just after 4
p.m. while the debris was being unpacked. General Ramey was out
of his office but was expected back momentarily. I unpacked one
package and was "posing" the debris trying desperately to make
an interesting shot out of the junk when Ramey returned to his
office. The items that I unpacked appear to include some of the
beams that contain the mysterious glyphs. I hurriedly placed
them on top of the pile of rubble on Ramey's carpet as the
general entered his office and they can be seen in the
foreground of my photos. At least two unopened packages are
clearly to be seen in the photos. Then I posed Ramey for one
setup (two shots) and then Ramey/Dubose for one setup examining
the debris. The final setup was of Major Marcel. It always has
been my belief that General Ramey had not seen the debris before
the moments when he was photographed between 4 and 4:30 p.m. on
July 8, 1947.

 >close to the 4:53 bulletin time with Ramey saying
 >it had been forwarded to Wright Field.  Marcel went immediately
 >to Ramey's office, but Ramey wasn't there.  He may still have
 >been talking to some reporters or Washington on the phone, as
 >reported by the newspapers, or dealing with the message he had
 >in his hand when finally photographed by Johnson.  But soon he
 >came in.  Marcel showed him the debris samples.  They went to
 >the map room.  When they come back, the debris Marcel brought
 >had been swapped with that of a weather balloon.

This is the Hollywood version of the Roswell Incident. Too bad
they didn't have Spielberg and Lucas and their set decorators to
quickly concoct an exotic craft and X-files set. It sure would
have made it easier for me to get some good photographs!

 >Johnson was
 >now there, took his pictures, and so on.

 >Under this scenario, any description about the debris that Ramey
 >made prior to Marcel's arrival or claims that he had seen it
 >were bogus.  I think this explains the strange statement by
 >Ramey, reported by the Washington Post and elsewhere, of going
 >to take a look at the debris in his office, and then saying it
 >was 25 feet across.

I can definitely confirm that Ramey did not enter his office and
then leave again while I was there.

 >There was simply nothing there yet for
 >Ramey to look at.  It had been decided that a weather balloon
 >was going to be the cover story, so Ramey just had to give vague
 >descriptions to the press until the weather balloon was finally
 >brought to his office.

It seems quite unusual that General Ramey would have been
talking by phone with the press from some place other than his
office while the Roswell debris was being unpacked in his
office. If he had been concocting some "cover story" prior to
the photo session it logically would have taken place in his
large office where his staff could assist him. RPIT is convinced
that Ramey was quite eager to read the message that he held --
and was unfolding -- all during the photo shoot and that is why
he obviously was reading this message in the final shot. There
is reason to believe that the Ramey Message with its reference
to the "VICTIMS" being brought to Fort Worth also contained
orders for Ramey to issue the "weather balloon" cover story.
Having worked closely with generals for most of the years that I
was connected with the military I am convinced that Ramey would
not have made such a career-endangering announcement without
clear written orders for such.

 >Ramey's operations officer, Col. John Ryan, had already hinted
 >to the press the day before that weather balloon radar targets
 >were a likely explanation for the flying disk reports.

I knew Colonel John Ryan. I flew with him as he piloted a B-29
that crisscrossed the country as lead plane of an air armada of
B-29s for many hours on Armed Forces Day a few days after the
Roswell Incident. I cannot imagine him voluntarily being a press
spokesman without specific orders from General Ramey. That was
not his job and this just was not done in 1947. As a Marine
Corps public information officer during the Korean War just a
few years later I recall that our senior officers could not make
a speech or give any interview without it being cleared by our
office. I never recall any senior officer "hinting" to the press
about anything during that period. They were enjoying their jobs
too much to take such a risk!

 >This also coincided with a photo of the Circleville, Ohio crashed
 >radar target appearing on the front page of the FW Star Telegram
 >the same day.

It has been speculated that this issue of the Star-Telegram well
could have been lying on General Ramey's desk when a cover for
the Roswell Event was being discussed and that this photo --
printed at the top of the front page -- could have sparked the
idea for the "weather device" cover. Makes sense to me.

 >It looks to me like this cover story could have
 >been in the works for a full day.  The Army and Navy then
 >followed up with several weather balloon and radar target
 >demonstrations in succeeding days as part of a flying saucer
 >debunking campaign, as explicitly mentioned by United Press in
 >the lead sentence of their Roswell story on July 9.  (A year
 >later, the Air Force likewise tried to use a radar target as the
 >"explanation" for the famous Chiles-Whitted airline pilot
 >sighting.)

 >The following year, Ryan replaced Blanchard at Roswell.  Ryan
 >eventually became the AF Chief of Staff and Chairman of the
 >Joint Chiefs (his son Michael is the current AF C of S).  Ryan,
 >Blanchard, and Ramey all gave Marcel sterling recommendations a
 >year later when he was being transferred to higher intelligence
 >work.  Blanchard said he was "exceptionally well qualified" and
 >"highly reliable."  Both Ryan and Ramey called Marcel
 >"outstanding."  Ramey thought him command officer material.  The
 >SAC made him Chief of some sort of foreign air intelligence
 >division (actually termed "Alien Capabilities" -- no kidding),
 >what they called a "key" position.  Does this sound like
 >somebody who misidentified a balloon and embarrassed his
 >superiors?

Major Marcel was pilloried only in the Hollywood version of
"Roswell!"







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Aug > Aug 27

                            Re: Filer's Files #34

From: George  A.  Filer <Majorstar@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1999 11:07:55 EDT
Fwd Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1999 22:47:06 -0400
Subject: Re: Filer's Files #34


Filer's Files #34 -- 1999, MUFON Skywatch Investigations
George  A.  Filer,   Director, Mutual UFO Network Eastern
August 27, 1999,   Majorstar@aol.com  (609) 654-0020

EXELLENT SIGHTINGS INCREASE WORLDWIDE IN JULY AND AUGUST

NEW JERSEY

MARMORA - Richard Baker writes that he sighted a strange disc
shaped craft on August 23, 1999, while taking out the garbage.
He writes that, the object flew over me at 8:47 PM.  As soon as
I started staring at it, the object vanished.  The sighting
lasted only a few seconds, but on either side of the basic disk
were two short wings with pods at the ends.  Marmora is located
twenty miles south east of Atlantic City. Thanks to Richard
Baker.

PHILLIPSBURG -- On August 9, 1999, a rocket like object was
sighted in the southwest sky over nearby Pennsylvania.  The
witness using binoculars saw a rocket or missile shaped object
shoot straight up until lost from view.  Thanks to Peter
Davenport Director National UFO Reporting Center (NUFORC) Note:
This report is reminiscent of a surface to air missile launch.


PENNSYLVANIA FLYING TRIANGLES AND RECTANGLE

NINEVEH -- Peter B. Davenport, Director NUFORC, sent the
following sightings.

On August 18, 1999, a married couple was driving south on Route
18, three miles north of Nineveh near Pittsburgh at 10:55 PM.
As their car rounded a bend in the highway, both the husband and
wife suddenly became aware of a strange cluster of lights not
too far ahead of them.  The lights were an estimated 100 feet
above the ground, and not more than 125 feet away from them.
They stopped the car and exited the vehicle to inspect the
lights more closely.  They saw two very large, distinctively
triangular shaped UFOs, each of which they estimated to be 100
feet in width.  The craft seemed suspended virtually motionless
above the ground.  The objects exhibited red, blue, and white
lights.  The front of portion of the craft had prominent
transparent windows.  The witnesses estimated the dimension of
the windows as two by three feet.  They could see the lighted
interiors of the craft through the windows.  Both witnesses
stood and watched the craft for 60 seconds as the objects
drifted in unwavering formation slowly to the north.  The craft
passed over a small hill and disappeared.

LANCASTER COUNTY - A large rectangular craft was reported July
23, 1999, resting on the ground at 11:31 PM.  The craft was
approximately 150 feet long and 50 feet wide with windows and
antenna.  The witness stated, "About midnight I decided to begin
driving back to Philadelphia from my aunt's house in rural
Lancaster County.  When I went out side to leave, I saw a huge
object sitting in a field directly across from her front door.
It was as big as a foot ball field judging by the nearby trees.
The craft lit up like daylight with lights all around the bottom
and windows with bright bluish/white light inside.  At first I
thought someone had put up a large 'double wide' mobile home in
the couple hours I was visiting my aunt.  Then I realized the
object was larger than any mobile home, and would be as large as
four of these put end to end.  I also noticed a number of
antennas and other 'garbage' sticking and jutting out from the
top and sides.  I ran back inside.  My aunt came out and was a
bit shaken by all this.  I was pretty scared too, but I was
intrigued.  It was just weird.  We watched for ten minutes as
the craft began making a very low sound.  Like a buzzing wire
that isn't plugged into the stereo correctly, but with more
variation in pitch and allot deeper.  You could feel the
vibration in the pit of your stomach and my aunt felt sick.  The
craft then began to lift off the ground and turn.  I could
clearly see it was a rectangle as it slowly turned its narrower
side towards us.  The craft turned off some of its lights and
began moving steadily upward in an awkward wobbling motion,
almost as if it was too heavy to support its own weight. We were
not that far away when the sound became more intense.  My aunt
went back inside for fear that the craft might crash.  It
managed to lift off vertically and turn itself 90 degrees after
reaching about three times the height of the tops of the trees.
Then for about a 25 to 45 seconds it began shaking wildly.  It
began to accelerate like the space shuttle, but only with that
low humming sound not a rocket's roar.  After it started
shooting upwards it was nearly out of sight within 10 minutes,
becoming nothing more than a slowly moving star.  I called the
local TV station and they knew nothing about it and suggested I
call the sheriff's department.  I did and they said they had a
couple reports of odd lights in the sky and they passed them to
MUFON.  Afterwards, I was firmly shocked.  I have never believed
in this stuff until now and I feel we are about to be taken
over.  I got a very 'sinister' feeling from that object.  Like
it was scouting for a place to set up operations in the future
or something.  "I felt it was giant processing center."

HUNTINGDON VALLEY -- On July 23, 1999, a derby shaped disk craft
was observed traveling west-to east at 11:12 PM.  The UFO was an
illuminated silver object with crystal bright lights under the
craft.  A laser beam of light was projected from the rear of the
craft scanning the ground.  The object made no sound.  Thanks
to: Peter B. Davenport, Director NUFORC, www.ufocenter.com.

PAOLI -- Jimmy Sullivan reports that on August 11, 1999, "My
sister and I saw a spotlight with red lights surrounding an
amber light at 9:37 PM."  It was not moving.  So, I went inside
to get my UFO book.  I came back in about ten seconds and it was
gone.  I still remember the color of the lights and I remembered
the spotlight.  The colors matched what the book showed. That is
how I found out it was a UFO.  Thanks to Dave Ledger, UFO
Scotland

GIANT DISC OVER VIRGINIA

ROCKY MOUNT - On August 1, 1999, a giant disc UFO was seen four
miles southeast of Rocky Mount at 3:45 PM.  The disc was a giant
craft well over 100 feet in diameter.  It tilted slightly down
toward its direction of travel.  We were going north on a county
road toward Route 619, when the craft caught my attention.  It
was located a mile east of my position over or near the county
landfill.  At first I thought it was a helicopter as I saw it
out of the corner of my eye.  I immediately stopped my car and
got out and looked directly at it.  I got back in the car
screaming at my partner to wake up and look at this thing.  I
backed up the car, spinning its wheels so we could chase the
craft.  I could tell that it was not a helicopter.  The UFO Was
easily bigger than any aircraft that I have ever seen.  It had
two distinct lines running around the edges with large lights or
windows running between the lines.  It had a tarnished silver
color to it and appeared to glow.  It made no sound as it moved
silently north behind the trees.  The trees did not move as the
craft moved toward them.  The air was completely still.  You
could hear traffic coming north on Route 220.  After determining
that this thing could definitely hear me and knowing that it
could see me, I left the county at a high rate of speed and
didn't look back.  Thanks to Peter Davenport at the National
Reporting Center. www.ufocenter.com.


OHIO DISC AND FLYING TRIANGLE

DAYTON -- Four individuals standing on a rooftop at 11:00 PM on
Tuesday, August 17, 1999, witnessed a "large" distinctly
triangular object.  Orange light radiated from its edges.  It
streaked from west to east, suddenly turning to the south, and
disappeared.

RAVENNA - Radio station WNIR FM 100.1 FM reported the sighting
of a disc shaped object on July 24, 1999.  Reportedly, the
witness saw a disc 200 feet above him that sprayed a cool clear
liquid on him.  He was taken to Robinson Memorial Hospital (330
297-0811) where nurses cleaned him up.  The FBI allegedly took
his cloths/cleaning rags from the hospital.  A caller to the
station claims he admitted his daughter a 12:18 AM and saw the
FBI with truck loading the bags. Both the hospital and the FBI
deny the story.  Other callers claim to have seen the UFO. An
ultra light plane goes down in area and an Army helicopter made
an emergency landing. Ravenna Arsenal is in the vicinity.
Thanks to Peter Davenport, Director NUFORC.


INDIANA FLYING TRIANGLE

INDIANAPOLIS - On August 6, 1999, Carl M. an amateur astronomer
was watching for meteors at 1:37 AM.  He had been looking toward
the northeast sitting in his favorite semi-reclining
'star-gazing-chair' in preparation for the Perseid Meteor Shower
display expected on the 12th.  Suddenly, he detected a movement
in the southern part of the sky.  Initially he assumed that it
was nothing more than a dark-colored, low-flying bird whose
underbelly was being illuminated by light-glow from the city.
He noticed a gray spot behind it and to one side.  The object
continued to move rapidly in a level south-to-north trajectory
and soon came into full view.  Carl saw a dull-black
triangular-shaped craft, with relatively straight equal-length
sides.  The craft had a solid-mass-body and gray spots on its
tips.  Carl estimated the craft to be about the length of a
16-wheel-semi-truck with attached box-trailer; but, only 4-6
feet high.  As the object passed 50 feet above just over the
trees, it was illuminated by bright lights from the car wash a
block away.  Carl could clearly see that the craft was emitting
no light; and its skin appeared smooth with no visible windows,
bulges, appendages or propulsion outlets.  There were not any
vapor trails.  The object continued in a northerly direction at
an estimated 100 MPH, based upon his recollection of the car
racing at the Indy-oval.  Carl stated that the most striking
aspect of the whole 10 second experience was that there was
absolutely no sound or turbulence associated with the craft.  If
he had not been sky watching at the time and that the city
lights provided illumination; he definitely would not have known
that the object had passed.  Further, there were 5 dogs in his
house and none of them sounded any kind of alarm during the
incident.  They would have done so had any ordinary object come
within such close proximity!  Carl says the object should have
passed over I-65 at the Raymond Street Exit.  Thanks to Dave
Hagemeister NACOMM, 9908inin@nacomm.org.


CHICAGO, ILLINOIS STRANGE DISAPPEARANCE UPDATE

A father and two young children went sailing on Lake Michigan on
August 14, 1999.  They had been missing since then.  Their
sailboat was found after an intensive air and sea search
twenty-five miles northeast of Chicago without its passengers.
The craft was still in good condition with the main mast stowed.
Jeff Sanio writes that two bodies have been found, and the
search for the third person has been called off.

LAKE MICHIGAN -- In a possibly related sighting also on August
14, 1999, Fergus Moffat reports he saw a huge gold square object
on Lake Michigan.  This object was intensely bright and looked
like it might have been an UFO that crashed into the lake.  My
brother and I saw the object on the way to a tennis match.
After the match we looked for it on the lake, but it had
disappeared.  Thanks to Fergus Moffat, fergusmoff@hotmail.com.


NEW MEXICO

ALBUQUERQUE -- Larry Clark reports that on June 10, 1999, about
10:30 PM three witnesses were driving west on I-40.  Their
speaker states, "My fiance, my daughter and I were looking at
the millions of stars, when I noticed two intensely bright stars
in the northern sky about 25 degrees up from the horizon."  But,
they were just too bright for regular stars.  I asked my fiancee
to pull over.  We got out the binoculars to get a better look.
Just intensely bright, blue light with an "aura" around them was
all we could see.  Suddenly, the light on the left shot off
toward the west at a mind-numbing speed, dipped down a bit, back
up and just STOPPED again in the sky.  Then the light on the
right started to "mosey" toward the east.  We drove like crazy
to try and catch it.  The interstate was straight at this point
and another light "blinked" on right in front us in the sky and
started to move slowly toward the light which had moved west.
That really got our attention!!  It finally just went away.  We
drove for about 1/2 hour trying to catch up to the light that
had darted off and never even got close.  We were doing about 80
mph.  It was still in the sky where it stopped.  We got to a
little town and lost it in the trees and town lights. Thanks to
Larry Clark, lclark@ibm.net and Jdoty333@aol.com


WASHINGTON

WENATCHEEA - The witness who has worked as an aircraft inspector
in Washington State for approximately thirty years.  On the
night of Wednesday, August 18, 1999, near Grouse Tail Rock,
located on the Columbia River near Wenatchee, WA, he witnessed
three lights, oriented in a triangular pattern drift over in the
night sky.  It appeared to the witness to be a solid object,
since the stars disappeared behind it as it moved across the
sky.  He witnessed the object for approximately 10 seconds.
Many other reports for August 1999 are posted at
www.ufocenter.com.  Thanks to:  Peter B. Davenport, Director,
NUFORC


AUSTRALIAN FLYING FERRIS WHEEL

LOGAN VILLAGE - On August 8, 1999, six witnesses sighted a UFO
that looked like a Ferris Wheel 42 kilometers from Brisbane City
at 9:15 PM. The object was the size of 50 cent piece at arm's
length.  Jennifer walked outside and noticed her neighbor
looking up at an object in the sky.  The object had two rings of
lights fast moving lights.  One ring rotated clock wise the
other going anti-clock wise.  It was beautiful to look at. I ran
inside and got my sister and my husband and they watched it as
well.  It was amazing! One ring of lights moved away from the
other ring of lights and then it moved back again.  The
witnesses called several TV stations but they were not
interested.  Four residents of Hickory St. Marsden also reported
seeing the UFO Ferris wheel.   (1) Witness Miss Sharn J called
the Hotline to ask if anyone had seen strange lights in the sky
on Saturday night around 8:50 PM.  Sharn said: "It was awesome
the size of a  foot ball field!"  It had two rows of lights
turning in opposite directions.  The object was laying on its
side, it reminded me of Close Encounters the movie and do you
know not one of us was scared of it "not at all" I was so
excited.  I ran over to my neighbor who was outside and asked
him to look up "can you see what I see" he looked and ran inside
telling me he was going to call someone. He looked really
scared!  My friends and I went over to the park to get a clearer
look.  It was so cold but no one wanted to go inside to get our
jackets we didn't want to miss a moment of it.  We could see the
reflection of the lights on the clouds. Thanks to Keith
Basterfield Network http://www.fan.net.au/~tkbnetw/new and Diane
Harrison  Co-Director The Australian UFO Research Network
Australian Skywatch Director.


JAPANESE F-4 MISSING AFTER CHASING UNIDENTIFIED AIRCRAFT

KYUSHU - (AP) A Japanese fighter jet that had been sent to
intercept an unidentified object off Japan's southern coast was
missing Sunday, August 15, 1999, the Defense Agency said Sunday.
The jet was one of two F-4EJ fighters dispatched early Sunday
from an air base in Nyutabaru after an unidentified plane was
spotted by radar at 1226 GMT, the agency said.  The aircraft,
manned by two crew members, lost radio contact with its consort
plane at 5:15 a.m. local time about 50 miles off Fukue Island
and remained missing Sunday evening, agency spokesman Isoji
Ikeda said. The island is about 680 miles from Tokyo off the
coast of Kyushu, Japan's southernmost main island.  Visibility
was low and the weather was bad when the jet went missing, the
agency said.  The crew had not made visual contact with the
plane before they disappeared and did not confirm the
nationality or type of aircraft, the spokesman said. The agency
had no information on the origin of the plane that the pair of
jets had gone to intercept, the spokesman said. Thanks to UFO
Research  http://home.fuse.net/ufo/  Editor's Note: UFOs have
often been chased off the coast of Japan, and several fighter
aircraft have been lost in these operations.


TIBET

On August 24, 1999, I received the following e-mail from Lois
who writes.  "I was in Tibet last week driving to the airport at
3:30 AM and the driver said UFO and pointed to the sky.  I saw a
circular object pretty far up that had many white lights
underneath it with red lights around it.  It looked like a sign
from Las Vegas. It hovered above for about 20 minutes and then
disappeared. The Tibetan taxi driver in very poor English led me
to believe that he had seen 5 UFO's.  I couldn't understand what
else he said.  I know this was not a plane or helicopter. Thanks
to LoisSB.


UNITED KINGDOM UFO FLEET

KENT -- Between fifty and sixty residents of Ayelsham, a small
town near Dover about 80 miles southeast of London spotted "an
armada" of bright silvery high-flying UFOs on Sunday, August 1,
1999.  One witness had a camcorder handy and shot several
minutes of footage.  The video shows "many of these objects
clearly visible" and "also shows an aircraft with anti-collision
light passing underneath them, indicating that the objects were
at a very high altitude."  "The eyewitnesses claim that all the
participants in this 'armada' were multicolored and reflective."
"The videotape shows only silver-colored objects in no
discernible pattern, crossing from north to south in slow
procession, although there were two other objects lagging behind
and seemed to accelerate to catch up with the main group." On
Monday, August 2, 1999, the video was aired on a local TV news
broadcast in Dover.  The news team interviewed British Ufologist
Timothy J. Good."  A meteorologist interviewed for the broadcast
explained that the UFOs may have been "helium-filled balloons
let off from Maidstone." Thanks to UFO Roundup 8/24/99, Editor
Joe Trainor and Jerry Anderson


FLYING TRIANGLE UFO OVER BRAZIL

SAO PAULO -- On August 21, 1999, Mr. Roberto Rabelo saw a huge
UFO over the city of Cubatao, So Paulo. He reported that when
he arrived at the Water Treatment Station, there were three
other witnesses watching the phenomenon.  "It was around 12:58
AM, when I looked to the north and saw the UFO at a low
altitude."  "One of the operators said that it could be a
short-circuit in a nearby energy tower.  We climbed the tower
and realized that it was not a conventional aircraft.  "The UFO
was higher!"  "The UFO had a red light on top and three other
red lights below it, in a triangular shape.  The lights did not
blink.  Seconds later, between the red lights, there were
hundreds of white flashes!  Then all disappeared. "I estimate
that the UFO was bigger than a soccer field." Once again the UFO
appeared, but this time when the flashing lights turned off,
another object like a yellow ball came out.  The UFO appeared
again for a third time, and we were able to see a "triangular
shadow" behind it.  The sighting lasted for 20 minutes.  Thanks
to THIAGO LUIZ TICCHETTI Director of the Publication Department
and Specialized Translation http://www.ebe-et.com.br


JENNY RANDLES ON ABDUCTIONS (PART 2) will be carried next week.


U.S. GOVERNMENT UFO PROOF RELEASED: Audio tapes of a genuine UFO
Alert at Edwards Air Force base and studied by the Foreign
Technology Division at Wright Patterson Air Force Base, are now
available for distribution to the public.  Lunar Astronaut Dr.
Edgar Mitchell was at Edwards the night the UFO chase occurred.
The 6th person to walk on the moon said, "The night it happened
I investigated it myself and this was a real event."  Sam
Sherman's audio documentary tape called THE EDWARDS AIR FORCE
BASE ENCOUNTER on the night of October 7, 1965, uses the actual
voice recordings provided by the Air Force.  During this event
12 high tech luminous UFOs invade secure air space and came down
low over the runways at Edwards AFB.  Tower operator Sgt. Chuck
Sorrels spotted them and notified the Air Defense Command.  Sgt.
Sorrels is heard on the original tapes and in a new segment
where he verifies the event as it is heard on the archival
recordings.  The UFOs are described and a decision is made to
launch F-106 fighter interceptors.  You are there for an
important part of UFO history.  Hear it for yourself, it's the
best UFO tape ever made.  Tape cost is $14.95 each plus $2.00
for shipping -- total $16.95 -- send either a personal check or
money order to: Independent International Films, Box 565, Dept.
GF, Old Bridge, New Jersey 08857.

KECKSBURG, PENNSYLVANIA CRASH TAPE -- UFO crash/retrieval Video
Documentary Most readers of this column are familiar with the
Roswell event, but many are unaware that a similar incident
occurred in Pennsylvania in 1965, near a small rural community
called Kecksburg.  Veteran UFO researcher Stan Gordon, has been
gathering information on this case for many years, and has
produced a studio made 92 minute video called "Kecksburg The
Untold Story."  This production recently won the 1998 EBE film
award for the Best Historical UFO Documentary.  The video
contains interviews with many people who have information about
the case including witnesses who saw the object in the sky, and
those who say they came across a large metallic acorn shaped
object with strange markings, partially buried in the ground,
before the military arrived on the scene.  Among those
interviewed are reporters who were on location that night.  A
witness says he saw the odd acorn shaped object on the back of
an army flatbed tractor trailer truck.  Civilians claim they
were confronted by armed military personnel.  For the first time
witnesses speak out on camera discussing information which
suggests that there could have been a cover-up.  A startling
revelation is revealed here from a witness, who says he saw a
body in the same building with the Kecksburg object at
Wright-Patterson Air Force Base only days after it was delivered
there. Also contained in the documentary are some of the actual
audio excerpts from the WHJB radio special called "Object in the
woods."  It was broadcast soon after the incident in a "cut and
edited version."  To order your copy of "Kecksburg The Untold
Story"  send a check or money order to: Stan Gordon Productions,
P.O. Box 936, Greensburg, PA 15601. Attention: Dept. GF.  The
cost of the tape including shipping and handling is $35.90.  For
PA residents the cost including tax, S&H is $38.05. For more
information, check out Stan's updated website at
www.westol.com/~paufo

MUFON JOURNAL For more detailed investigative reports subscribe
by writing to 103 Oldtowne Road, Sequin, TX 78155-4099 or E-mail
Mufon@aol.com.  Filer's Files Copyright 1999 by George A. Filer,
all rights reserved.  Readers may post items from the Files on
their Websites provided that they credit the newsletter and its
editor by name and list the date of issue that the item
appeared.  Send your letters to me at Majorstar@aol.com.  If you
wish to keep your name confidential please so state.








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   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Aug > Aug 27

                              Re: UFO Ridicule

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1999 14:10:09 EDT
Fwd Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1999 22:48:59 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO Ridicule


 >From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
 >Subject: Re: UFO Ridicule
 >Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 12:54:39 -0400

 >>From: Jenny Randles <nufon@currantbun.com>
 >>To: <updates@globalserve.net>
 >>Subject: Re: UFO Ridicule
 >>Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 12:16:19 +0100

 >>I have been following this debate with interest, and I think
 >>valid points are being made on all sides.

 >I trust I'm not the only one to applaud Jenny for her honesty,
 >her fairness, and her thoroughness in tackling this
 >much-disputed question. I learned a lot from what she wrote.

Boy, so did I!  I learned that depending on your belief system,
the evidence one "sees" is really "perceived" and while often
valid, is also often invalid against reality.  But the reality
depends on... uh, what was that again?  Wait, wait, I think I
got it....

I learned that one must not trust his or her own observations,
because they may be as valid as his or her belief system, which
may not create the circumstances for recognition of ...

Whew!  Sorry, I am having a tough time with this logic.  I guess
I didn't get it after all. Sorry.  Gosh I must be a real maroon!

On thinking it again, however, I must admit that one can
maintain a nice, middle of the road position, whilst making no
contribution to the subject. I know this because I do it all the
time.  But it doesn't help any of us, you know.

But I do so in order to point to the department of silly walks I
see attempting to establish the rules of the game, to the
amusement of the inebriants and the dismay of the sober.  I
always hope that this action may help some of us.  I must be a
maroon!

We all have stories, and as someone I respect once opined, those
who are true researchers have no opinion (on a personal level),
as they are scientists looking for the truth.  Way too many of
us, myself included (God forgive me my honesty), proclaim
_truth_ and have it not.  To have a "bent" or "leaning" towards
a solution is one thing.  Perhaps, Ms. Randles, this is your
position?  But too many have much more than such.  They proclaim
to have truth.  And this makes me extraordinarily angry.






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Aug > Aug 27

                       Re: Films of UFOs and Sasquatch

From: Royce J. Myers III <evidence@hotmail.com>
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1999 17:31:13 PDT
Fwd Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1999 23:02:36 -0400
Subject: Re: Films of UFOs and Sasquatch


 >From: George Barkouris <apurimac@ath.forthnet.gr>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
 >Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 12:30:51 +0200
 >Subject: Re: Films of UFOs and Sasquatch

 >>From: Royce J. Myers III <evidence@hotmail.com>
 >>To: updates@globalserve.net
 >>Subject: JFK: Films of UFOs and Sasquatch
 >>Date: Sun, 22 Aug 1999 12:41:47 PDT


 >>I was wondering if anyone remembers hearing about a man in
 >>either the Air Force or the Secret Service who served aboard Air
 >>Force One during JFK's presidency.

 >>This person reported that he had conversations with JFK
 >>regarding UFOs. He had also stated that JFK would watch
 >>classified films of UFOs and Sasquatch at the Pentagon.

 >>I vaguely remember hearing his story on either Heff Rense or Art
 >>Bell. Any help would be greatly apreciated. Thank you.

 >The name is William Holden. The man was a steward on Air Force
 >One. On June 27, 1963 he had a conversation with JFK about
 >UFO's.

 >You can read 'Beyond Roswell' by Michael Hesemann and Philip
 >Mantle, Ch.9 page 138 about that.

 >Regards,

 >George Barkouris

 >Athens, Greece


George,

Thanks a lot, I appreciate the information.

Regards,

Royce










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   Aug > Aug 28

                CPR-Canada News: More Crop Circles - Ardmore,

From: Paul Anderson - TMP / CPR-Canada <psa@direct.ca>
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1999 21:07:45 -0800
Fwd Date: Sat, 28 Aug 1999 09:08:05 -0400
Subject: CPR-Canada News: More Crop Circles - Ardmore,


CPR-Canada News
News and Updates from Circles Phenomenon Research Canada

http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Cavern/3310

More Crop Circles - Ardmore, Alberta

August 27, 1999

_____________________________


Editor:
Paul Anderson

_____________________________


Preliminary Report - August 27

Received a call this morning from a farmer, Bill Swiderski, at
Ardmore, Alberta, northeast of Edmonton, who reported six
circles in a hay field. All are about the same size,
approximately 4 feet in diametre. Each circle is a "fat ring"
with a standing 1 foot wide centre. Three are grouped together
in a semi-circle, equal distances apart. The other three are a
distance away from these ones, and not grouped together. The hay
is not flattened, however, it is simply "missing" except for the
centre areas (nothing growing in the ring areas).

Mr. Swiderski said that they have found the same circles in this
spot for the past three years now. The circles are on hilly
ground with sand deposits. He has not sprayed or fertilized the
field recently (this particular field is not used for regular
harvesting).

He and his wife are both very helpful and open to further ground
inspection, sampling, etc. He contacted CPR-Canada through an
article which ran in the August 19 edition of The Western
Producer, a large agricultural and farming publication, which
alerted farmers to be on the lookout for circles around harvest
time, when most are found here. Hopefully more will do the same!
This also shows that many formations probably do go unreported
initially, as they apparently had these last year and the
previous year as well (making fifteen reports for '98).
Networking is thus very important in this business, especially
in such a large country!

Field report, images to follow as soon as possible.

This is the sixth report so far this year.

Paul Anderson
Director
CPR-Canada

_____________________________


Circle Phenomena in Canada Report Archive 1999:

http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Cavern/3310/1999.html

A reminder for all Canadian subscribers / readers - your
assistance is welcome and needed - ANY reports of other
possible circles this year, please do let us know as soon as
possible! See Reporting and Field Research Guidelines on the
web site for more information:

http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Cavern/3310/reporting.html

_____________________________


CPR-Canada News is the e-mail update service of
Circles Phenomenon Research Canada, and is published
periodically or as breaking news develops, with the
latest news and information and is available free by
subscription; to be added to or removed from the mailing
list, send your request, including "subscribe CPR-Canada
News" or "unsubscribe CPR-Canada News" and e-mail
address to:

psa@direct.c

CPR-Canada welcomes your reports and submissions.
Forward all correspondence to:


CIRCLES PHENOMENON RESEARCH CANADA
Circles Phenomenon Research International

Main Office

Suite 202 - 2086 West 2nd Avenue
Vancouver, BC  V6J 1J4  Canada
Tel / Fax: 604.731.8522
E-Mail: psa@direct.ca
Web: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Cavern/3310


� Circles Phenomenon Research Canada, 1999








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   Aug > Aug 28

                              Re: UFO Ridicule

From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1999 23:59:31 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 28 Aug 1999 09:15:05 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO Ridicule


 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
 >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >Subject: Re: UFO Ridicule
 >Date: Fri, 27 Aug 99 08:44:34 PDT

<Snip>

 >What baffled me, and continues to baffle me, about your
 >thin-skinned response to the mild -- very mild -- joke I made
 >about your address is that you, probably unlike most list
 >members, know who John Dee was.  You yourself made a joke about
 >it in Magonia years ago when you moved into the house. (For the
 >uninitiated, John Dee was a still controversial Elizabethan
 >alchemist/Cabalist. For a good, short account of his curious
 >life and career, see Chapter 8 of Frances A. Yates's The Occult
 >Philosophy in the Elizabethan Age [1979].)

<snip>

 >Cordially,

 >Jerry Clark


Jerry, list:

Fascinating dude, Dee. Some evidence out there that he was the
model for the character of Prospero in Shakespeare's "The
Tempest."

Rimmer's cottage is near where Olde John Dee's house once stood,
but is, alas, hardly the original itself. And more's the pity
(although John probably relishes the modern plumbing and
heating, not to mention the modem plug-in).

Red-headed Rimmer once led me past there, past the long old
stone wall thought to be the only remnant of the Dee household
era/area remaining (Dee was also a scientist, librarian, and
antiquarian), to a small churchyard wherein lies the crypt of
Sir Richard Francis Burton. No, not the actor who was twice
married to Elizabeth Taylor, but the _other_ Richard Burton. The
one who married Isabel.

One has only to take that short walk to grok the vast
psychological and philosophical distances (as it were) between
Canby and John Dee Cottage, and, say, the ETH and the PSH
respectively.

Europeans step outside their front door everyday and literally
(and metaphorically) stumble over human behavior repeated for
eons and eons (whatever the hell eons are). They kick elves and
the wee ones aside on their way to the pub, and while there,
downing a pint (or dare I say two, three, or four), have their
half-closed eyes tilted upwards only to encounter a damn
gargoyle grinning back from the ceiling. No wonder they're
nonplussed by the Yanks and their talk of imminent alien
inundation. Hell, I'd be nonplussed, too, not to mention
plastered to the floor from one too many pints. Funny how they
sneak up on you, innit?

So here's the pint, er, point, from the (largely) European Union
point of view: they can't really see where this talk of millions
of abductions in America (compared to a handful back home and
what is otherwise colloquially referred to as the "Home Planet")
is taking us, and could you Yanks please supply us with a bit
more, well, uh, definitive and corroborative, shall we say,
actual evidence,  for same, earlier claims of missing fetuses
seeming to have fallen somewhat by the, how do you say this,
wayside? Or is it road kill?

While you're at it, what happened to the vaunted "consistency"
of abduction reports, given that Jacobs is now conceding
multiple aliens? Excuse us Brits and Euros for pointing out that
the issue of consistency among abduction reports is, well,
inconsistent with the available data -- to put the best face on
it.

And just who is this Jacobs guy, anyway? Jacobean we're aware
of, but this Jacobs takes the cake, what with his ex cathedra
pronouncements to the effect that "I'll recognize real abduction
regressive hypnosis when I see it -- provided I did it in the
first place."

Me think that he doth protest too much -- whereas his American
readers seemeth not to protest at all. But that's Yankee hubris
for you. And in Jacobs's case, that's hubris with a capital H.

Here in Europe, we drink beer with a small b, at least those of
us who haven't succumbed to the Budweiser import. Ugh!

Dennis Dee



After all, the technological gloss aside, we've been dealing
with this sort of stuff, in one form or another, for nigh on
what must be several centuries -- and counting.






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   Aug > Aug 28

                      Re: 'New?' FBI memo about Roswell

From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 1999 00:37:07 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 28 Aug 1999 09:18:44 -0400
Subject: Re: 'New?' FBI memo about Roswell


 >From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@aol.com>
 >Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 18:30:30 EDT
 >Subject: Re: 'New?' FBI memo about Roswell
 >To: updates@globalserve.net


 >>From: Neil Morris <neil@adm1.ph.man.ac.uk>
 >>Date: Sun, 22 Aug 1999 10:03:35 -0700
 >>Fwd Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 13:58:02 -0400
 >>Subject: Re: 'New?' FBI memo about Roswell


<giant snip>

 >Neil,

 >Thanks for the brief timeline, reiterating critical times in the
 >development of the cover story.  I don't think many people
 >understand just how quickly the weather balloon cover story
 >developed.  It was being put out by Ramey and Kirton well before
 >Irving Newton ever laid eyes on the wreckage in Gen. Ramey's
 >office and gave it an official identification.  It went out
 >before James Bond Johnson showed up to take his pictures.

<another giant snip>

 >David Rudiak

David,

Yes, but the simple question is this:

Has Neil Morris been staring at his computer monitor too long,
or do you agree that the pictures Bond Johnson took in Ramey's
office are pictures of the 'Real Thing' (as Morris claims)?

Or do you think that the pictures Morris is analyzing to death
("See the glyphs! They're everywhere!") are actually those of
the substituted debris, in other words, a weather balloon and
Rawin target?

Don't try to weasel out of this one, lest you be branded a
pelicanist.

Is Morris right, in which case these pictures are the real
thing?

Or are you right, in which case what we're looking at here is
pictures of a balloon and tin-foil?

A or B, yes or no.

Don't be a weasel.

The Pelican







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                          BWW Media Alert 19990827

From: Bufo Calvin <BufoCalvin@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 1999 01:33:19 EDT
Fwd Date: Sat, 28 Aug 1999 09:25:37 -0400
Subject: BWW Media Alert 19990827

From: BufoCalvin@aol.com


Bufo Calvin P O Box 5231, Walnut Creek, CA 94596 Internet:
BufoCalvin@aol.com Website: http://members.aol.com/bufocalvin
http://www.onelist.com/subscribe/bwnl
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/redirect-home/bufosweirdworld

ALL RIGHTS RESERVED (permission is granted to reproduce or
redistribute this edition of Bufo's WEIRD WORLD provided that
attribution is made to http://members.aol.com/bufocalvin. It is
good etiquette to check with strangers before you e-mail them
something. If you forward this, please make sure it is clear
that you are forwarding it).

August 27, 1999

Welcome to the new subscribers.  The switch to Onelist is
complete.  It appears to have gone smoothly, although some
long-time subscribers have unsubscribed since.  If you are not
receiving it as desired, please let me know.

I will, in a very unusual circumstance, be off-line for several
days.  For that reason, I am posting this early, and it will be
a bit slim (some of my sources do not post until the weekend).
As usual, let me know what you think at bufocalvin@aol.com

On to the listings: Times are generally Pacific.

LIVE EVENTS (conferences, lectures, etc.)

What: THE PROPHET'S CONFERENCE
When: August 27 through August 29
Where: Port Townsend, Washington
Who: An incredible group, including: John A. Keel (THE MOTHMAN PROPHECIES,
etc.), John Mack (pulitzer-prize winning Harvard psychiatrist supporter of
abductions), Joe Firmage (the "UFO CEO"), Dr. Stephen Greer (CSETI), and
several more big names
Contact Information: <A
HREF="http://www.greatmystery.org/prophets.html">http://www.greatmystery.org/p
rophets.html</A> or toll-free
1-888-777-5981.
I'm coincidentally going to be in Seattle this weekend, but I don't think
I'll make the conference. Love to see Keel, though�he's one of the best
writers and thinkers in this field, even though (or perhaps because) he likes
to "rattle the cage".

RADIO

Eddie Middleton's very popular show in the South, Nightsearch, has a website
at <A HREF="http://listen.to/nightsearch">http://listen.to/nightsearch<;/A>.
Starting soon, the new website at <A
HREF="http://www.nightsearch.net/">http://www.nightsearch.net/<;/A>.
Unfortunately, no streaming audio. Sundays from 2:00 to 4:00 PM (Pacific).
The call-in line is 901-365-1430.

Ken Dashow, THE EDGE OF REALITY, Sundays at 9:00 PM, Fridays at 5:00 PM.
Dashow is known for his sarcastic wit. <A
HREF="http://www.talkamerica.com/dashow.html">http://www.talkamerica.com/dasho
w.html</A> and <A
HREF="http://www.dashow.com/edge.html">http://www.dashow.com/edge.html<;/A>.
There is some dispute on these times. A correspondent tells me (thanks! If
you'd like to be acknowledged on the list, let me know) that it runs from
5:00 PM to 8:00 PM (Pacific...that's how times are generally listed here),
with a repeat from 8:00 PM to 11:00 PM on Saturdays.

Mike Jarmus, REALITY AND BEYOND, 7:00 PM Sundays, <A
HREF="http://spectrum.orn.com/omega.ram">http://spectrum.orn.com/omega.ram<;/A>
. Streaming audio available

Art Bell - DREAMLAND
Currently, the most popular talk show on this area. <A
HREF="http://www.artbell.com/">http://www.artbell.com/<;/A>. Live streaming
audio (and video) available.

Jeff Rense - SIGHTINGS
Jeff is well-versed on the topics, but likes to let the guests speak,
resulting in one of the best radio shows on these topics. You can hear Real
Audio of the show, and there are archives as well. Go to <A
HREF="http://www.sightings.com/">http://www.sightings.com/<;/A> for more
information. The show is on at 7:00 PM Pacific Monday through Friday, and
8:00 PM Pacific on Sunday. You can hear it anywhere through your computer.
Please note that Jeff also often covers topics which I do not consider
relevant to this list. To subscribe to the Jeff Rense Weekly E-news (which
includes articles and a complete guest listing), e-mail (subject: Subscribe)
<A HREF="mailto:jocelyn@dewittec.net">mailto:jocelyn@dewittec.net</A>.

Sunday, August 29, 8:00 PM, Joyce Murphy, live from Australia, on UFOs
Monday, August 30, 7:00 PM, Clifford Stone on UFO recovery
Wednesday, September 1, 7:00 PM, Michael Lindemann's weekly UFO/ET report;
Sam Sherman on the Edwards AFB UFO tapes
Thursday, September 2, 7:00 PM, John Schuessler National MUFON report
Friday, September 3, 7:00 PM, Joyce Murphy on Australian UFO reports

Paul Williams and Scott Carr: UFO DESK
This New York show has been around for years, but is now available on
streaming audio. The website is <A
HREF="http://www.escape.com/~paulw/ufodesk.html">http://www.escape.com/~paulw/
ufodesk.html</A>. It runs at 8:00 PM (Pacific) on Sundays.

Jeff Mishlove AND THE VIRTUAL UNIVERSITY
Webcast every weekday at 8:00 PM for two hours, with a repeat at 10:00 PM.
Webcast at <A
HREF="http://www.wisdomradio.com/">http://www.wisdomradio.com/<;/A>.

ERSKINE OVERNIGHT
Webcast 9:00 PM to Midnight with an immediate repeat at <A
HREF="http://www.talkamerica.com/">Talkamerica.com</A>.

TELEVISION

CHANNEL 7 (Australia) (Time Zone Unknown)

Saturday, August 28, 1:30 AM, SIGHTINGS (episode unknown)

THE DISCOVERY CHANNEL (Australia) (Time Zone Unknown)

Sunday, August 29, 12:00 PM, ARTHUR C. CLARKE'S MYSTERIOUS UNIVERSE (episode
unknown)

DISCOVERY CHANNEL (Europe) (GMT+1)

Monday, August 30, 10:25 AM, ARTHUR C. CLARKE'S MYSTERIOUS WORLD: MONSTERS OF
THE DEEP
Monday, August 30, 11:45 AM, ARTHUR C. CLARKE'S MYSTERIOUS UNIVERSE: PSYCHIC
DETECTIVES
Monday, August 30, 12:15 PM, ARTHUR C. CLARKE'S MYSTERIOUS UNIVERSE: SPIRITS
OF PLACE
Tuesday, August 31, 10:25 AM, ARTHUR C. CLARKE'S MYSTERIOUS UNIVERSE: ANCIENT
WISDOM (including "the skull of doom")
Wednesday, September 1, 10:25 AM, ARTHUR C. CLARKE'S MYSTERIOUS UNIVERSE: yeti

THE DISCOVERY CHANNEL (USA)

Saturday, August 28, 5:00 PM, SCIENCE MYSTERIES: MONSTERS OF THE LAKE
Thursday, September 2, 10:00 PM, INTO THE UNKNOWN: STRANGE BEASTS (mystery
big cats in the UK; hairy biped in China)
Friday, September 3, 1:00 AM, INTO THE UNKNOWN: STRANGE BEASTS (mystery big
cats in the UK; hairy biped in China)


LOCAL TELEVISION (USA)

BEYOND THE UNEXPLAINED WITH JANET RUSSELL
Janet does get major guests on her show. Check with your local cable company
to see if it is cablecasting the show. Specific guest information not
currently available.
SUNDAYS Cablevision of Woodbury NY
CH 25/80/96 9:30PM
MONDAYS Cablevision of Riverhead NY
CH 27 10:00AM
Manhattan Neighborhood Network NY
CH 56 1:30AM
TUESDAYS Cablevision of Yorktown Heights NY
CH 34 8:30PM
Community TV of Sante Fe New Mexico
CH 8 8:30PM
WEDNESDAYS Gateway Access "12" SpringCreek NY
CH 12 8:30PM
Pac "8" TV of Los Alamos N.Mexico
CH8 4:00 PM
THURSDAY Cablevision of Hauppague NY
CH 25 5PM
LTV of Easthampton NY
CH 27 10:00 AM
FRIDAY Cablevision of Brookhaven NY
CH 99 9:30PM
PAC 8 of Los Alamos New Mexico
CH 8 9:00 PM
SATURDAY Cablevision of Westchester NY
CH 58/37 2:00 PM

PBS (USA)
Dates, times, and even content of shows seem to vary on different PBS
stations. These listings are for KQED in San Francisco. Check your local
station.

Wednesday, September 1, 11:00 pM, GREAT DRIVES: HIGHWAY 93 (Graham Greene in
search of UFOs)

THE SCIENCE CHANNEL (USA)

New schedule again, since March 29, 1999.
Every day but Tuesday and Saturday, 9:00 AM, ARTHUR C. CLARKE (don't know
which one)
Every day but Tuesday and Saturday, 9:30 AM, ARTHUR C. CLARKE
Weekdays, 10:00 AM, STRANGE BUT TRUE?
Every day but Tuesday and Saturday, 5:00 PM, ARTHUR C. CLARKE
Every day but Tuesday and Saturday, 5:30 PM, ARTHUR C. CLARKE
Weekdays,6:00 PM, STRANGE BUT TRUE?
Every day but Monday and Sunday, 1:00 AM, ARTHUR C. CLARKE
Every day but Monday and Sunday, 1:30 AM, ARTHUR C. CLARKE
Tuesdays through Saturdays, 2:00 AM, STRANGE BUT TRUE?
Wednesdays, Thursdays, Fridays, 9:00 AM and 9:30 AM, ARTHUR C. CLARKE'S
MYSTERIOUS UNIVERSE
Wednesdays, Thursdays, Fridays, 5:00 PM and 5:30 PM, ARTHUR C. CLARKE'S
MYSTERIOUS UNIVERSE
Saturdays, OUT OF THIS WORLD all day long

THE SCI-FI CHANNEL (US Feed)

Monday, August 30, 11:00 AM, SIGHTINGS: EPISODE #3007 (English haunting; UFOs
and pop culture; ghost-busting; lunacy; Santeria; dowsers)
Tuesday, August 31, 11:00 AM, SIGHTINGS: EPISODE #3008 (Iranian UFOs; psychic
detective; ghost)
Wednesday, September 1, 11:00 AM, SIGHTINGS: EPISODE #3009 (Ghost; Russian
UFO crash; dolphins; Loch Ness monster)
Thursday, September 2, 11:00 AM, SIGHTINGS: EPISODE #3010 (Ohio UFO; haunted
movie set; Henry Rucker, healer)
Friday, September 3, 11:00 AM, SIGHTINGS: EPISODE #3011 (Apocalypse; past
lives; Montreal UFO; Japanese monster; psychic detective)

SYNDICATED (USA)

Wednesday, Sept 1, LEEZA (psychics and hypnotists)
___________________________

This is Bufo saying, "If =everything= seemed normal, that =would= be weird!"
____________________________

You can stop receiving this from me just by asking (note: it is commonly
redistributed, and I can't control you getting it from those sources) by
e-mail at BufoCalvin@aol.com. You can also subscribe or unsubscribe to Bufo's
WEIRD WORLD Media Alert the same way. Also, please let me know if there is
something in the media you think I should cover. Deadline is Tuesday, the
week before.
_____________________________


___________________________

This is Bufo saying, "If =everything= seemed normal, that =would= be weird!"
____________________________

Please let me know if there is something in the media you think
I should cover. Deadline is Tuesday, the week before.









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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 1999 >
   Aug > Aug 28

                              Re: UFO Ridicule

From: Bill Weber <koran@cchat.com>
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 1999 01:52:01 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 28 Aug 1999 09:28:38 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO Ridicule


 >From: Jenny Randles <nufon@currantbun.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
 >Subject: Re: UFO Ridicule
 >Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1999 15:09:13 +0100

 >>From: Bill Weber <koran@cchat.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
 >>Subject: Re: UFO Ridicule
 >>Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 10:02:14 -0400


Hi, Jenny,

 >>Really?  I don't get it.  After weeks of debate in which the
 >>opponents clearly demonstrate a better knowledge of both
 >>pelicans _and_ hot air balloons than do the proponents, and also
 >>clearly show how neither explanation fit the facts of the cases
 >>they purport to explain, you still think this kind of skepticism
 >>is based on evidence?

 >Slow down a bit. Please dont start seeing things I do not
 >intend. When did I defend pelicans as the cause of the Ken
 >Arnold case? I have said from the word go that I did not believe
 >that answer and, after a couple days of thought, if you recall,
 >weeks and weeks ago, that I had yet to see evidence that
 >persuaded me Socorro was a balloon.

 >I was answering a question about the reasons behind the inherent
 >scepticism in Britain and doing so from a general perspective
 >not defending any individual or any argument about a particular
 >case.

 >This was an attempt to explain the difference of approach here
 >and in the US and not a defence of people and cases that I never
 >even mentioned. It involves philosophy, psychology, subconscious
 >motives and cannot ever be clear cut. But I do think that
 >perception of the evidence (as it is interepreted) is the
 >primary factor. That is my experience anyhow - and it is
 >obviously not universally applicable as nothing ever can be to
 >human beings.

Let me say I certainly wish I would have sent Greg Sandow's
response rather than mine.  <G>I enjoyed your post and learned
a lot. Thank's.  I didn't think you were defending the cramming
of ridiculous prosaic explanations into inappropriate situations
and calling it properly skeptical British research, but frankly,
I was confused as to exactly what you were saying.  Please
pardon my "misperception." Fresh from reading the pelicanist
debates on another thread, I went on a mini-rant.

Jerry Clark pointed out that philosophical, psychological and
subconscious motives apply not only to the witness and pro ETH
researcher, but to the skeptic as well.  I'd guess that Clark
would say that it is as true for American participants as it is
for British witnesses and researchers - but of course I'd leave
that argument to him.

My only point was that I have read many seemingly sincere posts
by researchers (and I certainly don't direct any of this at you)
who want to improve Ufology by throwing out the hoaxers and
liars and those researchers who are far too pro ETH biased.
This list has been slap-full of those posts.  Great.  Name any
endeavor where those types don't exist.  But I've read very few
posts about the problem in Ufology of researchers placating the
pelicanists at the expense of a kernal of truth.  I guess nobody
wants to be ridiculed, especially those who sling the most mud.

As someone else on this list recently said, there is an all too
frequent pattern in which a witness is deemed unable to perceive
correctly while he's alive, and later, after he's dead and
unable to defend himself, is deemed a kook and a liar.  Of
course there are problems with witness perception and
subconscious motivations, but what if one of these witnesses
actually saw exactly what he said he did?  These folks who
retroactively apply oddly inappropriate prosaic explanations to
heretofore unexplained cases without doing any research either
on the case or their own explanations, do a disservice to
Ufology and people in general.  I certainly agree with you that
"perception of the evidence" is key, and I think I understand
you.

Once again, I apologize for my misunderstanding, and my rant
certainly wasn't directed at you.  Thank's for clearing it up.
I think I've slowed down a bit too, BTW. <G>

Best,

Bill








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   Aug > Aug 28

                            Alfred's Odd Ode #314

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 1999 05:19:19 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 28 Aug 1999 09:37:55 -0400
Subject: Alfred's Odd Ode #314


Apology to MW #314 (For August 28, 1999)

The universe is out there and it will not go away, though the
trappings of the man consume your time. Designed to keep you
working, it's a sapper of your will, and it chews on your
behavior like a dog that's lost its mind. You shall not have a
lot of time to speculate and wonder --  your thinking is a
pastime that he knows could put him under. And He alone shall
take the time to satisfy his needs, so he engineers a system
that will keep you on your knees!

He demands that YOU be humble (while he struts behind your
back), and he works to keep you *hungry* -- it's his job. He'll
take you to the wire like the cowboy on a horse, and he'll spur
you in the gut to hear you sob. He's mean and arbitrary, is
"convenienced" as can be; he doesn't care you're hurting -- he
just locks his _gate_, you see. And forget about due process, or
any rights you have. It's ALL at his convenience, and he'll use
you like he HAS. You're nothing but a tool for him -- it's YOU
that's wearing down, and It's YOU that heats his water to be
treated like his clown!!!

This BEGS for your autonomy -- the demand for some respect, and
you've _earned_ it by the fact that you've been BORN! For
reasons good or bad (it doesn't matter one iota) it is _you_
that does the dancing on his horn. It's why you need autonomy --
it's to disembowel a *king*; it's to strangle all the *priests*
with steaming innards found therein, and italics
notwithstanding, in poetics that are FREE, I can make the
intimation this is NOT hyperbole. <g>.

Shadows are abiding in his official slight of hand, and the news
will do its job to fog things up. To keep a person fretful,
uninformed, and in distraction is the money in his bank and
gourmet coffee in his cup. There's much that he's not telling
(back behind the black-paned glass), and excuses rendered,
plainly, are ridiculous and crass. It's a foul recrimination
that I level at the shill who pretends that no conspiracies can
exist against our will! Posner is a poser who proposes you've no
sense, and the twitcher as a twister and a twirler makes you
_dense_. Rank disinformation is the order of the day, and *most*
abuse their power when you close your eyes to pray.

I've seen him wax his *sanctity* with a hanky to his eye,
looking dewy eyed and grateful for his lord. A doctor
something/other with a bible in his hand, and a pot gut out to
here (near on the floor!). He waxed his verbiage *beautifully*
-- had us sing a little song; I felt just like an idiot when I
had to string along. Then he got into his Cadillac, and he put
his bible down, and cooling off with AC, drove his house girl
out of town. They'll visit first his condo, where she'll try to
perk him up, the view is million dollar, and appointments cost a
lot. And then there'll be the *party*, and the ladies all make
*nice*, and one or two will walk outside to take a break from
vice. A few will powder noses, and some more will watch the sky,
but the housegirl heaves her dinner as the saucer hovers by.

~                           Distracting from the vomit or the
games the rich men play, a flying saucer's flying by as plain as
sin or day!! The housegirl is astonished, and then somehow
filled with shame -- lost self-respect was palpable where she
would not put a name.

Like it caught her in the open, and it saw her sad debasement --
was a witness to revulsion marred and smeared. It stopped along
its track, then seemed to bob just like a cork, and then it
moved back in her face to get quite near! She was frozen in her
fearfulness, transfixed with fear and dread, forgotten was her
sickness (if _not_ the shame) -- you bet. And she trembled at
it's size, and the ease with which it moved -- its soundlessness
and shininess, it's STAR reflecting -- huge! She can see her own
reflection (!) -- see the vomit on her chin. She can see the
lights behind her like a fun house mirror -- thin. Then, just
*that* fast -- it's on its way, like it hadn't even stopped. And
she wondered if it happened as, well out of site, it dropped.

The man remained behind her and she climbed the redwood rail, as
she'd really rather jump than go inside. She knew a greater
truthfulness that complicated things, and she knew she couldn't
say what she'd describe. She looked down into blackness like a
yawning gulping throat, and she teetered on the brink of what
she'd know she missed the most. She listened to the night sound
and she heard a hooting owl; it was asking who she thought she
was. It seemed to sneer and scowl. Then high pitched testimony
of the squeaking of the bats, the muted forest's murmur coming
back from silence black! It was like a celebration of the truth
that hovered past and she took a breath with strength anew and
laughed out loud at last. These sullen hypocritical were doomed
to sad despair, and time was running out for mental pot-guts
lurking there. SHE would stay around to see the knashing of
their teeth, as they choked their words of *righteousness* in
denial -- disbelief. She stepped down from the redwood, and she
squared her shoulders high -- walked in and called a taxi; she
would try _again_ to try.

Lehmberg@snowhill.com

The housegirl is a metaphor.  The point is that there's _always_
more than seen. Accepting that is _decidedly_ liberating.

Our world bobs like a radioactive cork in the seas of larger
worlds -- we that allow ourselves the arrogance of our centrist
belief, our pathetic hubris, or the imagined favor of our
jealous God. . .

Restore John Ford!

--
Ponder the Wit & Wisdom of Ching Chow!
View "Unstill Life" -- Animation . . . and more.
Consider Matter, Mind & Movement.
See the current HTML "Apology to MW" with illustration.
Take a ride in the Teleporter.

Explore "Alfred Lehmberg's Alien View" at his Fortunecity URL.

http://www.fortunecity.com/roswell/arecibo/46/
<Updated 14 August>
http://www.fortunecity.com/roswell/witches/237/lehmberg.html

John Ford Restoration Fund -- Send your checks and
money orders to _me_, Alfred Lehmberg
(cut out the lawyers, they got their's) at:
304 Melbourne Drive, Enterprise AL, 36330. Strict records kept.
$350.00 pledged -- $200.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see from
afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, burned at the





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   Aug > Aug 28

                    Re: Daylight Flying Triangle Footage

From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net>
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 1999 16:05:44 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 28 Aug 1999 17:27:16 -0400
Subject: Re: Daylight Flying Triangle Footage

 >From: Adriano Forgione <mbalien@tin.it>
 >Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1999 16:27:52 +0200
 >To: updates@globalserve.net
 >Subject: Daylight Flying Triangle Footage


Hello Adriano,

You wrote:

 >Dear UFO community,

 >Last month I did some research in the archives of National
 >Italian Television Broadcasting, RAI, and discovered some
 >interesting UFO footage, unoticed by the international
 >UFO community in the last years.

I joined this list five years ago. Aside from the ongoing dialog
on UFO abduction one of my favorite areas to participate in had
to do with video (daylight or other) of anomalous flying
objects. (UFOs) I began connecting with the people who were
recording these things. As a result I accumulated a sizable
library of UFO videotape.

I have seen this "object" that you've posted before. Tom King
got about 10 or 15 minutes worth of daylight video of an three
lobed white object that is -identical- to the ones that you have
posted. Tom shot that video over Arizona about six years ago.
The video is Tom's property so I will not post any single frame
captures that are taken from it. You'll have to write to him and
ask his permission.

For awhile, we made a lot of noise on this list about this
daylight videotape of "UFOs." Very few paid attention then and I
daresay very few will pay much attention now. (What with
"balloon fever" and all!) The footage that Tom, myself and many
others have taken shows the same objects that first came to our
attention over Mexico City during the eclipse of 1991. (? I'm
not positive if I have the year correct. But thereabouts
anyway.)

A new study/analysis needs to be conducted comparing Toms'
footage with this new/old material that you have found.

Also, I don't think it's fair or accurate to call this object a
"triangle craft." What the single frames show is three slightly
fuzzy white spheres in a close -triangular formation.- It's just
a little premature to label the object a "triangle" or even a
"craft" at this point.

Until a complete and thorough analysis is performed all it is is
an unexplained flying object.

Contact Tom King! His video will strengthen your case. Yours
will strengthen his.  Best of luck and please continue to keep
us informed as to progress.

Peace,

John Velez
________________________________________________
                                  jvif@spacelab.net
                     ABDUCTION INFORMATION CENTER
                             http://www.if-aic.com/
  "Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind."
________________________________________________





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   Aug > Aug 28

                              TUVPO Project ALP

From: Erol Erkmen <andromeda1@turk.net>
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 1999 10:13:02 +0300
Fwd Date: Sat, 28 Aug 1999 17:36:21 -0400
Subject: TUVPO Project ALP


We as TUVPO know from our research that there is the effect of
the ARGON gas in the discovery of the source of A.L.P.

We also know that normally only 1% of Argon gas is found in the
atmosphere but that this amount increases before an earthquake.
ARGON is also used in neon lights. This gas's glow in air is
probably caused by the triggering of the static electricity.


Here is a laboratory experiment:

Static electricity increases with the friction of the fault
lines. If we can prove here the relation of the seismic
movements with A.L.P, which we believe there is, wouldn't the
detection of Argon gas and the measurement of the static
electricity be a signal for an upcoming earthquake?

We request that scientists to support this project, publish
their thoughts and discoveries here and even find a sponsor for
this project and have a chance for better and deeper research.






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                     Re: Kenneth Arnold's 'Flying Discs'

From: Asgeir W. Skavhaug <asge-s@online.no>
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 1999 16:16:46 +0200
Fwd Date: Sat, 28 Aug 1999 17:44:13 -0400
Subject: Re: Kenneth Arnold's 'Flying Discs'


 >From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@aol.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
 >Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 08:58:55 EDT
 >Subject: Re: Kenneth Arnold's 'Flying Discs'

 >>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
 >>Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 00:20:25 -0400
 >>Subject: Re: Kenneth Arnold's 'Flying Discs'

 >>If there is one thing I have learned abou ufology it is that you
 >>get to study so many seemingly non-related issues....
 >>_In_ the Zamorra case we are learning more than we ever wanted
 >>to know about balloons, and here it is pelicans uber alles!
 >>My only conclusion after reviewing this pelican information is
 >>that pelicans are even less likely than before to be the
 >>explanation.

 >I was hiking last week in Point Reyes, north of San Francisco,
 >on the Pacific Ocean.  There are lots of California brown
 >pelicans flying up and down the coast.  These aren't the same as
 >those pesky Great White Pelicans that the pelicanist rhapsodize
 >about for the Arnold sighting.  But since we are learning more
 >than we ever wanted to know about pelicans, I throw in some of
 >my observations.

<snip>

 >It was more like a group of otherwise lone
 >birds simply following coastline together, but not one another.
 >It was late in the afternoon, the sun was getting low, so I also
 >tried to observe the pelicans when their angle to the sun was
 >low on the chance that I might catch some of that bird sheen off
 >those oily feathers that we hear so much about.  Well, I never
 >saw it, but again these were brown pelicans and less reflective.
 >Off in the distance, maybe a mile up the coast, they looked like
 >nothing more than dark dots and were hard to see.

 >So much for my pelican-watching.

 >David Rudiak

----------------------------------

 >From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
 >Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 21:40:51 -0500
 >Subject: Re: Kenneth Arnold's 'Flying Discs'

 >>From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@aol.com>
 >>Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 08:58:55 EDT
 >>Subject: Kenneth Arnold's 'Flying Discs'
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>

 ><snip>

 >>It was late in the afternoon, the sun was getting low, so I also
 >>tried to observe the pelicans when their angle to the sun was
 >>low on the chance that I might catch some of that bird sheen off
 >>those oily feathers that we hear so much about.  Well, I never
 >>saw it, but again these were brown pelicans and less reflective.
 >>Off in the distance, maybe a mile up the coast, they looked like
 >>nothing more than dark dots and were hard to see.

 >>So much for my pelican-watching.


 >David,

 >As you say in the snipped part above, the Great White is indeed
 >a bird of a different color.

 >In early August I saw one up fairly close in Jackson Hole,
 >Wyoming. These guys are _big_ birds, a ten-foot wingspan being
 >no exaggeration. He/she flew much like a hawk or buzzard -- a
 >leisurely flap of the wing now and then, followed by a long,
 >graceful glide.

 >They are a brilliant white and can easily be seen at a distance
 >of miles (as I did back in June in the same location).

 >Not saying (or even suggesting!) that that's what Arnold saw --
 >just saying that the Great White Pelican is truly impressive in
 >person. And that they hang out around Jackson Hole, if nowhere
 >else.

 >Which I guess qualifies me as a pelicanist. Happily, as my wife
 >happens to be an aviculturist.

 >Dennis

David & Dennis,

Don't forget that if both you pelicanists slightly modify your
messages and leave out any references to Arnold, these mails
will also perfectly qualify for the inclusion on the Pelican
Watch Page, i.e.,

http://ecocanada.com/seepel/wwwboard.html

with the following excerpt:

  "We really hope that people all over the world will post their
  sightings of pelicans on this page. Apart from the fun for our
  readers of personally keeping track of their favourite
  pelicans, the information gathered will provide valuable
  information for conservationists about the migration, nesting
  activities, and population trends of the various species."


Maybe it will also finally turn out that Arnold will become one
of the most -- if not the most -- famous birder in the US, after
WW II ?


- The Coming of the Pelicans!


Regards,
Asgeir





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                              Re: UFO Ridicule

From: Scott Reed <sreed@zoomnet.net>
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 1999 10:46:51 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 28 Aug 1999 17:46:54 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO Ridicule


First off, thanks to everyone here who responded to my post
concerning the need for an editor.  I appreciate all the
interest and kind words about my project.  Admittedly I was a
little nervous about posting here for a couple of reasons.  The
first being that I'm a cartoonist, not a UFO author per se. The
fact that I think, I hope, that I can depict ufology in a
visual, comic book form apparently hasn't given anyone cause for
concern (yet!)  The second reason for my apprehension is due to
apparent fact that ufology seems so clearly divided into
'believers' and 'skeptics', that any middle of the road
approach, or even an admission of not adhering to one set of
conclusions might be construed as wishy-washy.

I couldn't resist responding to this thread on UFO ridicule.
I'm certainly not an expert on the level of many folks here.  My
hat is off to all of you. I have followed the subject with
interest for several years.  I have even been to a so-called UFO
conference or convention once in L.A, where I got the
opportunity to meet some researchers, and to listen to several
speakers on the subject.  It was a fascinating thing.  Some
people there seemed like oddballs to me.  Others seemed 'normal'
enough.  One of the speakers was an 'abductee' who claimed she
had been kidnapped by gov't agents as well as by aliens.  She
grew emotional during her speech.  Her associates passed out
photographs taken of UFOs to the audience.  I wasn't impressed
with the pictures in the least, and I had the sinking suspicion
that she was lying through her teeth, as she wiped away tears
and continued on bravely before the microphone.  I felt bad
about that, a little guilty because here was a woman who was
clearly upset, speaking about atrocities committed against her.
But I felt, I knew that it was an act.  Not because it 'had to
be, those things are impossible', but because I suddenly felt
part of a charade. Simply, I didn't believe her.  It was one of
the strangest experiences I think I've had, in a way.  I sat in
a group of over a hundred people and felt like I was the only
one there who could see behind the preverbial curtain.  This
troubled me quite a bit, it re-arranged my own views on the
subject.  Suddenly it became very complicated.

Another individual spoke at length about Mars, and what may be
lying there just waiting for us to find.  I didn't believe him
either.  I had actually read a book he had written on the
subject, and I found it imaginative but compelling.  But when I
saw him in person, when I sat and watched his slide show
demonstration, I became convinced that he was a charletan.  His
technical words sounded more and more like a mish-mash of
jargon, the true meanings lost in the screwball world of
psuedo-science.  It seemed to me a contrast against his
appearance and otherwise respectable looking presentation.  But
it still frustrated me.  I needed to know more about this.  I
was more interested in the subject than ever, but now I was
interested for different reasons.  Maybe UFOs are nothing, in
which case the phenomenon itself enters into a realm that is
possibly more troubling than ever.

I am most impressed, for some reason, with those who take the
stance that UFOs may be intersteller/interdimensional/whatever?
beings...or there may be absolutely nothing to it.  This
rudimentary approach appeals to me because it points toward the
ambiguous nature of the phenomenon, the fact that even the best
evidence is so hotly contested.  Why is the best evidence in
question?  Shouldn't the evidence be able to stand on it's own?
Isn't that what 'best evidence' is supposed to do?  Where have I
gone wrong in my thoughts about this?  I hate being undecided.
I hate being wishy-washy.

When the subject of UFOs comes up in casual conversation, and it
sometimes does--this is 1999 and it has invaded popular culture
like a hammer.  I have a framed poster of the classic movie
'The Day The Earth Stood Still' in my living room.  Kind of begs
the question.  So when I am asked, I keep my responses to a
minimal, unless I know the person isn't going to look at my
funny.  "Sure, UFOs are interesting...maybe...who knows?  I've
never seen one, but I would like to..." those kinds of answers
are safe, they leave the door open just a crack, just in case it
really is okay to go into detail about my views on the subject,
the fact that I own 20 or so books on the subject, the fact that
I'm finishing a two year project that directly deals with UFOs.
But that's still a large margin of safety, because it's only a
comic book, and comics are for kids, right? I used to draw Star
Trek comics. I worked on the Independance Day comic.  It's all
the same, right?   I covered my bases.

The people I know who are interested in UFOs beyond the casual
sense rarely talk about it.  I have a friend who's father claims
he was abducted by aliens, but I have never talked to him about
it.  His wife has told me about it, with much hesitance.  Others
who I have contact with who have seen UFOs are also
tight-lipped about the subject.  They've told me because they
know I won't laugh at them.

Ridicule in the belief in UFOs is very real.  I don't want to
be mis-understood by people.  Who does?  Who wants to be an
outcast?  Ufology is a weird field of interest.  It's kooky.
Flying saucers?  You believe that stuff?  You ever been
abducted?  They give you an anal probe? Okay...You don't believe
it?  So why do you know so much about it?  Man, that's weird.

  I think you get the picture.

Scott



    Visit Reed Comics and preview  HIGH STRANGENESS,
       a 'pop-art' exploration of UFO phenomenon, and the
                ------  weekly on-line comic strip ------
                  -------- THE LAST ODYSSEY --------
        http://www.zoomnet.net/~sreed/strangeness.htm









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                      Re: 'New?' FBI memo about Roswell

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 1999 10:48:31 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 28 Aug 1999 17:50:32 -0400
Subject: Re: 'New?' FBI memo about Roswell


 >Date: Sat, 28 Aug 1999 00:37:07 -0500
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
 >From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
 >Subject: Re: 'New?' FBI memo about Roswell

 >>From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@aol.com>
 >>Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 18:30:30 EDT
 >>Subject: Re: 'New?' FBI memo about Roswell
 >>To: updates@globalserve.net

 >>>From: Neil Morris <neil@adm1.ph.man.ac.uk>
 >>>Date: Sun, 22 Aug 1999 10:03:35 -0700
 >>>Fwd Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 13:58:02 -0400
 >>>Subject: Re: 'New?' FBI memo about Roswell


<snippity do da, snippity yay>

 >Or are you right, in which case what we're looking at here is
 >pictures of a balloon and tin-foil?

 >A or B, yes or no.

 >Don't be a weasel.

 >The Pelican

Is there any truth to the rumor that you have stopped beating
your wife. A or B, yes or no, and don't be a weasel. The answers
to (most?) questions are not so neatly decided in the fallacious
comfort of a clearly defined "either -- or." Indeed, both the
complex question, and the "either -- or" are hallmarks of
fallacious critical thinking. Either you've stopped beating your
wife or you continue to beat her. Forget you may not even be
married. Applying our shallow perceptions to the anomalous is
not a scientific strong suit. Moreover it is our arrogant
Aristotelian hubris to even suppose that the secrets of this
ageless multiverse collapse so readily in the light of our very
limited logic.

Don't feel too much comfort _whatever_ answer you receive.
Something is in the sky, reported since the Egyptian middle
kingdom, consistently down through the ages, and to this very
day... I see them myself about one night in twenty, and I'm not
looking that hard. See some yourself in mission footage from
NASA. STS 48, and STS 80 can have one worriedly stroking their
chins and saying "hmmmm."

Lehmberg@snowhill.com
--
Ponder the Wit & Wisdom of Ching Chow!
View "Unstill Life" -- Animation . . . and more.
Consider Matter, Mind & Movement.
See the current HTML "Apology to MW" with illustration.
Take a ride in the Teleporter.

Explore "Alfred Lehmberg's Alien View" at his Fortunecity URL.

http://www.fortunecity.com/roswell/arecibo/46/
<Updated 14 August>
http://www.fortunecity.com/roswell/witches/237/lehmberg.html

John Ford Restoration Fund -- Send your checks and
money orders to _me_, Alfred Lehmberg
(cut out the lawyers, they got their's) at:
304 Melbourne Drive, Enterprise AL, 36330. Strict records kept.
$350.00 pledged -- $200.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see from
afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, burned at the
fundamentalist's stake.






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                              Re: UFO Ridicule

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 99 11:33:57 PDT
Fwd Date: Sat, 28 Aug 1999 17:55:32 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO Ridicule


 >Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1999 23:59:31 -0500
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
 >From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
 >Subject: Re: UFO Ridicule

 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
 >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >>Subject: Re: UFO Ridicule
 >>Date: Fri, 27 Aug 99 08:44:34 PDT

  Hi, Dennis,

 >One has only to take that short walk to grok the vast
 >psychological and philosophical distances (as it were) between
 >Canby and John Dee Cottage, and, say, the ETH and the PSH
 >respectively.

 >Europeans step outside their front door everyday and literally
 >(and metaphorically) stumble over human behavior repeated for
 >eons and eons (whatever the hell eons are). They kick elves and
 >the wee ones aside on their way to the pub, and while there,
 >downing a pint (or dare I say two, three, or four), have their
 >half-closed eyes tilted upwards only to encounter a damn
 >gargoyle grinning back from the ceiling. No wonder they're
 >nonplussed by the Yanks and their talk of imminent alien
 >inundation. Hell, I'd be nonplussed, too, not to mention
 >plastered to the floor from one too many pints. Funny how they
 >sneak up on you, innit?

 >So here's the pint, er, point, from the (largely) European Union
 >point of view: they can't really see where this talk of millions
 >of abductions in America (compared to a handful back home and
 >what is otherwise colloquially referred to as the "Home Planet")
 >is taking us, and could you Yanks please supply us with a bit
 >more, well, uh, definitive and corroborative, shall we say,
 >actual evidence,  for same, earlier claims of missing fetuses
 >seeming to have fallen somewhat by the, how do you say this,
 >wayside? Or is it road kill?

Uh, Dennis, what exactly are you talking about? I don't recall
that "millions of abductions in America" entered the discussion.
For that matter, I don't even recall that John and I mentioned
the ETH.  I know _I_ didn't.  The ETH is a subject, in my
observation, that Europeans seem more obsessed with (if only to
try to exorcise like the Great Satan) than Americans are. I'm
sorry to see you trying to pass yourself off as Euro, but hey,
it's a free country.

More likely, though, you've just confused this thread with
another one.  Maybe you've been hitting that imported English
beer a little too hard ... not that I haven't been guilty of
same myself from time to time.

Jerry Clark






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                      Re: 'New?' FBI memo about Roswell

From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 1999 20:31:04 EDT
Fwd Date: Sun, 29 Aug 1999 01:27:26 -0400
Subject: Re: 'New?' FBI memo about Roswell


 >From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
 >Date: Sat, 28 Aug 1999 00:37:07 -0500
 >Fwd Date: Sat, 28 Aug 1999 09:18:44 -0400
 >Subject: 'New?' FBI memo about Roswell

 >Yes, but the simple question is this:

 >Has Neil Morris been staring at his computer monitor too long,
 >or do you agree that the pictures Bond Johnson took in Ramey's
 >office are pictures of the 'Real Thing' (as Morris claims)?

 >Or do you think that the pictures Morris is analyzing to death
 >("See the glyphs! They're everywhere!") are actually those of
 >the substituted debris, in other words, a weather balloon and
 >Rawin target?

I believe, as Gen. Dubose said in his affidavit, that these are
pictures of a weather balloon.   I also believe, as both Dubose
and Marcel said, that the weather balloon was a cover story put
out by Gen. Ramey.

 >Don't try to weasel out of this one,

That has always been my opinion, which I have stated publicly
many times.  Why do you accuse me of trying to weasel out of
this?

 >lest you be branded a pelicanist.

Perish the thought!

 >Is Morris right, in which case these pictures are the real thing?

 >Or are you right, in which case what we're looking at here is
 >pictures of a balloon and tin-foil?

 >A or B, yes or no.

 >Don't be a weasel.

Don't be a slimy lawyer badgering the witness with simplistic
black and white alternatives.  While I basically think this
material is the remains of a deflated weather balloon and a
RAWIN target, the question may not be entirely that "simple."
I'm trying to keep an open mind here.  There remains the
possibility of confusion and some "real debris" being left
behind while a weather balloon was dumped on top.  That could
account for anomalous debris being in the mix that shouldn't be
there.  I have to give Neil Morris' analyses a fair shake since
he's an intelligent, honest, fair guy.  So far, however, I
haven't seen anything terribly convincing to my eye.  (The memo
being held by Ramey is another matter entirely.)

I also think there is a possible scenario of a military PIO
initially taking a photo of Marcel with "real debris" for
historical purposes.  This could conceivably account for the
Bill Moore version of Marcel's story, where he has Marcel
claiming to have had a single photo taken of him with the real
stuff before it was cleared out and replaced with a weather
balloon for subsequent photos.  (Also remember that Dubose
corroborated Marcel's basic story, flat-out saying that the
material shown in the photos was a weather balloon, and it was a
cover story put out by Ramey to get the press off their back and
divert attention.)

Or William Moore may have printed a slightly doctored version of
Marcel's actual statements. Among other things, he wasn't
terribly consistent in reporting the number of photos taken as
more and more of them showed up after he published "The Roswell
Incident."  There is of course other things like the MJ-12
papers, the Cutler-Twining memo, the Schulgen memo, and Moore's
own admission in 1989 of working with Air Force
counterintelligence in the 1980s and helping to put out
disinformation.

Again, the situation may not be "simple," "A or B, yes or no."

While we're on the topic of the radar target, I have argued in
the past that one of the sticks in the photos was 5 feet long,
whereas the longest stick on a Mogul-style radar target was 4
feet, and witnesses spoke of beams being no longer than 3 feet.
When the Air Force had the photos analyzed in 1994 by the CIA,
the working schematic diagram of the various sticks showed the
long stick being cropped and subsequently reported as being only
3 feet long.  I shouted foul.  The photo evidence was being
altered.

When Dennis Stacy had a look at the particular stick and diagram
that I was discussing, his take on it was that the stick was
broken into two pieces with some foil sheathing in between which
gave it the appearance of being a single, longer stick.

I have since obtained a high-quality blow-up of that photo from
the Univ. of Texas, Arlington, and I now agree (I choke as I say
this) with Dennis' assessment.  Apologies are in order also to
the Air Force, whom I accused of tampering with this evidence.
Too bad I can't say the say that about the rest of their report.

It is pretty clear, however, that the amount of stick debris in
the photos adds up to much less than one radar target, by their
own figures.  Furthermore all references to the debris by Ramey,
Newton, and others, like Maj. Kirton in the FBI telegram, were
of a singular balloon and radar target.

This is hardly the description of the recovery of a Mogul
balloon. made up of multiple weather balloons and multiple radar
targets.  It is, however, the description of a standard singular
meteorological balloon hoisting a standard singular radar
target.  That could easily have been obtained from a number of
places with sufficient lead time.  Col. Ryan (Ramey's operations
officer) musings the day before for the press about radar
targets explaining flying disc reports coupled with the
Circleville radar target showing up on the front page of the
Fort Worth Star-Telegram are suggestive that the pieces of a
cover story were perhaps already in progress a full day before
the events of July 8.

Again, the situation may not have been "simple."

 >Dennis

 >The Pelican

Indeed!

David Rudiak






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   Aug > Aug 29

                      Re: 'New?' FBI memo about Roswell

From: Mac Tonnies <Alintelbot@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 1999 21:01:03 EDT
Fwd Date: Sun, 29 Aug 1999 01:29:56 -0400
Subject: Re: 'New?' FBI memo about Roswell


"The Pelican" wrote:

 >From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
 >Date: Sat, 28 Aug 1999 00:37:07 -0500
 >Fwd Date: Sat, 28 Aug 1999 09:18:44 -0400
 >Subject: 'New?' FBI memo about Roswell

 >Has Neil Morris been staring at his computer monitor too long,
 >or do you agree that the pictures Bond Johnson took in Ramey's
 >office are pictures of the 'Real Thing' (as Morris claims)?

 >Or do you think that the pictures Morris is analyzing to death
 >("See the glyphs! They're everywhere!") are actually those of
 >the substituted debris, in other words, a weather balloon and
 >Rawin target?

I, for one, have looked quite closely at the results of Morris'
analysis and I can say with virtually 100% confidence that there
are no glyphs (at least none that are visible).  Wad aluminum foil
up and you get a myriad enticing little "shapes," which one can
interpret to be just about anything.  This is the same flaw _some_
independent investigators of the Cydonian anomalies have made:
finding erroneous "signals" among the noise.

Who was it, though, who mentioned Marcel darting about the office
trying to convince him that some of the alleged "markings" looked
"alien"...?  I think it was Irving Newton; this could be wrong.

All the best,
Mac Tonnies





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                      Re: 'New?' FBI memo about Roswell

From: Steven W. Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 1999 21:54:37 -0400
Fwd Date: Sun, 29 Aug 1999 01:34:29 -0400
Subject: Re: 'New?' FBI memo about Roswell


 >Date: Sat, 28 Aug 1999 10:48:31 -0500
 >From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
 >Subject: Re: 'New?' FBI memo about Roswell

<snip>

 >Is there any truth to the rumor that you have stopped beating
 >your wife. A or B, yes or no, and don't be a weasel. The answers
 >to (most?) questions are not so neatly decided in the fallacious
 >comfort of a clearly defined "either -- or."

Alfred-

This is an old trick used by reporters to elicit a response that
can be damning regardless of the answer.  It presumes a fact
that may not yet have been proven or accepted as true, and even
a failure to respond can be used against the interviewee.  More
than once I watched as reporters used this tactic to generate
news on a slow news day by asking authorities questions related
to on-going investigations in which they could not comment.

I think the example you've used here can, indeed, be answered by
a simple yes or no.  This is also true for a number of other
examples that I can think of, such as the concept of a woman who
claims to be partially pregnant.

However, the basic point you raise is a good one IMO.  I believe
that mankind views much of its reality through a filer of
beliefs and faith.  It would seem that societies have always
considered their understanding of the world around them to be at
the pinnacle of achievement, when that has in fact been a
neverending quest.

Steve

PS-  No, that FBI memo in question is not "New".






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                              Re: UFO Ridicule

From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 1999 21:23:25 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 29 Aug 1999 01:36:04 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO Ridicule


 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
 >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >Subject: Re: UFO Ridicule
 >Date: Sat, 28 Aug 99 11:33:57 PDT

<snip>

 >Uh, Dennis, what exactly are you talking about? I don't recall
 >that "millions of abductions in America" entered the discussion.
 >For that matter, I don't even recall that John and I mentioned
 >the ETH.  I know _I_ didn't.  The ETH is a subject, in my
 >observation, that Europeans seem more obsessed with (if only to
 >try to exorcise like the Great Satan) than Americans are. I'm
 >sorry to see you trying to pass yourself off as Euro, but hey,
 >it's a free country.


Actually, it was a literary conceit, as I'm sure you're aware,
patient and gentle Jerry. Nothing more, nothing less. In the
exercise of which one can, of course, mention anything one is
moved to.

I should point out that it is not me who claims millions of
Americans have been abducted, but certain leading lights among
the American UFO community, who shall go nameless.

 >More likely, though, you've just confused this thread with
 >another one.

Nope. It says "UFO Ridicule" right up there at the top of the
screen.

Dennis






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                 Re: Georgia: UFO Cult Claims Harassment By

From: GT McCoy <gtmccoy@harborside.com>
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 1999 19:44:46 -0700
Fwd Date: Sun, 29 Aug 1999 01:44:41 -0400
Subject: Re: Georgia: UFO Cult Claims Harassment By


 >Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1999 23:02:32 -0400
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
 >From: Sue Kovios <bradford@globalserve.net>
 >Subject: Re: Georgia: UFO Cult Claims Harassment By Authorities


Hello, all

 >>From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@get2net.dk>
 >>To: updates@globalserve.net
 >>Subject: Georgia: UFO Cult Claims Harassment By Authorities
 >>Date: Thu, 01 Jul 1999 02:08:19 GMT

 >>[List only]
 >>Source: CNN,

 ><snip>

 >>He and many in his group say they expect a spacecraft from
 >>Illyuwn to visit Earth in 2003, taking with it 144,000 chosen
 >>people, the Times reported Tuesday.

 >>"We are basically teaching about a new way of life ... which
 >>will be conducive to uplift humanity as a whole," Nuwaubian
 >>minister Marshall Chance told CNN.

 >This tastes like Heaven's Gate to me.  144,000 chosen, new way
 >of life, Marshall (Applewhite) and chance............sounds too
 >familiar.  Scary.

 >Sue


Not nescessarily, most end up looking ridiculous, in the manner
of, say Pat Robertson, Jimmy Swaggart or the recent group from
(I think) Taiwan, was expecting to leave this Rock with external
aid. There have been groups who; put a date on the second
coming, the method of transport, i.e. cloud, horse, or UFO, and
a specified date and time.

I remember a certain group, who was expecting the return of
Christ on a specific date in oh, as I recall, the mid 70's.

Everyone sold everthing they had, went to the nearest hill (this
isn't unique to Christianity either) and at precisely 2:00 pm
PDT - nothing happened.... I knew a few of these folks when I
worked for a Newspaper in Oregon.

GTMcCoy






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                             Re: UFO Desk Update

From: Paul Williams <paulw@escape.com>
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 1999 00:14:14 -0300
Fwd Date: Sun, 29 Aug 1999 01:49:32 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO Desk Update


You are all invited to listen to UFO Desk one a.m. Monday
8.30.99. My guest is UFO researcher Derrel Sims.

Please check this program out, and let me know what you think.

Link to WBAI can be found at UFO Desk website, just click on
"WEBCAST", that will launch your Real Player.

Much thanks.

Paul Williams
Execuitve Producer
UFO Desk (http://www.escape.com/~paulw/ufodesk.html)
WBAI Radio 99.5 FM   (http://www.wbaifree.org)
mailto:paulw@escape.com






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                       Of Poop, Gas, Birds And Bull...

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 1999 01:21:44 EDT
Fwd Date: Sun, 29 Aug 1999 11:29:53 -0400
Subject: Of Poop, Gas, Birds And Bull...


Been doing some thinking.  Been wondering why it is Errol
Bruce-Knapp prints half the stuff he does ... mine included.
Been wondering what people think about my silly fossifies and
Gesundt's sillier poop.  But most of all I been wondering why it
is that some folks out there haven't seen the hypocrisy in their
"truth."

I aint no philosopher.  Got me but _one_ Ph.D. and working on
another one.  I think I've been abducted only because I carry
with me memories of exactly that.  Know I've seen triangular
shaped UFOs because when I did, others did as well.

Then I read the slap happy pap some of you write under the
facade of truth, talking about pelicans, balloons and other
windbaggery and I begin to wonder; maybe it's because people
like to read their stuff coming back at 'em from the other side
of the Internet.  Maybe it's just that seeing it on their own
screens ain't enough.  Maybe.

But then I wonder, well, if that's true, then why not suffer
yourselves to make some sense, so that some jerk like Gesundt
doesn't hafta spout nonsense in defense of the real truth.  You
know, he only does that because he hopes to show you people how
silly you are acting.

At least, that's the way he sees it.  But of course, that may
not be the absolute truth either. Maybe he likes to see his own
stupidity come back at him, from this noisy ether.  But after a
Gripple and a pint of Prozac, he decided that ain't so.  He does
it because he is so very tired of hearing bullsh*t from people
who really should know better. The kind of bullsh*t that warps
their own intellect.  The one which shows their culpable
ignorance.

Some of these jive turkeys _do_ know better.  But that next
book, that next Nexis, presents itself like heroin to an addict
and like Young wrote, "Ah, the damage done."  The damage to your
own self.  Your own truth. Some of you give it up like blood for
dope.  It's so damnably obvious, it makes me sick to my stomach.
Worse than all of the above, it does serious damage to your
credibility.  One more post and one more person loses faith in
you.  Any faithful picked up along the way are not worth the
loss of those you lose.

So, I make fun.  Acting like an inebriated jerk permits others
to see their silly fossify through mine ... well, that's the
theory, anyway. Doesn't always work.

I think of the times when I woke up in my bed screaming, in
tears, trying hard to run away from them.  "Just a bad dream,
Jamey!" It's what they always called me.  Jamey.  Still do.  But
when Jamey thought about it, he realized it was _not_ a dream.
It was real.  He always knew the difference.  At least his
extended family loved him.  So that made the sh*t they told him
all right to say.

Except one day, after an especially difficult night with those
little doctors, just above his house in the Bronx. He was
standing on the third step to the second floor.  He was three
years old.  It was getting real close to Christmas.  Mom was
vacuuming on the second floor and while she was pushing and
pulling the Singer, she was talking about Santa and what he was
going to leave Jamey under the tree.

Jamey was only three, but boy was he pissed off.  Not at his
mother's talk about Santa, but instead, he wanted to scream out
at her about how disappointed and angry he was her and daddy for
not believing what he told them really happened to him so many
times.  It was why he _hated_ going to bed and had to sleep
in-between of his mom and dad.  And, he would _never_ go to bed
alone.  Never, even at three years old, go to bed without
locking every door in the house, closing every window he could
reach and lighting every stinking light in the house.  Santa was
a crock of crap. He knew that.  He knew it because not only did
he understand reality, even at that young age, but because he
related Santa to "them" and "they" always won the argument.  You
can fight the existence of Santa but not "them!"  And if he
understood, even then, that there was no Santa, but there _were_
those scary little monster doctors who took him up into that
hospital up there in the sky, then why the hell should he be
understood for one view but not the other, by his loving
parents?

While he was only three, he could cypher it all out for himself.
See, for one thing, the fireplace in his house was fake.  It was
real looking, but the only thingies in there what burned were
two red colored bulbs sitting under two little propellers which
rotated from the heat coming from the lamps.  And Jamey knew
only too well, that not even Saint Nicholas could come down a
non existent chimney.  But he was taken through the walls, out
the closed window and up into the sky on a light beam.  Go
figure!

So, instead of yelling at his mother for not believing what he
told them about being lifted from his bed by little doctors who
brought him high into the sky in some kind of solid light, he
just yelled at his mom for expecting him to believe in Santa!

Up there, they probed and looked and embarrass the shit out of
Jamey, who was always very modest.  And he was always naked when
they did that stuff to him.

And it was real. Not a dream.

Then I read about pelicans and other assorted poop written by
people who don't know squat about what Jamey and others like him
went through for so many years.  Like the alien pushing his way
out of the astronaut's chest in "Alien" the movie, Gesundt
climbs out of Jamey's chest, drunk as a skunk, and proceeds to
attempt to make the assholes look like the jerks they really
appear to him to be.

Maybe Doc Kanappy understands some of these things. Maybe he
just likes the break from the horse hockey.  Maybe he just
tolerates Gesundt because, well, who the hell knows? Maybe he's
grateful to Gesundt for cleaning, sobering and giving him some
peace when his wife went with the Eskimo a month or so back.

Incidentally, Kanappy, you still owe us $42.94.  Your health
plan doesn't cover cleaning the stains from your Woolworth dress
shirt.

So when Gesundt climbs out of my chest, think about how much
some of you look and sound like idiots in the light of memory.
Who are we gonna believe folks?  You?  Or us?

I am not a researcher.  Except when it comes to my own
experiences.  Then I wish to tell you, so there is no
misunderstanding... I am a researcher.

And I would like to publicly thank John Velez (AIC), Jerome
Clark, Budd Hopkins, Michael Lindemann, Jeff Rense and just a
few others whom I would rather not mention for being human and
for doing some things that none of you have been doing on a
constant basis.... For listening, understanding and accepting
the possibility that my truth might be absolute.  And for giving
good advise.

And Frank Herbert, who was a true friend and I swear, had
something of the features of Muad Dib. In Dune, he developed a
test for someone's humanity.  Presumably, his theory (in the
book) was that some people were human and some were not.  If not
human, then they were animals and destroyed by the Gom Jabbar,
the needle of death.  The test was pain and loneliness.  If you
could take the pain and the loneliness together without gnawing
off the offending limb, you were allowed to live. Yup, Frank was
a friend of Jamey.

Perhaps the same theory should be applied to researchers. With a
twist. Place the hand in the box containing the pain generator.
If the researcher removes his or her hand, the Gom Jabbar at the
neck will cause an immediate abduction experience... a real one.






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                    Re: Daylight Flying Triangle Footage

From: Amy Hebert <yelorose@swbell.net>
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 1999 00:27:26 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 29 Aug 1999 11:37:52 -0400
Subject: Re: Daylight Flying Triangle Footage

[Note: Image files are not posted to the UFO UpDates Archive
  @Ufomind.com - subscription has its advantages --ebk]

 >Date: Sat, 28 Aug 1999 16:05:44 -0400
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
 >From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net>
 >Subject: Re: Daylight Flying Triangle Footage

 >Also, I don't think it's fair or accurate to call this object a
 >"triangle craft." What the single frames show is three slightly
 >fuzzy white spheres in a close -triangular formation.- It's just
 >a little premature to label the object a "triangle" or even a
 >"craft" at this point.

Hi, John.

Your description reminded me of something that showed up in a
photograph I took on Ship Island in the Gulf of Mexico last year
(12 miles off shore from Biloxi, Mississippi).  Right after I
took the picture, I video taped the area (I always take too many
photographs and not enough video or too much video and not
enough photos so now I do both at the same time).  It looked
weird - like three spheres close together - but I don't know
what it was.  It did not show up in the video and there were no
balloons on the Island (against the rules as it is a national
park and wild life preserve). I figured maybe it was a seagull
but doesn't look like the seagulls in the video.

This post, the photograph and your comment brought it to mind.
(I'd forgotten about it.)

:>
Amy






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                      Re: 'New?' FBI memo about Roswell

From: Neil Morris <neil@adm1.ph.man.ac.uk>
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 1999 07:31:18 -0700
Fwd Date: Sun, 29 Aug 1999 11:42:21 -0400
Subject: Re: 'New?' FBI memo about Roswell


 >Date: Sat, 28 Aug 1999 00:37:07 -0500
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
 >From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
 >Subject: Re: 'New?' FBI memo about Roswell

<snip>

 >David,

 >Yes, but the simple question is this:

 >Has Neil Morris been staring at his computer monitor too long,
 >or do you agree that the pictures Bond Johnson took in Ramey's
 >office are pictures of the 'Real Thing' (as Morris claims)?

Morris hasn't as far as I'm aware claimed "it's the real thing"
how can anyone be 100% sure from 50 yr old photographs alone?.
What I do say is that I'm convinced to "my own satisfaction"
that it's as sure as hell _not_ an ML307B and a neoprene weather
balloon envelope.

 >Or do you think that the pictures Morris is analyzing to death
 >("See the glyphs! They're everywhere!") are actually those of
 >the substituted debris, in other words, a weather balloon and
 >Rawin target?

_And_ that the "debris" appears to have symbols of an (so far)
_unknown_ origin, in some cases the symbols are _repeated_ .

They are _not_ everywhere but in certain specific areas of the
debris, much of the debris is just that, debris, but debris
with _many_visable_ characteristics at total odds with what the
USAF has _claimed_ it to be for the last 50+ years.

ie Where in the ML307B specification does it state the required
(flower pattern?) edgetape be a hollow contruction and wire
framed reinforced?.

What was the purpose of a "cable loom" attached to a ML307B
radar reflector? A _passive_,_unpowered_ device?

Please note I do not mention "symbols" in the above 2 examples
just anomilies in the characteristics of the visible debris


 >Don't try to weasel out of this one, lest you be branded a
 >pelicanist.

 >Is Morris right, in which case these pictures are the real
 >thing?

 >Or are you right, in which case what we're looking at here is
 >pictures of a balloon and tin-foil?


I've no intention of becoming an evangelist professing this is
"the one true debris!". But I do suggest that it's time to start
afresh with a clean slate when it comes to the evaluation of
these photographs in the light of what can been seen with the
moderate level of technology used to date. A set of large sized
prints from the original negatives, a "good" commercial flat-bed
scanner and some easily available graphics software. No magical
numerical analysis requiring the combined power of a room full
of Cray Supercomputers, just a couple of humble PC's and a CD
burner to store the results.

Neil.

-------------------------------------------------------
                      Neil Morris@Home.






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                 Re: Georgia: UFO Cult Claims Harassment By

From: Paul Williams <paulw@escape.com>
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 1999 07:21:27 -0300
Fwd Date: Sun, 29 Aug 1999 11:48:54 -0400
Subject: Re: Georgia: UFO Cult Claims Harassment By


 >Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1999 23:02:32 -0400
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
 >From: Sue Kovios <bradford@globalserve.net>
 >Subject: Re: Georgia: UFO Cult Claims Harassment By Authorities

 >>From: Stig Agermose <stig.agermose@get2net.dk>
 >>To: updates@globalserve.net
 >>Subject: Georgia: UFO Cult Claims Harassment By Authorities
 >>Date: Thu, 01 Jul 1999 02:08:19 GMT

 >>[List only]

 >>Source: CNN,

 ><snip>

 >>He and many in his group say they expect a spacecraft from
 >>Illyuwn to visit Earth in 2003, taking with it 144,000 chosen
 >>people, the Times reported Tuesday.

 >>"We are basically teaching about a new way of life ... which
 >>will be conducive to uplift humanity as a whole," Nuwaubian
 >>minister Marshall Chance told CNN.

 >This tastes like Heaven's Gate to me.  144,000 chosen, new way
 >of life, Marshall (Applewhite) and chance............sounds too
 >familiar.  Scary.

 >Sue

 >Try 'Music for the Soul'; 'Chicken Soup' gets you all wet
 >and covered in noodles.


Jehovah's Witnessess believe that armageddon is coming and
144,000 will be taken to heaven, the rest, JWs, will inherit
the earth. Meanwhile the rest of us will be pushing up dasies.

At one time they believed armageddon was coming in 1975, funny
how these things work out eh?

Paul Wms.
Executive Prodcer UFO Desk





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                      Re: 'New?' FBI memo about Roswell

From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 1999 07:41:32 EDT
Fwd Date: Sun, 29 Aug 1999 11:56:44 -0400
Subject: Re: 'New?' FBI memo about Roswell


 >From: Mac Tonnies <Alintelbot@aol.com>
 >Date: Sat, 28 Aug 1999 21:01:03 EDT
 >Fwd Date: Sun, 29 Aug 1999 01:29:56 -0400
 >Subject: Re: 'New?' FBI memo about Roswell

 >I, for one, have looked quite closely at the results of Morris'
 >analysis and I can say with virtually 100% confidence that there
 >are no glyphs (at least none that are visible).  Wad aluminum foil
 >up and you get a myriad enticing little "shapes," which one can
 >interpret to be just about anything.  This is the same flaw _some_
 >independent investigators of the Cydonian anomalies have made:
 >finding erroneous "signals" among the noise.

 >Who was it, though, who mentioned Marcel darting about the office
 >trying to convince him that some of the alleged "markings" looked
 >"alien"...?  I think it was Irving Newton; this could be wrong.

It was Irving Newton, but I think it's doubtful that it ever
happened.  This was never a part of his original story, only a
recent elaboration of it.  Originally he said he didn't know
what this was a about and only found out some time after leaving
that it was about a flying saucer.  That doesn't sound like
somebody tried to convince him of alien hieroglyphics.

It also flatly contradicts Marcel, who said all of the sticks
with the interesting hieroglyphics had previously been cleared
out.  Dubose also said in his affidavit that the only thing
there in the pictures was a weather balloon, and that a weather
balloon explanation was put out by Ramey to get the press off
their backs.

Consider that Ramey and Dubose were also there and also a
probably a few reporters, according to Dubose, Marcel, and also
Newton at one time (the AP stories the next day did quote Newton
and a picture of Newton was taken by somebody).  So in order to
believe Newton, one must also believe that Marcel would make a
small scene in front of the Commanding General, a lowly weather
officer, and perhaps also the press, while under strict orders
from Ramey to keep his mouth shut.

If the press was there, then certainly nothing about Newton's
alleged incident with Marcel ever showed up in the newspapers,
even though they quoted him.  Quotes attributed to Marcel were
of a mundane story about Brazel finding the material and Marcel
going to pick it up.

Furthermore, after all this, Dubose, acting for Ramey,
recommended Marcel for promotion in the Reserve 3 months later.
Dubose indorsed Blanchard's next superior performance review of
Marcel, adding his recommendation that Marcel attend Air Command
and Staff School.  This was followed by Ramey's own comments a
few months later that Marcel's service to his command had been
"outstanding" and he thought Marcel future command officer
material.  Ramey also registered a mild protest against his
transfer, saying he had nobody to replace him.

It does not sound to me like Marcel made a jackass of himself in
front of his superior officers.

David Rudiak





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                              Re: UFO Ridicule

From: Diane Harrison - Keith Basterfield Network <tkbnetw@fan.net.au>
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 1999 21:58:41 +1000
Fwd Date: Sun, 29 Aug 1999 12:18:20 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO Ridicule


 >Date: Sat, 28 Aug 1999 21:23:25 -0500
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
 >From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
 >Subject: Re: UFO Ridicule

 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
 >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >>Subject: Re: UFO Ridicule
 >>Date: Sat, 28 Aug 99 11:33:57 PDT

 ><snip>

 >>Uh, Dennis, what exactly are you talking about? I don't recall
 >>that "millions of abductions in America" entered the discussion.
 >>For that matter, I don't even recall that John and I mentioned
 >>the ETH.  I know _I_ didn't.  The ETH is a subject, in my
 >>observation, that Europeans seem more obsessed with (if only to
 >>try to exorcise like the Great Satan) than Americans are. I'm
 >>sorry to see you trying to pass yourself off as Euro, but hey,
 >>it's a free country.

 >Actually, it was a literary conceit, as I'm sure you're aware,
 >patient and gentle Jerry. Nothing more, nothing less. In the
 >exercise of which one can, of course, mention anything one is
 >moved to.

 >I should point out that it is not me who claims millions of
 >Americans have been abducted, but certain leading lights among
 >the American UFO community, who shall go nameless.

 >>More likely, though, you've just confused this thread with
 >>another one.

 >Nope. It says "UFO Ridicule" right up there at the top of the
 >screen.

 >Dennis



Hello Jerome, Dennis

If you're interested in how many possible abductions happen
around the world every hour, every minute, every second and the
logistics of it all - you have to read a document by Rocca
Delillo and Robert Marx.

They are both professional hypnotherapists and long standing UFO
researchers here in Australia who along with Matthew Favaloro
currently co-ordinate 'Australia UFO Encounters' a group of
scientists, psychologists, hypnotherapists and researchers who
are concentrating on the UFO abduction phenomenon here.


'UFOs: The Conveyor Belt - The Real Size of the Problem'
"This Never before released Document will change the way
you view the whole UFO Phenomena."

As presented at the 1998 National Conference:
'Australian Contact - The UFO Reality'
Saturday 12 & Sunday 13 September,
Sydney Australia.


'The Roper Poll', the results according to Dr. David Jacobs (The
Threat p122 to 125) were "Breathtaking."

Results indicated that 8% of the US population had been
abducted, and figures as high as 13% were possible. Because the
results were so astounding Hopkins and Jacobs erred on the side
of caution - and fear - and took a very conservative approach to
the statistics.

They altered their initial criteria for likely abduction and
shrank the 8% probable abduction figure to 2%. Nevertheless,
this still came out to about five million abductees out of the
US population of 250 million.

Extrapolating on a world scale the figure is 120 million people
who have been abducted by aliens. The possible error rate was
low, only 1 to 2%.


'UFOs: The Conveyor Belt...', a document I recommend you read.
It will change the way you think about the abduction phenomenon.

For more information see:

URL http://www.flex.com.au/~eagle1/conb.htm



Ridicule hum??? :>)

Did you know there are quite a few Aussies on this list, and
they've told me they fear to comment and this is due to the so
called "Ridicule"

What we all should and need to remember, we, you & ? There
shouldn't be any ridicule because you, we, don't know everything
there is to know about ufology because if we did, we wouldn't
need to be here now would we? {:>0)

Okay waiting... for... incoming :>) try your best :>) ha!

Remember Sharing is Caring

Regards Diane Harrison
Co Director of The Australian UFO Research Network
Australian Skywatch Director

The Keith Basterfield Network Australasia
E-Mail  tkbnetw@fan.net.au
http://www.fan.net.au/~tkbnetw/new
UFO Australian  Research Network Hot Line Number
1800 77 22 88 Free Call







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                              Re: UFO Ridicule

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 99 10:37:08 PDT
Fwd Date: Sun, 29 Aug 1999 12:20:49 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO Ridicule


 >Date: Sat, 28 Aug 1999 21:23:25 -0500
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
 >From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
 >Subject: Re: UFO Ridicule

 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
 >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >>Subject: Re: UFO Ridicule
 >>Date: Sat, 28 Aug 99 11:33:57 PDT


Hi, Dennis,

 >>Uh, Dennis, what exactly are you talking about? I don't recall
 >>that "millions of abductions in America" entered the discussion.
 >>For that matter, I don't even recall that John and I mentioned
 >>the ETH.  I know _I_ didn't.  The ETH is a subject, in my
 >>observation, that Europeans seem more obsessed with (if only to
 >>try to exorcise like the Great Satan) than Americans are. I'm
 >>sorry to see you trying to pass yourself off as Euro, but hey,
 >>it's a free country.

 >Actually, it was a literary conceit, as I'm sure you're aware,
 >patient and gentle Jerry. Nothing more, nothing less. In the
 >exercise of which one can, of course, mention anything one is
 >moved to.

I guess I'm more baffled than ever.  Remind me to make a point
of holding you to account for an argument you've never made.
I'll assure you -- after you've protested -- that this was just
a "literary conceit."  Always preferable, of course, to
answering _actual_ points.

 >I should point out that it is not me who claims millions of
 >Americans have been abducted, but certain leading lights among
 >the American UFO community, who shall go nameless.

Nor is it I who claim millions of Americans have been abducted.
To the best of my knowledge, John Rimmer hasn't made that claim,
either.  Apparently, though, we're held responsible for anything
anybody has ever said about UFOs anywhere, in any context, that
you find absurd, unbelievable, or merely contrary to your own
view of the possible.

 >>More likely, though, you've just confused this thread with
 >>another one.

 >Nope. It says "UFO Ridicule" right up there at the top of the
 >screen.

Sigh.  And I thought, being a nice guy, that I was giving you an
out.

Cheers,

Jerry Clark









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              'Strange Days...Indeed' - Tonight: Michael David

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 1999 21:21:43 -0400
Fwd Date: Sun, 29 Aug 1999 21:21:43 -0400
Subject: 'Strange Days...Indeed' - Tonight: Michael David




From: UFO UpDates - Toronto

On 'Strange Days... Indeed' tonight, Michael David Hall,
UFO Historian and author of 'UFOs, A Century of Sightings'.

Join co-host Jonn Kares and I along with Mike on 'Strange
Days...Indeed' tonight.

The program starts at 11:00pm EST on

1010 CFRB AM - 50,000 watts 'Clear-Channel'

6070khz Shortwave

and you can listen via Media Player at:

www.cfrb.com/

You'll need to access the site using Internet Explorer since
Media Player seems to choke using any version of Netscape -
thanks Mr. Bill!


To call the program 'live', dial:

On-Air    416-872-1010
           1-800-561-CFRB [all over North America]
           *TALK [local mobiles]


Michael Hall has recently had a book published by Galde Press
entitled, UFOs, A Century of Sightings. All Barnes & Noble Book
stores are now carrying this title and by late summer it will be
available through Amazon.com.

Focusing on possibly the greatest saga of all time, UFOs, A
Century of Sightings documents many fascinating events long
forgotten by today=92s sound bite generation. It is one of very
few books that approaches the subject from a historical
perspective. Casting the story in the aura of the past with the
mystery already inherent in the phenomenon, Mr. Hall has
produced a true to life science fiction thriller. It=92s chilling,
it=92s mystifying, and it=92s amazing because it is a very real part
of our history.

The stories comprising the book are taken from the best sources
available. The first chapters deal with the period from 1896 to
1946 which contain interesting legends and lore. Those years,
however, do produce descriptions of not just the classic image
of the =93flying saucer,=94 but a whole host of strange aerial
phenomena that continues to be seen to this day. When the reader
comes to 1947, a very shocking and more contemporary story
unfolds. That year started the first large =93wave=94 of UFO
sightings. The term UFO, however, was yet to be coined, and in
the early years saucers or discs were the catch words after a
very famous sighting by Kenneth Arnold on June 24th. The
phenomena rocked not only the United States but also the world.
Beginning in force by July 4th of that year, shiny discs were
being seen by hundreds. During that long Independence Day
weekend the sightings dramatically increased in frequency from
day to day. By July 6th, saucer reports made the front page of
the New York Times and would do so for the next three straight
days as the military started flying special =93saucer patrols=94 in
an attempt to intercept one of the mysterious discs. Every major
city and most small towns around North America had sightings
which were followed by similar accounts in other countries.
Military men, scientists, doctors, lawyers, politicians,
engineers, airline pilots, and just everyday citizens were
seeing the strange objects, but what were they? Hall=92s book
takes no position, it simply documents the facts.

The reports climbed to as many as a hundred a day from July 6th
until July 11th. Then after the 11th, they suddenly declined. As
1947 progressed, only a few sightings were made, but fortunately
in the United States the military had laid the groundwork for a
very serious investigation of the incidents. By 1948 UFO
activity picked up and accounted for some spectacular =93classic=94
cases with a great many reports coming close together in 1949.
 From that year through 1951 many notable accounts also came to
light but unfortunately were not properly investigated. For some
unexplainable reason the Air Force had purged its best
aeronautical engineers from the project by that point.

By 1952, the most famous UFO wave unfolded. Incidents became so
numerous in the United States that in July the Democratic
National Convention had to fight for headline space with the
flying saucers=97especially after they appeared over the White
House. Virtually every American newspaper carried the accounts.
Where reporters had previously come to take the subject somewhat
lightly, by 1952 serious stories made page one features and
portrayed notable public figures expressing concern. Fortunately
for historians, Air Force Intelligence was then documenting
dozens of reports per day via a revived investigation under the
very able administration of Captain Edward J. Ruppelt. Ruppelt
popularized the term UFO and served as Chief of Air Force
investigations on the phenomenon until mid 1953.

Shortly thereafter the UFO saga in the United States becomes
much harder to follow. This came about after the 1952 wave
scared the United States government into doing something about
the situation. They couldn=92t stop the sightings, but they did
think they could discourage interest in the subject and prevent
a possible hysteria=97a real concern during that very hot period
of the Cold War. The book, however, does not conclude there but
seeks to detail the reports from the famous UFO waves of 1954,
1957, the mid 60s, and 1973. Amazing encounters occurring up to
present day are also discussed to bring the reader up to date on
the most recent developments.   =09

Michael David Hall has previously authored a biography on
Indiana Senator Henry S. Lane. In The Road To Washington, Rise
of an Indiana Politician, Hall traces the drama that took Lane
from the chairmanship of the first national Republican
Convention in 1856 to his influence four years later in securing
Abraham Lincoln with his party=92s nomination. Dozens of magazine
articles on Indiana history followed that work. Several of those
continued Mr. Hall=92s research on the former Indiana senator,
taking him from a congressional legislator who worked with
Daniel Webster and Henry Clay, to the founder of the Indiana
Republican Party, and then on to a powerful Civil War era
senator. Hall holds a B.A. from Illinois College and an M.A.
from Western Illinois University in American History. In 1984 he
began a museum career at the Illinois State Museum and since
1987 has served as Executive Director of the Montgomery County
Historical Society and its Henry S. Lane Historic Home in
Crawfordsville, Indiana.        =09

Currently the author is working on a new book, Edward J.
Ruppelt, Summer of the Saucers=971952. Noted UFO historian Wendy
Connors is assisting Hall with this project. In fact, Hall and
Connors have teamed up before on a co-authored article dealing
with legendary Air Force UFO investigator Alfred Loedding which
appeared in the December 1998 issue of International UFO
Reporter. In January of 1999 Rose Press came out with a full
length book by Michael Hall and Wendy Connors focusing on Alfred
Loedding and titled Alfred Loedding and the Great Flying Saucer
Wave of 1947.   =09

As he pursues his research Hall finds diversion in aviation
history as a part time guide at the United States Air Force
Museum in Dayton, Ohio. Hall also has interest in the era of the
great steam trains, serving as a director at the Linden,
Indiana, Monon-Nickel Plate Railroad Museum and Historical
Society. Residing in Lafayette, Indiana, with his wife Teresa
and their collection of five pampered stray cats and new baby
boy James Robert--both Mr. and Mrs. Hall developed interests in
that area=92s rich heritage in transportation history spawned by
technological influences from nearby Purdue University. In fact,
Mr. Hall has taken advantage of his proximity to Purdue to
further his studies in history and plans in the near future to
complete his Ph. D. in American History.

Interest in the subject of UFOs began quite by accident while
working at Purdue on a paper analyzing the effects of American
daylight bombing raids on Germany. Mr. Hall then happened across
some obscure UFO accounts filed by allied pilots. Called
foo-fighters in those days, the stories he found fascinated him.
As he came to realize what a huge volume of primary material
existed on UFOs in the nation=92s archives, Hall knew he had an
amazing story to tell.

ebk





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                         CPR-Canada News - 08-29-99

From: Paul Anderson - TMP / CPR-Canada <psa@direct.ca>
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 1999 10:33:02 -0800
Fwd Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 21:51:15 -0400
Subject: CPR-Canada News - 08-29-99




CPR-Canada News
News and Updates from Circles Phenomenon Research Canada

http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Cavern/3310


New Coordinator and Regional Representative for BC; Next Fields
of Dreams Lecture - CONTACT Conference; CBC Radio Interview;
Western Producer Article

August 29, 1999

_____________________________


Editor:
Paul Anderson

_____________________________


A few other quick updates...



NEW COORDINATOR AND REGIONAL REPRESENTATIVE FOR BC

CPR-Canada is pleased to announce the appointment of a new
coordinator and a new regional representative for the province
of British Columbia. There are now CPR representatives in BC,
Alberta, Saskatchewan and Ontario.

CPR-BC Coordinator:
Laura Beauregard. Laura resides with her husband in Dawson
Creek, BC. She is a web researcher for HomeStudy.com, with a
long- standing interest in the phenomenon. She can be reached by
e-mail at:
mailto:lgubbe@sun.pris.bc.ca

CPR-BC Regional Representative - Vancouver Island: Don Witiuk.
He works for Victoria General Hospital as a stationary engineer,
is a "jack of all trades" and has been following the circles
phenomenon for many years. He resides in Victoria on the Island.
His e-mail is:
mailto:the_leadfoot@bc.sympatico.ca

Welcome to both of them, and if you get a chance, drop them an
e-mail and say hi!

Complete listing of CPR-Canada offices:

http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Cavern/3310/cprcoff.html



NEXT FIELDS OF DREAMS LECTURE - CONTACT CONFERENCE

The next presentation in the Fields of Dreams Lecture Series by
Circles Phenomenon Research Canada and The Millennium Project
will be on September 11, 1999 in Ferndale, Washington as part of
the CONTACT (Center for Ontological Action) Conference, "Making
Contact: UFO Sightings and Experiences", along with Peter Davenport
(National UFO Reporting Center), Graham Conway and Bill Oliver
(UFO*BC), Beverly Trout (MUFON Director, Iowa State) and Drs.
Janet Colli, PhD. and Thomas Beck, PhD. (Seattle transpersonal
psychotherapists). Paul Anderson, Director of CPR-Canada, and
Founder and Director of The Millennium Project, will present a
slide show overview and update of the 1998 and 1999 Canadian
crop circles.

The Fields of Dreams Lecture Series is an ongoing series of
presentations by Circles Phenomenon Research Canada on the
continuing crop circle enigma, and is also part of The
Millennium Forum Lecture Series, a public education project of
The Millennium Project. Contact CPR-Canada / TMP for more
information on upcoming lectures or presentations for your group
or event (see below

Location: The Ferndale Senior Center, 1998 Cherry St., Ferndale
(next to Pioneer Park).

Admission (Entire Conference): $7.00

12:00 PM - 6:30 PM (Conference)
2:30 PM (Fields of Dreams presentation)

The CONTACT Conference is also part of Pleiades '99 at nearby
Mt. Baker, hosted by Tom Sanger, from September 9 to September
12.

For further information:

Matthew Thuney
Director
Center for Ontological Action (CONTACT)
360.733.0377 or 800.746.037
mailto:contact@iluminet.com
http://www.iluminet.com/asap/contact

Tom Sanger
Pleiades '99
520.748.0824
mailto:rahseed@webtv.net

CPR-Canada / TMP
604.731.8522
mailto:psa@direct.ca
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Cavern/3310 (CPR-Canada)
http://persweb.direct.ca/psa (TMP)



CBC RADIO INTERVIEW

There will be a CPR-Canada interview regarding current crop
circle updates from Canada, on CBC Radio (the Canadian
equivalent of National Public Radio in the US), on Monday,
August 30, 1999 at 11:40 am (PST).



WESTERN PRODUCER ARTICLE

In a related note, the Western Producer newspaper, one of the
oldest and largest agricultural and farming publications in
Canada, ran a short article (August 19 edition) alerting farmers
to be on the watch for new circles during harvest, particularly
in Saskatchewan, with CPR-Canada contact info provided
(thank you!). Many farmers across western Canada read this
paper. WP also ran an excellent full page article last year on the
circle formations found at Conquest and Outlook, Saskatchewan.

_____________________________


Circle Phenomena in Canada Report Archive 1999:

http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Cavern/3310/1999.html

A reminder for all Canadian subscribers / readers - your
assistance is welcome and needed - ANY reports of other
possible circles this year, please do let us know as soon as
possible! See Reporting and Field Research Guidelines on the
web site for more information:

http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Cavern/3310/reporting.html

_____________________________


CPR-Canada News is the e-mail update service of
Circles Phenomenon Research Canada (affiliate of Circles
Phenomenon Research International), and is published
periodically or as breaking news develops, with the
latest news and information and is available free by
subscription; to be added to or removed from the mailing
list, send your request, including "subscribe CPR-Canada
News" or "unsubscribe CPR-Canada News" and e-mail
address to:

mailto:psa@direct.ca

CPR-Canada welcomes your reports and submissions.
Forward all correspondence to:


CIRCLES PHENOMENON RESEARCH CANADA
Circles Phenomenon Research International

Main Office

Suite 202 - 2086 West 2nd Avenue
Vancouver, BC  V6J 1J4  Canada
Tel / Fax: 604.731.8522
E-Mail: mailto:psa@direct.ca
Web: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Cavern/3310


� Circles Phenomenon Research Canada, 1999






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                              Re: UFO Ridicule

From: John Rimmer <jrimmer@magonia.demon.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 1999 14:07:41 +0100
Fwd Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 21:53:35 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO Ridicule


 >Date: Sat, 28 Aug 1999 21:23:25 -0500
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
 >From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
 >Subject: Re: UFO Ridicule

 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
 >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >>Subject: Re: UFO Ridicule
 >>Date: Sat, 28 Aug 99 11:33:57 PDT

 ><snip>

 >>Uh, Dennis, what exactly are you talking about? I don't recall
 >>that "millions of abductions in America" entered the discussion.
 >>For that matter, I don't even recall that John and I mentioned
 >>the ETH.  I know _I_ didn't.  The ETH is a subject, in my
 >>observation, that Europeans seem more obsessed with (if only to
 >>try to exorcise like the Great Satan) than Americans are. I'm
 >>sorry to see you trying to pass yourself off as Euro

Dennis is definitely not a Euro, he's worth far more than one
dollar and seven cents.

 >>but hey,
 >>it's a free country.

 >Actually, it was a literary conceit, as I'm sure you're aware,
 >patient and gentle Jerry. Nothing more, nothing less. In the
 >exercise of which one can, of course, mention anything one is
 >moved to.

 >I should point out that it is not me who claims millions of
 >Americans have been abducted, but certain leading lights among
 >the American UFO community, who shall go nameless.

 >>More likely, though, you've just confused this thread with
 >>another one.

 >Nope. It says "UFO Ridicule" right up there at the top of the
 >screen.

 >Dennis

We Europeans hate to see Americans fighting amongst themselves,
lest it makes us lose faith in NATO.

Many years ago Dennis was an honored guest at John Dee Cottage,
where a small engraved plaque now commemorates his visit. Locals
at the Charlie Butler still speak in awed whispers of the
strange sasquatchoid creature seen in the picturesquely
overgrown graveyard prowling around Sir Richard's tomb, but I
hold my tongue and let rumour thrive.

I did say I had made my last contribution to this debate, and it
seems to be getting along very nicely without me, but a few
final, final words occur to me.

I have never said that ridicule is not a significant component
of public reactions to both witnesses and UFO investigators. The
fear of ridicule - often in the form of sensationalised tabloid
reporting - prevents many UFO percipients from coming forward
with their claims, or at least ensures that they soon clam up
about them. This is a shame, not just because we might lose a
"good" report, but more importantly because it isolates the
percipient and marginalises their experience.

Ridicule of UFO researchers is rather a different matter. For a
start, UFO research is a totally voluntary matter - it's not a
dirty job and no-one *has* to do it - as Jerry said in a
previous post, "it's not important it's only ufology. So we can
perhaps assume that anyone who heads off into the wilds of
ufology, ETHer, PSHer, pelicanist or good old fence-sitter, is
probably not all that bothered what the great unwashed thinks of
them.

I don't see ETHers as being particularly brave in opposing
conventional wisdom (quite apart from the fact that popular
conventional wisdom at the moment seems more inclined towards
them than not) and I don't ascribe any subconscious motivation
towards martrydom to them. Nor do I see in sceptical ufologists
any particular fear of ridicule. Most people who know of my
interest in the subject probably think I'm a bit barmy to be
involved in it at all, whatever my position. It's like the old
joke:

"You can't come in here, you're a Communist"
"But I'm an anti-Communist"
"I don't care what kind of Communist you are, you still can't
come in".

Despite your claims otherwise, Jerry, I still think you are far
more likely to meet hostility by suggesting that policemen and
airline pilots are liable to give inaccurate and exaggereated
reports of what they see than by suggesting that some UFOs may
be extraterrestrial.

Now I think that is my last word on the matter.
--
John Rimmer
Magonia Magazine
www.magonia.demon.co.uk





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                      Re: 'New?' FBI memo about Roswell

From: Gildas Bourdais <GBourdais@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 1999 14:03:46 EDT
Fwd Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 21:56:31 -0400
Subject: Re: 'New?' FBI memo about Roswell


 >From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@aol.com>
 >Date: Sat, 28 Aug 1999 20:31:04 EDT
 >Subject: Re: 'New?' FBI memo about Roswell
 >To: updates@globalserve.net

To David Rudiak and the List:

Thank you again for your clear analysis on Roswell. As you said:

 >I believe, as Gen. Dubose said in his affidavit, that these are
 >pictures of a weather balloon.   I also believe, as both Dubose
 >and Marcel said, that the weather balloon was a cover story put
 >out by Gen. Ramey.

May I add this :

According to the testimonies of General DuBose, Major marcel and
flight engineer Robert Porter, there were two separate flights
bringing debris to Fort Worth that day :

- The one described by Porter (and Marcel himself), with Marcel
and other officers, carrying small, very light, well wrapped
boxes ;

- The one described by DuBose, bringing the balloon debris in a
large unsealed canvas pouch. DuBose was there, he did not see
Marcel in that plane, he carried himself the bag to Ramey's
office and had it displayed on the floor. He stated very clearly
that he never saw the real debris!

You leave the door open to the possibility that some real debris
might have been mixed to the weather balloon. This is nice of
you, but it seems very dubious. I have looked at the details
sent by RPIT, I have looked at the CD Rom of Stan Friedman, and
I have seen nothing peculiar there.

On the other hand, I agree that the message held by General
Ramey is another matter.

Regards to all.

Gildas Bourdais





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                     Re: Of Poop, Gas, Birds And Bull...

From: Marty Murray <bubastis@warplink.com>
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 1999 14:00:05 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 21:59:24 -0400
Subject: Re: Of Poop, Gas, Birds And Bull...


 >From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >Date: Sun, 29 Aug 1999 01:21:44 EDT
 >Subject: Of Poop, Gas, Birds And Bull...
 >To: updates@globalserve.net

 >Been doing some thinking.  Been wondering why it is Errol
 >Bruce-Knapp prints half the stuff he does ... mine included.
 >Been wondering what people think about my silly fossifies and
 >Gesundt's sillier poop.  But most of all I been wondering why it
 >is that some folks out there haven't seen the hypocrisy in their
 >"truth."

 >I aint no philosopher.  Got me but _one_ Ph.D. and working on
 >another one.  I think I've been abducted only because I carry
 >with me memories of exactly that.  Know I've seen triangular
 >shaped UFOs because when I did, others did as well.

 >Then I read the slap happy pap some of you write under the
 >facade of truth, talking about pelicans, balloons and other
 >windbaggery and I begin to wonder; maybe it's because people
 >like to read their stuff coming back at 'em from the other side
 >of the Internet.  Maybe it's just that seeing it on their own
 >screens ain't enough.  Maybe.

 >But then I wonder, well, if that's true, then why not suffer
 >yourselves to make some sense, so that some jerk like Gesundt
 >doesn't hafta spout nonsense in defense of the real truth.  You
 >know, he only does that because he hopes to show you people how
 >silly you are acting.

Hey Jamey!

Awesome post, man! You hit the nail right on the head!

Thanks for saying something very real and very moving for those
of us who are no longer foolish enough to be still asking, "Are
they really here?" We gave up all that nonsense years ago. Now
we just want to know who they are, where they're from, and most
importantly, _why_ are they here and why are they doing these
things to us?

These intellectual types can go on and on with their elaborate
theories, pontificating from their armchairs, but that doesn't
change the fact that these things are really happening, that
these beings are here, and that they are doing the things that
people have described over and over again.

That's the truth and that's the reality. Period!

Take care, Jim!

Marty





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                              Re: UFO Ridicule

From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 1999 13:41:38 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 22:02:58 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO Ridicule


 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
 >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >Subject: Re: UFO Ridicule
 >Date: Sun, 29 Aug 99 10:37:08 PDT

<snip>

 >Sigh.  And I thought, being a nice guy, that I was giving you an
 >out.

 >Cheers,

 >Jerry Clark







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                              Re: UFO Ridicule

From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 1999 16:44:42 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 22:06:57 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO Ridicule


 >From: Diane Harrison - Keith Basterfield Network <tkbnetw@fan.net.au>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
 >Subject: Re: UFO Ridicule
 >Date: Sun, 29 Aug 1999 21:58:41 +1000

<snip>

 >Hello Jerome, Dennis

 >If you're interested in how many possible abductions happen
 >around the world every hour, every minute, every second and the
 >logistics of it all - you have to read a document by Rocca
 >Delillo and Robert Marx.

 >They are both professional hypnotherapists and long standing UFO
 >researchers here in Australia who along with Matthew Favaloro
 >currently co-ordinate 'Australia UFO Encounters' a group of
 >scientists, psychologists, hypnotherapists and researchers who
 >are concentrating on the UFO abduction phenomenon here.

 >'UFOs: The Conveyor Belt - The Real Size of the Problem'
 >"This Never before released Document will change the way
 >you view the whole UFO Phenomena."

 >As presented at the 1998 National Conference:
 >'Australian Contact - The UFO Reality'
 >Saturday 12 & Sunday 13 September,
 >Sydney Australia.

 >'The Roper Poll', the results according to Dr. David Jacobs (The
 >Threat p122 to 125) were "Breathtaking."

 >Results indicated that 8% of the US population had been
 >abducted, and figures as high as 13% were possible. Because the
 >results were so astounding Hopkins and Jacobs erred on the side
 >of caution - and fear - and took a very conservative approach to
 >the statistics.

 >They altered their initial criteria for likely abduction and
 >shrank the 8% probable abduction figure to 2%. Nevertheless,
 >this still came out to about five million abductees out of the
 >US population of 250 million.

 >Extrapolating on a world scale the figure is 120 million people
 >who have been abducted by aliens. The possible error rate was
 >low, only 1 to 2%.

 >'UFOs: The Conveyor Belt...', a document I recommend you read.
 >It will change the way you think about the abduction phenomenon.

<snip>

 >Regards Diane Harrison
 >Co Director of The Australian UFO Research Network
 >Australian Skywatch Director


Hi, Diane

Actually, the problem, or the numbers, if you prefer, is quite a
bit "worse" than this, as I pointed out in an article in the
early 90s published in David Gotlib's Bulletin of Anomalous
Experience.

For example, and to use the above figures, five million
abductions in America refers only to the supposed number of
abductees, not actual abductions. As certain leading lights of
the American UFO community are always reminding us, there is an
additional complication here, namely, that abductions reportedly
(and repeatedly) take place over _time_. So if five million
Americans have been abducted ten times each over the last 50
years, say, once every five years, we're now looking at 50
million American abductions alone.

Depending on whose figures you use, America represents about 3.6
per cent of the world's population, or something like one
twenty-secondth (if that's a word). In other words, to determine
worldwide abductions over the last half-century, you would need
to multiply 50 million by 22, which comes to something like 1.1
_billion_.

I think we can all agree that a billion is a rather BIG number.

I suggest that it's also an unbelievable big number.

At the time, I did the math and came up with something like, if
memory serves (someone else can do the numbers this time), this
equating to 2,500 abductions every hour, 24 hours a day, seven
days a week, 365 days (or 52 weeks) a year, for 50 years, no
time off for holidays, no overtime pay. Clearly, the aliens,
whoever they are, haven't been unionized yet!

My mind boggled when I tried to imagine the logistics of an
alien abduction invasion on such a global scale. How many aliens
would be required for each abduction, how many ships would have
to be in the air at any given time, ie., hour? How much
terrestrial grain would such an alien population have to
consume, where would the abductors have hidden that much poop
and so on? But then I remembered that aliens don't eat or
defecate like we do, so at least _that_ logistical problem was
(more or less) solved. And thank God they haven't developed a
taste for single malt scotches, lest the entire planet go
begging.

At the same time my hat goes off to the men and women of MJ-12.
What hours they must be putting in to plug up every leak in the
global cover up dike! Never before have so few bamboozled so
many so successfully! You'd think the FBI, CIA and NSA would be
raising hell over MJ-12 siphoning off all the good college
graduates.

In the end (my mind resists being boggled more than once in a
day on average), I concluded that the numbers implied by the
Roper Report and extrapolated worldwide (and there is no
compelling reason _not_ to, unless one wants to somehow argue
that the aliens simply prefer Americans, say, to Indonesians)
were unsupportable.

In the same vein, the question of why the aliens would _need_ to
conduct so many physical examinations and extractions (and so
crudely, at that) has never been adequately addressed. Do they
suffer some sort of extraterrestrial compulsive-obsessive
disorder? Are they constantly misplacing their lab samples and
having to redo an abduction?

In the end, I concluded that anyone who spends more than 30
seconds a day considering such numbers to be an accurate (or
half-accurate or even semi-feasible) reflection of physical
reality and world history simply doesn't inhabit the same planet
I do. But, hey, that's just me.

The next time some UFO innocents start wondering why ufology is
subjected to ridicule, however, they might do well to first
consider the numbers, which don't presently add up.

Lose the numbers and we might be able to start talking sense.
Otherwise, in this, the Age of Dirty Laundry, the Roper Report
figures amount to little more than an embarrassing dirt ring
around the collar of ufology. It's OK to wear them around the
house or tomato patch, but not something you'd want to be seen
with in public. Unless you're prepared to answer each and every
question about them. Were you aware, for example, that the poll
was recently repeated and that percentages of same responding
positively were down almost across the board? But what kind of
publicity and acknowledgement has _that_ finding received within
ufology? Virtually none.

Go figure.

Dennis









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               Re: Research Proposal - Hypnotic Suggestibility

From: Tim D. Brigham <TBrigham@ksinc.net>
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 1999 21:46:18 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 22:09:51 -0400
Subject: Re: Research Proposal - Hypnotic Suggestibility


 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
 >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >Subject: Re: Research Proposal - Hypnotic Suggestibility
 >Date: Wed, 25 Aug 99 19:07:12 PDT

 >>From: Tim D. Brigham <TBrigham@ksinc.net>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Research Proposal - Hypnotic Suggestibility
 >>Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 17:55:13 -0500

<snip>

 >The participants are largely neutrals in the
 >abduction debate (as you are not, I gather), and most are
 >scientifically trained. They are determined to conduct the
 >experiment in a methodologically proper manner, so that the
 >results -- whatever they are -- actually have a chance of
 >_meaning_ something. None of them has a stake in the outcome,
 >and the results, when available, will be published in the
 >appropriate forum.

 >Jerry Clark

Hello Jerry,

I hope you are right regarding the intentions of those involved.
I usually don't bother to argue such points, but in truth, I do
consider myself a neutral in this debate. While I do not believe
that anything is impossible, evidence I have seen simply has not
convinced me that physical abductions are occurring, without
doubt, on either a small or large scale.

Again, I do not think that either of these scenarios are
impossible, I simply do not think either has been sufficiently
proven - especially "The Roper Poll" scenario (the latter).

I hold the opinion that _much_ of the abduction subject is the
result of PSH processes- however that is an opinion which I am
willing and ready to have proven wrong, and one which I do not
hold passionately as The Truth (tm).

I also hold the opinion that some of the abduction data is
probably the result of something that we genuinely do not
understand, be it ETs, ultraterrestrials, whatever. My point
merely is that one can have an opinion on what the data shows
(pro or con) and be neutral, as long as one is willing to accept
it if and when that opinion is proven to be incorrect, and that
one can still think that _some_ of this stuff is genuinely
mysterious and that some is bunk without buying into every
argument offered from either side.

When I hang around the believers, I'm the token skeptic, and
when surrounded by skeptics, I'm the tru believer. I'm really
neither, but I accept that playing the role of The Devil's
Advocate will often make one appear to be that way. But really,
if anyone wants to know my position, they can ask. They dont
have to assume, if they decide to do so, who the hell cares?

Best,
Tim
Skeptical Believer and heretic among heretics.


)+(
TBrigham@ksinc.net
http://zap.to/DevilsAdvocate  The Devil's Advocate
http://zap.to/MindPhuck  Operation MindPhuck
"Better to go hungry than to feast on lies."
)+(







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                     Re: Of Poop, Gas, Birds And Bull...

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 1999 22:45:07 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 22:24:41 -0400
Subject: Re: Of Poop, Gas, Birds And Bull...


 >From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >Date: Sun, 29 Aug 1999 01:21:44 EDT
 >Subject: Of Poop, Gas, Birds And Bull...
 >To: updates@globalserve.net

 >Been doing some thinking. Been wondering why it is Errol
 >Bruce-Knapp prints half the stuff he does ... mine included.
 >Been wondering what people think about my silly fossifies and
 >Gesundt's sillier poop. But most of all I been wondering why it
 >is that some folks out there haven't seen the hypocrisy in their
 >"truth."

 >I aint no philosopher. Got me but _one_ Ph.D. and working on
 >another one. I think I've been abducted only because I carry
 >with me memories of exactly that. Know I've seen triangular
 >shaped UFOs because when I did, others did as well.>

 >Then I read the slap happy pap some of you write under the
 >facade of truth, talking about pelicans, balloons and other
 >windbaggery and I begin to wonder; maybe it's because people
 >like to read their stuff coming back at 'em from the other side
 >of the Internet. Maybe it's just that seeing it on their own
 >screens ain't enough. Maybe. >

 >But then I wonder, well, if that's true, then why not suffer
 >yourselves to make some sense, so that some jerk like Gesundt
 >doesn't hafta spout nonsense in defense of the real truth. You
 >know, he only does that because he hopes to show you people how
 >silly you are acting.


In Defense Of Silliness

Yes, Gesundt, I understand the point out are making through that
fog of Gripple and Prozac (perhaps Nembutal and even Soma?)
I have been loath to get into a big discussion of 'Why The Hell
Do We Do This....?'

But, here it is.

Why in heck do I spend so much time defending poor long-gone
Kenneth against the onslaught of The Birds? Why should I care
whether or not Lonnie saw a lot of hot air supporting a balloon?
I certainly wouldn't care except for

(a) these cases have been brought up by others (that's how
     they were selected for discussion...

(b) they are cases I have studied

(c) they are cases which seem quite solid from my perspective
     and, finally,

(d) wouldn't in be nice if there were at least _one_ case that
     everyone (barring Uncle Phil) could _agree_ on?

This last really is the crux of the issue. Let a thousans
prosaic explanations bloom. Most of th blooms will be
dandelions, susceptible to Occam's Lawnmower (wow! Bet You heard
that here first, folks) giving a close shave to the field of
blooms.

But perhaps one prosaic explanation will seem, to someone who is
skeptical, to have merit and therefore should be run through
the ringer. Perhaps said prosaic explanation seems silly to
those who have made up their minds, but nevertheless it is the
job of scientists to defend each potential explanation up to the
point where accepting th explanation makes less sense than
accepting an unexplained case.

Really, what we want is a totally _inexplicable_ case that
everyone can agree on. We can only know if it is truly
unexplainable by trying all conceivable explanations, even the
seemingly silly ones.

It does get a bit tedious when the prosaic proposer seems so
wedded to the explanation that he/she can't see when it has bit
the dust. Example: in the Arnold case.... draw a map...
damnit... if you think you can make pelicans stick in any way
other than running into them with the airplane! And it does seem
that some proposer appear to be immune to logic. When that
happens we just have to turn away and say... oh well, didn't
convince that guy.

One real bother, of course, is when someone posts for all to see
a explanation which, under analysis, seems to be garbage.

Unfortunately 99.999 percent of the people won't realize the
failure of the prosaic explanation (sounds like a good title for
an article) and will assume the case has been explained. CASE IN
POINT: which has not been recently discussed, is New Zealand,
December 1978. "Venus", "Jupiter" , moonlight off the breasts of
mating mutton birds (the "pelicanization of New Zealand"),
Unburned Meteorites (by Sir Bernard Lovell of Jodrell Bank
Observatory in England), "Drug Smugglers" and last but not
least, "Squid Boats" was the final cry of the skeptics. So, most
people who have heard of this series of sightings assume it was
explained because the "explanations" were published worldwide.

I had to agree that squid boats could be as bright as the object
seen by the crew, detected on radar and filmed for many minutes.

One tiny problem.

The filmed showed no reflection in the water. Squid boats use
very bright lights to lure squid to the surface at night for
netting. (Here we learn more about squid boats than we EVER
wanted to know.) The lights are about 10 ft from th water.
Photos taken from aircraft at a distance show the boat and the
reflection in the water. Now, I figured that a squid boat could
produce NO reflection that would show up in the film if it were
fishing above 3,000 ft. However, that has not deterred the most
avid explainer who knew anything about this case, one PJK, from
publishing SB as the explanation in his 1983 boo, UFOS, The
Public Deceived (aptly named, since he deceived the public with
his "explanations").

So, where are we?

Down in the ditches slugging it out with the data, arguing for
and against the accuracy of nitty gritty details, realizing that
hindsight is 20-20 and witness are always guilty of (a) not
perceiving everything, (b) not recalluing everything they
perceived, and (c) not telling accurately everything they
recall, or "biasing" the recall with interpretation.

That means we end up arguing seemingly silly things such as,
could Arnold, a guy with 4,000 hours of flying time, mistakenly
compare the "bright flash" from a white pelican with the "bright
flash" from polished metal; could Arnold over a period of about
2 minutes fail to notice wings flapping; could Arnold, over a
period of two minutes (or so) fail to realize that these
"objects" were not 20 miles away but probably less than a mile
at their closest, and finally, could Arnold fail to notice that
they were traveling more slowly than he? (Draw a map)

The bottom line is that someone is going to be beaten into
submission.... either an explanation will be accepted as
"possible" or "probable" or it will end up as "impossible."
IF there is agreement on impossible, then we should publish
the result saying that hard nosed skeptics pulled out all the
stops in their organ of explanation and made a lot of noise
but were ultimately shut down. On the other hand, if a case can be
shown to be explainable with at least reasonable certainty, then
we can go on to something else while publishing an explanation
which (I would presume) is defensible (as opposed to explanations'
that may already by out there which are indefensible).

The idea that some "explanations:" are indefensible is well
illustrated by the sheer _number_ of explanations offered for
the Arnold case.

If any _one_ of them had been defensible the others would not have
been needed.

Thus, for example. we can only assume (wrongly I bet) that Klass
and Keay Davidson thought long and hard about all the previous
explanations offered for the Arnold sighting and decided that
all previous explanations were indefensible so a new one was
needed, and hence they suggested meteor (in June, 1997). Of
course, this explanation is as silly as the others, from my
persepective anyway, so I can only conclude that they really
didn't study _anything_ about the Arnold sighting and their
suggested explanation for it. (Davidson's argument that meteors
are more likely in June is about as solid as a swiss cheese in
this case.)

Anyway, despite the time it takes I will be willing to maintain
a discussion/argument with rational skeptics in spite of
the apparent silliness in some cases in th hopes of getting
a conscensus on _something_... after all





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   Aug > Aug 30

               Re: Research Proposal - Hypnotic Suggestibility

From: Tim D. Brigham <TBrigham@ksinc.net>
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 1999 22:05:29 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 22:29:25 -0400
Subject: Re: Research Proposal - Hypnotic Suggestibility


 >From: Jenny Randles <nufon@currantbun.com>
 >To: <updates@globalserve.net>
 >Subject: Re: Research Proposal - Hypnotic Suggestibility
 >Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 11:39:32 +0100

<snip>

Thanks again for the thoughtful response. I am still mulling
over the FPP portion of the proposal, and how to handle the
subject. I think you are right that FPP as such, may not be the
answer to any portion of the problem.

What I am still trying to figure out though, is how to handle
examining the traits that may make up this APP and how to
measure them.

The ICMI (FPP test) would probably still be useful, as many of
the traits which may be part of an APP are measured on it, as we
have previously discussed.

What I would like to do is find out specifically which questions
have been found to correlate with paranormal/UFO experiences and
possibly use those questions as part of an APP scale, along with
questions drawn from other sources.

I plan to do some more research on the subject, including
looking again at the work of K Ring and others, as well as
examining other personality scales which may possibly be
related. However, to be meaningful, the APP topic will probably
deserve a tremendous amount of discussion and research in its
own right, and I am already pushing the limit as to amount of
stuff I can reasonably examine in one study.

What I may end up having to do is analyze the ICMI
questions/results individually to see _which_ questions are
related to paranormal reports and suggestibility, and use that
data later as part of possible APP research. Ah well, I never
expected easy answers.

I do very much appreciate the discussion, as hopefully it will
lead to something which is more relevant and valid.

Thanks and take care,
Tim

)+(
TBrigham@ksinc.net
http://zap.to/DevilsAdvocate  The Devil's Advocate
http://zap.to/MindPhuck  Operation MindPhuck
"Better to go hungry than to feast on lies."
)+(





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                    Re: Daylight Flying Triangle Footage

From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net>
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 00:44:27 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 22:31:23 -0400
Subject: Re: Daylight Flying Triangle Footage


 >Date: Sun, 29 Aug 1999 00:27:26 -0500
 >From: Amy Hebert <yelorose@swbell.net>
 >Subject: Re: Daylight Flying Triangle Footage
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>

 >>Date: Sat, 28 Aug 1999 16:05:44 -0400
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
 >>From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Daylight Flying Triangle Footage

 >>Also, I don't think it's fair or accurate to call this object a
 >>"triangle craft." What the single frames show is three slightly
 >>fuzzy white spheres in a close -triangular formation.- It's just
 >>a little premature to label the object a "triangle" or even a
 >>"craft" at this point.

 >Hi, John.

 >Your description reminded me of something that showed up in a
 >photograph I took on Ship Island in the Gulf of Mexico last year
 >(12 miles off shore from Biloxi, Mississippi).  Right after I
 >took the picture, I video taped the area (I always take too many
 >photographs and not enough video or too much video and not
 >enough photos so now I do both at the same time).  It looked
 >weird - like three spheres close together - but I don't know
 >what it was.

Although the resolution wasn't the best for purposes of
enlargement, it's an interesting object. Can you send me a copy
of the photo? I'll be able to scan it into my mac and blow it up
in Photoshop to see if it's possible to discern what you
photographed. (Because it was over a beach) I want to see if it
is one of those hang glider/parachute thingys that people fly
around with at lakes and beaches. I don't think so though
because I saw no evidence of a tow cable or any other air to
ground tether. Interesting shot Amy.

 >maybe it was a seagull
 >but doesn't look like the seagulls in the video.

Nope. Doesn't look like a bird at all.

 >This post, the photograph and your comment brought it to mind.
 >(I'd forgotten about it.)

Glad to have jogged your memory! The photo that you posted as a
result is curious and a little 'reward' for everyone who follows
the list. Thanx for sharing and for posting it to the list.

Let me know privately about my getting a copy of the photo! I
promise to send you copies of any enlargements I can make.

Regards,

John Velez

________________________________________________
                                  jvif@spacelab.net
                     ABDUCTION INFORMATION CENTER
                             http://www.if-aic.com/
  "Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind."
________________________________________________






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                     Re: Of Poop, Gas, Birds And Bull...

From: Sean Jones <tedric@tedric.demon.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 10:45:27 +0100
Fwd Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 22:33:45 -0400
Subject: Re: Of Poop, Gas, Birds And Bull...


 >From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >Date: Sun, 29 Aug 1999 01:21:44 EDT
 >Subject: Of Poop, Gas, Birds And Bull...
 >To: updates@globalserve.net

Good morning to you James

 >Been doing some thinking.

You wanna be careful bout that stuff, mighty iffy if you ask me.
<g>

 >Been wondering why it is Errol
 >Bruce-Knapp prints half the stuff he does ... mine included.
 >Been wondering what people think about my silly fossifies and
 >Gesundt's sillier poop.  But most of all I been wondering why it
 >is that some folks out there haven't seen the hypocrisy in their
 >"truth."

You know, I was wondering the same thung meself.

 >I aint no philosopher.  Got me but _one_ Ph.D. and working on
 >another one.

Hi Doc <g> I aint got one, got me a few school qualifications
thingy's but no doctorate cos me be a bit thick loike.

 >I think I've been abducted only because I carry
 >with me memories of exactly that.  Know I've seen triangular
 >shaped UFOs because when I did, others did as well.

Its always good to know that one is not losing his/her own
sanity, isn't it. And having someone else witness what you just
saw helps re-affirm ones own sanity.

 >And Frank Herbert, who was a true friend and I swear, had
 >something of the features of Muad Dib. In Dune, he developed a
 >test for someone's humanity.  Presumably, his theory (in the
 >book) was that some people were human and some were not.  If not
 >human, then they were animals and destroyed by the Gom Jabbar,
 >the needle of death.  The test was pain and loneliness.  If you
 >could take the pain and the loneliness together without gnawing
 >off the offending limb, you were allowed to live. Yup, Frank was
 >a friend of Jamey.

Did you know him personally? I have read all seven of the Dune
series of books and was impressed by all of them. How many
people here could say that they have the presence of mind to
control themselves. We have a quote over here that might just be
applicable. "Stress, the stuff brought on by the body when the
mind overrides the basic impulse to beat the living sh*t out of
someone who really deserves it"

 >Perhaps the same theory should be applied to researchers. With a
 >twist. Place the hand in the box containing the pain generator.
 >If the researcher removes his or her hand, the Gom Jabbar at the
 >neck will cause an immediate abduction experience... a real one.

I for one am not offering to take this test I'm afraid James,
does that make me less of a man??

 >That should separate the jerks from the clerks.

I agree.

 >J. Jaime Gesundt

--
     In an infinite universe infinitely anything is possible.
                        Sean Jones
  Homepage--http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Zone/1745/index.htm
             UFO page--http://www.tedric.demon.co.uk/





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   Aug > Aug 31

                          RPIT: Photograph Example

From: Neil Morris <neil@adm1.ph.man.ac.uk>
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 19:57:53 -0700
Fwd Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 11:01:49 -0400
Subject: RPIT: Photograph Example


[Note: Image files are not posted to the UFO UpDates Archive
   @Ufomind.com - subscription has its advantages --ebk]

Dear All,

In my response to Dennis I made reference to examples of
anomalies within the debris itself which force me to question
the explanation of the debris given by the USAF in their various
reports. I attach and again beg Errol's indulgance in forwarding
a composit image showing the items I mentioned.

The upper of the two images shows what I call the "cable loom"
and is seen inside the left circle, the beam it appears to be
attached to is seen in the right circle appearing from the foil
sheeting it itself seems to be attached to.  A curious thing
_if_ this is a cable loom, is that in a "normal" loom of cables
as the individual cables bunch together the loom gets thicker,
if you note in this case the opposite happens, the "loom" seems
to thin out!.

The lower image shows circled the open end of one of the
flattened tube like structures containing a frame, the two ends
of the frame can be spotted to have "blobs" on the wire ends?.

I havn't again mentioned or displayed the contentious subject of
"symbols", I'd be happy to post samples if asked.

Neil.

  Untitled-1.jpg

-------------------------------------------------------
                      Neil Morris@Home.