UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
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   Apr

                          UFO UpDates Mailing List
                                  Apr 2000

  Apr 1:

   Re: PRG/SGB/X-PPAC [was: Re: Sarah McClendon] - Steven Kaeser [90]
   An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947 - Ed Gehrman [95]
   Art Bell Resigns - Official Statements - UFO UpDates - Toronto [151]
   01-04-00 - NASA Peeps Abducted? - Brian Cuthbertson [8]
   Re: 10-25-89 'Sudbury Star' Story - Michel M. Deschamps [40]
   Archived Newsletters Available at Cydonian - Mac Tonnies [12]
   Taliferro County, Georgia? - Todd Lemire [29]
   Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947 - Stan Friedman [51]
   Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947 - Larry Hatch [37]
   07-23-52 - Talk Startles Crowd - Kenny Young [84]
   NASA's Goldin Address To JPL Employees - Sue Kovios [40]
   Reed Hoax - Stop Kicking a Dead Alien - Royce J. Myers III [41]
   Re: Art Bell Resigns - Official Statements - John Pierson [34]
   Re: 01-04-00 - NASA Peeps Abducted? - Lan Fleming [16]
   Tonight On 'Strange Days... Indeed': Mike Woods & Grant - "Strange
   Days... Indeed" [77]

  Apr 2:

   Northumberland, UK 'UFO' - Todd Lemire [55]
   Re: Art Bell Resigns - Official Statements - Jim Mortellaro [88]
   Tonight On 'Strange Days... Indeed': Mike Woods & Grant - "Strange
   Days... Indeed" [77]
   The 'Thought Screen' - Champ Bradford [38]
   Jeff Rense Weekly E-News 4-1-00 - Rense E-News [253]
   Beer Company to 'Buy' Marfa 'Lites'! - Todd Lemire [12]
   Alfred's Odd Ode #342 - Alfred Lehmberg [107]

  Apr 3:

   Re: Beer Company to 'Buy' Marfa 'Lites'! - Jim Mortellaro [20]
   Re: The 'Thought Screen' - GT McCoy [66]
   TMP News: Weekly Briefing 4.3.00 - Paul Anderson [55]
   'Batmobile' on Mars - Sean Jones [25]
   Re: The 'Thought Screen' - Jim Mortellaro [59]
   Beer & Quotes [was: Re: Beer Company to 'Buy' - EBK [31]

  Apr 4:

   Blather 03-04-00: The Event - Daev Walsh [171]
   Re: Beer & Quotes - Todd Lemire [122]
   Filer's Files #13 -- 2000 - George A. Filer [448]
   Re: Jeff Rense Weekly E-News 4-1-00 - Robert Gates [53]
   Re: The 'Thought Screen' - Michael Menkin [63]
   Re: Hoagland on Art Bell - 3-15-00 - Robert Gates [39]
   Re: Cydonia: Where We Stand - Mac Tonnies [15]
   Discovering the Real Story of the Apollo Journey - Steven L. Wilson
   [45]

  Apr 5:

   Canadian 'Levitation' Researcher Busted - Again - ebk [75]
   Re: Hoagland on Art Bell - 3-15-00 - Ron Cecchini [20]
   Re: Beer & Quotes - Jim Mortellaro [205]
   Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947 - Ron Cecchini [17]
   [canufo] Recent Yukon UFO Sighting - Martin Jasek [89]
   Note from Brazil - Brian Cuthbertson [86]
   Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947 - Chris Kelly [20]
   Re: A&E's Investigative Reports Tonight - UFOs - Ron Cecchini [5]

  Apr 6:

   UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 5, Number 14 - John Hayes [536]
   Re: Discovering the Real Story of the Apollo - Wendy Connors [24]
   Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947 - Ed Gehrman [35]
   Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947 - Robert Gates [19]

  Apr 7:

   Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947 - Roger Annette Evans
   [55]
   Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947 - Ed Gehrman [27]
   Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947 - Bob Young [16]
   New Cydonia Images Released - Blair Cummins [10]
   Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947 - Georgina Bruni [32]
   Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947 - Steven Kaeser [15]
   Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947 - Steven Kaeser [48]
   UFO Desk - Keyboard/Voice/Video Chat - Paul Williams [23]
   'European Journal Of UFO Studies' - Edoardo Russo [72]
   Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947 - Ed Gehrman [68]
   Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947 - Royce J. Myers III
   [55]
   Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947 - Ed Gehrman [25]
   Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947 - Roger Prokic [16]
   Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947 - Roger Evans [55]
   Re: UFOs over San Juan, Puerto Rico - Dr. Virgilio Sanchez-Ocejo [57]
   Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947 - Greg Sandow [15]
   Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947 - David Furlotte [49]
   Voyager Newsletter - Issue No. 10 - James Easton [463]
   Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947 - Steven W. Kaeser [18]
   Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947 - Steven W. Kaeser [18]

  Apr 8:

   Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947 - Brian Cuthbertson
   [21]
   Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947 - Sue and John
   Strickland [28]
   Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947 - Dennis Stacy [23]
   Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947 - Bob Young [32]
   Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947 - ed gehrman [18]
   Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947 - Michel M. Deschamps
   [60]
   Re: Voyager Newsletter - Issue No. 10 - Jim Mortellaro [32]
   Audio OnLine - 01 - 04-08-2000 - UFO UpDates - Toronto [12]
   Re: Voyager Newsletter - David Rudiak [82]
   Re: Alfred's Odd Ode #343 - Alfred Lehmberg [99]

  Apr 9:

   Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947 - Steven W. Kaeser [68]
   Arnold's Sighting And Ufology's First Law - Jan Aldrich [81]
   Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947 - Ed Gehrman [75]
   Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947 - Ed Gehrman [131]
   Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947 - William Sawers [61]
   Re: Voyager Newsletter - Issue No. 10 - Bruce Maccabee [33]
   30th Conference on Anomalous Phenomena - Diane Harrison [72]
   Family Vacation Leads To Questions - Blair Cummins [88]
   Yukon Fireball Mystery Endures - Patricia Mason [101]
   Re: Voyager Newsletter - Stan Friedman [62]
   AUFON VOL. 2 No.8 Mars: Planet Without A Face - Stefan Duncan [2]
   Tonight On 'Strange Days... Indeed': L. Scott Miller - "Strange Days...
   Indeed" [52]
   Francis Gary Powers Jr - UFO Museum Lecture - UFO UpDates - Toronto
   [13]
   An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947 - Roger Evans [42]
   Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947 - Roger Evans [34]
   Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947 - Brian Cuthbertson
   [19]
   Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947 - Tim Haley [50]
   Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947 - Greg Sandow [23]
   Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947 - Asgeir W. Skavhaug
   [67]
   Re: Voyager Newsletter - Issue No. 10 - David Rudiak [321]
   Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947 - Ed Gehrman [43]
   Auto Immune Diseases With The Abduction Phenomena - Jim Mortellaro [12]
   Re: Voyager Newsletter - Issue No. 10 - Bruce Maccabee [49]
   Re: 30th Conference on Anomalous Phenomena - Bruce Maccabee [42]
   MAGONIA Monthly Supplement #25 - Mark Pilkington [314]
   Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947 - Sue Strickland [90]
   Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947 - Roger Evans [36]

  Apr 10:

   Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947 - Ed Gehrman [22]
   Re: Arnold's Sighting And Ufology's First Law - Bruce Maccabee [33]
   Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947 - Robert Gates [112]
   Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947 - Roger Prokic [26]
   Re: Voyager Newsletter - Issue No. 10 - GT McCoy [55]
   Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947 - Bob Young [13]
   Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947 - Serge Salvaille [32]
   Filer's Files #14 -- 2000 - George A. Filer [480]
   Re: Auto Immune Diseases With The Abduction - Kathy Hotchner [320]
   Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947 - Ed Gehrman [69]
   1947 UFO Mishaps - Kenny Young [12]
   Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947 - Roger Evans [53]
   Re: Auto Immune Diseases With The Abduction - Mac Tonnies [38]
   Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947 - Josh Goldstein [88]
   Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947 - James Easton [161]
   Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947 - Roger Evans [55]

  Apr 11:

   Sighting 04-10-00 - Champ Bradford [32]
   Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947 - Dennis Stacy [28]
   Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947 - Royce J. Myers III
   [18]
   Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947 - James Easton [165]
   Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947 - Sharon Kardol [50]
   Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947 - Sharon Kardol [31]
   On A Planet Far, Far Away..... - Jim Mortellaro [60]
   Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947 - Michel M. Deschamps
   [42]
   Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947 - Neil Morris [60]
   Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947 - Larry Hatch [36]
   Re: Auto Immune Diseases With The - Roy J Hale [33]
   Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947 - Tom Carey [52]
   Re: Filer's Files #14 -- 2000 - Tom Carey TCarey1947@aol.com [68]
   Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947 - Neil Morris [46]
   Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947 - Steven Kaeser [38]
   Re: Auto Immune Diseases With The Abduction - Jim Mortellaro [31]
   Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947 - James Bond Johnson
   [23]
   Another Breakthrough On Roswell! - Wendy Christensen [37]
   Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947 - Stan Friedman [61]
   Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947 - Stan Friedman [37]
   NASA Flying Disk - Brian Cuthbertson [6]
   Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947 - Bob Young Young [22]
   Re: Another Breakthrough On Roswell! - Bob Young [15]
   Re: Auto Immune Diseases With The Abduction - Susan Mann [35]
   Re: NASA Flying Disk - Ron Cecchini [16]

  Apr 12:

   [lunascan] Moon's Ruin-Like Formations - Survey - Alexey V. Arkhipov
   [29]
   Re: Arnold Pelicans - Voyager Newsletter - Brad Sparks [350]
   Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947 - SharonK [27]
   Re: Filer's Files #14 -- 2000 - Stan Friedman [42]
   Re: Another Breakthrough On Roswell! - Stan Friedman [50]
   Re: NASA Flying Disk - Stan Friedman [21]
   Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947 - James Easton [164]
   Last Lines Of Ramey Message [was: Re: Filer's - David Rudiak [110]
   Re: NASA Flying Disk - Donald Leger [14]
   Re: Auto Immune Diseases With The Abduction - Brian Cuthbertson [20]
   Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947 - William Sawers [38]
   Wilbert Brockhouse Smith At UFO UpDates Canadian - UFO UpDates -
   Toronto [6]
   Re: Auto Immune Diseases With The Abduction - Ed Gehrman [137]
   Re: NASA Flying Disk - David Rudiak [45]
   Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947 - David Rudiak [28]
   Re: Last Lines Of Ramey Message - James Bond Johnson [23]
   Re: NASA Flying Disk - Nick Balaskas [65]
   Re: Last Lines Of Ramey Message - Jim Mortellaro [67]
   Re: Auto Immune Diseases With The Abduction - Nick Balaskas [57]

  Apr 13:

   Re: Last Lines Of Ramey Message - Stan Friedman [33]
   TMP News: Weekly Briefing 4.12.00 - Paul Anderson [93]
   Investigation of 1952 'Talk Startles Crowd' Issue - Kenny Young [19]
   Re: Investigation of 1952 'Talk Startles Crowd' - Stan Friedman [23]
   Bill Chalker - Bill Chalker [21]
   UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 5, Number 15 - John Hayes [466]
   Re: Investigation of 1952 'Talk Startles Crowd' - Jim Mortellaro [26]
   Re: TMP News: Weekly Briefing 4.12.00 - Nick Balaskas [103]
   Re: NASA Flying Disk - Ron Cecchini [20]
   Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947 - Roger Prokic [61]

  Apr 14:

   Re: NASA Flying Disk - Roger Evans [24]
   Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947 - William Sawers [59]
   Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947 - Jim Mortellaro [29]
   Time-Travel Theory Gets Boost - UFO UpDates - Toronto [44]
   Re: TMP News: Weekly Briefing 4.12.00 - Jerome Clark [28]
   Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947 -
   neil@adm1.ph.man.ac.uk [33]
   Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947 - Kelly Peterborough
   [35]
   Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947 - Ed Gehrman [15]
   Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947 - Roger Evans [78]
   Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947 - Brad Sparks [45]
   Re: Lecture On Science & UFO Abductions - Nick Balaskas [34]
   Re: Last Lines Of Ramey Message - David Rudiak [77]

  Apr 15:

   Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947 - Ed Gehrman [65]
   Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947 - Steven W. Kaeser [28]
   Re: - Royce J. Myers III [24]
   Re: TMP News: Weekly Briefing 4.12.00 - GT McCoy [55]
   Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947 - Royce J. Myers III
   [24]
   Mullis and Hair - Joe Murgia [22]
   Re: TMP News: Weekly Briefing 4.12.00 - Joe Murgia [135]
   Notes On 9th Annual International UFO Congress - UFO UpDates - Toronto
   [927]
   Re: Mullis & Hair - Bill Chalker [37]
   Re: Mullis & Hair - Bill Chalker [9]
   Re: Mullis and Hair - Sue Kovios [22]
   Re: TMP News: Weekly Briefing 4.12.00 - Jerome Clark [46]
   McClendon: UFO Cover-Up Fading - Kelly Peterborough [76]
   Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947 - Larry Hatch [41]
   Re: TMP News: Weekly Briefing 4.12.00 - Serge Salvaille [58]
   Re: Arnold Pelicans - Voyager Newsletter - David Rudiak [56]
   Re: TMP News: Weekly Briefing 4.12.00 - Jerome Clark [47]

  Apr 16:

   Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947 - Roger Evans [81]
   Re: TMP News: Weekly Briefing 4.12.00 - Roger Evans [60]
   Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947 - Roger Prokic [31]
   Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947 - Roger Prokic [23]
   Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947 - David Rudiak [59]
   Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947 - Robert Gates [37]
   Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947 - Ed Gehrman [15]
   Re: TMP News: Weekly Briefing 4.12.00 - Serge Salvaille [68]
   Re: TMP News: Weekly Briefing 4.12.00 - Bob Young [26]
   New Cydonia Mound Imaged by MGS - Lan Fleming [44]
   Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947 - Roger Prokic [51]

  Apr 17:

   Re: TMP News: Weekly Briefing 4.12.00 - Serge Salvaille [65]
   Re: TMP News: Weekly Briefing 4.12.00 - Joe Murgia [32]
   Re: TMP News: Weekly Briefing 4.12.00 - Jerome Clark [63]
   Re: TMP News: Weekly Briefing 4.12.00 - Jerome Clark [84]
   Re: Notes On 9th Annual International UFO Congress - Gildas Bourdais
   [29]
   Re: TMP News: Weekly Briefing 4.12.00 - Paul Anderson [189]
   Re: TMP News: Weekly Briefing 4.12.00 - Lan Fleming [50]
   Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947 - Asgeir W. Skavhaug
   [26]
   Re: TMP News: Weekly Briefing 4.12.00 - Larry Hatch [83]
   Re: Dust Bunny Hunt - John Velez [17]
   New Book by Jim Marrs - 'Rule By Secrecy' - Sue Kovios ) [42]
   Re: TMP News: Weekly Briefing 4.12.00 - Steven Kaeser [40]
   Re: TMP News: Weekly Briefing 4.12.00 - Bob Young [31]
   Re: TMP News: Weekly Briefing 4.12.00 - Roger Evans [109]
   Re: TMP News: Weekly Briefing 4.12.00 - Jerome Clark [75]
   Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947 - Ed Gehrman [72]
   Re: Jeff Sainio? - Philip Mantle [6]
   Satellite Images Of Area 51 Now Available On Web - Blair Cummins [84]
   Chinese Take Great Leap - Blair Cummins [144]
   Filer's Files #15 -- 2000 - George A. Filer [473]
   Re: TMP News: Weekly Briefing 4.12.00 - Jerome Clark [97]
   Re: TMP News: Weekly Briefing 4.12.00 - Roger Evans [56]

  Apr 18:

   Re: TMP News: Weekly Briefing 4.12.00 - Serge Salvaille [44]
   Re: TMP News: Weekly Briefing 4.12.00 - Jerome Clark [65]
   Re: TMP News: Weekly Briefing 4.12.00 - Jim Mortellaro [73]
   Chemtrails - A Professional's View - GT McCoy [86]
   Re: TMP News: Weekly Briefing 4.12.00 - Joe Murgia [40]
   Re: Reed Hoax - Stop Kicking a Dead Alien - Robert Gates [61]
   Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947 - Robert Gates [21]
   Re: TMP News: Weekly Briefing 4.12.00 - Larry Hatch [28]
   Re: TMP News: Weekly Briefing 4.12.00 - Steven W. Kaeser [58]
   AA Film - Expert Opinions - Philip Mantle [15]
   Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947 - Roger Prokic [88]
   Re: Chemtrails - A Professional's View - Marty Murray [15]
   Re: TMP News: Weekly Briefing 4.12.00 - Brian Straight [19]
   Re: Chemtrails - A Professional's View - Bob Young [13]
   Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947 - Ralf Zeigermann [16]
   Re: TMP News: Weekly Briefing 4.12.00 - Serge Salvaille [22]
   No UFO Sightings, But Area 51 Now In Full View - Todd Lemire [82]
   Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947 - Dave Bowden [23]
   Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947 - Ed Gehrman [25]
   Re: Chemtrails - A Professional's View - Screen Name [33]
   Re: Chemtrails - A Professional's View - UFO UpDates - Toronto [9]
   Re: TMP News: Weekly Briefing 4.12.00 - Jerome Clark [18]
   New Radio Telescope For SETI Research Only - Nick Balaskas [51]

  Apr 19:

   P3N Hot News: Pentagon Denies ETs In Its Programs - Blair Cummins [34]
   TMP News: Weekly Briefing 4.18.00 - Paul Anderson [70]
   Area 51 Web Site Not Responding - Steven L. Wilson Sr [82]
   Argentine Cosmic Array To Explore Birth Of Universe - Steven L. Wilson
   Sr [48]
   Earth Lights/UFO Site - mysterylights.com - Sean Palmer [10]
   French Defence Ministry Releases Radar UFO Info - Perry Petrakis - SOS
   OVNI [48]

  Apr 18:

   Re: TMP News: Weekly Briefing 4.12.00 - Jerome Clark [33]
   Re: TMP News: Weekly Briefing 4.12.00 - Jerome Clark [59]
   Re: TMP News: Weekly Briefing 4.12.00 - Roger Evans [70]

  Apr 19:

   Re: UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 5, Number 16 - John Hayes [567]
   Re: CBS News: Why Is A Light Pulsing In Space? - Mac Tonnies [30]
   Friedman On Siegel Show Late Sunday Night, April 23 - Stan Friedman [8]
   UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 5, Number 16 - John Hayes [567]
   Re: Friedman On Siegel Show Late Sunday Night, - Ron Cecchini [23]

  Apr 20:

   Re: Friedman On Siegel Show Late Sunday Night, - Jim Mortellaro [39]
   New Search For Aliens - Steven L. Wilson Sr [36]
   BBC News: Secret 'UFO Base' Revealed - Steven L. Wilson Sr [56]
   NIDS Research Update April 2000 - Colm A Kelleher - NIDS [52]
   Barry Taylor's OZ UFO Video Release - Philip Mantle [69]
   'UFOs in China' - A New Book - Richard D. Nolane [26]

  Apr 21:

   Re: New Search For Aliens - Jim Mortellaro [93]
   Real X-Files - Bruce Maccabee [87]
   UFO Buffs Flock To Hacked Area 51 Web Site - Steven L. Wilson Sr [58]
   Pentagon: No ETs In Our Programs - Steven L. Wilson Sr [31]
   Budd Hopkins On 'UFO Desk' Program - Paul Williams [19]
   'Further Reading' Book List? - Philip Mantle [10]
   Re: Real X-Files - Georgina Bruni [10]

  Apr 22:

   Re: Arnold's Sighting And Ufology's First Law - James Easton [244]
   Re: Pentagon: No ETs In Our Programs - Marty Nosser [48]
   Re: 'Further Reading' Book List? - Kevin Randle [26]
   New Round Of Current Midwest Sightings - St. - Kenny Young [21]
   Expert "Sightings Likely Not UFOs" - Kenny Young [51]
   New Illinois UFO Data Page - Kenny Young [39]
   Area 51- Top-Secret Access - Joachim Koch [18]
   Area 51- Top-Secret Access - Joachim Koch [14]
   Re: 'Further Reading' Book List? - Stan Friedman [40]
   Jeff Rense Weekly E-News 4-22-00 - Rense E-News [253]

  Apr 23:

   Celebration? - Bruce Maccabee [9]
   Re: New Illinois UFO Data Page - Donnie W. Shevlin [31]
   Re: 'Further Reading' Book List? - Tim D. Brigham [32]
   Re: New Illinois UFO Data Page - Kenny Young [19]
   Re: 'Further Reading' Book List? - Steven W. Kaeser [111]
   Re: 'Further Reading' Book List? - Stan Friedman [38]
   Dogs, Not 'Goat Sucker' Kill Livestock - Todd Lemire [30]
   Tonight On 'Strange Days... Indeed': Bassett & - UFO UpDates - Toronto
   [11]

  Apr 24:

   Area 51 Detailed Images Show Major Expansion - Blair Cummins [103]
   Re: 'Further Reading' Book List? - Steven W. Kaeser [44]
   Re: Arnold's Sighting And Ufology's First Law - Bruce Maccabee [31]
   Re: Real X-Files - Robert Gates [13]
   International UFO And New-Age Symposium - Istanbul - Philip Mantle [54]
   Re: Arnold's Sighting And Ufology's First Law - Roy J Hale [24]
   Re: Dogs, Not 'Goat Sucker' Kill Livestock - Dr. Virgilio Sanchez-Ocejo
   [43]
   FOX UFO Special Thursday 04-27 - 21:00 Eastern - Serge Salvaille [6]

  Apr 25:

   CPR-Canada News: 'Fields of Dreams' - May 8, 2000 - Paul Anderson [74]
   Chilean UFO Leaves A Giant Triangular Mark - Dr. Virgilio Sanchez-Ocejo
   [34]
   Filer's Files #16 -- 2000 - George A. Filer [466]
   Re: Pentagon: No ETs In Our Programs - Ron Regehr [36]
   Pelly, Yukon Woman Tells Of UFO Sighting - Drew Williamson [75]
   UFO Reports In Canada Up 30% - 1999 Survey Results - UFO UpDates -
   Toronto [54]
   Filer's Files #12 -- 2000 - James Bond Johnson [93]
   Re: Dogs, Not 'Goat Sucker' Kill Livestock - Todd Lemire [63]

  Apr 26:

   McCain: UFO Sightings Meaningless? - Joe Murgia [20]
   Re: Dogs, Not 'Goat Sucker' Kill Livestock - Dr. Virgilio Sanchez-Ocejo
   [25]
   Cydonian Imperative: Mars Conspiracy Theories - Mac Tonnies [121]
   1999 Canadian UFO Survey Now Available On-Line - UFO UpDates - Toronto
   [39]
   Re: McCain: UFO Sightings Meaningless? - Serge Salvaille [40]
   UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 5, Number 17 - John Hayes [589]
   Re: Cydonian Imperative: Mars Conspiracy Theories - Bob Young [40]
   Re: Cydonian Imperative: Mars Conspiracy Theories - Roger Evans [32]
   Re: Dogs, Not 'Goat Sucker' Kill Livestock - Todd Lemire [42]

  Apr 27:

   Re: Roswell -- Filer's Files #12 -- 2000 - David Rudiak [278]
   UFO Buffs Dis Area 51 Pix - Blair Cummins [106]
   Rutkowski On CTV Network - RealMedia - UFO UpDates - Toronto [14]
   Re: Cydonian Imperative: Mars Conspiracy Theories - Mac Tonnies [51]
   A Bit Of Alien Fun... - Wendy Christensen [10]
   Re: Roswell -- Filer's Files #12 -- 2000 - James Bond Johnson [55]
   Re: UFO Buffs Dis Area 51 Pix - Steven W. Kaeser [24]
   Re: Roswell -- Filer's Files #12 -- 2000 - Bob Young [25]
   Re: Dogs, Not 'Goat Sucker' Kill Livestock - Dr. Virgilio Sanchez-Ocejo
   [28]
   Universe Is Flat And Expanding - John W. Auchettl [96]
   Does Mars Have A Blue Sky? - John W. Auchettl [30]
   Re: UFO Buffs Dis Area 51 Pix - Robert Gates [81]
   Discovery Channel's - 'Giants' & UFOs - Jenny Randles [25]

  Apr 28:

   Re: Universe Is Flat And Expanding - Terry Blanton [35]
   Re: Cydonian Imperative: Mars Conspiracy Theories - Lan Fleming [78]
   FOX's 'Best UFO Videos' - Bruce Maccabee [26]
   Re: Does Mars Have A Blue Sky? - Sharon Kardol [21]
   Re: Discovery Channel's - 'Giants' & UFOs - Sharon Kardol [13]
   Re: Discovery Channel's - 'Giants' & UFOs - Jenny Randles [40]
   Re: FOX's 'Best UFO Videos' - Steven W. Kaeser [38]
   Re: Does Mars Have A Blue Sky? - John W. Auchettl [75]
   New Book: The Field Guide To UFOs - UFO UpDates - Toronto [90]
   Re: Does Mars Have A Blue Sky? - Bob Young [48]
   Re: Cydonian Imperative: Mars Conspiracy Theories - Bob Young [47]
   'Flying Saucers' Landing in Egypt - Steven L. Wilson Sr [33]

  Apr 29:

   Re: Cydonian Imperative: Mars Conspiracy Theories - Roger Evans [37]
   Re: Cydonian Imperative: Mars Conspiracy Theories - Mac Tonnies [49]
   Re: Cydonian Imperative: Mars Conspiracy Theories - Joe Murgia [37]
   Re: Does Mars Have A Blue Sky? - Lan Fleming [82]
   Re: Cydonian Imperative: Mars Conspiracy Theories - Lan Fleming [10]
   P-47: Pelicans - Make Way for Flying Saucers! - Ed Stewart [19]
   Vehicle Shutdown? - Jim Mortellaro [23]
   Italian UFO Centre - Alfredo Lissoni [81]
   Art Bell Prevails In Defamation Hearing - UFO UpDates - Toronto [27]
   Skeptical Enquirer Article? - Philip Mantle [9]
   Re: Vehicle Shutdown? - Larry Hatch [52]
   Re: Vehicle Shutdown? - Larry Hatch [240]
   Re: Discovery Channel's - 'Giants' & UFOs - Roy J Hale [16]
   Re: Vehicle Shutdown? - Donald Ledger [23]
   Re: Vehicle Shutdown? - Roy J Hale [25]
   Re: Vehicle Shutdown? - Larry Hatch [39]
   Fox TV/New Book Release - Jan M. Pheneger [23]
   Re: Cydonian Imperative: Mars Conspiracy Theories - Bob Young [16]
   Re: Vehicle Shutdown? - Loy Pressley [24]
   Re: Vehicle Shutdown - Brian Cuthbertson [34]
   Re: Vehicle Shutdown? - Bob Young [26]
   Re: Does Mars Have A Blue Sky? - Bob Young [97]
   Earth Chauvinism - Carl Sagan - John W. Auchettl [40]
   Greek Sense - Brian Cuthbertson [11]
   Re: Vehicle Shutdown? - Jim Mortellaro [62]
   Diamond-Shaped UFO, Macomb County, Michigan - Todd Lemire [30]
   Re: Vehicle Shutdown? - David Rudiak [62]
   Re: Roswell -- Filer's Files #12 -- 2000 - David Rudiak [198]

  Apr 30:

   Re: P-47: Pelicans - Make Way for Flying Saucers! - James Easton [95]
   Re: Vehicle Shutdown? - Larry Hatch [40]
   Re: Vehicle Shutdown - Larry Hatch [65]
   Re: Vehicle Shutdown - Roy J Hale [19]
   UFO sighting - Belmont County, Ohio - Kenny Young [44]
   Re: Vehicle Shutdown? - Larry Hatch [86]
   Cydonian Imperative: Analysis Of The Fort - Mac Tonnies [116]
   Re: Vehicle Shutdown? - Mac Tonnies [33]
   P-47: Re: Pelicans - Make Way for Flying Saucers! - Ed Stewart [141]
   Jeff Rense Weekly E-News 4-29-00 - Rense E-News [248]
   Re: P-47: Pelicans - Make Way for Flying Saucers! - Larry Hatch [47]
   Re: Does Mars Have A Blue Sky? - Joe Murgia [9]
   Re: Does Mars Have A Blue Sky? - Lan Fleming [143]
   Re: Earth Chauvinism - Carl Sagan - Bob Young [10]
   Re: Does Mars Have A Blue Sky? - Bob Young [39]
   Re: Greek Sense - John W. Auchettl [42]
   Re: Vehicle Shutdown? - Serge Salvaille [114]
   Re: Vehicle Shutdown? - Jim Mortellaro [52]
   Re: Vehicle Shutdown? - Jenny Randles [100]
   Re: Does Mars Have A Blue Sky? - Larry Hatch [23]

   The number enclosed in brackets is the number of lines of new text in





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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 >
   Apr > Apr 1

                Re: PRG/SGB/X-PPAC [was: Re: Sarah McClendon]

From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 16:28:02 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 01 Apr 2000 02:22:25 -0500
Subject: Re: PRG/SGB/X-PPAC [was: Re: Sarah McClendon]


 >Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 11:44:52 -0500 (EST)
 >From: Stephen G. Bassett <SGBList2@aol.com>
 >Subject: PRG/SGB/X-PPAC [was: Re: Sarah McClendon]
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >>Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 06:51:28 -0500
 >>From: Steven W. Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Sarah McClendon?
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>


 >>Stephen Bassett established (or was at least centrally involved
 >>in the establishment of) the Paradigm Research Group (PRG)..
 >>Since this group's web page was developed while they were still
 >>heavily invested in the expected Y2K "disaster" their URL is

 >Clarification: PRG has nothing to do with Y2K... There is no Y2K
 >material on the PRG website... The confusion may stem from a
 >misinterpretation of the 'Paradigm Clock' which is about formal
 >disclosure of the ET presence and not about millennium issues.
 >Midnight on the PC represents such formal disclosure.

 >Much of the political material that would have been placed on the
 >PRG site is now going up on the X-PPAC website, which is a project
 >of PRG, www.x-ppac.org

I stand corrected, and won't make the same mistake again.  The
timing confused me I'm sure.  Thanks for the clarification.

 >I suppose one can be described as anything... However, if you
 >register as a lobbyist with the House and Senate, declare on
 >that registration the UFO/ET cover-up by elements of the federal
 >government and its agencies as a stated issue, call up members
 >to get meetings on that issue, badger the press to cover the
 >politics of UFOs/Disclosure - then it is a correct description.

I gave that description because it's one that's been touted for
quite a while.

 >>To my knowledge, he is not a UFO researcher, per se, and has (at
 >>least in the past) established connections with Richard Hoagland
 >>and Dr. Steven Greer..

 >That is correct.

 >>From my perspective, those connections have not helped him to
 >>gain the support and trust of many central UFO researchers..

 >I work with a lot of people in various ways. This association or
 >that association is not the issue..The issue is the field as a
 >whole refuses to work together, preferring endless and
 >nonproductive, testosterone laden pissing matches to tolerance
 >and cooperation (which by and large Steven Kaiser is <not>a
 >party to)... Aside from the formidable barriers put up by the
 >government, this failure to work together by the UFO/ET research
 >and activist community is the major reason the cover-up has
 >lasted as long as it has.

 >I would be happy to lobby on behalf of CUFOS, FUFOR and MUFON
 >and have said so many times.

I would probably define the central issues facing ufology a bit
differently, but I agree that ufology will gain little ground as
it tears itself apart.  Thanks for acknowledging that I'm not
one of the more boisterous voices in this community [it's
Kaeser, BTW].

As you are probably aware, the leadership in the three groups
you mentioned have developed their own "contacts" over the years
and continue to use those to get their message across.  Of
course, you can point out that these contacts haven't helped
much over the years, but everyone has their own methodology.

 >>As a "Lobbyist" he is also required to file statements with the
 >>Government which would show where he gets his financial support,
 >>and it might be interesting to see exactly who is paying for
 >>this lobbying..

 >I'll save anyone the time..Registrations are on file for 1) the
 >Enterprise Mission, 2) CSETI, 3) Stargate International
 >(closed), 4) Operation Right to Know, and 5) Skywatch
 >International.

 >All lobbying work to date has been done pro bono... No one has
 >been charged a penny... One associate provided a modest loan in
 >a time of need which has been repaid... There have been a few
 >thousand dollars in contributions from other supporters not
 >associated with the registered groups.

 >No monies contributed to X-PPAC are used for PRG activities. It
 >is the other way around. PRG has contributed $210 to X-PPAC.

 >Thus, beyond those funds mentioned above, the lobbying work has
 >been supported by my personal funds, tens of thousands of
 >dollars... This is not a complaint, I am happy to do it.

...and I meant no disrespect by bringing the issue up.  A
lobbyist is a person paid to promote a point of view. They are
usually contracted by special interest groups to lobby elected
officials in support of a particular position.  Most of us
involved in this genre are putting our own time and resources
into the effort, and as you note we are all glad to do it for
the cause.

 >If PRG and X-PPAC should benefit from major contributions in the
 >future from others who are tired of being lied to about the most
 >important event in history, the political work will proceed that
 >much faster... If not, the work will proceed nonetheless.

 >Steve Bassett

... as will the mystery, I suspect, regardless of the answers we
are able to uncover and confirm.

Steve Kaeser







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   Apr > Apr 1

                 An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947

From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman@psln.com>
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 14:26:35 -0800
Fwd Date: Sat, 01 Apr 2000 03:16:43 -0500
Subject: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947


Errol and list:

This is _not_ a joke!

Several months ago while I was having a heated discussion on
UpDates regarding the Alien Autopsy, I received an e-mail from a
person I didn't know. It was simple and to the point. He
advised me to keep defending the AA and that Santilli's
creatures, depicted in the Fox TV show, were not hoaxed nor
faked. He knew because he had seen the creatures himself. He
had been at Roswell when the crash occurred! Since that time
I've kept in contact with him and we've exchanged information
but he never told me the complete story until several days ago.
Here is his version of events, Roswell, July 3rd, 1947.


An MP's Story

Sorry for the delay in getting back to you, but I wanted to try
and remember all I could before I sent you this. Here's some
information for you to start with. The crash I saw was at what
they call the Roswell location. It was not the Brazel location
but on the Plains (of San Agustin.)

I was stationed at the base and was taken to the site with
several other men to secure the area. I was an MP. All of the
men on guard with me that morning were MPs at the base. I have
my regular papers stating that I was stationed at Roswell. I
left the service in 1948. There was some talk after the event,
but not very much. A lot of people had been told to say nothing.
I only ever spoke of it to one other person at the base who I
trusted and I knew trusted me. His name was Pappy Henderson, a
wonderful guy. I only told my son after the 50th anniversary was
all over the press. I thought he should know the truth for sure.
My wife passed away 5 years ago. I never told her.

I did not see all of the creatures, but was able to see one just
as it was being covered up and then put into a truck. The one I
saw had the six fingers, not three or four. As they put the
creature onto a stretcher one of the arms hit the side of the
MP. It was then that I took notice that it was funny looking.
As I looked at it I took notice that it had six fingers.
Something you will never forget! It had the big head, pale skin,
pale as in Chinese complexion and was short, looked to me to be
about 4'9, but it's just a guess. It was smaller than the
stretcher it was on, so that gave me a idea of size. That I can
still see as if it were yesterday. The creature from the Alien
Autopsy film is what it looked like. So you can imagine what a
shock it was to see the film on TV. I almost died.

The creature had on a silvery suit, no helmet. I was not allowed
to look inside the craft. We were told to stand facing the other
direction and make sure no one would get close to the area. The
craft had crashed and struck the rocks, smashing up the front of
it and also cracking the big rocks. The left side of the craft
had a huge hole in it going from the middle part along to the
bottom. To me, it looked like something had exploded from inside
the craft.I would say I was about 15 feet or so from the craft
which looked like a damn stingray, with weird tile like objects
under it that had a faint glow. It was dark before all the flood
lights had been put up, so I was able to see that glow. They
also put up flood lights facing out so no one could possibly see
the area if they had been looking from a distance. To the best
of my memory, it was July 3rd. The entire area was filled with
people I did not know. Truman was not there at the site, but
several people from DOD were in charge. Besides the regular MPs,
I saw several men in normal clothes, a few with suits on. When I
was debriefed it was by DOD, at least that's what they told me,
so I assume they had been in charge. I can tell you for sure
that Col. Blanchard was there. He was my CO.

The craft was loaded on a flatbed truck by crane and covered
with tarps and that was the last time I saw it. I can also tell
you for sure that the creatures were taken to the base and then
flown out to various locations, including Wright-Patterson.
After that, I was told to forgot what I had seen. I was brought
into Col. Blanchard's office, he was not present. Two men
dressed in suits told me that they were from DOD and not to talk
about this to anyone, family or otherwise for the best interest
of the country and my family.


The only thing after was just rumors. I feel that most had been
afraid to talk about it. I know that three trucks had come back
to the base with parts of the crash. As far as being sent to
Wright-Patterson, as I mentioned, I was on friendly terms with
Pappy Henderson. He flew the bodies out.

Not everyone knew about the crash. It was the damnest thing. As
far as I knew, very few people at the base knew and if they did,
they didn't talk about it. The only person I ever talked to
about it was Henderson. I was thirty-two at the time. I think
about it almost everyday. It is a sight that you can never
forget. You think, "My God! Something from another world came
here and the government don't want anyone to know" You feel like
if you had tried to tell anyone back then about it, they would
have thought you were crazy. It was only after hearing others
come out and talk about it that you feel better about saying
something.

I wonder if the truth will ever get out. The problem right now
is that we don't have any proof. Nothing to show for it. I think
the people in Washington made sure that word would never get
out. I hope and prey that the truth will come out soon. I'm
getting older everyday and I would like the people to know.
This has been upsetting over the past fifty plus years for me.
Hope this helps. I am a little scared about telling this to
anyone.







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   Apr > Apr 1

                   Art Bell Resigns - Official Statements

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>
Date: Sat, 01 Apr 2000 09:44:54 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 01 Apr 2000 09:44:54 -0500
Subject: Art Bell Resigns - Official Statements




From: UFO UpDates - Toronto

As Matt Drudge's 'Drudge Report', yesterday, observes, the date
of the following gives one pause for thought. Having listened to
the RealAudio from Bell's second hour of Coast to Coast, it does
_sound_ as if Bell is leaving the program as of April 26th. The
aircheck of the announcement is availabe at:

artbell.com

ebk

-----


Source: www.artbell.com


April 1st, 2000 - In the second hour of his talk radio program
tonight, Art Bell announces his retirement from radio
broadcasting.

"In order that you all understand the gravity of the
announcement I'm about to make, it's going to be necessary for
me to repeat some very painful events that have occured to my
family over the past several years.

On May 16th of the year 1997, my son, Art Bell IV, was
kidnapped, transported across state lines and raped by a
substitute teacher from his own high school. The assailant was
HIV positive. My son was a minor. He was only 16 years old at
the time.

The teacher involved was tried, convicted and is now serving a
life sentence. My son though, as you might imagine, was sent
into a psychological tailspin which continues to this very day.
We are trying very very hard to help him recover and lead a more
normal life. Some positive events have occurred toward that end
and your prayers are welcome. Please keep them coming.

While the police work and the trial of my son's assailant were
underway, difficult as it was for me to continue my daily radio
programs, I did so. Because my son was a minor at the time of
the crime, the records were sealed, his name was not made
public, something our society does to protect its own, its
future, its young people.

As our family was working through this trauma in private, an
event beyond all bounds of decency and humanity occurred. On
December 9th of 1997, just a few months after my son's ordeal,
my own began. Ted Gunderson, a retired FBI agent, along with
David Hinkson and the assistance of others, aired a broadcast
which - incredibly, absolutely incredibly - accused me of
committing the very same crime my son had suffered, child
molestation. The program further stated that I had paid to cover
up an indictment in Nye County, Nevada, my home. It further
urged listeners to call me "on air" and ask if I had been
indicted. Of course, these accusations were entirely false. But,
never the less the calls poured into my open line unscreened
program, asking if this was true. I had no choice but to block
out all these calls and keep my silence for fear of my son's
situation becoming public. This broadcast was made on WWCR,
world wide shortwave radio, in Nashville, Tennessee. This
station has been described by newpapers and civic minded
organizations as one of the country's leading broadcasters of
hate radio. The individuals, WWCR and its sister-station WNQM,
have allowed to broadcast over the airwaves, include a man who
wrote a book entitled "The Hitler We Loved And Why" and another
man who stated over the airwaves that Jews are the children of
Satan and that African-Americans are "mud people".

In addition to broadcasting these proponents of hate and
violence, this radio station has consciously decided not to
spend money on a delay switch, not to conduct a careful
background check of the people it places on the air and to allow
individuals to say almost anything they want in foreign
languages without having staff on duty who can even understand
what they are saying.

In my opinion, WWCR is one of the most irresponsible stations
permitted to broadcast over the airwaves of this country.

Now the fallout from that broadcast has been unbelievable.
Besides the unrelenting accusatory calls, others repeated this
false rumor as though it was fact, resulting in several related
lawsuits. Many of you may have heard my defense played out on
the airwaves and the Internet.

No matter how hard I have tried to set the record straight, my
torment and that of my family continues. Recently, a radio host
in Toronto, Canada opened his morning show with the words "I am
Art Bell and I molest little children". All of this sent me into
a psychological tailspin. I felt I had been dealt a blow I might
not recover from. Still I continued my nightly broadcasts as
best I could.

In October of 1998, my son came to a crisis point, a situation
so critical that nothing but my full-time attention would help.
So, on that fateful day, October 13th of 1998, I resigned on air
with no intention of returning. But thanks to the efforts of my
network, my best friend Alan Corbeth, Kraig Kitchin (CEO of
Premiere Networks) and Randy Micheals [CEO of Clear Channel], I
was able to return, but the pressure of having to defend myself
against baseless, vile claims that I was a child molester
eventually forced me to reduce my on air hours. Why the
individuals behind the December 9, 1997 broadcast by WWCR
decided to make such a patently false and harmful broadcast
remains for the courts to decide. A major moment in this
litigation is going to occur April 28th in Nashville, Tennessee.
If justice prevails, a trial, perhaps a protracted one, may
follow. It would be untrue for me to say this has not affected
my air work, it has. It would be unfair to all of you, not to
give you my full-time best. I can no longer do that. The reality
that after suffering the fate of my son's own molestation, I now
stand destined to be tainted for life as a child molester, has
proven simply too much to bear. God knows, I have tried.

For my Son, I pray that somehow his wounds will heal, his mind's
troubles fade into something of a normal life. For myself an
ordeal looms ahead to clear my good name of accusations I
committed a crime, committed against my own son. Nobody ever
said life would be fair, only to be lived as the hand is dealt
to you. For all the years of joy my work has provided, I want to
thank all of you and whatever creative force allowed it.

I have decided to retire from the broadcast business at the end
of this month, my last show to be April 26, 2000.

I will not do any media interviews on this subject. I have
already said more than any private person would have said, a
private world I now look forward to returning to. Any further
questions should be addressed to my attorney Gerard Fox at the
law firm of Fox, Siegler & Spillane in Los Angeles at (310)
229-9300."

                                                -- Art Bell


---


                               Premiere
                            Radio Networks


FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
Contact: Amir Forester
818-461-5404

ART BELL SIGNS OFF

LOS ANGELES, March 31, 2000 - Art Bell, the radio host famous
for his spontaneous and compelling conversations of all things
unexplained, officially resigns. His last broadcast will be on
Wednesday evening, April 26, running into Thursday morning,
April 27.

Art will deliver a statement on his show tonight (2a.m. EST,
11p.m. PST) addressing his retirement from not only radio
broadcasting, but also all other forums of media including book
publishing, television, etc. He is looking forward to living an
anonymous lifestyle.

"We have and will continue to support Art," said Kraig T.
Kitchin, president/COO of Premiere Radio Networks. "I hoped he
would return full time, but understand his inability to do so
and agree this is the best course of action. A new host of Coast
to Coast AM will be introduced to affiliates and listeners
imminently through Art's own introduction. Coast to Coast AM
will continue to pursue the subject matter in the same
entertaining and intriguing ways. In addition, affiliates and
advertisers are being informed of the changes as they happen.
The network is committed to delivering ratings results
consistent to Art's."

Premiere Radio Networks, Inc., a subsidiary of Clear Channel,
currently syndicates more than 60 radio programs and serves more
than 7,800 radio station affiliates. Premiere is one of the top
three radio networks in the country, and the leading provider of
morning show material nationwide. The number one syndicator of
programming, Premiere features the following personalities: Rush
Limbaugh, Dr. Laura Schlessinger, Jim Rome, Dr. Dean Edell,
Michael Reagan, Phil Hendrie, Naomi Judd, Blair Garner, Lionel
and Rick Dees. Premiere is based in Sherman Oaks, Calif., and
has eight offices nationwide.

### <









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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 >
   Apr > Apr 1

                       01-04-00 - NASA Peeps Abducted?

From: Brian Cuthbertson <brianc@fc.net>
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 21:44:04 -0600 (CST)
Fwd Date: Sat, 01 Apr 2000 09:57:04 -0500
Subject: 01-04-00 - NASA Peeps Abducted?


Folks,

An interesting NASA story on the disappearance of some
interesting cargo sent aloft with a meteor balloon flight
in April 1999.  Alien intervention is mentioned as a
possibility.  Note that this was NASA news for April 1.

Hmmm....

  http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2000/ast01apr_1m.htm

-Brian C.








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   Apr > Apr 1

                      Re: 10-25-89 'Sudbury Star' Story

From: Michel M. Deschamps <ufoman@ican.net>
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 22:59:24 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 01 Apr 2000 10:00:03 -0500
Subject: Re: 10-25-89 'Sudbury Star' Story


 >Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 21:48:32 -0500
 >From: Todd Lemire <tlemire@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: 10-25-89 'Sudbury Star' Story
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>


 >>Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 10:40:36 -0500
 >>From: Michel M. Deschamps <ufoman@ican.net>
 >>Subject: 10-25-89 'Sudbury Star' Story
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>I came across this article (below) during my newspaper
 >>research.

 >>Can anyone tell me if this article refers to a UFO sighting
 >>being dismissed by NORAD, or was there really a re-entry of a
 >>Soviet satellite around or on October 24, 1989, which could have
 >>been seen from Northern Ontario?


 >>The Sudbury Star [Northern Ontario, Canada]
 >
 >>Strange Lights Probably A Satellite, NORAD Says
 >
 >>STAFF-- Those strange but beautiful lights which graced Northern
 >>Ontario skies early Tuesday were a Soviet satellite re-entering
 >>the earths atmosphere a NORAD spokesman says.

 ><snip>


 >Hello Michel,

 >Here's the satellite info that you're inquiring about:

 >1989-078C    20257 CIS      87.3   62.8    149     128   0.0000
 >SL-6 PLAT                 Launched (1989/09/27) Decayed
 >[1989/10/24]

 >SL-6 PLAT    Decayed: 1989/10/24
 >1 20257U 89078  C 89297.36664060  .91198784 +39978-4 +83717-3 0
 >00722
 >2 20257 062.8044 074.2596 0016157 127.4721 233.0472
 >16.50387128004230

 >This is the last TLE for this particular satellite. I put this
 >TLE into my Winorbit program and at 8:30am EDT it would be
 >located at 62.04N & 57.54W which would put it in the Davis
 >Strait East of the Baffin Island.


Thanks, Todd.

I guess I'll pull this article out of my UFO clipping collection
so that I don't end up gluing it in my scrapbook, and then later
remove it.

You saved me a bit of work.

Michel







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   Apr > Apr 1

                 Archived Newsletters Available at Cydonian

From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 22:41:29 -0800 (PST)
Fwd Date: Sat, 01 Apr 2000 10:00:52 -0500
Subject: Archived Newsletters Available at Cydonian


Essays devoted to the epistemilogical implications of the
discovery of extinct life on Mars are now available for easy
perusal at:

http://www.geocities.com/macbot/archive.html

Thanks to those of you who supplied the files that made this
page possible.




=====
Mac Tonnies
239 E. Sea
Independence, MO 65050
816-833-5910
macbot@yahoo.com
http://www.geocities.com/macbot/mtvi.html







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   Apr > Apr 1

                         Taliferro County, Georgia?

From: Todd Lemire <tlemire@home.com>
Date: Sat, 01 Apr 2000 05:02:34 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 01 Apr 2000 10:05:26 -0500
Subject: Taliferro County, Georgia?


This was found in the alt.ufo.reports newsgroup and thought I'd
pass it along.

---

Chip The Ripper wrote:

Hello.

I am new to the group... so first off, let me say hello to
everyone.  =)

Second of all.  Did anybody see or hear of any reported UFOs
near Taliaferro County, Georgia this evening?

My girlfriend is driving back to Auburn this evening and she
called me within the last hour to tell me that she saw an object
in the sky that did not resemble an airplane.

Well, about 10 or 15 miles down the road she saw three objects,
which she said were triangular in shape with lights on each
point and a pulsating quality to the entire object.

She said that the three objects performed an acrobatic sequence
in the air.

She saw some other cars pulled over, so she did as well.

She tried using her cell phone, as did other people pulled over
and none of them worked until the objects disappeared and she
got back moving on the interstate.

She's pretty freaked out about it as she has never seen such
before.

I'd love to hear any comments.

Charles Torgerson ctorger927@msn.com

---

Todd Lemire
--
An expert may be defined as someone who can make you feel stupid
for offering your opinion.  Fortunately, as physicist Philip
Morrison once said, ufology "is a field in which there aren't any
experts.






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   Apr > Apr 1

               Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947

From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
Date: Sat, 01 Apr 2000 08:08:51 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 01 Apr 2000 10:09:36 -0500
Subject: Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947


 >Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 14:26:35 -0800
 >From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman@psln.com>
 >Subject: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >Errol and list:

 >This is _not_ a joke!

 >Several months ago while I was having a heated discussion on
 >UpDates regarding the Alien Autopsy, I received an e-mail from a
 >person I didn't know. It was simple and to the point. He
 >advised me to keep defending the AA and that Santilli's
 >creatures, depicted in the Fox TV show, were not hoaxed nor
 >faked. He knew because he had seen the creatures himself. He
 >had been at Roswell when the crash occurred! Since that time
 >I've kept in contact with him and we've exchanged information
 >but he never told me the complete story until several days ago.
 >Here is his version of events, Roswell, July 3rd, 1947.

 >An MP's Story

 >Sorry for the delay in getting back to you, but I wanted to try
 >and remember all I could before I sent you this. Here's some
 >information for you to start with. The crash I saw was at what
 >they call the Roswell location. It was not the Brazel location
 >but on the Plains (of San Agustin.)

<snip>

 >I wonder if the truth will ever get out. The problem right now
 >is that we don't have any proof. Nothing to show for it. I think
 >the people in Washington made sure that word would never get
 >out. I hope and prey that the truth will come out soon. I'm
 >getting older everyday and I would like the people to know.
 >This has been upsetting over the past fifty plus years for me.
 >Hope this helps. I am a little scared about telling this to
 >anyone.

I have difficulties with many aspects of this story.

First there was no DOD in July, 1947.

Second there are a number of bases much closer to the Plains
than Roswell such as Alamogordo Army Air Field, White Sands
Missile Range, Kirtland Field. Six fingers doesn't match other
descriptions, etc.

There isn't really anything here that couldn't be echoed from
books and TV.

I have a copy of the Base Yearbook and would be happy to check
to see whether this guy was in it.

Obviously I am not asking that the name be published on this or
any other list.

My Fax is 506-450-3832
Phone is 506-457-0232
E-mail: fsphys@brunnet.net

Gray basket comes first.

I will be back late Tuesday after speaking at Clinton Community
College, Plattsburgh, NY at noon Monday, April 3, and at SUNY
Plattsburgh at 7PM, April 3.

Stan Friedman








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               Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947

From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net>
Date: Sat, 01 Apr 2000 06:03:37 -0800
Fwd Date: Sat, 01 Apr 2000 10:23:12 -0500
Subject: Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947


 >Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 14:26:35 -0800
 >From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman@psln.com>
 >Subject: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >Errol and list:

 >This is _not_ a joke!

 >Several months ago while I was having a heated discussion on
 >UpDates regarding the Alien Autopsy, I received an e-mail from a
 >person I didn't know. It was simple and to the point. He
 >advised me to keep defending the AA and that Santilli's
 >creatures, depicted in the Fox TV show, were not hoaxed nor
 >faked. He knew because he had seen the creatures himself. He
 >had been at Roswell when the crash occurred! Since that time
 >I've kept in contact with him and we've exchanged information
 >but he never told me the complete story until several days ago.
 >Here is his version of events, Roswell, July 3rd, 1947.

 >An MP's Story

 >Sorry for the delay in getting back to you, but I wanted to try
 >and remember all I could before I sent you this. Here's some
 >information for you to start with. The crash I saw was at what
 >they call the Roswell location. It was not the Brazel location
 >but on the Plains (of San Agustin.)

<snip>

 >I wonder if the truth will ever get out. The problem right now
 >is that we don't have any proof. Nothing to show for it. I think
 >the people in Washington made sure that word would never get
 >out. I hope and prey that the truth will come out soon. I'm
 >getting older everyday and I would like the people to know.
 >This has been upsetting over the past fifty plus years for me.
 >Hope this helps. I am a little scared about telling this to
 >anyone.

To anyone interested:

I have this really great bridge for sale, recently upgraded.
Lots of traffic and toll.

- Larry Hatch

PS: You can legally smoke tobacco this bridge, but you have to
stay in the car.









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   Apr > Apr 1

                       07-23-52 - Talk Startles Crowd

From: Kenny Young <ufo@fuse.net>
Date: Sat, 01 Apr 2000 00:11:35 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 01 Apr 2000 10:51:45 -0500
Subject: 07-23-52 - Talk Startles Crowd


I am hopeful that some researchers might be familiar with the
following account from a 1952 newspaper article and could kindly
resolve a few questions which arise.

Would anyone know of this Joseph Rohrer, if he was who he said
he was?  If so...why would he be presenting this information in a
meeting of this nature?  Whatever came of him, or has anything
been said otherwise to lend credence to the following remarks?

I'll be looking forward to any insight or comments on this
one...

Thanks,
Kenny Young

========================

Headline: "Flying Saucer Talk Startles Chamber Membership Meeting"
Source: Pueblo [Colorado] Chieftain, Page Three
Date: July 23, 1952

A three-foot tall pilot of a flying saucer from another planet
has been kept alive in an incubator room in the state of
California for two years, and progress is being made in efforts
to communicate with him, startled Chamber of Commerce members
were advised here Tuesday.

Information on the still mysterious individual who reportedly
was rescued from a "saucer crash" in Montana was divulged at the
Vail hotel luncheon by Joseph Rohrer, president of the Pikes
Peak Broadcasting Co.

The reputed lone survivor among crews of three saucers that have
fallen in that state "has been shown pictures and has shown
great interest in them and primary steps used in teaching a
child to read and write are being employed," the speaker stated.

In his revealing talk Rohrer said dissection of dead pilots from
the craft disclose that the only basic difference in anatomy is
that their bone structure is heavier and their stomachs are
smaller.

The speaker, alleging that he was inside one of the seven flying
saucers at a California federal base in 1942, said that the
mechanisms are giant flywheels covered with metal skins.

He stated that the saucers are covered by electrostatic turbines
and have cabins in the center. The cabins are pressurized and
have an atmosphere containing 30 percent oxygen and 70 percent
nitrogen.

Thru use of the flywheel, a magnetic field is created which
permits the saucers to travel at tremendous speeds, said Rohrer,
who became interested in flying saucers as the result of a
thesis he wrote on electronic tubes used to measure electronic
tubes during his college training in electrical engineering.

"If a magnetic field is opened around the earth it would be
possible to travel at about the speed of light," he stated.
"They have never tried to fly the saucers that have been
captured. They are put together in five sections and come apart
easily after the center section is removed.

"I have been in one which is 100 feet in diameter and 18 feet
thick," Rohrer stated. "The sleeping quarters for crew members
are tubes with caps on the ends and the cabin was pressurized
and air conditioned."

The color of flying saucers changes because of the magnetic
field set up by the magnetic motors, he said. Reports of a
flying saucer seen successively over Colorado Springs, Pueblo
and Trinidad have made it possible to estimate its speed at more
than 1,000 miles per hour. Six weeks ago a space ship was traced
for 600 miles as it flew across Australia and in Seattle, Wash.,
all electrical appliances were burned out or fuses were blown in
one section of town when a flying saucer "turned on power in the
vicinity of a power line," Rohrer maintained.

Little information has been released by the government on flying
saucers because of the possible panic that might result and
because some religious leaders object to the thought of other
universes, he stated. Venus, with its cloud covering, is one of
the most likely planets in the solar system to support life, but
there are 22 other known solar systems which have satellites
similar to the earth's. By traveling at the speed of light and
waiting until Venus and the earth were closest in their orbits
around the sun, it would take about two years to fly to Venus
and return, he pointed out.

Flying saucers first became evident when radar was being
developed in 1942 and "unknown" objects appeared on radar
screens.

The air force set up a commission to study saucer reports in
1947 and discovered that 20 per cent of the reports could not be
explained satisfactorily. The air defense command at Colorado
Springs has a unit designed to study the saucers and a pin-
marked map showing saucer reports indicate they are seen
frequently around military installations and atomic research
centers, he added.

End of article
--
UFO Research
http://home.fuse.net/ufo/








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   Apr > Apr 1

                   NASA's Goldin Address To JPL Employees

From: Sue Kovios <bradford@globalserve.net>
Date: Sat, 01 Apr 2000 07:16:38 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 01 Apr 2000 11:13:32 -0500
Subject: NASA's Goldin Address To JPL Employees


Transcript available in .pdf form at:

ftp://ftp.hq.nasa.gov/pub/pao/Goldin/2000/jpl_remarks.pdf

---

Goldin's speech was replayed Friday, March 31 but for those who
again missed it try:

http://www.unitedspacealliance.com/live/NASATV.htm

The site will use your RealPlayer and stream video at the
following times:

April 2, Sunday

12:00 - 12:30 pm - Administrator Goldin Addresses JPL Employees
                    (recorded on 3/29/00)

12:30 -  1:00 pm - Administrator Goldin Addresses JPL Employees
                    (recorded on 3/29/00)

  1:00 -  3:00 pm - Computer Security Hearing before the House
                    Subcommittee on Government Management,
                    Information and Technology; Government Reform
                    Committee (recorded on 3/29/00)

  3:00 -  3:30 pm - Administrator Goldin Addresses JPL Employees
                    (recorded on 3/29/00)

  3:30 -  4:00 pm - Administrator Goldin Addresses JPL Employees
                    (recorded on 3/29/00)

  4:00 -  6:00 pm - Computer Security Hearing before the House
                    Subcommittee on Government Management,
                    Information and Technology; Government Reform
                    Committee (recorded on 3/29/00)

  6:00 -  6:30 pm - Administrator Goldin Addresses JPL Employees
                    (recorded on 3/29/00)

  6:30 -  7:00 pm - Administrator Goldin Addresses JPL Employees
                    (recorded on 3/29/00)

  7:00 -  9:00 pm - Computer Security Hearing before the House
                    Subcommittee on Government Management,
                    Information and Technology; Government Reform
                    Committee (recorded on 3/29/00)

  9:00 -  9:30 pm - Administrator Goldin Addresses JPL Employees
                    (recorded on 3/29/00)

  9:30 - 10:00 pm - Administrator Goldin Addresses JPL Employees
                    (recorded on 3/29/00)

10:00 - Midnight - Computer Security Hearing before the House
                    Subcommittee on Government Management,
                    Information and Technology; Government Reform
                    Committee (recorded on 3/29/00) - HQ








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   Apr > Apr 1

                    Reed Hoax - Stop Kicking a Dead Alien

From: Royce J. Myers III <ufowatchdog@earthlink.net>
Date: Sat, 01 Apr 2000 18:11:25 -0800
Fwd Date: Sat, 01 Apr 2000 11:28:19 -0500
Subject: Reed Hoax - Stop Kicking a Dead Alien


Below you'll find an e-mail sent to CAUS from none other than
one half of the team of Jonathan Reed and Robert Raith.

A bit of advice to Reed and Raith: Quit while you're not ahead.

When will they ever get the message that no one is going to pay
them to lie. Reed and Raith have been given many, many
opportunities to prove their story.

Do ufology a favor, go away...


SOURCE: CAUS Updates <www.caus.org>
================<>================
E-MAIL HIGHLIGHTS:

In reference to your inquiry about Jonathan Reed and his
encounter: We have gathered our own team of people who are
willing to stand together and tell the truth regarding all of
the facts relating to the case.

Considering the recent events and controversy relating to Dr.
Reed speaking at the International UFO Congress/Conference in
Laughlin NV; it really wouldn't surprise me if Jonathan decided
to never again speak publicly in this country.

Jonathan Reed was invited to speak and tell his story. He did
this - with the assurance from members and organizers of the
conference that he wouldn't be attacked for his right to tell
his story, and to bring new information into the light for
everyone to see. Unfortunately, this was not how things were at
all handled. After speaking to a supportive audience of well
over 700 people, Jonathan was then subjected to personal
attacks, not from the audience who truly appreciated his honesty
in coming forward, but from members of the conference heads,
itself.

Demands were made and postured relating to subjecting Dr. Reed
to a physical examination against his will, to substantiate
claims by others that he wasn't shot in the shoulder. People
said that if he in fact didn't expose himself to this
examination, the congress wouldn't back his claims and wouldn't
consider his encounter valid.

This sounds to me like just short of: Rape and/or Extortion!

--Robert Raith

-----

Regards,

Royce J. Myers III
eXpos: The Watchdog of UFOlogy - "Don't Trip On Your Open Mind."
http://home.sprintmail.com/~rjm3 (eXpos: The Watchdog of UFOlogy)
http://home.earthlink.net/~ufowatchdog (UFO Hall o' Shame)








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   Apr > Apr 1

                 Re: Art Bell Resigns - Official Statements

From: John Pierson <johnpierson@mindspring.com>
Date: Sat, 01 Apr 2000 10:29:14 -0600
Fwd Date: Sat, 01 Apr 2000 16:54:22 -0500
Subject: Re: Art Bell Resigns - Official Statements


From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>
To: <02 - UFO UpDates Subscribers :;>
Sent: Saturday, April 01, 2000 8:44 AM
Subject: UFO UpDate: Art Bell Resigns - Official Statements

 > From: UFO UpDates - Toronto

 > As Matt Drudge's 'Drudge Report', yesterday, observes, the date
 > of the following gives one pause for thought. Having listened to
 > the RealAudio from Bell's second hour of Coast to Coast, it does
 > _sound_ as if Bell is leaving the program as of April 26th. The
 > aircheck of the announcement is available at:

 > artbell.com

 > ebk

 > -----


 > Source: www.artbell.com

<snip>

Since I doubt Mr. Bell reads his e-mail from the peasants, I
would like to post my opinion regarding this latest cry for
help.

Bull.

Mr Bell has 460 affiliates, millions of people listen to him
live each night, millions more tape the program, and still more
millions all over the world have access to the internet where he
can be heard again.

To claim that one program on a hate radio station which aired in
December 1997, and recently one comment from a host in Canada
should push him into quitting radio is ridiculous.

If Bell wanted to he could get tv interviews with any network in
any country at any time. And _that_ would set the record
straight. No one can make light of what has happened to this man
and his family, but quitting is running away.

It makes more sense to me to fight, to use the vast media
network to clear his name.

By leaving, again, like this, he will never have peace of mind.
The accusuations and suspicion by small minded people will
follow him forever.







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   Apr > Apr 1

                     Re: 01-04-00 - NASA Peeps Abducted?

From: Lan Fleming <apollo18@swbell.net>
Date: Sat, 01 Apr 2000 13:43:40 -0600
Fwd Date: Sat, 01 Apr 2000 17:01:04 -0500
Subject: Re: 01-04-00 - NASA Peeps Abducted?


 >Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 21:44:04 -0600 (CST)
 >From: Brian Cuthbertson <brianc@fc.net>
 >Subject: 01-04-00 - NASA Peeps Abducted?
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca


 >An interesting NASA story on the disappearance of some
 >interesting cargo sent aloft with a meteor balloon flight
 >in April 1999.  Alien intervention is mentioned as a
 >possibility.  Note that this was NASA news for April 1.
 >>Hmmm....

 >  http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2000/ast01apr_1m.htm


As far as the subject of ETI is concerned, it seems that every
day is April Fool's day to some people at NASA.

JPL's phony Catbox enhancement of the Face image was released on
April 6, 1998. That's five days after April Fool's Day.

Apparently, the orbital mechanics involved in acquiring the
image prevented them from pulling their little joke on schedule.








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   Apr > Apr 1

           Tonight On 'Strange Days... Indeed': Mike Woods & Grant

From: "Strange Days... Indeed" <sdi@cfrb.com>
Date: Sat, 01 Apr 2000 17:41:18 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 01 Apr 2000 17:41:18 -0500
Subject: Tonight On 'Strange Days... Indeed': Mike Woods & Grant

   --------------------
  /// Michael J. Woods
---------------------

Mike has a pithy, funny approach to UFOs. He toils in one of
the busiest TV news rooms in Canada. A former military
boxing champion with a lightning jab and a hefty roundhouse,
he applies both to his regular monthly columns on the program.
He's not to be missed.


   ---------------------------
  /// Grant Cameron - Part II
----------------------------

Grant is one of Canada's leading authorities on Wilbert B.
Smith.

We ran out of time two weeks ago, while discussing Grant's trip
to and impressions of the Laughlin, Nevada UFO Congress. We
barely scratched the surface of his 'major' - hence his quick
return to the program.


Grant became involved in the field in 1976. That year and in
1977, he investigated the appearances of a series of small
objects that appeared on the ground in the Carman, Manitoba
area. This included over 100 field trips... recording of the
objects... and interviewing witnesses. While interviewing those
witnesses he had a number of sightings himself.

One of the witnesses to the Carman events, a radar technician
with the Canadian Department Of Transport, had worked in the
1950s with the late Wilbert B. Smith at the Canadian Department
of Communications. Grant was encouraged to study Smith's work by
the radar technician who directed him to a number of people who
worked with and for Smith.

Throughout the 1980s our guest reviewed documents related to
Smith and travelled to interview both the inner and outer circle
of people who had contact with Wilbert Smith during his UFO
investigations for the Canadian Government.

His Smith research led to a living witness to the inner workings
of the US Government's UFO situation - Dr. Eric Walker - a
former President of Penn State University.

In the late 80S Grant co-authored a book titled 'UFOs, MJ-12,
And The Government' with T. Scott Crain. It details the work of
Wilbert Smith, and Dr. Walker's disclosures about MJ-12 and what
the Government actually knew.

Grant had only casual interest in the field during the 90s.

At present he's researching the "Evil Alien versus Good Alien"
debate... and comparing the Wilbert Smith revelations of the
1950s to what present researchers and evidence are indicating.

For those of you having difficulties in connecting to CFRB's
server via the web, please note the connection info below*

Join Mike, Grant and co-host Jonn Kares and I, along with
callers at 21:00 Eastern, as we discuss these Strange Days...
Indeed on:

News Talk Radio Toronto - CFRB 1010 AM - 50,000 watts

CFRX in the 40 Metre band at 6070khz Shortwave

and the Eureka Digital Broadcast System in Toronto.

You can also listen via Media Player by opening the
player and pasting the following URL into 'File'/'Open':

http://cfrb.com/cfrb.asx

and connect ahead of time - the site gets really busy.

To call the program dial:

On-Air     [1] 416-872-1010
            1-800-561-CFRB [In Ontario]
            *TALK [local mobiles]

Next Sunday night: 'Shadow Craft'

The following programs are available for downloading to your
RealPlayer from the expanding SDI Archive at:

http://members.xoom.com/strangedaysi/sdix.htm


022 - 03-28-99 - Dr. David Jacobs - Abductions & 'The Threat'

027 - 05-02-99 - Larry Hatch - The *U* UFO Data Base

028 - 05-09-99 - Alfred Lehmberg - The Alien View

030 - 05-23-99 - Greg Sandow - Researcher Writer

031 - 05-39-99 - Bill Oliver - UFO*BC

032 - 06-06-99 - Larry Fenwick - The Canadian UFO Research
                  Network

033 - 06-13-99 - Dennis Stacy - Publisher 'The Anomalist'

049 - 10-03-99 - John Velez - Abduction Information Centre

066 - 01-31-00 - Lindy Tucker - Program  I - Beeping UFOs

068 - 02-13-00 - Lindy Tucker - Program II - Beeping UFOs

072 - 03-12-00 - Richard C. Hoagland - NASA & 'Mission To Mars'

073 - 03-19-00 - Grant Cameron - Program  I - Laughlin, Nevada
                  UFO Congress Report & Wilbert B. Smith

074 - 03-26-00 - Philip Mantle Former BUFORA Director of
                  Research Author, Santilli Associate


Errol Bruce-Knapp





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   Apr > Apr 2

                          Northumberland, UK 'UFO'

From: Todd Lemire <tlemire@home.com>
Date: Sat, 01 Apr 2000 18:35:52 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 02 Apr 2000 11:11:07 -0400
Subject: Northumberland, UK 'UFO'


This was taken from the uk.rec.ufo news.group, thought I'd pass
it along.

---

From: croft_house@hotmail.com

A couple of weeks ago I was talking in the pub with some of the
locals Alnmouth, when a guy from one of the village restaurants
said he'd seen weird lights whilst walking down the coast from
Boulmer to Alnmouth. A couple of others said they'd seen the
same thing.

There was some discussion about whether it could have been from
RAF Boulmer, [Northumberland --ebk] but this was discounted as
they're a none-flying base - something to do with the UK early
warning defences.

  [See: http://www.cmrt.swinternet.co.uk/heli3.htm

   also:

    http://www.raf.mod.uk/stations/ukadge.html

    "RAF Boulmer

    Boulmer was originally an Operational Training Unit when it
    opened in 1943. Today it is home to the School of Fighter
    Control and is one of the Control and Reporting Centres in the
    UK ASACS. The station is also home to Headquarters and 'A'
    Flight of 202 Squadron with 2 Sea King HAR3s providing Search
    and Rescue and Mountain Rescue cover to the Borders." --ebk]

About 5 people said that they've seen the same thing - a strange
glow over the golf course and red and blue lights zipping about,
far too fast to be a helicopter or aircraft - they changed
direction too quickly.

Anyway, I took all of this with a pinch of salt as I doubt that
any aliens would bother to travel light years just to piss about
over a tiny village golf course - unless they're trying to learn
golf! - until last night when I was fishing off Foxton beach.

It was about 2:00 am and fairly clear when I heard a low buzzing
noise behind me and I turned and looked over the beach to Foxton
golf club and to the left, towards Alnmouth, I could see a kind
of milky glow. It was fairly localised and looked like fog would
look if it was lit form inside.

I watched for a few minutes and then from the middle of the glow
came three very bright balls of light. There was one blue and
two red. They shot out to sea at a hell of a speed and then
seemed to hang in the air for a few seconds before slowly
swinging around towards Boulmer and they seemed to drift slowly
off the sea and then they shot straight towards me at an amazing
speed.

Just as they reached the edge of the bay they winked out (but I
could still hear the buzzing) and then they reappeared over the
golf course and slowly sank down behind the a place called
Bracken Hill.

Very strange experience. I've no idea at all what these thing
were (Ball lightening?) but I've never seen anything like it
before in my life.

Joe
-----


Todd Lemire
--
An expert may be defined as someone who can make you feel stupid
for offering your opinion.  Fortunately, as physicist Philip
Morrison once said, ufology "is a field in which there aren't any
experts.







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   Apr > Apr 2

                 Re: Art Bell Resigns - Official Statements

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 01 Apr 2000 21:09:52 -0500 (EST)
Fwd Date: Sun, 02 Apr 2000 11:20:32 -0400
Subject: Re: Art Bell Resigns - Official Statements


 >Date: Sat, 01 Apr 2000 10:29:14 -0600
 >From: John Pierson <johnpierson@mindspring.com>
 >Subject: Re: Art Bell Resigns - Official Statements
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>
 >To: <02 - UFO UpDates Subscribers :;>
 >Sent: Saturday, April 01, 2000 8:44 AM
 >Subject: UFO UpDate: Art Bell Resigns - Official Statements

 >>As Matt Drudge's 'Drudge Report', yesterday, observes, the date
 >>of the following gives one pause for thought. Having listened to
 >>the RealAudio from Bell's second hour of Coast to Coast, it does
 >>_sound_ as if Bell is leaving the program as of April 26th. The
 >>aircheck of the announcement is available at:

 >>artbell.com

 >>ebk

 >>Source: www.artbell.com

 ><snip>

 >Since I doubt Mr. Bell reads his e-mail from the peasants, I
 >would like to post my opinion regarding this latest cry for
 >help.

 >Bull.

 >Mr Bell has 460 affiliates, millions of people listen to him
 >live each night, millions more tape the program, and still more
 >millions all over the world have access to the internet where he
 >can be heard again.

 >To claim that one program on a hate radio station which aired in
 >December 1997, and recently one comment from a host in Canada
 >should push him into quitting radio is ridiculous.

 >If Bell wanted to he could get tv interviews with any network in
 >any country at any time. And _that_ would set the record
 >straight. No one can make light of what has happened to this man
 >and his family, but quitting is running away.

 >It makes more sense to me to fight, to use the vast media
 >network to clear his name.

 >By leaving, again, like this, he will never have peace of mind.
 >The accusuations and suspicion by small minded people will
 >follow him forever.

Dear Art Bell, Listers and EBK:

On the off chance that you (Art) are telling it as it is, I have
the following Open Letter to you, from me, the great Gesundt:

Dear Art;

I believe you are a fellow Amateur Radio Operator. I've garnered
pleasure from that hobby for approaching fifty years.

First, I did not know about your difficulties. This may be to
your credit, that is, keeping them as quiet as you have. It
takes guts not to scream loud and long when you have as much
power as you do. I do not, of course, refer to kilowatts.

Second, I am not now, have never been, and am not likely to be a
fan of Art Bell. It's just that the chemistry is not there.
Never did like the show from the very first time I listened to
it. After trying several more times, I just could not take the
Art Bell Show culture. But hey, that's allowed. That's why there
is a spectrum full of shows from which to choose.

Considering that you do not usually respond to the mountain of
email you do, I am making this an open letter, hoping that
someone prints it and someone else hands you a copy.

Here's my message to you personally. I am sorry for your
troubles and sorrier still for a society of sociopaths, all of
whom appear to take great pleasure in inflicting pain on another
human being and worse, making a buck two-fifty in the process.

I am sorry that you were forced to give in. That's the worst
part of the story. To give in to those who would destroy, hurt,
embarrass and take pleasure from the resulting process, this
would be the hardest part for me.

It's OK to be critical, to take a position opposite someone
else. It's OK to crack wise too. But it's not OK to cross that
line, the one where the criticism inflicts pain. I am sorry this
happened to you. But, you do have the pleasure in knowing that
you have the wherewithal with which to fight those who've done
you wrong. Most of us don't have that.

You can look for me on 80 and 160 CW. I'll be the one with the
straight key fist. The only one with a clear, strong, chirp-free
signal calling CQ from Hartsdale NY. You can't miss me. Two
hundred and fifty watts of power into two long wires, a DX 40
and an HQ170. Along with a Johnson Viking Matchbox and a linear.

I'll talk to you. The handle is Jim. The message in [Morse] code
will say, "This is where we belong, speaking like humans, having
our own built in delay switch... the one which precludes
spitting out venom and bile. Because you can't speak more than
25 or so words a minute with that set up you must think ahead
about what's about to come out your face.

Can't say I'll miss you. I won't since I can't tolerate the
show. But you will be missed. You are an institution of sorts.
And you gave in to the bastards. Can't say I blame you. But at
least you went out saying it like a gentleman.

Not me. I woulda gave 'em hell from my Gripple bottle.

73,

Jim Mortellaro








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   Apr > Apr 2

           Tonight On 'Strange Days... Indeed': Mike Woods & Grant

From: "Strange Days... Indeed" <sdi@cfrb.com>
Date: Sun, 02 Apr 2000 11:23:00 -0400
Fwd Date: Sun, 02 Apr 2000 11:23:00 -0400
Subject: Tonight On 'Strange Days... Indeed': Mike Woods & Grant

   --------------------
  /// Michael J. Woods
---------------------

Mike has a pithy, funny approach to UFOs. He toils in one of
the busiest TV news rooms in Canada. A former military
boxing champion with a lightning jab and a hefty roundhouse,
he applies both to his regular monthly columns on the program.
He's not to be missed.


   ---------------------------
  /// Grant Cameron - Part II
----------------------------

Grant is one of Canada's leading authorities on Wilbert B.
Smith.

We ran out of time two weeks ago, while discussing Grant's trip
to and impressions of the Laughlin, Nevada UFO Congress. We
barely scratched the surface of his 'major' - hence his quick
return to the program.


Grant became involved in the field in 1976. That year and in
1977, he investigated the appearances of a series of small
objects that appeared on the ground in the Carman, Manitoba
area. This included over 100 field trips... recording of the
objects... and interviewing witnesses. While interviewing those
witnesses he had a number of sightings himself.

One of the witnesses to the Carman events, a radar technician
with the Canadian Department Of Transport, had worked in the
1950s with the late Wilbert B. Smith at the Canadian Department
of Communications. Grant was encouraged to study Smith's work by
the radar technician who directed him to a number of people who
worked with and for Smith.

Throughout the 1980s our guest reviewed documents related to
Smith and travelled to interview both the inner and outer circle
of people who had contact with Wilbert Smith during his UFO
investigations for the Canadian Government.

His Smith research led to a living witness to the inner workings
of the US Government's UFO situation - Dr. Eric Walker - a
former President of Penn State University.

In the late 80S Grant co-authored a book titled 'UFOs, MJ-12,
And The Government' with T. Scott Crain. It details the work of
Wilbert Smith, and Dr. Walker's disclosures about MJ-12 and what
the Government actually knew.

Grant had only casual interest in the field during the 90s.

At present he's researching the "Evil Alien versus Good Alien"
debate... and comparing the Wilbert Smith revelations of the
1950s to what present researchers and evidence are indicating.

For those of you having difficulties in connecting to CFRB's
server via the web, please note the connection info below*

Join Mike, Grant and co-host Jonn Kares and I, along with
callers at 21:00 Eastern, as we discuss these Strange Days...
Indeed on:

News Talk Radio Toronto - CFRB 1010 AM - 50,000 watts

CFRX in the 40 Metre band at 6070khz Shortwave

and the Eureka Digital Broadcast System in Toronto.

You can also listen via Media Player by opening the
player and pasting the following URL into 'File'/'Open':

http://cfrb.com/cfrb.asx

and connect ahead of time - the site gets really busy.

To call the program dial:

On-Air     [1] 416-872-1010
            1-800-561-CFRB [In Ontario]
            *TALK [local mobiles]

Next Sunday night: 'Shadow Craft'

The following programs are available for downloading to your
RealPlayer from the expanding SDI Archive at:

http://members.xoom.com/strangedaysi/sdix.htm


022 - 03-28-99 - Dr. David Jacobs - Abductions & 'The Threat'

027 - 05-02-99 - Larry Hatch - The *U* UFO Data Base

028 - 05-09-99 - Alfred Lehmberg - The Alien View

030 - 05-23-99 - Greg Sandow - Researcher Writer

031 - 05-39-99 - Bill Oliver - UFO*BC

032 - 06-06-99 - Larry Fenwick - The Canadian UFO Research
                  Network

033 - 06-13-99 - Dennis Stacy - Publisher 'The Anomalist'

049 - 10-03-99 - John Velez - Abduction Information Centre

066 - 01-31-00 - Lindy Tucker - Program  I - Beeping UFOs

068 - 02-13-00 - Lindy Tucker - Program II - Beeping UFOs

072 - 03-12-00 - Richard C. Hoagland - NASA & 'Mission To Mars'

073 - 03-19-00 - Grant Cameron - Program  I - Laughlin, Nevada
                  UFO Congress Report & Wilbert B. Smith

074 - 03-26-00 - Philip Mantle Former BUFORA Director of
                  Research Author, Santilli Associate







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   Apr > Apr 2

                            The 'Thought Screen'

From: Champ Bradford <mars_180@hotmail.com>
Date: Sat, 01 Apr 2000 21:54:41 -0600 (CST)
Fwd Date: Sun, 02 Apr 2000 11:38:39 -0400
Subject: The 'Thought Screen'


Hello,

This is Champ Bradford webmaster of www.theufoconspiracy.com

Recently, I conducted an interview with a man named Michael
Menkin, the creator of the first alien abduction prevention
method.

Michael has a rich background in science fiction, for his dad is
the creator of Captain Video, the first TV science fiction show
which ran from 1940 to 1956. His UFO interests began in 1952
when he saw a UFO over Port Chester, New York and in Davis,
California in 1969.

Today after almost fifty years of involvement in UFOs Mr. Menkin
has created a "Thought Screen" which, when worn during an
abduction, prevents an abductee being taken aboard a ship.
Michael got the idea from Doc Smith's novels, Galactic Patrol
and the Grey Lensman.

Micheal has used the thought screen helmets on several
abductees. Most report a one hundred percent success rate -
except for two, who where tranquilized and then brought aboard a
ship.

The thought screen helmet uses a leather hat which motorcyclists
call a Rocky Bullwinkle Hat. It is like the leather hat worn by
aviators in the 20's and 30's. It has 8 sheets of Velostat taped
to the inside. The Velostat works better than the other stuff
because it conducts electricity very well. The Velostat prevents
the aliens from using their mind control techniques on
abductees.

Wearing the "thought screen" depends on the person. One woman
wears it almost 24 hours, another wears it as much as possible,
others claim it works just by wearing it at night. From
Michael's research it is best to wear it as much as possible.

Altogether the thought screen helmet costs $188.56 with tax and
delivery. It takes a little over three and one half hours to
make. Mr. Menkin is still looking for a few more abductees to
test his helmet for free. Contact Michael Menkin at 425-454-2355
or e-mail him at mmenkin@nwlink.com.

Thanks,

Champ Bradford
www.theufoconspiracy.com







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   'Its All Here In Black & White'
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   Apr > Apr 2

                       Jeff Rense Weekly E-News 4-1-00

From: Rense E-News <jocelyn@dewittec.net>
Date: Sat, 01 Apr 2000 20:24:54 -0600
Fwd Date: Sun, 02 Apr 2000 11:44:02 -0400
Subject: Jeff Rense Weekly E-News 4-1-00

----------------------------------------------------------------
                     Jeff Rense Weekly E-News
----------------------------------------------------------------

                         The Week Ahead
                       4-1-00 thru 4-8-00

            Guests, Announcements, Week's Top Stories
                        From sightings.com

                Jeff Rense E-News is distributed
                exclusively by Free Subscription.

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                      * FROM JEFF'S DESK *

I have known Art Bell on both a personal and professional basis
for several years and have worked through some very difficult
issues with him.

I honestly don't know how he has withstood the ordeal forced
upon him as well as he has, and been able to continue with his
program.  Unless you have done this kind of work, you cannot
have any idea of the energy and mental concentration it demands.
Under the best of circumstances, it is an extraordinary and
intensely unique daily challenge.

Reading his statement, as remarkably candid and forthright as it
is, doesn't reveal the full extent and depth of anguish he has
bravely been dealing with while continuing with his program,
even at a reduced schedule. The word heroic is certainly
appropriate.

As Art said, he is now going to intensify his efforts to clear
his name and to embrace his family with his full and undivided
energy.  All people of good will cannot help but wish this man
well.  Further, one may hope that once these grievous personal
and legal issues are resolved, Art may find his way back to the
airways doing what he does so uniquely.  We should all stop for
a moment and send Art, Ramona, and especially his son, our
prayers.

Good luck, Art, and a thousand thanks for all you have done for
so many over the years.

_____

The following is a fascinating story...could it be true?
What if only 25% is true...?

   From Kenny Young <ufo@fuse.net>
   4-1-00

   I am hopeful that someone might be familiar with the following
   account from a 1952 newspaper article and could kindly resolve
   a few questions which arise.

   Would anyone know of this Joseph Rohrer, if he was who he said
   he was?  If so...why would he be presenting this information in
   a meeting of this nature?  Whatever came of him, or has
   anything been said otherwise to lend credence to the following
   remarks?

   I'll be looking forward to any insight or comments on this
   one...

   Thanks,
   Kenny Young
_____

     Flying Saucer Talk Startles Chamber Membership Meeting
     Pueblo [Colorado] Chieftain, Page Three
     July 23, 1952

     A three-foot tall pilot of a flying saucer from another
     planet has been kept alive in an incubator room in the state
     of California for two years, and progress is being made in
     efforts to communicate with him, startled Chamber of Commerce
     members were advised here Tuesday.

     Information on the still mysterious individual who reportedly
     was rescued from a "saucer crash" in Montana was divulged at
     the Vail hotel luncheon by Joseph Rohrer, president of the
     Pikes Peak Broadcasting Co.

     The reputed lone survivor among crews of three saucers that
     have fallen in that state "has been shown pictures and has
     shown great interest in them and primary steps used in
     teaching a child to read and write are being employed," the
     speaker stated.

     In his revealing talk Rohrer said dissection of dead pilots
     from the craft disclose that the only basic difference in
     anatomy is that their bone structure is heavier and their
     stomachs are smaller.

     The speaker, alleging that he was inside one of the seven
     flying saucers at a California federal base in 1942, said
     that the mechanisms are giant flywheels covered with metal
     skins.

     He stated that the saucers are covered by electrostatic
     turbines and have cabins in the center. The cabins are
     pressurized and have an atmosphere containing 30 percent
     oxygen and 70 percent nitrogen.

     Thru use of the flywheel, a magnetic field is created which
     permits the saucers to travel at tremendous speeds, said
     Rohrer, who became interested in flying saucers as the result
     of a thesis he wrote on electronic tubes used to measure
     electronic tubes during his college training in electrical
     engineering.

     "If a magnetic field is opened around the earth it would be
     possible to travel at about the speed of light," he stated.
     "They have never tried to fly the saucers that have been
     captured. They are put together in five sections and come
     apart easily after the center section is removed.

     "I have been in one which is 100 feet in diameter and 18 feet
     thick," Rohrer stated. "The sleeping quarters for crew
     members are tubes with caps on the ends and the cabin was
     pressurized and air conditioned."

     The color of flying saucers changes because of the magnetic
     field set up by the magnetic motors, he said. Reports of a
     flying saucer seen successively over Colorado Springs, Pueblo
     and Trinidad have made it possible to estimate its speed at
     more than 1,000 miles per hour. Six weeks ago a space ship
     was traced for 600 miles as it flew across Australia and in
     Seattle, Wash., all electrical appliances were burned out or
     fuses were blown in one section of town when a flying saucer
     "turned on power in the vicinity of a power line," Rohrer
     maintained.

     Little information has been released by the government on
     flying saucers because of the possible panic that might
     result and because some religious leaders object to the
     thought of other universes, he stated. Venus, with its cloud
     covering, is one of the most likely planets in the solar
     system to support life, but there are 22 other known solar
     systems which have satellites similar to the earth's. By
     traveling at the speed of light and waiting until Venus and
     the earth were closest in their orbits around the sun, it
     would take about two years to fly to Venus and return, he
     pointed out.

     Flying saucers first became evident when radar was being
     developed in 1942 and "unknown" objects appeared on radar
     screens.

     The air force set up a commission to study saucer reports in
     1947 and discovered that 20 per cent of the reports could not
     be explained satisfactorily. The air defense command at
     Colorado Springs has a unit designed to study the saucers and
     a pin-marked map showing saucer reports indicate they are
     seen frequently around military installations and atomic
     research centers, he added.

     End of article

   UFO Research
   http://home.fuse.net/ufo/

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    "One of the sanest, surest, and most generous joys of life
    comes from being happy over the good fortune of others."
                               ~ Archibald Rutledge ~

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        Hidden Mysteries of the Pyramid by David H. Lewis

     Still the single most referred book on our list of 100.
        http://www.hiddenmysteries.com/redir/item1.html

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                        * TOP STORIES *

           Just a few of last week's most intriguing!
                      http://sightings.com

   * Art Bell Retires
   * UFO Lawsuit Dismissed By Federal Judge In Phoenix
   * New Weather Modification Research Papers By Dr. Bernard J.
       Eastlund
   * US Child Murder Rate Soars - Firearms Least Of Factors
   * Hong Kong In Strange Seizure Of Armored Personnel Carriers
   * US And Britain Assure EU They Are Not Spying...
   * Urban Babies Loaded with Environmental Toxins
   * Excellent Daytime UFO Photo From Brazil
   * Presidential Candidate Harder Issues Formal UFO Statement
   * Ukraine Bans Danish Beef Over Mad Cow Fears
   * Model 12 Yr Old Student Defends 2nd Amendment - Flagged As
       Violence Risk
   * The Red Chinese Secret Police in the United States, Part One
   * Why GAS Costs $2.00 Per Gallon
   * EU Calls For Compulsory Mad Cow Testing
   * The Battle of Athens, Tennessee
   * UPDATE 'Dear Police Officer...'
   * Chinese Missiles Could Hit US Forces
   * New treatment Ends Varicose Veins With Radiowaves
   * Iraq - Power Struggle Brewing Between Sons of Saddam
   * In Search Of American Drug Lords
   * Solar Warning - Physicist Predicts Major Damage
   * The Lowdown On Aspartame (NutraSweet)
   * NY UFO Sightings - Another Seen From Airliner Over Arkansas
   * Hep B Spread The Same As HIV But '100 Times' More
       Communicable
   * Federal Judge Puts Brakes On Census Bureau
   * Submit National Chemtrail Protest Letter Here

Read these stories and more at http://www.sightings.com

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                     * THIS WEEK'S GUESTS *
                          4-2 thru 4-8

(Please note Jeff's Guest schedule can change due to late
breaking stories, etc)

SUN 4-2 - Encore
    Dr. Len Horowitz:  Update AIDS, Vaccines; Healing Celebrations
    Brendan Cook, Barbara McBeath:  Ghost Voices

MON 4-3
    Jim Condit, Jr:  VoteScam - The Game Continues

TUE 4-4
    Marcia Baker:  The Contrived Oil Crisis
    Philip Mantle:  Top UK UFO Researcher

WED 4-5
    Michael Lindemann:  Monthly World UFO Report
    Pending

THU 4-6
    MUFON Report

FRI 4-7
    Dianne Harrison:  UFO Report From Oz
    Pending

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   Apr > Apr 2

                    Beer Company to 'Buy' Marfa 'Lites'!

From: Todd Lemire <tlemire@home.com>
Date: Sun, 02 Apr 2000 08:35:23 -0400
Fwd Date: Sun, 02 Apr 2000 11:45:30 -0400
Subject: Beer Company to 'Buy' Marfa 'Lites'!


Miller Lite is Negotiating to Become Exclusive Beer Sponsor for
the Mystery Lights of Marfa, Texas; Brewer May Become First to
Own Rights to an Unexplained Phenomenon.  Full Story at link
below.

http://news.excite.com/news/bw/000331/wi-miller-brewing-co


Todd Lemire
Michigan UFOCENTRAL
http://members.home.net/tlemire/UFOCENTRAL.html
--
An expert may be defined as someone who can make you feel stupid
for offering your opinion.  Fortunately, as physicist Philip
Morrison once said, ufology "is a field in which there aren't any
experts.







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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 >
   Apr > Apr 2

                            Alfred's Odd Ode #342

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Sun, 02 Apr 2000 07:45:46 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 02 Apr 2000 11:49:13 -0400
Subject: Alfred's Odd Ode #342


Apology to MW #342 (For April 2, 2000)

There WAS the flap they called it, and they scrambled -- that's
a fact. Folks were seeing *something*, and for days -- imagine
that! This was early in the fifties, when we loved our Uncle
Sam, before we knew his strawmen, and began to understand.  Oh,
all around the capital of the nation with the bomb (?); it's
there in print and picture, and it's been there all along. UFO's
were flying where the people HAD to look. Folks were clearly
rattled -- sensibility was shook! There WAS a penetration of our
airspace so profound that many eyes must watch the skies for
what baffles and confounds.

It started on July thirteenth, about sixty miles from town.
Reports are most unsettling -- are amazing;  they astound! An
airline crew is flying in, the weather's  CAV-OK, the ceiling
was unlimited -- they could see for days and days. A blue-white
ball of brilliant light APPEARED and matched the course of a
staff of worried pilots; the stews all saw, of course. Oh, think
astonished passengers as effulgence flashed its light, and
blue/white brilliance zooms up close -- a perspicacious sight!
And, then to watch in wonder as away it hurries off -- at a
thousand miles an hour, and straight UP the pilots clock!

The next day is a mirror -- the highly strange transpires. A
southbound jet's accosted, and imagination's fired! Six strange
craft formation fly and flip their edges wide and high to climb
in graceful arks that night (!!) -- takes breath away with such
a sight. Oh, with that jet they calmly flew then blinked on out
-- away they knew (?), but not in sequence they would *dim* the
pilot/crew reports to *men*. Interrogations DID ensue. The Air
Force pressed, a bit unglued -- but men and women saw, yes, THAT
. . . which radar saw! This caused the flap! On this date in
Newport News, reports came in -- "red saucers [flew]." They flew
a way and manner -- strange. Those that saw... said "flew
[deranged]". With speed too high and turns too steep, these
craft were seen to soar and cleave!!

In Hampton roads, July sixteenth, a man is working late, it
seems. He takes a break to go outside to cop a smoke I would
surmise. Looking south, a pair of lights (!) would zoom on up to
pierce his night! Dodging back in tight U-turns they danced like
flies to twist and burn! The witness is a man who'd know, an
engineer of planes we've flown. "These maneuvers are extreme --
would kill and are beyond our dreams!" Joined by other lights
that *try* the pair are four (!?!), and south they fly!

July eighteen, nineteen -- twenty, anomaly occurs aplenty.
Orange/red disks fly single file for witnesses bereft of guile.
Radar sees them too, you know -- a different kind of seeing
though. Written *off* as air inversion, targets seen agree --
concurring!  Pilots see what radar sees and still some scoff
from thick-skinned knees! Shooting stars without their tails
move up or down and are detailed. "At all times," was the
report. "they coincided [in cavort]." Eyes and radar would agree
that what was seen was there, indeed.

On the airbase five confirm what radar sees the eye discerns.
Pilots in the airspace see these flying disks are flying free.
UFO's -- tracked twenty minutes! Ten or more at once, they tell
it, flying to the runway hard to scatter like exploding shards!
Moving like weird wraiths of light, direction changes out of
sight, many saw them there that night at Andrews airbase --
causing fright. Too sharp turns in weird directions, from
entities beyond conjecture -- quicken my imagination (!)
...Admit it, this is too amazing!

The twenty-sixth came by at last, and by THIS time there're
folks aghast! Nothing's being done they feel, our *impotence* is
plainly real. Government won't have a clue (?), their impulse is
to LIE to you. They give it spin and obfuscation, then act just
like it never happened. But jet-planes scrambled out of fright
for threatened airspace clothed by *lights*. Our capital was
ringed with craft that ruled our skies (and that was that).
Interceptors, we thought hot, were left as though they'd simply
stopped... pilots hurt when they stepped out to find they
hadn't landed -- ouch!

Something *took* the sky that night and treated us like boys, no
jive. We were children to what flew these craft we SAW in
fifty-two! IS this why we HAVE denied it? That we can't measure
up? Deny it? That we are without a clue as to what they mean or
what's the truth? Is this WHY we haven't bitched, and ridicule
rewards this niche? Is this why there's no respect for people
asking questions yet? This was BIG -- it filled the skies, but
we had trust that's now denied, and yes that trust has been
abused, BETRAYED, accosted, and confused.

There is more than some let by. They're locked into position's
why. Some have let the secrets fall where some would keep them
-- on their call. All convenient, arbitrary. All self serving,
canted -- scary. All contrived to keep from YOU the answers you
would HAVE, it's true. Think -- if the news was really bad,
they'd mobilize us -- make us mad! They would use us in an army
they would make (but do no fighting). Yes, fulsome answers would
undo their method of controlling you. The Buddhists left to make
the sense, as all the rest are flushed and rinsed. Power's
individual; autonomy is usual; you provide your own belief
beholding naught to priest or thief! This'll scare them -- YOU
cut loose, independent... full of juice. This provokes the bare
faced lie that nothing strange flew Truman's skies. This was it,
their bland indifference -- disrespect for YOUR deliverance.

Lehmberg@snowhill.com

Restore John Ford

--
~~~~
EXPLORE Alfred Lehmberg's Alien View" at his Fortunecity URL.
http://www.alienview.com
                  **Updated All the TIME**
http://www.fortunecity.com/roswell/witches/237/lehmberg.html

JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND -- John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is -- the more attention
he gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail.
$350.00 pledged -- $200.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see from
afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, burned at a
skepti-feebroid stake.








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   'Its All Here In Black & White'
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   Apr > Apr 3

                  Re: Beer Company to 'Buy' Marfa 'Lites'!

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 02 Apr 2000 23:42:55 -0400 (EDT)
Fwd Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2000 08:55:58 -0400
Subject: Re: Beer Company to 'Buy' Marfa 'Lites'!


 >Date: Sun, 02 Apr 2000 08:35:23 -0400
 >From: Todd Lemire <tlemire@home.com>
 >Subject: Beer Company to 'Buy' Marfa 'Lites'!
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >Miller Lite is Negotiating to Become Exclusive Beer Sponsor for
 >the Mystery Lights of Marfa, Texas; Brewer May Become First to
 >Own Rights to an Unexplained Phenomenon.  Full Story at link
 >below.

 >http://news.excite.com/news/bw/000331/wi-miller-brewing-co


 >Todd Lemire
 >Michigan UFOCENTRAL
 >http://members.home.net/tlemire/UFOCENTRAL.html
 >--
 >An expert may be defined as someone who can make you feel stupid
 >for offering your opinion.  Fortunately, as physicist Philip
 >Morrison once said, ufology "is a field in which there aren't any
 >experts.


"Call for Philip Morreeeeeson....."  Whilst Mr. Morrison has his
own opinion in the matter of expert Ufologists, all those
experts _in_ Ufology would not agree with his sentiments.

Jim Mortellaro






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   Apr > Apr 3

                          Re: The 'Thought Screen'

From: GT McCoy <gtmccoy@harborside.com>
Date: Sun, 02 Apr 2000 21:18:05 -0700
Fwd Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2000 08:58:34 -0400
Subject: Re: The 'Thought Screen'


 >Date: Sat, 01 Apr 2000 21:54:41 -0600 (CST)
 >From: Champ Bradford <mars_180@hotmail.com>
 >Subject: The 'Thought Screen'
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >Hello,

Hello, to you too, Champ (and Listers)

 >This is Champ Bradford webmaster of www.theufoconspiracy.com

 >Recently, I conducted an interview with a man named Michael
 >Menkin, the creator of the first alien abduction prevention
 >method.

 >Michael has a rich background in science fiction, for his dad is
 >the creator of Captain Video, the first TV science fiction show
 >which ran from 1940 to 1956. His UFO interests began in 1952
 >when he saw a UFO over Port Chester, New York and in Davis,
 >California in 1969.

Yes, I remember Cap'n Video, Rodger Ramjet too.-belieing
my age.

 >Today after almost fifty years of involvement in UFOs Mr. Menkin
 >has created a "Thought Screen" which, when worn during an
 >abduction, prevents an abductee being taken aboard a ship.
 >Michael got the idea from Doc Smith's novels, Galactic Patrol
 >and the Grey Lensman.

 >Micheal has used the thought screen helmets on several
 >abductees. Most report a one hundred percent success rate -
 >except for two, who where tranquilized and then brought aboard a
 >ship.

Fine, maybe they weren't wearing say, a Pig or Horse hide
helment. or Sheepskin like mine, maybe it's the Cowhide that
serves as say an Alien magnet?

 >The thought screen helmet uses a leather hat which motorcyclists
 >call a Rocky Bullwinkle Hat. It is like the leather hat worn by
 >aviators in the 20's and 30's. It has 8 sheets of Velostat taped
 >to the inside. The Velostat works better than the other stuff
 >because it conducts electricity very well. The Velostat prevents
 >the aliens from using their mind control techniques on
 >abductees.


Rocky and Bullwinkle - my own 60's heroes, they mangaged to
insult both the Russians and Canadians at the same time.(Not
that I am inclined to do either, mind you) and be very funny
doing so.


 >Wearing the "thought screen" depends on the person. One woman
 >wears it almost 24 hours, another wears it as much as possible,
 >others claim it works just by wearing it at night. From
 >Michael's research it is best to wear it as much as possible.

How about aluminium, er, aluminum foil? under or stylishly, over
said helmet? as opposed to the velostat stuff-whatever that is.

 >Altogether the thought screen helmet costs $188.56 with tax and
 >delivery. It takes a little over three and one half hours to
 >make. Mr. Menkin is still looking for a few more abductees to
 >test his helmet for free. Contact Michael Menkin at 425-454-2355
 >or e-mail him at mmenkin@nwlink.com.

Sorry to say this , but shielding my thoughts from aliens is one
thing but it won't work on my wife. (that's why  can't lie; it
never works.) Plus $188.56 clams seems a bit steep unless the
quality of the helmet is assured:No oilspots, as Petrolium or
worse, Castor if flying behind a WW I rotary engine, no bullet
holes, (self explanitory) no scuffing from hitting the canopy on
bailout, or from whacking  the student pilot with a rolled
chart. (Lord, I was tempted , though I was in a Cessna -no
helmet nesissary)


 >Thanks,

 >Champ Bradford
 >www.theufoconspiracy.com

Well good luck, though I don't quite buy your story, its a
good one,

GT McCoy







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   Apr > Apr 3

                      TMP News: Weekly Briefing 4.3.00

From: Paul Anderson <psa@direct.ca>
Date: Sun, 02 Apr 2000 23:28:54 -0700
Fwd Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2000 09:01:15 -0400
Subject: TMP News: Weekly Briefing 4.3.00


TMP NEWS
The E-News Service of The Millennium Project

http://persweb.direct.ca/psa

April 3, 2000

_____________________________


WEEKLY BRIEFING
4.3.00


ASTRONOMERS DISCOVER FIRST EXTRASOLAR PLANETS SMALLER
THAN SATURN
http://www.spacescience.com/headlines/y2000/ast30mar_1.htm

P3N BULLETIN: FEDERAL JUDGE DISMISSES UFO LAWSUIT
http://persweb.direct.ca/psa/judgedismisses.html

ART BELL RESIGNS FOR GOOD - OFFICIAL STATEMENT
http://persweb.direct.ca/psa/artresigns.html

ART BELL RESIGNS - ASSOCIATED PRESS
http://persweb.direct.ca/psa/artresigns2.html

2001 MARS LANDER MISSION CANCELED
http://www.cnn.com/2000/TECH/space/03/28/lander.report.03/index.html

PHOTOS SHOW MARS' TERRAIN TOO RUGGED FOR NASA'S LANDERS
http://persweb.direct.ca/psa/marsphotos.html

MARS PROGRAM ASSESSMENT REPORT OUTLINES ROUTE TO
SUCCESS
http://persweb.direct.ca/psa/marsreport.html

DID LIFE ARISE FROM VOLCANIC GAS?
http://www.spaceref.com/news/viewpr.html?pid=1276

HARVARD PHYSICISTS SLOW LIGHT TO ONE MILE PER HOUR
http://eetimes.com/story/OEG20000328S0061

MILLER LITE TO BECOME EXCLUSIVE BEER SPONSOR FOR 'MARFA
MYSTERY LIGHTS'
http://news.excite.com/news/bw/000331/wi-miller-brewing-co


_____________________________


See also the TMP web site for complete listings of news stories,
reports and related information and links:

http://persweb.direct.ca/psa

_____________________________


TMP News is the electronic news service of The Millennium
Project, providing weekly briefings of the latest relevant news
stories and reports, as well as information and updates on
TMP-related news and events. TMP News is edited by Paul Anderson
and published by TMP, and is available free by subscription; to
be added to or removed from the mailing list, send your request,
including "subscribe TMP News" or "unsubscribe TMP News" and
e-mail address to:

psa@direct.ca

For further information, submissions or inquiries, forward all
correspondence to:

THE MILLENNIUM PROJECT

Suite 202 - 2086 West 2nd Avenue
Vancouver, BC   V6J 1J4   Canada
Tel / Fax (Office): 604.731.8522
Tel (Cell): 604.727.1454
E-Mail: psa@direct.ca
Web: http://persweb.direct.ca/psa

_____________________________


� The Millennium Project, 2000








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                             'Batmobile' on Mars

From: Sean Jones <tedric@tedric.demon.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 02 Apr 2000 17:05:27 +0100
Fwd Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2000 09:05:42 -0400
Subject: 'Batmobile' on Mars


News from the SCI FI Weekly Site:

NASA engineers have called Batman's car designer for advice on
building anew generation of exploration vehicles to traverse
Mars, according to the Space.com Web site. George Barris, the
designer who created the Batmobile for TV and movies, received
the call from engineers at the Johnson Space Center in Houston,
the site reported.

"I'm usually the one who gets the call from motion picture and
television studios to design and build vehicles for film and
TV," Barris, now in his late 70s, told Space.com. "This is the
first time I have been contacted by NASA for the real thing."

Engineers from NASA's Mars EVA (extra vehicular activity)
project office called Barris after they came across a model of
Barris' "Moon Scope," a full-size working six-wheeled vehicle
designed in the 1960s for lunar exploration. NASA is now
cooperating with Barris, who has given the space agency
permission to use any of his designs.

Barris is a longtime designer of fantastic vehicles for
Hollywood, including the Munsters' hearse, the Green Hornet's
car and Knight Rider's talking Trans Am. Barris is scheduled to
receive the Life Career Saturn Award from the Academy of Science
Fiction, Fantasy and Horror Films in June.

--
    In an infinite universe, infinitely anything is possible.
                         Sean Jones
               http://www.tedric.demon.co.uk/








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                          Re: The 'Thought Screen'

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2000 02:57:36 -0400 (EDT)
Fwd Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2000 09:09:34 -0400
Subject: Re: The 'Thought Screen'


 >Date: Sat, 01 Apr 2000 21:54:41 -0600 (CST)
 >From: Champ Bradford <mars_180@hotmail.com>
 >Subject: The 'Thought Screen'
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >Hello,

 >This is Champ Bradford webmaster of www.theufoconspiracy.com

 >Recently, I conducted an interview with a man named Michael
 >Menkin, the creator of the first alien abduction prevention
 >method.

 >Michael has a rich background in science fiction, for his dad is
 >the creator of Captain Video, the first TV science fiction show
 >which ran from 1940 to 1956. His UFO interests began in 1952
 >when he saw a UFO over Port Chester, New York and in Davis,
 >California in 1969.

 >Today after almost fifty years of involvement in UFOs Mr. Menkin
 >has created a "Thought Screen" which, when worn during an
 >abduction, prevents an abductee being taken aboard a ship.
 >Michael got the idea from Doc Smith's novels, Galactic Patrol
 >and the Grey Lensman.
<snip>

Dear Errol and Listers,

I think that the following may be of interest to some of you
relative to the above post....

I was waiting for someone to come to grips with actually talking
about this device. For the record, I am in contact with three
people who have used the device _successfully_ for some time
now.

When someone first mentioned this device to me I immediately
went Gripple on the poor person and started laughing. I
figured, the thing did squat except to perhaps give greater self
confidence to the wearer. Maybe, I thought, this self confidence
had an affect on the wearer which gave them greater control over
their own minds. I may have been wrong.

To my surprise, and without the first person who told me of the
device knowing, I spoke with someone else who wears it most of
the time. Both abductees had been having very significant and
very frequent experiences, each with excellent recall without
the use of hypnosis. Today I spoke with a third person, same
results.

The first thing which came to my mind, as a perceived abductee
myself, is what my doctor once told me about hypnosis and
acupuncture for smoking cessation and other ailments. He said,
"If it helps, it's because you _believe_ it's going to help.
It's just _you_ helping yourself."

He now believes that there are medical reasons, not merely
emotional reasons, for both hypnosis and acupuncture working.
At least he has the honesty and professionalism to admit to his
erroneous thinking.

After speaking with someone else this very day about this
special hat, one who swears it works, I intend calling and
ordering one myself.

I wonder if I'll look like an overweight Bullwinkle going
through the window, belly up, wearing a leather aviator's hat.
If my wife thought I was funny looking without the hat, just
wait'll I put this one on every night, along with my Breathe
Right nose strips, Rosary beads, a .357 magnum nearby and the
tape recorder, the video "Abduction Cam" and a picture of agent
Mulder with a sign which reads, "Trust No One."

Jim Mortellaro







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   'Its All Here In Black & White'
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   Apr > Apr 3

                Beer & Quotes [was: Re: Beer Company to 'Buy'

From: EBK <updates@sympatico.ca>
Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2000 03:55:55 -0400 (EDT)
Fwd Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2000 15:56:14 -0400
Subject: Beer & Quotes [was: Re: Beer Company to 'Buy'


 >Date: Sun, 02 Apr 2000 23:42:55 -0400 (EDT)
 >From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >Subject: Re: Beer Company to 'Buy' Marfa 'Lites'!
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >>Date: Sun, 02 Apr 2000 08:35:23 -0400
 >>From: Todd Lemire <tlemire@home.com>
 >>Subject: Beer Company to 'Buy' Marfa 'Lites'!
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Miller Lite is Negotiating to Become Exclusive Beer Sponsor for
 >>the Mystery Lights of Marfa, Texas; Brewer May Become First to
 >>Own Rights to an Unexplained Phenomenon.  Full Story at link
 >>below.

 >>http://news.excite.com/news/bw/000331/wi-miller-brewing-co

 >>Todd Lemire
 >>Michigan UFOCENTRAL
 >>http://members.home.net/tlemire/UFOCENTRAL.html
 >>--
 >>An expert may be defined as someone who can make you feel stupid
 >>for offering your opinion.  Fortunately, as physicist Philip
 >>Morrison once said, ufology "is a field in which there aren't any
 >>experts.

 >"Call for Philip Morreeeeeson....."  Whilst Mr. Morrison has his
 >own opinion in the matter of expert Ufologists, all those
 >experts _in_ Ufology would not agree with his sentiments.

 >Jim Mortellaro

As a famed Canadian - or at least as famed as only a Canadian
can be - once wrote:

"The function of ufology at this early stage is not to diagnose and
explain but to observe and describe. Since we know so little
about our visitors, any 'expert' who thinks otherwise is in for
trouble." -- John Magor, 'Our UFO Visitors', 1977

ebk






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   Apr > Apr 4

                         Blather 03-04-00: The Event

From: Daev Walsh <daev@blather.net>
Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2000 11:37:16 +0100
Fwd Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2000 06:03:04 -0400
Subject: Blather 03-04-00: The Event


______________________________________________________
B  L  A  T  H  E  R

g o n z o   m e t a p h y s i c s

By Dave (daev) Walsh daev@blather.net
Web: http://www.blather.net
_______________________________________________________
March 31st 02000, Dublin, Ireland   Vol 3. No. 9
_______________________________________________________

THE EVENT

[The following article, duo to its graphical nature, is
available only on the Blather website]

Material pertaining to the infamous Princess Diana death of
August 1997 was recently recovered on a 'recovered' laptop by
Blatherskites Greg Barrett and Dave (daev) Walsh... A Blather
special on the phenomenon of bisociative coincidence.

Go to: http://www.blather.net/articles/the_event.html

______________________________________________________

POT CALLING THE KETTLE BLACK

        Father Dougal: God, I've heard about those cults Ted.
        People dressing up in black and saying Our Lord's going to
        come back and save us all.

        Father Ted: No, Dougal, that's us. That's Catholicism.

        Father Dougal: Oh right.
        (From TV Comedy Series *Father Ted*)


On March 22nd, 'The Irish Times' published two articles on the
antics of Mike Garde, Ireland's 'Cult Watchdog'. In response, we
issued a letter of criticism to the paper's letters editor,
which has yet to appear in print. If there were any other
critics of the cult articles, their incensed reactions are also
absent from the letters page.

What follows is an edited version of the letter despatched:


        It was with some despair that I read the almost xenophobic
        March 22nd article on Mike Garde, 'The Cult Watchdog'. My
        copy of the Concise Oxford English dictionary (not that I
        use it as a bible of 'true' language) describes a cult as
        'a system of religious worship esp. as expressed in
        ritual'. One of the many definitions of religion given is
        'a particular system of faith and worship'. However, in
        everyday vernacular, the term 'cult' seems to carry
        pejorative baggage, referring to any suspicious, occult, or
        simply 'crazy', form of belief. This has not been helped by
        a tradition of hyperbolic media coverage of Waco, Heaven's
        Gate, the Order of the Solar Temple, and other tragedies.

        While I full accept that some of Ireland's 'new religions'
        have questionable methodologies, and a fair share of
        disgruntled ex-members, I find it incredible that we, as a
        nation, can still allow our biggest umbrella cult (by
        dictionary definition), the mainstream Christian churches,
        to decide what does or does not constitute a 'cult'
        (pejorative definition). Are we to allow the big religious
        bodies to employ dog-in-the-manger tactics?

        As a cheerful agnostic, I bear no grudge to any religion in
        particular, but naturally enough, I would be concerned by
        any the behaviour of any organisation, religious or
        otherwise, which seems to be exploiting members. It's worth
        bearing in mind that only recently, Pope John Paul II
        apologised for the sins of Catholicism in the past.

        In closing, may I suggest that if any body is to take
        responsibility for keeping an eye on suspect 'cults', that
        it should be a Government sponsored independent body and
        not only include theologians, but also members from *every*
        Irish religion, regardless of creed or size, as well as
        members that are unaffiliated to any particular faith.

        Is mise, etc.,
        Dave (daev) Walsh




*The Cult Watchdog*, *The Irish Times*, March 22nd, 02000
http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/features/2000/0322/fea1.htm

*'Trust in God and everything will be alright'*, *The Irish Times*,
March 22nd, 02000
http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/features/2000/0322/fea2.htm

Father Ted: The Craggy Island Examiner
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/2694/craggy.html
______________________________________________________

COMPETITION NEWS

Giselle Ladouceur (who lives in Niagara Falls, New York, USA) is
the winner of our most recent Blather competition, and receives
a copy of Paul Devereux's *Re-Visioning the Earth*. There is no
Blather competition running at the moment, but anyone interested
in sponsoring a prize should consider contacting us
winstuff@blather.net.

For more on Paul Devereux (who we thank for his generosity),
visit his website at:

http://www.acemake.com/PaulDevereux/


*Re-Visioning the Earth*:

      Considered by the author to be one of his most important
      works, this book looks at the interaction of human
      psychology, perceptions and spiritual sense with the
      natural world through the ages, and explores the nature of
      place, especially sacred place. It ranges from the
      neurophysiological workings of human cognition to the
      poetic power of ancient sacred monuments - "the planet
      without, the world within". It includes much experiential
      material. A highly original, perceptive, groundbreaking
      work. It will take years for the scope of its message to
      truly sink in. Stanley Krippner, venerable consciousness
      researcher and Professor of Psychology at Saybrook
      Institute, San Francisco, says of this book: "Paul Devereux
      has articulated new ways in which humans can be at home
      with their earth... based on sound ecological principles as
      well as profound knowledge of the lifestyles of ancient and
      indigenous peoples. It is not an exaggeration to suggest
      that this book may be a survival manual for the 21st
      century." Dr Rana P.B.Singh, President of the Society of
      Pilgrimage Studies, says that this book "will be a
      path-maker for work on eco-psychology"

______________________________________________________

BOOK REVIEWS - recently added:

Fritjof Capra, *The Tao of Physics*
http://www.blather.net/bookstore/capra_tao.html

Iris Chang, *The Rape of Nanking*
http://www.blather.net/bookstore/chang_nanking.html

William F. Pepper, *Orders To Kill - the Truth Behind the Murder
of Martin Luther King, Jr.*
http://www.blather.net/bookstore/bookstore/pepper_mlk.html

Jeanette Winterson, *The Passion*
http://www.blather.net/bookstore/winterson_passion.html
______________________________________________________

Flann O'Brien: Comic Genius - At Disinformation (by daev)
http://www.disinfo.com/disinfo?p=folder&title=Flann+O%27Brien%3A+Comic
+Genius
(If this link doesn't work, go to
http://www.blather.net/forteana/index.html#disinfo)

Nature Ireland Mailing List
http://www.egroups.com/group/natureireland
'For everyone interested in the wildlife, flora and fauna of
Ireland including environmental and conservation issues.'

Dots
http://www.angelfire.com/de/pdemps/dots.jpg
A site for sore eyes. Need we say more?
______________________________________________________

UNCON 2000
Roll up, roll up for the strangest show on earth - feast your
eyes, soak your mind and taunt your disbelief! Among the topics
covered this year: ghosts, Atlantis, urban legends, living
monsters, UFOs, independent space travel, Stone Age psychedelia,
chaos magic, mind control, black helicopters, Scandinavian
Satanism, sea serpents, Cornish witchcraft, electrical
resurrection and more madness than you can fling a moose at.

Indulge your incredulity with our live exhibits: the last flea
circus, ghost hunting seminars, lessons in deception and the
world premiere of Owlman the movie! All this and more at Fortean
Times' UNCONVENTION 2000, 29 & 30 April, The Commonwealth
Institute, London.

Full details at http://www.forteantimes.com
_______________________________________________________


SPONSORSHIP:
While Blather will always remain free to the subscriber, we're
always willing to talk to interested parties with regard to
sponsorship or syndication
Contact: daev@blather.net

_______________________________________________________

For the Blather archives, please go to:
http://www.blather.net/archives/index.html

_______________________________________________________


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                              Re: Beer & Quotes

From: Todd Lemire <tlemire@home.com>
Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2000 20:01:56 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2000 06:50:41 -0400
Subject: Re: Beer & Quotes


 >Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2000 03:55:55 -0400 (EDT)
 >From: EBK <updates@sympatico.ca>
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca
 >Subject: Beer & Quotes [was: Beer Company to 'Buy' Marfa 'Lites'!]

 >>Date: Sun, 02 Apr 2000 23:42:55 -0400 (EDT)
 >>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Beer Company to 'Buy' Marfa 'Lites'!
 >>To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >>>Date: Sun, 02 Apr 2000 08:35:23 -0400
 >>>From: Todd Lemire <tlemire@home.com>
 >>>Subject: Beer Company to 'Buy' Marfa 'Lites'!
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>>Todd Lemire
 >>>Michigan UFOCENTRAL
 >>>http://members.home.net/tlemire/UFOCENTRAL.html

 >>>An expert may be defined as someone who can make you feel stupid
 >>>for offering your opinion. Fortunately, as physicist Philip
 >>>Morrison once said, ufology "is a field in which there aren't any
 >>>experts.

 >>"Call for Philip Morreeeeeson....." Whilst Mr. Morrison has his
 >>own opinion in the matter of expert Ufologists, all those
 >>experts _in_ Ufology would not agree with his sentiments.

 >>Jim Mortellaro

 >As a famed Canadian - or at least as famed as only a Canadian
 >can be - once wrote:

 >"The function of ufology at this early stage is not to diagnose and
 >explain but to observe and describe. Since we know so little
 >about our visitors, any 'expert' who thinks otherwise is in for
 >trouble." -- John Magor, 'Our UFO Visitors', 1977

 >ebk


Errol,

Great rebuttal to a signature file that I've intentionally kept
for longer than usual, and which has served it's intended purpose
well. It has also drawn similar comments from Mr. Friedman.

I have the utmost respect for those that post intelligently to
this list, but I refrain from those that spout unending lines of
historical content from already well documented cases, and are
on an ego trip because no one else can spout them as fast as
they can (this is directed at no one in particular). I believe
there is a significant difference between a UFO
historian/researcher and an "expert". The only experts that I'm
aware of concerning a UFO are the 'pilots/builders' themselves!
Although one may consider themselves to be an 'expert' on the
study and documentation of their (the UFO, and/or occupants)
actions.

There are also, what I believe should be called, "case
specialists" within the field of ufology, who are often arguing
unendingly with each other over _one_ or _two_ cases. There is
entirely too much valuable time wasted on trying to prove
oneself as an "historical expert" using the facts of one or two
particular cases, while so many other cases remain significantly
under investigated _today_. If half of the time that has been
devoted by researchers and investigators to the Roswell case for
instance, were directed toward other significant sightings,
trace effects, tracking down witnesses, etc., we possibly may
just have a better understanding of the UFO phenomena as a
whole. How much closer are we to solving Roswell today than we
were 40 years ago? So we prove they did recover a disk and a few
bodies, what are we going to do, march right on over and
'demand' they hand the remaining 'evidence', if any, over to the
public and then stomp our feet in a temper tantrum while
demanding that they tell us the truth... yeah right, it'll never
happen, even if we were to prove the Roswell incident as
undeniable fact!

In several more years the experts who are investigating this
case will be as old as the ones who witnessed the aforementioned
"event" (this is not meant to be an insult by the way), and all
devoted parties will soon be fading away. What does this leave
us?

We need to focus on the investigators and researchers who are
the future, not just developing more historical and documentary
"experts" to follow along in these same footsteps! The focus
should be on what is happening today, using the cases of the
past as a basis of reference for the investigations of today.
The historical aspects of a case will come from the
investigation all _by_itself_, if it's done properly. We know
what _hasn't_ solved past UFO investigations; we need to start
working on developing methods of investigation that will bring
us closer to solving this phenomena!

All the 'experts' here will be happy to go to their grave with
the title of 'UFO Expert' typed within the text of their
obituary, but what have you given future investigators to use?

Have you only displayed how well you can argue over who is right
and who is wrong, or how well you can argue whether this piece
of paper or that piece of paper is authentic or not, while
citizens across 3 separate states witness trace landings or
significant flybys that go virtually uninvestigated?

I'm sure there are many more people subscribing to this list
than the few that actually post here. Why don't we hear from
these people more often? Because they're intimidated by the so
called "experts" on this list. Some of us are here to learn, not
to judge a competition of "Who Knows the Most". We are not here
to negotiate a pissing contest amongst the "experts"! We want
you to pass on your knowledge, guide us, lead us by example!
Give us the tools to work with when you are no longer with us.
We will remember you when you're gone, you don't have to worry
about that.

There are also those here that only post when they have
something significant to say or reveal, and it is those that I
respect the most. These are the ones who are focused on ufology
today and in the future, bringing up the past only when it can
be applied to something that is being done to help solve
discover the origin of the UFO phenomena today.

I'm sure I will suffer the brunt of many 'experts' on this list
who happen to disagree with my opinions, and I emphasize here,
these are only my opinions. But how many others on this list
don't have the courage to voice their opinions for fear of
ridicule by these same so called "experts"? These 'experts' may
be silencing the voices and ideas of the person who may be on
the verge of solving this dilemma. Can you, the 'experts', live
with such a consequence of your actions and words? This will be
the last message, for the time being that this particular quote
will be seen at the bottom of. It has proven the point that it
was intended to prove, and I found that those who generally
disagree with the quote are those that are truly 'experts' in
the field of ufology.

Humbly and Gratefully Stupid,
Todd Lemire
--
An expert may be defined as someone who can make you feel stupid
for offering your opinion. Fortunately, as physicist Philip
Morrison once said, ufology "is a field in which there aren't any
experts.







   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 >
   Apr > Apr 4

                          Filer's Files #13 -- 2000

From: George A. Filer <Majorstar@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2000 23:25:04 -0400 (EDT)
Fwd Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2000 06:59:24 -0400
Subject: Filer's Files #13 -- 2000

Filer's Files #13 -- 2000,  MUFON Skywatch Investigations
George A. Filer,    Director, Mutual UFO Network Eastern
April 3, 2000,     Majorstar@aol.com  (609) 654-0020
Web Site at www.filersfiles.com. - Chuck Warren Webmaster

UFO REPORTS INCREASE IN MARCH

MAINE RECTANGLE SHAPED UFO

NORRIDGEWOCK -- We were coming home from work at 2:15 AM on
March 23, 2000, when we observed a blinding white light in the
sky.  We turned on to Winding Hill Road and the object was still
there so we pulled over and watched the object in the western
sky.  We killed the engine, then I got out of the car.  My wife
stayed in the car but could see it from her window.  There was a
river to the right of us and above the sandpit the object was
hovering about 700 to 1000 feet away.  At arm's length the
object was the size of a dime.  The light was as bright as a
floodlight laminating rays of light.  At times some rays seemed
bluish.  To my left I heard farm machinery running and behind me
I could hear the sound of tractor-trailer trucks on route 201A.
No sound was coming from the object.  At about 2:27 AM the
object rose very slow, then started heading in our direction.
My wife started to become very nervous.  The white light then
surrounded the object.  As it came closer my wife stepped out of
the car.  On the bottom of the object there were three large
orangish-yellow lights.  At this time the object was directly
above us. I could see a large rectangle structure with the
orangish-yellow lights in the center, around it a whitish light.
My wife saw the same form but was not sure how many lights there
were.  There was a slight swooshing sound, but we were not sure
it came from the craft.  The object headed east and its lights
got smaller and changed to a reddish dot, which disappeared into
the horizon. My wife and I have never seen a plane or helicopter
like this; there were no blinking lights.  Thanks to Peter
Davenport, National UFO Reporting Center www.nuforc.com

NEW YORK  CIRCULAR LIGHTS

FUTON -- About March 5, 2000, I was out on my nightly run.  At
about 8:40 PM, I was running past Lake Neantawanta in Futon,
when I noticed a bright white circular light ten feet above the
water.  This light stood in one spot with no noise of aircraft
or any other sort of sound.  As I shielded my eyes to look
around this light I noticed an orange rectangular light on top
of the white circle.  I watched this light for six minutes when
it suddenly disappeared.  The light never reflected off the
water.  Would you know if there have been any similar sightings?
Thanks to Mark A. Martin -- Odie1014 - CONNECTICUT SIGHTING
INVESTIGATION

Mark Cashman MUFON CT. State Director reports that, "On December
13, 1999, four witnesses observed two anomalous phenomena at
3:30 PM." The observations lasted for a total of 40 minutes.
The witnesses were two adult business owners 49 (Y) and 51 (F),
and his son 12, and a woman business associate (W), 80.  The
observations are broken into two phases.  Observation of an
estimated five contrails in sequence descending toward a ridge
to the west.  These contrails became visible in each case after
a bright star-like light appeared and were the width of the
light, and once reaching a specific length retained that length
without change.  Each contrail displayed a "puff" about halfway
to the hill that acted as the horizon.  The witnesses also
thought there was an orange flash as each light passed below the
tree-line.  One contrail split into two.  The witnesses believed
it was possible that the lights crashed on the hill, though they
heard no sound.  The contrails dissolved, including the puffs.
They observed two solid objects, gray in color, one
"bullet-shaped" with smoothly faired fins, and one spherical
with no seams or protrusions.  One witness observed an apparent
seam on the bullet-shaped object.  The objects, of large angular
size (3 inches at two feet), passed the witnesses at a
relatively close distance, and as they moved to the north
vanished in full view.  The location of the second phase was
about thirty feet to the east of the first at 41.81120 (Lat.),
-72.92348 (Long).  A third "phase" was the observation of a
number of aircraft identified as commercial Short Skyvans
believed looking for what they had just observed.  The two adult
men seemed credible and articulate but perplexed by the event.
The child offered a reasonable level of corroboration.  A more
detailed analysis can be found at mcashman@temporaldoorway.com:
Thanks to: Mark Cashman.

PENNSYLVANIA CIRCLE OF LIGHTS

ERIE -- Paula Borges  writes,   "A strange incident occurred on
the night of February 9, 2000, as my husband and I were driving
east on Interstate 90 out of Erie to the Cleveland Airport.  We
were catching a plane to our daughter's Boot Camp graduation
ceremonies.  I saw in the rear view mirror a large circle of
colorful lights moving in a rotating motion.  I told my husband
to look out the window, that there was something out there.  As
I turned around to see it better I got a momentary glimpse of it
once again and it vanished out of sight.  I was interested in
knowing if there has been any other reports of UFO's in this
area.  Thanks  Paula Borges --Lil PeaPot

MARYLAND  UFO VIDEO

BALTIMORE - Bill Bean writes, "I would like to report my latest
and quite possibly my greatest UFO footage."  I was video taping
over my backyard on March 28, 2000, and after reviewing the tape
last night, I discovered a silver disc UFO.  It had a black
bottom in the middle of the craft.  This object came from the
west and glided along at a moderate altitude and speed at 1:05
PM.  Another or the same UFO approached from the east and headed
west at 1:07 PM.  Two UFOs appear in the video from the east
within a few seconds of each other.  The first UFO circles and I
could actually see it rotate counter clockwise.  A second UFO
appears in the frame heading toward the first.  Both of them
sway from side to side, gain and then descend in altitude.  As
these incredible UFO's drew closer the second reversed itself
and followed by the first headed east.  The first UFO makes a
fast left turn and heads north.  Both UFO's zip away very fast.
This truly is fantastic footage.  God Bless Bill Bean.

GEORGIA GREEN FLASH

LA GRANGE - On March 28, 2000, a father and son reported they
saw a brilliant green flash in the sky at about 8:30 PM.  The 53
year-old father and his 30 year-old son were sitting on their
front porch when they saw what they variously described as a
"neon-green" to "fluorescent green" flash.  Looking to the north
the flash was seen at about 45 degrees above the horizon at an
altitude above what airliners customary fly.  The son, who had
uncorrected 20/20 vision in both eyes, said definitely above
15,000 feet but the father thought it was lower.  With an
apparent size of "one-eighth of the moon" the split-second flash
faded to a blue dot and then flew rapidly to the north.  Their
first reaction on seeing the large flash was an airborne flare
had ignited.  But the son, an ex-Air Wing Marine, said this
perception immediately changed on seeing the green light fade
quickly to a blue star-like dot that moved northward at a
tremendous speed.  The fast-moving blue light took only three
seconds to disappear. The Marine said the apparent speed of the
UFO was too great for a satellite or any jet plane.  There was
no sound. Weather conditions were 71 degrees F., little wind,
with a clear sky.  Thanks to John Thompson.

ALABAMA TRIANGLE

FORT DEPOSIT - MUFON GA State Director Walter Sheet's witness
reports, "On March 29, 2000, I was traveling north on Highway 65
when I noticed a very large triangular shaped craft and a
smaller craft cross over the interstate at 9:15 PM."  The larger
craft had three small dim lights at each end of the triangular
shape and a larger red light on one side.  Both were traveling
around 50 mph. The smaller craft had many lights and looked more
like a helicopter. By the time I had reached the part of the
interstate where they had crossed, they were over the trees
heading southeast.  I stopped my car on the side of the road,
got out, and continued to watch these two craft continue to
travel very slowly. I heard no noise at all from these two
craft. I got back in my car and continued to travel north.
About five minutes later I saw six military helicopters cross
the interstate in the opposite direction. I knew they were
helicopters by the very loud sound their blades made.  This all
happened about 25 miles south of Montgomery, AL.  Two years ago
this same craft was seen almost at an identical spot crossing
I-65 at extremely close range by a MUFON member and posted at
ISUR's website.

KENTUCKY FLYING TRIANGLE

COVINGTON -- Constance Griffith states on February 18, or 25,
2000, I saw a UFO at the entrance of the Brint Spence Bridge
crossing the Ohio River from Covington, Kentucky to Cincinnati.
I looked out my window at 9:30 PM and saw a strange sight above
me but was unable to stop the car, but I looked again and it was
still there.  I got one more chance to glance up again before I
was under the upper deck of the bridge.  I got three glances at
was three white lights in a triangle shape against a very black
background.  Each light was the size of a nickel held at arm's
length.  The night was dark but the lights did not seem to be
like any lights that I had seen on any airplane.  They were not
blinking or colored.  There was something very different about
them. I have lived close to airports all my life and these
lights were larger and in a perfect triangle.  Due to
construction work I could not stop or look back again, but this
was very different flying object.  Thanks to Constance Griffith
--copps@webtv.net.

ILLINOIS UFOs

MADISON COUNTY -- Ken Young reports he was contacted by a
witness who stated' "I am writing to you because a few of my
dads friends have reported seeing UFOs in the field across the
street where I used to live."  They said, that they have seen
the same object for twelve days in a row and it happens about 3
to 4:00 AM when one of them is getting home from work!  My uncle
has also reported a UFO sighting near by. These sightings are
coming from a field right behind Walnut Drive, Forest Homes,
Illinois between Bethalto and Alton a few miles north of St.
Louis.  I am serious and tell you the truth I'm a little scared!
Thanks to Kenny Young http://home.fuse.net/ufo/ and Kyle

MISSOURI CYLINDRICAL OBJECT

KANSAS CITY - Scott Thompson reports seeing a UFO on March 28,
2000, while traveling on Interstate Highway 69 around a curve
when he saw a UFO roughly the shape of a quarter on edge.  It
was moving slow from east to west at 4:05 PM flying at about
1000 feet altitude.  The object was self-illuminating or the
sun's glare was hitting it.  The object was an inch long at
arm's length and appeared dark looking without a tail.  He lost
sight of the object as he drove around the curve.  It seemed to
be shimmering a golden yellow.  He lost sight of the object for
about five seconds as he rounded the curve.  When he had a view
of the sky again the object had gone from sight.  He had a good
view of the sky but object had disappeared.  Thanks to Scott
Thompson telephone interview.  Editor's Note: Video has shown
that the craft accelerate at high rate of speed that is
difficult for the eye to follow.

OKLAHOMA FAMILY IS GAINING TIME

NEW MEXICO -- Brent W. writes, Consider me highly skeptical of
almost all UFO reports, but my entire family and I have had
experienced two unsettling occasions of not losing time, but
actually GAINING time."  On a trip through New Mexico, we
decided to detour to Clayton Lake to see the dinosaur
footprints.  The drive was a winding up and down road of 16
miles and it took nearly 25 minutes to negotiate.  On our return
trip we turned back toward town; and drove two miles to the base
of a hill, went up around the hill in a sweeping turn and
suddenly found ourselves back at the highway where we had
started from.  We tried to make sense of it as we continued on
our journey, but, there were no side roads to take an accidental
shortcut.  There was only a tall mountain that blocked our way,
but we came out at the exact spot where we had started.  Less
than five minutes elapsed for the 16 miles covered and we had
noticed the different landmarks on the way back.

OKLAHOMA -- At another time, we were traveling from Tulsa to
Oklahoma City on the Turner Turnpike, a straight 88 mile toll
road between the two cities.  It was after 10:00 PM and we had
stopped at McDonalds for a snack.  While we were waiting, we
asked our daughter what time she had since we had given her a
new watch and she was learning to tell time.  We jokingly made a
comment about the accuracy of our timepieces on Central Daylight
Time because the car clock read 10:20 PM, my watch 10:18 PM and
my daughter's 10:16 PM. Each were off by two minutes.  We left
McDonalds and joined the turnpike on what turned out to be the
strangest night I have ever encountered.  My wife became
hysterical when she saw a bright light in the sky.  As a former
pilot, the light was easily identifiably to me as a commercial
airliner on a standard approach path, but her reaction was
totally out of character for her.  None of us remembered very
much of the trip, because we were sandwiched between two large
trucks.  We came over a hill and were shocked to see the toll
booth at the halfway point.  It was impossible, but there it
was. We had traveled 42 miles in an elapsed time of 16 minutes.
We all checked the clocks and watches and the results were
shocking.  We had averaged 157.5 mph, which is of course
impossible for our car and the speed limit of 75mph.  We talked
about this at length remembering the previous Clayton Lake
anomaly.  The last 46 miles was uneventful and we arrived home
ahead of the expected time by nearly 20 minutes.  We used a
quarter tank of gas less than the drive should have taken.  Two
experiences with one of them timed by three different
timepieces.  Somehow we either gained time or distance (a
hypothetical possibility based on the gas consumption).  We are
highly skeptical people but perplexed! Thanks to Brent W.
--crowkiller06@hotmail.com.  Editor's Note: I have investigated
several cases where people have traveled across states in a
matter of minutes.  They also had witnesses to there location
prior to departure and after arrival.  They were traveling by
car and the only possible explanation was that they had been
transported by aircraft between the two locations at several
hundred miles per hour. Both sets of witnesses later remembered
being aboard a UFO.

OREGON UFO SIGHTING

PORTLAND - BB Smith writes, "I recently experienced an event
that I've yet to explain.  It involves a possible UFO sighting
that I witnessed on Thursday, March 23, 2000, around 12 noon,
near Beaverton/Portland area on a fairly well traveled two lane
road that curves through heavy trees and low elevation
mountains.  I'm a private pilot and was just returning from the
Scappoose airport after a one hour flight.  I was driving my
vehicle at the time of the sighting.  My question is who can I
write to that might be of assistance to me in sorting out my
experience.  Thanks to BB Smith  bbsmith@mciworld.com


SWEDEN SELLS ORANGE UFO BALLOONS

There have recently been a large number of orange UFO reports in
Sweden.  A company called "Planet-Pluto" sells UFO balloons that
are toys sold to fly up to 1.000 meters.  They are self
illuminated and provide an orange glow from the ground.  They
are being sold as toys through the mail and can be purchased and
flown anywhere in the world.  Slow moving orange objects moving
with the wind are likely to be these toys.  Sometimes they are
sent aloft with several even dozens in formation.  Thanks to
Clas Svahn   UFO-Sweden

ENGLAND FLYING TRIANGLE

EVINGTON, LEICESTER -- We were walking back from a nightclub on
March 20, 2000, at 3:00 AM when we noticed that there were two
triangular objects in the sky.  At first we passed them off as
planes but then the objects started shifting from one point in
the sky to another at a phenomenal pace.  They were
intercrossing between each other.  They were moving like that
for about ten minutes.  Then suddenly there was a flash of light
and then they were gone.  They moved around the sky at
phenomenal speeds.  We could not really see what color they were
because all we could see was triangular lights on the objects

BRITAIN'S FLYING SAUCER

Aviation writer Bill Rose writes, "I was responsible for the
placing the pictures of Project Y with the London Sunday Times
and I provided some of the background research.  However, you
should bear in mind that this feature was written by a member of
the newspaper's staff and it was aimed at a general readership,
so inevitably, some of technical and historical details were
left out.  John Frost and his Special Projects Group designed
the Project Y Manta aircraft to meet a Royal Canadian Air Force
(RCAF) specification and the configuration shown in the pictures
evolved from earlier VTOL disc shaped design, which proved too
complex to build.  Whether or not Frost was influenced by German
wartime studies remains a topic of some debate and while this is
a distinct possibility, there is still no absolute proof.  As
you correctly suggested, the Project Y design evolved into the
later Silver Bug flying discs which the USAF sponsored.  The
Project Y Manta certainly looked unusual, but it was just the
product of advanced engineering studies and had absolutely
nothing to do with aliens, Roswell, spaceships or UFO sightings
in Arizona during the late 1940s.  There is much more of this
fascinating story to be told and you can expect further
revelations during the coming months.  Many eyewitnesses claim
to have seen panels and struts with strange hieroglyphics or
symbols.  If anyone was really serious about finding out about
an alien Roswell crash, they would pin down the real crash site
and arrange for a series of geochemical surveys to be
undertaken.  I was assured by a couple of professionals that
even the most careful site cleanup would fail to remove all
traces of extraterrestrial material -- if it were present. While
I don't entirely rule out an alien crash, I personally consider
it highly unlikely and my money still goes on a crashed
high-tech spyplane or just possibly a B-29 with a nuke onboard.
I believe there are aliens out there, but visitation to our
planet is another matter.  I'd like nothing better than proof
that extraterrestrials are operating within our environment, but
so far, I've seen none.  That's not to say I have a closed mind!
Thanks to Bill Rose.

ARE THE ROSWELL SYMBOLS NATIVE AMERICAN?

Blessed Pipe Man Zephier writes the Roswell craft symbols you've
described, like a 'J' is a symbol that represents the
Iktomi-Spider, Holy Mother and the Buffalo Nation.  The reason
there is a trinity of representation is because of how Creator
has delegated responsibilities to All in the Universe.  First,
the Earth and the help needed on ground base, secondly, galactic
influence of Divine Mother to maintain a balance in this region
of the Universe, and thirdly, there is the Ascended Masters,
those who sit within the I AM presence-Council of Twelve.  There
is a Spiritual Hierarchy.  The symbol that looks like 'teepees'
as you have described, represents the Elements of Creation or
what we call Spiritual Web of the Universe, Grandmother Turtle,
Twin Flames and Singing Spider. This particular symbol deals
with Manifest Realm: Elohi and Lyra.  These symbols have a great
profound interpretation. This is the best I can do for you at
this time, but understand Native Americans have much to say
about symbols as this is a part of our heritage.  There is much
more that can be learned from these symbols.  Thanks to Blessed
Pipe Man Zephier, sakowin7sakowin@yahoo.com

Editor's Note: -- The symbols described by eyewitnesses and in
the debris seem to be similar.  Portions of the inside of the
craft held these symbols that may be Native American.  I spoke
with Tom Carey to obtain more information from Tex on his
participating in the recovery of an alien craft near Roswell.
Tex says that at least one of the pieces of metal had writing on
it "like hieroglyphics or numbers".  When pressed further, he
stated that it looked 'like hieroglyphics from Mexico or
something like that."  Meaning ancient Indian like Aztec or Inca
- cultures.  He said, there was the "awful smell of death" in
the vicinity of the wreck.  Thanks to Tom Carey.

PLANETS CONVERGE

April 6, 2000, three planets and the thin crescent Moon are
going to put on a memorable sky show when the quartet converge
inside a circle just 9 degrees across.  To admire the display,
simply go outside after dinner on April 6 and look toward the
southwest sky.  Around 8:00 PM local daylight savings time the
slender crescent moon will be easy to spot about 30 degrees
above the horizon.  The brightest nearby "star" will be Jupiter.
At magnitude -2.1, the giant planet is 8 times brighter than
Saturn, which glows pale yellow less than 3 degrees west of the
Moon.  Mars will lie a scant one degree north of Jupiter.  The
red planet (magnitude 1.4) will be about 3 times fainter than
Saturn (magnitude 0.3). Jupiter, Mars, and Saturn will appear to
be even closer together on April 15 when the three will fit
inside a circle less than 5 degrees across. That's the most
compact grouping of any 3 planets for the entire year.
Nevertheless, the display on April 6 will be more beautiful
thanks to the delicate crescent Moon as it passes by the trio.
But wait, there's even more: Cradled in the arms of the crescent
Moon will appear the ghostly outline of the full Moon, a dim
glow that astronomers call "Earthshine."

JOURNALIST ALLEGES BIOWARFARE TESTING

VANCOUVER -- Paul Anderson reports that award-winning
investigative journalist William Thomas will present on April 8,
an alarming and provocative findings from his eight-year
investigation into the current pandemic of auto-immune and
related ailments in a feature presentation entitled 'What's
Wrong with Our Skies?' at the Pacific Space Centre / H. R.
MacMillan Planetarium.  In his presentation, Thomas will reveal
how millions of Canadian, American and British citizens have
been subjected to "open air" biowarfare experiments without
their knowledge or consent.  He will show recent photographs and
videos of unmarked tanker-type aircraft flying in formation
spraying "chemtrail" plumes in complex 'X and grid patterns' in
the skies over many Canadian, American and European areas.  Is
this spraying biowarfare experimentation?  Covert inoculations
against terrorist attack or desperate attempts at atmospheric
remediation?  Assigned to this story by the Environmental News
Service in January 1999, Thomas will present the interim results
of his ongoing investigation into this aerial phenomenon widely
reported over many regions in Canada, the US and Europe since
the fall of 1998.  Referencing two US congressional
investigations, as well as recently released British Ministry of
Defence documents, Thomas contends that many cases of
"influenza-like illness", pneumonia and related symptoms
recorded at epidemic levels across much of North America and
England over the past two years are not the "flu". Instead, the
BC-based journalist will present evidence showing that many
emergency room patients suddenly stricken by acute
upper-respiratory distress and / or related heart disease and
auto-immune breakdown have likely been infected by manmade
pathogens created in bioweapons laboratories.  Calling himself
"a reluctant expert" in environmental and biological warfare,
the author of the extensively documented books SCORCHED EARTH
and BRINGING THE WAR HOME was the first Canadian journalist to
break the story of Gulf War Illness after his own health was
ravaged in Kuwait.  Thomas will trace the sudden emergence of
"stealth viruses," prion diseases, and auto-immune ailments
following decades of biowarfare experimentation rivaling the
atom bomb's "Manhattan Project". Thanks to Paul Anderson.
psa@direct.ca. Web: http://www.islandnet.com/~wilco/ Editor's
Note: I have no idea about the validity of these findings.  Its
amazing to me that the news media is not interested in their own
health and fails to cover the frequent spraying.

PHOTOGRAPH BOOKLET of some of the best UFO shots available and
data on their propulsion systems by US Navy Commander Graham
Bethune.. $10.00

BEFORE YOU BUY OR SELL A HOME SEE MY FREE REPORT -- All real
estate agents are not the same?  Some real estate agents or
sales representatives are part timers and inexperienced.  Others
are experts with an excellent experience and capabilities.  When
you are selling or buying your home, you need to make sure you
have the best real estate agent working for you before you make
any important financial decisions on one your biggest
investments!  Remember, the majority of people do not know the
right questions to ask, and what pit falls can cause major
problems.  Picking the right real estate agent can be a
wonderful experience, and picking the wrong one can be a big
mistake that can waste your time and cost you thousands!  Find
out, "What you need to understand before hiring any real estate
agent!" These are the questions that many agents do not want you
to ask.  Learn how you can obtain the best real estate agent for
your needs.  To get a free copy of this report, just call (609)
654-0020 or e-mail us at Majorstar@aol.com. We can also help you
with your own or corporate Worldwide Relocation to Australia,
Benelux, Canada, Cayman Islands, England, France, Guam, Hong
Kong, Israel, Japan, Mexico, New Zealand, Northern Ireland,
Papua New Guinea, Philippines, Puerto Rico, and all 50 states of
the United States.  We also have help with associates that speak
languages other than their native tongue.

MUFON UFO JOURNAL -- For more detailed monthly investigative
reports subscribe by contacting Mufon@aol.com. Mention I
recommended you for membership.  Filer's Files is Copyrighted
2000 by George A. Filer, all rights reserved.  Readers may post
items from the Files on their Web Sites provided that they
credit the newsletter and its editor by name and list the date
of issue that the item appeared.  Send your letters to
Majorstar@aol.com.  Sending mail automatically grants permission
for us to publish.  Please state if you wish to keep your name
or story confidential.









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   Apr > Apr 4

                     Re: Jeff Rense Weekly E-News 4-1-00

From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2000 23:40:51 -0400 (EDT)
Fwd Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2000 07:07:23 -0400
Subject: Re: Jeff Rense Weekly E-News 4-1-00


 >Date: Sat, 01 Apr 2000 20:24:54 -0600
 >From: Rense E-News <jocelyn@dewittec.net>
 >Subject: Jeff Rense Weekly E-News 4-1-00
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >----------------------------------------------------------------
 >                     Jeff Rense Weekly E-News
 >----------------------------------------------------------------

 >                         The Week Ahead
 >                       4-1-00 thru 4-8-00

 >            Guests, Announcements, Week's Top Stories
 >                        From sightings.com

 >                Jeff Rense E-News is distributed
 >                exclusively by Free Subscription.

 >                  --<>--   --<<<+>>>--  --<>--

 >                      * FROM JEFF'S DESK *

<snip>

 >As Art said, he is now going to intensify his efforts to clear
 >his name and to embrace his family with his full and undivided
 >energy.  All people of good will cannot help but wish this man
 >well.  Further, one may hope that once these grievous personal
 >and legal issues are resolved, Art may find his way back to the
 >airways doing what he does so uniquely.  We should all stop for
 >a moment and send Art, Ramona, and especially his son, our
 >prayers.

<snip>

Personally I would feel bad (even though I am not a big fan)
that Art permitted and allowed the pressure to cause him to
decide to quit. The bottom line is no matter what Art Bell does
or does not do, the "accusations" will always swirl around his
name.

The critics will say something along the line of "Well he quit,
so thats proof that something big and bad was going to come
out." The supporters will say something along the lines of "Well
he succumbed to the intense pressure...etc.

Even if Art wins big in court, the critics who were unloading
the story will be whining storys about the crooked
judge/criminal justice system/stupid jury/the evil lawyers/how
he got off on some technicality/or how they weren't allowed to
present the real crucial evidence because of one of the above
mentioned reasons.

You know what?

Even though they will be wrong, the supporters of the critics
and their theories will buy all those theoris being advanced,
much like people bought into Reed and his storys and claims at
Laughlin.

Art's supporters will rightfully say the victory was proof that
Art was innocent all the time. In the final analysis, much like
the alien autopsy video, the debate will continue on no matter
the outcome.

Personally, I would hope that Art doesn't buckle to the intense
pressure and continue on, like many other survivors and people
who went through bad times in their lives and still did not
quit.

cheers,

Robert







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                          Re: The 'Thought Screen'

From: Michael Menkin <mmenkin@nwlink.com>
Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2000 21:49:54 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2000 07:15:16 -0400
Subject: Re: The 'Thought Screen'


[Non-Subscriber Post --ebk]

 >Date: Sat, 01 Apr 2000 21:54:41 -0600 (CST)
 >From: Champ Bradford <mars_180@hotmail.com>
 >Subject: The 'Thought Screen'
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >Hello,

 >This is Champ Bradford webmaster of www.theufoconspiracy.com

 >Recently, I conducted an interview with a man named Michael
 >Menkin, the creator of the first alien abduction prevention
 >method.

 >Michael has a rich background in science fiction, for his dad is
 >the creator of Captain Video, the first TV science fiction show
 >which ran from 1940 to 1956. His UFO interests began in 1952
 >when he saw a UFO over Port Chester, New York and in Davis,
 >California in 1969.

 >Today after almost fifty years of involvement in UFOs Mr. Menkin
 >has created a "Thought Screen" which, when worn during an
 >abduction, prevents an abductee being taken aboard a ship.
 >Michael got the idea from Doc Smith's novels, Galactic Patrol
 >and the Grey Lensman.

 >Micheal has used the thought screen helmets on several
 >abductees. Most report a one hundred percent success rate -
 >except for two, who where tranquilized and then brought aboard a
 >ship.

 >The thought screen helmet uses a leather hat which motorcyclists
 >call a Rocky Bullwinkle Hat. It is like the leather hat worn by
 >aviators in the 20's and 30's. It has 8 sheets of Velostat taped
 >to the inside. The Velostat works better than the other stuff
 >because it conducts electricity very well. The Velostat prevents
 >the aliens from using their mind control techniques on
 >abductees.

 >Wearing the "thought screen" depends on the person. One woman
 >wears it almost 24 hours, another wears it as much as possible,
 >others claim it works just by wearing it at night. From
 >Michael's research it is best to wear it as much as possible.

 >Altogether the thought screen helmet costs $188.56 with tax and
 >delivery. It takes a little over three and one half hours to
 >make. Mr. Menkin is still looking for a few more abductees to
 >test his helmet for free. Contact Michael Menkin at 425-454-2355
 >or e-mail him at mmenkin@nwlink.com.

Champ,

Please adjust your cost.

A 150 foot roll of Velostate costs 188.56. I use about 6 linear
feet per helmet. The leather hats cost $25.95.

Each thought screen helmet costs me about $40 to make.

Also, nobody who wears the helemt is taken, period. The
experience depends on the user and the circumstances, but the
helmet has been effective for all users. Some users are taken
when they are not wearing the helmet, others are not. It depends
on the person.

The people who were overcome were using a helmet with a
different kind of shielding, metalized plastic anti-static bags.
The new helmet uses a carbonized polyfilm, Velostat, which works
much better. Nobody has been taken while wearing the Velostat
shielded helmet.

Seeing a UFO didn't get me interested in them. My father and I
were interested as he created the first successful TV science
fiction show, Captain Video.

Champ, I appreciate your support and interest but please rewrite
this as the pricing is wrong.

It's a whole 150 foot roll of Velostat that costs $188.56.

Thanks,

Michael Menkin









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   Apr > Apr 4

                     Re: Hoagland on Art Bell - 3-15-00

From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2000 23:53:19 -0400 (EDT)
Fwd Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2000 07:30:01 -0400
Subject: Re: Hoagland on Art Bell - 3-15-00


 >Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 04:05:38 -0500
 >From: Ron Cecchini <Ron.Cecchini@GD-CS.COM>
 >Subject: Hoagland on Art Bell - 3-15-00
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>


 >I'm sure some will flame me, but if there was ever *any*
 >doubt that Richard "Cydonia" Hoagland is completely out
 >of his mind, please just listen to the few hours he just
 >did on tonight's Art Bell.

Hoagland was the one who according to his (never wrong, top
drawer, never told a lie in their life) 'Government Sources',
that aliens were going to land on a mountain top in Arizona last
December. Never mind that it never happened, just go on to the
next tale and story being told.

 >Don't take my word for it, go to http://www.artbell.com &
 >look for the RealAudio for Wed, 3/15/00, ~1:30am - 4:00am

 >I think the guy could find a "pattern" (&, of course, a
 >'conspiratorial' pattern at that) in a pile of cow dung.

 >(oh, wait, cow dung probably does have a pattern in it...
 > well, you know what I mean.)

Naturally the pile of cow dung is similar in shape to this or
that pyramid, which is aligned with Orion, and is somehow
connected to Mars' orbital plane so naturally there is a big
connection. :)

 >If nothing else, the guy is making proclamation after
 >proclamation about what Brian DePalma was *REALLY* saying
 >in his movie ... all without, of course, having had to
 >first *ask* Mr. DePalma (who is allegedly ill communicado)
 >or confirming it with him.

Gee, why bother to talk to DePalma, when you can make a great
story without him.

 >& he's finding all kinds of hidden & secret messages in
 >NASA's Dan Goldin's comments about the future of the
 >space program, his desire to put humans on Mars, his
 >desire to have a photo of an extrasolar planet, etc.

Naturally... Never mind the fact that if you looked hard enough
you would probably find hidden and secret messages in everything
Hoagland says.

cheers,
Robert









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   Apr > Apr 4

                         Re: Cydonia: Where We Stand

From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2000 22:54:09 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2000 07:31:42 -0400
Subject: Re: Cydonia: Where We Stand


New material about our present state of knowledge re. Cydonia,
the 'Face', and other anomalies on Mars are now available
through the Cydonian Imperative at:

http://www.geocities.com/macbot/mtvi.html

I've attempted throughout to provide an even-handed chronicle of
this subject, and claim no final answers. If you're aware of any
inaccuracies or misrepresenatations, please let me know so I can
address them.

Thanks!



=====
Mac Tonnies
239 E. Sea
Independence, MO 65050
816-833-5910
macbot@yahoo.com
http://www.geocities.com/macbot/mtvi.html








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   Apr > Apr 4

              Discovering the Real Story of the Apollo Journey

From: Steven L. Wilson <Ndunlks@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2000 03:13:53 -0400 (EDT)
Fwd Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2000 07:50:26 -0400
Subject: Discovering the Real Story of the Apollo Journey


Source: ABC News

http://www.abcnews.go.com/onair/CloserLook/wnt_000331_CL_apollo_feature.html

Man on the Moon

Discovering the Real Story of the Apollo Journey

By Peter Jennings

NEW YORK,  March 31 - At the American Museum of Natural History
in New York City this week, the Star Wars generation is
discovering the real story of space travel: What their parents
did.

No one under 30 can really remember Apollo's remarkable journey
- but they can look back and learn. "The astronauts shot 32,000
pictures," says Michael Light, a curator for the exhibit. "Of
course if you take 32,000 pictures, there's going to be some
masterpieces." Michael Light has been through every frame of
film the Apollo astronauts shot on their various missions. He
found the masterpieces - and this magnificent display delivers
the magic of Apollo to a new generation.

They don't remember that hearts stood still when Apollo 8's Bill
Anders read from Genesis on Christmas Eve in 1968 as his
spacecraft craft emerged from the dark side of the moon. "In the
beginning," Anders said, "God created the heaven and the Earth."


An Array of Images

This generation missed the excitement when man first walked on
the surface of an alien world, as mission control gave us the
play-by-play,

"They've got the flag up now - you can see the stars and stripes
on the lunar surface." Some of the photographs in the the
exhibit are very unusual. Others are familiar, such as Buzz
Aldrin's footprints. All the footprints of the 12 men who walked
on the moon are still there, we presume. Light gives us a tour
of the exhibit and points to one photograph depicting the
surface of the moon, "This is an amazing picture in that it
shows how vast the moon is and how tiny the human presence was
there," says Light. "Apollo 17 seen from three miles away."


'The Vastness of the Moon'

And this is a picture of a picture on the moon. Astronaut
Charlie Duke's family. Duke took his family with him when he
made history. "It really touches on the loneliness," says Light,
"and the vastness of the moon."

There were six successful landings on the moon. Apollo 17's Gene
Cernan was the last to walk its surface on December 14th, 1972.

"What I believe history will record is that America's challenge
of today has forged man's destiny of tomorrow," Cernan said.

Maybe so. It's an eloquent thought - and it was such an exciting
challenge.








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   Apr > Apr 5

               Canadian 'Levitation' Researcher Busted - Again

From: ebk <updates@sympatico.ca>
Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 09:50:26 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 09:57:03 -0400
Subject: Canadian 'Levitation' Researcher Busted - Again


For the conspiracists and free-energy proponents among us:

A while back, a discussion jogged my memory of seeing a
Canadian West-Coast researcher who was conducting levitation
experiments.

I don't recall in which TV program the segment aired, but it
showed some of John Hutchison's home video of objects levitating
over a work bench and visiting, frustrated, scientists for whom
he was not able to reproduce his results.

It would seem that 'science' has not ignored Hutchison's
work.

ebk

_____

Source: John Hutchison's Web Page

http://www.geocities.com/ResearchTriangle/Thinktank/8863/index.html


Posted: Saturday, 18 March 2000

John Hutchison Raided At Gunpoint
By Canadian Police

Reporting From Shreveport, Louisiana


Word has been received this morning, Saturday, 18 March 2000,
that John Hutchison has been raided at gunpoint by Canadian
Police. John's apartment in New Westminster, British Columbia,
was raided at 2 PM Friday, 17 March 2000, by gun-wielding police
searching for firearms. An antique gun collection owned by
Hutchison was confiscated in its entirety.

According to Hutchison, a phone call was received at about 2 PM
Friday, stating that it was the police, and asking John to
answer his door. Hutchison states that there were 8 to 10
individuals pointing weapons at him, only two or three of whom
were in uniform. The rest were dressed in dark clothing.

Hutchison was handcuffed and placed on the outside steps while
police searched the apartment. No warrant was claimed or shown
at any time. Police stated only that there had been an anonymous
complaint that firearms were being brought into the apartment.

Police also called in an "electrical inspector" to examine
John's lab equipment. This is the famous "Hutchison apparatus"
with which John produces the renowned "Hutchison Effect."

Additional individuals dressed in suits were brought in who took
extensive photographs of the Hutchison apparatus. Hutchison
indicates that these persons had an "official air" about them,
and that they might be Government agents, especially given the
confiscation of the original Hutchison lab, which took place
while John was out of the country in 1990. None of these persons
showed any identification. Those who have followed John's career
of invention and innovation will recall that his first
laboratory was forcibly seized by the Canadian Government on 24
February 1990 by the direct order of former Canadian Prime
Minister Brian Mulroney. The Government has retained the lab in
spite of a court order by Judge Paris of the Supreme Court of
British Columbia to return it.

A previous raid on John Hutchison's apartment involving his
collection of antique firearms occurred in 1978, and processing
took two years. The confiscated antiques were returned at the
order of Judge Cronin. These events occurred under the
administration of former PM Pierre Trudeau. Former PM Joe Clark,
who took over in the 1980s following the Trudeau administration,
wrote to Hutchison offering help and support.

The present raid follows close on the heels of a recent
successful levitation performed 11 October 1999 which was
videotaped by John. The effect was achieved after six days worth
of attempts.

However, neighbours called local police to complain about
Hutchison's experiment. It is unclear whether something in
their apartment levitated, although there is no other way known
at this time that they could have been aware of the levitation
experiment that was in progress. The neighbours in question live
across the street from Hutchison.

The sound of approaching sirens was recorded on the video
soundtrack of Hutchison's camcorder during the experiment, and
video of some emergency vehicles and personnel was obtained.

Further updates on the situation will be posted promptly on this
website.

Mark A. Solis
Shreveport, LA USA
Webmaster for John Hutchison
your_neighbor@geocities.com








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   Apr > Apr 5

                     Re: Hoagland on Art Bell - 3-15-00

From: Ron Cecchini <Ron.Cecchini@GD-CS.COM>
Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2000 16:05:57 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 10:04:21 -0400
Subject: Re: Hoagland on Art Bell - 3-15-00


 >Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2000 23:53:19 -0400 (EDT)
 >From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
 >Subject: Re: Hoagland on Art Bell - 3-15-00
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >>& he's finding all kinds of hidden & secret messages in
 >>NASA's Dan Goldin's comments about the future of the
 >>space program, his desire to put humans on Mars, his
 >>desire to have a photo of an extrasolar planet, etc.

 >Naturally... Never mind the fact that if you looked hard enough
 >you would probably find hidden and secret messages in everything
 >Hoagland says.

Oooo... The Hoagland Code!


               M

               A R E

               R

           N O T

             V I S I T I N G

             E A R T H

               N A S A

       R U L E S










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                              Re: Beer & Quotes

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2000 16:14:21 -0400 (EDT)
Fwd Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 10:18:01 -0400
Subject: Re: Beer & Quotes


 >Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2000 20:01:56 -0400
 >From: Todd Lemire <tlemire@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Beer & Quotes
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2000 03:55:55 -0400 (EDT)
 >>From: EBK <updates@sympatico.ca>
 >>To: updates@sympatico.ca
 >>Subject: Beer & Quotes [was: Beer Company to 'Buy' Marfa 'Lites'!]

 >>>Date: Sun, 02 Apr 2000 23:42:55 -0400 (EDT)
 >>>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >>>Subject: Re: Beer Company to 'Buy' Marfa 'Lites'!
 >>>To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >>>>Date: Sun, 02 Apr 2000 08:35:23 -0400
 >>>>From: Todd Lemire <tlemire@home.com>
 >>>>Subject: Beer Company to 'Buy' Marfa 'Lites'!
 >>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>>>Todd Lemire
 >>>>Michigan UFOCENTRAL
 >>>>http://members.home.net/tlemire/UFOCENTRAL.html

 >>>>An expert may be defined as someone who can make you feel stupid
 >>>>for offering your opinion. Fortunately, as physicist Philip
 >>>>Morrison once said, ufology "is a field in which there aren't any
 >>>>experts.

 >>>"Call for Philip Morreeeeeson....." Whilst Mr. Morrison has his
 >>>own opinion in the matter of expert Ufologists, all those
 >>>experts _in_ Ufology would not agree with his sentiments.

 >>>Jim Mortellaro

 >>As a famed Canadian - or at least as famed as only a Canadian
 >>can be - once wrote:

 >>"The function of ufology at this early stage is not to diagnose and
 >>explain but to observe and describe. Since we know so little
 >>about our visitors, any 'expert' who thinks otherwise is in for
 >>trouble." -- John Magor, 'Our UFO Visitors', 1977

 >Errol,

 >Great rebuttal to a signature file that I've intentionally kept
 >for longer than usual, and which has served it's intended purpose
 >well. It has also drawn similar comments from Mr. Friedman.

 >I have the utmost respect for those that post intelligently to
 >this list, but I refrain from those that spout unending lines of
 >historical content from already well documented cases, and are
 >on an ego trip because no one else can spout them as fast as
 >they can (this is directed at no one in particular).

It should be. But you are more of a gentleman than some,
especially Gesundt, who is the most irreverent bastard ever to
undress for Alien inspection. (They throw his genes out the with
their garbage)

 >I believe
 >there is a significant difference between a UFO
 >historian/researcher and an "expert". The only experts that I'm
 >aware of concerning a UFO are the 'pilots/builders' themselves!
 >Although one may consider themselves to be an 'expert' on the
 >study and documentation of their (the UFO, and/or occupants)
 >actions.

Oh, Todd, Todd, Todd... please be Politically Correct. It is
written in the "Heavy History of Ufology" by Gesundt, that there
are many ex-spurts but few experts.

 >There are also, what I believe should be called, "case
 >specialists" within the field of ufology, who are often arguing
 >unendingly with each other over _one_ or _two_ cases. There is
 >entirely too much valuable time wasted on trying to prove
 >oneself as an "historical expert" using the facts of one or two
 >particular cases, while so many other cases remain significantly
 >under investigated _today_. If half of the time that has been
 >devoted by researchers and investigators to the Roswell case for
 >instance, were directed toward other significant sightings,
 >trace effects, tracking down witnesses, etc., we possibly may
 >just have a better understanding of the UFO phenomena as a
 >whole. How much closer are we to solving Roswell today than we
 >were 40 years ago? So we prove they did recover a disk and a few
 >bodies, what are we going to do, march right on over and
 >'demand' they hand the remaining 'evidence', if any, over to the
 >public and then stomp our feet in a temper tantrum while
 >demanding that they tell us the truth... yeah right, it'll never
 >happen, even if we were to prove the Roswell incident as
 >undeniable fact!

The GI tract... (Gesundt Institoot) predicts that you have
opened a can of worms. Wait for the fallout. Boy are you in deep
doodoo.

The GI agrees to a point.

There will come a time when the lies and the misinformation fed
to us by those in power will be exposed.

One by one, the dominoes will fall, creating an effect by a
media feeding frenzy surpassing the feeding of hungry sharks.

They will uncover this and that and when they are done, there
will be very little faith in those who would govern, not that
there is much faith as we speak anyway... and what will result?

More chaos than the sudden announcement of alien life visiting
us, invading our airspace for at least a half century if not
forever, could _ever_ cause. Because not only will the
institutions of religion and faith break down, but of morality,
of prophets, of Messiahs' of old and new and... _and_ extant
governments. What is left, I mean other than the remaining
government emergency Gripple rations?

 >In several more years the experts who are investigating this
 >case will be as old as the ones who witnessed the
 >aforementioned "event" (this is not meant to be an insult by
 >the way), and all devoted parties will soon be fading away.
 >What does this leave us?

I resemble that remark! But the answer is a growing market for
Depends ...

 >We need to focus on the investigators and researchers who are
 >the future, not just developing more historical and documentary
 >"experts" to follow along in these same footsteps! The focus
 >should be on what is happening today, using the cases of the
 >past as a basis of reference for the investigations of today.
 >The historical aspects of a case will come from the
 >investigation all _by_itself_, if it's done properly. We know
 >what _hasn't_ solved past UFO investigations; we need to start
 >working on developing methods of investigation that will bring
 >us closer to solving this phenomena!

Too true. But have you noticed that there are no young people in
this field? Most are wrestling with other issues and not paying
attention to this one. At least this is my opinion. I don't see
any young people interested enough in UFOs or the Abduction
issue to be joining in the research. Why is that? Is this merely
fodder for the mature (read: older) person? And if so, why is
that?

Anybody?

 >All the 'experts' here will be happy to go to their grave with
 >the title of 'UFO Expert' typed within the text of their
 >obituary, but what have you given future investigators to use?

There you go again.... "Ex-Spurts!"

 >Have you only displayed how well you can argue over who is right
 >and who is wrong, or how well you can argue whether this piece
 >of paper or that piece of paper is authentic or not, while
 >citizens across 3 separate states witness trace landings or
 >significant flybys that go virtually uninvestigated?

You are right there. Uh, wait, maybe not. I got it! Definitely
wrong! And I can prove it. Read my next book. Uh, I already got
the one after that planned. The second book will finally have
the truth about the first book in which I may have been wrong.
But the one after that will be entitled 'Bringing It All Back
Home'.

Thank you, Bobby.

 >I'm sure there are many more people subscribing to this list
 >than the few that actually post here. Why don't we hear from
 >these people more often? Because they're intimidated by the so
 >called "experts" on this list. Some of us are here to learn, not
 >to judge a competition of "Who Knows the Most". We are not here
 >to negotiate a pissing contest amongst the "experts"! We want
 >you to pass on your knowledge, guide us, lead us by example!
 >Give us the tools to work with when you are no longer with us.
 >We will remember you when you're gone, you don't have to worry
 >about that.

Here's one reason the old Mort gets his dander up. Which these
days is about the only... ah, never mind.

I get a lot of mail from people who comment on this and that
relative to UpDates.

Especially some of my posts.

Errol, wanna know what many of those have to say?

They say stuff like, "I don't contribute to UpDates, even tho'
I'd like to, because those famous people intimidate me."

And yet, they have a good deal to contribute. It is after all,
_they_ who have had or perceived they've had the experience
in'it? Huh?

But they are afraid to tell it like it is. They are afraid of
being _criticised_ by those who should never criticise.

The experts.

Many of these nice everyday folk have had some jumpin'
experiences. And the similarity to mine are most extraordinary,
as well as the similarity to many others. Replete with the
"Secret Symbols" which researchers are hangin' onto as if their
lives depended on it. Symbols which many of them say are proof
positive of verifiable experiences, because no one but a true
experiencer is supposed to know of them.

Got a news flash folks... most whom I've met right here have the
knowledge of these symbols and more.

What does it say when the very researchers whose mandate it is
to investigate and research intimidate those with the
experiences into not contributing?

 >There are also those here that only post when they have
 >something significant to say or reveal, and it is those that I
 >respect the most. These are the ones who are focused on ufology
 >today and in the future, bringing up the past only when it can
 >be applied to something that is being done to help solve
 >discover the origin of the UFO phenomena today.

Pretty much everything has value. even the horse-hockey. It's
just up to people like me to demonstrate possible horse-hockey
sightings and expose them for what they are. I even got a badge
says I can do that with impunity. But I don need no estinkin'
badge.

 >I'm sure I will suffer the brunt of many 'experts' on this list
 >who happen to disagree with my opinions, and I emphasize here,
 >these are only my opinions. But how many others on this list
 >don't have the courage to voice their opinions for fear of
 >ridicule by these same so called "experts"? These 'experts' may
 >be silencing the voices and ideas of the person who may be on
 >the verge of solving this dilemma. Can you, the 'experts', live
 >with such a consequence of your actions and words? This will be
 >the last message, for the time being that this particular quote
 >will be seen at the bottom of. It has proven the point that it
 >was intended to prove, and I found that those who generally
 >disagree with the quote are those that are truly 'experts' in
 >the field of ufology. > >Humbly and Gratefully Stupid, >Todd
Lemire

This remark as well, I resemble. I too, am stupid to a fault.
Either that, Todd, or the rest of them are nuttier than they
think I am. Could be!

 >An expert may be defined as someone who can make you feel stupid
 >for offering your opinion. Fortunately, as physicist Philip
 >Morrison once said, ufology "is a field in which there aren't any
 >experts.

Amen, amen I say unto you. But for the last time.....
_Ex-Spurts_!

Jim Mortellaro








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               Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947

From: Ron Cecchini <Ron.Cecchini@GD-CS.COM>
Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2000 16:16:29 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 10:21:43 -0400
Subject: Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947


 >Date: Sat, 01 Apr 2000 08:08:51 -0400
 >From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
 >Subject: Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 14:26:35 -0800
 >>From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman@psln.com>
 >>Subject: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>An MP's Story

 >I have difficulties with many aspects of this story.

<snip>

 >I have a copy of the Base Yearbook and would be happy to check
 >to see whether this guy was in it.

I think I speak for a lot of people when I say that I would
appreciate hearing the update/followup to this story as the
information comes in.

Thank you very much.










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   Apr > Apr 5

                     [canufo] Recent Yukon UFO Sighting

From: Martin Jasek <mjjasek@yknet.yk.ca>
Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2000 22:00:58 -0600
Fwd Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 10:32:49 -0400
Subject: [canufo] Recent Yukon UFO Sighting


30-March-2000, Little Fox Lake, Yukon, Canada: (5:00am)

A man, a woman and a young boy (who was a sleep) were travelling
along the Klondike Highway from Whitehorse to the Village of
Pelly Crossing, Yukon.

The sky was clear with a glow of predawn blue.

They were nearing the end of Little Fox Lake and came around a
sharp right-hand bend near the base of a mountain. Upon coming
out from the bend they could not believe their eyes!

To the right and about 300 ft away was a 30 to 40ft diameter
saucer, hovering about 200 ft off the ground!

They observed it to be stationary for 4 to 5 seconds as they
were travelling along the highway and than it shot across
horizontally in front of their vehicle at an "incredible speed"
and stopped instantly on the left side of the road.

"Nothing can move that fast", "in the blink of an eye" the
witnesses described.

It remained motionless for only another split second and shot
off even faster in a different direction (basically performing a
90-degree turn and shooting off behind them.

One witness thought it went right into the side of a mountain
while the other thought it followed the mountainous skyline.

"Come on, floor it, floor it!" shouted the passenger to the
driver.

They eventually pulled over about 20 minutes later and both were
shaking. "We were more scared than excited, I think if it wasn't
so close it would not have been that scary", "It's like we
caught it by surprise when we came around the corner", "it was
so advanced", "I'll never be the same" were some of the comments
by the witnesses.

The witnesses got a good look at the saucer.

It was a classic disc shape with a dome on top. The dome had two
curved windows or lights from which a beautiful ocean blue or
aqua colored light was shining.

The surface of the craft was difficult to describe.

Some of the words the witnesses used were "mirror, silver,
translucent, shiny, glassy, reflecting the color of the sky".

It was as though the UFO was trying to "camouflage against the
background sky color". "Had it been pitch black out I don't
think we would have seen the body of the craft, just the windows
or lights" the woman remarked.

As the UFO streaked in front of their vehicle, the car
headlights dimmed and their tape deck stopped playing.

They both wanted to check the time of their sighting.

However, the woman's battery-operated analog watch stopped (at
5:00am) and the man's digital watch got stuck in "chrono mode"
and wouldn't reset.

A few miles down the road the woman tapped the face of her watch
and it started working again. The man fiddled around pushing
buttons on his digital watch and it started working as well, the
time indicated was 5:12 am.

They checked the tape deck and by all indications, John Fogerty
should have been playing away. The tape hadn't run out, the
volume was on, and the lights on the cassette window indicated
that the power was on.

Other than the initial power drain, no additional problems were
noted with the truck.

The man figured that they managed to get the tape deck and
watches functioning properly after they traveled a couple of
miles past the UFO sighting location.

The woman figured that about 5 minutes had elapsed when they
managed to get their watches functioning and about 10 minutes
until the tape deck started to work.

Although the witnesses were travelling in a vehicle, no noise
was heard emanating from the UFO.

To help visualize the lighting conditions an astronomical
simulation program was used to determine that the sun was 11
degrees below the horizon during the sighting.

It is difficult to put this in perspective in terms of the
amount of time before sunrise as the sunrise rate varies
significantly with latitude and season.

For the location and date in question, it was about 1 hour and
35 minutes before sunrise.

For different latitudes similar lighting conditions can be found
at the following times before sunrise or after sunset:

For March 30:
Equator (0 deg lat.): 42 minutes
Los Angeles (34 deg lat.): 55 minutes
Vancouver (49 deg lat.): 1 hour 05 minutes
Little Fox Lake (61.5 deg lat.): 1 hour and 35 minutes

For June 30:
Equator (0 deg lat.): 45 minutes
Los Angeles (34 deg lat.): 1 hour 05 minutes
Vancouver (49 deg lat.): 1 hour 40 minutes
Little Fox Lake (61.5 deg lat.): does not get dark enough

Submitted by:

Martin Jasek
UFO*BC, Yukon Representative
www.ufobc.org
martin@ufobc.org








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                              Note from Brazil

From: Brian Cuthbertson <brianc@fc.net>
Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 09:40:17 -0500 (CDT)
Fwd Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 11:21:04 -0400
Subject: Note from Brazil


EBK,

I'm forwarding the following email note I received from Brazil.
Feel free to post it to the UpDates list if you feel it
appropriate.

-Brian C.

[As with _everything_ that comes through this list, discretion
  needs be exercised --ebk]

__________________________

  From abp1@uol.com.br Tue Apr 4 23:23:15 2000
To: Revista Planeta <planeta3@zaz.com.br>
Subject: Very Important! Please Read
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 00:24:56 -0300


Dear UFO Community,

First, let me introduce myself. My name is Michael Wysmierski
and I have been involved in ufology (professionally) for about 6
years. And during this time, I published a newsletter (The
Brazilian UFO Report) for 3 years, contributed UFO articles,
reports/research to several publications (Timothy Good has used
my work in his book 'Alien Base') and internet sites, and have
interviewed dozens of people about their UFO encounter.

Oh! Before I forget. I have also had several problems due to my
UFO research. Let's take a look a some:

- During the Varginha case, while living in Brazil and
publishing material about it in English, my telephone was
tapped/bugged along with several other ufologists in Brazil who
were involved in the Varginha case.

- While trying to put on a UFO congress in the city of Londrina
(Brazil) after sending out hundreds of invitations with my
telephone number on it, a man "from the phone company" appeared
at my door a few days later, totally uninvited, and told me that
he was there to change my phone and phone number and I had no
choice in the matter. Just like that!

- When I created the World UFO Report (WUFOR) web site, it
mysteriously disappeared for 48 hrs. when I put some photographs
(provided by Richard Sauder) of underground facilities in the
USA. A few days later, a very, very reliable source sent me
about 16 pages of US military installations (three locations -
California, Florida and Ohio) that had been keeping an eye on my
site. Was it mere coincidence between my site disappearing
and this report I received? I don't think so. Especially since
WUFOR was the _only_ site to disappear from my provider. (Aren't
those government hackers amazing?)

- Hey! What about the time a US government worker contacted me
and tried to persuade me to lose interest in my UFO research?
That was very, very interesting and spooky.

And the list goes on, and on and on and on and.....

Take today for example.

My internet site was cancelled today by my provider because
someone claimed I _spammed_ them (sent out unsolicited email to
them). And I thought all those people on my email list were
interested in my new UFO publication! Well, apparently not.
Somebody does not like the fact that I am once again publishing
UFO material about Brazil. (Hmmmm! I guess I must be doing
something right!).

So, what's the moral of this email? It's very simple.
Suppression of UFO information is alive and well. Oh yeah!
And if you get too close to the truth, you get to play games
with those trying to suppress you and maybe even lose some money
on your research. (Maybe I'm a masochist?) Isn't it a
wonderful 'Free' world we're living in?

I have temporarily moved my site (Liquid Press) to
<www8.50megs.com/liquidpress>. But, if you want to see my new
publication (Close Encounters of the Brazilian Kind - CE-BK) for
free, just send me your name and address and $5 US dollars
shipping and handling. Postage isn't cheap from Brazil to the
rest of the world. Things are expensive here.

FYI: The minimum salary in Brazil in about $80 US dollars a
month, but cars, electronic items, etc., cost 2 to 3 times as
much as they do in the United States. Very strange, but
absolutely true. And by the way, I'm just trying to cover costs
so that CE-BK will continue to be published.)

Send your request for CE-BK (a high quality product) to:

Michael Wysmierski
Rua Fernando de Noronha
741/604 86020-300
Londrina, PR Brazil

If you care about UFO information in Brazil staying alive and
coming from an independent source (me), support my work to keep
CE-BK alive and out there in the public eye. Don't let UFO
information be surpressed. Please pass this message on to others
and othet UFO mailing lists if you think it's valuable.

Thanks for your time and support.

All the best and never surpressed,

Michael Wysmierski
Londrina,
Brazil








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               Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947

From: Chris Kelly <MIBAREA51@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 13:17:43 -0400 (EDT)
Fwd Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 21:46:02 -0400
Subject: Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947


 >Date: Sat, 01 Apr 2000 08:08:51 -0400
 >From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
 >Subject: Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 14:26:35 -0800
 >>From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman@psln.com>
 >>Subject: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>An MP's Story

 >I have difficulties with many aspects of this story.

  <snip>

 >I have a copy of the Base Yearbook and would be happy to check
 >to see whether this guy was in it.

Ed,

Can we get more information from your source, some details about
the event, etc. I have been interested in this since seeing it
on Unsolved Mysteries years ago. I think there is more here than
meets the eye.

Thanks,

Chris Kelly








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               Re: A&E's Investigative Reports Tonight - UFOs

From: Ron Cecchini <Ron.Cecchini@GD-CS.COM>
Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 14:53:02 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 21:48:18 -0400
Subject: Re: A&E's Investigative Reports Tonight - UFOs


Wed, 4/5, A&E, 9pm & 1am

INVESTIGATIVE REPORTS

Bill Kurtis interviews UFO believers & skeptics in Mexico &
Brazil. Included is a look at how UFO photos can be created on a
computer.











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   Apr > Apr 6

                      UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 5, Number 14

From: John Hayes <webmaster@ufoinfo.com>
Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2000 11:10:39 +0100
Fwd Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2000 13:53:57 -0400
Subject: UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 5, Number 14


      UFO ROUNDUP
Volume 5, Number 14
April 6, 2000
Editor: Joseph Trainor

Masinaigan@aol.com

http://ufoinfo.com/roundup/


UGANDA MASSACRE TOPS
1978 JONESTOWN CASE

      Authorities in Uganda last week said the death
toll from the Kanungu massacre had hit 924, exceeding
that of the Jonestown mass murders of 1978.
      "The death toll in the doomsday sect massacre was
raised Friday (March 31, 2000) to 924, bypassing the 1978
Jonestown tragedy in Guyana as the worst modern-day
cult-related mass killing."
      "Ugandan authorities promised to apprehend the
perpetrators of the stabbings, stranglings and burnings
but investigators showed no signs of being able to track
down sect leaders or even of being able to confirm which--
if any--survived."
      "No cult members appear to have survived, though the
police believe that some of the leaders, including Joseph
Kibweteere, 64, a school administrator, and Credonia
Mwerinde, 48, who claimed direct contact with the Virgin
Mary--may yet be alive."
      Authorities have issued warrants for the areests of
Kibweteere, Mwerinde and four members of Mwerinde's
family, who were alleged to be members of "The Twelve
Apostles," the ruling council of the Movement for the
Restoration of God's Ten Commandments.
     On Tuesday afternoon, March 28, 2000, "while workers
were counting 74 more bodies on a hilltop" in Rugazi,
a village in southwestern Uganda, Ugandan homicide
detective Terense Kinyera searched the vacant home of
a sect leader in Rugazi.
      Kinyera "found himself casting a suspicious eye on what
appeared to be recently-poured concrete in a closet of the
main house."
      "Men with heavy iron bars were summoned and they
punched a hole in the concrete.  Kinyera's suspicion was
confirmed.  The first dessicated corpse was pulled out
an hour later.  By the time the sun settled onto the
glimmering surface of nearby Lake Edward, 28 more
bodies--most of them children--had been laid on the lawn
of the home of an excommunicated Catholic priest
identified as a cult member.  Workers said they saw at
least as many waiting to be recovered."
      "Like those unearthed at other sites," many of the
dead in Rugazi "appeared to have been strangled, one
apparently by a banana leaf.  Others bore stab wounds.
A pathologist gathered tissue samples to test for
poison."
      "'We're looking at murder,' said Godfrey Bangirana,
an assistant police commissioner, pausing on the short
stroll from one pile of corpses to the other on a hilltop
thick with the smell of death.  'You cannot kill all of
these human beings alone.  This was an organized
crime, and an organized crime cannot be committed
by one person.  It has to be a group.'"
      A total of 155 dead were discovered in Rugazi.
      "At the moment, the police are working on the theory
that the cult members may have been poisoned,
becuse most of the bodies show no sign of violence.
There was also apparently little struggle, which may
indicate that some cult members did go willingly
to their deaths."
      "In Uganda, incredibly, the deaths seemed to
have involved hundreds of people and to have taken
place over weeks or perhaps months--without any
hint to the outside world."
      Meanwhile, mysteries continue to surround some
aspects of the case.  On Saturday, April 1, 2000,
Ugandan authorities revised upward the number of
victims killed at the March 17th fire at the sect's
church in Kanungu, a market town 320 kilometers
(200 miles) southwest of Kampala, the national
capital.
      The cause of the fire remains unknown.  However,
"the cult had planned a huge celebration on March 15,"
to inaugurate a new chapel built over the graves of
Mwerinde's parents, "and one priest from the cult
reportedly bought a strange kind of party favor:
50 liters of sulfuric acid, which some investigators
say may have helped fuel the fire..."
      According to Ugandan police spokesman Assuman
Mugenyi, "A vehicle usually found at the Kanungu
compound was not there after the blaze, Mugenyi said.
It was, however, spotted on the night of the (March) 17th
at the second compound near Rukungiri, when someone
tried to set its buildings alight."
      Also revealed last week was the fact that some
of the earlier reburied victims were disinterred because
the original pathologist reportedly only spent "two minutes
examining each body."
      "Even the search for more victims faltered Friday
(March 31) with investigators putting off indefinitely plans
to dig at a fifth sect compound.  Police said they would
wait until they had proper equipment for the site, located
in a remote mountain jungle populated by rebels."
      Ugandan authorities seem satisfied with the
explanation that sect leaders committed the murders.
"Ugandan President Yoweri Museveni has called the
killings 'mass murder by these priests for monetary
gain.'"  (See the Duluth, Minn. News-Tribune for
March 29, 2000, "Ugandan deaths may be murder,"
page 4A; and April 2, 2000, "Money may be motive in
Ugandan deaths."  Also the Minneapolis Star-Tribune
for April 1, 2000, "Uganda cult toll hits 924, page 1A.)
(Editor's Comment:  It was mass murder, all right,
but I'm not so sure it was committed by only six people.
Nerve gas could explain the lack of injuries on the
remains.  An air-delivered or planted napalm bomb could
have destroyed the church.  Also, who owned the
second vehicle?  According to news reports, Kibweteere
was the only member who owned a car.  This looks like
the biggest coverup since the Heaven's Gate massacre
in March 1997.)

MWERINDE FOUNDED UGANDA
SECT AFTER A VISIT FROM THE
VIRGIN MARY IN AUGUST 1988

      The guiding light behind the Movement for the
Restoration of God's Ten Commandments was the
seeress Credonia Mwerinde, 48, who was born and
raised in Kanungu.
      During the early 1980s, Mwerinde moved in with
her lover, Eric Mazima, and "ran a shop in Kanungu that
sold banana beer and a fiery local liquor."
      "News accounts have referred to her as a prostitute
but residents say that, although she was promiscuous,
she was not paid for sex."
      "On August 24, 1988, Mwerinde claimed to have had
a vision of the Virgin Mary in a cave near the Ugandan
village of Ngakishenyi."
(Editor's Comment: Shades of Bernadette Soubirous
and the Marian apparition at Lourdes on February 11, 1858.)
      One week after the apparition, Mwerinde walked out
on her live-in lover.  "Mazima challenged her carefully-
cultivated image as a religious devotee, saying she
claimed her visions and turned to religion only after the
couple's joint business went bankrupt."
      During a second visitation, the Virgin Mary reportedly
told Mwerinde to go "to Nyamitanga and find a man
called 'Kibwetere.'"
      Born in 1936, Kibweteere was a minor official in
Uganda's Ministry of Education.  He had a wife, Therese,
and a son, Juvenal Mugambwa.  He was also very much
interested in Marian apparitions and read everything he
could lay hands on about the incidents at La Salette,
Lourdes and Fatima.
      "Four months after leaving her (common-law) husband,
Mwerinde met Kibweteere in Nyamitanga, where he said
he and his wife had gone to hear her testify about her
visions."
      "He took Mwerinde into his home" in Kanungu "which
served as the cult's compound for three years."  A visit
from the Virgin Mary soon followed, in which the former
Miriam bat-Joachim appointed him a bishop.  Thereafter,
Kibweteere took to calling himself "The Prophet" and
"wearing a bishop's ring and vestments.  He never
spoke to his family again."
      In 1992, the sect recruited a new leader.  He was
Dominic Kataribabo.  Born in Uganda in 1967,
Kataribabo "studied for a doctorate in theology at a
Los Angeles-area seminary in the mid-1980s."
(Editor's Comment:  Funny how all these seers sooner
or later go to L.A.)
      Kataribabo "got into trouble" in 1990 "with his
diocese in Uganda for how he used donations collected
in Los Angeles and for his interest in Mwerinde and her
talk of visions."
      "Kataribabo, 32, became a leader in the cult soon after
he was excommunicated in the early 1990s.  He taught
seminars at the church compound in Kanungu about the
cult's prophecies on righteous living and the end of the
world."
      "His family told police that Kataribabo had been digging
a pit to install a refrigerator in his house.  Police found
81 bodies and 74 more in a sugar cane field outside."
      "Police believe Kataribabo died in the church fire, citing
as evidence a clerical collar found on one of the bodies."
(Editor's Comment:  It might be a good idea to get a
DNA sample from one of the cadaver's internal organs
and compare it to DNA samples taken from Kataribabo's
relatives.  This guy might have faked his death by putting
a collar on a ringer and then blowing him away.)
(See the Duluth News-Tribune for March 31, 2000,
"Twisted visionary led cult, relatives say," page 4A.
Also the Minneapolis, Minn. Star-Tribune for April 1,
2000, "The Cult's Leaders," page A17.)
(Editor's Note: Miriam's first apparition took place
in Neocaesarea (Latin for New Ceaser City) in the
Roman Empire's Pontus province in 238 A.D., about
189 years after her disappearance from Jerusalem.)

UFO HIJACKS CAR IN ULSTER:
VICTIM REPORTS SIX HOURS
OF "MISSING TIME"

      An Ulster man claims that his car was lifted off the
ground by a UFO, and he experienced six hours of
"missing time" as a result.
      On Thursday, March 23, 2000, John H., employed
at a factory in West Belfast, County Antrim, Northern
Ireland, "was on my way home from work after a long
and tiring shift which had lasted 24 hours.  So, as you
can imagine, I wanted to go home to my wife and
children and sleep for a few hours."
      "But," John reported, "as I was on my way home,
I pulled into a petrol (gasoline in the USA--J.T.) station
to fill up the tank and noticed to my right a large light
in the sky.  At first I thought maybe it was the moon.
But on looking again, it didn't take on the shape of the
moon.  Indeed, it took on the shape of an egg."
      "I was amazed at what I was looking at.  At first
I thought to myself, Go and get someone to look at this
thing...But, as the thought crossed my mind, something
told me to get in the car and drive away from the filling
station.  Without paying for the petrol or anything!"
      "I got into the car and drove away.  The thing was
following me.  I live on the Falls Road in West Belfast,
but I was driving the road that leads down to Dublin.
I didn't want to go to Dublin!  I wanted to go home to my
wife and babies.  I couldn't understand why I was driving
down this road."
      "While I was driving, I noticed the object again.  It was
starting to scare me very much indeed.  So much, in fact,
I started to scream.  Without knowing why, I stopped the
car on a hillside road that leads to a farming area
northbound on the (motorway) M-3.  The car, it seemed,
was lifting.  I felt it.  But for some reason, I was not
sure that it was.  It was as though someone was
screwing with my brain.  Telling me what to think."
      "All I can remember after this was driving on
the Whiterock/Donegal Road and back to my house
on the Falls Road.  The funny thing about it is, on my
way home from work, it takes five minutes to get to
my home from the filling station.  But it was 2:30 a.m.
before I got home."
      "I have about six hours of my life gone, and I can't
account for it.  I want to know what is going on, and
I have to know it now."
      The case is currently being investigated by Conor
McLaughlin of the Belfast UFO Society.  (Many thanks
to the witness and to Conor McLaughlin for this report.)

MYSTERY BOOMS STARTLE
PEOPLE IN NORTHERN ITALY

      On Thursday, March 23, 2000, at 10:15 p.m., a
merchant in Val di Mara, a town in La Spezia province
in Italy "saw a strange glow in the sky and then
observed a luminous body heading towards Earth."
The object "had a small white tail, and it was
accompanied by two loud explosions."
      "A short while earlier, two young lovers saw a
faint trail in the sky" near Val di Mara "and heard
a very loud explosion."
      According to Italy's Centro Italiano di Studi
Ufologici (CISU), mystery booms were heard that
evening in Lecco, a city on Lago (Lake) Como
80 kilometers (50 miles) north of Milano (Milan);
in Trezzo sull'Adda, near Milano; in the city of
Firenze (Florence) and in several villages in the
provinces of Bologna and Savona.
      Italian astronomers said it "was 'probably' a
meteoric phenomenon."  (Grazie a Edoardo Russo,
Roberto Labanti, Michele Maroni e Frederico
Rosati per questi rapportti.)

GLOWING RED UFO SEEN
OVER SUDBURY, ONTARIO

      On Thursday, March 16, 2000, at ufologist
Michel Deschamps was in the Four Corners area
of Sudbury, Ontario, Canada (population 93,000)
when he spotted an unusually bright light in the sky.
      "At around 9:45 p.m.," Deschamps reported, "my
two friends, Brian and Earl, and I were coming back
from the Four Corners area of Sudbury when I looked
out the right rear passenger-side window and noticed
a light up in the eastern sky.  It was pinkish red in
color and pulsated at the same rate as those found on
communication towers located around the city.  But
unlike the tower lights, it would not completely go off."
      "As we went past the General Hospital, I began
looking at the sky and could no longer see the light,
which was odd as it was at a fair height (altitude--J.T.)
and could have been easily noticeable from Paris Street."
      "I later called my colleague Todd to tell him about
it," Deschamps added, "and he said he'd check for
flights of the Air Ambulance and see if there were any
communication towers in the area.  He called back a
few days later and said he couldn't find out if the
(medevac) helicopter had flown that night, but he did
say there was a tower at the far end of Lake Ramsey."
      A week later, on Thursday, March 23, 2000, he was
driving with two other friends, Eric and Ben, and "took
the opportunity to look over to the east and did notice a
tower in the distance.  But the light was very small and
very low on the horizon."
      On Sunday, March 26, 2000, at 8:30 p.m., Deschamps
and his friend Todd were standing on the sidewalk, outside
Descahmps's home, conversing, when "I happened to look
up in the sky, at approximately 90 degrees (directly
overhead--J.T.) and spotted another strange light in the
sky.  I saw what looked like a single bright flash, then
barely noticed a second one from the corner of my eye."
      "As Todd looked on, I told him I was going upstairs
to get my binoculars.  When I came down, he said he
had seen two more flashes and told me to point my
binoculars in the direction of the Big Dipper."
(Editor's Note:  Over the years, UFO Roundup has
printed several accounts of witnesses seeing UFOs
flee in the direction of the Big Dipper, also known
as the constellation Ursa Major.)
      "Todd said the flashes seemed to be heading
that way in a straight line."
      "As we both looked up, a man in a pickup truck
stopped and asked what we were looking at...Todd
didn't want to say anything, but I told him what we
saw and he stood there for a few minutes before
driving off.  Suggested we call the paper to report
this because he reads the paper a lot and would
like to read about it."
      The pair kept watch for several minutes more
but the mysterious flashes did not reappear.
      Sudbury is on Provincial Highway 17 approximately
260miles (416 kilometers) north of Toronto.  (Many
thanks to Michael Deschamps for this report.)

BRIGHT UFO SIGHTED IN
BLOOMINGTON, INDIANA

      On Tuesday, March 28, 2000, at 11:10 p.m.,
Peter S. was outside his home in Bloomington,
Indiana (population 60,700), a city on Indiana
Highway 37 approximately 50 miles (80 kilometers)
southwest of Indianapolis, when he saw a motionless
bright light in the sky.
      "It looked like a bright star in the northwest sky
low on the horizon," Peter reported, "It didn't move
until a minute or two after I saw it.  It looked like it
was going straight up for a bit and then it was apparent
that it was coming straight in my direction (i.e. to the
southeast--J.T.)  It flew straight over my head."
      "While it was straight over my head, it was the same
brightness and size as it was in the distance.  It looked
like a moving star.  There was only the one solid light,
no blinking lights, no red or green lights. I'm really sure
it wasn't a plane.  I have no idea what it was."  (Email
Form Report.)

FAST-MOVING DAYLIGHT DISC
SEEN IN UPSTATE NEW YORK

      On Tuesday, March 21, 2000, at 2:47 p.m.,
Joseph B. was outdoors in the small town of
Ballston Spa, New York (population 5,000) when he
noticed a strange silvery gleam in the sky.
      "The UFO was moving from south to north,
heading for the Lake Champlain area," he reported,
"It was a large circular flying disk.  Very shiny.
I estimate that it was about 7 meter (23 feet) high
and 14 meters (46 feet) wide.  It was really moving!"
      Ballston Spa is on Route 50 approximately
14 miles (22 kilometers) northeast of Schenectady,
New York.  (Email Form Report)

ARCHAEOLOGISTS FIND A
BURIED PYRAMID IN EGYPT

      A group of French archaeologists have discovered
the remnants of a pyramid dating all the way back to
2,000 B.C.
      The discovery was announced last week at the
Worldwide Conference on Egyptology now going on
in Cairo.
      Egyptian workers "employed by Jean Leclant, a
French Egyptologist, on Saturday, March 25, 2000,
discovered the foundations of a pyramid belonging
to the wife of Pharoah Pepi in Saqqara, near the
royal cemetery, located about 32 kilometers
(20 miles) south of Cairo."
      "Leclant's team has pinpointed the burial chamber
of Queen Ankh-sn-Pepi and also excavated a large
stone upon which are written several texts and
special prayers for the protection of the dead."
      "'Who knows what they'll find inside?' said Gabala
Ali Gabala, a director of the Supreme Council for
Egyptian Antiquities."
       The pyramid appears to be at least 4,000
years old.
      "The team continues work on the excavation,
one of the best preserved," and the project "is
expected to end in May," 2000.  (Muto obrigado
ao Visitantes Cosmias do Brasil para esa historia.
(Editor's Comment:  Maybe one of our UFO Roundup
correspondents in Egypt can send us a translation
of Queen Ankh-sn-Pepi's funeral stone.  It would be
nice to know which wizard wrote it.  Maybe there's a
mentuion of Atlantis or at least directions to the
long-lost Obelisk of Retenu.)

ELVIS RUNS FOR MAYOR
IN WISCONSIN

      Voters were surprised and amused Tuesday,
April 4, 2000 when the name of Elvis Aron Presley
turned up on the municipal ballot in Phillips,
Wisconsin.
      "If Jesse Ventura can succeed in politics, why
not an Elvis impersonator who has legally changed his
name to Elvis Aron Presley in honor of the late
rock 'n' roll king?"
      "Presley, who moved to this Price County
community," Phillips, Wisconsin (population 1,600)
two years ago from West Dundee, Illinois
(population 3,800) says he identifies with Ventura,
the former pro wrestler now serving as Minnesota's
governor."
      "'If the people of that state can put a wrestler in
office, I don't see what's wrong with the people of
Wisconsin electing an Elvis impersonator,' said
Presley, proprietor of Bloom's Tavern, a 108-tear-old
drinking establishment listed on the National Register
of Historic Places."
      "'Ventura and I have a lot in common,' Presley said,
'He's a wrestler, and I'm a performer.  We're both political
outsiders.'"
      "Voters in this community of 1,600 people will choose
between Presley and Keith Corcilius."
      "Corcilius said his opponent lacks experience in
government."
      "Presley, 50, said he wants to be taken seriously
but he admits some voters might think he's just a
rebel without a cause."  (See the Chicago-Tribune
for April 3, 2000, "Elvis alive and running  for mayor
in Wisconsin," page 4.)

from the UFO Files...

1944: UFO GOES SUPERSONIC
           OVER TARAWA

      Three years before Roswell, during April of 1944,
there was a flurry of UFO sightings in both the USA
and on different World War Ii battlefields around the
globe.
      One such battlefield was Tarawa, a small island
atoll in the central Pacific Ocean.  This lonely outpost
of Japan's Pacific empire was invaded by an Allied task
force on November 20, 1943.  After eight days of heavy
fighting, the U.S. Marine Corps took possession of
the island.
      Five months after the battle, the U,S. Navy had set up
an early warning detection system in the central Pacific.
Radar stations on Tarawa, manned by Navy personnel,
kept watch for any signs of Japanese activity.
      One day in April 1944, Navy Lieutenant (j.g.)
Matthew P. Dillingham took over as OD (Officer of the
Deck--J.T.) at the Argus 16 Combat Intelligence Center
(CIC) on Tarawa.  There were three radar sets in the
Argus 16 command center.
      As Lt. Dillingham was doing his paperwork for
the captain, he heard one of the sailors remark,
"Sir, I've got a bogey."
      Hurrying to the radar set, the lieutenant asked,
"What have you got?"
      "Single plane, sir.  Coming in from the north.
And she's coming in hot."
      As Lt. Dillingham noted in his letter to UFO
investigator Major Donald E. Keyhoe, Argus 16
"suddenly picked up a 'bogey'...the blip of an
unknown object...moving swiftly from north to
south.  The speed was calculated at approximately
700 miles per hour (1,120 kilometers per hour--J.T.)--
far greater than any aircraft then known to exist."
      Immediately Lt. Dillingham picked up the
telephone and called "the old man."  Within a
minute, the captain, his executive officer and the
intelligence officer were in the control room.  Lt.
Dillingham repeated the story of what had happened.
      Major Keyhoe wrote, "The radar sets were in
excellent condition, and the operators, Dillingham
emphasizes, were all expert plotters.  Even so, some
incredulous Navy officers first called it poor calibration."
      "But not long after this, there was a second
mysterious 'bogey,' and again Navy plotters computed
the speed at 700 miles per hour."
      "When this happened once more, Dillingham and
his group knew there was no error."
      "There seemed only two possible answers: either
this was a completely solid object under guidance.
Or, by some miracle, the Japanese had jumped far
ahead (of the USA) and and produced a supersonic
plane."
(Editor's Comment: Wouldn't you just love to read
the Estimate of the Situation the Pacific commander,
Admiral Chester W. Nimitz, must have sent to General
George C. Marshall, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff,
about this "supersonic Japanese airplane?")
      When the war ended in 1945, U.S. Navy officers
debriefed the admirals of the Imperial Japanese Navy.
They specifically asked about the "supersonic plane"
that had overflown Tarawa in April 1944.
      The Japanese admirals had no idea what they
were talking about.
      The sound barrier was finally broken in August 1947
by an experimental rocket plane, the Bell X-1, also known
as the Glamorous Glennis, flown by Chuck Yeager.
      But the "Tarawa mystery" remained an enigma
until the big Roswell UFO flap in July 1947.  (See the
book Mysteries of the Skies: UFOs in Perspective by
Gordon I.R. Lore Jr. and Harold H. Deneault Jr.,
Prentice-Hall Inc., New York, N.Y., 1968,
pages 126 and 127.)
(Editor's Note: The battle of Tarawa, which raged
from November 20 to November 28 in 1943, claimed
the lives of 980 U.S. Marines and 22 U.S. Navy sailors.
No, some of us have not forgotten.)

Today's Quote: Comes from USA Vice President
Albert Gore--"A zebra cannot change its spots."
(Editor's Comment: Boy, it's a good thing Al Gore
isn't running for president of South Africa.)

      Join us next week for more UFO and paranormal
news from around the planet Earth, brought to you
by "the paper that goes home--UFO Roundup."
See you in seven days!

UFO ROUNDUP: Copyright 2000 by Masinaigan
Productions, all rights reserved.  Readers may post
news items from UFO Roundup on their websites
or in newsgroups provided that they credit the
newsletter and its editor by name and list the date
of issue in which the item first appeared.

.
     .

*********************************************************
IMPORTANT Please Read:
======================

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deaths are children under 5. By visiting the Hunger Site
and clicking on a button you can donate free food.

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the food is paid for by sponsors.

Do this once a day (no more) and help make a difference!
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*********************************************************

E-Mail Reports to: Joseph Trainor <Masinaigan@aol.com>
or use the Sighting Report Form at:

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Website comments: John Hayes <webmaster@ufoinfo.com>

UFOINFO: http://ufoinfo.com

Official Archives of the UK UFO Network Bulletin,
AUFORN Australian UFO Reports and Experiences,
UFO + PSI Magazine also available, plus archives of
Filer's Files.








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   Apr > Apr 6

                Re: Discovering the Real Story of the Apollo

From: Wendy Connors <ProjectSign@email.msn.com>
Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 10:03:56 -0600
Fwd Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2000 13:56:43 -0400
Subject: Re: Discovering the Real Story of the Apollo


 >From: Steven L. Wilson <Ndunlks@aol.com>
 >Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2000 03:13:53 -0400 (EDT)
 >Fwd Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2000 07:50:26 -0400
 >Subject: Discovering the Real Story of the Apollo Journey

 >Source: ABC News

 >http://www.abcnews.go.com/onair/CloserLook/wnt_000331_CL_apollo_feature.html

 >Man on the Moon

 >Discovering the Real Story of the Apollo Journey

 >By Peter Jennings

<snip>

How sad for humanity that all those who walked on the moon will
be gone when, if ever, a representative from earth once again
sets foot on another world. The torch to be passed to new
generations was instead relegated to dusty shelves.

Throughout human history the explorers always kept going in
search of what was beyond. What a glorious sight it would have
been to see the old explorer and the new meet in a handshake of
success, mutual respect and shared knowledge that the journey
begun would never end.

The saddest truth is that mankind has allowed machines to do the
exploring at the expense of enrichment to the collective human
spirit.

Wendy Connors
Project SIGN Research Center










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               Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947

From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman@psln.com>
Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2000 08:51:46 -0800
Fwd Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2000 16:15:43 -0400
Subject: Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947


 >Can we get more information from your source, some details about
 >the event, etc. I have been interested in this since seeing it
 >on Unsolved Mysteries years ago. I think there is more here than
 >meets the eye.

Chris and All,

On the surface this is a simple and direct story. The MP was on
his regular duty shift, July 3rd, when he and a few other MPs
were ordered into jeeps and driven to the crash site. He doesn't
know why he was picked other than he was on duty. He and others
guarded the craft until it was loaded onto a flatbed truck and
sent back to the base at Roswell (about three hours). There were
flood lights and two tents set up so other Army personnel had
been there for some time, the MP doesn't know how long. There
were soldiers from other units at the site but they did not talk
with one another.

The main problem is establishing whether the MP was there and
saw what he says he saw. As far as I know, aside from the
cameraman, we have no other first hand account of what happened
at the site during this time (while the craft was being loaded).
So the MP is a _very_ important witness. He does not want to be
identified at this time but he has proved to me that he was
there. I believe him and the story, as improbable as it may
sound.

There are other facts that he reported that I have not yet
revealed. I'd like folks to treat this witness with respect. The
MP will answer questions, if he knows the answers. Send your
questions to the list, I'll send them on to him and he'll
respond. Remember it was over fifty years ago. He does know what
make and color car Col Blanchard drove...a black ford 1945-46.

And yes the DOD did question the MP. And yes it wasn't an
official organization in July since the National security Act
wasn't signed until Sept.17, of 1947. But the seals on the AA
film cans were DOD, so we have evidence that the DOD was active
although not yet "official".

Ed








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               Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947

From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2000 21:02:29 -0400 (EDT)
Fwd Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2000 21:27:21 -0400
Subject: Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947


 >Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2000 08:51:46 -0800
 >From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman@psln.com>
 >Subject: Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

<snip>

 >And yes the DOD did question the MP. And yes it wasn't an
 >official organization in July since the National security Act
 >wasn't signed until Sept.17, of 1947. But the seals on the AA
 >film cans were DOD, so we have evidence that the DOD was active
 >although not yet "official".


Ed,

Using the AA film cans as proof of DOD seals is like holding up
the Piltdown man as proof of the missing link.

The likely and more plausable story is that if the MP's account
is true and independently verifable is that depending on when he
got out of the service, he would have likely referred to DOD as
DOD because thats what its been for the last 53 years and likely
was the "official organization" when he got out of the service.

Cheers, Robert








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               Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947

From: Roger Annette Evans <raka@swbell.net>
Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2000 21:33:30 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2000 08:28:26 -0400
Subject: Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947


 >From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman@psln.com>
 >Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2000 08:51:46 -0800
 >Fwd Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2000 16:15:43 -0400
 >Subject: Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947


Previously, Ed wrote:

 >The main problem is establishing whether the MP was there and
 >saw what he says he saw. As far as I know, aside from the
 >cameraman, we have no other first hand account of what happened
 >at the site during this time (while the craft was being loaded).

Here we go again...

This alleged "MP" and the alleged "cameraman" share a lot in
common; namely, there's no proof that they even exist! The main
problem is _not_ whether the MP was there or not. The main
problem is whether he exists at all.

But let's continue this fantasy:

 >He does not want to be
 >identified at this time but he has proved to me that he was
 >there. I believe him and the story, as improbable as it may
 >sound.

Of course you do. I knew that was coming when you first posted
this story and claimed that you "shouldn't give up on AA"...

And now this:

 >There are other facts that he reported that I have not yet
 >revealed. I'd like folks to treat this witness with respect.

Why don't you treat _us_ with respect, Ed? We're not stupid. How
can you have any "facts" (reported or otherwise) if you still
don't know if this guy is on the level? You have no facts; only
what you choose to believe about someone you've never met.

 >The
 >MP will answer questions, if he knows the answers. Send your
 >questions to the list, I'll send them on to him and he'll
 >respond.

Does this ring a bell with anyone reading this?

Isn't this the kind of non-sense that Bob Shell had to go
through when he wanted to talk to the alleged "cameraman" and
Santilli wouldn't let him? Bob had to ask Santilli the questions
and then Santilli would ask the cameraman, etc. Having gotten
nowhere with Santilli's hokem, it now looks like Ed's got his
own personal 'in' on the Roswell story to keep him afloat...

So the fantasy continues; carried on by disciple Ed:

 >And yes the DOD did question the MP. And yes it wasn't an
 >official organization in July since the National security Act
 >wasn't signed until Sept.17, of 1947. But the seals on the AA
 >film cans were DOD, so we have evidence that the DOD was active
 >although not yet "official".

And if you were to put on Elvis's coat then _you_'d be the
"King", right?

The boxes mean nothing, Ed. Even if the DOD labels were correct
for that time period, there is no proof that they belonged to
the alleged original "film" which neither you nor anyone else
has seen! In essence you've got a fake Elvis coat for an equally
fake Elvis.

I had hoped this silliness would die on the vine.

Later,
Roger Evans







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               Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947

From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman@psln.com>
Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2000 18:40:49 -0800
Fwd Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2000 08:34:05 -0400
Subject: Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947


Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2000 21:02:29 -0400 (EDT)
To: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
Subject: Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947
To: updates@sympatico.ca

<Snip>

 >depending on when he
 >got out of the service, he would have likely referred to DOD as
 >DOD because thats what its been for the last 53 years and likely
 >was the "official organization" when he got out of the service.

Robert,

He clearly remembers that it was the DOD who told him to keep
quiet. Two men in suits; the CO wasn't there. He had never heard
of the DOD before and therefore it stuck in his mind.

The AA footage containers had DOD seals (dated july 30 ) or
maybe a better term would be stamps on them. This has been
confirmed as far as I know.

You can characterize this information any way you want but the
AA is an historic document and should be treated as such.

As I've repeated so many times, there is not one shred of proof
that the AA is a fake. All the so-called evidence against it has
turned out to be red herrings, disinformation, and ridicule.

There is a connection between the AA debris, the Fort Worth
debris, and the MP's story.

The DOD should be the least of our concerns, although
interesting.

Don't you think Roswell could have been a test-run, their first
BIG challenge? Ed







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               Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947

From: Bob Young  <YoungBob2@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2000 22:46:15 -0400 (EDT)
Fwd Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2000 08:38:41 -0400
Subject: Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947


 >From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman@psln.com>
 >Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2000 08:51:46 -0800
 >Fwd Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2000 16:15:43 -0400
 >Subject: Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947

<snip>

 >And yes the DOD did question the MP. And yes it wasn't an
 >official organization in July since the National security Act
 >wasn't signed until Sept.17, of 1947. But the seals on the AA
 >film cans were DOD, so we have evidence that the DOD was active
 >although not yet "official".

Ed and listers:

This sounds like BS straining to become an explanation for a
hoaxer's clumsy goof.  All the 'DOD' seals prove is that they
were most likely put on the cans after September 17, 1949.

Clear skies,
Bob Young







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                         New Cydonia Images Released

From: Blair Cummins <ufoblair@hotmail.com>
Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2000 23:15:31 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2000 08:41:24 -0400
Subject: New Cydonia Images Released


Greetings list -

NASA has released 10 new images of the Mars Cydonia Region.

The new images can be found at:

http://www.msss.com/mars_images/moc/4_5_00_cydonia/index.html

For the complete story about the release of the new images,
visit Destination: Space at:

http://www.solarcafe.com/destinationspace/

Best regards,

- Blair Cummins
ufoblair@hotmail.com








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               Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947

From: Georgina Bruni <georgina@easynet.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2000 14:00:36 +0100
Fwd Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2000 13:06:12 -0400
Subject: Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947


 >Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2000 21:33:30 -0500
 >From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net>
 >Subject: Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

Here we go again...

Roger wrote:

 >Why don't you treat _us_ with respect, Ed? We're not stupid. How
 >can you have any "facts" (reported or otherwise) if you still
 >don't know if this guy is on the level? You have no facts; only
 >what you choose to believe about someone you've never met.

Roger, I agree that there needs to be a great deal more proof
regarding the MP story but your approach to this is the kind of
attitude that puts off witnesses in the first place.

The possibility that there is an alleged witness here should not
be dismissed as frivolous but should be looked into further. I
have had similar situations with witnesses as I'm sure we all
have, but usually when they feel more comfortable talking about
it, they then might disclose their identity and more details
which might help prove their testimony.

However, you cannot expect anyone to talk about their experience
when they are confronted by such negativity and disbelief. The
UFO enigma is still very sensitive to some people and they need
reassurance that they won't be subjected to ridicule or harm.
This is especially so when it comes to former military
personnel.

If the MP story turns out to be nonsense and time is wasted, so
be it - but past experience has proved that there are genuine
witnesses out there.

Don't be too hard on Ed. I think it was jolly decent of him to share that
information with other researchers who might be able to check further
details.

Georgina Bruni








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               Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947

From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2000 09:00:25 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2000 13:07:48 -0400
Subject: Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947


 >Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2000 18:40:49 -0800
 >From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman@psln.com>
 >Subject: Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

<snip>

 >Don't you think Roswell could have been a test-run, their first
 >BIG challenge? Ed

I think that's doubtful.

As Stanton has pointed out repeatedly, the actions of the
military in Roswell gave every indication that they had a
process in place to handle this type of occurance.

The impression is that they were caught off guard by the
decision to issue a press release on the recovery, which they
quickly counterred with the "balloon" explanation.

Steve







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               Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947

From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2000 09:16:30 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2000 13:12:26 -0400
Subject: Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947


 >Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2000 21:33:30 -0500
 >From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net>
 >Subject: Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >>From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman@psln.com>
 >>Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2000 08:51:46 -0800
 >>Fwd Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2000 16:15:43 -0400
 >>Subject: Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947

 >Previously, Ed wrote:

 >>The main problem is establishing whether the MP was there and
 >>saw what he says he saw. As far as I know, aside from the
 >>cameraman, we have no other first hand account of what happened
 >>at the site during this time (while the craft was being loaded).

 >Here we go again...

 >This alleged "MP" and the alleged "cameraman" share a lot in
 >common; namely, there's no proof that they even exist! The main
 >problem is _not_ whether the MP was there or not. The main
 >problem is whether he exists at all.

 >But let's continue this fantasy:

 >>He does not want to be
 >>identified at this time but he has proved to me that he was
 >>there. I believe him and the story, as improbable as it may
 >>sound.

 >Of course you do. I knew that was coming when you first posted
 >this story and claimed that you "shouldn't give up on AA"...

Roger-

I think that it's possible to be skeptical, and still maintain
an open mind regarding witnesses. Of course it will be up to
this mysterious witness to eventually come forward to prove his
case, but his desire to get information out without putting
himself in the public's eye is to a certain degree
understandable.

Researchers that I work with have dozens of witnesses to unusual
events that refuse to make their claims public. That's one of
the factors that researchers keep in mind as they dig further
into this phenomenon. NICAP has numerous case files on record
that were provided anonymously with only the single researcher
knowing that person's identity.

I would suggest that Ed contact this "MP" and have him get in
contact with one of the many Roswell researchers on this list
and begin a private dialog with that person.

Ed's support of the controversial 'Alien Autopsy' film merely
clouds the credibility of this witness in the eyes of many of us
and the MP's story should be examined on its own merit.

IMO, if he declines to come forward or carry this further, then
this new 'evidence' carries no more weight than the bandwidth
that brought it to us.

Steve







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                    UFO Desk - Keyboard/Voice/Video Chat

From: Paul Williams <paulw@escape.com>
Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2000 09:54:26 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2000 13:21:34 -0400
Subject: UFO Desk - Keyboard/Voice/Video Chat


All,

Formal launching of the new vastly improved UFO Desk website.

Please visit. Join evening chats, Monday thru Friday evening
around 9:00 pm East coast time, US. Join me in my video/voice chat
room.

Last evening I had three folks in the room.

Joining us was friend and former UFO Desk guest, David John
Oates of www.davidoates.com He does research in the field of
reverse speech linguistics.

Any time you wish to venture into my chat room you're more than
welcome. If you don't have 'Hear Me' software on your machine it
will take about 15 mins to d/l.

The name of the room is UFO Desk Online. You enter the room via
my website. I sure would love your company some time. This is
voice and video chat. So if you have a cam we can see you, Mic
is nice to hear you, but all that's really needed is keyboard to
communicate with.

Please invite all your friends.

Also you can get free voice/video chat for your website at same
place.

Look forward to hearing from all of you.


Paul Williams

www.anomalies.net/~ufodesk







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   Apr > Apr 7

                      'European Journal Of UFO Studies'

From: Edoardo Russo <e.russo@cisu.org>
Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2000 11:28:36 +0200
Fwd Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2000 13:24:43 -0400
Subject: 'European Journal Of UFO Studies'


Hello list-members everywhere!

You may be interested in learning that the first issue of the
"European Journal of UFO And Abduction Studies" (EJUFOAS) is now
available.

EJUFOAS is born as an attempt to bring the European UFO
community together, an idea put forward by Craig Roberts.

After graduating with a thesis in psychology about UFOs, Craig
has been teaching "ufology" in the only existing UFO course in a
UK college, in Totton. He and his students formed a group called
TRUTH  [The Totton Researchers of Ufology Theory and History]
and in 1999 launched the idea of an academic-style UFO journal,
much like the now-defunct UPIAR (UFO Phenomena International
Annual Review) of the '70s or CUFOS Journal of UFO Studies, but
more Europe-oriented.

The journal has been initially set up to bring the European UFO
community closer and is primarily, but not exclusively, aimed at
these organisations.

The journal is objective in nature, allowing an outlet for the
broad spectrum of issues related to UFO and Abduction phenomena.
This includes all academic based subjects (e.g. astronomy,
biology, psychology etc.) as well as spiritual aspects,
scepticism and new theoretical issues.

Therefore, the European Journal of UFO and Abduction Studies
wants to publish ufological papers and ideas from a wide range
of individuals, organisations and stand points.

The Journal put an editorial board together, formed by some
well-known ufologists from several European countries (UK,
France, Spain, Portugal, Romania, Russia and Italy) and each
submitted article is refereed before being accepted for
publication.

A launch issue (No. 0) was published in September, 1999,
with articles like:

- Project for a database of ball lightning observations in Italy.
Paolo Toselli & Renato Fedele [Italy]

- Preliminary Identifications of alien contact / abduction
experiences as hallucinatory states induced by prolonged
exposures to electromagnetic pollution in the environment.
Albert Budden [UK]

- UFO declassification - The Spanish model.
Vicente-Juan Ballester Olmos [Spain]

Volume 1 No. 1 issue was just released in March, 2000,
with articles like:

- Physics from UFO Data.
Massimo Teodorani [Italy]

- UK UFO Organizations:
What do they have knowledge of, and what do they investigate?
Craig Roberts [UK]

- Unusual Aerial Phenomena Tracked on radar in Romania.
Ion Lazeanu [Romania]

- A Debate on alleged evidence of covert human/military
involvement in North American alien abduction cases. Helmut
Lammer [Austria] vs. Luis R. Gonzalez Manso [Spain]

The Italian Center for UFO Studies (Centro Italiano Studi
Ufologici, CISU) - as well as some other European UFO
organizations - is helping to promote EJUFOAS and thus accepted
to host some pages about it on our website at:

http://www.cisu.org/ejufoas.htm

also mirrored at:

http://www.arpnet.it/ufo/ejufoas.htm

Therein you may find more details about the EJUFOAS concept, a
presentation of its editorial board members, detailed contents
of both the launch issue and the latest Vol. 1 No. 1,
instructions to (would-be) authors and a subscription form for
(would-be) readers.

More details may be asked directly from the editor in chief,
Craig Robers, B.Sc.: ejufoas@totton.ac.uk

Best regards



Edoardo Russo
Centro Italiano Studi Ufologici
CISU, Casella postale 82, 10100 Torino
tel 011-3290279 - fax 011-545033
http://www.cisu.org      e-mail: e.russo@cisu.org








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               Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947

From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman@psln.com>
Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2000 08:45:01 -0800
Fwd Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2000 13:33:23 -0400
Subject: Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947


 >Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2000 21:33:30 -0500
 >To: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net>
 >Subject: Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca



 >Here we go again...

We don't have to keep meeting like this Roger. Why does this
upset you so? I teach my students to ignore instigation. Maybe
you should ignore my post and allow someone else to handle this
if you aren't up to it. Do you have any questions?

 >This alleged "MP" and the alleged "cameraman" share a lot in
 >common; namely, there's no proof that they even exist! The main
 >problem is _not_ whether the MP was there or not. The main
 >problem is whether he exists at all.

So if I catch your drift, you're saying that I concocted the MP
from whole cloth. Now that's quite a charge. Do you have any
evidence? Is there anything you know about me that would lead
you to hold such a belief?

Many of my articles are on the web for you and everyone to read.
Only one deals with the AA or UFO and the rest are on other
subjects and I believe, quite informative; I've never been
accused of inventing facts.

But, I should make this clear to you and the list.

The MP is a real person, not a hoax, fake or invention. He wrote
to me and offered his first hand information. I've been
questioning him and trying to jar his memory. He's been open,
honest, and not defensive. He wants the story to come out and he
wants to help in any way he can but he doesn't want the wrath of
the DOD (or skeptics) on his head. I think you can understand
that, can't you? Do you have any questions for the MP?

 >I knew that was coming when you first posted
 >this story and claimed that you "shouldn't give up on AA"...

Yes, that's what he wrote. I was surprised and skeptical but as
we exchanged mail, he began to trust me and I him. You do
understand what a trusting relationship is, don't you?

 >Why don't you treat _us_ with respect, Ed? We're not stupid. How
 >can you have any "facts" (reported or otherwise) if you still
 >don't know if this guy is on the level? You have no facts; only
 >what you choose to believe about someone you've never met.

You're right, I do choose to believe him. He has given me
reasons to think he's telling the truth, information that I
hadn't read or heard mentioned before that jibes with other
information I've collected.

I'm a one trick pony when it comes to UFOs. My niche in the UFO
world is the AA. I think it's by far the best evidence we have
that our government hasn't been truthful about the Roswell
incident. When new evidence crops up, I try to keep an open
mind. You're also correct; the MP and I have never met, face to
face.

 >Having gotten
 >nowhere with Santilli's hokem, it now looks like Ed's got his
 >own personal 'in' on the Roswell story to keep him afloat...

So again you're saying that I'm inventing this... right? If the
MP's story is established as fact by all concerned, then yes it
will validate the AA along with MJ 12, and the Foster ranch
debris. I think that would be very interesting and exciting and
well worth the time I've spent. Besides, the MP and I have
developed a relationship that I value.


 >The boxes mean nothing, Ed. Even if the DOD labels were correct
 >for that time period, there is no proof that they belonged to
 >the alleged original "film" which neither you nor anyone else
has seen!

I know Errol will not allow us to go into all this again. Anyone
who wants an update on the discussion Roger and I are having and
have been having for the last seven months can read the archives
under my name or his. But for the record: the boxes that
contained the film that Ray Santilli bought from the cameraman
for $100,000, were stamped or sealed with the DOD emblem.

Ed








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               Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947

From: Royce J. Myers III <ufowatchdog@earthlink.net>
Date: Sat, 08 Apr 2000 10:09:29 -0700
Fwd Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2000 13:38:55 -0400
Subject: Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947

[Royce, check your calendar - its 24 hours ahead!--ebk]

 > Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2000 22:46:15 -0400 (EDT)
 > From: Bob Young  <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 > Subject: Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947
 > To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >  >From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman@psln.com>
 >  >Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2000 08:51:46 -0800
 >  >Fwd Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2000 16:15:43 -0400
 >  >Subject: Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947
 >
 > <snip>
 >
 >  >And yes the DOD did question the MP. And yes it wasn't an
 >  >official organization in July since the National security Act
 >  >wasn't signed until Sept.17, of 1947. But the seals on the AA
 >  >film cans were DOD, so we have evidence that the DOD was active
 >  >although not yet "official".
 >
 > Ed and listers:
 >
 > This sounds like BS straining to become an explanation for a
 > hoaxer's clumsy goof.  All the 'DOD' seals prove is that they
 > were most likely put on the cans after September 17, 1949.

As for the infamous AA Film, there is absolutely no solid
evidence that establishes _its_ authenticity.

The so-called 'cameraman' is a spoof and so is the entire film
as far as I'm concerned.

When you start having people dump 'evidence' in your lap and you
cannot establish a chain of evidence then you have _squat_.

There is more than ample proof going beyond a reasonable doubt
that Ray Santilli, the AA Film and the 'cameraman' are all a
fabrication. If the video interview with the 'camerman' isn't
proof enough, then you need serious help.

As for the latest in what seems to be an endless parade of
Roswell witnesses, the alleged MP is just that, alleged.

Though I can understand some witnesses being cautious about
coming forward, Roswell has had too much publicity.

The MP story, while interesting, is just that... a story with no
solid evidence or credible evidence to back it up. "I know a
guy"... "I have a cousin who has a friend"... My wife's
beautician's husband's friend knew someone who"... And on and on
it goes.

The MP story is nothing more than second hand. When this person
is ready to step forward, then let's hear about it. Until then,
it doesn't go beyong interesting.

And quoting the AA film sure doesn't help your credibility.

Also, the conflicting stories about where the bodies were taken,
the debris was taken, what was taken, descriptions of the
bodies, and so on, all seem to take new twists and no one seems
to be able to keep their story straight or the stories are
changed.

It's quite apparent that something extraordinary occurred at
Roswell in July of 1947 and it wasn't a weather balloon or
Santilli's fake alien.

Regards,

Royce J. Myers III

eXpos: The Watchdog of UFOlogy - "Don't Trip On Your Open Mind."
http://home.sprintmail.com/~rjm3  (eXpos: The Watchdog of UFOlogy)
http://home.earthlink.net/~ufowatchdog (UFO Hall o' Shame)







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               Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947

From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman@psln.com>
Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2000 09:52:18 -0800
Fwd Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2000 17:21:42 -0400
Subject: Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947


 >Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2000 09:16:30 -0400
 >To: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
 >Subject: Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>



 >I would suggest that Ed contact this "MP" and have him get in
 >contact with one of the many Roswell researchers on this list
 >and begin a private dialog with that person.

There's no need for a "private dialog" with the MP since you can
have it right here in the open for all to see. Ask away. What
questions do you have for the MP?

 >Ed's support of the controversial 'Alien Autopsy' film merely
 >clouds the credibility of this witness in the eyes of many of us
 >and the MP's story should be examined on its own merit.

The MP's story can only be understood in the context of the AA
since that's why he contacted me in the first place. He wanted
to let me know that the creature he saw on the Fox AA
presentation was one of the same creatures he saw at the site he
was guarding and that creature had six fingers. Everything else
comes from his wish to support my views. He is a witness that
verifies the reality of the AA.

If that's a problem for you then so be it. There's nothing I can
do about that.

 >IMO, if he declines to come forward or carry this further

That's why he wants to answer a few questions. He'd like to
prove that he is who he says he is but not give out his name.








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               Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947

From: Roger Prokic <rprokic@pobox.com>
Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2000 12:05:00 -0600
Fwd Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2000 17:26:17 -0400
Subject: Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947


 >Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2000 21:33:30 -0500
 >From: Roger Annette Evans <raka@swbell.net>
 >Subject: Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >>From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman@psln.com>
 >>Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2000 08:51:46 -0800
 >>Fwd Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2000 16:15:43 -0400
 >>Subject: Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947


 >I had hoped this silliness would die on the vine.

I'm starting to believe that Ed Gehrman is a "pen-name" for Ray
Santilli. <g>



Roger Prokic
Principal RF Systems Engineer
Ball Aerospace & Technologies Corp.
Boulder, Colorado USA
-=[ sent from a Palm IIIxe computer & Multimail Pro v3.1C ]=-







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               Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947

From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net>
Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2000 13:32:05 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2000 17:30:22 -0400
Subject: Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947


 >From: Georgina Bruni
 >Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2000 14:00:36 +0100
 >Fwd Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2000 13:06:12 -0400
 >Subject: Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947

 >>Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2000 21:33:30 -0500
 >>From: Roger Evans
 >>Subject: Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto

Previously I wrote:

 >>Why don't you treat _us_ with respect, Ed? We're not stupid. How
 >>can you have any "facts" (reported or otherwise) if you still
 >>don't know if this guy is on the level? You have no facts; only
 >>what you choose to believe about someone you've never met.

Georgina replied:

 >Roger, I agree that there needs to be a great deal more proof
 >regarding the MP story but your approach to this is the kind of
 >attitude that puts off witnesses in the first place.

<snip>

 >Don't be too hard on Ed. I think it was jolly decent of him to
 >share that information with other researchers who might be
 >able to check further >details.

Hi, Georgina!

Yes, jolly decent... and convenient! Ed was warned by EBK that
he wouldn't post anything else about AA unless there was
something "new". Then out of the blue we have a 'new' inside
informant for Roswell which just happens to tell Ed to "not give
up on AA" and that the alien in AA is "exactly like the one he
saw".

Please.

I do not believe that my approach would scare off anyone with
anything meaningful to add to this whole controversy. Like
everyone else, I'd ask hard questions and expect real answers
with some degress of evidence or proof. In fact, if the MP is
real then he must have been reading these ongoing posts about
AA. If so, then he'd know that Ed Gerhman is not the "go to" guy
for adding credibility to the MP's alleged accounts about
Roswell.

I mean, think about it...

Ed has taken nothing but hits about his devotion to AA. Nothing
Ed claims to be "fact" ever remotely resembled such. Ed has
repeatedly taken other's quotes out of context to support his
position. And when presented with the evidence he demands, he
simply turns a blind eye and says he doesn't believe it!

Now faced with all this baggage, doesn't it seem just a little
bit odd that Ed would be the ONLY person this guy would go to?
And doesn't it seem just a little bit odd that questions for
this guy should be handled _exactly_ like Santilli did with his
alleged cameraman? No one can talk to the MP directly.
Everything must filter through Ed. As I said, jolly convenient.

If this MP guy exists, he surely knows that there are others
more qualified to carry his story than Ed. Of course, more
qualified people will ask real questions and expect real
answers. So maybe this makes sense after all...

Later,

Roger Evans







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                     Re: UFOs over San Juan, Puerto Rico

From: Dr. Virgilio Sanchez-Ocejo <ufomiami@prodigy.net>
Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2000 14:51:18 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2000 17:33:16 -0400
Subject: Re: UFOs over San Juan, Puerto Rico


What's going on in Puerto Rico?

Under a clear blue sky at 5:50 PM, on March 25, 2000, an aerial
show was mounted over San Juan, Puerto Rico by two high flying
objects.

The objects were seeing by several ground eyewitnesses as they
were traveling in opposite directions. One was traveling west at
an approximate bearing of 295-degrees magnetic. The other was
traveling east at a bearing of 115-degrees magnetic. At least
one of the eyewitnesses, Celestino "Junior" Ortiz, a popular
radio announcer for Alpha Rock 105.7 FM was able to capture both
objects on his camcorder.

As he was leaving his house, he, his wife and son, and friends
spotted de mysterious objects toward the west at about a
20-degree angle. He rushed for his camcorder and begun filming.

The objects initially looked liked comets or meteors entering
the atmosphere. The object traveling east passed high above over
the eyewitness and the members of his family. No sound of jet
engines or sonic boom were heard as it flew by. A few days later
Mr. Ortiz contacted Luz Guzman and requested her to study his
case. A preliminary visual analysis of the video showed a bright
object that looked like two spheres, one behind the other and a
perpendicular structure coming out to the side between the
spheres. Behind the object there was a zone of clear sky of
about the same length of the object's fuselage and then there
was a small vapor contrail. At times the observers reported that
the object had an orange glow. The contrail was about 30 times
the length of the object's fuselage.

The two objects traveled in opposite directions until they were
out of the line of sight. Many separate frames of video were
enhanced and enlarged to search for any indication of airplane
wings on both sides of the object in order to dismiss this
sighting as a high flying jet airplane, but no evidence of wings
were identified.

On the same day of this sighting, one hour later at 6:50 p.m.,
one of the objects was seen as it headed out to sea at a bearing
of 330 degrees magnetic. Reports of this sighting were received
at a local Ufology radio program describing the same objects
later that night.

This was the second UFO sighting two days in a row over San
Juan. Although there may be no relation, the two sightings took
place in the week that high military officers from Latin America
and USA were meeting at a military base on southern Puerto Rico
and a new over the horizon radar (ROTER) that may be associated
to HAARP was being activated on the island.

-Luz Guzman and Orlando Pla from OVNI.NET are investigating this
case.-

See photos from video at our MIAMI UFO REPORTER under:"What s
going on in Puerto Rico?"

http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Corridor/1341/index.html

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
ALSO:

At the same time, we received reports from the south side of Puerto Rico, Cabo R
ojo and Lajas, of UFOs sightings, but eyewitnesses discovered that it was an air
plane, a Jumbo Jet size airplane, with many color lights and a strong white spot
 light in the center, flying at low altitude and with almost not sound. "We don'
t know its intentions or to whom the Jet airplane belongs" our friends reported.
 "It was seeing flying around 8 p.m..and at midnight.  Many people mistakenly re
port it as a UFO, that is why we started a night vigil and discovered it was an
airplane. We only heard a very low sound when it flow over us".
The witnesses do not want their names become public.

NOTE: By coincidence, this sighting also took place in the week that high milita
ry officers from Latin America and USA were meeting at a military base on southe
rn Puerto Rico and a new over the horizon radar (ROTER) that may be associated t
o HAARP was being activated on the island.


Dr. Virgilio Sanchez-Ocejo
Miami UFO Center
http://www.angelfire.com/fl/ufomiami/index.html
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Corridor/1341/index.html








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   Apr > Apr 7

               Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947

From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net>
Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2000 15:22:49 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2000 17:36:41 -0400
Subject: Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947


 >Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2000 18:40:49 -0800
 >From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman@psln.com>
 >Subject: Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >The DOD should be the least of our concerns, although
 >interesting.

 >Don't you think Roswell could have been a test-run, their first
 >BIG challenge? Ed


Well...the DOD is the Department of Defense. Its first _big_
challenge would have been to realize its mission -- to put the
formerly independent branches of the armed forces under a
unified command. That -- even if Roswell was real -- would be a
much harder bureaucratic and politcal challenge than keeping an
alien crash secret.

Greg Sandow







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   Apr > Apr 7

               Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947

From: David Furlotte <furry@nobelmed.com>
Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2000 17:55:04 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2000 20:20:49 -0400
Subject: Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947


 >Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 14:26:35 -0800
 >From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman@psln.com>
 >Subject: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>


Hello List, EBK et AL,

Wow. Ed this is quite the situation you find yourself in with an
inside scoop to a MP who actually was guarding the crash site.

I find this extremely interesting because I'm in the process of
writing a fictional tale which incorporates Roswell into it.
However, the most interesting part to me is that your MP sounds
an awful lot like a character I created for my book. (I don't
suppose your MP goes by the name of Malley?... <grin>... just a
joke, Ed.)

In all seriousness though, if you have encountered a gentleman
who claims to be a MP stationed at Roswell during the event, I
have a few questions that I would like to pose.

Incidentally, these are the same questions I posed to my
fictional Sergeant Malley, the only difference is that I already
_knew_ the answers that he was going to give... <g>

Now for the questions,

1.  Why have you waited until _now_ to come forward with this
    tale?

2.  Do you have any _physical_ proof to support what you say?

3.  Why did you not tell anyone sooner of this story?

4.  Are you expecting to make any money or have we (sic) paid
     you any money for this?

I would like to see the answers to these questions firstly
before I would venture any further time into this.

Now, to the detractors to Ed's MP.

Okay, let's examine some of the FACTS for FUN, shall we?

1.  MP's DID exist back in 1947.

2.  MP's would probably have been used to police a site
     considered important by any military organization.

3.  An MP who saw something _could_ potentially decide to share
     his story with us.

4.  IF an MP did see something unusual the military would have
     used a number of things to get him to keep his silence,
     including orders, getting him to sign documents of a
     National Secrecy Oath or any of a dozen different things to
     shut him up.

I'm NOT saying that Ed's MP is the real thing, however, I'm
equally not jumping down his throat and yelling HOAX either.
Let's try to deal like adults about this and give Ed a little
room to breathe before we crucify him and the MP as some kind of
hoax or story.

Oh, and before I get any emails or queries about Sergeant
Malley? He is 100% PURE fiction concocted in my mind as a
central character to my story which is EQUALLY fictional.

Dave (Furry)







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   Apr > Apr 7

                      Voyager Newsletter - Issue No. 10

From: James Easton <voyager@ukonline.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 08 Apr 2000 01:47:27 +0100
Fwd Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2000 22:25:57 -0400
Subject: Voyager Newsletter - Issue No. 10


                 Voyager Newsletter - Issue No. 10


CONTENTS

1. Significant New Evidence Questions Foremost 'Flying Saucer'
    Sighting.

2. Aliens Killed My Dog and Made Me Poor - Send Money.

3. Introspection.

4. The Alien Autopsy and Some Intriguing Connections.

5. Lost and Found One ET Spaceship - Contact the Weather
    Bureau.

6. Ever Decreasing Circles.


                          O0O~O0O~O0O~O0O


1. Significant New Evidence Questions Foremost 'Flying Saucer'
Sighting.

A new breakthrough may help explain the puzzling sighting which
sparked 50 years of 'flying saucer' reports.

It was on 24 June 1947, that private pilot Kenneth Arnold
observed a formation of nine crescent-shaped objects near Mt.
Rainier. Although unable to identify them, Arnold believed they
were possibly a new type of jet and timed their airspeed as
approximately 1200 mph, much faster than any known aircraft.

However, the objects didn't fly like aircraft, they weaved and
undulated in a chain-like arrangement. Arnold later commented
how this resembled a flock of geese and compared the flight
characteristics to "the tail of a Chinese kite", also noting
that the objects in formation "flew like a saucer would if you
skipped it across the water". In the ensuing media and public
hysteria, this latter depiction of their flight, not their
shape, quickly became misinterpreted and 'flying saucers' were
born. Available on-line is a subsequent interview in which
Arnold acknowledges the flying saucer mythology that grew out of
this misunderstanding - see:

http://www.project1947.com/fig/kamurrow.htm

In 1997, researcher Martin Kottmeyer revisited this pivotal
'UFO' case and in an article entitled, 'Resolving Arnold'
concluded:

"In 'The Coming of the Saucers' he said they momentarily
disappeared 'behind a jagged peak that juts out from Mount
Rainier proper.' In his memoir for the First International UFO
Congress he says, 'When they turned length-wise or flat-wise to
me they were very thin and they actually disappeared from sight
behind a projection on Mount Rainier in the snowfield.' These
are not exactly the same thing, but they give a fair indication
of what to look for on the geological survey maps.

Arnold estimated the crafts were at an altitude of 9,200 feet
plus or minus 1,000. The task at hand is thus to locate some
feature extending above the 8,200 foot level. This yields a neat
little surprise. There are no such peaks between Mount Rainier
and Mount Adams. The closest thing I could find was Pyramid Peak
which stands only 6,937 feet tall in front of Mount Rainier's
base. There is a sharp little projection called Little Tacoma
which sticks out around the 10,000 foot level, but it is on the
wrong side of the mountain to be seen from Arnold's flight path.
It would be badly stretching things to suggest he got either his
position or altitude that far wrong".

One of the earliest, related references came from a lengthy
newspaper article in the 'Pendleton, Oregon East Oregonian' on
June 26, 1947:

"He said he could estimate the distance of the objects better
because an intervening peak once blocked his view of them. He
found the peak was 25 miles away, he related.

The Boise flyer said they flew on the west sides of Rainier and
Adams, adding that he believed this would make it more difficult
for them to be seen from the ground".

Both these perceptions were critical to Arnold's estimates of
the objects' distance and speed. Curiously, he was subsequently
unable to identify the landmark and its probable identity has
remained elusive - until now.

Following discussions with other interested researchers and the
perusal of several, different topographical maps, it seemed
there was only one likely candidate for 'Arnold's peak'.
Confident this could yet be determined, I wrote to some
indigenous sources who had expertise of the mountain range:

"I wonder if you could offer an informed opinion concerning a
historical observation near Mt. Rainier.

I'm trying to locate what was described by an observer in the
1940s as, `a jagged peak that juts out from the base of Mount
Rainier proper'.

Having research the locality from topographical maps, I'm still
uncertain about the identity of this peak and what constitutes
`the base of Mount Rainier proper'.

An important clue could be that the writer was a pilot and made
this observation from approximately over the town of Mineral and
heading in the mountain's direction.

Therefore, the `jagged peak' must be visible from that location,
to the west/southwest of Mt. Rainier.

Any opinions or comments would be greatly appreciated and could
be of invaluable help in my research.

It would be fully understood that any opinions would be a 'best
guess' and I'm happy to have more than one possibility suggested
for this `jagged peak'."

David Basset is a mountaineer with vast experience of Mt.
Rainier and surrounding peaks. He responded:

"The jagged peak you are referring to is clearly Little Tahoma.
It is jagged because it is unglaciated and very steep. It rises
from the base of Mt. Rainier on the East or Southeast side. You
said the observation was taken from the west or southwest. This
might be troubling because it is on the other side of the
mountain, but rest assured, Little Tahoma is the peak. It stands
out, being much higher than any other mountain close to
Rainier".

Located at Mt. Rainier National Park, Chris Trotter, the Park
Guide and Douglas Kraus, the Park Naturalist, confirmed:

"The consensus from my co-workers is that the 'jagged peak' is
Little Tahoma. This peak can be seen from many areas around the
mountain. Mt. Rainier is said to rise 11,000 feet from its
base".

Little Tahoma (or Tacoma) was indeed the only peak which seemed
to match Arnold's description and it could have been visible
from his location.

If now resolved, the repercussions are fundamental.

Arnold, flying more or less eastwards towards Mt. Rainier's
slopes, consistently and repeatedly clarified how the nine
objects, travelling southwards, passed directly in front of him
on the western slopes of Mt. Rainier.

However, Little Tahoma is on the mountain's far eastern side, as
can be seen from the following map:

http://web.ukonline.co.uk/voyager/rainier.jpg

The obvious conclusion - Arnold misperceived how those nine
objects momentarily disappeared behind this remote peak. In
fact, they absolutely must have passed in front of it.

As Arnold confirmed he relied on the apparent, fleeting
disappearance behind a far-off peak to establish the objects'
distance, that perspective is evidently unreliable and analogous
to the situation Kottmeyer theorised:

"Normally one prefers early accounts to later ones, but the
Congress memoir may provide the clue to what happened here. When
the object turned flatwise, the optical thickness likely dropped
below the one half minute resolution limit and briefly dropped
from sight. The rough surface of the mountain provided
opportunities for an illusory correlation of the disappearance
to some feature of the mountain. The disappearance seemed to be
caused by an intervening feature where none in fact existed.
With no firm lower distance estimate, the way is opened for the
objects being closer to Arnold than he had surmised".

It's Kottmeyer's latter argument which is now significantly
established.

Kottmeyer further reasoned that this allowed for the possibility
that our nine unidentified aerial artefacts could have been
Swans.

I have previously published the results of my ensuing research,
when Arnold's description of the object's quite distinctive
flight characteristics were discussed with knowledgeable Pacific
North-west ornithologists. They immediately recognised that
these quite specific characteristics were consistent with a
formation of south-bound, failed-breeder, American White
Pelicans (AWP).

The background to this story can be found on my web site at:

http://web.ukonline.co.uk/voyager/

It's taken over two years further research to fully understand
this possibility in an explainable and sustainable context.

To briefly recap, beyond any dispute now are the following facts
concerning these birds:

1. They are the largest species in North America and amongst the
biggest in the world. Although an extremely rare sighting in the
Cascade mountain range and almost certainly a species Arnold
would never have considered, they continue to be recorded in the
vicinity as high altitude migrants.

2. Predominately white, with black wing-tips, they are highly
reflective, being referred to as "sparkling" and "flashing" in
the far distance, even when effectively lost from sight (see the
aforementioned material on my web site).

'Collins Encyclopaedia of Animals', [p 438], also notes:

"The surface structure of the feathers may affect a bird's
appearance in other ways. In certain birds, including pelicans,
terns and petrels, some black pigmented feathers in the wings
may in fact have a silvery appearance.

The silver gleam is caused by light reflected from very long,
fine, non-pigmented fibres in the feathers".

3. They fly with an undulating motion like a roller coaster and
exactly as Arnold attributed to the enigmatic observation.

Arnold stated: "As I described them at the time their flight was
like speed boats on rough water or similar to the tail of a
Chinese kite that I once saw blowing in the wind".

Comparatively, in an article entitled, 'Pelicans', by G.
Alexander Virden, the writer recalls his own encounter with a
much larger formation, witnessed from the ground: "They appear
as crepe paper strips, tied to an invisible wind".

4. They employ a distinctive flapping and gliding motion, often
sailing for long periods on their massive wings.

As Arnold described how the nine objects "fluttered and sailed",
this is such an obvious correlation.

It must be accepted that whatever Arnold witnessed, those nine
objects were at least amazingly similar to a formation of AWPs.

This perhaps appreciably indicates what is clearly the most
likely resolution of Arnold's encounter, especially adding the
realisation that as Arnold's perception of distance was
manifestly mistaken, his size and speed estimates can be
expected to contain consequential misperceptions.

Any objections why this would be improbable must take into
account Arnold's second 'mass UFO' sighting - he had in total
some five alleged UFO encounters - when he observed, "a cluster
of about twenty to twenty-five brass coloured objects that
looked like ducks" and which were two or three feet in diameter.
Arnold claimed, "I knew they were not ducks because ducks don't
fly that fast".

Ducks are in fact known to be capable of airspeeds reaching
75mph and there seems little, if any, doubt these were birds,
probably ducks, and not a miniature alien invasion fleet.

Yet Arnold didn't recognise this, even though they statedly came
within 400 yards of his aircraft and he also noted, "I was a
little bit shocked and exited when I realized they had the same
flight characteristics of the large objects I had observed on
June 24".

It seems such an extraordinarily blatant clue to the overall
explanation, even if we can't understand why it wasn't equally
so to Kenneth Arnold.

We shouldn't overlook either that those objects were never
saucer-shaped, plus confirmed by Arnold to be extremely thin, or
that there was not long afterwards, a striking 'flying disc'
encounter nearby:

'New Westminster British Columbian'
Saturday, July 12, 1947

'SAYS FLYING SAUCERS ARE PELICANS'

Spokane, Wash., July 12 (BUP).

A veteran Northwest Airlines pilot who has flown over the
Pacific northwest's 'flying saucer' country for 15 years today
took all the glamor out of the mystery of the flying discs.

All that people have been seeing, he said, are pelicans. Or
maybe geese or swans.

Capt. Gordon Moore disclosed that he and his co-pilot, Vern
Kesler were saucer-hunting last Wednesday on a regular flight
between here and Portland, Ore. Kesler was sure he had seen some
flying saucers on July 2, and the pilots were armed with movie
cameras and binoculars for another encounter.

'Suddenly we spotted nine big round disks weaving northward two
thousand feet below us,' Moore related.

'We investigated and found they were real all right --- real
pelicans'."

As I've said before, if the above sighting had been unresolved,
it would possibly have become a classic 'flying saucer' tale,
cited as important evidence corroborating Arnold's observation.
These 'saucers' even "weaved", just like Arnold described.

And if anyone had suggested they might have been nine American
White Pelicans, why that would in all probability be quite
absurd.


                          O0O~O0O~O0O~O0O


2. Aliens Killed My Dog and Made Me Poor - Send Money.

I'm not sure what the attraction is in the Cascades, however,
another purported nearby alien encounter was featured at the
recent Nevada 'International UFO Congress'. This extract comes
from the background narrative, which can be read at:

http://www.odysseylink.net/The%20Story.htm

"This is a true story with profound implications. It is the
story of Jonathan Reed, PhD. a research psychologist living, at
the time of his encounter, near Seattle, Washington State in the
U.S.

Dr. Reed met a strange creature which was later determined to be
an extraterrestrial, while hiking in the Cascade Mountains near
Seattle with his seven year old Golden Retriever, Suzy, in
October of 1996. He confronted, and apparently killed the being
after it had killed and destroyed Suzy.

Dr. Reed has been in hiding after disclosing his encounter to
certain organizations and close friends. His bank account was
drained, his college transcripts erased and his career and
credentials obliterated".

We have come to expect no less. What kind of reputable alien
attack/cover-up witness would be able to verify their claimed
credentials, for goodness sake.

It might get the subject a respectable name.

Although understandable why it's considered to be a pretty awful
hoax, what's the difference between this tale of alien terror
and those which have long since been the central feature of most
'UFO' conferences?

Wasn't the 'Brooklyn Bridge' alien kidnap story, co-authored by
Budd Hopkins and the person supposedly abducted in her nightie,
regarded as equally ludicrous? Yet, whilst Reed and his partner,
Robert Raith, are accused of being out to make a fast buck and
looking for a book deal, etc., Hopkins has reportedly made more
than a few bucks on several books.

Is it that the Reed/Raith story is such a barefaced fraud and
doesn't merit comparison? If so, then why, we might ask, were
the perpetrators invited to dupe a gullible audience and where
were objections from the many other participants, largely
representative of current UFO related beliefs and publications.

Perhaps as so much of their own material, i.e., MJ-12, alien
implants, ice crystals attacking earth, Billy Meier and others'
portfolios of hoaxed 'flying saucer' photos, secret underground
alien bases, etc. is debatably on a par with Reed and Raith's,
it was thought best to 'look the other way'. Anyhow, what would
be the point, apparently the audience loved Reed's compelling
account and were hostile towards any voiced suggestions it might
not be, you know, 'real'.

Yes of course it's all now a circus and the promoters know
exactly what sells books, magazines and seats.

STEP RIGHT UP folks - see the FERRRocious alien, bravely
captured by your poor, guest speaker. This is the beast from
beyond that ate his dog. Oops, my mistake, that's actually
Michael Hesemann...

Prior to the conference, a lone voice of protest and calling for
some common sense was Royce J. Myers III. Royce has set up a web
site entitled, 'UFO Hall of Frauds, Dirtbags, Dupes and Morons',
at:

http://home.earthlink.net/~ufowatchdog/

An ongoing project, we can only trust he has Gigabytes of
available web space.


                          O0O~O0O~O0O~O0O


3. Introspection.

Perhaps one surprising omission from the Nevada trail was Nick
Pope, a UK government employee and acknowledged believer that
aliens are in fact kidnapping people in their nighties - the
victims being in nighties of course, not the ET kidnappers,
although who knows. This is of course when they're not, as Pope
also claims to believe, creating crop circles [it's doubtless a
busy night schedule].

In previous newsletters, I've highlighted how his contention to
have investigated 'alien abductions', crop circles and 'cattle
mutilations', on behalf of HM Government, is evidently somewhat
removed from the facts.

It seems Mr Pope is rather miffed about this exposure and
especially the letter I obtained from the MoD, confirming that
Pope's duties - he once had a clerical role in the Ministry of
Defence (MoD) office which handles 'UFO' reports - were rather
more mundane than perhaps he has portrayed:

"The main duties of the post concern non-operational RAF
activities overseas and diplomatic clearance policy for military
flights abroad".

"The Ministry of Defence has not investigated a case of alien
abduction, crop circle formations or animal mutilation".

The Ministry's letter can be seen at:

http://web.ukonline.co.uk/voyager/mod.jpg

Many people in the UFO community, including Pope, apparently
make a lot of money selling and promoting books with tales about
ET's temporarily removing folks for a quick 'physical' et al and
yet some are now reportedly complaining that the promotion of
Reed and Raith's chronicles are ruining any scientific
credibility the UFO subject might have.

Is this what's known as a 'can of worms'?


                          O0O~O0O~O0O~O0O


4. The Alien Autopsy and Some Intriguing Connections.

Although Reed has a photograph of his (presumed) rubber model
alien, it's no-where near the quality of our beloved 'alien
autopsy' creature.

What follows is a facet of the alien autopsy story, yet to be
told.

During August 1996, Graham Birdsall, editor of 'UFO Magazine'
(UK) was contacted by someone called James Toledano, who said
his father was a co-owner of the 'alien autopsy' footage. At the
time, James Toledano worked for a company called Webmedia, who
design web sites and have a number of 'blue chip' companies
amongst their clients.

He explained that a web site called 'Area 51' was to be launched
and would be used in marketing 'sensational' new video footage
which had been secretly smuggled out of 'Area 51' and showed an
alien, if I recall correctly, being interrogated.

This may have some connection to the dreadful 'alien
interrogation' film which subsequently appeared - additional
background can be found at:

http://www.ufomind.com/area51/interrogation/

Graham was asked if 'UFO Magazine' would be interested in taking
out some advertising on the site.

As I had researched the background of Ray Santilli's companies,
the name Toledano wasn't unfamiliar; one of Santilli's business
partners was Joshua Toledano. I asked Santilli if he could
comment on this new development and he was adamant that Joshua
(Joe) Toledano had nothing whatsoever to do with the 'alien
autopsy' film.

I telephoned James Toledano and asked if he could elaborate on
this new footage. However, there was the distinct impression
that in the meantime someone must have 'had a word' with
Toledano, who acknowledged being the son of Santilli's partner.

There was no story, no footage, nothing and Graham Birdsall must
have been imagining things, or words to that effect, claimed
Toledano Jnr.

I contacted him again later and he was no less contrite.

My conclusion was that by apparently attempting to cash-in on
the 'alien autopsy' hype, James Toledano had compromised the
ongoing marketing by Santilli and whomever else was making money
from it. Toledano's contact with Birdsall, a staunch critic of
the 'autopsy' film, was perhaps naive and in short, Toledano had
been persuaded to rapidly backtrack on the entire story.

However, I have now uncovered significant new evidence and for
the first time ever, it can be conclusively shown why there is
some substance behind these alleged events.

The UK domain name registration records confirm:

Domain Name: AREA51.CO.UK
Registered For: James Toledano
Domain Registered By: NETNAMES
Registered on 22-Aug-1996.
Record last updated on 26-Nov-1997 by zahoor@webmedia.com
[End]

The domain has remained inactive since being registered.

More of interest in this overall periphery is a stunning
connection between James Toledano, Webmedia and someone who is
probably the foremost candidate and 'suspect' for creating the
original 'alien autopsy' footage.

He is a model maker and sculptor, also renowned as a creator of
imagery which challenges perceptions of the 'mysterious' and
'unexplained'. He is especially interested in creating artefacts
which might, and almost guaranteed will, be professed by others
as of 'alien' origin.

And aside from that, he's a thoroughly nice bloke.

More will be revealed as this unfolds.

Incidentally, before anyone cries, 'hoaxers and fakers - the
scourge of serious research', perhaps they might take a good
look at what's on offer from their next UFO publication or
conference.


                          O0O~O0O~O0O~O0O


5. Lost and Found One ET Spaceship - Contact the Weather Bureau.

When Mac Brazel did find that ostensibly unfamiliar 'Roswell'
debris on the Foster ranch, we might understand why he thought
it was an unusual device which had crashed down from the sky.

Surely therefore, he takes any wreckage samples - which could be
from a secret US test flight or even proof of a Russian threat -
to the military, or at least the local law enforcement. No.
Something persuades Brazel that the most likely and sensible way
of identifying this extraordinary debris is by going straight
to... the weather bureau.

Though you may not find it being highlighted by believers in an
'alien spaceship crash', according to Brazel's son, that's
exactly what his late father did. It was the Roswell weather
bureau who suggested he contact Sheriff Wilcox.

"I am sure that what I found was not any weather observation
balloon", Brazel reportedly protested when the debris material
had been identified.

So, why did he take it straight to the weather bureau and not
the police or military?


                          O0O~O0O~O0O~O0O


6. Ever Decreasing Circles.

Try as we might, there's no escape from it though; Arnold -
Roswell - 'Alien Autopsy'. One provides a foundation for the
other.

As we go to press, allegedly a new anonymous witness, a former
serviceman stationed at Roswell Army Air Force base, has come
forward to declare that both the Roswell crash and 'alien
autopsy' creatures are real. He knows, 'cos he was there,
naturally. See:

http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates/2000/apr/m01-002.shtml
http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates/2000/apr/m06-003.shtml
http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates/2000/apr/m07-002.shtml

Compared to the testimony which Ray Santilli swears originated
from the anonymous cameraman who filmed the crash site and
autopsies, this avowed new witness reportedly maintains that the
incident took place at a different date and location.

Furthermore, whilst the cameraman 'testifies' it was "a large
disc 'flying saucer' on its back", our new witness recalls, it
"looked like a damn stingray, with weird tile like objects under
it that had a faint glow" [this seems to draw on the 'Frank
Kaufmann' Roswell lore].

Where we really need to re-write the Roswell 'flying saucer'
legend [what, again...] and seemingly our understanding of
history, is the assertion that this new witness was debriefed by
the 'Department of Defense'.

No mistake, apparently, as "He clearly remembers that it was the
DOD who told him to keep quiet. Two men in suits; the CO wasn't
there. He had never heard of the DOD before and therefore it
stuck in his mind".

It's unlikely anyone had heard about the Department of Defense
in early July, 1947, as it's forerunner, the National Military
Establishment didn't come into existence until 26 July, 1947 and
that wasn't redesignated as the Department of Defense until
August, 1949...


If there's a theme to this newsletter, perhaps it's that the
most conspicuous clues to solving any mystery should be
recognised and never dismissed as too obvious. Otherwise, what
happens when we do come across simple, if surprisingly mundane,
explanations or outright hoaxes.


                          O0O~O0O~O0O~O0O


James Easton,
Editor.

E-mail: voyager@ukonline.co.uk
Voyager On-line: http://web.ukonline.co.uk/voyager/

(c) James Easton
April 2000









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               Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947

From: Steven W. Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2000 21:05:55 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2000 22:28:34 -0400
Subject: Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947


 >Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2000 09:52:18 -0800
 >From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman@psln.com>
 >Subject: Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2000 09:16:30 -0400
 >>To: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
 >>Subject: Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>I would suggest that Ed contact this "MP" and have him get in
 >>contact with one of the many Roswell researchers on this list
 >>and begin a private dialog with that person.

 >There's no need for a "private dialog" with the MP since you can
 >have it right here in the open for all to see. Ask away. What
 >questions do you have for the MP?

Ed-

If you cannot see the silliness of that statement, then there's
nothing more to be said about the subject.

Steve









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               Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947

From: Steven W. Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2000 21:05:55 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2000 22:37:44 -0400
Subject: Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947


 >Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2000 09:52:18 -0800
 >From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman@psln.com>
 >Subject: Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2000 09:16:30 -0400
 >>To: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
 >>Subject: Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>I would suggest that Ed contact this "MP" and have him get in
 >>contact with one of the many Roswell researchers on this list
 >>and begin a private dialog with that person.

 >There's no need for a "private dialog" with the MP since you can
 >have it right here in the open for all to see. Ask away. What
 >questions do you have for the MP?

Ed-

If you cannot see the silliness of that statement, then there's
nothing more to be said about the subject.

Steve









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               Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947

From: Brian Cuthbertson <brianc@fc.net>
Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2000 21:22:53 -0500 (CDT)
Fwd Date: Sat, 08 Apr 2000 11:04:10 -0400
Subject: Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947


According to Roger ...

 >Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2000 13:32:05 -0500
 >From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net>
 >Subject: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >I do not believe that my approach would scare off anyone with
 >anything meaningful to add to this whole controversy. Like
 >everyone else, I'd ask hard questions and expect real answers
 >with some degress of evidence or proof. In fact, if the MP is
 >real then he must have been reading these ongoing posts about
 >AA. If so, then he'd know that Ed Gerhman is not the "go to" guy
 >for adding credibility to the MP's alleged accounts about
 >Roswell.


I don't get it.  Ed has explicitly asked folks on the list to do
precisely that - ask the MP questions.  So why don't you asking
him some of your "hard questions" instead of sandblasting Ed?

Ask him the questions.

Give him a chance to add something new and cross-checkable, or
trip himself up.

Let's see what comes of it.

-Brian C.








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               Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947

From: Sue and John Strickland <strick@H2Net.net>
Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2000 21:19:57 -0600
Fwd Date: Sat, 08 Apr 2000 11:08:28 -0400
Subject: Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947

 >Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2000 09:52:18 -0800
 >From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman@psln.com>
 >Subject: Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

<snip>

 >There's no need for a "private dialog" with the MP since you can
 >have it right here in the open for all to see. Ask away. What
 >questions do you have for the MP?

<snip>

Dear Ed,

Ed, here are some questions to ask the MP.

He stated, "All of the men on guard with me that morning were
MPs at the base."

1.  Does he know if any of the other MPs are still alive and
     would/could corroborate his story?

2.  Do you remember what the weather was like the night before
     you went on guard duty the next morning (the morning the
     clean up began)?

3.  What gave you the impression that the hole you saw in the
     aircraft was blown out?

3.  Did you see an alien still alive or dying from a particular
     wound? If so, please describe.

4.  When did Pappy Henderson transport the debris and dead
     and/or still alive aliens to Wright Patterson?

5.  Does he remember what Pappy said to him about who or what he
     saw at Wright Patterson?

Thanking you in advance,

Sue








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               Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947

From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2000 22:51:03 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 08 Apr 2000 11:11:44 -0400
Subject: Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947


 >Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2000 09:52:18 -0800
 >From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman@psln.com>
 >Subject: Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

<snip>

 >There's no need for a "private dialog" with the MP since you can
 >have it right here in the open for all to see. Ask away. What
 >questions do you have for the MP?


Ed,

I've only got a couple of hundred thousand questions. But here
are some starters.

1) Who was the MPs direct supervisor or commander at Roswell?

No waffling and no easy answers like base commander Blanchard.
Who gave your MP his direct orders on a daily basis, UFO or
otherwise?

2) Have him name two, no, make that three, of his fellow MPs.

3) Ask him to name some of the medical officers present at Roswell
    at that time. I'll accept any name except the ones already
    published. He should have the inside info.

It's because of such utterly unsubstantiated rubbish as this
that I consider, on the average about two or three times a week,
leaving the field altogether.

Dennis









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               Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947

From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2000 23:37:49 -0400 (EDT)
Fwd Date: Sat, 08 Apr 2000 11:13:37 -0400
Subject: Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947


 >From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman@psln.com>
 >Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2000 09:52:18 -0800
 >Fwd Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2000 17:21:42 -0400
 >Subject: Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947

<snip>

 >There's no need for a "private dialog" with the MP since you can
 >have it right here in the open for all to see. Ask away. What
 >questions do you have for the MP?

<snip>

 >That's why he wants to answer a few questions. He'd like to
 >prove that he is who he says he is but not give out his name.

Ed and List:

OK, here goes -

1)  What was the man's unit while at Roswell?  Where did he
work?  Can he describe the location of his barracks?  Where did
he eat his meals?  What was his rank?  Who was his CO?  How many
friends can he name who were also in his unit?

2)  What was his MOS?  Where did he receive his advanced
training?  What weapons was he qualified with?  What weapons was
he issued while on duty at Roswell?

3)  Would he be willing to sign the required form from the
national archives that will allow you to obtain including his
duty postings?  If his name and identifying information is
removed, will he allow this information to be posted to this
List?

Maybe others can add to this list.  But from my military
experience, these are the sorts of things which stick with me,
and are not easy to forget.  Of course, this man is older than I
am.  But these things are easy to check against the testimony of
others and the research of others and documents.

Clear skies,

Bob Young








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               Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947

From: ed gehrman <egehrman@psln.com>
Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2000 23:11:49 -0800
Fwd Date: Sat, 08 Apr 2000 11:15:25 -0400
Subject: Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947


 >Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2000 21:05:55 -0400
 >To: Steven W. Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
 >Subject: Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>


 >>There's no need for a "private dialog" with the MP since you can
 >>have it right here in the open for all to see. Ask away. What
 >>questions do you have for the MP?

Ed-

 >If you cannot see the silliness of that statement, then there's
 >nothing more to be said about the subject.

Steven,

We've been at this for a long time. Why be so obtuse? What's your
point?

The MP is willing to answer your questions. What could be more
direct than that?

What would you like to say to the MP? He's a real person. Ask
away. Show me how to question a witness.

Ed








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               Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947

From: Michel M. Deschamps <ufoman@ican.net>
Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2000 18:06:16 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 08 Apr 2000 11:19:07 -0400
Subject: Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947


 >>Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2000 18:40:49 -0800
 >>From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman@psln.com>
 >>Subject: Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2000 21:02:29 -0400 (EDT)
 >To: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
 >Subject: Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

 ><Snip>

 >>depending on when he
 >>got out of the service, he would have likely referred to DOD as
 >>DOD because thats what its been for the last 53 years and likely
 >>was the "official organization" when he got out of the service.

 >Robert,

 >He clearly remembers that it was the DOD who told him to keep
 >quiet. Two men in suits; the CO wasn't there. He had never heard
 >of the DOD before and therefore it stuck in his mind.

 >The AA footage containers had DOD seals (dated july 30 ) or
 >maybe a better term would be stamps on them. This has been
 >confirmed as far as I know.

 >You can characterize this information any way you want but the
 >AA is an historic document and should be treated as such.

 >As I've repeated so many times, there is not one shred of proof
 >that the AA is a fake. All the so-called evidence against it has
 >turned out to be red herrings, disinformation, and ridicule.

 >There is a connection between the AA debris, the Fort Worth
 >debris, and the MP's story.

 >The DOD should be the least of our concerns, although
 >interesting.

 >Don't you think Roswell could have been a test-run, their first
 >BIG challenge? Ed


Ed,

You and I seem to be the only ones to _believe_ that the AA is
real or may be real. I've often said, as you did, that it hasn't
been proven (to my satisfaction, anyway) that the film is a
fake.

The alleged hoaxer(s) would have come out by now, knowing full
well that they've succeeded in fooling everybody. These hoaxers,
if they existed, would have headed straight into the arms of
Special Effects expert Stan Winston and get employment on the
spot!

People who'd go to such lengths to fake something as elaborate
as this are looking for some kind of recognition. Where are
they? I haven't seen anybody come out and say "we faked it and
this is how it was done". It is easy for special effects
experts to _superficially_ reproduce an AA film, or anything
else for that matter, but it is also _easy_ to reproduce a $20
bill.

Until I see documentation on how this was achieved, and the
hoaxers have come clean, I won't believe it is a fake just
because someone says so. Saying so does not constitute proof;
it's just somebody's opinion.

I am 200% sure that the AA film is real. If it isn't, I want to
see how it was done and I want to meet the hoaxers in person.
And if it is ever proven, to my satisfaction, that it is a fake,
then I'll be the first one to recant my words and admit that I
was fooled too.

Proof is hard to come by, but it isn't impossible to come by.

Michel M. Deschamps
Sudbury, Ontario, Canada







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                    Re: Voyager Newsletter - Issue No. 10

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 08 Apr 2000 04:26:57 -0400 (EDT)
Fwd Date: Sat, 08 Apr 2000 11:22:22 -0400
Subject: Re: Voyager Newsletter - Issue No. 10


 >Date: Sat, 08 Apr 2000 01:47:27 +0100
 >From: James Easton <voyager@ukonline.co.uk>
 >Subject: Voyager Newsletter - Issue No. 10
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>


 >                 Voyager Newsletter - Issue No. 10


 >CONTENTS

 >1. Significant New Evidence Questions Foremost 'Flying Saucer'
 >    Sighting.

 >2. Aliens Killed My Dog and Made Me Poor - Send Money.

 >3. Introspection.

 >4. The Alien Autopsy and Some Intriguing Connections.

 >5. Lost and Found One ET Spaceship - Contact the Weather
 >    Bureau.

 >6. Ever Decreasing Circles.

<snip>

 >If there's a theme to this newsletter, perhaps it's that the
 >most conspicuous clues to solving any mystery should be
 >recognised and never dismissed as too obvious. Otherwise, what
 >happens when we do come across simple, if surprisingly mundane,
 >explanations or outright hoaxes.

 >                          O0O~O0O~O0O~O0O

 >James Easton,
 >Editor.

Dear James, EBK, Listers et Al ...

"In order to deal in this game, you got to make the Queen
disappear. It's done with a flick of the wrist. But, what's a
sweetheart like you, doing in a dump like this?"

Making more Pelican poop, more "Knock, knock, knockin' on
Hopkins' Door," more poop in this mail than you can find in a
pile of dung after an elephant party.

Mental masturbation with a hint of Gripple.

Jim Mortellaro









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                       Audio OnLine - 01 - 04-08-2000

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>
Date: Sat, 08 Apr 2000 12:25:40 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 08 Apr 2000 12:25:40 -0400
Subject: Audio OnLine - 01 - 04-08-2000


Sun 4-09 - Scott Miller: Shadow Craft: A World of Secret Flight
            Strange Days... Indeed - 21:00 Eastern
            http://cfrb.com/cfrb.asx

Mon 4-10 - Stanton Friedman: ETs At The Millennium
            Jeff Rense - 19:00 Pacific
            http://playlist.broadcast.com/makeram.asp?id=234623

Tue 4-11 - Peter Davenport: National UFO Reporting Center
            Jeff Rense - 19:00 Pacific
            http://playlist.broadcast.com/makeram.asp?id=234623

Thu 4-12 - James Oberg
            Art Bell - 22:00 Pacific
            http://artbell.com/audio.html









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                           Re: Voyager Newsletter

From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 08 Apr 2000 14:40:35 -0400 (EDT)
Fwd Date: Sat, 08 Apr 2000 22:40:05 -0400
Subject: Re: Voyager Newsletter


 >From: James Easton <voyager@ukonline.co.uk>
 >Date: Sat, 08 Apr 2000 01:47:27 +0100
 >Fwd Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2000 22:25:57 -0400
 >Subject: Voyager Newsletter - Issue No. 10


 >Where we really need to re-write the Roswell 'flying saucer'
 >legend [what, again...] and seemingly our understanding of
 >history, is the assertion that this new witness was debriefed by
 >the 'Department of Defense'.

 >No mistake, apparently, as "He clearly remembers that it was the
 >DOD who told him to keep quiet. Two men in suits; the CO wasn't
 >there. He had never heard of the DOD before and therefore it
 >stuck in his mind".

 >It's unlikely anyone had heard about the Department of Defense
 >in early July, 1947, as it's forerunner, the National Military
 >Establishment didn't come into existence until 26 July, 1947 and
 >that wasn't redesignated as the Department of Defense until
 >August, 1949...

While technically the last paragraph is correct (and without an
opinion as to the veracity of this new "witness"), the clunkily
named "National Military Establishment" was informally referred
to both before and after its formation as the "Defense
Department" (and variations thereof such as "department of
defense" and "Department of National Defense") by no less than
Harry Truman himself.

In his memoirs, Volume Two, Years of Trial and Hope, Chapter 4,
Truman outlines the history  leading up to the DOD during and
following WWII.  Truman's concerns about needless and wasteful
duplication of efforts between military services dated back to
when he was in the Senate:

"I had long believed that a co-ordinated defense organization
was an absolute necessity....  As a member of the Appropriations
and Military Affairs Committees of the Senate and as chairman of
the Special Committee to Investigate the National Defense
Program, I was certain that unless something could be done to
co-ordinate the activities of the Army and the Navy we would
finally end up with two ****departments of defense**** and
eventually three when the Air Force succeeded in obtaining its
special committee in the House and Senate."

[Three paragraphs later]  "It was my opinion that the Commander
in Chief ought to have a co-ordinated and co-operative
****defense department**** that would work in peace and in war.
Most field commanders who had experience in World War II ....
were for a unified ****defense department****"

As President, Truman's original proposal for unification of the
armed services was submitted in December 1945, with the unified
command to be called the ****"Department of National
Defense."**** [which he then mentions at least four times]

With heavy opposition from the Navy, Truman submitted a revised
unification plan in January 1947 which "upon amendment and
passage, was to become the National Security Act of 1947.  The
bill, as finally passed on July 25 [and signed the next day by
Truman], was not as strong as the original proposal sent to
Congress...."

Truman goes on to describe the organization of the "National
Military Establishment," then writes, "I appointed James V.
Forrestal as our first Secretary of Defense, and on September
17, 1947, he was sworn in."

(Next paragraph)("....His chief problem was that of defining
specific roles and missions of each branch of the service and in
determining budgetary allocations to carry out  those functions.
After a series of conferences within the ****Defense
Department**** ...."

(Truman also points out in this chapter that under the National
Security Act, "For the first time the Joint Chiefs of Staff was
recognized by law."

What's the point here?  Everybody referred to them informally as
the "Joint Chiefs of Staff" prior to this even though officially
there was no such outfit.)

Could the "witness" have been questioned by men in plain clothes
saying they were from the "Defense Department" or "Department of
Defense."  Yes, it's conceivable.  Harry Truman seemed to often
refer to the still existing "War Department" as the "defense
department."  He proposed naming it the "Department of National
Defense" clear back in 1945, and even after it became the
"National Military Establishment," he was still referring to it
informally as the "Defense Department" before it officially
became the Department of Defense in 1949.

The other statements of the alleged witness should not be
dismissed out-of-hand because of this.  If he's a fraud  and was
not stationed at Roswell as he claims, he'll soon trip himself
up when more nitty-gritty questions are directed at him.


David Rudiak







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                          Re: Alfred's Odd Ode #343

From: Alfred Lehmberg <Lehmberg@snowhill.com>
Date: Sat, 08 Apr 2000 13:18:22 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 08 Apr 2000 22:52:31 -0400
Subject: Re: Alfred's Odd Ode #343


Apology to MW #343 (For April 8, 2000)

Art Bell is like Von Daniken with the treble turned way up. I
mean that in a good way;  let me pour this in your cup. He drags
the light, reluctantly, to places it won't go because some are
threatening ridicule -- so looking's OUT, you know? Yes, the
facts aren't checked out right, most are premature. Some's half
backed innuendo, and can pander to ones fear. It wanders into
fantasy, and it wants to *rock* you first, but where else would
we hear it when we have that kind of, righteous, thirst?

There's reason to be thirsty, and one does the best one can. One
hears some *stuff* one just won't find in mainstreams,
understand? There's reason to be thirsty, when decisions, out of
sight, so profoundly disrespect us as we fight that daily fight.
There's reason to be thirsty when one sees without the scales,
and our "population problem" is *addressed* by building jails!?!
There's reason to be thirsty when the world makes less sense,
and one can't see to either side to come down off a swaying
fence.

There's reason to be thirsty as the cosmos flash and glow with
all the special portents of the stuff we'd like to know. The
mainstream just won't touch the stuff -- keeps its worried
tongue in cheek, and shivers in its ermine boots at the
whispers, hints, or leaks. Foundations are yet crumbling. The
money's running scared. The word is getting out along with
falsehoods they've declared! The information curve's straight
up! The content's harsh and raw! The better brains are getting
out to float above it all. Their news is predigested, so you
pick and choose your own, and then put together puzzles that
portend you cannot be alone.

That's why I like Von Daniken, and the higher pitched Art Bell.
These are guys who soar and cleave to burst our stifling shells.
Some argue they're responsible for all the kookish fringe. Some
argue they have murdered (!) -- think of "Heaven's Gate" and
cringe. Some argue they're ALL charlatans and in your pocket,
friend (while accepting televangelists as honored friends and
kin). But these are men who think out loud -- and know there's
something there. These are men (like one John Ford), who've
questioned, sought, and dared. These are men, and women too, who
point it out for me and you. These are folks that bring some
light we otherwise would find denied!!!

What has *science* done but hide (?) from stuff we KNOW must
haunt our skies? The evidence is startling -- clear. *Science*
hides its smirking sneer. It tries to boot the anecdotal, all
the photographic -- totaled; all the history is deterred , and
what we're left's the *bag* we learn. Read forbidden books, my
friend, and come to know or comprehend that there's a lot to see
besides what some might stifle, lose, or hide. *Science* wallows
in a trough and Art Bell pisses folks, yes, off, but I'm
indebted to the clan that asks disturbing questions, man! They
stretch our limits, walk the brink , make us ponder, watch and
think . . .Friend, we NEED those frontiers WIDE if we expect to
soar and fly!

I would have my news, yes, pilfered, but true to life, pristine
-- unfiltered. I'm offended at the pap the mainstream feeds me
lap for lap. I'll get my news, one might contend, from Bell and
Howe, or Rense, my friend. These are people with the guts to
look beyond, dismissed as nuts (?), but with the access to that
*edge* that some deny, dismiss, and hedge!!!

Bell does not deserve the MUD that's slung around -- such
*vicious* crud. Stephens, Oates, and like detractors don't
disclose the facts! They're CANCER! All they do is heap
discredit, proclaiming truth because they *said* it, shilling
for their own dark ends a status quo that they pretend.  Toe to
toe, Art made HIS case while all the rest project disgrace.
Cheapshot artists whine and pule to demonstrate that they're the
fools, but Bell must pay to move that freight as other items
fill his plate. "Other items" undersells . . . his situation's
truly hell.

Perhaps it 's that that drove him under, or calling Y2K HIS
blunder, when (perhaps) it's HIS attention kept the *focus* on
that mission? Non addressed, it was a BASTARD.  Did he help
AVERT disaster? Very few proclaimed concern, and from these few,
of it, we learned. From Art Bell we'd get a taste of what we
might then hear too late. He exposed the programs, Jack, that
haunt those shadows queer and black. He allowed a venue, friend,
for different thinking some pretend is specious nonsense made to
pry . . . the dollars from your pocket -- lies! Sure and all
it's mostly bogus, but *enough* is brought in focus --
justifying the alarm that MIGHT come up; there's little harm.
The harm that's found is secrets used to disrespect, yes, me and
you, so let Art be, and I'll decry, for me, what's worst -- but
I'LL decide!

Lehmberg@snowhill.com

Excuse the hyperbole, but compared to his unethically noisy and
criminally unimaginative detractors, Art Bell is a towering
shrine to inspired ethics and incisive accuracy.

Restore John Ford

--
~~~~
EXPLORE Alfred Lehmberg's Alien View" at his Fortunecity URL.
http://www.alienview.com
                  **Updated All the TIME**
http://www.fortunecity.com/roswell/witches/237/lehmberg.html

JOHN FORD RESTORATION FUND -- John will be released eventually.
He'll need a tax free cash stake to get on his feet. Let's put
one together for him; the bigger it is -- the more attention
he gets. It could have been you. E-mail for detail.
$350.00 pledged -- $200.00 collected!

"I cleave the heavens, and soar to the infinite. What others see from
afar, I leave far behind me." - Giordano Bruno, burned at a
skepti-feebroid stake.








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   Apr > Apr 9

               Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947

From: Steven W. Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
Date: Sat, 08 Apr 2000 17:46:40 -0400
Fwd Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2000 08:36:34 -0400
Subject: Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947


 >Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2000 23:11:49 -0800
 >From: ed gehrman <egehrman@psln.com>
 >Subject: Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2000 21:05:55 -0400
 >>To: Steven W. Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
 >>Subject: Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >Steven,

 >We've been at this for a long time. Why be so obtuse? What's your
 >point?

 >The MP is willing to answer your questions. What could be more
 >direct than that?

 >What would you like to say to the MP? He's a real person. Ask
 >away. Show me how to question a witness.

 >Ed

Ed-

If I had a witness contact me with information that could lead
to breakthrough in relation to the Roswell mystery, I would do
my best to make sure that his story was investigated by one of
the specialists in the field and documented carefully so that it
wouldn't become twisted by the re-telling and lost to future
generations.

That you would presume that this methodology would lead to the
acceptable gathering of evidence is somthing that I find
amazing.  This is especially true in that you believe that this
should take place in a public forum.

We have indeed been at this a long time, and you are fully aware
that I'm not one of those to have jumped on the bandwagon in
claiming that the Alien Autopsy "film" has been _proven_ to be a
hoax and/or a fraud.

However, I fully acknowledge that the entire story surrounding
the AA "film" hopelessly mired in confusion and those who have
the answers to the riddle have chosen to keep those answers to
themselves.

IMO the evidence that it represents is nil at this point, and
another military witness who supports the "film" and yet refuses
to come forward merely serves to confuse the matter further.

BTW, I say "another" because several other researchers have been
contacted by former military personnel who appear to support the
AA "film" have come forward previously.  However, all refused to
have their names used and none provided a shred of information
that could checked.

Quite honestly, I have better things to do with my limited time
than to pursue this dead end.

I also happen to work with a number of people that take ufology
very seriously, and for them a major goal is to establish some
sort of credibility for the research that is involved.

I hope that I may be proven wrong and that the MP will provide
us with a key piece of information that can be checked and
verified.  That could begin a paradigm shift in mankind's view
of its place in the universe.  But I fear that this will become
yet another easy target for CISCOP and others to show how
foolish those "believers" are.

The long awaited "Best Available Evidence" which had been
distributed to a limited group of those in the media, government
and business, is soon to be published, and 'The UFO Evidence
II', which is an update to NICAP's landmark 1964 release, will
follow soon after.

In addition, efforts are also underway to publish the French
COMETA report in English, but that is still in early
discussions.

One can only hope that this evidence gathering process you have
begun here doesn't impact the acceptance of the evidence and
information presented in these publications.

I think I'm agreeing with Dennis Stacy when I say there are
times when I find this all very frustrating.

Steve







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   Apr > Apr 9

                  Arnold's Sighting And Ufology's First Law

From: Jan Aldrich <jan@cyberzone.net>
Date: Sat, 08 Apr 2000 18:24:54 -0400
Fwd Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2000 08:43:36 -0400
Subject: Arnold's Sighting And Ufology's First Law


Here is posting from some weeks ago on Project 1947 list. I
think it applies pretty well to Kottmeyer and Easton.

----------------------------------------------------------------

Before everyone gets all wrapped around the axle on this latest
Arnold request I suggest everyone read:

http://www.project1947.com/fig/ka.htm

It is obvious from the postings here that most have not read
this!

There are problems with most explanations recently offered here
and elsewhere for Arnold's sighting.  Pelicans and other birds
can only fly so fast.   If you the look at the angular distance
and the top speed of the pelicans can reach, the pelicans had to
be very close and Arnold should have overhauled them.

If the objects were mirages then the atmospheric conditions
throughout a huge part of the atmosphere at different levels and
through wide changes of azimuth were constant, but only allowed
this one mirage to travel in an apparent near linear path.  I'll
tell you what, without mentioning UFOs, get an atmospheric
scientist to agree to this.  No, this only works with UFOs
because to explain pesky UFOs we can suspend scientific
knowledge just like ET believers suspend belief.

If the Arnold objects were meteors, then they were miles away at
high altitude.  Then, to get this round peg into a square hole
you have to ignore the fact that Arnold told McDonald that some
of the objects went in front of Mt. Adams.   No problem for
people without intellectual honesty!  Just ignore that!

Facts, facts, I don-need no steenkin' facts!  I have a great
explanation!

Perhaps, Arnold was incorrect about the objects going in front
of anything. However, it would seem that truth telling would
dictate that you mention that Arnold did say that the things
went in front of Mt. Adams, even if you believed that Arnold was
mistaken or his claim was dubious, or a th rid possibility
McDonald got it wrong.

Valle tried to posit some laws of ufology.  A law in science
deals with something which has always observed to be true.  None
of Valle's laws worked; there were always exceptions.

Here is the real First Law of Ufology:

"Explanations for UFOs override all facts to the contrary."

Any contradictory facts in a UFO account can be completely
ignored if it gets in the way of a good explanation.  (The
explanation is irrelevant, ET spaceships, ball lightning, Capt
Midnight's secret squadron of flying pancakes. Just don't
mention anything that conflicts with the explanation.)

Of course, we get this in UFO history also.  Science, History,
this law applies across all "disciplines" where UFOs are
involved.

End
__________________

In the 28 June 1947 Boise Statesman we find these little gems:

See Outline

     But Arnold, who returned Friday to his home on the bench
     above Bradley airport, said he saw outlined against the snow
     on Mt. Rainier a single-file line of flying objects....

Coming On Line

     Arnold said when he first saw the object, they were coming
     in a line around Mt. Rainier from the north.  As he saw them
     against the snow of the mountain, and saw the sun reflecting
     individually from the objects, he said he thought they were
     jet aircraft.....

_______________________________________________

Arnold used a ridge to measure the approximate distance between
the objects. McDonald mentioned that to see the objects go near
the top of the ridge and than to use the ridge as a reference
point Arnold's altitude would have much lower than he had
stated.  Also, McDonald indicated that Pyramid Peak was also
much too low to have the object go behind it.  Questioning
Arnold on this, Arnold said this was possible.  So we are left
with E-K idea that Arnold was mistaken as to where he was
horizontally.  Or McDonald who thought Arnold might have been
mistaken in the vertical.

I am unimpressed about what mountain climbers or park rangers
say about how peaks appear.  Unless they do a lot of flying,
their opinions and perceptions based on map reading and
observations from the ground have nothing to do with how these
things appear from the air.

Jan Aldrich
Project 1947
http://www.project1947.com/
P. O. Box 391
Canterbury, CT 06331, USA
(860) 546-9135








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   Apr > Apr 9

               Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947

From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman@psln.com>
Date: Sat, 08 Apr 2000 14:58:20 -0800
Fwd Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2000 09:05:04 -0400
Subject: Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947


[Ed's message below is posted the way it came in - frankly,
  I don't have the time or inclination to edit it. Ed's
  story contains, as far as I'm concerned, nothing that
  contributes to our knowledge of the 1947 events.

  If the so-called MP's' responses below are an indication of
  what is to come, then, despite Ed's protestations, this
  thread will be terminated on this forum.

   Ed, you are not helping your cause by posting the mess
   below.--ebk]

___________

Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2000 21:19:57 -0600
From: Sue and John Strickland <strick@H2Net.net>
Subject: Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947
To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>




The MP answers questions:


  I am not going to answer some of those questions like who was with me
at the site, what type guns I had and things of that nature.They still
might have family's around and I don't want to drag anyone into this
but me.They are getting out of hand with questions like what type
guns, etc. I have given you some very important answers to the crash
as we talked about that will be proof of what happened such as the
color of the disc. Only the people still alive will know these facts.
So, don't let them get you down Ed. You have some major facts to
present to the public now. I am glad to answer your questions below.
As far as what did Pappy see at WP, only the boxes (crates) taken off
the plane, same as he saw them put on at the base.He also saw the
various parts of the crash and some of the bodies, but that was in
Roswell.
John




 >Questions from Bob Young:
 >1)  What was the man's unit while at Roswell?  Where did he
 >work?  Can he describe the location of his barracks?  Where did
 >he eat his meals?  What was his rank?  Who was his CO?  How many
 >friends can he name who were also in his unit?

WHERE DID I WORK???? I WAS AN MP, I WAS STATIONED ALL OVER THE BASE.>
WE HAD MEALS IN THE MESS HALL (where else?)

 >2)  What was his MOS?  Where did he receive his advanced
 >training?  What weapons was he qualified with?  What weapons was
 >he issued while on duty at Roswell?
 >
 >3)  Would he be willing to sign the required form from the
 >national archives that will allow you to obtain including his
 >duty postings?  If his name and identifying information is
 >removed, will he allow this information to be posted to this
 >List?
 >
 >Questions from D Stacy
 >
 >1) Who was the MPs direct supervisor or commander at Roswell?
 >
 >No waffling and no easy answers like base commander Blanchard.
 >Who gave your MP his direct orders on a daily basis, UFO or
 >otherwise?
 >
 >2) Have him name two, no, make that three, of his fellow MPs.
 >
 >3) Ask him to name some of the medical officers present at Roswell
 >     at that time. I'll accept any name except the ones already
 >     published. He should have the inside info.
 >THIS GUY IS JUST TOO MUCH.



 >Questions from Sue
 >1.  Does he know if any of the other MPs are still alive and
 >      would/could corroborate his story?
 >I DON'T KNOW IF ANYONE IS STILL ALIVE.
 >2.  Do you remember what the weather was like the night before
 >      you went on guard duty the next morning (the morning the
 >      clean up began)?
 >THE WEATHER WAS VERY HOT AND HUMID, ALSO SOME THUNDERSTORMS. I BELIVE THAT
 >LIGHTING HIT THE DISC, BUT THAT'S MY OPINION.
 >3.  What gave you the impression that the hole you saw in the
 >      aircraft was blown out?
 >I COULD SEE THAT THE AREA WAS BLOWN OUT, NOT IN
 >3.  Did you see an alien still alive or dying from a particular
 >      wound? If so, please describe.
 >THE ONE I SAW LOOKED TO BE DEAD, IT DID NOT MOVE AT ALL.
 >4.  When did Pappy Henderson transport the debris and dead
 >      and/or still alive aliens to Wright Patterson?
 >IF I REMEMBER RIGHT, IT WAS JULY 5TH, POSSIBLY 6TH
 >5.  Does he remember what Pappy said to him about who or what he
 >      saw at Wright Patterson?
I SENT YOU THE ANSWER IN THE LAST EMAIL.







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               Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947

From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman@psln.com>
Date: Sat, 08 Apr 2000 15:23:14 -0800
Fwd Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2000 09:07:55 -0400
Subject: Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947


To list:

An MP's story  Part 2


My god! These people sure jump on some one fast. None of these
people happen to be there in July 1947. I'm sure that other
bases had to be involved as Mr.Friedman says. The situation was
this. The other people at the crash site guarding this thing
where not introduced to each other. I can tell you that the
Frank Kaufman's are only retelling hear say.. I've heard him
talk on TV and the site if I remember correctly is not the same
as the Plains.

Some of these people have something to say about everything. I'd
hate to be in court with some of them. One or two seemed to
really be interested in what I have to say and that's good.
Don't let them get you down, they don't know ALL of the facts.
Only you and I and hopefully a few others out there still with
us. I get so upset when I think that the government has kept
this thing hidden for so long now. Of course I could understand
it years ago, that it was better to keep it quiet, but after 50
plus years, I think it's time to tell the public. I must say
that I do think there is more to this whole situation that we
can possibly understand and maybe that's why they have never
come out with the truth. It makes you wonder.

A little about me. After I got out of the service, I started to
work for a police force. Part time at first, driving a truck the
other times, then going full time with the police force after
about a year. I married in 1950, had 2 great kids, one boy, one
girl. My daughter was killed in an auto accident in 1972. I
don't have to tell you, it broke my heart. I think I told you,
that I never made mention of any of the events in Roswell to
anyone until the 50th anniversary. Then I started thinking that
I'm pretty old now and thought that my son should know the
story.

The first time I told him, he laughed, thought I was making up a
joke I guess. But, as I started to tell him about the details,
the disc and creatures, he was shocked. I remember the big flap
when the UFO's flew over the capitol. I thought that then maybe
we would get the story. As you know, we didn't. So, all these
years, I have never spoken to anyone about the 47 crash, never
even told my wife. I thought it my duty to my country to not say
a word and I did just that for 50 some years.

When I got back to the base and the guys from Washington talked
to me. They asked me to keep quiet about what I had seen for the
good of the country. I am sure the guys told me DOD. Because at
that time I had never heard of it. You�re correct in saying that
the "official" DOD was made public after the crash. I had to
stop and think for a minute after reading what Stanton says, but
yes they told me DOD.

It was my son who talked me in to coming to you and telling what
I saw. We thought that here is a person who is being trashed
like this so we thought we should contact you and try and help.
No, there was nothing in years past that would have anyone say
that I said or did things weird. I kept a pretty normal life all
these long years. I always got along with my friends, I had a
good life.

Being out in the boondocks like that, you have nothing to really give
you an idea of reference.  I remember the crash being loaded onto the
flatbed in the early hours of the morning, say about 2 or 3 am. As
daylight came, we went back to the base. Others remained in the area,
I assume to do more clean up detail. Pappy told me as the men covered
the area and they had been watched to make sure they didn't take
anything and pocket it.

No, I don't have any contact with any of the men. I lost any
contact after I got out. I'm sorry, but I've been trying to
remember how many men had been at the base, but can't recall.
I'll keep trying to remember. I don't have a yearbook, that was
lost years ago. As far as a time line, here goes.

I got a call around 11 pm or so that night to report for
emergency detail. We got into a jeep and followed several
others, can't recall any names. We drove for about 2 and a half
to appox 2:45 minutes, out in the boondocks. It was pitch black
all the way there, except for the jeep head lights.  We didn't
drive through any large towns at all.  I was only at the base
for about 4 or 5 months when this happened and I knew nothing of
the area. Trying to remember the speed on the normal road, I
would say about 40-45, then very slow on the area off the roads.
When we went off the main roads there was no paved sections,
just dirt,  to get to the site. ( I believe they drove west on
#70, then west on #380 {that is where he would have seen signs
to Socorro} then they would have turned south at or near
Carrizozo onto #54 which would have been dirt at that time.
This puts them somewhere in the White Mt. Wilderness and MJ12
country.  Ed)

When we came back out to return to the base, again we traveled
through no towns. We just followed the guy in the first jeep and
we were not allowed to ask ANY questions. Back in 1947, when
they told you to do something it was "Yes Sir" and that was it.
I do remember highway 70 and that's about it. 380 rings a bell,
but I can't say for sure now if we took it that night. I'm
sorry, but the roads are very fuzzy now because of so many years
and I was not familiar with New Mexico at all.


  When we finally got there, first thing I noticed was all the flood
lights on and I was wondering what the hell is going on.  As soon as
we pulled up, Col. Blanchard told us to guard the area. I could see
the craft as I told you before and only seconds later I saw the
creature with the 6 fingers. I would say that I got a good look at
them for about 4 or 5 minutes and I could also see things out of the
corner of my eye. We had been ordered to stand facing away from the
craft and make sure no one came near it. But in those few minutes I
was facing the craft and creature... it has been a sight that I will
never forget

I won't go into detail because I have told you all of the crash area
information the other day. When the truck came in with the crane, we
had to move along side to make way. Then I got another look at the
craft. The entire time I had been there was about 3 hours. Then we
headed back to base. The dates were July 3rd and 4th for sure, not May
or June. It was hot as hell in New Mexico all summer.

I have seen the entire AA video, thanks to my son. The debris
parts I would say are from inside the craft. I didn't see any
marking on the outside.  Also I forgot to mention that Pappy
said that he heard rumors that the disc or disc's had been
spotted a day or so before the crash, so that might account for
the Wilmonts sighting. Something was going on that brought these
creatures here for God knows how long before we found them.

As far as other crash sites. I know from talking to Pappy, that
the ONLY other area the AAF knew about was the Foster ranch.

I knew Jesse, but only to salute and Cavitt only  to see on
base; most of the men didn't like him. He was cocky from what I
was told. I never got near the hanger where they took the craft.
We all knew about the press release (July 8th Flying Disk), but
as soon as the balloon story hit, the people not knowing
anything just laughed it off. From what Pappy told me, not all
of the men at the hanger had been MPs. He was amazed that
privates also had been given that detail. But they only stood
outside the hanger.  The  hanger with the crash parts and bodies
was Hanger 84,  I believe. I know this has something to do with
the event, but I don't think many people remember the number,
but I may be wrong.

Also we had fans going all the time during the summer and the CO would
always have a fit because we ran up the electric bill.  It does get
VERY HOT in Roswell in the summertime!  Another  major problem in the
barracks was bugs, plenty of them all the time.  I hope this helps.







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               Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947

From: William Sawers <wsawers@ihug.co.nz>
Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2000 11:39:35 +1200
Fwd Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2000 09:13:24 -0400
Subject: Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947


From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>
To: <02 - UFO UpDates Subscribers :;>
Sent: Saturday, April 08, 2000 9:30 AM
Subject: UFO UpDate: Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947


 > Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2000 13:32:05 -0500
 > From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net>
 > Subject: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947
 > To: updates@sympatico.ca
 >
 >
 > >From: Georgina Bruni
 > >Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2000 14:00:36 +0100
 > >Fwd Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2000 13:06:12 -0400
 > >Subject: Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947
 >
 > >>Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2000 21:33:30 -0500
 > >>From: Roger Evans
 > >>Subject: Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947
 > >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto
 >
 > Previously I wrote:
 >
 > >>Why don't you treat _us_ with respect, Ed? We're not stupid. How
 > >>can you have any "facts" (reported or otherwise) if you still
 > >>don't know if this guy is on the level? You have no facts; only
 > >>what you choose to believe about someone you've never met.
 >
 > Georgina replied:
 >
 > >Roger, I agree that there needs to be a great deal more proof
 > >regarding the MP story but your approach to this is the kind of
 > >attitude that puts off witnesses in the first place.
 >
 > <snip>
 >
 > >Don't be too hard on Ed. I think it was jolly decent of him to
 > >share that information with other researchers who might be
 > >able to check further >details.
 >
 > Hi, Georgina!
 >
 > Yes, jolly decent... and convenient! Ed was warned by EBK that
 > he wouldn't post anything else about AA unless there was
 > something "new". Then out of the blue we have a 'new' inside
 > informant for Roswell which just happens to tell Ed to "not give
 > up on AA" and that the alien in AA is "exactly like the one he
 > saw".
 >
 > Please.

<snip>

Here we are again, back on the roller-coaster ride of character
assasination, and ridicule, pouring huge dollops on to anything
or anyone that doesn't agree with the hieracy.

Because someone believes that the AA is something _more_ than a
hoax (which is not saying it's exactly what is portrayed) Is
everything he does from now on going to be treated with derision
and snide innuendo?

Just think of the consequences if this MP _is_ the genuine
article and members of our list have ridiculed the man he chose
to (for whatever reason, who knows... yet?)

The MP could lose all faith, thinks no one will handle his story
with dignity or even open-mindedness and he flees back into the
security of annonimity. We are a _minority_... and like most
minorities there is always going to be flak.

We should be trying to question our own without the derogatory,
nastiness inherent within Ufology. At the risk of exposing my
love-beads, lets give everyone a decent go so we can present
some semblance of a united front to the real enemy of truth.

I would certainly be interested in the answers offered on this,
before the MP (if real) pulls his head back into obscurity and
we _never_ know anything for sure.

Regards to All

William










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                    Re: Voyager Newsletter - Issue No. 10

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Sat, 08 Apr 2000 20:21:38 -0400
Fwd Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2000 09:19:25 -0400
Subject: Re: Voyager Newsletter - Issue No. 10


 >From: James Easton <voyager@ukonline.co.uk>
 >Date: Sat, 08 Apr 2000 01:47:27 +0100
 >Fwd Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2000 22:25:57 -0400
 >Subject: Voyager Newsletter - Issue No. 10

James wrote:


 >It must be accepted that whatever Arnold witnessed, those nine
 >objects were at least amazingly similar to a formation of AWPs.

It must also be accepted that there are major discrepancies with
the AWP hypothesis:

1)  birds do not flash so brightly that their flashes can be
seen at a distance _greater_ than they themselves can be seen,
and, in any case, do not appear like sunlight reflected on a
mirror or "arc bright"

2) there is _no_ flight path for the birds which would match
Arnold's description of where they appeared to travel, from his
perspective, using any reasonable flight path for Arnold.
(Panicking and turning northward is not a reasonable flight path
for Arnold.)

If you can prove me wrong, do it. Draw a map!

Incidently, in your "unbiased" reporting of the status of the
Arnold investigation I am surprised that you didn't at least
mention the bright flashes and the fact that there is at least
"a difficulty" in determining how Arnold and the supposed birds
could have flown in such a way that they would appear to first
be seen north of Rainier and ten cross in front of Arnold and
then be seen to travel southward, apparently past Mt. Adams.

 >This perhaps appreciably indicates what is clearly the most
 >likely resolution of Arnold's encounter, especially adding the
 >realisation that as Arnold's perception of distance was
 >manifestly mistaken, his size and speed estimates can be
 >expected to contain consequential misperceptions.

This indicates nothing like a resolution of Arnold's encounter
until you can resolve points (a) and (b) above.







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                   30th Conference on Anomalous Phenomena

From: Diane Harrison <tkbnetw@powerup.com.au>
Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2000 09:24:08 +1000
Fwd Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2000 09:35:21 -0400
Subject: 30th Conference on Anomalous Phenomena

The Keith Basterfield Network Australasia
_____

30th Conference on Anomalous Phenomena*

THE INTERNATIONAL FORTEAN ORGANIZATION (INFO) presents

FortNite '00!

Grand Ballroom, College Park Maryland Holiday Inn 10000 Baltimore
Blvd (Rt.1)-Exit 25A from
Rte.495, College Park, Maryland.

May 13, 2000

SATURDAY LECTURE PROGRAM: 10:00 AM-6:00 PM

John Anthony West, author of Serpent in the Sky and The
Traveler's Key to Ancient Egypt, Emmy Award winner of the NBC
documentary The Mystery of the Sphinx on new groundbreaking
discoveries on the Giza Plateau that further reveals the
existence and methodology of an ancient s sacred science based
on cosmic principles. A must!

Don Keating, cryptozoologist/publisher of The Monthly Bigfoot
Report and director of the Tri-State Bigfoot Study Group, will
make the case for the existence of Bigfoot in Ohio. Slides plus
his amazing video of a huge creature caught on film!

Antonio Huneeus, Chilean-American journalist, is the
International Co-ordinator for the Mutual UFO Network (MUFON),
edited the anthology A Study Guide to UFOs, Psychic and
Paranormal Phenomena in the USSR and is one of three co-authors
of the UFO Briefing Document-The Best Available Evidence. He is
also a columnist for Fate Magazine and will present a report on
the March 2000 conference on UFOs sponsored by the Chilean Air
Force and an update with slides on "International UFO Files".

Hartwig Hausdorf, German explorer of the Far East and author of
seven Books, on his latestphenomenal title, The Chinese Roswell;
UFO Encounters in the Far East from Ancient Times tothe Present
(encompasses the sacred peak of Mount Meru, the forbidden White
Pyramid of Xian, the hidden tomb of Shi Huangdi, the mysterious
stone discs of Bayan Kara Ula and more). Includes Ice Age
Nanotechnology and slides of the rarely seen pyramids of China.
Not to be missed!

Dr. Brendan Feeley is a licensed Doctor of Naturopathy who
practices classical homeopathy, ayurveda and vedic astrology. He
also holds a degree in Jungian psychology and will speak on
Jung, UFOs and Transformation.

Including:

Buffet Luncheon (12:30 PM) with vegetarian and non-vegetarian
selections, beverage and dessert***Plus the Book
Room--phenomenal Sale of Books, Periodicals and Tapes from your
favorite authors at unheard of prices! Join us at 8 PM Friday
and Saturday night for our

Networking Fortean MayBe socials in the Moosehead Lounge!

Regards Diane Harrison

Director Of The Keith Basterfield Network Australasia
Co Director of The Australian UFO Research Network
Australian Skywatch Director

~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>
THE KEITH BASTERFIELD NETWORK
(A Non-Profit Organization)

E-Mail: tkbnetw@powerup.com.au
E-mail: ufologist@powerup.com.au
http://www.powerup.com.au/~tkbnetw
http://www.InsideTheWeb.com/mbs.cgi/mb760221

ADMINISTRATION:

THE AUSTRALIAN UFO RESEARCH NETWORK
(A Non-Profit Organization)

PO Box 805
Springwood  Qld  4127
Australia
~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>
Australian UFO Research Network Hotline Number
          1800 77 22 88 Freecall
~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>
Disclaimer: The Keith Basterfield List Owners are not
responsible for the content or misuse of this list.
However, personal insults, flaming will not be tolerated.
~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>~~~~<>






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   Apr > Apr 9

                     Family Vacation Leads To Questions

From: Blair Cummins <ufoblair@hotmail.com>
Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2000 02:48:14 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2000 09:40:18 -0400
Subject: Family Vacation Leads To Questions


Greetings list -

A humorous article from the Houston Chronicle.

Source: http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/story.hts/metropolitan/516602

---

A family vacation leads to questions
By Thom Marshall
April 8, 2000, 7:58PM

The funniest question in a long time is down at the bottom, but
it won't seem funny if you just skip right down to it without
the explanation.

The reason for wanting to tell about it is the Roswell exhibit
out at Space Center Houston. Struck me as strange that
particular subject would be set up as an attraction out at the
visitor's center for the Johnson Space Center, considering the
federal government's role in JSC and in Roswell.

People who are interested in the stories about a spaceship
crashing in Roswell, N.M., back in 1947 get real frustrated
about an apparent government cover-up and officials' reluctance,
even after 53 years, to tell what really went on there.
Officials have fed the public some explanations but many of us
haven't swallowed them.

The person I talked to on the phone, who was involved in getting
the exhibit, said Space Center Houston is related to, but is not
an official branch of the Johnson Space Center. She said that
while proposals for exhibits must be approved by a board, there
were no objections to Roswell.

She said the exhibit does not focus upon the controversy of
whether an other-worldly craft actually did crash near Roswell
with some alien casualties, but looks instead "at the folklore
that has come out of the thought of alien invasions."

Mysteries in lights and skies

Before we knew this exhibit was coming to our area, the family
voted to include a stop at Roswell in our spring break
itinerary.

First we visited McDonald Observatory outside Fort Davis, a
popular place among spring break families. We went to a night
program where a young staff astronomer pointed out various
highlights in our vast heavens and provided numerous fascinating
facts about distances and time and speed and size of celestial
bodies.

Quite a large crowd gathered on the mountaintop in the cloudless
night. While we listened with our faces upturned, we marveled at
a satellite, tracking a portion of its orbit. At least, that's
what the astronomer said the little moving light was.

Next day, we went back for a guided close-up look at the big
telescopes that are so popular with so many scientists who spend
their lives searching the sky, looking for answers, seeking
explanations.

That night we drove to nearby Marfa to see the mystery lights.
Actually, you drive several miles outside Marfa to a parking
area beside the highway made especially for light watchers.
Shortly after dark, there were about 40 cars, vans and pickups
gathered there, with about 100 people standing around outside.

One fellow in his 40s assumed a role as expert, having been
there before. He showed us all which direction to look and said
the little points of light we saw were, indeed, what we'd come
for. Some of them moved, so they obviously weren't distant
campfires or ranch house windows, but they didn't move the way
car lights or airplane lights would move. People haven't figured
out what causes those lights after a couple of centuries of
trying.

Spring break with the aliens

Next day, on our way to New Mexico, I was wondering how much I
was willing to believe about UFOs, and why, with so many
powerful telescopes in the world, the issue hasn't been resolved
one way or the other. And why those lights at Marfa still are a
mystery in this age of wondrous scientific instruments?

Roswell is a pretty town, crowded with spring breakers same as
everywhere else we'd been. It has built a thriving tourist
industry around that controversial alleged UFO crash. Lots of
souvenir shops on Main Street.

I bought a bumper sticker that says: "UFO'S ARE REAL / The
Government Doesn't Exist."

It was in the busy International UFO Museum and Research Center
("The Truth Is Here") where the funny question was heard. It
came after we'd been looking awhile at the many exhibits about
the people who saw things, and what they said they saw, and how
the government put a lid on the story.

I was wondering if it was related in any way to the Cash-Landrum
case in Liberty County in 1980, when two women and one's
grandson had a UFO encounter that left them with a variety of
long-term injuries and ailments. I was also thinking about the
observatory, and about those Marfa lights.

Then this museum volunteer, a congenial older fellow, approaches
and asks: "Do you have any questions?"

Maybe you had to be there.

---

Best regards,

- Blair Cummins
ufoblair@hotmail.com









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   Apr > Apr 9

                       Yukon Fireball Mystery Endures

From: Patricia Mason <pmason@ee.net>
Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2000 07:49:22 -0400
Fwd Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2000 09:42:47 -0400
Subject: Yukon Fireball Mystery Endures


Andrei Ol�khovatov sent this to me giving me permission to post
it to the list...Pat


This article can also be found on:

http://www.whitehorsestar.com/News.lasso?r=33262

---

Yukon fireball mystery endures
by Andrei Ol�khovatov and Judy Hall


The fireball that streaked across early-morning skies from the
Yukon toward Alaska on Jan. 18 may hold not only the mysteries
of life, but other mysteries as well.

The chunks that were discovered, thought to be part of the
fireball, have been classified as carbonaceous chondrites. These
rare meteorites incorporate the building blocks of life and may
be nature�s way of transporting life around the universe. While
this in itself is spectacular, there appears to be more to the
story.

We have been researching the visual event of that morning
through interviews of eyewitnesses from the Yukon, British
Columbia and Alaska. We would like to thank all the people who
shared their accounts with us. From these accounts, we have been
able to piece together an interesting addition to the story of
the fireball.

The authors met via e-mail a few days after the fiery display.
We each had an interest in finding out just what happened that
morning and quickly decided to cooperate.

Although we are half a planet apart�connected by the Internet�we
have shared information and conjectures. The senior author lives
in Moscow, and has knowledge and training in meteor phenomena.
The junior author lives in Haines, Alaska, close to the place of
the event, and studied astronomy at Cornell University.

These attributes combined to produce fruitful cooperation� as
indeed it did! We have obtained mysterious and interesting data
that do not fit the current picture of the fireball. First, let
us summarize what has been published so far about the event.

The fireball appeared in northwestern Yukon, flew over
Whitehorse and exploded near Carcross. Satellite data put the
explosion height at 25 km and position at N 60.25 degrees, W
134.65 degrees; a few kilometres northeast of Carcross. A search
conducted soon after the event produced nothing: no meteorites,
no meteoritic dust on the snow, no impact site.

The place where the meteorite fragments were found remains a
secret. Several hints indicate they were collected south of
Tutshi Lake; several dozen kilometres south of the explosion
point.

Charlie Roots of the Geological Survey of Canada and the finder,
who prefers to remain anonymous, have a verbal agreement to keep
the place a secret until May 1.

Fortunately, the finder has an appreciation of the importance of
this find to science and so has turned over half of the
one-kilogram of material collected, to NASA for study and
testing.

Our investigation, especially eyewitness accounts given by
people in Alaska, reveal that the picture of events is more
complicated and puzzling than what is being reported. Here are
the most important results.

Many witnesses from Whitehorse reported that first they saw a
flash (or a couple of flashes) almost due south.

When they looked around, they saw the fireball above them. It
then flew rather uneventfully to the SSE without flashes and
suddenly disappeared, without a flash.

The fireball did leave a trail, well-known due to numerous
photos. We must then ask: what was the origin of this initial
and very bright flash in the south?

The next and most important mystery is strong evidence that
there was a second fireball in the area. Haines resident Fred
Gray was on the Haines Highway driving North at N 59.8 degrees
and W 136.6 degrees. From his position, Whitehorse was 133 km
away at an azimuth of 41 degrees.

The "Whitehorse-Carcross" fireball should have been see by him
to the NE-ENE very low in the sky about 11 degrees above the
horizon.

Instead, what did he see? He saw a fireball that flew almost
overhead practically through zenith (the angular height was
75-80 degrees) moving approximately west to east!

Now we must ask: which of the two fireballs was seen in Mosquito
Lake and Klukwan area? Some witnesses from there reported a
fireball trajectory also incompatible with the known
"Whitehorse-Carcross" one.

Several remarkable electromagnetic disturbances accompanied this
event as well. After the fireball passed, a suburb in western
Whitehorse was left without electricity for an hour.

Accidental coincidence? Maybe.

Also, after Gray witnessed the fireball, his VHF radio and
satellite phone would not receive or transmit for six to eight
miles as he continued north along the highway from his
observation point.

What was the origin of the sulphur smell reported from Haines
Junction and Destruction Bay, which are far from the fireball
explosion site?

Furthermore, according to the physics of meteor phenomenon, the
flash detected by satellites corresponds to fragmentation of
several dozen tons of meteoritic substance, much of which should
have fallen in the Carcross area.

Until now, nothing has been found. The only discovered fragments
were many miles away.

Finally, another fireball was seen in the very early morning of
Jan. 11. Its path, according to eyewitness accounts, included
the area between Atlin and Juneau. Where are its remnants?

That morning in January is indeed enshrouded in mystery. While
this event may answer the question of how life first came to
this planet, it also raises many questions.

We are hoping soon to know the answers.







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   Apr > Apr 9

                           Re: Voyager Newsletter

From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2000 08:54:22 -0300
Fwd Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2000 09:45:36 -0400
Subject: Re: Voyager Newsletter


 >Date: Sat, 08 Apr 2000 14:40:35 -0400 (EDT)
 >From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@aol.com>
 >Subject: Re: Voyager Newsletter
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >>From: James Easton <voyager@ukonline.co.uk>
 >>Date: Sat, 08 Apr 2000 01:47:27 +0100
 >>Fwd Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2000 22:25:57 -0400
 >>Subject: Voyager Newsletter - Issue No. 10

 >>Where we really need to re-write the Roswell 'flying saucer'
 >>legend [what, again...] and seemingly our understanding of
 >>history, is the assertion that this new witness was debriefed by
 >>the 'Department of Defense'.

 >>No mistake, apparently, as "He clearly remembers that it was the
 >>DOD who told him to keep quiet. Two men in suits; the CO wasn't
 >>there. He had never heard of the DOD before and therefore it
 >>stuck in his mind".

 >>It's unlikely anyone had heard about the Department of Defense
 >>in early July, 1947, as it's forerunner, the National Military
 >>Establishment didn't come into existence until 26 July, 1947 and
 >>that wasn't redesignated as the Department of Defense until
 >>August, 1949...

 >While technically the last paragraph is correct (and without an
 >opinion as to the veracity of this new "witness"), the clunkily
 >named "National Military Establishment" was informally referred
 >to both before and after its formation as the "Defense
 >Department" (and variations thereof such as "department of
 >defense" and "Department of National Defense") by no less than
 >Harry Truman himself.

 >In his memoirs, Volume Two, Years of Trial and Hope, Chapter 4,
 >Truman outlines the history  leading up to the DOD during and
 >following WWII.  Truman's concerns about needless and wasteful
 >duplication of efforts between military services dated back to
 >when he was in the Senate:

 >"I had long believed that a co-ordinated defense organization
 >was an absolute necessity....  As a member of the Appropriations
 >and Military Affairs Committees of the Senate and as chairman of
 >the Special Committee to Investigate the National Defense
 >Program, I was certain that unless something could be done to
 >co-ordinate the activities of the Army and the Navy we would
 >finally end up with two ****departments of defense**** and
 >eventually three when the Air Force succeeded in obtaining its
 >special committee in the House and Senate."

<snip>

Just four comments:

1. It is surely good to see people checking the details of
history as David has so persistently. There are people who were
at the Base who referred to it as Walker AFB even though the
name wasn't changed until about January 1948.

2.. Truman wasn't actually present, as he was on the High Seas
returning from Brazil on the Battleship Missouri, when Forrestal
took the oath of office because of difficulties in Italy.

3. I have previously offered and will here again offer to check
in Confidence my copy of the 1947 RAAF base yearbook if Ed will
provide the MP's name in confidence via  eMail at
fsphys@brunnet.net via Phone 506-457-0232; via fax
506-450-3832. I can then send him a copy of the page with the
picture, if it is there.

4. I somehow have missed any information as to whether or not Ed
has actually met the MP as opposed to via Email, fax, or phone.
Ed how about telling us??

Stan Friedman
communication







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   Apr > Apr 9

                AUFON VOL. 2 No.8 Mars: Planet Without A Face

From: Stefan Duncan <swduncan@worldspy.net>
Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2000 09:22:17 -0400
Fwd Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2000 10:06:52 -0400
Subject: AUFON VOL. 2 No.8  Mars: Planet Without A Face


To read this week's issue of AUFON go to:

http://www.aufon.com








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            Tonight On 'Strange Days... Indeed': L. Scott Miller

From: "Strange Days... Indeed" <sdi@cfrb.com>
Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2000 15:26:36 -0400
Fwd Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2000 15:26:36 -0400
Subject: Tonight On 'Strange Days... Indeed': L. Scott Miller

   -------------------
  /// L. Scott Miller
-------------------

Our guest, tonight, Dr. L. Scott Miller is an Associate
Professor of Aerospace Engineering and a National Institute for
Aviation Research Fellow at Wichita State University (WSU).
Scott received his Ph.D., in aerospace engineering, from Texas
A&M University in 1988 and began working at WSU the same year.
He has been involved in numerous research projects and, in
addition, worked summers at Boeing and NASA Langley Research
Center.

His professional interests include education, experimental
aerodynamics, airfoil design, rotor aerodynamics, wind energy,
and laser velocimetry.  In addition, he is a "certified airplane
nut."

Most recently he's been touring chapters of The American
Institute of Aeronautics and Astronautics, giving talks titled:
'Shadow Craft -- A World of Secret Flight'.

In those talks, Scott points out that a great deal of aircraft
development in America has taken place in secrecy.  The U-2,
SR-71 Blackbird, B-2 Spirit Bomber, and F-117 Stealth Fighter
are some now high-profile examples of once hidden efforts.  If
you believe the recent and rampant rumors, there are more secret
aircraft currently hiding in the shadows.

The existence of these rumors, at minimum, provokes the public
interest and generates lots of questions.  For example, what
goes on in 'Area 51' and what specifically has happened or might
now be happening in the secret or 'black' world?  What new
technologies and missions are associated with the rumored
planes, where are they built and based, and how many are
operational?  Is it actually possible to build a visually
stealthy airplane?  Are some of the aircraft unmanned?  Does the
hypersonic vehicle popularly called 'Aurora' really exist?
There are obviously many questions, with elusive and interesting
answers.

Over the course of the program tonight we'll discuss many of the
rumors and review publicly available evidence that suggests the
existence of secret aircraft projects.  We'll discuss the
viability of the rumors, evidence and what intrigues him about
the work that we do in our field.

Join  Scott, co-host Jonn Kares and I, along with callers
at 21:00 Eastern, as we discuss these Strange Days... Indeed on:

News Talk Radio Toronto - CFRB 1010 AM - 50,000 watts

CFRX in the 40 Metre band at 6070khz Shortwave

and the Eureka Digital Broadcast System in Toronto.

You can also listen via Media Player by opening the
player and pasting the following URL into 'File'/'Open':

http://cfrb.com/cfrb.asx

and connect ahead of time - the site gets really busy.

To call the program dial:

On-Air     [1] 416-872-1010
            1-800-561-CFRB [In Ontario]
            *TALK [local mobiles]


Errol Bruce-Knapp





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   Apr > Apr 9

                 Francis Gary Powers Jr - UFO Museum Lecture

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>
Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2000 15:35:42 -0400
Fwd Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2000 15:35:42 -0400
Subject: Francis Gary Powers Jr - UFO Museum Lecture




From: UFO UpDates - Toronto

Source: The International UFO Museum & Research Centre

http://www.iufomrc.com/lecture.htm

Lecture Series

May 13, 2000, 7 PM at the museum - Francis Gary Powers Jr, son
of _the_ Francis Gary Powers who was shot down while flying the
U-2 over Russia in 1960. Francis Jr. will report of the many UFO
sightings that resulted from the U2 flights, and will also talk
about the letter that his dad wrote about the U2 flight to
investigate a UFO in the California area. Francis Jr. has
established the Cold War Museum in VA and that web address is
www.coldwar.org

-----

ebk







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                 An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947

From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net>
Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2000 10:21:06 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2000 18:06:44 -0400
Subject: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947

 >From: William Sawers
 >Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2000 11:39:35 +1200
 >Fwd Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2000 09:13:24 -0400
 >Subject: Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947

 >>Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2000 13:32:05 -0500
 >>From: Roger Evans
 >>Subject: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947
 >>To: updates@sympatico.ca

Previously, I had written:

 >>Ed was warned by EBK that
 >>he wouldn't post anything else about AA unless there was
 >>something "new". Then out of the blue we have a 'new' inside
 >>informant for Roswell which just happens to tell Ed to "not give
 >>up on AA" and that the alien in AA is "exactly like the one he
 >>saw".

 >>Please.

William replied:

 >Here we are again, back on the roller-coaster ride of character
 >assasination, and ridicule, pouring huge dollops on to anything
 >or anyone that doesn't agree with the hieracy.

<snip>

 >I would certainly be interested in the answers offered on
this, before the MP (if real) pulls his head back into
 >obscurity and we _never_ know anything for sure.

Hi, William!

Actually, I couldn't agree with you more. If this MP exists then
it is vital that we hear what he has to say. Unfortunately we
only get to hear what ED has to say.

Is it character assassination to point that out that obvious
fact?

Of all the people that the MP could have approached to add
credibility to his story, he somehow chose the one person on
this list that common sense dictates no one would believe. Is
this the kind of clear thinking that former military men are
made of? I'm surprised we won the war. I would love to be proved
wrong.

However, considering the kind of combative answers that this MP
has so far provided, I fear this proof will be long in coming.

In my opinion this is just an attempt by Ed to get the topic of
AA back into this list for discussion.

later,

Roger







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               Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947

From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net>
Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2000 10:54:31 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2000 18:09:33 -0400
Subject: Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947


 >From: Ed Gehrman
 >Date: Sat, 08 Apr 2000 15:23:14 -0800
 >Fwd Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2000 09:07:55 -0400
 >Subject: Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947

Hello, EBK.....

The thread unwinds sooner than expected.

In the latest installment of this saga, Ed's MP stated:

 >When we finally got there, first thing I noticed was all the flood
 >lights on and I was wondering what the hell is going on.  As soon as
 >we pulled up, Col. Blanchard told us to guard the area.

However, the MP previously stated just the opposite:

 > It was dark before all the flood
 >lights had been put up, so I was able to see that glow. They
 >also put up flood lights facing out so no one could possibly see
 >the area if they had been looking from a distance.

Seems we have somewhat of a discrepancy here, Ed. On the one
hand the flood lights were already up as your MP pulled up to
the crash sight. It was, after all, the "first thing he
noticed". But in your previous version of events, the flood
lights were not yet up giving your MP an opportunity to see the
"glow" of the craft's bottom.

Can you explain this?

Also, for researchers better acquainted with policies regarding
military bases, I have a question. Was it a general practice to
put out a "yearbook" for the base? Maybe it was, but this is
something that I've never heard of. Perhaps someone else can
clarify this since the MP stated:

 >I'm sorry, but I've been trying to
 >remember how many men had been at the base, but can't recall.
 >I'll keep trying to remember. I don't have a yearbook, that was
 >lost years ago.

Info about this would be appreciated by all, I think....

Later,

Roger Evans







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               Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947

From: Brian Cuthbertson <brianc@fc.net>
Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2000 10:54:14 -0500 (CDT)
Fwd Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2000 18:11:19 -0400
Subject: Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947


In case Ed isn't following the Voyager thread, note that in it
Stan Friedman writes ...

 >Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2000 08:54:22 -0300
 >From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
 >Subject: Re: Voyager Newsletter
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >3. I have previously offered and will here again offer to check
 >in Confidence my copy of the 1947 RAAF base yearbook if Ed will
 >provide the MP's name in confidence via eMail at
 >fsphys@brunnet.net via Phone 506-457-0232; via fax
 >506-450-3832. I can then send him a copy of the page with the
 >picture, if it is there.

Ed: you really, really should do this. I think most will agree
Stan can be trusted to hold a confidence. And if he finds the
name, that'll be pretty hard to argue with.

Are you willing to try this and live with Stan's result?
If not, I don't see why anyone should give you or the MP
much credence.

-Brian C.








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   Apr > Apr 9

               Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947

From: Tim Haley <TimHaley@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2000 11:21:58 -0400 (EDT)
Fwd Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2000 18:13:39 -0400
Subject: Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947


 >Date: Sat, 08 Apr 2000 14:58:20 -0800
 >From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman@psln.com>
 >Subject: Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >[Ed's message below is posted the way it came in - frankly,
 >I don't have the time or inclination to edit it. Ed's
 >story contains, as far as I'm concerned, nothing that
 >contributes to our knowledge of the 1947 events.

 >If the so-called MP's' responses below are an indication of
 >what is to come, then, despite Ed's protestations, this
 >thread will be terminated on this forum.

 > Ed, you are not helping your cause by posting the mess
 > below.--ebk]

 >___________

 >Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2000 21:19:57 -0600
 >From: Sue and John Strickland <strick@H2Net.net>
 >Subject: Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >The MP answers questions:
 >I am not going to answer some of those questions like who was with me
 >at the site, what type guns I had and things of that nature.They still
 >might have family's around and I don't want to drag anyone into this
 >but me.They are getting out of hand with questions like what type
 >guns, etc. I have given you some very important answers to the crash
 >as we talked about that will be proof of what happened such as the
 >color of the disc. Only the people still alive will know these facts.
 >So, don't let them get you down Ed. You have some major facts to
 >present to the public now. I am glad to answer your questions below.
 >As far as what did Pappy see at WP, only the boxes (crates) taken off
 >the plane, same as he saw them put on at the base.He also saw the
 >various parts of the crash and some of the bodies, but that was in
 >Roswell.
 >John

<snip>

The MP answers to various questions posed are grouped below:

1) WHERE DID I WORK???? I WAS AN MP, I WAS STATIONED ALL OVER
    THE BASE.  WE HAD MEALS IN THE MESS HALL (where else?)

2) THIS GUY IS JUST TOO MUCH.

3) I DON'T KNOW IF ANYONE IS STILL ALIVE.

4) THE WEATHER WAS VERY HOT AND HUMID, ALSO SOME THUNDERSTORMS.
    I BELIVE THAT LIGHTING HIT THE DISC, BUT THAT'S MY OPINION.

5) I COULD SEE THAT THE AREA WAS BLOWN OUT, NOT IN

6) THE ONE I SAW LOOKED TO BE DEAD, IT DID NOT MOVE AT ALL.

7) IF I REMEMBER RIGHT, IT WAS JULY 5TH, POSSIBLY 6TH

8) I SENT YOU THE ANSWER IN THE LAST EMAIL.

Ed's post of the supposed MP's answers to legitimate and well
thought out questions is an insult to those seriously
investigating the UFO phenomenon.

I agree with Errol to end this thread NOW.

Tim Haley







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   Apr > Apr 9

               Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947

From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net>
Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2000 11:52:44 -0400
Fwd Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2000 18:15:53 -0400
Subject: Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947


 >Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2000 22:51:03 -0500
 >From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
 >Subject: Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >I've only got a couple of hundred thousand questions. But here
 >are some starters.

 >1) Who was the MPs direct supervisor or commander at Roswell?

 >No waffling and no easy answers like base commander Blanchard.
 >Who gave your MP his direct orders on a daily basis, UFO or
 >otherwise?

 >2) Have him name two, no, make that three, of his fellow MPs.

 >3) Ask him to name some of the medical officers present at
 >Roswell at that time. I'll accept any name except the ones
 >already published. He should have the inside info.

 >It's because of such utterly unsubstantiated rubbish as this
 >that I consider, on the average about two or three times a
 >week, leaving the field altogether.

 >Dennis

Dennis -- these questions show me once again why you shouldn't
leave this field. We need you. These questions will give us a
good shot at determining whether this guy is for real, even if
we don't know his name.

Greg Sandow







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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 >
   Apr > Apr 9

               Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947

From: Asgeir W. Skavhaug <asge-s@online.no>
Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2000 17:56:43 +0200
Fwd Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2000 18:17:09 -0400
Subject: Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947


 >Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2000 09:52:18 -0800
 >From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman@psln.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >Subject: Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947

<snip>

 >There's no need for a "private dialog" with the MP since you can
 >have it right here in the open for all to see. Ask away. What
 >questions do you have for the MP?

<snip>

Hello Ed:

Here are some more questions to ask the MP.

1. It was reported by nurse(s), that the creatures had 4
fingers. You just saw one creature as it was being loaded into a
truck - maybe at bad light. Fingers may be difficult to count at
some distance, and finger aren't really the first thing to
observe in an aircraft crash - is it?. So, how can you then be
so sure it had 6 fingers - as in the Santilli film - which is an
important observation, if it's true?

2. Did you see any shoes? Did you see whether it / they had six
toes as well? (It's reasonable to think that they also had six
toes....maybe?)

3. The Santilli film 'gives the indication' that the creature
being autopsied - and looking 'similar' to the creature you
'caught a glimpse of' - is 'very much' human-like, and looks (to
me) more or less like a dead human suffering from some kind of
syndrome - or it's just a dummy. (Thus it might be just a
filmed, ordinary autopsy of such a person, intended for medical
use - and really not a hoax at all; a _special_ autopsy film
falling into wrong hands - Santilli's!) In addition, it looks
like being a woman, when looking into the region of the genitals
(and we would expect to find the creature's genitals there as
well....).

What's your opinion about this, and do you think the UFO was
piloted by a woman / women, suffering from some sort of
syndrome? Travelling all the way from outer space? (OK, I admit
that _your_ creatures did wear some silvery suits at the site,
so you actually didn't see this.)

4. Can you be sure it / they weren't (crash test) dummies? Did
you see any 'blood' on the site?

5. Were there any discussions about possible non-normal
radioactivity, bacteria or viruses, and to take any precautions
against this, before  you came to the site? (Or, did the
officials expect what to find? The DoD were there 'pretty'
fast?)

6. Is it possible - today - to find the rocks where the disc
had crashed? The rocks should be very badly damaged - unless the
craft were very light in construction, and had low speed when it
hit the rocks.

7. The 'stingray design' is a 'new approach', and should be
further described, sketched, and brought available to alle the
List members - as fast as possible! (E.g., Ed, fax the sketch
from the MP to EBK, and he'll scan it.)

8. Were there any medical personnel at the site, giving first
aid, and telling whether the creatures were dead or not? Someone
with medical experience must have taken the decision about this
on-site.

9. Did it look like that  the officers and other officials at
the site were 'expecting' this visit in some way or other; that
they were in some way prepared to handle the situation should it
occur? (If relevant from 8 or 5: Therefore no medical personnel
involved?)


My questions here surely indicate that I'm a skepitic, but it's
impossible to say which one's the hoaxer, you, the MP, the US
Military/Government or anybody else. Or, all of them could all
be right, in some way or other!

Thanking you in advance,

Asgeir







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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 >
   Apr > Apr 9

                    Re: Voyager Newsletter - Issue No. 10

From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2000 14:44:06 -0400 (EDT)
Fwd Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2000 18:23:34 -0400
Subject: Re: Voyager Newsletter - Issue No. 10


 >From: James Easton <voyager@ukonline.co.uk>
 >Date: Sat, 08 Apr 2000 01:47:27 +0100
 >Fwd Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2000 22:25:57 -0400
 >Subject: Voyager Newsletter - Issue No. 10

 >1. Significant New Evidence Questions Foremost 'Flying Saucer'
 >Sighting.

 >A new breakthrough may help explain the puzzling sighting which
 >sparked 50 years of 'flying saucer' reports.

Phrases like "significant new evidence" and "a new breakthrough"
are typical James Easton hyperbole.  As  it turns out his "new
evidence" and "breakthrough" is also typical James Easton
nonsense.  We expect nothing less from the original and world's
foremost practitioner of pelicanist logic.

 >It was on 24 June 1947, that private pilot Kenneth Arnold
 >observed a formation of nine crescent-shaped objects near Mt.
 >Rainier. Although unable to identify them, Arnold believed they
 >were possibly a new type of jet and timed their airspeed as
 >approximately 1200 mph, much faster than any known aircraft.

<....Snip -- I'll comment on the snipped out parts in another
post -- if I ever get the time.>

 >In 1997, researcher Martin Kottmeyer revisited this pivotal
 >'UFO' case and in an article entitled, 'Resolving Arnold'
 >concluded:

 >"In 'The Coming of the Saucers' he said they momentarily
 >disappeared 'behind a jagged peak that juts out from Mount
 >Rainier proper.' In his memoir for the First International UFO
 >Congress he says, 'When they turned length-wise or flat-wise to
 >me they were very thin and they actually disappeared from sight
 >behind a projection on Mount Rainier in the snowfield.' These
 >are not exactly the same thing, but they give a fair indication
 >of what to look for on the geological survey maps.

 >Arnold estimated the crafts were at an altitude of 9,200 feet
 >plus or minus 1,000. The task at hand is thus to locate some
 >feature extending above the 8,200 foot level. This yields a neat
 >little surprise. There are no such peaks between Mount Rainier
 >and Mount Adams. The closest thing I could find was Pyramid Peak
 >which stands only 6,937 feet tall in front of Mount Rainier's
 >base.

Arnold based his altitude estimate on the objects appearing to
be on his visual horizon, which if true would have placed them
up at his plane's altitude of 9200 feet.  However, Arnold also
described how the objects appeared to skim the ridgeline and
peaks of the southern Cascades, which would have placed them at
closer to 5000-6000 feet.  The difference can be resolved by
assuming that the objects were actually slightly below Arnold's
visual horizon, as Bruce Maccabee has pointed out many times
before.  If the objects were about 20 miles away, a small 2
degree depression from true horizon would account for the
approximate 4000 foot altitude discrepancy.

So rather than looking for some obstruction up around the 9000
foot level, it makes more sense to be looking for something down
around the 5000 to 6000 foot level.  (Arnold said they remained
in very level flight.)  Kottmeyer points out that Pyramid Peak
on Rainier's southwestern flank (and thus exactly between
Arnold's position and Rainier) has an elevation of around 7000
feet.

A little bit further down the same southwestern flank by about 1
to 2 miles are Iron Mountain, Saturlick Mtn. and Mount Aranat
with peaks between 5000 and 6000 feet.  If you look at a topo
map, you'll see that there is a little saddleback between Iron
Mountain and Pyramid Peak (perhaps 1/2 to 1 mile wide), and an
even broader saddleback between Saturlick/Ararat and Iron
Mountain (more like 2 miles wide).

Objects hugging the terrain (as Arnold said they appeared to
be), could dip into either of these saddlebacks and disappear
from few from Arnold's vantage point for a few seconds.  Thus
one of these small subpeaks of Rainier on the southwesten flank
might very well be what Arnold was describing.

Another possible candidate would be a small projection called
Tokaloo Rock along Rainier's western flank and up around 7700
feet.  North of Tokaloo a few miles and northwest of Rainier is
Needle Rock, and in between Tokaloo and Needle around Edmund's
Glacier is another subpeak (unnamed on my map) up around the
6500 foot level and which objects could also momentarily slip
behind.

The point is there are a number of possible candidates for
Arnold's subpeak that all lay in front of Rainier.  Another
point is that if Arnold was directly over Mineral, WA, he was
about 25 miles from Rainier's summit (he estimated in earlier
newspaper accounts 25 to 30 miles), whereas the small peak he
said he found on the map was 23 miles from his position.
Therefore, Arnold was again speaking of something in front of or
W/SW of Rainier, not a peak _behind_ Rainier.

 > There is a sharp little projection called Little Tacoma
 >which sticks out around the 10,000 foot level, but it is on the
 >wrong side of the mountain to be seen from Arnold's flight path.

Please note here that Kottmeyer recognizes that Little Tacoma
would not be visible from Arnold's position to the southwest of
Mount Rainier.  Too bad our intrepid pelicanist doesn't also
have the sense to realize this as well.  Yes, below Easton
proposes that this invisible peak is exactly what  Arnold saw.

 >It would be badly stretching things to suggest he got either his
 >position or altitude that far wrong".

 >One of the earliest, related references came from a lengthy
 >newspaper article in the 'Pendleton, Oregon East Oregonian' on
 >June 26, 1947:

 >"He said he could estimate the distance of the objects better
 >because an intervening peak once blocked his view of them. He
 >found the peak was 25 miles away, he related.

Later Arnold amended that to 23 miles.

Pyramid Peak, for comparison, would have been approximately 20
miles from Arnold if Arnold was over Mineral.  Needle Rock, a
little to the north, would have been about 23 miles.

But Little Tehama would have been about 26 miles away.

 >Both these perceptions were critical to Arnold's estimates of
 >the objects' distance and speed. Curiously, he was subsequently
 >unable to identify the landmark and its probable identity has
 >remained elusive - until now.

 >Following discussions with other interested researchers and the
 >perusal of several, different topographical maps, it seemed
 >there was only one likely candidate for 'Arnold's peak'.
 >Confident this could yet be determined, I wrote to some
 >indigenous sources who had expertise of the mountain range:

 >"I wonder if you could offer an informed opinion concerning a
 >historical observation near Mt. Rainier.

 >I'm trying to locate what was described by an observer in the
 >1940s as, `a jagged peak that juts out from the base of Mount
 >Rainier proper'.

 >Having research the locality from topographical maps, I'm still
 >uncertain about the identity of this peak and what constitutes
 >`the base of Mount Rainier proper'.

 >An important clue could be that the writer was a pilot and made
 >this observation from approximately over the town of Mineral and
 >heading in the mountain's direction.

Note Easton fails to mention Arnold's altitude of 9200 feet,
which is very important.

 >Therefore, the `jagged peak' must be visible from that location,
 >to the west/southwest of Mt. Rainier.

 >Any opinions or comments would be greatly appreciated and could
 >be of invaluable help in my research.

 >It would be fully understood that any opinions would be a 'best
 >guess' and I'm happy to have more than one possibility suggested
 >for this `jagged peak'."

 >David Basset is a mountaineer with vast experience of Mt.
 >Rainier and surrounding peaks. He responded:

 >"The jagged peak you are referring to is clearly Little Tahoma.
 >It is jagged because it is unglaciated and very steep. It rises
 >from the base of Mt. Rainier on the East or Southeast side. You
 >said the observation was taken from the west or southwest. This
 >might be troubling because it is on the other side of the
 >mountain, but rest assured, Little Tahoma is the peak. It stands
 >out, being much higher than any other mountain close to
 >Rainier".

Yes, as Mr. Basset noted, this might indeed be troubling.  If
you check a topo map, the southern and southeastern slopes of
Rainier proper would have concealed Little Tahoma from Arnold's
view.

One critical piece of evidence that Jame's Easton left out of
his description to his experts was Arnold's altitude of about
9200 feet.  In other words, Arnold was _below_ Little Tehama,
not flying well above it, where he might have been able to see
it.  But with Arnold lower in altitude, Little Tehama would be
concealed by Rainier's slopes. > >Located at Mt. Rainier
National Park, Chris Trotter, the Park >Guide and Douglas Kraus,
the Park Naturalist, confirmed:

 >"The consensus from my co-workers is that the 'jagged peak' is
 >Little Tahoma. This peak can be seen from many areas around the
 >mountain. Mt. Rainier is said to rise 11,000 feet from its
 >base".

It might be visible from many areas around the mountain, but not
from where Kenneth Arnold was.

 >Little Tahoma (or Tacoma) was indeed the only peak which seemed
 >to match Arnold's description and it could have been visible
 >from his location.

Left out here is the disturbing fact that Little Tahoma was NOT
visible from Arnold's location.

 >If now resolved, the repercussions are fundamental.

That's a big "if" since nothing has been resolved.  Since the
so-called "signficant new evidence" and "breakthrough" turn out
to be nothing but the usual flawed pelicanist reasoning, there
are no fundamental repercussions.

 >Arnold, flying more or less eastwards towards Mt. Rainier's
 >slopes, consistently and repeatedly clarified how the nine
 >objects, travelling southwards, passed directly in front of him
 >on the western slopes of Mt. Rainier.

 >However, Little Tahoma is on the mountain's far eastern side, as
 >can be seen from the following map:

 >http://web.ukonline.co.uk/voyager/rainier.jpg

Nice map.  Unfortunately it doesn't clearly show that the
intervening slopes of Rainier along Arnold's sightline to Little
Tahoma would have concealed Little Tahoma from his view.

 >The obvious conclusion -

The obvious conclusion -- James Easton can't read a map in
addition to not being able to do simple math.

 > Arnold misperceived how those nine
 >objects momentarily disappeared behind this remote peak. In
 >fact, they absolutely must have passed in front of it.

How is that new?  Arnold all along said they passed in front of
Rainier.  The only one who seems a little confused here is James
Easton.

According to Easton, Arnold must have been describing a
prominent peak on the wrong side of the mountain.  Because it
was on the wrong side of the mountain, it must be Arnold who was
confused about how far away the objects really were.  Left out
of the pelicanist equation, however, is the fact that being on
the wrong side of the mountain, Arnold couldn't have seen the
peak which supposedly demonstrates that Arnold was confused.

Pelicanist logic -- you gotta love it.

 >As Arnold confirmed he relied on the apparent, fleeting
 >disappearance behind a far-off peak to establish the objects'
 >distance, that perspective is evidently unreliable and analogous
 >to the situation Kottmeyer theorised:

 >"Normally one prefers early accounts to later ones, but the
 >Congress memoir may provide the clue to what happened here. When
 >the object turned flatwise, the optical thickness likely dropped
 >below the one half minute resolution limit and briefly dropped
 >from sight. The rough surface of the mountain provided
 >opportunities for an illusory correlation of the disappearance
 >to some feature of the mountain. The disappearance seemed to be
 >caused by an intervening feature where none in fact existed.
 >With no firm lower distance estimate, the way is opened for the
 >objects being closer to Arnold than he had surmised".

This is a half-way plausible hypothesis, though Arnold did say
he could still barely see them when they were edge-on as dark
thin lines  against the white backdrop of Rainier.

Incidentally, Kottmeyer is himself confused about the "one half
minute resolution limit", which refers to two separated
resolution targets, not singular targets, which is what Arnold
was describing.  In fact, elongated, high-contrast isolated
targets (like black thread against a white background) can still
just-be-detected down to about 2 seconds of arc thickness under
ideal laboratory conditions.

This doesn't necessarily negate Kottmeyer's argument, however,
that the objects were temporarily lost against the background
rather than slipping behind some peak.

However, I would also think that an experienced pilot like
Arnold would recognize a peak as a peak, and also be extremely
familiar with a very major feature of Rainier's like Little
Tehama.

 >It's Kottmeyer's latter argument which is now significantly
 >established.

Just more Easton propagandistic hyperbole.  Kottmeyer's argument
as not been "significantly established."  Easton is just arguing
by proclamation.  By saying it's so, it must be so.

 >Kottmeyer further reasoned that this allowed for the possibility
 >that our nine unidentified aerial artefacts could have been
 >Swans.

Except that swans cannot outfly Arnold's plane anymore than
pelicans can.  Notice how Easton once again fails to mention
anything about this fatal flaw in his entire bird argument.  He
also fails to explain how swans/geese/pelicans can appear to
flash brilliantly, almost blindingly (according to Arnold) with
the very bright icefields of Rainier directly behind them.  It
can't happen.  Birds of any color, however oily or shiny their
feathers might be, would still have lower reflectivity than ice
and snow and would appear darker, not much brighter.

 >I have previously published the results of my ensuing research,

....and still haven't learned a thing.

 >when Arnold's description of the object's quite distinctive
 >flight characteristics were discussed with knowledgeable Pacific
 >North-west ornithologists. They immediately recognised that
 >these quite specific characteristics were consistent with a
 >formation of south-bound, failed-breeder, American White
 >Pelicans (AWP).

 >The background to this story can be found on my web site at:

 >http://web.ukonline.co.uk/voyager/

 >It's taken over two years further research to fully understand
 >this possibility in an explainable and sustainable context.

Easton's absurd pelican argument hasn't change a whit in two
years, except now he's added that Arnold must have been
referring to an invisible mountain peak.

Ah, but if you write "it's taken over two years further
research" it sounds like something significant has been learned
since then.  That's how propagandists write.  In reality,
nothing much has obviously happened in those two years and
nothing new has been added.

 >To briefly recap, beyond any dispute now are the following facts
 >concerning these birds:

 >1. They are the largest species in North America and amongst the
 >biggest in the world. Although an extremely rare sighting in the
 >Cascade mountain range and almost certainly a species Arnold
 >would never have considered, they continue to be recorded in the
 >vicinity as high altitude migrants.

 >2. Predominately white, with black wing-tips, they are highly
 >reflective,

More deliberate hyperbole by Easton.  "Highly reflective" does
not make them more reflective than ice and snow.  That's one of
several important issues that Easton dodges.

 >being referred to as "sparkling" and "flashing" in
 >the far distance, even when effectively lost from sight (see the
 >aforementioned material on my web site).

Maybe at sunset with darkening sky behind them, but not in
bright daylight with icefields behind them.  That's just a
physical fact.

 >'Collins Encyclopaedia of Animals', [p 438], also notes:

 >"The surface structure of the feathers may affect a bird's
 >appearance in other ways. In certain birds, including pelicans,
 >terns and petrels, some black pigmented feathers in the wings
 >may in fact have a silvery appearance.

 >The silver gleam is caused by light reflected from very long,
 >fine, non-pigmented fibres in the feathers".

In other words, a little sheen off the feathers.  Still won't
make them brighter than icefields  and appear to be blindingly
bright.

 >3. They fly with an undulating motion like a roller coaster and
 >exactly as Arnold attributed to the enigmatic observation.

 >Arnold stated: "As I described them at the time their flight was
 >like speed boats on rough water or similar to the tail of a
 >Chinese kite that I once saw blowing in the wind".

 >Comparatively, in an article entitled, 'Pelicans', by G.
 >Alexander Virden, the writer recalls his own encounter with a
 >much larger formation, witnessed from the ground: "They appear
 >as crepe paper strips, tied to an invisible wind".

 >4. They employ a distinctive flapping and gliding motion, often
 >sailing for long periods on their massive wings.

 >As Arnold described how the nine objects "fluttered and sailed",
 >this is such an obvious correlation.

Only to a pelicanist.  We still await _real_ explanations, not
pelicanist nonsense, how they could appear to be so blindingly
bright and also outfly Arnold's plane.

 >It must be accepted that whatever Arnold witnessed, those nine
 >objects were at least amazingly similar to a formation of AWPs.

Only to a pelicanist who edits his material very carefully,
writes in hyperbole, and continues to dodge vital questions
about fatal flaws in his argument.

<snip>

 >And if anyone had suggested they might have been nine American
 >White Pelicans, why that would in all probability be quite
 >absurd.

Yes, quite absurd in all probability, but James Easton will never get it.

David Rudiak








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   Apr > Apr 9

               Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947

From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman@psln.com>
Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2000 11:50:23 -0800
Fwd Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2000 18:25:38 -0400
Subject: Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947


 >Date: Sat, 08 Apr 2000 17:46:40 -0400
 >From: Steven W. Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
 >Subject: Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >If I had a witness contact me with information that could lead
 >to breakthrough in relation to the Roswell mystery, I would do
 >my best to make sure that his story was investigated by one of
 >the specialists in the field and documented carefully so that it
 >wouldn't become twisted by the re-telling and lost to future
 >generations.

Steven, I hope I can make myself clear on this:  A witness is
not an object that you can do with or to as you please.  The MP
has his own concerns.  I do not boss him or tell him anything.
I sometimes make suggestions and keep him informed of what I'm
doing.  I agree that the MP's story might be accepted better
(although not totally) if he were working with Stan or Jan or
David or KR but they also carry their own baggage.  I can't
understand why my belief in the AA should disqualify me from
working with a witness who confirms that I'm correct.  This
witness contacted me because he realized that I would listen to
what he had to say with an open mind.  I've encouraged the MP to
identify himself. I have never met him.  I do not know his name,
only his email address. He's convinced me that he is who he says
he is. I know how limited his testimony is unless he's able to
convince you and others, too.

As far as "twisted by retelling" is concerned, the MP's Story is
told in his own words.  I've only edited for clarity.  This is
the story he sent me. I have not twisted it or distorted it in
any way. After I edit it, I send it to him for approval.  I want
this to be an open and honest process.

If the MP does turn out to be exactly who he says he is, will
you then believe him? Will you take another look at the AA?  I
realize that you have not said that the AA is a hoax or fake but
if not, what is it?  I don't think you, or many, have taken a
good close look at the evidence.  No one will discuss the
"Discussion of the Debris" that M. Dennis wrote.  That alone
should make even a skeptic take a second look at _everything_.
Have you examined Neil Morris's new research?  There is much
evidence for the validity of the AA on the web for all to read
and examine but few do so.

Hopefully, the MP's testimony won't be rejected because it
validates the AA since the AA is only part the Roswell puzzle.

Ed






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              Auto Immune Diseases With The Abduction Phenomena

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2000 16:24:30 -0400 (EDT)
Fwd Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2000 18:28:41 -0400
Subject: Auto Immune Diseases With The Abduction Phenomena


Has anyone on this list, data which correlates Auto Immune
diseases with the Abduction Phenomena? We are particularly
interested in such illnesses as Multiple Sclerosis, Lupus and
Arthritis.  These diseases are indicative of an _overactive_
immune system.

Any information would be greatly appreciated.  It will be used
(if appropriate) with full credit given.  We have interviewed
about 20 abductees recently, out of about 40 or so, who are so
afflicted ... as is my wife.  However there is insufficient data
with which to make any proper correlation study valid.

Much thanks.

Jim Mortellaro






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                    Re: Voyager Newsletter - Issue No. 10

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2000 16:54:59 -0400
Fwd Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2000 18:31:41 -0400
Subject: Re: Voyager Newsletter - Issue No. 10

 >From: James Easton <voyager@ukonline.co.uk>
 >Date: Sat, 08 Apr 2000 01:47:27 +0100
 >Fwd Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2000 22:25:57 -0400
 >Subject: Voyager Newsletter - Issue No. 10

James has presented what appears to be a reasonably "unbiased"
analysis of the Arnold sighting which includes the implication
that there is no reason why the objects seen by Arnold could not
have been large white pelicans. He has not mentioned two of the
major arguments against pelicans.

A)James has yet to prove that the birds could have effectively
"outflown" Arnold. That is to say, there is no reasonable track
for the pelicans (generally soutward) and no corresponding track
of Arnold (generally eastward) which would allow Arnold to (1)
have the pelicans in sight for 2.5- 3 minutes, (2) to see them
first apparently north of Mt. Rainier, (3) to see them cross his
eastward path and ultimately (4) to see them appear to pass Mt.
Adams WITHOUT having him get so close to the pelicans that he
"couldn't fail" to recognize them or else leave them behind,
that is to the west of him. James has yet to draw a map showing
the reasonable tracks of the supposed pelicans and of Arnold's
plane such that the sighting lines from Arnold's plane to the
birds is consistent with what Arnold reported.

NOTE that the top speed for pelicans is abou 50 mph and the
"bottom speed" for Arnold was 100 mph (maybe he was traveling
faster than this)

B)James has also failed to explain Arnolds repeated descriptions
(in writings and interviews) of the bright flashes given off by
the objects (whether sunlight reflectors or sources of light
themselves). Arnold said he saw a bright flash before he even
detected the objects themselves and, more importantly, that he
was able to track the objects by their flashes even though he
couldn't see the objects themselves at the end of the sighting.

I have recently calculated the expected brightness (luminous
intensity) of sunlight reflected from various surfaces including
flat mirror surfaces, curved mirror surfaces, snow, ice and
horizon sky and pelicans(!). The calculations show, as expected,
that mirror flashes can be seen for a great distance, that such
flashes are much brighter than sunlight reflected by distant
snow, the horizon sky and nearby pelicans (pelicans so close
they would be recognized). Note that Arnold refered to the flash
as being so bright it lit up his airplane, despite the
brightness of the sky and the afternoon sun. He also mentioned
"arc light" brightness.

I suppose it is possible that pelicans were using mirrors to
signal back and forth among themselves. :)

I will be happy to email my brightness analysis to anyone who
wishes to be deluged by calculations of luminous intensity,
specular and diffuse reflection, atmospheric transmission,
lumens, steradians and square meters (!). :)








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                 Re: 30th Conference on Anomalous Phenomena

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2000 17:06:17 -0400
Fwd Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2000 18:36:34 -0400
Subject: Re: 30th Conference on Anomalous Phenomena

 >Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2000 09:24:08 +1000
 >From: Diane Harrison <tkbnetw@powerup.com.au>
 >Subject: 30th Conference on Anomalous Phenomena
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >The Keith Basterfield Network Australasia
_____

 >30th Conference on Anomalous Phenomena*

 >THE INTERNATIONAL FORTEAN ORGANIZATION (INFO) presents

 >FortNite '00!

 >Grand Ballroom, College Park Maryland Holiday Inn 10000 Baltimore
 >Blvd (Rt.1)-Exit 25A from
 >Rte.495, College Park, Maryland.

 >May 13, 2000

 >SATURDAY LECTURE PROGRAM: 10:00 AM-6:00 PM

And, exactly one week before the above program at exactly the
same place we have th Mid Atlantic MUFON Symposium:


Here is the outline of the meeting.


May 6, 2000

Start 9:30 AM - investigator's workshop  (things t know if you
                 start investigating UFO sightings).
                 This runs 2-2.5 hours

12-1:00 Noon-lunch (part of the registration

SPEAKERS IN AFTERNOON

1:00-1:45 Bruce Maccabee... subject to be annouced

1:45-2:15  Dave Jacobs (1/2 hour investigators workshop on
            abduction investigations)

2:15-3:00 Bob Swiatek -  comparison of french UFO study with
           Sturrock Panel study

3 - 3:30  Snack Break

3:30 - 4:15 Allison Reed - (abductee) her experiences

4:15 - 5:00 Sue Swiatek  (stba)

5 - 5:45  Dr. Peter Resta

5:45 - 7:00 SUPPER (on your own)

7:00 -7:45 Richard Hall - The UFO Evidence , Volume 2 and what
            it means

7:45 - 8:30 Dave Jacobs  (his recent research and forthcoming book)

8:30 onward Panel discussion.

All for $50 (includes lunch and afternoon snack)


Holiday Inn, College Park, which is on Route 1 immediately north
of the Beltway. Simply take the route 1 exit north from 495 and
you'll see the hotel.... it is, like 20 seconds from the
beltway!







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                       MAGONIA Monthly Supplement #25

From: Mark Pilkington <m.pilkington@virgin.net>
Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2000 23:07:55 +0100
Fwd Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2000 18:43:17 -0400
Subject: MAGONIA Monthly Supplement  #25

http://www.magonia.demon.co.uk

MAGONIA Monthly Supplement  #25
Interpreting contemporary vision and belief
Promoting Pelican Pride

----------------------------------------------------------------

Editor: JOHN HARNEY
=======================================================

EDITORIAL

In this issue John Rimmer discusses recent criticism of Jenny
Randles for her apparently equivocal attitude to the questions
raised by UFO abduction stories. However, those who wish to take
a hard line on ufologists who assure abductees that their
experiences are real, instead of attempting to help them to see
that they have no more physical reality than dreams or
nightmares, should perhaps choose a different target. Jenny may
at times appear to be sitting on the fence, but there is nothing
ambiguous about the following statement about abduction reports
by another well-known British ufologist: "Although, as we have
seen, there are a variety of theories in circulation concerning
the precise nature of this phenomenon, I believe there to be an
extraterrestrial explanation. My own research and investigation
coupled with careful analysis of the work of others leads me to
the conclusion that a literal interpretation of the reports from
witnesses is the correct one." This is by Nick Pope in his book
The Uninvited. He is still involved in the abductee business; a
recent email circulated to ufologists announces that he will be
speaking at an Intruders Foundation conference in New York on 6
May. Pope, who is billed in the email as "Higher Minister of
British Defence (MOD)", will be holding forth alongside such
luminaries as Dr John Mack, Dr Bruce Maccabee and Budd Hopkins.
There will be a panel of abductees who will "field questions
from speakers and audience". Those who deplore the activities of
ufologists who exploit vulnerable persons who imagine that they
might have been abducted by aliens should keep a close watch on
his activities in this field.
________________________________________________________________


THE TROUBLED SMALL WORLD OF BRITISH UFOLOGY

John Rimmer

The small world of British ufology has been wracked over the
past few months by a succession of controversies, starting with
the breakup of BUFORA when a number of active researchers, tired
of the bureaucratic practices of the national organisation, set
up the research-focused group UFOIN. Almost immediately UFOIN
underwent its own crisis. Larry O'Hara, a political researcher
with a record of exposing far-right and neo-Nazi activists,
denounced the Lancashire-based ufologist Tim Matthews as the
former Tim Hepple, who has a chequered record of activity in a
variety of extremist political organisations ranging from the
extreme-right British National Party to the Green Anarchist
movement. O'Hara's booklet on Matthews, At War With the Universe
(a play on the title of a pamphlet Hepple/Matthews wrote: At War
With Society) explains the complexities of this in great detail.
Probably too much detail if you are not a keen student of the
Byzantine complexities of the British political fringe. The
pamphlet was sent to a number of figures in the British UFO
establishment, and an extended review of it, by Peter Rogerson,
appears in the latest issue of Magonia magazine (No. 70). One of
O'Hara's main concerns was that Matthews's preferred UFO theory
- secret weapons - was based on a promotion of alleged advanced
technology developed during the Second World War by Nazi
scientists.

At first, most ufologists who received the pamphlet seemed ready
to close ranks around Matthews, defending the honour of British
ufology against troublesome outsiders. However, after a careful
reading of O'Hara's pamphlet (carefully ignoring the distracting
personal abuse - constant references to "the thug Matthews",
etc., and entertaining side issues such as claims that O'Hara
had attacked Matthews's parents' coal-shed for unspecified
reasons) a few doubts began to creep in about Matthews/Hepple's
suitability as a member of the UFOIN team. Any unpleasant
necessity to refuse Matthews membership of UFOIN was dispelled
when, counter-Groucho-style, he declined to be a member of any
group that didn't want him, and resigned before he was elected.
He then announced the formation of his own group, the
grandiosely-named "National UFO Research Association" (Peter
Rogerson informs me that there are certain legal restrictions on
organisations arbitrarily calling themselves "National" or
"British", but we'll let that pass). Little has subsequently
been heard except an announcement that its members will have no
role in deciding its policy or electing its leaders. You may
well think this policy is in some way related to Matthews's
earlier political experience, but I could not possibly comment.
However, this pattern of joining organisations, attempting to
disrupt them then setting up new groups is a pattern which
O'Hara claims is typical of Matthews's modus operandi.

No sooner had friend Matthews disappeared into apparent oblivion
(though I suspect only temporarily) than another problem arose.
Kevin McClure is one of Britain's most respected researchers and
writers on ufology and related topics. He has edited a series of
magazines and bulletins over the years, most recently Abduction
Watch which is archived on the Magonia web site. These have been
distinguished by a strong moral and campaigning stance; he has
always been concerned about the effects which misguided and
uninformed "investigation" may have on individuals who are
caught up in such events as abductions. He has never been afraid
to make strong personal criticisms of people who he feels may be
harming vulnerable individuals. Most recently he has criticised
Tony Dodd over his handling of a supposed abduction case
involving a young boy in Kent.

His article "Bogeymen" in Magonia 55 is a strongly worded attack
on particular researchers who he feels have exploited the
accounts of children's experiences. The most recent issue of
Abduction Watch goes further, and calls for the abandonment of
all abduction investigations by responsible ufologists. Now this
in itself is not a particularly controversial suggestion amongst
the more responsible British ufologists, and in Internet
correspondence UFOIN members have been discussing just such an
idea themselves. Indeed they have recently debated the idea of
publishing a report to the media and other researchers
advocating this and explaining the reasons why they think this
should happen.

Kevin has now issued a further document, an "Open Letter" to
Jenny Randles, which he has circulated to a dozen or so
researchers. In this he seizes upon some comments made by Jenny
Randles in her recent book, The Complete Book of Aliens and
Abductions. I intend to review this book in the next issue of
Magonia, so will not go into too much detail about it here,
except to say that I find it generally a good book, giving a
balanced view of the abduction phenomenon. Kevin, however, seems
concerned by two points: he feels that Jenny fails to give an
unambiguous endorsement to the idea that no human has ever been
abducted by physically real space aliens; and that she gives
precise numbers for abduction cases which have been reported in
Britain and the USA - specifically, 87 abductions in Britain.
Now I don't think that there is anywhere in the book that Jenny
says, in so many words, "no humans have ever been abducted by
space aliens", but I think it would be a rather perverse reading
of the book which would give anybody the idea that she did not
think that. Similarly in the numbers game, her reference is
always to "abduction cases" or "abduction reports": it is
stretching things to suggest that this means she endorses the
physical reality of the 87 reports she counts. Perhaps she
should have prefaced her book with the paragraph that I attached
to my Evidence for Alien Abductions: "Any serious scientific
report of a UFO investigation is riddled with a great number of
absolutely necessary words like "alleged", "supposed",
"apparent" and "reportedly". Ufology deals with the testimony of
individuals, and such caution is vital; we can assume nothing.
However, they do tend to get in the way of a smooth flowing
narrative, and by and large I have omitted them when summarising
cases. They should however be assumed in all descriptions of
"alleged" sightings". An elegant little disclaimer which I offer
free of charge to all UFO authors.

I think here Kevin is being deliberately disingenuous; however,
his other point is valid. He suggests that as Jenny has
identified 87 cases in Britain as being "best evidence" for some
sort of phenomenon, these would be worthy of re-investigation.
He asks Jenny to release information about these cases for that
purpose, including the names, ages and sexes of the percipients,
location, date, time, details of investigator and investigation,
and so forth. Immediately this presents a contradiction when we
consider that much of this information has been offered to the
investigators on terms of total confidence, and Kevin is someone
who has been most critical of investigators who have released
witnesses' personal details. However, assuming that some
agreement could be reached about confidentiality for the
individuals involved, I think that a careful re-investigation of
many of these cases would be of considerable value. They are
already, to some extent, in the public domain; the people
involved will already have been exposed to the ufological
milieu, and in many cases will have had experience in dealing
with investigators. I think it would be inadvisable - as well as
impractical - to re-investigate all of the 87 cases, but I am
sure there are some which would definitely repay careful
reconsideration. Rather than dismiss Kevin's "Open Letter" out
of hand, I think British ufologists should carefully re-read it
and consider it as a contribution towards a new understanding of
the abduction phenomenon. I think all responsible ufologists in
this country now agree that we should call a halt to the
investigation of new abduction cases. But for some considerable
time to come people are still going to come forward claiming
such experiences; we should have something to tell them which
will help them make sense of their experience. A
re-investigation project may provide information towards this.

Finally, to demonstrate that there really is very little
difference between Jenny Randles's and Kevin McClure's
approaches to "abductees", I give you a paragraph from The
Complete Book of Aliens and Abductions which I think Kevin, and
all serious researchers will endorse: "It is hard to accept that
true memories of a terrible nature are being unleashed into the
mind by hypnotic regression. And of course if they are then what
right do the ufologists have to inflict such torture upon adults
(let alone children)? A ufologist will wring out the facts, give
lectures, write a book and move on to the next case. The witness
is left to face a lifetime of torment."
________________________________________________________________

LITERARY CRITICISM
Reviews by Peter Rogerson

Danny Sullivan. Ley Lines: A Comprehensive Guide to Alignments,
Piatkus, 1999. �16.99.

In the first part of his book, Danny Sullivan, the editor of the
Ley Hunter, provides a fascinating history of the ley hunting
movement from the days of Alfred Watkins onwards. He portrays
Watkins as very much the practical man, rather than the mystic
portrayed in some quarters, seeing the leys as ancient
merchants' ways, rather like the roads he drove down in the
course of business. Sullivan notes how more mystically inclined
people were attracted to the Straight Track Club. It was these
people who reformed ley hunting as part of the counter culture
in the 1960s. Sullivan notes the role of Aime Michel's theory of
orthoteny in the rebirth, and the founding influence of people
like Tony Duncan Wedd, Jimmy Goddard and Philip Hesselton in
this. I still remember Wedd's lecture to the notorious DIGAP
Manchester conference of 1968, with his Pythonesque slide shows:
"No. 2, The Scots Pine. THE SCOTS PINE", and his assertion to
teenagers like myself in the audience, that when we grew up we
would live in a world powered by earth energies and other
goodies from the space people. Still waiting, Tony. Other
pioneers included John Michell, a pioneer of "flying saucers and
fairies", ancient astronauts and general earth mysteries, whose
book The View over Atlantis Sullivan describes as seminal. Alas
I never inhaled the sort of substances necessary to appreciate
that sort of thing, and described it in my MUFOB review as
"unmitigated rubbish" and suggested that it might give aid and
comfort to the sort of people in whose company Tim Hepple used
to be seen.

Ley hunting has certainly toned down rather since then, and it's
quiet clear that these early mystical effusions are now seen as
rather an embarrassment. Ley hunting is now trying to get back
to something of the more down-to-earth quality of Watkins, and
to try and mend fences with the archaeological establishment,
which itself has undergone drastic changes since Watkins's days,
when Egyptian diffusion was very much the thing. Today there is
a general willingness to see Neolithic societies as much more
sophisticated, though I doubt that the particular views of
Hawkins and Thom even now find much favour.

While I liked the history, I was rather less sure of the modern
interpretation, which is Paul Devereux's theory of "spirit
lines". It's not that I am in any way sure that it is wrong, far
from it, it's that I am not sure it really is established. The
real problem I had, which was no doubt caused by the popular
format of the book, was the repeated assertion that such and
such is a tradition here and there, without any documentation to
back it up. I think we have to be very wary of such claims,
because to put it frankly, much folklore was collected by
amateur antiquarians, local clergymen and their daughters, and
in more recent times by Women's Institutes and WEA classes. Very
worthy, no doubt, but lacking modern anthropological,
archaeological and historical scholarship, often based on very
outdated ideas, and open to multiple levels of bias. There is
also a suspicion that much "age old folklore" was actually
invented between the Restoration and the end of the 19th
century.

I am not sure that "spirit lines" actually play much role in
traditional ghost lore; the average British ghost is reluctant
enough to move from the "haunted room", still less from the
council house or pub in which it is safely ensconced, to go
walkies, in straight lines or any other way. More seriously I'm
not sure whether Sullivan actually believes in "real" spirits
moving in straight lines, or is indeed dealing with traditions.
He makes the curious remark that as there is no reason for the
world-wide belief in straight spirit flight other than " . . .
real human experience, possibly from witnessing the passage of
spirits, either in waking reality, in dreams or in . . .
subconscious experience . . . " Well, an obvious rational reason
why such a belief  may have arisen, is that light, such as in
moonbeams and sunbeams, travels along straight lines, and the
idea of spirits travelling along them to celestial realms seems
a fairly obvious one to me.

Despite any cavils this is a good popular introduction for
newcomers who want to know about the history and current beliefs
of ley hunters.

Dana Redfield. Summoned: Encounters with Alien Intelligence,
Hampton Roads Books, 1999. �14.99

Dana Redfield is not only a writer and abductee, but also a
"silent contactee" and channeler, some of whose channelled
writings are reproduced in this book. These are barely coherent,
but show many of the classical features of hypergraphia and
automatic writing, including the use of ponderous and pompous
phraseology, quite unlike her normal writing style. She also
includes a diary of dreams and unusual nocturnal experiences,
which are quite clearly hypnogogic and hypnopompic experiences,
with the occasional sleep paralysis episode thrown in. The
admittedly brief and incomplete account of her life, with six
brief marriages etc., seems to hint at some underlying problem
in her life, but I doubt if it has anything to do with abduction
by aliens. It is much more likely that these experiences are
symptoms rather than causes.

There are also aspects of her claimed childhood experiences
which, with a different set of preconditions and therapists,
could have been spun into a child abuse narrative.
________________________________________________________________

LETTER

Your remarks about "British ufology reborn yet again?" are to
the point.

I suspect that the purpose of NUFORA is twofold: 1. To have a
last desperate attempt at making ufology acceptable to
mainstream science, and 2. To cock a snook at, and maybe cause
confusion in the public mind with, BUFORA (else why the very
similar name?).

With regard to the first, NUFORA promises "objective research"
and "the highest standards of investigation" with all
investigators being required to undergo formal training plus an
examination to qualify. Certain books from a prescribed list are
essential reading for all would-be investigators.

Objectivity and high standards are old hat of course. But never
before have I heard of ufologists being required to sit
examinations! What will we have next? A-levels or maybe even
honours degrees in ufology? And just who are these "examiners"?
What qualifications do these people possess at present and who
appoints them? It will be most interesting to see the NUFORA
book list (what about videos?) and a specimen examination paper.

The announcement of a team of "consultants" (no actual names
yet) is only to be expected. One wonders just how much
consulting these people will in fact do. Shades of NICAP, CUFOS,
MUFON, FSR and so on.

I share your views about NUFORA's meaning, purpose and life
expectancy. Christopher Allan, Stoke-on-Trent

----------------------------------------------------------------

Next issue: Martin Kottmeyer on spacesuited aliens in "Diving to
Earth"
________________________________________________________________


MAGONIA Monthly Supplement. Letters and short articles welcome. Letters
will be considered for publication unless otherwise indicated.
Contributors whose articles or letters are published will receive a copy

of the printed version. Please send all contributions to the Editor:
Email: harney@harneyj.freeserve.co.uk







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               Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947

From: Sue Strickland <strick@H2Net.net>
Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2000 15:36:13 -0600
Fwd Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2000 18:45:12 -0400
Subject: Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947


 >Date: Sat, 08 Apr 2000 14:58:20 -0800
 >From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman@psln.com>
 >Subject: Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >Dear Ed, and Mr. MP and other List Members:

Mr. MP stated:

"I am not going to answer some of those questions like who was
with me...They still might have family's around and I don't want
to drag anyone into this but me."

I would like to respond to that statement. Firstly, I understand
Mr. MP's reluctance to make public the names of those he was on
guard duty with that day without their knowledge. But Mr. MP,
you aren't the ONLY one involved in this. There are already 3
generations of my family involved; now multiply that my 400,000
people (conservative estimate of the number of people being
abducted yearly), and you can see the partial magnitude of this
problem. I realize it's not easy to call up your acquaintances
of 50 years ago and talk about something you were told not to
discuss...`for the security of the country.' The security of
this earth should be of paramount importance to all of us.
Right?

What is national security? Isn't that concept based on creative,
critically-thinking, sane minds, able to problem-solve in the
face of crisis? Military grunts aren't supposed to think, just
follow orders, much less question orders. It was *assumed* that
those in command had/have those creative, critically-thinking,
sane minds, able to problem solve in times of crisis. History
has shown that unfortunately this is not *always* the case
(e.g., Stalin, Hitler, Mussolini, Napolean, Alexander-the-Great,
Attila the Hun, Caesar Augustus). They *all* made
mistakes...*BIG* mistakes. So have some of our Presidents.
*None* have been perfect. Because of some of the decisions they
made during their terms in office, we the people have rued and
suffered for since.

Take for example the little girls and boys, teenagers and adults STILL
being abducted. Did you know we cannot *prove* that babies are being
implanted in 9 year old girls, but much evidence points to that fact.
Did you know there is no physical *proof* that young men and adult men
are being abducted and that their sperm is being used to create hybrid
aliens? There is much evidence which points to the validity of these
claims. Our national sanity is at stake, as well as our ability to
function if this is not countered SOON! Never mind that WHEN (not IF)
the truth comes out, our government's motives for keeping all of this
secret may topple the government and choas will reign
worldwide...because the longer this secrecy lasts, the more questions
will arise as more and more people SEE and EXPERIENCE this alien
phenomena. Where do you draw the line Mr. MP? You aren't protecting
anyone but yourself, and after you're dead, what good will that do?

Mr. MP, you stated, "I have given you some very important
answers to the crash as we talked about that will be proof of
what happened such as the color of the disc. Only the people
still alive will know these facts."

I was only 2 years old when the Roswell crash occurred. I
learned a lot about Roswell from an alien in my bedroom at age
8. I didn't believe him then because I could not believe our
government could be so cruel, thoughtless and secretive. I'm a
grandmother now and I know better. Much of what you have given
as proof, such as the color of the disc, is well known by
thousands who have experienced abduction and/or witnessed such
aircraft streaking across the skies or ambushed and paced along
dark, deserted highways...all over the world. It's no secret
anymore. Our government has only tried (fairly unsuccesfully) to
cover-up the truth. The Chinese and Russian governments are more
open about this phenomena than we are!

If I were you, I'd stop stradling the fence post and call up
some of those buddies and get together on a conference call, and
let them know you're going to record the conversations. You all
may be able to stop this secretive nonsense that's been going on
for at least 50+ years. You certainly aren't doing yourselves or
the present or future children of our world any favors by hiding
behind our government's claim to a need for security. Every
government in the world knows about this. Pretending it doesn't
exist is *not* problem-solving. It does not promote critical or
creative thinking or engender sanity. But, the way it has been
handled in the past is just about par for the historical course.
How many more generations have to rue this ostrich-like behavior
by our government?

Let's face it, when we the people continue to elect men to the
Presidency who can't keep their genatilia in their pants, and
then outright lie to the American people on national television
about their affairs...what's wrong with this picture? Is it in
the best interests of national security to keep such behavior
secret anymore than to keep an historical event secret after 50
years? We just keep electing the same kind of people, trying to
hide behind an ideal that is a farce. What happened to our
ideals? Is that what you want to pass on to your grandchildren?
You *all* will be doing the government a big future favor, as
well as those of us still being abducted...which is what the
government REALLY wants to keep quiet. What's wrong with THAT
picture? You tell me. Sue Strickland, ex-abductee for 10+ years







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               Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947

From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net>
Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2000 17:50:25 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2000 18:52:42 -0400
Subject: Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947


 >From: Ed Gehrman
 >Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2000 11:50:23 -0800
 >Fwd Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2000 18:25:38 -0400
 >Subject: Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947

 >>Date: Sat, 08 Apr 2000 17:46:40 -0400
 >>From: Steven W. Kaeser
 >>Subject: Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto

Previously, Steven had wisely offered:

 >>If I had a witness contact me with information that could lead
 >>to breakthrough in relation to the Roswell mystery, I would do
 >>my best to make sure that his story was investigated by one of
 >>the specialists in the field and documented carefully so that it
 >>wouldn't become twisted by the re-telling and lost to future
 >>generations.

Ed replied:

 >I can't
 >understand why my belief in the AA should disqualify me from
 >working with a witness who confirms that I'm correct.

Geez, Ed. And you called Steven obtuse?

 >As far as "twisted by retelling" is concerned, the >MP's Story
 >is told in his own words.  I've only edited for clarity.  This
 >is the story he sent me. I have not twisted it or distorted it
 >in any way. After I edit it, I send it to him for approval.  I
 >want this to be an open and honest process.

Then stop editing his answers. Period.

Otherwise, you'll always have the fallback position of claiming
he was misunderstood because of the way you edited his comments.
I'm still waiting to hear your/his explanation about the
contradicting accounts regarding the flood lights. Were they on
when he arrived at the crash site or were they off? Or is this
the first in many upcoming examples of "faulty editing"?

Let the man speak for himself.

Or perhaps he already is.... ;)

later,

Roger Evans







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               Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947

From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman@psln.com>
Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2000 15:48:32 -0800
Fwd Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 17:20:41 -0400
Subject: Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947


 >Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2000 17:50:25 -0500
 >From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net>
 >Subject: Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

Snip>

 >Otherwise, you'll always have the fallback position of claiming
 >he was misunderstood because of the way you edited his comments.

When have I done that? You've no reason to imply that I'm
dishonest in any way.  My only 'crime' is defending the AA.
History will prove me right. I can wait. Ed

 >I'm still waiting to hear your/his explanation about the
 >contradicting accounts regarding the flood lights. Were they on
 >when he arrived at the crash site or were they off? Or is this
 >the first in many upcoming examples of "faulty editing"?

In reply to the post of Roger Evans:

The flood lights had been up facing away from the crash site
when we arrived. They had NOT been turned on facing the craft
until later, so I was able to see the glow. My only guess is
that they wanted to make sure no one got close enough to the
site as they made plans to get closer to the craft.

The MP

(unedited)







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                Re: Arnold's Sighting And Ufology's First Law

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2000 23:12:41 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 17:25:21 -0400
Subject: Re: Arnold's Sighting And Ufology's First Law


 >Date: Sat, 08 Apr 2000 18:24:54 -0400
 >From: Jan Aldrich <jan@cyberzone.net>
 >Subject: Arnold's Sighting And Ufology's First Law
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>


 >Here is posting from some weeks ago on Project 1947 list. I
 >think it applies pretty well to Kottmeyer and Easton.

----------------------------------------------------------------

 >Before everyone gets all wrapped around the axle on this latest
 >Arnold request I suggest everyone read:

 >http://www.project1947.com/fig/ka.htm

 >It is obvious from the postings here that most have not read
 >this!

 >There are problems with most explanations recently offered here
 >and elsewhere for Arnold's sighting.  Pelicans and other birds
 >can only fly so fast.   If you the look at the angular distance
 >and the top speed of the pelicans can reach, the pelicans had to
 >be very close and Arnold should have overhauled them.

<snip>

 >Valle tried to posit some laws of ufology.  A law in science
 >deals with something which has always observed to be true.  None
 >of Valle's laws worked; there were always exceptions.

 >Here is the real First Law of Ufology:

 >"Explanations for UFOs override all facts to the contrary."

 >Any contradictory facts in a UFO account can be completely
 >ignored if it gets in the way of a good explanation.  (The
 >explanation is irrelevant, ET spaceships, ball lightning, Capt
 >Midnight's secret squadron of flying pancakes. Just don't
 >mention anything that conflicts with the explanation.)


This leads to Maccabee's First Law of Debunking:
_Any_ explanation is better than none.

The Second Law is..... if the first explanation seems
unconvincing or is contradicted by "evidence" propose another.

The Corollary to the Second Law is: if the second explanation
doesn't work..... try a third, etc. ad infinitum.







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               Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947

From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2000 22:03:44 -0400 (EDT)
Fwd Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 17:31:32 -0400
Subject: Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947


 >Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2000 11:50:23 -0800
 >From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman@psln.com>
 >Subject: Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Date: Sat, 08 Apr 2000 17:46:40 -0400
 >>From: Steven W. Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
 >>Subject: Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>If I had a witness contact me with information that could lead
 >>to breakthrough in relation to the Roswell mystery, I would do
 >>my best to make sure that his story was investigated by one of
 >>the specialists in the field and documented carefully so that it
 >>wouldn't become twisted by the re-telling and lost to future
 >>generations.

 >Steven, I hope I can make myself clear on this: A witness is
 >not an object that you can do with or to as you please. The MP
 >has his own concerns. I do not boss him or tell him anything.
 >I sometimes make suggestions and keep him informed of what I'm

Thats true, _but_ still no evidence that what the MP is saying
is true. The MP's story would remind me of a person who saw a
recreation of a twenty dollar gold piece as part of a movie,
then he says "Oh yeah, I saw one just like that.

1) _If_ the MP's memory turns out to be true, totally verified,
_it_ absolutly does not mean that it validates the AA film. It
only means that the MP saw a similar looking creature at the
crash site. I submit that since the Roswell story has been
around since 1978, and heavily publicized for the past many
years, ANY witness that comes forward should be carefully
checked out. Has anybody asked the MP for a copy of his military
record, and or enough information to get a copy of his record
from the National Personell Records Center so that his service
at Roswell or where ever can be verified against his story?

Remember Corso's claims that he was head of Army FTD for three
years, but when we actually got a copy of his service record, we
find he was only head for months as opposed to three years?

2) _If_ the AA film turned out to be true (as I recall Phillip
Mantle after investigating further has reached the conclusion
that at least the tent footage is a hoax) _it_ does not mean
that the MP's story is true fact never to be doubted.

3) As I recall according to Santilli (early on at least) the
crash connected with AA happened in late May of 1947 somewhere
else in NM and the AA occured in June of 1947 at Fort Worth
Texas. How does this fit with the MP's recollection of
apparently Roswell in early July

 >doing. I agree that the MP's story might be accepted better
 >(although not totally) if he were working with Stan or Jan or
 >David or KR but they also carry their own baggage. I can't
 >understand why my belief in the AA should disqualify me from
 >working with a witness who confirms that I'm correct. This

The witness doesn't confirm that you are correct in your
belief's about AA, it only confirms (if true) that he saw a
similar looking creature at the crash site.

 >witness contacted me because he realized that I would listen to
 >what he had to say with an open mind. I've encouraged the MP to
 >identify himself. I have never met him. I do not know his name,
 >only his email address. He's convinced me that he is who he says
 >he is. I know how limited his testimony is unless he's able to
 >convince you and others, too.

So based upon only an email address he has sold you on the fact
that everything he said is true. For all you know in fact and
reality the email address could be a 17 year old kid.

Instead of wasting further bandwith with this discussion, why
don't you go down and meet and talk to this purported MP in
person. Since the MP purportedly trusts you, and you are not
bringing any other people, I would think that this would be
fairly easy. If he says "No.", then I would suggest that you
should be suspicious.

 >As far as "twisted by retelling" is concerned, the MP's Story is
 >told in his own words. I've only edited for clarity. This is
 >the story he sent me. I have not twisted it or distorted it in
 >any way. After I edit it, I send it to him for approval. I want
 >this to be an open and honest process.

Personally I would like to see the unedited, un clear original
story.

 >If the MP does turn out to be exactly who he says he is, will
 >you then believe him? Will you take another look at the AA? I

Even if the MP is absolute truth never to be doubted, it still
doesn't mean the AA film is absolute truth never to be doubted.
It only means the MP is correct.

 >realize that you have not said that the AA is a hoax or fake
 >but if not, what is it? I don't think you, or many, have taken
 >a good close look at the evidence. No one will discuss the
 >"Discussion of the Debris" that M. Dennis wrote. That alone
 >should make even a skeptic take a second look at _everything_.
 >Have you examined Neil Morris's new research? There is much
 >evidence for the validity of the AA on the web for all to read
 >and examine but few do so.

 >Hopefully, the MP's testimony won't be rejected because it
 >validates the AA since the AA is only part the Roswell puzzle.

The MP's testimony from some nameless, faceless person over the
Internet..and everybody knows that anything you see or read on
the Internet is absolute fact never to be doubted :) even if
true will not and does not validate the AA film.

You have quite a ways go on this one Ed, I suggest that you
start as follows:

1) Meet the guy and interview him in person. Get the whole story
on tape and video. If the guy says no to an interview, you
should be suspicious

2) While there in person ask to see his uniform, military
service record if he has a copy and various other things that do
or don't lead credence to his story.

3) Get a copy of his service record and verify that he in fact
was stationed where he claimed he was.

4) If you don't trust Stan Fridman with his name (Personally I
would enlist Stan's or others help on a confidential basis, but
that is me) with the name of a witness of his magnitude get a
copy of the yearbook showing the MP's and see if the guy is
listed. Also get a copy of the Roswell AAF annual history for
that year which shows the MP's and various units that were
stationed at Roswell.

Cheers,

Robert







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               Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947

From: Roger Prokic <rprokic@pobox.com>
Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2000 22:41:00 -0600
Fwd Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 17:34:33 -0400
Subject: Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947


 >Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2000 17:50:25 -0500
 >From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net>
 >Subject: Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >>From: Ed Gehrman
 >>Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2000 11:50:23 -0800
 >>Fwd Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2000 18:25:38 -0400
 >>Subject: Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947

 >>>Date: Sat, 08 Apr 2000 17:46:40 -0400
 >>>From: Steven W. Kaeser
 >>>Subject: Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto

 >Let the man speak for himself.

 >Or perhaps he already is.... ;)

Roger,

You suppose Ed has multiple personalities, or he's hoaxing us
all about this MP?  <g>

I really think Ed is way too deep in the Santilli scam. He's not
serving the UFO community fairly, just as many before him.

The question I would like to know almost as much as whether
UFOs are alien craft, is "What is Ed's agenda?"



Roger Prokic
Principal RF Systems Engineer
Ball Aerospace & Technologies Corp.
Boulder, Colorado USA
-=[ sent from a Palm IIIxe computer & Multimail Pro v3.1C ]=-







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                    Re: Voyager Newsletter - Issue No. 10

From: GT McCoy <gtmccoy@harborside.com>
Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2000 22:02:58 -0700
Fwd Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 17:48:30 -0400
Subject: Re: Voyager Newsletter - Issue No. 10


 >Date: Sat, 08 Apr 2000 20:21:38 -0400
 >From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >Subject: Re: Voyager Newsletter - Issue No. 10
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

Hello, all Bruce ,James.

 >>From: James Easton <voyager@ukonline.co.uk>
 >>Date: Sat, 08 Apr 2000 01:47:27 +0100
 >>Fwd Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2000 22:25:57 -0400
 >>Subject: Voyager Newsletter - Issue No. 10

 >James wrote:

 >>It must be accepted that whatever Arnold witnessed, those nine
 >>objects were at least amazingly similar to a formation of AWPs.

 >It must also be accepted that there are major discrepancies with
 >the AWP hypothesis:

 >1) birds do not flash so brightly that their flashes can be
 >seen at a distance _greater_ than they themselves can be seen,
 >and, in any case, do not appear like sunlight reflected on a
 >mirror or "arc bright"

 >2) there is _no_ flight path for the birds which would match
 >Arnold's description of where they appeared to travel, from his
 >perspective, using any reasonable flight path for Arnold.
 >(Panicking and turning northward is not a reasonable flight path
 >for Arnold.)

 >If you can prove me wrong, do it. Draw a map!

<sinp>

Right on Bruce! I'm curious: why hasn't any one used a USFS
map or a Sectional map (Seattle for a big hint) or USGS map
(it's up to you to figgure out the alphabet soup, Pards.)

 >>This perhaps appreciably indicates what is clearly the most
 >>likely resolution of Arnold's encounter, especially adding the
 >>realisation that as Arnold's perception of distance was
 >>manifestly mistaken, his size and speed estimates can be
 >>expected to contain consequential misperceptions.

He knew the place the mountains, rocks, trees, and he knew
Pelicans from Trafalmadorian Scout ships!

 >This indicates nothing like a resolution of Arnold's encounter
 >until you can resolve points (a) and (b) above.

Why are we kicking a dead Pelican, along with the mystery M.P.?
I am trying to understand things, including what I saw. To keep
dragging up unsupportable and even wrong,but, almost right,
evidence, is not going to solve the mystery.

I have flown over the very route and Terrain that Arnold flew,
at altitudes similar and higher, and a lot lower too.

All I can say is: Dammit, stand and deliver, the whole thing.
Show where Arnold 's sighting is wrong and why. Pluck Pelican
feathers and dangle them in front of a Callair A-2 for that
matter. Have the moutaineer ride in one, looking down, better
yet, Mr. Easton you do it. I have, in everthing from a Piper Tri
Pacer to a DC-7. and because of my, ah, personal experience, I
believe Arnold.

GT McCoy

P.S. I'm tired of all this apparent rehashing of previously (and
I thought disposed of) hashed over garbage. The M.P. of Roswell
is also suspect, and to have a lighting bolt to the electrode of
Frankenpelican is a bit much.









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               Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947

From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 09:09:09 -0400 (EDT)
Fwd Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 17:50:05 -0400
Subject: Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947


 >From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman@psln.com>
 >Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2000 11:50:23 -0800
 >Fwd Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2000 18:25:38 -0400
 >Subject: Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947

<snip>

 >This witness contacted me because he realized that I would listen
 >to what he had to say with an open mind. I've encouraged the MP
 >to identify himself. I have never met him. I do not know his name,
 >only his email address.

Ed:

How did this man contact you?  Was it by e-mail, only?

Clear skies,

Bob Young







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               Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947

From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@rocler.qc.ca>
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 11:34:32 -0700
Fwd Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 17:52:01 -0400
Subject: Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947


 >Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2000 11:50:23 -0800
 >From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman@psln.com>
 >Subject: Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Date: Sat, 08 Apr 2000 17:46:40 -0400
 >>From: Steven W. Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
 >>Subject: Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>If I had a witness contact me with information that could lead
 >>to breakthrough in relation to the Roswell mystery, I would do
 >>my best to make sure that his story was investigated by one of
 >>the specialists in the field and documented carefully so that it
 >>wouldn't become twisted by the re-telling and lost to future
 >>generations.

<snip>

 >I've encouraged the MP to
 >identify himself. I have never met him.  I do not know his name,
 >only his email address. He's convinced me that he is who he says
 >he is. I know how limited his testimony is unless he's able to
 >convince you and others, too.

<snip>

Hello Ed,

Can we have the MP's email address or do you have exclusive
rights on this matter?

Before you answer, I will bet the following:

1. You will not reveal this information.

2. If you do, the email address will be hotmail, i.e. impossible
    to trace the owner.

3. If you don't, you'll have no good reason to do so.

I can smell the stench of all of this MP affair.  How is it you
can't?

Serge Salvaille







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                          Filer's Files #14 -- 2000

From: George A. Filer <Majorstar@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 14:02:04 -0400 (EDT)
Fwd Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 18:06:36 -0400
Subject: Filer's Files #14 -- 2000


Filer's Files #14 -- 2000,  MUFON Skywatch Investigations
George A. Filer,      Director, Mutual UFO Network Eastern
April 10, 2000,     Majorstar@aol.com  (609) 654-0020
Web Site at www.filersfiles.com. - Chuck Warren Webmaster.

UFO  REPORTS INCREASE IN CANADA
ANOTHER NEW ROSWELL WITNESS

I was at Roswell in 1947 to early 1950.  I was at the time a
gunner in the 393rd Bomb Squadron, 509th Bomb Group and a member
of Captain Frederick Ewing's B-29 combat crew with tail number
44-7301 (Straight Flush) ..  On Wednesday, July 9, 1947, our
crew transported a crate to Carswell Army Air Force Base, Fort
Worth, Texas in 1:55 minutes.  The mission and cargo was
classified.  The crate was hauled in the front bomb bay and
armed guards rode in that bomb bay with the crate. When I
removed the down lock, I saw a Major and a Technical Sergeant in
the bomb bay and some others in there.  They rode the whole trip
in the bomb bay and did not return with us.  We flew
unpressurized at about 8,000 feet.  Our bombardier made a safety
check of the shackles which held the platform secure.  Those
shackles were rigged so that the cargo could not be jettisoned.
The corporal tail gunner and I saw the crate when we removed the
down locks from the from the bomb doors.  The crate was covered
with a tarp when unloaded and taken away on a trailer at
Carswell.  I would guess the crate was about 12 x 6 x 6 feet.
The engineer and I talked about weight and balance.  They
evidently had not given him a firm figure on the weight.  He
said with a laugh, "As long as it isn't more than five thousand
pounds our center of gravity should be okay."   We knew that Ft.
Worth was to be our landing point, and we might get to see the
new B-36 bomber. Someone made a remark about carrying "The
General's Furniture".  There had also been rumors for a couple
of days about a spaceship crash, but we were only told it was
classified cargo and to stay back.

On the way home, I went forward to chat with Warrant Officer
Landry about minor problem with a prop.  We had the Curtiss
Electric's and there was concern that one of them was hunting a
bit. Major Jessie Marcel rode back to Roswell with us and I
talked briefly with him.  He was always interested in the
enlisted men on flight crews.  He wanted gunners to be good
observers when on long missions.  I don't think his questions
that day were probing.  We were useful mostly as scanners
because we had only tail guns. He asked if I was anxious to get
into B-36's?  We were told repeatedly not to talk of this
incident, not even to our wives.  I held that inside until 1988
when books began to appear.  To this day I am in touch with one
other member of our crew.  Most of the others are no longer
alive.  Major Ewing was killed in a B-47 crash in Florida in
1952.

Sometime afterwards, about three to six months later, the wives
began talking among themselves about the cleanup detail. This
originated from the wives of men on that duty. One such was a
neighbor of ours in July 1947.  They moved across town, but I
would sometimes see him and I ask him what he had seen out
there.  He was upset and told me, "You don't want to know."  I
think he was a baker because he would leave for work in the
early morning, like 0130 hours.  A time or two when I'd come in
from a late flight he would be standing on the corner waiting
for a ride.  They did not own a car.  Based on the wives gossip
we heard that he had seen a body.

Later, I became a pilot and while in SAC and was an instructor
in the Aero-clubs and moonlighting as a crop duster.  Aviation
has been my life.  While in SAC KC-97's at March AFB our crew
had two weird experiences, with something that officially wasn't
there.  You may put the story in your Filer's Files.  Thanks to
a Roswell B-29 gunner.

Editor's Note:  The government claims what was brought to Fort
Worth under guard was an unclassified Mogul Balloon that they
launched regularly from White Sands Proving Grounds with printed
instructions on the side for a reward if found.  Our witness
claims there were multiple guards inside the bomb bay.  Even
Atomic bombs did not normally warrant guards inside the bomb bay
and certainly not an officer with the rank of Major.  The
witness verifies parts of the message held in General Ramey's
hand such as the debris was forwarded to Fort Worth as ordered
below:

FOUR RAMEY MESSAGE COMPARISONS

Neil Morris writes from the University of Manchester in England.
Several distinguished groups are attempting to interpret the
writing on a message held in General Ramey's hand taken in the
Commander's 8th Air Force office by photographer James Bond
Johnson in July of 1947.  David Rudiak's sent his "take" of the
message and allowed me to include it in the comparisons of
readings taken from a message that takes up a tiny portion of
the photograph. It has taken fifty years and modern computers to
attempt to read the message.  There are several interpretations
of the message and we should emphasize that the various "takes"
are far from being set in stone and represent a "snap-shot" of a
work in progress as of April.  The interpretations, I am sure,
WILL change and evolve as time goes on.

1) CAPITALS denote firm interpretation.
2) Lowerspace are guesses but may be incorrect
3) "*" denote unknown letter,
4) My line format is to the best I can conclude, correct to the grid layout
of the typed text

(M) - Neil Morris at U. of Manchester.
(B) - Don Burleson's interpretation MUFON Journal March 2000.
(C) - Tom Carey/Don Schmitt interpretation 3/2000.
(DR) - David Rudiak  March/April 2000
(F) - Chris Farmer/Filer

Line 1.
???xxxx-xxx--x-xxxxxxxx xxx--xx-xxx xxxx xxx--xx-x xx xxx
(M)    reco VERY Was ROSWELl Head oIc giveN AS THE
(B)- RECO---- OPERATION WITH ROSWELL DISK 074 MJ--AT THE
(C)      RECO ... OPERATION                    AT THE
(DR)   recovery operations WEre fo und NEAR site two, at one

Line 2.
????xxx xxx xxx xxxxxxx xx xxx xxxxx xxx xxxxxxxxx xx xxx
(M)  ext 4*S EXp VIctIMS of THE WRecK and CONVAy ON TO THE
(B) - --- THE VICTIMS OF THE WRECK YOU FORWARDED TO THE
(C)  JULY 4TH THE VICTIMS OF THE WRECK YOU FORWARDED TO THE
(DR)  todaY All THE VICTIMS OF THE WRECK YOU FORWARDED TO THE

Line 3.   ???xxx xx xxxx xxxxxx xxx.
(M)            *** at FORT WORTH. Txe.
(B)     TEAM AT FORT WORTH. TXE.
(C)                 AT FORT WORTH. TEX.
(DR)     teaM AT FORT WORTH, TEX.

Line 4.
??xxxxxx xx xxx xxxxxx xxxx xxxx xxxx xxx xx-xxx xxxx-xx-
(M)     w**S** SOrTei *e**** thAT- ONUS raaF T&E A3**9* Landparty
(B)     ----SS-- ON THE "DISK" MUST- HAVE SENT -0- A-AM-- A-------D(C)  ESSOR
ON THE "DISK" MUST THUS SAVE FOR ATOMIC LABORATORY
(DR)  ----ses in THE "DISC" THEY will ship FOR Ac-as2 Arrived

Line 5.
??xxxx-xx xx-xxxx xxxxxx xx xxxxxx xxxxxxx xx xxxxxxxx xxx
(M)      SOught CRASHes *O**** are needed sITEone ** **s***** locate
(B)  -- URGENT. POWERS ARE NEEDED SITETWO AT CARLSBAD,NMEX--
(C)     URGENT. POWERS ARE NEEDED SITE TWO NW ROSWELL, N.MEX.
(DR)                   by b29 OR c47. bomber sq AsSist flights AT ROSWELL.
AS---

Line 6.
??xx-x-xxxxxx xxxx xxxx xxxxxxxx xxxxxxx xx xxxxx xxx xxxx
(M)   MIDDAY 509# TOLD newspaPeR segment of STORY Adv ****
(B)  - SAFE TALK NEWSPAPER MEANING OF STORY AND -----
(C)    SAFE TALK WANTED FOR MEANING OF STORY AND MISSION
(DR) (at noon)todaY SAID SenD MiStatEd rElease AS STORY And said
(F)       "TOLD GA50 UNKNOWN SGMNTS OF STORY...etc."__

Line 7.
??-xxxxxxx xxxx xxxx xxx xx-xx xxxxxxx xxxxxxxx xxxxx xxxx
(M)  LLY THrY EVEN PUT for AF WEATATN BALLOONS raDar WERE
(B)    ONLY SHOW ---- ----         BY WEATHER BALLOONS 400-KW WAVE
(C)     NEXT CREW OUT TODAY. WEATHER BALLOONS WOULD MAKE
(DR) (news)theY nEXt send out is of WEATHER BALLOONS would make

Line 8.  ??-xxxx-x xxxx xxx xxxx xxxxxxxxx xxxxx.
(M)                    And Land L*** denver ofww3
(B)       ---- -- 9 AND LAND L--- DENVER CREWS.
(C)          . . . 509 HAS LAND SURVEYOR CREWS.
(DR)     (a good)storY. ADD LAND Displayer crewS.

Line 9.     xxxxx-
(M)       ******
(B)       TEMPLE
(C)      "R RAMEY"
(DR)      rAMEy
(F)      TEMPLE
Thanks to Neil Morris, Dept, of Physics, University of Manchester

HANGER 18, FACT OR FICTION?

Robert Collins writes recent investigations have turned up new
information that may in fact point to a suspected place as
Hangar 18 at WP but it's called Hangar 23: Hangar 23 sits
between buildings 18F and 18A in the 18 Complex and so this
might make it easier to understand how the Hangar 18 folklore
developed?  As the story goes from sources the Roswell or
another Craft(s) (dimensions of 30 X 15 feet disc) were brought
into Hangar 23.  The floor of the hangar was removed and the
craft lowered into this newly dug out basement: A concrete floor
was then placed over this basement area containing the Craft.

Please see:

http://home.earthlink.net/~rcollins637/reports/wp_hangar18.htm

for further information and

http://home.sprintmail.com/~rigoletto/Sanctuary_Of_The_Birds.htm

for updates and reports.....

NEW JERSEY FIRE BALL

DELRAN -- Cyndi writes my boyfriend called and requested that I
"look outside" and asked, "Do you see anything?" I want to know
if anyone saw anything unusual on April 6, 2000, between 8:30
and 8:40 PM.  I saw a huge fiery blue-white ball with a massive
orange-hazed tail, which moved slowly across the sky and then
disappeared. We watched this thing for a good 5-10 minutes.
Shortly after, we observed military craft flying in formation
and, helicopter's flying low above the trees as if looking for
something.  Thanks, Cyndi.  medwomen1@aol.com

PENNSYLVANIA

KENNETT SQUARE - Dolores Ely says, I arise out of bed every
morning at 5:30 AM.  On March 8, 2000, I put the dog out and I
looked out to the southeast and saw two perfectly round lights
at tree top level.  They were going from west to east direction,
very slowly.  These lights were not luminous.  They were more
like flat opaque white in color.  They were at least 500 yards
away.  They were spaced about twenty feet apart from each other
horizontally moving very slowly.  The size at arm's length was
larger than my fist.  They disappeared behind a row of houses
down the street just as it was getting light outside.  Thanks
to: Bob Ely relyr@erols.com

ROSS TOWNSHIP -- Stan Gordon reports that on March 26, 2000, two
witnesses were standing outside in a Pittsburgh suburb when they
noticed an odd object moving across the sky at a high altitude
at 10:45 PM.  The object was shaped like a triangle and, "Had to
be huge" since it was very high up, but could clearly be seen as
it blocked out a portion of the clear sky as it moved.  The
triangular shape was defined by a number of grayish-white lights
that were non-blinking, and which all moved together.  The
object moved fast across the sky towards the northeast, and was
observed for around 10 seconds. No sound was heard as the object
passed overhead.

PITTSBURGH -- A man reported seeing a bright white light in the
sky at about 8:23 PM on March 30, 2000, in Shadyside.  The
object was circular or semicircular in shape and appeared
stationary.  Suddenly the light moved straight up into the sky
and "winked out."  The sighting lasted only 5-10 seconds, and no
sound was apparent.  Thanks to Stan Gordon.

FLORIDA UNEXPLAINED MARKS

LAKEWORTH - Carolyn writes that in 1982, I woke up one morning,
and discovered a very angry red circular mark on my back.  It
took several days to heal up, but I still have the mark.  I
couldn't understand it since I know it wasn't an insect bite and
I didn't have it when I went to bed! In 1987, I was out to
dinner with my ex-husband who got drunk.  I asked him to put me
in a cab to take me to his apartment, and I would wait for him
there.  From the time I got in the cab, till I woke up, on the
lawn, in front of his apartment, I have absolutely no memory of
the ride, or getting out of the cab, etc.  When I woke up, I was
on my back on the lawn, my clothing was in order, and my purse
was laying right beside me.  My money and credit cards were not
disturbed in any way.  I still watch the skies, but never had
another encounter.  Thanks to Carolyn R, njclamgirl@aol.com  and
Tom Sheets

ILLINOIS LIGHT AT SAUCER SITE

I saw last weeks Filer's posting on the Forest Homes, Illinois
saucers and was intrigued as it is fairly close to my home in
Florissant, Missouri.  I verified there is a Walnut Drive in
Forest Homes, and there is a large field behind it to the east.
I went there March 31, 2000, from 3:15 AM to 4:05 AM, Friday
morning out of curiosity.  At about 3:30 AM, I saw an amber
light fly by in the distance from east to west over a period of
two or three minutes.  The lighting was not like that of an
aircraft, and I heard no noise from the object.  Dogs in the
vicinity started barking while the object was in sight.  The
light was fairly low in the sky and the trajectory seemed
straight and smooth.  The weather was clear sky and calm air.
Thanks to Gary W.  74462.1175@compuserve.com.

ALABAMA date

TUSCALOOSA -- Three almost transparent, almost circular (amoebae
shaped), phosphorous neon-green entities flying in a triangular
formation. All 3 witnesses estimate that the altitude was 30
feet and the objects were about the diameter of a basketball
hoop, (2 feet) but were very thin from top to bottom. We watched
them suddenly appear from the north and fly in a straight line
over the house and past the trees to the south where they
disappeared.  Thanks to Peter Davenport NUFORC www.nuforc.com

TEXAS UFO BUZZES CAR

GRAHAM -- Peter B. Davenport the Director on the National
Reporting Center sent this dramatic sighting report.  On April
1, 2000, 96 miles northwest of Dallas a computer salesman and
his girlfriend observed a very bright light move towards them as
we traveled south on Highway 16. Suddenly an extremely bright
light was shinning off to our left.  The light was behind some
trees but was blinding me.  It rose in the air and headed
straight for our car as we traveled at 65 mph.  As it got to
about 300 yards away we both said, "What is that?"  I could see
that there was a cockpit or something under this huge black
shape.  I was screaming "What the Hell is that?" The cockpit was
shinning an incredibly bright light with some pulsating bands of
red lights.  The object approached and flew directly over the
car.  It easily matched our 65 mph speed and my friend looked up
and sort of gasped.  She said that the lights are alternating.
"What is this?"  As it traveled southwest off to some low hills
it disappeared.  We both saw the same craft.  When we got back
to the cabin in 30 minutes we took out some paper and drew
sketches of what we saw.  The drawings matched!  We called the
Sheriff's office in Graham and asked about aircraft or
helicopters?  He called the local small airport and they had
nothing up.  On Monday I called Carswell AFB and the DFW control
center and they had nothing out that way at that time.  A
trucker may have also seen the same object.  Thanks to Peter
Davenport for sending this report.  http://www.UFOcenter.com
Hotline: 206-722-30

TEXAS GREEN LIGHTS

ARLINGTON - Mike Harman reports seeing two bright green lights
traveling at high rate of speed with an orange companion dancing
around the lead object on April 6, 2000, at 9:35 PM.  What a
treat!  I had gone outside to observe the stars before going to
bed and was standing facing south and looking at the Orion
Nebula.  Something caught my eye coming over our house.  Looking
almost directly straight up I observed two bright green lights
similar to the color and brightness of a green traffic light.
The green object was traveling at what looked like about four
times the speed of jet aircraft and took twelve seconds to go
from almost straight up to completely out of sight to the north.
With binoculars I could see clouds behind the object and that
there was no body or wings visible.  I noticed an orange much
smaller light or object dancing very rapidly back and forth
going past the green objects in either direction.  What I have
described above was not the planet Venus or Jupiter, or a star.
I was able to see both planets during this sighting.  It also
was not an aircraft, balloon or a helicopter as there was no
sound. Thanks to Mike Harman   Mike_Harman@rocketmail.com.

OKLAHOMA FAMILY GAINS TIME ON TRIP

In Filers' Files #13 you tell about a family experiencing this
unusual phenomenon of gaining time.  You want to go to Jeff
Rense's Sightings.com and click on the archived shows and listen
to the show from March 7, 2000, were Joyce Murphy gives her
report on UFO's from Vermont or go to
http://playlist.broadcast.com/makeram.asp?id=365839.  On this
particular show a family in Vermont reports experiencing the
same  time gain phenomenon, and as such, may offer comfort and
or insight for the family in Oklahoma.  Thanks to Carmen
McLaren, Lead MUFON FI in Rensselear County, NY TroyCarm

CANADA FLYING SAUCER

YUKON -- Martin Jasek reports that on Thursday, March 30, 2000,
a man, a woman and a young boy were traveling along the Klondike
Highway from Whitehorse to the Village of Pelly Crossing, at
5:00 AM.  The sky was clear with a glow of predawn blue.  They
were nearing the end of Little Fox Lake and came around a sharp
right-hand bend near the base of a mountain.  Upon coming out
from the bend they saw at 300 feet away was a 35-foot in
diameter saucer, hovering about 200 feet off the ground!  They
observed it to be stationary on the right for five seconds and
than it shot across the road in front of their vehicle at
"incredible speed" and stopped instantly on the left side of the
road.  The witnesses said, "Nothing can move that fast," "in the
blink of an eye!"  It remained motionless for only another split
second and shot off even faster performing a 90-degree turn and
shooting off behind them.  One witness thought it went right
into the side of a mountain while the other thought it followed
the mountainous skyline.  The passenger said, "Come on, floor
it!" They eventually pulled over about 20 minutes later and both
were shaking. "We were more scared than excited!"  It's like we
caught it by surprise when we came around the corner," "it was
so advanced!"  "I'll never be the same!" were some of the
comments by the witnesses.  The saucer was a classic disc shape
with a dome on top.  The dome had two curved windows or lights
from which a beautiful ocean blue or aqua colored light was
shining.  The surface of the craft was "mirror like, silver,
translucent, shiny, glassy, reflecting the color of the sky."
It was as though the UFO was trying to "camouflage against the
background sky color."  "Had it been pitch black out I don't
think we would have seen the body of the craft, just the windows
or lights" the woman remarked.  As the UFO streaked in front of
their vehicle, the car headlights dimmed and their tape deck
stopped playing. They both wanted to check the time of their
sighting.  However, the woman's battery-operated analog watch
stopped (at 5:00 AM) and the man's digital watch got stuck in
chrono mode.  Other than the initial power drain, no additional
problems were noted with the truck.  They managed to get the
watches functioning after 5 minutes and the tape deck started to
work in 10 minutes.  No noise was heard emanating from the UFO.
It was about 1 hour and 35 minutes before sunrise. Thanks to
Martin Jasek mjjasek@yknet.yk.ca UFO*BC, Yukon Representative
www.ufobc.org martin@ufobc.

SUDBURY, ONTARIO -- On Sunday, March 26, 2000, my friend Todd
and I saw a single bright flash followed by a second one.  I got
my binoculars and Todd saw two more flashes near the Big Dipper
at 8:30 PM.  A man in a pickup truck stopped and we all saw four
flashes at different points in the sky.  I call these lights
"Jumpers" because they seem to flash once in one spot, then
flash again somewhere else sometimes a third or fourth time,
then disappear for good.

SOUTHWESTERN ONTARIO -- On March 30, 2000, I noticed a star in
the eastern sky which appeared to be moving and also becoming
larger at 1l:40 PM.  I brought it to the attention of my friend
and we got out of my vehicle to watch.  The light came directly
at us and became very brilliant and enlarged to the size of a
basketball.  It made a perpendicular course change and traveled
up into the sky where it made another course change and flew up
into space. This all took place in the matter of minutes without
making any sound. The sky was clear with many stars and
airplanes visible. Thanks to Murray

VANCOUVER, BC CANADA CHEMTRAIL -- A very large 'chemtrail'
display was seen again over Vancouver and surrounding areas on
April 3, with several X and other parallel patterns at an
apparent fairly low altitude. I myself witnessed this and took
photos.  Some of the 'plumes' were very wide, with eight
initially at 1:30 PM.  Some were crossing in large Xs, and
others were in parallel trails throughout the afternoon.  The
sky became diffused with a "milky haze." Reports are coming in
from across Canada and the US. Thanks to: Paul Anderson

AUSTRALIA

SYDNEY -- After a 3-month lull, strange craft are flying again
over Australia in They have the same laser-like, white pulsing
light, quick vertical movements.  They avoid nearby planes.
Hence the increase in reports is probably real, and possibly
worldwide. I learned recently of a glowing orange UFO which
collided with a police car here in 1987  Thanks to Red Setter

THE SHUTTLE DISCOVERY STS-48 MYSTERY

By this time, most people have heard of the odd events of
September 15 and 16, 1991, which occurred during the STS-48
fight of space shuttle Discovery.  Some claim that all of the
objects seen are UFOs.  NASA claims that all of the objects are
ice and debris sparkling in the light of the rising sun.  NASA
further claims that any directional changes in the motion of
these objects are caused by an automated firing of the aft RCS
jets aboard the shuttle.  To be sure, some of what is observed
in the videos is ice, and debris and the RCS jet did fire during
the time frame in question.  NASA has the computer records to
prove this.  However, NASA's blanket explanation of the events,
based on these facts, doesn't cover everything, which took
place. This scene called event #2, is shot from the forward
payload bay camera, and was taken at local sunrise over the
Philippine Islands.  South is up, the Sun is to viewer's left,
and we see the limb of Earth, some stars over the horizon, and a
series of bright objects above the dark portion of Earth.  Some
of these bright dots are dirt on the camera lens.  Some others
are drifting ice and or debris.  These pop into view as the sun
comes up.  Then, what I believe to be a much more distant object
rises up out of the clouds well after the other objects have
appeared.  As this object travels south, and gains altitude, a
flash is seen from the aft direction of Discovery.  Shuttle
computer records verify that this flash is an RCS jet firing,
which is done periodically to MAINTAIN ship's attitude.  Thus
there is no noticeable change relative to the horizon.  Some of
the objects in view appear to respond to the expanding exhaust
plume, and are appropriately diverted from their previous
course.  However, the distant object suddenly diverts 135
degrees and speeds out into space, followed by two streaks, one
of which might have hit it had it not moved out of the way.
NASA claims that the relative motion of this object is caused by
the RCS jet firing but this makes no sense.  The RCS jets are
mounted on the extreme nose and tail of the Shuttles.  They fire
vertically, and in the vacuum of space, the exhaust plume
expands upward in a teardrop shape.  The aft thrusters are some
20 to 25 feet away from the camera, and even further away the
debris field.  Objects nearer than the controversial one are
barely affected.  The RCS gas plume could not have greatly
influenced our anomalous object at the distance it MUST be from
the jet plume.

Therefore, I conclude that the object must be independently
propelled.  There are two streaks of light, which seem to be
aimed at the object in question.  It has been claimed that these
streaks are some kind of new particle beam or laser weapon.
Granted, the streaks do resemble a weapon salvo.  But, they can
not be lasers or particle beams.  Both of these type beams move
at the speed of light, which would render them invisible in
space, or at best, they would appear to the human eye as a solid
shaft (like a Star Trek Phase beam) rather than something seen
to move from left to right at a 45-50 degree angle.  Further,
these angles preclude their origin being the RCS jet firing way
back on the tail of the ship.  Therefore, I conclude that the
streaks are something other than energy weapons.  I know of no
missile technology capable of moving at the velocities observed
in the video.  So we are left with what? If these are alien
craft, perhaps they are shooting at each other for some unknown
reason.  In any case, something strange and unidentified with
any Earth based phenomenon took place.  And NASA is using the
demonstrable fact that some of the objects and occurrences are
linked to ice, dirt, and control jets to dismiss the entire
event.  Something is being deliberately covered up here.  Thanks
to Jeff Challender

PHOTOGRAPH BOOKLET of some of the best UFO shots available and
data on their propulsion systems. $10.00 by US Navy Commander
Graham Bethune. Send money order or check to G. Filer 222
Jackson Rd Medford, NJ 08055

US GOVERNMENT UFO PROOF RELEASED: Audio tapes of a genuine UFO
Alert at Edwards Air Force base and studied by the Foreign
Technology Division at Wright Patterson Air Force Base, are now
available for distribution to the public.  Sam Sherman's audio
documentary tape called EDWARDS AIR FORCE BASE ENCOUNTER on the
night of October 7, 1965, uses the actual voice recordings
provided by the Air Force.  During this event 12 high tech
luminous UFOs invade secure air space and came down low over the
runways at Edwards AFB.  Tower operator Sgt. Chuck Sorrels
spotted them and notified the Air Defense Command.  Sgt. Sorrels
is heard on the original tapes and in a new segment where he
verifies the event as it is heard on the archival recordings.
The UFOs are described and a decision is made to launch F-106
fighter interceptors.  You are there for an important part of
UFO history.  Hear it for yourself, it's the best UFO tape ever
made.  Tape cost is $14.95 each plus $2.00 for shipping -- total
$16.95 -- (for overseas orders-out of US - add $6.00 shipping
cost -- total -- $20.95) you can send either a personal check or
money order to: Independent International Pictures Corp, Box
565, Dept. GF, Old Bridge, New Jersey 08857.

MUFON UFO JOURNAL For more detailed monthly investigative
reports subscribe by contacting Mufon@aol.com. Mention I
recommended you for membership.  Filer's Files is Copyrighted
2000 by George A. Filer, all rights reserved.  Readers may post
items from the Files on their Web Sites provided that they
credit the newsletter and its editor by name and list the date
of issue that the item appeared.  Send your letters to
Majorstar@aol.com.  Sending mail automatically grants permission
for us to publish. Please state if you wish to keep your name or
story confidential.






   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 >
   Apr > Apr 10

                 Re: Auto Immune Diseases With The Abduction

From: Kathy Hotchner <khotchner@uswest.net>
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 10:14:50 -0700
Fwd Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 18:01:43 -0400
Subject: Re: Auto Immune Diseases With The Abduction


 >Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2000 16:24:30 -0400 (EDT)
 >From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >Subject: Auto Immune Diseases With The Abduction Phenomena
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >Has anyone on this list, data which correlates Auto Immune
 >diseases with the Abduction Phenomena? We are particularly
 >interested in such illnesses as Multiple Sclerosis, Lupus and
 >Arthritis.  These diseases are indicative of an _overactive_
 >immune system.


Hello Jim,

There is an interesting article on the Cause site about abductees
and Chronic Fatigue Syndrome atL http://www.caus.org/mc050899.htm

Member Commentay: CFS & Alien Abduction

On this Saturday, CAUS shares with you the following commentary
by Max Burns:

Is there a connection between "Myalgic Encephalomyelitis" or
M.E. (Chronic Fatigue Syndrome) and the alien abduction
scenario?

That's quite a big question to ask in these days of ridicule
from those who seek to conceal the truth, whatever that truth
may be? "The truth is a three sided blade" -- the truth,
according to the pro ETH people; the truth, according to the
hard line skeptic's; and the governmental bodies. Somewhere
inside all of this the truth may exist, but it all boils down to
one thing, the hard line. Skeptics love to quote like a load of
Philip Klass clones i.e. "Where's your evidence."

Perhaps I may well have discovered some. I will let the readers
be the judge of that for now. It has come to light through my
own research into the subject of UFO's & alien abduction and it
would appear at first glance that there may well be a link with
"Myalgic Encephalomyelitis" (Chronic Fatigue Syndrome) and the
alien abduction scenario. I have during the course of my work
over the last two years been a friendly ear to an abductee, a
thirty-two year old female from the UK who as well as having a
long history of medical problems has been diagnosed with M.E.
(Chronic Fatigue Syndrome). Even more interesting is that she is
a member of an abductee group that meets once a month in London.
This group has 20 members who attend regularly. These people are
a fair cross section of the populace that travels from all
around the country to the meetings.

They are also from different ethnic and cultural backgrounds and
all have different doctors. Although I am good friends with the
woman mentioned above I also know other members of this group.
About three months ago I was interested to learn that out of the
20 members of the group fourteen members of the group have all
been medically diagnosed with "Myalgic Encephalomyelitis"
(Chronic Fatigue Syndrome).

After doing some cursory investigation work I have confirmed
from B.R.A.M.E.(Blue Ribbon Association Myalgic
Encephalomyelitis, a world-wide network for this illness with
groups in 18 countries) that the ME/CFS Charities Alliance
CONSIDERS that the report's estimate of 500,000 - 1 million
sufferers in the UK (1-2% of the population), is a vast
overestimate of the true situation.

The data used includes studies of patients with chronic fatigue,
rather than chronic fatigue syndrome. Out of the total figure
about 25% of sufferers are housebound.


What is CFS?

Chronic fatigue syndrome (CFS) is an emerging illness
characterized by debilitating fatigue (experienced as exhaustion
and extremely poor stamina), neurological problems and a variety
of flu-like symptoms. The illness is also known as chronic
fatigue immune dysfunction syndrome (CFIDS) and outside of the
USA is usually known as myalgic encephalomyelitis (ME). In the
past the syndrome has been known as chronic Epstein-Barr virus
(CEBV).

The core symptoms include excessive fatigue, general pain,
mental fogginess and often gastrointestinal problems. Many other
symptoms will also be present however they will typically be
different among different patients. These include: fatigue
following stressful activities, headaches, sore throat; sleep
disorders, abnormal temperature and others. The degree of
severity can differ widely among patients and will also vary
over time for the same patient. Severity can vary between
getting unusually fatigued following stressful events to being
totally bedridden and completely disabled. The symptoms will
tend to wax and wane over time. This variation, in addition to
the fact that the cause of the disease is not yet known, makes
this illness difficult to diagnose.

What causes CFS?

The cause of the illness is not yet known. Current theories are
looking at the possibilities of neuroendocrine dysfunction,
viruses, environmental toxins, genetic predisposition, or a
combination of these. For a time it was thought that
Epstein-Barr Virus (EBV), the cause of mononucleosis, might
cause CFS but recent research has discounted this idea. The
illness seems to prompt a chronic immune reaction in the body,
however it is not clear that this is in response to any actual
infection -- this may only be a dysfunction of the immune system
itself. A recent concept promulgated by Prof. Mark Demitrack is
that CFS is a generalized condition which may have any of
several causes (in the same way that the condition called high
blood pressure is not caused by any one single factor). It *is*
known that stressors, physical or emotional, seems to make CFS
worse. Some current research continues to investigate possible
viral causes including HHV-6, other herpes viruses,
enteroviruses, and retroviruses. Additionally, cofactors (such
as genetic predisposition, stress, environment, gender, age, and
prior illness) appear to play an important role in the
development and course of the illness. Many medical observers
have noted that CFS seems often to be "triggered" by some
stressful event, but in all likelihood the condition was latent
beforehand. Some people will appear to get CFS following a viral
infection, or a head injury, or surgery, excessive use of
antibiotics, or some other traumatic event. Yet it's unlikely
that these events on their own could be a primary cause.

Is CFS a "real" disease? At this early point many practicing
clinicians remain unconvinced that CFS is a genuine illness,
although it is slowly increasing in acceptance. The reluctance
is due in part to the facts that no specific cause has yet been
found, there is no observable marker that doctors can use to
specifically identify the illness, and most doctors are not yet
familiar with the peer-reviewed research which does tend to
legitimize this disease.

Emerging illnesses such as CFS typically go through a period of
many years before they are accepted by the medical community,
and during that interim time patients who have these new,
unproven illnesses are all too often dismissed as being
"psychiatric cases." This has been the experience with CFS as
well. But many top-level researchers are showing that this is a
distinct, organic illness. This includes research by Anthony
Komaroff (Harvard), Jay Levy (UCSF), Nancy Klimas (U. Miami),
Andrew Lloyd (U. New South Wales), Stephen Straus (NIH), and
others.

Who gets CFS? Few studies address this question. Several show
that 70 to 80 percent of CFS patients are women, although some
researchers say that these are normal figures for any
immune-related illness. There are a couple of points here.

1. These figures seem to match up with the male/female ratio of
people who claim to have been abducted; 70 to 80 percent are
female.

2. The 1-2% of the population which may have CFS also matches
the figures postulated by Dr. David Jacobs and Bud Hopkins among
others that claim that this figure could be a fare
representation of the population of the planet that are being
abducted.

Are these correlations in the figures just coincidence?

Some studies indicate that CFS, is less common among lower
income people and minorities, but critics point out that the
average CFS patient sees so very many doctors before they can
get a diagnosis that only those with great access to medical
care get counted in such studies, thus giving a bias with regard
to income and race. NEW ENZYME FOUND IN CFS PATIENTS CFIDS ASSOC
OF AMERICA TEMPLE RESEARCHERS DISCOVER NEW HUMAN ENZYME: A Novel
Enzyme Found in CFS Patients May Alter Cellular Processes. Dr.
Robert Suhadolnik and his research team at Temple University
School of Medicine reported today that studies of patients with
chronic fatigue syndrome (CFS) have led to the identification of
a new human enzyme. Suhadolnik, a professor of biochemistry and
a member of the university's Fels Institute for Cancer Research
and Molecular Biology, says of the new findings: "We are greatly
encouraged by the trend we see. All CFS patients tested have
this new enzyme, while none of the healthy controls do." The new
findings, reported at a research meeting sponsored by the
American Association for Chronic Fatigue Syndrome, are based on
preliminary data from a limited number of patients. However,
larger studies are already underway and have attracted financial
support from the National Institutes of Health.

Chronic fatigue syndrome, also known as chronic fatigue and
immune dysfunction syndrome (CFIDS), is a complex illness
characterized by incapacitating fatigue, neurological problems
and a constellation of other debilitating symptoms. The cause of
the illness is unknown and, since no drug has been found to be
effective against CFS, treatment is limited to alleviating the
symptoms. CFS affects at least 500,000 American adults and
children. The newly discovered enzyme may explain common
observations in patients with CFS: an inability to control
common viruses (like Epstein-Barr virus and human herpes virus
and an inability to maintain cellular energy. According to
Suhadolnik, the viral pathway in which this newly discovered
protein is active, known as the RNase L antiviral pathway, may
control both processes. "This new enzyme in CFS may not function
as well as the normal RNase L found in healthy people. It may
explain why CFS patients' bodies have a hard time maintaining
the energy necessary for cellular growth. We are hopeful that
ongoing further studies will lead to a better understanding of
some other processes at work in this puzzling illness." The new
findings add to mounting evidence of subtle, yet striking,
abnormalities found in people with CFS. "Because the new enzyme
has been found in CFS patients but not in healthy controls, it
is potentially the basis for a laboratory test for CFS, which is
diagnosed today only through its clinical symptoms," says Dr.
Antonio Goncalves, associate vice provost for science and
technology at Temple University. The university has filed a
patent application for such a test and is seeking a corporate
partner to further develop and license the test. Goncalves and
Suhadolnik caution, however, that additional studies of much
larger patient populations are required before the clinical
utility of the test can be demonstrated. This study was funded
by the National Institutes of Health and The CFIDS Association
of America, the nation's largest and most active charitable
organization dedicated to conquering CF(ID)S.

Further study required the 14 people who are involved in this
group, diagnosed with M.E., actually represents 70% of the
group. As this 70% figure is extremely high this must warrant
further study to try to examine all possible causes of this
anomalous figure. If any good is to come from the gathering of
this potential data linking the alien abduction scenario and
"Myalgic Encephalomyelitis" then of course it will be required
that my investigation is meticulous in the way in which I gather
the data. For the analysis of the data I will endeavor to employ
the help of professional people from various backgrounds of the
hallowed halls of academe which are applicable to the illness
and all possible variables. I have made a short list and will be
approaching these people directly.

Although I am sure you are now aware of my stance on the
situation, if this hypothesis is correct then it is imperative
that I do the research and back up what really is at the moment
a thought, based on some cursory information. If the data
represents the connection then this could well be a back door to
Pandora's box. Of course the opposite is also true that the data
may reveal something completely different although the data with
regard to the anomalous substantial increase in the percentage
of the population of earth who have "Myalgic Encephalomyelitis"
(Chronic Fatigue Syndrome) is 1 to 2%. Against this 70% figure
which has surfaced with regard to the twenty abductees in the
group that I have looked at, I feel that a figure of 10,000
abductees globally would have to submit data to gauge an
accurate study as to whether there is without doubt a connection
between "Myalgic Encephalomyelitis" (Chronic Fatigue Syndrome)
and alien abduction.

I am asking for the assistance of abductee support groups, if
you are reading this, to contact myself directly. What this
possible connection is could be a number of things. In the
interest of not jumping to conclusions, it could be that:

1. The abduction scenario is a direct symptom and brain disorder
and part of the many parts of "Myalgic Encephalomyelitis"
(Chronic Fatigue Syndrome) and that all people who are claiming
abduction have this illness, but the symptoms in some abductees
are minute compared to others and that they do not know that
they have the illness. However if that were the case it would
open up the question of why does a large number of sufferers of
"Myalgic Encephalomyelitis" (Chronic Fatigue Syndrome) claim to
have been abducted by Aliens such as in the initial test group.

2...That alien abduction is yet another symptom to this illness,
a symptom which can manifest itself in the human brain as a
memory, this in itself if true, would for me anyway, be quite an
astounding discovery that perhaps

3..."Myalgic Encephalomyelitis" (Chronic Fatigue Syndrome) is a
direct result of the alleged alien implants, which it has been
claimed by a large number of abductees to have been placed
inside of their heads, and in some way be causing the illness
because of the implants interruption by proximity to certain
areas of the brain, causing the brain to send out incorrect
signals to the body and the cause-effect of this is the human
body receiving the incorrect information to function normally
causing the multifaceted symptoms of "Myalgic Encephalomyelitis"
(Chronic Fatigue Syndrome).

4...There is even a hypothesis that these aliens are in some way
feeding off the human life force draining energy from the
alleged victim of these abductions, and the symptoms after these
alleged incidents, do bear a striking resemblance to the
symptoms of "Myalgic Encephalomyelitis" (Chronic Fatigue
Syndrome).

Or it could be that 5...the abduction scenario is all in the mind of
the abductee and that "Myalgic Encephalomyelitis" (Chronic Fatigue
Syndrome) in the cases where abduction is also being claimed, is a
direct result of the depression being caused by believing that they
are being abducted by aliens.

6...Perhaps the alleged abductee's body chemistry is being altered and
this, as the discoverer called it, is a Unique Random Enzyme/Protein,
and is a further manipulation of the DNA structure of the human race
to make it more compatible for the long term hybrid program which may
be causing the side effects that manifest themselves in the symptoms
of CFS.

Maybe it is something all together different from the from above with
the data collated after the cursory investigation of the twenty
abductees who are members of the same group. However, this has shown
that in this group at the percentage of people diagnosed with."Myalgic
Encephalomyelitis" (Chronic Fatigue Syndrome) to be 68% above the
national average. It has to warrant further investigation.

I will be contacting relevant parties who can offer correct medical
and psychological comment on the data when I have finished collating
it. I believe that if the cursory evidence gathered from this global
investigation returns the same high anomalous figure of or around 70%
this may well lead to the opening or at least unlocking of Pandora's
Box.

The objective is to supply undeniable data, and in the ideal world to
force enlisting the scientific community to investigate this further,
with an over all view to forcing the world governments to acknowledge
that we are being visited byEBEs and that the abductions claimed by so
many are in a large number of cases what I personally believe to be
true. I am in particular looking at the new enzyme that is present in
the bodies of all people diagnosed with CFS and in the 1000 people
tested who did not have CFS the enzyme was not present.
My research is progressing slowly into what may well turn out to be a
connection with the identification of a new human enzyme and the alien
abduction scenario. Although I am only speculating at this time, I
feel that there is a distinct possibility that the enzyme will be
present in all abductees and that all abductees actually have CFS or
Fibro and that the symptoms are so minute in some abductees that they
do not realize that they have the illness. Ultimately the end process
would be to obtain testing of a group of abductees who do not believe
that they have CFS or Fibro, to see if the enzyme is also present in
the abductees which I believe it may be as I feel that abductees body
chemistry is being altered and this, as the discoverer called it, a
Unique Random Enzyme / Protein, is a further manipulation of the DNA
structure of the human race to make it more compatible for the long
term hybrid program which may be causing the side effects that
manifest themselves in the symptoms of CFS.

Until the hard data has been collected and analyzed I cannot
present circumstantial case to Dr. Robert Suhadolnik and his
research team and others in the research field, as you and I
both know what a sticky wicket we are batting off to start with
in the research field of alien abduction.

I have kindly been given web space by Marilyn Ruben who runs the
AAER Abductions website, for a survey of abductees to gauge some
global figures on the number of people with CFS who also claim
alien abduction.

The URL is:

http://www.abduct.com/aaer/_aaer.htm

I hope that upwards of 10,000 abductees will take the CFS survey on
the site during the next twelve months. We may see that the huge
increase in the percentage of abductees that have CFS is a global
pattern and returns the same high anomalous figure that it has with my
initial investigation, circa 68% above the global national average per
capita of 1-2% of the populous.

"That I may be right." Hold that thought.

Hope this helps,

-----

Kathy







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   Apr > Apr 10

               Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947

From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman@psln.com>
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 10:14:42 -0800
Fwd Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 18:14:58 -0400
Subject: Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947


To list,

I've been asked by Stan and Roger and several others why I
believed the MP if I didn't know his name, never met him nor had
proof that he even existed. I'll try to explain.

We got to know one another over a period of time. I could tell
by the way he wrote, the expressions he used and his writing in
general that he was an old person, at least 80 or so. I could
tell from the way he approached me that he wasn't trying to make
a name for himself nor was he bragging and such. And as Roger
has pointed out: why would he come to me? No one listens to me;
I'm that AA true believer! He'd never make a name for himself
with me. So why even bother?

He said he wanted to let me know in a friendly manner that I was
absolutely correct about the AA. As we communicated, about every
other day, I began to learn more about who he was as a person
and what he knew, in general, about UFOs and the AA. He knew
what his son had brought him, magazine articles, and they
discussed it; he learned some things from TV learning and
history channels. But he did not have an extensive knowledge.

He began to trust me and we became friendly. All that time I had
no idea of what he had to offer, only that he knew something. He
kept telling me that I was on the right track and that he knew
the DOD was involved. I thought that this was a strange fact
because I knew that the DOD wasn't formed yet (officially). But
about that time I also learned that the AA film can seals were
from DOD.

Several week ago I asked him if he wanted to tell me his story
and he suddenly said he would, but he wasn't very good at
writing and would I ask him a few questions to get him going,
which I did. He then told the story I sent on to the list. Those
are his own words. None are mine unless noted. The only editing
I did was to put everything in some order. When I asked him
questions, I'd put his complete answer, unedited, where it
belonged. Other than that, this is his story.

The only problem was over the location. He said Roswell
location, not the Foster ranch and I asked if it was the plains
and he said yes the plains and I said that I didn't want to put
words in his mouth; was he sure of the word "plains" and he said
"well yes because Pappy said the plains." But after closer
questioning I realized that he didn't know anything about NM
geography so in reality he didn't have the slightest idea where
he was... just out in the country. Then he told me about not
going through any towns and all that he wrote in part 2.

I would not have sent his story on to UpDates and risk the
bombast that is now coming down, if I didn't believe that the MP
was a very important witness. I wanted the list to work with the
information he was giving me and everyone could be a part of the
process. Of course I had hopes that it would also validate the
AA. I still find it hard to believe that the AA isn't used to
study the Roswell event. There's so much to learn from the AA
and the debris. It's a crying shame that its not being utilized.

If it turns out that he's not who he says he is then I was
fooled. I'm willing to accept that. But I believe it was worth
the risk, since I had such a strong feeling that he was telling
the truth as he knew it. He's scared; I don't know why folks
can't understand the fear and guilt these witnesses must
experience. The DOD told him, in clear and certain terms, that
for the good of his country and family, he needed to keep quiet.

Here's another problem that we've talked about. Even if he reveals
himself and he is who he says he is, will folks then believe his
story.

I don't know. That's what we'll have to discover as this
unfolds. It's not all tied up neatly and packaged in a book. The
MP still has some things to say. This is a living, breathing
investigation into whether the MP is who he says he is and
whether his story is true. If it is, then we should take another
look at both the AA and the MJ 12 documents. I have no idea what
the outcome will be.

Ed







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   Apr > Apr 10

                              1947 UFO Mishaps

From: Kenny Young <ufo@FUSE.NET>
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 17:19:16 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 18:17:42 -0400
Subject: 1947 UFO Mishaps


A new database of 1947 UFO crashes can now be reviewed on-line.
I hope it casts light on a ufological vein that I suspect
warrants further exploration. The focus of this database is
weighted with physical cases, not abounding with "anonymous
insider" stories.

To review the '47 Crash Database, go to:

http://home.fuse.net/ufo/47index.html

Additional reports, input or comments are welcome.

Thanks,
Kenny Young

--
UFO Research
http://home.fuse.net/ufo/








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   Apr > Apr 10

               Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947

From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net>
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 17:58:09 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 22:17:26 -0400
Subject: Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947


 >From: Ed Gehrman
 >Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2000 15:48:32 -0800
 >Fwd Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 17:20:41 -0400
 >Subject: Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947

 >>Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2000 17:50:25 -0500
 >>From: Roger Evans
 >>Subject: Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947
 >>To: updates@sympatico.ca

Previously I had implored Ed to stop editing the "MP" (mystery
person?) postings because:

 >>Otherwise, you'll always have the fallback position of claiming
 >>he was misunderstood because of the way you edited his comments.

To which Ed replied:

 >When have I done that? You've no reason to imply that I'm
 >dishonest in any way.  My only 'crime' is defending the AA.

Well, Ed, I guess that depends on how you define "dishonest".

No, I don't think you steal from people or cheat on your loved
ones. On the other hand, the archives are brimming with examples
of your "intellectual dishonesty" regarding your belief in AA. I
don't think there's anyone on this list that will dispute your
somewhat casual disregard for facts or lack thereof. I won't get
into this all over again. But there is absolutely nothing that
you have stated about AA that you have ever proven or even
provided reasonable evidence for. Your belief in AA is simply
that; nothing but a belief that borders on religion.

But the real heart of the matter is your repeated act of
throwing down the same well worn gauntlet, challenging us to
"disprove" your beliefs. Any reasonable person would agree it is
you, and you alone, who shoulders the responsibility for
providing proof. That you refuse to aknowledge this is the very
definition of "intellectual dishonesty" as far as I'm concerned.
In fact, it's downright childish. From what I've seen so far,
your treatment of this MP saga is just as simplistic and naive.

Continuing, I had stated:

 >>I'm still waiting to hear your/his explanation about the
 >>contradicting accounts regarding the flood lights. Were they
 >>on when he arrived at the crash site or were they off? Or is
 >>this the first in many upcoming examples of "faulty editing"?

 >In reply to the post of Roger Evans:

 >The flood lights had been up facing away from the crash site
 >when we arrived. They had NOT been turned on facing the craft
 >until later, so I was able to see the glow. My only guess is
 >that they wanted to make sure no one got close enough to the
 >site as they made plans to get closer to the craft.

 >The MP

Well, you know, this is _exactly_ what I'm talking about, Ed.
The new explanation may or may not be true. The problem is we'll
never know, will we? "Re-tooling" of a previous, contradictary
statement is one of the first signs of a weak story. And let's
face it, Ed; the man first said it was "all dark before the
floodlights were put up". All dark is all dark, dude.

Later,

Roger Evans







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   Apr > Apr 10

                 Re: Auto Immune Diseases With The Abduction

From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 16:14:45 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 22:27:19 -0400
Subject: Re: Auto Immune Diseases With The Abduction


 >Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 10:14:50 -0700
 >From: Kathy Hotchner <khotchner@uswest.net>
 >Subject: Re: Auto Immune Diseases With The Abduction Phenomena
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2000 16:24:30 -0400 (EDT)
 >>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >>Subject: Auto Immune Diseases With The Abduction Phenomena
 >>To: updates@sympatico.ca

<snip>

 >Perhaps I may well have discovered some. I will let the readers
 >be the judge of that for now. It has come to light through my
 >own research into the subject of UFO's & alien abduction and it
 >would appear at first glance that there may well be a link with
 >"Myalgic Encephalomyelitis" (Chronic Fatigue Syndrome) and the
 >alien abduction scenario. I have during the course of my work
 >over the last two years been a friendly ear to an abductee, a
 >thirty-two year old female from the UK who as well as having a
 >long history of medical problems has been diagnosed with M.E.
 >(Chronic Fatigue Syndrome). Even more interesting is that she is
 >a member of an abductee group that meets once a month in London.
 >This group has 20 members who attend regularly. These people are
 >a fair cross section of the populace that travels from all
 >around the country to the meetings.

<snip>

Hi,

I'm not sure if I have anything exactly new to add to this
discussiuon or not, but I'd like to recommend two books that are
right up this alley: 'UFOs: Psychic Close Encounters' and
'Electric UFOs' by Albert Budden.  Budden posits that the
abduction phenomenon is an immunological symptom brought on by
exposure to EM fields.  He also authored a shorter book titled
"Aliens and Allergies."



=====
Mac Tonnies
239 E. Sea
Independence, MO 65050
816-833-5910
macbot@yahoo.com
http://www.geocities.com/macbot/mtvi.html







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   Apr > Apr 10

               Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947

From: Josh Goldstein <clearlight@t-online.de>
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 01:29:52 +0100
Fwd Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 22:36:20 -0400
Subject: Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947


 >Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2000 15:48:32 -0800
 >From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman@psln.com>
 >Subject: Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2000 17:50:25 -0500
 >>From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net>
 >>Subject: Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947
 >>To: updates@sympatico.ca

<snip>

 >>Otherwise, you'll always have the fallback position of claiming
 >>he was misunderstood because of the way you edited his comments.

 >When have I done that? You've no reason to imply that I'm
 >dishonest in any way.  My only 'crime' is defending the AA.
 >History will prove me right. I can wait. Ed

<snip>

Ed, I have read many posts regarding your alleged witness. This
has been too much of a fray, somewhat reminiscint of the AA
alleged cameraman, numerous Roswell alleged witnesses,
(Kauffman), etc.

This fray has gone into far too many areas before the
identification and providence of this person is established.
Stan Friedman has suggested a fair way to establish this man's
identity. How about him confidentially comparing (if the shoe
fits), the alleged witness's name, Roswell photo and a current
photo, a copy of current ID, and a signed attestation of
identity from your man.

What does your man fear if he goes public? Have you seen any
people who formerly held security clearances suddenly not return
from a desert trip? No. Is Leavenworth prison full of such
people who had loose lips after they were in the service? No.
What do other potential witnesses have to fear for themselves
and their families? Nothing regarding talking about Roswell.
Why, that's probably the most talked about subject in history.

So, is he real or not? That he must answer before hosting and
answering any other questions. It is that or nothing. If he can
prove he was indeed an MP at Roswell during that period, then
the onus is on him to provide evidence or leads to evidence to
show his story is anything more than his story. That may involve
others.

In my view, if there is anything the UFO field needs, it is for
the people who claim they had security clearances and witnessed
UFO related activity (including the alleged Greer stable), to
just go public as a group.

Forget about Congress, the courts.

These people should just go public and be deposed by attorneys
under oath.

The first area that would be established would be proving their
identities.

The next would be establishing evidence. The witnesses have
nothing to fear (I hope).

If the government had any grounds to go after them, they would
create the hostility of the public and suffer the consequences.
In short, the truth could not ultimately be kept hidden, I hope.
Their testimony would open a door that could never be closed
again.

I hope Steven Bassett or someone else remembers that it has been
a long, long time since the McDonald Congressional hearings.
Whatever has taken place in recent years (Greer, Rockefeller
briefings, lobbying, etc.) has not cracked the government nut.

Perhaps Mr. Bassett has something strong up his sleeve on the
hill. Otherwise, if we have the real witnesses and real
evidence, let's go for it. I mean way beyond little steps like a
briefing of a few congressional representatives and the noble
Sturrock report in the private sector.

Whatever Peter Gersten is up to these days, it is not making
progress in the courts. I mean these witnesses (if they exist)
going public en masse. Ed, that could include your man, if he is
legitimate. That would also bring others out of the woodwork.


Ed, and others on UpDates, let's not dally in questions to this
alleged witness until he establishes who he is. They seem rather
spurious if we are batting around hot air. Of course, that is a
major sport within Ufology.

I believe there are people out there who seriously look at more
meaty matters in this field and, like me, have no patience for
games of hot air.

I'm not making accusations, Ed. If we don't do our research via
legitimate standards of investigation, then what is the point?
To generate hot air posts? I am hoping for better than that
here. Most of Ufology could permanently keep a massive fleet of
hot air balloons aloft. What a giant waste of gas and gasbags.
Let's do better. I'm not from Missouri but I sure know their
motto.

Who is he? Please answer me with nothing else than that proof.
Only then please show me what evidence he may have. Otherwise,
I'd prefer to hear no more about it.

Thanks,
Josh Goldstein
"Happy Heathens Anonymous"










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               Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947

From: James Easton <voyager@ukonline.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 00:55:24 +0100
Fwd Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 22:49:06 -0400
Subject: Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947


Regarding:

 >Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 10:14:42 -0800
 >From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman@psln.com>
 >Subject: Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

Ed wrote:

 >He kept telling me that I was on the right track and that he
 >knew the DOD was involved. I thought that this was a strange
 >fact because I knew that the DOD wasn't formed yet (officially).
 >But about that time I also learned that the AA film can seals
 >were from DOD.

Ed,

If it helps to understand the true context...

It's only speculation that those seals/stamps might be
representative of the DoD and impossible to determine from their
poor quality. Remember, the images were only provided as
photocopies of labels allegedly from the film boxes - the
supposed boxes themselves being 'no longer available' when Bob
Shell was to examine them.

All speculation aside, what remains unquestionably factual is
that the DoD did not evolve until more than two years after
'Roswell'.

There's still copies of the claimed film canister stamp and
possible comparative seals on my web site at:

http://web.ukonline.co.uk/voyager/aa_qa.htm

Extracted from the accompanying article, this is the bottom line:

"The labels are curious in one particular respect; each of them
bears a stamp which shows the insignia of either the National
Military Establishment (NME) or the Department of Defense (DoD).

The NME seal did not come into existence until October 1947 or
later and when the NME was redesignated as the DoD in August
1949, the seal was retained.

However, although the stamp bears that insignia, the name of the
organisation shown on the stamp does not appear to be either the
NME or the DoD.

Unfortunately, the stamp imprint shown on each of the photocopies
is of poor quality and the name of the organisation is illegible,
however, the general consensus is that the last of three words
shown is AGENCY. The second word could be INTELLIGENCE and this
raises an interesting possibility that the organisation shown is
the CENTRAL INTELLIGENCE AGENCY, the letter spacing conceivably
matching the stamp.

The CIA was part of the NME, which also encompassed the army,
navy and air force. Both the CIA and the NME were formed under
the National Security Act of 1947, a Congressional act signed
into law on 26 July 1947. The NME seal was approved shortly
thereafter, but the CIA did not have there own, distinctly
different, seal until one was approved by President Truman on 17
February, 1950.

During the period from July 1947 to February 1950, could the CIA
have used an unofficial seal, or stamp, which was effectively the
seal of the NME with the name of the NME replaced by the CIA's?

My written query to the Chief Historian at the CIA brought a
response from the Center for the Study of Intelligence which
confirmed, "I have seen no instance where the CIA used a National
Military Establishment seal prior to President Truman's 1950
approval of the present Agency seal".

One further possibility, and conceivably the "best fit", is the
DEFENCE INTELLIGENCE AGENCY, however, the DIA did not became
operational until 1 October 1961 and this would not equate with
the story of the reel's origins".
[End]

Even if the stamps and 'alien autopsy' footage, etc. were
genuine, it doesn't alter the fact that the DoD simply didn't
exist until 1949. The earliest possibility for the seal/stamp
depicted on the purported film labels is the National Military
Establishment, not the DoD.

You rationale why there might be evidence for the DoD at the time
of 'Roswell' is therefore unfortunately mistaken, as is of course
your alleged witness's claim that he clearly recalls being
debriefed by the DoD.


When this 'film canister seal' was investigated in 1996, the
following documentation and information was provided to myself by
a friend in the US, who has considerable expertise in military
history:

The Department of Defense was NOT created by the National
Security Act of 1947. Following is from _Encyclopedia of the U.S.
Military_ and is verifiable through DoD fact sheets available on
the WWW:

"National Security Act of 1947 - Congressional act signed into
law on 26 Jul 1947 (5 USC 101, 102,5312(3), 5313(16-18), 5315(7-
9, 14-16); 10 USC 101(5,7), 131-33, 141,143, 171, 718, 743, 3011,
3012, 3061, 5012, 5013, 8011-13; 50 USC 401-5, 409-11). It
created the National Military Establishment (NME) composed of the
Department of the Army, the Department of the Navy, an
independent Department of the Air Force (all separately
administered executive departments); a Secretary of Defense, the
Joint Chiefs of Staff (with a Joint Staff of 100 officers); the
Central Intelligence Agency (50 USC 403), and the National
Security Council. The stated intent of this establishment was "To
promote the national security...and for the coordination of the
activities of the National Military Establishment with other
departments and agencies of the Government concern with the
national security."

"National Security Act amendments of 1949 - Congressional
amendment to the National Security Act of 1947, signed into law
10 August 1949. It was intended to mandate more forcefully the
cooperation, unity, and flexibility of the separate military
departments. To that end, the National Military Establishment was
redesignated the Department of Defense, the executive military
departments were redesignated as subordinate military departments
and an Office of the Secretary of Defense was mandated. The act
also included the Vice President as a member of the National
Security Council, increased the powers of the Secretary of
Defense, established the position of Chairman of the Joint Chiefs
of Staff, increased the personnel strength of the Joint Staff
from 100 to 210 officers, and created the offices of Comptroller
and Deputy Comptroller in the service departments."

So, a thing called "the Department of Defense" did not exist
before August 1949.
[END]

I spoke with several people in the Office of the Secretary of
Defense and the nice people in the Historical Division provided
me with a copy of the following document:

Joint Army and Air Force
DEPARTMENTS OF THE ARMY AND THE AIR FORCE

Bulletin No. 23
Washington 25, D.C., 22 August 1949

SEAL, DEPARTMENT OF DEFENSE.-1. The following memorandum from the
Secretary of Defense, 15 August 1949, is published for the
information and guidance of all concerned:

In accordance with the provision of Section 202 of the National
Security Act of 1947, as amended by Section 5 of Public Law 216,
81st Congress, August 10, 1949, and with the approval of the
President, the seal of the National Military Establishment is
hereby redesignated as the seal for the Department of Defense
with the change of designation. The seal is described as follows:

An American eagle is displayed facing to the right. Wings are
horizontal. The eagle grasps three crossed arrows and bears on
its breast a shield whose lower two-thirds carries alternating
white and red stripes and whose upper third is blue. Above the
eagle is an arc of thirteen stars with alternating rays. Below
the eagle is a wreath of laurel extending to the eagle's right
and wreath of olive extending to the eagle's left. On an
encircling band is the inscription "Department of Defense" and
"United States of America."

When the seal is displayed in color, the background is to be of
medium blue with the eagle and wreath in natural colors and the
arrows, stars, and rays of gold. The encircling band is to be
dark blue with gold edges and letters in white.

The American bald eagle, long associated with symbolism
representing the United States of America and its military
establishment, has been selected as an emblem of strength. In
facing to the right, the field of honor is indicated. The eagle
is defending the United States, represented by the Shield of
thirteen pieces. The thirteen pieces are joined by the blue
chief, representing the Congress. The rays and stars above the
eagle signify glory, while the three arrows are collectively
symbolic of the three component parts of the Department of
Defense. The laurel stands for honors received in combat
defending the peace represented by the olive branch.

LOUIS JOHNSON
Secretary of Defense
[End]

So, the seal came into being in 1947 as the seal of the National
Military Establishment. The seal, unchanged in basic design, was
redesignated as the seal of the Department of Defense when that
Department was established in 1949. [END]


Bottom line - it's unequivocal that the DoD didn't exist until
late 1949.


James.









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   Apr > Apr 10

               Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947

From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net>
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 19:14:51 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 22:53:34 -0400
Subject: Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947


 >From: Ed Gehrman
 >Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 10:14:42 -0800
 >Fwd Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 18:14:58 -0400
 >Subject: Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947

Previously, Ed wrote:

 >I've been asked by Stan and Roger and several others why I
 >believed the MP if I didn't know his name, never met him nor had
 >proof that he even existed. I'll try to explain.

 >We got to know one another over a period of time. I could tell
 >by the way he wrote, the expressions he used and his writing in
 >general that he was an old person, at least 80 or so. I could
 >tell from the way he approached me that he wasn't trying to make
 >a name for himself nor was he bragging and such. And as Roger
 >has pointed out: why would he come to me? No one listens to me;
 >I'm that AA true believer! He'd never make a name for himself
 >with me. So why even bother?

 >He said he wanted to let me know in a friendly manner that I was
 >absolutely correct about the AA. As we communicated, about every
 >other day, I began to learn more about who he was as a person
 >and what he knew, in general, about UFOs and the AA.

<snipped with respect, Ed>

 >I don't know. That's what we'll have to discover as this
 >unfolds. It's not all tied up neatly and packaged in a book.
 >The MP still has some things to say. This is a living,
 >breathing investigation into whether the MP is who he says he
 >is and >whether his story is true. If it is, then we should
 >take another look at both the AA and the MJ 12 documents. I
 >have no idea what the outcome will be.


Ed, I'm not trying to be a smart-ass, but it is evident that you
_do_ have an idea of what the outcome will be. After all, in
your previous posting about the MP you wrote:

 >History will prove me right. I can wait.


It is obvious that you have already made up your mind about the
validity of AA and the validity of the MP. What I do not
understand is how you come to such conclusions considering the
absolute, total lack of evidence to support your belief. The
lengthy passage above doesn't explain in the slightest why you
should trust this guy. All it indicates is that he's a nice guy.
Of course, as you pointed out, Santilli was a nice guy, too.
Strangely, by your own admission, you also claim:


 >This is a living, breathing investigation into whether the MP
 >is who he says he is and whether his story is true.


Well, which is it? Either you believe the guy or you don't!

At least with AA you had something that you could, maybe, argue
was "subjective". But this MP is just a voice in the dark; a
phantom. For all you know, this is some ya-hoo that has read
about your ongoing battle over AA and is setting you up for the
biggest fall yet. Why do you hesitate to check this guy out?
What is there to be afraid of?

For the record: I would love to be proven as a short sighted
fool for not believing in AA or this MP.

I should think that, alone, would be enough impetus to drive you
for solid info on this guy.

Later,

Roger Evans








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   Apr > Apr 11

                              Sighting 04-10-00

From: Champ Bradford <mars_180@hotmail.com>
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 22:27:52 -0500 (CDT)
Fwd Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 08:54:17 -0400
Subject: Sighting 04-10-00


Sighting Submission from theufoconspiracy.com

This sighting report was submitted
Monday, April 10, 2000 at 10:58:17

_____________

Name: removed

City: Durant

State:: OK

Country: USA

Phone Number: 580 *removed*

Date of Actual Experience: 04/07/00

Approx. time of experience: 8:30 PM

Location of experience: Back yard

Brief description: Hovering blinking lights

Brief description of emotions/feelings: this is strange!

Drugs or Alcohol involved?: No

Experience missing time?: No

Personal Contact?: No

Experience this before?: No

Reported to police or officials?: No

Need help coping: No

Would you like to keep your submission anonymous?: Yes

Can someone contact you?: No

Description of experience: Two hovering lights that moved close
together and then stayed in that same position for a long time.
Then a red light shot between them and moved off into the
distance.

______

If you would like to be removed from this list then please reply
to this message with Remove in the subject line.

Thanks,

Champ Bradford
www.theufoconspiracy.com









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   Apr > Apr 11

               Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947

From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 23:16:32 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 08:56:58 -0400
Subject: Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947


 >>Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2000 15:48:32 -0800
 >>From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman@psln.com>
 >>Subject: Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>


Ed,

Let's reduce this to one simple question:

Who was your MP's commanding officer on a day to day basis
_before_ the alleged UFO crash?

Just ask him to tell us who he worked for - nothing more,
nothing less. Who gave him his assignments on a regular, daily
basis, nothing to do with Roswell?

If he won't - or can't do that - then I strongly suggest you let
this alleged "witness"  lapse back into the obscurity which he
otherwise so richly dserves - and tell him so.

No statements from you, please, that you're convinced your MP is
who you believe he is.

Tell him to put up or shut up - and you don't have to be nasty
about this. Go back to my first question: Who gave him his
orders on a day to day basis, regardless of any alleged Roswell
event?

If he can't - or won't - answer this question, then kiss his ass
goodbye and don't bother the rest of us with any more misleading
follow-ups. There are only so many rabbit trails we can all
traverse.

Who did your MP serve under?

Put up or shut up!

Other questions may follow.

Bootz









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               Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947

From: Royce J. Myers III <ufowatchdog@earthlink.net>
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 21:24:50 -0700
Fwd Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 09:00:31 -0400
Subject: Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947


Regarding this whole story: put up or shut up. I, for one, have
had enough of this non-sense. Either Ed's witness comes forward
or he doesn't. End of story.

Bringing this story to the list in the first place was a huge
mistake without having some kind of verification as to who this
so-called witness really is.

Oh, did I tell everyone here? I'm 95 and I was stationed in
Roswell, but the crash really happened in Soccoro where I was a
military cook and I slung my best mess at the aliens and Harry
Truman. What? You don't believe me? Sheesh... I'm so hurt by
that.

Regards,

Royce J. Myers III

"Don't Trip On Your Open Mind... or alleged Roswell witnesses
that can't prove anything."

eXpos: The Watchdog of UFOlogy
http://home.sprintmail.com/~rjm3  (eXpos: The Watchdog of UFOlogy)
http://home.earthlink.net/~ufowatchdog (UFO Hall o' Shame)










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   Apr > Apr 11

               Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947

From: James Easton <voyager@ukonline.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 00:55:24 +0100
Fwd Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 09:04:40 -0400
Subject: Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947


Regarding:

 >Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 10:14:42 -0800
 >From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman@psln.com>
 >Subject: Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

Ed wrote:

 >He kept telling me that I was on the right track and that he
 >knew the DOD was involved. I thought that this was a strange
 >fact because I knew that the DOD wasn't formed yet (officially).
 >But about that time I also learned that the AA film can seals
 >were from DOD.

Ed,

If it helps to understand the true context...

It's only speculation that those seals/stamps might be
representative of the DoD and impossible to determine from their
poor quality. Remember, the images were only provided as
photocopies of labels allegedly from the film boxes - the
supposed boxes themselves being 'no longer available' when Bob
Shell was to examine them.

All speculation aside, what remains unquestionably factual is
that the DoD did not evolve until more than two years after
'Roswell'.

There's still copies of the claimed film canister stamp and
possible comparative seals on my web site at:

http://web.ukonline.co.uk/voyager/aa_qa.htm

Extracted from the accompanying article, this is the bottom
line:

"The labels are curious in one particular respect; each of them
bears a stamp which shows the insignia of either the National
Military Establishment (NME) or the Department of Defense (DoD).

The NME seal did not come into existence until October 1947 or
later and when the NME was redesignated as the DoD in August
1949, the seal was retained.

However, although the stamp bears that insignia, the name of the
organisation shown on the stamp does not appear to be either the
NME or the DoD.

Unfortunately, the stamp imprint shown on each of the
photocopies is of poor quality and the name of the organisation
is illegible, however, the general consensus is that the last of
three words shown is AGENCY. The second word could be
INTELLIGENCE and this raises an interesting possibility that the
organisation shown is the CENTRAL INTELLIGENCE AGENCY, the
letter spacing conceivably matching the stamp.

The CIA was part of the NME, which also encompassed the army,
navy and air force. Both the CIA and the NME were formed under
the National Security Act of 1947, a Congressional act signed
into law on 26 July 1947. The NME seal was approved shortly
thereafter, but the CIA did not have there own, distinctly
different, seal until one was approved by President Truman on 17
February, 1950.

During the period from July 1947 to February 1950, could the CIA
have used an unofficial seal, or stamp, which was effectively
the seal of the NME with the name of the NME replaced by the
CIA's?

My written query to the Chief Historian at the CIA brought a
response from the Center for the Study of Intelligence which
confirmed, "I have seen no instance where the CIA used a
National Military Establishment seal prior to President Truman's
1950 approval of the present Agency seal".

One further possibility, and conceivably the "best fit", is the
DEFENCE INTELLIGENCE AGENCY, however, the DIA did not became
operational until 1 October 1961 and this would not equate with
the story of the reel's origins".
[End]

Even if the stamps and 'alien autopsy' footage, etc. were
genuine, it doesn't alter the fact that the DoD simply didn't
exist until 1949. The earliest possibility for the seal/stamp
depicted on the purported film labels is the National Military
Establishment, not the DoD.

You rationale why there might be evidence for the DoD at the
time of 'Roswell' is therefore unfortunately mistaken, as is of
course your alleged witness's claim that he clearly recalls
being debriefed by the DoD.


When this 'film canister seal' was investigated in 1996, the
following documentation and information was provided to myself
by a friend in the US, who has considerable expertise in
military history:

The Department of Defense was NOT created by the National
Security Act of 1947. Following is from _Encyclopedia of the
U.S. Military_ and is verifiable through DoD fact sheets
available on the WWW:

"National Security Act of 1947 - Congressional act signed into
law on 26 Jul 1947 (5 USC 101, 102,5312(3), 5313(16-18), 5315(7-
9, 14-16); 10 USC 101(5,7), 131-33, 141,143, 171, 718, 743,
3011, 3012, 3061, 5012, 5013, 8011-13; 50 USC 401-5, 409-11). It
created the National Military Establishment (NME) composed of
the Department of the Army, the Department of the Navy, an
independent Department of the Air Force (all separately
administered executive departments); a Secretary of Defense, the
Joint Chiefs of Staff (with a Joint Staff of 100 officers); the
Central Intelligence Agency (50 USC 403), and the National
Security Council. The stated intent of this establishment was
"To promote the national security...and for the coordination of
the activities of the National Military Establishment with other
departments and agencies of the Government concern with the
national security."

"National Security Act amendments of 1949 - Congressional
amendment to the National Security Act of 1947, signed into law
10 August 1949. It was intended to mandate more forcefully the
cooperation, unity, and flexibility of the separate military
departments. To that end, the National Military Establishment
was redesignated the Department of Defense, the executive
military departments were redesignated as subordinate military
departments and an Office of the Secretary of Defense was
mandated. The act also included the Vice President as a member
of the National Security Council, increased the powers of the
Secretary of Defense, established the position of Chairman of
the Joint Chiefs of Staff, increased the personnel strength of
the Joint Staff from 100 to 210 officers, and created the
offices of Comptroller and Deputy Comptroller in the service
departments."

So, a thing called "the Department of Defense" did not exist
before August 1949.
[END]

I spoke with several people in the Office of the Secretary of
Defense and the nice people in the Historical Division provided
me with a copy of the following document:

Joint Army and Air Force
DEPARTMENTS OF THE ARMY AND THE AIR FORCE

Bulletin No. 23
Washington 25, D.C., 22 August 1949

SEAL, DEPARTMENT OF DEFENSE.-1. The following memorandum from
the Secretary of Defense, 15 August 1949, is published for the
information and guidance of all concerned:

In accordance with the provision of Section 202 of the National
Security Act of 1947, as amended by Section 5 of Public Law 216,
81st Congress, August 10, 1949, and with the approval of the
President, the seal of the National Military Establishment is
hereby redesignated as the seal for the Department of Defense
with the change of designation. The seal is described as
follows:

An American eagle is displayed facing to the right. Wings are
horizontal. The eagle grasps three crossed arrows and bears on
its breast a shield whose lower two-thirds carries alternating
white and red stripes and whose upper third is blue. Above the
eagle is an arc of thirteen stars with alternating rays. Below
the eagle is a wreath of laurel extending to the eagle's right
and wreath of olive extending to the eagle's left. On an
encircling band is the inscription "Department of Defense" and
"United States of America."

When the seal is displayed in color, the background is to be of
medium blue with the eagle and wreath in natural colors and the
arrows, stars, and rays of gold. The encircling band is to be
dark blue with gold edges and letters in white.

The American bald eagle, long associated with symbolism
representing the United States of America and its military
establishment, has been selected as an emblem of strength. In
facing to the right, the field of honor is indicated. The eagle
is defending the United States, represented by the Shield of
thirteen pieces. The thirteen pieces are joined by the blue
chief, representing the Congress. The rays and stars above the
eagle signify glory, while the three arrows are collectively
symbolic of the three component parts of the Department of
Defense. The laurel stands for honors received in combat
defending the peace represented by the olive branch.

LOUIS JOHNSON
Secretary of Defense
[End]

So, the seal came into being in 1947 as the seal of the National
Military Establishment. The seal, unchanged in basic design, was
redesignated as the seal of the Department of Defense when that
Department was established in 1949. [END]


Bottom line - it's unequivocal that the DoD didn't exist until
late 1949.


James.









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   Apr > Apr 11

               Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947

From: Sharon Kardol <sharon@hotmix.com.au>
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 13:25:27 +0800
Fwd Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 09:10:02 -0400
Subject: Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947


 >Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 01:29:52 +0100
 >From: Josh Goldstein <clearlight@t-online.de>
 >Subject: Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>


 >>Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2000 15:48:32 -0800
 >>From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman@psln.com>
 >>Subject: Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>>Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2000 17:50:25 -0500
 >>>From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net>
 >>>Subject: Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947
 >>>To: updates@sympatico.ca

 ><snip>

 >>>Otherwise, you'll always have the fallback position of claiming
 >>>he was misunderstood because of the way you edited his comments.

 >>When have I done that? You've no reason to imply that I'm
 >>dishonest in any way. My only 'crime' is defending the AA.
 >>History will prove me right. I can wait. Ed

 ><snip>

Josh, you wrote -

<snip>

 >So, is he real or not? That he must answer before hosting and
 >answering any other questions. It is that or nothing. If he can
 >prove he was indeed an MP at Roswell during that period, then
 >the onus is on him to provide evidence or leads to evidence to
 >show his story is anything more than his story. That may involve
 >others.

I personally don't think it's right that some innocent personnel
from back then should be dragged into without permission. This
is someone's account of something that happened to him over 50
years ago. "Coming out" so to speak could cause a great deal of
harm to the families being ostracized in both personal and
career lives (eg the reputation that goes with being a UFO
nut)...

And what proof has the MP said he has? Does he have pieces of
the craft? Photographs? Just because you prove he is who he says
he is doesn't make the story any more real or false than it is
now. It is still a story from someone way back then. Sure he may
gain some credibility but how do we know he's not just jumping
on the bandwagon (I am not saying he is) how do we know he's not
just creating a tale based on all the stuff he's read (I'm not
saying he is).

My point isn't to bash this poor guy. I don't know him from a
sack of taters, so I'm not going to cast any asspertions either
way. But will proving his identity make the story anymore legit?

(and please these are questions from a querying mind, not a bash
of anyone)

Forever wondering...
Cheers
Sharon









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               Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947

From: Sharon Kardol <sharon@hotmix.com.au>
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 13:35:04 +0800
Fwd Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 09:13:38 -0400
Subject: Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947


 >Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2000 10:54:14 -0500 (CDT)
 >From: Brian Cuthbertson <brianc@fc.net>
 >Subject: Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >In case Ed isn't following the Voyager thread, note that in it
 >Stan Friedman writes ...

 >>Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2000 08:54:22 -0300
 >>From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Voyager Newsletter
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>3. I have previously offered and will here again offer to check
 >>in Confidence my copy of the 1947 RAAF base yearbook if Ed will
 >>provide the MP's name in confidence via eMail at
 >>fsphys@brunnet.net via Phone 506-457-0232; via fax
 >>506-450-3832. I can then send him a copy of the page with the
 >>picture, if it is there.

 >Ed: you really, really should do this. I think most will agree
 >Stan can be trusted to hold a confidence. And if he finds the
 >name, that'll be pretty hard to argue with.
 >
 >Are you willing to try this and live with Stan's result?
 >If not, I don't see why anyone should give you or the MP
 >much credence.

 >-Brian C.

I am just curious. This MP said he had just been moved to the
base 4-5 months before the event. Is it possible to find out in
the yearbook those who were transfered to that base at that time
(how many MPs could there be?) Maybe it might at least narrow
down the field?

Forever wondering...
Cheers
Sharon






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                       On A Planet Far, Far Away.....

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 03:24:43 -0400 (EDT)
Fwd Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 09:18:32 -0400
Subject: On A Planet Far, Far Away.....


Today, in a small portion of a galaxy far, far away, something
happened. A signal was received by a station listening for a
signal out of the void. A lonely life form on a lonely planet,
listening for millennia, finally received the awaited signal. It
was their equivalent of our "WOW" signal, only this one was
repeated on a weekly basis.

It was interesting that this "weekly" signal was identical each
and every time it came through on some obscure channel, very low
frequency, and in some kind of strange (to our creatures on
Planet X) kind of modulation. Somehow, the strange beings who
were transmitting this signal, were transmitting it by
modulating the frequency.

Very strange.

Getting back to this high strangeness, the weekly transmission
was critical to this race of peace loving people. Weekly, you
see, coincided with their religion. It was their practice for
millions of years, to pray each and every week to the god of
peace. Weekly for them, would be daily for us. For their week
consisted of only one day in their calendar. In fact, their sun
revolved around their planet once per week. This also was
strange, as most planets are in orbit about their suns, not the
other way around.

In fact, in the deep dark history of this civilization, wars
were fought over whether their planet rotated about their sun or
their sun orbited around their planet.

And when it was all sorted out, the discovery was made and
proven to be ... (cue the heavenly music) ... sun orbits around
planet.

Anyway, this signal from another planet, located (they thought)
at the other end of the galaxy, in some obscure, outer ring of
the massive spiral galaxy, just as they were, only on the
opposite side.

After much arguing over what the signal meant, the scientists
and philosophers of Planet X finally agreed that the strange
sounds meant something. Apparently, the beings on the planet
doing all the transmitting, actually spoke. Speech was not
unknown to the people of Planet X. In their past, they also
spoke through an orifice now nearly non existent, and made
sounds such that the sounds' modulation had meaning. But at no
time did these people ever use this method of communications to
transmit information. This was deemed to be rather crude.

And besides, the people of this planet had no sense of humor, no
sense of emotion, in fact, they had no "feelings" as do humans.
They were quite surprised to observe such unsophisticated
gibberish as was being sent to them from the other side of their
galaxy. And as much as these people argued and fussed, threw
hissey fits and got angry, something they almost _never_ did,
they could not figure out why a race of people would wish to
communicate in this crude way. So inefficient. So, so, ancient.
Very bad. Very politically incorrect on their world and on the
other worlds in their portion of the galaxy. In fact, the
actions of these people closely resembled the actions of a form
of life called "UFO Researchers" on the planet transmitting.
Wierd, eh?

But the biggest problem of all, the one which caused the most
arguments, the one which nearly sent this peaceful race again to
the battle field, was the translation of the words sent billions
of miles away. No one was able to come close. The words were,
alas, completely foreign. The words were, "Lucy, I'm home!"

Jim Mortellaro







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               Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947

From: Michel M. Deschamps <ufoman@ican.net>
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 03:40:29 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 09:27:00 -0400
Subject: Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947


 >Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2000 22:03:44 -0400 (EDT)
 >From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
 >Subject: Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >>Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2000 11:50:23 -0800
 >>From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman@psln.com>
 >>Subject: Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>>Date: Sat, 08 Apr 2000 17:46:40 -0400
 >>>From: Steven W. Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
 >>>Subject: Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>


 >3) As I recall according to Santilli (early on at least) the
 >crash connected with AA happened in late May of 1947 somewhere
 >else in NM and the AA occured in June of 1947 at Fort Worth
 >Texas. How does this fit with the MP's recollection of
 >apparently Roswell in early July

A large majority of the crash/retrieval stories where bodies are
mentioned make reference to Roswell, which may be behind all the
confusion about _this_ alien body or _that_ alien body.

I thought that maybe Roswell was the appointed central location
where bodies from different New Mexico crash/retrievals would be
sent to be autopsied in order to minimize _exposure_ to
additional witnesses (the fewer, the better).

Perhaps the Roswell base wasn't well-equipped, or maybe the
medical facilities weren't up to par, but it might have made
more sense for the military to bring the bodies at the same
place without delay, where a team of doctors or surgeons could
do their job instead of having everything spread out to
different bases.

So you basically wind up with bodies from different crashes that
are brought in to Roswell, witnessed by people who later report
that they saw the _Roswell alien_. Hence the confusion and
multiple stories of recovered aliens.

If I remember correctly, the Roswell creatures were reported to
have only four fingers (no thumb); these probably came from the
corona site or the plains of San Augustin, or someplace else
altogether.

The AA creature has six fingers/six toes and may have come from
a totally different crash site.

Has anybody else ever thought about it from this perspective?

Michel M. Deschamps







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               Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947

From: Neil Morris <neil@adm1.ph.man.ac.uk>
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 11:05:55 +0100
Fwd Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 15:14:44 -0400
Subject: Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947


 >Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 00:55:24 +0100
 >From: James Easton <voyager@ukonline.co.uk>
 >Subject: Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >Regarding:

 >>Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 10:14:42 -0800
 >>From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman@psln.com>
 >>Subject: Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >Ed wrote:

 >>He kept telling me that I was on the right track and that he
 >>knew the DOD was involved. I thought that this was a strange
 >>fact because I knew that the DOD wasn't formed yet (officially).
 >>But about that time I also learned that the AA film can seals
 >>were from DOD.

 >Ed,

 >If it helps to understand the true context...

 >It's only speculation that those seals/stamps might be
 >representative of the DoD and impossible to determine from their
 >poor quality. Remember, the images were only provided as
 >photocopies of labels allegedly from the film boxes - the
 >supposed boxes themselves being 'no longer available' when Bob
 >Shell was to examine them.

<snip>

 >LOUIS JOHNSON
 >Secretary of Defense
 >[End]

 >So, the seal came into being in 1947 as the seal of the National
 >Military Establishment. The seal, unchanged in basic design, was
 >redesignated as the seal of the Department of Defense when that
 >Department was established in 1949. [END]

 >Bottom line - it's unequivocal that the DoD didn't exist until
 >late 1949.


All,

But arn't we all assuming the stamp's were placed on the boxes
at or about the time of the Roswell Event? Is there anything to
say they were not placed there later? The alleged cameraman was
still in service and supposedly still holding the film for some
years after Roswell and the US services went through radical
changes of structure shortly after July 1947. Is it not feasable
that if our cameraman's command structure could have changed as
many did, would not a new broom "stamp" it's authority on what
it had inherited?.

Even if these AA films were "unauthorised" prints and slightly
"iffy", were better to "loose" a few reels of film than in an
"official" and identified stock collection?. Just a thought.

Neil.


--
*        *         *         *         *         *         *         *
Neil Morris.       /101101101 Virtual Bumper Stickers Inc 10110101010\
Dept of Physics.   1                                                 1
Univ of Manchester 0                                                 0
Schuster Labs.     1  Computer Programmers DO IT with BITS of BYTES  1
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UK.                \0101010110010110110010110101101011011110101011010/
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              E-mail: neil@adm1.ph.man.ac.uk

Roswell and Alien Autopsy Archive-> http://adm2.ph.man.ac.uk/
Dave Willetts Home Page->   http://adm2.ph.man.ac.uk/dave_willetts/
Mike Sterling Home Page->   http://adm2.ph.man.ac.uk/mike-s/
Tim Morgan Home Page   ->   http://adm2.ph.man.ac.uk/tim-m/

*        *         *         *         *         *         *         *







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   Apr > Apr 11

               Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947

From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net>
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 03:51:26 -0700
Fwd Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 15:23:52 -0400
Subject: Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947


 >Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 00:55:24 +0100
 >From: James Easton <voyager@ukonline.co.uk>
 >Subject: Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >Regarding:

 >>Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 10:14:42 -0800
 >>From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman@psln.com>
 >>Subject: Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >Ed wrote:

 >>He kept telling me that I was on the right track and that he
 >>knew the DOD was involved. I thought that this was a strange
 >>fact because I knew that the DOD wasn't formed yet (officially).
 >>But about that time I also learned that the AA film can seals
 >>were from DOD.

 >Ed,

 >If it helps to understand the true context...

 >It's only speculation that those seals/stamps might be
 >representative of the DoD and impossible to determine from their
 >poor quality. Remember, the images were only provided as
 >photocopies of labels allegedly from the film boxes - the
 >supposed boxes themselves being 'no longer available' when Bob
 >Shell was to examine them.

 >All speculation aside, what remains unquestionably factual is
 >that the DoD did not evolve until more than two years after
 >'Roswell'.

<snip>

This may sound dumb on my part, but I never even heard of the
National Military Establishment until these recent discussions.

I browsed for documents, and found some right away.

One, dated mid-May 1949 deals with desegregation of the armed
services, i.e. Air Force, Army, Navy and so on. The letterhead
and all is reproduced.

There is no mention of the " Department of Defense " at all.

Best wishes

- Larry Hatch








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                      Re: Auto Immune Diseases With The

From: Roy J Hale <royjhale@netscapeonline.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 01:42:05 +0100
Fwd Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 15:32:10 -0400
Subject: Re: Auto Immune Diseases With The


From: royjhale@netscapeonline.co.uk
Subject: Re: Auto Immune Diseases With The AbductionPhenomena

Mac .T. wrote:

 >>Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 16:14:45 -0700 (PDT)
 >>From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Auto Immune Diseases With The Abduction Phenomena
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Hi,

 >>I'm not sure if I have anything exactly new to add to this
 >>discussiuon or not, but I'd like to recommend two books that are
 >>right up this alley: 'UFOs: Psychic Close Encounters' and
 >>'Electric UFOs' by Albert Budden.  Budden posits that the
 >>abduction phenomenon is an immunological symptom brought on by
 >>exposure to EM fields.  He also authored a shorter book titled
 >>"Aliens and Allergies."


Hi All,

I did have a copy of the above book by Budden and was
enlightened to read that Abductions as far as he was concerned
were all the symptoms of " Electro-Hypersensitivity" meaning
that the person who happens to have Abduction type events occur,
are basically walking Electric Conductors.

Having read some of Budden's research over some period, it seems
that from my opinion he is finding the answers he wants to find,
that is to say if he picks up a slight voltage reading at the
house of an Abductee then you are more than likely to suffer
from the above condition.

If you want to get more on Albert Budden, try Matthew William's
of Truth seekers I remember a very amusing article on Budden at
a public meeting in Matthew's magazine concerning the above
issue.

Regards,

Roy..                Keep Smiling

http://members.netscapeonline.co.uk/royjhale/UFOFiles.htm







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               Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947

From: Tom Carey <TCarey1947@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 09:07:38 -0400 (EDT)
Fwd Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 15:52:40 -0400
Subject: Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947


 >Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 11:34:32 -0700
 >From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@rocler.qc.ca>
 >Subject: Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2000 11:50:23 -0800
 >>From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman@psln.com>
 >>Subject: Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>>Date: Sat, 08 Apr 2000 17:46:40 -0400
 >>>From: Steven W. Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
 >>>Subject: Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>>If I had a witness contact me with information that could lead
 >>>to breakthrough in relation to the Roswell mystery, I would do
 >>>my best to make sure that his story was investigated by one of
 >>>the specialists in the field and documented carefully so that it
 >>>wouldn't become twisted by the re-telling and lost to future
 >>>generations.

  <snip>

 >>I've encouraged the MP to
 >>identify himself. I have never met him. I do not know his name,
 >>only his email address. He's convinced me that he is who he says
 >>he is. I know how limited his testimony is unless he's able to
 >>convince you and others, too.

  <snip>

 >Hello Ed,

 >Can we have the MP's email address or do you have exclusive
 >rights on this matter?

 >Before you answer, I will bet the following:

 >1. You will not reveal this information.

 >2. If you do, the email address will be hotmail, i.e. impossible
 >  to trace the owner.

 >3. If you don't, you'll have no good reason to do so.

 >I can smell the stench of all of this MP affair. How is it you
 >can't?

 >Serge Salvaille


Dear Serge:

You are correct in all of your questions and points. Early on in
this MP saga, I contacted Ed since I have a copy of the 1947
RAAF yearbook. I offered, as a starting point for verifying the
story, to look up the source's name with a promise not to
contact him or do anything further without Ed's permission.

After accusing me of not showing due respect, Ed, of course,
would not provide the name, saying instead that he passed along
my request to his source for a response which, of course, I am
still awaiting.

This story is one of two things: (1) an April Fool's joke [the
story, I believe, first made its appearance on this list on
April 1st], or (2) an attempt by supporters to breathe life back
into the Santilli hoax [e.g., six-fingered aliens, and the
like]. Nothing more. Nothing less.

Tom Carey







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                        Re: Filer's Files #14 -- 2000

From: Tom Carey TCarey1947@aol.com
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 09:38:28 -0400 (EDT)
Fwd Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 17:16:18 -0400
Subject: Re: Filer's Files #14 -- 2000


 >Filer's Files #14 -- 2000,  MUFON Skywatch Investigations
 >George A. Filer, Director, Mutual UFO Network Eastern
 >April 10, 2000, Majorstar@aol.com  (609) 654-0020
 >Web Site at www.filersfiles.com. - Chuck Warren Webmaster.

 >UFO  REPORTS INCREASE IN CANADA
 >ANOTHER NEW ROSWELL WITNESS

 >I was at Roswell in 1947 to early 1950.  I was at the time a
 >gunner in the 393rd Bomb Squadron, 509th Bomb Group and a member
 >of Captain Frederick Ewing's B-29 combat crew with tail number
 >44-7301 (Straight Flush) ..  On Wednesday, July 9, 1947, our
 >crew transported a crate to Carswell Army Air Force Base, Fort
 >Worth, Texas in 1:55 minutes.  The mission and cargo was
<classified.  The crate was hauled in the front bomb bay and
 >armed guards rode in that bomb bay with the crate. When I
 >removed the down lock, I saw a Major and a Technical Sergeant in
 >the bomb bay and some others in there.  They rode the whole trip
 >in the bomb bay and did not return with us.  We flew
 >unpressurized at about 8,000 feet.  Our bombardier made a safety
 >check of the shackles which held the platform secure.  Those
 >shackles were rigged so that the cargo could not be jettisoned.
 >The corporal tail gunner and I saw the crate when we removed the
 >down locks from the from the bomb doors.  The crate was covered
 >with a tarp when unloaded and taken away on a trailer at
 >Carswell.  I would guess the crate was about 12 x 6 x 6 feet.
 >The engineer and I talked about weight and balance.  They
 >evidently had not given him a firm figure on the weight.  He
 >said with a laugh, "As long as it isn't more than five thousand
 >pounds our center of gravity should be okay."   We knew that Ft.
 >Worth was to be our landing point, and we might get to see the
 >new B-36 bomber. Someone made a remark about carrying "The
 >General's Furniture".  There had also been rumors for a couple
 >of days about a spaceship crash, but we were only told it was
 >classified cargo and to stay back.

 >On the way home, I went forward to chat with Warrant Officer
 >Landry about minor problem with a prop.  We had the Curtiss
 >Electric's and there was concern that one of them was hunting a
 >bit. Major Jessie Marcel rode back to Roswell with us and I
 >talked briefly with him.  He was always interested in the
 >enlisted men on flight crews.  He wanted gunners to be good
 >observers when on long missions.  I don't think his questions
 >that day were probing.  We were useful mostly as scanners
 >because we had only tail guns. He asked if I was anxious to get
 >into B-36's?  We were told repeatedly not to talk of this
 >incident, not even to our wives.  I held that inside until 1988
 >when books began to appear.  To this day I am in touch with one
 >other member of our crew.  Most of the others are no longer
 >alive.  Major Ewing was killed in a B-47 crash in Florida in
 >1952.


Dear List:

Unlike the "MP's Story", George Filer's account of this witness'
story has been verified. I knew who it must be when I read it,
but I called George just to make sure [the source is in the 1947
RAAF yearbook, and our investigation has been in touch with him
over the years]. His account has not changed since he first told
it to us as a reluctant witness some years ago. We hope that by
going public with his story on Filer's Files at this time, he
will come forward himself in the not too distant future].

Our investigation now believes that the July 9, 1947 B-29 flight
from Roswell to Ft. Worth [the flight that this witness speaks
about] carried several bodies which had been recovered at the
J.B. Foster Ranch. Another witness, Robert Slusher, who was also
on this flight has told us that there was a local mortician on
the tarmac waiting to greet the plane when it landed in Ft.
Worth. After the plane discharged its cargo, it immediately
returned to Roswell. On the flight back [which had an additional
passenger, Maj. Jesse Marcel], one of the officers, Lt. Felix
Martucci, was heard to exclaim, "Boys, we just made history!"

Tom Carey








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               Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947

From: Neil Morris <neil@adm1.ph.man.ac.uk>
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 14:50:39 +0100
Fwd Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 17:19:54 -0400
Subject: Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947


 >Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 00:55:24 +0100
 >From: James Easton <voyager@ukonline.co.uk>
 >Subject: Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >Regarding:

 >>Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 10:14:42 -0800
 >>From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman@psln.com>
 >>Subject: Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

<snip>

 >So, the seal came into being in 1947 as the seal of the National
 >Military Establishment. The seal, unchanged in basic design, was
 >redesignated as the seal of the Department of Defense when that
 >Department was established in 1949. [END]

 >Bottom line - it's unequivocal that the DoD didn't exist until
 >late 1949.


James,

Many thanks for posting this, I remember it from the days the AA
was being thrashed about but my copy was trashed in a disk crash
some time ago.

As stated the DOD as an organisation wasn't "officially" termed
as such until 49 but it's interesting to note the comment about
it's seal,

 >So, the seal came into being in 1947 as the seal of the National
 >Military Establishment. The seal, unchanged in basic design, was
 >redesignated as the seal of the Department of Defense when that
 >Department was established in 1949. [END]
 >

It was unchanged in basic design from the 47 version, was it
little changed in 47 from the previous version I wonder, why
reinvent the wheel. Is it possible the seal seen on the AA boxes
was from this earlier version, if authentic, or just stamped up
at a later date with the NME or DOD seal.

Neil.

--
*        *         *         *         *         *         *         *
Neil Morris.       /101101101 Virtual Bumper Stickers Inc 10110101010\
Dept of Physics.   1                                                 1
Univ of Manchester 0                                                 0
Schuster Labs.     1  Computer Programmers DO IT with BITS of BYTES  1
Brunswick St.      0                                                 0
Manchester.        1                                                 1
UK.                \0101010110010110110010110101101011011110101011010/
G8KOQ


              E-mail: neil@adm1.ph.man.ac.uk

Roswell and Alien Autopsy Archive-> http://adm2.ph.man.ac.uk/
Dave Willetts Home Page->   http://adm2.ph.man.ac.uk/dave_willetts/
Mike Sterling Home Page->   http://adm2.ph.man.ac.uk/mike-s/
Tim Morgan Home Page   ->   http://adm2.ph.man.ac.uk/tim-m/

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               Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947

From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 11:07:39 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 17:22:06 -0400
Subject: Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947


 >Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 13:25:27 +0800
 >From: Sharon Kardol <sharon@hotmix.com.au>
 >Subject: Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

<snip>

 >I personally don't think it's right that some innocent personnel
 >from back then should be dragged into without permission. This
 >is someone's account of something that happened to him over 50
 >years ago. "Coming out" so to speak could cause a great deal of
 >harm to the families being ostracized in both personal and
 >career lives (eg the reputation that goes with being a UFO
 >nut)...

 >And what proof has the MP said he has? Does he have pieces of
 >the craft? Photographs? Just because you prove he is who he says
 >he is doesn't make the story any more real or false than it is
 >now. It is still a story from someone way back then. Sure he may
 >gain some credibility but how do we know he's not just jumping
 >on the bandwagon (I am not saying he is) how do we know he's not
 >just creating a tale based on all the stuff he's read (I'm not
 >saying he is).

 >My point isn't to bash this poor guy. I don't know him from a
 >sack of taters, so I'm not going to cast any asspertions either
 >way. But will proving his identity make the story anymore legit?

 >(and please these are questions from a querying mind, not a bash
 >of anyone)


Sharon-

I agree that there is no reason to drag this person (assuming
that he exists) into a public debate. His desire for anonymity
should be honored and there are still ways to verify his story
and preserve his information for future researchers if that is
deemed necessary.

But there also has to be a way to confirm that this person
exists and that he is who he claims to be. Ed has taken it upon
himself to become the MP's spokesperson on the list. IMO,
because Ed's logic (or beliefs) regarding the AA "film" are
already under attack it doesn't help to lend credence to any
story that the MP might have to offer.

Steve







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                 Re: Auto Immune Diseases With The Abduction

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 15:40:56 -0400 (EDT)
Fwd Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 17:28:58 -0400
Subject: Re: Auto Immune Diseases With The Abduction


Thank you to all who have responded. It is interesting, for
purposes of alerting my friend (whom I've never met) Errol
Bruce-Knapp, that out of the thirty mails I received, only three
or four were posted on UpDates. This confirms a theory which I
have. The theory is, any person who is a fan of Gesundt, will go
to great lengths to avoid admitting this fact in public.

But seriously folks, by this mail, I am requesting that each of
you who responded grant me permission to send this information,
without your names attached, to a researcher presently writing a
book which includes a discussion of Post Traumatic Stress
Disorder among perceived abductees. This person is a sufferer of
AI illnesses and is well acquainted with the abduction phenom on
a first hand basis. As I do, my wife, my mother and others in my
family.

Ms. Kathy Hotchner, I went to the site you recommended and found
the survey. I did not take it on the basis of the fact that no
where on it was there a place for someone with the symptoms of
AI illness, without a formal diagnosis.

I would have created this survey for those who have not been
formally diagnosed, with a list of symptoms. Not everyone with
such symptoms will go to a physician unless or until these
become a serious impediment to the quality of life. Such had
been true with me and others in my family. My dad suffers from a
serious AI illness which just a few years ago was thought to be
a hypochondriac's illness. And my wife, from MS.

A theory is beginning to appear. Some of the mails should really
be shared with Updates for the benefit of other (arrrrg)
researchers. I urge those you who have privately communicated
your data with me, to post it on Updates. I find the information
very interesting and very revealing.

Jim Mortellaro







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               Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947

From: James Bond Johnson <JBONJO@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 12:42:39 -0400 (EDT)
Fwd Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 17:26:29 -0400
Subject: Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947

 >Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 23:16:32 -0500
 >From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
 >Subject: Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>>Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2000 15:48:32 -0800
 >>>From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman@psln.com>
 >>>Subject: Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>


 >Let's reduce this to one simple question:

 >Who was your MP's commanding officer on a day to day basis
 >_before_ the alleged UFO crash?

 >Just ask him to tell us who he worked for -- nothing more,
 >nothing less. Who gave him his assignments on a regular, daily
 >basis, nothing to do with Roswell?



Dennis, List:

As a WWII AAF pilot cadet (just prior to the Roswell Incident)
and USMC captain during the Korean War (just following the
Roswell Incident) I cannot recall the names of my COs (with two
exceptions) or even the designation of all units to which I was
assigned during those periods of duty.

But, of course, MPs are selected for their superior mental
abilities so my experience should not count.

James Bond Johnson








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                      Another Breakthrough On Roswell!

From: Wendy Christensen <christensen@catlas.mv.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 15:56:37 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 17:31:11 -0400
Subject: Another Breakthrough On Roswell!


Hello, UFOnauts...

At least Franklin Mint has the right attitude towards the
Roswell conundrum: Cash In! At least they are upfront and honest
about it!

Order your's today!
Be the first on your block... (etc.)
And be sure to save (and savor!) that
all-important "Certificate of Authenticity!"

http://www.franklinmint.com:80/tfmweb/shopping/copy.asp?super_theme_id=004⊂_them
e_id=087&form_id=∏_id=19069&fm_cntry_cd=11&c_code=USD&tfmGUID=6C3B341E0FDD11D49F
9800902740677D&orsr_url_addr=emailafriend&nav=0

Roswell Incident Official Eyewitness Sculpture

- Designed precisely to the account of three eyewitnesses
including Air Intelligence Agent Frank Kaufmann.

-Die-cast model made of nickel palladium and polycarbonate -- a
noble medal chosen to capture eyewitnesses' description of the
craft!

-Comes with an actual soil sample from the alleged crash site
area in Roswell, New Mexico.

-Certificate of Authenticity and informative reference material
included.

-Uncover the haunting truth with an authentic eyewitness
re-creation of the unidentified craft!

Corona, New Mexico Ranch--July 2 to 3, 1947. On July 5, 1947 air
intelligence agent Frank Kaufmann receives an order to travel
about thirty miles north of Roswell, New Mexico to retrieve a
craft of unknown origin. Kaufmann's unit retrieves the
unidentified aerial craft--along with five non-human bodies.
Now, an extraordinary die-cast sculpture has been created to
match the account of three eyewitnesses to the craft. The model
is coated in nickel palladium, then mounted on a support arm of
smoke-colored polycarbonate. The sculpture is set above a
depiction of the arroyo in which the craft allegedly fell to
earth. A custom-designed nameplate showcases the historic date
and site of the incident along with the pictographs reproduced
from the craft's control panel--undecipherable to this date!

$195.00 or 5 monthly installments of
$39.00 each.
Item #22935-05005-934








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   Apr > Apr 11

               Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947

From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 17:30:02 -0300
Fwd Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 18:44:46 -0400
Subject: Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947


 >Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 03:40:29 -0400
 >From: Michel M. Deschamps <ufoman@ican.net>
 >Subject: Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2000 22:03:44 -0400 (EDT)
 >>From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
 >>Subject: Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947
 >>To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >>>Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2000 11:50:23 -0800
 >>>From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman@psln.com>
 >>>Subject: Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>>>Date: Sat, 08 Apr 2000 17:46:40 -0400
 >>>>From: Steven W. Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
 >>>>Subject: Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947
 >>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>3) As I recall according to Santilli (early on at least) the
 >>crash connected with AA happened in late May of 1947 somewhere
 >>else in NM and the AA occured in June of 1947 at Fort Worth
 >>Texas. How does this fit with the MP's recollection of
 >>apparently Roswell in early July

 >A large majority of the crash/retrieval stories where bodies are
 >mentioned make reference to Roswell, which may be behind all the
 >confusion about _this_ alien body or _that_ alien body.

 >I thought that maybe Roswell was the appointed central location
 >where bodies from different New Mexico crash/retrievals would be
 >sent to be autopsied in order to minimize _exposure_ to
 >additional witnesses (the fewer, the better).

 >Perhaps the Roswell base wasn't well-equipped, or maybe the
 >medical facilities weren't up to par, but it might have made
 >more sense for the military to bring the bodies at the same
 >place without delay, where a team of doctors or surgeons could
 >do their job instead of having everything spread out to
 >different bases.

 >So you basically wind up with bodies from different crashes that
 >are brought in to Roswell, witnessed by people who later report
 >that they saw the _Roswell alien_. Hence the confusion and
 >multiple stories of recovered aliens.

 >If I remember correctly, the Roswell creatures were reported to
 >have only four fingers (no thumb); these probably came from the
 >corona site or the plains of San Augustin, or someplace else
 >altogether.

 >The AA creature has six fingers/six toes and may have come from
 >a totally different crash site.

 >Has anybody else ever thought about it from this perspective?


Not very likely. Roswell was strictly a military base. No
scientists. Bombers were its reason for being.

Much closer to the Plains were several bases with high security
and strong R and D focus including Kirtland, Alamogorodo Army
Air Field (Now Holloman), White Sands Missile Range and even
Sandia and Los Alamos.Roswell was the closest military base to
the Brazel Ranch. It did have security and stuff could be moved
there from the boonies into one of the hangars. There was a base
hospital that could be used for preliminary dissestion and
autopsy if necessary while bodies were still"fresh". Certainly
the real work would have been done elsewhere..

Do remember that Ed does _not_ know the name of the alleged MP
and apparently has had no documentation from him. Obviously
without a name he cannot be looked up in the yearbook. There
were lots of MPs at the base.

Stan Friedman








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   Apr > Apr 11

               Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947

From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 17:32:57 -0300
Fwd Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 18:46:54 -0400
Subject: Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947


 >Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 13:35:04 +0800
 >From: Sharon Kardol <sharon@hotmix.com.au>
 >Subject: Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2000 10:54:14 -0500 (CDT)
 >>From: Brian Cuthbertson <brianc@fc.net>
 >>Subject: Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947
 >>To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >>In case Ed isn't following the Voyager thread, note that in it
 >>Stan Friedman writes ...

 >>>Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2000 08:54:22 -0300
 >>>From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
 >>>Subject: Re: Voyager Newsletter
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>>3. I have previously offered and will here again offer to check
 >>>in Confidence my copy of the 1947 RAAF base yearbook if Ed will
 >>>provide the MP's name in confidence via eMail at
 >>>fsphys@brunnet.net via Phone 506-457-0232; via fax
 >>>506-450-3832. I can then send him a copy of the page with the
 >>>picture, if it is there.

 >>Ed: you really, really should do this. I think most will agree
 >>Stan can be trusted to hold a confidence. And if he finds the
 >>name, that'll be pretty hard to argue with.

 >>Are you willing to try this and live with Stan's result?
 >>If not, I don't see why anyone should give you or the MP
 >>much credence.
 >
 >>-Brian C.

 >I am just curious. This MP said he had just been moved to the
 >base 4-5 months before the event. Is it possible to find out in
 >the yearbook those who were transfered to that base at that time
 >(how many MPs could there be?) Maybe it might at least narrow
 >down the field?


The yearbook gives no information as to when an individual came
to the base. It also doesn't give serial numbers or hometowns
such as are in the Operation Cross Roads yearbook... Lots of MPs
though.

Stanton Friedman







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   Apr > Apr 11

                              NASA Flying Disk

From: Brian Cuthbertson <brianc@fc.net>
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 17:09:43 -0500 (CDT)
Fwd Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 18:48:45 -0400
Subject: NASA Flying Disk


Folks,

Well, it appears NASA is investigating flying disk propulsion
after all; though they don't claim it has anything to do with
antigravity (yet):

http://science.nasa.gov/newhome/headlines/prop16apr99_1.htm

-Brian C.







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               Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947

From: Bob Young Young <Bob2@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 18:24:12 -0400 (EDT)
Fwd Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 18:50:50 -0400
Subject: Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947


 >Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947
 >From: James Bond Johnson <JBONJO@aol.com>
 >Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 12:42:39 -0400 (EDT)
 >Fwd Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 17:26:29 -0400
 >Subject: Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947

 >As a WWII AAF pilot cadet (just prior to the Roswell Incident)
 >and USMC captain during the Korean War (just following the
 >Roswell Incident) I cannot recall the names of my COs (with two
 >exceptions) or even the designation of all units to which I was
 >assigned during those periods of duty.

Mr. Johnson:

But, as you say, you can recall the names of some of your COs
and the designations of some of the units to which you belonged.
I'll bet that you can remember the aircraft that you flew.  Our
MP friend ought to be able to remember some of the "guns" that
he used. (You must remember that old saw, "This is my rifle and
that is my gun?")

The thing is that this fellow has offered _no_ specifics to show
that he was there, but lots of details about "the story".

I think that Tom Carey has hit the nail right on the head - this
thing appeared on April Fool's Day.

Bob Young








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                    Re: Another Breakthrough On Roswell!

From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 18:31:32 -0400 (EDT)
Fwd Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 18:52:36 -0400
Subject: Re: Another Breakthrough On Roswell!


 >From: Wendy Christensen <christensen@catlas.mv.com>
 >Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 15:56:37 -0400.
 >Fwd Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 17:31:11 -0400
 >Subject: Another Breakthrough On Roswell!

 >Hello, UFOnauts...

 >At least Franklin Mint has the right attitude towards the
 >Roswell conundrum: Cash In! At least they are upfront and honest
 >about it!

Wendy, All:

Ha. Great. The Franklin Mint has come up with something they've
been looking for years, a product set with no end.  A new
"official witness" statuette each year - presumably issued on
April 1.

Clear skies,
Bob Young







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                 Re: Auto Immune Diseases With The Abduction

From: Susan Mann <Smann56@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 09:08:08 -0400 (EDT)
Fwd Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 19:13:56 -0400
Subject: Re: Auto Immune Diseases With The Abduction


 >Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 10:14:50 -0700
 >From: Kathy Hotchner <khotchner@uswest.net>
 >Subject: Re: Auto Immune Diseases With The Abduction Phenomena
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2000 16:24:30 -0400 (EDT)
 >>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >>Subject: Auto Immune Diseases With The Abduction Phenomena
 >>To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >>Has anyone on this list, data which correlates Auto Immune
 >>diseases with the Abduction Phenomena? We are particularly
 >>interested in such illnesses as Multiple Sclerosis, Lupus and
 >>Arthritis.  These diseases are indicative of an _overactive_
 >>immune system.

 >Hello Jim,

 >There is an interesting article on the Cause site about abductees
 >and Chronic Fatigue Syndrome atL http://www.caus.org/mc050899.htm

I read the article and I would like to respond to it. I help run
a UFO group and my family, (myself, my husband and my two kids)
all have chronic fatigue syndrome. We were diagnosed with it
about 8 years ago.

My husband and I have been involved with UFOs and abductions
most of our lives. There are some people in our group that have
MS, diabetes (which is an auto-immune problem) supposedly lyme
etc.

The things that I have read on the Internet during the past few
years lead up to the fact that it is very common in the UFO
field to have problems like that.

One theory I was given is, that possibly UFOs cause a problem
with the magnetic field which supposedly throws your immune
system off. Once your immune system isn't working right you end
up with a problem.

Let me know how your survey goes.

Thanks,

Susan Mann
smann56@aol.com







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                            Re: NASA Flying Disk

From: Ron Cecchini <Ron.Cecchini@GD-CS.COM>
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 19:17:32 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 19:39:55 -0400
Subject: Re: NASA Flying Disk


 >Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 17:09:43 -0500 (CDT)
 >From: Brian Cuthbertson <brianc@fc.net>
 >Subject: NASA Flying Disk
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >Well, it appears NASA is investigating flying disk propulsion
 >after all; though they don't claim it has anything to do with
 >antigravity (yet):

 >http://science.nasa.gov/newhome/headlines/prop16apr99_1.htm

No, no, no.

Read the article.

RPI is my alma mater, & this is an old, old research project
whose goal is to use lasers beamed from Earth as an energy
source for lightweight crafts.

It has nothing to do with "antigravity" in any of the senses
(for there is more than one) of the word "antigravity" that
we're all hoping to see come to fruition!









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   Apr > Apr 12

               [lunascan] Moon's Ruin-Like Formations - Survey

From: Alexey V. Arkhipov <rai@ira.kharkov.ua>
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 11:08:12 +0200
Fwd Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 09:20:52 -0400
Subject: [lunascan] Moon's Ruin-Like Formations - Survey


The final results of my archaeological reconnaissance of the
Moon have been published in USA recently. Many thanks to the
Publisher, Dr. Tom Van Flandern. Hoping, the catalogue of 128
polar ruin-like objects and its analysis could be interesting
for you. The reprints and electronic version are accessible via
Meta Research, Inc.: <metares@mindspring.com>.

Alexey V. Arkhipov, PhD

Institute of Radio Astronomy

****************************************************************

          SURVEY FOR RUIN-LIKE FORMATIONS ON THE MOON
                        Alexey V. Arkhipov
  [Meta Research Bulletin, March 15, 2000, vol. 9, No. 1, pp.9-13]

ABSTRACT. As a continuation of the preliminary analysis of
CLEMENTINE lunar images [MRB, vol. 8, No. 4, pp. 49-54 (1999)],
an automated computer survey for ruin-like objects on the Moon
has been carried out. The finds are now classified and
catalogued. It is shown that the majority of these formations
could be interpreted as collapsed subsurface cavities. Such
local formations are puzzling from a geological perspective, and
seem promising candidates for archaeological objects. Besides,
such subsurface cavities located in polar regions could be
interesting for other reasons, such as colonization of the Moon
or as collectors of volatile substances.


----------------------------------------------------------------


THE LUNASCAN PROJECT (TLP): An Earth-Based Telescopic Imaging
(EBTI) program using live and recorded CCD technology to
document and record Lunar Transient Phenomena (TLPs).

The Lunascan Project HomePage
http://www.evansville.net/~slk/lshomepage.html

The Project's Mission Statement :
http://www.evansville.net/~slk/miss.html








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                  Re: Arnold Pelicans - Voyager Newsletter

From: Brad Sparks <RB47Expert@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 20:33:54 -0400 (EDT)
Fwd Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 10:54:46 -0400
Subject: Re: Arnold Pelicans - Voyager Newsletter

[Non-Subscriber Post --ebk]

List Members,

You are probably not aware of the fact that James Easton's
latest pelican arguments about the Arnold case have already been
refuted on his own List and he simply doesn't respond (with one
exception while evading the other conveniently numbered and
listed 10 Points). Please see excerpts from my postings on
Easton's UFO Research List below, which have gone virtually
unanswered. Bruce Maccabee has also posted extensive optical
calculations refuting the notion that pelicans or other birds
could enough reflect sunlight to be comparable to the "blinding"
light Arnold reported.

These postings include 11 Points of Flight Behavior of Arnold's
Objects, only one of which matches pelicans, at least judging
from the evidence Easton presents, and 12 Points of Pelican
Flight Behavior again only one (the same one) of which matches
Arnold's observations. This extremely poor correlation between
pelicans and Arnold's objects is surprising because Easton gives
the impression there are many match ups. But in fact these are
superficial and illusory, based on comparing a lot of "-ing"
words that actually don't match.

Easton's evidence of pelican flight behavior can be listed in 11
points which are _inconsistent_ with Arnold's objects: Arnold's
objects exhibited _none_ of the following Pelican flight
behaviors which are discussed in more detail in the reprinted
postings (see below and note the comments): (1) banking motion
(2) flapping wings slowly in unison with all the others (3) half
dozen slow flappings of all in unison then gliding then flapping
in unison again then gliding etc. (4) uniformly spaced lines or
V- or L-formations (5) soaring high on thermals (6) spiralling
up to several thousand feet (7) retraced paths (8) undulating
line, V- or L-formations (9) leader flapping first followed by
the rest (10) 3 groups of about 30 each in lines then forming
"V's" (11) lead bird dark the rest white.

Notice for example that when Easton mentions number 3 he omits
the specific speed, timing and coordination details that don't
fit Arnold. He mentions pelicans "flapping and sailing" and
Arnold's objects "fluttered and sailed," pats himself on the
back for pointing out such an "obvious correlation," but forgets
to mention that his data describe _all_ Pelicans in a group
_slowly_flapping_ in _unison_ half a dozen times then gliding
then flapping, etc. Whereas Arnold reported "_fluttering_ and
_jerking_ very _rapidly_" of only ONE or a few objects at a
time, _erratically_, "not in a regular rhythm." Apparently the
"fluttering" was a rapid shape change or brightness variation
that modulated the brief "flash."

Easton is very concerned to prove that the objects were very
close to Arnold since most birds are small and could not have
been seen from more than a few miles' distance, or up to a
maximum of 6 miles for ten-foot pelicans. Closeness is a two-way
street since it also means almost immediate overtaking of
slow-moving birds by Arnold's 120 mph aircraft (max speed; 102
mph cruise speed), which certainly did not occur, and which is
difficult for Easton to explain. Arnold's most precise estimate
of the distance to the objects was 23 miles, based on his
observation of the objects passing behind Mt. Rainier and his
charting on a map their straight-line course on the estimated
170 heading to Goat Ridge and to Mt. Adams. From Arnold's
location about three minutes' flying time east of Mineral,
Wash., (see his July 1947 letter to AAF) while traveling two
miles per minute, he was about 17 miles from Mt. Rainier, so his
distance estimate clearly shows the objects some miles behind
Rainier.

In his second known interview, on the afternoon of June 25,
1947, Arnold told the Chicago Tribune "I counted nine of them as
they _disappeared_behind_ the peak of Mount Ranier [Rainier]."
Arnold repeated this observation many times describing a
prominent peak of Mt. Rainier which even Easton concedes must be
Little Tahoma Peak, which lay behind Rainier's summit from
Arnold's position. Arnold's only known _drawing_ of the objects'
flight path (see retouched version on the cover of IUR Mar/Apr
95) apparently drawn in late June 1947, shows the objects coming
out from behind Rainier and heading toward Mt. Adams.
Occasionally, Arnold seemed to refer to the objects passing to
the west of Mt. Rainier and seeing their outlines or "images"
"against" the snow but avoided ever using the words "in front
of" the mountain or snow, and these comments are always out of
chronological order in his narratives or seriously truncated,
suggesting confusion of some sort.

The reason for Arnold's "distance shyness" in occasionally
trying to put the sighting into a closer distance frame in front
of Rainier may have been an effort to reassure himself and
others that the objects were close enough for him to observe
details and to try to deflect some of the nationwide criticism
and ridicule he received for his story. Arnold's references to
using a friendly and familiar "stopwatch" (instead of his
instrument panel clock) to do his famous "clocking" was
apparently an example of such public reassurance, since most
people are unfamilar with aircraft instrument panels.

Easton seeks to simply discredit Arnold's distance observing
abilities based on the impossibility of judging distance without
reference points and because of inconsistent accounts but he
fails to realize something -- Arnold _didn't_observe_ the
23-mile distance. Arnold said he observed the objects passing
behind a known landmark and the 23-mile figure was deteremined
_later_ by _measurement_on_a_map_. Arnold did not purport to
"observe" the number, but the passage behind a mountain
landmark. He was not pretending to have some sort of digital
rangefinder in his head. This is a subtle but crucially
important distinction and hopefully is not too subtle for some
to grasp.

For his clinching proof of birds, Easton likes to refer to
Arnold's sighting of 20-25 duck-like objects on July 29, 1947,
and a newsclip of Northwest Airlines pilots' briefly mistaking
pelicans as disks on July 9, 1947. However, he ignores important
differences. Both sightings were brief and lacking in
_quantitative_ details as they were never investigated, making
it easy to suggest parallels to the famous Arnold sighting even
where there are none.

Easton's answer as to why Arnold did not overtake birds on June
24 is to point to the July 29 sighting and he imagines that it
proves Arnold was for some reason incapable of identifying birds
when he saw them. But the July 29 duck sighting _did_ involve
Arnold _overtaking_ the birds, he overtook them from nearly headon
(I think the objects were in fact ducks). He simply was unable
to overtake them a SECOND time because they rapidly disappeared
due to their small size before he could turn and chase them (see
my April 3 posting below for the simple calculations). Arnold
mistakenly thought they could not be ducks because of their
assumed speed in making a rapid disappearance. But this was an
illusion which he would have realized if he could have made the
proper calculations of angular size.

The Northwest Airline sighting is even more sketchy (we don't
know time of day, angular size, duration, altitude, etc.). It
also appears to have been a headon encounter of brief duration,
allowing for initial confusion in identifying the birds, whereas
Arnold had a long 2-3 minutes to observe the June 24 objects
crossing in a path lying ahead of him at nearly right angles.
The Northwest pilots apparently thought Arnold reported "round
disks" and thought their sighting therefore discredited his when
they turned out to be pelicans. They didn't realize the "round
disk" shape was a media misconception partially the fault of
Arnold, who said his objects were crescent or half-moon-shaped,
but occasionally described them as "saucer-shaped" or
"disk-shaped." Assuming this Northwest Airlines report wasn't a
prank specifically designed to discredit Arnold, the roundness
of the pelicans might have been due to the effect of halation on
the retina which smears bright objects into round shapes. Arnold
himself accurately reported halation when he said that his
objects became round when they flashed intensely bright.
However, the Northwest pilots did not report such intense
brightness that they were blinded as if by arc-light or that the
flashes were so bright they lit up the cabin of their plane as
Arnold reported happened -- obviously sunlit pelicans cannot
reflect blinding light.


Brad Sparks


Subj:  Re: Arnold's Objects & Bird Motions
Date:  Sunday, April 9, 2000 12:24:03 PM
From:  RB47Expert@aol.com
To:   UFORL@listbot.com

From:  RB47Expert@aol.com
Reply-to:  UFORL@listbot.com (UFO Research List)
To: UFORL@listbot.com

UFO Research List - http://web.ukonline.co.uk/voyager/

James,

You failed to print out my list of 11 points about the motions
and formation of Arnold's objects -- only one of which matches
your pelican evidence (No. 4 Unison Formation Motion) -- and my
analysis of 12 points about pelican motion (again only one
matches up with Arnold, No. 1, Unison Formation Motion).

You attempt to dismiss the Skipping Motion (no. 1) as simply the
same thing as Unison Formation Motion (no. 9). But you ignore my
comment under Pelican Point No. 9: "Arnold's description of a
"Chinese kite tail" motion, however, is of "erratic" almost
violent motion not the _graceful_undulations_ of a formation of
birds."

Your latest comments ignoring mine go on about the linked or
unison motion of a Chinese kite (or ribbons or crepe paper) but
ignore the aspect of _violently_erratic_motion that everyone is
familiar with from seeing or flying _kites_. So when Arnold was
struggling to explain how the objects seemed to be linked in
their motions but also very erratic -- two different aspects of
the motions -- it is perfectly understandable how he would run
down a list of comparisons to try to convey a difficult concept
-- saucers skipping over water, speedboats on _rough_water_,
Chinese kite tail, fish flipping and flashing in the sun, etc.
The only evidence you've presented for pelicans is of
_graceful_undulating_ formations (Pelican Point No. 9, see below).
Nothing about pelican formations with _erratic_ irregular motion,
like speedboats going over _rough_water_.

Here are my lists once again:

Here is a rough list of Arnold's observations about the objects'
formation and motions with respect to terrain features. Please
match this with detailed descriptions of pelicans exhibiting the
same motions with respect to the same terrain features (mountain
peaks, canyons, etc.) in the same type of formation. Just using
a lot of "-ing" words is NOT sufficient:

Motions & Formation Flight Reported For Arnold's Objects

(1) Skipping: "Saucers skipping across water" or like "speed boats on
rough
water."

(2) Weaving The Mountaintops: "Weaving in and out right above
the mountaintops."

(3) Irregular Light Flashes At Same Time: Dipping down motion
seemingly tipping or flipping wings, and simultaneously flashing
intense blue-white light, "not in a regular rhythm" among the 9
objects, but averaging 2-3 objects flashing every few seconds
(=1 flash/sec from the 9 or 1 flash every 9 seconds for any one
object).

(4) Unison Formation Motion: Formation generally moves in unison
as if connected.

(5) Very Erratic Individual Motions: But individual objects move
"very erratically," "fluttering and jerking very rapidly."

(6) Straight Line Reverse Echelon Formation: Flying in "definite
direction," a "straight line" in reverse echelon with the first
object highest and the last lowest.

(7) FORMATION IN TWO GROUPS OF 4 AND 5 IN A SINGLE-FILE LINE: Formation
split with a gap between the first 4 and last 5.

(8) FORMATION OF 9.

(9) Second To Last Darker/Different: Second to last object
darker, slightly larger or slightly different in shape.

(10) Intense Arc-Like Blinding Brightness. In the opposite part
of the sky from the sun, no grazing-angle reflections of
sunlight.

(11) High Velocity. (Arnold's clocking indicates about 2
degs/sec angular velocity which for birds at 1 mile distance is
about 125 mph, much too fast for birds with top speeds of 30
possibly 50 mph.)

Correct me if I'm wrong, James, but I see nothing here (below)
in your descriptions of pelican behavior, nor do I recall from
your other postings, _anything_ about _Pelicans_ moving like (1)
speedboats skipping across water, (2) weaving in and out of
mountain peaks, (3 & 10) irregularly flashing intense arc-like
light when dipping down and flipping/tipping, (5) very erratic
individual motions, (6) straight line reverse echelon formation,
(7) formation split into two groups of even _approximately_ 4
and 5 in a single-file line with a gap in between, (8) a total
number of only _about_ 9, (9) and the second-to-_last_ object
darker/different.

Instead, let's review what you presented below. If you have
further evidence that bears on these specific points then please
_present_ it and please _use_my_ numbering (above and below)
without skipping _any_. Give us your best shot.

So far as I can see your Pelican Evidence has the following:


Pelican Formations & Motions

(1) UNISON FORMATION MOTION. (The only point in common with
Arnold.)

(2) BANKING MOTION. (When did Arnold's objects "bank"? Dipping
down in altitude is not banking. Flipping or tipping wings is
not banking. Pilots can explain the difference.)

(3) FLAPPING WINGS SLOWLY IN UNISON. (Arnold never reported
this. He said _individual_ objects "_ver_ rapidly_" fluttered
and jerked but "_erratically_" and _not_ in unison.)

(4) HALF DOZEN SLOW FLAPPINGS OF ALL BIRDS IN UNISON -- Then
gliding -- Then slow flappings in unison -- etc. (Arnold never
reported all 9 objects "flapping" in unison like this. See
Arnold List Nos. 3 and 5, above. He said 2-3 objects
light-flashed/dipped altitude every 2-3 seconds _irregularly_,
but _not_ the whole chain of 9 objects in _unison_.)

(5) PRECISELY SPACED LINES OR V- OR L-FORMATIONS. (Arnold never
said the objects were uniformly spaced, in fact mentioned a gap
in the middle, and never reported a V-shape or L-shape
formation.)

(6) SOARING HIGH ON THERMALS. (Arnold reported the objects more
or less maintained the same height except rising gradually
towards the end -- McDonald taking this as 9,000 feet near
Rainier rising to 13,000 feet some 50 miles farther along near
Adams, from his Arnold interviews in Nov 1966 -- which is less
than a 1-degree rise and obviously not the classic birds
"soaring on a thermal.")

(7) Spiralling Up To Several Thousand Feet. (Arnold obviously
reported no such thing.)

(8) Retraced Paths. (Arnold again obviously reported no such
thing.)

(9) UNDULATING LINE, V- OR L-FORMATIONS: (Arnold's description
of a "Chinese kite tail" motion, however, is of "erratic" almost
violent motion not the GRACEFUL UNDULATIONS of a formation of
birds.)

(10) LEADER FLAPPING FIRST FOLLOWED BY THE REST. (This is not a
contradiction to Unison Formation Motion, No. 1, but an
alternative motion. But not reported by Arnold, though, unlike
No. 1. THIS is a "staccato" motion, one suddenly followed by
others like dominos, which is NOT "erratic.")

(11) THREE GROUPS OF ABOUT 30 EACH IN LINES THEN FORMING "V's".
(Still not Arnold's 9 in a line with a gap in the middle. James,
you keep saying in other postings that the number of 9 objects
is so bird-like. Well let's hear some reports of single-line
formations of about 9 (or 8, 10, 11, 7, somewhere around there)
pelicans with a gap in the middle. Must be billions of birds on
earth surely if this is normal someone would have seen it,
especially given how fanatical birdwatchers can be.)

(12) Lead Bird Dark -- Remainder White. (Arnold said the
2nd-to-_last_ object was _slightly_darker_, and a bit larger,
but as a matter of degree. This was _not_ the _lead_ object.)

Contrary to your claim of demonstrating that Arnold's objects
exhibited "several proven" characteristics of a formation of
Pelicans, you've in fact shown only 1 out of 12 pelican
flight/formation characteristics that match Arnold's objects.
I've further shown 10 additional flight/formation
characteristics that Arnold reported for which you have yet to
show ANY matches from evidence of pelicans.

Brad

<snip>

Subj:  Re: Arnold and Pelican Brief
Date:  Monday, April 3, 2000 12:53:03 AM
From:  RB47Expert@aol.com
To:   UFORL@listbot.com

From:  RB47Expert@aol.com
Reply-to:  UFORL@listbot.com (UFO Research List)
To: UFORL@listbot.com

UFO Research List - http://web.ukonline.co.uk/voyager/

Hi List,

As Bruce correctly points out James is not dealing with (1) the
_dynamic_constraints_ of Arnold flying at 120 mph against birds
with top speeds of 50 mph and somehow never overtaking them. Nor
is he dealing with (2) the _quantitative_measurements_ Arnold
made of the angular speed and directions of the objects in
traveling from Mt. Rainier to Mt. Adams in 102 seconds nor with
(3) his brightness comparisons which Bruce and I have turned
semi-quantitative. Points 1 and 2 require that James DRAW A MAP
to show how it could possibly be birds.

The only response James ever makes -- and we've been over this
again and again for nearly two years on this List -- is to try
to argue from precedent that Arnold's sighting of duck-like
objects on July 29, 1947, somehow proves that Points 1, 2 and 3
(above) regarding his famous June 24 sighting can be dismissed
as baseless or erroneous.

There is one major problem: Arnold _overtook_ the bird-like
objects in the July 29 incident -- he did not and could not on
June 24. They may well have been birds in the second event,
despite Arnold's protests that he thought they were too fast for
ducks, because Arnold made _no_ measurements. His impressions of
speed are completely unsupported by any _quantitative_ estimates
or figures of any kind. After he _overtook_ the objects the
first time from their rapid head on approach he claimed he tried
to turn and chase them but it all happened "suddenly" and they
disappeared rapidly almost directly behind him to the east (he
had heading west or more precisely WNW for landing) apparently
before he could make the turn or complete it. Arnold estimated
their size at about 2-2.5 feet, much smaller than 10-foot
pelicans, so they would have disappeared from sight 4-5 times
faster.

Given a 1 arcminute approximate angular size for disappearance
this translates to a distance of roughly a mile -- versus
roughly 6 miles for the much larger pelicans. At a closing
speed of roughly 100 ft/sec, this means about one minute to
disappear. At the standard rate of a two-minute turn shown on
aircraft instrument panels a 180-degree turn would take this
same one minute but too late as the objects would already have
been gone -- hence Arnold's surprise.

Had they crossed Arnold's flight path at _right_angles_ (as the
objects did on June 24) instead of head on he could easily have
turned 90 degrees in just half a minute to pursue them at max
speed BEFORE they disappeared, overtaking them in just another
half minute. Arnold may have been surprised at how fast these
objects disappeared but it's simply a matter of the optics of
angular size and distance for such small objects.

These are simple flight _dynamics_ and elementary geometry and I
wish James would address them instead of ignoring them.

Brad








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   Apr > Apr 12

               Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947

From: SharonK <sharon@hotmix.com.au>
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 14:37:13 +0800
Fwd Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 10:57:29 -0400
Subject: Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947


 >Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 11:07:39 -0400
 >From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
 >Subject: Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 13:25:27 +0800
 >>From: Sharon Kardol <sharon@hotmix.com.au>
 >>Subject: Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

<snip>

 >Sharon-

 >I agree that there is no reason to drag this person (assuming
 >that he exists) into a public debate. His desire for anonymity
 >should be honored and there are still ways to verify his story
 >and preserve his information for future researchers if that is
 >deemed necessary.

 >But there also has to be a way to confirm that this person
 >exists and that he is who he claims to be. Ed has taken it upon
 >himself to become the MP's spokesperson on the list. IMO,
 >because Ed's logic (or beliefs) regarding the AA "film" are
 >already under attack it doesn't help to lend credence to any
 >story that the MP might have to offer.

 >Steve

You're absolutely right. Perhaps it's time to pass it onto a
more impartial party as has been suggested.  Ball's in Ed's
court I suppose.

Cheers
Sharon







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   Apr > Apr 12

                        Re: Filer's Files #14 -- 2000

From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 07:52:48 -0300
Fwd Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 11:01:21 -0400
Subject: Re: Filer's Files #14 -- 2000


 >Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 09:38:28 -0400 (EDT)
 >From: Tom Carey TCarey1947@aol.com
 >Subject: Re: Filer's Files #14 -- 2000
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >>Filer's Files #14 -- 2000,  MUFON Skywatch Investigations
 >>George A. Filer, Director, Mutual UFO Network Eastern
 >>April 10, 2000, Majorstar@aol.com  (609) 654-0020
 >>Web Site at www.filersfiles.com. - Chuck Warren Webmaster.

 >>UFO  REPORTS INCREASE IN CANADA
 >>ANOTHER NEW ROSWELL WITNESS

 >>I was at Roswell in 1947 to early 1950.  I was at the time a
 >>gunner in the 393rd Bomb Squadron, 509th Bomb Group and a member
 >>of Captain Frederick Ewing's B-29 combat crew with tail number
 >>44-7301 (Straight Flush) ..

<snip>

 >Dear List:

 >Unlike the "MP's Story", George Filer's account of this witness'
 >story has been verified. I knew who it must be when I read it,
 >but I called George just to make sure [the source is in the 1947
 >RAAF yearbook, and our investigation has been in touch with him
 >over the years]. His account has not changed since he first told
 >it to us as a reluctant witness some years ago. We hope that by
 >going public with his story on Filer's Files at this time, he
 >will come forward himself in the not too distant future].

 >Our investigation now believes that the July 9, 1947 B-29 flight
 >from Roswell to Ft. Worth [the flight that this witness speaks
 >about] carried several bodies which had been recovered at the
 >J.B. Foster Ranch. Another witness, Robert Slusher, who was also
 >on this flight has told us that there was a local mortician on
 >the tarmac waiting to greet the plane when it landed in Ft.
 >Worth. After the plane discharged its cargo, it immediately
 >returned to Roswell. On the flight back [which had an additional
 >passenger, Maj. Jesse Marcel], one of the officers, Lt. Felix
 >Martucci, was heard to exclaim, "Boys, we just made history!"


Just to add in my 5 cents worth. Indeed there is a great
contrast between this story and that of the alleged MP.

The names (and pictures) here are in the base yearbook. There is
a lot of detail and it matches previous info.

For all we know the "MP" is a 35 year old woman having us on,
since Ed has no source name, location, background.

Check first publish later should be the mode of operation.

Stan Friedman







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                    Re: Another Breakthrough On Roswell!

From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 08:16:24 -0300
Fwd Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 11:05:47 -0400
Subject: Re: Another Breakthrough On Roswell!


 >Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 15:56:37 -0400
 >From: Wendy Christensen <christensen@catlas.mv.com>
 >Subject: Another Breakthrough On Roswell!
 >To: UFO UpDates list <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >At least Franklin Mint has the right attitude towards the
 >Roswell conundrum: Cash In! At least they are upfront and honest
 >about it!

 >Order your's today!
 >Be the first on your block... (etc.)
 >And be sure to save (and savor!) that
 >all-important "Certificate of Authenticity!"

 >http://www.franklinmint.com:80/tfmweb/shopping/copy.asp?super_theme_id=004&
sub_theme_id=087&form_id=∏_id=19069&fm_cntry_cd=11&c_code=USD&tfmGUID=6C
3B341E0FDD11D49F9800902740677D&orsr_url_addr=emailafriend&nav=0

 >Roswell Incident Official Eyewitness Sculpture

<snip>

 >Corona, New Mexico Ranch--July 2 to 3, 1947. On July 5, 1947 air
 >intelligence agent Frank Kaufmann receives an order to travel
 >about thirty miles north of Roswell, New Mexico to retrieve a
 >craft of unknown origin. Kaufmann's unit retrieves the
 >unidentified aerial craft--along with five non-human bodies.
 >Now, an extraordinary die-cast sculpture has been created to
 >match the account of three eyewitnesses to the craft. The model
 >is coated in nickel palladium, then mounted on a support arm of
 >smoke-colored polycarbonate. The sculpture is set above a
 >depiction of the arroyo in which the craft allegedly fell to
 >earth. A custom-designed nameplate showcases the historic date
 >and site of the incident along with the pictographs reproduced
 >from the craft's control panel--undecipherable to this date!

<snip>

The drawings produced by Frank and Bill McDonald in about 1994
and used as the basis for this model, are essentially identical
to ones printed (cover and inside) 1991 magazine articles about
the TR3A secret reconnaissance aircraft including the beehive
effect on the bottom.

Frank in December, 1999, admitted that his previous claim to me
that Colonel Blanchard and Jesse Marcel had gone out with him in
the middle of the night to the crash site was false.

General Scanlon whom he had claimed ordered him to WSPG because
of radar sightings and was head of the Air Defense Command, was
never ADC head and his last posting before getting out in
February, 1948, was as Public Relations Officer for ADC at
Mitchell Field on the East coast.

In short, not only is there no verification for Frank's story,
there is counter information including, for example, a sworn
statement from the previous owners of the Corn Ranch site
(McKnight family) that, back in 1947, there was no way to get to
that site except on a horse. I will admit that Frank is a fine
artist.

Stan Friedman








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   Apr > Apr 12

                            Re: NASA Flying Disk

From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 08:32:31 -0300
Fwd Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 11:08:56 -0400
Subject: Re: NASA Flying Disk


 >Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 17:09:43 -0500 (CDT)
 >From: Brian Cuthbertson <brianc@fc.net>
 >Subject: NASA Flying Disk
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >Folks,

 >Well, it appears NASA is investigating flying disk propulsion
 >after all; though they don't claim it has anything to do with
 >antigravity (yet):

 >http://science.nasa.gov/newhome/headlines/prop16apr99_1.htm

 >-Brian C.


Dr, Leik Myrabo is a courageous scientist with whom I met in
California more than 20 years ago.

We discussed magneto-aerodynamic propulsion systems such as the
ones I noted in my 1968 Congressional testimony and letters in
Physics Today and Aeronautics and Astronautics.

He actually arranged speaking engagements for  myself and Dr.
Bruce Maccabee and others a few years back at RPI. I also spoke
with his class.

Really sharp. Two thumbs up. No antigravity involved at this
time.

Stan Friedman









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   Apr > Apr 12

               Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947

From: James Easton <voyager@ukonline.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 14:37:58 +0100 (BST)
Fwd Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 11:13:46 -0400
Subject: Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947


Regarding:

 >Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 11:05:55 +0100
 >From: Neil Morris <neil@adm1.ph.man.ac.uk>
 >Subject: Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

Neil wrote:


 >But aren't we all assuming the stamp's were placed on the boxes
 >at or about the time of the Roswell Event? Is there anything to
 >say they were not placed there later?

Neil,

This was always suggested as a theoretical possibility and
absolutely must be the only conceivable explanation, if the
labels and stamps are authentic.

Incidentally, copies can still be seen on my web site, at:

http://web.ukonline.co.uk/voyager/reel_31.jpg
http://web.ukonline.co.uk/voyager/reel_52.jpg
http://web.ukonline.co.uk/voyager/reel_64.jpg

As the footage was already a likely 'success' before photocopies
of those labels appeared, I couldn't see the necessity for these
supplementing a hoax. I suppose it could be argued that it added
to our story in the absence of any tangible evidence whatsoever
- original film, the cameraman, that sort of thing. ;)

Let's assume for the moment that _every component_ of these
labels is authentic. We must keep in mind it would be a stamp
and could therefore differ slightly from the 'strict' official
seal, particularly with regard to the exact spacing of letters
and level of detail in the emblem.

The lettering almost certainly can't be DEPARTMENT OF DEFENSE as
there are too many letters, plus that central, short word and
consequential spacing should be obvious, as in known examples of
a DoD stamp.

I've taken the opportunity to have a fresh look at this and
working with higher quality images of comparative seals, might
now have identified what the labels' stamp actually is.

Although, because the ink has bled so much, it's _impossible_
from available copies (might be much clearer on the original
label) to be certain, it could be the stamp is in fact that of
the National Military Establishment [NME].

Comparing a new copy of the NME seal, the spacing does now look
to be _possibly_ consistent, with one or two notable
similarities.

Anyone has to judge this for themselves.

There's a working comparison [259k] on my web site at:

http://web.ukonline.co.uk/voyager/stamp.gif

It would make sense. If not the later DoD, the only other
candidate any military historians have suggested is its
predecessor, the NME.

That might also be consistent with the 'develop before' date,
just visible at the left-hand side of the 'Reel #52' label. The
first three digits are '194' and the last could be '7'.

Conversely, if all three labels are partly bogus, using still-
available old Kodak 'SUPER-XX' film, then somebody seems to have
gone to great lengths in actually recreating a contemporary
stamp, as the stamp is imprinted on the 'PROCESS INTERNALLY'
label which was later stuck on the original Kodak label.

Unless, the handwriting has been added or altered...

Could the labels be absolutely genuine and yet unconnected to
Ray Santilli's story?

Of course, however, we then have to explain which events might
have given rise to three labels, in the same handwriting style,
respectively headed:

Reel #31 June 1947
Recovery

Reel #52 [then torn]
Truman a [then torn]

Reel #64 July 1947
Autopsy 2 - Head

This also illustrates another weird aspect to the story and one
which perhaps went largely unrecognised. According to these
labels and as 'confirmed', in the alleged cameraman's story,
there was a full month between the 'crash' on 1st June and the
'autopsies' in early July.

During this time, the anonymous 'cameraman's statement' claims
he spent three weeks at "Wright-Patterson" [which would in fact
have been Wright-Field at that time] documenting the crashed
'flying saucer'. Not surprisingly, no film of this, or the crash
site, or the recovery and especially of President Truman, ever
materialised.

So, could the labels be the real thing, yet the subsequent
'autopsy' footage which appeared, be a special effects creation?

It evidently is, particularly the brief 'debris in a tent'
sequence, which draws so heavily on Roswell lore. Perhaps like
the hoaxed 'alien in a tent' - which was after all the first
'Roswell' film to be promoted by Ray Santilli - it was
considered 'appropriate' to 'recreate' some scenes from the
popularised story. Speculating... there might have been some
financial pressure to 'produce the goods' if Santilli's stated
backer had invested heavily in acquiring what was believed to be
invaluable 'Roswell' footage.

Anyway, we are now aware how Ray Santilli wasn't involved in
creating the completely separate 'alien in a tent' film - see
the 'Mail on Sunday' article on my web site, at:

http://web.ukonline.co.uk/voyager/mail_os.htm

However, a factor which hasn't been appreciated is what may be
the true significance of our 'alien in a tent' expose.

When Ray Santilli approached his music/video industry colleagues
at 'AK Music' in Milton Keynes, it seems this was to enquire if
they might be able to enhance some images on a video which he
claimed contained film of 'aliens'.

As confirmed in the' Mail on Sunday' article:

"The truth, according to video producers Keith Bateman and Andy
Price-Watts, is somewhat different.

Bateman and Price-Watts, whose company AK Music, is based in
Milton Keynes, say that in the summer of 1994 they were
approached by Santilli, who they had known for many years and
who occasionally bought some of their bizarre videos.

Santilli told them he had a video of aliens, but it was poor
quality. Could they enhance it?".

According to this evidence, in the summer of '94, Ray Santilli
sincerely believed he had some remarkable footage and there must
have been some technical problems with the quality of those
images. This _could_ be seen to equate with what he claimed in
general, although the information has been fragmentary and there
were acknowledged deliberate 'half-truths' about the dates of
certain occurrences (I'm maybe being too generous here!).

Then again, following the 'Mail on Sunday' article, he did
confirm to myself that this video footage contained some of the
first images transferred from archive, 16mm film to video and
the work took place in the UK. This would explain why, as I
understand, the video tape was in the European PAL format, not
the American NTSC format. Further, related information, I still
can't disclose at present - it's being pursued.

Unfortunately, that initial transfer was unsuccessful and
consequently Santilli asked 'AK Music' - who did have some video
expertise - if they could enhance any of the images.

Where Santilli acquired any such original film material from,
even if irrecoverable, and what would have been seen, are
intriguing questions.

It's an utterly bizarre affair and no less so if those labels
are authentic and the stamps do identify a connection with the
NME. Although the NME was formed under the National Security Act
of 1947, signed into law on 26 July 1947, the NME seal did not
come into existence until October 1947 or later. When the NME
was redesignated as the DoD in August 1949, the seal was
retained and the identifying wording changed.

These labels could not therefore have been imprinted with the
NME stamp until October 1947 at the earliest.

By that time, according to what is supposedly the cameraman's
tale, he was 'giving up' asking Washington to collect the reels
held beck for 'further processing'. Problem is, as I have
demonstrated, those reels are not extracts, they contained
pretty much all of the 'autopsy' footage which could conceivably
have been filmed.

That no-one amongst the United States' most senior, trusted
military, government and medical experts ever watched the
footage and didn't noticed practically all of the film was
missing, is not a tenable scenario.

Even for them. ;)

Bottom line - whilst no evidence that any component of these
purported 'labels' is a deliberate fake and possibly indications
otherwise, there remains considerable evidence and probable
proof why the 'autopsy' footage and accompanying claims are
hugely 'untrustworthy'.

Still, that does look to be the NME's stamp... and Ray Santilli
did factually acquire a large collection of rare Elvis Presley
memorabilia in the US during the summer of 1992 and did say it
took a long time before he had funds to buy the 'Roswell'
film... and there are indications he subsequently did have some
footage, maybe old film transferred to video, which he sincerely
believed was of 'aliens'... and...

Unless any of the above is significant and although maybe worth
noting, then nothing changes and a hoax is a hoax...

Except when it's MJ-12, of course ;)


James.







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                Last Lines Of Ramey Message [was: Re: Filer's

From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 20:32:27 -0400 (EDT)
Fwd Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 11:25:52 -0400
Subject: Last Lines Of Ramey Message [was: Re: Filer's


 >From: George A. Filer <Majorstar@aol.com>
 >Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 14:02:04 -0400 (EDT)
 >Fwd Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 18:06:36 -0400
 >Subject: Filer's Files #14 -- 2000

 >FOUR RAMEY MESSAGE COMPARISONS

 >Neil Morris writes from the University of Manchester in England.
 >Several distinguished groups are attempting to interpret the
 >writing on a message held in General Ramey's hand taken in the
 >Commander's 8th Air Force office by photographer James Bond
 >Johnson in July of 1947. David Rudiak's sent his "take" of the
 >message and allowed me to include it in the comparisons of
 >readings taken from a message that takes up a tiny portion of
 >the photograph. It has taken fifty years and modern computers to
 >attempt to read the message. There are several interpretations
 >of the message and we should emphasize that the various "takes"
 >are far from being set in stone and represent a "snap-shot" of a
 >work in progress as of April. The interpretations, I am sure,
 >WILL change and evolve as time goes on.

Indeed they shall. I already have some important amendments to
my "take" since Neil sent this off to George Filer, particularly
in the last three lines of the message. The following I now
believe very accurately conveys the content of these lines:

(Capital letters/words denote higher confidence as to accuracy.
xxxxx's denote my letter counts of words; dashes (-) denote
uncertainty as to space or character;  ?? denotes uncertain left
edge partially obscured. Use nonproportional font such as
Courier for proper viewing.)

Line 5.
                                   ......xx xxxxxxxx xxxxx-
                          ......AT ROSWELL. ASsure [Affirm]

Line 6.
  ??xx-x-xxxxxx xxxx xxxx xxxxxxxx xxxxxxx xx xxxxx xxx xxxx
  thaT ciC-teAM SAID SEND MiStatEd rElease AS STORY And said
                                          [MiStakEn] [mEaning/message/vErsion]

Line 7.
  ??-xxxxxxx xxxx xxxx xxx xx-xx xxxxxxx xxxxxxxx xxxxx xxxx
(story)theY nEXt SEND OUT is OF WEATHER BALLOONS would farE[takE]

COPY  [Stamp in large letters partially obscuring left edge of lines 7 & 8]

Line 8.
  ??-xxxx-x xxxx xxx xxxx xxxxxxxxx xxxxx.
(better if)THEY ADD LAND DRopsONDE CreWS.
                                                           <"stage">
[Handwriting beneath "dropsonde"]
                                                  <"photos     [Handwriting
beneath/between
                                                        yes.">       "land
dropsonde]


These lines are about the Roswell cover-up. If my take on these
lines is accurate (and I strongly feel that it is), then a
scenario something like the following emerges. A
counter-intelligence team was in charge (the "CIC-TEAM"). [There
may also be a reference to another "team" up on the third line
of the message (according to interpretations by Don Burleson and
myself) that handled wreckage transported to Fort Worth.
("...THE WRECK YOU FORWARDED TO THE --TEAM(?) AT FORT WORTH,
TEX.")]

Ramey seems to be asking (or had asked) for confirmation that
this team was responsible for the original mistated/mistaken
story. (Ramey would therefore appear not to be fully in-the-loop
on this matter.) Thus the captured crashed disk press release
from Roswell base was no accident and probably not the handiwork
of regular Roswell or 8th AAF personnel.  Instead the press
release was a plan put into action by the CI team in charge.

The CI team also apparently thought that the follow-up weather
balloon story next being sent out (not clear who originated it)
would fly better if they bolstered it with "land dropsonde
crews."

To which most Update readers will ask, "What the devil is a
'dropsonde'?" A "dropsonde" is a specialized meteorological word
for a weather balloon radiosonde that is dropped by parachute,
usually from a plane, but sometimes lofted by a balloon. (You
can go look it up in your Funk and Wagnall's, which is where I
got it.)  A "dropsonde crew" is just an obtuse and unusual way
of saying a weather balloon crew. Add weather balloon crews to
increase credibility of the weather balloon story says the
message.

This last part of the message is referring to the military
weather balloon demonstrations that followed immediately after
Roswell used to debunk Roswell and the recent national wave of
flying saucer sightings. This is a matter of historical record.
Alamogordo was one of these on July 9, but there were others,
including one at Fort Worth AAF on July 10 covered by the Fort
Worth Star-Telegram (James Bond Johnson's newspaper) which
published one of the photos on July 11.

The handwriting underneath "land dropsonde crews", possibly
Ramey's, says to "stage" one of the demonstrations and make sure
photos were taken ("photos yes.").

And so it was done a day and a half later at Fort Worth AAF.

There also appears to be a "COPY" stamp at the left edge of two
of these lines (partially obscuring the words). This wasn't the
original but a copy of a message recently sent out or received.

This message obviously contains many important clues as to what
happened at Roswell. (And I haven't even talked about the
"victims of the wreck" phrase up near the top of the message.)
The provenance of this document is unquestionable. Gen. Ramey
himself is holding the smoking gun in his hand over the dead
body of a weather balloon.

Where is this message now? If Roswell was truly a "nonevent" as
the modern AF counterintelligence team labeled it, then Ramey's
message, copy or original, should be in some archive somewhere
along with other of Ramey's or 8th AF documents. We can settle
all arguments over exactly what it says by obtaining a copy of
it. What harm could possibly come of it?

On the other hand, if Roswell was a lot more than a crashed
Mogul balloon, then we can expect to get the usual run-around
from the Air Force during FOIA requests. They will stall for
years in their "search," or deny it ever existed, or say it was
lost or destroyed, or send researchers off on wild-goose chases.
We'll see what happens.

David Rudiak








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   Apr > Apr 12

                            Re: NASA Flying Disk

From: Donald Leger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 19:29:36 -0300
Fwd Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 11:28:20 -0400
Subject: Re: NASA Flying Disk


 >Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 17:09:43 -0500 (CDT)
 >From: Brian Cuthbertson <brianc@fc.net>
 >Subject: NASA Flying Disk
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >Well, it appears NASA is investigating flying disk propulsion
 >after all; though they don't claim it has anything to do with
 >antigravity (yet):

 >http://science.nasa.gov/newhome/headlines/prop16apr99_1.htm

 >-Brian C.


Hi Brian,

I've seen more than a few experiments with the proto-disc on TLC
a few times. It's interesting and it works, but will likely be
many years in development... and expensive.

Don







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                 Re: Auto Immune Diseases With The Abduction

From: Brian Cuthbertson <brianc@fc.net>
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 20:31:57 -0500 (CDT)
Fwd Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 11:30:24 -0400
Subject: Re: Auto Immune Diseases With The Abduction


 >Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 09:08:08 -0400 (EDT)
 >From: Susan Mann <Smann56@aol.com>
 >Subject: Re: Auto Immune Diseases With The Abduction Phenomena
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >My husband and I have been involved with UFOs and abductions
 >most of our lives. There are some people in our group that have
 >MS, diabetes (which is an auto-immune problem) supposedly lyme
 >etc.

 >The things that I have read on the Internet during the past few
 >years lead up to the fact that it is very common in the UFO
 >field to have problems like that.

 >One theory I was given is, that possibly UFOs cause a problem
 >with the magnetic field which supposedly throws your immune
 >system off. Once your immune system isn't working right you end
 >up with a problem.

Very interesting: a testable earthly equivalent would be workers
in power generation facilities and other locations where large
magnetic fields are likely. I wonder if such folks also have
higher incidents of auto-immune problems.

-Brian C.







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               Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947

From: William Sawers <wsawers@ihug.co.nz>
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 13:37:28 +1200
Fwd Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 11:33:12 -0400
Subject: Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947


 >Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 03:40:29 -0400
 >From: Michel M. Deschamps <ufoman@ican.net>
 >Subject: Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2000 22:03:44 -0400 (EDT)
 >>From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
 >>Subject: Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947
 >>To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >>>Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2000 11:50:23 -0800
 >>>From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman@psln.com>
 >>>Subject: Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>>>Date: Sat, 08 Apr 2000 17:46:40 -0400
 >>>>From: Steven W. Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
 >>>>Subject: Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947
 >>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

<snip>

 >The AA creature has six fingers/six toes and may have come from
 >a totally different crash site.

 >Has anybody else ever thought about it from this perspective?

 >Michel M. Deschamps


Not quite from this perspective Michel, but the idea of
different numbers of appendages begs the question......

If the aliens are involved or proficient in gene manipulation,
could it be they are able to manipulate any number of appendages
Six fingers, for a pilot where an extra digit could be extremely
handy, say... if manipulations on a control panel with _twelve_
switches/levers proved to be difficult with 10 fingers . All
designated pilots are given a simple gene splice(?) to grow that
extra digit. :) Voila!

Mediocre pilot becomes Hans Solo.

Maybe in some cases four is the optimum Number... though I
hesitate to offer any example of an occupation where a thumb may
be omitted without any handicap (no offence to any thumbless
characters on the list).

Maybe a proffessional "waver-goodby-er-uh"?


Regards

William ;)









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              Wilbert Brockhouse Smith At UFO UpDates Canadian

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 12:07:39 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 12:07:39 -0400
Subject: Wilbert Brockhouse Smith At UFO UpDates Canadian




There are the beginnings of a Wilbert Smith archive
linked-off the MUFON Ontario site at:

http://www3.sympatico.ca/updates/mufon/index.htm

Click the Canadian Archives in the left column and
follow the links.

ebk







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                 Re: Auto Immune Diseases With The Abduction

From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman@psln.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 08:23:09 -0800
Fwd Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 20:17:50 -0400
Subject: Re: Auto Immune Diseases With The Abduction


Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 15:40:56 -0400 (EDT)
To: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Auto Immune Diseases With The Abduction Phenomena
To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >A theory is beginning to appear. Some of the mails should really
 >be shared with Updates for the benefit of other (arrrrg)
 >researchers. I urge those you who have privately communicated
 >your data with me, to post it on Updates. I find the information

Errol & list,

I believe Jim wanted me to post this which I sent to him re: MS.
This is the introduction to a series of articles ( concerned
with bacterial infection and Biowarfare) that will appear in the
next issue of FLATLAND #17. http://www.flatlandbooks.com


A Good Soldier
By
Ed Gehrman


He fell suddenly, not a hundred feet from my moving car. It was
a solid, bone breaking tumble and I was surprised when he got to
his feet, brushed himself off and resumed walking hesitantly
toward a car parked next to the curb from which he'd just
fallen. I drove slowly alongside, then braked and asked if he
were all right.  He smiled when he saw me; I recognized him as
one of my daughter's friends, Sam. I had known him for over ten
years. We'd met just after his return from an enlistment with
Army Rangers. It had come as a shock to all of us when we
learned he had Multiple Sclerosis. He'd gone to a doctor because
of numbness in his leg and blurred vision and after extended
testing, was diagnosed with the disease.

Over the years I'd hear bits and pieces of Sam's progress from
my daughter. After I witnessed his fall, I asked her for an
update and she told me that he'd had some problems walking and
that he was using a cane most of the time. I asked her what he
was doing for money and she said that he was getting paid by the
Army, full disability and all medical benefits.  I was
dumbfounded and told her that she must be wrong and would she
check as soon as possible. She did and confirmed that he was
indeed receiving full benefits and that MS was considered a
service connected disability.

I found this so hard to believe that I contacted Sam myself and
he agreed to an interview. He confirmed that he was on
disability. He said that the VA will grant disability status if
the condition becomes apparent to a degree of ten percent or
more within seven years from the date of a veteran's separation
from the service. Sam didn�t realize he was eligible for these
benefits until a friend, an ex-serviceman, told him, three years
after his initial diagnosis. The VA confirmed Sam's disability
and service connection.

I�m glad that Sam's needs are being met by the VA. He was a good
soldier.  But it�s difficult, if not impossible to understand
the VA�s reasoning and justification for granting disability
status and a service connection for MS. There is no know cause
for MS. If the cause is unknown, how can a connection be made
between a person�s stay in the service and MS. It doesn�t make
sense. A service connected disability can be granted for any
condition which is incurred or aggravated by a veteran�s
military service.  The big questions are: What is it in the
service environment that causes folks to become susceptible to
MS and how did the VA make a connection between this
environmental factor, service in the armed forces, and Multiple
Sclerosis?

Multiple Sclerosis is an unpredictable disease of the central
nervous system. Myelin, which facilitates the high speed
transmission of electrochemical impulses between the brain and
the spinal cord, becomes scarred and hardened into what are
known as plaques. These multiple plaques damage the myelin and
cause the neurological transmissions to be slowed or blocked
completely which leads to diminished and, sometimes, lost
functioning. The symptoms, severity and duration of MS varies
from person to person. Most patients experience muscle weakness
and loss of muscular control, fatigue, vision problems and
cognitive impairments such as poor memory and concentration.
Other symptoms include pain, tremor, vertigo, bladder and bowel
dysfunction, depression and euphoria.

There are 350,000 Americans who have MS and about two hundred
new cases are diagnosed each week. Most folks experience their
first symptoms between the age of twenty and forty, rarely
before fifteen and seldom after sixty. Caucasians are more than
twice as likely to contract MS than other races; MS is five
times more prevalent in temperate climates than in tropical.
There does seem to be a genetic relationship or connection
between those who are susceptible to MS.  In the population at
large, a person has a one-tenth of one percent chance of
contracting MS but if one person in a family has MS then the
other family members have a three percent chance of getting it
also.

The cause for MS is not known. Some think it�s an auto immune
disease that launches an attack on its own tissues. While this
is certainly a clear possibility, nothing conclusive has ever
been established.  One plausible theory is that the causative
agent could be a unique microorganism such as a mycoplasma.
These poorly understood organisms are able to alter protein, and
then sensitize the host against itself. For example it was found
that mycoplasmas can cause the formation of the rheumatoid
factor. A similar mechanism could apply to Lupus and many other
auto immune disorders. Another interesting factor is that
females, who are infected four times more frequently with
mycoplasmas than males, are twice as likely to contract MS.

But this is all only speculation because the truth is we simply
don't know what causes MS.  Then how did the VA decide that MS
was connected to a person�s stay in the Armed Forces? I wrote
the Department Of Defense, through Barbara Boxer�s office, and
they refused to answer any questions. I also contacted the
Veterans Administration. They did confirm that MS was a service
connected disability and answered some of my inquiries. They
seemed puzzled that I was skeptical of the MS disability
designation and informed me that "congressional legislation
would be required to change these provisions of the law".

There are currently about eleven thousand veterans who have been
granted a service connected disability for MS. The only
condition is that the disease be confirmed within seven years of
a veteran's separation from service.  As any one familiar with
the labyrinthian process of obtaining a service related
disability can attest, it isn't easy getting money from the VA.
The problems surrounding "Gulf War Illness" is a certain
reminder of this fact.

The VA and the Department Of Defense must possess information
that they�re not sharing with the rest of us and certainly not
with the new enlistees. I know the Sargent isn't telling new
recruits that they should look out for MS, as they do with AIDS
or syphilis.  If there is a chance that MS might be contracted
or complicated by their time in military service, then why
aren�t enlistees told this? Would this complicate the
recruitment process? Probably, but I have the sneaking suspicion
that it would complicate something far more important to the
modern Armed Forces: vaccinations. This is the one factor, aside
from the traditional haircut, that all service folks have in
common. If, as some believe, the causative agent is a
mycoplasma, vaccinations could conceivably be the mode of
transmission.

What bothers me most is that I'm sure the VA and the DOD have
research that justifies granting this disability to thousands of
veterans. If they have information that connects MS to military
service, then we should all know what that information is.
Multiple Sclerosis is a serious and growing disorder that
afflicts millions of persons. To purposefully withhold
information that would better our understanding of this disease
is unjustified.








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                            Re: NASA Flying Disk

From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 12:18:06 -0400 (EDT)
Fwd Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 20:24:45 -0400
Subject: Re: NASA Flying Disk


 >From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
 >Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 08:32:31 -0300
 >Fwd Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 11:08:56 -0400
 >Subject: Re: NASA Flying Disk


 >>Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 17:09:43 -0500 (CDT)
 >>From: Brian Cuthbertson <brianc@fc.net>
 >>Subject: NASA Flying Disk
 >>To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >Folks,

 >Well, it appears NASA is investigating flying disk propulsion
 >after all; though they don't claim it has anything to do with
 >antigravity (yet):

 >>http://science.nasa.gov/newhome/headlines/prop16apr99_1.htm


 >Dr, Leik Myrabo is a courageous scientist with whom I met in
 >California more than 20 years ago.

 >We discussed magneto-aerodynamic propulsion systems such as the
 >ones I noted in my 1968 Congressional testimony and letters in
 >Physics Today and Aeronautics and Astronautics.

 >He actually arranged speaking engagements for myself and Dr.
 >Bruce Maccabee and others a few years back at RPI. I also spoke
 >with his class.

 >Really sharp. Two thumbs up. No antigravity involved at this
 >time.

Stan,

James McCampbell (former NASA engineer, author of "Ufoology" to
those unfamiliar with him) told me that Myrabo also came to his
house and picked his brains for the better part of a day.

McCampbell's theories of UFO physics include the use of
microwaves to generate something akin to Myrabo's "air spike"
for hypersonic flight and eliminating sonic boom. However,
McCampbell hasn't advanced magneto-hydrodynamic UFO propulsion,
instead believing that they somehow reduce their effective mass,
the emitted microwaves perhaps being a byproduct. No theories as
to how this might be done, however.

Myrabo _has_ been influenced or inspired by the more serious UFO
scientific theorists. UFOs may indeed use "air spikes" and MHD
propulsion to move around, similar to what Myrabo is playing
arouind with now. I too see no evidence, however, that Myrabo is
working with antigravity.

I agree with Stan that Myrabo is a courageous and also a
visionary scientist. His work may someday revolutionize the
aerospace industry.

Thanks to Brian Cuthbertson for the Web link and the update on
Myrabo's work.


David Rudiak







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               Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947

From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 12:39:26 -0400 (EDT)
Fwd Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 20:28:37 -0400
Subject: Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947


 >From: William Sawers <wsawers@ihug.co.nz>
 >Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 13:37:28 +1200
 >Fwd Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 11:33:12 -0400
 >Subject: Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947


 >Not quite from this perspective Michel, but the idea of
different numbers of appendages begs the question......

<snip>

 >Maybe in some cases four is the optimum Number... though I
 >hesitate to offer any example of an occupation where a thumb may
be omitted without any handicap (no offence to any thumbless
characters on the list).

For one thing, thumblessness means they couldn't find gainful
employment as movie reviewers in the United States.

On a more serious note, thumblessness does not necessarily mean
lack of opposable digits for fine manipulation. In the Allagash
Abductions by Raymond Fowler, one of the abductees, a very good
artist, drew pictures of the four-fingered "grey" hands.

According to him, they were able to "fold" their wrists down the
center thus bringing not one, but two sets of digits into
opposition. That was a solution to the grey's thumblessness
problem I certainly hadn't thought of before.

Instead of "two thumbs up", grey movie reviews might thus read,
"Highly recommended -- a four-pincer blockbuster!"

Unfold the hand and they have 8 fingers for gripping or typing,
just like we do.

 From this we can probably also deduce the grey's keyboard lacks
a spacebar. 8-)

David Rudiak







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                       Re: Last Lines Of Ramey Message

From: James Bond Johnson <JBONJO@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 12:56:56 -0400 (EDT)
Fwd Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 20:33:58 -0400
Subject: Re: Last Lines Of Ramey Message


 >Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 20:32:27 -0400 (EDT)
 >From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@aol.com>
 >Subject: Last Lines Of Ramey Message [was: Re: Filer's Files #14]
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >>From: George A. Filer <Majorstar@aol.com>
 >>Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 14:02:04 -0400 (EDT)
 >>Fwd Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 18:06:36 -0400
 >>Subject: Filer's Files #14 -- 2000

 >>FOUR RAMEY MESSAGE COMPARISONS

<snip>

 >Ramey seems to be asking (or had asked) for confirmation that
 >this team was responsible for the original mistated/mistaken
 >story. (Ramey would therefore appear not to be fully in-the-loop
 >on this matter.) Thus the captured crashed disk press release
 >from Roswell base was no accident and probably not the handiwork
 >of regular Roswell or 8th AAF personnel. Instead the press
 >release was a plan put into action by the CI team in charge.

This also could explain why the RAAF "Flying Saucer Captured"
press release was issued on the authority of Major Marcel as the
command intelligence staffer - who was indeed working closely
with the intel team - rather than by the base Commanding
Officer, Colonel Blanchard.

James Bond Johnson







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   Apr > Apr 12

                            Re: NASA Flying Disk

From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@yorku.ca>
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 14:57:57 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time)
Fwd Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 20:47:06 -0400
Subject: Re: NASA Flying Disk


 >Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 19:29:36 -0300
 >From: Donald Leger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
 >Subject: Re: NASA Flying Disk
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >>Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 17:09:43 -0500 (CDT)
 >>From: Brian Cuthbertson <brianc@fc.net>
 >>Subject: NASA Flying Disk
 >>To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >>Well, it appears NASA is investigating flying disk propulsion
 >>after all; though they don't claim it has anything to do with
 >>antigravity (yet):

 >>http://science.nasa.gov/newhome/headlines/prop16apr99_1.htm

 >I've seen more than a few experiments with the proto-disc on TLC
 >a few times. It's interesting and it works, but will likely be
 >many years in development... and expensive.

Hi everybody.

Some of you on this list who were watching the CBC late evening
news on TV on Monday may have caught the story of one man's
efforts to have at least one of the two Canadian built flying
saucers known to exist brought back here. This man (I did not
note his name) who is writing a book about our 'flying saucer',
the Avrocar, did not specify where it will be housed in Canada.

[Phil Duke is his name - I caught the item on video --ebk]

Well, I will suggest a place which just happens to be close to
where the Avrocar was built.

An article I saved from The (Toronto) Sunday Sun, February 27,
2000 said the following:


NEW MUSEUM TAKES OFF: The city is getting a new museum - the
Toronto Aerospace Museum - devoted to the region's history of
aviation and aerospace activities. It will be lo- cated in one
of de Havilland Canada's aircraft hangers on the former
Downsview airport property.

One of the museum's first artifacts is the Lancaster bomber that
for years deteriorat- ed on its concrete pedestal on Lake Shore
Blvd. ...

Museum officials also have an ambitious plan to build a
full-scale replica of the Arrow #25203...
_____

What has all this to do with UFOs you may ask? In the past few
months much has been released about the secret history of the
Avrocar and its subsequent evolution in the U.S. (eg. Project
Silverbug). If you felt the Avrocar project was simply nothing
more than a disk shaped craft which did nothing more than just
hover inches about the ground, then you just have to check out
some of the newly discovered photos taken in Canada which were
published in March 26, 2000 issue of The London Sunday Times
which proves it was something much more.

One thing which I find very interesting is how closely the
authenticated horseshoe shaped Franklin Mint Roswell version of
the 1947 Roswell UFO looks much like our secret horseshoe shaped
Canadian Avrocar flying saucer. Too close for coincidence?

Canadians frequently travel to the U.S. during our cold winters
in search of sun and warm weather. Could the Roswell UFO have
been one of own snowbirds which was brought down or was it an
E.T. craft which may have been brought to Canada to be reverse
engineered by the same world class aerospace scientists and
engineers who built the AVRO Arrow and also helped the U.S. to
achieve another goal - of landing men on another world.

I just hope that the new Toronto Aerospace Museum will
eventually house not only all the historical documents of the
Avrocar and other British/Canadian/American flying saucer
projects but also encourage others to come forward and share
much of the still secret Canadian research into flying saucers
which has only been hinted at in the past.

Nick Balaskas








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   Apr > Apr 12

                       Re: Last Lines Of Ramey Message

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 15:14:26 -0400 (EDT)
Fwd Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 20:53:50 -0400
Subject: Re: Last Lines Of Ramey Message


 >Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 20:32:27 -0400 (EDT)
 >From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@aol.com>
 >Subject: Last Lines Of Ramey Message [was: Re: Filer's Files #14]
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >>From: George A. Filer <Majorstar@aol.com>
 >>Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 14:02:04 -0400 (EDT)
 >>Fwd Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 18:06:36 -0400
 >>Subject: Filer's Files #14 -- 2000

 >>FOUR RAMEY MESSAGE COMPARISONS
 >>Snip

 >Line 5.
 >                                  ......xx xxxxxxxx xxxxx-
 >                         ......AT ROSWELL. ASsure [Affirm]

 >Line 6.
 > ??xx-x-xxxxxx xxxx xxxx xxxxxxxx xxxxxxx xx xxxxx xxx xxxx
 > thaT ciC-teAM SAID SEND MiStatEd rElease AS STORY And said
 >                                 [MiStakEn] [mEaning/message/
 >vErsion]

 >Line 7.
 > ??-xxxxxxx xxxx xxxx xxx xx-xx xxxxxxx xxxxxxxx xxxxx xxxx
 >(story)theY nEXt SEND OUT is OF WEATHER BALLOONS would farE[takE]

 >COPY [Stamp in large letters partially obscuring left edge of
 >lines 7 & 8]

 >Line 8.
 > ??-xxxx-x xxxx xxx xxxx xxxxxxxxx xxxxx.
 >(better if)THEY ADD LAND DRopsONDE CreWS.
 >                                                 <"stage">
 >[Handwriting beneath "dropsonde"]
 >                                                 <"photos
[Handwriting
 >beneath/between
 >                                                  yes.">    "land
 >dropsonde]

 >These lines are about the Roswell cover-up. If my take on these
 >lines is accurate (and I strongly feel that it is), then a
 >scenario something like the following emerges. A
 >counter-intelligence team was in charge (the "CIC-TEAM"). [There
 >may also be a reference to another "team" up on the third line
 >of the message (according to interpretations by Don Burleson and
 >myself) that handled wreckage transported to Fort Worth.
 >("...THE WRECK YOU FORWARDED TO THE --TEAM(?) AT FORT WORTH,
 >TEX.")]

<snip>

 >This message obviously contains many important clues as to what
 >happened at Roswell. (And I haven't even talked about the
 >"victims of the wreck" phrase up near the top of the message.)
 >The provenance of this document is unquestionable. Gen. Ramey
 >himself is holding the smoking gun in his hand over the dead
 >body of a weather balloon.

 >Where is this message now? If Roswell was truly a "nonevent" as
 >the modern AF counterintelligence team labeled it, then Ramey's
 >message, copy or original, should be in some archive somewhere
 >along with other of Ramey's or 8th AF documents. We can settle
 >all arguments over exactly what it says by obtaining a copy of
 >it. What harm could possibly come of it?

 >On the other hand, if Roswell was a lot more than a crashed
 >Mogul balloon, then we can expect to get the usual run-around
 >from the Air Force during FOIA requests. They will stall for
 >years in their "search," or deny it ever existed, or say it was
 >lost or destroyed, or send researchers off on wild-goose chases.
 >We'll see what happens.

 >David Rudiak


Whether a true reading or not. Whether debunked or boned, let me
take this opportunity to congratulate you on the work. _This_ is
righteous research. Devoid of pelican droppings, swamp gas and
horse hockey.  Not a drop of Gripple in the work.

Jim Mortellaro






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   Apr > Apr 12

                 Re: Auto Immune Diseases With The Abduction

From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@yorku.ca>
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 18:49:20 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time)
Fwd Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 21:08:06 -0400
Subject: Re: Auto Immune Diseases With The Abduction

 >Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 10:14:50 -0700
 >From: Kathy Hotchner <khotchner@uswest.net>
 >Subject: Re: Auto Immune Diseases With The Abduction Phenomena
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

<snip>

 >Perhaps I may well have discovered some. I will let the readers
 >be the judge of that for now. It has come to light through my
 >own research into the subject of UFO's & alien abduction and it
 >would appear at first glance that there may well be a link with
 >"Myalgic Encephalomyelitis" (Chronic Fatigue Syndrome) and the
 >alien abduction scenario. I have during the course of my work
 >over the last two years been a friendly ear to an abductee, a
 >thirty-two year old female from the UK who as well as having a
 >long history of medical problems has been diagnosed with M.E.
 >(Chronic Fatigue Syndrome). Even more interesting is that she is
 >a member of an abductee group that meets once a month in London.

<snip>

Hi Errol.

In response to the latest e-mail I got from Dr. Phillip Duke, a
clinical pathologist, I forwarded to him Kathy Hotchner's post
to UFO UpDates since what she had to say is closely related to
what Phillip is currently working on in his UFOs/AIDS research.

Below is the reply I got from Phillip.  Although what he has to
say may be of interest to many UFO UpDates list subscribers, his
closing comments may be embarrassing for him.

BTW, is UFO UpDates really a CIA sponsored operation? If you
are on the CIA payroll, I would ask for a big well deserved
raise.  ;o)


Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 08:08:07 -0700
From: PHILLIP S DUKE <drpduke@juno.com>

Nick, thanks for the information. Many abductees are chronically
fatigued and some are diagnosed with CFS, the cause of which is
medically unknown. Statistically there is a connection between
CFS and ET alien abduction no doubt of it.

Based on my published research article on drpduke.com "Abductee
Physiologic Abnormalities..." abductee Vitamin A deficiency
results in endocrine deficiencies probably including
glucocorticoids such as cortisol. These in turn can be expected
to weaken the immune system, and also result in chronic fatigue.

My recommendation for such persons at this time is to see your
physician, then attempt vitamin A/endocrine correction as the
posted article indicatest lots of carrots. This has helped
numbers of abductees. They state this.

Kathy Hotchner is invited to contact me directly I am Emailing
her a copy of this Email. Kathy, please read the Report posted on
drpduke.com thanks.

I no longer subscribe to UFO Updates - they choose only to
criticize my research. I have a little supporting evidence that
they are CIA sponsored. Where do YOU think their funding comes
from?

Keep me informed of any relevant to my work developments thanks.

Nice hearing from you.

Best regards, Phillip S. Duke Ph.D.

[Philip Duke - Beware! The Company doesn't like people who let
  cats out of bags... <ROFLM> "Funding"? Uh, the nice folk at
  KRAFT Macaroni & Cheese. Gawd, this man is a researcher?
  Who wants to be taken seriously? --ebk]







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   Apr > Apr 13

                       Re: Last Lines Of Ramey Message

From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 23:18:07 -0300
Fwd Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 00:28:43 -0400
Subject: Re: Last Lines Of Ramey Message


 >Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 12:56:56 -0400 (EDT)
 >From: James Bond Johnson <JBONJO@aol.com>
 >Subject: Re: Last Lines Of Ramey Message
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >>Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 20:32:27 -0400 (EDT)
 >>From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@aol.com>
 >>Subject: Last Lines Of Ramey Message [was: Re: Filer's Files #14]
 >>To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >>>From: George A. Filer <Majorstar@aol.com>
 >>>Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 14:02:04 -0400 (EDT)
 >>>Fwd Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 18:06:36 -0400
 >>>Subject: Filer's Files #14 -- 2000

 >>>FOUR RAMEY MESSAGE COMPARISONS

 ><snip>

 >>Ramey seems to be asking (or had asked) for confirmation that
 >>this team was responsible for the original mistated/mistaken
 >>story. (Ramey would therefore appear not to be fully in-the-loop
 >>on this matter.) Thus the captured crashed disk press release
 >>from Roswell base was no accident and probably not the handiwork
 >>of regular Roswell or 8th AAF personnel. Instead the press
 >>release was a plan put into action by the CI team in charge.

 >This also could explain why the RAAF "Flying Saucer Captured"
 >press release was issued on the authority of Major Marcel as the
 >command intelligence staffer - who was indeed working closely
 >with the intel team - rather than by the base Commanding
 >Officer, Colonel Blanchard.

 >James Bond Johnson

I hate to ask, but where is the evidence that Major Marcel had
anything to do with the press release, as opposed to Walter Haut
acting on the authority of Colonel Blanchard? Jesse certainly
never said any such thing to me. Walter, who knew Jesse, also
has never said that Jesse had anything to do with the release...

Stan Friedman







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   Apr > Apr 13

                      TMP News: Weekly Briefing 4.12.00

From: Paul Anderson <psa@direct.ca>
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 19:58:31 -0700
Fwd Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 00:29:59 -0400
Subject: TMP News: Weekly Briefing 4.12.00


TMP NEWS
The E-News Service of The Millennium Project

http://persweb.direct.ca/psa

April 12, 2000

_____________________________



WEEKLY BRIEFING
4.12.00


The William Thomas chemtrail presentation on April 8 was a great
success, with a near-capacity audience in the Space Centre
auditorium. A good step forward in bringing more attention to
this issue among the public. Some excellent new video was shown,
including recent footage from California showing a massing of
many 'chemtrails' in parallel rows spanning the whole sky like a
floating furrowed field. Normal air traffic? Not likely. This is
what is being reported, by eyewitnesses in the thousands now,
across the US, Canada and parts of Europe. Evidence for a link
between this activity and a large-scale attempt at preventing or
slowing global warming was presented, as well as possible
biowarfare/ opulation control projects being conducted, by the
US Air Force and possibly other agencies. The resulting effect,
whether incidental or intentional, is that many, many people are
apparently being made sick (and some dying) in the process. Is
the military (once again) playing god? It would appear so. Mr.
Thomas was well received by those attending, and will certainly
be back in the near future to do an update. In response to
requests, yes the lecture was taped, by two film crews, one for
local TV and one for possible commercial availability.
Arrangements are still being made with Mr. Thomas, and TMP News
will advise when and if copies become available. Mr. Thomas is
also working on his own chemtrail video documentary, to be
available in the near future. Many thanks to UFO*BC for their
assistance in making this presentation possible.

Other upcoming presentations by TMP include a crop circle
lecture at the West Point Grey Community Centre in Vancouver on
May 8 (TMP / CPR-Canada), and a TMP mini-conference in
Vancouver, 'Strange Days', to be held in June, with speakers
including UFO*BC (UFOs), Fern Belzil (Animal Mutilations), Jon
Kelly (Reverse Speech) and TMP founder Paul Anderson (Crop
Circle and Chemtrail Updates). Others to be confirmed. Also,
presentations for the CONTACT group in Bellingham, Washington in
June (TMP / CPR-Canada), the UFO2000 conference in St. Paul,
Alberta in July (TMP / CPR-Canada) and the CCCS crop circle
conference in Andover, England in August (TMP / CPR-Canada;
tentative). Further details in subsequent TMP News updates.

The surprise release by NASA of additional Cydonia images
(featuring the famous "fort" and "tholus") from the Mars Global
Surveyor (never seen until now) tops this week's other news. TMP
will be doing its own examination of these new photos and report
any significant findings.


NEWS AND REPORTS:


NASA RELEASES 'NEW' MARS CYDONIA IMAGES
http://www.msss.com/mars_images/moc/4_5_00_cydonia/index.html

COVERAGE OF THE NEW CYDONIA PHOTOS - THE ENTERPRISE MISSION
http://www.enterprisemission.com/newcydonia.html

SPACECRAFT PASSES THROUGH 350-MILLION-MILE COMET TAIL
http://CNN.com/2000/TECH/space/04/06/space.comet.reut/index.html

DISCOVERING THE REAL STORY OF THE APOLLO JOURNEY
http://www.abcnews.go.com/onair/CloserLook/wnt_000331_CL_apollo_feature.html

'BATMOBILE' ON MARS
http://persweb.direct.ca/psa/batmobile.html

NASA, EU REPORT MASSIVE ARCTIC OZONE LOSS
http://CNN.com/2000/NATURE/04/06/space.ozone.reut/index.html

SCIENTISTS ANNOUNCE MAJOR ADVANCE IN GENOME RESEARCH
http://CNN.com/2000/HEALTH/04/06/genome.mapping/index.html

YUKON FIREBALL MYSTERY ENDURES
http://www.whitehorsestar.com/News.lasso?r=33262

SPECTACULAR AURORA OVER SWEDEN - APRIL 7, 2000
http://persweb.direct.ca/psa/aurora.jpg


_____________________________


See also the TMP web site for complete listings of news stories,
reports and related information and links:

http://persweb.direct.ca/psa

_____________________________


TMP News is the electronic news service of The Millennium
Project, providing weekly briefings of the latest relevant news
stories and reports, as well as information and updates on
TMP-related news and events. TMP News is edited by Paul Anderson
and published by TMP, and is available free by subscription; to
be added to or removed from the mailing list, send your request,
including "subscribe TMP News" or "unsubscribe TMP News" and
e-mail address to:

psa@direct.ca

For further information, submissions or inquiries, forward all
correspondence to:

THE MILLENNIUM PROJECT

Suite 202 - 2086 West 2nd Avenue
Vancouver, BC   V6J 1J4   Canada
Tel / Fax (Office): 604.731.8522
Tel (Cell): 604.727.1454
E-Mail: psa@direct.ca
Web: http://persweb.direct.ca/psa

_____________________________


� The Millennium Project, 2000








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              Investigation of 1952 'Talk Startles Crowd' Issue

From: Kenny Young <ufo@fuse.net>
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 23:38:31 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 00:33:37 -0400
Subject: Investigation of 1952 'Talk Startles Crowd' Issue


An investigation into the 1952 "Talk Startles Crowd" newspaper
article involving Joseph Rohrer of Pikes Peak Broadcasting
Company has concluded. Rohrer alleged that a UFO occupant had
been held in an incubator in California.

This occupant, one survivor among three separate 'saucers' that
had supposedly crashed in Montana, was able to communicate
through pictures, and had shown "great interest in them."
Communication with this being was undertaken using various steps
used to teach children to read and write, according to Rohrer,
who also told of how the saucers are "put together in five
sections and come apart easily after the center section is
removed."

The case is now resolved. To review the details of the
investigation, go to -

http://home.fuse.net/ufo/rohrer.html

Thanks,
Kenny Young
--
UFO Research
http://home.fuse.net/ufo/







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               Re: Investigation of 1952 'Talk Startles Crowd'

From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 07:20:01 -0300
Fwd Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 14:40:46 -0400
Subject: Re: Investigation of 1952 'Talk Startles Crowd'


 >Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 23:38:31 -0400
 >From: Kenny Young <ufo@fuse.net>
 >Subject: Investigation of 1952 'Talk Startles Crowd' Issue
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >An investigation into the 1952 "Talk Startles Crowd" newspaper
 >article involving Joseph Rohrer of Pikes Peak Broadcasting
 >Company has concluded. Rohrer alleged that a UFO occupant had
 >been held in an incubator in California.

 >This occupant, one survivor among three separate 'saucers' that
 >had supposedly crashed in Montana, was able to communicate
 >through pictures, and had shown "great interest in them."
 >Communication with this being was undertaken using various steps
 >used to teach children to read and write, according to Rohrer,
 >who also told of how the saucers are "put together in five
 >sections and come apart easily after the center section is
 >removed."

 >The case is now resolved. To review the details of the
 >investigation, go to -

 >http://home.fuse.net/ufo/rohrer.html


Kudos to Kenny Young for a job well done. It took time money,
persistence; in other words, investigation, rather than
proclamation. Thanks for sharing.

Stan Friedman







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                                Bill Chalker

From: Bill Chalker <bill_c@bigpond.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 23:00:40 +1000
Fwd Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 14:42:17 -0400
Subject: Bill Chalker


For those of you lucky enough to be living or visiting down
under come along and find out about this controversial area of
UFO research.

I will be giving a lecture to the Sydney Space Association
exploring the theme of Science and UFO abductions, Wednesday
evening, 7 - 9.30 pm, Sydney Power House Museum, 500 Harris
Street, Ultimo, Sydney. Entery through main entrance.  Usually a
small donation is requested and all are welcome.

I will be covering science and the UFO controversy, physical
evidence for abduction experiences, and focusing on an update of
the controversial study of a biological sample - a hair -
implicated in the abduction milieu of Sydney builder Peter
Khoury. This biological sample has been subjected to a DNA PCR
forensic investigation which has revealed some unusual results.
Further testing has been completed and the work will be
described.

The possible abduction experience of Nobel Rize winner Kary
Mullis, the discoverer of PCR - polymerase chain reaction - will
also be covered.

Hope to see you there,

Regards, Bill Chalker






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                      UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 5, Number 15

From: John Hayes <webmaster@ufoinfo.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 09:02:04 +0100
Fwd Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 17:09:15 -0400
Subject: UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 5, Number 15


      UFO ROUNDUP
Volume 5, Number 15
April 13, 2000
Editor: Joseph Trainor


mailto:Masinaigan@aol.com

http://ufoinfo.com/roundup/


COUPLE CHASES SAUCER
IN CANADA'S YUKON

      On Thursday, March 30, 2000, at about 5 a.m.,
a couple, with their son sleeping in the back seat,
were driving north on Provincial Highway 2, also known
as the Klondike Highway, when they suddenly
encountered a large hovering saucer.
      They were on their way to Pelly Crossing, a small
town in Canada's Yukon province, about 200 miles
(320 kilometers) north of Whitehorse.
      "The sky was clear with a glow of pre-dawn blue,"
the driver reported.  "We were nearing the end of Little
Fox Lake and came around a sharp right-hand bend
at the foot of a mountain."
      According to Yukon ufologist Martin Jasek, the
couple "could not believe their eyes!  To the right and
about 300 feet (90 meters) away was a 30-to-40-foot
(9-to-12 meter) diameter saucer, hovering about 200
feet (60 meters) off the ground.  They observed it to be
stationary for four or five seconds as they travelled along
the highway, and then it shot across horizontally in
front of their vehicle at an 'incredible speed' and stopped
instantly on the left side of the road."
      "Nothing can move that fast," said one witness.
      Jasek reported that the UFO "remained motionless
for a split-second and then shot off even faster in a
different direction, literally performing a 90-degree turn
and and shooting off behind them (heading south on
Highway 2--J.T.)"
      "The witnesses got a good look at the saucer,"
Jasek reported.  "It was a classic disc shape with a
dome on top.  The disc had two curved windows from
which a beautiful ocean-coloured blue or aqua light
was shining.  The surface of the craft was difficult to
describe.  Some of the words the witnesses used were
'mirror, silver, translucent, shiny , glassy' and 'reflecting
the colour of the sky.'"
      "It was as though the UFO was trying to camouflage
itself against the background sky colour," a witness said.
"It was so advanced.  I'll never be the same after this."
      "One witness said it went right into the side of a
mountain," Jasek reported, "While the other thought it
followed the mountainous skyline."
      As the UFO darted away, the wife cried, "Come
on!  Floor it!  Floor it!" and urged the driver to pursue
the saucer.  Immediately he swung the vehicle's nose
around and began a high-speed chase southbound on
the Klondike Highway.
      "They eventually pulled over 20 minutes later, and
both were shaky," Jasek said, and they made comments
such as these.
      "We were more scared than excited.  I think if it wasn't
so close, it wouldn't have been that scary."
      "It's like we caught it by surprise when we came
around the corner."
      When the UFO moved in front of their vehicle, Jasek
reported, "the car headlights dimmed, and the tape deck
stopped playing.  They both decided to check the time
of the sighting.  However, the woman's battery-powered
analog watch had stopped at 5 a.m., and the man's
digital watch got stuck in 'chrono mode' and couldn't
reset.  A few minutes later, the woman tapped the face
of her watch, and it began working again."
      It took another five minutes for the man's digital watch
to begin working normally again.  The tape deck came
back on approximately 10 minutes after the saucer's
departure.
      "Although the witnesses were in a vehicle, no
sound was heard emanating from the UFO," Jasek added.
  (Many thanks to Martin Jasek for this report.)

WOMAN SPIES HOVERING UFO
IN PEARL, MISSISSIPPI

      On Tuesday, April 4, 2000, at 12:55 a.m., a young
woman from Brandon, Mississippi was returning home,
driving on Interstate Highway I-20.  As she passed
through Pearl, Miss. (population 20,000), just south
of Jackson International Airport, she spotted something
unusual in the sky.
      Mississippi ufologist Bill Williams III reported, "In the
vicinity of Exit 52, she observed a UFO which looked to be
about a couple of hundred feet above treetop height on
the north side of the Interstate."
      "The car in front of her also apparently saw the
UFO, as both that car and she slowed down to about
25 miles per hour (40 kilometers per hour) to better
observe the UFO."
      "She saw a ring of five white lights, each of which
was shaped like a 'comma.' and each of which rotated.
Some were rotating clockwise, and some counter-
clockwise (anti-clockwise in UK--J.T.)  She could not see
the body of any aircraft or other object."
      "However, she described the shape of the ring of lights
as being in the shape of a disk or circle, with a slight
slant.  She observed the lights for a minute or so of time.
Then the lights c vanished or went out."
      "Based on the apparently stationary position of the
lights relative to her direction of travel (east), plus the
lack of any noticeable noise of aircraft engines, she
believes the lights did not appear to belong to any
form of aircraft."  (Many thanks to Bill Williams III for
this report.)

UFOs SEEN THREE TIMES IN
THE PITTSBURGH AREA

       UFOs appeared in western Pennsylvania
three times during the last week of March.
      According to Pennsylvania ufologist Stan Gordon,
on Sunday, March 26, 2000, at 10:45 p.m., "two
witnesses were standing outside" in Ross Township,
a suburb of Pittsburgh, Pa. "when one of them
noticed an odd light coming across the sky at high
altitude.  The object, which was shaped like a triangle,
'had to be huge,' according to one of the observers,
since it was very high up but could clearly be seen,
as it blacked out a portion of the clear sky as it moved.
The triangular shape was defined by a number of
greyish-white lights that were non-blinking.  The object
moved fast across the sky," the witnesses reported,
"and was observed for around 10 seconds.  No sound
was heard as the object passed overhead."
      On Thursday, March 30, 2000, at 8:23 p.m., a
resident of the Shadyside section of Pittsburgh, Pa.
"reported seeing a bright white light in the sky.  The
object appeared to be perfectly circular or semi-
circular in shape and appeared stationary.  Suddenly,
the light moved straight up into the sky and 'winked out.'
The sighting lasted only 5 to 10 seconds."
      Later the same evening, at 10:30 p.m., two people
spotted a UFO in nearby Gans, Pa.  "Two reports
were received of a bright light over the Chestnut Bridge,
visible from Gans, Pa."  The witnesses "described a bright
white light, stationary, very close to or possibly on the
ground near the top of the ridge.  One witness has an
interest in astronomy and described it as much brighter
than the planet Venus.  The light was present for about
ten minutes and then simply vanished."
      The Gans case is being investigated by Fayette
County ufologist James Brown.  (Many thanks to Stan
Gordon for these reports.)

TWO LUMINOUS GREEN UFOs
SEEN OVER ARLINGTON, TEXAS

      On Thursday, April 6, 2000, at 9:35 p.m., ufologist
Mike Harman of Arlington, Texas (population 27,000)
stepped out into his backyard "to observe the stars for
a while before going to bed.  I was standing facing south
and looking at Orion when something caught my eye
up over our house."
      "Looking almost directly straight up and just slightly
south, I observed a bright green light.  The green was
the green of a traffic light.  The size was almost the
same size as Venus in the night sky.  The green object
was traveling at a very high rate of speed.  What looked
like about four times the speed of a (jet) aircraft flying over
the same area (About 2,000 miles per hour or 3,200
kilometers per hour--J.T.)  The object took about 12 seconds
to go from almost straight up and about 10 degrees south
to completely out of sight over some trees down the street,"
to the north.
      "When I first saw the green light, I noticed that there was
another object just north of the first one, also green in color,
and traveling in the same direction and speed."
      "Then I grabbed my binoculars to try to get a better look
at the objects.  When I watched the leading object through
the binoculars, I noticed that I could see clearly behind the
object and that there was no body or wings visible.  The
clouds were illuminated by the city lights (from nearby
Dallas and Forth Worth--J.T.) which made it a rather
brightly-lit evening.  I could clearly see the clouds
contrasted against the object as it moved under them.
The clouds were patchy and scattered and spread
evenly across the sky except to the north, where they
were denser.  You could also see many stars
between the clouds."
      "Early in my observation, when I first spotted the
leading object through the binoculars, I noticed an
orange, much smaller light that seemed to be darting
very rapidly back and forth going past the green
object in each direction, not a tight zigzag but rather
an exaggerated movement and quite rapid."
      "I could see the green object at the same time as
the orange one, and I could tell that it was moving past
the green one in a rapid motion.  There were no sparks.
The orange light illuminated with light the green object as
it traversed the sky."
      "The whole episode caught me completely by surprise,
as I had gone outside to do some stargazing, not UFO
gazing.  I had not planned on doing anything strange
that night.  It left me spooked and a little excited.
Definitely High Strangeness."
      Arlington is on Interstate Highway I-30 about
20 miles (32 kilometers) east West of Dallas.
(Many thanks to Mike Harman for this report.)

LUMINOUS ORANGE UFO
SIGHTED NEAR MELBOURNE

      Another luminous orange-sphere UFO was
sighted in Australia last week.
     On Friday, April 8, 2000, at 11:10 p.m., Steven S.
was outdoors in his hometown of McKinnon, Victoria,
Australia, near the state capital of Melbourne, when
he spotted a glowing object approaching from the
southeast.
      "I was standing in my driveway when a plane
passed overhead from the northwest going south,"
Steve reported.  "As it passed, I noticed a pulsating
orange-red light coming from the southeast beneath
the plane that had just passed.  The light was very
bright and moved slowly upwards into the sky.,
moving off to the southeast.  When it appeared to
me, it moved quite slowly and at an upwards 45 degree
angle.  I watched it until it finally faded high in the
southeastern sky."
      "This is the first time I have ever seen anything like
this, but I am sure that what I saw was not a plane..
The way it moved and the way it changed direction...
well, it was not a plane."  (Email Form Report)

SLOW-MOVING YELLOW UFO
SPOTTED NEAR NEW DELHI

      On Friday, April 8, 2000, at 11:55 p.m., a luminous
yellow-orange UFO slowly approached the Indira
Gandhi International Airport and the Palam Regional
Airport on the outskirts of New Delhi, the capital of
India.
      According to eyewitness Anupam K., "The UFO
approached from the northeast.  It had an irregular
motion, slowly moving across the sky.  It had a
yellow-orangish glow."
      A crowd of people watched the UFO slow to a halt
near the air cargo terminals at Gandhi Airport.
      "The UFO was flying rather high and there was
no sound," Anupam reported.  "It came to a still
position after a while, then moved quickly to the left
and descended a little.  Stood still for a while and
moved quickly towards the right.  It changed its tilt,
and then it disappeared..  All the while, its glowing
pattern suggested a wobbly motion."
      Anupam described it as a cigar shape.  "It was
elongated with a glow in three parts.  There were two
dark regions between the three glowing regions.
There was a flashing effect suggesting a spinning
motion.  It was as high as a high-flying aircraft
(10,000 meters or 33,000 feet--J.T.), but its motion
was quite different, a little wobbly or flickering."
      "Surprisingly, there was no report in the TV or
radio or in the newspapers."  (Email Form Report)

TWO MORE UFO SIGHTINGS
IN PUERTO RICO

      On Saturday, March 25, 2000, at 5:50 p.m.,
two high-flying UFOs were seen over San Juan, the
capital of Puerto Rico.
      "The objects were seen by several dozen
eyewitnesses as they were traveling in opposite
directions," reported Scott Corrales, author of
Chupacabras and Other Mysteries and Forbidden
Mexico.  "One was traveling west at an approximate
heading of 295 degrees magnetic.  The other was
traveling east at a heading for 115 degrees magnetic."
      "At least one of the eyewitnesses, Celestino
'Junior' Ortiz, popular radio announcer on (radio
station) Alpha Rock 105.7 FM, was able to capture
both objects on his camcorder."
      "As he was leaving his house, Ortiz, his wife and son,
and friends spotted the mysterious object heading west
at a 20-degree angle.  He reached for his camcorder and
began filming.  The objects initially looked like comets
or meteors entering the atmosphere.  The object traveling
east passed high above the eyewitnesses, said the
members of his family.  No sound of jet engines or sonic
boom was heard as it flew by."
      In early March 2000, Wally Durand Urbino of the
Puerto Rican UFO Research Group reported a UFO
sighting in the city of Isabella, P.R.  "Luminous balls
were seen.  The witnesses reported that the luminous
spheres departed in the direction of the mountains,
heading north, and then veered towards the east,
heading out over the Atlantic Ocean, becoming lost
in the sea mist."  (Muchas gracias a Scott Corrales
y Lucy Guzman para estas historias.)
(Editor's Comment: I guess you can add the March 2000
Isabella sighting to the lore of the Bermuda Triangle.)

NEW WORLD ORDER TROOPS
GO ON CARIBBEAN EXERCISE

      Just when you thought Operation Abacus was
history, a whole new round of New World Order
military training exercises have cropped up.
      A planned helicopter insertion exercise slated
for Phoenix, Arizona, USA was cancelled at the
last minute at the end of March.
      "Members of an elite Marine expeditionary unit in
full battle gear, including MP-5 submachine guns,
M-16A1 assault riffles and stun grenades were about
  to board (H-60) Blackhawk helicopters on (Thursday)
  March 23 for a mock hostage rescue training exercise
in downtown Phoenix, Ariz."
      "Meanwhile, the homeless and their advocates
prepared for the Marine onslaught.  Bag ladies readied
their shopping carts to lead a counterattack.  Men
crouched behind Dumpsters with piles of empty
wine bottles they planned to throw at the Marines."
      "The plan was to have elite units of the 13th Marine
Expeditionary Force, stationed at Camp Pendleton in
(southern) California, airlifted by helicopters to the
intersection of Ninth Avenue and Madison Street in
downtown Phoenix.  The Marines would rappel down and
engage in a mock rescue of hostages.  The training
exercise also called for the Marines to evacuate civilians
and deliver humanitarian aid."
      "In Phoenix, advocates for the homeless objected
to the Marine training exercise because they
felt it would disturb the homeless in the downtown
section of the city.  An estimated 25 percent of the
homeless are military veterans."
      "When the Marines decided to go ahead with the
exercise, Phoenix Chief of Police Harold Hurtt and
City Manager Frank Fairbanks asked the Pentagon to
call off the operation,"  whereupon the U.S. Marine
Corps cancelled the planned exercise.
      "'I don't think anyone thought this through the
initial impact,' Fairbanks said."  (See The Spotlight
for April 10, 2000, "Marine Urban Training Cancelled
Due to Uproar," page 6.)
      One training exercise that did take place as
scheduled was Operation Tradewinds, which opened
at Camp Santiago in the Salinas Test Area of Puerto
Rico, about 22 miles (35 kilometers) south of San Juan.
      The exercise began on Monday, March 27, 2000
and was hosted by the U.S. Army Southern Command.
The exercise commander, Col. Frank Winger, reportedly
described it as "a training exercise of assistance and
maintenance of order during a disaster."
      Five hundred troops from the small Caribbean
nations of Antigua, Dominica, Granada, St. Kitts and
Nevis, St. Lucia, St. Vincent, the Grenadines, the
Bahamas, Belize, Guyana, Jamaica, Trinidad and
Tobago, plus the USA and the UK participated in the
eight-day training exercise, which was also sponsored
by CARICOM, the regional Caribbean defense system
(Known in Spnish as Sustema de Seguridad Regional
y la Comunidad Caribeza or SSRCC--J.T.)
      During the week, the officers reportedly attended
seminars dealing with disaster relief, the Echelon
intelligence gathering system, HAARP and joint
operations with NATO forces.
      In related exercises, paratroopers from the
Dutch Antilles and Haiti conducted airborne landings
on the islands of St. Lucia and Jamaica.
      Capt. Steven Jones of Special Operations, U.S.
Army Southern Command reportedly "said many of the
participants were taking an opportunity to receive
training for cases of disaster such as hurricanes,
floods and volcanic eruptions or techniques of control
of populations during periods of natural disaster."
      Capt. Jones reportedly "conceded that each of the
trainees was using live ammunition but that they were
only used with small arms such as (M-16) rifles and
(M-60) machine guns."
      The exercise concluded on Tuesday, April 4, 2000.
Next up for CARICOM forces is a training exercise on
the island of Trinidad and Tobago.  (Muchas gracias
a Luzy Guzman para la historia de Camp Santiago.)
(Editor's Comment:  I hope all of our readers in
Port-of-Spain have their helmet and flak jacket handy.
Buy now and avoid the rush.)

FUN UFO WEBSITES:
      There's a new UFO magazine being published in
Brazil.  It's called Revista Ufologica, and you readers
can get a sneak preview by checking out this URL:
http://www.revistaufologica.com.br

from the UFO Files...

1952: A UFO OVER MICHIGAN

      Here's an entry from Project Blue Book, one of the
most detailed UFO sightings of the 1950s.
      "On Sunday night, April 27 (1952), my wife, two
children and myself were proceeding home.  My wife
and I both spotted a brilliant white object coming towards
us out of the sky from the northeast.  It descended so
fast that by the time my wife could realize and state that
it was a flying saucer, it had descended to its minimum
height of a transport plane in flight."
      "It stopped abruptly and rocked slightly, similar to a
rowboat in choppy water.  It then settled at an approximate
thirty-degree angle and the brilliant whiteness diminished
as to what appeared to be window lights."
      "It sat in this exact position and spot for what was
approximately three or four minutes, making it very easy
for us to judge its size, shape, etc.  We estimated it to be
about two miles north of us, and three thousand feet high.
The angle at which it rested made it very easy for us to
estimate its thickness and diameter.  It appeared to have
two tiers of windows, each about ten feet high, which
resembled looking into the playing section of a mouth
organ (harmonica--J.T.)  The windows were all around
the entire diameter, making visible the round flatness.
We estimate conservatively that the diameter of the ship
was at least two hundred feet (60 meters)."
      "After what seemed to me that they were getting
their bearings, they started drifting northwest towards the
city of Pontiac (Michigan), about one hundred miles per
hour (160 kilometers per hour) but they stopped two or
three times during the time of observation."
      "At no time did it make a noise."
      ""Immediately, I realized that I should have witnesses
to this phenomenon, so I speeded west on Fifteen Mile
Road to a drive-in restaurant about a mile away.  I ran in
and asked some young men if they would come out and
witness my experience.  After persuasion, two of them
went out and were amazed, causing others to follow."
      "By this time it had drifted at least five miles northwest.
At this point I called the Birmingham (Michigan) police
and asked them to alarm all the airfields in this direction
which they said they would do."
      ""I returned to my car and continued to follow it,
driving west on Fifteen Mile Road.  During the next five
minutes, the lights in the saucer went off and on three
times.  The fourth time, the lights changed from white to
a brilliant yellow-orange, and by this time we had reached
the Grand Trunk Railroad station, a half-mile from
Birmingham.  Thinking this experience would make a good
newspaper story, I stopped at the railroad station and
called the Detroit Times, telling them my story thus far."
      "After that, I again called the Birmingham police and
asked them if they had reported the incident as yet.
They said they were thinking about it, so I became
provoked and said I would call (the U.S. Air Force base
at) Selfridge Field myself., which I did.  If anyone ever got
the 'brush,' I sure did..."
      "During my telephone conversation, my wife had
convinced the station attendant and Railroad Express
(a forerunner of FedEx--J.T.) truck driver to observe the
spectacle.  I secured the truck driver's name and then
proceeded west on Fifteen Mile Road and out about
seven miles due west, following the saucer as it
vanished from my vision over treetops in the general
direction of Flint (Michigan) at 11:15 p.m."
      "I contacted the Detroit Times on Tuesday a.m.
gave them my complete story.  Their reporter phoned
Selfridge Field and Radar Division and they both told
him that it was impossible for anything to be in the air
at that time because nothing was picked up by radar,
so naturally, the Times dropped the story."  (See the
book The Hynek UFO Report by Dr. J. Allen Hynek,
Dell Books, New York, N>Y>, 1977, pages 70 to 72.)

Today's Quote: "I shall keep my lips sealed and my
eyes in the boat and put my weight on the oar to any
duty assigned."  Admiral James O. Richardson, 1941

      Join us next week for more UFO and paranormal
news from around the planet Earth, brought to you by
"the paper that goes home--UFO Roundup."  See you
in seven days.

UFO ROUNDUP: Copyright 2000 by Masinaigan
Productions, all rights reserved.  Readers may post
news items from UFO Roundup on their websites or
in newsgroups provided that they credit the newsletter
and its editor by name and list the date of issue in
which the item first appeared.
John Hayes

ufoinfo@ukgateway.net
webmaster@ufoinfo.com

UFOINFO:- http://ufoinfo.com

Official Archives for UFO Roundup, UK UFO Network Bulletin,
AUFORN Australian UFO Reports and Experiences, UFO + PSI
Magazine plus archives of Filer's Files.







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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 >
   Apr > Apr 13

               Re: Investigation of 1952 'Talk Startles Crowd'

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 15:21:32 -0400 (EDT)
Fwd Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 17:11:25 -0400
Subject: Re: Investigation of 1952 'Talk Startles Crowd'


 >Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 23:38:31 -0400
 >From: Kenny Young <ufo@fuse.net>
 >Subject: Investigation of 1952 'Talk Startles Crowd' Issue
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >An investigation into the 1952 "Talk Startles Crowd" newspaper
 >article involving Joseph Rohrer of Pikes Peak Broadcasting
 >Company has concluded. Rohrer alleged that a UFO occupant had
 >been held in an incubator in California.

 >This occupant, one survivor among three separate 'saucers' that
 >had supposedly crashed in Montana, was able to communicate
 >through pictures, and had shown "great interest in them."
 >Communication with this being was undertaken using various steps
 >used to teach children to read and write, according to Rohrer,
 >who also told of how the saucers are "put together in five
 >sections and come apart easily after the center section is
 >removed."

 >The case is now resolved. To review the details of the
 >investigation, go to -

 >http://home.fuse.net/ufo/rohrer.html


It gives me good feelings to know that there are still some
folks around who can do research and not have research do them.

At last I can say, "Finally, the truth revealed about good
research... no mirrors, no proclamations, no bait and swish."

Good job, sir.

Jim Mortellaro,
I ain't no Gesundt






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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 >
   Apr > Apr 13

                    Re: TMP News: Weekly Briefing 4.12.00

From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@yorku.ca>
Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 17:39:07 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time)
Fwd Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 22:37:11 -0400
Subject: Re: TMP News: Weekly Briefing 4.12.00


 >Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 19:58:31 -0700
 >From: Paul Anderson <psa@direct.ca>
 >Subject: TMP News: Weekly Briefing 4.12.00
 >To: psa@direct.ca

<snip>

 >WEEKLY BRIEFING
 >4.12.00

 >The William Thomas chemtrail presentation on April 8 was a great
 >success, with a near-capacity audience in the Space Centre
 >auditorium. A good step forward in bringing more attention to
 >this issue among the public. Some excellent new video was shown,
 >including recent footage from California showing a massing of
 >many 'chemtrails' in parallel rows spanning the whole sky like a
 >floating furrowed field. Normal air traffic? Not likely. This is

What is the issue that must be brought to the public's
attention?

Depending on the strength and direction of the upper winds and
what the temperature and humidity conditions are at the time the
contrails or 'chemtrails' are observed (some vanish immediately
after they are formed while others can persist for very long
periods of time), floating parallel rows of contrails are not
rare sights to someone living near a busy high altitude flight
lane.

If the upper winds are blowing 90 degrees or so to the direction
of flight, as each consecutive plane follows the same path in
the sky which the plane before it took, it too will produce a
contrail which will be shifted parallel to the one before it.

Normal air traffic?  Yes, (especially for California where there
are many heavy air traffic high altitude flight lanes so one or
more will be about 90 degrees to the direction of the upper
winds).

 >what is being reported, by eyewitnesses in the thousands now,
 >across the US, Canada and parts of Europe. Evidence for a link
 >between this activity and a large-scale attempt at preventing or
 >slowing global warming was presented, as well as possible

The amount of air traffic is greatest in these regions and the
population densities are large so one should be surprised only
if there were few eyewitnesses.

With the ever increasing air traffic, one study suggests that
the additional cloud cover that will be produced will reduce
average global temperatures (maybe a good thing considering the
amounts greenhouse gases we add to our atmosphere are thought to
be slowly increasing average global temperatures).

 >biowarfare/ opulation control projects being conducted, by the
 >US Air Force and possibly other agencies. The resulting effect,

Speaking to government atmospheric scientists here in Toronto
where I once worked, I was told how thrilled some researchers
were at the opportunities to fly military jets as part of their
cloud seeding studies in attempts to produce rain over parched
regions.

Much more infrequently were the very localized chemical
releases, such as barium, in the upper atmosphere or near space
for purely scientific purposes.  These releases were always
announced in advance.

There was nothing sinister I could see in any of these
activities.

 >whether incidental or intentional, is that many, many people are
 >apparently being made sick (and some dying) in the process. Is
 >the military (once again) playing god? It would appear so. Mr.

Since the aircraft which allegedly produce these chemtrails have
to land at some airport somewhere, military or public, and must
be loaded with the nasty chemicals or biological agents thought
to be released in the air over our heads, I have found no
evidence that this is actual taking place here.  I was told by a
friend at a miltary base that this activity would be very
unlikely since someone would have suspected something wrong a
long time ago and notified the appropriate authorities or even
the press.

 >Thomas was well received by those attending, and will certainly
 >be back in the near future to do an update. In response to
 >requests, yes the lecture was taped, by two film crews, one for
 >local TV and one for possible commercial availability.
 >Arrangements are still being made with Mr. Thomas, and TMP News
 >will advise when and if copies become available. Mr. Thomas is
 >also working on his own chemtrail video documentary, to be
 >available in the near future. Many thanks to UFO*BC for their
 >assistance in making this presentation possible.

Unlike the use of crop dusting planes, high altitude chemical or
biological releases would be a very inefficient way of doing the
intended job.  Since secrecy would be paramount for such a large
scale undertaking, it would certainly not be done during
daylight hours but under the cloak of darkness of the night sky.
Although one friend reported what seemed to her to be a
chemtrail crossing the face of the Moon, no fellow amateur
astronomers have reported such contrails or even unusual
aircraft activity at night.

Also, many chemicals and biological agents photodissociate in
bright sunlight or become ineffective in the frigid high
altitude atmosphere, so it is further unlikely that anyone would
even bother with a fleet of airplanes and dozens of tanker
trucks when it is much easier and simpler for them to make one
time visits to the water purification plants of each town or
city, for example, to achieve the desired results.

How this whole issue of chemtrails is even remotely associated
with the UFO phenomena escapes me.  Never the less, I for one
would be very interested in hearing new evidence (other than
just more reported sightings of alleged chemtrails) to suggest
that something detrimental to our health (or even to protect it)
is going on.

Even if people like William Thomas's intentions are good, unless
they have much better evidence, they will only make money and
contribute to public paranoia by producing such 'documentaries'.

Nick Balaskas








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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 >
   Apr > Apr 13

                            Re: NASA Flying Disk

From: Ron Cecchini <Ron.Cecchini@GD-CS.COM>
Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 19:12:25 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 22:40:40 -0400
Subject: Re: NASA Flying Disk


 >Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 14:57:57 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time)
 >From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@yorku.ca>
 >Subject: Re: NASA Flying Disk
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >Canadians frequently travel to the U.S. during our cold winters
 >in search of sun and warm weather. Could the Roswell UFO have
 >been one of own snowbirds which was brought down or was it an
 >E.T. craft which may have been brought to Canada to be reverse
 >engineered by the same world class aerospace scientists and
 >engineers who built the AVRO Arrow and also helped the U.S. to
 >achieve another goal - of landing men on another world.

Can't be.

...they would've found a 6-pack of Molson & a copy of
"Strange Brew" in the wreckage...

Oh wait, the movie came much after '47.

Ok, you're right.  Roswell could've been Canadians.
(a bunch of "aliens" if I've seen any...)

ron
(whose Canadian astrophysicist friends all move here
  & take jobs as web geeks...)









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   Apr > Apr 13

               Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947

From: Roger Prokic <rprokic@earthlink.net>
Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 18:01:46 -0600
Fwd Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 22:47:14 -0400
Subject: Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947


 >Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 09:07:38 -0400 (EDT)
 >From: Tom Carey <TCarey1947@aol.com>
 >Subject: Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >>Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 11:34:32 -0700
 >>From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@rocler.qc.ca>
 >>Subject: Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>>Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2000 11:50:23 -0800
 >>>From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman@psln.com>
 >>>Subject: Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>>>Date: Sat, 08 Apr 2000 17:46:40 -0400
 >>>>From: Steven W. Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
 >>>>Subject: Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947
 >>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>>>If I had a witness contact me with information that could lead
 >>>>to breakthrough in relation to the Roswell mystery, I would do
 >>>>my best to make sure that his story was investigated by one of
 >>>>the specialists in the field and documented carefully so that it
 >>>>wouldn't become twisted by the re-telling and lost to future
 >>>>generations.

 > <snip>

 >>>I've encouraged the MP to
 >>>identify himself. I have never met him. I do not know his name,
 >>>only his email address. He's convinced me that he is who he says
 >>>he is. I know how limited his testimony is unless he's able to
 >>>convince you and others, too.

 ><snip>

 >>Hello Ed,

 >>Can we have the MP's email address or do you have exclusive
 >>rights on this matter?

 >>Before you answer, I will bet the following:

 >>1. You will not reveal this information.

 >>2. If you do, the email address will be hotmail, i.e. impossible
 >> to trace the owner.

 >>3. If you don't, you'll have no good reason to do so.

 >>I can smell the stench of all of this MP affair. How is it you
 >>can't?

 >>Serge Salvaille

 >Dear Serge:

 >You are correct in all of your questions and points. Early on in
 >this MP saga, I contacted Ed since I have a copy of the 1947
 >RAAF yearbook. I offered, as a starting point for verifying the
 >story, to look up the source's name with a promise not to
 >contact him or do anything further without Ed's permission.

 >After accusing me of not showing due respect, Ed, of course,
 >would not provide the name, saying instead that he passed along
 >my request to his source for a response which, of course, I am
 >still awaiting.

 >This story is one of two things: (1) an April Fool's joke [the
 >story, I believe, first made its appearance on this list on
 >April 1st], or (2) an attempt by supporters to breathe life back
 >into the Santilli hoax [e.g., six-fingered aliens, and the
 >like]. Nothing more. Nothing less.

Agreed. I think Ed should be banned from the list!


Roger Prokic
Principal RF Systems Engineer
Ball Aerospace & Technologies Corp.
Boulder, Colorado USA
-=[ sent from a Palm IIIxe computer & Multimail Pro v3.1C ]=-







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   Apr > Apr 14

                            Re: NASA Flying Disk

From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net>
Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 22:59:30 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 08:54:32 -0400
Subject: Re:  NASA Flying Disk


 >From: Ron Cecchini
 >Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 19:12:25 -0400
 >Fwd Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 22:40:40 -0400
 >Subject: Re: NASA Flying Disk

 >>Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 14:57:57 -0400 (Eastern
 >Daylight Time)
 >>From: Nick Balaskas
 >>Subject: Re: NASA Flying Disk
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto

 >>Canadians frequently travel to the U.S. during our cold winters
 >>in search of sun and warm weather. Could the Roswell UFO have
 >>been one of own snowbirds which was brought down or was it an
 >>E.T. craft which may have been brought to Canada to be reverse
 >>engineered by the same world class aerospace scientists and
 >>engineers who built the AVRO Arrow and also helped the U.S. to
 >>achieve another goal - of landing men on another world.

 >Can't be.

 >...they would've found a 6-pack of Molson & a copy of
 >"Strange Brew" in the wreckage...

Yeah. That's the difference between the US and Canadian
Aerospace programs. When we launch something we say, "3,2,1
Blast off!"

Up north they just say,"Take off, eh?" ;)

Roger







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               Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947

From: William Sawers <wsawers@ihug.co.nz>
Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 17:13:49 +1200
Fwd Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 09:02:22 -0400
Subject: Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947


 >Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 18:01:46 -0600
 >From: Roger Prokic <rprokic@earthlink.net>
 >Subject: Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >>Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 09:07:38 -0400 (EDT)
 >>From: Tom Carey <TCarey1947@aol.com>
 >>Subject: Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947
 >>To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >>>Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 11:34:32 -0700
 >>>From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@rocler.qc.ca>
 >>>Subject: Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>>>Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2000 11:50:23 -0800
 >>>>From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman@psln.com>
 >>>>Subject: Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947
 >>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>>>>Date: Sat, 08 Apr 2000 17:46:40 -0400
 >>>>>From: Steven W. Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
 >>>>>Subject: Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947
 >>>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>>>>If I had a witness contact me with information that could lead
 >>>>>to breakthrough in relation to the Roswell mystery, I would do
 >>>>>my best to make sure that his story was investigated by one of
 >>>>>the specialists in the field and documented carefully so that it
 >>>>>wouldn't become twisted by the re-telling and lost to future
 >>>>>generations.

<snip>

 >>After accusing me of not showing due respect, Ed, of course,
 >>would not provide the name, saying instead that he passed along
 >>my request to his source for a response which, of course, I am
 >>still awaiting.

 >>This story is one of two things: (1) an April Fool's joke [the
 >>story, I believe, first made its appearance on this list on
 >>April 1st], or (2) an attempt by supporters to breathe life back
 >>into the Santilli hoax [e.g., six-fingered aliens, and the
 >>like]. Nothing more. Nothing less.

 >Agreed. I think Ed should be banned from the list!

 >Roger Prokic

Good God... a little drastic don't you think Roger. If we ban
everyone that disagrees with us, there won't be much of a list
left.

All I can see is that Ed passionately believes in what he says.
There are _many_ that will disagree Roger,  but whats the
Internet for if not to bounce ideas around and state your
personal views. One especially great things Errol has insisted
on is a degree of respect and no flaming. By banning Ed what do
you think that would accomplish other than a censorship of sorts
making people hesitant to air their views.

If Ed was spouting rubbish about certain aliens that he alone
had contact with and refused to give us the "good-news" well,
then you may have a case. From what I've seen Ed is just the
same as many others on the list with his own slant on our chosen
subject. Lets not go overboard here eh?

Even if it does turn out to be an April Fools trick, I'm of the
opinion Ed has been sucked into it, rather than the instigator.

Maybe I'm wrong and the list is less forgiving than I thought,
please put me right if this is so!

Regards to All and _no_ offence meant

William








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   Apr > Apr 14

               Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 03:36:04 -0400 (EDT)
Fwd Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 09:07:44 -0400
Subject: Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947


 >Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 18:01:46 -0600
 >From: Roger Prokic <rprokic@earthlink.net>
 >Subject: Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >Agreed. I think Ed should be banned from the list!

Dear Roger Prokic, Errol, Listers and everyone else;

Absolutely, kick the bastard off the list. In fact, start fresh
with a brand new list. I shall endeavor to volunteer the rules
by which EBK will use for this new list.

1) No one shall be a list member without permission from the
High Poobah Updates Council of Elderberries. Or, the High
Poobah UpDates Council of Dingleberries is OK too. I use both
in my product.

2) No one shall be a list member who has not published at least
one book with the words, "Finally, the Truth Reviled" in the
title. "Revealed may also be acceptable.

3) No one shall be a lister unless whatever he has to say
agrees with the prevailing theories of the Poobahs.

4) Roger Prokic shall be the Banner Master. He will be given a
special uniform, whip, badge and a nug. (I'm dyslexic).

5) Gesundt will be the first Bannee. Prokic shall do the
honors. Like Bruno, I wish to be burned alive. No choking the
life out me first. I wanna feel the pain. Hey Roge, need a
match?

I'll think of some more rules but later. It's 4AM and I tire
easily. Gesundt is gonna be 57 on Monday.


J. Jaime, Poobah Wannabee

PS: I wish to be inebriated on Gripple before going to the
stake. It'll be quicker that way.








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   Apr > Apr 14

                        Time-Travel Theory Gets Boost

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>
Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 09:16:44 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 09:16:44 -0400
Subject: Time-Travel Theory Gets Boost




 From UFO UpDates - Toronto

Source: Discovery.com

http://www.discovery.com/news/briefs/20000413/space_wormhole.html


Time-Travel Theory Gets Boost

By Discovery.com News


April 13, 2000 -- Star Trek fans and other visionaries dreaming
about the possibility of intergalactic "wormholes" may be
vindicated by a new study in the current issue of New Scientist.

The hypothetical space-time tunnels, which would allow people to
travel vast interstellar distances in short periods of time, may
indeed exist. This is the conclusion of a new set of
calculations based on Einstein's general theory of relativity.

The possibility of universal shortcuts through space was first
proposed in 1915 by German theorist Ludwig Flamm, who found
hints of their existence in Einstein's equations.

While quantum theory suggests that wormholes may exist on an
extremely tiny, subatomic scale, most experts suspect that large
wormholes are physically impossible. Their existence would lead
to a perplexing array of contradictions. For instance, they
would make it possible for a person to go back in time and
prevent their own birth by accidentally killing their parents.

But now, a Russian scientist has proposed a new kind of wormhole
that would be large enough and stable enough for extended
space-time travel. According to Sergei Krasnikov, a relativity
expert at the Pulkovo Observatory in St. Petersburg, one of the
biggest arguments against wormholes is that they would need to
be filled with a large enough supply of some sort of material
that pushes the walls apart gravitationally to keep them open
and functional, New Scientist reports.

Theory suggests that such matter can be formed on its own due to
fluctuations in space and time, and in some cases can actually
be created by the wormhole itself. But many have doubted whether
it could be made in sufficient quantities to keep a large
wormhole open for significant periods of time.

Krasnikov�s equations may change all this. "This new wormhole,
like every other, needs matter for it to form, and like some
others can produce it by itself," he tells New Scientist.
"What's new is that this wormhole actually generates enough to
make it arbitrarily large."

Kraskinov admits that there is no way to experimentally test
whether the validity of his scenario, and other theorists
remained cautious.

"My feeling is that the matter is still open," Paul Davies of
Imperial College, London, tells New Scientist.





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   Apr > Apr 14

                    Re: TMP News: Weekly Briefing 4.12.00

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 09:12:25 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 15:45:14 -0400
Subject: Re: TMP News: Weekly Briefing 4.12.00


 >Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 17:39:07 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time)
 >From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@yorku.ca>
 >Subject: Re: TMP News: Weekly Briefing 4.12.00
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 19:58:31 -0700
 >>From: Paul Anderson <psa@direct.ca>
 >>Subject: TMP News: Weekly Briefing 4.12.00
 >>To: psa@direct.ca


Nick,

 >>whether incidental or intentional, is that many, many people are
 >>apparently being made sick (and some dying) in the process. Is
 >>the military (once again) playing god? It would appear so.

 >Since the aircraft which allegedly produce these chemtrails have
 >to land at some airport somewhere, military or public, and must
 >be loaded with the nasty chemicals or biological agents thought
 >to be released in the air over our heads, I have found no
 >evidence that this is actual taking place here.  I was told by a
 >friend at a miltary base that this activity would be very
 >unlikely since someone would have suspected something wrong a
 >long time ago and notified the appropriate authorities or even
 >the press.

But you don't understand.  The press is part of the conspiracy!
So are the "appropriate authorities."  Gee, you sure are naive.

Seriously: Your eminently sensible, informed observations about
this latest manifestation of anti-gummint looney-tunery are only
going to get you accused of being an agent of the cover-up.
Doing battle with conspiracy cranks is like taking on a tarbaby.

Jerry Clark








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   Apr > Apr 14

               Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947

From: neil@adm1.ph.man.ac.uk
Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 15:33:26 +0100
Fwd Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 15:47:55 -0400
Subject: Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947


 >Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 18:01:46 -0600
 >From: Roger Prokic <rprokic@earthlink.net>
 >Subject: Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

<snip>

 >>This story is one of two things: (1) an April Fool's joke [the
 >>story, I believe, first made its appearance on this list on
 >>April 1st], or (2) an attempt by supporters to breathe life back
 >>into the Santilli hoax [e.g., six-fingered aliens, and the
 >>like]. Nothing more. Nothing less.

 >Agreed. I think Ed should be banned from the list!



_What!_???

Why don't you bring along the stake, brushwood and matches
too!?.

I thought this list was for the open and free exchange of UFO
related matters and as long as the content of the material was
resonably on topic and not offensive to delicate eyes, it was
tolerated by Errol???.

If _you_ have a problem with content use the delete key.



Neil.

--
*        *         *         *         *         *         *         *
Neil Morris.       /101101101 Virtual Bumper Stickers Inc 10110101010\
Dept of Physics.   1                                                 1
Univ of Manchester 0                                                 0
Schuster Labs.     1  Computer Programmers DO IT with BITS of BYTES  1
Brunswick St.      0                                                 0
Manchester.        1                                                 1
UK.                \0101010110010110110010110101101011011110101011010/
G8KOQ


              E-mail: neil@adm1.ph.man.ac.uk

Roswell and Alien Autopsy Archive->http://adm2.ph.man.ac.uk/
Dave Willetts Home Page->  http://adm2.ph.man.ac.uk/dave_willetts/
Mike Sterling Home Page->  http://adm2.ph.man.ac.uk/mike-s/
Tim Morgan Home Page   ->  http://adm2.ph.man.ac.uk/tim-m/

*        *         *         *         *         *         *         *







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               Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947

From: Kelly Peterborough <kellymcg@netcom.ca>
Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 10:59:06 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 15:57:04 -0400
Subject: Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947


Dear Errol,

I find the recent talk of banning Ed from UFO UpDates disturing.
Let me tell you why. I have been a long-time (about four-years)
subscriber to UFO UpDates and two other lists - the Fortean List
and CTRL (Conspiracy Theory Research List). Now, Errol, your
list is so clean it squeaks! Your rule about no flamming works
beautifully, because you personally monitor every message and
won't allow it.

The CTRL list, while it can be interesting, also contains a lot
of drivel and flamming and off topic posts, and ocassionally
someone is kicked off - but only after horrendous abuse and
warnings. The Forteana list is the friendliest, as there are no
rules and it seems to be self-policing. At Forteana, only two
people have been kicked off, one because he was a troll and told
appalling "true" stories of child pornography, of which he was
involved with - so he was reported by many members to his ISP.
The other was kicked off for causing a perceived long-term
online list war with another member.

In any event, it is my opinion that Ed has done nothing to
justify being banned from your list. He believes in what he
writes about, and writes about it passionately. What is wrong
with that? It seems to me, that in ufology that there is little
proof of anything to date, just lots of subjective
interpretations of events and lots of interesting theories.

Why not let Ed stay and see how his story plays out? Over time
his MP story will either be proved or disproved - but if he is
kicked off, no one here will know the final outcome.

I can see, perhaps, asking him to refrain from speaking about
the MP further until he offers more 'proof' of the MPs
existence, but to date what has he done to justify removal from
the list?

I find that an interesting list is made of many different people
with many different points of view. A homogenous Old Boys' Club
holds little interest to me.

Kelly







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               Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947

From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman@psln.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 07:12:52 -0800
Fwd Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 16:00:27 -0400
Subject: Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947


 >Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 18:01:46 -0600
 >From: Roger Prokic <rprokic@earthlink.net>
 >Subject: Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >I think Ed should be banned from the list!

Roger and list,

My submissions to this list concerning the MP's story, the AA or
any other topic I've written about are not hoaxes or fakes or
untruthful in any way. I may have been wrong on occasion but who
hasn't. I can assure all that any mistakes I make are not
intentional.

I've been relating the true facts of this matter to the updates
list and will continue to do so as long as Errol gives me the
space.

Ed






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               Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947

From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net>
Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 12:43:09 -0500
Fwd Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 16:33:16 -0400
Subject: Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947


 >Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947

 >From: William Sawers
 >Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 17:13:49 +1200
 >Fwd Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 09:02:22 -0400
 >Subject: Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947

 >>Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 18:01:46 -0600
 >>From: Roger Prokic
 >>Subject: Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947
 >>To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >>>Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 09:07:38 -0400 (EDT)
 >>>From: Tom Carey
 >>>Subject: Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947
 >>>To: updates@sympatico.ca

Previously, Tom Carey wrote:

 >>>After accusing me of not showing due respect, Ed, of course,
 >>>would not provide the name, saying instead that he passed along
 >>>my request to his source for a response which, of course, I am
 >>>still awaiting.

 >>>This story is one of two things: (1) an April Fool's joke [the
 >>>story, I believe, first made its appearance on this list on
 >>>April 1st], or (2) an attempt by supporters to breathe life back
 >>>into the Santilli hoax [e.g., six-fingered aliens, and the
 >>>like]. Nothing more. Nothing less.

To which Roger Prokic replied:

 >>Agreed. I think Ed should be banned from the list!

To which William Sawers responded:

 >Good God... a little drastic don't you think Roger. If we ban
 >everyone that disagrees with us, there won't be much of a list
 >left.

<snip>

 >If Ed was spouting rubbish about certain aliens
 >that he alone
 >had contact with and refused to give us the
 >"good-news" well,
 >then you may have a case.

Hello all...

Although Roger and I generally agree on things, I do not feel
that Ed should be banned from the list. On the other hand,
William makes a distinction without a difference. What is the
difference between Ed talking to an alien or an unknown MP if
Ed, and Ed alone, is the only one to have contact with the party
in question? It's exactly the same thing. As a result, Ed is
asking for a certain amount of skepticism and, in some cases,
outright rejection.

Indeed, I do know what Ed feels like to a degree. Some time ago,
I put up a one man defense for SETI since I felt that any
attempt to contact life was better than none. This statement is
NOT an invitation to get into that all over again. But I must
say the degree of hostility that I endured was pretty intense.
However, I never whined that people were treating me unfairly or
that I had been "trashed" on the list. On the contrary, I
enjoyed the debate and would gladly do it again, if necessary
(but please don't start. ;)

The problem with Ed and AA and The MP is that it seemed to all
start with Ed's declaration about his "discovery" regarding the
infamous DOD labels on the film cartons. To him this seemed
significant. To most, if not all, of us it proved nothing. This
seemed to bother Ed a great bit. Things simply escalated from
there, either because Ed was pissed that we didn't all swoon at
his discovery or because we were not giving AA the proper
respect he felt it deserved. Whatever....

I do not think Ed should be banned from this list. He has a
right to state his opinion, even if I totally disagree with it.
On the other hand, Ed needs to realize that most of the people
on this list are in the habit of asking hard questions and yearn
for proof (or even reasonable evidence) that something is as it
has been presented. For Ed to whine when we don't take him at
his word is a most unusual trait for someone that claims to be a
researcher about the UFO phenomenon.

A true researcher knows that asking questions and demanding
proof for the existence of something is what science (and this
list) is all about. Demanding proof that something DOESN'T exist
is what religion is all about. In my opinion, Ed is deeply
religious about AA.

Despite our conflict, I encourage Ed to keep digging
but stop whining.

later,

Roger Evans







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               Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947

From: Brad Sparks <RB47Expert@aol.com>
Date: 13 April 2000 01:37
Fwd Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 17:03:54 -0400
Subject: Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947


[Non-Subscriber Post]

 >>From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman@psln.com>
 >>Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2000 18:40:49 -0800
 >>Subject: Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >><Snip>

 >>He clearly remembers that it was the DOD who told him to keep
 >>quiet. Two men in suits; the CO wasn't there. He had never
 >>heard of the DOD before and therefore it stuck in his mind.

 >>From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman@psln.com>
 >>Date: Sat, 08 Apr 2000
 >>An MP's story Part 2

 ><snip>

 >>When I got back to the base and the guys from Washington talked
 >>to me. They asked me to keep quiet about what I had seen for
 >>the good of the country. I am sure the guys told me DOD.
 >>Because at that time I had never heard of it.

 >From: James Easton <voyager@ukonline.co.uk>
 >Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 14:37:58 +0100 (BST)
 >Fwd Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 11:13:46 -0400
 >Subject: Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947

I have to agree with James Easton here on the NME/DoD error. I
think it's a fatal flaw in the story. It's the kind of mistake
that someone in the 90's would make because they didn't know
what those back in the late 40's knew and haven't done enough
research to fake it perfectly. Ed Gehrman's postings on the MP's
story (see below) relate that the MP says the "DoD" designation
"stuck in his mind" along with a July 30, 1947, date and this
"DoD" label also applied to his questioning by alleged "DoD"
representatives which he found strange because he had never
heard of it before. Well, as Easton points out, the "DoD" didn't
exist until Aug 10, 1949. It was the National Military
Establishment (NME) from Sept 1947 till that date in 1949. Until
_contemporary_ documents from 1947 are found showing that "DoD"
was used officially or even unofficially, no later memoirs of
high officials or anyone else prove the contrary especially when
they were writing retrospectively and not asserting that they
had spoken to agents in 1947 identifying themselves as "DoD" or
had seen seals in July 1947 reading "DoD."

(By the way, James, the CIA was _not_ a part of the NME. Just
because it was created in the same National Security Act of 1947
doesn't mean it was part of the same organization(s). It was
placed under the authority of the NSC, National Security Council,
not the NME.)

Brad Sparks







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                   Re: Lecture On Science & UFO Abductions

From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@yorku.ca>
Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 15:58:12 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time)
Fwd Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 17:19:10 -0400
Subject: Re: Lecture On Science & UFO Abductions


 >Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 23:00:40 +1000
 >From: Bill Chalker <bill_c@bigpond.com>
 >Subject: Lecture on Science & UFO abductions
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >I will be giving a lecture to the Sydney Space Association
 >exploring the theme of Science and UFO abductions, Wednesday
 >evening, 7 - 9.30 pm, Sydney Power House Museum, 500 Harris
 >Street, Ultimo, Sydney. Entery through main entrance.  Usually a
 >small donation is requested and all are welcome.

 >I will be covering science and the UFO controversy, physical
 >evidence for abduction experiences, and focusing on an update of
 >the controversial study of a biological sample - a hair -
 >implicated in the abduction milieu of Sydney builder Peter
 >Khoury. This biological sample has been subjected to a DNA PCR
 >forensic investigation which has revealed some unusual results.
 >Further testing has been completed and the work will be
 >described.

 >The possible abduction experience of Nobel Rize winner Kary
 >Mullis, the discoverer of PCR - polymerase chain reaction - will
 >also be covered.

Hi Bill.

For those of us not lucky enough to attend your lecture, will it
be recorded on audio tape? If not, would it be possible for
interested individuals to obtain transcripts of your lecture?

I would very much like to know more about Kary Mullis' possible
abduction experience. Maybe this high profile scientist's
account may persuade other scientists and public figures who
believe to have had similar experiences to share their stories.

Also, I am interested in knowing exactly what tests you had done
on the hair. A different single strand of hair has been
forwarded to me through a well known personality in ufology and
one possible way to attempt to authenticate it would be to
perform the same tests you had done on your hair.

Nick Balaskas








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   Apr > Apr 14

                       Re: Last Lines Of Ramey Message

From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 17:20:37 -0400 (EDT)
Fwd Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 17:43:30 -0400
Subject: Re: Last Lines Of Ramey Message


 >From: James Bond Johnson <JBONJO@aol.com>
 >Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 12:56:56 -0400 (EDT)
 >Fwd Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 20:33:58 -0400
 >Subject: Re: Last Lines Of Ramey Message


 >>Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 20:32:27 -0400 (EDT)
 >>From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@aol.com>
 >>Subject: Last Lines Of Ramey Message [was: Re: Filer's Files #14]
 >>To: updates@sympatico.ca


 >>Ramey seems to be asking (or had asked) for confirmation that
 >>this team was responsible for the original mistated/mistaken
 >>story. (Ramey would therefore appear not to be fully in-the-loop
 >>on this matter.) Thus the captured crashed disk press release
 >>from Roswell base was no accident and probably not the handiwork
 >>of regular Roswell or 8th AAF personnel. Instead the press
 >>release was a plan put into action by the CI team in charge.

 >This also could explain why the RAAF "Flying Saucer Captured"
 >press release was issued on the authority of Major Marcel as the
 >command intelligence staffer - who was indeed working closely
 >with the intel team - rather than by the base Commanding
 >Officer, Colonel Blanchard.

Several points here:

1.  Marcel was intelligence, not counterintelligence.  Although
Marcel had 3 or 4 CIC [Army Counterintelligence Corp] agents in
his office and they worked together on routine matters like
security checks, the CIC operated under a separate
chain-of-command.  Marcel would not have been a member of a
special counterintelligence team if one took charge at Roswell.

2.  Although Marcel and head CIC officer at Roswell, Sheridan
Cavitt, both went out to Brazel's place to investigate
initially, there is testimonial evidence that Marcel was later
"frozen out".  Marcel probably left Roswell for Fort Worth early
in the afternoon of July 8, and didn't return until the
following evening.  He knew nothing of what had happened at
Roswell in his absence. Another CIC agent in Marcel's office,
Lewis Rickett, related how Marcel went immediately to his office
upon his return from Fort Worth and demanded head CIC agent
Sheridan Cavitt show him the report written in his absence.
Cavitt refused, even though Marcel outranked him.  Cavitt
received his real orders from elsewhere.

3.  The original Roswell press release said nothing about Marcel
authorizing the release.  You are confusing an account of what
happened published in the Roswell Daily Record with the press
release itself.  Had the press release been the handiwork of
Marcel with no authorization from above, the consequences for
him would have been severe, to say the least.  I might also note
that every other news account I've read from that period blames
either C/O Blanchard for the release or his public information
officer, Walter Haut, who was the more common scapegoat in the
press.  Just because Blanchard or Haut were named in press
stories does not mean that either of them was necessarily the
ultimate originator of the release either.  Blanchard as C/O
would bear ultimate responsibility, but he was a company man and
likely just following orders from higher command.  His career
didn't exactly suffer either.  E.g., a year later he took over
command of the 8th Air Force from Ramey.

4.  Marcel seemed to be genuinely  and extremely  annoyed over
the press release when interviewed, and even he originally
thought Haut might have been responsible (then later changed his
mind, perhaps after talking with Haut around 1980).   The press
release brought on a press feeding frenzy that made everybody's
life more difficult.  E.g., Marcel related how a reporter went
to his home  to ask his wife questions.  Marcel also probably
viewed it as a breach of security.  Contrary to what Marcel
basher's might think, Marcel was very conscious of security, and
even received three commendations for his key work in setting up
security for Operation Crossroads (A-bomb tests at Bikini) the
year before.  One of these commendations was from Gen. Ramey and
another one from Admiral William H. Blandy, in charge of
Crossroads and Commander of the Pacific/Atlantic fleets.
Incidentally Blandy wrote his commendation for Marcel several
months _after_ Roswell.

To date I have yet to see any convincing evidence that Marcel
had anything to do with the press release.  The only thing
slightly linking him to it is ambiguously worded, unsourced
hearsay printed in the Roswell Daily Record.  That no more means
he did it than other news accounts saying Walter Haut did it.

David Rudiak









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   Apr > Apr 15

               Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947

From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman@psln.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 14:27:52 -0800
Fwd Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2000 08:15:21 -0400
Subject: Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947


 >Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 12:43:09 -0500
 >To: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net>
 >Subject: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >What is the difference between Ed talking to an alien or an
 >unknown MP if Ed, and Ed alone, is the only one to have contact
 >with the party in question? It's exactly the same thing. As a
 >result, Ed is asking for a certain amount of skepticism and, in
 >some cases, outright rejection.

Of course I realized that there would be a certain amount of
skepticism; I just didn't realize that it would dominate the
conversation. The MP and I discussed all our options. He didn't
want to reveal his identity and I had to work within the same
restrictions that Ray had been/is still under.

But Ray had also met the cameraman and I didn't know anything
about the MP other than what I was able to discern from his
writing, which I think will eventually prove to be quite an
accurate reading of the situation. If he has hoaxed me and
fooled me then it was an elaborate attempt to discredit me and
of course it will work if it is such a plan. But why discredit
me. I am a nobody! Why would somebody want to hoax me?

I'm convinced we're reading a true account. The MP is trying to
figure out ways to convince you that he is who he says he is and
that his story is the correct version of events.

 >However, I never whined that people were treating me unfairly or
 >that I had been "trashed" on the list. On the contrary, I
 >enjoyed the debate and would gladly do it again, if necessary.

Those are not my words. That's the MP telling why he wanted to
keep me on track. He wants the story to come out. I have
mentioned this several times but it seems to be ingored: these
are the MP's own words, not mine.

His son felt I was being trashed because they knew that the
creature had six finger and that the creatures looked like the
Santilli footage. What's so complicated about that? And do you
want his own words or not. I want this list to consider his
testimony but I, like you, don't want it distorted. These are
his own words; not mine.

I have had only one problem with the discussion that has taken
place on the UpDates list: it ends too soon, way too soon. Errol
never gives us enough time. This issue (the validity of the AA)
needs to be settled once and for all and it may take some time.
hese are complicated issues, and need time and space.

The many critics of the AA will not assume responsibility for
their charges once these charges have been disproved. By that
time the list becomes exhausted and Errol puts a stop to it. The
detractors of the AA have yet to provide a list of the important
evidence they think proves the AA hoaxed or faked.

 >The problem with Ed and AA and he MP is that it seemed to all
 >start with Ed's declaration about his "discovery" regarding the
 >infamous DOD labels on the film cartons.

No, Roger, you're wrong about that. I did help work on the film
container stamps but this was a joint effort and I was just a
cog. I did find the information very interesting but hadn't
mention it before and only in the context of the DOD and the
AA. I'm as confused as anyone on this issue. Jame's E research
was interesting as well as informative.

If folks weren't so damn sure that the AA was a hoax, working
together, we could surely solve the Roswell puzzle.

My main problem when this all started was the treatment by Kent
Jeffrey's of information that I provided that showed that he
wasn't correct about the "restricted" codes. I informed him that
he was wrong but he ignored me. I thought that was very bad
form. And that's what started all this. It was the argument over
those issues that caught the MP's son's interest. On the
internet you never know who's watching.









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   Apr > Apr 15

               Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947

From: Steven W. Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 18:28:00 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2000 08:22:16 -0400
Subject: Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947


 >Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 10:59:06 -0400
 >From: Kelly Peterborough <kellymcg@netcom.ca>
 >Subject: Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >Dear Errol,

 >I find the recent talk of banning Ed from UFO UpDates disturing.
 >Let me tell you why. I have been a long-time (about four-years)
 >subscriber to UFO UpDates and two other lists - the Fortean List
 >and CTRL (Conspiracy Theory Research List). Now, Errol, your
 >list is so clean it squeaks! Your rule about no flamming works
 >beautifully, because you personally monitor every message and
 >won't allow it.

Kelly, and list-

I am not in favor of banning Ed from the list. However, certain
discussions have been banned from UpDates when they have run
their course, nothing new is to gained from further debate and
the discussion usually revolves around personalities, rather
than substance. If the testimony from the MP is to be
considered, it must have some test to prove it's veracity, or
the debate over it's validity is likely to be very short indeed.

While this is generally an open list, many hours of effort on
Errol's part help us to keep the flaming to a minimum and the
off-subject postings at bay. I trust that Errol will continue to
use good judgement in allowing this discussion to continue as
long as necessary, but also hope that it doesn't degenerate into
name-calling.

My 2-cents worth.

Steve








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   Apr > Apr 15

                                     Re:

From: Royce J. Myers III <ufowatchdog@earthlink.net>
Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 18:00:19 -0700
Fwd Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2000 08:25:59 -0400
Subject: Re:


 >Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 07:12:52 -0800
 >From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman@psln.com>
 >Subject: Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

I agree that banning Ed would be silly. Though Ed can't back his
story at all, this is nothing new in UFO circles. The MP story
doesn't have a shred of evidence or verification, but it is not
worthy of banning Ed from the list. However, my bottom line in
all of this (for what its worth) is put up or shut up.

Ed wrote:

 >I've been relating the true facts of this matter to the updates
 >list and will continue to do so as long as Errol gives me the
 >space.

Get some verification or drop the thread. This MP business has
gone on long enough without anything substantial to back it
with. A _fact_ has demonstratable existence, so far this alleged
MP does not. What was the title of the AA film special on
Fox... Fact Or Fiction. There is a difference between the two.

Regards,

Royce J. Myers III
eXpos: The Watchdog of UFOlogy
http://home.sprintmail.com/~rjm3  (eXpos: The Watchdog of UFOlogy)
http://home.earthlink.net/~ufowatchdog (UFO Hall o' Shame)
***** "Don't Trip On Your Open Mind." *****







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   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 >
   Apr > Apr 15

                    Re: TMP News: Weekly Briefing 4.12.00

From: GT McCoy <gtmccoy@harborside.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 17:54:03 -0700
Fwd Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2000 08:31:49 -0400
Subject: Re: TMP News: Weekly Briefing 4.12.00


 >Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 09:12:25 -0500
 >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >Subject: Re: TMP News: Weekly Briefing 4.12.00
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

Hello, all Nick, Jerry,

 >>Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 17:39:07 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time)
 >>From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@yorku.ca>
 >>Subject: Re: TMP News: Weekly Briefing 4.12.00
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>>Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 19:58:31 -0700
 >>>From: Paul Anderson <psa@direct.ca>
 >>>Subject: TMP News: Weekly Briefing 4.12.00
 >>>To: psa@direct.ca

 >Nick,

 >>>whether incidental or intentional, is that many, many people are
 >>>apparently being made sick (and some dying) in the process. Is
 >>>the military (once again) playing god? It would appear so.

Yes, I even heard this on a local show (radio) that the Gummint
was doing this for the U.N., to de-populate the U.S. and then
bring in the Chinese to run the place. "Why lookit at them thar
Kemtrails out my winder ever mornin'! (which happens to be the
'rush hour' on J-1, Vancouver B.C., Seattle, Portland, San
Francisco, L.A. etc. etc. all along J-1,) and ah knows cause' ah
listens to Art Bell!" This one soul was declaring. This was some
weeks back, I might add.

 >>Since the aircraft which allegedly produce these chemtrails have
 >>to land at some airport somewhere, military or public, and must
 >>be loaded with the nasty chemicals or biological agents thought
 >>to be released in the air over our heads, I have found no
 >>evidence that this is actual taking place here. I was told by a
 >>friend at a miltary base that this activity would be very
 >>unlikely since someone would have suspected something wrong a
 >>long time ago and notified the appropriate authorities or even
 >>the press.

Gee, think about the Air Traffic mess with all those military
jets flailing around and the possiblity of somthing large
hitting somthing somthing equally large or, more likely, smaller
(even a peli..no sorry , never mind.)

Also why don't the conspiracists listen on the scanner to ATC
conversations to telling nature like: "Black Plague 1O,
contact Nellis approach on 235.6" (or somthing of the sort).
Or, "TWA 456, three o'clock ten miles C-5B, at fl 230 spraying
chemicals." - you know, somthing like that.

 >But you don't understand. The press is part of the conspiracy!
 >So are the "appropriate authorities." Gee, you sure are naive.

 >Seriously: Your eminently sensible, informed observations about
 >this latest manifestation of anti-gummint looney-tunery are only
 >going to get you accused of being an agent of the cover-up.
 >Doing battle with conspiracy cranks is like taking on a tarbaby.

Yes I agree, good job, Nick.


 >Jerry Clark

Hey, just because you have a public forum doesn't mean you're
right and just because you have an audience, doesn't mean they
don't think you are a fool.

GT McCoy








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   Apr > Apr 15

               Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947

From: Royce J. Myers III <ufowatchdog@earthlink.net>
Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 18:00:19 -0700
Fwd Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2000 08:39:50 -0400
Subject: Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947


 >Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 07:12:52 -0800
 >From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman@psln.com>
 >Subject: Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

I agree that banning Ed would be silly. Though Ed can't back his
story at all, this is nothing new in UFO circles. The MP story
doesn't have a shred of evidence or verification, but it is not
worthy of banning Ed from the list. However, my bottom line in
all of this (for what its worth) is put up or shut up.

Ed wrote:

 >I've been relating the true facts of this matter to the updates
 >list and will continue to do so as long as Errol gives me the
 >space.

Get some verification or drop the thread. This MP business has
gone on long enough without anything substantial to back it
with. A _fact_ has demonstratable existence, so far this alleged
MP does not. What was the title of the AA film special on
Fox... Fact Or Fiction. There is a difference between the two.

Regards,

Royce J. Myers III
eXpos: The Watchdog of UFOlogy
http://home.sprintmail.com/~rjm3  (eXpos: The Watchdog of UFOlogy)
http://home.earthlink.net/~ufowatchdog (UFO Hall o' Shame)
***** "Don't Trip On Your Open Mind." *****





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   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 >
   Apr > Apr 15

                               Mullis and Hair

From: Joe Murgia <Ufojoe1@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 23:29:49 -0400 (EDT)
Fwd Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2000 08:44:10 -0400
Subject: Mullis and Hair

 >Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 23:00:40 +1000
 >From: Bill Chalker <bill_c@bigpond.com>
 >Subject: Lecture on Science & UFO abductions
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

<snip>

 >I will be covering science and the UFO controversy, physical
 >evidence for abduction experiences, and focusing on an update of
 >the controversial study of a biological sample - a hair -
 >implicated in the abduction milieu of Sydney builder Peter
 >Khoury. This biological sample has been subjected to a DNA PCR
 >forensic investigation which has revealed some unusual results.
 >Further testing has been completed and the work will be
 >described.

 >The possible abduction experience of Nobel Rize winner Kary
 >Mullis, the discoverer of PCR - polymerase chain reaction - will
 >also be covered.


Hi Bill,

Is there any written information available in the public domain
regarding the "hair" case and the Mullis case?

Thanks,

Joe Murgia
Tampa, Florida







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                    Re: TMP News: Weekly Briefing 4.12.00

From: Joe Murgia <Ufojoe1@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2000 00:25:30 -0400 (EDT)
Fwd Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2000 08:49:46 -0400
Subject: Re: TMP News: Weekly Briefing 4.12.00


 >>>Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 09:12:25 -0500
 >>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >>>Subject: Re: TMP News: Weekly Briefing 4.12.00
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 17:39:07 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time)
 >>From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@yorku.ca>
 >>Subject: Re: TMP News: Weekly Briefing 4.12.00
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 19:58:31 -0700
 >From: Paul Anderson <psa@direct.ca>
 >Subject: TMP News: Weekly Briefing 4.12.00
 >To: psa@direct.ca

 >Nick,

 >whether incidental or intentional, is that many, many people are
 >apparently being made sick (and some dying) in the process. Is
 >the military (once again) playing god? It would appear so.

Nick Wrote:

 >>Since the aircraft which allegedly produce these chemtrails have
 >>to land at some airport somewhere, military or public, and must
 >>be loaded with the nasty chemicals or biological agents thought
 >>to be released in the air over our heads, I have found no
 >>evidence that this is actual taking place here. I was told by a
 >>friend at a miltary base that this activity would be very
 >>unlikely since someone would have suspected something wrong a
 >>long time ago and notified the appropriate authorities or even
 >>the press.

 >>But you don't understand. The press is part of the conspiracy!
 >>So are the "appropriate authorities." Gee, you sure are naive.

Jerry wrote:

 >>>Seriously: Your eminently sensible, informed observations about
 >>>this latest manifestation of anti-gummint looney-tunery are only
 >>>going to get you accused of being an agent of the cover-up.
 >>>Doing battle with conspiracy cranks is like taking on a tarbaby.
 >>>Jerry Clark

I don't understand why some of you must be so sarcastic
sometimes. Are chemtrails possibly being secretly used to
"spray" the public? Well, let me be just as sarcastic.

Our gov't would never test anything on the public without
telling them. Would they? They wouldn't ever lie to us. Would
they? They don't have a history of doing similar things. Do
they?

Maybe the whole chemtrail thing is misidentification and
paranoia. But there are some credible people who have had weird
experiences. And Nick's friend saying it's unlikely this is
going on is not evidence.

Jerry, "looney-tunery" & "conspiracy cranks"? If I didn't know
better I would say you were talking about UFO researchers. Why
use such words? They've been used many times on me and you but
you seem to not have learned from it.

Here's a little something on the recent chemtrail/contrail
"controversy". Lyn Buchanan is one of the former gov't remote
viewers. He is very conservative and credible. He still, to this
day, works for the gov't in the computer field. Until recently,
his work was in a classified section of the military. Anybody
who knows Lyn knows that he doesn't make things up. Could he be
wrong about what he thinks is going on? Yes. But give him a
little credit. He may also be right.

Our gov't deserves no benefit of the doubt when it comes to
testing done on its own citizens.

Read this. It's not offered as evidence. It's just something
that adds to the current database of chemtrail sightings.
Whatever they are.

Open your minds just a bit and allow for the possibility of this
being a real thing.


_____

sightings.com

Top Remote Viewer Said Made Ill By Chemtrails

(We received the following message from Lyn Buchanan who is one
of America's finest and most respected (former government)
Remote Viewers. He has been a guest on Jeff's program several
times...see Archives.)

 From Lyn Buchanan <rviewer@netmdc.com 2-4-00

<snip>

Just catching up from a recent mild illness, and thought I would
send one bulk message to everyone at once.

Item 1: To President Clinton:

Mr. President, I saw the notice on The White House web page
stating:

The President signs the Ethics in Biotechnology Act of 1998,
promoting the highest moral standards in developing new medical
technologies.

I just wanted to let you know that I support such legislation,
and that I truely believe that the highest moral standards are a
requirement for governments and civilians alike, when
researching, developing, and testing in the biotechnology field.
Good work.

Item 2:

Thursday evening, January 20th, 2000, at approximately 10PM,
white, unmarked airplanes began a 5-day siege of spraying long
vapor trails over Alamogordo, NM. I was outside as the first one
was being laid, and was looking up into the otherwise completely
clear sky. The trail was directly over my house. As I looked up,
three very small droplets of liquid struck my face.

By the next morning, my eyes were swollen and the mucus
prevented me from opening my eyelids, as though I had pinkeye.
My sinuses felt like someone had given me a severe beating, and
there was a loud ringing in my ears which hasn't gone away, yet.
Over the next 5 days, several hundred of the trails were sprayed
over Alamogordo, some from very high altitudes, and some from
extremely low altitudes, allowing a very good and clear look at
the planes which were doing the spraying. At one point, I
counted 18 trails overhead at one time.

Spraying continued, as I said, for 5 days, and even during the
night, some of those nights. The trails were definitely not jet
condensation trails, but were very similar to the trails laid
down by sky-writers. However, they went from horizon to horizon
and lasted for a couple of hours before completely dissipating
downward. By the end of the 5 day siege, the entire valley of
the Tularosa Basin was unnaturally hazy.

The base clinic at Holloman (Joe - Holloman Air Force Base) gave
me some eyedrops for the eye infection, and nothing for the
sinuses and ringing in the ears. The eye medicine had no
noticeable affect. The base hospital's patient load appeared to
increase over the next 2-3 days, and a person working at the
hospital told me last night that the beds three weeks ago were
full with patients whose problems were mainly respiratory and
gastrointestinal, but seemed to defy diagnosis.

The planes, if not belonging to the government, were at least
government approved, since they flew unchallenged over White
Sands Missile Range, a no-fly zone. I am forced to wonder about
the moral standards of a government which attacks its own people
in such a manner, whether for research, development, or whatever
reason.

However, there seem to be no lasting effects to the Alamogordo
area. All affects appear to have been to those people who were
outside for any length of time during the spraying. I have had
students come in for two classes since then, and no one has
reported any problems.

To my knowledge, this has not happened before, and I sincerely
hope it will not happen again. However, this last Saturday and
Sunday I stood outside my home and watched to the far south as
about 10 trails were laid over the small town of Oro Grande, NM.

_____

Joe Murgia
Tampa, Florida







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   Apr > Apr 15

               Notes On 9th Annual International UFO Congress

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>
Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2000 11:02:50 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2000 11:02:50 -0400
Subject: Notes On 9th Annual International UFO Congress




Source: An International UFO Congress Support Website

http://www.padrak.com/ufo/IUFOC9DW.html



Report on the 9th Annual International UFO Congress Convention

by Donald M. Ware,
662 Fairway Ave.,
Ft. Walton Beach,
Florida, 32547
USA

Board Member of the International UFO Congress

Email received March 24, 2000

Web-Posting by Patrick Bailey, April 11, 2000


The 9th International UFO Congress

Our 9th winter convention March 5-11 in Laughlin, Nevada was
probably the best yet!

Teri Brown reported that 675 had pre-registered. We had 26
presentations involving 30 speakers, and 11 new films competed
in the film festival for newly designed EBE statue awards.

Each morning gatherings for experiencers were hosted by John
Carpenter with assistance by Mary Rodwell and Constance Clear.
The food and drinks at the Wednesday meet-the-speakers party
were sufficient for dinner, and we enjoyed a unique wedding when
Brenda and Ted Lowman were married on stage. The Saturday night
banquet and film festival was a great way to top off a week of
learning and fellowship with a loving group of 4th-density
souls. The full attendance package, including all of this plus
seven nights in the River Palms Resort and daily meal vouchers
for only $335. What a deal!



The Speakers

Joe Lewels was the first speaker Sunday evening. He is; a
financial consultant in El Paso, a former Army combat pilot
with a Ph.D. in journalism and communications, and author of The
God Hypothesis: Extraterrestrial Life and its Implications for
Science and Religion.

He recognizes that UFOs and ETs played a central roll in both
the Old and New Testaments. Based partially on his study of the
Dead Sea Scrolls he suggests that Jesus was an Essene. With 3
1/2 years of research as a certified hypnotherapist, he has
found many subjects with memories of past lives during the time
of Jesus. He is now starting a new book called 'The Christ
Connection'.

Lewels is inspired to merge science with spirit, and he views
spirit as a new science. He said matter is only physical to us
because of our vibratory frequency. If we can alter the
frequency of sub-atomic particles, we could walk through walls
like aliens do. He said that OBEs show that thinking takes place
somewhere besides the brain. Contrary to what Jesus taught, he
sees us doing a lot of judging, especially of aliens, because
they don't look like us.

He also noted that Jesus taught reincarnation and the law of
karma. It was Augustine that made the teaching of reincarnation
punishable by death. Lewells reminded us that Jesus said, "God
is inside of you and outside of you. Know thyself. Go within.
God is within thyself.


Ron Russell - On the 1999 crop formations in England.

He is a professional artist, photographer, trained CSETI field
investigator and coordinator for the Centre for Crop Circle
Studies. He said there were over 150 formations reported last
year, and in many they detected increased energy levels. He
views this as a "bridge phenomenon" with something spiritual
about it.

His slide show was impressive.  One was a winged circle. Another
showed a cube in a circle. One formation with 320 circles in a
square in was reminiscent of a computer chip. One formation in
barley was 1020 feet long. He uses a new type detector to
quantify the energy in the formations, and one at Livingston
Castle had energy levels well above background after two weeks.
Russell also mentioned that in Ohio a sheriff treated one crop
circle as a crime scene.


Dr. Roger Leir - a Podiatric Surgeon and author of 'Aliens and
the Scalpel'.

He and his surgical team have performed eight surgeries on
alleged alien abductees, removing nine separate objects. These
surgeries were carefully documented, and the objects have very
strange characteristics.

Some show isotopic ratios not of this world. They are surrounded
by a "dark, gray, shiny, well-organised membrane" made of the
body's own genetic material that blocks rejection. This coating
contains protein, carotin, and hemociterin. All objects have
been in the left side of the body. One in the wrist showed signs
of being attached to a nerve in the shoulder, and at 100x
magnification you can see what looks like nerve fibers attached.

Leir has recently established a non-profit organizations, A & S
Research, Inc. to fund his investigations.

One of Leir's subjects, Tim, spoke briefly to encourage
donations for the research. He said that six weeks before his
UFO experience he broke his neck in a car accident and was
hospitalised for 19 days. He thinks he got a medical checkup
while on board. After the object was removed, his normal cooking
tasted much too salty. He now uses less salt. He also said that
when he was 20 he was more psychic than he is now.


A. J. Gevaerd - editor of the Brazilian UFO Magazine.

An update on increasing UFO encounters in South America.

He is the Director of the Brazilian Center for UFO Research,
having over 2000 members, a Director of MUFON, and a Director of
the IUFOC.

On 9 Oct 99 something that left anomalous radioactivity crashed
on the Island of Joseph Bishop and was witnessed from two Indian
villages. The fire burned for three weeks.

On 19 Jun 99 a 737 crew encountered a cigar-shaped vehicle with
rows of windows and an "exhaust" trail - no wings. The Brazilian
ATC was on full alert. Eighteen years earlier that pilot tried
telepathy with aliens, and the UFO crossed in front of him
several times. He woke 155 passengers to view it. A catholic
Bishop and his companion refused to look.

In another recent case 21 balls of light, each about 300 feet in
diameter, were seen between Rio and Sao Paulo.

Gevaerd said he has many cases of men being taken on board to
have sex with alien women, but not women having the same
experience. I wonder if that isn't a more pleasant way to
collect sperm, and other means are used to collect eggs for
genetic engineering purposes.

As a follow-up to the 28 Jun 79 UFO Abduction at Mirasol that
Wendelle Stevens wrote about, Gevaerd said that the man has now
been taken over 20 times. He feels that they are coming about
two days before they do. He has met his hybrid child three
times. Jose Alvo reported that when he was taken to have sex
with an alien her telepathic thought caused him to desire to
have sex several times.

One man who was returned with a V-shaped "brand" on his back was
told that we must stop producing weapons, stop wars, stop
pollution, and we must preserve the environment.

Another man reported that he was placed in a glass container
where a light came from all around, and a copy of him was
produced in the next container. He was given a pill that
apparently improved his telepathic and telekenetic abilities. He
was drinking at a dinner with UFO investigators when all of the
utensils on the table suddenly bent and twisted.


Michael Hesemann - author and video producer

Known as Germany's most prolific UFO expert, he has lectured in
23 countries, investigated in 42 countries, and since 1990 has
travelled over 700,00 miles in search for truth about what's out
there. Hesemann is also an IUFOC Director.

He spoke about 'Contact in Tepoztlan: A Message for the 3rd
Millennium'. These contacts involved over 1200 witnesses and
seem to be continuing.

Carlos Diaz lives in that village two hours south of Mexico City
where strange lights have been sacred to the Aztec Indians for
ages. ETs have taught Diaz much about the situation of our
planet and the survival of mankind. His contacts look much like
humans. They say they live among us. Although they don't talk
about where the are from, he heard one refer to Maya, which we
associate with the Pleiades.

Hesemann said a vehicle filmed from STS 55 resembled one Diaz
photographed. Diaz was told that we are increasing in
creativity. This can be used to transform the world in positive
or negative directions. Negative {or selfish} people are
destroying the ecology. They are giving away the vitality of the
planet.



Lyn Buchanan was the last speaker Monday.

He has BA degrees in Languages and Psychology and an MA in
Psycholinguistics.

His natural psychic ability was first noticed at age 12. Then,
while a linguist at the US intelligence Field Station at
Augsburg, Germany a "psychokinetic" event led to General
Stubblebine transferring him to Fort Mead as a Controlled Remote
Viewer where he worked for nine years.

In 1992 he retired and built a company called Problems Solutions
Innovations. He said that in December 1995 the CIA effectively
declassified the knowledge of our government's use of CRV to
gain an informational edge in political, military, logistical,
and tactical situations.

In 1997 his company moved to Alamogordo, NM where he trains
CRVers at all levels and performs CRV work for individuals,
corporations, and government agencies.

Buchanan is a founding board member of the International Remote
Viewers Association that uses trained, tested, and proven remote
viewers for public service. He is also Director of the Assigned
Witness Program and is highly dedicated to finding missing
children.

Buchanan spoke of the history of CRV, which started with Project
Scanate in Washington, DC to spy on the US Government. The best
feedback was when the CIA raided their office and tried to
arrest them as spies. This led to the Stanford Research
Institute program led by Puthof and Targ to validate CRV. Pat
Price was considered the world's best remote viewer, but was
reported to have died in 1978.

Remote viewing apparently got into the public domain through
students who were SRI subjects. One thing they learned is that
the more info you give the viewer, the more you mess him up.

Buchanan described the levels of awareness and how you have to
get through the filters of imaginative memories, fears, desires,
and emotions of the conscious and sub-conscious mind to get to
"the source". You use the body to have him bridge the filters.
You have to feel, smell, and taste the target.

They now use a computer that calls out words to train the
sub-conscious to avoid "thinking". In one test, to get 25 hits
in a row and graduate to phase two, it took him 2 months, 25
days and 8 hours.

Buchanan mentioned the Second Annual RV Conference in Mesquite,
NV next memorial-day weekend.

During the long Q&A session he did mention that he was an
abductee. He said that recently Hal Puthof accidentally
encountered Pat Price in a Washington, DC department store
before Pat fled. In remote viewing one of the four underground
alien bases that Price found years ago, Buchanan sensed they
knew he was there, and that was OK with the aliens.


Tuesday's lectures started with Ron Regher

An aerospace engineer Regher worked on the Saturn/Apollo design
team and became interested in UFOs in the mid '50s as a young
volunteer for the Ground Observer Corps.

He spoke on 'Spy Satellites - Our Nation's Last Defense Against
Alien Invasion' and reported that in the autumn of 1974 a Hawk
missile in Korea was fired at a UFO and was shot down. The UFO
then destroyed the rest of the Hawk battery on the ground.
[Sometimes we learn our lessons the hard way.]

He said that Defense System Program (DSP) satellites 14-17 were
launched in 1989, '90 '91, and '94, and they provide a stereo
view of air and space vehicles. They detected 166 of 166 Scud
launches in Iraq.

The 19 Sep 76 Iranian UFO was tracked from there to Cairo and
Lisbon. DSP detected the cylindrical object caught on video over
Salida, CO, and also the Phoenix lights that caused an increase
in our defense condition.

I find it hard to believe, but Regher said the resolution was
0.4 inches in 1978. We can photograph Soviet spy satellites
orbiting 22,000 miles up. He said our Keyhole satellite observed
Terry Waite's abduction in Lebanon. [I wonder how many other
abductions they observe.]


Larry Warren -  co-author of 'Left at East Gate', related his
experiences as a security policeman at RAF Bentwaters.

Following two days of UFO activity, on 28 Dec 80, he said he and
others observed one on the ground while the commander, Col.
Gordon Williams, apparently communicated with some aliens.
He said questions were asked about his book on the floor of the
British Parliament. Apparently a UFO sent beams if light into
nuclear storage areas. Lord Hill-Norton said publicly that it
was of great security significance. Warren said that the object
moved through the forest and left radioactive traces on some
trees that were 25 times above background level. Ground at the
landing spot was crystallized to a depth of three feet. The base
has now been sold to a private group. He got into trouble with
security when he called his mother and talked about that night.
He said Col. Williams approved his honorable discharge. A
British tabloid made up a story to discredit the event. And when
he tried to continue his investigation his passport was
suspended on request of the Dept. of Defense for releasing
defense secrets.


Nick Begich - most famous for his book 'Angels Don't Play This
HAARP'

The son of a US Congressman and a political activist. he was
twice elected President of both the Alaska Federation of
Teachers and the Anchorage Council of Education. In 1994 he
received a doctorate in traditional medicine from the Open
International University for Complementary Medicines. He is
currently Chairman of Earthpulse Press, Inc.

His new book and his talk are titled, 'Earth Rising - The
Revolution: Toward a Thousand Years of Peace'.

He promotes a leaderless revolution, one where many individuals
use intellect, spirit, and heart for effective change. He also
stated that no one should talk about a problem without talking
about solutions. That way they argue about solutions instead of
problems.

Begich said that Tom Spencer, of the European Parliament, heard
about him on Art Bell's program, and he was invited to the
European Parliament. The Greens, Social Democrats, and
Conservatives together got a Resolution passed. Three days later
Tom Spencer's personal life was used to force his retirement.

In describing scary soft technologies, Begich said: voice prints
from the airwaves can now isolate an individual; modulated radio
waves can alter mental states of anxiety, fear, etc.;
electromagnetic energy can cause symptoms of iodine poisoning;
and memories can be removed and replaced with synthetic ones.
These technologies can be used or misused. We have a choice. He
ended by saying that each step that the people at this
conference take can lead to a thousand years of peace.


Dr. Stephen Greer - Founder and International Director of the
Center for the Study of Extraterrestrial Intelligence

He first introduced his CSETI assistant, Linda Willits, who
would help him sell his recent book, 'Extraterrestrial Contact
The Evidence and Implications'.

He was inspired to establish CSETI to train
scientist/ambassadors for the alien presence, and he established
25 such groups around the world. Then he gathered compelling
evidence from over 200 military and civilian witnesses and used
it to try to influence government policy.

He more recently provided briefings on ETs to government
officials, including a CIA Director, Congressmen, military and
White House officials, and the UN Secretary General. Greer
related that during one dinner Mrs. Woolsey asked, "How do they
communicate? The speed of light is too slow." He responded,
"Through coherent directed thought." And she said, "I thought it
had to be something like that."

A Foreign Space Technology Center official asked, "What are we
doing that is causing them so much concern?" Also, Dr. Von Braun
told him that ETs seem to be very concerned about what we do.
Stevens said that no one in CSETI has ever been threatened or
harmed by ETs. When Senator Sam Burton heard his briefing he
asked for everything he had on the subject. Then extensive
effort was made by someone to keep their staffs apart. Greer
said that a transnational government was keeping a lid on the
subject.

Greer said that at age 17 he had a near death experience, and he
learned no one could hurt him. At 18 he learned there was only
one mind in the universe. We are like billions of windows with
only one light shining through them.

One story concerned a man that slammed into the side of an ET
ship during an OBE, and it rocked the ship. This suggests both
were in some altered state. He passed on a story that Daniel
Sheehan heard from a priest. A young boy watched a butterfly
struggle to get out of its cocoon. He clipped the last attaching
strand to help. The butterfly fell to the ground and died,
because it needed the struggle to mature.

We are now emerging from a cocoon of ignorance, and we can't
depend on ETs to solve our problems for us. Greer was concerned
that existing technologies that could replace fossil fuels were
not being used.

He closed by saying he was starting a company that would bring
one of these technologies to the public. The specific technology
would soon be announced on Art Bell's program. He had an
extensive Q&A session after the evening film.


Wednesday Morning

Dr. Robert and Ryan Woods spoke about the leaked Majestic
program documents

Robert is the Director of Research for MUFON.

Ryan started with an Arthur C. Clark quote, "When a scientist
states that something is possible, he is probably right. When a
scientist states that something is impossible, he is most
probably wrong."

Concerning the leaked documents, many through Tim Cooper, he
said, "We think they are from individuals in the program who
have had remorse, rather than an MJ-12 release program."

An Interplanetary Phenomenon Unit report stated that three of
four technicians who came into contact with dead ETs became ill
and died. One MP committed suicide. Animal parts were inside a
saucer. Also, the coordinates of one crash were only 800 meters
south of the first nuclear test site.

It also said Major Charles E. Ray, head of the military hospital
at Oak Ridge, did an autopsy on an alien.

The Eisenhower briefing document, Attachment D, dated 19 Sep 47,
listed many political considerations: public trust would be
eroded, it questions the certainty of scientific knowledge,
national security in jeopardy, financial institutions and energy
providers suffer, history of religion suffers, and there may be
political repercussions, including that the announcement might
be perceived as a trick by the opposite party.

The 1952 draft of MJ-12's first Annual Report mentioned the
government policy of control and denial. It said that Great
Britain, Canada and the USSR were the only countries to be
informed of an ET landing.

Also, in 1949 and '50 several B-36 bombers were missing with
their crews.

More info about these documents can be found on
www.majesticdocuments.com.


Georgio Bongiovanni - Italian stigmatist and the reincarnation
of one of the children from the miracle at Fatima.

He received his hand stigmata in the presence of Mary at Fatima.
She assured him that intelligent life is abundant in the
universe.

His feet were stigmatized in the presence of Jesus in 1991. In
1992,and '93 he was stigmatized on the left side and the
forehead. These marks, that still bleed daily, have helped him
present a message of love and transformation to the world.

Bongiovanni said that in the past 10 years the ET presence has
greatly influenced our scientific, sociological, psychic, and
spiritual life. "We need to prepare to become one with our
cosmic family."

He noted that Earth is in a sad time: three wars ongoing, 15,000
children dying of hunger daily, and enormous contamination of
the planet. He said there is a bright future, but we have to
earn it.

Bongiovanni said we could now rewrite UFO history. Newly
surfaced Italian Secret Service documents reveal an ET landing
there in 1933.

He presented excellent UFO videos and photos. One very large
vehicle was only 20 miles from his home in 1997. Another showed
a crashed saucer being moved into a hangar at Kapustan Yar, the
Russian Area 51. The Russian military gave him a video showing a
UFO near the Russian space station when our shuttle was there on
18 Nov 95. He said there are many active duty Russian military
that do want to speak on the subject, and some higher up are
allowing them to. This is a subtle form of revenge against the
west.

He encouraged us to eliminate our own aggression, and to counter
aggression throughout the world. Search for our cause, and then
take action.

Gildas Bourdais - a French man with an MA in business
administration, works in technical publishing, is the author of
three books.

On 16 Jul 99 a 90-page document was published in France titled,
'UFOs and Defense - What Must We Be Prepared For?' - known as the
COMETA Report, it was prepared by a group of former "auditors"
at the Institute for Higher Studies for National Defense.

The report's three parts are titled: Facts and Testimonies, The
Present State of Knowledge, and UFOs and Defense.

Bourdais noted that the COMETA report was published about the
same time that Corso and Birnes published 'The Day After
Roswell'. It was widely distributed within the French
government.

One case mentioned involved a UFO 200-300 meters in diameter.
One Mirage 4 fighter pilot expressed fear when a UFO kept on his
tail, and he could not escape it.

The report noted how debunking articles were blindly accepted by
the press in many countries. It mentioned the research of Dr.
Barry Downing on religious aspects, but it was criticized for
not mentioning the famous French investigator, Aim Michel. It
recommended discussions with the US on increased research.

Media reaction to the report was mixed. Some called it modern
mythology, while a science magazine article was titled, UFOs:
Why Science is Beginning to be Interested."


Delores Cannon - considers herself a regressionist and psychic
researcher.

Author of many books, she spoke primarily about material in her
new book, 'The Custodians: 'Beyond Abduction'.

Here are a few comments from a very informative talk.

Several crashes were not widely reported. Some were caused by
electrical storms interfering with their systems.

The 'Watchers' use saucer craft operated by thought. There is an
order to everything. There are councils over solar systems,
galaxies, and universes. The Star Trek rule of non-interference
is real. She mentioned the creation of human/alien hybrids and
even some cloning.

She closed by saying that some abductees may be responsible for
saving the human race. Her book has much new information. Some
that was gathered in 1992 on tape was physically removed from
her for several years, so it would not be published prematurely.
It discusses other dimensions and the reasons for implants in
the human body. I recommend reading the book.


Wednesday Evening

We had a really fun social gathering where I was able to do
something besides take notes.


Thursday Morning

Following the experiencers' support meeting, John Carpenter
hosted a non-recorded open mike session.

About seven ladies and gentlemen shared their personal stories
with the audience. This was interesting, and it apparently has
some therapeutic value.

John Carpenter then presented his lecture with excellent visual
aids.

He is a licensed psychiatric therapist who has treated thousands
of psychological problems over 20 years. In the past 11 years he
has worked on 140 "abduction" cases. Carpenter is Director of
Abduction Research for MUFON. He has written 5 papers, produced
7 videos, and is working on a book, 'Beyond Fantasy: Human
Contact with Non-Human Beings'.

Among his photos was a tabloid announcing 'Hillary Clinton
Adopts a Space Alien Baby'. The baby appeared to me to be the
same species that was on the cover of Time magazine 23 Jun 97,
which I think is properly called Homo alterios spacialis.

Carpenter said that some gray folks that float through walls
frequently operate in threes. He spoke of apparent alien
mistakes. Different family members wake up in the wrong bed. One
woke up in the wrong house.

One man on a farm met aliens beside a ship who wanted something.
He went to the barn to get it, and when he returned the ship was
invisible until he got within 50 feet. It was somehow shielded.

Carpenter ended with a clip from Paranormal Borderline about an
abduction caught on security cameras. When he was returned on
camera 110 minutes later he vomited, and he was disoriented
according to the other security guard. He called in sick the
next three days, but never returned to work.


Constance Clear

A 30-year San Antonio psychotherapist and author of 'Reaching
for Reality: Seven Incredible True Stories of Alien Abduction'.
She has a long list of professional credentials.

 From 1982 to 1997 she facilitated a support group for bereaved
parents, which she feels is her best preparation for the work
with abductees she is doing now.

She titled her talk, 'Ambassadors or Lab Rats?'

She received one of the 90,000 copies of the Roper Report;
'Unusual Personal Experiences' mailed by the Bigelow Foundation.
This led to her attendance at the Mack, Hopkins, Jacobs
conference in San Antonio, which got her on the PEER referral
list.

Clients drive hundreds of miles to visit her, and her first
experiencer support group of seven has met for four years. She
has nine in her new group. She finds it interesting that all
nine and half of the first group seem compelled to save seeds.
Both men in the first group pack iron. Men in Texas are supposed
to be in control and protect their families.

Clear said we can choose to hate or love. One client was a
German POW who had chosen to love when he was beaten
unconscious. He met Jesus. When he came to he said in German to
the guard, "I love you." His wounds were immediately healed.

Some clients have memories as early as six months of age. One
homicide detective, Robert Snow, had a past-life regression from
which he collected 28 bits of information on his life as Carol
Beckwith. His investigation found 26 of those bits, proving the
case for him.

Her client, 'Kay', has a strong bond with a being that has
visited her since she was a child. When she was under serious
stress they appeared and answered her questions. Then she began
to consciously remember her encounters. Her cats that normally
sleep on her bed sleep elsewhere on nights the aliens come.

One client asked her spirit guide about her alien buddies. The
guide responded, "I would not let them perish. They are my
children also." When she asked to see them, four showed up.

During the Q&A session, she said ten is an ideal number for a
support group. You don't need to be licensed. Just practice
compassion.


Thursday - 4:30 to 6:30 PM

Dr. Jonathan Reed, co-author Robert Raith, and publicist Pamela
MacLeod sat on the stage for their highly controversial
presentation.

Reed gained some notoriety when he reported on Art Bell that he
had an alien in his garage for nine days in 1996.

Reed, who claims a Ph.D. in Developmental Research Psychology,
was hiking in the woods of Washington State when his dog Suzy
attacked an alien. He called her off with no effect. The alien
then mysteriously killed Suzy, causing Reed to hit it in the
head with a stick. Thinking that he killed it, after taking some
video and still shots of the alien and a strange black thing
nearby, he wrapped it in a thermal blanket and put it in his
freezer.

The story and its aftermath are detailed in their new book, 'Link
- An Extraterrestrial Odyssey'.

Reed said this talk was his show and tell, in spite of some
folks' actions to keep him from telling it. He said about 85% of
the evidence he gathered was taken from him.

Some who offered to help in analysis claimed to be from MUFON,
but they weren't.

Art Bell and Eastman Kodak have analyzed the film.

When he was lying beside the body feeling ill, he heard a
harmonic sound that led him to the black "obelisk". It felt like
very cold marble, and it was immovable. The tone changed to a
more pleasant sound after he touched it.

The alien had five fingers and was 4 1/2 feet tall. It only
weighed 50 pounds.

When he was making a video record of the alien, it partially
opened its eyes.

He was only recently convinced of this by Cole Larson. The alien
took water he was offered. The alien wore a black suit that
reminded him of wet spandex. When he cut the suit, it repaired
itself.

An artifact that he found near the body, he calls the Link. It
appeared to be bioreactive, and it is being analyzed in Japan by
a supportive group he calls the Alliance.

He said that after nine days another group in black suits and
vans had him fired, stole everything from his office and home
and erased much of his background. He lost his girlfriend.

His best friend, Gary, went into hiding and has withered from
200 pounds to 130. Dolly, an older lady who was keeping a
package for him was found dead on the kitchen floor. The package
was gone. The coroner said she died of natural causes.

He said that a "collector" offered over a million dollars for
all rights to the pictures. He did not accept.

Reed made a presentation to a group of 120 in San Diego. Four
days later a man on the street put a 9mm gun to his chest, and
when he tried to force it away it fired into his shoulder. The
man fled without a word. Reed thinks the man did not intend to
shoot him, just to scare him.

I don't know why anyone would want to make up a story like this.
I see some lessons for us here. Apparently a human nearly killed
an alien over a dog.


George Knapp - Investigative reporter and anchor at KLAS TV-8 in
Las Vegas was our speaker after dinner.

He provided some interesting information and the most humor of
the week. He is best known internationally for his TV
mini-series, 'UFOs - The Best Evidence'.

Before 'The Day After Roswell' was written, NIDS asked Knapp to
contact Corso and he taped hours of interviews. Knapp was
thinking about helping him write the book. Corso was reported to
have said, "We didn't do enough on the bodies. I had the money,
and I take the blame on that." He seemed to be interested in how
the brain worked.

One story involved Corso visiting a launch site at White Sands
Missile Range when he went into an old gold mine to cool off.
Water trickled out. He encountered an alien. He reached for his
gun, and heard in his head, "Don't!" He asked, friend or foe? It
responded, "Neither. It asked to have the range radar shut down
for 10 minutes. Corso asked, "What do I get?" The alien
responded, "A new world, if you can take it." Corso got into his
jeep and ordered the radar shut down. However, one radar site
did track an object departing at over 3000 mph.

At some point I think he reported seeing a smooth, cold saucer
on the ground that killed his motor and spun his compass.

Corso mentioned an autopsy at Walter Reed. He said the eyelid
was a light collector they used at night. They apparently had no
internal digestive system. Corso said some alien artifacts go to
Los Alamos now.

Knapp mentioned the recent lawsuit on burning wastes at Area 51.
As a result, EPA got their security manual, and it is now on the
Internet.


Friday

Peter Davenport - Director of the National UFO Reporting Center
since 1994

His broad education includes degrees from Stanford in Russian
and biology, an MS in genetics and biochemistry of fish, and an
MBA in finance and international business. He has worked as a
commercial fisherman, Russian translator, fisheries observer on
Soviet vessels, a flight instructor, and a businessman. He was
founding President of a Seattle-based biotech company that now
employs over 300.

He has personally observed UFOs at St. Louis in 1954, Baja in
1990, and Washington in 1992.

Davenport was pleased to introduce his web master, David Stepp.

He got a report from a federal employee of a of star-like UFOs
moving rapidly over the White House and gyrating in relation to
each other at 10:05 last Friday night.

One report involved an object moving from Main to New Jersey
that met with five other UFOs over Basking Ridge, Vermont. One
"dish with a bite out of the edge" went around an airplane.

Investigation of the very large V-shaped object over Phoenix
indicated that it; shined a brief beam of light to the ground,
it blurred the light of the moon as it passed, and close
inspection of one light looked like a "tornado of gold sparks."

He said the UFO that was observed by a large group to pick up an
elk, apparently dropped it unmarked.

Most amazing was a tremendous flare of light west of
Albuquerque, moving south, that flooded a 60-mile-wide path
brighter than daylight. Sky cameras at Sandia Lab picked it up,
and there were many witnesses. Apparently there was a second one
ten minutes later.

Davenport said that on 17 Mar 97 a man who apparently knew what
he was talking about said, "They are sophisticated craft under
intelligent control, and we are worried about them."


Wendelle Stevens  - spoke about man-made flying saucers

He graduated from Lockheed Aircraft Maintenance & Repair School,
Aviation Cadet School, and Fighter Pilot Advanced Training all
as a very young 2nd lieutenant in the US Army Air Corps. Then he
attended the Test Pilot School where he learned to fly
everything in the Air Corps inventory and a few Navy aircraft as
well. Later he was assigned to the Ptarmigan Project, recording
and analyzing visual and EMF emissions throughout the Arctic.
Looking for influences to aircraft systems caused by UFOs, they
recorded all disturbances. This effort was quite productive, and
the data was hand carried to Washington, DC nightly.

Stevens owns the UFO Photo Archives, the largest of its kind in
private hands - over 3000 of them. He is a founding Director of
the IUFOC.

Stevens recalled early attempts by Vladimar Terzinski to speak
about Nazi flying saucers at our conference, but most people
were skeptical.

Then at a private meeting three years ago with Stan Dayo from
Australia he was inspired to study these man-made vehicles.

Stevens thought maybe 2% of the saucer sightings were man made,
when Dayo suggested 40%. Dayo was the AF Academy honor student
who, after completing his final exam, looked on his neighbor's
desk before turning it in. He reported this to the class monitor
and was summarily dismissed without a commission. A Senator then
referred him to the TRW Corp. that held a prime government
contract for gravity research. He was immediately hired. They
knew of his preparation by his Academy counsellor and
controllers. In the academy he had learned speed-reading in an
altered state of consciousness. He averaged 30 minutes per book.

The final exam event was apparently a recruiting technique for
masterminds to avoid military duty. He worked for TRW when they
solved the gravity control problem. Then he went to Pine Gap,
Australia. Stevens found several books on the subject: 'UFOs:
Nazi Secret weapons'; 'Genesis' by W. Harbenson (written as fiction
but 80% true); 'Man Made UFOs 1944-1994 - 50 Years of
Suppression'; and 'The German Saucer Story'.

Stevens reported on the German tech film of their Kugelblitz,
V-7 weapons research that the Australians acquired as war booty.
Two Kugelblitz failures were the Spitzbergen Island crash and
another on the coast near Heligoland. In both cases there was no
doubt to the origin, and the Americans and British carried away
much of the disk residue. The disk that came down 8 miles SE of
Laredo, TX was one of 32 Kugelblitz disks brought here from
Germany after the war. It was being tested from White Sands with
a rhesus monkey on board when they lost control.

Stevens mentioned some Haunebu ships about 100 feet in diameter,
and smaller 30-foot Grill class ships. There were apparently
nine secret bases in Germany working on anti-gravity vehicles.
One involved BMW.

Stevens even recalls seeing a map of the base locations in
recovered German documents while in the AF, but it was shredded.
After Hitler learned that he could not use these antigravity
vehicles in the war, he launched two expeditions to the
Antarctic led by Admiral Richard, one in 1938 and one in 1942
after the eastern front losses. The work on flying disks
continued there.

According to Meier case documents, Ptah said 334 members of a
secret German society continued the work that has remained
secret even today.

Stevens also mentioned that Adrian of the Miami contacts said he
and his girl friend were taken by Pleiadians to a secret base in
SW Brazil where they saw German style saucers parked on
pedestals.

And I recall from that case that Adrian was told that some of
the German scientists' children were raised on the Pleiades and
are now back here working for BMW. Finally, at last years
conference a retired NRO gentleman presented us privately a
picture labelled Haunebu 5, made by German, American, and
Aldebaran scientists in Antarctica.

James Guilliland - a teacher, spiritual counselor, and
energetic healer living at his Self Mastery Earth Institute, a
70-acre retreat at the base of Mt. Adams in Trout Lake, WA.

Commercial real estate made him a material success by age 26
when he had an ocean-surf NDE that changed his life. He is
author of 'Becoming Gods: A Reunion with the Source', and
'Becoming Gods II.'

For 12 years many strange things have been happening at the
retreat. One photo shows a bright light over a statue of Jesus
in the garden. He was facing west at 10 AM. Another shows a
golden-white light brighter and twice the diameter of
street lights. At 8 PM over Mt. Adams, Spar Giedeman, a member of
his group, made a video of a UFO that tribal police watched from
the other side of the mountain. Guilliland's guide said, "It is
not your job to defend these pictures."

He reported no fear at his sky watches; however, his Korean
friend was hit with an energy that caused many lesions. When he
asked his guides to help, all the lesions healed the next day.

He introduced Jim Dilettoso who sought him out to study his
spiritual encounters. Dilettoso said people could be trained to
advance their consciousness so that the OZ factor takes effect.
This is where some people see things when others near them
don't. He also studies others of the group at the retreat.

After Guilliland's NDE, his aura photo showed a powerful gold
light. One interesting photo showed energy waves coming to a
lady who had an astral face superimposed over hers. Local police
recognized the astral face as being someone who overdosed on
drugs at her place. She did not feel well until spirit
releasement therapy cleared her.

He said they teach compassion and love at the retreat, and he
reminded us that Jesus asked us to be kind to each other and the
planet.


Michael Newton, Ph.D. - holds a doctorate in counseling and is a
state-certified Master Hypnotherapist in California. He is
author of 'Journey of Souls: Case Studies of Life Between Lives'.

He learned to "see" into the spirit world through the mind's
eye of subjects who are in a hypnotized or super-conscious
state. He retired from a large regular practice in Los Angeles
to specialize at his secluded spot in Northern California. He
has a waiting list of over two years. He said it is amazing
what he can learn in three hours. His colleagues now say he has
gone New Age.

When he asked one lady if she had a group of friends that she
missed, she saw her soul group all in front of her in the spirit
world. Some soul groups seem small for fast learners, because
slower ones seem far away. When he asked one man who had been on
many worlds about sex, he said there is nothing like Earth for
sex. He said souls are of equal value no matter where they are
on the ladder. He often finds out why people were given their
bodies. One lady said she first came to Earth from the Pleiades
as a goat herder right after the flood, to repopulate the
planet. When a child dies very young, it may come back as the
mother's next child. Picking a body is like a stage play, and
many souls look at it that way. He closed quoting Shakespeare;
"All the World is a stage."


After Dinner

William Buhlman - author of Adventures Beyond the Body

He spoke on 'Out of Body Exploration and Alien Abduction'. He
said that after 30,000 people responded to his survey, he has
determined that there is an increasing amount of spontaneous
OBEs. There is a shift of consciousness occurring.

Years ago, after visualizing objects as he went to sleep for
four weeks, and he woke up feeling different. He said, "I
reached for the wall, and my hand went through it. I thought of
getting up, and I was immediately standing at the end of my bed
looking at my body lying there. We can all do it."

He said that historical records showing a bird leaving the body
depict an OBE state. He has been scared, shocked, and amazed but
never harmed in an OBE. He suggested that many people who have a
non-physical experience interpret it as physical. Here are some
common features he mentioned between OBEs and alien abductions;
humming, light with no obvious origin, sense of a presence,
strong state of vibration, paralysis, missing time, another
reality, and many beings present.

Then an OBE meditation was practiced.


Saturday

Graham Birdsall and Russell Callaghan made the first
presentation.

Birdsall is editor and publisher of UK's UFO Magazine'.

Callaghan is their web master and videographer.

They presented some excellent photos and video, and then gave a
behind-the-scenes preview of the new international UFO exhibit
that will eventually travel to six continents.

Birdsall said that British TV covered well the recent mutilation
of sheep there.

At the Farnborough Air Show people were asked not to film the
rear of the B-2. When the press asked why, they were told, "That
is the sensitive part." The pilot said they refuelled twice, but
the second time was only because they did not want to refuel
there on the ground.

They showed excellent film of underwater ruins near Japan with a
base the size of the great pyramid. It was as high as a six-
story building and had hieroglyphics around the base.

The new UFO exhibit, 'Phenomena', was open in Australia and is
on a world tour this year. "It has the power to change the way
we think about the subject."" It covers 12,000 square feet of
space. It will be in Sydney through the Olympic games, and is
promoted by Fox. One guy controls 95% of the money. Franchises
have been invited in, and they are cloning five exhibits to
cover the world.

There were many good videos, including some from NASA. One
showed a flying saucer with a smaller one coming off of the
bottom and departing left. Another video showed a grub-like UFO
- very strange.


Santiago Yturria Garza  - founded the first UFO Research Group in
Monterey, Mexico in 1974.

He has amassed the largest UFO video and photo archive in
Mexico. He said the Mexico UFO wave is still increasing.

One TV reporter announced that there was a UFO in the sky,
please go out and video it. It remained still at 10,000 feet for
30 minutes. An airline pilot also saw it.

In April '98 a forest fire became one of Mexico's worst
ECO-disasters of the century. A cigar shaped object appeared
near the fire.

One impressive video showed a hamburger-shaped object, black
with white in the middle and a light on top. Then the white part
turned red.

Garza said the Mexican population seems to relate well with the
phenomenon, and they are not afraid.

The Final Speaker

Daniel Sheehan - has degrees from Harvard in government, law,
and divinity. He established the Christic Institute in
Washington, DC, and has been legal counsel on many high -profile
cases such as; Karen Silkwood, Iran/Contra, the American
Sanctuary Movement, the Pentagon Papers, Three Mile Island
pollution, and Watergate.

He has gained access to many restricted government files.

An impressive man whose curly hair reminded me of judge's wig.

Today he is General Counsel to Joe Firmage's International Space
Sciences Organizations, and he heads the Strategic Institute to
Define a New Paradigm.

He wants to integrate the fact of the ET presence into all
classical fields of human knowledge: Cosmology, Theology,
Philosophy, Physical Science, Psychology, Ontology,
Epistemology, Human Teleology, etc.

He also wins the prize for the presentation with the longest
title; 'The Probability of a Public Encounter with ET
Intelligence in the 21st century and the Public Policy
Implications of Such ET Contact on American Foreign Policy,
American Military Policy, and American National Security
Policy.'

Sheehan represented Dr. John Mack, chair of Harvard's Dept. of
Clinical Psychology, when the University tried to fire him after
he published Abduction; Human Encounters with Aliens. Mack tried
to publish an article on his research in the New England Journal
of Medicine, but the editorial board would not even consider it,
so he wrote the book.

Sheehan, funded by Lawrence Rockefeller, resolved the case
against Mack quickly.

In 1987 he became Chief Counsel for the Jesuit National H.Q.. They
asked him to get UFO information from the Vatican.

While seeking information about Carter's 21 Jan 77 UFO sighting
from George Bush, then Director of the CIA, Bush said that a
congressional committee would have to ask the Library of
Congress to declassify the information for a report to the
President.

He once asked the Washington Inter-religious Council staff to
consider the UFO/ET presence and was met with total silence.

He was asked by the Gorbachev Foundation to try to clarify the
UFO/ET facts that pertain to public policy.

He hosted a round table at the October 1999 State of the World
Forum that included 24 people, such as; John Mack, Depak Chopra,
Jean Houston, Joe Firmage, Hal Puthof, Wink Franklin of IONS,
Rick Tarnis, Sam Keen, etc. They even appeared before the entire
group of 1000 world leaders.

Sheehan said that many members of the human family are not
properly prepared for open contact with ET. He sees two major
risks; some covert military group may be preparing to engage
militarily and some people may be so unprepared they may become
totally subservient. Neither is appropriate.

Sheehan mentioned 12 separate premises that we can discuss this
year, such as:

1. We should accept the 1979 Congressional Report to Carter
saying that ET exists. There are two to six highly intelligent,
technological species in our galaxy.

2. If there had been contact with our government, they would not
have told us.

3. People have different paradigms depending on their
worldviews: authoritarian, reactionary, conservative, moderate,
liberal, progressive, or mystical. You can't convince the first
three to not treat ET as a threat.

Then he mentioned eight possible origins of UFOs with his
assessment of probability; 51% ET civilization either positive
or negative, 40% super secret government or private contact, 5%
PSY-OPS operation, 2% spiritual phenomenon, 1% time travel, and
1% either extra-dimensional manifestations or projections into
another reality.

He said we are at a special time in history. Dr. Fugiama
announced that the western civilization has a short time to
fulfill its promises to the people of the world or they will
look elsewhere.

Then he mentioned the high level debate between Zbigniew
Brzezinski, cofounder of the Trilateral Commission, and
conservative Samuel P. Huntington, former Editor of Foreign
Affairs.

He closed by saying we must show ET the major qualities of
humanity. We need a public interest group with chairs for the ET
presence, the environment, peace, etc. And we must stop
attacking each other's positions.

He received great applause.


The Films, Videotapes, and The EB Awards!

On Saturday night seven of the 11 films that entered the film
festival shared 9 EBE statues.

Ken Seddington, the Congress Director from the United Kingdom,
had selected and supervised the panel of judges who watched all
of the films, and he introduced the producers who were present
for the showing. We appreciate the efforts of all of the judges.

'Close Encounters: Proof of Alien Contact' produced by Chris
Wyatt & Lela Vandavier won for Best UFO Documentary - Short
Subject.

'UFOs and Cosmic Dimensions - Above Top Secret' produced by Yin
Gazda won for Best UFO Documentary - Long Subject.

'The Secret of Nikola Tesla', directed by Kristo Papic
in Zagreb Film Studios, Croatia won Best Feature Film - UFO or
Related Theme.

'Expressions of ET Contact: A Visual Blueprint' produced by
Bradley DeNise and directed by Mary Rodwell won Best
Abductee/Contactee Documentary and Best Musical Score within a
Documentary.

'UFOs - The Footage Archives Part 5 (1998 - 1999)' produced by
Michael Hesemann & Natalia Zahradnikova was chosen Best UFO
Footage (Stills or Live) within a Documentary.

'Mystery of the Crop Circles' Produced by Georgio Bongiovanni
and directed by Piergiorgio Caria won THE PEOPLES CHOICE AWARD
and Best Non-UFO Documentary in a Related Field. It was a real
pleasure to watch this film.

Also, among the four entries that did not receive an EBE
statue, I found Joe Escamilla's 'Rods: The Smoking Gun' very
interesting. Those 'rods' that seem to defy our physics make me
wonder if they consist of a different kind of matter, perhaps a
morontia material as mentioned in 'The Urantia Book'.

On Saturday night we seated 500 for an excellent buffet and
great social experiences, helped by ample red and white wine on
the tables.

I truly appreciate the wonderful technical crew, the staff, and
especially Bob and Teri Brown for their great effort to bring us
together for wonderful fellowship and learning experiences twice
each year.

The Summer Seminar will be August 5-11 at the Palm River Resort
in Laughlin, NV. You may learn more about it at
www.ufocongress.com.


The Audiotapes and Videotapes Are Available

Ninety-minute audiotapes for $8 and videotapes for $20 are
available from the Congress at 303-543-9443,Fax 303-543-8667.

Prices are $7 and $17 for members.

P+H in the US is $2 + .75/additional for audio, and $4
+1/additional for video.

Send all orders to:

The International UFO Congress
9975 Wadsworth Pkwy.
#K2-274
Westminister, Colorado
80021, USA







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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 >
   Apr > Apr 15

                              Re: Mullis & Hair

From: Bill Chalker <bill_c@bigpond.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2000 23:41:40 +1000
Fwd Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2000 11:16:01 -0400
Subject: Re: Mullis & Hair

 >Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 23:29:49 -0400 (EDT)
 >From: Joe Murgia <Ufojoe1@aol.com>
 >Subject: Mullis and Hair
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca


Re. Joe Murgia's enquire on links to the Kary Mullis 'abduction'
story and the 'alien hair' DNA PCR investigation.

See the International UFO Reporter, Volume 24, No.1, Spring
1999, 'Strange Evidence' by Bill Chalker, pgs. 3-16, 31. (this
article has been translated into Spanish for  the publication
'Cuadernos de Ufologia', No.25-26,2000, as 'Extrana evidencia')

See The Austalasian Ufologist, Vol.3, No.3, #rd Quarter, 1999,
"FO Abductions & Science: A case study of Strange evidence" by
Bill Chalker, pgs. 43-56.

See a brief summary in a CNI report carried on the UFO folklore
site at:

http://www.qtm.net/~geibdan/a1999/jun/g9.htm


Kary Mullis describes his experience in his own book 'Dancing
Naked In The Mind Field'. I interviewed him at length and
describe the milieu in an article entitled 'An Interesting
Aside' carried on the CUFOS web site:

http://cufos.org/iur_Spring99_addendum.html


These and other links to a wider tour of some of my research and
links to Australian UFO research, history & controversies can be
found at:

http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates/2000/mar/m31-011.shtml


Please note the following corrections to 3 of the links
specified in the March 31, 200 UFO Update message:

'The Oz Files - The Australian UFO Story Tour' (brief biography,
etc):

http://enterprise.powerup.com.au/~auforn/Bcintro.htm


Australian UFO physical trace link:

http://www.powerup.com.au/~tkbnetw/main_page_australiasian_phy.htm


The Boise Boy'S Legacy' - An Alternative View Of Ufology's
Beginning To Stir The Pot:

www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates/1997/apr/m27-043.shtml


Happy surfing,

Bill Chalker








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   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 >
   Apr > Apr 15

                              Re: Mullis & Hair

From: Bill Chalker <bill_c@bigpond.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2000 23:48:04 +1000
Fwd Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2000 11:19:19 -0400
Subject: Re: Mullis & Hair


 >Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2000 23:41:40 +1000
 >From: Bill Chalker <bill_c@bigpond.com>
 >Subject: Re: Mullis & Hair
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca


Link Correction

The link for the CUFOs Mullis story should be at:
http://www.cufos.org/iur_Spring99_addendum.html

Regards,

Bill Chalker






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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 >
   Apr > Apr 15

                             Re: Mullis and Hair

From: Sue Kovios <bradford@globalserve.net>
Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2000 10:15:02 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2000 11:23:33 -0400
Subject: Re: Mullis and Hair


 >Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 23:29:49 -0400 (EDT)
 >From: Joe Murgia <Ufojoe1@aol.com>
 >Subject: Mullis and Hair
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >>Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 23:00:40 +1000
 >>From: Bill Chalker <bill_c@bigpond.com>
 >>Subject: Lecture on Science & UFO abductions
 >>To: updates@sympatico.ca

 ><snip>

 >>The possible abduction experience of Nobel Rize winner Kary
 >>Mullis, the discoverer of PCR - polymerase chain reaction - will
 >>also be covered.


 >Hi Bill,

 >Is there any written information available in the public domain
 >regarding the "hair" case and the Mullis case?

This might help.
http://www.evozine.com/mullis.html

Dancing Naked in the Mind Field- book of interest:

Alien Abductions, Astral Planes, Killer Spiders, LSD trips,
Nitrus Oxide Near Overdose, Inventing PCR- Nobel
Laureate Kary Mullis is no ordinary scientist.

Sue









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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 >
   Apr > Apr 15

                    Re: TMP News: Weekly Briefing 4.12.00

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2000 09:36:44 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2000 11:25:26 -0400
Subject: Re: TMP News: Weekly Briefing 4.12.00


 >Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2000 00:25:30 -0400 (EDT)
 >From: Joe Murgia <Ufojoe1@aol.com>
 >Subject: Re: TMP News: Weekly Briefing 4.12.00
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >>>>Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 09:12:25 -0500
 >>>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >>>>Subject: Re: TMP News: Weekly Briefing 4.12.00
 >>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>>Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 17:39:07 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time)
 >>>From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@yorku.ca>
 >>>Subject: Re: TMP News: Weekly Briefing 4.12.00
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 19:58:31 -0700
 >>From: Paul Anderson <psa@direct.ca>
 >>Subject: TMP News: Weekly Briefing 4.12.00
 >>To: psa@direct.ca

 >>>Since the aircraft which allegedly produce these chemtrails have
 >>>to land at some airport somewhere, military or public, and must
 >>>be loaded with the nasty chemicals or biological agents thought
 >>>to be released in the air over our heads, I have found no
 >>>evidence that this is actual taking place here. I was told by a
 >>>friend at a miltary base that this activity would be very
 >>>unlikely since someone would have suspected something wrong a
 >>>long time ago and notified the appropriate authorities or even
 >>>the press.

 >>>But you don't understand. The press is part of the conspiracy!
 >>>So are the "appropriate authorities." Gee, you sure are naive.

 >>>>Seriously: Your eminently sensible, informed observations about
 >>>>this latest manifestation of anti-gummint looney-tunery are only
 >>>>going to get you accused of being an agent of the cover-up.
 >>>>Doing battle with conspiracy cranks is like taking on a tarbaby.
 >>>>Jerry Clark

 >Our gov't would never test anything on the public without
 >telling them. Would they? They wouldn't ever lie to us. Would
 >they? They don't have a history of doing similar things. Do
 >they?

Show me a shred of evidence for the sort of massive secret plot
necessary to conduct the experiments the conspiranoids are being
done with contrails, and we'll talk.  Till then, it's wild,
unproved, irresponsible conjecture which caters to the worst
instincts of our fellow human beings: the impulse to imagine
dangers even as real social ills -- such as world hunger,
environmental degredation, bloody civil conflict, and more --
are ignored.  This kind of nonsense is not only wrong on the
facts but wrong on the moral responsibilities we all share.

Jerry Clark








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   Apr > Apr 15

                       McClendon: UFO Cover-Up Fading

From: Kelly Peterborough <kellymcg@netcom.ca>
Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2000 10:44:43 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2000 11:29:07 -0400
Subject: McClendon: UFO Cover-Up Fading


Source: Aerial Phenomena Research Group

http://aerial.itlnet.net/

April 13, 2000

UFO Cover-Up Fading Says Legendary White House Correspondent
by Sarah McClendon--White House Correspondent

News Release from the McClendon News Service

3-30-98

Washington, D.C. -- Unidentified Flying Objects, a term given
for many years to unexplained sightings of craft in the skies
over every state in the Union, are actual visitors from other
worlds, believe a community of scientists and technicians
employed by government.

The real danger to the U.S. and perhaps this whole planet is the
government has placed such a heavy blanket of secrecy upon this
issue. So much secrecy, those in government who have knowledge
showing UFOs are identifiable feel the subject cannot be
discussed by those in the know without serious repercussions.
Others are afraid their friends and co-workers will think they
are crazy if they even so much as insinuate that UFOs are
identifiable as manned craft from outside the earth. This
particularly applies to newspaper editors and publishers,
reporters and analysts. Thus the U. S. is denying itself the
chance to learn more about UFOs or to encourage research despite
the fact the U. S. stands to gain form such discussions.

Not publicized but true is that the Clinton administration, soon
after coming to office, had many briefings on the subject.
Laurence Rockefeller provided the information for the President
and Mrs. Clinton. Others provided documents and verbal briefings
to presidential advisors Jack Gibbons (science), Bruce Lindsay
(personal), Anthony Lake (national security) and Vice President
Albert Gore. About the same time a three hour briefing was given
by Dr. Steven Greer to the sitting Director of the CIA, Admiral
Woolsey.

Subsequently, Clinton instructed Webster Hubbell, when naming
him to the position of Associate Attorney General at the Justice
Department, that he wanted him to investigate and report back to
him on two things, circumstances surrounding the death of
President John F. Kennedy, and the existence of UFOs. Hubbell,
despite his position and the presidential imprimatur, was boxed
in at Justice Department and never was able to find out. All of
this was disclosed in Hubbell's memoir Friends in High Places.

Now the lid on UFOs is gradually coming off. There is a
national drive underway to get one million signatures on a
petition calling for an open Congressional hearing for
government employee witnesses. Dr. Steven Greer, Director of
the Center for the Study of Extraterrestrial Intelligence
(CSETI), devotes most of his time seeking disclosure of
government evidence proving the existence of craft manned by
non-humans. Another who feels that positive proof exists within
government, is Lt. Col. Philip J. Corso (retired), who reveals
in a recent book, The Day After Roswell, that he was in charge
of the Roswell files during his tenure as head of the Army's
Foreign Technology Division. He states unequivocally that these
files confirm the crash which occurred at Roswell, New Mexico
was an alien space craft. This completely refutes the Air Force
denials and subsequent explanations. Corso says that the crashed
vehicle was studied and proved to be manufactured of materials
unknown as to source and usage in this country. In time, he
says, this and other UFOs provided technologies which were
"worked into the commercial world via front companies."
Incidentally he vouches for the fact that this has proven to be
a valuable contribution to U.S. aircraft design and other
commercial products.

After the Roswell incident, the Air Force replied to reporters'
inquiries that this was all part of research using weather
balloons and other equipment. Corso and hundreds of others who
work or have worked in secret defense and scientific agencies,
are willing to swear under oath that alien craft are repeatedly
penetrating our airspace.

Whenever the military agencies are asked to look into this
matter further, the answer is always the same - "We do
not investigate UFOs."

Contact:

McClendon News Service
202-483-3791
202-328-1818 fax






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               Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947

From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net>
Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2000 06:25:17 -0700
Fwd Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2000 11:40:39 -0400
Subject: Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947


 >Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 18:00:19 -0700
 >From: Royce J. Myers III <ufowatchdog@earthlink.net>
 >Subject: Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 07:12:52 -0800
 >>From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman@psln.com>
 >>Subject: Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >I agree that banning Ed would be silly. Though Ed can't back his
 >story at all, this is nothing new in UFO circles. The MP story
 >doesn't have a shred of evidence or verification, but it is not
 >worthy of banning Ed from the list. However, my bottom line in
 >all of this (for what its worth) is put up or shut up.


Dear Sirs:

Somebody went to the trouble of banning the writings of nearly
every famous shit disturber in history.

I prefer the 'French/English Plan'.

This is to allow Ed, and anyone else with an unpopular view, a
sort of 'Hyde Park' visibility.

This fills two proper needs!

*1) We have a doofus or two to distract us from our own faults.

*2) They don't block traffic with their goofy signs or pediddle
small change.

That is a small price or two to pay for a little bit of
discussion. As others have noted, the [Delete] key is only
centimeters away!

*Personally, I think Ed's off his rocker. I hope he takes no
personal offense at my own personal opinions.

Best Wishes

- Larry Hatch


PS: I shall never forget my first visit to Hyde Park, in London!

That was in 1965. The majority of speakers then were East Indian
mystics with lots of missing fingers. The majority of these dis-
figurements appeared to be due to leprosy.

This is a tough way to promote a new religion, as each of these
fellows was attempting to do.

 >>I've been relating the true facts of this matter
 >>to the UpDates list and will continue to do so as
 >>long as Errol gives me the space.

Just plain goofy. Count your fingers. Bless nature and/or
creation. -LH







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   Apr > Apr 15

                    Re: TMP News: Weekly Briefing 4.12.00

From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@rocler.qc.ca>
Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2000 12:53:25 -0700
Fwd Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2000 13:01:22 -0400
Subject: Re: TMP News: Weekly Briefing 4.12.00


 >Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2000 00:25:30 -0400 (EDT)
 >From: Joe Murgia <Ufojoe1@aol.com>
 >Subject: Re: TMP News: Weekly Briefing 4.12.00
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca


 >>>>Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 09:12:25 -0500
 >>>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >>>>Subject: Re: TMP News: Weekly Briefing 4.12.00
 >>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

Hello Joe and List

<snip>

 >I don't understand why some of you must be so sarcastic
 >sometimes.

<snip>

Don't ask.

<snip>

 >Our gov't would never test anything on the public without
 >telling them. Would they? They wouldn't ever lie to us. Would
 >they? They don't have a history of doing similar things. Do
 >they?

<snip>

Unfortunately no.

To name just a few:

The Tuskegee Experience:

"Researchers in 1932 lured 399 black subjects in Macon County,
Ala., with the promise of free health care - then withheld
treatment for 40 years, carefully monitoring as the disease
claimed its victims. By 1972, 28 men had died of syphilis, 100
others were dead of related complications, at least 40 wives had
been infected and 19 children had contracted the disease at
birth."

http://www.athensnewspapers.com/1997/051797/0517.clinton.html

Note that this project went over 40 years.


The Radiation Story No One Would Touch:

"the feeding of radioactive substances to pregnant women and
mentally retarded students, about the unethical irradiation of
workers, soldiers, medical patients, and prison inmates, and
about the government's own internal fears that these experiments
had 'a little of the Buchenwald touch.' "

http://www.cjr.org/year/94/2/radiation.asp


The Nevada experiments on American soldiers:

"In 1945 the U.S. dropped atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki
Japan.....In 1951 the U.S. dropped atomic bombs on or near
American soldiers in Nevada. This activity continued for 12
years at The Nevada Test Site, during the atmospheric nuclear
testing period that ended in 1963."

http://www.angelfire.com/tx/atomicveteran/exposed.html


One could also try:

"Duck And Cover(Up): U.S. Radiation Testing On Humans"

(http://www.saunalahti.fi/~makako/mind/radiatio.htm)

und etc.

The list goes on and on.

Can you imagine what is _not_ known?

One paradox:

Government secrecy is the _only_ problem of Ufology. Yet, when
people come up with _proof_ of Government foul play at the
expense of public security, some ufologists want them silenced.

Regards,

Serge Salvaille








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   Apr > Apr 15

                  Re: Arnold Pelicans - Voyager Newsletter

From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2000 13:27:51 -0400 (EDT)
Fwd Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2000 13:33:44 -0400
Subject: Re: Arnold Pelicans - Voyager Newsletter


 >From: Brad Sparks <RB47Expert@aol.com>
 >Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 20:33:54 -0400 (EDT)
 >Fwd Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 10:54:46 -0400
 >Subject: Re: Arnold Pelicans - Voyager Newsletter

 >[Non-Subscriber Post --ebk]

 >In his second known interview, on the afternoon of June 25,
 >1947, Arnold told the Chicago Tribune "I counted nine of them as
 >they _disappeared_behind_ the peak of Mount Ranier [Rainier]."
 >Arnold repeated this observation many times describing a
 >prominent peak of Mt. Rainier which even Easton concedes must be
 >Little Tahoma Peak, which lay behind Rainier's summit from
 >Arnold's position. Arnold's only known _drawing_ of the objects'
 >flight path (see retouched version on the cover of IUR Mar/Apr
 >95) apparently drawn in late June 1947, shows the objects coming
 >out from behind Rainier and heading toward Mt. Adams.
 >Occasionally, Arnold seemed to refer to the objects passing to
 >the west of Mt. Rainier and seeing their outlines or "images"
 >"against" the snow but avoided ever using the words "in front
 >of" the mountain or snow, and these comments are always out of
 >chronological order in his narratives or seriously truncated,
 >suggesting confusion of some sort.

Brad,

I would say we are in complete agreement that James Easton's
pelican theory is preposterous and that he plays dodge ball with
the criticisms of it.  However, I do not agree with your
assessment of where Arnold placed the objects relative to Mt.
Rainier.  Except for the Chicago Tribune article, the quotes
always have Arnold placing the objects in front of Rainier, not
behind it.

For starters, had they disappeared behind Rainier proper, Arnold
would have undoubtably used Rainier as a much more accurate
gauge of distance rather than some lesser feature.  Instead he
repeatedly referred to them momentarily disappearing behind some
subpeak.

Another point is that Rainier is very broad even up at the 11000
foot level of Little Tahoma.  We're talking 5 miles of solid
mountain, probably more, between Arnold and the objects. Even at
the upper limit of Arnold's calculated speed of  1700 mph, it
would still take a little over 2 seconds to cover each mile.
Each of the objects would  have been lost from sight for at
least 10 seconds.  But Arnold's statements suggest that he lost
sight of them for much briefer periods of time.

The Chicago Tribune statement could be a simple misquote by some
reporter.  It would be very similar to other quoted Arnold
statements by changing a "the" to an "a" as in "I counted nine
of them as they disappeared behind _A_ peak of Mount Ranier."

Little Tehoma on the backside of Rainier would not have been
visible from Arnold's position.  His plane was lower in
elevation than the peak and slopes of the main mass of Rainier
in his line of sight would have obscured the peak behind.

There are a number of possible small subpeaks on the west side
Rainier (visible side of mountain) which  flying objects could
have flown behind and been momentarily lost from view.

The preponderance of evidence indicates that Arnold was speaking
of objects that passed in front of Rainier.

David Rudiak







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                    Re: TMP News: Weekly Briefing 4.12.00

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2000 12:37:21 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2000 13:48:34 -0400
Subject: Re: TMP News: Weekly Briefing 4.12.00


 >Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2000 12:53:25 -0700
 >From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@rocler.qc.ca>
 >Subject: Re: TMP News: Weekly Briefing 4.12.00
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2000 00:25:30 -0400 (EDT)
 >>From: Joe Murgia <Ufojoe1@aol.com>
 >>Subject: Re: TMP News: Weekly Briefing 4.12.00
 >>To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >>>>>Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 09:12:25 -0500
 >>>>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >>>>>Subject: Re: TMP News: Weekly Briefing 4.12.00
 >>>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Our gov't would never test anything on the public without
 >>telling them. Would they? They wouldn't ever lie to us. Would
 >>they? They don't have a history of doing similar things. Do
 >>they?

All governments, including democratic ones, misbehave at times.
We all know that, and sooner or later, that behavior gets
exposed and often -- though not often enough -- those
responsible are punished. To go from there, though, to conjuring
up paranoid -- and thoroughly unfalsifiable -- conspiracy
theories is simply to cast off one's ties from reality.

Conspiracyphilia, of course, is a worldwide disease, but it
certainly has its share of sufferers in the United States.
There is a good deal of literature examining the phenomenon in
American history.  I particularly recommend Richard Hofstadter's
classic The Paranoid Style in American Politics.

 >To name just a few:

What do any of these have to do with conspiracy theory? I think
they make my point: that obsession with fantasy theories about
the gummint distracts attention from real social problems and
abuses.  If I were a conspiracy theorist, I'd argue that
theories of imagined conspiracies are concocted to distract
people's attentions from the less extravagant and far-reaching,
but still troubling, abuses that really do occur.

Otherwise, the argument is the functional equivalent of saying
that since scientists are sometimes wrong, the earth must be
flat.

 >Government secrecy is the _only_ problem of Ufology.

You're joking, right?

 >Yet, when
 >people come up with _proof_ of Government foul play at the
 >expense of public security, some ufologists want them silenced.

Are you implying that these alleged ufologists -- whose
existence you haven't documented -- are part of the gummint
conspiracy? Let's have some names here.

Jerry Clark








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   Apr > Apr 16

               Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947

From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net>
Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2000 13:16:27 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2000 08:07:13 -0400
Subject: Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947


 >From: Ed Gehrman
 >Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 14:27:52 -0800
 >Fwd Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2000 08:15:21 -0400
 >Subject: Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947

 >>Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 12:43:09 -0500
 >>To: Roger Evans
 >>Subject: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947
 >>To: updates@sympatico.ca

Previously, I wrote:

 >>What is the difference between Ed talking to an alien or an
 >>unknown MP if Ed, and Ed alone, is the only one to have contact
 >>with the party in question? It's exactly the same thing. As a
 >>result, Ed is asking for a certain amount of skepticism and, in
 >>some cases, outright rejection.

To which Ed replied:

 >Of course I realized that there would be a certain amount of
 >skepticism; I just didn't realize that it would dominate the
 >conversation.

Ed, you're a grown man. Certainly you must have realized that
there really couldn't be any acceptance for your claims without
some kind of proof or reasonable evidence to support them. Did
you really think that we'd all just nod our heads in unison and
buy everything that's presented to us? The very purpose of this
list is to _ask_questions_. Your inability to answer them
satisfactory is not our problem. To claim surprise at the course
this discussion has taken is a bit much, don't you think?

Continuing, Ed wrote:

 >I'm convinced we're reading a true account. The MP is trying to
 >figure out ways to convince you that he is who he says he is and
 >that his story is the correct version of events.

As I pointed out before, you've already made up your mind.
Regarding your discontent at our disbelief, I wrote:

 >>However, I never whined that people were treating me unfairly or
 >>that I had been "trashed" on the list.

Ed replied:

 >Those are not my words. That's the MP telling why he wanted to
 >keep me on track. He wants the story to come out. I have
 >mentioned this several times but it seems to be ingored: these
 >are the MP's own words, not mine.

We aren't ignoring you, Ed. We just don't believe you. And the
truth is you really can't blame us. You have offered us nothing
to back up your claims.

Moving on, Ed declared:

 >I have had only one problem with the discussion that has taken
 >place on the UpDates list: it ends too soon, way too soon.
 >Errol never gives us enough time. This issue (the validity of
 >the AA) needs to be settled once and for all and it may take
 >some time. These are complicated issues, and need time and
 >space.

 >The many critics of the AA will not assume responsibility for
 >their charges once these charges have been disproved.

They've never been disproved, Ed. Repeating your claim a million
times won't make it true.

Finally, Ed opined:

 >By that time the list becomes exhausted and Errol puts a stop
 >to it. The detractors of the AA have yet to provide a list of
 >the important evidence they think proves the AA hoaxed or
 >faked.

Ed this almost borders on insulting. This whole affair was
started by you. You are the one making claims. You are the one
with the secret info. You are the one that has already been
convinced. Errol has been more than patient in giving you a
platform to try and convince us of your claims. To this date you
have simply wasted that time by repeating the mantra that you
always use which is "Prove me wrong."

At this point, I have only one final question to ask you; one
that you seem to keep avoiding; either because you don't
understand the concept or you just don't want to deal with it.
Please answer it with a simple "yes" or "no".

No histrionics; do declarations about people not being "open
minded", etc.

Just "yes" or "no".

This is it:

Do you understand that it is not _our_ responsibility to prove
you wrong but, rather, _your_ responsibility to prove you are
right?

As far as I am concerned, your answer to that one, simple
question should be the fairest gauge of all as to whether EBK
should continue this thread.

Later,

Roger Evans









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   Apr > Apr 16

                    Re: TMP News: Weekly Briefing 4.12.00

From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net>
Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2000 13:47:29 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2000 08:13:28 -0400
Subject: Re: TMP News: Weekly Briefing 4.12.00


 >From: Jerome Clark
 >Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2000 12:37:21 -0500
 >Fwd Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2000 13:48:34 -0400
 >Subject: Re: TMP News: Weekly Briefing 4.12.00

 >>Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2000 12:53:25 -0700
 >>From: Serge Salvaille
 >>Subject: Re: TMP News: Weekly Briefing 4.12.00
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto

Previously, Joe Murgia wrote:

 >>>Our gov't would never test anything on the public without
 >>>telling them. Would they? They wouldn't ever lie to us. Would
 >>>they? They don't have a history of doing similar things. Do
 >>>they?

To which Serge gave excellent examples of such
abuse. (see previous post)

Jerry replies:

 >All governments, including democratic ones, misbehave at times.
 >We all know that, and sooner or later, that behavior gets
 >exposed and often -- though not often enough -- those
 >responsible are punished.

<snip>

 >What do any of these have to do with conspiracy theory? I
 >think they make my point: that obsession with fantasy theories
 >about the gummint distracts attention from real social
 >problems and abuses.  If I were a conspiracy theorist, I'd
 >argue that theories of imagined conspiracies are concocted to
 >distract people's attentions from the less extravagant and
 >far-reaching, but still troubling, abuses that really do
occur.

 >Otherwise, the argument is the functional equivalent of saying
 >that since scientists are sometimes wrong, the earth must be
 >flat.

Hi, Jerry.

I've said before that I consider paranoia to be simply a
heightened state of awareness. ;)

However, I must ask - At what point do you draw a line in the
sand and say, "This _must_ be a conspiracy!"?

I think Serge's examples point the true nature of conspiracies
yet you seem to see them as anomalies. Well, you're right. They
should be anomalies. But more importantly, none of these people
thought they'd get caught which is why there were so many people
involved. Do you really think that the Nazi's would have treated
prisoners as bad as they did if the Nazi's weren't convinced
they were going to win the war? I find the authorities involved
in Serge's examples guilty of no less crimes.

The examples Serge pointed about Tuskegee and the secret
radiation experiments are the very definition of a "conspiracy";
a group of people engaging in secret, underhanded activities for
personal gain with no consideration for the well being of those
affected. We only know about them because they got caught. Is it
your position that because they were caught the conspiracy
didn't exist? Do you feel that all underhanded acts are
detectable and, if not detected, then they don't exist?

The word "conspiracy" isn't the name of a mythical beast. The
named was coined out of a need to describe the kind of acts that
Serge presented as examples. This seems so clear to me but you
feel the term doesn't apply. Why?

Just what do _you_ consider a real conspiracy?

Later,

Roger Evans







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   Apr > Apr 16

               Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947

From: Roger Prokic <rprokic@pobox.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2000 12:56:00 -0600
Fwd Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2000 08:23:33 -0400
Subject: Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947


 >Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 07:12:52 -0800
 >From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman@psln.com>
 >Subject: Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 18:01:46 -0600
 >>From: Roger Prokic <rprokic@earthlink.net>
 >>Subject: Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947
 >>To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >>I think Ed should be banned from the list!

 >Roger and list,

 >My submissions to this list concerning the MP's story, the AA or
 >any other topic I've written about are not hoaxes or fakes or
 >untruthful in any way. I may have been wrong on occasion but who
 >hasn't. I can assure all that any mistakes I make are not
 >intentional.

 >I've been relating the true facts of this matter to the updates
 >list and will continue to do so as long as Errol gives me the
 >space.

I don't have a problem with your posts regarding the MP story,
etc. I don't quite understand how the MP's story can add any
credibility to the AA fable. The AA in my opinion could be a
gov't production used as disinfo regarding the Roswell event. I
don't believe any cameraman could have held the film this long -
since Roswell was regarded as a top secret to the gov't.

I don't understand either how you can be so faithful to the AA
Santilli production.


Roger Prokic
Principal RF Systems Engineer
Ball Aerospace & Technologies Corp.
Boulder, Colorado USA
-=[ sent from a Palm IIIxe computer & Multimail Pro v3.1C ]=-






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               Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947

From: Roger Prokic <rprokic@pobox.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2000 12:56:00 -0600
Fwd Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2000 08:25:41 -0400
Subject: Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947


 >Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 10:59:06 -0400
 >From: Kelly Peterborough <kellymcg@netcom.ca>
 >Subject: Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >Dear Errol,

 >I find the recent talk of banning Ed from UFO UpDates disturing.

I really was kidding when I mentioned "kick Ed off the list".  I
wanted to see the reaction of people on the list - knowing that
Errol probably would never do such a thing.

I do believe in Freedom of Speech as long as no one screams fire
in a theatre.

I simply don't believe in Ed's MP story. I think he fabricated
the whole thing either as an April Fool's joke or an attempt to
continue discussion on the AA following threats from Errol to
discontinue any more talk on it.  Or he could be taken my a
hoaxer - which is also a probable scenario, knowing how Ed
believes in AA almost like a new religion.

I just don't believe one word from this MP.



Roger Prokic
Principal RF Systems Engineer
Ball Aerospace & Technologies Corp.
Boulder, Colorado USA
-=[ sent from a Palm IIIxe computer & Multimail Pro v3.1C ]=-






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               Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947

From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2000 15:08:39 -0400 (EDT)
Fwd Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2000 08:28:44 -0400
Subject: Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947


 >From: Brad Sparks <RB47Expert@aol.com>
 >Date: 13 April 2000 01:37
 >Fwd Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 17:03:54 -0400
 >Subject: Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947


 >>From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman@psln.com>
 >>Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2000 18:40:49 -0800
 >>Subject: Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >><Snip>

 >>He clearly remembers that it was the DOD who told him to keep
 >>quiet. Two men in suits; the CO wasn't there. He had never
 >>heard of the DOD before and therefore it stuck in his mind.

 >>From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman@psln.com>
 >>Date: Sat, 08 Apr 2000
 >>An MP's story Part 2

 ><snip>

 >>When I got back to the base and the guys from Washington talked
 >>to me. They asked me to keep quiet about what I had seen for
 >>the good of the country. I am sure the guys told me DOD.
 >>Because at that time I had never heard of it.

 >I have to agree with James Easton here on the NME/DoD error. I
 >think it's a fatal flaw in the story. It's the kind of mistake
 >that someone in the 90's would make because they didn't know
 >what those back in the late 40's knew and haven't done enough
 >research to fake it perfectly. Ed Gehrman's postings on the MP's
 >story (see below) relate that the MP says the "DoD" designation
 >"stuck in his mind" along with a July 30, 1947, date and this
 >"DoD" label also applied to his questioning by alleged "DoD"
 >representatives which he found strange because he had never
 >heard of it before. Well, as Easton points out, the "DoD" didn't
 >exist until Aug 10, 1949. It was the National Military
 >Establishment (NME) from Sept 1947 till that date in 1949. Until
 >_contemporary_ documents from 1947 are found showing that "DoD"
 >was used officially or even unofficially, no later memoirs of
 >high officials or anyone else prove the contrary especially when
 >they were writing retrospectively and not asserting that they
 >had spoken to agents in 1947 identifying themselves as "DoD" or
 >had seen seals in July 1947 reading "DoD."

Brad,

I think your position or Jame's Easton position on this to be
quite reasonable.  There are other aspects of the alleged MP's
story that smell a bit off as well.  On the other hand, I hardly
consider the DOD part of the MP's story a "fatal flaw."

There are formal or legal designations, the type you would see
on documents, and then there are informal ones, what people
might commonly use, but which aren't official.

As I mentioned earlier, e.g., the Joint Chiefs of Staff were
also not an official, legal body until the passage of the
National Security Act of 1947.  Yet they were commonly called
exactly that and for some time prior to its passage.

Truman's original preference of name for the post-war unified
command, dating back to legislation introduced in Dec. 1945, was
the Department of National  Defense.  In his memoirs, he also
commonly referred to the War Dept. and NME as the defense
department or department of defense.  I suspect others did as
well, although it would take a bit of time to research this.  A
good starting place might be the New York Times Index for
related stories prior to the official formation of the NME.


David Rudiak








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               Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947

From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2000 15:10:52 -0400 (EDT)
Fwd Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2000 08:33:03 -0400
Subject: Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947


 >Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 18:01:46 -0600
 >From: Roger Prokic <rprokic@earthlink.net>
 >Subject: Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >>Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 09:07:38 -0400 (EDT)
 >>From: Tom Carey <TCarey1947@aol.com>
 >>Subject: Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947
 >>To: updates@sympatico.ca

<snip>

 >>After accusing me of not showing due respect, Ed, of course,
 >>would not provide the name, saying instead that he passed along
 >>my request to his source for a response which, of course, I am
 >>still awaiting.

 >>This story is one of two things: (1) an April Fool's joke [the
 >>story, I believe, first made its appearance on this list on
 >>April 1st], or (2) an attempt by supporters to breathe life back
 >>into the Santilli hoax [e.g., six-fingered aliens, and the
 >>like]. Nothing more. Nothing less.

 >Agreed. I think Ed should be banned from the list!

 >Roger Prokic

Ed is entitled to his opinions. Ed has appeared to be truthful
about the whole matter because he admits that he never in fact
met this purported person.

So for all anyone knows, including Ed it could be a 15 year old
kid, or a 30 year old man having a good laugh on Ed's part.

We know that Ed has put his entire faith into the AA film, and
anybody that tells him a story that tends to support his belief
in AA gains instant high marks with him. Said in other words,
most if not all of Ed's world is examined around (because of his
total belief in) the context of the AA.

In that regard, everybody just knows that absolutely everything
you see and read on the internet is an absolute truth never to
be doubted. :)

So why not believe an email from a person you have never met,
but reenforces your theorys.

Cheers,
Robert







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   Apr > Apr 16

               Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947

From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman@psln.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2000 11:40:08 -0800
Fwd Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2000 08:34:42 -0400
Subject: Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947


 >Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 18:28:00 -0400
 >From: Steven W. Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
 >Subject: Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

<snip>

 >If the testimony from the MP is to be
 >considered, it must have some test to prove it's veracity, or
 >the debate over it's validity is likely to be very short indeed.

Yes I agree. I have nothing more to say about this topic for now
although I will still try to answer questions.

We'll do our best to find some method to verify the MP's story
in a way that doesn't reveal his identity. He does have more to
say but I'm afraid that it will fall on deaf ears if there isn't
more proof.

Ed







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                    Re: TMP News: Weekly Briefing 4.12.00

From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@rocler.qc.ca>
Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2000 16:07:38 -0700
Fwd Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2000 08:36:35 -0400
Subject: Re: TMP News: Weekly Briefing 4.12.00


 >Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2000 12:37:21 -0500
 >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >Subject: Re: TMP News: Weekly Briefing 4.12.00
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2000 12:53:25 -0700
 >>From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@rocler.qc.ca>
 >>Subject: Re: TMP News: Weekly Briefing 4.12.00
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>>Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2000 00:25:30 -0400 (EDT)
 >>>From: Joe Murgia <Ufojoe1@aol.com>
 >>>Subject: Re: TMP News: Weekly Briefing 4.12.00
 >>>To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >>>>>>Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 09:12:25 -0500
 >>>>>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >>>>>>Subject: Re: TMP News: Weekly Briefing 4.12.00
 >>>>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>>Our gov't would never test anything on the public without
 >>>telling them. Would they? They wouldn't ever lie to us. Would
 >>>they? They don't have a history of doing similar things. Do
 >>>they?

 >All governments, including democratic ones, misbehave at times.
 >We all know that, and sooner or later, that behavior gets
 >exposed and often -- though not often enough -- those
 >responsible are punished.

<snip>

"Sooner or later" implies "always". It seems you have unlimited
confidence in the power of democracy.

 >To go from there, though, to conjuring
 >up paranoid -- and thoroughly unfalsifiable -- conspiracy
 >theories is simply to cast off one's ties from reality.

Agreed. But you seem to be the one conjuring conspiracy
theories.

There is a great difference between denunciation of foul play
and Conspiracyphilia.

To oppose Government mishaps is, I believe, your duty as a
citizen. In case you cannot imagine the difficulty of this duty,
I suggest you reflect on all the possible trouble one must go
through, beginning with administrative inertia and, sometimes,
hostility from fellow citizens who love to sleep tight.

<snip>

 >>To name just a few:

 >What do any of these have to do with conspiracy theory?

My point exactly. It has nothing to do with it.

As I said, one's duty and Conspiracyphilia are two different
beasts.

I wholeheartedly subscribe to your Conspiracyphilia concept.

You seem to be confusing two issues though: paranoia is a mental
illness. It mostly shows, among other things, the incapacity of
the individual to adapt to hostility.

You seems to be advocating the fact that since paranoiacs are
crazy, hostility does not exist in society.

<snip>

 >>Government secrecy is the _only_ problem of Ufology.

 >You're joking, right?

No.

The day governments lift the veil on UFOs, you're out of a job.

<snip>

 >>Yet, when
 >>people come up with _proof_ of Government foul play at the
 >>expense of public security, some ufologists want them silenced.

 >Are you implying that these alleged ufologists -- whose
 >existence you haven't documented -- are part of the gummint
 >conspiracy? Let's have some names here.

How can I imply that since there is no conspiracy?

Names?

I know of no ufologists that are part of any gummint conspiracy.

Do you?

Serge Salvaille







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                    Re: TMP News: Weekly Briefing 4.12.00

From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2000 20:01:11 -0400 (EDT)
Fwd Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2000 08:44:56 -0400
Subject: Re: TMP News: Weekly Briefing 4.12.00


 >From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@rocler.qc.ca>
 >Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2000 12:53:25 -0700
 >Fwd Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2000 13:01:22 -0400
 >Subject: Re: TMP News: Weekly Briefing 4.12.00

<snip>

 >The Nevada experiments on American soldiers:

 >In 1951 the U.S. dropped atomic bombs on or near
 >American soldiers in Nevada. This activity continued for 12
 >years at The Nevada Test Site, during the atmospheric nuclear
 >testing period that ended in 1963."

 >http://www.angelfire.com/tx/atomicveteran/exposed.html

While the story about how these soldiers were irresponsibly,
even criminally, exposed to radiation during these tests ought
to be particularly disturbing to every American, the claim that
atomic bombs were dropped _on_ troops for 12 years beginning in
1951 is false.

Big difference between _near_ and _on_, although it certainly is
not hard to forgive this guy for being imprecise in his choice
of words. Knowing the difference, we don't have to repeat it.

 >Can you imagine what is _not_ known?

Sorry, Serge, but this is an Argumentum ad ignorantiam, an
"argument from ignorance". The fallacy occurs because it's
argued that something must be true, simply because it hasn't
been proved false.

Clear skies,
Bob Young









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   Apr > Apr 16

                       New Cydonia Mound Imaged by MGS

From: Lan Fleming <apollo18@swbell.net>
Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2000 18:46:15 -0600
Fwd Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2000 08:46:28 -0400
Subject: New Cydonia Mound Imaged by MGS


Mound E, one of the landforms that figured prominently in Dr.
Horace Crater's study of "mounds" in the Cydonia region of Mars,
was captured in the batch of MGS Cydonia images released by
Malin Space Science Systems earlier this month. Dr. Mark
Carlotto has a good rotational animation of it at:

http://www.psrw.com/~markc/Articles/April_2000/others.html

Mac Tonnies has also posted a full-resolution section I took
from the MGS image at:

http://www.geocities.com/macbot/imperative4.html

with some discussion of some other interesting objects imaged by
MGS, including another one of the mounds.

Mound E has a bright triangular facet facing the sun, with a
straight trench or groove running along its base. Most of the
mounds that have been imaged to date by MGS appear to be unusual
objects. Although none have sufficient symmetry to conclude they
are artificial, the general shapes of 4 out of the 6 imaged by
MGS clearly set them apart as a class from ordinary hills. Only
two of the 6 lacked any indication of symmetry.

Crater selected the landforms he called "mounds" not because
there was anything anomalous in their appearance in the Viking
images, but because they were generally higher albedo and had
better defined perimeters than other landforms near the larger
"City" landforms. His results indicated that the ordering of the
spatial arrangement of the mounds was well above chance. There
was very little in the low-resolution Viking images to suggest
such small objects would appear unusual at the higher resolution
of the MGS camera. The implication of Crater's study was really
the only thing that supported such a possibility. (If objects
really show a nonrandom spatial distribution, then it would be
expected that they would not be ordinary hills.) I think the MGS
images have validated Dr. Crater's work to a significant extent.
(Crater is a profesor of physics at the University of Tennesee
Space Instute, and co-authored a paper on the mound geometry
with Professor Stan McDaniel of Sonoma State University, CA,
that appeared in the Summer, '99 issue of the Journal of
Scientific Exploration in the summer '99 issue.)

I've seen quite a few MGS images in the past two years, and
nothing I've seen yet compares with the variety of unusual
landforms in Cydonia. I'm not at all certain that we are looking
at artificial structures in Cydonia. But I am now convinced that
what has already been found by MGS is enough to ensure that as
soon as humans establish a permanent presence on Mars and the
ability to travel where they wish on its surface, Cydonia will
be one of the first places they visit.







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               Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947

From: Roger Prokic <rprokic@pobox.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2000 21:59:00 -0600
Fwd Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2000 08:48:56 -0400
Subject: Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947


 >Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 12:43:09 -0500
 >From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net>
 >Subject: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >>Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947

 >>From: William Sawers
 >>Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 17:13:49 +1200
 >>Fwd Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 09:02:22 -0400
 >>Subject: Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947

 >>>Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 18:01:46 -0600
 >>>From: Roger Prokic
 >>>Subject: Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947
 >>>To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >>>>Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 09:07:38 -0400 (EDT)
 >>>>From: Tom Carey
 >>>>Subject: Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947
 >>>>To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >Previously, Tom Carey wrote:

 >>>>After accusing me of not showing due respect, Ed, of course,
 >>>>would not provide the name, saying instead that he passed along
 >>>>my request to his source for a response which, of course, I am
 >>>>still awaiting.

 >>>>This story is one of two things: (1) an April Fool's joke [the
 >>>>story, I believe, first made its appearance on this list on
 >>>>April 1st], or (2) an attempt by supporters to breathe life back
 >>>>into the Santilli hoax [e.g., six-fingered aliens, and the
 >>>>like]. Nothing more. Nothing less.

 >To which Roger Prokic replied:

 >>>Agreed. I think Ed should be banned from the list!

 >To which William Sawers responded:

 >>Good God... a little drastic don't you think Roger. If we ban
 >>everyone that disagrees with us, there won't be much of a list
 >>left.

 ><snip>

 >>If Ed was spouting rubbish about certain aliens
 >>that he alone
 >>had contact with and refused to give us the
 >>"good-news" well,
 >>then you may have a case.

 >Hello all...

 >Although Roger and I generally agree on things, I do not feel
 >that Ed should be banned from the list.

I now see that I left off the <g> when I said "kick Ed off the
list".

Ah heck, a little controversy always makes the list reading more
interesting!



Roger Prokic
Principal RF Systems Engineer
Ball Aerospace & Technologies Corp.
Boulder, Colorado USA
-=[ sent from a Palm IIIxe computer & Multimail Pro v3.1C ]=-








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                    Re: TMP News: Weekly Briefing 4.12.00

From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@rocler.qc.ca>
Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2000 10:34:50 -0700
Fwd Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 07:23:29 -0400
Subject: Re: TMP News: Weekly Briefing 4.12.00


 >Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2000 20:01:11 -0400 (EDT)
 >From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >Subject: TMP News: Weekly Briefing 4.12.00
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >>From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@rocler.qc.ca>
 >>Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2000 12:53:25 -0700
 >>Fwd Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2000 13:01:22 -0400
 >>Subject: Re: TMP News: Weekly Briefing 4.12.00

<snip>

 >>The Nevada experiments on American soldiers:

 >>In 1951 the U.S. dropped atomic bombs on or near
 >>American soldiers in Nevada. This activity continued for 12
 >>years at The Nevada Test Site, during the atmospheric nuclear
 >>testing period that ended in 1963."

 >>http://www.angelfire.com/tx/atomicveteran/exposed.html

 >While the story about how these soldiers were irresponsibly,
 >even criminally, exposed to radiation during these tests ought
 >to be particularly disturbing to every American, the claim that
 >atomic bombs were dropped _on_ troops for 12 years beginning in
 >1951 is false.

 >Big difference between _near_ and _on_, although it certainly is
 >not hard to forgive this guy for being imprecise in his choice
 >of words. Knowing the difference, we don't have to repeat it.

OK.  Sorry about that. Let me re-edit this.

"In 1951 the U.S. dropped atomic bombs [...] near American
soldiers in Nevada. This activity continued for 12 years at The
Nevada Test Site, during the atmospheric nuclear testing period
that ended in 1963."

Please note that, although there is a difference in the means,
there is _no_ difference on the intent: nuclear weapon tests on
humans.

Now that you say it, I guess the bombs were not "dropped" but
detonated.

Allow me to add, for the purpose of historical exactitude:

"October 31, 1999

Where I Stand -- Mike O'Callaghan: Wait and they will die

[...]

"The officers were about 2,500 yards away from the experiment, a
mile closer than the nearest troops, according to documents."

"The Veterans Administration created a secret division in 1947
to thwart future claims of servicemen exposed to radiation
during Cold War experiments, according to records released
today."

"Nine officers from all branches of the service volunteered to
experience the 'Simon' blast at 6,000 feet from ground zero.
"All of those officers have died, according to Patricia Broudy,
legislative director for the National Association of Atomic
Veterans."

http://www.lasvegassun.com/sunbin/stories/commentary/1999/oct/31/509489140.html

<snip>

 >>Can you imagine what is _not_ known?

 >Sorry, Serge, but this is an Argumentum ad ignorantiam, an
 >"argument from ignorance". The fallacy occurs because it's
 >argued that something must be true, simply because it hasn't
 >been proved false.

Let me re-edit that too Bob:

Can you imagine what _you_ _don't_ _know_ ?

This is called sticking your neck out of the sand.  The fallacy
occurs because it's argued that something cannot be true simply
because you don't see it.

Let me add that the purpose of my post was to answer Joe's
ironic observation.  I guess I made my point.

No reason to pick here and there in the dish and, to use a
French expression, "trip on the flowers of the carpet".

Regards,

Serge Salvaille







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                    Re: TMP News: Weekly Briefing 4.12.00

From: Joe Murgia <Ufojoe1@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2000 11:42:48 -0400 (EDT)
Fwd Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 07:25:23 -0400
Subject: Re: TMP News: Weekly Briefing 4.12.00


 >Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2000 20:01:11 -0400 (EDT)
 >From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >Subject: TMP News: Weekly Briefing 4.12.00
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >>Serge Wrote:

 >>Can you imagine what is _not_ known?

 >Bob wrote:

 >Sorry, Serge, but this is an Argumentum ad ignorantiam, an
 >"argument from ignorance". The fallacy occurs because it's
 >argued that something must be true, simply because it hasn't
 >been proved false.

 >Clear skies,
 >Bob Young


Well then, Jerry's argument or statement about people being
"looney-tunery" & "conspiracy cranks" is also based on argument
from ignorance. These people may turn out to be wrong or they
may be right. There's no way to tell right now. I posted my
message because I wanted you to keep an open mind to the
possibility of chemtrails being some sort of gov't test. The
theories going around the net may be unproven but they're not
"looney-tunery" and most of the people are NOT "conspiracy
cranks". Jerry has no knowledge about whether the chemtrails are
for real or not so a simple statement like, "You don't have
enough evidence yet" would have sufficed. Name calling is
usually reserved for the skeptics and debunkers of ufology.

Name calling on this list is so common. It's the main reason I
don't even bother to reply to any posts. I now regret even
getting involved in this one.

Nonetheless, there _are_ some great posters on this list and I
get a lot of information from it. Thanks to Errol. (And Jerry &
Nick too, at times.)

Joe







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                    Re: TMP News: Weekly Briefing 4.12.00

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2000 10:45:50 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 07:27:16 -0400
Subject: Re: TMP News: Weekly Briefing 4.12.00


 >Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2000 16:07:38 -0700
 >From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@rocler.qc.ca>
 >Subject: Re: TMP News: Weekly Briefing 4.12.00
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2000 12:37:21 -0500
 >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >>Subject: Re: TMP News: Weekly Briefing 4.12.00
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>>Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2000 12:53:25 -0700
 >>>From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@rocler.qc.ca>
 >>>Subject: Re: TMP News: Weekly Briefing 4.12.00
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>>>Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2000 00:25:30 -0400 (EDT)
 >>>>From: Joe Murgia <Ufojoe1@aol.com>
 >>>>Subject: Re: TMP News: Weekly Briefing 4.12.00
 >>>>To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >>>>>>>Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 09:12:25 -0500
 >>>>>>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >>>>>>>Subject: Re: TMP News: Weekly Briefing 4.12.00
 >>>>>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>>>Our gov't would never test anything on the public without
 >>>>telling them. Would they? They wouldn't ever lie to us. Would
 >>>>they? They don't have a history of doing similar things. Do
 >>>>they?

 >>All governments, including democratic ones, misbehave at times.
 >>We all know that, and sooner or later, that behavior gets
 >>exposed and often -- though not often enough -- those
 >>responsible are punished.

 >"Sooner or later" implies "always". It seems you have unlimited
 >confidence in the power of democracy.

Misdeeds do get exposed -- sometimes at the time of their
occurrence, sometimes soon afterwards, more rarely long
afterwards.  But they do get exposed.  And that is one of the
things that separate democracies from police states.

 >>To go from there, though, to conjuring
 >>up paranoid -- and thoroughly unfalsifiable -- conspiracy
 >>theories is simply to cast off one's ties from reality.

 >Agreed. But you seem to be the one conjuring conspiracy
 >theories.

Huh?

 >There is a great difference between denunciation of foul play
 >and Conspiracyphilia.

The chemtrails fantasy is, as Nick indicated, a conspiracy
theory by definition.  It implies an operation so vast that it
does not qualify as a misdeed, typically confined to a small
operation and a finite number of players.  I am sorry to see
that you have not addressed in this issue.

 >>What do any of these have to do with conspiracy theory?

 >My point exactly. It has nothing to do with it.

Then why do you bring these things up in the context of
conspiracy theory?

 >>>Government secrecy is the _only_ problem of Ufology.

 >>You're joking, right?

 >No.

 >The day governments lift the veil on UFOs, you're out of a job.

Fine with me.  I have plenty of other interests I'd rather be
pursuing anyway.  That aside, what does my -- or, for that
matter, your -- employment have to do with anything?

Whether there is or is not government secrecy re UFOs (my
feelings on the subject generally depend on which side of the
bed I get from on a given day), ufology has many, many problems.
Blaming the gummint for ufology's ills is just plain silly.

Jerry Clark










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                    Re: TMP News: Weekly Briefing 4.12.00

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2000 11:15:26 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 07:29:02 -0400
Subject: Re: TMP News: Weekly Briefing 4.12.00


 >Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2000 13:47:29 -0500
 >From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net>
 >Subject: Re: TMP News: Weekly Briefing 4.12.00
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >>From: Jerome Clark
 >>Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2000 12:37:21 -0500
 >>Fwd Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2000 13:48:34 -0400
 >>Subject: Re: TMP News: Weekly Briefing 4.12.00

 >>>Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2000 12:53:25 -0700
 >>>From: Serge Salvaille
 >>>Subject: Re: TMP News: Weekly Briefing 4.12.00
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto

Hi, Roger,

 >I've said before that I consider paranoia to be simply a
 >heightened state of awareness. ;)

Few things in life scare me as much as paranoids.  Some
paranoids kill people.  Some kill a lot of people.  The guys who
blew up the Federal Building in Oklahoma City were full-blown
conspiracy theorists and ranting paranoids.  If that's a
heightened state of awareness, God grant us all diminished ones.

 >However, I must ask - At what point do you draw a line in the
 >sand and say, "This _must_ be a conspiracy!"?

A misdeed is a limited operation involving a finite number of
players.  A conspiracy theory imagines a vast operation with a
large number of players in all walks of life.  By that
definition, as Nick tried to indicate in his very reasonable
remarks about the chemtrails nonsense (which everybody is now
ignoring), the theory being posed of a vast secret gummint plot
to seed something sinister into the atmosphere is by definition
a conspiracy theory. Beyond that, like other conspiracy
theories, it simply makes no sense and draws in good part on
simple ignorance, not to mention wild conjecture.

 >I think Serge's examples point the true nature of conspiracies
 >yet you seem to see them as anomalies. Well, you're right. They
 >should be anomalies. But more importantly, none of these people
 >thought they'd get caught which is why there were so many people
 >involved. Do you really think that the Nazi's would have treated
 >prisoners as bad as they did if the Nazi's weren't convinced
 >they were going to win the war? I find the authorities involved
 >in Serge's examples guilty of no less crimes.

It's Nazis, Roger, not Nazi's.  What are Nazis doing in this
discussion anyway?  And why is the discussion confined to
gummint?  One could, with as much reason as conspiracy theorists
bring to their discussion of gummint, attack just about any
institution, however seemingly benign (e.g., organized
religion), as a conspiracy whose sole purpose is to perpetrate
evil. No institution in this imperfect world has ever not done
something bad, but we do not define, say, the Catholic Church by
its problems with pedophilic priests.

OF COURSE people who commit crimes think they're going to get by
with it.  When I lived in Chicago during the last days of the
old party machine, I saw a vast and unending parade of aldermen,
judges, cops, and other functionaries get arrested on corruption
charges, tried, convicted, and sentenced to serious jail time. I
remember wondering, why do these guys do this?  Don't they know
they're not going to get by with it?  Somehow, though, through
some mental alchemy they managed to convince themselves that the
law would overlook them..

The crimes -- and that's the right word -- Serge points to
occurred in a wholly different historical context from the one
we live in now.  They occurred either in a time of open
institutional racism (the notorious Tuskegee experiments) or in
the darkest days of the Cold War.  The exposure of these abuses
shocked people, and it is highly unlikely that they will occur
again.

Which is not to say that, all institutions and all humans being
imperfect, other bad things -- it is hard to imagine that they'd
be as bad as these, though -- will occur from time to time, and
they will get exposed, and the necessary reforms will be made.
(A case study in how this works is the CIA pre- and post-the
Church Committee hearings of the 1970s.) As Jefferson said,
liberty requires eternal vigilance.  No one understood the
imperfections of human beings better than the founders of the
American republic. That's why they went to such lengths to put
safeguards -- also known as checks and balances -- into the
political system they were devising.

It's also foolish and near-sighted, let me repeat, to confine
the discussion to gummints; they apply just as well to
corporations, religions, and any large group, every one of which
at some point or other has done something it should not have
done.  I am not a religious man, personally, but I do believe in
original sin.  And it's original sin, not conspiracies, that
we're talking about here.

Jerry Clark










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   Apr > Apr 17

             Re: Notes On 9th Annual International UFO Congress

From: Gildas Bourdais <GBourdais@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2000 13:08:36 -0400 (EDT)
Fwd Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 07:38:40 -0400
Subject: Re: Notes On 9th Annual International UFO Congress


 >Sujet:   UFO UpDate: Notes On 9th Annual International UFO Con
 >Date:    15/04/00 17:06:58 Heure d't Paris Madrid
 >From:    updates@sympatico.ca (UFO UpDates - Toronto)

 >Fichier :  UFOUpDat.txt (52993 octets)
 >Dure du tlchargement (32000 bits/s) : < 1 minute

 >Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2000 11:02:50 -0400
 >From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>
 >Subject: UFO UpDate: Notes On 9th Annual International UFO Congress Convention


 >From UFO UpDates - Toronto

Good evening to all

I am very glad to see the report of Donald Ware on the Laughlin
Congress appear on UFO UpDates. Hopefully, it will restore a
more balanced view  of that very interesting conference ! (even
if there was a questionable speech).

I have to give a few corrections to the report on my own speech.
Mistakes due probably to my imperfect English, because the rest
of the report is very good. Here they are, for the record :

I did not say that the Cometa report was published at the same
time as the book of Philip Corso (published in 1997). It did not
quote Barry Downing.  What I said is that Barry Downing wrote an
interesting article on the Cometa report in the MUFON Journal.

The authors are not all members of the official IHEDN (although
many of them are), and it is a private initiative. The report
was criticized for not mentioning the works of French
ufologists, prominently Aim Michel, but there were many others.

The article 'Why science is becoming interested' was about the
Sturrock workshop, not the Cometa report.

Best regards to all.

Gildas Bourdais








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                    Re: TMP News: Weekly Briefing 4.12.00

From: Paul Anderson <psa@direct.ca>
Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2000 10:53:07 -0700
Fwd Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 07:58:17 -0400
Subject: Re: TMP News: Weekly Briefing 4.12.00


 >Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2000 09:36:44 -0500
 >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >Subject: Re: TMP News: Weekly Briefing 4.12.00
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2000 00:25:30 -0400 (EDT)
 >>From: Joe Murgia <Ufojoe1@aol.com>
 >>Subject: Re: TMP News: Weekly Briefing 4.12.00
 >>To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >>>>>Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 09:12:25 -0500
 >>>>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >>>>>Subject: Re: TMP News: Weekly Briefing 4.12.00
 >>>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>>>Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 17:39:07 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time)
 >>>>From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@yorku.ca>
 >>>>Subject: Re: TMP News: Weekly Briefing 4.12.00
 >>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>>Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 19:58:31 -0700
 >>>From: Paul Anderson <psa@direct.ca>
 >>>Subject: TMP News: Weekly Briefing 4.12.00
 >>>To: psa@direct.ca

 >>>>Since the aircraft which allegedly produce these Chemtrails have
 >>>>to land at some airport somewhere, military or public, and must
 >>>>be loaded with the nasty chemicals or biological agents thought
 >>>>to be released in the air over our heads, I have found no
 >>>>evidence that this is actual taking place here. I was told by a
 >>>>friend at a miltary base that this activity would be very
 >>>>unlikely since someone would have suspected something wrong a
 >>>>long time ago and notified the appropriate authorities or even
 >>>>the press.

 >>>>But you don't understand. The press is part of the conspiracy!
 >>>>So are the "appropriate authorities." Gee, you sure are naive.

 >>>>>Seriously: Your eminently sensible, informed observations about
 >>>>>this latest manifestation of anti-gummint looney-tunery are only
 >>>>>going to get you accused of being an agent of the cover-up.
 >>>>>Doing battle with conspiracy cranks is like taking on a tarbaby.
 >>>>>Jerry Clark

 >>Our gov't would never test anything on the public without
 >>telling them. Would they? They wouldn't ever lie to us. Would
 >>they? They don't have a history of doing similar things. Do
 >>they?

 >Show me a shred of evidence for the sort of massive secret plot
 >necessary to conduct the experiments the conspiranoids are being
 >done with contrails, and we'll talk.  Till then, it's wild,
 >unproved, irresponsible conjecture which caters to the worst
 >instincts of our fellow human beings: the impulse to imagine
 >dangers even as real social ills -- such as world hunger,
 >environmental degredation, bloody civil conflict, and more --
 >are ignored.  This kind of nonsense is not only wrong on the
 >facts but wrong on the moral responsibilities we all share.

 >Jerry Clark


The 'chemtrail'-related posting of mine seems to have touched a
few nerves (!)... this is in response primarily to Jerome
Clark, Nick Balsakas, and GT McCoy.

I do not wish to start a debate on this list, as this is not the
place for it; my TMP News updates are posted on the list as they
cover many various subject matters, including UFO phenomena,
etc.

However, it is clear from these persons' responses that they
have _not_ done much serious investigation of this matter.

To make insulting remarks about William Thomas (Jerry Clark),
and indirectly to myself, whom he has never met (at least I know
he has never met me) is very unprofessional.

This is not a subject talked about only by "conspiracy nuts",
etc.  It is taken seriously by many people here in the
health-related industries and others, because many of them have
also witnessed it.

I myself am not a "conspiracy crank" to use Jerry's terminology.
I am a serious investigator (founder of The Millennium Project,
current Canadian director for Circles Phenomenon Research Canada
and a former Provincial Director for MUFON, among other things,
with an 11 year + background), and consider myself to be
open-minded with a healthy dose of skepticism. Mr. Thomas is a
respected Canadian environmental journalist, with a 30 year
background including being in the Gulf War; he is not a "crank".

This is something I have witnessed myself a number of times now,
up close and personal. How can William's "lack of evidence"
being shown at the lecture be cited by someone who was not even
there?

Almost the entire town of Espanola, Ontario signed a petition
demanding an answer from the Canadian government after they were
repeatedly "sprayed" at low level last year.

The Ministry of Environment in Ontario did its own testing of
samples of rainwater after this and found levels of aluminum
oxides (very toxic) seven times higher than that necessary to
kill fish, as well as chaff (used to jam radar).

Aluminum oxides are also the main ingredient in a patent calling
for the global spraying of the atmosphere (endorsed by some
high-level goverment officials) in an effort to curtail global
warming.

Other samples tested, of a 'gel-like' goo deposited on rooftops,
etc. after some of this activity has found a highly toxic
mixture of bacteria, moulds and fungi as well as things like
restrictor enzymes (used only in labs to do DNA sequencing).

Other 'cobweb-like material' is also sometimes reported falling
to the ground from some of these 'Chemtrails', which is very
similar to the famous 'Angel Hair' from the 70's which these UFO
researchers should be well familiar with.

A friend of mine almost died of acute pneumonia only a few weeks
ago right after coming into direct contact with some of this
material in Washington State. It is in the same areas (which is
across all of the US and Canada now), after another 'Spray Day'
that people start coming down with all manner of upper
respiratory ailments and other acute health problems (including
myself and others I know).

The CBC news here itself reported only a matter of weeks ago
that only about 10% of the 'Flu' being reported in Canada is
_really_ the Flu, the majority of cases are from "unknown
causes", which have not been explained yet. That is why this is
an issue. _If_ this is happening, then we _must_ find out why
and who is responsible. That is part of our "moral
responsibility", to quote Mr. Clark again.

Sure, normal air traffic has increased, which made me initially
more skeptical about all this, and still cautious. I think many
times normal contrails are mis-identified by frightened people
(and William cautioned people about this in his talk). But what
I (and many others around here in Vancouver, and Canada and the
US) have seen does not appear to conform to normal air traffic.

I've lived here most of my life (I'm 33 now) and have never
before seen such large masses of these trails, as large and
low-level as these are, forming perfect parallel patterns and
Xs. I am also receiving similar first-hand reports (and there
are many more besides this) of the same thing being seen over
small, remote towns which are not anywhere near any large
airports or military bases, and the people there have never even
seen normal contrails much before, never mind these.

Is it normal to have up to a dozen or 20 or 30 or more of these
trails suddenly form in perfect parallel rows or literal grid
patterns (forming geometric squares) covering the whole sky,
then to turn into a milky, smoggish-looking haze? I doubt it.

I have seen this kind of thing here now since April of last
year, but never before. Sometimes within the space of only 30-40
minutes or so, or less. It is a periodic thing, not all the time
or too frequently, again not really consistent with "normal" air
traffic patterns.

Also, when some people have been able to watch this with
binoculars for example, what most of them have described, and
some have videotaped, are white, tanker-type or Hercules
aircraft with no markings to identify them doing the spraying,
from nozzles attached to their undersides. The 'Chemtrails' do
not come from the engines or wingtips as with normal contrails.

Also, many observers report that a group of two or three or
sometimes more aircraft will make the Xs and other patterns,
with the same planes flying repeatedly over the same area for up
to several hours.

It is not just a case of a commercial plane passing over, then
another some time later, to sometimes randomly produce these
patterns by chance (sure that could happen and probably does
sometimes, but that is not what people are reporting; the
behaviour of the aircraft involved is described as consistent
and deliberate).

I have also watched normal-looking contrails being made by a
passing jet at the same time as some of these other, much larger
and lower-level ones, and they almost always dissipated within a
minute or so and were gone, as is normally expected. The others
lasted for hours, turning into thick cloud cover.

Normal contrails can linger sometimes in certain conditions, but
so many, in complex patterns, for several hours? And yes, there
are a number of reports now of this activity happening at night,
not just daytime.

Many people who have phoned local air traffic control towers,
etc. have been given ridiculous responses or no answers at all,
including that this is all "delayed Christmas air traffic" (in
spring/summer!) or being referred to the noise ombudsman to
register a complaint (while this phenomenon has nothing to do
with noise, in most cases, people have reported hearing no sound
or aircraft noise at all, something else I have personally
witnessed).

What I would advise is for people to do their own research. How
many eyewitnesses has Jerry or Nick, etc. interviwed or talked
to? How many photos and video clips have they seen (there are
now hundreds of both). Just as in UFO or other research that
they may be involved in, you have to talk to the witnesses and
listen to what it is they are saying, and look at the available
evidence. That is proper investigation, not name-calling and
insults and mockery.

I don't know exactly what is going on, but that kind of approach
doesn't do anyone any good at all. It amazes me how many of
these 'open-minded' researchers have attacked this subject so
carelessly, yet have no trouble at all believing in alien
abductions and such like (I am also open on those topics, but
you get my point). I would expect this from someone like Phillip
Klass, but not seasoned UFO researchers.

There are consistent patterns among the now thousands of
reports. That is worth at least looking into, I think. The
Phoenix  UFO sightings were given added credibility by the large
number of eyewitnesses involved. The same rules of investigation
should apply here.

Paul Anderson
The Millennium Project








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   Apr > Apr 17

                    Re: TMP News: Weekly Briefing 4.12.00

From: Lan Fleming <apollo18@swbell.net>
Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2000 12:51:15 -0600
Fwd Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 08:02:37 -0400
Subject: Re: TMP News: Weekly Briefing 4.12.00


 >Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2000 20:01:11 -0400 (EDT)
 >From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >Subject: TMP News: Weekly Briefing 4.12.00
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >>From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@rocler.qc.ca>
 >>Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2000 12:53:25 -0700
 >>Fwd Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2000 13:01:22 -0400
 >>Subject: Re: TMP News: Weekly Briefing 4.12.00

 ><snip>

 >>The Nevada experiments on American soldiers:

 >>In 1951 the U.S. dropped atomic bombs on or near
 >>American soldiers in Nevada. This activity continued for 12
 >>years at The Nevada Test Site, during the atmospheric nuclear
 >>testing period that ended in 1963."

 >>http://www.angelfire.com/tx/atomicveteran/exposed.html

 >>Can you imagine what is _not_ known?

 >Sorry, Serge, but this is an Argumentum ad ignorantiam, an
 >"argument from ignorance". The fallacy occurs because it's
 >argued that something must be true, simply because it hasn't
 >been proved false.

It isn't an argument from ignorance to infer that government
agencies may have engaged in criminal activities that have not
yet been discovered based on quasi-criminal activities that they
are _known_ to have conducted. It's a very likely possibility.
If someone has been caught bouncing a few checks, would you not
suspect that they also bounced other checks but weren't caught?
And would you call someone ignorant for refusing to accept a
check from that person? Would *you* accept a check from such a
person?

The Houston Chronicle today published an article on the 'secret'
history of how the CIA engineered the overthrow of the
democratically elected government of Iran and the installation
of their own puppet dictator, the 'Shah', in the 1950's. The
article said that the Iran operation was a model for later CIA
coups in South America, in which other democratically elected
governments were replaced by bloody dictatorships friendly to
the CIA. The CIA has admitted to their part in the Guatemala
coup - after the criminals responsible were all safely dead and
beyond prosecution. Is it really an argument from ignorance to
wonder about what crimes they've committed but not yet admitted
to because the perpetrators are still alive, or perhaps are even
still busily perpetrating?

BTW: I don't believe there is any 'Grand' conspiracy. I think a
'falling out of theives' would occur much too often to permit
such a huge conspiracy from coalescing. But history shows that
there are always a lot of tawdry little conspiracies that are
not at all grand, but whose cumulative effects are just as
malignant as those that would be caused by one great monolithic
conspiracy. As one writer, whose name I can't recall, said:
"history is just a chronicle of the crimes against humanity."







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   Apr > Apr 17

               Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947

From: Asgeir W. Skavhaug <asge-s@online.no>
Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2000 21:29:00 +0200
Fwd Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 08:04:20 -0400
Subject: Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947


 >From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman@psln.com>
 >Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2000 11:40:08 -0800
 >Fwd Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2000 08:34:42 -0400
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >Subject: Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947

 >>Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 18:28:00 -0400
 >>From: Steven W. Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
 >>Subject: Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 ><snip>

 >>If the testimony from the MP is to be
 >>considered, it must have some test to prove it's veracity, or
 >>the debate over it's validity is likely to be very short indeed.

 >Yes I agree. I have nothing more to say about this topic for now
 >although I will still try to answer questions.

 >We'll do our best to find some method to verify the MP's story
 >in a way that doesn't reveal his identity. He does have more to
 >say but I'm afraid that it will fall on deaf ears if there isn't
 >more proof.

 >Ed


Ed:

Well, Ed, I'm still waiting for the answers to the following
questions:

http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates/2000/apr/m09-019.shtml


Regards,

Asgeir







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   Apr > Apr 17

                    Re: TMP News: Weekly Briefing 4.12.00

From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net>
Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2000 15:41:42 -0700
Fwd Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 08:08:49 -0400
Subject: Re: TMP News: Weekly Briefing 4.12.00


 >Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2000 13:47:29 -0500
 >From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net>
 >Subject: Re: TMP News: Weekly Briefing 4.12.00
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >>From: Jerome Clark
 >>Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2000 12:37:21 -0500
 >>Fwd Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2000 13:48:34 -0400
 >>Subject: Re: TMP News: Weekly Briefing 4.12.00

 >>>Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2000 12:53:25 -0700
 >>>From: Serge Salvaille
 >>>Subject: Re: TMP News: Weekly Briefing 4.12.00
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto

 >Previously, Joe Murgia wrote:

 >>>>Our gov't would never test anything on the public without
 >>>>telling them. Would they? They wouldn't ever lie to us. Would
 >>>>they? They don't have a history of doing similar things. Do
 >>>>they?

 >To which Serge gave excellent examples of such
 >abuse. (see previous post)

 >Jerry replies:

 >>All governments, including democratic ones, misbehave at times.
 >>We all know that, and sooner or later, that behavior gets
 >>exposed and often -- though not often enough -- those
 >>responsible are punished.

 ><snip>

 >>What do any of these have to do with conspiracy theory? I
 >>think they make my point: that obsession with fantasy theories
 >>about the gummint distracts attention from real social
 >>problems and abuses. If I were a conspiracy theorist, I'd
 >>argue that theories of imagined conspiracies are concocted to
 >>distract people's attentions from the less extravagant and
 >>far-reaching, but still troubling, abuses that really do
 >occur.

 >>Otherwise, the argument is the functional equivalent of saying
 >>that since scientists are sometimes wrong, the earth must be
 >>flat.

 >I've said before that I consider paranoia to be simply a
 >heightened state of awareness. ;)

 >However, I must ask - At what point do you draw a line in the
 >sand and say, "This _must_ be a conspiracy!"?

 >I think Serge's examples point the true nature of conspiracies
 >yet you seem to see them as anomalies. Well, you're right. They
 >should be anomalies. But more importantly, none of these people
 >thought they'd get caught which is why there were so many people
 >involved. Do you really think that the Nazi's would have treated
 >prisoners as bad as they did if the Nazi's weren't convinced
 >they were going to win the war? I find the authorities involved
 >in Serge's examples guilty of no less crimes.

 >The examples Serge pointed about Tuskegee and the secret
 >radiation experiments are the very definition of a "conspiracy";
 >a group of people engaging in secret, underhanded activities for
 >personal gain with no consideration for the well being of those
 >affected. We only know about them because they got caught. Is it
 >your position that because they were caught the conspiracy
 >didn't exist? Do you feel that all underhanded acts are
 >detectable and, if not detected, then they don't exist?

 >The word "conspiracy" isn't the name of a mythical beast. The
 >named was coined out of a need to describe the kind of acts that
 >Serge presented as examples. This seems so clear to me but you
 >feel the term doesn't apply. Why?

 >Just what do _you_ consider a real conspiracy?


Hello Roger, Jerry and Joe:

I don't want to get mixed up in a debate where I'm over my head,
but Roger brings up a question that has never been properly
answered to my satisfaction. i.e. Just what _is_ a conspiracy?

In law - where I have no expertise at all - I take it that a
conspiracy exists if two or more people plot out some crime, a
robbery perhaps.

They can be legally charged for that even if they never pull off
the crime itself - that worries me a bit!

It bothers me that the term is so vague. Suppose 3 or 4 military
or government types have or learn of a UFO sighting and simply
decide to keep it quiet for any plausible reason; to avoid
ridicule or excess paperwork for example.

Is that 'Conspiracy'?

Suppose a government agency secretly works on some elaborate
plan to raise taxes, and/or any number of unpopular and
questionable practices; but no single act is technically
illegal. Is that a conspiracy?

Frankly, I avoid the word since I cannot sit down and tell
anyone exactly what it _does_ mean.

Best wishes

- Larry Hatch







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   Apr > Apr 17

                             Re: Dust Bunny Hunt

From: John Velez <jvif@spacelab.net>
Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 03:23:30 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 08:10:03 -0400
Subject: Re: Dust Bunny Hunt


Hello All,

Nick informs me that out of the more than thirty people who
volunteered to participate only _six_ have responded so far.
C'mon guys. Without _you_ there is no 'experiment!'

If you volunteered, then please follow through and send in your
samples to Nick. If we don't start getting some submissions from
those who consented to participate, the whole thing will be just
another wash out.

It's all up to you.

Regards to all,

John Velez
--
________________________________________________
                         AIC - Abduction Information Center -
                        www.spacelab.net/~jvif/default.htm
                                    jvif@spacelab.net
  "Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind."
________________________________________________







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   Apr > Apr 17

                  New Book by Jim Marrs - 'Rule By Secrecy'

From: Sue Kovios <bradford@globalserve.net>)
Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 07:08:24 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 08:19:42 -0400
Subject: New Book by Jim Marrs - 'Rule By Secrecy'


----------
From: Brian Zinkle <bzinkle@mwt.net>
To: M-TRAC - MSAA List <cydonia@admin.listbox.com>
Subject: [M-TRAC - MSAA] New Book by Jim Marrs - Rule by Secrecy
Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 03:34:23 -0500

----------
From: QDC2@webtv.net
Sent: Sunday, April 16, 2000 2:22 PM
To: ufolist@egroups.com
Subject: NUFOIA: New Book by Jim Marrs - Rule by Secrecy


Source: Amazon.com

Book Description

Set aside your preconceptions of the world, of what you've read
in your history textbooks, and what you see and hear from the
mainstream media. Jim Marrs, award-winning journalist and author
of Alien Agenda and the New York Times bestseller Crossfire, is
about to change your perspective, as he unmasks the hidden
masters of history and religion.

In Rule by Secrecy Marrs painstakingly examines the world's most
closely guarded secrets, tracing the history of secret societies
and the power they have wielded, from the ancient mysteries to
modern-day conspiracy theories.

Searching for truth, he uncovers disturbing evidence that the
real movers and shakers of the world collude to start and stop
wars, manipulate stock markets and interest rates, maintain
class distinctions, and even censor the six o'clock news.

And they do this under the auspices of the Council on Foreign
Relations, the Trilateral Commission, the Bilderbergers, the
CIA, and even the Vatican. According to Marrs, the power of
these groups extends as far back as humankind's pre-history.

Drawing on historical evidence and his own impeccable research,
Marrs clearly traces the mysteries that connect these modern-day
secret societies to the Freemasons, the Illuminati, the Knights
Templar, and Egypt's Great Pyramids.

The result is a masterful synthesis of historical information,
much of it long hidden from the public, that sheds light on the
people and organizations that rule our lives.

Disturbing, thought-provoking, and utterly compelling, Rule by
Secrecy offers a provocative worldview that may explain who are
we, where we came from, and where are we going.

About the Author

Jim Marrs is a celebrated journalist and the author of Alien
Agenda and the New York Times bestseller Crossfire. He lives in
Texas.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~






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                    Re: TMP News: Weekly Briefing 4.12.00

From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 09:21:37 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 18:32:27 -0400
Subject: Re: TMP News: Weekly Briefing 4.12.00


 >Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2000 15:41:42 -0700
 >From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net>
 >Subject: Re: TMP News: Weekly Briefing 4.12.00
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

<snip>

 >Hello Roger, Jerry and Joe:

 >I don't want to get mixed up in a debate where I'm over my head,
 >but Roger brings up a question that has never been properly
 >answered to my satisfaction. i.e. Just what _is_ a conspiracy?

 >In law - where I have no expertise at all - I take it that a
 >conspiracy exists if two or more people plot out some crime, a
 >robbery perhaps.

 >They can be legally charged for that even if they never pull off
 >the crime itself - that worries me a bit!

<snip>

 >Frankly, I avoid the word since I cannot sit down and tell
 >anyone exactly what it _does_ mean.


Larry

WHAT!!  You want us to "agree" on the definitions of the
terminology we use? <g>

I believe that if two or more people "conspire" to commit an
illegal act, then it can be called a "conspiracy" in the legal
sense of the word.  This could involve a well planned bank
heist, or just two guys in a bar who (after a few drinks) decide
to rob the local gas station for more drinking money.  The crime
does not have to take place for the charge of conspiracy to be
brought.  But after the crime has occured the charge of
"conspiracy" becomes secondary, unless authorities are trying to
prove the involvement of others who were not at the scene of the
actual criminal activity.

In Maryland, the charge of conspiracy is used by authorities
force the cooperation of those who have contact with drug
dealers.  Since the "War on Drugs" has heated up the police in
some Maryland cities know that major drug dealers will pay their
bail and get out on the streets very quickly, but they can use a
"Conspiracy" charge to hold their girlfriends (or whomever) in
jail until they agree to testify against their friends.  This is
often unfair, and disruptive of families, but that's another
discussion for a different list.

Steve









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                    Re: TMP News: Weekly Briefing 4.12.00

From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 09:33:55 -0400 (EDT)
Fwd Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 18:33:51 -0400
Subject: Re: TMP News: Weekly Briefing 4.12.00


 >From: Lan Fleming <apollo18@swbell.net>
 >Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2000 12:51:15 -0600
 >Fwd Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 08:02:37 -0400
 >Subject: Re: TMP News: Weekly Briefing 4.12.00

 >It isn't an argument from ignorance to infer that government
 >agencies may have engaged in criminal activities that have not
 >yet been discovered based on quasi-criminal activities that they
 >are _known_ to have conducted.

Yeh, Lan, I think that it is.  Sorry, nothing personal.

<snip>

 >The Houston Chronicle today published an article on the 'secret'
 >history of how the CIA engineered the overthrow of the
 >democratically elected government of Iran and the installation
 >of their own puppet dictator, the 'Shah', in the 1950's.

Sorry, but I don't see what this has to do with providing
evidence that there is a mass spraying program of some kind over
the U.S. and Canada.

 >BTW: I don't believe there is any 'Grand' conspiracy. I think a
 >'falling out of thieves' would occur much too often to permit
 >such a huge conspiracy from coalescing.

I agree.

 >But history shows that there are always a lot of tawdry
 >little conspiracies that are not at all grand, but whose
 >cumulative effects are just as malignant as those that
 >would be caused by one great monolithic conspiracy.
 >As one writer, whose name I can't recall, said: "history
 >is just a chronicle of the crimes against humanity."

Perhaps, but the problem is that not all possible events happen.
Which, I guess is the problem with theories.


Clear skies,

Bob Young








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                    Re: TMP News: Weekly Briefing 4.12.00

From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net>
Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 09:09:35 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 18:37:40 -0400
Subject: Re: TMP News: Weekly Briefing 4.12.00


 >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2000 11:15:26 -0500
 >Fwd Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 07:29:02 -0400
 >Subject: Re: TMP News: Weekly Briefing 4.12.00

 >>Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2000 13:47:29 -0500
 >>From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net>
 >>Subject: Re: TMP News: Weekly Briefing 4.12.00
 >>To: updates@sympatico.ca

Previously, I wrote:

 >>I've said before that I consider paranoia to be simply a
 >>heightened state of awareness. ;)

To which Jerry replied:

 >Few things in life scare me as much as paranoids.

No offense, Jerry, but the only thing that scares me more are
people that ignore obvious conspiracies! By time they admit to
what is going on around them, it's to late to do anything about
it. This is called denial.

Moving on, Jerry stated:

 >A misdeed is a limited operation involving a finite number of
 >players.  A conspiracy theory imagines a vast operation with a
 >large number of players in all walks of life.

Why? People from "all walks of life" is not a prerequisite for a
conspiracy, as history has shown by Serge's examples. But while
we're on the subject, is it your belief that there were no
guilty civilians involved in the examples given?

Beyond that, I'm a little confused by your own definition of a
"misdeed". What constitutes a "finite number of players"? 3 - 10
- 100? Are you saying that a "finite number of players" can not
be "a large number of players"? I think you make a distinction
without a difference. Unless, of course, your idea of a
conspiracy is an unending number of players as opposed to a
large group of players. But why must it be large? I believe a
conspiracy can be defined by as few as two people, can't it?

Moving on, I pointed out:

 >>But more importantly, none of these people
 >>thought they'd get caught which is why there were so many people
 >>involved. Do you really think that the Nazi's would have treated
 >>prisoners as bad as they did if the Nazi's weren't convinced
 >>they were going to win the war? I find the authorities involved
 >>in Serge's examples guilty of no less crimes.

To which Jerry replied:

 >It's Nazis, Roger, not Nazi's. What are Nazis doing in this
 >discussion anyway?

(Well, they have a lot more to do with this discussion than the
little grammar lesson you just gave me. I know this is one of
your favorite tactics as I've seen you do it many times in the
past; pointing out people's misspellings, grammatical errors,
etc. Cheap shots, I think, and not becoming of someone of your
intelligence. So let's stick to the point, shall we, and not get
sidetracked on issues, such as typos, that have nothing to do
with this thread.)

Of which, you asked:

 >And why is the discussion confined to
 >gummint?  One could, with as much reason as conspiracy theorists
 >bring to their discussion of gummint, attack just about any
 >institution, however seemingly benign (e.g., organized
 >religion), as a conspiracy whose sole purpose is to perpetrate
 >evil.

I do not believe that Serge or I or anyone else has even
remotely suggested that the _sole_ purpose of the government is
to perpetrate evil. On the other hand, there is certainly a
large enough group of people within the government, engaged in
questionable activities, as to meet the basic definition of a
conspiracy, even using your own reasoning, don't you think? Or
are these just more, isolated "misdeeds"?

Continuing, you wrote:

 >No institution in this imperfect world has ever not done
 >something bad, but we do not define, say, the Catholic Church by
 >its problems with pedophilic priests.

Of course we do! The Catholic Church has known about these
problems for decades and has systematically made every attempt
to cover them up and keep it a secret. This has denied its
victims the right to recovery, both morally and legally. The
Catholic Church cover-up is one of the best examples of a
"conspiracy" that you could or I could have ever come up with!
Thanks!

Continuing, Jerry wrote:

 >OF COURSE people who commit crimes think they're going to get by
 >with it.  When I lived in Chicago during the last days of the
 >old party machine, I saw a vast and unending parade of aldermen,
 >judges, cops, and other functionaries get arrested on corruption
 >charges, tried, convicted, and sentenced to serious jail time.

What's your point, here? Isn't a "vast and unending parade"
virtually the same thing as "a large number of players"? Why
would one constitute a conspiracy to defraud the public and the
other not?

And lastly, Jerry stated:

 >It's also foolish and near-sighted, let me repeat, to confine
 >the discussion to gummints; they apply just as well to
 >corporations, religions, and any large group, every one of which
 >at some point or other has done something it should not have
 >done.

I could not agree more!

But in the end, it would seem that we have a variety of
different "species" of wrong-doers, here.

To choose from we have:

1. "a finite number of players"
2. "an infinite number of players"
3. "a vast and unending parade"
4. "any large group"

and, of course,

5. "Nazis" ;)

Which of these distinguish themselves as _not_ being a
conspiracy if their goal is personal gain at the expense of
others through a secret, coordinated effort?

Perhaps it's my deficiency in grammar, but I really can't see
the difference!

Later,
Roger








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                    Re: TMP News: Weekly Briefing 4.12.00

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 11:48:33 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 18:40:27 -0400
Subject: Re: TMP News: Weekly Briefing 4.12.00


 >Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2000 10:53:07 -0700
 >From: Paul Anderson <psa@direct.ca>
 >Subject: Re: TMP News: Weekly Briefing 4.12.00
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2000 09:36:44 -0500
 >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >>Subject: Re: TMP News: Weekly Briefing 4.12.00
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>>Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2000 00:25:30 -0400 (EDT)
 >>>From: Joe Murgia <Ufojoe1@aol.com>
 >>>Subject: Re: TMP News: Weekly Briefing 4.12.00
 >>>To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >>>>>>Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 09:12:25 -0500
 >>>>>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >>>>>>Subject: Re: TMP News: Weekly Briefing 4.12.00
 >>>>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>>>>Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 17:39:07 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time)
 >>>>>From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@yorku.ca>
 >>>>>Subject: Re: TMP News: Weekly Briefing 4.12.00
 >>>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>>>Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 19:58:31 -0700
 >>>>From: Paul Anderson <psa@direct.ca>
 >>>>Subject: TMP News: Weekly Briefing 4.12.00
 >>>>To: psa@direct.ca

 >The 'chemtrail'-related posting of mine seems to have touched a
 >few nerves (!)... this is in response primarily to Jerome
 >Clark, Nick Balsakas, and GT McCoy.

 >I do not wish to start a debate on this list, as this is not the
 >place for it; my TMP News updates are posted on the list as they
 >cover many various subject matters, including UFO phenomena,
 >etc.

 >However, it is clear from these persons' responses that they
 >have _not_ done much serious investigation of this matter.

Paul,

I have not called you names, and if you think I have, I
apologize. I was talking generally about the sorts of persons
attracted to outlandish claims about gummint plots, not about
you personally. As I have stated repeatedly on this list and
elsewhere, name-calling of specific individuals accomplishes
nothing.  What emerges from your remarks on chemtrails is, in my
opinion, a certain naivete about the nature of evidence, but
that's okay.  It doesn't make you a bad person.

Your evidence, or what you take to be evidence, reminds me of a
line from a Bob Dylan song: "Take what you have gathered from
coincidence."  I see a lot of things of varying degrees of
credibility thrown together here with no compelling reason to
see a relationship between them.  I also see some pretty serious
conclusion-jumping.

What strikes me, too, is that fears about chemtrails are
entirely a phenomenon of the fringes.  I am pretty widely read
in mainstream news reporting and science journalism, and I see
not a single mainstream watchdog -- journalistic, political, or
scientific -- taking up this issue, when if it were real, or at
least potentially real, there would be all kinds of incentives
to do so. The breaking of a story of this magnitude would make
Watergate look inconsequential.  The reporter or scientist or
Congressmember who broke it would be eligible for a Pulitzer
Prize, lucrative book and media deals, and the like -- all the
honors a grateful and wealthy society can bestow on someone who
exposes a major scandal.

What the contrails scare reminds me of is an episode from rural
Spain in the early 1980s, when farmers in three provinces
charged that the drought from which they were suffering was the
result of a sinister conspiracy.  The principal, though hardly
only, suspects were big tomato growers who, small farmers
asserted without discernible logic, did not want precipitation
to fall on their crops.  Farmers claimed, moreover, that the
conspirators had hired pilots to destroy rain clouds.  Repeated
investigations turned up no evidence for the existence of the
phantom planes, and social scientists eventually laid the
episode to mass hysteria.

Obviously, questions remain, as they so often do.  But as with
the chemtrails question, nothing justifies a rush to the most
paranoid possible explanations.

Jerry Clark








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               Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947

From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman@psln.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 09:50:45 -0800
Fwd Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 18:42:06 -0400
Subject: Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947


 >Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2000 21:29:00 +0200
 >From: Asgeir W. Skavhaug <asge-s@online.no>
 >Subject: Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >Well, Ed, I'm still waiting for the answers to the following
 >questions:

The MP is not feeling well but I'll try to answer these
questions as best I can from what he has written me.

 >1. It was reported by nurse(s), that the creatures had 4
 >fingers. You just saw one creature as it was being loaded into a
 >truck - maybe at bad light. Fingers may be difficult to count at
 >some distance, and finger aren't really the first thing to
 >observe in an aircraft crash - is it?. So, how can you then be
 >so sure it had 6 fingers - as in the Santilli film - which is an
 >important observation, if it's true?

He said clearly and without doubt that he saw and counted six
fingers.

 >2. Did you see any shoes? Did you see whether it / they had six
 >toes as well? (It's reasonable to think that they also had six
 >toes....maybe?)

The feet were covered with a silver or metal boot/ sock.

 >3. The Santilli film 'gives the indication' that the creature
 >being autopsied - and looking 'similar' to the creature you
 >'caught a glimpse of' - is 'very much' human-like, and looks (to
 >me) more or less like a dead human suffering from some kind of
 >syndrome - or it's just a dummy. (Thus it might be just a
 >filmed, ordinary autopsy of such a person, intended for medical
 >use - and really not a hoax at all; a _special_ autopsy film
 >falling into wrong hands - Santilli's!) In addition, it looks
 >>like being a woman, when looking into the region of the genitals
 >(and we would expect to find the creature's genitals there as
 >well....).

He didn't see any genitals.  The creatures were all clothed.

 >4. Can you be sure it / they weren't (crash test) dummies? Did
 >you see any 'blood' on the site?

They were the creatures shown on Fox, not crash dummies or
deformed humans. Any one who watches the AA carefully will soon
realize that the creature on that table is not a deformed human.
The MP has watched the AA.

 >5. Were there any discussions about possible non-normal
 >radioactivity, bacteria or viruses, and to take any precautions
 >against this, before  you came to the site? (Or, did the
 >officials expect what to find? The DoD were there 'pretty'
 >fast?)

He has no knowledge of any of that.

 >6. Is it possible - today - to find the rocks where the disc
 >had crashed? The rocks should be very badly damaged - unless the
 >craft were very light in construction, and had low speed when it
 >hit the rocks.

The craft had very little mass.  NM is a very big place and the
MP had no idea of where he was, only the general direction and
the estimated time it took to get there which was 2 hours and 45
min.

 >7. The 'stingray design' is a 'new approach', and should be
 >further described, sketched, and brought available to alle the
 >List members - as fast as possible!

I think sting ray is descriptive enough.  Arnold saw a sting ray
craft or similar design didn't he?

 >8. Were there any medical personnel at the site, giving first
 >aid, and telling whether the creatures were dead or not? Someone
 >with medical experience must have taken the decision about this
 >on-site.

Yes the MP saw medical personnel at the site and ambulances, two
of them.  Two tents were also visible.

 >9. Did it look like that  the officers and other officials at
 >the site were 'expecting' this visit in some way or other; that
 >they were in some way prepared to handle the situation should it
 >occur?

The site was organized when he arrived (remember he was only
there for three to four hours; only until the craft was loaded
on the flatbed) and yes it looked like they knew what they were
doing as far as he could tell.








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                              Re: Jeff Sainio?

From: Philip Mantle <pmquest@dial.pipex.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 18:43:12 +0000
Fwd Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 18:43:10 -0400
Subject: Re: Jeff Sainio?


Dear colleagues,

Can anyone provide me with the snail mail address of
photo-analyst Jeff Sainio (sp).

If you could I'd be most grateful.

Many thanks,

Philip.








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   Apr > Apr 17

              Satellite Images Of Area 51 Now Available On Web

From: Blair Cummins <ufoblair@hotmail.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 13:10:22 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 18:44:26 -0400
Subject: Satellite Images Of Area 51 Now Available On Web


Greetings list -

From: http://www.foxnews.com/national/0417/d_ap_0417_101.sml

Satellite images of Area 51 now available on Web
2.41 p.m. ET (1852 GMT) April 17, 2000
By Martha Waggoner, Associated Press

RALEIGH, N.C. (AP) � The truth is out there � on the Web. Photos
of Area 51, the super-secret Air Force test site in Nevada that
has long tantalized UFO and conspiracy buffs and fans of "The
X-Files," are being posted on the Internet.

"This is the first glimpse into the most secret training and
testing facility for the Air Force," said John Hoffman,
president of Aerial Images Inc. of Raleigh.

The company planned to post the images in collaboration with
Microsoft, Kodak, Digital Equipment Corp., Autometric Inc. and
the Russian agency Sovinformsputnik.

The partners launched a Russian satellite from Kazahkstan in
1998 to map Earth's surface and Area 51. An open-skies agreement
signed in 1992 by 24 nations, including the United States and
Russia, made the effort possible.

The Air Force only recently acknowledged that Groom Dry Lake Air
Force Base even exists. The 8,000-square-mile base is 75 miles
northwest of Las Vegas, in the arid, rugged Nellis Range.

Beginning with the U-2 spy plane in the 1950s, the base has been
the testing ground for a host of top-secret aircraft, including
the SR-71 Blackbird and, more recently, the F-117A stealth
fighter and B-2 stealth bomber.

The base's airspace is restricted; aircraft are not allowed to
fly over it. But satellite overflights are allowed as part of an
agreement to verify arms-control compliance.

Among UFO aficionados, it has long been known simply as Area 51,
the base's designation on old Nevada test site maps. They
believe that unidentified flying objects from other worlds are
hidden at the base, where their parts are copied for U.S.
prototypes.

The images, with resolution good enough to distinguish a car
from a truck, are better than earlier telephoto shots from the
nearby mountains. The only other known image purportedly was
shot by a satellite in the 1960s. It is much fuzzier.

"There are runways, there are buildings, there are buses, there
are test sites, but there aren't any little green men or
super-secret aircraft to be seen," Hoffman said of the new
photos.

Several government agencies are aware of the images and haven't
responded, said Hoffman, 52, a Vietnam veteran who recently
retired from the National Guard after 23 years. "I've had no
feedback from anybody that indicates anybody gives a hoot," he
said.

An Air Force spokeswoman would not comment Monday on any
security concerns about the images.

"We acknowledge having an operating site there, and the work is
classified," spokeswoman Gloria Cales said. The work involves
"operations critical to the U.S. military and the country's
security."

Aerial Images, at www.terraserver.com, planned to offer a link
to the Area 51 pages. Viewing the images is free; downloading
them costs $8.95 and up. Kodak will print photographs for $20 to
$30.

The images show craters, some seemingly formed by something
dropped from the sky, others possibly by something coming out of
the ground. There are hundreds of buildings, living quarters,
tennis courts, a baseball field, a track and a swimming pool.

There are no paved roads and no parking lots; buses are the only
visible vehicles, raising the question of how employees get to
and from work. Unpaved roads disappear into cliffsides,
suggesting a possible underground network.

A shrouded aircraft is visible on a ramp, unusual considering
the Air Force knows when Russian satellites are overhead,
Hoffman said.

Walter Andrus Jr., international director of the Mutual UFO
Network, based in Seguin, Texas, seemed to have a hard time
believing the object of so much secrecy and discussion would
soon be available on the Web.

"We have other photos taken from the ground and from the air,
but they aren't this current," he said.

Even Chris Carter, creator of "The X-Files," apparently was
skeptical when Hoffman contacted him. Some of the show's
favorite themes are UFOs and secret government activities, and
one of its mantras is "The truth is out there."

"He clearly didn't believe me," Hoffman said. "From his tone,
you could tell he didn't believe me that we had Area 51 and we
had the whole area covered."

---

Best regards,

- Blair Cummins
ufoblair@hotmail.com







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                           Chinese Take Great Leap

From: Blair Cummins <ufoblair@hotmail.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 13:24:58 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 18:47:39 -0400
Subject: Chinese Take Great Leap


Greetings list -

From: http://augustachronicle.com/stories/041800/tec_UX5102-7.shtml

Chinese take great leap
Web posted Apr. 17 at 02:42 PM
By Henry Chu
The Los Angeles Times

BEIJING -- The truth is out there.

It's hiding in the Shennongjia forest, eluding capture with its
loping stride and superhuman strength -- marks of its origin as
half man, half beast, says Yuan Zhenxin.

Or it's up in the sky, which Sun Shili scours for signs of life
from beyond. UFO buffs in China say their nation has become a
popular destination of late for interplanetary visitors, and Sun
is determined to figure out how they come here -- and why.

"Previously, most UFO sightings were in developed countries,
like the U.S.," said Sun, an expert in foreign, if not
extraterrestrial, trade. "Now China is developing ... so this
may have aroused the interest of beings from other worlds."

As China sheds the shackles of its Marxist past, the old
Communist emphasis on strictly scientific, rational and
atheistic thought is running into robust competition.

A cottage industry has sprung up here around investigations into
"X-Files"-type phenomena, ranging from the alleged existence of
Bigfoot to a hill in northern China that reportedly causes
passing cars to flip over without warning.

This explosion of interest in the paranormal follows 20 years of
bewildering social change, years that included the erosion of
communist ideology and sent many Chinese on a quest for some
deeper meaning, or at least a little excitement and wonder, in
their uncertain lives.

"Delving into the unknown is part of human nature," said Zeng
Congjun, deputy editor in chief of Mysteries, a national monthly
magazine (circulation 250,000) full of tales of lost
civilizations, alien visitations, the secrets of the Pyramids
and the astonishing powers of Siamese twins.

"In the past, Chinese people didn't dare air their (private)
imaginings in public," Zeng said. "Now, with the improvement of
living standards, people have more leisure time ... and want to
satisfy their spiritual needs."

As head of the Chinese UFO Research Association, Sun presides
over a nationwide network of government-approved UFO clubs that
boast a combined membership of 50,000. The group hosts national
conferences to discuss principles of jet propulsion as well as
reports of sightings of flying saucers. Sun counts party
officials and serious academics among his supporters, who see
his research as both scientifically valid and technologically
valuable. The Chinese air force even sent an officer to his
association's most recent convention, in 1998.

The local Beijing UFO chapter requires that members have college
degrees -- not an easy threshold to meet considering that less
than 3 percent of the population has received any form of higher
education.

"If we were less stringent, our numbers would be huge," said
Sun, 63, an affable, cardigan-wearing economics professor who
once served as a Spanish interpreter for Mao Tse-tung. "We
figure that 50 percent of the total population in China are UFO
devotees."

Sun receives up to 500 reports of UFO sightings a year. A rash
of alleged sightings came during the final months of last year,
when thousands of people across China reported seeing strangely
glowing objects hovering in the sky.

Official media rushed to cover the news, which made national
headlines and inspired a segment on China Central Television,
the main state network.

"So many people have seen it, and there are even pictures of it.
They can't be lying," said Yang Tao, 37, a government worker and
believer in extraterrestrial life.

"The universe is so big," he added. "Who knows what exists in
places very far away from Earth?"

China also has its share of reports of alien abductions. A few
months ago, a Beijing man claimed to have been beamed aboard a
spaceship in the dead of night and made to supernaturally heal
another captive earthling. After interviewing the man and having
him examined by a psychiatrist, Sun concluded that the story was
true.

Sun also puts stock in the account of a forestry worker who
allegedly was kidnapped by aliens in 1996, experimented on in
unspeakable ways, then entrusted with an important message to
impart to the people back on Earth: "Don't make war -- and
protect the environment."

"This is consistent with what's been heard in other places,"
said Sun, whose only personal encounter of the UFO kind occurred
30 years ago, when he saw a brightly shining object moving up
and down in the night sky. At the time, he says ruefully, he
mistook it for a Soviet spy plane.

While Sun and his fellow enthusiasts scan the skies for signs of
higher intelligence, Yuan keeps his sights low to the ground for
evidence of a creature of lesser intelligence: Bigfoot.

Yuan is convinced that between 1,000 and 2,000 of the apelike
creatures roam the forests of central China, particularly the
Shennongjia Nature Reserve in Hubei province.

Like Sun, Yuan dabbles in stories of abduction, including those
of two farmers who say they were kidnapped by Bigfoot but
escaped to tell the tale. Another person claimed to have spent
two hours in conversation with the creature, who reportedly
gesticulated and mimicked bird sounds.

"They're very clever," said Yuan, a retired paleoanthropologist
and member of the prestigious Chinese Academy of Sciences.

Yuan describes Bigfoot as more than 6 12 feet tall, with reddish
brown hair, long limbs and a rather nasty case of body odor.

In 1976-77, the government sponsored a Bigfoot expedition to
Shennongjia consisting of 100 people, including army personnel.

That trip and others yielded numerous samples of what Yuan
maintains are the hair, footprints and feces of an undiscovered
species, possibly descended from a giant ape whose fossilized
teeth can still be found in the region.

"They're a cousin of humans," he said of Bigfoot, known in
Chinese as "wild man."

But money for such study has dwindled, because fewer and fewer
of Yuan's fellow scientists are willing to approve funding
without more conclusive proof.

Yuan and his supporters have been forced to dig into their own
pockets to keep three informal research centers operating. One
of Yuan's colleagues even divorced his wife, sold his home and
moved permanently to Shennongjia to carry on the work.

Such fascination has flowered in China in response to the
ideological vacuum created by the deterioration of communism,
analysts say. Unorthodox ideas long suppressed or declared
illegal are bubbling back to the surface.

Scoffers note that scientific education in China is weak, making
it easier for people to fall prey to theories that wouldn't pass
muster in more educated societies. Sima Nan, China's answer to
the Harry Houdini who exposed fraudulent spiritualists, blames
traditional Chinese thinking for making people susceptible to
the unscientific.

"Chinese thinking is different from Western thinking," he said.
"Westerners try to get at things very clearly, asking what, why
and how much. Chinese are more interested in dealing with things
using metaphors or intuitive comparisons."

Yet for true believers, there is simply too much evidence on
their side -- scientific evidence, they insist -- for their
ideas to be dismissed so readily.

"It's not a question of whether one believes in the existence of
UFOs or not. UFOs are an objective fact," declared Wang Yuming,
editor of the Journal of UFO Research, a magazine (circulation
240,000) put out by Gansu Science & Technology Press, a
state-owned publishing house.

"I can understand why people don't believe in UFOs, because
modern science can't explain them," Wang said. But "hundreds of
years ago, who could imagine metal objects -- today's planes --
flying through the air?"

---

Best regards,

- Blair Cummins
ufoblair@hotmail.com







   UFO UpDates
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   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 >
   Apr > Apr 17

                          Filer's Files #15 -- 2000

From: George A. Filer <Majorstar@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 17:21:47 -0400 (EDT)
Fwd Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 18:49:49 -0400
Subject: Filer's Files #15 -- 2000


Filer's Files #15 -- 2000,  MUFON Skywatch Investigations
George A. Filer,      Director, Mutual UFO Network Eastern
April 17, 2000,     Majorstar@aol.com  (609) 654-0020
Web Site at www.filersfiles.com. - Chuck Warren Webmaster.

LIFE BEYOND EARTH

Astronauts Eugene Cernan and Guion S. Bluford both believe
there's life beyond Earth.  In a Los Angeles Times article in
1973, Eugene Cernan who was commander of Apollo 17 said, "I've
been asked (about UFOs) and I've said publicly I thought they
(UFOs) were somebody else, some other civilization."  Astronaut
Guion S. Bluford who is the veteran of four space shuttle
missions also says there is extraterrestrial life in the
universe.  He holds a doctorate degree in aerospace engineering
and was the first African American to fly in space aboard the
Challenger in 1983.  Bluford flew on STS 8 in 1983 (the
shuttle's first nighttime launch), STS 61A in 1985, STS 39 in
1991, and STS 53 in 1992.  Logging more than 700 hours in space
and 5,000 hours as an Air Force jet pilot, Bluford currently is
vice president of the science and engineering group for Federal
Data Corp.  He recently spoke at the Information Technology
Association of America's Convocation in Chicago.  "When you're
in orbit mire than 200 miles above the Earth, you realize how
delicate and thin the layer that is our atmosphere really is,"
he said. "And you realize how insignificant Earth is in the
universe.  You see no national boundaries upon the land, and
you realize that all six billion of us must live and survive
together."  Bluford said he thinks it's likely that other life
exists beyond Earth.  "We're so infinitesimal," he said, "that
it's hard not to imagine other life being created beyond our
planet and galaxy.  I don't know what form this life might
take, but even on Earth, life forms are created in many
different environments--undersea, on land, and in the
atmosphere."

NEW JERSEY TWO BOOMERANG SHAPED CRAFT SPOTTED

TUCKERTON -- I was standing outside my home with my family and
neighbors looking at a strange pink sky on April 6, 2000.  I
was outside at 8:34 PM because the color was very odd.  There
were clear skies with lots of stars out and the moon was very
clear.  As we kept staring at the sky we centered our attention
to an area where the sky was a pink circle that looked like
pink sunrays.  All of a sudden I saw two boomerang shaped
objects flying through the pink rays in the sky.  They had no
lights on them and were dull looking, kind of like a dull
silver.  I watched the two objects follow each other and zigzag
around a few stars until they disappeared.  There were no
sounds as the objects were flying across the sky.  They
traveled faster then an airplane but slower then a shooting
star and they didn't look like a shooting stars. Thanks to
Peter Davenport Director NUFORC www.nuforc.com

PUERTO RICO HAS TWO MORE UFO SIGHTINGS

SAN JUAN -- On Saturday, March 25, 2000, at 5:50 PM, two
high-flying UFOs were seen by several dozen eyewitnesses.
According to author Scott Corrales they traveled in opposite
directions.  "One was traveling west at an approximate heading
of 295 degrees magnetic.  The other was traveling east at a
heading for 115 degrees magnetic."  "At least one of the
eyewitnesses, Celestino 'Junior' Ortiz, a popular radio
announcer on Alpha Rock 105.7 FM, was able to capture both
objects on his camcorder."  "As he was leaving his house,
Ortiz, his wife and son, and friends spotted the mysterious
object heading west at a 20-degree angle.  He reached for his
camcorder and began filming.  The objects initially looked like
comets or meteors entering the atmosphere.  The object
traveling east passed high above the eyewitnesses, said the
members of his family.  No sound of jet engines or sonic boom
was heard as it flew by."  In early March 2000, Wally Durand
Urbino of the Puerto Rican UFO Research Group also reported a
UFO sighting in the city of Isabella, P.R.  "Luminous balls
were seen.  The witnesses reported that the luminous spheres
departed in the direction of the mountains, heading north, and
then veered towards the east, heading out over the Atlantic
Ocean, becoming lost in the sea mist."  Thanks to Scott
Corrales y Lucy Guzman UFO Roundup Vol. 5, # 15, 4/13/00
Editor: Joseph Trainor http://ufoinfo.com/roundup/

PENNSYLVANIA FLYING TRIANGLE SEEN

PITTSBURGH -- I saw an arrowhead shaped object without lights
pass very near the moon on April 13, 2000.  It took two seconds
to cover the distance of the diameter of the moon at 22:30
hours.  The object was moving from west to east.  The sky was
clear and the object probably would not have been noticed
unless moonlight shone on the object.  I would have thought it
was a cloud by the general coloring, if it were not for its
extremely symmetrical shape.  It did not change shape or fade,
and there were no other clouds present in the sky.  The size of
the image was about 3/4 the size of the moon.  I'm just curious
if anyone else saw something that night in the Pittsburgh sky?
A few seconds after witnessing the event I did hear what
sounded like a loud jet, but I live in an urban area with a
great many noises from multiple sources.  Thanks to Peter
Davenport Director NUFORC www.nuforc.com

INDIANA: UFO HOVERS OVER PLANT

INDIANAPOLIS -- WB reports that he is a former Indiana Deputy
Sheriff now in private security at a large Indianapolis
chemical plant.  On Tuesday, March 14, 2000, at about 10:50 PM,
he was patrolling the facility with an associate, when he
observed a white glowing elongated object about 30 to 35 feet
long.  The object was hovering over high-tension wires about 50
yards away.  It was completely silent.  As they watched, the
object moved in a southerly direction at about 25 to 30 mph,
and passed over them about 50 feet up.  It continued along in
silence and disappeared to the south after about three minutes.
The witness has prepared a sketch, and indicated the object was
shaped like a grain of rice, rounded at both ends.  This case
was referred to Indiana MUFON for investigation.  Thanks to Tom
Sheets, ISUR Board-SD MUFONGA  tangosix@webtv.net.

WEST VIRGINIA VIDEOS OF DISC UFOs

WHITE SULPHUR SPRINGS -- On April 6, 2000, the Fire Tower Look
Out at Blue Bend Recreation area videotaped four UFOs at 4:30
PM.  Four UFOs can be seen just after they come out of the
cloud.  The objects are circular and appear to be approximately
50 feet across.  Within a two minutes 14 different UFO's are
caught on video.  The best video is when nine of these objects
are seen flying straight up through the clouds all at once,
together.  They all continue flying even higher up into the
atmosphere.  All of the footage has been slowed down to 90
frames per/second.  This footage is absolutely phenomenal.
Thanks to Chris Miller See: http://www.UFOfootage.com/

MISSOURI NUMEROUS UFO 's SIGHTED

NORTHEAST -- On January 13, 2000, we watched approximately 32
UFO's and seven aircraft between 6:45 to 8:45 PM.  They were
going traveling in all directions and not in formation.  There
were eight at one time, then three or four at a time.  It first
started when my daughter and my two grandchildren were on their
way to see me.  They live about 23 miles west of me.  They were
driving down the road when my grandson saw something in the sky
in the distance and they began to watch it closer. They were so
hypnotized by it that they turned off the highway on to a
secondary road to get a closer look. They drove several miles
down the road until my daughter and grandson began to get
scared.  They wanted my granddaughter to turn around, but she
would not.  She was almost hypnotized by the light.  She
finally pulled onto a gravel road and stopped.  Now they were
very close to the object and observed it for five minutes.
During the time they stayed in this spot the light quit moving
and just hovered.  The mother and grandson were getting scared
so finally my granddaughter started back the same way.  The
light followed them as they returned the way they came.  The
UFO crossed over the top of their car and followed them at a
distance all the way to my house.  When the object passed over
the car and when hovering it changed form.  It went from
actually looking like a UFO to looking completely different.
But it was the SAME light!  A soon as they got to my house they
ran in and got me and we all stood outside watching.  That is
when it all started.  UFOs were everywhere! We counted 32 in
all, 7 airplanes. We got a neighbor to watch, then my daughter
went to her friend's house and got them to watch, so there were
actually about seven witnesses.  There was no noise except the
noise from the planes.  Thanks to Adeline Davis
brendad@cableone.net

ARKANSAS FLYING CIGAR STOPS CAR

HOT SPRINGS - On April 9, 2000, I was driving home from church
home and saw an enormous cigar shaped craft.  I happened to
look up and coming straight at me was a metallic pinkish cigar
shaped object flying toward my vehicle at about 100 feet above
the road when my car died at 16:30 PM.  Light was glowing off
of it and it was going more than 100 miles an hour.  It stopped
right in front of my car, and that was the last thing I
remembered before I woke up.  I have flashes of memory that I
seem to recall being held to a table but I couldn't feel any
straps or restraints.  I was very cold and I heard a
high-pitched buzzing the entire time.  When I awoke, I was
laying in the back-seat of my car.  I could smell a burning
odor like the wires in my car were fried.  It was dark and when
I got home about four and a half-hours later.  I went to sleep
and slept for fourteen hours.  Just yesterday, I noticed I had
two bright red scars running parallel to each other along my
back.  I read somewhere that unexplainable scars or missing
time were signs of abduction.  I really was skeptical at first
but now I'm grateful for people like you helping us.  Thanks to
Peter Davenport Director NUFORC, www.nuforc.com.

TEXAS LARGE FLYING TRIANGLE SPOTTED

ARLINGTON -- Mike Harman reports seeing a large Flying Triangle
or kite shaped craft on April 10, 2000, at 10:00 PM Eastern
Daylight Time.  I was driving north on IH 360, and drove under
I 20 when I spotted a large triangular shaped object about a
mile directly ahead of me.  The object was 60 to 100 feet wide
judging from it's proximity to the high tension power line
towers near it.  I would guess this craft was two pencil
erasers wide as held at arm's length.  The triangle was
hovering or moving very slowly near the power lines.  The
triangle was fairly flat on top and was sharply pointed on each
end. It was solid black and its nose pointed slightly downward
as it hovered almost motionless.  The altitude of the object
was not more than 500 to 1000 feet above the ground.  I also
noticed a shiny metallic much smaller object just ahead of the
large triangle.  This object was very close to the triangle and
seemed to be connected with the triangle in some way.  It could
have been a helicopter, but it was too far away to tell for
sure.  I noticed the sun glinting off the object as it made a
turn.  The silver object was only a tenth the size of the
triangle.  I was unable to determine sound as I was observing
this from inside a moving automobile at the time.  They hovered
near high-tension lines.  My wife was with me and would not
allow me stop, "keep your eyes on the road," she said.  I had
two or three minute's total time to observe these strange
craft.  I was a mile away from the craft at the time of this
sighting, I could not make out too much detail and could only
see the shape of the craft.  It was too flat for a blimp or a
balloon and what was that bright silver object so near it?
Both were hovering not moving or moving very slowly.  The
weather was partly cloudy and the object was definitely below
the could cover.  This is the second major sighting I've had
since 04/09/2000 at 12:50PM. Thanks to Michael Harman
Mike_Harman@rocketmail.com. Private UFO Investigations

HOW TO TAKE UFO PHOTOS?

With the advent of better cameras we are obtaining more videos
and photographs of UFOs.  Actually we would like to analyze
your photos.  Mark Cashman MUFON's CT State Director suggests:
First of all, remind your readers that objects seen with the
naked eye will appear much smaller on film.  The moon, which
seems so large, can be a pinpoint on film when shot with a
standard lens.  Photos of pinpoint light sources are useless.
Second, the only photos of interest will be those which show
something large enough to demonstrate detail.  In addition,
they must show the object near, preferably in front of,
reference points of a known distance; this will allow
determination of size and make hoaxes more difficult.  Multiple
different exposure rates, zoom, and f-stop can be helpful, as
can be the use of a variety of filters.  Third, a tradeoff
between sensitivity and grain size must be struck. Usually this
means films no higher than 800 ASA, but preferably any higher
than 400 ASA.  Unfortunately, in low light conditions, this
means that handshake will cause blur, so a tripod is advised.
Fourth, no photo is any better than the report and the
investigation.  Photogrammetry cannot resolve the truth of a
photo alone.  Witnesses who photograph must provide at least as
much documentation as the anecdotal witness.  They must
especially identify the type of camera, lens, and the time of
day and direction of the photo, and zoom / f-stop settings.  In
addition, they should preserve the camera for examination by
experts.  Ideally, after photographing the UFO, the witness
should shoot a variety of natural objects at known distances
using the same film, camera, and settings.  These objects
should be identified, their distance specified, and the prints
made available along with the UFO shots.  These calibration
photos are essential to determining the nature of an
unidentified light source or object.  If the sighting is a
distant night or day sighting, streetlights and passing
aircraft make good calibration candidates.  The lens must be
clean.  Finally, everyone should become more aware of the
appearance of lens flares (day and night), development flaws,
lens dirt, and other artifacts.  Note that digital cameras have
their own artifacts that are very unusual looking.  Digital
photos and videos should be evaluated very carefully, because
they're low resolution and slow frame rates make hoaxing and
errors fairly easy.  Ideally, the use of stereo camera setups,
like that described by Dr. Maccabee in "The Gulf Breeze
Photos", can show something about the distance of photographed
objects.  However, calibration is essential.  For subjects like
"rods" which may be very close to the camera, calibration,
preferably independently verified, is even more important.  I
hope this helps.  Thanks to Mark Cashman, creator of The
Temporal Doorway at mcashman@temporaldoorway.com (Mark Cashman)

MONTANA DISC HOVERS FOR TWO HOURS

SOMERS -- Vern Corban by all means, publish my story.  The more
it is seen, the more likely I will reach someone who may also
have seen that craft.  I was at my grandmother's home in the
Flathead Valley.  I was about five years old and this is why I
do not recall for sure the year, but I do know it was around
1953 during the summer.  The sky was bright blue and the land
was covered with grass. My mother came into the living room and
told me there was a UFO outside.  Mom and grandma were
frightened, so I was not allowed to go outside, but we did go
to the window facing the UFO and peek out.  Across the street
no more than 50 yards away hovered a silvery top-shaped object
about the size of a water tower reservoir--the kind that is
mounted on long girder legs.  It was directly above the
neighbor's driveway.  There were many people lined up along the
highway, which ran between our house and the UFO.  There were
no intervening trees or buildings, so it was quite clear that
this was no normal aircraft.  It held its position 25 feet
above the ground for something like two hours. Since, I was not
allowed to continue to watch, I didn't see it depart.  I was
told several people notified the authorities and they refused
to come out at first.  When they finally did the craft had
already left.  I believe that there may have been pictures
taken by some of the witnesses.  Thanks to Vern Corban
vcorban@earthlink.net.

CALIFORNIA LIGHTS OVER DESERT

Donald Macpherson writes on April 6, 2000, my wife and I were
driving east on I 10 about one-third of the way from Indio
toward Blythe.  A quarter moon was low in the western sky
around 8 30 PM and the night was clear.  My wife said, "
There's lightning'." I glanced out her passenger side window
and noticed a yellowish light a hundred yards south of the
highway.  Then a second light appeared about two hand widths to
the east.  Then a third and fourth light appeared about the
same distance east.  The lights were quite evenly spaced and
about the same height above the top of a hill.  Another light
passed over the three lights and was outlined by their glow.
The lights were traveling east at about 70 mph just maintaining
the same speed we were.  There was another flash behind the
hills.  The lights were in view for fifteen minutes until the
road curved to the left.  I assumed there was some kind of a
military operation.  The lights were perfectly steady,
yellowish and stayed at the same height.  Flares would have
been white, flickering and descending giving off visible smoke.
No aircraft employs steady yellowish lights.  Considering the
fact that these lights stayed due south of us for fifteen
minutes, I must conclude that they were traveling east at our
speed.  Thanks to: Donald Macpherson e mail  dmacphe975
@aol.com

NEW ZEALAND SIGHTINGS AND ABDUCTION

CHRISTCHURCH -- Kevin Kemm who is 42 writes I have been
investigating UFO's for the last 17 years and have personally
seen 25 most with witnesses at my side.  It all began with
abductions from my home in Christchurch.  One time while on the
road with my band six of us saw an enormous UFO send out what I
now know as a probe.  It hovered silently over our heads.  The
underside was exactly like the Travis Walton craft.  Some of
the guys in the band freaked out and returned inside the house.
Two of us remained outside until the ship shot strait up and
vanished.  The craft was at least 100 feet across.  The
underside was a swirling mass like looking into a cooling
volcano crust.  I'm not too sure if we had missing time, as I
haven't spoken to the others for many years.  Perhaps, I should
have regressive hypnosis to find out about these first
abductions.  I can remember almost everything; they were Grey's
who froze me.  All I could use was my eyes.  I tried to speak
but I couldn't. One of the Grey's came over and touched my
head.  I felt a lot more at ease, and I was totally awake.
Since then, I have vivid premonitions, which often come true.
I have predicted many events and have written them down and had
the notes witnessed.  Another gift they gave me was to paint
awesome pictures that I wasn't able to do before.  The Grey's
don't like it when I move, even though I'm tagged they get lost
for a while and I actually miss their presence.  A close friend
of mine and I often go down to the beach near our city at 2:30
AM, when the UFO how starts.  I'm really surprised no one else
is on the beach at that time as this happens quite often.
Usually two craft come along.  One blinks out and the other
remains over the beach though out the night as if to keep an
eye on the city.  I recently purchased a digital camera and on
the next clear night I'm going out.  Yes, you may print my
story if you want.  Please dot hesitate to email me if you need
an experienced field investigator as I am already a qualified
private investigator by profession.  Thanks to: Kevin
k-kemm@xtra.co.nz (k-kemm)

WRIGHT PATTERSON AIR FORCE BASE

AREA 51 -- Robert Collins writes in the URL below there is an
Area 51 drawing extracted from a January, 1945 Wright Field
Project Sanitary Sewerage Investigation and Report, Master
Sanitary Sewerage Plan from the US Engineering Office,
Cincinnati, Ohio.  (File No. O-P 1175-1/2).  This Area 51 is
known to be on maps prior to 1945 and on maps up to at least
1948: Area 51 is located in what is known today as Area "B." of
Wright Patterson Air Force Base.  The drawing runs almost
directly east/west and sits on a hill over looking the flight
line.  Above Area 51 running directly west is an "Acceleration
Runway/Ramp" used for doing high velocity aircraft testing and
running down the hill:  See
http://home.sprintmail.com/~rigoletto/reports/wpaaf_area51.htm
for further information and
http://home.sprintmail.com/~rigoletto/Sanctuary_Of_The_Birds.ht
m   for updates and reports.

ROSWELL EVIDENCE IN GENERAL RAMEY'S HAND

On July 7, 1947, the Army Air Force announced from Roswell they
had recovered the wreckage of a crashed UFO.  Less than
twenty-four hours later, General Ramey the Commander's 8th Army
Air Force was photographed in his office by Fort Worth Star
Telegram photographer James Bond Johnson holding a piece of
paper and standing in front of the alleged debris.  Several
distinguished groups are attempting to decipher the writing on
the assumed message using modern computers.  David Rudiak
comments on last week's Filer's Files #14, Message Comparisons
saying, "My thinking is based on what I believe to be a fairly
accurate reading of a _real_ message being held by General
Ramey, a Roswell principle at a critical moment."  I have some
important amendments to the last three lines of the message.
The following I now believe very accurately conveys the content
of these lines:  (Capital letters/words denote higher
confidence as to accuracy the lower case letters.  dashes (-)
denote uncertainty as to space or character). Line 5......AT
ROSWELL. ASsure [Affirm] Line 6.     thaT ciC-teAM SAID SEND
MiStatEd rElease AS STORY And said   [MiStakEn]
[mEaning/message/vErsion] Line 7.     (story)theY nEXt SEND OUT
is OF WEATHER BALLOONS would farE[takE] COPY  [Stamp in large
letters partially obscuring left edge of lines 7 & 8] Line 8.
(better if)THEY ADD LAND DRopsONDE CreWS.
<"stage">[Handwriting beneath "dropsonde"] says "land
dropsonde"}

These lines are clearly about the Roswell cover-up.  If my take
on these lines is accurate (and I strongly feel that it is),
then a scenario something like the following emerges.  A
counter-intelligence team was in charge (the "CIC-TEAM").
There may also be a reference to another "team" up on the third
line of the message (according to interpretations by Don
Burleson and myself) that handled wreckage transported to Fort
Worth.   ("...THE WRECK YOU FORWARDED TO THE --TEAM(?) AT FORT
WORTH, TEX.")]    Ramey seems to be asking (or had asked) for
confirmation that this team was responsible for the original
misstated/mistaken story.  (Ramey would therefore appear not to
be fully in-the-loop on this matter.)  Thus the captured
crashed disk press release from Roswell base was no accident
and probably not the handiwork of regular Roswell or 8th Army
Air Force personnel.  Instead the press release was a plan put
into action by the CI team in charge.  The CI team also
apparently thought that the follow-up weather balloon story
next being sent out (not clear who originated it) would fly
better if they bolstered it with "land dropsonde crews."  A
"dropsonde" is a specialized meteorological word for a weather
balloon radiosonde that is dropped by parachute, usually from a
plane, but sometimes lofted by a balloon.  (Funk and Wagnall's
Dictionary)  A "dropsonde crew" is just an obtuse and unusual
way of saying a weather balloon crew.  Add weather balloon
crews to increase credibility of the weather balloon story,
says the message.

The last part of the message is referring to the military
weather balloon demonstrations that followed immediately after
Roswell used to debunk Roswell and the recent national wave of
flying saucer sightings.  This is a matter of historical
record.  Alamogordo was one of these on July 9, but there were
others published in the Fort Worth Star-Telegram with photos on
July 11.  The handwriting underneath "land dropsonde crews,"
possibly Ramey's, says to "stage" one of the demonstrations and
make sure photos were taken ("photos yes.").  And so it was
done a day and a half later at Fort Worth AAF.  There also
appears to be a "COPY" stamp indicating this wasn't the
original, but a copy of a message recently sent out or
received.  This message obviously contains many important clues
as to what happened at Roswell. (And I haven't even talked
about the "victims of the wreck" phrase up near the top of the
message.)  The provenance of this document is unquestionable.
General Ramey himself is holding the smoking gun in his hand
over the dead body of a weather balloon.  Where is this message
now?  If Roswell was truly a "nonevent" as the modern AF
counterintelligence team labeled it, then Ramey's message, copy
or original, should be in some archive somewhere along with
other of Ramey's or 8th AAF documents.  We can settle all
arguments over exactly what it says by obtaining a copy of it.
What harm could possibly come of it?  On the other hand, if
Roswell was a lot more than a crashed Mogul balloon, then we
can expect to get the usual run-around from the Air Force
during FOIA requests.  Thanks to David Rudiak

EDITORS NOTE: I want to thank you for all cards and letters
asking about my health.  After my by-pass operation last month
I now walk over two miles each day.  I'm feeling healthier than
ever.  Regards, George Filer.

PHOTOGRAPH BOOKLET of some of the best UFO shots available and
data on their propulsion systems. $10.00 by US Navy Commander
Graham Bethune.  Send money order or check to George Filer at
222 Jackson Road, Medford, NJ 08055

US GOVERNMENT UFO PROOF RELEASED: Audio tapes of a genuine UFO
Alert at Edwards Air Force base and studied by the Foreign
Technology Division at Wright Patterson Air Force Base, are now
available for distribution to the public.  Sam Sherman's audio
documentary tape called EDWARDS AIR FORCE BASE ENCOUNTER on the
night of October 7, 1965, uses the actual voice recordings
provided by the Air Force.  During this event 12 high tech
luminous UFOs invade secure air space and came down low over
the runways at Edwards AFB.  Tower operator Sgt. Chuck Sorrels
spotted them and notified the Air Defense Command.  Sgt.
Sorrels is heard on the original tapes and in a new segment
where he verifies the event as it is heard on the archival
recordings.  The UFOs are described and a decision is made to
launch F-106 fighter interceptors.  You are there for an
important part of UFO history.  Hear it for yourself, it's the
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for shipping -- total $16.95 -- (for overseas orders-out of US
- add $6.00 shipping cost -- total -- $20.95) you can send
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   Apr > Apr 17

                    Re: TMP News: Weekly Briefing 4.12.00

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
Date: Wed, 17 Apr 1996 18:41:11 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 20:30:19 -0400
Subject: Re: TMP News: Weekly Briefing 4.12.00


 >Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 09:09:35 -0500
 >From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net>
 >Subject: Re: TMP News: Weekly Briefing 4.12.00
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >>Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2000 11:15:26 -0500
 >>Fwd Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 07:29:02 -0400
 >>Subject: Re: TMP News: Weekly Briefing 4.12.00

 >>>Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2000 13:47:29 -0500
 >>>From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net>
 >>>Subject: Re: TMP News: Weekly Briefing 4.12.00
 >>>To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >>>I've said before that I consider paranoia to be simply a
 >>>heightened state of awareness. ;)

 >To which Jerry replied:

 >>Few things in life scare me as much as paranoids

 >No offense, Jerry, but the only thing that scares me more are
 >people that ignore obvious conspiracies! By time they admit to
 >what is going on around them, it's to late to do anything about
 >it. This is called denial.

And there is also a thing, much more in evidence in our society
than denial.  It's called paranoia.  It blew up the Federal
Building in Oklahoma City.  A degree of denial would do a lot to
bring society's more excitable -- and sometimes dangerous --
souls closer to reality.

 >Moving on, Jerry stated:

 >>A misdeed is a limited operation involving a finite number of
 >>players.  A conspiracy theory imagines a vast operation with a
 >>large number of players in all walks of life.

 >Why? People from "all walks of life" is not a prerequisite for a
 >conspiracy, as history has shown by Serge's examples. But while
 >we're on the subject, is it your belief that there were no
 >guilty civilians involved in the examples given?

By his own admission what Serge was pointing to were not
conspiracies.  He was pointing to events, all of them receding
into history, which occurred during the early Cold War and also
during the pre-civil rights era, when institutional racism made
things like the Tuskogee experiment possible.

 >Beyond that, I'm a little confused by your own definition of a
 >"misdeed". What constitutes a "finite number of players"? 3 - 10
 >- 100? Are you saying that a "finite number of players" can not
 >be "a large number of players"? I think you make a distinction
 >without a difference. Unless, of course, your idea of a
 >conspiracy is an unending number of players as opposed to a
 >large group of players. But why must it be large? I believe a
 >conspiracy can be defined by as few as two people, can't it?

 >Moving on, I pointed out:

 >>>But more importantly, none of these people
 >>>thought they'd get caught which is why there were so many people
 >>>involved. Do you really think that the Nazi's would have treated
 >>>prisoners as bad as they did if the Nazi's weren't convinced
 >>>they were going to win the war? I find the authorities involved
 >>>in Serge's examples guilty of no less crimes.

 >To which Jerry replied:

 >>It's Nazis, Roger, not Nazi's. What are Nazis doing in this
 >>discussion anyway?

 >(Well, they have a lot more to do with this discussion than the
 >little grammar lesson you just gave me. I know this is one of
 >your favorite tactics as I've seen you do it many times in the
 >past; pointing out people's misspellings, grammatical errors,
 >etc. Cheap shots, I think, and not becoming of someone of your
 >intelligence. So let's stick to the point, shall we, and not get
 >sidetracked on issues, such as typos, that have nothing to do
 >with this thread.)

Not a cheap shot, Roger.  Sorry you took it that way.
It's just that you don't put a possessive s ('s) when you
mean a plural s.  I apologize if you took offense.  None was
meant.

 >Of which, you asked:

 >>And why is the discussion confined to
 >>gummint?  One could, with as much reason as conspiracy theorists
 >>bring to their discussion of gummint, attack just about any
 >>institution, however seemingly benign (e.g., organized
 >>religion), as a conspiracy whose sole purpose is to perpetrate
 >>evil.

 >I do not believe that Serge or I or anyone else has even
 >remotely suggested that the _sole_ purpose of the government is
 >to perpetrate evil. On the other hand, there is certainly a
 >large enough group of people within the government, engaged in
 >questionable activities, as to meet the basic definition of a
 >conspiracy, even using your own reasoning, don't you think? Or
 >are these just more, isolated "misdeeds"?

 >Continuing, you wrote:

 >>No institution in this imperfect world has ever not done
 >>something bad, but we do not define, say, the Catholic Church by
 >>its problems with pedophilic priests.

 >Of course we do! The Catholic Church has known about these
 >problems for decades and has systematically made every attempt
 >to cover them up and keep it a secret. This has denied its
 >victims the right to recovery, both morally and legally. The
 >Catholic Church cover-up is one of the best examples of a
 >"conspiracy" that you could or I could have ever come up with!
 >Thanks!

Huh?  The Roman Catholic Church is to be defined as a conspiracy
to perpetrate child molestation?

I am speechless.  And so being, I drop out of the discussion.

Jerry Clark









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   Apr > Apr 17

                    Re: TMP News: Weekly Briefing 4.12.00

From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net>
Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 20:07:19 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 22:13:36 -0400
Subject: Re: TMP News: Weekly Briefing 4.12.00


 >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >Date: Wed, 17 Apr 1996 18:41:11 -0500
 >Fwd Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 20:30:19 -0400
 >Subject: Re: TMP News: Weekly Briefing 4.12.00

 >>Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 09:09:35 -0500
 >>From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net>
 >>Subject: Re: TMP News: Weekly Briefing 4.12.00
 >>To: updates@sympatico.ca

Previously, Jerry stated:

 >>>A misdeed is a limited operation involving a finite number of
 >>>players.  A conspiracy theory imagines a vast operation with a
 >>>large number of players in all walks of life.

To which I replied:

 >>Why? People from "all walks of life" is not a prerequisite for a
 >>conspiracy, as history has shown by Serge's examples. But while
 >>we're on the subject, is it your belief that there were no
 >>guilty civilians involved in the examples given?

Jerry responds:

 >By his own admission what Serge was pointing to were not
 >conspiracies.  He was pointing to events, all of them receding
 >into history, which occurred during the early Cold War and also
 >during the pre-civil rights era, when institutional racism made
 >things like the Tuskogee experiment possible.

I think you missed the point. Regardless of what you believe
Serge meant by his examples, I don't think you can ignore that
there was a definite conspiracy to hide the truth about what
happened. As you pointed out, sometimes governments or even
individuals do bad things; sometimes even accidental things. The
real conspiracy starts when there is a concerted effort to hide
the truth.

Moving on, you wrote:

 >>>No institution in this imperfect world has ever not done
 >>>something bad, but we do not define, say, the Catholic Church by
 >>>its problems with pedophilic priests.

To which I replied:

 >>Of course we do! The Catholic Church has known about these
 >>problems for decades and has systematically made every attempt
 >>to cover them up and keep it a secret. This has denied its
 >>victims the right to recovery, both morally and legally. The
 >>Catholic Church cover-up is one of the best examples of a
 >>"conspiracy" that you could or I could have ever come up with!
 >>Thanks!

Your response:

 >Huh?  The Roman Catholic Church is to be defined as a conspiracy
 >to perpetrate child molestation?

 >I am speechless.  And so being, I drop out of the discussion.

That's certainly your right, Jerry. But make sure you are doing
it for the right reason. Never did I imply that the Roman
Catholic Church was a conspiracy to perpetrate child
molestation. YOU pointed out the fact that the crime was
occurring within the church, not me. I merely pointed out that
the church conspired to HIDE that fact. THAT's the conspiracy I
speak of; which is what most conspiracies are: To hide the
truth.

later,

Roger Evans







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   Apr > Apr 18

                    Re: TMP News: Weekly Briefing 4.12.00

From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@rocler.qc.ca>
Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 22:12:52 -0700
Fwd Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 08:16:11 -0400
Subject: Re: TMP News: Weekly Briefing 4.12.00


 >Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 11:48:33 -0500
 >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >Subject: Re: TMP News: Weekly Briefing 4.12.00
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2000 10:53:07 -0700
 >>From: Paul Anderson <psa@direct.ca>
 >>Subject: Re: TMP News: Weekly Briefing 4.12.00
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

<snip>

 >I am pretty widely read
 >in mainstream news reporting and science journalism, and I see
 >not a single mainstream watchdog -- journalistic, political, or
 >scientific -- taking up this issue, when if it were real, or at
 >least potentially real, there would be all kinds of incentives
 >to do so.

Do you see any mainstream concerns about UFOs in general and
abductions in particular or is this to you an entirely different
issue?

Do you realize that this kind of argumentation has been used at
nauseam by debunkers against the authenticity of the UFO
phenomena?

If you consider it valuable, let's all bow in front of Klass
Inc.


 >Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2000 11:15:26 -0500
 >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >Subject: Re: TMP News: Weekly Briefing 4.12.00
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2000 13:47:29 -0500
 >>From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net>
 >>Subject: Re: TMP News: Weekly Briefing 4.12.00
 >>To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >The crimes -- and that's the right word -- Serge points to
 >occurred in a wholly different historical context from the one
 >we live in now.  They occurred either in a time of open
 >institutional racism (the notorious Tuskegee experiments) or in
 >the darkest days of the Cold War.  The exposure of these abuses
 >shocked people, and it is highly unlikely that they will occur
 >again.

Just two questions here:

1. Do you consider that Governments are hiding the truth to
their people concerning UFOs?  You know, this has been going for
nearly 55 years now.

2. In the affirmative, could it be a crime?

Serge Salvaille







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                    Re: TMP News: Weekly Briefing 4.12.00

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 21:51:17 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 08:19:53 -0400
Subject: Re: TMP News: Weekly Briefing 4.12.00


 >Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 20:07:19 -0500
 >From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net>
 >Subject: Re: TMP News: Weekly Briefing 4.12.00
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >>Date: Wed, 17 Apr 1996 18:41:11 -0500
 >>Fwd Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 20:30:19 -0400
 >>Subject: Re: TMP News: Weekly Briefing 4.12.00

 >>>Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 09:09:35 -0500
 >>>From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net>
 >>>Subject: Re: TMP News: Weekly Briefing 4.12.00
 >>>To: updates@sympatico.ca

Hi, Roger,

Okay, one last word.

 >>By his own admission what Serge was pointing to were not
 >>conspiracies.  He was pointing to events, all of them receding
 >>into history, which occurred during the early Cold War and also
 >>during the pre-civil rights era, when institutional racism made
 >>things like the Tuskogee experiment possible.

I should have written, "What Serge was pointing to were not
conspiracies in the conspiracy-theory sense."  It's been a rough
day, and my brain is not up to full function.

 >I think you missed the point. Regardless of what you believe
 >Serge meant by his examples, I don't think you can ignore that
 >there was a definite conspiracy to hide the truth about what
 >happened. As you pointed out, sometimes governments or even
 >individuals do bad things; sometimes even accidental things. The
 >real conspiracy starts when there is a concerted effort to hide
 >the truth.

Yes, I agree.

 >Moving on, you wrote:

 >>>>No institution in this imperfect world has ever not done
 >>>>something bad, but we do not define, say, the Catholic Church by
 >>>>its problems with pedophilic priests.

 >To which I replied:

 >>>Of course we do! The Catholic Church has known about these
 >>>problems for decades and has systematically made every attempt
 >>>to cover them up and keep it a secret. This has denied its
 >>>victims the right to recovery, both morally and legally. The
 >>>Catholic Church cover-up is one of the best examples of a
 >>>"conspiracy" that you could or I could have ever come up with!
 >>>Thanks!

 >Your response:

 >>Huh?  The Roman Catholic Church is to be defined as a conspiracy
 >>to perpetrate child molestation?

 >>I am speechless.  And so being, I drop out of the discussion.

 >That's certainly your right, Jerry. But make sure you are doing
 >it for the right reason. Never did I imply that the Roman
 >Catholic Church was a conspiracy to perpetrate child
 >molestation. YOU pointed out the fact that the crime was
 >occurring within the church, not me. I merely pointed out that
 >the church conspired to HIDE that fact. THAT's the conspiracy I
 >speak of; which is what most conspiracies are: To hide the
 >truth.

Roger, I am perfectly prepared to believe that you do not think
the Catholic Church exists to perpetrate conspiracies involving
the molestation of children.  But if you reread what you
responded to my words about the absurdity of defining the
Catholic Church in this fashion, you'll have to agree that you
definitely left yourself open on this one, and I couldn't let my
chance go by.

I know you're a good guy, and because I know that, I couldn't
resist ribbing you a little.

Cordially,

Jerry Clark










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   Apr > Apr 18

                    Re: TMP News: Weekly Briefing 4.12.00

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 22:56:57 -0400 (EDT)
Fwd Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 08:24:05 -0400
Subject: Re: TMP News: Weekly Briefing 4.12.00


 >Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2000 15:41:42 -0700
 >From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net>
 >Subject: Re: TMP News: Weekly Briefing 4.12.00
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>


 >Hello Roger, Jerry and Joe:

 >I don't want to get mixed up in a debate where I'm over my head,
 >but Roger brings up a question that has never been properly
 >answered to my satisfaction. i.e. Just what _is_ a conspiracy?

 >In law - where I have no expertise at all - I take it that a
 >conspiracy exists if two or more people plot out some crime, a
 >robbery perhaps.

 >They can be legally charged for that even if they never pull off
 >the crime itself - that worries me a bit!

 >It bothers me that the term is so vague. Suppose 3 or 4 military
 >or government types have or learn of a UFO sighting and simply
 >decide to keep it quiet for any plausible reason; to avoid
 >ridicule or excess paperwork for example.

 >Is that 'Conspiracy'?

 >Suppose a government agency secretly works on some elaborate
 >plan to raise taxes, and/or any number of unpopular and
 >questionable practices; but no single act is technically
 >illegal. Is that a conspiracy?

 >Frankly, I avoid the word since I cannot sit down and tell
 >anyone exactly what it _does_ mean.


Dear Lawrence of Hatch, Errol, Listers, Conspiracists, Paranoids
and Researchers - I hate it when people are consfused.  Allow me
to attempt a clarification.

This thread is fascinating, more for it's repeated use of a
number of words which are often bandied about here on UpDates by
Researchers and debunkers alike.  Fascinating words they are,
too.

Take for example the one you aksed about Lawrence. Merriam aksed
(when I aksed Merriam) me to see "Plot."  I wanted "conspiracy"
and they sent me to "plot."  So I went to "plot." There, I was
told that a plot was a piece of land in a cemetery. That was
their first choice.  After baying at the moon, I went down a few
lines and saw this: "a secret plan for accomplishing an evil or
unlawful end : INTRIGUE.  I was not about to continue to
"intrigue."

But wait, there's more.  I figured the Thesaurus may be of some
greater use. Cheeses, you go paranoid trying to find out what
this word means.  Merriam's Thesaurus said, "PLOT 2." Apparently
the Thesaurus thinks that a conspiracy is not one but two,
plots.  What a good word that.  "Plots."  Don't you think?

They went on to explain that conspiracy also meant, "cabal,
covin, intrigue, machination, practice, scheme and that the
words, "sedition, treason; disloyalty, faithlessness, falsity,
perfidiousness, perfidy, treacherousness, treachery were
related.  Now we are getting someplace.  Definitely definitive
definitions of the deft delusions of UFO and Abduction theorists
_and_ of those who sight and those who are abducted by, UFO's.
Or, by pelicans, the planet Venial or swamp gas.  Lucy, I'm
home!

Then we go to paranoid.  Merriam tells us that paranoids are
people with persecutory or grandiose delusions or people with
hallucinations or delusional jealousy.  Hmmmm.  Researchers
immediately came to mind.

There have been other words in this thread.  A few like "the"
and "and." I avoided the definitions for these, because when I
went to Ph.D. school, I was told these were too complicated for
the likes of most regular folk.  I tend to avoid these so as not
to embarrass the masses.

And last, are you aware that the word embarrassed stems from the
Spanish, (His Spanish, whatever) "Embarrassada?"  This word
means "pregnant."  I swear I didn't do it.

Bringing it all back home, during the discourse and dialog of
UFO and Abduction research, people talk about pregnant paranoid
plots.  I think.

So Larry, have I answered your questions profoundly and
completely?

Dr. Gesundt,
Paranoid, embarrassed and plotsing like a pelican
after feasting on silverfish.






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   Apr > Apr 18

                     Chemtrails - A Professional's View

From: GT McCoy <gtmccoy@harborside.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 20:02:50 -0700
Fwd Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 08:44:50 -0400
Subject: Chemtrails - A Professional's View


Hello all,

I had to answer this in a separate message, as there are some
issues that have to be addressed.

First let me say this: I am a former Professional Pilot, I am
still active, but not working as a Pro, however, a change in
career in 1997 necessitated by a layoff, and my family wanting
me to do something different. So I would be home more (among
other things).

I do not believe that there is a Chemtrail conspiracy. let's
look at the logistical nature of such a operation. At the very
least we need airplanes, large and lots of them,to calmly lay
"product" as it were, in the world's skies.

Where would these planes come from? The Boneyard, say Davis -
Monthan AFB in Arizona? Or Mojave in California? If they (who
ever 'they' are) chose to use civilian Aircraft.

What type of Aircraft? OK, jets obviously, but what type and in
what numbers? Well let's look at the numbers. Not one of the
most popular types of jets i.e. 737, MD-80 is employed in
meaningful numbers by the US Government . By "meaningful" I am
saying to be able to break-loose a squadron of C-9's from
transport and ambulance duties to go spray the public .

The nature of the application. I have: dropped slimy red mud on
burning trees from antique airplanes. I also have been a
contract pilot to: the DOE, US Army, DOD, BLM, USFS, the Loyal
Order of Taildraggers (defunct), and the USDA. The only other
thing that I have ever dispensed was an abortive attempt at
cloud seeding back in the 70's - I guess it worked, for the
skies opened and it rained for weeks - for the Washington State
Agricultural Department.

I have also worked for Agricultural Operators who sprayed crops,
as a representative and loader. Also, I have very good friends,
who I respect, that are on the cutting edge of technology when
it comes to Aerial Application. I hate to belabour the point,
and I am not bragging. Just stating my qualifications for what I
am about to say.

Using the jet engine is a lousy way of applying anything - you
have to deal with the exhaust temps for one, and to ingest a
chemical into the engine - as in a nozzle in the intake - means
shortening the life of the engine. If this is the case, then you
might find where and who is doing the overhauls for these
engines, and you might have a bullet from the 'smoking gun' if
you will.

It would be much simpler to use spray nozzles along the wing, or
a retractable boom of sorts. Again, there are the logistics and
design problems. Nobody to my knowledge has ever put a spray-rig
on, say, a 727 or 737. Conair in Abbotsford B.C. attempted to
use a 737 as an air tanker (water bomber) and were not
successful as of 98'(though they may have by now)

Use of military types i.e. KC 135, KC10, C130, C17, C 141, et al
can be identified rather easily. To the Chemtrail Folk, take a
picture - identify the aircraft - put it on the web.

Weather and Chemtrails. OK here I have to tell about myself
again: I have been certified by the NOAA as a weather observer I
took the same test that the regular weather service people took
(this was in the 70's and early 80's ) I set up two SAWRS or
Supplemental Aviation Weather Reporting Stations . All of this
has been replaced by Automated stations of dubious value.

Contrails are caused by the moisture in the jet's exhaust,
condensing out in the cold air of the higher altitudes. They are
due to temperature not altitude. I saw a buddy of mine's video
of a contrail behind his Twin Beech turbo prop at 1500 feet. -
in Alaska. At 50 below zero F. In the winter, especially, the
cold air aloft will cause contrails to be generated down to as
low as fl 180 (18,000 feet) with regularity.

Also, if you have conditions that are stable such as a cold
Arctic airmass with high pressure aloft, Contrails will linger
and spread out slowly. No upper winds to break them up.

Also, stable conditions exist in the summer with warm air being
the factor here. The cold air being higher up, Contrails will be
generated at higher altitude. But, the same factors apply as
before, no or little wind - slow dissipation.

Now for the Pilot side of the equation. Where do you suppose the
pilot pool is that does the deed? We are experiencing a
shortfall in the military and things are bit tight in the
private sector too. Also, if there was mass spraying by large
aircraft, unaccountable to anyone, I guarantee you the alphabet
soup organizations in aviation would howl like a mashed cat and
fight like a cornered weasel over this one!

Anyway, this is what I know. I didn't call names and I told the
truth.


GT McCoy

P.S. I've had enough strange and unbelievable stuff happen to me
over the years to know: things aren't what they seem, that
anyone who says" I'm from the FAA, IRS, and I'm here to help."
is immediately suspect, and that there is a "God who is there."
(I also believe in the fallen nature of the human heart.)









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                    Re: TMP News: Weekly Briefing 4.12.00

From: Joe Murgia <Ufojoe1@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 23:38:13 -0400 (EDT)
Fwd Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 08:48:48 -0400
Subject: Re: TMP News: Weekly Briefing 4.12.00


 >Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 11:48:33 -0500
 >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >Subject: Re: TMP News: Weekly Briefing 4.12.00
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>


There have been a couple of mainstream articles on chemtrails
but the fact that the lazy ass press is ignoring it means
nothing as you should know. I still can't believe you wrote
that.

Here's an example:

In 1999:

The University of Arizona did a study on whether or not mediums
can actually talk to the dead or get information about a subject
(person getting the reading who wanted to contact a deceased
loved one) that they had no way (Besides some type of psychic
ability) of knowing from normal means.

 From the study:

..."One of the mediums gave 125 items of information during the
sitting, asked five questions and returned an accuracy rating of
more than 80 percent"...

..."The possibility of statistical coincidence in these
experiments is about one in 10 million..."

The Arizona Wildcat covered these experiments. That's the
school's newspaper. As far as I know, not one mainstream
newspaper covered this scientific study. What does that mean?
That the evidence is bogus? No. It means our press sucks. Plain
and simple.

The press is scared enough when doing UFO stories. Imagine what
they think of some conspiracy chemtrail story?

Also, as Paul asked, have you talked to or interviewed any
witnesses? I haven't, so I remain in the middle. I don't know if
it's real or not but I'm willing to keep reading about evidence
collected.

I take it back. I did have email contact with remote viewer Lyn
Buchahan. I detailed his chemtrail experience earlier. He was
pissed at whoever was flying those planes. And as I said
earlier, he is very conservative (Not a crank) when it comes to
stuff like that. AND, he's a military guy who constantly defends
them and their keeping of certain secrets. Obviously not this
one. If it exsists.

Joe in Tampa







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   Apr > Apr 18

                  Re: Reed Hoax - Stop Kicking a Dead Alien

From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 00:29:20 -0400 (EDT)
Fwd Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 08:52:03 -0400
Subject: Re: Reed Hoax - Stop Kicking a Dead Alien


 >Date: Sat, 01 Apr 2000 18:11:25 -0800
 >From: Royce J. Myers III <ufowatchdog@earthlink.net>
 >Subject: Reed Hoax - Stop Kicking a Dead Alien
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >Below you'll find an e-mail sent to CAUS from none other than
 >one half of the team of Jonathan Reed and Robert Raith.

 >A bit of advice to Reed and Raith: Quit while you're not ahead.

 >When will they ever get the message that no one is going to pay
 >them to lie. Reed and Raith have been given many, many
 >opportunities to prove their story.

 >Do ufology a favor, go away...

 >SOURCE: CAUS Updates <www.caus.org>
 >================<>================
 >E-MAIL HIGHLIGHTS:

 >In reference to your inquiry about Jonathan Reed and his
 >encounter: We have gathered our own team of people who are
 >willing to stand together and tell the truth regarding all of
 >the facts relating to the case.

Define truth. According to Reed and Raith you don't have even
have to have the purported credentials that they claimed to have
in the first place.

 >Considering the recent events and controversy relating to Dr.
 >Reed speaking at the International UFO Congress/Conference in
 >Laughlin NV; it really wouldn't surprise me if Jonathan decided
 >to never again speak publicly in this country.

Yawn, he will find some audience some where that will gulliably
believe his tale. Except, he will probably be claiming that that
the laughlin conference was really a plot by the evil government
to personally discredit him.

Never mind that he did an absolutly wonderful job of shooting
himself in the foot.

 >Jonathan Reed was invited to speak and tell his story. He did
 >this - with the assurance from members and organizers of the
 >conference that he wouldn't be attacked for his right to tell
 >his story, and to bring new information into the light for
 >everyone to see. Unfortunately, this was not how things were at
 >all handled. After speaking to a supportive audience of well
 >over 700 people, Jonathan was then subjected to personal
If true, we have an audience of 700 gulliable lap dogs who would
believe anything including the flat earth theory.

 >attacks, not from the audience who truly appreciated his honesty
 >in coming forward, but from members of the conference heads,
 >itself.

They should have got off their butt and done this before the
conference, not during or after.

 >Demands were made and postured relating to subjecting Dr. Reed
 >to a physical examination against his will, to substantiate
 >claims by others that he wasn't shot in the shoulder. People
 >said that if he in fact didn't expose himself to this
 >examination, the congress wouldn't back his claims and wouldn't
 >consider his encounter valid.

Since his own supplied credentials did not check out, why does
anybody think an alleged bullet wound would check out. Naturally
he would not take off his shirt. It would be graphic proof of what did
not happen.

 >This sounds to me like just short of: Rape and/or Extortion!

No, it sounds like people asking for verification of a story and
it is not being supplied. Interesting by their standards, asking
for verification/proof of a story is rape and extortion.


Cheers,
Robert








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               Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947

From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 02:10:15 -0400 (EDT)
Fwd Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 09:00:20 -0400
Subject: Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947


 >Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 09:50:45 -0800
 >From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman@psln.com>
 >Subject: Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2000 21:29:00 +0200
 >>From: Asgeir W. Skavhaug <asge-s@online.no>
 >>Subject: Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947
 >>To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >>Well, Ed, I'm still waiting for the answers to the following
 >>questions:

 >The MP is not feeling well but I'll try to answer these
 >questions as best I can from what he has written me.

One is to assume that you are still dealing with a nameless,
faceless person who has contacted you on the Internet. Bottom
Line, Ed, go meet/interview him in person and get a copy of his
service record.

I suspect that when you breach the possibility of meeting and
interviewing him in person, he will suddenly have some life
threatening disease, or iron clad excuse why you can't meet.
Hope I am wrong.

Cheers, Robert








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                    Re: TMP News: Weekly Briefing 4.12.00

From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net>
Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 01:18:31 -0700
Fwd Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 09:02:51 -0400
Subject: Re: TMP News: Weekly Briefing 4.12.00


 >Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 09:21:37 -0400
 >From: Steven Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
 >Subject: Re: TMP News: Weekly Briefing 4.12.00
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2000 15:41:42 -0700
 >>From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net>
 >>Subject: Re: TMP News: Weekly Briefing 4.12.00
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 ><snip>

 >>Hello Roger, Jerry and Joe:

 >>I don't want to get mixed up in a debate where I'm over my head,
 >>but Roger brings up a question that has never been properly
 >>answered to my satisfaction. i.e. Just what _is_ a conspiracy?

<snip>

 >Larry

 >WHAT!! You want us to "agree" on the definitions of the
 >terminology we use? <g>

 >I believe that if two or more people "conspire" to commit an
 >illegal act, then it can be called a "conspiracy" in the legal
 >sense of the word.  This could involve a well planned bank
 >heist, or just two guys in a bar who (after a few drinks) decide
 >to rob the local gas station for more drinking money.

I once knew a guy from Texas, who went back there and did
exactly that, ran out of money in some bar and "borrowed" some
from a business down the street. They locked him up for a good
while. They made him harvest turnips or something while in jail.

Best wishes

- Larry Hatch








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                    Re: TMP News: Weekly Briefing 4.12.00

From: Steven W. Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 06:43:31 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 09:05:04 -0400
Subject: Re: TMP News: Weekly Briefing 4.12.00


 >Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 20:07:19 -0500
 >From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net>
 >Subject: Re: TMP News: Weekly Briefing 4.12.00
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >>Date: Wed, 17 Apr 1996 18:41:11 -0500
 >>Fwd Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 20:30:19 -0400
 >>Subject: Re: TMP News: Weekly Briefing 4.12.00

<snip>

 >>I am speechless. And so being, I drop out of the discussion.

 >That's certainly your right, Jerry. But make sure you are doing
 >it for the right reason. Never did I imply that the Roman
 >Catholic Church was a conspiracy to perpetrate child
 >molestation. YOU pointed out the fact that the crime was
 >occurring within the church, not me. I merely pointed out that
 >the church conspired to HIDE that fact. THAT's the conspiracy I
 >speak of; which is what most conspiracies are: To hide the
 >truth.


There is, of course, a difference between conspiring to hide the
truth and attempting to limit adverse publicity. I have not seen
proof of the Catholic Church withholding evidence from
authorities, but it is also evident that they would prefer to
avoid discussion of the subject in public.

This entire discussion is beginning to remind me of stories that
farmers told in western Maryland, who were convinced that their
drought had been caused by other farming communities to the west
who had stolen their rain. While working as a reporters in that
region, I would hear tales of farmers who would look up in the
sky and see small unidentified planes flying among the clouds
that seemed to dissapate before passing overhead. The story
developed that these planes were "seeding" the clouds and their
rain was being dropped on farmland in eastern West Virginia and
southern Pennsylvannia, and they wanted the "Government" to do
something about it. Of course, there were others who believed
that the "Government" was behind it in the first place.

What was interesting was the fact that farmers in eastern West
Virginia told the same story, and believed that their failed
crops had been caused by the farmers to the west of them, who
had obviously stolen their rain from the sky... and so on... and
so on.

The fact was that the entire region was in drought conditions
and the farmers were simply trying to find some logical entity
to blame for their current situation. I suppose it serves some
psychological need to find a focus for your problems, and if you
get a group of people together with similar problems the risk of
rumor development runs high. After a while these rumors take on
a life of their own, and they become the "urban myth" of the
day.

It was indicated in an earlier post that people had become sick
after coming into contact with material that had fallen from the
sky after a contrail had been seen overhead. If this has been
investigated it would be of interest to see the results of that
investigation, including medical reports as to the unusual
nature of the illness. To prove that there is more to this than
rumor we will need far more linkage between the alleged cause
and alleged effect.

My 2-cents.

Steve








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   Apr > Apr 18

                          AA Film - Expert Opinions

From: Philip Mantle <pmquest@dial.pipex.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 11:57:45 +0000
Fwd Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 09:06:19 -0400
Subject: AA Film - Expert Opinions


Dear colleagues,

Please be aware that I am still looking for expert opinions on
the alien autopsy film from the following:

1. FX artists.
2. Film/photo experts.
3. Medical professionals.

Such opinions of course can be either for or against the
validity of the film.

As I'm not on the list I'd appreciate it if anyone has any
information to contact me direct at:

pmquest@dial.pipex.com

Thank you once again for your kind assistance with this request
and please feel free to forward this mesage on to others.

Yours Sincerely,

Philip Mantle








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               Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947

From: Roger Prokic <rprokic@pobox.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 08:10:00 -0600
Fwd Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 15:07:21 -0400
Subject: Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947


 >Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 09:50:45 -0800
 >From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman@psln.com>
 >Subject: Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2000 21:29:00 +0200
 >>From: Asgeir W. Skavhaug <asge-s@online.no>
 >>Subject: Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947
 >>To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >>Well, Ed, I'm still waiting for the answers to the following
 >>questions:

 >The MP is not feeling well but I'll try to answer these
 >questions as best I can from what he has written me.

 >>1. It was reported by nurse(s), that the creatures had 4
 >>fingers. You just saw one creature as it was being loaded into a
 >>truck - maybe at bad light. Fingers may be difficult to count at
 >>some distance, and finger aren't really the first thing to
 >>observe in an aircraft crash - is it?. So, how can you then be
 >>so sure it had 6 fingers - as in the Santilli film - which is an
 >>important observation, if it's true?

 >He said clearly and without doubt that he saw and counted six
 >fingers.

 >>2. Did you see any shoes? Did you see whether it / they had six
 >>toes as well? (It's reasonable to think that they also had six
 >>toes....maybe?)

 >The feet were covered with a silver or metal boot/ sock.

 >>3. The Santilli film 'gives the indication' that the creature
 >>being autopsied - and looking 'similar' to the creature you
 >>'caught a glimpse of' - is 'very much' human-like, and looks (to
 >>me) more or less like a dead human suffering from some kind of
 >>syndrome - or it's just a dummy. (Thus it might be just a
 >>filmed, ordinary autopsy of such a person, intended for medical
 >>use - and really not a hoax at all; a _special_ autopsy film
 >>falling into wrong hands - Santilli's!) In addition, it looks
 >>>like being a woman, when looking into the region of the genitals
 >>(and we would expect to find the creature's genitals there as
 >>well....).

 >He didn't see any genitals.  The creatures were all clothed.

 >>4. Can you be sure it / they weren't (crash test) dummies? Did
 >>you see any 'blood' on the site?

 >They were the creatures shown on Fox, not crash dummies or
 >deformed humans. Any one who watches the AA carefully will soon
 >realize that the creature on that table is not a deformed human.
 >The MP has watched the AA.

 >>5. Were there any discussions about possible non-normal
 >>radioactivity, bacteria or viruses, and to take any precautions
 >>against this, before  you came to the site? (Or, did the
 >>officials expect what to find? The DoD were there 'pretty'
 >>fast?)

 >He has no knowledge of any of that.

 >>6. Is it possible - today - to find the rocks where the disc
 >>had crashed? The rocks should be very badly damaged - unless the
 >>craft were very light in construction, and had low speed when it
 >>hit the rocks.

 >The craft had very little mass.  NM is a very big place and the
 >MP had no idea of where he was, only the general direction and
 >the estimated time it took to get there which was 2 hours and 45
 >min.

 >>7. The 'stingray design' is a 'new approach', and should be
 >>further described, sketched, and brought available to alle the
 >>List members - as fast as possible!

 >I think sting ray is descriptive enough.  Arnold saw a sting ray
 >craft or similar design didn't he?

 >>8. Were there any medical personnel at the site, giving first
 >>aid, and telling whether the creatures were dead or not? Someone
 >>with medical experience must have taken the decision about this
 >>on-site.

 >Yes the MP saw medical personnel at the site and ambulances, two
 >of them.  Two tents were also visible.

 >>9. Did it look like that  the officers and other officials at
 >>the site were 'expecting' this visit in some way or other; that
 >>they were in some way prepared to handle the situation should it
 >>occur?

 >The site was organized when he arrived (remember he was only
 >there for three to four hours; only until the craft was loaded
 >on the flatbed) and yes it looked like they knew what they were
 >doing as far as he could tell.

Ed, when's this April Fool's joke going to end.  Now, you are
speaking for the MP as if he's your father or someone you have
known forever.

I don't buy it.  Add something different to this other than what
you've seen on the AA hoax film, or drop it.

Errol, this is very painful.  We're being tortured by BS and
it's getting out of hand!  Can we vote to kill this thread?



Roger Prokic
Principal RF Systems Engineer
Ball Aerospace & Technologies Corp.
Boulder, Colorado USA
-=[ sent from a Palm IIIxe computer & Multimail Pro v3.1C ]=-






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   Apr > Apr 18

                   Re: Chemtrails - A Professional's View

From: Marty Murray <mmurray31@home.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 10:32:06 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 15:11:15 -0400
Subject: Re: Chemtrails - A Professional's View


 >Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 20:02:50 -0700
 >From: GT McCoy <gtmccoy@harborside.com>
 >Subject: Chemtrails - A Professional's View
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

GT McCoy wrote:

 >Use of military types i.e. KC 135, KC10, C130, C17, C 141, et al
 >can be identified rather easily. To the Chemtrail Folk, take a
 >picture - identify the aircraft - put it on the web.

I agree with Mr. McCoy here. If people are witnessing these
aircraft laying chemtrails, hour after hour, day after day, then
let's see some photos. Let's see some video of these operations.
Surely if this is being done so blatantly then video and
photographic evidence of it can't be all that hard to obtain.

Take care,

Marty









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                    Re: TMP News: Weekly Briefing 4.12.00

From: Brian Straight <brians@mdbs.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 09:55:52 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 15:14:48 -0400
Subject: Re: TMP News: Weekly Briefing 4.12.00


 >Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 11:48:33 -0500
 >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >Subject: Re: TMP News: Weekly Briefing 4.12.00
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

<snip>

 >Obviously, questions remain, as they so often do. But as with
 >the chemtrails question, nothing justifies a rush to the most
 >paranoid possible explanations.

 >Jerry Clark

This debate inspired me to visit a couple of chemtrails sites. I
wish I'd kept the URLs. One investigator (pro chemtrails) had
taken pictures of the sky showing 'chemtrails'. He had then gone
the extra step, and had linked them to commercial flights
passing over the area. He concluded that many 'chemtrails' were
apparently not really such, but were instead the relatively
benign exhaust of commercial air traffic. I applaud that kind of
investigation. Working with the data is usually much more
rewarding than speculation.

Brian








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                   Re: Chemtrails - A Professional's View

From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 11:05:05 -0400 (EDT)
Fwd Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 15:16:30 -0400
Subject: Re: Chemtrails - A Professional's View


 >From: GT McCoy <gtmccoy@harborside.com>
 >Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 20:02:50 -0700
 >Fwd Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 08:44:50 -0400
 >Subject: Chemtrails - A Professional's View

Thanks, friend.  Finally, something worth filing away.

There has also been a lot of discussion about the subject of
increasing aircraft contrails (due, presumably, to more air
traffic) by professional astronomers at any observatory. This
has become a particularly acute problem in the Southwestern US.
Observing the Sun has become increasingly difficult at major
solar observatories.

Clear skies,

Bob Young








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               Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947

From: Ralf Zeigermann <kag15@dial.pipex.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 20:48:59 +0100
Fwd Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 19:27:55 -0400
Subject: Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947


 >Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 08:10:00 -0600
 >From: Roger Prokic <rprokic@pobox.com>
 >Subject: Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >Errol, this is very painful.  We're being tortured by BS and
 >it's getting out of hand!  Can we vote to kill this thread?

Why? I'm actually enjoying the whole thread! Come on, Roger:
It's fun!!

Cheers,
Ralf

--
Ralf's 3D-Site
Infos about the German
Sf series 'Raumpatrouille',
a Bryce-Gallery, models to
download and more!

http://www.kag15.dial.pipex.com/








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                    Re: TMP News: Weekly Briefing 4.12.00

From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@rocler.qc.ca>
Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 15:58:17 -0700
Fwd Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 19:30:07 -0400
Subject: Re: TMP News: Weekly Briefing 4.12.00


 >Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 10:06:31 -0500
 >From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >Subject: Re: TMP News: Weekly Briefing 4.12.00
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 23:38:13 -0400 (EDT)
 >>From: Joe Murgia <Ufojoe1@aol.com>
 >>Subject: Re: TMP News: Weekly Briefing 4.12.00
 >>To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >>>Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 11:48:33 -0500
 >>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >>>Subject: Re: TMP News: Weekly Briefing 4.12.00
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

<snip>

 >I'm afraid I just don't see the connection here, between an
 >obscure parapsychological experiment and a (claimed) mass
 >assault on the well-being of the whole population of North
 >America.

Just  for the fun of it:

Are you a smoker Jerry?

Legal I mean: tobacco...

P.S. I'm beginning to enjoy this.

Serge Salvaille







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               No UFO Sightings, But Area 51 Now In Full View

From: Todd Lemire <tlemire@home.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 18:20:42 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 19:39:13 -0400
Subject: No UFO Sightings, But Area 51 Now In Full View

Source: The Boston Globe

http://www.boston.com:80/dailyglobe2/109/nation/No_UFO_sightings_but_Area_51_now
_in_full_view+.html

April 4, 2000

No UFO sightings, but Area 51 now in full view

By Martha Waggoner, Associated Press, 4/18/2000

RALEIGH, N.C. - The truth is out there - on the Web. Photos of
Area 51, the super-secret Air Force test site in Nevada that has
longtantalized UFO and conspiracy buffs and fans of "The
X-Files," are being posted on the Internet.

"This is the first glimpse into the most secret training and
testing facility for the Air Force," said John Hoffman,
president of Aerial Images Inc. of Raleigh.

The company planned to post five images of the site, divided
into four frames each, in collaboration with Microsoft, Kodak,
Digital Equipment Corp., Autometric Inc., and the Russian agency
Sovinformsputnik. The partners launched a Russian satellite from
Kazakhstan in 1998 to map Earth's surface and Area 51. An
open-skies agreement signed in 1992 by 24 nations, including the
United States and Russia, made the effort possible.

The Air Force only recently acknowledged that Groom Dry Lake Air
Force Base even exists. The 8,000-square-mile base is 75 miles
northwest of Las Vegas, in the arid, rugged Nellis Range.

Beginning with a U-2 spy plane in the 1950s, the base has been
the testing ground for a host of top-secret aircraft, including
the SR-71 Blackbird and, more recently, the F-117A stealth
fighter and B-2 stealth bomber.

The base's airspace is restricted; aircraft are not allowed to
fly over it. But satellite overflights are allowed as part of an
agreement to verify arms-control compliance. Among UFO
aficionados, it has been known as Area 51, the base's
designation on old Nevada test site maps. Some believe that
unidentified flying objects from other worlds are hidden at the
base, where their parts are copied for US prototypes. The
images, with resolution good enough to distinguish a car from a
truck, are better than earlier telephoto shots from the nearby
mountains. The only other known image purportedly was shot by a
satellite in the 1960s. It is much fuzzier.

"There are runways, there are buildings, there are buses, there
are test sites, but there aren't any little green men or
supersecret aircraft to be seen," Hoffman said of the new
photos.

Several government agencies are aware of the images and haven't
responded, said Hoffman, 52, a Vietnam veteran who recently
retired from the National Guard after 23 years. "I've had no
feedback from anybody that indicates anybody gives a hoot," he
said.

An Air Force spokeswoman would not comment yesterday on any
security concerns about the images.

"We acknowledge having an operating site there, and the work is
classified," spokeswoman Gloria Cales said. The work involves
"operations critical to the US military and the country's
security."

Aerial Images, at www.terraserver.com, planned to offer a link to
the Area 51 pages. Viewing the images is free; downloading them
costs $8.95 and up. Kodak will print photographs for $20 to $30.

The images show craters, some seemingly formed by something
dropped from the sky, others possibly by something coming out of
the ground. There are hundreds of buildings, living quarters,
tennis courts, a baseball field, a track and a swimming pool.

There are no paved roads and no parking lots; buses are the only
visible vehicles, raising the question of how employees get to
and from work. Unpaved roads disappear into cliffsides,
suggesting a possible underground network. A shrouded aircraft
is visible on a ramp, unusual considering the Air Force knows
when Russian satellites are overhead, Hoffman said.

Walter Andrus Jr., international director of the Mutual UFO
Network, based in Seguin, Texas, seemed to have a hard time
believing the object of so much secrecy and discussion would
soon be available on the Web.

Even Chris Carter, creator of 'The X-Files' apparently was
skeptical when Hoffman contacted him. Some of the show's
favorite themes are UFOs and secret government activities, and
one of its mantras is 'The truth is out there'.



Todd Lemire
Michigan UFO CENTRAL
http://members.home.net/tlemire/UFOCENTRAL.html
--
"The reason why the flying-saucer mystery has been-to put it
mildly-so exasperating, lies in the fact that we are all blind
men, nor can we hope to meet a sighted traveler who can help us.
But perhaps it is the beginning of knowledge to recognize our
blindness."

Aime' Michel - "Flying Saucers and the Straight Line Mystery"







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               Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947

From: Dave Bowden <grafikfx@netscapeonline.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 23:07:15 +0100
Fwd Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 19:42:13 -0400
Subject: Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947

 >Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 08:10:00 -0600
 >From: Roger Prokic <rprokic@pobox.com>
 >Subject: Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 09:50:45 -0800
 >>From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman@psln.com>
 >>Subject: Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >Ed, when's this April Fool's joke going to end.  Now, you are
 >speaking for the MP as if he's your father or someone you have
 >known forever.

 >I don't buy it.  Add something different to this other than what
 >you've seen on the AA hoax film, or drop it.

 >Errol, this is very painful.  We're being tortured by BS and
 >it's getting out of hand!  Can we vote to kill this thread?

Absolutely, the man has been given every opportunity to come
across with answers to some very good questions and what we get
in return carefully directs us back to the AA footage. Remember
this thread is not about the AA footage but about whether or not
this MP actually exists. Once that has been verified we can take
it from there.

I add my voice, put up or shut up.

Dave.








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               Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947

From: Ed Gehrman <egehrman@psln.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 14:58:57 -0800
Fwd Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 19:45:50 -0400
Subject: Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947

Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 08:10:00 -0600
To: Roger Prokic <rprokic@pobox.com>
Subject: Re: An MP's Story - Roswell, NM, July 3rd, 1947
To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>


Roger,

You wrote:

 >Ed, when's this April Fool's joke going to end.

I realize it's hard to believe but this is not an April Fool's
joke. Everything I've written about the MP's Story is the way
it happened.

 >Now, you are speaking for the MP as if he's your father or
 >someone you have known forever.

No! The MP has given very specific answers to my questions to
him and I am using this information to answer these questions.
He isn't up to it right now.

 >I don't buy it. Add something different to this other than what
 >you've seen on the AA hoax film, or drop it.

I was trying to clear up a few unanswered questions that we
didn't want folks to think the MP was trying to avoid.  He is
not well right now. I wish that were not a fact but it is.

 >Errol, this is very painful.  We're being tortured by BS and
 >it's getting out of hand!  Can we vote to kill this thread?

Whatever you may think this is not BS.  We can put the MP's
story on the back burner.  I have nothing more to add right now
but will be glad to answer questions.









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                   Re: Chemtrails - A Professional's View

From: Screen Name <addressknown@ebk>
Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 19:52:24 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 20:26:24 -0400
Subject: Re: Chemtrails - A Professional's View


Errol please do not submit my name I just had to voice
this once...Thanks in advance

 >Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 20:02:50 -0700
 >From: GT McCoy <gtmccoy@harborside.com>
 >Subject: Chemtrails - A Professional's View
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >Hello all,

 >I had to answer this in a separate message, as there are some
 >issues that have to be addressed.

 >First let me say this: I am a former Professional Pilot, I am
 >still active, but not working as a Pro, however, a change in
 >career in 1997 necessitated by a layoff, and my family wanting
 >me to do something different. So I would be home more (among
 >other things).

<snip>


Greetings

Contrails (condensation)  Chemtrails (chemical dispersion)


True Scene

Two identical airplanes KC 135's, same altitude (judged by
airplane's viewable size, flying to intercept paths to form 'X'.
One is producing a steady stream while the other has not crossed
path and produced no stream (neither Chem nor Contrail).

At about the proximity of the beginning of other 'X' second
plane starts streaming, creating the 'X'. Now, three more
airplanes join the picture and together create a chessboard
(noticed I didn't say "checkers" ;) ) pattern.

Within two hours a forecast beautifully sunny, clear day is
engulfed by a dark grey, lingering cloud.

I? I hold a B.S in Chemistry for 9 years, been around MIL, and
capable of commonsense. Currently work in the high tech world
(was my first love) and have been watching the skies for 40
years.

This one is not that easy to explain away.










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                   Re: Chemtrails - A Professional's View

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>
Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 20:39:44 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 20:39:44 -0400
Subject: Re: Chemtrails - A Professional's View




From: Moderator, UFO UpDates - Toronto

I think the time has come to call closure on this
particular thread - no more Chemtrails, please.

For those who are interested in the subject, the
anonymous poster of the last message on the topic
suggested, in a follow-up, the following site:

http://www.contrailconnection.com


Thank you for your understanding,

Errol Bruce-Knapp







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                    Re: TMP News: Weekly Briefing 4.12.00

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 19:12:51 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 20:41:51 -0400
Subject: Re: TMP News: Weekly Briefing 4.12.00



 >Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 15:58:17 -0700
 >From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@rocler.qc.ca>
 >Subject: Re: TMP News: Weekly Briefing 4.12.00
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 10:06:31 -0500
 >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >>Subject: Re: TMP News: Weekly Briefing 4.12.00
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>


Serge,

 >>I'm afraid I just don't see the connection here, between an
 >>obscure parapsychological experiment and a (claimed) mass
 >>assault on the well-being of the whole population of North
 >>America.

 >Just for the fun of it:

 >Are you a smoker, Jerry?

Nope to both kinds of smoke.  Thanks for your interest.

Cheers,

Jerry Clark










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                 New Radio Telescope For SETI Research Only

From: Nick Balaskas <nikolaos@yorku.ca>
Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 20:36:22 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time)
Fwd Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 20:45:26 -0400
Subject: New Radio Telescope For SETI Research Only


Hi Everyone.

Tomorrow is a big day for the SETI community (see the forwarded
e-mail below for details).

I wish them luck in their search for E.T.I. but even bigger and
better equipment of the wrong technology will not necessarily
improve their chances of success...

Nick Balaskas
_____________

World'S Largest SETI 'Scope: April 19 News Briefing In California

First prototype for new SETI telescope to be unveiled; completed
telescope will be the world's most advanced tool to seek signals
from civilizations elsewhere in our galaxy

WHO:    The SETI Institute and the University of California-
         Berkeley Radio Astronomy Laboratory will host a joint
news conference and presentation to discuss advances in science
and technology leading to  the developmentof the One Hectare
Telescope, or 1hT.

WHAT:   Once completed, the 1hT will be the world's largest
         telescope devoted to the Search for Extra-Terrestrial
Intelligence (SETI) and among the largest radio telescopes in
the world for any purpose. The 1hT will also be a powerful
instrument for conducting more traditional research in radio
astronomy, such as the study of star forming regions and
pulsars.

At the news conference, Institute and University scientists will
activate and steer the first 1hT prototype: an array of seven,
12-foot-diameter satellite-style dishes developed from a
combination of mass-market and special-purpose technology.

Scientists will use the prototype to get a head start on
developing software that they hope will shield the full
telescope array from increasing interference due to
telecommunications satellites. The signals received by the seven
dishes will be recorded and processed off-line in a number of
different ways to optimize the final design of the full
telescope.

WHEN:   Wednesday, April 19, 11:00 a.m.  Lunch will be offered.

WHERE:  Russell Reservation
         4927 Happy Valley Road
         Lafayette, CA  94549-2431
         (Map available upon request)

NOTE:   Parking extremely limited on site; no admittance until
         10:30 a.m.
         Full media packet available on April 18.
         B-roll, color slides, high-resolution GIFs available on
         April 18.

CONTACTS:
Greg Klerkx                     Robert Sanders
SETI Institute                  University of California-Berkeley
Office: 650-960-4512            Office: 510-643-6998
Mobile: 415-816-2310            E-mail: rls@pa.urel.berkeley.edu
E-mail: gklerkx@seti.org








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                    Re: TMP News: Weekly Briefing 4.12.00

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 10:06:31 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 15:18:09 -0400
Subject: Re: TMP News: Weekly Briefing 4.12.00


 >Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 23:38:13 -0400 (EDT)
 >From: Joe Murgia <Ufojoe1@aol.com>
 >Subject: Re: TMP News: Weekly Briefing 4.12.00
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >>Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 11:48:33 -0500
 >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >>Subject: Re: TMP News: Weekly Briefing 4.12.00
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>


Joe,

 >In 1999:

 >The University of Arizona did a study on whether or not mediums
 >can actually talk to the dead or get information about a subject
 >(person getting the reading who wanted to contact a deceased
 >loved one) that they had no way (Besides some type of psychic
 >ability) of knowing from normal means.

 >From the study:

 >.."One of the mediums gave 125 items of information during the
 >sitting, asked five questions and returned an accuracy rating of
 >more than 80 percent"...

 >.."The possibility of statistical coincidence in these
 >experiments is about one in 10 million..."

 >The Arizona Wildcat covered these experiments. That's the
 >school's newspaper. As far as I know, not one mainstream
 >newspaper covered this scientific study. What does that mean?
 >That the evidence is bogus? No. It means our press sucks. Plain
 >and simple.

 >The press is scared enough when doing UFO stories. Imagine what
 >they think of some conspiracy chemtrail story?

I'm afraid I just don't see the connection here, between an
obscure parapsychological experiment and a (claimed) mass
assault on the well-being of the whole population of North
America.

Jerry Clark









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                    Re: TMP News: Weekly Briefing 4.12.00

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 13:34:08 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 15:22:08 -0400
Subject: Re: TMP News: Weekly Briefing 4.12.00


 >Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 22:12:52 -0700
 >From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@rocler.qc.ca>
 >Subject: Re: TMP News: Weekly Briefing 4.12.00
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 11:48:33 -0500
 >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >>Subject: Re: TMP News: Weekly Briefing 4.12.00
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>>Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2000 10:53:07 -0700
 >>>From: Paul Anderson <psa@direct.ca>
 >>>Subject: Re: TMP News: Weekly Briefing 4.12.00
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>


Serge,

 >Do you see any mainstream concerns about UFOs in general and
 >abductions in particular or is this to you an entirely different
 >issue?

An entirely different issue. UFOs and media are an interesting
subject with a vast and complex history which has little to do
with the present discussion.

 >Do you realize that this kind of argumentation has been used at
 >nauseam by debunkers against the authenticity of the UFO
 >phenomenon?

The UFO phenomenon has been widely reported in the mainstream
press.  If that kind of argument has been used by debunkers, I'm
afraid I don't know what they're talking about.

As a historian of the phenomenon, I can attest that views of the
UFOs from mainstream media and culture have changed over time,
from the open-minded to the resolutely skeptical. There are all
kinds of reasons for this, and sinister conspiracy is not one of
them.  No, Serge, I'm not accusing you personally of holding
such a view.

 >>Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2000 11:15:26 -0500
 >>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >>Subject: Re: TMP News: Weekly Briefing 4.12.00
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>>Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2000 13:47:29 -0500
 >>>From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net>
 >>>Subject: Re: TMP News: Weekly Briefing 4.12.00
 >>>To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >>The crimes -- and that's the right word -- Serge points to
 >>occurred in a wholly different historical context from the one
 >>we live in now.  They occurred either in a time of open
 >>institutional racism (the notorious Tuskegee experiments) or in
 >>the darkest days of the Cold War.  The exposure of these abuses
 >>shocked people, and it is highly unlikely that they will occur
 >>again.

 >Just two questions here:

 >1. Do you consider that Governments are hiding the truth to
 >their people concerning UFOs?  You know, this has been going for
 >nearly 55 years now.

I don't know that governments are hiding UFO secrets.  As I
remarked in another posting, a reasonable argument can be made
either way.

 >2. In the affirmative, could it be a crime?

Probably not. Secrecy about UFOs can be justified on national-
security grounds.  I personally oppose secrecy, but I don't find
it necessary to hold those who feel otherwise, and who may even
be keeping the secrets, to be criminals..

Jerry Clark








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                    Re: TMP News: Weekly Briefing 4.12.00

From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net>
Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 10:35:40 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 15:20:36 -0400
Subject: Re: TMP News: Weekly Briefing 4.12.00


 >From: Steven W. Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
 >Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 06:43:31 -0400
 >Fwd Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 09:05:04 -0400
 >Subject: Re: TMP News: Weekly Briefing 4.12.00

 >>Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 20:07:19 -0500
 >>From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net>
 >>Subject: Re: TMP News: Weekly Briefing 4.12.00
 >>To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
 >>>Date: Wed, 17 Apr 1996 18:41:11 -0500
 >>>Fwd Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 20:30:19 -0400
 >>>Subject: Re: TMP News: Weekly Briefing 4.12.00

 ><snip>

Previously, Jerry wrote:

 >>>I am speechless. And so being, I drop out of the discussion.

I replied:

 >>That's certainly your right, Jerry. But make sure you are doing
 >>it for the right reason. Never did I imply that the Roman
 >>Catholic Church was a conspiracy to perpetrate child
 >>molestation. YOU pointed out the fact that the crime was
 >>occurring within the church, not me. I merely pointed out that
 >>the church conspired to HIDE that fact. THAT's the conspiracy I
 >>speak of; which is what most conspiracies are: To hide the
 >>truth.

Steven now writes:

 >There is, of course, a difference between conspiring to hide the
 >truth and attempting to limit adverse publicity. I have not seen
 >proof of the Catholic Church withholding evidence from
 >authorities, but it is also evident that they would prefer to.


Hello, Steven!

Not to be unduly argumentative, the degree to which the guilty
party(s) try to "avoid discussion of the subject in public" is
really the key to whether it classifies as a conspiracy, I
think. For the Church to use its considerable power to discredit
the injured and hide questionable activities is the very
definition of a conspiracy. And it matters not whether the
Church withheld evidence from the "authorities" or the "public".
After all, the "authorities" are elected to represent the
public; in effect they are one and the same.

It is bad enough when the Catholic Church attempts to deceive
anyone about criminal activities within it's ranks. However, as
it relates to this list, for the aforementioned "authorities",
themselves, to deceive the very people that elected them is
possibly the worst form of conspiracy to betray the public
trust; say, like hiding info about UFO's?

Even if one wanted to argue that Tuskegee or the radiation
experiments or Iran Contra or Watergate or any other "misdeed"
by the government (to use Jerome's phrase) were accidents and/or
isolated violations by a group too small to be considered a
"conspiracy" by popular definition, there can be little argument
that it is not the role of our elected officials to perpetuate
non-disclosure of this information. For them to do so, or worse;
for them to go out of their way to discredit anyone that
attempts to pierce the veil of secrecy surrounding such
incidents, is the very stuff that drives "conspiracy nuts" to
the edge of distraction.

Why? Because evidence of a conspiracy that is real, obvious and
ignored simply adds fuel to the fires of imagined conspiracies
that were already burning in the back of someone's mind.
However, to point out the "imagined" as evidence that the "real"
doesn't exist is, in my opinion, more dangerous than letting the
nut have his say.

After all, how many men in the Tuskegee experiment were thought
of as "nuts" before their fears were validated? How many
soldiers will suffer from the effects of Agent Orange before the
"authorities" come clean? The list can go on and on and on.....

As I said, sometimes paranoia is simply a heightened state of
awareness.

Later,

Roger Evans








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              P3N Hot News: Pentagon Denies ETs In Its Programs

From: Blair Cummins <ufoblair@hotmail.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 20:28:23 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 08:31:18 -0400
Subject: P3N Hot News: Pentagon Denies ETs In Its Programs


[images at: http://www.fas.org/irp/overhead/groom.htm --ebk]

Greetings list -

Source: ParaNormlNews@aol.com

PARANORML NEWs NETWORK (P3N)
Pentagon: No ETs in Our Programs

Believe it or not, the Pentagon denied Tuesday that
extraterrestrials participate in classified U.S. military
programs.

Spokesman Ken Bacon was responding to reporters' questions about
Monday's Internet posting of the first detailed satellite images
of Area 51, the supersecret Air Force test site in Nevada that
UFO buffs think holds alien technology.

Asked if the Internet posting revealed military secrets, Bacon
said he was "not aware that any information was revealed that
compromised" military activities.

"Since Sputnik, we have operated in a world of overhead
surveillance, and we have had more than 40 years to learn how to
deal with overhead surveillance," he said.

Asked to confirm or deny whether alien spacecraft or anything
extraterrestrial has ever been stored at the facility, Bacon
didn't answer directly.

"I think I can say beyond a shadow of a doubt that we have no
classified program that relies on aliens from outer space," he
joked.

Raleigh-based Aerial Images Inc. - in collaboration with Kodak,
Digital Equipment Corp., Autometric Inc. and the Russian agency
Sovinformsputnik - posted five images of the hush-hush desert
proving ground on the Web at http://www.terraserver.com.

"This is the first glimpse into the most secret training and
testing facility for the Air Force," said John Hoffman,
president of Aerial Images.

---

Best regards,

- Blair Cummins
ufoblair@hotmail.com







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                      TMP News: Weekly Briefing 4.18.00

From: Paul Anderson <psa@direct.ca>
Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 21:16:19 -0700
Fwd Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 08:40:37 -0400
Subject: TMP News: Weekly Briefing 4.18.00


TMP NEWS
The E-News Service of The Millennium Project

http://persweb.direct.ca/psa

April 18, 2000

_____________________________



WEEKLY BRIEFING
4.18.00


A lot of space-related news this week, including more evidence
for possible life on (or in) Jupiter's moon Europa, a report
that the Mars Global Surveyor may have been intentionally
rotated to obtain new images of the Face on Mars last February,
incredible new images of the surface (and subsurface) of Mars,
the most distant object yet seen by astronomers and an odd
pulsating light out in deep space and more. Also, new satellite
images of the infamous Area 51 military testing range are now
available on the web, and attracting much media attention. Links
to these stories and more below.


INCREASING EVIDENCE THAT EUROPA LIVES
http://www.spacedaily.com/news/life-00p1.html

WAS MGS ROTATED OFF-NADIR TO IMAGE THE FACE ON MARS ON
FEBRUARY 17, 2000?
http://www.psrw.com/~markc/Articles/Nerbun_April2000/nerbun.html

NEW MARS IMAGES REVEAL EXOTIC LANDSCAPE
http://www.cnn.com/2000/TECH/space/04/11/mars.ice.ap/index.html

MARS IMAGES REVEAL ELEGANT POLARITY OF ICE CAPS
http://www.cnn.com/2000/TECH/space/03/09/mars.polar.caps/index.html

PEEK UNDER MARS' SURFACE REVEALS ANCIENT CHANNELS
http://www.cnn.com/2000/TECH/space/03/10/mars.interior/index.html

SPACECRAFT MOVES WITHIN 62 MILES OF ASTEROID
http://CNN.com/2000/TECH/space/04/14/near.update/index.html

ASTRONOMERS SPOT MOST DISTANT OBJECT EVER
http://CNN.com/2000/TECH/space/04/14/space.quasar.reut/index.html

CBS NEWS: WHY IS A LIGHT PULSING IN SPACE?
http://cbsnews.cbs.com/now/story/0%2C1597%2C182284-412%2C00.shtml

VOYAGES ACROSS THE UNIVERSE HAVE COME LIGHT YEARS CLOSER
http://www.newscientist.com/news/news_223420.html

SATELLITE IMAGES OF AREA 51 NOW AVAILABLE ON WEB
http://www.foxnews.com/national/0417/d_ap_0417_101.sml

REPORTS ON "WEIRD LIFE" ALMOST BETTER THAN FICTION
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2000/03/000331090958.htm

CHINESE TAKE GREAT LEAP
http://augustachronicle.com/stories/041800/tec_UX5102-7.shtml

ARCAEOLOGISTS REPORT NEW CHAMBERS AND TUNNELS UNDER
PYRAMIDS  IN EGYPT
http://www.cosmiverse.com/paranormal041402.html

_____________________________


See also the TMP web site for complete listings of news stories,
reports and related information and links:

http://persweb.direct.ca/psa

_____________________________


TMP News is the electronic news service of The Millennium
Project, providing weekly briefings of the latest relevant news
stories and reports, as well as information and updates on
TMP-related news and events. TMP News is edited by Paul Anderson
and published by TMP, and is available free by subscription; to
be added to or removed from the mailing list, send your request,
including "subscribe TMP News" or "unsubscribe TMP News" and
e-mail address to:

psa@direct.ca

For further information, submissions or inquiries, forward all
correspondence to:

THE MILLENNIUM PROJECT

Suite 202 - 2086 West 2nd Avenue
Vancouver, BC   V6J 1J4   Canada
Tel / Fax (Office): 604.731.8522
Tel (Cell): 604.727.1454
E-Mail: psa@direct.ca
Web: http://persweb.direct.ca/psa

_____________________________


� The Millennium Project, 2000








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                       Area 51 Web Site Not Responding

From: Steven L. Wilson Sr <Ndunlks@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 02:47:12 -0400 (EDT)
Fwd Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 08:44:04 -0400
Subject: Area 51 Web Site Not Responding


Area 51 Web Site Not Responding

By MARTHA WAGGONER
.c The Associated Press


RALEIGH, N.C. (AP) - Many Internet surfers ran into roadblocks
today when they tried to reach a Web site displaying the first
detailed satellite images to be made public of Area 51, the
supersecret Air Force test site that UFO buffs think is a
repository of alien technology.

Was it a combination of too many people trying to log on and
some hackers, as the company said? Or a case for "The X-Files"?

The photos of the Nevada test site don't show any readily
apparent signs of flying saucers or little green men among the
Air Force base buildings and roadways.

Raleigh-based Aerial Images Inc. - in collaboration with Kodak,
Digital Equipment Corp., Autometric Inc. and the Russian agency
Sovinformsputnik - posted five images of the hush-hush desert
proving ground on the Web on Monday.

"This is the first glimpse into the most secret training and
testing facility for the Air Force," said John Hoffman,
president of Aerial Images.

However, the partners' Web site, http://www.terraserver.com,
didn't respond much of the time today.

"The site is being hammered (by people trying to log on), and
hackers are attacking it," Hoffman said.

There were signs of hackers trying to penetrate the site's
firewall, the software designed to prevent unauthorized
outsiders from tampering with computer files. They couldn't
reach the data, but they were able to slow the system, Hoffman
said.

He noted that the Area 51 photos had attracted an estimated 3
million "page views" to the Web site since Monday morning,
compared with the normal usage of 700,000 to 800,000 per day.

Viewing the images is free; downloading them costs $8.95 and up.
Kodak will make prints for $20 to $30.

The Air Force only recently acknowledged that Area 51 - the
Groom Dry Lake Air Force Base - even exists. The
8,000-square-mile base is 75 miles northwest of Las Vegas, in
the rugged Nellis Range.

Beginning with the U-2 spy plane in the 1950s, the base has been
the testing ground for a host of top-secret aircraft, including
the SR-71 Blackbird, the F-117A stealth fighter and B-2 stealth
bomber.

The site is known as Area 51 among UFO aficionados because that
was the base's designation on old Nevada test site maps. Some
believe alien vehicles, unidentified flying objects, are hidden
at the base and their parts are copied for U.S. prototypes.

Aerial Images launched a Russian satellite in 1998 to map the
Earth's surface under an open-skies agreement signed in 1992 by
24 nations, including the United States and Russia.

The images have resolution good enough to distinguish a car from
a truck.

Several government agencies are aware of the new images and
haven't responded, said Hoffman, 52. "I've had no feedback from
anybody that indicates anybody gives a hoot," he said.

"We acknowledge having an operating site there, and the work is
classified," Air Force spokeswoman Gloria Cales said. The work
involves "operations critical to the U.S. military and the
country's security."

The images show hundreds of buildings including living quarters,
tennis courts, a baseball field, a track and a swimming pool,
plus craters in the ground.

Visible roads are not paved and there are no parking lots; buses
are the only visible vehicles. Some of the roads appear to run
into cliffs, suggesting an underground network.

Chris Carter, creator of "The X-Files," apparently was skeptical
when Hoffman told him of the satellite images. Some of the
show's favorite themes are UFOs and secret government
activities.

"He clearly didn't believe me," Hoffman said. "From his tone,
you could tell he didn't believe me that we had Area 51 and we
had the whole area
covered."

On the Net:

Air Force: http://www.airforce.com

Area 51 Resources: http://www.nauticom.net/users/ata/resources.html

UFO fans: http://www.ufomind.com/area51

AP-NY-04-18-00 1534EDT

Copyright 2000 The Associated Press. The information contained in the AP news
report may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or otherwise distributed
without the prior written authority of The Associated Press.  All active
hyperlinks have been inserted by AOL.

[Try http://www.fas.org/irp/overhead/groom.htm  --ebk]






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   Apr > Apr 19

             Argentine Cosmic Array To Explore Birth Of Universe

From: Steven L. Wilson Sr <Ndunlks@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 03:01:41 -0400 (EDT)
Fwd Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 08:46:53 -0400
Subject: Argentine Cosmic Array To Explore Birth Of Universe


Argentine cosmic array to explore birth of universe

By Brian Winter


BUENOS AIRES, April 18 (Reuters) - Construction has begun in
Argentina on the world's biggest cosmic ray observatory which
will scour the heavens for possible clues on how the universe
began, scientists said on Tuesday.

Some 1,600 self-operating optical telescopes scattered across a
complex 30 times the area of Paris will be paired with a site in
Utah to seek and measure ``storms'' of cosmic rays -- which have
the highest energy levels of any known particle in the universe.

The binational Pierre Auger Observatory will search the skies
for the source of cosmic rays and could challenge Albert
Einstein's 1905 special theory of relativity which explains the
relationship between mass, energy and light, Nobel laureate Dr.
James Cronin told reporters.

``This is a very unusual and perfect scientific problem because
the source of these particles is a complete mystery,'' said
Cronin, a physics professor at the University of Chicago and
co-director of The Auger Project.

The Argentine government will put $15 million toward the
expected $50 million cost of building the observatory.

The array of telescopes, scattered across a 1,160 square mile
(3,000 square km) site high in the Andes 680 miles (1,100 km)
west of Buenos Aires, will be hooked up to a central computer
capable of measuring the intensity of cosmic rays.

The site was chosen for its vast swathe of empty land and
geographical isolation. Construction of its sister site in Utah
has yet to begin.

``It's best to think of this as a new astronomy where there are
sources in the universe which give not light but very high
energy particles,'' Cronin said.

Some scientists believe cosmic rays may be decayed leftovers
from massive particles created in the very early universe,
shortly after the Big Bang, said Leeds University physics
professor Alan Watson.

``It may be that these particles are created by the matter
surrounding black holes, or maybe there are particles in nature
we have not yet observed with accelerators,'' Watson said.

Argentina hopes that the project will pay economic dividends and
raise its status in the scientific community, said Alberto
Etchigoyen, coordinator of the Auger Project's Argentina
delegation.

The Argentine part of the observatory, named after a scientist
who discovered extensive atmospheric storms of cosmic rays in
1938, should be completed by 2004 but individual arrays should
begin operating within a year, Cronin said.

21:04 04-18-00

Copyright 2000 Reuters Limited.  All rights reserved.







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   Apr > Apr 19

                  Earth Lights/UFO Site - mysterylights.com

From: Sean Palmer <loop_line@yahoo.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 03:40:12 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 08:54:22 -0400
Subject: Earth Lights/UFO Site - mysterylights.com


Hello Everyone,

Just to let you know that my ever-expanding site has now aquired
a nice .com domain:

http://www.mysterylights.com/

Most of the stuff I know about earth lights is put up there,
however, there is some new info. that I can put up soon (I
hope).

I hope you all like the site. Any input, comments etc.
truly appreciated!


Sean B. Palmer








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   Apr > Apr 19

               French Defence Ministry Releases Radar UFO Info

From: Perry Petrakis - SOS OVNI <sosovni@pacwan.fr>
Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 14:46:57 +0200
Fwd Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 09:12:38 -0400
Subject: French Defence Ministry Releases Radar UFO Info


SOS OVNI Presse release

For Immediate Release

Exclusive

For the first time ever, a private French UFO research group
obtains a file on a military radar detection directly through
the French Ministry of Defence.

We are pleased to announce that the issue 43 of Phenomena, the
French newsstand journal dedicated to the scientific study of
unidentified aerial phenomena has been published. An issue which
features an investigation that will possibly cause a stir since
it reveals the dealings of UFO cases by the French military.

August 98: A civilian living near Metz sees a spherical object
which beams down a light as it flies over his head. The witness
files a testimonial report with the French Military Gendarmerie
Corps.

January 99: SOS OVNI asks the authorities for a copy of the
report. The witness tells private researchers that the police
showed him a file which seems to demonstrate that there was a
military radar detection of the object. SOS OVNI requests
confirmation from the Drachenbronn control center in the East of
France.

February 99: Drachenbronn denies in a written statement: "We
researched our archives to no avail".

July 99: Investigators from SOS OVNI recieve a copy of the
Gendarmerie report. The military radar detection is mentionned
in unquestionnable terms.

July 99: SOS OVNI writes back to Drachenbronn asking for an
explanation as to why they denied the sighting.

September 99: having never recieved any reply, investigators
file a procedure with the Commission d�Acces aux Documents
Administratifs, a French official body which gives an opinion of
whether the files may or may not be communicated under the
French Freedom of Information Act. The committee replies
favorably to the demand.

October 99: The complete file is forwarded to SOS OVNI directly
by the French Defence Ministry. Where one finds confirmation of
a radar detection: "We detected track ME 403 for three minutes,
with no information about height, of an object on which we have
no data" Radar Control Center in Drachenbronn. Where one also
discover that the French official investigative body SEPRA,
headed by Jean-Jacques Velasco, filed the case without any
research.

More information can be obtained about this issue of Phenomena
by contacting:

Perry Petrakis
Phone ++ (33) 442.12.30.59.
E-mail: sosovni@pacwan.fr

Or directly through our web site: http://www.sosovni.com








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   Apr > Apr 19

                    Re: UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 5, Number 16

From: John Hayes <webmaster@ufoinfo.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 21:07:01 +0100
Fwd Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 17:32:52 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 5, Number 16


      UFO ROUNDUP
Volume 5, Number 16
April 20, 2000
Editor: Joseph Trainor

<mailto:Masinaigan@aol.com>

http://ufoinfo.com/roundup/


UFO AND REPTOID SEEN
IN MISSOURI

      On Saturday, April 15, 2000, sometime between
1 and 2 a.m., Alan S. was asleep at his home in
Ballwin, Missouri (population 22,000).  All at once,
he "woke up and looked to my right.  It was standing
near my bed.  It disappeared after about two minutes."
      Alan reported, "It was a very strange creature.  It
was lime green, glowing, and it looked like it had a
light lime green aura around the body.  It had two
arms and two legs.  His eyes were bright glowing red.
His skin looked scaly, like a reptile.  It looked like it
was maybe four feet (1.3 meters) tall."
      Alan remained motionless in bed until the entity
vanished.  At first, he added, "I kept it to myself.  I
told my cousin but she laughed it off."
      Ballwin is on Missouri Highway 100 about
30 miles (48 kilometers) west of St. Louis.
      Alan's experience could be written off as a
"waking dream," except for the fact that there was
a UFO sighting elsewhere in Missouri that night.
UFO Roundup received the report from another
source not known to the Ballwin witness.
      At 9:06 p.m. on Friday, April 14, 2000, about
four hours before the Ballwin encounter, Jesse
Carlson was outdoors in Holden, Missouri, just east
of Independence, when he spotted an unusual light in
the sky.
      The UFO, Jesse reported, approached from the north
and was headed southwest.  He described it as "a bright
light in a square shape with real end curves.  It was sort of
white with yellow on the outside of it."  He added that it
moved in "a kind of falling" motion, adding, "I had no idea
of the height, but it was going along about twenty miles
per hour (32 kilometers per hour)."
      Holden (population 2,400) is located about 180 miles
(208 kilometers) west-northwest of Ballwin.  (Email Form
Reports)

HOVERING GRAY UFO SPOTTED
OVER TOLEDO, OHIO

      On Saturday, April 1, 2000, at 5:10 a.m., Rick Heacock
was driving on the Ohio Turnpike, also known as Interstate
Highway 80, just south of the city of Toledo (population
333,000).  As he approached Exit 5, at mile marker 71,
he spotted a strange object hovering motionless in
the sky.
      "I saw an oval-shaped object about 100 to 150 feet
(30 to 45 meters) off the ground," Rick reported.  "It was
standing still.  It was oval, had three headlights on the front
and three in the back.  A small green light under the
front lights, and I could see there were lights in the
center of it.  It looked about as big as a house."
      Rick further described the UFO as "round in front and
in back, and flat on both sides.  Black or dark gray in color."
      "I'm not sure if it was reported (in the media--J.T.),
but I know that there was a police officer who stood on the
side of the road and was looking at it," he added, "And there
were about 50 truck drivers at a truck stop in the area.
I heard them talking about it on the CB (Citizen's Band radio
channel--J.T.)."
      Toledo is in the northwest corner of Ohio approximately
119 miles (140 kilometers) west of Cleveland.  (Email
Form Report)

SMALL TRIANGULAR UFO SEEN
IN NORTHERN BORNEO

      On Tuesday, April 4, 2000, witnesses in a remote
rain forest area of northern Borneo spotted a small
triangular UFO flying north towards the Crocker
Mountains.
      The sighting took place on the island of Borneo,
about 200 kilometers (120 miles) south of Ranau,
East Malaysia, and just north of Malaysia's border
with Indonesia's West Kalamantan province.
      Witnesses described the object as "almost a
triangular-shaped disc," with curved corners, "with
lights shining red and green and smaller lights
circulating on the edge of the disc."
      "It stopped in the air for about 45 seconds
and then flew off to the west of the Crocker range.
The object was three times larger than a Mercedes
Benz 230" automobile and was "shiny, as if it were
silver in color.  Haven't seen anything go that fast since
an (A-300) Airbus taking off."
      Our Borneo correspondent reports that this rain
forest is "in a very remote area" beyond the range of
TV or radio reception.  "To be exact, no radio waves
can be received at this particular location."  (Many
thanks to "the Wild Man of Borneo, Sarawak's Number
One Party Animal" for this report.)

CASSINI CLEARS ASTEROID
BELT ON ITS WAY TO SATURN

      On Saturday, April 15, 2000, the robot spacecraft
Cassini successfully completed its four-month crossing
of the asteroid belt between Mars and Jupiter.
      Cassini is the seventh Earth spacecraft to cross
the asteroid belt since Pioneer 10 in the 1970s.
      Engineers at NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory
"did not make any adjustments to Cassini as it passed
through the region," with one exception.  "The spacecraft's
Cosmic Dust Analyzer (CDA) was re-oriented whenever
possible to better study the environment" within the
asteroid belt.
      The spacecraft was in no actual danger during its
traverse of the belt.  "Cassini's engines are covered by
a shield that protects them from any possible impact"
by small meteoroids.  "This cover has been in place
at all times since launch."
      "'I'm glad we passed through it, but it's pretty
routine.  There's a lot of material in the belt, but
there's also an awful lot of space out there,' said Cassini
Project manager Bob Mitchell of JPL."
      On its way through the asteroid belt, "Cassini's camera
also imaged the asteroid 2685 Mazursky.  Data gathered
presented scientists with the first size estimates of the
asteroid and preliminary evidence that it may have
different material properties than previously believed."
(Editor's Note:  Asteroid 2685 Mazursky is named for
the late and much-missed Dr. Harold Mazursky, the
father of Martian geology.  The numerical designation
2685 means that it is the 2,685th asteroid discovered
since scientists began charting them two centuries ago.)
      Cassini was launched on October 15, 1997.  The
spacecraft has already had its flybys of Venus and
Earth.  With the asteroid belt behind it, Cassini now has
a clear flight ahead to Jupiter, arriving on December 30,
2000.  The spacecraft will then use the gas giant's
gravity to bend its trajectory and pick up speed for
its trip to Saturn.  Cassini's estimated arrival date at
Saturn is July 1, 2004.  ((Many thanks to Mark A. LeCuyer
for the NASA news release.)

POLICE ARREST 1,300 AT
IMF PROTESTS

      The International Monetary Fund completed its
weekend conference in the USA's capital of
Washington, D.C., but not before police arrested
1,300 people protesting the Fund and the World
Trade Organization (WTO).
      First, "police seized materials that they said
could be used to make firebombs and closed the
training center for protestors Saturday," April 15, 2000,"
"But thousands of activists, bearing backpacks and
bravado, gathered in the rain and vowed not to be
deterred from shutting down the meetings of the
world trade organizations on Monday."
      "'If anything, they've made us more passionate,'
said Katie, a friendly Wittenberg University student
from Springfield, Ohio, who had a phone number
written prominently on her arm in indelible ink.
'It's for the legal team--in case I get thrown in
jail,' she explained, adding that she didn't want to
give her last name."
      "The great majority of protestors are united
in their accusations that international financiers
are destroying the environment through improper
development in Third World countries and imposing
monetary policies that hurt poor people."
      "Protestors scoffed at the notion that they were
making bombs.  What the police seized was paint
remover and other materials to make banners and
placards, said Patrick Reinsborough, a spokesman
for Mobilization for Global Justice, the umbrella
organization for scores of groups from labor
organizations to environmentalists."
     On Sunday, April 16, 2000, "despite human
blockades and demonstrations by as many as
10,000 people, protestors failed to stop the first
day of meetings of the International Monetary
Fund and the World Bank."
      "Using trash bins and mattresses, protestors
formed human chains early in the day to block
streets near the IMF.  By the time the meetings
began, only four finance ministers--from Brazil,
Portugal, France and Thailand--had failed to get
through."
      "Few riotous acts were reported.  About a
block from the World Bank, protestors smashed
windows and slashed two tires on a white Crown
Victoria that belonged to a local television station.
The vandals apparently mistook it for a police car.
They scrawled 'Pigs' on a tire and 'End fascism'
on one side."
      "Nearly 2,000 local and federal police, dressed
in $1 million of new riot gear, blocked off several
streets around the World Bank, IMF and the
White House."
      Clashes between police and protestors took place
at two locations.
      At the corner of 18th and I Street NW, "police
appeared to use tear gas in a skirmish with
protestors who were using bandanas as face masks."
      Washington D.C. police chief Charles Ramsey
reportedly "later told reporters that smoke grenades,
not tear gas, were used."
      At the corner of 15th and K Streets NW, "police
clubbed demonstrators with batons and squirted pepper
spray in their faces to keep the surging crowd back...
One of those struck was an Associated Press
photographer who was knocked unconscious."
      On Monday, April 17, 2000, "rain-soaked protestors
battled with police and lined up for mass arrests,
but they failed to halt the last day of meetings" of the
IMF and the World Bank.
      Although most protestors were peaceful on Monday,
"several clashes between police and protestors were
reported.  At one intersection, police fired tear gas and
pepper spray at demonstrators trying to overrun
barricades."
      "Some protestors said they had originally voted
to storm the barricades and break into the building
where world financial leaders were meeting, but then
they decided on peaceful arrests."
      "By early afternoon, a standoff between police and
protestors began to wind down, as soaked protestors
were arrested--peaceably, arm in arm, in small groups."
      Protestors were charged with crossing a police line
and unlawful assembly.
      "Several times protestors tried to knock down
metal barricades.  They threw broken bottles at
officers and used their own cans of pepper spray
on police."
      "Hundreds of other protestors, dressed in
ponchos and bandanas drenched in vinegar to
combat the effects of tear gas, sat along Pennsylvania
Avenue and chanted, 'This is what democracy looks
like.'"
      "Members of a group of nearly 100 self-proclaimed
anarchists spray-painted a Gap clothing store with
the word 'sweatshop'."
      "'We may not have stopped the delegates from
getting in, but we have alerted the world,' said Sarah
Moore, a 22-year-old protestor and Harvard University
student."
      "Even World Bank officials acknowledged that the
protests were meaningful."
      "'We were affected, and I personally was affected,
by the fact of these demonstrations,' World Bank
President James Wolfensohn (of Australia) said."
(See the Duluth, Minn. News-Tribune for April 16,
2000, "Police in nation's capital braced for protests
at finance meeting," page 4A; USA Today for April
17, 2000, "Protests fail to stop IMF meetings,"
page 3A; and USA Today for April 18, 2000, "IMF
protests fizzle in D.C. drizzle," page 3A.)

ROUNDUP CORRIGENDA:
      Here's an update from Yukon ufologist Martin
Jasek--"Some important points regarding the case
(in Pelly Crossing, Yukon, Canada) that are not
accurately depicted in your article." (See UFO Roundup
volume 5, number 15 for April 13, 2000)
      "1. The two witnesses didn't chase the saucer but
rather fled from it (continued to drive north--M.J.)"
      "2. The female witness was driving."
      "3. They were not a 'couple,' just friends."
      "The account I sent you didn't make this clear one
way or the other.  I will update the article to establish
this more accurately.  Other than that, a good account."

from the UFO Files...

1755: UNFORGETTABLE
            ANACHARSIST CLOOTZ

      Secretary-General.  Foreign Legion.  General
Assembly.  These are all familiar names today.  But
the man who coined these expressions is less
well-known.
      He could well be called "the grandfather of the
United Nations."  He was the first Illuminatus to
wield political power.  And what he did with it...
well, read for yourself.
      He was born on June 11, 1755 at Schloss
(Castle) Gnadenthal near Cleves in Prussia
(northern Germany, then an independent kingdom--
J.T.), "heir to a great fortune."  His baptismal name
was Jean-Baptiste du Val-du-Grace, Freiherr (Baron)
von Clootz, and "he belonged to a noble Prussian
family of Dutch origin."
      In 1766, at the age of eleven, Clootz was sent
to Paris to study under his uncle, the philosopher
Cornelius de Pauw.  He met Jean-Jacques Rousseau,
Denis Diderot and the other Encyclopedists and
discussed the bold new theories of the Enlightenment.
      His father enrolled him in the Prussian military
academy at Potsdam, but Clootz disliked the discipline
of military life.  He dropped out at age twenty and then
embarked on a strange odyssey that took him all over
Europe and the Middle East.
      According to his biographer Georges Avenel, Clootz
was in Serbia when he first heard of the Illuminati, and
he joined the lodge in Belgrade in 1778.  While visiting
Cracow, Poland, he befriended the Freys, a family of
Moravian Jews, and went from there to Salonika in Greece,
and then to Istanbul, Damascus and Jerusalem,  During
his travels, he became an authority on Islam.
      But Clootz detested all revealed religions.  When
a Frenchman named Bergier wrote a book entitled
Proofs of the Certainty of Christianity, Clootz responded
with a fiery book of his own, Proofs of the Certainty of
Muhammadanism (Islam--J.T.) under the pseudonym
"Ali Ger-Ber."
      Clootz was in Sicily in August 1789 when he first
heard of the fall of the Bastille.  He received orders from
Illuminati founder Adam Weishaupt to proceed to Lyons
in France to confer with Weishaupt's buddy, Jean-
Baptiste Willermoz.  Two of Willermoz's disciples,
Jeanne-Marie Phlipon de Roland and her elderly husband,
were already on their way to Paris.
      Arriving in Paris, Clootz and an idealistic young
revolutionary, Camille Desmoulins, founded the Cordeliers
Club, which eventually became the Jacobin party.  Here
he met other revolutionary leaders like Dr. Jean-Paul
Marat and Georges-Jacques Danton.  Here, too, Clootz
began to articulate his vision of "a universal family of
nations," i.e. the Illuminati's long-cherished goal of a
one-world government.
      "Clootz was calling himself 'Orator of the Human Race"
and parading ostentatiously around Paris in a scarlet
Phrygian cap of liberty and whipped up war fever among the
foreign exile communities by proclaiming that the liberation
of all Europe was at hand."
      Interestingly, Avenel gives Clootz's full self-designated
title as "Secretary-General and Orator of the Human Race."
      Well, a Secretary-General needs his General Assembly,
and on June 19, 1790, Clootz created one by holding a
big outdoor rally.that was not without its comical moments.
      First, a thunderstorm drenched the crowd.  "God is an
aristocrat," Clootz joked, "I knew it all along."
      Some of the sansculottes (street people--J.T.) recognized
the "foreign representatives" as actors from the theatre and
jeered and threw garbage at them.
      A murasid (Honored sheikh--J.T.) from Saudi Arabia
tried to give a speech in French, but his vocabulary wasn't
up to the job, so he switched to Arabic, Nobody could
understand what he was saying, but the crowd enjoyed his
enthusiastic presentation.
      After the rally, Clootz led 36 foreigner, "a delegation
of representatives from 'the oppressed nations of the
Universe,' led by the self-designated 'Orator of the Human
Race,' Anacharsis Clootz, appeared in appropriate national
costumes--German, Dutch, Swiss, even Indian, Turkish
and Persian (from Iran--J.T.)They congratulated the (French)
Assembly for having 'restored primitive equality among men'
and 'encouraged by the glorious example of the French, all the
peoples of the universe would soon break the yoke of the
tyrants who oppress them.'"
      Weishaupt and Willermoz had chosen their viceroy well.
Clootz proved to be a tireless organizer for one-world
government.  By November 1791, he was literally redrawing
the map of Europe.  He "proposed universal war and the
division of Europe into departments, beginning with Savoy,
Belgium, Holland (the Netherlands--J.T.) 'and so on, all the
way to the Arctic Ocean.'"
      At the newly-renamed Jacobin Club, Clootz shouted,
"I shall not rest until there is a republic on the moon!"
      To which Dr. Marat chuckled and shook his head.
"Clootz, tu es un fouture bete." (Translated, "Clootz, you
are a crazy beast.")
      Through his cat's paws, Brissot and Madame Roland,
Clootz agitated for an interventionist war.  Desmoulins was
against the war, and the two men ended their friendship.
French troops occupied Spain's Catalonia province and
Italy's Savoy province, igniting a series of wars that finally
ended at Waterloo in 1815.
      Appearing again at the Assembly, Clootz declared,
"Here is the crisis of the universe.  God entangled the
primitive chaos; the French will unravel the feudal chaos.
God is powerful.  We are powerful.  Free men are the gods
of the Earth.  They make war on us with serf soldiers and
with extorted money.  We make a holy war on them with
free soldiers and contributions voluntarily consented.  Our
victories will be our banquets.  Legislators, I place in the
sanctuary, in the presence of my supporters, in the
sanctuary of the constitutional god (Lucifer--J.T.), the sum
of twelve thousand livres (600 pounds sterling) to dress, equip,
arm and pay 40 to 50 fighters in the sacred war of men
against crowns.  I present to you at the same time my last
work whose very title makes the aristocrats tremble:
Tye Universal Republic."
(Editor's Comment: In making this speech, Clootz
inadvertently fulfilled a prophecy from the previous
century.  In 1644, the Virgin Mary appeared in a convent
in Quito, Ecuador.  This apparition, known as Nuestra
Senora de Buena Suerte (Our Lady of Good Fortune),
told the nuns, "At the end of the Eighteenth Century,
the worshippers of Lucifer will attempt to create the
Universal Republic.")
      Clootz went to work "equipping a Foreign Legion.
Within a week, a regiment had been formed by the men
of Liege, who had been waiting four months for the
opportunity.  A Belgian corps fought under Luckner and
Courtrai...Clootz himself and Saffert, a Saxon doctor...
organized a German regiment."
      By the following summer, the "Secretary-General"
began to show his true colors.  On August 10, 1792,
he declared, "I am the personal enemy of Jesus Christ."
      Not content with mere rhetoric, Clootz decided to go
out and prove it.  With France now losing the war, the
revolutionary government instituted all kinds of draconian
decrees, including the mass roundup of "suspects."
      On Sunday, September 2, 1792, a sansculotte mob
led by Clootz attacked Roman Catholic priests being
transported to the jail at the Abbaye de St. Germain des
Pres.  After killing them, the mob moved on to Les Carmes,
the Carmeltie convent nearby, "where it was known some
150 priests had been incarcerated.  Certain priests confined
at Les Carmes, the Archbishop of Arles among them, had
sought refuge in the oratory in the garden..."
      Archbishop Dulau of Arles, age 79, approached Clootz
and said, "Take my life if you must.  But spare these worthy
priests so that they may pray for you here on Earth and me
in heaven."
      Drawing his sabre, Clootz shook his head.  "No."
      "We have done you no harm," the archbishop said.
      "Fine!  Then I'll do some to you."  Lifting his blade,
Clootz muttered, "Lucifer, accept this soul!"
      Archbishop Dulau went down instantly, his throat
cut.  Raising his sword again, Clootz turned to Bishop
de la Rochefoucauld of Beauvais.  "Lucifer, accept this
soul!"
      And "the September Massacres began in earnest."
The hapless priests "were dispatched with pike thrusts,
sabre cuts and blows from such implements as axes
and shovels."  The sansculottes engaged in an orgy
of slaughter, hacking, slashing and shooting, all the
while singing their favorite song, Dansez la Carmagnole.
      The following evening, Madame Roland "gave a dinner
and allowed" Clootz "who came, uninvited, to make a
defense of the horrible murders."
      In her Memoirs, Madame Roland wrote, "The events of
the day formed the subject of conversation.  Clootz pretended
to prove that it was an indispensable and salutary measure;
he uttered a good many commonplaces about the people's
rights, the justice of their vengeance, and of its utility to the
welfare of the (human) species; he talked a long while and
very loudly, ate still more, and fatigued more than one
listener."
      Unfzaed by criticism from his colleagues, particularly
Brissot, whose approval rating was sinking faster than the
Titanic, Clootz continued his war against religion.  In
November 1792, Clootz and Leonard Bourdon called on
Jean-Baptiste Gobel, the Archbishop of Paris, and
ordered him to publicly abjure his faith.  They sent the
same ultimatum to to Dr. Jean Julien, the leader of
France's Protestants.
      There was no room for Jesus Christ in Clootz's
New World Order.
      Growing more and more radical, the French
government abolished royalty and then put King
Louis XVI, renamed "Citizen Capet," on trial.  He
was found guilty and condemned on January 16,
1793.  "I vote for death!" cried Clootz, "And I also
condemn to death the infamous (King) Frederick
William of Prussia!"
      By now, the French Revolution had degenerated
into a vicious four-way power struggle between Clootz,
aided by his creature Brissot, Dr. Marat, the disgraced
former prime minister Danton and an up-and-comer
named Maximilien Robespierre.
      In retrospect, it's clear that Robespierre, nicknamed
"The Incorruptible," was a bigger threat to Illuminati
plans than the hot-tempered Dr. Marat.  So it's not
understood just why Weishaupt selected Marat for
assassination.  My guess is, Marat, who took an
infantile pleasure in heaping invective on his enemies,
probably penned an insulting letter to the Illuminatus
Rex, and Weishaupt blew up when he read it.
      On July 13, 1793, Marat was stabbed to death in
his bathtub by Charlotte Corday d'Aumont.  The murder
may have temporarily halted Clootz's political decline,
but it put Robespierre on his guard.  He  told his
brother, "The honots of the dagger have been reserved
for me, as well."
      The Incorruptible decided to strike first.  In this he
was aided by two Illuminati defectors--the sorceress
Fatherine Theot and her partner, Christophe "Dom" Gerle.
The pair told Robespierre all about Clootz's inside
dealings with the bankers Daniel and Jacob Frey and
the Illuminati funding coming from Amsterdam.
      On March 8, 1794, Clootz was arrested along with
everyone in his inner circle--the Frey brothers, Robert
de Chabot, who was married to Leopoldine Frey, the
Dutch banker de Kock, the profiteer D'Espenac, the
Spanish adventurer Guzman, and three officials of the
French Foreign Office--Desfieux, Dubuisson and
Pereira."
      Clootz appealed in writing to the people of Paris--
"If I have sinned, it is by too much candor.  Marat
always said I was a crazy beat."
(Editor's Comment: Marat sure got that one right!)
      Clootz was probably innocent of the financial
corruption charges levelled against him.  But he
couldn't dispute public prosecutor Antoine Fouquier-
Tinville when he charged Clootz with being "an enemy
of sovereignty."
      The verdict was a foregone conclusion.  On
March 24, 1794, Clootz was loaded aboard the tumbril
with the other 18 defendants.  He sat calmly during
most of the ride, but his cool began to desert him as
they approached the guillotine.
      In contrast to Guzman's jaunty farewell--"See you
in hell, Clootz!"--the Illuminatus dug in his heels on the
scaffold.  "I am the Orator of the Human Race," he told
the executioner Sansom, "I must go last in order to
establish certain principles."
      Clootz "bade farewell to his beloved human race in
front of the biggest crowd ever to surround the guillotine."
As his head poked through "the little window," he
murmured, "Lucifer, accept this soul!"  And the blade
fell.
      Clootz had offered one last sacrifice to his dark
deity--himself.
      By Killing Clootz and uprooting the money
pipeline from Amsterdam, Robespierre thought he had
beaten the Illuminati.  He was wrong.  And on July 28,
1794, he became dead wrong.  (See the following
books for more: Anacharsis Clootz--L'Orateur du Gens
Humain by Georges Avenel, Paris, 1865; The French
Revolution 1788-1792 by Gaetano Salvemini, W.W.
Norton & Co., 1962, page 251; The French Revolution
by Jim Thompson, Oxford University Press, New York,
N.Y. 1945, pages 131, 272, 279, 499, and 506;
Citizens-A Chronicle of the French Revolution by
Simon Schama, Randon House, Inc., New York, N.Y.,
1989, pages 474, 592, 597, 753, 778, 808, 809
and 816; The Oxford History of the French Revolution,
Clarendon Press, 1989, page 270; The Life and Death of
Louis XVI by Saul K. Padover, D. Appleston-Century,
New York, N.Y., 1939, pages 255 and 323; Marie
Antoinette and the Downfall of Royalty by Imbert de
Saint-Armand, Charles Scribner's Sons, New York,
N.Y. 1891, page 375; Robespierre--The Force of
Circumstance by John Laurence Carr, St. Martin's
Press, New York, N.Y., 1972, pages 79 to 82; and
Paris in the Terror by Stanley Loomis, J.B. Lippincott
and Co., Philadelphia, Pa. 1964, page 79.)

      We'll be back in seven days with more UFO and
paranormal news from around the planet Earth, brought
to you by "the paper that goes home--UFO Roundup.
See you then.

UFO ROUNDUP: Copyright 2000 by Masinaigan
Productions, all rights reserved.  Readers may post
news items from UFO Roundup on their websites or
in newsgroups provided that they credit the newsletter
and its editor by name and list the date of issue in
which the item first appeared.


*********************************************************
IMPORTANT Please Read:
======================

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---------------
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deaths are children under 5. By visiting the Hunger Site
and clicking on a button you can donate free food.

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the food is paid for by sponsors.

Do this once a day (no more) and help make a difference!
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Website comments: John Hayes <webmaster@ufoinfo.com>

UFOINFO: http://ufoinfo.com

Official Archives of the UK UFO Network Bulletin,
AUFORN Australian UFO Reports and Experiences,
UFO + PSI Magazine also available, plus archives of
Filer's Files.








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 >
   Apr > Apr 19

               Re: CBS News: Why Is A Light Pulsing In Space?

From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 13:43:28 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 17:36:50 -0400
Subject: Re: CBS News: Why Is A Light Pulsing In Space?


UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>wrote:

Source: CBS News

http://cbsnews.cbs.com/now/story/0%2C1597%2C182284-412%2C00.shtml

 >It flashes like a slowly rotating searchlight,
 >scientists say.

 >"It's a mystery," said Los Alamos researcher Jim
 >Wren. "It's
 >definitely a strange object."

This is probably going to turn out to be a natural phenomenon,
but you can't help but wonder if we're looking at some sort of
functioning megascale artifact.  I think optical SETI--looking
for strange objects in deep space--is certainly warranted by the
theories of Freeman Dyson and others.  I think "SETI," as a
holistic endeavor to seek out alien life, should consist of
three independent projects:

1. The search for ET radio signals, which we're doing now

2. Planetary SETI, the search for artifacts on planetary
surfaces (which we're doing now to a very limited degree--and
those that do are laughed at)

3. Optical SETI, which has been attempted a few times in the
past but without the rigor it probably deserves.  Gregory
Benford advocates a thorough examination of the asteroid belt to
see if aliens are there using raw materials.  The idea is quite
practical and certainly not all that expensive.




=====
Mac Tonnies
239 E. Sea
Independence, MO 65050
816-833-5910
macbot@yahoo.com
http://www.geocities.com/macbot/mtvi.html







   UFO UpDates
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   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 >
   Apr > Apr 19

             Friedman On Siegel Show Late Sunday Night, April 23

From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 17:02:48 -0300
Fwd Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 17:44:50 -0400
Subject: Friedman On Siegel Show Late Sunday Night, April 23


Stanton Friedman wrote:

I have just agreed to appear on the Mike Siegel (Art Bell's
replacement) show on late Sunday night. I have never, to the
best of my knowledge, done a show with him. He apparently has
been a radio talk show guy for many many years. Could be
interesting with the fuss about Area 51 and who knows what else.

Tune in, call in,

Stan Friedman







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   Apr > Apr 19

                      UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 5, Number 16

From: John Hayes <webmaster@ufoinfo.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 21:07:01 +0100
Fwd Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 18:19:17 -0400
Subject: UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 5, Number 16


      UFO ROUNDUP
Volume 5, Number 16
April 20, 2000
Editor: Joseph Trainor

<mailto:Masinaigan@aol.com>

http://ufoinfo.com/roundup/


UFO AND REPTOID SEEN
IN MISSOURI

      On Saturday, April 15, 2000, sometime between
1 and 2 a.m., Alan S. was asleep at his home in
Ballwin, Missouri (population 22,000).  All at once,
he "woke up and looked to my right.  It was standing
near my bed.  It disappeared after about two minutes."
      Alan reported, "It was a very strange creature.  It
was lime green, glowing, and it looked like it had a
light lime green aura around the body.  It had two
arms and two legs.  His eyes were bright glowing red.
His skin looked scaly, like a reptile.  It looked like it
was maybe four feet (1.3 meters) tall."
      Alan remained motionless in bed until the entity
vanished.  At first, he added, "I kept it to myself.  I
told my cousin but she laughed it off."
      Ballwin is on Missouri Highway 100 about
30 miles (48 kilometers) west of St. Louis.
      Alan's experience could be written off as a
"waking dream," except for the fact that there was
a UFO sighting elsewhere in Missouri that night.
UFO Roundup received the report from another
source not known to the Ballwin witness.
      At 9:06 p.m. on Friday, April 14, 2000, about
four hours before the Ballwin encounter, Jesse
Carlson was outdoors in Holden, Missouri, just east
of Independence, when he spotted an unusual light in
the sky.
      The UFO, Jesse reported, approached from the north
and was headed southwest.  He described it as "a bright
light in a square shape with real end curves.  It was sort of
white with yellow on the outside of it."  He added that it
moved in "a kind of falling" motion, adding, "I had no idea
of the height, but it was going along about twenty miles
per hour (32 kilometers per hour)."
      Holden (population 2,400) is located about 180 miles
(208 kilometers) west-northwest of Ballwin.  (Email Form
Reports)

HOVERING GRAY UFO SPOTTED
OVER TOLEDO, OHIO

      On Saturday, April 1, 2000, at 5:10 a.m., Rick Heacock
was driving on the Ohio Turnpike, also known as Interstate
Highway 80, just south of the city of Toledo (population
333,000).  As he approached Exit 5, at mile marker 71,
he spotted a strange object hovering motionless in
the sky.
      "I saw an oval-shaped object about 100 to 150 feet
(30 to 45 meters) off the ground," Rick reported.  "It was
standing still.  It was oval, had three headlights on the front
and three in the back.  A small green light under the
front lights, and I could see there were lights in the
center of it.  It looked about as big as a house."
      Rick further described the UFO as "round in front and
in back, and flat on both sides.  Black or dark gray in color."
      "I'm not sure if it was reported (in the media--J.T.),
but I know that there was a police officer who stood on the
side of the road and was looking at it," he added, "And there
were about 50 truck drivers at a truck stop in the area.
I heard them talking about it on the CB (Citizen's Band radio
channel--J.T.)."
      Toledo is in the northwest corner of Ohio approximately
119 miles (140 kilometers) west of Cleveland.  (Email
Form Report)

SMALL TRIANGULAR UFO SEEN
IN NORTHERN BORNEO

      On Tuesday, April 4, 2000, witnesses in a remote
rain forest area of northern Borneo spotted a small
triangular UFO flying north towards the Crocker
Mountains.
      The sighting took place on the island of Borneo,
about 200 kilometers (120 miles) south of Ranau,
East Malaysia, and just north of Malaysia's border
with Indonesia's West Kalamantan province.
      Witnesses described the object as "almost a
triangular-shaped disc," with curved corners, "with
lights shining red and green and smaller lights
circulating on the edge of the disc."
      "It stopped in the air for about 45 seconds
and then flew off to the west of the Crocker range.
The object was three times larger than a Mercedes
Benz 230" automobile and was "shiny, as if it were
silver in color.  Haven't seen anything go that fast since
an (A-300) Airbus taking off."
      Our Borneo correspondent reports that this rain
forest is "in a very remote area" beyond the range of
TV or radio reception.  "To be exact, no radio waves
can be received at this particular location."  (Many
thanks to "the Wild Man of Borneo, Sarawak's Number
One Party Animal" for this report.)

CASSINI CLEARS ASTEROID
BELT ON ITS WAY TO SATURN

      On Saturday, April 15, 2000, the robot spacecraft
Cassini successfully completed its four-month crossing
of the asteroid belt between Mars and Jupiter.
      Cassini is the seventh Earth spacecraft to cross
the asteroid belt since Pioneer 10 in the 1970s.
      Engineers at NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory
"did not make any adjustments to Cassini as it passed
through the region," with one exception.  "The spacecraft's
Cosmic Dust Analyzer (CDA) was re-oriented whenever
possible to better study the environment" within the
asteroid belt.
      The spacecraft was in no actual danger during its
traverse of the belt.  "Cassini's engines are covered by
a shield that protects them from any possible impact"
by small meteoroids.  "This cover has been in place
at all times since launch."
      "'I'm glad we passed through it, but it's pretty
routine.  There's a lot of material in the belt, but
there's also an awful lot of space out there,' said Cassini
Project manager Bob Mitchell of JPL."
      On its way through the asteroid belt, "Cassini's camera
also imaged the asteroid 2685 Mazursky.  Data gathered
presented scientists with the first size estimates of the
asteroid and preliminary evidence that it may have
different material properties than previously believed."
(Editor's Note:  Asteroid 2685 Mazursky is named for
the late and much-missed Dr. Harold Mazursky, the
father of Martian geology.  The numerical designation
2685 means that it is the 2,685th asteroid discovered
since scientists began charting them two centuries ago.)
      Cassini was launched on October 15, 1997.  The
spacecraft has already had its flybys of Venus and
Earth.  With the asteroid belt behind it, Cassini now has
a clear flight ahead to Jupiter, arriving on December 30,
2000.  The spacecraft will then use the gas giant's
gravity to bend its trajectory and pick up speed for
its trip to Saturn.  Cassini's estimated arrival date at
Saturn is July 1, 2004.  ((Many thanks to Mark A. LeCuyer
for the NASA news release.)

POLICE ARREST 1,300 AT
IMF PROTESTS

      The International Monetary Fund completed its
weekend conference in the USA's capital of
Washington, D.C., but not before police arrested
1,300 people protesting the Fund and the World
Trade Organization (WTO).
      First, "police seized materials that they said
could be used to make firebombs and closed the
training center for protestors Saturday," April 15, 2000,"
"But thousands of activists, bearing backpacks and
bravado, gathered in the rain and vowed not to be
deterred from shutting down the meetings of the
world trade organizations on Monday."
      "'If anything, they've made us more passionate,'
said Katie, a friendly Wittenberg University student
from Springfield, Ohio, who had a phone number
written prominently on her arm in indelible ink.
'It's for the legal team--in case I get thrown in
jail,' she explained, adding that she didn't want to
give her last name."
      "The great majority of protestors are united
in their accusations that international financiers
are destroying the environment through improper
development in Third World countries and imposing
monetary policies that hurt poor people."
      "Protestors scoffed at the notion that they were
making bombs.  What the police seized was paint
remover and other materials to make banners and
placards, said Patrick Reinsborough, a spokesman
for Mobilization for Global Justice, the umbrella
organization for scores of groups from labor
organizations to environmentalists."
     On Sunday, April 16, 2000, "despite human
blockades and demonstrations by as many as
10,000 people, protestors failed to stop the first
day of meetings of the International Monetary
Fund and the World Bank."
      "Using trash bins and mattresses, protestors
formed human chains early in the day to block
streets near the IMF.  By the time the meetings
began, only four finance ministers--from Brazil,
Portugal, France and Thailand--had failed to get
through."
      "Few riotous acts were reported.  About a
block from the World Bank, protestors smashed
windows and slashed two tires on a white Crown
Victoria that belonged to a local television station.
The vandals apparently mistook it for a police car.
They scrawled 'Pigs' on a tire and 'End fascism'
on one side."
      "Nearly 2,000 local and federal police, dressed
in $1 million of new riot gear, blocked off several
streets around the World Bank, IMF and the
White House."
      Clashes between police and protestors took place
at two locations.
      At the corner of 18th and I Street NW, "police
appeared to use tear gas in a skirmish with
protestors who were using bandanas as face masks."
      Washington D.C. police chief Charles Ramsey
reportedly "later told reporters that smoke grenades,
not tear gas, were used."
      At the corner of 15th and K Streets NW, "police
clubbed demonstrators with batons and squirted pepper
spray in their faces to keep the surging crowd back...
One of those struck was an Associated Press
photographer who was knocked unconscious."
      On Monday, April 17, 2000, "rain-soaked protestors
battled with police and lined up for mass arrests,
but they failed to halt the last day of meetings" of the
IMF and the World Bank.
      Although most protestors were peaceful on Monday,
"several clashes between police and protestors were
reported.  At one intersection, police fired tear gas and
pepper spray at demonstrators trying to overrun
barricades."
      "Some protestors said they had originally voted
to storm the barricades and break into the building
where world financial leaders were meeting, but then
they decided on peaceful arrests."
      "By early afternoon, a standoff between police and
protestors began to wind down, as soaked protestors
were arrested--peaceably, arm in arm, in small groups."
      Protestors were charged with crossing a police line
and unlawful assembly.
      "Several times protestors tried to knock down
metal barricades.  They threw broken bottles at
officers and used their own cans of pepper spray
on police."
      "Hundreds of other protestors, dressed in
ponchos and bandanas drenched in vinegar to
combat the effects of tear gas, sat along Pennsylvania
Avenue and chanted, 'This is what democracy looks
like.'"
      "Members of a group of nearly 100 self-proclaimed
anarchists spray-painted a Gap clothing store with
the word 'sweatshop'."
      "'We may not have stopped the delegates from
getting in, but we have alerted the world,' said Sarah
Moore, a 22-year-old protestor and Harvard University
student."
      "Even World Bank officials acknowledged that the
protests were meaningful."
      "'We were affected, and I personally was affected,
by the fact of these demonstrations,' World Bank
President James Wolfensohn (of Australia) said."
(See the Duluth, Minn. News-Tribune for April 16,
2000, "Police in nation's capital braced for protests
at finance meeting," page 4A; USA Today for April
17, 2000, "Protests fail to stop IMF meetings,"
page 3A; and USA Today for April 18, 2000, "IMF
protests fizzle in D.C. drizzle," page 3A.)

ROUNDUP CORRIGENDA:
      Here's an update from Yukon ufologist Martin
Jasek--"Some important points regarding the case
(in Pelly Crossing, Yukon, Canada) that are not
accurately depicted in your article." (See UFO Roundup
volume 5, number 15 for April 13, 2000)
      "1. The two witnesses didn't chase the saucer but
rather fled from it (continued to drive north--M.J.)"
      "2. The female witness was driving."
      "3. They were not a 'couple,' just friends."
      "The account I sent you didn't make this clear one
way or the other.  I will update the article to establish
this more accurately.  Other than that, a good account."

from the UFO Files...

1755: UNFORGETTABLE
            ANACHARSIST CLOOTZ

      Secretary-General.  Foreign Legion.  General
Assembly.  These are all familiar names today.  But
the man who coined these expressions is less
well-known.
      He could well be called "the grandfather of the
United Nations."  He was the first Illuminatus to
wield political power.  And what he did with it...
well, read for yourself.
      He was born on June 11, 1755 at Schloss
(Castle) Gnadenthal near Cleves in Prussia
(northern Germany, then an independent kingdom--
J.T.), "heir to a great fortune."  His baptismal name
was Jean-Baptiste du Val-du-Grace, Freiherr (Baron)
von Clootz, and "he belonged to a noble Prussian
family of Dutch origin."
      In 1766, at the age of eleven, Clootz was sent
to Paris to study under his uncle, the philosopher
Cornelius de Pauw.  He met Jean-Jacques Rousseau,
Denis Diderot and the other Encyclopedists and
discussed the bold new theories of the Enlightenment.
      His father enrolled him in the Prussian military
academy at Potsdam, but Clootz disliked the discipline
of military life.  He dropped out at age twenty and then
embarked on a strange odyssey that took him all over
Europe and the Middle East.
      According to his biographer Georges Avenel, Clootz
was in Serbia when he first heard of the Illuminati, and
he joined the lodge in Belgrade in 1778.  While visiting
Cracow, Poland, he befriended the Freys, a family of
Moravian Jews, and went from there to Salonika in Greece,
and then to Istanbul, Damascus and Jerusalem,  During
his travels, he became an authority on Islam.
      But Clootz detested all revealed religions.  When
a Frenchman named Bergier wrote a book entitled
Proofs of the Certainty of Christianity, Clootz responded
with a fiery book of his own, Proofs of the Certainty of
Muhammadanism (Islam--J.T.) under the pseudonym
"Ali Ger-Ber."
      Clootz was in Sicily in August 1789 when he first
heard of the fall of the Bastille.  He received orders from
Illuminati founder Adam Weishaupt to proceed to Lyons
in France to confer with Weishaupt's buddy, Jean-
Baptiste Willermoz.  Two of Willermoz's disciples,
Jeanne-Marie Phlipon de Roland and her elderly husband,
were already on their way to Paris.
      Arriving in Paris, Clootz and an idealistic young
revolutionary, Camille Desmoulins, founded the Cordeliers
Club, which eventually became the Jacobin party.  Here
he met other revolutionary leaders like Dr. Jean-Paul
Marat and Georges-Jacques Danton.  Here, too, Clootz
began to articulate his vision of "a universal family of
nations," i.e. the Illuminati's long-cherished goal of a
one-world government.
      "Clootz was calling himself 'Orator of the Human Race"
and parading ostentatiously around Paris in a scarlet
Phrygian cap of liberty and whipped up war fever among the
foreign exile communities by proclaiming that the liberation
of all Europe was at hand."
      Interestingly, Avenel gives Clootz's full self-designated
title as "Secretary-General and Orator of the Human Race."
      Well, a Secretary-General needs his General Assembly,
and on June 19, 1790, Clootz created one by holding a
big outdoor rally.that was not without its comical moments.
      First, a thunderstorm drenched the crowd.  "God is an
aristocrat," Clootz joked, "I knew it all along."
      Some of the sansculottes (street people--J.T.) recognized
the "foreign representatives" as actors from the theatre and
jeered and threw garbage at them.
      A murasid (Honored sheikh--J.T.) from Saudi Arabia
tried to give a speech in French, but his vocabulary wasn't
up to the job, so he switched to Arabic, Nobody could
understand what he was saying, but the crowd enjoyed his
enthusiastic presentation.
      After the rally, Clootz led 36 foreigner, "a delegation
of representatives from 'the oppressed nations of the
Universe,' led by the self-designated 'Orator of the Human
Race,' Anacharsis Clootz, appeared in appropriate national
costumes--German, Dutch, Swiss, even Indian, Turkish
and Persian (from Iran--J.T.)They congratulated the (French)
Assembly for having 'restored primitive equality among men'
and 'encouraged by the glorious example of the French, all the
peoples of the universe would soon break the yoke of the
tyrants who oppress them.'"
      Weishaupt and Willermoz had chosen their viceroy well.
Clootz proved to be a tireless organizer for one-world
government.  By November 1791, he was literally redrawing
the map of Europe.  He "proposed universal war and the
division of Europe into departments, beginning with Savoy,
Belgium, Holland (the Netherlands--J.T.) 'and so on, all the
way to the Arctic Ocean.'"
      At the newly-renamed Jacobin Club, Clootz shouted,
"I shall not rest until there is a republic on the moon!"
      To which Dr. Marat chuckled and shook his head.
"Clootz, tu es un fouture bete." (Translated, "Clootz, you
are a crazy beast.")
      Through his cat's paws, Brissot and Madame Roland,
Clootz agitated for an interventionist war.  Desmoulins was
against the war, and the two men ended their friendship.
French troops occupied Spain's Catalonia province and
Italy's Savoy province, igniting a series of wars that finally
ended at Waterloo in 1815.
      Appearing again at the Assembly, Clootz declared,
"Here is the crisis of the universe.  God entangled the
primitive chaos; the French will unravel the feudal chaos.
God is powerful.  We are powerful.  Free men are the gods
of the Earth.  They make war on us with serf soldiers and
with extorted money.  We make a holy war on them with
free soldiers and contributions voluntarily consented.  Our
victories will be our banquets.  Legislators, I place in the
sanctuary, in the presence of my supporters, in the
sanctuary of the constitutional god (Lucifer--J.T.), the sum
of twelve thousand livres (600 pounds sterling) to dress, equip,
arm and pay 40 to 50 fighters in the sacred war of men
against crowns.  I present to you at the same time my last
work whose very title makes the aristocrats tremble:
Tye Universal Republic."
(Editor's Comment: In making this speech, Clootz
inadvertently fulfilled a prophecy from the previous
century.  In 1644, the Virgin Mary appeared in a convent
in Quito, Ecuador.  This apparition, known as Nuestra
Senora de Buena Suerte (Our Lady of Good Fortune),
told the nuns, "At the end of the Eighteenth Century,
the worshippers of Lucifer will attempt to create the
Universal Republic.")
      Clootz went to work "equipping a Foreign Legion.
Within a week, a regiment had been formed by the men
of Liege, who had been waiting four months for the
opportunity.  A Belgian corps fought under Luckner and
Courtrai...Clootz himself and Saffert, a Saxon doctor...
organized a German regiment."
      By the following summer, the "Secretary-General"
began to show his true colors.  On August 10, 1792,
he declared, "I am the personal enemy of Jesus Christ."
      Not content with mere rhetoric, Clootz decided to go
out and prove it.  With France now losing the war, the
revolutionary government instituted all kinds of draconian
decrees, including the mass roundup of "suspects."
      On Sunday, September 2, 1792, a sansculotte mob
led by Clootz attacked Roman Catholic priests being
transported to the jail at the Abbaye de St. Germain des
Pres.  After killing them, the mob moved on to Les Carmes,
the Carmeltie convent nearby, "where it was known some
150 priests had been incarcerated.  Certain priests confined
at Les Carmes, the Archbishop of Arles among them, had
sought refuge in the oratory in the garden..."
      Archbishop Dulau of Arles, age 79, approached Clootz
and said, "Take my life if you must.  But spare these worthy
priests so that they may pray for you here on Earth and me
in heaven."
      Drawing his sabre, Clootz shook his head.  "No."
      "We have done you no harm," the archbishop said.
      "Fine!  Then I'll do some to you."  Lifting his blade,
Clootz muttered, "Lucifer, accept this soul!"
      Archbishop Dulau went down instantly, his throat
cut.  Raising his sword again, Clootz turned to Bishop
de la Rochefoucauld of Beauvais.  "Lucifer, accept this
soul!"
      And "the September Massacres began in earnest."
The hapless priests "were dispatched with pike thrusts,
sabre cuts and blows from such implements as axes
and shovels."  The sansculottes engaged in an orgy
of slaughter, hacking, slashing and shooting, all the
while singing their favorite song, Dansez la Carmagnole.
      The following evening, Madame Roland "gave a dinner
and allowed" Clootz "who came, uninvited, to make a
defense of the horrible murders."
      In her Memoirs, Madame Roland wrote, "The events of
the day formed the subject of conversation.  Clootz pretended
to prove that it was an indispensable and salutary measure;
he uttered a good many commonplaces about the people's
rights, the justice of their vengeance, and of its utility to the
welfare of the (human) species; he talked a long while and
very loudly, ate still more, and fatigued more than one
listener."
      Unfzaed by criticism from his colleagues, particularly
Brissot, whose approval rating was sinking faster than the
Titanic, Clootz continued his war against religion.  In
November 1792, Clootz and Leonard Bourdon called on
Jean-Baptiste Gobel, the Archbishop of Paris, and
ordered him to publicly abjure his faith.  They sent the
same ultimatum to to Dr. Jean Julien, the leader of
France's Protestants.
      There was no room for Jesus Christ in Clootz's
New World Order.
      Growing more and more radical, the French
government abolished royalty and then put King
Louis XVI, renamed "Citizen Capet," on trial.  He
was found guilty and condemned on January 16,
1793.  "I vote for death!" cried Clootz, "And I also
condemn to death the infamous (King) Frederick
William of Prussia!"
      By now, the French Revolution had degenerated
into a vicious four-way power struggle between Clootz,
aided by his creature Brissot, Dr. Marat, the disgraced
former prime minister Danton and an up-and-comer
named Maximilien Robespierre.
      In retrospect, it's clear that Robespierre, nicknamed
"The Incorruptible," was a bigger threat to Illuminati
plans than the hot-tempered Dr. Marat.  So it's not
understood just why Weishaupt selected Marat for
assassination.  My guess is, Marat, who took an
infantile pleasure in heaping invective on his enemies,
probably penned an insulting letter to the Illuminatus
Rex, and Weishaupt blew up when he read it.
      On July 13, 1793, Marat was stabbed to death in
his bathtub by Charlotte Corday d'Aumont.  The murder
may have temporarily halted Clootz's political decline,
but it put Robespierre on his guard.  He  told his
brother, "The honots of the dagger have been reserved
for me, as well."
      The Incorruptible decided to strike first.  In this he
was aided by two Illuminati defectors--the sorceress
Fatherine Theot and her partner, Christophe "Dom" Gerle.
The pair told Robespierre all about Clootz's inside
dealings with the bankers Daniel and Jacob Frey and
the Illuminati funding coming from Amsterdam.
      On March 8, 1794, Clootz was arrested along with
everyone in his inner circle--the Frey brothers, Robert
de Chabot, who was married to Leopoldine Frey, the
Dutch banker de Kock, the profiteer D'Espenac, the
Spanish adventurer Guzman, and three officials of the
French Foreign Office--Desfieux, Dubuisson and
Pereira."
      Clootz appealed in writing to the people of Paris--
"If I have sinned, it is by too much candor.  Marat
always said I was a crazy beat."
(Editor's Comment: Marat sure got that one right!)
      Clootz was probably innocent of the financial
corruption charges levelled against him.  But he
couldn't dispute public prosecutor Antoine Fouquier-
Tinville when he charged Clootz with being "an enemy
of sovereignty."
      The verdict was a foregone conclusion.  On
March 24, 1794, Clootz was loaded aboard the tumbril
with the other 18 defendants.  He sat calmly during
most of the ride, but his cool began to desert him as
they approached the guillotine.
      In contrast to Guzman's jaunty farewell--"See you
in hell, Clootz!"--the Illuminatus dug in his heels on the
scaffold.  "I am the Orator of the Human Race," he told
the executioner Sansom, "I must go last in order to
establish certain principles."
      Clootz "bade farewell to his beloved human race in
front of the biggest crowd ever to surround the guillotine."
As his head poked through "the little window," he
murmured, "Lucifer, accept this soul!"  And the blade
fell.
      Clootz had offered one last sacrifice to his dark
deity--himself.
      By Killing Clootz and uprooting the money
pipeline from Amsterdam, Robespierre thought he had
beaten the Illuminati.  He was wrong.  And on July 28,
1794, he became dead wrong.  (See the following
books for more: Anacharsis Clootz--L'Orateur du Gens
Humain by Georges Avenel, Paris, 1865; The French
Revolution 1788-1792 by Gaetano Salvemini, W.W.
Norton & Co., 1962, page 251; The French Revolution
by Jim Thompson, Oxford University Press, New York,
N.Y. 1945, pages 131, 272, 279, 499, and 506;
Citizens-A Chronicle of the French Revolution by
Simon Schama, Randon House, Inc., New York, N.Y.,
1989, pages 474, 592, 597, 753, 778, 808, 809
and 816; The Oxford History of the French Revolution,
Clarendon Press, 1989, page 270; The Life and Death of
Louis XVI by Saul K. Padover, D. Appleston-Century,
New York, N.Y., 1939, pages 255 and 323; Marie
Antoinette and the Downfall of Royalty by Imbert de
Saint-Armand, Charles Scribner's Sons, New York,
N.Y. 1891, page 375; Robespierre--The Force of
Circumstance by John Laurence Carr, St. Martin's
Press, New York, N.Y., 1972, pages 79 to 82; and
Paris in the Terror by Stanley Loomis, J.B. Lippincott
and Co., Philadelphia, Pa. 1964, page 79.)

      We'll be back in seven days with more UFO and
paranormal news from around the planet Earth, brought
to you by "the paper that goes home--UFO Roundup.
See you then.

UFO ROUNDUP: Copyright 2000 by Masinaigan
Productions, all rights reserved.  Readers may post
news items from UFO Roundup on their websites or
in newsgroups provided that they credit the newsletter
and its editor by name and list the date of issue in
which the item first appeared.


*********************************************************
IMPORTANT Please Read:
======================

The Hunger Site
---------------
http://www.thehungersite.com

Every 3.6 seconds somebody starves to death. 3/4 of the
deaths are children under 5. By visiting the Hunger Site
and clicking on a button you can donate free food.

There is absolutely no charge to you for the donation -
the food is paid for by sponsors.

Do this once a day (no more) and help make a difference!
If you have a web site download a banner and give a link!
*********************************************************

E-Mail Reports to: Joseph Trainor <Masinaigan@aol.com>
or use the Sighting Report Form at:

http://ufoinfo.com/forms/form_sighting.htm


Website comments: John Hayes <webmaster@ufoinfo.com>

UFOINFO: http://ufoinfo.com

Official Archives of the UK UFO Network Bulletin,
AUFORN Australian UFO Reports and Experiences,
UFO + PSI Magazine also available, plus archives of
Filer's Files.






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   Apr > Apr 19

               Re: Friedman On Siegel Show Late Sunday Night,

From: Ron Cecchini <Ron.Cecchini@GD-CS.COM>
Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 20:32:57 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 21:01:36 -0400
Subject: Re: Friedman On Siegel Show Late Sunday Night,


Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 17:02:48 -0300
From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
Subject: Friedman On Siegel Show Late Sunday Night, April 23
To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >I have just agreed to appear on the Mike Siegel (Art Bell's
 >replacement) show on late Sunday night. I have never, to the
 >best of my knowledge, done a show with him. He apparently has
 >been a radio talk show guy for many many years. Could be
 >Interesting with the fuss about Area 51

 From what I've heard so far, Siegel seems to be a genuinely nice
& polite guy... I always thought Art was as polite as can be,
but Mike seems to be even politer.  But, for what its worth,
it's my Impression that he gives more credence to things than
even Art would.

Was there any Inkling of what you'd be discussing? Did they just
ask you out of the blue to come on & talk?

 >and who knows what else.

... I'd be willing to bet Cydonia comes up.

 >Tune In, call In,

Ah, damn. Boston doesn't get the Sunday night show. (I think)

Well, it's always archived...  Have fun.

take care
ron








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               Re: Friedman On Siegel Show Late Sunday Night,

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 21:25:37 -0400 (EDT)
Fwd Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 08:27:01 -0400
Subject: Re: Friedman On Siegel Show Late Sunday Night,


 >Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 20:32:57 -0400
 >From: Ron Cecchini <Ron.Cecchini@GD-CS.COM>
 >Subject: Re: Friedman On Siegel Show Late Sunday Night, April 23
 >To: 'UFO UpDates - Toronto' <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 17:02:48 -0300
 >From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
 >Subject: Friedman On Siegel Show Late Sunday Night, April 23
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >>I have just agreed to appear on the Mike Siegel (Art Bell's
 >>replacement) show on late Sunday night. I have never, to the
 >>best of my knowledge, done a show with him. He apparently has
 >>been a radio talk show guy for many many years. Could be
 >>Interesting with the fuss about Area 51

 >From what I've heard so far, Siegel seems to be a genuinely nice
 >& polite guy... I always thought Art was as polite as can be,
 >Snip

Dear Ron... and everyone else.

Ron, Polite? Who? Art Bell? We talkin' about the same dude? The
only time Art was polite was when he was working 20 SSB.
Otherwise, Art Bell was the last thing in the world but polite.
Uh, unless you are comparing him with Brad Crandel (may he RIP).

Polite was Big Wilson (may he also RIP). Polite is our host
right here on UpPates on his show. Polite is Jeff Rense. But I
am afraid (and this is purely my opinion) Art Bell was the last
thing in the world but polite.

It's like the old comedy routine:

"Art Bell was polite to his guests."

"How polite was he?"

"Art Bell was so polite, he made Gesundt look like the Christian
Messiah! Art Bell was so polite, he makes Sadam sound like
Kahlil Gibran, Don Rickles like Bishop Fulton J. Sheen (JMJ)."

I will enjoy anything you do, Stan, but I'll enjoy it most of
all when you do it with Rense or Errol Bruce-Knapp.

Meanwhile and excuse the spelling errors, a belated Zeesen
Pasoch to those of you all, and to the rest, Happy Easter.
Notice there are, in my silly fossify, only the two ... Jewish
or Italian Catholic. Anyone else, eat your hearts out. We get
the best food on our holidays. Nya nya.

Jim Mortellaro









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   Apr > Apr 20

                            New Search For Aliens

From: Steven L. Wilson Sr <Ndunlks@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 21:44:59 -0400 (EDT)
Fwd Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 08:31:23 -0400
Subject: New Search For Aliens

Source: BBC News

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/americas/newsid_719000/719951.stm


Wednesday, 19 April, 2000, 22:44 GMT 23:44 UK

New search for aliens


Will this project find other signs of life in the universe?

By the BBC's Richard Hollingham Scientists in the United States
have unveiled their latest project to look for signs of other
intelligent life in the universe.

If it is ever completed, the telescope will be the world's most
advanced tool for seeking out signals from civilisations
elsewhere in space.

SETI, or the Search for Extraterrestrial Intelligence, has been
operating since 1992.

At the moment, the privately-funded project relies on using
available time on the world's biggest radio telescopes such as
the one at Arecibo in Puerto Rico.

But this arrangement is not ideal, and the scientists at SETI
have been planning their own telescope completely devoted to
seeking out new life and civilisation.

Satellite dishes

Once completed, the One Hectare telescope will consist of a
field of small individual satellite dishes, which will operate
together in an array.

Scientists will use a prototype of just a few dishes to iron out
any problems.

They work out how to shield the telescope from the massive
amount of interference caused by the millions of radio signals
generated by humanity.

Many scientists believe there is life elsewhere in the universe
but so far there is little evidence to suggest that any of it
might be intelligent.

Despite the release earlier this week of satellite pictures
which show the secret area 51 test site in Nevada to be nothing
more than an airfield, UFO buffs are still convinced the US base
contains alien technology.

If that is the case, then ET is already among us.








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                    BBC News: Secret 'UFO Base' Revealed

From: Steven L. Wilson Sr <Ndunlks@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 22:00:50 -0400 (EDT)
Fwd Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 08:42:42 -0400
Subject: BBC News: Secret 'UFO Base' Revealed


Source: BBC News

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/americas/newsid_717000/717459.stm


Tuesday, 18 April, 2000, 03:57 GMT 04:57 UK

Secret 'UFO base' revealed

A film allegedly smuggled from Area 51 purports to show an alien

Photographs of Area 51, the secret US airbase in Nevada where
UFO aficionados believe alien spacecraft are hidden, have been
posted on the internet. Aerial Images Inc. posted five images of
the site taken by a Russian satellite launched in 1998 to map
Earth's surface.

The photos show runways and buildings

An open-skies agreement signed in 1992 by 24 nations, including
the United States and Russia, made the effort possible.

The US Air Force only recently acknowledged that Groom Dry Lake
Air Force Base - the official name of Area 51 - even exists.

The base is 120 km northwest of Las Vegas.

The base has been the testing ground for a host of top-secret
aircraft, including the B-2 stealth bomber.

The base's airspace is restricted and civilian aircraft are not
allowed to fly over it.

But satellite overflights are allowed as part of an agreement to
verify arms-control compliance.

'No little green men'

The images are better than earlier telephoto shots from the
nearby mountains.

A satellite purportedly shot the only other known image in the
1960s.

"There are runways, there are buildings, there are buses, there
are test sites, but there aren't any little green men or
super-secret aircraft to be seen," John Hoffman, president of
Aerial Images Inc, said of the new photos.

An Air Force spokeswoman did not comment on any security
concerns about the images.

"We acknowledge having an operating site there, and the work is
classified," spokeswoman Gloria Cales said.

The work involves "operations critical to the US military and
the country's security".

The images show craters, some seemingly formed by something
dropped from the sky, others possibly by something coming out of
the ground.

Alien interview

Rumors have always cited Area 51 as a place where UFOs are
guarded by the American military.

A videotape allegedly smuggled out of Area 51 some years ago
showed what its distributors said was an alien being
interrogated by the US military.

The film's distributors, ILC, said it was shot after the Roswell
Incident in 1947, when a UFO is said to have landed in New
Mexico.

In the film, a bug-eyed alien was depicted in increasing
distress. A heart monitor sped up rapidly, then the alien was
sick.

ILC said that the alien died shortly afterwards and that it was
this alien whose autopsy was released on video.

The US Government and military deny a UFO landing took place at
Roswell.







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                       NIDS Research Update April 2000

From: Colm A Kelleher - NIDS <nids@earthlink.net>
Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 12:10:53 +0000
Fwd Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 09:24:09 -0400
Subject: NIDS Research Update April 2000


National Institute for Discovery Science - http://www.nidsci.org

NIDS Research Update April 2000

Since the last NIDS Research Update, we have added a
considerable amount of new data to our web site at:

http://www.nidsci.org

The most notable of the additions are in the 'What's New'
section and are summarized below:

(1) Oldest authentic photograph of a UFO? John Alexander
describes the investigation and photo analysis of this vintage
1945 photo of a UFO. His conclusion is that the photo is
authentic. If so the appearance of the UFO predated Kenneth
Arnold�s sighting by about two years!

(2) In September 1999 NIDS began mailings to police stations and
some media outlets around the country in order to alert people
to the new NIDS 24-hour UFO hotline at 702-798-1700. The purpose
of the mailing was to persuade agencies and organizations that
normally receive unwanted UFO reports from the public to pass
them onto NIDS.

This preliminary analysis includes the first 308 cases from the
NIDS hotline database accumulated since late September/October
1999 and represents a majority (55-60%) of recent sightings from
1999 and 2000.

Of the 308 database cases analyzed: 42% involved multiple
eyewitnesses, 19.2% occurred during the day (6am-6pm), 71.4%
lasted for longer than 1 minute, 84.3% occurred during clear
weather, 19% were triangular craft, 33.6% were round or orbs,
11.3% were discs, 9.7% were cylindrical, 7.28% were oval or
egg-shaped, 35.7% were witnessed from less than 600 feet, 89.9%
were silent, 9% were hovering, 44.3% were described as slow/very
slow or moving less than 100 mph, 22.2% were described as larger
than � a football field.

The full report contains 11 charts showing these parameters in
more depth. As the cases continue coming into NIDS on a daily
basis we will be periodically updating this research.

(3) George Knapp video interviews. In January 2000 famed TV
journalist George Knapp sat down with four of the leading
scientists in the country who study aerial phenomenology for a
wide-ranging discussion that included scientific evidence for,
and future directions of research in, the UFO topic. Knapp
interviewed Harold Puthoff, Ph.D., who is director of the
Institute for Advanced Studies at Austin, Texas and a leading
theoretical physicist in zero point energy; Albert Harrison,
Ph.D., Professor of Psychology at U.C. Davis and a specialist on
the human consequences of space flight; Edgar Mitchell, Ph.D.,
astronaut and founder of the Institute for Noetic Sciences; and
John Schuessler MS, Aerospace Consultant who has investigated
anomalous phenomena for over 30 years.

All four scientists are members of the NIDS science advisory
board and full biographies for each individual can be accessed
on this web site under 'Personnel'. The video clips are indexed
by the scientist and by the questions asked of the scientist by
George Knapp.









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   Apr > Apr 20

                     Barry Taylor's OZ UFO Video Release

From: Philip Mantle <pmquest@dial.pipex.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 13:45:36 +0000
Fwd Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 09:51:05 -0400
Subject: Barry Taylor's OZ UFO Video Release

Dear Colleagues,

Please find below information of a new UFO video releae from
down under by my colleague Barry Taylor. If you contact Barry
concerning the video in question, please mention my name in
connection with it.

Thanks,

Philip Mantle
_____________

Video Release:

'U.F.O. Down-Under'
Produced by Barry Taylor (UFO Researcher Australia)

At last, my video footage of the June 1999 daytime sighting is
available for your viewing.

It has taken some time to get all the necessary equipment
together to edit this, and other UFO footage into the
professional presentation that it deserves.

PAL copies are now available, NTSC conversion will take another
week or so.

This UFO video contains just under 50 minutes of some unusual,
and most amazing UFO footage ever seen.

Featured in the video.


'Jellyfish' UFO

This was a 8 minute daytime sighting of a most unusual object
(UFO) that had a appendage dangling from underneath. The object
appeared to be 'swimming' because of its unusual movement and
using this 'tail' to propel itself. As the object gets further
away, you can clearly see it pulsing. Zoomed close-ups of the
object show the 'tail' action.


Cluster UFOs

This is the best Video footage ever taken of the 'Cluster'
UFO's. Five different "clusters" are featured, including zooms
showing their unusual rolling action around one another.

This 50 minute daytime sighting also includes orange and
spectrum blue UFO objects. When these objects flew in front of
cloud, you can see the upright cylinder shape of the object.
These are also zoomed so that you can get a better look at their
shape.

Some 3D animation is used to show the UFO Discs in Boomerang and
'V' Formations that I witnessed, but unable to catch on video.
This will give you an idea of what they look like.

Some still images of the April 1998 UFO 'Flap' are also
included.

A section on the 'Hoax UFOs' is included, showing some of the
most interesting ones.

Low flying UFO's slowly flying over Grafton at night are
included.

Good footage of the 'Iridium Flare' shows how bright they are.

A Triangle Formation of 3 UFOs just west of town.

At the end of the main video, during the credits, I have
included short clips of night time UFO Discs flying in Groups
and 'V' formations. Watch this section closly, and you will see
them.

Overall, the video is a beauty. You will be well informed and
entertained by this video.

To order your copy now, State NTSC or PAL format, send cheque or
Money order of AU$40 (inc.p&p) to:

Video Offer
P.O. Box 679
Grafton
N.S.W. 2460
Australia


E-mail: stingray@nor.com.au

Thanking you for your support

Regards,

Barry Taylor


                 *********************************************
                           Personal UFO Web Page..
                    http://www.nor.com.au/users/stingray/

             Video soon available of 50min. 'Cluster UFO' sighting.
               Order your copy now. (State NTSC or PAL format)
                 *********************************************








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                        'UFOs in China' - A New Book

From: Richard D. Nolane <raynaud@total.net>
Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 11:30:45 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 11:36:19 -0400
Subject: 'UFOs in China' - A New Book


Dear list members,

If you can read French, here is a fine new book about UFOs in
China, 'OVNI: Nouveaux Dossiers Chinois' (UFOs: New Chinese
Files') by the well known Chinese ufologist Shi Bo who had
already published two previous books in France.

The book presents 16 investigations translated directly from
chinese. These investigations were done by Shi Bo and/or other
chinese ufologists. The witnesses are most of the time from
country people living far away from city life and medias. They
are fresh, sometimes a bit nave, and therefore make these cases
very interesting for western researchers. Among them one can
find abduction stories and several very strange stories of
people taken by air to other places by humanod entities. A fine
book by a new small swiss publisher.

The publisher is:

Editions Aldane,
Case Postale 100,
CH-1216
COINTRIN,
Switzerland
e-mail: aldane@dplanet.ch

The price of the book (260 p., trade paperback) is 32 Swiss
Francs (around US$20) plus 5 SF (around 3 US$) for postage in
Europe and by surface mail elsewhere. For airmail fees, please
contact them by e-mail.

RDN






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   Apr > Apr 21

                          Re: New Search For Aliens

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 17:26:41 -0400 (EDT)
Fwd Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2000 01:12:03 -0400
Subject: Re: New Search For Aliens


 >Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 21:44:59 -0400 (EDT)
 >From: Steven L. Wilson Sr <Ndunlks@aol.com>
 >Subject: New Search For Aliens
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >Source: BBC News

 >http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/americas/newsid_719000/719951.stm

 >Wednesday, 19 April, 2000, 22:44 GMT 23:44 UK

 >New search for aliens

 >Will this project find other signs of life in the universe?

 >By the BBC's Richard Hollingham Scientists in the United States
 >have unveiled their latest project to look for signs of other
 >intelligent life in the universe.

 >If it is ever completed, the telescope will be the world's most
 >advanced tool for seeking out signals from civilisations
 >elsewhere in space.

 >SETI, or the Search for Extraterrestrial Intelligence, has been
 >operating since 1992.

 >At the moment, the privately-funded project relies on using
 >available time on the world's biggest radio telescopes such as
 >the one at Arecibo in Puerto Rico.

 >But this arrangement is not ideal, and the scientists at SETI
 >have been planning their own telescope completely devoted to
 >seeking out new life and civilisation.

 >Satellite dishes

 >Once completed, the One Hectare telescope will consist of a
 >field of small individual satellite dishes, which will operate
 >together in an array.

 >Scientists will use a prototype of just a few dishes to iron out
 >any problems.

 >They work out how to shield the telescope from the massive
 >amount of interference caused by the millions of radio signals
 >generated by humanity.

 >Many scientists believe there is life elsewhere in the universe
 >but so far there is little evidence to suggest that any of it
 >might be intelligent.

 >Despite the release earlier this week of satellite pictures
 >which show the secret area 51 test site in Nevada to be nothing
 >more than an airfield, UFO buffs are still convinced the US base
 >contains alien technology.

 >If that is the case, then ET is already among us.

Dear Errol, Listers, The BBC and etc.,

Boy oh boy. We just can't wait for the first real WOW signal
from Hectare. Perhaps it will be a powerful signal aimed at us.
Perhaps it will be a weak signal aimed at no one in particular.
Perhaps.

Looking for signals from other planets is fun and exciting. I
perceive it to be a little like Ham Radio. Only much more
important of course. The differences between SETI and Hams are
the distances involved. Could be centuries by the time we get an
answer. Could be centuries before we find out it's just a
Sitcom. An Alien sitcom.

Could be.

Could be a fluke too. Some signal generated as a result of an
unknown event in an unknown galaxy far, far away. I mean there
are so many unknowns. The first big unknown is, whether or not
there are any aliens out there. Logically, there must be. Mostly
because of the cazillions of galaxies contain cazillions of
stars in each one. Gosh. It would seem impossible that in all
them cazillions, there wasn't some organism out there squirming
in the ooz.

Bruno thought that each star has a planet, and on each planet
there was the possibility of life. Even sentient life. Bruno
thought that this would enhance the glory of God, not detract
from it.

But they toasted him up before he got real far along with that
theory. "How can the life of such a man, be in the palm of some
fools hand. To see him obviously brave, they put him in a prison
cell but one time, he coulda been"... coulda been...

Seems to us here at the Gripple Institoot, that during this time
of year, during the Springtime, when not only our God arose from
the dead, but new life sprouts everywhere on our planet, that on
some other planet(s) somewhere out there, similar things are
happening. Maybe they were good little aliens and didn't need to
be saved. Maybe they know more than we do about God stuff.

Maybe they are responsible for us. Which does not detract from
the thought of a creator either, as in my silly fossify, there
is likely an Ultimate Beginning. You know, the Big Guy what
started it all.

As usual, what's this all gotta do with the search for ET? Well,
for one thing, in my view, such searching is quite valid. For
another, it doesn't matter that I believe they have been around
here for millennia. What matters is what each of us believes or
perceives as truth.

So to you Hectare antenna guys, we at the Gripple Institoot wish
you good luck in your search. However, and for just one time, I
wish you could be inside my shoes. Then you'd know what a drag
it is to see you looking for life out there, when there is such
right here. Among us. In our skies. In our bedrooms and in our
pants.

But that's just my opinion. I defer to yours. Just don't freak
out when I show you mine.

J. Jaime Gesundt,
President







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   Apr > Apr 21

                                Real X-Files

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2000 00:21:11 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2000 01:30:39 -0400
Subject: Real X-Files


To Be Published May 1:
The UFO-FBI Connection
by Bruce Maccabee

Available soon on Amazon.com (see picture of cover on their web
site) and in local bookstores.

There were sightings filed under 'Security Matter - X'

- the REAL X files.

-Was it confusion or COVER UP?

Read and decide on your own.

FACTS ABOUT THE UFO
                  B
           CONNECTION

        THE REAL X-FILES

This book is based on the files of the FBI, Air Force
Intelligence and the CIA. It tells the history of the FBI
involvement and of the Air Force activities as seen through the
'eyes' of the FBI. The AF told the FBI things that it didn't
tell the American people!


Fact 1: July 10, 1947, Air Force Intelligence asked the FBI to
interview witnesses. The Air Force was worried that some
sighting reports might come from communist sympathizers.

Fact 2: The FBI officially investigated during the late summer
of 1947. The FBI interviewed a dozen and a half or so witnesses
and found no evidence of communist sympathizers, but did find
unexplainable sightings. Many of these interviews and sighting
reports were filed under 'Security Matter - X'..... so these are
the 'Real-X Files'.

Fact 3: Air Force Intelligence supplied the FBI with secret
UFO-related information from the summer of 1947 until the middle
of the 1950's. Some of this information did not appear in the
files of Project Blue Book (1952-1969) which include the files
of Project Sign (1948) and Project Grudge (1949-1951), or in the
Air Force .

Fact 4: Information supplied to the FBI during the years
1949-1950 indicated that the Air Force treated the subject
seriously even though the Air Force publicly stated that the
sightings could all be explained and that there was no threat to
the United States.

Fact 5: In January 1949 an Air Force Colonel at Oak Ridge,
Tennessee, who directed the project to create and atomic powered
aircraft, told the FBI that saucers were real and were weapons
of the Soviet Union.

Fact 6: In 1949 and 1950 the FBI was told by the Air Force
intelligence that the saucer project had been ended. But then
the FBI received further requests for sighting information which
proved that the Air Force was still investigating. The confusion
of the Air Force investigators over whether or not saucers were
weapons of another nation or something else is evident in the
FBI file.

Fact 7: During 1949 and 1950 numerous 'green fireballs' were
observed flying over restricted military installations in New
Mexico and Texas. These military installations were associated
with the construction and storage of atomic weapons. The
security agencies were very worried that these "fireballs" were
Soviet missiles. The Air Force reports also indicate a "disc
shaped variation" also reported by Air Force security personnel.
The local FBI agents reported numerous times to headquarters
(Hoover) about these sightings. In 1950 the AF project set up to
investigate these sightings (Project Twinkle) obtained
photographic _proof_ of saucer reality. This proof is presented
publicly for the first time in this book.

Fact 8: On July 29,1952, a week after saucers appeared over
Washington, DC, the FBI was told by Air Force Intelligence that
roughly 3% of the sightings could _not_ be explained and that it
was "not entirely impossible" that some saucers were "ships from
another planet." On the _same_ day the General in charge of Air
Force Intelligence ( General Samford) held a press conference
and told the American public that sightings were all explainable
as natural phenomena such as mirages and "temperature
inversions" (affecting radar).

Fact 9: In October, 1952, the FBI was told that some AF officers
were "seriously considering the possibility of interplanetary
ships."

Fact 10: In 1956 an FBI employee and an employee of the National
Security Agency saw and reported to the FBI a UFO

Fact 11: The FBI file contains several reports by the agent who
investigated the Lonnie Zamorra/Socorro, New Mexico case of
April 24, 1964.

Fact 12: The FBI file has a memorandum which indicates that when
Jimmy Carter became President he did query government agencies
about their UFO activities, as he had promised before the
election.

Fact 13: The FBI does not now investigate sightings

Fact 14: In the spring of 1998 the FBI placed on the web the
roughly 1600 pages of UFO files... see:

www.fbi.gov

and check for FOIA documents.









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   Apr > Apr 21

                 UFO Buffs Flock To Hacked Area 51 Web Site

From: Steven L. Wilson Sr <Ndunlks@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2000 03:24:40 -0400 (EDT)
Fwd Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2000 08:21:31 -0400
Subject: UFO Buffs Flock To Hacked Area 51 Web Site


The Hackers Are Out There

UFO Buffs Flock to Hacked Web Site


By Martha Waggoner
The Associated Press

R A L E I G H, N.C., April 20 — A hacker disrupted service for
36 hours at the Web site that published satellite images of Area
51, the top-secret Air Force test site in Nevada that has
fascinated UFO and conspiracy theorists for decades.

The attack, combined with traffic 10 times what the site usually
bears, meant millions of people had difficulty accessing the
site or could not connect with it at all, the company said
today.

Did the attack come from outer space? From the U.S. military? Or
a bored computer geek? The company wouldn"t say today, citing an
ongoing investigation.

The site, www.terraserver.com, was running today, although some
delays were possible.

"I won"t tell you it"s completely solved," said John Hoffman,
president of Raleigh-based Aerial Images Inc., which owns and
operates the site. "We"ve taken steps to mitigate its effect.
It"s almost a fact of being online these days."

Attack Just Before Unveiling

The attack began within six hours of when images of the
8,000-square-mile Area 51, home to Groom Dry Lake Air Force
Base, became available at 8 p.m. Monday, Hoffman said.

The site is averaging 7 million to 8 million page views per day;
typically, it averages 700,000 to 800,000. Aerial Images had
expected from 3 million to 5 million daily views after the Area
51 images were posted.

"As you can imagine, it takes a while to figure it out when
you"ve got that huge volume of traffic," Hoffman said. "Sorting
it out is challenging."

Another Denial of Service?

Hoffman declined to provide details of the attack. But John Pike
of the Federation of American Scientists in Washington, D.C.,
said he would guess the attack was an external denial of
service, like the one that happened to yahoo.com a few months
ago, and not from someone who gained access to the server.

"If you assume it"s a denial-of-service attack, and you"re
getting a lot of traffic, it can be difficult to figure out if
it"s all from legitimate users or if some significant chunk is
from a machine set up to specifically overload your server,"
said Pike, the federation"s Webmaster.

The release of the images stirred up great interest in the base,
which the Air Force only recently acknowledged even existed. The
base is 75 miles northwest of Las Vegas, in the arid, rugged
Nellis Range. Its Area 51 nickname comes from its designation on
old Nevada test site maps.

Beginning with the U-2 spy plane in the 1950s, the base has been
the testing ground for top-secret aircraft, including the SR-71
Blackbird and, more recently, the F-117A stealth fighter and B-2
stealth bomber.

Aircraft are not allowed to fly over the base, but satellite
overflights are allowed as part of an agreement to verify
arms-control compliance.



Copyright 2000 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This
material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or
redistributed.









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                      Pentagon: No ETs In Our Programs

From: Steven L. Wilson Sr <Ndunlks@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2000 03:26:20 -0400 (EDT)
Fwd Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2000 08:27:05 -0400
Subject: Pentagon: No ETs In Our Programs


Pentagon: No ETs in our programs

April 19, 2000
Web posted at: 12:33 PM EDT (1633 GMT)

WASHINGTON (AP) -- Believe it or not, the Pentagon denied that
extraterrestrials participate in classified U.S. military
programs.

Spokesman Ken Bacon was responding to reporters' questions about
Monday's Internet posting of the first detailed satellite images
of Area 51, the super-secret Air Force test site in Nevada that
UFO buffs think holds alien technology.

Asked Tuesday if the Internet posting revealed military secrets,
Bacon said he was "not aware that any information was revealed
that compromised" military activities.

"Since Sputnik, we have operated in a world of overhead
surveillance, and we have had more than 40 years to learn how to
deal with overhead surveillance," he said.

Asked to confirm or deny whether alien spacecraft or anything
extraterrestrial has ever been stored at the facility, Bacon
didn't answer directly.

"I think I can say beyond a shadow of a doubt that we have no
classified program that relies on aliens from outer space," he
joked.

Raleigh, North Carolina-based Aerial Images Inc. -- in
collaboration with Kodak, Digital Equipment Corp., Autometric
Inc. and the Russian agency Sovinformsputnik -- posted five
images of the hush-hush desert proving ground on the Web at
http://www.terraserver.com.

"This is the first glimpse into the most secret training and
testing facility for the Air Force," said John Hoffman,
president of Aerial Images.

Copyright 2000 The Associated Press. All rights reserved.









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   Apr > Apr 21

                     Budd Hopkins On 'UFO Desk' Program

From: Paul Williams <paulw@escape.com>
Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2000 10:41:52 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2000 12:08:26 -0400
Subject: Budd Hopkins On 'UFO Desk' Program


All,

Just a moment of your time, to share that author, artist, UFO
abduction specialist Budd Hopkins will be my guest on the
upcoming 'UFO Desk'. Sunday night/Monday morning 1:00 am east
coast time, 10pm for you left coasters.

The topic will be the upcoming Saturday, May 6, 2000, Intruders
Foundation Conference at New York Hall of Science (NYHoS), 47-01
111th Street, Flushing Meadows, Corona Park, New York.

The show is webcast and the link can be found at my website:

www.anomalies.net/~ufodesk

UFO Desk is produced at WBAI NY 99.5 FM.

Hope you can make it. Please visit UFO Desk website for more.


Thank you for your time.

Paul Williams
Executive Producer UFO Desk
WBAI NY 99.5 FM
www.anomalies.net/~ufodesk
archives at
www.shadiepines.com







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                        'Further Reading' Book List?

From: Philip Mantle <pmquest@dial.pipex.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 15:33:58 +0000
Fwd Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2000 12:17:36 -0400
Subject: 'Further Reading' Book List?


Dear Colleagues,

Once again I would like to ask for your assistance. I am putting
together a 'Further Reading' list at the back of my new book on
the alien autopsy film. I am looking for books that have dealt
with the alien autopsy film either in part or in full. I require
the title, author, publisher and ISBN number.

If you can help with such information please contact me via
e-mail direct at: pmquest@dial.pipex.com

Many thanks,

Philip.







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                              Re: Real X-Files

From: Georgina Bruni <georgina@easynet.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2000 17:02:50 +0100
Fwd Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2000 12:19:22 -0400
Subject: Re: Real X-Files


 >Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2000 00:21:11 -0400
 >From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >Subject: Real X-Files
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >To Be Published May 1:
 >The UFO-FBI Connection
 >by Bruce Maccabee

<snip>

Congratulations Bruce.

Georgina Bruni







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   Apr > Apr 22

                Re: Arnold's Sighting And Ufology's First Law

From: James Easton <voyager@ukonline.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2000 02:52:37 +0100
Fwd Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2000 18:19:18 -0400
Subject: Re: Arnold's Sighting And Ufology's First Law


Regarding:

 >Date: Sat, 08 Apr 2000 18:24:54 -0400
 >From: Jan Aldrich <jan@cyberzone.net>
 >Subject: Arnold's Sighting And Ufology's First Law
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

Jan wrote:

 >Here is posting from some weeks ago on Project 1947 list. I
 >think it applies pretty well to Kottmeyer and Easton.


Jan,

Sounds objective already!

 >Before everyone gets all wrapped around the axle on this latest
 >Arnold request I suggest everyone read:

 >http://www.project1947.com/fig/ka.htm

 >It is obvious from the postings here that most have not read
 >this!

Seriously Jan, do you really think Arnold's letter to the Air
Force, which you reference above, would be unfamiliar?

It's only one of the accounts - his formative radio interview,
letter, book, speech at the 1977 'UFO Symposium' - which have
been subject to unprecedented, ongoing analysis during the past
6 months or so on the 'UFO Research List' (UFORL).

This needs to be set in context.

Whilst UFO UpDates reflects what 'ufology' actually is, and
admirably so, it was envisaged that UFORL, similar to the
'Project-1947' list and others, would have a specific focus.
Since I set up that forum in March 1999, there have been nearly
2000 postings, almost without exception concerned with
scientifically grounded research material and comfortably
encompassing divergent views on the subject.

Specifically, it was a stated intention that material was 'list
only' unless declared otherwise. This allows for ideas and
theories, confidential material, etc. to be discussed without
the more fanatical objections and frequently accompanying
diatribe.

Aside from the confidentiality issue, there's insufficient time
to summarise resulting insights, from whatever side - and
there's more than just two - of the Arnold debate. However, you
can be assured that all material on the public Project-1947 web
site has been dissected, particularly those invaluable newspaper
reports.

Typically, the outcome has often been more questions than
answers and whatever opposing views may be held, it's
regrettable so many of the issues which have come to light were
never addressed when Kenneth Arnold was alive and could perhaps
have resolved them.


 >There are problems with most explanations recently offered here
 >and elsewhere for Arnold's sighting.  Pelicans and other birds
 >can only fly so fast.   If you the look at the angular distance
 >and the top speed of the pelicans can reach, the pelicans had to
 >be very close and Arnold should have overhauled them.

It depends on how Arnold flew relative to those nine objects at
all times and, crucially, what his individual perceptions were.
An important unknown is exactly what Arnold meant when he
confirmed turning his airplane "around" during the brief
episode.

It has become clear there are discrepancies and inconsistencies
in Arnold's various accounts, which is perhaps only to be
expected and especially over time.

One major question is where and when Arnold first observed the
objects. According to the testimony frequently cited, his letter
to the Air Force, he was heading on a course towards Yakima and
had been for "two or three minutes". It has sometimes been
mistakenly assumed he was on route to Yakima, which was his
ultimate destination, however, at this time Arnold was still
engaged on a search for the missing C-46 transporter and
confirmed he continued with that search after his sighting.

Alternatively, in his book, Arnold claims the incident occurred,
"during this search and while making a turn of 180 degrees over
Mineral, Washington, at approximately 9200 feet altitude" and in
his much later 1977, 'UFO Symposium' speech, reiterated the
sighting began when "I made a turn at probably 2000ft over
Mineral, Washington and started climbing back slowly but
steadily, climbing to gain sufficient altitude to go back on the
high plateau again for another pass at this mountain. As I was
making this turn and of course flying directly toward Mt.
Rainier, at about 9200 ft elevation...".

So, was he, for some reason, heading slightly south of east
towards Yakima and had been for 2-3 minutes, or was he heading
north-east from Mineral towards Mt. Rainier, continuing his
search?

It does make a significant difference to the scenario.

Where also was Arnold when the sighting ended?

He stated in his letter, "The more I observed these objects the
more upset I became, as I am accustomed and familiar with most
all objects flying whether I am close to the ground or at higher
altitudes. I observed the chain of these objects passing another
high snow-covered ridge [Goat Ridge - James] in between Mt.
Rainier and Mt. Adams...

As I was flying in the direction of this particular ridge, I
measured it and found it to be approximately five miles so I
could safely assume that the chain of these saucer like objects
were at least five miles long".

However, in his book Arnold recalls, "Between Mount Rainier and
Mount Adams there is a very high plateau with quite definite
north and south edges.

[...]

I later flew over this plateau in my plane and came to a close
approximation that this whole formation of craft, whatever they
were, formed a chain in the neighborhood of five miles long...".

Was he therefore by then flying in the direction of Goat Ridge,
which means he had turned southwards, or, was it afterwards that
he flew over the ridge and formed his judgement?

Again, it makes a considerable difference to the probabilities.

How can we therefore declare he 'should' have recognised that
the formation of nine objects were of prosaic origin, birds
included, if we don't even know for certain where he was in
context at any given time during those approximate two minutes?

Arnold 'should' even more so have realised that the 25-30 small,
brass coloured objects which flew like ducks and came within 400
yards of his airplane were almost certainly wildfowl. As Arnold
noted how these were "fluttering and flashing a dull amber
colour" and was "a little bit shocked and exited when I realized
they had the same flight characteristics of the large objects I
had observed on June 24", which also of course "fluttered" and
flashed, he maybe 'should' have rationalised the likely
explanation for at least his second mass 'flying disk'
encounter.

But he didn't and either this was another 'classic' report of
multiple UFOs, or, it might be a helpful, arguably glaring, clue
we should take into account when looking at the whole picture.

 >If the Arnold objects were meteors, then they were miles away at
 >high altitude.  Then, to get this round peg into a square hole
 >you have to ignore the fact that Arnold told McDonald that some
 >of the objects went in front of Mt. Adams.   No problem for
 >people without intellectual honesty! Just ignore that!

If 'ufology' is concerned with 'intellectual honesty', perhaps
it should first of all begin to tackle the inherent issues so
consummately demonstrated in the recently 'Report on the 9th
Annual International UFO Congress Convention' -see:

http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/updates/2000/apr/m15-008.shtml

That might require considerable courage though.


 >In the 28 June 1947 Boise Statesman we find these little gems:

 >But Arnold, who returned Friday to his home on the bench above
 >Bradley airport, said he saw outlined against the snow on Mt.
 >Rainier a single-file line of flying objects....

 >Arnold said when he first saw the object, they were coming in a
 >line around Mt. Rainier from the north.  As he saw them against
 >the snow of the mountain, and saw the sun reflecting
 >individually from the objects, he said he thought they were jet
 >aircraft...

This is a point I have been emphasising on UFORL and provided a
number of more poignant examples, from Arnold's own testimonies,
than these.

The problem is, those nine objects couldn't therefore also
momentarily have disappeared behind Little Tahoma, which is on
the far eastern side of Mt. Rainier and that does seem to be
what Arnold misperceived. Consequently, his distance marker
would be miles out as would his overall perspective of size,
etc.

If Arnold had been deceived that the objects fleetingly
travelled behind a far-off landmark, when in fact they rapidly
passed in front of it, there was a chance we could still locate
evidence of this somewhere in the data and that's what has been,
for the first time ever, credibly established.

 >Arnold used a ridge to measure the approximate distance between
 >the objects.

This seems to relate to Goat Ridge - see above - not the initial
'jagged peak' which Arnold statedly used as a distance reference
at the outset.

 >I am unimpressed about what mountain climbers or park rangers
 >say about how peaks appear.

We can only ask those who can be expected to have some actual
expertise!

Presumably, you would have been no more satisfied if the
resulting evidence had corroborated Arnold's sighting, rather
than substantiating an underlying anomaly.

 >Unless they do a lot of flying, their opinions and perceptions
 >based on map reading and observations from the ground have
 >nothing to do with how these things appear from the air.

I also wrote, with the exact same enquiry, to at least one local
aviation company who provide sightseeing flights over the Mt.
Rainier area. Although they didn't respond, there's no reason
someone else can't still pursue this.

If Arnold's reported sighting is such a reliable and crucial
case in any belief that fleets of alien spacecraft have been and
continue to regularly visit Earth, surely the combined resources
of UFO organisations can take this on? Being able to actually
cite some evidence why Arnold's peak wasn't Little Tahoma might
be meaningful, especially given his story is the foundation of
all other 'flying saucer' reports, even though Arnold didn't
actually see any 'flying saucer' shaped objects at all.

Of course, it might be that any local pilots will also
corroborate why Arnold's description almost certainly refers to
Little Tahoma and your scepticism is unfounded.

What then?

Another experienced researcher who seems to concur with your
assessment of the Arnold case as solid 'UFO' evidence, is
appreciative about the probable identification of Little Tahoma
as Arnold's peak. Indeed, he insisted this must be the source,
believing that we have greatly misunderstood the overall
circumstances. It was in fact a result of this that I merely
took the 'jagged peak' enquiry to those most likely able to yet
resolve that question.

Without his approval, I won't go into details of UFORL
discussions on this, however, your opinions on these new
developments are evidently not shared. There now appear to be
fundamentally different and mutually exclusive conclusions on
what did take place.

How this divergence can be resolved is a matter for those who
maintain a belief in that 'concrete' evidence. Either way, if
the distinctive peak Arnold described was Little Tahoma, then
the case absolutely must require to be re-evaluated and the
'wrong' evidence explained.

As acknowledged on UpDates, Brad Sparks believes Little Tahoma
is 'Arnold's peak' and that those nine objects actually flew
eastwards behind Mt. Rainier and Little Tahoma. You can't have
it both ways, guys... either they flew westwards and Arnold was
evidently badly mistaken about the distance/size perspective, or
they flew eastwards and Arnold was pretty much mistaken about
everything else he claimed.

Which is it?

It's a complex issue which, as with any other aspect, I
regrettably haven't the available time to discuss and would
largely be repeating what has already been a time consuming,
although necessary and worthwhile, debate elsewhere.

However, I did mention related material in the last newsletter
and as this was posted on UFO UpDates, I'm pleased to respond to
feedback as time permits, even if this isn't always possible.

The point is that all of the above and much more has been the
subject of ongoing research, with invaluable input and
appropriate objections from others who have a detailed knowledge
of the case. As your comments seem to essentially be waving
Arnold's 'official' report and declaring 'these were UFOs, it
tells us in here and you've obviously never read the damn
thing', this perhaps needs to be thought about in relation to
the scale of objective research which has been undertaken.

The latter has probably now gone so far as it ever can, aside
from addressing some open points on UFORL. As I said at the
outset, there will ultimately be no affect on preconceived
beliefs - although I wonder if a consensus can be reached on the
aforementioned mutually exclusive opinions about what the actual
'UFO evidence' is in the Kenneth Arnold case.

A response to Brad's other points will be dealt with on UFORL,
where they originated. Some of these have actually already been
addressed and as more recently explained to Brad, there were
replies awaited from other parties whose experienced opinions I
had requested.

In a pending publication, which will be available in the US, a
re-appraisal of this classic mystery can be fully considered and
understood in context by anyone interested in Arnold's reported
sighting and the origin of 'flying saucers'.

Purposefully objective, it will be more comprehensive than
highlighting several new case developments and the evidence now
supporting, or opposing, any one explanation.


James.








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   Apr > Apr 22

                    Re: Pentagon: No ETs In Our Programs

From: Marty Nosser <ufobia@dreamsoft.com>
Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2000 03:23:57 -0700
Fwd Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2000 18:25:25 -0400
Subject: Re: Pentagon: No ETs In Our Programs


 >Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2000 03:26:20 -0400 (EDT)
 >From: Steven L. Wilson Sr <Ndunlks@aol.com>
 >Subject: Pentagon: No ETs In Our Programs
 >To: undisclosed-recipients: ;

 >Pentagon: No ETs in our programs

 >April 19, 2000
 >Web posted at: 12:33 PM EDT (1633 GMT)

 >WASHINGTON (AP) -- Believe it or not, the Pentagon denied that
 >extraterrestrials participate in classified U.S. military
 >programs.

 >Spokesman Ken Bacon was responding to reporters' questions about
 >Monday's Internet posting of the first detailed satellite images
 >of Area 51, the super-secret Air Force test site in Nevada that
 >UFO buffs think holds alien technology.

<snip>

It's quite easy to deny the existance of any alien spacecraft,
etc. had ever been stored at the Area 51 location since it has
all been moved to their new location in White Sands, Utah since
February-May of 1997.

It is refered to as "Area 6413" now.  So, the Pentagon and any
spokesman for the government and military are safe in making
such a denial. I'm sure everyone remembers this relocation, but
as a reminder... It was getting too, much publicity and exposure
from shows such as Larry King and all of the TV specials that
were bombarding our airwaves regularly during 1996-97.

I find it all quite amusing that they really believe they are
fooling the public...period! My personal opinion is: That if the
government were ever to come clean and admit to the American
Public that they did cover-up all of the alien incidents that
we've accused them of, after denying them for so long, that we,
the tax payers that monitarily have been supporting such
cover-ups and secret military technology provided by such
recovered alien spacecraft, would become self-rightious
protesters, thus never again believeing in our government, which
would eventually end up in the people overthrowing the
government at some point if things were not handled just right.

Its detrimental that a government such as ours be trusted by
its people. Once this trust has been proven deceitful, there's
no foundation left for it to stand on. This is the fear, I
believe, that makes it imposible for the government to fess-up
to any of it, no matter how obvious it becomes that they are and
have always covered up the knowledge of extraterrestrial
existance, which should have then and should be now, shared with
the world.

Such an extraordinary event affects the entire Earth and all
human life. Anyway... I guess I got carried away... but, what if?

Does anyone think there might be some truth in any of this? Was
just a thought I've had for quite some time.








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   Apr > Apr 22

                      Re: 'Further Reading' Book List?

From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2000 09:11:16 -0400 (EDT)
Fwd Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2000 18:30:21 -0400
Subject: Re: 'Further Reading' Book List?


 >Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 15:33:58 +0000
 >From: Philip Mantle <pmquest@dial.pipex.com>
 >Subject: 'Further Reading' Book List?
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

Good Morning -

This is actually a reply to the last two emails from you. First,
if the Records Center fails you again, I'm ready to help. I
normally don't ask other researchers for the confidential names
of their witnesses because I know what happens too much of the
time. However, without that information, I can't help. If they
come up with a new excuse, then the only thing I can think of is
that they don't work hard to fill requests from outside the
United States. I was going to point out that Stan Friedman lives
in Canada, but he does have a U.S. address, so the exception
doesn't stand.

Second, I have included segments on the AA in

'The Randle Report', published by M. Evans & Co.,  216 East 49th
St., New York, NY 10017. The ISBN is ISBN-0-87131-820-2 (1997)

'Faces Of The Visitors' (co-author Russ Estes), published by
Fireside, a division of Simon and Schuster, 1230 Avenue of the
Americas, New York, NY 10020, ISBN 0648-83973-3 (1997)

And, I have a segment in my 'Roswell Encyclopedia', which will be
coming from HarperCollins in Sept. 2000, but I don't have the
ISBN for it yet.

Hope all this helps.

KRandle








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   Apr > Apr 22

                New Round Of Current Midwest Sightings - St.

From: Kenny Young <ufo@fuse.net>
Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2000 12:35:51 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2000 18:35:58 -0400
Subject: New Round Of Current Midwest Sightings - St.


KTVI News, Channel 2
St. Louis, Missouri FOX affiliate:

URL Source - http://www.fox2ktvi.com/

UFO SIGHTINGS IN THE METRO EAST
April 21, 2000

Several police departments are taking calls from people who say
they saw a UFO in the Metro East early Thursday. The
Collinsville and Caseyville police departments, along with the
Illinois State Police, and St. Clair County Sheriff's Department
all received reports of UFO sightings.

The callers say they saw bright lights in the sky and report a
humming noise near the Fairmont Park area. All the reports have
been turned over to investigators at Scott Air Force Base.

These reports follow a similar sighting reported in early
January in Ironton. One family there shot videotape of a bright
object outside their home. Other reports out of Milstadt came
from police officers on patrol. One officer even snapped a
picture of the craft with his Polaroid camera.

End of report
--
UFO Research
http://home.fuse.net/ufo/







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   Apr > Apr 22

                     Expert "Sightings Likely Not UFOs"

From: Kenny Young <ufo@fuse.net>
Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2000 10:23:19 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2000 18:39:42 -0400
Subject: Expert "Sightings Likely Not UFOs"


Expert: Sightings likely not UFOs
By Christine Eufinger

The Belleville News-Democrat
Saturday, April 22, 2000

CASEYVILLE -- A rash of bright-light sightings early Thursday
could have been little green men, but UFO experts are skeptical.

Investigators with the National Institute for Discovery Science
initially were excited by reports to the Illinois State Police
and Caseyville Police early Thursday because they were so near
the Jan. 5 sightings in Highland, Lebanon, Millstadt and Dupo.
And it occurred just after 4 a.m. -- about the same time the
earlier sighting occurred, said institute investigator Roger
Pinson.

But a lack of identifiable witnesses or a precise UFO
description -- coupled with a storm Wednesday night that pelted
the area with rain, high winds and lightning -- quickly fizzled
the investigators' drive, Pinson said.

"No one was able to see an actual shape.... All people saw was
lights. There was no pattern or colors or intensity or proximity
to people that makes it difficult to, for lack of a better word,
get excited about," Pinson said.

He admitted there was a "100 percent possibility" the lights
seen Thursday were related to the craft spotted Jan. 5, but said
it was unlikely.

"I'm not saying these people didn't see a UFO like the one there
in January, but based on the totality of the circumstances --
it's a storm -- it's just a could-be," Pinson said.

He said most reported UFO sightings occur when the sky is clear,
with better visibility that allows viewers to see further and
more easily distinguish shapes of the crafts.

Illinois UFO specialists said it's not unusual that Thursday's
sighting happened within only months and several miles of each
other.

"Sightings usually go in waves," said Forest Crawford of
Collinsville, assistant director of Illinois Mutual UFO Network.
"It's actually very common to have a number of sightings in an
area over a short period of time."

But the reports that came in Thursday don't offer the many
credible witnesses -- both citizens and police officers -- who
reported sightings from Highland and down through St. Clair
County in January more support for their reports.

Officials at Scott Air Force Base and Lambert Field in St. Louis
reported no sightings or signs of spacecrafts on their radars.

The Illinois State Police received an anonymous call just before
4 a.m. Thursday reporting bright lights. And Caseyville Police
received six calls between 3:30 a.m. and 4:30 a.m., placing the
bright lights over a roughly five-mile radius between Fairmont
Park and Illinois 157 and Illinois 161.

End of article
--
UFO Research
http://home.fuse.net/ufo/








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   Apr > Apr 22

                         New Illinois UFO Data Page

From: Kenny Young <ufo@fuse.net>
Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2000 13:22:06 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2000 18:42:06 -0400
Subject: New Illinois UFO Data Page


http://home.fuse.net/ufo/illinois2000.html

Data page info contains details of "Lights" reported in fields,
a female motorist impaired by UFO and a map of region, 3
articles.


Special comments: The locations of the sightings are
Collinsville and Caseyville, Illinois, and a UFO sighting was
also reported from a race track near Fairmont Park. The time
frame of the sightings, between 3:30 and 4:30 a.m.

A 'cluster' of independently reported UFO sightings within a
close proximity on the same evening is interesting.

The St. Clair County Sheriff�s Department and Illinois State
Police received reports of bright lights in the sky with a
'humming noise.'

One interesting descriptive detail in the April 20 Illinois UFO
sightings was given by a female motorist driving near
Interstates 255 and 64. The motorist alleged that a 'bright
light in the air impaired her ability to drive.' A similar
motorist complaint compares to the recent Illinois incident, in
which a Cincinnati resident reported to the Forest Park Police
Department that a UFO seen in the vicinity of the Forest Fair
Mall impaired her ability to drive. The police report of driver
'paralysis' caused by a UFO sighting is retained by researchers,
and dated October 18, 1994.

Lastly, the KTVI Channel 2 newscast from April 21, 2000, informs
that case data of the UFO sightings on-file at the police
offices were submitted to "investigators" at Scott Air Force
Base. This is an unusual report, as the United States Air Force
does not officially investigate UFO sightings since the closure
of Project Blue Book. Given the report by KTVI news, it will be
necessary to ascertain who these 'investigators' at Scott Air
Force Base would be, and if they are acting in an official
capacity.

To review the new Illinois UFO sighting data page see the following location:
     http://home.fuse.net/ufo/illinois2000.html

Filed:
April 22, 2000
Kenny Young
--
UFO Research
http://home.fuse.net/ufo/







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   Apr > Apr 22

                         Area 51- Top-Secret Access

From: Joachim Koch <AchimKoch@compuserve.com>
Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2000 15:07:23 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2000 18:42:35 -0400
Subject: Area 51- Top-Secret Access

Date: Sat, 22 April 2000 09:43:00 GMT
From: achimkoch@compuserve.com <Joachim Koch>
To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Area 51

Hello List!

Is this website already know to you?

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/science/DailyNews/area51000418.html

Introducing text goes like this:

"Top-Secret Access

UFO Buffs Flock
to Satellite Images
of Area 51 on Internet

Satellite images of Area 51, the super-secret Air Force test site in
Groom Dry Lake Air Force Base in Nevada that has long tantalized UFO
and conspiracy buffs, are being posted on the Internet.
(Aerial Images Inc./AP Photo)"

Best wishes

Joachim Koch, Berlin











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   Apr > Apr 22

                         Area 51- Top-Secret Access

From: Joachim Koch <AchimKoch@compuserve.com>
Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2000 15:07:23 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2000 18:48:49 -0400
Subject: Area 51- Top-Secret Access


Hello List!

Is this website already know to you?

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/science/DailyNews/area51000418.html

Introducing text goes like this:

"Top-Secret Access

UFO Buffs Flock
to Satellite Images
of Area 51 on Internet

Satellite images of Area 51, the super-secret Air Force test
site in Groom Dry Lake Air Force Base in Nevada that has long
tantalized UFO and conspiracy buffs, are being posted on the
Internet. (Aerial Images Inc./AP Photo)"

Best wishes

Joachim Koch, Berlin











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   Apr > Apr 22

                      Re: 'Further Reading' Book List?

From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2000 23:07:44 -0300
Fwd Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2000 22:28:45 -0400
Subject: Re: 'Further Reading' Book List?


 >Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2000 09:11:16 -0400 (EDT)
 >From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com>
 >Subject: Re: 'Further Reading' Book List?
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >>Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 15:33:58 +0000
 >>From: Philip Mantle <pmquest@dial.pipex.com>
 >>Subject: 'Further Reading' Book List?
 >>To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >Good Morning -

 >This is actually a reply to the last two emails from you. First,
 >if the Records Center fails you again, I'm ready to help. I
 >normally don't ask other researchers for the confidential names
 >of their witnesses because I know what happens too much of the
 >time. However, without that information, I can't help. If they
 >come up with a new excuse, then the only thing I can think of is
 >that they don't work hard to fill requests from outside the
 >United States. I was going to point out that Stan Friedman lives
 >in Canada, but he does have a U.S. address, so the exception
 >doesn't stand.

 >Second, I have included segments on the AA in

 >'The Randle Report', published by M. Evans & Co.,  216 East 49th
 >St., New York, NY 10017. The ISBN is ISBN-0-87131-820-2 (1997)

 >'Faces Of The Visitors' (co-author Russ Estes), published by
 >Fireside, a division of Simon and Schuster, 1230 Avenue of the
 >Americas, New York, NY 10020, ISBN 0648-83973-3 (1997)

 >And, I have a segment in my 'Roswell Encyclopedia', which will be
 >coming from HarperCollins in Sept. 2000, but I don't have the
 >ISBN for it yet.

 >Hope all this helps.

 >KRandle


I always use my Canadian address when seeking FOIA type info.
However, I also note that I am a US Citizen. Which I still am
besides being a Canadian as well. Whether that matters or not I
can't say.

When trying to get the CIA documents found by the NSA, it took 2
years to get a response. I filed an appeal and it was another 3
years before they released 4 very heavily censored documents of
the 14 of their own documents that the NSA had listed.

The wheels grind slowly...

Stan Friedman









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   Apr > Apr 22

                      Jeff Rense Weekly E-News 4-22-00

From: Rense E-News <jocelyn@dewittec.net>
Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2000 02:23:07 +0000
Fwd Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2000 22:35:15 -0400
Subject: Jeff Rense Weekly E-News  4-22-00


----------------------------------------------------------------
                     Jeff Rense Weekly E-News
----------------------------------------------------------------

                         The Week Ahead
                      4-23-00 thru 4-29-00

            Guests, Announcements, Week's Top Stories
                        From sightings.com

                Jeff Rense E-News is distributed
                exclusively by Free Subscription.

                  --<>--   --<<<+>>>--  --<>--

                      * FROM JEFF'S DESK *

The Bunny hops faster every year...it's Easter time once again.
Among our programs next week, a visit to South Africa to talk
with legendary UFO researcher, Cynthia Hind, who has much to say
about our visitors' activity over, and on, that troubled
continent. Did you know there is a bill now in the House which
would abolish the IRS and institute a national sales tax in its
place?  There is, and Dan Mastromarco will be here on Wednesday
to discuss HR 2525.  Several other guests are 'pending' and we'll
have to see what develops...schedules seem to be a bit strained
lately. Linda Howe will be here for her monthly report a little
later than usual...but she's always worth the wait.  Meantime,
whatever your religious or spiritual persuasion, my best wishes
for a peaceful, thoughtful, restful, and happy weekend.

 From John Paul Marshall <johnpaul@sirius.com>

   Investigators at a major research institution have discovered
   the heaviest element known to science.  This startling new
   discovery has been tentatively named Administratium (Ad).

   This new element has no protons or electrons, thus having an
   atomic number of 0. It does, however, have 1 neutron,
   125 assistant neutrons, 75 vice neutrons, and  111 assistant
   vice neutrons, giving it an atomic mass of 312.

   These 312 particles are held together by a force called morons,
   which are surrounded by vast quantities of lepton-like
   particles called peons.

   Since it has no electrons, Administratium is inert. However, it
   can be detected as it impedes every reaction with which it
   comes into contact.  According to the discoverers, a minute
   amount of Administratium causes one reaction to take over four
   days to complete when it would normally take less than a
   second.

   Administratium has a normal half-life of approximately three
   years; it does not decay but instead undergoes a reorganization
   in which a portion of the assistant neutrons, vice neutrons,
   and assistant vice neutrons exchange places.

   In fact, an Administratium sample's mass will actually increase
   over time, since with each reorganization, some of the morons
   inevitably become neutrons, forming new isotopes.

   This characteristic of moron promotion leads some scientists to
   speculate that  Administratium is formed whenever morons reach
   a certain quantity in concentration.

   This hypothetical quantity is referred to as the "Critical
   Morass".
   _____

 From Lorie Kramer <seektress@ev1.net>

    The Washington Post recently published a contest for readers
    in which they were asked to supply alternate meanings for
    various words. The following were some of the winning entries:

    Abdicate (v.), to give up all hope of ever having a flat
       stomach.

    Carcinoma (n.), a valley in California, notable for its heavy
       smog.

    Esplanade (v.), to attempt an explanation while drunk.

    Willy-nilly (adj.), impotent

    Flabbergasted (adj.), appalled over how much weight you have
       gained.

    Negligent (adj.), describes a condition in which you
       Absentmindedly answer the door in your nightie.

    Lymph (v.), to walk with a lisp.

    Gargoyle (n.), an olive-flavored mouthwash.

    Bustard (n.), a very rude Metrobus driver.

    Coffee (n.), a person who is coughed upon.

    Flatulence (n.) the emergency vehicle that picks you up after
       you are run over by a steamroller.

    Balderdash (n.), a rapidly receding hairline.

    Testicle (n.), a humorous question on an exam.

    Semantics (n.), pranks conducted by young men studying for the
       priesthood, including such things as gluing the pages of
       the priest's prayer book together just before vespers.

    Rectitude (n.), the formal, dignified demeanor assumed by a
       proctologist immediately before he Examines you.

    Marionettes (n.), residents of Washington, D.C. who have been
       Jerked around by the mayor.

    Oyster (n.), a person who sprinkles his conversation with
       Yiddish expressions.

    Circumvent (n.), the opening in the front of boxer shorts.

    Frisbatarianism (n.), The belief that, when you die, your soul
       Goes up on the roof and gets stuck there.
    _____

    The Washington Post's Style Invitational also asked readers to
    Take any word from the dictionary, alter it by adding,
    subtracting or changing one letter, and supply a new
    definition. Here are some recent winners:

    Sarchasm:  The gulf between the author of sarcastic wit and
       the reader who doesn't get it.

    Reintarnation:  Coming back to life as a hillbilly.

    Giraffiti:  Vandalism spray-painted very high.

    Foreploy:  Any misrepresentation about yourself for the
       purpose of obtaining sex.

    Innoculatte:  To take coffee intravenously.

    Osteopornosis:  A degenerate disease.

    Karmageddon:  It's like, when everybody is sending off all
       These really bad vibes, right? And then, like, the Earth
       explodes and it's like a serious bummer.

    Glibido:  All talk and no action.

    Dopeler effect:  The tendency of stupid ideas to seem smarter
       When they come at you rapidly.

    Intaxication:  Euphoria at getting a refund from the IRS,
       which lasts until you realize it was your money to start
       with.

                   --<>--   --<<<+>>>--  --<>--

           "Someday, after we have mastered the winds,
           the waves, the tides and gravity, we shall
           harness the energies of love. Then, for the
           second time in the history of the world,
           man will have discovered fire."
                            -- Pierre Teilhard de Chardin

                  --<>--  --<<<+>>>--  --<>--

                       Occult Theocrasy

   An unmatched 741 page reference on secret societies, their
   roots, philosophies, religious beliefs, goals and much more.
   Published posthumously.  See the table of contents:
      http://www.hiddenmysteries.com/redir/index37.html

                  --<>--  --<<<+>>>--  --<>--

                        * TOP STORIES *

           Just a few of last week's most intriguing!
                      http://sightings.com

   * Agents Snatch Elian From Miami Relatives
   * UPDATE Chemtrail Breakthrough...Via Blacklight?
   * Fossilized Dinosaur Heart Found - Points Stongly To Dinos
       Being Warm-Blooded
   * Warmest Weather In Recorded History Causing Many New Hazards
   * 'New Cigarette' Blasted As 'Unethical Unregulated Research'
       On The Public
   * Gray Whale Death Toll Puzzles Researchers
   * US Prison Population May Pass 2 Million Next Year
   * 'First Authentic' UFO Photograph Analysis By NIDS
   * MI5 Papers Cast New Light On Hitler's Last Days & 'King Kong'
        Betrayal
   * High-Fiber Diets Do Not Reduce Colon Cancer Risk
   * Herpes Virus Targets And Destroys Cancer Cells In Mice
   * The French COMETA Report On UFOs And Defense - A Summary
   * Don't Like Getting Snooped On? Too Bad
   * Baghdad, Belgrade And Moscow Collaborate Against Washington
   * Negatives From Film Shot At Waco Are Missing...(big surprise)
   * The IMF & World Bank - Two Instruments Of National
        Destruction
   * Net Satellite Photos Bring Area 51 Into Full View
   * Bin Laden Terrorists Plan Nerve Gas Attacks - Israel Stays
        Silent
   * Boy Apparently Dies From Longterm Ritalin Use
   * Coleman Testimony On CIA's PAN AM 103 Drug Smuggling
        Corroborated
   * Easter Sunday World Peace Meditation
   * New Non-Lethal Weapons May Be Used Against US Citizens
   * Body Donors Fueling A Booming Business
   * Sony's New PlayStation 2 Good Enough To Guide Military
        Missiles?
   * Scores Of RODS Videotaped Over Japan - See For Yourself
   * The House Of Butterflies: Dupont And Leaded Gas
   * Police Use Force On DC IMF Protestors
   * Aspartame Health Problems Continue Long After Stopping
        Ingestion
   * Top Ten Worst Cars Of All-Time!
   * The Red Chinese Secret Police In The United States, Part
        Three
   * The NEW U.S. Army?
   * Man 'Made Cold By The Universe' Seen By Scores Who Knew Him
   * Single Doses Of Ginko And Ginseng Can Boost Memory
   * If I Were The Devil

Read these stories and more at http://www.sightings.com

                   --<>--   --<<<+>>>--  --<>--

                        The Books of Enoch

The Enochian language has been called "the language of the Gods."
These incredible books are incredibly rich and varied, they are
incomparable for the eye-opening knowledge they contain.
       http://www.hiddenmysteries.com/redir/index12.html

                   --<>--  --<<<+>>>--  --<>--

                     * THIS WEEK'S GUESTS *
                          4-23 thru 4-28

(Please note Jeff's Guest schedule can change due to late
breaking stories, etc)

SUN 4-23  Encore
    Brad Steiger:  A Paranormal Evening

MON 4-24
    Paul Smith:  Remote Viewing Developments
    Skip Goebel:  Just Back From Kosovo

TUE 4-25
    Linda Howe:  World Environment Report
    Graham Conway:  UFO*BC Canada UFO Report
    From South Africa - Cynthia Hind:  UFOs Over Africa

WED 4-26
    Dan Mastromarco:  HR 2525 Bill To Abolish The IRS
    Bob Kiviat:  Producer New Fox TV UFO Special

THU 4-27
    Richard Rubacher:  The Ramsey Case

FRI 4-28
    Pending

Live Real Audio Broadcasts & Archives: http://www.sightings.com

                   --<>--   --<<<+>>>--  --<>--

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   Apr > Apr 23

                                Celebration?

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2000 23:06:46 -0400
Fwd Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2000 01:37:26 -0400
Subject: Celebration?


May 11, 2000 at 7:30 PM....  Thursday evening.....

Exact 50th anniversary of two of the most famous photos in ufology.
Too bad the Trents didn't live to see their fiftieth....

However, you, dear reader, did live that long (I presume) .....
Therefore you can take part in the celebration to take place at
the Hotel Oregon

See....

http://www.mcmenamins.com/McHO/index.html

Go to this web page and you will see... (scroll down)....








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                       Re: New Illinois UFO Data Page

From: Donnie W. Shevlin <dshevlin@charter.net>
Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2000 00:04:17 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2000 01:40:44 -0400
Subject: Re: New Illinois UFO Data Page


 >Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2000 13:22:06 -0400
 >From: Kenny Young <ufo@fuse.net>
 >Subject: New Illinois UFO Data Page
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >http://home.fuse.net/ufo/illinois2000.html

 >Data page info contains details of "Lights" reported in fields,
 >a female motorist impaired by UFO and a map of region, 3
 >articles.

 >Special comments: The locations of the sightings are
 >Collinsville and Caseyville, Illinois, and a UFO sighting was
 >also reported from a race track near Fairmont Park. The time
 >frame of the sightings, between 3:30 and 4:30 a.m.

 >A 'cluster' of independently reported UFO sightings within a
 >close proximity on the same evening is interesting.

 >The St. Clair County Sheriff�s Department and Illinois State
 >Police received reports of bright lights in the sky with a
 >'humming noise.'

<snip>


Hi you'all,

Well, I am stunned. This is right in my back yard, literally.
This is the first I have heard of this though. To get some
insight, I will ask some questions of my brother that works the
midnight shift at Fairmont Race track. If there was something to
see, I am sure that he may had seen it.

The article above has several misrepresentations of actual names
and places. But I can gather what is being referred too.
Substitute 'Forest' with 'State' and that would be the correct
police and mall.

My incident, that took place just over twenty years ago, was
only 5 miles from the afore mentioned areas.

Donnie Shevlin








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                      Re: 'Further Reading' Book List?

From: Tim D. Brigham <Dellamorte@mad.scientist.com>
Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2000 04:01:19 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2000 09:41:25 -0400
Subject: Re: 'Further Reading' Book List?


 >Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2000 23:07:44 -0300
 >From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
 >Subject: Re: 'Further Reading' Book List?
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

<snip>

 >When trying to get the CIA documents found by the NSA, it took 2
 >years to get a response. I filed an appeal and it was another 3
 >years before they released 4 very heavily censored documents of
 >the 14 of their own documents that the NSA had listed.

 >The wheels grind slowly...

 >Stan Friedman

Hello Stan, all,

Of the FOIA requests I've filed in the past, I have, on a couple
of occassions, finally been informed (after quite a bit of time
- 2 years for one request to the CIA in my case as well) that
the material I requested had since been made public and that
therefore the agency/office was no longer required to make it
available to me under the FOIA (ie, I had to dig it up myself
from pub domain or media, etc, no copies would be supplied from
FOIA).

What I'm wondering is, and perhaps you or someone else knows the
answer to this, if the info is made public/released during that
'lag time' _after_ I request it but before my request is acted
upon, am I not entitled to receive the info, since, had my
request been acted on appropriately in the first place, I would
have?

In other words, if my request is delayed (which it always is),
should I not be given access to any documents on the subject
released while I am waiting rather than just a 'tough luck'
response letter?

Thanks,

Tim









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                       Re: New Illinois UFO Data Page

From: Kenny Young <ufo@fuse.net>
Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2000 08:02:31 -0400
Fwd Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2000 09:43:14 -0400
Subject: Re: New Illinois UFO Data Page


 >Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2000 00:04:17 -0500
 >From: Donnie W. Shevlin <dshevlin@charter.net>
 >Subject: Re: New Illinois UFO Data Page
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >The article above has several misrepresentations of actual names
 >and places. But I can gather what is being referred too.
 >Substitute 'Forest' with 'State' and that would be the correct
 >police and mall.

Donnie:

The Cincinnati, Ohio case from October 18, 1994 was reported to
the Forest Park Police Department. The sighting was near the
Forest Fair Mall [Forest Park, Ohio suburb or Cincinnati]. The
commentary in the last E-mail was accurate but perhaps the
information subject to too much interpretation because it states
'Cincinnati resident' rather than 'Cincinnati, Ohio UFO
sighting.'

KENNY YOUNG
--
UFO Research
http://home.fuse.net/ufo/








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                      Re: 'Further Reading' Book List?

From: Steven W. Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2000 11:45:43 -0400
Fwd Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2000 12:13:07 -0400
Subject: Re: 'Further Reading' Book List?


 >Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2000 04:01:19 -0500
 >From: Tim D. Brigham <Dellamorte@mad.scientist.com>
 >Subject: Re: 'Further Reading' Book List?
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

<snip>

Just a couple of observations . . . .

 >Hello Stan, all,

 >Of the FOIA requests I've filed in the past, I have, on a couple
 >of occassions, finally been informed (after quite a bit of time
 >- 2 years for one request to the CIA in my case as well) that
 >the material I requested had since been made public and that
 >therefore the agency/office was no longer required to make it
 >available to me under the FOIA (ie, I had to dig it up myself
 >from pub domain or media, etc, no copies would be supplied from
 >FOIA).

Interesting response, and perhaps not entirely within the letter
of the law.

The question that arises is that of whether or not the document
you had requested was included in that which was allegedly
released, but let me get back to that in a minute.

All Federal agencies have been directed to make commonly
requested information available in electronic format on the
Internet, and most began that process in 1997 just after the
order was issued.  Among those to publish their FOIA released
documents on the Internet are the CIA, NSA, FBI, and the Joint
Chiefs of Staff/DIA.  The agency, with some justification, can
point requestors to the web site and advise that their released
documents have all been published.  This collection is often
dynamic, and changes as additional information is released, so
it pays to stay on top of it.  However, there is so much there,
and the organization is so sloppy, that it is difficult to find
much of anything quickly. Documents are usually presented in PDF
format, which I support, but that means the files involved are
often huge and it is impractical to download them with a slow
modem connection.  I have put together a couple of data CD-ROMs
containing the files that were posted to the FBI, NSA, and
JCS/DIA sites, and they are available through the Fund for UFO
Research for a small fee.  Details can be found at:



http://www.konsulting.com/steve/CDROM.htm

As noted, the CIA is a bit less responsive, and their site
forces one to drill through a menu system to find documents and
it doesn't lend itself to the downloading of files for review at
home.  I submitted an FOIA request and outlined my frustration
with their format and requested hard copies of all documents
that they had published, and when I agreed to pay for the cost
of making the copies, I was forwarded about 1,000 pages of
information.  Unfortunately, there is little organization and I
haven't found time to wade through them and produce a useful
CD-ROM collection. That is still in the works, but not close to
completion.

The problem that I have with the E-FOIA process is that it can
be used to delay requests for documents.  Generic responses are
now sent suggesting that the public web site be reviewed first
to see if the documents have already been released, and it
becomes the requester's responsibility to prove that it isn't
there.  In all honesty, the bureaucrats who are responding
probably don't really know if the documents are there or not, as
they probably don't retain a complete listing of what's been
published on the Internet as it changes from time to time.  It's
just easier to send those annoying requests elsewhere so they
can get on with their work.

My solution to this has been to contact my elected
representatives and advise them of my correspondence and
responses that have been generated. In my quest for the Jesse
Marcel Sr. Military Records file I was first told that they had
been destroyed in the "fire" in St Louis at the National Records
Center in the 1970s, but after asking that my representatives
for assistance the entire file suddenly arrived via special
delivery.  It took many many months, but I finally got what had
been requested.


I'll admit that I've been trained to some degree on how the
bureaucracy in Washington works, in that I've been a staffer
with the US House for some 17 years.  I've spent a good deal of
that time dealing with consitutent requests for services from
Federal (and sometimes State) agencies, which often involved
letter writing in the Congressman's name and calling
Congressional Liaisons for information and review.  It's often a
long process, but you learn that nearly everyone involved is
merely trying to get through the day and following guidelines
that they didn't create. Let's face it, for most Washington
workers this is a job, not an adventure.


 >What I'm wondering is, and perhaps you or someone else knows the
 >answer to this, if the info is made public/released during that
 >'lag time' _after_ I request it but before my request is acted
 >upon, am I not entitled to receive the info, since, had my
 >request been acted on appropriately in the first place, I would
 >have?

 >In other words, if my request is delayed (which it always is),
 >should I not be given access to any documents on the subject
 >released while I am waiting rather than just a 'tough luck'
 >response letter?

Tim, if possible, I would suggest that you bundle up your
requests and responses and fire off a request for help from one
of the elected bureaucrats here in Washington.  The last thing
that Federal agencies want is to spark the interest of those who
hold the purse strings, and I suspect you will either be pointed
directly to your requested information on line, or you will get
your requested document in the mail.  Of course, the document(s)
you seek may still be classified and remain cloaked in secrecy.

The E-FOIA system can be beneficial in getting information out
to the masses, but it also confuses access can be used to slow
our quest further.

So what else is new?

Just a few thoughts I felt should be added to mix.

Steve

PS-  The documents that Stanton recieved from the NSA were later
released with very little of the text blacked out.  As I said,
this is a dynamic process and what was released yesturday is not
necessarily the same at that which is available today.
Unfortunately, that means we have to keep making the same
requests over and over to stay current.







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   Apr > Apr 23

                      Re: 'Further Reading' Book List?

From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2000 14:45:31 -0300
Fwd Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2000 18:20:27 -0400
Subject: Re: 'Further Reading' Book List?

 >>Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2000 11:45:43 -0400
 >>From: Steven W. Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
 >>Subject: Re: 'Further Reading' Book List?
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>>Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2000 04:01:19 -0500
 >>>From: Tim D. Brigham <Dellamorte@mad.scientist.com>
 >>>Subject: Re: 'Further Reading' Book List?
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >><snip>

 >>Steve
 >>PS-  The documents that Stanton recieved from the NSA were later
 >>released with very little of the text blacked out.  As I said,
 >>this is a dynamic process and what was released yesturday is not
 >>necessarily the same at that which is available today.
 >>Unfortunately, that means we have to keep making the same
 >>requests over and over to stay current.


Some good comments above by Steve. However, I was _not_
referring to the NSA documents, but to CIA UFO documents found
by the NSA when they did their search but _not_ previously found
by the CIA when they did their court ordered search.  There were
23 from the CIA. After 2 years the CIA supplied 9 which were,
believe it or not, press abstracts of Eastern European Newspaper
articles about UFOs. They withheld their own 14. I appealed.

After 3 years they released small portions of 4. After EO 12958
went into effect which pushed the NSA into releasing in 1997 an
only 20% expurgated version of the 1980 21page affidavit
justifying the witholding of the 156 NSA UFO documents, I again
requested the CIA documents. A couple more inncouous ones were
released, but not one word was added to the original 4.

It should be noted that, though it has been claimed by Patrick
Huyghe and Phil Klass that since all 156 NSA UFO documents have
now been released by the NSA, that proves there is no coverup.
This is totally false, since the NSA has employed a new tactic.
There are only about 2 lines per UFO document that can be read.
The rest is censored with Whiteout, not black ink. Only psychics
can read what has been covered up.Less effective on TV. Yes,
Virginia there is still a coverup involving the CIA and NSA.

Stan Friedman










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   Apr > Apr 23

                   Dogs, Not 'Goat Sucker' Kill Livestock

From: Todd Lemire <tlemire@home.com>
Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2000 13:56:17 -0400
Fwd Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2000 18:40:32 -0400
Subject: Dogs, Not 'Goat Sucker' Kill Livestock


Dogs, Not 'Goat Sucker' Kill Livestock
Updated: Fri, Apr 21 08:36 AM EDT


SANTIAGO (Reuters) - Roving dogs and not a mythical,
blood-thirsty beast known locally as "chupacabra", or "goat
sucker", are responsible for the deaths of farm animals in
northern Chile, a government official said on Thursday.

"They are wandering dogs, which abound in the zone of Calama,"
said Oscar Camacho, general director of the state-run
Agriculture and Livestock Service.

Calama sits in the world's most arid desert 930 miles (1,500 km)
north of Santiago.

Local press reported that more than 200 animals had been killed,
and that some had incisions in their throats and their blood had
been sucked out. The reports said detectives swept the zone with
night vision equipment and that blood-curdling sounds were heard
in the dark, causing residents not to venture outside.

The legend of the "goat sucker", which has never been seen,
began several years ago when animals who had been killed
mysteriously were discovered in several Latin American
countries.


http://home-news.excite.com/printstory/news/r/000421/08/odd-chile


Todd Lemire
Michigan UFO CENTRAL
http://members.home.net/tlemire/UFOCENTRAL.html
--
"The reason why the flying-saucer mystery has been-to put it
mildly-so exasperating, lies in the fact that we are all blind
men, nor can we hope to meet a sighted traveler who can help us.
But perhaps it is the beginning of knowledge to recognize our
blindness."

Aime' Michel - "Flying Saucers and the Straight Line Mystery"







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               Tonight On 'Strange Days... Indeed': Bassett &

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>
Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2000 18:48:18 -0400
Fwd Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2000 18:48:18 -0400
Subject: Tonight On 'Strange Days... Indeed': Bassett &




Tonight on the program, Stephen G. Bassett on some of the
political ramifications of NASA/Cydonia and the stance of
the two candidates in the US Presidential election.

In the second hour, Martin Jasek of UFO*BC will update
listeners on the two people who had a very close encounter
with a UFO on a highway in the Yukon, earlier this month.

To listen on the Web open MediaPlayer, click 'File' and
paste the following URL into the box:

http://cfrb.com/cfrb.asx

Clicking the above URL will not conect successfully.


ebk







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                Area 51 Detailed Images Show Major Expansion

From: Blair Cummins <ufoblair@hotmail.com>
Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2000 17:02:31 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 01:53:47 -0400
Subject: Area 51 Detailed Images Show Major Expansion


Greetings list -

Source: http://www.space.com/news/area51_exclusive_00421.html

Most Detailed Images Ever of Top-Secret U.S. Air Base Show Major
Expansion

By Mary Motta
Senior Business Correspondent
posted: 06:00 am ET
23 April 2000

Detailed images of Area 51 released Sunday may not show evidence
of little green men, but they do show that the super-secret Air
Force base has grown significantly over the years.

"I want to see flying saucers as much as anyone," said
Federation of American Scientist�s John Pike, who ordered the
1-meter (3.2-foot) images, the most detailed to date, from
Thorton, Colorado-company Space Imaging. Instead, the photos --
captured over the past few months -- show that the area has
significantly expanded since the first images were snapped of
the infamous site over 30 years ago.

"It�s interesting to contemplate what is going on there. It
seems as though there is tons of money going in there and
nothing is going out," he said.

In particular, the photos show a runway that is about 3,800
meters (2.36 miles), or about 42 football fields, long. That�s
even longer than the runways for the world�s largest commercial
aircraft.

The images also show a burgeoning growth in the area, including
a complete rebuilding and expansion in size of the housing
complex for base personnel over the past 30 years. In addition,
there are new support facilities.

A geometrically-shaped munitions storage area is also
identified.

And four aircraft hangars are visible off the runway. Conspiracy
theorists have long believed that one of these hangars, dubbed
Hangar 18, is the holding area for the alien bodies and captured
alien technology taken from crash sites.

These high-resolution images, captured by Space Imaging�s IKONOS
satellite on April 2, were released less than a week after
Raleigh, North Carolina-based Aerial Images unfolded its series
of 6.6-foot (2-meter) photos of the mysteriously secretive area
over the Web, crashing the site for days.

Though the public�s ravenous appetite for these images was made
obvious this past week, Pike�s purpose for getting these photos
was different.

Pike said the request was a test to see how long it would take
to gain access to these images and how they may be used by
military agencies around the world.

"This is an interesting case study that enables us to explore in
practical rather than theoretical terms just what is this 'Brave
New World' we�ve entered into."

This so-called 3.3-foot (1-meter) resolution technology once was
available only to intelligence agencies through their own spy
satellites. But it has been estimated that by the year 2003, at
least 11 companies in five countries will have high-resolution,
remote-sensing cameras in orbit.

That sort of commercial technology in space worries government
officials because they believe such detailed imagery could
encourage industrial espionage, terrorism or more cross-border
military attacks in the developing world.

But Pike seemed unfazed by the impact of this imagery on
national security.

Because it took 2 months to get the images, he said the
technology would only be useful during peacetime for monitoring
specific regions instead of during wartime, when the military
may need to target a strategic area.

"The war may already be over before you get your picture," Pike
said.

Space Imaging�s Mark Brender argued that obtaining images
doesn�t always take so long. "We can turn stuff around in 24
hours," he said. When twin tornadoes touched down in Texas on
March 28, for example, Brender says that within a few hours they
were evaluating the images and ready to release them to the
public within 24 hours.

"We can produce images very shortly for natural disasters and
crisis," he said.

Area 51 -- 75 miles (121 kilometers) northwest of Las Vegas �
occupies about 150 square miles (390 square kilometers) of a
dried up lakebed in the Great Basin Desert, Nevada. It was named
after the grid it occupies on an old Nevada map and came into
existence in 1955 when aerospace company Lockheed Martin landed
there to test the U 2, a high-altitude surveillance plane.

The top-secret base later became a proving ground for several
generations of high-tech prototypes, including the F 117-A
Stealth fighter.

The shroud of secrecy thickened once the Air Force bought up
about 9,000 acres of land around the base to prevent the public
from getting too close. In August 1994, an Air Force official
admitted the base existed, saying the Air Force has "facilities
within the complex near the dry lakebed of Groomn Lake - used
for testing, training technologies, operations and systems
critical to the effectiveness of U.S. military forces."

Ufologists have long believed that unidentified flying objects
from other planets are entrenched in underground bases in the
region and insist alien autopsies are being conducted there.
But, conventional wisdom says the base is likely a center for
super-secret operations dealing with sophisticated military
aircraft.

Did Pike ever believe that his request would produce evidence of
the existence of aliens?

"No! I think all that [extraterrestrial] stuff is being done out
of that CIA facility in Ohio," he said laughing.

---

Best regards,

- Blair Cummins
ufoblair@hotmail.com








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   Apr > Apr 24

                      Re: 'Further Reading' Book List?

From: Steven W. Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2000 21:47:42 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 01:58:44 -0400
Subject: Re: 'Further Reading' Book List?


 >Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2000 14:45:31 -0300
 >From: Stan Friedman <fsphys@brunnet.net>
 >Subject: Re: 'Further Reading' Book List?
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >>>Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2000 11:45:43 -0400
 >>>From: Steven W. Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
 >>>Subject: Re: 'Further Reading' Book List?
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>>>Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2000 04:01:19 -0500
 >>>>From: Tim D. Brigham <Dellamorte@mad.scientist.com>
 >>>>Subject: Re: 'Further Reading' Book List?
 >>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>><snip>

 >>>Steve

 >>>PS- The documents that Stanton recieved from the NSA were later
 >>>released with very little of the text blacked out. As I said,
 >>>this is a dynamic process and what was released yesturday is not
 >>>necessarily the same at that which is available today.
 >>>Unfortunately, that means we have to keep making the same
 >>>requests over and over to stay current.

 >Some good comments above by Steve. However, I was _not_
 >referring to the NSA documents, but to CIA UFO documents found
 >by the NSA when they did their search but _not_ previously found
 >by the CIA when they did their court ordered search. There were
 >23 from the CIA. After 2 years the CIA supplied 9 which were,
 >believe it or not, press abstracts of Eastern European Newspaper
 >articles about UFOs. They withheld their own 14. I appealed.

<snip>

Stan-

My mistake, sorry.

I agree wholeheartedly with Stan's belief that there is still
much more to be released on the subject by the CIA, NSA, US Air
Force and others in regard to UFOs. The fact that thousands of
pages of material has been released does not address the fact
that there are likely many times that many still being held back
for one reason or another.

It should be noted that the FOIA process (which is related
directly to the E-FOA process) is a long and difficult one for
those on both sides of the issue. I have an outstanding request
at Wright-Patterson for material that was scheduled for release
two years ago. The request is for a broad range of dates, and
because I haven't narrowed that down the declassificaiton review
could still take a while to complete.

Steve







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   Apr > Apr 24

                Re: Arnold's Sighting And Ufology's First Law

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2000 23:30:25 -0400
Fwd Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 02:02:12 -0400
Subject: Re: Arnold's Sighting And Ufology's First Law


 >Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2000 02:52:37 +0100
 >From: James Easton <voyager@ukonline.co.uk>
 >Subject: Re: Arnold's Sighting And Ufology's First Law
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>


 >Regarding:

 >>Date: Sat, 08 Apr 2000 18:24:54 -0400
 >>From: Jan Aldrich <jan@cyberzone.net>
 >>Subject: Arnold's Sighting And Ufology's First Law
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >Jan wrote:

 >>Here is posting from some weeks ago on Project 1947 list. I
 >>think it applies pretty well to Kottmeyer and Easton.

<snip>

 >So, was he, for some reason, heading slightly south of east
 >towards Yakima and had been for 2-3 minutes, or was he heading
 >north-east from Mineral towards Mt. Rainier, continuing his
 >search?>

 >It does make a significant difference to the scenario.

It does not make a difference in testing the bird hypothesis.

Draw a map... draw several maps....

Prove Arnold could see the birds in a direction to the north of
Mt. Rainier, see them head southward across his initial flight
path whether toward Rainier or toward Yakima... or toward Goat
Ridge... and lastly see them disappear in th direction of Mt.
Adams.

And prove birds could be detected by their bright flashes at a
distance greater than the birds's bodies could be seen under the
lighting conditions of Arnold's sighting (no shallow angle
forward gloss off bird feathers, please).

Ufology's first law: try to explain, but when you run into major
contradictions... give it up!






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                              Re: Real X-Files

From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2000 23:37:48 -0400 (EDT)
Fwd Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 02:11:10 -0400
Subject: Re: Real X-Files


 >Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2000 00:21:11 -0400
 >From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >Subject: Real X-Files
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >To Be Published May 1:
 >The UFO-FBI Connection
 >by Bruce Maccabee

 >Available soon on Amazon.com (see picture of cover on their web
 >site) and in local bookstores.

 >There were sightings filed under 'Security Matter - X'


Congratulations Bruce...looking forward to seeing it.

Cheers,

Robert






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             International UFO And New-Age Symposium - Istanbul

From: Philip Mantle <pmquest@dial.pipex.com>
Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 11:53:28 +0000
Fwd Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 12:29:36 -0400
Subject: International UFO And New-Age Symposium - Istanbul


Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 13:09:30 +0300
From: UFOTR <Ufotr@netone.com.tr>
Subject: INTERNATIONAL UFO and NEW-AGE SYMPOSIUM in Istanbul
To: Philip Mantle <pmquest@dial.pipex.com>

The Second Annual International 'UFO And New Age' Symposium Of
Eastern-Europe, Balkans And Middle-East


We at 'Sirius UFO Space Sciences Research Center' would like to
inform you of the 'Second International UFO and New Age
Symposium of Eastern Europe, Balkans and Middle East' which will
take place on the 23rd, 24th and 25th of June 2000 in Istanbul,
Turkey.

This follows the First International UFO Symposium which was of
a tremendous success and was met by huge public interest which
still continues. It took place on the 20th and 21st of February
1999 in Istanbul and was attended by over 5200 people from
Turkey and from various neighbouring countries. It also
attracted mass media coverage of over 185 journalists and
reporters from different countries.

The speakers at the First UFO Symposium were; Erich von Daniken,
Stanton T. Friedman, Budd Hopkins, Micheal Lindemann, Dr. Bruce
Maccabee, Prof. John E. Mack, Prof. Brian O�Leary, Marina Popovich,
Travis Walton and George Wingfield.

The Second Symposium which will take place over 3 days is going
to be even larger than the First Symposium. It will be held at
the biggest and most sophisticated Conference Center in Turkey
which has an audience capacity of over 3000 people per day, so
it will host 10 thousand people in 3 days...

Each lecturer will have 90 minutes to speak. The Conference
Center has a giant screen of 13 meters wide on stage and all the
technical aids required will be provided. There will be
simultaneous translation for the audience via headphones.

Here are This Year�s Speakers:
Prof. John E. Mack,
Stanton T. Friedman,
Nick Pope,
Derrel Sims,
Wendelle Stevens,
Donald Ware
Robert O. Dean,
Budd Hopkins,
Sean David Morton,
K.T. Frankovich,
Kelly Cahill,
Marcia Schafer
Sheldan Nidle
Lyssa Royal


Best regards,

Haktan Akdogan
Founder and Chairman
Sirius UFO Space Sciences Research Center

For more information please contact us at:
Tel : 90 216 369 92 48 or 369 92 52
Fax: 90 216 369 92 52
E-mail: ufotr@netone.com.tr









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   Apr > Apr 24

                Re: Arnold's Sighting And Ufology's First Law

From: Roy J Hale <royjhale@netscapeonline.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 03:02:55 +0100
Fwd Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 12:31:40 -0400
Subject: Re: Arnold's Sighting And Ufology's First Law


 >Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2000 23:30:25 -0400
 >From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >Subject: Re: Arnold's Sighting And Ufology's First Law
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >It does not make a difference in testing the bird hypothesis.

 >Draw a map... draw several maps....

 >Prove Arnold could see the birds in a direction to the north of
 >Mt. Rainier, see them head southward across his initial flight
 >path whether toward Rainier or toward Yakima... or toward Goat
 >Ridge... and lastly see them disappear in th direction of Mt.
 >Adams.

 >And prove birds could be detected by their bright flashes at a
 >distance greater than the birds's bodies could be seen under the
 >lighting conditions of Arnold's sighting (no shallow angle
 >forward gloss off bird feathers, please).

 >Ufology's first law: try to explain, but when you run into major
 >contradictions... give it up!


Hi Bruce & All,

I am glad this has just been said, this Pelican thread is dead I
wonder how many other descriptions James can come up with! Oh no
please!


Roy,

Flying away into the sun on a metallic Pelicans back..

http://members.netscapeonline.co.uk/royjhale/Pelican.htm








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   Apr > Apr 24

                 Re: Dogs, Not 'Goat Sucker' Kill Livestock

From: Dr. Virgilio Sanchez-Ocejo <ufomiami@prodigy.net>
Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 11:29:42 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 12:40:57 -0400
Subject: Re: Dogs, Not 'Goat Sucker' Kill Livestock


 >Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2000 13:56:17 -0400
 >From: Todd Lemire <tlemire@home.com>
 >Subject: Dogs, Not 'Goat Sucker' Kill Livestock
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >Dogs, Not 'Goat Sucker' Kill Livestock
 >Updated: Fri, Apr 21 08:36 AM EDT

 >SANTIAGO (Reuters) - Roving dogs and not a mythical,
 >blood-thirsty beast known locally as "chupacabra", or "goat
 >sucker", are responsible for the deaths of farm animals in
 >northern Chile, a government official said on Thursday.

 >"They are wandering dogs, which abound in the zone of Calama,"
 >said Oscar Camacho, general director of the state-run
 >Agriculture and Livestock Service.

<snip>

Abstract from: 'La Tercera' newspaper
Saturday, April 22

by Alejandro Ahumada

Expert Finds That Footprints Do Not Match Any Animals Known In
This Area

Investigator Victor Espinosa, of Ecology Department, assisted by
local police found that the footprints do not match any animal
known in this region. He is making plaster molds of the
footprints and taking some hair samples for later lLab analysis.
"The paw prints do not match those of horses, cows, goats,
pigs, felines or wild dogs". "After the lab examination we will
be able to know what kind of animal it is" said Espinoza.

Espinosa points out that the animal walks on two legs and only
attacks hot-blooded animals and not snakes or lizards of the
region. Also, he points out the lack of fecal or urine close to
the attacks.

Witnesses described the "animal" to be one meter (3.5 feet)
tall, covered in hair, yellow eyes and walking on two legs

NOTE: We also received other reports: Police and local
ufologists received reports of strange red lights (UFOs) in the
region. Anti-narcotic police went to investigate the area
looking for a clandestine trafficker airport, but to their
surprise, found a perfect triangular mark. Locals said they
never had seen that mark before the 'Chupacabra' attacks.

Photos of the Chile footprints look to match the ones we took
here in Miami during the 'Chupacabra' attacks in 1996.


Dr. Virgilio Sanchez-Ocejo
Miami UFO Center
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Corridor/1341/index.html








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               FOX UFO Special Thursday 04-27 - 21:00 Eastern

From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@rocler.qc.ca>
Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 12:00:07 -0700
Fwd Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 12:43:04 -0400
Subject: FOX UFO Special Thursday 04-27 - 21:00 Eastern


Hello List,

FOX special on UFOs coming this Thursday (April 27th):

UFOs: Best Evidence Caught on Tape

In Eastern Canada, it airs at 9:00 PM.

Please do not shoot the messenger ;)

Serge Salvaille







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   Apr > Apr 25

              CPR-Canada News: 'Fields of Dreams' - May 8, 2000

From: Paul Anderson <psa@direct.ca>
Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 21:24:45 -0700
Fwd Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 08:22:04 -0400
Subject: CPR-Canada News: 'Fields of Dreams' - May 8, 2000



CPR-CANADA NEWS
The E-News Service of Circles Phenomenon Research Canada

http://www.geocities.com/cpr-canada

April 24, 2000

_____________________________


Note: The 'Fields of Dreams' crop circle lectures by CPR-Canada
are a joint presentation of CPR-Canada and The Millennium
Project, and part of The Millennium Forum, a public education
project of TMP. Notices of upcoming lectures are therefore
included in the e-mail updates for both organizations
(CPR-Canada News and TMP News); those subscribers who are on
both lists will receive these notices twice - apologies for the
duplication.

_____________________________


THE MILLENNIUM FORUM


FIELDS OF DREAMS 2000
http://www.geocities.com/cpr-canada/fields5-8-00.html

Presented by Circles Phenomenon Research Canada and The
Millennium Project


A Visual Presentation on the Continuing Crop Circle Enigma

by
Paul Anderson
Director, Circles Phenomenon Research Canada
Founder, The Millennium Project


- Latest 2000 Updates
- Reports On The 1999 Canadian And International Crop Circles
- The Scientific Evidence


Monday, May 8, 2000
7:30 - 9:30 PM
Aberthau Historical Mansion,
West Point Grey Community Centre
4397 West 2nd Avenue, Vancouver, BC


ADMISSION

FREE

Call 604.257.8140 to Pre-Register
(please book ahead as seating is limited)


FURTHER INFORMATION

CPR-Canada / TMP
604.731.8522
psa@direct.ca

Aberthau Historical Mansion,
West Point Grey Community Centre
604.257.8140


Complete listings for Fields of Dreams lectures:

http://www.geocities.com/cpr-canada/fields.html


_____________________________


See also the CPR-Canada web site for complete listings of news
stories, reports and related information and links:

http://www.geocities.com/cpr-canada

_____________________________


CPR-Canada News is the electronic news service of Circles
Phenomenon Research Canada (affiliate of Circles Phenomenon
Research International), providing periodic updates with the
latest news and reports, as well as information on CPR-Canada
-related news and events. CPR-Canada News is edited by Paul
Anderson and published by CPR-Canada, and is available free
by subscription; to be added to or removed from the mailing list,
send your request, including "subscribe CPR-Canada News" or
"unsubscribe CPR-Canada News" and e-mail address to:

psa@direct.ca

For further information, submissions or inquiries, forward all
correspondence to:

CIRCLES PHENOMENON RESEARCH CANADA
Circles Phenomenon Research International

Main Office

Suite 202 - 2086 West 2nd Avenue
Vancouver, BC  V6J 1J4  Canada
Tel / Fax (Office): 604.731.8522
Tel (Cell): 604.727.1454
E-Mail: psa@direct.ca
Web: http://www.geocities.com/cpr-canada

REPORTING HOTLINE: 604.731.8522

_____________________________


� Circles Phenomenon Research Canada, 2000







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                 Chilean UFO Leaves A Giant Triangular Mark

From: Dr. Virgilio Sanchez-Ocejo <ufomiami@prodigy.net>
Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 15:04:50 -0500
Fwd Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 12:28:44 -0400
Subject: Chilean UFO Leaves A Giant Triangular Mark


Source: http://www.elsur.cl/index2.html

'Cronica' Newspaper, Chile

Monday 24, 2000.

UFO Makes a Giant Triangle in the Region

Jose Ignacio Prieto and 4 friends where happily having dinner
when they felt some heat. Suddenly, the lights went off. They
were in complete darkness, when a strong blue light came through
the dining room's windows for a few seconds, leaving them
temporarily blinded. After that the lights came back on.

The next day they found a triangular mark in the ground with a
base of 35 meters with each side some 20 meters. In one of the
angles there is a tower that carries high voltage electricity in
the region.

The triangle is on a small hill of 30 degree inclination. The
plants inside the triangle were bent at the base, like the
mysterious crop circles. The spot can be reached only by
horse, there are no vehicles or roads close to this area.

The police from Tucapel went yesterday and verified the mark.
'Cronica' went on to inform of UFOs sighting in this region.

In San Pedro de Atacama, police received reports of strange red
lights (UFOs). Anti-narcotic police went to investigate the area
looking for a clandestine trafficker airstrip, but to their
surprise, found a perfect triangular mark. This triangle has a
50 meters base, and is formed by small rocks, no bigger than 10
centimeters. The rocks forming the triangle appear to be burned.
"They were hot to touch." police reported.



NOTE: Chile is experiencing a rash of 'Chupacabra' attacks.
More than 200 animals; chickens, ducks, doves, dogs, cats,
goats, pigs and even cows were attacked in the past weeks by
unidentified blood sucking predators.

(Sorry about the rush translation)

Dr. Virgilio Sanchez-Ocejo Miami UFO Center
http://www.angelfire.com/fl/ufomiami/index.html
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Corridor/1341/index.html








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                          Filer's Files #16 -- 2000

From: George A. Filer <Majorstar@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 20:47:13 -0400 (EDT)
Fwd Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 12:34:48 -0400
Subject: Filer's Files #16 -- 2000


Filer's Files #16 -- 2000,  MUFON Skywatch Investigations
George A. Filer,  Director, Mutual UFO Network Eastern
April 25, 2000, Majorstar@aol.com  (609) 654-0020
Web Site at www.filersfiles.com. - Chuck Warren Webmaster.

RONALD REAGAN said, while governor of California, "I was in a
plane last week when I looked out the window and saw this white
light.  It was zigzagging around."  "I went up to the pilot and
said, "Have you ever seen anything like that?" He was shocked
and he said, "Nope." And I said to him: "Let's follow it!" "We
followed it for several minutes. It was a bright white light."
"We followed it to Bakersfield, and all of a sudden to our
utter amazement it went straight up into the heavens."  "When I
got off the plane I told Nancy all about it, but we didn't file
a report on the object because for a long time they considered
you a nut if you saw a UFO..."  Ronald Reagan, 1974

NEW YORK SIGHTING BY LAW ENFORCEMENT BAYSHORE,

LONG ISLAND - On April 17, 2000, two witnesses observed an oval
shaped craft for about six minutes.  M. A. Medina who is in law
enforcement while driving along the train tracks about 10:00 PM
noticed the UFO.  We followed it and I turned down the music
and opened the window.  There was now sound.  We pointed at it
and tried to follow.  By the time we got to its location, it
had gone.  The object was oval shaped with four lights.  It was
hovering and turning in circles.  Thanks to M. A. Medina
proserver1015@interland.net  and www.nymufon.org.

POSSIBLE ANIMAL MUTILATION IN MARYLAND?

SUSQUEHANNA -- This is Jen.  I am getting ready to move to
Texas but I ran into something very unusual at the Susquehanna
State Park.  I was driving with a friend though the park.  We
came across a deer by the roadside.  Usually I' don't pay much
attention to road kills, but this one caught my eye.  The
rectum looked identical to pictures I've seen of cattle
mutilations.  We stopped for a closer look.  The deer was a
full grown white tail doe.  There appeared to be an incision
line around the rectum to the udders and flesh taken out of the
inner part of the incision to the depth of 3 inches. The line
was very precisely made.  No jagged edges or tooth marks.  On
her back were 4 markings, rectangle shaped 1X2 inches.  These
were on the spine and  looked like the donor site of a skin
graft.  When we checked the site we didn't see any indication
of an accident.  No parts of an auto or skid marks.  We took
photos, but were unable to get samples.  We did return in 24
hours to see if any thing had changed.  No scavengers has
touched the carcass.  Very unusual considering there is a large
vulture population around here. Thanks to Jen Runningpony.

WEST VIRGINIA SIGHTING

This sighting is from a young man named Tim whose UFO encounter
was very unsettling to him.  It was a warm summer night, in
West Virginia, where I was vacationing with my family.  A few
of us were outside gazing at the splendor of a night, which had
escaped the pollution of city light's.  At first we thought we
were seeing a plane, yet it could not be one since it was
moving at least twice the speed of a conventional jet.  I
pointed it out to the others, and we all agreed that it was not
an airplane.  It seemed like a bright star that was moving
similar to a comet but slower.  It darted across the starlit
sky and disappeared quickly.  It had been visible for around
two minutes.  We saw a second UFO move across the sky again
disappearing just as quickly.  Hence, my only encounter of what
I believed to be a UFO.  Thanks to Bill Bean and Tim
DMX11359@aol.com  and bllin@erols.com.

GEORGIA

CARROLLTON -- A 33-year-old professional educator from Georgia
contacted ASD Mark Ausmus concerning a sighting on March 13,
2000, She was parked in traffic at a lengthy stoplight in
Carrollton in West Central Georgia.  In the distance she
noticed a large object approach, flying along the power lines
at about 6:30 PM.  As it got closer, it appeared to be
elliptical in shape with three yellow-white lights on the
structure.  The leading edge was the long edge, and the object
was about the length of a school bus.  The witness stuck her
head out of the car window, but could hear no sound.  The craft
was traveling about 10-15 mph at about 30 feet high.  She
looked up at the bottom as it passed right over her car. The
bottom looked like it was composed of 'moving ripples'.  At
that time, the stop light changed and the traffic started
moving, so she had to drive off.  She then turned her vehicle
around in an effort to relocate the object, but it was gone.
No EM or human effects were noticed.  Mark Ausmus will be
investigating this event in the coming weeks.  Best, Aye!  Tom
Sheets, FSA Scot - State Director MUFON GA.  Tom notes that
ISUR received a similar report a few days ago from a former
Deputy Sheriff now a Security Officer at a chemical plant in
Indianapolis.  He reported that on March 14, 2000, (the day
after the Carrollton event) he encountered a nighttime glowing
object hovering and then moving just above the power lines of
the plant, also silently passing right over his vehicle about
50 feet up.  His description indicated a 'grain of rice' shaped
object, rounded at both ends, also moving rather slowly.  (See
Filer's Files #15.)

FLORIDA UFO SIGHTED BY TWO SEPARATE WITNESSES

SARASOTA - Television host Malcolm Hathorn reports that on
March 15, 2000, his first caller, John, started out by saying
that he was a skeptic about UFOs, but he went on to describe a
very interesting UFO sighting he had about a year or so earlier
while driving on a road very close to I-75 near Sarasota,
Florida. It was late at night and John and his wife noticed a
hovering object about a mile ahead.  As they approached the
object they realized it was very unusual.  It was approximately
100 feet in length with three small lights underneath it.  The
object was dark-colored and its shape could not be discerned.
It was only a 100 feet above the ground.  As John and his wife
got closer they realized the object was moving very slowly and
that it made absolutely no sound.  A truck had been ahead of
them on the road and the driver screeched on his brakes and
came to a stop.  The truck driver got out of his vehicle and
stood on the hood of his truck and looked up at the now
hovering object.  John and his wife kept driving, but very
slowly.  Later, John admitted that they had about one hour of
missing time associated with the experience.  He said he had
rarely ever spoken about the incident to anyone.  Later in my
TV show another caller, Abraham, stated that he had seen the
same object around the same time of year as the first caller,
and he described it the same way.  He had been driving on I-75
near Sarasota and came upon the slow-moving craft.  He slowed
his car to about 30 mph while in the passing lane and was
holding up traffic as he looked up at the UFO.  Apparently most
of the other cars didn't see it.  The was cigar shaped and
about 75 feet long.  He said the three lights on the bottom of
the craft were bright white lights.  He had no missing time
associated with the event, as far as he knew.  This second
caller said he had been reluctant to call but felt he had to
because it was important to verify the other man's sighting.
Thanks to Malcolm Hathorn, and Lorraine Gerber director MUFON's
Tampa Baywatch Newsletter for April.

ILLINOIS SIGHTING

CASEYVILLE -- On April 21, WBBM Radio an all news station in
Chicago reported hourly that police in the East St. Louis area
had reported UFOs.  Police received six reports from callers
between 3:30 and 4:30 AM, reporting a strange light in the sky
within a radius of a couple of miles of Caseyville stated Sgt.
J.D. Roth.  The first report came from a woman who said she saw
unusual lights in the horseradish field west of Illinois 157
behind St. Stephens Catholic Church.  Roth and officer Steve
Epps left the station and searched the field but found nothing.
Just then, dispatchers told Roth that a St. Clair county
sheriffs department deputy on Interstate 255 reported seeing
lights in a field over Caseyville about a mile north of the
original sighting.  While the law enforcement officers traveled
toward the field, they heard radio traffic indicating
Collinsville Police had gotten a call about a strange light
accompanied by a loud humming in the area of Fairmont Park Race
Track which is less than a mile from the Cahokia Mounds
Complex."  We met up there with other officers, discussed the
reports.  A 911 call from a woman said there was such a bright
light in the air it impaired her ability to drive." Roth said.
While the officers were in route, another call came in
reporting a light moving up and down near Illinois 157 and 161.
Roth said the calls seemed to be from different individuals."
There was no reports of structured craft but only lights that
might have been associated with a storm that earlier pelted the
area with rain, high winds and lightning.  There is some
speculation that these were not UFOs, but plasma or ball
lightning sightings.  This was unlike the January 5, sightings
where many policeman described a flying triangle in Highland,
Lebanon, Millstadt and Dupo.  The best UFO sightings occur in
good weather and good visibility.  ``Sightings usually go in
waves,'' said Forest Crawford of Collinsville, assistant
director of Illinois MUFON. ``It's actually very common to have
a number of sightings in an area over a short period of time.
Officials at Scott Air Force Base in Illinois according to KTVI
Channel 2 newscast from April 21, were provided with the police
UFO sightings reports.  When I worked in intelligence at
Military Airlift Command Headquarters at Scott my boss Bob
Woods got those reports.

DO PLASMAS GENERATE SOME UFO REPORTS?

One kind of Unidentified Flying Object that may be a natural
phenomenon are the plasma lights or ionized clouds.  They are
being filmed in close proximity to thunderstorms and tornado's
fairly regularly.  About 10 percent of the reports, I receive
regard strange large moving lights in the sky or fast moving
internally lit bright clouds.  At night only the light and not
the cloud may be observed.  Most valid UFO reports occur in
clear or non-stormy weather conditions.  However, there are a
group of reports that may involve naturally occurring plasmas.
Generally, the plasmas are fairly short lived, but some types
seem to last for a surprisingly long time.  The exact energy
source of the naturally occurring plasmas is still unknown but
are probably similar to standard lightning.  Some plasmas are
reported over high power lines and near strong electrical
activity such as highways.  They seem to be related to ball
lightning, and under the right conditions with a mix of dust or
ice particles they can create a very impressive display.  They
may operate similar to a giant glowing fluorescent light.
There has also been speculation that the propulsion systems of
the UFOs cause ionization around the craft giving it a plasma
or cloud like appearance.  Probably all my readers have seen
thunderclouds light up with lightning, but under certain
conditions the clouds remain lit for a relatively long time.
Once the electrons are lighted some clouds seem to maintain a
kind of natural glow like a light bulb for many minutes.  These
clouds seem to be acted upon by electron radiant energy such as
ultraviolet, X-rays, or infrared rays.  An exotic form of
electron energy similar to ball lightning may be working inside
the clouds.

It is apparent from space the thunderstorms have tremendous
power.  Areas lit by thunderstorms are often larger and
brighter than the lights of a big city. The lightning seems to
explode in all directions.  Some goes towards the ground but
most does not.  Ball lighting or plasmas as large as a bus or
even mile wide thunderclouds have been observed.  The light is
often described as brilliant, yellow green, transparent ball
with a fuzzy outline.  Fluorine gas produces a similar greenish
yellow color often reported.  The plasmas often appear near
towering cumulus thunderclouds inferring they be part of the
creation process.  I have been observing films provided me by
Jeff Challender taken from the space shuttle showing UFOs or
plasma type clouds.  These objects are generally oval and can
move at thousands of miles per hour for hundreds of miles.
Despite their high speeds they will suddenly stop over a line
of thunderstorms.  Some of the plasmas/UFOs appear as if they
might be developed within the thunderstorms or at least have a
tremendous affinity with them.  While in the Air Force, I flew
through the thunderstorms of a hurricane off the coast of
Puerto Rico when ball lighting came through the cockpit window
floated on through the cockpit door and down the aisle.  It was
a blue and red ball of fuzzy electric flame about the size of
large beach ball and that floated through the aircraft and out
the rear.  It did not seem hot and it did not hurt anyone.
Perhaps when conditions are just right, these plasma balls
develop and are shot out of the thunderstorm like a cannon.
These lighted objects will move along quickly and can
accomplish amazing maneuvers.  They may have a natural affinity
to recharge themselves near the thunderstorms.  They seem to
recharge, and gather strength from the lightning and then move
on.

The NASA Space Science News for January 4, 2000, reports a
surprising pattern emerges from satellite observations of
lightning.  Storms over the Great Plains States have
significantly more lightning that never reaches the ground, an
indicator of violent activity that can spawn hail and
tornadoes.  Where there's lightning, many people worry that
tornadoes may follow.  Lightning is associated with energetic
storms since it takes large upward movements of air -- plus
water in various forms including raindrops and ice crystals --
to produce a large electric potential.  Cloud to cloud
lightning may occur on a ratio as high as 10 to 1 to every
cloud--to--ground lightning strike.  NASA's Dennis Boccippio,
states, " When the potential becomes great enough, electricity
punches its way through air that normally insulates and builds
a narrow bridge of electrified gas or plasma.  The current
burrows its way in search of an oppositely charged region where
the imbalance can be relieved.  When the two are joined,
current flows freely and ionizes even more air on its path,
thus creating the glowing hydra that we see as a lightning
bolt.  The heated air expands and, when the discharge is
suddenly stopped, it slams back together to produce the
thunderclap."  The latest find is that storms with far more
cloud--to--cloud lightning than cloud--to--ground are more
energetic and are more likely to produce violent storms.  "The
really interesting area is the Great Plains region where the
ratio goes as high as 10 to 1," said Dr. Dennis Boccippi.  He
has combined four years of satellite and ground-based data to
estimate the ratio of intercloud and cloud--to--ground
lightning.  The space segment of Boccippio's data came from two
similar instruments developed by the GHCC and NASA/Marshall.
http://spacescience.com/headlines/y2000/essd04jan_1.htm

The correlation between these ionized clouds or plasmas and
UFOs needs to be examined.  Observers may be seeing a natural
phenomenon or the UFOs could be recharging their propulsion
systems with the tremendous energy available in the storms.
Although, similar to thunderstorms these clouds appear more
stable in shape and have a more oval or rounded disc
appearance.  An observer not expecting to see a well-rounded
cloud with colored lighting could easily identify it has a UFO.
The tremendous amount of energy developed by a thunderstorm can
be observed after viewing the wrath of a tornado or lightning,
but there may other equally powerful thunderbolts moving away
at high speed not as easily noticed.  Reports indicate people
are observing ionization or electrically charged gas under the
influence of radiation.  The question of course is this a
natural phenomenon or a secret of the UFO propulsion systems?
The former is more likely.

MISSOURI A UFO AND REPTOID SEEN

BALLWIN -- On Saturday, April 15, 2000, sometime between 1:00
and 2:00 AM, Alan S. was asleep at his home.  He stated, " I
woke up and looked to my right.  It was standing near my bed.
It disappeared after about two minutes."  Alan reported, "It
was a very strange creature.  It was lime green, glowing, and
it looked like it had a light lime green aura around the body.
It had two arms and two legs.  His eyes were bright glowing
red.  His skin looked scaly, like a reptile.  It was maybe four
feet (1.3 meters) tall."  Alan remained motionless in bed until
the entity vanished.  Ballwin is on Missouri is 30 miles west
of St. Louis.  A UFO sighting elsewhere in Missouri was
reported that night and was not known to the Alan.

HOLDEN -- At 9:06 PM on Friday, April 14, 2000, about four
hours earlier than the Ballwin encounter, Jesse Carlson was
outdoors just east of Independence, when he spotted an unusual
light in the sky.  The UFO approached from the north and headed
southwest.  He described it as "a bright light in a square
shape with real end curves.  It was sort of white with yellow
on the outside of it."  He added that it moved in "a kind of
falling" motion, adding, "I had no idea of the height, but it
was going along about twenty miles per hour. Holden is located
about 180 miles west-northwest of Ballwin.   Thanks to UFO
ROUNDUP   Volume 5, Number 16   April 20, 2000   Editor: Joseph
Trainor at http://ufoinfo.com/roundup/

AREA 51 SATELLITE PHOTOGRAPHS OF AREA 51 RELEASED

GROOM DRY LAKE AIR FORCE BASE -- The secret US air base in
Nevada seventy miles north of Las Vegas has been over flown by
Russian satellites on a regular basis.  Aerial Images Inc.
posted five images of the site taken by a Russian satellite
launched in 1998 to map Earth's surface.  An open-skies
agreement was signed in 1992 by 24 nations, including the
United States and Russia.  The photos show runways and
buildings at Groom Dry Lake Air Force Base.  The base has been
the testing ground for a host of top-secret aircraft, including
the U-2, SR-71, B-2, and more recent advanced aircraft.  Saucer
shaped craft have often been seen flying over the area.  The
base's airspace is restricted and civilian aircraft are not
allowed to fly over.  Air Force spokesman deny that aliens are
at the base. Gloria Cales said, "We acknowledge having an
operating site there, and the work is classified, the work
involves "operations critical to the US military and the
country's security.

FRENCH DEFENSE MINISTRY RELEASES UFO RADAR CASES

Perry Petrakis  of SOS OVNI a private French UFO research group
has or obtained a file on military radar detection directly
from the French Ministry of Defense for the first time ever.
The French newsstand journal Phenomena # 43 dedicated to the
scientific study of UFOs features the investigation of UFO
radar cases by the French military.  In August 1998, a civilian
living near Metz saw a spherical object that beamed down a
light as it flew over his head.  The witness filed a
testimonial report with the French Military Gendarmerie Corps.
In January 1999, the SOS OVNI asked the authorities for a copy
of a military radar detection report from the Drachenbronn
Control Center in the East of France.  The Center claimed," We
researched our archives to no avail."  In July 99, SOS OVNI
received a copy of the Gendarmerie report that included a
statement that military radar had detected the object.  SOS
OVNI again wrote the Control Center, but never received a
reply.  In September 99, SOS OVNI investigators filed a
procedure with the Commission d'Acces aux Documents
Administrates.  They ruled that the files should be released
under the French Freedom of Information Act.  In October 99,
the French Defense Ministry sent confirmation of military radar
detection of the UFOs.  The Radar Control Center in
Drachenbronn report stated, "We detected track ME 403 for three
minutes, with no information about height."  It was also
discovered that the French official investigative body SEPRA,
headed by Jean-Jacques Velasco, filed the case without any
research.  More information can be obtained about this issue of
Phenomena by contacting Perry Petrakis at (33) 442.12.30.59.
E-mail: <sosovni@pacwan.fr Thanks to Perry Petrakis.

Editor's Note: In the US both FAA and military radar's have
tracked UFOs.  I personally tracked one on airborne radar over
England.  Government agencies are instructed to deny they are
tracking a UFO to anyone including airborne civilian and
military pilots.  Radar controllers are told to attempt to
divert air traffic away from the UFO.

Last summer, the French COMETA UFO REPORT "UFOs and Defense:
What Should We Prepare For?" three years in the making, was
released showing that high-ranking French generals were
seriously worried about the threat of UFOs to their country.
It was written by the French Association, COMETA or "Committee
for In-depth Studies.  The study was initiated by four-star
General Bernard Norlain, former Commander of the French
Tactical Air Force and Military Counselor to the Prime
Minister.  COMETA" is composed of concerned French generals,
admirals, engineers, doctors, physicists, and other
high-ranking officials including the Chief of National Police,
and the Research Director of the French equivalent of NASA, The
report claims UFOs are real, they are a threat, and mankind
must consider methods to defend itself.  Our own military cries
for money and yet ignores the possible threat!  It details the
results of a high-level study of UFOs by the French Institute
of Higher Studies for National Defense (IHDEN). The 90-page
report has been sent to French President Jacques Chirac and his
Prime Minister, Lionel Jospin.  Only recently translated into
English, it is expected to soon be widely available in the
United States.  Its conclusions are startling and it makes it
very clear the French believe we are not alone.

JUDITH AN ABDUCTEE WRITES:

I was abducted from the time I was a child.  I used to have a
small scoop mark in the back of my leg, but that is now
slightly faded.  I know things about aliens and their craft,
but I don't know how I know.  Sometimes, I wonder, why me.  And
others make things up that I know is far fetched. Spaceships
move at 20,000 mph.  Perhaps, faster now.  I believe I was in a
UFO (the first time) when I was 8 years old, which seems to be
my best recollection of the ship.  I recall aliens sitting at
computer monitors, but the print was orange.  I remember seeing
tops of trees (I think I was being brought up to a spaceship).
Then traveling very slowly over and along the street --
watching telephone poles pass on the screen.  And they knew who
lived in every house.  I think I have been contacted many, many
times.  They have a sense of humor (at least some of them).  I
am very aware of having seen a "gray" while I was awake.  First
standing beside my bed staring at me, and then walking away
from me.  There was a group in my living room (I heard them
when I woke up), but when I sat on the edge of my bed I was
told (by telepathy) not to come to the room where they were.  I
don't remember the exact words, but I knew they meant business.
They had come to talk to the invisible one who had stayed with
me.  At first I thought I had flipped my lid, but when I pushed
for proof that "he" was there, I got proof!!!!  The night they
came for him, I remember them saying emphatically, "No, your
time is up.  You must return."  I am always wary of their
arrival and know when they'll show up.  Perhaps my ears ring.
But once they are there, I am not frightened.  I think it's
being "startled" by their arrival that frightens me.  That's
when they have a sense of humor.  I might be looking in the
freezer for something, close the door and one is standing
there.  Or pulling a shirt over my head, and one is there.
Almost enjoying my fright, yet not wanting to frighten me.  A
few times I've voiced my displeasure and they back off, but
they are clearly NOT afraid of me.

I never wash my hair or take a shower when I'm alone in the
house.  I recall moving the shower curtain aside and one or two
were standing there.  I now have crystal clear shower
curtains!!! They seem to come about 2:30 in the morning.  If I
awake at that time, I will not get up and walk around the
house.  I figure let them come and get me.  I am perfectly sane
with the rest of my life and they seem to have given me special
psychic gifts.  I (sometimes) know when a relative will die.
Recently, I knew the moment my brother poked his eye out.  He
lives in New England and I live in Montana.  Also, I knew the
moment my mother died -- and I was hundreds of miles away.  I
have always felt they keep me VERY healthy and protected from
accidents.  When I was speeding, I knew where the police cars
were hidden.  Thanks to Judith.

SPACE SHUTTLE FOOTAGE: There is lots of talk about UFOs seen
from the space shuttle.  Decide for yourself, Jeff Chandler has
put together raw video footage of the NASA downloads.  Learn
exactly what is ice crystals and camera smudges?   You can
decide for yourself. Jeff gives pointers on how to look for
UFOs versus the standard excuses.  This is raw footage but well
worth seeing.  Only $25.00.  PHOTOGRAPH BOOKLET of some of the
best UFO shots available and data on their propulsion systems
by US Navy Commander Graham Bethune.. $10.00 Send check or money
order to G. Filer 222 Jackson Road, Medford, New Jersey 08055


BEFORE YOU BUY OR SELL A HOME SEE MY FREE REPORT -- All real
estate agents are not the same?  Some real estate agents or
sales representatives are part timers and inexperienced.
Others are experts with an excellent experience and
capabilities.  When you are selling or buying your home, you
need to make sure you have the best real estate agent working
for you before you make any important financial decisions on
one your biggest investments!  Remember, the majority of people
do not know the right questions to ask, and what pit falls can
cause major problems.  Picking the right real estate agent can
be a wonderful experience, and picking the wrong one can be a
big mistake that can waste your time and cost you thousands!
Find out, "What you need to understand before hiring any real
estate agent!" These are the questions that many agents do not
want you to ask.  Learn how you can obtain the best real estate
agent for your needs.  To get a free copy of this report, just
call (609) 654-0020 or e-mail us at Majorstar@aol.com. We can
also help you with your own or corporate Worldwide Relocation
to Australia, Benelux, Canada, Cayman Islands, England, France,
Guam, Hong Kong, Israel, Japan, Mexico, New Zealand, Northern
Ireland, Papua New Guinea, Philippines, Puerto Rico, and all 50
states of the United States.  We also have help with associates
that speak languages other than their native tongue.

MUFON UFO JOURNAL -- For more detailed monthly investigative
reports subscribe by contacting Mufon@aol.com. Mention I
recommended you for membership.  Filer's Files is Copyrighted
2000 by George A. Filer, all rights reserved.  Readers may post
items from the Files on their Web Sites provided that they
credit the newsletter and its editor by name and list the date
of issue that the item appeared.  Send your letters to
Majorstar@aol.com.  Sending mail automatically grants
permission for us to publish.  Please state if you wish to keep
your name or story confidential.










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   Apr > Apr 25

                    Re: Pentagon: No ETs In Our Programs

From: Ron Regehr <regehr@lasal.net>
Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 08:06:21 -0600
Fwd Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 13:06:12 -0400
Subject: Re: Pentagon: No ETs In Our Programs


 >Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2000 03:23:57 -0700
 >From: Marty Nosser <ufobia@dreamsoft.com>
 >Subject: Re: Pentagon: No ETs In Our Programs
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2000 03:26:20 -0400 (EDT)
 >>From: Steven L. Wilson Sr <Ndunlks@aol.com>
 >>Subject: Pentagon: No ETs In Our Programs
 >>To: undisclosed-recipients: ;

 >>Pentagon: No ETs in our programs

 >>April 19, 2000
 >>Web posted at: 12:33 PM EDT (1633 GMT)

 >>WASHINGTON (AP) -- Believe it or not, the Pentagon denied that
 >>extraterrestrials participate in classified U.S. military
 >>programs.

 >>Spokesman Ken Bacon was responding to reporters' questions about
 >>Monday's Internet posting of the first detailed satellite images
 >>of Area 51, the super-secret Air Force test site in Nevada that
 >>UFO buffs think holds alien technology.

 ><snip>

 >It's quite easy to deny the existance of any alien spacecraft,
 >etc. had ever been stored at the Area 51 location since it has
 >all been moved to their new location in White Sands, Utah since
 >February-May of 1997.

 >It is refered to as "Area 6413" now.  So, the Pentagon and any
 >spokesman for the government and military are safe in making
 >such a denial. I'm sure everyone remembers this relocation, but
 >as a reminder... It was getting too, much publicity and exposure
 >from shows such as Larry King and all of the TV specials that
 >were bombarding our airwaves regularly during 1996-97.

<snip>

Hello,

I am the MUFON State Director for Utah.

Would you share with me the location of Area 6413 (replacement
for Area 51)?

Thank you!

Ron Regehr








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   Apr > Apr 25

                  Pelly, Yukon Woman Tells Of UFO Sighting

From: Drew Williamson <werd@interlog.com>
Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 17:40:16 -0400 (EDT)
Fwd Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 13:14:39 -0400
Subject: Pelly, Yukon Woman Tells Of UFO Sighting


From: The Whitehorse Star
http://www.whitehorsestar.com
April 20, 2000

Pelly woman tells of UFO sighting
by Stephanie Waddell

For Leah Isaac, a strange encounter with the third kind on March
30 made a believer out of the former skeptic.

The episode, meanwhile, is attracting the interest of the
American media.

"I can't even travel at night anymore," the Pelly Crossing
resident told the Star in Whitehorse this morning.

Shortly after 5 a.m. on the day in question, Isaac was
travelling to Pelly from Whitehorse along the North Klondike
Highway with a friend when they came around a corner at Little
Fox Lake to a sight neither had seen before.

About 15 to 22 metres (50 to 75 feet) away was a disc-shaped
aircraft hovering about 60 metres (200 ft.) off the ground.

"It was silver and transparent," she noted. "It was like a
mirror. It was almost like you could see right through the
craft.

"It's so hard to explain because you never see that kind of
material. It's almost like you can see right through it."

Inside the craft appeared a blue, turquoise colour, but she did
not see a pilot nor anyone in the craft which she noted was "so
advanced.

"I was really scared, but I was really shocked when I've seen
it," Isaac said. "We were both shaking."

Isaac's analog watch stopped, while another friend's digital
watch went into chrono mode, the truck's tape deck stopped and
the lights on her vehicle dimmed.

"Everything went dead," she said.

Isaac reported the craft seemed to be somewhat confused at their
presence. After about five seconds, it shot in front of their
vehicle and stopped instantly on the left side of the road.

Isaac reported that she had never seen anything move so fast,
and it made no noise.

"I think if it wanted to hurt us, it probably would've," she
said.

As Isaac kept driving through the experience, her eyes were
peeled on the site, while her friends told her to "floor it."

They took off after the craft disappeared and didn't look back
for fear that it would follow them. It was about five minutes
before the watches began working again and 10 minutes before the
tape player resumed working.

"I was driving really fast, as fast as I ever drove, and then
when we stopped somewhere, we were just shaking."

When they got to Pelly, they began laughing about the event and
their reactions to it.

"I didn't even watch where I was driving," she said. "It's just
funny now that you think about it."

Although Isaac and her friend had initially agreed not to tell
anyone, before they got into Pelly, they changed their minds.

When Isaac arrived at her mother's house in Pelly, she
immediately drew a picture of the craft, wrote about it and
began telling her mother the story.

"She was really excited, too."

Isaac also contacted other friends and family that day to tell
them about her experience. While some say she "has made up a
good story," others believe her. There have been numerous
sightings around Fox Lake over the years.

"It's reality. I'm just telling people what I'd seen."

In the three weeks since the experience, she has spoken with the
media, including a Los Angeles radio station, in hopes that
others will come out with their own stories.

Although she's still scared to drive alone at night, it has
tweaked her curiosity and changed the way she views things.

"I think people should be aware of what's going on in the
Yukon," she said. "There's more sightings now than ever."

Before the experience, she was skeptical of other life in the
universe, but now she is curious to know what's out there and
has considered going back to the site early in the morning to
see if she can find out more. She's curious as to why the ship
was lingering near telephone poles.

"Our universe is so big, there must be something out there," she
said.








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   Apr > Apr 25

             UFO Reports In Canada Up 30% - 1999 Survey Results

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto
Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 13:36:07 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 13:36:07 -0400
Subject: UFO Reports In Canada Up 30% - 1999 Survey Results

Another splendid job by Chris Rutkowski & Geoff Dittman - well
done both of you! One day the international UFO community will
recognise the work that Geoff & Chris do in compiling and
distributing the _only_ national UFO survey.

ebk
___________________

Source: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Rampart/2653/99media.htm

Media notice: 25 April 2000

Number of UFO reports in Canada up 30%

An annual national study of UFO reports found 259 recorded cases
in Canada in 1999, up more than 30 per cent over the previous
year. The 1999 Canadian UFO Survey examined case reports made to
private UFO organizations and government sources.

"Year after year, Canadians continue to report seeing many
strange things flying in the sky," says study author Chris
Rutkowski, with Ufology Research of Manitoba, one of more than a
dozen volunteer private organizations investigating UFO cases in
Canada.

According to the study: the typical UFO sighting is of a bright
white or orange object seen in the night sky after 10:00 p.m. by
two witnesses who watch it for between five and eight minutes.
However, some witnesses report disc-shaped or triangular objects
moving at speeds and patterns seemingly unlike conventional
aircraft. Some witnesses are pilots, police and other
individuals with reasonably good observing capabilities and good
judgement.

Rutkowski, an astronomer and science writer in Winnipeg who has
been studying UFO reports in Canada for the past 25 years, says
some UFO reports do not have obvious explanations.

"Even after taking into account that many sightings turn out to
be airplanes, balloons, stars and satellites, we are still left
with some cases that don�t seem to have easy explanations," he
notes. "This doesn't necessarily mean that some UFOs are alien
spaceships as popularized in the media, but the continued
reporting of UFOs leads us to recommend more studies of the
phenomenon by social, medical and/or physical scientists."

"It�s definitely time that scientists took another long, hard
look at UFOs," he adds.

Among the cases listed as "Unknown" in 1999: a starlike object
moving erratically in the sky, seen by a Canadian Air Force
officer in Courtenay, BC; a triangular object seen "buzzing" CFB
Suffield in Alberta; two bright orange balls of light playing
"tag" with each other in the sky over Sudbury, Ontario; and a
glowing red sphere which flew from the ocean over mainland near
Salmon Cove, Newfoundland.

The 1999 Canadian UFO Survey is now available on the Internet
at:

www.geocities.com/Area51/Rampart/2653

For more information, and for information on regional
commentators, contact:

Chris Rutkowski
Ufology Research of Manitoba

E-mail: rutkows@cc.umanitoba.ca

Voice: 204-269-7553






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   Apr > Apr 25

                          Filer's Files #12 -- 2000

From: James Bond Johnson <JBONJO@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 15:58:19 -0400 (EDT)
Fwd Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 16:57:56 -0400
Subject: Filer's Files #12 -- 2000


 >Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 23:55:46 -0500 (EST)
 >From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@aol.com>
 >Subject: Re: Filer's Files #12 -- 2000
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >>From: James Bond Johnson <JBONJO@aol.com>
 >>Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 22:22:21 -0500 (EST)
 >>Fwd Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 04:22:06 -0500
 >>Subject: Re: Filer's Files #12 -- 2000

 >>There was _no_ press conference in General Ramey's office! I
 >>know, I was there taking the pictures.

 >Were you there taking pictures for 3 hours?


That whole scene lasted much less than three hours. I arrived
after 4 p.m. The "stuff" was still being unpacked -- and from
all appearances never was completely unpacked since there are at
least two unopened packages to be seen in all the known photos.
Ramey had not arrived to inspect it as yet. I took the photos
and left about 4:45 p.m. as best we can reconstruct the time
line. Ramey must have left his office no later than 5:30 p.m. to
have traveled to wbap, the radio station across Fort Worth to
prepare for his live broadcast re the "weather balloon" story
about an hour later.

 >No, you were there
 >for maybe 20 minutes. You were not a witness to what happened in
 >Ramey's office either before or after you arrived.

 >That is true.

 >>There were _no_ other civilians in the room.

 >Maybe not when you were there. But how would you know what
 >happened _after_ you left?

I don't. But I also know that there is no evidence
that any reporters ever arrived since no one
else filed any direct quotes as the result of a
personal interview of Ramey.

 >Three witnesses (Marcel, Dubose, and Newton) all spoke of
 >multiple reporters being there at one time.

I did carefully go over just that point later with
Newton. He cannot recall who was present and if
the photographer who took his picture was a
civilian or military (in uniform). He admits that his
affidavit was prepared for his signature.

 >Somebody took Newton's picture, the two wirephoto services
 >credited with the photo were civilian, and somebody quickly got
 >that photo into the Philadelphia Inquirer the next morning. That
 >suggests a least one more civilian photographer on the scene
 >_after_ you left.

It may suggest but proves nothing.

 >There is some other circumstantial evidence (which I've argued
 >with you about 100 times) that also is suggestive of other
 >reporters showing up afterwards.

You are good at arguing. I choose to only relate what I can
recall and reconstruct from the only evidence we have -- the
pictures. I do know that the only other star-telegram on duty
who could and would have attended any "press conference" has
told me over recent years that nothing like that ever happened.
And it is strange that any other reporters would have been
muzzled and not filed any stories of such electric events!

 >>Also, I was at least eight feet away from General Ramey
 >>photographing him as he was examining the Roswell debris which
 >>had just been delivered to his office by Major Marcel.

 >How do you know this debris was _necessarily_ the stuff from
 >Roswell or Mac Brazel's ranch? Why couldn't it have been
 >substitute debris brought it for a photo op with some unwitting
 >civilian photographer as part of a cover story?

I Have no idea and have never advanced any as to the etiology of
the debris I photographed. I just believe that is much too much
a Hollywood scenario that simply has _no_ basis in fact or logic
in the real world of "set decorating" capabilities of B-29
airplane drivers in 1947 -- when confronted w a totally NEW "far
out" problem for which they would have had _no_ training or
experience. Such a fantasy plot is too Randleized for me!

 >As Gen. Dubose said in his affidavit: "The material shown in
 >the photographs taken in Maj. Gen. Ramey's office was a weather
 >balloon. The weather balloon explanation for the material was a
 >cover story to divert the attention of the press."

As you know, most affidavits are prepared by others for
signature. I am most impressed that gen dubose did not have a
clear recollection of the photos until shown them by Jaime
Shandera, who interviewed him. I certainly can relate to that
since I could not recall how many pictures I took or even who
was in them until I had an opportunity to study them again.

 >>There would have been no concern in 1947 that my camera could
 >>possibly read the fine print on the Ramey Message from such a
 >>distance.

 >Agreed.

 >>How could Ramey have possibly imagined that 50 years later a
 >>computer enhancement could make this possible?

 >Agreed. Ramey could also have been a little careless. Secretary
 >of Defense Johnson likewise carelessly mentioned development of
 >the "H-bomb" to columnist Drew Pearson when Pearson was visiting
 >the White House in Jan. 1950. The "H-bomb" was headlines the
 >next day. Slip-ups happen.

Well, at least we are finding agreement on some
things!

Bond Johnson








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   Apr > Apr 25

                 Re: Dogs, Not 'Goat Sucker' Kill Livestock

From: Todd Lemire <tlemire@home.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 19:10:55 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 20:37:00 -0400
Subject: Re: Dogs, Not 'Goat Sucker' Kill Livestock


 >Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 11:29:42 -0500
 >From: Dr. Virgilio Sanchez-Ocejo <ufomiami@prodigy.net>
 >Subject: Re: Dogs, Not 'Goat Sucker' Kill Livestock
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2000 13:56:17 -0400
 >>From: Todd Lemire <tlemire@home.com>
 >>Subject: Dogs, Not 'Goat Sucker' Kill Livestock
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Dogs, Not 'Goat Sucker' Kill Livestock
 >>Updated: Fri, Apr 21 08:36 AM EDT

 >>SANTIAGO (Reuters) - Roving dogs and not a mythical,
 >>blood-thirsty beast known locally as "chupacabra", or "goat
 >>sucker", are responsible for the deaths of farm animals in
 >>northern Chile, a government official said on Thursday.

 >>"They are wandering dogs, which abound in the zone of Calama,"
 >>said Oscar Camacho, general director of the state-run
 >>Agriculture and Livestock Service.

 >Abstract from: 'La Tercera' newspaper
 >Saturday, April 22

 >by Alejandro Ahumada

 >Expert Finds That Footprints Do Not Match Any Animals Known In
 >This Area

<snip>

 >Witnesses described the "animal" to be one meter (3.5 feet)
 >tall, covered in hair, yellow eyes and walking on two legs

 >NOTE: We also received other reports: Police and local
 >ufologists received reports of strange red lights (UFOs) in the
 >region. Anti-narcotic police went to investigate the area
 >looking for a clandestine trafficker airport, but to their
 >surprise, found a perfect triangular mark. Locals said they
 >never had seen that mark before the 'Chupacabra' attacks.

 >Photos of the Chile footprints look to match the ones we took
 >here in Miami during the 'Chupacabra' attacks in 1996.

 >Dr. Virgilio Sanchez-Ocejo
 >Miami UFO Center
 >http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Corridor/1341/index.html

Greetings Dr. Virgilio Sanchez-Ocejo,

I visited the site that you reference above and I didn't notice
any actual photos of Chupacabra footprints, other than the photo
of the "footprint mold" you have for sale.  Where are these
photos of the Chile footprints, or any others for that matter?

Has any analysis been done on any of these photos, and/or soil
samples been taken from within the print(s)? I believe more
information posted at your referenced site above may be a
substantial help in aiding the public and other investigators to
understand this phenomena.

I do understand the need for funding, hence the sale of your
book and "plaster mold", but if this is a valid
entity/phenomena, there is a definite need for more information
than is currently available at your site.  There is alot of
"pomp and circumstance" within the "Chupacabra" links at the
Miami site, but nothing you can "sink your teeth into".....no
pun intended... :)

Sincerely,

Todd Lemire

Michigan UFO CENTRAL
http://members.home.net/tlemire/UFOCENTRAL.html
--
"The reason why the flying-saucer mystery has been-to put it
mildly-so exasperating, lies in the fact that we are all blind
men, nor can we hope to meet a sighted traveler who can help us.
But perhaps it is the beginning of knowledge to recognize our
blindness."

Aim Michel - "Flying Saucers and the Straight Line Mystery"






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                     McCain: UFO Sightings Meaningless?

From: Joe Murgia <Ufojoe1@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 23:17:41 -0400 (EDT)
Fwd Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2000 07:53:58 -0400
Subject: McCain: UFO Sightings Meaningless?


This doesn't bode well for any future UFO disclosure if McCain
ever made it to the White House. I would like to see an actual
quote from McCain to see if this is an accurate report.

Joe in Tampa
____________


Source:

http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/ao/20000425/cr/20000425001.html

Excerpt

<snip>

(Vietnam Prisoners) Sightings dismissed

McCain has said again and again that he has seen no "credible"
evidence that more than a tiny handful of men might have been
alive in captivity after the official prison return in 1973. He
dismisses all of the subsequent radio intercepts, live
sightings, satellite photos, CIA reports, defector information,
recovered enemy documents and reports of ransom demands --
thousands and thousands of pieces of information indicating live
captives -- as meaningless. He has even described these
intelligence reports as the rough equivalent of UFO and alien
sightings.

---








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                 Re: Dogs, Not 'Goat Sucker' Kill Livestock

From: Dr. Virgilio Sanchez-Ocejo <ufomiami@prodigy.net>
Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 23:54:14 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2000 08:01:06 -0400
Subject: Re: Dogs, Not 'Goat Sucker' Kill Livestock


 >Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 19:10:55 -0400
 >From: Todd Lemire <tlemire@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Dogs, Not 'Goat Sucker' Kill Livestock
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 11:29:42 -0500
 >>From: Dr. Virgilio Sanchez-Ocejo <ufomiami@prodigy.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Dogs, Not 'Goat Sucker' Kill Livestock
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

<snip>

 >>Photos of the Chile footprints look to match the ones we took
 >>here in Miami during the 'Chupacabra' attacks in 1996.


 >Greetings Dr. Virgilio Sanchez-Ocejo,

 >I visited the site that you reference above and I didn't notice
 >any actual photos of Chupacabra footprints, other than the photo
 >of the "footprint mold" you have for sale.  Where are these
 >photos of the Chile footprints, or any others for that matter?

<snip>

Sorry, you can find the actual photos of the 'Chupacabras' at
Tolchile web page:

http://www.fortunecity.es/expertos/industrial/17/chuella.htm

Under ARCHIVOS X

Dr. Virgilio Sanchez-Ocejo
Miami UFO Center
http://www.angelfire.com/fl/ufomiami/index.html
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Corridor/1341/index.html







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                Cydonian Imperative: Mars Conspiracy Theories

From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 21:02:33 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2000 08:29:57 -0400
Subject: Cydonian Imperative: Mars Conspiracy Theories


Mars: The Cydonian Imperative

4-25-2000

On Recent Conspiracy Theories

by Mac Tonnies

Elsewhere on the Cydonian Imperative site I concluded that the
only conspiracy at work concerning Cydonia re-photography was
one of "mutually assured ignorance." In light of Malin Space
Science Systems' abrupt, unannounced photo-dump of 4-5-00, I've
been forced to re-examine this stance. My research was aided
greatly by reading Dr. Stanley V. McDaniel's 'The McDaniel
Report', a 1993 document exposing the unsound methodology and
flawed epistemology that threatens the prospect of retrieving
high-resolution images of Cydonia in the near future.

'The McDaniel Report', not to be confused with the website of
the same name, is ultimately a scathing examination of one Dr.
Michael Malin, principal contractor for the Mars Orbiter Camera
(MOC), originally designed for inclusion on the failed Mars
Observor mission. Malin, in an unprecented political move by
NASA, was given legal 'ownership' of any and all incoming Mars
images, during which he is free to release them essentially at
his whim. Although his status entitles him to a six-month period
in which to prepare and sort any Mars photos deigned fit for
public exposure (a suspicuously long period, to say the least),
Malin's revelation that numerous images of Cydonia have been
taken in the last two years calls the integrity of MSSS and NASA
into serious question.

Given that privately sequestering photos of possibly explosive
scientific value (even for a period of six months) is absurd,
one is naturally forced to wonder where these images have been
over the last 28 months - and, more disturbingly, why the public
was not made aware of their existence until April 5.

This issue is made even more perplexing when one takes into
account Malin's outspoken criticism of Cydonia rephotography. He
has described rephotographing the Face (and other anomalies) as
a "waste of time" again an again, appealing to the prevailing
(and provenly false) official position that the 'Face' is a
trick of light and shadow that "vanishes" at different sun
angles. (After years of controversy, NASA was forced to admit
that the Viking frames 'proving' that the Face was an illusion
never even existed - but only after disseminating this fiction
to Congressional staffers and interested citizens. I personally
received an edited version of this document several years ago,
which goes to considerable lengths to avoid mention of nearly 20
years of cross-verified independent research.)

Why, then, has MSSS continued to not only take photos of the
Cydonia region, but apparently target specific sites in the
Cydonia region?

Malin admits on his website that a second attempt to
re-photograph the Face was made, resulting in a sequencing error
that returned no useful data. But orbital calculations show that
additional opportunities for re-photographing the Face (and
possibly other anomalous formations) have been met by
consciously repositioning the Mars Global Surveyor.

Whether additional photos have actually been taken remains an
opoen question for the time being. But, given Malin's
duplicitous involvement with the issue, I think it's naive to
reject the possibility that NASA is in possession of additional
high-resolution Cydonia pictures.

With the mainstream news media effectively placated by the
horribly over-contrasted 'Catbox' image of the Face in 1998,
whatever agency ultimately responsible for handling the Cydonia
situation apparently feels it can continue its disservice to
science with impunity. The nature of this 'Agency' is, of
course, the centerpiece for the understandable concern and
annoyance that has flooded Cydonia discussions on the Internet.

It's conceivable that Malin's convenient stranglehold on
incoming Mars data is in fact a means for an intelligence
organization to monitor (and possibly screen) controversial new
photographs. This isn't nearly as paranoid as it sounds.

In 1960, NASA was provided with an exhaustive document by the
Brookings Institution, a think-tank based in Washington, D.C.
The report, examining future "peaceful activities in space,"
specifically mentions the possibility of discovering alien
artifacts on the surfaces of other celestial bodies, Mars being
one of the candidates. (This speculation was almost certainly
not the product of the authors' imaginations; Dr. Carl Sagan,
the most articulate and well-known astronomer to have addressed
the possibility of extrasolar visitation, had concluded that it
was plausible that we might encounter telltale signs of
intelligence in the solar system as we continued to expand into
space.)

In a possible foreshadowing of our present predicament regarding
Cydonia, the Brookings report warned that public knowledge of
advanced nonhuman intelligence could shatter existing social
paradigms, and urged secrecy if alien ruins were discovered.
Alarmingly, such secrecy measures conform to the confusing
politics that have descended on NASA/JPL's Mars exploration
program after the failure of the Mars Climate Orbiter and Mars
Polar Lander (with a former head of the supersecret National
Security Agency being placed in a position to potentially
dictate Mars policy behind the scenes).

Are we being skillfully (or unskillfully) acclimated to the
existence of probable extraterrestrial ruins on Mars? It's worth
noting that the Brookings paper recommended a period of
acclimatization before revealing definitive proof of
extraterrestrial intelligence. Certainly an issue as potentially
incendiary as the literal redefinition of our species would
warrant similar contingencies.

The most outspoken voice for this viewpoint is Richard Hoagland,
who provides his perspective in the following two articles.
(Including these links does not mean that I endorse Hoagland's
perspective on Cydonia or anything else; indeed, I think his
standards for evidence and enthusiasm for the scientific method
have degenerated since the publication of his excellent book,
'The Monuments of Mars'.')


Malin Suddenly 'Finds' New Images of Cydonia - Skullduggery
Continues at MSSS:

http://www.enterprisemission.com/skull.htm

Malin Points MGS at the Face - But What is He Hiding?:

http://www.enterprisemission.com/malin2.htm


Additionally, Hoagland notes some interesting symmetry in a mesa
adjacent to the Face (and muses that it was in fact one of MSSS'
specified targets) and points out a low-resolution anomaly on
the Face itself that he identifies as a possible entrance,
complete with ramp.


=====
Mac Tonnies
239 E. Sea
Independence, MO 65050
816-833-5910
macbot@yahoo.com
http://www.geocities.com/macbot/mtvi.html







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               1999 Canadian UFO Survey Now Available On-Line

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto
Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2000 08:53:17 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2000 08:53:17 -0400
Subject: 1999 Canadian UFO Survey Now Available On-Line


Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2000 07:36:47 -0500 (CDT)
From: Chris Rutkowski <rutkows@cc.umanitoba.ca>
Subject: Re: [canufo] 1999 Canadian UFO Survey Now Available On-Line
To: canufo@egroups.com


ghostgirl writes:

 >I'm a fellow Canadian new to this list. Wanted to mention I
 >heard your survey being mentoned on CP24 in Toronto earlier.
 >Their response to the increase in sightings reported within the
 >survey was that these types of jumps in sightings are a direct
 >result of the popularity of UFO themed t.v shows, sorry didn't
 >catch which one they cited as the cause of this increase. My
 >question to you is this... to what extent, if any does the
 >increase in sightings relate to media? Was there an increase in
 >reported UFO activity during say the first season of the
 >X-files?

 >BTW I did read your survey, and was impressed with the obvious
hard >work put into it!

Thanks, Susan.

Their reaction is one which I try to address when I'm
interviewed by reporters. While true to a certain degree, the
reality is that the media link is only one of many factors which
influence sighting reports. There have been several studies of
UFO reports and media, the most notable being one by Herbert
Strentz a few decades ago, in which he found that the media
*greatly* controlled UFO sightings. However, one can easily
dispel the X-Files myth by looking at last year. Sightings are
way up, and interest in the X-Files is way down. Obviously, no
connection, right?

Another thing to consider is that when a newspaper or radio
station covers a local UFO sighting, what inevitably happens is
that more people start looking up and more UFO sightings are
reported. So the media may not be influencing people's beliefs,
but may be a way of getting them to report their own
experiences. Is that the same kind of "media effect"?

Thanks for your excellent question!


--
Nobody in particular

____________________

1999 Canadian UFO Survey results available at:

www.geocities.com/Area51/Rampart/2653







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   Apr > Apr 26

                   Re: McCain: UFO Sightings Meaningless?

From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@rocler.qc.ca>
Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2000 08:48:19 -0700
Fwd Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2000 08:58:16 -0400
Subject: Re: McCain: UFO Sightings Meaningless?


 >Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 23:17:41 -0400 (EDT)
 >From: Joe Murgia <Ufojoe1@aol.com>
 >Subject: McCain: UFO Sightings Meaningless?
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca


 >This doesn't bode well for any future UFO disclosure if McCain
 >ever made it to the White House. I would like to see an actual
 >quote from McCain to see if this is an accurate report.

<snip>

 >Source:

 >http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/ao/20000425/cr/20000425001.html

 >Excerpt

 ><snip>

 >(Vietnam Prisoners) Sightings dismissed
 >
 >McCain has said again and again that he has seen no "credible"
 >evidence that more than a tiny handful of men might have been
 >alive in captivity after the official prison return in 1973. He
 >dismisses all of the subsequent radio intercepts, live
 >sightings, satellite photos, CIA reports, defector information,
 >recovered enemy documents and reports of ransom demands --
 >thousands and thousands of pieces of information indicating live
 >captives -- as meaningless. He has even described these
 >intelligence reports as the rough equivalent of UFO and alien
 >sightings.

Hello Joe,

The same reference _also_ mentions:

[...]

"But there was one subject that was off-limits, a subject the
Arizona senator almost never brings up and has never been open
about -- his long-time opposition to releasing documents and
information about American prisoners of war in Vietnam and the
missing in action who have still not been accounted for. Since
McCain himself, a downed Navy pilot, was a prisoner in Hanoi for
5 1/2 years, his staunch resistance to laying open the POW/MIA
records has baffled colleagues and others who have followed his
career. His anti-disclosure campaign, in close co-operation with
the Pentagon and the intelligence community, has been
successful. Literally thousands of documents that would
otherwise have been declassified long ago have been legislated
into secrecy."

[...]

It does have a familiar ring.

Serge Salvaille







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                      UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 5, Number 17

From: John Hayes <webmaster@ufoinfo.com>
Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2000 19:49:13 +0100
Fwd Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2000 22:57:55 -0400
Subject: UFO ROUNDUP, Volume 5, Number 17


      UFO ROUNDUP
Volume 5, Number 17
April 27, 2000
Editor: Joseph Trainor

mailto:Masinaigan@aol.com

http://ufoinfo.com/roundup/


CHUPACABRA HUNTED BY
POLICE IN CHILE

      On Wednesday, April 19, 2000, Carabineros
(Chile's national police--J.T.) conducted an intensive
search for a Chupacabra on the outskirts of Calama,
a small city 300 kilometers (180 miles) northeast of
Antofagasta.
      The Carabineros fired several shots at an unknown
intruder on the north bank of Rio Loa and later found
several strange footprints at the spot.
      According to the newspaper El Diario, "on Wednesday
night, the fast, sudden movement of 'something' inside
the bushes, accompanied by a strange howling, alerted
police officers who fired a volley of shots in the air in the
vicinity of the local cemetery."
      "Nothing was found afterward except for a pair of
strange footprints which were taken and sent to Santiago
(Chile's national capital--J.T.) for analysis."
      "Carabineros searched the north bank of the Rio Loa
for more than three hours, covering four kilometers on
foot, in search of the culprit (responsible for) the deaths
of nearly 200 animals, but the possibility of human
involvement has not been discounted."
      Carabineros from the cuartel (barracks) at Aguas
Buenas conducted the search and fired the shots at
the intruder, which local residents said was a
Chupacabra (Spanish for goat sucker--J.T.)
      The Chupacabra first appeared on the island of
Puerto Rico in 1995.  Since then the creature has
been sighted in Mexico and Brazil.
      "Police officers unsuccessfully combed the farms
in the suburbs of" Calama "to search for an alleged
Chupacabra which had already slain some 200 sheep
and which had also attacked pigs in recent days,"
between April 15 and April 20.
      "Alarmed by recent attacks, the regional government
ordered patrols of the outskirts of the desert mining
region about 1,600 kilometers (1,000 miles) north of
Santiago de Chile.  Policemen, accompanied by tracking
dogs and under orders to open fire if attacked searched
the farms where the locals maintain small cultivation
operations..."
      "The slaughter of pigs and sheep has been
attributed not only to the Chupacabras--attorney and
ufologist Boris Campos says that aliens from space
may be to blame for the carnage."
      On Thursday morning, April 20, 2000, authorities
in San Fernando, another community of the El Loa
region, west of Calama, received "reports about the
strange deaths of some 30 hens, ducks, pigs and
dogs in several areas.  These killings have also been
attributed to the Chupacabras."
     "The bizarre deaths of sheep and goats in the
region of Labanda, El Loa province, led to a summoning
of a multi-agency meeting to discuss the subject and
to agree on measures aimed at putting an end to the
problem, and above all, determine who or what has
caused the deaths..."
      While the interagency meeting was taking place,
more reports were received from Talcarehue, near San
Fernando, "where strange animal deaths have also been
reported over the past few days.  Locals speak of the
strange deaths of a hog, a dog, six chickens and some
ducks under circumstances that remain unexplained, as
well as the presence of footprints for which no explanation
could be found."
      On Saturday, April 22, 2000, authorities in northern
Chile began to attribute the rash of strange animal deaths
to a roving pack of wild dogs.
      "Lucas Bouchard, chief of Environmental Hygiene and
Food in Calama, explained that these animals tend to
bite each other during fights, inflicting deep bloody wounds,
thus developing a taste for the substance (blood).  This
gives rise to the hypothesis that (the dogs) running in
packs now slay animals, and given the difficulty of
consuming the flesh, are content to drink their blood."
      Francisco Segocia, regional governor of El Loa
province, said, "The footprints were taken to the
Investigations lab.  We cannot say what they are at this
time, but at first sight, they come pretty near to dog
prints, which tend to expand and acquire strange
shapes.  An operation has been conducted, and we
want to point out that no evidence of the presence of a
strange animal was found, nor of any strange phenomena
that could be the cause of the animals' deaths."  (See the
Miami Herald for April 20, 2000.  Also El Diario and
El Mercurio de Chile for April 20, 2000.  Muchas gracias
a Scott Corrales, auto de los libros Chupacabras and
Other Mysteries y Forbidden Mexico, y tambien Gloria
Coluchi para esas histories.)

MYSTERIOUS LIGHTS HOVER
OVER CASEYVILLE, ILLINOIS

      Four months after the January 5th incident,
southern Illinois is again the stage for a UFO drama.
      "A rash of bright-light sightings early Thursday,"
April 20, 2000, "could have been little green men,
but UFO experts are skeptical."
      "Investigators with the National Insitutute for
Discovery Science initially were excited by reports
from the Illinois State Police and Caseyville police
early Thursday because they were so near the
January 5 sighting in Highland, Lebanon, Millstadt
and Dupo.  And it occurred just after 4 a.m.--about
the same time the earlier sighting occurred, said
institute investigator Roger Pinson."
      "But a lack of identifiable witnesses or a precise
UFO description--coupled with a storm Wednesday
night that pelted the area with rain, high winds and
lightning--quickly fizzled the investigation's drive,
Pinson said."
      "'No one was able to see an actual shape.  All
people saw was lights.  There was no pattern or color or
intensity.'" added Pinson, who also reportedly said the
lack of such details "'made it difficult to, for lack of a
better word, to get excited about.'"
      "He admitted there was a '100 percent possibility'
the light seen Thursday was related to the object reported
January 5 but said it was unlikely."
      "Officials at Scott Air Force Base and at Lambert Field
in St. Louis (Missouri) no sightings or signs of spacecraft
on the radars."
      "The Illinois State Police received an anonymous call
just before 4 a.m. Thursday reporting bright lights.  And
Caseyville police received six calls between 3:30 a.m.
and 4:30 a.m. placing the bright lights over a roughly
five-mile (eight-kilometer) radius between Fairmont Park
and Illinois (Highways) 157 and 161."  (See the
Belleville, Ill. News-Democrat for April 22, 2000,
"Expert: Sighting likely not UFOs."  Many thanks to
Gerry Lovell for forwarding the newspaper article.)

UFO APPEARS TWICE OVER
HAMILTON, OHIO

      On Saturday evening, April 15, 2000, Ronald G.
was working at the Meijer store in Hamilton, Ohio
(population 62,000), a small city on Route 127
approximately 22 miles (35 kilometers) north of
Cincinnati.  Suddenly, he saw a bright gleam in
the western sky.
      "I was doing the lot at Meijer, moving shopping
carts off the lot," Ronnie reported, "And all of a sudden
I looked up and saw a UFO.  It was moving at a fast
rate of speed.  A very fast rate of speed!"
      "The color was a light red-orange color, and the
shape was like an oval or a circle.  The length of the
UFO was at least 10 feet by 10 feet (3 meters by
3 meters).  And it was going at a rate of speed of
about 700 miles per hour (1,120 kilometers per hour).
As it streaked over the skies above Meijer, it speeded
up and it was gone."
      "The same thing happened the following night
(Sunday, April 16, 2000), and it was the same color
and shape," he added, "It slowed down to 650 miles
per hour as it approached Meijer."  (Email Form
Report)

COUPLE SEES "VERY BRIGHT"
UFO OVER SOUTH AFRICA

      On Saturday, April 22, 2000, at 7:45 p.m., Alan J.
and his wife were standing outside their home in
George, Southern Cape province, South Africa when
they spotted a bright object approaching from the west.
      "I thought I was looking at a Satellite, but it was
very bright," Alan reported.  "Much brighter than any
night star or Satellite. It went dim as my wife and I
were watching it, and it travelled at about the same
speed as a Satellite," moving from west to east.
      "We studied it for about 15 seconds total."
      "Alan, who was facing northwest when he saw
the UFO, added that "It was brighter than any night star
and was travelling in a straight line."
      George is in Southern Cape province approximately
400 kilometers (250 miles) east of Capetown.  (Email
Form Report)

FRENCH UFO GROUP OBTAINS
RADAR RECORDS FROM THE
MINISTRY OF DEFENSE

      SOS OVNI, the French UFO research group, has
obtained documents proving that France's Ministry of
Defense tracked a UFO on radar during a close
encounter in 1998.
      According to issue number 43 of Phenomene, a
newstand UFO magazine, "in August 1998, a civilian
living near Metz saw a spherical object which beamed
down a light as it flew over his head."
      The witness reported his encounter to the
Gendarmerie (France's national police--J.T.)  During
the investigation, the Gendarmerie "showed him a file
which seemed to show that the military had tracked
the OVNI (French acronym for UFO--J.T.) on radar."
      The file reportedly showed that the UFO had been
tracked by radar at the Drachenbronn Air Control
Center, north of Strasbourg in eastern France.
      In February 1999, SOS OVNI sent a request
for information letter to France's Ministry of Defense,
asking for a copy of the radar report.  A similar request
was also sent to the facility at Drachenbronn, but there
was no response from the air control center.
      "In July 1999, investigators from SOS OVNI received
a copy of the Gendarmerie report.  The military radar
detection was mentioned in unquestionable terms."
      Armed with this report, SOS OVNI again lobbied
the ministry to release the actual Drachenbronn radar
detection report.  Their request was referred to the
Commission d'Acces aux Documents Administratifs
(CADA), a French agency that reviews all requests
made under that country's freedom of information act,
deciding "which documents may or may not be released
under the act."
      Last month, CADA issued a favorable response
and turned over the Drachenbronn reports to SOS OVNI.
      "The report states, 'We detected radar track ME-403
with no information about the height (altitude) of an oject
on which we have absolutely no data.'"  (Merci beaucoup a
Perry Petrakis de SOS OVNI pour ces nouvelles.)

JACKRABBIT HORDE RUNS
WILD IN FARGO, NORTH DAKOTA

      One of the strangest Fortean "swarms" of recent
years took place on Saturday, April 22, 2000--the day
before Easter Sunday--when hundreds of large brown
jackrabbits overran yards and streets in Fargo
(population 75,000), a large city in eastern North
Dakota.
      The animals were described as prairie jackrabbits,
brown with white tails, with long ears and slightly
larger than the average rabbit of the species.  They
were believed to have crossed the Red River from the
prairie east of neighboring Moorhead, Minnesota
(population 33,000).
      Rabbits were seen and videotaped hopping along
University Drive and 17th Avenue, and also along
Interstate Highway I-94, particularly the grassy
median strip between the traffic lanes.
(Editor's Comment:  True enough!  I counted over
ten rabbits in the Fargo TV station's five-second
video clip, which aired Saturday night.)
      Scientists had no immediate explanation for
the sudden and unexpected rabbit migration.
(Many thank to WDIO-TV Channel 10 here in
Duluth, Minn. for the report.)

SCIENTISTS USE DNA TO
SOLVE DAUPHIN MYSTERY

      "Scientists have cracked one of France's
most enduring mysteries, saying an ailing boy
who died in a Paris prison more than 200 years
ago was the son of King Louis XVI and Marie
Antoinette and heir to the French throne."
      "The fate of Louis XVI's ten-year-old son,"
also known as Prince Louis-Charles, Duc (Duke)
de Normandie, "had long intrigued France.  Some
declared the dead boy to be Louis XVII; others
said the royal heir escaped and another child died
in his place to save official face during the unstable
days of the French Revolution."
      "Scientists from two European universities
compared DNA from the long-preserved heart of
the dead boy to DNA from hair cut from Marie
Antoinette when she was a child in Austria."
      "'It was Louis XVII.  It was the last little
king of France who died in the Temple prison,'
French historian Philippe Delorme said.  'It's
definitive.'"  (See the Duluth, Minn. News-
Tribune for April 20, 2000, "Boy identified as
the Dauphin," page 2A.  For more on the
Dauphin mystery, be sure to read this week's
feature story in UFO Roundup.)

NEW UFO BOOK MAKES
DEBUT ON MAY 1

      The Field Guide to UFOs makes it debut in
bookstores across the USA on May 1, 2000.
Written by Dennis Stacy and Patrick Huyghe,
the book "identifies and categorizes the dozens of
different shapes the UFO phenomenon exhibits
globally.  From double-ringed to triangular-shaped
UFOs, from saucers to cigar-shaped craft--and more--
The Field Guide to UFOs documents each variant,
describes extraordinary encounters, and even
offers the skeptic's explanation for some of the
sightings."
      The Field Guide to UFOs will be of interest of
believers and skeptics alike, as well as all those
interested in the unknown.  It's thorough and
intriguing.  For anyone trying to make sense of the
UFO enigma, this is an essential book.
      The Field Guide to UFOs features fifty of the
best UFO cases on record, provides an artist's
interpretation of what was seen in each case, as well
as a skeptic's explanation for the phenomenon.
      The authors are well-known researchers in the
UFO field.
      Dennis Stacy, who lives in San Antonio, Texas,
was the editor of the monthly MUFON UFO Journal
from 1985 to 1997 and received the 1995 Donald E.
Keyhoe Journalism Award for a six=part series on
UFOs that appeared in Omni magazine.
      Patrick Huyghe, who resides in Putnam Valley,
New York, is the author of The Field Guide to
Extraterrestrials.  His articles on UFOs have appeared
in the New York Times, Omni and other publications.
      Huyghe and Stacy also edit and publish The
Anomalist, a Web-based and printed journal that
explores strange mysteries of science, history and
nature.  (Many thanks to Harper Collins Publishers
for the news release.)

from the UFO Files...

1793: BLACK MAGIC IN THE
           TEMPLE PRISON

                                Or

          "Help!  I'm A Prisoner of the Illuminati!"

      For nearly two centuries it was rumored that
Louis XVII, the son of Queen Marie Antoinette, was
smuggled out of the Temple prison in Paris and that
a sickly child was left in his place.  This week "the
Dauphin mystery" was finally solved, as French
scientists used DNA tests to positively identify the
child as Prince Louis-Charles, the Duc (Duke) de
Normandie.
      Well, if ever a child was born at the wrong time
to the wrong family, it was Louis-Charles, the last
Dauphin of France.
      He was born with great fanfare at Versailles on
March 27, 1785, the son of King Louis XVI and his
Austrian-born wife.  But when he was four years old,
the people of Paris stormed the Bastille, touching off
the French Revolution.
      Events followed in quick succession.  Louis's
family attempted to flee the country in 1792, only to be
captured at Varennes and brought back to Paris as
prisoners.
(Editor's Note: A happening which fulfilled several
prophecies by Nostradamus.)
      Louis's father was placed on trial in December.
He was condemned on January 16, 1793 and went to
the guillotine five days later.
      The Committee of Public Safety decided to remove
Louis-Charles, age 8, from his mother's custody so
he could be raised "democratically."  Four officers went
to the queen's apartment at the Temple prison to take
the child.  Marie Antoinette "defended him for an hour
or more, refusing to let the officers come near him,
enduring their insults and threats, and reduced in the end
to pleading with the man not to take away what was
dearest to her in the world...She could not bear to part
from him.  She wept and prayed and defended his bed
until the officers lost patience with her and told her bluntly
that they would kill both her children unless she let the
boy go.  They defeated her.  She and (daughter) Elizabeth
dressed Louis-Charles, kissed him and told him he had
to do as the men asked, though he too wept piteously and
clung to his mother."
      And so Louis-Charles passed into the custody of two
of the most sinister Illuminati of the period-- Pierre G.
Chaumette and Jacques Rene Hebert.
      Chaumette, age 30, "was an untidy, sloppily dressed
little man with staring blue eyes under a shock of blond
hair, in a heavy, big-nosed, thick-lipped sensual face.
He spoke in a voice frayed with hoarseness which enhanced
his dramatic style and the artificial effects of his
histrionic .  He drank a great deal.  He amused himself
with botany and literature; he went in for mysticism and
emotional hysterias; he was an atheist...He was all at
odds with himself--the Revolution furnished an outlet for so
many neurotics...A man who hounded prostitutes and
vendors of dirty books, and indulged in the most
immoral personal habits."
      Strangely, Chaumette was married to an ex-nun,
the leader of her own sect, which was devoted to
"the sansculotte Jesus."
      "The frigid, fastidious, thin-lipped Hebert was less
complicated.  He was simply the gutter rat digging
himself into the larder.  He hated wealth, but he
coveted money.  He despised birth and rank, but
he wanted power...An evil spirit, armed with cruelty
and deceit, fashioning ruthless intrigues."
      "Such were personalities into whose hands the
boy had fallen, now that he had finally 'passed over
to the men.'"
(Editor's Note: Hebert, incidentally, was one of the
leaders of the "dechristianization" movement and a
close associate of Anacharsis Clootz.  For more on
Clootz, see UFO Roundup volume 5, number 16.)
      Chaumette had a 56-year-old cobbler named
Antoine Simon appointed as Louis-Charles's new
father.  Like Chaumette, Simon was a heavy drinker
and an aficionado of pornographic picture books.
      "What does the Convention intend to do with
him?" asked Simon, when the prince was delivered
into his custody.  "Transport him?"
      Chaumette shook his head.  "No."
      "Kill him?"
      "no."
      "Poison him?"
      "No."
      "What, then?" Simon asked.
      "We have big plans for the whelp," Chaumette
replied, and he would say nothing more.
      Louis-Charles underwent an ordeal not too
different from that faced by heiress Patty Hearst
175 years later.  "The child's screams and cries
went on for several days, and his mother, imagining
the worst, must have thought that Simon was
beating him into submission."
      Simon beat the boy unmercifully.  On one
occasion, he towered over the boy, gloating,
"What would you do to me if you were king?"
      Wiping away the tears, Louis-Charles thought
of his dead father and murmured, "I'd forgive you."
      Chaumette seemed delighted at the way
his crony Simon was turning "the whelp" into
the perfect little sansculotte.  But not everybody
approved of the situation.  A Jacobin politician
who visited the Temple wrote, "Dirty books,
cursing, playing cards and brandy--this is the
environment the boy is immersed in.  Which is
not surprising because it is Citizen Simon's own
habitat."
      The prince's biographer Meade Hunnungrode
wrote, "What other dreadful things Hebert may have
done to him will never be known.  There were all
sorts of rumors."
      There is circumstantial evidence to suggest that
the Illuminati may have used Louiis-Charles as
"Lucifer bait" in a bizarre invocation ceremony at the
end of October in 1793.
      (1) After Louis-Charles's death, Dr. Gomin found
physical evidence of sexual abuse--hernia, lower
abdomen contusions, and such.
      (2) Another Temple visitor reported that "the
child has a morbid fear of locks and chains,"
which the visitor found odd.  The prince had been
a prisoner for years by then, and the visitor thought
he should have been used to the sounds.
(Editor's Comment: Not if he was being shackled
to a pentagram-covered table.)
      (3) Simon, who was picking up some spare
change by selling information to British intelligence,
had become a very unhappy camper.  The UK's
spy reported that Simon "had been so frightened by
the danger he was incurring that he was doing
everything which the scoundrels (Chaumette and
Hebert) wanted, was not giving any news any more
(my emphasis--J.T.) and was working only to get
out of his post."
      (4) In December 1793, Simon told the spy
that prostitutes "are no longer being brought to
the Temple."  An eight-year-old boy has no need
for a prostitute.  But an Illuminatus intent on
performing a magickal ritual just might.
      There was a mass execution of the Girondins,
enemeis of Clootz, Chaumette, Hebert and their
fellow enrages on October 31, 1793--Halloween,
also the Celtic feast of Samhain.
      A week later, on November 10, 1793, Hebert
appeared before the Convention and "presented
the Goddess of Reason under the guise of an
actress."
(Editor's Note:  Here's where things really get weird.
The actress was Henriette Duplessis.  After the
Revolution, she went and hid out in Chechnya.
In the 1840s, she became the governess of Elena
Petrovna von Hahn, who grew up to become
Madame Blavatsky.)
      Whatever the Illuminati conjured up on
Halloween, it sure scared Chaumette.  He lost
all interest in Louis-Charles.  Indeed, he never
again set foot in the Temple.
      On January 4, 1794, Chaumette forced Simon
out of his job, and the elderly ex-cobbler "was now
free to go to his flat across the river; or to the
second flat which he had leased in the former
Frasnciscan convent in the same quarter, or to the
third set of rooms which he had rented in the stable
building within the Temple enclosure.  Not even the
elusive (Baron de) Batz had so many domiciles."
      Simon found a new customer for his information--
Maximilien Robespierre, the arch-enemy of Clootz
and Hebert.  Robespierre was very much interested
in knowing just who had attended the Illuminati's
hoodoo hootenannies at the Temple.
      Hebert was guillotined with his associate Clootz
and 17 other Illuminati on March 24, 1794.
      Chaumette was arrested, imprisoned in the
Luxembourg and guillotined on April 13, 1794.
His wife, the ex-nun turned mystic, was guillotined
two weeks later.
      Simon had his revenge, but he didn't live to
enjoy it.  Robespierre was overthrown on July 27,
1794 and executed the very next day.  The day
after that, July 29, 1794, Antoine Simon, the
prince's guardian and the man who knew too
much, was guillotined as a "Robespierrist."
      Long after the Revolution, in 1814, Madame
de Simon claimed that her husband had helped
Louis-Charles to escape.  She claimed to have
seen Simon and the boy leave the prison
together, dressed as sansculottes.  Interestingly,
other witnesses reported seeing the boy at night
on the streets of Paris.  Where Simon was taking
him is not known.
      These reports gave rise to the story of the
prince's "escape."
      In actuality, Louis-Charles lived out the
remainder of his life as the forgotten prisoner of the
Temple.  Malnourished and living in utter filth
and squalor, he soon fell ill.  A doctor named Gomin
was summoned in June of 1794, but it was too late.
      The day before he died, Louis-Charles had an
unusual near-death experience (NDE).
     "When Gomin went up to the child's room on the
morning of June 8th, he said, seeing him calm and
motionless and mute: 'I hope you are not in pain
just now.'"
      "'Oh, yes, I am still in pain but not nearly so
much.  The music is so beautiful.'"
      "Now there was no music to be heard, either in
the Tower or anywhere near."
      "Gomin, astonished, said to him, 'From what
direction do you hear this music?'"
      "'From above.'"
      ""'Heave you heard it long?'"
      "'Since you knelt down.  Do you hear it?  Listen!
listen!'  And the child with a nervous motion, raised
his faltering hand, as he opened his large eyes
illuminated by delight.  His poor keeper, unwilling to
destroy this last sweet illusion, appeared to listen also."
      "After a few minutes of attention, the child again
started and cried out in intense rapture, 'Amongst all
the voices I have distinguished that of my mother!'"
      "Those were almost his last words."
      At 2:15 p.m. om June 8, 1795, Louis-Charles,
also known as Petit Capet (Little Capet) passed away.
      The death certificate was impersonal and breif:
"Louis-Charles Capet.  Born at Versailles March 27,
1785.  Died at the Temple prison June 9 (suc).
Ten years, two months of age."
      There may be worse fates than being shackled
to a pentagram-covered table with the most
notorious diabolists in Paris crowded around--
Anarcharsis Clootz, Madame de Chaumette, the
Marquis de Sade, Catherine Theot and Jacques
Rene Hebert--all of them waving black candles
and yelping for Lucifer.  But I doubt it.  An
experience like that would terrify even Mammy
Pleasant!  (See the books Memoirs of the Court
of Marie Antoinette, volume 2, by Mme. Campan,
Merrill & Banker, New York, N.Y., 1888, pages 300
to 310; The Son of Marie Antoinette by Meade
Minningrode, Farrar and Knowles, Inc., New York, N.Y.,
1931, pages 198, 199, 204, 205, 212, 214 and 215;
To the Scaffold by Carolly Erickson, William Morrow
and Co., New York, N.Y., 1991, page 336 and
La Culte de Raison et de l'Etre Supreme by F.A.
Aulard, Paris, 1892.)

Today's Quote:  What we do is report the news.
If it stirs up trouble, so be it.  The newspaper nusiness
is not a popularity contest."  Goodloe Sutton,
publisher of the Linden, Ala. Democrat-Reporter.

      Join us next week for more UFO news from around
the planet Earth, brought to you by "the paper that
goes home--UFO Roundup."  See you then.

UFO ROUNDUP: Copyright 2000 by Masinaigan
Productions, all rights reserved.  Readers may post
news items from UFO Roundup on their websites or
in newsgroups provided that they credit the
newsletter and its editor by name and list the date
of issue in which the item first appeared.

*********************************************************
IMPORTANT Please Read:
======================

The Hunger Site
---------------
http://www.thehungersite.com

Every 3.6 seconds somebody starves to death. 3/4 of the
deaths are children under 5. By visiting the Hunger Site
and clicking on a button you can donate free food.

There is absolutely no charge to you for the donation -
the food is paid for by sponsors.

Do this once a day (no more) and help make a difference!
If you have a web site download a banner and give a link!
*********************************************************

E-Mail Reports to: Joseph Trainor <Masinaigan@aol.com>
or use the Sighting Report Form at:

http://ufoinfo.com/forms/form_sighting.htm


Website comments: John Hayes <webmaster@ufoinfo.com>

UFOINFO: http://ufoinfo.com

Official Archives of the UK UFO Network Bulletin,
AUFORN Australian UFO Reports and Experiences,
UFO + PSI Magazine also available, plus archives of
Filer's Files.








   UFO UpDates
   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 >
   Apr > Apr 26

              Re: Cydonian Imperative: Mars Conspiracy Theories

From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2000 15:59:57 -0400 (EDT)
Fwd Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2000 23:04:22 -0400
Subject: Re: Cydonian Imperative: Mars Conspiracy Theories


 >From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
 >Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 21:02:33 -0700 (PDT)
 >Fwd Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2000 08:29:57 -0400
 >Subject: Cydonian Imperative: Mars Conspiracy Theories

<snip>

 >'The McDaniel Report', not to be confused with the website of
 >the same name, is ultimately a scathing examination of one Dr.
 >Michael Malin, principal contractor for the Mars Orbiter Camera
 >(MOC), originally designed for inclusion on the failed Mars
 >Observer mission. Malin, in an unprecedented political move by
 >NASA, was given legal 'ownership' of any and all incoming Mars
 >images, during which he is free to release them essentially at
 >his whim. Although his status entitles him to a six-month period
 >in which to prepare and sort any Mars photos deigned fit for
 >public exposure (a suspiciously long period, to say the least),

You ought to check up on your facts before making a claim such
as this. Six months is standard for exclusive use of pixs for
the Hubble Space Telescope, and for like data from other
scientific spacecraft and satellites.

 >Malin's revelation that numerous images of Cydonia have been
 >taken in the last two years calls the integrity of MSSS and NASA
 >into serious question.

Huh? What would you have said if he had never mentioned the
pictures? That it proved he was on the up and up? No, you
would have claimed that it showed some conspiracy, just as you
have after he mentioned the pictures.

 >Given that privately sequestering photos of possibly explosive
<scientific value (even for a period of six months) is absurd,

The more important the evidence, the more important the careful
examining and study of it becomes. The Martian 'microbe rocks',
for example, were studied for years before the press conference.
Even then, it looks to most workers in related field that the
investigators may have made a mistake.

This kind of high stake science is very, very competitive. Lots
of people are just waiting to pounce on the data that you may
have spent years of you career getting. Six months exclusive
work for the people who have invested a large part of their
careers in a project doesn't seem excessive.

Clear skies,

Bob Young







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   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 >
   Apr > Apr 26

              Re: Cydonian Imperative: Mars Conspiracy Theories

From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net>
Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2000 15:45:50 -0500
Fwd Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2000 23:07:18 -0400
Subject: Re: Cydonian Imperative: Mars Conspiracy Theories


 >Cydonian Imperative: Mars Conspiracy Theories

 >From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
 >Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 21:02:33 -0700 (PDT)
 >Fwd Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2000 08:29:57 -0400
 >Subject: Cydonian Imperative: Mars Conspiracy Theories

Previously Mac wrote:

 >Mars: The Cydonian Imperative

 >4-25-2000

 >On Recent Conspiracy Theories

 >by Mac Tonnies

 >Elsewhere on the Cydonian Imperative site I concluded that the
 >only conspiracy at work concerning Cydonia re-photography was
 >one of "mutually assured ignorance." In light of Malin Space
 >Science Systems' abrupt, unannounced photo-dump of 4-5-00, I've
 >been forced to re-examine this stance. My research was aided
 >greatly by reading Dr. Stanley V. McDaniel's 'The McDaniel
 >Report', a 1993 document exposing the unsound methodology and
 >flawed epistemology that threatens the prospect of retrieving
 >high-resolution images of Cydonia in the near future.

<snipped with respect>

Hello, Mac!

I've been reading your posts for quite a while and with a great
degree of interest. But mostly, I would like to say that I find
the clarity of your writing refreshing, whether I agree with
your points of view or not. If everyone contributing to this
list presented their ideas with the same conviction and no
nonsense style that you exhibit, I would find myself using the
'delete' key far less and smiling a lot more.

Keep up the good work.

Yours truly,

Roger Evans
MovieStuff, Houston TX







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   A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
   'Its All Here In Black & White'
   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 >
   Apr > Apr 26

                 Re: Dogs, Not 'Goat Sucker' Kill Livestock

From: Todd Lemire <tlemire@home.com>
Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2000 18:22:02 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2000 23:13:12 -0400
Subject: Re: Dogs, Not 'Goat Sucker' Kill Livestock


 >Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 23:54:14 -0500
 >From: Dr. Virgilio Sanchez-Ocejo <ufomiami@prodigy.net>
 >Subject: Re: Dogs, Not 'Goat Sucker' Kill Livestock
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 19:10:55 -0400
 >>From: Todd Lemire <tlemire@home.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Dogs, Not 'Goat Sucker' Kill Livestock
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>>Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 11:29:42 -0500
 >>>From: Dr. Virgilio Sanchez-Ocejo <ufomiami@prodigy.net>
 >>>Subject: Re: Dogs, Not 'Goat Sucker' Kill Livestock
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>


 >>>Photos of the Chile footprints look to match the ones we took
 >>>here in Miami during the 'Chupacabra' attacks in 1996.

 >>Greetings Dr. Virgilio Sanchez-Ocejo,

 >>I visited the site that you reference above and I didn't notice
 >>any actual photos of Chupacabra footprints, other than the photo
 >>of the "footprint mold" you have for sale.  Where are these
 >>photos of the Chile footprints, or any others for that matter?

 ><snip>

 >Sorry, you can find the actual photos of the 'Chupacabras' at
 >Tolchile web page:

 >http://www.fortunecity.es/expertos/industrial/17/chuella.htm

 >Under ARCHIVOS X


Thank you, Doctor.

Are you in direct contact with Victor Espinoza?  Are there any
plans to publish the lab studies being done on the hair that was
found on April 21/22, 2000?

If so, will these also be published at the above referenced site
in your reply to my message?  Do you know what particular type
of tests are being done on the hair sample? DNA I assume?  Are
any samples being tested of the soil within these prints?


Thank you,

Todd Lemire
Michigan UFO CENTRAL
http://members.home.net/tlemire/UFOCENTRAL.html
--
"The reason why the flying-saucer mystery has been-to put it
mildly-so exasperating, lies in the fact that we are all blind
men, nor can we hope to meet a sighted traveler who can help us.
But perhaps it is the beginning of knowledge to recognize our
blindness."

Aim Michel - Flying Saucers and the Straight Line Mystery







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   Location: VirtuallyStrange.net > UFO > UpDates Mailing List > 2000 >
   Apr > Apr 27

                  Re: Roswell -- Filer's Files #12 -- 2000

From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2000 19:04:28 -0400 (EDT)
Fwd Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000 00:15:26 -0400
Subject: Re: Roswell -- Filer's Files #12 -- 2000


 >From: James Bond Johnson <JBONJO@aol.com>
 >Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 15:58:19 -0400 (EDT)
 >Fwd Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 16:57:56 -0400
 >Subject: Re: Filer's Files #12 -- 2000

 >>Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 23:55:46 -0500 (EST)
 >>From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@aol.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Filer's Files #12 -- 2000
 >>To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >>>From: James Bond Johnson <JBONJO@aol.com>
 >>>Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 22:22:21 -0500 (EST)
 >>>Fwd Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 04:22:06 -0500
 >>>Subject:

 >>>There was _no_ press conference in General Ramey's office! I
 >>>know, I was there taking the pictures.

 >>Were you there taking pictures for 3 hours?

 >That whole scene lasted much less than three hours.

Yes, _you_ were there much less than three hours. But the press
feeding frenzy lasted for about three hours. The original
Roswell press release went out over the AP wire at 3:26 Fort
Worth time, and the AP bulletin that the "disk" had been
identified as a weather balloon by a FW weather officer went out
at 6:29.

This was the time when press interest was at its highest. There
was some follow-up, but basically the story died with the
official weather balloon announcement at 6:30.

 >I arrived
 >after 4 p.m. The "stuff" was still being unpacked -- and from
 >all appearances never was completely unpacked since there are at
 >least two unopened packages to be seen in all the known photos.
 >Ramey had not arrived to inspect it as yet.

However, there are quotes in some newspaper stories that
indicate otherwise. One had Ramey saying that it looked like a
radar reflector and weather balloon to him and he hadn't let
anybody see or photograph it yet because of the high security.
(New York PM) That would obviously be before you got there.

In the S.F. Examiner, the reporter claimed to have been the
first to contact Ramey and this happened within an hour of the
story breaking (thus before 4:30). Ramey described a weather
balloon and radar target to him. Later a weather officer was
brought in to make an official identification.

In the N.Y. Times, the article likewise said that the story
began to change within an hour of the press release. At the
Pentagon, Gen. Vandenberg left his office at 4:15 and was
reported ducking into the Pentagon AAF press room to take
charge. Then it was reported that they burned up the phone lines
to New Mexico and Texas (Washington Post). Ramey gave a verbal
description of the debris and claimed to have seen it in his
office. Again, the time seems to have been around 4:30.

Finally, an AP bulletin at 4:53 with a Washington (not Fort
Worth) dateline had Ramey announcing that the "disk" had been
shipped to Wright Field. This time brackets when Ramey was
publicly in communication with the Pentagon press office --
before 4:53.

Back in Fort Worth, according to somebody with the same name as
yourself, editor Cullen Greene had been following the story on
the AP wire. When he learned that the "disk" was in Fort Worth
and at Ramey's, he dispatched you to cover the story. So this
must have happened _after_ 4:53, the first time the AP mentioned
Ramey's involvement on the wire.

 >I took the photos
 >and left about 4:45 p.m. as best we can reconstruct the time line.

Opinions have their place, but they need to track with factual
information. The facts indicate you showing up at Ramey's some
time after 5:00, perhaps 5:15 - 5:30.

 >Ramey must have left his office no later than 5:30 p.m. to
 >have traveled to WBAP, the radio station across Fort Worth to
 >prepare for his live broadcast re the "weather balloon" story
 >about an hour later.

There is currently no information to pin down when Ramey's
broadcast occurred, so the times are pure conjecture on your
part. Your timeline would have Ramey leaving at the same time
you would have been meeting with him in reality. In addition,
have you forgotten about weather officer Newton? He showed up
after you did and had his picture taken. Ramey obviously was not
leaving at 5:30 for anywhere.

Also, it wasn't the radio station that broke the official
weather balloon story. It was the AP wire at 6:29, though Ramey
and minions had been unofficially putting it out for the past
two hours. Besides Ramey's various statements at around 4:30
suggesting a weather balloon solution, one of Ramey's intel
officers, Col. Kirton, told the Dallas Morning News at 5:30 that
it was definitely a weather balloon.

In short, Ramey's radio broadcast was _not_ the official
announcement of the balloon identification. It was a mop-up
operation by Ramey _after_ the official ID had already been made
public.

 >>No, you were there
 >>for maybe 20 minutes. You were not a witness to what happened in
 >>Ramey's office either before or after you arrived.

 >That is true.

That is _very_ true. Yet you continue to pretend to know what
happened after you left.

 >>>There were _no_ other civilians in the room.

 >>Maybe not when you were there. But how would you know what
 >>happened _after_ you left?

 >I don't. But I also know that there is no evidence
 >that any reporters ever arrived since no one
 >else filed any direct quotes as the result of a
 >personal interview of Ramey.

First of all, there _were_ direct quotes attributed to both
Newton and Ramey in AP and UP stories the next day. The Dallas
Morning News July 9 even said that they received an AP dispatch
from Fort Worth.

Second of all, you now seem to _again_ be taking credit for the
statements of Ramey published in your paper and others. Wasn't
this supposed to be an invention of the evil Kevin Randle?
Remember Bond? When originally interviewed back in 1989 and
1990, you several times claimed credit writing the story for the
Star-Telegram (it's on tape). Later you denied it, and claimed
Randle had invented the quotes. Now you've come full circle
again. In order to make you the only reporter to have seen
Ramey, we have you stating, "no one else filed any direct quotes
as the result of a personal interview of Ramey."

Your story shifts as the whim suits you. At least your new
version is back to the one you told originally in 1989. Ramey
told you it was a weather balloon, just like he was telling
everybody else.

 >>Three witnesses (Marcel, Dubose, and Newton) all spoke of
 >>multiple reporters being there at one time.

 >I did carefully go over just that point later with
 >Newton. He cannot recall who was present and if
 >the photographer who took his picture was a
 >civilian or military (in uniform). He admits that his
 >affidavit was prepared for his signature.

I spoke to Newton only 2 weeks ago, and its obvious you are
probably spinning what he said as well. I also went over this
point very carefully with him since you had claimed in e-mail to
me that Newton did not remember reporters being there.

Well, in fact Newton was quite adamant that he remembered
reporters being there, just like he had said in other
interviews. There were at least two and maybe as many as four.
He doesn't remember who they were, but he said he remembers
being asked questions by them. He also remembered being asked to
pose for pictures, even though he doesn't remember who actually
took the photo of him.

As to the affidavit, he claimed he wrote it himself. Whether he
did or didn't is beside the point here anyway. Newton has always
claimed there were reporters present when he was in Ramey's
office. Only you seem to have Newton claiming otherwise.

 >>Somebody took Newton's picture, the two wirephoto services
 >>credited with the photo were civilian, and somebody quickly got
 >>that photo into the Philadelphia Inquirer the next morning. That
 >>suggests a least one more civilian photographer on the scene
 >>_after_ you left.

 >It may suggest but proves nothing.

All evidence points to some press showing up after you. There's
the testimony of three different witnesses including Newton,
Newton's photo, quotes from Newton and others in the AP and UP,
the Dallas Morning News saying they received an AP dispatch from
Fort Worth, the AP taking the highly unusual step of sending
wirephoto technicians to the Star Telegram, and the AP sending
reporters into the field to cover the story directly in Roswell.

What supports your contention that you were the only reporter to
see Ramey? There's nothing that I can see except your wishful
thinking.

 >>There is some other circumstantial evidence (which I've argued
 >>with you about 100 times) that also is suggestive of other
 >>reporters showing up afterwards.

 >You are good at arguing. I choose to only relate what I can
 >recall and reconstruct from the only evidence we have -- the
 >pictures.

What you recall is worthless for telling us what happened after
you left Ramey's.

If you deem your personal recollections to have value, then the
recollections of others who were also there should value as
well, i.e., if you were being consistent. Marcel, Dubose, and
Newton all said that there were several reporters there at one
time.

Given your proclamation that the photos are the "only evidence"
of what happened, then clear reference should obviously be made
to the _other_ picture, the one _not_ taken by you, the one of
Newton taken _after_ you left. That is very strong evidence of
at least one press representative showing up after you.

 >I do know that the only other Star-Telegram on duty
 >who could and would have attended any "press conference" has
 >told me over recent years that nothing like that ever happened.

Fine, nobody else from the Star-Telegram was at Ramey's. What
does this have to do with reporters from _somewhere_else_
showing up afterwards? Was the Star-Telegram the only news
outlet for a thousand miles?

Both the AP and UP had offices in Dallas, an hour's drive from
Fort Worth. UP wire chatter proves that the UP had someone in
Dallas on the story as early as 4:15.  The AP definitely knew of
Ramey's involvement by 4:53. And the AP was obviously treating
this as the big story of the day, taking the unusual step of
sending people out into the field to cover it.

According to your own memory, the AP sent wirephoto technicians
to your newspaper to get photos out as quickly as possible. That
was something unique in your experience. Why would they stop
there, and not send somebody to cover the story directly at
Ramey's? The Dallas Morning News did say they received an AP
dispatch from Fort Worth.

Over in New Mexico, the AP sent a reporter and a wirephoto
technician/photographer to Roswell from their office in
Albuquerque. That was probably unique as well. At the time, this
was a _big_ story.

 >And it is strange that any other reporters would have been
 >muzzled and not filed any stories of such electric events!

The AP and UP had there own stories of the event, including
quotes attributed to both Marcel, Ramey, and Newton.

People who report for the wire services rarely receive a byline.
E.g., the two AP people in Roswell received no byline for the
story filed or the picture of Brazel taken. Yet they were there
at Brazel's press conference held at the Roswell Daily Record.
By your logic, however, lack of a byline would somehow prove
they never were at the press conference.

 >>>Also, I was at least eight feet away from General Ramey
 >>>photographing him as he was examining the Roswell debris which
 >>>had just been delivered to his office by Major Marcel.

 >>How do you know this debris was _necessarily_ the stuff from
 >>Roswell or Mac Brazel's ranch? Why couldn't it have been
 >>substitute debris brought it for a photo op with some unwitting
 >>civilian photographer as part of a cover story?

 >I Have no idea and have never advanced any as to the etiology of
 >the debris I photographed.

Those who have followed this over the last year and a half know
that you have very definitely advocated that this was the "real"
Roswell debris brought to Fort Worth by Marcel.

E.g., look at your own statement above:  "... I was at least
eight feet away from General Ramey photographing him as he was
examining the Roswell debris which had just been delivered to
his office by Major Marcel."

With statements like that, can there be any doubt as to your
present position? Why do you play these games?

 >I just believe that is much too much
 >a Hollywood scenario that simply has _no_ basis in fact or logic
 >in the real world of "set decorating" capabilities of B-29
 >airplane drivers in 1947 -- when confronted w a totally NEW "far
 >out" problem for which they would have had _no_ training or
 >experience. Such a fantasy plot is too Randleized for me!

The military got well-practiced in the art of disinformation
during the war. This would have been no different. All we're
talking about here are the logistics of substituting a weather
balloon for the debris that Marcel brought. I think even the
Army could manage that.

There was a weather balloon/radar target demonstration at Fort
Worth AAF only a day and a half later, complete with a large
radar tracking trailer. Supposedly these items weren't there at
the base, yet there they were in fact. A photo of this
demonstration appeared in the Star-Telegram on July 11. The
negatives of the three photos taken by the S-T photographer are
in the S-T photo collection at the Univ. of Texas Arlington,
along with your photos.

So either the radar targets and other paraphenalia were already
at the base on July 8 and readily available for substitution, or
they were nearby and could be brought in on short notice. Either
way, if Ramey wanted to quickly get his hands on a radar target
for public display in place of the "real" Roswell debris, he
apparently had the means.

 >>As Gen. Dubose said in his affidavit: "The material shown in
 >>the photographs taken in Maj. Gen. Ramey's office was a weather
 >>balloon. The weather balloon explanation for the material was a
 >>cover story to divert the attention of the press."

 >As you know, most affidavits are prepared by others for signature.

If you don't like the affidavit, Dubose is also on audio and
video tape saying pretty much the same thing.

When you don't like the testimony, you seem to always dismiss it
as fraudulent. You pulled the same stunt with Newton's statement
about there being several reporters in the room, implying that
his affidavit also conveyed false information.

You also say you spoke to him and he didn't remember reporters
being there. I spoke to him, and he said exactly the opposite.
What he told me matched testimony he has always given before,
including the affidavit. When he talked to you, somehow you have
him saying something completely different.

Why is that? Could it be because you have this thing about being
the only reporter to see Ramey?

 >I am most impressed that gen dubose did not have a
 >clear recollection of the photos until shown them by Jaime
 >Shandera, who interviewed him. I certainly can relate to that
 >since I could not recall how many pictures I took or even who
 >was in them until I had an opportunity to study them again.

And when interviewed afterwards by others, Dubose said he never
saw the real debris.

<snip>

 >Well, at least we are finding agreement on some things!

Very, very little methinks.

David Rudiak








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                          UFO Buffs Dis Area 51 Pix

From: Blair Cummins <ufoblair@hotmail.com>
Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2000 19:16:59 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000 00:32:42 -0400
Subject: UFO Buffs Dis Area 51 Pix


Greetings list -

Source: Space.com

http://www.space.com/sciencefiction/phenomena/area51_ufologists_000426.html

UFO Buffs Dis Area 51 Pix

By Patrick Huyghe
Special to SPACE.com

posted: 11:43 am ET
26 April 2000

In all the hoopla over the new Area 51 satellite images
available on the Internet, those responsible for focusing the
public's attention on the mystery base in the first place -- the
UFO community -- have been largely ignored.

We've heard from the Pentagon denying ET participation in
classified US military programs, but nary a word from anyone in
the UFO community about the images that have been the talk of
the nation lately (next to those of Elin Gonzlez, of course).

Perhaps it's because most of those who began, or later fueled,
the rumors that the super-secret Air Force test site actually
hides alien technology have retreated into self-imposed
obscurity. But not all.

Concentrating on broader issues

Glenn Campbell, for one, is still around, sort of.

It was Campbell who left his programmer's job in Boston in 1993
and moved to Rachel, NV to follow up on stories he had heard
about the government's reverse engineering of alien technology
at Area 51.

 From a trailer in the desert, Campbell decried a land grab by
the Air Force that was designed to eliminate viewing sites
around the officially non-existent base. The media loved
Campbell's witty "Desert Rat" newsletter and helpful "Area-51
Viewer's Guide" and flocked to Nevada in droves to see what all
the fuss was about. Confrontations with Area 51's nasty
Wackenhut security guards made good copy.

What does Campbell have to say about the new satellite photos?

"I am 'retired' from Area 51 research and don't have any
opinions to share," he says. "I haven't even seen the new
photos."

Campbell's reply, though unexpected, is not really surprising.
He was always more anti-secrecy than pro-UFO, and once the Air
Force admitted to the site's existence, Campbell moved on to
"broader issues".

Missing data or ho-hum?

Some UFO buffs are intrigued by the new photos however.

One is John Greenwald Jr., who runs The Black Vault, a web site
which archives thousands of government documents on UFOs and
other subjects. "I think there are a lot of interesting things
in the Area 51 images," he says, "including missing data which
is rumored to be the location of S-4. I found some interesting
structures, and I think this is definitely an interesting
release. I don't think this is proof of ETs, but proof that the
government can and will lie when they want to."

But most of the UFO community seems to have developed a rather
ho-hum attitude toward the new photographs.

"It's much to do about nothing," says Peter Gersten of Citizens
Against UFO Secrecy. "Whoever or whatever runs Area 51 wanted
all that to be seen, probably a diversion and nothing of
importance there anymore. I am sure they can monitor each
satellite coming over and have the technology to relay false
pictures back -- sort of a virtual Area 51."

(In a similar vein, Popular Mechanics suggested in 1997 that
Area 51 was a has-been, and that all the really secret stuff had
been moved to "Area 6413" in White Sands, Utah. UFO buffs insist
there is no Area 6413.)

Twilight of the conspiracies

George Filer, author of the weekly Internet UFO newsletter known
as 'Filer's Files', is not impressed either.

"I didn't see anything startling in the photos," he says. " I
think most people know we have a classified facility for testing
advanced aircraft at Groom Lake. It is very likely that some of
those aircraft are circular in shape. There have been rumors of
extraterrestrials in this areas [but] I have yet to see any
proof. If I was operating a program along these lines, it seems
logical to operate from less well known areas. I would be more
excited if the satellite picked up a craft with characteristics
of a UFO."

Anyway, Filer adds, "I can get much better pictures with my
video camera mounted on a flying model aircraft."

In the end, what the pictures show probably isn't as important
as what they mean.

"The interesting thing about the new pictures," says Dennis
Stacy, editor of the MUFON UFO Journal from 1985-1997 (and my
co-author on a new book called The Field Guide to UFOs), "is
that they may well signal the beginning of the end for those who
see a vast government conspiracy lurking behind the UFO
phenomenon."

"If this increasingly Wired World -- as in the Internet and
commercial civilian "spy" satellites -- tells us anything, it's
that the power of a government or military/intelligence cabal to
control anything is slowly slipping away. Almost all information
is becoming virtually and rapidly accessible. If the government
can no longer hide its hardware, it's only a matter of time
before it will be unable to hide its software. There are too
many observers -- remote and sentient -- on and above the planet
now."

The morning after

Besides, the current photos don't show much, just some runways,
hangars, living quarters, and maybe a little deceit here and
there for those who have an eye for such things.

There are no alien craft parked in the sunlight or aliens
scurrying about. Even one-meter resolution images aren't good
enough to reveal that sort of conspiracy. For that, we'll need
Russian satellites with x-ray capabilities or better.

Maybe next year.

---

Best regards,

- Blair Cummins
ufoblair@hotmail.com








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                    Rutkowski On CTV Network - RealMedia

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>
Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000 15:18:56 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000 15:18:56 -0400
Subject: Rutkowski On CTV Network - RealMedia

Chris' media appearances are always cool, smooth and
informative. This interview is no exception. Its well worth a
look.

I've made a RealMedia file of the interview which you can
view by following the steps below:


Open your RealPlayer,

Click the 'File' menu

Then 'Open Location'

Paste the following URL into the box

http://members.xoom.com/strangedaysi/rutcanam.rm

Then click 'OK'


Note that using your browswer to try and locate the file
probably won't work - you need to follow the steps above.

ebk







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              Re: Cydonian Imperative: Mars Conspiracy Theories

From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2000 22:12:19 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000 16:28:38 -0400
Subject: Re: Cydonian Imperative: Mars Conspiracy Theories


 >Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2000 15:59:57 -0400 (EDT)
 >From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >Subject: Re: Cydonian Imperative: Mars Conspiracy Theories
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >>From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
 >>Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 21:02:33 -0700 (PDT)
 >>Fwd Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2000 08:29:57 -0400
 >>Subject: Cydonian Imperative: Mars Conspiracy Theories

<snip>

 >You ought to check up on your facts before making a claim such
 >as this. Six months is standard for exclusive use of pixs for
 >the Hubble Space Telescope, and for like data from other
 >scientific spacecraft and satellites.

You're absolutely right if the six months you refer to is
regarding Hubble, etc. But not the Mars Global Surveyor's
Cydonia pictures: you forget that NASA made a public promise to

a.) notify the public before Cydonia images were to be taken,
due to the popular and scientific interest in the region.

b.) release the images as promptly as possible. In the case at
hand (the April 5 photo-dump), Malin Space Science Systems
violated its own six-month limit with several of the images,
which were taken over a period of two entire years.

Both of these considerations were ignored. I invite
you to check the facts; these qualifications are on
record.

 >>Malin's revelation that numerous images of Cydonia have been
 >>taken in the last two years calls the integrity of MSSS and
 >>NASA into serious question.

 >Huh? What would you have said if he had never mentioned the
 >pictures? That it proved he was on the up and up? No, you
 >would have claimed that it showed some conspiracy, just as you
 >have after he mentioned the pictures.

No, I wouldn't have jumped on the conspiracy bandwagon. I've
made it clear that I don't think MSSS has any interest in
Cydonia, and I very sincerely doubt _any_ pictures would have
been taken if they hadn't been urged to by an unknown party
(certainly not the public, as NASA had ceased dialogue with SPSR
during the period in question).

And you forget the very unusual political situation that goes
hand in hand with MOC data release. Given that Malin is in a
position of power unprecedented in our space program, in that
he has ownership of the images for essentially as long as he
likes, it certainly behooves researchers to be wary. Prompt
release of Cydonia photos is a matter of scientific and ethical
integrity.



=====
Mac Tonnies
239 E. Sea
Independence, MO 65050
816-833-5910
macbot@yahoo.com
http://www.geocities.com/macbot/mtvi.html








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                            A Bit Of Alien Fun...

From: Wendy Christensen <christensen@catlas.mv.com>
Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000 01:01:11 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000 16:33:13 -0400
Subject: A Bit Of Alien Fun...


Ever wonder what a cross between a redneck and a grey alien
would be like? Now you can find out!

I think Ed it a riot! There are already several downloadable
episodes available. (Hint - after downloading and watching each
episode, pull the .swf file out of your browser cache and save it
away for later! This is one you'll want to share with your
friends! But be sure to tell them where it came from.

Note: I have _no_ connection with Ed Testy or his creators - I'm
just a fan!)

http://www.mediatrip.com/per/TV/Ed_Testy.html







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                  Re: Roswell -- Filer's Files #12 -- 2000

From: James Bond Johnson <JBONJO@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000 01:29:37 -0400 (EDT)
Fwd Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000 16:48:28 -0400
Subject: Re: Roswell -- Filer's Files #12 -- 2000


 >Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2000 19:04:28 -0400 (EDT)
 >From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@aol.com>
 >Subject: Roswell -- Filer's Files #12 -- 2000
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >>From: James Bond Johnson <JBONJO@aol.com>
 >>Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 15:58:19 -0400 (EDT)
 >>Fwd Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 16:57:56 -0400
 >>Subject: Re: Filer's Files #12 -- 2000

<snip>

 >editor Cullen Greene had been following the story on the AP
 >wire. When he learned that the "disk" was in Fort Worth and at
 >Ramey's, he dispatched you to cover the story.


David, this is some conjecture on your part. It certainly
did not happen that way. As I have consistently reported
over the years, I was dispatched to FWAAF by my city
editor on the basis of a wire service "FLASH" message
-- a tip which preceded receipt of ANY wire service
stories at the Star-Telegram.  I don't have a lot of clear
recollections of that day but I do clearly remember that
I was dispatched based on a single FLASH message and
NOT any wire service story.  It tipped that a "flying
saucer" was being flown to Fort Worth.

I also recall that I was surprised when I arrived at FWAAF and
found that the "saucer" already had arrived and was being
unpacked in General Ramey's office.. I also recall that by the
time  I returned to the city room of the Star-Telegram shortly
after 5 p.m. more information on the story had arrived and that
is why I did not write anything ... even the cut lines to the
photos, as I normally did. All I did was to expedite developing
and printing of my photos to satisfy the wirephoto team that was
waiting to transmit the pictures. I recall also that there were
several phone messages on my desk from photo outfits wanting
exclusive shots. Apparently there was only one available to be
provided ... a duplicate shot of Ramey and Dubose, which has
come to be known as the "Bettman" shot or "Ramey/Dubose Grim".


 >When originally interviewed back in 1989 and 1990, you several
 >times claimed credit writing the story for the Star-Telegram
 >(it's on tape).


David, this is entirely false! I have _never_ claimed to have
written _anything_ for the Star-Telegram about my time in
Ramey's office. That was a _misquotation_ by Randle to satisfy
his own far-out scenario.

As has been widely reported, Randle has _admitted_ in a letter
to me later that he _edited_ my statements made in a phone call
which was _not_ identified as any kind of interview and for
which _no_ permission was given for him to quote me or to record
the conversation.

Don't forget that I have _never_ written any account and have
not attempted to profit from my experiences in any way
whatsoever. So why would I ever change any story?

I only have tried to answer questions to the best of my
recollection when asked by several writers in order to hopefully
get the Roswell story correct. But for you and others to alter
the record for whatever reason certainly does not lead us in
that direction.








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                        Re: UFO Buffs Dis Area 51 Pix

From: Steven W. Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000 06:37:11 -0400
Fwd Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000 16:50:04 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO Buffs Dis Area 51 Pix


 >Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2000 19:16:59 -0700 (PDT)
 >From: Blair Cummins <ufoblair@hotmail.com>
 >Subject: UFO Buffs Dis Area 51 Pix
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

<snip>

 >"It's much to do about nothing," says Peter Gersten of Citizens
 >Against UFO Secrecy. "Whoever or whatever runs Area 51 wanted
 >all that to be seen, probably a diversion and nothing of
 >importance there anymore. I am sure they can monitor each
 >satellite coming over and have the technology to relay false
 >pictures back -- sort of a virtual Area 51."

I think it's a given that they are aware of the satellites that
pass overhead and can move sensitive material out of view as
needed. However, the concept of altering the images recorded by
the satellites to generate a "virtual Area 51" isn't one that
I've seen any reference to or technical support for. I suppose
we can all make this up as we go along, but I hate to see
statements like this that can later take on a life of their own
on the Internet.

IMO, we have enough problems with general credibility. Since the
Groom Lake facility has become common knowledge as a testing
facility and the cold war has cooled down (so to speak), it's
usefullness has become very limited.

Steve







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   Apr > Apr 27

                  Re: Roswell -- Filer's Files #12 -- 2000

From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000 08:44:29 -0400 (EDT)
Fwd Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000 16:51:49 -0400
Subject: Re: Roswell -- Filer's Files #12 -- 2000


 >From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@aol.com>
 >Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2000 19:04:28 -0400 (EDT)
 >Fwd Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000 00:15:26 -0400
 >Subject: Re: Roswell -- Filer's Files #12 -- 2000

 >>From: James Bond Johnson <JBONJO@aol.com>
 >>Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 15:58:19 -0400 (EDT)
 >>Fwd Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 16:57:56 -0400
 >>Subject: Re: Filer's Files #12 -- 2000

<snip>

 >>I took the photos
 >>and left about 4:45 p.m. as best we can reconstruct the time line.

 >Opinions have their place, but they need to track with factual
 >information. The facts indicate you showing up at Ramey's some
 >time after 5:00, perhaps 5:15 - 5:30.

I think that you're being a little harsh with this gent. After
all, it was 53 years ago.

<snip>

 >Also, it wasn't the radio station that broke the official
 >weather balloon story. It was the AP wire at 6:29

Dave:

Do you know how the AP gets much of its information? From local
affiliates who feed stuff to them, then their people take it
from there.

Clear skies,

Bob Young








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                 Re: Dogs, Not 'Goat Sucker' Kill Livestock

From: Dr. Virgilio Sanchez-Ocejo <ufomiami@prodigy.net>
Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000 10:36:59 -0500
Fwd Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000 16:54:35 -0400
Subject: Re: Dogs, Not 'Goat Sucker' Kill Livestock


 >Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2000 18:22:02 -0400
 >From: Todd Lemire <tlemire@home.com>
 >Subject: Re: Dogs, Not 'Goat Sucker' Kill Livestock
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 23:54:14 -0500
 >>From: Dr. Virgilio Sanchez-Ocejo <ufomiami@prodigy.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Dogs, Not 'Goat Sucker' Kill Livestock
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

<snip>

 >>Sorry, you can find the actual photos of the 'Chupacabras' at
 >>Tolchile web page:

 >>http://www.fortunecity.es/expertos/industrial/17/chuella.htm

 >>Under ARCHIVOS X

<snip>

 >Are you in direct contact with Victor Espinoza?  Are there any
 >plans to publish the lab studies being done on the hair that was
 >found on April 21/22, 2000?

 >If so, will these also be published at the above referenced site
 >in your reply to my message?  Do you know what particular type
 >of tests are being done on the hair sample? DNA I assume?  Are
 >any samples being tested of the soil within these prints?


No, I'm not in direct contact with Victor Espinoza but any news
that came out I will translate it and will be posted to UFO
UpDates.

Dr. Virgilio Sanchez-Ocejo
Miami UFO Center
http://www.angelfire.com/fl/ufomiami/index.html
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Corridor/1341/index.html









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                       Universe Is Flat And Expanding

From: John W. Auchettl <Praufo@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000 12:12:20 -0400 (EDT)
Fwd Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000 16:59:34 -0400
Subject: Universe Is Flat And Expanding


Oz & Asia Data Research
Phenomena Research Australia


EBK & Researchers,


Interesting news just out from NASA on the BOOMERANG project
from Antarctica.

This is a major change in direction for science as it tell us
that the universe is flat and expanding.

IMAGES At:

http://www.physics.ucsb.edu/~boomerang/press_images/index.html

The NASA Report. News - April 26, 2000.

Cosmologists Reveal First Detailed Images of Early Universe

An international team of cosmologists has released the first
detailed images of the universe in its infancy. The images
reveal the structure that existed in the universe when it was a
tiny fraction of its current age and 1,000 times smaller and
hotter than it is today. Detailed analysis of the images is
already shedding light on some of cosmology's outstanding
mysteries -- the nature of the matter and energy that dominate
intergalactic space and whether space is 'curved' or 'flat'.

The project, dubbed BOOMERANG (Balloon Observations of
Millimetric Extragalactic Radiation and Geophysics), obtained
the images using an extremely sensitive telescope suspended from
a balloon that circumnavigated the Antarctic in late 1998. The
balloon carried the telescope at an altitude of almost 37
kilometers (120,000 feet) for 10-1/2 days. The results will be
published in the April 27 issue of Nature.

Today, the universe is filled with galaxies and clusters of
galaxies. But 12-15 billion years ago, following the Big Bang,
the universe was very smooth, incredibly hot and dense. The
intense heat that filled the embryonic universe is still
detectable today as a faint glow of microwave radiation that is
visible in all directions. This radiation is known as the cosmic
microwave background (CMB).

Since the CMB was first discovered by a ground- based radio
telescope in 1965, scientists have eagerly sought to obtain
high-resolution images of this radiation. NASA's Cosmic
Background Explorer (COBE) satellite discovered the first
evidence for structures, or spatial variations, in the CMB in
1991.

The BOOMERANG images are the first to bring the CMB into sharp
focus. The images reveal hundreds of complex regions that are
visible as tiny variations -- typically only 100-millionths of a
degree Celsius (0.0001 C) -- in the temperature of the CMB. The
complex patterns visible in the images confirm predictions of
the patterns that would result from sound waves racing through
the early universe, creating the structures that by now have
evolved into giant clusters and super-clusters of galaxies.

"The structures in these images predate the first star or galaxy
in the universe," said U.S. team leader Andrew Lange of the
California Institute of Technology. "It is an incredible triumph
of modern cosmology to have predicted their basic form so
accurately."

Italian team leader Paolo deBernardis of the University of Rome
La Sapienza added: "It is really exciting to be able to see some
of the fundamental structures of the universe in their embryonic
state. The light we have detected from them has traveled across
the entire universe before reaching us, and we are perfectly
able to distinguish it from the light generated in our own
galaxy."

The BOOMERANG images cover about three percent of the sky. The
team's analysis of the size of the structures in the CMB has
produced the most precise measurements to date of the geometry
of space-time, which strongly indicate that the geometry of the
universe is flat, not curved. This result is in agreement with a
fundamental prediction of the "inflationary" theory of the
universe. This theory hypothesizes that the entire universe grew
from a tiny subatomic region during a period of violent
expansion that occurred a split second after the Big Bang. The
enormous expansion would have stretched the geometry of space
until it was flat.

NASA's National Scientific Balloon Facility was instrumental in
flying the giant helium balloon that carried the instruments
above the earth's atmosphere. The National Science Foundation
(NSF), which provides logistic support for all U.S. scientific
operations in Antarctica, facilitated the launch near McMurdo
Station and recovery of the payload after the flight. The
constant sunshine and prevailing winds at high altitudes in
Antarctica were essential to maintaining a stable long-duration
balloon flight for the BOOMERANG project. The balloon, with a
volume of 800,000 cubic meters (28 million cubic feet), carried
the two-ton telescope 8,000 km (5,000 miles) in 10 1/2 days and
landed within 50 km (31 miles) of its launch site."

� Copyright NASA

PROJECT HOME PAGE:

http://www.physics.ucsb.edu/~boomerang/

                               ****

Regards

John W. Auchettl - Director PRA Research

Dr Ron BARNETT   - Deputy Director

WEB:
http://www.praufo.web.com
http://members.aol.com/praufo/PRA1/Pra1.htm

� Copyright NASA

Phenomena Research Australia [PRA]
P.O. Box 523, Mulgrave, Victoria, Australia, 3170
Australian & Asia UFO
1961-2000 - 39 YEARS OF RESEARCH SERVICE







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                         Does Mars Have A Blue Sky?

From: John W. Auchettl <Praufo@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000 12:43:57 -0400 (EDT)
Fwd Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000 17:18:36 -0400
Subject: Does Mars Have A Blue Sky?




              Oz & ASIA DATA RESEARCH
           Phenomena Research Australia


EBK, Researchers,


Could this be right? Our mail received the following data that
was posted onto Jeff Rense-Sightings web page list.

The page is called -

'Viking Mars Lander Photo Color-Altering Revealed'

 From Kim Burrafato <lensman@stardrive.org>
 From S-P & M-M Sirag <sirag@pond.net>
Dated the 4-26-00.

Before you read the post take a look at the Mars image from
Hubble [PRC97-09a.ST Mar 20 1997].

IMAGE at:

http://oposite.stsci.edu/pubinfo/hrtemp/97-09a.jpg

Now the page location is:

http://www.sightings.com/general/color.htm

Very interesting data and may be more important than we may
expect. I would be most interested to see what others on EBK's
list think?

Fact or Fiction?

Regards

John W. Auchettl - Director PRA Research


WEB:
http://www.praufo.web.com
http://members.aol.com/praufo/PRA1/Pra1.htm

� Copyright JPL

Phenomena Research Australia [PRA]
P.O. Box 523, Mulgrave, Victoria, Australia, 3170
Australian & Asia UFO
1961-2000 - 39 YEARS OF RESEARCH SERVICE







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                        Re: UFO Buffs Dis Area 51 Pix

From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000 14:08:48 -0400 (EDT)
Fwd Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000 17:23:09 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO Buffs Dis Area 51 Pix


 >"It's much to do about nothing," says Peter Gersten of Citizens
 >Against UFO Secrecy. "Whoever or whatever runs Area 51 wanted
 >all that to be seen, probably a diversion and nothing of
 >importance there anymore. I am sure they can monitor each
 >satellite coming over and have the technology to relay false
 >pictures back -- sort of a virtual Area 51."

The truth is much easier. Simply put from the 60s, when USSR spy
sats were flying over the US, through present time when photo
recc sats from various companys/nations fly over the world, the
Dept of Defense and all military branches know in advance
(because orbits are very well known and predictable) when photo
sats are going to over fly installations.

If so called classified work is being conducted they have a 2
hour advance notification so they can put whatever is being
tested/worked on inside a building/hanger or under wraps. That
way when the sats fly over head they won't see anything. Russia
does the same thing when US sats are flying over. There has been
exceptions to this rule. During the eighties, an Intel
tasking/priorty was changed due to some brewing crisis, so they
had to change the orbit of the sat to look at as I recall it was
something in the middle east. When the sat passed over USSR it
saw gobs of stuff laying out in the open because the Russians
didn't have time to get things under wraps.

Personally I have always wanted to look at IR/thermal photos of
Area 51/S4. It would show heat sources and in theory entrances
to and perhaps the existance of underground facilities.

<snip>

 >"I didn't see anything startling in the photos," he says. " I
 >think most people know we have a classified facility for testing
 >advanced aircraft at Groom Lake. It is very likely that some of
 >those aircraft are circular in shape. There have been rumors of

Personally I didn't see anything startling, although I was
interested in FAS comparisons of the 3 sets of photos. That was
good and shows that the base is expanding and growing.

 >extraterrestrials in this areas [but] I have yet to see any
 >proof. If I was operating a program along these lines, it seems
 >logical to operate from less well known areas. I would be more
 >excited if the satellite picked up a craft with characteristics
 >of a UFO."

 >Anyway, Filer adds, "I can get much better pictures with my
 >video camera mounted on a flying model aircraft."

I would like to see George fly his video equipped model airplane
over area 51. Place would light up like a Christmas tree. :)

 >In the end, what the pictures show probably isn't as important
 >as what they mean.

 >"The interesting thing about the new pictures," says Dennis
 >Stacy, editor of the MUFON UFO Journal from 1985-1997 (and my
 >co-author on a new book called The Field Guide to UFOs), "is
 >that they may well signal the beginning of the end for those who
 >see a vast government conspiracy lurking behind the UFO
 >phenomenon."

They won't signal the beginning of the end. Just like the Mars
photos, the people will rationalize away the photos and claim
how the photos themselves are part of some bigger conspiracy to
mislead people.

 >"If this increasingly Wired World -- as in the Internet and
 >commercial civilian "spy" satellites -- tells us anything, it's
 >that the power of a government or military/intelligence cabal to
 >control anything is slowly slipping away. Almost all information
 >is becoming virtually and rapidly accessible. If the government
 >can no longer hide its hardware, it's only a matter of time
 >before it will be unable to hide its software. There are too
 >many observers -- remote and sentient -- on and above the planet
 >now."

 >The morning after

 >Besides, the current photos don't show much, just some runways,
 >hangars, living quarters, and maybe a little deceit here and
 >there for those who have an eye for such things.

Gee, I was hoping that it would show a tombstone and as we
breathlessly zoomed in on it, it might say:

"Here he lies, cold and hard, the last darn Draino drinking ET
that peed in my yard..."    :)

The photos are great for people who do photo analysis and follow
the military.

 >There are no alien craft parked in the sunlight or aliens
 >scurrying about. Even one-meter resolution images aren't good
 >enough to reveal that sort of conspiracy. For that, we'll need
 >Russian satellites with x-ray capabilities or better.

Anybody that expected that is a gulliable fool.

Cheers,
Robert







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                    Discovery Channel's - 'Giants' & UFOs

From: Jenny Randles <nufon@currantbun.com>
Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000 20:25:49 +0100
Fwd Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000 17:31:42 -0400
Subject: Discovery Channel's - 'Giants' & UFOs



Hi,

Thought you would like to see this message to me about a new
Discovery show on giants and UFO encounters that I was involved
in last year. This goes to air in the summer. It has some
interesting new data on the Voronezh case, so is worth a look.

Best wishes,


Jenny Randles

_____________


Hi Jenny:

The attached is just to let you know about the network North
American premiere of 'Giants' on the Discovery Channel on July
20. As for the U.K. showing, I'll not know about that for some
months yet but as soon as I hear I'll let you know.

You are so good you made both the N/A cut and the European cut;
so be sure to get your American friends to watch for it. Perhaps
they can put it on a website.

If anyone wants some nice bits of promo info just get them to
e-mail me and I'll be glad to forward it on.

The Voronezh sequence turned out to be quite excellent -
Discovery's comment - "compelling."

All the very best,

Alex

Hamilton-Brown Productions Ltd..

E mail address is:

ahambro@sprint.ca










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                     Re: Universe Is Flat And Expanding

From: Terry Blanton <commengr@bellsouth.net>
Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000 17:43:30 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 01:06:25 -0400
Subject: Re: Universe Is Flat And Expanding


 >Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000 12:12:20 -0400 (EDT)
 >From: John W. Auchettl <Praufo@aol.com>
 >Subject: Universe Is Flat And Expanding
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >Oz & Asia Data Research
 >Phenomena Research Australia

 >EBK & Researchers,

 >Interesting news just out from NASA on the BOOMERANG project
 >from Antarctica.

 >This is a major change in direction for science as it tell us
 >that the universe is flat and expanding.

 >IMAGES At:

 >http://www.physics.ucsb.edu/~boomerang/press_images/index.html

 >The NASA Report. News - April 26, 2000.

 >Cosmologists Reveal First Detailed Images of Early Universe

 >An international team of cosmologists has released the first
 >detailed images of the universe in its infancy. The images
 >reveal the structure that existed in the universe when it was a
 >tiny fraction of its current age and 1,000 times smaller and
 >hotter than it is today. Detailed analysis of the images is
 >already shedding light on some of cosmology's outstanding
 >mysteries -- the nature of the matter and energy that dominate
 >intergalactic space and whether space is 'curved' or 'flat'.

 >The project, dubbed BOOMERANG (Balloon Observations of
 >Millimetric Extragalactic Radiation and Geophysics), obtained
 >the images using an extremely sensitive telescope suspended from
 >a balloon that circumnavigated the Antarctic in late 1998. The
 >balloon carried the telescope at an altitude of almost 37
 >kilometers (120,000 feet) for 10-1/2 days. The results will be
 >published in the April 27 issue of Nature.

<snip>

The results are available now on the Nature web page at:

http://www.nature.com/

Regards,

Terry







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   Apr > Apr 28

              Re: Cydonian Imperative: Mars Conspiracy Theories

From: Lan Fleming <apollo18@swbell.net>
Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000 19:41:41 -0600
Fwd Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 01:12:55 -0400
Subject: Re: Cydonian Imperative: Mars Conspiracy Theories


 >Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2000 15:59:57 -0400 (EDT)
 >From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >Subject: Re: Cydonian Imperative: Mars Conspiracy Theories
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca


 >You ought to check up on your facts before making a claim such
 >as this. Six months is standard for exclusive use of pixs for
 >the Hubble Space Telescope, and for like data from other
 >scientific spacecraft and satellites.

This is an apples-to-oranges comparison. Scientists who want to
use the Hubble must submit proposals for the work and have them
approved by NASA. As far as I know, NASA doesn't pay the
approved researchers for the use of NASA's own equipment. Malin,
on the other hand, has already been paid for furnishing the
camera for the MGS.

Whereas any given HST researcher gets a 6-month proprietary
period for only a small fraction of the total data collected by
HST, Malin gets the right to sequester all of the thousands of
MGS images.

Malin has more data sequestered than he knows what to do with;
all of his data releases have been made months after the
agreed-upon schedules.

The last raw images he released were taken in March of 1999,
over a year ago. He blames labor shortages for his chronic
failure to deliver on schedule.

NASA would very likely accuse other less special contractors
making similar excuses of "low-balling" (making unrealistically
low bids for a contract to undercut bids from competitors) if
they couldn't deliver what they promised. If you think that
"mainstream" scientists find this arrangement acceptible, then
you need to read the Sept. 7, 1998 issue of Space News, where
some of them accused Malin of "data hoarding."

I've seen no improvement in Malin's performance since that time
that would diminish the annoyance of other planetary scientists.

 >>Malin's revelation that numerous images of Cydonia have been
 >>taken in the last two years calls the integrity of MSSS and NASA
 >>into serious question.

 >Huh? What would you have said if he had never mentioned the
 >pictures? That it proved he was on the up and up?

Actually, he did _not_ mention the images when he was supposed
to have done so. JPL had promised the following on their web
page at:

http://mpfwww.jpl.nasa.gov/mgs/cydonia.html


POSITION ON RE-PHOTOGRAPHING THE CYDONIA REGION

... The spacecraft will fly directly over the Cydonia region,
where enigmatic features were observed in the Viking mission, a
few times during its mapping mission. The Mars Global Surveyor
project will announce these imaging opportunities in advance and
will post the resultant images on the Internet."

Malin violated this "position" by withholding Cydonia images for
months. He never announced imaging opportunities in advance and
he did not release any of them immediately. Violations of
explicitly stated promises are certainly reasonable grounds for
suspicion.

 >No, you
 >would have claimed that it showed some conspiracy, just as you
 >have after he mentioned the pictures.

I don't recall that Mac Tonnies "claimed" there was a
conspiracy. Why is it that anyone who points out clear evidence
of deceptions by government agencies is attacked in this way?

If you really need to accuse someone of claiming conspiracies, then let
me help:

The absurdly misprocessed 'Catbox' enhancement of the MGS Face
image was either a deliberate fraud or the work of incompetents
at the JPL Multimission Image Processing Lab where it was
produced. JPL's Public Information Office released this
ridiculous 'enhancement' just in time for the evening news on
April 6, the day after the image was taken.

JPL and MSSS employees rushed out to give their opinions on the
Face, bolstered by the phony enhancement. This was clearly an
attempt to mislead the public and it was coordinated among
several people.

I would call that a conspiracy, even if it was engineered by a
small group of scientists because they really hate it that
people are interested in the Face rather than being the work of
the Illuminati or whatever.

The fact that the JPL Oversight Committee is headed by a former
director of the CIA does make me wonder if it goes beyond a
small group, however.








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                           FOX's 'Best UFO Videos'

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000 22:28:23 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 01:18:26 -0400
Subject: FOX's 'Best UFO Videos'


Since I appeared in th show talking about the "object" over NYC
near the Twin Trade towers (video by Italian tourists) I should
point out wat ended up on the cutting room floor: my _guess_ is
that the tourist was videotaping through a window in an
excursion boat in the Hudson(?) River and the UFO was a
reflection of a light behind the cameraman and reflected in the
window.

Regarding the most "spectacular" video that started off the show
and was repeated 'ad infinite ums' (not good fo the tummy),
another sequence on the cutting room floor has me pointing out
with some emphasis that if it had been a real, large UFO
hovering there the word would have gotten out to the crowd of a
thousand(?) at the Burning Man Festival last September, and
there would have been a _hush_ settling over the crowd and no
one would be paying attention to what was happening on the
stage... instead of what actually happened (singing, dancing,
screaming yelling, stage show... but no apparent interest in the
'fascinating UFO'). Another thing I pointed out, which was
echoed in the script read by Frakes (written by Kiviat) is that
the festival was a gigantic art festival (which features a
burning-man effigy) and lots of people had constructed artistic
displays of various types.

All in all, however, Robert Kiviat is to be congratulated for
having done what perhaps has never been done before: starting
from nearly ground zero, managing to complete two documentaries
(Ghosts and UFOs) in one month!








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                       Re: Does Mars Have A Blue Sky?

From: Sharon Kardol <sharon@hotmix.com.au>
Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 10:43:09 +0800
Fwd Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 01:21:41 -0400
Subject: Re: Does Mars Have A Blue Sky?


 >Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000 12:43:57 -0400 (EDT)
 >From: John W. Auchettl <Praufo@aol.com>
 >Subject: Does Mars Have A Blue Sky?
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

<snip>

 >The page is called -

 >'Viking Mars Lander Photo Color-Altering Revealed'

<snip>

 >Fact or Fiction?

 >Regards

 >John W. Auchettl - Director PRA Research

Hi John,

This grabbed my attention as I remeber hearing about this a few
months ago. I was following the story with reserved judgement
right up to the last comment which brings up the wackiest theory
I've ever heard, that we've never actually visited the red (or
is that blue now?) planet at all and just staged the photos
<yawn>.

Sure makes it hard to take any of this seriously.

Cheers
Sharon K







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                  Re: Discovery Channel's - 'Giants' & UFOs

From: Sharon Kardol <sharon@hotmix.com.au>
Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 10:48:00 +0800
Fwd Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 01:25:29 -0400
Subject: Re: Discovery Channel's - 'Giants' & UFOs

 >Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000 20:25:49 +0100
 >From: Jenny Randles <nufon@currantbun.com>
 >Subject: Discovery Channel's - 'Giants' & UFOs
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >Hi,

 >Thought you would like to see this message to me about a new
 >Discovery show on giants and UFO encounters that I was involved
 >in last year.

<snip>

Hi Jenny, just curious - what do you mean by 'Giants'? And what
would the relationship be with UFO encounters?

Cheers
Sharon







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                  Re: Discovery Channel's - 'Giants' & UFOs

From: Jenny Randles <nufon@currantbun.com>
Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 11:12:07 +0100
Fwd Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 09:13:39 -0400
Subject: Re: Discovery Channel's - 'Giants' & UFOs


 >Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 10:48:00 +0800
 >From: Sharon Kardol <sharon@hotmix.com.au>
 >Subject: Re: Discovery Channel's - 'Giants' & UFOs
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000 20:25:49 +0100
 >>From: Jenny Randles <nufon@currantbun.com>
 >>Subject: Discovery Channel's - 'Giants' & UFOs
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >Hi Jenny, just curious - what do you mean by 'Giants'? And what
 >would the relationship be with UFO encounters?

Hi,

Well, this isn't my programme. I was just a little involved in
the content. But as I understand it the crew flew to Isreal
because of a wave of sightings there in which giant entities
were seen during close encounters. You may have heard about
these incidents. They did make some reports in the UK. This
created major local interest because of the 'there were giants
on this earth' line from the Bible and a suspected tie-in by a
few researchers.

The production company came to me asking me to research and
comment upon other UFO related sightings of giant entities,
which I did.

They also went to Eastern Europe and gained exclusive footage on
the famous Voronezh case in which giant entities were seen in a
park beside a UFO. From what I have seen of this material (I did
a voice over to put it in context as Peter Hough and I had
chased up the case at the time when we writing our book 'Looking
for the Aliens') there is some original material and it adds a
few new twists to the case.

So, the idea of the programme is to look at the legends and
myths about giants on earth and link them to UFO cases in which
giant entities have been seen in modern times.

Thats as I understand it, but I guess we'll all just have to
wait and see when the prpogramme airs.

I gather that a book on the subject based on the teams research
is to appear at some point, probably via the producers and I
think in Canada initially. But I dont have any other details.

Hope this helps.

Best wishes,

Jenny Randles








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   Apr > Apr 28

                         Re: FOX's 'Best UFO Videos'

From: Steven W. Kaeser <steve@konsulting.com>
Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 06:17:39 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 09:17:01 -0400
Subject: Re: FOX's 'Best UFO Videos'


 >Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000 22:28:23 -0400
 >From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac@compuserve.com>
 >Subject: FOX's 'Best UFO Videos'
 >To: updates <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >Since I appeared in th show talking about the "object" over NYC
 >near the Twin Trade towers (video by Italian tourists) I should
 >point out wat ended up on the cutting room floor: my _guess_ is
 >that the tourist was videotaping through a window in an
 >excursion boat in the Hudson(?) River and the UFO was a
 >reflection of a light behind the cameraman and reflected in the
 >window.

<snip>

I found it to be an interesting presentation, but wish they had
spent more time on the cases that were so obviously explainable.
Of course, that's a viewpoint that I offer and others may have
found the New York "object" more convincing. Like the Mexico
City footage, one can only wonder why thousands of other
witnesses on the ground hadn't already come forward and
mentioned it to the tabloids, which would have eagerly printed
their stories.

I was much more interested in some of the NASA footage, which
doesn't seem to have an easy explanation.

 >All in all, however, Robert Kiviat is to be congratulated for
 >having done what perhaps has never been done before: starting
 >from nearly ground zero, managing to complete two documentaries
 >(Ghosts and UFOs) in one month!

If they had promoted the programs better I would have gotten
them both on tape. I happened to catch the last five minutes of
the first show and will have to wait for them to repeat it. I'm
glad to see that Kiviat hasn't faded from the scene, and find it
interesting that Jonathan Frakes has become his de facto
"paranormal" narrator (there goes his Commission in the next
Trek franchise . . .<g>).

Bruce, I wish my schedule allowed me to attend the MUFON event
you've organized near College Park, MD next weekend. I suspect
this show will spark some discussion at the event and I'll have
to wait to hear about it second hand.

Steve









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   Apr > Apr 28

                       Re: Does Mars Have A Blue Sky?

From: John W. Auchettl <Praufo@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 09:07:41 -0400 (EDT)
Fwd Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 09:27:47 -0400
Subject: Re: Does Mars Have A Blue Sky?


 >Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 10:43:09 +0800
 >From: Sharon Kardol <sharon@hotmix.com.au>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>
 >Subject: Re: Does Mars Have A Blue Sky?


 >>Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000 12:43:57 -0400 (EDT)
 >>From: John W. Auchettl <Praufo@aol.com>
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>
 >>Subject: Does Mars Have A Blue Sky?


Hi Sharon, EBK and All,


Borrowing heavily from or hosts goodwill, this non-ufology topic
(thanks Errol) has produced a rush of data, but no happy
solution, as yet.

 >This grabbed my attention as I remeber hearing about
 >this a few months ago. I was following the story with
 >reserved judgement right up to the last comment which
 >brings up the wackiest theory..

Your right Sharon, some of the "wackiest theory" are just that.
Self-evident. But that's the richness of the debate - I guess.
The original story line seems Ok. I think?

Theory aside and speculation on cover-ups etc - the subject
seems to have touched a nerve or is it that ufologist have
antenna (Martian antenna) for odd data sets, set-up, fabrication
- stop that now!

The general thrust in all our e-mail (sorted by our trusted
e-mail expert-Karen L) produced 5 discussion threads:


- A Mind Set Problem

Who or what made us (?) think that Mars was a "dead red planet".
Why is it still sold that way? Or - How did we miss that data?


- Technical Friction

Why are some Hubble and Viking NASA citizens unhappy about the
observations and are in dispute?


- Was The Viking Camera Wrong

If the original Viking 1 Lander (July 20, 1976 touched down)
images were "blue" then why change it to that "Red" - Strangely
enough even the technical data said the camera setting were ok.

This was the biggest return. I think just about everyone
remembers that NASA image problem. This may have set/forced us
into believing things were "red sky" & "dead planet".


- The Text Book May Be Wrong

That "blue" atmosphere is a lot higher than in the current
textbooks.


- Was It Dust Or Carbon Dioxide Making The Blue Sky

The polar caps are very big, and are primarily carbon dioxide
(CO2) frost, or "dry ice", that has condensed out of the
atmosphere.



And so on.... a lot more questions - so let's 'bail out' while
we're alive.

However, before I end this post, link onto these 3 images:


[1]. A Very Blue Sky. By Hubble.

http://www.solarviews.com/r/mars/mars3.jpg

http://cass.jsc.nasa.gov/images/sred2/sred2_S03.gif

Space Telescope View of Mars (0�N, 270�W)
(Hubble Space Telescope image = STScI-PR95-17)


[2]. Frost And Blue sky? By VIKING.

http://cass.jsc.nasa.gov/images/sred2/sred2_S30.gif

Frost at the Viking 2 Lander (48�N, 226�W)
(Viking Lander image = 21I093)

"Viking Lander 2 is far enough north that frost deposits may
form on the surface during winter. This image, taken in May
1979, shows a thin, white layer of water frost, estimated to be
only micrometers (1 micrometer = 0.001 millimetres) thick,
covering parts of the surface".


[3]. A Very Big Cap & Atmospheric Movement.
That's a large mass of CO2.

http://cass.jsc.nasa.gov/images/sred2/sred2_S20.gif

Seasonal Evolution of the North Polar Cap (90�N)
(Image = PRC97-15b. ST Scl OPO. May 20 1997)


                         ***

Still interesting.

Regards

John W. Auchettl - Director PRA Research

� Images Copyright NASA/JPL

Phenomena Research Australia [PRA]
P.O. Box 523, Mulgrave, Victoria, Australia, 3170
Australian & Asia UFO
1961-2000 - 39 YEARS OF RESEARCH SERVICE








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   Apr > Apr 28

                      New Book: The Field Guide To UFOs

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto
Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 10:19:07 -0400
Fwd Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 10:19:07 -0400
Subject: New Book: The Field Guide To UFOs



Source: http://www.anomalist.com/books/fgufo.html

The Field Guide to UFOs

A Classification Of Various
Unidentified Aerial Phenomena
Based On Eyewitness Accounts

by

Dennis Stacy
and
Patrick Huyghe

Illustrations by Harry Trumbore


Quill; ISBN 0380802651. Paperback: 5-5/16 X 8;
192 pages; fully illustrated; $13.00;$19.95(CAN)


The classic UFO--shaped like a flying saucer with a dome on
top--in reality represents but a small fraction of the mystery
aerial objects people have reported seeing over the past half
century or so. Eyewitnesses around the world actually describe a
bewildering array of forms in flight.

Here, for the first time, is a comprehensive look at the
physical structure of UFOs, a book devoted to identifying and
categorizing the dozens of different shapes the UFO phenomenon
exhibits globally. From double-ringed to triangle-shaped UFOs,
from saucers to cigar-shaped craft--and more--this book
documents each variant, describes often extraordinary
encounters, and even takes the extra step of offering the
skeptic's explanation for some of the sightnings.

What can the shape of a UFO tell us? In some cases, the shape of
the object provides a strong clue to its origin. But in all
cases, the classification system developed in this book shows
quite clearly that there is no single solution to the UFO
mystery--there are most likely many answers. And some surprises
too.

� 2000 by Harry Trumbore


 From the Introduction

The late J. Allen Hynek, Air Force astronomy consultant for
Project Blue Book and founder of the Center for UFO Studies that
now bears his name, once referred to the sheer number of UFO
reports as an "embarrassment of riches." The numbers would
certainly seem to bear him out. One Gallup public opinion poll
revealed that nine percent of the adult American population,
equivalent to about 11 million people at the time, had seen what
they thought was a UFO. Extrapolated worldwide and over time,
the number of UFO witnesses from the last half century alone
easily extends to the tens, if not hundreds, of millions--only a
minuscule fraction of which are ever reported to the military,
law enforcement officials, or civilian UFO research
organizations. The most commonly reported reason for failing to
make a report public is fear of ridicule from one's family,
friends, neighbors, colleagues.

This inherent embarrassment of numbers includes an embarrassment
of forms as well. While the general public perceives flying
saucers and Unidentified Flying Objects as one and the same, the
reports paint a dramatically different picture. Indeed, the
classic "flying saucer"--imagine a spinning, discus-shaped
object with a smaller, rounded dome or canopy in the center--is
on a par with such Hollywood stereotypes as the prostitute with
a heart of gold and the stolid, solitary gunslinger. In reality,
so-called "daylight discs," as they are referred to by
ufologists (those who study UFOs as a hobby or avocation),
constitute but a small percentage of all UFOs reported. The
overwhelming majority of UFO reports belong to what Hynek called
"nocturnal lights," those amorphous blobs of variously colored
lights seen singly or in formation against the dark background
of the night.

Obviously, if we had had, say, 37 million reports of the same
object since Kenneth Arnold's landmark 1947 sighting, we would
all be more or less agreed that an invasion of advanced and
presumably extraterrestrial technology was now well under way.
But the fact of the matter is that UFOs are routinely reported
in a vastly bewildering variety of shapes, forms, and behavior.
It's one thing to contemplate that we're being visited on a
regular, if not daily basis, by extraterrestrial visitors. But
it's quite another to posit the position that planet Earth
represents little more than a convenient truck stop on some
intergalactic highway, a brief stopover between one edge of the
Milky Way and the other for every passing vehicle of alien
manufacture and its occupants.

� 2000 by Dennis Stacy and Patrick Huyghe


About the Authors

Dennis Stacy was the editor of the monthly Mufon UFO Journal
from 1985 to 1997. He received the 1995 Donald E. Keyhoe
Journalism Award for a six-part series on UFOs that appeared in
Omni. He is also the author of The Marfa Lights: A Viewer's
Guide, and, most recently, he coedited UFOs 1947-1997: Fifty
Years of Flying Saucers with Hilary Evans.

Patrick Huyghe is the author of the first volume in this series,
The Field Guide to Extraterrestrials (Avon Books, 1996). His
articles on UFOs have appeared in the New York Times, Omni, and
other magazines. With Dennis Stacy, he also edits and publishes
The Anomalist, a print and web-based journal that explores the
mysteries of science, history, and nature.









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   Apr > Apr 28

                       Re: Does Mars Have A Blue Sky?

From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 01:59:46 -0400 (EDT)
Fwd Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 19:59:58 -0400
Subject: Re: Does Mars Have A Blue Sky?


 >From: John W. Auchettl <Praufo@aol.com>
 >Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000 12:43:57 -0400 (EDT)
 >Fwd Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000 17:18:36 -0400
 >Subject: Does Mars Have A Blue Sky?
 >'Viking Mars Lander Photo Color-Altering Revealed'

<snip>

 >Before you read the post take a look at the Mars image from.
 >Hubble [PRC97-09a.ST Mar 20 1997]. IMAGE at:
 >http://oposite.stsci.edu/pubinfo/hrtemp/97-09a.jpg

 >Now the page location is:
 >http://www.sightings.com/general/color.htm

John, List:

I think we are talking about a number of separate things, here,
each one of which could be true: a) blue limb to Mars, as shown
in Hubble pix; b) reddish or pink sky as seen from Viking
landers and Pathfinder; c) color of rocks at the three landing
sites.

The blue limb haze seen in the Hubbell pix is certainly true. I
have done a lot of observing of Mars with color filters and
medium sized (10, 12.5 and 17") amateur telescopes since 1971.
Blue filters are used to observe upper atmospheric clouds. For
example, a Wratten #80A light blue filter will usually show a
bright limb to the planet, similar to what shows in the Hubbell
pix.

On the other hand, filters such as Wratten #21 Orange or #25 Red
will show surface features and dust clouds, which are at lower
altitudes and near the surface. An analogy is the blue limb
photographed from Earth orbit which does not rule out red
sunsets as seen from the surface.

The color of the rocks at the Viking I site is another matter.
Mars has a lot of Iron in its rocks and soil, if fact the planet
can be said to be literally rusting away. Its yellowish or
orange color can even be seen visually. In a telescope without
filters the surface seems to be a salmon color. Look at the
surface color as revealed in the Hubbell pix.

If you are suggesting that the first Viking picture was correct
and that all subsequent Mars surface pixs have been doctored to
cover up the existence of greenish rocks, this is wrong.
Actually the first picture is the one which was "doctored", but
in haste. The truth is that they really wanted _blue_ skies.
This is a 24-year old, long known error.

I think that the promotion of this idea by two Mars Face
proponents tells us a lot. This would also be another example of
evidence of life on Mars, which has been long known but which
they think that they have discovered, and which has been covered
up by NASA in every subsequent picture.

Clear skies,

Bob Young







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              Re: Cydonian Imperative: Mars Conspiracy Theories

From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 11:10:19 -0400 (EDT)
Fwd Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 20:21:10 -0400
Subject: Re: Cydonian Imperative: Mars Conspiracy Theories


 >From: Lan Fleming <apollo18@swbell.net>
 >Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000 19:41:41 -0600
 >Fwd Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 01:12:55 -0400
 >Subject: Re: Cydonian Imperative: Mars Conspiracy Theories

<snip>

 >http://mpfwww.jpl.nasa.gov/mgs/cydonia.html

 >POSITION ON RE-PHOTOGRAPHING THE CYDONIA REGION

 >... The spacecraft will fly directly over the Cydonia region,
 >where enigmatic features were observed in the Viking mission, a
 >few times during its mapping mission. The Mars Global Surveyor
 >project will announce these imaging opportunities in advance and
 >will post the resultant images on the Internet."

Lan, list:

Thanks for providing this.

 >If you really need to accuse someone of claiming conspiracies, then let
 >me help:

 >The absurdly misprocessed 'Catbox' enhancement of the MGS Face
 >image was either a deliberate fraud or the work of incompetents
 >at the JPL Multimission Image Processing Lab where it was
 >produced. JPL's Public Information Office released this
 >ridiculous 'enhancement' just in time for the evening news on
 >April 6, the day after the image was taken.

 >JPL and MSSS employees rushed out to give their opinions on the
 >Face, bolstered by the phony enhancement. This was clearly an
 >attempt to mislead the public and it was coordinated among
 >several people.

 >I would call that a conspiracy, even if it was engineered by a
 >small group of scientists because they really hate it that
 >people are interested in the Face

You may be right about this.

 >The fact that the JPL Oversight Committee is headed by a former
 >director of the CIA does make me wonder if it goes beyond a
 >small group, however.

Yes, and a former CIA Director was President, and his son is now
running. Conspiracy mongering always goes on and on and on. Do
you think that it is just possible that scientists who have
spent and invested a large portion of their professional lives
on what they think (rightly, I believe) to be important work,
and the PR people working with them, just get down right
frustrated when the popular press and much of the public gets ga
ga over the latest alien tales?

They are human beings. Science is a human interprise. Egos,
stupid moves and just plain mistakes always happen, while
conspiracies don't always happen - or are you among those who
think that there is always a conspiracy involved?

Clear skies,

Bob Young









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                      'Flying Saucers' Landing in Egypt

From: Steven L. Wilson Sr <Ndunlks@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 13:13:02 -0400 (EDT)
Fwd Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 20:26:58 -0400
Subject: 'Flying Saucers' Landing in Egypt


From: AOLNews@aol.com
Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 12:12:13 EDT
Subject: Flying Saucers Landing in Egypt


Flying Saucers Landing in Egypt

LEESBURG, Fla., April 28 /PRNewswire/ -- Flying Saucers Gourmet
Coffee & Tea will be landing their sci-fi themed cafe's in
Egypt's two major markets, Cairo and Alexandria.  These will be
the first middle-eastern stores for Flying Saucers.

Flying Saucers has been an internet company since 1994, selling
gourmet coffee & tea in space-ship packaging, science fiction
merchandise, toys, novelties, gifts, t-shirts, posters, mugs,
books, coffee equipment for commercial and home use.  In 1996
Flying Saucers began licensing its unique concept to those who
wanted to be in the coffee business for themselves.  Now that
Flying Saucers is the #1 coffee site on the internet, they are
getting inquiries from potential licensees from around the globe
24 hours a day, 7 days a week.

Rick Austin, CEO of Flying Saucers, said, "The contact initially
came from her Royal Highness, Dahlia Zamel, in Egypt.  She was
surfing the internet and loved our web site so much that she
felt compelled to send us her compliments. After a few e-mails
back and forth, she asked if we would mind if she had one of her
friends contact us about setting up Flying Saucers Sci-fi Cafes
in Egypt.  That's when I realized the true power of the internet
and its ability to reach people we would otherwise never have
had access to."

Flying Saucers projects that they will have 2000 franchises
within the next 3-5 years.

Flying Saucers Gourmet Coffee & Tea's corporate headquarters is
currently moving to Central Florida, and will soon be seen
throughout the world.

To find out more about business opportunities with Flying
Saucers Gourmet Coffee & Tea, go to www.FlyingSaucers.com .







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   Apr > Apr 29

              Re: Cydonian Imperative: Mars Conspiracy Theories

From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net>
Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 19:55:53 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 00:07:11 -0400
Subject: Re: Cydonian Imperative: Mars Conspiracy Theories


 >From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 11:10:19 -0400 (EDT)
 >Fwd Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 20:21:10 -0400
 >Subject: Re: Cydonian Imperative: Mars Conspiracy Theories

 >>From: Lan Fleming <apollo18@swbell.net>
 >>Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000 19:41:41 -0600
 >>Fwd Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 01:12:55 -0400
 >>Subject: Re: Cydonian Imperative: Mars Conspiracy Theories

Previously, Lan wrote:

 >>The fact that the JPL Oversight Committee is headed by a former
 >>director of the CIA does make me wonder if it goes beyond a
 >>small group, however.

Bob replied:

 >Yes, and a former CIA Director was President, and his son is now
 >running. Conspiracy mongering always goes on and on and on.

Hi, Bob!

(Actually, nothing short of a conspiracy could possibly get
someone as unqualified as George Jr. into the oval office....)

Actually, I've always felt that Pappa Bush's former CIA
connection was more personal than most people might realize.
After all, Bush was former head of the CIA; J. Edgar Hoover was
the head of the FBI and liked to dress in drag, we are told.
Don't you think it odd that Barbara Bush looks a lot like J.
Edgar Hoover in drag? My guess is that George and Barb met at
some sort of "spy mixer" within the the intelligence community
and it was love at first sight. And before you think that I'm
concocting a conspiracy, here, consider the fact that Mrs. Bush
and Hoover were _never_ photographed together.... ;)

Continuing, Bob wrote:


 >They are human beings. Science is a human interprise. Egos,
 >stupid moves and just plain mistakes always happen, while
 >conspiracies don't always happen - or are you among those who
 >think that there is always a conspiracy involved?

I don't know about Lan, Bob. But are you among those that think
there is _never_ a conspiracy involved?


Partly dreary skies,

Roger








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              Re: Cydonian Imperative: Mars Conspiracy Theories

From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 18:19:44 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 00:10:04 -0400
Subject: Re: Cydonian Imperative: Mars Conspiracy Theories


 >Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 11:10:19 -0400 (EDT)
 >From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >Subject: Re: Cydonian Imperative: Mars Conspiracy
 >Theories

 >Yes, and a former CIA Director was President, and his son is
 >now running. Conspiracy mongering always goes on and on and
 >on. Do you think that it is just possible that scientists who
 >have spent and invested a large portion of their professional
 >lives on what they think (rightly, I believe) to be important
 >work, and the PR people working with them, just get down right
 >frustrated when the popular press and much of the public gets
 >ga ga over the latest alien tales?

 >They are human beings. Science is a human interprise. Egos,
 >stupid moves and just plain mistakes always happen, while
 >conspiracies don't always happen - or are you among those who
 >think that there is always a conspiracy involved?

I think Lan Fleming already answered your question in the last
post. Speaking personally, I agree with you absolutely that
science is fraught with a great deal of ego and that some of the
unfortunate aftereffect of this can be misidentified as a
"conspiracy."

But the Mars situation is tantalizingly different: there is
documented evidence that would certainly give any reasonable
person pause before dismissing the possibility of a
"conpsiracy"--even if the range of the conspiracy is, as Lan
illustated, simply a handful of scientists intentionally
overcontrasting a picture of the Face because anomaly research
isn't their forte and they see no reason to dig any further.

"Conpsiracy" doesn't entail a huge, elaborate "X-Files"
scenario. Rather, I think what we are observing in MSSS/JPL's
odd reticence to rephotograph Cydonia--and then publically
admitting that they were liars with no corrective measures
forthcoming--might be much more subtle. Then again, I also agree
with Lan that this _could_ run deeper. That doesn't make me a
"conspiracy nut," although, technically, it might me a
conspiracy "theorist." So be it.

In my posts on this subject I've tried to stick to what is
known. In this case, what is known happens to be rather
disturbing, from both scientific and ethical perspectives--not
to mention legal. Does this mean I should ignore it because
addressing it as such makes me subject to accusations of being a
less-than-erudite conspiracy monger? I find your reasoning
lacking.



=====
Mac Tonnies
239 E. Sea
Independence, MO 65050
816-833-5910
macbot@yahoo.com
http://www.geocities.com/macbot/mtvi.html









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              Re: Cydonian Imperative: Mars Conspiracy Theories

From: Joe Murgia <Ufojoe1@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 22:33:53 -0400 (EDT)
Fwd Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 00:12:12 -0400
Subject: Re: Cydonian Imperative: Mars Conspiracy Theories


 >Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 11:10:19 -0400 (EDT)
 >From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >Subject: Re: Cydonian Imperative: Mars Conspiracy Theories
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca


 >Yes, and a former CIA Director was President, and his son is now
 >running. Conspiracy mongering always goes on and on and on. Do
 >you think that it is just possible that scientists who have
 >spent and invested a large portion of their professional lives
 >on what they think (rightly, I believe) to be important work,
 >and the PR people working with them, just get down right
 >frustrated when the popular press and much of the public gets ga
 >ga over the latest alien tales?

Bob,

Of course "we" think it is possible. It's also possible that
somebody doesn't want us to know something about Mars. Don't you
agree? Read McDaniel's book. It made me wonder what was really
going on with NASA and why they lied over and over to Congress.

I don't normally jump to a conspiracy theory as the answer but
the way Cydonia has been handled has made me keep my eyes and
mind open.

 >They are human beings. Science is a human interprise. Egos,
 >stupid moves and just plain mistakes always happen, while
 >conspiracies don't always happen - or are you among those who
 >think that there is always a conspiracy involved?

 >Clear skies,

 >Bob Young

The people, Mac and the others, that have reported on this Malin
controversy seem, to me at least, to have given Malin and JPL
every opportunity to prove that they are an open, honest agency.
However, some of their actions make all of us really suspicious.

I think I speak for most of us when I say we don't
automatically think conspiracy when things don't go our way. But
if the evidence points that way, we have to at least consider
it.

Mistakes happen but how many should we watch until we start to
question things?

Joe in Tampa







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                       Re: Does Mars Have A Blue Sky?

From: Lan Fleming <apollo18@swbell.net>
Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 20:42:05 -0600
Fwd Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 00:30:11 -0400
Subject: Re: Does Mars Have A Blue Sky?


 >Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 01:59:46 -0400 (EDT)
 >From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >Subject: Does Mars Have A Blue Sky?
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >I think we are talking about a number of separate things, here,
 >each one of which could be true: a) blue limb to Mars, as shown
 >in Hubble pix; b) reddish or pink sky as seen from Viking
 >landers and Pathfinder; c) color of rocks at the three landing
 >sites.

Perhaps, but the Hubble scientists predicted that Pathfinder
would see a blue sky from its vantage point on the surface
unless there was a dust storm. There were no dust storms, but
the skies were not blue in the Pathfinder images as released.
There is clearly some disagreement among NASA scientists here.

 >If you are suggesting that the first Viking picture was correct
 >and that all subsequent Mars surface pixs have been doctored to
 >cover up the existence of greenish rocks, this is wrong.

There was more than one picture. The blue-sky image referenced
by John W. Auchettl at:

http://cass.jsc.nasa.gov/images/sred2/sred2_S30.gif

is from the Viking 2 lander and was taken in 1979. Ron Levin's
account of seeing the color of an image being abruptly changed
on the monitors at JPL concerned the first color image from the
Viking 1 lander on July 21, 1976. Whether the sky is blue or red
depends, of course, on how you process the raw data, but they
seem to think it ought to be blue at JSC.

 >Actually the first picture is the one which was "doctored", but
 >in haste. The truth is that they really wanted _blue_ skies.
 >This is a 24-year old, long known error.

That's one version of the story. Levin's version differs
considerably from that account. Thomas Mutch, the Viking imaging
team leader, told a different story. In fact, he tells two
different versions in the same book, 'On Mars'.

He is quoted, before realizing his 'mistake', as at first
enthusing:


"Look at that sky - light blue - reddish hue [to the surface,
presumably]. It's a very exciting thing to see this distinct
reddish coloration to the surface. These are subtle hues. It's a
geological scene, a natural scene. Even in the deserts here on
Earth the reds are not crayon reds as painted by a child. This
is a surprisingly terrestrial-like desert scene."

But in a later paragraph, he says:

"Qualitative tests indicated that simple normalization of the
voltages for the three color channels was sufficient to produce
reasonable color images. In making that judgment our attention
was generally directed to saturated colors in the natural scene
and test target."

When the first color data were received, Mutch's specialists
used the same normalization techniques to calibrate the image.

"The result was surprising and disquieting. The entire scene,
ground and atmosphere alike, was bathed in a reddish glow.
Unwilling to commit ourselves publicly to this provocative
display, we adjusted the parameters in the calibration program
until the sky came out a neutral gray." The soil and rocks
demonstrated good contrast, and the colors 'seemed reasonable'."
This was the picture released eight hours later. "But in our
chagrin," Mutch recalled, "the sky took on a bluish hue during
reconstruction and photo-reproduction. The media representatives
were delighted with the Earth-like colors of the scene."


One is left to wonder how Dr. Mutch could be "excited" about an
image and "chagrined" by it at the same time. He said he was
chagrined that the image didn't turn out the way he had intended
after his careful calibrations. Levin says there were no careful
calibrations; a technician just changed the color settings on
the TVs at JPL two hours after the image was first displayed.

I really don't know what color Mars' sky really is, but JPL
seems to have settled again on the neutral gray preferred by
Mutch. That's what JPL's Golumbek said the Pathfinder images
showed in a recent coffee table book about Mars put out by
National Geographic - after JPL released numerous pink sky
images.

 >I think that the promotion of this idea by two Mars Face
 >proponents tells us a lot.

Hmmm. Vince DiPietro would be one of them. I guess the other
would be me. The fact that you need to get into personalities
tells us a lot, too. Actually, the argument that Mars' sky is
blue is "promoted" (to use your buzz word) by Gil Levin,
principal investigator of the Viking labeled release biology
experiments on the Viking landers and his son Ron, professor of
physics at MIT and the person who gave the first-hand account of
how the first Viking image was altered. Neither one is a "Mars
Face proponent."








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              Re: Cydonian Imperative: Mars Conspiracy Theories

From: Lan Fleming <apollo18@swbell.net>
Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 20:46:24 -0600
Fwd Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 00:32:05 -0400
Subject: Re: Cydonian Imperative: Mars Conspiracy Theories


 >Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 11:10:19 -0400 (EDT)
 >From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >Subject: Re: Cydonian Imperative: Mars Conspiracy Theories
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >They are human beings. Science is a human interprise. Egos,
 >stupid moves and just plain mistakes always happen, while
 >conspiracies don't always happen - or are you among those who
 >think that there is always a conspiracy involved?

No. You aren't among those who think it's OK for scientists to
engage in blatant deceptions to defend "science," are you?







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                P-47: Pelicans - Make Way for Flying Saucers!

From: Ed Stewart <ufoindex@JPS.NET>
Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 18:02:33 -0700
Fwd Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 00:47:41 -0400
Subject: P-47: Pelicans - Make Way for Flying Saucers!


Over the last couple of years I have collected at least
hundreds, if not thousands of images, of flying saucers in the
popular culture literature dating prior to the 1947 wave going
back to the front end of the 20th century. Ray Palmer, as the
editor of Amazing Stories, is on record that he "knew" what
flying saucers were in 1945 even before the advent of the modern
wave. I find this back cover (a new addition that just came to
my attention) of the August 1946 issue of Amazing Stories
fascinating. Here we have flying saucers, Ray Palmer, and a
Richard Shaver story ten months before Arnold's objects made
headlines.

http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=319644431

Enjoy,

Ed Stewart

--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ed Stewart ufoindex@jps.net|So Man, who here seems principal alone,
There Is Something         |Perhaps acts second to some sphere unknown.
    Going On!       ,>'?'<, |Touches some wheel, or verges to some goal,
Salvador Freixedo  ( O O ) |'Tis but a part we see, and not a whole.
---------------ooOO-(_)-OOoo------- Alexander Pope, Essay on Man -------






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                              Vehicle Shutdown?

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 01:31:29 -0400 (EDT)
Fwd Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 07:40:59 -0400
Subject: Vehicle Shutdown?



Dear Errol, Listers and (argggh) Researchers;

As some of you know, I've been writing my memoirs (so to speak).
Memoirs as they relate to my perceived experiences. But
something has been bothering me, something from my own
experience and something I've read about, as have we all, ad
infinitum.  Make that ad nauseum

When someone in his or her car has an experience, the engine
invariably shuts down, lights go out, radios (transmit and/or
receivers) shut down.  Invariably they come back on after the
event is over.  I've read that the " ... engine suddenly starts
back up ..."

How does this happen?  Has anyone asked if the engine started
without the engagement of the ignition switch?  It just started
running again by itself?  Has anyone heard of the engine starter
being used with or without the aid of the victim?  Has anyone
specifically asked this question?

I have assumed that it stopped and, without having to use the
starter switch, just started running. Can anyone out there shake
loose from Pelican Poop and Pia on Mars long enough to provide
some information?

Thank yous,

Jim Mortellaro
AKA, Gesundt






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                             Italian UFO Centre

From: Alfredo Lissoni <alisson@tin.it>
Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 10:09:32 +0200
Fwd Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 07:48:59 -0400
Subject: Italian UFO Centre


Greetings,

Italy's National UFO Center (CUN) is the most serious Italian
UFO organisation since 1965; our president is Mr. Roberto
Pinotti; we publish every month 'UFO Notiziario'; our web page
is:

www.cun-italia.net.


Our philosophy...


About C.U.N.
Centro Ufologico Nazionale: Italy's National UFO Centre

For sometime now, the acronym UFO, coined nearly fifty years ago
by the United States Air Force, has been used to denote a
technical term for ("Unidentified Flying Objects").

This was done in order to have a certain detachment from the
picturesque term "flying saucers", which originated with pilot
Kenneth Arnold on June 24th 1947 with his first sighting of
these objects . UFO has thus become an integral part of our
common everyday vocabulary. The initials UFO have even been
added to dictionaries among the new phrases and has become
synonymous with a unique and mysterious event mostly belonging
to the science fiction realm and which is imagined by thousands
of people. This made it a phenomena completely unrelated the
daily reality that surrounds us, an extraterrestrial reality.
Popular polls in America and Europe tell us that, not only young
people, but also a high percentage of adults, among cultured,
high income earning adults, are very sensitive to the problem
and its implications; while those who are indifferent and
skeptical are fast becoming the minority. From all this comes
the need to supply correct information to the general public who
are somewhat out of the circle of the passionately involved and
who are asking for more information and rightfully so.

For more of thirty years, through the Center Ufologico Italiano
(CUN) and by way of its respected and reputable image, we , at
"Notiziario UFO" and now  "UFO Notiziario", are addressing this
controversial problem in Italy. Ours has been a labor of much
research, of evaluation and investigation that has demystified
many cases. All this has helped us earn the support of the
authorities, of the mass media and of the general public, but
likewise the aversion of whose who, by their myopic vision based
primarily on conventional science and religion, claim to have
all the answers to the universe.

In the meantime, in these thirty years, there has emerged a
great deal of evidence and reliable data that we can verify that
makes this UFO reality more of a certainty. Today with this
Internet Network, our new approach must put aside the logical,
traditional and practical which is rather limiting to our
interested readers, in order to leave the field open for a new
open, investigative approach to the problem.

The problem, in fact, is not only to address the discussion
(Ufological and various other connected phenomenon) with techno-
scientific terms but to be able to give some answers to these
many questions by informing, using more appropriately, suitable
terms the ever more growing population who believes it has all
the facts and also has all the answers to them.

This is not and will never be a web-magazine dedicated to
mysteries and the inconclusive solutions to them. Let's leave it
to the various other publications that combine astrology, magic,
the esoteric, with parapsychology and the like with the UFO
phenomenon. This is because it is now evident that this
phenomenon is separate and distinct from a strictly human
sphere, both traditionally and physiologically different, and it
concerns other explanations that science and technology are not
able to furnish to the questions so many people ask.

Are we alone in the Universe? Are we being visited by extra
terrestrial beings? Have these particular visits occurred in the
past? What role do they play in our regards? How do these
intelligences view us? What are the implications and
consequences from contact with creatures from other worlds? What
waits us in the Cosmos that lies beyond the Earth?

To these mysteries which push each of us to the end of this
millennium and which take us beyond our cultural boundaries of
language, religion and political thought, we will attempt to
give clear and precise answers.We will publish all the news that
we believe to be accurate and credible as reliable information
and most of all we will publish it in a positive light , being
always aware that people in this field of research wish to have
the uncomfortable truth rather than a reassuring lie.

Lastly, these pages remain open for whichever text, information,
news event that could interest the public within the perimeters
that we have here established, without biases of any kind.


Best wishes from Italy,

Alfredo Lissoni





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                   Art Bell Prevails In Defamation Hearing

From: UFO UpDates - Toronto
Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 08:09:07 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 08:09:07 -0400
Subject: Art Bell Prevails In Defamation Hearing


Source: Rowland Network Communications


http://bbs.rowlandnet.com/cgi-bin/WebX?14@@.ee6c827/69


Art Bell Prevails In Defamation Hearing

Nashville (April 28, 2000) - Late night radio host Art Bell took
a significant step forward today in his two-year battle to
vindicate his reputation. After lengthy oral argument this
morning, Judge Marietta Shipley rejected attempts by local radio
stations WWCR and WNQM and radio host Ted Gunderson to dismiss
Mr. Bell's lawsuit against them.

Art Bell filed his defamation lawsuit in the Circuit Court for
Davidson County after Mr. Gunderson and David Hinkson accused
him of molesting children on a program aired worldwide on WWCR,
a Nashville-based short wave radio station. Citing the emotional
harm that resulted from the false charges, Mr. Bell announced on
March 31, 2000 his retirement from radio broadcasting.

Art Bell's lead counsel, Gerard P. Fox of Los Angeles, had the
following statement:

"When a person has been defamed, there is no putting the genie
entirely back in the bottle. However, the Court's ruling today
that Mr. Bell has provided sufficient evidence to allow the case
to be decided by a jury goes a long way toward restoring his
reputation. This day in Court has reaffirmed Mr. Bell's
confidence in our judicial system."

Additional information about Art Bell's lawsuit may be obtained
by calling Gerard P. Fox at (310) 229-9300 or Mr. Bell's
Tennessee lawyer, John Wood of Branham & Day, P.C., at (615)
742-4880.







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                         Skeptical Enquirer Article?

From: Philip Mantle <pmquest@dial.pipex.com>
Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 11:27:47 +0000
Fwd Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 08:18:06 -0400
Subject: Skeptical Enquirer Article?


Dear colleagues,

I am trying to locate the comments made by FX artist Steve
Johnson with regards to the alien autopsy film which I believe
appeared in the Skeptical Enquirer, Vol 20, No 1, Jan/Feb l996.

If anyone can help provide me with these comments I'd greatly
appreciate it if they could contact me direct at:
pmquest@dial.pipex.com

Many thanks,

Philip.







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                            Re: Vehicle Shutdown?

From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net>
Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 05:17:10 -0700
Fwd Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 08:24:07 -0400
Subject: Re: Vehicle Shutdown?


 >Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 01:31:29 -0400 (EDT)
 >From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >Subject: Vehicle Shutdown?
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

<snip>

 >When someone in his or her car has an experience, the engine
 >invariably shuts down, lights go out, radios (transmit and/or
 >receivers) shut down. Invariably they come back on after the
 >event is over. I've read that the " ... engine suddenly starts
 >back up ..."

 >How does this happen? Has anyone asked if the engine started
 >without the engagement of the ignition switch? It just started
 >running again by itself? Has anyone heard of the engine starter
 >being used with or without the aid of the victim? Has anyone
 >specifically asked this question?

 >I have assumed that it stopped and, without having to use the
 >starter switch, just started running. Can anyone out there shake
 >loose from Pelican Poop and Pia on Mars long enough to provide
 >some information?


Hello Jim:

Another Jim (McCampbell) wrote on that very topic. I am also
confused by this. Too too many UFO writers just gloss over this
little matter as if it had no importance, when indeed it could
provide some precious nuts-and-bolts information!

Often you will read "Just as/after the UFO departed, the engine
started right up." All by itself? Did anyone have the presence
of mind to ask if the witness turned the key or his the button?


I see several possibilities:

1) The investigator is brainless.

2) The car started right up when they turned the key, whereas
they could not start the car at all during the sighting.

3) Same as above, but the witness instinctively turned the key
without even thinking of it nor remembering having done so.

4) The witness suffered a period of memory blackout, including
starting the car .. and can only recall events somewhat later
on.

5) The witness may have even been "programmed" to start the
car, perhaps with some false cover memories. It might be some
sort of oversight, that starting the car got blanked out along
with other much more disturbing events.

6) A very few reports specifically state that the car indeed
started itself. McCampbell zeroed in on these, and suggested
some ways, however unlikely, that this could occur.

Email me individually for a list of events that seem to fall
into the various categories above. Ask for the STARTUP.TXT
file, which I can attach to the return post.

If its OK with EBK, I can post the file directly to this email
list. The line-length, 78 characters, may be problematic.

[Post, Larry --ebk]

Best wishes

- Larry Hatch
   <larryhat@jps.net>








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                            Re: Vehicle Shutdown?

From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net>
Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 05:35:44 -0700
Fwd Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 08:42:06 -0400
Subject: Re: Vehicle Shutdown?


 >Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 05:17:10 -0700
 >From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net>
 >Subject: Re: Vehicle Shutdown?
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 01:31:29 -0400 (EDT)
 >>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >>Subject: Vehicle Shutdown?
 >>To: updates@sympatico.ca

 ><snip>

 >>When someone in his or her car has an experience, the engine
 >>invariably shuts down, lights go out, radios (transmit and/or
 >>receivers) shut down. Invariably they come back on after the
 >>event is over. I've read that the " ... engine suddenly starts
 >>back up ..."

 >>How does this happen? Has anyone asked if the engine started
 >>without the engagement of the ignition switch? It just started
 >>running again by itself? Has anyone heard of the engine starter
 >>being used with or without the aid of the victim? Has anyone
 >>specifically asked this question?

<snip>

 >If its OK with EBK, I can post the file directly to this email
 >list. The line-length, 78 characters, may be problematic.
 >
 >[Post, Larry --ebk]


OK EBK! Here goes, inline:

#3599: 1954/10/7  6:20  10  0:7:20E  48:9:0N  3333  WEU FRN
SRT  8 7
St-JEAN-d'ASSE,FR:CGR+BLU BEAM:MILK TRUCK
EMEs:RESTARTS!:/r8#207+/r217p61
Ref# 194 LUMIERES dans la NUIT.(Paris)        Issue No. 319
ROAD+RAILS

#4937: 1957/10/25  23:0  2  1:48:0E  44:51:0N  3311  WEU FRN
LOT  8 6
SW/LOUBRESSAC,FR:CAR EMEs:SLNT DOMED SCR LANDS:OBS PRLZD:CAR
SELF-STARTS AFTER
Ref# 194 LUMIERES dans la NUIT.(Paris)        Issue No. 153
FARMLANDS

#4972: 1957/11/3  0:50  15  102:27:0W  33:35:20N  3333  NAM
USA TXS  7 6
W/LEVELLAND,TX:BIG FBL HVRS:^/ROAD:TRUCK EMEs:FBL ^^+TRUCK
RESTARTS ITSELF!
Ref# 141 GROSS,L:UFOs a HISTORY-1957/10 books Book # 6  Page
3 ROAD+RAILS

#5175: 1957/12/8  17:50  5  99:2:0W  36:13:0N  3333  NAM USA
OKL  10 8
WOODWARD to SEILING,OK:16M SCR W/PORTHOLES:CAR RESTARTS
ITSELF!:3 ABD?:/r79p14
Ref# 8 VALLEE,Jacques: PASSPORT TO MAGONIA. Case No. 448
FOREST

#5235: 1958/3/0  18:30  1  74:50:0W  45:13:0N  3213  NAM CAN
ONT  7 6
NE/MONKLAND,ONT:2/CAR:HUGE BOWL-SCR WHIRRS:LITES/BTM:>S
OVHD:CAR EMEs+RESTARTS
Ref# 252 CAMERON,V: UFO EXPERIENCES in CANADA Page No. 24
ROAD+RAILS

#6309: 1964/5/24  21:0  5  68:43:0W  45:40:0N  3333  NAM USA
MNE  7 7
MILLINOCKET,ME:75cm FBL CIRCLES CAR:CAR WONT START UNTIL IT
FLIES OFF:/Atic
Ref# 8 VALLEE,Jacques: PASSPORT TO MAGONIA. Case No. 607
FOREST

#6640: 1965/8/4  2:0  5  101:48:0W  35:15:0N  3333  NAM USA
TXS  8 9
AMARILLO,TX:SVRL OBS:SCR HVRS OVR HWY:MOTOR SOUND:^^:CAR
WONT START/5min:/news
Ref# 79 RODEGHIER,Mark:UFO RPTS/VEHICLE INTF Page No. 24
ROAD+RAILS

#6833: 1965/12/23  23:0  5  95:48:40W  48:4:0N  3333  NAM
USA MNS  7 8
S/GOODRIDGE,MN:3/CAR:CAR EMEs:30'SCR JUST OVR HWY:CAR
RESTARTS WHEN SCR FLIES
Ref# 160 MUFON UFO JOURNAL   (by issue no.)   Issue No. 272
ROAD+RAILS

#7225: 1966/11/0  23:0  3  4:49:20E  50:36:20N  3313  WEU
BNL BLG  7 6
LIERNU,BELG:MCYCLE DIES:5M DOMED SCR GOES 12M OVHD:ENGINE
RESTARTS:/IFS#33 p6
Ref# 79 RODEGHIER,Mark:UFO RPTS/VEHICLE INTF Page No. 31
FARMLANDS

#7348: 1967/2/13  22:0  3  114:4:20W  48:4:0N  3333  NAM USA
MNT  6 6
BIGFORK,MT:TRUCK MOTOR+LITES FAIL:NLT OVHD:MOTOR STARTS
ITSELF AFTER!:/r233p40
Ref# 79 RODEGHIER,Mark:UFO RPTS/VEHICLE INTF Page No. 32
MOUNTAINS

#7721: 1967/9/19  19:30  5  40:49:0E  48:37:0N  3333  CIS
RUS VLG  7 10
S/VOLGOGRAD,RS:UFO BUZZES AEROFLT IL-14:ENGINES
QUIT:RESTART/OBJ >>E:/r58p37
Ref# 120 GOOD,Timothy: ABOVE TOP SECRET.      Page No. 230
IN-FLIGHT

#7766: 1967/10/11  20:0  4  113:54:20W  50:41:20N  3333  NAM
CAN ALB  7 7
ALDERSYDE,ALTA:SCR 400'OVR FARM:2 OBS:CAR EMES:STARTS SELF
AFTER!:/r00p270
Ref# 79 RODEGHIER,Mark:UFO RPTS/VEHICLE INTF Page No. 37
FARMLANDS

#8380: 1968/11/22  20:10  4  84:30:0W  31:18:40N  3333  NAM
USA GRG  8 6
W/NEWTON,GA:OVOID:BEAM HITS CAR+RETRACTS:CAR
RESTARTS:/r55p189+/APRO Nov'68
Ref# 24 NICAP: UFO INVESTIGATOR              Volume 4 Issue
9 FARMLANDS

#8479: 1969/2/2  4:40  3  72:7:0W  36:36:0S  3333  SAM CHL
NBL  10 7
CHILLAN,CHILE:FBL ^:2 CARS START W/NO BATTERY
CONNECTED:MOVED+DENTED:LDLN#118
Ref# 79 RODEGHIER,Mark:UFO RPTS/VEHICLE INTF Page No. 44
ROAD+RAILS

#8666: 1969/7/31  20:0  10  37:30:0E  55:48:0N  3333  CIS
RUS MOS  7 10
USOVO,RUSSIA:2 SCRS OVR ROAD:6 CARS STALL:TAKES 2 MINUTES
BEFORE CAN START
Ref# 79 RODEGHIER,Mark:UFO RPTS/VEHICLE INTF Page No. 47
ROAD+RAILS

#8919: 1970/9/25  21:30  2  65:19:0W  43:47:0N  3333  NAM
CAN NSC  7 6
SHELBURNE,NS:1/CAR:DRK TILTED OBJ OVR Hwy:CAR
EMEs:OBJ^:CAR+TAPE-DECK RESTARTS
Ref# 179 LEDGER,Don: MARITIME UFO FILES       Page No. 92
ROAD+RAILS

#8961: 1970/12/14  1:30  1  26:9:0E  44:21:0N  3333  EEU ROM
BUC  7 8
BUCHAREST,ROM:SKY TURNS RED:BLINDING WHT LITE:COP CAR STARTS
ITSELF:/r79p50
Ref# 84 HOBANA&WEVERBERGH:UFOS/IRON CURTAIN  Page No. 271
METROPOLIS

#8970: 1971/1/3  3:50  1  123:36:0W  46:59:0N  3333  NAM USA
WSH  6 6
MONTESANO,WA:CAR BUZZED/3 60cm SCRs:ENGINE QUITS:WONT
START:OK AFTERWARD:
Ref# 210 The APRO BULLETIN. (J & C Lorenzen)  Year 71 Month
5 ROAD+RAILS

#9014: 1971/5/0  22:0  30  145:28:0E  42:8:0S  3313  OCN AUS
TSM  5 8
STRAHAN,TASM:SVRL/CAR/EMES:NLT OVR ROAD:CAR STARTS+NLT PACES
to town:/TUFOIC
Ref# 171 ALDRICH,Jan: PROJECT 1947 (research) Page No. 0
ROAD+RAILS

#9029: 1971/5/18  18:0  15  77:27:0W  38:17:0N  3332  NAM
USA VRG  7 9
FREDERICKSBURG,VA:2+2 OBS:CAR EMEs:HUGE SCR 50'OVHD:CAR
STARTS:SCR PACES..
Ref# 160 MUFON UFO JOURNAL   (by issue no.)   Issue No. 277
RESIDENT'L

#9075: 1971/7/18  2:0  1  4:45:0W  6:0:0N  3333  NAF IVC
IVC  7 6
NW/ABIDJAN,IVORY COAST:2/CAR >S:SCR >OVR ROAD/lo
alt:EME+HEAT:car restarts!
Ref# 193 PHENOMENA SPATIAUX Quarterly, Paris  Issue No. 34
ROAD+RAILS

#9268: 1972/5/0  0:0  3  42:10:0E  48:40:0N  3311  CIS RUS
VLG  11 10
12mi W/VOLGOGRAD,RUS:CAR STALLS:HUGE MTL UFO:TLP="HAVE NO
FEAR:CAR SELF-STARTS
Ref# 79 RODEGHIER,Mark:UFO RPTS/VEHICLE INTF Page No. 54
FARMLANDS

#9419: 1972/8/21  21:0  2  88:13:0W  43:0:0N  3331  NAM USA
WSC  6 6
WAUKESHA,WI:TEEN/CAR/EMEs:LRG CIRC.OBJ/8M alt:BEEPS+away:CAR
STARTS/lites out
Ref# 24 NICAP: UFO INVESTIGATOR              Year 72 Month
10 RESIDENT'L

#9509: 1972/11/10  23:0  3  0:15:0E  50:57:0N  3333  WEU GBI
ENG  8 6
HEATHFIELD,E.SUSSEX:MCYCLE EMES:GLOWING WHT BLOB FLIES
OFF:BIKE SELF-STARTS!
Ref# 79 RODEGHIER,Mark:UFO RPTS/VEHICLE INTF Page No. 55
FARMLANDS

#9552: 1973/1/1  23:50  2  73:13:0W  40:41:0S  3333  SAM CHL
VLV  7 7
OSORNO,CHILE:SCR MAKES 2 PASSES/CAR/STALLS:2 OBS:SCR
GOES:CAR STARTS BY ITSELF
Ref# 79 RODEGHIER,Mark:UFO RPTS/VEHICLE INTF Page No. 55
OFFSHORE

#10061: 1973/10/24  21:0  2  80:43:20W  36:24:0N  3333  NAM
USA NCR  10 6
DOBSON,NC:CAR EMEs:12'SCR ^:OID STARES+OBS FAINTS:CAR STARTS
ITSELF!:/r79p59
Ref# 178 WEBB,David:'73-YEAR of the HUMANOIDS Page No. 17
FARMLANDS

#10457: 1974/3/25  3:0  2  0:2:0W  43:46:0N  3313  WEU FRN
GRS  9 5
nr NOGARO,GERS:CAR EMEs:90cm GREEN OID BY ROADSIDE:LONG
ARMS:CAR RESTARTS!
Ref# 30 FIGEUT&RUCHON: OVNI: Le 1er Dossier  Page No. 462
ROAD+RAILS

#11298: 1975/11/16  3:0  3  4:0:0W  42:11:0N  3333  WEU SPN
VLD  7 7
BOCOS><CURIEL,SPN:SCR OVHD:CAR EMEs+HITS DITCH:ONLY STARTS
LATER:/r79p66
Ref# 195 FLYING SAUCER REVIEW: (London)       Volume 22
Issue 6 MOUNTAINS

#11335: 1975/12/23  23:0  2  95:48:40W  48:8:0N  3333  NAM
USA MNS  10 8
GOODRIDGE,MN:25' SCR:CAR MOTOR+LITES DIE:SUDDENLY
DISAPPEAR:CAR SELF-STARTS..
Ref# 79 RODEGHIER,Mark:UFO RPTS/VEHICLE INTF Page No. 67
TOWN &CITY

#11955: 1977/6/17  5:20  60  29:30:0E  25:55:0S  3323  SAF
RSA TRV  9 7
nr MIDDLEBURG,RSA:BRITE UFO/QUARRY:TRUCK
EMEs+RESTARTS:MST:POSS.ABD:/r79p71
Ref# 160 MUFON UFO JOURNAL   (by issue no.)   Issue No. 118
FARMLANDS

#12199: 1977/12/10  18:30  60  1:15:0E  45:49:0N  3333  WEU
FRN HVN  8 6
nr LIMOGES,FR:1/CAR/EMEs:MST:COMPLEX ABD+EXAM/OIDS:WAKENS
CAR/RESTARTS ITSELF!
Ref# 194 LUMIERES dans la NUIT.(Paris)        Issue No. 317
ROAD+RAILS

#12334: 1978/3/25  0:30  3  1:35:20W  48:1:0N  3333  WEU FRN
I&V  7 8
St.ARMEL,FR:HUGE DISK ovr HV LINES:CAR EMEs:RESTARTS
ITSELF/3rd GEAR:/LDLN#175
Ref# 153 BOURRET,Jean-C:  OVNI..l'ARMEE PARLE Page No. 79
ROAD+RAILS

#12530: 1978/8/24  22:0  2  92:22:20W  40:51:40N  3333  NAM
USA IOW  7 6
10mi S/OTTUMWA,IA:NLT FLIES BHND TREES:CAR DIES:WINDOW
FOGS:RESTARTS ITSELF!
Ref# 79 RODEGHIER,Mark:UFO RPTS/VEHICLE INTF Page No. 73
FARMLANDS

#12702: 1978/11/27  23:20  60  8:49:0W  40:12:0N  3323  WEU
PRT BRL  8 8
FIGUERA da FOZ,PORT:UFO/type unk:ALL CLOCKS STOP/1 hr and
START AGAIN!
Ref# 194 LUMIERES dans la NUIT.(Paris)        Issue No. 187
RESIDENT'L

#13727: 1983/3/10  3:0  15  67:8:40W  18:0:0S  3332  SAM BLV
ORU  9 11
VENTILLA,BOLIVIA:70 OBS:SCR ZAPS TRAIN:DIESEL ENGINE
STALLS:RESTARTS!:/MFJ#203
Ref# 63 NATIONAL ENQUIRER UFO REPORT (1985)  Page No. 188
ROAD+RAILS

#17232: 1996/7/3  13:0  1  104:0:0W  46:54:0N  3331  NAM USA
NDK  8 7
BEACH,ND:1+BOYS:40'GRY SCR STOPS:FIGs MOVE/4 WINDOWS:6
LEGS:TRUCK AUTO-STARTS
Ref# 220 NATIONAL UFO REP.CTR (NURC)  SEATTLE Volume 0 Issue
0 FARMLANDS








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                  Re: Discovery Channel's - 'Giants' & UFOs

From: Roy J Hale <royjhale@netscapeonline.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 01:36:50 +0100
Fwd Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 08:45:05 -0400
Subject: Re: Discovery Channel's - 'Giants' & UFOs


 >>Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 11:12:07 +0100
 >>From: Jenny Randles <nufon@currantbun.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Discovery Channel's - 'Giants' & UFOs
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

JR wrote:

 >>Well, this isn't my programme. I was just a little involved in
 >>the content. But as I understand it the crew flew to Isreal
 >>because of a wave of sightings there in which giant entities
 >>were seen during close encounters.

Hi Jenny & All,

The reports of these 'Giants' were linked to the Elohim in the
Bible due to the size and description of the entities.

If anyone wants some old reports on the 'Giants' from magazines
then email me privately I have a large backlog of UK UFO Mags!

Regards,

Roy..







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                            Re: Vehicle Shutdown?

From: Donald Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 08:49:12 -0300
Fwd Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 08:47:35 -0400
Subject: Re: Vehicle Shutdown?


 >Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 01:31:29 -0400 (EDT)
 >From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >Subject: Vehicle Shutdown?
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >When someone in his or her car has an experience, the engine
 >invariably shuts down, lights go out, radios (transmit and/or
 >receivers) shut down.  Invariably they come back on after the
 >event is over.  I've read that the " ... engine suddenly starts
 >back up ..."

 >How does this happen?  Has anyone asked if the engine started
 >without the engagement of the ignition switch?  It just started
 >running again by itself?  Has anyone heard of the engine starter
 >being used with or without the aid of the victim?  Has anyone
 >specifically asked this question?

Hi Jim,

In the two that I have personally investigated, the starter has
nothing to do with it. It seems that compression is locked in
some of the cylinders when the engine suddenly stops. The
ignition is left on. A short time after - when whatever the
powerful force is releases its grip on the engine - the pistons
are driven back down and since the ignition is still on the
engine fires up..... similar to catching the engine in gear.

Don Ledger







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                            Re: Vehicle Shutdown?

From: Roy J Hale <royjhale@netscapeonline.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 01:47:22 +0100
Fwd Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 08:51:49 -0400
Subject: Re: Vehicle Shutdown?


 >Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 01:31:29 -0400 (EDT)
 >From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >Subject: Vehicle Shutdown?
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

<snip>

 >When someone in his or her car has an experience, the engine
 >invariably shuts down, lights go out, radios (transmit and/or
 >receivers) shut down.  Invariably they come back on after the
 >event is over.  I've read that the " ... engine suddenly starts
 >back up ..."

 >How does this happen?  Has anyone asked if the engine started
 >without the engagement of the ignition switch?  It just started
 >running again by itself?  Has anyone heard of the engine starter
 >being used with or without the aid of the victim?  Has anyone
 >specifically asked this question?


Hi Jim,

Very interesting question you raise here. I have a colleague who
whilst driving his new car in the countryside, suddenly found
his car grinding to a halt? This was at the same time he saw a
UFO sitting some way up in the sky.

He did have a passenger in the car and we have been trying to
figure out if the two events are linked in anyway? Looking for
some info on this!

Regards,

Roy..







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                            Re: Vehicle Shutdown?

From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net>
Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 06:07:43 -0700
Fwd Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 09:18:28 -0400
Subject: Re: Vehicle Shutdown?


 >Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 08:49:12 -0300
 >From: Donald Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
 >Subject: Re: Vehicle Shutdown?
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >>Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 01:31:29 -0400 (EDT)
 >>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >>Subject: Vehicle Shutdown?
 >>To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >>When someone in his or her car has an experience, the engine
 >>invariably shuts down, lights go out, radios (transmit and/or
 >>receivers) shut down.  Invariably they come back on after the
 >>event is over.  I've read that the " ... engine suddenly starts
 >>back up ..."

 >>How does this happen?  Has anyone asked if the engine started
 >>without the engagement of the ignition switch?  It just started
 >>running again by itself?  Has anyone heard of the engine starter
 >>being used with or without the aid of the victim?  Has anyone
 >>specifically asked this question?

 >Hi Jim,

 >In the two that I have personally investigated, the starter has
 >nothing to do with it. It seems that compression is locked in
 >some of the cylinders when the engine suddenly stops. The
 >ignition is left on. A short time after - when whatever the
 >powerful force is releases its grip on the engine - the pistons
 >are driven back down and since the ignition is still on the
 >engine fires up..... similar to catching the engine in gear.


Yes! That was one of McCampbell's suggestions as well.

Personally, I find it hard to understand in most cases.

There is always some leakage or blow-by. After a ten minute
sighting say, I would expect the compression to have leaked
away.

Assuming the ignition was left on however, a magnetic field
strong enough to close the ingnition relay (usually right on the
starter itself) might also do the trick. Again, this is hard to
envision. The field strength would have to me enormous, so other
effects should then be noted. Would the hood of the car crumple
up like a tin can?

Best!

- Larry Hatch








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                           Fox TV/New Book Release

From: Jan M. Pheneger <ufoohio@wcoil.com>
Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 09:27:13 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 09:39:29 -0400
Subject: Fox TV/New Book Release


Dear List,

Having watched the program aired, Thursday, on Fox TV, and with
his new book coming out May 1, 2000, 'UFO - FBI Connection', I
would like to commend and congratulate Dr. Bruce Maccabee for
his work. His three hour airing on Jeff Rense's Sightings was
both informative, very interesting listening.

Those of you who had the opportunity to listen to the broadcast
will surely be most interested in obtaining his newest book, as
it was the subject topic of the show with Jeff Rense last
evening Friday April 28.

I have read 'The Gulf Breeze Sightings' by Ed & Francis Walters
with Bruce Maccabee and his knowledge of photo optics and find
him most intelligent, as well as commendable in his research and
studies.

'UFOs Are Real: Here's The Proof' by Ed Walters and Dr. Bruce
Maccabee I also highly recommend highly, as it was fascinating
reading.

His book 'UFO - FBI Connection' comes highly recommended and is
yet more Commendable writing from a very brilliant, intelligent
man.

Congratulations Bruce!

Respectfully,

Jan M. Pheneger







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              Re: Cydonian Imperative: Mars Conspiracy Theories

From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 09:51:45 -0400 (EDT)
Fwd Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 10:07:28 -0400
Subject: Re: Cydonian Imperative: Mars Conspiracy Theories


 >From: Roger Evans <raka@swbell.net>
 >Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 19:55:53 -0500
 >Fwd Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 00:07:11 -0400
 >Subject: Re: Cydonian Imperative: Mars Conspiracy Theories

<snip>

 >I don't know about Lan, Bob. But are you among those that think
 >there is _never_ a conspiracy involved?

Roger,

Never say never. But, there are conspiracies, and then there are
_Conspiracies_, and then there is wishful thinking (I'm thinking
here of the JPL researchers). I would like to see evidence,
though.

There is also the weather, which could have enough dust to have
a bluish sky or a pinkish sky.

Sun's out here this morning,

Bob Young







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                            Re: Vehicle Shutdown?

From: Loy Pressley <lkpres@koyote.com>
Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 08:55:40 -0500
Fwd Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 10:08:45 -0400
Subject: Re: Vehicle Shutdown?


 >Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 06:07:43 -0700
 >From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net>
 >Subject: Re: Vehicle Shutdown?
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 08:49:12 -0300
 >>From: Donald Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
 >>Subject: Re: Vehicle Shutdown?
 >>To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >>are driven back down and since the ignition is still on the
 >>engine fires up..... similar to catching the engine in gear.

 >Yes! That was one of McCampbell's suggestions as well.

 >Personally, I find it hard to understand in most cases.

 >a magnetic field
 >strong enough to close the ingnition relay (usually right on the
 >starter itself) might also do the trick. Again, this is hard to
 >envision. The field strength would have to me enormous, so other
 >effects should then be noted

How about some sort of suspension of time as a means of stopping
the engine in midstroke and, when the UFO left the area, time
returns to normal and the engine continues to run?  That's just
a wild guess but it is possible. Because time would be
manipulated by the proximity of the UFO, the witness might not
be aware that anything happend.

Loy








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                            Re: Vehicle Shutdown

From: Brian Cuthbertson <brianc@fc.net>
Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 09:28:11 -0500 (CDT)
Fwd Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 11:50:22 -0400
Subject: Re: Vehicle Shutdown


 >Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 01:31:29 -0400 (EDT)
 >From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >Subject: Vehicle Shutdown?
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >When someone in his or her car has an experience, the engine
 >invariably shuts down, lights go out, radios (transmit and/or
 >receivers) shut down. Invariably they come back on after the
 >event is over. I've read that the " ... engine suddenly starts
 >back up ..."

 >How does this happen? Has anyone asked if the engine started
 >without the engagement of the ignition switch? It just started
 >running again by itself? Has anyone heard of the engine starter
 >being used with or without the aid of the victim? Has anyone
 >specifically asked this question?

Jim,

Just for the sake of shear unbridled speculation, I suggest
you're applying 20th century thinking to 30th (40th? 800th?)
century technology. Which naturally leads to confusion on the
part of us primitives.

I'm reminded of a story (sorry, can't cite the source; it was
one of those endless "UFOs revealed" - style books) wherein a
group of soldiers, in Argentina I think, encounters a landed
UFO. The lieutenant (John Wayne?) tells the men to wait, and
goes over the hill by himself to investigate. 20 minutes later
he returns dazed with 3 days worth of beard on his face.

Obviously a case of good old 30th (40th? 800th?) century time
compression/expansion/suppression at work.

So I'd venture that perhaps the motor restarts because it never
knew it had stopped - it was simply put in a suspended state of
some sort, timewise that is, and then allowed to continue when
appropriate. No 20th century starter required in such cases.

So there's some totally unprovable speculation for you, for what
little its worth.

-Brian






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                            Re: Vehicle Shutdown?

From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 10:52:09 -0400 (EDT)
Fwd Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 11:51:47 -0400
Subject: Re: Vehicle Shutdown?


 >From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net>
 >Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 06:07:43 -0700
 >Fwd Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 09:18:28 -0400
 >Subject: Re: Vehicle Shutdown?

<snip>

 >Assuming the ignition was left on however, a magnetic field
 >strong enough to close the inanition relay (usually right on the
 >starter itself) might also do the trick. Again, this is hard to
 >envision. The field strength would have to me enormous, so other
 >effects should then be noted. Would the hood of the car crumple
 >up like a tin can?

Larry, Don, List:

This is something that one can get one's teeth into.  It is
possible, using a small compass and a sheet of paper covering
the hood, to map the compass pointer directions at different
places on the hood. Other hoods stamped at the same vehicle
plant (in many cases the only plant making those hoods in that
particular year) will show the same pattern).  Investigators can
check other similar cars from the same years in used car yards.
If there is a significant difference, check out if the hood was
repaired.

This method was outlined in Condon and can b e found, somewhere,
at:

http://www.ncas.org/condon/

Clear skies,

Bob Young







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                       Re: Does Mars Have A Blue Sky?

From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 10:52:32 -0400 (EDT)
Fwd Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 11:53:43 -0400
Subject: Re: Does Mars Have A Blue Sky?


 >From: Lan Fleming <apollo18@swbell.net>
 >Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 20:42:05 -0600
 >Fwd Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 00:30:11 -0400
 >Subject: Re: Does Mars Have A Blue Sky?


 >>Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 01:59:46 -0400 (EDT)
 >>From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >>Subject: Does Mars Have A Blue Sky?
 >>To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >>I think we are talking about a number of separate things, here,
 >>each one of which could be true: a) blue limb to Mars, as shown
 >>in Hubble pix; b) reddish or pink sky as seen from Viking
 >>landers and Pathfinder; c) color of rocks at the three landing
 >>sites.

 >Perhaps, but the Hubble scientists predicted that Pathfinder
 >would see a blue sky from its vantage point on the surface
 >unless there was a dust storm. There were no dust storms, but
 >the skies were not blue in the Pathfinder images as released.
 >There is clearly some disagreement among NASA scientists here.

Yes, seems so.

<snip>

 >Whether the sky is blue or red depends, of course, on
 >how you process the raw data

And also how much dust there was in or over the horizon.

<snip>

Lan quotes Thomas Mutch in "On Mars":

 >The entire scene, ground and atmosphere alike, was bathed
 >in a reddish glow. Unwilling to commit ourselves publicly to this
 >provocative display, we adjusted the parameters in the
 >calibration program until the sky came out a neutral gray." The
 >soil and rocks demonstrated good contrast, and the colors
 >'seemed reasonable'." This was the picture released eight hours
 >later. "But in our chagrin," Mutch recalled, "the sky took on a
 >bluish hue during reconstruction and photo-reproduction. The
 >media representatives were delighted with the Earth-like colors
 >of the scene."

 >One is left to wonder how Dr. Mutch could be "excited" about an
 >image and "chagrined" by it at the same time. He said he was
 >chagrined that the image didn't turn out the way he had intended
 >after his careful calibrations. Levin says there were no careful
 >calibrations; a technician just changed the color settings on
 >the TVs at JPL two hours after the image was first displayed.

 >I really don't know what color Mars' sky really is, but JPL
 >seems to have settled again on the neutral gray preferred by
 >Mutch. That's what JPL's Golumbek said the Pathfinder images
 >showed in a recent coffee table book about Mars put out by
 >National Geographic - after JPL released numerous pink sky
 >images.

I used to edit magazines and other publications. An awfull lot
can happen to the color of a picture between the original image
and what comes out of a printing press a few generations later.

One of John Auchettl's original questions involved the blue of
the Mars limb as showed in the Hubble picture. This limb can be
blue, just as the Earth's limb from orbit is blue, but the color
of the atmosphere as seen from the surface depends upon what's
happening lower down.

 >>I think that the promotion of this idea by two Mars Face
 >>proponents tells us a lot.

<snip>

 >Actually, the argument that Mars' sky is
 >blue is "promoted" (to use your buzz word) by Gil Levin,
 >principal investigator of the Viking labeled release biology
 >experiments on the Viking landers and his son Ron, professor of
 >physics at MIT and the person who gave the first-hand account of
 >how the first Viking image was altered. Neither one is a "Mars
 >Face proponent."

No, I was referring to Vincent Di Pietro and Gregory Molinaar,
who were mentioned in the "Sightings" article. This seems to be
just more of the same - NASA has faked the pictures for 24 years
- stufff. We'll never know why Thomas Mutch was both excited and
chagrined on the same day, these many years ago. Mutch met a
tragic death on Everest (I assume that this is the case when he
went missing. I have never subscribed to _that_ conspiracy
theory: that he was snatched away by aliens because he knew the
truth about Mars. As far as I know, you have never subscribed to
that one, either.)

Sorry, Lan, none of this was meant to be taken personaly. But a
conspiracy theory pushed for a quarter century by two people
possibly is of interest if, twenty four years later, the same
people come up with another conspiracy theory alleging that the
same people did something similar at the same time in the same
place.

Maybe you should take Vicent DiPietro's advice as outlined in
his communication included in your report and try to get Ken
Starr to investigate the "water gyser" in Solic Lacus. Be sure
to ask him to get some expert opinion on how water can exist at
an atmospheric pressure of 9 millibars, or even a twice that in
the deep crater there.

Sorry, Lan, nothing personal, but I have to admit that I made up
my mind about the Face on Mars-JPL picture conspiracy long ago.
Even before I had seen DiPietro claim on Bob Barry's old TV show
that the dust devils imaged on Mars were water spouts, I had
concluded that it's probably nonsense. I figured then that these
guys wouldn't know how to tell dust from water anyway.

I like the Ken Starr thing, though. He likes tilting at
windmills.

Clear (blue) skies,
Bob Young








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   Apr > Apr 29

                        Earth Chauvinism - Carl Sagan

From: John W. Auchettl <Praufo@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 11:49:09 -0400 (EDT)
Fwd Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 16:05:23 -0400
Subject: Earth Chauvinism - Carl Sagan


Hi EBK and All,

A slight detour into the world of the late Carl Sagan and that
'Blue Sky' Mars dilemma.

This is an interesting extract from the Viking history called
'On Mars: Exploration of the Red Planet. 1958-1978' Foreword by
- Noel W. Hinners

Chapter Title 'On The Surface'


EXTRACT:

"But to borrow Carl Sagan's phrase, to see this picture in
terms of deserts on our own planet was an 'Earth chauvinism'.
The photo was of Mars, not of Earth; the sky should have been
red. When James A. Pollack of the imaging team told a press
conference on July 21 that the Martian sky was pink, he was
greeted with some friendly boos and hisses. Sagan, in a way that
only he could, chided the newspeople the following day: "'The
sort of boos given to Jerry Pollack's pronouncement about a pink
sky reflects our wish for Mars to be just like the Earth'."

CITED REF: JPL "Viking Status Report, " 11:30 a.m. PDT,
22 July 1976; and Viking press briefing, 21 July 1976.

                             ***

Give the full web chapter a read its full of little gems and
camera images data.

Web page for On The Surface:

http://www.hq.nasa.gov/office/pao/History/SP-4212/ch11-4.html

                            ***

Don't let me weary you, but still getting oodles of new data in
the mail on the subject. As the "Devils Advocate" the score runs
as follows:

Interesting   =   52%
Believer      =   18%
Sceptic       =   22%
Who Cares     =    2%
Strange Mail  =    6%
   Total       = 100%

* a no complaints clause attached.

Again no happy solution to the original supposition, as yet.

Regards

John W. Auchettl - Director PRA Research


Phenomena Research Australia [PRA]
P.O. Box 523, Mulgrave, Victoria, Australia, 3170
Australian & Asia UFO
1961-2000 - 39 YEARS OF RESEARCH SERVICE







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   Apr > Apr 29

                                 Greek Sense

From: Brian Cuthbertson <brianc@fc.net>
Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 15:38:22 -0500 (CDT)
Fwd Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 22:15:48 -0400
Subject: Greek Sense


An interesting quote, found scribbled in an old 1973 diary of
mine, back when I was in physics at the University of Texas:

   "To consider the earth as the only populated
    world in infinite space is as absurd as to
    assert that in an entire field of grain
    sown with millet, only one grain will grow."

                              - Metrodoros
                                4th Century B.C.

Anyone know a way on the web to verify such quotes? I did a
quick search engine check, but not much luck. Just curious,

-Brian C.






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                            Re: Vehicle Shutdown?

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 16:35:59 -0400 (EDT)
Fwd Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 22:12:40 -0400
Subject: Re: Vehicle Shutdown?


 >Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 08:49:12 -0300
 >From: Donald Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
 >Subject: Re: Vehicle Shutdown?
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >>Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 01:31:29 -0400 (EDT)
 >>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >>Subject: Vehicle Shutdown?
 >>To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >>When someone in his or her car has an experience, the engine
 >>invariably shuts down, lights go out, radios (transmit and/or
 >>receivers) shut down. Invariably they come back on after the
 >>event is over. I've read that the "... engine suddenly starts
 >>back up..."

<snip>

 >Hi Jim,

 >In the two that I have personally investigated, the starter has
 >nothing to do with it. It seems that compression is locked in
 >some of the cylinders when the engine suddenly stops. The
 >ignition is left on. A short time after - when whatever the
 >powerful force is releases its grip on the engine - the pistons
 >are driven back down and since the ignition is still on the
 >engine fires up..... similar to catching the engine in gear.

 >Don Ledger

Dear Don, Larry, Errol and Listers;

Thanks. Other than speculation, which I can impose all by my
lonesome self, this is the caliber of answer I was seeking.

I've yet to be able to download Sir Hatch's txt.exe, which I
await with bated breath. Which means I've been imbibing
on the nectar of the gods... I refer to that purple nectar from
hectare.

I find it difficult to understand how compression may be locked
into the engine for what may be hours... perhaps it is my
fondness for science fiction, perhaps I am in my cups, maybe
it's the undigested boeuf bourgonion... but I have been thinking
about the effects of time on the abduction experience.

For in many experiences it is not only the engine which stops
running, or the lights go out, but it is other high strangeness
as well. For example, there appears to be a complete lack of
sound or otherwise a strange reaction to sound, as if no sound
intrudes other than thought, into the immediate area.

If one is outside, there are no bird sounds, no animal sounds,
no rushing of tires or whistling of the wind through the trees.
There is nothing. Or if there is sound, it appears to fall flat
as if thudding straight to the ground in lieu of propagating
out. Something is very... "off!"

So I wonder if it may have something to do with time or
dimension changes. I can see all them new agers out there, as
well as new age haters and Elian's daddy lovers going, "Oooo...
he may be onto something. It's just a thought.

Something tells me that the engine may not be stopping.
It may be time itself changing, or our participation in this
time/space which is changing. Maybe.

Also, I was demonstrating that I can do just as well as many
researchers in the conjecture department. I was, however,
hoping for a miracle. I was hoping that someone had some
answers from the abductee... or as Larry put it so eloquently,
why someone has not had the sense to ask... paraphrasing
of course. I hope I have offended no one and that I have not
acted too much as a researcher might act in this thread. If
so, I would have to kill me.

Thanking you all for your answers in truth and with all sincerity.

Jim Mortellaro







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                 Diamond-Shaped UFO, Macomb County, Michigan

From: Todd Lemire <tlemire@home.com>
Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 16:50:01 -0400
Fwd Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 22:21:24 -0400
Subject: Diamond-Shaped UFO, Macomb County, Michigan


Place: Macomb County Michigan

Date: 04/26/2000
Time: 2130
Duration: 10 Mins
# of Witnesses: 6
Shape: Diamond
Number of Craft: 1
Lights on Object: Yes

On April 28th, 2000 I received an e-mail report form from a
witness reporting a "bright light in the sky with 3 airplanes
near it, which disappeared and reappeared in a different spot in
the sky."

She goes on to state that "me and 5 others were outside at a
friends house and we were looking up at the sky because it was a
pretty clear night. We saw a very bright light in the sky, not
moving much, with about 3 airplanes or helicopters around it.
Then it disappeared. When me and my brother were walking back to
our house we saw it again with the airplanes around it again. We
don't know what it is, so I guess its a UFO.

If you have any further information concerning this sighting
please contact me at tlemire@home.com

Todd Lemire
Michigan UFO CENTRAL
http://members.home.net/tlemire/UFOCENTRAL.html
--
"The reason why the flying-saucer mystery has been-to put it
mildly-so exasperating, lies in the fact that we are all blind
men, nor can we hope to meet a sighted traveler who can help us.
But perhaps it is the beginning of knowledge to recognize our
blindness."

Aime' Michel - "Flying Saucers and the Straight Line Mystery"







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                            Re: Vehicle Shutdown?

From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 17:34:42 -0400 (EDT)
Fwd Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 22:26:34 -0400
Subject: Re: Vehicle Shutdown?


 >From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 01:31:29 -0400 (EDT)
 >Fwd Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 07:40:59 -0400
 >Subject: Vehicle Shutdown?

 >When someone in his or her car has an experience, the engine
 >invariably shuts down, lights go out, radios (transmit and/or
 >receivers) shut down. Invariably they come back on after the
 >event is over. I've read that the " ... engine suddenly starts
 >back up ..."

 >How does this happen? Has anyone asked if the engine started
 >without the engagement of the ignition switch? It just started
 >running again by itself? Has anyone heard of the engine starter
 >being used with or without the aid of the victim? Has anyone
 >specifically asked this question?

It's easier to answer to how the engines might stop. 2 or 3
years ago, the Air Force Scientific Advisory Board published a
sort of vision statement on the Web of the 21st century AF. This
included mention of a high-energy microwave weapon that they
planned to mount on planes that could stop internal combusion
engines. The plan was to stop vehicles in their tracks so it was
easier to bomb them. Your tax dollars at work.

The weapon was also reported capable of knocking out
instrumentation on other aircraft.

It struck me that there would have been no mention of such a
weapon unless it had already been tested and they knew it
worked. I suppose it is quite possible that this weapon was
developed without knowledge of UFO sightings where engines were
stopped or where aircraft instrumentation was disrupted, but I
doubt it. Rather I think the Air Force took careful notes and
set out to retro-engineer the effects. Apparently only 40 years
later they have been successful

Sometimes associated with reports of engine stoppages are
witness reports of feeling a "wave of heat" from the UFO.
Something like heat rashes are also sometimes reported. These
physiological effects are also what one would expect from a high
energy microwave beam. No doubt the Air Force made a note of
that as well.

The fact that it is relatively easily to retro-engineer engine
stoppages, instrumentation interference, and physiological heat
effects also reported in UFO cases I consider to be one of the
stronger pieces of evidence that UFOs are physically real craft
and the Air Force knows it. The effects seem tied to the
emission of high-energy microwaves from UFOs.

Physicist/engineer James McCampbell has long postulated that
these microwave emissions are important clues to the physics
underlying the flight of UFOs. Among other things, they also
could be tied to the ionization of air with associated electric
glows surrounding the objects, and their supersonic flight sans
sonic boom.

McCampbell also postulated engine restarting due to some pistons
still being under compression at the time of stoppage. But I
don't see how this theory would explain why the engine would
suddenly 'decide' to crank over with the remaining compression
only when the UFO left. I've also hand-cranked engines to
maximum compression while tuning them and they don't start on
their own when released.

If the engine didn't completely die in the presence of the UFO,
but was instead 'sputtering' or idling very roughly because of
interrupted ignition (this is also sometimes reported), then the
car 'restarting' or returning to normal once the UFO left would
be easier to explain.

David Rudiak






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                  Re: Roswell -- Filer's Files #12 -- 2000

From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 18:10:56 -0400 (EDT)
Fwd Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 22:58:46 -0400
Subject: Re: Roswell -- Filer's Files #12 -- 2000


 >From: James Bond Johnson <JBONJO@aol.com>
 >Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000 01:29:37 -0400 (EDT)
 >Fwd Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000 16:48:28 -0400
 >Subject: Re: Roswell -- Filer's Files #12 -- 2000


 >>Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2000 19:04:28 -0400 (EDT)
 >>From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@aol.com>
 >>Subject: Roswell -- Filer's Files #12 -- 2000
 >>To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >>>From: James Bond Johnson <JBONJO@aol.com>
 >>>Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 15:58:19 -0400 (EDT)
 >>>Fwd Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 16:57:56 -0400
 >>>Subject: Re: Filer's Files #12 -- 2000

<snip>

 >I also recall that I was surprised when I arrived at FWAAF and
 >found that the "saucer" already had arrived and was being
 >unpacked in General Ramey's office.. I also recall that by the
 >time I returned to the city room of the Star-Telegram shortly
 >after 5 p.m. more information on the story had arrived and that
 >is why I did not write anything ... even the cut lines to the
 >photos, as I normally did. All I did was to expedite developing
 >and printing of my photos to satisfy the wirephoto team that was
 >waiting to transmit the pictures.

See quotes below from your first two interviews in 1989, where
you very definitely and _repeatedly_ claimed that you were the
one who wrote the Star-Telegram article.

I don't have any strong opinions as to whether you did or didn't
write any of the Star-Telegram articles. Maybe you thought
things over after your initial interviews and decided that maybe
you didn't write the article after all. I don't have a big
problem with that. It was a long time ago.

However, the point here is that you originally took credit, then
changed your mind, and started falsely accusing Kevin Randle of
misquoting you. That's been your dirge for the last decade.

 >I recall also that there were
 >several phone messages on my desk from photo outfits wanting
 >exclusive shots. Apparently there was only one available to be
 >provided ... a duplicate shot of Ramey and Dubose, which has
 >come to be known as the "Bettman" shot or "Ramey/Dubose Grim".

 >>When originally interviewed back in 1989 and 1990, you several
 >>times claimed credit writing the story for the Star-Telegram
 >>(it's on tape).

 >David, this is entirely false! I have _never_ claimed to have
 >written _anything_ for the Star-Telegram about my time in
 >Ramey's office.

This is simply not true, as will be completely documented below.
Why don't we start with what you posted to UpDates only a few
days ago as a good illustration of how inconsistent your story
has been and how facilely you seem to change it when it suits
your purposes.

 >From: James Bond Johnson <JBONJO@aol.com>
 >Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 15:58:19 -0400 (EDT)
 >Fwd Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 16:57:56 -0400
 >Subject: Re: Filer's Files #12 -- 2000

 >....I also know that there is no evidence
 >that any [other] reporters ever arrived since ****no one
 >else filed any direct quotes as the result of a
 >personal interview of Ramey.****

This is _you_ again claiming personal credit for direct quotes
from Ramey as a result of a personal interview with him. It is
yet another reversal on your part, and seems designed to bolster
your other claim that you must have been the only reporter to
ever meet with Ramey.

 >That was a _misquotation_ by Randle to satisfy his own far-out
 >scenario.

In the light of your own statement just a few days ago, you have
some chutzpah accusing Randle of lying about similar statements
you made originally in 1989.

For example, in your first Feb. 27, 1989 with Randle, while you
two were discussing saucer news stories during the Roswell time
frame:

Randle: And then Roswell shows up on the same date.

JBJ:    Seven nine [July 9] is **my story** on the front page
         that was in early on that day -- that's when they
         debunked it.... [reads story from Star-Telgram].

In the second interview, March 24, 1989, Randle was reading from
an AP article on the Roswell incident, at which point you
interrupted him to say:

JBJ:    I think that was **my article** .

Randle: You think that was yours?

JBJ:    Yes, that **I filed,** 'cause **I filed an article with
         AP and that would have been it.**

It is interesting here how you originally spoke of "filing" the
story, just like a few days ago you spoke of "filing" direct
quotes from Ramey as a result of interviewing him.

Later Randle asked you to recite what happened after you were
sent to Ramey's, and in the course of this you said:

JBJ:    I'm looking at **my story** here, right on seven nine...

And still later in the same interview:

JBJ:    Do you have the articles from the Star-Telegram dated
         seven nine?

Randle: No, I have nothing from the Star-Telegram.

JBJ:    OK, this the article that **I wrote**. It was on the
         front page on seven nine ... it's quite a long article,
         and that was **my story**, and it quotes Major Jesse A.
         Marcel..."

Still later after you read the Star-Telegram article to Randle,
and Randle read back the press release from Roswell reported in
the papers:

JBJ:     Now it's entirely possible that I was briefed by the
          PIO -- probably was -- because those facts track with
          **my story**.

And less than a minute later after discussing whether other
reporters might have made it out to Ramey's

Randle: Obviously there were other people there.

JBJ:    Right, because it was a big story.... It would be
         entirely possible -- you see I went there not as a
         reporter, but there was not anybody else there. Then I
         went ahead and got the facts and came back and there
         wasn't any other reporter who wrote it for the
         Star-Telegram on that night. **I wrote that that night
         before leaving.** It was printed the next morning.

I counted you claiming credit for writing the Star-Telegram
article at least seven times in just that one interview.

 >As has been widely reported, Randle has _admitted_ in a letter
 >to me later that he _edited_ my statements.

The quotes above I just transcribed direct from tapes that are
unedited in any way. Randle did _not_ misquote or misrepresent
what you said.

As to what Randle _actually _wrote about "editing" in a letter
to you dated Feb. 16, 1991:


         "Enclosed is a copy of the interviews that we held with
         you concerning the events in Fort Worth. The tape has
         been edited for clarity and to eliminate some of the
         discussions we held that don't directly relate to the
         questions at hand."


All Randle said here was that he eliminated nonrelated material
from several hours of conversation. This struck me as a courtesy
on his part to save you time from having to wade through the
unrelated small talk.

"Edited" here to me means nothing more than "abridged," not
"altered" as you are obviously trying to spin it.

 >made in a phone call
 >which was _not_ identified as any kind of interview and for
 >which _no_ permission was given for him to quote me or to record
 >the conversation.

This is more complete nonsense.  For the second phone call of
3/24/89, in which you claimed credit 7 times for the
Star-Telegram article, Kevin Randle started off asking you, "Got
a couple of additional questions for you if you've got a couple
minutes. Do you mind if I record the conversation?"

To this you replied, "Not at all."

To which Randle responded, "OK, I wanted to get that on tape."
(which is from where I just transcribed it.)

There is absolutely no question that you gave Randle permission
to tape that conversation.

The first conversation was a month earlier, Feb. 27, 1989 and
was initiated by _you_, and in which you also claimed credit for
the article (see above).

You voluntarily contacted Randle by phone after being contacted
by an intermediary, Mrs. Betsey Hudon of the University of Texas
at Arlington Library. In a letter dated Feb 21, 1989, Mrs. Hudon
wrote you:

         "I recently had a call from Mr. Kevin Randle....
         Coincidentally, he is apparently researching the exact
         subject you called me about in October 1988. ...I did
         tell him a person from California had previously
         contacted me. Considering ethics I would not give him
         your name, so then he asked if I would forward the
         enclosed letter to you. I addressed it to you after it
         came to me. If you care to contact him that is up to
         you."

Your first interview with Randle was on Feb. 27, 1989, only six
days after Mrs. Hudon wrote her letter.

Randle followed-up with a thank-you letter to Mrs. Hudon:

         "First, I thought you should know that Mr. Johnson
         called me and we had a nice chat about his taking the
         pictures of Ramey and the wrecked saucer."

What exactly did you think was going to be discussed when you
first phoned Randle -- the weather? Do you really expect anybody
to believe that you didn't know you were being interviewed, you
a former newspaper reporter?

I think its obvious that you were more than willing to talk to
Randle and be quoted. Randle asked if he could tape you, and
without hesitation, you agreed. However, you try to make it
sound as if you were ambushed or were some sort of unwilling
participant.

 >Don't forget that I have _never_ written any account and have
 >not attempted to profit from my experiences in any way
 >whatsoever. So why would I ever change any story?

Only you know the reason why. The fact is your story has changed
significantly and continues to change. Whenever this is brought
up, you deliberately try to deflect the conversation onto
another track. It's like a broken record: the evil Kevin Randle
misquoted you. The evil Kevin Randle didn't get your permission
to tape the conversion. The evil Kevin Randle somehow altered
what was really said in an edited version of the tapes. Etc.,
etc.

The trouble is, it's all a pack of lies.

 >I only have tried to answer questions to the best of my
 >recollection when asked by several writers in order to hopefully
 >get the Roswell story correct. But for you and others to alter
 >the record for whatever reason certainly does not lead us in
 >that direction.

Anybody reading the above documentation of what really happened
can determine for themselves who's guilty of altering the record
here. If you want to get the Roswell story correct, you can
start by getting your own story straight for once.


David Rudiak








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              Re: P-47: Pelicans - Make Way for Flying Saucers!

From: James Easton <voyager@ukonline.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 01:30:05 +0100
Fwd Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 06:45:03 -0400
Subject: Re: P-47: Pelicans - Make Way for Flying Saucers!


 >Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 18:02:33 -0700
 >From: Ed Stewart <ufoindex@JPS.NET>
 >Subject: Pelicans - Make Way for Flying Saucers!
 >To: PROJECT-1947@LISTSERV.AOL.COM

Ed wrote:

 >Over the last couple of years I have collected at least
 >hundreds, if not thousands of images, of flying saucers in the
 >popular culture literature dating prior to the 1947 wave going
 >back to the front end of the 20th century. Ray Palmer, as the
 >editor of Amazing Stories, is on record that he "knew" what
 >flying saucers were in 1945 even before the advent of the modern
 >wave. I find this back cover (a new addition that just came to
 >my attention) of the August 1946 issue of Amazing Stories
 >fascinating. Here we have flying saucers, Ray Palmer, and a
 >Richard Shaver story ten months before Arnold's objects made
 >headlines.

 >http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=319644431


Ed,

Most interesting. The absolute irony is that Arnold's reported
sighting didn't involve saucer-shaped objects, yet effectively
became the genesis of 'flying saucers' because of his
misconstrued simile.

As I'm sure you appreciate, the earliest illustration of a disc-
shaped spacecraft could be that ' Science Wonder Stories ' cover
image from 1929, see:

http://web.ukonline.co.uk/voyager/wonder.jpg

A couple of related points...

So far as I'm aware, Arnold's full explanation of the 'flying
saucer' simile was only ever published in 'The Coming of the
Saucers':

    "I was fascinated by this formation of aircraft. They didn't
    fly like any aircraft I had ever seen before. In the first
    place, their echelon formation was backward from that
    practiced by our Air Force. The elevation of the first craft
    was greater than that of the last. They flew in a definite
    formation, but erratically. As I described them at the time,
    their flight was like speed boats on rough water or similar
    to the tail of a Chinese kite that I once saw blowing in the
    wind. Or maybe it would be best to describe their flight
    characteristics as very similar to a formation of geese, in a
    rather diagonal chain-like line, as if they were linked
    together. As I put it to newsmen in Pendleton, Oregon, they
    flew like a saucer would if you skipped it across the water.

    Another characteristic of these craft that made a tremendous
    impression on me was how they fluttered and sailed, tipping
    their wings alternately and emitting those very bright
    blue-white flashes from their surfaces".

It seems Arnold's description was referring to the formation
characteristics, essentially an undulating flight. From what
Arnold says, it appears all of the following attributes relate
to the same thing:

- like speed boats on rough water

- similar to the tail of a Chinese kite that I once saw blowing
   in the wind

- very similar to a formation of geese, in a rather diagonal
   chain-like line, as if they were linked together

- they flew like a saucer would if you skipped it across the
   water.

If originally he had instead related, "they flew like a stone
would if you skipped it across the water", the popularised
'flying saucer' portrayal would never had existed.

Without this, and it applies equally to Arnold's report in
entirety, would we therefore ever have seen the archetypal
'saucer'?

As highlighted, a 'flying disc(k)' had already been conceived in
science fiction art, however, when were flying saucers first
depicted with a dome, rather than as a flat disc?

Also, do we know when the 'double-saucer' - a la Billy Meier -
first appeared in print?


Separately, the cover of 'International UFO Reporter' [IUR],
March/April 1995 issue, featured a little known sketch which
Arnold drew in later years. It's arguably the most important
drawing he made and illustrates some varying perceptions of
those nine objects. Arnold claimed in his book - so far as I'm
aware for the first time - that one of the objects, the second
from last, was different from the others and this seems to be
the somewhat scimitar-shaped artefact.

This is shown in the IUR published sketch, along with depictions
similar to the sketch which accompanied Arnold's letter to the
Air Force. Trusting I can make available a scan of this, see:

http://web.ukonline.co.uk/voyager/iur.jpg

I've been looking at these in more detail and noticed Arnold
possibly indicates that the objects had a darker 'edge',
something which apparently isn't mentioned elsewhere.

He seems to have emphasised this in the three sketches from left
to right - particularly the third from left, where he has
deliberately added a line inside the 'front edge' - and
underneath the middle drawing has written "Black...". What
exactly follows is difficult to read and current opinion favours
he has noted, "Black if 400 ft".

As that doesn't readily make sense I'm not so sure it's correct
and any overall clarification would be welcome.

Incidentally, were 'Science Wonder Stories' really offering
three hundred dollars for a "short story" in 1929!


James.









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                            Re: Vehicle Shutdown?

From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net>
Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 17:54:34 -0700
Fwd Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 06:47:25 -0400
Subject: Re: Vehicle Shutdown?


 >Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 08:55:40 -0500
 >From: Loy Pressley <lkpres@koyote.com>
 >Subject: Re: Vehicle Shutdown?
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 06:07:43 -0700
 >>From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net>
 >>Subject: Re: Vehicle Shutdown?
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>>Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 08:49:12 -0300
 >>>From: Donald Ledger <dledger@ns.sympatico.ca>
 >>>Subject: Re: Vehicle Shutdown?
 >>>To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >>>are driven back down and since the ignition is still on the
 >>>engine fires up..... similar to catching the engine in gear.

 >>Yes! That was one of McCampbell's suggestions as well.

 >>Personally, I find it hard to understand in most cases.

 >>a magnetic field
 >>strong enough to close the ingnition relay (usually right on the
 >>starter itself) might also do the trick. Again, this is hard to
 >>envision. The field strength would have to me enormous, so other
 >>effects should then be noted

 >How about some sort of suspension of time as a means of stopping
 >the engine in midstroke and, when the UFO left the area, time
 >returns to normal and the engine continues to run?  That's just
 >a wild guess but it is possible. Because time would be
 >manipulated by the proximity of the UFO, the witness might not
 >be aware that anything happend.

 >Loy

Hello Loy:

That would be no wilder than some other speculations in this
regard. If we are to believe these stories, they we are faced
with technology we as humans do not yet possess; and all that
implies.

Imagine some campers putting out a small bonfire with a Halon
fire extinguisher, only to have it pop back to life minutes
later, or restarted with a simple match.

Now imagine some stone-age primitive hiding behind a bush and
watching all this! Indistinguishable from magic, once again.

Best

- Larry Hatch








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                            Re: Vehicle Shutdown

From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net>
Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 18:21:16 -0700
Fwd Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 06:49:56 -0400
Subject: Re: Vehicle Shutdown


 >Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 09:28:11 -0500 (CDT)
 >From: Brian Cuthbertson <brianc@fc.net>
 >Subject: Re: Vehicle Shutdown
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >>Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 01:31:29 -0400 (EDT)
 >>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >>Subject: Vehicle Shutdown?
 >>To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >>When someone in his or her car has an experience, the engine
 >>invariably shuts down, lights go out, radios (transmit and/or
 >>receivers) shut down. Invariably they come back on after the
 >>event is over. I've read that the " ... engine suddenly starts
 >>back up ..."

 >>How does this happen? Has anyone asked if the engine started
 >>without the engagement of the ignition switch? It just started
 >>running again by itself? Has anyone heard of the engine starter
 >>being used with or without the aid of the victim? Has anyone
 >>specifically asked this question?

 >Jim,

 >Just for the sake of shear unbridled speculation, I suggest
 >you're applying 20th century thinking to 30th (40th? 800th?)
 >century technology. Which naturally leads to confusion on the
 >part of us primitives.

 >I'm reminded of a story (sorry, can't cite the source; it was
 >one of those endless "UFOs revealed" - style books) wherein a
 >group of soldiers, in Argentina I think, encounters a landed
 >UFO. The lieutenant (John Wayne?) tells the men to wait, and
 >goes over the hill by himself to investigate. 20 minutes later
 >he returns dazed with 3 days worth of beard on his face.

 >Obviously a case of good old 30th (40th? 800th?) century time
 >compression/expansion/suppression at work.

 >So I'd venture that perhaps the motor restarts because it never
 >knew it had stopped - it was simply put in a suspended state of
 >some sort, timewise that is, and then allowed to continue when
 >appropriate. No 20th century starter required in such cases.

 >So there's some totally unprovable speculation for you, for what
 >little its worth.

 >-Brian

Hello Brian:

Yes, what stirs the imagination is technology way in advance of
ours. What a jumpstart that would be.

The bearded man story supposedly took place on 25 April 1977,
almost exactly 33 years ago, near Putre, Chile: 69:35W - 18:12S.
This would be in or near the Atacama desert of far northern
Chile, once part of Bolivia as I recall.

Some night lights flew about. One of several guards there (the
ranking non-com officer I think) went alone to investigate. He
was gone for something like 15 minutes. On returning he had a
5-day growth of beard. They estimate 5 days beard growth, where
he had been clean shaven before. His watch, probably the
mechanical Timex type that shows day of the month, indicated the
30th of the month, instead of the 25th.

Refs: IUR Volume 2, Number 7; LDLN #169 (Paris) No doubt there
are others.

Relativistic time dilation theories would have the man gone 5
days say, according to those left behind. He would have only
aged a little bit, some minutes perhaps. Again, his watch would
indicate likewise.

The Putre story is the exact opposite, reverse time dilation!

If some tabloid invented this story, they got their physics bass
ackwards!

If this actually happened, and note the sources IUR and LDLN,
then we are faced with some serious time manipulation.


Best wishes

-Larry Hatch








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                            Re: Vehicle Shutdown

From: Roy J Hale <royjhale@netscapeonline.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 14:40:22 +0100
Fwd Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 06:52:59 -0400
Subject: Re: Vehicle Shutdown


 >Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 09:28:11 -0500 (CDT)
 >From: Brian Cuthbertson <brianc@fc.net>
 >Subject: Re: Vehicle Shutdown
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >So I'd venture that perhaps the motor restarts because it never
 >knew it had stopped - it was simply put in a suspended state of
 >some sort, timewise that is, and then allowed to continue when
 >appropriate. No 20th century starter required in such cases.

 >So there's some totally unprovable speculation for you, for what
 >little its worth.

 >-Brian


Hi,

Can we safely say that advanced ETs of some kind are behind such
actions?

And if so does that mean ET has been found?

Or on the other hand could sceptics claim this is a new
undiscovered time suspension anomaly we are dealing with?

Roy..

Think About it...







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                     UFO sighting - Belmont County, Ohio

From: Kenny Young <ufo@fuse.net>
Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 23:08:00 -0400
Fwd Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 06:58:56 -0400
Subject: UFO sighting - Belmont County, Ohio


Date of Event: Friday, April 28, 2000
Time of Event: 9:40 p.m. E.D.T.
Subject: UFO Sighting - four witnesses
Location: St. Clairsville, Ohio [Belmont County]

SUMMARY.... Two witnesses report visual observation of
unidentified aircraft described as being triangular in shape
with a total of seven (7) lights on its surface. Three of the
lights were red,  three were green and there was one
yellow-amber colored light which pulsated or rotated. All of the
lights blinked and appeared to be synchronized (sp?). For the
length of time the object was observed, it traveled at twice the
height of the trees, or appx. 100 feet off the ground. It was
reported to be the size of  "a jet airplane" and made no sound.
The craft traveled in a west to west-northwest direction. It
covered appx. 4 miles in 50 minutes and just casually left the
area.

Description: Two sisters, Nora and Betty, had just exited the
bowling alley in St. Clairsville, Ohio after a championship
game. As they were heading to Betty's vehicle Nora spotted the
triangular shaped object almost hovering above them. They
watched the object for a few moments and then got into their car
to head to the local Wal Mart. They noticed the craft appeared
to follow them. Upon exiting a store to approach their parked
vehicle, they noticed the object's very slow progression to the
west. Both women got back into the car and headed to Nora's
where her sister had to drop her off.

Nora went into her house, put her bowling ball away, and went
back outside to see if she could see the craft. She could not.
The last time she and her sister could spot the object was at
10:00 p.m. Nora then went inside to call her daughter [who lives
just up the road] to see if she could see it. Her daughter,
Jill, and Jill's son Chad, both watched the craft from between
10:05 and 10:30 p.m. As Jill and Chad watched it, they observed
it taking two small 90 degree turns. First time to the right and
the second time back to the left.

The first of the two witnesses, Nora, states the following:
"...it was not a plane, it was no blimp. I'll probably never get
to see it again either. I'm going out tonight (April 29'th,
2000) and look. I know what I seen."

Special Note: This UFO report was submitted via E-mail
advisement by Don Keating, a researcher from Newcomerstown,
Ohio. Don Keating has a website located at the following URL
address:

     http://www.angelfire.com/oh/ohiobigfoot/home.html







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                            Re: Vehicle Shutdown?

From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net>
Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 20:13:08 -0700
Fwd Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 07:04:18 -0400
Subject: Re: Vehicle Shutdown?


 >Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 17:34:42 -0400 (EDT)
 >From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@aol.com>
 >Subject: Re: Vehicle Shutdown?
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >>Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 01:31:29 -0400 (EDT)
 >>Fwd Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 07:40:59 -0400
 >>Subject: Vehicle Shutdown?

 >>When someone in his or her car has an experience, the engine
 >>invariably shuts down, lights go out, radios (transmit and/or
 >>receivers) shut down. Invariably they come back on after the
 >>event is over. I've read that the " ... engine suddenly starts
 >>back up ..."

 >>How does this happen? Has anyone asked if the engine started
 >>without the engagement of the ignition switch? It just started
 >>running again by itself? Has anyone heard of the engine starter
 >>being used with or without the aid of the victim? Has anyone
 >>specifically asked this question?

 >It's easier to answer to how the engines might stop. 2 or 3
 >years ago, the Air Force Scientific Advisory Board published a
 >sort of vision statement on the Web of the 21st century AF. This
 >included mention of a high-energy microwave weapon that they
 >planned to mount on planes that could stop internal combusion
 >engines. The plan was to stop vehicles in their tracks so it was
 >easier to bomb them. Your tax dollars at work.

 >The weapon was also reported capable of knocking out
 >instrumentation on other aircraft.

 >It struck me that there would have been no mention of such a
 >weapon unless it had already been tested and they knew it
 >worked. I suppose it is quite possible that this weapon was
 >developed without knowledge of UFO sightings where engines were
 >stopped or where aircraft instrumentation was disrupted, but I
 >doubt it. Rather I think the Air Force took careful notes and
 >set out to retro-engineer the effects. Apparently only 40 years
 >later they have been successful

 >Sometimes associated with reports of engine stoppages are
 >witness reports of feeling a "wave of heat" from the UFO.
 >Something like heat rashes are also sometimes reported. These
 >physiological effects are also what one would expect from a high
 >energy microwave beam. No doubt the Air Force made a note of
 >that as well.

 >The fact that it is relatively easily to retro-engineer engine
 >stoppages, instrumentation interference, and physiological heat
 >effects also reported in UFO cases I consider to be one of the
 >stronger pieces of evidence that UFOs are physically real craft
 >and the Air Force knows it. The effects seem tied to the
 >emission of high-energy microwaves from UFOs.

 >Physicist/engineer James McCampbell has long postulated that
 >these microwave emissions are important clues to the physics
 >underlying the flight of UFOs. Among other things, they also
 >could be tied to the ionization of air with associated electric
 >glows surrounding the objects, and their supersonic flight sans
 >sonic boom.

 >McCampbell also postulated engine restarting due to some pistons
 >still being under compression at the time of stoppage. But I
 >don't see how this theory would explain why the engine would
 >suddenly 'decide' to crank over with the remaining compression
 >only when the UFO left. I've also hand-cranked engines to
 >maximum compression while tuning them and they don't start on
 >their own when released.

 >If the engine didn't completely die in the presence of the UFO,
 >but was instead 'sputtering' or idling very roughly because of
 >interrupted ignition (this is also sometimes reported), then the
 >car 'restarting' or returning to normal once the UFO left would
 >be easier to explain.


Hello Dave, Jim and others:

Dr. Richard Haines has co-authored (with Paul Norman of VUFORS)
an article published in the Journal of Scientific Exploration
(JSE V.14 #1 pp 19-33) which is published by the SSE  (Sturrock,
Stanford et al.)

http://www.scientificexploration.org/

He presents some new evidence indicating that separate observers
saw the Cessna passing with a large green-lit object pacing it
overhead.

According to pilot Valentich, (2-way radio transcript) his
engine began "rough idling... coughing... ".

Presumably, partial loss of power caused the plane to lose
altitude until it crashed at sea, not too far offshore.

I am using data from this article to try and get better
coordinates for the initial encounter with the UFO. It would
seem that the crash site was further East than I had imagined
it, and miles away from the first sighting.

Once again, we have a UFO at close quarters, apparently
affecting a piston engine.


Best wishes

- Larry Hatch








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                  Cydonian Imperative: Analysis Of The Fort

From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 21:02:25 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 07:08:57 -0400
Subject: Cydonian Imperative: Analysis Of The Fort


Analysis of the 'Fort' as a Possible Structural Ruin

by Mac Tonnies


The MGS images of the formation known as the 'Fort' were
received with disillusionment. Many expected high-resolution
views to illuminate the 'interior,' or 'courtyard,' conveyed by
the Viking photos of the same object. Similarly, evident
'notched' walls were hoped to help vindicate the Artificiality
Hypothesis by confronting the Mars community with undeniable
architectural detail.

We now know that the 'courtyard' was a 'trick of light and
shadow'--the only such trick discovered in Cydonia to date. The
Fort's seeming 'walls' are in truth remarkably straight defiles
in an apparent platform that elevates the rest of the formation,
including the oddly shaped mass responsible for casting the
'courtyard's' triangular shadow.

So is the Fort out of the running as a potential artifact? I
argue that it is not. Indeed, this formation sports several
peculiarities that seem quite 'Cydonian' in their uniqueness and
placement on the Martian surface. Not the least of these details
is the aforementioned 'platform,' an element we see clearly
exhibited in the Face (both Viking and MGS resolutions) as well
as the 'Rounded Formation' (alternately known as the 'Platform
Pyramid') to the far west of the City complex. Dr. Mark
Carlotto, in his masterful overview of the Cydonia controversy
('The Martian Enigmas: A Closer Look'), presents a revealing
look at the Rounded Formation, Fort and Face, all of which
exhibit identical alignment and near-identical size. This could
represent a geological anomaly (or, more accurately, three
geological anomalies conforming to a fortuitous 'architectural'
motif) or it could indicate an actual aesthetic/structural
trope.

I argue that a close examination of the Fort's perimeter, in
conjunction with Carlotto's 360 degree rotation of the Fort,
provides evidence in keeping with the Artificiality Hypothesis.

Six clearly faceted sides are present around the perimeter of
the Fort. Those to the bottom and far right (see illustration)
are relatively difficult to make out, primarily, I suspect,
because of their lack of shadow. The defiles along the right
side of the Fort, on the other hand, are quite clear. It was the
longest of these that gave the appearance of a structured 'wall'
in the Viking images, partly due to random details below the
resolution of the Viking camera (such as a decent-size crater to
the Fort's far-right).

The only portion of the Fort lacking clear delineation from the
surrounding terrain is the lower left portion, compared
illustratively as 'rocket fins' in Richard Hoagland's analysis
of the Fort in his book 'The Monuments of Mars.' These consist
of three equidistant outcroppings, and their brightness is due
to sunlight hitting the Fort's southernmost region. Evident in
Carlotto's rotation (but not in the two-dimensional MGS data),
these 'fins' are located at the Fort's highest elevation; the
rest of the formation, consistent with the original impression
of a 'collapsed structure,' is interestingly sunken, with a
perimeter higher than the remainder of the formation. If the
Fort is a naturally occurring mesa, this sunken aspect is, at
the very least, unique.

Also in need of a natural explanation are the clearly defined
angles that isolate the Fort. While many of the formations on
Mars (some in Cydonia) exhibit straight sides, this effect
usually disintegrates upon close inspection. The presence of six
sides set at angles to one another, rather than the usual one or
two that characterize purely natural wind-shaped mesas) is quite
unusual. Furthermore, there is evidence of possible 'terraces'
along the lower right-hand edge of the Fort. 'Terraces' are
nothing new at Cydonia. We've seen them adorning the Main City
Pyramid as well as the feature dubbed the 'Hollow' by Carlotto
(a fascinating formation that has an easily distinguishable
rectangular 'courtyard' apparently engraved into its top, along
with other geometric anomalies).

But what of the bright, chewed-looking gouges at the Fort's
lower left? By printing a picture of the Fort and rotating it, I
was interested to find that the sunken, 'amorphic' portion of
the Fort wasn't as natural-looking as I had thought: a line
drawn through its center (through the centermost 'tailfin' and
out through a centrally located 'U'-shaped feature) reveals two
halves that, while not identical, appear very similar.

When examined under rotation, the impression that this roughly
bisymmetric formation atop the Fort's platform was once a much
more architecturally coherent structure cannot be shaken off.
The two halves discussed above may well be the flattened, eroded
remains of a faceted formation such as the Main City Pyramid,
placed on an artificial platform to maximize interior space or
prevent flooding (recall suggestive formations like the
dolphinoid pond north of the Fort and Main City Pyramid, which
could have been easily viewed from the upper half of the
platform).

If this is indeed a collapsed structure, then the remainder of
the faceted perimeter platform would have provided an expansive
terrace upon which a population could have looked across the
Cydonian desert (or, possibly, lake) to the Face. Thus, there is
some indirect aesthetic confirmation for the geometry we see in
the Fort, with its long wall exactly paralleling those of the
Face. This speculation is consistent with the confirmation that
the Face retains a decided face-like appearance when viewed from
the surface (produced independently through both Carlotto's
shape-from-shading algorithm and Kynthia's recent analog
sculpture based on the single existing MGS Face photo).

It's fascinating to note that most of the features suspected of
being of intelligent manufacture are of the correct size to be,
literally, 'forts' designed to protect a population from
environmental harm. I personally suspect this is what the Main
City Pyramid, D&M Pyramid and 'Hollow' features represent. This
is a testable theory; new images of enigmatic details (i.e. the
apparent tunnel leading into the base of the D&M Pyramid) could
very well supply us with enough evidence to make a manned
mission to Cydonia worth the expense and effort.

Our next opportunity to reimage Cydonia occurs on May 7, 2000. I
urge readers to sign the ongoing petition dedicated to making
sure Malin Space Science Systems is forthcoming with any new
relevant data.

=====
Mac Tonnies
239 E. Sea
Independence, MO 65050
816-833-5910
macbot@yahoo.com
http://www.geocities.com/macbot/mtvi.html









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                            Re: Vehicle Shutdown?

From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 21:13:08 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 07:12:07 -0400
Subject: Re: Vehicle Shutdown?


 >Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 17:34:42 -0400 (EDT)
 >From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@aol.com>
 >Subject: Re: Vehicle Shutdown?
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >>Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 01:31:29 -0400 (EDT)
 >>Fwd Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 07:40:59 -0400
 >>Subject: Vehicle Shutdown?

<snip>

 >The fact that it is relatively easily to retro-engineer engine
 >stoppages, instrumentation interference, and physiological
 >heat effects also reported in UFO cases I consider to be one
 >of the stronger pieces of evidence that UFOs are physically
 >real craft and the Air Force knows it.

<snip>

Mark Davenport adds an interesting slant to this phenomenon in
his book, 'Visitors from Time'. He purports that the energy
needed to jam a car's ignition would be sufficient to render it
useless. The problem as he sees it are all of the reports of car
ignitions coming right back on after the UFO has left the scene.

Davenport theorizes that UFOs are surrounded by gravity/time
distortion fields and that vehicle shutdown is caused not by
some exotic energy, but rather the slow-down of electrons in the
car's ignition system as it becomes part of the UFO's
gravitational field. When the UFO leaves, time becomes 'normal'
again and the car starts up with no damage.

My apologies if this idea has already been brought up.



=====
Mac Tonnies
239 E. Sea
Independence, MO 65050
816-833-5910
macbot@yahoo.com
http://www.geocities.com/macbot/mtvi.html







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              P-47: Re: Pelicans - Make Way for Flying Saucers!

From: Ed Stewart <ufoindex@JPS.NET>
Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 09:42:21 -0700
Fwd Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 08:29:33 -0400
Subject: P-47: Re: Pelicans - Make Way for Flying Saucers!


Theo Paijmans wrote:

 >Hi Ed, I have a wonder stories from 1936 with a flying
 >saucer... let's face it, the images of flying discs were there
 >long before 1947, in speculative and fantastic fiction.

 >But it is a fascinating area of research!

Wonder Stories, together with its predecessors Air Wonder
Stories and Science Wonder Stories (all edited by Hugo
Gernsback, creator of Amazing Stories) were a gold mine for
flying saucer images on its covers and internal story
illustrations. Many were by Frank Paul who also drew the back
cover to the 1946 August issue presented in the last missive.

If one was to add globular and spheroid images also to be
representative of 'flying saucers', just like Fate magazine did
with its second issue cover Summer 1948 depicting the allegedly
true story, 'Crow River Flying Disk' and a Kenneth Arnold
article 'Are Space Visitors Here?', just about every issue of
Wonder Stories during its duration from the late 20s to April
1936, has somewhere in its internal illustrations and/or cover
design something that could be pointed to as a 'flying saucer'.

It is not that the images were there before 1947, it is that
they were there before 1947 in vast and generous amounts, almost
to the point of gratuitous bombardment. But, as we have
repeatedly been told fiction is not relevant to ufology and it
is best if UFO researchers ignore that influence. Let's continue
to pretend that the 'reality' of UFOs which manifested itself in
a powerful way in 1947 had nothing to do with popular culture
and maybe the popular culture of the 40s-30s-20s will fade
away.

Ed Stewart
__________

Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 19:44:55 +0200
From: Theo Paijmans <th.paijmans@WXS.NL>
Subject: Re: Pelicans - Make Way for Flying Saucers!
To: PROJECT-1947@LISTSERV.AOL.COM


Hi Ed,

Not only that; the idea of advanced flying craft and superbeings
or extraterrestrials has been here with us since god knows when
- in speculative and science fiction I mean, not von Dniken
stuff:) -

Take a peek at Eberhart's biblio in the section pre 1952
contactees, read what Blavatsky and other esoterists had to say,
take in mind Fort's and Tsiolkovski's statements and peruse
Crowe's the extraterrestrial life debate and ufology is stripped
of its sole claim of the theory that UFOs represent nuts and
bolts ET craft. Which of course we do not know (yet?)

Michel Meurger has written some fascinating articles on 19th and
early 20th century SF and alien abductees; Meheust did the same
and Vallee looked on the similarity between fairy lore and
ufology. But then again, Vallee earlier on was an Rosicrucian
follower (see his 'Forbidden Science') so his discovery of the
'Ships of Magonia' comes as no surprise to me, as it has been
set down in Comte de Gabalis - which I also have - a book that
was often studied by neo-Rosicrucian groups. In his Forbidden
Science we read some fascinating accounts of Hynek's esoteric
predilections and we might even wonder, what basis is there in
'sane ufology' when the rules were pretty much set down by a
bunch of esoterists? Haha!

Best,

Theo Paijmans
_____________

Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 09:36:21 +0100
From: Hilary Evans <hevans@SATVEN.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Pelicans - Make Way for Flying Saucers!
To: PROJECT-1947@LISTSERV.AOL.COM


Dear Ed,

I have found an excellent way to lose friends! I do a slide
lecture which shows that _every_ aspect of the flying saucer era
had been anticipated by the authors and artists of the pre-1947
era - mostly, as you rightly say, from those wonderful American
pulps.  But I can do you a flying saucer from 1910, and some
pretty good intergalactic spacecraft from a FAMILY MAGAZINE of
the 1870s. (Not to mention an abduction from the 18th century)

Presenting this lecture at a UFO conference is an effective way
of separating the wanna-believers from the true inquirers...

regards

Hilary Evans
____________

Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 12:44:28 +0200
From: Theo Paijmans <th.paijmans@WXS.NL>
Subject: Re: Pelicans - Make Way for Flying Saucers!
To: PROJECT-1947@LISTSERV.AOL.COM


 >Brad Sparks wrote:

 >Hi Ed,

 >I think the short answer to your provocative and intriguing
 >point is that actual anomalous UFOs don't look like either the
 >pre-saucer era (pre-1947) media depictions (such as Amazing
 >Stories) nor like the post-saucer era media depictions. The
 >Amazing Stories drawings certainly must have had an impact on
 >popular impressions of "flying saucers" but the real sightings
 >of unexplained incidents may well be entirely different -- it
 >certainly bears study.  These sci fi images don't look like
 >Swedish ghost rockets or Arnold's bat - or crescent shapes or
 >Sperry's spindle or cloud cigars, for example (I'm not saying
 >these are ET craft either, just anomalous).

 >Regards,

 >Brad


Hi Larry,

You want bats? Sci Fi has them. You want rockets? Sci Fi has
them. Spindle-shaped, cigar-shaped or cylinder-shaped ones? Just
found a German science fiction book from 1930, entitled, 'Flight
To Venus', with a large cylinder-shaped space ship on its cover.

Believe me, it's all there, and well into the 19th century. Look
at Robida's drawings for example.

Best,

Theo
__________

Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 13:42:02 +0200
From: Theo Paijmans <th.paijmans@WXS.NL>
Subject: Re: Pelicans - Make Way for Flying Saucers!
To: PROJECT-1947@LISTSERV.AOL.COM


Werner Walter wrote:

 >On the same line - has anyone a picture-gallery of such rare
 >pictorial information on the net?

 >I�m also search since years pictures like this and have found
 >only few interessting items in "Saucer Attack!" by Eric & Leif
 >Nesheim (I�m sure most of you will known this excellent small
 >booklet). I need such material like Hilary urgently for
 >slide-presentations in the public-zone.

 >Greetings from Germany

 >Werner Walter

Werner,

You should go out and study German and Austrian science fiction
between 1900 - 1940. Hell, you live there, I am only a neighbour
so to say. You will be amazed. Ever heard of Wilhelm Friedrich
Mader (whose Wunderwelten was translated into English in 1930 as
Distant Worlds) Alfred Daiber, C. Grunert, Kurt Lasswitz, Otto
Willy Gail, Max Valier, Alexei Tolstoi, Bruno Brgel, Thea von
Harbou and such?

Did you forget 'Algol', the German SF movie from 1920, or
'Metropolis', 'die Frau im Mond' etc.?

Ever heard of the magazine die Rakete which featured a nice
flying saucer blueprint, elsewehere nice eggshaped spaceships in
its 1927 issues? They were shooting rockets in the air around
Berlin at that time... would become the V2 in the end...

Anyway, I have found other things from the Germany of the 20's
that make Adamski, Williamson and Dana Edwards look really silly
(yup, even more so) and pale in comparison. I am writing a book
about all this now.

Best,

Theo Paijmans
_____________








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                      Jeff Rense Weekly E-News 4-29-00

From: Rense E-News <jocelyn@dewittec.net>
Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 18:39:47 -0500
Fwd Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 07:38:33 -0400
Subject: Jeff Rense Weekly E-News  4-29-00


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                      Jeff Rense Weekly E-News
----------------------------------------------------------------

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                       4-30-00 thru 5-6-00

           Guests, Announcements, Week's Top Stories
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                      * FROM JEFF'S DESK *

With the retirement of Art Bell, I have received literally
hundreds of emails asking that I 'take over' Art's program. For
all of you who have written, please accept my gratitude
appreciation for your kind sentiments and encouragement. For any
number of reasons, that will not happen.  Not only do I work with
another network but I have always been committed to bringing my
program's guests and information to a PRIME TIME evening
audience... from 7-10pm Pacific.

HOWEVER, in light of Art's departure, the Talk Radio Network
Which syndicates my program, has made some major decisions this
week which will help fill the late night void and create new
options for stations in the time period of 10pm - 3am Pacific.

Beginning Monday, May 8, TRN will begin immediately refeeding my
7-10 pm Pacific nightly program from 10-1am Pacific.  This will
give stations from coast-to-coast the opportunity to insert our
program in Art's former time period if they wish.

Further, TRN will also rebroadcast the first two hours of my
program from the preceding night, between the hours of 1am - 3am
time.  This will give stations full 5 hours of our program...in
Art's old time period of 10pm to 3am Pacific, Monday through
Friday.

All told, our program will now be available to radio stations
across the country eight full hours each weekday night.  Seeing
a definite market need, TRN is demonstrating the same kind of
insight and leadership that it used during the many years it
broadcast Art's great show and built his affiliate base to over
400 stations.

What can you do?  If you want to hear this program in your city,
please call your local talk station Program Director and tell
them our program is now additionally available from 10pm -3am
Pacific, Monday through Friday, over the Talk Radio Network.

Again, please accept my appreciation for all of the incredibly
supportive and encouraging email.  I only wish I had the time
to answer each of you. Meantime, let's all keep moving forward
and availing ourselves of the kind of knowledge our government
and monopoly media don't want us to have.

                  --<>--   --<<<+>>>--  --<>--

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                        * GUEST CORNER *

Editor's note: Jeff's extraordinary guests have so much to say,
often they can't cover it all on the air. We are proud to bring
you this new section in which we will present interesting essays
and articles from them.

The following is a compilation from two personal exchanges with
Mr. Howard Middleton-Jones yesterday and today, which he gave
permission to reprint:

     Re Jeff Rense show, we have some incredible info for you,
     mind blowing and far reaching, no wonder we have been
     hounded by certain, shall we say, "agencies"...continual
     hacking and worming going on etc .

     I have a special web site I am setting up just for the
     show so people can access while we talk, where I have
     tried to simplify matters and offered links to all our
     data etc. We will also have the latest pics up on
     ambilac site by Monday night too.

     Did you ever wanted to know where you originated from?
     and do you want to know where we are going? Well
     Monday night we will tell you!! It's all testable
     data, and it is all laid out in the Giza plateau and
     the Mayan sites (they were working to a different star
     chart, but the same end - 21st Dec 2012..or, a new
     beginning - believe it!)

     BTW, The guy who wrote the book(*) tried several publishers,
     but the IRS beat him to it, he self published 100 copies
     and a friend made copies after he died in shall we say
     'unusual' circumstances. I believe there may be one
     survivor, also there is a Philadelphia experiment
     connection here! Time as we know it will change on 2012,
     what do you think Dulce and Mentauke are fighting for
     Zero time on 2012, they will be able to go where they
     want at last!!!

     Problem is, old planet earth is in a real prime centre,
     so we are not the only ones who are interested...do
     you get it? I always wondered why this little 3rd rock
     from the sun was so important...it is its placement in
     The cosmos - DEAD CENTRE of our part of the universe...
     wow! No wonder they are waiting in line beyond Jupiter
     for a good seat!!

     If you get chance I would, NOW, take a look at what is
     going on around our sun, apart from the incredible sight
     of Jupiter lining up, there are some awesome satellite
     pics (while they last!) of some serious anomalies.

     Early this morning an unidentified comet - looking object,
     planet sized, was seen heading towards sun...now there
     seems to be another from 12 o'clock position.

     There are a few more anomalies, but these we should be
     taking some note of. If we get time on Monday we may try
     to explain this activity...and I may put up a brief note
     on that links page
     (http://www.freeyellow.com/members7/howardmj/links.html)
     PS Pass onto Jeff

     Cheers
     Howard

     =====
     Howard Middleton-Jones
     howardmj@yahoo.com
     http://www.ambilac.com/
     http://www.freeyellow.com/members7/howardmj/

     (*) David H. Lewis

Show Guests: if you would like to contribute, please contact
us at: jocelyn@dewittec.net?Subject=guest_article

                   --<>--   --<<<+>>>--  --<>--

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              essence of time?   -Karan Varsheni.

                  --<>--  --<<<+>>>--  --<>--

                          Cosmiverse!
Space, Science and Technology news delivered daily. Free
personalized home page, email account, scheduler, paranormal
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                  --<>--  --<<<+>>>--  --<>--

                        * TOP STORIES *

           Just a few of last week's most intriguing!
                      http://sightings.com

   * WACO EXCLUSIVE REVELATIONS - Attorney Talks After FLIR
         Expert Apparently Murdered
   * Beijing Issues New War Threat Against Taiwan
   * US Company Says It Can Remove Major Cancer-Causing
         Substances From Tobacco
   * China Intercepts US RC-135 Spying On Military Movement
   * Laptop 'Cyber Judge And Jury' Delivers 'Justice' On The
         Spot In Brazil
   * NBC Cameraman Hospitalized After Beating By INS/Border
         Patrol Agents At Elian Raid
   * New, Graphic Chemtrail Photos Raise More Questions
   * Balanced Critique Of Alford vs Sitchin and von Daniken
   * Gun Industry Files Major Suit Against Federal Government
   * Boy Survives Plane Crash - Motorists Ignore His Waving
         For Help
   * NAB And NPR Join To Crush 'Micro Radio Threat'
   * 9 of 10 Americans Embracing Alternative Therapies
   * Breakthrough In The War Against The Fraudulent US Income Tax
   * Breakthrough - Bedini's Brilliant Formation Of Negative
         Resistors In Batteries
   * Feds Ask Public To Stop West Nile Virus By Disrupting
         Mosquito Breeding Cycle
   * Columbine Massacre Footage Released With Rock Soundtrack!
   * 'Miracle' Hi-Tech Crops Causing Widespread Brain Impairment
   * Viking Mars Lander Photo Color-Altering Revealed
   * US Supreme Court To Reconsider The Right To Remain Silent !
   * UN Chief Annan Says Nuclear War Is 'A Real Possibility'
   * Earth Day Is Evil?
   * Pokemon Cards Blasted By UK Educator As 'Exploiting Children'
   * The Banking Industry Exposed...In Its Own Words 76 Years Ago
   * Most Detailed Groom Lake/Area 51 Images Show Major Expansion
   * The Elian Fiasco - An Indefensible Assault On Basic Rights
   * 'Brainwashing In Store For Boy...'
   * You Thought This Was A Free Country?
   * Was Jesus Christ Put To Death At The Beginning Of The World?

Read these stories and more at http://www.sightings.com

                   --<>--   --<<<+>>>--  --<>--

                        The Books of Enoch

The Enochian language has been called "the language of the Gods."
These incredible books are incredibly rich and varied, they are
incomparable for the eye-opening knowledge they contain.
       http://www.hiddenmysteries.com/redir/index12.html

                   --<>--  --<<<+>>>--  --<>--

                     * THIS WEEK'S GUESTS *
                          4-23 thru 4-28

(Please note Jeff's Guest schedule can change due to late
breaking stories, etc)

SUN 4-30
    From New Zealand: Bruce Cathie:  Earth's Grid System Mapped

MON 5-1
    From England: Howard Middleton-Jones,
    From Canada:  James Wilkie:  Giza Revelations, Part Two

TUE 5-2
    Rodney Stich:  The Drugging Of America

WED 5-3
    Fred Singer:  The Global Warming Myth
    From England:  Gordon Creighton: Veteran Ufologist

THU 5-4
    MUFON National Report
    Jim Bouck:  State Director, New York
    Richard Moss:  Asst State Director, Minnesota
    Kathleen Anderson:  MUFON Seattle and MUFON Email Director

FRI 5-5
    Lyndon LaRouche:  Democrat Presidential Candidate
    John Hogue:  5-5-2000 And Prophecy

Live Real Audio Broadcasts & Archives: http://www.sightings.com

                   --<>--   --<<<+>>>--  --<>--

                        David H. Lewis books

Hidden Mysteries of the Pyramid, Beyond Our Galaxy, The Universal
Oneness, Cities of the Inner Earth, Days Before Tomorrow,
Survival of the Remnant   http://www.hiddenmysteries.com

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              Re: P-47: Pelicans - Make Way for Flying Saucers!

From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net>
Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 06:00:11 -0700
Fwd Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 10:14:02 -0400
Subject: Re: P-47: Pelicans - Make Way for Flying Saucers!


 >Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 09:42:21 -0700
 >From: Ed Stewart <ufoindex@JPS.NET>
 >Subject: Re: Pelicans - Make Way for Flying Saucers!
 >To: PROJECT-1947@LISTSERV.AOL.COM

 >Theo Paijmans wrote:

 >>Hi Ed, I have a wonder stories from 1936 with a flying
 >>saucer... let's face it, the images of flying discs were there
 >>long before 1947, in speculative and fantastic fiction.

 >>But it is a fascinating area of research!

 >Wonder Stories, together with its predecessors Air Wonder
 >Stories and Science Wonder Stories (all edited by Hugo
 >Gernsback, creator of Amazing Stories) were a gold mine for
 >flying saucer images on its covers and internal story
 >illustrations. Many were by Frank Paul who also drew the back
 >cover to the 1946 August issue presented in the last missive.

 >If one was to add globular and spheroid images also to be
 >representative of 'flying saucers', just like Fate magazine did
 >with its second issue cover Summer 1948 depicting the allegedly
 >true story, 'Crow River Flying Disk' and a Kenneth Arnold
 >article 'Are Space Visitors Here?', just about every issue of
 >Wonder Stories during its duration from the late 20s to April
 >1936, has somewhere in its internal illustrations and/or cover
 >design something that could be pointed to as a 'flying saucer'.

 >It is not that the images were there before 1947, it is that
 >they were there before 1947 in vast and generous amounts, almost
 >to the point of gratuitous bombardment. But, as we have
 >repeatedly been told fiction is not relevant to ufology and it
 >is best if UFO researchers ignore that influence. Let's continue
 >to pretend that the 'reality' of UFOs which manifested itself in
 >a powerful way in 1947 had nothing to do with popular culture
 >and maybe the popular culture of the 40s-30s-20s will fade
 >away.

 >Ed Stewart

<snip>

Please click on the following URL:

http://www.jps.net/larryhat/YDAY47.html

Let me know if this looks anything like the influences of
Science Fiction, or rather some objective set of events.

I would argue for the latter, but please see the image first.
The data there results from a lot of hard work of Jan Aldrich
and others have turned libraries upside down trying ( without
explicitly knowing it ) to flatten this "curve".

Instead, I see a spike looking more like the Seattle Space
Needle. I am open to all mundane explanations, but I'm at a
loss to find one so far.


Best wishes

- Larry Hatch








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                       Re: Does Mars Have A Blue Sky?

From: Joe Murgia <Ufojoe1@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 10:31:56 -0400 (EDT)
Fwd Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 11:22:56 -0400
Subject: Re: Does Mars Have A Blue Sky?


 >Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 10:52:32 -0400 (EDT)
 >From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >Subject: Re: Does Mars Have A Blue Sky?
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >Sorry, Lan, nothing personal, but I have to admit that I made
 >up my mind about the Face on Mars-JPL picture conspiracy long
 >ago

Thanks for finally admitting it. That says a lot.

Joe in Tampa









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                       Re: Does Mars Have A Blue Sky?

From: Lan Fleming <apollo18@swbell.net>
Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 09:54:56 -0600
Fwd Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 11:58:01 -0400
Subject: Re: Does Mars Have A Blue Sky?


 >Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 10:52:32 -0400 (EDT)
 >From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >Subject: Re: Does Mars Have A Blue Sky?
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >One of John Auchettl's original questions involved the blue of
 >the Mars limb as showed in the Hubble picture. This limb can be
 >blue, just as the Earth's limb from orbit is blue, but the color
 >of the atmosphere as seen from the surface depends upon what's
 >happening lower down.


What's happening lower down in turn depends on wind speed,
atmospheric density, and dust particle size. Mars' atmospheric
pressure at the surface is about 1% Earth's. The dust storms on
Mars big enough to be visible from Earth are caused by winds
with speeds on the order of 300 miles per hour. But because of
the low density of the atmosphere, their kinetic energy is
equivalent to that of winds on Earth blowing at 45 MPH. Unless
the dust particles in the Martian atmosphere are of microscopic
size, it seems unlikely that light breezes could loft enough
dust to appreciably alter the color of the sky. The dust
particles in Mars' atmosphere are, in fact, thought to be of
extremely small size. However, their presence apparently is an
inference from the color of the sky in the Viking lander photos
and so does not independently support the validity of the
red-sky pictures.

 >>>I think that the promotion of this idea by two Mars Face
 >>>proponents tells us a lot.

 ><snip>

 >>Actually, the argument that Mars' sky is
 >>blue is "promoted" (to use your buzz word) by Gil Levin,
 >>principal investigator of the Viking labeled release biology
 >>experiments on the Viking landers and his son Ron, professor of
 >>physics at MIT and the person who gave the first-hand account of
 >>how the first Viking image was altered. Neither one is a "Mars
 >>Face proponent."

 >No, I was referring to Vincent Di Pietro and Gregory Molinaar,
 >who were mentioned in the "Sightings" article.

Gregory Molinaar, as far as I know, has never publicly commented
on the alleged problem with the Viking lander images.

 >This seems to be
 >just more of the same - NASA has faked the pictures for 24 years
 >- stufff.

If you mean more of the same "stufff" from JPL, then I agree,
although "fake" might be too harsh a characterization of the
alleged color tweaking. They've done much worse than that in the
past 25 years.

 >We'll never know why Thomas Mutch was both excited and
 >chagrined on the same day, these many years ago.

No, but when someone makes conflicting statements, it makes
their explanations dubious. I also don't believe he could have
found the red sky so "disquieting" that he would fiddle with the
color. Why would a red sky on Mars have that effect?  I never
found the color of the sky in Viking images disturbing, and I
have never heard of anyone else who did, either. Actually, I
always thought the red sky was very appropriate for the Red
Planet.

What seemed to upset the news media at the time was not so much
that the sky turned out to be red when they wanted it to be
blue, but that JPL changed the sky from one color to another. I
don't buy Sagan's "Earth chauvinism" theory. This all happened
in 1976, the post-Watergate time period, and the news media was
less docile than it is now. They tended to be more skeptical
when government officials changed their stories.

 >Mutch met a
 >tragic death on Everest (I assume that this is the case when he
 >went missing. I have never subscribed to _that_ conspiracy
 >theory: that he was snatched away by aliens because he knew the
 >truth about Mars. As far as I know, you have never subscribed to
 >that one, either.)

I've never heard of it before. It's too silly for comment. Why
do you bring it up?


 >Sorry, Lan, none of this was meant to be taken personaly. But a
 >conspiracy theory pushed for a quarter century by two people
 >possibly is of interest if, twenty four years later, the same
 >people come up with another conspiracy theory alleging that the
 >same people did something similar at the same time in the same
 >place.

Seeing the liberal use of the "conspiracy theory" buzz word is
inevitable, I suppose, whenever the question of possibly dubious
activities by government agencies is involved. Wait until George
Bush and Al Gore start slinging conspiracy theories at each
other. Then they'll probably accuse each other of being
conspiracy theorists, too. No political crime is worse than
being a conspiracy theorist, apparently. But this is totally
irrelevant.  I've already pointed out that Gil and Ron Levin are
responsible for the recent publicizing of alleged alterations of
the Viking images, not DiPietro, who was only commenting on what
the Levins have been saying. If you want to attack a Principal
Investigator on the Viking program in question as a conspiracy
theorist, then go ahead, but at least attack the right person.

 >Maybe you should take Vicent DiPietro's advice as outlined in
 >his communication included in your report and try to get Ken
 >Starr to investigate the "water gyser" in Solic Lacus. Be sure
 >to ask him to get some expert opinion on how water can exist at
 >an atmospheric pressure of 9 millibars, or even a twice that in
 >the deep crater there.

Water geysers could easily be possible on a planet with no
atmosphere at all if the water exists in subterranean pockets
that are sealed off from the surface until the eruption occurs.
In fact, there was evidence of such an event on the Earth's moon
from detectors at two Apollo landing sites 100 miles apart. The
PI estimated that several thousand tons of vapor were released,
although he later retracted that conclusion in a curious paper
in which he mentioned a detection at only one of the two landing
sites. That allowed him to shoehorn the data into the prevailing
"dry moon" view by attributing the event to the rupture of a
water tank on the Apollo descent module at one of the sites. The
simultaneous detection at the other landing site was
inconvenient, since the detectors were not sensitive enough to
detect a 500kg release of water a hundred miles away. This
seemed unprincipled to me, but after seeing what they did to Gil
Levin for his stubborn refusal to recant his conclusion that his
experiment detected life on Mars, I guess I can't blame him.

While not relevant to the question of geysers, it's still of
interest to note that Gil Levin has concluded that it is, in
fact, possible for liquid water to exist on the surface of Mars.
Temperature measurements made by Pathfinder showed that the air
near the surface can at times be much warmer than air a few feet
above. Warm air hold much more water vapor than than cold air,
so the vapor could become concentrated in the thin layer just
above the surface. If the air in this thin layer becomes
saturated with vapor, small quantities  of liquid water would
then condense from it. Not nearly enough to form a lake or even
a puddle, but perhaps enough to sustain microbes living on or
just below the surface.

 >Sorry, Lan, nothing personal, but I have to admit that I made up
 >my mind about the Face on Mars-JPL picture conspiracy long ago.
 >Even before I had seen DiPietro claim on Bob Barry's old TV show
 >that the dust devils imaged on Mars were water spouts, I had
 >concluded that it's probably nonsense. I figured then that these
 >guys wouldn't know how to tell dust from water anyway.

How would _you_ tell the difference between dust and water?
Again, you're attacking the wrong person. Dr. Leonard Martin at
Lowell Observatory is the one who first proposed that some of
the Viking images showed eruptions, possibly of water. Martin
argued that a radical change in shape of the shadow in two
consecutive Viking frames taken only 4.5 seconds apart was
characteristic of an eruption event. There is no evidence of the
sort of tracks made by dust devils in these images, which are of
sufficiently high resolution (12 meters) that such tracks should
probably have been evident. You keep dumping on Vince DiPietro
presumably because he's an advocate of the hated Cydonia
hypothesis, but the targets of your ire should really be the
scientists responsible for making the various "wild" claims.







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   Apr > Apr 30

                      Re: Earth Chauvinism - Carl Sagan

From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 12:36:03 -0400 (EDT)
Fwd Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 12:51:26 -0400
Subject: Re: Earth Chauvinism - Carl Sagan


 >From: John W. Auchettl <Praufo@aol.com>
 >Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 11:49:09 -0400 (EDT)
 >Fwd Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 16:05:23 -0400
 >Subject: Earth Chauvinism - Carl Sagan

<snip>

 >Web page for On The Surface:

 >http://www.hq.nasa.gov/office/pao/History/SP-4212/ch11-4.html

Thanks, John, for this info.

Clear skies,

Bob Young







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                       Re: Does Mars Have A Blue Sky?

From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 13:11:18 -0400 (EDT)
Fwd Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 14:27:08 -0400
Subject: Re: Does Mars Have A Blue Sky?


 >From: Lan Fleming <apollo18@swbell.net>
 >Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 09:54:56 -0600
 >Fwd Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 11:58:01 -0400
 >Subject: Re: Does Mars Have A Blue Sky?

<snip>

 >How would _you_ tell the difference between dust and water?

Lan, and anybody else still interested:

1) Color. Airborne dust scatters and reflects blue light,
resulting in red sunsets. Blue light scatters more, resulting in
a blue sky in directions away from the Sun. Red dust clouds are
seen on the surface of Mars from Earth in small telescopes with
my own eyes, blue limb haze is seen high up around the limb of
Mars with my own eyes. There are lots of pictures, too.

2) Atmospheric pressure. Shadows thrown by half-mile high clouds
of some kind are far more likely to be due to dust devils than
to water spouts, with an atmospheric pressure of only 9
millibars, where liquid water can't exist. I once saw nine dust
devils simultaneously out in the Sonora Desert from the top of
Kitt Peak, Arizona. I had read about this someplace and when I
saw these I noticed how much it resembled the famous "water
spout" pixs.

 >Again, you're attacking the wrong person. Dr. Leonard Martin at
 >Lowell Observatory is the one who first proposed that some of
 >the Viking images showed eruptions, possibly of water. Martin
 >argued that a radical change in shape of the shadow in two
 >consecutive Viking frames taken only 4.5 seconds apart was
 >characteristic of an eruption event. There is no evidence of the
 >sort of tracks made by dust devils in these images, which are of
 >sufficiently high resolution (12 meters) that such tracks should
 >probably have been evident. You keep dumping on Vince DiPietro
 >presumably because he's an advocate of the hated Cydonia
 >hypothesis, but the targets of your ire should really be the
 >scientists responsible for making the various "wild" claims

Does Martin still subscribe to the water spout theory? DiPietro
still, twenty years later, thinks it ought to be investigated by
Ken Starr. And since you published his statement, I commented on
it.

Clear skies,

Bob Young






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   Apr > Apr 30

                               Re: Greek Sense

From: John W. Auchettl <Praufo@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 13:25:46 -0400 (EDT)
Fwd Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 14:31:30 -0400
Subject: Re: Greek Sense


 >Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 15:38:22 -0500 (CDT)
 >From: Brian Cuthbertson <brianc@fc.net>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>
 >Subject: Greek Sense


 >An interesting quote, found scribbled in an old 1973
 >diary of mine, back when I was in physics at the
 >University of Texas:

 >"To consider the earth as the only populated
 >world in infinite space is as absurd as to
 >assert that in an entire field of grain
 >sown with millet, only one grain will grow."

 >- Metrodoros
 >4th Century B.C.

 >Anyone know a way on the web to verify such quotes?
 >I did a quick search engine check, but not much luck.
 >Just curious,


Hi Brian,

What a good observation. He did say that!

Nearly got it right just change the spelling. This wonderful
literature, and minds at work. I wish more people read
philosophy.

Try This:

"Metrodorus"
Can be called "Metrodorus of Lampsacus"

An Epicurean philosopher. He was an important allegorist in the
late 5th century BC. A very smart Epicurean philosopher who
studied 'Homer'. Also well known for his description -
"bebiotai" Trans: "I have lived".

He did argued that:

    "..to consider the Earth the only populated world in infinite
    space is as absurd as to assert that in an entire field sown
    with millet, only one grain will grow."

Not bad for that time! Vision.

Try and find - ISBN 0824069153 - Text in Greek;
An introductory matter and commentary in Latin - Reprint.

I hope this helps.

Regards

John W. Auchettl - Director PRA Research


Phenomena Research Australia [PRA]
P.O. Box 523, Mulgrave, Victoria, Australia, 3170
Australian & Asia UFO
1961-2000 - 39 YEARS OF RESEARCH SERVICE








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                            Re: Vehicle Shutdown?

From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@rocler.qc.ca>
Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 13:52:54 -0700
Fwd Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 14:33:22 -0400
Subject: Re: Vehicle Shutdown?


From: "UFO UpDates - Toronto" <updates@sympatico.ca>
To: <02 - UFO UpDates Subscribers :;>
Sent: Saturday, April 29, 2000 19:26 Fragment
Subject: UFO UpDate: Re: Vehicle Shutdown?

 >Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 17:34:42 -0400 (EDT)
 >From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@aol.com>
 >Subject: Re: Vehicle Shutdown?
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

<snip>

 >>How does this happen? Has anyone asked if the engine started
 >>without the engagement of the ignition switch? It just started
 >>running again by itself? Has anyone heard of the engine starter
 >>being used with or without the aid of the victim? Has anyone
 >>specifically asked this question?

 >It's easier to answer to how the engines might stop. 2 or 3
 >years ago, the Air Force Scientific Advisory Board published a
 >sort of vision statement on the Web of the 21st century AF. This
 >included mention of a high-energy microwave weapon that they
 >planned to mount on planes that could stop internal combusion
 >engines. The plan was to stop vehicles in their tracks so it was
 >easier to bomb them. Your tax dollars at work.

 >The weapon was also reported capable of knocking out
 >instrumentation on other aircraft.

 >It struck me that there would have been no mention of such a
 >weapon unless it had already been tested and they knew it
 >worked. I suppose it is quite possible that this weapon was
 >developed without knowledge of UFO sightings where engines were
 >stopped or where aircraft instrumentation was disrupted, but I
 >doubt it. Rather I think the Air Force took careful notes and
 >set out to retro-engineer the effects. Apparently only 40 years
 >later they have been successful

Hello David, Jim and List,

At: http://www.ncjrs.org/txtfiles/sl298.txt

Excerpt:

Title: Evaluation of Vehicle Stopping Electromagnetic Prototype Devices.
Phase III - Engineering Field Testing
Series: NIJ Solicitation
Author: NIJ
Published: July 1998
Subject: Technology in law enforcement, vehicles
15 pages
29,000 bytes

[...]

Applicable Types of Devices

NIJ is seeking three different types of EM devices to be
submitted to Phase III testing. The first are electrostatic
discharge (ESD) devices, which produce a rapid, high-voltage
transfer of charge to a targeted vehicle upon direct physical
contact with the vehicle. The second type are non-nuclear,
ultra-wide band electromagnetic pulse (EMP) projected energy
devices that radiate a solitary pulse of energy
omni-directionally through the atmosphere to a distant target
vehicle. The third type are high-power microwave (HPM) or radio
frequency (RF) projected energy devices that radiate continuous
or repetitive- pulsed energy directionally through the
atmosphere to a distant targeted vehicle.


End of Excerpt

I've seen this done a year or two ago on a Discovery Channel
program. I guess the technology presented then was EMP.  It was
very effective but expensive.

<snip>

 >Sometimes associated with reports of engine stoppages are
 >witness reports of feeling a "wave of heat" from the UFO.
 >Something like heat rashes are also sometimes reported. These
 >physiological effects are also what one would expect from a high
 >energy microwave beam. No doubt the Air Force made a note of
 >that as well.

 >The fact that it is relatively easily to retro-engineer engine
 >stoppages, instrumentation interference, and physiological heat
 >effects also reported in UFO cases I consider to be one of the
 >stronger pieces of evidence that UFOs are physically real craft
 >and the Air Force knows it. The effects seem tied to the
 >emission of high-energy microwaves from UFOs.

High-power microwave technology seems to fit the bill.

<snip>

 >Physicist/engineer James McCampbell has long postulated that
 >these microwave emissions are important clues to the physics
 >underlying the flight of UFOs. Among other things, they also
 >could be tied to the ionization of air with associated electric
 >glows surrounding the objects, and their supersonic flight sans
 >sonic boom.

Microwaves could also explain the Fatima phenomenon:

"The disc stopped short and began slowly rising into the sky in
the same irregular way, disappearing into the sun, which stood
once again fixed in its natural brilliance. The entire display
lasted less than fifteen minutes. No less amazing was this fact,
confirmed by the managing editor of Lisbon's largest daily
newspaper: the streets and clothes of thousands of witnesses
were no longer wet, even though heavy rains had fallen within
the hour. Throughout the countryside, strange healings were
reported.

(http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/AndyPage/fatima.htm)

As for "strange healings", microwaves are actually being used in
therapies involving muscle pain.

Microwaves are widely used today in Medical Imaging.  They are
at the core of the famous _wireless_ computer technology, GPS,
personal communications and high-speed satellite communications.

Microwaves are advanced technology.

The "microwave oven" principle was discovered by accident in
1946 buy people who had been working on microwaves and radar
detection since the early 40s.

<snip>

 >McCampbell also postulated engine restarting due to some pistons
 >still being under compression at the time of stoppage. But I
 >don't see how this theory would explain why the engine would
 >suddenly 'decide' to crank over with the remaining compression
 >only when the UFO left. I've also hand-cranked engines to
 >maximum compression while tuning them and they don't start on
 >their own when released.

If you hand-crank an engine with the ignition key on will the
engine will start? A standard transmission engine will start
with a dead battery if you can have someone push your vehicle
(up to 20 miles per hour).

Regards,

Serge Salvaille







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                            Re: Vehicle Shutdown?

From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 13:57:20 -0400 (EDT)
Fwd Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 14:35:33 -0400
Subject: Re: Vehicle Shutdown?


 >Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 21:13:08 -0700 (PDT)
 >From: Mac Tonnies <macbot@yahoo.com>
 >Subject: Re: Vehicle Shutdown?
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@sympatico.ca>

 >>Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 17:34:42 -0400 (EDT)
 >>From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@aol.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Vehicle Shutdown?
 >>To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >>>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >>>Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 01:31:29 -0400 (EDT)
 >>>Fwd Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 07:40:59 -0400
 >>>Subject: Vehicle Shutdown?

 ><snip>

 >>The fact that it is relatively easily to retro-engineer engine
 >>stoppages, instrumentation interference, and physiological
 >>heat effects also reported in UFO cases I consider to be one
 >>of the stronger pieces of evidence that UFOs are physically
 >>real craft and the Air Force knows it.

 ><snip>

 >Mark Davenport adds an interesting slant to this phenomenon in
 >his book, 'Visitors from Time'. He purports that the energy
 >needed to jam a car's ignition would be sufficient to render it
 >useless. The problem as he sees it are all of the reports of car
 >ignitions coming right back on after the UFO has left the scene.

 >Davenport theorizes that UFOs are surrounded by gravity/time
 >distortion fields and that vehicle shutdown is caused not by
 >some exotic energy, but rather the slow-down of electrons in the
 >car's ignition system as it becomes part of the UFO's
 >gravitational field. When the UFO leaves, time becomes 'normal'
 >again and the car starts up with no damage.

 >My apologies if this idea has already been brought up.


Hi Mac, EBK and Listers;

This idea had not been brought up. But yet no one has commented
on the thinking that time/space has been affected by the UFO
phenom. This was what I proposed in the last message to this
thread which I sent. It was based on the effects which many,
including myself, have encountered during an incident. Among
these, a lack of sound or at least, a change in the way sound is
perceived, electronic effects such as engines and lights
shutting down and a general change in the way time is felt. This
"high strangeness," as I refer to it, and lots more, is felt by
the percipient.

The idea is presented, that perhaps the percipients are involved
in a different time/space or dimension. Not being a physicist,
I cannot differentiate between the two. However I am sure you
get the message. I still get the feeling, having had these
experiences myself, that such is the case. But what do I know?
I am just a regular Joe without any portfolio. Prince among
men, but when you ain't got no portfolio, you ain't nuttin in
dis woild. It may be time to return to the days of your...yore,
whateva.

Jim








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                            Re: Vehicle Shutdown?

From: Jenny Randles <nufon@currantbun.com>
Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 17:51:32 +0100
Fwd Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 16:46:02 -0400
Subject: Re: Vehicle Shutdown?


 >Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 01:31:29 -0400 (EDT)
 >From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >Subject: Vehicle Shutdown?
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >When someone in his or her car has an experience, the engine
 >invariably shuts down, lights go out, radios (transmit and/or
 >receivers) shut down.  Invariably they come back on after the
 >event is over.  I've read that the " ... engine suddenly starts
 >back up ..."

 >How does this happen?  Has anyone asked if the engine started
 >without the engagement of the ignition switch?  It just started
 >running again by itself?  Has anyone heard of the engine starter
 >being used with or without the aid of the victim?  Has anyone
 >specifically asked this question?


Hi,

Yes. In fact I have certainly always asked witnesses if the car
restarted on its own as it is crucial to understanding the
physical energies involved. Clearly, IMO, these cases point
towards a physically real phenomenon not imagination or fantasy
at work. Thats why I have been so interested in them during
recent years.

In only a couple of the car stop cases I have studied have the
witnesses insisted that they tried the starter and it failed
several times, but after the UFO departed the engine and lights
returned to life without any action being taken by the driver.
Most often it starts on the first attempt to turn the engine
over after the departure of the UFO. In other words - normally -
but after a spell of inhibition.

There have been experiments in some UK cases to try to duplicate
the 'magnetic signature' effects discussed in the Condon report.
In one case an unaffected sister car was magnetically mapped
alongside the car that suffered impedence during a close
encounter. There was no effect. As the magnetic field strength
required to produce car stops should alter the signature I think
we can establish this is not the primary cause of what is going
on here.

In the majority of UK car stops there is strong evidence of
ionizing radiation. It has been theorised by physicists here
that the ionic flow inside the car electrics might be
temporarily impeded. The key could be any cases where both
diesel powered snd petrol driven vehicles are in proximity. The
diesel powered vehicles tend to lose lights and electrical power
(often with circuits blown afterwards) but the engine runs
normally and does not fail as it does in the adjacent petrol
driven vehicle. If the diesel powered car is switched off by the
driver when the electrics fail it has been reported to need a
jump start (if the battery is drained as it can be).

The disappearance of ambient sounds during close encounters is
part of a pattern I have long refered to as the 'Oz Factor' and
it has two possible causes. To some extent it results from
inward focusing of consciousness - a sort of grand scale effect
like blocking out the ticking clock and only attending to
relevant information in our background awareness.

More interesting to my current research is the possible link
with gravity and space/time distortions in close proximity to
glowing energy clouds. There is a vast array of data I have put
together on this and it seems to fall together very well.

I am publishing a book on this in a short while (its called
'Time Storms')

In this I argue, rather as someone on this list speculated, that
there is a energy phenomenon in the atmosphere that creates
localised disruptions in the space/time continuum and it
produces a series of highly predictable results (physical,
physiological, psychological and environmental) that are
extraordinarily well supported by the evidence I have been
piecing together.

I have accumulated a data base of over 150 cases - many first
hand studies included - that seem to fit the pattern identified.
 From the cummulative analysis of these sdet out in the book I
make a series of arguments - some of which I think we can put
forward as endorsed by the evidence and others of which are
reasoned speculation (all be it rather extraordinary at times).

A lot of curious side effects of these cases (for instance what
I call 'reality blinks' - where there are small changes to the
witnesses relatity in the immediate aftermath of the event)
started to make sense to me when looked at this way.

I should stress that the book is not about UFOs, as such. Indeed
its more directed as a book about the nature of time and
physics. But it does have undoubted relevance to UFOs, as I saw
early on during this research.

The arguments I set out from the data are too complex to
summarise properly here because you need to see the many cases
that they rely upon to see why I have reached them. But as and
when you read the book and see it unfold through the case
histories and a logical progression of the evidence, the
statistics and the physics of space time I hope you will see why
it has got me rather excited.

I'm not suggesting it is the answer ti everything - or indeed
the answer to anything. But its not often you see apparently
disparate ideas, pieces of evidence and cases from many
different disciplines (of which ufology is merely one) slot so
well into a seemingly logical whole.

I will leave it to you all to determine what - if any -
relevance my concept of time storms has for UFOs and / or alien
intervention. Its not a topic I move into in my book as that is
devoted simply to proving that there is a consistent phenomenon
here. Where we take it once that is accepted is open for
discussion.

Best wishes,

Jenny Randles









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   Apr > Apr 30

                       Re: Does Mars Have A Blue Sky?

From: Larry Hatch <larryhat@jps.net>
Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 11:45:46 -0700
Fwd Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 16:48:45 -0400
Subject: Re: Does Mars Have A Blue Sky?


 >Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 13:11:18 -0400 (EDT)
 >From: Bob Young <YoungBob2@aol.com>
 >Subject: Does Mars Have A Blue Sky?
 >To: updates@sympatico.ca

 >>From: Lan Fleming <apollo18@swbell.net>
 >>Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 09:54:56 -0600
 >>Fwd Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 11:58:01 -0400
 >>Subject: Re: Does Mars Have A Blue Sky?

<snip>

Can you guys please stop alla this stuff, and answer a
simple question?

Lets say a regular person from Planet Earth goes to Mars.

He looks up in the sky.

What goddamn color does he see?

Is that such a complicated matter?

Why are we arguing? What goddamn color of sky does this poor
fool see before he runs out of air or water?

I will allow two answers:

1)  During a sand/wind storm   - and -

2)  Not.

All else seems like crap.


Very best wishes

- Larry Hatch